From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep  1 00:23:55 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:23:55 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
Message-ID: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>

I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.

I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:

1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap,
and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if
this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup). 

Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand
this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would
easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
help/guidance is very much appreciated. 

Thanks.

-Ali


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Sep  1 01:23:44 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:23:44 +0200
Subject: TK50/TK70 Info
In-Reply-To: <C19D26B9-F75F-4C66-A90B-24075A81A1C3@nf6x.net>
References: <CAKtEYUzxd1-6pKeGHgFoQmb4v9ECwq8sLzpyxNVQCBaNQnyr1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <C19D26B9-F75F-4C66-A90B-24075A81A1C3@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <55E54470.9010907@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 28.08.15 um 06:39 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
> I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what little I have is not good. Pictures:
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
> 
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
I had the exact same problem a few years ago. Tape sticks to head...
I wanted to use 9 track instead of TK50, but those tapes where
unreliable too. I finally gave up on tapes, any tape technology, as the
media has deteriorated into uselessness.
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep  1 02:06:25 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:06:25 +0200
Subject: TK50/TK70 Info
In-Reply-To: <55E54470.9010907@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAKtEYUzxd1-6pKeGHgFoQmb4v9ECwq8sLzpyxNVQCBaNQnyr1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <C19D26B9-F75F-4C66-A90B-24075A81A1C3@nf6x.net>
 <55E54470.9010907@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20150901070625.GA63813@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jochen Kunz wrote:

> Am 28.08.15 um 06:39 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
> > I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what little I have is not good. Pictures:
> > 
> > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
> > 
> > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
> I had the exact same problem a few years ago. Tape sticks to head...
> I wanted to use 9 track instead of TK50, but those tapes where
> unreliable too. I finally gave up on tapes, any tape technology, as the
> media has deteriorated into uselessness.
> -- 
> 
> tsch??,
>        Jochen


Hmm... TK50 and 9 Track reels are pretty old, but I have good results
with "newer" Quarter Inch drives (with 525MB and above) and the DLT IVs
are working pretty good to.

There is no 100% reliable technology..

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Tue Sep  1 08:13:08 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:13:08 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
Message-ID: <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [150901 01:24]:
> I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
> desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
> 
> I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
> 
> 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap,
> and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
> 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if
> this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup). 
> 
> Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand
> this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would
> easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
> shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> help/guidance is very much appreciated. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Ali

I'm not surprised by those quotes (and Freightquote is in the ballpark
for pallet loads that can't be top-loaded.)

You could try uship.com but be very careful you fully specify everything
you want and don't expect anything you don't agree with (like must be
shipped inside or tarped, if you can't load/unload then they need to do
so, etc.)

Freight companies will pick up and drop off from your location but if
it's residential then usually on the street (it's up to you to get it
on and off the truck usually.)  This is because they usually send an
18-wheeler.

If it's residential then you need to tell them that and you'll pay more
(generally about $75 more in my experience.)  This is so they'll send a
liftgate truck and will call to make a delivery appt.

Otherwise they expect you to have a loading dock or forklift for
loading/unloading and sometimes will just show up at the address for
delivery and then charge more to redeliver.

Even with a liftgate you'll still be responsible for getting it from the
street to wherever it's going.  You can count on the truck having a
pallet jack so they can usually stick it on the end of your driveway if
you've paid for the liftgate.

It sounds worse than it is as long as you're prepared to do that.

Sometimes it's better to pick up/drop off at a depot since they can
generally load it into or off a pickup truck or trailer there and then
you only have to worry about getting it on/off the truck or trailer.

Todd

From pete at pski.net  Tue Sep  1 08:13:12 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:13:12 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
Message-ID: <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>

Have you looked at https://www.uship.com? <https://www.uship.com/?>  It?s kind of like crowdsourced shipping.  The quality of service can vary but shippers are encouraged to offer good service due to a ratings system.  If you?re lucky you?ll find a shipper already taking your route for another shipment and you can get a good deal.

> On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:23 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> 
> I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
> desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
> 
> I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
> 
> 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap,
> and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
> 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if
> this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup). 
> 
> Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand
> this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would
> easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
> shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> help/guidance is very much appreciated. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -Ali
> 


From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 08:23:01 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:23:01 -0500
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
Message-ID: <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>

What Todd is suggesting sounds a lot like youcrate.com. They were an
economical alternative for a while (friends have used them several times)
but in the last 24 months their prices escalated beyond reason. They pick
up the pallet and they drop off the pallet but it's up to you to handle the
rest.

I've had two experiences with uship, both positive. One as a seller of a
roundie color TV, and one as a buyer of a 1961 washer/dryer combination
machine. In both cases the transport was by pickup truck cross-country.
With collector car shipping reaching ridiculous prices, guys with duallies
and car trailers are finding an untapped market and their truck beds are
usually empty....  -C

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote:

> Have you looked at https://www.uship.com? <https://www.uship.com/?>  It?s
> kind of like crowdsourced shipping.  The quality of service can vary but
> shippers are encouraged to offer good service due to a ratings system.  If
> you?re lucky you?ll find a shipper already taking your route for another
> shipment and you can get a good deal.
>
> > On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:23 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> >
> > I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> > number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> > story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
> > desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> > While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
> >
> > I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
> >
> > 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> > 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble
> wrap,
> > and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
> > 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify
> if
> > this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup).
> >
> > Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I
> understand
> > this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and
> would
> > easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
> > shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> > help/guidance is very much appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Ali
> >
>
>

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  1 08:34:14 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:34:14 +0100
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com>

If its a desk then its furniture. So go to the experts.
Look for home contents movers with an empty backhaul.

  Rod


On 01/09/2015 14:23, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> What Todd is suggesting sounds a lot like youcrate.com. They were an
> economical alternative for a while (friends have used them several times)
> but in the last 24 months their prices escalated beyond reason. They pick
> up the pallet and they drop off the pallet but it's up to you to handle the
> rest.
>
> I've had two experiences with uship, both positive. One as a seller of a
> roundie color TV, and one as a buyer of a 1961 washer/dryer combination
> machine. In both cases the transport was by pickup truck cross-country.
> With collector car shipping reaching ridiculous prices, guys with duallies
> and car trailers are finding an untapped market and their truck beds are
> usually empty....  -C
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote:
>
>> Have you looked at https://www.uship.com? <https://www.uship.com/?>  It?s
>> kind of like crowdsourced shipping.  The quality of service can vary but
>> shippers are encouraged to offer good service due to a ratings system.  If
>> you?re lucky you?ll find a shipper already taking your route for another
>> shipment and you can get a good deal.
>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:23 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
>>> number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
>>> story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
>>> desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
>>> While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
>>>
>>> I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
>>> 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble
>> wrap,
>>> and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
>>> 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify
>> if
>>> this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup).
>>>
>>> Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I
>> understand
>>> this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and
>> would
>>> easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
>>> shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
>>> help/guidance is very much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> -Ali
>>>
>>


From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Tue Sep  1 08:51:30 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:51:30 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150901135130.GG5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

Hi Cory,

Actually what I'm describing is every freight company I've dealt with
(probably ten different companies in all.)

I've also used uship and was mostly happy (which is about as good as my
freight shipping experiences get.)  I didn't specify that the load
needed to be inside or tarped and I ended up with a forklift and battery
charger covered in road salt (shipped from the midwest to northeast in
the winter time.)

Todd

* Cory Heisterkamp <coryheisterkamp at gmail.com> [150901 09:23]:
> What Todd is suggesting sounds a lot like youcrate.com. They were an
> economical alternative for a while (friends have used them several times)
> but in the last 24 months their prices escalated beyond reason. They pick
> up the pallet and they drop off the pallet but it's up to you to handle the
> rest.
> 
> I've had two experiences with uship, both positive. One as a seller of a
> roundie color TV, and one as a buyer of a 1961 washer/dryer combination
> machine. In both cases the transport was by pickup truck cross-country.
> With collector car shipping reaching ridiculous prices, guys with duallies
> and car trailers are finding an untapped market and their truck beds are
> usually empty....  -C
> 
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote:
> 
> > Have you looked at https://www.uship.com? <https://www.uship.com/?>  It?s
> > kind of like crowdsourced shipping.  The quality of service can vary but
> > shippers are encouraged to offer good service due to a ratings system.  If
> > you?re lucky you?ll find a shipper already taking your route for another
> > shipment and you can get a good deal.
> >
> > > On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:23 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> > > number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> > > story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
> > > desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> > > While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
> > >
> > > I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
> > >
> > > 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> > > 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble
> > wrap,
> > > and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
> > > 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify
> > if
> > > this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup).
> > >
> > > Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I
> > understand
> > > this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and
> > would
> > > easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
> > > shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> > > help/guidance is very much appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > -Ali
> > >
> >
> >

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:01:29 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:01:29 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com>
 <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> The MEM11 is a multi-function memory board for Unibus based PDP-11
> computers.  It contains:
>
>  * 128KW memory
>  * Emulates console ROM & boot ROMs
>  * 2 SLUs (DL11s)
>  * KW11K
>  * KW11P
>  * KW11L
>  * KW11W
>  * RF11 (emulating up to 8 RS11 disks)
>  * KE11

Nice collection of features!

> The main objective is to provide the memory and I/O necessary
> to be able to run Unix V1

I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.

According to http://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/ancient/index.html
Unix v1 requires/supports:

"32K, RF-11 + RK03 disks, KE11A module [extended arithmetic element
for multiply/divide], DC-11 8 TTYs, TC-11 DECTape"

I haven't dug through the device driver code, but I expect that the RK
driver would support either the RK11-C (Flip Chips) or the RK11-D
(M7254, M7255, M7256 and M7257) since AFAIK they are
register-compatible.  I have both, but the RK11-D has been tested/used
(the RK11-C has a lot of parts and a lot of connections to corrode).

At least an RK11-D and one or more RK05s is a lot easier to find than,
say, an RF11.

-ethan

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue Sep  1 10:17:03 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:17:03 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <20150901135130.GG5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150901135130.GG5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <AFB8B586-1264-468B-8D84-30664F2813B9@nf6x.net>

I've quoted through FreightQuote a few times, and generally paid about $300-$450 for a single pallet, cross country, with will-call pickup at a local freight terminal. If you choose to pick up at the terminal, show up with a vehicle that they will be able to load with a forklift. Results may vary depending on the freight company that you choose to handle the load.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep  1 10:22:32 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
Message-ID: <020d01d0e4ca$06e98b80$14bca280$@net>

> Have you looked at https://www.uship.com? <https://www.uship.com/?>
> It?s kind of like crowdsourced shipping.  The quality of service can
> vary 

Peter,

They are my last resort for that exact reason.

-Ali


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep  1 10:22:32 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <020c01d0e4ca$06a7eea0$13f7cbe0$@net>

> If its a desk then its furniture. So go to the experts.
> Look for home contents movers with an empty backhaul.

Rod,

Any suggestions or aggregate web sites I can look at? Or do I need to just look for house movers and go from there?

-Ali


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep  1 10:22:32 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:22:32 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>

> I'm not surprised by those quotes (and Freightquote is in the ballpark
> for pallet loads that can't be top-loaded.)

Okay, good to know I am not getting fleeced. I am actually okay with
FreightQuote but the problem is the seller is very hesitant to palletize the
item. If I can get him to get it on a pallet that might be the best. 

> You could try uship.com but be very careful you fully specify
> everything you want and don't expect anything you don't agree with
> (like must be shipped inside or tarped, if you can't load/unload then
> they need to do so, etc.)

I've been a bit hesitant going to uship because of the damn AMC show. I
understand they probably have some of the bigger idiots on the show but the
things they do is just amazingly idiotic... With them do I need to worry
about having a dock or delivery to door or is that expected? I would specify
"no top load, in cab or covered for the total duration of transport,
strapped so it does not roll/move, and no loading/unloading." Anything else
that I should worry about?

> Freight companies will pick up and drop off from your location but if
> it's residential then usually on the street (it's up to you to get it
> on and off the truck usually.)  This is because they usually send an
> 18-wheeler.

It is not so heavy that we cannot bring it off the truck with myself and the
driver (assuming they do that). I can then just use a dolly from the street
or roll it on its built in wheels.


> If it's residential then you need to tell them that and you'll pay more
> (generally about $75 more in my experience.)  This is so they'll send a
> liftgate truck and will call to make a delivery appt.

I can do either (i.e. residential vs. business) but as I said we do not have
a dock at the business either. Of course there are three or four works
available at any time to just manually unload it if they will let us.


Thanks for all the advice Todd.

-Ali


From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 10:48:02 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 11:48:02 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
Message-ID: <CAPi4v44WdZ7iR7XFVeKEA4b8zqDgAD5zQKh18Y450wnKLouW2Q@mail.gmail.com>

You could always try North American Van Lines (NAVL).  They normally do
household moves, but they also do a lot of "one-of" moves for the pinball
hobby.  They're already experienced with furniture, and no question of it
being hauled outside of a closed tractor trailer.

Todd Killingsworth

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > I'm not surprised by those quotes (and Freightquote is in the ballpark
> > for pallet loads that can't be top-loaded.)
>
> Okay, good to know I am not getting fleeced. I am actually okay with
> FreightQuote but the problem is the seller is very hesitant to palletize
> the
> item. If I can get him to get it on a pallet that might be the best.
>
> > You could try uship.com but be very careful you fully specify
> > everything you want and don't expect anything you don't agree with
> > (like must be shipped inside or tarped, if you can't load/unload then
> > they need to do so, etc.)
>
> I've been a bit hesitant going to uship because of the damn AMC show. I
> understand they probably have some of the bigger idiots on the show but the
> things they do is just amazingly idiotic... With them do I need to worry
> about having a dock or delivery to door or is that expected? I would
> specify
> "no top load, in cab or covered for the total duration of transport,
> strapped so it does not roll/move, and no loading/unloading." Anything else
> that I should worry about?
>
> > Freight companies will pick up and drop off from your location but if
> > it's residential then usually on the street (it's up to you to get it
> > on and off the truck usually.)  This is because they usually send an
> > 18-wheeler.
>
> It is not so heavy that we cannot bring it off the truck with myself and
> the
> driver (assuming they do that). I can then just use a dolly from the street
> or roll it on its built in wheels.
>
>
> > If it's residential then you need to tell them that and you'll pay more
> > (generally about $75 more in my experience.)  This is so they'll send a
> > liftgate truck and will call to make a delivery appt.
>
> I can do either (i.e. residential vs. business) but as I said we do not
> have
> a dock at the business either. Of course there are three or four works
> available at any time to just manually unload it if they will let us.
>
>
> Thanks for all the advice Todd.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Tue Sep  1 10:49:54 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 11:49:54 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
Message-ID: <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [150901 11:22]:
> > I'm not surprised by those quotes (and Freightquote is in the ballpark
> > for pallet loads that can't be top-loaded.)
> 
> Okay, good to know I am not getting fleeced. I am actually okay with
> FreightQuote but the problem is the seller is very hesitant to palletize the
> item. If I can get him to get it on a pallet that might be the best. 

Yeah, that's the tough part.  Also if someone has never done it before I
get concerned about how well they do it (will they strap it to the
pallet or just set it on top maybe with some shrink wrap to hold it
down?  Will they put cardboard around it all?  Will they cover the top?
etc.)

> 
> > You could try uship.com but be very careful you fully specify
> > everything you want and don't expect anything you don't agree with
> > (like must be shipped inside or tarped, if you can't load/unload then
> > they need to do so, etc.)
> 
> I've been a bit hesitant going to uship because of the damn AMC show. I
> understand they probably have some of the bigger idiots on the show but the
> things they do is just amazingly idiotic... With them do I need to worry
> about having a dock or delivery to door or is that expected? I would specify
> "no top load, in cab or covered for the total duration of transport,
> strapped so it does not roll/move, and no loading/unloading." Anything else
> that I should worry about?

I've seen the show.  It's a show and what they show is for the show.  I
mean really, would you go with someone with a half star feedback rating
versus five stars to save $5???

I've only gone the uship route a couple times and both times the
companies were professional shipping companies.

In both cases they expected the same kind of deal as the freight
companies I've dealt with.  Tractor-trailer on the street and you get it
on/off yourself of have made arrangements with them beforehand.

I believe it's "top load only" (i.e., only put this on top of other
things or the ground, don't put anything on top of it.)

Inside or tarped.

I can't imagine a shipper not strapping it down adequately as it's a
huge safety issue if not.

When I shipped a forklift the person I selected from uship was willing
to arrange for a rolltop wrecker (to get the forklift off the trailer
and winched to the ground on delivery.)  At the pickup the person I
bought it from had a forklift that they managed to use to get it up on
the trailer.

So just make sure you're clear on everything you need.

When a shipper bids you can ask them questions too and it's in their
best interest to be responsive at that point (since you haven't selected
the shipper yet.)  Although the two companies I've used were very
responsive and communicative after I selected them too.

I can't think of anything else to worry about offhand.  Maybe others
have more things to worry about?  :-)

> 
> > Freight companies will pick up and drop off from your location but if
> > it's residential then usually on the street (it's up to you to get it
> > on and off the truck usually.)  This is because they usually send an
> > 18-wheeler.
> 
> It is not so heavy that we cannot bring it off the truck with myself and the
> driver (assuming they do that). I can then just use a dolly from the street
> or roll it on its built in wheels.

Most drivers I've dealt with have been pretty nice and helpful.  Though
I'm not sure they'd all help lift it off the truck.

> 
> 
> > If it's residential then you need to tell them that and you'll pay more
> > (generally about $75 more in my experience.)  This is so they'll send a
> > liftgate truck and will call to make a delivery appt.
> 
> I can do either (i.e. residential vs. business) but as I said we do not have
> a dock at the business either. Of course there are three or four works
> available at any time to just manually unload it if they will let us.

Residential seems to trigger both the call to schedule the delivery appt
as well as the liftgate but I'm sure if you talk to the shipper about it
they'll tell you which way you have to go for what you need.

They'll likely let you lift it off the back of the truck yourself (at
least when I've received things at a business with no loading dock or
forklift freight company that time let us.)

> 
> 
> Thanks for all the advice Todd.

I hope it all works out OK and let us know how it goes!

Todd

> 
> -Ali

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 08:57:34 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:57:34 -0400
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 September 2015 at 00:54, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I traced the 18Khz signal all the way from the moment it enters the
>> logic board until the video board (attached to the neck of the CRT).
>> The signal is there (it has different shapes but it is 18KHz). The
>
> No, that is a different 18kHz signal. That is the video, which will
> have a significant component at the horizontal frequency. It
> starts from pins 6 (intensity) and 7 (video) of the DE9 connector
>

Oh, I think I understand now Video is different than horizontal board.

> You need to trace on from pin 8 to transistors on the main board,
> right up to the flyback transformer.
>
I did. The 18KHz signal is present when it enters the board from the
wire, it is also present on the collector of the following 2
transistors (the TR21 and TR22 which are part of the brightness
limiter and horizontal driver respectively), also at the output of the
T501 transformer and at the collector of the TR23 transistor (which is
labeled as Horizontal out). I then traced at every pin until the
flyback transformer input (pin 4). According to the schematic and the
board it seems that is the signal path from the moment it enters the
logic board until it reaches the flyback transformer.

However the flyback transformer is definitely not outputting the
voltages it is supposed to, as the manual tells me to measure 56.8V at
the cathode of diode D504 which is basically connected to the output
pin 6 of the flyback transformer and I only measure few mV.

Could a winding of the FBT be burned somehow?

Regards,
Vlad.
> -tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  1 09:59:13 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:59:13 +0000
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > You need to trace on from pin 8 to transistors on the main board,
> > right up to the flyback transformer.
> >
> I did. The 18KHz signal is present when it enters the board from the
> wire, it is also present on the collector of the following 2
> transistors (the TR21 and TR22 which are part of the brightness
> limiter and horizontal driver respectively), also at the output of the
> T501 transformer and at the collector of the TR23 transistor (which is
> labeled as Horizontal out). I then traced at every pin until the
> flyback transformer input (pin 4). According to the schematic and the
> board it seems that is the signal path from the moment it enters the
> logic board until it reaches the flyback transformer.

What do you see on the collector of TR23, which should be a small power
transitor (TO220 package I think). If it's working properly there would be some
very high voltage spikes (kV) there, but under these conditions probably not. What
is the average DC voltage there?


> However the flyback transformer is definitely not outputting the
> voltages it is supposed to, as the manual tells me to measure 56.8V at
> the cathode of diode D504 which is basically connected to the output
> pin 6 of the flyback transformer and I only measure few mV.
> 
> Could a winding of the FBT be burned somehow?

Could be, You have a schematic, the flyback windings should be very
low resistances. Check them with the ohmmeter.

-tony

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep  1 10:39:29 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:39:29 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>

On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> 
>> The main objective is to provide the memory and I/O necessary
>> to be able to run Unix V1
> 
> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
> 

You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a wider
range of devices.

http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/Mini-Unix/


From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Sep  1 11:23:14 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:23:14 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
Message-ID: <55E5D0F2.9070405@jwsss.com>



On 9/1/2015 8:22 AM, Ali wrote:
>> I'm not surprised by those quotes (and Freightquote is in the ballpark
>> for pallet loads that can't be top-loaded.)
> Okay, good to know I am not getting fleeced. I am actually okay with
> FreightQuote but the problem is the seller is very hesitant to palletize the
> item. If I can get him to get it on a pallet that might be the best.
>
>> You could try uship.com but be very careful you fully specify
>> everything you want and don't expect anything you don't agree with
>> (like must be shipped inside or tarped, if you can't load/unload then
>> they need to do so, etc.)
> I've been a bit hesitant going to uship because of the damn AMC show. I
> understand they probably have some of the bigger idiots on the show but the
> things they do is just amazingly idiotic... With them do I need to worry
> about having a dock or delivery to door or is that expected? I would specify
> "no top load, in cab or covered for the total duration of transport,
> strapped so it does not roll/move, and no loading/unloading." Anything else
> that I should worry about?
>
>> Freight companies will pick up and drop off from your location but if
>> it's residential then usually on the street (it's up to you to get it
>> on and off the truck usually.)  This is because they usually send an
>> 18-wheeler.
> It is not so heavy that we cannot bring it off the truck with myself and the
> driver (assuming they do that). I can then just use a dolly from the street
> or roll it on its built in wheels.
>
The driver won't do it.  And they won't be happy if you are not there 
ready to move when they come by.

The freight companies have entirely different divisions or companies 
that deliver from freight terminals to terminus locations and the 
drivers who run the trucks are just charged with moving the trailers 
from terminals to terminals or as he says here, sometimes other 
locations.  But they usually want dock high places to unload, and seldom 
will leave trailers for you to unload (if you have a full trailer).

If you can get it palletized and delivered to a freight terminal at the 
far end, and want to save a buck on the shipping and control that 
youself, look for a "Less than load" quote from the larger lines, like 
YRC and ABF and the like.  At your end you will get the unit at the 
nearest freight terminal for the line you choose.  I have a google maps 
link to one in Orange California I've used.  They won't hold your 
delivery there long, but there are usually ways to get a pallet either 
onto another dock high vehicle, they frequently have a pickup truck high 
dock, or the will have ramps down to ground level you can go to and load 
onto a lift gate truck, or whatever.

look at the google search for "abf freight less than load" page and it 
will make quotes for you to examine the rates.  You'll have to guess or 
know the weight, but you should already know the locations.  The extra 
you need at the shipping end is the outfit to pick up the desk, and band 
it on a pallet.  Make sure they will shield it properly as if they band 
it as they should have to, it will make big spots in the finish if not 
done correctly.

And when you get the freight quote make sure you make it clear it can't 
be stacked.  They can't always make provisions to put in a LTL item on 
the top of the truck.

