From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb  1 01:47:09 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:47:09 +0100
Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU
In-Reply-To: <000301d15c9b$1981fa90$4c85efb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org>
 <000301d15c9b$1981fa90$4c85efb0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20160201074709.GA26168@Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:48:57PM -0600, Jay West wrote:
> 
> Very surprised no one took any guesses at what PDP-11 boxes were in those
> pictures.

:-) I was about to, but realised that I had very little to add.

Just that the green color indicates "lab" equipment, which would mean 
A/D converters and possibly custom made equipment.

> 
> But in any case, a listmember has stepped forward to go investigate onsite
> and perhaps claim them.

I hope (s)he reports back.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb  1 01:49:54 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:49:54 +0100
Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com>
References: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE>
 <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <20160201074954.GB26168@Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 06:51:52PM -0000, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> What kind of VAX 4000? Not that I am likely to make the trip, unfortunately
> :-(

A 4000/300, the first 4000 QBus machine I believe. And the only one that 
doesn't have a separate memory bus.

(I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong though :)

/P

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 02:10:53 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 01:10:53 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option
In-Reply-To: <20160201052443.GA23100@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT8X6vyvfdj5-nqGyXc+fqVz9EKuB1jxAGRCUM-yLN5KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB112-DS349DDE2F9D218488E11A3586DC0@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTS5z3iLDZ=vaXBgewoHEHj0vTpchPBE+vxm4Ejex3BJxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160131183857.GA17231@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAFrGgTT-P2CkLJnPGR-AXfoKTG=Vgjqu6jVdWBVG2p7SqkKyqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160201052443.GA23100@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRZ3vZptW=RXZAtXY6+NXNNuxO8fgrouFrLH3SBDPHAaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 10:24 PM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
>>I'd really like to get the F11 base instruction set control (part of
>>the DCF11 hybrid) and the KEF11-B CIS (six chip hybrid spanning two
>>40-pin DIP sockets) to be dumped in this way, but only if someone is
>>willing to sacrifice them. Given that the KEF11-B is fairly uncommon,
>>I'm not holding my breath...
>
> I'd certainly want to see something mostly just like it successfully
> read, before offering mine up to be next in line.  But, the beauty of
> computers is doing useful work, not hanging on the wall and being
> pretty ... so I feel like the "museum piece" mindset can easily be
> taken too far.

The MCP1600 chipset used in the LSI-11, WD16 (Alpha Micro AM100), and
WD9000 Pascal Microengine uses microcode ROMs that really are just
ROMs, so I was able to read them electrically. The trick with those is
that the control chip (CP1621 for LSI-11, CP1661 for WD16, CP2161 for
Pascal Microengine) contain two PLAs that can cause microcode jumps
based on the current microPC and the contents of the interrupt and
translation registers. The contents of the microcode ROMs themselves
are thus quite difficult to interpret without having the contents of
the PLAs.

John McMaster took photomicrographs of the CP2161 and stitched them together:
    https://siliconpr0n.org/map/wd/cp2161/mz_mit20x/
I was able to successfully extract the contents of the translation
PLAs by inspection:

I processed the PLA dumps with Python scripts into two forms, one
somewhat suitable to be human-readable, and one useful as input to a
simulator:
    http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/wd/microengine/microcode/

I used the former to annotate my microcode disasssembly, and put the
latter and the microcode ROM dumps into a simulator which has now
successfully executed the first 30 macroinstructions (UCSD p-code
instructions) from a PDQ-3 boot ROM.

A CP1621 control chip from an LSI-11 has been provided to John, and
once he has a stitched photomicrograph of that, I'll do the same with
it.  I've already disassembled the LSI-11 microcode (base, and KEV11-A
EIS/FIS), so I should be able to make progress on that quickly once
the control PLAs are extracted. I plan to simulate it as well.

Obviously I'd want to do the delid and photomicrograph of the F11 base
instruction set control chip, which is nowhere near as rare, and
verify that the contents can be extracted and make sense, before doing
the same to the KEF11-B.  I don't have any 11/23 (or 11/24) modules on
hand, or I'd be happy to sacrifice a DCF11 to do that.  If anyone
would care to sacrifice one...

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb  1 02:14:43 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 00:14:43 -0800
Subject: Looking for Solaris 8 patches
In-Reply-To: <27B6A805-9397-4083-9CA8-B90FCB71DC9A@nf6x.net>
References: <27B6A805-9397-4083-9CA8-B90FCB71DC9A@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <6484AB51-560F-4B30-99FE-3C6F026E810D@nf6x.net>

I have been sent the patches that I needed, and I have Firefox 2 running on my Ultra 60 under Solaris 8 now. Thanks!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From useddec at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 02:55:34 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 02:55:34 -0600
Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU
In-Reply-To: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuND_bMTuvvg_AowW4p9X6=eH8+1_P4wiDW0hEbCcSDNxw@mail.gmail.com>

I recognized a few things when you posted the pics, bet can't remember what
they are. I will look at some reference material this week.

I do know they aren't DEC racks.

Should be great!

Paul


On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> DEC Gear available. Unlike most dec gear, I must admit that I can't
> identify
> exactly what this is. Several racks, I was guessing AFT or Instrumentation
> Testing. Looks like one or more cpu or expansion cabinets in some of the
> racks, and some DEC AD/DA interface stuff. I was left with the impression
> that there may be one or more racks that are not shown in the pictures
> provided. I was told that racks are in "several different buildings on the
> estate" (residential). The first rack looks to be in very bad shape
> (perhaps
> a power supply), but the other racks don't look so bad.
>
> I am not sure that I can get more pictures from the owner, but will try. I
> think that in order to get pictures of the fronts (what we all probably
> want
> to see), the owner would have to move stuff (and them) and would rather
> not.
> The equipment is located in NSW, Australia. It sound like they just want it
> to go to a good home.
>
> If someone is local to NSW Australia and wants to spearhead going onsite to
> take a closer look for others and/or pick up the gear themselves, let me
> know offlist and I'll give you the contact info.
>
> To those on the list that aren't down under - any ideas what this is?
>
> Pics are temporarily at http://www.ezwind.net/nsw-au
>
> Best,
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>

From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de  Mon Feb  1 07:07:05 2016
From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:07:05 +0100
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
Message-ID: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>

While I was reading through the HP 200/300 BASIC Manual I came across some
interesting points I hadn't considered in the past.

I thought HP manuals were dry and hard to read, but I was wrong. See for
yourself...


Installing, Using, and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System
=============================================
Loading BASIC, page 1-16
-------------------------------
If You See Nothing on the Monitor Screen
Here are some possible explanations:
- The monitor's brightness is not turned all the way up.
- The monitor is not plugged in.
- The computer is not plugged in.
- Your eyes are not pointed in the right direction, or are obscured by your
eyelids.


Other Maintenance Tasks, page 17-1
--------------------------------------------
The following list mentions some things users take for granted or tend to
forget.
...
- ...
- ...
- Rotate your tires and otherwise examine your system to see that it is
performing nicely.


Maybe the author had a good friend in final quality control of the manuals.

Martin



From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 07:33:37 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:33:37 +0100
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
Message-ID: <CABr82SJVs3Qg2QVk0HZCQTw4MsEJXGDKRvcHpvDe89+ARQ3TbA@mail.gmail.com>

While browsing various 8 inch floppies I have found a couple of disks that
seems to contain ISIS-II stuff.

I discovered a document specifying the format of the disk and managed to
extract the contents:

Disk1:
arbetsrumsdatorn:ISIS mattis_lind$ ls UNKN2
ATTRIB DSPERR ICE80.OV1 ISIS.LAB PLM80.OV0 PLMCOD.CSD
COPY EDIT ICE80.OV2 ISIS.MAP PLM80.OV1 PLMNOC.CSD
DELETE FORMAT ISIS.BIN ISIS.T0 PLM80.OV2 RENAME
DIR ICE80 ISIS.CLI PLM80 PLM80.OV3 SUBMIT
DSP ICE80.OV0 ISIS.DIR PLM80.LIB PLM80.OV4 SYSTEM.LIB

Disk2:
arbetsrumsdatorn:ISIS mattis_lind$ ls DISK2
ALIAS DEBUG EXEC LINK RELEAS TTY
ALLOC DELETE FORMAT MDUP REMAP TXT
ANALYZ DGEN FRAPP MEMDMP RENAME TXW
ASM DIR HEXBIN MOVE RESCUE XREF
ASSIGN DIRPAC INIT MYLOAD SEDIT
ATTRIB DROP ISIS.DIR O SYS
DCONVA DRSTC ISIS.ERR PAGE SYSTEM
DCOPY EDIT ISIS.LAB PROM T2
DDUMC ETX ISIS.MAP RASM TPGEN

If someone is interested in these I put them here:
http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/isis-ii-floppy-disks

There were also a DSDD format on some disks which seemed a little bit
different. The ISIS.DIR used 32 byte entries rather than 16 byte entries
and the directory linkage block structure seemed to be different. I didn't
spend any time other than recognize the difference.

Is there any documentation that specify the various ISIS disk formats there
is?

/Mattis

From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Feb  1 10:22:21 2016
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:22:21 -0700
Subject: BA23 fan noise
In-Reply-To: <56AED095.2090002@pico-systems.com>
References: <20160201024259.GA21090@allie.home.misty.com>
 <56AED095.2090002@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfq2iak00znkJkZC9GXGHu3uLwpcvvVcd68Z85ybjoU_dw@mail.gmail.com>

In general with fans, there's two things that make them loud. 1 is the
size. All you can do about that is to get a smaller fan that can turn more
slowly. 2nd is some kind of lube problem. Sometimes you can fix these with
proper lubrication. Others, you have to replace the fan.

You really want to move the same amount of air through the system. Smaller
fans have to spin faster to move the same volume of air through the system,
and will be much louder. Larger fans can spin more slowly, while still
supplying the right amount of air.

With the BA23 cabinet, your options may be limited as to what you can do
w/o modifications to sheet metal to accommodate larger fans.

Less air flow is risky business for this old gear that has fewer heat sinks
on the parts, relying on the air flow to carry the heat away.

Warner

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 01/31/2016 08:42 PM, Mark G. Thomas wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions for figuring out how much airflow I
>> actually need, and achieving it with either stock fans at further reduced
>> voltage, or some kind of replacements? I don't need an accurate solution,
>> or something with complicated compensation for varying temperature,
>> just something quieter, moving less air, but still enough air.
>>
>>
>> I may have cooked some peripheral boards in my homebrew uVAX cabinet.
> The KA630 seems pretty robust, it ran for 21 years continuously under these
> conditions.  I got an EBM motorized impeller and made up my own plenum.
> The AC motor ran it WAY too fast, so I cobbled an 8" floppy brushless motor
> onto the original impeller, and I could adjust the speed.  My main test was
> to let it run an hour and see if the air coming out seemed too warm.  This
> was pretty unscientific.  The only boards that croaked were Dilog and such
> 3rd party boards.  I did have a thermal safety system that would cut power
> if the cooling failed (which it never did).  I later got a tangential
> blower for the expansion backplane, and it was a good deal quieter, but
> maybe didn't move enough air.
>
> Jon
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 10:34:21 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:34:21 -0800
Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <20160201074954.GB26168@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE>
 <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com>
 <20160201074954.GB26168@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+3_AexQfU980GJCCFCKpyhGjTsrv1Xo=82gfJkBDsAvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
> A 4000/300, the first 4000 QBus machine I believe. And the only one that
> doesn't have a separate memory bus.
>
> (I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong though :)

Not that it really matters, but the M7626 / KA660 / 4000-200 was the
only modular VAX 4000 series CPU that plugged directly into a regular
Q22/CD QBus slot, for example in a BA215 or BA430 chassis.

All of the other modular VAX 4000 series CPUs plugged into a dedicated
CPU slot in a BA440 (or BA441 rack mount version) chassis.
L4000-BA / KA670 / 4000-300
L4002-CA / KA675 / 4000-400
L4002-BA / KA680 / 4000-500
L4005-BA / KA681 / 4000-500A
L4002-AA / KA690 / 4000-600
L4005-AA / KA691 / 4000-600A
L4006-AA / KA692 / 4000-700A
L4006-BA / KA694 / 4000-705A

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  1 10:51:20 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:51:20 +0000
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> I thought HP manuals were dry and hard to read, but I was wrong. See for
> yourself...

I've found more jokes in technical/service manuals.

Take a look at the HP1311B XY display manual, the EHT power supply section : 
page 151 of the pdf on hpmuseum.net. 

-tony

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  1 10:55:43 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 17:55:43 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9Fpa7JCfjeLR79ZU75nr9DOs9BTsHomCMcvni4zx78_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT8X6vyvfdj5-nqGyXc+fqVz9EKuB1jxAGRCUM-yLN5KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB112-DS349DDE2F9D218488E11A3586DC0@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTS5z3iLDZ=vaXBgewoHEHj0vTpchPBE+vxm4Ejex3BJxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB112-DS48AEDC4BA26E8FC804295C86DD0@phx.gbl>
 <CAA-F0u9Fpa7JCfjeLR79ZU75nr9DOs9BTsHomCMcvni4zx78_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS1904A7E4B74B9AE7AAE3AA86DE0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Pete Lancashire 
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 5:22 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option 

Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
very strong box. I've actually
had EPROMs show up cracked in half

-pete

---------
Of course Pete!  I would never put the chip "as-is" in a bubble-wrap
envelop, for several reasons.
To ship ICs, I have small hard-carton boxes, stuffed inside with
conducting foam (ESD countermeasure). These boxes are quite strong.

But I guess it is no longer needed. I will take a few pics anyway,
but that will be next weekend.
-Henk

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Mon Feb  1 11:54:27 2016
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 18:54:27 +0100
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <b4f175f3fb16e64ad67c9bf37ade90b4@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net>

You, should read the article series "Liebson on IO" about the HP 98X5 IO.
And processor manual from the BPC on HP9825.NET.


-Rik

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "tony duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Verzonden: ?1-?2-?2016 17:52
Aan: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: RE: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?



> I thought HP manuals were dry and hard to read, but I was wrong. See for
> yourself...

I've found more jokes in technical/service manuals.

Take a look at the HP1311B XY display manual, the EHT power supply section : 
page 151 of the pdf on hpmuseum.net. 

-tony

From seefriek at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 12:30:10 2016
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:30:10 -0500
Subject: USPS: Re: PDP-11/03, LSI-11 KEV11-C CIS option
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjwE4gwd=Bp6Sf+GmqN9nkRP9ZcibGwyae3ZSCjFPNmf3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
>
>Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not
>gentle on parcels.
>

I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period.  In the last 6
months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or
shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web
site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before
magically showing up.  Glad it wasn't perishable.

KJ

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 12:43:40 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 10:43:40 -0800
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjwE4gwd=Bp6Sf+GmqN9nkRP9ZcibGwyae3ZSCjFPNmf3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjwE4gwd=Bp6Sf+GmqN9nkRP9ZcibGwyae3ZSCjFPNmf3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0190861-8002-4AFB-A72C-F5CE0D71426A@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a
>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
>> 
>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not
>> gentle on parcels.
>> 
> 
> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period.  In the last 6
> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or
> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web
> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before
> magically showing up.  Glad it wasn't perishable.
> 

I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers.

UPS tracking is a *joke*.  It tells you not where the package is but where
it?s supposed to be.  I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it wasn?t
until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that they realized
there was a problem.  There was not one ?physical? scan of the package
and they had no idea where it was.

TTFN - Guy


From turing at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  1 13:14:53 2016
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:14:53 -0700 (MST)
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <B0190861-8002-4AFB-A72C-F5CE0D71426A@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>

I've had even more fun with UPS - there was a big hole punched in the side of a tape library that was shipped to me, completely destroying the library. 
The hole matched the fork on a forklift truck. 
UPS insisted that the hole existed before they shipped it - until it was pointed out that the hole was right through their shipping documents. 
----- Original Message -----

From: "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:43:40 AM 
Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping 


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: 
>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a 
>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half 
>> 
>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not 
>> gentle on parcels. 
>> 
> 
> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6 
> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable. 
> 

I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers. 

UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but where 
it?s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it wasn?t 
until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that they realized 
there was a problem. There was not one ?physical? scan of the package 
and they had no idea where it was. 

TTFN - Guy 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  1 13:14:15 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 19:14:15 +0000
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <b4f175f3fb16e64ad67c9bf37ade90b4@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <b4f175f3fb16e64ad67c9bf37ade90b4@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5743@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> You, should read the article series "Liebson on IO" about the HP 98X5 IO.
> And processor manual from the BPC on HP9825.NET.

Do not forget the HP75C ROM source code... 

-tony

From classiccmp at crash.com  Mon Feb  1 13:16:31 2016
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:16:31 -0800
Subject: BA23 fan noise
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfq2iak00znkJkZC9GXGHu3uLwpcvvVcd68Z85ybjoU_dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160201024259.GA21090@allie.home.misty.com>
 <56AED095.2090002@pico-systems.com>
 <CANCZdfq2iak00znkJkZC9GXGHu3uLwpcvvVcd68Z85ybjoU_dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AFAF0F.4080708@crash.com>

On 02/01/2016 08:22, Warner Losh wrote:
> [...] All you can do about that is to get a smaller fan that can turn more
> slowly. 

If you couldn't tell from the rest of his post, Warner meant "get a
larger fan," not "smaller."

This is why main PC case fans can now be had in excess of 5" / 12cm. The
lurid neon colors are also effective at smoothing out the
noise-producing turbulence... ;)


> With the BA23 cabinet, your options may be limited as to what you can do
> w/o modifications to sheet metal to accommodate larger fans.
>
> Less air flow is risky business for this old gear that has fewer heat sinks
> on the parts, relying on the air flow to carry the heat away.

Might be interesting to grab some of the 10mm X 10mm heat sinks commonly
sold with adhesive/thermal paste on eBay and strategically place them if
they'll clear the board spacing, just to help extend the service life of
the ICs...


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 13:17:29 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:17:29 -0700
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <b4f175f3fb16e64ad67c9bf37ade90b4@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <b4f175f3fb16e64ad67c9bf37ade90b4@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSiKGuzPS8ifsViBeRxd0gn+MX-pdnS7reK2tSgvVrPQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Rik Bos <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> You, should read the article series "Liebson on IO" about the HP 98X5 IO.
> And processor manual from the BPC on HP9825.NET.

Has anyone scanned the "How They Do Dat Manual"?

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 13:20:33 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:20:33 -0800
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
References: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <80DED06D-0C16-4A32-80C4-ECF24EB55B04@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Norman Jaffe <turing at shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> I've had even more fun with UPS - there was a big hole punched in the side of a tape library that was shipped to me, completely destroying the library. 
> The hole matched the fork on a forklift truck. 
> UPS insisted that the hole existed before they shipped it - until it was pointed out that the hole was right through their shipping documents. 

Yea, they?re response when I was talking to them, was ?Well just have the shipper
send another one?.  Yea, right.  It?s hard to get them to appreciate that some of this
stuff *is no longer manufactured*.  I guess the only other way is to put such a high
value on it (with insurance) that they sit up and take notice if it goes missing.

TTFN - Guy


> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> From: "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
> Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:43:40 AM 
> Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: 
>>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a 
>>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half 
>>> 
>>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not 
>>> gentle on parcels. 
>>> 
>> 
>> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6 
>> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
>> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
>> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
>> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable. 
>> 
> 
> I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers. 
> 
> UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but where 
> it?s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it wasn?t 
> until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that they realized 
> there was a problem. There was not one ?physical? scan of the package 
> and they had no idea where it was. 
> 
> TTFN - Guy 
> 
> 


From sellam at vintagetech.com  Mon Feb  1 12:33:12 2016
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 10:33:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Vintage Computer Collectors - TV Special Inquiry  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1602011029470.9518@vintagetech.com>


Does anyone want to have their children exploited for profit and 
entertainment?

"I'm currently Producing a show for TLC that features children who have a 
passion for collecting. I was wondering if you know any kids who have a 
sizable collection of vintage computers? If you can think of anyone who 
would be interested in appearing on our show, I would greatly appreciate 
it if you could connect me with their parents to discuss the show 
further."

If anyone is interested e-mail me privately and I'll give you all the 
contact details for this producer.

--

Sellam Abraham                                                     VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  1 14:16:33 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:16:33 -0800
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <80DED06D-0C16-4A32-80C4-ECF24EB55B04@shiresoft.com>
References: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
 <80DED06D-0C16-4A32-80C4-ECF24EB55B04@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01mOYgh5qh2V_ALshYVhD2q9bkXAMTREj5AiY_PeOq8tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 1, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Norman Jaffe <turing at shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > I've had even more fun with UPS - there was a big hole punched in the
> side of a tape library that was shipped to me, completely destroying the
> library.
> > The hole matched the fork on a forklift truck.
> > UPS insisted that the hole existed before they shipped it - until it was
> pointed out that the hole was right through their shipping documents.
>
> Yea, they?re response when I was talking to them, was ?Well just have the
> shipper
> send another one?.  Yea, right.  It?s hard to get them to appreciate that
> some of this
> stuff *is no longer manufactured*.  I guess the only other way is to put
> such a high
> value on it (with insurance) that they sit up and take notice if it goes
> missing.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com>
> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:43:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <
> henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in
> a
> >>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
> >>>
> >>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are
> not
> >>> gentle on parcels.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6
> >> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or
> >> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web
> >> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before
> >> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable.
> >>
> >
> > I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers.
> >
> > UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but where
> > it?s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it wasn?t
> > until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that they
> realized
> > there was a problem. There was not one ?physical? scan of the package
> > and they had no idea where it was.
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
> >
>
>
Useless Parcel Service - there's a reason the trucks are brown.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  1 14:18:23 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:18:23 -0800
Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+3_AexQfU980GJCCFCKpyhGjTsrv1Xo=82gfJkBDsAvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE>
 <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com>
 <20160201074954.GB26168@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAM2UOw+3_AexQfU980GJCCFCKpyhGjTsrv1Xo=82gfJkBDsAvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00Es5=voLX35aSL7-GjPs-Kb9iuM5fdLPvgsdh07RCnGQ@mail.gmail.com>

I really like my 4000/300 - and it warms the room quite nicely.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:34 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> >
> > A 4000/300, the first 4000 QBus machine I believe. And the only one that
> > doesn't have a separate memory bus.
> >
> > (I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong though :)
>
> Not that it really matters, but the M7626 / KA660 / 4000-200 was the
> only modular VAX 4000 series CPU that plugged directly into a regular
> Q22/CD QBus slot, for example in a BA215 or BA430 chassis.
>
> All of the other modular VAX 4000 series CPUs plugged into a dedicated
> CPU slot in a BA440 (or BA441 rack mount version) chassis.
> L4000-BA / KA670 / 4000-300
> L4002-CA / KA675 / 4000-400
> L4002-BA / KA680 / 4000-500
> L4005-BA / KA681 / 4000-500A
> L4002-AA / KA690 / 4000-600
> L4005-AA / KA691 / 4000-600A
> L4006-AA / KA692 / 4000-700A
> L4006-BA / KA694 / 4000-705A
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From tingox at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 15:25:59 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 22:25:59 +0100
Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Come watch me install Linux on the IBM z890
 Mainframe!
In-Reply-To: <56AEC802.2030902@linuxha.com>
References: <56AE934A.6010102@connorsdomain.com> <56AEC802.2030902@linuxha.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtb7uQA1iQxQjWWf6+7Sk8g=HYWcgC9VYeqH9YAXLLj62A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Neil Cherry <ncherry at linuxha.com> wrote:
> On 01/31/2016 06:05 PM, Connor Krukosky via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
>>
>> Come one come all!
>> Its the day of reckoning.
>> I finally have some storage on loan from a company called Funsoft!
>> Hopefully by the end of the night I will have Linux installed and a portal
>> to the internet
>> to which people can connect and play on it!
>
>
> Dang can't watch, but do tell us how it goes. I'm interested in how it goes.
> I also hope your recorded it.

Yes - please keep us posted. BTW, does this twitch thing have a proper
video backend? (ie. not flash)


-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From james.h.simpson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 16:56:19 2016
From: james.h.simpson at gmail.com (Jim Simpson)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:56:19 -0700
Subject: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks
Message-ID: <56afe2ad.c775b60a.46ccc.ffff82f6@mx.google.com>

Thanks very much to all who posted a reply.  The BBII disk files was
something I didn't have, and the CD image had some very interesting stuff.
I did go and download the bitsaver files also.  

Thanks again!





From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:10:56 2016
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:10:56 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>

I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an emulated
system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
working system for download online.

Is there a good place to get the install media?

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 17:16:42 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:16:42 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 3:10 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an emulated
> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
> working system for download online.
> 
> Is there a good place to get the install media?

I?ve never seen a set.  It would have been released on 9-track tapes.

I used to work on AIX PS/2 which was a required companion product to AIX/370.  

Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never released on
CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now unfortunately)
and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went straight
to the ?metal?).

TTFN - Guy


From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Feb  1 17:19:57 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 23:19:57 +0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE64056@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

Do you recall which specific PS/2 hardware?  You're talking AIX 1.3 for PS/2, right?
I thought you might even be able to run it on an LX40...  There are at least reports of people getting it to run in older versions of VirtualPC.

Thanks!

-Ben

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Guy Sotomayor [ggs at shiresoft.com]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 3:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AIX for IBM system 370

> On Feb 1, 2016, at 3:10 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an emulated
> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
> working system for download online.
>
> Is there a good place to get the install media?

I?ve never seen a set.  It would have been released on 9-track tapes.

I used to work on AIX PS/2 which was a required companion product to AIX/370.

Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never released on
CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now unfortunately)
and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went straight
to the ?metal?).

TTFN - Guy


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 17:23:00 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:23:00 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE64056@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE64056@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <CCB91585-52AB-451D-B34A-74C05A8141F0@shiresoft.com>

From what I recall, microchannel PS/2?s with a 386, 486 or Pentium.  I don?t recall if it was
ever run on an ISA based PS/2.

AIX PS/2 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and it?s final release 1.3 (which at the end had quarterly updates that added
new HW support in each update?but I don?t recall how those were labelled).

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 1, 2016, at 3:19 PM, Benjamin Huntsman <BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:
> 
> Do you recall which specific PS/2 hardware?  You're talking AIX 1.3 for PS/2, right?
> I thought you might even be able to run it on an LX40...  There are at least reports of people getting it to run in older versions of VirtualPC.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Ben
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Guy Sotomayor [ggs at shiresoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 3:16 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: AIX for IBM system 370
> 
>> On Feb 1, 2016, at 3:10 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
>> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an emulated
>> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
>> working system for download online.
>> 
>> Is there a good place to get the install media?
> 
> I?ve never seen a set.  It would have been released on 9-track tapes.
> 
> I used to work on AIX PS/2 which was a required companion product to AIX/370.
> 
> Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never released on
> CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now unfortunately)
> and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went straight
> to the ?metal?).
> 
> TTFN - Guy
> 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 17:28:48 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 23:28:48 -0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>

As I said on the Hercules list, its licenced materials so probably not available anywhere, and IBM is pretty protective about its intellectual property. 
It wasn't widely used, and it wasn't popular where it was used. There was also Amdahl UTS but again licenced.

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin
> davison
> Sent: 01 February 2016 23:11
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
> 
> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an emulated
> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
> working system for download online.
> 
> Is there a good place to get the install media?


From lists at loomcom.com  Mon Feb  1 18:33:10 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 18:33:10 -0600
Subject: Still wanted: Symbolics Gear
Message-ID: <20160202003310.GA29518@loomcom.com>

Hi folks,

This is as always a tremendous long shot, but I figured I would put
it out there anyway.

I am still eagerly looking for any and all Symbolics systems.  I know
very well how rare these things are, and how much money they are
worth.  

If you have any systems you would be willing to let go of,
let's talk.  I'm happy to entertain trades if that's something
you're interested in, but I'm also happy just to pay fair market
prices.

For reference, I am located near Seattle, WA.

Best Wishes,

-Seth

P.S.: I also know how difficult they are to care for and keep running!
I'm all too familiar with dying ESDI drives and bad power supplies. 

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 21:09:27 2016
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 19:09:27 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Darn. I figured as much as far as being licenced, but figured I would ask.
I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
unix port for the system 370, but i have enough native hardware that runs
unix i might as well not bother with it in emulation.

There are a bunch of software kits for the emulator online, ill take a look
at some of the ibm specific software to see what it is like.

Thanks
--Devin

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> As I said on the Hercules list, its licenced materials so probably not
> available anywhere, and IBM is pretty protective about its intellectual
> property.
> It wasn't widely used, and it wasn't popular where it was used. There was
> also Amdahl UTS but again licenced.
>
> Dave
> G4UGM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin
> > davison
> > Sent: 01 February 2016 23:11
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
> >
> > I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
> > wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an
> emulated
> > system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
> > working system for download online.
> >
> > Is there a good place to get the install media?
>
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 21:39:16 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 19:39:16 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>

If you want a "Unix" experience on the mainframe, the easiest/best way 
at this point
is Linux.

TTFN - Guy

On 2/1/16 7:09 PM, devin davison wrote:
> Darn. I figured as much as far as being licenced, but figured I would ask.
> I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
> I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
> unix port for the system 370, but i have enough native hardware that runs
> unix i might as well not bother with it in emulation.
>
> There are a bunch of software kits for the emulator online, ill take a look
> at some of the ibm specific software to see what it is like.
>
> Thanks
> --Devin
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As I said on the Hercules list, its licenced materials so probably not
>> available anywhere, and IBM is pretty protective about its intellectual
>> property.
>> It wasn't widely used, and it wasn't popular where it was used. There was
>> also Amdahl UTS but again licenced.
>>
>> Dave
>> G4UGM
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin
>>> davison
>>> Sent: 01 February 2016 23:11
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
>>>
>>> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
>>> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an
>> emulated
>>> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
>>> working system for download online.
>>>
>>> Is there a good place to get the install media?
>>


From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 21:58:00 2016
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 22:58:00 -0500
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>

What machine would you recommend for the Linux route. The idea being to run
the oldest machine possible.

I was looking at AIX because it ran on one of the oldest ibm machines i
could find.

I see the big S/390 machines have pretty good linux support, but god, ill
never find one around here. Pretty interesting big machines though.

--Devin

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> If you want a "Unix" experience on the mainframe, the easiest/best way at
> this point
> is Linux.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
> On 2/1/16 7:09 PM, devin davison wrote:
>
>> Darn. I figured as much as far as being licenced, but figured I would ask.
>> I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
>> I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
>> unix port for the system 370, but i have enough native hardware that runs
>> unix i might as well not bother with it in emulation.
>>
>> There are a bunch of software kits for the emulator online, ill take a
>> look
>> at some of the ibm specific software to see what it is like.
>>
>> Thanks
>> --Devin
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As I said on the Hercules list, its licenced materials so probably not
>>> available anywhere, and IBM is pretty protective about its intellectual
>>> property.
>>> It wasn't widely used, and it wasn't popular where it was used. There was
>>> also Amdahl UTS but again licenced.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> G4UGM
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin
>>>> davison
>>>> Sent: 01 February 2016 23:11
>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>>> Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
>>>>
>>>> I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
>>>> wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an
>>>>
>>> emulated
>>>
>>>> system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
>>>> working system for download online.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a good place to get the install media?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb  1 22:02:55 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 20:02:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
 <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602012000470.17056@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, devin davison wrote:
> What machine would you recommend for the Linux route. The idea being to run
> the oldest machine possible.
> I was looking at AIX because it ran on one of the oldest ibm machines i
> could find.

Howzbout Xenix?
Could run it on a 286 AT.
Maybe even on an XT?  Although I think that you'd want more than 10MB, so 
need to jumper the controller to run a 26MB drive.



From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 22:11:24 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:11:24 -0700
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:09 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
> I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
> unix port for the system 370,

There may be a "straight unix port" for the System/370, but AIX ain't
it. The earlier IX/370 product may be closer to a straight port, but
is probably even less easily found than AIX/370.

"AIX looks like it was implemented by a pretty smart space alien who
heard Unix described to him by a different space alien, but they had
to gesture a lot because their universal translators were broken."
    --unknown, but often misattributed to Paul Tomblin

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Mon Feb  1 22:14:14 2016
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 22:14:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
References: <42050698.11999175.1454354093381.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602012211100.13675@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Norman Jaffe wrote:

> I've had even more fun with UPS - there was a big hole punched in the 
> side of a tape library that was shipped to me, completely destroying the 
> library.
> The hole matched the fork on a forklift truck.
> UPS insisted that the hole existed before they shipped it - until it was 
> pointed out that the hole was right through their shipping documents.

The very same thing happened to me with a washing machine sized box which 
contained a computer rack. The hole was large enough where one of the 
packages of mounting hardware/brackets got lost. The seller was 
non-responsive and hadn't insured it and it took me ~3 months to get $100 
out of UPS.

From rlloken at telus.net  Mon Feb  1 22:15:00 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:15:00 -0700 (MST)
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
 <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602012109260.46465@discord.bogons>

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, devin davison wrote:

> What machine would you recommend for the Linux route. The idea being to run
> the oldest machine possible.
>
> I was looking at AIX because it ran on one of the oldest ibm machines i
> could find.

Way back, circa 1980, Unix V6 was ported to the 370, a bit later Amdahl 
marketed UTS, and a bit more later IBM marketed IX/370.  All of this was 
prior to 1986 I think.  As far as I know, all of them ran under the VM 
hypervisor way back when Linus Torvald was still wearing diapers and 
decades before some linux weenie thought he invented the vm hypervisor.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Mon Feb  1 22:22:41 2016
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 22:22:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <B0190861-8002-4AFB-A72C-F5CE0D71426A@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOrcWjwE4gwd=Bp6Sf+GmqN9nkRP9ZcibGwyae3ZSCjFPNmf3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0190861-8002-4AFB-A72C-F5CE0D71426A@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602012214320.13675@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Tothwolf wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in 
>>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
>>>
>>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are 
>>> not gentle on parcels.
>>
>> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period.  In the last 6 
>> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
>> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
>> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
>> magically showing up.  Glad it wasn't perishable.
>
> I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers.
>
> UPS tracking is a *joke*.  It tells you not where the package is but 
> where it?s supposed to be.  I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it 
> wasn?t until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that 
> they realized there was a problem.  There was not one ?physical? scan of 
> the package and they had no idea where it was.

I recently bought a vacuum tube tester and whatever USPS carrier happened 
to be on duty scanned it as delivered but it was nowhere to be found. 
After calling the USPS and getting the branch manager involved, it 
magically appeared the next day. Someone at the USPS had also marked out 
the tracking barcode on the label.

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 22:27:40 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 20:27:40 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
 <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B0303C.5020705@shiresoft.com>



On 2/1/16 7:58 PM, devin davison wrote:
> What machine would you recommend for the Linux route. The idea being to run
> the oldest machine possible.
>
> I was looking at AIX because it ran on one of the oldest ibm machines i
> could find.
>
> I see the big S/390 machines have pretty good linux support, but god, ill
> never find one around here. Pretty interesting big machines though.

The MP3000 had linux support.  They even had an option for the CPU to 
run linux.  It was
cheaper than the "normal" CPUs because it was configured to not be able 
to run the IBM OS's.

TTFN - Guy


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  1 22:37:21 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 20:37:21 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>



On 2/1/16 8:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:09 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
>> I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
>> unix port for the system 370,
> There may be a "straight unix port" for the System/370, but AIX ain't
> it. The earlier IX/370 product may be closer to a straight port, but
> is probably even less easily found than AIX/370.
>
> "AIX looks like it was implemented by a pretty smart space alien who
> heard Unix described to him by a different space alien, but they had
> to gesture a lot because their universal translators were broken."
>      --unknown, but often misattributed to Paul Tomblin
You have to remember that IBM called all of it's UNIX products AIX 
regardless of where
they came from.

IX/370 was prior to the AIX naming and if I recall, that was done by 
Interactive.  AIX/370
and AIX PS/2 actually were the same code base (as opposed to AIX RT and 
AIX 3...RS/6000).
Those code bases were from Locus Computer Corporation.

The AIX in the quote was regarding AIX for the RS/6000.  The kernel for 
AIX on the
RS/6000 bore no real resemblance to any other Unix kernel.  That was 
mainly due to
the size of the virtual address space of the Power processors.  At the 
time (32-bits)
the Power CPU supported a 52-bit virtual address space and with 256MB 
segments,
it was possible to map the 4GB address with 16 segment registers also 
because
Power used "inverted page tables", there was no real notion of reloading 
the page
tables.  The page table described the full 52-bit address space.  So to 
do an address
space switch, you just needed to reload a significant set of the segment 
registers
(actually quite fast).

What the kernel did was to allocate each data structure as an array and 
pointed a
segment register at it.  Since at that point, virtual addresses were 
"free", it was just
point a segment register at the array and away you go.  Pretty much 
everything in
the kernel was an index into an array.  Which array, was determined by 
the segment
register.

Yes, it was alien (vs traditional Unix kernels) but it was simple and 
quite fast.

TTFN - Guy


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 00:05:48 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 23:05:48 -0700
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> The AIX in the quote was regarding AIX for the RS/6000.  The kernel for AIX
> on the
> RS/6000 bore no real resemblance to any other Unix kernel.
[...]
> Yes, it was alien (vs traditional Unix kernels) but it was simple and quite
> fast.

Am I misremembering, or doesn't AIX use substantially different
commands for managing things, rather than the commands typically found
in /sbin and/or /usr/sbin on "normal" Unix systems?  I thought that
was another motivation for the "space alien" quote, rather than only
the kernel.

I haven't actually used AIX/370. I used AIX for the RS/6000 only long
enough to get disgusted and get an illicit copy of AOS, which was BSD
4.3, which I knew how to use.

From phil at ultimate.com  Tue Feb  2 00:21:28 2016
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 01:21:28 -0500
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201602020621.u126LSYM071980@ultimate.com>

My favorite quote (by my one-time boss at BU, Barry Shein):
"AIX, it will remind you of Unix"

Eric Smith wrote:
> Am I misremembering, or doesn't AIX use substantially different
> commands for managing things, rather than the commands typically found
> in /sbin and/or /usr/sbin on "normal" Unix systems?

Configuration was stored in a "Object Database" (so forget anything
you ever knew about the /etc directory).  System administration for
mortals was done with a GUI called "SMIT".  It showed an animation of
a person running.  If the command failed, they fell down face first.
But, SMIT *DID* show you the commands it was using, so you could learn
from the mistake of ever running it.

Everything was reworded in IBM standard english,
ie; DASD instead of Disk.

No doubt there are other horrors I've put out of my mind.

Here's a memory I couldn't suppress: Device drivers couldn't have
persistent mapping of devices into the kernel address space: you had
to remap the device each time you entered the driver!

ISTR the kernel was SVR3 based.  The streams implementation
was.... different, but not as bad as the one I remember on HP-UX.

From u.tagge at gmx.de  Mon Feb  1 14:24:00 2016
From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:24:00 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/84 (KDJ11-B) and Error 61
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1454349600.59812.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1454349600.59812.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56AFBEE0.1090309@gmx.de>

Hi List,

I have a working 11/84, and I have decidec, to test some of my spare 
cards, starting with: KDJ11-B.

I see the following error, when powering up the system, which points me 
to the Clock.


 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Error 61
M8190 clock Error

See troubleshooting documentation


Command    Description

    1       Rerun test
    2       Loop on test


Type a command then press the RETURN key:
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Any hints, what the problem could be? Is the clock in this new PDP's 
still generated out of the line frequency? Could it by, that the KDJ11-B 
is configured to a wrong HZ value?

Many Greetings
Ulrich

From u.tagge at gmx.de  Mon Feb  1 14:43:53 2016
From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:43:53 +0100
Subject: Equipment Available, DEC
In-Reply-To: <000601d15c9b$659a6ac0$30cf4040$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000601d15c9b$659a6ac0$30cf4040$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56AFC389.6090006@gmx.de>

Hi Jay,

You should have received my mail.
The distance from me to Switzerland is not to high, and I'm quite often 
there, so maybe I can pick-up them, and extend my collection.

Many Greetings
Ulrich


<mailto:cctech%40classiccmp.org?Subject=Re%3A%20Equipment%20Available%2C%20DEC&In-Reply-To=%3C000601d15c9b%24659a6ac0%2430cf4040%24%40classiccmp.org%3E> 


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 14:55:45 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:55:45 -0800
Subject: PDP-11/84 (KDJ11-B) and Error 61
In-Reply-To: <56AFBEE0.1090309@gmx.de>
References: <mailman.3.1454349600.59812.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <56AFBEE0.1090309@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJvQLJP2d2VqU8aNAQdK5f1-ZKKxhtx=VCZAz044KS+-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Ulrich Tagge <u.tagge at gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi List,
>
> I have a working 11/84, and I have decidec, to test some of my spare cards,
> starting with: KDJ11-B.
>
> I see the following error, when powering up the system, which points me to
> the Clock.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Error 61
> M8190 clock Error
>
> Any hints, what the problem could be? Is the clock in this new PDP's still
> generated out of the line frequency? Could it by, that the KDJ11-B is
> configured to a wrong HZ value?

If you have one M8190 KDJ11-B which works fine and another one which
has this error when swapped into the same system you should check the
EEPROM configuration options between the two and see if the LTC
options are configured differently between the two.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf

2.3 EEPROM CONFIGURATION PARAMETERS
Table 2-6 Configuration Parameters
H - Disable clock CSR (0)=No (1)=Yes
I - Force clock interrupts (0)=No (1)=Yes
J - Clock frequency (0)=Power supply (1)=50Hz (2)=60Hz (3)=800Hz

If the LTC parameters are configured differently between the two try
changing the parameters of the non working one to match the parameters
of the working one.

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb  1 16:55:10 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:55:10 -0800
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E56EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_PKtSwyjvHL_Tp0Nv0bUi4+=xZSdcdiYZZZfZ9ZrbsCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tektronix up in Oregon also let a few doodles escape

http://www.reprise.com/host/tektronix/humor/

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:51 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
> > I thought HP manuals were dry and hard to read, but I was wrong. See for
> > yourself...
>
> I've found more jokes in technical/service manuals.
>
> Take a look at the HP1311B XY display manual, the EHT power supply section
> :
> page 151 of the pdf on hpmuseum.net.
>
> -tony
>
>

From mark.kahrs at gmail.com  Mon Feb  1 13:43:34 2016
From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:43:34 -0500
Subject: Circuit Design Aids / Unix Circuit Design System
Message-ID: <CAEokdfedosgUnAqNdAr0XQ2x67dFPcOOw23xQxavqBkJbnj9AQ@mail.gmail.com>

In the original Unix BSTJ of 1978 Sandy Fraser described a system he called
"Circuit Design Aids".  Schematic capture was done on a 4014 and conversion
went all the way to wire wrap.

CDA was rehabbed and rewritten by many people over the years.  It became
known as the Unix Circuit Design System (UCDS) and it was available from
Bell Labs under a separate
license as I recall.  UCDS was used to design many projects including the
5620, Belle and others.

When Plan9 arrived, UCDS was converted to Plan9 (not too hard...) and
renamed back to CDA.  The code was released in the first Plan9 CDROM.

So.  It occurred to me that I could back port it to Linux.  I did so with
help from H. Trickey and the Plan9 compatibility library.  I put all of
this code on https://github.com/kahrs/cda.

The interested and curious can find it there.  I make no promises about
full functionality, however, it is available for those who want to tinker.

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Tue Feb  2 01:11:42 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 23:11:42 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B056AE.6050806@shiresoft.com>



On 2/1/16 10:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> The AIX in the quote was regarding AIX for the RS/6000.  The kernel for AIX
>> on the
>> RS/6000 bore no real resemblance to any other Unix kernel.
> [...]
>> Yes, it was alien (vs traditional Unix kernels) but it was simple and quite
>> fast.
> Am I misremembering, or doesn't AIX use substantially different
> commands for managing things, rather than the commands typically found
> in /sbin and/or /usr/sbin on "normal" Unix systems?  I thought that
> was another motivation for the "space alien" quote, rather than only
> the kernel.

Yea, all of the management was done through smit (I think that's the 
command).  Menu
driven and everything was kept in a database.

I think in later versions IBM relented and allowed things to be managed 
through "normal"
Unix commands and files.
>
> I haven't actually used AIX/370. I used AIX for the RS/6000 only long
> enough to get disgusted and get an illicit copy of AOS, which was BSD
> 4.3, which I knew how to use.

I used  AIX (I think it was 3.2.5)  for quite a while as a build 
environment for other systems
(since it tended to be the fastest thing around...at IBM anyway).

TTFN - Guy


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb  2 01:57:51 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 08:57:51 +0100
Subject: Last call: free machines in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+3_AexQfU980GJCCFCKpyhGjTsrv1Xo=82gfJkBDsAvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160129103821.GA15994@Update.UU.SE>
 <004b01d15ac6$1e876830$5b963890$@ntlworld.com>
 <20160201074954.GB26168@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAM2UOw+3_AexQfU980GJCCFCKpyhGjTsrv1Xo=82gfJkBDsAvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160202075751.GA26741@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 01, 2016 at 08:34:21AM -0800, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> >
> > A 4000/300, the first 4000 QBus machine I believe. And the only one that
> > doesn't have a separate memory bus.
> >
> > (I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong though :)
> 
> Not that it really matters, but the M7626 / KA660 / 4000-200 was the
> only modular VAX 4000 series CPU that plugged directly into a regular
> Q22/CD QBus slot, for example in a BA215 or BA430 chassis.

You are right, the chassis reads 4000-200. I just got the number wrong.

/P

From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Tue Feb  2 04:24:09 2016
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 11:24:09 +0100
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJVs3Qg2QVk0HZCQTw4MsEJXGDKRvcHpvDe89+ARQ3TbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>

Hi Mattis,

all I can contribute here are german IS/M Manuals of my P8000 which state,
that this IS/M is compatible to ISIS II 4.1.
Most likely, this IS/M is just a copy of IS/M + modifications to the specific
hardware.

No idea how helpful german text is to you though....
But that is all I have

http://www.pofo.de/P8000/notes/books/IS_M_Systemhandbuch/1988_06/IS_M_Systemhandbuch.pdf

There is a disk format section on Page 13 chapter 4.3.
A kinda verbose description of the filesystem is in chapter 4.4,
page 13 and following.

Since it is a PDF, maybe google translate can help a bit...

Regards,
Oliver



Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:

> While browsing various 8 inch floppies I have found a couple of disks that
> seems to contain ISIS-II stuff.
>
> I discovered a document specifying the format of the disk and managed to
> extract the contents:
>
> Disk1:
> arbetsrumsdatorn:ISIS mattis_lind$ ls UNKN2
> ATTRIB DSPERR ICE80.OV1 ISIS.LAB PLM80.OV0 PLMCOD.CSD
> COPY EDIT ICE80.OV2 ISIS.MAP PLM80.OV1 PLMNOC.CSD
> DELETE FORMAT ISIS.BIN ISIS.T0 PLM80.OV2 RENAME
> DIR ICE80 ISIS.CLI PLM80 PLM80.OV3 SUBMIT
> DSP ICE80.OV0 ISIS.DIR PLM80.LIB PLM80.OV4 SYSTEM.LIB
>
> Disk2:
> arbetsrumsdatorn:ISIS mattis_lind$ ls DISK2
> ALIAS DEBUG EXEC LINK RELEAS TTY
> ALLOC DELETE FORMAT MDUP REMAP TXT
> ANALYZ DGEN FRAPP MEMDMP RENAME TXW
> ASM DIR HEXBIN MOVE RESCUE XREF
> ASSIGN DIRPAC INIT MYLOAD SEDIT
> ATTRIB DROP ISIS.DIR O SYS
> DCONVA DRSTC ISIS.ERR PAGE SYSTEM
> DCOPY EDIT ISIS.LAB PROM T2
> DDUMC ETX ISIS.MAP RASM TPGEN
>
> If someone is interested in these I put them here:
> http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/isis-ii-floppy-disks
>
> There were also a DSDD format on some disks which seemed a little bit
> different. The ISIS.DIR used 32 byte entries rather than 16 byte entries
> and the directory linkage block structure seemed to be different. I didn't
> spend any time other than recognize the difference.
>
> Is there any documentation that specify the various ISIS disk formats there
> is?
>
> /Mattis



From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue Feb  2 05:44:15 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 12:44:15 +0100
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <1454413455.421.39.camel@agj.net>

m?n 2016-02-01 klockan 20:37 -0800 skrev Guy Sotomayor: 
> 
> On 2/1/16 8:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 8:09 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I really wanted to take a look at the AIX version of unix.
> >> I don't have any of the original hardware, I assume there was a straight
> >> unix port for the system 370,
> > There may be a "straight unix port" for the System/370, but AIX ain't
> > it. The earlier IX/370 product may be closer to a straight port, but
> > is probably even less easily found than AIX/370.
> >
> > "AIX looks like it was implemented by a pretty smart space alien who
> > heard Unix described to him by a different space alien, but they had
> > to gesture a lot because their universal translators were broken."
> >      --unknown, but often misattributed to Paul Tomblin
> You have to remember that IBM called all of it's UNIX products AIX 
> regardless of where they came from.
> 
> IX/370 was prior to the AIX naming and if I recall, that was done by Interactive.  AIX/370
> and AIX PS/2 actually were the same code base (as opposed to AIX RT and AIX 3...RS/6000).
> Those code bases were from Locus Computer Corporation.
> 
> The AIX in the quote was regarding AIX for the RS/6000.  The kernel for AIX on the
> RS/6000 bore no real resemblance to any other Unix kernel.  That was mainly due to
> the size of the virtual address space of the Power processors.  At the time (32-bits)
> the Power CPU supported a 52-bit virtual address space and with 256MB segments,
> it was possible to map the 4GB address with 16 segment registers also because
> Power used "inverted page tables", there was no real notion of reloading the page
> tables.  The page table described the full 52-bit address space.  So to do an address
> space switch, you just needed to reload a significant set of the segment registers
> (actually quite fast).

> What the kernel did was to allocate each data structure as an array and pointed a
> segment register at it.  Since at that point, virtual addresses were "free", it was just
> point a segment register at the array and away you go.  Pretty much everything in
> the kernel was an index into an array.  Which array, was determined by the segment
>register.
> 
> Yes, it was alien (vs traditional Unix kernels) but it was simple and 
> quite fast.

The memory translation is reversed in comparison with how it is done on
the SPARC and the x86, essentially the current loaded tables describes
what IS in memory (RAM), not what could be there which means that you
suddenly have a cap (?) on how much silicon is needed to handle a large
virtual address space. A pretty nice little example of good engineering.

Which also reminds me a little about how page faults is handled in the
MIPS architecture.

Another difference (today at least) between AIX 5 and the current crop
of commercial server Linux (RedHat EL and Suse) is how user software and
operating system packages is installed and kept current/updated.

installp has a far more refined (but complex) way of treating failed
updates/installations which is a bit of trouble for cross-platform
system configuration systems (cfengine for example.)
What is good enough on Linux isn't good enough on AIX.


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue Feb  2 05:47:48 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 12:47:48 +0100
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602012214320.13675@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CAOrcWjwE4gwd=Bp6Sf+GmqN9nkRP9ZcibGwyae3ZSCjFPNmf3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0190861-8002-4AFB-A72C-F5CE0D71426A@shiresoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602012214320.13675@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <1454413668.421.41.camel@agj.net>

m?n 2016-02-01 klockan 22:22 -0600 skrev Tothwolf: 
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Tothwolf wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in 
> >>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
> >>>
> >>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are 
> >>> not gentle on parcels.
> >>
> >> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period.  In the last 6 
> >> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
> >> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
> >> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
> >> magically showing up.  Glad it wasn't perishable.
> >
> > I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers.
> >
> > UPS tracking is a *joke*.  It tells you not where the package is but 
> > where it?s supposed to be.  I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it 
> > wasn?t until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that 
> > they realized there was a problem.  There was not one ?physical? scan of 
> > the package and they had no idea where it was.
> 
> I recently bought a vacuum tube tester and whatever USPS carrier happened 
> to be on duty scanned it as delivered but it was nowhere to be found. 
> After calling the USPS and getting the branch manager involved, it 
> magically appeared the next day. Someone at the USPS had also marked out 
> the tracking barcode on the label.

HOW BAD is the relationship between the guys/gals on the floor at USPS
and management/congress ?
If people is sabotaging like this.


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue Feb  2 06:12:06 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:12:06 +0100
Subject: HP Manuals - where's your sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
References: <002601d15cf1$73491c60$59db5520$@MH-AeroTools.de>
Message-ID: <1454415126.421.45.camel@agj.net>

m?n 2016-02-01 klockan 14:07 +0100 skrev
Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de: 
> While I was reading through the HP 200/300 BASIC Manual I came across some
> interesting points I hadn't considered in the past.
> 
> I thought HP manuals were dry and hard to read, but I was wrong. See for
> yourself...
> 
> 
> Installing, Using, and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System
> =============================================
> Loading BASIC, page 1-16
> -------------------------------
> If You See Nothing on the Monitor Screen
> Here are some possible explanations:
> - The monitor's brightness is not turned all the way up.
> - The monitor is not plugged in.
> - The computer is not plugged in.
> - Your eyes are not pointed in the right direction, or are obscured by your
> eyelids.
> 
> 
> Other Maintenance Tasks, page 17-1
> --------------------------------------------
> The following list mentions some things users take for granted or tend to
> forget.
> ...
> - ...
> - ...
> - Rotate your tires and otherwise examine your system to see that it is
> performing nicely.
> 
> 
> Maybe the author had a good friend in final quality control of the manuals.
> 
> Martin

This isn't computer and or instrument related but in the old times an
requiremnt for being an draftsman (?) was being a fair painter. Someone
ones showed a joke cartoon done by someone in the SJ (Statens J?rnv?gar)
mechanical drafting department. 

See here http://www.jvmv2.se/forum/index.php?id=25268

AJJJJJJJJJJJJJ


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb  2 07:11:22 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 05:11:22 -0800
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
In-Reply-To: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
References: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <56B0AAFA.6010401@sydex.com>

If these are 52-sector 8" ISIS disks, I can probably help with a bit of 
C code to extract files from the images.  Drop me a note and I'll pass 
it along.

Hasn't Al K already cataloged a lot of this stuff on bitsavers?

Cheers,
--Chuck



From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue Feb  2 09:22:19 2016
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 15:22:19 +0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <201602020621.u126LSYM071980@ultimate.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <201602020621.u126LSYM071980@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <AD88C26F-11D0-4216-A755-57ABC2C71B46@swri.edu>

On Feb 2, 2016, at 12:21 AM, Phil Budne <phil at ultimate.com> wrote:

> Configuration was stored in a "Object Database" (so forget anything
> you ever knew about the /etc directory).  System administration for
> mortals was done with a GUI called "SMIT".  It showed an animation of
> a person running.  If the command failed, they fell down face first.
> But, SMIT *DID* show you the commands it was using, so you could learn
> from the mistake of ever running it.

:-) The command/control workstations for IMAGE ran AIX on POWER (RS/6000) desktop stations. I got to see a lot of SMIT face-plants, but of course, that was usually because I had fouled up at some point or another. I wasn?t enough of a UNIX weenie at the time that the experience even reminded me of UNIX. 

However in fairness, if a workstation was T/U, it probably wasn?t one of the RS/6000?s, and the SMIT-inspired swearing fits by the folks that actually knew what was going on were brief compared to the swearing fits at the Tru64(?) Alphasevers that did the data logging and reduction. I gathered there was a relatively severe endian-ness disagreement between programmers and DEC hardware in that  case.
							- Mark



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb  2 09:37:26 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  2 Feb 2016 10:37:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7
 with SATA hard drives?
Message-ID: <20160202153726.5189218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dale H. Cook

    > I have spare IDE drives for my 98SE laptops.

Might want to drag them out once a year and run them, to prevent anything
sticking over time. (I should take my own advice, here.... :-)

	Noel

From radiotest at juno.com  Tue Feb  2 12:28:49 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:28:49 -0500
Subject: Win98SE Update/Patches WAS: Can Windows 98SE run on an
 Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <20160202153726.5189218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160202153726.5189218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160202132743.03da3888@juno.com>

At 10:37 AM 2/2/2016, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>Might want to drag them out once a year and run them, to prevent anything sticking over time. (I should take my own advice, here.... :-)

I exercise all of my spare hard and floppy drives periodically.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From mattislind at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 12:35:17 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 19:35:17 +0100
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
In-Reply-To: <56B0AAFA.6010401@sydex.com>
References: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <56B0AAFA.6010401@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJ2eUgppTFawY5nAZv-5A0a2K2NRvYqyET6s4nZfzUOwA@mail.gmail.com>

tisdag 2 februari 2016 skrev Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>:

> If these are 52-sector 8" ISIS disks,


> Yes. Double sided. 26 sector per track. Double Density. 256 byte per
sector.

>  I can probably help with a bit of C code to extract files from the
> images.  Drop me a note and I'll pass it along.


Not really necessary. The files on those disks looked quite uninteresting.
It was just that curiosity that hit me when I was browsing through the
hexdump.  I now have concluded that the second disk is infact a disk for a
Tandberg TDV21xx machine. The TOS operating system is supposed to have
similarities to ISIS. The disk structure and the presence of files like
ISIS.DIR, ISIS.MAP etc among othes.


> Hasn't Al K already cataloged a lot of this stuff on bitsavers?


I have seen a lot of ISIS disks archived. But I didn't immediately find a
disk with PL/M 80 and ICE80. Maybe there is.


>
> Cheers,
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From turing at shaw.ca  Tue Feb  2 11:40:53 2016
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 10:40:53 -0700 (MST)
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <1454413668.421.41.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <768186471.12915643.1454434853361.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>

I was once given a tour of a USPS facility and told to not make eye contact with the workers, as this was considered a threatening move by management. 
I don't know if it's gotten any better, but it was definitely a weird experience. 
----- Original Message -----

From: "Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare)" <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 3:47:48 AM 
Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping 

m?n 2016-02-01 klockan 22:22 -0600 skrev Tothwolf: 
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: 
> > On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Tothwolf wrote: 
> >>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: 
> >>> 
> >>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in 
> >>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half 
> >>> 
> >>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are 
> >>> not gentle on parcels. 
> >> 
> >> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6 
> >> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
> >> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
> >> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
> >> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable. 
> > 
> > I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers. 
> > 
> > UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but 
> > where it?s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it 
> > wasn?t until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that 
> > they realized there was a problem. There was not one ?physical? scan of 
> > the package and they had no idea where it was. 
> 
> I recently bought a vacuum tube tester and whatever USPS carrier happened 
> to be on duty scanned it as delivered but it was nowhere to be found. 
> After calling the USPS and getting the branch manager involved, it 
> magically appeared the next day. Someone at the USPS had also marked out 
> the tracking barcode on the label. 

HOW BAD is the relationship between the guys/gals on the floor at USPS 
and management/congress ? 
If people is sabotaging like this. 



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Feb  2 12:13:07 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 13:13:07 -0500
Subject: USPS: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <768186471.12915643.1454434853361.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
References: <768186471.12915643.1454434853361.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <56B0F1B3.5080209@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-02 12:40 PM, Norman Jaffe wrote:
> I was once given a tour of a USPS facility and told to not make eye contact with the workers, as this was considered a threatening move by management.
> I don't know if it's gotten any better, but it was definitely a weird experience.


https://twitter.com/NizarKrayem/status/560443201173983234

--Toby



> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare)" <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 3:47:48 AM
> Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping
>
> m?n 2016-02-01 klockan 22:22 -0600 skrev Tothwolf:
>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>>> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Tothwolf wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in
>>>>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half
>>>>>
>>>>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are
>>>>> not gentle on parcels.
>>>>
>>>> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6
>>>> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or
>>>> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web
>>>> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before
>>>> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable.
>>>
>>> I?ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers.
>>>
>>> UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but
>>> where it?s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it
>>> wasn?t until the tracking said it was ?on the truck for delivery? that
>>> they realized there was a problem. There was not one ?physical? scan of
>>> the package and they had no idea where it was.
>>
>> I recently bought a vacuum tube tester and whatever USPS carrier happened
>> to be on duty scanned it as delivered but it was nowhere to be found.
>> After calling the USPS and getting the branch manager involved, it
>> magically appeared the next day. Someone at the USPS had also marked out
>> the tracking barcode on the label.
>
> HOW BAD is the relationship between the guys/gals on the floor at USPS
> and management/congress ?
> If people is sabotaging like this.
>
>
>


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 13:34:36 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 12:34:36 -0700
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJ2eUgppTFawY5nAZv-5A0a2K2NRvYqyET6s4nZfzUOwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <56B0AAFA.6010401@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SJ2eUgppTFawY5nAZv-5A0a2K2NRvYqyET6s4nZfzUOwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSBdJF9jGSRLnap6tS-7osw=BTKr8H=cAxA_+vV-BvgeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 2, 2016 11:35 AM, "Mattis Lind" <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:
> I now have concluded that the second disk is infact a disk for a
> Tandberg TDV21xx machine. The TOS operating system is supposed to have
> similarities to ISIS. The disk structure and the presence of files like
> ISIS.DIR, ISIS.MAP etc among othes.

I wonder whether Tandberg licensed ISIS-II from Intel and modified the
directory (and perhaps other stuff). I haven't ever seen evidence that
Intel particularly tried to license ISIS-II to OEMs, but if one came
knocking, they might not have turned them away.

From cctalk at snarc.net  Tue Feb  2 14:26:43 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 15:26:43 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 chase the lights
Message-ID: <56B11103.8070000@snarc.net>

Our group here in NJ + surroundings now has monthly-ish repair workshops 
(vs. a few times per year before). At the workshop this past weekend, 
David Gesswein continued restoring our PDP-8.

David summarized: "I fixed the known fault of accumulator bit
going to zero when it was rotated left. This was a bad diode on one
of the accumulator boards. I also replaced two bad bulbs and a third
that died during the repair. Since one that died was one I previously
replaced I'm going to use the not quite matching bulbs with heavier
wires for future repairs. The wires are just too thinn on the 1762 bulbs
and now that they have aged they break too easy. I then found that the 
teletype interface wasn't working and replaced a diode on a R220 to fix 
output. Input is not working properly. I have traced it to a particular 
flip flop on a R220 where when the data changes it feeds through to the 
output without the clock active. I ran out of time to identify the 
component that needs replacing."

Here's a little video of the computer chasing its lights. :)

http://www.vcfed.org/evan/pdp8lights.mp4

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb  2 14:10:22 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 12:10:22 -0800
Subject: ISIS-II disks with PLM80 and ICE80 software.
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJ2eUgppTFawY5nAZv-5A0a2K2NRvYqyET6s4nZfzUOwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160202112409.Horde.i_pKHZ48y_N1zLrzg1WiDit@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <56B0AAFA.6010401@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SJ2eUgppTFawY5nAZv-5A0a2K2NRvYqyET6s4nZfzUOwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B10D2E.70505@sydex.com>

On 02/02/2016 10:35 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:

> I have seen a lot of ISIS disks archived. But I didn't immediately
> find a disk with PL/M 80 and ICE80. Maybe there is.


I don't know about disks, but I've got the following self-extracting 
archives:

PLM80.ZIP
F77-86.ZIP
CB86TOYS.ZIP
PLI86.ZIP
PLM80X86.ZIP
MPM86-21.ZIP

All are self-extracting archives; a peek at the PLM80.ZIP file shows it 
to be pretty complete, including PLM51.  If you want copies of this, 
just ask--I don't know where these came from, but they appear to be ISIS 
or CP/M related.

--Chuck



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Feb  2 15:33:20 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 16:33:20 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 chase the lights
Message-ID: <4a59ed.6010274a.43e27aa0@aol.com>

THAT IS  WHAT  WE  USED TO CALL THE  CYLON   EYE  PROGRAM!
eD#  _WWW.SMECC.ORG_ (http://www.SMECC.ORG)  
 
 
In a message dated 2/2/2016 1:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk at snarc.net writes:

Our  group here in NJ + surroundings now has monthly-ish repair workshops 
(vs.  a few times per year before). At the workshop this past weekend, 
David  Gesswein continued restoring our PDP-8.

David summarized: "I fixed the  known fault of accumulator bit
going to zero when it was rotated left. This  was a bad diode on one
of the accumulator boards. I also replaced two bad  bulbs and a third
that died during the repair. Since one that died was one  I previously
replaced I'm going to use the not quite matching bulbs with  heavier
wires for future repairs. The wires are just too thinn on the 1762  bulbs
and now that they have aged they break too easy. I then found that  the 
teletype interface wasn't working and replaced a diode on a R220 to  fix 
output. Input is not working properly. I have traced it to a  particular 
flip flop on a R220 where when the data changes it feeds  through to the 
output without the clock active. I ran out of time to  identify the 
component that needs replacing."

Here's a little video  of the computer chasing its lights.  :)

http://www.vcfed.org/evan/pdp8lights.mp4


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 15:33:53 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:33:53 -0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B0303C.5020705@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B024E4.2040100@shiresoft.com>
 <CAOpB=UMcN3FYdDgLgcqaDrNmwZjZxQ9vyDTJANTH9v2nkkH8QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B0303C.5020705@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <04bf01d15e01$6a448a30$3ecd9e90$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor
> Sent: 02 February 2016 04:28
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: AIX for IBM system 370
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/1/16 7:58 PM, devin davison wrote:
> > What machine would you recommend for the Linux route. The idea being
> > to run the oldest machine possible.
> >
> > I was looking at AIX because it ran on one of the oldest ibm machines
> > i could find.
> >
> > I see the big S/390 machines have pretty good linux support, but god,
> > ill never find one around here. Pretty interesting big machines though.
> 
> The MP3000 had linux support.  They even had an option for the CPU to run
> linux.  It was cheaper than the "normal" CPUs because it was configured to
> not be able to run the IBM OS's.

Actually I really think it?s the other way round. The OS is nobbled so it won't run. For many bits of software IBM will un-nobble them but the cost means its generally not worth while...

> 
> TTFN - Guy

Dave
G4UGM



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Feb  2 16:07:34 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 14:07:34 -0800
Subject: Pascal Microengine software images
Message-ID: <56B128A6.9030103@bitsavers.org>

I successfully imaged OS revs E0, F0, F1, G0 and H0 of the Pascal 
Microengine from the original
distribution media this morning with the application of cyclomethicone 
as Chuck suggested. I
was worried since they were 79'ish vintage BASF media, but the 
lubrication did the trick and
they read without errors.

http://bitsavers.org/bits/WesternDigital/microengine_distributions_E0-H0.zip




From u.tagge at gmx.de  Tue Feb  2 14:57:22 2016
From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:57:22 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/84 (KDJ11-B) and Error 61
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJvQLJP2d2VqU8aNAQdK5f1-ZKKxhtx=VCZAz044KS+-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM2UOwJvQLJP2d2VqU8aNAQdK5f1-ZKKxhtx=VCZAz044KS+-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B11832.6020303@gmx.de>

Hi Glen,

many thanks.

Problem was, that I had no clue, how to bypass the error to enter the setup mode. As Ctrl C was not working.

I have in the meantime found in the KDJ11-D/S dokumentation, that (CTRL + O) (4) Enter" do it.

Now I have set all setup parameters to the same as on the working KDJ11-B and it boots up without errors.

Here my parms:

Type a command then press the RETURN key: 2

List/change parameters in the Setup table

     A - ANSI Video terminal (1)          0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
     B - Power up  0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
     C - Restart   0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
     D - Ignore battery                   0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     E - PMG 0-(7) 1=.4us, 2=.8, 3=1.6, 4=3.2,...7=25.6  = 7
     F - Disable clock CSR                0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     G - Force clock interrupts           0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     H - Clock  0=Power supply, 1=50Hz, 2=60Hz, 3=800Hz  = 1
     I - Enable ECC test (1)              0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
     J - Disable long memory test         0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     K - Disable ROM 0=No, 1=Dis 165, 2=Dis 173, 3=Both  = 0
     L - Enable trap on Halt              0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     M - Allow alternate boot block       0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
     N - Disable Setup mode               0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     O - Disable all testing              0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     P - Enable Unibus memory test (1)    0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     Q - Disable UBA ROM                  0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
     R - Enable UBA cache (1)             0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
     S - Enable 18 Bit mode               0=No,   1=Yes  = 0


The trick was Parm "H" which was set to "0".

Many Greetings
Ulrich

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Ulrich Tagge<u.tagge at gmx.de  <http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech>>  wrote:
>/  Hi List,
/>/
/>/  I have a working 11/84, and I have decidec, to test some of my spare cards,
/>/  starting with: KDJ11-B.
/>/
/>/  I see the following error, when powering up the system, which points me to
/>/  the Clock.
/>/
/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/
/>/  Error 61
/>/  M8190 clock Error
/>/
/>/  Any hints, what the problem could be? Is the clock in this new PDP's still
/>/  generated out of the line frequency? Could it by, that the KDJ11-B is
/>/  configured to a wrong HZ value?
/
If you have one M8190 KDJ11-B which works fine and another one which
has this error when swapped into the same system you should check the
EEPROM configuration options between the two and see if the LTC
options are configured differently between the two.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf

2.3 EEPROM CONFIGURATION PARAMETERS
Table 2-6 Configuration Parameters
H - Disable clock CSR (0)=No (1)=Yes
I - Force clock interrupts (0)=No (1)=Yes
J - Clock frequency (0)=Power supply (1)=50Hz (2)=60Hz (3)=800Hz

If the LTC parameters are configured differently between the two try
changing the parameters of the non working one to match the parameters
of the working one.


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 19:34:56 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 14:34:56 +1300
Subject: PDP-8 chase the lights
In-Reply-To: <56B11103.8070000@snarc.net>
References: <56B11103.8070000@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbP6E0MSbwQPXOu=Eq92WcouCq1xxhEiN9M8st-z=Qxu-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Nicely done! I don't think I've seen that one before; can you supply a
quick toggle in?

Mike

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net> wrote:
> Our group here in NJ + surroundings now has monthly-ish repair workshops
> (vs. a few times per year before). At the workshop this past weekend, David
> Gesswein continued restoring our PDP-8.
>
> David summarized: "I fixed the known fault of accumulator bit
> going to zero when it was rotated left. This was a bad diode on one
> of the accumulator boards. I also replaced two bad bulbs and a third
> that died during the repair. Since one that died was one I previously
> replaced I'm going to use the not quite matching bulbs with heavier
> wires for future repairs. The wires are just too thinn on the 1762 bulbs
> and now that they have aged they break too easy. I then found that the
> teletype interface wasn't working and replaced a diode on a R220 to fix
> output. Input is not working properly. I have traced it to a particular flip
> flop on a R220 where when the data changes it feeds through to the output
> without the clock active. I ran out of time to identify the component that
> needs replacing."
>
> Here's a little video of the computer chasing its lights. :)
>
> http://www.vcfed.org/evan/pdp8lights.mp4



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Feb  2 19:35:15 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:35:15 -0500
Subject: Lot of 34 Transputers sold on ebay
Message-ID: <56B15953.1070207@telegraphics.com.au>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151966095000

Did anyone we know buy them? Would be good to know they went to a good home.

--Toby

From cctalk at snarc.net  Tue Feb  2 20:38:22 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:38:22 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 chase the lights
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbP6E0MSbwQPXOu=Eq92WcouCq1xxhEiN9M8st-z=Qxu-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B11103.8070000@snarc.net>
 <CAPhLQbP6E0MSbwQPXOu=Eq92WcouCq1xxhEiN9M8st-z=Qxu-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B1681E.3080502@snarc.net>

> Nicely done! I don't think I've seen that one before; can you supply a
> quick toggle in?
>
> Mike


I can't take any credit. Here is what DG sent me. Look to him for any 
elaboration. :)

---------------------------

   *0                                                          Page 1


set switches to 0 (down)
hit load address
     1        0000          *0
set switches to 5100
hit deposit
     2 00000  5100          JMP START
set switches to 100
hit load address
     3        0100          *100
set switches to 7326
hit deposit
     4 00100  7326  START,  CLA CLL CML RTL
set switches to 7001
hit deposit
repeat for rest of instructions
     4 00100  7326  START,  CLA CLL CML RTL
     5 00101  7001          IAC
     6 00102  7004  LEFT,   RAL
     7 00103  4113          JMS DELAY
     8 00104  7420          SNL
     9 00105  5102          JMP LEFT
    10 00106  7010  RIGHT,  RAR
    11 00107  7430          SZL
    12 00110  5102          JMP LEFT
    13 00111  4113          JMS DELAY
    14 00112  5106          JMP RIGHT
    15
    16 00113  0000  DELAY,  0
    17 00114  3127          DCA TEMP
    18 00115  1177          TAD (-10
    19 00116  3125          DCA DELAY1
    20 00117  1127          TAD TEMP
    21 00120  2126  LOOP,   ISZ DELAY2
    22 00121  5120          JMP LOOP
    23 00122  2125          ISZ DELAY1
    24 00123  5120          JMP LOOP
    25 00124  5513          JMP I DELAY
you can stop here

Set switches to 0
hit load address
hit start

If you set the auto restart switch (leftmost on the right backplane) it
will start running when you power on the machine. Manually halt with single
instruction switch before powering off to prevent memory corruption. Turn
switch back off for auto start to work.

to check you entered correctly or find it where it gets corrupted
enter address
hit load address
hit examine to step through each location
must reload address of bad location (MA register) to write to location shown
    26 00125  0000  DELAY1, 0
    27 00126  0000  DELAY2, 0
    28 00127  0000  TEMP,   0
       00177  7770
    29                      $

       No detected errors
       No links generated

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb  2 22:27:41 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:27:41 -0800
Subject: Tymnet Node processor
Message-ID: <56B181BD.9080105@jwsss.com>

I was talking to a former co-worker who worked for McDonnell Douglas 
Network Systems Company who owned Tymshare at one point, and he had a 
picture of a 1mb memory from one of the nodes.

He passed along this link to the manual for the node processor.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tymshare/tymnet/NPD-604_Engine_Family_Maintainence_Print_Manual_Apr85.pdf

Wondering if any survive and are working.

It was a 64 bit microword, 32 bit data path TTL logic type machine, 
similar to one of the ones I worked on pre-bitslice days.  Also wonder 
if the microcode survived.

Date on the drawings was 1978 though this manual set is coded as April 1985.
thanks
Jim

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Feb  2 23:50:37 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 00:50:37 -0500
Subject: Tymnet Node processor
Message-ID: <24bf28.349adeb6.43e2ef2d@aol.com>


McDonnell Douglas  dec 10
SPACELAB list?
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/2/2016 10:47:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jws at jwsss.com writes:

I was  talking to a former co-worker who worked for McDonnell Douglas 
Network  Systems Company who owned Tymshare at one point, and he had a 
picture of a  1mb memory from one of the nodes.

He passed along this link to the  manual for the node  processor.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tymshare/tymnet/NPD-604_Engine_Family
_Maintainence_Print_Manual_Apr85.pdf

Wondering  if any survive and are working.

It was a 64 bit microword, 32 bit data  path TTL logic type machine, 
similar to one of the ones I worked on  pre-bitslice days.  Also wonder 
if the microcode  survived.

Date on the drawings was 1978 though this manual set is coded  as April  
1985.
thanks
Jim


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Tue Feb  2 19:28:31 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:28:31 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/84 (KDJ11-B) and Error 61
In-Reply-To: <9d2e3958-8505-4e9d-89af-24edb187badb@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM2UOwJvQLJP2d2VqU8aNAQdK5f1-ZKKxhtx=VCZAz044KS+-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d2e3958-8505-4e9d-89af-24edb187badb@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56B157BF.6010802@compsys.to>

 >Ulrich Tagge wrote:Hi Glen,

> [Snip]
>
> List/change parameters in the Setup table
>
>     A - ANSI Video terminal (1)          0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
>     B - Power up  0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
>     C - Restart   0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
>     D - Ignore battery                   0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>     E - PMG 0-(7) 1=.4us, 2=.8, 3=1.6, 4=3.2,...7=25.6  = 7
>     F - Disable clock CSR                0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>     G - Force clock interrupts           0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>     H - Clock  0=Power supply, 1=50Hz, 2=60Hz, 3=800Hz  = 1

Does anyone have an idea as to how the choice of the 800Hz
option was made?

I could understand 1000Hz or perhaps 1200Hz which allows
division by both 50 and 60.  But 800Hz seems like such an
unlikely value.

On the other hand, on the PRO350, the clock rate was 64Hz
and every 16 ticks, I assume that one tick was discarded so
as to support the appearance of a 60 Hz clock.

Jerome Fine

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb  2 19:32:22 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 14:32:22 +1300
Subject: PDP-11/84 (KDJ11-B) and Error 61
In-Reply-To: <56B157BF.6010802@compsys.to>
References: <CAM2UOwJvQLJP2d2VqU8aNAQdK5f1-ZKKxhtx=VCZAz044KS+-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d2e3958-8505-4e9d-89af-24edb187badb@classiccmp.org>
 <56B157BF.6010802@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbO4krVN3yac-OMHXyeqKoAkuVnkgd2k9WFPbUv_69o+Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>Ulrich Tagge wrote:Hi Glen,
>
>> [Snip]
>>
>> List/change parameters in the Setup table
>>
>>     A - ANSI Video terminal (1)          0=No,   1=Yes  = 1
>>     B - Power up  0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
>>     C - Restart   0=Dialog, (1)=Automatic, 2=ODT, 3=24  = 1
>>     D - Ignore battery                   0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>>     E - PMG 0-(7) 1=.4us, 2=.8, 3=1.6, 4=3.2,...7=25.6  = 7
>>     F - Disable clock CSR                0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>>     G - Force clock interrupts           0=No,   1=Yes  = 0
>>     H - Clock  0=Power supply, 1=50Hz, 2=60Hz, 3=800Hz  = 1
>
>
> Does anyone have an idea as to how the choice of the 800Hz
> option was made?

I wondered about that too and blinked twice when I saw it. I could
only think of some aerospace or military application derived from
doubling a 400Hz power supply frequency... or maybe some lab
application that needs that clock...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From other at oryx.us  Wed Feb  3 01:52:10 2016
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2016 01:52:10 -0600
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <56B1B1AA.6020607@oryx.us>

I can confirm much of Guy's comments.

I want to keep this as short as possible and not get booted from the mailing 
list.  The Intel/CISC version of AIX is easily available out on the Internet via 
floppy disc images.  Along with AIX's predecessor, RT.

The IBM RT software was developed for IBM by Interactive Systems Corp.
AIX for PS/2 & PC's was developed by Locus Computing Corp.

Lower end model PS/2's came with ISA expansion slots.  Higher end models were 
MCA (Micro Channel Architecture).

Also, regarding the PS/2 BIOS, is something I was completely unaware of, or at 
least forgot a long time ago, concerning dual BIOS's.  Quoting the Wikipedia 
PS/2 page:::

................
IBM's PS/2 was designed to remain software compatible with their PC/AT/XT line 
of computers upon which the large PC clone market was built, but the hardware 
was quite different. PS/2 had two BIOSes; one was named ABIOS (Advanced BIOS) 
which provided a new protected mode interface and was used by OS/2, and the 
other was named CBIOS (Compatible BIOS) which was included in order for the PS/2 
to be software compatible with the PC/AT/XT. CBIOS was so compatible that it 
even included Cassette BASIC.
................

As I review the AIX 1.3 software, I see both ISA and MCA devices in the drivers 
section.

Good times.....  :)

Jerry




On 02/ 1/16 05:16 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

> Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never released on
> CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now unfortunately)
> and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went straight
> to the ?metal?).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Feb  3 02:09:33 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 01:09:33 -0700
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtD5U+U4W818HL2m7EwXG-9qAzfxO_znMVSit67AGVSuow@mail.gmail.com>

Probably to the point where these can be experienced without fear mongering
and it's of course dependent on local laws not just US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware.  IBM has much better things to
do than attack people messing around with an ancient nonviable operating
system and Amdahl isn't even a thing anymore.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> As I said on the Hercules list, its licenced materials so probably not
> available anywhere, and IBM is pretty protective about its intellectual
> property.
> It wasn't widely used, and it wasn't popular where it was used. There was
> also Amdahl UTS but again licenced.
>
> Dave
> G4UGM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin
> > davison
> > Sent: 01 February 2016 23:11
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
> >
> > I have been messing with the Hercules emulator, and have really been
> > wanting to take a look at ibm AIX, and get a working install on an
> emulated
> > system 370. I have found no mention of install media or disk images of a
> > working system for download online.
> >
> > Is there a good place to get the install media?
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 03:18:57 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 09:18:57 -0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B1B1AA.6020607@oryx.us>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
 <56B1B1AA.6020607@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <025b01d15e63$e9663d60$bc32b820$@gmail.com>

 
> ................
> IBM's PS/2 was designed to remain software compatible with their PC/AT/XT
> line of computers upon which the large PC clone market was built, but the
> hardware was quite different. PS/2 had two BIOSes; one was named ABIOS
> (Advanced BIOS) which provided a new protected mode interface and was
> used by OS/2, and the other was named CBIOS (Compatible BIOS) which was
> included in order for the PS/2 to be software compatible with the
PC/AT/XT.
> CBIOS was so compatible that it even included Cassette BASIC.
> ................

Well it would, otherwise IBM DOS Basic wouldn't work....
... it checks for the Basic ROMS and won't run on a clone...

Dave
G4UGM


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  3 09:06:08 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 15:06:08 +0000
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <025b01d15e63$e9663d60$bc32b820$@gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88803AED-5281-4539-8023-3B6057BA4A01@shiresoft.com>
 <56B1B1AA.6020607@oryx.us>,<025b01d15e63$e9663d60$bc32b820$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5A8F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

[IBM PC ROM BASIC]

> Well it would, otherwise IBM DOS Basic wouldn't work....
.> .. it checks for the Basic ROMS and won't run on a clone...

Not so much 'checks for them' as 'uses large numbers of 
routines from them'. The BASIC on an IBM PC-DOS disk is 
a much smaller file than the one on a normal MS-DOS disk
as a result.

-tony

From other at oryx.us  Wed Feb  3 02:00:07 2016
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2016 02:00:07 -0600
Subject: AIX for IBM system 370
In-Reply-To: <56B056AE.6050806@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAOpB=UMtFs-1=iTCRqPA7bxgbQPQk4KGLgj+xO9krQ+YgKySKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c001d15d48$4d976150$e8c623f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAOpB=UNrrRPHq_bAQiR1q69Wc5F3PDzpbP2BbYjZWh97vPVB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQsnOtjMX8j2iU+56m3N+mUMGLyeRtxh4izTpvoNQk7sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B03281.6050303@shiresoft.com>
 <CAFrGgTQvSeY6SW051XkNB6f=C-aQcdP9OcOc1BrhPwyvvDyz+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B056AE.6050806@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <56B1B387.2040601@oryx.us>



On 02/ 2/16 01:11 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>

>
> Yea, all of the management was done through smit (I think that's the command).

Management done thru smit - true, if you had the hardware to run the X11/CDE 
GUI.  Otherwise, it was smitty (with emphasis on the tty) on green screen.


> Menu
> driven and everything was kept in a database.

AIX, the only Unix with the equivalant of the ms windows registry, the ODC 
database.  Heaven help you if that database becomes corrupted.




From trash80 at internode.on.net  Wed Feb  3 03:38:24 2016
From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:38:24 +1100
Subject: OS help needed please
Message-ID: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>

Seems Windows 98 has got a few mentions on the list of late - must have just
come into the "classic era".

A while ago a good friend approached me as he wanted to get an old game up
and running that he really likes - Recoil (might ring a bell with a few list
folk) - wants the real experience, not the VM experience. 

I'd be happy to help him out anyway but he has thrown a few old machines at
me from time to time rather than see them go to the tip so he definitely
gets help.

The game is quite particular and will only run on Win 98. I've resurrected a
HP e-Vectra that I have (very nice little machine by the way) that has a
serial  on it for Win 98 SE but I really need the "actual" HP Recovery media
for it as I'm having some dramas getting the right video and sound drivers
for it.

I've struck out at HP and have tried a few vendors that still list parts for
this machine but no joy.

Be most grateful if someone can help me out or point me somewhere please.

Thank you!!!




++++++++++
Kevin Parker

++++++++++




From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed Feb  3 04:09:12 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:09:12 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
Message-ID: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I'm trying to boot a Bull DPX/2 and got stuck waiting for NFS to do 
something, at least that is what I believe.

Is there anyone on the list with B.O.S experience that could help me 
bring the sytem up under some kind of single user environment without 
network.

I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a 
prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I 
have. 

However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are 
supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing 
installtion.


/P

From Paul_Koning at Dell.com  Wed Feb  3 11:00:25 2016
From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 17:00:25 +0000
Subject: Mentec manuals
Message-ID: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>

I was looking back at the discussion on what Mentec actually owned, back when it existed.  The discussion on the list suggested that Mentec had a license but did not actually own the IP.  It seems an odd arrangement that doesn't say much for the business skills of those making it, but I suppose it's posssible.

I found that there are some RSTS manuals at www.computinghistory.co.uk with Mentec cover pages.  Among other things, a free for the download RSTS 10.1 internals manual, over 600 pages of good stuff.

The cover has a Mentec logo but no other ownership clues.  I was hoping to see the copyright page to find out whose name appears there.  Unfortunately, the scan omits the copyright page.

Does anyone have any manuals from Mentec?  If yes, does it say "Copyright ... Mentec"?  Or "Copyright ... someone else"?

	paul

From ball.of.john at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 11:11:36 2016
From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 09:11:36 -0800
Subject: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1454436000.97960.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>

>Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never
released on
>CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now
unfortunately)
>and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went
straight
>to the ?metal?).
>
>TTFN - Guy

Nope, AIX 1.3 is readily available. It's over on http://ps-2.kev009.com if
you know where to look along with a rather massive amount of documentation
and (VERY HANDY) installation instructions. I can confirm that it will work
on a stock IBM 8580 and you can get several different flavours of window
system if you wanna roll that way. I put a video on Youtube a few years ago
of a running machine when it was still rather badly configured. I briefly
had it working on the model 55SX as well but because I was not labling the
disks as I wrote them I went out-of-sequence somewhere and frustratingly
couldn't find Disk 15.


-John


From supervinx at libero.it  Wed Feb  3 11:24:08 2016
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2016 18:24:08 +0100
Subject: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>

Il giorno mer, 03/02/2016 alle 09.11 -0800, John Ball ha scritto:
> >Good luck in finding media for AIX PS/2.  As far as I know, it was never
> released on
> >CDROM and the last version I had was ~53 3.5? floppies (long gone now
> unfortunately)
> >and *only* worked on specific PS/2 hardware (no BIOS ? all drivers went
> straight
> >to the ?metal?).
> >
> >TTFN - Guy
> 
> Nope, AIX 1.3 is readily available. It's over on http://ps-2.kev009.com if
> you know where to look along with a rather massive amount of documentation
> and (VERY HANDY) installation instructions. I can confirm that it will work
> on a stock IBM 8580 and you can get several different flavours of window
> system if you wanna roll that way. I put a video on Youtube a few years ago
> of a running machine when it was still rather badly configured. I briefly
> had it working on the model 55SX as well but because I was not labling the
> disks as I wrote them I went out-of-sequence somewhere and frustratingly
> couldn't find Disk 15.
> 
> 
> -John
> 
This is a dual booting PS/2 (OS/2 and AiX), configured using kev009
floppy images and instructions...
http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/IBM/8595/AJF/


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Feb  3 18:17:58 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 17:17:58 -0700
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCT4-+0hs3td35Y+qhpGj42qDY95a8JYpWkkgS+oT5kUw@mail.gmail.com>

Can you take some pictures of that system?  Sounds interesting.  I had a
DPX/20 at one time which was basically an IBM RS/6000.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 3:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I'm trying to boot a Bull DPX/2 and got stuck waiting for NFS to do
> something, at least that is what I believe.
>
> Is there anyone on the list with B.O.S experience that could help me
> bring the sytem up under some kind of single user environment without
> network.
>
> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
> have.
>
> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are
> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing
> installtion.
>
>
> /P
>

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Feb  3 18:17:58 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 17:17:58 -0700
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCT4-+0hs3td35Y+qhpGj42qDY95a8JYpWkkgS+oT5kUw@mail.gmail.com>

Can you take some pictures of that system?  Sounds interesting.  I had a
DPX/20 at one time which was basically an IBM RS/6000.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 3:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I'm trying to boot a Bull DPX/2 and got stuck waiting for NFS to do
> something, at least that is what I believe.
>
> Is there anyone on the list with B.O.S experience that could help me
> bring the sytem up under some kind of single user environment without
> network.
>
> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
> have.
>
> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are
> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing
> installtion.
>
>
> /P
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Feb  3 18:20:48 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 16:20:48 -0800
Subject: BC11A Cable ends
Message-ID: <37594D92-DF9D-4BC9-A353-8A6B65E09045@shiresoft.com>

I just received the BC11A-T variant boards (the ribbon cables come out the ?top??yea not imaginative naming) this afternoon.  I inserted a couple of the ribbon cable connectors on the board and everything looks great!

When I have some time (probably in a couple of weeks) I?ll fire up my 11/40 (to make sure it?s still working after all of this time) and then re-cable it using cables with a pair of BC11A-T ends and some ribbon cable.  I?ll run memory diagnostics on it for a while (I have 128KW of memory on it split between two racks, so this should be a good test) and see how it does vs with the ?standard? BC11A cables.

TTFN - Guy

From james.h.simpson at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 18:56:45 2016
From: james.h.simpson at gmail.com (Jim Simpson)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 17:56:45 -0700
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
Message-ID: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>

Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and recover
the data?  I've found a wealth of BigBoard & BigBoard II data (and lots of
other stuff too) on many different sites, all saved in .IMD format.  Is it
possible to read these files and recover the data instead of writing a
floppy disk with DiskImage?

Thanks, Jim Simpson





From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Feb  3 18:59:11 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 19:59:11 -0500
Subject: Mentec manuals
In-Reply-To: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>
References: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>
Message-ID: <56B2A25F.40608@compsys.to>

 >Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:

>I was looking back at the discussion on what Mentec actually owned, back when it existed.  The discussion on the list suggested that Mentec had a license but did not actually own the IP.  It seems an odd arrangement that doesn't say much for the business skills of those making it, but I suppose it's posssible.
>
>I found that there are some RSTS manuals at www.computinghistory.co.uk with Mentec cover pages.  Among other things, a free for the download RSTS 10.1 internals manual, over 600 pages of good stuff.
>
>The cover has a Mentec logo but no other ownership clues.  I was hoping to see the copyright page to find out whose name appears there.  Unfortunately, the scan omits the copyright page.
>
>Does anyone have any manuals from Mentec?  If yes, does it say "Copyright ... Mentec"?  Or "Copyright ... someone else"?
>
This MIGHT be your answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a V05.07 RT-11 DOC set with over a dozen binders.  Each
binder has about 1000 pages for one or more manuals.  All the
binders have the DEC logo.  All the manuals have the DEC copyright.

The only place the "Compaq" logo appears is for the funny cover pages
which are very thick paper with a window to allow the manual name
to show through.  Those very thick cover pages also used to have the
DEC logo before Mentec was involved.

Overall conclusion:  The manuals are still from DEC - nothing has
changed since replacing the name on the thick paper cover page
without ANY supporting reference to what the "Compaq" logo
refers to may be just the way that Mentec attempted to portray
that Mentec now owned the manual copyrights.

There is ONE exception.  The Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11
was prepared and produced by Mentec in 1998.  This one manual
does have a copyright notice from Mentec!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I would suggest that any manual prepared prior to 1994 which
was approximately when Mentec became involved is purely from
DEC and is still under copyright from DEC.  And further, based
on a notice from DEC concerning manuals which are out of print
(naturally at this point all manuals from DEC are out of print), DEC
gave permission (I don't have a copy of the actual notice - can
someone please provide it) to copy all manuals.

Jerome Fine

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 19:25:15 2016
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:25:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602032022270.4117@z87>

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016, Jim Simpson wrote:

> Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and recover
> the data?  I've found a wealth of BigBoard & BigBoard II data (and lots of
> other stuff too) on many different sites, all saved in .IMD format.  Is it
> possible to read these files and recover the data instead of writing a
> floppy disk with DiskImage?

You can use the IMDU program (part of the ImageDisk package) to convert 
those files to a vanilla sector image.  From there, cpmtools is your 
friend for extracting the files.  IIRC, the BB used the same format as the 
Xerox 820 machines and they'll probably already be a useable diskdef.  If 
not, it's fairly straightforward to write one.



-- 

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 19:57:21 2016
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 19:57:21 -0600
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SG7HG1yRhxSTm4M=oCsoMmvimZCQn5BKfTs4HFC+uvqBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Jim Simpson <james.h.simpson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and recover
> the data?  I've found a wealth of BigBoard & BigBoard II data (and lots of
> other stuff too) on many different sites, all saved in .IMD format.  Is it
> possible to read these files and recover the data instead of writing a
> floppy disk with DiskImage?

This tool is new to me but I'm looking forward to trying it out:

http://simonowen.com/samdisk/formats/

It claims to be able to convert between many formats, including
ImageDisk's IMD.  Might be worth a try.

j

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 20:41:02 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:41:02 -0800
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
Message-ID: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>

So, I figure it's unlikely, but I've been jonesing for a "larger" VAX 
and I'd like to track down an 11/750 (or an 11/730).  If anyone out 
there has one for sale trade (in any condition apart from "pile of 
slag"), let me know.  I have DEC and various other gear for trade.

Thanks as always!
- Josh


From rwiker at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 21:58:40 2016
From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 04:58:40 +0100
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com>


> On 04 Feb 2016, at 03:41 , Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, I figure it's unlikely, but I've been jonesing for a "larger" VAX and I'd like to track down an 11/750 (or an 11/730).  If anyone out there has one for sale trade (in any condition apart from "pile of slag"), let me know.  I have DEC and various other gear for trade.
> 

This may be of interest: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?51013-VAX-11-730-San-Francisco-Bay-Area




From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 22:22:50 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:22:50 -0800
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
 <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B2D21A.9050705@gmail.com>

On 2/3/16 7:58 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote:
>> On 04 Feb 2016, at 03:41 , Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, I figure it's unlikely, but I've been jonesing for a "larger" VAX and I'd like to track down an 11/750 (or an 11/730).  If anyone out there has one for sale trade (in any condition apart from "pile of slag"), let me know.  I have DEC and various other gear for trade.
>>
> This may be of interest: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?51013-VAX-11-730-San-Francisco-Bay-Area
>
>

Thanks for the heads-up!  I'll have to keep an eye on that.

- Josh


From leec2124 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 22:37:25 2016
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 20:37:25 -0800
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <56B2D21A.9050705@gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
 <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com>
 <56B2D21A.9050705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVGKPc2QwrQx3w-P00et0boT5OdpZkm5A7QhJ3bVKPepHw@mail.gmail.com>

Date on the 730 notice is Aug 2009 - I suspect it is long gone by now. :-(

Lee C.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/3/16 7:58 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote:
>
>> On 04 Feb 2016, at 03:41 , Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So, I figure it's unlikely, but I've been jonesing for a "larger" VAX
>>> and I'd like to track down an 11/750 (or an 11/730).  If anyone out there
>>> has one for sale trade (in any condition apart from "pile of slag"), let me
>>> know.  I have DEC and various other gear for trade.
>>>
>>> This may be of interest:
>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?51013-VAX-11-730-San-Francisco-Bay-Area
>>
>>
>>
> Thanks for the heads-up!  I'll have to keep an eye on that.
>
> - Josh
>
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From tingox at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 14:35:07 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 21:35:07 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
> have.
>
> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are
> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing
> installtion.
>

I don't have experience with Bull at all. However, I have some
experience with other limited environments.
Does "echo" work?
If it does, you can try "echo *" as a (poor) substitute for "ls".
Apologies if you already know this.

HTH
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb  3 18:13:19 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:13:19 -0600
Subject: OS help needed please
In-Reply-To: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>
References: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>

>From the dim hazy past..

Didn't HP (USA) maintain a public FTP site loaded with drivers, docs, etc.
for obsolete / unsupported machines? Does anyone know if that resource is
still around?

At least your machine has a tag for Win98, so you know for a +fact+ that
the software set you need is definitely out there, somewhere.. just a
matter of finding it. And again, this isn't ancient history stuff.. support
must have been current through at least 2000 and sometime thereafter.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 3:38 AM, Kevin Parker <trash80 at internode.on.net>
wrote:

> Seems Windows 98 has got a few mentions on the list of late - must have
> just
> come into the "classic era".
>
> A while ago a good friend approached me as he wanted to get an old game up
> and running that he really likes - Recoil (might ring a bell with a few
> list
> folk) - wants the real experience, not the VM experience.
>
> I'd be happy to help him out anyway but he has thrown a few old machines at
> me from time to time rather than see them go to the tip so he definitely
> gets help.
>
> The game is quite particular and will only run on Win 98. I've resurrected
> a
> HP e-Vectra that I have (very nice little machine by the way) that has a
> serial  on it for Win 98 SE but I really need the "actual" HP Recovery
> media
> for it as I'm having some dramas getting the right video and sound drivers
> for it.
>
> I've struck out at HP and have tried a few vendors that still list parts
> for
> this machine but no joy.
>
> Be most grateful if someone can help me out or point me somewhere please.
>
> Thank you!!!
>
>
>
>
> ++++++++++
> Kevin Parker
>
> ++++++++++
>
>
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  3 20:48:11 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:48:11 -0800
Subject: OS help needed please
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>
 <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B2BBEB.9060103@sydex.com>

On 02/03/2016 04:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>> From the dim hazy past..
>
> Didn't HP (USA) maintain a public FTP site loaded with drivers, docs,
> etc. for obsolete / unsupported machines? Does anyone know if that
> resource is still around?
>

HP has gratuitously removed its driver archive from the web.  At least I 
can't find anything.  Probably due to the slice-and-dice of HP 
Enterprise from the (remaining) HP body, whatever's left of it.

I was looking last week for the drivers for the Vectra VL600.  There are 
still web pages that point to it, but th pages now say something to the 
effect of "so sorry, we don't do that anymore"/  And I don't really 
trust the third-party nastyware driver sites.

I wish it were otherwise.  I reiterate that the web is written in sand, 
just waiting for a good gust of wind to obliterate things.

--Chuck


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb  4 00:30:05 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 22:30:05 -0800
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <CAG_uPVGKPc2QwrQx3w-P00et0boT5OdpZkm5A7QhJ3bVKPepHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
 <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com> <56B2D21A.9050705@gmail.com>
 <CAG_uPVGKPc2QwrQx3w-P00et0boT5OdpZkm5A7QhJ3bVKPepHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25A5ADB2-2D64-426F-BCCC-4D8B32094943@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 3, 2016, at 20:37, Lee Courtney <leec2124 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Date on the 730 notice is Aug 2009 - I suspect it is long gone by now. :-(

Where do you see that? The listing states:

"Status: Open 2/1/16 - 02/07/16 23:59:00"


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb  4 00:39:05 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 22:39:05 -0800
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SG7HG1yRhxSTm4M=oCsoMmvimZCQn5BKfTs4HFC+uvqBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
 <CAEfH1SG7HG1yRhxSTm4M=oCsoMmvimZCQn5BKfTs4HFC+uvqBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAE07360-FF40-4B82-BC55-8A24D038579D@nf6x.net>

I've been developing Python code for dealing with .IMD files off and on. It's not complete by any stretch of imagination, but if you're comfortable with Python then you might be able to use it to do what you want:

https://github.com/NF6X/pyImageDisk

At this time, extracting meaningful data would require more coding. Using the provided classes to pull out raw sector data would be easy, but it does not yet have any understanding of filesystems. I do play to add support for at least some filesystems in the future, but at this time the filesystem code is just some nonfunctional skeleton classes that I'm still working on.

The provided command-line utility will at least reveal details about the low level format, such as sector sizes, interleave factors, use of different sector address marks (i.e., the use of DDAM marks on the directory track of some TRS-80 formats), or weird cylinder and head numbers in the headers. It'll also do hex dumps of the entire disk image or individual sectors. And it can change interleave factors and first sector after the index pulse if that might be helpful.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From other at oryx.us  Thu Feb  4 02:15:51 2016
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 02:15:51 -0600
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
Message-ID: <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>

All this AIX 1.x on Intel talk has me wanting to look at it deeper.

Does anyone have AIX 1.3 running on VirtualBox ?

Thanks,

Jerry




On 02/ 3/16 11:24 AM, supervinx wrote:

> This is a dual booting PS/2 (OS/2 and AiX), configured using kev009
> floppy images and instructions...
> http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/IBM/8595/AJF/
>

From jon at jonworld.com  Thu Feb  4 02:18:49 2016
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 09:18:49 +0100
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2=VL3fFQ=MQTiB34Pr+8NXj7jgx0zkkCmJFyg0Tt1ERQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:
> All this AIX 1.x on Intel talk has me wanting to look at it deeper.
>
> Does anyone have AIX 1.3 running on VirtualBox ?
>
> Thanks,

This was talked about a while back. The PS/2 (x86) version of AIX
required some specific hardware with an MCA bus and oddball SCSI chips
that are not emulated in any modern emulator (VMWare, VirtualBox,
etc.) Supposedly there was a later beta version of AIX for x86 that
had support for more standard ISA and SCSI hardware but it never made
it outside IBM.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 04:06:15 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 10:06:15 -0000
Subject: Mentec manuals
In-Reply-To: <56B2A25F.40608@compsys.to>
References: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>
 <56B2A25F.40608@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <003901d15f33$afc10b50$0f4321f0$@gmail.com>

> 
> The only place the "Compaq" logo appears is for the funny cover pages
which
> are very thick paper with a window to allow the manual name to show
> through.  Those very thick cover pages also used to have the DEC logo
before
> Mentec was involved.

Any thing that says "DEC" passed to "Compaq" as Compaq bought DEC lock,
stock and barrel, well excluding Digital India which was never wholly owned
any way,
> 
> Overall conclusion:  The manuals are still from DEC - nothing has changed
> since replacing the name on the thick paper cover page without ANY
> supporting reference to what the "Compaq" logo refers to may be just the
> way that Mentec attempted to portray that Mentec now owned the manual
> copyrights.
> 

As I said Compaq bought DEC. Anything DEC passed to Compaq or 

> There is ONE exception.  The Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11 was
> prepared and produced by Mentec in 1998.  This one manual does have a
> copyright notice from Mentec!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So I would suggest that any manual prepared prior to 1994 which was
> approximately when Mentec became involved is purely from DEC and is still
> under copyright from DEC.  

DEC no longer exists. Its Compaq. (well HP now)

>And further, based on a notice from DEC
> concerning manuals which are out of print (naturally at this point all
manuals
> from DEC are out of print), DEC gave permission (I don't have a copy of
the
> actual notice - can someone please provide it) to copy all manuals.
> 
> Jerome Fine

Dave Wade Knee dave.wade at digital.com


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 04:16:57 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 10:16:57 -0000
Subject: OS help needed please
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>
 <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003b01d15f35$2e07bee0$8a173ca0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> drlegendre .
> Sent: 04 February 2016 00:13
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: OS help needed please
> 
> From the dim hazy past..
> 
> Didn't HP (USA) maintain a public FTP site loaded with drivers, docs, etc.
> for obsolete / unsupported machines? Does anyone know if that resource is
> still around?
> 
> At least your machine has a tag for Win98, so you know for a +fact+ that the
> software set you need is definitely out there, somewhere.. just a matter of
> finding it. And again, this isn't ancient history stuff.. support must have been
> current through at least 2000 and sometime thereafter.
> 

Filezilla still talks to ftp.hp.com. Seems to still have personal stuff in there if you know the file names...

Dave


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 07:08:28 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:08:28 +0100
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 January 2016 at 17:19, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> BTW, are you indicating that Win 98SE _in general_ should only be used for
> retro-computing, or only Win 98SE _in the particular configration you
> described_ should only be used that way?


AFAICS:

At all. Ever.

It's a nearly 20y old piece of code which was notoriously unstable and
insecure when it was new.

Look, I built, installed, ran, maintained & supported MS-DOS-based PCs
for over 20y. I am not biased against DOS. But it's one of the
feeblest OSes ever to sell well.

DOS-based Windows was a bodge, a kludge, a temporary fix because OS/2
bombed and NT took a while to get ready. But NT is a better OS in
every important or material way.

I don't run MS OSes any more. I've moved on. Life's too short. I'm a
domain expert in them: this is why I no longer use them.

I'm typing under Mac OS X (on a 30y old keyboard) and my laptops run
Linux. All require vastly less maintenance and are more stable and
reliable -- as well as much cheaper -- than MS solutions.

But anyone with an ounce of technical knowledge should know better
than to run an old, unmaintained, out-of-support MS OS on any live
Internet-facing machine. Even if it exchanges media with
Internet-facing machines, *no*. Don't do it.

Move on.

Retro computing is a great hobby, even a way of life, but whereas a
decades-old copy of anything from Linux to Multics is as safe today as
it ever was, OSes of the Internet era *cannot* be used safely once
they're well out of date. Old viruses are still out there, waiting to
pounce.

It's enough work fixing up old machines without fighting old malware too.

Don't do it.

Nothing older than Win7 on any Windows PC that accesses the Internet.

This includes email. Yes, Jerome Fine, I'm talking to you, among others.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  4 07:32:16 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 2016 08:32:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: BC11A Cable ends
Message-ID: <20160204133216.A2F6918C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Guy Sotomayor

    > When I have some time .. I'll fire up my 11/40 .. and then re-cable it
    > using cables with a pair of BC11A-T ends and some ribbon cable. I'll
    > run memory diagnostics on it for a while (I have 128KW of memory on it
    > split between two racks, so this should be a good test) and see how it
    > does

Might be interesting to throw a 'scope on a line on each end of the cable,
and see how things look after making it through the cable.

	Noel

From mazzinia at tin.it  Thu Feb  4 08:07:40 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:07:40 +0100
Subject: R: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>

>Retro computing is a great hobby, even a way of life, but whereas a decades-old copy of anything from Linux to Multics is as >safe today as it ever was, OSes of the Internet era *cannot* be used safely once they're well out of date. Old viruses are still >out there, waiting to pounce.

I would disagree on this point. Unix and linux, in all its flavours, had plenty of security fixes in the same timeframe mentioned, so I would not consider them as safe as etc

That they are less obvious to attack, in comparison, is another thing.






From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 08:17:15 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:17:15 +0100
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGp0inTQ3x=Fm0xg00nm-ghGJ_86ZEzVC-_1sKXJFNe_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 February 2016 at 15:07, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
>
> I would disagree on this point. Unix and linux, in all its flavours, had plenty of security fixes in the same timeframe mentioned, so I would not consider them as safe as etc
>
> That they are less obvious to attack, in comparison, is another thing.


Oh yes, true, but you need to think about the roles.

Unix was traditionally mostly used as a /server./ The exploits and
malware are about getting remote access to a server, or at least
taking it offline or rendering it inaccessible.

Windows is primarily a client OS, used for surfing, email, chat,
downloading & running programs, etc.

/Totally/ different usage patterns.

And the vast success of OS X as a client -- now the most successful
closed-source UNIX? of all time, with more installed seats than all
the others ever put together -- compared with the small amount of
malware and very few successful exploits, shows the difference.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb  4 08:17:48 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 09:17:48 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>

At 08:08 AM 2/4/2016, Liam Proven wrote:

>But NT is a better OS in every important or material way.

It is unusable in one important way. This thread began as a discussion of running serial port terminal emulators on a PC. At work I still use some MS-DOS programs (admittedly not terminal emulators) over serial ports. For my purposes (setting up a variety of vintage specialized hardware over RS-232) NT-based operating systems are sometimes unusable because they present the application program with a virtual serial port, and MS-DOS programs running under those operating systems cannot read from or write to the UART registers. Some of the setup programs for that vintage hardware were written before the mid-1990s and access the UART registers, so I have to run those under Win98 or earlier. I have a portable MS-DOS 3.3 machine that I use to set up that vintage hardware.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb  4 08:20:19 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 09:20:19 -0500
Subject: R: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard
  drives?
In-Reply-To: <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204091841.03e03a00@juno.com>

At 09:07 AM 2/4/2016, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:

>... so I would not consider them as safe ...

The closest thing to a "safe" computer is one that is disconnected from all communications links, powered down, and locked in a vault.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Thu Feb  4 08:23:29 2016
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 09:23:29 -0500
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <CA+oaVqw0NwhfsWvb3gnFg93T-VLhiV_tT+6PPgugfajiRRRmiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
 <527579ED-BF11-4891-834C-F49FACB1EC29@gmail.com>
 <56B2D21A.9050705@gmail.com>
 <CAG_uPVGKPc2QwrQx3w-P00et0boT5OdpZkm5A7QhJ3bVKPepHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <25A5ADB2-2D64-426F-BCCC-4D8B32094943@nf6x.net>
 <CA+oaVqyEiSKOkHe8gY1cw-5eg-AGO+3StKF+avr04u=T3L-XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+oaVqw0NwhfsWvb3gnFg93T-VLhiV_tT+6PPgugfajiRRRmiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqz6ZiEG+LARgcHKww9AbWo0CfyyXCozUfyZqyQNqZz_EA@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 4, 2016 01:30, "Mark J. Blair" <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>
> > On Feb 3, 2016, at 20:37, Lee Courtney <leec2124 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Date on the 730 notice is Aug 2009 - I suspect it is long gone by now.
:-(
>
> Where do you see that? The listing states:
>
> "Status: Open 2/1/16 - 02/07/16 23:59:00"
>

Lee must have quickly glanced at the message and seen the join date of the
author and thought it was the date of the message. I've done that a few
times on vintage-computer.com.

Jim

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 08:25:41 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 15:25:41 +0100
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE0TbvbxYJ0kDHqLEqtZYsoKTxz89z0cXDfYkFUNgTUtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 February 2016 at 15:17, Dale H. Cook <radiotest at juno.com> wrote:
> It is unusable in one important way. This thread began as a discussion of running serial port terminal emulators on a PC. At work I still use some MS-DOS programs (admittedly not terminal emulators) over serial ports. For my purposes (setting up a variety of vintage specialized hardware over RS-232) NT-based operating systems are sometimes unusable because they present the application program with a virtual serial port, and MS-DOS programs running under those operating systems cannot read from or write to the UART registers. Some of the setup programs for that vintage hardware were written before the mid-1990s and access the UART registers, so I have to run those under Win98 or earlier. I have a portable MS-DOS 3.3 machine that I use to set up that vintage hardware.

A fair point, but then, one is not going to use MS-DOS to browse the
Web in 2016, right? Even the handful of ancient DOS web browsers can't
handle the modern Web.

There's a big difference between a "daily driver" and a specialist tool.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb  4 08:47:00 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 09:47:00 -0500
Subject: Mentec manuals
In-Reply-To: <003901d15f33$afc10b50$0f4321f0$@gmail.com>
References: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>
 <56B2A25F.40608@compsys.to> <003901d15f33$afc10b50$0f4321f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <510AD5DB-0E3E-479D-8CF1-CAFF67213C8C@comcast.net>


> On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:06 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> The only place the "Compaq" logo appears is for the funny cover pages
> which
>> are very thick paper with a window to allow the manual name to show
>> through.  Those very thick cover pages also used to have the DEC logo
> before
>> Mentec was involved.
> 
> Any thing that says "DEC" passed to "Compaq" as Compaq bought DEC lock,
> stock and barrel, well excluding Digital India which was never wholly owned
> any way,

...and of course, excluding all the bits of DEC that were sold off piecemeal by the butcher CEO before Compaq swooped in to grab the remaining carcass.  Bits like the semiconductor division (to Intel), the networking division (to Cabletron) and possibly others that I've forgotten about.

	paul



From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Feb  4 08:57:26 2016
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 09:57:26 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>



On 2/4/2016 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> Nothing older than Win7 on any Windows 
> PC that accesses the Internet. This 
> includes email.

Well, my 2 cents: I still use WinXP for 
all my primary, workhorse machines.  
Rarely have any issues with it.    Win7 
is ok but annoyingly 
over-user-friendly.    Win 98, though... 
I don't see the point of using it any 
more.  It can't do anything that XP 
can't do far better.

- J.



From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 09:12:18 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:12:18 +0100
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFTDNJFVPoqQ3Yaztw5QTYBCemMGkMRHiMVPewFVCq3hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 February 2016 at 15:57, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
> Well, my 2 cents: I still use WinXP for all my primary, workhorse machines.
> Rarely have any issues with it.

I *really* hope you've applied the registry hack to get EposReady
updates for it, then!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/26/german_tinkerer_gets_around_xpocalypse/

>    Win7 is ok but annoyingly
> over-user-friendly.

Agreed. I don't like the ribbons, the new fake-folders in Explorer --
but it works, it's supported and updated.

>  Win 98, though... I don't see the point of using it
> any more.  It can't do anything that XP can't do far better.

Agreed, as far as Win32 apps go. DOS stuff, though, no. :(

To answer your offlist question, BTW: I am typing on an original Apple
Extended II keyboard attached to a 2011 Mac mini running OS X 10.10,
though an ADB-USB convertor.

My laptops run Ubuntu although I experiment regularly with all the
mainstream contenders. The workhorse is an old, cheap Thinkpad X200
with Ubuntu 14.04, the latest long-term support version. The
desktop-replacement, now sidelined by the Mac, has Ubuntu 15.10,
ArchLinux, CrunchBang and others.

Both the PCs can dual-boot into Win7, although I don't use it as much
as every *year* these days, so this always means a ton of updates
before I can do anything.

The Mac has a Win10 VM on it, just for playing with. I don't like it
much, to be honest. The last Windows version I really liked was
Windows 2000 -- since then, the bloat has piled on for little reward.
XP can be stripped down to nearly as lean as W2K, though. I sometimes
run the TinyXP 3rd party distro inside VMs.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From iamvirtual at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 09:22:40 2016
From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:22:40 -0700
Subject: ISO: VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
References: <56B2BA3E.9030404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADzUgt4sKTXtUXzDRFwEhCW3SG=Ry2qVqVC8DhXhSeAbAG4DwA@mail.gmail.com>

Josh,

Where are you located?  I might have a Vax-11/750 up for sale.
Unfortunately, I did have to pay real money for it, so I am looking for
$500.  I am located near Calgary Alberta Canada.  I can let you know
additional details if you are interested.

--barrym

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> So, I figure it's unlikely, but I've been jonesing for a "larger" VAX and
> I'd like to track down an 11/750 (or an 11/730).  If anyone out there has
> one for sale trade (in any condition apart from "pile of slag"), let me
> know.  I have DEC and various other gear for trade.
>
> Thanks as always!
> - Josh
>
>

From amh at pobox.com  Thu Feb  4 09:43:08 2016
From: amh at pobox.com (Andrew M Hoerter)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 10:43:08 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFTDNJFVPoqQ3Yaztw5QTYBCemMGkMRHiMVPewFVCq3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>
 <CAMTenCFTDNJFVPoqQ3Yaztw5QTYBCemMGkMRHiMVPewFVCq3hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B3718C.3080908@pobox.com>

On 2/4/16 10:12, Liam Proven wrote:

>>     Win7 is ok but annoyingly
>> over-user-friendly.
>
> Agreed. I don't like the ribbons, the new fake-folders in Explorer --
> but it works, it's supported and updated.

Yes, provided you're willing to sift through the available updates and 
hide all the Microsoft spyware... err, "telemetry" patches and the 
increasingly coercive Windows 10 upgrade offers.

For many people, the time cost and risk of doing that has exceeded any 
benefit gained from updating Windows at all.



From ethan at 757.org  Thu Feb  4 10:08:14 2016
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 11:08:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041106260.10920@users.757.org>

> ports. For my purposes (setting up a variety of vintage specialized 
> hardware over RS-232) NT-based operating systems are sometimes unusable 
> because they present the application program with a virtual serial port, 
> and MS-DOS programs running under those operating systems cannot read 
> from or write to the UART registers. Some of the setup programs for that

If you're trying to bitbang the RS232 port to decode POCSAG or something 
perhaps. If you're trying to use old Windows software in more modern 
versions of Windows and can't because the old software doesn't know how to 
set up Windows for direct access to the hardware there is a utility called 
allowio.exe that can be run with your app and you can specify address 
ranges to allow through Windows. I used it running Win98 based laser show 
software that bit banged printer port under XP.


--
Ethan O'Toole


From mazzinia at tin.it  Thu Feb  4 10:11:34 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 17:11:34 +0100
Subject: R: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGp0inTQ3x=Fm0xg00nm-ghGJ_86ZEzVC-_1sKXJFNe_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401d15f55$6993d550$3cbb7ff0$@tin.it>
 <CAMTenCGp0inTQ3x=Fm0xg00nm-ghGJ_86ZEzVC-_1sKXJFNe_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008701d15f66$b83e2b40$28ba81c0$@tin.it>

Eheheh,

except that solaris had a good installed base of workstations too, and Hp-ux tended to have the same (to make some examples). Technically clients 

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Liam Proven
Inviato: gioved? 4 febbraio 2016 15:17
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?

On 4 February 2016 at 15:07, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
>
> I would disagree on this point. Unix and linux, in all its flavours, 
> had plenty of security fixes in the same timeframe mentioned, so I 
> would not consider them as safe as etc
>
> That they are less obvious to attack, in comparison, is another thing.


Oh yes, true, but you need to think about the roles.

Unix was traditionally mostly used as a /server./ The exploits and malware are about getting remote access to a server, or at least taking it offline or rendering it inaccessible.

Windows is primarily a client OS, used for surfing, email, chat, downloading & running programs, etc.

/Totally/ different usage patterns.

And the vast success of OS X as a client -- now the most successful closed-source UNIX? of all time, with more installed seats than all the others ever put together -- compared with the small amount of malware and very few successful exploits, shows the difference.


--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 10:26:47 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:26:47 -0800
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>

Yes, if you download the original imd, in the package there is a simple to use command line utility to do just that. Writing from memory, IMD2BIN.EXE or something like that.
Marc

> On Feb 3, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Jim Simpson <james.h.simpson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and recover
> the data?  I've found a wealth of BigBoard & BigBoard II data (and lots of
> other stuff too) on many different sites, all saved in .IMD format.  Is it
> possible to read these files and recover the data instead of writing a
> floppy disk with DiskImage?
> 
> Thanks, Jim Simpson
> 
> 
> 
> 

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb  4 11:17:01 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 09:17:01 -0800
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+2=VL3fFQ=MQTiB34Pr+8NXj7jgx0zkkCmJFyg0Tt1ERQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAEOZr+2=VL3fFQ=MQTiB34Pr+8NXj7jgx0zkkCmJFyg0Tt1ERQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D916DD1C-9A4C-4C18-A131-474B1C0D9D6C@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 4, 2016, at 12:18 AM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:
>> All this AIX 1.x on Intel talk has me wanting to look at it deeper.
>> 
>> Does anyone have AIX 1.3 running on VirtualBox ?
>> 
>> Thanks,
> 
> This was talked about a while back. The PS/2 (x86) version of AIX
> required some specific hardware with an MCA bus and oddball SCSI chips
> that are not emulated in any modern emulator (VMWare, VirtualBox,
> etc.) Supposedly there was a later beta version of AIX for x86 that
> had support for more standard ISA and SCSI hardware but it never made
> it outside IBM.

Yes, the SCSI adapters that worked on AIX PS/2 were the ?spock? and
?tribble? boards.  They were ?intelligent? adapters.  The OS would build up
a high level list of commands and write the address of the start of the 
command list to the card.  The card would do all the requisite DMAs to get
the command list and data and generate an interrupt when the command
list was complete.

There was some work to take the AIX PS/2 SCSI subsystem (I wrote it) and
make it work on Adaptec SCSI controllers.  However, that work was never
productized.  I was moving off of the AIX PS/2 at that time to help start the
team that would eventually do the IBM Microkernel product and OS/2 for the
PowerPC.

TTFN - Guy

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb  4 11:21:41 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 09:21:41 -0800
Subject: BC11A Cable ends
In-Reply-To: <20160204133216.A2F6918C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160204133216.A2F6918C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <962CBD6E-AFBA-4F3D-BFF0-C7AF09AF7DB5@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Guy Sotomayor
> 
>> When I have some time .. I'll fire up my 11/40 .. and then re-cable it
>> using cables with a pair of BC11A-T ends and some ribbon cable. I'll
>> run memory diagnostics on it for a while (I have 128KW of memory on it
>> split between two racks, so this should be a good test) and see how it
>> does
> 
> Might be interesting to throw a 'scope on a line on each end of the cable,
> and see how things look after making it through the cable.

Yea, that?s probably one of the things that I?ll do to check it out.  I?d probably
want dig out my UA11 to make probing easier.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb  4 12:35:31 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 13:35:31 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE0TbvbxYJ0kDHqLEqtZYsoKTxz89z0cXDfYkFUNgTUtQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
 <CAMTenCE0TbvbxYJ0kDHqLEqtZYsoKTxz89z0cXDfYkFUNgTUtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204132946.03e22980@juno.com>

At 09:25 AM 2/4/2016, Liam Proven wrote:

>A fair point, but then, one is not going to use MS-DOS to browse the Web in 2016, right?

In my world it is impossible for any one computer to do everything that I need to do with a computer, thus my five active PCs and many spares, plus old stuff like my CP/M machines in my personal museum. I don't use an MS-DOS machine to browse, and I don't use an NT-series-OS machine to run MS-DOS programs that need UART register access that NT does not allow.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb  4 12:40:55 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 13:40:55 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B366D6.10107@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204133605.03d86918@juno.com>

At 09:57 AM 2/4/2016, J. wrote:

>I still use WinXP for all my primary, workhorse machines.

So do I. I am fully capable of keeping those machines secure online, something which M$ cannot do.

>Win 98, though... I don't see the point of using it any more.  It can't do anything that XP can't do far better.

As I noted upstream, XP is useless for MS-DOS programs that need access to the UART's registers, and that is something that I sometimes need for work. Some of us have to deal with decades-old hardware that still does what it was intended to do, is still maintainable, and that would be very expensive for a client to replace.

Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Feb  4 12:51:08 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 13:51:08 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041106260.10920@users.757.org>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041106260.10920@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204134220.03f84f70@juno.com>

At 11:08 AM 2/4/2016, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

>If you're trying to bitbang the RS232 port to decode POCSAG or something perhaps.

Not quite - this is not an asynchronous protocol, this is single-purpose software written decades ago to communicate with highly specialized hardware that is still in use.

>If you're trying to use old Windows software in more modern versions of Windows ...

Nope, these are MS-DOS apps that require access to the UART registers. Anyone who thinks that MS-DOS is dead and buried doesn't have to work with some of the vintage (but still in use) technology that I sometimes deal with at work. I am certain that there are many on this list whose vocations involve decades-old hardware that is still in use.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Feb  4 13:02:51 2016
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:02:51 -0700
Subject: Mentec manuals
In-Reply-To: <510AD5DB-0E3E-479D-8CF1-CAFF67213C8C@comcast.net>
References: <5610CE51-02A8-4F0C-BD5F-01C221408307@dell.com>
 <56B2A25F.40608@compsys.to>
 <003901d15f33$afc10b50$0f4321f0$@gmail.com>
 <510AD5DB-0E3E-479D-8CF1-CAFF67213C8C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpQK6M1z5VUBg2QtD==JwOmZJAfWKCRzmRVwUi1Br4hkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:06 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The only place the "Compaq" logo appears is for the funny cover pages
> > which
> >> are very thick paper with a window to allow the manual name to show
> >> through.  Those very thick cover pages also used to have the DEC logo
> > before
> >> Mentec was involved.
> >
> > Any thing that says "DEC" passed to "Compaq" as Compaq bought DEC lock,
> > stock and barrel, well excluding Digital India which was never wholly
> owned
> > any way,
>
> ...and of course, excluding all the bits of DEC that were sold off
> piecemeal by the butcher CEO before Compaq swooped in to grab the remaining
> carcass.  Bits like the semiconductor division (to Intel), the networking
> division (to Cabletron) and possibly others that I've forgotten about.


Storage to NCR who sold it to LSI who sold it to Avago (though I may have
missed a few jumps)

Warner

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Feb  4 13:05:17 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:05:17 -0500
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
Message-ID: <43d0b4.6f39c452.43e4faed@aol.com>

just  for  grins  I  took on of the SMECC e-machines  out of back room and  
fired it up...  yea  Win 98 SE   running  just   great! last time I used  
this particular old  office system was  '07!  heh  it  has a  4   gig  
hardrive 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/4/2016 11:53:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
radiotest at juno.com writes:

At 11:08  AM 2/4/2016, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

>If you're trying to bitbang the  RS232 port to decode POCSAG or something 
perhaps.

Not quite - this is  not an asynchronous protocol, this is single-purpose 
software written decades  ago to communicate with highly specialized hardware 
that is still in  use.

>If you're trying to use old Windows software in more modern  versions of 
Windows ...

Nope, these are MS-DOS apps that require access  to the UART registers. 
Anyone who thinks that MS-DOS is dead and buried  doesn't have to work with 
some of the vintage (but still in use) technology  that I sometimes deal with 
at work. I am certain that there are many on this  list whose vocations 
involve decades-old hardware that is still in  use.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 /  Kaypro 1 / Amstrad  PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html  



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  4 14:29:13 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 12:29:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
 <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041040250.28137@shell.lmi.net>

> > Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and 
> > recover the data?

"Data"??!?
Well, you already have the DATA, every last bit.
Maybe what you want is the INFORMATION, in the form of the FILES.

All too often, people will use "data" to describe the contents, which 
could be at MANY different levels.  And, of couse, some will be shocked, 
amazed, and offended that anybody could possibly interpret something so 
obvious in any way other than as they do.

>From .IMD files, with appropriate additional software, it is possible to 
recreate a "clone" duplicate on a disk, a binary image file of all of the 
bytes on the disk (in the order that they appear on the track), 
as mentioned next:
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote:
> Yes, if you download the original imd, in the package there is a simple 
> to use command line utility to do just that. Writing from memory, 
> IMD2BIN.EXE or something like that.

OR, a copy of one or all of the sectors on the disk (with or without the 
"metadata" of the headers), the files from the disk (requires software 
that understands the filesystem), or the information within the data 
within the files (obvious with a glance at a Wordstar file without 
Wordstar, and grossly and horribly apparent trying to derive text from 
Weird, WordPervert, or any other "modern" word processor)

[And, of course, in situations OTHER than this one, one can not always 
look at the world as "files" consisting of a sequential stream of bytes.]


While it is, of course, obvious [to you] what you mean, you need to be 
aware that some of us have bizarre alternate interpretations of what it 
means to extract the "data" from a disk or disk image.

curiousmarc3 seems to assume that you want a file containing the bytes on 
the disk in the order that they are on the disk (BTW, sectors are not 
always in consecutive order, and files can be fragmented all over a disk), 
whereas I am assuming that you want a bunch of separate files, each of 
which contains the bytes that were in a file on the original disk, and 
rearranged into the sequence that they were within those files on the 
original disk.


>From Data, we can derive Information.
>From Information, we can derive Knowledge.
(That is the "DWI pyramid" of Information Science.)
Most of us have extended that to include:
>From Knowledge, we can derive Enlightenment.  (literally thousands of
independently derived postulates)
A few of us have extended that to include that Data is derived from Chaos, 
and that Chaos is derived from Enlightenment.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From pontus at update.uu.se  Thu Feb  4 14:51:11 2016
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:51:11 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCT4-+0hs3td35Y+qhpGj42qDY95a8JYpWkkgS+oT5kUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAK7dMtCT4-+0hs3td35Y+qhpGj42qDY95a8JYpWkkgS+oT5kUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B3B9BF.7090307@update.uu.se>

It looks like this, this is not ours:

http://www.1000bit.it/lista/dpx2.jpg

On 02/04/2016 01:17 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> Can you take some pictures of that system?  Sounds interesting.  I had a
> DPX/20 at one time which was basically an IBM RS/6000.
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 3:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I'm trying to boot a Bull DPX/2 and got stuck waiting for NFS to do
>> something, at least that is what I believe.
>>
>> Is there anyone on the list with B.O.S experience that could help me
>> bring the sytem up under some kind of single user environment without
>> network.
>>
>> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
>> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
>> have.
>>
>> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are
>> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing
>> installtion.
>>
>>
>> /P
>>


From tony.nicholson at computer.org  Thu Feb  4 16:06:59 2016
From: tony.nicholson at computer.org (Tony Nicholson)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:06:59 +1100
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
Message-ID: <CAPE1CLLE8ru28UgnnDixBy9FDNXsQN5fXUD0FNjstG=rD=T0aw@mail.gmail.com>

[Please excuse the lack of threading - I read cctalk in digest form.]

On Wed, 3 Feb 2016, Jim Simpson wrote:

> Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and recover
> the data?  I've found a wealth of BigBoard & BigBoard II data (and lots of
> other stuff too) on many different sites, all saved in .IMD format.  Is it
> possible to read these files and recover the data instead of writing a
> floppy disk with DiskImage?

Jim (and other cctalkers),

Grab a copy of the SIMH Altairz80 simulator from
http://schorn.ch/altair.html and the zip file of my cpmplus for the
CompuPro Disk1 controller from the Other Operating systems link at
http://schorn.ch/altair_5.php

This supports IMD disks in BB II 1.4Mb (1024byte x 9 sector) format.  You
can attach the IMD file and use the "W" command to extract files to the
host operating system -

mini:cpmplus tony$ altairz80 cpm3bk

Altair 8800 (Z80) simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 4ff1e317

LDRBIOS for SIMH System - V3.2-Y2K 01-AUG-2008
DISK1 8" boot floppy

CPMLDR3 - CP/M V3.0 Loader
Copyright (C) 1982, Digital Research

 BNKBIOS3 SPR  FA00  0600
 BNKBIOS3 SPR  C600  1A00
 RESBDOS3 SPR  F400  0600
 BNKBDOS3 SPR  9800  2E00

 61K TPA

CP/M Plus for SIMH System - V3.2-Y2K 06-AUG-2008
Banked memory
CCP loads from A: and reloads from bank 0
DISK2 dual 20Mb M20 winchesters (A-F)
DISK1 8" (I-L) [BB-II] floppies


A>SETDEF * A: [ORDER=(COM,SUB) DISPLAY UK]

Drive Search Path:
1st Drive            - Default
2nd Drive            - A:

Search Order         - COM, SUB
Program Name Display - On
Date format used     - UK

A>  <CTRL-E>
Simulation stopped, PC: 0FE8F (AND 02h)
sim> att disk1a3 ../s100/BB2-011.IMD
sim> go

A>l:

%FDDISK1 unit 3 is type BigBoard-II 1024x9 Read-Only
L>dir
L: BULLETIN     : BYE      COM : CALL-JAN PQN : COMMANDS HLP : DIR      COM
L: ELAPSED  COM : HELP     COM : HELP     HLP : INFO         : MAGAZINE HLP
L: MBOOT    ASM : NEWS         : PAMSFEB1 0Q6 : PASSWORD COM : RBBS     COM
L: TYPE     COM : USERDISK CQT : WHATSNEW HLP : XYAM     COM : XYAMHELP T
SYSTEM FILE(S) EXIST
L>w
A:W        COM

WRITE V-1.17 (01-Mar-08)  SIMH Interface V004
Usage: WRITE <file name> [B|T]
Copy <file name> to host environment. Default is text, B for binary, T for
Text

Examples
WRITE BDOS.MAC      copy BDOS.MAC as text file
WRITE PIP.COM B     copy PIP.COM as binary file
WRITE PIP.COM       copy PIP.COM as binary file [.COM .REL .DAT imply B]
WRITE TEST.DAT T    copy TEST.DAT as text file
WRITE *.COM         copy all files matching *.COM as binary files
WRITE SRC/BDOS.MAC  copy BDOS.MAC to directory SRC as a text file
WRITE COM/*.COM B   copy *.COM to directory COM as binary files

L>w type.com b
A:W        COM

WRITE V-1.17 (01-Mar-08)  SIMH Interface V004
Write "TYPE.COM" to "TYPE.COM".
3.5kB written (Binary).

If you need to support other CP/M disk formats, the BIOS source files and
submit files to put them together are in the A1: directory on the hard disk
image.  There's also CP/M program to make IMD disk images natively under
CP/M-Plus in A3: (it will span the IMD file across multiple floppies if the
image file is too large). I used this to copy all my 8" floppies (including
BB II ones) to IMD images.

Tony

-- 
Tony Nicholson <tony.nicholson at computer.org>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 16:33:46 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 14:33:46 -0800
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041040250.28137@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
 <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041040250.28137@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <41AFA10C-1AEA-4E73-9ECC-F957FA1D11F7@gmail.com>

Yes, Fred is right, I assumed from your question that you wanted the raw binary data without the .imd sectoring info. To get the files back, you then need a way to mount that binary image on your target machine or emulator so it can read the file system. What is the target machine? What file system is on the disk?
Marc

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 4, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

>> > Is there a utility that will read .IMD diskette archive files and > recover the data?
> [...]
> curiousmarc3 seems to assume that you want a file containing the bytes on the disk in the order that they are on the disk (BTW, sectors are not always in consecutive order, and files can be fragmented all over a disk), whereas I am assuming that you want a bunch of separate files, each of which contains the bytes that were in a file on the original disk, and rearranged into the sequence that they were within those files on the 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin at xenosoft.com

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  4 17:27:18 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 16:27:18 -0700
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>

This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea what
they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.  They are
wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:
https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2

Regards,
Kevin

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 1:15 AM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:

> All this AIX 1.x on Intel talk has me wanting to look at it deeper.
>
> Does anyone have AIX 1.3 running on VirtualBox ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> On 02/ 3/16 11:24 AM, supervinx wrote:
>
> This is a dual booting PS/2 (OS/2 and AiX), configured using kev009
>> floppy images and instructions...
>> http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/IBM/8595/AJF/
>>
>>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb  4 19:37:50 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:37:50 -0600
Subject: that pdp-11/04 with floppy disks...
Message-ID: <003b01d15fb5$d39aec80$7ad0c580$@classiccmp.org>

Delayed response, work has been busy. That deal was passed off to the first
responder so it has likely been claimed. If that deal doesn't work out, I'll
email the next person on the list :)

But do not fret... I just see another user sent me an email today about
wanting to get rid of a machine... will post that one shortly ;)

J



From jsw at ieee.org  Thu Feb  4 19:47:28 2016
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:47:28 -0600
Subject: NeXTstation booting, NetInfo, and NTP
In-Reply-To: <56A62315.3060606@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <56A62315.3060606@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CBA10E7D-A7A4-48F6-853A-1691AE0A3BAD@ieee.org>

On Jan 25, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
> 
> Yesterday I dug out my NexTstation (68040 25MHz slab with 32MB of 100ns SIMMs) which has OpenStep 4.2 for Mach installed.  The lithium battery was flat and it wouldn't boot so I've ordered a replacement and temporarily kludged a pair of alkaline AAs to get it going. So far, so good, though it thinks today is September 6 2001 :-)
> 
> Then I used SimpleNetworkStarter, set to "Use the network, but don't share administrative data".  I've also edited /etc/hostconfig and reslv.conf to sensible values (eg TIME=-NO-) so it now boots quite quickly.
> 
> Is there a way to disable NetInfo completely, and if so will things like DNS lookups still work?
> 
> Is there an easy way to make it get its time/date settings from my NTP server?  During startup it does claim to start netinfo, lookupd, ntpd (see below), then inetd,
> 
> I have an SGI running IRIX which is my DHCP, DNS, and NTP server, and  I plan to set up the NexT to use DHCP to get its IP address etc (it's static ATM).
> 

You cannot disable Netinfo on that version of Openstep.   Its integrated too tightly with the system.   See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetInfo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetInfo>

For NTP turn on TIME=-Automatic-  and in Netinfo add an ip address for the reference to /locations/ntp/server.   You might need to force the first sync via ntp -v -F











From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Thu Feb  4 19:48:33 2016
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 20:48:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mystery system
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


    I'm trying to identify a system which appeared in "The Killer Elite" 
(1975), with a room full of tape drives and a couple of terminals:

http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-1.png
http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-2.png
http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-6.png
http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-9.png

    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on top, 
labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the shots. 
Some sort of IBM 370, perhaps?


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb  4 19:53:19 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:53:19 -0600
Subject: DEC Dual 1173 cpu with rack available
Message-ID: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>

I received the following this morning....

------
I recently acquired a pdp11/73 with dual CPUs and am looking to sell it.
Would you know anyone interested.
I would like this to survive and wish to find it a good home.    I live In
Massachusetts.
------

The person also gave me a picture, which I posted (temporarily) at
http://www.ezwind.net/pdp1173/

This particular machine is too new for my tastes, but the dual cpu (and
status panel) is rather unusual.

If anyone is interested, please email me off-list and I'll forward the
contact details.

Best,

J



From pdaguytom at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 20:05:47 2016
From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 20:05:47 -0600
Subject: HP 9815
Message-ID: <CAG3XYe0SH72+Cy=Z83jdBwi5aYN_TMhp3VAdfOtFBKh44Kmp5g@mail.gmail.com>

I recently picked up an HP 9815s ( was originally an 'a' model but was
upgraded with an 's' cpu board and the option 002 i/o long before me), that
displays the "---------------" when turned on.  I've scrounged through
Google and learned that this particular display is generated by the display
board when it has nothing else better to do to direct its attention.  After
checking that the power supply was putting out the recommended voltages and
chasing the +5v around the cpu board and puzzling that for a bit, I've
checked for activity at the cpu and found no voltage at all being applied
at Vcc the cpu.  I've been studying Tony Duell's schematic for the
9815(thank you Mr. Duell), but have not found a reason why this voltage
might not be present.  Is Vcc switched somewhere?  I done some meager
sleuthing of the traces around the 6800 and think I chased Vcc to a
transistor close by, but need to investigate further this weekend.  Anyone
chased this type of failure on the 9815 or traced out wether this Vcc is
applied at power on or switched by some logic at the power supply board?

Puzzled, but determined,
Tom

From julian at twinax.org  Thu Feb  4 20:14:39 2016
From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 03:14:39 +0100
Subject: Fw: new important message
Message-ID: <00005169e88a$aca48f63$b715cb21$@twinax.org>

Hello!

 

New message, please read <http://haruncetin.com/there.php?qcgav>

 

julian at twinax.org


From julian at twinax.org  Thu Feb  4 20:14:39 2016
From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 03:14:39 +0100
Subject: Fw: new important message
Message-ID: <00005169e88a$aca48f63$b715cb21$@twinax.org>

Hello!

 

New message, please read <http://haruncetin.com/there.php?qcgav>

 

julian at twinax.org


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 20:30:42 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 20:30:42 -0600
Subject: Fw: new important message
In-Reply-To: <00005169e88a$aca48f63$b715cb21$@twinax.org>
References: <00005169e88a$aca48f63$b715cb21$@twinax.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21ChtcAbJ0hFgXDmt9rjv1KvMs1nNgg-A4gyUX_tqeDUg@mail.gmail.com>

spam spam spam spam spam spam

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 8:14 PM, <julian at twinax.org> wrote:

> Hello!
>
>
>
> New message, please read <http://haruncetin.com/there.php?qcgav>
>
>
>
> julian at twinax.org
>
>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb  4 20:36:11 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 20:36:11 -0600
Subject: Fw: new important message
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21ChtcAbJ0hFgXDmt9rjv1KvMs1nNgg-A4gyUX_tqeDUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00005169e88a$aca48f63$b715cb21$@twinax.org>
 <CAA3rs21ChtcAbJ0hFgXDmt9rjv1KvMs1nNgg-A4gyUX_tqeDUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401d15fbd$fc9b2a20$f5d17e60$@classiccmp.org>

Yeah... I'll be checking on exactly how that one made it through.

Similar one made it to my personal classiccmp mailbox a few days ago, figured he had an infection. There are a few email addresses that are whitelisted - members that have earned it ;)

I'll look in to it, apologies.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 8:31 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Fw: new important message

spam spam spam spam spam spam

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 8:14 PM, <julian at twinax.org> wrote:

> Hello!
>
>
>
> New message, please read <http://haruncetin.com/there.php?qcgav>
>
>
>
> julian at twinax.org
>
>



From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  4 20:56:01 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 20:56:01 -0600
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>

On 02/04/2016 07:48 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>
>    I'm trying to identify a system which appeared in "The 
> Killer Elite" (1975), with a room full of tape drives and 
> a couple of terminals:
>
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-1.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-2.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-6.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-9.png
>
>    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an 
> additional box on top, labeled "SMS".  The system itself 
> doesn't appear in any of the shots. Some sort of IBM 370, 
> perhaps?
>
I'm thinking they might be 2420's.  They have a "9" label on 
the head cover.  This is to distinguish 9-track from 7-track 
drives, I don't think they put those labels on 3420 drives.

The drive addresses are 5xx, meaning they are attached to 
channel 5 on the CPU.  That is not impossible on a 360, but 
few 360's could handle that many channels.  The cluster of 
3270's also suggests a 370 system, although they certainly 
could be used on 360's.

The SMS boxes displayed the volume label of the tape to 
mount. Mounting the wrong tape was a BIG problem in large 
systems, so a number of vendors came up with these sorts of 
schemes to try to reduce those errors.