Remember you are dealing with multiple entities here the local delivery 
place at the far end, the freight line, then your delivery service, 
which you will do yourself possibly.

thanks
Jim

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7982243,-117.8756655,18z/data=!3m1!1e3

Here is the ABF LTL site.

http://www.abfs.com/services/ltlfreight/

>> If it's residential then you need to tell them that and you'll pay more
>> (generally about $75 more in my experience.)  This is so they'll send a
>> liftgate truck and will call to make a delivery appt.
> I can do either (i.e. residential vs. business) but as I said we do not have
> a dock at the business either. Of course there are three or four works
> available at any time to just manually unload it if they will let us.
>
>
> Thanks for all the advice Todd.
>
> -Ali
>
>


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep  1 11:52:00 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 17:52:00 +0100
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <020c01d0e4ca$06a7eea0$13f7cbe0$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com> <020c01d0e4ca$06a7eea0$13f7cbe0$@net>
Message-ID: <55E5D7B0.5010807@btinternet.com>

Hi Ali
           It was just an idea - I am located in the UK - distances are 
shorter and rates different.
We have a lot of "white (ie unmarked) van men" who are keen to do 
anything that can be done in a day.


Rod Smallwood


On 01/09/2015 16:22, Ali wrote:
>> If its a desk then its furniture. So go to the experts.
>> Look for home contents movers with an empty backhaul.
> Rod,
>
> Any suggestions or aggregate web sites I can look at? Or do I need to just look for house movers and go from there?
>
> -Ali
>


From craig at solomonson.net  Tue Sep  1 12:31:42 2015
From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 12:31:42 -0500
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
Message-ID: <bdb2b0e98b4f96020a078cca0ef6505d.squirrel@www.solomonson.net>

My other hobby is antique "hit and miss gas engines." Most collectors in
this hobby use "Fastenal Third Party Logistics (3PL)". I recently had an
engine that fit on a 4' x 4' pallet and weighed 1200 pounds shipped from
Kentucky to Minnesota for $200. Fastenal has stores all over the U.S. and
daily freight deliveries. They take on other freight when room is
available. You are responsible for crating the item and placing on a
pallet. I think my last delivery took about a week to complete. Their
stores are equipped with loading docks and forklifts so it is rather
convenient. You can go their website and see if they have service for your
area and get a quote:
https://www.fastenal.com/en/22/third-party-logistics-(3pl)

Craig

On Tue, September 1, 2015 12:23 am, Ali wrote:
> I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
>  desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
>
>
> I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
>
>
> 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble
> wrap, and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight). 3.
> Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if
> this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup).
>
> Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I
> understand this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of
> things) and would easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet.
> But I've never
> shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> help/guidance is very much appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> -Ali
>
>
>


From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep  1 12:35:05 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 13:35:05 -0400
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <55E5D7B0.5010807@btinternet.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com>
 <020c01d0e4ca$06a7eea0$13f7cbe0$@net>
 <55E5D7B0.5010807@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX9BY1KOmFDttq4ui6JL+q4qGPqN1F+jKhF0XTkPeE7Fw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know how uptight your place of employment is (or if you're retired)
but if you're friendly with the dockmaster or mail room staff at your
office building, it can be worth having a little chat with them to see if
you can just arrange to have palletized freight shipped to your office;
take advantage of the infrastructure there to get it off the truck, then
you can break down the pallet over lunch, or after hours into chunks that
will fit into your personal vehicle. I've done this and it's worked out
great ... I wouldn't make a habit of it, but for a one-off thing and a
comparatively small pallet, they were happy to hold it for me and give me a
call. I don't know what the companies charge for liftgate service but if
you want to run a palletized LTL and you can receive at a dock on your end,
it should end up costing you roughly a dollar a pound or so for the transit.

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Rod Smallwood <
rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> Hi Ali
>           It was just an idea - I am located in the UK - distances are
> shorter and rates different.
> We have a lot of "white (ie unmarked) van men" who are keen to do anything
> that can be done in a day.
>
>
> Rod Smallwood
>
>
>
> On 01/09/2015 16:22, Ali wrote:
>
>> If its a desk then its furniture. So go to the experts.
>>> Look for home contents movers with an empty backhaul.
>>>
>> Rod,
>>
>> Any suggestions or aggregate web sites I can look at? Or do I need to
>> just look for house movers and go from there?
>>
>> -Ali
>>
>>
>

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 12:56:32 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 13:56:32 -0400
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CADgrRPjNtU9HijOdn=B8TN_6mKxG2niESWFFYviGYbuyfNx-LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 September 2015 at 10:59, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> What do you see on the collector of TR23, which should be a small power
> transitor (TO220 package I think). If it's working properly there would be some
> very high voltage spikes (kV) there, but under these conditions probably not. What
> is the average DC voltage there?

Hmm, you are right, I am not seeing any spikes in voltage there. On
the collector of the TR23 all I am getting as DC voltage is around
110mV. The oscilloscope tells me I am getting Vpp of about 4.4V with
Vmax at 2.6V and Vmin at -1.8V and an average of 105mV (which matches
what my multimeter tells me too).

That sounds too low doesn't it?

>
> Could be, You have a schematic, the flyback windings should be very
> low resistances. Check them with the ohmmeter.
>

I did measure the resistances across pins of the flyback transformer
on the same windings and I am getting (what I think are) good results:
1 or 2.2 Ohms (for the 2 windings left and right, not the upper one,
as I do not want to touch the high voltage stuff for now).

> -tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  1 12:57:35 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 17:57:35 +0000
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPjNtU9HijOdn=B8TN_6mKxG2niESWFFYviGYbuyfNx-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CADgrRPjNtU9HijOdn=B8TN_6mKxG2niESWFFYviGYbuyfNx-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2B6A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>
> Hmm, you are right, I am not seeing any spikes in voltage there. On
> the collector of the TR23 all I am getting as DC voltage is around
> 110mV. The oscilloscope tells me I am getting Vpp of about 4.4V with
> Vmax at 2.6V and Vmin at -1.8V and an average of 105mV (which matches
> what my multimeter tells me too).
> 
> That sounds too low doesn't it?

That is far too low. 

Firstly, there should be a 12V or so feed to one pin on the flyback primary
winding (the winding that links to the collector of TR23). Is that present and 
correct? What about other components connected to that winding.

Are you sure TR23 is good. The horizontal output transistor in many monitors
often fails.

-tony

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:13:17 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 15:13:17 -0500
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>

I can boot to VAX/VMS 5.4-2, but on startup, I see this message:

%DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[RS1R4]RS1LOG.COM; as input
-RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
%DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ORACLES]ORAUSER.COM; as input
-RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
%DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ECMS4]LOGIN.COM; as input
-RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable

Okay, so DUB0: isn't mounted, I guess.

ROHIT1$ show dev

Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
 Trans Mnt
 Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
Count Cnt
R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173289
134   1
ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
ROHIT1$DUB1:            Online               0
ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0

Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
 Trans Mnt
 Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
Count Cnt
ROHIT1$MUA0:            Online               0

Device                  Device           Error
 Name                   Status           Count
FTA0:                   Offline              0
OPA0:                   Online               0
TWA0:                   Offline              0

Device                  Device           Error
 Name                   Status           Count
IKA0:                   Offline              0
IMA0:                   Offline              0
INA0:                   Offline              0
PTA0:                   Online               1
PUA0:                   Online               1
PUB0:                   Online               2
PUC0:                   Online               2
PYA0:                   Offline              0
SJA0:                   Online               0
SJA1:                   Online               0
WSA0:                   Offline              0
XQA0:                   Online               0

Looks like they're online but not mounted. If I'm reading the help pages
correctly, I should just be able to mount it at this point:

ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
%MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
-MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ', format =
'DEC
FILE11B  '

I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount. Now
I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:

ROHIT1$ show device/served
       MSCP-Served Devices on ROHIT1  1-SEP-2015 10:55:19.39

                                             Queue Requests
Device:           Status      Total Size     Current    Max     Hosts
%SHOW-E-MSCPNOTLD, MSCP-Server code not loaded

No, it doesn't look like it...so getting back to the >>> prompt, I do a bit
more investigation:

>>>show dev
UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
-DUA0 (RF71)

UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
-DUB0 (RA81)
-DUB1 (RA81)

UQSSP Disk Controller 2 (760340)
-DUC10 (RA81)

UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500)
-MUA0 (TK70)

Ethernet Adapter 0 (774440)
-XQA0 (08-00-2B-17-3F-37)

I should be able to get to the PARAMS> prompt now:

>>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 1 params
Starting DUP server...

UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)

Stopping DUP server...
>>>

Or not? Why can't I seem to get to the prompt? I can with disk 0:

>>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 0 params
Starting DUP server...

UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
Copyright 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation

PARAMS> show allclass

Parameter     Current           Default        Type     Radix
--------- ----------------  ----------------  --------  -----
ALLCLASS                 0                 0      Byte    Dec   B

PARAMS>

Can't seem to get to PARAMS> with disk 2 or tape 0 either. Only disk 0
seems to work.

Can anyone provide any suggestions? I'd like to see what else is on the
system. Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra

Thanks,

Kyle

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:23:11 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:23:11 -0400
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudYCxNH4QxKCkPWUzQ2qFZV0_mA9viZ0XvuExkHW44g3g@mail.gmail.com>

>>> B/1 DIA0:

SYSBOOT> CONTINUE

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can boot to VAX/VMS 5.4-2, but on startup, I see this message:
>
> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[RS1R4]RS1LOG.COM; as input
> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ORACLES]ORAUSER.COM; as input
> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ECMS4]LOGIN.COM; as input
> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
>
> Okay, so DUB0: isn't mounted, I guess.
>
> ROHIT1$ show dev
>
> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
>  Trans Mnt
>  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
> Count Cnt
> R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173289
> 134   1
> ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
> ROHIT1$DUB1:            Online               0
> ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0
>
> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
>  Trans Mnt
>  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
> Count Cnt
> ROHIT1$MUA0:            Online               0
>
> Device                  Device           Error
>  Name                   Status           Count
> FTA0:                   Offline              0
> OPA0:                   Online               0
> TWA0:                   Offline              0
>
> Device                  Device           Error
>  Name                   Status           Count
> IKA0:                   Offline              0
> IMA0:                   Offline              0
> INA0:                   Offline              0
> PTA0:                   Online               1
> PUA0:                   Online               1
> PUB0:                   Online               2
> PUC0:                   Online               2
> PYA0:                   Offline              0
> SJA0:                   Online               0
> SJA1:                   Online               0
> WSA0:                   Offline              0
> XQA0:                   Online               0
>
> Looks like they're online but not mounted. If I'm reading the help pages
> correctly, I should just be able to mount it at this point:
>
> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ', format =
> 'DEC
> FILE11B  '
>
> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount. Now
> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
>
> ROHIT1$ show device/served
>        MSCP-Served Devices on ROHIT1  1-SEP-2015 10:55:19.39
>
>                                              Queue Requests
> Device:           Status      Total Size     Current    Max     Hosts
> %SHOW-E-MSCPNOTLD, MSCP-Server code not loaded
>
> No, it doesn't look like it...so getting back to the >>> prompt, I do a bit
> more investigation:
>
> >>>show dev
> UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
> -DUA0 (RF71)
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
> -DUB0 (RA81)
> -DUB1 (RA81)
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 2 (760340)
> -DUC10 (RA81)
>
> UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500)
> -MUA0 (TK70)
>
> Ethernet Adapter 0 (774440)
> -XQA0 (08-00-2B-17-3F-37)
>
> I should be able to get to the PARAMS> prompt now:
>
> >>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 1 params
> Starting DUP server...
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
>
> Stopping DUP server...
> >>>
>
> Or not? Why can't I seem to get to the prompt? I can with disk 0:
>
> >>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 0 params
> Starting DUP server...
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
> Copyright 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation
>
> PARAMS> show allclass
>
> Parameter     Current           Default        Type     Radix
> --------- ----------------  ----------------  --------  -----
> ALLCLASS                 0                 0      Byte    Dec   B
>
> PARAMS>
>
> Can't seem to get to PARAMS> with disk 2 or tape 0 either. Only disk 0
> seems to work.
>
> Can anyone provide any suggestions? I'd like to see what else is on the
> system. Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Sep  1 15:34:32 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 21:34:32 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:13:17 -0500"
 <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Looks like they're online but not mounted. If I'm reading the help pages
> correctly, I should just be able to mount it at this point:
>
> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ', format =
> 'DECFILE11B  '
>
> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount. Now
> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
>

What happens if you try:

$ MOUNT /NOASSIST /SYSTEM DUB0: USER01

>
> ROHIT1$ show device/served
>       MSCP-Served Devices on ROHIT1  1-SEP-2015 10:55:19.39
>
>                                             Queue Requests
> Device:           Status      Total Size     Current    Max     Hosts
> %SHOW-E-MSCPNOTLD, MSCP-Server code not loaded
>

This will only affect the ability to mount locally attached disks from other
nodes in the cluster.  It should not have any bearing on mounting them on the
same cluster node they are attached to.

>
> No, it doesn't look like it...so getting back to the >>> prompt, I do a bit
> more investigation:
>
> >>>show dev
> UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
> -DUA0 (RF71)
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
> -DUB0 (RA81)
> -DUB1 (RA81)
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 2 (760340)
> -DUC10 (RA81)
>
> UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500)
> -MUA0 (TK70)
>
> Ethernet Adapter 0 (774440)
> -XQA0 (08-00-2B-17-3F-37)
>
> I should be able to get to the PARAMS> prompt now:
>
> >>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 1 params
> Starting DUP server...
>
> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
>
> Stopping DUP server...
> >>>
>
> Or not? Why can't I seem to get to the prompt? I can with disk 0:
>

SET HOST /DUP only works for DSSI disks - DUB0 is not a DSSI disk.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 15:47:48 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:47:48 -0400
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudYCxNH4QxKCkPWUzQ2qFZV0_mA9viZ0XvuExkHW44g3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudYCxNH4QxKCkPWUzQ2qFZV0_mA9viZ0XvuExkHW44g3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucZK8rjXGN_f1oM_c0B=2rLgmpKhm2-9V-18T6cSYWC4Q@mail.gmail.com>

If you want I can turn on my 4000 and you can telnet into it to compare and
contrast.  Contact me privately for credentials.

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:23 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> B/1 DIA0:
>
> SYSBOOT> CONTINUE
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can boot to VAX/VMS 5.4-2, but on startup, I see this message:
>>
>> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[RS1R4]RS1LOG.COM; as input
>> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
>> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ORACLES]ORAUSER.COM; as input
>> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
>> %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DUB0:[ECMS4]LOGIN.COM; as input
>> -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable
>>
>> Okay, so DUB0: isn't mounted, I guess.
>>
>> ROHIT1$ show dev
>>
>> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
>>  Trans Mnt
>>  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
>> Count Cnt
>> R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173289
>> 134   1
>> ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
>> ROHIT1$DUB1:            Online               0
>> ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0
>>
>> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
>>  Trans Mnt
>>  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
>> Count Cnt
>> ROHIT1$MUA0:            Online               0
>>
>> Device                  Device           Error
>>  Name                   Status           Count
>> FTA0:                   Offline              0
>> OPA0:                   Online               0
>> TWA0:                   Offline              0
>>
>> Device                  Device           Error
>>  Name                   Status           Count
>> IKA0:                   Offline              0
>> IMA0:                   Offline              0
>> INA0:                   Offline              0
>> PTA0:                   Online               1
>> PUA0:                   Online               1
>> PUB0:                   Online               2
>> PUC0:                   Online               2
>> PYA0:                   Offline              0
>> SJA0:                   Online               0
>> SJA1:                   Online               0
>> WSA0:                   Offline              0
>> XQA0:                   Online               0
>>
>> Looks like they're online but not mounted. If I'm reading the help pages
>> correctly, I should just be able to mount it at this point:
>>
>> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
>> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
>> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ', format
>> =
>> 'DEC
>> FILE11B  '
>>
>> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount.
>> Now
>> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
>>
>> ROHIT1$ show device/served
>>        MSCP-Served Devices on ROHIT1  1-SEP-2015 10:55:19.39
>>
>>                                              Queue Requests
>> Device:           Status      Total Size     Current    Max     Hosts
>> %SHOW-E-MSCPNOTLD, MSCP-Server code not loaded
>>
>> No, it doesn't look like it...so getting back to the >>> prompt, I do a
>> bit
>> more investigation:
>>
>> >>>show dev
>> UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
>> -DUA0 (RF71)
>>
>> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
>> -DUB0 (RA81)
>> -DUB1 (RA81)
>>
>> UQSSP Disk Controller 2 (760340)
>> -DUC10 (RA81)
>>
>> UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500)
>> -MUA0 (TK70)
>>
>> Ethernet Adapter 0 (774440)
>> -XQA0 (08-00-2B-17-3F-37)
>>
>> I should be able to get to the PARAMS> prompt now:
>>
>> >>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 1 params
>> Starting DUP server...
>>
>> UQSSP Disk Controller 1 (760334)
>>
>> Stopping DUP server...
>> >>>
>>
>> Or not? Why can't I seem to get to the prompt? I can with disk 0:
>>
>> >>>set host /dup/uqssp/disk 0 params
>> Starting DUP server...
>>
>> UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150)
>> Copyright 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation
>>
>> PARAMS> show allclass
>>
>> Parameter     Current           Default        Type     Radix
>> --------- ----------------  ----------------  --------  -----
>> ALLCLASS                 0                 0      Byte    Dec   B
>>
>> PARAMS>
>>
>> Can't seem to get to PARAMS> with disk 2 or tape 0 either. Only disk 0
>> seems to work.
>>
>> Can anyone provide any suggestions? I'd like to see what else is on the
>> system. Pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/WYGra
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kyle
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bill
> vintagecomputer.net
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 16:09:54 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:09:54 -0700
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
>>
>> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
>> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
>> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ', format =
>> 'DECFILE11B  '
>>
>> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount. Now
>> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
>>
>
> What happens if you try:
>
> $ MOUNT /NOASSIST /SYSTEM DUB0: USER01
>

You could also try this so you don't have to specify the label
$ MOUNT /OVER=ID DUB0:

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 16:25:36 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:25:36 -0500
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxXSo47Ae-4nkEyrCLm2aYuM73wpG9jj5=SF8r30mHsJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
> >> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
> >> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ',
> format =
> >> 'DECFILE11B  '
> >>
> >> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount.
> Now
> >> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
> >>
> >
> > What happens if you try:
> >
> > $ MOUNT /NOASSIST /SYSTEM DUB0: USER01
> >
>
> You could also try this so you don't have to specify the label
> $ MOUNT /OVER=ID DUB0:
>

No dice...

ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub0:
%MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read
ROHIT1$ mount /noassist /system dub0: user01
%MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
-SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read

But it did work for DUB1:!

ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub1:
%MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, BACKUP_DISK  mounted on _ROHIT1$DUB1:

ROHIT1$ show dev

Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
 Trans Mnt
 Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
Count Cnt
R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173103
134   1
ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
ROHIT1$DUB1:            Mounted alloc        0  BACKUP_DISK    1404072
1   1
ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0

I'm not sure exactly which disk is DUC10:, but mount tells me the medium is
offline.

Still attempting to learn enough VMS to get a directory listing on DUB1:,
but I'm getting there! Thanks for the tips.

Kyle

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 16:36:47 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:36:47 -0500
Subject: TK70 sticky unload button?
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxDSm9GBTst-P6hLN=EpAJGERUN4Xks4fbr6_wnGBNU=w@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone else come across this? My TK70 wouldn't eject, and having not
had one before, I didn't know just how tactile the unload button should be.
After further examination and prodding, I determined that the button was
pretty much stuck and refused to come out.

Taking the front off and exposing the board indicated that the button seems
to originally have been rubber, which is now a nice black tarry goo. I
think I can replace the button with a standard tactile push button, this
time without any rubbery material.

Hopefully that's my only issue.

http://i.imgur.com/9Fqb0SB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AxstKpq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PCFCfwH.jpg

Kyle

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep  1 16:48:39 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: VCFMW
Message-ID: <001501d0e4ff$f6bc8dd0$e435a970$@classiccmp.org>

VCFMW is over, and I wanted to give a huge CONGRATS to Jason for the
resulting show that he put on. Most of you will recall it was originally at
Purdue, then was moved to Heron Point (IL). That venue was no longer
available, so Jason scouted out a new venue (Holiday Inn) in Elk Grove
Village, IL. Simply put, the show could not have gone better. The facilities
were top-notch, a fairly good restaurant attached, and it worked out very
well. I - as well as a few others - were extremely grateful for the big
double doors that enter the venue directly from the parking lot (with no
'bumps') for bringing in "big iron", and there was pretty AMPle electrical
service for my HP2000 as well as Ian's 11/23 (and a handful of pdp-8's as
well). Not to mention all the other exhibits. power wasn't a problem. I've
always enjoyed the show at Heron Point, but this year the "bar was raised".
Kudos to Jason!

 

There was of course a substantial commodore and some apple presence, and I
really enjoyed seeing how many of those folks are taking those machines
"into the modern age". My own personal favorite exhibit was DJ's ASR 33
Teletype (a fully working mint condition restoration - GREAT JOB DJ), and
the altair 680 and accessories that were driving it. While that was my
favorite exhibit, every exhibit had something to offer. I like the altoids
can 1802 :)

 

I've been to VCF west, as well as VCF east, and they are both great events.
I personally make a point of getting to VCFMW every year, and look forward
to the event next year. I highly encourage folks that have not been to a
VCFMW yet to give it a shot. Bring something to exhibit, or just take in the
show; enjoy the comradery and meet new folks as well. 

 

Jason - fantastic job, it was a great event!

 

Best,

 

J

 

 


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Sep  1 16:35:44 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 22:35:44 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 01 Sep 2015 16:25:36 -0500"
 <CAKtEYUxXSo47Ae-4nkEyrCLm2aYuM73wpG9jj5=SF8r30mHsJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PQ90EU9BDU0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> No dice...
>
> ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub0:
> %MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read
> ROHIT1$ mount /noassist /system dub0: user01
> %MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read
>

The disk (or less likely the controller) could be faulty but it's more likely
it has media errors in one of the not-good places to have errors :-(

You may be able to MOUNT it /FOREIGN but this will not allow file level access
but it might (with luck) allow it to be backed up with a view to restoring it
onto a working disk.  It may also allow you to $ DUMP DUB0: /BLOCK=START=n
where n is some block number past where the errors are.  Unfortunately, if it's
anything like RD type disks, exercising it may also make it worse.

$ MOUNT /NOWRITE might also be worth trying.

>
> But it did work for DUB1:!
>
> ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub1:
> %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, BACKUP_DISK  mounted on _ROHIT1$DUB1:
>

This has mounted it privately to your process.  If you dismount it and instead:

$ MOUNT /NOASSIST /SYSTEM DUB1 BACKUP_DISK

it will be available to all users.


>
> ROHIT1$ show dev
>
> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free Trans Mnt
>  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt
> R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173103 134   1
> ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
> ROHIT1$DUB1:            Mounted alloc        0  BACKUP_DISK    1404072 1   1
> ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0
>
> I'm not sure exactly which disk is DUC10:, but mount tells me the medium is
> offline.
>

It likely has problems like DUB0 :-(

>
> Still attempting to learn enough VMS to get a directory listing on DUB1:,
> but I'm getting there! Thanks for the tips.
>

Try this:

$ DIR DUB1:[*...] /SIZE /DATE

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  1 17:12:02 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 18:12:02 -0400
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxXSo47Ae-4nkEyrCLm2aYuM73wpG9jj5=SF8r30mHsJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUxXSo47Ae-4nkEyrCLm2aYuM73wpG9jj5=SF8r30mHsJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E622B2.8070407@yahoo.com>

On 9/1/2015 5:25 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ROHIT1$ mount dub0: disk0
>>>> %MOUNT-F-INCVOLLABEL, incorrect volume label
>>>> -MOUNT-I-VOLIDENT, label = 'USER01      ', owner = '            ',
>> format =
>>>> 'DECFILE11B'
>>>>
>>>> I tried giving it the correct label, but it still didn't seem to mount.
>> Now
>>>> I wanted to see if the MSCP server is running:
>>>>
>>>
>>> What happens if you try:
>>>
>>> $ MOUNT /NOASSIST /SYSTEM DUB0: USER01
>>>
>>
>> You could also try this so you don't have to specify the label
>> $ MOUNT /OVER=ID DUB0:
>>
>
> No dice...
>
> ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub0:
> %MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read
> ROHIT1$ mount /noassist /system dub0: user01
> %MOUNT-F-BITMAPERR, I/O error on storage bitmap; volume locked
> -SYSTEM-F-FORCEDERROR, forced error flagged in last sector read
>

Yeah, your disk has got problems. Either an actual hardware problem or a corrupted file system.

The FORCEDERROR flag usually means a hardware problem - bad disk block.  It means reading the disk, the checksum failed and retries did not successfully read the data so the disk controller has flagged the block as bad.  It looks like this has happened in one of the blocks for the storage bitmap that VMS uses in the interal file structure to maork used blocks.  Doing an ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR dub0:  may fix it.  You also may have to initialize the disk and run a bad block checker on it.  Doing this will lose whatever data is on the drive though so try the ANALYZE first.

Look in your VMS documentation in either the System Management Guide or the System Utilities guide. There should be more information in one of those.

> But it did work for DUB1:!
>
> ROHIT1$ mount /over=id dub1:
> %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, BACKUP_DISK  mounted on _ROHIT1$DUB1:
>
> ROHIT1$ show dev
>
> Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free
>   Trans Mnt
>   Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks
> Count Cnt
> R7CY2A$DIA0:            Mounted              0  VMS54_2DISK     173103
> 134   1
> ROHIT1$DUB0:            Online               0
> ROHIT1$DUB1:            Mounted alloc        0  BACKUP_DISK    1404072
> 1   1
> ROHIT1$DUC10:           Online               0
>
> I'm not sure exactly which disk is DUC10:, but mount tells me the medium is
> offline.
>

If the list of hardware in this <http://i.imgur.com/UKOa45R.jpg> is correct, then I'd guess DUC10 is the Maxtor Erasable Optical Disk that's in the top of the cabinet next to the tape drive.

DIA is your internal DSSI bus devices
DUBx are the drives on the Emulex QD34 SMD controller - PUB is the disk controller device.
DUCx are drives on the CMD CQD-223TM controller (tape and disk) - PUC is the disk controller device, PTB is the tape device

The Exabyte tape doesn't seem to be showing, unless that's MUA1, but it says TK70. I can't tell if there is an actual TK70 drive behind that black smoked panel.

> Still attempting to learn enough VMS to get a directory listing on DUB1:,
> but I'm getting there! Thanks for the tips.
>

Directory dub1:[*...] Will show you the whole drive, directory, by directory.
Do a "help directory" at the "$" prompt to get the command qualifiers to show you specific information like owner, protection, file size, file dates


> Kyle
>


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Sep  1 17:12:18 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 23:12:18 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: MicroVAX 3800 DSSI Issues
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 01 Sep 2015 18:12:02 -0400"
 <55E622B2.8070407@yahoo.com>
References: <CAKtEYUwz=v5nL9PtU7CGHfpd7BXGZcVh+0aJPxnLWwMtuLBfMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQ8XULQUOM0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>
 <CAM2UOwJSp6wi+Hs=Q9MsjNygfzxtZACMBQkE64M=ASQgCZSYew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUxXSo47Ae-4nkEyrCLm2aYuM73wpG9jj5=SF8r30mHsJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PQ919YRX4A0084J5@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> Yeah, your disk has got problems. Either an actual hardware problem or a
> corrupted file system.
>
> The FORCEDERROR flag usually means a hardware problem - bad disk block.  It
> means reading the disk, the checksum failed and retries did not successfully
> read the data so the disk controller has flagged the block as bad.  It looks
> like this has happened in one of the blocks for the storage bitmap that VMS
> uses in the interal file structure to maork used blocks.  Doing an
> ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR dub0:  may fix it.  You also may have to initialize
> the disk and run a bad block checker on it.  Doing this will lose whatever
> data is on the drive though so try the ANALYZE first.
>

ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR dub0: requires the disk to be mounted first and the
forced errors on the bitmap likely won't allow that.  It has a better chance of
working if the disk is backed up and restored onto a working disk, possibly an
emulated disk on simh or similar.  ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR is also a very blunt
weapon and when combined with media errors, it could mangle the disk much worse
so it's always a good idea to try it on a copy of the original.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 18:37:51 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:37:51 -0500
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <001501d0e4ff$f6bc8dd0$e435a970$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001501d0e4ff$f6bc8dd0$e435a970$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHxdvWer_Bhcka3JYOew3CC8LxrYSKp-gsiMWxRx4fsyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> VCFMW is over, and I wanted to give a huge CONGRATS to Jason for the
> resulting show that he put on. Most of you will recall it was originally at

Thank you Jay for the kind words.  The check is in the mail, etc.

It was indeed a banner event for our 10th year.  We'll have pics and
video links posted here as they come in:

http://vcfmw.org/past.html

If you have a gallery or video to share and it's not up there, let me know.

There are a few leftover shirts in the S/M/L sizes.  I'll get some
numbers up once they emerge from the car.  There's a pic of the design
on the Shirts page.  We're considering a reprint of the larger sizes
that sold out quickly but we'll need to do quite a few to make it
cost-effective.

Tired and inspired,

-j

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep  1 19:32:45 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  1 Sep 2015 20:32:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VCFMW
Message-ID: <20150902003245.28C4318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jay West

    > Ian's 11/23 

11/34. I know, I know, those blasted PDP-11's; under-foot everywhere! :-)

	Noel

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep  1 19:40:53 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 19:40:53 -0500
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <20150902003245.28C4318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150902003245.28C4318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <009701d0e518$06ba8fd0$142faf70$@classiccmp.org>

Sorry for the typo. I do know the difference, I have several of each ;)

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 7:33 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: VCFMW

    > From: Jay West

    > Ian's 11/23 

11/34. I know, I know, those blasted PDP-11's; under-foot everywhere! :-)

	Noel



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep  1 19:50:15 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 19:50:15 -0500
Subject: Data General Projects
Message-ID: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>

It's time to start on the Data General stuff I've had forever but not yet
restored :) This time much of it has finally made its way into the workshop
so perhaps there will be some progress.

 

Pictures of the initial set of racks to work on are at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 , but there's more DG racks with
devices that can be used at both houses.

 

Trying to decide where to start really, and what pieces to use and what to
trade off (I'm not really familiar with DG stuff, yet).

 

At the least, I know I don't want/need the large FPS (Floating Point Systems
model 100R) box. Anyone have interest in that part?

 

If folks have docs that might help but are private, I'd appreciate a little
access or pointers. My initial questions revolve around what boards from the
Nova 4, S/130, and S/200 can be interchanged if desired, I'm still trying to
decide which cpu to keep and which peripherals. Time to read what docs I
have and scrounge up ones that I don't!

 

I know I got keys with these systems, but don't see them anywhere. The
6021/6023 tape drive uses vacuum columns, that will be fun. The TP1 is an
awfully cool retro printing terminal. The 5821NT terminal has (by a large
margin) the worst screen rot I've ever seen. The 6125 tape drive is in an
odd "desktop" stand like I haven't seen before.

 

Let the fun commence.

 

J

 

 

 

 


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 19:56:03 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 20:56:03 -0400
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com>
 <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>>>  run Unix V1
>>
>> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
>>
> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a wider
> range of devices.

I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.

-ethan

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Sep  1 20:33:39 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 18:33:39 -0700
Subject: Data General Projects
In-Reply-To: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>
References: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E651F3.2070204@bitsavers.org>

On 9/1/15 5:50 PM, Jay West wrote:

>
> At the least, I know I don't want/need the large FPS (Floating Point Systems
> model 100R) box. Anyone have interest in that part?
>

It is the transform processor from a GE CAT scanner. I was just getting around to scanning the drawings
for it.




From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep  1 20:38:00 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 20:38:00 -0500
Subject: Data General Projects
In-Reply-To: <55E651F3.2070204@bitsavers.org>
References: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>
 <55E651F3.2070204@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <00a201d0e520$011bfcf0$0353f6d0$@classiccmp.org>

Al wrote...
-----
It is the transform processor from a GE CAT scanner. I was just getting
around to scanning the drawings for it.
-----
I have never in any device seen a higher density of chips and boards per
square inch. I suspect that if any of the fans fail, it would burst into
flames within 30 seconds. Not to mention that power cable plug is bigger
than two fists held together.

J




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep  1 21:48:37 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 20:48:37 -0600
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <009701d0e518$06ba8fd0$142faf70$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150902003245.28C4318C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <009701d0e518$06ba8fd0$142faf70$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E66385.9060305@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/1/2015 6:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Sorry for the typo. I do know the difference, I have several of each ;)
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 7:33 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: VCFMW
>
>      > From: Jay West
>
>      > Ian's 11/23
>
> 11/34. I know, I know, those blasted PDP-11's; under-foot everywhere! :-)
>
> 	Noel

Send them here, I have none!
Ben, with clean feet.


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep  1 23:19:19 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 23:19:19 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E678C7.8020600@charter.net>

On 9/1/2015 7:56 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>> On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>
>>>>  run Unix V1
>>>
>>> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
>>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
>>>
>> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a wider
>> range of devices.
> 
> I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
> in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.
> 
> -ethan
> 

I suppose. Mini Unix dates from around 1977, though I remember LSX
showing up around 1975 or 1976.

Jay



From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 23:38:02 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 22:38:02 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902,
 and other HP-IB disk drives
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone has dumped the ROMs from the HP 9895 (8-inch) or 82901/82902
(5 1/4-inch) HP-IB disk drives, which use the Amigo command set, I'd
appreciate copies of the images, ideally along with the HP part
numbers of the EPROMs (probably 09895-xxxxx and 82901-xxxxx).

For that matter, I'd be interested in ROM images from any of HP's
other HP-IB disk drives, floppy, hard disk, or combined.

Also ROM images from the 9114A and 9114B HP-IL disk drives. I already
have one ROM image each from the 9114A and 9114B, but there were
multiple firmware versions.

Thanks!
Eric

From chris at mainecoon.com  Tue Sep  1 23:39:23 2015
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 21:39:23 -0700
Subject: Data General Projects
In-Reply-To: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>
References: <009801d0e519$55b17260$01145720$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E67D7B.6090300@mainecoon.com>



On 9/1/15 17:50, Jay West wrote:

> 
> Pictures of the initial set of racks to work on are at
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 , but there's more DG racks with
> devices that can be used at both houses.

Nice.

[snip]

> If folks have docs that might help but are private, I'd appreciate a little
> access or pointers. My initial questions revolve around what boards from the
> Nova 4, S/130, and S/200 can be interchanged if desired, I'm still trying to
> decide which cpu to keep and which peripherals. Time to read what docs I
> have and scrounge up ones that I don't!

Nova I/O bus boards only.  Memory, MMU/MAP, CPU and, if present, FPU
cards are unique to the processor.

The S/130 is one of my favorite 16 bit Eclipses.  The S/200 holds a
special place in my heart at the other end of the spectrum, although
*eventually* DG did get the eight-way interleaved core planes to work in
the thing.  Mostly.

> I know I got keys with these systems, but don't see them anywhere. 

As one might expect, they're all the same.  If you get stuck send up a
flare and I'll find one for you.

> The
> 6021/6023 tape drive uses vacuum columns, that will be fun. The TP1 is an
> awfully cool retro printing terminal. The 5821NT terminal has (by a large
> margin) the worst screen rot I've ever seen. The 6125 tape drive is in an
> odd "desktop" stand like I haven't seen before.

The 6125 is certainly wedged into something odd -- I've never seen one
done that way before.  Unlike the 602X it's a streamer, so it performs
horribly if you can't keep the tape in motion.  The printing Dashers are
actually quite nice terminals, the CRTs are all quite awful -- I think I
have a notch in my hearing from the HV supplies in them.

When you figure out what's surplus to your needs I'd be happy to take
the excess off your hands for appropriate consideration :)

Cheers,
Chris

-- 
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com	AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com	PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  1 23:45:14 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 04:45:14 +0000
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>,
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CB3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
> in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.

Except that the MEM11 wasn't around in 1972.

-tony

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Sep  2 00:07:59 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 22:07:59 -0700
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CB3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CB3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55E6842F.4080908@shiresoft.com>



On 9/1/15 9:45 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
>> in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.
> Except that the MEM11 wasn't around in 1972.
I think the point here, is that much of the hardware that is necessary 
to run Unix V1 on an
11/20 is unobtainium.  Therefor, if one wants to run Unix V1 on 11/20 
hardware, there is
going to be, by necessity, some compromises made.  Witness the previous 
discussion on
the IBM 1620 where the core memory has been replaced with a modern 
equivalent  in order
to allow it to work.  I view this in a similar vein.

I also think that given the historical significance of both Unix V1 and 
the 11/20, this is a
worthwhile endeavor.

TTFN - Guy


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  2 00:10:40 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:10:40 +0000
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E6842F.4080908@shiresoft.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CB3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55E6842F.4080908@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CCC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> >> I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
> >> in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.
> > Except that the MEM11 wasn't around in 1972.
> I think the point here, is that much of the hardware that is necessary
> to run Unix V1 on an
> 11/20 is unobtainium.  Therefor, if one wants to run Unix V1 on 11/20
> hardware, there is

I don't think you are running Unix V1 on 11/20 hardware here. An 11/20 CPU,
sure, but a computer system is not just the CPU.

> going to be, by necessity, some compromises made.  Witness the previous

Remaking the missing hardware following the original designs and using technology
close to the original is one thing. A functional emulator is something quite different. 
The 11/20 in 1972 did not (AFAIK) use any programmable logic chips, for example.

> discussion on
> the IBM 1620 where the core memory has been replaced with a modern
> equivalent  in order
> to allow it to work.  I view this in a similar vein.

So do I. 

-tony

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Tue Sep  1 13:27:52 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 14:27:52 -0400
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2B6A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjNtU9HijOdn=B8TN_6mKxG2niESWFFYviGYbuyfNx-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2B6A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <178038EF-88CD-4C5D-9949-B42C8C190527@gmail.com>



On Sep 1, 2015, at 1:57 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> 
>> Hmm, you are right, I am not seeing any spikes in voltage there. On
>> the collector of the TR23 all I am getting as DC voltage is around
>> 110mV. The oscilloscope tells me I am getting Vpp of about 4.4V with
>> Vmax at 2.6V and Vmin at -1.8V and an average of 105mV (which matches
>> what my multimeter tells me too).
>> 
>> That sounds too low doesn't it?
> 
> That is far too low. 
> 
> Firstly, there should be a 12V or so feed to one pin on the flyback primary
> winding (the winding that links to the collector of TR23). Is that present and 
> correct?

Yes it is. I am getting 15V on pin 4 that connects to the collector of TR23.
> What about other components connected to that winding.
There is a diode and a capacitor. They both measure 300mV or so. The diode seems to be working. I will desolder one leg of the capacitor and check it too. I do not have an ESR meter so I will do normal checking.

> 
> Are you sure TR23 is good. The horizontal output transistor in many monitors
> often fails.
I am not sure. I assume I have to desolder it to check it right?

Regards,
Vlad
> 
> -tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  1 13:56:08 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 18:56:08 +0000
Subject: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151
In-Reply-To: <178038EF-88CD-4C5D-9949-B42C8C190527@gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPg-=QgERUQLQMi_zZGn0J6fXicOsTZBs7Qp0avy=V6yog@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2643@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <70B1D8D9-FDDB-4FC6-930F-5ABBF7A2A01D@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2790@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPh6MDq7mmGCoVKNcyyGrrX8n19sLG8iAKUgYA-fDK=bKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D281C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPiL=89YnteEMxKWv9vuV92oWP2tU57q8BjzU7Yuze56ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2A44@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjqTuCNGsdKQ43nkeHbK1NoTfuNsneV7MugdE7-FOgBNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2AD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CADgrRPjNtU9HijOdn=B8TN_6mKxG2niESWFFYviGYbuyfNx-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2B6A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <178038EF-88CD-4C5D-9949-B42C8C190527@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2B98@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > Are you sure TR23 is good. The horizontal output transistor in many monitors
> > often fails.
> I am not sure. I assume I have to desolder it to check it right?

Yes, but it's only 3 connections to desolder.

Obviously if the 2 junctions don't test properly as diodes, or if the Hfe is much lower
than it should be then the transistor is dead. But due to the high voltages that should
be around, most transistor testers don't do adequate testing of such transistors. 

-tony

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 00:18:00 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 22:18:00 -0700
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CCC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CB3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55E6842F.4080908@shiresoft.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2CCC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55E68688.6050009@gmail.com>



On 9/1/15 10:10 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>>> I could, but the point is to run 1972 Unix on machine that was around
>>>> in 1972, even if I have emulate things like the RF disks.
>>> Except that the MEM11 wasn't around in 1972.
>> I think the point here, is that much of the hardware that is necessary
>> to run Unix V1 on an
>> 11/20 is unobtainium.  Therefor, if one wants to run Unix V1 on 11/20
>> hardware, there is
> I don't think you are running Unix V1 on 11/20 hardware here. An 11/20 CPU,
> sure, but a computer system is not just the CPU.
>
>> going to be, by necessity, some compromises made.  Witness the previous
> Remaking the missing hardware following the original designs and using technology
> close to the original is one thing. A functional emulator is something quite different.
> The 11/20 in 1972 did not (AFAIK) use any programmable logic chips, for example.

Do let me know when you've got a production line going for a new RS11.  
Until then, I suppose the MEM11 will have to do...

- Josh



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep  2 06:56:47 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 2015 07:56:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

A lengthy, and pleasant visit with Paul A, post-VCFMW (BTW, belated congrats
on that, Jason - I don't know where my brain was last night - fried from the
long drive yesterday, probably), has produced a number of missing PDP-11
FMPS's!

Most importantly, we now have the 11/73 prints, which I will be scanning Real
Soon Now. (So now I can have a crack at fixing all the broken ones I have! :-)
That does leave us needing the 11/83/84 CPU prints, so if anyone has a set...

I also found prints for the MF11-U, MF11-W, and MM11-Y; none of which appear
to be on-line (although the MF11-U ones might be in the 11/05S print set,
which ISTR is online). So I'll have a lot of scanning to do when I get home.
The reason for this message is to ask if anyone has a special need for any in
particular; if so, I will move those to the head of the list for scanning.


I don't think the ME11-L prints are online either, but those I have in my
11/05 print set - I'll have to see if that print set is online somewhere, no
point re-scanning them, if so.

There are a number of things like that (e.g. the H786 power supply for the
BA11-N; not available separately, but in the 11/23 FMPS, if you know to look
there): we ought to produce some sort of registry, to collect such information
in one place.

       Noel

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 07:04:40 2015
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 13:04:40 +0100
Subject: Multitech MicroProfessor
Message-ID: <CAGix5N=48RCtrvKFcb5eMW4T1F-soZdWqdNwYBM6fHRDtdV8+A@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

Possibly a long shot since I think the MPF was only a UK/Europe thing but
I'll quite happily be proved wrong. I've had a chap asking for a scan of
one of my manuals that would necessitate partial destruction. Anyone got
the IOM-MPF manual? It's a 6k RAM expansion board for the MicroProfessor
MPF-1P seen on my site here:
http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/multitech/iom-mpf.php

(Ironically today I'm working in a building that has a proper book scanner,
but all the staff that operated it were 'let go' earlier this year)

Cheers

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 07:27:10 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:27:10 -0400
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB
 disk drives
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADgrRPg2rme2Dronk=3bOMf_GPmd-DTyYdyq50TKrCy3eVYLkw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Eric,

I have a 9121 HP-IB disk drive I can try to extract the ROM from
(using an old EEPROM programmer I have).

Regards,
Vlad.

On 2 September 2015 at 00:38, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> If anyone has dumped the ROMs from the HP 9895 (8-inch) or 82901/82902
> (5 1/4-inch) HP-IB disk drives, which use the Amigo command set, I'd
> appreciate copies of the images, ideally along with the HP part
> numbers of the EPROMs (probably 09895-xxxxx and 82901-xxxxx).
>
> For that matter, I'd be interested in ROM images from any of HP's
> other HP-IB disk drives, floppy, hard disk, or combined.
>
> Also ROM images from the 9114A and 9114B HP-IL disk drives. I already
> have one ROM image each from the 9114A and 9114B, but there were
> multiple firmware versions.
>
> Thanks!
> Eric

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 09:00:13 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:00:13 -0400
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902,
 and other HP-IB disk drives
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <443AD1DFD5BB493CAC459EA709082BA8@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 12:38 AM


> ...I'd be interested in ...ROM images from the 
> 9114A and 9114B HP-IL disk drives. I already
> have one ROM image each from the 9114A and 
> 9114B, but there were
> multiple firmware versions.
>
> Thanks!
> Eric

----- Reply -----

The ROMs in my 9114s are 09114-15514 REV R.

Need an image? What type/size are they?

m 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  2 09:20:36 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 14:20:36 +0000
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB
 disk drives
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2D1E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> If anyone has dumped the ROMs from the HP 9895 (8-inch) or 82901/82902
> (5 1/4-inch) HP-IB disk drives, which use the Amigo command set, I'd
> appreciate copies of the images, ideally along with the HP part
> numbers of the EPROMs (probably 09895-xxxxx and 82901-xxxxx).

I have (I hope) an 82901 somewhere. Somewhere could mean in one of the spare
rooms here, it could mean in my storage unit (which is harder for me to get it from).
I hope it wasn't something that was 'lost' in the move. 

According to the schematic I traced out, it contains a pair of 2K ROMs, I think
pinout as 2716. Numbers 1818-1834 and 1818-1835. The 1818-1834 is the top
of the memory space, 1818-1835 just below it (6802 processor so it reads the 
reset vector from the top of its address space).

Do you want me to try to find it and dump the ROMs? 

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  2 09:37:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 14:37:12 +0000
Subject: Multitech MicroProfessor
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5N=48RCtrvKFcb5eMW4T1F-soZdWqdNwYBM6fHRDtdV8+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5N=48RCtrvKFcb5eMW4T1F-soZdWqdNwYBM6fHRDtdV8+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2D49@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Folks,
> 
> Possibly a long shot since I think the MPF was only a UK/Europe thing but
> I'll quite happily be proved wrong. I've had a chap asking for a scan of
> one of my manuals that would necessitate partial destruction. Anyone got

I can't believe the manual is all that thick. Could you take a good quality photo
of each page, say with the camera on a copying stand? I think that could be done
without unbinding the manual.

An even longer shot : Does anyone have dumps of the BASIC and FORTH 
ROMs for the MPF1-88 (the 8088 based one)?

-tony



From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Sep  2 10:14:02 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:14:02 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX9BY1KOmFDttq4ui6JL+q4qGPqN1F+jKhF0XTkPeE7Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <A64ABEC6-1E63-4A33-8E55-5E5A1585E47F@pski.net>
 <CAL9NafHqqvTWsw0-yHCEBA=bgKk+eVfM9Pt+EZ9zwb6xWrkgtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5A956.2080302@btinternet.com> <020c01d0e4ca$06a7eea0$13f7cbe0$@net>
 <55E5D7B0.5010807@btinternet.com>
 <CAA43vkX9BY1KOmFDttq4ui6JL+q4qGPqN1F+jKhF0XTkPeE7Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401d0e592$01b9bcc0$052d3640$@net>

> I don't know how uptight your place of employment is (or if you're
> retired) but if you're friendly with the dockmaster or mail room staff
> at your office building, it can be worth having a little chat with them
> to see if you can just arrange to have palletized freight shipped to
> your office;

Sean,

You can say I am very friendly with my work - unfortunately we do not have a dock. So no go there. Delivering there does have it be a bit cheaper (business vs. residential) but not by much.

-Ali


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Sep  2 10:14:02 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:14:02 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <bdb2b0e98b4f96020a078cca0ef6505d.squirrel@www.solomonson.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <bdb2b0e98b4f96020a078cca0ef6505d.squirrel@www.solomonson.net>
Message-ID: <001501d0e592$01e20540$05a60fc0$@net>

> shipped from Kentucky to Minnesota for $200. Fastenal has stores all
> over the U.S. and daily freight deliveries. They take on other freight
> when room is available. You are responsible for crating the item and
> placing on a pallet. I think my last delivery took about a week to
> complete. Their stores are equipped with loading docks and forklifts so
> it is rather convenient. You can go their website and see if they have
> service for your area and get a quote:
> https://www.fastenal.com/en/22/third-party-logistics-(3pl)

Craig,

Thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately Fastenal is experiencing "high
volumes on their west" lanes so no go....