Jon

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 20:57:47 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:57:47 -0500
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Some models of 3420s were 7 track.

--
Will



On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 9:56 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> On 02/04/2016 07:48 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>>
>>
>>    I'm trying to identify a system which appeared in "The Killer Elite"
>> (1975), with a room full of tape drives and a couple of terminals:
>>
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-1.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-2.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-6.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-9.png
>>
>>    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on top,
>> labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the shots. Some
>> sort of IBM 370, perhaps?
>>
> I'm thinking they might be 2420's.  They have a "9" label on the head cover.
> This is to distinguish 9-track from 7-track drives, I don't think they put
> those labels on 3420 drives.
>
> The drive addresses are 5xx, meaning they are attached to channel 5 on the
> CPU.  That is not impossible on a 360, but few 360's could handle that many
> channels.  The cluster of 3270's also suggests a 370 system, although they
> certainly could be used on 360's.
>
> The SMS boxes displayed the volume label of the tape to mount. Mounting the
> wrong tape was a BIG problem in large systems, so a number of vendors came
> up with these sorts of schemes to try to reduce those errors.
>
> Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  4 22:25:54 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 22:25:54 -0600
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com>

On 02/04/2016 08:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> Some models of 3420s were 7 track.
>
>
Yes, I suppose there was a need in some installations to 
handle old, archival tapes.  But, I certainly never saw 
one.  Most sites got rid of their 7-tk stuff as soon as they 
could.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  4 23:22:47 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:22:47 -0800
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56B431A7.4070208@sydex.com>

On 02/04/2016 08:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/04/2016 08:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Some models of 3420s were 7 track.
>>
>>
> Yes, I suppose there was a need in some installations to handle old,
>  archival tapes.  But, I certainly never saw one.  Most sites got rid
> of their 7-tk stuff as soon as they could.

Some 6-bit systems hung around for a very long time.  E.g. CDC CYBER 
170/180.  7-track drives for those never really went out of fashion 
until well into the 1980s.

Here's a 1981 CW article that specifically mentions the CDC 667 in the 
drive inventory of McDonnell Douglas automation.DP center:

http://bit.ly/23MFZOb

--Chuck



From isking at uw.edu  Thu Feb  4 23:26:55 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:26:55 -0800
Subject: DEC Dual 1173 cpu with rack available
In-Reply-To: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ038cLSFE55gmfvCW+=WKwxoyBMQYFT5FJyxhqdx6qy3=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I received the following this morning....
>
> ------
> I recently acquired a pdp11/73 with dual CPUs and am looking to sell it.
> Would you know anyone interested.
> I would like this to survive and wish to find it a good home.    I live In
> Massachusetts.
> ------
>
> The person also gave me a picture, which I posted (temporarily) at
> http://www.ezwind.net/pdp1173/
>
> This particular machine is too new for my tastes, but the dual cpu (and
> status panel) is rather unusual.
>
> If anyone is interested, please email me off-list and I'll forward the
> contact details.
>
> Best,
>
> J
>
>
>
OMG that's sexy... but I'm on the wrong coast.  <sigh>  I really like my
11/73.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb  4 23:30:43 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 23:30:43 -0600
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B431A7.4070208@sydex.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com> <56B431A7.4070208@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56B43383.3050707@pico-systems.com>

On 02/04/2016 11:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/04/2016 08:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 02/04/2016 08:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>>> Some models of 3420s were 7 track.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, I suppose there was a need in some installations to 
>> handle old,
>>  archival tapes.  But, I certainly never saw one.  Most 
>> sites got rid
>> of their 7-tk stuff as soon as they could.
>
> Some 6-bit systems hung around for a very long time.  E.g. 
> CDC CYBER 170/180.  7-track drives for those never really 
> went out of fashion until well into the 1980s.
>
> Here's a 1981 CW article that specifically mentions the 
> CDC 667 in the drive inventory of McDonnell Douglas 
> automation.DP center:
>
> http://bit.ly/23MFZOb
>
I was there on a tour, a few years earlier.  I think they 
still had the model 195 at the time.
A vast facility filled with big blue boxes.  The basement 
had so many 415 Hz UPS's that you had to stick your fingers 
in your ears.

Jon

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb  4 23:38:10 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:38:10 -0800
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <FEE3DBC8-7087-4301-A7ED-5CC01A7BE072@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-04, at 5:48 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>   I'm trying to identify a system which appeared in "The Killer Elite" (1975), with a room full of tape drives and a couple of terminals:
> 
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-1.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-2.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-6.png
> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-9.png
> 
>   The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on top, labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the shots. Some sort of IBM 370, perhaps?

Funny, I've been doing a bit of a Peckinpah retrospective and watched that two nights ago.

Noticed the computer equipment of course but concluded about as much as you did: IBM drives and 3270-ish terminals, hence IBM shop; no CPU visible but 370 era.


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 17:42:41 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 17:42:41 -0600
Subject: OS help needed please
In-Reply-To: <003b01d15f35$2e07bee0$8a173ca0$@gmail.com>
References: <003101d15e66$a17157d0$e4540770$@internode.on.net>
 <CAFjrmd7j80N5MCp=sUf9rAhMVvA58ynYxyzYEuR5yBoObVCXzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01d15f35$2e07bee0$8a173ca0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5RCGzeA=VxfS1yepx05OhssqZERkvEdeDv4PegmcOUHw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey yeah, there it is.. and here I hadn't even bothered to try it.

Don't know if it contains what the OP needs, but at least the site is still
there..

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > drlegendre .
> > Sent: 04 February 2016 00:13
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: OS help needed please
> >
> > From the dim hazy past..
> >
> > Didn't HP (USA) maintain a public FTP site loaded with drivers, docs,
> etc.
> > for obsolete / unsupported machines? Does anyone know if that resource is
> > still around?
> >
> > At least your machine has a tag for Win98, so you know for a +fact+ that
> the
> > software set you need is definitely out there, somewhere.. just a matter
> of
> > finding it. And again, this isn't ancient history stuff.. support must
> have been
> > current through at least 2000 and sometime thereafter.
> >
>
> Filezilla still talks to ftp.hp.com. Seems to still have personal stuff
> in there if you know the file names...
>
> Dave
>
>

From pontus at update.uu.se  Thu Feb  4 14:50:29 2016
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:50:29 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>

On 02/03/2016 09:35 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
>> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
>> have.
>>
>> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You are
>> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the existing
>> installtion.
>>
> I don't have experience with Bull at all. However, I have some
> experience with other limited environments.
> Does "echo" work?
> If it does, you can try "echo *" as a (poor) substitute for "ls".
> Apologies if you already know this.
>
> HTH

Rather obvious, but I hadn't though of it. Thank you. Will try it next time.

/P

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  5 00:10:09 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 22:10:09 -0800
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56B43CC1.9080904@jwsss.com>



On 2/4/2016 6:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/04/2016 07:48 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>>
>>    I'm trying to identify a system which appeared in "The Killer 
>> Elite" (1975), with a room full of tape drives and a couple of 
>> terminals:
>>
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-1.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-2.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-6.png
>> http://q7.neurotica.com/killer-9.png
>>
>>    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on 
>> top, labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the 
>> shots. Some sort of IBM 370, perhaps?
>>
> I'm thinking they might be 2420's.  They have a "9" label on the head 
> cover.  This is to distinguish 9-track from 7-track drives, I don't 
> think they put those labels on 3420 drives.
>
> The drive addresses are 5xx, meaning they are attached to channel 5 on 
> the CPU.  That is not impossible on a 360, but few 360's could handle 
> that many channels.  The cluster of 3270's also suggests a 370 system, 
> although they certainly could be used on 360's.
>
> The SMS boxes displayed the volume label of the tape to mount. 
> Mounting the wrong tape was a BIG problem in large systems, so a 
> number of vendors came up with these sorts of schemes to try to reduce 
> those errors.
>
> Jon
>
>
The 3270's would be tape operator consoles as well.  They could respond 
to tape mount messages as needed on those consoles.  The traffic at some 
point could be configured to be restricted to tape mounts.

Later tape libraries had a couple of 3270 ports connected and would read 
the mount requests, find the tape mount it and the reply to the mount 
message.  This may be in the era where they had consoles there and had 
to respond to the tape mounts manually, not sure.



From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  5 00:16:31 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 22:16:31 -0800
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B43383.3050707@pico-systems.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com> <56B431A7.4070208@sydex.com>
 <56B43383.3050707@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56B43E3F.8010805@jwsss.com>



On 2/4/2016 9:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> I was there on a tour, a few years earlier.  I think they still had 
> the model 195 at the time.
> A vast facility filled with big blue boxes. 
They had two 195's at McAuto in STL.  We may have gone on the same tour, 
probably in 72 or so.  I am not sure if it was organized by the ACM in 
Rolla or if you went at a later time.

A later tour of the new facility had made arrangements for similar real 
estate to the original building, but the main computer room had a small 
cluster of systems in the middle of a big empty room which was quite 
amusing.  And we were in an observation gallery which was actually 
converted raised floor area they converted to office use after the 
original design was well under way.  Almost 1/2 of the space was used 
for offices but was originally going to be computer floor.

Anyway, if this was a facility like the Mc Auto facility we toured there 
was a processor and tape floor, DASD on the next floor down, and the 
basement had systems with printers and power.  The tape library and cpu 
systems was on the top main floor.

This could have been in such a facility.  Mc Auto was designed to be 
vertical so the channel cables could be dropped to storage directors on 
the floor below from systems above.

The printing was done with 360/40's and the like, and was for people who 
needed local printing (and they had a lot of it).

thanks
Jim

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Feb  5 00:31:21 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 22:31:21 -0800
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <41AFA10C-1AEA-4E73-9ECC-F957FA1D11F7@gmail.com>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
 <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041040250.28137@shell.lmi.net>
 <41AFA10C-1AEA-4E73-9ECC-F957FA1D11F7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <030C8E9E-B8FE-4397-BEE6-13114E055E77@nf6x.net>

If you want raw data from an IMD file in some order other than the physical ordering on the original media, my Python package that I linked to previously may be helpful. It may also require some coding, but the supplied classes make it pretty easy for somebody with Python familiarity to access the contents of arbitrary sectors in a .IMD file.

Even without Python programming experience, the command-line utility that comes with the package makes it easy to take a .IMD file, remove sector interleave so that the physical and logical sector ordering are the same, and then write out a new .IMD file to be processed by any other .IMD-aware programs. For example, to convert "foo.imd" to a new file "bar.imd" with no sector interleave:

  imdutil.py --load foo.imd --interleave 0 --save bar.imd

It doesn't understand any filesystems - yet - but it may still be helpful. Documentation is admittedly lacking... the command-line utility has built-in help which can be accessed by the typical -h or --help arguments, and the classes have embedded docstrings which (savvy Python folks) can access with pydoc. And it has a unit test suite which I think tests it all out with reasonable thoroughness.

Here's the --help output from the included utility script, to give y'all an idea of what it does:


~% imdutil.py -h
usage: imdutil.py [-h] [-l FILENAME] [-s FILENAME] [-S] [-D] [-i SKIP]
                  [-k SECTOR_NUM] [-u C.H.S] [-U]

ImageDisk (.IMD) utility version 1.0.0a1
  Copyright (C) 2016 Mark J. Blair, released under GPLv3
  https://github.com/NF6X/pyImageDisk
  https://github.com/NF6X/pyImageDisk

Arguments are processed in the order encountered, with cumulative effects
upon the disk image buffer. The disk image buffer is discarded at program
exit. Arguments may be abbreviated.        

optional arguments:
  -h, --help            show this help message and exit
  -l FILENAME, --load FILENAME
                        Load disk image buffer from file, replacing previous
                        buffer contents.
  -s FILENAME, --save FILENAME
                        Save disk image buffer to file.
  -S, --summary         Print summary of image contents.
  -D, --details         Print detailed description of image contents.
  -i SKIP, --interleave SKIP
                        Interleave sectors with specified skip factor.
  -k SECTOR_NUM, --skew SECTOR_NUM
                        Rotate sector order to place sectors with specified
                        sector number after index pulse.
  -u C.H.S, --dumpsector C.H.S
                        Print hexadecimal dump of sector. Specify the sector
                        in cylinder.head.sector format. Use physical cylinder
                        and head numbers, and logical sector number.
  -U, --dumpall         Print hexadecimal dump of all sectors, in physical
                        order.

Example:
  imdutil.py --load mydisk.imd --summary



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 00:53:50 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 23:53:50 -0700
Subject: .IMD diskette image file recovery
In-Reply-To: <030C8E9E-B8FE-4397-BEE6-13114E055E77@nf6x.net>
References: <56b2a1e8.e5af3c0a.5a0c8.ffff85de@mx.google.com>
 <21508209-4A9B-4003-BA1C-DFC709A55F2F@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602041040250.28137@shell.lmi.net>
 <41AFA10C-1AEA-4E73-9ECC-F957FA1D11F7@gmail.com>
 <030C8E9E-B8FE-4397-BEE6-13114E055E77@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT1zkn=wWv1KSrj0GN_oeDLosWLT315TMc9tZzRk=iRDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 11:31 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> If you want raw data from an IMD file in some order other than the physical ordering on the original media, my Python package that I linked to previously may be helpful. It may also require some coding, but the supplied classes make it pretty easy for somebody with Python familiarity to access the contents of arbitrary sectors in a .IMD file.

Excellent timing for your message. I was just thinking about Python
code to access imd files, and that I might have to spend some time
writing such, and there it is. It's like Christmas! Woo-hoo!

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  5 02:11:13 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 00:11:13 -0800
Subject: DEC Dual 1173 cpu with rack available
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ038cLSFE55gmfvCW+=WKwxoyBMQYFT5FJyxhqdx6qy3=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAKtEJ038cLSFE55gmfvCW+=WKwxoyBMQYFT5FJyxhqdx6qy3=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B45921.5040004@jwsss.com>



On 2/4/2016 9:26 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> OMG that's sexy... but I'm on the wrong coast.  <sigh>  I really like my
> 11/73.
I've already got 2 individual systems which this appears to be.  The 
other thing is that I think that is a 5mb or 10mb removable over a hard 
drive arrangement for disk drive.

Very nice.  Also on the opposite coast.

I just managed to fill out a system like this today, with a KDJ 
processor.  I'd like to know what the removable drive subsystem is, as 
it looks familiar.

Thanks
Jim

From ed at groenenberg.net  Fri Feb  5 00:28:45 2016
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 07:28:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <32077.81.30.38.129.1454653725.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>

Hello Pontus.

As far as I remember, DPX/2 uses AT&T System 5 rel. 0 with some additions
in the terminal database for the specific Bull terminals.

So, basically all standard command could be find in the usual places.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.
BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz

On Thu, February 4, 2016 21:50, Pontus wrote:
> On 02/03/2016 09:35 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
>>> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
>>> have.
>>>
>>> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You
>>> are
>>> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the
>>> existing
>>> installtion.
>>>
>> I don't have experience with Bull at all. However, I have some
>> experience with other limited environments.
>> Does "echo" work?
>> If it does, you can try "echo *" as a (poor) substitute for "ls".
>> Apologies if you already know this.
>>
>> HTH
>
> Rather obvious, but I hadn't though of it. Thank you. Will try it next
> time.
>
> /P
>


From rwiker at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 06:38:10 2016
From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:38:10 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <32077.81.30.38.129.1454653725.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>
 <32077.81.30.38.129.1454653725.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
Message-ID: <CANPmQ-BCtBpyNPc354vqeaLwYMhj0PmJBra2=Hu2=F-e=C2NFg@mail.gmail.com>

This was from an install floppy, which means that it had (probably) only
mounted a mini-root file system, and was (again, probably) running a shell
with restricted functionality.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 7:28 AM, E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> wrote:

> Hello Pontus.
>
> As far as I remember, DPX/2 uses AT&T System 5 rel. 0 with some additions
> in the terminal database for the specific Bull terminals.
>
> So, basically all standard command could be find in the usual places.
>
> Ed
> --
> Ik email, dus ik besta.
> BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
>
> On Thu, February 4, 2016 21:50, Pontus wrote:
> > On 02/03/2016 09:35 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
> >>> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
> >>> have.
> >>>
> >>> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You
> >>> are
> >>> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the
> >>> existing
> >>> installtion.
> >>>
> >> I don't have experience with Bull at all. However, I have some
> >> experience with other limited environments.
> >> Does "echo" work?
> >> If it does, you can try "echo *" as a (poor) substitute for "ls".
> >> Apologies if you already know this.
> >>
> >> HTH
> >
> > Rather obvious, but I hadn't though of it. Thank you. Will try it next
> > time.
> >
> > /P
> >
>
>

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 06:56:25 2016
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 07:56:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:

> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea what
> they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.  They are
> wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:

> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2

Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a 
legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.


-- 

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 07:01:53 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:01:53 +0100
Subject: Can Windows 98SE run on an Intel I7 with SATA hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20160204132946.03e22980@juno.com>
References: <20160131161956.136B318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHnFBqqGGGqvSm1EGq+6NkPT8xZ5eOFtRkJ9awK96qqJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204090751.03e09858@juno.com>
 <CAMTenCE0TbvbxYJ0kDHqLEqtZYsoKTxz89z0cXDfYkFUNgTUtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7.0.1.0.2.20160204132946.03e22980@juno.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE5bBYD5NaGambDqTLRewbGC8p13q1d+oetzErGXcA+yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 February 2016 at 19:35, Dale H. Cook <radiotest at juno.com> wrote:
> In my world it is impossible for any one computer to do everything that I need to do with a computer, thus my five active PCs and many spares, plus old stuff like my CP/M machines in my personal museum. I don't use an MS-DOS machine to browse, and I don't use an NT-series-OS machine to run MS-DOS programs that need UART register access that NT does not allow.


Then you will be fine.

But you are refusing to address the actual point here: people choosing
to use long-obsolete versions of Windows for everyday mainstream use,
which is suicidally risky.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb  5 07:04:33 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:04:33 +0000
Subject: HP 9815
In-Reply-To: <CAG3XYe0SH72+Cy=Z83jdBwi5aYN_TMhp3VAdfOtFBKh44Kmp5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG3XYe0SH72+Cy=Z83jdBwi5aYN_TMhp3VAdfOtFBKh44Kmp5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5D2C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> I recently picked up an HP 9815s ( was originally an 'a' model but was
> upgraded with an 's' cpu board and the option 002 i/o long before me), that
> displays the "---------------" when turned on.  I've scrounged through
> Google and learned that this particular display is generated by the display
> board when it has nothing else better to do to direct its attention.  After
> checking that the power supply was putting out the recommended voltages and
> chasing the +5v around the cpu board and puzzling that for a bit, I've
> checked for activity at the cpu and found no voltage at all being applied
> at Vcc the cpu.  I've been studying Tony Duell's schematic for the
> 9815(thank you Mr. Duell), but have not found a reason why this voltage
> might not be present.  Is Vcc switched somewhere?  I done some meager
> sleuthing of the traces around the 6800 and think I chased Vcc to a
> transistor close by, but need to investigate further this weekend.  Anyone
> chased this type of failure on the 9815 or traced out wether this Vcc is
> applied at power on or switched by some logic at the power supply board?

I am sure that Vcc to the CPU is not switched. It is just the system +5V rail. This 
comes in over the 4 wire cable from the PSU board and is then distributed over
the CPU board and via the inter-board connectors to the keyboard/display
interface. The 2 transistors near the CPU are the active pull-ups for the clock
lines.

You have re-connected that 4 wire cable when testing? You can leave the 2 ribbon 
cables for the I/O assembly unplugged, but the 4 wire cable, soldered to the CPU
board and plugged into the PSU/printer board in the base of the machine is the
power feed to all the electronics on the keyboard (CPU, memory, etc).

If you have 5V on the CPU board but not at the CPU it pretty much has to be an
open trace or via.

-tony

From mazzinia at tin.it  Fri Feb  5 07:57:20 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:57:20 +0100
Subject: R: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>

Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Steven Hirsch
Inviato: venerd? 5 febbraio 2016 13:56
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2

On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:

> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea 
> what they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.  
> They are wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:

> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2

Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a
legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.


-- 


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Feb  5 08:39:52 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:39:52 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <CANPmQ-BCtBpyNPc354vqeaLwYMhj0PmJBra2=Hu2=F-e=C2NFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>
 <32077.81.30.38.129.1454653725.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <CANPmQ-BCtBpyNPc354vqeaLwYMhj0PmJBra2=Hu2=F-e=C2NFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160205143952.GA23667@Update.UU.SE>

Yes.

The primary reaspn I'm working with this system is because I 
want to give it away to someone with more knowledge and more 
importantly, more time.

But I need to remove some sensitive data first. Wipeing the 
whole disk  is doable but not prefered.

It's just scsi disks so if there is any other system, perhaps 
emulated, that can read and write the file system formay that 
might be a viable option.

What system might be able to do that?

/P

On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 01:38:10PM +0100, Raymond Wiker wrote:
> This was from an install floppy, which means that it had (probably) only
> mounted a mini-root file system, and was (again, probably) running a shell
> with restricted functionality.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 7:28 AM, E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Pontus.
> >
> > As far as I remember, DPX/2 uses AT&T System 5 rel. 0 with some additions
> > in the terminal database for the specific Bull terminals.
> >
> > So, basically all standard command could be find in the usual places.
> >
> > Ed
> > --
> > Ik email, dus ik besta.
> > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
> >
> > On Thu, February 4, 2016 21:50, Pontus wrote:
> > > On 02/03/2016 09:35 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> I have a OS install kit with bootable floppies and I managed to get a
> > >>> prompt using the "boot_unix" floppy and following the manuals that I
> > >>> have.
> > >>>
> > >>> However, not even "ls" would work from this prompt, only "cat". (You
> > >>> are
> > >>> supposed to enter "os_install", but I don't want to mess up the
> > >>> existing
> > >>> installtion.
> > >>>
> > >> I don't have experience with Bull at all. However, I have some
> > >> experience with other limited environments.
> > >> Does "echo" work?
> > >> If it does, you can try "echo *" as a (poor) substitute for "ls".
> > >> Apologies if you already know this.
> > >>
> > >> HTH
> > >
> > > Rather obvious, but I hadn't though of it. Thank you. Will try it next
> > > time.
> > >
> > > /P
> > >
> >
> >

From pdaguytom at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 09:03:26 2016
From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:03:26 -0600
Subject: HP 9815
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5D2C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAG3XYe0SH72+Cy=Z83jdBwi5aYN_TMhp3VAdfOtFBKh44Kmp5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5D2C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAG3XYe0dbn2Ap201EG39mCe52ZpuF=Z-N_kpGgOBt0fotUR-BA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tony,

Yes that was top of 1st things to do list, was make an extension cable.
I've double checked that I have +5v, -5v and 12v on the cpu board side of
the plug.  Yes I left the i/o cables unplugged. The cpu board actually is
pretty well kept, didn't notice any corrosion or physical damage.   I'll do
more tracing this weekend to see if I can find the problem.

Tom
On Feb 5, 2016 7:06 AM, "tony duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
> > I recently picked up an HP 9815s ( was originally an 'a' model but was
> > upgraded with an 's' cpu board and the option 002 i/o long before me),
> that
> > displays the "---------------" when turned on.  I've scrounged through
> > Google and learned that this particular display is generated by the
> display
> > board when it has nothing else better to do to direct its attention.
> After
> > checking that the power supply was putting out the recommended voltages
> and
> > chasing the +5v around the cpu board and puzzling that for a bit, I've
> > checked for activity at the cpu and found no voltage at all being applied
> > at Vcc the cpu.  I've been studying Tony Duell's schematic for the
> > 9815(thank you Mr. Duell), but have not found a reason why this voltage
> > might not be present.  Is Vcc switched somewhere?  I done some meager
> > sleuthing of the traces around the 6800 and think I chased Vcc to a
> > transistor close by, but need to investigate further this weekend.
> Anyone
> > chased this type of failure on the 9815 or traced out wether this Vcc is
> > applied at power on or switched by some logic at the power supply board?
>
> I am sure that Vcc to the CPU is not switched. It is just the system +5V
> rail. This
> comes in over the 4 wire cable from the PSU board and is then distributed
> over
> the CPU board and via the inter-board connectors to the keyboard/display
> interface. The 2 transistors near the CPU are the active pull-ups for the
> clock
> lines.
>
> You have re-connected that 4 wire cable when testing? You can leave the 2
> ribbon
> cables for the I/O assembly unplugged, but the 4 wire cable, soldered to
> the CPU
> board and plugged into the PSU/printer board in the base of the machine is
> the
> power feed to all the electronics on the keyboard (CPU, memory, etc).
>
> If you have 5V on the CPU board but not at the CPU it pretty much has to
> be an
> open trace or via.
>
> -tony
>

From tingox at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 10:16:34 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:16:34 +0100
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> wrote:
>
>    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on top,
> labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the shots. Some
> sort of IBM 370, perhaps?

Funny that the SMS box shows "INNPUT" - it looks like it was written
by a Norwegian with limited English skills.
(Norwegian "inn" is the same as English "in")
:-)

-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 10:21:53 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:21:53 +0100
Subject: StackExchange retrocomputing forum
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHtxTZk7Y36rsCjqZPNEJzhf7TmReutKfyj5ZeHqP8BPQ@mail.gmail.com>

This now has enough followers to move on to the next stage of the
approvals process -- gathering enough example questions...

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/94441/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  5 10:26:17 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:26:17 +0100
Subject: DEC Dual 1173 cpu with rack available
In-Reply-To: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <004801d15fb7$fd313750$f793a5f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS36F9F59E2E6F657C8E9A5786D20@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jay West 
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 2:53 AM 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Subject: DEC Dual 1173 cpu with rack available 

I received the following this morning....
------
I recently acquired a pdp11/73 with dual CPUs and am looking to sell it.
Would you know anyone interested.
I would like this to survive and wish to find it a good home.    I live In
Massachusetts.
------
The person also gave me a picture, which I posted (temporarily) at
http://www.ezwind.net/pdp1173/

---------
Interesting.   I never saw a "corporate rack"of that height before.
Approx 1 meter high is common, this one is not.
The "computer status" panel seems to be made by the owner,
I don't think it is originally made by DEC. Could be wrong though.

If somebody has a small (approx 1" to 1.5" ?)  "filler panel" like
the ones above and beneath that "computer status" panel collecting
dust, send me an email. I could use one!

- Henk



From tingox at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 10:28:51 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:28:51 +0100
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today

the URL works fine here.


> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Steven Hirsch
> Inviato: venerd? 5 febbraio 2016 13:56
> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Oggetto: Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
>
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>
>> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea
>> what they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.
>> They are wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:
>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2
>
> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a
> legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.
>
>
> --
>



-- 
mvh
Torfinn

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb  5 10:41:14 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:41:14 -0600
Subject: pdp 11/04 and dual pdp 11/73
Message-ID: <004301d16034$09cdc060$1d694120$@classiccmp.org>

The "PDP-11/04 and floppy disk" I posted already was claimed by a
listmember. But after the fact, the owner sent me a picture. The listmember
who is getting it is getting a pretty nice system. One of the dec mid-height
cabinets that has the sloped front at the top. RX02 at the top, 11/04 under
that, and dec filler panels. Nice DEC magenta insignia on the slope at the
top front. Very nice.

Also - the dual 11/73 rack system has been claimed by another list member.

Best,

J



From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Feb  5 11:03:04 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:03:04 -0800
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B4D5C8.6020407@jwsss.com>



On 2/5/2016 8:16 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Mike Loewen<mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>  wrote:
>> >
>> >    The drives appear to be IBM 3420s, but with an additional box on top,
>> >labeled "SMS".  The system itself doesn't appear in any of the shots. Some
>> >sort of IBM 370, perhaps?
> Funny that the SMS box shows "INNPUT" - it looks like it was written
> by a Norwegian with limited English skills.
> (Norwegian "inn" is the same as English "in")
A friend who worked on a system with the SMS device software sent this:

They're 3420s with the SMS boxes on top. The SMS boxes were hooked to a 
controller that looked like a console to the 370. The console got tape 
messages and would display which tape volumes were to be mounted on each 
drive.

The picture with a volume named INNPUT is someones idea of a joke, since 
tape volume names were 6  characters. The volumes had to be labeled with 
a utility and JCL had to be written to call for the volume.

The tape label utility was IEHINITT.

Thanks
Jim

From other at oryx.us  Fri Feb  5 11:06:15 2016
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 11:06:15 -0600
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 w/additional info [LONG]  - WAS::::Re: AIX
 for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <56B4D687.5040704@oryx.us>

Just checked the URL again, its still working fine for me.

Please see additional notes below.




On 02/ 5/16 06:56 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:

>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2
>
> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a legitimate
> web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.
>
>



Just a little follow up.  I haven't been able to make a lot of progress on this 
yet, but I have made some.  I use OpenIndiana, one of the more popular Solaris 
based distro's as my desktop, and I pulled down the source code for Bochs. 
Current version is 2.6.8 .

I'm a new/never used Bochs user, and I was happy that it compiled easily, not 
even any warnings.  Nothing too exotic on the ./configure line, but I did 
compile my binary with both X11 and SDL capabilities.

I started going thru the Bochs docs, and although some of it was pretty basic 
stuff, putting together a .bochsrc file for AIX 1.3 appeared as it would have a 
pretty steep learning curve, and there wasn't much in the original setup 
document/html (Google URL above) file about this, aside from this::

....................
a ~/.bochsrc including:

     8MB RAM
     boot floppy 0xaa55 check turned off
....................

I reached out to GLee over IRC, his preferred contact method, via comments on 
his contact page.  It turned out that he wasn't the original document author.
He did reach out to the original document author and passed along my request for 
the contents of his .bochsrc file.

That information is located here:

http://hup.hu/node/95061

Here is also a cut-n-paste of the information.   Hope this helps anyone else who 
is working on this in parallel with me.

Jerry

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

$ cat ./bochsrc
# configuration file generated by Bochs
plugin_ctrl: unmapped=1, biosdev=1, speaker=0, extfpuirq=1, gameport=1, 
pci_ide=0, acpi=0, ioapic=1
config_interface: textconfig
display_library: x
memory: host=32, guest=8
romimage: file="/usr/share/bochs/BIOS-bochs-latest"
vgaromimage: file="/usr/share/bochs/VGABIOS-lgpl-latest"
boot: floppy, disk
floppy_bootsig_check: disabled=1
floppya: type=1_44, 1_44="./atboot1.dd", status=inserted
# no floppyb
ata0: enabled=1, ioaddr1=0x1f0, ioaddr2=0x3f0, irq=14
ata0-master: type=disk, mode=flat, translation=auto, path="./980x10x17.chs", 
cylinders=980, heads=10, spt=17, biosdetect=auto, model="PS2X850"
ata1: enabled=0
ata2: enabled=0
ata3: enabled=0
parport1: enabled=1, file=""
parport2: enabled=0
com1: enabled=1, mode=null, dev=""
com2: enabled=1, mode=null, dev=""
com3: enabled=0
com4: enabled=0
usb_uhci: enabled=0
usb_ohci: enabled=0
i440fxsupport: enabled=0
vga_update_interval: 50000
vga: extension=vbe
cpu: count=1, ips=4000000, reset_on_triple_fault=1, ignore_bad_msrs=1
cpuid: cpuid_limit_winnt=0, mmx=1, sse=sse2, xapic=1, sep=1, aes=0, xsave=0, 
movbe=0, 1g_pages=0
print_timestamps: enabled=0
# no gdb stub
port_e9_hack: enabled=1
text_snapshot_check: enabled=0
private_colormap: enabled=0
clock: sync=none, time0=local
# no cmosimage
ne2k: enabled=1, ioaddr=0x300, irq=9, mac=fe:fd:de:ad:be:ef, ethmod=null, 
ethdev=xl0, script=none
pnic: enabled=0
sb16: enabled=0
# no loader
log: -
logprefix: %t%e%d
panic: action=ask
error: action=report
info: action=report
debug: action=ignore
pass: action=fatal
keyboard_type: mf
keyboard_serial_delay: 250
keyboard_paste_delay: 100000
keyboard_mapping: enabled=0, map=
user_shortcut: keys=none
mouse: enabled=0, type=ps2
$

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 11:07:47 2016
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:07:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>
> the URL works fine here.

Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It 
renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such 
problems lately.


>> -----Messaggio originale-----
>> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Steven Hirsch
>> Inviato: venerd? 5 febbraio 2016 13:56
>> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Oggetto: Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
>>
>> On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>>
>>> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea
>>> what they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.
>>> They are wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:
>>
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2
>>
>> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a
>> legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> mvh
> Torfinn
>

-- 

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  5 11:17:25 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 11:17:25 -0600
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <56B43E3F.8010805@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <56B40F41.9080501@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfKC6OGTiDVdUNo2HC3WGb25B=sba=ZbqgCwOxoUym1Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B42452.7010300@pico-systems.com> <56B431A7.4070208@sydex.com>
 <56B43383.3050707@pico-systems.com> <56B43E3F.8010805@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <56B4D925.1020504@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2016 12:16 AM, Jim Stephens wrote:
>
>
> On 2/4/2016 9:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> I was there on a tour, a few years earlier.  I think they 
>> still had the model 195 at the time.
>> A vast facility filled with big blue boxes. 
> They had two 195's at McAuto in STL.  We may have gone on 
> the same tour, probably in 72 or so.  I am not sure if it 
> was organized by the ACM in Rolla or if you went at a 
> later time.
>
Yes, it quite possibly COULD have been when I was at Rolla.

Jon

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 11:32:59 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:32:59 +0100
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>>
>>
>> the URL works fine here.
>
>
> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
> problems lately.

What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.

Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.

Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 11:34:17 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:34:17 +0100
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHj01OTOi5wg+vRzz=yOwjG8VwO7LOfDbHpO_D02irg1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 February 2016 at 17:16, Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> wrote:
> (Norwegian "inn" is the same as English "in")
> :-)

Og "i" ogs?, er det ikke sant?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Feb  5 11:34:59 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 09:34:59 -0800
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <DCD0F351-5ED9-46C4-9AAF-70026CE7D197@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 5, 2016, at 4:56 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> 
>> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea what
>> they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.  They are
>> wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:
> 
>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2
> 
> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.
> 
> 
Works fine for me (OS X 10.11.2, Safari 9.0.2).

TTFN - Guy


From rwiker at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 11:38:41 2016
From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:38:41 +0100
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <DCD0F351-5ED9-46C4-9AAF-70026CE7D197@shiresoft.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <DCD0F351-5ED9-46C4-9AAF-70026CE7D197@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CFE0D696-15BD-4A07-AF59-97CBC174B7E6@gmail.com>


> On 05 Feb 2016, at 18:34 , Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 4:56 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>> 
>>> This comes up often and usually with a lot of people that have no idea what
>>> they are talking about chiming in that you are stupid for asking.  They are
>>> wrong, HW emulation is not that difficult:
>> 
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2
>> 
>> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.
>> 
>> 
> Works fine for me (OS X 10.11.2, Safari 9.0.2).

validator.w3.org does not think it's a particularly great example of HTML coding:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Frhdisk0%2Funix%2Faix%2Faixps2&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

From tingox at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 11:46:55 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:46:55 +0100
Subject: Mystery system
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHj01OTOi5wg+vRzz=yOwjG8VwO7LOfDbHpO_D02irg1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602042045370.56910@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <CAJ_iqtYckZhRuNjwaYxn9thcdTRbSttdH+XAZZnVfnuvyujWSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHj01OTOi5wg+vRzz=yOwjG8VwO7LOfDbHpO_D02irg1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtbPe+WB+M1FV8buyDXjUpd43=_HOWVoskOiu4JA+yKo8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 February 2016 at 17:16, Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> wrote:
>> (Norwegian "inn" is the same as English "in")
>> :-)
>
> Og "i" ogs?, er det ikke sant?

det stemmer. :-)

>
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)



-- 
mvh
Torfinn

From ed at groenenberg.net  Fri Feb  5 10:22:59 2016
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:22:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>


While getting though some stuff, I did find a 800Bpi 9 track tape
with Oregon Pascal V2.0 for RSX.

Anybody interested in it? Free to get, only postage fee would be nice.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.
BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Feb  5 12:24:26 2016
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:24:26 +0000
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B4E8DA.6050303@dunnington.plus.com>


On 05/02/2016 17:32, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>>> the URL works fine here.

>> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
>> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
>> problems lately.
>
> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.
>
> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.

Also works fine in Firefox 43 under Win 10 and Win 7.  So evidently not 
a Firefox bug and not an IE-specific page.

-- 
Pete

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Fri Feb  5 12:59:24 2016
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:59:24 -0500
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
Message-ID: <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

Hi,

I'd like it if still available.

I'll certainly reimburse you for postage (and a beverage or two of your
choice as well.)

Thanks!

Todd

* E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> [160205 13:02]:
> 
> While getting though some stuff, I did find a 800Bpi 9 track tape
> with Oregon Pascal V2.0 for RSX.
> 
> Anybody interested in it? Free to get, only postage fee would be nice.
> 
> Ed
> --
> Ik email, dus ik besta.
> BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
> 

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Fri Feb  5 13:30:35 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 20:30:35 +0100
Subject: Bull DPX/2 and B.O.S. help wanted.
In-Reply-To: <20160205143952.GA23667@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20160203100912.GG6935@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtZ9Vb8JoL2AUauvuNZXjugy1rofyfy6L12xZJSSt51-tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B3B995.7030908@update.uu.se>
 <32077.81.30.38.129.1454653725.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <CANPmQ-BCtBpyNPc354vqeaLwYMhj0PmJBra2=Hu2=F-e=C2NFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160205143952.GA23667@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <1454700635.421.63.camel@agj.net>

fre 2016-02-05 klockan 15:39 +0100 skrev Pontus Pihlgren: 
> Yes.
> 
> The primary reaspn I'm working with this system is because I 
> want to give it away to someone with more knowledge and more 
> importantly, more time.
> 
> But I need to remove some sensitive data first. Wipeing the 
> whole disk  is doable but not prefered.
> 
> It's just scsi disks so if there is any other system, perhaps 
> emulated, that can read and write the file system formay that 
> might be a viable option.
> 
> What system might be able to do that?
> 
> /P

Can Solaris 2 mount an SysV file system ? (or SunOS 4)


From cruff at ruffspot.net  Fri Feb  5 13:15:17 2016
From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:15:17 -0700
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
Message-ID: <B8C0B81C-0A5F-4C0D-8F53-BB76A209CB18@ruffspot.net>

>> https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2 <https://sites.google.com/site/rhdisk0/unix/aix/aixps2>
> 
> Is anyone else having issues with that URL?  I get a quick flash of a 
> legitimate web page before the browser fills up with ASCII garbage.

No, it loaded fine on my browser.

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb  5 13:42:45 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 14:42:45 -0500
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
Message-ID: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>

All ?

Does anyone know of an on-line archive of Heathkit manuals pertaining to the H11 (LSI-11) Heathkit computer? I haven?t been able to produce much that?s useful from Googling, so I thought I?d ask.

Let me know.

Thanks!

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 14:09:17 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:09:17 -0600
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20FOJm92bC61aAdu10hF+H2S64QzG5wvWRXUiKMR97_Jg@mail.gmail.com>

Scanned a good chunk of the set can dig it out when I get home.my
webservers Down or I'd link u
On Feb 5, 2016 2:07 PM, "Richard Cini" <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:

> All ?
>
> Does anyone know of an on-line archive of Heathkit manuals pertaining to
> the H11 (LSI-11) Heathkit computer? I haven?t been able to produce much
> that?s useful from Googling, so I thought I?d ask.
>
> Let me know.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rich
>
> --
> Rich Cini
> Collector of Classic Computers
> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
> http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
>
>

From Gary at realtimecomp.com  Fri Feb  5 14:11:35 2016
From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 20:11:35 +0000
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD21@SERVER.RealTime.local>

Rich,

I think I have a complete paper set, but not scanned.  Is there something in particular you're looking for that I can scan?

Gary
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 2:42 PM
To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals

All ?

Does anyone know of an on-line archive of Heathkit manuals pertaining to the H11 (LSI-11) Heathkit computer? I haven?t been able to produce much that?s useful from Googling, so I thought I?d ask.

Let me know.

Thanks!

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32





From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb  5 14:26:36 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 15:26:36 -0500
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD21@SERVER.RealTime.local>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
 <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD21@SERVER.RealTime.local>
Message-ID: <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>

Gary/Adrian ?

	Thanks! Good to be back on-list ? somehow I lost the subscription.

	I?m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn?t come with any manuals.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32







On 2/5/16, 3:11 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Gary L. Messick" <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Gary at realtimecomp.com> wrote:

>Rich,
>
>I think I have a complete paper set, but not scanned.  Is there something in particular you're looking for that I can scan?
>
>Gary
>________________________________________
>From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net]
>Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 2:42 PM
>To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
>
>All ?
>
>Does anyone know of an on-line archive of Heathkit manuals pertaining to the H11 (LSI-11) Heathkit computer? I haven?t been able to produce much that?s useful from Googling, so I thought I?d ask.
>
>Let me know.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Rich
>
>--
>Rich Cini
>Collector of Classic Computers
>Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
>http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
>http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
>
>
>
>


From Gary at realtimecomp.com  Fri Feb  5 14:31:23 2016
From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 20:31:23 +0000
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>,
 <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD8B@SERVER.RealTime.local>

Rich,

I should have the assembly manual for the H-11.

There is also an H-11A.  The H-11 had a Quad-width LSI-11, and the H-11A had a double-width CPU.  Also, the H-11A had a third switch on the front for the LTC (Line Time Clock).  I *think* there were minor Power Supply differences also.

Do you know which one you are getting?

Gary
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 3:26 PM
To: CCTalk
Subject: Re: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals

Gary/Adrian ?

        Thanks! Good to be back on-list ? somehow I lost the subscription.

        I?m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn?t come with any manuals.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 14:42:08 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:42:08 -0500
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
 <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD21@SERVER.RealTime.local>
 <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimngaxFN0OqXQwYEPD505c+CZ7vVFtkm=PGibNmowOGAPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:
>         I?m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn?t come with any manuals.

I'd also like to get any available materials.  I have an H-11
(possibly an -A, I'd have to go back and check) with an H-27 floppy
drive that I've never gotten working with it.  The unit works fine
with an RXV11 or RXV12, so I'm looking at the H-27 controller as the
source of my woes.  I have lots of experience with real DEC Qbus
modules and nearly no experience with Heath modules.

-ethan

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb  5 14:54:22 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 15:54:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD8B@SERVER.RealTime.local>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
 <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
 <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD8B@SERVER.RealTime.local>
Message-ID: <4712B129-E6BB-4E23-90C6-4ECF6C7D07E6@verizon.net>

Gary -- it has two switches but according to the description it had two cards inside with two edge connectors each. The person said 11A. 

The front panel also has a custom toggle on it -- maybe power. Not sure. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:31 PM, Gary L. Messick <Gary at realtimecomp.com> wrote:
> 
> Rich,
> 
> I should have the assembly manual for the H-11.
> 
> There is also an H-11A.  The H-11 had a Quad-width LSI-11, and the H-11A had a double-width CPU.  Also, the H-11A had a third switch on the front for the LTC (Line Time Clock).  I *think* there were minor Power Supply differences also.
> 
> Do you know which one you are getting?
> 
> Gary
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net]
> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 3:26 PM
> To: CCTalk
> Subject: Re: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
> 
> Gary/Adrian ?
> 
>        Thanks! Good to be back on-list ? somehow I lost the subscription.
> 
>        I?m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn?t come with any manuals.
> 
> Rich
> 
> --
> Rich Cini
> Collector of Classic Computers
> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
> http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 15:06:47 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:06:47 -0600
Subject: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
In-Reply-To: <4712B129-E6BB-4E23-90C6-4ECF6C7D07E6@verizon.net>
References: <E5DF321D-0BF2-4E28-97CF-3B23018619D6@verizon.net>
 <7E0A59D4-00D1-4E3A-B4C1-1EDC52849BB0@verizon.net>
 <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924382FD8B@SERVER.RealTime.local>
 <4712B129-E6BB-4E23-90C6-4ECF6C7D07E6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21BToumhVWg6hcHyCwO4QDag=rW25L18UGohWgnwzD0+A@mail.gmail.com>

Those I don't have scanned got some scans of some of the xray s of the
cards though
On Feb 5, 2016 2:54 PM, "Richard Cini" <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:

> Gary -- it has two switches but according to the description it had two
> cards inside with two edge connectors each. The person said 11A.
>
> The front panel also has a custom toggle on it -- maybe power. Not sure.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:31 PM, Gary L. Messick <Gary at realtimecomp.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Rich,
> >
> > I should have the assembly manual for the H-11.
> >
> > There is also an H-11A.  The H-11 had a Quad-width LSI-11, and the H-11A
> had a double-width CPU.  Also, the H-11A had a third switch on the front
> for the LTC (Line Time Clock).  I *think* there were minor Power Supply
> differences also.
> >
> > Do you know which one you are getting?
> >
> > Gary
> > ________________________________________
> > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [
> rich.cini at verizon.net]
> > Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 3:26 PM
> > To: CCTalk
> > Subject: Re: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
> >
> > Gary/Adrian ?
> >
> >        Thanks! Good to be back on-list ? somehow I lost the subscription.
> >
> >        I?m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I
> might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the
> LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn?t come with any manuals.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > --
> > Rich Cini
> > Collector of Classic Computers
> > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
>

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 15:58:40 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 16:58:40 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>

I have two intermittently functional 8" floppy drives that I debugged
to the best of my ability, and as far as I've been able to tell their
problems must be limited to the circuitry that deals with the actual
magnetic interface with the disk. The intercommunication seems normal
and the head load solenoids fire, but after that the drive often
aborts the process, presumably because it wasn't able to read data
properly. I think the signal for reading the disk-rotation hole even
fires correctly.

The drives are Siemens FDD 100-8 drives used in an S-100 bus system,
and controlled by a Jade "Double D" disk controller. The machine was
in a functional state when stored, and I have known-good copies of
disks that I've been able to boot from at least a few times. (Unless
the drives somehow damaged them.)

Can someone knowledgeable about 8" floppy drives share information
about how these things were serviced and maintained, and what sort of
procedures were required to test and calibrate them?

Information I've picked up through osmosis leads me to believe that
there's a floppy disk with a special pattern on it, and you use
specialized test equipment to check the flux off the head and dial it
into proper settings. I suspect there the drive has trim pots or
similar that allow for this.

So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when they
don't work?

Thanks,
Dan

From cctalk at snarc.net  Fri Feb  5 16:21:43 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:21:43 -0500
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
Message-ID: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>

Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7 
this year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just 
like before).

We * just * signed the contract today. I'll email again when we have the 
web site ready and stuff.

Primary organizer out there will be Erik Klein.

From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 16:26:03 2016
From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 14:26:03 -0800
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
In-Reply-To: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
References: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAG0ySYu=KutMmHjuhXN68BKjmZXNoJ8Fon=cqOjbS9X6Pkj8rg@mail.gmail.com>

Can't Wait!

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net> wrote:

> Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7
> this year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just like
> before).
>
> We * just * signed the contract today. I'll email again when we have the
> web site ready and stuff.
>
> Primary organizer out there will be Erik Klein.
>

From lists at loomcom.com  Fri Feb  5 16:27:44 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 16:27:44 -0600
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
In-Reply-To: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
References: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <20160205222744.GA10204@loomcom.com>

* On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 05:21:43PM -0500, Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net> wrote:
> Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August
> 6-7 this year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif.,
> just like before).

Oh sure, now that I'm no longer living in the Bay Area! :)

Seriously though, great news, and congrats. I'll try to be there.

-Seth

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 16:40:31 2016
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:40:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051738400.4117@z87>

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>>>
>>>
>>> the URL works fine here.
>>
>>
>> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
>> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
>> problems lately.

> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.

> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.

> Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
> user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
> product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
> rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
> Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.

I just love this list.  Sorry to have troubled you with my "remarkably and 
totally wrong assumption" - won't happen again.


-- 

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 16:40:37 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:40:37 -0500
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
In-Reply-To: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
References: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmn=ZuxPr9s7nT6e_D7MwvBagLimOH_dU+_NfXBVDaouQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net> wrote:
> Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7 this
> year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just like
> before).

Send pictures.  I'm already double booked that weekend this year) and
I'd love to see what I missed.

-ethan

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 16:54:44 2016
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:54:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>

I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded 
interactions on this list.

Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express 
my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly 
polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.


-- 

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  5 17:40:25 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 15:40:25 -0800
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2016 01:58 PM, Dan K wrote:

> So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
> they don't work?

I've got both the FDD-100s and the double-sided cousin, the FDD-200. 
They're very similar in construction; good German engineering, cast 
metal faceplates, etc.  They really should not be drifting out of 
alignment.  Bitsavers has some useful documents on them.

First off, IIRC, these are leadscrew-type positioner drives.  One issue 
dogging these is that grease on the leadscrew can get filthy with dirt 
or harden, preventing smooth operation of the positioner.  Make sure 
that the leadscrew is clean--use a mild solvent such as kerosene if it's 
hardened.  Re-lube with a lightweight grease or oil--you just don't want 
the carriage to "stick" in its travel.

Make sure that the track 0 sensor is clean--the same for the index sensor.

Remember that floppy drive bus topology is open-collector, which implies 
that the "receiving"  (far) end be terminated with a pullup resistor 
(usually 150 ohms to +5 on 8" drives).  Very often, this is in the form 
of a DIP resistor network.  If you're missing it, operation is going to 
be erratic.

Since you're dealing with single-sided floppies, check the condition of 
the side 1 pressure pad--the glue on these often dries out and the pad 
falls off.  The pad itself resembles a billiard cue tip.

Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment 
disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation 
getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive) 
alignment disk.

Hopefully, this will get you started.  Just remember that dirt in any 
disk drive is the Devil's playground.

--Chuck




From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Feb  5 17:49:51 2016
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 17:49:51 -0600
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <20160205234950.GA20970@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 05:54:44PM -0500, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
> interactions on this list.

Sorry to hear that.  I fight against such things on other lists I am on,
but some weeks I also wonder why.

mcl

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 18:19:11 2016
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:19:11 -0600
Subject: New Scans: HP Micro-Computer Interest Group
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHsG0kgsGSpfC5akkYkp4crUNMgJ6KRWfCs+kZb8usfsw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all - I have uploaded some new documents related to an employee
club at Hewlett Packard that sought to explore these new
"micro-computers" and, given the evidence at hand, design their own
(apparently a Z80-based CPU card of their own design, an S-100
backplane and an HP case.)  The story as I know it is incomplete and
I'm sure more details will be filled in soon by those who were there.
The documents were lent to me for scanning by the daughter of an HP
employee.  I'll be returning them to her soon; I believe she will be
offering them to CHM as a donation.

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FHP/HPMCIG

The docs are divided into directories as follows:

Micro Minutes:  30 issues of the newsletter of the Hewlett-Packard
Micro-Computer Interest Group, various dates between 1979 and 1983.
Some issues undated.
Non-HP_Docs:  Documents from other vendors that were likely used by
the club.  I'll place them in their own vendor directories also but I
thought leaving copies here help give us an idea of what the club was
working with or discussing at the time
Club_Notes: Emails, memos, handwritten notes, receipts and other
club-related ephemera

I thought it spoke well of HP as a company at that time that they
supported an employee hobbyist organization.  Enjoy digging through a
unique bit of early Silicon Valley history.

-j

-- 
silent700.blogspot.com
Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area:
http://chiclassiccomp.org

From lists at loomcom.com  Fri Feb  5 18:40:27 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:40:27 -0600
Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 systems & software
Message-ID: <20160206004027.GA17992@loomcom.com>

(n.b.: Sorry for the "wanted" spam from me. I think this is the last
one for a while!)

I have access to a friend's AT&T 3B2 Model 400 for exploratory and
reverse-engineering work, but I would really like to get a system
of my own.

To that end, if you have an AT&T 3B2 you'd like to part with, please
drop me a line. Happy to pay fair market prices, or consider some
trades if you prefer that (I have a lot of DEC Qbus stuff)

I'm also still looking for more documentation. I especially wish I had
schematics, and any docs related to writing drivers. Anything that
would be useful in documenting the 3B2 internals would be lovely.

Thanks!

-Seth

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Feb  5 18:47:37 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 19:47:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <20160205234950.GA20970@lonesome.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <20160205234950.GA20970@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <201602060047.TAA04805@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly
>> worded interactions on this list.
> Sorry to hear that.

What linimon@ said.

> I fight against such things on other lists I am on, but some weeks I
> also wonder why.

I just now noticed something.

I've noticed people mentioning instances of, shall we say, "excessive
bluntness" occasionally here.  But, significantly more often than not,
I never saw the, er, "excessively blunt" message itself.

Usually, as in this case, this turns out to be because (for unrelated
reasons) I go to some lengths to avoid seeing anything that was sent
through gmail, even laundered through mailing lists.  (This loses me
some mail I regret losing, but, so far, not enough to make me take out
those blocks.  And note that it's not people using gmail addresses I
block, but mail actually sent through gmail.)

I'm wondering if perhaps this correlation works well enough for other
people that dropping list mail sent through gmail could help preserve
the S/N ratio of the list for those who find it low enough that
dropping off the list entirely is looking attractive.

(_Why_ that test correlates that way for me is an interesting, but only
tangentially related, question.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Fri Feb  5 17:23:31 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:23:31 -0500
Subject: Looking for a file
Message-ID: <6592215753613049498@unknownmsgid>

Does anyone out there have access to an HP-UX 11.x system?  I am
looking for a ROM image file for the FX-e video card to help me write
an OpenBSD frame buffer driver for this platform.

Thanks,
Bryan

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  5 19:03:25 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 01:03:25 +0000
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

If belt driven ( suspect most 8 incher are ), make sure
the pulleys are smooth and clean.
Often old belts will lose a little small lump of rubber that
stick to the pulley. This will cause mis-reads.
Make sure the belt is tight and not slipping.
The pressure pad can get lumps on it from disk crud.
The pad must be flat. It can not be cleaned with a
clear disk that is double sided.
Solvents don't work well. I often find a dull knife edge works
well to get crusted gunk off.
The rest, Chuck had stated. Don't mess with
tracking or fiddle with pots that you are not setup properly
to adjust.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 3:40 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?

On 02/05/2016 01:58 PM, Dan K wrote:

> So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
> they don't work?

I've got both the FDD-100s and the double-sided cousin, the FDD-200.
They're very similar in construction; good German engineering, cast
metal faceplates, etc.  They really should not be drifting out of
alignment.  Bitsavers has some useful documents on them.

First off, IIRC, these are leadscrew-type positioner drives.  One issue
dogging these is that grease on the leadscrew can get filthy with dirt
or harden, preventing smooth operation of the positioner.  Make sure
that the leadscrew is clean--use a mild solvent such as kerosene if it's
hardened.  Re-lube with a lightweight grease or oil--you just don't want
the carriage to "stick" in its travel.

Make sure that the track 0 sensor is clean--the same for the index sensor.

Remember that floppy drive bus topology is open-collector, which implies
that the "receiving"  (far) end be terminated with a pullup resistor
(usually 150 ohms to +5 on 8" drives).  Very often, this is in the form
of a DIP resistor network.  If you're missing it, operation is going to
be erratic.

Since you're dealing with single-sided floppies, check the condition of
the side 1 pressure pad--the glue on these often dries out and the pad
falls off.  The pad itself resembles a billiard cue tip.

Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment
disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation
getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive)
alignment disk.

Hopefully, this will get you started.  Just remember that dirt in any
disk drive is the Devil's playground.

--Chuck




From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Fri Feb  5 19:39:07 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 20:39:07 -0500
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <201602060047.TAA04805@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <20160205234950.GA20970@lonesome.com>
 <201602060047.TAA04805@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56B54EBB.2020409@compsys.to>

 >Mouse wrote:

>>>I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly
>>>worded interactions on this list.
>>>      
>>>
>>Sorry to hear that.
>>
>What linimon@ said.
>
>>I fight against such things on other lists I am on, but some weeks I
>>also wonder why.
>>
>I just now noticed something.
>
>I've noticed people mentioning instances of, shall we say, "excessive
>bluntness" occasionally here.  But, significantly more often than not,
>I never saw the, er, "excessively blunt" message itself.
>
>Usually, as in this case, this turns out to be because (for unrelated
>reasons) I go to some lengths to avoid seeing anything that was sent
>through gmail, even laundered through mailing lists.  (This loses me
>some mail I regret losing, but, so far, not enough to make me take out
>those blocks.  And note that it's not people using gmail addresses I
>block, but mail actually sent through gmail.)
>
>I'm wondering if perhaps this correlation works well enough for other
>people that dropping list mail sent through gmail could help preserve
>the S/N ratio of the list for those who find it low enough that
>dropping off the list entirely is looking attractive.
>
>(_Why_ that test correlates that way for me is an interesting, but only
>tangentially related, question.)
>
In my case it might be that my focus is so narrow that I don't really
care about or react to all the "excessive bluntness" that is now seen
very rarely after the last bad batch was shut down by Jay.

In general, I find that the "DELETE" key to be the best solution since
it takes only a second for topics I don't care about at all and only a
dozen seconds for posts that I find unhelpful.

And since I receive so much help for the very few things that I really
need like help for a new system, it is really very reasonable to spend
the few minutes each day to sift out the chaff (at least what I regard
as chaff - not at all identical for anyone else of course) from the good
stuff.

I rarely reply to this sort of speculation, but I regard Mouse's opinions
quite highly, in addition to Tony Duell whom I regard the most.

Jerome Fine

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 20:02:59 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:02:59 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>

>First off, IIRC, these are leadscrew-type positioner drives.  One issue dogging these is that grease on the leadscrew can get filthy with dirt or harden, preventing smooth operation of the positioner.  Make sure that the leadscrew is clean--use a mild solvent such as kerosene if it's hardened.  Re-lube with a lightweight grease or oil--you just don't want the carriage to "stick" in its travel.

Good point about this. One drive was quite smooth on that long lead
screw, the other was very stiff. I thought that it was trying to move
it and drawing too much current, leading to a shutdown or error state.
It loosened up with manual turning and I used some light machine oil
and worked it in. It now moves about as easily as the other, so I
don't think that this is still the issue.

>Make sure that the track 0 sensor is clean--the same for the index sensor.

I believe I probed these with my oscilloscope and verified they were
toggling, but it wouldn't hurt to check again.

>Remember that floppy drive bus topology is open-collector, which implies that the "receiving"  (far) end be terminated with a pullup resistor (usually 150 ohms to +5 on 8" drives).  Very often, this is in the form of a DIP resistor network.  If you're missing it, operation is going to be erratic.

Another great tip. This plagued me for a long time, until I realized
that I had only one drive connected, and it had the resistor network
IC unpopulated. I borrowed it from the other drive (they were on the
same wire, so I suppose that only one resistor network is necessary)
and that's what led to my initial success.

>Since you're dealing with single-sided floppies, check the condition of the side 1 pressure pad--the glue on these often dries out and the pad falls off.  The pad itself resembles a billiard cue tip.

You're going right down the list of issues I ran into! One of the
pressure pads was nonexistent, but the other is in good condition. One
issue I had was that the head load plastic assembly that brings the
media in conformity with the sensor was broken and held together with
a twisty-tie. I used some CAD software to design a replacement and had
it 3D printed: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?49265-Owning-and-operating-an-S-100-bus-computer/page4

It seems to do the job, but I still don't have a replacement pad. That
seems to be okay however, because on one drive the head load solenoid
doesn't appear to come down far enough to push the disk very much. I
don't think I've ever seen the pad on either drive come down enough to
physically touch the disk--maybe just brushing it, barely. What might
cause this?

-Dan


On 2/5/16, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> If belt driven ( suspect most 8 incher are ), make sure
> the pulleys are smooth and clean.
> Often old belts will lose a little small lump of rubber that
> stick to the pulley. This will cause mis-reads.
> Make sure the belt is tight and not slipping.
> The pressure pad can get lumps on it from disk crud.
> The pad must be flat. It can not be cleaned with a
> clear disk that is double sided.
> Solvents don't work well. I often find a dull knife edge works
> well to get crusted gunk off.
> The rest, Chuck had stated. Don't mess with
> tracking or fiddle with pots that you are not setup properly
> to adjust.
> Dwight
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis
> <cclist at sydex.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 3:40 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
>
> On 02/05/2016 01:58 PM, Dan K wrote:
>
>> So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
>> they don't work?
>
> I've got both the FDD-100s and the double-sided cousin, the FDD-200.
> They're very similar in construction; good German engineering, cast
> metal faceplates, etc.  They really should not be drifting out of
> alignment.  Bitsavers has some useful documents on them.
>
> First off, IIRC, these are leadscrew-type positioner drives.  One issue
> dogging these is that grease on the leadscrew can get filthy with dirt
> or harden, preventing smooth operation of the positioner.  Make sure
> that the leadscrew is clean--use a mild solvent such as kerosene if it's
> hardened.  Re-lube with a lightweight grease or oil--you just don't want
> the carriage to "stick" in its travel.
>
> Make sure that the track 0 sensor is clean--the same for the index sensor.
>
> Remember that floppy drive bus topology is open-collector, which implies
> that the "receiving"  (far) end be terminated with a pullup resistor
> (usually 150 ohms to +5 on 8" drives).  Very often, this is in the form
> of a DIP resistor network.  If you're missing it, operation is going to
> be erratic.
>
> Since you're dealing with single-sided floppies, check the condition of
> the side 1 pressure pad--the glue on these often dries out and the pad
> falls off.  The pad itself resembles a billiard cue tip.
>
> Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment
> disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation
> getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive)
> alignment disk.
>
> Hopefully, this will get you started.  Just remember that dirt in any
> disk drive is the Devil's playground.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 20:05:03 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:05:03 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0Wh3eLhwmKrH=8xZZFT=YCtRO8X3DN47-f0oLOOa=ieDg@mail.gmail.com>

>If belt driven ( suspect most 8 incher are ), make sure the pulleys are smooth and clean.
Often old belts will lose a little small lump of rubber that stick to
the pulley. This will cause mis-reads. Make sure the belt is tight and
not slipping.

Hmm I think the pulley mechanism seemed okay, but I'll check for dirt
and make sure the rubber seems to be sitting properly.

>The pressure pad can get lumps on it from disk crud. The pad must be flat. It can not be cleaned with a clear disk that is double sided. Solvents don't work well. I often find a dull knife edge works well to get crusted gunk off.

Is this the fuzzy little pad that is on the end of the plastic
mechanism that pushes down on the disk? I feel like a knife would cut
the fuzzy material, and one of the pads is missing for me (see above)

>The rest, Chuck had stated. Don't mess with tracking or fiddle with pots that you are not setup properly to adjust.

I'd definitely like to avoid that. Especially for any mechanism that
has a paint marking indicating it was calibrated at the factory

-Dan

On 2/5/16, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> If belt driven ( suspect most 8 incher are ), make sure
> the pulleys are smooth and clean.
> Often old belts will lose a little small lump of rubber that
> stick to the pulley. This will cause mis-reads.
> Make sure the belt is tight and not slipping.
> The pressure pad can get lumps on it from disk crud.
> The pad must be flat. It can not be cleaned with a
> clear disk that is double sided.
> Solvents don't work well. I often find a dull knife edge works
> well to get crusted gunk off.
> The rest, Chuck had stated. Don't mess with
> tracking or fiddle with pots that you are not setup properly
> to adjust.
> Dwight
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis
> <cclist at sydex.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 3:40 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
>
> On 02/05/2016 01:58 PM, Dan K wrote:
>
>> So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
>> they don't work?
>
> I've got both the FDD-100s and the double-sided cousin, the FDD-200.
> They're very similar in construction; good German engineering, cast
> metal faceplates, etc.  They really should not be drifting out of
> alignment.  Bitsavers has some useful documents on them.
>
> First off, IIRC, these are leadscrew-type positioner drives.  One issue
> dogging these is that grease on the leadscrew can get filthy with dirt
> or harden, preventing smooth operation of the positioner.  Make sure
> that the leadscrew is clean--use a mild solvent such as kerosene if it's
> hardened.  Re-lube with a lightweight grease or oil--you just don't want
> the carriage to "stick" in its travel.
>
> Make sure that the track 0 sensor is clean--the same for the index sensor.
>
> Remember that floppy drive bus topology is open-collector, which implies
> that the "receiving"  (far) end be terminated with a pullup resistor
> (usually 150 ohms to +5 on 8" drives).  Very often, this is in the form
> of a DIP resistor network.  If you're missing it, operation is going to
> be erratic.
>
> Since you're dealing with single-sided floppies, check the condition of
> the side 1 pressure pad--the glue on these often dries out and the pad
> falls off.  The pad itself resembles a billiard cue tip.
>
> Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment
> disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation
> getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive)
> alignment disk.
>
> Hopefully, this will get you started.  Just remember that dirt in any
> disk drive is the Devil's playground.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb  5 21:52:59 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 21:52:59 -0600
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2016 08:02 PM, Dan K wrote:
> Another great tip. This plagued me for a long time, until 
> I realized that I had only one drive connected, and it had 
> the resistor network IC unpopulated. I borrowed it from 
> the other drive (they were on the same wire, so I suppose 
> that only one resistor network is necessary) and that's 
> what led to my initial success. 
Yes, the terminating resistor pack should only be in the 
last drive on the cable.
> It seems to do the job, but I still don't have a 
> replacement pad. That seems to be okay however, because on 
> one drive the head load solenoid doesn't appear to come 
> down far enough to push the disk very much. I don't think 
> I've ever seen the pad on either drive come down enough to 
> physically touch the disk--maybe just brushing it, barely. 
> What might cause this?
Probably wear, or maybe warpage of the parts over time.  The 
pressure pad should be fairly soft, usually a felt-like 
material. It needs to push the media into contact with the 
read-write head. Without it, you will occasionally get good 
enough contact to read a sector header or even a whole 
sector, but it won't be consistent. The data will come and 
go as the disk rotates.

Jon

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  5 21:31:30 2016
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 22:31:30 -0500
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B56912.9030705@sbcglobal.net>

On 02/05/2016 12:32 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>>>
>>>
>>> the URL works fine here.
>>
>>
>> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
>> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
>> problems lately.
>
> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.
>
> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.

	And here in Firefox -current on Ubuntu Linux...

> Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
> user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
> product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
> rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
> Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.
>


-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
            Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  5 21:35:33 2016
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 22:35:33 -0500
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051738400.4117@z87>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051738400.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <56B56A05.1050806@sbcglobal.net>

On 02/05/2016 05:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the URL works fine here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
>>> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
>>> problems lately.
>
>> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.
>
>> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.
>
>> Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
>> user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
>> product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
>> rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
>> Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.
>
> I just love this list.  Sorry to have troubled you with my "remarkably
> and totally wrong assumption" - won't happen again.
>
>

What? You're getting cranky because you got called out as being wrong? 
Relax buddy.

-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
            Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 23:46:33 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 00:46:33 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.

-Dan

On 2/5/16, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> On 02/05/2016 08:02 PM, Dan K wrote:
>> Another great tip. This plagued me for a long time, until
>> I realized that I had only one drive connected, and it had
>> the resistor network IC unpopulated. I borrowed it from
>> the other drive (they were on the same wire, so I suppose
>> that only one resistor network is necessary) and that's
>> what led to my initial success.
> Yes, the terminating resistor pack should only be in the
> last drive on the cable.
>> It seems to do the job, but I still don't have a
>> replacement pad. That seems to be okay however, because on
>> one drive the head load solenoid doesn't appear to come
>> down far enough to push the disk very much. I don't think
>> I've ever seen the pad on either drive come down enough to
>> physically touch the disk--maybe just brushing it, barely.
>> What might cause this?
> Probably wear, or maybe warpage of the parts over time.  The
> pressure pad should be fairly soft, usually a felt-like
> material. It needs to push the media into contact with the
> read-write head. Without it, you will occasionally get good
> enough contact to read a sector header or even a whole
> sector, but it won't be consistent. The data will come and
> go as the disk rotates.
>
> Jon
>

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Feb  5 23:56:55 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 21:56:55 -0800
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
In-Reply-To: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
References: <56B52077.3080204@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <003701d160a3$2fda5ab0$8f8f1010$@net>

> Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7
> this year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just
> like before).
> 
> We * just * signed the contract today. I'll email again when we have
> the web site ready and stuff.
> 
> Primary organizer out there will be Erik Klein.

Calendar is marked!

-Ali


From barythrin at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 00:54:53 2016
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 00:54:53 -0600
Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
Message-ID: <jk1cd1e4c1y5fhtnys86r8e1.1454741390280@email.android.com>

Great to hear! EK2 should make it a successfully revival.?

Sellam, you helping for fun too or happily still basking in the glory of making your goal of VCF X?

Glad its back though. The more the merrier for all regions to enjoy.

- John



<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net> </div><div>Date:02/05/2016  4:21 PM  (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> </div><div>Subject: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo! </div><div>
</div>Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7 
this year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just 
like before).

We * just * signed the contract today. I'll email again when we have the 
web site ready and stuff.

Primary organizer out there will be Erik Klein.

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 02:23:27 2016
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 03:23:27 -0500
Subject: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <006001d1601d$22c59ff0$6850dfd0$@tin.it>
 <CAJ_iqtaeX9FHtng9tXN1GqgnnMUQkqRJC+6D3uy5z+mULFBLsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051206210.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCFr7ySKdpzvbmUQk79h2EpJC7wxzX0xJ0mTeAUtP-56qQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051738400.4117@z87> <56B56A05.1050806@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <C831CE1D60A145DE9978F3EDE595FC61@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Woyciesjes" <woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; <snhirsch at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX for IBM PS/2


> On 02/05/2016 05:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>>> On 5 February 2016 at 18:07, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Feb 2016, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last night I had no issues to navigate it. Didn't try today
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the URL works fine here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Must have been authored against IE and happens to hit a Firefox bug.  It
>>>> renders properly in Win7 IE.  I'm seeing an increasing number of such
>>>> problems lately.
>>
>>> What are remarkable -- and *totally* wrong -- assumption to make.
>>
>>> Works fine on Google Chrome on Mac OS X, incidentally.
>>
>>> Google Sites are dynamically generated from a high-level markup the
>>> user enters in a special editor, AIUI. The fact that it is a Google
>>> product, a company that makes its own cross-platform browser and is a
>>> rival of Microsoft, makes the contention that it's a
>>> Microsoft-specific page ludicrous.
>>
>> I just love this list.  Sorry to have troubled you with my "remarkably
>> and totally wrong assumption" - won't happen again.
>>
>>
> 
> What? You're getting cranky because you got called out as being wrong? 
> Relax buddy.

-----------

I think he was commenting on the unnecessarily rude and condescending tone that Liam and one or two others on this list like to use; was it really necessary or appropriate to call Steven's apparently mistaken diagnosis *totally* wrong and "ludicrous" (while not even bothering to proofread his own post ;-)

We may not all decide to unsubscribe but I can tell you that for some of us this kind of stuff really detracts from enjoyment of a list and our motivation to actively participate.

But I must concede that it's been a lot worse in the past; fortunately some of the worst offenders have also left the list over the years...

m

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Feb  6 10:51:27 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 10:51:27 -0600
Subject: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re: AIX
 for IBM PS/2
Message-ID: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>

I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people off-list
about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
have been corrected... were. Quietly.

I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so much
smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or "Everyone
here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit that
while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any crowd
there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with it
and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.

J



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  6 08:31:11 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 14:31:11 +0000
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5EF5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.

That is the first time I have been called 'polite'. You've not met me when I've
just dropped an R80 on my toe. Or had EHT flash over to my fingers... Or had
to deal with a <terminal idiot> (note : That is not somebody who doesn't know
something and who wants to learn. I will always try to make time for that).

Just ignore the holy wars and get on with classic computing!

-tony


--

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  6 08:36:45 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 14:36:45 +0000
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5F02@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > So, how do you deal with your 8" drives, and what do you do when
> > they don't work?
> 
> Don't get into the alignment issue without a scope and an alignment
> disk--once you loosen the stepper motors, it's a very touchy operation
> getting them back into position, even with a special (expensive)
> alignment disk.

I think it is worth pointing out that the things you need an alignment disk for
are mostly, if not wholely, 'interchangeability adjustments'. They have to be 
right for that drive to work with disks from other drives (and vice versa) but
not for it to work on its own with its own disks.

Consider the head radial alignment (what most people mean by 'head alignment).
If it is off, then the drive will not be able to read disks formatted elsewhere, the
head will not be on the right track. But the drive _will_ be able to format, write, and
read a bulk-erased disk (which, of course willl not be useable on other drives). So if
a drive will not do that, then it is a waste of time trying to do an alignement. There are
other problems. Fix those first, then see if it needs aligning.

-tony


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 09:22:37 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:22:37 +0100
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGHo8bKaDmpxrxBj78e3af1rnHJUCaGbevt5+yGGC7AfA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
> interactions on this list.
>
> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.

I apologise for the offence that I have given.

I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
thought were reasonable and proportionate.

I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
apologise for them.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb  6 09:23:55 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 07:23:55 -0800
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C32B334A-0B6A-4C92-B121-EC0E962D1D20@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 5, 2016, at 21:46, Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.

I'm assuming that you are asking about replacing the pressure pad. My usual source for felt material is McMaster-Carr. I don't know which composition and hardness are best for this application, though. They carry both wool felt and synthetic felt.

https://www.mcmaster.com

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From wayne.smith at charter.net  Sat Feb  6 10:49:40 2016
From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 08:49:40 -0800
Subject: IBM 5100 - APL Only Version on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1454522400.43946.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1454522400.43946.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <012e01d160fe$5f820050$1e8600f0$@smith@charter.net>

There is an APL-only IBM 5100 up on Ebay.  Had known that these were
supposedly made, but have never seen one before.  Looks a bit rough,
but based on the pictures boots to the "CLEAR WS" screen.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5100-Portable-Computer-Powers-On-/
321999141713



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Feb  6 08:42:14 2016
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:42:14 +0100
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <56B54EBB.2020409@compsys.to>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <20160205234950.GA20970@lonesome.com>
 <201602060047.TAA04805@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56B54EBB.2020409@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20160206144214.GA9154@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 08:39:07PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> >Mouse wrote:
> 
[...]
> >Usually, as in this case, this turns out to be because (for
> >unrelated reasons) I go to some lengths to avoid seeing anything
> >that was sent through gmail, even laundered through mailing lists.
> >(This loses me some mail I regret losing, but, so far, not enough
> >to make me take out those blocks.  And note that it's not people
> >using gmail addresses I block, but mail actually sent through
> >gmail.)

Like, as if the email had been written in a browser? Or in a phone
app? Intriguing idea. I have collected quite some mails from all those
lists I subscribe to. I wish I could find time to explore this
further. Perhaps even come to conclusion. I think I will write a note
to myself about it and if I ever find the note...

[...]
> And since I receive so much help for the very few things that I really
> need like help for a new system, it is really very reasonable to spend
> the few minutes each day to sift out the chaff (at least what I regard
> as chaff - not at all identical for anyone else of course) from the good
> stuff.
> 
> I rarely reply to this sort of speculation, but I regard Mouse's opinions
> quite highly, in addition to Tony Duell whom I regard the most.

I subscribed to this list exactly because of huge body of collective
knowledge. Right now, the only ancient machines I have is 20 years old
Pentium clone (my first Linux installed, probably dead, but it might
be interesting to give it a try) and maybe some 12-15 years old Compaq
iPAQ PDA (back in time I replaced WindowsCE with Linux, very
pleasurable experience to have it in a pocket, despite some weight,
possibly still boots, will have to check). So I am not too much of a
collector :-). However, I keep collecting scraps of knowledge, a piece
a time, in my own slooooooow manner. Thus it makes me a bit uneasy
when I see people going away.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Feb  6 11:29:41 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 11:29:41 -0600
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B62D85.8010307@pico-systems.com>

On 02/05/2016 11:46 PM, Dan K wrote:
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.
>
>
Probably the pressure pad in an audio cassette is about the 
same material.  Depending on how large a diameter the floppy 
drive's pad was, one from a cassette might not be big enough.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb  6 11:40:50 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 09:40:50 -0800
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B63022.5090104@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2016 09:46 PM, Dan K wrote:
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.

Got any chums in the musical instrument repair business? Wind 
instruments (woodwind and brass) use a fair amount of very high-quality 
wool felt and a dot the size of a pressure pad should be easy to come by.

I've even heard of people using the felt pads sold in hardware stores as 
cabinet door bumpers or padding for the bottom of table lamps and such.

--Chuck

From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb  6 11:17:41 2016
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:17:41 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B62AB5.6060705@cimmeri.com>


> On Feb 5, 2016, at 21:46, Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.


I use felt cleaning pellets for a .20 
caliber pellet gun, and cut them to size.

- j.



From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb  6 11:16:37 2016
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:16:37 -0500
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGHo8bKaDmpxrxBj78e3af1rnHJUCaGbevt5+yGGC7AfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCGHo8bKaDmpxrxBj78e3af1rnHJUCaGbevt5+yGGC7AfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B62A75.8040101@cimmeri.com>



On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch<snhirsch at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
>> interactions on this list.
>>
>> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly express
>> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
>> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.
> I apologise for the offence that I have given.
>
> I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
> too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
> rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
> thought were reasonable and proportionate.
>
> I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
> apologise for them.

On the other hand, Liam, maybe some 
people should just grow a bit of a 
thicker skin and understand that other 
cultures can be different.

- J.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb  6 12:18:06 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 10:18:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <56B63022.5090104@sydex.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B63022.5090104@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602061015340.4409@shell.lmi.net>

>> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
>> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Got any chums in the musical instrument repair business? Wind instruments 
> (woodwind and brass) use a fair amount of very high-quality wool felt and a 
> dot the size of a pressure pad should be easy to come by.

D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?

> I've even heard of people using the felt pads sold in hardware stores as 
> cabinet door bumpers or padding for the bottom of table lamps and such.

Most of those are too thin and hard

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 12:18:57 2016
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 13:18:57 -0500
Subject: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re:
 AIX for IBM PS/2
References: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <22194D828DA449478F8F305A1898661E@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 11:51 AM

...
> I submit that while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least as often if not more. 
...
---- Reply ---

Agreed, especially when it comes to DEC, HP and big iron. IMO this is one of the best maintained and unobtrusively moderated lists out there these days; thank you, Jay and anyone else involved.

While understandable, it's unfortunate that some folks choose to leave when they become too annoyed; it's usually a loss both to the list and the (ex-)member...

m

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Feb  6 13:20:09 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 14:20:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5EF5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E5EF5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <201602061920.OAA25053@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> [...] would like to particularly express my thanks to Tony Duell,
>> Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly polite and very
>> forthcoming with technical advice.
> That is the first time I have been called 'polite'.

I concur.  While my interaction with you has been limited to the list,
in my experience you have been unfailingly polite.  That's not to say
you haven't called idiocy idiocy; it's entirely possible to do that
while remaining polite.  Polite != nice, after all.)

> You've not met me when I've just dropped an R80 on my toe.  Or had
> EHT flash over to my fingers... Or [...]

I think we all ahve such moments.  I know I certainly do. :-)

> had to deal with a <terminal idiot> (note : That is not somebody who
> doesn't know something and who wants to learn.  I will always try to
> make time for that).

I sometimes say that ignorance is curable but stupid is forever. :-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb  6 13:26:34 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:26:34 -0800
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602061015340.4409@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B63022.5090104@sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602061015340.4409@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56B648EA.4080108@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2016 10:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?

No, those are cork, not felt.  On brasswinds, felt's usually used as a 
cushioning device on piston valves, so things don't go "clank clank". 
Rotary valves employ cork or rubber for a similar use.  Pianos use a 
great deal of felt.

You might even be able to round up a strip of felt from a laser printer 
fuser assembly--used to wipe the fuser drum.

But see, for example, something from Ferree's:

http://www.ferreestools.com/cork-felt/felt.html

--Chuck


From dmabry at mich.com  Sat Feb  6 14:23:22 2016
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:23:22 -0500
Subject: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re:
 AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56B6563A.9020100@mich.com>

Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:
> I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
> of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people off-list
> about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
> have been corrected... were. Quietly.
>
> I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so much
> smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or "Everyone
> here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit that
> while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
> better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
> track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
> as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
> study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
> happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
> brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any crowd
> there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
> moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with it
> and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
> that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
> whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
> want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
> here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.
>
> J

Jay,

Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there 
are going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I get 
pretty quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts 
complaining about this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the work 
you put into it.

Thank you!

Dave


From isking at uw.edu  Sat Feb  6 14:43:38 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:43:38 -0800
Subject: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re:
 AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <56B6563A.9020100@mich.com>
References: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <56B6563A.9020100@mich.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ024+456eBmpWaA=weiu8fZKes4KvEVCqvG9Dc5oRVi2Jw@mail.gmail.com>

+1

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:

> Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:
>
>> I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the tide
>> of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people
>> off-list
>> about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who should
>> have been corrected... were. Quietly.
>>
>> I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is so
>> much
>> smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or
>> "Everyone
>> here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I submit
>> that
>> while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
>> better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio gets off
>> track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at least
>> as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical expertise to
>> study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
>> happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that are
>> brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any
>> crowd
>> there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially at the
>> moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal with
>> it
>> and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct those
>> that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
>> whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
>> want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
>> here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.
>>
>> J
>>
>
> Jay,
>
> Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there are
> going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I get pretty
> quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts complaining about
> this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the work you put into it.
>
> Thank you!
>
> Dave
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Feb  6 14:47:36 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:47:36 -0500
Subject: emergency moderation mode RE: Virtualizing AIX 1.3 - WAS::::Re:
 AIX for IBM PS/2
In-Reply-To: <56B6563A.9020100@mich.com>
References: <000001d160fe$9f9f6c40$dede44c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <56B6563A.9020100@mich.com>
Message-ID: <56B65BE8.3080905@compsys.to>

 >Dave Mabry wrote:

> Jay West wrote on 2/6/2016 11:51 AM:
>
>> I had already turned on emergency moderation mode to try and stem the 
>> tide
>> of this escalating further. I had also already emailed a few people 
>> off-list
>> about this, which is primarily how it should be handled. Those who 
>> should
>> have been corrected... were. Quietly.
>>
>> I'm rather tired of (a very few) people commenting "oh, this list is 
>> so much
>> smaller than other forums" or "there's such a low SNRatio here" or 
>> "Everyone
>> here is unfriendly (or things like that)". Screw all of that. I 
>> submit that
>> while this list may be small, it has the best content and expertise, far
>> better than others (I've looked). I submit that while the SNRatio 
>> gets off
>> track once in a great while, I've seen that happen elsewhere, and at 
>> least
>> as often if not more. Perhaps some should use their technical 
>> expertise to
>> study the function of the "delete" key. Quite frankly I don't think it
>> happens here all that often. Unfriendly? Perhaps there are a few that 
>> are
>> brisque at times. On the one hand - Guess what... that's life. In any 
>> crowd
>> there's always a few grumpy old men (of which I am one - especially 
>> at the
>> moment), and  socially well-adjusted people should learn how to deal 
>> with it
>> and get along. On the other hand - That doesn't mean I don't correct 
>> those
>> that need correcting (and I did) .. but I really don't need to hear the
>> whining. It seems that there are one or two people that state they don't
>> want to participate because of one or more of the above... yet they stay
>> here solely to voice that opinion. Odd.
>
> Jay,
>
> Don't let it get you down.  In any population, even a small one, there 
> are going to be people in both tails of the normal distribution.  I 
> get pretty quick on the delete key when one of those tails starts 
> complaining about this list.  I greatly enjoy and thank you for the 
> work you put into it.
>
> Thank you!

I add my agreement as well.  This is probably one of the very few topics
that I will reply to and NOT keep a copy.  The DELETE key is the one
I use the most.

And I also specifically add my appreciation for the job that Jay West does!

Jerome Fine

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb  6 15:21:30 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 13:21:30 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
Message-ID: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>

Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 3000. Pictures:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696042894939979776
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696050264306921472
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696065578977472512

It's a fairly typical 3.6V 60mAH 3-cell NiCd pack, 16mm diameter x 18mm long, polarized with 2 pins on the positive end and 1 pin on the negative end.

In the past I have usually replaced these sorts of batteries with new ones of the same type. This time, I'm thinking of at least installing a remote holder. Not only to prevent further PCB damage in the future, but also to make the battery easier to replace. Lots of screws need to come out to extract an A3000 motherboard:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696047816938946560

While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options come to mind:

* Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

* Solder in a supercap instead.

* Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

* Yet some other remote battery option.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Feb  6 15:29:44 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:29:44 -0500
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 3000. Pictures:
> ...
> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options come to mind:
> 
> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.

I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.

> * Solder in a supercap instead.

That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve (exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.

> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  (Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required inspection on the ground.)

	paul



From jrr at flippers.com  Sat Feb  6 15:57:47 2016
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 13:57:47 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56B66C5B.5090901@flippers.com>

On 02/06/2016 1:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>
>> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 3000. Pictures:
>> ...
>> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options come to mind:
>>
>> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.
> I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.
>
>> * Solder in a supercap instead.
> That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve (exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.
>
>> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.
> It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  (Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required inspection on the ground.)
>
> 	paul
>
>
>

If you are running batteries in your machines you need to watch out for 
battery leakage! These are all alkaline batteries so the only way to 
neutralize the leakage is to wash and scrub with a mild acid - white 
vinegar mixed 50/50 with pure water works very well.

Next, depending on the RAM device, it may be possible to use a 
Ferromagnetic device to replace these - they are good for over 100 years 
at 1mHz!

5101, 6116, 6264, and others are available from several suppliers 
(including me). I have no idea what CMOS RAM is used in the Amiga, but 
something needs to be done to protect these machines from 
self-destruction by battery suicide!

Currently I have not seen a replacement for CMOS RAM that use separate 
DI and DO pins such as some users of 5101s, but I am trying to get this 
going...

John :-#(#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From pinball at telus.net  Sat Feb  6 15:58:09 2016
From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 13:58:09 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56B66C71.4060009@telus.net>

On 02/06/2016 1:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>
>> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 3000. Pictures:
>> ...
>> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options come to mind:
>>
>> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.
> I haven't yet done this, but I have a device (Fluke 881AB voltmeter) with dead NiCd batteries, and when I get around to replacing them that's what I was thinking of.  NiCd batteries are still available.
>
>> * Solder in a supercap instead.
> That has vastly less capacity, and a very different discharge curve (exponential vs. nearly flat).  Depending on the circuit using it, that might work slightly (at 10% capacity, maybe) or not really at all.
>
>> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.
> It hasn't happened to me, but have heard of one case of a leaking Li primary cell.  Not a coin cell, but a C-sized one: I remember a report of one leaking in an automatic parachute opener (AAD), wrecking the parachute.  In fairness, that was one left in quite a number of years beyond its expiration date.  (Before someone asks the obvious: the problem was found during a required inspection on the ground.)
>
> 	paul
>
>
>

If you are running batteries in your machines you need to watch out for 
battery leakage! These are all alkaline batteries so the only way to 
neutralize the leakage is to wash and scrub with a mild acid - white 
vinegar mixed 50/50 with pure water works very well.

Next, depending on the RAM device, it may be possible to use a 
Ferromagnetic device to replace these - they are good for over 100 years 
at 1mHz!

5101, 6116, 6264, and others are available from several suppliers 
(including me). I have no idea what CMOS RAM is used in the Amiga, but 
something needs to be done to protect these machines from 
self-destruction by battery suicide!

Currently I have not seen a replacement for CMOS RAM that use separate 
DI and DO pins such as some users of 5101s, but I am trying to get this 
going...

John :-#(#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Feb  6 16:31:47 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:31:47 -0600
Subject: PRM-85 board case?
Message-ID: <000001d1612e$2aa60bd0$7ff22370$@classiccmp.org>

Rumor has it that one or more people have designed and 3d-printed cases for
their HP-85 PRM-85 boards. Anyone have any of those cases available? I'd
like to get my PRM-85 a proper case :)

Best,

J



From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb  6 16:54:47 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 14:54:47 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <56B66C71.4060009@telus.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <C36C45F5-3D81-4202-8331-9BE379353C16@comcast.net>
 <56B66C71.4060009@telus.net>
Message-ID: <53CC6BF6-22D7-4524-8BAF-5CACB4DAF6AA@nf6x.net>


In this Amiga, the battery is just for a real time clock. I don't think the A3000 saves any parameters in nonvolatile memory. 

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 17:17:57 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:17:57 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <56B648EA.4080108@sydex.com>
References: <CAAQ+N0XwsXnj0geOfs3N6KKAx35mjWASDGB6Y091b_jFV+fq5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B532E9.7010200@sydex.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072291DB8D3C660CA27C8205A3D30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAAQ+N0Xbix1PzZ4x9=YnNfYG-ug5jZNBWddmMMVjQWtsecJG5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B56E1B.2050304@pico-systems.com>
 <CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B63022.5090104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602061015340.4409@shell.lmi.net>
 <56B648EA.4080108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0WuTXJ3JHd+mR5fGTYmiGLFcuECVgKxboYtwFzvSWRcRA@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of good information here, and I have a music store near me that
I might be able to find a suitable felt or wool pad from. If not
there, then perhaps at Home Depot or online.

Was it uncommon to use floppy disks formatted in other 8" drives in a
machine like this? When someone (very charitably!) gave me this
machine he also provided me with copies of the disks it came with,
presumably from drives that would be compatible.

Let's say that I had a machine with just blank floppy disks, however,
and nothing more than a system monitor ROM that lets me read/write
memory. How could I go from this zero state to running software from a
floppy? Is it easy to write arbitrary bytes to a floppy, so that I
could write a small shim program to read from serial and write to the
floppy? Then I could transfer the disk image over the wire, write it,
then read from it.

Thanks,
Dan

On 2/6/16, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> On 02/06/2016 10:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> D'ya mean a tuba spit-valve pad?
>
> No, those are cork, not felt.  On brasswinds, felt's usually used as a
> cushioning device on piston valves, so things don't go "clank clank".
> Rotary valves employ cork or rubber for a similar use.  Pianos use a
> great deal of felt.
>
> You might even be able to round up a strip of felt from a laser printer
> fuser assembly--used to wipe the fuser drum.
>
> But see, for example, something from Ferree's:
>
> http://www.ferreestools.com/cork-felt/felt.html
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Feb  6 17:37:00 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:37:00 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-06, at 1:21 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Today I discovered that I hadn't replaced the NiCd battery in time in my Amiga 3000. Pictures:
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696042894939979776
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696050264306921472
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696065578977472512
> 
> It's a fairly typical 3.6V 60mAH 3-cell NiCd pack, 16mm diameter x 18mm long, polarized with 2 pins on the positive end and 1 pin on the negative end.
> 
> In the past I have usually replaced these sorts of batteries with new ones of the same type. This time, I'm thinking of at least installing a remote holder. Not only to prevent further PCB damage in the future, but also to make the battery easier to replace. Lots of screws need to come out to extract an A3000 motherboard:
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696047816938946560
> 
> While I begin to figure out how I'd like to perform this repair, I'm curious about what others have decided to do in similar circumstances. Many options come to mind:
> 
> * Solder in the same kind of NiCd pack to keep things original.
> 
> * Solder in a supercap instead.
> 
> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.
> 
> * Yet some other remote battery option.
> 

My favorite solution, for the right circumstances, is to mount a 2, 3 or 4 cell AA or AAA battery holder on the outside/rear and use common alkaline cells.

Right circumstances comes down mostly to current draw. If the function is purely CMOS memory retention the current draw is equivalent to static/idle leakage and you can expect shelf life from alkaline batteries. An RTC is going to draw some current due to the active circuitry. I'm not sure what the current draw for an RTC of that era is, the tech should be CMOS and the draw small but not as small as simple memory retention.

The advantages of this solution:
	- AA/AAA alkaline cells are commonly available and relatively inexpensive.

	- depending on current draw, you can often use otherwise-worn-out alkaline cells.
	 For example, cells that are no longer usable in your remote control or flashlight can still
	 have enough potential to maintain CMOS memory for years.

	- alkaline cells tend not to leak and generally can be ignored for years.

	- if mounted on the exterior, damage in the event of leakage will be minimal.

	- if mounted on the exterior, they're accessible for replacement.

The more cells you use, the more headroom/longevity there is as the cells wear down, but too high a voltage with newer cells also has to be accounted for.

If the original design was for rechargeable batteries one will have to disable the charging function and may have to install isolation diodes. 

From rlloken at telus.net  Sat Feb  6 17:43:35 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:43:35 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>

Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.

I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.

I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.

So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?

I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more 
difficult).  But that is a differant subject.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Sat Feb  6 18:06:10 2016
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:06:10 -0500
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <E508A8F9-95FB-4E42-9453-5EB7FD9B15D4@VMSSoftware.com>

Dear Richard,

Can you please send me email I am going to check with the VMS Engineering Team.  We have done a great deal of work in the Open Source space?  Also have you tried Firefox on Alpha?

Warm Regards,
Sue



> On Feb 6, 2016, at 6:43 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.
> 
> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
> 
> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
> 
> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
> 
> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
> 
> -- 
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
>  ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations




From halarewich at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 18:14:37 2016
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:14:37 -0800
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=grjcPC9RStTpv4mNCz9pzg3_sPCT60GtivmgKxpnA38w@mail.gmail.com>

VMS Mosaic is supported on VAXes running OpenVMS 5.4-3 thru 7.3, on
Alpha systems using OpenVMS V1.5 thru 8.2, and on IA64 systems running
OpenVMS V8.1 thru 8.2-1.  Mosaic will work with UCX (TCP/IP Services),
CMU, MultiNet, Pathway, TCPware or SOCKETSHR with NETLIB.  CMU TCP/IP
is supported via LIBCMUII or SOCKETSHR.  The Mosaic has been compiled
with VAX C, DEC C and GNU C (VAX version 2.7.1 only).  Versions 1.1
thru 1.5 of DECwindows Motif are supported.  Both HP SSL and OpenSSL
are supported for secure connections.

On 2/6/16, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated 2006.
>
> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
>
> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
>
> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
>
> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more
> difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
>
> --
>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>    Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
>    ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black
>


-- 
Chris Halarewich

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 18:14:38 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:14:38 -0600
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <56B62A75.8040101@cimmeri.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCGHo8bKaDmpxrxBj78e3af1rnHJUCaGbevt5+yGGC7AfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B62A75.8040101@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd64CUT6KxXWL2sASt06YHMMaXT=dNF+6Cd2rdaKSGu+ow@mail.gmail.com>

Lacking any other clue (such as accent, mannerisms) that the speaker may
have different cultural norms, how is one to tell plain, friendly
discoursing from a demeaning, brusque or curt tone?

Absent the many critical but subtle cues we receive when engaging in live,
interpersonal conversation, the written word - particularly the functional
and casual way we use it here - is open to broad (mis-)interpretation at
almost every turn.

I'll close by saying that, like most of you, I've had the odd run-in with
what first seemed like a real twat on the net. But in every case, when we
took it up personally, off-list, I've never walked away with anything but a
satisfied mind and a more thoughtful and dare I say favorable opinion of
the person on the other end.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 11:16 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On 5 February 2016 at 23:54, Steven Hirsch<snhirsch at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> I've finally had my fill of the general grumpiness and bluntly worded
>>> interactions on this list.
>>>
>>> Over the years I have learned a lot and would like to particularly
>>> express
>>> my thanks to Tony Duell, Fred Cisin and Chuck Guzis for being unfailingly
>>> polite and very forthcoming with technical advice.
>>>
>> I apologise for the offence that I have given.
>>
>> I am British, not American, and the tone of European converse is far
>> too abrupt and confrontational for an American-dominated forum. I was
>> rebuked by moderators twice that day alone for comments which I had
>> thought were reasonable and proportionate.
>>
>> I was wrong. My comments were inappropriate. I regret them and
>> apologise for them.
>>
>
> On the other hand, Liam, maybe some people should just grow a bit of a
> thicker skin and understand that other cultures can be different.
>
> - J.
>

From halarewich at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 18:17:20 2016
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 16:17:20 -0800
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
In-Reply-To: <CA+A6M=grjcPC9RStTpv4mNCz9pzg3_sPCT60GtivmgKxpnA38w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CA+A6M=grjcPC9RStTpv4mNCz9pzg3_sPCT60GtivmgKxpnA38w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=jwD9xsqLihGWBFSN8f9VYd2tEUD-SQRh7TFs+kzh4QZA@mail.gmail.com>

ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/mosaic/mosaic.zip


On 2/6/16, Chris Halarewich <halarewich at gmail.com> wrote:
> VMS Mosaic is supported on VAXes running OpenVMS 5.4-3 thru 7.3, on
> Alpha systems using OpenVMS V1.5 thru 8.2, and on IA64 systems running
> OpenVMS V8.1 thru 8.2-1.  Mosaic will work with UCX (TCP/IP Services),
> CMU, MultiNet, Pathway, TCPware or SOCKETSHR with NETLIB.  CMU TCP/IP
> is supported via LIBCMUII or SOCKETSHR.  The Mosaic has been compiled
> with VAX C, DEC C and GNU C (VAX version 2.7.1 only).  Versions 1.1
> thru 1.5 of DECwindows Motif are supported.  Both HP SSL and OpenSSL
> are supported for secure connections.
>
> On 2/6/16, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>> Gentlemen, I stumbled across a reference to Mosaic 4.0 for VMS dated
>> 2006.
>>
>> I ran Mosaic on my VMS workstation around 1994 and had abandoned it long
>> ago first for Netscape 3.0.3 and later for Seamonkey.
>>
>> I did not know that there was any development on Mosaic in recent decades
>> I found Seamonkey to be glacially slow on AlphaServer 4100 "desktop" and
>> so I have not attempted to do much web browsing on VMS in recent years.
>>
>> So...  Is Mosaic 4.0 useful in 2016?  Is it more useful than Seamonkey?
>> Netscape?  AFAIR, HP had a port of Firefox to IA64 VMS but not to Alpha,
>> has anybody been so burdened with spare time that they have attempted
>> to port firefox to Alpha or VAX VMS?  Or any other web browser?
>>
>> I hope to attempt a port of the heritage version of nroff/troff to VMS
>> some time in the next couple years (I think groff would be much more
>> difficult).  But that is a differant subject.
>>
>> --
>>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath
>> those
>>    Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
>>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
>>    ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Halarewich
>


-- 
Chris Halarewich

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 18:40:05 2016
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:40:05 -0500
Subject: Programming
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>

There is the software side to classic computing: Back in the early
days we wrote/coded in BASIC-TinyBASIC running in 2K(talk about
writing efficient code!); EASY and SmallFORTRAN. What apps/programs
are written in today I don?t know. They certainly can?t run in 2 or 4
K but is the outcome the same ? make a computer or computer-like
machine do what we want it to.

On the lighter side: ?Computers can never completely replace humans.
They may become capable of artificial intelligence(much in the news
today), but they will never master real stupidity.?

Happy computing all.

Murray  :)

From pye at mactec.com.au  Sat Feb  6 18:59:24 2016
From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 00:59:24 +0000
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <9FD80C11-34A9-4C31-AA53-6F6473F5F5D5@mactec.com.au>


> On 7 Feb 2016, at 7:21 am, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> * Reconfigure the circuit to use a non-rechargeable lithium coin cell in a holder instead. I don't think I've seen one of those leak before.

This is what I normally do, preferably mounted away from the board. Generally you can get away with simply using a diode to prevent the circuit trying to charge the battery.

Chris

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb  6 19:03:24 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:03:24 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>


I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why 
go with the toxics?

--Chuck

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Sat Feb  6 19:05:32 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:05:32 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 5:03 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why go with the toxics?

Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not always a 1:1 mapping.

From rlloken at telus.net  Sat Feb  6 19:27:47 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:27:47 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
In-Reply-To: <E508A8F9-95FB-4E42-9453-5EB7FD9B15D4@VMSSoftware.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
 <E508A8F9-95FB-4E42-9453-5EB7FD9B15D4@VMSSoftware.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061814480.46465@discord.bogons>

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Sue Skonetski wrote:

> Can you please send me email I am going to check with the VMS 
> Engineering Team.  We have done a great deal of work in the Open Source 
> space?  Also have you tried Firefox on Alpha?

Hi Sue, I don't know what I can say.

It is a number of years since I looked for a web browser for OpenVMS on 
Alpha and at that time the HP website said that they had the Compaq Secure 
Web Browser (CSWB) which was a port of Mozilla Seamonkey and I do not 
recall the version. The website said that they had a Firefox port for 
IA64.

Looking at my VMS box, the CSWB directory is dated in 2013 when I last
rebuilt this machine and my latest version of the HP freeware collection
is dated 2009.

I am way out of touch.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From macro at linux-mips.org  Sat Feb  6 19:31:59 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 01:31:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602070123470.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> > I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  
> > Why go with the toxics?
> 
> Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not 
> always a 1:1 mapping.

 Sure, but does it really matter in a typical battery-backed-up RAM or RTC 
application seen in computers?  I swapped the dead original NiCd pack for 
a compatible NiMH one in my DECstation 2100 some half a year ago and the 
machine seems rather happy about the replacement.

  Maciej

From rlloken at telus.net  Sat Feb  6 19:32:40 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:32:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Mosaic 4.0 for openVMS
In-Reply-To: <CA+A6M=jwD9xsqLihGWBFSN8f9VYd2tEUD-SQRh7TFs+kzh4QZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061643130.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CA+A6M=grjcPC9RStTpv4mNCz9pzg3_sPCT60GtivmgKxpnA38w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+A6M=jwD9xsqLihGWBFSN8f9VYd2tEUD-SQRh7TFs+kzh4QZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602061830370.46465@discord.bogons>

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chris Halarewich wrote:

> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/mosaic/mosaic.zip

Thank you Chris, I will have a look.  Maybe there is more of interest than
just Mosaic.

But that does not answer the question.  Is mosaic a more useful browser 
than than Seamonkey (CSWB) in 2016?

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Sat Feb  6 19:39:11 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:39:11 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602070123470.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602070123470.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <AC7DCE5D-878B-4827-8D06-99914E82C70A@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org> wrote:
> 
>> Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not 
>> always a 1:1 mapping.
> 
> Sure, but does it really matter in a typical battery-backed-up RAM or RTC 
> application seen in computers?  I swapped the dead original NiCd pack for 
> a compatible NiMH one in my DECstation 2100 some half a year ago and the 
> machine seems rather happy about the replacement.

It all depends on your definition of 'typical'.  In most cases, a NiMH coin cell will happily replace a NiCd one.  But it's not always a 1:1 mapping.  It never is if 'recharge' is uttered in the sentence.

You need to spend a minute looking at the circuit before declaring MH <==> NH.  It's no different than when you make any other part substitution.  But when you're mucking around with something that *feeds* power into a circuit, it's worth paying a bit of attention, lest surprises come along.


From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Feb  6 20:08:12 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:08:12 -0800
Subject: Farewell and thanks!
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd64CUT6KxXWL2sASt06YHMMaXT=dNF+6Cd2rdaKSGu+ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602051746190.4117@z87>
 <CAMTenCGHo8bKaDmpxrxBj78e3af1rnHJUCaGbevt5+yGGC7AfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B62A75.8040101@cimmeri.com>
 <CAFjrmd64CUT6KxXWL2sASt06YHMMaXT=dNF+6Cd2rdaKSGu+ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B6A70C.9080701@jwsss.com>



On 2/6/2016 4:14 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> Lacking any other clue (such as accent, mannerisms) that the speaker may
> have different cultural norms, how is one to tell plain, friendly
> discoursing from a demeaning, brusque or curt tone?
>
> Absent the many critical but subtle cues we receive when engaging in live,
> interpersonal conversation, the written word - particularly the functional
> and casual way we use it here - is open to broad (mis-)interpretation at
> almost every turn.
>
> I'll close by saying that, like most of you, I've had the odd run-in with
> what first seemed like a real twat on the net. But in every case, when we
> took it up personally, off-list, I've never walked away with anything but a
> satisfied mind and a more thoughtful and dare I say favorable opinion of
> the person on the other end.
>
I recall you and I had words at one time, but you've helped me sense and 
I value having you on the list and as an associate here.  That's just 
the way things go.  If you don't get vulgar and fuss about things like 
that, I see no reason not to fuss from time to time and go on.

Thanks
Jim

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb  6 20:35:21 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:35:21 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <9FD80C11-34A9-4C31-AA53-6F6473F5F5D5@mactec.com.au>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <9FD80C11-34A9-4C31-AA53-6F6473F5F5D5@mactec.com.au>
Message-ID: <A309176C-2EFE-4F50-A3BA-84482D89FDB8@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 16:59, Chris Pye <pye at mactec.com.au> wrote:
> This is what I normally do, preferably mounted away from the board. Generally you can get away with simply using a diode to prevent the circuit trying to charge the battery.

I think that a blocking diode added in the positive lead of a non-rechargeable replacement battery should work in this application. After further thought, lifting one end of the diode in the existing charging circuit would not be ideal because that would mean the RTC would always draw power from the battery, rather than drawing power from the main power supply when the computer is turned on.

> On Feb 6, 2016, at 15:37, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
> My favorite solution, for the right circumstances, is to mount a 2, 3 or 4 cell AA or AAA battery holder on the outside/rear and use common alkaline cells.

That's not a bad idea!


> Right circumstances comes down mostly to current draw. If the function is purely CMOS memory retention the current draw is equivalent to static/idle leakage and you can expect shelf life from alkaline batteries. An RTC is going to draw some current due to the active circuitry. I'm not sure what the current draw for an RTC of that era is, the tech should be CMOS and the draw small but not as small as simple memory retention.

Let's see, the RTC in this case is a Ricoh RP5C01. It has 26 x 4 bits of RAM, but I'm not aware of any parameters stored in it (neither have I investigated thoroughly; I just don't recall ever seeing the sorts of parameter settings on Amigas that PC family machines usually have). Its rated maximum operating supply current at Vcc = 5.0V is 250?A. It's probably quite a bit lower at typical conditions while operating from a backup battery at Vcc = 3.0-3.6V, but still a lot higher than the 500nA ratings I recall seeing on much newer RTC chips.


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 17:03, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> I see all the talk about NiCd cells--does no one use NiMH nowadays?  Why go with the toxics?
> 
> --Chuck

NiMH is worth considering; I would just need to study the charging circuit carefully before changing secondary battery chemistry.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb  6 21:18:03 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:18:03 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2016 05:05 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> Voltage?  Recharging circuits?  Current sinking capacity.  It's not
> always a 1:1 mapping.
>

You're talking about RTC and perhaps a bit of static RAM maintenance. 
If this RTC unit is like most of the same era, the operating voltage 
range is quite wide (probably about 2-7V) and sub-1ma current draw. 
Chargers for this type of application are usually very low current, so 
"cooking' some AA cells is a very remote prospect.  This is hardly a 
power-hungry project.

If you're not interested in a "authentic" look, a plain old lithium 
primary coin cell or two, with a blocking diode in this circuit should 
work for years.

--Chuck

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb  6 21:44:02 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:44:02 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <C805C06E-72A7-46C7-8EA3-99032CA4BB39@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 19:18, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> If you're not interested in a "authentic" look, a plain old lithium primary coin cell or two, with a blocking diode in this circuit should work for years.

I might tuck a CR123 in a holder inside the case somewhere, with a blocking diode. I think I already have some suitable holders left over from when I did the same thing to repair a bad NVRAM battery in an old HP digital oscilloscope. It was hard to get to the original cell in that one (an AA sized one with wire leads, as I recall), so I replaced it with a CR123 mounted remotely inside the back panel so that the next replacement will be easier.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 23:43:14 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 21:43:14 -0800
Subject: PRM-85 board case?
In-Reply-To: <000001d1612e$2aa60bd0$7ff22370$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d1612e$2aa60bd0$7ff22370$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLaND_-=ftNcRuPiLBpt_89YraQSDWHfOf7qcbncB0wNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Rumor has it that one or more people have designed and 3d-printed cases for
> their HP-85 PRM-85 boards. Anyone have any of those cases available? I'd
> like to get my PRM-85 a proper case :)
>

I would like to hear about that too. I also have a bare PRM-85 board.
It would be nice to have a proper case for it without gutting another
plug in I/O module for it's case.

From james at attfield.co.uk  Sat Feb  6 17:27:36 2016
From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 23:27:36 -0000
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
Message-ID: <013001d16135$f6c26130$e4472390$@attfield.co.uk>

> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 00:46:33 -0500
> From: Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW
> 5A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.
> 
> -Dan

Seems like eons since I learned to align PerSci 299B's with Dysan alignment
disks and 'cat's eyes' on a 'scope :)

I echo the other sentiments here - do NOT undo or unscrew anything relating
to head positions especially involving allen (hex) screws unless you have a
'scope, an alignment disk, a very good quality set of hex screwdrivers (keys
will normally NOT suffice) and a modicum of experience. Granted, lead screw
single-headers are a little easier to do than voice-coil double-headers but
if you don't have to get into it then don't - explore all other options
first.

I'm afraid my TM-848's are double headers so the top head provides the
pressure but back when the drives were single headed felt pads did the job
of the second head. The tension was provided by the spring, the pad just
prevented scoring. I do NOT speak from experience BUT if I had to use
anything the kind of small felt pads you can get from hardware stores (e.g.
B&Q in the UK) seem remarkably similar in composition and would be worth a
try especially if you have one original to compare. Cut to shape, most are
self-adhesive too - bonus.

HTH

James



From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 17:34:08 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:34:08 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <013001d16135$f6c26130$e4472390$@attfield.co.uk>
References: <013001d16135$f6c26130$e4472390$@attfield.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0XoeT-yXJrCSEGX=oP7seinHvw53-K9JJ8HYp4nthhPmg@mail.gmail.com>

One interesting thing I noticed (and I'm investigating at this very
moment) is the arrangement of the head load armature. A spring-loaded
arm will swing down and push the felt pad against the media, which
brings it into conformity with the head. However, there's a little
thing on the lever that touches the plastic head load mechanism that I
posted links to earlier.

When the head load solenoid is retracted, the felt pad arm is lifted
up enough that the disk can slide in and out freely. When the head
load solenoid fires, the whole thing comes down and it's clearly
supposed to push on the media. However, I think in both my drives it
doesn't touch it, or if it does it only barely touches it. I'm
thinking perhaps the armature has to come down further.

That being said, at least once I tried doing that, manually letting
the arm come down, and it didn't improve the observed behavior. It's
possible something else was happening then too, so I'll retest.

-Dan

On 2/6/16, James Attfield <james at attfield.co.uk> wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 00:46:33 -0500
>> From: Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW
>> 5A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
>> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.
>>
>> -Dan
>
> Seems like eons since I learned to align PerSci 299B's with Dysan alignment
> disks and 'cat's eyes' on a 'scope :)
>
> I echo the other sentiments here - do NOT undo or unscrew anything relating
> to head positions especially involving allen (hex) screws unless you have a
> 'scope, an alignment disk, a very good quality set of hex screwdrivers
> (keys
> will normally NOT suffice) and a modicum of experience. Granted, lead screw
> single-headers are a little easier to do than voice-coil double-headers but
> if you don't have to get into it then don't - explore all other options
> first.
>
> I'm afraid my TM-848's are double headers so the top head provides the
> pressure but back when the drives were single headed felt pads did the job
> of the second head. The tension was provided by the spring, the pad just
> prevented scoring. I do NOT speak from experience BUT if I had to use
> anything the kind of small felt pads you can get from hardware stores (e.g.
> B&Q in the UK) seem remarkably similar in composition and would be worth a
> try especially if you have one original to compare. Cut to shape, most are
> self-adhesive too - bonus.
>
> HTH
>
> James
>
>
>

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Sat Feb  6 23:50:42 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 00:50:42 -0500
Subject: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
In-Reply-To: <CAAQ+N0XoeT-yXJrCSEGX=oP7seinHvw53-K9JJ8HYp4nthhPmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <013001d16135$f6c26130$e4472390$@attfield.co.uk>
 <CAAQ+N0XoeT-yXJrCSEGX=oP7seinHvw53-K9JJ8HYp4nthhPmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0WHeM2_15UCVD1JLOr49qGNwjHonsWqP5mn2wTxhnyF6Q@mail.gmail.com>

It figures: after all this talk about neither of the drives working, I
plugged one of them in (the one that's in better condition) and it now
recognizes the disk. The felt pad presses on the media, at least very
lightly, and perhaps this is the source of the main problems in the
other drive.

Other issues I didn't mention: the metal front panel that prevents the
disk drive from opening too far is broken on one of them, and the
latching mechanisms on both drives don't work, so that I have to wedge
something on top to keep the disks engaged. I also haven't tested the
reliability of the drives, as in writing a ton of data and verifying
it.

I noticed you changed the destination to cctech instead of cctalk,
James. I'll try to do that in the future for on-topic-only
discussions, as I suspect that's the custom here.

-Dan

On 2/6/16, Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com> wrote:
> One interesting thing I noticed (and I'm investigating at this very
> moment) is the arrangement of the head load armature. A spring-loaded
> arm will swing down and push the felt pad against the media, which
> brings it into conformity with the head. However, there's a little
> thing on the lever that touches the plastic head load mechanism that I
> posted links to earlier.
>
> When the head load solenoid is retracted, the felt pad arm is lifted
> up enough that the disk can slide in and out freely. When the head
> load solenoid fires, the whole thing comes down and it's clearly
> supposed to push on the media. However, I think in both my drives it
> doesn't touch it, or if it does it only barely touches it. I'm
> thinking perhaps the armature has to come down further.
>
> That being said, at least once I tried doing that, manually letting
> the arm come down, and it didn't improve the observed behavior. It's
> possible something else was happening then too, so I'll retest.
>
> -Dan
>
> On 2/6/16, James Attfield <james at attfield.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 00:46:33 -0500
>>> From: Dan K <100dashsix at gmail.com>
>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>>> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Calibration of 8" floppy drive?
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 	<CAAQ+N0XNG=NnWGRnt8oxN4WeXTuoLCXPO9BQRn9oaSjZfVNW
>>> 5A at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>> Are there any good alternative solutions I can do to replace it? I'm
>>> sure I don't want the plastic touching the disk media.
>>>
>>> -Dan
>>
>> Seems like eons since I learned to align PerSci 299B's with Dysan
>> alignment
>> disks and 'cat's eyes' on a 'scope :)
>>
>> I echo the other sentiments here - do NOT undo or unscrew anything
>> relating
>> to head positions especially involving allen (hex) screws unless you have
>> a
>> 'scope, an alignment disk, a very good quality set of hex screwdrivers
>> (keys
>> will normally NOT suffice) and a modicum of experience. Granted, lead
>> screw
>> single-headers are a little easier to do than voice-coil double-headers
>> but
>> if you don't have to get into it then don't - explore all other options
>> first.
>>
>> I'm afraid my TM-848's are double headers so the top head provides the
>> pressure but back when the drives were single headed felt pads did the
>> job
>> of the second head. The tension was provided by the spring, the pad just
>> prevented scoring. I do NOT speak from experience BUT if I had to use
>> anything the kind of small felt pads you can get from hardware stores
>> (e.g.
>> B&Q in the UK) seem remarkably similar in composition and would be worth
>> a
>> try especially if you have one original to compare. Cut to shape, most
>> are
>> self-adhesive too - bonus.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>

From nico at farumdata.dk  Sun Feb  7 02:31:57 2016
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 09:31:57 +0100
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa5b783aac15daa752c11c320892f698@farumdata.dk>

Murray McCullough skrev den 2016-02-07 01:40:
> 
> On the lighter side: ?Computers can never completely replace humans.
> They may become capable of artificial intelligence(much in the news
> today), but they will never master real stupidity.?
> 
Or to quite a poem from my early days in programming (ca 1969) ?

I really hate this damned machine
I wish that they would sell it
it never does quite what I want
but only what I tell it

/Nico

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb  7 04:45:11 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 02:45:11 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <C805C06E-72A7-46C7-8EA3-99032CA4BB39@nf6x.net>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com> <C805C06E-72A7-46C7-8EA3-99032CA4BB39@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <3DA02E0D-06FC-44AE-A907-186228DF1D32@nf6x.net>

I found a reference which states that the NVRAM is used to hold SCSI controller parameters.

I decided to mount a CR123A holder inside the case on one of the slot filler panels. I had some through-hole PCB mount CR123A holders left over from a previous project. I machined a mounting base for the holder out of a chunk of Delrin on my little Sherline CNC mill, with a diode installed inside the base to protect the battery from being charged as well as providing reverse polarity protection. The CR123A cells I have sitting around are 10 years old, but one of them will do until I buy some fresh ones.

I physically debrided the corroded copper from the top layer. I hope the rot didn't get into inner layers, but at least it didn't make it to the bottom of the board.

I posted some pictures on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696269909014159360
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696270186517639168
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696270250879234048
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696270706451984384
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/696271170069405696

I haven't hooked up the machine and booted it again yet, but I can see the RTC oscillator running off the CR123A cell with an oscilloscope.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 06:35:34 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 13:35:34 +0100
Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout
In-Reply-To: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJSYKM1xUvvQcuU8NrqrTOy5_K29aOQEzbhgLBAgDzUzw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Jay!

I think I sent a message related to these floppies before and since now is
long since the original message they're probably gone, but I need to check
to be sure.

I am interested in those oddball floppies with sector holes at the edge for
my Incoterm SPD 10/25 machine, are they still for trade?

I am not sure what you are looking for though. I do have a some HP21MX
stuff, 7900 disk cartridges. DEC stuff etc.

/Mattis

2015-10-18 1:21 GMT+02:00 Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:

> I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of
> these oddball floppies.
>
> Picture at
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/
>
> They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather
> than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the
> drive.
>
> I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for
> trade.
>
> J
>
>
>

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 06:37:28 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 13:37:28 +0100
Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJSYKM1xUvvQcuU8NrqrTOy5_K29aOQEzbhgLBAgDzUzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org>
 <CABr82SJSYKM1xUvvQcuU8NrqrTOy5_K29aOQEzbhgLBAgDzUzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJ=JSvX-6UkCgO=kEOVu=hK4o2CvWs2rXdY48dcVNxc_A@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry. Should have been off-list.

My fault.

/Mattis

2016-02-07 13:35 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>:

> Hello Jay!
>
> I think I sent a message related to these floppies before and since now is
> long since the original message they're probably gone, but I need to check
> to be sure.
>
> I am interested in those oddball floppies with sector holes at the edge
> for my Incoterm SPD 10/25 machine, are they still for trade?
>
> I am not sure what you are looking for though. I do have a some HP21MX
> stuff, 7900 disk cartridges. DEC stuff etc.
>
> /Mattis
>
> 2015-10-18 1:21 GMT+02:00 Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:
>
>> I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of
>> these oddball floppies.
>>
>> Picture at
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/
>>
>> They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather
>> than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the
>> drive.
>>
>> I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for
>> trade.
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>

From robo58 at optonline.net  Sun Feb  7 08:17:55 2016
From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 09:17:55 -0500
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running:  8080A clock circuitry
 and MITS88 2-SIO board
Message-ID: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>

Hi Folks,

I'm looking for some insights in getting an original Altair running again.

My buddy asked for my help getting his Altair running again.  He went
through and replaced all the electrolytic caps, cleaned up everything and
then tried to get the MITS 88 2-SIO board to run a simple echo program.  It
wouldn't work and now I have the Altair,

I've been looking it over for about a week and I've noticed the following.

1). The 2Mhz base oscillator circuit will not reliably start up when it's
hot.  It's perfect when cool.

2). The original MITS 2-phase clock circuit was modified.  The 74123 was
replaced with a 74221 along with RC changes.  

3). The MITS 2-SIO card has two Motorola 6850 ACIA's that don't seem to do
what their data sheets say they should be doing.  


Some questions for you.  (I've searched for insights on these topics and
information is scarce).

a). Was the Altair known for hot start issue(s) ?  If so are their tried and
true fixes?

b). Going to a 74221 appears to be an excellent move.  The RC changes were
prompted by that move.  There is no longer an RC delay circuit from phase 0
to phase 1, which appears to make sense.  I don't see one-shots as a wise
clocking design choice but my buddy wants to stay with it.  Are their tried
and true fixes here?

c). I hand assembled some code to exercise the 6850.  I know it has a
software reset and then you set attributes.  I tried my buddies echo
program.  It looks for a received character and then echo's it.  I'm using a
laptop and PuTTy along with an RS-232 breakout box.  I can see characters
going in but nothing coming out.  The 6850 appears to drive the bus for a
finite amount of time and then turn off its drivers.  I don't have any
experience with the part and I don't know if that's the way it's supposed to
work or that the Altair has a bus timing issue.

Any thoughts on what I'm seeing and suggestions/fixes ?

Thanks Robo






From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Feb  7 08:22:41 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 09:22:41 -0500
Subject: luceracloud/seqtest - was Re: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS
In-Reply-To: <563F4514.1020100@update.uu.se>
References: <563E2086.6020107@softjar.se> <563F4514.1020100@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56B75331.3050100@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-11-08 7:50 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Argh. For anyone who have downloaded the release I cut yesterday -
> please get the new version (that goes for everyone else as well).
>
> I just discovered and fixed an obscure bug that can crash the system.
> It's something that happens under very specific circumstances, and is
> uncommon, but if you have lots of TCP connections coming and going,
> you'll hit it sooner or later.

I just found out about this.
https://github.com/luceracloud/seqtest

Would it be helpful to you?

--Toby



>
> As usual, the distribution is available from:
> ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk
> ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap
> ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk
>
> The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at
> http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc
>
>      Johnny
>


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun Feb  7 11:50:52 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 12:50:52 -0500
Subject: Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK? Yikes I am...
Message-ID: <46fe1f.170d79d.43e8ddfc@aol.com>

 
Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK?  Yikes I  am...
This  fun and creative video pretty much  sums   things  up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA
 
Enjoy -   Ed#

From starbase89 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 13:10:00 2016
From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 14:10:00 -0500
Subject: 386 upgrade board
Message-ID: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings!
I have a Televideo luggable that I have been playing with. Its a 10MHz 286
with a meg of RAM, 2 360k drives and four expansion slots. I've been trying
to figure out how capable I can make this machine for the hell of it. Did
anyone make an upgrade kit to go from a 286 to a 386? It would be
interesting to get this thing going with that, a Hard Card and an ethernet
card, somewhat capable of doing some modern tasks.

Thanks!
Joe
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email> This email has been sent from a
virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email>
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb  7 13:53:03 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 11:53:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 386 upgrade board
In-Reply-To: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602071138220.8541@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016, Joe Giliberti wrote:
> Greetings!
> I have a Televideo luggable that I have been playing with. Its a 10MHz 286
> with a meg of RAM, 2 360k drives and four expansion slots. I've been trying
> to figure out how capable I can make this machine for the hell of it. Did
> anyone make an upgrade kit to go from a 286 to a 386? It would be
> interesting to get this thing going with that, a Hard Card and an ethernet
> card, somewhat capable of doing some modern tasks.

Yes, there were several.
386SX is the simplest, and can be done with a daughterboard for the 
processor, but there was at least one to full-on 386DX 16bit ISA card, 
although it also had RAM, etc. on it.

There was even an 8-bit ISA one!  I don't understand how that could work, 
unless it just used the 5160/5160 only for I/O?

PC-Elevator was one brand.

With the 286, you could run Windows 3.00, but I don't know how well the 
web browser could deal with the modern crap and bloat on the interweb.


I think that it woulod be more fun to go the other way, with something 
like Blue Thunder, to use a Z80 and CP/M.



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Feb  7 14:00:54 2016
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 20:00:54 +0000
Subject: Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK? Yikes I
 am...
In-Reply-To: <46fe1f.170d79d.43e8ddfc@aol.com>
References: <46fe1f.170d79d.43e8ddfc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <56B7A276.7060603@dunnington.plus.com>

On 07/02/2016 17:50, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
>
> Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK?  Yikes I  am...
> This  fun and creative video pretty much  sums   things  up!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA

Epic!

-- 
Pete

From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Sun Feb  7 11:55:13 2016
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 18:55:13 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Message-ID: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>



Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
Less than 15 miles from home  !

The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.


The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :

     M7263 KD11 CPU
2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
     M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
     M7846 RX01 controller
2 x M7814 DZ11-F

and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.

The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid batteries will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
Better not try to charge them....


Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it is packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the top.
Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled, restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working area for the hobby.

Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as an interface !


Jos


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Feb  7 15:13:59 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 13:13:59 -0800
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <6AA6A1CA-A984-4FB7-92D6-E8649D0BA5D3@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-07, at 6:17 AM, Robo58 wrote:

> c). I hand assembled some code to exercise the 6850.  I know it has a
> software reset and then you set attributes.  I tried my buddies echo
> program.  It looks for a received character and then echo's it.  I'm using a
> laptop and PuTTy along with an RS-232 breakout box.  I can see characters
> going in but nothing coming out.  The 6850 appears to drive the bus for a
> finite amount of time and then turn off its drivers.  I don't have any
> experience with the part and I don't know if that's the way it's supposed to
> work or that the Altair has a bus timing issue.

How about doing a program that simply repeatedly outputs a character first, getting that going before trying to deal with input - cuts the problem space in half.
The repeat loop should give you some consistent bus activity and observable waveforms on a scope if you have one, rather than trying to catch events initiated from external input activity.



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Feb  7 15:49:13 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 15:49:13 -0600
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <000301d161f1$62c5fc50$2851f4f0$@classiccmp.org>

Jos wrote...
----------
restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working area for the hobby.
----------
Baaaahahahahaha From experience... it will never be enough space. Double it again. Still won't be enough. These things reproduce *grin*

J



From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Sun Feb  7 16:23:46 2016
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:23:46 -0500
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>

Hi Guys,

I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since I was
in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was wondering if
anyone has put together a document for successfully restoring Altair
computers specifically and retro style computers in general.  Any help is
much appreciated.  I have a bunch of boards in mine.  Here are the pictures.

< https://www.dropbox.com/sh/88mp9wna3myb2ce/AABcNr_ne3ssgVSxR-_YiASva?dl=0>

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

Kip Koon

computerdoc at sc.rr.com

http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon

 


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun Feb  7 16:31:30 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:31:30 -0500
Subject: Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK? Yikes I
 am...
Message-ID: <47428c.6d72e762.43e91fc2@aol.com>

I  am  very envious of the animators skills on those  singing  people in 
the still portraits..
Heh  is there any easy  way to  do  this?   Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 2/7/2016 1:13:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pete at dunnington.plus.com writes:

On  07/02/2016 17:50, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
>
> Tired of  EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK?  Yikes I   am...
> This  fun and creative video pretty much   sums   things  up!
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA

Epic!

--  
Pete


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 16:39:16 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:39:16 -0600
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6WS-JVUYRUw9HyTGXhnTW_TsMSy4y=qwdveZHkQ0yJBw@mail.gmail.com>

I'll not pretend to be any sort of Altair expert, but I did manage a fairly
involved rebuild / restoration of one, about a year back. Here's a link to
the set of documents I collected in the process:

https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/

My machine is restored to what you might call a "freshly built" state, so
the only boards present are the 8080A CPU and a third-party SRAM board. The
front panel is also re-installed and working.

I haven't been able to find (afford..) a genuine MITS RAM board for it,
much as I'd like one. =/

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since I
> was
> in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was wondering if
> anyone has put together a document for successfully restoring Altair
> computers specifically and retro style computers in general.  Any help is
> much appreciated.  I have a bunch of boards in mine.  Here are the
> pictures.
>
> <
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/88mp9wna3myb2ce/AABcNr_ne3ssgVSxR-_YiASva?dl=0>
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Kip Koon
>
> computerdoc at sc.rr.com
>
> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
>
>
>
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 16:43:24 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 15:43:24 -0700
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQKqoUZA-_ty54CWS4S=hwSauHwZQnSSqaoNTTzNSqtBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since I was
> in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was wondering if
> anyone has put together a document for successfully restoring Altair
> computers specifically and retro style computers in general.

IMPORTANT: Do NOT power up until you've tested the DC power supplies
*without* the boards installed. Check DC voltages and ripple. Aluminum
electrolytic filter capacitors may need to be reformed or replaced.
(But let's not restart the argument about which to do!)

From starbase89 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 17:00:55 2016
From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 18:00:55 -0500
Subject: 386 upgrade board
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602071138220.8541@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602071138220.8541@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAOUs0uyiW=OW=zjhkYqEX_zqiOY3+zxnZGOQe5NQO15Yj_wf_A@mail.gmail.com>

That's good to know that they are out there. If anyone has one they would
be willing to part with, please let me know. I'm also in the market for an
ISA hard card if anyone has one.

Thanks,
Joe
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email> This email has been sent from a
virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email>
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Feb 2016, Joe Giliberti wrote:
>
>> Greetings!
>> I have a Televideo luggable that I have been playing with. Its a 10MHz 286
>> with a meg of RAM, 2 360k drives and four expansion slots. I've been
>> trying
>> to figure out how capable I can make this machine for the hell of it. Did
>> anyone make an upgrade kit to go from a 286 to a 386? It would be
>> interesting to get this thing going with that, a Hard Card and an ethernet
>> card, somewhat capable of doing some modern tasks.
>>
>
> Yes, there were several.
> 386SX is the simplest, and can be done with a daughterboard for the
> processor, but there was at least one to full-on 386DX 16bit ISA card,
> although it also had RAM, etc. on it.
>
> There was even an 8-bit ISA one!  I don't understand how that could work,
> unless it just used the 5160/5160 only for I/O?
>
> PC-Elevator was one brand.
>
> With the 286, you could run Windows 3.00, but I don't know how well the
> web browser could deal with the modern crap and bloat on the interweb.
>
>
> I think that it woulod be more fun to go the other way, with something
> like Blue Thunder, to use a Z80 and CP/M.
>
>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 17:03:18 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:03:18 -0600
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQKqoUZA-_ty54CWS4S=hwSauHwZQnSSqaoNTTzNSqtBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAFrGgTQKqoUZA-_ty54CWS4S=hwSauHwZQnSSqaoNTTzNSqtBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4PX8MzM-QSXifnBDQkNvq9cUKqtkLMca0DDvjAAYjd-g@mail.gmail.com>

Good point.. and if you have the later PSU with the 95,000uF 12V cap, pay
close attention to that guy.

FYI, power supplies in the Altair typically work like this: In the chassis,
there are two regulated +18 / -18V supplies of 1A each, and an unregulated
~8V supply capable of substantial current. On the individual boards, the 8V
supply is commonly regulated down to 5V (with 7805, etc.) and when needed,
the +/-18V supplies to +12V / -12V with simple zener diode shunt circuits.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> > I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since I
> was
> > in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was wondering if
> > anyone has put together a document for successfully restoring Altair
> > computers specifically and retro style computers in general.
>
> IMPORTANT: Do NOT power up until you've tested the DC power supplies
> *without* the boards installed. Check DC voltages and ripple. Aluminum
> electrolytic filter capacitors may need to be reformed or replaced.
> (But let's not restart the argument about which to do!)
>

From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Sun Feb  7 17:04:41 2016
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 18:04:41 -0500
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6WS-JVUYRUw9HyTGXhnTW_TsMSy4y=qwdveZHkQ0yJBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAFjrmd6WS-JVUYRUw9HyTGXhnTW_TsMSy4y=qwdveZHkQ0yJBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501d161fb$ed98ba70$c8ca2f50$@sc.rr.com>

Hi drlegendre,
Care go be a sounding board/technician troubleshooter when the time comes for me to start this journey?  :)  

Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc.rr.com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre .
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 5:39 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
> 
> I'll not pretend to be any sort of Altair expert, but I did manage a fairly involved rebuild / restoration of one, about a year back. Here's
> a link to the set of documents I collected in the process:
> 
> https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/
> 
> My machine is restored to what you might call a "freshly built" state, so the only boards present are the 8080A CPU and a third-party
> SRAM board. The front panel is also re-installed and working.
> 
> I haven't been able to find (afford..) a genuine MITS RAM board for it, much as I'd like one. =/
> 
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since
> > I was in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was
> > wondering if anyone has put together a document for successfully
> > restoring Altair computers specifically and retro style computers in
> > general.  Any help is much appreciated.  I have a bunch of boards in
> > mine.  Here are the pictures.
> >
> > <
> > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/88mp9wna3myb2ce/AABcNr_ne3ssgVSxR-_YiASva?d
> > l=0>
> >
> > Any help is greatly appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kip Koon
> >
> > computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> >
> > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
> >
> >
> >
> >


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 17:18:04 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:18:04 -0600
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <007501d161fb$ed98ba70$c8ca2f50$@sc.rr.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAFjrmd6WS-JVUYRUw9HyTGXhnTW_TsMSy4y=qwdveZHkQ0yJBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d161fb$ed98ba70$c8ca2f50$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd58u75P8hei7Uj_HDD-da5Dkv29m-K1dfwOObLNLfa8zQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sure, I'm glad to help - but bear in mind that I'm a technician, not an
engineer - and solid-state logic isn't even my field! ;-)

And please don't leave the other members out of the loop - they're some of
the guys who helped +me+ through +my+ project..



On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi drlegendre,
> Care go be a sounding board/technician troubleshooter when the time comes
> for me to start this journey?  :)
>
> Kip Koon
> computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> drlegendre .
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 5:39 PM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
> circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
> >
> > I'll not pretend to be any sort of Altair expert, but I did manage a
> fairly involved rebuild / restoration of one, about a year back. Here's
> > a link to the set of documents I collected in the process:
> >
> > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/
> >
> > My machine is restored to what you might call a "freshly built" state,
> so the only boards present are the 8080A CPU and a third-party
> > SRAM board. The front panel is also re-installed and working.
> >
> > I haven't been able to find (afford..) a genuine MITS RAM board for it,
> much as I'd like one. =/
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Guys,
> > >
> > > I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up since
> > > I was in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I was
> > > wondering if anyone has put together a document for successfully
> > > restoring Altair computers specifically and retro style computers in
> > > general.  Any help is much appreciated.  I have a bunch of boards in
> > > mine.  Here are the pictures.
> > >
> > > <
> > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/88mp9wna3myb2ce/AABcNr_ne3ssgVSxR-_YiASva?d
> > > l=0>
> > >
> > > Any help is greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kip Koon
> > >
> > > computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> > >
> > > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Sun Feb  7 17:39:06 2016
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 18:39:06 -0500
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd58u75P8hei7Uj_HDD-da5Dkv29m-K1dfwOObLNLfa8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <006d01d161f6$38b489e0$aa1d9da0$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAFjrmd6WS-JVUYRUw9HyTGXhnTW_TsMSy4y=qwdveZHkQ0yJBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d161fb$ed98ba70$c8ca2f50$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAFjrmd58u75P8hei7Uj_HDD-da5Dkv29m-K1dfwOObLNLfa8zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01d16200$bc3691f0$34a3b5d0$@sc.rr.com>

Hi drlegendre,
Sure, that's fine with me.  I'll let you know when I start.  I'm thinking the PS is the first thing to check.  I wonder how the caps are doing, or should I get a nice modern switching power supply.  

Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc.rr.com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre .
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 6:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
> 
> Sure, I'm glad to help - but bear in mind that I'm a technician, not an engineer - and solid-state logic isn't even my field! ;-)
> 
> And please don't leave the other members out of the loop - they're some of the guys who helped +me+ through +my+ project..
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi drlegendre,
> > Care go be a sounding board/technician troubleshooter when the time
> > comes for me to start this journey?  :)
> >
> > Kip Koon
> > computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > drlegendre .
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 5:39 PM
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A
> > > clock
> > circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
> > >
> > > I'll not pretend to be any sort of Altair expert, but I did manage a
> > fairly involved rebuild / restoration of one, about a year back.
> > Here's
> > > a link to the set of documents I collected in the process:
> > >
> > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/
> > >
> > > My machine is restored to what you might call a "freshly built"
> > > state,
> > so the only boards present are the 8080A CPU and a third-party
> > > SRAM board. The front panel is also re-installed and working.
> > >
> > > I haven't been able to find (afford..) a genuine MITS RAM board for
> > > it,
> > much as I'd like one. =/
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Guys,
> > > >
> > > > I also have an original Altair 8800 that has not been powered up
> > > > since I was in my late teens or early twenties.  I'm 56 now and I
> > > > was wondering if anyone has put together a document for
> > > > successfully restoring Altair computers specifically and retro
> > > > style computers in general.  Any help is much appreciated.  I have
> > > > a bunch of boards in mine.  Here are the pictures.
> > > >
> > > > <
> > > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/88mp9wna3myb2ce/AABcNr_ne3ssgVSxR-_YiAS
> > > > va?d
> > > > l=0>
> > > >
> > > > Any help is greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kip Koon
> > > >
> > > > computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> > > >
> > > > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >


From robo58 at optonline.net  Sun Feb  7 18:15:00 2016
From: robo58 at optonline.net (Robo58)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:15:00 -0500
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock circuitry
 and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <6AA6A1CA-A984-4FB7-92D6-E8649D0BA5D3@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <6AA6A1CA-A984-4FB7-92D6-E8649D0BA5D3@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <000001d16205$bfe85d10$3fb91730$@optonline.net>

Hi Brent, Drlegendre and Eric

Brent:  I took your advice and did a little program to output "A"'s and
monitoring Transmitter empty before looping again.  That works fine and it
will run for hours.

Drlegendre:  Thanks for the excellent document link.  My buddy has the MITS
1K static ram and the MITS 4K dynamic ram cards.  I've been doing my testing
with the 1K static ram to limit potential problems.

Eric:  This Altair has the smaller PS with the smaller Electrolytic caps.
They were all replaced and the PS brought up without cards with a Variac.
My buddy bought Kemet Capacitors on the basis of very good ripple current
rating and low ESR.


Thanks Ron

   

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hilpert
Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 4:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board

On 2016-Feb-07, at 6:17 AM, Robo58 wrote:

> c). I hand assembled some code to exercise the 6850.  I know it has a 
> software reset and then you set attributes.  I tried my buddies echo 
> program.  It looks for a received character and then echo's it.  I'm 
> using a laptop and PuTTy along with an RS-232 breakout box.  I can see 
> characters going in but nothing coming out.  The 6850 appears to drive 
> the bus for a finite amount of time and then turn off its drivers.  I 
> don't have any experience with the part and I don't know if that's the 
> way it's supposed to work or that the Altair has a bus timing issue.

How about doing a program that simply repeatedly outputs a character first,
getting that going before trying to deal with input - cuts the problem space
in half.
The repeat loop should give you some consistent bus activity and observable
waveforms on a scope if you have one, rather than trying to catch events
initiated from external input activity.





From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 19:51:57 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:51:57 -0600
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <000001d16205$bfe85d10$3fb91730$@optonline.net>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <6AA6A1CA-A984-4FB7-92D6-E8649D0BA5D3@cs.ubc.ca>
 <000001d16205$bfe85d10$3fb91730$@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7kZjOD2U1aVEstYa5N52dhO=sOMfmmQsEYrH5+tdVMzg@mail.gmail.com>

Kip,

Assuming the initial visual inspection goes well, the PSU is +always+ the
first thing to check.. and that goes for everything from digital computers
to vacuum-tube radios.

Do you have a general background in electrical / electronic
troubleshooting? Do you have a Variac on-hand, or at least a
current-limited AC supply - such as the old light bulb socket in-series, as
was popular in the days before Variacs became affordable to the common man?

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Robo58 <robo58 at optonline.net> wrote:

> Hi Brent, Drlegendre and Eric
>
> Brent:  I took your advice and did a little program to output "A"'s and
> monitoring Transmitter empty before looping again.  That works fine and it
> will run for hours.
>
> Drlegendre:  Thanks for the excellent document link.  My buddy has the MITS
> 1K static ram and the MITS 4K dynamic ram cards.  I've been doing my
> testing
> with the 1K static ram to limit potential problems.
>
> Eric:  This Altair has the smaller PS with the smaller Electrolytic caps.
> They were all replaced and the PS brought up without cards with a Variac.
> My buddy bought Kemet Capacitors on the basis of very good ripple current
> rating and low ESR.
>
>
> Thanks Ron
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
> Hilpert
> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 4:14 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
> circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
>
> On 2016-Feb-07, at 6:17 AM, Robo58 wrote:
>
> > c). I hand assembled some code to exercise the 6850.  I know it has a
> > software reset and then you set attributes.  I tried my buddies echo
> > program.  It looks for a received character and then echo's it.  I'm
> > using a laptop and PuTTy along with an RS-232 breakout box.  I can see
> > characters going in but nothing coming out.  The 6850 appears to drive
> > the bus for a finite amount of time and then turn off its drivers.  I
> > don't have any experience with the part and I don't know if that's the
> > way it's supposed to work or that the Altair has a bus timing issue.
>
> How about doing a program that simply repeatedly outputs a character first,
> getting that going before trying to deal with input - cuts the problem
> space
> in half.
> The repeat loop should give you some consistent bus activity and observable
> waveforms on a scope if you have one, rather than trying to catch events
> initiated from external input activity.
>
>
>
>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Feb  7 20:05:10 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 20:05:10 -0600
Subject: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
 circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7kZjOD2U1aVEstYa5N52dhO=sOMfmmQsEYrH5+tdVMzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000a01d161b2$56b9dfb0$042d9f10$@optonline.net>
 <6AA6A1CA-A984-4FB7-92D6-E8649D0BA5D3@cs.ubc.ca>
 <000001d16205$bfe85d10$3fb91730$@optonline.net>
 <CAFjrmd7kZjOD2U1aVEstYa5N52dhO=sOMfmmQsEYrH5+tdVMzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd54rLDytXHrhnMV9nJcwiLr47DNr1FJA95TZ2nhOrL-Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Pardon this, it was meant to be part of the previous message..