-Ali


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Sep  2 10:14:02 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:14:02 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <55E5D0F2.9070405@jwsss.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net> <55E5D0F2.9070405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <001301d0e592$018d0770$04a71650$@net>

> If you can get it palletized and delivered to a freight terminal at the
> far end, and want to save a buck on the shipping and control that
> youself, look for a "Less than load" quote from the larger lines, like
> YRC and ABF and the like.  At your end you will get the unit at the
> nearest freight terminal for the line you choose.  I have a google maps
> link to one in Orange California I've used.  They won't hold your
> delivery there long, but there are usually ways to get a pallet either
> onto another dock high vehicle, they frequently have a pickup truck
> high dock, or the will have ramps down to ground level you can go to
> and load onto a lift gate truck, or whatever.
> 

Jim,

Thanks for the excellent info. I checked with a few people and interestingly
the biggest saving came from Craters and Freighters - $300 if the seller
drops it off with them. Surprisingly no savings if I were to pickup myself
or have them deliver it with a lift gate truck to my residence. So they are
my backup especially if I cannot get the seller to pack this thing properly.
He is hesitant to do it which I understand so I am going to check a few more
prices today and tomorrow and if nothing else at least I have options...


From js at cimmeri.com  Wed Sep  2 10:42:22 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:42:22 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E678C7.8020600@charter.net>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E678C7.8020600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <55E718DE.8010402@cimmeri.com>



On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:

> On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>   run Unix V1
>> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
>>
> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a wider range of devices.

Very interesting.  Does Guy's MEM11 provide what's needed for Mini Unix without having to write special drivers?

- John


From bcoleman3 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 09:21:55 2015
From: bcoleman3 at hotmail.com (b coleman)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:21:55 -0400
Subject: Data General 6050 Cartridge Disk Drive
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1441126800.65060.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1441126800.65060.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <COL131-W722FCECD8867A31BC329BCF9690@phx.gbl>

I know this is a pretty long shot, but does anyone happen to have any service or maintenance manuals on the DG 6050 disk drive that have a procedure for adjusting the servo control circuit board? Or does anyone know anything about doing this? Thanks
 		 	   		  

From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com  Wed Sep  2 09:35:55 2015
From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:35:55 -0600
Subject: Data General 6050 Cartridge Disk Drive
In-Reply-To: <COL131-W722FCECD8867A31BC329BCF9690@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.3.1441126800.65060.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <COL131-W722FCECD8867A31BC329BCF9690@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55E7094B.6040205@Wild-Hare.com>

I will contact you off-list..


Bruce Ray
Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc.
bkr at WildHareComputers.com


On 9/2/2015 8:21 AM, b coleman wrote:
> I know this is a pretty long shot, but does anyone happen to have any service or maintenance manuals on the DG 6050 disk drive that have a procedure for adjusting the servo control circuit board? Or does anyone know anything about doing this? Thanks
>   		 	   		
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Sep  2 12:50:18 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:50:18 -0700
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E718DE.8010402@cimmeri.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E678C7.8020600@charter.net> <55E718DE.8010402@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <55E736DA.5040104@shiresoft.com>



On 9/2/15 8:42 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:
>
>> On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>>   run Unix V1
>>> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
>>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
>>>
>> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a 
>> wider range of devices.
>
> Very interesting.  Does Guy's MEM11 provide what's needed for Mini 
> Unix without having to write special drivers?
>
Not sure what Mini-Unix requires w.r.t. devices.

TTFN - Guy


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Sep  2 13:22:02 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 20:22:02 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
Message-ID: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>

Since the capacity of 2x RF31 and 1x RF71 disks is a little bit low
for VMS with some compilersi (~400MB every disk), I've looked for a bigger
disk, at least for the sytem itself. (I've already relocated the pagefile
to the 2nd disk).
Ok, there are RF73 available at ebay US for $100, but addiotional $50 and more
for shipping is to much, I have to pay additional 19% of customs VAT on top
of the sum from disk+shipping.. Maybe there are people that think that this
prices are ok, but not me, not for an old 2GB disk for an computer with
that power consumtion and that computing "power"..
In the case there is someone in europe that want to give away such a disk
for an acceptable price, please mail me..

Luckily an old friend of mine found 2 Disks in his stock, another RF31 (not
tried jet) and an RF73.
I've changed now the working but still almost empty RF71 in my VAX4000-300
against that RF73 disk and tried to integrate it to the system.
It starts with all LEDs on (as the other do), begins to rattle a little
with the head assembly (as the others do) but stops then and begins to
reposition somewhere in 0.5s cycles. It never finishes doing that, it is
not going to ready. The ready led is blinking for a short time after every
0,5s cycle. I've tried to talk with the disk using the KA670 Firmware
with set host/dup/dssi/bus:0 2, PARAMS is working and STATUS is responding,
the displayed last failure was 3304(X) and I don't know what that could be..

All other commands do work, but they are aborted since the disk is busy.

The available RF72DUG8 gives the hint that the error codes are listed in
the service manuals, but it seems that those manuals aren't available
somewhere.

What could the error be? Is the disk dead?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From js at cimmeri.com  Wed Sep  2 13:33:23 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:33:23 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
In-Reply-To: <55E736DA.5040104@shiresoft.com>
References: <55E28F20.5020505@shiresoft.com>
 <007901d0e2e2$fe335e50$fa9a1af0$@sc.rr.com> <55E29DCE.5010801@shiresoft.com>
 <CAALmimk11ekNmRz2Xyf=JyjTdKCZAZ6QJuXYT7dLvJrXik+k_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E5C6B1.7050606@charter.net>
 <CAALmim=5MsAgw+OPqNvKiSpdpyf2eh7Q2dSH-3gDVb6FY6aJTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E678C7.8020600@charter.net> <55E718DE.8010402@cimmeri.com>
 <55E736DA.5040104@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <55E740F3.20302@cimmeri.com>


>>>>>   run Unix V1
>>>> I am very interested in the MEM11 
>>>> for this exact reason.  I have a
>>>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this 
>>>> with.  [Ethan Dicks]
>>>>
>>> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 
>>> 11/20, which might support a wider 
>>> range of devices.  [Jay Jaeger]
>>
>> Very interesting.  Does Guy's MEM11 
>> provide what's needed for Mini Unix 
>> without having to write special 
>> drivers?  [John S.]
>>
> Not sure what Mini-Unix requires 
> w.r.t. devices.
>
> TTFN - Guy

I think Jay might know, but I copied and 
pasted the following paragraphs from 
some info I collected on Mini Unix:


"The normal configuration for MX 
includes a PDP-11/10 CPU with 28K words 
of memory and two RK05 disk cartridges 
for secondary. The PDP-11/10 processor 
is slower than the PDP-11/40 processor 
and does not have the full instruction 
set of the PDP-11/40 processor, thus 
requiring the emulation of the missing 
instructions. A typical C compilation 
requires about twice the total time of 
that required on the equivalent 
PDP-11/40 configuration. However, 
response to the editor commands is not 
significantly longer than on a more 
powerful CPU. The cost of a minimum 
configuration:

     PDP-11/10 CPU
     28K words memory
     2 RK05 disk drives
     KL11 interface to control console
     DL11E interface to dial-up line
     60 cycle clock

is of the order of $20,000 at today's 
prices (December 1976). This provides an 
inexpensive tool for software 
development in a UNIX time-sharing 
environment for those configurations 
which have insufficient hardware to 
support a full Version 6 UNIX system."



"The MINI-UNIX system runs on any PDP-11 
processor with 28K words of memory. The 
PDP-11 computer is a 16-bit word 
mini-computer with a UNIBUS for 
interfacing DEC peripherals to the CPU. 
The typical configuration consists of a 
PDP-11/10 CPU with 28K words of memory, 
a console terminal and an RK05 
moving-head disk controller with two 
removable disk cartridges for swapping 
and file system storage. Each RK05 disk 
pack has 2.5 Megabytes (8-bit byte) of 
storage. However, the MX system also 
supports the RF fixed-head disk (1 
Megabyte) and the RP03 and RP04 
moving-head disk controllers with 40M 
bytes and 80M bytes, respectively. Other 
peripherals supported include 
line-printer, Dectape, magtape and 
various asynchronous and synchronous 
interface units.

The system is normally configured to be 
12K words in size. This includes an 
emulation package for interpreting the 
10 extended instructions normally 
performed by the EIS hardware available 
as an option on some PDP-11 processors 
and standard on the PDP-11/45 processor. 
A minimum system has room for 6 or 7 
system buffers. As new drivers are added 
to the system, the number of system 
buffers must be decreased if the system 
size is maintained at 12K words. Thus it 
is recommended that for some 
applications it may be appropriate to 
add the drivers for only a few 
peripherals on any one version of the 
system and thus maintain a few versions 
of the system, one for each set of 
drivers desired concurrently in the 
system. This keeps the system size at 
12K words in order to be able to support 
all of the user software of Version 6 UNIX."





From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:53:26 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 12:53:26 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB
 disk drives
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2D1E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2D1E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTC2FiL7OK2-KRzWL-cn3JCLam-Bn0=mJn-OEzJD4=orw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:20 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I have (I hope) an 82901 somewhere. Somewhere could mean in one of the spare
[...]
> Do you want me to try to find it and dump the ROMs?

Yes, please. If you can find it fairly easily, that will be great.

Best regards,
Eric

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  2 14:03:10 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:03:10 +0000
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB
 disk drives
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTC2FiL7OK2-KRzWL-cn3JCLam-Bn0=mJn-OEzJD4=orw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2D1E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CAFrGgTTC2FiL7OK2-KRzWL-cn3JCLam-Bn0=mJn-OEzJD4=orw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2DB6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> > I have (I hope) an 82901 somewhere. Somewhere could mean in one of the spare
> [...]
> > Do you want me to try to find it and dump the ROMs?
> 
> Yes, please. If you can find it fairly easily, that will be great.

Hopefully it's in a visible pile here. I do know where my EPROM programmer
is :-)

(Never move house unless you really can't avoid it!)

-tony

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 14:50:50 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 13:50:50 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB
 disk drives
In-Reply-To: <443AD1DFD5BB493CAC459EA709082BA8@310e2>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <443AD1DFD5BB493CAC459EA709082BA8@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTROa+f=-zMJrpe0va4JWvnpgpGRMT=bAoTCGqeDVx6iAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> The ROMs in my 9114s are 09114-15514 REV R.
> Need an image? What type/size are they?

There 27128 (16KB).

There are at least five known ROM images for the 9114A/B, and I have
images of two of them.  I'm not sure whether 09114-15514 Rev R matches
one that I already have.  If you don't mind dumping it, that will be
appreciated.  After I've collected a few of these, I'll put them up on
a web page and post the URL to the list, in case anyone else needs
them.

John R. Baker established a precedent for using the contents of the
first two bytes to identify the 9114 firmware revision; I don't know
with certainty that that actually uniquely identifies all revisions.

John wrote an HP-71B program to read the first two bytes over HP-IL.
It should be possible to read the entire contents over HP-IL, but I've
found it easy to pull the EPROM and read it with an EPROM programmer.

John identified five firmware versions:

09114-15514A  first two bytes 80 a7  - from 9114A
09114-15514B  first two bytes ad fc   - probably from 9114A
09114-15515    first two bytes d8 b1   - not sure which model
09114-15516    first two bytes da dc   - not sure which model
09114-15521    first two bytes 10 8d   - from 9114B

I have images whose first two bytes match the -15514A and -15521,
courtesy of another list member, though I don't know the exact HP P/Ns
that were on the labels. The -15514 image I have has the first two
bytes 80 a7, matching the -15514A in John's list, and has a checksum
(sum of all the bytes, modulo 64K) of 81ce.  The -15521 image I have
matches the one in John's list, and has a checksum of 112a.

Some years ago I did a fair bit of study of a disassembly of a 9114A
ROM image, but unfortunately seem to have misplaced the results. I'm
not sure whether I'll do it again.  IIRC it had a few more DDT and DDL
commands than were defined in the Filbert (82161A tape drive) command
set, and it also had an entirely different command set which I later
found out was SS/80, for use by the HP 110 Portable and Portable Plus.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  2 15:13:34 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:13:34 -0500
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902,
 and other HP-IB disk drives
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTROa+f=-zMJrpe0va4JWvnpgpGRMT=bAoTCGqeDVx6iAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <443AD1DFD5BB493CAC459EA709082BA8@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTROa+f=-zMJrpe0va4JWvnpgpGRMT=bAoTCGqeDVx6iAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301d0e5bb$d8c72800$8a557800$@classiccmp.org>

For drives of that general ilk.... I have:
9121
9122
9144
7957

Let me know if these would be of use.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 2:51 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB disk drives

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> The ROMs in my 9114s are 09114-15514 REV R.
> Need an image? What type/size are they?

There 27128 (16KB).

There are at least five known ROM images for the 9114A/B, and I have images of two of them.  I'm not sure whether 09114-15514 Rev R matches one that I already have.  If you don't mind dumping it, that will be appreciated.  After I've collected a few of these, I'll put them up on a web page and post the URL to the list, in case anyone else needs them.

John R. Baker established a precedent for using the contents of the first two bytes to identify the 9114 firmware revision; I don't know with certainty that that actually uniquely identifies all revisions.

John wrote an HP-71B program to read the first two bytes over HP-IL.
It should be possible to read the entire contents over HP-IL, but I've found it easy to pull the EPROM and read it with an EPROM programmer.

John identified five firmware versions:

09114-15514A  first two bytes 80 a7  - from 9114A
09114-15514B  first two bytes ad fc   - probably from 9114A
09114-15515    first two bytes d8 b1   - not sure which model
09114-15516    first two bytes da dc   - not sure which model
09114-15521    first two bytes 10 8d   - from 9114B

I have images whose first two bytes match the -15514A and -15521, courtesy of another list member, though I don't know the exact HP P/Ns that were on the labels. The -15514 image I have has the first two bytes 80 a7, matching the -15514A in John's list, and has a checksum (sum of all the bytes, modulo 64K) of 81ce.  The -15521 image I have matches the one in John's list, and has a checksum of 112a.

Some years ago I did a fair bit of study of a disassembly of a 9114A ROM image, but unfortunately seem to have misplaced the results. I'm not sure whether I'll do it again.  IIRC it had a few more DDT and DDL commands than were defined in the Filbert (82161A tape drive) command set, and it also had an entirely different command set which I later found out was SS/80, for use by the HP 110 Portable and Portable Plus.



From kylevowen at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 15:14:50 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:14:50 -0500
Subject: TK70 sticky unload button?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxDSm9GBTst-P6hLN=EpAJGERUN4Xks4fbr6_wnGBNU=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxDSm9GBTst-P6hLN=EpAJGERUN4Xks4fbr6_wnGBNU=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzN3WSXReQn=kdZrww2mn98P_DSqO2nK5n9AbanPUoV_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I fixed the button (replaced it with a standard push button), but it still
doesn't want to eject my TK50 tape I put in. Blinks all three LEDs. It
looks relatively dust-free inside. I may can get some canned air and blow
it out better, but besides that, is there any more debugging I can do, even
from the >>> prompt or VMS? I can get a video showing the tape motion.
Seems to load without issue, but it doesn't really start winding back upon
pressing the unload button.

Thanks,

Kyle

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Sep  2 15:20:20 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 21:20:20 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: TK70 sticky unload button?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:14:50 -0500"
 <CAKtEYUzN3WSXReQn=kdZrww2mn98P_DSqO2nK5n9AbanPUoV_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUxDSm9GBTst-P6hLN=EpAJGERUN4Xks4fbr6_wnGBNU=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PQABOBGTUG007JZX@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I fixed the button (replaced it with a standard push button), but it still
> doesn't want to eject my TK50 tape I put in. Blinks all three LEDs. It
> looks relatively dust-free inside. I may can get some canned air and blow
> it out better, but besides that, is there any more debugging I can do, even
> from the >>> prompt or VMS? I can get a video showing the tape motion.
> Seems to load without issue, but it doesn't really start winding back upon
> pressing the unload button.
>

If the tape has data on it, is is most likely in VMS BACKUP format.  You may
be able to list the contents with something like:

$ BACKUP /NOASSIST /LIST MUA0: /REWIND

You might be able to unload the tape with:

$ DISMOUNT /UNLOAD MUA0:

but you would have to successfully mount it first, either explicitly with
something like:

$ MOUNT /NOASSIST /FOREIGN MUA0:

or implicitly by using the BACKUP /LIST command above.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Wed Sep  2 15:37:05 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:37:05 -0500
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
Message-ID: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>

I just installed Kyle Owen's Serial Disk Server on my 8/A (at high speed via 
an Omni-USB card I got from Philipp Hachtmann).
There was a bit of a learning curve for me since I've never used any *nix 
programs before, or heard of Cygwin...

But Kyle was very helpful, exchanging several emails this afternoon and it 
only took me a couple of hours to get everything figured out, up and 
running.
It even comes with the indispensable diagpack2.rk05 OS/8 image already 
embedded in the .zip file, and it's now running on the real hardware.
Haven't tried uploading anything yet but I'm sure that will work too!

NOW maybe I can get my RL02 controller card (and the rest of the hardware, 
the power supply has started glitching again) debugged.
Many thanks to Kyle for creating this very useful software :)

-Charles


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  2 15:39:40 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:39:40 -0500
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>

Charles wrote...
-------
I just installed Kyle Owen's Serial Disk Server on my 8/A (at high speed via
an Omni-USB card I got from Philipp Hachtmann).
-------

Yeah, I've been meaning to get one of those omni-usb cards. Googling for the
link.....

J



From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:23:42 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 21:23:42 +0300
Subject: IBM 1620
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueGqPeBhVmqPBBWh4N0_K7o_kXJHp8HBGsjJGuthQ8bjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com>,
 <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <CABGJBueGqPeBhVmqPBBWh4N0_K7o_kXJHp8HBGsjJGuthQ8bjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB113-W138809FC741613E2463DAB4CB690@phx.gbl>










One more 1620 can be found here in Finland, Kanavuori computer museum (...or cave, computers are stored in militarys old cave...here government is not that excited to support these kind of "hobbies", so that's why computers are not proper display at the moment...) This place is located around 250km away from Helsinki, very near of Jyv?skyl?. But I'm 110% sure it is not for sale, these guys have same goal as I have; try to preserve Finnish computer history.
Here some crappy phone camera photos their collection, I'll take better with my SLR camera soon as I visit there again.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NG9EUEFKNWZTRlk

There is jaw dropping stuff like Zuse, RAMAC, U-Link, Data Saab, GE Bull...also there is another 1800 with Finnish origins!

- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/



> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:59:52 -0400
> Subject: Re: IBM 1620
> From: billdegnan at gmail.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
> How many exist on Earth at this point?
> 
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
> >>
> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
> >>
> >> Kevin Tikker
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
> > new. Good luck Digging for one.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bill
> vintagecomputer.net



 		 	   		  

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 15:20:18 2015
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 16:20:18 -0400
Subject: Programming & L. Carroll
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9aaELxCoRNq_7ZOb-Q=24csOqB-iHHUhrtyJYCDzFEVA@mail.gmail.com>

This is off topic, so-to-say, but computer languages can be esoteric:
It's the 150 anniversay of  L. Carroll's "Alice's Adventures in
Wonderland." May I dare say most people, including myself here(I
studied languages like BASIC, COBOL & PL/C, know very little about the
programming languages that make old & new computers do what we wish
looking backwards? Logic, like "Alice's...", can elude us at any
time...

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 15:48:56 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:48:56 -0500
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxsN8X3s8heaCJqps1hNsiJ_Ds0HhPyNhLepk6MC1T2Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Charles <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net>
wrote:
>
> Many thanks to Kyle for creating this very useful software :)


You're most certainly welcome, Charles! I think you must be the...eighth
person worldwide to find it useful! :)

I am going to push another release soon fixing some interrupt issues. The
handler is about as tiny as I can get it, with just a few locations to
spare. Trying to keep it single page.

The server itself seems stable, but Crawford G. is working on a
microcontroller variant should we eventually want to make a board with an
SD card and such built in. Eliminates the whole Linux computer aspect to
make it that much more realistic. Then someone can port it to a 6120 or T11
and be extra awesome.

Kyle

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  2 15:57:54 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:57:54 -0500
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>

Aaaaand the online store is apparently "down for maintenance" :\

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 3:40 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A

Charles wrote...
-------
I just installed Kyle Owen's Serial Disk Server on my 8/A (at high speed via
an Omni-USB card I got from Philipp Hachtmann).
-------

Yeah, I've been meaning to get one of those omni-usb cards. Googling for the
link.....

J




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Sep  2 16:22:55 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 15:22:55 -0600
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>
 <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E768AF.2030204@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/2/2015 2:57 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Aaaaand the online store is apparently "down for maintenance" :\
>
Better than a DEAD link.
Ben.
Nothing like a device with more transistors than the MAIN FRAME 8.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep  2 16:59:12 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 14:59:12 -0700
Subject: KV-S3065CW scanners
Message-ID: <55E77130.3010104@bitsavers.org>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201392632552

this is a good deal if the paper path isn't scratched up in them.

the CW model has a 11" width feed and can scan a sheet 6 feet long.

these are the ones I've been using for 5+ years

just don't need any more right now


From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 18:27:48 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 16:27:48 -0700
Subject: KV-S3065CW scanners
In-Reply-To: <55E77130.3010104@bitsavers.org>
References: <55E77130.3010104@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZoQYQ80Z=R1H88T+CHDPSkk_HNyf3_xTWdKuYtGrCFrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201392632552
>
> this is a good deal if the paper path isn't scratched up in them.
>
> the CW model has a 11" width feed and can scan a sheet 6 feet long.
>
> these are the ones I've been using for 5+ years
>
> just don't need any more right now
>
>
Thanks, Al -- I snagged this.  I've got a ton of stuff that's built up over
the years that needs to be scanned, and I'd rather not pester other people
to do it...

- Josh

From shumaker at att.net  Wed Sep  2 20:14:32 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:14:32 -0700
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55E79EF8.50906@att.net>

On 9/2/2015 4:56 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> A lengthy, and pleasant visit with Paul A, post-VCFMW (BTW, belated congrats
> on that, Jason - I don't know where my brain was last night - fried from the
> long drive yesterday, probably), has produced a number of missing PDP-11
> FMPS's!
>
> Most importantly, we now have the 11/73 prints, which I will be scanning Real
> Soon Now. (So now I can have a crack at fixing all the broken ones I have! :-)
> That does leave us needing the 11/83/84 CPU prints, so if anyone has a set...
>
> I also found prints for the MF11-U, MF11-W, and MM11-Y; none of which appear
> to be on-line (although the MF11-U ones might be in the 11/05S print set,
> which ISTR is online). So I'll have a lot of scanning to do when I get home.
> The reason for this message is to ask if anyone has a special need for any in
> particular; if so, I will move those to the head of the list for scanning.
>
>
> I don't think the ME11-L prints are online either, but those I have in my
> 11/05 print set - I'll have to see if that print set is online somewhere, no
> point re-scanning them, if so.
>
> There are a number of things like that (e.g. the H786 power supply for the
> BA11-N; not available separately, but in the 11/23 FMPS, if you know to look
> there): we ought to produce some sort of registry, to collect such information
> in one place.
>
>         Noel
>
>    
"FMPS" is.....?    "_ _  print set"?


steve

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep  2 20:31:35 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 2015 21:31:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150903013135.D0B2618C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: steve shumaker

    > "FMPS" is.....?    "_ _  print set"?

"Field Maintainance Print Set".

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep  2 21:11:08 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 19:11:08 -0700
Subject: KV-S3065CW scanners
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZoQYQ80Z=R1H88T+CHDPSkk_HNyf3_xTWdKuYtGrCFrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E77130.3010104@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLZoQYQ80Z=R1H88T+CHDPSkk_HNyf3_xTWdKuYtGrCFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E7AC3C.1070004@bitsavers.org>

On 9/2/15 4:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> Thanks, Al -- I snagged this.

good! they're great scanners, especially for HP and Tek manuals with the long foldouts





From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 21:59:32 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:59:32 -0700
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1441213200.37529.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1441213200.37529.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <AA689510-B958-4A60-9A19-B7ABC5D3534C@gmail.com>

I wanted to extend my thanks to the organizers of this event, and to Jay in particular who showed me the way around bringing up a cantankerous HP 1000 E system in real time, and somehow never got tired of my newbee questions. 
And the Chinon FR-506 5.25" drive that I picked up there for a very reasonable price, unlike the one I had bothered you about in a previous thread, actually works! 
All in all a very worthwhile way to spend award mileage on a trip from California to Chicago...
Marc

> From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: VCFMW
> 
> VCFMW is over, and I wanted to give a huge CONGRATS to Jason for the
> resulting show that he put on [...]
> 
> J

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 22:07:10 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 22:07:10 -0500
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <AA689510-B958-4A60-9A19-B7ABC5D3534C@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1441213200.37529.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <AA689510-B958-4A60-9A19-B7ABC5D3534C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHVU6e=sWn+J1u6_GGh5_v8FrdJYo4cVf6gvXEHPty8rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wanted to extend my thanks to the organizers of this event, and to Jay in particular who showed me the way around bringing up a cantankerous HP 1000 E system in real time, and somehow never got tired of my newbee questions.
> And the Chinon FR-506 5.25" drive that I picked up there for a very reasonable price, unlike the one I had bothered you about in a previous thread, actually works!
> All in all a very worthwhile way to spend award mileage on a trip from California to Chicago...

Indeed, my basket-case HP1000E was, if not fixed, assessed and put on
its way to good health by a pro HP fixer-upper.  And at a free event!
You can't ask for much more value than that.

-j

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  2 23:19:52 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 23:19:52 -0500
Subject: VCFMW
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHVU6e=sWn+J1u6_GGh5_v8FrdJYo4cVf6gvXEHPty8rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1441213200.37529.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <AA689510-B958-4A60-9A19-B7ABC5D3534C@gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHVU6e=sWn+J1u6_GGh5_v8FrdJYo4cVf6gvXEHPty8rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401d0e5ff$c870a0f0$5951e2d0$@classiccmp.org>

Jason wrote....
-----
Indeed, my basket-case HP1000E was, if not fixed, assessed and put on its way to good health by a pro HP fixer-upper.  And at a free event!
You can't ask for much more value than that.
-----
Yeah, that 2109 was pretty much a mess. It definitely took some severe hits over time.  I did not expect to completely strip a 21MX on the table there, but what the heck :) Initially it wasn't even passing the microcode "post" test. At the end, it passed every diagnostic in the diagnostic library including DMS & FFP microcode. I used my loopback connector to test your microcircuit board, also tested most of your I/O cards and all memory (one of your 64K standard speed boards was dead).

If there were serious problems like I initially expected, it would probably not be worth a lot of time to fix the mechanical problems. However, given that it definitely runs fine now - I'd suggest taking the time to do so.

Suggestions....
Two most important items:
1) Do not run it for more than a few minutes at a time until you scrape the foam from the inside top cover of the power supply, goo-gone to get the tape up, and replace the foam.
2) Find two flat head bolts to attach the rear of the power supply to the frame. Do that quickly, or you'll have more structural problems.

Other items:
The structural frame is missing a few rivets. This puts stress on other components that shouldn't be stressed ;)
Find two backplane connectors, and replace the two on the power distribution board. Until this is done, breathing on the machine could cause a failure. I think there is one on ebay right now. If not, I may well have a spare or two.

J




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  2 23:51:05 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 04:51:05 +0000
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <55E79EF8.50906@att.net>
References: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <55E79EF8.50906@att.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2E8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> "FMPS" is.....?    "_ _  print set"?

Field Maintenance Print Set

-tony

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 00:00:22 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 01:00:22 -0400
Subject: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902,
 and other HP-IB disk drives
References: <CAFrGgTT3vgpvPAKGyah_RfL=c0TaZ37xrrPfZZ+e_9DFyG-3pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <443AD1DFD5BB493CAC459EA709082BA8@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTROa+f=-zMJrpe0va4JWvnpgpGRMT=bAoTCGqeDVx6iAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38866BBAB6E44F7181099A1B53304206@310e2>

Looks like my ROMs are the first ones in your 
list, 80 A7 in the first two bytes (drives are 
9114As).

I'll send you the image anyway, just in case.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895,
82901/82902, and other HP-IB disk drives


> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Mike Stein
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The ROMs in my 9114s are 09114-15514 REV R.
>> Need an image? What type/size are they?
>
> There 27128 (16KB).
>
> There are at least five known ROM images for the
> 9114A/B, and I have
> images of two of them.  I'm not sure whether
> 09114-15514 Rev R matches
> one that I already have.  If you don't mind
> dumping it, that will be
> appreciated.  After I've collected a few of
> these, I'll put them up on
> a web page and post the URL to the list, in case
> anyone else needs
> them.
>
> John R. Baker established a precedent for using
> the contents of the
> first two bytes to identify the 9114 firmware
> revision; I don't know
> with certainty that that actually uniquely
> identifies all revisions.
>
> John wrote an HP-71B program to read the first
> two bytes over HP-IL.
> It should be possible to read the entire
> contents over HP-IL, but I've
> found it easy to pull the EPROM and read it with
> an EPROM programmer.
>
> John identified five firmware versions:
>
> 09114-15514A  first two bytes 80 a7  - from
> 9114A
> 09114-15514B  first two bytes ad fc   - probably
> from 9114A
> 09114-15515    first two bytes d8 b1   - not
> sure which model
> 09114-15516    first two bytes da dc   - not
> sure which model
> 09114-15521    first two bytes 10 8d   - from
> 9114B
>
> I have images whose first two bytes match
> the -15514A and -15521,
> courtesy of another list member, though I don't
> know the exact HP P/Ns
> that were on the labels. The -15514 image I have
> has the first two
> bytes 80 a7, matching the -15514A in John's
> list, and has a checksum
> (sum of all the bytes, modulo 64K) of 81ce.
>  The -15521 image I have
> matches the one in John's list, and has a
> checksum of 112a.
>
> Some years ago I did a fair bit of study of a
> disassembly of a 9114A
> ROM image, but unfortunately seem to have
> misplaced the results. I'm
> not sure whether I'll do it again.  IIRC it had
> a few more DDT and DDL
> commands than were defined in the Filbert
> (82161A tape drive) command
> set, and it also had an entirely different
> command set which I later
> found out was SS/80, for use by the HP 110
> Portable and Portable Plus.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep  3 01:12:02 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 08:12:02 +0200
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>
 <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150903061202.GA13167@Update.UU.SE>

I think Philipp only made one run with preordered boards. Try contact 
him directly unless he answers here, he is a subscriber.

Philipp: hachti at hachti.de

/P

On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 03:57:54PM -0500, Jay West wrote:
> Aaaaand the online store is apparently "down for maintenance" :\
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 3:40 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
> 
> Charles wrote...
> -------
> I just installed Kyle Owen's Serial Disk Server on my 8/A (at high speed via
> an Omni-USB card I got from Philipp Hachtmann).
> -------
> 
> Yeah, I've been meaning to get one of those omni-usb cards. Googling for the
> link.....
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 

From jlw at jlw.com  Thu Sep  3 01:05:52 2015
From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 23:05:52 -0700
Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement
Message-ID: <1441260352.4083433.373475441.6EC4F15D@webmail.messagingengine.com>

This isn't quite the way I remember the CMU instructions working.  Nor
is it exactly how I've implemented them in my emulator.

>Another oddball thing was then then-new Cyber 72/73 CMU.  An interesting 
>beast, but not present on the 74.

Presumably because an instack loop could move data faster.   I always
wondered, though, if you could put a CMU in the serial CPU on a 74-2x.
Probably too messy.

>It was possible initially to write code with the 46xxx CMU instruction 
>in first 2 parcels of an instruction word.  All Cyber 73 CMU 
>instructions were 60 bits, 

No, the IM instruction is 30 bits.  It's supposed to be forced upper.  I
don't recall whether the 72/73 were that picky and it would work in the
first 3 parcels, or work only in the first one (thus being 60-bit
equivalent) and pass in the others (with the rest of the instructions
becoming arbitrary).

>you could pack a call to a subroutine to do 
>the equivalent thing in the lower 30 bits for the 74.  Worked pretty 
>cool 

Looks like it would.  Aren't there some variant OSes that would put the
monitor call parameters in the lower 30 bits of an XJ instruction?   You
could probably also pack a parameter in the B register, and another in
the address, since those would mode out anyway (or be ignored in user
mode)--you'll get to CPUMTR no matter what.   ECS instructions would
execute the lower 30 bits if the transfer failed; this all in user mode
with no monitor intervention.

You could probably do the same thing with a conventional XJ instruction.
 6000s lacking ECS hardware and CEJ/MEJ treated all 01x instructions as
010 (RJ).  Probably can't get away with that on a 70.

>until the 170.  There, different models supported different subsets 
>of CMU instructions (or not at all)

It was all-or-nothing, no subsets.

>--and attempting to execute one not 
>implemented was greeted with an error stop.  The 170 people really 
>screwed that one up.

464xx and up were illegal on machines that did not (171) or could not
(175) have the CMU option, or in other parcels on any 170. 46000-46377
were pass instructions.   I don't know why they did this either, since
there were no 170s with unmatched CPUs (like the 6700 or 74-2x).  Also,
some dual-CP machines (including the 72/73) could have 1 or 2 CMUs. 
Needed some special code in CPUMTR to avoid using the CMU for storage
moves if there were fewer CMUs than CPUs, lest it be busy in the other
CPU and we had to wait for it in monitor mode.

It's possible that on 180s, 46100-46377 were illegal instructions,
though the design goal for 170 mode was a 173.  Perhaps the
175/740/750/760 did that too.  Note also on 180s with CMUs (emulated),
the instruction was limited to data in the first 262K; in particular
CPUMTR couldn't use it for storage moves unless it played games with
RA/FL in program mode (and it would still have to drag the instruction
around into each segment).  Too much of a kludge, I expect.

-- 
  Jeff Woolsey
  jlw at jlw.com

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep  3 03:05:39 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:05:39 +0200
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>



Hi all.

is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?

I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and twisted the 
ribbon cable connecting connector C and D. some magic smoke came loose 
and there are a few chips broken . :-(

by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect 
chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v...

The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but 
other boards could well be affected.
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From wrm at dW.co.za  Thu Sep  3 03:50:53 2015
From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:50:53 +0200
Subject: Multitech MicroProfessor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1441213200.37529.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1441213200.37529.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20150903104618.12444dc0@mort.dw.co.za>


>
>Possibly a long shot since I think the MPF was only a UK/Europe thing but

At least one made it to South Africa.

But no, I have neither the expansion board nor the manual I'm afraid.

W


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Sep  3 04:29:56 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:29:56 +0100
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>



On 03/09/2015 09:05, simon wrote:
> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
>
> I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and twisted the
> ribbon cable connecting connector C and D. some magic smoke came loose
> and there are a few chips broken . :-(

Ow.

I don't have a list, but I do have a copy of the 1976 Signetics ICs 
databook, which lists a lot of 82xx logic.  I've not checked one of my 
M8330 boards but I guess that's what you need.

8235 is a quad (4-bit) 2-input multiplexer - with a twist.  It has open 
collector outputs and two control inputs.  The twist is that one of each 
pair of inputs is non-inverting, the other is inverting, and the idea is 
that by tying the two inputs together you can use the control inputs to 
make the outputs the TRUE or COMPLEMENT of the input data, eg to feed to 
an adder.

The data sheet is two pages, which I can scan if you want.

The An and Bn data inputs are pins 1 and 2, 6 and 5, 10 and 11, 15 and 
14; corresponding f0 to f3 outputs are pins 3, 4, 12 and 13.  S0 and S1 
are pins 9 and 7.  Vcc is pin 16, GND is 8.

Truth table:
       S0      S1      fn
      ----    ----    ----
       0       0      /An.Bn
       0       1        Bn
       1       0       /An
       1       1        1

I like the last paragraph of the description.  "The 8234 and 8235 
designs have open collector outputs which permit direct wiring to other 
open collector outputs (collector logic) to yield 'free' four-bit words. 
  As any as one hundred four bit words can be multiplexed by using up to 
fifty 8234/8235 in WIRED-AND mode."

Good thing DEC didn't go quite that far.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 06:56:34 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 07:56:34 -0400
Subject: Reading ROMs
Message-ID: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>

While I was trying to read the ROM in my 9121 for Eric Smith I found
out that my Wellon VP-280 could not do it (it could not recognize it
and only read FF FF FF FF). I could use it however to dump the ROM of
an IBM PS2 that I cannot boot anymore (so it is not entirely useless).

So I am asking what you all use to dump various ROMs from vintage
PCs/peripherals/etc? Is there a good brand out there of E(E)PROM
programmer? Do you roll your own solution with an
Arduino/RaspeberryPi?

Thanks,
Vlad.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 07:41:57 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 08:41:57 -0400
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufLhtRbrOq4y+BjCcVF1+UiwXNMb5cP+CgVRMvL7JD-iA@mail.gmail.com>

You may know all of this but just in case ...Assuming you have reader that
can detect ROM type and compatible with ROM you are trying to read.  May be
jumper change required?  For example my Logical Systems Shooter has a
different jumper thay must be installed for each EPROM type.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 3, 2015 7:56 AM, "Vlad Stamate" <vlad.stamate at gmail.com> wrote:

> While I was trying to read the ROM in my 9121 for Eric Smith I found
> out that my Wellon VP-280 could not do it (it could not recognize it
> and only read FF FF FF FF). I could use it however to dump the ROM of
> an IBM PS2 that I cannot boot anymore (so it is not entirely useless).
>
> So I am asking what you all use to dump various ROMs from vintage
> PCs/peripherals/etc? Is there a good brand out there of E(E)PROM
> programmer? Do you roll your own solution with an
> Arduino/RaspeberryPi?
>
> Thanks,
> Vlad.
>

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep  3 07:53:28 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:53:28 -0500
Subject: MEM11 Status Update
Message-ID: <7wr6irl7l1u0bf6h92bs6vll.1441284808368@email.android.com>

RK05 would be suitable

Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

>
>
>On 9/2/15 8:42 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/1/2015 10:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>>>   run Unix V1
>>>> I am very interested in the MEM11 for this exact reason.  I have a
>>>> PDP-11/20 that I'd love to do this with.
>>>>
>>> You could also try Mini-Unix on your 11/20, which might support a 
>>> wider range of devices.
>>
>> Very interesting.  Does Guy's MEM11 provide what's needed for Mini 
>> Unix without having to write special drivers?
>>
>Not sure what Mini-Unix requires w.r.t. devices.
>
>TTFN - Guy
>

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 08:52:54 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 08:52:54 -0500
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>

Here's what I did to replace a broken 8235 before I found an exact
replacement.

http://imgur.com/a/QVRLs

Kyle

From jrr at flippers.com  Thu Sep  3 09:15:27 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 07:15:27 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E855FF.10608@flippers.com>

On 09/03/2015 4:56 AM, Vlad Stamate wrote:
> While I was trying to read the ROM in my 9121 for Eric Smith I found
> out that my Wellon VP-280 could not do it (it could not recognize it
> and only read FF FF FF FF). I could use it however to dump the ROM of
> an IBM PS2 that I cannot boot anymore (so it is not entirely useless).
>
> So I am asking what you all use to dump various ROMs from vintage
> PCs/peripherals/etc? Is there a good brand out there of E(E)PROM
> programmer? Do you roll your own solution with an
> Arduino/RaspeberryPi?
>
> Thanks,
> Vlad.
>
Some of the early ROMs had extra voltages and unusual select logic and 
for those you either need to make an adapter or get an ancient Eprom 
programmer to be able to read them.

I use Data I/O 29B with a Unipak for most of my old timers, but have a 
Pro-Log unit for the 1702s as well as an Andromeda programmer/reader. 
The Andromeda is pretty flexible in what it will read - it also reads 
1702s - but for burning I use the 29B or the Pro-Log for the earliest chips.

What is the part number of the device you are trying to read? Vlad, are 
you by any chance close to Vancouver BC and thus able to drop by my shop 
where we could read your device and provide you with the file?

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From hachti at hachti.de  Thu Sep  3 11:24:06 2015
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 18:24:06 +0200
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
Message-ID: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>

Hi folks,

as you might remember I made about 20 OmniUSB Omnibus to USB adapters. Since a 
few month they're all sold.

The last days I got some inquiries for more. So I think of making a new batch.

As my board supplier has doubled (It was so cheap before..!) the price for gold 
plated contact PCBs, the board will be more expensive in the end. And I 
massively underestimated the labour...
And I'll overhaul the design.

The original board description:
http://pdp8.hachti.de/projects/omni_usb/

The facts about a new board:

- Exactly same functionality
- Smaller
- Still gold plated contacts
- Still KL8E compatible
- Power supply parts will be moved away from the PCB's edge
- USB connector will be moved away from the PCB's edge

The board will cost (fully assembled and tested) EUR 105 (without VAT for 
overseas buyers) and About EUR with VAT for anyone in the EU.

A still to design cusom handle (I think of laser cut acrylic with wood) to make 
the board the original size will be available in the EUR 25 range.

If YOU are interested, please let me know. I'll make my decision with regards to 
the feedback I'll get from this posting.

I need at least 10 seriously interested people to make it happen again.


Kind regards

Philipp




From radiotest at juno.com  Thu Sep  3 10:29:06 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:29:06 -0400
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150903105551.03d706a0@juno.com>

At 07:56 AM 9/3/2015, Vlad Stamate wrote:

>So I am asking what you all use to dump various ROMs from vintage PCs/peripherals/etc?

For 1980s ROMs I still use the Serial EPROM Programmer published in BYTE by Steve Ciacia in the mid-80s.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 13:45:16 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:45:16 -0600
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
In-Reply-To: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>
References: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRytOKGJNyYsS_sxaH6vQweoimyw_LXKs_Ww-0inXPrYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
> As my board supplier has doubled (It was so cheap before..!) the price for
> gold plated contact PCBs,

If you don't mind sharing, which supplier is it?  Is the connector
plating hard gold over nickel? How many microns (or micro-inches) of
each?

Many of the PCB fab companies I've queried either won't do hard gold
at all, or not for short runs, or charge a fortune.

I intent to make some short-run boards for the Apple II and Intel
Multibus in the not too distant future, and while a non-gold edge
connector is OK for one or two prototypes, it's not satisfactory for
general use.

From hachti at hachti.de  Thu Sep  3 15:28:11 2015
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 22:28:11 +0200
Subject: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
In-Reply-To: <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <A207837D2CE148EB9BACFDD6A1E11470@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <003601d0e5bf$7e45eb10$7ad1c130$@classiccmp.org>
 <003e01d0e5c2$0a598740$1f0c95c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E49DD3E9-2C5E-47DF-B47B-B733D6DA7E72@hachti.de>

Haha, it's down for lack of articles. See my other post :-)

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 02.09.2015 um 22:57 schrieb Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:
> 
> Aaaaand the online store is apparently "down for maintenance" :\
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 3:40 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: Serial Disk Server to PDP-8/A
> 
> Charles wrote...
> -------
> I just installed Kyle Owen's Serial Disk Server on my 8/A (at high speed via
> an Omni-USB card I got from Philipp Hachtmann).
> -------
> 
> Yeah, I've been meaning to get one of those omni-usb cards. Googling for the
> link.....
> 
> J
> 
> 

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Sep  3 17:38:13 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 23:38:13 +0100
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/09/2015 14:52, Kyle Owen wrote:
> Here's what I did to replace a broken 8235 before I found an exact
> replacement.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/QVRLs

Impressive!

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 19:46:49 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:46:49 +1200
Subject: IBM 1620
In-Reply-To: <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com>
 <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CABGJBueGqPeBhVmqPBBWh4N0_K7o_kXJHp8HBGsjJGuthQ8bjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com>
 <CAM6XJCn-Hvc6GcXHpKizPYNRqNBqyW3zhgCKDbzLBj8hmV+pQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPqK6uNntbsA3gvPScRdEOXAuwMa6sGk+i4c2jbwQz4Lw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500
> Ben Sinclair <ben at bensinclair.com> wrote:
>
>> The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
>> they know about:
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
>>
>> From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
>> right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
>
> The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on > the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved".

That sounds suspiciously like a problem Henk Stegeman told me he had
encountered with the core memory on a System/3; the problem there had
been a reaction between the core memory solder (or was it the actual
wires used to string the cores?) and the foam used to make a seal for
the air cooling through the core... either way, vital bits of the core
stack got dissolved by the foam over 40 years...

Mike

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 21:07:01 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 19:07:01 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
Message-ID: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>

I was going to ask a similar question here, and I am sure it has been asked
before.  I do have a HP 82901 and a HP 9121 but I am not equipped to read
ROMs, so I can't really help yet. Plus I will soon need the ability to burn
ROMs for my HP 85 and HP 1000. Not only the standard 24 pin ROMs but the
small 14 or 16 pin bootloader ROMs that Jay showed me at VCF. What would be
a good ROM programmer that could read and write these  of older HP equipment
ROMs?
Marc

-----------------------
From: Vlad Stamate <vlad.stamate at gmail.com>
Subject: Reading ROMs

While I was trying to read the ROM in my 9121 for Eric Smith I found
out that my Wellon VP-280 could not do it (it could not recognize it
and only read FF FF FF FF). I could use it however to dump the ROM of
an IBM PS2 that I cannot boot anymore (so it is not entirely useless).

So I am asking what you all use to dump various ROMs from vintage
PCs/peripherals/etc? Is there a good brand out there of E(E)PROM
programmer? Do you roll your own solution with an
Arduino/RaspeberryPi?

Thanks,
Vlad.
-----------------------


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  3 22:43:37 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 20:43:37 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
References: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W6267A6549114DA57B65373A3570@phx.gbl>

Some ROM don't have the same enables as 2716 or other EPROMs.
I usually make up a header that I ensure that the programming voltage
can't get to the ROM and I make high low switches for the various select
lines. Then I use a standard eprom programmer to read ROMs.
I could make something with an Arduino but don't have the need.
Can you be clearer about what your problem was?
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Sep  3 22:45:45 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 22:45:45 -0500
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
References: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901d0e6c4$2ea33210$8be99630$@classiccmp.org>

Marc wrote....
HP 1000. Not only the standard 24 pin ROMs but the small 14 or 16 pin
bootloader ROMs that Jay showed me at VCF. What would be a good ROM
programmer that could read and write these  of older HP equipment ROMs?
-----------

The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms. With
optional additional attachments, it can program more "modern" devices as
well.

I have a list of the various blanks needed for 21MX loader roms, and the two
different blanks needed for microcode. I'll dig that up and post tomorrow.

J




From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  3 22:49:29 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 20:49:29 -0700
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
 <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>, <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>,
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>

A pal could have worked as well.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 23:06:01 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:06:01 -0700
Subject: For sale: Random S-100 stuff (Seattle, WA)
Message-ID: <55E918A9.9080803@gmail.com>

I'm doing a bit of cleaning out of random things I don't use much 
anymore; hopefully these can find a good home.

Make an offer on these, I'd prefer local pickup (for the VDP-80 I 
require it, it's just too large/heavy/fragile to trust with shipping) 
near Seattle.

Thanks,
Josh

Here's what I have, S-100 wise:

Boards (in as-is condition, unless otherwise noted):
- Tarbell 1011D FDC
- Solid State Music VB1B video interface
- SSM CB1A 8080 CPU (+2k RAM).  Working, used to use it in my IMSAI .
- Processor Technology 16KRA, 16K static RAM.
- CompuPro (Godbout) RAM16 - 64K dynamic RAM (despite the name)
- IMSAI MIO (rev. 2) - Serial/Parallel I/O board
- IMSAI VIO (rev 2.1) - Video board
- PSS RAM65 - 64K ram?  (never could find a manual).
- Piiceon 8K Program Saver (2708 EPROMs).  Only two EPROM sockets (of 8) 
installed.
- Ithaca Audio 8K static RAM board.  Bad shape.  Missing a row of chips, 
looks to be an unfinished kit.  Corrosion.


Computers:
No-name (TEI generic chassis, about half as deep as an IMSAI, no 
blinkenlights) with the following boards:
     Thinker Toys SUPERRAM 16 - 16K static RAM.  A bit of corrosion on a 
few chips, but should be easy to clean up
     Thinker Toys 32K static RAM.  Also has some corrosion.
     The Memory Merchant MM16K14 - 16 K Ram.  Corrosion as with the others.
     IMSAI SIO Rev-3.  Dual serial board.  Corrosion.
     Northstar ZPB-A2 Z-80 CPU board.  Corrosion .