Kip, a modern switching supply won't really win you anything, and IMO, kind
of wrecks the look (and the vintage fun)..

Again, the only regulated supplies produced in the chassis are the +/-18V
and they are limited to 1A. I believe the original design calls for zener
regs controlling pass transistors, but if you're looking for an upgrade,
it's quite reasonable to replace them with the 7818 (+18) and 7918 (-18)
three-pin regulator packs. No muss, no fuss.. built in current and thermal
limiting, and cheap to boot.

And the ~8V supply is a simple one-stage design. Xfmr secondary -> 30A 50V
bridge -> 95,000uF 3" computer-grade bulk capacitor filter.. that's it. At
the most, you'll need a new cap and a $5 bridge pack. Regulating it gets
you nothing, as each card has at least one independent 5V regulator. For
example, my 16K SRAM card actually has 4x 7805 5V regs, one for each of the
four 4K banks.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 7:51 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kip,
>
> Assuming the initial visual inspection goes well, the PSU is +always+ the
> first thing to check.. and that goes for everything from digital computers
> to vacuum-tube radios.
>
> Do you have a general background in electrical / electronic
> troubleshooting? Do you have a Variac on-hand, or at least a
> current-limited AC supply - such as the old light bulb socket in-series, as
> was popular in the days before Variacs became affordable to the common man?
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Robo58 <robo58 at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brent, Drlegendre and Eric
>>
>> Brent:  I took your advice and did a little program to output "A"'s and
>> monitoring Transmitter empty before looping again.  That works fine and it
>> will run for hours.
>>
>> Drlegendre:  Thanks for the excellent document link.  My buddy has the
>> MITS
>> 1K static ram and the MITS 4K dynamic ram cards.  I've been doing my
>> testing
>> with the 1K static ram to limit potential problems.
>>
>> Eric:  This Altair has the smaller PS with the smaller Electrolytic caps.
>> They were all replaced and the PS brought up without cards with a Variac.
>> My buddy bought Kemet Capacitors on the basis of very good ripple current
>> rating and low ESR.
>>
>>
>> Thanks Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
>> Hilpert
>> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 4:14 PM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Help with getting an original Altai running: 8080A clock
>> circuitry and MITS88 2-SIO board
>>
>> On 2016-Feb-07, at 6:17 AM, Robo58 wrote:
>>
>> > c). I hand assembled some code to exercise the 6850.  I know it has a
>> > software reset and then you set attributes.  I tried my buddies echo
>> > program.  It looks for a received character and then echo's it.  I'm
>> > using a laptop and PuTTy along with an RS-232 breakout box.  I can see
>> > characters going in but nothing coming out.  The 6850 appears to drive
>> > the bus for a finite amount of time and then turn off its drivers.  I
>> > don't have any experience with the part and I don't know if that's the
>> > way it's supposed to work or that the Altair has a bus timing issue.
>>
>> How about doing a program that simply repeatedly outputs a character
>> first,
>> getting that going before trying to deal with input - cuts the problem
>> space
>> in half.
>> The repeat loop should give you some consistent bus activity and
>> observable
>> waveforms on a scope if you have one, rather than trying to catch events
>> initiated from external input activity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  7 22:29:03 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 04:29:03 +0000
Subject: Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK? Yikes I
 am...
In-Reply-To: <56B7A276.7060603@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <46fe1f.170d79d.43e8ddfc@aol.com>,
 <56B7A276.7060603@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB072254E72F4AA7559758A5A5A3D50@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I'm just tired of seeing really nice clocks turned into
a pile of junk.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2016 12:00 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK? Yikes I am...

On 07/02/2016 17:50, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
>
> Tired of EVERYTHING with a gear being called STEAMPUNK?  Yikes I  am...
> This  fun and creative video pretty much  sums   things  up!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA

Epic!

--
Pete

From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb  7 22:57:08 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 21:57:08 -0700 (MST)
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016, Jos Dreesen wrote:

> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home  !

First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips.  He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.

Fortunately I started with only one memory board.

All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before
putting in the chips.  It seemed that every time I touched the soldering
iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up.
I never finished the first board and I never started the second board.

Up until then I thought I knew how to solder.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb  7 22:57:08 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 21:57:08 -0700 (MST)
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016, Jos Dreesen wrote:

> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home  !

First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
and a box of memeory chips.  He to told me to double the memory in
the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.

Fortunately I started with only one memory board.

All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before
putting in the chips.  It seemed that every time I touched the soldering
iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up.
I never finished the first board and I never started the second board.

Up until then I thought I knew how to solder.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb  7 15:24:36 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 21:24:36 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> Dreesen
> Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home  !
> 
> The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
> apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
> Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
> machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
> 
> 
> The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
> 
>      M7263 KD11 CPU
> 2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
>      M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
>      M7846 RX01 controller
> 2 x M7814 DZ11-F
> 
> and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
> Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
> 
> The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid batteries
> will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
> Better not try to charge them....
> 
> 
> Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it is
> packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the top.
> Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
> restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
> double working area for the hobby.
> 
> Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as an
> interface !
> 


I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb  7 15:24:36 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2016 21:24:36 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> Dreesen
> Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home  !
> 
> The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
> apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
> Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
> machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
> 
> 
> The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
> 
>      M7263 KD11 CPU
> 2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
>      M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
>      M7846 RX01 controller
> 2 x M7814 DZ11-F
> 
> and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
> Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
> 
> The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid batteries
> will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
> Better not try to charge them....
> 
> 
> Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it is
> packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the top.
> Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
> restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
> double working area for the hobby.
> 
> Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as an
> interface !
> 


I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(

Regards

Rob


From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 02:11:10 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:11:10 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJajz_oHinT6=F8t8Eg+mXLEYNkrUzboYGUgmRLiGnAQQ@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-07 18:55 GMT+01:00 Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch>:

>
>
> Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> Less than 15 miles from home  !
>
> The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
> apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
> Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
> machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
>
>
> The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
>
>     M7263 KD11 CPU
> 2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
>

No, it cannot be M7264. I guess that it is a M7847 MS11-E board. M7264 is
the quad KD11 / LSI-11 CPU board.


>     M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
>     M7846 RX01 controller
> 2 x M7814 DZ11-F
>
> and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
> Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
>
> The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid
> batteries will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
> Better not try to charge them....
>
>
> Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it
> is packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the
> top.
> Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
> restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
> double working area for the hobby.
>

This is a really nice, simple little system. It will happily run RT11 from
from the floppies. The lack of programmer console is a little bit annoying
when debugging it but when it is operating properly the console emulator
will be enough for most purposes. The M9301 is a rather fixed compared with
the M9312 were you can install your own boot ROMs of your own choice. For
example useful things like to have it to boot from TU58 or MSCP devices.

I guess that the CPU box is in a BA11-K box. They are incredibly heavy, but
much much easier to use compared with the BA11-L which is a pain to work
with.
The modularity of the BA11-K is also very nice. I haven't had much trouble
with the PSU modules in the BA11-Ks I have worked with. The lightbulb of
course but other than that they were fine.

Good luck and congratulations to a nice system!


> Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting as
> an interface !
>
>
> Jos
>
>

From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Mon Feb  8 03:01:38 2016
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 20:01:38 +1100
Subject: Master index of ICL / 3R PERQ software?
Message-ID: <CACCFpdzxP9nd8vRzOU-gMXjUCHpGrfkn1Wrpyo8LGPAFaTufuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone made a list of all the known software for the PERQ?

I'm on the hunt for a rumoured port of VAX ML (written in Pascal) to
the PERQ at Edinburgh.

thanks.

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 04:31:00 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 23:31:00 +1300
Subject: Master index of ICL / 3R PERQ software?
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdzxP9nd8vRzOU-gMXjUCHpGrfkn1Wrpyo8LGPAFaTufuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACCFpdzxP9nd8vRzOU-gMXjUCHpGrfkn1Wrpyo8LGPAFaTufuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMK-qea=FtAMWNVtSN959xtFNHSjVc_-SgCqrF3P7dTyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Nigel Williams
<nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> Has anyone made a list of all the known software for the PERQ?
>
> I'm on the hunt for a rumoured port of VAX ML (written in Pascal) to
> the PERQ at Edinburgh.

I have a couple of PERQs - 1 & 2 - originally from ?UCL? as I recall.
Got several boxes of floppies plus whatever's on the hard disks.

No idea on your specific interest but I intend to get into restoring
these machines in the nearish future - they've been gathering dust for
about 20 years! - and I'll keep an eye out.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb  8 08:55:33 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 14:55:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> You're talking about RTC and perhaps a bit of static RAM maintenance. If this
> RTC unit is like most of the same era, the operating voltage range is quite
> wide (probably about 2-7V) and sub-1ma current draw. Chargers for this type of
> application are usually very low current, so "cooking' some AA cells is a very
> remote prospect.  This is hardly a power-hungry project.

 As a matter of interest I've checked the MC146818 datasheet and it claims 
a 50?A current draw in the usual configuration with a 32768Hz oscillator.

  Maciej

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 09:05:06 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:05:06 -0500
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 11:57 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
> and a box of memeory chips.  He to told me to double the memory in
> the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.

I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me...

> Fortunately I started with only one memory board.
>
> All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before
> putting in the chips.  It seemed that every time I touched the soldering
> iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up.
> I never finished the first board and I never started the second board.

Mine was a DEC MSV11 w/128Kbytes installed, solder filling the holes
for the other half of the memory positions.  I did not have problems
with traces lifting from that board (I was using an adjustable Weller
soldering station and had fine control over the temperature).
Installing the DIPs went fine but the first test was not successful -
the new memory did not appear.  Quick inspection and a few bad solder
joints found and reflowed, and two more cycles of that and I had my
256Mbytes.

-ethan

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  8 09:08:16 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:08:16 +0000
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB07221608AE9207CE41F442FCA3D50@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Make sure to neutralize the leaked alkaline stuff from the cells.
Just a simple cleaning isn't enough. I use white vinegar.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 6:55 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> You're talking about RTC and perhaps a bit of static RAM maintenance. If this
> RTC unit is like most of the same era, the operating voltage range is quite
> wide (probably about 2-7V) and sub-1ma current draw. Chargers for this type of
> application are usually very low current, so "cooking' some AA cells is a very
> remote prospect.  This is hardly a power-hungry project.

 As a matter of interest I've checked the MC146818 datasheet and it claims
a 50?A current draw in the usual configuration with a 32768Hz oscillator.

  Maciej

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 09:24:40 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:24:40 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+AO4ibDZdbLmxhAXCtDzbSgoD3mjWpTNP75s5_8LA4rA@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Mine was a DEC MSV11 w/128Kbytes installed, solder filling the holes
> for the other half of the memory positions.  I did not have problems
> with traces lifting from that board (I was using an adjustable Weller
> soldering station and had fine control over the temperature).
> Installing the DIPs went fine but the first test was not successful -
> the new memory did not appear.  Quick inspection and a few bad solder
> joints found and reflowed, and two more cycles of that and I had my
> 256Mbytess.
>


Speaking of such modifications. Many, many years ago I modified a M8044 /
MSV11-D board. Removing all the 16 k chips. Replacing those with desoldered
64k chips. Burning a new address decoding PROM. One wire had to go on top
of the chips since the extra address pin used to be a supply pin of the 16k
chips. It worked after a few iterations. And it actually still works.
http://i.imgur.com/miyVaHC.png

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 09:28:22 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:28:22 +0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>,
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> > First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
> > and a box of memeory chips.  He to told me to double the memory in
> > the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
> 
> I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me...

I heard that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy 1MByte
boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  8 10:30:27 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 08:30:27 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <56B8C2A3.6090609@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2016 06:55 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote:

> As a matter of interest I've checked the MC146818 datasheet and it
> claims a 50?A current draw in the usual configuration with a 32768Hz
> oscillator.

Yup.  And things have only gotten better with time.  I suspect that you 
could power the '818 RTC with a few slices of potato and scavenged wire 
for several months.

--Chuck







From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  8 10:58:06 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 10:58:06 -0600
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>,
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>

On 02/08/2016 09:28 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>> First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s
>>> and a box of memeory chips.  He to told me to double the memory in
>>> the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards.
>> I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me...
> I heard that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
> somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
> chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy 1MByte
> boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
>
>
I assume they didn't buy a service contract with that 
machine?  I doubt DEC would be real happy with that.  Also, 
the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards 
laid out with that signal already in place?

(I seem to recall on the VAX 11/780 they had different array 
boards and memory controller when going from 4K to 16K DRAM 
chips.)

Jon


From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 11:00:59 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:00:59 -0800
Subject: 386 upgrade board
In-Reply-To: <CAOUs0uyiW=OW=zjhkYqEX_zqiOY3+zxnZGOQe5NQO15Yj_wf_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602071138220.8541@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOUs0uyiW=OW=zjhkYqEX_zqiOY3+zxnZGOQe5NQO15Yj_wf_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01CX5qf8UDQcMS2ri01bgt-9DiBZHoXOJ7W72LSh1Gbbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's good to know that they are out there. If anyone has one they would
> be willing to part with, please let me know. I'm also in the market for an
> ISA hard card if anyone has one.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email> This email has been sent from a
> virus-free computer protected by Avast.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email>
> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
Hi Joe,

Since you have a TeleVideo luggable: do you know any of the magic to open
up the cases?  I have a TPC-1 and I need to rebuild its power supply, but
I've yet to figure out how to get it open.  I don't want to break it, and
it seems to be *snapped* together, with a paucity of screws that don't seem
to loosen the cabinet itself.  Thanks for any help you can provide!  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Feb  8 11:05:05 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:05:05 +0000
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

Hi there!
   Does anyone on here do much with RS/6000 boxes?  I'm looking for a 7009-C10, 7011-250, or (mostly) PCI-based 7012 system capable of running AIX 4.1.
   By any chance, anyone have such a system that they'd be willing to sell?

   Thanks much!!

-Ben

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 11:05:38 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 18:05:38 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+nCiVzo6H1-LjX=zowx-B5t=DZSxAbAGLrbQfcBiYKHA@mail.gmail.com>

>> I assume they didn't buy a service contract with that machine?  I doubt
> DEC would be real happy with that.  Also, the 64K RAM chips need an extra
> address pin, were the boards laid out with that signal already in place?
>

Probably not since the new address signal used to be the +5V supply voltage
(on 16 k chip) which one could assume is connected using one of the middle
layers of  of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier in this thread I did
such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I had
to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.

/Mattis


>
> (I seem to recall on the VAX 11/780 they had different array boards and
> memory controller when going from 4K to 16K DRAM chips.)
>
> Jon
>
>

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 11:20:29 2016
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:20:29 -0400
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>

On 2016-02-08 1:05 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> Hi there!
>     Does anyone on here do much with RS/6000 boxes?  I'm looking for a 7009-C10, 7011-250, or (mostly) PCI-based 7012 system capable of running AIX 4.1.
>     By any chance, anyone have such a system that they'd be willing to sell?
>
>     Thanks much!!
>
> -Ben
All of the systems you listed are microchannel machines.  The first PCI 
machines where 7020, 7043, and 7025-F40.  The 7020 run AIX 4.1.1 and the 
7043-140, 240 and 7025-F40 require min 4.1.5  7043-150 requires 4.2.1.

Paul.

From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 11:31:03 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:31:03 -0800
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00gJVCu3C=mL8MjJAY8sfzbzqht49tcy2X2Ju8J8_zbmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Murray McCullough <
c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:

> There is the software side to classic computing: Back in the early
> days we wrote/coded in BASIC-TinyBASIC running in 2K(talk about
> writing efficient code!); EASY and SmallFORTRAN. What apps/programs
> are written in today I don?t know. They certainly can?t run in 2 or 4
> K but is the outcome the same ? make a computer or computer-like
> machine do what we want it to.
>

How about FORTH?  I've always been fond of it, even if it is a write-only
language.  There's a version called SOL-11 that will run in 4kW on a
PDP-11, but it requires the EIS - so much for running that on my PDP-11/20.


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb  8 11:35:45 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:35:45 -0500
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00gJVCu3C=mL8MjJAY8sfzbzqht49tcy2X2Ju8J8_zbmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ00gJVCu3C=mL8MjJAY8sfzbzqht49tcy2X2Ju8J8_zbmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E9BF1F37-9A0F-48F2-89F0-B546A8977A7C@comcast.net>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:31 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Murray McCullough <
> c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> There is the software side to classic computing: Back in the early
>> days we wrote/coded in BASIC-TinyBASIC running in 2K(talk about
>> writing efficient code!); EASY and SmallFORTRAN. What apps/programs
>> are written in today I don?t know. They certainly can?t run in 2 or 4
>> K but is the outcome the same ? make a computer or computer-like
>> machine do what we want it to.
>> 
> 
> How about FORTH?  I've always been fond of it, even if it is a write-only
> language.  There's a version called SOL-11 that will run in 4kW on a
> PDP-11, but it requires the EIS - so much for running that on my PDP-11/20.

There's FIG-Forth for the PDP11.  That has a few EIS instructions in it but that would be quite easy to change.  

	paul



From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 11:44:25 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:44:25 -0800
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <E9BF1F37-9A0F-48F2-89F0-B546A8977A7C@comcast.net>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ00gJVCu3C=mL8MjJAY8sfzbzqht49tcy2X2Ju8J8_zbmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E9BF1F37-9A0F-48F2-89F0-B546A8977A7C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00eo9TP=6tdRyhYe7ffUXnB0XShqSJGwHMc7tKWKRxQXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:31 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Murray McCullough <
> > c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There is the software side to classic computing: Back in the early
> >> days we wrote/coded in BASIC-TinyBASIC running in 2K(talk about
> >> writing efficient code!); EASY and SmallFORTRAN. What apps/programs
> >> are written in today I don?t know. They certainly can?t run in 2 or 4
> >> K but is the outcome the same ? make a computer or computer-like
> >> machine do what we want it to.
> >>
> >
> > How about FORTH?  I've always been fond of it, even if it is a write-only
> > language.  There's a version called SOL-11 that will run in 4kW on a
> > PDP-11, but it requires the EIS - so much for running that on my
> PDP-11/20.
>
> There's FIG-Forth for the PDP11.  That has a few EIS instructions in it
> but that would be quite easy to change.
>
>         paul
>
>
> FIG-Forth runs on RT-11, right?  I only have the original 4kW in my
11/20....

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Feb  8 12:02:56 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 18:02:56 +0000
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>,
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

Hi Paul!
   Thanks for the correction.  I don't know why I thought some of those had a PCI slot or two.  So nevermind the PCI part.  But I could still use a box that'll run 3.2.5 up through at least 4.1.5...

Thanks!

-Ben

________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Berger [phb.hfx at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 9:20 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: AIX 4.1-capable box

On 2016-02-08 1:05 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> Hi there!
>     Does anyone on here do much with RS/6000 boxes?  I'm looking for a 7009-C10, 7011-250, or (mostly) PCI-based 7012 system capable of running AIX 4.1.
>     By any chance, anyone have such a system that they'd be willing to sell?
>
>     Thanks much!!
>
> -Ben
All of the systems you listed are microchannel machines.  The first PCI
machines where 7020, 7043, and 7025-F40.  The 7020 run AIX 4.1.1 and the
7043-140, 240 and 7025-F40 require min 4.1.5  7043-150 requires 4.2.1.

Paul.

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 12:09:53 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:09:53 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
Message-ID: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>

Just wanted to let folks know where I am with respect to the MEM11 project.

I had decided to take a break from writing J1 code and updating the simulator to actually work on
the hardware.

To make things easy for myself, I decided to use my FPGA eval board and build a daughter board
with CPLDs and other parts (FRAMs, etc) so that I could have another vehicle for validating the J1
code.  This should also be a fairly simple board to build and I could focus on functionality (and test
points) rather than trying to make it fit into an SPC form factor.

I wrote a lot of the Verilog code for the CPLDs and quickly found out that my partitioning wouldn?t
fit in any reasonably sized CPLDs.  Even with some additional re-partitioning, it was touchy as to
if it would fit (changing a couple of lines of Verilog code caused the design to no longer fit).

I went back and thought about the problem and decided that the easiest thing to do would be to
create a non-SPC formfactor board that was SW & HW functionally correct.  So, I?ve been working
on writing all of the code to fit in an FPGA.  One advantage is that I could re-use a lot of the code
that I wrote for the CPLDs.

Last night I managed to get a reasonably clean synthesis of the design.  The only thing missing is
the UNIBUS code (which I hadn?t written yet).  It fits easily into the FPGA that I?ve chosen (a Xilinx
Spartan 3-E 500).

By going this route, I?ve discovered some incorrect assumptions that I?ve made in terms of how the
HW will appear to the J1 code.  So I have to update the simulator to match this and the relevant J1
code.

So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion on the need to actually produce
an SBC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with how peripherals were done on the
original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20 chassis and connect via BC11A
(my replica) cables?

I wanted to put that out, because it may require a fair amount of work to make everything fit into an
SPC form factor.  That?s assuming of course that the power requirements for the MEM11 can be
fulfilled by a single SPC slot.  One of the things that I can do with the ?prototype? is actually measure
the incoming power.  I?m hoping that it will but in the worst case, it may require splitting the MEM11
functionality across multiple boards.

TTFN - Guy

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 12:33:38 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 18:33:38 +0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>,
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> > I heard that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
> > somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
> > chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy 1MByte
> > boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
> >
> >
> I assume they didn't buy a service contract with that

Almost certainly not. When I was there (many years later) we
did a lot of self-maintenance on everything. 

> machine?  I doubt DEC would be real happy with that.  Also,
> the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards
> laid out with that signal already in place?

Yes. IIRC there were some jumpers to re-set, but the boards were the same.

-tony

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb  8 12:36:03 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:36:03 -0500
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00eo9TP=6tdRyhYe7ffUXnB0XShqSJGwHMc7tKWKRxQXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ00gJVCu3C=mL8MjJAY8sfzbzqht49tcy2X2Ju8J8_zbmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E9BF1F37-9A0F-48F2-89F0-B546A8977A7C@comcast.net>
 <CAKtEJ00eo9TP=6tdRyhYe7ffUXnB0XShqSJGwHMc7tKWKRxQXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41284E1D-FE82-4CE5-B56F-43DFF0F6270A@comcast.net>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> There's FIG-Forth for the PDP11.  That has a few EIS instructions in it
>> but that would be quite easy to change.
>> 
>>        paul
>> 
>> 
>> FIG-Forth runs on RT-11, right?  I only have the original 4kW in my
> 11/20....

The version I first saw was for RT-11, yes.  But converting it for bare metal is not a big job; the I/O is very basic.

	paul



From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 12:46:13 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:46:13 +0000
Subject: 6502 CPUs
Message-ID: <D2DE92F5.51E5A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

Hi folks,

Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
valuable?

I know Mouser have got the 're-released' WDC 65C02 which I may end up going
for since for 10 they're as low as ukp4.37, but don't us collectors have
bundles of spares?

Funny when I think of the number of BBC Micros that have been tossed over
the years....

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb  8 13:21:14 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 11:21:14 -0800
Subject: NiCd battery replacement in vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB07221608AE9207CE41F442FCA3D50@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <19A7ED5E-91D0-41D4-B3E1-B1569554E291@nf6x.net>
 <858F3E18-3CEF-405B-ADE9-2D0A2450954E@cs.ubc.ca> <56B697DC.3070908@sydex.com>
 <D0201722-13FF-42AB-A2CA-A334194040BA@orthanc.ca>
 <56B6B76B.2020503@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602081450090.2715@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <BN3PR14MB07221608AE9207CE41F442FCA3D50@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <A12BE983-E870-4C96-ADB5-5A72626B5364@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 07:08 , dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Make sure to neutralize the leaked alkaline stuff from the cells.
> Just a simple cleaning isn't enough. I use white vinegar.

I physically removed the affected area down to bare copper and fiberglass:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cajr9LcUAAAAiIq.jpg:large


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 08:30 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Yup.  And things have only gotten better with time.  I suspect that you could power the '818 RTC with a few slices of potato and scavenged wire for several months.


Or at least until I get hungry. :)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From starbase89 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 13:24:31 2016
From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 14:24:31 -0500
Subject: 386 upgrade board
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01CX5qf8UDQcMS2ri01bgt-9DiBZHoXOJ7W72LSh1Gbbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOUs0uyzEj1ZVegqE1WwDHjviUB9Gu9=p47gRc3oMm1FK2Z=AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602071138220.8541@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOUs0uyiW=OW=zjhkYqEX_zqiOY3+zxnZGOQe5NQO15Yj_wf_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ01CX5qf8UDQcMS2ri01bgt-9DiBZHoXOJ7W72LSh1Gbbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOUs0uw8o0xLccZmbfq_+u9OOWmevWqWj1oOvGDmyf8eRmK4Lw@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't tried yet. I'll let you know if I am successful!
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email> This email has been sent from a
virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email>
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Joe Giliberti <starbase89 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That's good to know that they are out there. If anyone has one they would
> > be willing to part with, please let me know. I'm also in the market for
> an
> > ISA hard card if anyone has one.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Joe
> > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email> This email has been sent from a
> > virus-free computer protected by Avast.
> > www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email>
> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> >
> Hi Joe,
>
> Since you have a TeleVideo luggable: do you know any of the magic to open
> up the cases?  I have a TPC-1 and I need to rebuild its power supply, but
> I've yet to figure out how to get it open.  I don't want to break it, and
> it seems to be *snapped* together, with a paucity of screws that don't seem
> to loosen the cabinet itself.  Thanks for any help you can provide!  -- Ian
>
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
> Narrative Through a Design Lens
>
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
>
> University of Washington
>
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb  8 13:53:56 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 11:53:56 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org>



On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion on the need to actually produce
> an SBC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with how peripherals were done on the
> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20 chassis and connect via BC11A
> (my replica) cables?
>
>
main problem would be now you'll have to come up with a box and a power 
supply

I assume you meant SPC (quad unibus) and not SBC



From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 14:04:54 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:04:54 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03NLiHGHPyOcbELF9+yPzYqNDHNEFCFZSbMQ9ufF3nejg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>> So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion on
>> the need to actually produce
>> an SBC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with how
>> peripherals were done on the
>> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20
>> chassis and connect via BC11A
>> (my replica) cables?
>>
>>
>> main problem would be now you'll have to come up with a box and a power
> supply
>
> I assume you meant SPC (quad unibus) and not SBC
>
>
>
I'm envisioning a 1U enclosure connecting to the 11/20 by BC11A, as you
suggest.  The device could have its own PSU to avoid the risk of
overloading the 11/20's supply, and fit in a standard rack if desired.
Make it so!  :-)

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  8 14:23:54 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 2016 15:23:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Programming
Message-ID: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ian S. King

    > so much for running that on my PDP-11/20

If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-)

	Noel

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 14:25:26 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 20:25:26 +0000
Subject: 6502 CPUs
Message-ID: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

2nd go, apologies if another version of this arrives but I sent it from a
non-list address so it might not get through with the emergency moderation
going on.

Hi folks,

Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
valuable?

I know Mouser have got the 're-released' WDC 65C02 which I may end up going
for since for 10 they're as low as ukp4.37, but don't us collectors have
bundles of spares?

Funny when I think of the number of BBC Micros that have been tossed over
the years....

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 14:30:03 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:30:03 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>



On 2/8/16 11:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>
> On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion 
>> on the need to actually produce
>> an SBC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with 
>> how peripherals were done on the
>> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20 
>> chassis and connect via BC11A
>> (my replica) cables?
>>
>>
> main problem would be now you'll have to come up with a box and a 
> power supply
As Ian stated in a subsequent post, it'll probably be something like a 
1U box with appropriate power
supply.  When I get to the point of doing serious board layout, then 
I'll start looking at board outlines
(with appropriate mounting holes and power supply connectors) that would 
fit in a reasonable
enclosure.

I'm hoping that my "prototype" will be sufficient where I don't need to 
re-layout the board for
production.  There may be extra pads for stuff (various test 
connectors/test points) that won't
be stuffed for production...but that's all a bit down the road.
>
> I assume you meant SPC (quad unibus) and not SBC

Yes, typo!  :-(

TTFN  - Guy


From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 14:31:38 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:31:38 -0800
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Ian S. King
>
>     > so much for running that on my PDP-11/20
>
> If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-)
>
>         Noel
>

Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch  Mon Feb  8 14:40:07 2016
From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 21:40:07 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <000301d161f1$62c5fc50$2851f4f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <000301d161f1$62c5fc50$2851f4f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56B8FD27.30107@bluewin.ch>

On 07.02.2016 22:49, Jay West wrote:
> Jos wrote...
> ----------
> restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly double working area for the hobby.
> ----------
> Baaaahahahahaha From experience... it will never be enough space. Double it again. Still won't be enough. These things reproduce *grin*
>
> J
>
>
>
Na, Swiss real estate prices will very soon put a limit on that !

Jos (currently sharing the studyroom with 6 filled 19"racks)

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 14:40:52 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:40:52 -0800
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0201A762-B39F-4D1D-BB31-94DE04ABC607@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:31 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Ian S. King
>> 
>>> so much for running that on my PDP-11/20
>> 
>> If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-)
>> 
>>        Noel
>> 
> 
> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20?.

Mine too!  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  8 14:43:03 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 2016 15:43:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MEM11 update
Message-ID: <20160208204303.55ACE18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Guy Sotomayor


    > I also wanted to get folk's opinion on the need to actually produce an
    > S[P]C form factor board. ... is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of
    > the 11/20 chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables?

Well, that's going to up the cost; for some people, that might be an issue.

Also, I dunno if there are people out there with table-top 11/15's-20's (they
did exist BITD, I worked with a table-top one), but for them, an additional
box might be a hassle too.

    > That's assuming of course that the power requirements for the MEM11
    > can be fulfilled by a single SPC slot. ... in the worst case, it may
    > require splitting the MEM11 functionality across multiple boards.

I guess I don't see the harm in making it two SPC (quad) boards? A flat cable
or two to connect across (I dunno how extensive the interconnect requirements
between the halves would be, and I have forgotten what the inter-slot
interconnect capabilities of an SPC backplane are - ISTR that it has some
bussing on the F section pins) would be easy and cheap.

	Noel

From ccmpcpg at yahoo.de  Mon Feb  8 14:46:38 2016
From: ccmpcpg at yahoo.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 21:46:38 +0100
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <aa5b783aac15daa752c11c320892f698@farumdata.dk>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <aa5b783aac15daa752c11c320892f698@farumdata.dk>
Message-ID: <56B8FEAE.9080203@yahoo.de>

On 02/07/16 09:31, nico at farumdata.dk wrote:
> I really hate this damned machine
> I wish that they would sell it
> it never does quite what I want
> but only what I tell it


I'm still working on a "do-what-I-want" program. It's difficult to 
implement...

But I already have a good idea of the layout of the GUI version:

Just one big red button in the middle of the window with description "Do 
what I want".

:-)

regards,
chris


From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 14:54:25 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 12:54:25 -0800
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <56B8FEAE.9080203@yahoo.de>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <aa5b783aac15daa752c11c320892f698@farumdata.dk>
 <56B8FEAE.9080203@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00GA17J6ZBGW=oCjX58a=ArqV5vAhhHBFkCnKTJ+f-3=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Christian Groessler <ccmpcpg at yahoo.de>
wrote:

> On 02/07/16 09:31, nico at farumdata.dk wrote:
>
>> I really hate this damned machine
>> I wish that they would sell it
>> it never does quite what I want
>> but only what I tell it
>>
>
>
> I'm still working on a "do-what-I-want" program. It's difficult to
> implement...
>
> But I already have a good idea of the layout of the GUI version:
>
> Just one big red button in the middle of the window with description "Do
> what I want".
>
> :-)
>
> regards,
> chris
>
>
I recall a version of Prolog that had a DWIM ('do what I mean') mode, which
applied some heuristics to minimize the impact of typos.  I'm not sure that
I like the idea of the machine second-guessing my logic - I usually leave
that to my Spousal Unit.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From 100dashsix at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:01:02 2016
From: 100dashsix at gmail.com (Dan K)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:01:02 -0500
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <56B8FEAE.9080203@yahoo.de>
References: <CAMvyYF9eBoLrrOkrUwvzZF_eh1P==o1_gHFiOAaty_36B2eMjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <aa5b783aac15daa752c11c320892f698@farumdata.dk>
 <56B8FEAE.9080203@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <CAAQ+N0WUErbCwKXQZ2m_adxJKk_=2YA0HsTiJ0iFRwmXxBpyqw@mail.gmail.com>

This reminds me that last year when MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro
Computing Hobbyists) restored a PDP-8 that had come from a high school
computing club, they dumped the magnetic core memory and found three
programs:

1. A program to dump memory contents to paper tape

2. Some common utilities for debugging

3. At address 200 there was a program that had a fatal bug in it, but
had the young high school programmer been successful in fixing it, it
would've printed out the string "COMPUTERS ARE SHIT."

-Dan

On 2/8/16, Christian Groessler <ccmpcpg at yahoo.de> wrote:
> On 02/07/16 09:31, nico at farumdata.dk wrote:
>> I really hate this damned machine
>> I wish that they would sell it
>> it never does quite what I want
>> but only what I tell it
>
>
> I'm still working on a "do-what-I-want" program. It's difficult to
> implement...
>
> But I already have a good idea of the layout of the GUI version:
>
> Just one big red button in the middle of the window with description "Do
> what I want".
>
> :-)
>
> regards,
> chris
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:03:17 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:03:17 -0500
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org> <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmdjtg30YgvgMGV1HhZaOAUAMerfOr4rEwfS23tkftpAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>>> So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion on
>>> the need to actually produce
>>> an SPC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with how
>>> peripherals were done on the
>>> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20
>>> chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables?

For my own case, I have a 3-box 11/20 that I need to restore (as I've posted
before, it was chopped apart and dumpstered, and I recovered it from there).
The majority of the second and third boxes is MM11-E core memory units
(I have N-1 because one of my co-workers nabbed a core plane to hang on
the wall).  My plan with the MEM11 has been to restore the CPU cabinet
and use the memory on the MEM11 instead of the MM11-E units, leaving
me plenty of space and power supply for peripherals with the ultimate goal
of running UNIX v1 on it (I also have an RK11C that would be a secondary
restoration project, or an RK11D that should "just work")

With that, I had been expecting that the MEM11 would be an SPC board
that would just sit in a DD11CK with some other periperhals.  Apparently,
it's sounding like there's too much "stuff" for a single quad-height card then?
Is it component density or having to go to a 4-layer board that's an issue?

> As Ian stated in a subsequent post, it'll probably be something like a 1U
> box with appropriate power supply.

That will certainly be functional, but it seems to up the cost quite a bit.

I would rather have an external something that works than not have
anything at all, but I think an SPC, if possible, would be the most
portable of solutions.

If this was an external device, would it just have a pair of 60-pin cables
to your replica BC11A?  Would it then have an onboard terminator or
option to install a terminator?  I get that you won't be selling the MEM11
as a bare board, but it doesn't seem that the intended audience would
be put out by soldering their own 60-pin connectors and/or a bunch of
terminating resistors if it needed to be at the end of a chain or in the
middle.

-ethan

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 15:04:43 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:04:43 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <20160208204303.55ACE18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160208204303.55ACE18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <16241E05-0906-4A45-BD95-3AB56D104E0F@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Guy Sotomayor
> 
> 
>> I also wanted to get folk's opinion on the need to actually produce an
>> S[P]C form factor board. ... is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of
>> the 11/20 chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables?
> 
> Well, that's going to up the cost; for some people, that might be an issue.

The reality (unfortunately) is that no matter what solution I take, it?s not
going to be inexpensive.  The reality is that an SPC board will be more
expensive because of the gold edge fingers.

The other thing is that the boards will be fully assembled.  Except for some
connectors and the UNIBUS transceivers, everything else is surface mount.
I?m still crossing my fingers that I can keep within the 208 pin PQFP for the
FPGA and not have to move into a BGA part.

> 
> Also, I dunno if there are people out there with table-top 11/15's-20's (they
> did exist BITD, I worked with a table-top one), but for them, an additional
> box might be a hassle too.
> 
>> That's assuming of course that the power requirements for the MEM11
>> can be fulfilled by a single SPC slot. ... in the worst case, it may
>> require splitting the MEM11 functionality across multiple boards.
> 
> I guess I don't see the harm in making it two SPC (quad) boards? A flat cable
> or two to connect across (I dunno how extensive the interconnect requirements
> between the halves would be, and I have forgotten what the inter-slot
> interconnect capabilities of an SPC backplane are - ISTR that it has some
> bussing on the F section pins) would be easy and cheap.

See above re: gold edge fingers.  I was originally thinking that if I do have to
split the board up, that I?d make them completely independent.  But that has 
the issue of requiring 2x the number of UNIBUS transceiver parts (which are
all but unobtainium as of now).  One of the things that drives up the power (and
board area) are said transceivers (and level shifters, etc).  If I could come up
with a reasonable alternative for the SPC version, that may work.  But that?s
all in the future at the moment.

TTFN - Guy


From isking at uw.edu  Mon Feb  8 15:08:52 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:08:52 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <16241E05-0906-4A45-BD95-3AB56D104E0F@shiresoft.com>
References: <20160208204303.55ACE18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <16241E05-0906-4A45-BD95-3AB56D104E0F@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02JUrneUqoACn5fqepxT03JBVTn8GBRSdxGS-g=uwz+Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Guy Sotomayor
> >
> >
> >> I also wanted to get folk's opinion on the need to actually produce an
> >> S[P]C form factor board. ... is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of
> >> the 11/20 chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables?
> >
> > Well, that's going to up the cost; for some people, that might be an
> issue.
>
> The reality (unfortunately) is that no matter what solution I take, it?s
> not
> going to be inexpensive.  The reality is that an SPC board will be more
> expensive because of the gold edge fingers.
>
> The other thing is that the boards will be fully assembled.  Except for
> some
> connectors and the UNIBUS transceivers, everything else is surface mount.
> I?m still crossing my fingers that I can keep within the 208 pin PQFP for
> the
> FPGA and not have to move into a BGA part.
>
> >
> > Also, I dunno if there are people out there with table-top 11/15's-20's
> (they
> > did exist BITD, I worked with a table-top one), but for them, an
> additional
> > box might be a hassle too.
> >
> >> That's assuming of course that the power requirements for the MEM11
> >> can be fulfilled by a single SPC slot. ... in the worst case, it may
> >> require splitting the MEM11 functionality across multiple boards.
> >
> > I guess I don't see the harm in making it two SPC (quad) boards? A flat
> cable
> > or two to connect across (I dunno how extensive the interconnect
> requirements
> > between the halves would be, and I have forgotten what the inter-slot
> > interconnect capabilities of an SPC backplane are - ISTR that it has some
> > bussing on the F section pins) would be easy and cheap.
>
> See above re: gold edge fingers.  I was originally thinking that if I do
> have to
> split the board up, that I?d make them completely independent.  But that
> has
> the issue of requiring 2x the number of UNIBUS transceiver parts (which are
> all but unobtainium as of now).  One of the things that drives up the
> power (and
> board area) are said transceivers (and level shifters, etc).  If I could
> come up
> with a reasonable alternative for the SPC version, that may work.  But
> that?s
> all in the future at the moment.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
A thought: would a second quad board necessarily need transceivers?  I'm
thinking of the top-block connectors used in the PDP-8, and the top-plugged
ribbon cables for e.g., MicroVAX II CPU-to-memory connection.  You might
still want to grab power through a few fingers, but that's an
implementation detail.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb  8 07:20:04 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 05:20:04 -0800
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>

Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to
substitute a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers
with remote sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that
route, be very very careful of Chinese supplies.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> > Dreesen
> > Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> >
> >
> >
> > Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> > Less than 15 miles from home  !
> >
> > The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
> > apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
> > Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
> > machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
> >
> >
> > The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
> >
> >      M7263 KD11 CPU
> > 2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
> >      M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
> >      M7846 RX01 controller
> > 2 x M7814 DZ11-F
> >
> > and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
> > Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
> >
> > The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid
> batteries
> > will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
> > Better not try to charge them....
> >
> >
> > Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it
> is
> > packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the
> top.
> > Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
> > restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
> > double working area for the hobby.
> >
> > Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting
> as an
> > interface !
> >
>
>
> I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work,
> and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much
> better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one
> fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe,
> so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb  8 07:20:04 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 05:20:04 -0800
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>

Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to
substitute a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers
with remote sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that
route, be very very careful of Chinese supplies.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> > Dreesen
> > Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> >
> >
> >
> > Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> > Less than 15 miles from home  !
> >
> > The machine spend its early days as a processor in chemical analysis
> > apparatus, and was subsequently bought by the employee using it.
> > Before he could make use of it better, more powerful, easier to use
> > machines came along and the -11 spend the next 30 years in a garage.
> >
> >
> > The -04 is an entry level machine, and the cards inside match this :
> >
> >      M7263 KD11 CPU
> > 2 x M7264 16K DRAM cards
> >      M7856 DL11 SLU/RTC
> >      M7846 RX01 controller
> > 2 x M7814 DZ11-F
> >
> > and of course the M9301, M9302 and M9202.
> > Alas it has just the simple 2-switch frontpanel.
> >
> > The machine also had the battery backup option, and the lead/acid
> batteries
> > will celebrate their 40th birthday next year !
> > Better not try to charge them....
> >
> >
> > Overall the machine is in very good condition, both CPU and RX01, and it
> is
> > packed in a very nice half-height rack with the red PDP11 bezel at the
> top.
> > Pictures next week when the machine is cleaned and reassembled,
> > restoration is to start next winter, after a house move which will nearly
> > double working area for the hobby.
> >
> > Many thanks to Roland for preserving the machine, and to Jay for acting
> as an
> > interface !
> >
>
>
> I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work,
> and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much
> better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one
> fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe,
> so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
>

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  8 08:51:16 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:51:16 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS29CF79C04FBD66BA2387BB86D50@phx.gbl>

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos
> > Dreesen
> > Sent: 07 February 2016 17:55
> > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> >
> > Yesterday I picked up the PDP11/04 that Jay mentioned a few days ago.
> > Less than 15 miles from home  !



On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work,
> and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs 
> much
> better than I do. It has core memory so I really would like to get his one
> fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come available in the UK or Europe,
> so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(
>
> Regards
>
> Rob


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Pete Lancashire
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 2:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org ; jdr_use at bluewin.ch
Subject: Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..

Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to
substitute a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers
with remote sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that
route, be very very careful of Chinese supplies.

------
Jos,
great catch!  And so close to home ... you're very lucky ;-)

Rob,
the PSU of the 11/04 has a big transformer in the primary. Secondary
is just 24-30 VAC. The "bricks" are not overwhelming complicated.
They all have the 24 VAC as input which is rectified by a bridge and
followed by a big capacitor. There is also a fuse. A first check would
be these 3 components. Then the uA723 (or LM723) regulator ...
Only the +15V (or is it the -15V?) needs the - (or +) 15V besides
the 24VAC input.

Pete,
although you could use a "modern power supply", nothing beats
the original stuff. Also you need some some components to
generate the AC LO and DC LO signals. The 11/04 needs them.

- Henk 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 09:25:15 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:25:15 +0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>,
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that others
> have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has core
>  memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
>  available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(

Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and 10.5" versions, there
may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5" one, BA11-K IIRC, is a fairly
easy supply to work on, it's a big mains transformer and the DEC switching regulator bricks.
The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is a normal-ish
SMPSU. I have worked on both.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb  8 09:25:15 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:25:15 +0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>,
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not work, and that others
> have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than I do. It has core
>  memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
>  available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy job. :-(

Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and 10.5" versions, there
may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5" one, BA11-K IIRC, is a fairly
easy supply to work on, it's a big mains transformer and the DEC switching regulator bricks.
The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is a normal-ish
SMPSU. I have worked on both.

-tony

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Mon Feb  8 09:35:22 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:35:22 -0500
Subject: Solid state recommendations
Message-ID: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>

Hi all

I have the following gear in my stable:

- Sun Blade 100
- SGI O2
- VAXstation 3100
- AlphaStation 500
- HP C3700

I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these
boxes for noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks
recommend a solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but
I didn't know if there was one kind over another that people have been
successful with or if there is a totally different approach I should
be considering.

Thanks,
Bryan

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 10:20:22 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:20:22 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKsGuLEi34b2cG6h7K=yFjszz5Wi85bPYP4EkC=eT3o1Q@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-08 16:25 GMT+01:00 tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:

> >
> > I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not
> work, and that others
> > have tried to fix it before me, who probably know PSUs much better than
> I do. It has core
> >  memory so I really would like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a
> PSU for it come
> >  available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy
> job. :-(
>
> Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and
> 10.5" versions, there
> may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5" one, BA11-K
> IIRC, is a fairly
> easy supply to work on, it's a big mains transformer and the DEC switching
> regulator bricks.
> The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is
> a normal-ish
> SMPSU. I have worked on both.
>

The H765 PSU in the BA11-K and the H777 supply in the BA11-L are fairly
similar. Both have a big mains transformer. Both have the switchers on the
low voltage side, so they are fairly easy to work with both of them. The
big advantage with the H765 is the modular design.


> -tony
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 13:38:07 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 19:38:07 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>,
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <013101d162a8$3c3ddcd0$b4b99670$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
> duell
> Sent: 08 February 2016 15:25
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>;
> jdr_use at bluewin.ch; classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> >
> > I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not
> > work, and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably
> > know PSUs much better than I do. It has core  memory so I really would
> > like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
> > available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy
> > job. :-(
> 
> Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and
10.5"
> versions, there may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5"
> one, BA11-K IIRC, is a fairly easy supply to work on, it's a big mains
> transformer and the DEC switching regulator bricks.
> The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is
a
> normal-ish SMPSU. I have worked on both.
> 


Sadly it is a H777. I have not even opened it up to look at yet. Until
recently I was fixing the PSU in my rtVAX 1000 (H7864, in a BA23) and the
H7874 from my VAX 4000-500, then I would still like to fix the H7140 from my
11/24, before getting to this one.

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 13:38:07 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 19:38:07 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>,
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61DF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <013101d162a8$3c3ddcd0$b4b99670$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
> duell
> Sent: 08 February 2016 15:25
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>;
> jdr_use at bluewin.ch; classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> >
> > I have one of these on my restoration list. I know the PSU does not
> > work, and that others have tried to fix it before me, who probably
> > know PSUs much better than I do. It has core  memory so I really would
> > like to get his one fixed. I have never seen a PSU for it come
> > available in the UK or Europe, so it looks like it won't be an easy
> > job. :-(
> 
> Which mounting box is it? (The 11/04 could certainly come in 5.25" and
10.5"
> versions, there may have been several versions of each). The common 10.5"
> one, BA11-K IIRC, is a fairly easy supply to work on, it's a big mains
> transformer and the DEC switching regulator bricks.
> The common 5.25" one, with the H777 PSU, is a bit more nasty, the H777 is
a
> normal-ish SMPSU. I have worked on both.
> 


Sadly it is a H777. I have not even opened it up to look at yet. Until
recently I was fixing the PSU in my rtVAX 1000 (H7864, in a BA23) and the
H7874 from my VAX 4000-500, then I would still like to fix the H7140 from my
11/24, before getting to this one.

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 13:38:47 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 19:38:47 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013201d162a8$543d5b30$fcb81190$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete
> Lancashire
> Sent: 08 February 2016 13:20
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; jdr_use at bluewin.ch
> Subject: Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to substitute
> a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers with remote
> sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that route, be very very
> careful of Chinese supplies.
> 

I should look at that idea.

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 13:38:47 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 19:38:47 -0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <008c01d161ed$f1fbf5e0$d5f3e1a0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAA-F0u9xA0BPQGKVn8EGfYNCVkdyN_tAC5qz5mWAZNcq398k0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013201d162a8$543d5b30$fcb81190$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete
> Lancashire
> Sent: 08 February 2016 13:20
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; jdr_use at bluewin.ch
> Subject: Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
> 
> Until one can restore the original power supply, it is pretty easy to substitute
> a modern supply, good quality used commercial grade switchers with remote
> sensing can but put on a rack shelf. But if you take that route, be very very
> careful of Chinese supplies.
> 

I should look at that idea.

Regards

Rob


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 15:13:31 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:13:31 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmdjtg30YgvgMGV1HhZaOAUAMerfOr4rEwfS23tkftpAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org> <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimmdjtg30YgvgMGV1HhZaOAUAMerfOr4rEwfS23tkftpAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <64A3D894-B04A-475F-A9DE-EBB2672FB0CA@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>>>> So, things are moving forward.  I also wanted to get folk's opinion on
>>>> the need to actually produce
>>>> an SPC form factor board.  In other words (and sort of in line with how
>>>> peripherals were done on the
>>>> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20
>>>> chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables?
> 
> For my own case, I have a 3-box 11/20 that I need to restore (as I've posted
> before, it was chopped apart and dumpstered, and I recovered it from there).
> The majority of the second and third boxes is MM11-E core memory units
> (I have N-1 because one of my co-workers nabbed a core plane to hang on
> the wall).  My plan with the MEM11 has been to restore the CPU cabinet
> and use the memory on the MEM11 instead of the MM11-E units, leaving
> me plenty of space and power supply for peripherals with the ultimate goal
> of running UNIX v1 on it (I also have an RK11C that would be a secondary
> restoration project, or an RK11D that should "just work")
> 
> With that, I had been expecting that the MEM11 would be an SPC board
> that would just sit in a DD11CK with some other periperhals.  Apparently,
> it's sounding like there's too much "stuff" for a single quad-height card then?

I don?t know at this point but I?m getting ?uncomfortable? with the amount of
?stuff? on this board (most can?t really be helped).  I won?t know until I sit down
and do serious board layout.  The prototype will tell me a lot.

> Is it component density or having to go to a 4-layer board that's an issue?

It?s component density.  I have been assuming a 4-layer board from the get-go.

The other issue is daisy chaining of some of the signals.  I?m already running
out of pins on the PQFP and that just adds to the congestion.  I could probably
handle some of that with a small CPLD but again that adds to the board
congestion.

> 
>> As Ian stated in a subsequent post, it'll probably be something like a 1U
>> box with appropriate power supply.
> 
> That will certainly be functional, but it seems to up the cost quite a bit.
> 
> I would rather have an external something that works than not have
> anything at all, but I think an SPC, if possible, would be the most
> portable of solutions.

Yep.  I?m going the external route for the prototype for ease of development
and debugging.  I?d like to be able to do it in an SPC form factor.

> 
> If this was an external device, would it just have a pair of 60-pin cables
> to your replica BC11A?  Would it then have an onboard terminator or
> option to install a terminator?  I get that you won't be selling the MEM11
> as a bare board, but it doesn't seem that the intended audience would
> be put out by soldering their own 60-pin connectors and/or a bunch of
> terminating resistors if it needed to be at the end of a chain or in the
> middle.

Yes, I?ll probably put in two sets of connectors (in & out) so that it could be
in a chain or the option to install terminators.

Anything optional will be in sockets.  I?ll be putting the UNIBUS transceivers
in sockets because I can?t afford the overage that I?d need to provide to the
board house for assembly.

TTFN - Guy


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 15:18:58 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:18:58 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ02JUrneUqoACn5fqepxT03JBVTn8GBRSdxGS-g=uwz+Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160208204303.55ACE18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <16241E05-0906-4A45-BD95-3AB56D104E0F@shiresoft.com>
 <CAKtEJ02JUrneUqoACn5fqepxT03JBVTn8GBRSdxGS-g=uwz+Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAC4F47-814D-44E9-8B7B-A2687289592C@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> See above re: gold edge fingers.  I was originally thinking that if I do
>> have to
>> split the board up, that I?d make them completely independent.  But that
>> has
>> the issue of requiring 2x the number of UNIBUS transceiver parts (which are
>> all but unobtainium as of now).  One of the things that drives up the
>> power (and
>> board area) are said transceivers (and level shifters, etc).  If I could
>> come up
>> with a reasonable alternative for the SPC version, that may work.  But
>> that?s
>> all in the future at the moment.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>> 
> A thought: would a second quad board necessarily need transceivers?  I'm
> thinking of the top-block connectors used in the PDP-8, and the top-plugged
> ribbon cables for e.g., MicroVAX II CPU-to-memory connection.  You might
> still want to grab power through a few fingers, but that's an
> implementation detail.  ? Ian
> 

I?m not a particular fan of that because some of the signals I?m running are
pretty fast between the FPGA and some of the other components (~40ns
cycle time for the FRAMs for example).  I wouldn?t want to run those signals
very far and certainly not across any sort of cabling.

It?s not clear to me (yet) how I could partition the design across 2 SPC boards.

TTFN - Guy



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:23:03 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:23:03 -0500
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 1:33 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > I heard that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX (an 11/750,
>> > somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of 16K RAM
>> > chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather than to buy 1MByte
>> > boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did....
>
>> machine?  I doubt DEC would be real happy with that.  Also,
>> the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards
>> laid out with that signal already in place?
>
> Yes. IIRC there were some jumpers to re-set, but the boards were the same.

Yep.  The boards were used in the 11/70, the 11/730, and the 11/750.
I don't know if
you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
to the tri-voltage
4116s, but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them just
isn't that much RAM.

In the case of the 11/750, one of mine, BT000354 (early S/N) shipped from DEC
with 512KB as two M8728 (256K) boards that I later upgraded to 8MB by removing
the old memory boards and memory controller board, adding eight M8750 boards (it
was not worth clipping and upgrading the actual boards at the time - 1MB boards
were under $300 each by then), and L0016 memory controller board (8MB max)
and adding the additional multiplexed address line to the memory slots.  We ran
it that way for many years.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:29:15 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:29:15 -0500
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <64A3D894-B04A-475F-A9DE-EBB2672FB0CA@shiresoft.com>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org> <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimmdjtg30YgvgMGV1HhZaOAUAMerfOr4rEwfS23tkftpAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <64A3D894-B04A-475F-A9DE-EBB2672FB0CA@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=v1QGuUuk8Hbp1+Qy=LSv-4G3HdH-eZTfOgj1c37_vng@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> Anything optional will be in sockets.  I?ll be putting the UNIBUS transceivers
> in sockets because I can?t afford the overage that I?d need to provide to the
> board house for assembly.

I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software Results
20 years ago.  To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the
time, it was
a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I got a good spread
on the price).

I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads.

-ethan

From pdaguytom at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 15:40:52 2016
From: pdaguytom at gmail.com (pdaguytom .)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 15:40:52 -0600
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <CAG3XYe2rv6Ptdt6kEAo_JttHL19qwP=ZtSbNCssfTH=49Maz=A@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure that the Sun Blade 100 uses IDE, one of the cheap IDE to CF
cards from ebay would likely work there. I've usually bought these in bulk
and have been less than picky (other than price?) about these and have not
had any issues.
The SCSI to CF have always been a bit spendy for my taste, it was always
easier to find the next cheap used SCSI drive.

Tom

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Bryan Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com>
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I have the following gear in my stable:
>
> - Sun Blade 100
> - SGI O2
> - VAXstation 3100
> - AlphaStation 500
> - HP C3700
>
> I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these
> boxes for noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks
> recommend a solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but
> I didn't know if there was one kind over another that people have been
> successful with or if there is a totally different approach I should
> be considering.
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 15:45:30 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:45:30 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=v1QGuUuk8Hbp1+Qy=LSv-4G3HdH-eZTfOgj1c37_vng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01602052-2F12-4EB7-B7C1-962CF93A4966@shiresoft.com>
 <56B8F254.300@bitsavers.org> <56B8FACB.6080409@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimmdjtg30YgvgMGV1HhZaOAUAMerfOr4rEwfS23tkftpAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <64A3D894-B04A-475F-A9DE-EBB2672FB0CA@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmim=v1QGuUuk8Hbp1+Qy=LSv-4G3HdH-eZTfOgj1c37_vng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <456F4B0F-4859-47A0-9A1A-2E3B00207B91@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:29 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> Anything optional will be in sockets.  I?ll be putting the UNIBUS transceivers
>> in sockets because I can?t afford the overage that I?d need to provide to the
>> board house for assembly.
> 
> I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software Results
> 20 years ago.  To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the
> time, it was
> a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I got a good spread
> on the price).
> 
> I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads.

Yea, I have enough of the various parts for ~25 boards.  I *think* I may have
more in the ?basement? of my shop but I won?t know until I start to unpack it.

I?ll eventually have to come up with some sort of alternative (not pin compatible)
but that?s OK since one of the things that sucks up the board space is the 5v to
3.3v level translation (and going to/from tri-state, etc, etc).

TTFN - Guy


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  8 16:04:51 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 2016 17:04:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MEM11 update
Message-ID: <20160208220451.302FB18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Guy Sotomayor

    > The reality is that an SPC board will be more expensive because of the
    > gold edge fingers.

Oh, right, forgot about that. Yeah, six of one...

    > I was originally thinking that if I do have to split the board up, that
    > I'd make them completely independent. But that has the issue of
    > requiring 2x the number of UNIBUS transceiver parts (which are all but
    > unobtainium as of now).

Actually, 8641's (at least) are still around for not much. See below.

    > some of the signals I'm running are pretty fast between the FPGA and
    > some of the other components ... I wouldn't want to run those signals
    > very far and certainly not across any sort of cabling.

For sure. We've been having issues (although we think we have it licked now)
with signals running across a flat cable between the prototype QSIC's
mother-card (a QBUS wire-wrap card) and its daughter-card (an bought-in FPGA
devel card), and that's for much slower signals (the only thing on the
mother-card are QBUS transceivers and level converters). Of course, the fact
that the interface doesn't put a ground wire between each pair signals wires
doesn't help! :-)


    > From: Ethan Dicks

    > I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software
    > Results 20 years ago. To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the
    > time, it was a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I
    > got a good spread on the price).
    > I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads.

NS8641's are still available. I got a bunch from a guy in Hong Kong for
US$1.50 each - considering the source, I built a test card to make sure they
met specs, and they do, so I'm pretty sure they aren't counterfeits. :-)

When I was worried he couldn't find enough, I checked with a supplier (4 Star
Electronics, I think) and they had like 50K available, and quoted me a price
in about the same region, so I don't think UNIBUS transceivers actually are a
problem, at least, not at the moment.

	Noel

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 16:07:54 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:07:54 -0000
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <006401d162bd$290d1800$7b274800$@gmail.com>

These seem popular:-

http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD

new version

http://www.ebay.com/sch/inertialcomputing/m.html


I have one, but I haven't used it yet.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
> Everly
> Sent: 08 February 2016 15:35
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Solid state recommendations
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I have the following gear in my stable:
> 
> - Sun Blade 100
> - SGI O2
> - VAXstation 3100
> - AlphaStation 500
> - HP C3700
> 
> I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these boxes for
> noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks recommend a
> solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but I didn't know if
> there was one kind over another that people have been successful with or if
> there is a totally different approach I should be considering.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb  8 16:10:34 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 14:10:34 -0800
Subject: MEM11 update
In-Reply-To: <20160208220451.302FB18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160208220451.302FB18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <81B973BE-A499-459B-B88E-C2E8B6C1E12F@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Ethan Dicks
> 
>> I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software
>> Results 20 years ago. To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the
>> time, it was a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I
>> got a good spread on the price).
>> I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads.
> 
> NS8641's are still available. I got a bunch from a guy in Hong Kong for
> US$1.50 each - considering the source, I built a test card to make sure they
> met specs, and they do, so I'm pretty sure they aren't counterfeits. :-)
> 
> When I was worried he couldn't find enough, I checked with a supplier (4 Star
> Electronics, I think) and they had like 50K available, and quoted me a price
> in about the same region, so I don't think UNIBUS transceivers actually are a
> problem, at least, not at the moment.

That?s good to know although I use a number of different UNIBUS interface
parts depending upon the signal (input only, output only or bi-directional).
But NS8641?s are the most numerous.

TTFN - Guy


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Feb  8 16:13:33 2016
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:13:33 +0000
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would love an image of that!

On 5 Feb 2016 18:59, "Todd Goodman" <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like it if still available.
>
> I'll certainly reimburse you for postage (and a beverage or two of your
> choice as well.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Todd
>
> * E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> [160205 13:02]:
> >
> > While getting though some stuff, I did find a 800Bpi 9 track tape
> > with Oregon Pascal V2.0 for RSX.
> >
> > Anybody interested in it? Free to get, only postage fee would be nice.
> >
> > Ed
> > --
> > Ik email, dus ik besta.
> > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
> >

From leec2124 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 16:43:04 2016
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 14:43:04 -0800
Subject: Free TK50 Tapes for Postage and Handling
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVHYBbkP=Nw_chTDQsB=T6Rw8WEK0P-zoDSN0sNd7r92YQ@mail.gmail.com>

Five untested TK50 tapes available for postage and from 94025. Two have no
labels, the remainder have the following:
VMS 5.1-1 Maintenance Update
OD/OT Drivers for VMS 4.x 20-MAR-89
CZTK1D0 MICRO-11 CUST TK50

Please reply off-list if you'd like.
-- 
Lee Courtney

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Feb  8 17:41:04 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:41:04 -0700
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>

7006 might also fit the bill.  I've got a few of the different models but
not really looking to sell any.  eBay looks like slim pickings as well.
One seller has a bunch of 7009s, you might try to talk him down to a
realistic price.

If you need help comp.unix.aix on Usenet is probably a better bet.  I've
cataloged a lot of info at http://ps-2.kev009.com/

Regards,

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Benjamin Huntsman <
BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:

> Hi Paul!
>    Thanks for the correction.  I don't know why I thought some of those
> had a PCI slot or two.  So nevermind the PCI part.  But I could still use a
> box that'll run 3.2.5 up through at least 4.1.5...
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Ben
>
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Berger [
> phb.hfx at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 9:20 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: AIX 4.1-capable box
>
> On 2016-02-08 1:05 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> > Hi there!
> >     Does anyone on here do much with RS/6000 boxes?  I'm looking for a
> 7009-C10, 7011-250, or (mostly) PCI-based 7012 system capable of running
> AIX 4.1.
> >     By any chance, anyone have such a system that they'd be willing to
> sell?
> >
> >     Thanks much!!
> >
> > -Ben
> All of the systems you listed are microchannel machines.  The first PCI
> machines where 7020, 7043, and 7025-F40.  The 7020 run AIX 4.1.1 and the
> 7043-140, 240 and 7025-F40 require min 4.1.5  7043-150 requires 4.2.1.
>
> Paul.
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 17:55:44 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 18:55:44 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCpgY5Bzjigd6SMO7t2JEaNvNJxd3rxXSL0WVXn+Oor-w@mail.gmail.com>

This is extremely good info (thank you to Robert, Joseph and Noel!) and I
plan to do something like this someday when I get more q-bus stuff, but I
must apoligise for my inaccuracy because what I was originally trying to
ask was:

Can I tear apart my little BA23 (which currently has a power supply problem
and not enough space for my high capacity 8" SMD disks) and put the
Micro/PDP-11 backplane (with all its nice 11/73 cards and SMD disk
controllers, etc.) into the spot that my 11/03 backplane currently occupies
and run it via the (working) stock 11/03 power supply?  This "11/03
chassis" is bolted into what appears to be a common, official Digital 19"
rack surrounded by some RL02s, mid-height style (don't know the name of
this racking option).

  Specifically, would I have to butcher power and clock lines to do this,
or is it all plug compatible?  I'm considering tearing the systems down and
assessing the situation, but wanted to ask in advance in case somebody's
already gone there and can save me the heartache.  The recent mention of
the dual 11/73 in a 19" rack prompted me to reconsider my original intent
instead of rewiring old backplanes to be 22-bit compliant.

thx
jake


On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Jacob Ritorto
>
>     > Would you happen to have notes or references about how to do it?
>
> It's not too hard; basically, one has to wire pins BC1, BD1, BE1 and BF1
> (BDAL 18-BDAL21, respectively) on all _QBUS_ slots together into a bus. So
> wire BC1 on slot 1 to BC1 on slot 2, slot 3, etc, etc.
>
> A couple of notes: First, I said '_QBUS_' because if you have a Q/CD
> backplane, clearly one doesn't run the extra BDAL lines to the CD slots,
> only
> the QBUS slots (which run down the left-hand side, when facing the
> backplane).
>
> Second, for optimal analog behaviour, the 'out' slot on the backplane
> should
> be the last slot you wire to, so that there are no branches in the
> transmission line for BDAL18-BDAL21 (which can produce reflections - aka
> noise - on the transmission lines). How to do this efficiently (in terms of
> the wiring) can be a bit tricky, depending on the backplane configuration.
>
> E.g. if one has the standard 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. one with the
> slots
> in the following kind of order (facing the backplane from the board side):
>
> 1-2
> 4-3
> 5-6
> 8-7
> 9-10
>
> etc., one might naively think one has to run the extra bus lines back and
> forth to match. However, only the _grant_ lines have to follow this pattern
> (and they are already there); the added lines don't have to follow the same
> pattern, as long as there are no branches.
>
> So, for the example 5-slot backplane above, one could/would wire:
>
> 1-4-5-8-9--2-3-6-7-10
>
> i.e. a single vertical run on the left hand side, a single diagonal from 9
> back to 2 (shown with "--"), and then another vertical run on the right
> hand
> side. Much simpler than wiring back and forth in slot order; there are no
> branches; and the last slot is the 'out' slot.
>
> For backplane with an _even_ number of layers, e.g.:
>
> 1-2
> 4-3
> 5-6
> 8-7
>
> it's a little more complicated: a single vertical run on each side
> cannot be connected in such a way as to have the 'out' slot (8) be the
> last slot. One has to do something a little more complex:
>
> 1-4-5--2-3-6-7--8
>
> with a vertical run on the left side, stopping short of the last slot; then
> a vertical run on the right side, then a lateral back across on the last
> layer.
>
> Obviously one _could_ run the wires back and forth, in slot order, but that
> will take a lot more wire, which at the very least is more work (especially
> on backplanes which don't have full wire-wrap pins, just the little stubby
> pins that have to have the wires soldered to); whether it also increases
> the
> delay down those transmission lines enough to be noticeable is something I
> don't know the answer to.
>
>
> All the obvious caveats apply: make sure not to get confused by the mirror
> pin and slot numbers on the front and back sides (you'll be wiring on the
> back, whereas the diagrams above are on the front), etc.
>
>         Noel
>

From jsw at ieee.org  Mon Feb  8 17:59:04 2016
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:59:04 -0600
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <006401d162bd$290d1800$7b274800$@gmail.com>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
 <006401d162bd$290d1800$7b274800$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A4C680A-D700-4287-87E2-297373E62E5F@ieee.org>

On Feb 8, 2016, at 4:07 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> These seem popular:-
> 
> http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD
> 
> new version
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/inertialcomputing/m.html
> 
> 
> I have one, but I haven't used it yet.
> 
> Dave
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
>> Everly
>> Sent: 08 February 2016 15:35
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Solid state recommendations
>> 
>> Hi all
>> 
>> I have the following gear in my stable:
>> 
>> - Sun Blade 100
>> - SGI O2
>> - VAXstation 3100
>> - AlphaStation 500
>> - HP C3700
>> 
>> I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these boxes for
>> noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks recommend a
>> solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but I didn't know if
>> there was one kind over another that people have been successful with or if
>> there is a totally different approach I should be considering.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan
> 

I?ve been using SCSI2SD over a year with Emulex UC07, native MV 3100, Nextstep/Openstep and Adaptec PC SCSI adapters.
Michael has been constantly improving the device and firmware.  He worked out some bugs that allowed me to use these under VMS 5.5-2; which was very picky about the scsimode settings on disks of that era. Well worth the investment, especially if you are constantly tinkering with your machines. Its async and doesn?t take advantage of
high speed microSD cards, but they outperform the real Seagate SCSI-2 Narrow 1-8GB drives I?ve compared them to.

Jerry WB9MRI


From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  8 18:27:01 2016
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 00:27:01 +0000
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BY2PR12MB0292A241686AC1B1181D238CBAD60@BY2PR12MB0292.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

jameco has them fro $6

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 12:25 PM
To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: 6502 CPUs

2nd go, apologies if another version of this arrives but I sent it from a
non-list address so it might not get through with the emergency moderation
going on.

Hi folks,

Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
valuable?

I know Mouser have got the 're-released' WDC 65C02 which I may end up going
for since for 10 they're as low as ukp4.37, but don't us collectors have
bundles of spares?

Funny when I think of the number of BBC Micros that have been tossed over
the years....

--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From mike at fenz.net  Mon Feb  8 19:32:50 2016
From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 14:32:50 +1300
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <56B941C2.8090100@fenz.net>

On 9/02/2016 9:25 a.m., Adrian Graham wrote:
> Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
> lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
> replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
> valuable?
eBay does have some pretty cheap options...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-R6502AP-R6502-DIP-40-/170828631732?hash=item27c62e0eb4:g:KOUAAOxyzfNRtoK4

Bearing in mind that although this looks authentic, it may be a re-mark, 
and it will still probably be a working 6502.



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Feb  8 19:45:04 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 20:45:04 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfCpgY5Bzjigd6SMO7t2JEaNvNJxd3rxXSL0WVXn+Oor-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCpgY5Bzjigd6SMO7t2JEaNvNJxd3rxXSL0WVXn+Oor-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B944A0.20308@compsys.to>

I top post only once or twice a year.  This is the exception since my reply
does not explicitly address the question.

An internal built-in power supply is just the ordinary standard power
supply which provides power to the board on which the CPU is
located.

I have managed to avoid many of the problems associated with power
supplies by using the built-in power supply only for the BA23 boards,
tape drives and, if any, floppy drives.

Note that when I use a TK70 tape drive in a BA23 box, it functions
correctly ONLY when connected to the built-in power supply.

Specifically, I always use a SEPARATE PC power supply for the hard
disk drives.  This is probably essential when I use THREE Hitachi ESDI
hard disk drives since their power requirements, when added to the
rest of the load, really challenge the BA23 box built-in power supply.
But I believe it is probably best even when just an RD51 is used
although the load from a single RD51 is probably OK to run using the
built-in power supply of the BA23.

In addition, the Hitachi ESDI hard drives also require an external fan
to keep them at a reasonable temperature.  The fans are also powered
by the separate PC power supply.

This procedure also works well with other systems, so I recommend
it to reduce the load and keep internal built-in power supplies from
being overloaded on any system, especially when there is more than
one hard drive.

Jerome Fine

 >Jacob Ritorto wrote:

>This is extremely good info (thank you to Robert, Joseph and Noel!) and I
>plan to do something like this someday when I get more q-bus stuff, but I
>must apoligise for my inaccuracy because what I was originally trying to
>ask was:
>
>Can I tear apart my little BA23 (which currently has a power supply problem
>and not enough space for my high capacity 8" SMD disks) and put the
>Micro/PDP-11 backplane (with all its nice 11/73 cards and SMD disk
>controllers, etc.) into the spot that my 11/03 backplane currently occupies
>and run it via the (working) stock 11/03 power supply?  This "11/03
>chassis" is bolted into what appears to be a common, official Digital 19"
>rack surrounded by some RL02s, mid-height style (don't know the name of
>this racking option).
>
>  Specifically, would I have to butcher power and clock lines to do this,
>or is it all plug compatible?  I'm considering tearing the systems down and
>assessing the situation, but wanted to ask in advance in case somebody's
>already gone there and can save me the heartache.  The recent mention of
>the dual 11/73 in a 19" rack prompted me to reconsider my original intent
>instead of rewiring old backplanes to be 22-bit compliant.
>
>thx
>jake
>
>
>>On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>    > From: Jacob Ritorto
>>
>>    > Would you happen to have notes or references about how to do it?
>>
>>It's not too hard; basically, one has to wire pins BC1, BD1, BE1 and BF1
>>(BDAL 18-BDAL21, respectively) on all _QBUS_ slots together into a bus. So
>>wire BC1 on slot 1 to BC1 on slot 2, slot 3, etc, etc.
>>
>>A couple of notes: First, I said '_QBUS_' because if you have a Q/CD
>>backplane, clearly one doesn't run the extra BDAL lines to the CD slots,
>>only
>>the QBUS slots (which run down the left-hand side, when facing the
>>backplane).
>>
>>Second, for optimal analog behaviour, the 'out' slot on the backplane
>>should
>>be the last slot you wire to, so that there are no branches in the
>>transmission line for BDAL18-BDAL21 (which can produce reflections - aka
>>noise - on the transmission lines). How to do this efficiently (in terms of
>>the wiring) can be a bit tricky, depending on the backplane configuration.
>>
>>E.g. if one has the standard 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. one with the
>>slots
>>in the following kind of order (facing the backplane from the board side):
>>
>>1-2
>>4-3
>>5-6
>>8-7
>>9-10
>>
>>etc., one might naively think one has to run the extra bus lines back and
>>forth to match. However, only the _grant_ lines have to follow this pattern
>>(and they are already there); the added lines don't have to follow the same
>>pattern, as long as there are no branches.
>>
>>So, for the example 5-slot backplane above, one could/would wire:
>>
>>1-4-5-8-9--2-3-6-7-10
>>
>>i.e. a single vertical run on the left hand side, a single diagonal from 9
>>back to 2 (shown with "--"), and then another vertical run on the right
>>hand
>>side. Much simpler than wiring back and forth in slot order; there are no
>>branches; and the last slot is the 'out' slot.
>>
>>For backplane with an _even_ number of layers, e.g.:
>>
>>1-2
>>4-3
>>5-6
>>8-7
>>
>>it's a little more complicated: a single vertical run on each side
>>cannot be connected in such a way as to have the 'out' slot (8) be the
>>last slot. One has to do something a little more complex:
>>
>>1-4-5--2-3-6-7--8
>>
>>with a vertical run on the left side, stopping short of the last slot; then
>>a vertical run on the right side, then a lateral back across on the last
>>layer.
>>
>>Obviously one _could_ run the wires back and forth, in slot order, but that
>>will take a lot more wire, which at the very least is more work (especially
>>on backplanes which don't have full wire-wrap pins, just the little stubby
>>pins that have to have the wires soldered to); whether it also increases
>>the
>>delay down those transmission lines enough to be noticeable is something I
>>don't know the answer to.
>>
>>
>>All the obvious caveats apply: make sure not to get confused by the mirror
>>pin and slot numbers on the front and back sides (you'll be wiring on the
>>back, whereas the diagrams above are on the front), etc.
>>
>>        Noel
>>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb  8 20:48:28 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 20:48:28 -0600
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56B9537C.1060302@pico-systems.com>

On 02/08/2016 03:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> I don't know if you could use the 256K boards (populated 
> with 4116s) in the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s, 
> but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them 
> just isn't that much RAM.
We ran our first 11/780 with 2 memory boards.  I THINK we 
had a total of 256 KB, and one Friday afternoon one of them 
died and we had to run over the weekend with only one board, 
so that would have been 128 KB.  Yes, it was a bit tight on 
memory, but we got a LOT done on that machine.

Jon

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Feb  8 21:14:33 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 03:14:33 +0000
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>,
 <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ABA1E57-8D00-4E3A-BDFB-BB90532F466A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>

I was eyeballing that 7009 that still has the door.  What do you think it's actually worth?  I was thinking something like $200 would be generous, but then again I might be equally off-base...

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 3:41 PM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> 
> 7006 might also fit the bill.  I've got a few of the different models but
> not really looking to sell any.  eBay looks like slim pickings as well.
> One seller has a bunch of 7009s, you might try to talk him down to a
> realistic price.
> 
> If you need help comp.unix.aix on Usenet is probably a better bet.  I've
> cataloged a lot of info at http://ps-2.kev009.com/
> 
> Regards,
> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Benjamin Huntsman <
> BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Paul!
>>   Thanks for the correction.  I don't know why I thought some of those
>> had a PCI slot or two.  So nevermind the PCI part.  But I could still use a
>> box that'll run 3.2.5 up through at least 4.1.5...
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> -Ben
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Berger [
>> phb.hfx at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 9:20 AM
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: AIX 4.1-capable box
>> 
>>> On 2016-02-08 1:05 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
>>> Hi there!
>>>    Does anyone on here do much with RS/6000 boxes?  I'm looking for a
>> 7009-C10, 7011-250, or (mostly) PCI-based 7012 system capable of running
>> AIX 4.1.
>>>    By any chance, anyone have such a system that they'd be willing to
>> sell?
>>> 
>>>    Thanks much!!
>>> 
>>> -Ben
>> All of the systems you listed are microchannel machines.  The first PCI
>> machines where 7020, 7043, and 7025-F40.  The 7020 run AIX 4.1.1 and the
>> 7043-140, 240 and 7025-F40 require min 4.1.5  7043-150 requires 4.2.1.
>> 
>> Paul.
>> 

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 21:21:05 2016
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 23:21:05 -0400
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <5ABA1E57-8D00-4E3A-BDFB-BB90532F466A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5ABA1E57-8D00-4E3A-BDFB-BB90532F466A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
Message-ID: <56B95B21.2020201@gmail.com>

On 2016-02-08 11:14 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> I was eyeballing that 7009 that still has the door.  What do you think it's actually worth?  I was thinking something like $200 would be generous, but then again I might be equally off-base...
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
I should probably warn you that the 7009 was not the best microchannel 
system made.  The 10/100 ethernet card for one does not work well in 
it.  L2 cache options have been known to fail, and if you do get one you 
will probably want to renew the heat sink compound on the CPU it is 
known to dry out.

Paul.

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Feb  8 21:45:20 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 03:45:20 +0000
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <56B95B21.2020201@gmail.com>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5ABA1E57-8D00-4E3A-BDFB-BB90532F466A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>,
 <56B95B21.2020201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <505ADC0B-1E6F-4A76-89ED-28627FD3802A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>

So more like $100?  :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 7:21 PM, Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2016-02-08 11:14 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
>> I was eyeballing that 7009 that still has the door.  What do you think it's actually worth?  I was thinking something like $200 would be generous, but then again I might be equally off-base...
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> I should probably warn you that the 7009 was not the best microchannel system made.  The 10/100 ethernet card for one does not work well in it.  L2 cache options have been known to fail, and if you do get one you will probably want to renew the heat sink compound on the CPU it is known to dry out.
> 
> Paul.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 21:57:16 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 22:57:16 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
Message-ID: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> On 02/08/2016 03:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in
>> the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s, but even if they worked, you
>> wouldn't want to - 5 of them just isn't that much RAM.
>
> We ran our first 11/780 with 2 memory boards.  I THINK we had a total of 256
> KB, and one Friday afternoon one of them died and we had to run over the
> weekend with only one board, so that would have been 128 KB.  Yes, it was a
> bit tight on memory, but we got a LOT done on that machine.

As I mentioned our first 11/750 was delivered with 512KB (we upgraded
it pretty quickly to 8 boards for 2MB, where it ran for years).  The
11/750 first shipped with IIRC VMS 2.0.  My first encounters with VMS
was around mid-1984 and VMS 3.4.  We had 8MB of memory in our second
11/750 but it was supporting 50+ users.

That 11/750 went off-lease, we sent it back.  That's why I had to
upgrade the other one, so we'd still have an 8MB VAX in-house.  It ran
VMS 4.7 at the end of its days 23 years ago (we had quite a bit of
software that wasn't available for/wasn't licensed for/wasn't under
paid-maintenance for 5.x).  I haven't powered it up since we left that
building (I do occasionally power up the 8300 that we got for product
development).

So I'm fairly confident that 512MB is enough for VMS 2.0 but I _think_
by 3.0, you had to have a megabyte or two.  1.25MB would be the most
you could stuff in a 11/730 if you could use the boards populated with
16Kbit DRAMs.  I don't think VMS 2.x runs on an 11/730 (but I could be
wrong there).  We ran Ultrix 1.1 and VMS 5.0 on one of ours (with
5MB).  VMS 5.0 barely fit - we mostly used that to link our product
binaries under 5.x for distribution to our customers.

I do know someone in Ohio who ran VMS 5.0 on a VAX-11/725, but they
did it by cutting a slot in the skin and running a BC11 cable out to a
BA11 box next to the 11/725 and stuffing a UDA50 in the BA11.  With an
external disk, there's no practical difference between an 11/725 and
an 11/730... same CPU, same backplane, same memory... just a packaging
difference.

-ethan

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb  8 22:03:17 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 20:03:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <BY2PR12MB0292A241686AC1B1181D238CBAD60@BY2PR12MB0292.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
References: <D2DEAA36.51E68%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <BY2PR12MB0292A241686AC1B1181D238CBAD60@BY2PR12MB0292.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602082002480.15614@shell.lmi.net>

In a thousand years, it is revealed that Bender has a 6502!




From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 22:11:10 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 23:11:10 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> > On 02/08/2016 03:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know if you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in
> >> the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s, but even if they worked, you
> >> wouldn't want to - 5 of them just isn't that much RAM.
> >
> > We ran our first 11/780 with 2 memory boards.  I THINK we had a total of
> 256
> > KB, and one Friday afternoon one of them died and we had to run over the
> > weekend with only one board, so that would have been 128 KB.  Yes, it
> was a
> > bit tight on memory, but we got a LOT done on that machine.
>
> As I mentioned our first 11/750 was delivered with 512KB (we upgraded
> it pretty quickly to 8 boards for 2MB, where it ran for years).  The
> 11/750 first shipped with IIRC VMS 2.0.  My first encounters with VMS
> was around mid-1984 and VMS 3.4.  We had 8MB of memory in our second
> 11/750 but it was supporting 50+ users.
>
> That 11/750 went off-lease, we sent it back.  That's why I had to
> upgrade the other one, so we'd still have an 8MB VAX in-house.  It ran
> VMS 4.7 at the end of its days 23 years ago (we had quite a bit of
> software that wasn't available for/wasn't licensed for/wasn't under
> paid-maintenance for 5.x).  I haven't powered it up since we left that
> building (I do occasionally power up the 8300 that we got for product
> development).
>
> So I'm fairly confident that 512MB is enough for VMS 2.0 but I _think_
> by 3.0, you had to have a megabyte or two.  1.25MB would be the most
> you could stuff in a 11/730 if you could use the boards populated with
> 16Kbit DRAMs.  I don't think VMS 2.x runs on an 11/730 (but I could be
> wrong there).  We ran Ultrix 1.1 and VMS 5.0 on one of ours (with
> 5MB).  VMS 5.0 barely fit - we mostly used that to link our product
> binaries under 5.x for distribution to our customers.
>
> I do know someone in Ohio who ran VMS 5.0 on a VAX-11/725, but they
> did it by cutting a slot in the skin and running a BC11 cable out to a
> BA11 box next to the 11/725 and stuffing a UDA50 in the BA11.  With an
> external disk, there's no practical difference between an 11/725 and
> an 11/730... same CPU, same backplane, same memory... just a packaging
> difference.
>
> -ethan
>


I ran my VAX 4000-200 all day today.  I have never worked with an older
VAX.  I run VMS 6.2    Today I booted off the backup drive to keep it
fresh, DIA5.  I am running MULTINET.

3 M7622 16MB RAM boards installed.  :-)

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 22:46:53 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 20:46:53 -0800
Subject: PRM-85 board case?
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLaND_-=ftNcRuPiLBpt_89YraQSDWHfOf7qcbncB0wNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000001d1612e$2aa60bd0$7ff22370$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM2UOwLaND_-=ftNcRuPiLBpt_89YraQSDWHfOf7qcbncB0wNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6548B9A8-57A6-4FBA-B4AE-547EF603FD7E@gmail.com>

Interested too.
Marc


> On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:43 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Rumor has it that one or more people have designed and 3d-printed cases for
>> their HP-85 PRM-85 boards. Anyone have any of those cases available? I'd
>> like to get my PRM-85 a proper case :)
> 
> I would like to hear about that too. I also have a bare PRM-85 board.
> It would be nice to have a proper case for it without gutting another
> plug in I/O module for it's case.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 22:50:25 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 23:50:25 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:11 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> I ran my VAX 4000-200 all day today.

Nice.

> I have never worked with an older

I happened to get a lot of opportunity in the 80s to work with VAXen,
then Alphas in the 90s and a little beyond (I haven't been paid to run
VMS since about 2003).

> VAX.  I run VMS 6.2    Today I booted off the backup drive to keep it
> fresh, DIA5.  I am running MULTINET.

Nice.  We never had Ethernet back in the day - everything was async
lines (and Kermit and BLAST) and sync lines (HASP, 3780 and SNA via
our own products, plus DDCMP on DEC sync serial interfaces and a
point-to-point DECnet network)

> 3 M7622 16MB RAM boards installed.  :-)

I never had more than 8MB on a big VAX or 9MB on a MicroVAX.  I had to
go to Alphas to get that much RAM (and then, boy, did you need it!)
With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB was a little pinched at
times, but mostly OK.  It kinda hurt first thing in the morning when
everyone was in VMS MAIL and soaking up a bunch of RAM, but unless we
had half our users in MAIL, a quarter of our users in business apps
like Access 20/20 (spreadsheets) or MASS-11 (word processor) _and_
someone kicking off a build with Whitesmith's C, we didn't swap much.
All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years
before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT.

-ethan

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 23:15:03 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 05:15:03 +0000
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.29.1454994910.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

I don't know if there are already images of this, but I would suggest taking an image *before* sending it anywhere.

Regards

Rob

Sent from Outlook Mail for Windows 10 phone



From: John Many Jars
Sent: 08 February 2016 22:13
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Oregon Pascal tape found


I would love an image of that!

On 5 Feb 2016 18:59, "Todd Goodman" <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like it if still available.
>
> I'll certainly reimburse you for postage (and a beverage or two of your
> choice as well.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Todd
>
> * E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> [160205 13:02]:
> >
> > While getting though some stuff, I did find a 800Bpi 9 track tape
> > with Oregon Pascal V2.0 for RSX.
> >
> > Anybody interested in it? Free to get, only postage fee would be nice.
> >
> > Ed
> > --
> > Ik email, dus ik besta.
> > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
> >



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb  8 23:19:55 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 05:19:55 +0000
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <mailman.30.1454995199.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

For the VAX and Alpha you could just set up a cluster using SIMH and run them diskless

Sent from Outlook Mail for Windows 10 phone



From: Bryan Everly
Sent: 08 February 2016 21:12
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Solid state recommendations


Hi all

I have the following gear in my stable:

- Sun Blade 100
- SGI O2
- VAXstation 3100
- AlphaStation 500
- HP C3700

I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these
boxes for noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks
recommend a solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but
I didn't know if there was one kind over another that people have been
successful with or if there is a totally different approach I should
be considering.

Thanks,
Bryan



From bryan at bceassociates.com  Mon Feb  8 15:50:03 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:50:03 -0500
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAG3XYe2rv6Ptdt6kEAo_JttHL19qwP=ZtSbNCssfTH=49Maz=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
 <CAG3XYe2rv6Ptdt6kEAo_JttHL19qwP=ZtSbNCssfTH=49Maz=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34398240512283748@unknownmsgid>

Thanks Tom!

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 4:40 PM, pdaguytom . <pdaguytom at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm pretty sure that the Sun Blade 100 uses IDE, one of the cheap IDE to CF
> cards from ebay would likely work there. I've usually bought these in bulk
> and have been less than picky (other than price?) about these and have not
> had any issues.
> The SCSI to CF have always been a bit spendy for my taste, it was always
> easier to find the next cheap used SCSI drive.
>
> Tom
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Bryan Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I have the following gear in my stable:
>>
>> - Sun Blade 100
>> - SGI O2
>> - VAXstation 3100
>> - AlphaStation 500
>> - HP C3700
>>
>> I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these
>> boxes for noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks
>> recommend a solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but
>> I didn't know if there was one kind over another that people have been
>> successful with or if there is a totally different approach I should
>> be considering.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan
>>

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Mon Feb  8 16:13:29 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 17:13:29 -0500
Subject: Solid state recommendations
In-Reply-To: <006401d162bd$290d1800$7b274800$@gmail.com>
References: <6353001931038158676@unknownmsgid>
 <006401d162bd$290d1800$7b274800$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7901098066991836236@unknownmsgid>

Thanks Dave. These look promising.

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 8, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These seem popular:-
>
> http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD
>
> new version
>
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/inertialcomputing/m.html
>
>
> I have one, but I haven't used it yet.
>
> Dave
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
>> Everly
>> Sent: 08 February 2016 15:35
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Solid state recommendations
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I have the following gear in my stable:
>>
>> - Sun Blade 100
>> - SGI O2
>> - VAXstation 3100
>> - AlphaStation 500
>> - HP C3700
>>
>> I would like to start eliminating spinning SCSI drives from these boxes for
>> noise, heat and capacity reasons. Could you kind folks recommend a
>> solution?  I've seen SCSI to CF converters advertised but I didn't know if
>> there was one kind over another that people have been successful with or if
>> there is a totally different approach I should be considering.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bryan
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb  8 16:32:24 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 14:32:24 -0800
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>

I'll see what I can do to get it converted to a downloadable file. I have a
friend with both a 9 track (556/800/1600) and a 7 track transport.

-pete

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:13 PM, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> wrote:

> I would love an image of that!
>
> On 5 Feb 2016 18:59, "Todd Goodman" <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like it if still available.
> >
> > I'll certainly reimburse you for postage (and a beverage or two of your
> > choice as well.)
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > * E. Groenenberg <ed at groenenberg.net> [160205 13:02]:
> > >
> > > While getting though some stuff, I did find a 800Bpi 9 track tape
> > > with Oregon Pascal V2.0 for RSX.
> > >
> > > Anybody interested in it? Free to get, only postage fee would be nice.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > > --
> > > Ik email, dus ik besta.
> > > BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
> > > LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz
> > >
>
>

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Tue Feb  9 00:42:06 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 23:42:06 -0700
Subject: AIX 4.1-capable box
In-Reply-To: <505ADC0B-1E6F-4A76-89ED-28627FD3802A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73516@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <56B8CE5D.6020703@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE73797@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <CAK7dMtAvEhs-rbss=0VYx+nk6GSVOoDdwhQr63kcYPjoempVpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5ABA1E57-8D00-4E3A-BDFB-BB90532F466A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
 <56B95B21.2020201@gmail.com>
 <505ADC0B-1E6F-4A76-89ED-28627FD3802A@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDjcU4gRDRBLVA5e0N1RdOHxr_o=_t7qnktA2eKXruYuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah I would think $80-$200 would be fair for a typical MCA machine
depending on extras and condition, maybe the more prized ones are worth
more to the right person... you can pry my 7012-397 and 7012-G40 from cold
dead hands :p.  I would sell you a 7011-250 but it's particularly useful to
me for furthering the NetBSD port at some point.

Regards,

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Benjamin Huntsman <
BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:

> So more like $100?  :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 7:21 PM, Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2016-02-08 11:14 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> >> I was eyeballing that 7009 that still has the door.  What do you think
> it's actually worth?  I was thinking something like $200 would be generous,
> but then again I might be equally off-base...
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> > I should probably warn you that the 7009 was not the best microchannel
> system made.  The 10/100 ethernet card for one does not work well in it.
> L2 cache options have been known to fail, and if you do get one you will
> probably want to renew the heat sink compound on the CPU it is known to dry
> out.
> >
> > Paul.
>

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Tue Feb  9 02:40:24 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 08:40:24 +0000
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <56B941C2.8090100@fenz.net>
Message-ID: <D2DF5678.51EAA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

On 09/02/2016 01:32, "Mike van Bokhoven" <mike at fenz.net> wrote:

> On 9/02/2016 9:25 a.m., Adrian Graham wrote:
>> Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
>> lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
>> replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
>> valuable?
> eBay does have some pretty cheap options...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-R6502AP-R6502-DIP-40-/170828631732?hash=item27c62
> e0eb4:g:KOUAAOxyzfNRtoK4
> 
> Bearing in mind that although this looks authentic, it may be a re-mark,
> and it will still probably be a working 6502.

That's interesting, I wonder why those didn't come up in any of my searches
last night. They're all refurbs though other than straightening and
polishing the legs I'm unsure how a chip can be 'refurbished' :)

Found an article from someone saying they'd bought one for a 1541 and it's
fine so definitely worth a punt.

Thanks!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From mike at fenz.net  Tue Feb  9 03:18:06 2016
From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 22:18:06 +1300
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <D2DF5678.51EAA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2DF5678.51EAA%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <56B9AECE.9010908@fenz.net>

On 9/02/2016 9:40 p.m., Adrian Graham wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 01:32, "Mike van Bokhoven" <mike at fenz.net> wrote:
>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-R6502AP-R6502-DIP-40-/170828631732?hash=item27c62
>> e0eb4:g:KOUAAOxyzfNRtoK4
> That's interesting, I wonder why those didn't come up in any of my searches
> last night. They're all refurbs though other than straightening and
> polishing the legs I'm unsure how a chip can be 'refurbished' :)
> Found an article from someone saying they'd bought one for a 1541 and it's
> fine so definitely worth a punt.
> Thanks!
No worries! I do a lot of pinball repair, and buy plenty of Chinese 
re-marked ICs. The only ones I've had real trouble with are 68B09EPs, 
where they think EPs seem to be worth way more than 68B09Ps for some 
reason, so let's put those markings on all of them... (grumble)

Cheers,
Mike


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Tue Feb  9 03:23:59 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 02:23:59 -0700
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third party
3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were particularly
rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the waning years
since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even use.  Any leads on
on for a reasonable price?

Regards,
Kevin

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Feb  9 03:35:23 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:35:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+nCiVzo6H1-LjX=zowx-B5t=DZSxAbAGLrbQfcBiYKHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82S+nCiVzo6H1-LjX=zowx-B5t=DZSxAbAGLrbQfcBiYKHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602091033090.29304@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
> layers of  of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier in this thread I did
> such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I had
> to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.

What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas 
the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.

Christian

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Feb  9 03:39:10 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:39:10 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602091038380.29304@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Ian S. King wrote:
> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.

Actually the faceplate reads 'pdp11' ;-)

Christian

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Feb  9 03:48:52 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:48:52 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602091033090.29304@linuxserv.home>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82S+nCiVzo6H1-LjX=zowx-B5t=DZSxAbAGLrbQfcBiYKHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602091033090.29304@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20160209094852.GA70657@beast.freibergnet.de>

Christian Corti wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
> >layers of  of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier in this thread I did
> >such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I had
> >to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.
> 
> What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas 
> the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.
> 
> Christian

Not all, some of them still use 7Bit:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 04:13:09 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 23:13:09 +1300
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>

The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it
to work. It's the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
something out.

Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the
first time in... at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU
issues; the PSU starts and immediately shuts down - whether or not
there's a load on it. Dunno if it's crowbarring or what. Thing is in
bits on the bench right now. I have no schematics so don't anticipate
a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU IBM bought in - made in China
IIRC.

Mike

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third party
> 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were particularly
> rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the waning years
> since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even use.  Any leads on
> on for a reasonable price?
>
> Regards,
> Kevin



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From mattislind at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 04:22:21 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:22:21 +0100
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <20160209094852.GA70657@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <CABr82S+nCiVzo6H1-LjX=zowx-B5t=DZSxAbAGLrbQfcBiYKHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602091033090.29304@linuxserv.home>
 <20160209094852.GA70657@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLxaF5bKuNMDGxC617qdHpS281XwqiDCMH-30dBtt4Xyg@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-09 10:48 GMT+01:00 Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>:

> Christian Corti wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 8 Feb 2016, Mattis Lind wrote:
> > >layers of  of a multilayer PCB. As mentioned earlier in this thread I
> did
> > >such a conversion on a MSV11-D board more than 25 years ago and then I
> had
> > >to lift up this pin and connect it via an extra wire.
> >
> > What about the DRAM refresh? 4116 have a 7 bit refresh address, whereas
> > the 4164 need 8 bit addresses.
> >
> > Christian
>
> Not all, some of them still use 7Bit:
>
> http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/4164.htm


Yes. The chips used in this case were Fujitsu MB8264-15. They seemed to
work fine as they used 7 bit refresh, but it now is so long ago so I have
forgotten the details.

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>
> --
>       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb  9 06:55:25 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:55:25 +0000
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7403@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Yep.  The boards were used in the 11/70, the 11/730, and the 11/750.
> I don't know if
> you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
> to the tri-voltage
> 4116s, but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them just
> isn't that much RAM.

I am pretty sure (havng read and re-read the printset, I am restroring
an 11/730 at the moment) that you can't use 256K boards in that machine.
The memory address decoder (which IIRC is on the MCT board, part of
the CPU) assumes 1M boards.

Anyway, as you say, you would not want that little memory.

-tony

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue Feb  9 07:07:21 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 14:07:21 +0100
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1455023241.3153.5.camel@agj.net>

tis 2016-02-09 klockan 23:13 +1300 skrev Mike Ross: 
> The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
> importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it
> to work. It's the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> something out.
> 
> Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the
> first time in... at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU
> issues; the PSU starts and immediately shuts down - whether or not
> there's a load on it. Dunno if it's crowbarring or what. Thing is in
> bits on the bench right now. I have no schematics so don't anticipate
> a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU IBM bought in - made in China
> IIRC.
> 

China = Taiwan ?
The other China = People Republic of China

How did US companies in the 3290 time frame labeled imports from
China/Taiwan/PRC ?


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb  9 07:22:07 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 07:22:07 -0600
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501d1633c$df9ed110$9edc7330$@classiccmp.org>

FYI - I have Oregon pascal on 8" floppies, was used on an RT11 system.
Also have the Saturn Word Processor (for RT11) on 8" floppies.

J



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb  9 07:27:58 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 07:27:58 -0600
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d1633d$b1564170$1402c450$@classiccmp.org>

3290's are not super common. They do seem to be more common than 3270/3278/3279's though.

Someone in this thread mentioned the microcode floppies for the 3174. When getting mine running, the software was tied to the hardware so it was free. I just called up IBM and they shipped me a full set - in duplicate (one for master, one set for running). I've no idea if they still provide it though.

J



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 09:18:07 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:18:07 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <56B944A0.20308@compsys.to>
References: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCpgY5Bzjigd6SMO7t2JEaNvNJxd3rxXSL0WVXn+Oor-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B944A0.20308@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBPTX=hF8ibqCkrTSyGqU97sXW+2OMyhqrn8bMcYh9kEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>
wrote:

> [...]

Specifically, I always use a SEPARATE PC power supply for the hard
> disk drives.


Yep, this sounds like exactly where I went wrong.   Two RD32s running
24/7.  Took it only a couple months to burn out.  In the next incarnation
of this machine (i.e. if I ever learn to repair power supplies), I'll set
it up as Jerome describes.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 10:22:51 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:22:51 -0500
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7403@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56B78501.1050303@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602072151010.46465@discord.bogons>
 <CAALmimn-rSqg6Uim2C4muqRCWDiC7-rcT2uyLEOAZK9-nK3G+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E61EE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56B8C91E.5000902@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAALmim=+Hc23VRm72CFjZ+99GtO-bA5XQFM81vQB=GGfTq5tOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E7403@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=KTt5d6CWycyxxaXReCp0iL7bsWAOh3iet+iEKswts2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:55 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I don't know if
>> you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due
>
> I am pretty sure (havng read and re-read the printset, I am restroring
> an 11/730 at the moment) that you can't use 256K boards in that machine.
> The memory address decoder (which IIRC is on the MCT board, part of
> the CPU) assumes 1M boards.

I don't find that surprising.  At the time they were designing the
KA730, 1M boards were obviously available (or imminently available)
and with 5 memory slots vs 8 in the KA750, I'm sure they never
expected anyone to want to use up a slot with a tiny board, so why
support them.

As part of this thread, I was digging around for context and ran
across ads in ComputerWorld and such as archived on Google Books.  The
ads indicate a reseller price of $4,000 for one MS750CA (1MB board) in
1984.  By the time I was buying them (for work) around 1989 I think,
ISTR prices around $400-$600

> Anyway, as you say, you would not want that little memory.

No good reason to.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb  9 10:27:25 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  9 Feb 2016 11:27:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
Message-ID: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > Can I tear apart my little BA23 .. and put the Micro/PDP-11 backplane
    > .. into the spot that my 11/03 backplane currently occupies and run it
    > via the (working) stock 11/03 power supply?
    > ...
    > Specifically, would I have to butcher power and clock lines to do this,
    > or is it all plug compatible? 

I'm not absolutely sure exactly what you have that's holding the '11/03
backplane'; if it's a standard BA11-M enclosure, the answer, sadly, is 'no'.

The BA-23 uses the H9278-A backplane and H7864 power supply; the BA11-M uses
the H9270-A and H780 backplane. The power connections between the first two
are completely different from the latter pair; the first uses a long,
single-width Molex-type connector, the latter uses bare wire ends to a
terminal block on the backplane.

Also, the H9270-A is a four-slot backplane, and the H9278-A (an eight-slot)
almost certainly will not physically fit into the space for the former.

If your '11/03 backplane' is a different kind of backplane, in some other kind
of box (e.g. BA11-N or BA11-S), the answer, sadly, is still 'no', because they
both also use terminal blocks for power. (Although if you have a BA11-S, you'd
already be set, those are Q22 native.)

Really, it's not that hard to upgrade an H9270-A (or the H9273-A in a BA11-N)
to Q22 (I have done several of the latter); the transplant you speak of (were
it possible) is on the same order of magnitude of work.

	Noel

PS: In dragging my BA23 out to look at it, it dawned on me that I will
probably never, ever use it - I now have several BA11-N/S boxes, and prefer
them. (I don't need to run the later disks that need the BA23.) So if someone
is interested in the either the BA23, or the spare H7864 I have for it, please
let me know. I'll let either go for my original cost plus shipping.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb  9 10:39:11 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  9 Feb 2016 11:39:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The PDP11/04 has landed..
Message-ID: <20160209163911.6918518C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

     > From: Henk Gooijen

    > you need some some components to generate the AC LO and DC LO signals.
    > The 11/04 needs them.

You could also do what I did on an off-brand LSI-11 chassis I had, whose
power supply was working (producing good +5V/+12V), but whose power control
board (to generate AC/DC OK signals) wasn't working - and I didn't have a
circuit diagram for it.

So I was lazy, and cheated: I disconnected the control board connection to
the backplane, and the pull-up termination resistors brought the AC/DC lines
up to their 'OK' state! :-)

I don't _recommend_ this, but it does work! If you do this, probably best to
power on the machine with the HALT switch asserted, so it doesn't try to run
while the power is still coming on! :-)

	Noel

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 09:36:51 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:36:51 -0500
Subject: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k
In-Reply-To: <566C5111.8050201@gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD+KsHhne8K_0zx2Db3akCtJTiCg0mv31D9wQHQ9tS4BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <566BB1C6.2020309@gmail.com> <566C5111.8050201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfCPu1gPbyzs0AohkiWvR0Dn2LADMMw295m_z8zu9nUOjg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the replies, fellows.   Just to (maybe) put this thread to bed
for a while and summarize: I didn't manage to get the m2333k disks to talk
to the sc21-BMG controller.  I think it had to do with an incompatible
number of bytes per sector - no matter how I set up the disk's sectoring,
the controller continued to generate errors.  Just too much coming in with
every read, it seemed, and it didn't matter how you sliced and diced it,
the logic's just not there to make these two talk nice.  I think an MSCP
SMD controller would take care of this as it's possible to configure
geometry in a more dynamic way.  I ended up spinning up my other Fuji160
(listed as supported in the sc21bm manual) and getting things going.
Miraculously, its surfaces were in such great shape that it actually passed
xxdp zrmlb0 (iirc).  Sadly its bearings are making noise, so I can't risk
keeping it on much.  I don't think there's a viable way to re-lubricate the
beast, but let me know if you think there is.

Also, correction of above:  note that 2.9.1BSD was *before* disklabels and
the drivers and kernel are compiled statically with disk layout information
hard-coded in.

Anyway, thanks again, all!  My 11/34 is actually working pretty well and I
now have a full 2.9BSD distribution loaded and functioning!   I've even
recompiled the kernel and replaced the generic one with something more slim
and tuned to my site needs.  Hoping to set up SL/IP next to try and get
some networking to the machine, but fearing that the 11/34 might just be
too darned small to run tcp at all.

--jake

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 10:59:09 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:59:09 -0500
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>


> On Feb 8, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> I'll see what I can do to get it converted to a downloadable file. I have a
> friend with both a 9 track (556/800/1600) and a 7 track transport.

556 bpi 9 track???  That (along with 200 and 800) is a standard density for 7 track tape, but for 9 track I've only seen 800, 1600, 6250.

	paul


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 11:09:41 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 17:09:41 -0000
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>

The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I remember properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> 
> The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
> importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it to work. It's
> the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> something out.
> 
> Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the first time in...
> at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU starts and
> immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno if it's
> crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have no
> schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU IBM bought
> in - made in China IIRC.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
> <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third
> > party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were
> > particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the
> > waning years since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even
> > use.  Any leads on on for a reasonable price?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 11:11:45 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 17:11:45 -0000
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
 <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <030601d1635c$f4f0fc30$ded2f490$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 09 February 2016 16:59
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Oregon Pascal tape found
> 
> 
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 5:32 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'll see what I can do to get it converted to a downloadable file. I
> > have a friend with both a 9 track (556/800/1600) and a 7 track
transport.
> 
> 556 bpi 9 track???  That (along with 200 and 800) is a standard density
for 7
> track tape, but for 9 track I've only seen 800, 1600, 6250.
> 
> 	paul
Honeywell had a 1200BPI 7-Track that used Chrome tape...

Dave 
G4UGM


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 11:17:04 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 09:17:04 -0800
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
 <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLepUx0t-RRUaV1HYRy0UWUZ0nR9G+XrDtgdS1PGKGz8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2016 8:59 AM, "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 556 bpi 9 track???  That (along with 200 and 800) is a standard density
for 7 track tape, but for 9 track I've only seen 800, 1600, 6250.
>

The Qualstar 1052 table top drives I had did the usual 1600 plus also 3200.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Feb  9 11:17:25 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:17:25 -0500
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <030601d1635c$f4f0fc30$ded2f490$@gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
 <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
 <030601d1635c$f4f0fc30$ded2f490$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D8950FBA-9E23-4BE4-A550-6459EDDEAE9C@comcast.net>


> On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> ...
>>> I'll see what I can do to get it converted to a downloadable file. I
>>> have a friend with both a 9 track (556/800/1600) and a 7 track
> transport.
>> 
>> 556 bpi 9 track???  That (along with 200 and 800) is a standard density
> for 7
>> track tape, but for 9 track I've only seen 800, 1600, 6250.
>> 
>> 	paul
> Honeywell had a 1200BPI 7-Track that used Chrome tape...

Yes, in non-9 track there are a number of more obscure formats.  There's CDC's 14 track (1 inch wide) tape, there is the original Univac Uniservo with metal tape apparently at 128 bpi, etc.

	paul



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Tue Feb  9 11:26:48 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 09:26:48 -0800
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A96D6258-1444-4E31-AE86-08F8F07EFF6B@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 9, 2016, at 1:23 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third party
> 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were particularly
> rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the waning years
> since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even use.  Any leads on
> on for a reasonable price?

If you want ?real? terminals to hook up to it (yea, I know IBM 3290?s are cool)
the easiest terminals to find are the IBM 3178/3179.  Usually you?ll be able to
get the display and then have to hunt a keyboard (but it?s the IBM standard
keyboard with the 5-pin DIN connector?any of those should work).  Folks have
(unfortunately) figured out that they can get more for the keyboard than the
terminal.

TTFN - Guy


From allanh-cctalk3 at kallisti.com  Tue Feb  9 12:22:08 2016
From: allanh-cctalk3 at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 10:22:08 -0800
Subject: 6502 CPUs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1455040800.19188.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1455040800.19188.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20160209182208.GA23130@kallisti.com>

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 at 18:46:13 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote:
> Having had another bit of CBM kit with a failed CPU I'm wondering where you
> lovely US folk get your spares from since ebay seems a bit ridiculous for
> replacements at ukp8 a pop being the lowest price. They're surely not THAT
> valuable?

The first place I always check for things like that is Anchor Electronics
(anchor-electronics.com).  I see that they don't list the 6502, but they
do have the 6502B for $4.95.  I have no idea whether they ship outside the
US or not.  The second place I check is Jameco, and someone else already
posted that they have them.

allan

-- 
Allan N. Hessenflow      allanh at kallisti.com

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 12:36:24 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 13:36:24 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAWc+0xbnN5aoN9RUz5Fn=QCP4nVqS_VQta6tPSW1icuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
>
>
> I'm not absolutely sure exactly what you have that's holding the '11/03
> backplane'; if it's a standard BA11-M enclosure, the answer, sadly, is
> 'no'.
> [...]
> If your '11/03 backplane' is a different kind of backplane, in some other
> kind
> of box (e.g. BA11-N or BA11-S), the answer, sadly, is still 'no', because
> they
> both also use terminal blocks for power. (Although if you have a BA11-S,
> you'd
> already be set, those are Q22 native.)
>
>
OK, now that I know what I'm looking for, my target options here are:

Chassis:
BA11-N and "OBA11-R" (an expansion box)

Backplanes currently in these chassis are:
H9273 and H9273-A

Power supplies are all H786.


> Really, it's not that hard to upgrade an H9270-A (or the H9273-A in a
> BA11-N)
> to Q22 (I have done several of the latter); the transplant you speak of
> (were
> it possible) is on the same order of magnitude of work.
>
>         Noel
>


So, since grafting in the Micro backplane would involve butcher work, I'm
now wholeheartedly convinced that I should be moving to your setup with the
BA11-N/S boxes, Noel.  And I'm sold on the Q-22 backplane conversion
(despite failing the first time I tried it years ago).  Going to study what
prints I have, review previous advice and go for it.

Thank you for all the tips and hand-holding!

--jake

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Feb  9 13:18:06 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 14:18:06 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
Message-ID: <140abc.1b3d65ac.43eb956d@aol.com>

I have an  11/73  card in one of  my video editing  systems...
does this mean I can give my H-11 more balls?
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/9/2016 11:36:30 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jacob.ritorto at gmail.com writes:

On Tue,  Feb 9, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Noel Chiappa  <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
>
>
> I'm not  absolutely sure exactly what you have that's holding the '11/03
>  backplane'; if it's a standard BA11-M enclosure, the answer, sadly, is
>  'no'.
> [...]
> If your '11/03 backplane' is a different kind of  backplane, in some other
> kind
> of box (e.g. BA11-N or BA11-S),  the answer, sadly, is still 'no', because
> they
> both also use  terminal blocks for power. (Although if you have a BA11-S,
>  you'd
> already be set, those are Q22 native.)
>
>
OK,  now that I know what I'm looking for, my target options here  are:

Chassis:
BA11-N and "OBA11-R" (an expansion  box)

Backplanes currently in these chassis are:
H9273 and  H9273-A

Power supplies are all H786.


> Really, it's not  that hard to upgrade an H9270-A (or the H9273-A in a
> BA11-N)
>  to Q22 (I have done several of the latter); the transplant you speak  of
> (were
> it possible) is on the same order of magnitude of  work.
>
>          Noel
>


So, since grafting in the Micro backplane would  involve butcher work, I'm
now wholeheartedly convinced that I should be  moving to your setup with the
BA11-N/S boxes, Noel.  And I'm sold on  the Q-22 backplane conversion
(despite failing the first time I tried it  years ago).  Going to study what
prints I have, review previous advice  and go for it.

Thank you for all the tips and  hand-holding!

--jake


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue Feb  9 13:48:40 2016
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 19:48:40 -0000
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <005f01d16372$e0377f10$a0a67d30$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: 09 February 2016 16:27
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
> 
>     > From: Jacob Ritorto
> 
>     > Can I tear apart my little BA23 .. and put the Micro/PDP-11
backplane
>     > .. into the spot that my 11/03 backplane currently occupies and run
it
>     > via the (working) stock 11/03 power supply?
>     > ...
>     > Specifically, would I have to butcher power and clock lines to do
this,
>     > or is it all plug compatible?
> 
> I'm not absolutely sure exactly what you have that's holding the '11/03
> backplane'; if it's a standard BA11-M enclosure, the answer, sadly, is
'no'.
> 
> The BA-23 uses the H9278-A backplane and H7864 power supply; the BA11-M
> uses the H9270-A and H780 backplane. The power connections between the
> first two are completely different from the latter pair; the first uses a
long,
> single-width Molex-type connector, the latter uses bare wire ends to a
> terminal block on the backplane.
> 
> Also, the H9270-A is a four-slot backplane, and the H9278-A (an
eight-slot)
> almost certainly will not physically fit into the space for the former.
> 
> If your '11/03 backplane' is a different kind of backplane, in some other
kind
> of box (e.g. BA11-N or BA11-S), the answer, sadly, is still 'no', because
they
> both also use terminal blocks for power. (Although if you have a BA11-S,
> you'd already be set, those are Q22 native.)
> 
> Really, it's not that hard to upgrade an H9270-A (or the H9273-A in a
BA11-N)
> to Q22 (I have done several of the latter); the transplant you speak of
(were
> it possible) is on the same order of magnitude of work.
> 
> 	Noel
> 
> PS: In dragging my BA23 out to look at it, it dawned on me that I will
probably
> never, ever use it - I now have several BA11-N/S boxes, and prefer them.
(I
> don't need to run the later disks that need the BA23.) So if someone is
> interested in the either the BA23, or the spare H7864 I have for it,
please let
> me know. I'll let either go for my original cost plus shipping.

Is this in the USA?

Regards

Rob


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Tue Feb  9 14:08:53 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 13:08:53 -0700
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>

It's 100% compatible to 3174, it just sends a bitstream down to the
terminal.  If somebody can send me the image that may help eventually.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they
> became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I remember
> properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...
>
> Dave
> G4UGM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Ross
> > Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> >
> > The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
> > importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it to
> work. It's
> > the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> > If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> > something out.
> >
> > Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the first
> time in...
> > at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU starts
> and
> > immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno if
> it's
> > crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have no
> > schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU
> IBM bought
> > in - made in China IIRC.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
> > <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> > > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third
> > > party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were
> > > particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the
> > > waning years since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even
> > > use.  Any leads on on for a reasonable price?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://www.corestore.org
> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>
>

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 14:33:44 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:33:44 +1300
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbND2uUSd4zf=y2T0b6UGWGHww+xG_FdJqcfCEtVd+O0vw@mail.gmail.com>

Imaging the thing will be extremely tricky; the 3174 uses 2.4MB
floppies which I don't think are used *anywhere* else; you can't just
pull the drive out of the 3174 and throw it on a PC because the BIOS
won't have a clue about 2.4MB 5 1/4" disks; people have tried that
approach before. And the code doesn't allow you to format a blank
floppy; you have to use IBM pre-formatted disks. You can copy the code
from one disk to another.

But the easiest way would be to do what Guy has done; take a 3174 with
a hard disk and replace the disk with an MFM emulator. You *can* copy
the 3290 DSL code from a floppy to a hard disk and run it from
there... does your Memorex device have a hard disk? If not I would
suggest obtaining a 3174 with a hard disk as a first step; they're
relatively plentiful and cheap and you WILL want it to avoid dealing
with the hassles of flaky floppy hardware. In fact I would suggest
obtaining one anyway; no reason to mess around with a non-standard
Memorex when 'everyone else' is using real 3174s...

Mike

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> It's 100% compatible to 3174, it just sends a bitstream down to the
> terminal.  If somebody can send me the image that may help eventually.
>
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they
>> became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I remember
>> properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...
>>
>> Dave
>> G4UGM
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>> Ross
>> > Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
>> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
>> >
>> > The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
>> > importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it to
>> work. It's
>> > the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
>> > If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
>> > something out.
>> >
>> > Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the first
>> time in...
>> > at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU starts
>> and
>> > immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno if
>> it's
>> > crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have no
>> > schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU
>> IBM bought
>> > in - made in China IIRC.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
>> > <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
>> > > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and third
>> > > party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were
>> > > particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in the
>> > > waning years since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to even
>> > > use.  Any leads on on for a reasonable price?
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Kevin
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > http://www.corestore.org
>> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
>> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
>> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>>
>>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue Feb  9 14:29:13 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:29:13 -0800
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <D8950FBA-9E23-4BE4-A550-6459EDDEAE9C@comcast.net>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
 <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
 <030601d1635c$f4f0fc30$ded2f490$@gmail.com>
 <D8950FBA-9E23-4BE4-A550-6459EDDEAE9C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-r5JezZ+_sGNvZz6uKPdpZ=8bQM=CmwfVArwGF-P9Ymg@mail.gmail.com>

There are a few odd balls in 9-track as well, but the 556 was a typo.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> ...
> >>> I'll see what I can do to get it converted to a downloadable file. I
> >>> have a friend with both a 9 track (556/800/1600) and a 7 track
> > transport.
> >>
> >> 556 bpi 9 track???  That (along with 200 and 800) is a standard density
> > for 7
> >> track tape, but for 9 track I've only seen 800, 1600, 6250.
> >>
> >>      paul
> > Honeywell had a 1200BPI 7-Track that used Chrome tape...
>
> Yes, in non-9 track there are a number of more obscure formats.  There's
> CDC's 14 track (1 inch wide) tape, there is the original Univac Uniservo
> with metal tape apparently at 128 bpi, etc.
>
>         paul
>
>
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 15:48:19 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 16:48:19 -0500
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=m27bbQgwXfPfTCuwcjn5E3PY0XwZ0rpW-gnOkGzhS0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>> If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-)
> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.

I am half sad.  My 11/20 faceplate reads 11/20 (I'm only half-sad
because at least I _have_ an 11/20... just need to spend a bunch of
time fixing it since it's in pieces).

-ethan

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Tue Feb  9 16:21:45 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 15:21:45 -0700
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbND2uUSd4zf=y2T0b6UGWGHww+xG_FdJqcfCEtVd+O0vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbND2uUSd4zf=y2T0b6UGWGHww+xG_FdJqcfCEtVd+O0vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtC3enLayAUJ1RFZTiS+G6tYX9weM7-mTskAYo_hv1ZGKQ@mail.gmail.com>

It does have HD, it's a really nice unit
https://twitter.com/kevinbowling1/status/696944481023741952.  It can load
data from a 3.5" floppy, but I will need to get the file on to it somehow.
I will contact the company and see what they recommend, it must have been a
common operating mod so I'm not sure it isn't preloaded.  I would still
entertain a real 3174-22L at the right price.

Regards,

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:

> Imaging the thing will be extremely tricky; the 3174 uses 2.4MB
> floppies which I don't think are used *anywhere* else; you can't just
> pull the drive out of the 3174 and throw it on a PC because the BIOS
> won't have a clue about 2.4MB 5 1/4" disks; people have tried that
> approach before. And the code doesn't allow you to format a blank
> floppy; you have to use IBM pre-formatted disks. You can copy the code
> from one disk to another.
>
> But the easiest way would be to do what Guy has done; take a 3174 with
> a hard disk and replace the disk with an MFM emulator. You *can* copy
> the 3290 DSL code from a floppy to a hard disk and run it from
> there... does your Memorex device have a hard disk? If not I would
> suggest obtaining a 3174 with a hard disk as a first step; they're
> relatively plentiful and cheap and you WILL want it to avoid dealing
> with the hassles of flaky floppy hardware. In fact I would suggest
> obtaining one anyway; no reason to mess around with a non-standard
> Memorex when 'everyone else' is using real 3174s...
>
> Mike
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
> wrote:
> > It's 100% compatible to 3174, it just sends a bitstream down to the
> > terminal.  If somebody can send me the image that may help eventually.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they
> >> became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I remember
> >> properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...
> >>
> >> Dave
> >> G4UGM
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> >> Ross
> >> > Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
> >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> >> >
> >> > The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and more
> >> > importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order for it
> to
> >> work. It's
> >> > the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> >> > If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> >> > something out.
> >> >
> >> > Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the
> first
> >> time in...
> >> > at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU
> starts
> >> and
> >> > immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno if
> >> it's
> >> > crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have
> no
> >> > schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party PSU
> >> IBM bought
> >> > in - made in China IIRC.
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
> >> > <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> >> > > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and
> third
> >> > > party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine these were
> >> > > particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been destroyed in
> the
> >> > > waning years since it takes special equipment/know how/desire to
> even
> >> > > use.  Any leads on on for a reasonable price?
> >> > >
> >> > > Regards,
> >> > > Kevin
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > http://www.corestore.org
> >> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> >> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> >> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 18:11:19 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 00:11:19 -0000
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05be01d16397$9195cc20$b4c16460$@gmail.com>

It is not 100% compatible with a 3174, it does not run 3174 microcode, it will not accept 3174 config files. It has 3.5" disk drives. IMHO that?s not 100% compatible. 

It does look like a 3714 to the mainframe and so the mainframe can't tell the difference.

That?s not to say its not possible to load the 3190 DSL code BUT the Memorex controllers were often used with Memorex Telex terminals (I have one here) so it may be 3190 DSL doesn't.

On the other hand I would expect it to support 317x Graphics terminals which also had a DSL disk so there is hope...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Bowling
> Sent: 09 February 2016 20:09
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> 
> It's 100% compatible to 3174, it just sends a bitstream down to the terminal.
> If somebody can send me the image that may help eventually.
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they
> > became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I
> > remember properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...
> >
> > Dave
> > G4UGM
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Mike
> > Ross
> > > Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> > >
> > > The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and
> > > more importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order
> > > for it to
> > work. It's
> > > the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> > > If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> > > something out.
> > >
> > > Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the
> > > first
> > time in...
> > > at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU
> > > starts
> > and
> > > immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno
> > > if
> > it's
> > > crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have
> > > no schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party
> > > PSU
> > IBM bought
> > > in - made in China IIRC.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
> > > <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> > > > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and
> > > > third party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine
> > > > these were particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been
> > > > destroyed in the waning years since it takes special
> > > > equipment/know how/desire to even use.  Any leads on on for a
> reasonable price?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Kevin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > http://www.corestore.org
> > > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >
> >


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Feb  9 20:08:09 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 20:08:09 -0600
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=m27bbQgwXfPfTCuwcjn5E3PY0XwZ0rpW-gnOkGzhS0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=m27bbQgwXfPfTCuwcjn5E3PY0XwZ0rpW-gnOkGzhS0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56BA9B89.80600@charter.net>

On 2/9/2016 3:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-)
>> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.
> 
> I am half sad.  My 11/20 faceplate reads 11/20 (I'm only half-sad
> because at least I _have_ an 11/20... just need to spend a bunch of
> time fixing it since it's in pieces).
> 
> -ethan
> 

And I actually have *two* 11/20's. Both read "pdp11/20" on the faceplate.

I know the vintage of one of them - I worked with it in 1971 as an
engineering student. That one still has its RC disk which works, and
runs (I have DOS installed on it, just as it originally ran).

The other has some Diablo 30 (RK03) disks, which are not entirely happy
at present.

JRJ


From rich.cini at verizon.net  Tue Feb  9 20:08:07 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 21:08:07 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
Message-ID: <BF5710D2-34FE-4CF5-B8B5-F23A26D040EB@verizon.net>

All ?

I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the other day and it has a single 4kw memory board. From my prior experiences with DEC (an 11/34a many years ago; now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way around the field guide?but I?m having trouble trying to identify the correct module number suitable for the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I assume it?s module compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 20:35:58 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 18:35:58 -0800
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <BF5710D2-34FE-4CF5-B8B5-F23A26D040EB@verizon.net>
References: <BF5710D2-34FE-4CF5-B8B5-F23A26D040EB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+eC_C85keOJ=1k2LhAOG35c55SYJH0rf3A7PkLgCAbeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:
> All ?
>
> I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the other day and it has a single 4kw memory board. From my prior experiences with DEC (an 11/34a many years ago; now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way around the field guide?but I?m having trouble trying to identify the correct module number suitable for the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I assume it?s module compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
>
> Rich

Maybe an M8044 MSV11-D (no parity) or M8045 MSV11-E (parity) would be
most appropriate. They came in 4KW, 8KW, 16KW, and 32KW flavors.

http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/msv1dop1.pdf

Fairly common on eBay.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Feb  9 20:47:04 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:47:04 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
Message-ID: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>

I have not opened up ours yet but I always assumed  they were all DEC  
boards.
Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 
 
 
In a message dated 2/9/2016 7:36:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
glen.slick at gmail.com writes:

On Tue,  Feb 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>  
wrote:
> All ?
>
> I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the  other day and it has a single 4kw 
memory board. From my prior experiences with  DEC (an 11/34a many years ago; 
now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way  around the field guide?but I?
m having trouble trying to identify the correct  module number suitable for 
the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I  assume it?s module 
compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!
>
> Rich

Maybe an M8044 MSV11-D (no parity) or  M8045 MSV11-E (parity) would be
most appropriate. They came in 4KW, 8KW,  16KW, and 32KW  flavors.

http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/msv1dop1.pdf

Fairly  common on eBay.

From Mark at Misty.com  Tue Feb  9 20:56:24 2016
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:56:24 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAWc+0xbnN5aoN9RUz5Fn=QCP4nVqS_VQta6tPSW1icuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfAWc+0xbnN5aoN9RUz5Fn=QCP4nVqS_VQta6tPSW1icuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160210025624.GA26895@allie.home.misty.com>

Jake,

> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
....
> > Really, it's not that hard to upgrade an H9270-A (or the H9273-A in a
> > BA11-N)
> > to Q22 (I have done several of the latter); the transplant you speak of
> > (were
> > it possible) is on the same order of magnitude of work.
> >
> >         Noel

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 01:36:24PM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> So, since grafting in the Micro backplane would involve butcher work, I'm
> now wholeheartedly convinced that I should be moving to your setup with the
> BA11-N/S boxes, Noel.  And I'm sold on the Q-22 backplane conversion
> (despite failing the first time I tried it years ago).  Going to study what
> prints I have, review previous advice and go for it.
> 
> Thank you for all the tips and hand-holding!

I just did this conversion to an oddball dual-wide backplane, and
it was extremely was easy. I used a bag of 50 pre-cut wire-wrap 
jumpers which were a few dollars from Jameco or Digikey.

This page (which even mentions Noel!) has clear information and 
pictures identifying the four pins involved:

   http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/conv22.php

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Tue Feb  9 21:18:09 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Rich Cini)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 22:18:09 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>

Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right? 

Rich Cini

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 9, 2016, at 9:47 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have not opened up ours yet but I always assumed  they were all DEC  
> boards.
> Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 2/9/2016 7:36:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> glen.slick at gmail.com writes:
> 
> On Tue,  Feb 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>  
> wrote:
>> All ?
>> 
>> I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the  other day and it has a single 4kw
> memory board. From my prior experiences with  DEC (an 11/34a many years ago; 
> now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way  around the field guide?but I?
> m having trouble trying to identify the correct  module number suitable for 
> the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I  assume it?s module 
> compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!
>> 
>> Rich
> 
> Maybe an M8044 MSV11-D (no parity) or  M8045 MSV11-E (parity) would be
> most appropriate. They came in 4KW, 8KW,  16KW, and 32KW  flavors.
> 
> http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/msv1dop1.pdf
> 
> Fairly  common on eBay.

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 21:35:36 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:35:36 -0600
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22+YRnQUcW46YGaQ4+b=2RD9R3Xos-YLOuPrekn9YQxaQ@mail.gmail.com>

yes 32kw and it works nicely got one in mine

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Rich Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:

> Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the
> M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
>
> Rich Cini
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 9, 2016, at 9:47 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I have not opened up ours yet but I always assumed  they were all DEC
> > boards.
> > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 2/9/2016 7:36:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> > glen.slick at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > On Tue,  Feb 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >> All ?
> >>
> >> I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the  other day and it has a single 4kw
> > memory board. From my prior experiences with  DEC (an 11/34a many years
> ago;
> > now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way  around the field
> guide?but I?
> > m having trouble trying to identify the correct  module number suitable
> for
> > the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I  assume it?s module
> > compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> > Maybe an M8044 MSV11-D (no parity) or  M8045 MSV11-E (parity) would be
> > most appropriate. They came in 4KW, 8KW,  16KW, and 32KW  flavors.
> >
> > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/msv1dop1.pdf
> >
> > Fairly  common on eBay.
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb  9 21:43:28 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 19:43:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <56BA9B89.80600@charter.net>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=m27bbQgwXfPfTCuwcjn5E3PY0XwZ0rpW-gnOkGzhS0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BA9B89.80600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602091939520.18552@shell.lmi.net>

>>> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.
>> I am half sad.  My 11/20 faceplate reads 11/20 (I'm only half-sad
> And I actually have *two* 11/20's. Both read "pdp11/20" on the faceplate.

Q: Do they read
PDP-11
PDP-11/20
pdp11/20
11/20

If we're going to get picky about this, then let's not ignore case and 
punctuation.
How many of those are actual existing variations, and how many are 
ignoring trivial stuff like punctuation and case?

And just to complete the issue, what kind of font do they use?



From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Feb  9 21:44:07 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:44:07 -0600
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPTBN7rgidRh+RXe-rn3XF4Sq3s8yd3-UgrxfyY22EhKw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

The M8044 MSV11-D is a lot more common than the M8045.  I would say the
MSV11-D  would mad put your system nicely and should cost no more than $50,
possibly well under that.

Paul

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Rich Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net> wrote:

> Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the
> M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
>
> Rich Cini
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 9, 2016, at 9:47 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I have not opened up ours yet but I always assumed  they were all DEC
> > boards.
> > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 2/9/2016 7:36:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> > glen.slick at gmail.com writes:
> >
> > On Tue,  Feb 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >> All ?
> >>
> >> I picked-up a Heath H-11 machine the  other day and it has a single 4kw
> > memory board. From my prior experiences with  DEC (an 11/34a many years
> ago;
> > now at the RI Computer Museum), I know my way  around the field
> guide?but I?
> > m having trouble trying to identify the correct  module number suitable
> for
> > the LSI-11 CPU. Even though it?s a Heath machine, I  assume it?s module
> > compatible with DEC. Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!
> >>
> >> Rich
> >
> > Maybe an M8044 MSV11-D (no parity) or  M8045 MSV11-E (parity) would be
> > most appropriate. They came in 4KW, 8KW,  16KW, and 32KW  flavors.
> >
> > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/msv1dop1.pdf
> >
> > Fairly  common on eBay.
>

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Tue Feb  9 21:47:42 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 22:47:42 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>

 >Rich Cini wrote:

>Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
>
Correct, the maximum memory on a board is 32kw.

For an LSI-11 (aka PDP-11/03) without any MMU hardware,
the actual maximum memory that can be accessed must also allow
for the IOPAGE registers.  Usually, the IOPAGE address range
is 4 kw which leaves 28kw for everything else, including RT-11
(assuming that is what you are running).  There is one option
available with some hardware to reduce the address range
set aside for the IOPAGE to just 2kw which then leaves
30kw for everything else.  Unless you are running a specific
program which requires the extra 2kw, it is probably not
worth the extra effort.

Jerome Fine

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 00:28:00 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 01:28:00 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <20160210025624.GA26895@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <20160209162725.A20A918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfAWc+0xbnN5aoN9RUz5Fn=QCP4nVqS_VQta6tPSW1icuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160210025624.GA26895@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfADgDmUKfkwda-oReJuL0kzFt0S2oo8GBaASWqHvqZvRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yisssss.  ?I struggled for hours with inadequate eyesight, tools and
materials, but I think I got this mod done!

  My KDJ11-B is plugged into what was a stock H9273 (bc1, bd1, be1, bf1
chained straight down the backplane using four wires to be a H9276) and it
runs!  I've only plugged in one other board, the memory, and it shows up
(4088KB as opposed to 248 KB before the Q22 mod) and seems to work for the
locations I've fiddled with in ODT, but the machine's stuck in self-test at
error 47, Memory CSR error.

 It was stopping with this same error when I ran it as a "before" test in
the 18-bit backplane, so I'm guessing it's not just my mod causing the
error..

  What I assume is the parity light on the third party "Clearpoint QRAM-2
SPB-1 88B" lights during self test.  I've found no documentation for this
sucker as yet..

  So unless my luck (and soldering) are terrible, I guess the years of
harsh storage may have broken something in the memory because it was fine
in 1999 before the power supply on the Micro failed.  Heck, maybe that
event burned something on the memory board, too.  I'll have to find my rl02
controller and build the system up some more so I can run xxdp and find out
what exactly died.  Maybe it's just a bad socketed RAM.

Tip in case someone didn't know: You can break out of the never ending
self-test sequence by pressing crtl-O 4 when confronted with the 1,2,3 menu
and move on to other parts of the ROM (I did this so I could temporarily
disable the tests and get on with booting xxdp).

Thanks again to everybody for the encouragement!  I freaking love these
machines and even this limited success feels fantastic.  Stoked.  You guys
are the best.


--jake

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Feb 10 00:41:42 2016
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 23:41:42 -0700
Subject: Programming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602091939520.18552@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20160208202354.A5DA918C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAKtEJ03=ZzbWxUmSBqOFH+qjM_yzAhMycxDV4GSedQv5e6nYdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=m27bbQgwXfPfTCuwcjn5E3PY0XwZ0rpW-gnOkGzhS0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BA9B89.80600@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602091939520.18552@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56BADBA6.7090202@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/9/2016 8:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'.
>>> I am half sad.  My 11/20 faceplate reads 11/20 (I'm only half-sad
>> And I actually have *two* 11/20's. Both read "pdp11/20" on the faceplate.
>
> Q: Do they read
> PDP-11
> PDP-11/20
> pdp11/20
> 11/20
>
> If we're going to get picky about this, then let's not ignore case and
> punctuation.
> How many of those are actual existing variations, and how many are
> ignoring trivial stuff like punctuation and case?
>
> And just to complete the issue, what kind of font do they use?
>

I am more thinking after getting them to run, it is more like
PDP 11/20+ and PDP 11/20- .
Ben.



From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 01:17:43 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 23:17:43 -0800
Subject: For HP fans: HP 85 + HP 7970 + HP 2631 demo
Message-ID: <00c301d163d3$22a9aed0$67fd0c70$@gmail.com>

In case you had not seen it already. I finally managed to control my big HP 7970E 9-track tape and my HP 2631G dot matrix from the little HP 85 that could. Hey, they all talk the same HP-IB after all (well, not really but close enough). Here is the resulting demo of this odd 1970's trio:
https://youtu.be/YS9dGYUbNd0
Marc



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Feb 10 04:28:04 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:28:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Oregon Pascal tape found
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-r5JezZ+_sGNvZz6uKPdpZ=8bQM=CmwfVArwGF-P9Ymg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAEEMHCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
 <1454520248.2635.3.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <56B308B7.6070900@oryx.us>
 <CAK7dMtCZ5EWoDgE6pV-W4h_c1+ko4jY0ivNNc-c3bs7iB22D8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1602050755400.4117@z87>
 <38255.10.10.10.2.1454689379.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
 <20160205185924.GZ4998@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAEvVyqEsW0pxGaU95d2to+Q2scC=9OOxRdr5eQfxPLikoVdXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u8EYN3uN9XetJRU-DRCZk=gHWEMVyvEWZmhpJ5E+tLogg@mail.gmail.com>
 <129B6EF7-5FFB-4F26-8A43-F52A0BDBA69B@comcast.net>
 <030601d1635c$f4f0fc30$ded2f490$@gmail.com>
 <D8950FBA-9E23-4BE4-A550-6459EDDEAE9C@comcast.net>
 <CAA-F0u-r5JezZ+_sGNvZz6uKPdpZ=8bQM=CmwfVArwGF-P9Ymg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602101125420.9371@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 9 Feb 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> There are a few odd balls in 9-track as well, but the 556 was a typo.

Really?
I actually *do* have a 9 track tape drive (HP 7970) that has 200/556/800 
bpi densities:
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/hp7970_2.jpg

And it is a *9* track tape, I know for sure.

Christian

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 05:19:24 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 06:19:24 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net> <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5963450D-7796-43B8-AB29-CA345F32DAE8@verizon.net>

Jerome -- good point about the IOPAGE. Maybe I'll get an 8kw and 16kw board -- that gives me 28kw with the included 4kw.  I have no specific software so I don't need to tinker with reducing IOPAGE. 

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> >Rich Cini wrote:
> 
>> Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
> Correct, the maximum memory on a board is 32kw.
> 
> For an LSI-11 (aka PDP-11/03) without any MMU hardware,
> the actual maximum memory that can be accessed must also allow
> for the IOPAGE registers.  Usually, the IOPAGE address range
> is 4 kw which leaves 28kw for everything else, including RT-11
> (assuming that is what you are running).  There is one option
> available with some hardware to reduce the address range
> set aside for the IOPAGE to just 2kw which then leaves
> 30kw for everything else.  Unless you are running a specific
> program which requires the extra 2kw, it is probably not
> worth the extra effort.
> 
> Jerome Fine

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 07:14:39 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 08:14:39 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net> <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <42F08610-D531-4056-B967-47AE9CB1FDDB@verizon.net>

I just picked up an M8044-CC (16kw) so that should hold me for a while. I need to print the manual so I can set the switches right. 

Thanks all!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> >Rich Cini wrote:
> 
>> Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
> Correct, the maximum memory on a board is 32kw.
> 
> For an LSI-11 (aka PDP-11/03) without any MMU hardware,
> the actual maximum memory that can be accessed must also allow
> for the IOPAGE registers.  Usually, the IOPAGE address range
> is 4 kw which leaves 28kw for everything else, including RT-11
> (assuming that is what you are running).  There is one option
> available with some hardware to reduce the address range
> set aside for the IOPAGE to just 2kw which then leaves
> 30kw for everything else.  Unless you are running a specific
> program which requires the extra 2kw, it is probably not
> worth the extra effort.
> 
> Jerome Fine

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 10 11:17:34 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:17:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Odd 11/23 (?) ROM carrier
Message-ID: <20160210171734.C531418C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Anyone know what this:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/251526917058

is? It has five chips, not six, so it's not the KEF11-BB CIS option. I've
tried Web searches on "57-27889-01", but not turned up anything useful.

	Noel

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 10 11:56:30 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:56:30 +0100
Subject: Odd 11/23 (?) ROM carrier
In-Reply-To: <20160210171734.C531418C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160210171734.C531418C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS3959F66C7DA4EABBDB57BB86D70@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa 
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 6:17 PM 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
Subject: Odd 11/23 (?) ROM carrier 

Anyone know what this:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/251526917058

is? It has five chips, not six, so it's not the KEF11-BB CIS option. I've
tried Web searches on "57-27889-01", but not turned up anything useful.

Noel

---------
All chips on the carrier have the text DC327C-3x (where x is 1.2.3.4.5).
That lead me to "V-11 VAX chip RAM/ROM patchable control store".
And ... KA820-AA.
See http://www.cpu-galaxy.at/Boards/Boards_CPU/Boards_CPU.htm
in the mid of that page.  Nice page, hadn't seen that one before.
Cool looking chip!

- Henk

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Feb 10 13:36:13 2016
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 14:36:13 -0500
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I was stopping by a local recycler to pick up a few Cisco switches I bought
to add to my lab, and while I was there, I happened to spot a complete IBM
System z9 machine out of the U-M Health System.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Type-2096-S07-System-z9-Enterprise-Server-TESTED-w-Console-Laptops-/331446263648

The fellow that I was speaking with indicated that they might accept a
little bit less than the tagged price.

Perhaps this is a bit on the new side for the list but I figured these
don't come around too often and this might be a good place to find it a
home... I know there are lots of IBM enthusiasts here.

Best,

Sean

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Wed Feb 10 13:40:14 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 19:40:14 +0000
Subject: Real tape drive densities [was RE: Oregon Pascal tape found]
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Christian Corti
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 2:28 AM

> On Tue, 9 Feb 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:

>> There are a few odd balls in 9-track as well, but the 556 was a typo.

> Really?

> I actually *do* have a 9 track tape drive (HP 7970) that has 200/556/800 
> bpi densities:

> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/hp7970_2.jpg

> And it is a *9* track tape, I know for sure.

Actually, what you have is a *dual-density* tape drive, an HP7970E.  It
will write 9-track tapes at 800bpi, or 7-track tapes at 200, 556, or 800.

See the manual for the 7970 drive family at

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 13:47:12 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:47:12 -0800
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>

Now that's some serious hardware, thanks for posting. IBM folks, what would you run on something like this if you had it "at home"? What OS and apps does it run?
Marc

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 11:36 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was stopping by a local recycler to pick up a few Cisco switches I bought
> to add to my lab, and while I was there, I happened to spot a complete IBM
> System z9 machine out of the U-M Health System.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Type-2096-S07-System-z9-Enterprise-Server-TESTED-w-Console-Laptops-/331446263648
> 
> The fellow that I was speaking with indicated that they might accept a
> little bit less than the tagged price.
> 
> Perhaps this is a bit on the new side for the list but I figured these
> don't come around too often and this might be a good place to find it a
> home... I know there are lots of IBM enthusiasts here.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean

From tingox at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 13:58:07 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 20:58:07 +0100
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that's some serious hardware, thanks for posting. IBM folks, what would you run on something like this if you had it "at home"? What OS and apps does it run?