It looks as if this system sat on end in a shallow pool (say, 2") of 
water for a couple of days and wasn't properly dried up afterwards;
all boards installed have corrosion on their left sides, affecting a 
couple of rows of chips.  The backplane also seems to be a bit corroded 
but is not as bad. Despite this, the chassis is very clean.  Power 
supply seems to be fine.  Definitely a project, but probably fixable 
with some new sockets and ICs.


Complete IMSAI VDP-80 system 
(http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=343) with 
manuals and software.  Unknown working condition, but it's not in bad 
shape given the years -- some screen rot.  I got it as a project and 
it's just been sitting there, waiting.  Debating whether to hold onto it 
or not -- make me an offer I can't refuse :).



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep  3 23:50:59 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:50:59 -0700
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55E92333.3010604@sydex.com>

On 09/03/2015 08:49 PM, dwight wrote:
> A pal could have worked as well. Dwight

A GAL should also be useful--and maybe a bit more flexible.  To emulate 
the OC outputs, one can simply manipulate the output enable so that a 
'1' output is High-Z and '0' is, well, '0'.   I believe individual oput 
tristate control is allowed in non-registered mode for GALs.  A PALCE 
should also work.

A 20 pin PLCC should fit on a DIP-sized PCB.

--Chuck






From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 23:58:25 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 23:58:25 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking into a road trip from Champaign  to Maine via Indy, Detroit,
Windsor, Niagra Falls, Buffalo or 1000 Islands, Syracuse to Boston area,
and up to Maine. Not sure about the return Route.

I'll be leaving late Sep or early Oct.

I have talked to a few list members about dropping off/picking up items. If
anyone wishes to buy/ sell/ trade along the route, please contact me off
list. I have a good size minivan and am trying to keep things down to a
BA11-K or FL02 size, but that can change.I do have a few 42 inch cabs with
q-bus boxes i could part with. I have a lot of 8A, 8E, qbus, unibus, VAX,
boxes and parts, and LAXX, VTxx and VR units and parts.

Thanks, Paul

From steve at tronola.com  Thu Sep  3 14:31:26 2015
From: steve at tronola.com (Stephen Lafferty)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:31:26 -0400
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1441299601.89110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.2.1441299601.89110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E8A00E.6020308@tronola.com>

Hi Simon,

As others have implied, the DEC8235 is a Signetics 8235N. It's available 
from obsolete part distributors. A quick search turns up this source:
http://www.4starelectronics.com/part_detail/8235N.html

While the RFQ instead of a price is bad news in some places, I've had 
good results with that in the obsolete parts arena.
> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
--- Thought I had a longer list somewhere but this short list is what I 
find at the moment:

DEC#           Generic
----------------------
97401         7401
8881           7439*  Quad 2-inp NAND OC
8266           8266 Signetics 2-inp 4-bit wide mux
8270           8270 Signetics may = TI 74178 according to posts in cctech.
8271           8271 Signetics 4-bit SR in 16p pkg  = TI 74179
8251           N8251N Signetics BCD/decimal decoder in 16p pkg
5380           SP380 Signetics
5314A        SP314A Signetics
8640           DS8640 National
380            (?) SP384A Signetics Quad 2-in OR gate
*Note that some DEC8881s have been reported as having 7439 markings on 
the bottom.

Steve Lafferty





From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Sep  3 14:36:40 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:36:40 -0400
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRytOKGJNyYsS_sxaH6vQweoimyw_LXKs_Ww-0inXPrYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>
 <CAFrGgTRytOKGJNyYsS_sxaH6vQweoimyw_LXKs_Ww-0inXPrYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkW7N3eqsfDZLEYtEyPq5r1JB6__Uo11h_-nJR3G8_Jxrw@mail.gmail.com>

My dad shops out prototype PCB manufacturing to a firm called Omnitrace (
http://www.pcb4u.com). He sends them layouts and they send back bare boards
which he stuffs in the lab ... He says the price is the best he's found,
there's no minimum run size (not sure on the plated edge connectors,
though) and the turnaround is very quick. He had samples of I think an
8-layer board they had done for him recently that he showed me last time we
visited and they were very nicely done. I haven't gotten to the point of
doing layout yet ... all my projects are still on the bread board ... but
when I do eventually run off some boards, I expect to use those guys.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de>
> wrote:
> > As my board supplier has doubled (It was so cheap before..!) the price
> for
> > gold plated contact PCBs,
>
> If you don't mind sharing, which supplier is it?  Is the connector
> plating hard gold over nickel? How many microns (or micro-inches) of
> each?
>
> Many of the PCB fab companies I've queried either won't do hard gold
> at all, or not for short runs, or charge a fortune.
>
> I intent to make some short-run boards for the Apple II and Intel
> Multibus in the not too distant future, and while a non-gold edge
> connector is OK for one or two prototypes, it's not satisfactory for
> general use.
>

From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Thu Sep  3 14:37:50 2015
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:37:50 -0400
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E8A00E.6020308@tronola.com>
References: <mailman.2.1441299601.89110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <55E8A00E.6020308@tronola.com>
Message-ID: <D7C3618E-2B1C-4395-88DF-86711E951AD1@VMSSoftware.com>

Dear Wayne,

If anything comes up from Nemonix let me know and I will see what I can do.  Since I work for neither company I can volunteer some time for Nemonix as well.

I am going to post the link to the Nemonix DSSI link.

Sue



> On Sep 3, 2015, at 3:31 PM, Stephen Lafferty <steve at tronola.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Simon,
> 
> As others have implied, the DEC8235 is a Signetics 8235N. It's available from obsolete part distributors. A quick search turns up this source:
> http://www.4starelectronics.com/part_detail/8235N.html
> 
> While the RFQ instead of a price is bad news in some places, I've had good results with that in the obsolete parts arena.
>> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
> --- Thought I had a longer list somewhere but this short list is what I find at the moment:
> 
> DEC#           Generic
> ----------------------
> 97401         7401
> 8881           7439*  Quad 2-inp NAND OC
> 8266           8266 Signetics 2-inp 4-bit wide mux
> 8270           8270 Signetics may = TI 74178 according to posts in cctech.
> 8271           8271 Signetics 4-bit SR in 16p pkg  = TI 74179
> 8251           N8251N Signetics BCD/decimal decoder in 16p pkg
> 5380           SP380 Signetics
> 5314A        SP314A Signetics
> 8640           DS8640 National
> 380            (?) SP384A Signetics Quad 2-in OR gate
> *Note that some DEC8881s have been reported as having 7439 markings on the bottom.
> 
> Steve Lafferty
> 
> 
> 
> 

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Sep  3 17:52:57 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 23:52:57 +0100
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E8A00E.6020308@tronola.com>
References: <mailman.2.1441299601.89110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <55E8A00E.6020308@tronola.com>
Message-ID: <55E8CF49.5000404@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/09/2015 20:31, Stephen Lafferty wrote:
> --- Thought I had a longer list somewhere but this short list is what I
> find at the moment:

I think you'll find a 380 and a 384 are not the same :-)  But the 8270/8271
substitutions by 74178/74179 seem to match and are good to know.

A leading additional 5 or 9 means DEC selected examples of devices, eg 
97401/7401, 380/5380, etc against some particular criteria, such as 
leakage, or drive current.

Here's a list I found some time ago (most of the comments are not mine, 
and I'm sorry I've lost the attribution, but I've updated it slightly):

DEC component cross reference / substitutions
     DEC                EIE
D-003, D003            1N994
D-662, D662            1N645
D-664, D664            1N3606
D-668, D668            Two 1N3606 in series
D-670, D670            1N3653
D-671, D671            1N3653
D-672, D672            1N3653
DEC 999, DEC999        MM999
DEC 1008, DEC1008      MM1008
DEC 2219, DEC2219      2N2219
2N2904                 2N2118A
DEC 2904, DEC2904      2N1132
DEC 3009, DEC3009      2N3009
DEC 3009A, DEC3009A    2N3009
DEC 3009B, DEC3009B    2N3009
DEC 3500, DEC3500      2N3500
DEC 3568, DEC3568      2N3568
DEC 3634, DEC3634      2N3634
DEC 3638, DEC3638      2N3638
DEC 3639, DEC3639      2N3639
DEC 3639B, DEC3639B    2N3639
DEC 3639-2, DEC3639-2  2N3639-2
DEC 3715, DEC3715      2N3715
DEC 3790, DEC3790      2N3790
DEC 4258, DEC4258      2N4258
DEC 6531, DEC6531      MPS6531
DEC 6534, DEC6534      MPS6534
SDA-6, SDA6            2N2060
1N429                  1N429 6.2V 5%
1N449                  1N449 6.2V 5%
1N762                  1N762 5.5V 250 ohms 5%
1/4M6.8AZ5             1N4099
1/4M2.4VAZ5            1N4370
MR2064                 1N4001
MR2066                 1N4003
U6A900959X             7440
MPSA05                 GPSA05 (Pinout reversed)
MPSA55                 GPSA55 (Pinout reversed)

Connector
1209456                AMP 61320-1
1209340                Tyco/AMP 1-480459-0
 From PDP-8 maintenance manual 10-5 and RK05 prints.

Also I have found the following parts to be similar but this is not from
DEC documentation so check your particular part.
DEC 82xx is Signetics 82xx series
DEC 5xxx is Signetics SPxxx
DEC 88xx is National DS88xx series or also I think Signetics 8Txx series
DEC 97401 is also labeled a SN7401, was a selected version of that part
     for low leakage current.
DEC 314, DEC314		SP314A
DEC 380, DEC380		SP380A, also DS8640 is similar
DEC 384, DEC384		SP384A
DEC 8881, DEC8881	SN7401 has same pinout but less drive, SN7439
                         has the drive and same pinout.

For R series repairs B Klatt said:
I've successfully used 1N4148-type diodes and 2N3904 (NPN) and
2N3906 (PNP) as general purpose substitutes in the few R-series
repairs I've made.   The MPSA05 and MPSA55 were popular with
DEC designers and are still readily available.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From shumaker at att.net  Thu Sep  3 19:39:34 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 17:39:34 -0700
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2E8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <55E79EF8.50906@att.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2E8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55E8E846.4070908@att.net>

On 9/2/2015 9:51 PM, tony duell wrote:
>    
>> "FMPS" is.....?    "_ _  print set"?
>>      
> Field Maintenance Print Set
>
> -tony
>
>    
Thanks!  I've seen the term before but never saw it defined.  Very 
little experience with the pdp docs environment.  These are specifically 
defined sets of diagrams and/or schematics for a particular 
part/module/assembly?   Bound or loose sheet?

steve

From vlad.stamate at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 19:57:07 2015
From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 20:57:07 -0400
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <55E855FF.10608@flippers.com>
References: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E855FF.10608@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <CADgrRPhr66vahrKPi160gLFutHTooApWcT5-6XpK=_6EbVMQ5A@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 September 2015 at 10:15, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:
> Some of the early ROMs had extra voltages and unusual select logic and for
> those you either need to make an adapter or get an ancient Eprom programmer
> to be able to read them.
>
> I use Data I/O 29B with a Unipak for most of my old timers, but have a
> Pro-Log unit for the 1702s as well as an Andromeda programmer/reader. The
> Andromeda is pretty flexible in what it will read - it also reads 1702s -
> but for burning I use the 29B or the Pro-Log for the earliest chips.
>
> What is the part number of the device you are trying to read? Vlad, are you
> by any chance close to Vancouver BC and thus able to drop by my shop where
> we could read your device and provide you with the file?
I am not sure about the part number it was under the sticker with the
ROM version (which btw was 09121 15510 REV A) and I put it back into
the unit. I will take it out and look at it again. Unfortunately I am
at the opposite on the diagonal from you (Orlando, FL).

Regards,
Vlad.

>
> John :-#)#
>
> --
> John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
> Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
>                  www.flippers.com
> "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 20:00:39 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 19:00:39 -0600
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <55E8E846.4070908@att.net>
References: <20150902115647.12E9D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55E79EF8.50906@att.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D2E8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55E8E846.4070908@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRPhGOiTLrc1iZbEHLm4gnxyv+2KywaptfH71vkHbS99g@mail.gmail.com>

>> Field Maintenance Print Set

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:39 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:
> These are specifically defined
> sets of diagrams and/or schematics for a particular part/module/assembly?

Sometimes a module, sometimes an assembly, sometimes an entire
computer or computer system.  Some FMPS include nested FMPS for
subassemblies or modules.

The exact content of an FMPS varies quite a bit. Some are only
schematics, most also include component placement diagrams, some even
include the PCB etc patterns. Some include parts lists. Some include
wirelists but most do not. For processors, some include flow diagrams
or PROM contents.  It's whatever subset of the engineering drawings
that the service organization thought would be necessary or useful to
field service, so many things we might want from an historical
perspective are not included.

> Bound or loose sheet?

They are US B size (11 inch by 17 inch), stapled on the left edge, and
hole punched on the left edge for use in a large binder.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep  3 20:09:40 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 19:09:40 -0600
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <CADgrRPhr66vahrKPi160gLFutHTooApWcT5-6XpK=_6EbVMQ5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgrRPj408JttZaHn2Qknbk+47jVJO30Q4u-MG_4pRAH+ewU0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E855FF.10608@flippers.com>
 <CADgrRPhr66vahrKPi160gLFutHTooApWcT5-6XpK=_6EbVMQ5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTJrbWzh+MXnQZFBQ_ao1pVySK8WJx+Ccen5rFmgjnLtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Vlad Stamate <vlad.stamate at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not sure about the part number it was under the sticker with the
> ROM version (which btw was 09121 15510 REV A) and I put it back into
> the unit.

The PCA silkscreen diagram in the service manual shows F2364, which is
an 8Kx8 masked ROM. The silkscreen shows a 28-pin footprint, but it is
not clear whether the device is a 24-pin or 28-pin chip. If it is a
24-pin chip, it should be possible to read it with an EPROM programmer
configured for the Motorola MCM68764 or MCM68766 EPROMs.  For an EPROM
programmer which does not support the MCM6876x, it's possible to wire
an adapter:

http://www.mess.org/dumping/2364_mask_roms

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep  3 23:28:04 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:28:04 -0700
Subject: Sign magnitude, one's complement, two's complement
In-Reply-To: <1441260352.4083433.373475441.6EC4F15D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1441260352.4083433.373475441.6EC4F15D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <55E91DD4.60308@sydex.com>

On 09/02/2015 11:05 PM, Jeff Woolsey wrote:
> This isn't quite the way I remember the CMU instructions working.
> Nor is it exactly how I've implemented them in my emulator.

Sorry that my explanation was scrambled with a few blown synapses.  I'll 
try again.

CMU was implemented in the lower Cyber 70 (72,73) and 170 (
720, 730) as instructions 464xx through 467xx.  However, what happens 
with the upper Cybers varies--the 74 and 176 (as well as the 7600 and 
6600) treat them as no-ops (46xxx).  However, the 750 and 760 treat 
464...467 as illegal instructions and error out.

According to my Cyber 72/73 reference, all CMU instructions must be 
located in the first parcel of an instruction word.  The Cyber 170 
restates this in at least two places in the instruction reference.  So 
no putting an IM in the second or third parcel. The reference for the 
lower 170s states that the machine does not execute any instructions in 
the lower 2 parcels of a word.

  Of course, the other CMU instructions 465-567 occupy a fullword, so no 
problems with alignment.

One of the early "tricks' was to take the IM instruction 464 B KKKKKK 
instruction, set up a B register and offset, such that the offset would 
be encoded as 46000 - a plain old no-op.  So, if your B register was 2, 
the first 2 parcels of an instruction word looked like:

	46420 46000

Two no-ops to a Cyber 74, 7600, 176 so an RJ to the regular move routine 
could be put in the lower half of the word.   Worked like a dream.

But when the upper Cyber 170 systems (750, 760) came onto the scene, 
that "clever" code quit working.  Maybe NOS/NOS-BE recognized the 
illegal instruction exception and implemented the IM and other CMU 
instructions in software, but I was off onto non-Cyber stuff by then.

Regardless, I do recall some grumbling at the time.

I never knew if the CMU ever amounted to much in the real world other 
than for the IM instruction.    You pretty much had to build the 
instructions for CC CU and DM, which involved a fair amount of setup 
code.  I'm sure that Don Nelson had a directive from on high to put them 
into COBOL, but I never saw any benchmark results--I was off working on 
64 bit hardware and 6-bit characters weren't part of my world.

Such is my limited exposure to the late Cyber 70/early Cyber 170 
machines re CMU.  I have no knowledge of how such stuff worked in 60 bit 
mode on the 180s.  It's been 40 years after all.

--Chuck


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 01:01:16 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 08:01:16 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Since the capacity of 2x RF31 and 1x RF71 disks is a little bit low
> for VMS with some compilersi (~400MB every disk), I've looked for a bigger
> disk, at least for the sytem itself. (I've already relocated the pagefile
> to the 2nd disk).
> Ok, there are RF73 available at ebay US for $100, but addiotional $50 and more
> for shipping is to much, I have to pay additional 19% of customs VAT on top
> of the sum from disk+shipping.. Maybe there are people that think that this
> prices are ok, but not me, not for an old 2GB disk for an computer with
> that power consumtion and that computing "power"..
> In the case there is someone in europe that want to give away such a disk
> for an acceptable price, please mail me..
> 
> Luckily an old friend of mine found 2 Disks in his stock, another RF31 (not
> tried jet) and an RF73.
> I've changed now the working but still almost empty RF71 in my VAX4000-300
> against that RF73 disk and tried to integrate it to the system.
> It starts with all LEDs on (as the other do), begins to rattle a little
> with the head assembly (as the others do) but stops then and begins to
> reposition somewhere in 0.5s cycles. It never finishes doing that, it is
> not going to ready. The ready led is blinking for a short time after every
> 0,5s cycle. I've tried to talk with the disk using the KA670 Firmware
> with set host/dup/dssi/bus:0 2, PARAMS is working and STATUS is responding,
> the displayed last failure was 3304(X) and I don't know what that could be..
> 
> All other commands do work, but they are aborted since the disk is busy.
> 
> The available RF72DUG8 gives the hint that the error codes are listed in
> the service manuals, but it seems that those manuals aren't available
> somewhere.
> 
> What could the error be? Is the disk dead?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 
> -- 
>       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
>      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...

Thanks to all that haven't answered.


Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jrr at flippers.com  Fri Sep  4 01:36:59 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 23:36:59 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <000901d0e6c4$2ea33210$8be99630$@classiccmp.org>
References: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
 <000901d0e6c4$2ea33210$8be99630$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55E93C0B.3040809@flippers.com>

On 09/03/2015 8:45 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Marc wrote....
> HP 1000. Not only the standard 24 pin ROMs but the small 14 or 16 pin
> bootloader ROMs that Jay showed me at VCF. What would be a good ROM
> programmer that could read and write these  of older HP equipment ROMs?
> -----------
>
> The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms. With
> optional additional attachments, it can program more "modern" devices as
> well.
>
> I have a list of the various blanks needed for 21MX loader roms, and the two
> different blanks needed for microcode. I'll dig that up and post tomorrow.
>
> J
>
>
>
>

One can pick up a Data I/O 29B and Unipak II off eBay starting around 
$100USD (ish) Make sure it powers up before buying it with no error 
messages showing. Seller should show picture of the display with the 
model and revision code showing.

There is a very good support group on yahoo groups:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM

They have an extensive file system and I have some Data I/O stuff too here:

ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment

John :-#)#



John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 01:50:36 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 02:50:36 -0400
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn-8YnKCWNj1THg6VhWqXHf5UgXbV0s4q1+r_kVooCYCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
>
> Thanks to all that haven't answered.

Sorry I can't help.  I own no DSSI gear, never had to fix it, and from
your well-written description of the problem, clearly know far less
than you already do.  At work, we had SDI disks, and non-DEC SCSI, but
never any DSSI.  At the time, the newer MicroVAXen cost more than we
had to spend on hardware, so I missed out on an entire generation of
storage.

Hopefully someone can help, but it's not me.

-ethan

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 03:16:14 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 09:16:14 +0100
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn-8YnKCWNj1THg6VhWqXHf5UgXbV0s4q1+r_kVooCYCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAALmimn-8YnKCWNj1THg6VhWqXHf5UgXbV0s4q1+r_kVooCYCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015b01d0e6e9$f8a4e930$e9eebb90$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan
> Dicks
> Sent: 04 September 2015 07:51
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
> 
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
> >
> > Thanks to all that haven't answered.
> 

I think I have DSSI disk (Micro VAX II) but know less than you. Have you tried the DECTEC list

http://dectec.info/

Its quiet, but the answers one gets can be good..

Dave

> Sorry I can't help.  I own no DSSI gear, never had to fix it, and from your well-
> written description of the problem, clearly know far less than you already do.
> At work, we had SDI disks, and non-DEC SCSI, but never any DSSI.  At the
> time, the newer MicroVAXen cost more than we had to spend on hardware,
> so I missed out on an entire generation of storage.
> 
> Hopefully someone can help, but it's not me.
> 
> -ethan


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 03:37:29 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 02:37:29 -0600
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkW7N3eqsfDZLEYtEyPq5r1JB6__Uo11h_-nJR3G8_Jxrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>
 <CAFrGgTRytOKGJNyYsS_sxaH6vQweoimyw_LXKs_Ww-0inXPrYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkW7N3eqsfDZLEYtEyPq5r1JB6__Uo11h_-nJR3G8_Jxrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRTxk0-=iHnwEZSm9-G2YJ6+O_nhxxAkFmiCgXYFh2Tgw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Sean. I'll have to inquire as to whether they offer hard gold
over nickel for edge connectors. I know of a bunch of relatively
low-cost PCB fabs, but they generally either don't offer hard gold, or
only on large runs, or only for really big bucks.  The actual cost of
the gold on a hard gold edge connector is only a few dollars, which
doesn't justify adding >$50/board on a short run, IMO, but that's what
I've usually been quoted.

Note that "hard gold" is much different from electroless nickel
immersion gold (ENIG), which is a much more commonly available surface
finish that is used on an entire board surface, but NOT suitable for
edge connectors. ENIG uses a very thin gold layer (about 0.1?m gold
over 2?m nickel) that will wear off the the edge connectors in only a
few insertions. Hard gold for edge connectors is typically 1-2 ?m of
gold over 3-6 ?m of nickel.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 03:49:56 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 09:49:56 +0100
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <015b01d0e6e9$f8a4e930$e9eebb90$@gmail.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAALmimn-8YnKCWNj1THg6VhWqXHf5UgXbV0s4q1+r_kVooCYCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <015b01d0e6e9$f8a4e930$e9eebb90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006101d0e6ee$aca2cde0$05e869a0$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave G4UGM [mailto:dave.g4ugm at gmail.com]
> Sent: 04 September 2015 09:16
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan
> > Dicks
> > Sent: 04 September 2015 07:51
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > > Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
> > >
> > > Thanks to all that haven't answered.
> >
> 
> I think I have DSSI disk (Micro VAX II) but know less than you. Have you tried
> the DECTEC list
> 
> http://dectec.info/
> 
> Its quiet, but the answers one gets can be good..
> 
> Dave
> 


Sorry to twitter, and apologies if you have already been there, but the comp.os.vms usenet group which is mirrored here

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.os.vms

has some recent discussion on DSSI disk problems....

Dave


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Fri Sep  4 04:09:06 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 10:09:06 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Sep 2015 08:01:16 +0200"
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <01PQCGWWV71M009L6C@beyondthepale.ie>

Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
>

I have a MicroVAX 4000/100A with two DSSI disks that slowly died one after the
other, not long after I got it.  From the errors they logged and the clunking
and rattling noises they started making, it seems clear they have media issues
similar to a number of RZ26 SCSI disks that I have also had problems with.

>
> Thanks to all that haven't answered.
>

I enquired about finding replacements for mine on the list some time ago but
there wasn't much response either.  I think it is more likely that there is
not much interest or knowledge of DSSI on the list, not that people are
withholding information for some reason.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Fri Sep  4 06:22:31 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 07:22:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <000901d0e6c4$2ea33210$8be99630$@classiccmp.org>
References: <05c301d0e6b6$63f0b4a0$2bd21de0$@gmail.com>
 <000901d0e6c4$2ea33210$8be99630$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1509040719460.59592@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015, Jay West wrote:

> Marc wrote....
> HP 1000. Not only the standard 24 pin ROMs but the small 14 or 16 pin
> bootloader ROMs that Jay showed me at VCF. What would be a good ROM
> programmer that could read and write these  of older HP equipment ROMs?
> -----------
>
> The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms. With
> optional additional attachments, it can program more "modern" devices as
> well.
>
> I have a list of the various blanks needed for 21MX loader roms, and the two
> different blanks needed for microcode. I'll dig that up and post tomorrow.

    From my notes on upgrading my 2109E to run RTE-6/VM:

    "I used a Data I/O 29B programmer to burn the PROMs, with a Unipak 2B. 
The blank PROMs were variously Signetics N82S141, MMI 6341-1 and National 
74S474. Along with the 12821A HP-IB board, you also need a Boot Loader 
PROM, 12992H (12992-80004). The boot loader PROM is a Signetics N82S129 or 
equivalent. For installation information about the firmware PROMs, see 
manual 12791-90001 (HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Firmware Installation and 
Reference Manual). For boot loader information, see manual 12792-90001 (HP 
12992 Loader ROMs Installation Manual)."


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep  4 07:34:23 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 08:34:23 -0400
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkW7N3eqsfDZLEYtEyPq5r1JB6__Uo11h_-nJR3G8_Jxrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E87426.2010603@hachti.de>
 <CAFrGgTRytOKGJNyYsS_sxaH6vQweoimyw_LXKs_Ww-0inXPrYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkW7N3eqsfDZLEYtEyPq5r1JB6__Uo11h_-nJR3G8_Jxrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10093985-8707-4274-8349-F7157EEEF65E@comcast.net>


> On Sep 3, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> My dad shops out prototype PCB manufacturing to a firm called Omnitrace (
> http://www.pcb4u.com). He sends them layouts and they send back bare boards
> which he stuffs in the lab ... He says the price is the best he's found,
> there's no minimum run size (not sure on the plated edge connectors,
> though) and the turnaround is very quick. He had samples of I think an
> 8-layer board they had done for him recently that he showed me last time we
> visited and they were very nicely done. I haven't gotten to the point of
> doing layout yet ... all my projects are still on the bread board ... but
> when I do eventually run off some boards, I expect to use those guys.

I had similar experience with a different outfit, pcb-pool (http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/index.html).  They are based in Europe; my most recent shipment from there came from Ireland, though headquarters may be in Germany.  They do quantity one, but of course discounts for modestly larger runs.  Multi layer; I've done 2 and 4 layers.  One convenience is that they accept Eagle CAD layout files directly, they don't need them converted to Gerber format.

They also include (if requested) an SMD solder paste stencil.  I foolishly didn't do that last time, should have.  Will next time.  There are some good articles around (I just pointed to one a few days ago) about how to do SMD assembly with solder paste and stencils using home equipment.

	paul



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  4 09:19:49 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 07:19:49 -0700
Subject: IBM 1620
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbPqK6uNntbsA3gvPScRdEOXAuwMa6sGk+i4c2jbwQz4Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <67A2F0C6-5482-4A25-9CCF-87C04CE26C9F@aol.com>,
 <55DF4F3A.905@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <CABGJBueGqPeBhVmqPBBWh4N0_K7o_kXJHp8HBGsjJGuthQ8bjw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <082101d0e0fb$a0bd2d70$e2378850$@gmail.com>,
 <CAM6XJCn-Hvc6GcXHpKizPYNRqNBqyW3zhgCKDbzLBj8hmV+pQA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20150827220837.4624efeb@asrock.bcwi.net>,
 <CAPhLQbPqK6uNntbsA3gvPScRdEOXAuwMa6sGk+i4c2jbwQz4Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1243D0D4C232A24DE61BC35A3570@phx.gbl>

On making PC boards, we had a shop mix the top and bottom
layers. They tried to tell us it didn't matter but our boards
had an edge connector, with different fingers on each side.
It was expensive high temperature PC board as well.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep  4 10:04:13 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 10:04:13 -0500
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55E9B2ED.7080201@charter.net>

Yup.  I have done the same kind of thing with GALs (which offer the
convenience of re-programming, though not the longevity of a PAL.)

Did this as a backup for the Signetics chips on a Mark 8.

You can see them in this Flickr stream - I had both "normal" and open
collector variants, and designed both chip-specific and generic boards
for chip replacement (I expect to run into the issue with DTL as well).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100660569 at N02/albums/72157635953237715

BTW, I sent my PCBs out to Gold Phoenix PCB - http://www.goldphoenixpcb.com/

JRJ

On 9/3/2015 10:49 PM, dwight wrote:
> A pal could have worked as well.
> Dwight
>  
>  		 	   		  
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep  4 10:09:03 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 10:09:03 -0500
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E92333.3010604@sydex.com>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl> <55E92333.3010604@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55E9B40F.1060407@charter.net>

On 9/3/2015 11:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/03/2015 08:49 PM, dwight wrote:
>> A pal could have worked as well. Dwight
> 
> A GAL should also be useful--and maybe a bit more flexible.  To emulate
> the OC outputs, one can simply manipulate the output enable so that a
> '1' output is High-Z and '0' is, well, '0'.   I believe individual oput
> tristate control is allowed in non-registered mode for GALs.  A PALCE
> should also work.
> 
> A 20 pin PLCC should fit on a DIP-sized PCB.
> 
> --Chuck

Yup - see my other post on this topic, though I used a through-hole GAL
rather than a PLCC (the PLCC is really a good idea).

The issue with OC, though, might be what it was used for.  If it was
just used for wired OR / wired AND then, yeah, your idea should work OK.

JRJ

From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Fri Sep  4 10:48:05 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:48:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Since the capacity of 2x RF31 and 1x RF71 disks is a little bit low
> for VMS with some compilersi (~400MB every disk), I've looked for a bigger
> disk, at least for the sytem itself. (I've already relocated the pagefile
> to the 2nd disk).
> Ok, there are RF73 available at ebay US for $100, but addiotional $50 and more
> for shipping is to much, I have to pay additional 19% of customs VAT on top

The RF73 is very large and heavy even by the standards of the time so
shipping would be a burden.  I managed a VAX4000 Model 500 cluster which had
a couple dozen RF73s in four cabinets for ten or more years but I never
tried to fix a disk, the red light would come on and I would put another one
in, the disk management never went beyond that.

I have an RF73 sitting on a shelf, it was the last disk that I pulled and
replaced before the system was scrapped, I also used my last spare to
replace it.  I replaced a lot of RF73s, they did not seem to have an
especially long life.

I was once told that Compaq had SCSI to DSSI adaptors to allow the use of
SCSI disks in old DSSI machines.  The TF series of tape drives were SCSI
drives with DSSI adaptors so that is believable, that also opens up the
possibility of stripping a TF tape drive for parts and trying to build your
own SCSI to DSSI adaptor.

You can talk to the DSSI interface and discuss life with some of the DSSI
devices but it has been a long time and I have forgotten all the spells.  I
have the following recipe for talking to a TF867 tape and library, perhaps
you can use this information to obtain information from the RF73:

	$ set device /noavailable $1$mia0:
	$ mcr sysgen
	SYSGEN> load fydriver
	SYSGEN> connect FYA01/noadaptor
	SYSGEN> exit
	$ set host /dup /server=MSCP$DUP /task=params T8TTSZ

The string T8TTSZ is the identifier that DSSI interface applied to the TF867
and, AFAIR, you can learn that by the use of the show commands when the VAX
is at the >>> boot prompt.  I have only worked on Alphas for the last 20
years and I don't remember the syntax anymore and when I do remember, I mix
it up with the Alpha SRM syntax.

How many dead RF73 drives are actually dead?  If the failure is not in the
HDA then you might be able to put it right.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 10:54:15 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 11:54:15 -0400
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <55E9B2ED.7080201@charter.net>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>
 <55E9B2ED.7080201@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmAO6T8-B+z+Hsb30tno9_R3iqsJsTS1Bop10TMJoMQHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> BTW, I sent my PCBs out to Gold Phoenix PCB - http://www.goldphoenixpcb.com/

I have also used Gold Phoenix PCB with good results (when I need a
dozen or more small boards - they do runs of 155 sq in down to about
1"x2".  You get as many boards as fit in one panel for one price).

-ethan

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep  4 11:07:33 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 11:07:33 -0500
Subject: raised floor possibly available
Message-ID: <002b01d0e72b$cf6ef5f0$6e4ce1d0$@classiccmp.org>

A building next door to one of my offices was a datacenter/colo facility. It
has sat vacant for quite a few years, and the new owner contacted me
yesterday about some unrelated items. I asked about the raised floor and she
said "all available, dirt cheap, come over and look".

 

Sometime next week I will go take a look, but I know folks here have
occasionally expressed interest in getting a section of raised floor for
their "machine room". If there's interest, let me know.

 

Best,

 

J


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 11:19:30 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 09:19:30 -0700
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>

I just acquired a KA640 VAX in a BA215 (thanks Josh) which has one
working RF30 and one dead RF30 with failure code 300B(X). I don't have
copies of any manuals which list the error codes. I just figure at
this point that the drive is dead and there is nothing that can be
done to try to fix it.

The working 150MB RF30 is too small for a useful VMS system although
it would be a decent size if I set up the system as a PDP-11 with an
M7554-PB KDJ11-SB CPU instead of the VAX KA640.

For VMS use I would either set up this system with a CMD Q-Bus SCSI
controller, or use an HSD10 in a BA350 to connect SCSI disks to the
DSSI controller.

>>>SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 2
Starting DUP server...
Copyright ? 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation
DRVEXR V1.1  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
DRVTST V1.1  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
HISTRY V1.0  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
ERASE  V1.3  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
PARAMS V1.2  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
DIRECT V1.0  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
End of directory

Task Name? PARAMS
Copyright ? 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation

PARAMS> STATUS

Configuration:
  Node R3Q0UA is an RF30 controller
  Software RFX V103 built on  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
  Electronics module name is ZG95105350
  Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X)
  Last known unit failure code 300B(X)
  In 100000 power-on hours, power has cycled 216 times
  System time is  5-MAY-1989 13:21:44

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep  4 11:45:33 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:45:33 -0700
Subject: Keys resurfaces
Message-ID: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>

Saw this in AFC

Another water damaged collection heading to the landfill

--

Subject: Houston (and everywhere else), we have ... an opportunity
From: hlctminfo at gmail.com
Injection-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:37:06 +0000

My name is John Keys, and I incorporated the Houston Computer Museum in May=
  2003 as 501(c)(3) non-profit.

I've been good at collecting things.  I've have various PDPs, an HP3000, SE=
L 810A, SDS 910, and a Cray YMP/EL8.  I have an IBM 083 card sorter and sev=
eral keypunchs (models 024, 026, 029 and 129).  I have over 1,200 books and=
  manuals.  And those are just a small sample.

That's the good news.

The bad news is that it's all in storage, in my home, or in a 3,300 square-=
foot warehouse.  I don't have exhibit space.  You might have heard that it =
rains in Houston;  the warehouse has flood damage that needs to be mitigate=
d.

I haven't been good at getting the 21st century to work for me, and this is=
  where you come in.  I need a functional web page, one that makes it easier=
  for people to donate online.  I need a contact email link that works.

If you can help me get this done, I'd be grateful.

What's at stake?  I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this, all t=
hat equipment will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a land=
fill.  And all of that documentation will go with it.

If you can help me with web hosting and web page design, let me know.  Advi=
ce is nice -- I've had lots of it -- but what I really need is people who c=
an step up and do what I haven't done. I need help in cleaning all these ar=
tifacts that were damaged by the flood. Contact me by email discuss how you=
  can help.

If there are enough people out there who care about this stuff, we can do t=
his.  You don't have to live in Houston.  You don't have to live on the Gul=
f Coast.  It's even OK if you don't live in Texas.


To donate online, go to http://www.hlctm.org/services.htm and click on "Don=
ate."



To contact me, send email to hcmjkeys at yahoo dot com.


Once we have something presentable, come visit.  And thanks very much for r=
eading this.



John Keys











From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep  4 11:49:04 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:49:04 -0700
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>

On 9/3/15 9:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> I'm looking into a road trip from Champaign  to Maine via Indy, Detroit,
> Windsor, Niagra Falls, Buffalo or 1000 Islands, Syracuse to Boston area,
> and up to Maine. Not sure about the return Route.

> I have talked to a few list members about dropping off/picking up items.

Make sure all of your ducks are lined up if you are taking equipment in and
out of Canada.




From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep  4 11:52:20 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:52:20 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
>
> Thanks to all that haven't answered.

You do understand that noone is *required* to help, do you? This message 
really sends the wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...

People try to help, as best as they can. When you are not getting help, 
just accept that people either cannot help, or do not have time to help. 
No point in sulking or posting provoking messages to try and get more 
results.

As for the actual question, I can't help. I know a little bit about 
DSSI, and have used a disk or three over the years, but I have never 
seen any proper documentation for them anywhere, and have not really 
heard of any people possessing that information either, so I am not at 
all surprised by the lack of replies.

Now, please act a little more adult, or I'll happily put you in my kill 
file.

	Johnny


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 11:55:25 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:55:25 -0400
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. ALL the ducks.

Several of us have been bounced at the border for trying to bring in
larger machines. Basically, if it is something that is not a laptop or
PeeCee or normal consumer electronics, expect trouble. It is not 1998
anymore.

--
Will

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 9/3/15 9:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking into a road trip from Champaign  to Maine via Indy, Detroit,
>> Windsor, Niagra Falls, Buffalo or 1000 Islands, Syracuse to Boston area,
>> and up to Maine. Not sure about the return Route.
>
>
>> I have talked to a few list members about dropping off/picking up items.
>
>
> Make sure all of your ducks are lined up if you are taking equipment in and
> out of Canada.
>
>
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep  4 12:00:21 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 19:00:21 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E9CE25.1000301@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-04 18:19, Glen Slick wrote:
> I just acquired a KA640 VAX in a BA215 (thanks Josh) which has one
> working RF30 and one dead RF30 with failure code 300B(X). I don't have
> copies of any manuals which list the error codes. I just figure at
> this point that the drive is dead and there is nothing that can be
> done to try to fix it.

You could/should try and run some diagnostics. Maybe they can print out 
something more intelligible than just an error code?

> The working 150MB RF30 is too small for a useful VMS system although
> it would be a decent size if I set up the system as a PDP-11 with an
> M7554-PB KDJ11-SB CPU instead of the VAX KA640.

Be aware that no PDP-11 system knows about DSSI. There is one Qbus DSSI 
controller that looks like a simple MSCP controller, and that one should 
work fine. Any that exposes more of DSSI will be a non-starter with a 
PDP-11.

	Johnny


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep  4 12:01:24 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:01:24 -0500
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <003301d0e733$552a5390$ff7efab0$@classiccmp.org>

As always, my hosting company will gladly provide hosting services to any classic computing related website at no charge.

I'll send him an email offering same. I don't want to offer free web development though, someone else can step up with that work if they wish :)



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 12:14:24 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 10:14:24 -0700
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55E9CE25.1000301@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CE25.1000301@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLDUQOJ8y2tfqa0HnRiU=PPdB32dheh5jBaRvofkvTR2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> The working 150MB RF30 is too small for a useful VMS system although
>> it would be a decent size if I set up the system as a PDP-11 with an
>> M7554-PB KDJ11-SB CPU instead of the VAX KA640.
>
> Be aware that no PDP-11 system knows about DSSI. There is one Qbus DSSI
> controller that looks like a simple MSCP controller, and that one should
> work fine. Any that exposes more of DSSI will be a non-starter with a
> PDP-11.

Yep, I have at least a couple of M7769 KFQSA DSSI controllers which
present a standard MSCP interface to the host.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Sep  4 12:14:29 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:14:29 -0400
Subject: OmniUSB - further boards to make
Message-ID: <1fdb1.7f995eb9.431b2b75@aol.com>

the  SMECC museum is a canadate  if   our    onmnibus  8  still runs. have 
not  powered it  up in 20  years.
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/2015 1:37:34 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
spacewar at gmail.com writes:

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 12:25:31 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:25:31 -0400
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se>
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:52 PM


> On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
>> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has 
>> ever seen a DSSI disk...
>>
>> Thanks to all that haven't answered.
>
> You do understand that noone is *required* to 
> help, do you? This message really sends the 
> wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
>
> People try to help, as best as they can. When 
> you are not getting help, just accept that 
> people either cannot help, or do not have time 
> to help. No point in sulking or posting 
> provoking messages to try and get more results.

Right on. As a matter of fact, instead of getting 
*more* results, alienating people with rude and 
sarcastic comments just might persuade someone who 
could/would have helped you the next time to not 
bother taking the time...

m 


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Fri Sep  4 13:24:05 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:24:05 -0500
Subject: Ongoing debug of RL8A controller
Message-ID: <5D5FE63BF4E4412A9A0DC9CC513FBF85@CharlesHPLaptop>

I still can't get my RL8A (M8433 RL01/02 disk controller card) working again 
in my 8/A system. It won't boot from the RL02 any more.

In my backplane I found it to be mechanically sensitive (AJRLAC diskless 
controller test would show errors always involving bits 4-7 being 
unexpectedly 0's), and when the card was flexed gently the errors would 
increase dramatically during the test. No visible bad/missing solder joints 
or broken traces.
Recently I sent the card to a list member who tried it in his system. He 
could boot OS/8, but when attempting to open a file with EDIT the system 
would crash. This behavior was repeatable and did not occur with his 
controller.

I now have SerialDisk running via Omni-USB, emulating two RK05 drives from 
my laptop, booting OS/8. This works perfectly - until I put the RL8A in the 
backplane!
Then the system won't boot and also corrupts the first part of the boot 
loader that resides at 0020-0045.
However, only the first 7 instructions at 0020-0027 are mangled, and all 
seven words have their most significant six bits set to 0 (for example, 7240 
becomes 0040).

The selects to the various 8234's (open-collector drivers to the data bus) 
are working properly in a scope loop. Figured I was on the right track with 
a bad 8234.
I physically disconnected the middle 4 bits of the DATA0..11 bus (at the 
extender card rather than hack up the board)... system still won't boot, 
still corrupting locations as described.
Next, I disconnected the entire data bus, all 12 bits, same problem! So 
whatever is the trouble it's NOT an 8234 pulling on some of DATA0..11 as I 
thought!

I am starting to think there is a defect with the DMA (aka Data Break) 
facility on either this card OR even the CPU itself...  everything else in
the system is programmed I/O, not DMA.

Obviously something is pulling down the memory-data bus when it shouldn't 
be, and writing zeroes over the upper six bits of some words, but on this 
controller card there are only inputs from the memory data bus MD0..11. It 
has its own memory address registers for DMA which drive the MA0..11 lines.
I checked the various signals coming out of the card and (at least 
statically) none of them are in the "wrong" state...

Any thoughts on testing the DMA facility?
thanks
Charles


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Sep  4 13:27:46 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:27:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>

While I've not yet completely forgiven Mr. Keys for swiping a van load of 
VAX systems (including a bunch of MicroVAX 3100, 4000/VLC, etc) over a 
decade ago when I had offered him some wide format printers and large 
monitors, I'm willing to talk to him and see what can be done if others 
are also interested in this.


On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:

> Saw this in AFC
>
> Another water damaged collection heading to the landfill
>
> --
>
> Subject: Houston (and everywhere else), we have ... an opportunity
> From: hlctminfo at gmail.com
> Injection-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:37:06 +0000
>
> My name is John Keys, and I incorporated the Houston Computer Museum in May=
> 2003 as 501(c)(3) non-profit.
>
> I've been good at collecting things.  I've have various PDPs, an HP3000, SE=
> L 810A, SDS 910, and a Cray YMP/EL8.  I have an IBM 083 card sorter and sev=
> eral keypunchs (models 024, 026, 029 and 129).  I have over 1,200 books and=
> manuals.  And those are just a small sample.
>
> That's the good news.
>
> The bad news is that it's all in storage, in my home, or in a 3,300 square-=
> foot warehouse.  I don't have exhibit space.  You might have heard that it =
> rains in Houston;  the warehouse has flood damage that needs to be mitigate=
> d.
>
> I haven't been good at getting the 21st century to work for me, and this is=
> where you come in.  I need a functional web page, one that makes it easier=
> for people to donate online.  I need a contact email link that works.
>
> If you can help me get this done, I'd be grateful.
>
> What's at stake?  I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this, all t=
> hat equipment will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a land=
> fill.  And all of that documentation will go with it.
>
> If you can help me with web hosting and web page design, let me know.  Advi=
> ce is nice -- I've had lots of it -- but what I really need is people who c=
> an step up and do what I haven't done. I need help in cleaning all these ar=
> tifacts that were damaged by the flood. Contact me by email discuss how you=
> can help.
>
> If there are enough people out there who care about this stuff, we can do t=
> his.  You don't have to live in Houston.  You don't have to live on the Gul=
> f Coast.  It's even OK if you don't live in Texas.
>
>
> To donate online, go to http://www.hlctm.org/services.htm and click on "Don=
> ate."
>
>
>
> To contact me, send email to hcmjkeys at yahoo dot com.
>
>
> Once we have something presentable, come visit.  And thanks very much for r=
> eading this.
>
>
>
> John Keys
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Sep  4 13:30:07 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:

> Yes. ALL the ducks.
>
> Several of us have been bounced at the border for trying to bring in 
> larger machines. Basically, if it is something that is not a laptop or 
> PeeCee or normal consumer electronics, expect trouble. It is not 1998 
> anymore.

Do "Made in USA" markings still suffice when transporting from Canada to 
the USA?

From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 13:30:33 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:30:33 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150904183033.GA32746@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> >Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has ever seen a DSSI disk...
> >
> >Thanks to all that haven't answered.
> 
> You do understand that noone is *required* to help, do you? This message 
> really sends the wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
> 
> People try to help, as best as they can. When you are not getting help, 
> just accept that people either cannot help, or do not have time to help. 
> No point in sulking or posting provoking messages to try and get more 
> results.
> 
> As for the actual question, I can't help. I know a little bit about 
> DSSI, and have used a disk or three over the years, but I have never 
> seen any proper documentation for them anywhere, and have not really 
> heard of any people possessing that information either, so I am not at 
> all surprised by the lack of replies.
> 
> Now, please act a little more adult, or I'll happily put you in my kill 
> file.
> 
> 	Johnny

Yes.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 13:31:21 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:31:21 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
Message-ID: <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de>

Mike Stein wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se>
> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:52 PM
> 
> 
> >On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >
> >>Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has 
> >>ever seen a DSSI disk...
> >>
> >>Thanks to all that haven't answered.
> >
> >You do understand that noone is *required* to 
> >help, do you? This message really sends the 
> >wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
> >
> >People try to help, as best as they can. When 
> >you are not getting help, just accept that 
> >people either cannot help, or do not have time 
> >to help. No point in sulking or posting 
> >provoking messages to try and get more results.
> 
> Right on. As a matter of fact, instead of getting 
> *more* results, alienating people with rude and 
> sarcastic comments just might persuade someone who 
> could/would have helped you the next time to not 
> bother taking the time...
> 
> m 

...but I think all that is much better than silence.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From leec2124 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 13:33:27 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 11:33:27 -0700
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVHj=Jug7sF8uc=krOSo1u7oc60wXDm+samJ7HZtSpX=1Q@mail.gmail.com>

" I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this, all that equipment
will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a landfill.  And all
of that documentation will go with it."

A web page is not the solution to his problem. A new home for his
collection is.