Operating system: I would be surprised if it runs anything besides
z/OS and Linux.


> Marc
>
>> On Feb 10, 2016, at 11:36 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was stopping by a local recycler to pick up a few Cisco switches I bought
>> to add to my lab, and while I was there, I happened to spot a complete IBM
>> System z9 machine out of the U-M Health System.
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Type-2096-S07-System-z9-Enterprise-Server-TESTED-w-Console-Laptops-/331446263648
>>
>> The fellow that I was speaking with indicated that they might accept a
>> little bit less than the tagged price.
>>
>> Perhaps this is a bit on the new side for the list but I figured these
>> don't come around too often and this might be a good place to find it a
>> home... I know there are lots of IBM enthusiasts here.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sean


Yes, I am an (ex)IBMer.
No, I haven't had my hands on a mainframe.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 14:01:17 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:01:17 -0500
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>

> Operating system: I would be surprised if it runs anything besides
> z/OS and Linux.

VSE will run on a z9.

--
Will

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 14:05:00 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:05:00 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities [was RE: Oregon Pascal tape found]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>

Nice unit! Drool. Looks like this is a NRZI triple density tape, so  7970A or B. The later 7970E would have a 1600 PE density switch too. I have an E, but not with the multiple density or 7 track options unfortunately. Thanks for the link to the series overview manual Rich.
Marc

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Christian Corti
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 2:28 AM
> 
>> On Tue, 9 Feb 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> 
>>> There are a few odd balls in 9-track as well, but the 556 was a typo.
> 
>> Really?
> 
>> I actually *do* have a 9 track tape drive (HP 7970) that has 200/556/800 
>> bpi densities:
> 
>> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/hp7970_2.jpg
> 
>> And it is a *9* track tape, I know for sure.
> 
> Actually, what you have is a *dual-density* tape drive, an HP7970E.  It
> will write 9-track tapes at 800bpi, or 7-track tapes at 200, 556, or 800.
> 
> See the manual for the 7970 drive family at
> 
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf
> 
>                                                                Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computer Museum
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
> 
> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
> 
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Feb 10 14:05:10 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:05:10 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <f5f2cf2f-a5c7-4082-92ff-89e62acd49ab@classiccmp.org>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net>
 <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
 <f5f2cf2f-a5c7-4082-92ff-89e62acd49ab@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56BB97F6.3030500@compsys.to>

 >Richard Cini wrote:

>Jerome -- good point about the IOPAGE. Maybe I'll get an 8kw and 16kw board -- that gives me 28kw with the included 4kw.  I have no specific software so I don't need to tinker with reducing IOPAGE. 
>
>Rich
>
>>>On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
>>>      
>>>
>>Correct, the maximum memory on a board is 32kw.
>>
>>For an LSI-11 (aka PDP-11/03) without any MMU hardware,
>>the actual maximum memory that can be accessed must also allow
>>for the IOPAGE registers.  Usually, the IOPAGE address range
>>is 4 kw which leaves 28kw for everything else, including RT-11
>>(assuming that is what you are running).  There is one option
>>available with some hardware to reduce the address range
>>set aside for the IOPAGE to just 2kw which then leaves
>>30kw for everything else.  Unless you are running a specific
>>program which requires the extra 2kw, it is probably not
>>worth the extra effort.
>>
I hope that my version of arithmetic is for 8kw + 16kw = 24kw,
so somewhere I don't understand where the other 4kw comes
from.

Then, since you are missing only 4kw out of the maximum of
28kw (which is the normal maximum), you will not likely have
a problem unless you have really memory rich programs.

RT-11 runs fairly well in just 16kw (or 32 KB), so it should not be a
problem.  For my own work in which I need to run MACRO.SAV
as fast as possible, I run the program in 64 KB of extended memory
under a Mapped Monitor - which a PDP-11/03 (or an LSI-11)
can't do since there is no MMU chip.

Of course, my actual CPU is a Pentium III which I use to run Ersatz-11
so that RT-11 is running 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93.  And the
disk I/O is also a bit faster.  I can copy a 32 MB RT-11 partition to
a second 32 MB RT-11 partition in under 2 seconds.  Even with two
ESDI hard drives on a PDP-11/93, that takes over 4 minutes.

Jerome Fine

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Wed Feb 10 14:24:45 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 15:24:45 -0500
Subject: Good memory board for Heath H-11?
In-Reply-To: <56BB97F6.3030500@compsys.to>
References: <1800a0.2d8ea12d.43ebfea8@aol.com>
 <58040D5E-D3BE-4290-AD95-92F8547F9284@verizon.net> <56BAB2DE.90704@compsys.to>
 <f5f2cf2f-a5c7-4082-92ff-89e62acd49ab@classiccmp.org>
 <56BB97F6.3030500@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <6BB55350-00E3-44D2-8771-DF33FAABA3FB@verizon.net>

Jerome -- it's "new math" :-)

Seriously though, I guess I could have been a bit clearer in my description, but think I had mentioned somewhere along the way that the unit already had 4kw of memory, so I was trying to get to 28kw to leave IOPAGE open. I also just realized that the boards have a "page 7 disable" which operated like the S100 "phantom" signal which is why a 32kw board would work. Learning lots during this process. Everything I forgot about my 11/34a is starting to come back. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> >Richard Cini wrote:
> 
>> Jerome -- good point about the IOPAGE. Maybe I'll get an 8kw and 16kw board -- that gives me 28kw with the included 4kw.  I have no specific software so I don't need to tinker with reducing IOPAGE. 
>> Rich
>> 
>>>>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I was getting confused between the M8044 and M7944 boards. Max memory for the LSI-11 is 32kw, right?
>>> Correct, the maximum memory on a board is 32kw.
>>> 
>>> For an LSI-11 (aka PDP-11/03) without any MMU hardware,
>>> the actual maximum memory that can be accessed must also allow
>>> for the IOPAGE registers.  Usually, the IOPAGE address range
>>> is 4 kw which leaves 28kw for everything else, including RT-11
>>> (assuming that is what you are running).  There is one option
>>> available with some hardware to reduce the address range
>>> set aside for the IOPAGE to just 2kw which then leaves
>>> 30kw for everything else.  Unless you are running a specific
>>> program which requires the extra 2kw, it is probably not
>>> worth the extra effort.
> I hope that my version of arithmetic is for 8kw + 16kw = 24kw,
> so somewhere I don't understand where the other 4kw comes
> from.
> 
> Then, since you are missing only 4kw out of the maximum of
> 28kw (which is the normal maximum), you will not likely have
> a problem unless you have really memory rich programs.
> 
> RT-11 runs fairly well in just 16kw (or 32 KB), so it should not be a
> problem.  For my own work in which I need to run MACRO.SAV
> as fast as possible, I run the program in 64 KB of extended memory
> under a Mapped Monitor - which a PDP-11/03 (or an LSI-11)
> can't do since there is no MMU chip.
> 
> Of course, my actual CPU is a Pentium III which I use to run Ersatz-11
> so that RT-11 is running 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93.  And the
> disk I/O is also a bit faster.  I can copy a 32 MB RT-11 partition to
> a second 32 MB RT-11 partition in under 2 seconds.  Even with two
> ESDI hard drives on a PDP-11/93, that takes over 4 minutes.
> 
> Jerome Fine

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 14:40:01 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 09:40:01 +1300
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbN5_D_fNc+mKYendHQf4LZzEcnnta1wiSn6Tgzh5kcG3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 9:01 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Operating system: I would be surprised if it runs anything besides
>> z/OS and Linux.
>
> VSE will run on a z9.

As will TPF. And z/VM of course.

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 15:36:41 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 21:36:41 -0000
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbN5_D_fNc+mKYendHQf4LZzEcnnta1wiSn6Tgzh5kcG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbN5_D_fNc+mKYendHQf4LZzEcnnta1wiSn6Tgzh5kcG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04d401d1644b$21cb9550$6562bff0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: 10 February 2016 20:40
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
> 

It has been around for a while. I don't believe it has any DASD so a SAN would also be needed.

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 9:01 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Operating system: I would be surprised if it runs anything besides
> >> z/OS and Linux.
> >
> > VSE will run on a z9.
> 
> As will TPF. And z/VM of course.
> 

I expect that MTS & Music will also run on a Z9. 

> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'


Dave
G4UGM


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Feb 10 16:00:58 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 14:00:58 -0800
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d1644e$86581040$930830c0$@net>

> > Operating system: I would be surprised if it runs anything besides
> > z/OS and Linux.
> 


BUT will it run Doom ;)?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

-Ali


From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Wed Feb 10 17:37:33 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 23:37:33 +0000
Subject: Real tape drive densities [was RE: Oregon Pascal tape found]
In-Reply-To: <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Curious Marc
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 12:05 PM

Top-posting,

>> On Feb 10, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org>
>> wrote:

>> From: Christian Corti
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 2:28 AM

>>> I actually *do* have a 9 track tape drive (HP 7970) that has 200/556/800 
>>> bpi densities:

>>> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/hp7970_2.jpg

>>> And it is a *9* track tape, I know for sure.

>> Actually, what you have is a *dual-density* tape drive, an HP7970E.  It
>> will write 9-track tapes at 800bpi, or 7-track tapes at 200, 556, or 800.

> Nice unit! Drool. Looks like this is a NRZI triple density tape, so
> 7970A or B. The later 7970E would have a 1600 PE density switch too. I
> have an E, but not with the multiple density or 7 track options
> unfortunately. Thanks for the link to the series overview manual Rich.

Note that Christian Corti stated that his drive is capable of 9-track
operation.  That's an E.  (Apparently that will also write 9-track PE at
1600bpi, but it will write 9-track NRZI at 800bpi).

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 18:10:31 2016
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 16:10:31 -0800
Subject: [long shot] Looking for a Sequent Symmetry...
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWB7RqnmhHDnEZkVY6V8huwKg46toyqZHKbesUxhpdwDxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Preferably one of the deskside SMP models.
Proving a point about under what circumstances X86 machines can be
considered cool... :^)

Located in Seattle.

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Feb 10 18:21:52 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 17:21:52 -0700
Subject: [long shot] Looking for a Sequent Symmetry...
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWB7RqnmhHDnEZkVY6V8huwKg46toyqZHKbesUxhpdwDxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWB7RqnmhHDnEZkVY6V8huwKg46toyqZHKbesUxhpdwDxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCHBZ4oz40uc_DsGtkxDWRut3u-cYJDdZ_94pYX9Kyv+A@mail.gmail.com>

Please upload some photos when you find one :)

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Ian Finder <ian.finder at gmail.com> wrote:

> Preferably one of the deskside SMP models.
> Proving a point about under what circumstances X86 machines can be
> considered cool... :^)
>
> Located in Seattle.
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>

From mcesari at comcast.net  Wed Feb 10 19:16:56 2016
From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 18:16:56 -0700
Subject: Odd 11/23 (?) ROM carrier
In-Reply-To: <20160210171734.C531418C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160210171734.C531418C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <61E89F92-1121-47DE-A5DE-B5FB55E7EBA7@comcast.net>


> On Feb 10, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> Anyone know what this:
> 
>  http://www.ebay.com/itm/251526917058
> 
> is? It has five chips, not six, so it's not the KEF11-BB CIS option. I've
> tried Web searches on "57-27889-01", but not turned up anything useful.
> 
> 	Noel

It's from a VAX 8200 CPU board (T1001). Photo here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-VAX-KA820AA-CPU.jpg

Mike


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 23:55:14 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 21:55:14 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities [was RE: Oregon Pascal tape found]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>

>> Nice unit! Drool. Looks like this is a NRZI triple density tape, so 
>> 7970A or B. 
>> Marc
> Note that Christian Corti stated that his drive is capable of 9-track
operation.  That's an E.  
> (Apparently that will also write 9-track PE at 1600bpi, but it will write
9-track NRZI at 800bpi).
> Rich

Interesting. So what model do you think he has? For example, from the manual
you listed, I see only two E models that can do dual 7/9 track with all the
lower speeds he has, the 7970E -164 and the -165 (a master and a slave). But
both of them are Read Only (because of the dual 7/9 track read head needed,
I suspect they did not have the space to put a double write head too). This
conflicts with his tape lacking a 1600 density button, and having a Write
Enable light. The latter strongly suggests it is a Read after Write tape,
not a Read Only one. 
That's why I thought he had a 7970A or a 7970B (-136), that can read and
write 200, 556 and 800 NRZI. This would match all the front panel buttons we
see. However it looks like the 200/500/800 NRZI were only made in 7-track
guise. This conflicts with Christian  saying his tape is a 9 track. 
So I cannot find a model match for both what I see and what is said about
it. Christian, it would be nice to have a picture with the door closed and
confirm the model letter. If such a model exists (dual 7/9 track dual
read/write and dual NRZI/PE), I'd like to know which one it is (and get one
;-) ).
Marc



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Feb 11 00:06:37 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 22:06:37 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities [was RE: Oregon Pascal tape found]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <53DEA435-EB24-4496-8CDF-0048213E49BC@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-10, at 3:37 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Curious Marc
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 12:05 PM
> 
> Top-posting,
> 
>>> On Feb 10, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org>
>>> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Christian Corti
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 2:28 AM
> 
>>>> I actually *do* have a 9 track tape drive (HP 7970) that has 200/556/800 
>>>> bpi densities:
> 
>>>> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/hp7970_2.jpg
> 
>>>> And it is a *9* track tape, I know for sure.
> 
>>> Actually, what you have is a *dual-density* tape drive, an HP7970E.  It
>>> will write 9-track tapes at 800bpi, or 7-track tapes at 200, 556, or 800.
> 
>> Nice unit! Drool. Looks like this is a NRZI triple density tape, so
>> 7970A or B. The later 7970E would have a 1600 PE density switch too. I
>> have an E, but not with the multiple density or 7 track options
>> unfortunately. Thanks for the link to the series overview manual Rich.
> 
> Note that Christian Corti stated that his drive is capable of 9-track
> operation.  That's an E.  (Apparently that will also write 9-track PE at
> 1600bpi, but it will write 9-track NRZI at 800bpi).

Not sure whether you're intending a qualifier to the 9-track  /  E model association,
but 9-track drives in the 7970 series go back to the 7970A (I have a 7970A in the 9-track, 800BPI variant).

The HP 7970 B/E manual shows only 3 model-options with 200 & 556 bpi:

	- 7970B-136   200/556/800 7-track

	- 7970E-164   200/556/800/1600, dual-capability 7 & 9 track, READ-ONLY
	- 7970E-165   200/556/800/1600, dual-capability 7 & 9 track, READ-ONLY

None of the dual-capability 7 & 9 track model-options listed in the manual are capable of writing, nor is any model-option listed capable of writing 200/556 9-track.
An HP manual speaks of HP producing dual-capability 7&9 track heads but they are read-only heads.

Photos in the manual show the dual-capability 7&9 variant with selector switches for 7&9 track and 1600 bpi (in addition to the 200/556/800 selectors).
The unit presented by Christian does not have the additional selectors.

The manual does mention that there are non-standard, "Special" variants.
The manual mentions 7970C as a 'special configuration' of the B but doesn't say what the difference is.

If the unit presented by Christian is 9-track, it does not seem to be any of the standard B or E variants.
I'd suggest resolution would require Christian to identify the model & option (specific model label is on the inside in my unit).


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Feb 11 04:28:33 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 11:28:33 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016, CuriousMarc wrote:
>> Note that Christian Corti stated that his drive is capable of 9-track
> operation.  That's an E.

It is not an E.

>> (Apparently that will also write 9-track PE at 1600bpi, but it will write
> 9-track NRZI at 800bpi).

I would know that ;-)

> Interesting. So what model do you think he has? For example, from the manual
[...]
> That's why I thought he had a 7970A or a 7970B (-136), that can read and
> write 200, 556 and 800 NRZI. This would match all the front panel buttons we
[...]

I have a 7970B (-236) with options 127, 006, 007, 012 and 023.

More and better pictures are here now:
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/7970/

Christian

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Thu Feb 11 08:56:55 2016
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 14:56:55 +0000
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>

It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are
too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they
primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.

On 9 February 2016 at 04:50, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:11 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I ran my VAX 4000-200 all day today.
>
> Nice.
>
> > I have never worked with an older
>
> I happened to get a lot of opportunity in the 80s to work with VAXen,
> then Alphas in the 90s and a little beyond (I haven't been paid to run
> VMS since about 2003).
>
> > VAX.  I run VMS 6.2    Today I booted off the backup drive to keep it
> > fresh, DIA5.  I am running MULTINET.
>
> Nice.  We never had Ethernet back in the day - everything was async
> lines (and Kermit and BLAST) and sync lines (HASP, 3780 and SNA via
> our own products, plus DDCMP on DEC sync serial interfaces and a
> point-to-point DECnet network)
>
> > 3 M7622 16MB RAM boards installed.  :-)
>
> I never had more than 8MB on a big VAX or 9MB on a MicroVAX.  I had to
> go to Alphas to get that much RAM (and then, boy, did you need it!)
> With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB was a little pinched at
> times, but mostly OK.  It kinda hurt first thing in the morning when
> everyone was in VMS MAIL and soaking up a bunch of RAM, but unless we
> had half our users in MAIL, a quarter of our users in business apps
> like Access 20/20 (spreadsheets) or MASS-11 (word processor) _and_
> someone kicking off a build with Whitesmith's C, we didn't swap much.
> All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years
> before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT.
>
> -ethan
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb 11 10:34:42 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 10:34:42 -0600
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2016 08:56 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
> It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are
> too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they
> primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.
>
>
We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 
11/780.  We had an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of memory.  
It was a pretty basic system, but ran rings around the 
campus 360/65 system.  We also had a pair of 370/145's that 
were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran rings around BOTH 
of them.  They ran time sharing on them, limited to 4 
users/machine.  We often had 8+ users plus batch jobs 
running on our 780.)

Jon

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Feb 11 10:56:03 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 11:56:03 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>

 >Jon Elson wrote:

> >On 02/11/2016 08:56 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>
>> It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are
>> too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they
>> primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.
>
> We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 11/780.  We had 
> an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of memory.  It was a pretty basic 
> system, but ran rings around the campus 360/65 system.  We also had a 
> pair of 370/145's that were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran rings 
> around BOTH of them.  They ran time sharing on them, limited to 4 
> users/machine.  We often had 8+ users plus batch jobs running on our 
> 780.) 

Any idea about the date of when VMS could do that with a VAX?

I don't remember how expensive a Cyber 3300 was back in 1967, but I
worked at Northern Electric in Ottawa at the time.

The standard operating system was being used (I certainly can't remember
the actual name) and there were CDC (washing machine sized) disk drives
with those removable platters.

The IT department produced software which was able to support many users
editing files via CRT terminals.  I can't remember the maximum number, but
I would estimate that it was at least a dozen.  There were also a number of
commands, one of which allowed a file to be submitted as a batch job.  The
batch job queue was able to run ONE job at a time.  There might have been
a high priority queue for very short jobs.

Every night, the system backed up all the hard disk files to tape.

At one point, the size of the file directory was increased from about 
2000 files
to about 6000 files.  In addition, the search algorithm changed from linear
(start to when the file was found) to a hash value based on the name of the
file - normally the first file access found the file label block number.

The reason for this reply is to document that there were already such
systems available with very innovative software solutions as far back
as the 1970s.  About a year later in 1968, a utility opened in Toronto,
MAGCC (Multiple Access General Computer Corporation if I remember
correctly) which supported the identical software using a Cyber 3500.
Thus the software concept had started to spread,  They used dial-up
modems, probably around 300 baud.  I don't remember dial-up
modems being capable of 9600 baud until a decade later.

I also can't remember what a Cyber 3300 cost back in 1967, but I would
suggest that the cost per user was probably similar to what VMS on a VAX
supported, but MANY years later than 1967 to 1968.

If anyone is really interested. it might be possible to search for the 
information.
However, Northern Electric is VERY long gone now!

Jerome Fine

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Feb 11 10:57:29 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 11:57:29 -0500
Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBPTX=hF8ibqCkrTSyGqU97sXW+2OMyhqrn8bMcYh9kEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHYQbfCpgY5Bzjigd6SMO7t2JEaNvNJxd3rxXSL0WVXn+Oor-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <56B944A0.20308@compsys.to>
 <CAHYQbfBPTX=hF8ibqCkrTSyGqU97sXW+2OMyhqrn8bMcYh9kEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56BCBD79.4070108@compsys.to>

>Jacob Ritorto wrote:

>>On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>
>>Specifically, I always use a SEPARATE PC power supply for the hard disk drives.
>
>Yep, this sounds like exactly where I went wrong.   Two RD32s running
>24/7.  Took it only a couple months to burn out.  In the next incarnation
>of this machine (i.e. if I ever learn to repair power supplies), I'll set
>it up as Jerome describes.
>
One other point that might help with an RT-11 system which needs the
CPU and specific programs running all the time, but does not require
some of the hard drives all of the time.

Any hard drives which are not the system drive can be powered down
when they are not being used.  If necessary, the device driver which
manages that hard drive is allowed to be UNLOADed and even
REMOVEd while the drive is not being used.  NOTE that this can't
be done with the system hard drive and any other drives attached to
the same controller.

If there is only ONE RQDX3 controller, it might be worth while to
find a second RQDX3 controller for the hard drives which don't
need to be running all the time.

The manner in which the comment that the RD32 hard drives had
been running 24/7 was stated suggested that perhaps they were on
a controller (RQDX3 if I can remember correctly) which did not
also manage the system hard drive.  In that case, RT-11 allows
the device driver to be UNLOADed and REMOVEd and the
hard drive itself can be powered down.  Just reverse the process
when it is necessary to use the hard drive again.

Operating systems such as TSX-Plus are not allowed to do this.
Any Windows system also seems to require hard drives to always
be available - although more recent Windows systems also power
down the hard drives when they are not being used.

Jerome Fine



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 11:06:41 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:06:41 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnyrvWmiYPKFxhmVxTSMN0O7ezfzFt3aQiq=XMP8QQzCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
> It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are
> too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they
> primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.
>
> On 9 February 2016 at 04:50, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB...
>> All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years
>> before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT.

VAXen weren't exactly cheap (our 11/750 was ordered the week they were
announced and was, I'm told, the first one shipped to the midwest (S/N
BT000354).  ISTR it was $120,000 with 2MB and 2X RK07, then we added a
Systems Industries SI9900 SMD controller and had a 160MB Fuji drive
and a 400+ MB Fuji Eagle.  I don't have the numbers on that, but it
was another $30,000 at least, I'm reasonably certain.  I do know when
we bought an RA81 in mid-1984, it was 424MB for $24,000.  DEC VT100s
were around $1,800 in the early-1980s, I'm pretty sure, then we
switched to CiTOH terminals for around $1,600.  When you add in
16-port Emulex CS21s to attach all those terminals, and divide the
cost of the central machine by the number of users, I think you get
that $5,000 per user cost.  IBM-brand PCs were also about the same
cost per seat, but the software was a lot cheaper (minicomputer apps
were tens of thousands of dollars for a handful of users; PC apps were
hundreds per user), and PC maintenance was way cheaper (but not as
convenient as a full-service maintenance contract).

So, yeah, DEC gear was expensive and PCs were cheaper, but perhaps not
as much cheaper as people felt they were.

BTW, these are all new prices from when the gear was first launched
(when we bought those items).  Where the savings came was if you could
live 2-3 years behind the leading edge.  I bought a lot of DEC
equipment from resellers that kept us going for more than 10 years.
Lots of other companies went with Ethernet and PCs on every desk, etc.
We stuck with minicomputers (VAXen and PDP-11s) for the vast majority
of our work (correspondence, software development, cutting customer
tapes...) and used PCs for a couple of specific tasks (accounting,
because Peachtree on an IBM PS/2 Model 30 was way cheaper than any
equivalent app for VMS, and circuit board design with OrCAD and
PADS-PCB).

So there's a slice of the mid-80s and how we got things done.  I'm
reminded a bit of all this recently as I'm refurbing a DEC VT220 and
an IBM 3130 terminal, to use with a modern Linux box to share with
folks the experience of life on dumb terminals.  I'll probably make a
post soon, once I get the hardware all cleaned up, calling for
favorite DEC and IBM games that play on dumb terminals.

-ethan

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 11:11:42 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:11:42 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnyrvWmiYPKFxhmVxTSMN0O7ezfzFt3aQiq=XMP8QQzCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnyrvWmiYPKFxhmVxTSMN0O7ezfzFt3aQiq=XMP8QQzCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddY5AKrpN7DzAeD1YoiocLsJzyC9No7+yXv2rjaYwkcdg@mail.gmail.com>

> DEC VT100s
> were around $1,800 in the early-1980s,

VT100s (and terminals in general) often were used as bargaining chips
to sweeten deals, so the price was quite "flexible".

--
Will

From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Thu Feb 11 11:21:15 2016
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:21:15 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7E69DDDD-8E2B-4F83-8702-74B6CF12FFA5@VMSSoftware.com>

Just thinking about Mark?s email here. Keeping in mind that this is from a DEC persons point of view.  You probably all know and appreciate this.  While the DEC hardware may have been more expensive than other companies many customers are still running the hardware today.  I am thinking of several customers that are still running PDP11?s in a production environment.  I am also thinking of VMS customers that have been up an running for 33 solid years.  This is almost inconceivable with current hardware and software.
When I worked with Nemonix we had customers needed replacement parts for the majority of the server hardware that DEC made.  This was on the server side not necessarily the Network products like the Gigaswitch or hubs.

Just my 2 cents,
Have a great day,
Sue



> On Feb 11, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are
> too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they
> primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.
> 
> On 9 February 2016 at 04:50, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:11 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I ran my VAX 4000-200 all day today.
>> 
>> Nice.
>> 
>>> I have never worked with an older
>> 
>> I happened to get a lot of opportunity in the 80s to work with VAXen,
>> then Alphas in the 90s and a little beyond (I haven't been paid to run
>> VMS since about 2003).
>> 
>>> VAX.  I run VMS 6.2    Today I booted off the backup drive to keep it
>>> fresh, DIA5.  I am running MULTINET.
>> 
>> Nice.  We never had Ethernet back in the day - everything was async
>> lines (and Kermit and BLAST) and sync lines (HASP, 3780 and SNA via
>> our own products, plus DDCMP on DEC sync serial interfaces and a
>> point-to-point DECnet network)
>> 
>>> 3 M7622 16MB RAM boards installed.  :-)
>> 
>> I never had more than 8MB on a big VAX or 9MB on a MicroVAX.  I had to
>> go to Alphas to get that much RAM (and then, boy, did you need it!)
>> With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB was a little pinched at
>> times, but mostly OK.  It kinda hurt first thing in the morning when
>> everyone was in VMS MAIL and soaking up a bunch of RAM, but unless we
>> had half our users in MAIL, a quarter of our users in business apps
>> like Access 20/20 (spreadsheets) or MASS-11 (word processor) _and_
>> someone kicking off a build with Whitesmith's C, we didn't swap much.
>> All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years
>> before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT.
>> 
>> -ethan
>> 

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886






Connect VMS Boot Camp will be the week of Sept 25, 2016 at the Radisson in Nashua NH. 





From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Feb 11 13:48:08 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 19:48:08 +0000
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Jerome H. Fine
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 8:56 AM

>> Jon Elson wrote:

>> We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 11/780.  We had 
>> an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of memory.  It was a pretty basic 
>> system, but ran rings around the campus 360/65 system.  We also had a 
>> pair of 370/145's that were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran rings 
>> around BOTH of them.  They ran time sharing on them, limited to 4 
>> users/machine.  We often had 8+ users plus batch jobs running on our 
>> 780.) 

> Any idea about the date of when VMS could do that with a VAX?

From the very beginning?  That is, 25 October 1977?

VMS was built from the get-go as a timesharing operating system with a
virtual memory architecture.  It was not the best of such, nor was the
hardware done particularly well (a VM system with no Page-Modified bit
in hardware? seriously???), but it was certainly capable of handling
that many users (and more, depending on job mix).

DEC was the first company to build timeshared large systems as standard[1],
beginning with the PDP-6.  The PDP-10 (a reimplementation of the PDP-6) was
successful enough to go through 3 generations (renamed to DECsystem-10 and
DECSYSTEM-20) of market success, enough to inspire 2 research labs (Xerox
PARC and Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) and 3 manufacturers
(Foonly, Systems Concepts, and XKL) to design and, except for SAIL[2], to
build clones.  The PDP-6 came out in 1964, the PDP-10 in 1967 (KA-10), with
later members of the family in 1971 (KI-10), 1974 (KL-10), and 1979 (KS-10).
All of them were capable of handling up to 100 users.

So what was your question, really?

                                                                Rich

[1] Other timesharing systems existed, yes, but they were RPQ add-ons to
    standard batch-oriented hardware.  Timesharing was built in on the PDP-6
    factory floor.

[2] DEC liked the design of the SAIL machine so much that they bought it,
    and hired the grad student who maintained the CAD software written at
    SAIL which was used to design it.  That became the 3rd generation of the
    PDP-10 family, the KL-10 processor.



Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb 11 13:54:09 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 14:54:09 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>


> On Feb 11, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Jerome H. Fine
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 8:56 AM
> 
>>> Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>>> We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 11/780.  We had 
>>> an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of memory.  It was a pretty basic 
>>> system, but ran rings around the campus 360/65 system.  We also had a 
>>> pair of 370/145's that were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran rings 
>>> around BOTH of them.  They ran time sharing on them, limited to 4 
>>> users/machine.  We often had 8+ users plus batch jobs running on our 
>>> 780.) 
> 
>> Any idea about the date of when VMS could do that with a VAX?
> 
> From the very beginning?  That is, 25 October 1977?
> 
> VMS was built from the get-go as a timesharing operating system with a
> virtual memory architecture.  It was not the best of such, nor was the
> hardware done particularly well (a VM system with no Page-Modified bit
> in hardware? seriously???), but it was certainly capable of handling
> that many users (and more, depending on job mix).

Indeed.  RSTS/E did better, with less hardware -- 64 users on an 11/70 was no problem, and earlier on you could run 16 users on an 11/20 (though not all that comfortably).  

	paul


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 14:12:12 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:12:12 -0500
Subject: Dumb terminals and many sessions (was Re: VAXen and minimal memory)
Message-ID: <CAALmimnsAmV9Bpznn2G88-zAHejsJDs6NBLO3YahJj4RqgrxWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 12:11 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
>> DEC VT100s
>> were around $1,800 in the early-1980s,
>
> VT100s (and terminals in general) often were used as bargaining chips
> to sweeten deals, so the price was quite "flexible".

I have no doubts that was true when selling systems, but I remember
seeing the paperwork from when we were growing, so 10 new employees
meant 10 new terminals (and sometimes one more CS21)...

Eventually, we stopped growing, then started shrinking, so it was
feasible to log into two systems at once by having two terminals on
your desk.  We also had structured wiring from Nevada Western (DB25
modular adapters on each terminal, 6-pin silver satin cables to the
wall, and several 3U "switchboard" panels with blocks of jacks and
25-pair telco cables back to the VAXen) so it was also easy to employ
2-line switch blocks at our desks.  Eventually, we had "modern"
terminals like the CiTOH 101e that supported a second session over the
"serial printer" line (we never used the second line for hardcopy).

Now, I use computers with bitmap screens to maintain multiple
simultaneous character-based sessions.  Same workflow, less wire and
fewer large hunks of plastic and metal on my desk.

-ethan

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 14:24:20 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:24:20 -0500
Subject: Dumb terminals and many sessions (was Re: VAXen and minimal
 memory)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnsAmV9Bpznn2G88-zAHejsJDs6NBLO3YahJj4RqgrxWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnsAmV9Bpznn2G88-zAHejsJDs6NBLO3YahJj4RqgrxWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddzLUWV2kGX8mayXBvj0VY20Jj+zT+o3qkAwVvDKJ8zsQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I have no doubts that was true when selling systems, but I remember
> seeing the paperwork from when we were growing, so 10 new employees
> meant 10 new terminals (and sometimes one more CS21)...

Oh yes, when you are cornered, they know when to strike!

While DEC (or IBM or HP or...) probably made little or no money on the
terminals bundled with systems, they could sure make it up later. BIG
markups.

--
Will

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 14:29:39 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:29:39 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dehs-2dqV9QHaZjDeLvkN25BnzsvK2s8ewQ+BAnK=4ZSw@mail.gmail.com>

> From the very beginning?  That is, 25 October 1977?

Some of the DECpeople that have graced the halls of RCS/RI have a
wildly different opinion.

VMS 1.0 was a total kludge, and could make an 11/780 fall over in no
time flat. 2.0 was a huge improvement. VMS just had to go back in the
oven for a while.

--
Will

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 14:39:55 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:39:55 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>

> Indeed.  RSTS/E did better, with less hardware -- 64 users on an 11/70 was no problem, and earlier on you could run 16 users on an 11/20 (though not all that comfortably).

It all depends on what the users are doing, of course. When I went to
school back in the late 1980s, the main computer was (for a while) a
VAX-11/780. Things started to get dodgy with 30 engineering students
online compiling and running crap code, and almost useless when 35
were on.

There was also an ancient PDP-11/70 that ran some variant of Unix, and
that general became useless after about 10 students were online.

--
Will

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb 11 14:52:22 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:52:22 -0800
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>


> On Feb 11, 2016, at 12:39 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Indeed.  RSTS/E did better, with less hardware -- 64 users on an 11/70 was no problem, and earlier on you could run 16 users on an 11/20 (though not all that comfortably).
> 
> It all depends on what the users are doing, of course. When I went to
> school back in the late 1980s, the main computer was (for a while) a
> VAX-11/780. Things started to get dodgy with 30 engineering students
> online compiling and running crap code, and almost useless when 35
> were on.
> 
> There was also an ancient PDP-11/70 that ran some variant of Unix, and
> that general became useless after about 10 students were online.
> 

In the mid-to-late 70?s, I was an undergrad at CMU.  I had accounts on the
CS department?s systems.  When I started, it was 2 KA10s.  Eventually a
KL10 was added (all running a *heavily* patched version of TOPS10).

During the day it was nearly impossible to get stuff done with ~200 faculty
and grad students on-line (on each system).

I also spent a fair amount of time on C.MMP but I only wrote code for it and
never actually did any ?production? work on it (but it was *cool* to see?cross
point switch was the ultimate in blinking lights!).

TTFN - Guy


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Feb 11 15:41:03 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 13:41:03 -0800
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>

My memories from the early 1980s are of a room full of undergrads
working on rows of VT100s (maybe 50+ at least?) on a DECSYSTEM-2065
running TOPS-20.

Things usually seemed to run pretty well on that system, until the
night before programming assignments were due.

Nothing quite like a room full of VT100s beeping in unison and
printing the dreaded "%DECSYSTEM-20 not running" message when things
hit the maximum load, followed by waiting for the system to restart
and hoping your work in progress was saved recently.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb 11 15:50:42 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 16:50:42 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <C4CC4C2F-B78A-4E97-8A12-015C38362B77@comcast.net>


> On Feb 11, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> ...
> 
> In the mid-to-late 70?s, I was an undergrad at CMU.  I had accounts on the
> CS department?s systems.  When I started, it was 2 KA10s.  Eventually a
> KL10 was added (all running a *heavily* patched version of TOPS10).
> 
> During the day it was nearly impossible to get stuff done with ~200 faculty
> and grad students on-line (on each system).

The most amazing timesharing system I've seen is PLATO.  In 1977: 600 active users, highly interactive, on a pair of Cyber 73 (CDC 6500) dual CPU machines.  Each CPU good for about 1-2 MIPS, so that's pretty good.  Even with a customized workload, that was a tough lift; typically about half the keystrokes would require "real work".  Not like a command line based system where most keystrokes just get echoed and stuffed into the current line buffer.

	paul



From guy at cuillin.org.uk  Thu Feb 11 16:38:38 2016
From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 22:38:38 +0000
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>

In late '86 I was running a VAX8500 with 2 RA81s and a TU80 for Deluxe
Coachlines in Australia. We computerised their coach reservation system.

System growth was brisk as the company and the application grew. The 8500
became an 8550 and gained some more RA81s and then in late 87 we move to a
new site.

Prior to moving a new 8550, 2 HSC50s, star coupler and 24 (count 'em!)
RA81s in RAID 1 pairs, a spare and a quorum drive and two TU78s
(master/slave I think) were installed at the new site. For the actual
migration we just moved some data on tape.

About a week before the move the live 8550 in the old site failed with a
double CPU fault. I rang the field circus number, logged the fault and
impressed upon them the urgency of the call. After too long with no sign of
an engineer I called again and was told the engineers were on site and
working on the fault. As I could look directly into the computer room from
my desk I knew this was not so. I restarted the live 8550 and called field
circus to vent. They'd got confused between our two sites and two 8550s and
gone to the new site. Turns out that the new 8550 had a double CPU fault
too! We decided to ensure the new 8550 was working and moved with little
fuss a week later. We then moved the old 8550 and completed our VAXcluster.

We later upgraded the HSC50s (took ages to boot off tape) to HDC70s which I
think booted off floppy. Each 8550 ended up with 80MB RAM. It was a pretty
big system. I left Australia in March '88 and visited again a couple of
years later by which time an 8820 had joined the cluster.

Thick Ethernet served the office using LAT terminal servers and two (maybe
four) big terminal servers (PDP11 based think) were connected to Penril
multiplexers for an Australia wide terminal network.

Then there were the laser printers whose power on self test display
included a kangeroo bouncing along the one line LCD display!

Fun times.



On 11 February 2016 at 21:41, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> My memories from the early 1980s are of a room full of undergrads
> working on rows of VT100s (maybe 50+ at least?) on a DECSYSTEM-2065
> running TOPS-20.
>
> Things usually seemed to run pretty well on that system, until the
> night before programming assignments were due.
>
> Nothing quite like a room full of VT100s beeping in unison and
> printing the dreaded "%DECSYSTEM-20 not running" message when things
> hit the maximum load, followed by waiting for the system to restart
> and hoping your work in progress was saved recently.
>



-- 
4.4 > 5.4

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Thu Feb 11 18:08:28 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 01:08:28 +0100
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1455235708.2401.2.camel@agj.net>

tor 2016-02-11 klockan 13:41 -0800 skrev Glen Slick: 
> My memories from the early 1980s are of a room full of undergrads
> working on rows of VT100s (maybe 50+ at least?) on a DECSYSTEM-2065
> running TOPS-20.
> 
> Things usually seemed to run pretty well on that system, until the
> night before programming assignments were due.
> 
> Nothing quite like a room full of VT100s beeping in unison and
> printing the dreaded "%DECSYSTEM-20 not running" message when things
> hit the maximum load, followed by waiting for the system to restart
> and hoping your work in progress was saved recently.

I'm to young but in my case it was:
---
NFS server gandalf not responding, still trying
---

For the next two-thre-eight hours until the institutions admins
came and restarted the poor 4/490.

That poor NFS-server had Fujitsu IP-disks


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 11 19:39:18 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 19:39:18 -0600
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>

Guy wrote...
-----
In late '86 I was running a VAX8500 with 2 RA81s 
-----
Can't be true. There's no such thing as running RA81's *Grin*

J



From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb 11 20:14:51 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:14:51 -0600
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <56BD401B.1010006@pico-systems.com>

On 02/11/2016 10:56 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> >Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> >On 02/11/2016 08:56 AM, Mark Wickens wrote:
>>
>>> It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective 
>>> solution - there are
>>> too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I 
>>> imagine they
>>> primarily came after PCs started dropping in price.
>>
>> We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 
>> 11/780.  We had an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of 
>> memory.  It was a pretty basic system, but ran rings 
>> around the campus 360/65 system.  We also had a pair of 
>> 370/145's that were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran 
>> rings around BOTH of them.  They ran time sharing on 
>> them, limited to 4 users/machine.  We often had 8+ users 
>> plus batch jobs running on our 780.) 
>
> Any idea about the date of when VMS could do that with a VAX?
>
Well, the first VAX VMS should have been quite capable of 
doing good timesharing.  We may have had VMS 3.0 or 3.1 and 
then a number of updates.  I did not keep real good records, 
but I think we got the machine about 1980.  There was an 
earlier 11/780 at our Med School that also had a bunch of 
terminals on it.  I'm pretty sure they had more disks and 
memory on it than ours.  They got theirs in 1979, I think.  
The VAX was first announced in late 1977.
> I don't remember how expensive a Cyber 3300 was back in 
> 1967, but I
> worked at Northern Electric in Ottawa at the time.
>
OK, well, now that was a whole DECADE before the VAX.  The 
3300 was a discrete transistor machine, more than a full 
generation earlier than the VAX.
>
> The reason for this reply is to document that there were 
> already such
> systems available with very innovative software solutions 
> as far back
> as the 1970s.
Certainly, DEC had the PDP-10 and other companies had quite 
good timesharing systems.  I'm certainly not implying that 
nobody did timesharing before the VAX.  What I was 
contrasting is how expensive IBM 360's were, and how poorly 
they did at timesharing, than our VAX system.

Jon

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Feb 11 19:39:32 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:39:32 -0500
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <56BD37D4.6030500@compsys.to>

 >Rich Alderson wrote:

>From: Jerome H. Fine
>Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 8:56 AM
>
>>>Jon Elson wrote:
>>>
>>>We paid somewhere between 200 and 250K for our first 11/780.  We had 
>>>an RM05 and a TU77, and 256 KB of memory.  It was a pretty basic 
>>>system, but ran rings around the campus 360/65 system.  We also had a 
>>>pair of 370/145's that were an expensive joke.  (The 360/65 ran rings 
>>>around BOTH of them.  They ran time sharing on them, limited to 4 
>>>users/machine.  We often had 8+ users plus batch jobs running on our 
>>>780.) 
>>>
>>Any idea about the date of when VMS could do that with a VAX?
>>    
>>
>
>From the very beginning?  That is, 25 October 1977?
>  
>
Since your answer seems to be an unstated question, I will attempt to
answer what you might have inferred.  I was just attempting to note that
the CDC 3300 hardware was able to support that function more than a
DECADE earlier.  By 1967 when I arrived, the system had already been
running for quite a while in support of many engineers who required access
to a computer that avoided the punch card route followed by submitting
the cards to the batch queue - and waiting - and waiting.

Access to an editor to compose the file followed by immediate placement
into the job queue was a huge improvement in the mid 1960s.

>VMS was built from the get-go as a timesharing operating system with a
>virtual memory architecture.  It was not the best of such, nor was the
>hardware done particularly well (a VM system with no Page-Modified bit
>in hardware? seriously???), but it was certainly capable of handling
>that many users (and more, depending on job mix).
>  
>
Agreed!  But when you discuss the VAX and VMS, that is a decade later.
As long as the Cyber 3300 was able to get the job done in 1966, then a
quibble over implementation more than 10 years earlier seems a bit silly.

>So what was your question, really?
>  
>
I did not have a question!  You made your answer into a question
with your TWO question marks.

>[1] Other timesharing systems existed, yes, but they were RPQ add-ons to
>    standard batch-oriented hardware.  Timesharing was built in on the PDP-6
>    factory floor.
>  
>
If by factory floor, you mean where the hardware was built, then based
on 55 years of developing programs, I disagree.  "Timesharing", in my
opinion, is a result of the operating system software.  For example,
RT-11 running on a PDP-11/73 (or faster CPU) is certainly NOT
designed to be a timesharing operating system, although under very
specific conditions it can operate in that manner.  TSX-Plus will
execute on the identical hardware and have excellent performance
as a true timesharing operating system.

But the PDP-11 did not become the powerful computer that it
eventually became until at least about 1980.  When RSTS/E was
combined with that level of hardware, it was able to support
timesharing as well.  At this point when it is possible to run
RSTS/E on hardware that runs 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93,
staying with RSTS/E makes sense for applications that are still
basically the same after 30 years.

So, back to my original statement which comments on much praising
of a VAX supporting editing sessions (along with running the programs
which were produced) around the mid 1970s.  I doubt that the original
1.0 VMS handled timesharing very well.  So I don't believe it was
unreasonable to make a statement that the same functions were available
more than a DECADE previously on a Cyber 3300 even though, as
you point out, the operating system in the mid 1960s was probably still
at the level of RT-11 as opposed to TSX-Plus.

I don't remember if the Cyber 3300 hardware even survived more than
10 years, but I suspect if it did, then by the mid 1970s it would have also
evolved into something that was much better than 10 years earlier.

Jerome Fine

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 11 21:17:55 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 19:17:55 -0800
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <56BD37D4.6030500@compsys.to>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <56BD37D4.6030500@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <56BD4EE3.5070500@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2016 05:39 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> Since your answer seems to be an unstated question, I will attempt to
> answer what you might have inferred.  I was just attempting to note that
> the CDC 3300 hardware was able to support that function more than a
> DECADE earlier.  By 1967 when I arrived, the system had already been
> running for quite a while in support of many engineers who required access
> to a computer that avoided the punch card route followed by submitting
> the cards to the batch queue - and waiting - and waiting.

Don't forget the GE600-series, in particular the 635 and 645.  Supported 
DTSS and the virtual memory 645 running MULTICS.

--Chuck


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 00:45:40 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 01:45:40 -0500
Subject: Emulex QD32 Format Program
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDd4F=3y8z=6-4TmUms3DTg9O9Ks7VQUY3DwsRoC0kWSg@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone still have a copy of the "Emulex LSI/PDP MSCP Formatter Program
(SXMX8B) ?  My QD32 emerged from storage in a foul mood and is giving me
errors I don't understand when I use the manual entry methods for inputting
geometry and issuing a format.  From what I can tell, it's complaining that
its onboard RAM is bad.  Comments / suggestions welcome.

thx
jake

From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Fri Feb 12 07:25:53 2016
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 00:25:53 +1100
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <43ED03C6-FB49-4A5F-815F-849164604925@kerberos.davies.net.au>


> On 12 Feb 2016, at 06:48, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
> 
> DEC was the first company to build timeshared large systems as standard[1],
> beginning with the PDP-6.  The PDP-10 (a reimplementation of the PDP-6) was
> successful enough to go through 3 generations (renamed to DECsystem-10 and
> DECSYSTEM-20) of market success, enough to inspire 2 research labs (Xerox
> PARC and Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) and 3 manufacturers
> (Foonly, Systems Concepts, and XKL) to design and, except for SAIL[2], to
> build clones.  The PDP-6 came out in 1964, the PDP-10 in 1967 (KA-10), with
> later members of the family in 1971 (KI-10), 1974 (KL-10), and 1979 (KS-10).
> All of them were capable of handling up to 100 users.

Thanks for getting the case correct for DECsystem-10 and that other one :-)

When I started managing VAX/VMS on an 11/780 we had two RM03 disk drives and 1.25MB of memory supporting 16 users. It was really important to get more than 1MB of memory to ensure that you got the larger memory boards that would allow expansion to 2 (4?) MB.

ISTR that with educational discount our 11/780 cost about AUD$250K in 1982.

I guess I?m lucky in that I still manage OpenVMS systems today 30+ years later?

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Fri Feb 12 07:30:49 2016
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 00:30:49 +1100
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CE6CC3F2-86EF-4138-9224-48A3FF74626C@kerberos.davies.net.au>


> On 12 Feb 2016, at 12:39, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Guy wrote...
> -----
> In late '86 I was running a VAX8500 with 2 RA81s 
> -----
> Can't be true. There's no such thing as running RA81's *Grin*

My comments regarding RA81s run something like ?we purchased two of the first RA81s in Australia but ran about 15 of the first 100 shipped?. My FS guy and I could replace an RA81 HDA in 15 minutes - we had lots of practice - I think we replaced 10 or 15 in six months :-(

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 12 07:45:22 2016
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 05:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602120544490.22699@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Jay West wrote:

> Guy wrote...
> -----
> In late '86 I was running a VAX8500 with 2 RA81s
> -----
> Can't be true. There's no such thing as running RA81's *Grin*
>
Don't laugh.  in 1993 I was running FOUR of them connected to a VAX 8250. 
In my house.  Upstairs. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Fri Feb 12 11:09:51 2016
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 18:09:51 +0100
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
Message-ID: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>


On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued PDP11/04 fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a

This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A ) than the PDP11/04....


Jos

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Fri Feb 12 12:29:57 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 18:29:57 +0000
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <D2E3D525.52005%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

> 
> On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued PDP11/04
> fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a
> 
> This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A ) than the
> PDP11/04....

Nice! That's one way I'd happily accept being in a smaller room.

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 12 14:05:45 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 21:05:45 +0100
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jos Dreesen
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 6:09 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....

On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued PDP11/04 
fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a
This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A ) than 
the PDP11/04....

Jos

---------
Impressive collection of great machines!
My apologies for not recognizing the "pride_of_collection". Tell about it.
I have been looking for years to grab a few of those "low racks" that
can hold 4 10.5" boxes. I have a few H960 racks (for 6 10.5" boxes),
but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ???

Very nice room!
- Henk


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb 12 14:33:14 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 14:33:14 -0600
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000401d165d4$99107600$cb316200$@classiccmp.org>

No, the "pride of the collection" must be the HP calculator on top ;)

J



From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 14:45:09 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:45:09 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <24FDEC6A-8376-43D0-A4EA-DBF79D8EC644@gmail.com>

Thanks for the details. Seems like the goldilocks unit, and of course one that I can't find any documentation for. Can you confirm it can read and write 9 track formats in PE 1600 cpi?
Marc

> On Feb 11, 2016, at 2:28 AM, Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016, CuriousMarc wrote:
>>> Note that Christian Corti stated that his drive is capable of 9-track
>> operation.  That's an E.
> 
> It is not an E.
> 
>>> (Apparently that will also write 9-track PE at 1600bpi, but it will write
>> 9-track NRZI at 800bpi).
> 
> I would know that ;-)
> 
>> Interesting. So what model do you think he has? For example, from the manual
> [...]
>> That's why I thought he had a 7970A or a 7970B (-136), that can read and
>> write 200, 556 and 800 NRZI. This would match all the front panel buttons we
> [...]
> 
> I have a 7970B (-236) with options 127, 006, 007, 012 and 023.
> 
> More and better pictures are here now:
> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/7970/
> 
> Christian

From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch  Fri Feb 12 14:53:24 2016
From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 21:53:24 +0100
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>


>
> ---------
> Impressive collection of great machines!

A mere token effort, compared to yours !

> My apologies for not recognizing the "pride_of_collection". Tell about it.

Diser/ETH Lilith modula 2 machine.
Boring exterior, very interesting inside & software wise.

> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ???

No labels to be found on the rack..

Jos

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 15:03:40 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:03:40 -0500
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
 <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn=ApjnWRD6xdDoE7X-wr98CqLcTMUaUTmr1YP2W=ewoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Jos Dreesen <jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>> Impressive collection of great machines!
>
>> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ???
>
> No labels to be found on the rack..

I have one of those racks (with the maroon PDP-11 top plate; it came
to me with a PDP-11/34 and TS03 in it) but I don't remember the name
off the top of my head.  ISTR mine has a label with the original
system designation for how it was shipped from DEC, but the whole
system, not the part of the empty rack.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 15:19:44 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:19:44 -0500
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn=ApjnWRD6xdDoE7X-wr98CqLcTMUaUTmr1YP2W=ewoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
 <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
 <CAALmimn=ApjnWRD6xdDoE7X-wr98CqLcTMUaUTmr1YP2W=ewoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm3wrTdmUYJyneHsr1GK4hYc6m7AtFhJf87D71M+YWeuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Jos Dreesen <jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>> Impressive collection of great machines!
>>
>>> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ???
>>
>> No labels to be found on the rack..
>
> I have one of those racks...

According to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/catalogs/OEM_Hardware_and_Software_Product_Summary_Oct76.pdf
(page 42)
it might be the H967.

-ethan

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Feb 12 15:27:41 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:27:41 -0500
Subject: Diser/ETH Lilith - was Re: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl> <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <56BE4E4D.8070100@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-12 3:53 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>
>>
>> ---------
>> Impressive collection of great machines!
>
> A mere token effort, compared to yours !
>
>> My apologies for not recognizing the "pride_of_collection". Tell about
>> it.
>
> Diser/ETH Lilith modula 2 machine.
> Boring exterior, very interesting inside & software wise.

That is a real gem. I've only ever seen the chassis inside a glass case 
at ETH. Want to tell us more about yours? Does it run?

--Toby


>
>> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ???
>
> No labels to be found on the rack..
>
> Jos
>


From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch  Fri Feb 12 15:40:19 2016
From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 22:40:19 +0100
Subject: Diser/ETH Lilith - was Re: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE4E4D.8070100@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl> <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
 <56BE4E4D.8070100@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <56BE5143.8030306@bluewin.ch>


>>
>> Diser/ETH Lilith modula 2 machine.
>> Boring exterior, very interesting inside & software wise.
>
> That is a real gem. I've only ever seen the chassis inside a glass case at ETH. Want to tell us more about yours? Does it run?

It used to run, until I broke it during VCFe in 2014......
They were sold for a token amount after the ETH decomissioned them, most have been trashed after they stoppped working

It will run again one day, just needs some serious time invested.
All documentation is there, I have the emulator as a reference, just lacking time.

Jos


From guy at cuillin.org.uk  Fri Feb 12 15:58:25 2016
From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 21:58:25 +0000
Subject: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
In-Reply-To: <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAALmimnJiRbrS8aSBgcJtdRo4SyyLeWwvnwnc+QxxfZ+aGkQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue8cJ8ypFq4=tHLYt707t0yL8HnT0HOhY=6ekQdMngysA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmu7scOzKap2hH1vixD8worT-4ax7_G7ros+xDWsDFmrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABp7FHXWmefVsKpBarLKKgE__nTLb65ANm16KM5FjkdMZwF5VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BCB822.9010908@pico-systems.com> <56BCBD23.7040809@compsys.to>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAD404@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <2BD2B41F-1743-4C3F-B780-6CF71C668259@comcast.net>
 <CANij+dc7aZ0RsFLiWD+qqR2DMqGp0j3RtQgTeckMHTy8g+=Lpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6AA55F25-AFF6-4BB2-8C80-6B3B25ABE75D@shiresoft.com>
 <CAM2UOwJE=G_JW8EPuVaiwwegGhf33eA_AfLeAZRd4cdbLZnsjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVb+LLt2v4tf-UZ1tNnPA-PPuk+ExAQWyt2QecvYLCBrRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d16536$30ecce00$92c66a00$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAE11GVZ-VcJz0zJYqaNchSBjXgyP=gduSaB7PFjQhVcmS4Himg@mail.gmail.com>

There's a reason why we ran the RA81s in pairs in the cluster...

On 12 February 2016 at 01:39, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Guy wrote...
> -----
> In late '86 I was running a VAX8500 with 2 RA81s
> -----
> Can't be true. There's no such thing as running RA81's *Grin*
>
> J
>
>
>


-- 
4.4 > 5.4

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb 12 17:08:39 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 17:08:39 -0600
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm3wrTdmUYJyneHsr1GK4hYc6m7AtFhJf87D71M+YWeuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl> <56BE4644.6030503@bluewin.ch>
 <CAALmimn=ApjnWRD6xdDoE7X-wr98CqLcTMUaUTmr1YP2W=ewoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimm3wrTdmUYJyneHsr1GK4hYc6m7AtFhJf87D71M+YWeuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401d165ea$4f9e92c0$eedbb840$@classiccmp.org>

Ethan wrote...
-------
According to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/catalogs/OEM_Hardware_and_Software_Product_Summary_Oct76.pdf
(page 42)
it might be the H967.
---------
If memory serves, that's correct. I have 3 of them.  Two of them have the "PDP-8E Mustard Yellow" color. One of those two has the controls and indicator lights for the TU10 on that sloped area at the top.

The last one... some "person" spraypainted the top beveled area white (so can't tell if it was the pdp8 mustard yellow or the PDP11 magenta), and then stuffed a DG Nova in the rack.

J



From echristopherson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 22:29:32 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 22:29:32 -0600
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CADyB93AOXHEfc8qt8J3xiE6eksA3c7nEkmXCHZO9fcyrpyiRgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2016 11:10 AM, "Jos Dreesen" <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>
> On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued
PDP11/04 fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a
>
> This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A )
than the PDP11/04....
>
>
> Jos

I'm just getting a Synology page-not-found page.

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 22:40:18 2016
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 20:40:18 -0800
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93AOXHEfc8qt8J3xiE6eksA3c7nEkmXCHZO9fcyrpyiRgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <CADyB93AOXHEfc8qt8J3xiE6eksA3c7nEkmXCHZO9fcyrpyiRgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LTOm813ous8EBspo=QSuoM4RqdJJEMu8s6CsAHHZi5LfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Eric Christopherson <
echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 12, 2016 11:10 AM, "Jos Dreesen" <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued
> PDP11/04 fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a
> >
> > This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A )
> than the PDP11/04....
> >
> >
> > Jos
>
> I'm just getting a Synology page-not-found page.
>

Try ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11  (It's marked as an HTTP link, but's it
really an FTP.

-- Charles

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Fri Feb 12 23:26:03 2016
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 22:26:03 -0700
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <05be01d16397$9195cc20$b4c16460$@gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <05be01d16397$9195cc20$b4c16460$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBpNKpv1cG3jymkmT47qjHCTZ=b325MVZzCnRFqSRh1Bg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your opinion on compatibility.  I talked to a friend that is a
career IBMer and learned the support disks are 1.2MB floppies that go in
the 2nd drive and are trivially created and imaged with PC/AT drives.

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is not 100% compatible with a 3174, it does not run 3174 microcode, it
> will not accept 3174 config files. It has 3.5" disk drives. IMHO that?s not
> 100% compatible.
>
> It does look like a 3714 to the mainframe and so the mainframe can't tell
> the difference.
>
> That?s not to say its not possible to load the 3190 DSL code BUT the
> Memorex controllers were often used with Memorex Telex terminals (I have
> one here) so it may be 3190 DSL doesn't.
>
> On the other hand I would expect it to support 317x Graphics terminals
> which also had a DSL disk so there is hope...
>
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> > Bowling
> > Sent: 09 February 2016 20:09
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> >
> > It's 100% compatible to 3174, it just sends a bitstream down to the
> terminal.
> > If somebody can send me the image that may help eventually.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The controller Kevin has is a Memorex/Telex (well the firm that they
> > > became) so the 3174 DSL Microcode may not be appropriate. If I
> > > remember properly the Memorex/Telex units also wanted 3.5" diskettes...
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > G4UGM
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > > > Mike
> > > Ross
> > > > Sent: 09 February 2016 10:13
> > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> > > >
> > > > The 3290 plasma panel? It's not for sale but I do have one - and
> > > > more importantly the critical DSL diskette the 3174 needs in order
> > > > for it to
> > > work. It's
> > > > the only one I've ever seen' good luck; you'll need it!
> > > > If you do get one and need the DSL code let me know and we'll work
> > > > something out.
> > > >
> > > > Funny you should mention that; I just tried to fire it up for the
> > > > first
> > > time in...
> > > > at least 5 years I think - just last week. SMPSU issues; the PSU
> > > > starts
> > > and
> > > > immediately shuts down - whether or not there's a load on it. Dunno
> > > > if
> > > it's
> > > > crowbarring or what. Thing is in bits on the bench right now. I have
> > > > no schematics so don't anticipate a quick fix. Also it's a 3rd party
> > > > PSU
> > > IBM bought
> > > > in - made in China IIRC.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:23 PM, Kevin Bowling
> > > > <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
> > > > > I'm looking for an IBM 3290 to complement my z800 mainframe and
> > > > > third party 3174-22L establishment controller.  I can't imagine
> > > > > these were particularly rare, but am sure many of them have been
> > > > > destroyed in the waning years since it takes special
> > > > > equipment/know how/desire to even use.  Any leads on on for a
> > reasonable price?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Kevin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > http://www.corestore.org
> > > > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his
> brother.
> > > > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > > > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> > >
> > >
>
>

From connork at connorsdomain.com  Fri Feb 12 23:42:09 2016
From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 00:42:09 -0500
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <000d01d1644e$86581040$930830c0$@net>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d1644e$86581040$930830c0$@net>
Message-ID: <56BEC231.6070602@connorsdomain.com>

On 2/10/2016 5:00 PM, Ali wrote:
> BUT will it run Doom ;)?
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist...
>
> -Ali

While I am not sure about Doom, it will not run a Quake or Unreal 
Tournament server since they have x86 binaries in them.
I learned this while trying to compile source on my z890 under SuSE.
I've seen that machine up for quite awhile so I'd hope they would take a 
lot less.

But if your on the west coast there is this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182005897801
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172079906457
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182011477001

They recently reduced each piece from 800 to 500 so they may even take 
less. I assume its taking up too much space for them hah.
Its nice you can get a DASD unit too, and while it doesn't have drives 
the drives should be fairly cheap.
Also a tape library if you want.

Just an obvious warning that the z890 weighs like 1500lbs or so, not the 
easiest thing to move, but fun once you have it up and running :)

-Connor K

From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri Feb 12 14:49:59 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:49:59 -0800
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <000401d165d4$99107600$cb316200$@classiccmp.org>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <DUB112-DS162A1DBA8E955535C64B7886A90@phx.gbl>
 <000401d165d4$99107600$cb316200$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u88+d4PE=7Whtd3qnpuQMLRDkgEdMHH5Cwun+Vg1dg=+A@mail.gmail.com>

Clicking on the link gets me: Sorry, the page you are looking for is not
found.

cut/patse and trying as a fto server times out



On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> No, the "pride of the collection" must be the HP calculator on top ;)
>
> J
>
>
>
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 17:32:29 2016
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 18:32:29 -0500
Subject: Stuck bits on 11/73 Clearpoint 4MB memory - how to repair?
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
    Seems I have bits 4 and 3 sticking on my Clearpoint QRAM-2-SAB-1 88b
4MB memory in my pdp11/73.

    Can anyone offer hints as to how to identify which component is broken
and how to go about repairing this?

    It's the only memory board in this machine, so I guess the problem
might actually be a bus or processor board, right?  I have no other q-bus
memory to test with, so can't do swapping / process of elimination to be
sure.

    Here's the manual:
http://www.arclightindustries.com/docs/Clearpoint-88B.pdf (which I probably
should add to manx or archive.org or something).

    Here's a snippet of the VMJA diags run illustrating bits 4 and 3
sticking.  During the next VMJA run, all addresses were showing up as
errored instead of just the ones ending in xxx000xx, so I guess it's
getting worse!

@173000g

                              Starting system
BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR

XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
REVISION: F0
BOOTED FROM DL0
124KW OF MEMORY
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
TYPE "H" FOR HELP !

.R VMJA??
VMJAB0.BIC

 CVMJAB0  ECC/PARITY MEMORY DIAGNOSTIC
   11/83 CACHE AVAILABLE
SWR = 000000  NEW = 000040


               CSR MAP

CSR     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F
MEMTYPE P


CSR NUMBER 0 CONTROLS TOO MANY BANKS
  2044K OF Q-BUS PARITY MEMORY
  2044K WORDS OF MEMORY TOTAL

                        MEMORY CONFIGURATION MAP
                             16K WORD BANKS
                1       2       3       4       5       6       7
        012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123
ERRORS
MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
PROTECT PP
            1       1       1       1       1       1       1
            0       1       2       3       4       5       6
        456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567
ERRORS
MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
PROTECT
        1
        7
        01234567
ERRORS
MEMTYPE PPPPPPPP
CSR     00000000
PROTECT
MEMORY DATA ERROR
  PC    BANK  VADD     PADD     GOOD     BAD     XOR  CSR  MTYP INT PAT

027606   10  060000  01000000  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
027606   10  060002  01000002  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
027606   10  060004  01000004  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
027606   10  060006  01000006  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
027606   10  060010  01000010  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
027606   11  060000  01100000  000011  000031  000020  0     P       27
027606   11  060002  01100002  000011  000031  000020  0     P       27
027606   11  060004  01100004  000011  000031  000020  0     P       27
027606   11  060006  01100006  000011  000031  000020  0     P       27
027606   11  060010  01100010  000011  000031  000020  0     P       27
027606   12  060000  01200000  000012  000032  000020  0     P       27
027606   12  060002  01200002  000012  000032  000020  0     P       27
027606   12  060004  01200004  000012  000032  000020  0     P       27
027606   12  060006  01200006  000012  000032  000020  0     P       27
027606   12  060010  01200010  000012  000032  000020  0     P       27
027606   13  060000  01300000  000013  000033  000020  0     P       27
027606   13  060002  01300002  000013  000033  000020  0     P       27
027606   13  060004  01300004  000013  000033  000020  0     P       27
027606   13  060006  01300006  000013  000033  000020  0     P       27
027606   13  060010  01300010  000013  000033  000020  0     P       27
027606   14  060000  01400000  000014  000034  000020  0     P       27
027606   14  060002  01400002  000014  000034  000020  0     P       27
027606   14  060004  01400004  000014  000034  000020  0     P       27
027606   14  060006  01400006  000014  000034  000020  0     P       27
027606   14  060010  01400010  000014  000034  000020  0     P       27
027606   15  060000  01500000  000015  000035  000020  0     P       27
027606   15  060002  01500002  000015  000035  000020  0     P       27
027606   15  060004  01500004  000015  000035  000020  0     P       27
027606   15  060006  01500006  000015  000035  000020  0     P       27
027606   15  060010  01500010  000015  000035  000020  0     P       27
027606   16  060000  01600000  000016  000036  000020  0     P       27
027606   16  060002  01600002  000016  000036  000020  0     P       27
027606   16  060004  01600004  000016  000036  000020  0     P       27
027606   16  060006  01600006  000016  000036  000020  0     P       27
027606   16  060010  01600010  000016  000036  000020  0     P       27
027606   17  060000  01700000  000017  000037  000020  0     P       27
027606   17  060002  01700002  000017  000037  000020  0     P       27
027606   17  060004  01700004  000017  000037  000020  0     P       27
027606   17  060006  01700006  000017  000037  000020  0     P       27
027606   17  060010  01700010  000017  000037  000020  0     P       27
027606   20  060000  02000000  000020  000030  000010  0     P       27
027606   20  060002  02000002  000020  000030  000010  0     P       27
027606   20  060004  02000004  000020  000030  000010  0     P       27
027606   20  060006  02000006  000020  000030  000010  0     P       27
027606   20  060010  02000010  000020  000030  000010  0     P       27
027606   21  060000  02100000  000021  000031  000010  0     P       27
027606   21  060002  02100002  000021  000031  000010  0     P       27
027606   21  060004  02100004  000021  000031  000010  0     P       27
027606   21  060006  02100006  000021  000031  000010  0     P       27
027606   21  060010  02100010  000021  000031  000010  0     P       27
027606   22  060000  02200000  000022  000032  000010  0     P       27
027606   22  060002  02200002  000022  000032  000010  0     P       27
027606   22  060004  02200004  000022  000032  000010  0     P       27
027606   22  060006  02200006  000022  000032  000010  0     P       27
027606   22  060010  02200010  000022  000032  000010  0     P       27
027606   23  060000  02300000  000023  000033  000010  0     P       27
027606   23  060002  02300002  000023  000033  000010  0     P       27
027606   23  060004  02300004  000023  000033  000010  0     P       27
027606   23  060006  02300006  000023  000033  000010  0     P       27
027606   23  060010  02300010  000023  000033  000010  0     P       27
027606   24  060000  02400000  000024  000034  000010  0     P       27
027606   24  060002  02400002  000024  000034  000010  0     P       27
027606   24  060004  02400004  000024  000034  000010  0     P       27
027606   24  060006  02400006  000024  000034  000010  0     P       27
027606   24  060010  02400010  000024  000034  000010  0     P       27
027606   25  060000  02500000  000025  000035  000010  0     P       27
027606   25  060002  02500002  000025  000035  000010  0     P       27
027606   25  060004  02500004  000025  000035  000010  0     P       27
027606   25  060006  02500006  000025  000035  000010  0     P       27
027606   25  060010  02500010  000025  000035  000010  0     P       27
027606   26  060000  02600000  000026  000036  000010  0     P       27
027606   26  060002  02600002  000026  000036  000010  0     P       27
027606   26  060004  02600004  000026  000036  000010  0     P       27
027606   26  060006  02600006  000026  000036  000010  0     P       27
027606   26  060010  02600010  000026  000036  000010  0     P       27
027606   27  060000  02700000  000027  000037  000010  0     P       27
027606   27  060002  02700002  000027  000037  000010  0     P       27
027606   27  060004  02700004  000027  000037  000010  0     P       27
027606   27  060006  02700006  000027  000037  000010  0     P       27
027606   27  060010  02700010  000027  000037  000010  0     P       27
027606   30  060000  03000000  177747  177767  000020  0     P       27
027606   30  060002  03000002  177747  177767  000020  0     P       27
027606   30  060004  03000004  177747  177767  000020  0     P       27
027606   30  060006  03000006  177747  177767  000020  0     P       27
027606   30  060010  03000010  177747  177767  000020  0     P       27
027606   31  060000  03100000  177746  177766  000020  0     P       27
027606   31  060002  03100002  177746  177766  000020  0     P       27
027606   31  060004  03100004  177746  177766  000020  0     P       27
027606   31  060006  03100006  177746  177766  000020  0     P       27
027606   31  060010  03100010  177746  177766  000020  0     P       27
027606   32  06000

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 20:32:10 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 18:32:10 -0800
Subject: Stuck bits on 11/73 Clearpoint 4MB memory - how to repair?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL4ahcpYjraZVZWWzGrZ3yDvtpnPO-=bZHx+eYjuKufAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>     Seems I have bits 4 and 3 sticking on my Clearpoint QRAM-2-SAB-1 88b
> 4MB memory in my pdp11/73.
>
>     Can anyone offer hints as to how to identify which component is broken
> and how to go about repairing this?

Are the 256Kx1 DRAM chips in sockets? If they are it shouldn't be too
hard to come up with a scheme for exchanging some of the DRAM chips to
see if the stuck bits move and then work out which chip positions map
to which bits and then which DRAM chips need to be replaced.

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Feb 12 20:55:44 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 20:55:44 -0600
Subject: Stuck bits on 11/73 Clearpoint 4MB memory - how to repair?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56BE9B30.1060302@charter.net>

On 2/12/2016 5:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> Hi,
>     Seems I have bits 4 and 3 sticking on my Clearpoint QRAM-2-SAB-1 88b
> 4MB memory in my pdp11/73.
> 
>     Can anyone offer hints as to how to identify which component is broken
> and how to go about repairing this?
> 
>     It's the only memory board in this machine, so I guess the problem
> might actually be a bus or processor board, right?  I have no other q-bus
> memory to test with, so can't do swapping / process of elimination to be
> sure.
> 
>     Here's the manual:
> http://www.arclightindustries.com/docs/Clearpoint-88B.pdf (which I probably
> should add to manx or archive.org or something).
> 
>     Here's a snippet of the VMJA diags run illustrating bits 4 and 3
> sticking.  During the next VMJA run, all addresses were showing up as
> errored instead of just the ones ending in xxx000xx, so I guess it's
> getting worse!
> 
> @173000g
> 
>                               Starting system
> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR
> 
> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
> REVISION: F0
> BOOTED FROM DL0
> 124KW OF MEMORY
> NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM
> 
> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
> TYPE "H" FOR HELP !
> 
> .R VMJA??
> VMJAB0.BIC
> 
>  CVMJAB0  ECC/PARITY MEMORY DIAGNOSTIC
>    11/83 CACHE AVAILABLE
> SWR = 000000  NEW = 000040
> 
> 
>                CSR MAP
> 
> CSR     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F
> MEMTYPE P
> 
> 
> CSR NUMBER 0 CONTROLS TOO MANY BANKS
>   2044K OF Q-BUS PARITY MEMORY
>   2044K WORDS OF MEMORY TOTAL
> 
>                         MEMORY CONFIGURATION MAP
>                              16K WORD BANKS
>                 1       2       3       4       5       6       7
>         012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123
> ERRORS
> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
> CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> PROTECT PP
>             1       1       1       1       1       1       1
>             0       1       2       3       4       5       6
>         456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567
> ERRORS
> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
> CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> PROTECT
>         1
>         7
>         01234567
> ERRORS
> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPP
> CSR     00000000
> PROTECT
> MEMORY DATA ERROR
>   PC    BANK  VADD     PADD     GOOD     BAD     XOR  CSR  MTYP INT PAT
> 
> 027606   10  060000  01000000  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
> 027606   10  060002  01000002  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
> 027606   10  060004  01000004  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
> 027606   10  060006  01000006  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
> 027606   10  060010  01000010  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27

<< SNIP >>

Well clearly it is only affecting certain address bits - or the
diagnostic would not run at all - note that it is starting at 010000000,
 so that points to the memory, rather than the processor or bus, at
least as a first approximation.  No guarantees, but I'd sure start with
that as a working theory.

Another sign: this is right at the boundary between two rows.

If you can't find a schematic, you can use the address to identify the
address lines on the bus (See Table 3, page 1-5), and trace them on the
board to find the relevant row of chips.  Then use the bits the same way
to identify the specific chips.

If the chips are in sockets, you could always pull them one at a time to
find the relevant place in the array, as well.

I expect this is not the issue, but, one has to ask these things, just
in case.  Did this memory work before? I ask because this is the 19th
bit. If the backplane is a Q18 backplane, that might be a problem?
Along those same lines, make sure that jumper P07 is positioned
correctly for a 22 bit address, and that P05 and P06 are set correctly
for the memory size.

Are you seeing the parity error light when this occurs?

Anyway, once the relevant chip(s) are identified, if they are in sockets
you can swap them with other bits or the same bits in other rows to
confirm.  Otherwise you get to unsolder the suspects, and put in new ones.

JRJ

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sat Feb 13 06:20:42 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 13:20:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <24FDEC6A-8376-43D0-A4EA-DBF79D8EC644@gmail.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <24FDEC6A-8376-43D0-A4EA-DBF79D8EC644@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131313140.14708@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 12 Feb 2016, Curious Marc wrote:
> Can you confirm it can read and write 9 track formats in PE 1600 cpi?

Was there ever a 7970B with PE? I have the manual matching this unit 
(serial number is marked on the cover page) and there's no mention of PE 
AFAIK. It's the 1971 version of the 7970B/C manual, the drive is from 
1971, too.
What I know is that I can read and write 800bpi 9 track tapes. I've not 
tried the other densities, yet.

Christian

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sat Feb 13 06:33:27 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 13:33:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Christian Corti wrote:
> I have a 7970B (-236) with options 127, 006, 007, 012 and 023.

According to the HP 1000 Peripherals Selection Guide from 1982, page 16, 
option 236 specifies an 800bpi master magnetic tape subsystem with one 
drive and two-card 13181B interface.

And you can't mix 800 and 1600 bpi on the same interface for the HP 1000. 
You need either the 13181 for NRZI, or the 13183 for PE.

So, apparently my NRZI 9 track drive has the density option included, and 
I don't know if there were any other 200/556 bpi 9 track drives out 
there. When we got the drive I had hoped it would be a 7 track drive, but 
it isn't.

Christian

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Feb 13 09:31:29 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 15:31:29 -0000
Subject: IBM 3290 terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBpNKpv1cG3jymkmT47qjHCTZ=b325MVZzCnRFqSRh1Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCKEVZVMif+UYfRMVb1o8yhi2cujUyCHqcd3RVmDrTGQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOdpEP4gFzWdQNTsxBW-UcJLfHiWOp6dy4GUzhS4DomTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <030501d1635c$aa9e7ef0$ffdb7cd0$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtDnKTJ1f-NjbtECh6YOadhHqtTJcUv_gi8DnuZ5RbBhSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <05be01d16397$9195cc20$b4c16460$@gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtBpNKpv1cG3jymkmT47qjHCTZ=b325MVZzCnRFqSRh1Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <083b01d16673$9d0a1190$d71e34b0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Bowling
> Sent: 13 February 2016 05:26
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 3290 terminal
> 
> Thanks for your opinion on compatibility.  I talked to a friend that is a career
> IBMer and learned the support disks are 1.2MB floppies that go in the 2nd
> drive and are trivially created and imaged with PC/AT drives.

Can you just copy them to a 1.44 3.5" disk then and pop in the Memorex. I know the Memorex Disks are DOS compatible as I have some but the controller they went with was long gone when I acquired them...

> 
> Regards,
> Kevin
> 

Dave
G4UGM


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sat Feb 13 14:52:59 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 14:52:59 -0600
Subject: pdp11/04 : the pics....
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LTOm813ous8EBspo=QSuoM4RqdJJEMu8s6CsAHHZi5LfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BE11DF.4080603@bluewin.ch>
 <CADyB93AOXHEfc8qt8J3xiE6eksA3c7nEkmXCHZO9fcyrpyiRgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANV78LTOm813ous8EBspo=QSuoM4RqdJJEMu8s6CsAHHZi5LfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160213205258.GA1862@gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016, Charles Anthony wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Eric Christopherson <
> echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 12, 2016 11:10 AM, "Jos Dreesen" <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11 you can find some pics on how the rescued
> > PDP11/04 fits right in next to its cousin, a PDP8/a
> > >
> > > This 8a, BTW, has more memory (128K x 12)  and more oomph ( a FPP8A )
> > than the PDP11/04....
> > >
> > >
> > > Jos
> >
> > I'm just getting a Synology page-not-found page.
> >
> 
> Try ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/PDP11  (It's marked as an HTTP link, but's it
> really an FTP.

Oh, yes. I didn't see that the URL had no explicit protocol part. Should
have tried that.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From christopher1400 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 13 23:45:08 2016
From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 21:45:08 -0800
Subject: IBM System z9 available near Ann Arbor, MI
In-Reply-To: <56BEC231.6070602@connorsdomain.com>
References: <CAA43vkX7=UiFehHoWA2Rf3hGtpTSoKm4XKyaMEj7JfeK9A8SiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D7E76B3-7258-4448-A54D-58B681B4A481@gmail.com>
 <CAJ_iqtYMux6s6Dx27MMhdJZcZ5qFDMf9sXo_fOru-2F7gWj9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dci8REEra1xGmxurePK4WdNC+SC+CCHxw10xUGL2O7rgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d1644e$86581040$930830c0$@net> <56BEC231.6070602@connorsdomain.com>
Message-ID: <CAN9sufKTQrMRqGvkzKBa7SbftrDFb=c2mHWqzaZBTZag5eSEQQ@mail.gmail.com>

There's another z9 in Vancouver, WA. Has two tape drives with it as well,
but starting bid is $1200.
http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=1542011

From jrr at flippers.com  Sat Feb 13 09:53:51 2016
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 07:53:51 -0800
Subject: Stuck bits on 11/73 Clearpoint 4MB memory - how to repair?
In-Reply-To: <56BE9B30.1060302@charter.net>
References: <CAHYQbfD124mfSBbdmf8fmFJKzb7Qxx6-aC9Vj6VMh-2NrH0iWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56BE9B30.1060302@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56BF518E.9080608@flippers.com>

On 02/12/2016 6:55 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> On 2/12/2016 5:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>> Hi,
>>      Seems I have bits 4 and 3 sticking on my Clearpoint QRAM-2-SAB-1 88b
>> 4MB memory in my pdp11/73.
>>
>>      Can anyone offer hints as to how to identify which component is broken
>> and how to go about repairing this?
>>
>>      It's the only memory board in this machine, so I guess the problem
>> might actually be a bus or processor board, right?  I have no other q-bus
>> memory to test with, so can't do swapping / process of elimination to be
>> sure.
>>
>>      Here's the manual:
>> http://www.arclightindustries.com/docs/Clearpoint-88B.pdf (which I probably
>> should add to manx or archive.org or something).
>>
>>      Here's a snippet of the VMJA diags run illustrating bits 4 and 3
>> sticking.  During the next VMJA run, all addresses were showing up as
>> errored instead of just the ones ending in xxx000xx, so I guess it's
>> getting worse!
>>
>> @173000g
>>
>>                                Starting system
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR
>>
>> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
>> REVISION: F0
>> BOOTED FROM DL0
>> 124KW OF MEMORY
>> NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP !
>>
>> .R VMJA??
>> VMJAB0.BIC
>>
>>   CVMJAB0  ECC/PARITY MEMORY DIAGNOSTIC
>>     11/83 CACHE AVAILABLE
>> SWR = 000000  NEW = 000040
>>
>>
>>                 CSR MAP
>>
>> CSR     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F
>> MEMTYPE P
>>
>>
>> CSR NUMBER 0 CONTROLS TOO MANY BANKS
>>    2044K OF Q-BUS PARITY MEMORY
>>    2044K WORDS OF MEMORY TOTAL
>>
>>                          MEMORY CONFIGURATION MAP
>>                               16K WORD BANKS
>>                  1       2       3       4       5       6       7
>>          012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123
>> ERRORS
>> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
>> CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
>> PROTECT PP
>>              1       1       1       1       1       1       1
>>              0       1       2       3       4       5       6
>>          456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567
>> ERRORS
>> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
>> CSR     000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
>> PROTECT
>>          1
>>          7
>>          01234567
>> ERRORS
>> MEMTYPE PPPPPPPP
>> CSR     00000000
>> PROTECT
>> MEMORY DATA ERROR
>>    PC    BANK  VADD     PADD     GOOD     BAD     XOR  CSR  MTYP INT PAT
>>
>> 027606   10  060000  01000000  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
>> 027606   10  060002  01000002  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
>> 027606   10  060004  01000004  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
>> 027606   10  060006  01000006  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
>> 027606   10  060010  01000010  000010  000030  000020  0     P       27
> << SNIP >>
>
> Well clearly it is only affecting certain address bits - or the
> diagnostic would not run at all - note that it is starting at 010000000,
>   so that points to the memory, rather than the processor or bus, at
> least as a first approximation.  No guarantees, but I'd sure start with
> that as a working theory.
>
> Another sign: this is right at the boundary between two rows.
>
> If you can't find a schematic, you can use the address to identify the
> address lines on the bus (See Table 3, page 1-5), and trace them on the
> board to find the relevant row of chips.  Then use the bits the same way
> to identify the specific chips.
>
> If the chips are in sockets, you could always pull them one at a time to
> find the relevant place in the array, as well.
> ...
>
> Are you seeing the parity error light when this occurs?
>
> Anyway, once the relevant chip(s) are identified, if they are in sockets
> you can swap them with other bits or the same bits in other rows to
> confirm.  Otherwise you get to unsolder the suspects, and put in new ones.
>
> JRJ
>
An old trick we use for testing soldered in DRAM is to simply jam a 
known-to-be-good DRAM on top of the suspect one (legs bent in to make 
good contact). DRAM normally fail bits high and so putting a good one on 
top causes nothing different to happen if the suspect is good, but if 
the suspect is bad then the top DRAM will drive the output and your RAM 
test will pass.

Of course you wedge the good one on the suspect when the power is off. 
Unless you are in a rush, and willing to possibly kill your test DRAM.

As a side note - there appears to be an error message: "CSR NUMBER 0 
CONTROLS TOO MANY BANKS"  Or is that irrelevant? I know nothing about 
the PDP-11 test messages...

John :-#)#


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 14 00:47:14 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 22:47:14 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <003401d166f3$8a22fd50$9e68f7f0$@gmail.com>

> So, apparently my NRZI 9 track drive has the density option included, and
I don't know if there were any other 200/556 bpi 9 track drives out there. 
> When we got the drive I had hoped it would be a 7 track drive, but it
isn't.
Now I finally get it. NRZI, 200, 556 and 800 densities, but in 9 track all
the time. That's weird. You'd think the lower densities would be for 7
track. Could it be that it is a read-only for 7 tracks at lower density, but
a read/write at 800 for 9 tracks? If you looked at the head you might be
able to confirm if it has a dual 7 track / 9 track head.
Marc




From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Feb 14 16:08:46 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:08:46 -0600
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>

On 2/13/2016 6:33 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Christian Corti wrote:
>> I have a 7970B (-236) with options 127, 006, 007, 012 and 023.
> 
> According to the HP 1000 Peripherals Selection Guide from 1982, page 16,
> option 236 specifies an 800bpi master magnetic tape subsystem with one
> drive and two-card 13181B interface.
> 
> And you can't mix 800 and 1600 bpi on the same interface for the HP
> 1000. You need either the 13181 for NRZI, or the 13183 for PE.

That makes sense: different formatters would be required.

> 
> So, apparently my NRZI 9 track drive has the density option included,
> and I don't know if there were any other 200/556 bpi 9 track drives out
> there. When we got the drive I had hoped it would be a 7 track drive,
> but it isn't.
> 
> Christian
> 

I have never heard of 200bpi or 556bpi for anything other than 7 track.
I cannot imagine why anyone would ever produce such a thing.  The only
density I have ever heard of as being available on both 7 track and 9
track is 800BPI NRZI, from any manufacturer, and I have seen quite a lot
of them over the years.  Nor have I ever seen a 9 track tape whose label
on the exterior claimed it had been written at 200 BPI or 556 BPI.

Your S/N has prefix 1124, so it looks like this manual is applicable:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90886_7970drws_Nov76.pdf

Looking at this manual for the 7970B / 7970E I see that dual 7/9 track
heads did exist.  Yours has a plate that claims it has option 127 (as
well as 6, 7, 12 and 23).   The 127 implies a 9 track only head, but I
suggest you pull the head cover off to see if you can find a part
number.  What the plate claims, and what the machine actually is can
differ for all sorts of reasons.  And the sticker is coming off at the
edges as well - it may have been *moved* from one frame to another.
Wouldn't be the first time - particularly in a university setting.

The buttons clearly imply a NRZI drive (rather than 1600 BPI PE).

JRJ

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 14 17:36:28 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 15:36:28 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>

On 02/14/2016 02:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> I have never heard of 200bpi or 556bpi for anything other than 7
> track. I cannot imagine why anyone would ever produce such a thing.
> The only density I have ever heard of as being available on both 7
> track and 9 track is 800BPI NRZI, from any manufacturer, and I have
> seen quite a lot of them over the years.  Nor have I ever seen a 9
> track tape whose label on the exterior claimed it had been written at
> 200 BPI or 556 BPI.

That would agree with my own experience as well.  800 NRZI and 1600 PE; 
6250 GCR.    There may have been non-computer (e.g. data logging) drives 
in 9-track with lower densities, but I've not run into any.

Some drives apparently *can* mix densities.  I came across an AT&T 
distro tape recently for SVR4 that started with 6250 GCR and then after 
the first tapemark, switched to 1600 PE for the remainder of the tape. 
I managed to read it in two passes--the first is the drive set to 6250 
at loadpoint, then with the drive set to 1600 at loadpoint.   All data 
was complete, so it's a puzzlement.

--Chuck


From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sun Feb 14 17:56:32 2016
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 23:56:32 +0000
Subject: Tool to convert between Motorola FFP and IEEE754 float formats?
Message-ID: <56C11430.5080002@philpem.me.uk>

Hi,

Does anyone know of a tool which can convert between Motorola's FFP
(Fast Floating Point) float format and IEEE754?

I'm trying to reverse-engineer some ancient 68k code which uses the FFP
library, but a load of the floating point constants have been hard-coded
as hex constants, which is making things hard to interpret...

I've tried to convert the 68k assembler in FFPIEEE.SA to C, but I must
have missed something because it just isn't working...

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sun Feb 14 19:47:38 2016
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 01:47:38 +0000
Subject: Tool to convert between Motorola FFP and IEEE754 float formats?
In-Reply-To: <56C11430.5080002@philpem.me.uk>
References: <56C11430.5080002@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <56C12E3A.4000304@philpem.me.uk>

On 14/02/16 23:56, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone know of a tool which can convert between Motorola's FFP
> (Fast Floating Point) float format and IEEE754?
> 
> I'm trying to reverse-engineer some ancient 68k code which uses the FFP
> library, but a load of the floating point constants have been hard-coded
> as hex constants, which is making things hard to interpret...
> 
> I've tried to convert the 68k assembler in FFPIEEE.SA to C, but I must
> have missed something because it just isn't working...


Naturally, I figured out what I was doing wrong an hour or so after I
hit send...

Enjoy!

// val is a FFP float, returns IEEE float format
// basically a direct conversion of the motorola FFPTIEEE function.
// comments are from there.
// you are not expected to understand this horrendous mess.
float ffpieee(const uint32_t val)
{
	uint32_t x = val;
	union {
		float f;
		uint32_t i;
	} _fcast;

	x = x + x;		// delete mantissa high bit
	if (x == 0) {
		// if zero, branch zero as finished
		return (float)x;
	}

	uint8_t k = x & 0xff;

	k ^= 0x80;	// to two's complement exponent
	k >>= 1;	// form 8-bit exponent
	k -= 0x82;	// adjust 64 to 127 and excessize

	x = (x & ~0xff) | k;

	x = (x << 16) | (x >> 16);	// swap for high byte placement
	x <<= 7;	// set sign+exp in high byte

	_fcast.i = x;

	return _fcast.f;
}




-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Feb 14 20:13:14 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:13:14 -0600
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net> <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56C1343A.7050404@charter.net>

On 2/14/2016 5:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 02:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> 
>> I have never heard of 200bpi or 556bpi for anything other than 7
>> track. I cannot imagine why anyone would ever produce such a thing.
>> The only density I have ever heard of as being available on both 7
>> track and 9 track is 800BPI NRZI, from any manufacturer, and I have
>> seen quite a lot of them over the years.  Nor have I ever seen a 9
>> track tape whose label on the exterior claimed it had been written at
>> 200 BPI or 556 BPI.
> 
> That would agree with my own experience as well.  800 NRZI and 1600 PE;
> 6250 GCR.    There may have been non-computer (e.g. data logging) drives
> in 9-track with lower densities, but I've not run into any.
> 
> Some drives apparently *can* mix densities.  I came across an AT&T
> distro tape recently for SVR4 that started with 6250 GCR and then after
> the first tapemark, switched to 1600 PE for the remainder of the tape. I
> managed to read it in two passes--the first is the drive set to 6250 at
> loadpoint, then with the drive set to 1600 at loadpoint.   All data was
> complete, so it's a puzzlement.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Yes, some drives can - ones that are not "smart" with their own
microprocessor.  My HP 9 Track drive is, unfortunately, "smart", and
looks for recording bursts at the beginning of the tape and sticks
doggedly to that.

Maybe some yahoo decided to write over the first file of that SVR4 tape
at higher density so as not to clobber the files after it.  Smart, so as
not to clobber the other stuff, but crazy.  Or it may have been just a
case of writing that first file, with no double-EOF EOT on it.

Or maybe someone wrote the first file and then went "OH SH*T that was a
DISTRO TAPE wasn't it..."  ;)

Anyway, I doubt AT&T would have written the tape that way intentionally.

Curious: What processor was that distro for?  Maybe donate the files to
PUPS?

JRJ

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 14 21:41:38 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 21:41:38 -0600
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net> <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56C148F2.8010605@pico-systems.com>

On 02/14/2016 05:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/14/2016 02:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>
>> I have never heard of 200bpi or 556bpi for anything other 
>> than 7
>> track. I cannot imagine why anyone would ever produce 
>> such a thing.
>> The only density I have ever heard of as being available 
>> on both 7
>> track and 9 track is 800BPI NRZI, from any manufacturer, 
>> and I have
>> seen quite a lot of them over the years.  Nor have I ever 
>> seen a 9
>> track tape whose label on the exterior claimed it had 
>> been written at
>> 200 BPI or 556 BPI.
>
> That would agree with my own experience as well.  800 NRZI 
> and 1600 PE; 6250 GCR.    There may have been non-computer 
> (e.g. data logging) drives in 9-track with lower 
> densities, but I've not run into any.
>
> Some drives apparently *can* mix densities.  I came across 
> an AT&T distro tape recently for SVR4 that started with 
> 6250 GCR and then after the first tapemark, switched to 
> 1600 PE for the remainder of the tape. I managed to read 
> it in two passes--the first is the drive set to 6250 at 
> loadpoint, then with the drive set to 1600 at loadpoint.   
> All data was complete, so it's a puzzlement.
>
Well, that could be a malfunction.  Some tape 
drive-formatter sets cannot do this without hardware 
problems.  But, some had software-controlled density, and so 
the software could override the detected density when the 
tape was mounted.  800 NRZI had nothing recorded over the 
BOT marker, 1600 and 6250 had distinct patterns written over 
the BOT marker to ID the density.  Once the density is 
identified, it SHOULDN'T allow you to change it in the 
middle of the tape.

Jon

From jgessling at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 14 17:38:02 2016
From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 23:38:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Babes at Bell Labs
References: <460399943.4145348.1455493082134.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <460399943.4145348.1455493082134.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

In honor of Valentine's day and all the great ladies that I've worked with over the years, ?I for one had a small part in a romance by setting up a VMS account for the geologist in our department after listening to his complaints about how useless computers were for years. ?Come to find out he wanted to email with one of my best programmers. ?Love ensued with marriage in a little while. ?Please enjoy.

Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1960s ? in pictures

| ? |
| ? |  | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? |
| Big computers, big hair: the women of Bell Labs in the 1...In 1967, Lawrence ?Larry? Luckham was an operations manager at Bell Labs in Oakland, California. He brought a camera into work to capture a day in the life? |
|  |
| View on www.theguardian.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
| ? |



Jim

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 15 00:37:37 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 22:37:37 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <56C1343A.7050404@charter.net>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net> <56C10F7C.7040705@sydex.com>
 <56C1343A.7050404@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56C17231.1030905@sydex.com>

On 02/14/2016 06:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

>
> Maybe some yahoo decided to write over the first file of that SVR4 tape
> at higher density so as not to clobber the files after it.  Smart, so as
> not to clobber the other stuff, but crazy.  Or it may have been just a
> case of writing that first file, with no double-EOF EOT on it.
>
> Or maybe someone wrote the first file and then went "OH SH*T that was a
> DISTRO TAPE wasn't it..."  ;)
>
> Anyway, I doubt AT&T would have written the tape that way intentionally.

Well, the tape bears an AT&T label.  The tape itself comes from UCB at 
about the same time that "ernie" was in use, so VAX or PDP11.  It could 
be a copy of an AT&T distro tape with the duplicate label attached. 
It's a 2,222,000 byte cpio file that starts out with:

#       THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T
#       The copyright notice above does not evidence any
#       actual or intended publication of such source code.

#ident  "@(#)mk::mk     1.10"
#
#       Shell script for rebuilding the UNIX System
#
trap "exit 1" 1 2 3 15
if [ "$ROOT" = "" ]
then
         PATH=/bin:/etc:/usr/bin; export PATH
fi

That's the 6250 GCR file; the 1600 PE file that follows is a 37,432,320 
byte cpio file that starts out in exactly the same way.  The 2MB file 
was probably an "osh*t" file as it terminates prematurely at 
"usr/src/cmd/bnu/bnu.mk".

I read it on my Fuji 2444 (Pertec interface).  None of my SCSI drives 
could handle the mixed density.

Just curious--

How many "smart" drives can handle multiple load points?  Before the day 
of autothreading drives, it was convenient to have a "universal 
deadstart" tape to carry along, with various operating systems on it. 
Just keep hitting the "load" button until you get to the one you want, 
then push the button.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 15 01:14:18 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 23:14:18 -0800
Subject: Babes at Bell Labs
In-Reply-To: <460399943.4145348.1455493082134.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <460399943.4145348.1455493082134.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <460399943.4145348.1455493082134.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56C17ACA.2020501@sydex.com>

On 02/14/2016 03:38 PM, James Gessling wrote:
> In honor of Valentine's day and all the great ladies that I've worked
with over the years, I for one had a small part in a romance by setting
up a VMS account for the geologist in our department after listening to
his complaints about how useless computers were for years. Come to find
out he wanted to email with one of my best programmers. Love ensued with
marriage in a little while. Please enjoy.

A bit later, but I remember a section manager at CDC who wore a 
powder-blue leisure suit.  Clothes changed a lot then.

--Chuck




From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Feb 15 04:32:34 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:32:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602151050190.5268@linuxserv.home>

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> Looking at this manual for the 7970B / 7970E I see that dual 7/9 track
> heads did exist.

Yes, but only in read-only configurations.

> Yours has a plate that claims it has option 127 (as
> well as 6, 7, 12 and 23).   The 127 implies a 9 track only head, but I
> suggest you pull the head cover off to see if you can find a part
> number.  What the plate claims, and what the machine actually is can

I've added another picture of a closeup of the R/W head. In my opinion 
it's a 9 track read-after-write head. The geometry and gaps are identical 
to those of the adjacent 7970B 800bpi-only tape drive we have.

> differ for all sorts of reasons.  And the sticker is coming off at the
> edges as well - it may have been *moved* from one frame to another.
> Wouldn't be the first time - particularly in a university setting.

I think it's the original sticker, the options listed on the manual 
(hand-written by HP on the cover page) match, and the date codes (1971) 
match, too.

Christian

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Feb 15 07:03:16 2016
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:03:16 +0000
Subject: Front Panels Update
Message-ID: <56C1CC94.30900@btinternet.com>

Hi
    I had an email in from the screeners this morning. She is getting 
there.
I suppose I should not expect automation speeds from a  skilled hand 
process.

Twenty boards not all the same with five passes per board, flush out 
time and
drying time with the need for spot on registration aint gonna be that quick.

More news as I get it

Rod


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 15 07:05:53 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 08:05:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: QSIC update
Message-ID: <20160215130553.1B35418C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So here's a quick update on where Dave Bridgham and I are with the QSIC, since
I think we have reached a significant milestone.


We have the first of two wire-wrap prototype QBUS motherboards more or less
(see below) done, and working to do slave cycles on the QBUS. (I.e. we
implemented a simple register, and can write it, and read the contents back.)
A test program to write all 2^16 possible values, and read them back and check
them, ran several thousand complete passes with no errors.

To get there, we (Dave, really - he bore the brunt of the work on this
problem, and finally conquered it) had to tackle and fix some major noise
issues: the way the prototype is done (a wirewrap QBUS mother-board with bus
transceivers, level converters, etc, connected to an FPGA prototyping card
with flat cables), we think we had cross-talk problems in the cables (since
the connector pinout on the FPGA card, which we can't change, didn't alternate
ground and signal lines).

Anyway, it's working now; that means the hardware is 'mostly' working; most of
the work from here on out will be FPGA, etc, programming. There _are_ a few
additional QBUS lines used for bus master (DMA) and interrupts which we
haven't used yet, and one of the first things done now is to get those two
kind of bus cycles working; a) we have to get them done anyway, and b) that
will verify that the QBUS interface hardware is full working.


With that in hand, we can do the first controller (RK11), using memory in the
FPGA to simulate a small disk. We'll then try and get to the larger RAM on the
FPGA, to do full-size RAM disks. Next up after that is probably to hook up
some SD cards (we already have produced the small PCB daughter-cards, which
will mount on sockets on the wire-wrap mother-board, to hold the SD cards - we
still need to add those sockets and wire them up, hence the comment that the
wire-wrap mother-boards are "almost done"), at which point we'll have a
fully-functional prototype.

Dave has also produced prototype PCB's for the indicator panel, and one has
been stuffed, and Dave's about to try and hook that up, and get it running;
that will require yet a bit more work on the mother-board (install 3 sockets
to hold the driver chips for the signal lines in the interface to the
indicator panel). Blinkenlitz are a priority because, i) just because ;-), and
ii) being able to display data from inside the FPGA will be a big debugging
help.


Anyway, we think getting slave cycles working was a major milestone (for a
couple of software guys :-), And we think (_hope_ :-) that progress will now
be pretty rapid, so hopefully more soon.

	Noel

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Mon Feb 15 07:38:03 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 14:38:03 +0100
Subject: IBM (Sony) PowerDisplay 20
Message-ID: <1455543483.2401.7.camel@agj.net>

Howdy.

I connected one of theese (i have two) to an PC last night.

Blemishes:
the text is blurry
wrong color tones (a little bit red)

so how much can i do with the display picture setting buttons ?

I'm thinking about connecting one of them to a Sun 10 (but i do have a
bunch of RS 6000 PPC machines.)


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 15 09:49:44 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: Real tape drive densities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602151050190.5268@linuxserv.home>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECABE02@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <82C066CE-3CEB-475F-9E4B-70A423A9A788@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECAC5CB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <00c501d16490$c7cf60e0$576e22a0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602111125240.21853@linuxserv.home>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602131329060.14995@linuxserv.home>
 <56C0FAEE.80502@charter.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602151050190.5268@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <56C1F398.3000203@bitsavers.org>



On 2/15/16 2:32 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
>
> I've added another picture of a closeup of the R/W head. In my opinion 
> it's a 9 track read-after-write head. The geometry and gaps are 
> identical to those of the adjacent 7970B 800bpi-only tape drive we have.
I have two 7/9 track HP drives, and a bunch of head stacks. There is no 
erase head. The 7 and 9 track head stacks sit next to each other. I may 
have time to dig them out and take pictures at some point this month.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 15 09:54:50 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 07:54:50 -0800
Subject: QSIC update
In-Reply-To: <20160215130553.1B35418C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160215130553.1B35418C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <56C1F4CA.6040407@bitsavers.org>



On 2/15/16 5:05 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Anyway, we think getting slave cycles working was a major milestone (for a
> couple of software guys :-)

yay!

Have you guys thought about a panel that would connect to the KM11
connector slots of real rk11/tc11 controllers? At one point, I thought about
a cable that would let you run virtual KM11's on a laptop screen.





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 15 10:50:03 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:50:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: QSIC update
Message-ID: <20160215165003.E5C9418C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    > Have you guys thought about a panel that would connect to the KM11
    > connector slots of real rk11/tc11 controllers?

Umm, Guy sells KM11 clones? (I just bought a pair, they look really nice.) Or
did you mean something else?

Speaking of things Guy has, Dave is talking about adding a switch that would
turn a QSIC+indicator panel into a QAV-11... :-)

	Noel

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Mon Feb 15 11:23:03 2016
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:23:03 -0500
Subject: Tool to convert between Motorola FFP and IEEE754 float formats?
In-Reply-To: <56C12E3A.4000304@philpem.me.uk>
References: <56C11430.5080002@philpem.me.uk> <56C12E3A.4000304@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <56C20977.8030009@comcast.net>

On 2/14/2016 8:47 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 14/02/16 23:56, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a tool which can convert between Motorola's FFP
>> (Fast Floating Point) float format and IEEE754?
>>
>> I'm trying to reverse-engineer some ancient 68k code which uses the FFP
>> library, but a load of the floating point constants have been hard-coded
>> as hex constants, which is making things hard to interpret...
>>
>> I've tried to convert the 68k assembler in FFPIEEE.SA to C, but I must
>> have missed something because it just isn't working...
>
> Naturally, I figured out what I was doing wrong an hour or so after I
> hit send...
>
Hi;

Back in the late 1980's I had a similar problem with reading data from a 
reel to reel tape created on a Z80 based Cromemco computer on a Vax 11/750.

Had to convert the IEEE format floating point numbers from the Cromemco 
to Vax floating point format, did it in Fortran much like what you have 
done, except in the other direction.

Doug

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 15 11:30:24 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:30:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Stuck bits on 11/73 Clearpoint 4MB memory - how to repair?
Message-ID: <20160215173024.EDB5018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jacob Ritorto

    > I struggled for hours with inadequate eyesight, tools and materials,
    > but I think I got this mod done!

That was quick! I had an 11/23 on my workbench that had had that backplane
mod, so I took it apart to take a picture, to help you, but I guess that's
OBE... :-)

    > the machine's stuck in self-test at error 47, Memory CSR error.

It's not clear that that's really a hardware problem. DEC makes assumptions
about how many memory CSRs there will be, etc, and some third-party board
'fail' when they don't meet those expectations. I have a Clearpoint QED1 (I
think that's the one, didn't check) that does that.

    > What I assume is the parity light on the third party "Clearpoint QRAM-2
    > SPB-1 88B" lights during self test. I've found no documentation for this
    > sucker as yet..

I have a PDF of the "User Information Manual" for the Clearpoint Q-RAM 88B.
(Oh, I see, later message says you found it.) No prints, alas. Anyone have any
we can scan and put online?

    > I'll have to find my rl02 controller and build the system up some more
    > so I can run xxdp and find out what exactly died.

I would tend to use diagnostics as 'help', not my main tool in diagnosing
faults. This is particular true as really bad issues can prevent the
diagnostics from loading/running, so if you get skilled at fault analysis
without depending on them, you're better situated to deal with the failures
that prevent using them.

    > Can anyone offer hints as to how to identify which component is broken
    > and how to go about repairing this?

As other have said, lacking the prints, pulling chips (if they are socketed)
ought to enable you to work out which chips goes where. (I'v worked out the
chip layout for a number of un-documented memory cards this way.)

I don't know about your 88B, but the one I have photos of, and my other
Clearpoint cards, the chips are in sockets. With luck yours will be too... If
not, ask if someone has one with sockets (alas, I don't have an 88B), who can
do the mapping for you.

Important: once you have worked it out, pass it along! I'm trying to upload
all the data I've collected about cards for which no documentation is
available to the Computer History wiki.

    > It's the only memory board in this machine, so I guess the problem
    > might actually be a bus or processor board, right?

Could be. I have an KDJ11-B which has stuck bits, and that's the CPU board,
so yours could be to.

    > I have no other q-bus memory to test with, so can't do swapping /
    > process of elimination to be sure.

It's definitely worth having another small QBUS memory card to use in fault
isolation when debugging. M8044's are readily available on eBay for about
$20. They are only Q18, so not usable in the same machine as Q22 memory, but
they are useful for debugging. I would definitely invest in one.

(If you luck out and get a bad one, send it to me, and I'll swap it for a
known good, tested, one. I've fixed a whole bunch of them, got to the point
where the last one I did for someone I didn't even have to pull out my
'scope! I could tell from the symptoms exactly which chip to replace! :-)


    > From: Jay Jaeger

    > Well clearly it is only affecting certain address bits - or the
    > diagnostic would not run at all

Well, like I said, I do have a KDJ11-B which will run the on-board startup
diagnostic, but which has a bit stuck hard on the QBUS interface! So those
machines seem to be pretty resilient.

Although as you point out, if he can load and run the diagnostic, it's
probably not the CPU.

    > note that it is starting at 010000000, so that points to the memory

Yup. If some locations work, and others don't, it's almost certainly the
memory. And since he's only dealing with a single memory card, it's probably
not the bus drivers/receivers on that card, either.

One can use ODT on the KDJ11-B to poke around, and find the envelope of the
problem. (See comments above about not relying on diagnostics! They are
better for saying something's busted, than for accurately telling what _is_
broken.)

With that, and a chip->memory map, it should be fairly easy to replace
the offending chips.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb 15 12:01:03 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:01:03 -0500
Subject: Tool to convert between Motorola FFP and IEEE754 float formats?
In-Reply-To: <56C20977.8030009@comcast.net>
References: <56C11430.5080002@philpem.me.uk> <56C12E3A.4000304@philpem.me.uk>
 <56C20977.8030009@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0FC6E68B-FD65-4737-9812-B233549A77FC@comcast.net>

One way to do float format conversions (among a whole bunch of formats) is to use the arbitrary-precision and variable-format float machinery in the GCC compiler (file real.c).  It probably doesn't quite give you what you need -- conversion from one format to another -- but I imagine that adding this wouldn't be all that hard.  If you need to do exotic stuff, like convert from PDP-11 D format to IBM-360 double, that would be a way to do it.

It can readily be extended to add formats it doesn't currently have.  I added PDP-11 float to it in the past, that was pretty easy.  I suspect stranger formats like CDC 6000 might be harder, but probably still doable.

	paul


From rickb at bensene.com  Mon Feb 15 12:25:51 2016
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 10:25:51 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>

Hi, all,

I have a question about old Mask-Programmed ROMs

The part in question is the National Semiconductor MM5231.  This part is
a 2K-bit PMOS Mask-Programmed ROM, generally organized as 256x8, but
also can be organized (via a MODE pin)as 512x4 bits.  In this particular
application, the parts are used as 256x8.

I'm wondering if anyone knows if these particular ROMs (from the '72
timeframe) have a tendency for bit rot over the years?

I know some of the early MOS ROMs had issues with metallization creep
that would cause data loss/corruption.

I have an old calculator that uses these ROMs as the micro and macrocode
stores.

The machine is catatonic, though the power supplies, master clock
oscillator and divider circuitry, and the other obvious stuff are  OK.
I suspect it is probably stuck in some kind of microcode loop, just
cycling around doing nothing.  I have not yet put  logic analyzer on the
microcode latches yet, but that's probably my next experiment.

Sadly, if one or more of these ROMs (there are 18 of them!) has failed,
it likely means that the machine can't be restored to operation, as this
is quite a rare machine, and there just aren't many of them left around.
I have three different EPROM programmers, but sadly, none of them have
the capability to read these parts.   I was I had a Data I/O programmer,
but alas, haven't come across one with all the Unipak modules I'd need
at a price I can afford.

Thanks,
-Rick
---
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com




From ramdyne at gmx.net  Mon Feb 15 13:48:30 2016
From: ramdyne at gmx.net (Andreas Sikkema)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:48:30 +0100
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
Message-ID: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>

Hi,

We at Hack42 have an Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale at
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/121893065311.

When we powered it up for the last time 18 months ago, it appeared to be
working (no nasty smells etc) but we didn't test it very much. What has
happened since is anybody's guess.

Note: shipping to the US is *really* expensive, but within Europe is
only slightly less painful (with packaging it'll reach 25kg easily).
Pickup is an option.

-- 
Andreas

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Feb 15 14:16:27 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:16:27 -0800
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>

> When we powered it up for the last time 18 months ago, it appeared to
> be working (no nasty smells etc) but we didn't test it very much. What
> has happened since is anybody's guess.

Well, why not power it up again and then no one has to guess "what has happened since"?

-Ali


From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 14:31:21 2016
From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:31:21 -0800
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>
	<002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>
Message-ID: <CAG0ySYtMR2StOHfFaBED0pHLk9nymu3=_rZT50_Mm_s-6NXQFw@mail.gmail.com>

Nice 1 Ali!

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > When we powered it up for the last time 18 months ago, it appeared to
> > be working (no nasty smells etc) but we didn't test it very much. What
> > has happened since is anybody's guess.
>
> Well, why not power it up again and then no one has to guess "what has
> happened since"?
>
> -Ali
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb 15 13:09:37 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:09:37 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u95F6Z-yiA9OLYDVVLvxoDcm7znfmO286htyYPyb2yAaw@mail.gmail.com>

The ones you have to watch out for as a rule are those made by Mostek. Not
sure of the date when they changed to recipe.

If your still in/near PDX I will be getting my Unisite+ back in March and I
may have a working Model 29 that you can borrow.

-pete

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Rick Bensene <rickb at bensene.com> wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> I have a question about old Mask-Programmed ROMs
>
> The part in question is the National Semiconductor MM5231.  This part is
> a 2K-bit PMOS Mask-Programmed ROM, generally organized as 256x8, but
> also can be organized (via a MODE pin)as 512x4 bits.  In this particular
> application, the parts are used as 256x8.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows if these particular ROMs (from the '72
> timeframe) have a tendency for bit rot over the years?
>
> I know some of the early MOS ROMs had issues with metallization creep
> that would cause data loss/corruption.
>
> I have an old calculator that uses these ROMs as the micro and macrocode
> stores.
>
> The machine is catatonic, though the power supplies, master clock
> oscillator and divider circuitry, and the other obvious stuff are  OK.
> I suspect it is probably stuck in some kind of microcode loop, just
> cycling around doing nothing.  I have not yet put  logic analyzer on the
> microcode latches yet, but that's probably my next experiment.
>
> Sadly, if one or more of these ROMs (there are 18 of them!) has failed,
> it likely means that the machine can't be restored to operation, as this
> is quite a rare machine, and there just aren't many of them left around.
> I have three different EPROM programmers, but sadly, none of them have
> the capability to read these parts.   I was I had a Data I/O programmer,
> but alas, haven't come across one with all the Unipak modules I'd need
> at a price I can afford.
>
> Thanks,
> -Rick
> ---
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
>
>
>
>
>

From auringer at tds.net  Mon Feb 15 14:41:21 2016
From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 14:41:21 -0600
Subject: VAX/VMS media
Message-ID: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net>

Hello all,

I have a bunch of VAX/VMS media that need a new home. I must move them 
very soon and I have little time for shipping. Pickup from 53714 
(Madison, Wi) preferred.

16MT9:
VMS V5.3 BIN 1/2 & 2/2 in shipping box with docs
VMS V5.3.1 BIN

8" floppy media:
VAX/VMS 3.4 5 disks
VAX/VMS 3.6
VAX/VMS 3.7
VAX/VMS 4.0 3 disks
VAX/VMS V4.1 UPD BIN 4 disks
VAX/VMS V4.2 BIN RX01 MANDATORY UPDATE
VAX FORTRAN 3.4
VAX PASCAL 2.3

Microfiche:
VAX/VMS 3.6 SRC LST
VAX/VMS 4.2 SRC LST

-Jon

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 14:52:08 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:52:08 -0700
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSaLFi7-Qr8=saXPhRtVMEKJGbfskkqmtr10p_2YPmjPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Rick Bensene <rickb at bensene.com> wrote:
> I know some of the early MOS ROMs had issues with metallization creep
> that would cause data loss/corruption.

That would certainly do it, but it's the first time I've heard of it
with regard to masked ROMs.

> I have three different EPROM programmers, but sadly, none of them have
> the capability to read these parts.   I was I had a Data I/O programmer,
> but alas, haven't come across one with all the Unipak modules I'd need
> at a price I can afford.

It's not obvious that even a Data I/O would read them. With at least
"recent" Data I/O models, they often won't read masked-ROM
microcontrollers because they detect that the supply current is out of
range for EPROM parts.

If I were going to read those, I'd wire them up to the pins of a
microcontroller. I've been doing that lately for other non-standard
ROMs, such as the Western Digital microcode ROMs used in the LSI-11,
Alpha Micro AM100, and Pascal Microengine.

Obviously you should try to read them by electrical means first.
However, if you eventually become completely convinced that you
haven't (or can't) get the correct data out of them in that way, it
will be time to start thinking about decap. It seems fairly likely
that it will be possible to optically distinguish the intended states
of the bits, as opposed to the actual electrical connectivity.  This
has been done successfully with NiCr bipolar PROMs suffering from fuse
regrowth, though the problem for masked ROMs isn't completely the
same.

From oltmansg at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 15:20:14 2016
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 15:20:14 -0600
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAG0ySYtMR2StOHfFaBED0pHLk9nymu3=_rZT50_Mm_s-6NXQFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net> <002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>
 <CAG0ySYtMR2StOHfFaBED0pHLk9nymu3=_rZT50_Mm_s-6NXQFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVr2PsYq8uCnHWJokYTSjA2aXNuqVXHsV7K-14_8tQig=SNNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Slight threadjack... which is uglier... the Lisa or the Apple ///?

From auringer at tds.net  Mon Feb 15 15:32:59 2016
From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 15:32:59 -0600
Subject: VAX/VMS media
In-Reply-To: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net>
References: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net>
Message-ID: <56C2440B.3080508@tds.net>

Hello again,

On 2016-02-15 2:41 PM, Jon Auringer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have a bunch of VAX/VMS media that need a new home. I must move them
> very soon and I have little time for shipping. Pickup from 53714
> (Madison, Wi) preferred.

I have found someone to pick up the DEC stuff in a very timely manner. 
Thank you for your attention.

-Jon

From kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 15:44:14 2016
From: kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com (Kevin Griffin)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:44:14 -0800
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CABVr2PsYq8uCnHWJokYTSjA2aXNuqVXHsV7K-14_8tQig=SNNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net> <002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>
 <CAG0ySYtMR2StOHfFaBED0pHLk9nymu3=_rZT50_Mm_s-6NXQFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABVr2PsYq8uCnHWJokYTSjA2aXNuqVXHsV7K-14_8tQig=SNNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0ySYvFV4u_sw9irSxt3p3GaZ11VLO0iVN-3iSuWF9U6=rK4A@mail.gmail.com>

I have two Lisas (2/5 and 2/10) - so I say Apple ///!! (obviously not
objective).

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Slight threadjack... which is uglier... the Lisa or the Apple ///?
>

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 15:51:55 2016
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 13:51:55 -0800
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAG0ySYvFV4u_sw9irSxt3p3GaZ11VLO0iVN-3iSuWF9U6=rK4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net> <002b01d1682d$c1110470$43330d50$@net>
 <CAG0ySYtMR2StOHfFaBED0pHLk9nymu3=_rZT50_Mm_s-6NXQFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABVr2PsYq8uCnHWJokYTSjA2aXNuqVXHsV7K-14_8tQig=SNNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG0ySYvFV4u_sw9irSxt3p3GaZ11VLO0iVN-3iSuWF9U6=rK4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWDdR_uGbyDBDzj_QfJLSbx6JitHpKy_hg2RNfBBtpufPA@mail.gmail.com>

Did you remove the battery >18 months ago and neutralize the damage? Cuz
otherwise I wouldn't bank on it turning on again! :)

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Kevin Griffin <
kevinwilliamgriffin at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have two Lisas (2/5 and 2/10) - so I say Apple ///!! (obviously not
> objective).
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Slight threadjack... which is uglier... the Lisa or the Apple ///?
> >
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 17:54:04 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 16:54:04 -0700
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have the DIBOL-11 software, which was packaged for RT-11
as CTS-300, and for RSTS as CTS-500?

My immediate interest is for RT-11, though I have a DECdatasystem-570
that I believe was originally sold with CTS-500, so it would be really
nice to get that as well.

It would also be nice to get scans of related documentation, if anyone
has it, including:

AA-5519A-TC Introduction to CTS-300 and DIBOL
AA-5697E-TC CTS-300 Release Notes and Installation Guide
AA-5495A-TC CTS-300 Concepts and Facilities
AA-1760F-TC DIBOL-11 Language Reference Manual
AA-5972D-TC DECFORM User's Guide
AA-5025B-TC CDS-500 DIBOL User's Guide

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Feb 15 18:10:44 2016
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 16:10:44 -0800
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <686924FB-2FDB-400A-81CA-0691188B44DC@aracnet.com>

Wow!  I?m sad to say, good luck with this one.  I?ve not seen any sign of it having survived.  As close as I can get is the binder I have for COS-310 v8.01, but that is for the PDP-8.

I?ve always thought it would be interesting to check out DIBOL-11, so would be interested if you have any luck.  My fear is this is like DECnet for RT-11, impossible to find.  I hope I?m wrong.

Zane



> On Feb 15, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have the DIBOL-11 software, which was packaged for RT-11
> as CTS-300, and for RSTS as CTS-500?
> 
> My immediate interest is for RT-11, though I have a DECdatasystem-570
> that I believe was originally sold with CTS-500, so it would be really
> nice to get that as well.
> 
> It would also be nice to get scans of related documentation, if anyone
> has it, including:
> 
> AA-5519A-TC Introduction to CTS-300 and DIBOL
> AA-5697E-TC CTS-300 Release Notes and Installation Guide
> AA-5495A-TC CTS-300 Concepts and Facilities
> AA-1760F-TC DIBOL-11 Language Reference Manual
> AA-5972D-TC DECFORM User's Guide
> AA-5025B-TC CDS-500 DIBOL User's Guide


From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 18:17:51 2016
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 18:17:51 -0600
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have the DIBOL-11 software, which was packaged for RT-11
> as CTS-300, and for RSTS as CTS-500?
>
> My immediate interest is for RT-11, though I have a DECdatasystem-570
> that I believe was originally sold with CTS-500, so it would be really
> nice to get that as well.

Can you process (image) 9-track tape?  I have quite a few tapes with
DIBOL-related packages on them.  Whether any of them are actual DEC
DIBOL, I don't know yet.  I can work up a list of titles/numbers
soon-ish.  I do have a SCSI 9-track drive but it's not easily
accessible at the moment (nor is the time to read them in.)  I'd be
happy to send them off to someone who could, though.

Similarly, I haven't run across any DEC DIBOL documentation yet
(though there is still much to look through.)  I have scanned many
MCBA manuals for their DIBOL products here:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MCBA

The tapes I have were originally for a DECDataSystem 11/34-based
machine.  The CTS-xxx moniker sounds familiar, though.

-j

From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Feb 15 19:46:00 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 19:46:00 -0600
Subject: VAX/VMS media
In-Reply-To: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net>
References: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net>
Message-ID: <56C27F58.2070407@charter.net>

On 2/15/2016 2:41 PM, Jon Auringer wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have a bunch of VAX/VMS media that need a new home. I must move them
> very soon and I have little time for shipping. Pickup from 53714
> (Madison, Wi) preferred.
> 
> 16MT9:
> VMS V5.3 BIN 1/2 & 2/2 in shipping box with docs
> VMS V5.3.1 BIN
> 
> 8" floppy media:
> VAX/VMS 3.4 5 disks
> VAX/VMS 3.6
> VAX/VMS 3.7
> VAX/VMS 4.0 3 disks
> VAX/VMS V4.1 UPD BIN 4 disks
> VAX/VMS V4.2 BIN RX01 MANDATORY UPDATE
> VAX FORTRAN 3.4
> VAX PASCAL 2.3
> 
> Microfiche:
> VAX/VMS 3.6 SRC LST
> VAX/VMS 4.2 SRC LST
> 
> -Jon
> 

I am in Madison, and have the means to image them.

I have fiche for VMS 3.6 and 4.2, though they are delta apparently,
rather than complete listings. I think my VMS 3.0 and 4.4 fiche are
complete listings.

JRJ

BCC: Jon


From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Feb 15 19:46:46 2016
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 19:46:46 -0600
Subject: VAX/VMS media
In-Reply-To: <56C2440B.3080508@tds.net>
References: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net> <56C2440B.3080508@tds.net>
Message-ID: <56C27F86.6060305@charter.net>

On 2/15/2016 3:32 PM, Jon Auringer wrote:
> Hello again,
> 
> On 2016-02-15 2:41 PM, Jon Auringer wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have a bunch of VAX/VMS media that need a new home. I must move them
>> very soon and I have little time for shipping. Pickup from 53714
>> (Madison, Wi) preferred.
> 
> I have found someone to pick up the DEC stuff in a very timely manner.
> Thank you for your attention.
> 
> -Jon
> 

Ah. I see I was too late.

JRJ


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Mon Feb 15 19:53:02 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 02:53:02 +0100
Subject: IBM (Sony) PowerDisplay 20
In-Reply-To: <1455543483.2401.7.camel@agj.net>
References: <1455543483.2401.7.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <1455587582.2401.10.camel@agj.net>

m?n 2016-02-15 klockan 14:38 +0100 skrev Stefan Skoglund (lokal
anv?ndare): 
> Howdy.
> 
> I connected one of theese (i have two) to an PC last night.
> 
> Blemishes:
> the text is blurry
> wrong color tones (a little bit red)
> 
> so how much can i do with the display picture setting buttons ?
> 
> I'm thinking about connecting one of them to a Sun 10 (but i do have a
> bunch of RS 6000 PPC machines.)
> 

I found the user manual for it and read up on convergence settings.

I got a mostly good display (some work still to do concerning
pincushion) but the text got good.

Result: Windows 95 running in 1600x1280.

Do anyone have the service dito (and would be willing to share) ?


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 15 23:25:38 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 21:25:38 -0800
Subject: VAX/VMS media
In-Reply-To: <56C27F86.6060305@charter.net>
References: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net> <56C2440B.3080508@tds.net>
 <56C27F86.6060305@charter.net>
Message-ID: <52914EEE-5614-4E10-89DF-BA8D4BC59076@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 15, 2016, at 17:46, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Ah. I see I was too late.

Me, too. Well, that's what I get for failing to keep on top of my personal email while at work today. :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 15 23:50:31 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 23:50:31 -0600
Subject: VAX/VMS media
In-Reply-To: <52914EEE-5614-4E10-89DF-BA8D4BC59076@nf6x.net>
References: <56C237F1.7090001@tds.net> <56C2440B.3080508@tds.net>
 <56C27F86.6060305@charter.net>
 <52914EEE-5614-4E10-89DF-BA8D4BC59076@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <20160216055030.GA6201@gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 15, 2016, at 17:46, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Ah. I see I was too late.
> 
> Me, too. Well, that's what I get for failing to keep on top of my personal email while at work today. :)

I would have claimed them based on proximity, but then I'd have had to
worry about keeping them in a safe environment, so it's probably for the
best.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From jrr at flippers.com  Tue Feb 16 00:31:58 2016
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:31:58 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>

On 02/15/2016 10:25 AM, Rick Bensene wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> I have a question about old Mask-Programmed ROMs
>
> The part in question is the National Semiconductor MM5231.  This part is
> a 2K-bit PMOS Mask-Programmed ROM, generally organized as 256x8, but
> also can be organized (via a MODE pin)as 512x4 bits.  In this particular
> application, the parts are used as 256x8.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows if these particular ROMs (from the '72
> timeframe) have a tendency for bit rot over the years?
>
> I know some of the early MOS ROMs had issues with metallization creep
> that would cause data loss/corruption.
>
> I have an old calculator that uses these ROMs as the micro and macrocode
> stores.
>
> The machine is catatonic, though the power supplies, master clock
> oscillator and divider circuitry, and the other obvious stuff are  OK.
> I suspect it is probably stuck in some kind of microcode loop, just
> cycling around doing nothing.  I have not yet put  logic analyzer on the
> microcode latches yet, but that's probably my next experiment.
>
> Sadly, if one or more of these ROMs (there are 18 of them!) has failed,
> it likely means that the machine can't be restored to operation, as this
> is quite a rare machine, and there just aren't many of them left around.
> I have three different EPROM programmers, but sadly, none of them have
> the capability to read these parts.   I was I had a Data I/O programmer,
> but alas, haven't come across one with all the Unipak modules I'd need
> at a price I can afford.
>
> Thanks,
> -Rick
> ---
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
>
>
>
>
Rick, if you want to archive these PROMs (highly recommended) you should 
be able to find a Data I/O 29B and get one of the programming packs that 
supports NS chips. I may have such a combination in my collection, but 
that PROM is not listed in my DATA I/O library of readable parts. Part 
of the problem with the early PROMs is they needed a Sync or Clock 
signal to be able to be read.

If I think of it tomorrow I will go through my sets, but the best place 
right now is for you to post this request on the Data I/O mail list on 
Yahoo...."Data_IO_EPROM" and see if someone there can give you better 
advice.

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 01:25:54 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 00:25:54 -0700
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:31 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:
> Rick, if you want to archive these PROMs (highly recommended) you should be
> able to find a Data I/O 29B and get one of the programming packs that
> supports NS chips. I may have such a combination in my collection, but that
> PROM is not listed in my DATA I/O library of readable parts.

They're not PROMs, they are masked ROMs, and there is *NO* equivalent
PROM, so it's unlikely that there's any support for reading them on
any PROM programmer.

> Part of the
> problem with the early PROMs is they needed a Sync or Clock signal to be
> able to be read.

The MM4221/5221 is fully static, so it doesn't have that particular problem.

It's PMOS, and needs +5V and -12V supplies. The outputs are
TTL-compatible, but the inputs technically are not, due to Vih min of
3.0V. Could be driven by TTL with a pullup resistor, or by CMOS.

From jrr at flippers.com  Tue Feb 16 02:04:33 2016
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 00:04:33 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C2D811.9000102@flippers.com>

On 02/15/2016 11:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:31 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:
>> Rick, if you want to archive these PROMs (highly recommended) you should be
>> able to find a Data I/O 29B and get one of the programming packs that
>> supports NS chips. I may have such a combination in my collection, but that
>> PROM is not listed in my DATA I/O library of readable parts.
> They're not PROMs, they are masked ROMs, and there is *NO* equivalent
> PROM, so it's unlikely that there's any support for reading them on
> any PROM programmer.
>
>> Part of the
>> problem with the early PROMs is they needed a Sync or Clock signal to be
>> able to be read.
> The MM4221/5221 is fully static, so it doesn't have that particular problem.
>
> It's PMOS, and needs +5V and -12V supplies. The outputs are
> TTL-compatible, but the inputs technically are not, due to Vih min of
> 3.0V. Could be driven by TTL with a pullup resistor, or by CMOS.
>
>
Does it share the same pinout as the 1702 MOS Eprom? I can read and 
program those EPROMs in my shop. The 1705 has a Vcc of +5, and a Vdd of 
-9 to a  maximum of -20VDC, it is a 24 pin device though.

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Feb 16 06:51:33 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:51:33 +0100
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <20160216125133.GA13838@beast.freibergnet.de>

Rick Bensene wrote:

> Hi, all,
> 
> I have a question about old Mask-Programmed ROMs
> 
> The part in question is the National Semiconductor MM5231.  This part is
> a 2K-bit PMOS Mask-Programmed ROM, generally organized as 256x8, but
> also can be organized (via a MODE pin)as 512x4 bits.  In this particular
> application, the parts are used as 256x8.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone knows if these particular ROMs (from the '72
> timeframe) have a tendency for bit rot over the years?
> 
> I know some of the early MOS ROMs had issues with metallization creep
> that would cause data loss/corruption.
> 
> I have an old calculator that uses these ROMs as the micro and macrocode
> stores.
> 
> The machine is catatonic, though the power supplies, master clock
> oscillator and divider circuitry, and the other obvious stuff are  OK.
> I suspect it is probably stuck in some kind of microcode loop, just
> cycling around doing nothing.  I have not yet put  logic analyzer on the
> microcode latches yet, but that's probably my next experiment.
> 
> Sadly, if one or more of these ROMs (there are 18 of them!) has failed,
> it likely means that the machine can't be restored to operation, as this
> is quite a rare machine, and there just aren't many of them left around.
> I have three different EPROM programmers, but sadly, none of them have
> the capability to read these parts.   I was I had a Data I/O programmer,
> but alas, haven't come across one with all the Unipak modules I'd need
> at a price I can afford.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Rick
> ---
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
> 
> 

I can only speak for similar east german made ROMs, both 256x8 and 1024x8.
The 256x8 (U501) part was pin compatible to the 1702A and the other one (U505)
to the 2708 and both of them (1st PMOS, 2nd NMOS) where much less reliable than
the compatible Eproms. In fact if I get a bad PCB with such ROMs I've
expect a failed ROM first.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From ramdyne at gmx.net  Tue Feb 16 08:09:29 2016
From: ramdyne at gmx.net (Andreas Sikkema)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:09:29 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
Message-ID: <56C32D99.7030306@gmx.net>

Hi,

Is anyone interested in PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems? We at Hack42 have no
idea what to do with them. We need to downsize and these take up a
significant amount of our space.

See http://dev.ramdyne.nl/IMG_2750.JPG for photograph of the stack.

If you know other people who are interested in beasts like these, please
pass this information on.
-- 
Andreas

From jasper.wijnands at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 10:43:45 2016
From: jasper.wijnands at gmail.com (Jasper Wijnands)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 17:43:45 +0100
Subject: For sale PDP 11/45 + TU56 + more
Message-ID: <CAFYaDtFxCk4OLAgApEGp=rhxgdJ+ktbo6w0sYZ+xNpg4i9jhPA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
For sale rare PDP 11/45 mini computer
Included:
- TU56 Tape transport
- Cardbuses
- Original DEC Schematics

Accepting offers. Please mail to jasper.wijnands at gmail.com. Located in The
Netherlands.
Kind regards,
Jasper Wijnands

pictures:

[image: undefined]
[image: undefined]
[image: undefined]
[image: undefined]

[image: undefined]
[image: undefined]

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 12:55:22 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 12:55:22 -0600
Subject: For sale PDP 11/45 + TU56 + more
In-Reply-To: <CAFYaDtFxCk4OLAgApEGp=rhxgdJ+ktbo6w0sYZ+xNpg4i9jhPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFYaDtFxCk4OLAgApEGp=rhxgdJ+ktbo6w0sYZ+xNpg4i9jhPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO_OHkTRkZCgXNsxRNs6WuurXn53AYa_HEgC-=Av8uywg@mail.gmail.com>

The story of my life- a day late or the other side of the pond....

Sounds like a wonderful system.

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Jasper Wijnands <jasper.wijnands at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hello,
> For sale rare PDP 11/45 mini computer
> Included:
> - TU56 Tape transport
> - Cardbuses
> - Original DEC Schematics
>
> Accepting offers. Please mail to jasper.wijnands at gmail.com. Located in The
> Netherlands.
> Kind regards,
> Jasper Wijnands
>
> pictures:
>
> [image: undefined]
> [image: undefined]
> [image: undefined]
> [image: undefined]
>
> [image: undefined]
> [image: undefined]
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Feb 16 13:06:04 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:06:04 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-15, at 11:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:31 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:
>> Rick, if you want to archive these PROMs (highly recommended) you should be
>> able to find a Data I/O 29B and get one of the programming packs that
>> supports NS chips. I may have such a combination in my collection, but that
>> PROM is not listed in my DATA I/O library of readable parts.
> 
> They're not PROMs, they are masked ROMs, and there is *NO* equivalent
> PROM, so it's unlikely that there's any support for reading them on
> any PROM programmer.

Apparently there actually is an equivalent EPROM, according to this
datasheet for the MM4203/MM5203 EPROM:
	http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-006/Scans-00137265.pdf

It states they are pin-compatible to the MM5213/MM5231 mask ROMs.
The EPROM even has the selectable configuration mentioned by Rick.
(This is the only mention I've found of the 5231, I haven't come across this Nat Semi ROM series before.)

Similar pinout to the 1702 (quite different than the industry standard of the 2708,2716,2732,etc.)

I expect they're too early and too uncommon to be covered by anything other than a specifically-targeted programmer from the period.
It shouldn't be difficult to read them either way - adapter for an EPROM reader or microcontroller, with additional power supplies as necessary, might have to consider power-sequencing issues though.

Rick, what calculator are they in?, I'd be interested in looking it up on your site.


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 16 14:43:17 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 20:43:17 +0000
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB07224A23D5E9DDEE0697348EA3AD0@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

It is interesting, I have 1702As that were programmed in 1973 sometime
and they still have their data ( used on my SIM4-01 ).
And yes, I have them backed up.
It is interesting that Data I/O has added supply current
checks. I've used many home made pin adapters over the
years to read old ROMs, as John probably knows, as some
were from pin ball machines.
Some of the earlier ROM also had address latches built in,
making reading tough.
Anyway, making pin adapters is not that hard. I usually stack
a three solder pin, machine pin sockets.
In place I don't want any connection, like Vpp, I pop the pin
out. In other places where I need to rewire, I break the
solder pin off and file it down a little so it won't short.
I do connections and sometimes vector side boards with
soldered wire wrap wire. Often I need switches or sometimes
logic off to the side.
It only takes 15 or so minute to put a typical adapter
together.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 11:06 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?

On 2016-Feb-15, at 11:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:31 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:
>> Rick, if you want to archive these PROMs (highly recommended) you should be
>> able to find a Data I/O 29B and get one of the programming packs that
>> supports NS chips. I may have such a combination in my collection, but that
>> PROM is not listed in my DATA I/O library of readable parts.
>
> They're not PROMs, they are masked ROMs, and there is *NO* equivalent
> PROM, so it's unlikely that there's any support for reading them on
> any PROM programmer.

Apparently there actually is an equivalent EPROM, according to this
datasheet for the MM4203/MM5203 EPROM:
        http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-006/Scans-00137265.pdf

It states they are pin-compatible to the MM5213/MM5231 mask ROMs.
The EPROM even has the selectable configuration mentioned by Rick.
(This is the only mention I've found of the 5231, I haven't come across this Nat Semi ROM series before.)

Similar pinout to the 1702 (quite different than the industry standard of the 2708,2716,2732,etc.)

I expect they're too early and too uncommon to be covered by anything other than a specifically-targeted programmer from the period.
It shouldn't be difficult to read them either way - adapter for an EPROM reader or microcontroller, with additional power supplies as necessary, might have to consider power-sequencing issues though.

Rick, what calculator are they in?, I'd be interested in looking it up on your site.


From jrr at flippers.com  Tue Feb 16 15:50:53 2016
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:50:53 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB07224A23D5E9DDEE0697348EA3AD0@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
 <BN3PR14MB07224A23D5E9DDEE0697348EA3AD0@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <56C399BD.1080905@flippers.com>

On 02/16/2016 12:43 PM, dwight wrote:
> It is interesting, I have 1702As that were programmed in 1973 sometime
> and they still have their data ( used on my SIM4-01 ).
> And yes, I have them backed up.
> It is interesting that Data I/O has added supply current
> checks. I've used many home made pin adapters over the
> years to read old ROMs, as John probably knows, as some
> were from pin ball machines.
> Some of the earlier ROM also had address latches built in,
> making reading tough.
> Anyway, making pin adapters is not that hard. I usually stack
> a three solder pin, machine pin sockets.
> In place I don't want any connection, like Vpp, I pop the pin
> out. In other places where I need to rewire, I break the
> solder pin off and file it down a little so it won't short.
> I do connections and sometimes vector side boards with
> soldered wire wrap wire. Often I need switches or sometimes
> logic off to the side.
> It only takes 15 or so minute to put a typical adapter
> together.
> Dwight

And one could use a 9-Volt battery for the -9 on one of these home-made 
adapters...

John :-#)#
>


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 16:22:07 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 15:22:07 -0700
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRcTgxBqhOWDD2h84UiCqUyP1g8acRWmLAE6ZH=-xEJBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> Apparently there actually is an equivalent EPROM, according to this
> datasheet for the MM4203/MM5203 EPROM:
>         http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-006/Scans-00137265.pdf
>
> It states they are pin-compatible to the MM5213/MM5231 mask ROMs.

Interesting. I checked the MM5204, but not the MM5203.  The MM5203
requires wiring for pins 22 and 23 that the MM5231 doesn't, but other
than that it does appear the same.

From sieler at allegro.com  Tue Feb 16 16:26:43 2016
From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 14:26:43 -0800
Subject: Looking for printers: Epson Stylus Pro 9000, Epson 9500,
 Lexmark 7000 Z11
Message-ID: <9F9136B5-723B-4C25-B01E-13384350C20B@allegro.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for some old inkjet printers for a legal partner:

   Epson Stylus Pro 9000
   Epson 9500
   Lexmark 7000 Z11 

They're from about 1998 or 1999.  
They probably have fixed nozzles across the page, no moving head.

Assuming they're of the correct vintage / acceptable, a bounty will be paid.

thanks!

Stan Sieler
sieler at allegro.com
Cupertino, CA


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 16:35:47 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:35:47 +1300
Subject: Couple of Xerox 6085 questions
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbOiOQTHg3VOFYrVs+sSaMdMQ5H7BoZ=TLyg8pec+X7RfA@mail.gmail.com>

1. Anyone who has played with Xerox systems will have encountered the
dreaded 0937 code at boot time; it means "I have been configured for
network operations. I abjure the world and will wait until hell
freezes over before continuing the boot - unless I get the time from a
network time server!"

This is inconvenient and frustrating at times. Netware IPX/SPX is
basically Xerox XNS implemented pretty much unchanged; does anyone
happen to know if a Netware server can provide network time server
functions - and in a way that a Xerox workstation would grok?

2. I haven't powered up my 6085s in a long time - at least 5 years;
maybe 10 for some of them. The results have been most disappointing.
They won't even *start* POST - and/or they give a rolling screen with
no sync - and/or a blank screen - and/or they pass POST but won't boot
with an 0151 error. I've tracked these down in most cases to flaky IOB
boards. These boards hold the system PROMs. Anyone else seen similar
issues? Could it be bit rot in the PROMs? Is that a known thing with
6085s?

Thanks

Mike

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 17:10:52 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 17:10:52 -0600
Subject: Looking for printers: Epson Stylus Pro 9000, Epson 9500, Lexmark
 7000 Z11
In-Reply-To: <9F9136B5-723B-4C25-B01E-13384350C20B@allegro.com>
References: <9F9136B5-723B-4C25-B01E-13384350C20B@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO6HcNqyfgFo7biLb5s=dbyiWOi5swfooeiFhAD6kkGmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Stan,


I have a box of never used Epson parts. If you are interested, I can try to
dig them up.

Paul

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 4:26 PM, sieler_allegro <sieler at allegro.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for some old inkjet printers for a legal partner:
>
>    Epson Stylus Pro 9000
>    Epson 9500
>    Lexmark 7000 Z11
>
> They're from about 1998 or 1999.
> They probably have fixed nozzles across the page, no moving head.
>
> Assuming they're of the correct vintage / acceptable, a bounty will be
> paid.
>
> thanks!
>
> Stan Sieler
> sieler at allegro.com
> Cupertino, CA
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Feb 16 18:43:59 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:43:59 -0800
Subject: Couple of Xerox 6085 questions
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOiOQTHg3VOFYrVs+sSaMdMQ5H7BoZ=TLyg8pec+X7RfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbOiOQTHg3VOFYrVs+sSaMdMQ5H7BoZ=TLyg8pec+X7RfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C3C24F.8060805@bitsavers.org>



On 2/16/16 2:35 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> 1. Anyone who has played with Xerox systems will have encountered the
> dreaded 0937 code at boot time; it means "I have been configured for
> network operations. I abjure the world and will wait until hell
> freezes over before continuing the boot - unless I get the time from a
> network time server!"
>
> This is inconvenient and frustrating at times. Netware IPX/SPX is
> basically Xerox XNS implemented pretty much unchanged; does anyone
> happen to know if a Netware server can provide network time server
> functions - and in a way that a Xerox workstation would grok?

there was an NS time server for Unix. it would require some hacking to 
get it
to work on another system

You can set the time manually, but its a bit awkward to set up. See page 
B-7 of 610E00201_XDE_User_Guide_Oct88.pdf under xerox/xde on bitsavers

> 2. I haven't powered up my 6085s in a long time - at least 5 years;
> maybe 10 for some of them. The results have been most disappointing.
> They won't even *start* POST - and/or they give a rolling screen with
> no sync - and/or a blank screen - and/or they pass POST but won't boot
> with an 0151 error. I've tracked these down in most cases to flaky IOB
> boards. These boards hold the system PROMs. Anyone else seen similar
> issues? Could it be bit rot in the PROMs? Is that a known thing with
> 6085s?
>
possible. I'm digging out all of my 6085 parts now so I'll know more in 
a couple of months



From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 21:32:55 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 19:32:55 -0800
Subject: Couple of Xerox 6085 questions
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOiOQTHg3VOFYrVs+sSaMdMQ5H7BoZ=TLyg8pec+X7RfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbOiOQTHg3VOFYrVs+sSaMdMQ5H7BoZ=TLyg8pec+X7RfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C3E9E7.9050102@gmail.com>

On 2/16/16 2:35 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> 1. Anyone who has played with Xerox systems will have encountered the
> dreaded 0937 code at boot time; it means "I have been configured for
> network operations. I abjure the world and will wait until hell
> freezes over before continuing the boot - unless I get the time from a
> network time server!"
>
> This is inconvenient and frustrating at times. Netware IPX/SPX is
> basically Xerox XNS implemented pretty much unchanged; does anyone
> happen to know if a Netware server can provide network time server
> functions - and in a way that a Xerox workstation would grok?
>
> 2. I haven't powered up my 6085s in a long time - at least 5 years;
> maybe 10 for some of them. The results have been most disappointing.
> They won't even *start* POST - and/or they give a rolling screen with
> no sync - and/or a blank screen - and/or they pass POST but won't boot
> with an 0151 error. I've tracked these down in most cases to flaky IOB
> boards. These boards hold the system PROMs. Anyone else seen similar
> issues? Could it be bit rot in the PROMs? Is that a known thing with
> 6085s?
My experience (which is admittedly limited) is that removing socketed 
chips, cleaning with contact cleaner, and re-seating the chips can make 
a pretty big difference.  This includes the CLCC-style socketed chips.

I'd also make sure none of the backplane pins have gotten bent while 
swapping boards, just for good measure.

- Josh

>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>


From jim.austin at york.ac.uk  Tue Feb 16 05:50:09 2016
From: jim.austin at york.ac.uk (Jim Austin)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:50:09 +0000
Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale
In-Reply-To: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>
References: <56C22B8E.3090300@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <8C4CBA3E-6A57-408C-8429-31A80CEB6981@york.ac.uk>

might be worth a shot !

> On 15 Feb 2016, at 19:48, Andreas Sikkema <ramdyne at gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We at Hack42 have an Apple Lisa 2/10 for sale at
> http://www.ebay.nl/itm/121893065311.
> 
> When we powered it up for the last time 18 months ago, it appeared to be
> working (no nasty smells etc) but we didn't test it very much. What has
> happened since is anybody's guess.
> 
> Note: shipping to the US is *really* expensive, but within Europe is
> only slightly less painful (with packaging it'll reach 25kg easily).
> Pickup is an option.
> 
> -- 
> Andreas

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue Feb 16 13:36:53 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:36:53 -0800
Subject: For sale PDP 11/45 + TU56 + more
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuO_OHkTRkZCgXNsxRNs6WuurXn53AYa_HEgC-=Av8uywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFYaDtFxCk4OLAgApEGp=rhxgdJ+ktbo6w0sYZ+xNpg4i9jhPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuO_OHkTRkZCgXNsxRNs6WuurXn53AYa_HEgC-=Av8uywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_AfqRqdn41ff9HX3kxpgQy8=Z2+qWJnJf=R5CFuUD=Aw@mail.gmail.com>

I will 2nd Paul's response. All it needs is some disk

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> The story of my life- a day late or the other side of the pond....
>
> Sounds like a wonderful system.
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Jasper Wijnands <
> jasper.wijnands at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > For sale rare PDP 11/45 mini computer
> > Included:
> > - TU56 Tape transport
> > - Cardbuses
> > - Original DEC Schematics
> >
> > Accepting offers. Please mail to jasper.wijnands at gmail.com. Located in
> The
> > Netherlands.
> > Kind regards,
> > Jasper Wijnands
> >
> > pictures:
> >
> > [image: undefined]
> > [image: undefined]
> > [image: undefined]
> > [image: undefined]
> >
> > [image: undefined]
> > [image: undefined]
> >
>
>

From uribecosta123 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 16 22:05:08 2016
From: uribecosta123 at gmail.com (Jose Manuel)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 05:05:08 +0100
Subject: Kim 1
Message-ID: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Kim 1 board.
Please contact.
Thanks.

From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Tue Feb 16 23:59:20 2016
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 06:59:20 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
Message-ID: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>

> Hi,
>
> Is anyone interested in PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems? We at Hack42 have no
> idea what to do with them. We need to downsize and these take up a
> significant amount of our space.
>
> See http://dev.ramdyne.nl/IMG_2750.JPG for photograph of the stack.
>
> If you know other people who are interested in beasts like these, please
> pass this information on.
> -- 
> Andreas

Looks like interesting machinery from a German manufacturer!

There is a short blurb about them on de:wp (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus_Workstations) saying the PCS QU68000 were based on (who'd have guessed...) a 68000 processor on a QBus (!) while the later models sold under the CADMUS trademark held 68020/030 and, from 1985 on, MIPS RISC processors. They ran MUNIX, a V7 UNIX derivate, with some quite sophisticated cluster integration (network boot, "Newcastle connection" common superroot namespace, networked block devices) enabled by a board called the Intelligent Communications Controller.
The outfit even still seems to stick around here (https://www.pcs.com/en/company/history/the-history-of-pcs/), albeit manufacturing access/time registration/industrial data terminals nowadays.

As usual, if somebody from Germany conducts an operation on those and doesn't know where to put all of them, I'm willing to help out with collecting and re-homing. (I may also have an opportunity to collect a couple of them in the Netherlands if there are any left by/can be held onto until end of May 2016. I'd wish for one of each significantly different type but this is not a reservation but a "last resort" deal if they'd go to trash otherwise. Basically, if anyone else comes along offering a good home for them, I'm happy to stand back.)

TIA,

Arno

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 12 05:18:52 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 11:18:52 +0000
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going on
 vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
Message-ID: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>

By the way I found a 900gig of old computer manuals 1955 - 1992 PDF
files just trying to find some seeders grrrrrrr I will let yall know
when they are done downloading!
-- 
*Mikes ATC Shop A how To Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5OzVS_CmCOLjjztbRiPuKQ?view_as=public
405-481-4715 *


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 00:26:11 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 23:26:11 -0700
Subject: For sale PDP 11/45 + TU56 + more
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_AfqRqdn41ff9HX3kxpgQy8=Z2+qWJnJf=R5CFuUD=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFYaDtFxCk4OLAgApEGp=rhxgdJ+ktbo6w0sYZ+xNpg4i9jhPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuO_OHkTRkZCgXNsxRNs6WuurXn53AYa_HEgC-=Av8uywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA-F0u_AfqRqdn41ff9HX3kxpgQy8=Z2+qWJnJf=R5CFuUD=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSuMLo_1DpuNFkrGXqbnzv=vbog40XhV46zUA_uHwrcXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Pete Lancashire
<pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> I will 2nd Paul's response. All it needs is some disk

It might be nice, but TU56 "disks" should work just fine.  :-)

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 01:23:01 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 00:23:01 -0700
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQbVMVYZTOmrfBA-hpah8WrqxxC-vnonZYfWu_UE7t-MA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you process (image) 9-track tape?

Not at the moment, alas. I have a SCSI 9-track, but it's presently
about a 20 hour drive away from here.

> I have quite a few tapes with
> DIBOL-related packages on them.  Whether any of them are actual DEC
> DIBOL, I don't know yet.  I can work up a list of titles/numbers
> soon-ish.  I do have a SCSI 9-track drive but it's not easily
> accessible at the moment (nor is the time to read them in.)  I'd be
> happy to send them off to someone who could, though.

I'd definitely be interested to know what you've got. Maybe someone
else might be willing to image the tapes sooner, but if not, I'll let
you know when I get my 9-track set up again.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 01:24:17 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 00:24:17 -0700
Subject: PDP-11 COBOL-11 or COBOL-81? (was Re: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, 
 or CTS-500?)
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT6j5BzBWGV7xNNefYOVFwyV-fG+Z91Bqxct81WRXC-CQ@mail.gmail.com>

DIBOL-11 seems quite rare these days. Is COBOL-11 or COBOL-81 any
easier to find?

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 02:28:48 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 00:28:48 -0800
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQbVMVYZTOmrfBA-hpah8WrqxxC-vnonZYfWu_UE7t-MA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQbVMVYZTOmrfBA-hpah8WrqxxC-vnonZYfWu_UE7t-MA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E5304FE-3204-4F2A-8569-992293F424C4@gmail.com>

All of my 9 tracks are working right now, I could give it a try. I can only read 1600 and 6250 bpi. Contact me off list if interested.
Marc

> On Feb 16, 2016, at 11:23 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can you process (image) 9-track tape?
> 
> Not at the moment, alas. I have a SCSI 9-track, but it's presently
> about a 20 hour drive away from here.
> 
>> I have quite a few tapes with
>> DIBOL-related packages on them.  Whether any of them are actual DEC
>> DIBOL, I don't know yet.  I can work up a list of titles/numbers
>> soon-ish.  I do have a SCSI 9-track drive but it's not easily
>> accessible at the moment (nor is the time to read them in.)  I'd be
>> happy to send them off to someone who could, though.
> 
> I'd definitely be interested to know what you've got. Maybe someone
> else might be willing to image the tapes sooner, but if not, I'll let
> you know when I get my 9-track set up again.

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Feb 17 04:08:49 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:08:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016, Jose Manuel wrote:
> I have a Kim 1 board.
> Please contact.

So what? We have at least half a dozen KIM-1, some with expansion boxes, 
EPROM burners, memory extension, etc.
;-)

Christian

From ed at groenenberg.net  Wed Feb 17 01:45:09 2016
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 08:45:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-
 bs66>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
Message-ID: <27385.81.30.38.129.1455695109.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>

On Wed, February 17, 2016 06:59, Arno Kletzander wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is anyone interested in PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems? We at Hack42 have no
>> idea what to do with them. We need to downsize and these take up a
>> significant amount of our space.
>>
>> See http://dev.ramdyne.nl/IMG_2750.JPG for photograph of the stack.
>>
>> If you know other people who are interested in beasts like these, please
>> pass this information on.
>> --
>> Andreas
>
> Looks like interesting machinery from a German manufacturer!
>
> There is a short blurb about them on de:wp
> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus_Workstations) saying the PCS QU68000
> were based on (who'd have guessed...) a 68000 processor on a QBus (!)
> while the later models sold under the CADMUS trademark held 68020/030 and,
> from 1985 on, MIPS RISC processors. They ran MUNIX, a V7 UNIX derivate,
> with some quite sophisticated cluster integration (network boot,
> "Newcastle connection" common superroot namespace, networked block
> devices) enabled by a board called the Intelligent Communications
> Controller.
> The outfit even still seems to stick around here
> (https://www.pcs.com/en/company/history/the-history-of-pcs/), albeit
> manufacturing access/time registration/industrial data terminals nowadays.
>
> As usual, if somebody from Germany conducts an operation on those and
> doesn't know where to put all of them, I'm willing to help out with
> collecting and re-homing. (I may also have an opportunity to collect a
> couple of them in the Netherlands if there are any left by/can be held
> onto until end of May 2016. I'd wish for one of each significantly
> different type but this is not a reservation but a "last resort" deal if
> they'd go to trash otherwise. Basically, if anyone else comes along
> offering a good home for them, I'm happy to stand back.)
>
> TIA,
>
> Arno
>

Yes, those were nice machines. I worked with these systems in '84 - '87
and did visit their premises in Munich a few times. It was a small
office/factory building in the mids of a housing area.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.
BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN
LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz



From pk1234 at web.de  Wed Feb 17 06:47:27 2016
From: pk1234 at web.de (Peter Koch)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 13:47:27 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
Message-ID: <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>

Hallo Arno,

Mit diesen Cadmus-Maschinen habe ich meine ersten Unix-Erfahrungen gemacht,
bis hin zum Kopilieren von Kernel-Ewiterungen, mit denen man diese Maschine
per serieller Leitung Punkt-zu.Punkt verbinden konnte. Mein Highlight war
die erfolgreiche TeX-Kompilierung auf diesen Maschinen mit Programmierung
einer Ansteuerung des allerersten Laserdruckers

Ich h?tte nicht gedacht, dass ich solche Ger?te noch mal sehe, bis ich
letztes Jahr zuf?llig erfahren habe, dass Pierre Gebhardt noch so ein Ger?t
besitzt und sogar bereit w?re, es mir zu ?berlassen. Aber was will man mit
einem defekten Ger?t ohne Ersatzteile? Hat man dagegen mehrere dieser
Kisten, dann steigt die Wahrscheinlichkeit daraus etwas funktionierende
zuzammenzu basteln ( wenn man denn gen?gend Zeit und Platz :-) )

Wo stehen denn die Ger?te - ich selber wohne in Duisburg? Anschauen w?rde
ich mir die gerne mal. Und wenn ich irgendwie Platz schaffen kann, dann
nehme ich auch einen Teil davon in gute H?nde.

Viele Gr??e

Peter

-- 
Peter Koch
Passauer Strasse 32, 47249 Duisburg
Tel.: 0172 2470263

From ramdyne at gmx.net  Wed Feb 17 07:01:50 2016
From: ramdyne at gmx.net (Andreas Sikkema)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 14:01:50 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
 <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABkXqaPyUNyfKPeftrk11sVT0-TM6-qmA7OfjC74=6xMpfwnHw@mail.gmail.com>

> Wo stehen denn die Ger?te - ich selber wohne in Duisburg? Anschauen w?rde
> ich mir die gerne mal. Und wenn ich irgendwie Platz schaffen kann, dann
> nehme ich auch einen Teil davon in gute H?nde.

So the stack of PCS machines is in Arnhem, the Netherlands. I have one
gentleman from Poland who is interested who contacted me privately.
Then there's a few people in this thread.

Shipping these machines (using a service like UPS/Fedex) will be
expensive, I guesstimate their weight to be around 25kg each. There
might be cheaper options, but they will cost considerable more time to
make happen. Local pickup is very much preferred.

Can everyone who is interested send me an email to bix at hack42.nl?

-- 
Andreas

From pk1234 at web.de  Wed Feb 17 07:13:31 2016
From: pk1234 at web.de (Peter Koch)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 14:13:31 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
 <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhCz3RaPzg26K71wo5=F6sJb58dtBy9Out4hmsF0HPj1v8VFg@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry folks - someone forwarded a posting from this list to my account and
I did not realize that the reply-address was cctalk.

So I answered in german - but I guess Cadmus machines with Bavarian-style
Unix (rumors are the M in MUNIX abbreviates Munich) is interesting to
germans only.

But this gives me the opportunity to ask wether anybody else out there still
owns Cadmus equipment. If I will take these machines I might need spare
parts and boot media (or tape images). Anybody has such stuff?

Any former PCS employee on this list?

Peter

Am 17. Februar 2016 um 13:47 schrieb Peter Koch:

>
> Hallo Arno,
>
> Mit diesen Cadmus-Maschinen habe ich meine ersten Unix-Erfahrungen
> gemacht, bis hin zum Kopilieren von Kernel-Ewiterungen, mit denen man diese
> Maschine per serieller Leitung Punkt-zu.Punkt verbinden konnte. Mein
> Highlight war die erfolgreiche TeX-Kompilierung auf diesen Maschinen mit
> Programmierung einer Ansteuerung des allerersten Laserdruckers
>
> Ich h?tte nicht gedacht, dass ich solche Ger?te noch mal sehe, bis ich
> letztes Jahr zuf?llig erfahren habe, dass Pierre Gebhardt noch so ein Ger?t
> besitzt und sogar bereit w?re, es mir zu ?berlassen. Aber was will man mit
> einem defekten Ger?t ohne Ersatzteile? Hat man dagegen mehrere dieser
> Kisten, dann steigt die Wahrscheinlichkeit daraus etwas funktionierende
> zuzammenzu basteln ( wenn man denn gen?gend Zeit und Platz :-) )
>
> Wo stehen denn die Ger?te - ich selber wohne in Duisburg? Anschauen w?rde
> ich mir die gerne mal. Und wenn ich irgendwie Platz schaffen kann, dann
> nehme ich auch einen Teil davon in gute H?nde.
>

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 17 08:30:47 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 08:30:47 -0600
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001d1698f$cb238ec0$616aac40$@classiccmp.org>

Silent wrote...
------
Can you process (image) 9-track tape?  I have quite a few tapes with DIBOL-related packages on them.  
------

Silent;

I have a rack set up just for imaging tapes (and other things). I can get your tapes moved to .tap files very quickly.

J



From mazzinia at tin.it  Wed Feb 17 09:46:35 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 16:46:35 +0100
Subject: R: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <CABkXqaPyUNyfKPeftrk11sVT0-TM6-qmA7OfjC74=6xMpfwnHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
 <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABkXqaPyUNyfKPeftrk11sVT0-TM6-qmA7OfjC74=6xMpfwnHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c301d1699a$63735d40$2a5a17c0$@tin.it>

May I suggest to use ecoparcel.eu ? They have usually good deals within Europe, a fraction than using ups/fedex, especially if the weight goes over 20 - 40kg... I would estimate in the 30e range for 25kg

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Andreas Sikkema
Inviato: mercoled? 17 febbraio 2016 14:02
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems

> Wo stehen denn die Ger?te - ich selber wohne in Duisburg? Anschauen 
> w?rde ich mir die gerne mal. Und wenn ich irgendwie Platz schaffen 
> kann, dann nehme ich auch einen Teil davon in gute H?nde.

So the stack of PCS machines is in Arnhem, the Netherlands. I have one gentleman from Poland who is interested who contacted me privately.
Then there's a few people in this thread.

Shipping these machines (using a service like UPS/Fedex) will be expensive, I guesstimate their weight to be around 25kg each. There might be cheaper options, but they will cost considerable more time to make happen. Local pickup is very much preferred.

Can everyone who is interested send me an email to bix at hack42.nl?

--
Andreas


From sieler at allegro.com  Wed Feb 17 12:12:27 2016
From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:12:27 -0800
Subject: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
Message-ID: <1C95921D-0E38-4A2E-A966-975F60FCDF83@allegro.com>

Hi,

There may be an HP 250 available in Germany.

If interested, please email me directly, sieler at allegro.com

thanks,

Stan

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 17 12:42:40 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 12:42:40 -0600
Subject: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
In-Reply-To: <1C95921D-0E38-4A2E-A966-975F60FCDF83@allegro.com>
References: <1C95921D-0E38-4A2E-A966-975F60FCDF83@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <000001d169b2$fb3c1910$f1b44b30$@classiccmp.org>

Stan wrote...
---------
There may be an HP 250 available in Germany.

If interested, please email me directly, sieler at allegro.com
----------
Wow, very nice. I'm not up for a rescue in Germany, but curious - desk model
or pedestal model??

Jay



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Feb 17 13:10:42 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 13:10:42 -0600
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <002001d1698f$cb238ec0$616aac40$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001d1698f$cb238ec0$616aac40$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <000801d169b6$e5d263f0$b1772bd0$@classiccmp.org>

I should add... my tape conversion setup can do 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250.
The same rig is also set up with all the common floppy drives - including 8", zip drives, etc.

It's my "media conversion" rack. Which also houses my Hercules and 3174 rig :)

J



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Feb 17 13:19:03 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:19:03 -0800
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <000801d169b6$e5d263f0$b1772bd0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001d1698f$cb238ec0$616aac40$@classiccmp.org>
 <000801d169b6$e5d263f0$b1772bd0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <3BC5ACBF-FBE7-4461-9425-688C9152C65B@shiresoft.com>

Going back to the OP?s request.

I looked through my stack of RK05 packs and found a pack labelled
RT V4, DIBOL V6.  It is not a DEC distribution and I haven?t checked
to see what?s actually on it (or even if the pack is any good).

While rummaging around through the various packs, I did find a couple
of DEC distribution packs labelled RSX11 Cobol (can?t remember the
original wording).

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 11:10 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I should add... my tape conversion setup can do 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250.
> The same rig is also set up with all the common floppy drives - including 8", zip drives, etc.
> 
> It's my "media conversion" rack. Which also houses my Hercules and 3174 rig :)
> 
> J
> 
> 


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 13:59:03 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:59:03 -0800
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <000801d169b6$e5d263f0$b1772bd0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAFrGgTRGqiaUS5qNFgXbzb6-iYkuL3Fbt8_iUbiK=KX41txSow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFq=8aUeBTZEJVZWWcU8ze4+03S7PRouzJO-i-nNAE2aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001d1698f$cb238ec0$616aac40$@classiccmp.org>
 <000801d169b6$e5d263f0$b1772bd0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <FC72DA01-9F83-47E5-87BA-C236235048D1@gmail.com>

You win :-)
Marc




On 2/17/16, 11:10 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Jay West" <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>I should add... my tape conversion setup can do 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250.
>The same rig is also set up with all the common floppy drives - including 8", zip drives, etc.
>
>It's my "media conversion" rack. Which also houses my Hercules and 3174 rig :)
>
>J
>
>


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Wed Feb 17 14:02:29 2016
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:02:29 +0100
Subject: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
In-Reply-To: <000001d169b2$fb3c1910$f1b44b30$@classiccmp.org>
References: <1C95921D-0E38-4A2E-A966-975F60FCDF83@allegro.com>
 <000001d169b2$fb3c1910$f1b44b30$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <011c01d169be$224169b0$66c43d10$@xs4all.nl>


> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West
> Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 19:43
> Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Onderwerp: RE: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
> 
> Stan wrote...
> ---------
> There may be an HP 250 available in Germany.
> 
> If interested, please email me directly, sieler at allegro.com
> ----------
> Wow, very nice. I'm not up for a rescue in Germany, but curious - desk
model or
> pedestal model??
> 
> Jay

It's gone the owner sold it through ebay to a museum in Germany.

-Rik


From shadoooo at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 14:30:14 2016
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:30:14 +0100
Subject: DEC VT30-H info
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsWGgSXmNRUnRdi-UaSwV46W=K6521CpxdUO00+XSennkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWGgSXmNRUnRdi-UaSwV46W=K6521CpxdUO00+XSennkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsXX+a7HDqxC=gSE84D3St0uOoikFdg-nwRhL1y7c-vswg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I just acquired two DEC modules, M8295 and M7114.
These appear to be a video system for unibus, named VT30-H.
I don't find any info about these boards...
There's some documentation around?
Is the system complete or some other card is required?

Thanks
Andrea

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 17 14:47:13 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:47:13 +0100
Subject: DEC VT30-H info
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXX+a7HDqxC=gSE84D3St0uOoikFdg-nwRhL1y7c-vswg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWGgSXmNRUnRdi-UaSwV46W=K6521CpxdUO00+XSennkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXX+a7HDqxC=gSE84D3St0uOoikFdg-nwRhL1y7c-vswg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS277B1615FDBF8BA313957586AE0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: shadoooo 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:30 PM 
To: cctech at classiccmp.org 
Subject: DEC VT30-H info 

Hello,
I just acquired two DEC modules, M8295 and M7114.
These appear to be a video system for unibus, named VT30-H.
I don't find any info about these boards...
There's some documentation around?
Is the system complete or some other card is required?

Thanks
Andrea

----------
Just a tidbit of info:
www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/comm/interface/vt30h/vt30h-info.html
or go the www.pdp-11.nl and open "comm -> interfaces -> VT30H".

- Henk

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 15:32:08 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:32:08 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe we can salvage this thread..

If you +do+ happen to be interested in owning an SBC / digital computer
trainer, there are still quite a few Heathkit ET-3400 up on eBay at the
moment. Prices have come up a bit - though not much - from a year ago, when
they were selling for ~$40.00 USD.

Nice little units, and full documentation is freely available.

Now a question..

On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips inside
there, or...?

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:08 AM, Christian Corti <
cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Feb 2016, Jose Manuel wrote:
>
>> I have a Kim 1 board.
>> Please contact.
>>
>
> So what? We have at least half a dozen KIM-1, some with expansion boxes,
> EPROM burners, memory extension, etc.
> ;-)
>
> Christian
>

From mikelee at tdh.com  Wed Feb 17 16:34:59 2016
From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 16:34:59 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C4F593.2000502@tdh.com>

On 2/17/2016 3:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips inside
> there, or...?
DIP switches, since it's a trainer, it appears they are used to create 
"faults" to troubleshoot.

I've got one, but I know little to nothing about it other than the 
physical hardware, and if anyone has the lab manuals I'd love to see 
those.  Which would explain the mystery of these DIP switches.

From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Feb 17 16:39:45 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 14:39:45 -0800
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>



On 2/17/2016 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> Maybe we can salvage this thread..
>
> If you +do+ happen to be interested in owning an SBC / digital computer
> trainer, there are still quite a few Heathkit ET-3400 up on eBay at the
> moment. Prices have come up a bit - though not much - from a year ago, when
> they were selling for ~$40.00 USD.
>
> Nice little units, and full documentation is freely available.
>
> Now a question..
>
> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips inside
> there, or...?
>
I've got the 68HC11 version of the ET-3800 just acquired for probably 
more than I should have.  Anyone have any software / experience with them?

There appears to be a big box on Ebay for sale (x a couple of units for 
sale separately) for this as well, or maybe it is for the 3400.

I'd be interested in what people have.  Mine came with the processor 
personality and the memory module only.

thanks
Jim


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 17:33:42 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 18:33:42 -0500
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>

I've got one too, but please don't contact me about it.  Seriously. I will
never tell you the super magic secret.  Forget I said that.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:39 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/17/2016 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> Maybe we can salvage this thread..
>>
>> If you +do+ happen to be interested in owning an SBC / digital computer
>> trainer, there are still quite a few Heathkit ET-3400 up on eBay at the
>> moment. Prices have come up a bit - though not much - from a year ago,
>> when
>> they were selling for ~$40.00 USD.
>>
>> Nice little units, and full documentation is freely available.
>>
>> Now a question..
>>
>> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
>> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips
>> inside
>> there, or...?
>>
>> I've got the 68HC11 version of the ET-3800 just acquired for probably
> more than I should have.  Anyone have any software / experience with them?
>
> There appears to be a big box on Ebay for sale (x a couple of units for
> sale separately) for this as well, or maybe it is for the 3400.
>
> I'd be interested in what people have.  Mine came with the processor
> personality and the memory module only.
>
> thanks
> Jim
>
>


-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 19:23:40 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 19:23:40 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
 <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>

"On 2/17/2016 3:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:

> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips inside
> there, or...?
>
DIP switches, since it's a trainer, it appears they are used to create
"faults" to troubleshoot."

Just to be clear - you +know+ for a fact there are DIP switches inside, but
you only +surmise+ they are for creating fault conditions?

As mentioned, I was thinking either pricey components or possibly some sort
of anti-theft device.. opening the door exposes a feature that allows the
unit to be tethered to a bench.

This is before the days of commodity EEPROM, so it's not like they need to
write-protect firmware, resident software, etc.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've got one too, but please don't contact me about it.  Seriously. I will
> never tell you the super magic secret.  Forget I said that.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:39 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 2/17/2016 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe we can salvage this thread..
> >>
> >> If you +do+ happen to be interested in owning an SBC / digital computer
> >> trainer, there are still quite a few Heathkit ET-3400 up on eBay at the
> >> moment. Prices have come up a bit - though not much - from a year ago,
> >> when
> >> they were selling for ~$40.00 USD.
> >>
> >> Nice little units, and full documentation is freely available.
> >>
> >> Now a question..
> >>
> >> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
> >> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips
> >> inside
> >> there, or...?
> >>
> >> I've got the 68HC11 version of the ET-3800 just acquired for probably
> > more than I should have.  Anyone have any software / experience with
> them?
> >
> > There appears to be a big box on Ebay for sale (x a couple of units for
> > sale separately) for this as well, or maybe it is for the 3400.
> >
> > I'd be interested in what people have.  Mine came with the processor
> > personality and the memory module only.
> >
> > thanks
> > Jim
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> @ BillDeg:
> Web: vintagecomputer.net
> Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
> Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
> Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 19:24:56 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 19:24:56 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
 <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd65sSrRxSSRRgxss7Zv20tSyH99q2hYrsw2NLah62E9-g@mail.gmail.com>

"I've got one too, but please don't contact me about it.  Seriously. I will
never tell you the super magic secret.  Forget I said that."

Ok, I've forgotten that you said you'd never tell me.

So what's the box for? =P

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:23 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> "On 2/17/2016 3:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
>> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips
>> inside
>> there, or...?
>>
> DIP switches, since it's a trainer, it appears they are used to create
> "faults" to troubleshoot."
>
> Just to be clear - you +know+ for a fact there are DIP switches inside,
> but you only +surmise+ they are for creating fault conditions?
>
> As mentioned, I was thinking either pricey components or possibly some
> sort of anti-theft device.. opening the door exposes a feature that allows
> the unit to be tethered to a bench.
>
> This is before the days of commodity EEPROM, so it's not like they need to
> write-protect firmware, resident software, etc.
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:33 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I've got one too, but please don't contact me about it.  Seriously. I will
>> never tell you the super magic secret.  Forget I said that.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:39 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/17/2016 1:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>> >
>> >> Maybe we can salvage this thread..
>> >>
>> >> If you +do+ happen to be interested in owning an SBC / digital computer
>> >> trainer, there are still quite a few Heathkit ET-3400 up on eBay at the
>> >> moment. Prices have come up a bit - though not much - from a year ago,
>> >> when
>> >> they were selling for ~$40.00 USD.
>> >>
>> >> Nice little units, and full documentation is freely available.
>> >>
>> >> Now a question..
>> >>
>> >> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
>> >> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips
>> >> inside
>> >> there, or...?
>> >>
>> >> I've got the 68HC11 version of the ET-3800 just acquired for probably
>> > more than I should have.  Anyone have any software / experience with
>> them?
>> >
>> > There appears to be a big box on Ebay for sale (x a couple of units for
>> > sale separately) for this as well, or maybe it is for the 3400.
>> >
>> > I'd be interested in what people have.  Mine came with the processor
>> > personality and the memory module only.
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > Jim
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> @ BillDeg:
>> Web: vintagecomputer.net
>> Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
>> Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
>> Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
>>
>
>

From rickb at bensene.com  Wed Feb 17 19:52:28 2016
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 17:52:28 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A046@mail.bensene.com>

Brent Hilpert wrote:

> Apparently there actually is an equivalent EPROM, according to this
> datasheet for the MM4203/MM5203 EPROM:
> 	http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-006/Scans-
> 00137265.pdf
> 
> It states they are pin-compatible to the MM5213/MM5231 mask ROMs.
> The EPROM even has the selectable configuration mentioned by Rick.
> (This is the only mention I've found of the 5231, I haven't come
across this
> Nat Semi ROM series before.)

A great find!  Sadly, though, I can't find that even the Data I/O 29B
Unipak supports programming this device.
My other ROM programmers don't support the MM5203, either.  I suspect
that this was a fairly obscure device.

> 
> Similar pinout to the 1702 (quite different than the industry standard
of the
> 2708,2716,2732,etc.)

Yes, but there are enough differences that building an adapter, and
getting it to work is probably not worth the effort.
> 
> I expect they're too early and too uncommon to be covered by anything
> other than a specifically-targeted programmer from the period.

I suspect that National probably offered some kind of programmer for
these devices, but, as Brent said, it was probably very targeted to the
specific device family.  Finding something like this today is probably
like finding Hen's Teeth.

> It shouldn't be difficult to read them either way - adapter for an
EPROM
> reader or microcontroller, with additional power supplies as
necessary,
> might have to consider power-sequencing issues though.

I think that this is the approach that I'm going to have to take.  I
have a little microprocessor development system that has a bunch of
programmable TTL I/Os (probably need some pullups on the outputs to
drive the address lines), and perhaps some kind of switching on the -12V
supply to keep the power levels appropriate, and write a little code to
cycle through the address lines and grab the data, and spit it out in
serial form to a PC.
> 
> Rick, what calculator are they in?, I'd be interested in looking it up
on your
> site.

I don't have it documented on the Old Calculator Museum site yet,
because I generally only put calculators up on the online exhibits page
that are fully operational.  I've got a slew of machines that aren't on
the website because they require repair.  Sadly, repair on these old
machines can chew up a huge amount of time, so it's slow going.  Maybe I
have to change my policy on this, but it's a tough call.

The calculator in question is a Singer/Friden 1155A. 

It is a desktop printing scientific programmable calculator.   It is
quite sophisticated, but, by the time it came to market (mid-1972),
Singer had pretty much decided that the calculator biz was a bust, and
has pretty much killed off what was left of Friden's calculator
development team.  Along with that, Hewlett Packard, Computer Design
Corp., and Wang pretty much owned the high-end calculator market, making
it tough for anyone else to compete.

The machine is rather uncommon, because of the factors about, and also
because simply didn't sell very well, mostly due to a lack of desire or
understanding on the part of Singer's salesforce to figure out what
markets to sell it into.  

The introduced machine used a modified version of the serial printer
used in earlier 115x-series calculators. 
It uses three TI(TMS3414LC)  or Signetics equivalent 1K-bit MOS shift
registers for program storage, and four  Intel 1101A MOS SRAM chips for
microcode internal working registers and memory register storage.    The
machine has 20 memory registers accessible to the  user.

A later version of the 1155, called the 1155A, switched from four
1101A's to eight 2102 SRAM chips, and upped the memory register capacity
to 100 registers.  Of course, some firmware changes were made to
accommodate the additional RAM.

The machine uses SSI and MSI DTL and TTL logic for the ALU, Data
Routing, and the timing and control logic.  

I do have microcode ROM listings for the 1555, but since the machine I
have is the 1155A, there are likely to be some changes, both in terms of
fixes from the original firmware, as well as the modifications needed to
make it work with the additional RAM.     So, if a ROM that contains
changes from the original code is bad...well, it's not terribly likely
that I'll be able to fix it unless I can reverse-engineer the microcode.
Yet more time that I probably won't ever have.

-Rick Bensene

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 21:44:18 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:44:18 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd59tKpetBAHTmbLP7LEFwmRUuoMbzTcv5Qo=-rjxOBkhw@mail.gmail.com>

Since the thread is still rolling..

Anyone on the US side have a KIM-1 they'd be willing to re-home? The SBCs
are right in my collecting niche, and I'd love to own a KIM or one of the
other 6502 / 8600 / Z-80 SBCs.

Up front, I'd most likely have to offer a trade or trade + cash for it.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 4:08 AM, Christian Corti <
cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Feb 2016, Jose Manuel wrote:
>
>> I have a Kim 1 board.
>> Please contact.
>>
>
> So what? We have at least half a dozen KIM-1, some with expansion boxes,
> EPROM burners, memory extension, etc.
> ;-)
>
> Christian
>

From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Wed Feb 17 22:20:50 2016
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 23:20:50 -0500
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>

Hi Mike,
I would be happy to make these manuals available on one of my home computers.  I don't know exactly how fast my upload speed is, but my download speed is 2MB/s.  I'll be happy to do my part.  I can find 900GB of space somewhere.  Please let me know if I can help.

Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc.rr.com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 6:19 AM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
> 
> By the way I found a 900gig of old computer manuals 1955 - 1992 PDF files just trying to find some seeders grrrrrrr I will let yall know
> when they are done downloading!
> --
> *Mikes ATC Shop A how To Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5OzVS_CmCOLjjztbRiPuKQ?view_as=public
> 405-481-4715 *


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Feb 17 22:25:52 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 20:25:52 -0800
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
 <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5F551B9-6875-41C1-9FBE-DF26A346A151@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-17, at 5:23 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> "On 2/17/2016 3:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> 
>> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
>> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips inside
>> there, or...?
>> 
> DIP switches, since it's a trainer, it appears they are used to create
> "faults" to troubleshoot."
> 
> Just to be clear - you +know+ for a fact there are DIP switches inside, but
> you only +surmise+ they are for creating fault conditions?


Well, you might consider this near example:
	http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/micros.htm

Look down the page for the LabVolt 355.

I forget who "dvq" is, I think they were or are on the list.


> As mentioned, I was thinking either pricey components or possibly some sort
> of anti-theft device.. opening the door exposes a feature that allows the
> unit to be tethered to a bench.
> 
> This is before the days of commodity EEPROM, so it's not like they need to
> write-protect firmware, resident software, etc.


From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 22:29:53 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 20:29:53 -0800
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>

I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from 
Bitsavers and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not to 
open up that can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already available 
online.

- Josh

On 2/17/16 8:20 PM, Kip Koon wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> I would be happy to make these manuals available on one of my home computers.  I don't know exactly how fast my upload speed is, but my download speed is 2MB/s.  I'll be happy to do my part.  I can find 900GB of space somewhere.  Please let me know if I can help.
>
> Kip Koon
> computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 6:19 AM
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
>>
>> By the way I found a 900gig of old computer manuals 1955 - 1992 PDF files just trying to find some seeders grrrrrrr I will let yall know
>> when they are done downloading!
>> --
>> *Mikes ATC Shop A how To Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5OzVS_CmCOLjjztbRiPuKQ?view_as=public
>> 405-481-4715 *
>


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 22:58:56 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 22:58:56 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <B5F551B9-6875-41C1-9FBE-DF26A346A151@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
 <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
 <B5F551B9-6875-41C1-9FBE-DF26A346A151@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5bJjgQmSTbZbJNbrHFoePOZL4EDy9FUjHLn29KhTTiiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Brent,

"The 355 top opened: under the locked cover, switches can be set to
introduce faults into the circuit."

Thanks.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-Feb-17, at 5:23 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> > "On 2/17/2016 3:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> >
> >> On the LabVolt SBC, there's a little keylock on the lower, left of the
> >> board. What's the purpose of the lock? Are there costly (RAM?) chips
> inside
> >> there, or...?
> >>
> > DIP switches, since it's a trainer, it appears they are used to create
> > "faults" to troubleshoot."
> >
> > Just to be clear - you +know+ for a fact there are DIP switches inside,
> but
> > you only +surmise+ they are for creating fault conditions?
>
>
> Well, you might consider this near example:
>         http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/micros.htm
>
> Look down the page for the LabVolt 355.
>
> I forget who "dvq" is, I think they were or are on the list.
>
>
> > As mentioned, I was thinking either pricey components or possibly some
> sort
> > of anti-theft device.. opening the door exposes a feature that allows the
> > unit to be tethered to a bench.
> >
> > This is before the days of commodity EEPROM, so it's not like they need
> to
> > write-protect firmware, resident software, etc.
>
>

From isking at uw.edu  Wed Feb 17 23:05:05 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:05:05 -0800
Subject: Kim 1
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd5bJjgQmSTbZbJNbrHFoePOZL4EDy9FUjHLn29KhTTiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADArW=fPyNRBznrWqb0_kAw3ZEeK=jvAZxtK0XrgkLDEGYcn0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602171026340.28979@linuxserv.home>
 <CAFjrmd4VFmGYupV5VCm3ZLaDvm2B69ES5JYc2j70pPozJUkT1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C4F6B1.8070403@jwsss.com>
 <CABGJBudR2m+D_UohXcNHxojv6YcFaaPJJASudGLzAtFEsyyxig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6MyTxRhyuoLsDDff1RNPb8xVQMG9ycBmWYimMqHHX97w@mail.gmail.com>
 <B5F551B9-6875-41C1-9FBE-DF26A346A151@cs.ubc.ca>
 <CAFjrmd5bJjgQmSTbZbJNbrHFoePOZL4EDy9FUjHLn29KhTTiiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03CV7CKEdNZnUXS14AfwvW_z5-pC5PwuG4RB_uE01FYag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 8:58 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> Brent,
>
> "The 355 top opened: under the locked cover, switches can be set to
> introduce faults into the circuit."
>
>
If this was intended to be an instructional tool, perhaps the keylocked
door was to prevent the Kobyashi Maru scenario, or rather, the hacking
thereof.  :-)

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 17 23:26:28 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 21:26:28 -0800
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com> <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C55604.8040000@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2016 08:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from
> Bitsavers and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not
> to open up that can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already
> available online.

My thought exactly.

--Chuck


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Feb 17 15:17:56 2016
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (pete)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 22:17:56 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
Message-ID: <56C4E384.6050301@dunnington.plus.com>

On 17/02/2016 06:59, Arno Kletzander wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is anyone interested in PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems? We at Hack42
>> have no idea what to do with them. We need to downsize and these
>> take up a significant amount of our space.
>>
>> See http://dev.ramdyne.nl/IMG_2750.JPG for photograph of the
>> stack.
>>
>> If you know other people who are interested in beasts like these,
>> please pass this information on. -- Andreas
>
> Looks like interesting machinery from a German manufacturer!
>
> There is a short blurb about them on de:wp
> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus_Workstations) saying the PCS
> QU68000 were based on (who'd have guessed...) a 68000 processor on a
> QBus (!) while the later models sold under the CADMUS trademark held
> 68020/030 and, from 1985 on, MIPS RISC processors. They ran MUNIX, a
> V7 UNIX derivate, with some quite sophisticated cluster integration
> (network boot, "Newcastle connection" common superroot namespace,
> networked block devices) enabled by a board called the Intelligent
> Communications Controller.

The Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh had some 68K CADMUS systems, 
which included a number of standard QBus boards and yes the OS was 
virtually 7th Edition.  When I got my 11/23 system (running real 
standard 7th edition, and including the original tapes) form them, I had 
a play with a CADMUS system.  it was quite a nice system, but one 
problem was that the quad-high CADMUS boards didn't have the same sort 
of stiffeners along the back edge that DEC boards do, so they sagged and 
had an occasional tendency to short out.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Wed Feb 17 16:16:34 2016
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 23:16:34 +0100
Subject: DEC VT30-H info
Message-ID: <56C4F142.8050001@gmail.com>

Hello Henk,
thanks for the link.
It talk about two boards (one hex and one quad). In effect mine are hex 
and quad.
But the hex board has three IDC connectors, while the quad only two.
My suspect is that the third connector could go to some other module.
Do you have the VT30-H system too?
Could we compare the boards?

About documentation: I can't find the Option Bulletin cited on the text.

Thanks
Andrea



From bryan at bceassociates.com  Wed Feb 17 16:56:12 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 17:56:12 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
Message-ID: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone.  I'm hoping that one of the VAX experts out there can help me
figure out how to get my 3100 booting.  I managed to cobble together the
necessary cabling and was able to run a "TEST 50" from the serial console.
Unfortunately my Google-fu isn't sufficient to help me figure out what the
results mean.  Here is what I'm getting below.  Any ideas where my problem
lies?

>>> test 50



KA42-A  V1.3
ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20

   MONO     0000.0001
 ? CLK      0000.0005
   NVR      0000.0001
 ? DZ       0000.4001
      00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
   MEM      0010.0001
      01000000
   MM       0000.0001
   FP       0000.0001
   IT       0000.0001
   SYS      0000.0001
   8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
   NI       0100.0001
>>>

Thanks,
Bryan

From isking at uw.edu  Wed Feb 17 17:26:34 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:26:34 -0800
Subject: DEC VT30-H info
In-Reply-To: <56C4F142.8050001@gmail.com>
References: <56C4F142.8050001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01ar1s5dn1_Cp-4pTawZgCM9sCOq5qwoVYPx7cBXEJLsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:16 PM, shadoooo <shadoooo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Henk,
> thanks for the link.
> It talk about two boards (one hex and one quad). In effect mine are hex
> and quad.
> But the hex board has three IDC connectors, while the quad only two.
> My suspect is that the third connector could go to some other module.
> Do you have the VT30-H system too?
> Could we compare the boards?
>
>
> My guess would be that the third IDC goes to a bulkhead connector for
video out.  Do two of them line up well, while the other is off by itself?

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 17 21:05:13 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 19:05:13 -0800
Subject: Old MOS Mask-Programmed ROM forgetfulness?
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A046@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A02A@mail.bensene.com>
 <56C2C25E.5060807@flippers.com>
 <CAFrGgTRk5beNMBNzsXbpGpzNcp0zvXOSg=OEPBu2unsb3vfZfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DA01F7D5-A398-4491-BDBA-003EF81BC1B1@cs.ubc.ca>
 <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A046@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8a5p+Lc6w_8aiqD-6Wi_aMFjm4=TFLe36WUJHkhSQHBA@mail.gmail.com>

I was about ready to recommend the same approach. Speed is not the issue.
Then when if the time ever comes to replace the part one could if have to
build a board to do any level/timing shifts.

A solution I've used before.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Rick Bensene <rickb at bensene.com> wrote:

> Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
> > Apparently there actually is an equivalent EPROM, according to this
> > datasheet for the MM4203/MM5203 EPROM:
> >       http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-006/Scans-
> > 00137265.pdf
> >
> > It states they are pin-compatible to the MM5213/MM5231 mask ROMs.
> > The EPROM even has the selectable configuration mentioned by Rick.
> > (This is the only mention I've found of the 5231, I haven't come
> across this
> > Nat Semi ROM series before.)
>
> A great find!  Sadly, though, I can't find that even the Data I/O 29B
> Unipak supports programming this device.
> My other ROM programmers don't support the MM5203, either.  I suspect
> that this was a fairly obscure device.
>
> >
> > Similar pinout to the 1702 (quite different than the industry standard
> of the
> > 2708,2716,2732,etc.)
>
> Yes, but there are enough differences that building an adapter, and
> getting it to work is probably not worth the effort.
> >
> > I expect they're too early and too uncommon to be covered by anything
> > other than a specifically-targeted programmer from the period.
>
> I suspect that National probably offered some kind of programmer for
> these devices, but, as Brent said, it was probably very targeted to the
> specific device family.  Finding something like this today is probably
> like finding Hen's Teeth.
>
> > It shouldn't be difficult to read them either way - adapter for an
> EPROM
> > reader or microcontroller, with additional power supplies as
> necessary,
> > might have to consider power-sequencing issues though.
>
> I think that this is the approach that I'm going to have to take.  I
> have a little microprocessor development system that has a bunch of
> programmable TTL I/Os (probably need some pullups on the outputs to
> drive the address lines), and perhaps some kind of switching on the -12V
> supply to keep the power levels appropriate, and write a little code to
> cycle through the address lines and grab the data, and spit it out in
> serial form to a PC.
> >
> > Rick, what calculator are they in?, I'd be interested in looking it up
> on your
> > site.
>
> I don't have it documented on the Old Calculator Museum site yet,
> because I generally only put calculators up on the online exhibits page
> that are fully operational.  I've got a slew of machines that aren't on
> the website because they require repair.  Sadly, repair on these old
> machines can chew up a huge amount of time, so it's slow going.  Maybe I
> have to change my policy on this, but it's a tough call.
>
> The calculator in question is a Singer/Friden 1155A.
>
> It is a desktop printing scientific programmable calculator.   It is
> quite sophisticated, but, by the time it came to market (mid-1972),
> Singer had pretty much decided that the calculator biz was a bust, and
> has pretty much killed off what was left of Friden's calculator
> development team.  Along with that, Hewlett Packard, Computer Design
> Corp., and Wang pretty much owned the high-end calculator market, making
> it tough for anyone else to compete.
>
> The machine is rather uncommon, because of the factors about, and also
> because simply didn't sell very well, mostly due to a lack of desire or
> understanding on the part of Singer's salesforce to figure out what
> markets to sell it into.
>
> The introduced machine used a modified version of the serial printer
> used in earlier 115x-series calculators.
> It uses three TI(TMS3414LC)  or Signetics equivalent 1K-bit MOS shift
> registers for program storage, and four  Intel 1101A MOS SRAM chips for
> microcode internal working registers and memory register storage.    The
> machine has 20 memory registers accessible to the  user.
>
> A later version of the 1155, called the 1155A, switched from four
> 1101A's to eight 2102 SRAM chips, and upped the memory register capacity
> to 100 registers.  Of course, some firmware changes were made to
> accommodate the additional RAM.
>
> The machine uses SSI and MSI DTL and TTL logic for the ALU, Data
> Routing, and the timing and control logic.
>
> I do have microcode ROM listings for the 1555, but since the machine I
> have is the 1155A, there are likely to be some changes, both in terms of
> fixes from the original firmware, as well as the modifications needed to
> make it work with the additional RAM.     So, if a ROM that contains
> changes from the original code is bad...well, it's not terribly likely
> that I'll be able to fix it unless I can reverse-engineer the microcode.
> Yet more time that I probably won't ever have.
>
> -Rick Bensene
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 00:04:51 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 01:04:51 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucBO15QVi9bnQ7BAMgHUFSaBAEg2ARRxnrN-J=P2YSnpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 18, 2016 12:56 AM, "Bryan C. Everly" <bryan at bceassociates.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone.  I'm hoping that one of the VAX experts out there can help me
> figure out how to get my 3100 booting.  I managed to cobble together the
> necessary cabling and was able to run a "TEST 50" from the serial console.
> Unfortunately my Google-fu isn't sufficient to help me figure out what the
> results mean.  Here is what I'm getting below.  Any ideas where my problem
> lies?
>
> >>> test 50
>
>
>
> KA42-A  V1.3
> ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
>
>    MONO     0000.0001
>  ? CLK      0000.0005
>    NVR      0000.0001
>  ? DZ       0000.4001
>       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
>    MEM      0010.0001
>       01000000
>    MM       0000.0001
>    FP       0000.0001
>    IT       0000.0001
>    SYS      0000.0001
>    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
>    NI       0100.0001
> >>>
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan

Does not necessarily mean much, bad battery? Was there a reason why you
chose to run test 50, from an earlier post?

I may have missed earlier posts on this machine, but what does the command
"show dev" reveal at the >>> prompt?

I have a thread on my site about booting my 3100 that might help if you can
boot or partially boot.  Search for "3100" on my site.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 02:00:49 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:00:49 +0100
Subject: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
In-Reply-To: <011c01d169be$224169b0$66c43d10$@xs4all.nl>
References: <1C95921D-0E38-4A2E-A966-975F60FCDF83@allegro.com>
 <000001d169b2$fb3c1910$f1b44b30$@classiccmp.org>
 <011c01d169be$224169b0$66c43d10$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJh3hbkF_Zf87TgbCmFFzyjrtK8UHfNttyUx_Y4vQe0uw@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-17 21:02 GMT+01:00 Rik Bos <hp-fix at xs4all.nl>:

>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West
> > Verzonden: woensdag 17 februari 2016 19:43
> > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> > Onderwerp: RE: Possible HP 250 available in Germany
> >
> > Stan wrote...
> > ---------
> > There may be an HP 250 available in Germany.
> >
> > If interested, please email me directly, sieler at allegro.com
> > ----------
> > Wow, very nice. I'm not up for a rescue in Germany, but curious - desk
> model or
> > pedestal model??
> >
> > Jay
>
> It's gone the owner sold it through ebay to a museum in Germany.
>

Just curious. Could this be the same HP250 I saw on Ebay one year ago and
posted a link to this list (the link is dead now)? It was relisted,
relisted and relisted and then never appeared again. The seller lowered the
price somewhat during this. But I never saw it sell.
That one was a desktop variant with a separate 7906 in a low desk side
cabinet.



>
> -Rik
>
>
/Mattis

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Feb 18 03:41:07 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:41:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <CAPhCz3RaPzg26K71wo5=F6sJb58dtBy9Out4hmsF0HPj1v8VFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <trinity-a46e3684-910e-47fd-b91e-2d78efb0d03a-1455688760251@3capp-gmx-bs66>
 <CAPhCz3REhOqOjqv9Fr9=o_H2igFpZ56Y6n-yYouivkj_1qcvUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhCz3RaPzg26K71wo5=F6sJb58dtBy9Out4hmsF0HPj1v8VFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602181030410.14147@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016, Peter Koch wrote:
> But this gives me the opportunity to ask wether anybody else out there still
> owns Cadmus equipment. If I will take these machines I might need spare
> parts and boot media (or tape images). Anybody has such stuff?

Of course :-) We have I think three 9900 systems, one with B/W graphics 
console, and all manuals and software (including MED and Oracle!). I have 
already imaged the tape cartridges, so they are archived.
(I see I need to take some pictures and create the web page...)

Christian

From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Feb 18 04:45:28 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 11:45:28 +0100
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160218104528.GC29688@beast.freibergnet.de>

Bryan C. Everly wrote:

> Hi everyone.  I'm hoping that one of the VAX experts out there can help me
> figure out how to get my 3100 booting.  I managed to cobble together the
> necessary cabling and was able to run a "TEST 50" from the serial console.
> Unfortunately my Google-fu isn't sufficient to help me figure out what the
> results mean.  Here is what I'm getting below.  Any ideas where my problem
> lies?
> 
> >>> test 50
> 
> 
> 
> KA42-A  V1.3
> ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
> 
>    MONO     0000.0001
>  ? CLK      0000.0005
>    NVR      0000.0001
>  ? DZ       0000.4001
>       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
>    MEM      0010.0001
>       01000000
>    MM       0000.0001
>    FP       0000.0001
>    IT       0000.0001
>    SYS      0000.0001
>    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
>    NI       0100.0001
> >>>
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan

Google-fu:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/w9JJdaGo758

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Feb 18 04:30:06 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:30:06 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 17 Feb 2016 17:56:12 -0500"
 <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Hi everyone.  I'm hoping that one of the VAX experts out there can help me
> figure out how to get my 3100 booting.  I managed to cobble together the
> necessary cabling and was able to run a "TEST 50" from the serial console.
> Unfortunately my Google-fu isn't sufficient to help me figure out what the
> results mean.  Here is what I'm getting below.  Any ideas where my problem
> lies?
>
> >>> test 50
>
>
>
> KA42-A  V1.3
> ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
>
>    MONO     0000.0001
>  ? CLK      0000.0005
>    NVR      0000.0001
>  ? DZ       0000.4001
>       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
>    MEM      0010.0001
>       01000000
>    MM       0000.0001
>    FP       0000.0001
>    IT       0000.0001
>    SYS      0000.0001
>    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
>    NI       0100.0001
> >>>
>

Hi Bryan,

This looks pretty good.  There are no double question marks which would
indicate possibly more serious failures.

? CLK suggests the time of year clock is not set because the battery is bad.
(I suggest removing the battery before it leaks.)

? DZ usually means that one of the serial ports could not be tested (the one
you have the console terminal connected to).

The other results are all good.

What happens when you give it a BOOT command?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 18 08:25:00 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 08:25:00 -0600
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com> <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>

Josh wrote....
-----------------------
I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from Bitsavers and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not to open up that can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already available online.
------------------------

Of course, classiccmp would be happy to host them.

I'd want to ensure that it's not just a copy of what is already being hosted there though.... I hope Mike isn't raping up the classiccmp server :P

Mike - Can you share where these are coming from so we can determine if it's already hosted, make sure the material is "ok" to host, and make sure it's a good idea? There's other issues besides disk space and bandwidth to consider....

J





From bryan at bceassociates.com  Thu Feb 18 08:14:13 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:14:13 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>

Peter,

Thanks for the email.  My challenge is that this machine has a floppy and a
SCSI drive (both appear to be cabled correctly when I open things up) and
yet neither show up when I do a "show device" from the console.

>>> show device

 VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WP  DEVNAM  REV
 -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---
 ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-16-58-20

Therefore, when I issue a "boot" command, it's trying to boot from the
network and not from the floppy I currently have inserted.

Any ideas on troubleshooting I can do to determine why it isn't seeing
things on the SCSI bus?  (I'm assuming this is a SCSI floppy - please let
me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption.)


Thanks,
Bryan

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
wrote:

> >
> > Hi everyone.  I'm hoping that one of the VAX experts out there can help
> me
> > figure out how to get my 3100 booting.  I managed to cobble together the
> > necessary cabling and was able to run a "TEST 50" from the serial
> console.
> > Unfortunately my Google-fu isn't sufficient to help me figure out what
> the
> > results mean.  Here is what I'm getting below.  Any ideas where my
> problem
> > lies?
> >
> > >>> test 50
> >
> >
> >
> > KA42-A  V1.3
> > ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
> >
> >    MONO     0000.0001
> >  ? CLK      0000.0005
> >    NVR      0000.0001
> >  ? DZ       0000.4001
> >       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
> >    MEM      0010.0001
> >       01000000
> >    MM       0000.0001
> >    FP       0000.0001
> >    IT       0000.0001
> >    SYS      0000.0001
> >    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
> >    NI       0100.0001
> > >>>
> >
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> This looks pretty good.  There are no double question marks which would
> indicate possibly more serious failures.
>
> ? CLK suggests the time of year clock is not set because the battery is
> bad.
> (I suggest removing the battery before it leaks.)
>
> ? DZ usually means that one of the serial ports could not be tested (the
> one
> you have the console terminal connected to).
>
> The other results are all good.
>
> What happens when you give it a BOOT command?
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 18 09:04:30 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 07:04:30 -0800
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-=uo7VPs5o6gxH8RCSDo35c5VKBhhW19f+qXY43k52JQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bitsavers

Archive.org
On Feb 12, 2016 3:18 AM, "Mike" <tulsamike3434 at gmail.com> wrote:

> By the way I found a 900gig of old computer manuals 1955 - 1992 PDF
> files just trying to find some seeders grrrrrrr I will let yall know
> when they are done downloading!
> --
> *Mikes ATC Shop A how To Youtube Channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5OzVS_CmCOLjjztbRiPuKQ?view_as=public
> 405-481-4715 *
>
>
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb 18 09:21:33 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:21:33 -0500
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com> <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E161B920-9494-4607-B66E-85934FD24F5F@comcast.net>


> On Feb 17, 2016, at 11:29 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from Bitsavers and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not to open up that can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already available online.

It would be easy to confirm that; a torrent specifies the file names of the files in it.  So even if there aren't any seeders, the content is visible.  All that's needed is for Mike to post that list, or just to look at the names and compare them against those on bitsavers.

	paul



From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 18 09:34:28 2016
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:34:28 -0500
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>
 <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
 <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's not a can of worms - it's one happy guy and one bitter guy.

I checked, and the bitsavers mirror is (roughly) 300gb, and that includes
the "bits" part. Otherwise it's about 230gb.

The manuals collections on archive.org include bitsavers, but also a few
other major locations and sets, and likely gets into the terabyte range.

A re-curated remix of all the materials is always welcome, but if it's an
arbitrary pile, it's not adding much.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Josh wrote....
> -----------------------
> I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from Bitsavers
> and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not to open up that
> can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already available online.
> ------------------------
>
> Of course, classiccmp would be happy to host them.
>
> I'd want to ensure that it's not just a copy of what is already being
> hosted there though.... I hope Mike isn't raping up the classiccmp server :P
>
> Mike - Can you share where these are coming from so we can determine if
> it's already hosted, make sure the material is "ok" to host, and make sure
> it's a good idea? There's other issues besides disk space and bandwidth to
> consider....
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 09:37:03 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:37:03 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufvZqvm_XCH28vKwA4Zhd2xcOQU6YgK1hDt0hARw=+qtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Bryan C. Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com>
wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Thanks for the email.  My challenge is that this machine has a floppy and a
> SCSI drive (both appear to be cabled correctly when I open things up) and
> yet neither show up when I do a "show device" from the console.
>
> >>> show device
>
>  VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WP  DEVNAM  REV
>  -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---
>  ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-16-58-20
>
> Therefore, when I issue a "boot" command, it's trying to boot from the
> network and not from the floppy I currently have inserted.
>
> Any ideas on troubleshooting I can do to determine why it isn't seeing
> things on the SCSI bus?  (I'm assuming this is a SCSI floppy - please let
> me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption.)
>
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>
>
Bryan
It may be that you're missing an external hard drive, but at least
something should show.  Here is my SHOW DEV output:

http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/MicroVAX-3100/show_dev.jpg

You can see a tape drive, and hard drives to pick from.

Open the box and see if there is battery damage preventing the drive
controller, assuming you have one is connected and not damaged.

Bill

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Feb 18 09:22:56 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:22:56 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:14:13 -0500"
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Peter,
>
> Thanks for the email.  My challenge is that this machine has a floppy and a
> SCSI drive (both appear to be cabled correctly when I open things up) and
> yet neither show up when I do a "show device" from the console.
>
> >>> show device
>
> VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WP  DEVNAM  REV
> -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---
> ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-16-58-20
>
> Therefore, when I issue a "boot" command, it's trying to boot from the
> network and not from the floppy I currently have inserted.
>
> Any ideas on troubleshooting I can do to determine why it isn't seeing
> things on the SCSI bus?  (I'm assuming this is a SCSI floppy - please let
> me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption.)
>

Hi Bryan,

Now that you mention it, your TEST 50 output (quoted below for reference) is
not showing any SCSI controllers.  There ought to be either one or two of
them, depending on the model.

> KA42-A  V1.3
> ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
>
>    MONO     0000.0001
>  ? CLK      0000.0005
>    NVR      0000.0001
>  ? DZ       0000.4001
>       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
>    MEM      0010.0001
>       01000000
>    MM       0000.0001
>    FP       0000.0001
>    IT       0000.0001
>    SYS      0000.0001
>    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
>    NI       0100.0001
> >>>

As far as I recall, some of the 3100s have a the floppy connected to a SCSI
controller but others have a non-SCSI floppy controller like the one in the
VAX 2000 which I think shows up as DUA2 instead of DKAsomething.

Have a look at the where the SCSI connectors go - it might be to a daughter
board in the top corner.  There may be one or two 40 pin NCR5380 SCSI
controller chips on it.  Check that this board is correctly connected to the
system board - it probably sits directly into a couple of connectors on it. 
If there is a cable instead, make sure it is plugged in properly.  If you are
good with a multimeter, check that it is getting power.

I hate to say it but I have a Microvax 3100 (rather than a VAXStation 3100)
which has failed in a similar manner - both SCSI controllers are not visible.
They are on the system board though, not on a daughter board.  I doubt both
failed independently - probably some support circuitry they have in common.

If you can't get the disks working, it should still be possible to boot the
operating system of your choice over the network if you have a suitable boot
host (which might not have to run the same os) or emulator.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From spedraja at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 09:14:44 2016
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 16:14:44 +0100
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>
 <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
 <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8zY6T+6eLCXK97MFjdjLEJ2=3Yo8H0q6GQ0pOy9yRFyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps I could share it ?n my Web Page.

Kind Regards
Sergio


2016-02-18 15:25 GMT+01:00, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:
> Josh wrote....
> -----------------------
> I'm willing to bet that this torrent is 100% stuff scraped from Bitsavers
> and Archive.org (where the two don't already overlap, not to open up that
> can-o-worms again.)  So good news:  it's already available online.
> ------------------------
>
> Of course, classiccmp would be happy to host them.
>
> I'd want to ensure that it's not just a copy of what is already being hosted
> there though.... I hope Mike isn't raping up the classiccmp server :P
>
> Mike - Can you share where these are coming from so we can determine if it's
> already hosted, make sure the material is "ok" to host, and make sure it's a
> good idea? There's other issues besides disk space and bandwidth to
> consider....
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations
?
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
http://spedraja.wordpress.com
https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 18 10:21:16 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:21:16 +0100
Subject: DEC VT30-H info
In-Reply-To: <56C4F142.8050001@gmail.com>
References: <56C4F142.8050001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS125E713246097D2BC81C886AF0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: shadoooo
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 11:16 PM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: DEC VT30-H info

Hello Henk,
thanks for the link.
It talk about two boards (one hex and one quad). In effect mine are hex
and quad.
But the hex board has three IDC connectors, while the quad only two.
My suspect is that the third connector could go to some other module.
Do you have the VT30-H system too?
Could we compare the boards?

About documentation: I can't find the Option Bulletin cited on the text.

Thanks
Andrea

---------
I have that Option Bulletin. At the moment things are very busy,
but I can try to scan it next week. I no longer have access to the great
Oc? 3165 (600 dpi 256 grey tones, scanning 55 A4 per minute), but
the scanner at work can do color at 330 dpi.
It's better than no scan at all ;)

I will take a few pictures this weekend. Just need to search the boards.
ISTR it is installed in a box, so I can also check the wiring.

greetz,
- Henk


From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 10:29:41 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 08:29:41 -0800
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com> <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
 <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C5F175.2030209@gmail.com>

On 2/18/16 7:34 AM, Jason Scott wrote:
> It's not a can of worms - it's one happy guy and one bitter guy.

* slow clap *


From bryan at bceassociates.com  Thu Feb 18 10:08:28 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 11:08:28 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>

Peter,

I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.  Mine
just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the problem?

[image: VS3100 SCSI/MFM controller]


Thanks,
Bryan

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
wrote:

> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > Thanks for the email.  My challenge is that this machine has a floppy
> and a
> > SCSI drive (both appear to be cabled correctly when I open things up) and
> > yet neither show up when I do a "show device" from the console.
> >
> > >>> show device
> >
> > VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WP  DEVNAM  REV
> > -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---
> > ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-16-58-20
> >
> > Therefore, when I issue a "boot" command, it's trying to boot from the
> > network and not from the floppy I currently have inserted.
> >
> > Any ideas on troubleshooting I can do to determine why it isn't seeing
> > things on the SCSI bus?  (I'm assuming this is a SCSI floppy - please let
> > me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption.)
> >
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> Now that you mention it, your TEST 50 output (quoted below for reference)
> is
> not showing any SCSI controllers.  There ought to be either one or two of
> them, depending on the model.
>
> > KA42-A  V1.3
> > ID 08-00-2B-16-58-20
> >
> >    MONO     0000.0001
> >  ? CLK      0000.0005
> >    NVR      0000.0001
> >  ? DZ       0000.4001
> >       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000000 00000000
> >    MEM      0010.0001
> >       01000000
> >    MM       0000.0001
> >    FP       0000.0001
> >    IT       0000.0001
> >    SYS      0000.0001
> >    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3
> >    NI       0100.0001
> > >>>
>
> As far as I recall, some of the 3100s have a the floppy connected to a SCSI
> controller but others have a non-SCSI floppy controller like the one in the
> VAX 2000 which I think shows up as DUA2 instead of DKAsomething.
>
> Have a look at the where the SCSI connectors go - it might be to a daughter
> board in the top corner.  There may be one or two 40 pin NCR5380 SCSI
> controller chips on it.  Check that this board is correctly connected to
> the
> system board - it probably sits directly into a couple of connectors on it.
> If there is a cable instead, make sure it is plugged in properly.  If you
> are
> good with a multimeter, check that it is getting power.
>
> I hate to say it but I have a Microvax 3100 (rather than a VAXStation 3100)
> which has failed in a similar manner - both SCSI controllers are not
> visible.
> They are on the system board though, not on a daughter board.  I doubt both
> failed independently - probably some support circuitry they have in common.
>
> If you can't get the disks working, it should still be possible to boot the
> operating system of your choice over the network if you have a suitable
> boot
> host (which might not have to run the same os) or emulator.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Feb 18 12:37:28 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 18:37:28 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 18 Feb 2016 11:08:28 -0500"
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PWU95C6Q5G00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

Peter,

>
> I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
> everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
> this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
> 40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.  Mine
> just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the problem?
>
> [image: VS3100 SCSI/MFM controller]
>

Bryan,

I don't have any examples of that board - I have one VS3100 with a floppy but
it has the SCSI controller variant.

It seems plausable that the missing eprom could contain the firmware for the
disk controllers.

Maybe someone else has one of these boards and could check what's there?

(Attachments are not passed on by the mailing list but the picture can be
viewed at the url given.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jbglaw at lug-owl.de  Thu Feb 18 12:58:25 2016
From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 19:58:25 +0100
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>

Hi Bryan,

On Thu, 2016-02-18 11:08:28 -0500, Bryan C. Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com> wrote:
> I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
> everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
> this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
> 40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.  Mine
> just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the problem?

I'll have a look at my machines once I'm back home (one to three
hours.)  If I have a machine with a SCSI daughterboard like you have,
I can probably give the EPROM to a friend for reading it out.

MfG, JBG

-- 
      Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de              +49-172-7608481
Signature of:                 Friends are relatives you make for yourself.
the second  :

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Thu Feb 18 13:09:37 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 19:09:37 +0000
Subject: Anyone have DIBOL-11, CTS-300, or CTS-500?
In-Reply-To: <686924FB-2FDB-400A-81CA-0691188B44DC@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <D2EBC771.52187%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

I definitely have CTS300 on RL02, I managed to take all our packs when the
company I worked for got rid of me in 2001. I also took a couple of boxes
full of TK50s and CONDISTs on CD. Pretty sure there's a DIBOL-11 tape in
there somewhere but it may be DIBOL-32. Got the manuals and reference cards
too....

I also kept the RL02 drive, MicroVAX II I used to develop on and a PDP 11/73
with RLV12 controller.

Does it all still work though, press button A or B now!

Adrian


On 16/02/2016 00:10, "Zane Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> Wow!  I?m sad to say, good luck with this one.  I?ve not seen any sign of it
> having survived.  As close as I can get is the binder I have for COS-310
> v8.01, but that is for the PDP-8.
> 
> I?ve always thought it would be interesting to check out DIBOL-11, so would be
> interested if you have any luck.  My fear is this is like DECnet for RT-11,
> impossible to find.  I hope I?m wrong.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 3:54 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone have the DIBOL-11 software, which was packaged for RT-11
>> as CTS-300, and for RSTS as CTS-500?
>> 
>> My immediate interest is for RT-11, though I have a DECdatasystem-570
>> that I believe was originally sold with CTS-500, so it would be really
>> nice to get that as well.
>> 
>> It would also be nice to get scans of related documentation, if anyone
>> has it, including:
>> 
>> AA-5519A-TC Introduction to CTS-300 and DIBOL
>> AA-5697E-TC CTS-300 Release Notes and Installation Guide
>> AA-5495A-TC CTS-300 Concepts and Facilities
>> AA-1760F-TC DIBOL-11 Language Reference Manual
>> AA-5972D-TC DECFORM User's Guide
>> AA-5025B-TC CDS-500 DIBOL User's Guide
> 

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 18 13:24:49 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:24:49 -0600
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com> <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
 <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401d16a82$08c5ab80$1a510280$@classiccmp.org>

It was written....
-----
It's not a can of worms - it's one happy guy and one bitter guy.
-----
How many thousands of manuals did YOU scan and retouch by hand?

And....
------
A re-curated remix...
------
"Re-Curated". That's another word for....

And I should point out... there are a very small and specific set of rules that one must agree to in order to be allowed to be an official bitsavers mirror. The OP has blatantly violated what he expressly agreed to. Perhaps someone who is "bitter" has a good reason to be?

J



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Feb 18 14:03:58 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 20:03:58 +0000
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>,
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E806B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Peter,
> 
> I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
> everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
> this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
> 40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.  Mine
> just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the problem?

According to the printset (which I am pretty sure I got from bitsavers), there
should be a 64K*16 bit 40 pin EPROM on the disk controller daughterboard. 
What it contains I do not know.

It does appear to be an EPROM rather than a microcontroller (which was my
first thought when the idea of a 40 pin package with a quartz window was
mentioned) so it should be possble to copy one from a working machine, given
a suitable programmer.

-tony

From jason at textfiles.com  Thu Feb 18 14:26:49 2016
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:26:49 -0500
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <001401d16a82$08c5ab80$1a510280$@classiccmp.org>
References: <56BDBF9C.7070508@gmail.com>
 <008e01d16a03$c0647430$412d5c90$@sc.rr.com>
 <56C548C1.8000906@gmail.com>
 <001601d16a58$26575920$73060b60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAKnFLd3JZQTZ2PcJs+qOb6_=p7vxqX7KT1vfTNU_KnkJLZsFgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001401d16a82$08c5ab80$1a510280$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd3jFXXZa3isOiBtsqBV0KyP6Ag5b0OuhOvrx_rR4g2cmA@mail.gmail.com>

My apologies, it's not one bitter guy and one happy guy; it's two bitter
guys and one happy guy.

I spent 15 years assembling TEXTFILES.COM, many thousands of hours putting
that collection together, typing it from printouts, pulling it from old
floppies, making communications with donating cool people who had their own
BBS collections, then spent 4 years travelling throughout the US to meet
the people behind these textfiles, a good portion of whom have now died
with these their only interviews, and in the interim time the textfiles.com
stuff has been remixed, redone, and the documentary has been copied,
torrented, decontextualized and you name it. I'm pretty happy this history
wasn't lost. So I've got my own situation.

If you can tell me how http://textfiles.com/bitsavers/ is not a bitsavers
mirror, let me know, I'll fix it. I think I'm following all the rules there.

In fact, I even have a second one sitting because I haven't given it a good
hostname, but it works the same way:
http://teamarchive1.fnf.archive.org/bitsavers/

If you mean the Internet Archive mirroring of the material, obviously Al
(and yourself) are not happy with that thing. Unfortunately, I first heard
of this with Al blasting me on this very list, and then of course radio
silence. I offered to try to find amends, but when you lock someone out, I
guess that's how it's done.

And let me say, this is now YOUR first time bringing ANY of this up with
me, and I'll say again like I said to Al - let me know what the Internet
Archive collections need to do to make things right to you.


On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It was written....
> -----
> It's not a can of worms - it's one happy guy and one bitter guy.
> -----
> How many thousands of manuals did YOU scan and retouch by hand?
>
> And....
> ------
> A re-curated remix...
> ------
> "Re-Curated". That's another word for....
>
> And I should point out... there are a very small and specific set of rules
> that one must agree to in order to be allowed to be an official bitsavers
> mirror. The OP has blatantly violated what he expressly agreed to. Perhaps
> someone who is "bitter" has a good reason to be?
>
> J
>
>
>

From jbglaw at lug-owl.de  Thu Feb 18 15:27:17 2016
From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 22:27:17 +0100
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
Message-ID: <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>

On Thu, 2016-02-18 19:58:25 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-02-18 11:08:28 -0500, Bryan C. Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com> wrote:
> > I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
> > everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
> > this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
> > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
> > 40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.  Mine
> > just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the problem?
> 
> I'll have a look at my machines once I'm back home (one to three
> hours.)  If I have a machine with a SCSI daughterboard like you have,
> I can probably give the EPROM to a friend for reading it out.

The first machine I opened (3100/76 SPX) does have all the SCSI stuff
onboard.

  The second box (3100/38 with graphics and flopp) does have a SCSI
daugher board, but it's quite different to
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/s1.jpg on
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html . I made a photo of my
board: http://lug-owl.de/~jbglaw/VAXstation_3100m38_scsi_board.jpeg

  There are, I think, two more MicroVAX 3100 systems down there, which
I didn't yet dismantle. Though the could have a matching board... Will
check these tomorrow.

MfG, JBG

-- 
      Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de              +49-172-7608481
  Signature of:                        Lauf nicht vor Deinem Gl?ck davon:
  the second  :                             Es k?nnte hinter Dir stehen!

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Thu Feb 18 13:15:46 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 14:15:46 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
Message-ID: <CAKTdruYLpgLGNVJYMQ-s=FqyR2BnGuESHSv2eeicsyvT2Pa3mA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks JBG!


Thanks,
Bryan

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de>
wrote:

> Hi Bryan,
>
> On Thu, 2016-02-18 11:08:28 -0500, Bryan C. Everly <
> bryan at bceassociates.com> wrote:
> > I confirmed that there is a NCR5380 chip on the daughterboard and that
> > everything was connected.  Still no joy.  The one thing I'm wondering is
> > this.  If you look at the attached picture below from
> > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html, you will see there is a
> > 40-ish pin EPROM (?) in the bottom row of chips third from the left.
> Mine
> > just has an empty socket there.  Is it possible this is causing the
> problem?
>
> I'll have a look at my machines once I'm back home (one to three
> hours.)  If I have a machine with a SCSI daughterboard like you have,
> I can probably give the EPROM to a friend for reading it out.
>
> MfG, JBG
>
> --
>       Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de
> +49-172-7608481
> Signature of:                 Friends are relatives you make for yourself.
> the second  :
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb 18 16:32:25 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:32:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
Message-ID: <20160218223225.EA29E18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Josh Dersch

    > * slow clap *

I myself am waiting expectantly for the Encyclopaedia Dramatica page...

	Noel

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Thu Feb 18 18:51:57 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 00:51:57 +0000
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
Message-ID: <D2EC17AD.521B3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

Hi folks,

'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the state
of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.

Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
0.7V voltage drop.

Pic of the board before cleaning is at
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg

Cheers!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 18:57:45 2016
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 22:57:45 -0200
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
In-Reply-To: <D2EC17AD.521B3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2EC17AD.521B3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKSEtgHjHAfyKVzgJxOZ7X7byQ4T2v7CHE57s8GmhU3Ncg@mail.gmail.com>

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /LisaIOBoard.jpg on this server.

2016-02-18 22:51 GMT-02:00 Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk>:

> Hi folks,
>
> 'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the
> state
> of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
> powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
> restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
> diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.
>
> Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
> D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
> make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
> but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
> 5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
> 0.7V voltage drop.
>
> Pic of the board before cleaning is at
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Adrian/Witchy
> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
> collection?
>
>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 19:02:25 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 19:02:25 -0600
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
In-Reply-To: <D2EC17AD.521B3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2EC17AD.521B3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd69hDBvA+0B9qWwvPQE-KAUaDfsU2aQPg7oPrW_hvcVWA@mail.gmail.com>

FYI, I get a 403 on that link.

As for the diode, unless the leads are seriously rotted, why not just make
a +note+ of it - and leave it alone? It's a hermetically sealed package
(glass+metal, right?) and not likely to have suffered in any way, aside
from the cosmetic issue.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk
> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> 'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the
> state
> of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
> powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
> restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
> diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.
>
> Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
> D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
> make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
> but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
> 5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
> 0.7V voltage drop.
>
> Pic of the board before cleaning is at
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Adrian/Witchy
> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
> collection?
>
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 20:47:11 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LQnUh8Q7H7nWKPnGozQFAc_y016U7CQP4-GeHTcR7dF7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkvwqPGvM1fSx_26sNCC_9Gkfe7n57qyxW+-F-aznaVNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANV78LQnUh8Q7H7nWKPnGozQFAc_y016U7CQP4-GeHTcR7dF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmSbnPAFS4HkUfA6Uxpi6Ffn_sbd=Y5+8FCAmFQzFq-bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony
<charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101:
>
> #         @(#)ibm.ti          1.3       (1.10     2/22/83)
>
> ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10,
>           cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H,
>           clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI,
>           kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA,
>           home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I,

Charles, this was exactly what I needed.  I got tired of waiting for
my Littlefuse cap to arrive, so I installed a 3A panel-mount circuit
breaker (recycled from a small UPS) and fired up the terminal tonight.
I fed that terminfo entry into tic and it works like a champ... vi
works, even hack works.

Thanks for the help!

-ethan

P.S. for anyone that runs across this thread later, using this
terminal on a Linux box, my DIP switches are:

10111111 11100000 00110001 10011001

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 20:47:11 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LQnUh8Q7H7nWKPnGozQFAc_y016U7CQP4-GeHTcR7dF7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkvwqPGvM1fSx_26sNCC_9Gkfe7n57qyxW+-F-aznaVNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANV78LQnUh8Q7H7nWKPnGozQFAc_y016U7CQP4-GeHTcR7dF7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmSbnPAFS4HkUfA6Uxpi6Ffn_sbd=Y5+8FCAmFQzFq-bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony
<charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101:
>
> #         @(#)ibm.ti          1.3       (1.10     2/22/83)
>
> ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10,
>           cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H,
>           clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI,
>           kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA,
>           home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I,

Charles, this was exactly what I needed.  I got tired of waiting for
my Littlefuse cap to arrive, so I installed a 3A panel-mount circuit
breaker (recycled from a small UPS) and fired up the terminal tonight.
I fed that terminfo entry into tic and it works like a champ... vi
works, even hack works.

Thanks for the help!

-ethan

P.S. for anyone that runs across this thread later, using this
terminal on a Linux box, my DIP switches are:

10111111 11100000 00110001 10011001

From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Feb 18 21:40:28 2016
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 19:40:28 -0800
Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A
Message-ID: <CAC20j8QEM8zvpz-A+ceqhYQ9L-Yh=COZ2ZsLV3rTKjRkJqiiBw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Just looking for suggestions on how best to setup my PDP-8A so that it can
use either a VT-52 (current loop version) or an ASR-33.

One idea I have is a multi-pole switch to change the baud rate from 110 to
9600 and to also switch the xmit and rcv current loops.

Does anyone out there have any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Marc

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Fri Feb 19 02:10:43 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 08:10:43 +0000
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKSEtgHjHAfyKVzgJxOZ7X7byQ4T2v7CHE57s8GmhU3Ncg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2EC7E83.521C1%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>




On 19/02/2016 00:57, "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:

> Forbidden
> 
> You don't have permission to access /LisaIOBoard.jpg on this server.
> 
> 2016-02-18 22:51 GMT-02:00 Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk>:
> 

Fixed, I don't normally put things in the root of my webserver and forgot
about the permissions.

A



>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> 'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the
>> state
>> of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
>> powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
>> restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
>> diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.
>> 
>> Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
>> D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
>> make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
>> but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
>> 5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
>> 0.7V voltage drop.
>> 
>> Pic of the board before cleaning is at
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> --
>> Adrian/Witchy
>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
>> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
>> collection?
>> 
>> 
>> 

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Fri Feb 19 02:15:50 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 08:15:50 +0000
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd69hDBvA+0B9qWwvPQE-KAUaDfsU2aQPg7oPrW_hvcVWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2EC7FB6.521C3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>




On 19/02/2016 01:02, "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI, I get a 403 on that link.
> 
> As for the diode, unless the leads are seriously rotted, why not just make
> a +note+ of it - and leave it alone? It's a hermetically sealed package
> (glass+metal, right?) and not likely to have suffered in any way, aside
> from the cosmetic issue.


Fixed, I don't normally put things in the root of my webserver and forgot
about the permissions. The diode does still check out with my DMM, but it
looks plastic to me which is why I mentioned it - it's not your usual 1N4001
glass type and I don't have another I can compare it with since my other
Lisa is a 2/10 and the I/O board is different.

A

> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> 'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the
>> state
>> of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
>> powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
>> restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
>> diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.
>> 
>> Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
>> D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
>> make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
>> but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
>> 5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
>> 0.7V voltage drop.
>> 
>> Pic of the board before cleaning is at
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> --
>> Adrian/Witchy
>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
>> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
>> collection?
>> 
>> 
>> 

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From barythrin at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 04:46:25 2016
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 04:46:25 -0600
Subject: Kim 1
Message-ID: <ue18fv8mivue3giegnwvcmaf.1455878785926@email.android.com>

Jose,

What model is it and what are you asking about? Selling or seeking help to use it? It would also help folks if you mention where youre located. Members near you may speak up.

- John?

<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Jose Manuel <uribecosta123 at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:02/16/2016  10:05 PM  (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org </div><div>Subject: Kim 1 </div><div>
</div>I have a Kim 1 board.
Please contact.
Thanks.

From barythrin at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 05:02:36 2016
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 05:02:36 -0600
Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_928_gig_classic_computer_manuals_looking_for_s?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?eeders_I_am_going=0D__on_vacation_Ill_see_y'all_Tuesday?=
Message-ID: <6h1auxnm9boxgnrsu50vdyhd.1455879756345@email.android.com>

Might be shooting the messenger in this case though? He didn't create the torrent just sharing that he found one and is trying to download it but having trouble due to lack of full copies being shared so he doesn't have it all yet.

Unless you meant violation in tos of this mailing list?

Just trying to protect him from potential misunderstanding ;-)

<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> </div><div>Date:02/18/2016  1:24 PM  (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> </div><div>Subject: RE: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
  on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday </div><div>
</div>The OP has blatantly violated what he expressly agreed to. Perhaps someone who is "bitter" has a good reason to be?


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb 19 09:16:24 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 09:16:24 -0600
Subject: 928 gig classic computer manuals looking for seeders I am going
 on vacation Ill see y'all Tuesday
In-Reply-To: <6h1auxnm9boxgnrsu50vdyhd.1455879756345@email.android.com>
References: <6h1auxnm9boxgnrsu50vdyhd.1455879756345@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <001601d16b28$7f72f840$7e58e8c0$@classiccmp.org>

My apologies to the list. My statement should have been made off-list, which is where the rest of my discussion will ensue....

J




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 19 10:08:31 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:08:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: BDV11 'mis-feature'
Message-ID: <20160219160831.47A5B18C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I recently discovered that the LTC feature on the BDV11 bootstrap board
has a minor issue: the latch that stores the 'LTC enabled' bit is _not_
cleared by INIT (unlike every other PDP-11 device I've ever heard of), but
only by a direct store into the LTC CSR, _or_ power cycling (BDCOK, to be
exact).

This means that once you turn the LTC on using the BDV11, neither an INIT
instruction, nor a 'Start' command to ODT, will disable it! Needless to say,
it tends to scramble the booting process when an LTC interrupt shows up
before the software is ready for one...

I _was_ going to ECO the board, to connect BINIT to the clear input of the
latch, but... I now think I know why DEC did this. There is no bus receiver
on BINIT! (And there is, alas, no empty DIP space I could put one in.)

I'm seriously tempted to connect the 'reset' circuitry on the BDV11 to BINIT,
instead of BDCOK. That would mean that hitting the reset switch on the BDV11
wouldn't emulate a power cycle any more, but maybe I could live with that - I
never use that switch anyway.

And it would be _so_ nice to have 'Start' disable the LTC...

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb 19 10:18:01 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:18:01 -0500
Subject: BDV11 'mis-feature'
In-Reply-To: <20160219160831.47A5B18C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160219160831.47A5B18C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5D8E922B-1DF9-4250-ADC1-D6625688DAAD@comcast.net>


> On Feb 19, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> So I recently discovered that the LTC feature on the BDV11 bootstrap board
> has a minor issue: the latch that stores the 'LTC enabled' bit is _not_
> cleared by INIT (unlike every other PDP-11 device I've ever heard of), but
> only by a direct store into the LTC CSR, _or_ power cycling (BDCOK, to be
> exact).
> 
> This means that once you turn the LTC on using the BDV11, neither an INIT
> instruction, nor a 'Start' command to ODT, will disable it! Needless to say,
> it tends to scramble the booting process when an LTC interrupt shows up
> before the software is ready for one...

Yuck.

I suppose this doesn't show up as an issue in practice because normal boot sequencing starts with the processor at PR7, and it stays there until device setup has been done.  Presumably OSs that support this misbegotten device know to clear the CSR before lowering the processor priority.

	paul


From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb 19 10:37:21 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:37:21 -0500
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <F83795E6-24EF-4E4D-8174-F9446C75A1FA@verizon.net>

All -- I've been searching for an online version of the LSI-11 Processor Handbook from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) but I can't seem to locate it anywhere. 

Does anyone have a link to it or, alternatively,  a real copy that maybe I can scan?

Thanks!

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Feb 19 11:26:55 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 12:26:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>

Problem with scanning those handbooks - it is a destructive  process  
mashing them in a  flat bed.
Maybe using one  of the   hold  the book and   photo  the pages   works  
well?  or.... find  one  that is  blown apart already...  Ed#   
_www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/19/2016 9:37:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
rich.cini at verizon.net writes:

All --  I've been searching for an online version of the LSI-11 Processor 
Handbook  from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) but I can't seem to 
locate it  anywhere. 

Does anyone have a link to it or, alternatively,  a  real copy that maybe I 
can scan?

Thanks!

Rich

Sent from  my iPhone=

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb 19 11:46:22 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 12:46:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>

 It depends on the quality of the binding and its age, and how much pressure you put on the spine. I've done it with the cover up with a white paper "mask" on the glass to minimize haze at the edges, and then hold the book by hand. There will be some text warping in the scan as a result of the gutter of the binding not being flat to the glass.  

Of course, if anyone has a copy whose binding is already compromised that would be good. I have not found a scan of this anywhere so certainly it would be good to scan. 

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2016, at 12:26 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Problem with scanning those handbooks - it is a destructive  process  
> mashing them in a  flat bed.
> Maybe using one  of the   hold  the book and   photo  the pages   works  
> well?  or.... find  one  that is  blown apart already...  Ed#   
> _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 2/19/2016 9:37:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> rich.cini at verizon.net writes:
> 
> All --  I've been searching for an online version of the LSI-11 Processor 
> Handbook  from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) but I can't seem to 
> locate it  anywhere. 
> 
> Does anyone have a link to it or, alternatively,  a  real copy that maybe I 
> can scan?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Rich
> 
> Sent from  my iPhone=

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 19 11:51:19 2016
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 09:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, Richard Cini wrote:

> It depends on the quality of the binding and its age, and how much 
> pressure you put on the spine. I've done it with the cover up with a 
> white paper "mask" on the glass to minimize haze at the edges, and then 
> hold the book by hand. There will be some text warping in the scan as a 
> result of the gutter of the binding not being flat to the glass.
>
> Of course, if anyone has a copy whose binding is already compromised 
> that would be good. I have not found a scan of this anywhere so 
> certainly it would be good to scan.


This is an excellent reason to build one of these:

http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Fri Feb 19 11:54:46 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 12:54:46 -0500
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>

Ooh, that's pretty cool. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2016, at 12:51 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, Richard Cini wrote:
>> 
>> It depends on the quality of the binding and its age, and how much pressure you put on the spine. I've done it with the cover up with a white paper "mask" on the glass to minimize haze at the edges, and then hold the book by hand. There will be some text warping in the scan as a result of the gutter of the binding not being flat to the glass.
>> 
>> Of course, if anyone has a copy whose binding is already compromised that would be good. I have not found a scan of this anywhere so certainly it would be good to scan.
> 
> 
> This is an excellent reason to build one of these:
> 
> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
> 
> g.
> 
> -- 
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From radiotest at juno.com  Fri Feb 19 12:45:37 2016
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 13:45:37 -0500
Subject: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <F83795E6-24EF-4E4D-8174-F9446C75A1FA@verizon.net>
References: <F83795E6-24EF-4E4D-8174-F9446C75A1FA@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160219134151.03daa498@juno.com>

At 11:37 AM 2/19/2016, Richard Cini wrote:

>... LSI-11 Processor Handbook from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) ...

It should - according to a chart in the 1979 pdp11 processor handbook the LSI-11 was used in the 11/03 and the 11/03L.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb 19 13:21:16 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:21:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>

>> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
> Ooh, that's pretty cool.

Yes, but, . . .
I've participated in building a few similar devices.
Instead of the two sides MEETING in a V, there should be an open area 
right at the spine to accomodate the greater thickness of the spine 
itself.  Having the two side panels able to slide up and down, with pegs, 
a few inches would accomodate that and permit a varying amount of spine 
clearance.

Lighting.  Ideally, lighting for copy work should be at a 45 degree 
(1/4PI) angle.  That way specular reflection (glare) from glass cover 
(still needed occasionally!) or even just glossy paper, is not going 
towards the camera.  If the trough faces north/south, then that can be 
done with light(s) north and south of the unit.  Using two lights makes it 
much easier to get acceptably even illumination. Some people prefer 
various forms of diffuse light, or coaxial lighting ("ring" light).

Having the camera at a fixed position relative to the work holder is great 
IFF you are doing consistent size.  Different sizes could be dealt with 
through variable focal length ("zoom") lenses, but that is not always the 
ideal solution.  I like to use FLAT-FIELD lenses, which are generally 
fixed focal length (sometimes called "primary lenses").  Enlarger lenses 
are an extremely cheap source for those.  Being able to move the 
camera/work distance closer/farther requires a movable mount to change 
distance, but keep the camera centered relative to the work.  North/south 
motion can be easily handled by moving the book along the trough, 
preferably with a fence, or simple bench-dog stops.  The other motion 
generally requires the camera mount to be a pole at a 45 degree (1/4PI 
radians) angle relative to the work.  Since the work is at a 45 degree 
angle from vertical, that means that the pole can be VERTICAL, with the 
camera mount aimed at a 45 degree angle. The post should be offset 
slightly from the north/south center, with the movable camera mounts 
holding the cameras at 45 degree angle (preferably with the focal node 
close to that central plane).

Positioning of the book would require placing it so that it is centered 
north/south (calibration marks, as well as fence or bench-dogs, are very 
helpful!) and moving the camera up and down and focussing for distance.


NOTE: use of other than 90 degree (1/2 PI radians) for the book holder 
would require further changes!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Feb 19 14:22:16 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:22:16 -0500
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <23a8b.4b8788b5.43f8d378@aol.com>

...And  when you look at the site you will see guy in  dust mask. 
when scanning   fungus ridden or moldy material a must although I  prefer a 
class A  respirator.
 
We have an offsite  storage we call the  tombs  and   it  smells like 
one... but it is  for martial that is  biohazzard  challenged that we want to 
scan someday.   too awesome to   toss  but  too ucccky to have in the archive, 
museum area or   library. If  another  copy shows up and/or someone scans a 
copy  then  the ucccky held  copy is  discarded. If   not   at least a copy 
is  saved here  and sometimes   we  suit up and scan  some of it.
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/19/2016 12:21:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cisin at xenosoft.com writes:

>>  http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
> Ooh, that's pretty cool.

Yes,  but, . . .
I've participated in building a few similar devices.
Instead  of the two sides MEETING in a V, there should be an open area 
right at the  spine to accomodate the greater thickness of the spine 
itself.   Having the two side panels able to slide up and down, with pegs, 
a few  inches would accomodate that and permit a varying amount of spine  
clearance.

Lighting.  Ideally, lighting for copy work should  be at a 45 degree 
(1/4PI) angle.  That way specular reflection  (glare) from glass cover 
(still needed occasionally!) or even just glossy  paper, is not going 
towards the camera.  If the trough faces  north/south, then that can be 
done with light(s) north and south of the  unit.  Using two lights makes it 
much easier to get acceptably even  illumination. Some people prefer 
various forms of diffuse light, or  coaxial lighting ("ring" light).

Having the camera at a fixed position  relative to the work holder is great 
IFF you are doing consistent  size.  Different sizes could be dealt with 
through variable focal  length ("zoom") lenses, but that is not always the 
ideal solution.  I  like to use FLAT-FIELD lenses, which are generally 
fixed focal length  (sometimes called "primary lenses").  Enlarger lenses 
are an  extremely cheap source for those.  Being able to move the 
camera/work  distance closer/farther requires a movable mount to change 
distance, but  keep the camera centered relative to the work.  North/south 
motion  can be easily handled by moving the book along the trough, 
preferably with  a fence, or simple bench-dog stops.  The other motion 
generally  requires the camera mount to be a pole at a 45 degree (1/4PI 
radians)  angle relative to the work.  Since the work is at a 45 degree 
angle  from vertical, that means that the pole can be VERTICAL, with the 
camera  mount aimed at a 45 degree angle. The post should be offset 
slightly from  the north/south center, with the movable camera mounts 
holding the cameras  at 45 degree angle (preferably with the focal node 
close to that central  plane).

Positioning of the book would require placing it so that it is  centered 
north/south (calibration marks, as well as fence or bench-dogs,  are very 
helpful!) and moving the camera up and down and focussing for  distance.


NOTE: use of other than 90 degree (1/2 PI radians) for  the book holder 
would require further changes!


--
Grumpy Ol'  Fred              cisin at xenosoft.com



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 19 15:18:42 2016
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 13:18:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
>> Ooh, that's pretty cool.
>
> Yes, but, . . .
> I've participated in building a few similar devices.

So download the CAD files and get cracking.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb 19 16:27:05 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:27:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>

>>>> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
>>> Ooh, that's pretty cool.
>> Yes, but, . . .
>> I've participated in building a few similar devices.
> So download the CAD files and get cracking.

If that's the way that you WANT to do it.
It's mostly plywood, framing, and some pipe work.
We did one with slotted angle iron, one with unistrut, and a few with 
scrap 2x4s.

You can take a shortcut and use some old enlargers or photographic copy 
stands for the camera brackets, and posts for them to slide on.
For one quick and dirty one, we used plumbing pipe and a pair of 
clamp-pods.   (common photographic clamps with 1/4"x20tpi mounting thread)
A "slide-rail" positioner is helpful to be able to make minor front-back 
adjustments of camera position, particularly since a relatively long focal 
length lens is going to require increasing the camera to work distance.
For this use, you'll want them coming down from a 
superstructure ABOVE, rather than rising from the base.

The big part is a trough made of two pieces of plywood resting on a V 
shaped frame.  (You'll remember that I recommended NOT having them meet at 
the bottom.)  Draw some lines on it at the midpoint, and at "calibrated" 
distances out from the midpoint, plus some holes at most common positions 
for bench-dogs or fence attachment.

There will still be occasional times when you will want to press glass on 
the work to flatten it.

Most people consider most "modern" lenses to produce reults that they can 
tolerate.  You may need to use a shorter focal length than you might be 
comfortable with.


With a "standard" camera mount, it is easy to switch cameras around until 
you find what you like.


Throw together a quick and dirty one, and decide for yourself what changes 
you need.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 19 16:43:01 2016
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 14:43:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>>>> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ :)
>>>> Ooh, that's pretty cool.
>>> Yes, but, . . .
>>> I've participated in building a few similar devices.
>> So download the CAD files and get cracking.
>
> If that's the way that you WANT to do it.
> It's mostly plywood, framing, and some pipe work.
> We did one with slotted angle iron, one with unistrut, and a few with scrap 
> 2x4s.
>
*sighs theatrically and shuffles off Fred's lawn*

:)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb 19 17:09:49 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 15:09:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191444580.27580@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, geneb wrote:
> *sighs theatrically and shuffles off Fred's lawn*

well, if you had brought beer, . . .




From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 17:22:16 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:22:16 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>

Just started working on mine - been a back-burnered project for a long
time. Unfortunately all the cables were cut when it was dismantled; I
was lucky to grab just the CPU.

Got it powered up ok - no drama there. I faked cables to the port on
the WCS which drives the console and hooked up my trust VT220 at 2400
baud. Nada. No self-test prompt; no ROM> prompt.

Maybe I've messed up the faked console cable; I'll check - already
tried obvious things like making sure Rx & Tx were crossed (it's a
three wire cable according to the schematics - Rx Tx Gnd; no flow
control). But I'd like to know more about the assorted LEDs on the CPU
boards; maybe there's a clue there if it's not getting far enough into
the self-test to display console output. There's a fair few LEDs on
the M8391. But the doc I've looked through on Bitsavers doesn't seem
to document their meanings and interpretations. Can anyone help on
that point?

Hopefully this link works:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208521465663997&l=867897c786

Thanks

Mike


http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 17:37:07 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:37:07 -0600
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191444580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191444580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20sPBS6LsxFnOmRvfi7C_CU7b1o4cmgxy_5YnS29pyTpg@mail.gmail.com>

Why does someone just take a photo with their camera
On Feb 19, 2016 5:09 PM, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, geneb wrote:
>
>> *sighs theatrically and shuffles off Fred's lawn*
>>
>
> well, if you had brought beer, . . .
>
>
>
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Feb 19 17:40:46 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 18:40:46 -0500
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <27bb7.4d4f93af.43f901fe@aol.com>


well...  the  trick is to have book partially open not   cracked
 
and to have 2  cameras  for fast production copy and uniform  size on the   
size as  cameras  are  fixed
 
clear material flattens  pages
 
sure if  just a  page or  so   a   camera  even hand  held  works...
but if  you are humping pages all day long.....  you  need   this  thing!
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for smecc  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/19/2016 4:37:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
tdk.knight at gmail.com writes:

Why does  someone just take a photo with their camera
On Feb 19, 2016 5:09 PM, "Fred  Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Feb 2016,  geneb wrote:
>
>> *sighs theatrically and shuffles off Fred's  lawn*
>>
>
> well, if you had brought beer, . .  .
>
>
>
>


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Feb 19 17:50:16 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:50:16 -0600
Subject: got it. RE: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <000001d16b70$48a977b0$d9fc6710$@classiccmp.org>

Richard wrote...
--------------
All -- I've been searching for an online version of the LSI-11 Processor
Handbook from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) but I can't seem to
locate it anywhere. 

Does anyone have a link to it or, alternatively,  a real copy that maybe I
can scan?
---------------

I probably have several hundred of those dec handbooks, organized by year. I
just pulled the one you want...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25043539971/in/dateposted/

Richard - it's yours for "the cost of a beer if we ever meet". All I ask is
that if one isn't online anywhere, you make reasonable efforts at some point
to get it scanned and available to the public.

Email me your shipping address off-list.

J



From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Fri Feb 19 18:07:18 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:07:18 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just started working on mine - been a back-burnered project for a long
> time. Unfortunately all the cables were cut when it was dismantled; I
> was lucky to grab just the CPU.
>
> Got it powered up ok - no drama there. I faked cables to the port on
> the WCS which drives the console and hooked up my trust VT220 at 2400
> baud. Nada. No self-test prompt; no ROM> prompt.
>
> Maybe I've messed up the faked console cable; I'll check - already
> tried obvious things like making sure Rx & Tx were crossed (it's a
> three wire cable according to the schematics - Rx Tx Gnd; no flow
> control). But I'd like to know more about the assorted LEDs on the CPU
> boards; maybe there's a clue there if it's not getting far enough into
> the self-test to display console output. There's a fair few LEDs on
> the M8391. But the doc I've looked through on Bitsavers doesn't seem
> to document their meanings and interpretations. Can anyone help on
> that point?
>
> Hopefully this link works:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208521465663997&l=867897c786

OK apparently link didn't work... here's the pic:

http://www.corestore.org/730boardsLEDs.jpg

See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb 19 19:04:32 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:04:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20sPBS6LsxFnOmRvfi7C_CU7b1o4cmgxy_5YnS29pyTpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191444580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA3rs20sPBS6LsxFnOmRvfi7C_CU7b1o4cmgxy_5YnS29pyTpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191646090.27580@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> Why does someone just take a photo with their camera

Why does someone just take a photo with their camera?
Because they might not need exceptionally high quality, and not planning 
to do enough pages to justify building a rig for high quality and 
production volume.  Or, they're in a hurry, and are copying stuff that 
they are not authorized to do.


Why does someone NOT just take a photo with their camera?
They might need better quality.  just having a good stable vibration=free 
mount makes a difference.  When you want high quality images, such as of a 
full page of text, a very tiny bit of movement during exposure is enough 
to mess up the quality.
And, there is the issue of volume.  I once created a 10,000 page 
documentary appendix for a report that EPA commissioned us to do about 
state regulatory activities in the great lakes states.  I needed 
portability (not concealment level!), so I used a tripod with inverted 
center post and a Leica IIIa with a focoslide.  Just the knurled film wind 
was enough to give me nasty blisters on my fingers.
If you are doing a lot, then you want a setup that minimizes what you 
need to do for each one.

When working with books, flattening them enough to scan them damages the 
binding.  A rig such as this permits photographic copying with the book 
open 90 degrees, instead of 180.  You might not care, but if you don't own 
the book, then you have a resposibility to not damage it.  It wouldn't 
matter for most of my books, but I have just a few where if you break the 
spine, then I will break your spine.


Some enhancements are to improve the image quality; some are to minimize 
the damage and wear of the source materials; and some are to make it 
quicker and easier to get more done.


How many pages are you going to do?
What materials are you working from?
What quality do you need?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Fri Feb 19 22:06:47 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 20:06:47 -0800
Subject: Non-binding-breaking Book scanners (Was: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191646090.27580@shell.lmi.net>
References: <2c7048.449b22c7.43f8aa5f@aol.com>
 <F77A9E78-5685-4BD9-86F2-BEC92424459A@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602190950140.4585@deltasoft.com>
 <950B39B0-CA9D-4561-9722-FF0BEC87B5E9@verizon.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191027580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191317450.12163@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191353560.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602191442180.15279@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191444580.27580@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA3rs20sPBS6LsxFnOmRvfi7C_CU7b1o4cmgxy_5YnS29pyTpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602191646090.27580@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <6C2A21D7-C02A-4B14-B586-5CCE2DA5390C@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 19, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> It wouldn't matter for most of my books, but I have just a few where if you break the spine, then I will break your spine.

If anyone is still maintaining a "fortunes" file, please add the above.

--lyndon


From jbglaw at lug-owl.de  Sat Feb 20 06:29:19 2016
From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:29:19 +0100
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
Message-ID: <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>

On Thu, 2016-02-18 22:27:17 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote:
>   The second box (3100/38 with graphics and flopp) does have a SCSI
> daugher board, but it's quite different to
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/s1.jpg on
> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html . I made a photo of my
> board: http://lug-owl.de/~jbglaw/VAXstation_3100m38_scsi_board.jpeg
> 
>   There are, I think, two more MicroVAX 3100 systems down there, which
> I didn't yet dismantle. Though the could have a matching board... Will
> check these tomorrow.

Actually, there were even more 3100 machines than I thought. But none
of them had a board like that one mentioned above. So it seems I
cannot help you.

MfG, JBG

-- 
      Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de              +49-172-7608481
Signature of:          GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?
the second  :

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 20 06:53:58 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:53:58 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81C4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Just started working on mine - been a back-burnered project for a long
> time. Unfortunately all the cables were cut when it was dismantled; I
> was lucky to grab just the CPU.

I had to re-fit all the cables on mine (a painful job), but at least I had them
all, uncut.

> Got it powered up ok - no drama there. I faked cables to the port on

Are all 3 LEDs on the PSU distribution board (under the transparent cover
at the top rear of the PSU) glowing? If not, you have a PSU problem.

> the WCS which drives the console and hooked up my trust VT220 at 2400
> baud. Nada. No self-test prompt; no ROM> prompt.

The oriignal console cable was a straight through ribbon cable with a header
socket (to fit the WCS board) at one end and a DB25 plug at the other. It plugs
into a filter module on the distibution panel, again straight through with a DB25
plug on the outside. This is wired as a DTE (terminal), you need a null modem
cable. Only pins 1,2,3,7 are used, the official cable (I had to make a copy of it)
wires 1 and 7 straght through, swaps 2 and 3 and swaps 6 and 20, but you don't
need the last pair.

Have you set the DIP switch on the WCS board correctly? You can certainly have 300,
1200,2400 or 9600 baud. IIRC some of the other switches do very odd things, so make
sure they are set as the manual says.

I assume you have checked you are plugged into the console port and not the 
remote diagnostic port.

> Maybe I've messed up the faked console cable; I'll check - already
> tried obvious things like making sure Rx & Tx were crossed (it's a
> three wire cable according to the schematics - Rx Tx Gnd; no flow
> control). But I'd like to know more about the assorted LEDs on the CPU
> boards; maybe there's a clue there if it's not getting far enough into
> the self-test to display console output. There's a fair few LEDs on
> the M8391. But the doc I've looked through on Bitsavers doesn't seem
> to document their meanings and interpretations. Can anyone help on
> that point?

They're shown on page 208 of the printset on bitsavers. They display
the memory controller microcode address (nothing to do with the CPU
microcode, the memory controller has its own ROM firmware). I don't
think the memory controller is used by the console ROMs, so I doubt
if this is the problem.

Start by checking the power supply rails (if you haven't already done so),
then see if the 8085 console processor is running, and if it tries to access
the console serial chip.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 20 06:56:43 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:56:43 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
> goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...

I can't remember exactly what mine does, but I do remember 2 LEDs at one 
end being on when it settles down. So I think yours is probably OK.

Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

-tony

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 07:44:32 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 02:44:32 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:56 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> See row of red LEDs on M8391? On power-up the leftmost LED lights and
>> goes out. Then the rightmost two LEDs light and stay on...
>
> I can't remember exactly what mine does, but I do remember 2 LEDs at one
> end being on when it settles down. So I think yours is probably OK.
>
> Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

That's good to know on the LEDs. Yes I checked the PSU first; three
red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.
think I have the console cable correct - and just in case I buggered
the Rx/Tx I tried it with them swapped. Nothing. Never so much as a
garbage character on the terminal - and I know the terminal works ok!
Nothing funky in the settings there as far as I can see.

Anything you can tell me about  the POST on your machine - the timing
- what appears on the console and when etc. - would be helpful.

I plan to use an Arduino-based TU58 emulator when the time comes =
although I would like real working TU58s too!

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Sat Feb 20 08:36:28 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:36:28 -0500
Subject: got it. RE: Looking for PDP handbook
In-Reply-To: <000001d16b70$48a977b0$d9fc6710$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d16b70$48a977b0$d9fc6710$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EB37873-EE05-42C8-86A2-2BE99DD7CEB4@verizon.net>

Thanks Jay! I dropped you an email off-list.


Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32







On 2/19/16, 6:50 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>Richard wrote...
>--------------
>All -- I've been searching for an online version of the LSI-11 Processor
>Handbook from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03) but I can't seem to
>locate it anywhere. 
>
>Does anyone have a link to it or, alternatively,  a real copy that maybe I
>can scan?
>---------------
>
>I probably have several hundred of those dec handbooks, organized by year. I
>just pulled the one you want...
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25043539971/in/dateposted/
>
>Richard - it's yours for "the cost of a beer if we ever meet". All I ask is
>that if one isn't online anywhere, you make reasonable efforts at some point
>to get it scanned and available to the public.
>
>Email me your shipping address off-list.
>
>J
>
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 20 08:46:31 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:46:31 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > Of course I don't know mine works, I need to get a working TU58 tape...

Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer, it does pass the console POST,
then gives read errors on both drives (as there is no tape in them), then
gives the ROM> prompt. So mine is getting further than yours, but until
I have a working microcode tape, I don't know how much of the rest of 
the machine is good.

> That's good to know on the LEDs. Yes I checked the PSU first; three
> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.

OK... Sounds like your PSU is OK. But worth checking the voltages 
just in case!

> think I have the console cable correct - and just in case I buggered
> the Rx/Tx I tried it with them swapped. Nothing. Never so much as a

When I was routing the cables in my machine (as I was rack-mounting it, 
I had to put the R80, RL02, console, remote diagnostics, TS05 and
DMF32 cables all in at once), I actually buzzed out a few non-ground
connections between connectors on the distibution panel and IC pins
on the right board (from the printset) just to be sure I hadn't got them
mixed up or turned over or anything. It might be worth just checking
that the RS232 chips on the WCS board do connect to the pins on the
terminal you think they go to.

I don't want to 'teach you to suck eggs' (especially since I think you've
been doing this longer than I have) but bitter experience has taught me
that checking 'the obvious' as you go along means you only have real
faults to trace.

> Anything you can tell me about  the POST on your machine - the timing
> - what appears on the console and when etc. - would be helpful.

I will turn mine on later to check. IIRC it prints the first 4 or so characters of
the header line, then pauses (RAM check I think), then the rest of the line,
then the device error messages with a short pause between them, then
the ROM> prompt (from which you can only enter ctrl-C to try to re-read the
tape). One of the manuals on bitsavers (I think it's the diagnostic manual)
explains this, and mine seems to do what the manual says.

Have you checked signals round the 8085 yet? Is it being held reset? Is it
clocking, accessing ROM, etc?

> I plan to use an Arduino-based TU58 emulator when the time comes =
> although I would like real working TU58s too!

I am more interested in having an 'original' machine than a machine to
run VMS on :-). What I mean by that is that I do want to have the TU58
working, rather than some replacement for it. I have replaced the drive 
pucks, in fact I've just been turning another pair for my standalone 
TU58 (which I will use to write a console tape if I can ever find a good
cartridge). The console tape I have has dropouts, is shedding oxide,
etc. The read waveform looks horrible.

I have socketed the 8155 I/O chip in both TU58s (11/730 CPU and 
standalone). If I pull it, I can ground pins on the socket to select
a drive, start the motor, control speed (normal or seeking), direction
etc. I can then use a 'scope on the output of a read amplfier or
a logic analyser around the data separator to see what is going
on. Just got to keep an eye on how far the tape has gone so I
can reverse it before it runs off the end.

If I was going to use a solid-state replacement for the tape I would
probably use the original controller board, put the 8155 on a 
daughterboard plugged into the 8155 socket on the controller, 
use the port pins of the 8155 to link to some kind of flash memory
device and re-write the 8085 firmware. At least then it would be partly
the original. Using a processor with more components than the rest of
the machine (perhaps I exagerate...) seems a bit silly.

-tony

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 10:18:14 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:18:14 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 20, 2016 7:29 AM, "Jan-Benedict Glaw" <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2016-02-18 22:27:17 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de>
wrote:
> >   The second box (3100/38 with graphics and flopp) does have a SCSI
> > daugher board, but it's quite different to
> > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/s1.jpg on
> > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html . I made a photo of my
> > board: http://lug-owl.de/~jbglaw/VAXstation_3100m38_scsi_board.jpeg
> >
> >   There are, I think, two more MicroVAX 3100 systems down there, which
> > I didn't yet dismantle. Though the could have a matching board... Will
> > check these tomorrow.
>
> Actually, there were even more 3100 machines than I thought. But none
> of them had a board like that one mentioned above. So it seems I
> cannot help you.
>
> MfG, JBG
>
> --
>       Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de
+49-172-7608481
> Signature of:          GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have
'fix' too?
> the second  :

In the spirit of Microban 3100s I resumed work on mine.  Hopefully
microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net will be available for telnet soon
Bill

From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Feb 20 10:26:36 2016
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 10:26:36 -0600
Subject: Australian CP/M era computers?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp
 >
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <mailman.33.1455985616.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>


Can anyone help idenitfy these?

https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/46nse6/a_family_member_found_these_old_computers_in_a/

- John


From rlloken at telus.net  Sat Feb 20 10:29:37 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:29:37 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>

I have not been following this conversation but maybe I should have been.

I have a complete VAXstation 3100 model 30 sitting within arm's reach.  It
worked when I dumped it there five years ago: it has the VAXstation 3100
desktop cabinet, an identical cabinet containing the SCSI drive, an RRD-40
CDrom drive, and the monochrome monitor.

I can open it up and provide you with information if you tell me what
you are looking for.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Feb 20 11:16:17 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:16:17 -0500
Subject: got it. RE: Looking for PDP handbook
Message-ID: <541e7.6592b965.43f9f960@aol.com>

Rich and Jay this middle  book in this  url is the   one  we have here at  
museum  the  thin  one Jay is  sending you   we have never  owned. Is it 
uncommon  or??    Yes  by all means   photo/scan  the  thing!
 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25092973706/in/photostream/

the 11/40  series books   seem  to  be the   ones  we run into the most   
and I  should  round  them all up from the various buildings   and   keep 2   
sets and  blow the others  out  for people to set next to  their  
processors.
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/19/2016 4:50:26 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

Richard  wrote...
--------------
All -- I've been searching for an online version  of the LSI-11 Processor
Handbook from 1975 (which I think covers the 11/03)  but I can't seem to
locate it anywhere. 

Does anyone have a link to  it or, alternatively,  a real copy that maybe I
can  scan?
---------------

I probably have several hundred of those dec  handbooks, organized by year. 
I
just pulled the one you  want...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25043539971/in/dateposted/

Richard  - it's yours for "the cost of a beer if we ever meet". All I ask is
that if  one isn't online anywhere, you make reasonable efforts at some 
point
to get  it scanned and available to the public.

Email me your shipping address  off-list.

J




From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Sat Feb 20 13:10:21 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:10:21 +0000
Subject: Apple Lisa I/O board diodes
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd69hDBvA+0B9qWwvPQE-KAUaDfsU2aQPg7oPrW_hvcVWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2EE6A9D.52216%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

Phew.

Removed and cleaned up the components around the area, cleaned up the holes,
resoldered everything and replaced the 2 10K resistors that perished, check
for continuity, spend an hour trying to find a US power cord and...

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaWorking2016.jpg

Same can't be said for its ProFile however, it span up and came online for
around a second before gracefully powering down so obviously a PSU issue
there. Add that to the 'things to fix' list.

Turns out my other Lisa is an upgraded 2/5 as well, I thought it was a
native 2/10 so the I/O board is the same as the damaged one. For reference
D8 is a 1N5234A 6.2V 20mA Zener. That machine doesn't power up either but
I've never tried in the 10+ years I've had it.

Adrian


On 19/02/2016 01:02, "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI, I get a 403 on that link.
> 
> As for the diode, unless the leads are seriously rotted, why not just make
> a +note+ of it - and leave it alone? It's a hermetically sealed package
> (glass+metal, right?) and not likely to have suffered in any way, aside
> from the cosmetic issue.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> 'Decaying battery' panic led me to unearthing my Lisa 2/5 to check the
>> state
>> of the batteries on the I/O board since it hadn't been out of its box or
>> powered up since 2005. Fortunately the damage is very minimal and is only
>> restricted to track discolouration and external rotting of one particular
>> diode which I can't find mention of on my schematics.
>> 
>> Anyone with a 2/5 care to check their I/O board for me please? The diode is
>> D8, just above the battery location. It's in the board in such a way as to
>> make its markings pretty unreadable in the pictures I took before cleaning,
>> but it's the only white diode in the machine and I'm guessing it might be a
>> 5.6V 1N4734A based on what I can see. Fortunately it still works for now,
>> 0.7V voltage drop.
>> 
>> Pic of the board before cleaning is at
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/LisaIOBoard.jpg
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> --
>> Adrian/Witchy
>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
>> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
>> collection?
>> 
>> 
>> 

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 20 13:23:09 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:23:09 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


[...]

> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.

Eh? There is no way to set it for 4800 baud (the installation manual,
printset, and my tests all agree on what baud rates are available).

How do you have the switches set? 

Note that if switch 2 (of the DIP switch at location E47 on the WCS 
board which is the one that controls the console baud rate) is closed
then the 8085 consol processor is held in a wait state. If you have done
this then of course you will get nothing on the terminal.

-tony

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sat Feb 20 06:37:20 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 07:37:20 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
Message-ID: <-7416576842415958123@unknownmsgid>

Thank you for looking. I really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:29 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2016-02-18 22:27:17 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> wrote:
>>  The second box (3100/38 with graphics and flopp) does have a SCSI
>> daugher board, but it's quite different to
>> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/s1.jpg on
>> http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html . I made a photo of my
>> board: http://lug-owl.de/~jbglaw/VAXstation_3100m38_scsi_board.jpeg
>>
>>  There are, I think, two more MicroVAX 3100 systems down there, which
>> I didn't yet dismantle. Though the could have a matching board... Will
>> check these tomorrow.
>
> Actually, there were even more 3100 machines than I thought. But none
> of them had a board like that one mentioned above. So it seems I
> cannot help you.
>
> MfG, JBG
>
> --
>      Jan-Benedict Glaw      jbglaw at lug-owl.de              +49-172-7608481
> Signature of:          GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?
> the second  :

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sat Feb 20 10:35:45 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:35:45 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <-5886261938395946092@unknownmsgid>

Richard

Thanks for the note. I think I might have a unique beast on my hands.
The controller board has a single SCSI connector and an MFM connector
for my floppy drive. There is an empty socket on the board (bottom row
third from left if you are standing above the machine with the front
facing you) and every other photo of any 3100 SCSI board shows a chip
with a sticker on it (EPROM?) in that socket.

The behavior I am seeing is that I do not see the floppy or the hard
drive (or for that matter the SCSI bus) when I execute test commands
from the serial console. This leads me to believe that the missing
chip has the firmware for the controller on it.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>
> I have not been following this conversation but maybe I should have been.
>
> I have a complete VAXstation 3100 model 30 sitting within arm's reach.  It
> worked when I dumped it there five years ago: it has the VAXstation 3100
> desktop cabinet, an identical cabinet containing the SCSI drive, an RRD-40
> CDrom drive, and the monochrome monitor.
>
> I can open it up and provide you with information if you tell me what
> you are looking for.
>
> --
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University                   : tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada               : heads are naked!"
>  ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net  Sat Feb 20 00:02:50 2016
From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 00:02:50 -0600
Subject: Looking for a file (HP-UX 11.x)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1454781600.83309.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1454781600.83309.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <664EC99A-B524-41CF-A116-A5F00401727B@comcast.net>

I have some PA-RISC workstations in storage and an itanium server (that is a bit more accessible) that should both have 11i on them - it amy be a while before I can get to either of them - what would you need?
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 28
> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 18:23:31 -0500
> From: Bryan Everly <bryan at bceassociates.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Looking for a file
> Message-ID: <6592215753613049498 at unknownmsgid>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Does anyone out there have access to an HP-UX 11.x system?  I am
> looking for a ROM image file for the FX-e video card to help me write
> an OpenBSD frame buffer driver for this platform.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan
> 


From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sat Feb 20 10:44:12 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:44:12 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>

Also I found a SCSI only controller on eBay for $30 that did have the
eprom in it so I picked it up. I will try it and see if I can at least
see the SCSI bus and drive. If that works then what do you think my
odds are of being able to move the eprom over to the SCSI/MFM board
and getting my floppy working?

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>
> I have not been following this conversation but maybe I should have been.
>
> I have a complete VAXstation 3100 model 30 sitting within arm's reach.  It
> worked when I dumped it there five years ago: it has the VAXstation 3100
> desktop cabinet, an identical cabinet containing the SCSI drive, an RRD-40
> CDrom drive, and the monochrome monitor.
>
> I can open it up and provide you with information if you tell me what
> you are looking for.
>
> --
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University                   : tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada               : heads are naked!"
>  ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From stark at mit.edu  Sat Feb 20 12:51:39 2016
From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:51:39 +0000
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
Message-ID: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>

I work on Postgres and we have always claimed to support VAX machines
but have the caveat "Code support exists for M32R and VAX, but these
architectures are not known to have been tested recently." in our
documentation. Recently I started a project to get a member in our
build farm building Postgres for VAX to fill this gap. So far I've
been using simh but I would be really interested in getting a decently
fast VAX that doesn't take too much space (or power) to run builds on.

I am currently in Europe (Dublin) but will be visiting NYC, Florida,
and Montreal in the upcoming months so this is a good chance for me to
pick one up without paying exorbitant shipping if there's any around.

-- 
greg

From gerardcjat at free.fr  Sat Feb 20 15:31:30 2016
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 22:31:30 +0100
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
Message-ID: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>

Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and  .... How often you use it  ?

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat Feb 20 16:27:29 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 22:27:29 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:44:12 -0500"
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <01PWX9Y2J1OC00C2NL@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Also I found a SCSI only controller on eBay for $30 that did have the
> eprom in it so I picked it up. I will try it and see if I can at least
> see the SCSI bus and drive. If that works then what do you think my
> odds are of being able to move the eprom over to the SCSI/MFM board
> and getting my floppy working?
>

Hi Bryan,

I don't know for sure but I can't imagine the firmware that comes with
a different piece of hardware is going to be of any use to fill the gap.

I would suggest substituting the entire board with the SCSI only controller
you bought.  That should at least get you access to SCSI hard disks.

To be able to use the floppy, you will need a second board that goes
between the floppy cable and the SCSI controller.  Maybe that might be
included in what you bought, maybe not.

Another possibility would be to try contacting the person whose website
you got the picture from and asking him to copy his EPROM.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 16:48:38 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:48:38 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPpqDBkYB8hEqCh4yqWez4HdNfqKzh7UWfU+0JP1+kRnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 8:23 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.
>
> Eh? There is no way to set it for 4800 baud (the installation manual,
> printset, and my tests all agree on what baud rates are available).
>
> How do you have the switches set?
>
> Note that if switch 2 (of the DIP switch at location E47 on the WCS
> board which is the one that controls the console baud rate) is closed
> then the 8085 consol processor is held in a wait state. If you have done
> this then of course you will get nothing on the terminal.

Ugh I brain-typoed; of course I meant "2400 - the default"!

And one of the first thing I did was check for traces going to pins on
the WCS console connector; that's why I'm confident my wiring is OK.

But I will recheck switches.

I haven't got into scoping the 8085 yet; this is really a quick and
dirty sanity check: does it get the ROM> prompt? Yes... great - move
on. Status known. No... check obvious finger trouble... still dead?
Not good but status known... move on.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sat Feb 20 17:24:40 2016
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 23:24:40 +0000
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <-5886261938395946092@unknownmsgid>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <-5886261938395946092@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <56C8F5B8.7090201@ntlworld.com>

On 20/02/16 16:35, Bryan Everly wrote:
> Richard
>
> Thanks for the note. I think I might have a unique beast on my hands.
> The controller board has a single SCSI connector and an MFM connector
> for my floppy drive. There is an empty socket on the board (bottom row
> third from left if you are standing above the machine with the front
> facing you) and every other photo of any 3100 SCSI board shows a chip
> with a sticker on it (EPROM?) in that socket.
>

I also have a VS3100 nearby - but it needs to be dug out :-)

Do you have a part number? Better yet do you have a photo?
(Sorry if you've said all this and I missed it ... I'm a little behind on my
reading ...)

Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org


From dave at 661.org  Sat Feb 20 17:50:33 2016
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 23:50:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Panda Display USB prototype boards are in
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602202348270.1419@nyx.feedle.net>


I just received three prototype Panda Display USB boards from Oshpark. 
Now to finish the emulator side of the project and I'll have more to offer 
up for sale.  One or two of these prototypes might be available now if you 
can make a good case for it (ie, you feel comfortable hacking klh10 to get 
it working with the board).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582 at N02/24861506310/in/dateposted-public/

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 18:03:36 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:03:36 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 8:23 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> red lights. The baud rate switches are set for 4800 - the default.
>
> Eh? There is no way to set it for 4800 baud (the installation manual,
> printset, and my tests all agree on what baud rates are available).
>
> How do you have the switches set?

I just double checked. 3 was open; 4 was closed. That's default 2400.

Switch 8 was also closed; I have no idea of its function. All other
switches were open.

I set ALL switches to open - including 3 & 8. 3 & 4 open gives 9600
baud. I have no idea what setting 8 open does - but it didn't change
behaviour. Still nothing on console. Grrrr.

I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
must be valid...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Feb 20 18:09:29 2016
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:09:29 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>

On 2/20/2016 7:03 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
> wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
> operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
> must be valid...

Make sure the switches are actually working.  Often, they're not.

- J.



From rlloken at telus.net  Sat Feb 20 18:12:25 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:12:25 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016, Bryan Everly wrote:

> Also I found a SCSI only controller on eBay for $30 that did have the
> eprom in it so I picked it up. I will try it and see if I can at least
> see the SCSI bus and drive. If that works then what do you think my
> odds are of being able to move the eprom over to the SCSI/MFM board
> and getting my floppy working?

I vote against moving the eprom to your controller, I expect they are not
the same.  If you can get the SCSI controller working then pretend you
don't have a floppy drive, it would be more useful to install a CDrom
drive, I have seen VAX/VMS distros on cds and on TK50 tapes but never had
call to want a floppy drive.

I think the 3100 will be very particular about the model of CD drive that
you attach.

So I looked in mine and sent you a couple pictures of the SCSI controller
which does not have a floppy controller on it.  I have a couple manuals
for the VS3100 but I cannot find them at the moments.  Since I had the
box open, I removed the NiCd battery pack which is not leaking but just
might do that some day.

I am interested in knowing what is gained by having an floppy drive since
most VAXstations do not seem to have one.  I have worked mostly with large
VAXen: the VAX 8600, 8650, 8820, 4000 model 300, and 4000 model 505A
as well as two little VAXstations: the 2000 and the 3100 and none of
them had a floppy drive.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 20:54:18 2016
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:54:18 -0500
Subject: Then & Now
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9HKA42T+rydEBc90F2jJUK5XU6KSoNwAUNfzn5P6qdsg@mail.gmail.com>

The microcomputer market back when classic computers were the in-thing
saw $1000 machines ; software costing $10s or $100s. Today
hardware-wise $500 buys a powerful machine while many apps/programs
are free or cost in the low $10s. Todays machine are 1000x maybe a
million times faster. Interesting history for machines we love!

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat Feb 20 23:25:07 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:25:07 -0800
Subject: Another MEM11 update
Message-ID: <56C94A33.9060108@shiresoft.com>

Just to let everyone know, I'm making pretty good progress.

I just hit "code complete" on the FPGA.  That means I've written all of the
Verilog code for the FPGA that is the heart of the MEM11.  This includes
*all* of the Unibus functionality.  It all synthesizes for the FPGA and
the remaining warnings are all "understood" and best of all it *fits* in
my chosen FPGA.

Interrupts were fun because I had to figure out how to propagate the bus
grants from one (internal) device to the next since their ordering isn't 
fixed
(you can re-arrange the order of the interrupting devices...ie change their
slot order).  In addition, the interrupting devices aren't fixed to specific
request priority...so it ended up being a bit more complicated than I had
originally envisioned but once I sat down and thought about it and started
writing the code, it wasn't all that hard (just a lot of code).

DMA was just a pain but one good side effect is that I created a 1KW(*) FIFO
for DMA transactions and the DMA state machine will run as long as there
is data in the FIFO.  This means that the J1 only has to deal with DMA at
the start, end or when the FIFO needs refilling rather than on every word.
The DMA also has a programmable "delay" so that it won't swamp the Unibus
and starve the PDP-11 CPU.  For the RF11 (the only DMA device on the MEM11)
this will typically be set to the original transaction speed of the RF11 
disks
(for 60Hz machines that would be a word every 16us or 19.2us for 50Hz
machines).  There are configuration settings in the RF11 emulation that
specify the rotational speed of the RF11 disks as well as the DMA transfer
delay.

I'm now off to start writing a bunch of test cases for the various blocks so
that I can start to simulate the design.  Once I'm happy with the simulation
results, I'll start to create the schematic for the MEM11.

Because I'm so tight on pins (I'm using 129 out of the 158 I/O pins), I'm
having to use some of the "multi-function" pins.  The main implication is
that I might need to use a small CPLD so that I can switch between the
different functions.  The main set of multi-function pins that I have to 
use
are the ones used by the FPGA to load it's bit-stream on power on reset.
This is an understood problem and isn't something that I have to worry
about now.  The only impact will be in re-assigning pins so that low speed
I/Os (LEDs, and sense jumpers) are only shared with those pins.

I'll post another status update once I've made some significant progress on
the simulation and testing.

TTFN - Guy

(*) The reason that I chose a 1KW FIFO rather than something smaller is that
the "block RAM" in the FPGA comes in 18Kbit "chunks".  So the easiest course
was to use one of them configured as 1K x 16 (I'm ignoring the 2 
"parity" bits
in the "block RAM") as the memory for the FIFO.  Since I'm using less 
than half
of the "block RAMs" (all of the other used "block RAMs" are used for the 
RAM
for the J1) I can make the FIFO substantially larger if I need to.

From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Feb 21 03:10:24 2016
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:10:24 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <56C32D99.7030306@gmx.net>
References: <56C32D99.7030306@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <56C97F00.4060409@e-bbes.com>

On 2016-02-16 15:09, Andreas Sikkema wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is anyone interested in PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems? We at Hack42 have no
> idea what to do with them. We need to downsize and these take up a
> significant amount of our space.

So, are they all taken? Anybody picked them up?

Cheers


From fulivi at tiscali.it  Sun Feb 21 03:56:34 2016
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:56:34 +0100
Subject: Internal HP docs on 9845 sys?
Message-ID: <56C989D2.3070101@tiscali.it>

Hi everyone,

I've been working for the last few months on implementing the MAME
emulator of HP 9845B system.
In case you're interested, have a look at MAME development page at
https://github.com/mamedev/mame.
My emulator mostly works, the main missing thing now is the graphic
mode and the ability to load optional ROMs.
Anyway, I'm posting here because I'd like to ask you a few questions on
HP docs.
The last thing I worked on for this emulator is the "TACO" tape driver.
I reverse engineered it
entirely from sw & the (scarce) docs available enough that it works.
So here a few questions for you:
* Back in the days, what was the HP approach to document
internally-developped chips for its own
  sw developers? I mean, was there a kind of programmers' guide for TACO
chip? Is there any hope
  someone scanned it and made it available somewhere? I know that for
hybrid processors HP made
  an internal manual titled something like "how they do dat" manual...
* Just out of curiosity, what a big company like HP does with its
"historical" documents? Do they
  have an archive where they keep documents & sw from, say, the 70s? Or
do they throw everything away
  when there is some kind of company "shake-up" such as big layoff
phases, closing of a site, merging
  and splitting of divisions?

Thank you.

-- F.Ulivi

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Feb 20 16:42:20 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 16:42:20 -0600
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <56C8EBCC.5050303@pico-systems.com>

On 02/20/2016 03:31 PM, GerardCJAT wrote:
> Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and  .... How often you use it  ?
>
I had a Tek 1240.  Not bad, kind of short record length, but 
you could put a bunch of channels on it.  But, it was REALLY 
SLOWWWW to format up the display, and every couple pages 
when scanning back and forth in time it would have to go 
through the reformat again.  It did have a Z-80 
disassembler, which was real nice at the time.

I then moved up to a Tek 9200 DAS.  I got it off eBay for 
$700 when it went out of support from Tek.  Mine has 288 
channels (3 each 92A96D cards) and cost $128,000 new.  These 
cards have 96 channels at 100 MHz and 128K record length.  
Supposedly, there's a way to link channels and get 200 MHz, 
but I haven't figured out how to do it.  It is still a 
little laggy when scrolling, but quite tolerable.  There is 
a crazy way to add the Tek LA font to your X server so you 
can run it from any X windows server.  I have this working 
at work, with a TLA520.  At home I have the 9200
with their X-terminal, so I haven't bothered to set up the X 
server to display from the LA.  (The TLA520 is almost 
identical to the 9200, but in a smaller box.)

I've never used an HP LA, so I really can't compare.  I did 
have one case at work where we had a really rare failure, 
where a particular data word in a stream of words was 
wrong.  I was able to set up a sequence of conditionals on 
the TLA520 to step through to the specific word of the 
packet and then if a certain range of bits was all zeros, 
trigger the analyzer.  This was really great, as the failure 
would only happen every 3-5 minutes.  I suppose the HP 
analyzers have a similar capability.

Jon

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 17:17:26 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 15:17:26 -0800
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK0rgGR1bhXHQUc4vAdpeF7LVxjWtQtH8AYEMhpNa7z1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM, GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr> wrote:
> Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and  .... How often you use it  ?

If you are primarily asking about traditional big box with large
number of parallel channel logic analyzers (as opposed to 8/16 channel
USB based analyzers) I don't think you could go wrong with an HP /
Agilent 16700 series if you have the room to set one up.

At least in the US you should be able to pick up a bare mainframe
somewhere around $100, which shouldn't be much more than any older
generation HP / Agilent logic analyzers. Plug in logic analyzer
modules shouldn't cost too much and are readily available, along with
the necessary breakout lead sets and grabbers. With a 16700 series you
can hook up an external monitor at up to 1280x1024 or optionally
1600x1200 and you can see a lot of information simultaneously. Much
more so than on the older series with built in CRT displays.

For vintage micro work there were lots of CPU interfaces available,
although they are not always easy to find.

I have the following set of CPU preprocessor modules which mate with a
10269C interface for use with HP / Agilent logic analyzers:
10300B (64683A) Z80
10304B (64655A) 8085
10305B (64653A) 8086/8088
10307B (64672B) 6800/6802
10308B (64671A) 6809/6809E
10311B (64670A) 68000/68010
10312B (64657A) 80286
10314B (64659A) 80386
10342B RS-232C/V.24, RS-499, HP-IB bus preprocessor interface.
Also an E2423A SCSI bus preprocessor interface.

I have HP / Agilent 1660C, 16500A/B/C, 16600A, 16700A/B, 16702B, and
16900A analyzers. Most often (which isn't really all that often) I
would likely use a 16700B. I should get a 16700B set up with the
E2423A SCSI probe to take a look at what is going on when I try to use
an Emulex UC07 SCSI controller with some hard drives that it doesn't
seem to like.

I also have Tek TLA714/720/721 and TLA7016 logic analyzers. They don't
quite seem as natural to use to me as the HP / Agilent analyzers. Also
the cables and breakout lead sets seem to typically be more expensive
than the HP / Agilent ones.

-Glen

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sat Feb 20 18:29:13 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:29:13 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <1229350600928094412@unknownmsgid>

I was planning on installing OpenBSD on this box from a floppy image
however I can just swap the whole board and do a net boot of the
installer.

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2016, Bryan Everly wrote:
>>
>> Also I found a SCSI only controller on eBay for $30 that did have the
>> eprom in it so I picked it up. I will try it and see if I can at least
>> see the SCSI bus and drive. If that works then what do you think my
>> odds are of being able to move the eprom over to the SCSI/MFM board
>> and getting my floppy working?
>
> I vote against moving the eprom to your controller, I expect they are not
> the same.  If you can get the SCSI controller working then pretend you
> don't have a floppy drive, it would be more useful to install a CDrom
> drive, I have seen VAX/VMS distros on cds and on TK50 tapes but never had
> call to want a floppy drive.
>
> I think the 3100 will be very particular about the model of CD drive that
> you attach.
>
> So I looked in mine and sent you a couple pictures of the SCSI controller
> which does not have a floppy controller on it.  I have a couple manuals
> for the VS3100 but I cannot find them at the moments.  Since I had the
> box open, I removed the NiCd battery pack which is not leaking but just
> might do that some day.
>
> I am interested in knowing what is gained by having an floppy drive since
> most VAXstations do not seem to have one.  I have worked mostly with large
> VAXen: the VAX 8600, 8650, 8820, 4000 model 300, and 4000 model 505A
> as well as two little VAXstations: the 2000 and the 3100 and none of
> them had a floppy drive.
>
> --
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University                   : tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada               : heads are naked!"
>  ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From cramcram at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 19:29:22 2016
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:29:22 -0800
Subject: Schematic for PA68-F (High speed paper taper reader/punch for PDP-8)
Message-ID: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for the schematic for a PA68-F.  It's a two high collection of
single width M series modules that implements the paper tape high speed
reader/punch control for positive bus machines.

I found a Typeset 8 document that describes the maintenance for the beast
but not the schematics which are apparently in Dec document A-ML-PA68-F.

Does anyone out there know where I can download this document?

Thanks,

Marc

From wkt at tuhs.org  Sat Feb 20 21:54:08 2016
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:54:08 +1000
Subject: Any PDP-7 Expertise?
Message-ID: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>

Hi all. Some of you may know me as the guy who set up the Unix Heritage
Society at www.tuhs.org. We've been able to restore some of the old Unix
systems to working order, including a PDP-11/20 version from 1972.

I've just been given a scan of the assembly listing for PDP-7 Unix
which includes the kernel and some user-mode programs. The scans are
at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/McIlroy_v0/
as the files 0*.pdf.

I have this crazy idea that this system could be resurrected to working
order on SimH and/or on a real PDP-7. But I'd a) need to learn the PDP-7
architecture, b) write an assembler, c) OCR the scan (manually) and
d) spend a lot of time debugging something that has no user manual and
may not even work!

I thought I'd ask here if there is any PDP-7 expertise that I could lean
on if I decided to actually proceed.

Many thanks in advance for pointers, suggestions, help.
        Warren

P.S I've already found http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html
the PDP-7 Reference Manual f75ppdp7prelimumdec64.pdf and
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp7/`

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 02:46:20 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 00:46:20 -0800
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <DBEA76EC-D3F3-47CE-A976-2C9823916B1B@gmail.com>

Like most others, the favorite is the one I use! So we are all biased by definition, and I have an HP 1670G. In general I?d go straight to Tek for vintage scopes and HP for vintage LAs, and be very somewhat leery about doing the opposite...  I chose it because it is small and portable, has a boatload of channels, the pattern generator, LCD color screen, integrated keyboard, and mine had the 2M deep memory option (important). And I collect HP instruments, so it fits right in. Rarer, more recent and expensive (but still very affordable) than the dirt cheap CRT based 16xx series - has a hard disk and the memory humph. I don?t use it often, but when I do it?s critical. It saved me on two projects so far, developing my HP 7970 tape HP?IB driver and repairing my Documation card reader (all documented on my YouTube videos if you want to get a feel for it). The one downside is the lack of a touchscreen, you need a mouse and a lot of clicking around. The 15000/16000 series is better for that but a much larger unit, it would be a step up though. If you want to save $ go in the other direction for the B&W 16xx series. At their current price points, any of them is an absolute steal compared to what they can do for you, and they are all perfectly usable. Good time to buy one.
Marc

From:  cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr>
Reply-To:  GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr>, "cctech at classiccmp.org" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Date:  Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM
To:  "cctech at classiccmp.org" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject:  Logic Analyser Polling ....

Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and  .... How often you use it  ?



From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 04:51:19 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 23:51:19 +1300
Subject: Any PDP-7 Expertise?
In-Reply-To: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPdptXW=yoUhqyqP7GAPAJ3raSsJdvFFAJJgriX6A3Zyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> I've just been given a scan of the assembly listing for PDP-7 Unix
> which includes the kernel and some user-mode programs. The scans are
> at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/McIlroy_v0/
> as the files 0*.pdf.

Oh.

A few years ago I corresponded with DMR about precisely this project.
He mentioned having those listings; we pondered whether it would be
practical to get them machine-readable and try to get them loaded and
booting on one of my pdp-15s to recreate an operational 18-bit Unix...
but ultimately decided it was impractical at the time.

And from 2007...

"Post by Dennis Ritchie
Was there a PDP-9 [Unix] port? Mr. Ritchie, sir?
Yes, Ken moved the -7 system to both the PDP-9 and PDP-15
just to try them out. Minimal effort, just some new drivers, no
effort to take advantage of extra features on either. Total time
they actually ran was probably measured in hours or a few
days at most. One of the machines ran a step-and-repeat
camera for making IC masks.
And all that software is presumably long gone along with the PDP-7 version.
Oh, well."

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From spedraja at ono.com  Sun Feb 21 04:56:16 2016
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:56:16 +0100
Subject: Any PDP-7 Expertise?
In-Reply-To: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8g5aDGqdb87OmTaoXSHxgH1cQyS5EBcjsSvHvypWnv6g@mail.gmail.com>

Great news ! Having the Kernel I think that it wouldn't be difficult at all
to start up the stuff in a very basic mode.

Kind Regards
Sergio Pedraja

2016-02-21 4:54 GMT+01:00 Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>:

> Hi all. Some of you may know me as the guy who set up the Unix Heritage
> Society at www.tuhs.org. We've been able to restore some of the old Unix
> systems to working order, including a PDP-11/20 version from 1972.
>
> I've just been given a scan of the assembly listing for PDP-7 Unix
> which includes the kernel and some user-mode programs. The scans are
> at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/McIlroy_v0/
> as the files 0*.pdf.
>
> I have this crazy idea that this system could be resurrected to working
> order on SimH and/or on a real PDP-7. But I'd a) need to learn the PDP-7
> architecture, b) write an assembler, c) OCR the scan (manually) and
> d) spend a lot of time debugging something that has no user manual and
> may not even work!
>
> I thought I'd ask here if there is any PDP-7 expertise that I could lean
> on if I decided to actually proceed.
>
> Many thanks in advance for pointers, suggestions, help.
>         Warren
>
> P.S I've already found http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html
> the PDP-7 Reference Manual f75ppdp7prelimumdec64.pdf and
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp7/`
>

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 04:57:52 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 23:57:52 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>

Well I haven't figured out exactly what the problem was but I'm
embarrassed to report it was indeed serial comms finger trouble. I
could have sworn that VT220 was fine and the cable wired correctly...
but to cover all bases I tried it with a USB serial port on the Mac
that sits in the lab.

It worked.

First time.

CONV011

Bugger me.

http://www.corestore.org/730cons.png

OK next is console tape... I have around 100 TU58 tapes. On close
examination the collection contained ONE console tape... for an 11/750
of course! So I'll be reaching for an emulator. Looking back at a long
thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
working correctly... watch this space!

Thanks for all the pointers.

Mike

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:09 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
> On 2/20/2016 7:03 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
>> wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
>> operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
>> must be valid...
>
>
> Make sure the switches are actually working.  Often, they're not.
>
> - J.
>
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 21 08:17:05 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:17:05 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E832A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> 
> I just double checked. 3 was open; 4 was closed. That's default 2400.

OK...

Just to confirm, this is the DIP switch near the middle of the board, not the 
one in one corner near the BERG plugs for the serial cables. The latter 
is involved with the handshake lines for the remote diagnostic port.

> Switch 8 was also closed; I have no idea of its function. All other
> switches were open.

No, the manuals are particularly bad on what these switches do. You can
deduce a bit from the printset, but without a listing of rhe console processor
firmare you can't be sure.

All closed is certainly wrong, the 8085 can't possibly run like that. 

Sounds like the 8085 is not doing the right things, I think you wlll
have to check if it's getting a clock, if the reset pin is not asserted,
and what it is doing to memory, etc.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 21 08:27:43 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:27:43 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>,
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8358@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Well I haven't figured out exactly what the problem was but I'm
> embarrassed to report it was indeed serial comms finger trouble. I

I have found that those little in-line RS232 testers with 7 or so bicolour
LEDs monitoring the important signals are very useful when working on
a machine with a serial terminal. If you get flickering on the TxD or RxD
LEDs then it is sending something.

> could have sworn that VT220 was fine and the cable wired correctly...
> but to cover all bases I tried it with a USB serial port on the Mac
> that sits in the lab.
> 
> It worked.
> 
> First time.
> 
> CONV011

There should be a pause between the 'CONV0' and the '11' IIRC

You should then get 2 lines of read errors for DD1 and DD0 in that
order. If you get a 'Device Error' then the TU58 controller is not 
responding at all, either it is not plugged in or it has serious problems.

> Bugger me.

Well, I'd rather not :-)

> examination the collection contained ONE console tape... for an 11/750

I have 2 genuine 11/730 console tapes. Not that it does me any good, they
both have dropouts and are shedding oxide. The output of the read amplifier
in the TU58 is 'interesting' shall we say.

I am currently rebulding a standalone TU58. My aim is to somehow find a good
tape (the hard part) and then to dump an 11/730 console tape image to it. That
means writing some kind of program to talk to the TU58 (another hard part).

-tony

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Feb 21 08:43:36 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:43:36 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C9CD18.2000107@compsys.to>

 >On Sunday, February 21st, 2016 at 23:57:22 +1300, Mike Ross wrote:

>Well I haven't figured out exactly what the problem was but I'm
>embarrassed to report it was indeed serial comms finger trouble. I
>could have sworn that VT220 was fine and the cable wired correctly...
>but to cover all bases I tried it with a USB serial port on the Mac
>that sits in the lab.
>
>It worked.
>
>First time.
>
>CONV011
>
>Bugger me.
>
>http://www.corestore.org/730cons.png
>
>OK next is console tape... I have around 100 TU58 tapes. On close
>examination the collection contained ONE console tape... for an 11/750
>of course! So I'll be reaching for an emulator. Looking back at a long
>thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
>timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
>working correctly... watch this space!
>
>Thanks for all the pointers.
>
>Mike
>
>>On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:09 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>>On 2/20/2016 7:03 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I might just try all switches *closed* on the basis that maybe it was
>>>wired wrong but... no doesn't make sense; the system would have been
>>>operational when decommissioned; the switch settings as I received it
>>>must be valid...
>>>      
>>>
>>Make sure the switches are actually working.  Often, they're not.
>>
>>- J.
>>
Check


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 09:27:47 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:27:47 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 February 2016 at 19:51, Greg Stark <stark at mit.edu> wrote:
> I work on Postgres and we have always claimed to support VAX machines
> but have the caveat "Code support exists for M32R and VAX, but these
> architectures are not known to have been tested recently." in our
> documentation. Recently I started a project to get a member in our
> build farm building Postgres for VAX to fill this gap. So far I've
> been using simh but I would be really interested in getting a decently
> fast VAX that doesn't take too much space (or power) to run builds on.
>
> I am currently in Europe (Dublin) but will be visiting NYC, Florida,
> and Montreal in the upcoming months so this is a good chance for me to
> pick one up without paying exorbitant shipping if there's any around.


I have a VAXstation 4000 going spare. It's currently at Red Hat's
offices in Farnborough. More details on request (if I can find them!)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 09:27:47 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:27:47 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 February 2016 at 19:51, Greg Stark <stark at mit.edu> wrote:
> I work on Postgres and we have always claimed to support VAX machines
> but have the caveat "Code support exists for M32R and VAX, but these
> architectures are not known to have been tested recently." in our
> documentation. Recently I started a project to get a member in our
> build farm building Postgres for VAX to fill this gap. So far I've
> been using simh but I would be really interested in getting a decently
> fast VAX that doesn't take too much space (or power) to run builds on.
>
> I am currently in Europe (Dublin) but will be visiting NYC, Florida,
> and Montreal in the upcoming months so this is a good chance for me to
> pick one up without paying exorbitant shipping if there's any around.


I have a VAXstation 4000 going spare. It's currently at Red Hat's
offices in Farnborough. More details on request (if I can find them!)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 09:29:14 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:29:14 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 February 2016 at 16:27, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a VAXstation 4000 going spare. It's currently at Red Hat's
> offices in Farnborough. More details on request (if I can find them!)


It's a 4000/60, I'm afraid it's untested, and Farnborough is just
outside London England.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From ben at bensinclair.com  Sun Feb 21 09:36:25 2016
From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:36:25 -0600
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>

I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
craziness?

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:29 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 February 2016 at 16:27, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a VAXstation 4000 going spare. It's currently at Red Hat's
>> offices in Farnborough. More details on request (if I can find them!)
>
>
> It's a 4000/60, I'm afraid it's untested, and Farnborough is just
> outside London England.
>
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)



-- 
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com

From phil at ultimate.com  Sun Feb 21 10:14:46 2016
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:14:46 -0500
Subject: Any PDP-7 Expertise?
In-Reply-To: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <201602211614.u1LGEkap060671@ultimate.com>

No personal experience, but SIMH supports the PDP-7,
and there is a "macro7" cross-assembler at:
https://github.com/simh/simtools/tree/master/crossassemblers/macro7

Tho I did debug hand entered versions of DDT and MACRO for the PDP-1,
so I've experienced the particular kind of pain involved in this sort
of project...  I even adapted the SIMH macro1 cross-assembler to be a
more faithful emulation of PDP-1 MACRO.
See http://www.ultimate.com/phil/xy/

Phil

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Sun Feb 21 10:23:28 2016
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:23:28 +0000
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C9E480.4050206@wickensonline.co.uk>

VAXstation 4000's such as the 60 and 90 are nice compact last generation 
desktop VAX with modest power requirements, small form factor, good 
compatibility and relatively good performance. The 60 runs at around 12 
VUPS and the 90 at 40 VUPs IIRC.

However, I would have thought that a modern Core i7 system running SIMH 
would be getting close to a VAXstation 4000/60, and there is always VAX 
MP if you want to go down the multiprocessor route (you can run a 7 core 
VAX system on a Core i7 for example). For compilation it should be 
relatively easy to create a build script that makes use of multiple 
processors (does the DEC CMS build tool cater for this?)

Kind regards, Mark.

On 21/02/16 15:36, Ben Sinclair wrote:
> I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> craziness?
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:29 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21 February 2016 at 16:27, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have a VAXstation 4000 going spare. It's currently at Red Hat's
>>> offices in Farnborough. More details on request (if I can find them!)
>>
>> It's a 4000/60, I'm afraid it's untested, and Farnborough is just
>> outside London England.
>>
>> --
>> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
>> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
>> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
>> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
>
>


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Feb 21 10:24:03 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 17:24:03 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ben Sinclair wrote:

> I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> craziness?
> 

..that are the smallest and fastest VAXen so it is not so unlikely
that the prices are crazy...

Why you don't use an simulator (E11, simh) for the job?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Feb 21 10:29:36 2016
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 17:29:36 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C9E5F0.5010107@e-bbes.com>

On 2016-02-21 16:36, Ben Sinclair wrote:
> I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> craziness?

Some people noticed, that there is still software and applications 
running on them, and few years ago, people just started to buy top of 
the line (/90+) to have spares.
I think, it cooled down, but the prices are still up.




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 21 10:37:54 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:37:54 +0000
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E839B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> It's a 4000/60, I'm afraid it's untested, and Farnborough is just
> outside London England.

Be careful. There are several Farnboroughs in England, and the one
'just outside London' is almost certainly not the one you mean. The
'just outside London' one for me is between Bromley and Green
Street Green.

I assume you mean the one in Hampshire, but...

-tony

From macro at linux-mips.org  Sun Feb 21 10:43:05 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:43:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56C9E5F0.5010107@e-bbes.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C9E5F0.5010107@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602211633520.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016, emanuel stiebler wrote:

> > I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> > again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> > particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> > craziness?
> 
> Some people noticed, that there is still software and applications running on
> them, and few years ago, people just started to buy top of the line (/90+) to
> have spares.

 Also note that Compaq continued selling brand new 4000/96 boxes well into 
2000s (was it until 2004?).  With their own front nameplate even I believe 
rather than the original DEC one.  I'm sure this reflected the demand and 
contributed to current prices.

  Maciej

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 10:57:59 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 08:57:59 -0800
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <DBEA76EC-D3F3-47CE-A976-2C9823916B1B@gmail.com>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
 <DBEA76EC-D3F3-47CE-A976-2C9823916B1B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKEb2kp9gAbcVvRgQRLAjsd8+Ymkv7F6_W=BKdWM33JpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 12:46 AM, Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Like most others, the favorite is the one I use! So we are all biased by definition, and I have an HP 1670G. In general I?d go straight to Tek for vintage scopes and HP for vintage LAs, and be very somewhat leery about doing the opposite...  I chose it because it is small and portable, has a boatload of channels, the pattern generator, LCD color screen, integrated keyboard, and mine had the 2M deep memory option (important). And I collect HP instruments, so it fits right in. Rarer, more recent and expensive (but still very affordable) than the dirt cheap CRT based 16xx series - has a hard disk and the memory humph. I don?t use it often, but when I do it?s critical. It saved me on two projects so far, developing my HP 7970 tape HP?IB driver and repairing my Documation card reader (all documented on my YouTube videos if you want to get a feel for it). The one downside is the lack of a touchscreen, you need a mouse and a lot of clicking around. The 15000/16000 series is better for that but a much larger unit, it would be a step up though. If you want to save $ go in the other direction for the B&W 16xx series. At their current price points, any of them is an absolute steal compared to what they can do for you, and they are all perfectly usable. Good time to buy one.
> Marc

If I was looking at traditional HP / Agilent / Tektronix logic
analyzers and wanted a small self-contained portable systems an HP /
Agilent 1670G with Option 2 (2M sample depth) would be the most
interesting to me. Of the 1660/1670 self-contained portable series the
1670G is the most recent, has the highest speed and sample depth
capabilities, and a nice color LCD display.

The 1660A Mono CRT. 4K sample depth. Floppy only. No LAN.
The 1660C Mono CRT. 4K sample depth. Hard drive. LAN optional.
The 1660E Color LCD. 4K sample depth. Hard drive. LAN.

The 1670A Mono CRT. 64K (optional 500K) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN.
The 1670D Mono CRT. 64K (optional 1M) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN.
The 1670E Color LCD. 1M sample depth. Hard drive. LAN.
The 1670G Color LCD. 64K (optional 256K or 2M) sample depth. Hard drive. LAN.

There are also built-in scope and pattern generator options available
on some of those.

Unfortunately the 1670G series usually seem to come at a price premium
compared to other choices, at least on eBay. The asking prices I
normally see are at least $200 and usually significantly more, and
often without Option 2 and/or the lower channel count 1671/1672/1673G
versions. I haven't seen one go by cheap enough to grab one for
myself. For the same price you could get a much more capable and
expandable 16700B system, but then it is larger and no longer
self-contained and easily portable.

The best deal I see today on eBay for 1660/1670 series is a 1670D
Option 030 for $150 + $30 shipping. (
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321867912004 )

-Glen

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Feb 21 14:12:41 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 15:12:41 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>

 >Holm Tiffe wrote:

>>Ben Sinclair wrote:
>
>>I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
>>again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
>>particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
>>craziness?
>>
>..that are the smallest and fastest VAXen so it is not so unlikely
>that the prices are crazy...
>
>Why you don't use an simulator (E11, simh) for the job?
>
That sounds like a good idea to use SimH for the VAXstation.  However,
I suspect that E11 (Ersatz-11) would be a bit difficult to use to emulate a
VAXstation since E11 is exclusively for the PDP-11.

As for the individual who mentioned the speed of an emulator, I have used
both SimH and Ersatz-11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III.  SimH probably runs
at about the speed of a PDP-11/93, probably even faster.  However, Ersatz-11
runs 15 times as fast for CPU speed and about 100 times as fast for hard 
disk I/O.
On a 2.83 GHz Q9550, Ersatz-11 ran about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93
for the CPU and hard disk I/O was probably about 200 times as fast. As just
one example, on a real DEC PDP-11/93 with ESDI hard drives, it took about
4 minutes to copy about 32 MB from one physical hard drive to a different
physical hard drive.  On the Q9550, it took less than 1 second.  I was using
RT-11 in all cases.  I would assume that an I7 CPU would be somewhat faster,
but maybe someone else has some benchmarks.

Jerome Fine

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Feb 21 14:26:05 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 21:26:05 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> >Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> >>Ben Sinclair wrote:
> >
> >>I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> >>again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> >>particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> >>craziness?
> >>
> >..that are the smallest and fastest VAXen so it is not so unlikely
> >that the prices are crazy...
> >
> >Why you don't use an simulator (E11, simh) for the job?
> >
> That sounds like a good idea to use SimH for the VAXstation.  However,
> I suspect that E11 (Ersatz-11) would be a bit difficult to use to emulate a
> VAXstation since E11 is exclusively for the PDP-11.
> 
> As for the individual who mentioned the speed of an emulator, I have used
> both SimH and Ersatz-11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III.  SimH probably runs
> at about the speed of a PDP-11/93, probably even faster.  However, Ersatz-11
> runs 15 times as fast for CPU speed and about 100 times as fast for hard 
> disk I/O.
> On a 2.83 GHz Q9550, Ersatz-11 ran about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93
> for the CPU and hard disk I/O was probably about 200 times as fast. As just
> one example, on a real DEC PDP-11/93 with ESDI hard drives, it took about
> 4 minutes to copy about 32 MB from one physical hard drive to a different
> physical hard drive.  On the Q9550, it took less than 1 second.  I was using
> RT-11 in all cases.  I would assume that an I7 CPU would be somewhat faster,
> but maybe someone else has some benchmarks.
> 
> Jerome Fine

Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers since
hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From rich.cini at verizon.net  Sun Feb 21 15:01:59 2016
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:01:59 -0500
Subject: H11 Success with XXDP
Message-ID: <715397D1-609D-4818-88F8-4947B8CED3B0@verizon.net>

All ?

I had some time today to work on the second serial port for the H11 I received two weeks ago. I built the second cable for use with the TU58 emulator so I could load tapes into the machine. I loaded up the bootstrap using PDP11GUI, mounted the XXDPD2D tape and hit ?001000G? and it worked! Yea!

Next up, locating other bootable TU58 tapes and seeing if those work.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb 21 16:33:14 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:33:14 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 21, 2016, at 02:57 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Looking back at a long
> thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
> timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
> working correctly... watch this space!

As a recap, I made a fork of tu58em which adds -x/--vax flags to work around a timing issue that I encountered when using it with my VAX-11/730:

https://github.com/NF6X/tu58em/tree/nf6x

I was running tu58em on a Mac. I don't know if the same timing issue is present when running tu58em on other platforms. If you want to try my modified fork, make sure you pull code from the nf6x branch instead of the master branch; the master branch contains the unmodified tu58em code that I patched.

I also put up the console tape images I use:

https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57

Next time I resume playing with my 11/730, I'll probably work on getting tu58em working with it when running on a Raspberry Pi, so I won't need to have my VAX tethered to a laptop.

In the more distant future, I also plan to make a dedicated TU58 emulator that clicks into place in one of the tape drive slots and plugs into the original internal cables. It'll be unobtrusive, and the UI will be the same as on an original drive (simply swap an SD card instead of swapping a tape). I like originality, but my experience so far has led me to utterly distrust TU58 tape cartridges. I might even design it to connect inline between the VAX and the real TU58 drive, such that when either SD card slot is empty, accesses to that unit will be forwarded to the corresponding real TU58 drive unit.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cctalk at snarc.net  Sun Feb 21 16:39:54 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 17:39:54 -0500
Subject: VCF East ** AND WEST ** ticketing is online
Message-ID: <56CA3CBA.9090604@snarc.net>

Tickets for VCF East and VCF West are available online.

West:
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west-xi/vcf-west-tickets/

East:
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/tickets/

IMPORTANT:
- Exhibitors don't need tickets for Saturday/Sunday (exhibit 
registration will open soon)
- East only: Friday teachers don't need tickets for that day
- Bring your kids! Free admission for 17 and younger

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 16:41:19 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:41:19 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 02:57 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Looking back at a long
>> thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
>> timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
>> working correctly... watch this space!
>
> As a recap, I made a fork of tu58em which adds -x/--vax flags to work around a timing issue that I encountered when using it with my VAX-11/730:
>
> https://github.com/NF6X/tu58em/tree/nf6x
>
> I was running tu58em on a Mac. I don't know if the same timing issue is present when running tu58em on other platforms. If you want to try my modified fork, make sure you pull code from the nf6x branch instead of the master branch; the master branch contains the unmodified tu58em code that I patched.
>
> I also put up the console tape images I use:
>
> https://github.com/NF6X/VAX-11-730-Console-v57
>
> Next time I resume playing with my 11/730, I'll probably work on getting tu58em working with it when running on a Raspberry Pi, so I won't need to have my VAX tethered to a laptop.
>
> In the more distant future, I also plan to make a dedicated TU58 emulator that clicks into place in one of the tape drive slots and plugs into the original internal cables. It'll be unobtrusive, and the UI will be the same as on an original drive (simply swap an SD card instead of swapping a tape). I like originality, but my experience so far has led me to utterly distrust TU58 tape cartridges. I might even design it to connect inline between the VAX and the real TU58 drive, such that when either SD card slot is empty, accesses to that unit will be forwarded to the corresponding real TU58 drive unit.

Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
help if I could have confirmed working setup there.

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb 21 16:59:56 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:59:56 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 21, 2016, at 14:41 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
> pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
> help if I could have confirmed working setup there.

I'll need to dig inside my machine to verify the wiring; I'll try to remember to do that sometime today. I'm pretty sure that it's a simple 3-wire connection at 38400 baud.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From applecorey at optonline.net  Sun Feb 21 05:19:35 2016
From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 06:19:35 -0500
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <DBEA76EC-D3F3-47CE-A976-2C9823916B1B@gmail.com>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
 <DBEA76EC-D3F3-47CE-A976-2C9823916B1B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <820DA3C8-5175-4405-BF04-F1317E9BD4AE@optonline.net>

There is another option to all this.  You could use a modern 16 or 24 channel logic analyzer.  I have in my "bag" a Saleae logic16.  They have a new version called the pro that even does some scope like signal analysis.  

Anyway, it was invaluable working on my Scelbi when troubleshooting because it hooks right up to my MacBook and allows me to store entire runs of the system with gigabytes of capture.  I was tracking down a wonky step process where the CPU seemed to auto advance when jamming instructions in if I waited more than a few seconds between steps.   Having a long running capture with something quick to setup really helps.   It's also really cool to watch the entire Sol-20 boot up process into Solos.  

The other really useful thing about the Saleae logic stuff is size.  It has come in useful when I have to go somewhere other than my workbench to fix something because it's very portable.   It is very impractical for me to bring more than some hand tools, a hand held DSO, my Saleae, a hakko desoldering gun and a portable temp controlled soldering iron to some of the places I have had to do repairs on vintage tech. 

Cheers,
Corey  

corey cohen
u??o? ???o?

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 3:46 AM, Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Like most others, the favorite is the one I use! So we are all biased by definition, and I have an HP 1670G. In general I?d go straight to Tek for vintage scopes and HP for vintage LAs, and be very somewhat leery about doing the opposite...  I chose it because it is small and portable, has a boatload of channels, the pattern generator, LCD color screen, integrated keyboard, and mine had the 2M deep memory option (important). And I collect HP instruments, so it fits right in. Rarer, more recent and expensive (but still very affordable) than the dirt cheap CRT based 16xx series - has a hard disk and the memory humph. I don?t use it often, but when I do it?s critical. It saved me on two projects so far, developing my HP 7970 tape HP?IB driver and repairing my Documation card reader (all documented on my YouTube videos if you want to get a feel for it). The one downside is the lack of a touchscreen, you need a mouse and a lot of clicking around. The 15000/16000 series is better for that but a much larger unit, it would be a step up though. If you want to save $ go in the other direction for the B&W 16xx series. At their current price points, any of them is an absolute steal compared to what they can do for you, and they are all perfectly usable. Good time to buy one.
> Marc
> 
> From:  cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr>
> Reply-To:  GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr>, "cctech at classiccmp.org" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Date:  Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM
> To:  "cctech at classiccmp.org" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject:  Logic Analyser Polling ....
> 
> Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and  .... How often you use it  ?
> 
> 

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 21 08:08:06 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:08:06 +0000
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E830D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Which is your favourite ?  Why you like it and would recommend it ? and 
> .... How often you use it  ?

Does the HP LogicDart count? (it is a 3 channel logic analyser)

If so, then it's my favourite, its so convenient (not much more work than a simple
logic probe, but it tells me so much more), it is small enough to use on just 
about any machine (I don;'t worry about putting it on top of a PCB or whatever.
I use it just about every time I repair a classic computer.

If not then the HP1630. OK, it's old and there are better specced instruments
available, but this was the last HP to have schematics available, and it does
all I need for repairing classic computers. 

-tony

From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Sun Feb 21 09:49:15 2016
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:49:15 -0800
Subject: Schematic for PA68-F (High speed paper taper reader/punch for
 PDP-8)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A7A5BAB124FC46CC8DD5966BA133977A@Vincew7>

From: Marc Howard: Saturday, February 20, 2016 5:29 PM
> I'm looking for the schematic for a PA68-F.  It's a two high collection of
> single width M series modules that implements the paper tape high speed
> reader/punch control for positive bus machines.

> Does anyone out there know where I can download this document?

I believe what you are looking for begins on page 53/125 of this  document:
bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/typeset8/DEC-08-HMMPA-A_D_typeset8_PosLogicEngrDrws_Apr73.pdf

    Vince 


From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sun Feb 21 10:42:22 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:42:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>

Greg,

I applaud your goal.  I'm trying to resurrect my 3100 so I can try and keep
this architecture alive on OpenBSD.


Thanks,
Bryan

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Greg Stark <stark at mit.edu> wrote:

> I work on Postgres and we have always claimed to support VAX machines
> but have the caveat "Code support exists for M32R and VAX, but these
> architectures are not known to have been tested recently." in our
> documentation. Recently I started a project to get a member in our
> build farm building Postgres for VAX to fill this gap. So far I've
> been using simh but I would be really interested in getting a decently
> fast VAX that doesn't take too much space (or power) to run builds on.
>
> I am currently in Europe (Dublin) but will be visiting NYC, Florida,
> and Montreal in the upcoming months so this is a good chance for me to
> pick one up without paying exorbitant shipping if there's any around.
>
> --
> greg
>

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sun Feb 21 10:42:22 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan C. Everly)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:42:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>

Greg,

I applaud your goal.  I'm trying to resurrect my 3100 so I can try and keep
this architecture alive on OpenBSD.


Thanks,
Bryan

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Greg Stark <stark at mit.edu> wrote:

> I work on Postgres and we have always claimed to support VAX machines
> but have the caveat "Code support exists for M32R and VAX, but these
> architectures are not known to have been tested recently." in our
> documentation. Recently I started a project to get a member in our
> build farm building Postgres for VAX to fill this gap. So far I've
> been using simh but I would be really interested in getting a decently
> fast VAX that doesn't take too much space (or power) to run builds on.
>
> I am currently in Europe (Dublin) but will be visiting NYC, Florida,
> and Montreal in the upcoming months so this is a good chance for me to
> pick one up without paying exorbitant shipping if there's any around.
>
> --
> greg
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb 21 12:13:51 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:13:51 -0800
Subject: Internal HP docs on 9845 sys?
In-Reply-To: <56C989D2.3070101@tiscali.it>
References: <56C989D2.3070101@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8rO6-Egkc_FOXL+hBz1vZdUR5u27P+nOeYfmO=_BVkQw@mail.gmail.com>

* Just out of curiosity, what a big company like HP does with its
"historical" documents?

Easily. >99% of the destroy all documentation, specially when it was
internal. Your best bet, and mine has been for documents people took home
with them, and luckily not thrown out during a move, or the widow or
surviving kids not tossing it all out.
Sometimes it is because they perceive it as propriety (hide mistakes), or
has no value. This happed at Tektronix, for one instrument line they 'saved
money' by getting rid of the filing cabinets.

Here's what I do. Find out where the <fill in the blank> was designed. Put
ads on Craigslist, local papers etc. I've even run ads on a couple local
radio stations.  Look for local clubs, associations etc. One of the
buildings I worked at when at Burroughs in the 70's still holds gathering
once a month.

Any retirement groups ? Physical or on-line. Some have newsletters. Has
worked pretty well for me.

West coast ? put an ad in a Phoenix/Palm Springs paper. East coast ?
Florida.

-pete



On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:56 AM, F.Ulivi <fulivi at tiscali.it> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been working for the last few months on implementing the MAME
> emulator of HP 9845B system.
> In case you're interested, have a look at MAME development page at
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame.
> My emulator mostly works, the main missing thing now is the graphic
> mode and the ability to load optional ROMs.
> Anyway, I'm posting here because I'd like to ask you a few questions on
> HP docs.
> The last thing I worked on for this emulator is the "TACO" tape driver.
> I reverse engineered it
> entirely from sw & the (scarce) docs available enough that it works.
> So here a few questions for you:
> * Back in the days, what was the HP approach to document
> internally-developped chips for its own
>   sw developers? I mean, was there a kind of programmers' guide for TACO
> chip? Is there any hope
>   someone scanned it and made it available somewhere? I know that for
> hybrid processors HP made
>   an internal manual titled something like "how they do dat" manual...
> * Just out of curiosity, what a big company like HP does with its
> "historical" documents? Do they
>   have an archive where they keep documents & sw from, say, the 70s? Or
> do they throw everything away
>   when there is some kind of company "shake-up" such as big layoff
> phases, closing of a site, merging
>   and splitting of divisions?
>
> Thank you.
>
> -- F.Ulivi
>
>

From cramcram at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 12:28:48 2016
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:28:48 -0800
Subject: Schematic for PA68-F (High speed paper taper reader/punch for
 PDP-8)
In-Reply-To: <A7A5BAB124FC46CC8DD5966BA133977A@Vincew7>
References: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A7A5BAB124FC46CC8DD5966BA133977A@Vincew7>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8QfSi-RU3KVt9ZrS6f_XNf0qb8-jVAx0vnknr-EA2-Eqg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks!  I didn't know the drawings were part of the Typeset-8
documentation.  Now to find out if any modules are missing/misplaced...

Marc

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <v.slyngstad at frontier.com
> wrote:

> From: Marc Howard: Saturday, February 20, 2016 5:29 PM
>
>> I'm looking for the schematic for a PA68-F.  It's a two high collection of
>> single width M series modules that implements the paper tape high speed
>> reader/punch control for positive bus machines.
>>
>
> Does anyone out there know where I can download this document?
>>
>
> I believe what you are looking for begins on page 53/125 of this  document:
>
> bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/typeset8/DEC-08-HMMPA-A_D_typeset8_PosLogicEngrDrws_Apr73.pdf
>
>    Vince
>

From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Feb 21 15:56:43 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:56:43 -0800
Subject: Schematic for PA68-F (High speed paper taper reader/punch for
 PDP-8)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8QfSi-RU3KVt9ZrS6f_XNf0qb8-jVAx0vnknr-EA2-Eqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A7A5BAB124FC46CC8DD5966BA133977A@Vincew7>
 <CAC20j8QfSi-RU3KVt9ZrS6f_XNf0qb8-jVAx0vnknr-EA2-Eqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CA329B.6060905@jwsss.com>



On 2/21/2016 10:28 AM, Marc Howard wrote:
> Thanks!  I didn't know the drawings were part of the Typeset-8
> documentation.  Now to find out if any modules are missing/misplaced...
>
> Marc
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <v.slyngstad at frontier.com
>> wrote:
>> From: Marc Howard: Saturday, February 20, 2016 5:29 PM
>>
>>> I'm looking for the schematic for a PA68-F.  It's a two high collection of
>>> single width M series modules that implements the paper tape high speed
>>> reader/punch control for positive bus machines.
>>>
>>
Did someone end up with the Dec paper tape reader/punch recently sold on 
Ebay?

thanks
Jim

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 17:35:42 2016
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 15:35:42 -0800
Subject: Looking to buy a Tektronix 405x computer.
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWBTDtWdj8CPScdJVMcwkOkOzaHhNGBL0Pb4pa8Ck2hZmg@mail.gmail.com>

I've been looking for one of these for ages- I have a lead on a TeK storage
tube terminal and will make a trip for it as soon as I can, but I'd love to
find one of the computers.

I'll pay for one in any condition and shipping from anywhere I can find
one. Does anyone have a lead? Please let me know...

Thanks,

- Ian


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Feb 21 17:37:55 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:37:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>

 >Holm Tiffe wrote:

>>Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>
>>>Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Ben Sinclair wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
>>>>again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
>>>>particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
>>>>craziness?
>>>>
>>>..that are the smallest and fastest VAXen so it is not so unlikely
>>>that the prices are crazy...
>>>
>>>Why you don't use an simulator (E11, simh) for the job?
>>>
>>That sounds like a good idea to use SimH for the VAXstation.  However,
>>I suspect that E11 (Ersatz-11) would be a bit difficult to use to emulate a
>>VAXstation since E11 is exclusively for the PDP-11.
>>
>>As for the individual who mentioned the speed of an emulator, I have used
>>both SimH and Ersatz-11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III.  SimH probably runs
>>at about the speed of a PDP-11/93, probably even faster.  However, Ersatz-11
>>runs 15 times as fast for CPU speed and about 100 times as fast for hard 
>>disk I/O.
>>On a 2.83 GHz Q9550, Ersatz-11 ran about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93
>>for the CPU and hard disk I/O was probably about 200 times as fast. As just
>>one example, on a real DEC PDP-11/93 with ESDI hard drives, it took about
>>4 minutes to copy about 32 MB from one physical hard drive to a different
>>physical hard drive.  On the Q9550, it took less than 1 second.  I was using
>>RT-11 in all cases.  I would assume that an I7 CPU would be somewhat faster,
>>but maybe someone else has some benchmarks.
>>
>Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers since
>hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.
>
But I suspect that there might be a few individuals who are also 
interested in
emulating the PDP-11, so those "great numbers" might be helpful to them.

The other point to emphasize is that SimH does a great job of emulation,
but is not the fastest application.  If someone was interested in producing
code which executes in the manner in which Ersatz-11 does it for the
PDP-11, but doing so for a VAX emulation, the results might be spectacular.

Jerome Fine

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 18:14:44 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:14:44 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMQ50mBJAWmB7rLWtQeGzL8BxWtvbzvcrtZ4_Aoxc2B2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 14:41 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
>> pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
>> help if I could have confirmed working setup there.
>
> I'll need to dig inside my machine to verify the wiring; I'll try to remember to do that sometime today. I'm pretty sure that it's a simple 3-wire connection at 38400 baud.

That's my understanding too - complicated by the fact that are two
Tx/Rx pairs for the two drives IIRC...

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 21 18:35:50 2016
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:35:50 -0800
Subject: Looking to buy a Tektronix 405x computer.
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWBTDtWdj8CPScdJVMcwkOkOzaHhNGBL0Pb4pa8Ck2hZmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBTDtWdj8CPScdJVMcwkOkOzaHhNGBL0Pb4pa8Ck2hZmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CA57E6.4040502@bitsavers.org>

I have an NOS 4054 in Silicon Valley.
It is BIG and HEAVY


On 2/21/16 3:35 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
> I've been looking for one of these for ages- I have a lead on a TeK storage
> tube terminal and will make a trip for it as soon as I can, but I'd love to
> find one of the computers.
>
> I'll pay for one in any condition and shipping from anywhere I can find
> one. Does anyone have a lead? Please let me know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Ian
>
>



From isking at uw.edu  Sun Feb 21 18:50:56 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:50:56 -0800
Subject: Any PDP-7 Expertise?
In-Reply-To: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20160221035408.GA8142@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ000AF3nO=nhiXczC-_RhDyqFo0ufPBLav6nmyLFq3rKuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> Hi all. Some of you may know me as the guy who set up the Unix Heritage
> Society at www.tuhs.org. We've been able to restore some of the old Unix
> systems to working order, including a PDP-11/20 version from 1972.
>
> I've just been given a scan of the assembly listing for PDP-7 Unix
> which includes the kernel and some user-mode programs. The scans are
> at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/McIlroy_v0/
> as the files 0*.pdf.
>
> I have this crazy idea that this system could be resurrected to working
> order on SimH and/or on a real PDP-7. But I'd a) need to learn the PDP-7
> architecture, b) write an assembler, c) OCR the scan (manually) and
> d) spend a lot of time debugging something that has no user manual and
> may not even work!
>
> I thought I'd ask here if there is any PDP-7 expertise that I could lean
> on if I decided to actually proceed.
>
> Many thanks in advance for pointers, suggestions, help.
>         Warren
>
> P.S I've already found http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html
> the PDP-7 Reference Manual f75ppdp7prelimumdec64.pdf and
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp7/`
>

I did some work with the running PDP-7 at LCM, and Warren let me know this
data was available.  Unfortunately I have some other commitments right now,
but I'll get there... I'm very excited about this.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Feb 21 19:21:27 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:21:27 -0600
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>

It was written...
>Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers 
>since hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.

Actually, I found those numbers Jerome provided quite interesting. It wasn't
me that asked about the speed of an emulator... but I'm sure the person
asking got some datapoints. Thanks Jerome!

I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it up once when I
got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since (probably 10 years). I'm
not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play around
with?

J





From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 19:57:52 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 20:57:52 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufL-d8kcxSS6KxD57xFGtEvOg6EpSDYxmNO9VKSfQtT+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 8:21 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It was written...
> >Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers
> >since hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.
>
> Actually, I found those numbers Jerome provided quite interesting. It
> wasn't
> me that asked about the speed of an emulator... but I'm sure the person
> asking got some datapoints. Thanks Jerome!
>
> I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it up once when I
> got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since (probably 10 years).
> I'm
> not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play
> around
> with?
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>

There are plenty of Alphas that run VMS that are very fast/cheap.
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun Feb 21 20:26:47 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:26:47 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMQ50mBJAWmB7rLWtQeGzL8BxWtvbzvcrtZ4_Aoxc2B2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbMQ50mBJAWmB7rLWtQeGzL8BxWtvbzvcrtZ4_Aoxc2B2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAA465FC-B9D5-4E7E-990C-0301DD8E7A43@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 21, 2016, at 16:14, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 14:41 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
>>> pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
>>> help if I could have confirmed working setup there.
>> 
>> I'll need to dig inside my machine to verify the wiring; I'll try to remember to do that sometime today. I'm pretty sure that it's a simple 3-wire connection at 38400 baud.
> 
> That's my understanding too - complicated by the fact that are two
> Tx/Rx pairs for the two drives IIRC...

I don't think that is the case. There is a single 3-wire UART interface between the console and the TU58 drive controller board. The single drive controller board runs both of the TU58-XA tape mechanisms.



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 21 22:51:52 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 22:51:52 -0600
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>

On 02/21/2016 07:21 PM, Jay West wrote:
> I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it 
> up once when I got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf 
> ever since (probably 10 years). I'm not familiar with 
> those type of machines, is that fast enough to play around 
> with? J 
Well, VAXes are fairly slow compared to a recent x86 
machine.  My MicroVAX-II is about 1000 times slower than my 
desktop machine.  I migrated a few programs from the VAX to 
my desktop Linux machine, so I have some rough comparisons.  
But, your 3100 might be slower than a 100 MHz Pentium 
Classic, just to give you a range.

You would not want to go web browsing on a MicroVAX, even 
though the 3100 is quite a bit faster than my MicroVAX-II.  
Moving files around on the net, email and such things might 
not be so obviously slow.  I wouldn't want to do any real 
computing on and VAX system, I'm just spoiled by what a 
typical machine can do now.

Jon

From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb 21 23:24:52 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 22:24:52 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <1229350600928094412@unknownmsgid>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>
 <1229350600928094412@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212223100.576@discord.bogons>

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016, Bryan Everly wrote:

> I was planning on installing OpenBSD on this box from a floppy image
> however I can just swap the whole board and do a net boot of the
> installer.

I can see why you want one but I wonder what motivated Digital to decide
whether to install a floppy or not.  I am quite certain that they had
no motive to help us install OpenBSD.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch  Sun Feb 21 23:25:14 2016
From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:25:14 +0100
Subject: Looking to buy a Tektronix 405x computer.
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWBTDtWdj8CPScdJVMcwkOkOzaHhNGBL0Pb4pa8Ck2hZmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBTDtWdj8CPScdJVMcwkOkOzaHhNGBL0Pb4pa8Ck2hZmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CA9BBA.4020606@bluewin.ch>

On 22.02.2016 00:35, Ian Finder wrote:
> I've been looking for one of these for ages- I have a lead on a TeK storage
> tube terminal and will make a trip for it as soon as I can, but I'd love to
> find one of the computers.
>
> I'll pay for one in any condition and shipping from anywhere I can find
> one. Does anyone have a lead? Please let me know...
>


I have 2 4052, but they are in Europe...
Also tons of spares, including a NOS CRT for them.

Too bad both of them only have the tape cartridge, and cartidges from Tek did not age well...



Jos



From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb 21 23:58:29 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 22:58:29 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/21/2016 07:21 PM, Jay West wrote:
...
>> I'm not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play 
>> around with? J 
...
> You would not want to go web browsing on a MicroVAX, even though the 3100 is 
> quite a bit faster than my MicroVAX-II.  Moving files around on the net, 
> email and such things might not be so obviously slow.  I wouldn't want to do 
> any real computing on and VAX system, I'm just spoiled by what a typical 
> machine can do now.

I used to do web browsing on a VAXstation 3100 and I stopped because 
whatever version of the browser I could use with VMS 5.5-1 crashed when 
presented with a monochrome monitor.  (That is totally wierd).

That being said, there is no doubt that browser became resource hogs many 
years ago, I always ran old junk that I pulled out of the scrap pile at 
work and I retired my 75MHz pentium running Linux because the web browser 
became too slow.  I also stopped web browsing om my Alphaserver 4100
because it was a total pig.

What is real computing?  Email, writing documents, balancing your cheque
book, compiling small applications do not require 2GHz CPUs and 32G of
memory.  Computer games require all you can give them but that is not
computing.  Your app is a pig?  Write it in something other than Java
or python.

It seems that compiling some big applications (like firefox or open 
office) is pure misery no matter how much cpu, memory, and disk may be 
available - This becomes very true on VMS (my favourite OS is a pig).

My buddy Ross measures speed by how long it take to build world on FreeBSD
but I haven't built the world on FreeBSD in over five years so I don't
care how long it takes.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 01:09:40 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 02:09:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <201602220709.CAA24092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Computer games require all you can give them [...]

Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering
games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class
(and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack,
etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven,
Klondike...the list is long.

> but that is not computing.

It's not?  Someone once built a Turing machine in Minecraft....

> Your app is a pig?  Write it in something other than Java or python.

Depressingly close to accurate in far too many cases. :-/

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 01:09:51 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 02:09:51 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 02:57 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Looking back at a long
>> thread on vintage-computers last year it appears that tu58em had
>> timing issues and was unusable on 11/730 but is now patched and
>> working correctly... watch this space!
>
> As a recap, I made a fork of tu58em which adds -x/--vax flags to work around a timing issue that I encountered when using it with my VAX-11/730:
>
> https://github.com/NF6X/tu58em/tree/nf6x
>
> I was running tu58em on a Mac. I don't know if the same timing issue is present when running tu58em on other platforms. If you want to try my modified fork, make sure you pull code from the nf6x branch instead of the master branch; the master branch contains the unmodified tu58em code that I patched.

Mark,

Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
Xcode or any other dev environment...

Thanks

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 02:03:17 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:03:17 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>

PDP-11/20  vd  one that just says  pdp 11  what are the  date differences?? 
OEM?  was one  version  for customer and  one  for OEM?
THANKS IN ADVANCE
 
Ed#  
 
 

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 02:11:53 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:11:53 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8358@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8358@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMGd+V0E9kQ3V8xhL2yc0Q9as7wJPJEhRsYXShK2t=KEw@mail.gmail.com>

(replies inline)

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:27 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Well I haven't figured out exactly what the problem was but I'm
>> embarrassed to report it was indeed serial comms finger trouble. I
>
> I have found that those little in-line RS232 testers with 7 or so bicolour
> LEDs monitoring the important signals are very useful when working on
> a machine with a serial terminal. If you get flickering on the TxD or RxD
> LEDs then it is sending something.

Yes and I usually use such; I have an assortment of things from inline
testers to breakout boxes to Tektronic analysers. But this hookup was
so simple and obvious nothing could go wrong.... (!)

>> could have sworn that VT220 was fine and the cable wired correctly...
>> but to cover all bases I tried it with a USB serial port on the Mac
>> that sits in the lab.
>>
>> It worked.
>>
>> First time.
>>
>> CONV011
>
> There should be a pause between the 'CONV0' and the '11' IIRC

Indeed that's how it comes up. Very short pause since I have most of
the memory out as part of potential gotcha elimination - and the last
two tests are memory tests IIRC; they take a little longer.

> You should then get 2 lines of read errors for DD1 and DD0 in that
> order. If you get a 'Device Error' then the TU58 controller is not
> responding at all, either it is not plugged in or it has serious problems.

Yep that was shown in the link I gave. In text it's:

CONV011
?27  READ ERROR DD1
?27  READ ERROR DD0
ROM>^C

?27  READ ERROR DD1
?27  READ ERROR DD0
ROM>

> I have 2 genuine 11/730 console tapes. Not that it does me any good, they
> both have dropouts and are shedding oxide. The output of the read amplifier
> in the TU58 is 'interesting' shall we say.
>
> I am currently rebulding a standalone TU58. My aim is to somehow find a good
> tape (the hard part) and then to dump an 11/730 console tape image to it. That
> means writing some kind of program to talk to the TU58 (another hard part).

I did wonder how one might go about writing a tape image to a physical
tape... I'm happy to get the thing loaded via the emulator for now -
but I'd like to get real working tapes eventually.

If it helps your 'hard part' I have at least a couple of brand new
TU58 tapes - still sealed in plastic wrap...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 02:12:10 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:12:10 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>

The PDP-11/20 was the first PDP-11. I believe the number was added when 
the other models came out, to discern them.

/P

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:03:17AM -0500, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> PDP-11/20  vd  one that just says  pdp 11  what are the  date differences?? 
> OEM?  was one  version  for customer and  one  for OEM?
> THANKS IN ADVANCE
>  
> Ed#  
>  
>  

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 02:25:36 2016
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:25:36 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>

Which has always struck me as a bit odd, since the PDP-11 family was
designed to be just that, a family.  So you'd think that "marketing" would
have kept that in mind when designing the first front panel label ...

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
Pihlgren
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 3:12 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
differences?? OEM?

The PDP-11/20 was the first PDP-11. I believe the number was added when the
other models came out, to discern them.

/P

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:03:17AM -0500, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> PDP-11/20  vd  one that just says  pdp 11  what are the  date
differences?? 
> OEM?  was one  version  for customer and  one  for OEM?
> THANKS IN ADVANCE
>  
> Ed#
>  
>  


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 02:26:29 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:26:29 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <1cdcf2.66c1534.43fc2034@aol.com>

Ok  then it  definitely  defines   the  date  then of  a unit.
 
eons  ago  when I first had started compute exchange in Phx  we  had  one 
that just  said  pdp -11 as I   remember  it came from Sandia  Labs.
 
 
Currently  we  have a  11/20 Ed#  smecc.org 
 
 
In a message dated 2/22/2016 1:12:16 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pontus at Update.UU.SE writes:

The  PDP-11/20 was the first PDP-11. I believe the number was added when 
the  other models came out, to discern them.

/P

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016  at 03:03:17AM -0500, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> PDP-11/20   vd  one that just says  pdp 11  what are the  date  
differences?? 
> OEM?  was one  version  for customer  and  one  for OEM?
> THANKS IN ADVANCE
>  
>  Ed#  
>  
>   


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 02:26:51 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:26:51 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:25:36AM -0500, Paul Birkel wrote:
> Which has always struck me as a bit odd, since the PDP-11 family was
> designed to be just that, a family.  So you'd think that "marketing" would
> have kept that in mind when designing the first front panel label ...
> 

Indeed, and it's just something I've "heard" so there might actually be 
another reason.

/P

From bryan at bceassociates.com  Sun Feb 21 19:28:51 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 20:28:51 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <-5684082981307906812@unknownmsgid>

I have a VAXStation 3100 which is similar. I am told they are slow but usable.

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 8:21 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> It was written...
>> Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers
>> since hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.
>
> Actually, I found those numbers Jerome provided quite interesting. It wasn't
> me that asked about the speed of an emulator... but I'm sure the person
> asking got some datapoints. Thanks Jerome!
>
> I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it up once when I
> got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since (probably 10 years). I'm
> not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play around
> with?
>
> J
>
>
>
>

From cramcram at gmail.com  Sun Feb 21 20:40:19 2016
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:40:19 -0800
Subject: Schematic for PA68-F (High speed paper taper reader/punch for
 PDP-8)
In-Reply-To: <56CA329B.6060905@jwsss.com>
References: <CAC20j8S6LsM7ZcH=rsbGeJDkmW_soyxRWd3gHVaByU0kvfQSrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A7A5BAB124FC46CC8DD5966BA133977A@Vincew7>
 <CAC20j8QfSi-RU3KVt9ZrS6f_XNf0qb8-jVAx0vnknr-EA2-Eqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CA329B.6060905@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8TCdzH3gQoBaPX4V+Tm2qVm1hN9KRkDSeR3BxL_zsvdag@mail.gmail.com>

No, I got this quite a while ago along with a couple of 8A's and TU56's. It
was in a rack with some random custom stuff.  I just finally decided to see
what it was.  Unfortunately it doesn't have the DEC paper tape
reader/punch, just a Remex reader with no interface board.

Marc

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:56 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/21/2016 10:28 AM, Marc Howard wrote:
>
>> Thanks!  I didn't know the drawings were part of the Typeset-8
>> documentation.  Now to find out if any modules are missing/misplaced...
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <
>> v.slyngstad at frontier.com
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> From: Marc Howard: Saturday, February 20, 2016 5:29 PM
>>>
>>> I'm looking for the schematic for a PA68-F.  It's a two high collection
>>>> of
>>>> single width M series modules that implements the paper tape high speed
>>>> reader/punch control for positive bus machines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Did someone end up with the Dec paper tape reader/punch recently sold on
> Ebay?
>
> thanks
> Jim
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 02:27:42 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:27:42 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <1cdcfb.896d26d.43fc207e@aol.com>

what was the break point as far as manufacture dates between the   2?
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 2/22/2016 1:25:31 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pbirkel at gmail.com writes:

Which  has always struck me as a bit odd, since the PDP-11 family was
designed to  be just that, a family.  So you'd think that "marketing" would
have  kept that in mind when designing the first front panel label  ...

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk  [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of  Pontus
Pihlgren
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 3:12 AM
To: General  Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that  just says pdp 11 what are the date
differences?? OEM?

The PDP-11/20  was the first PDP-11. I believe the number was added when the
other models  came out, to discern them.

/P

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:03:17AM  -0500, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> PDP-11/20  vd  one that  just says  pdp 11  what are the  date
differences?? 
>  OEM?  was one  version  for customer and  one  for  OEM?
> THANKS IN ADVANCE
>  
> Ed#
>   
>  



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 02:31:12 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:31:12 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <1cdd33.40ea5c49.43fc2150@aol.com>

or maybe initially  they  figured to use letters after  the  11.... example 
  pdp-11/a pdp-11/E
then  once out   decided to  use    numbers as a dub designator 
 
Ed#


From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb 22 02:34:58 2016
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:34:58 +0000
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CAC832.6020905@ntlworld.com>

On 22/02/16 08:25, Paul Birkel wrote:
> Which has always struck me as a bit odd, since the PDP-11 family was
> designed to be just that, a family.  So you'd think that "marketing" would
> have kept that in mind when designing the first front panel label ...

In my experience it's not at all unusual for naming conventions to fail to
cater for the obvious until the follow-up unit is designed.

Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 02:54:01 2016
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 03:54:01 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>

I wonder how long it took them to "figure it out"?  I seems that the
family-plan dates to April 1969.

June 1970 seems to be generally quoted as the introduction date for the
PDP-11/20.  And then June 1972 for the 11/10.

My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I guess makes it
fairly early in the production run (but I do wonder what the initial
manufacturing rate was given the relative riskiness of this new
architecture).  Anyone have S# and dates for "plain 11" vs. 11/20-marked for
comparison?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
Pihlgren
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 3:27 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
differences?? OEM?

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:25:36AM -0500, Paul Birkel wrote:
> Which has always struck me as a bit odd, since the PDP-11 family was 
> designed to be just that, a family.  So you'd think that "marketing" 
> would have kept that in mind when designing the first front panel label
...
> 

Indeed, and it's just something I've "heard" so there might actually be
another reason.

/P



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Feb 22 02:54:14 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:54:14 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20160222085414.GA96535@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jay West wrote:

> It was written...
> >Yes. Jerome he is right, he ist not intrrested in your great numbers 
> >since hi want to emulate not a PDP11, but a VAX.
> 
> Actually, I found those numbers Jerome provided quite interesting. It wasn't
> me that asked about the speed of an emulator... but I'm sure the person
> asking got some datapoints. Thanks Jerome!

Jerome already published that numbers in the past, I remeber his 750Mhz CPU
emulating the PDP11..

Nevertheless, it has nothing todo with the question about a VAX for doing
databse development.
Besides of this, the 750Mhz CPU ist not that fast, you can almost emulate
in on an actual PC :-)
> 
> I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it up once when I
> got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since (probably 10 years). I'm
> not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play around
> with?
> 
> J

You can always play around with it, I've suggesting an older VMS for it
since those machines tend to be small and slow for VMS7.3. You can check
NetBSD too but I had some ugly problems with VS3100s in the past (M38,
M76). I do have a VS4000/90 to, that's a faster one and I've enjoyed DEC
Windows with it. Have an VAX4000/300 repaired too..

It's definitivly more fun to playa with real hardware, but for Software
development or testing I would suggest simh today.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Feb 22 03:00:41 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:00:41 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>

Bryan C. Everly wrote:

> Greg,
> 
> I applaud your goal.  I'm trying to resurrect my 3100 so I can try and keep
> this architecture alive on OpenBSD.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan

...you would'nt have much fun. Even an 3100/M76 ist dog slow..

Build a "world" on such a machine takes alsmost a week, not hours.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Feb 22 03:31:35 2016
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:31:35 +0100 (CET)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I guess makes it
> fairly early in the production run (but I do wonder what the initial
> manufacturing rate was given the relative riskiness of this new
> architecture).  Anyone have S# and dates for "plain 11" vs. 11/20-marked for
> comparison?

Our PDP-11 is labeled as "S-308", the date is 9/16/70. And I think they 
called it PDP11-20 from the beginning, as the model number above the 
serial number says "M11-20"

Christian

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 03:39:30 2016
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 04:39:30 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>

Agreed; I neglected to mention that mine also is marked in that manner!
Seems like DEC had ramped up to about 15-20 machines/day by mid-September.

Guess that the front panel graphics guys "didn't yet get the memo".  Or
maybe someone was hedging their bets against an ignominious sales failure in
the initial front panel production?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
Corti
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 4:32 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
differences?? OEM?

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I guess makes 
> it fairly early in the production run (but I do wonder what the 
> initial manufacturing rate was given the relative riskiness of this 
> new architecture).  Anyone have S# and dates for "plain 11" vs. 
> 11/20-marked for comparison?

Our PDP-11 is labeled as "S-308", the date is 9/16/70. And I think they
called it PDP11-20 from the beginning, as the model number above the serial
number says "M11-20"

Christian


From abs at absd.org  Mon Feb 22 04:29:40 2016
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:29:40 +0000
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 09:00, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> Bryan C. Everly wrote:
>
> > Greg,
> >
> > I applaud your goal.  I'm trying to resurrect my 3100 so I can try and keep
> > this architecture alive on OpenBSD.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bryan
>
> ...you would'nt have much fun. Even an 3100/M76 ist dog slow..
>
> Build a "world" on such a machine takes alsmost a week, not hours.

"Fun" is definitely dependent on frame of reference - I'm still
looking out for a uVaxII to go alongside my VAXStation 4000/90 on
which to run NetBSD (specifically to get timing numbers for every
NetBSD release, and "Just Because" :)

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 22 04:50:58 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:50:58 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> > On Feb 21, 2016, at 14:41 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for that. Are you able to provide confirmed working details &
> > pinouts for the cable? IIRC it was just three wire; Rx/Tx/Gnd? Would
> > help if I could have confirmed working setup there.
> 
> I'll need to dig inside my machine to verify the wiring; I'll try to remember to
>  do that sometime today. I'm pretty sure that it's a simple 3-wire connection
> at 38400 baud.

It is. There are 2 positions you can connect the TU58 to the 11/730 CPU, both 
10 pin headers. One is on the backplane, the other is on the WCS board. The
latter is used in whichever version it is that has the CPU in a more conventional
box (boards standing vertically) with the TU58 mounted in the rack cabinet.

The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the latter. It's
RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 22 04:52:51 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:52:51 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMQ50mBJAWmB7rLWtQeGzL8BxWtvbzvcrtZ4_Aoxc2B2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>,
 <CAPhLQbMQ50mBJAWmB7rLWtQeGzL8BxWtvbzvcrtZ4_Aoxc2B2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8500@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> That's my understanding too - complicated by the fact that are two
> Tx/Rx pairs for the two drives IIRC...

No it's just one pair, to pne controller board (fitted on top of the drive
module). The commands specify which drive is to be used.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 22 05:05:19 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:05:19 +0000
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMGd+V0E9kQ3V8xhL2yc0Q9as7wJPJEhRsYXShK2t=KEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8358@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAPhLQbMGd+V0E9kQ3V8xhL2yc0Q9as7wJPJEhRsYXShK2t=KEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E851D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> >
> > I have found that those little in-line RS232 testers with 7 or so bicolour
> > LEDs monitoring the important signals are very useful when working on
> > a machine with a serial terminal. If you get flickering on the TxD or RxD
> > LEDs then it is sending something.
> 
> Yes and I usually use such; I have an assortment of things from inline
> testers to breakout boxes to Tektronic analysers. But this hookup was

So do I. I have been lucky a couple of times when people have decided that
nobody uses RS232 any more and have given me various nice bits of test gear,

The thing about the LED tester is that it doesn't need configuring, there are no
switches that could be set wrongly (or open, as on a breakout box), etc. So it 
does no harm [1]. I generally stick it in the link by default if I am bringing up a 
new machine ro similar.

[1] One day I will find a serial port with weak drivers that can't drive the LEDs and
still have enough voltage swing to operate the receiver properly. Such a port 
probably needs repairing anyway.

> so simple and obvious nothing could go wrong.... (!)

One of the laws of research is 'In any collection of data, that figure which is 
obviously correct, beyond all need of checking, is the mistake' :-). It applies 
to hardware too (as I have found out the hard way more times than I care
to remember!).


[...]

> > There should be a pause between the 'CONV0' and the '11' IIRC
> 
> Indeed that's how it comes up. Very short pause since I have most of
> the memory out as part of potential gotcha elimination - and the last
> two tests are memory tests IIRC; they take a little longer.

It's not testing the VAX memory, it's testing the console processor RAM and
I think the CPU control store RAM. 

> > You should then get 2 lines of read errors for DD1 and DD0 in that
> > order. If you get a 'Device Error' then the TU58 controller is not
> > responding at all, either it is not plugged in or it has serious problems.
> 
> Yep that was shown in the link I gave. In text it's:
> 
> CONV011
> ?27  READ ERROR DD1
> ?27  READ ERROR DD0
> ROM>^C
> 
> ?27  READ ERROR DD1
> ?27  READ ERROR DD0
> ROM>

Looks like the 8085 side is working correctly. That's what mine does.

> > I have 2 genuine 11/730 console tapes. Not that it does me any good, they
> > both have dropouts and are shedding oxide. The output of the read amplifier
> > in the TU58 is 'interesting' shall we say.
> >
> > I am currently rebulding a standalone TU58. My aim is to somehow find a good
> > tape (the hard part) and then to dump an 11/730 console tape image to it. That
> > means writing some kind of program to talk to the TU58 (another hard part).

> I did wonder how one might go about writing a tape image to a physical
> tape... I'm happy to get the thing loaded via the emulator for now -
> but I'd like to get real working tapes eventually.

Given that some of the TU58 emulators seem to need a PC or similar to run 
them, I am certainly not going to go that route! Modifying the TU58 firmware
to let it access some kind of flash device or possibly making a micorcontroller
board is a last resort if I can't get any tapes to work.

> 
> If it helps your 'hard part' I have at least a couple of brand new
> TU58 tapes - still sealed in plastic wrap...

Alas that doesn't mean much. I unwrapped a tape like that, it was the only
time I've had a belt break. The tape seems to fail with age and shed oxide.

The tapes are of course pre-formatted, but it may be possible to make a 
formatter for totally blank tapes. At least the format is documented, and it 
doesn't involve anything that can't be written by a normal head.

-tony

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 06:07:35 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:07:35 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 22, 2016 4:39 AM, "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed; I neglected to mention that mine also is marked in that manner!
> Seems like DEC had ramped up to about 15-20 machines/day by mid-September.
>
> Guess that the front panel graphics guys "didn't yet get the memo".  Or
> maybe someone was hedging their bets against an ignominious sales failure
in
> the initial front panel production?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
> Corti
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 4:32 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
> differences?? OEM?
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> > My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I guess makes
> > it fairly early in the production run (but I do wonder what the
> > initial manufacturing rate was given the relative riskiness of this
> > new architecture).  Anyone have S# and dates for "plain 11" vs.
> > 11/20-marked for comparison?
>
> Our PDP-11 is labeled as "S-308", the date is 9/16/70. And I think they
> called it PDP11-20 from the beginning, as the model number above the
serial
> number says "M11-20"
>
> Christian
>

I have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11 model
configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me at least this
throws into question the whole "...the 10 first came out with the 5
in1972..." story everyone repeats over and over, unless one must have a
"10" printed on the console in order to accept a computer model's
existence.  DEC must not have sold many original 10 models, and/or everyone
who has a 10 does not realize that's what they have.  But, facts are facts
and the brochure and price guide I have is what it is.  Hoping some here
will check for themselves and consider it misleading at least to simply
call the original PDP-11 a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short,
the original bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped version
was the pdp-11 20.

Why DEC temporarily dropped it's pdp-11 10 model from the product line and
from newer price sheets I can't say.   Certainly the "10" was gone when DEC
rebranded their front nameplates to read "pdp 11/20".  I believe the 1969
brochure is on bitsavers, or I think my website has a copy you can download.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 06:14:33 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:14:33 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 07:07:35AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> 
> I have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11 model
> configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me at least this
> throws into question the whole "...the 10 first came out with the 5
> in1972..." story everyone repeats over and over, unless one must have a
> "10" printed on the console in order to accept a computer model's
> existence.  DEC must not have sold many original 10 models, and/or everyone
> who has a 10 does not realize that's what they have.  But, facts are facts
> and the brochure and price guide I have is what it is.  Hoping some here
> will check for themselves and consider it misleading at least to simply
> call the original PDP-11 a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short,
> the original bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped version
> was the pdp-11 20.

I will definitely correct myself in the future. It would be interresting 
to see if anyone has a "numberless" machine with the "M11-10" 
designation printed on the back, to see if any was actually delivered 
(and I wouldn't be surprised if there was).

/P

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 06:15:06 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:15:06 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <cf14e.4b890cd3.43fc55ca@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 5:07:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
billdegnan at gmail.com writes:

On Feb  22, 2016 4:39 AM, "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> Agreed; I neglected to mention that mine also is marked  in that manner!
> Seems like DEC had ramped up to about 15-20  machines/day by 
mid-September.
>
> Guess that the front panel  graphics guys "didn't yet get the memo".  Or
> maybe someone was  hedging their bets against an ignominious sales failure
in
> the  initial front panel production?
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On  Behalf Of 
Christian
> Corti
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 4:32  AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>  Subject: RE: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
>  differences?? OEM?
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel  wrote:
> > My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I  guess makes
> > it fairly early in the production run (but I do  wonder what the
> > initial manufacturing rate was given the relative  riskiness of this
> > new architecture).  Anyone have S# and  dates for "plain 11" vs.
> > 11/20-marked for  comparison?
>
> Our PDP-11 is labeled as "S-308", the date is  9/16/70. And I think they
> called it PDP11-20 from the beginning, as  the model number above the
serial
> number says  "M11-20"
>
> Christian
>

I have an original 1969 PDP  11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11 model
configurations to  choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me at least this
throws into  question the whole "...the 10 first came out with the 5
in1972..." story  everyone repeats over and over, unless one must have a
"10" printed on the  console in order to accept a computer model's
existence.  DEC must not  have sold many original 10 models, and/or everyone
who has a 10 does not  realize that's what they have.  But, facts are facts
and the brochure  and price guide I have is what it is.  Hoping some here
will check for  themselves and consider it misleading at least to simply
call the original  PDP-11 a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short,
the original  bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped version
was the  pdp-11 20.

Why DEC temporarily dropped it's pdp-11 10 model from the  product line and
from newer price sheets I can't say.   Certainly  the "10" was gone when DEC
rebranded their front nameplates to read "pdp  11/20".  I believe the 1969
brochure is on bitsavers, or I think my  website has a copy you can 
download.

Bill Degnan
twitter:  billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
 
 
I had  heard a rumor the  10  was an oem version!?
does that make any sense Bill?
 
Ed#



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 06:16:24 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:16:24 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueDaYtie15WkA+sX540Vy=3pYGDpcERVDBjH-AXO9DpXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 07:07:35AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> >
> > I have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11
> model
> > configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me at least this
> > throws into question the whole "...the 10 first came out with the 5
> > in1972..." story everyone repeats over and over, unless one must have a
> > "10" printed on the console in order to accept a computer model's
> > existence.  DEC must not have sold many original 10 models, and/or
> everyone
> > who has a 10 does not realize that's what they have.  But, facts are
> facts
> > and the brochure and price guide I have is what it is.  Hoping some here
> > will check for themselves and consider it misleading at least to simply
> > call the original PDP-11 a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short,
> > the original bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped
> version
> > was the pdp-11 20.
>
> I will definitely correct myself in the future. It would be interresting
> to see if anyone has a "numberless" machine with the "M11-10"
> designation printed on the back, to see if any was actually delivered
> (and I wouldn't be surprised if there was).
>
> /P
>

Here is the doc in question. Note is says 11/10 and 11/20

http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Price-List_19691215.pdf

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 06:17:35 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:17:35 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <cf1a6.f76b497.43fc565e@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 5:14:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pontus at Update.UU.SE writes:

On Mon,  Feb 22, 2016 at 07:07:35AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> 
> I  have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11  
model
> configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me  at least this
> throws into question the whole "...the 10 first came out  with the 5
> in1972..." story everyone repeats over and over, unless one  must have a
> "10" printed on the console in order to accept a computer  model's
> existence.  DEC must not have sold many original 10  models, and/or 
everyone
> who has a 10 does not realize that's what they  have.  But, facts are 
facts
> and the brochure and price guide I  have is what it is.  Hoping some here
> will check for themselves  and consider it misleading at least to simply
> call the original PDP-11  a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short,
> the original  bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped 
version
> was the  pdp-11 20.

I will definitely correct myself in the future. It would be  interresting 
to see if anyone has a "numberless" machine with the "M11-10"  
designation printed on the back, to see if any was actually delivered  
(and I wouldn't be surprised if there was

/P
 
Well I owned  one  in 1980  that  just    said  only  PDP 11....   but  so  
long ago do not  remember the  label
 
when I  got a chance to swap  some   stuff    for the 11/20    for the 
museum I  jumped at it.



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 06:19:19 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:19:19 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <cf1e1.5668c9a9.43fc56c7@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 5:16:27 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
billdegnan at gmail.com writes:

On Mon,  Feb 22, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Pontus Pihlgren  <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at  07:07:35AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> >
> > I have an  original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11
>  model
> > configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For  me at least this
> > throws into question the whole "...the 10 first  came out with the 5
> > in1972..." story everyone repeats over and  over, unless one must have a
> > "10" printed on the console in order  to accept a computer model's
> > existence.  DEC must not have  sold many original 10 models, and/or
> everyone
> > who has a  10 does not realize that's what they have.  But, facts are
>  facts
> > and the brochure and price guide I have is what it  is.  Hoping some 
here
> > will check for themselves and consider  it misleading at least to simply
> > call the original PDP-11 a "pdp  11/20 without the nameplate".  In 
short,
> > the original  bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped
> version
>  > was the pdp-11 20.
>
> I will definitely correct myself in  the future. It would be interresting
> to see if anyone has a  "numberless" machine with the "M11-10"
> designation printed on the  back, to see if any was actually delivered
> (and I wouldn't be  surprised if there was).
>
> /P
>

Here is the doc in  question. Note is says 11/10 and 11/20
 
 
hahahha!!!!   turnkey console on 10
programmers  console on 20
 
in brochure!
 
Ed#####
 



http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Price-List_19691215.pdf

--  
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg  <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg  <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio  <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 06:20:59 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:20:59 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueDaYtie15WkA+sX540Vy=3pYGDpcERVDBjH-AXO9DpXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>
 <CABGJBueDaYtie15WkA+sX540Vy=3pYGDpcERVDBjH-AXO9DpXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222122059.GB14267@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 07:16:24AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> 
> Here is the doc in question. Note is says 11/10 and 11/20
> 
> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Price-List_19691215.pdf

Hmm, notice that it says "Turnkey Console" which I believe means it 
lacks the lights and switches console?

/P

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 06:25:16 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:25:16 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <cf2db.54a8c791.43fc582c@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 5:21:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pontus at Update.UU.SE writes:

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 07:16:24AM -0500, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Here is the doc in question. Note is says 11/10 and  11/20
> 
>  http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Price-List_19691215.pdf

Hmm,  notice that it says "Turnkey Console" which I believe means it 
lacks the  lights and switches console?

/P

yes......
 
there therye was another  pdp 11/10  that  was a versioon of  the 11/05   
so in reality there were  2  differt  11/10's  
one that was a deballed  20 and one that was   a  05  variant... as  
explainedd
 
 
The PDP-11/10 was the second processor made in  the _PDP-11_ 
(http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11)  series. 
The  PDP-11/05 CPU was identical to the PDP-11/10 (KA11-B). The only 
difference  between the PDP-11/05 and the PDP-11/10 was that the PDP-11/05 was 
made for OEM,  while the PDP-11/10 was for end-users. 
sort of  like   the  8 m and 8  f   were same but one oem one end user  
Ed# at  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  




From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 06:47:05 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:47:05 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222122059.GB14267@Update.UU.SE>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>
 <CABGJBueDaYtie15WkA+sX540Vy=3pYGDpcERVDBjH-AXO9DpXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222122059.GB14267@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucP-9RqbZD20rEYaL1gdikkWfQ6C9z+R9AuXqvLp77yLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 07:16:24AM -0500, william degnan wrote:
> >
> > Here is the doc in question. Note is says 11/10 and 11/20
> >
> >
> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Price-List_19691215.pdf
>
> Hmm, notice that it says "Turnkey Console" which I believe means it
> lacks the lights and switches console?
>
> /P
>


Yes.  The 11/10 has 1K read only memory, 128 words read-write core, turnkey
console, and a direct memory access channel.....a process control system.
Add a front panel and teletype, a little more memory and you have the
11/20.  I am guessing the 11/10's were embedded in stuff, they're probably
still out there but harder to find.  If you have a front panel model it's
probably the 11/20, or a (field) upgraded 11/10.
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 06:49:34 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:49:34 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucP-9RqbZD20rEYaL1gdikkWfQ6C9z+R9AuXqvLp77yLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222121432.GA14267@Update.UU.SE>
 <CABGJBueDaYtie15WkA+sX540Vy=3pYGDpcERVDBjH-AXO9DpXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222122059.GB14267@Update.UU.SE>
 <CABGJBucP-9RqbZD20rEYaL1gdikkWfQ6C9z+R9AuXqvLp77yLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufJnZycMqJQ6LJ7NNwfNp7YnHMiL=pOcqVXG23xWFofsg@mail.gmail.com>

Here is January 1970 Datamation "product of the month" with more info

http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Articles_1970Jan.pdf

b

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Feb 22 06:51:58 2016
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:51:58 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>

David Brownlee wrote:

> On 22 February 2016 at 09:00, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> >
> > Bryan C. Everly wrote:
> >
> > > Greg,
> > >
> > > I applaud your goal.  I'm trying to resurrect my 3100 so I can try and keep
> > > this architecture alive on OpenBSD.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Bryan
> >
> > ...you would'nt have much fun. Even an 3100/M76 ist dog slow..
> >
> > Build a "world" on such a machine takes alsmost a week, not hours.
> 
> "Fun" is definitely dependent on frame of reference - I'm still
> looking out for a uVaxII to go alongside my VAXStation 4000/90 on
> which to run NetBSD (specifically to get timing numbers for every
> NetBSD release, and "Just Because" :)

Yes, it depends..

I at least have a card cage with an uVAXII (KA630, UC07 etc ) and had run
Quasijarus a while before. Yes it's fun to play with old machines, but I
don't think that it is funny to build and test Software like PostgreSQL on
them.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 22 06:59:55 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:59:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <20160222125955.16A9118C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > I have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure. In it there are two PDP 11
    > model configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20. For me at least
    > this throws into question the whole "... the 10 first came out with the
    > 5 in 1972..." story everyone repeats over and over

This is a known 'artifact' in PDP-11 history. DEC originally used the /10
designation for a cost-reduced 11/20. They never produced any, AFAIK - I'm
pretty sure (without checking) that machine was re-labelled the /15, and those
_do_ exist (I used one BITD).

According to DEC documentation, the /15 has a KC11 processor, not the KA11 of
the /20 (although I've never been able to find out much about the KC11 - I
suspect it was a slightly modified KA11); the main functional difference
listed is that it only supports one level of interrupt, not four; power-fail
re-start is also optional, not standard.

I have this bit set that both the /15 and /20 could be had with the 'simple'
front console, that that wasn't the differentiator between them.

The later /5-/10 pairing does indeed exist - I have one of each. They are
absolutely identical except for the printing on the faceplate.

	Noel

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 07:01:15 2016
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:01:15 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.11.1602221029510.28767@linuxserv.home>
 <001301d16d54$ee5abee0$cb103ca0$@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudwwiPTExiUyBjsjUU8Hr3E5ph0_WhCBwUcztV4yrsi9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01d16d71$1d2c2760$57847620$@gmail.com>

IMO a lot hinges on understanding the differences between the KA11 and KH11-A processors.  As was sometimes the case, DEC "marketing" models can hide differences under the hood over time.

...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
> Christian Corti
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 4:32 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date differences?? OEM?
>
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> > My PDP-11 is labeled as "S-386" and dated 9/23/70, which I guess 
> > makes it fairly early in the production run (but I do wonder what 
> > the initial manufacturing rate was given the relative riskiness of 
> > this new architecture).  Anyone have S# and dates for "plain 11" vs.
> > 11/20-marked for comparison?
>
> Our PDP-11 is labeled as "S-308", the date is 9/16/70. And I think 
> they called it PDP11-20 from the beginning, as the model number above 
> the serial number says "M11-20"
>
> Christian
>

I have an original 1969 PDP 11 brochure.  In it there are two PDP 11 model configurations to choose from; the 10 and the 20.  For me at least this throws into question the whole "...the 10 first came out with the 5 in1972..." story everyone repeats over and over, unless one must have a "10" printed on the console in order to accept a computer model's existence.  DEC must not have sold many original 10 models, and/or everyone who has a 10 does not realize that's what they have.  But, facts are facts and the brochure and price guide I have is what it is.  Hoping some here will check for themselves and consider it misleading at least to simply call the original PDP-11 a "pdp 11/20 without the nameplate".  In short, the original bare-bones pdp11 was the pdp-11 10, the fully-equipped version was the pdp-11 20.

Why DEC temporarily dropped it's pdp-11 10 model from the product line and from newer price sheets I can't say.   Certainly the "10" was gone when DEC rebranded their front nameplates to read "pdp 11/20".  I believe the 1969 brochure is on bitsavers, or I think my website has a copy you can download.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net


From ramdyne at gmx.net  Mon Feb 22 07:04:58 2016
From: ramdyne at gmx.net (Andreas Sikkema)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:04:58 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <56C97F00.4060409@e-bbes.com>
References: <56C32D99.7030306@gmx.net>
	<56C97F00.4060409@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CABkXqaPGQ0bCzGGunwmCrfBRbmZWZ_vGL0PxGoheMUqhxeaT9g@mail.gmail.com>

> So, are they all taken? Anybody picked them up?

Yes so far. No  one has picked them up yet, interest is mostly from
countries east of the Netherlands.

-- 
Andreas

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 07:08:20 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:08:20 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222125955.16A9118C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160222125955.16A9118C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudw6z3mf9Y5veZ-cPinz0_uOm-v7biq-TSkmJK3Wva4wQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> This is a known 'artifact' in PDP-11 history. DEC originally used the /10
> designation for a cost-reduced 11/20. They never produced any, AFAIK - I'm
> pretty sure (without checking) that machine was re-labelled the /15, and
> those
> _do_ exist (I used one BITD).
>
> According to DEC documentation, the /15 has a KC11 processor, not the KA11
> of
> the /20 (although I've never been able to find out much about the KC11 - I
> suspect it was a slightly modified KA11); the main functional difference
> listed is that it only supports one level of interrupt, not four;
> power-fail
> re-start is also optional, not standard.
>
> I have this bit set that both the /15 and /20 could be had with the
> 'simple'
> front console, that that wasn't the differentiator between them.
>
> The later /5-/10 pairing does indeed exist - I have one of each. They are
> absolutely identical except for the printing on the faceplate.
>
>         Noel
>

The 11/15 was not part of the original launch.  The original PDP 11 /10 and
/20 use the same KA11 processor.  Sources

Original product brochure
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Brochure_1970Feb.pdf

Datamation 1/1970 and Electronics Jan 1970:
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-20/PDP11_Articles_1970Jan.pdf



-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From emu at e-bbes.com  Mon Feb 22 07:12:51 2016
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:12:51 +0100
Subject: PCS Cadmus/QU68000 systems
In-Reply-To: <CABkXqaPGQ0bCzGGunwmCrfBRbmZWZ_vGL0PxGoheMUqhxeaT9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56C32D99.7030306@gmx.net> <56C97F00.4060409@e-bbes.com>
 <CABkXqaPGQ0bCzGGunwmCrfBRbmZWZ_vGL0PxGoheMUqhxeaT9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160222141251.3wuygi8mhw44ococ@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von Andreas Sikkema <ramdyne at gmx.net>:

>> So, are they all taken? Anybody picked them up?
>
> Yes so far. No  one has picked them up yet, interest is mostly from
> countries east of the Netherlands.

Just checking, if anybody from southern Germany is getting some, so we  
could share the expenses for shipping/picking them up.

Would love to have a System, but shipping individually would probably  
be to expensive :(

Cheers

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 07:33:08 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:33:08 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <cf2db.54a8c791.43fc582c@aol.com>
References: <cf2db.54a8c791.43fc582c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucpZrqOYeqK31jLKY_OgVZum-u9cEM5=9fibQTco9CiuA@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> The PDP-11/10 was the second processor made in  the _PDP-11_
> (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11)  series.
> The  PDP-11/05 CPU was identical to the PDP-11/10 (KA11-B). The only
> difference  between the PDP-11/05 and the PDP-11/10 was that the PDP-11/05
> was
> made for OEM,  while the PDP-11/10 was for end-users.
> sort of  like   the  8 m and 8  f   were same but one oem one end user
> Ed# at  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
>
>
>
>
The second 11/10 obviously.  Not the 1st.  The first 11/10 was a KA11

I hope I am making my point - I am suggesting that everyone stop quoting
and repeating the DEC wiki's on the web.  They all need to be updated to
reflect this subtle difference.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Feb 22 08:08:56 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:08:56 -0500
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
Message-ID: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>

While the debugger in question will be for the PDP-11 set of instructions
executing under RT-11 (what else would I be asking about), the features
needed are the same for most other environments.  I am looking for
helpful suggestions as to what has been found useful.

Obviously, single stepping through a program is really helpful as is
the display of each instruction that is executed in a manner similar
to what is seen in the assembler listing.  Also essential is the ability
to display the values of all registers and anywhere in memory while
stopped at any given instruction.

A number of other ideas are as follows:

(a)  During a multi-step sequence, stop the sequence when the
      stack has more then a specified number of words of increase
      or decrease - each specified separately
(b)  Set the address range within which the stack must remain
       or a multi-step sequence is stopped which is similar to (a),
       but expressed differently
(c)  Set the address range within which the program counter
       must remain or a multi-step sequence s stopped

Also possible to be checked are specified values that registers
have, or don't have, which stop a multi-step sequence.  Checks
on memory locations can also be included.

And a record of which instructions were executed by saving
the program counter addresses in a circular buffer allows the
user to check for unexpected execution of certain parts of
the code.

An evaluation of all of the above would be appreciated,
especially the last two paragraphs in respect of how useful
each might be since the overhead is quite CPU intensive
when included any implementation.  On the other hand,
any time the user single steps through the code, the CPU
overhead from the debugger is extremely CPU intensive
in the first place.

All suggestions and comments are much appreciated!!!!!!!!!

Jerome Fine

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 08:22:55 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:22:55 +0100
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
In-Reply-To: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>
References: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20160222142255.GA7961@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 09:08:56AM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> 
> A number of other ideas are as follows:
> 
> (a)  During a multi-step sequence, stop the sequence when the
>      stack has more then a specified number of words of increase
>      or decrease - each specified separately
> (b)  Set the address range within which the stack must remain
>       or a multi-step sequence is stopped which is similar to (a),
>       but expressed differently
> (c)  Set the address range within which the program counter
>       must remain or a multi-step sequence s stopped

I can see how all of these can be usefull. Perhaps a possibility of 
stopping after a given number of jumps?

> Also possible to be checked are specified values that registers
> have, or don't have, which stop a multi-step sequence.  Checks
> on memory locations can also be included.

Watching memory locations for changes or agains boolean expressions is 
very useful. 

> And a record of which instructions were executed by saving
> the program counter addresses in a circular buffer allows the
> user to check for unexpected execution of certain parts of
> the code.

A collegue used a similar tool that recorded _everything_ that happened 
in a CPU under testing. So he could step back and forth in program time 
and inspect registers and memory. Very useful and very expensive 
apparently.

> All suggestions and comments are much appreciated!!!!!!!!!

I allways use "run to" which is just a temporary breakpoint. Useful and 
probably easy to implement.

/P

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 08:26:54 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:26:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
In-Reply-To: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>
References: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <201602221426.JAA10722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Also possible to be checked are specified values that registers have,
> or don't have, which stop a multi-step sequence.  Checks on memory
> locations can also be included.

These and many of the other stop conditions could possibly be subsumed
by a "stop when this expression evaluates true" facility, with
expression primitives capable of representing all the things you might
want to watch.  It would of course be CPU-intensive if the expression
is complicated, but that's unavoidable, and I have occasionally wished
for "run until this number is greater than that number plus twice this
register" or the like, even if it runs multiple orders of magnitude
slower.  (Not when running under RT-11, but that's mostly because I
have done little-to-no work under RT-11 at all.)

> And a record of which instructions were executed by saving the
> program counter addresses in a circular buffer allows the user to
> check for unexpected execution of certain parts of the code.

I don't know how common self-modifying code is, but it might be nice to
be able to save not just the PC values but the actual instructions
executed.  (I would hope deliberate self-modifying code is rare, but
IIRC some -11s don't have the MMU hardware to prevent accidental
self-modifying code - or execution out of areas not normally thought of
as instructions.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 08:31:15 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:31:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I at least have a card cage with an uVAXII (KA630, UC07 etc ) and had
> run Quasijarus a while before.  Yes it's fun to play with old
> machines, but I don't think that it is funny to build and test
> Software like PostgreSQL on them.

If I cared about PostgreSQL I would; testing on slow/small machines is
a very effective way to keep developers honest, instead of hiding
algorithmic sins behind "hit it with enough hardware speed it's not
visible" - not visible, that is, until it goes into production with a
large job.

It's one of the reasons (there are others) I no longer track NetBSD:
they've dropped that.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Mon Feb 22 08:33:42 2016
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:33:42 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1456151622.2011.13.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2016-02-21 klockan 09:36 -0600 skrev Ben Sinclair: 
> I was just looking up VAXstations the other day on eBay. I checked
> again now for 4000's, and the prices seem crazy. Is there something
> particularly special about them, or is it just the usual eBay
> craziness?

It exists a number of applications there the customer has old
VAX-programs.

An 4000 is the smallest,cheapest and fastest way to in an method which
is proven and tested run binary-code only VAX-programs.

The problem could then be : expansion cards ? Any particular ones which
needs to be supported.



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 22 08:39:31 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:39:31 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-22 9:31 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> I at least have a card cage with an uVAXII (KA630, UC07 etc ) and had
>> run Quasijarus a while before.  Yes it's fun to play with old
>> machines, but I don't think that it is funny to build and test
>> Software like PostgreSQL on them.
>
> If I cared about PostgreSQL I would; testing on slow/small machines is
> a very effective way to keep developers honest, instead of hiding
> algorithmic sins behind "hit it with enough hardware speed it's not
> visible" - not visible, that is, until it goes into production with a
> large job.

Absolutely! This is a neglected concept. It applies equally to front end 
development, which is awash with bloat and resource wastage (hi Chrome!)

>
> It's one of the reasons (there are others) I no longer track NetBSD:
> they've dropped that.

So has Minix 3 - last I checked, x86 & ARM only - what's the point of that.

--Toby

>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Feb 22 04:55:34 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:55:34 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:21:27 -0600"
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <01PWZECSW1T600BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I do have a Microvax 3100-40. I remember that I powered it up once when I
> got it, and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since (probably 10 years). I'm
> not familiar with those type of machines, is that fast enough to play around
> with?
>

It is supposed to be 5 VUPS so it should be about 5 times as fast as an 11/780.
I guess whether this is fast enough depends on what you are going to be doing.

If you haven't already removed the battery, I'd suggest doing that as soon as
possible.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 22 09:07:38 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:07:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016, Richard Loken wrote:

> I used to do web browsing on a VAXstation 3100 and I stopped because whatever
> version of the browser I could use with VMS 5.5-1 crashed when presented with
> a monochrome monitor.  (That is totally wierd).

 That's not surprising to me at all, because to handle monochrome (1-bit) 
or greyscale (multi-bit) graphics hardware you actually have to explicitly 
code support respectively for a monochrome or greyscale visual in your 
graphics software.  And such hardware is virtually inexistent in the x86 
world which is I suppose what browser developers predominantly if not 
exclusively use.

 I've only ever heard of and saw a single kind of monochrome graphics 
hardware for x86 PCs and that was the Hercules Graphics Card (HGC) and its 
clones, and these were already gone by early to mid 1990s.  They were ISA 
cards compatible with IBM's MDA (and likewise with a parallel port 
included), with a hi-res monochrome (1-bit) graphics mode added.  They had 
a low-res 2-bit greyscale mode as well I'm told, but nobody used that I 
believe.

 All the other x86 graphics hardware has been colour, even if used with a 
monochrome monitor.

 Of course sane software would at least quit gracefully rather than crash, 
but given the above I suspect browser developers may not even be aware of 
the existence of monochrome and greyscale graphics hardware and hence 
didn't think anything was supposed to be done about that.  I suspect even 
what X11 calls pseudocolor (a small palette of colours out of a choice of 
many, mapped through a RAMDAC, e.g. 8-bit pixels mapped onto 24-bit 
colours, such as with the Bt459 RAMDAC chip commonly used by DEC) may not 
be supported these days.

  Maciej

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 09:14:48 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:14:48 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
> Xcode or any other dev environment...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 22 09:20:05 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:20:05 -0600
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <01PWZECSW1T600BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <01PWZECSW1T600BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <003301d16d84$82429f90$86c7deb0$@classiccmp.org>

Peter wrote...
------------------
It is supposed to be 5 VUPS so it should be about 5 times as fast as an
11/780.
I guess whether this is fast enough depends on what you are going to be
doing.
------------------
I was looking just for something to get me exposed to VMS :)

And...
----------
If you haven't already removed the battery, I'd suggest doing that as soon
as possible.
----------
Wasn't aware it had that potential issue, I've never opened it up. "Note to
self" made, will check tonight. Thanks!!

J



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 09:25:58 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:25:58 -0000
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <036b01d16d85$55027f40$ff077dc0$@gmail.com>

> >
> > If I cared about PostgreSQL I would; testing on slow/small machines is
> > a very effective way to keep developers honest, instead of hiding
> > algorithmic sins behind "hit it with enough hardware speed it's not
> > visible" - not visible, that is, until it goes into production with a
> > large job.
> 
> Absolutely! This is a neglected concept. It applies equally to front end
> development, which is awash with bloat and resource wastage (hi Chrome!)
> 

I remember one of the Digital India developers tell me his address book
integration tool worked fine. He had only tested it on a test address book.
He went very quiet when I told him it took 20 minutes to find my entry in
the digital All-In-One directory...

> >
> > It's one of the reasons (there are others) I no longer track NetBSD:
> > they've dropped that.
> 
> So has Minix 3 - last I checked, x86 & ARM only - what's the point of
that.
> 

Things don't get tracked unless there is effort and interest.

> --Toby
> 
Dave
G4UGM



From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 09:28:17 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:28:17 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 02:50, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the latter. It's
> RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.

I didn't get around to examining the wiring in my VAX last night, but I determined the wiring from the TU58 manual, anyway.

When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 22 09:28:53 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:28:53 -0600
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
Message-ID: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>

I had cause over the weekend to take apart my 8E dual-bay system (the
TU10/TM11 is being traded off). I remembered there was some discussion a few
weeks ago about the mid-sized dec cabinets with the sloped top front, so
figured I'd post a pic. Mine may be somewhat unusual in that the operator
controls for the TU10 are on this sloped front at the top rather than the
bottom left quadrant of the drive. The rack next to it with the 8E and TU56
has just a blank sloped front in that "PDP 8E Yellow".

 

Picture at :
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/24884152340/in/dateposted/

 

J


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 09:33:50 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:33:50 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 15:39, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> So has Minix 3 - last I checked, x86 & ARM only - what's the point of that.


Oh, come on. Be fair.

First, it's a student project without a huge amount of visibility in
the outside world.

Secondly, those are *the* two main computing platforms in the world
today, amounting to sales of *billions* of processors every year. I
suspect that every other general-purpose processor arch put together
amounts to a rounding error compared to ARM+x86.

It's not NetBSD. They're comparing it to NetBSD for what you could
call marketing purposes, but it's not a fork or derivative or anything
else. It's a whole new kernel to which they are porting the NetBSD
userland, as it's a good, clean, solid, FOSS offering.

If you want a simple low-end very portable Unix, there is still NetBSD itself.

Minix 3 is not just another FOSS Unix. It is trying to become
something very very different, something that has never been
successfully done in the FOSS world: a true microkernel Unix-like OS.

Not like the Xnu kernel of MacOS X: that is based on Mach 3.0, but it
is a large monolithic kernel containing a single huge in-kernel "Unix
server" derived from FreeBSD.

Unlike the GNU HURD, Minix 3 is relatively complete and functional --
and it's got there in under a decade.

It's not a new version of Minix 1 or 2 -- it's a totally new kernel.

The *only* OS in the world remotely comparable to Minix 3 is QNX,
which is not FOSS.

Minix 3 is built from a number of cooperating user-space processes --
servers -- which can die and be respawned while the OS is running.
Yes, including the filesystem, network stack etc. They even have tech
demos of this allowing for in-place complete version upgrades of the
running OS, *without reboots.*

Minix 3 is the single most technically impressive new Unix-like OS
that I have seen or heard of in the entire FOSS world in this century.

It deserves more respect than "what's the point of that".


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 09:35:44 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:35:44 -0500
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
Message-ID: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)

HP 4952?  I have two with tapes from the old days (they contain a
formatter, and we did wipe some scratch tapes for storage of our
analyzer programs, including a PU Type 2 BIND simulator that filled
the program memory, but it worked well enough for us to debug SNA BIND
sequences in the absence of a real PU Type 4).

-ethan

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 09:40:08 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:40:08 +0100
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E839B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E839B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGdq_2G7PL-2hVeMVErX-2+YzzZNwjuQ+5exbap+YHszA@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 February 2016 at 17:37, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Be careful. There are several Farnboroughs in England, and the one
> 'just outside London' is almost certainly not the one you mean. The
> 'just outside London' one for me is between Bromley and Green
> Street Green.
>
> I assume you mean the one in Hampshire, but...


I confess I didn't know that there was more than one Farnborough.
However, I did specify that the VAXstation was in Red Hat's UK HQ.

There's only one Red Hat and it only has one UK HQ. It is in the
business estate adjacent to Farnborough Airport in Hants.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 09:50:59 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:50:59 -0800
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 07:35, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)
> 
> HP 4952?

Good guess!

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796162223779840


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 09:54:06 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:54:06 -0800
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <EF227901-215A-4A45-9DF1-E01A10EE7352@nf6x.net>

The bigger picture:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796809413304320


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 22 09:54:38 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:54:38 -0500
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-22 10:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 22 February 2016 at 15:39, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> So has Minix 3 - last I checked, x86 & ARM only - what's the point of that.
>
>
> Oh, come on. Be fair.
>
> First, it's a student project without a huge amount of visibility in
> the outside world.
>
> Secondly, those are *the* two main computing platforms in the world
> today, amounting to sales of *billions* of processors every year. I
> suspect that every other general-purpose processor arch put together
> amounts to a rounding error compared to ARM+x86.
>
> It's not NetBSD. They're comparing it to NetBSD for what you could
> call marketing purposes, but it's not a fork or derivative or anything
> else. It's a whole new kernel to which they are porting the NetBSD
> userland, as it's a good, clean, solid, FOSS offering.
>
> If you want a simple low-end very portable Unix, there is still NetBSD itself.
>
> Minix 3 is not just another FOSS Unix. It is trying to become
> something very very different, something that has never been
> successfully done in the FOSS world: a true microkernel Unix-like OS.
>
> Not like the Xnu kernel of MacOS X: that is based on Mach 3.0, but it
> is a large monolithic kernel containing a single huge in-kernel "Unix
> server" derived from FreeBSD.
>
> Unlike the GNU HURD, Minix 3 is relatively complete and functional --
> and it's got there in under a decade.
>
> It's not a new version of Minix 1 or 2 -- it's a totally new kernel.
>
> The *only* OS in the world remotely comparable to Minix 3 is QNX,
> which is not FOSS.
>
> Minix 3 is built from a number of cooperating user-space processes --
> servers -- which can die and be respawned while the OS is running.
> Yes, including the filesystem, network stack etc. They even have tech
> demos of this allowing for in-place complete version upgrades of the
> running OS, *without reboots.*
>
> Minix 3 is the single most technically impressive new Unix-like OS
> that I have seen or heard of in the entire FOSS world in this century.
>
> It deserves more respect than "what's the point of that".
>
>

Portability was a fundamental free software tenet. It has technical 
benefits and it would make the project more relevant. The original Minix 
was far more portable.

If it can't adapt to what comes after x86 and ARM in whatever markets(?) 
it is pursuing then it will be in danger of extinction. Surely if it is 
chasing things like QNX then that would be vital - it's a different 
market with more diversity of architectures.

I don't think the current perceived size of x86/ARM markets will protect 
it as effectively as a diversity of targets would. Remember how 
ubiquitous SPARC, VAX, 68K were at one time; if you were stranded there, 
you don't exist now.

--Toby


From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 22 09:57:48 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:57:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212223100.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>
 <1229350600928094412@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212223100.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221555280.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016, Richard Loken wrote:

> I can see why you want one but I wonder what motivated Digital to decide
> whether to install a floppy or not.  I am quite certain that they had
> no motive to help us install OpenBSD.

 I'm fairly sure it was the customer that was the motivation.  If they 
ordered a model with a floppy drive, then they got one, otherwise they got 
one without.

  Maciej

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 10:01:45 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:01:45 -0500
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <EF227901-215A-4A45-9DF1-E01A10EE7352@nf6x.net>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <EF227901-215A-4A45-9DF1-E01A10EE7352@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=O3nKkt3yykMmRaq3Of22EM9wJ7sV8DVzMDmn9FQJoWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> The bigger picture:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796809413304320

Nice!

We had a couple 4951s set up at all times, mostly for sync debugging
of our own products, but occasionally, we stuck them between two
machines running Kermit or Blast or some other async transfer program
to figure out why they weren't happy.  We had one RS-232 and one combo
RS-232/differential (2 connectors) pod.  I see a few cheap machines on
eBay, but they are missing the pod cover.  Good for parts, but without
finding/fabricating an external interface, not immediately useful.
The complete machines seem to still fetch a pretty penny.

Great series of machines.

-ethan

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 10:04:14 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 08:04:14 -0800
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 07:54, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> I don't think the current perceived size of x86/ARM markets will protect it as effectively as a diversity of targets would. Remember how ubiquitous SPARC, VAX, 68K were at one time; if you were stranded there, you don't exist now.

As a case in point, look at apple switching from 68k to PowerPC for their desktop systems, then again from PowerPC to x86. With overlapping emulation in both cases, even. Both of those transitions were critical for their survival and growth.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 10:07:53 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:07:53 +0100
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 09:28:53AM -0600, Jay West wrote:
> I had cause over the weekend to take apart my 8E dual-bay system (the
> TU10/TM11 is being traded off). I remembered there was some discussion a few
> weeks ago about the mid-sized dec cabinets with the sloped top front, so
> figured I'd post a pic. 

Was there a conclusion to the modelnumber of the rack itself. The tall 
ones are H960. Are the shorter ones H965 ?

> 
> Picture at :
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/24884152340/in/dateposted/

Nice pictures, thank you.

/P

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 10:17:22 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:17:22 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 16:54, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> Portability was a fundamental free software tenet. It has technical benefits
> and it would make the project more relevant. The original Minix was far more
> portable.
>
> If it can't adapt to what comes after x86 and ARM in whatever markets(?) it
> is pursuing then it will be in danger of extinction. Surely if it is chasing
> things like QNX then that would be vital - it's a different market with more
> diversity of architectures.
>
> I don't think the current perceived size of x86/ARM markets will protect it
> as effectively as a diversity of targets would. Remember how ubiquitous
> SPARC, VAX, 68K were at one time; if you were stranded there, you don't
> exist now.


Again: *it's an experimental research and educational project*.

It is not a replacement for NetBSD. If you want lots of platforms,
then NetBSD still exists.

And it *is* portable and it runs on 2 totally dissimilar CPU
architectures, one CISC, one RISC.

It is an attempt to demonstrate that it is possible to build a true
microkernel Unix.

There are or have been compromised hybrid microkernel Unices -- DEC
OSF/1, Mac OS X, arguably MkLinux, and various other academic projects
that were never released or deployed publicly.

Minix 3 is different: it's true FOSS and the team are soliciting
community involvement.

But while it's still an incomplete project that is in development,
they're only targeting the 2 main arches which comprise about 99.9% of
the modern computer market.




-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 22 10:26:14 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:26:14 +0100
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Pontus Pihlgren
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 5:07 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 09:28:53AM -0600, Jay West wrote:
> I had cause over the weekend to take apart my 8E dual-bay system (the
> TU10/TM11 is being traded off). I remembered there was some discussion a 
> few
> weeks ago about the mid-sized dec cabinets with the sloped top front, so
> figured I'd post a pic.

Was there a conclusion to the modelnumber of the rack itself. The tall
ones are H960. Are the shorter ones H965 ?

> Picture at :
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/24884152340/in/dateposted/

Nice pictures, thank you.

/P

---------
Really nice picture, never seen before. Very cool.
Wished this was in The Netherlands ...

- Henk 


From mazzinia at tin.it  Mon Feb 22 10:36:15 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:36:15 +0100
Subject: R: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>

Not to intrude, but apple could also have gone with the serious power cpu,
thus not "needing" to move to x86. As long as there's enough of a push, sw
houses release versions for a different architecture... and power is hardly
a dead end.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Mark J. Blair
Inviato: luned? 22 febbraio 2016 17:04
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
development machine


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 07:54, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> 
> I don't think the current perceived size of x86/ARM markets will protect
it as effectively as a diversity of targets would. Remember how ubiquitous
SPARC, VAX, 68K were at one time; if you were stranded there, you don't
exist now.

As a case in point, look at apple switching from 68k to PowerPC for their
desktop systems, then again from PowerPC to x86. With overlapping emulation
in both cases, even. Both of those transitions were critical for their
survival and growth.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 22 10:41:11 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:41:11 -0500
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CB3A27.6040509@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-22 11:17 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 22 February 2016 at 16:54, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> Portability was a fundamental free software tenet. It has technical benefits
>> and it would make the project more relevant. The original Minix was far more
>> portable.
>>
>> If it can't adapt to what comes after x86 and ARM in whatever markets(?) it
>> is pursuing then it will be in danger of extinction. Surely if it is chasing
>> things like QNX then that would be vital - it's a different market with more
>> diversity of architectures.
>>
>> I don't think the current perceived size of x86/ARM markets will protect it
>> as effectively as a diversity of targets would. Remember how ubiquitous
>> SPARC, VAX, 68K were at one time; if you were stranded there, you don't
>> exist now.
>
>
> Again: *it's an experimental research and educational project*.

There were more than a few experimental operating systems on SPARC. 
Where are they now? :-)


>
> It is not a replacement for NetBSD. If you want lots of platforms,
> then NetBSD still exists.
> ...
> But while it's still an incomplete project that is in development,
> they're only targeting the 2 main arches which comprise about 99.9% of
> the modern computer market.

*Today's* "modern computer market."

Are they doing _that_ or are they going after QNX? Or both? #confused


--Toby



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 10:58:18 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:58:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Portability was a fundamental free software tenet.

Is.  Was, perhaps, even, in the non-OS space.  But in the OS space, I
think every open-source OS was originally done on some very small
number of architectures.  Unix was done on the PDP-11 (something else
before that, I think, but I forget what, and I think it was with the
move to the -11 that it became portable enough to be ported instead of
rewritten).  BSD was done on the VAX and Tahoe.  The Jolitzs' work,
Linus's work, i386.  All of them moved beyond those initial machines,
yes, and that was essential to their success.  But they had to start
somewhere.

Seeing Minix 3 on x86 and ARM is good.  Unless it wants to wither when
the world moves beyond x86 and ARM, it will need to be done with enough
portability in mind to make porting it easy, yes, but it is hardly a
failing that it isn't ported yet.  (Unless it's been around a lot
longer than this thread makes it sound.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 11:07:41 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:07:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I suspect even what X11 calls pseudocolor ([...]) may not be
> supported these days.

Even X doesn't really support it these days.  I ran into an issue with
that and contacted an X Consortium person I knew from back in the day
when the X Consortium was a thing and was told that X.org (which is
apparently the keeper of the X flame now) doesn't really support what I
wanted; IIRC, not really anything but TrueColor/DirectColor.

Indeed, some years back, when I was working on smartphone development
(the phone never came to market, alas), it had an emulator - which
blindly assumed not only that it was on a TrueColor visual, but that
the RGB masks were exactly what it expected!  (The point is not that
client authors can be sloppy - that's always been true - but that
they've gotten away with such sloppiness.)

Sic transit gloria X11.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
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/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 22 11:19:00 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:19:00 -0500
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56CB4304.7060603@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-22 11:58 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> Portability was a fundamental free software tenet.
>
> Is.

Yes, a typo. :)

 > Was, perhaps, even, in the non-OS space.  But in the OS space, I
> think every open-source OS was originally done on some very small
> number of architectures.  Unix was done on the PDP-11 (something else
> before that, I think, but I forget what, and I think it was with the
> move to the -11 that it became portable enough to be ported instead of
> rewritten).  BSD was done on the VAX and Tahoe.  The Jolitzs' work,
> Linus's work, i386.  All of them moved beyond those initial machines,
> yes, and that was essential to their success.  But they had to start
> somewhere.

Unix's portability (gained when it was rewritten in C) was as much as 
anything else key to its "success," but Liam's point is well taken that 
"avoiding success at all costs" can be quite fruitful too, from the pov 
of research freedom. (Naturally I am referencing Haskell here :)

>
> Seeing Minix 3 on x86 and ARM is good.  Unless it wants to wither when
> the world moves beyond x86 and ARM, it will need to be done with enough
> portability in mind to make porting it easy, yes, but it is hardly a
> failing that it isn't ported yet.

Arguably, _only_ porting can fully reveal design issues that might 
impede porting. But if as Liam says their goals are met fully on x86 and 
ARM then I won't argue :)

--Toby

 > (Unless it's been around a lot
> longer than this thread makes it sound.)
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Feb 22 11:30:55 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:30:55 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:20:05 -0600"
 <003301d16d84$82429f90$86c7deb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <01PWZECSW1T600BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PWZSPH9JJ600BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

Jay wrote:

> Peter wrote...
> ------------------
> It is supposed to be 5 VUPS so it should be about 5 times as fast as an
> 11/780.
> I guess whether this is fast enough depends on what you are going to be
> doing.
> ------------------
> I was looking just for something to get me exposed to VMS :)
>

It should be grand for terminal access to play around with VMS.  Using it to
connect to a DECwindows/X Windows display on another machine might be a bit
sluggish.

>
> And...
> ----------
> If you haven't already removed the battery, I'd suggest doing that as soon
> as possible.
> ----------
> Wasn't aware it had that potential issue, I've never opened it up. "Note to
> self" made, will check tonight. Thanks!!
>

Looks like you might be ok after all - I've managed to dig out a model 40 and
it has a DALLAS chip instead of a battery.  Many of the earlier models had a
NiCd battery.  Sorry for any unnecessary panic caused.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From auringer at tds.net  Mon Feb 22 12:01:38 2016
From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:01:38 -0600
Subject: HYPERchannel users?
Message-ID: <56CB4D02.7080801@tds.net>

Hi All,

Does anyone still play around with HYPERchannel equipment? I have a 
MultiBus I to HYPERchannel adapter that could use a new home. It is in a 
Network Systems Corporation box with cables and manual. The model is 
PIx50. It is in Madison WI (53714).

For more information about HYPERchannel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HYPERchannel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Systems_Corporation

-Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 22 12:12:17 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:12:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <20160222181217.875D218C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > I hope I am making my point - I am suggesting that everyone stop
    > quoting and repeating the DEC wiki's on the web. They all need to be
    > updated to reflect this subtle difference.

The thing is that there never was a physical PDP-11/10 of the first type, it
was just marketing plans; whereas there were/are still many physical -11/10's
of the second type.

Yes, detailed histories might (and many do) indicate that the name
"PDP-11/10" was originally allocated to what later became the 11/15, but to
the extent that one allocates the name "-11/10" to anything, it should, by
virtue of the point above, be to the KD11-B machine.

	Noel

From seefriek at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 12:35:10 2016
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:35:10 -0500
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjycf=BP-pnZewg+d427CDagcLTCwmspo86V9kTJ-r+X5A@mail.gmail.com>

On 2016-02-22 11:58 AM, Mouse wrote:
> Unix was done on the PDP-11 (something else
> before that, I think, but I forget what, and I think it was with the
> move to the -11 that it became portable enough to be ported instead of
> rewritten).

PDP-7, though it was more of a "reimplementation" than a port.  The
PDP-11 code became (by v6 or so) portable enough that it was
subsequently made to run on the (sorta IBM 360-ish) Interdata 7/32 &
8/32, as well as VM/370, in the late 70s.

KJ

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 12:41:46 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:41:46 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222181217.875D218C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160222181217.875D218C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufae-4zg7zjeaPuoQDS7QgZoTs-7OLWvtrELru+JF19Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Bill Degnan
>
>     > I hope I am making my point - I am suggesting that everyone stop
>     > quoting and repeating the DEC wiki's on the web. They all need to be
>     > updated to reflect this subtle difference.
>
> The thing is that there never was a physical PDP-11/10 of the first type,
> it
> was just marketing plans; whereas there were/are still many physical
> -11/10's
> of the second type.
>
> Yes, detailed histories might (and many do) indicate that the name
> "PDP-11/10" was originally allocated to what later became the 11/15, but to
> the extent that one allocates the name "-11/10" to anything, it should, by
> virtue of the point above, be to the KD11-B machine.
>
>         Noel
>

For my personal knowledge and understanding, what detailed histories are
these that you refer to that say there was never a single KA11 11/10 sold,
not one installed?  Most of what I have read about this time has been
anecdotal, not old-fashioned sales figures or marketing reports.  I have
checked all of the sources that I have for more details, not much found to
confirm or refute this.  I have the 1969 Keydata industry guide, but I'd
need the 1970 version that would be the ideal source if anyone has it, for
sales/prices/etc.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From seefriek at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 12:46:18 2016
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:46:18 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjxp3W=6UGF_AcEhNm1a=BMz0E5U+hKX0+kdK1j5joBFaw@mail.gmail.com>

From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro at linux-mips.org>
> I've only ever heard of and saw a single kind of monochrome graphics
> hardware for x86 PCs and that was the Hercules Graphics Card (HGC) and its
> clones, and these were already gone by early to mid 1990s.

The Wyse 700 and Bell Tech Blit were both ISA bus mono video cards.
There were others (maybe Radius...Metheus as well?).

P.S. - Sorry if I included the whole digest in my previous reply.  Long day.

KJ

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 12:48:58 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:48:58 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <d8f38.4f043a95.43fcb21a@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 6:33:13 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
billdegnan at gmail.com writes:

>
>
>
> The PDP-11/10 was the second processor  made in  the _PDP-11_
> (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11)   series.
> The  PDP-11/05 CPU was identical to the PDP-11/10  (KA11-B). The only
> difference  between the PDP-11/05 and the  PDP-11/10 was that the 
PDP-11/05
> was
> made for OEM,  while  the PDP-11/10 was for end-users.
> sort of  like    the  8 m and 8  f   were same but one oem one end  user
> Ed# at  _www.smecc.org_  (http://www.smecc.org)
>
>
>
>
The second 11/10  obviously.  Not the 1st.  The first 11/10 was a KA11

I hope I  am making my point - I am suggesting that everyone stop quoting
and  repeating the DEC wiki's on the web.  They all need to be updated  to
reflect this subtle difference.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web:  vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg  <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg  <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio  <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

Bill....  read  carefully - -   I  was   talking about the  second  one 
that  paired  with the  11/05
and  using it as a comparison  in   nomenclature like  they  did   with the 
 pdp-8   m  or   f  
to show  you  could have same  things  but   different  name depending if  
for customer or   oem.
or that is  what I was  trying to  do anyway.   ---Ed#   _www.smecc.org_ 
(http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 22 12:50:10 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:50:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
References: <cddc9.d4edf4d.43fc1ac5@aol.com>
 <20160222081209.GA14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000101d16d4a$9b170680$d1451380$@gmail.com>
 <20160222082651.GB14264@Update.UU.SE>
 <000501d16d4e$93bd52f0$bb37f8d0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221034400.7502@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> I wonder how long it took them to "figure it out"?  I seems that the
> family-plan dates to April 1969.

When everybody realized and accepted that there would be more than one 
sub-model, and decided that it might be handy to be able to tell them 
apart.  There may have been some holdouts in some departments, such as 
silk-screening the panels.


By analogy, the phrase "single density" didn't originally exist.
After "DOUBLE-density" was developed, THEN "single density" needed a name.
Although just sticking with "FM" and "MFM" would have been a lot better!
(Although I guess that it was inevitable that marketing would invent "HD", 
instead of "double data transfer rate MFM".)

There were even a few companies that freely intermingled HEADS V density!
Intertec/Superbrain decided to call their 5.25" 40 track DSDD, "QUAD 
density", because it was twice the capacity of the 40 track SSDD!  Then, 
when they added an 80 track DSDD, they caalled that "SUPER density", 
abbreviated "SD"!  So, if you encounter an alien disk labelled "SD", it 
might be 720K/800K, not 100K.


Similarly, if you were to search ancient archives, the phrase "World War 
TWO" was first used BEFORE there was any mention of "World War ONE".
It wan't until a second happened, or was expected, before anybody had any 
reason to declare the "Great war"/"World War" to be "nuber ONE".


So, the use of any sort of "first" name doesn't occur until "second" is 
expected.



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 22 12:50:44 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:50:44 -0600
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>

Henk & Pontus wrote...
------------
Was there a conclusion to the modelnumber of the rack itself. The tall ones
are H960. Are the shorter ones H965 ?
------------
Some confusion I guess.

Looking here (document pages 8-5 and 8-6, which is file pages 380-381):
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/Small_Computer_Han
dbook_1973.pdf

It lists the standard H960, and an optional shorter cabinet as the "H967".
However... I am not sure that the cabinet pictured as the H967 is what I
have (in the picture link below). What I have - there is that sloped top
front, AND it seems a fan was intended (and is) mounted to the bottom of the
back door. The H967 pictures in the manual above show no sloped top front,
and a big fan assembly on the floor of the rack.

But... in that same SCH'73 manual, it DOES show the rack I have in various
pictures (with no mention).

I have never heard/seen mention of a H965. Perhaps that's what I have. Or
perhaps the H967 is what I have, and there were just options to order with
or without sloped front plate or fan assembly? Also interesting, the cable
trays that fit in the cutout in the bottom of the rack - in mine they are
mesh. In the H960's I have seen, they were all solid sheet metal. Perhaps
that floor mounted fan was an option my racks didn't get... Dunno....

J

Below link included for reference...
> Picture at :
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/24884152340/in/dateposted/



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 12:52:52 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:52:52 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <d9101.1f25ff98.43fcb303@aol.com>



In a message dated 2/22/2016 11:50:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cisin at xenosoft.com writes:

On Mon,  22 Feb 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:
> I wonder how long it took them to  "figure it out"?  I seems that the
> family-plan dates to April  1969.

When everybody realized and accepted that there would be more  than one 
sub-model, and decided that it might be handy to be able to tell  them 
apart.  There may have been some holdouts in some departments,  such as 
silk-screening the panels.


By analogy, the phrase  "single density" didn't originally exist.
After "DOUBLE-density" was  developed, THEN "single density" needed a name.
Although just sticking with  "FM" and "MFM" would have been a lot better!
(Although I guess that it was  inevitable that marketing would invent "HD", 
instead of "double data  transfer rate MFM".)

There were even a few companies that freely  intermingled HEADS V density!
Intertec/Superbrain decided to call their  5.25" 40 track DSDD, "QUAD 
density", because it was twice the capacity of  the 40 track SSDD!  Then, 
when they added an 80 track DSDD, they  caalled that "SUPER density", 
abbreviated "SD"!  So, if you encounter  an alien disk labelled "SD", it 
might be 720K/800K, not  100K.


Similarly, if you were to search ancient archives, the phrase  "World War 
TWO" was first used BEFORE there was any mention of "World War  ONE".
It wan't until a second happened, or was expected, before anybody had  any 
reason to declare the "Great war"/"World War" to be "nuber  ONE".


So, the use of any sort of "first" name doesn't occur until  "second" is 
expected.



Or  WW1  was also referred to as the "war to end all wars"
 
 
some  good   name sequence  comparisons   here
 
Ed#



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 22 13:01:39 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:01:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <d9101.1f25ff98.43fcb303@aol.com>
References: <d9101.1f25ff98.43fcb303@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221059080.7502@shell.lmi.net>

> > reason to declare the "Great war"/"World War" to be "number  ONE".
> > So, the use of any sort of "first" name doesn't occur until  "second" 
> > is expected.
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> Or  WW1  was also referred to as the "war to end all wars"

It was certainly INCONCEIVABLE that anybody could be stupid enough to have 
ANOTHER one!
If we would have let Nikita go to Disneyland, then possibility of WW3 
would have been less.


> some  good   name sequence  comparisons   here
Where?





From oltmansg at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 13:07:13 2016
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:07:13 -0600
Subject: R: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
 <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <74722A45-6D8D-4F40-A3D1-CC8E8EC8541A@gmail.com>



> On Feb 22, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
> 
> Not to intrude, but apple could also have gone with the serious power cpu,
> thus not "needing" to move to x86. As long as there's enough of a push, sw
> houses release versions for a different architecture... and power is hardly a dead end.
> 
Iirc ditching Power in favor of x86 had a lot less to do with the computing power but more to do with:  A. The mobile versions of Intel processors being available in both more powerful and also lower power for laptops,  and B. Being able to leverage off of the x86 desktop/laptop chipset available to drive down costs. 

Clearly Power is doing quite well in embedded and portable solutions today. 

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 13:08:32 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:08:32 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <d987c.7b721078.43fcb6b0@aol.com>


 
Then  there is  this  information.....

PDP-11/15
 

 (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/15#column-one)  
(http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/15#searchInput) 
 

This is the OEM version of the _PDP-11/20_ 
(http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/20) .


From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 22 13:23:50 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:23:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:

> > I suspect even what X11 calls pseudocolor ([...]) may not be
> > supported these days.
> 
> Even X doesn't really support it these days.  I ran into an issue with
> that and contacted an X Consortium person I knew from back in the day
> when the X Consortium was a thing and was told that X.org (which is
> apparently the keeper of the X flame now) doesn't really support what I
> wanted; IIRC, not really anything but TrueColor/DirectColor.

 Huh?  Good to know actually as I meant to upgrade X11 sometime across my 
DECstations to something which is not outrageously obsolete and as you 
probably realise that means quite an exotic set of graphics adapters.  Of 
these only Bt463-based SFB+ options fall in the as you say "supported" 
DirectColor category, and these are difficult to work with on some 
DECstations due to (regrettably unnecessary) firmware limitations, and 
impossible even on the original 5000/200 due to its addressing 
constraints.

> Sic transit gloria X11.

 Oh well...  Thanks for the warning!

  Maciej

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 13:27:07 2016
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:27:07 -0400
Subject: R: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <74722A45-6D8D-4F40-A3D1-CC8E8EC8541A@gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
 <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
 <74722A45-6D8D-4F40-A3D1-CC8E8EC8541A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CB610B.50306@gmail.com>

On 2016-02-22 3:07 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
>
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
>>
>> Not to intrude, but apple could also have gone with the serious power cpu,
>> thus not "needing" to move to x86. As long as there's enough of a push, sw
>> houses release versions for a different architecture... and power is hardly a dead end.
>>
> Iirc ditching Power in favor of x86 had a lot less to do with the computing power but more to do with:  A. The mobile versions of Intel processors being available in both more powerful and also lower power for laptops,  and B. Being able to leverage off of the x86 desktop/laptop chipset available to drive down costs.
>
> Clearly Power is doing quite well in embedded and portable solutions today.
...Not to mention AIX and IBMi systems.   I would agree that laptops 
where probably the biggest reason for the swing as they where already 
seriously lagging behind and no suitable replacement in sight on the 
PowerPC side, but there was also little chance of a follow to the G5 
that would be suitable for Apples needs.  The G5 is a stripped down 
POWER 4 processor that IBM also used in some low end systems aimed at 
the technical workstation market, that was already rapidly moving 
towards the lower cost Intel platforms.  When POWER 5 came along there 
where no models aimed at this market anymore.

Paul.

From useddec at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 13:37:46 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:37:46 -0600
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jay,


It's a H967. Dec did publish a cabinet and accessories catalog, but I don't
have one handy. It might be in various site prep guideline books also.

Maybe on bitsavers?

Thanks, Paul


On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Henk & Pontus wrote...
> ------------
> Was there a conclusion to the modelnumber of the rack itself. The tall ones
> are H960. Are the shorter ones H965 ?
> ------------
> Some confusion I guess.
>
> Looking here (document pages 8-5 and 8-6, which is file pages 380-381):
>
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/Small_Computer_Han
> dbook_1973.pdf
>
> It lists the standard H960, and an optional shorter cabinet as the "H967".
> However... I am not sure that the cabinet pictured as the H967 is what I
> have (in the picture link below). What I have - there is that sloped top
> front, AND it seems a fan was intended (and is) mounted to the bottom of
> the
> back door. The H967 pictures in the manual above show no sloped top front,
> and a big fan assembly on the floor of the rack.
>
> But... in that same SCH'73 manual, it DOES show the rack I have in various
> pictures (with no mention).
>
> I have never heard/seen mention of a H965. Perhaps that's what I have. Or
> perhaps the H967 is what I have, and there were just options to order with
> or without sloped front plate or fan assembly? Also interesting, the cable
> trays that fit in the cutout in the bottom of the rack - in mine they are
> mesh. In the H960's I have seen, they were all solid sheet metal. Perhaps
> that floor mounted fan was an option my racks didn't get... Dunno....
>
> J
>
> Below link included for reference...
> > Picture at :
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/24884152340/in/dateposted/
>
>
>

From lists at loomcom.com  Mon Feb 22 14:04:45 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:04:45 -0600
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
Message-ID: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com>

Here's an interesting tid-bit.

I just got off the phone with the AT&T corporate archives, where I had
hoped to find schematics and internals documentation for the AT&T 3B2.
They do have it, but unfortunately they will not give access to any
of it because they still consider the 3B2 to be proprietary
information.

I'm disappointed, obviously, but not all that surprised. 25 years is
not a long time for a company like AT&T, and I understand the 5ESS
system still runs a 3B20 emualtor. They may even still have support
contracts for 3B2 installations, I'm not sure.

Anyway, all that aside, will soon have access to a couple of 3B2/310s,
so I hope to continue reverse engineering the hardware directly.

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
web at loomcom.com

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Feb 22 14:17:04 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:17:04 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
Message-ID: <db89a.1e3e530d.43fcc6c0@aol.com>

how does the mac  8  bell computer I have  tie in   with  ess?  thx  Ed#  
_www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 2/22/2016 1:04:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
lists at loomcom.com writes:

Here's  an interesting tid-bit.

I just got off the phone with the AT&T  corporate archives, where I had
hoped to find schematics and internals  documentation for the AT&T 3B2.
They do have it, but unfortunately they  will not give access to any
of it because they still consider the 3B2 to be  proprietary
information.

I'm disappointed, obviously, but not all  that surprised. 25 years is
not a long time for a company like AT&T,  and I understand the 5ESS
system still runs a 3B20 emualtor. They may even  still have support
contracts for 3B2 installations, I'm not  sure.

Anyway, all that aside, will soon have access to a couple of  3B2/310s,
so I hope to continue reverse engineering the hardware  directly.

-Seth
-- 
Seth  Morabito
web at loomcom.com


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Feb 22 14:21:40 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:21:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> I suspect even what X11 calls pseudocolor ([...]) may not be
>>> supported these days.  [in Web browsers]
>> Even X doesn't really support it these days.  [...]
> Huh?  Good to know [...]

Well, obviously, if it really matters to you you should look into it
yourself; what I wrote was based on wetware memory from years ago, and
could be inaccurate for any of many reasons, most of which I'm sure you
can imagine as well as I.

But, yes, consider it a warning to look into it before just assuming
that the support will (a) be there and (b) be non-bitrotted.  I trust
my memory enough to be fairly sure that _something_ of the sort
happened, even if I've got some details wrong.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 22 14:42:21 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:42:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <20160222204221.7665D18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    >> Yes, detailed histories might (and many do) indicate that the name
    >> "PDP-11/10" was originally allocated to what later became the 11/15

    > what detailed histories are these that you refer to that say there was
    > never a single KA11 11/10 sold, not one installed? 

I didn't say that they said "there was never a single KA11 11/10 sold, not
one installed".

So I just spent an hour looking through all the standard DEC histories (e.g.
Bell, Mudge, McNamara, "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems
Design", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) and I was unable to find _anything_ about
either the 'first' -11/10; or even the -11/15, for that matter! So I don't
know where I saw the mention of the 'first' -11/10 being what later became
the 11/15.

I _did_ find a mention of the 'first' -11/10 in the 1970 "PDP-11 Handbook"
(pg. 1), with the specs as in the 1969 price list. Unlike the -11/15, which
did have differences in the CPU itself, it seems that the 'first' -11/10
differed from the -11/20 only in the memory that came with it - i.e. the CPU
was the identical KA11 as in the -11/20.

So, do you know of any engineering document or photograph of one of those
'first' -11/10's? My bet is that there probably are none - because the
machine likely never existed. (Although DEC may have sold a few, what was
shipped was probably an -11/20 - with a front panel reading 'PDP-11', which
may be why the earliest -11/20's said that - with the configuration listed
for the 'first' -11/10.)

To repeat: To the extent that one allocates the name "-11/10" to anything, it
should, by virtue of the existence of _many actual physical instances_,
_marked as such_, be to the KD11-B machine.

	Noel

PS: Amusing factoid: I have a PDP-11/20 price list from April 1, 1972 which
lists a "PDP-11/21"! (Versions are -CA, -CB, -CE, -CF.) It's repeated
multiple places throughout the list, which leads me to believe it's not a
typo.) No idea what that was all about.

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 15:06:05 2016
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:06:05 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222204221.7665D18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160222204221.7665D18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <014c01d16db4$d8ac81e0$8a0585a0$@gmail.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 3:42 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
differences?? OEM?

PS: Amusing factoid: I have a PDP-11/20 price list from April 1, 1972 which
lists a "PDP-11/21"! (Versions are -CA, -CB, -CE, -CF.) It's repeated
multiple places throughout the list, which leads me to believe it's not a
typo.) No idea what that was all about.

-----

See:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/Options
_and_Modules_List_197312.pdf

pp. 7-8.  Looks like a bunch of configurations of the 11/20.

-----


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 16:01:11 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:01:11 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <20160222204221.7665D18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160222204221.7665D18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20160222220110.GD7961@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:42:21PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> 
> So, do you know of any engineering document or photograph of one of those
> 'first' -11/10's? My bet is that there probably are none - because the
> machine likely never existed. (Although DEC may have sold a few, what was
> shipped was probably an -11/20 - with a front panel reading 'PDP-11', which
> may be why the earliest -11/20's said that - with the configuration listed
> for the 'first' -11/10.)
> 

This is purely speculation:

Notice that the 1969 price list statest that a PDP-11/20 is a 
_prerequisite_ for the PDP-11/10. Also notice that the description 
doesn't include a teletype _or_ programmers console.

With that and the low memory specs in mind, could it be that the 
_original_ 11/10 was intended as an automation machine for installation 
in some system with a specific task and that you were supposed to use 
the prerequisite 11/20 as a development system?

So, if you want to find one, you should look in some contemporary 
industrial equipment.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Feb 22 16:11:56 2016
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:11:56 +0100
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20160222221156.GE7961@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:50:44PM -0600, Jay West wrote:
> 
> I have never heard/seen mention of a H965.

I'm not sure where I got it from. Now I'm not so sure I've seen it 
anywhere.

Oh well, It would be nice to know what to call the different DEC racks. 
There are so many in different shapes and sizes.

/P

From steven at malikoff.com  Mon Feb 22 16:46:56 2016
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:46:56 +1000
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
 <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Paul said:
> It's a H967. Dec did publish a cabinet and accessories catalog, but I don't
> have one handy. It might be in various site prep guideline books also.

Here's a page I've just scanned from a 1978 DEC sales catalog showing
the H960, H967 etc.:
http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_cabinets.jpg

Steve.


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 22 16:53:07 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:53:07 -0800
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2016 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
> Here's an interesting tid-bit.
>
> I just got off the phone with the AT&T corporate archives, where I
> had hoped to find schematics and internals documentation for the AT&T
> 3B2. They do have it, but unfortunately they will not give access to
> any of it because they still consider the 3B2 to be proprietary
> information.

Speaking of AT&T tidbits, does anyone here collect the larger 3B 
systems?  That is, the 3B20/21/4000?

Just curious,
Chuck


From steven at malikoff.com  Mon Feb 22 16:55:00 2016
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:55:00 +1000
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
 <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <64ad254a7d3ae824b3628cce1da33e7a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>


> Here's a page I've just scanned from a 1978 DEC sales catalog showing
> the H960, H967 etc.:
> http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_cabinets.jpg

Also scanned the follow-on pages from the catalog:
http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/DEC_cabinets2.jpg

HTH,

Steve.





From dave at 661.org  Mon Feb 22 17:17:47 2016
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:17:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: seeking Briel micro-altair logo
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602222313370.9522@nyx.feedle.net>


Does anyone here have the vector artwork for the Briel Micro-Altair?  As 
shipped, these computers have a sticker on the front for the logo.  I 
recently discovered that the local hackerspace has a laser cutter that can 
also blacken[1] metal plate.  I would like to apply a better-looking logo 
that way.


[1] The process, I gather, appears to involve applying a sheet containing 
resin or something akin to powder coat which is then melted by the laser 
and sticks to the metal substrate.




-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 22 17:42:55 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:42:55 -0600
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <64ad254a7d3ae824b3628cce1da33e7a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
 <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <64ad254a7d3ae824b3628cce1da33e7a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <000001d16dca$c0f220d0$42d66270$@classiccmp.org>

Steven... thanks a ton! I think you've solved the mystery.

What was in the documents you scanned is clearly my rack... so it's definitely an H967.

But if you look at the handbook link I posted earlier, it ALSO lists an H967, which is clearly different than mine and the document you scanned (ie. Fan sits in center of cabinet pointed downward with a cowling, and the top of the rack is flat, not sloped).

So it would appear that over time there were two very similar, but different racks - both designated H967.

Thanks!

J



From bryan at bceassociates.com  Mon Feb 22 05:05:04 2016
From: bryan at bceassociates.com (Bryan Everly)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:05:04 -0500
Subject: Vaxstation 3100 - I have console access
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212223100.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CAKTdruYgg1HKQDnwUuQG6Fv3Jhj=NUhwqwOK4yuf987oP-+P0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWTSAT5SN800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruY2W1-y-AbLLZrcfweZFPVLEnB1fqbJ3FdWg+J5F=U5hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PWU31THE8K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAKTdruanzt6x0bP0f+jZLW=-R=G7_zYCZWwrSvtXfZWs8Jcutw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160218185824.GN2360@lug-owl.de> <20160218212717.GO2360@lug-owl.de>
 <20160220122919.GP2360@lug-owl.de>
 <CABGJBuf4gcPpBze6D=FAjUvvtawLxxQtv97-KkFYEfCz-9LKBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602200925040.576@discord.bogons>
 <5953331678323477627@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602201659350.576@discord.bogons>
 <1229350600928094412@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212223100.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <2694490788216382262@unknownmsgid>

Lol...

Thanks,
Bryan

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 12:24 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2016, Bryan Everly wrote:
>>
>> I was planning on installing OpenBSD on this box from a floppy image
>> however I can just swap the whole board and do a net boot of the
>> installer.
>
> I can see why you want one but I wonder what motivated Digital to decide
> whether to install a floppy or not.  I am quite certain that they had
> no motive to help us install OpenBSD.
>
> --
>  Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
>  Athabasca University                   : tuques we wear, our
>  Athabasca, Alberta Canada               : heads are naked!"
>  ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 22 13:18:47 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:18:47 +0000
Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8QEM8zvpz-A+ceqhYQ9L-Yh=COZ2ZsLV3rTKjRkJqiiBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8QEM8zvpz-A+ceqhYQ9L-Yh=COZ2ZsLV3rTKjRkJqiiBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB072246B66E66EDF820F8EF20A3A30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

You could use something like an Arduino to buffer
either. It could take the 9600 from the terminal and
retransmit it at 110. It would be slow when updating
data to the terminal but it should be able to buffer human
input at the terminal.
That way, all of the current loop would be at 110 baud.
The terminal could then be either current loop or RS232.
It doesn't sound like too complicated a job.
Dwight

________________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 7:40 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A

Hi,

Just looking for suggestions on how best to setup my PDP-8A so that it can
use either a VT-52 (current loop version) or an ASR-33.

One idea I have is a multi-pole switch to change the baud rate from 110 to
9600 and to also switch the xmit and rcv current loops.

Does anyone out there have any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Marc

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 17:12:23 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:12:23 -0500
Subject: VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 SMTP Question
Message-ID: <CABGJBudpzxPmXMiLNPL-cV--1+mb0QS7aLZdbqZ0OdFz96JhQg@mail.gmail.com>

I have been working to get my MicroVAX 3100 communicating with TCPIP, and I
got pretty far but I ran into a little snag.   I don't have it on right
now, but anyone  wanted to connect for fun it's available from
microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net, just give me a few minutes to fire it up.


I can telnet in/out and I can send SMTP messages, but I cannot yet receive
them (reply to).  The issue is with the format of the email address.

I was wondering if I must send emails from my VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 as
such:

MAIL> MAIL
To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.com"

etc..

Is there a way instead to send like this:

MAIL> MAIL
To: bill at myemail.com"

Question #2

I'd like to be able to send messages to my MicroVAX (reply to messages).
At present if I try to send a message to SYSTEM at microvax3100@
vintagecomputer.net I get a rejection from the POSTMASTER like this:

Bad address -- <SYSTEM>
Error --
    %MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification ':'

-------------

I have been reading up and I have narrowed the issue down to the
differences between DEC mail format and "modern UNIX".  I don't believe
anything is being blocked.  I am sure if I sent an email from a VAX to my
VAX it would work just fine.  I am also guessing there is a translation
gateway that I need to set as part of the boot up process, and that this is
a DECnet issue, not a Multinet issue.   I was playing around with
*@MULTINET:MR_CONFIGURE
*but I am unsure if that's the correct process, or how to store this so
it's permanently set.

http://crpppc19.epfl.ch/vms/multinet/html/admin_guide/Ch08.htm#E15E104

Anyone have any tips?  I don't want to upgrade the system unless I have to.

If I find the answer on my own I will post it here.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 06:17:53 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 07:17:53 -0500
Subject: Fleet System 2+ with the Yello Stickers on the disks!
Message-ID: <56CAFC71.8020005@gmail.com>

I have the regular Fleet System 2 bur I need a copy of Fleet System 2+
instead of blur the stickers are yellow there a 3 disks. I am hedding to
the dr and I will post the manual I got in the unopened box. so pics
coming up later today does anyone have a copy of the 3 Fleet System
Sisks they could email .e I have many things to trade I will post that
stuff later today . God Bless Yall!

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 11:55:04 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:55:04 -0500
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
Message-ID: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>

Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
if so please enplane how it is done also I have MANY hard to find games
if someonr would like to email the Fleet System 2+ I would be happy to
trade them a game for it!

Thank you all for all the great help you have given me!

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 22 17:58:01 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:58:01 -0600
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>


I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
the LA is great for what I work on).

However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them. As much as I really WANT the 4952
to be "it", it isn't - for me. Mainly because I have found that having a
unfolding or removable (or permanently in the usual spot) keyboard takes up
far too much bench space - or is unusable when standing the unit upright
(very often it was convenient to set the LA on the floor and on the models I
use - the keyboard and screen face straight up).

The ones I use these days are a Spectron D101 or D101X (I have them both).
See http://ebay.com/itm/262261970901

The one I used for work projects - don't own - and may buy soon... is a
Spectron D2000 which for some reason is labeled in this auction as a
"Telenex AR Datascope 2000". See http://ebay.com/itm/301859511695

Since either of these have a front panel that is "on the front" and doesn't
stick out at all... they seem to work better real-estate-wise sitting on the
bench facing towards me, or sitting on the ground on the end -
screen/keyboard facing up - so they are more accessible when working on a
system.

Just my 2 millidollars worth...

J






From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 18:12:00 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:12:00 -0500
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudyeuDDmF4QwGxbShrC5FFF2ga8pKjk1fGzN6D1VfkWdQ@mail.gmail.com>

D64 editor and wcopy+

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Feb 22, 2016 6:55 PM, "Mike" <tulsamike3434 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
> if so please enplane how it is done also I have MANY hard to find games
> if someonr would like to email the Fleet System 2+ I would be happy to
> trade them a game for it!
>
> Thank you all for all the great help you have given me!
>

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 18:12:44 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:12:44 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMiQGfpU=DWyXvM+_cM_3VccMJCnh0LYVWNEJv8YL5KQg@mail.gmail.com>

Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
tweaked tu58em?

Mike
On Feb 23, 2016 4:28 AM, "Mark J. Blair" <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 22, 2016, at 02:50, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > The pinouts are the same, the printset of course gives details of the
> latter. It's
> > RS232 levels, TxD, RxD, Ground, and it is 38400 baud.
>
> I didn't get around to examining the wiring in my VAX last night, but I
> determined the wiring from the TU58 manual, anyway.
>
> When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I
> ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically
> avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice,
> reliable 3.5" floppy drive! ;)
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Mon Feb 22 18:17:58 2016
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:17:58 +1000
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <000001d16dca$c0f220d0$42d66270$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
 <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <64ad254a7d3ae824b3628cce1da33e7a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <000001d16dca$c0f220d0$42d66270$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20849ba3ec992bda0facd5295ff2cb49.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

> Steven... thanks a ton! I think you've solved the mystery.
>
> What was in the documents you scanned is clearly my rack... so it's definitely an H967.
>
> But if you look at the handbook link I posted earlier, it ALSO lists an H967, which is clearly different than mine and the document you scanned (ie. Fan sits in center of cabinet pointed downward with a cowling, and the top of the rack is flat, not sloped).
>
> So it would appear that over time there were two very similar, but different racks - both designated H967.
>
> Thanks!
>
> J

No worries Jay, I think you're right about the H967 variations between the handbook and the sales catalog. Back then
they didn't put 'Subject to change without notice' on everything, it was a rapidly evolving industry and I guess
that sort of thing was just expected.

By the way the 1978 DEC Sales Catalog I scanned is a fabulous item, I snagged it off eBay last year. If I had been
stranded on a desert island and needed to mail order DEC gear back then, this is the doc I would want.
I'm slowly scanning the whole catalog (each page at 600 dpi) which I will turn into a PDF for everyone to have. I've
been at it for a while and I'm about halfway through.

Steve.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 22 18:41:02 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:41:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
> if so please enplane how it is done

You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card to a 
Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the 
commodore disk on a PC.


From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 22 19:09:35 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 01:09:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:

> Well, obviously, if it really matters to you you should look into it
> yourself; what I wrote was based on wetware memory from years ago, and
> could be inaccurate for any of many reasons, most of which I'm sure you
> can imagine as well as I.

 Eventually I will and it's always good to know what to expect (hmm, from 
experience somehow the worst always happens anyway, but knowing the 
potential area of breakage does help).  X.org has gone modular at some 
point and that does help -- compared to monolithic X servers as they used 
to be -- with computers which are not the richest in resources, especially 
RAM (demand paging combined with overcommitment helps a bit, but still why 
have that stuff there in the first place?).  So upgrading makes sense from 
my point of view.

> But, yes, consider it a warning to look into it before just assuming
> that the support will (a) be there and (b) be non-bitrotted.  I trust
> my memory enough to be fairly sure that _something_ of the sort
> happened, even if I've got some details wrong.

 Honestly I'd expect dumb frame buffer support to just work, as there 
isn't much there to break or maintain.  A pixel array and a RAMDAC handled 
entirely by the kernel via generic calls isn't rocket science after all.

 So if they broke some generic parts (DIX) by the lack of due attention, 
then I'm really concerned.

  Maciej

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Mon Feb 22 19:48:08 2016
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:48:08 -0700
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/22/2016 9:58 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> Portability was a fundamental free software tenet.
>
> Is.  Was, perhaps, even, in the non-OS space.  But in the OS space, I
> think every open-source OS was originally done on some very small
> number of architectures.  Unix was done on the PDP-11 (something else
> before that, I think, but I forget what, and I think it was with the
> move to the -11 that it became portable enough to be ported instead of
> rewritten).  BSD was done on the VAX and Tahoe.  The Jolitzs' work,
> Linus's work, i386.  All of them moved beyond those initial machines,
> yes, and that was essential to their success.  But they had to start
> somewhere.

I am still playing with FPGA's here for my home brew computer
and a OS would be handy.

I still am having a few problems with design, and that is finding
just what parts where around in 1976. A nice simple 74LS design
with a 20 bit word length and 10 bit bytes. A 750 ns memory cycle
with 4k drams looks possible.

Where are all to portable compilers and assemblers source code???
Oh wait you have to pay good money for them back then?.
OH now we can't be bothered to support the small machines,
sorry no source for that. My biggest gripe for Minux
other than the racoon mascot.

Ben, computing in other than 8 bits.


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 19:53:10 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:53:10 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>

I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.

First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a .D64 (or
other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a 1541
(or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the various
X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd suggest
using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased, or,
with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.

The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on the
PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc. original
SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images of
the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..

If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to the
SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies, so
wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's very
well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
>
>> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
>> if so please enplane how it is done
>>
>
> You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card to a
> Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
> commodore disk on a PC.
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 19:53:38 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:53:38 -0500
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBud6s7Zia7XAo+CPZzwjR4e9_1SL-ACzwno49i5WbAKtfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
>
>> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
>> if so please enplane how it is done
>>
>
> You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card to a
> Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
> commodore disk on a PC.
>
>
I am assuming you have the iUEC
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=490
>From this page links tell you how to move files, etc.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 19:55:31 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:55:31 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5BmayOKMxPeydphjdJtPYmp-=Vou5Jye-sT1MzvCSHmg@mail.gmail.com>

Pardon this..

One thing I forgot to mention, is copy protection. As far as I'm aware,
none of the cross-platform suites (like OpenCBM) support copying protected
discs.

You may find that they can do an end-run around certain techniques, but in
general, it's just not supported. If your games aren't already 'cracked',
then that's another issue in and of itself.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:53 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
> what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
>
> First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a .D64
> (or other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a
> 1541 (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the
> various X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd
> suggest using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased,
> or, with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.
>
> The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on the
> PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
> driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc. original
> SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images of
> the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..
>
> If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to the
> SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies, so
> wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's very
> well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
>>> if so please enplane how it is done
>>>
>>
>> You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card to
>> a Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
>> commodore disk on a PC.
>>
>>
>

From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 22 19:59:19 2016
From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 19:59:19 -0600
Subject: DEC and DG equipment for sale/trade/whatever in Houston TX
Message-ID: <004601d16ddd$e500a600$af01f200$@com>

Hi all,

 

Really hate to do this but been out of work for a while and need to clear
out a storage space to save some money. And I figure as much as I'd like
these machine working to play with, I'll never actually get to work with
them so offering them up for sale, trade for smaller more in line with my
other systems items, or if it gets down to it, just get it to a good home
though would be nice to get a little something out of it.

 

Have a PDP-11/34 in a rack with an RK05J drive though I suspect the drive
isn't any good now. The top of the drive is gone as I rescued this from a
scrapper who had started on the drive first. Several disk packs are included
but no idea what is on the disks as I didn't get to any point with it where
I could tell. I did test out the power supply and then bring up the system
itself and seem to run fine. The boards inside from what I recall are RK05
controller (M7254, M7255, M7256, M7257), memory (H-228B, H-222A (x2)),
memory parity (M7850), SLU & Realtime clock (M7856 (x2)), an M7814, console
interface (M7859), boot roms (M9301YF), and cpu (M8265, M8266).

 

Also have a DG Nova-3 but it is basic case without any boards inside at all.

 

Hope someone is interested and can pick them up as my only other option will
be to send it all back to the scrapper. Let me know if you need any more
info and I'll do what I can to get it. Not an expert on either system and
they are in the back of the storage space so it could take me some time to
pull them out to get any info off them.

 

Will have some other stuff to offer up as well as I clear out the space.

 

Best,

David Williams

www.trailingedge.com

 


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 20:00:58 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:00:58 -0500
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd5BmayOKMxPeydphjdJtPYmp-=Vou5Jye-sT1MzvCSHmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd5BmayOKMxPeydphjdJtPYmp-=Vou5Jye-sT1MzvCSHmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufq5TDK-SPqayqciokcv_4jQLjkhPv6z1EA5Ty45bQOhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:55 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> Pardon this..
>
> One thing I forgot to mention, is copy protection. As far as I'm aware,
> none of the cross-platform suites (like OpenCBM) support copying protected
> discs.
>
> You may find that they can do an end-run around certain techniques, but in
> general, it's just not supported. If your games aren't already 'cracked',
> then that's another issue in and of itself.
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:53 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
> > what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to
> the
> > SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies,
> so
> > wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's
> very
> > well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)
> >
>
>
If you have uIEC it's a piece of cake.  (my earlier email I made a typo,
it's NOT "iUEC")

Here is the d64 editor I used
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/commodore/64/d64editor/

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 20:35:10 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:35:10 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMiQGfpU=DWyXvM+_cM_3VccMJCnh0LYVWNEJv8YL5KQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbMiQGfpU=DWyXvM+_cM_3VccMJCnh0LYVWNEJv8YL5KQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9ED6C5E-E90C-4FAE-9C59-CC99E2FCCF03@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 16:12 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
> tweaked tu58em?

I think you simply type "make" to build it on a unix-like system (e.g., Linux).


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 20:40:26 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:40:26 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <D9ED6C5E-E90C-4FAE-9C59-CC99E2FCCF03@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbMiQGfpU=DWyXvM+_cM_3VccMJCnh0LYVWNEJv8YL5KQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D9ED6C5E-E90C-4FAE-9C59-CC99E2FCCF03@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbM+nfh4YP84EGu_ULuLfNUmHL-UwZWpM18gpEeXp6Bzhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 16:12 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
>> tweaked tu58em?
>
> I think you simply type "make" to build it on a unix-like system (e.g., Linux).

...which blows up immediately with large numbers of errors and
warnings when it gets to serial.c - looks like it's hardcoded for
Windows header files. No worries I'll puzzle it out; the main branch
tu58em builds cleanly with no issues on Linux.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Feb 22 20:41:48 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:41:48 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <D9ED6C5E-E90C-4FAE-9C59-CC99E2FCCF03@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPpY2AgiKPtpLGN3jSb5n87ScXJy_-8qBbRMfY7itjVsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EADD7C85-9012-45A0-9559-641486BCA79F@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E84EC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <926F517E-739C-4FCB-9F3D-28F5CF621C56@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbMiQGfpU=DWyXvM+_cM_3VccMJCnh0LYVWNEJv8YL5KQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D9ED6C5E-E90C-4FAE-9C59-CC99E2FCCF03@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <732D0FE6-9D2C-4835-A33E-173433625FF9@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2016, at 18:35 , Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 16:12 , Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Mark am I missing something or is there no make option for Linux in your
>> tweaked tu58em?
> 
> I think you simply type "make" to build it on a unix-like system (e.g., Linux).


Oops, I'm wrong.

Linux (untested with my patch):
  make comm=unix

Mac:
  make comm=mac

Windows (untested with my patch):
  make comm=win


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 20:42:46 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:42:46 -0600
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20160223024245.GC6201@gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, ben wrote:
> Where are all to portable compilers and assemblers source code???
> Oh wait you have to pay good money for them back then?.
> OH now we can't be bothered to support the small machines,
> sorry no source for that. My biggest gripe for Minux
> other than the racoon mascot.

Hey, we all know a raccoon makes a great mascot. Better than a penguin,
daemon, or puffer fish :)

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 20:54:51 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:54:51 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, drlegendre . wrote:
> I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
> what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
> 
> First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a .D64 (or
> other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a 1541
> (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the various
> X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd suggest
> using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased, or,
> with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.

Does anyone know of a way, from Linux, to determine the particular
species of one of those cables? I bought mine years ago and no longer
remember which it is (and it isn't marked). I assume it's XM, since I'm
sure I intended it for use in Linux when I bought it, but I'd like to be
sure.

> 
> The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on the
> PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
> driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc. original
> SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images of
> the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..

Somewhere I picked up the idea that for that you would need a cable that
connects, not only to the serial IEC port of the drive, but to a
parallel port which you must DIY on the drive. Would someone mind
chiming in here -- I don't understand how that would do anything other
than making the transfer faster? I know that on the software side you
specifically need nibbling tools, like mnib.

> 
> If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to the
> SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies, so
> wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's very
> well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)

The SD card devices all use Ingo Korb's SD2IEC software, as far as I
know.  The main source of documentation I know of is at
<https://www.sd2iec.de/gitweb/?p=sd2iec.git;a=blob;f=README;hb=HEAD>.

> 
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD card
> >> if so please enplane how it is done
> >>
> >
> > You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card to a
> > Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
> > commodore disk on a PC.
> >
> >

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From useddec at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 23:11:56 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:11:56 -0600
Subject: dec mid-sized cabinet (TU10/TM11)
In-Reply-To: <000001d16dca$c0f220d0$42d66270$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003801d16d85$bce4e350$36aea9f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <20160222160753.GC7961@Update.UU.SE>
 <DUB112-DS191C713815566240C4BF7A86A30@phx.gbl>
 <001201d16da1$efc7dc70$cf579550$@classiccmp.org>
 <CACwhfuNF5oMXbrYAS-zGpcwEXvjjYbZWf4YNDUNsvEXdGGkS8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7ebfe25ff1ee725fcac53a24db86e48.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <64ad254a7d3ae824b3628cce1da33e7a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <000001d16dca$c0f220d0$42d66270$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOV+_CCcOEqc9RgP7xT9s=Fp4RpeZLSjj9Tm_OoDkZwaw@mail.gmail.com>

The H950 was the rack only. If you add a few options, doors, sides, fans,
etc, Then it became the H960 cabinet.

The H967 is all 90 degree angles on the top front. the bezel is angled, and
came in several varieties, with or without switches, color, etc. There are
2 screws on each end of  it that hold it in place. As I remember they are a
pain in the rear to get to.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Steven... thanks a ton! I think you've solved the mystery.
>
> What was in the documents you scanned is clearly my rack... so it's
> definitely an H967.
>
> But if you look at the handbook link I posted earlier, it ALSO lists an
> H967, which is clearly different than mine and the document you scanned
> (ie. Fan sits in center of cabinet pointed downward with a cowling, and the
> top of the rack is flat, not sloped).
>
> So it would appear that over time there were two very similar, but
> different racks - both designated H967.
>
> Thanks!
>
> J
>
>
>

From rlloken at telus.net  Mon Feb 22 23:38:24 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 22:38:24 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602220709.CAA24092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <201602220709.CAA24092@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602222237000.576@discord.bogons>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:

>> Computer games require all you can give them [...]
>
> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering
> games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class
> (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack,
> etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven,
> Klondike...the list is long.

But those are Computer Games!  Not computer games.  It is a long time
since I have played rogue.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Feb 22 17:59:24 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:59:24 +0000 (WET)
Subject: VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 SMTP Question
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:12:23 -0500"
 <CABGJBudpzxPmXMiLNPL-cV--1+mb0QS7aLZdbqZ0OdFz96JhQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PX064A5SNO00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I can telnet in/out and I can send SMTP messages, but I cannot yet receive
> them (reply to).  The issue is with the format of the email address.
>
> I was wondering if I must send emails from my VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 as
> such:
>
> MAIL> MAIL
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.com"
>
> etc..
>
> Is there a way instead to send like this:
>
> MAIL> MAIL
> To: bill at myemail.com"
>

I think being able to that (without the trailing doublequote) came in with
VMS MAIL in V7.something.

If you install PMDF (which also has a hobbyist licence), you get the PMDF MAIL
client which can do this and can also do MIME attachments and is generally a
lot more capable than VMS MAIL.

> Question #2
>
> I'd like to be able to send messages to my MicroVAX (reply to messages).
> At present if I try to send a message to SYSTEM at microvax3100@
> vintagecomputer.net I get a rejection from the POSTMASTER like this:
>
> Bad address -- <SYSTEM>
> Error --
>     %MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification ':'
>
> -------------
>

PMDF can probably help you here too as it is vastly more capable than Multinet
SMTP.  However, there is also a lot to learn.

>
> I have been reading up and I have narrowed the issue down to the
> differences between DEC mail format and "modern UNIX".  I don't believe
> anything is being blocked.  I am sure if I sent an email from a VAX to my
> VAX it would work just fine.  I am also guessing there is a translation
> gateway that I need to set as part of the boot up process, and that this is
> a DECnet issue, not a Multinet issue.   I was playing around with
> *@MULTINET:MR_CONFIGURE
> *but I am unsure if that's the correct process, or how to store this so
> it's permanently set.
>
> http://crpppc19.epfl.ch/vms/multinet/html/admin_guide/Ch08.htm#E15E104
>
> Anyone have any tips?  I don't want to upgrade the system unless I have to.
>
> If I find the answer on my own I will post it here.
>

I'm not quite sure whether SYSTEM at microvax3100@vintagecomputer.net is really
what you need here.  Maybe SYSTEM%microvax3100 at vintagecomputer.net would work,
assuming the mail server for vintagecomputer.net is configured to know how
to route mail for a mail domain called microvax3100.

Also, bear in mind that many mail servers may be configured to reject mails
with convoluted routing such as this as spammers often found ways to abuse it.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 00:17:57 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 00:17:57 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>

I know of no way, probing only with the PC & software, to determine which
type of X-1541 cable you might have. However, wiring diagrams for +all+
versions are freely available, and it shouldn't be any great effort to open
up and - with the help of a multimeter - examine a given cable and compare
it against the various arrangements.

The 1541-side parallel port is totally optional, and it is not required to
produce a working setup. However, when coupled with an appropriate cable,
drives equipped with the parallel connector operate several times faster
than even the fastest non-parallel setups. That said, any of the X-1541
setups will tend to run a fair bit faster than a genuine Commodre IEC bus,
so unless you plan to do a +lot+ of transfer, don't worry about going the
parallel route.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Eric Christopherson <
echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, drlegendre . wrote:
> > I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
> > what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
> >
> > First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a .D64
> (or
> > other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a 1541
> > (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the various
> > X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd suggest
> > using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased, or,
> > with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.
>
> Does anyone know of a way, from Linux, to determine the particular
> species of one of those cables? I bought mine years ago and no longer
> remember which it is (and it isn't marked). I assume it's XM, since I'm
> sure I intended it for use in Linux when I bought it, but I'd like to be
> sure.
>
> >
> > The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on the
> > PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
> > driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc. original
> > SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images of
> > the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..
>
> Somewhere I picked up the idea that for that you would need a cable that
> connects, not only to the serial IEC port of the drive, but to a
> parallel port which you must DIY on the drive. Would someone mind
> chiming in here -- I don't understand how that would do anything other
> than making the transfer faster? I know that on the software side you
> specifically need nibbling tools, like mnib.
>
> >
> > If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to
> the
> > SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies,
> so
> > wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's
> very
> > well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)
>
> The SD card devices all use Ingo Korb's SD2IEC software, as far as I
> know.  The main source of documentation I know of is at
> <https://www.sd2iec.de/gitweb/?p=sd2iec.git;a=blob;f=README;hb=HEAD>.
>
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
> > >
> > >> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD
> card
> > >> if so please enplane how it is done
> > >>
> > >
> > > You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card
> to a
> > > Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
> > > commodore disk on a PC.
> > >
> > >
>
> --
>         Eric Christopherson
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 23 01:04:59 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:59 -0800
Subject: Australian CP/M era computers?
In-Reply-To: <20160220162657.59E4B2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20160220162657.59E4B2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56CC049B.3050506@sydex.com>

On 02/20/2016 08:26 AM, John Foust wrote:
>
> Can anyone help idenitfy these?
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/46nse6/a_family_member_found_these_old_computers_in_a/

In spite of the floppy drives, I don't think these are general-purpose 
boxes.  The thing that strikes me, given the displays is that they might 
be graphics workstations of some sort.  There's just too much there for 
a simple floppy-based computer.

The problem is that Hitachi is a huge outfit with tendrils in all sorts 
of industrial areas.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 23 01:02:10 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:02:10 -0800
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CC03F2.5010107@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2016 10:17 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> I know of no way, probing only with the PC & software, to determine
> which type of X-1541 cable you might have. However, wiring diagrams
> for +all+ versions are freely available, and it shouldn't be any
> great effort to open up and - with the help of a multimeter - examine
> a given cable and compare it against the various arrangements.
>
> The 1541-side parallel port is totally optional, and it is not
> required to produce a working setup. However, when coupled with an
> appropriate cable, drives equipped with the parallel connector
> operate several times faster than even the fastest non-parallel
> setups. That said, any of the X-1541 setups will tend to run a fair
> bit faster than a genuine Commodre IEC bus, so unless you plan to do
> a +lot+ of transfer, don't worry about going the parallel route.

I'm occasionally called on to transfer some of the C64 floppies.  I have 
a 1571 and have cobbled up the XM interface connected to a DB25F 
permanently mounted on the drive.  That way, I can use a "straight 
through" cable to the parallel port of the host PC without thinking 
about what I might need.  Works fine; I get use it about once every 3-4 
years.

I suppose it might be possible to rig something more elaborate up using 
a small MCU and a USB cable, but the need doesn't justify the effort.

--Chuck

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 23 01:40:30 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:40:30 -0800
Subject: Australian CP/M era computers?
In-Reply-To: <56CC049B.3050506@sydex.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20160220162657.59E4B2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <56CC049B.3050506@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56CC0CEE.3060502@jwsss.com>



On 2/22/2016 11:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/20/2016 08:26 AM, John Foust wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone help idenitfy these?
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/46nse6/a_family_member_found_these_old_computers_in_a/ 
>>
>
> In spite of the floppy drives, I don't think these are general-purpose 
> boxes.  The thing that strikes me, given the displays is that they 
> might be graphics workstations of some sort.  There's just too much 
> there for a simple floppy-based computer.
>
> The problem is that Hitachi is a huge outfit with tendrils in all 
> sorts of industrial areas.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
Hitachi makes heavy equipment and this may be graphical control units, 
or older style control displays.  W/o some clue as to what shows up on 
the screens it would be hard to figure out.  Also are there any other 
cabinet or building sized Hitachi equipment in the vicinity?  Maybe 
crushers, or processing lines with lots of Hitachi boxes in use.

This sort of console might be around that, since the Redditer stated it 
was a Mining company.  As chuck points out they are into a lot.

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 23 01:56:31 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:56:31 -0800
Subject: PCP11-E board
Message-ID: <56CC10AF.7080709@jwsss.com>

I have a PCP-11E board, which I'd like people to comment on, perhaps 
point me at some documentation if you know of any.  Google is saturated 
with references for the three letter acronym for a controlled substance, 
nothing much has showed up, and the manufacturer was not very proud of 
the board, so that won't reduce ambiguity in searching for info.

It has a z80, and a couple of Parallel I/O chips as well as a Zilog CTC 
on it, so it is smelling like some sort of equipment interface or 
perhaps a Laser printer or high speed printer board.

Probably has a 2716 chip on it for code, would like to get it imaged and 
disassembled.

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/02/pcp11e-qbus-board.html

I did a quick look at the thing and there are pictures of the overall 
board as well as closeups.  I guess one could hope to play with CPM on 
it if nothing else.

thanks
Jim


From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 23 02:02:02 2016
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 03:02:02 -0500
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <d2e1cdf2ebe20373700559ef376079dd@alanlee.org>

 

http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/dslogic.html [1] 

.. by a mile. 

Use it all the time. Works great. 

-Alan 

On 2016-02-20 16:31, GerardCJAT wrote: 

> Which is your favourite ? Why you like it and would recommend it ? and .... How often you use it ?
 

Links:
------
[1] http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/dslogic.html

From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 23 02:02:02 2016
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 03:02:02 -0500
Subject: Logic Analyser Polling ....
In-Reply-To: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
References: <D8FD5177541D4BB2AB0A6D2CBF60D8FD@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <d2e1cdf2ebe20373700559ef376079dd@alanlee.org>

 

http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/dslogic.html [1] 

.. by a mile. 

Use it all the time. Works great. 

-Alan 

On 2016-02-20 16:31, GerardCJAT wrote: 

> Which is your favourite ? Why you like it and would recommend it ? and .... How often you use it ?
 

Links:
------
[1] http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/dslogic.html

From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 23 02:04:25 2016
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 03:04:25 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <cab6457a85e80ad66862d2a5a1440ca8@alanlee.org>

 

I would if I knew of an exotic wilderness plane of existence with an
observation deck. 

I've never seen one in the wild. 

-Alan 

On 2016-02-22 17:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: 

> On 02/22/2016 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: 
> 
>> Here's an interesting tid-bit.
>> 
>> I just got off the phone with the AT&T corporate archives, where I
>> had hoped to find schematics and internals documentation for the AT&T
>> 3B2. They do have it, but unfortunately they will not give access to
>> any of it because they still consider the 3B2 to be proprietary
>> information.
> 
> Speaking of AT&T tidbits, does anyone here collect the larger 3B systems? That is, the 3B20/21/4000?
> 
> Just curious,
> Chuck
 

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 02:06:45 2016
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:06:45 +0100
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <CAL1Jhhz+4Rm38RKU3zivm=F0wsHmgFQCYVte=tMJT9xWSd3_wg@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 20:08,  <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Then  there is  this  information.....
>
> PDP-11/15
>
>
>  (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/15#column-one)
> (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/15#searchInput)
>
>
> This is the OEM version of the _PDP-11/20_
> (http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/20) .

As gunkies came up a few times during this thread, please beware that
those of us who update gunkies in some cases simply try to collect
information that's floating around so that it doesn't disappear -
gunkies is different from Wikipedia, and is meant to be. Please read
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page, particularly 'Sentences starting
with "I seem to recall" are perfectly welcome here'
That doesn't mean that there's no trustworthy information there, but
there'll be an element of "research", and sometimes hearsay, which
Wikipedia doesn't allow.

In other words, the output from discussions on this list will
sometimes be input for gunkies, in that case it shouldn't be used the
other way around.. except for defacto factual stuff like images and
linked documents.

(In other news, gunkies was recently moved to a "less glacial server",
as the admin phrased it.. well, that's the understatement of the
century, it's now easy and quick to edit. I mention this because now
and then people on cctalk have asked for a place to collect lists of
technical information of various types, which are not welcome on
Wikipedia. This type of info *is* welcome on gunkies, and now that
it's snappy to use it is a real alternative. Feel free, folks.. the
only issue is that due to past spam problems it's necessary to email
the admin to get an account and write access.)

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 03:26:56 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:26:56 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip

Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there.... but this is as far as it gets:

MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
-r vax73058
info: unit 0 r    file 'vax73058'
info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com>, (C) 1984 Dan
Ts'o <Rockefeller University>
info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
info: TU58 emulation start
info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
info: emulator started

(I ctrl-c the VAX)

info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info: <NULL> seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info: <NULL> seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info: <INIT> seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info: <INIT> seen
info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(I ctrl-c the VAX again)

info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
info: <NULL> seen
info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
info: <NULL> seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
info: <INIT> seen
info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
info: <INIT> seen
info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>

(?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)

(repeat)

Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
various options?

(I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
otherwise it's straight out of the box)

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From tingox at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 06:51:18 2016
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:51:18 +0100
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <56CC03F2.5010107@sydex.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC03F2.5010107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtbPaHjxEzqUytJeBmTmmMSUqkHYOwrofZM6muM-6CYb5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> I'm occasionally called on to transfer some of the C64 floppies.  I have a
> 1571 and have cobbled up the XM interface connected to a DB25F permanently
> mounted on the drive.  That way, I can use a "straight through" cable to the
> parallel port of the host PC without thinking about what I might need.
> Works fine; I get use it about once every 3-4 years.
>
> I suppose it might be possible to rig something more elaborate up using a
> small MCU and a USB cable, but the need doesn't justify the effort.

FWIW, I use a ZoomFloppy[1] connected to a 1571. OpenCBM is my choice
for software.
Only used occasionally :)

References:
1) http://www.go4retro.com/products/zoomfloppy/
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 23 07:13:31 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:13:31 +0000
Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB072246B66E66EDF820F8EF20A3A30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAC20j8QEM8zvpz-A+ceqhYQ9L-Yh=COZ2ZsLV3rTKjRkJqiiBw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BN3PR14MB072246B66E66EDF820F8EF20A3A30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8832@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> You could use something like an Arduino to buffer
> either. It could take the 9600 from the terminal and
> retransmit it at 110. It would be slow when updating
> data to the terminal but it should be able to buffer human
> input at the terminal.

If you're going to keep the PDP11 port at 110 baud, then
you might as well just turn the switches on the VT52 to make
that do 110 buad too and use a 4 pole changeover switch to
select between the 2 terminals.

Why use a million components when a couple will do?

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 23 07:25:26 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:25:26 +0000
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>,
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8848@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
> equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
> analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
> the LA is great for what I work on).

I would love to find the upgrade kit to turn my 1630 into a 1631, but they are
not exactly common.

> However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
> analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them. As much as I really WANT the 4952
> to be "it", it isn't - for me. Mainly because I have found that having a
> unfolding or removable (or permanently in the usual spot) keyboard takes up
> far too much bench space - or is unusable when standing the unit upright
> (very often it was convenient to set the LA on the floor and on the models I
> use - the keyboard and screen face straight up).

Right... That is an interesting point. With the sorts of machines we work on
you want to take the test gear to the machine and not vice versa and there
is often nowhere convenient to put a large instrument

I was given a unit badged by Black Box (I can get the details which is almost
small enough to be handheld. It has an 8 line LCD display (in monitor mode, 
alternate lines give the data in each direction, one is in inverse video so it's
quite clear) and a membrane keyboard with nice clicky metal domes. I forget
the internals, but it's something like a Z180, nothing really custom apart from
the ROM. One oddity is the power switch, which is both a slide switch (to 
completly disconnect the battery) and keys on the keyboard. Given that the
RAM contents (data and config) are backed up by a lithium coin cell even when
the slide switch is turned off, it is not clear why they did it this way. I suspect
the HP units do rather more, but this does everything I need apart from not
going down to 50 (or 45.45) baud.

[...]

> Just my 2 millidollars worth...

Don't you mean 20 millidollars?

-tony

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb 23 08:06:39 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:06:39 -0600
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8848@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>,
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E8848@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <001b01d16e43$6a7790e0$3f66b2a0$@classiccmp.org>

I had written...
> Just my 2 millidollars worth...

To which Tony replied....
----------
Don't you mean 20 millidollars?
----------

I'd have intended to say 2 centidollars... but if I say I meant 20
millidollars then I can claim it was merely a typo and I dropped the 0
*cough*

J



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 05:50:30 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 06:50:30 -0500
Subject: VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 SMTP Question
In-Reply-To: <01PX064A5SNO00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CABGJBudpzxPmXMiLNPL-cV--1+mb0QS7aLZdbqZ0OdFz96JhQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PX064A5SNO00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudUz7jogmERTdwB9k5TtjvFqYhoBwXhY-YmM38XAYto3g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I'm not quite sure whether SYSTEM at microvax3100@vintagecomputer.net is
really
> what you need here.  Maybe SYSTEM%microvax3100 at vintagecomputer.net would
work,
> assuming the mail server for vintagecomputer.net is configured to know how
> to route mail for a mail domain called microvax3100.
>
> Also, bear in mind that many mail servers may be configured to reject
mails
> with convoluted routing such as this as spammers often found ways to
abuse it.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

Thanks for your reply.  My error I meant send email to
system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net

If the older version of vms and multinet have these limits then so be it.
I found only newer docs for Multinet to use.  Whoever owned this machine
before me must have used for local mail and some sort of development or
computer support work before open Internet emailing.  I have to pull the
battery, etc. and stabilize the system but I prefer to keep everything
as-was and not upgrade the services. I only changed the networking values
so I could do comms.

Bill

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 06:17:51 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:17:51 -0500
Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A
In-Reply-To: <BN3PR14MB072246B66E66EDF820F8EF20A3A30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAC20j8QEM8zvpz-A+ceqhYQ9L-Yh=COZ2ZsLV3rTKjRkJqiiBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN3PR14MB072246B66E66EDF820F8EF20A3A30@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuccdJ-5erPnK3gTzihcr5+o0c_8LvDpwmAafE-Ds_rmHw@mail.gmail.com>

> ________________________________________
> From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Marc Howard <
cramcram at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 7:40 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
> Subject: How to use both a VT-52 and an ASR-33 on a PDP-8A
>
> Hi,
>
> Just looking for suggestions on how best to setup my PDP-8A so that it can
> use either a VT-52 (current loop version) or an ASR-33.
>
> One idea I have is a multi-pole switch to change the baud rate from 110 to
> 9600 and to also switch the xmit and rcv current loops.
>
> Does anyone out there have any other suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc

I don't have one, but can't  you attach two devices to the M8316 and just
assign program IO to the teletype and typewriter/printout to the vt52?  If
the m8316 does not have multiple ports a second serial card would be used,
right?  They must have this documented in the peripheral handbook that
corresponds with the 8a.
B

Bill

The comms characteristics are set on the

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Feb 23 07:15:51 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:15:51 +0000 (WET)
Subject: VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 SMTP Question
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 23 Feb 2016 06:50:30 -0500"
 <CABGJBudUz7jogmERTdwB9k5TtjvFqYhoBwXhY-YmM38XAYto3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBudpzxPmXMiLNPL-cV--1+mb0QS7aLZdbqZ0OdFz96JhQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PX064A5SNO00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PX0YAQRQAC00C8KE@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Thanks for your reply.  My error I meant send email to
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
>

Multinet is an excellent TCP/IP stack but the SMTP server included with it
is a bit limited and V4.1 is old.  If you allow it to accept SMTP mail directly
from the internet, it may be difficult or impossible to secure it against
exploitation as a spam relay which would cause lots of problems for others
as well as yourself.

Having said that, it should be possible to feed mail to it from a more capable
internet facing SMTP mail server or set it up to send/receive SMTP mail on your
internal network only.

To do this, you don't need the DECnet to SMTP mail gateway you mentioned.  If
this was configured on your machine, it may have been used to allow the machine
running Multinet SMTP to accept mail from the internet and pass it on to other
DECnet connected machines which did not run SMTP.

I don't know what MULTINET:MR_CONFIGURE.COM is but "MR" suggests it might be
something to do with ALL-IN-1 mail rather than VMS MAIL.  If you want to run
ALL-IN-1 mail, this is very different to using VMS MAIL.

Everything you need to route SMTP mail to/from VMS MAIL on your machine should
be provided by:

$ MULTINET CONFIGURE /MAIL

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 08:44:17 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:44:17 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
 <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFtD2qhhk3WJCOemfM4f-PCkoFvamibFxTF99BtAuH2QA@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 17:36, Mazzini Alessandro <mazzinia at tin.it> wrote:
> Not to intrude, but apple could also have gone with the serious power cpu,
> thus not "needing" to move to x86. As long as there's enough of a push, sw
> houses release versions for a different architecture... and power is hardly
> a dead end.


The problem is that the mainstream PC market is increasingly going to
portables. Laptops outsell desktops 2 times over now.

POWER chips are still going strong but they're big and run hot taking
lots of power. Apple needed a CPU line that could offer good notebook
chips as well as desktop chips, and POWER (and PowerPC) was only
addressing desktop devices.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 08:45:00 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:45:00 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB3A27.6040509@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB3A27.6040509@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEGPmEz3b9=ab4zCXLBp2Ea0Q_RQ=fYnOCpkR0YsLqy7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2016 at 17:41, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> *Today's* "modern computer market."
>
> Are they doing _that_ or are they going after QNX? Or both? #confused

It's a decade-old project. It needs to run on cheap commodity kit.
Cheap commodity kit means x86 and ARM.

What is in any way confusing about that?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 20 13:36:08 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:36:08 -0500
Subject: WTT iPhone 5 for a apple II
Message-ID: <CAFnE5TNk3qZK2zk7zXOVneDwL9+KqdWT-r0otZaFV5ffqMF1Sg@mail.gmail.com>

I am sure a few of you have extra Apple 2's laying around and I have a
couple apple  iPhone 5 in mint cond please let me know what ya have or a
commodore pet.

-- 
*Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!*

*       Have a blessed day!*

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 22 17:15:55 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:15:55 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/22/2016 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
>
>> Here's an interesting tid-bit.
>>
>> I just got off the phone with the AT&T corporate archives, where I
>> had hoped to find schematics and internals documentation for the AT&T
>> 3B2. They do have it, but unfortunately they will not give access to
>> any of it because they still consider the 3B2 to be proprietary
>> information.
>>
>
> Speaking of AT&T tidbits, does anyone here collect the larger 3B systems?
> That is, the 3B20/21/4000?
>
> Just curious,
> Chuck
>
>

?Are you serious. I rebuild vintage Honda ATC 3 Wheelers? and some people
till this day think they are illegal to even own bahahahahah There is only
one law that was left that dropped out in 2015 and it was they could not me
manufactured. Japan is making its first prototype as we speak and yes I
will pre-order mine!Just like Guns don't kill the people PEOPLE KILL
PEOPLE! ATC's don't kill people who do not train there children respect and
safety is what kills people. LOL THE WAY SOME PEOPLE THINK... I have been
hurt on my 250R but it was because there were a bunch of chicks there and I
was showing off and I would have been hurt worse if I would have been on a
farm quad instad of a farm Big Red it would have crushed me and killed me...

-
?
-
*Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!*



*       Have a blessed day!?God Bless Ya'll!?*

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 23 09:45:48 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:45:48 +0000
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
In-Reply-To: <201602221426.JAA10722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>,
 <201602221426.JAA10722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB0722589C859363318D1F9A7EA3A40@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Using all these features as part of specialized macros.
Sometimes I like just the disassembly of the line while single
stepping.
Sometimes I like just the registers.
Sometimes I like both and a small memory window.
Being able to combine things is useful, into a single keyboard character.
Of course, being able to patch in code, quickly written is another.
I use "stop when this expression evaluates true" type of action all the
time in my simulators that I write. 
I do things in Forth so there is always an interpreter there to add what
ever is needed. I prefer to use simulators, now that PCs run so fast.
Dwight
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 6:26 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Helpful Features in a Debugger

> Also possible to be checked are specified values that registers have,
> or don't have, which stop a multi-step sequence.  Checks on memory
> locations can also be included.

These and many of the other stop conditions could possibly be subsumed
by a "stop when this expression evaluates true" facility, with
expression primitives capable of representing all the things you might
want to watch.  It would of course be CPU-intensive if the expression
is complicated, but that's unavoidable, and I have occasionally wished
for "run until this number is greater than that number plus twice this
register" or the like, even if it runs multiple orders of magnitude
slower.  (Not when running under RT-11, but that's mostly because I
have done little-to-no work under RT-11 at all.)

> And a record of which instructions were executed by saving the
> program counter addresses in a circular buffer allows the user to
> check for unexpected execution of certain parts of the code.

I don't know how common self-modifying code is, but it might be nice to
be able to save not just the PC values but the actual instructions
executed.  (I would hope deliberate self-modifying code is rare, but
IIRC some -11s don't have the MMU hardware to prevent accidental
self-modifying code - or execution out of areas not normally thought of
as instructions.)

/~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Feb 23 09:46:30 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:46:30 -0500
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEGPmEz3b9=ab4zCXLBp2Ea0Q_RQ=fYnOCpkR0YsLqy7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB3A27.6040509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEGPmEz3b9=ab4zCXLBp2Ea0Q_RQ=fYnOCpkR0YsLqy7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CC7ED6.5090500@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-23 9:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 22 February 2016 at 17:41, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> *Today's* "modern computer market."
>>
>> Are they doing _that_ or are they going after QNX? Or both? #confused
>
> It's a decade-old project. It needs to run on cheap commodity kit.
> Cheap commodity kit means x86 and ARM.
>
> What is in any way confusing about that?
>

So where does QNX come in? Isn't that embedded rather than 
desktop/laptop/tablet?

--Toby

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 09:51:30 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:51:30 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93CGRL+2Mn=qgEBj8Def2nCcRuz2NWzUdVHRSA6+oZb3Ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:17 AM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> I know of no way, probing only with the PC & software, to determine which
> type of X-1541 cable you might have. However, wiring diagrams for +all+
> versions are freely available, and it shouldn't be any great effort to open
> up and - with the help of a multimeter - examine a given cable and compare
> it against the various arrangements.
>
> The 1541-side parallel port is totally optional, and it is not required to
> produce a working setup.


OK, so the presence of that parallel port has nothing to do with imaging
copy-protected disks, as I thought?

Now that I think about it, maybe some particular nibbling software (mnib or
the like) just requires the parallel port, probably for speed reasons or
whatever.


> However, when coupled with an appropriate cable,
> drives equipped with the parallel connector operate several times faster
> than even the fastest non-parallel setups. That said, any of the X-1541
> setups will tend to run a fair bit faster than a genuine Commodre IEC bus,
> so unless you plan to do a +lot+ of transfer, don't worry about going the
> parallel route.
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Eric Christopherson <
> echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, drlegendre . wrote:
> > > I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux.. here's
> > > what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
> > >
> > > First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a .D64
> > (or
> > > other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a
> 1541
> > > (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the
> various
> > > X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd suggest
> > > using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased, or,
> > > with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.
> >
> > Does anyone know of a way, from Linux, to determine the particular
> > species of one of those cables? I bought mine years ago and no longer
> > remember which it is (and it isn't marked). I assume it's XM, since I'm
> > sure I intended it for use in Linux when I bought it, but I'd like to be
> > sure.
> >
> > >
> > > The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on
> the
> > > PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
> > > driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc.
> original
> > > SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images
> of
> > > the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..
> >
> > Somewhere I picked up the idea that for that you would need a cable that
> > connects, not only to the serial IEC port of the drive, but to a
> > parallel port which you must DIY on the drive. Would someone mind
> > chiming in here -- I don't understand how that would do anything other
> > than making the transfer faster? I know that on the software side you
> > specifically need nibbling tools, like mnib.
> >
> > >
> > > If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image to
> > the
> > > SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 & floppies,
> > so
> > > wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure it's
> > very
> > > well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right? =)
> >
> > The SD card devices all use Ingo Korb's SD2IEC software, as far as I
> > know.  The main source of documentation I know of is at
> > <https://www.sd2iec.de/gitweb/?p=sd2iec.git;a=blob;f=README;hb=HEAD>.
> >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a SD
> > card
> > > >> if so please enplane how it is done
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD card
> > to a
> > > > Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read the
> > > > commodore disk on a PC.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> >         Eric Christopherson
> >
>



-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:05:17 2016
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:05:17 -0000
Subject: Australian CP/M era computers?
In-Reply-To: <56CC049B.3050506@sydex.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81F9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20160220162657.59E4B2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <56CC049B.3050506@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <034e01d16e53$fd9534d0$f8bf9e70$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 23 February 2016 07:05
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Australian CP/M era computers?
> 
> On 02/20/2016 08:26 AM, John Foust wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone help idenitfy these?
> >
> >
> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/46nse6/a_family_
> mem
> > ber_found_these_old_computers_in_a/
> 
> In spite of the floppy drives, I don't think these are general-purpose
boxes.
> The thing that strikes me, given the displays is that they might be
graphics
> workstations of some sort.  There's just too much there for a simple
floppy-
> based computer.
> 


I have an Hitachi pen plotter. Its almost a clone of the small HP Plotters.
I wonder if its related...

> The problem is that Hitachi is a huge outfit with tendrils in all sorts of
> industrial areas.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Dave
G4UGM


From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Tue Feb 23 10:20:10 2016
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:20:10 -0700
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CB4304.7060603@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB4304.7060603@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsm=k6LOYDtjdnZQbJM6CnpJ44HxNzdRb2hOAwTXJ0yptg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:

>
>> Seeing Minix 3 on x86 and ARM is good.  Unless it wants to wither when
>> the world moves beyond x86 and ARM, it will need to be done with enough
>> portability in mind to make porting it easy, yes, but it is hardly a
>> failing that it isn't ported yet.
>>
>
> Arguably, _only_ porting can fully reveal design issues that might impede
> porting. But if as Liam says their goals are met fully on x86 and ARM then
> I won't argue :)
>

The C compiler used by Minix 3 is Clang and at the moment Clang only
supports x86 and ARM.  Clang was used for licensing reasons rather than
GCC.  Other than the compiler issues the code to support a particular
processor is pretty small.  Switch compilers to one that supports your
processor, write the few modules needed to support the particular features
(memory management, I/O protection features) and you are done.  Of course
if your particular architecture doesn't have some necessary feature it
would leave a security hole that cannot be worked around other than trust.

When the world moves on from x86 and ARM I am sure Clang will get a backend
for it and if still around Minix 3 will get ported.

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:23:00 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:23:00 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development
 machine)
Message-ID: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:
>
>>> Computer games require all you can give them [...]
>>
>> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering
>> games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class
>> (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack,
>> etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven,
>> Klondike...the list is long.
>
> But those are Computer Games!  Not computer games.  It is a long time
> since I have played rogue.

I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
classics are:

Adventure
Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
Scott Adams Adventures
Wumpus
Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
Empire
Star Trek
rogue/hack
Larn/Ularn

But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly
"retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a
C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via
Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11
box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear -
it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an
IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on
site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may
drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).

I have the Commodore end pretty well covered.  I'm looking for
suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100)
terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on
Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.  So in general, anything that uses curses
or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty.

-ethan

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:29:10 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:29:10 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuccwY_Tx2BcQ0E0DVGgM2iSKHBhRAnraw6DzNcr3JGTkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:
> >
> >>> Computer games require all you can give them [...]
> >>
> >> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering
> >> games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class
> >> (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack,
> >> etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven,
> >> Klondike...the list is long.
> >
> > But those are Computer Games!  Not computer games.  It is a long time
> > since I have played rogue.
>
> I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
> terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
> classics are:
>
> Adventure
> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
> Scott Adams Adventures
> Wumpus
> Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
> Empire
> Star Trek
> rogue/hack
> Larn/Ularn
>
> But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly
> "retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a
> C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via
> Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11
> box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear -
> it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an
> IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on
> site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may
> drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).
>
> I have the Commodore end pretty well covered.  I'm looking for
> suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100)
> terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on
> Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.  So in general, anything that uses curses
> or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty.
>
> -ethan
>


I never checked, I did not know there were VAX games that you could
download/compile and run locally.  One of my VAXen has BASIC installed, but
most are mostly file servers.  I'd like to learn more myself.
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 10:37:45 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:37:45 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuccwY_Tx2BcQ0E0DVGgM2iSKHBhRAnraw6DzNcr3JGTkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBuccwY_Tx2BcQ0E0DVGgM2iSKHBhRAnraw6DzNcr3JGTkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=EwqSo+eQSK3gfC-eORKWxZim6WpV-PZfUdZfCzYA=2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:29 AM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ... 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100)
>> terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on
>> Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.
>
> I never checked, I did not know there were VAX games that you could
> download/compile and run locally.  One of my VAXen has BASIC installed, but
> most are mostly file servers.  I'd like to learn more myself.

Back in the day when I used VAXen and terminals all day, every day, we
had a variety of exectutable games for VMS (and we never had BASIC on
that machine).  One of the most popular was EMPIRE (to disambiguate,
this EMPIRE was a single-player, random world with armies, planes and
ships where you captured a city, changed its production and took over
the world - binary only, source never released).  I also ported a
number of UNIX games acquired from comp.sources.games and
comp.games.unix to VMS with a VMS curses library and a C compiler
(Whitesmith's C, which we used for our own development, and later,
VAX-C) including rogue and Larn.  I had the Infotaskforce "pinfocom"
Z-machine when it was _the_ 3rd-party Z-machine.  In the FORTRAN
realm, there's ADVENT and DUNGEON (Bob Supnik's port of Zork) and I'm
sure plenty more.  These I have on old backup images (and probably on
the 8300 in the basement).  I'm looking for stuff I might not have
known of 25-30 years ago.

-ethan

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 23 10:45:43 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:45:43 -0800
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2016 03:15 PM, Mike Boyle wrote:

> ?Are you serious. I rebuild vintage Honda ATC 3 Wheelers? and some
> people till this day think they are illegal to even own bahahahahah
> There is only one law that was left that dropped out in 2015 and it
> was they could not me manufactured. Japan is making its first
> prototype as we speak and yes I will pre-order mine!Just like Guns
> don't kill the people PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! ATC's don't kill people who
> do not train there children respect and safety is what kills people.
> LOL THE WAY SOME PEOPLE THINK... I have been hurt on my 250R but it
> was because there were a bunch of chicks there and I was showing off
> and I would have been hurt worse if I would have been on a farm quad
> instad of a farm Big Red it would have crushed me and killed me...

> - *Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!*

Can someone explain this list reply to me what what it has to do with 
AT&T minis?

Thanks,
Chuck



From abs at absd.org  Tue Feb 23 10:54:13 2016
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:54:13 +0000
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6paPoudVe4xbdwoSKXCk4P3o-EKWyN1qDQUTuagZCmKR_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 February 2016 at 16:23, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:
>>
>>>> Computer games require all you can give them [...]
>>>
>>> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering
>>> games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class
>>> (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack,
>>> etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven,
>>> Klondike...the list is long.
>>
>> But those are Computer Games!  Not computer games.  It is a long time
>> since I have played rogue.
>
> I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
> terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
> classics are:
>
> Adventure
> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
> Scott Adams Adventures
> Wumpus
> Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
> Empire
> Star Trek
> rogue/hack
> Larn/Ularn
>
> But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly
> "retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a
> C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via
> Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11
> box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear -
> it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an
> IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on
> site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may
> drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).

>From the old BSD games there were a couple of multiplayer games I
remember playing - sail ("wooden ships and iron men"), and hunt
(possibly the original unix deathmatch)

I remember dialing in on an 1200/75 modem to play hunt against other
students on hardwired terminals and sun workstations. I could normally
stay at the top of the scoreboard until a volcano erupted (just too
many screen updates swamped the link :).

I even wrote a BBC terminal emulator and matching termcap entry to
optimise the speed and number of characters required for update, to
eke every character out of that bandwidth :-p

For a later fun terminal based game, sokoban consumed a few hours

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue Feb 23 11:11:18 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:11:18 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=EwqSo+eQSK3gfC-eORKWxZim6WpV-PZfUdZfCzYA=2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBuccwY_Tx2BcQ0E0DVGgM2iSKHBhRAnraw6DzNcr3JGTkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EwqSo+eQSK3gfC-eORKWxZim6WpV-PZfUdZfCzYA=2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EFB00CF3-EE07-4CC7-9887-078FDB81C684@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 23, 2016, at 08:37, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Back in the day when I used VAXen and terminals all day, every day, we
> had a variety of exectutable games for VMS (and we never had BASIC on
> that machine).  One of the most popular was EMPIRE (to disambiguate,
> this EMPIRE was a single-player, random world with armies, planes and
> ships where you captured a city, changed its production and took over
> the world - binary only, source never released).

Is the VAX/VMS binary for this game archived anywhere? I'd love to try playing it on my 11/730 sometime!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Feb 23 11:15:50 2016
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:15:50 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <627ad1bd1ea7fc643aa53f963f0773a9@alanlee.org>

 

On 2016-02-23 11:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: 

>> - *Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!*
> 
> Can someone explain this list reply to me what what it has to do with AT&T minis?

1) Mike lives in Colorado, Washington, Oregon, or Alaska 
2) Mike fell off his Honda ATC 3-wheeler and hit is head really hard 
3) Spam bot that has gone self-aware and off it's pre-programmed Viagra
sales script 

I'm not sure there is a 4th choice. 

-Alan 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 23 11:17:13 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:17:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <627ad1bd1ea7fc643aa53f963f0773a9@alanlee.org>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com> <627ad1bd1ea7fc643aa53f963f0773a9@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602230914190.11677@shell.lmi.net>

>> Can someone explain this list reply to me what what it has to do with AT&T minis?
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, Alan Hightower wrote:
> 1) Mike lives in Colorado, Washington, Oregon, or Alaska
> 2) Mike fell off his Honda ATC 3-wheeler and hit is head really hard
> 3) Spam bot that has gone self-aware and off it's pre-programmed Viagra
> sales script
> I'm not sure there is a 4th choice.

4)  It's a metaphor.  "They" have tried for a long time to suppress the 
right of the people to use AT&T 3B2!  Like the Honda ATC 3-wheeler, the 
AT&T 3B2 afficionados shall never give up.



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 12:00:01 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:00:01 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+de1H_D-GTcX4UoNOovVRwk2ADOXvf88jFQZ1-wub_-v1w@mail.gmail.com>

>> - *Mike's Honda ATC 3wheeler Shop for LIFE!!!*
>
>
> Can someone explain this list reply to me what what it has to do with AT&T
> minis?

Yes.

If I ever get my hands on a 3B2 of any size, I would happily hook it
up to a Honda three-wheeler and drag it along a rough gravel road
until it was nothing more that unrecognizable lump if raw steel.

I hated using a 3B2.

--
Will

From cctalk at snarc.net  Tue Feb 23 12:06:38 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:06:38 -0500
Subject: Wes Clark died yesterday
Message-ID: <56CC9FAE.4080802@snarc.net>

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/wesley-a-clark-legendary-computer-engineer-dies-at-88/

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Tue Feb 23 12:16:18 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:16:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <CANij+de1H_D-GTcX4UoNOovVRwk2ADOXvf88jFQZ1-wub_-v1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
 <CANij+de1H_D-GTcX4UoNOovVRwk2ADOXvf88jFQZ1-wub_-v1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231015380.17381@orthanc.ca>

> If I ever get my hands on a 3B2 of any size, I would happily hook it
> up to a Honda three-wheeler and drag it along a rough gravel road
> until it was nothing more that unrecognizable lump if raw steel.
>
> I hated using a 3B2.

Heh.  You obviously never net the 3B4000.

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Tue Feb 23 12:17:15 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231015380.17381@orthanc.ca>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
 <CANij+de1H_D-GTcX4UoNOovVRwk2ADOXvf88jFQZ1-wub_-v1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231015380.17381@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231017030.17381@orthanc.ca>

> Heh.  You obviously never net the 3B4000.

s/net/met/ :-P

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 12:19:03 2016
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:19:03 -0500
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231015380.17381@orthanc.ca>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com>
 <CANij+de1H_D-GTcX4UoNOovVRwk2ADOXvf88jFQZ1-wub_-v1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1602231015380.17381@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <CANij+de=5H0tZe8fqX4f4RGeN9QCQVXREgKWz5ROLQKVjNkopg@mail.gmail.com>

I assume a 3B4000 is too big for a Honda three wheeler. That is OK -
the CSX mainline is not too far away.

--
Will

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:
>> If I ever get my hands on a 3B2 of any size, I would happily hook it
>> up to a Honda three-wheeler and drag it along a rough gravel road
>> until it was nothing more that unrecognizable lump if raw steel.
>>
>> I hated using a 3B2.
>
>
> Heh.  You obviously never net the 3B4000.

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Feb 23 12:41:08 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:41:08 +0000
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Ethan Dicks
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:23 AM

> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)

Ethan,

You should know better.  Zork originated on a PDP-10 running ITS.  I first
encountered it on a TOPS-20 system, since the folks at the Dynamic Modeling
Lab ported their variant of Lisp to TENEX and TOPS-20.

It's publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the
office hours check from the startup program years and years and year ago.

:-) :-) :-) :-) <-- for the humor-impaired.

                                                                Rich

P.S. There is also a copy of EMPIRE, though I think there's a problem under
the modern monitor.  Probably would work fine on a KS running 4.1.


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 23 12:43:21 2016
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The AT&T 3B2 is still proprietary
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602230914190.11677@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20160222200445.GA3288@loomcom.com> <56CB9153.8060307@sydex.com>
 <CAFnE5TP1mqHmFxsc_+=Z5L7HPf-mRm=xvn1RhXBd24N-yy1X2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC8CB7.7050802@sydex.com> <627ad1bd1ea7fc643aa53f963f0773a9@alanlee.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602230914190.11677@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1602231042530.27402@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> Can someone explain this list reply to me what what it has to do with AT&T 
>>> minis?
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, Alan Hightower wrote:
>> 1) Mike lives in Colorado, Washington, Oregon, or Alaska
>> 2) Mike fell off his Honda ATC 3-wheeler and hit is head really hard
>> 3) Spam bot that has gone self-aware and off it's pre-programmed Viagra
>> sales script
>> I'm not sure there is a 4th choice.
>
> 4)  It's a metaphor.  "They" have tried for a long time to suppress the right 
> of the people to use AT&T 3B2!  Like the Honda ATC 3-wheeler, the AT&T 3B2 
> afficionados shall never give up.

5) Got distracted, thought he was replying to a different message.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 12:47:09 2016
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:47:09 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=W3p_Vu4-2TGaGj9mkw3EfOD4nLOMqq-CUzVuG-SSHdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Rich Alderson
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> From: Ethan Dicks
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:23 AM
>
>> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
>
> Ethan,
>
> You should know better.

Of course I do.

>  Zork originated on a PDP-10 running ITS.

Of course it did.

> I first
> encountered it on a TOPS-20 system, since the folks at the Dynamic Modeling
> Lab ported their variant of Lisp to TENEX and TOPS-20.

I didn't get to play it on 36-bit hardware until you gave me an
account.  I've also run it on the klh10/Panda distro.

> It's publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the
> office hours check from the startup program years and years and year ago.

I can easily set people up in front of a real tube on a Linux box and
telnet through to the Toad-2.

> P.S. There is also a copy of EMPIRE, though I think there's a problem under
> the modern monitor.  Probably would work fine on a KS running 4.1.

I'm sure I have EMPIRE for VMS on pretty much any VAX I have ever set
up.  I was just reading up that there's a modern re-implementation in
C but it looks extended from the game I remember (satellites, in
particular, I don't recall from 1986).

-ethan

From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Tue Feb 23 12:53:30 2016
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:53:30 +0000
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

On 23/02/2016 16:23, "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
> terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
> classics are:
> 
> Adventure
> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
> Scott Adams Adventures
> Wumpus
> Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
> Empire
> Star Trek
> rogue/hack
> Larn/Ularn

ADVENT on RT11 and I remember a VMS game that I might still have kicking
around on one of my VAXen called MONSTA which had a slightly more difficult
variant as MONSTB. Oh and WUMPUS of course.

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Feb 23 12:57:39 2016
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:57:39 -0700
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <20160223024245.GC6201@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160223024245.GC6201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CCABA3.3030306@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/22/2016 7:42 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, ben wrote:
>> Where are all to portable compilers and assemblers source code???
>> Oh wait you have to pay good money for them back then?.
>> OH now we can't be bothered to support the small machines,
>> sorry no source for that. My biggest gripe for Minux
>> other than the racoon mascot.
>
> Hey, we all know a raccoon makes a great mascot. Better than a penguin,
> daemon, or puffer fish :)
>

I like demons ... :)
That is why they go with big PDP 11's, you never know just what was sold 
to you.
Ben.

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 13:15:18 2016
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:15:18 -0800
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CCABA3.3030306@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160223024245.GC6201@gmail.com>
 <56CCABA3.3030306@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CANV78LR3C=hUcbtHgmDGbYVCHbtDtsgHRZjW=jnj61U+vsgMrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:57 AM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

> On 2/22/2016 7:42 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, ben wrote:
>>
>>> Where are all to portable compilers and assemblers source code???
>>> Oh wait you have to pay good money for them back then?.
>>> OH now we can't be bothered to support the small machines,
>>> sorry no source for that. My biggest gripe for Minux
>>> other than the racoon mascot.
>>>
>>
>> Hey, we all know a raccoon makes a great mascot. Better than a penguin,
>> daemon, or puffer fish :)
>>
>>
> I like demons ... :)
> That is why they go with big PDP 11's, you never know just what was sold
> to you.


And let us not forget the wombat, beloved of the VMS RDBMS.

"PLOT WOMBAT"

-- Charles

>
> Ben.
>

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 13:25:03 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:25:03 -0600
Subject: Wes Clark died yesterday
In-Reply-To: <56CC9FAE.4080802@snarc.net>
References: <56CC9FAE.4080802@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21YGgJoAK+7e+rhRnQPfc_jGJh_y8Z2fkE48tPkKSjG4A@mail.gmail.com>

Rip
On Feb 23, 2016 12:06 PM, "Evan Koblentz" <cctalk at snarc.net> wrote:

>
> http://www.techrepublic.com/article/wesley-a-clark-legendary-computer-engineer-dies-at-88/
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 14:04:07 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:04:07 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKif0ywTt4rLRkXSWQKTMiRU-adWAQerznerTiaJUd+zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rich Alderson
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> From: Ethan Dicks
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:23 AM
>
>> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
>
> Ethan,
>
> You should know better.  Zork originated on a PDP-10 running ITS.  I first
> encountered it on a TOPS-20 system, since the folks at the Dynamic Modeling
> Lab ported their variant of Lisp to TENEX and TOPS-20.
>
> It's publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the
> office hours check from the startup program years and years and year ago.
>

Do you have Haunt running there? I'll have to figure out how to get
that running on emulation or real hardware sometime.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb 23 14:33:01 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:33:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Wes Clark died yesterday
Message-ID: <20160223203301.4AD1D18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Evan Koblentz

Now I'm triply bummed that he was sick, and didn't manage to make it to the
last VCF East.

He was one of the giants - somewhat unsung, but a giant. RIP.

	Noel

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 15:46:21 2016
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 15:46:21 -0600
Subject: NeWS video(s) with James Gosling?
Message-ID: <CADyB93AR1ORnWJJje7s2sP0r=4cDNxv+GJOtKRQeGettKsvgQw@mail.gmail.com>

Would anyone out there happen to know the whereabouts of one or more
specific videos that were hosted on the Microsoft research web site maybe
10-15 years ago, starring James Gosling, where he talked about NeWS
(Network extensible Window System)?

I may even be able to dig up the URL for the video(s) when I get home, but
it's been dead for a long time now.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Feb 23 16:33:03 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 22:33:03 +0000
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKif0ywTt4rLRkXSWQKTMiRU-adWAQerznerTiaJUd+zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAM2UOwKif0ywTt4rLRkXSWQKTMiRU-adWAQerznerTiaJUd+zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB968B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Glen Slick
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 12:04 PM

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Rich Alderson
> <RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:

>>  publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the
>> office hours check from the startup program years and years and year ago.

> Do you have Haunt running there? I'll have to figure out how to get
> that running on emulation or real hardware sometime.

I've never gotten HAUNT to run (well, maybe once, c. 1982).  It's a Tops-10
program that doesn't play well with PA1050, that OS emulation package that
maps Tops-10 I/O to TENEX/TOPS-20.  I should try putting it on the Dec-10
here.  In my copious spare time.

                                                                Rich



Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From macro at linux-mips.org  Tue Feb 23 16:41:06 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 22:41:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFtD2qhhk3WJCOemfM4f-PCkoFvamibFxTF99BtAuH2QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
 <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
 <CAMTenCFtD2qhhk3WJCOemfM4f-PCkoFvamibFxTF99BtAuH2QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602232228460.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, Liam Proven wrote:

> POWER chips are still going strong but they're big and run hot taking
> lots of power. Apple needed a CPU line that could offer good notebook
> chips as well as desktop chips, and POWER (and PowerPC) was only
> addressing desktop devices.

 Are you sure?  I've seen plenty of Freescale cores going pretty low as 
far as power consumption goes, like their whole e200 line to start from 
the very low end, but there's also e6500 for example if you want 64 bits 
and more processing power.  And then plenty of choice in between.

  Maciej

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 17:07:59 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:07:59 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93CGRL+2Mn=qgEBj8Def2nCcRuz2NWzUdVHRSA6+oZb3Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93CGRL+2Mn=qgEBj8Def2nCcRuz2NWzUdVHRSA6+oZb3Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd78w-GuwHWeN7+uCuO20r3f6OBe1cDcuS24WLaKBPs5pQ@mail.gmail.com>

"OK, so the presence of that parallel port has nothing to do with imaging
copy-protected disks, as I thought?

Now that I think about it, maybe some particular nibbling software (mnib or
the like) just requires the parallel port, probably for speed reasons or
whatever."

As I say, I'm only aware of using the second parallel port to speed disk
transfers, and in that capacity it's really excellent. If it has other
uses, that's new info to me.. since I never need to copy protected
originals, I've never looked into it.

Once the hardware is in place, open CBM auto-detects the presence of the
parallel connection as an "XP-1541" setup, vs. XM-1541 using only the
serial cable. No further configuration is required, it just reads & writes
at like 4-5X the speed.


On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Eric Christopherson <
echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:17 AM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I know of no way, probing only with the PC & software, to determine which
> > type of X-1541 cable you might have. However, wiring diagrams for +all+
> > versions are freely available, and it shouldn't be any great effort to
> open
> > up and - with the help of a multimeter - examine a given cable and
> compare
> > it against the various arrangements.
> >
> > The 1541-side parallel port is totally optional, and it is not required
> to
> > produce a working setup.
>
>
> OK, so the presence of that parallel port has nothing to do with imaging
> copy-protected disks, as I thought?
>
> Now that I think about it, maybe some particular nibbling software (mnib or
> the like) just requires the parallel port, probably for speed reasons or
> whatever.
>
>
> > However, when coupled with an appropriate cable,
> > drives equipped with the parallel connector operate several times faster
> > than even the fastest non-parallel setups. That said, any of the X-1541
> > setups will tend to run a fair bit faster than a genuine Commodre IEC
> bus,
> > so unless you plan to do a +lot+ of transfer, don't worry about going the
> > parallel route.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Eric Christopherson <
> > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, drlegendre . wrote:
> > > > I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux..
> here's
> > > > what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
> > > >
> > > > First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a
> .D64
> > > (or
> > > > other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a
> > 1541
> > > > (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the
> > various
> > > > X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd
> suggest
> > > > using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased,
> or,
> > > > with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of a way, from Linux, to determine the particular
> > > species of one of those cables? I bought mine years ago and no longer
> > > remember which it is (and it isn't marked). I assume it's XM, since I'm
> > > sure I intended it for use in Linux when I bought it, but I'd like to
> be
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port on
> > the
> > > > PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a userland
> > > > driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc.
> > original
> > > > SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read images
> > of
> > > > the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..
> > >
> > > Somewhere I picked up the idea that for that you would need a cable
> that
> > > connects, not only to the serial IEC port of the drive, but to a
> > > parallel port which you must DIY on the drive. Would someone mind
> > > chiming in here -- I don't understand how that would do anything other
> > > than making the transfer faster? I know that on the software side you
> > > specifically need nibbling tools, like mnib.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image
> to
> > > the
> > > > SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 &
> floppies,
> > > so
> > > > wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure
> it's
> > > very
> > > > well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware - right?
> =)
> > >
> > > The SD card devices all use Ingo Korb's SD2IEC software, as far as I
> > > know.  The main source of documentation I know of is at
> > > <https://www.sd2iec.de/gitweb/?p=sd2iec.git;a=blob;f=README;hb=HEAD>.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a
> SD
> > > card
> > > > >> if so please enplane how it is done
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD
> card
> > > to a
> > > > > Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read
> the
> > > > > commodore disk on a PC.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >         Eric Christopherson
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>         Eric Christopherson
>

From macro at linux-mips.org  Tue Feb 23 17:09:15 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 23:09:15 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
In-Reply-To: <201602221426.JAA10722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to>
 <201602221426.JAA10722@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602232244570.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:

> These and many of the other stop conditions could possibly be subsumed
> by a "stop when this expression evaluates true" facility, with
> expression primitives capable of representing all the things you might
> want to watch.  It would of course be CPU-intensive if the expression
> is complicated, but that's unavoidable, and I have occasionally wished
> for "run until this number is greater than that number plus twice this
> register" or the like, even if it runs multiple orders of magnitude
> slower.  (Not when running under RT-11, but that's mostly because I
> have done little-to-no work under RT-11 at all.)

 This is exactly how GDB's watchpoint facility works BTW.  Except from the 
very simple case of watching a memory location, which in some processors 
can be delegated to a hardware watchpoint facility, GDB implements this by 
single-stepping the debuggee repeatedly, which of course hits performance 
enormously.  Then, whether through single-stepping or as a result of a 
hardware watchpoint hit, it stops the debuggee and returns control to the 
user whenever the watchpoint condition evaluates to true.  Any expression 
valid in the high-level language chosen for debugging (which is usually 
the same as one the debuggee has been compiled from) can be used as a 
condition, also for breakpoints, and you can refer to hardware registers, 
which are presented as special variables (side effects work too!).

 As a matter of interest some embedded MIPS processors have more complex 
hardware watchpoint support in which certain conditions can actually be 
presented to hardware as a chain of prerequisites for a watchpoint hit.  
This facility is available for JTAG debugging only and support has never 
been implemented in GDB, although JTAG debugging itself is supported in 
GDB with the use of a suitable remote debug stub (or more precisely GDB 
does not care what it talks to as long as it speaks GDB's language, aka 
Remote Serial Protocol).

 FWIW,

  Maciej

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 20:51:32 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 20:51:32 -0600
Subject: Copying from a floppy to an SD card?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd78w-GuwHWeN7+uCuO20r3f6OBe1cDcuS24WLaKBPs5pQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93CGRL+2Mn=qgEBj8Def2nCcRuz2NWzUdVHRSA6+oZb3Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd78w-GuwHWeN7+uCuO20r3f6OBe1cDcuS24WLaKBPs5pQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7TaF091a19r+-WfMYfMd7PCSpxD2fPT95FMV-ekywD-A@mail.gmail.com>

FYI, it's really no great shakes to install the parallel port on the CBM
1541 drive, and likewise, to modify the XM-1541 cable to work with it.

Parts wise, all you need is a PC gameport header with the DB 15-pin port /
ribbon cable, and the cable from an old / disused / dos era PC game
controller.

The female connector on the header becomes the 1541-side connector. and the
game controller cable joins the CBM IEC cable on the DB25 parallel port
connector. Three are good online documents that have all of the diagrams.
You might find however, that one or two lines on your game controller cable
are not populated - so you'll have to juggle one, possibly two connections
to make a working setup.

I know several guys using old game controller cables for the parallel link,
and none report any problems.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 5:07 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> "OK, so the presence of that parallel port has nothing to do with imaging
> copy-protected disks, as I thought?
>
> Now that I think about it, maybe some particular nibbling software (mnib or
> the like) just requires the parallel port, probably for speed reasons or
> whatever."
>
> As I say, I'm only aware of using the second parallel port to speed disk
> transfers, and in that capacity it's really excellent. If it has other
> uses, that's new info to me.. since I never need to copy protected
> originals, I've never looked into it.
>
> Once the hardware is in place, open CBM auto-detects the presence of the
> parallel connection as an "XP-1541" setup, vs. XM-1541 using only the
> serial cable. No further configuration is required, it just reads & writes
> at like 4-5X the speed.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Eric Christopherson <
> echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:17 AM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I know of no way, probing only with the PC & software, to determine
>> which
>> > type of X-1541 cable you might have. However, wiring diagrams for +all+
>> > versions are freely available, and it shouldn't be any great effort to
>> open
>> > up and - with the help of a multimeter - examine a given cable and
>> compare
>> > it against the various arrangements.
>> >
>> > The 1541-side parallel port is totally optional, and it is not required
>> to
>> > produce a working setup.
>>
>>
>> OK, so the presence of that parallel port has nothing to do with imaging
>> copy-protected disks, as I thought?
>>
>> Now that I think about it, maybe some particular nibbling software (mnib
>> or
>> the like) just requires the parallel port, probably for speed reasons or
>> whatever.
>>
>>
>> > However, when coupled with an appropriate cable,
>> > drives equipped with the parallel connector operate several times faster
>> > than even the fastest non-parallel setups. That said, any of the X-1541
>> > setups will tend to run a fair bit faster than a genuine Commodre IEC
>> bus,
>> > so unless you plan to do a +lot+ of transfer, don't worry about going
>> the
>> > parallel route.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Eric Christopherson <
>> > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016, drlegendre . wrote:
>> > > > I do a fair amount of cross-C64 work, but all of it's on Linux..
>> here's
>> > > > what I can tell you, much of which applies to MS/Win as well.
>> > > >
>> > > > First you need a method of reading the original C-64 floppy into a
>> .D64
>> > > (or
>> > > > other supported) image. This requires +four+ basic things - a PC, a
>> > 1541
>> > > > (or compatible) drive, a supporting software suite and one of the
>> > various
>> > > > X-1541 cables. These days, with modern multi-tasking OSes, I'd
>> suggest
>> > > > using nothing but the XM-1541 cable design. These may be purchased,
>> or,
>> > > > with a little time & effort, built up by the DIY-er.
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone know of a way, from Linux, to determine the particular
>> > > species of one of those cables? I bought mine years ago and no longer
>> > > remember which it is (and it isn't marked). I assume it's XM, since
>> I'm
>> > > sure I intended it for use in Linux when I bought it, but I'd like to
>> be
>> > > sure.
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The XM-1541 cable connects the CBM 1541 drive to the parallel port
>> on
>> > the
>> > > > PC. The software suite (I highly suggest OpenCBM!) acts as a
>> userland
>> > > > driver / utility suite, allowing you to read, write, format etc.
>> > original
>> > > > SS/SD disks on the 1541 drive. Once you have successfully read
>> images
>> > of
>> > > > the disk(s), then it's up to you how you handle them..
>> > >
>> > > Somewhere I picked up the idea that for that you would need a cable
>> that
>> > > connects, not only to the serial IEC port of the drive, but to a
>> > > parallel port which you must DIY on the drive. Would someone mind
>> > > chiming in here -- I don't understand how that would do anything other
>> > > than making the transfer faster? I know that on the software side you
>> > > specifically need nibbling tools, like mnib.
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > If you have one of the SD-based systems, simply copy over the image
>> to
>> > > the
>> > > > SD and you're good! I don't use SD card, just original 1541 &
>> floppies,
>> > > so
>> > > > wouldn't have much help for that end of the process. But I'm sure
>> it's
>> > > very
>> > > > well documented by the vendor of the SD-card drive hardware -
>> right? =)
>> > >
>> > > The SD card devices all use Ingo Korb's SD2IEC software, as far as I
>> > > know.  The main source of documentation I know of is at
>> > > <https://www.sd2iec.de/gitweb/?p=sd2iec.git;a=blob;f=README;hb=HEAD>.
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mike wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Is there a way to copy a disk from a commodore floppy drive to a
>> SD
>> > > card
>> > > > >> if so please enplane how it is done
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You need a machine that supports both formats.  Either add an SD
>> card
>> > > to a
>> > > > > Commodore, or do appropriate special cabling and software to read
>> the
>> > > > > commodore disk on a PC.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >         Eric Christopherson
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>         Eric Christopherson
>>
>
>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 21:11:27 2016
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:11:27 -0800
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>

I was wondering if I should add a 4952 to my HP collection. It's tempting, these are cute machines. But except if I am using synchronous RS232, I was not sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal emulator and a serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise? What do you guys use it for?
Marc

> On Feb 22, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
> equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
> analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
> the LA is great for what I work on).
> 
> However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
> analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them [...]
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb 23 21:50:07 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 21:50:07 -0600
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
 <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d16eb6$74315b70$5c941250$@classiccmp.org>

Marc wrote....
--------
 I was not sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal
emulator and a serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise?
What do you guys use it for?
---------
Perhaps there are terminal emulators out there that can do the following,
but I'm not aware of any that do these things that are the most common use
cases....

1) Display transmit on one line and receive on the other line, positionally
correct. Very easy to visually see what one side sent, and what the other
side replied.
2) Display the characters not just in ascii text, but in ascii mnemonics,
and better yet... binary, octal, hex. FAR easier to see what is REALLY being
transmitted and received. Ex - so if the unit is set to 81N, are the parity
bits right? You can tell visually at a glance without really thinking.
3) And given the display can be in binary, it's easy to see field values
that do not align on even count positions - ex: 8 bits where the first 3
bits mean something in the protocol, and the next field is 5 bits, etc.
4) Automatically trigger on events - ex. Watch the line until you see this
sequence from the DCE. Then insert this string as a reply, wait for this
response, then let the DTE continue. Oh, and start logging if this pattern
occurs 3 times.
5) Automatically calculate checksums by any one of a designated set of
algorithms, and verify the checksums being sent and received. Start logging,
up to 2K size, once a checksum mismatch occurs.
6) Run BERT tests to either side.
7) Often provide a breakout box to jumper and/or reroute wires.
8) Save data to a disk for later review, or print to paper.
9) Easily deal with async, sync, bsync, x.25, etc.


When writing your own communications protocols, a datascope makes
testing/troubleshooting a very quick process. The alternative ... not so
much.

Many decades ago, I had a program for DOS (that I have since lost) called
"Breakout II". It came with a cable and required two serial ports. It was a
"software" breakout box. It was sorta handy... but it was no datascope.

J
 



From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Feb 23 21:52:12 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:52:12 -0800
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
 <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CD28EC.70401@jwsss.com>



On 2/23/2016 7:11 PM, Curious Marc wrote:
> I was wondering if I should add a 4952 to my HP collection. It's tempting, these are cute machines. But except if I am using synchronous RS232, I was not sure what I would getting that a laptop with a good terminal emulator and a serial port would give me. Can you convince me otherwise? What do you guys use it for?
> Marc
>
>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've always eyed the 4952... being as my penchant is HP and much of my test
>> equipment is same-vintage HP gear (I'll give a vote for the 1631D logic
>> analyzer, combo LA and digital scope - the scope is sorta poor, but handy -
>> the LA is great for what I work on).
>>
>> However, I spent a significant portion of my career in front of a serial
>> analyzer so I'm pretty familiar with them [...]
>>
>> J
For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.  It is an 8 bit logic 
analyzer, but that just means you get 8 capture channels.

It will do any combination of serial, I2C, and SPI out of the box. CAN 
bus is extra.  Recording capacity is till the disk fills up.

You can export traces to files of text.

You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed 
for 3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.

A note on knockoffs.  Please buy the original if you can, as the company 
has not cut off the use of their software with knockoffs of the 
analyzer.  (Off topic of this thread, open new thread if it is something 
to reply to, please)

Thanks
jim


From gerardcjat at free.fr  Tue Feb 23 13:43:20 2016
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 20:43:20 +0100
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
Message-ID: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>

Just curious.
It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
Am I correct in my view ?

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 09:08:45 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:08:45 -0500
Subject: VMS 5.5 and multinet 4.1 SMTP Question
In-Reply-To: <01PX0YAQRQAC00C8KE@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CABGJBudpzxPmXMiLNPL-cV--1+mb0QS7aLZdbqZ0OdFz96JhQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PX064A5SNO00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CABGJBudUz7jogmERTdwB9k5TtjvFqYhoBwXhY-YmM38XAYto3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PX0YAQRQAC00C8KE@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuc1rXTLEz96MuZb4mVHLncdMTgxBd_nb=jBk_+1fSpsJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
wrote:

> >
> > Thanks for your reply.  My error I meant send email to
> > system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
> >
>
> Multinet is an excellent TCP/IP stack but the SMTP server included with it
> is a bit limited and V4.1 is old.  If you allow it to accept SMTP mail
> directly
> from the internet, it may be difficult or impossible to secure it against
> exploitation as a spam relay which would cause lots of problems for others
> as well as yourself.
>
> Having said that, it should be possible to feed mail to it from a more
> capable
> internet facing SMTP mail server or set it up to send/receive SMTP mail on
> your
> internal network only.
>
> To do this, you don't need the DECnet to SMTP mail gateway you mentioned.
> If
> this was configured on your machine, it may have been used to allow the
> machine
> running Multinet SMTP to accept mail from the internet and pass it on to
> other
> DECnet connected machines which did not run SMTP.
>
> I don't know what MULTINET:MR_CONFIGURE.COM is but "MR" suggests it might
> be
> something to do with ALL-IN-1 mail rather than VMS MAIL.  If you want to
> run
> ALL-IN-1 mail, this is very different to using VMS MAIL.
>
> Everything you need to route SMTP mail to/from VMS MAIL on your machine
> should
> be provided by:
>
> $ MULTINET CONFIGURE /MAIL
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>

Peter,
I won't be leaving this box up perpetually for sure.  I have a 4000-200
with a newer version of MULTINET and VMS that allows a person to send and
receive mail with "normal" email addresses but even that one is only left
running occasionally.  I watch attempts every few minutes to probe it from
the outside world, sheesh, bots.

> MULTINET CONFIG /MAIL

This is what I use to compare the mVax3100 and my 4000-200.  I could not
find anything other than the versions of the services to explain why one
could not use simpler email addressing (bill at emaildomain.com).

Basically, the 3100 with it's older multinet and VMS "works as designed"
which for now is fine with me.  I just wanted to be sure I did not need to
perform a trick everyone but me knows about to streamline email, other than
simply upgrade these services.

Thanks again for your reply.

Bill



-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 12:46:01 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:46:01 -0500
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:

To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"

How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
through?  You can't simply send a message to

system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net

how would I format the email address?  I could write a PHP program to
format the header "wrong" for normal purposes but "right" for the VAX
inbound I suppose.  Any tips that don't involve creating a gateway nor
changing the target VAX itself?

Thanks

b

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Feb 23 13:48:26 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 14:48:26 -0500
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468C5CDD-4383-4B1D-BCB9-F2B8634EFE0B@comcast.net>


> On Feb 23, 2016, at 1:46 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
> Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
> one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:
> 
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
> 
> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to
> 
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
> 
> how would I format the email address?  I could write a PHP program to
> format the header "wrong" for normal purposes but "right" for the VAX
> inbound I suppose.  Any tips that don't involve creating a gateway nor
> changing the target VAX itself?

I don't remember the details of what email addresses looked like in the days when DEC was first connected to the Internet (or ARPAnet).  There was a bunch of magic at the WRL gateway (gatekeeper.dec.com -- also one of the first firewalls).  A lot of this can be done by suitable magic in sendmail.cf.  At some later time I believe that the mapping from SMTP addresses to DECmail addresses was pretty much transparent, so you could indeed send that simple address  you mentioned.  Earlier on it was something like "ark::[1,211]"@decwrl.dec.com or perhaps kremvax!decwrl!ark!1,211 ...

	paul



From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Feb 23 13:06:55 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:06:55 +0000 (WET)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:46:01 -0500"
 <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PX1B7PMFJ800BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
> Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
> one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:
>
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
>
> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through? You can't simply send a message to
>
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
>
> how would I format the email address?  I could write a PHP program to
> format the header "wrong" for normal purposes but "right" for the VAX
> inbound I suppose.  Any tips that don't involve creating a gateway nor
> changing the target VAX itself?
>

Assuming they are configured correctly, VMS and Multinet are enough to make
your MicroVAX 3100 behave like any other SMTP mail server.  What you are
missing is a way of telling gmail (or wherever else you want to send the
mails from) how to route the mails to your MicroVAX 3100.

To do this, you need an "MX" record or "A" record in the DNS that specifies
the domain name and ip address of your MicroVAX 3100.  When this is put in the
DNS, any SMTP based mail server can look it up and find out where to send mail
for your domain to.  For example, something like this in the DNS zone file for
vintagecomputer.net:

microvax3100 in mx 10 microvax3100
microvax3100 in a a.b.c.d

where a.b.c.d is the ip address the MicroVAX 3100 is configured with. (If the
machine lives behind a firewall, the ip address should be an external ip
address of the firewall and a suitable rule on the firewall should direct tcp
port 25 traffic to the internal ip address of the MicroVAX 3100.)

As I mentioned it before, I wouldn't do it this way because spammers will find
it and abuse it.  A better way would be to configure a more capable mail server
(such as the mail server that already handles mail for vintagecomputer.net) to
accept mail for microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net and forward it to the ip
address of the MicroVAX 3100.  The DNS entries would then point to this extra
mail server instead of directly to the MicroVAX itself.

To test that everying is configured correctly on the MicroVAX, you can telnet
to port 25 on the MicroVAX from itself or some other machine on the same
network and manually type in an SMTP mail, something like this:

telnet a.b.c.d /port=25 (from VMS)
telnet a.b.c.d 25       (from unix or Windows)

When you get the SMTP banner, enter this:

HELO domain
MAIL FROM:<postmaster at somewhere.com>
RCPT TO:<system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net>
DATA
From: postmaster at somewhere.com
To:   system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net

Test message
.
QUIT

(The second last line is a period on it's own with no spaces.)

The Multinet telnet client will allow you to correct mistakes using DELETE but
many other telnet clients will mess up if you don't get everything exactly
right first time, so type carefully.

Then log in to SYSTEM and check for mail.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb 23 14:08:48 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 14:08:48 -0600
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
In-Reply-To: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
References: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <003001d16e76$01bfd340$053f79c0$@classiccmp.org>

GerardCJAT wrote...
-------
It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
Am I correct in my view ?	
-------
Not to minimize those that love the A/L stuff.... but I suspect you are
correct in general terms, statistically. But I do know there are some folks
lurking that are familiar with that era.

I myself started to look at the A series as the instruction set had mostly
similar instructions (ie. A superset). But then I saw that was the sum total
of the similarity, and did not proceed further. I'm content to focus on 21MX
and prior ;)

J



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 14:09:56 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:09:56 -0800
Subject: Who, on this list, Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L
 series ??
In-Reply-To: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
References: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+rhTJyg27QDANkRvayK9Rx_2L7VmVjHA7eRLatRdZrfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:43 AM, GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr> wrote:
> Just curious.
> It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
> Am I correct in my view ?

I have an HP 1000 A900, the second fastest A Series after the A990. I
need to get RTE-A running on it sometime.

I also have a bare A400 CPU with just the 4-port console/mux cable.
Maybe I could cobble up a two slot backplane to get a minimum system
with a 12009A HP-IB interface.

-Glen

From guy at cuillin.org.uk  Tue Feb 23 14:15:34 2016
From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 20:15:34 +0000
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE11GVba6Mjzc-FR1xbieAjNYmnNxM_LADvxYyaJ_V+E3vxV7Q@mail.gmail.com>

A quick surf and I see that MultiNet is a TCP/IP and associated utilities
stack for VAX/VMS.

So, I assume your VAX has TCP/IP connectivity to a bigger network  (
vintagecomputer.net) and you can ping to and from the VAX.

Is an SMTP server running on the VAX? If so, from the bigger network can
you telnet to port 25 of the VAX? You should be talking to the SMTP server
and then basically, yes, you can email
system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net.

The SMTP server might need some configuration to map SMTP email addresses
to VAX user accounts.

On 23 February 2016 at 18:46, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
> Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
> one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:
>
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
>
> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to
>
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
>
> how would I format the email address?  I could write a PHP program to
> format the header "wrong" for normal purposes but "right" for the VAX
> inbound I suppose.  Any tips that don't involve creating a gateway nor
> changing the target VAX itself?
>
> Thanks
>
> b
>
> --
> @ BillDeg:
> Web: vintagecomputer.net
> Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
> Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
> Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
>



-- 
4.4 > 5.4

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Tue Feb 23 16:48:52 2016
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 23:48:52 +0100
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
In-Reply-To: <003001d16e76$01bfd340$053f79c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
 <003001d16e76$01bfd340$053f79c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <002501d16e8c$5f71b7e0$1e5527a0$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West
> Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2016 21:09
> Aan: 'GerardCJAT'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'
> Onderwerp: RE: Who, on this list, Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A
or L
> series ??
> 
> GerardCJAT wrote...
> -------
> It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
> Am I correct in my view ?
> -------
> Not to minimize those that love the A/L stuff.... but I suspect you are
correct in
> general terms, statistically. But I do know there are some folks lurking
that are
> familiar with that era.
> 
> I myself started to look at the A series as the instruction set had mostly
similar
> instructions (ie. A superset). But then I saw that was the sum total of
the
> similarity, and did not proceed further. I'm content to focus on 21MX and
prior ;)
> 
> J
I've a few A-series systems, and like to have an L-system once (just because
of the technology jump to silicon on sapphire)
But at the moment, they're just waiting for attention ;)

-Rik


From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 18:28:55 2016
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:28:55 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=8k6xYaH8OPyDNiZj=_gT-LXrL17S73Zr0Lw8MiyLAv=Q@mail.gmail.com>

The PDP-11 at the RICM says "dec pdp 11" on the system configuration paper
label on the back, and "M11 15" and "4720" on the metal tag. Unfortunately
it has an OEM front panel.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 18:47:37 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:47:37 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=8k6xYaH8OPyDNiZj=_gT-LXrL17S73Zr0Lw8MiyLAv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=8k6xYaH8OPyDNiZj=_gT-LXrL17S73Zr0Lw8MiyLAv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudZ6eH_e=7w97=55wqtTLuNfWqt6LZ+iNa03RZbreS2pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> The PDP-11 at the RICM says "dec pdp 11" on the system configuration paper
> label on the back, and "M11 15" and "4720" on the metal tag. Unfortunately
> it has an OEM front panel.
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
>


are  you sure its not H720 rather than 4720?  H720 would be the type of
power supply from an original 11.  M11 15 would seem like the OEM 11/20
after they abandoned the 11/10 model.  My hunch would be the date code is
late 1970 early 1971.
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From brian at meadows.pair.com  Wed Feb 24 01:05:37 2016
From: brian at meadows.pair.com (brian)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 02:05:37 -0500
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
In-Reply-To: <002501d16e8c$5f71b7e0$1e5527a0$@xs4all.nl>
References: <EDF811ED7ED341D5B7F2B4420ADF1D01@PortableLENOVO>
 <003001d16e76$01bfd340$053f79c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <002501d16e8c$5f71b7e0$1e5527a0$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <mailman.35.1456303639.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 23:48:52 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West
>> Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2016 21:09
>> Aan: 'GerardCJAT'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'
>> Onderwerp: RE: Who, on this list, Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A
>or L
>> series ??
>> 
>> GerardCJAT wrote...
>> -------
>> It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
>> Am I correct in my view ?
>> -------
>> Not to minimize those that love the A/L stuff.... but I suspect you are
>correct in
>> general terms, statistically. But I do know there are some folks lurking
>that are
>> familiar with that era.
>> 
>> I myself started to look at the A series as the instruction set had mostly
>similar
>> instructions (ie. A superset). But then I saw that was the sum total of
>the
>> similarity, and did not proceed further. I'm content to focus on 21MX and
>prior ;)
>> 
>> J
>I've a few A-series systems, and like to have an L-system once (just because
>of the technology jump to silicon on sapphire)
>But at the moment, they're just waiting for attention ;)
>
The hardware unfortunately disappeared when my previous employer went
broke (I would have offered to buy it, as I was freelancing by then)
but the dear old HP-1000A brings back memories. We used to write
laboratory systems software in FORTRAN-77 to interface with the LAS
(Laboratory Automation System) and LABSAM (Laboratory Sampling and
Management) packages which H-P sold as their combined laboratory
software offering. Unfortunately Y2K put paid to LABSAM, H-P decided
it wasn't worth updating it, although they kept LAS staggering along
for a final year. We did a five man-year project for a major
pharmaceutical company, writing an add-on chromatography calculations
package with just the FORTRAN compiler and H-P's FORMS/1000 screen
management library. 

Happy days!

Brian. 

From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 08:49:38 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:49:38 -0500
Subject: Fleet Sheet 2+ 1990
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtbPaHjxEzqUytJeBmTmmMSUqkHYOwrofZM6muM-6CYb5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56CB4B78.5030105@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602221639320.7502@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFjrmd5GnviUCWvWXU2h7N38E_y3q0UB1oUMpyzYdtNud=0QOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160223025450.GD6201@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6i4POHD20oAJNLuSrGA2EQzLrcXNP8v4VF7NRSHkR2nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC03F2.5010107@sydex.com>
 <CAJ_iqtbPaHjxEzqUytJeBmTmmMSUqkHYOwrofZM6muM-6CYb5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CC7182.3090404@gmail.com>



On 02/23/2016 07:51 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> I'm occasionally called on to transfer some of the C64 floppies.  I have a
>> 1571 and have cobbled up the XM interface connected to a DB25F permanently
>> mounted on the drive.  That way, I can use a "straight through" cable to the
>> parallel port of the host PC without thinking about what I might need.
>> Works fine; I get use it about once every 3-4 years.
>>
>> I suppose it might be possible to rig something more elaborate up using a
>> small MCU and a USB cable, but the need doesn't justify the effort.
> FWIW, I use a ZoomFloppy[1] connected to a 1571. OpenCBM is my choice
> for software.
> Only used occasionally :)
>
> References:
> 1) http://www.go4retro.com/products/zoomfloppy/
Thank you all for the info that seem like a lot of work I think I found
the problem and I know your gonna laugh I have the floppy's here...

http://tinypic.com/r/11w7sw8/9

http://tinypic.com/r/344a1bq/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2exoms7/9

And here is the book or user manual I have...

http://tinypic.com/r/25hjzm8/9

http://tinypic.com/r/2rcwcoo/9

Now in the book there are many more options than on the disks that I can
use even the seyup file looks different. I hjave looked everywhere on
the web for a 2nd  version but on the disks and the book they both say "
Fleet System 2+ " doens anyone or has any one ever used this software
before and If anyone can find them on the internet for download that
would be greal I think the disks were made in ...

1986

and the book was made in March of 1990...

i need the disk images from 1990 and i would gladly send who ever finds
a digital copy of the 1990 Fleet Sheet 2+ my 1986 disks... my father
bought the disks himseld he was a pastor and used them for his sermons.



From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 16:26:05 2016
From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:26:05 -0500
Subject: NeWS video(s) with James Gosling?
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93AR1ORnWJJje7s2sP0r=4cDNxv+GJOtKRQeGettKsvgQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADyB93AR1ORnWJJje7s2sP0r=4cDNxv+GJOtKRQeGettKsvgQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CCDC7D.4040607@gmail.com>



On 02/23/2016 04:46 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> deo(s) when I get home, but
> it's been dead for a long time now.
That would be fun to watch!

From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Wed Feb 24 03:18:18 2016
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:18:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Offer: HP 1611A logic state analyser with option A80 for  8080
 microprocessors
References: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello list,

I've had this HP logic state analyzer for many years now, but never found actual use for it and thus never used it. So I decided that a new home would be more suitable for it. The analyzer comes with the option to debug and analyze 8080 microporcessors. Probes are provided, but no manual. However, there is a small command overview on the front of the  keyboard. 

The system completes the selftest and I did let it run for two hours yesterday. No more tests done, but if anybody wants me to do a specific test, then I can do it, provided you explain to me what to do. 

Pictures are under 


http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/hp_1611a/

Make me an offer via private reply. Pick-up in Bonn (Germany) or international shipping possible. However, keep in mind that the system weights 13kg (29 lbs), so shipping is not going to be cheap.

Cheers,
Pierre  


 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Feb 24 04:33:52 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 05:33:52 -0500
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
Message-ID: <31ff3e.35d41614.43fee110@aol.com>

We will  be  up  for getting one  to round out the  HP display here
When I was in the biz they were out there but   we  did not  sell any parts 
for them,
 
I  remember some developer  friends  complaining that  the  A  version of  
RTE version of  the os  did  not have SESSION
 
Let us know if  you have  one  folks  even a dead  one  as it is a physical 
 display only situation
*(However if  a complete setup  running was to be  had....that  might   be  
fin  too!)
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Feb 24 04:33:52 2016
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 05:33:52 -0500
Subject: Who, on this list,
 Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A or L series ??
Message-ID: <31ff3e.35d41614.43fee110@aol.com>

We will  be  up  for getting one  to round out the  HP display here
When I was in the biz they were out there but   we  did not  sell any parts 
for them,
 
I  remember some developer  friends  complaining that  the  A  version of  
RTE version of  the os  did  not have SESSION
 
Let us know if  you have  one  folks  even a dead  one  as it is a physical 
 display only situation
*(However if  a complete setup  running was to be  had....that  might   be  
fin  too!)
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Feb 24 04:16:56 2016
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:16:56 +0000 (WET)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 23 Feb 2016 14:48:26 -0500"
 <468C5CDD-4383-4B1D-BCB9-F2B8634EFE0B@comcast.net>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PX25RBRR1K00BQKX@beyondthepale.ie>


> > How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> > like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> > through?  You can't simply send a message to
> > 
> > system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net
> > 
> > how would I format the email address?  I could write a PHP program to
> > format the header "wrong" for normal purposes but "right" for the VAX
> > inbound I suppose.  Any tips that don't involve creating a gateway nor
> > changing the target VAX itself?
>
> I don't remember the details of what email addresses looked like in the days
> when DEC was first connected to the Internet (or ARPAnet).  There was a
> bunch of magic at the WRL gateway (gatekeeper.dec.com -- also one of the
> first firewalls).  A lot of this can be done by suitable magic in
> sendmail.cf.  At some later time I believe that the mapping from SMTP
> addresses to DECmail addresses was pretty much transparent, so you could
> indeed send that simple address  you mentioned.  Earlier on it was something
> like "ark::[1,211]"@decwrl.dec.com or perhaps kremvax!decwrl!ark!1,211 ...

Multinet implements an SMTP server as per RFC821.  This delivers mail directly
into VMS MAIL mailboxes using the foreign mail protocol provided in the
VMS MAIL API.  There is no mapping between different address formats required.
The Multinet SMTP server is not as capable as a proper mail server like PMDF
but it should be possible to get it to interoperate correctly with any other
properly implemented SMTP mail server without requiring extra gateways or
header mangling.

system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net should be an acceptable email address
to the Multinet SMTP server if it is correctly configured to accept mail for the
microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net domain and the sending mail server knows how
to route mail for it.

In the early days, DEC probably needed some sort of special mapping because
they were likely already using DECnet style email addresses internally when
their connection to the internet came along.  Two different email networks
with two different addressing formats were being brought together.  This is
not the case here.  Only SMTP format addresses are being used.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 05:43:57 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 06:43:57 -0500
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbNTyazK_6B1r1FEjS0s+noo-oZjTdHvCUbRvMSyAaGrwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip
>
> Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
> have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
> switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there.... but this is as far as it gets:
>
> MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
> -r vax73058
> info: unit 0 r    file 'vax73058'
> info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
> info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com>, (C) 1984 Dan
> Ts'o <Rockefeller University>
> info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
> info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
> info: TU58 emulation start
> info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
> info: emulator started
>
> (I ctrl-c the VAX)
>
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info: <NULL> seen
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info: <NULL> seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
> info: <INIT> seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
> info: <INIT> seen
> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>
> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>
> (I ctrl-c the VAX again)
>
> info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
> info: <NULL> seen
> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
> info: <NULL> seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
> info: <INIT> seen
> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
> info: <INIT> seen
> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>
> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>
> (repeat)
>
> Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
> various options?
>
> (I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
> otherwise it's straight out of the box)

Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:

http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/

I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
serial console displays:

Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!

And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...

Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
think the problem is with tu58em...

Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
a bad one...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 05:30:14 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 06:30:14 -0500
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CAE11GVba6Mjzc-FR1xbieAjNYmnNxM_LADvxYyaJ_V+E3vxV7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVba6Mjzc-FR1xbieAjNYmnNxM_LADvxYyaJ_V+E3vxV7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue8WH6ZJ7QpkZxU+rW0W1iwNvxCWTLf5xKVW9u=kcGLPw@mail.gmail.com>

I am confident DNS is set up correctly.

I have another vax server sitting next to the microvax3100 that is using a
diff. subdomain on vintagecomputer.net and this vax sends and receives mail
without issue.  The only diff between the 3100 and the other vax server is
the other is running a newer version of multinet and vms.  All configurable
multinet settings are set the same, other than the FQDN for the mail server
itself.

I can telnet into both servers using the subdomains.

No special email address formatting is needed to send and receive email
between the outside world and the other vax server (a 4000).

If I want to send FROM the 3100 VAX I need to format the address as:

MAIL> MAIL
To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"

Works fine.

If I reply to the received message however, the postmaster of the VAX does
receive the message but rejects the address FORMAT, bad address.  The
postmaster sends the external sender a rejection email:

Bad address --
Error --
%MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification ':'

So, my question is ... If when sending from a modern Internet smtp mail
client do I have to use a special address format so my to a VAX running the
older vms/multinet can deliver it.  For example, something like

System <%"system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net">

It seems like the trick is how to format the header of the message.  As I
said before I can use php to make a custom header if I knew the trick to
formatting.

Hope that clarifies

Bill

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 07:09:28 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:09:28 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602232228460.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <FE86E1D5-BBAC-425E-823A-8731A7F5B382@nf6x.net>
 <009801d16d8f$26579540$7306bfc0$@tin.it>
 <CAMTenCFtD2qhhk3WJCOemfM4f-PCkoFvamibFxTF99BtAuH2QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602232228460.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGzF2M-O69U-q294D0SOBpqYamFF_GhtY5QH3hncomVWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 February 2016 at 23:41, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org> wrote:
>
>  Are you sure?  I've seen plenty of Freescale cores going pretty low as
> far as power consumption goes, like their whole e200 line to start from
> the very low end, but there's also e6500 for example if you want 64 bits
> and more processing power.  And then plenty of choice in between.


AFAIK, not remotely competitive with the Core 2 Duo line, which is
what Apple had in mind when it switched the Mac line's CPUs the second
time.

And whereas PowerPC Macs could run Classic MacOS in a VM, Macintels
can run Windows in a VM, which is far, far more useful. I personally
didn't like the move, but it was a smart one for the company.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 07:11:30 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:11:30 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LR3C=hUcbtHgmDGbYVCHbtDtsgHRZjW=jnj61U+vsgMrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201602221658.LAA19702@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CBBA58.9020107@jetnet.ab.ca> <20160223024245.GC6201@gmail.com>
 <56CCABA3.3030306@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CANV78LR3C=hUcbtHgmDGbYVCHbtDtsgHRZjW=jnj61U+vsgMrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF6FzaEzaVtE1AfyPnqhuFMRQyVnHXiuWgx4gw5HCanoA@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 February 2016 at 20:15, Charles Anthony
<charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And let us not forget the wombat, beloved of the VMS RDBMS.
>
> "PLOT WOMBAT"


I remember discovering WOMBAT in the Help command for RDB, and sitting
there, increasingly bemused, exploring the various options within HELP
WOMBAT... wondering if this was some surreal joke being played on
me... :-)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 07:17:52 2016
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:17:52 +0100
Subject: Minix 3 vs portability - was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine
In-Reply-To: <56CC7ED6.5090500@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTdruaYrsu_nigcnmBdMHX-d36uTaD9MQ8mWdAaiZwfqfXyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222090041.GB96535@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAGN_6pZEzYKM7YKBtK2zQzjU+fVtBXGywa_sVVkSxPa4niHUFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160222125158.GA13313@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201602221431.JAA27628@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56CB1DA3.1010203@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFAdrmmEay6jOebGsOpvNOwU_2qpnqx+awtDLOjnJ-Fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB2F3E.9090403@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFHR8a-WQu7gT8xQpWeb6w6tT2YOsKB4LBgsd7GcH8oZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CB3A27.6040509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEGPmEz3b9=ab4zCXLBp2Ea0Q_RQ=fYnOCpkR0YsLqy7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CC7ED6.5090500@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFHArW_D_Y+5GHrn5fX-T6NWHO5_fVznR1zF+uN2yp+mQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 February 2016 at 16:46, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> So where does QNX come in? Isn't that embedded rather than
> desktop/laptop/tablet?

It's also the basis of Blackberry 10, the OS on my Passport.

There is a desktop version -- I wrote about it a few years ago:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/01/25_alternative_pc_operating_systems/?page=2

It's still a free download but the company took it closed-source again
(IIRC) and the freebie download version hasn't been updated.

It was nearly the basis of the new Amiga OS:

http://www.trollaxor.com/2005/06/how-qnx-failed-amiga.html

This is after they moved away from TAOS, another stunning OS:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9806607

Where does QNX come in WRT Minix 3?

Well, while everyone focuses on failed microkernel Unices, e.g. the
HURD, or impure microkernel Unices, like Mac OS X (and AFAIK DEC
OSF/1, AKA Tru64), there's been an actual shipping true-microkernel
Unix and Posix-compatible OS, capable of running a GUI desktop,
running embedded *and* on tablets and smartphones, SMP-capable,
enviably robust, on sale since *1982*.

QNX shows it can be done. All Minix 3 has to do is replicate it as
FOSS, as Linux replicated commercial monolithic Unix kernels as FOSS.

(And Haiku recreated BeOS, and AROS recreated AmigaOS, and so on. FOSS
is arguably better at re-implementing than innovating.)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From bbrown at harpercollege.edu  Wed Feb 24 08:28:47 2016
From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:28:47 +0000
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573BEAF97@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>

A big favorite around our campus was Conquest (multi player space battle) on a vax.
-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 10:23 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:
>
>>> Computer games require all you can give them [...]
>>
>> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering 
>> games".  There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 
>> 3100-class (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, 
>> larn, hack, etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, 
>> Seahaven, Klondike...the list is long.
>
> But those are Computer Games!  Not computer games.  It is a long time 
> since I have played rogue.

I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious classics are:

Adventure
Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
Scott Adams Adventures
Wumpus
Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
Empire
Star Trek
rogue/hack
Larn/Ularn

But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly "retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11 box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear - it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).

I have the Commodore end pretty well covered.  I'm looking for suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100) terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.  So in general, anything that uses curses or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty.

-ethan

From cctalk at snarc.net  Wed Feb 24 11:30:01 2016
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 12:30:01 -0500
Subject: Wes Clark died yesterday
In-Reply-To: <20160223203301.4AD1D18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160223203301.4AD1D18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <56CDE899.2000307@snarc.net>

> Now I'm triply bummed that he was sick, and didn't manage to make it to the
> last VCF East.

If it's any consolation, Wes backed out a few weeks before the show. His 
pinch-hitter was Brian Kernighan.


> He was one of the giants - somewhat unsung, but a giant.

Exactly.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 12:59:59 2016
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 11:59:59 -0700
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <56CD28EC.70401@jwsss.com>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
 <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com>
 <56CD28EC.70401@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTe4Exou4yVTzPA3CztgFJQnVFykxD=40ucvAhFqg3Haw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.
[...]
> You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed for
> 3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.

The Saleae Logic Pro 16 (and probably the Logic Pro 8, but I haven't
checked) are designed for an operating input voltage range of +/-10V,
with an abs max rating of +/-25V. Saleae specifically states that it
can be directly connected to RS-232.

The Logic Pro models are more expensive than the other (amateur?)
models, but support analog input on all channels. I now use a Logic
Pro 16 for most of my simple logic analyzer requirements, but still
use an Agilent 16700 logic analyzer mainframe when I need more than 16
channels.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 24 13:04:46 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:04:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
Message-ID: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, what's the best short name for the pair of machines, the PDP-11/05 and
PDP-11/10 (which differ only in the nameplate)?

I have generally been calling them the '11/05's, since that's what's on many
of the extant drawings, manuals, etc - and DEC seems to prefer the '05' in
manual ID's, even when the title references both - e.g.  DEC-11-H05SS-B-D is
the "PDP-11/05-S, PDP-11/10-S system manual", with the /05 mentioned first.

However, for the 11/35 and 11/40, which we seem to normally call the 11/40
(again, following DEC's lead - EK-11040-TM-002 is the "PDP-11/40, -11/35
system manual", with the /40 mentioned first), the /40 is the end user
machine.

With the /05 being the OEM machine, and the /10 end user one, we (and DEC)
seem to have picked the OEM variant in one as the 'canonical' model, and in
the other, the end-user variant.

Maybe this isn't an issue/problem, but I noticed it, and thought I'd see what
(if anything :-) others thought.

       Noel

From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Feb 24 13:20:26 2016
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 11:20:26 -0800
Subject: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTe4Exou4yVTzPA3CztgFJQnVFykxD=40ucvAhFqg3Haw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimk=KiAB1_2e+XK4k=hRvemz=fWAAM2wkuzX5A5z_ygYOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B0649C9B-D8CE-4A95-91D2-EB4B6B21D980@nf6x.net>
 <000101d16dcc$dceb5020$96c1f060$@classiccmp.org>
 <797B1E1D-D9BB-48A6-AA03-58760E096B65@gmail.com> <56CD28EC.70401@jwsss.com>
 <CAFrGgTTe4Exou4yVTzPA3CztgFJQnVFykxD=40ucvAhFqg3Haw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CE027A.2070205@jwsss.com>



On 2/24/2016 10:59 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 8:52 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>> For serial I use a Saleae 8 bit analyzer.
> [...]
>> You do have to use a level shifter with the thing because it is designed for
>> 3.3v logic and needs to be adjusted accordingly.
> The Saleae Logic Pro 16 (and probably the Logic Pro 8, but I haven't
> checked) are designed for an operating input voltage range of +/-10V,
> with an abs max rating of +/-25V. Saleae specifically states that it
> can be directly connected to RS-232.
We had the analyzers out "bleeding edge" and the originals were not 
differential and were not +5 safe.  They tolerated the differential 0-5 
we had at one point in the circuit, and the engineer I worked with said 
"hm, you are lucky" with that hookup.

I was not using the Pro, that is way late in their product line for me.

their newer 4 channel version does seem to also be differential and 
RS232 voltage level compliant.  (FWIW I was on RS485 differential, line 
levels same as RS232, but function not).

Thanks
Jim
> The Logic Pro models are more expensive than the other (amateur?)
> models, but support analog input on all channels. I now use a Logic
> Pro 16 for most of my simple logic analyzer requirements, but still
> use an Agilent 16700 logic analyzer mainframe when I need more than 16
> channels.
>
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 24 13:40:23 2016
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:40:23 -0500
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <B2FFFC31-E1A0-42BD-9CA8-BDC2B67E9A67@comcast.net>


> On Feb 24, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> So, what's the best short name for the pair of machines, the PDP-11/05 and
> PDP-11/10 (which differ only in the nameplate)?
> 
> I have generally been calling them the '11/05's, since that's what's on many
> of the extant drawings, manuals, etc - and DEC seems to prefer the '05' in
> manual ID's, even when the title references both - e.g.  DEC-11-H05SS-B-D is
> the "PDP-11/05-S, PDP-11/10-S system manual", with the /05 mentioned first.
> 
> However, for the 11/35 and 11/40, which we seem to normally call the 11/40
> (again, following DEC's lead - EK-11040-TM-002 is the "PDP-11/40, -11/35
> system manual", with the /40 mentioned first), the /40 is the end user
> machine.
> 
> With the /05 being the OEM machine, and the /10 end user one, we (and DEC)
> seem to have picked the OEM variant in one as the 'canonical' model, and in
> the other, the end-user variant.

Interesting point.  FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40 respectively.

	paul


From north at alum.mit.edu  Wed Feb 24 14:56:59 2016
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 12:56:59 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNTyazK_6B1r1FEjS0s+noo-oZjTdHvCUbRvMSyAaGrwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbNTyazK_6B1r1FEjS0s+noo-oZjTdHvCUbRvMSyAaGrwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CE191B.1050809@alum.mit.edu>

On 2/24/2016 3:43 AM, Mike Ross wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>>>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>>>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>>>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip
>> Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
>> have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
>> switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there.... but this is as far as it gets:
>>
>> MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
>> -r vax73058
>> info: unit 0 r    file 'vax73058'
>> info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
>> info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com>, (C) 1984 Dan
>> Ts'o <Rockefeller University>
>> info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
>> info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
>> info: TU58 emulation start
>> info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit
>> info: emulator started
>>
>> (I ctrl-c the VAX)
>>
>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>> info: <NULL> seen
>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>> info: <NULL> seen
>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>> info: <INIT> seen
>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>> info: <INIT> seen
>> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>>
>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>
>> (I ctrl-c the VAX again)
>>
>> info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
>> info: <NULL> seen
>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>> info: <NULL> seen
>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>> info: <INIT> seen
>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>> info: <INIT> seen
>> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>>
>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>
>> (repeat)
>>
>> Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
>> various options?
>>
>> (I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
>> otherwise it's straight out of the box)
> Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:
>
> http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/
>
> I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
> quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
> and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
> serial console displays:
>
> Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!
>
> And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...
>
> Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
> think the problem is with tu58em...
>
> Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
> configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
> before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
> parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
> avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
> a bad one...
>
> Mike
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely required?



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 14:57:56 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:57:56 -0500
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <B2FFFC31-E1A0-42BD-9CA8-BDC2B67E9A67@comcast.net>
References: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <B2FFFC31-E1A0-42BD-9CA8-BDC2B67E9A67@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudH9x06amji2ddXNhc_VvcwUmAr7+zUGrpS315hZsrH0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 24, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > So, what's the best short name for the pair of machines, the PDP-11/05
> and
> > PDP-11/10 (which differ only in the nameplate)?
> >
> > I have generally been calling them the '11/05's, since that's what's on
> many
> > of the extant drawings, manuals, etc - and DEC seems to prefer the '05'
> in
> > manual ID's, even when the title references both - e.g.
> DEC-11-H05SS-B-D is
> > the "PDP-11/05-S, PDP-11/10-S system manual", with the /05 mentioned
> first.
> >
> > However, for the 11/35 and 11/40, which we seem to normally call the
> 11/40
> > (again, following DEC's lead - EK-11040-TM-002 is the "PDP-11/40, -11/35
> > system manual", with the /40 mentioned first), the /40 is the end user
> > machine.
> >
> > With the /05 being the OEM machine, and the /10 end user one, we (and
> DEC)
> > seem to have picked the OEM variant in one as the 'canonical' model, and
> in
> > the other, the end-user variant.
>
> Interesting point.  FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40 respectively.
>
>         paul
>
>
putting all of that original 11/10 stuff aside :-)

There is a version of the processor handbook with all 4, and there is a
version with just 11/40.  I have never seen a processor handbook for just
the 11/35, 11/05, or 11/10 by itself.
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From andreas.holz at sear-gmbh.de  Wed Feb 24 13:18:54 2016
From: andreas.holz at sear-gmbh.de (Holz, Andreas)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:18:54 +0100
Subject: Offer: HP 1611A logic state analyser with option A80 for 8080
 microprocessors
In-Reply-To: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9EA953B7-FA45-4DE4-B2B0-C77B3F436D0D@sear-gmbh.de>



> Am 24.02.2016 um 10:18 schrieb P Gebhardt <p.gebhardt at ymail.com>:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> I've had this HP logic state analyzer for many years now, but never found actual use for it and thus never used it. So I decided that a new home would be more suitable for it. The analyzer comes with the option to debug and analyze 8080 microporcessors. Probes are provided, but no manual. However, there is a small command overview on the front of the  keyboard. 
> 
> The system completes the selftest and I did let it run for two hours yesterday. No more tests done, but if anybody wants me to do a specific test, then I can do it, provided you explain to me what to do. 
> 
> Pictures are under 
> 
> 
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/hp_1611a/
> 
> Make me an offer via private reply. Pick-up in Bonn (Germany) or international shipping possible. However, keep in mind that the system weights 13kg (29 lbs), so shipping is not going to be cheap.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pierre  
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From andreas.holz at sear-gmbh.de  Wed Feb 24 13:23:40 2016
From: andreas.holz at sear-gmbh.de (Holz, Andreas)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:23:40 +0100
Subject: Offer: HP 1611A logic state analyser with option A80 for 8080
 microprocessors
In-Reply-To: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <501B4B0F-526A-4E65-B59E-8FB7446DE714@sear-gmbh.de>

Peter,

entschuldige bitte die vorherige Leermail.

Ich habe zwar bereits einen solchen, bin jedoch an einem weiteren interessiert. Biete EUR 50,-, den Betrag, den ich f?r meinen Ersten bezahlt hatte. Ich w?rde ihn im April abholen, da ich am 7.4 einen Termin in Bad Neuenahr wahrnehmen werde.

-- Andreas 

> Am 24.02.2016 um 10:18 schrieb P Gebhardt <p.gebhardt at ymail.com>:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> I've had this HP logic state analyzer for many years now, but never found actual use for it and thus never used it. So I decided that a new home would be more suitable for it. The analyzer comes with the option to debug and analyze 8080 microporcessors. Probes are provided, but no manual. However, there is a small command overview on the front of the  keyboard. 
> 
> The system completes the selftest and I did let it run for two hours yesterday. No more tests done, but if anybody wants me to do a specific test, then I can do it, provided you explain to me what to do. 
> 
> Pictures are under 
> 
> 
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/hp_1611a/
> 
> Make me an offer via private reply. Pick-up in Bonn (Germany) or international shipping possible. However, keep in mind that the system weights 13kg (29 lbs), so shipping is not going to be cheap.
> 
> Cheers,
> Pierre  
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 15:11:01 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 10:11:01 +1300
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <56CE191B.1050809@alum.mit.edu>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbNTyazK_6B1r1FEjS0s+noo-oZjTdHvCUbRvMSyAaGrwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CE191B.1050809@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbOH35sp6SXxUBFiJRHcE2Bt1i7cv7wX1kuT-GfRR1FbMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> On 2/24/2016 3:43 AM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 23:09, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Actually I do have a Mac within easy range of the 730. Could you do me
>>>>> a favour and throw a prebuilt OSX binary somewhere I can grab it? I
>>>>> have flaky internet in the workshop and this Mac isn't set up with
>>>>> Xcode or any other dev environment...
>>>>
>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29876211/tu58em.zip
>>>
>>> Thanks Mark... I played with this. I built a 3-wire cable; I'm sure I
>>> have it wired right because traffic happens - and if I disconnect, or
>>> switch Rx/Tx, it just sits there.... but this is as far as it gets:
>>>
>>> MikeUpstairs:~ Imac$ ./tu58 -s 38400 -p /dev/tty.usbserial -d -v -m -x
>>> -r vax73058
>>> info: unit 0 r    file 'vax73058'
>>> info: tu58 tape emulator v1.4j (NF6X fork)
>>> info: (C) 2005-2014 Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com>, (C) 1984 Dan
>>> Ts'o <Rockefeller University>
>>> info: serial port /dev/tty.usbserial at 38400 baud
>>> info: MRSP mode enabled (NOT fully tested - use with caution)
>>> info: TU58 emulation start
>>> info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q
>>> quit
>>> info: emulator started
>>>
>>> (I ctrl-c the VAX)
>>>
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info: <NULL> seen
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info: <NULL> seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>>> info: <INIT> seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>>> info: <INIT> seen
>>> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>>>
>>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>>
>>> (I ctrl-c the VAX again)
>>>
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0xFF
>>> info: <NULL> seen
>>> info: flag=0x00 last=0x00
>>> info: <NULL> seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x00
>>> info: <INIT> seen
>>> info: flag=0x04 last=0x04
>>> info: <INIT> seen
>>> info: <INIT><INIT> seen, sending <CONT>
>>>
>>> (?27 DEVICE ERROR on VAX)
>>>
>>> (repeat)
>>>
>>> Can you spot me being stupid? Does my command line look sane re.
>>> various options?
>>>
>>> (I've trivially renamed the tape image file for faster typing
>>> otherwise it's straight out of the box)
>>
>> Just for giggles I decided to try Bela Torok's Arduino-based emulator:
>>
>> http://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/
>>
>> I whipped that up from bits tonight and got it working surprisingly
>> quickly. But the VAX still doesn't want to play; from the behaviour
>> and messages it's falling over at exactly the same place. The Arduino
>> serial console displays:
>>
>> Continue after 2 INIT flags. online!
>>
>> And VAX shows the now-familiar ?27 DEVICE ERROR...
>>
>> Which looks a HELL of a lot like how tu58em is ending. So I don't
>> think the problem is with tu58em...
>>
>> Is there anything I should be looking at on the VAX end here? Any
>> configuration or cabling details that could be screwing things up
>> before I drag the RS232 analyser out? I've tried changing the 'delay'
>> parameter on the Arduino to various values between 0 and 255 to no
>> avail - and I've tried a couple of different tape images in case I got
>> a bad one...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> http://www.corestore.org
>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>>
>
> Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely
> required?

For VAX-11/730 console yes it is absolutely required as far as I know;
everything I've read about people using emulation there says that it
is.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From mi at fritscholyt.de  Wed Feb 24 15:17:17 2016
From: mi at fritscholyt.de (Michael Fritsch)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:17:17 +0100
Subject: Offer: HP 1611A logic state analyser with option A80 for 8080
 microprocessors
In-Reply-To: <501B4B0F-526A-4E65-B59E-8FB7446DE714@sear-gmbh.de>
References: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <501B4B0F-526A-4E65-B59E-8FB7446DE714@sear-gmbh.de>
Message-ID: <56CE1DDD.6030800@fritscholyt.de>

Hat er au?er dem 8080-Adapter nur die eine 8-Kanal-Probe dabei? Das ist ein bischen wenig.


Holz, Andreas wrote:
> Peter,
>
> entschuldige bitte die vorherige Leermail.
>
> Ich habe zwar bereits einen solchen, bin jedoch an einem weiteren interessiert. Biete EUR 50,-, den Betrag, den ich f?r meinen Ersten bezahlt hatte. Ich w?rde ihn im April abholen, da ich am 7.4 einen Termin in Bad Neuenahr wahrnehmen werde.
>
> -- Andreas
>
>> Am 24.02.2016 um 10:18 schrieb P Gebhardt <p.gebhardt at ymail.com>:
>>
>> Hello list,
>>
>> I've had this HP logic state analyzer for many years now, but never found actual use for it and thus never used it. So I decided that a new home would be more suitable for it. The analyzer comes with the option to debug and analyze 8080 microporcessors. Probes are provided, but no manual. However, there is a small command overview on the front of the  keyboard.
>>
>> The system completes the selftest and I did let it run for two hours yesterday. No more tests done, but if anybody wants me to do a specific test, then I can do it, provided you explain to me what to do.
>>
>> Pictures are under
>>
>>
>> http://www.digitalheritage.de/other/hp_1611a/
>>
>> Make me an offer via private reply. Pick-up in Bonn (Germany) or international shipping possible. However, keep in mind that the system weights 13kg (29 lbs), so shipping is not going to be cheap.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de


From mi at fritscholyt.de  Wed Feb 24 15:38:30 2016
From: mi at fritscholyt.de (Michael Fritsch)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:38:30 +0100
Subject: Offer: HP 1611A logic state analyser with option A80 for 8080
 microprocessors
In-Reply-To: <56CE1DDD.6030800@fritscholyt.de>
References: <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <923675382.14263140.1456305498335.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <501B4B0F-526A-4E65-B59E-8FB7446DE714@sear-gmbh.de>
 <56CE1DDD.6030800@fritscholyt.de>
Message-ID: <56CE22D6.3030104@fritscholyt.de>

Oh sorry, it was not intended that this reply goes to the list.

Micha



Michael Fritsch wrote:
> Hat er au?er dem 8080-Adapter nur die eine 8-Kanal-Probe dabei? Das ist ein bischen wenig.
>
>


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 15:41:01 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:41:01 -0500
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudH9x06amji2ddXNhc_VvcwUmAr7+zUGrpS315hZsrH0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <B2FFFC31-E1A0-42BD-9CA8-BDC2B67E9A67@comcast.net>
 <CABGJBudH9x06amji2ddXNhc_VvcwUmAr7+zUGrpS315hZsrH0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudke7UOPjzWG8O8O78ntuQuWh9wQ8KtKF9PoYabz8MFgg@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>> >
>> > With the /05 being the OEM machine, and the /10 end user one, we (and
>> DEC)
>> > seem to have picked the OEM variant in one as the 'canonical' model,
>> and in
>> > the other, the end-user variant.
>>
>> Interesting point.  FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40
>> respectively.
>>
>>         paul
>>
>>
> putting all of that original 11/10 stuff aside :-)
>
> There is a version of the processor handbook with all 4, and there is a
> version with just 11/40.  I have never seen a processor handbook for just
> the 11/35, 11/05, or 11/10 by itself.
> --
>

I meant to add one more thing.  I always treated the 11/05 and 11/10 as
separate machines, just as much as the 11/05 S and 11/05 NC.  Not sure if
there is an 11/10 model S or NC.

From north at alum.mit.edu  Wed Feb 24 16:11:48 2016
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:11:48 -0800
Subject: VAX 11/730 quickie
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOH35sp6SXxUBFiJRHcE2Bt1i7cv7wX1kuT-GfRR1FbMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbMGH-8VH9t9qwNZ9guoELKw8iVHNtD4nPvLnJibRzMy7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbM5AF8xKsf-pQBbOuKMZv=+5LpYGA10aJp7F1YbW+DQ6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E81D9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbM7C6Sr-U=Cv+DQZtGMRj8jBKxA2tNOpo-Kvqzccpo6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027E823A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAPhLQbN9VqCu=D-nAdWQHGjapfaHQJvfVJkpC4WiQE3eMHoSiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56C90039.4050900@cimmeri.com>
 <CAPhLQbOtto2zB_cbr+EBE2aE3Qb3QDrhxhapztdaaMqQd0Lk5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <967D6FCE-EAE2-40B0-AABC-9E90BAC0531B@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbPtuGp-GDH605F4BomzP=jTRjDTE38=0-de_ytTdfwDeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDFAE2FA-4C67-4FF5-A98B-E11F976F9D18@nf6x.net>
 <CAPhLQbNpMGNXGvdU8D1GJzttntPdUywawUZLiOm5BT1-GLnwBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbNTyazK_6B1r1FEjS0s+noo-oZjTdHvCUbRvMSyAaGrwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CE191B.1050809@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAPhLQbOH35sp6SXxUBFiJRHcE2Bt1i7cv7wX1kuT-GfRR1FbMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CE2AA4.8070401@alum.mit.edu>

On 2/24/2016 1:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>> Why are you using MRSP mode (-m switch)? Do you know that is absolutely
>> required?
> For VAX-11/730 console yes it is absolutely required as far as I know;
> everything I've read about people using emulation there says that it
> is.
>
> Mike

Yes it appears that is correct. Going back to this thread:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?36113-Problems-using-tu58em-with-VAX-11-725-VAX-11-730/page13
there was a whole lot of discussion on bringing up a '730 with TU58EM, and the 
updates to it (to fix some time delays)
to support the TU58 device on the '730 with TU58EM.

I have since updated mainline TU58EM to version 1.4m to add Mark Blair's VAX 730 
timing and background mode changes
(enable via -x and -b switches). Source and cygwin executable here: 
https://github.com/AK6DN/tu58em
Functionally this should be the same as Mark's version 1.4j + his changes.

Don



From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 16:36:49 2016
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:36:49 -0600
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudke7UOPjzWG8O8O78ntuQuWh9wQ8KtKF9PoYabz8MFgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160224190446.EAB8E18C0D7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <B2FFFC31-E1A0-42BD-9CA8-BDC2B67E9A67@comcast.net>
 <CABGJBudH9x06amji2ddXNhc_VvcwUmAr7+zUGrpS315hZsrH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudke7UOPjzWG8O8O78ntuQuWh9wQ8KtKF9PoYabz8MFgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuME8oqaGFb2U3C9ZKTZn9Yo9GwnJYcLFRBG3hg9PfZO4w@mail.gmail.com>

The 11/05 and 11/10, or whatever you want to call them are rather unique. I
believe they are the only cpu in the PDP11 family with the slu built onto
the cpu boards, and have the the same cpu, M7260 and M7261, use about 6
different backplanes, most of then listed in the Unibus Troubleshooting
Guide. A lot of people have gotten into trouble thinking all the backplanes
were the same.

Paul

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 3:41 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >
> >
> >> >
> >> > With the /05 being the OEM machine, and the /10 end user one, we (and
> >> DEC)
> >> > seem to have picked the OEM variant in one as the 'canonical' model,
> >> and in
> >> > the other, the end-user variant.
> >>
> >> Interesting point.  FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40
> >> respectively.
> >>
> >>         paul
> >>
> >>
> > putting all of that original 11/10 stuff aside :-)
> >
> > There is a version of the processor handbook with all 4, and there is a
> > version with just 11/40.  I have never seen a processor handbook for just
> > the 11/35, 11/05, or 11/10 by itself.
> > --
> >
>
> I meant to add one more thing.  I always treated the 11/05 and 11/10 as
> separate machines, just as much as the 11/05 S and 11/05 NC.  Not sure if
> there is an 11/10 model S or NC.
>

From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 24 17:05:05 2016
From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 23:05:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability
References: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

[snippage for brevity, sorry]

Some readers may remember (but most won't) that in 1999, QNX released a freely distributable demo containing their QNX kernel, their Photon MicroGui, an IP stack including Internet connectivity capability, and a graphical web browser which even does JavaScript. So what. Well the so what is that it all fitted on a 1.44MB floppy to run on a PC of that era.

Words and pictures: e.g. http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html
A movie (again from toastytech): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0

Never used it myself, other than the demo, but it always sounded interesting. Maybe like VAXELN, a well kept secret.

have a lot of fun
John Wallace

ps
QNX doesn't have HELP ADVANCED WOMBAT or a newsletter called The Wombat Examiner.

From mazzinia at tin.it  Wed Feb 24 17:43:38 2016
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 00:43:38 +0100
Subject: R: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability
In-Reply-To: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010201d16f5d$301502a0$903f07e0$@tin.it>

I do remember, and I had (still have) that floppy.
I've also tried the full qnx, and it's the best thing I ever tried, likely

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di John Wallace
Inviato: gioved? 25 febbraio 2016 00:05
A: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Oggetto: Re: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability

[snippage for brevity, sorry]

Some readers may remember (but most won't) that in 1999, QNX released a freely distributable demo containing their QNX kernel, their Photon MicroGui, an IP stack including Internet connectivity capability, and a graphical web browser which even does JavaScript. So what. Well the so what is that it all fitted on a 1.44MB floppy to run on a PC of that era.

Words and pictures: e.g. http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html
A movie (again from toastytech): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0

Never used it myself, other than the demo, but it always sounded interesting. Maybe like VAXELN, a well kept secret.

have a lot of fun
John Wallace

ps
QNX doesn't have HELP ADVANCED WOMBAT or a newsletter called The Wombat Examiner.


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 24 18:01:42 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:01:42 -0800
Subject: R: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability
In-Reply-To: <010201d16f5d$301502a0$903f07e0$@tin.it>
References: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <010201d16f5d$301502a0$903f07e0$@tin.it>
Message-ID: <56CE4466.4090005@sydex.com>

On 02/24/2016 03:43 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
> I do remember, and I had (still have) that floppy. I've also tried
> the full qnx, and it's the best thing I ever tried, likely

There were actually a couple of versions of this.  One with NIC support 
and another with modem support.  There was apparently a couple of 
add-ons that were available.

Great fun, those.

--Chuck

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 19:11:56 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:11:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, william degnan wrote:

> Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
> Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
> one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:
>
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
>
> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to
>
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net

Why not?

For ten years I managed a VAX cluster running VMS 5.X and Wollongong 
tcp/ip with PMDF plus a VAXstation 3100 running VMS 5.5 and UCX with 
Hunter Goatley's MX open source freeware MTA.  I sent outbound 
mail to

 	in%"foo at baz.com"

That syntax is required to cope with the VMS mail utility, it is not
an SMTP or Multinet problem.

Incoming mail was addressed the same as for any other tcp/ip host:

 	richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca

Later I ran an Apha VMS workstation with Multinet V4 and the syntax was
the same.

Multinet has an SMTP listener and it expects standard SMTP addresses.
If you cannot deliver such an address locally then you must look at how
you have configured the Multinet email server, if you want to forward
to a decnet only machine or to All-in-One (rather than a VAXmail user)
then you will need to create some rewrite rules but Multinet should
deliver to a local VMS mailbox without clever manipulation.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 19:11:56 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:11:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, william degnan wrote:

> Assuming I want to send an email message to an older VAX server (Process
> Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 ) that requires
> one to format their OUTBOUND emails like this:
>
> To: SMTP%"bill at myemail.net"
>
> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to
>
> system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net

Why not?

For ten years I managed a VAX cluster running VMS 5.X and Wollongong 
tcp/ip with PMDF plus a VAXstation 3100 running VMS 5.5 and UCX with 
Hunter Goatley's MX open source freeware MTA.  I sent outbound 
mail to

 	in%"foo at baz.com"

That syntax is required to cope with the VMS mail utility, it is not
an SMTP or Multinet problem.

Incoming mail was addressed the same as for any other tcp/ip host:

 	richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca

Later I ran an Apha VMS workstation with Multinet V4 and the syntax was
the same.

Multinet has an SMTP listener and it expects standard SMTP addresses.
If you cannot deliver such an address locally then you must look at how
you have configured the Multinet email server, if you want to forward
to a decnet only machine or to All-in-One (rather than a VAXmail user)
then you will need to create some rewrite rules but Multinet should
deliver to a local VMS mailbox without clever manipulation.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Wed Feb 24 20:59:57 2016
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 02:59:57 +0000
Subject: AIX Dev CD
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE99381@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

By any strange chance, does anyone have a really old 2-CD set called "Software Development Solutions for AIX Version 4", Fifth Edition?  I guess they were fairly common at one point.  If anyone has one they can spare, I'll pay...

Thanks!

-Ben

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Feb 24 22:06:50 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:06:50 -0800
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 24, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> 
> Multinet has an SMTP listener and it expects standard SMTP addresses.
> If you cannot deliver such an address locally then you must look at how
> you have configured the Multinet email server, if you want to forward
> to a decnet only machine or to All-in-One (rather than a VAXmail user)
> then you will need to create some rewrite rules but Multinet should
> deliver to a local VMS mailbox without clever manipulation.

Good grief, Charlie Brown!  AllIn1 had it's own Bitnet-style routing syntax on VMS?  I am so glad I never knew that.

Did PMDF run until the end of VMS at AU?  I don't recall you ever mentioning the UCX stuff.  Of course you know I stayed as far away from VMS as was humanly possible :-)  (And just when did the 8650 get retired?  Did it spend any time keeping auvax company behind the woodshed?)

--lyndon


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Feb 24 22:06:50 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:06:50 -0800
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 24, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> 
> Multinet has an SMTP listener and it expects standard SMTP addresses.
> If you cannot deliver such an address locally then you must look at how
> you have configured the Multinet email server, if you want to forward
> to a decnet only machine or to All-in-One (rather than a VAXmail user)
> then you will need to create some rewrite rules but Multinet should
> deliver to a local VMS mailbox without clever manipulation.

Good grief, Charlie Brown!  AllIn1 had it's own Bitnet-style routing syntax on VMS?  I am so glad I never knew that.

Did PMDF run until the end of VMS at AU?  I don't recall you ever mentioning the UCX stuff.  Of course you know I stayed as far away from VMS as was humanly possible :-)  (And just when did the 8650 get retired?  Did it spend any time keeping auvax company behind the woodshed?)

--lyndon


From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 22:48:40 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:48:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> Good grief, Charlie Brown!  AllIn1 had it's own Bitnet-style routing 
> syntax on VMS?  I am so glad I never knew that.

I don't remember the details of all-in-one at all.  It is possible that
all-in-one just used the standard VMS mailbox but I do not remember.
All-in-One was retired long before VMS was retired.

> Did PMDF run until the end of VMS at AU?  I don't recall you ever 
> mentioning the UCX stuff.  Of course you know I stayed as far away from 
> VMS as was humanly possible :-)  (And just when did the 8650 get 
> retired?  Did it spend any time keeping auvax company behind the 
> woodshed?)

First, we are still running PMDF and we are still running it on our brace
of DS20E Tru64 boxes, the gods have decreed that we will be on Office365
by the end of March but the removal of PMDF will be a separate project
which will be put in motion some time this year.  It is possible that
we will just move it over to a Linux box along with the mailman server
but I would rather retire both PMDF and mailman.

As for the 8650...  Lessee...

     AU purchased an 8600 some time around 1985?
     The 8600 was upgraded in place to an 8650
     The 8650 was traded in on an 8820 for $1.2 million
     Some time in the very late 80s a VAX 4000-300 was purchased
     Circa 1990 the 8820 and the 4000 were traded in for two VAX 4000-500s
     The VAX 4000-500 were upgrade twice in place finally to a 505A
     The VAX 4000 was finally shut off around 2010

So, no, only the 785 suffered the indignity of a slow death in the rain.

PMDF was left running on the VAX 4000 until the end but even I was not
logging into it any more.

I was running a DECstation 3000 Model 400 which was purchsed around 1990
on my desktop until about 2005 when the memory went South, I was looking
into replacing it with yet another Linux box when my boss (Greg) suggested
I go into the machine room and dig the Alphaserver 4100 (retired Unix
Oracle server) out from under the debree and use that so I did.

The 4100 is now running VMS 8.3, Multinet, and PMDF and it was my only 
desktop workstation until 2010 when it lost a power supply so I built a 
linux box while waiting for HP to provide a power supply (lax management 
had left the 4100 on a service contract so I ordered a power supply first 
and told the boss to cancel the service contract second).  The 4100 is
still pouring out noise and heat beside my desk but the linux box has
become my main computer.

I will probably take the 4100 home when I retire on December 31 so it
can warm up my basement.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 22:48:40 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:48:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> Good grief, Charlie Brown!  AllIn1 had it's own Bitnet-style routing 
> syntax on VMS?  I am so glad I never knew that.

I don't remember the details of all-in-one at all.  It is possible that
all-in-one just used the standard VMS mailbox but I do not remember.
All-in-One was retired long before VMS was retired.

> Did PMDF run until the end of VMS at AU?  I don't recall you ever 
> mentioning the UCX stuff.  Of course you know I stayed as far away from 
> VMS as was humanly possible :-)  (And just when did the 8650 get 
> retired?  Did it spend any time keeping auvax company behind the 
> woodshed?)

First, we are still running PMDF and we are still running it on our brace
of DS20E Tru64 boxes, the gods have decreed that we will be on Office365
by the end of March but the removal of PMDF will be a separate project
which will be put in motion some time this year.  It is possible that
we will just move it over to a Linux box along with the mailman server
but I would rather retire both PMDF and mailman.

As for the 8650...  Lessee...

     AU purchased an 8600 some time around 1985?
     The 8600 was upgraded in place to an 8650
     The 8650 was traded in on an 8820 for $1.2 million
     Some time in the very late 80s a VAX 4000-300 was purchased
     Circa 1990 the 8820 and the 4000 were traded in for two VAX 4000-500s
     The VAX 4000-500 were upgrade twice in place finally to a 505A
     The VAX 4000 was finally shut off around 2010

So, no, only the 785 suffered the indignity of a slow death in the rain.

PMDF was left running on the VAX 4000 until the end but even I was not
logging into it any more.

I was running a DECstation 3000 Model 400 which was purchsed around 1990
on my desktop until about 2005 when the memory went South, I was looking
into replacing it with yet another Linux box when my boss (Greg) suggested
I go into the machine room and dig the Alphaserver 4100 (retired Unix
Oracle server) out from under the debree and use that so I did.

The 4100 is now running VMS 8.3, Multinet, and PMDF and it was my only 
desktop workstation until 2010 when it lost a power supply so I built a 
linux box while waiting for HP to provide a power supply (lax management 
had left the 4100 on a service contract so I ordered a power supply first 
and told the boss to cancel the service contract second).  The 4100 is
still pouring out noise and heat beside my desk but the linux box has
become my main computer.

I will probably take the 4100 home when I retire on December 31 so it
can warm up my basement.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From isking at uw.edu  Wed Feb 24 23:02:20 2016
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:02:20 -0800
Subject: R: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability
In-Reply-To: <56CE4466.4090005@sydex.com>
References: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <010201d16f5d$301502a0$903f07e0$@tin.it>
 <56CE4466.4090005@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03WuNd-OFvn5iySofpEU5Z+DOyq-+LkdC0jEdTnc3T+tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 02/24/2016 03:43 PM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote:
>
>> I do remember, and I had (still have) that floppy. I've also tried
>> the full qnx, and it's the best thing I ever tried, likely
>>
>
> There were actually a couple of versions of this.  One with NIC support
> and another with modem support.  There was apparently a couple of add-ons
> that were available.
>
> Great fun, those.
>
> --Chuck
>

I remember talking with some of the QNX folks at RTECC (Real Time and
Embedded Computer Conferences) a number of years ago, back when I was Test
Manager for the Windows CE kernel (which at the time was a soft RT OS).  I
was always intrigued with and impressed by their product - some very good
thinking went into that, IMHO.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 23:14:00 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:14:00 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242149200.576@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, william degnan wrote:

> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to

Perhaps VMS cannot reach your mailbox?

In another message you mentioned a complain from your mail server 
involving a ':'.  A colon is very important to VMS for things like
terminating a logical name, separating the device name from the directory,
the node name from the device name, modifying the way that a symbol is
defined, and probably others.  So a full file specification migh look
like this

 	oldvax::sys$sysdevice:[temp.george]george_and_alice.jpg

This leads to the following required syntax for a Multinet scp command:

     richardlo $ scp brian_trains.txt klystron.cs:trains.txt
     SCP2: FATAL: klystron.cs is not a valid logical name, use :: for a
     remote host
     richardlo $ scp brian_trains.txt klystron.cs::trains.txt
     brian_trains.txt           | 4.3kB | 4.3kB/s | TOC: 00:00:01 | 100%

Go read you multinet configuration and you system startup files very
carefully with a mind for typographical errors surrounding colons,
logical names, symbols, and so forth.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 23:14:00 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:14:00 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242149200.576@discord.bogons>

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016, william degnan wrote:

> How does one send mail INBOUND to this kind of VAX mail from a modern email
> like gmail?  Is it possible to format the header somehow to get the message
> through?  You can't simply send a message to

Perhaps VMS cannot reach your mailbox?

In another message you mentioned a complain from your mail server 
involving a ':'.  A colon is very important to VMS for things like
terminating a logical name, separating the device name from the directory,
the node name from the device name, modifying the way that a symbol is
defined, and probably others.  So a full file specification migh look
like this

 	oldvax::sys$sysdevice:[temp.george]george_and_alice.jpg

This leads to the following required syntax for a Multinet scp command:

     richardlo $ scp brian_trains.txt klystron.cs:trains.txt
     SCP2: FATAL: klystron.cs is not a valid logical name, use :: for a
     remote host
     richardlo $ scp brian_trains.txt klystron.cs::trains.txt
     brian_trains.txt           | 4.3kB | 4.3kB/s | TOC: 00:00:01 | 100%

Go read you multinet configuration and you system startup files very
carefully with a mind for typographical errors surrounding colons,
logical names, symbols, and so forth.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Feb 24 23:13:58 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:13:58 -0800
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 24, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> 
>    AU purchased an 8600 some time around 1985?
>    The 8600 was upgraded in place to an 8650
>    The 8650 was traded in on an 8820 for $1.2 million
>    Some time in the very late 80s a VAX 4000-300 was purchased
>    Circa 1990 the 8820 and the 4000 were traded in for two VAX 4000-500s
>    The VAX 4000-500 were upgrade twice in place finally to a 505A
>    The VAX 4000 was finally shut off around 2010
> 
> So, no, only the 785 suffered the indignity of a slow death in the rain.

My brain is cooked.  I left AU in the fall of 1991, no?  At that time I was pretty sure the 8650 was still in play.  I'm sure I would have remembered the Digital Road Crew showing up with a semi-trailer full of new hardware.

What I can't recall is whether we had ditched auvax by the time I left.  I remember the 3B4000 abomination occupying the same floor space the 785 hung out in.  The same neighbourhood, at least.

The train of 3B2's that replaced the 3B4000 abomination took up space closer to and parallel to the PACX.  Closer to the tape vault.

In hindsight, the 3B4000 could not have replaced auvax.  My job was to move all the app's across, so both would have had to be running concurrently for most of the time I was there.

Are there any pictures remaining of us (me, Ross, Ronnie) nuking the 3B4K that night?  Campbell might be in there, too.  I lost my (re-)collection ages ago :-(

--lyndon


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Feb 24 23:13:58 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:13:58 -0800
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 24, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:
> 
>    AU purchased an 8600 some time around 1985?
>    The 8600 was upgraded in place to an 8650
>    The 8650 was traded in on an 8820 for $1.2 million
>    Some time in the very late 80s a VAX 4000-300 was purchased
>    Circa 1990 the 8820 and the 4000 were traded in for two VAX 4000-500s
>    The VAX 4000-500 were upgrade twice in place finally to a 505A
>    The VAX 4000 was finally shut off around 2010
> 
> So, no, only the 785 suffered the indignity of a slow death in the rain.

My brain is cooked.  I left AU in the fall of 1991, no?  At that time I was pretty sure the 8650 was still in play.  I'm sure I would have remembered the Digital Road Crew showing up with a semi-trailer full of new hardware.

What I can't recall is whether we had ditched auvax by the time I left.  I remember the 3B4000 abomination occupying the same floor space the 785 hung out in.  The same neighbourhood, at least.

The train of 3B2's that replaced the 3B4000 abomination took up space closer to and parallel to the PACX.  Closer to the tape vault.

In hindsight, the 3B4000 could not have replaced auvax.  My job was to move all the app's across, so both would have had to be running concurrently for most of the time I was there.

Are there any pictures remaining of us (me, Ross, Ronnie) nuking the 3B4K that night?  Campbell might be in there, too.  I lost my (re-)collection ages ago :-(

--lyndon


From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 23:26:28 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:26:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
 <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242218270.576@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> My brain is cooked.  I left AU in the fall of 1991, no?  At that time I 
> was pretty sure the 8650 was still in play.  I'm sure I would have 
> remembered the Digital Road Crew showing up with a semi-trailer full of 
> new hardware.

You have forgotten at least two deliveries of Digital hardware.  The 8820
was BIG! and it sat to the right of the 785.  The 8820 came with an HSC50
and a big pile of RA81s.  That is as far as my memory can go.

When and why was the 780 retired? I cannot remember at all.

> Are there any pictures remaining of us (me, Ross, Ronnie) nuking the 
> 3B4K that night?  Campbell might be in there, too.  I lost my 
> (re-)collection ages ago :-(

I remember those pictures but they seem to be lost (maybe AT&T had them
seized and burned).  I have never seen a machine more gleefully 
dismembered then the 3B4000.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From rlloken at telus.net  Wed Feb 24 23:26:28 2016
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:26:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
 <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242218270.576@discord.bogons>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> My brain is cooked.  I left AU in the fall of 1991, no?  At that time I 
> was pretty sure the 8650 was still in play.  I'm sure I would have 
> remembered the Digital Road Crew showing up with a semi-trailer full of 
> new hardware.

You have forgotten at least two deliveries of Digital hardware.  The 8820
was BIG! and it sat to the right of the 785.  The 8820 came with an HSC50
and a big pile of RA81s.  That is as far as my memory can go.

When and why was the 780 retired? I cannot remember at all.

> Are there any pictures remaining of us (me, Ross, Ronnie) nuking the 
> 3B4K that night?  Campbell might be in there, too.  I lost my 
> (re-)collection ages ago :-(

I remember those pictures but they seem to be lost (maybe AT&T had them
seized and burned).  I have never seen a machine more gleefully 
dismembered then the 3B4000.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS   : "...underneath those
   Athabasca University				   : tuques we wear, our
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada			   : heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **                         :    - Arthur Black

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Feb 24 23:27:32 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 21:27:32 -0800
Subject: AIX Dev CD
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE99381@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE99381@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK_Zx+moQTRr5n_D7nE8LhhCwBShjpMcs7-1GQEuJpr7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Benjamin Huntsman
<BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:
> By any strange chance, does anyone have a really old 2-CD set called "Software Development Solutions for AIX Version 4", Fifth Edition?  I guess they were fairly common at one point.  If anyone has one they can spare, I'll pay...
>

I have a 2-CD set called "Software Development Solutions for AIX
Version 4.1", Fourth Edition. Is that close enough?

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 01:39:26 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 08:39:26 +0100
Subject: QNX - was Re: Minix 3 vs portability
In-Reply-To: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1946310835.15085255.1456355105547.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJqRPN-UXmHJJUs7Xz5u2yOmVanSyUKyLZki8JbfgUUgA@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-25 0:05 GMT+01:00 John Wallace <johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk>:

> [snippage for brevity, sorry]
>
> Some readers may remember (but most won't) that in 1999, QNX released a
> freely distributable demo containing their QNX kernel, their Photon
> MicroGui, an IP stack including Internet connectivity capability, and a
> graphical web browser which even does JavaScript. So what. Well the so what
> is that it all fitted on a 1.44MB floppy to run on a PC of that era.
>
> Words and pictures: e.g. http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html
> A movie (again from toastytech):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0


I certainly remember QNX!
I worked on a project back in 1997-1999, the Inform at fone. A public payphone
with internet capabilities. It used QNX and photon. Someone at QNX
apparently wrote an article about it:

http://smallformfactors.mil-embedded.com/pdfs/QNX.Sum99.pdf

It actually worked quite well on a 66 MHz 486 CPU with quite small flash
memory.

/Mattis


>
>
> Never used it myself, other than the demo, but it always sounded
> interesting. Maybe like VAXELN, a well kept secret.
>
> have a lot of fun
> John Wallace
>
> ps
> QNX doesn't have HELP ADVANCED WOMBAT or a newsletter called The Wombat
> Examiner.
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 06:31:33 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 07:31:33 -0500
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242218270.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
 <89B11870-32F0-4196-9D79-20A2A3363F9F@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242218270.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucYrad5XPqbFgz19q-79TEB9oGk-GeF1tOQxNEw7th4wQ@mail.gmail.com>

P. Coghlan logged into my server and found the problem was due to a logical
assigned to SYSTEM.  If I had created a new user, inbound mail to the other
user would have worked fine, the issue was with sending mail to the SYSTEM
user specifically.  That's why nothing wrong was found with multinet mail
settings, and why I was confused.  P Coghlan writes:

"..To temporarily get rid of the logical name I did:

$ DEASSIGN /SYSTEM /EXEC SYSTEM ..."

He also commented out the line in ..startup_v5.com to prevent reloading of
the logical on boot.  I need to go through startup more closely to see what
else is happening there.

This was a good learning experience for me.

Now, emails to system at microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net are delivered.
Friends from vcfed.org sent test messages all evening, works great.

Thanks everyone.

P.S. The server is not powered on at the moment so if you were to attempt a
message it'd have issues.  Contact me privately if you want to access the
server.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb 25 07:55:11 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 08:55:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
Message-ID: <20160225135511.8A08518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Paul Koning

    > FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40 respectively.

Good to know that others have the same vibe that I do.


    > From: Bill Degnan

    > putting all of that original 11/10 stuff aside :-)

:-)

    > There is a version of the processor handbook with all 4, and there is a
    > version with just 11/40. I have never seen a processor handbook for
    > just the 11/35, 11/05, or 11/10 by itself.

Good point.

BTW, there's often some confusion; some people think the 11/05-10 was the
second PDP-11. It wasn't, it's the fourth, and those processor handbooks
confirm that. The first 11/45 one is dated 1971, the 11/40 one is 1972,
and the one with the four is 1973.

    > I always treated the 11/05 and 11/10 as separate machines, just as much
    > as the 11/05 S and 11/05 NC.

Can you please remind me again what the differences with the 11/05NC are? I
remembered we discussed it, but I'm too lazy to dig through the list archives
for it.

As far as I know, the original 11/05 and original 11/10 differ only in i)
the number on the front, and ii) what options were standard/offered in each;
the hardware is entirely identical.

    > Not sure if there is an 11/10 model S or NC.

There is definitely an 11/10S (again, identical internally, AFAIK, to
the 05S - the DEC manual for the 05S-10S says exactly that).


    > From: Paul Anderson

    > The 11/05 and 11/10 .. use about 6 different backplanes, most of then
    > listed in the Unibus Troubleshooting Guide.

I know of 3, will have to look there to see what else it says.

    > A lot of people have gotten into trouble thinking all the backplanes
    > were the same.

Yes! I know of two for the 11/05-10: one holds one MM11-L, with four SPC
slots; one holds two MM11-L's, with only a single SPC slot. The 11/05S-10S
have a different backplane which holds a single MM11-U, and has 3 SPC slots.

Needless to say, trying to plug an SPC board into a memory slot, etc will
lead to tears (and probably smoke, too... :-)

	Noel

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 08:23:59 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:23:59 +0100
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <20160225135511.8A08518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160225135511.8A08518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJxQmtZZO8CT2jm3=kBrEmYfwgZhkf1ai+BtqZr4iRvOg@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-25 14:55 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

>     > From: Paul Koning
>
>     > FWIW, I have always heard 11/05 and 11/40 respectively.
>
> Good to know that others have the same vibe that I do.
>
>
>     > From: Bill Degnan
>
>     > putting all of that original 11/10 stuff aside :-)
>
> :-)
>
>     > There is a version of the processor handbook with all 4, and there
> is a
>     > version with just 11/40. I have never seen a processor handbook for
>     > just the 11/35, 11/05, or 11/10 by itself.
>
> Good point.
>
> BTW, there's often some confusion; some people think the 11/05-10 was the
> second PDP-11. It wasn't, it's the fourth, and those processor handbooks
> confirm that. The first 11/45 one is dated 1971, the 11/40 one is 1972,
> and the one with the four is 1973.
>
>     > I always treated the 11/05 and 11/10 as separate machines, just as
> much
>     > as the 11/05 S and 11/05 NC.
>
> Can you please remind me again what the differences with the 11/05NC are? I
> remembered we discussed it, but I'm too lazy to dig through the list
> archives
> for it.
>

The NC is in the BA11-D 10 1/2 inch box.  It uses the H750 PSU.


>
> As far as I know, the original 11/05 and original 11/10 differ only in i)
> the number on the front, and ii) what options were standard/offered in
> each;
> the hardware is entirely identical.
>
>     > Not sure if there is an 11/10 model S or NC.
>
> There is definitely an 11/10S (again, identical internally, AFAIK, to
> the 05S - the DEC manual for the 05S-10S says exactly that).
>
>
>     > From: Paul Anderson
>
>     > The 11/05 and 11/10 .. use about 6 different backplanes, most of then
>     > listed in the Unibus Troubleshooting Guide.
>
> I know of 3, will have to look there to see what else it says.
>
>     > A lot of people have gotten into trouble thinking all the backplanes
>     > were the same.
>
> Yes! I know of two for the 11/05-10: one holds one MM11-L, with four SPC
> slots; one holds two MM11-L's, with only a single SPC slot. The 11/05S-10S
> have a different backplane which holds a single MM11-U, and has 3 SPC
> slots.
>

NC can have two MM11-L. No SPC slots.

I have three machines with three different backplanes. One 11/05-NC, one
11/10 in 5.25 inch box and one 11/05-S in BA11-K.


>
> Needless to say, trying to plug an SPC board into a memory slot, etc will
> lead to tears (and probably smoke, too... :-)
>
>         Noel
>

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Feb 25 09:06:45 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 10:06:45 -0500
Subject: Helpful Features in a Debugger
In-Reply-To: <20160222142255.GA7961@Update.UU.SE>
References: <56CB1678.80803@compsys.to> <20160222142255.GA7961@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <56CF1885.8040502@compsys.to>

 >On Monday, February 22nd, 2016 at 15:22:55 +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

>>On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 09:08:56AM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  
>
>>A number of other ideas are as follows:
>>
>>(a)  During a multi-step sequence, stop the sequence when the
>>     stack has more then a specified number of words of increase
>>     or decrease - each specified separately
>>(b)  Set the address range within which the stack must remain
>>      or a multi-step sequence is stopped which is similar to (a),
>>      but expressed differently
>>(c)  Set the address range within which the program counter
>>      must remain or a multi-step sequence s stopped
>>
>I can see how all of these can be usefull. Perhaps a possibility of 
>stopping after a given number of jumps?
>
I was thinking of that as well.  The question is if conditional branch 
instructions
should also be included as opposed to an actual jump.  With regard to 
conditional
branches, the choice could be to stop only if the branch is taken.

Note that calling and returning from a subroutine, while not explicitly
handled, is managed by controlling the number of words added to
or removed from the stack.

>>Also possible to be checked are specified values that registers
>>have, or don't have, which stop a multi-step sequence.  Checks
>>on memory locations can also be included.
>>
>Watching memory locations for changes or agains boolean expressions is 
>very useful.
>
Agreed.  In the past, most of my debugging tends to center on the
newest code which has been added in order to determine if the
newest code is correct or not.  In most cases, the normal method
is to step through one instruction at a time and to then determine
if the assumptions made were correct and if the expected result
occurs.  For these situations, single stepping is the only method
that seems to be well suited and with a step count of one, no
other conditions are required to stop.

However, when there is a undetermined bug, just finding what and
where the problem is occurring usually takes 90% of the effort.
Under this type of situation, additional stopping conditions should
be helpful.

>>And a record of which instructions were executed by saving
>>the program counter addresses in a circular buffer allows the
>>user to check for unexpected execution of certain parts of
>>the code.
>>
>A collegue used a similar tool that recorded _everything_ that happened 
>in a CPU under testing. So he could step back and forth in program time 
>and inspect registers and memory. Very useful and very expensive 
>apparently.
>
The major difficulty is that far too much useless information is
gathered in such an approach since it is almost impossible to
know in advance what is really necessary.  Then, writing the
code for that sort of approach is also extremely difficult.  So
while saving only the program counter addresses is rarely
sufficient, at least it will usually help to locate where the problem
occurred.

>>All suggestions and comments are much appreciated!!!!!!!!!
>>
>I allways use "run to" which is just a temporary breakpoint. Useful and 
>probably easy to implement.
>
That can probably be done quite easily.  I will need to check.

One of the difficulties I am having with the actual implementation
is that almost all of the code and data is in multiple PAR1 areas
of memory since I am using the Mapped RT-11 Monitor, RT11XM.
Thus far, there are 4 * 8192 Byte PAR1 windows of memory, each
of which communicates only via a very limited number of words in
Low Memory.  The use of PAR1 addresses is standard in RT-11
within a device driver, so that part of the solution is good.  In fact,,
one of the most important challenges during the enhancement was to
reduce the number of words in Low Memory as much as possible.
However, as a consequence, the data which is required to determine
what needs to be done while the code is executing in one of the
PAR1 windows is often in a different PAR1.  Unfortunately, the
required communication always seems to need a few extra words
in the first PAR1 and at this point the first PAR1 is totally full -
which makes communication rather difficult.  Thus far, a solution
has eventually been found.

Jerome Fine

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 09:48:08 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 10:48:08 -0500
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJxQmtZZO8CT2jm3=kBrEmYfwgZhkf1ai+BtqZr4iRvOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160225135511.8A08518C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SJxQmtZZO8CT2jm3=kBrEmYfwgZhkf1ai+BtqZr4iRvOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf9zQrcckDW6ZBRyqMwA4jD-F5=A3TNgn-NgXRP6dchqw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> >
> >     > I always treated the 11/05 and 11/10 as separate machines, just as
> > much
> >     > as the 11/05 S and 11/05 NC.
> >
> > Can you please remind me again what the differences with the 11/05NC
> are? I
> > remembered we discussed it, but I'm too lazy to dig through the list
> > archives
> > for it.
> >
>
> The NC is in the BA11-D 10 1/2 inch box.  It uses the H750 PSU.
>
>
>
Here is a set of photos from my NC (forgive any errors in my descriptions)
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249

Here is a set of photos from my S model
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=622

I did not know originally that there were differences NC vs. S, until I
learned otherwise.  I had a bunch of boxes of NC and S parts, and it took
me a while to sort them all out into two separate and correctly-configured
machines.  So again I was learning as I went and some of the descriptions I
used to describe things in the posts above are sometimes sloppy.  Fun
project, learned a lot.

The more useful box is the S model because the more standard enclosure can
be used for testing other UNIBUS cards more easily or than parity RAM.

The thin 11/05 chassis I only worked on for a weekend.  MARCH (now
VCFed.org) had a pair and I went through them to set up for a demo.  No
longer in my hands.  I think these were used for small mini stuff and to
control larger minis.

Bill

Bill

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Feb 25 10:21:42 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:21:42 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56CF2A16.2030701@compsys.to>

 >Ethan Dicks wrote:

>I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
>terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
>classics are:
>
>Adventure
>Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
>Scott Adams Adventures
>Wumpus
>Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
>Empire
>Star Trek
>rogue/hack
>Larn/Ularn
>
>But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly
>"retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a
>C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via
>Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11
>box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear -
>it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an
>IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on
>site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may
>drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).
>
>I have the Commodore end pretty well covered.  I'm looking for
>suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100)
>terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on
>Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.  So in general, anything that uses curses
>or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty.
>
The only game I ever played consistently was the RT-11 SST (Super Start 
Trek)
version of Star Trek which is still available at:

http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/games/

Jerome Fine

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Thu Feb 25 10:35:39 2016
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:35:39 -0500
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
Message-ID: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>

A friend asked me if I had heard of a company called Xenosoft.... Now 
why does that sound familiar, in regards to this bunch here?

Her daughter was contacted by a headhunter about a clerk position in New 
Haven CT....

-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
            Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 25 11:12:22 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 09:12:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
> A friend asked me if I had heard of a company called Xenosoft.... Now why 
> does that sound familiar, in regards to this bunch here?
> Her daughter was contacted by a headhunter about a clerk position in New 
> Haven CT....

A lot of people have infringed upon my trademark.

People tend to name companies without even checking domain names nor 
trademark registration!
Then they try to "work around".  25 years ago, after I politely contacted 
one infringer, he changed to "Xeno's Software Gameworks".
In those days, prior to major web existence, "Comdex List Of Exhibitors"
was a pretty authoritative demonstration of prior use.

For about 15 years, I've been dealing with "Xenosoft Technology", which is 
an employment agency out of Texas and India.  When they couldn't get 
"xenosoft.com", they registered "xenosoft.us", and "xtglobal.com", but 
often "accidentally" slip up and give out "xenosoft.com" as their address, 
such as at tradeshows. raj at xenosoft.com, padeep at xenosoft.com, 
milu at xenosoft.com, etc.
95% of the enormous volume of spam that I receive is for them. For years, 
I assumed honest stupid mistake and I forwarded misaddressed mail to them, 
and notified senders (mostly "current hotlist of candidates"), until 
those headhunters started adding ME to their mailing lists, and it became 
clear that xenosoft.us was still giving out wrong address, and not making 
a good faith effort to get it right.  Kinda a very mild DDOS attack.
(don't like somebody?  put their address on mailing lists, that sell to 
other mailing lists, . . . )
I started to learn .procmailrc, . . .


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb 25 11:43:03 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:43:03 -0600
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <56CF3D27.9050701@pico-systems.com>

On 02/24/2016 10:48 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
>  the gods have decreed that we will be on Office365
> by the end of March
They moved us to this at work last year, it is so awful I 
can't believe it!
The web portal takes minutes to bring up a page, and the 
interface is so ghastly, I could not learn how to use it.

I use the IMAP interface to it, and store everything that it 
lets me locally with Thunderbird, but it is STILL really 
slow and unreliable.  First thing every day, I open 
Thunderbird, and it takes about 5 MINUTES to download the 5 
or so messages that I have. Sending a single mail message 
never takes less than 30 seconds, and often stalls for 
minutes.  It IS working better than right after the 
changeover, but I can't believe most users aren't up to the 
torches and pitchforks stage.  Thank GOD I don't have to 
deal with this abomination from home.

Jon

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Thu Feb 25 12:04:34 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 10:04:34 -0800
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <000801d16ff6$fc9b5010$f5d1f030$@net>

> A lot of people have infringed upon my trademark.
> 

Speaking of Xenosoft (the real one) the website states: 

"Unfortunately, due to some major projects, we are temporarily suspending
retail sales. Please be patient if we are slower than usual in response to
inquiries during these projects. We expect to resume retail sales soon." 

Is that just to torment people into thinking the products will eventually be
made available again when they will not be? Just asking...


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 12:09:10 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 13:09:10 -0500
Subject: OK, one more question about sending email TO an old VAX
In-Reply-To: <56CF3D27.9050701@pico-systems.com>
References: <CABGJBuf7DOa2NSB2K_ekhLMZ82yX6FmtRPZk=K1jpTcsgaTBLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602241756380.576@discord.bogons>
 <9909F68F-A58F-4560-9210-914F15661B8C@orthanc.ca>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602242125380.576@discord.bogons>
 <56CF3D27.9050701@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueu4ffQKjDBXE7hPxDe8vRfYjT8n2yt8niG8A0nUsx-1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 02/24/2016 10:48 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
>
>>  the gods have decreed that we will be on Office365
>> by the end of March
>>
> They moved us to this at work last year, it is so awful I can't believe it!
> The web portal takes minutes to bring up a page, and the interface is so
> ghastly, I could not learn how to use it.
>
> I use the IMAP interface to it, and store everything that it lets me
> locally with Thunderbird, but it is STILL really slow and unreliable.
> First thing every day, I open Thunderbird, and it takes about 5 MINUTES to
> download the 5 or so messages that I have. Sending a single mail message
> never takes less than 30 seconds, and often stalls for minutes.  It IS
> working better than right after the changeover, but I can't believe most
> users aren't up to the torches and pitchforks stage.  Thank GOD I don't
> have to deal with this abomination from home.
>
> Jon
>

OT:

Having done an Office 365 implementation, there must be something wrong.
It should never take that long to synch your emails each day.  that's the
whole point of it.  May be a DNS issue.  I would only even make this guess
having gone through the DNS and install parts for a customer of mine about
four months ago.  If it's not DNS, then they have a setting to send
everything every time which is wrong.  It should only need to synch up
changes.

Maybe they have security reasons to synch everything but that seems dumb

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Thu Feb 25 12:47:18 2016
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 13:47:18 -0500
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56CF4C36.6000300@sbcglobal.net>

On 2/25/2016 12:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
>> A friend asked me if I had heard of a company called Xenosoft.... Now
>> why does that sound familiar, in regards to this bunch here?
>> Her daughter was contacted by a headhunter about a clerk position in
>> New Haven CT....
>
> A lot of people have infringed upon my trademark.
>
> People tend to name companies without even checking domain names nor
> trademark registration!
> Then they try to "work around".  25 years ago, after I politely
> contacted one infringer, he changed to "Xeno's Software Gameworks".
> In those days, prior to major web existence, "Comdex List Of Exhibitors"
> was a pretty authoritative demonstration of prior use.
>
> For about 15 years, I've been dealing with "Xenosoft Technology", which
> is an employment agency out of Texas and India.  When they couldn't get
> "xenosoft.com", they registered "xenosoft.us", and "xtglobal.com", but
> often "accidentally" slip up and give out "xenosoft.com" as their
> address, such as at tradeshows. raj at xenosoft.com, padeep at xenosoft.com,
> milu at xenosoft.com, etc.
> 95% of the enormous volume of spam that I receive is for them. For
> years, I assumed honest stupid mistake and I forwarded misaddressed mail
> to them, and notified senders (mostly "current hotlist of candidates"),
> until those headhunters started adding ME to their mailing lists, and it
> became clear that xenosoft.us was still giving out wrong address, and
> not making a good faith effort to get it right.  Kinda a very mild DDOS
> attack.
> (don't like somebody?  put their address on mailing lists, that sell to
> other mailing lists, . . . )
> I started to learn .procmailrc, . . .
>
>

	Ok, thanks... That rings bells now...


-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From marco at familie-rauhut.eu  Thu Feb 25 13:07:19 2016
From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:07:19 +0100
Subject: Searching a sparepart 82c42pc
Message-ID: <56CF50E7.1040403@familie-rauhut.eu>

Hello list

I am trying to restore an Wandel and Golterman Spectrum Analyzer.
In the Analyzer is a 486DX2 Computer. This Computer did not save some 
bios settings.
So i think that the CMOS ram has a failure.
Did some one have a 82c42pc  in dil40 package as spare part?

If yes, please contact me off list.

Marco

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 25 14:28:32 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 14:28:32 -0600
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
Message-ID: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>

The decoding of the DEC PDP XX2247 keys has been discussed, but I have not
yet seen decoding for others.

 

To repeat the data for XX2247, that is 5173757 assuming 7-1 with a center
offset

 

To add to that knowledge, I'm checking other keys I have. Note - I'm sure of
the XX values of course but the codes have not been tested/confirmed yet; I
will do so and report back.

 

For every Data General Nova (800, 1200, 1220, 2) & Eclipse (S/130, S/200)
that I have, those keys are all stamped XX2065. The coding appears to be
1353757 (7-1, center offset)

 

For every HP 2100 that I have, those keys are all stamped XX2946. The coding
appears to be 4557457 (7-1, center offset).

 

Of course, the advantage is that copies of copies tend to get off, and with
the original code we can all get "original tolerance" keys.

 

While I'm testing/confirming the codes for XX2065 and XX2946, can anyone
with stamped DG Nova/Eclipse keys or stamped HP2100 keys confirm if their XX
numbers are all the same? I've got enough of each that I'm fairly sure those
keys fit all of those systems, but wanted to check.

 

Are there other common systems that used Ace keys that we should document
besides XX2247, XX2065, and XX2946? I should probably toss up a quick
website under classiccmp if so.

 

J

 

 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 25 14:49:28 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 12:49:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <000801d16ff6$fc9b5010$f5d1f030$@net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <000801d16ff6$fc9b5010$f5d1f030$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251012490.20070@shell.lmi.net>

>> A lot of people have infringed upon my trademark.
> "Unfortunately, due to some major projects, we are temporarily suspending
> retail sales. Please be patient if we are slower than usual in response to
> inquiries during these projects. We expect to resume retail sales soon."

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Ali wrote:
> Is that just to torment people into thinking the products will eventually be
> made available again when they will not be? Just asking...

"they will not be"??!?   Of course I intend to reopen.
Calling it temporary was honest at one time, but then seemed necessary to 
discourage "abandonware" vultures.

"projects" was a euphemism for PROBLEMS.
I ran the company at a loss for a long time.  Then, I lost my lease, and 
had a crisis of storage space.  Still do.  I wonder how much stuff I can 
take to VCFWest, . . . 
The college discontinued all advanced programming classes that I taught 
(everything that had a pre-requisite).
Then they found out that one of my degrees is an MLIS, and they did an 
"involuntary reassignment" making me a librarian.
Then my mother's health collapsed and I took care of her full-time.
My best friend died in 2014
My mother died last year.
I now have two houses, with enough crap to fill three.

I always intended to re-open my programming business (and Lee Felsenstein 
says that he still wants to go back and fix problems with the Osborn 
design).  Now that I could again, should I?

There are still more disk formats to add.
There are plenty of bugs to fix.
I now know ways to make it faster.
I never mastered "Installable File System" to be able to mount an alien 
disk for active use, besides file transfer.
I want to add capability of working with disk images, besides physical 
floppies.
I want to add flux transition board support, besides normal FDC.
But, disks needing to be converted are now finally fading away rapidly.

"Free download"/shareware software relies on minimal support requirement, 
and a larger volume than is realistic to expect for this kind of software, 
unless somebody else is supporting you.  (Realistically, what does it take 
to pay the bills?) The most successful model for this kind of software is 
to do it as a hobby with an indulgent employer, or charge [PLENTY] to also 
do it as a data recovery service operation.  Retail sles of it won't pay 
for an office and/or wage for support staff.

This kind of software has an astronomical level of support requirement, 
since most new customers need to be educated starting at "what is a disk 
format, and why are they not all the same", and/or "Which of the MFM disk 
formats on the list do I select to read Apple2 disks?  I KNOW that they 
can be done, because both turn at 300RPM."  "What do you mean 'file system 
structure'?  This machine just writes straight to the disk, and then you 
ask for your document by name", "XenoCopy doesn't work. When I try to 
open the Wordstar files that it supposedly transferred from my Kaypro 
disk, Word2015 says 'unrecognized document format'"  "Our college (UC 
Berkeley) is buying ONE retail copy, which we make available for 
all students and staff to copy."
I did not refuse to provide support to those who couldn't/wouldn't tell me 
the serial number.
After providing support help to administraors of a midwestern university 
who refused to pay their purchase order, "because it never arrived", I 
stopped accepting purchase orders.
"But we are government-agency/largest-distributor-in-Europe, etc."-
"Then buy it out of YOUR personal pocket and submit paperwork for petty 
cash reimbursement of 'prepaid purchase order'"  "Yes, if you intend to 
purchase thousands of copies, you still have to pay for the first one (at 
quantity one dealer price), and then we will deduct what you paid from 
your later full-size orders."   "Free copies for 'REVIEW' are not yet 
available to publications that have not put out their first issue yet."

Plenty of "please add this disk format.  Name of the computer?  On the 
front, it says 'ADM3A'" (BTW, "Pentabs" is Vector)  Even, "I will buy ONE 
COPY, for half the list price, if you make a special version with this 
format, and don't sell any other copies that have it, because I don't want 
anybody else to be able to do this one.", "How do I put a 5 inch drive on 
my Chromebook?" I used to have capability to input your own parameters. 
But, instead of an average of less than an hour to me to add a new format, 
it typically called for far more than an hour of telephone hand-holding 
support for each one, and IF it was successful, then I would NEVER receive 
a sample disk, or even a call back with the parameters that worked, so I 
couldn't add that format into the release version of the program!  That 
capability stayed in the program, but I stopped documenting the keystrokes 
to activate it.


I may be too old, too tired, and too burned out to try.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 15:01:28 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 13:01:28 -0800
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+OONg2mACZQDwHdWeAmBS0M_fReBbiJy7qw-0X58nPZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 25, 2016 12:28 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> While I'm testing/confirming the codes for XX2065 and XX2946, can anyone
> with stamped DG Nova/Eclipse keys or stamped HP2100 keys confirm if their
XX
> numbers are all the same? I've got enough of each that I'm fairly sure
those
> keys fit all of those systems, but wanted to check.
>

The key that I have which fits my HP2100 is indeed an XX2946. I forget if I
got that key with the HP2100, or if maybe I got a spare from you years ago.

-Glen

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 25 15:18:52 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 22:18:52 +0100
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS21F3DD895D51682623BDE586A60@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jay West
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:28 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

To add to that knowledge, I'm checking other keys I have. Note - I'm sure of
the XX values of course but the codes have not been tested/confirmed yet; I
will do so and report back.

For every Data General Nova (800, 1200, 1220, 2) & Eclipse (S/130, S/200)
that I have, those keys are all stamped XX2065. The coding appears to be
1353757 (7-1, center offset)

While I'm testing/confirming the codes for XX2065 and XX2946, can anyone
with stamped DG Nova/Eclipse keys or stamped HP2100 keys confirm if their XX
numbers are all the same? I've got enough of each that I'm fairly sure those
keys fit all of those systems, but wanted to check.

Are there other common systems that used Ace keys that we should document
besides XX2247, XX2065, and XX2946? I should probably toss up a quick
website under classiccmp if so.

J
---------
I have a NOVA3 with the *original* key.
I will check what's stamped on the key this Saturday.

- Henk






From go at aerodesic.com  Thu Feb 25 15:19:05 2016
From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 13:19:05 -0800
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>

On 02/25/2016 09:12 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> ...
> 95% of the enormous volume of spam that I receive is for them. For 
> years, I assumed honest stupid mistake and I forwarded misaddressed 
> mail to them, and notified senders (mostly "current hotlist of 
> candidates"), until those headhunters started adding ME to their 
> mailing lists, and it became clear that xenosoft.us was still giving 
> out wrong address, and not making a good faith effort to get it 
> right.  Kinda a very mild DDOS attack.
> (don't like somebody?  put their address on mailing lists, that sell 
> to other mailing lists, . . . )
> I started to learn .procmailrc, . . .
>
>
> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred             cisin at xenosoft.com
>

Want to talk SPAM?  My company used to have the domain 'ao.com'.  We had 
it from the days BEFORE you need to pay for domain names - back when you 
registered with email forms...  And back BEFORE 'aol.com'. Back *before* 
SPAM.

It's amazing how much SPAM and misdirected email can come from people 
who can't seem to the 'l' on 'aol'...

We had two machines running constantly just filtering and re-directing - 
we never figured out a way to get aol to pay for this service...  So 
eventually they just went in the bit bucket.  Most of it was SPAM for 
aol customers...

At the point where we finally sold the domain to be rid of this issue 
(and make a few $) we were processing in excess of *300000* messages a 
day.  This is for a 7 person company.  It was more than 50% of the email 
processed by our ISP.  Our DSL router throttled the SMTP requests so we 
could SOME work done during the day.  Probably never caught up.  
Averaged about 10 per second during the peak period - throttled to about 
2 during our work day and all hell busted loose at night.

Our wires today are about at least 20x faster, so it would probably have 
been at least 20x more...

I hate SPAM.

-Gary


From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 25 11:14:58 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 09:14:58 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56CF2A16.2030701@compsys.to>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <56CF2A16.2030701@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_4bp9=yeVd4J3PAb6QACwjeo6oPKZcK0Tzx=U4+ckbVA@mail.gmail.com>

I use to play a version of Star Trek on an HP2000. Not a dumb terminal but
a Teletype 35. Having the paper roll came in very handy.

-pete

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:21 AM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>
wrote:

> >Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
> I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up
>> terminals this year... what are some favorites?  Some of the obvious
>> classics are:
>>
>> Adventure
>> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
>> Scott Adams Adventures
>> Wumpus
>> Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games"
>> Empire
>> Star Trek
>> rogue/hack
>> Larn/Ularn
>>
>> But what are some other favorites?  I've been running a monthly
>> "retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a
>> C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET.  I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via
>> Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11
>> box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear -
>> it's a matter of transport and storage space).  I have a VT220 and an
>> IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on
>> site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may
>> drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up).
>>
>> I have the Commodore end pretty well covered.  I'm looking for
>> suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100)
>> terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on
>> Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11.  So in general, anything that uses curses
>> or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty.
>>
>> The only game I ever played consistently was the RT-11 SST (Super Start
> Trek)
> version of Star Trek which is still available at:
>
> http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/games/
>
> Jerome Fine
>
>

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Thu Feb 25 15:35:23 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 13:35:23 -0800
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251012490.20070@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <000801d16ff6$fc9b5010$f5d1f030$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251012490.20070@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <003901d17014$6fa3fd10$4eebf730$@net>

Fred,

> "they will not be"??!?   Of course I intend to reopen.
> Calling it temporary was honest at one time, but then seemed necessary
> to discourage "abandonware" vultures.

Glad to hear it as I have tried a couple of times contacting you through the
website (info at xeno..) to see if you would be restarting sales. 


> 
> "projects" was a euphemism for PROBLEMS.

Usually is...

> I ran the company at a loss for a long time.  Then, I lost my lease,
> and had a crisis of storage space.  Still do.  I wonder how much stuff
> I can take to VCFWest, . . .

Will you be at VCFWest? I would love to meet some of the guys on the list
and put faces to names...

> My best friend died in 2014
> My mother died last year.

My condolences. Deaths in the family are always very tough!

> I now have two houses, with enough crap to fill three.


> I always intended to re-open my programming business (and Lee
> Felsenstein says that he still wants to go back and fix problems with
> the Osborn design).  Now that I could again, should I?

YES! But I do understand your point and it is a point many authors of old SW
make - I know other guys on this list who may still sell their old wares but
it is kept quite as they do not want the associated headaches, troubles,
work load, etc.

> There are still more disk formats to add.
> There are plenty of bugs to fix.
> I now know ways to make it faster.
> I never mastered "Installable File System" to be able to mount an alien
> disk for active use, besides file transfer.
> I want to add capability of working with disk images, besides physical
> floppies.
> I want to add flux transition board support, besides normal FDC.
> But, disks needing to be converted are now finally fading away rapidly.

Wow, that is a quite a wish list and I would think many people on this list
would be very happy to see them implemented.

> 
> "Free download"/shareware software relies on minimal support
> requirement, and a larger volume than is realistic to expect for this
> kind of software, unless somebody else is supporting you.
> (Realistically, what does it take to pay the bills?) The most
> successful model for this kind of software is to do it as a hobby with
> an indulgent employer, or charge [PLENTY] to also do it as a data
> recovery service operation.  Retail sles of it won't pay for an office
> and/or wage for support staff.

I entirely agree on this point and as the years go by the volume gets
smaller and smaller. That being said I've always advocated a minimal fee/no
support model for old software that is no longer profitable to sell. That
is, if you truly do not want a commercial enterprise, you make the SW
available for purchase at a minimal fee (or no fee) and offer absolutely no
support. That way the buyer gets a non-crippled licensed copy and support is
based on the community (if there is any). 

 
> I may be too old, too tired, and too burned out to try.

I hope not - and if you ever decide to sell XenoCopy-PC, XenoFonts, and/or
XenoComm-Parallel you have at least one ready and willing customer!

-Ali


From plamenspam at afterpeople.com  Thu Feb 25 16:15:33 2016
From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 00:15:33 +0200
Subject: AIX Dev CD
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE99381@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76AE99381@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <CAPLeS_qkMjT2p1bViUM0JuEnjgzYqkgTagotByWZAuNwF6MJMw@mail.gmail.com>

I have the fifth edition set, send me a PM.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Benjamin Huntsman <
BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:

> By any strange chance, does anyone have a really old 2-CD set called
> "Software Development Solutions for AIX Version 4", Fifth Edition?  I guess
> they were fairly common at one point.  If anyone has one they can spare,
> I'll pay...
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Ben
>

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 17:27:28 2016
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:27:28 -0500
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)


> The decoding of the DEC PDP XX2247 keys has been discussed, but I have not
> yet seen decoding for others.
...

> Are there other common systems that used Ace keys that we should document
> besides XX2247, XX2065, and XX2946? I should probably toss up a quick
> website under classiccmp if so.
> 

Cromemco: XX4306

FWIW, they also used a couple of higher-security non-Ace keys, flat with dimples in the side.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb 25 17:41:46 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:41:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> [...ao.com...]

> At the point where we finally sold the domain to be rid of this issue
> (and make a few $) we were processing in excess of *300000* messages
> a day.  This is for a 7 person company.  It was more than 50% of the
> email processed by our ISP.  Our DSL router throttled the SMTP
> requests so we could SOME work done during the day.

Hm?  You're implying your ISP was handling your mail, but then you
imply you were handling your own mail.  I'm a little confused.

The main reason I'm writing, though, is a bit different.

That there's a company I know that was in a somewhat similar position -
they were getting so much spam bounce blowback that they were shutting
off all incoming SMTP during the day to keep the machine up.  I wrote a
very lightweight SMTP server for them; it accepts connections and talks
SMTP until it gets a valid recipient, and then - and only then -
connects through to the real SMTP server and passes protocol both ways.
It was very good at turning away mail to unknown addresses.  There was
one time when some host in south-east Asia opened about 100 parallel
connections and started a dumb-as-rocks dictionary attack.  It turned
away many tens of thousands of unknown recipients in something like
thirty seconds, and, even knowing exactly when it happened, I couldn't
find the blip on our load graphs - it was drowned out by the noise.  If
I hadn't been reading the logs for other reasons and stumbled across it
I never would have known it happened at all.

Obviously, it's of no direct use to you now that you don't hold ao.com
any longer.  But in case you - or anyone else - is interested, I got
their approval to open the code up; it's available to anyone who cares
to fetch a copy.  ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/pub/mouse/misc/mail/shim/
is the place to look for those interested.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 25 17:42:17 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 17:42:17 -0600
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
Message-ID: <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>

Mike wrote...
------
Cromemco: XX4306
------
Thanks for chiming in Mike, could use all the datapoints we can get. Can you
elucidate which models of cromemco XX4306 works on? I'm not familiar with
those machines other than I know there was a 2 and a 3... something about Z
comes to mind... And on a specific model, are you able to try/confirm XX4306
on multiple machines?

Also - before we get too wide on the systems tracked... the "standard" ace
key had a barrel outer diameter of 0.375" and 7 positions. I am aware of 2
other variants that had different barrel OD's and different number of
positions.

So mike - what's the OD of your key, and is it 7 positions (concave
semi-circles around the key)?

Some mfg's could have used a different key in each individual machine/lock.
Others could have used the same key for all machines, or the same key for
all machines of a specific model. It is also certainly possible that some
mfg's used two or three different ones over the life of a model/series.

So, the more datapoints the better.

I'm pretty sure that *ALL* 2100's use the XX2946. I probably have over time
had at least 8 2100s, and currently have 4 or 5, and the same key works on
all of them. These all came from widely dispersed geographies.

I have "more than a few" DG Nova's, and the same key works in every one of
them, and they came from varied sources. I only have two Eclipses though, so
small sample size there.

J



From mark at markesystems.com  Thu Feb 25 17:50:00 2016
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:50:00 -0800
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1456336800.40182.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1456336800.40182.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <90BAC99584724190993C5E0A3E9F7A58@Daedalus>

From: "GerardCJAT" <gerardcjat at free.fr>

Subject: Who, on this list, Owns / Collects / Plays with an HP1000 A
or L series ??

> Just curious.
> It seems ( at first ) that most collections stops at 21MX ( M/E/F ) era.
> Am I correct in my view ?

Except for the time I spent as a system manager on a couple of 2000/Access 
systems, in college, the A-series was my introduction to the 1000 line.  I 
spent several years programming that - all A600s, except at the end when the 
A400 came out, and all in Fortran-77 under RTE-A.  Industrial control 
systems, mostly, although I did right for in-house use a terminal control 
package (similar in concept, but by no means execution, to termcap), a 
full-screen hex file editor, a little mail system, etc..  It really seemed 
like you could do almost anything you wanted as far as system calls, etc. 
from the high level language - shared memory (SHEMA), inter-process 
communication (using Class-IO), etc.  I never ventured in to assembly on it.

I hated the full-screen editor (it would write a full screenful of data to 
the 26xx terminal, which you would then locally then cause it to read it 
back off the screen), which is why I wrote my own WordStar-like editor.

I also ended up with a really nice fully decked-out A600 system, with a 
couple of terminals, the built-in disk plus a 7912, plenty of memory, and an 
8-port mux.  Of ourse, like an idiot, I gave all that away to the Salvation 
Army (the wife couldn't understand its intrinsic value like I did).
~~
Mark Moulding


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Feb 25 18:14:53 2016
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 00:14:53 +0000
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
 <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <56CF98FD.4010405@dunnington.plus.com>

On 25/02/2016 23:42, Jay West wrote:
> Mike wrote...
> ------
> Cromemco: XX4306
> ------
> Thanks for chiming in Mike, could use all the datapoints we can get. Can you
> elucidate which models of cromemco XX4306 works on?

I can only increase the sample size by one for the moment, but my System 
Three does indeed use XX4306.  I have access to a pair of Z2 machines in 
a few days, so I can check them too.

-- 
Pete

From go at ao-cs.com  Thu Feb 25 18:41:51 2016
From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 16:41:51 -0800
Subject: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>
 <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56CF9F4F.2010606@ao-cs.com>

On 02/25/2016 03:41 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> [...ao.com...]
>> At the point where we finally sold the domain to be rid of this issue
>> (and make a few $) we were processing in excess of *300000* messages
>> a day.  This is for a 7 person company.  It was more than 50% of the
>> email processed by our ISP.  Our DSL router throttled the SMTP
>> requests so we could SOME work done during the day.
> Hm?  You're implying your ISP was handling your mail, but then you
> imply you were handling your own mail.  I'm a little confused.
>
> The main reason I'm writing, though, is a bit different.
>
> That there's a company I know that was in a somewhat similar position -
> they were getting so much spam bounce blowback that they were shutting
> off all incoming SMTP during the day to keep the machine up.  I wrote a
> very lightweight SMTP server for them; it accepts connections and talks
> SMTP until it gets a valid recipient, and then - and only then -
> connects through to the real SMTP server and passes protocol both ways.
> It was very good at turning away mail to unknown addresses.  There was
> one time when some host in south-east Asia opened about 100 parallel
> connections and started a dumb-as-rocks dictionary attack.  It turned
> away many tens of thousands of unknown recipients in something like
> thirty seconds, and, even knowing exactly when it happened, I couldn't
> find the blip on our load graphs - it was drowned out by the noise.  If
> I hadn't been reading the logs for other reasons and stumbled across it
> I never would have known it happened at all.
>
> Obviously, it's of no direct use to you now that you don't hold ao.com
> any longer.  But in case you - or anyone else - is interested, I got
> their approval to open the code up; it's available to anyone who cares
> to fetch a copy.  ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/pub/mouse/misc/mail/shim.
> is the place to look for those interested.
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

They weren't 'handling' it - sorry if I typed something confusing. They 
were merely
noticing the volume of traffic heading to our SMTP servers from their 
infrastructure.

Our ISP at that time was a small, local outfit and we knew all the tech 
support folks
personally.  I guess they saw this traffic while trying to analyse why 
there was so
much 'noise' in the data THEY processed locally.

Your described hack sounds like something my 'network admin' did for 
us.  Made some
very light-weight decisions to try and drop as much as possible.  He was 
(is) a Perl GURU,
now working for the ISP mentioned.  Alas, we are no longer with them as 
we are beyond
DSL distance (due to more off-topic noise about our local phone company.)

Our volume is much lighter these days but I'm always trying to improve 
stuff (still
way too much spam) so, thanks.  I will probably grab a copy of what you 
did and see
if it can be of use to us.  *THANKS*

Now back to regular on topic stuff.



-- -Gary

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 25 18:58:30 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 00:58:30 +0000
Subject: SIM4-01 and MP7 programmer cards
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB0722A2E8C91DDBDA4FC89A69A3A70@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I know this is kind of obscure but I thought I'd see if anyone was interested

in the program I wrote.

It is for the SIM4-01 and MP7 boards.

Normally these two boards would plug into a mother board called the MCB4

but I've seen a few cases on the web that they'd been wired from socket to socket.

Normally they'd be used with the A0540, A0541 and A0543 EPROMs to program

1702As on the MP7 cards.

The data for the proms would be sent to the SIM4 board over a serial current

loop at 110 baud. It was in what Intel called a BPNF format. Each bit of the

byte would be sent as either a P or N for the 8 bit data width. This extends the

programming time for a 1702A from a little over 2 minutes to over 7 minutes.

I still use my SIM4 setup to occasionally program one or two 1702A for friends.

Recently, I was given a large number to program. I did these slowly a 7 minutes

each. I soon realized I could write some 4004 code to copy the EPROMs.

I'd only need to down load the first one at 7 minutes and the reset at 2 minutes each.

There were some issues, the SIM4-01 only has 256 nibbles of memory,

unlike the SIM4-02 that has more. There was code for the larger board in

one of the manuals on bitsavers but the code was written for the larger memory.

I needed to make a two pass system and it expected there to be a copy from

socket. This required a complete rewrite.

The code in the manual did both the 1702 and the 1702A. I really only needed

the 1702A part. Non-A parts are as rare as hen's teeth.

I also wanted to add some code to do a RAM test since I would use 100% of

the character RAM.

I wanted to do a March C test but because of size had to settle for a simple

data/data complement stuck at test.

I wanted every thing to fit into a single 1702A. My first pass code was over

300+ bytes. I needed to reduce down to 256 bytes. I worked on the code

for about a week and finally got it down to 252 bytes.

I use a simple simulator that I wrote because I don't understand the simulators

on the web enough to connect things to I/O actions. I needed to simulate

a master EPROM and a copy to EPROM as well as the test switch for sequencing

when to put each EPROM in the sockets. There were of course status lights

so a person knew what stage they were at.

Anyway, I created a program I call onecopy. If anyone is interested in it,

I can send them a binary or intel hex file.

Dwight


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 25 19:01:44 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 19:01:44 -0600
Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
Message-ID: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>

I'll put the list of ACE keys (and codes, as we get them) on a website on
the classiccmp server for posterity.

Actually, this whole thing came up in my brain due to tracking down keys for
a Pr1me machine (non-ace). 

But I did find there is apparently a service http://key.me where you take a
picture of your key with their app, and they mail you a copy (or if there is
a kiosk of theirs in your area, you can do it real time there).

They must have some "internal representation" of a key such that a key (any
key, any size, including car keys that are those "grooves") can be stored
"digitally" and downloaded. I wonder if similar art exists such that we
could store "whatever is necessary" to reproduce keys other than ACE ones
(rack cabinets, etc.). It would have to be something that can be presented
to a locksmith to make...

Just a thought...

J





From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 25 19:12:50 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 01:12:50 +0000
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <56CF98FD.4010405@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
 <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>,
 <56CF98FD.4010405@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB07226EFBC57989279B75A15BA3A70@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I have one of those dang round keys on my Nicolt 1080.
I just took the lock out to a real lock smith and he made two keys
for it in a day for $25.
I regret to say his shop has moved or he quite the business.
I took another lock to another shop an they said they didn't
have anyone that could make a key for it.
I guess they were just the key copy and tumbler replacement
type lock smith.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 4:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)

On 25/02/2016 23:42, Jay West wrote:
> Mike wrote...
> ------
> Cromemco: XX4306
> ------
> Thanks for chiming in Mike, could use all the datapoints we can get. Can you
> elucidate which models of cromemco XX4306 works on?

I can only increase the sample size by one for the moment, but my System
Three does indeed use XX4306.  I have access to a pair of Z2 machines in
a few days, so I can check them too.

--
Pete

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 19:21:06 2016
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:21:06 -0500
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
 <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <6BF72E2AFAC643E1B727736805629B7D@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)


> Mike wrote...
> ------
> Cromemco: XX4306
> ------
> Thanks for chiming in Mike, could use all the datapoints we can get. Can you
> elucidate which models of cromemco XX4306 works on? I'm not familiar with
> those machines other than I know there was a 2 and a 3... something about Z
> comes to mind... And on a specific model, are you able to try/confirm XX4306
> on multiple machines?

AFAIK all models using a tubular Ace key used that same number.

They were used in the various versions of the System One and System Three 
(CS-1, CS-3, CS-100); Z systems didn't have keylocks, and the other (later) 
CS-x00 (200, 300 and 400) series used the KABA flat keys with dimples 
(which were also all the same number AFAIK, EB0001).

http://www.computercloset.org/CromemcoSystem1.htm

http://www.oldcomputers.net/cromemco-system-three.html

http://www.dantiques.com/computers/cromemco/100300.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco

KABA keys:

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=57825

Some models also used 'normal' keys for access to the card cage etc.

> Also - before we get too wide on the systems tracked... the "standard" ace
> key had a barrel outer diameter of 0.375" and 7 positions. I am aware of 2
> other variants that had different barrel OD's and different number of
> positions.
> 
> So mike - what's the OD of your key, and is it 7 positions (concave
> semi-circles around the key)?

0.375", 7 positions. If I can find my micrometer I'll measure them; wasn't there an old thread about Ace key codes?

m


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 25 19:21:50 2016
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 01:21:50 +0000
Subject: Searching a sparepart 82c42pc
In-Reply-To: <56CF50E7.1040403@familie-rauhut.eu>
References: <56CF50E7.1040403@familie-rauhut.eu>
Message-ID: <BN3PR14MB07229E889B85AB383447410EA3A70@BN3PR14MB0722.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

There are a number of these on ebay for a reasonable price.
I'd think you could just by one for under $6 and not worry about it.
Dwight


________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Marco Rauhut <marco at familie-rauhut.eu>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 11:07 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Searching a sparepart 82c42pc

Hello list

I am trying to restore an Wandel and Golterman Spectrum Analyzer.
In the Analyzer is a 486DX2 Computer. This Computer did not save some
bios settings.
So i think that the CMOS ram has a failure.
Did some one have a 82c42pc  in dil40 package as spare part?

If yes, please contact me off list.

Marco

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 25 19:47:26 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 19:47:26 -0600
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <6BF72E2AFAC643E1B727736805629B7D@310e2>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
 <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>
 <6BF72E2AFAC643E1B727736805629B7D@310e2>
Message-ID: <000101d17037$a5836920$f08a3b60$@classiccmp.org>

Mike wrote...
-----
0.375", 7 positions. If I can find my micrometer I'll measure them; wasn't
there an old thread about Ace key codes?
-----
Great info Mike, thanks!

Micrometer measurement is step 1. Step 2 is verification, meaning give the
resulting code to a locksmith and have them make a key from codes only, not
a copy. Once you verify that key works in your machine, we can be sure it's
right (it's easy to make a 0.016" mistake ;)

Positions are 7 to 1 (holding key as if to use, 7 is top left and goes
counter-clockwise). Codes are 1 through 8 starting at 0.016 (1) through
0.128 (8) in 0.016 increments. So 4 is 0.064, etc.

Old thread - I know that there was lots of talk about the DEC PDP XX2247
key. I don't think I've ever seen/heard any discussion of memorializing
others (non-dec).... and we should :)

J





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 25 19:50:24 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 17:50:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251704380.20070@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Jay West wrote:
> They must have some "internal representation" of a key such that a key (any
> key, any size, including car keys that are those "grooves") can be stored
> "digitally" and downloaded. I wonder if similar art exists such that we
> could store "whatever is necessary" to reproduce keys other than ACE ones
> (rack cabinets, etc.). It would have to be something that can be presented
> to a locksmith to make...
> Just a thought...

Asking a locksmith to cut a key from information is called "code cutting". 
Some municipalities have restrictions on it, ranging from no restrictions 
to outright ban, or requiring the locksmith to keep on file the identity 
of who requested a key, and/or "proof" of ownership of the lock 
(physically bringing it in, letter on company letterhead, etc.)


The information for code cutting is straight-forward.

Which blank.
Usually done by pre-made blanks, in specific sizes and milling.
A machinist certaily COULD mill a new blank, or modify a thicker one, but 
I don't know anybody who does that, since even "restricted" keyblanks are 
not generally hard to come by.

Spacing.
How far each cut is from the stop (less commonly (such as Best) indexed 
from tip) 4, 5, 6, or 7 cuts.   Standardized by manufacturers for each 
blank.

Depth.
How deep each cut is.  Most will have 7 to 10 different depths that are 
used, identified by a digit that can then be looked up in manufacturer's 
"depth and spacingg" database (readily available to locksmiths) to find 
how deep the cut should be.  Some number from 0, some from 1

For example:
Schlage SC1 7 4 1 3 7
would be a Schlage SC1 blank, with cuts of Schlage standard #7 depth, #4 
depth, #1 depth, #3 depth, #7 depth


SOME manufacturers, such as Schlage, will stamp the depth numbers on the 
bow of the key.  Some don't.  Some obfuscate the numbers, for example, in 
the 1970s, Honda would reverse the sequence, and a 75132 would be a key 
with depths of 2 3 1 5 7 (almost as obscure as ROT-13!)
Many companies stamp a semi-unique number that has no algorithmic 
relationship to the depths, but instead is used to look up the depths in a 
"Code Book" (MOST of which are readily available to locksmiths).  For 
example, XX2065 does not tell the cuts, BUT, looking it up in the 
appropriate code book tells the cuts (1353757)
Code books, either dead-tree or digital are ogften available on eBay.

SOME times, the number is stamped on the lock.  For example, the key code 
number for one car is on a paper sticker inside the glove compartment 
(Datsun 300SX), on another, it is stamped on the side of the lock cylinder 
inside the passenger side door.

An image of sufficient clarity to be able to identify which blank, and to 
determine WHICH depths of the cuts is enough to make a key.  Rememeber, 
you don't need to MEASURE from the picture, just enough to decide whether 
it is a 3 cut or a 4 cut.

Back when I was working on cars, customers would often drop off a car 
before opening time, and forget to leave the key, or lock it in the car. 
Rather than open the car without the key (pretty easy) to retrieve the key 
or pick the ignition lock, I could call the customer and have them read 
the number on their other key (or see the key sitting on the seat and read 
the number through the window!), and simply cut a new key for them.  Not 
only would it sive time, it would usually fit better than their currently 
WORN key.

A competent locksmith can tell what blank, and the list of cuts from a 
quick glance at a key.


Therefore, the database should identify the key blank, the key number (if 
there is one), and the cuts of the keys (in case code-book is not readily 
available).  If depth and spacing data for that company and blank are not 
readily available, then it should also list the physical depth of each 
cut, and the space/distance from the stop for each cut.

I'm sure that there are some machines and some companies where each 
key/lock is different, either originally or rekeyed as a security upgrade. 
But most computers go their whole lives with whatever default key was 
initially installed.  By analogy: what is the default password?
How many machines use XX2247?


Code cutting calls for a calibrated key cutting machine.  There is one 
that is made out a Unimat, and there are squeeze handle hand held ones, 
used for automotive keys.
OR a key duplicator, plus a key with the right spacing, and a key that has 
a 1 cut, a key that has a 2 cut, a key with a 3 cut, etc.  Called a "set 
of depth and space keys".
Some modern cars use a "laser-cut" key.  There ain't no laser.  It's just 
a side-cutting mill with a pantograph.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 25 20:04:17 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:04:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <000101d17037$a5836920$f08a3b60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C3BAD132460B4EB589DAB5C3A9FFB7C9@310e2>
 <000201d17026$29bc4ed0$7d34ec70$@classiccmp.org>
 <6BF72E2AFAC643E1B727736805629B7D@310e2>
 <000101d17037$a5836920$f08a3b60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251758270.20070@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Jay West wrote:
> Old thread - I know that there was lots of talk about the DEC PDP XX2247
> key. I don't think I've ever seen/heard any discussion of memorializing
> others (non-dec).... and we should :)

Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 10:22:32 -0400
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: KEYS

He described the basics, in regards to the XX2247.


With a code book, the key number (XX2247) is all that is needed.
Without a code book, but with depth and spacing info, the list of cuts is 
what is needed.
Without depth and spacing info, the depths of the cuts are needed, along 
with where to put them.

Since we can not assume convenient acces to code books or even depth and 
spacing charts, (any locksmiths here besides Ethan's brother?) we should 
keep track of all three levels.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Feb 25 20:07:54 2016
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:07:54 -0600
Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251704380.20070@shell.lmi.net>
References: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251704380.20070@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <000201d1703a$81650370$842f0a50$@classiccmp.org>

Fred wrote...
-----
Some municipalities have restrictions on it, ranging from no restrictions to
outright ban, or requiring the locksmith to keep on file the identity of who
requested a key, and/or "proof" of ownership of the lock (physically
bringing it in, letter on company letterhead, etc.)
-----
My current locksmith - the first time I went in and asked him to cut a key,
he said since it was stamped "do not duplicate" I would have to bring in the
item it went to. I walked out. Came back later that day with a two wheeler,
and lifted an HP 2100S cpu onto his counter. He no longer asks ;)

Fred that's fantastic info, thanks a ton. I imagine that if I post the info,
it's up to anyone wanting a key to find a locksmith that will do it, or
drive to a different municipality, etc.... I'm just supplying the data :)

One thing strikes me... how to prevent incorrect data. I can think of two
types; A) Someone just types in bogus info, and B) I'm sure that over the
decades... someone in some computer room somewhere replaced a lock for
system XYZ with a standard off the shelf one. If they measure it and send in
the info - we have no way of knowing if that was a (computer) manufacturer
supplied lock and thus helpful to others, or some one-off that someone
installed themselves and thus an invalid datapoint.

Perhaps only list an entry if more than one person submits identical data?

J



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb 25 20:34:16 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:34:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <000201d1703a$81650370$842f0a50$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251704380.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <000201d1703a$81650370$842f0a50$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602251814150.20070@shell.lmi.net>

> Some municipalities have restrictions on it, ranging from no restrictions to
> outright ban, or requiring the locksmith to keep on file the identity of who
> requested a key, and/or "proof" of ownership of the lock (physically
> bringing it in, letter on company letterhead, etc.)

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Jay West wrote:
> My current locksmith - the first time I went in and asked him to cut a key,
> he said since it was stamped "do not duplicate" I would have to bring in the
> item it went to. I walked out. Came back later that day with a two wheeler,
> and lifted an HP 2100S cpu onto his counter. He no longer asks ;)

Many locksmiths, including most big-box home improvement stores (who no 
longer keep a decent array of keys), will cut a duplicate of a key that 
has a piece of masking tape over a "Do Not Duplicate" stamp!
It is illegal to duplicate a DO-NOT-Duplicate key for anybody too stupid 
to cover the staamp.

> One thing strikes me... how to prevent incorrect data. I can think of two
> types; A) Someone just types in bogus info, and B) I'm sure that over the
> decades... someone in some computer room somewhere replaced a lock for
> system XYZ with a standard off the shelf one. If they measure it and send in
> the info - we have no way of knowing if that was a (computer) manufacturer
> supplied lock and thus helpful to others, or some one-off that someone
> installed themselves and thus an invalid datapoint.
> Perhaps only list an entry if more than one person submits identical data?

Howzbout: list any that are reported, and a count of how many report that 
particular info.  That way, a single instance provides a hint of possible 
inaccuracies (easy to do), or even completely different than standard 
lock.   A dozen people reporting identical data is a pretty good 
confirmation, and if it doesn't work for you, then YOUR lock may have been 
replaced at some point.
If only one other person has that machine, I'd rather have their 
unconfimed measurements than a void in the database.


BTW, a decent machinist could easily build an Ace lock picking tool that 
is calibrated - the sliders could be set to me the same depths as any Ace 
key.  Without knowledge of commercial availability, I designed one (but 
didn't build) in high school half a century ago.



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Thu Feb 25 20:48:14 2016
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 21:48:14 -0500
Subject: QI Series M, episode 16, Misconceptions...
Message-ID: <01d201d17040$23f40eb0$6bdc2c10$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

To start with, I guess I should warn those who are not
familiar with this program that the humor is not for
everyone.  It goes from very interesting and intellectual
(the title "QI" stands for Quite Interesting) to the
scatological and rather crass.  Anyway, that said, in the
episode referenced in the title, the host, Stephen Fry,
explains Moore's Law.  As he does so, he shows a number of
vintage computer items borrowed from Bletchley Park.  The
episode is the latest one (aired last week I think) and is
available on YouTube.

Bill S.



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Feb 25 20:50:00 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 21:50:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> X.org has gone modular at some point and that does help -- compared
> to monolithic X servers as they used to be -- with computers which
> are not the richest in resources, [...]

I don't quite see how; I'd rather have a non-modular server for my
hardware than a modular server plus modules for my hardware.  I really
dislike the current trend to dynamically loading everything in sight;
it is a security disaster waiting to happen and it is bloat.  And the
current trend to expect the X server to run as root, even on hardware
without the peecee video disaster to excuse it, is just insane.  (For
example, on SPARCs I found the server trying to do its own sbus
enumeration, something it has no business going anywhere near,
presumably because someone thought it was a sane way to "port" code
that did PCI enumeration.)  On hardware where it works, I still use
X11R6.4p3.

But, well, if you find it helps you, whatever works.  I hold my nose
and use X.org servers on a few peecees that X11R6.4p3 doesn't support.
(I do insist on fixing the cursor extension bug, though; it's annoying.
Not that older X servers are perfect either; I found a crasher bug in
wide line drawing the hard way....)

>> But, yes, consider it a warning to look into it before just assuming
>> that the support will (a) be there and (b) be non-bitrotted.  [...]
> Honestly I'd expect dumb frame buffer support to just work, as there
> isn't much there to break or maintain.

You'd think so, but in a day when "everything" has a (by our standards)
high-end 3D rendering engine in front of it, it would not surprise me
if dumb memory-mapped framebuffer access had bitrotted.  Indeed, one of
the things I fuzzily recall is that X.org requires the device-dependent
layers to support some kind of acceleration framework (the alphabet
soup that comes to mind is "XAA", but I could be misremembering).

> A pixel array and a RAMDAC handled entirely by the kernel via generic
> calls isn't rocket science after all.

No, it isn't.  But apparently modern X has advanced enough that it can
no longer do some things X Consortium sample servers from three decades
ago could.  It's a bit like monitors: apparently flatscreen technology
has improved to the point where monitors can no longer do what CRTs
from multiple decades ago did routinely.

> So if they broke some generic parts (DIX) by the lack of due
> attention, then I'm really concerned.

I don't think they did, but AIUI their DIX code expects the DDX code to
support a bunch of cr...er, stuff, that has no relevance if you don't
have a 3D rendering engine in your hardware, which may well mean that
the dumb-framebuffer DDX implementations have been thrown away because
they no longer work with the modern DIX code and nobody stepped up to
continue twisting them into nastier and nastier pretzels to accommodate
more and more DIX-layer peecee-world assumptions....

Fortunately, old X still works as well as it ever did.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb 25 21:01:39 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 19:01:39 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
Message-ID: <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>

A few more (I have source):

Hockey
Fleet (sort of battleship game)
Football
Lunar Lander (of course!)
Blackjack
Lots and lots of printer art

--Chuck


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Thu Feb 25 21:33:19 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 19:33:19 -0800
Subject: Keys - Non-Ace was RE: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000601d17031$42c4b0b0$c84e1210$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <00C657F8-3081-4EA9-B538-C04FC0C3EA93@orthanc.ca>


> On Feb 25, 2016, at 5:01 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> But I did find there is apparently a service http://key.me where you take a
> picture of your key with their app, and they mail you a copy (or if there is
> a kiosk of theirs in your area, you can do it real time there).

Ooh! I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of *their* customer database :-)

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 18:45:27 2016
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 19:45:27 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=9CZTRnpk9vsZ64C_oaWo2B95z1kuUNaqqWbLAyFvc4oA@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:47:37 -0500
> From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
>         differences?? OEM?
>
> are  you sure its not H720 rather than 4720?  H720 would be the type of
> power supply from an original 11.  M11 15 would seem like the OEM 11/20
> after they abandoned the 11/10 model.  My hunch would be the date code is
> late 1970 early 1971.
> --
> @ BillDeg:
>

I looked at the picture of the metal serial number tag again. It is
definitely 4720. The white paper tag for the system configuration says that
it was configured on 3/3/73 with a KC11 processor, two DL11A serial ports,
an MM11E memory, and a H720E power supply.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 03:45:49 2016
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 04:45:49 -0500
Subject: VAX-11/730 success!
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPTwrdvSZa0cGuhLaH34Ma9PwUZVEBJkZYRNOb1EHRHXg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to those who helped and advised; I discovered a problematic pin
on the TU58 10-pin DIP connector. With this fixed, TU58EM worked
correctly and the console code loaded. The CPU passes diags as far as
the RL02 test; not surprising as there's no RL controller or drive -
or the special diag pack! - installed.

On a point of order... is there any reason an Emulex UCxx Unibus SCSI
controller wouldn't work in this machine? Anyone with any experience
there? If it emulates an MSCP disk closely it should Just Work? I'm
thinking a SCSI2SD solution to give me a reliable one-box system...

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From mattislind at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 05:46:07 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 12:46:07 +0100
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-26 4:01 GMT+01:00 Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>:

> A few more (I have source):
>
> Hockey
> Fleet (sort of battleship game)
> Football
> Lunar Lander (of course!)
> Blackjack
> Lots and lots of printer art
>
> --Chuck
>
>
When at Retrogathering in V?ster?s (Sweden) a month a ago we demonstrated
ASCII Mandelbrot (BASIC) on a VT100 generated by a PDP-11/03 . Takes quite
a while for it to do it.

http://i.imgur.com/v6FI5Cd.jpg

There is also a poker game that's work well under RT-11 BASIC and
CAPS-11/BASIC.

/Mattis

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 26 06:21:13 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 07:21:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date
 differences?? OEM?
Message-ID: <20160226122113.D2DE718C0E0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Michael Thompson

    > The white paper tag for the system configuration says that it was
    > configured on 3/3/73 with a KC11 processor

That's an -11/15, then. The -11/20 has a KA11 processor. So the front panel
just says "pdp-11"?

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 26 08:04:30 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 09:04:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
Message-ID: <20160226140430.DE21918C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mattis Lind

    > The NC is in the BA11-D 10 1/2 inch box. It uses the H750 PSU.

Odd. I have an -11/10 in a 10-1/2 box with an H750; the metal plate on the
back of the box just says "PDP 11-10" (well, the '-' is actually a dot, at
the level of the '-'). No 'NC'. I wonder if that's a configuration
designator, not a model?

{At this point, IRL, I did a whole lot of reading and looking.}

I looked in some old PDP-11/05-10 price lists... (More "11/21"s... :-), and
did find some -11/05 models with pretty large alphabetic model designators,
e.g. "11/05-LB", but no "11/10-NC". However, the "Options and Modules List"
online from June, 1974 _does_ list the "11/10-NC" - it describes it as
"KD11-B, BA-11DC 10.5 INCH BOX, MM11-L, KY11-JE, CONFIG 4, 115V". There's
also an "11/05-NC", the same except for a "KY11-JD" (that must be for the
different number printed on the faceplate). No idea what the "CONFIG 4"
means...

However, the real victory came when looking in my just-acquired copy of
DEC-11-H05AA-B-D.pdf. I see it also includes a "DEC-11-H05AA-B-D Supplement
1", which is the "PDP-11/05, 11/10 10 1/2 inch mounting box and power system"
- and that _does_ describe the NC/ND (120V/240V). And those have a slightly
different backplane (below) from the ones described in DEC-11-H05AA-A-D; so
that's a fourth model of -11/05-10 backplane - and it does differentiate
the -11/05N-10N (as I will call them) from the others.

    > I have three machines with three different backplanes. One 11/05-NC,
    > one 11/10 in 5.25 inch box and one 11/05-S in BA11-K.

What kind of backplane does the second one have; one of the 2xMM11-L CPU
backplanes (one with, and one without, an SPC slot), or the 1xMM11-L?

    > NC can have two MM11-L. No SPC slots.

Got it. I was very confused, because the 11/05-10 manual (DEC-11-H05AA-A-D)
says that the 2xMM11-L backplane has one SPC slot (the last one, IIRC).
However, as noted, the -11/05N-10N apparently has a different backplane, to
accomodate the M9970 dual console serial line connector card. (That backplane
isn't documented in the DEC-11-H05AA-A-D -11/05-10 manual I'd been looking at
- that manual doesn't show a space on the 2xMM11-L backplane for that card).
However, the later "PDP-11/05, 11/10 10 1/2 inch mounting box and power
system" manual _does_ describe it; and in adding a slot for the M9970, they
lost the SPC slot in the 2xMM11-L backplane.

So I guess that's the one you're talking about here?


    > From: Bill Degnan

    > The more useful box is the S model because the more standard enclosure
    > can be used for testing other UNIBUS cards more easily or than parity
    > RAM.

?? How is is better? The BA11-D box will hold hex cards? Or are the SPC slots
in the 11/05-10S backplane MUD slots? Or is it just that the BA11-K will hold
DD11-C/D backplanes, with MUD slots? (I don't know if there are any MUD
backplanes that go into the BA11-D - at least without a hand-mod to the power
connector.)

	Noel

From mattislind at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 09:05:07 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 16:05:07 +0100
Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10
In-Reply-To: <20160226140430.DE21918C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160226140430.DE21918C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKSvkaDA3JGknygmi_=tYT6t71UZzDj46d27mf5-8_FBQ@mail.gmail.com>

2016-02-26 15:04 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

>     > From: Mattis Lind
>
>     > The NC is in the BA11-D 10 1/2 inch box. It uses the H750 PSU.
>
> Odd. I have an -11/10 in a 10-1/2 box with an H750; the metal plate on the
> back of the box just says "PDP 11-10" (well, the '-' is actually a dot, at
> the level of the '-'). No 'NC'. I wonder if that's a configuration
> designator, not a model?
>
>
Min doesn't say NC / ND either.

http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-05

I have a physical tech manual (which is not the same as the one at
bitsavers) and engineering drawings (which is the same as the one at
bitsavers
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf
)

I should probably scan that tech manual if someone hasn't done it already.
Compared to the one at bitsavers it for example include an appendix
 related to some minor modifications that had been done to the CPU board
set.



> {At this point, IRL, I did a whole lot of reading and looking.}
>
> I looked in some old PDP-11/05-10 price lists... (More "11/21"s... :-), and
> did find some -11/05 models with pretty large alphabetic model designators,
> e.g. "11/05-LB", but no "11/10-NC". However, the "Options and Modules List"
> online from June, 1974 _does_ list the "11/10-NC" - it describes it as
> "KD11-B, BA-11DC 10.5 INCH BOX, MM11-L, KY11-JE, CONFIG 4, 115V". There's
> also an "11/05-NC", the same except for a "KY11-JD" (that must be for the
> different number printed on the faceplate). No idea what the "CONFIG 4"
> means...
>
> However, the real victory came when looking in my just-acquired copy of
> DEC-11-H05AA-B-D.pdf. I see it also includes a "DEC-11-H05AA-B-D Supplement
> 1", which is the "PDP-11/05, 11/10 10 1/2 inch mounting box and power
> system"
> - and that _does_ describe the NC/ND (120V/240V). And those have a slightly
> different backplane (below) from the ones described in DEC-11-H05AA-A-D; so
> that's a fourth model of -11/05-10 backplane - and it does differentiate
> the -11/05N-10N (as I will call them) from the others.
>
>     > I have three machines with three different backplanes. One 11/05-NC,
>     > one 11/10 in 5.25 inch box and one 11/05-S in BA11-K.
>

I was lying a little bit when saying NC. Actually it is the ND model for
obvious reasons. But the difference is subtle. Just the power input module.


>
> What kind of backplane does the second one have; one of the 2xMM11-L CPU
> backplanes (one with, and one without, an SPC slot), or the 1xMM11-L?
>

It is the 1xMM11-L type of backplane. But the system came with an extra
5.25 inch memory box. Identical to the CPU but different backplane for
three more MM11-L modules

http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-10---s-n-pr0313150



>
>     > NC can have two MM11-L. No SPC slots.
>
> Got it. I was very confused, because the 11/05-10 manual (DEC-11-H05AA-A-D)
> says that the 2xMM11-L backplane has one SPC slot (the last one, IIRC).
> However, as noted, the -11/05N-10N apparently has a different backplane, to
> accomodate the M9970 dual console serial line connector card. (That
> backplane
> isn't documented in the DEC-11-H05AA-A-D -11/05-10 manual I'd been looking
> at
> - that manual doesn't show a space on the 2xMM11-L backplane for that
> card).
> However, the later "PDP-11/05, 11/10 10 1/2 inch mounting box and power
> system" manual _does_ describe it; and in adding a slot for the M9970, they
> lost the SPC slot in the 2xMM11-L backplane.
>
> So I guess that's the one you're talking about here?
>

It is the latter with space for the M9970, DF11 and KM11 instead of an SPC.
The bitsavers document above has the backplane on page 19.


>
>     > From: Bill Degnan
>
>     > The more useful box is the S model because the more standard
> enclosure
>     > can be used for testing other UNIBUS cards more easily or than parity
>     > RAM.
>
> ?? How is is better? The BA11-D box will hold hex cards? Or are the SPC
> slots
> in the 11/05-10S backplane MUD slots? Or is it just that the BA11-K will
> hold
> DD11-C/D backplanes, with MUD slots? (I don't know if there are any MUD
> backplanes that go into the BA11-D - at least without a hand-mod to the
> power
> connector.)
>
>         Noel
>

/Mattis

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 26 14:15:08 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 15:15:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
Message-ID: <20160226201508.0234C18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I have some MM11-U UNIBUS core memory cards, and in trying to locate a
backplane to plug them into, I remembered a story I'd read on Guy's Web-site
about some issues he'd had with parity and non-parity operation:

  http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-10/index.html

and mention of the backplanes as being specific to parity and non-parity
operation. So, I figured I'd better make sure what kind of MM11-U's I had,
and get the correct backplane (MF11-U or MF11-UP). So I looked at the prints
sets, and... the part number for the parity and non-parity backplanes is the
same. WTF?

Extensive further digging finally turned up this, in the "MF11-U/UP core
memory system maintainence manual" (DEC-11-HMFMA-B-D, 3rd Printing, November
1974):

    5.2.3 "Installation Procedure"

    "A backplane jumper is required from B1U1 to B2U1 for non-parity memory.
    This jumper should not be present for parity memory."

Which makes sense. Apparently, for parity operation, SSYN is routed through
the M7259 Parity Controller, and it only issues the SSYN once it has checked
that the parity is OK. So, on non-parity installations, the 'proto-SSYN' from
the rest of the memory is just hard-wired straight to the output to the
UNIBUS (hence the jumper).


Also, since the MM11-L system uses the same parity controller board (M7259),
it seems a reasonable conclusion that there should be a similar jumper on the
MF11-L backplane, and I have found such a jumper on some MF11-L backplanes,
but I have yet to find anything in any DEC documentation about it.

Speaking of MM11-L/ME11-L/MF11-L backplanes, there appear to be at least four
different etch revisions (and I suspect the earliest one cannot be tweaked to
run parity, since it _doesn't_ have that jumper on it). But that's for another
day!

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Feb 26 14:49:42 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 15:49:42 -0500
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
In-Reply-To: <20160226201508.0234C18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160226201508.0234C18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucqKB2VFrk_PcO0gOkWZ0WfuOGrSvQwhRP8yEG8Q5x7iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> So I have some MM11-U UNIBUS core memory cards, and in trying to locate a
> backplane to plug them into, I remembered a story I'd read on Guy's
> Web-site
> about some issues he'd had with parity and non-parity operation:
>
>   http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-10/index.html
>
> and mention of the backplanes as being specific to parity and non-parity
> operation. So, I figured I'd better make sure what kind of MM11-U's I had,
> and get the correct backplane (MF11-U or MF11-UP). So I looked at the
> prints
> sets, and... the part number for the parity and non-parity backplanes is
> the
> same. WTF?
>
> Extensive further digging finally turned up this, in the "MF11-U/UP core
> memory system maintainence manual" (DEC-11-HMFMA-B-D, 3rd Printing,
> November
> 1974):
>
>     5.2.3 "Installation Procedure"
>
>     "A backplane jumper is required from B1U1 to B2U1 for non-parity
> memory.
>     This jumper should not be present for parity memory."
>
> Which makes sense. Apparently, for parity operation, SSYN is routed through
> the M7259 Parity Controller, and it only issues the SSYN once it has
> checked
> that the parity is OK. So, on non-parity installations, the 'proto-SSYN'
> from
> the rest of the memory is just hard-wired straight to the output to the
> UNIBUS (hence the jumper).
>
>
> Also, since the MM11-L system uses the same parity controller board
> (M7259),
> it seems a reasonable conclusion that there should be a similar jumper on
> the
> MF11-L backplane, and I have found such a jumper on some MF11-L backplanes,
> but I have yet to find anything in any DEC documentation about it.
>
> Speaking of MM11-L/ME11-L/MF11-L backplanes, there appear to be at least
> four
> different etch revisions (and I suspect the earliest one cannot be tweaked
> to
> run parity, since it _doesn't_ have that jumper on it). But that's for
> another
> day!
>
>         Noel
>


Very useful, thanks.  I will try this.
Bill
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From other at oryx.us  Fri Feb 26 17:13:03 2016
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 17:13:03 -0600
Subject: shim - WAS:::Re: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>
 <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56D0DBFF.6010808@oryx.us>

Hello Mouse,

Was just looking over your shim application briefly.

Just curious, as I see the README.linux note, what OS was your shim application 
built for and ran on?

Thank you,

Jerry


On 02/25/16 05:41 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> [...ao.com...]
>
>> At the point where we finally sold the domain to be rid of this issue
>> (and make a few $) we were processing in excess of *300000* messages
>> a day.  This is for a 7 person company.  It was more than 50% of the
>> email processed by our ISP.  Our DSL router throttled the SMTP
>> requests so we could SOME work done during the day.
>
> Hm?  You're implying your ISP was handling your mail, but then you
> imply you were handling your own mail.  I'm a little confused.
>
> The main reason I'm writing, though, is a bit different.
>
> That there's a company I know that was in a somewhat similar position -
> they were getting so much spam bounce blowback that they were shutting
> off all incoming SMTP during the day to keep the machine up.  I wrote a
> very lightweight SMTP server for them; it accepts connections and talks
> SMTP until it gets a valid recipient, and then - and only then -
> connects through to the real SMTP server and passes protocol both ways.
> It was very good at turning away mail to unknown addresses.  There was
> one time when some host in south-east Asia opened about 100 parallel
> connections and started a dumb-as-rocks dictionary attack.  It turned
> away many tens of thousands of unknown recipients in something like
> thirty seconds, and, even knowing exactly when it happened, I couldn't
> find the blip on our load graphs - it was drowned out by the noise.  If
> I hadn't been reading the logs for other reasons and stumbled across it
> I never would have known it happened at all.
>
> Obviously, it's of no direct use to you now that you don't hold ao.com
> any longer.  But in case you - or anyone else - is interested, I got
> their approval to open the code up; it's available to anyone who cares
> to fetch a copy.  ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/pub/mouse/misc/mail/shim/
> is the place to look for those interested.
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

From dave at 661.org  Fri Feb 26 18:04:46 2016
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 16:04:46 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAALmimkOeNvfpZ0mrHFs6MkCvtnw3-Kh=FY0c51u3m3UPB3M5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECB817E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <6054A0B8-2B47-4125-A164-6766F8EF38E8@661.org>

On February 23, 2016 10:41:08 AM PST, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
>From: Ethan Dicks
>Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:23 AM
>
>> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine)
>
>Ethan,
>
>You should know better.  Zork originated on a PDP-10 running ITS.  I
>first
>encountered it on a TOPS-20 system, since the folks at the Dynamic
>Modeling
>Lab ported their variant of Lisp to TENEX and TOPS-20.
>
>It's publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the
>office hours check from the startup program years and years and year
>ago.
One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can port Frotz to it.
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Fri Feb 26 21:31:05 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 22:31:05 -0500
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to>

 >Mattis Lind wrote:

>>2016-02-26 4:01 GMT+01:00 Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>:
>
>>A few more (I have source):
>>
>>Hockey
>>Fleet (sort of battleship game)
>>Football
>>Lunar Lander (of course!)
>>Blackjack
>>Lots and lots of printer art
>>
>>--Chuck
>>
>When at Retrogathering in V?ster?s (Sweden) a month a ago we demonstrated
>ASCII Mandelbrot (BASIC) on a VT100 generated by a PDP-11/03 . Takes quite
>a while for it to do it.
>
>http://i.imgur.com/v6FI5Cd.jpg
>
>There is also a poker game that's work well under RT-11 BASIC and
>CAPS-11/BASIC.
>
>/Mattis
>
Do you have the source code for the Mandelbrot demonstration and can you 
make it available?

Jerome Fine

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Feb 26 22:23:49 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 23:23:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: shim - WAS:::Re: Xenosoft in New Haven CT?
In-Reply-To: <56D0DBFF.6010808@oryx.us>
References: <56CF2D5B.6020708@sbcglobal.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602250845290.20070@shell.lmi.net>
 <56CF6FC9.3080800@aerodesic.com>
 <201602252341.SAA20200@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56D0DBFF.6010808@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <201602270423.XAA27204@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Was just looking over your shim application briefly.

> Just curious, as I see the README.linux note, what OS was your shim
> application built for and ran on?

NetBSD.  I forget which version - given the timeframe and fuzzy memory,
I'd guess 4.something.  But I think it should work on most NetBSD
versions; I run 1.4T, 4.0.1, and 5.2, and have developed coding habits
to make my code run on all of them.  (While I have a nontrivial number
of tweaks to each, I don't think the shim uses any of that; it had to
run on stock (or very nearly so - eg, maybe custom kernel) NetBSD.)

If you have issues getting it to build, let me know; I have some
experience persuading my software to build under various "foreign"
environments.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb 27 00:16:23 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 22:16:23 -0800
Subject: VAX-11/730 success!
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbPTwrdvSZa0cGuhLaH34Ma9PwUZVEBJkZYRNOb1EHRHXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPhLQbPTwrdvSZa0cGuhLaH34Ma9PwUZVEBJkZYRNOb1EHRHXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE1314DB-1123-4FB1-BE72-BE00B1B773EE@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 26, 2016, at 01:45, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks to those who helped and advised; I discovered a problematic pin
> on the TU58 10-pin DIP connector. With this fixed, TU58EM worked
> correctly and the console code loaded. The CPU passes diags as far as
> the RL02 test; not surprising as there's no RL controller or drive -
> or the special diag pack! - installed.

Congratulations!



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 01:19:54 2016
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 08:19:54 +0100
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLNzonjX+3i_DKdBxLs+xfF+JnpnDuRAhSbjcn8GGfiiA@mail.gmail.com>

>>> When at Retrogathering in V?ster?s (Sweden) a month a ago we demonstrated
>> ASCII Mandelbrot (BASIC) on a VT100 generated by a PDP-11/03 . Takes quite
>> a while for it to do it.
>>
>> http://i.imgur.com/v6FI5Cd.jpg
>>
>> There is also a poker game that's work well under RT-11 BASIC and
>> CAPS-11/BASIC.
>>
>> /Mattis
>>
>> Do you have the source code for the Mandelbrot demonstration and can you
> make it available?
>
>
The code I used at Retrogathering I found here:
http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set#OS.2F8_BASIC

/Mattis

Jerome Fine
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Feb 27 01:55:12 2016
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 23:55:12 -0800
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <296C4FE4-8889-41A8-B364-868AF764B346@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 25, 2016, at 12:28, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> For every Data General Nova (800, 1200, 1220, 2) & Eclipse (S/130, S/200)
> that I have, those keys are all stamped XX2065. The coding appears to be
> 1353757 (7-1, center offset)

The key on my Nova 3 is also stamped XX2065.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 27 09:44:56 2016
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 16:44:56 +0100
Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.)
In-Reply-To: <296C4FE4-8889-41A8-B364-868AF764B346@nf6x.net>
References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <296C4FE4-8889-41A8-B364-868AF764B346@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS2359858F983CF1B75532D86B80@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 8:55 AM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) 

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 12:28, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> For every Data General Nova (800, 1200, 1220, 2) & Eclipse (S/130, S/200)
> that I have, those keys are all stamped XX2065. The coding appears to be
> 1353757 (7-1, center offset)

The key on my Nova 3 is also stamped XX2065.

---------
Been to my "Home of Famous Iron".
The key on my NOVA3 (originally bought in NL) is also XX2065.

- Henk

From macro at linux-mips.org  Sat Feb 27 18:47:56 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 00:47:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602272227440.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote:

> > X.org has gone modular at some point and that does help -- compared
> > to monolithic X servers as they used to be -- with computers which
> > are not the richest in resources, [...]
> 
> I don't quite see how; I'd rather have a non-modular server for my
> hardware than a modular server plus modules for my hardware.  I really
> dislike the current trend to dynamically loading everything in sight;

 Agreed in principle, however IIUC X.org only loads what is explicitly 
called for in xorg.conf rather than everything in sight.  So this should 
be relatively sound.

 Also traditional SVR4 MIPS ELF binaries do not benefit from static 
linking performance-wise.  The MIPS psABI has been defined such, that 
code produced for executables is PIC and no different from code for shared 
libraries.  All function calls and static data references are indirect, 
even these which end up local to the executable.

 There has been non-PIC ELF support defined and implemented for the MIPS 
target a few years ago, making executables use PLT and copy relocations 
for function calls and static data references respectively in 32-bit 
binaries.  I don't think I'm going to switch though, for one to make sure 
old SVR4 support doesn't bit rot in the tools; besides, 64-bit (n64) 
binaries continue using the original SVR4 ABI.

> it is a security disaster waiting to happen and it is bloat.  And the
> current trend to expect the X server to run as root, even on hardware
> without the peecee video disaster to excuse it, is just insane.  (For
> example, on SPARCs I found the server trying to do its own sbus
> enumeration, something it has no business going anywhere near,
> presumably because someone thought it was a sane way to "port" code
> that did PCI enumeration.)  On hardware where it works, I still use
> X11R6.4p3.

 Running as root is unfortunate, however I think the framebuffer server 
used with DEC hardware doesn't require it; not at least it should.  It 
uses /dev/fb* devices to access the hardware, so it's up to these devices' 
permissions to set the access policy.  It doesn't have to be the root user 
to access the device.  If I find there's something wrong with this, then 
I'll see if it can be fixed up on either the kernel or the X server side; 
naturally for patches to go anywhere running the most recent development 
version is a must.

 FWIW what I believe is the cause of X servers requiring `root' access are 
the inadequate software interfaces (or the lack of them really) for x86 
hardware -- where poking at the port I/O space directly from the userland 
or using system calls such as mmap(2) on /dev/mem (which naturally cannot 
be made accesible to non-root users or everyone could peek at other 
processes' memory) is consequently required to get at graphics hardware.  
Or, worse yet, calling into graphics adapter firmware -- which has been 
the trend over the years, used as an excuse for not documenting hardware.  
Now that is a security disaster, isn't it?

> But, well, if you find it helps you, whatever works.  I hold my nose
> and use X.org servers on a few peecees that X11R6.4p3 doesn't support.
> (I do insist on fixing the cursor extension bug, though; it's annoying.
> Not that older X servers are perfect either; I found a crasher bug in
> wide line drawing the hard way....)

 Well, I've been sort of stuck with XFree86 3.3.6/X11R6.3 with dozens of 
local patches applied for years with my DEC hardware.  And it has crashed 
recently anyway when I tried it with the PMAG-A aka MX mono framebuffer.  
So I need to move on, though maybe for the time being I'll just take the 
path of least resistance and make yet another patch to make it work here.

> >> But, yes, consider it a warning to look into it before just assuming
> >> that the support will (a) be there and (b) be non-bitrotted.  [...]
> > Honestly I'd expect dumb frame buffer support to just work, as there
> > isn't much there to break or maintain.
> 
> You'd think so, but in a day when "everything" has a (by our standards)
> high-end 3D rendering engine in front of it, it would not surprise me
> if dumb memory-mapped framebuffer access had bitrotted.  Indeed, one of
> the things I fuzzily recall is that X.org requires the device-dependent
> layers to support some kind of acceleration framework (the alphabet
> soup that comes to mind is "XAA", but I could be misremembering).

 I think these days Linux is booted more often in the frame buffer rather 
than the text console mode, so I'd expect people at least sometimes to run 
a dumb frame-buffer X server, in particular with graphics hardware for 
which native support hasn't been implemented yet.  Since the turn of the 
century it has been always been the case for me that new graphics hardware 
found in x86 systems was not supported with X natively.  There weren't 
that many pieces actually I dealt with, maybe three -- as I avoid hardware 
upgrades like a plague -- but still I think this tells something (and is 
actually one of the reasons why I avoid).

> > A pixel array and a RAMDAC handled entirely by the kernel via generic
> > calls isn't rocket science after all.
> 
> No, it isn't.  But apparently modern X has advanced enough that it can
> no longer do some things X Consortium sample servers from three decades
> ago could.  It's a bit like monitors: apparently flatscreen technology
> has improved to the point where monitors can no longer do what CRTs
> from multiple decades ago did routinely.

 Hmm, the only feature of CRTs I'm missing is the greater flexibility in 
resolution selection.  And then even that only a little bit, as it was 
only monochrome monitors that could truly adapt in an analogue way and 
display any resolution requested with no loss of quality.  Colour ones had 
the screen mask which made some resolutions look better than other ones, 
which was no different to LCD's pixel approximation -- about the only 
issue I have with flat panels.

 And then there was the moir? effect, colour alignment problems, various 
geometry defects, all of which could in theory be corrected with 
higher-end devices, but the process was painful, time consuming and had to 
be repeated for every resolution selected separately, sometimes hitting 
the limit of stored individual resolution settings supported by a device.

 To say nothing about their weight, space and energy consumption and heat 
produced.  And phosphor burnout.  And vertical refresh rates causing 
flicker.  And hard X-rays at the back.  No, on the second thoughts I'm not 
missing them at all.

 I've been running my favourite 80x37 text mode (720x592 pixels) on 4:3 
flat panels happily for years now and I had no issues with graphics modes 
either.  As long as analogue signalling was used, that is (DVI-D is 
another story) -- well, with an unfortunate exception of one panel, whose 
text-mode pixel approximation was plain horrible, but I take it it was 
that model which was broken, not the technology -- the same text mode 
rendered by a graphics card to the 1600x1200 resolution (native to said
display) and sent digitally to the same monitor produced excellent output.

 I've been more disappointed with the demise of IPS panels -- they were 
(and still are) so much more decent compared to everything else I dealt 
with.  And the disappearence of 4:3 screens -- the wide thingies are only 
really good for watching movies and not doing work.

 So what was there routinely in CRTs that you're missing in LCDs?

> > So if they broke some generic parts (DIX) by the lack of due
> > attention, then I'm really concerned.
> 
> I don't think they did, but AIUI their DIX code expects the DDX code to
> support a bunch of cr...er, stuff, that has no relevance if you don't
> have a 3D rendering engine in your hardware, which may well mean that
> the dumb-framebuffer DDX implementations have been thrown away because
> they no longer work with the modern DIX code and nobody stepped up to
> continue twisting them into nastier and nastier pretzels to accommodate
> more and more DIX-layer peecee-world assumptions....

 OK, so there might be replacement software algorithms missing from DDX 
for what is done by some hardware.  Oh well, if things are broken beyond 
the ability to fix within reasonable time and with reasonable effort, 
then, well, as you say -- there's always old code available out there.

 I have two ISA graphics cards still used, one each in a pair of x86 
systems too BTW.  I even upgraded one of them a few years ago, by plugging 
more DRAM into DIP sockets, to let it use memory interleaving and run at a 
higher refresh rate. ;)

> Fortunately, old X still works as well as it ever did.

 Well, if it indeed does in the first place. ;)

 Thanks for your insights!

  Maciej

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 19:49:27 2016
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 17:49:27 -0800
Subject: Omnibook 425/430 drivers?
Message-ID: <56D25227.9050905@gmail.com>

Hi all --

Got myself a small toy, an Omnibook 430 (486sx-25, non-backlit VGA 
display, runs off 4x AA batteries.  fun.)  It came only with the 
"System" Card (as opposed to the "System/Applications" Card), which has 
just enough to boot DOS and provide a few utilities, but nothing more.  
I'm working on getting Windows 3.1 running and I'd like to find an 
appropriate driver for the mouse, socket services, etc.

I've pulled the drivers and utilities off of the System/Application card 
from my Omnibook 300, and it's sort of working, but there are issues 
(the mouse stops working after the system goes to sleep, for example).

I haven't been able to find a source for these (and HP's site has 
nothing, of course...)  Anyone have any leads?

Thanks,
Josh




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Feb 27 20:24:12 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 21:24:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602272227440.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHhz2fS+amDy=V3EV=hwnnkvv+tW01G4eaPk_kWfQLJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602272227440.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <201602280224.VAA04294@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Running as root is unfortunate, however I think the framebuffer
> server used with DEC hardware doesn't require it; not at least it
> should.

Probably not.  Not required on the SPARC, either; X11R6.4p3 servers run
just fine as a non-root user.  But I've seen a "modern" SPARC server
that needed to run as root because it was trying to enumerate the SBus
itself, rather than leaving that to the kernel the way it should.  (It
might have been possible to make it work as non-root by granting the
user access to the underlying SBus, but that's almost as bad as letting
a non-root user access /dev/mem.)

> Or, worse yet, calling into graphics adapter firmware -- which has
> been the trend over the years, used as an excuse for not documenting
> hardware.  Now that is a security disaster, isn't it?

Indeed.  One of many.

> I think these days Linux is booted more often in the frame buffer
> rather than the text console mode,

That's my experience.  Indeed, its "text" modes usually are running a
terminal emulator and text renderer on the framebuffer in the kernel
rather than using the hardware's text mode.

>> It's a bit like monitors: apparently flatscreen technology has
>> improved to the point where monitors can no longer do what CRTs from
>> multiple decades ago did routinely.
> Hmm, the only feature of CRTs I'm missing is the greater flexibility
> in resolution selection.  [...]  So what was there routinely in CRTs
> that you're missing in LCDs?

Flexibility.  Reasonable approximations to unexpected things.

For example, I had a big CRT monitor that aws 4:3.  I once fed it a
1920x1080 signal.  It squashed it horizontally and lost pixels because
the shadow mask's resolution was coarser than the pixels, but it was
usable enough for text work that I could set the resolution back.  I've
yet to find a flatscreen that does anything but display some kind of
"input out of range" and nothing more in such a situation.

I've recently been looking for a flatscreen that will sync to the
1920x1080 from a cg14.  I have one at home (an Asus) that works ifne,
but at work I've been having trouble.  Behaviour has ranged from an
inability to make it display anything but its "out of range" box to the
flatscreen mis-identifying the input (as, eg, 800x600) to getting the
resolution right but putting the upper left corner of the image several
hundred pixels to the right and a hundred or so pixels down from the
upper left corner of the display.  (Just recently I finally found one
at the office that worked.  One of the older ones - apparently the
older flatscreens still were built with some degree of competence.)

I've even had trouble finding flatscreens that were willing to
letterbox rather than scaling (badly) when the input signal is smaller
than its native resolution.  (Ideally, it would be possible to scale to
the native size, scale by the largest _integer_ factor possible, or not
scale at all.  But, of my flatscreens, AFAICT only one is capable of
anything but the first of those, usually with ugly artifacts from
non-integer scaling factors.)

And then there's the adjustment time.  CRTs typically adjust to a
resolution change in a matter of a few vertical blanking intervals.
Flatscreens generally take multiple seconds, sometimes even a second or
so before they display _anything_.

I don't miss the weight, the power consumption, or the X-ray levels,
admitted.  But I can't help feeling that this much functionality loss
is an awfully high price to pay for those benefits.

And then there's HDMI.  I don't know whether HDMI would have happened
without the move to flatscreens, but it certainly is a correlate.

>> Fortunately, old X still works as well as it ever did.
> Well, if it indeed does in the first place. ;)

Well, yes, as badly as it ever did, too. :-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 27 20:37:44 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 18:37:44 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>

Okay, so "dumb terminal games" do require a terminal of some sort.  Back 
in the day of punched cards, however, terminals were expensive and not 
frequently encountered, but for the operator's console.

Given that, how many games can one think of that were played with card 
input and printer output?

I can think of lots of character art, but not one single game.

--Chuck


From dave at 661.org  Sat Feb 27 22:11:52 2016
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 04:11:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to> <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Okay, so "dumb terminal games" do require a terminal of some sort.  Back in 
> the day of punched cards, however, terminals were expensive and not 
> frequently encountered, but for the operator's console.
>
> Given that, how many games can one think of that were played with card input 
> and printer output?
>
> I can think of lots of character art, but not one single game.

I'm pretty sure someone has done chess that way.

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Sat Feb 27 22:21:23 2016
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 20:21:23 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to> <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <CANV78LSfFbd9qUMz-JN0Q7WShegbuDz1GJeKz3_ayozR6REE3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 8:11 PM, David Griffith <dave at 661.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
> Okay, so "dumb terminal games" do require a terminal of some sort.  Back
>> in the day of punched cards, however, terminals were expensive and not
>> frequently encountered, but for the operator's console.
>>
>> Given that, how many games can one think of that were played with card
>> input and printer output?
>>
>> I can think of lots of character art, but not one single game.
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure someone has done chess that way.
>
>
I remember seeing someone in the mid '70s working on a Monopoly game using
punch cards and printout on a CDC 6000 class machine.

-- Charles

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 27 22:23:28 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 20:23:28 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to> <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <56D27640.3050104@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2016 08:11 PM, David Griffith wrote:

>> I can think of lots of character art, but not one single game.
>
> I'm pretty sure someone has done chess that way.

Dunno, my first encounter with Chess was Chess 3.0--it interacted using 
the operator's console.  But I suppose a game state could have been 
filed away and resurrected for the next move.  It's been too long.

I do recall a maze generator that could create mazes of any size.

--Chuck


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sun Feb 28 01:15:53 2016
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 23:15:53 -0800
Subject: Another MEM11 Status update
Message-ID: <56D29EA9.8090009@shiresoft.com>

I've been simulating parts of the MEM11 FPGA since the last time I sent 
out an update.
Most of my time has been writing various testcases and getting them to 
work on Xilinx's
iSIM simulator.

I'm making pretty good progress and have tested a fair number of the 
modules in the
MEM11 FPGA design.  I have found some bugs in my code but most of the 
problems have
actually been in my test cases.

So far I've tested (and they "work"):

  * Various "register" modules that I've written
  * Reset sequencer
  * Status jumpers and status LEDs
  * LED panel interface for the RF11 LEDs
  * FRAM interface
  * absolute and periodic timers
  * Hardware multiplier
  * DMA FIFO

These all form the high level blocks that the J1 micro will interface 
to.  My test code is
actually using the registers and register addresses (MMIOs) that the J1 
would use.

The next blocks to test are the UART interface and all of the various 
aspects of the
UNIBUS interface (which I've partitioned into about 6 distinct modules 
each of which
will be tested separately).

I'm still undecided with the UART as to how far to go in creating a 
behavioral model
for the UART part itself (vs just making something that has the 
appropriate number
of registers and can "wiggle" the interrupt line).  I did create a 
behavioral model for
the FRAMs but that was relatively easy (just some big arrays).

Once I have the UNIBUS tested out, I'll figure out how to get the J1 to 
execute some
test code and I'll re-run all of the tests on the full FPGA design with 
tests on the J1.

I'm pretty excited as I'm not finding a lot of issues with the design.  
However, the
UNIBUS modules may have more issues due to the relative complexity of 
what's going
on there.  Plus the test cases will be much more involved (ie I have to 
write tests to
not only initialize the various aspects of the UNIBUS module but also 
generate correct
UNIBUS transactions with correct timing).  However, I'm getting better 
at writing
the testcases and what I usually run into now are typo's.

TTFN - Guy


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Feb 28 01:37:35 2016
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 23:37:35 -0800
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <56D27640.3050104@sydex.com>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D11879.2060305@compsys.to> <56D25D78.3040103@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602280410280.2203@nyx.feedle.net>
 <56D27640.3050104@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <91A3219F-979B-420F-B19C-9C722936AE18@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2016-Feb-27, at 8:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 02/27/2016 08:11 PM, David Griffith wrote:
> 
>>> I can think of lots of character art, but not one single game.
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure someone has done chess that way.
> 
> Dunno, my first encounter with Chess was Chess 3.0--it interacted using the operator's console.  But I suppose a game state could have been filed away and resurrected for the next move.  It's been too long.

 Bernstein's chess (1957) for the IBM 704 used front-panel switch input with printer output.
	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT_Un3xo1qE


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Feb 28 07:02:18 2016
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 08:02:18 -0500
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <201602280224.VAA04294@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602272227440.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602280224.VAA04294@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <56D2EFDA.1020406@compsys.to>

 >On Saturday, February 27th, 2016 at 21:24:12 -0500, Mouse wrote:

>[Snip]
>
>And then there's the adjustment time.  CRTs typically adjust to a
>resolution change in a matter of a few vertical blanking intervals.
>Flatscreens generally take multiple seconds, sometimes even a second or
>so before they display _anything_.
>
>I don't miss the weight, the power consumption, or the X-ray levels,
>admitted.  But I can't help feeling that this much functionality loss
>is an awfully high price to pay for those benefits.
>
When I switched to a flat screen (after the CRT monitor died), the
adjustment time was also the biggest disappointment.  As you mention,
it usually takes 1, often even 2,  seconds to recover after the blanking
interval.

What I can't understand is what causes the blanking interval.  It can't
be the software which is controlling the display.  I describe below
what happens.

I almost always run in FULL  SCREEN mode with either 80 column
lines or 132 columns lines.  When I shift from one job to the next, it
does seem like the software produces a blanking interval as the old
screen is discarded and the selected screen is displayed.  BUT,  NOT
ALWAYS!!!!  It actually seems almost random.  Before I switched to
a flatscreen, I was always able to visually inspect the screen output of
the two jobs and actually determine where there was a change from
the screen output between the two jobs.  It often took up to a dozen
times before I was able to pinpoint the few specific characters which
had changed, but the adjustment time was so short that my eyes were
easily able to retain the old image and watch for any changes.

What is very frustrating is that about 10% of the time, the adjustment
time is very close to just a few milliseconds and it is still possible to
note the few (if any) differences between the screen output for the
two jobs.  But because it happens so rarely, I no longer find it to
be useful to visually compare the two screen outputs.  What I can't
figure out is why the adjustment time is so long most of the time - often
up to 1 or even 2 seconds.  But on rare occasions (10% of the time
or less), the new screen output for the new job displays with an
adjustment time in the range of a few milliseconds.

Of course, that is when both screens are using the same number of
columns.  If the number of columns differ, then the adjustment time
is always 1 or 2 seconds, as is the adjustment time within any given
job when I switch the number of columns.  This is especially noticeable
in KED since the HELP screens always use an 80 column display.
I almost always use a 132 column display for the regular screen
output since MACRO-11 listings require that output for efficient
viewing.  Whenever I request HELP screen output, I must always
wait that extra 1 or 2 seconds before the display output appears
after the adjustment time.  Since it is not a major part of any editing
session, it is reasonable to accept the delay.  But it is disappointing.

Note that these delays only occur when I use displays with FULL
SCREEN mode.  If I am using regular screens under Windows,
as I do when I send and receive e-mail, then there is never any
adjustment delay.  But the adjustment delays also occur when I
switch between FULL  SCREEN mode and how Windows usually
displays screen output - and back again, of course.  It is rare that
I need to switch from Ersatz-11 to other activity under Windows,
but there are a few occasions when that is required.

One of the VERY difficult problems which I have never been able
to find a solution for is if I make a mistake and attempt to switch
from Ersatz-11 when a screen is in FULL  SCREEN mode at
132 column output TO standard Windows output displays.  In
that case under Windows 98SE, the operating system freezes
and the ONLY solution is to turn off the power bar since even
the power-off button no longer works.  This also happens by
accident about one a month when I accidentally hit the WINDOWS
key (between the CTRL and ALT keys) while I am using a screen
with 132 columns.  Over the years, I have become mush more
careful and rarely touch the WINDOWS key by accident any
more.  And even if I could disable the WINDOWS key, on the
few occasions I need to use it, that would be even more of an
inconvenience.  So disabling the WINDOWS key is not an
option.

Jerome Fine

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Feb 28 07:52:52 2016
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 08:52:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine
In-Reply-To: <56D2EFDA.1020406@compsys.to>
References: <CAM-w4HPjn3X7D4ODU6wZxqU5qwTv1Fgh-_UNX6qkRp0FBecrsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFAwDgG2qeEqZZPNnCujRe1OZOaVrUTUKjORyWRbh1oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCkZSZKfAb6OTitx_5hcscg-c2RHVBWx4z3fJkQEC_E6Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160221162403.GA37453@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA1A39.8060005@compsys.to>
 <20160221202605.GA48783@beast.freibergnet.de> <56CA4A53.8060804@compsys.to>
 <000201d16d0f$5aa1b860$0fe52920$@classiccmp.org>
 <56CA93E8.3000307@pico-systems.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.00.1602212235530.576@discord.bogons>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221444140.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602221707.MAA25435@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602221910020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602222021.PAA23798@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602230042020.7431@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602260250.VAA00667@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602272227440.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>
 <201602280224.VAA04294@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <56D2EFDA.1020406@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <201602281352.IAA23330@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> When I switched to a flat screen (after the CRT monitor died), the
> adjustment time was also the biggest disappointment.  As you mention,
> it usually takes 1, often even 2, seconds to recover after the
> blanking interval.

(Cognitive dissonance - "blanking interval" is a technical term in
video, meaning something inconsistent with your usage here.)

> What I can't understand is what causes the blanking interval.

Based on your description, I think this is happening whenever the
display is resyncing to the signal.  Unlike analog monitors,
flatscreens seem to do this largely in software (many of them even put
up some kind of user notification while doing it).  I think it happens
whenever the sync signal does something unexpected for the current
mode.  This can be a resolution change (since that entails a change of
at least one sync frequency[%]) or it can be a too-large phase glitch.
I suspect your 10% of the time when it doesn't resync corresponds to
switchings that don't change sync frequencies and happen to occur such
that the sync phase glitch is small enough to not trigger the
auto-readjustment.  My guess is that the host is re-initting the
display hardware, probably resetting sync to a top-of-screen.  If this
happens to occur close enough to the former top-of-screen, the sync
signal may appear close enough to uninterrupted for the monitor to
continue running without readjustment.

I may not be describing it well - but I don't see anything in your
description which is inconsistent with the theory in my head.

[%] In theory, a resolution change may not entail a sync glitch if you
are changing just the horizontal resolution, and you're changing the
pixel clock as well such that the horizontal scan frequency is
unchanged.  I suspect such changes are rare enough to "never" happen.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From lists at loomcom.com  Sun Feb 28 10:20:30 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 10:20:30 -0600
Subject: 3B2 Diagnostics
Message-ID: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>

Hi all,

There's an image of a 3B2 Diagnostics disk floating around, but
I'd like to try to confirm what model of 3B2 it was built for.

I'm trying to run the "filledt" program from this diagnostics disk on
my 3B2/400 emulator, and seeing some REALLY weird behavior.  There are
several ways to transfer control in the WE32100 CPU. You can CALL a
procedure, which saves minimal state; you can GATE to a procedure,
which is what interrupts to, and save more state; or you can CALLPS,
which is a full process switch and saves the most state. My simulator
can't run the "filledt" program because it is trying to CALL a ROM
routine that expects to have been GATE-ed to.  The procedure looks
back in the stack for the last saved PSW, which isn't there.

Sorry for the technical wall of text, but long story short: I don't
know whether there is a bug in my simulator leading to this behavior
(likely), or whether the 3B2 Diagnostics disk was built for the model
500 or 1000, which have totally different ROMs with different
procedures at different vectors.

Does anyone have a 3B2 diagnostics disk that is 100% verified to
have come with a 3B2/300 or 3B2/400?

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
web at loomcom.com

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 28 11:37:05 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 12:37:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
Message-ID: <20160228173705.B55A718C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > Very useful, thanks.

Eh, de nada - glad to help contibute to the knowledge base.

    > I will try this.

With MM11-U gear, or MM11-L?

I ask because, like I said, I still don't have 100% clarity on the MM11-L
situation. I am pretty sure there are old MF11-L backplanes that can't be
upgraded to parity this way (i.e. removing the jumper), and may not be
upgradable to parity at all (i.e. it might take etch cuts that are
'impossible', if they are on the bottom side of the PCB).

There's that jumper that should be there on non-parity units, but does not
seem to be there on some older backplanes (so you can't remove it to make the
backplane parity-capable); arguing that it's probably hard-wired in the etch
on those older backplanes? And there seem to be a couple of pins that need to
be bussed acros, for the MM11-L units to 'talk' to the parity controller. And
if the parity jumper isn't there, logically those bussing etches might not be
there either.  So I have a little work ahead of me with an ohm-meter...

Speaking of the jumper, and bussed signals: the parity board input pin that
that jumper is connected to (when the parity board is not there) must be
bussed to all three group locations in the MF11-L backplane, as a wired-OR of
their proto-SSYN outputs. If it were daisy-chained among the three groups,
you've have to put the board sets in in a specific order, no? (Otherwise a gap
would lose the signal from the group(s) on the far side of the gap.)  And
there's nothing like that in the manual. Something else to check out on the
prints and/or with a meter..

Anyway, please report back on your experiences, so if there's any useful
info you pick up, we can learn from it.

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 13:34:14 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:34:14 -0500
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
In-Reply-To: <20160228173705.B55A718C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160228173705.B55A718C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucX2HR0sDWt_JU-V+MQq0ae4EgiCRYHyQB73UyLx4Mu+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Bill Degnan
>
>     > Very useful, thanks.
>
> Eh, de nada - glad to help contibute to the knowledge base.
>
>     > I will try this.
>
> With MM11-U gear, or MM11-L?
>
> I ask because, like I said, I still don't have 100% clarity on the MM11-L
> situation. I am pretty sure there are old MF11-L backplanes that can't be
> upgraded to parity this way (i.e. removing the jumper), and may not be
> upgradable to parity at all (i.e. it might take etch cuts that are
> 'impossible', if they are on the bottom side of the PCB).
>
> There's that jumper that should be there on non-parity units, but does not
> seem to be there on some older backplanes (so you can't remove it to make
> the
> backplane parity-capable); arguing that it's probably hard-wired in the
> etch
> on those older backplanes? And there seem to be a couple of pins that need
> to
> be bussed acros, for the MM11-L units to 'talk' to the parity controller.
> And
> if the parity jumper isn't there, logically those bussing etches might not
> be
> there either.  So I have a little work ahead of me with an ohm-meter...
>
> Speaking of the jumper, and bussed signals: the parity board input pin that
> that jumper is connected to (when the parity board is not there) must be
> bussed to all three group locations in the MF11-L backplane, as a wired-OR
> of
> their proto-SSYN outputs. If it were daisy-chained among the three groups,
> you've have to put the board sets in in a specific order, no? (Otherwise a
> gap
> would lose the signal from the group(s) on the far side of the gap.)  And
> there's nothing like that in the manual. Something else to check out on the
> prints and/or with a meter..
>
> Anyway, please report back on your experiences, so if there's any useful
> info you pick up, we can learn from it.
>
>         Noel
>


My thought is that with my PDP 11/05 with S chassis / BA11-K.  I am
thinking I could apply this knowledge to my situation, even if it's not the
exact match.  I have the same memory and controller cards H217C and H217D
(parity / non parity) to play with in the same chassis, if I can locate
what jumper to change.

b

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 14:12:07 2016
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:12:07 -0600
Subject: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX
 development machine)
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D2F25B2A.52371%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>
 <56CFC013.6040402@sydex.com>
 <CABr82SKTKsHqK1NNw05kdTknz=_ESkNe6aY3PNZxDc_gm1tOQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D35497.2000009@gmail.com>

On 02/26/2016 05:46 AM, Mattis Lind wrote:
> When at Retrogathering in V?ster?s (Sweden) a month a ago we demonstrated
> ASCII Mandelbrot (BASIC) on a VT100 generated by a PDP-11/03 . Takes quite
> a while for it to do it.
>
> http://i.imgur.com/v6FI5Cd.jpg

I like that. I just unearthed an ASCII Mandelbrot program I'd written as a 
Unix shell script the other day.





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 28 14:52:36 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 15:52:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
Message-ID: <20160228205236.6220A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > My thought is that with my PDP 11/05 with S chassis / BA11-K.

Urr, if you're talking about the backplane the CPU is in (which can hold one
MM11-U), I think you're out of luck: there's no slot for the M7259 parity
controller to plug into (at least, one the one in the -11/05S-10S manual).

	Noel

From alan at alanlee.org  Sun Feb 28 16:24:17 2016
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 17:24:17 -0500
Subject: 3B2 Diagnostics
In-Reply-To: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>
References: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <e7a109ccbff89b759413d7300d4cc914@alanlee.org>

 

Seth, 

'filledt' comes on every Essential Utilities Disk 1 along with the unix
kernel and OS install routines. Get a SVR3 3.0 Essential Utilities Disk
1 and run filledt from there. I just went through this last week. 

You can grab the image from here: 

http://www.3b2archive.org/archive/disks/3.0/essential_utils_r3.0/disk1 

-Alan 

On 2016-02-28 11:20, Seth Morabito wrote: 

> Hi all,
> 
> There's an image of a 3B2 Diagnostics disk floating around, but
> I'd like to try to confirm what model of 3B2 it was built for.
> 
> I'm trying to run the "filledt" program from this diagnostics disk on
> my 3B2/400 emulator, and seeing some REALLY weird behavior. There are
> several ways to transfer control in the WE32100 CPU. You can CALL a
> procedure, which saves minimal state; you can GATE to a procedure,
> which is what interrupts to, and save more state; or you can CALLPS,
> which is a full process switch and saves the most state. My simulator
> can't run the "filledt" program because it is trying to CALL a ROM
> routine that expects to have been GATE-ed to. The procedure looks
> back in the stack for the last saved PSW, which isn't there.
> 
> Sorry for the technical wall of text, but long story short: I don't
> know whether there is a bug in my simulator leading to this behavior
> (likely), or whether the 3B2 Diagnostics disk was built for the model
> 500 or 1000, which have totally different ROMs with different
> procedures at different vectors.
> 
> Does anyone have a 3B2 diagnostics disk that is 100% verified to
> have come with a 3B2/300 or 3B2/400?
> 
> -Seth
 

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 17:32:13 2016
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:32:13 -0500
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
In-Reply-To: <20160228205236.6220A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20160228205236.6220A18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufEjQqaeW0UmRTPoFCqKw1iGBc_c1RM7HUFWOQf8+ZMag@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Bill Degnan
>
>     > My thought is that with my PDP 11/05 with S chassis / BA11-K.
>
> Urr, if you're talking about the backplane the CPU is in (which can hold
> one
> MM11-U), I think you're out of luck: there's no slot for the M7259 parity
> controller to plug into (at least, one the one in the -11/05S-10S manual).
>
>         Noel
>

I did not get that far, but oops yah....I believe that may be a show
stopper.  I will see what else I have available.

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 18:32:16 2016
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:32:16 -0600
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
Message-ID: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>


Does anyone know the origins of the term 'motherboard'?

I've always associated it with computers and assumed that it started 
appearing somewhere around 1980, with the fading out of passive backplane 
systems and arrival of machines which put more functionality onto a 'core' 
PCB into which other cards were plugged. I don't recall ever seeing it used 
when referencing earlier big iron, but maybe I've just missed it.

I had the case lid off a Fluke digital multimeter which hails from 1972 
earlier, and was surprised to see it written as part of a warning there 
("ensure that all cards are securely plugged into the motherboard before 
applying power", or similar - unfortunately I didn't grab a photo at the 
time).

cheers

Jules

From jason at textfiles.com  Sun Feb 28 18:40:44 2016
From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:40:44 -0500
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKnFLd1PJ_xL5mfQ8f=f8Oud=H_04Zq57WgYMa_0Rj_s=neu_w@mail.gmail.com>

Stack Exchange entry which suggests it goes back to the 1950's.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10386/why-motherboard-is-used-to-refer-to-main-board-of-computer

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know the origins of the term 'motherboard'?
>
> I've always associated it with computers and assumed that it started
> appearing somewhere around 1980, with the fading out of passive backplane
> systems and arrival of machines which put more functionality onto a 'core'
> PCB into which other cards were plugged. I don't recall ever seeing it used
> when referencing earlier big iron, but maybe I've just missed it.
>
> I had the case lid off a Fluke digital multimeter which hails from 1972
> earlier, and was surprised to see it written as part of a warning there
> ("ensure that all cards are securely plugged into the motherboard before
> applying power", or similar - unfortunately I didn't grab a photo at the
> time).
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 28 18:50:04 2016
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:50:04 -0600
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>

On 02/28/2016 06:32 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the origins of the term 'motherboard'?
>
> I've always associated it with computers and assumed that 
> it started appearing somewhere around 1980, with the 
> fading out of passive backplane systems and arrival of 
> machines which put more functionality onto a 'core' PCB 
> into which other cards were plugged. I don't recall ever 
> seeing it used when referencing earlier big iron, but 
> maybe I've just missed it.
>
Computers existed way before 1980, and had many boards 
plugged into wire-wrapped backplanes or motherboards.    I'm 
guessing the terminology was company-specific.  IBM had 
their own name for EVERYTHING, for instance.  They did NOT 
use the term motherboard, as far as I know.  The SMS systems 
like 709x, 1401, etc. had totally passive backplanes.  The 
SLT systems (System/360, 1130/1800, etc.) had passive 
backplanes, but the local interconnect was done mostly with 
etched traces on multilayer PC boards, which also 
distributed power to the cards.  They just called these 
backplane sections "boards" and the SLT circuit boards that 
plugged into them were "cards".  Not sure where I first saw 
the term motherboard, or if it really implied it had 
substantial active circuitry on it.

Jon

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 19:01:07 2016
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 20:01:07 -0500
Subject: Techno-savvy...
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF-YXr8XFD4q9d1uZrOBBfUgnS=e=NTM8zSGTermw-tT2A@mail.gmail.com>

What is a techno-savvy student? Can classic computers possibly give an
answer? I used early microcomputers in my electronics classroom I
taught in the 70?s. Computers back then were rather primitive, not
much better than calculators, but did mimic human learning ? well
maybe not advanced enough to deal with calculus! But they did help
with the tedious tasks of generating random #s to start a particular
process -  a game for instance. Maybe not intellectually challenging
nonetheless doing a required job leading today to sophisticated games
that do more than entertain. Back then students were put in groups to
build a work station employing a Commodore 64 or Apple II or Heathkit
H8. Fund-raising bought these computers at the school board was
reluctant to spend money and or political capital that only benefited
the few though we did install a workstation in the library ? what
wonder that created as it was small in comparison to the PDP-8.

So what is a techno-savvy student now: Conversant in using a
technological gadget to enhance his/her life? Or being able to build a
computing workstation in high school? Or for simply possessing a basic
understanding of how electronic/computing technology makes life more
bearable, less boring? I don?t have the answers though being 64 I?ve
lived through the evolution of computing technology and seeing how
it?s affected my life good or otherwise! Looking forward to using my
old computers, Coleco ADAM and Haethkit H8, if I can keep them going
by procuring parts, as my dear friend who has them works tirelessly
and I contribute when I get up to the big city in keeping them
functioning. Such are the joys of classic computing. :)

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 19:36:50 2016
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:36:50 -0600
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56D3A0B2.9040107@gmail.com>

On 02/28/2016 06:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Computers existed way before 1980, and had many boards plugged into
> wire-wrapped backplanes or motherboards.

Backplane was certainly a term from way back, I just don't recall seeing 
motherboard before somewhere around the 1980 timeframe. Maybe you're right 
though and it was in use too, but only by certain companies...




From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 28 19:47:15 2016
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:47:15 -0600
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <CAKnFLd1PJ_xL5mfQ8f=f8Oud=H_04Zq57WgYMa_0Rj_s=neu_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
 <CAKnFLd1PJ_xL5mfQ8f=f8Oud=H_04Zq57WgYMa_0Rj_s=neu_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D3A323.6020405@gmail.com>

On 02/28/2016 06:40 PM, Jason Scott wrote:
> Stack Exchange entry which suggests it goes back to the 1950's.
>
> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10386/why-motherboard-is-used-to-refer-to-main-board-of-computer

Thanks! It would be interesting to see the context there, and if there were 
any specific systems that they were referring to.

I'm wondering if mother-baby gave way to mother-daughter because 'baby' 
might imply a size, whereas mother-daughter is more about what is plugged 
into what.

cheers

Jules


From julian at twinax.org  Sun Feb 28 22:09:05 2016
From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 07:09:05 +0300
Subject: Fw: new important message
Message-ID: <0000bb4c9be0$66f0907e$f5da601a$@twinax.org>

Hello!

 

New message, please read <http://hydrodevices.kiev.ua/means.php?4w0>

 

julian at twinax.org


From julian at twinax.org  Sun Feb 28 22:09:05 2016
From: julian at twinax.org (julian at twinax.org)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 07:09:05 +0300
Subject: Fw: new important message
Message-ID: <0000bb4c9be0$66f0907e$f5da601a$@twinax.org>

Hello!

 

New message, please read <http://hydrodevices.kiev.ua/means.php?4w0>

 

julian at twinax.org


From bear at typewritten.org  Sun Feb 28 11:41:30 2016
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 09:41:30 -0800
Subject: 3B2 Diagnostics
In-Reply-To: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>
References: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <7FF7AFBD-D364-4A7D-856E-03B58E021238@typewritten.org>


On Feb 28, 2016, at 8:20 AM, Seth Morabito wrote:

> Does anyone have a 3B2 diagnostics disk that is 100% verified to
> have come with a 3B2/300 or 3B2/400?

"Come with", dunno. "Work with", definitely. Standby.

ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 01:43:31 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 01:43:31 -0600
Subject: Techno-savvy...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF-YXr8XFD4q9d1uZrOBBfUgnS=e=NTM8zSGTermw-tT2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-YXr8XFD4q9d1uZrOBBfUgnS=e=NTM8zSGTermw-tT2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7XHGre2FozeOq2nG4uRWv6zFxeYLJnE0S7pasCvosUZg@mail.gmail.com>

"Techno-savvy" is essentially a media / marketing term. For the most part,
it means whatever the speaker(s) wish it to mean, within the context in
which it is used.

The term isn't always complimentary; it can just as well be a pejorative.

For the most part, the populace-at-large seems to define the term as
meaning "conversant in both the established, as well as the nascent
technologies of the day".



On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Murray McCullough <
c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:

> What is a techno-savvy student? Can classic computers possibly give an
> answer? I used early microcomputers in my electronics classroom I
> taught in the 70?s. Computers back then were rather primitive, not
> much better than calculators, but did mimic human learning ? well
> maybe not advanced enough to deal with calculus! But they did help
> with the tedious tasks of generating random #s to start a particular
> process -  a game for instance. Maybe not intellectually challenging
> nonetheless doing a required job leading today to sophisticated games
> that do more than entertain. Back then students were put in groups to
> build a work station employing a Commodore 64 or Apple II or Heathkit
> H8. Fund-raising bought these computers at the school board was
> reluctant to spend money and or political capital that only benefited
> the few though we did install a workstation in the library ? what
> wonder that created as it was small in comparison to the PDP-8.
>
> So what is a techno-savvy student now: Conversant in using a
> technological gadget to enhance his/her life? Or being able to build a
> computing workstation in high school? Or for simply possessing a basic
> understanding of how electronic/computing technology makes life more
> bearable, less boring? I don?t have the answers though being 64 I?ve
> lived through the evolution of computing technology and seeing how
> it?s affected my life good or otherwise! Looking forward to using my
> old computers, Coleco ADAM and Haethkit H8, if I can keep them going
> by procuring parts, as my dear friend who has them works tirelessly
> and I contribute when I get up to the big city in keeping them
> functioning. Such are the joys of classic computing. :)
>

From dave at 661.org  Mon Feb 29 02:24:12 2016
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:24:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: CP/M version 2.1 found
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1602290820270.7410@nyx.feedle.net>


I found an 8-inch floppy disk labeled with "CP/M V2.0 9/4/79" which is 
crossed out and replaced below with "CP/M V2.1 7/13/80".  I don't see 
mention of version 2.1 at http://www.cpm.z80.de.  Do I have something 
unique?  Who can I trust to image this and put the contents on the net?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From supervinx at libero.it  Mon Feb 29 03:01:29 2016
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 10:01:29 +0100
Subject: R: CP/M version 2.1 found
Message-ID: <211fsebchqmnqscuc0rx72ty.1456736489844@email.android.com>

Where do you live?
I guess I'm too far to help, but I'd like to have that image and look into it...

-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: David Griffith <dave at 661.org> 
Data:29/02/2016  09:24  (GMT+01:00) 
A: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Oggetto: CP/M version 2.1 found 


I found an 8-inch floppy disk labeled with "CP/M V2.0 9/4/79" which is 
crossed out and replaced below with "CP/M V2.1 7/13/80".? I don't see 
mention of version 2.1 at http://www.cpm.z80.de.? Do I have something 
unique?? Who can I trust to image this and put the contents on the net?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 06:40:34 2016
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 06:40:34 -0600
Subject: Fw: new important message
In-Reply-To: <0000bb4c9be0$66f0907e$f5da601a$@twinax.org>
References: <0000bb4c9be0$66f0907e$f5da601a$@twinax.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23BJSez54wO5T821agxz8qPtxB448_5E8bK4q+rRd7QJg@mail.gmail.com>

spam

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:09 PM, <julian at twinax.org> wrote:

> Hello!
>
>
>
> New message, please read <http://hydrodevices.kiev.ua/means.php?4w0>
>
>
>
> julian at twinax.org
>
>

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 29 07:43:06 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:43:06 -0500
Subject: Techno-savvy...
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7XHGre2FozeOq2nG4uRWv6zFxeYLJnE0S7pasCvosUZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-YXr8XFD4q9d1uZrOBBfUgnS=e=NTM8zSGTermw-tT2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7XHGre2FozeOq2nG4uRWv6zFxeYLJnE0S7pasCvosUZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D44AEA.4000209@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-29 2:43 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
> "Techno-savvy" is essentially a media / marketing term. For the most part,
> it means whatever the speaker(s) wish it to mean, within the context in
> which it is used.
>

So I wasn't the only one who cringed.

> The term isn't always complimentary; it can just as well be a pejorative.
>
> For the most part, the populace-at-large seems to define the term as
> meaning "conversant in both the established, as well as the nascent
> technologies of the day".

Or "the family member you go to when you can't print".

--Toby

>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Murray McCullough <
> c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What is a techno-savvy student? ...

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 29 08:03:20 2016
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 09:03:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MM11-U/UP core memory backplanes
Message-ID: <20160229140320.0DE3418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan 

    > I will see what else I have available.

As far as I have been able to determine, the only backplane that supports the
MM11-UP is the MF11-U backplane. Does anyone know of anything else that does?

	Noel

From lists at loomcom.com  Mon Feb 29 09:31:45 2016
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 09:31:45 -0600
Subject: 3B2 Diagnostics
In-Reply-To: <e7a109ccbff89b759413d7300d4cc914@alanlee.org>
References: <20160228162030.GA22771@loomcom.com>
 <e7a109ccbff89b759413d7300d4cc914@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <20160229153145.GA8265@loomcom.com>

* On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 05:24:17PM -0500, Alan Hightower <alan at alanlee.org> wrote:
>  
> 
> Seth, 
> 
> 'filledt' comes on every Essential Utilities Disk 1 along with the unix
> kernel and OS install routines. Get a SVR3 3.0 Essential Utilities Disk
> 1 and run filledt from there. I just went through this last week. 
> 
> You can grab the image from here: 
> 
> http://www.3b2archive.org/archive/disks/3.0/essential_utils_r3.0/disk1 
> 
> -Alan 

Thanks Alan,

Great news! The version of "filledt" on this floppy image works
perfectly with my 3B2 emulator! So the version on the disk image
"3B2-DIAG.imd" that's floating around out there is probably NOT meant
for a 3B2/300 or 3B2/400.

"dgmon" doesn't run, for some reason. Or, rather, it runs and then
just silently exits. There don't appear to actually be any diagnostics
on the disk (nothing under /dgn except the EDT data files), so I'm not
sure if that's why it's failing or not.

I borrowed a 3B2 from Ian Finder this weekend (upon pain of death if I
don't return it!) that came with three floppy disks that may or may
not contain diagnostics. I'll image them today and see if they work on
the emulator.

-Seth

From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 29 09:58:28 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:58:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D3A0B2.9040107@gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <56D3A0B2.9040107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1602290142070.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 28 Feb 2016, Jules Richardson wrote:

> > Computers existed way before 1980, and had many boards plugged into
> > wire-wrapped backplanes or motherboards.
> 
> Backplane was certainly a term from way back, I just don't recall seeing
> motherboard before somewhere around the 1980 timeframe. Maybe you're right
> though and it was in use too, but only by certain companies...

 FWIW I wouldn't call a motherboard a backplane and vice versa.  I'm not a 
native English speaker, but my technical background tells me these are 
simply different terms, at least as far as contemporary hardware is 
concerned.

 A motherboard in my understanding is a piece of circuitry which 
architecturally constitutes a computer system.  It may be lacking a direct 
way to connect a CPU or memory even, which may have to be plugged as 
daugthercards, one or more -- e.g. for a SMP or NUMA system -- and which 
may support different CPU architectures but the core architecture of the 
system itself, like buses, bridges between them, bus arbitration 
circuitry, maybe some essential peripherals -- it's all there, and in 
particular preventing daughtercards from operating on their own.  The 
majority of Intel x86 PC computer boards is a trivial modern example (and 
the computer boards of DEC DECstation and VAXstation lines is a classic 
computing example; some actually had their CPU on a daughtercard).

 A backplane OTOH is just an interconnect with no substantial circuitry, 
where it's the cards plugged in that constitute the system or systems.  
The interconnect provides a way for cards to communicate between each 
other, but the core architecture of the system is on one or more of the 
cards, which in some cases may be able to fully operate on their own, 
without a backplane present.  A modern example is CompactPCI (while DEC 
Q-bus backplanes are a classic example).

 I gather there's some room for debate around some border cases, however I 
wouldn't ever call an x86 PC computer board a backplane just as I wouldn't 
call a CompactPCI backplane a motherboard.

  Maciej

From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 11:21:51 2016
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 10:21:51 -0700
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
	<56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Computers existed way before 1980, and had many boards plugged into
> wire-wrapped backplanes or motherboards.    I'm guessing the terminology
> was company-specific.  IBM had their own name for EVERYTHING, for
> instance.  They did NOT use the term motherboard, as far as I know.  The
> SMS systems like 709x, 1401, etc. had totally passive backplanes.  The SLT
> systems (System/360, 1130/1800, etc.) had passive backplanes, but the local
> interconnect was done mostly with etched traces on multilayer PC boards,
> which also distributed power to the cards.  They just called these
> backplane sections "boards" and the SLT circuit boards that plugged into
> them were "cards".  Not sure where I first saw the term motherboard, or if
> it really implied it had substantial active circuitry on it.
>
>
FWIW, the IBM term for "motherboard" was "planar", at least in the era of
the PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, etc.
The first computer to which I had access was my father's 5150 in
approximately 1984; I remember the
machine came with dual floppy drives and a 64K system planar with an Intel
8088. At some point, a
technician came out and put in a different planar with 256K on-board, added
an additional 256K via
expansion board, and configured it with a 30MB half-height Winchester drive
and controller. This second
planar had an AMD D8088 at the same 4.77MHz speed as the original.

Having this machine handed down to me in about 1991 sparked my interest in
programming; many hours
of BASICA silliness and PC-DOS batch file frustration followed.

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 29 11:24:14 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 09:24:14 -0800
Subject: R: CP/M version 2.1 found
In-Reply-To: <211fsebchqmnqscuc0rx72ty.1456736489844@email.android.com>
References: <211fsebchqmnqscuc0rx72ty.1456736489844@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <56D47EBE.5040104@sydex.com>


> I found an 8-inch floppy disk labeled with "CP/M V2.0 9/4/79" which
> is crossed out and replaced below with "CP/M V2.1 7/13/80".  I don't
> see mention of version 2.1 at http://www.cpm.z80.de.  Do I have
> something unique?  Who can I trust to image this and put the contents
> on the net?


DRI released several updates to 2.0 to OEMs.  I think I still have the 
update bulletins somewhere.  I don't know if I still have the code 
itself.  It was a comparatively short period before 2.2 was released.

I don't recall if the result was 'officially" called 2.1 or not.

--Chuck





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 29 12:36:57 2016
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 18:36:57 +0000
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>,
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027EA386@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> FWIW, the IBM term for "motherboard" was "planar", at least in the era of
> the PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, etc.

But IBM (at that time) also used the term 'Planar' for 'backplane'. The backplane
in the 5161 expansion unit [1] is labelled 'I/O Planar' or something very similar
in the silkscreen.

[1] This is what I would term a backplane rather than a motherboard. It is a 
passive bus. The only real electronics on it is a 14.3..MHz oscillator to provide
the one signal they didn't take (with good reason) from the machine the 
expanison unit was connected to.

I agree with the distincton drawn by others. a 'motherboard' contains significant
parts of the computer circuitry, whereas a 'backplane' is either entirely passive or
contains simple bits of circuitry like buffers, address decoders, clock, reset logic,
etc.

In the HP150, the boards slid in from the rear and connected to a PCB at the front
of the case containing the printer interface and bus connectors. This (owing to 
its position) is called the 'frontplane' in the HP techincal manuals.

-tony

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 29 12:50:38 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 10:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602291025150.4670@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016, John Willis wrote:
> FWIW, the IBM term for "motherboard" was "planar", at least in the era 
> of the PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, etc. The first computer to which I had access 
> was my father's 5150 in approximately 1984; I remember the machine came 
> with dual floppy drives and a 64K system planar with an Intel 8088. At 
> some point, a technician came out and put in a different planar with 
> 256K on-board, added an additional 256K via expansion board, and 
> configured it with a 30MB half-height Winchester drive and controller. 
> This second planar had an AMD D8088 at the same 4.77MHz speed as the 
> original.
> Having this machine handed down to me in about 1991 sparked my interest 
> in programming; many hours of BASICA silliness and PC-DOS batch file 
> frustration followed.

IBM also, at that time, sometimes called it, "System Board".

When IBM announced the 5150 in August 1981, I tried to get my uncle, who 
worked for IBM, to get me the "employee family discount".  He refused.
So, I was delayed a couple of months in ordering one.

I bought, retail at Compurland: system unit, Floppy disk controller, CGA 
video board, Async (RS232 & 20ma), parallel printer board, and PC-DOS 
1.00. (RAM, floppy drives, composite monitor were all commodity items 
that I had for TRS80s, and readily available at less than 20% of IBM's 
prices)

My uncle (a generally unreliable source) said that the reason that IBM 
didn't call it, "motherboard" was that that was "street slang", 
specifically mentioning TV broadcasts of Black Panther speeches at 
Merritt College in the late 1960s (when I was playing with 1620 and 1401 
there!). The speeches had very frequent use of the word "motherfucker", 
which of course was changed to "mother[bleep]" or "mother" by the TV 
people. I do not think that the Black Panthers ever used the word "Planar".
(There was a New Yorker cartoon of a biddy watching TV saying to her 
friend, "I just love the way that he says 'Mother'."  I'd love to draw a 
cartoon of a Panther speaker saying, "Up against the wall, Planar_!")


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From pete at pski.net  Mon Feb 29 13:10:13 2016
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:10:13 -0500
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602291025150.4670@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602291025150.4670@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <0B6A4F71-828D-405A-A9A7-B690F8831949@pski.net>

> Does anyone know the origins of the term 'motherboard'?
> 
> I've always associated it with computers and assumed that it started 
> appearing somewhere around 1980, with the fading out of passive backplane 
> systems and arrival of machines which put more functionality onto a 'core' 
> PCB into which other cards were plugged. I don't recall ever seeing it used 
> when referencing earlier big iron, but maybe I've just missed it.
> 

Here?s a little more muddying of the ?motherboard? term.  When Tandy introduced the Model II in 1980, they named what is essentially a passive backplane as the ?Motherboard? (note the capital M).  This was the main bus for all of the Z80 functions that were provided on plug-in cards, including the CPU card, the floppy controller card, the memory cards and the video/keyboard card.  Then, when they introduced the Model 12/16B a few years later, they had consolidated almost all of the Z80 architecture onto a single board which they referred to as the "Main Logic" board.  The 16B provided a variant of the original passive backplane, to support various additional cards, that plugged into the Main Logic board and they still referred to this as the Motherboard.  So, even though the Main Logic board was what we think of as a motherboard today, the kept the ?Motherboard? naming convention for the backplane.

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 29 14:18:52 2016
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:18:52 -0800
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027EA386@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027EA386@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <56D4A7AC.2030009@sydex.com>

Didn't Intel use what it called "daugherboards" on some of its line of 
Multibus products?  That is, the "offspring" products plugged into the 
Multibus card, not the backplane.

Am I remembering correctly?

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 29 14:44:46 2016
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:44:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D4A7AC.2030009@sydex.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027EA386@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56D4A7AC.2030009@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1602291223330.4670@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Didn't Intel use what it called "daugherboards" on some of its line of 
> Multibus products?  That is, the "offspring" products plugged into the 
> Multibus card, not the backplane.
> Am I remembering correctly?

And, could it be that SOME use of the word "motherboard" was originated to 
differentiate from "daughterboard", rather than intended to be a 
stand-alone term?


Those who hold that a "motherboard" had substantially more on it than a 
"backplane" should look at the "Godbout Motherboard Instructions"
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/random/Godbout%20backplane%20manual.pdf



From george.rachor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 14:40:41 2016
From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:40:41 -0800
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D4A7AC.2030009@sydex.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027EA386@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56D4A7AC.2030009@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <611ED785-D8B9-4DF8-8FFC-3665949B07D6@gmail.com>

Yes... The SBX cards!

Sent from my iPhone
george at rachors.com

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:18 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> Didn't Intel use what it called "daugherboards" on some of its line of Multibus products?  That is, the "offspring" products plugged into the Multibus card, not the backplane.
> 
> Am I remembering correctly?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Feb 29 15:59:23 2016
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 13:59:23 -0800
Subject: Needs help w/ diagnosing and hopefully repairing of a DEC Tape Drive
Message-ID: <008c01d1733c$739435e0$5abca1a0$@net>

In my continuing quest for a 9-track drive I got my hands on DEC TSZ07-CA w/
a narrow SCSI interface that was supposedly "tested working". On arrival to
me I found it wrapped in a thin layer of bubble wrap w/ some broken piece of
Styrofoam thrown in for "packing". 

As one can imagine the drive did not farewell. The outer desktop housing is
cracked in multiple places but still serviceable. The drive itself came with
parts rattling on the inside. I opened it up, cleaned things up a bit, and
put things back together so that now the drive powers up, starts self test,
and then errors out w/ a "50 - Motor Fault" error.

I have checked the wires and reseated everything that I can see. I've also
cleaned all the sensors, blown out the dirt, etc. etc. The problem persists
so I am going to assume a component was damaged in the shipping. I ran the
tests indicated in the tech manual and I get the following results:
generally the supply motor starts to turn but stops even before making a
full revolution. Incidentally if I manually turn the reel it turns fine and
the tape securing arms open and close appropriately. When running the dx
tests sometimes I can get the uptake motor to spin up at full speed and once
even had the supply motor spin up at full speed. Per the tech manual if
restarting the system does not make the problem go away the next step would
be to replace the motor....

Google fu has not turned up much - so before I declare this a very heavy
paper weight anyone have any ideas? Thanks!

-Ali


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Feb 29 16:02:18 2016
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 17:02:18 -0500
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D4BFEA.7080305@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2016-02-28 7:32 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the origins of the term 'motherboard'?
> ...

I was amused to learn that other languages sometimes translate it 
literally. Portuguese uses "placa m?e" - "board mother". (Pt takes lots 
of other technical terms from English and verbs them too.)

--Toby


>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>


From macro at linux-mips.org  Mon Feb 29 18:29:45 2016
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 00:29:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: 'motherboard' etymology
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56D39190.20501@gmail.com> <56D395BC.2080409@pico-systems.com>
 <CAOPi=7CUmaVmej6Q1CoJ9KDd-aoFkX3=wR85dwhqac88Yqq5CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1603010026560.28664@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016, John Willis wrote:

> FWIW, the IBM term for "motherboard" was "planar", at least in the era of
> the PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, etc.

 I believe I saw it on Lenovo ThinkPad part lists some 5 years ago, so the 
term must have survived well beyond the PC/AT, etc.

  Maciej

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Mon Feb 29 19:07:35 2016
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 01:07:35 +0000
Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking
 for a small fast VAX development machine)]
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: David Griffith
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM

> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can
> port Frotz to it.

The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981).  Lots of examples,
well thought out presentation.

It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare.  (Seriously, who
does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.

If you were near Seattle, I'd say make an appointment and I'd give you
an afternoon's worth of overview.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 20:22:36 2016
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:22:36 -0600
Subject: Techno-savvy...
In-Reply-To: <56D44AEA.4000209@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMvyYF-YXr8XFD4q9d1uZrOBBfUgnS=e=NTM8zSGTermw-tT2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7XHGre2FozeOq2nG4uRWv6zFxeYLJnE0S7pasCvosUZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56D44AEA.4000209@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6mviCFg0nt2uSLnUo7AGwxLAg_ORpjx94JMWvKS5P9vA@mail.gmail.com>

"Or "the family member you go to when you can't print"."

A functional niche definition, for sure. "When you can't get your email" is
equivalent.

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
wrote:

> On 2016-02-29 2:43 AM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> "Techno-savvy" is essentially a media / marketing term. For the most part,
>> it means whatever the speaker(s) wish it to mean, within the context in
>> which it is used.
>>
>>
> So I wasn't the only one who cringed.
>
> The term isn't always complimentary; it can just as well be a pejorative.
>>
>> For the most part, the populace-at-large seems to define the term as
>> meaning "conversant in both the established, as well as the nascent
>> technologies of the day".
>>
>
> Or "the family member you go to when you can't print".
>
> --Toby
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Murray McCullough <
>> c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is a techno-savvy student? ...
>>>
>>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb 29 21:42:56 2016
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 19:42:56 -0800
Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking
 for a small fast VAX development machine)]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+6jxjF_cvrPufsu6SQZma4F5gP74cRojnFjeVw=CcjgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 29, 2016 5:07 PM, "Rich Alderson" <RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org>
wrote:
>
> From: David Griffith
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM
>
> > One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can
> > port Frotz to it.
>
> The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20
> Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981).  Lots of examples,
> well thought out presentation.
>
> It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare.  (Seriously, who
> does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???)
> Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy.
>

FWIW Amazon lists used copies of ISBN-13 978-0932376121 around $100. I
bought a used copy a couple of years ago that turned out to be an
ex-library copy. Don't think I paid too much at the time. Still haven't
gotten around to looking at it much.