Lee C.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:

> While I've not yet completely forgiven Mr. Keys for swiping a van load of
> VAX systems (including a bunch of MicroVAX 3100, 4000/VLC, etc) over a
> decade ago when I had offered him some wide format printers and large
> monitors, I'm willing to talk to him and see what can be done if others are
> also interested in this.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> Saw this in AFC
>>
>> Another water damaged collection heading to the landfill
>>
>> --
>>
>> Subject: Houston (and everywhere else), we have ... an opportunity
>> From: hlctminfo at gmail.com
>> Injection-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:37:06 +0000
>>
>> My name is John Keys, and I incorporated the Houston Computer Museum in
>> May=
>> 2003 as 501(c)(3) non-profit.
>>
>> I've been good at collecting things.  I've have various PDPs, an HP3000,
>> SE=
>> L 810A, SDS 910, and a Cray YMP/EL8.  I have an IBM 083 card sorter and
>> sev=
>> eral keypunchs (models 024, 026, 029 and 129).  I have over 1,200 books
>> and=
>> manuals.  And those are just a small sample.
>>
>> That's the good news.
>>
>> The bad news is that it's all in storage, in my home, or in a 3,300
>> square-=
>> foot warehouse.  I don't have exhibit space.  You might have heard that
>> it =
>> rains in Houston;  the warehouse has flood damage that needs to be
>> mitigate=
>> d.
>>
>> I haven't been good at getting the 21st century to work for me, and this
>> is=
>> where you come in.  I need a functional web page, one that makes it
>> easier=
>> for people to donate online.  I need a contact email link that works.
>>
>> If you can help me get this done, I'd be grateful.
>>
>> What's at stake?  I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this, all
>> t=
>> hat equipment will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a
>> land=
>> fill.  And all of that documentation will go with it.
>>
>> If you can help me with web hosting and web page design, let me know.
>> Advi=
>> ce is nice -- I've had lots of it -- but what I really need is people who
>> c=
>> an step up and do what I haven't done. I need help in cleaning all these
>> ar=
>> tifacts that were damaged by the flood. Contact me by email discuss how
>> you=
>> can help.
>>
>> If there are enough people out there who care about this stuff, we can do
>> t=
>> his.  You don't have to live in Houston.  You don't have to live on the
>> Gul=
>> f Coast.  It's even OK if you don't live in Texas.
>>
>>
>> To donate online, go to http://www.hlctm.org/services.htm and click on
>> "Don=
>> ate."
>>
>>
>>
>> To contact me, send email to hcmjkeys at yahoo dot com.
>>
>>
>> Once we have something presentable, come visit.  And thanks very much for
>> r=
>> eading this.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Keys
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 13:44:06 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 14:44:06 -0400
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcXLELZwwkn4dsDvfnZ98phEi_VoXDDSi=AcdtuivKLZQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Do "Made in USA" markings still suffice when transporting from Canada to the
> USA?

Not for things more complicated than typical consumer electronics.

--
Will

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 13:45:03 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 19:45:03 +0100
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>

I am sorry but I think he is living in airy fairy land if he thinks folks
will donate to a 70 year old who is now threatening to chuck stuff away and
re-cycle it rather than give others the chance to "make a go" of it with no
clear definition of how the money is to be spent.....

It seems to happen all the time with collectables (I must admit I have a
loft room full, and I don't have anywhere to exhibit) but to me this needs
PEOPLE and then a PLAN and lastly a Kick Starter project to get it
exhibitable, if indeed any of it is exhibit able. I can't see any responses
in a.f.c but if any one can let me know what the money is needed for and how
its going to be spent then I could start considering donating...

Dave Wade

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
> Sent: 04 September 2015 19:28
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Keys resurfaces
> 
> While I've not yet completely forgiven Mr. Keys for swiping a van load of
VAX
> systems (including a bunch of MicroVAX 3100, 4000/VLC, etc) over a decade
> ago when I had offered him some wide format printers and large monitors,
> I'm willing to talk to him and see what can be done if others are also
> interested in this.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> > Saw this in AFC
> >
> > Another water damaged collection heading to the landfill
> >
> > --
> >
> > Subject: Houston (and everywhere else), we have ... an opportunity
> > From: hlctminfo at gmail.com
> > Injection-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:37:06 +0000
> >
> > My name is John Keys, and I incorporated the Houston Computer Museum
> > in May=
> > 2003 as 501(c)(3) non-profit.
> >
> > I've been good at collecting things.  I've have various PDPs, an
> > HP3000, SE= L 810A, SDS 910, and a Cray YMP/EL8.  I have an IBM 083
> > card sorter and sev= eral keypunchs (models 024, 026, 029 and 129).  I
> > have over 1,200 books and= manuals.  And those are just a small sample.
> >
> > That's the good news.
> >
> > The bad news is that it's all in storage, in my home, or in a 3,300
> > square-= foot warehouse.  I don't have exhibit space.  You might have
> > heard that it = rains in Houston;  the warehouse has flood damage that
> > needs to be mitigate= d.
> >
> > I haven't been good at getting the 21st century to work for me, and
> > this is= where you come in.  I need a functional web page, one that
> > makes it easier= for people to donate online.  I need a contact email
link
> that works.
> >
> > If you can help me get this done, I'd be grateful.
> >
> > What's at stake?  I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this,
> > all t= hat equipment will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or
> > dumped in a land= fill.  And all of that documentation will go with it.
> >
> > If you can help me with web hosting and web page design, let me know.
> > Advi= ce is nice -- I've had lots of it -- but what I really need is
> > people who c= an step up and do what I haven't done. I need help in
> > cleaning all these ar= tifacts that were damaged by the flood. Contact
> > me by email discuss how you= can help.
> >
> > If there are enough people out there who care about this stuff, we can
> > do t= his.  You don't have to live in Houston.  You don't have to live
> > on the Gul= f Coast.  It's even OK if you don't live in Texas.
> >
> >
> > To donate online, go to http://www.hlctm.org/services.htm and click on
> > "Don= ate."
> >
> >
> >
> > To contact me, send email to hcmjkeys at yahoo dot com.
> >
> >
> > Once we have something presentable, come visit.  And thanks very much
> > for r= eading this.
> >
> >
> >
> > John Keys
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


From ian at platinum.net  Fri Sep  4 13:45:15 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 11:45:15 -0700
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>

Last year, I made a 10 hour round-trip from Canada to the US to pick up a Northstar Horizon.  Upon returning to Canada with it, I had a long conversation with Canada Customs about why I would make a 10-hour day-trip to the US to pick up a ?piece of obsolete junk? unless it had some real value, and if it had real value, Her Majesty wanted taxes on that value.  He suggested that next time I bring with me printed copies of any paper trail, such as emails offering the ?junk? for free or cheap, examples of eBay listings showing the actual value, etc.

YMMV

Ian

> On Sep 4, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:
> 
>> Yes. ALL the ducks.
>> 
>> Several of us have been bounced at the border for trying to bring in larger machines. Basically, if it is something that is not a laptop or PeeCee or normal consumer electronics, expect trouble. It is not 1998 anymore.
> 
> Do "Made in USA" markings still suffice when transporting from Canada to the USA?
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=FDC0DD56533211E5A5F2547493ED0201


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 13:46:55 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 14:46:55 -0400
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>

> Last year, I made a 10 hour round-trip from Canada to the US to pick up a Northstar Horizon.  Upon returning to Canada with it, I had a long conversation with Canada Customs about why I would make a 10-hour day-trip to the US to pick up a ?piece of obsolete junk? unless it had some real value, and if it had real value, Her Majesty wanted taxes on that value.  He suggested that next time I bring with me printed copies of any paper trail, such as emails offering the ?junk? for free or cheap, examples of eBay listings showing the actual value, etc.

And the Canadian side is the nice side!

--
Will

From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 13:57:19 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:57:19 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150904185719.GD32746@beast.freibergnet.de>

Glen Slick wrote:

> I just acquired a KA640 VAX in a BA215 (thanks Josh) which has one
> working RF30 and one dead RF30 with failure code 300B(X). I don't have
> copies of any manuals which list the error codes. I just figure at
> this point that the drive is dead and there is nothing that can be
> done to try to fix it.

Ive "fixed" a dead RF31, but the error was A00something.
Is thedisk spinning up? Is the head assembly "ratteling" after the spin
up?
> 
> The working 150MB RF30 is too small for a useful VMS system although
> it would be a decent size if I set up the system as a PDP-11 with an
> M7554-PB KDJ11-SB CPU instead of the VAX KA640.

Hmm... does the KDJ11-SB support DSSI disks? Don't know...
> 
> For VMS use I would either set up this system with a CMD Q-Bus SCSI
> controller, or use an HSD10 in a BA350 to connect SCSI disks to the
> DSSI controller.

Don't have an HSD10 and it seems that none is available to a fair price in
Europe.

> 
> >>>SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 2
> Starting DUP server...
> Copyright ? 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation
> DRVEXR V1.1  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> DRVTST V1.1  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> HISTRY V1.0  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> ERASE  V1.3  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> PARAMS V1.2  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> DIRECT V1.0  D  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
> End of directory
> 
> Task Name? PARAMS
> Copyright ? 1988  Digital Equipment Corporation
> 
> PARAMS> STATUS
> 
> Configuration:
>   Node R3Q0UA is an RF30 controller
>   Software RFX V103 built on  5-MAY-1989 13:18:42
>   Electronics module name is ZG95105350
>   Unit is inoperative, error code 300B(X)
>   Last known unit failure code 300B(X)
>   In 100000 power-on hours, power has cycled 216 times
>   System time is  5-MAY-1989 13:21:44


Exactly 100000 hours?

My RF73 has the error 3304(X)...it where really interesting what this
means.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 14:01:14 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 21:01:14 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55E9CE25.1000301@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509040915500.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <CAM2UOwLrMU=kwo3Krz-4fp5VL0uyBEHFykm6-e=0nn1_7Jy-ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CE25.1000301@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150904190114.GE32746@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-09-04 18:19, Glen Slick wrote:
> >I just acquired a KA640 VAX in a BA215 (thanks Josh) which has one
> >working RF30 and one dead RF30 with failure code 300B(X). I don't have
> >copies of any manuals which list the error codes. I just figure at
> >this point that the drive is dead and there is nothing that can be
> >done to try to fix it.
> 
> You could/should try and run some diagnostics. Maybe they can print out 
> something more intelligible than just an error code?

The can dump out several statistices and even registers from the MC68000
CPU at the time the error was occuring, that's documented, but not more.
The Users Manual says that the error codes could be found in the service
manual, but I don#?t think that there is one available for the DSSI disks
on the net.
> 
> >The working 150MB RF30 is too small for a useful VMS system although
> >it would be a decent size if I set up the system as a PDP-11 with an
> >M7554-PB KDJ11-SB CPU instead of the VAX KA640.
> 
> Be aware that no PDP-11 system knows about DSSI. There is one Qbus DSSI 
> controller that looks like a simple MSCP controller, and that one should 
> work fine. Any that exposes more of DSSI will be a non-starter with a 
> PDP-11.
> 
> 	Johnny

Such small drives was meant for paging/swap locally, not more.
This makes sense in a cluster environment where the machine boots from
network and the Users data are on the net also.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 14:07:20 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 15:07:20 -0400
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>

> It seems to happen all the time with collectables (I must admit I have a
> loft room full, and I don't have anywhere to exhibit) but to me this needs
> PEOPLE and then a PLAN and lastly a Kick Starter project to get it
> exhibitable, if indeed any of it is exhibit able. I can't see any responses
> in a.f.c but if any one can let me know what the money is needed for and how
> its going to be spent then I could start considering donating...

Consider, however, that Keys and the Houston Computer Museum has been
sort of a black hole for the past 15 years. I do not know if anyone
has really seen any sort of exhibit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWogDZ9weSs

If a museum did not materialize when he was 55 or 60, they probably
are not going to materialize at 70 or 75.

And if the Houston Computer Museum is a proper museum, there will be a
clause in the bylaws guiding the disposition of the artifacts to other
501c3 entities.

--
Will

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Sep  4 14:54:56 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 14:54:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041450510.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:

>> It seems to happen all the time with collectables (I must admit I have 
>> a loft room full, and I don't have anywhere to exhibit) but to me this 
>> needs PEOPLE and then a PLAN and lastly a Kick Starter project to get 
>> it exhibitable, if indeed any of it is exhibit able. I can't see any 
>> responses in a.f.c but if any one can let me know what the money is 
>> needed for and how its going to be spent then I could start considering 
>> donating...
>
> Consider, however, that Keys and the Houston Computer Museum has been 
> sort of a black hole for the past 15 years. I do not know if anyone has 
> really seen any sort of exhibit.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWogDZ9weSs
>
> If a museum did not materialize when he was 55 or 60, they probably are 
> not going to materialize at 70 or 75.
>
> And if the Houston Computer Museum is a proper museum, there will be a 
> clause in the bylaws guiding the disposition of the artifacts to other 
> 501c3 entities.

Keys had a table at VCF SW 3.0 but I'm not sure if that really counts as 
an exhibit.

http://www.computerculture.org/events/vcfsw3/

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep  4 14:49:01 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 15:49:01 -0400
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <CAG_uPVHj=Jug7sF8uc=krOSo1u7oc60wXDm+samJ7HZtSpX=1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CAG_uPVHj=Jug7sF8uc=krOSo1u7oc60wXDm+samJ7HZtSpX=1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVcAcDMSZbxgbf6PS5GEM-55y-+adqzpKJsZznmSQ03UQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree; it seems like if he really needed to raise some money, he could
offer even a few of those choice pieces to other collectors ... sounds like
he's got plenty of stuff other collectors would offer good money for, if
it's not completely soaked or corroded out ...

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Lee Courtney <leec2124 at gmail.com> wrote:

> " I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this, all that equipment
> will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a landfill.  And all
> of that documentation will go with it."
>
> A web page is not the solution to his problem. A new home for his
> collection is.
>
> Lee C.
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > While I've not yet completely forgiven Mr. Keys for swiping a van load of
> > VAX systems (including a bunch of MicroVAX 3100, 4000/VLC, etc) over a
> > decade ago when I had offered him some wide format printers and large
> > monitors, I'm willing to talk to him and see what can be done if others
> are
> > also interested in this.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> >
> > Saw this in AFC
> >>
> >> Another water damaged collection heading to the landfill
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Subject: Houston (and everywhere else), we have ... an opportunity
> >> From: hlctminfo at gmail.com
> >> Injection-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 15:37:06 +0000
> >>
> >> My name is John Keys, and I incorporated the Houston Computer Museum in
> >> May=
> >> 2003 as 501(c)(3) non-profit.
> >>
> >> I've been good at collecting things.  I've have various PDPs, an HP3000,
> >> SE=
> >> L 810A, SDS 910, and a Cray YMP/EL8.  I have an IBM 083 card sorter and
> >> sev=
> >> eral keypunchs (models 024, 026, 029 and 129).  I have over 1,200 books
> >> and=
> >> manuals.  And those are just a small sample.
> >>
> >> That's the good news.
> >>
> >> The bad news is that it's all in storage, in my home, or in a 3,300
> >> square-=
> >> foot warehouse.  I don't have exhibit space.  You might have heard that
> >> it =
> >> rains in Houston;  the warehouse has flood damage that needs to be
> >> mitigate=
> >> d.
> >>
> >> I haven't been good at getting the 21st century to work for me, and this
> >> is=
> >> where you come in.  I need a functional web page, one that makes it
> >> easier=
> >> for people to donate online.  I need a contact email link that works.
> >>
> >> If you can help me get this done, I'd be grateful.
> >>
> >> What's at stake?  I'm 70 years old, and if I can't make a go of this,
> all
> >> t=
> >> hat equipment will get recycled or hauled off for scrap or dumped in a
> >> land=
> >> fill.  And all of that documentation will go with it.
> >>
> >> If you can help me with web hosting and web page design, let me know.
> >> Advi=
> >> ce is nice -- I've had lots of it -- but what I really need is people
> who
> >> c=
> >> an step up and do what I haven't done. I need help in cleaning all these
> >> ar=
> >> tifacts that were damaged by the flood. Contact me by email discuss how
> >> you=
> >> can help.
> >>
> >> If there are enough people out there who care about this stuff, we can
> do
> >> t=
> >> his.  You don't have to live in Houston.  You don't have to live on the
> >> Gul=
> >> f Coast.  It's even OK if you don't live in Texas.
> >>
> >>
> >> To donate online, go to http://www.hlctm.org/services.htm and click on
> >> "Don=
> >> ate."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To contact me, send email to hcmjkeys at yahoo dot com.
> >>
> >>
> >> Once we have something presentable, come visit.  And thanks very much
> for
> >> r=
> >> eading this.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John Keys
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
> --
> Lee Courtney
> +1-650-704-3934 cell
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 15:23:44 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 15:23:44 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOaUJOmt1GsdVrHejwYYhQQ-kDCbNJUeB+rqUqJ-MJ_uw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all the border warnings. That's why I'm trying to keep stuff
small.

Paul

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 1:46 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Last year, I made a 10 hour round-trip from Canada to the US to pick up
> a Northstar Horizon.  Upon returning to Canada with it, I had a long
> conversation with Canada Customs about why I would make a 10-hour day-trip
> to the US to pick up a ?piece of obsolete junk? unless it had some real
> value, and if it had real value, Her Majesty wanted taxes on that value.
> He suggested that next time I bring with me printed copies of any paper
> trail, such as emails offering the ?junk? for free or cheap, examples of
> eBay listings showing the actual value, etc.
>
> And the Canadian side is the nice side!
>
> --
> Will
>

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Sep  4 15:27:34 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:27:34 -0700
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041450510.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041450510.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <55E9FEB6.5090504@jwsss.com>

He got a big collection of SDS systems which I helped store the tape 
drives and printers for.  Al was supposed to get the media, but it never 
got to me to get to Al and back.

thanks
Jim


On 9/4/2015 12:54 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>>> It seems to happen all the time with collectables (I must admit I 
>>> have a loft room full, and I don't have anywhere to exhibit) but to 
>>> me this needs PEOPLE and then a PLAN and lastly a Kick Starter 
>>> project to get it exhibitable, if indeed any of it is exhibit able. 
>>> I can't see any responses in a.f.c but if any one can let me know 
>>> what the money is needed for and how its going to be spent then I 
>>> could start considering donating...
>>
>> Consider, however, that Keys and the Houston Computer Museum has been 
>> sort of a black hole for the past 15 years. I do not know if anyone 
>> has really seen any sort of exhibit.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWogDZ9weSs
>>
>> If a museum did not materialize when he was 55 or 60, they probably 
>> are not going to materialize at 70 or 75.
>>
>> And if the Houston Computer Museum is a proper museum, there will be 
>> a clause in the bylaws guiding the disposition of the artifacts to 
>> other 501c3 entities.
>
> Keys had a table at VCF SW 3.0 but I'm not sure if that really counts 
> as an exhibit.
>
> http://www.computerculture.org/events/vcfsw3/
>
>


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Sep  4 16:04:54 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 16:04:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <55E9FEB6.5090504@jwsss.com>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041450510.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <55E9FEB6.5090504@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041556130.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
> On 9/4/2015 12:54 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:
>> 
>>>> It seems to happen all the time with collectables (I must admit I 
>>>> have a loft room full, and I don't have anywhere to exhibit) but to 
>>>> me this needs PEOPLE and then a PLAN and lastly a Kick Starter 
>>>> project to get it exhibitable, if indeed any of it is exhibit able. I 
>>>> can't see any responses in a.f.c but if any one can let me know what 
>>>> the money is needed for and how its going to be spent then I could 
>>>> start considering donating...
>>> 
>>> Consider, however, that Keys and the Houston Computer Museum has been 
>>> sort of a black hole for the past 15 years. I do not know if anyone 
>>> has really seen any sort of exhibit.
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWogDZ9weSs
>>> 
>>> If a museum did not materialize when he was 55 or 60, they probably 
>>> are not going to materialize at 70 or 75.
>>> 
>>> And if the Houston Computer Museum is a proper museum, there will be a 
>>> clause in the bylaws guiding the disposition of the artifacts to other 
>>> 501c3 entities.
>> 
>> Keys had a table at VCF SW 3.0 but I'm not sure if that really counts 
>> as an exhibit.
>> 
>> http://www.computerculture.org/events/vcfsw3/
>
> He got a big collection of SDS systems which I helped store the tape 
> drives and printers for.  Al was supposed to get the media, but it never 
> got to me to get to Al and back.

Anyone happen to notice this?

Acquisition Policy for the Houston Computer Museum
http://www.hlctm.org/serv02.htm

[...]

"The item should be of museum quality (exceptions will be made for certain 
items). Primary consideration will be given to the museum's ability to 
provide proper care and storage for any artifact or works of art. No item 
should be considered for acquisition if its physical condition exceeds the 
museum's financial ability to provide for its care and preservation."

"The museum must be able to provide proper storage for any acquisition 
under consideration."

[...]

"The museum acknowledges its responsibility to ascertain that items 
offered, whether by purchase, exchange, gift, or bequest, are not stolen, 
wrongfully converted, or acquired under false pretences. All such items 
will be declined."

"If the museum should discover that it has inadvertently acquired an item 
that is proven to have been obtained in violation of the above statement, 
the museum shall seek to return the item to its legal owner or shall seek 
to determine, through outside recognized and competent authorities, the 
proper means of disposition."

[...]

With the storage situation, does this mean he is in violation of his 
501(c)(3) requirements?

What does this mean for that vanload of gear Keys took out from under me 
via false pretenses?

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:14:17 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 17:14:17 -0400
Subject: Keys resurfaces
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041556130.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <55E9CAAD.2050705@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041321550.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <014a01d0e741$d092da80$71b88f80$@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcoaSPd1z_MbyUhxM8n8MP2rf_tko5BYNiXRqJGVBqQcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041450510.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <55E9FEB6.5090504@jwsss.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041556130.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CANij+deTgbBfpL5FC0HP=jGvthOaWMyCS1nh3A9GagBrTjK_yg@mail.gmail.com>

> With the storage situation, does this mean he is in violation of his
> 501(c)(3) requirements?

Probably not, since 501c3 is basically a tax thing. He might be in
violation for not really being "public", however.

> What does this mean for that vanload of gear Keys took out from under me via
> false pretenses?

I might guess that too much time has passed? I do not know anything
about your deal, and why it went sour.

--
Will

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:20:17 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 16:20:17 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 1:46 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Last year, I made a 10 hour round-trip from Canada to the US to pick up a Northstar Horizon.  Upon returning to Canada with it, I had a long conversation with Canada Customs about why I would make a 10-hour day-trip to the US to pick up a ?piece of obsolete junk? unless it had some real value, and if it had real value, Her Majesty wanted taxes on that value.  He suggested that next time I bring with me printed copies of any paper trail, such as emails offering the ?junk? for free or cheap, examples of eBay listings showing the actual value, etc.
>
> And the Canadian side is the nice side!

On my big Canadian ccmp retrieval run last December, we were detailed
for an hour+ while the agents inspected my nearly empty car, read my
email on my phone (found a search for the word "Canada,") and went
through our bags.  On the way back, packed to the gills with old
computers, the US agent laughed, asked "what do you DO with all
that??" and sent us on our way.

Completely anecdotal but jives with other reports I've heard.

-j

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:23:56 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 16:23:56 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFjbHVGG4HyK=T4YOixuonEXtF9b3DGSVGTBBk6g-LsTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On my big Canadian ccmp retrieval run last December, we were detailed

"Detained," of course.  A decent car detailing would have been worth the time.

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 16:26:07 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:26:07 -0300
Subject: Selling brazilian vintage computer gear
Message-ID: <CANdZFKRChfbwJoeHHAkXNsFVEOuFN+YGD5eFedWHk1Z-m_JRmA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear sirs...

Ok, life does nasty things to us, and seems it is my time. Due to personal
and health problems, I'll have to sell some of my collection. As bad as it
is, I can't really afford keeping much of my stuff. I'll save just the nice
gifts I got from friends and my beloved //e "Woz edition".

So, there are some computers that may be of interest to you

- Milmar Laser IIc apple clone - Clone of the Apple //c, but it isn't a //e
- it is a ][c in a case of a //c. Has power supply, original manual and
external slot expansion. $800 o.b.o.

- Prologica Sistema 600 - Clone of the Intertec SuperBrain
- Prologica CP500 - Clone of the TRS-80 model III
- Prologica CP400 (boxed) - Clone of TRS-Color model 1, in the box of a
Timex Sinclair 2068(!)
- Prologica CP300 - Clone of TRS-80 model III, but way portable
- Prologica CP200 - Clone of Sinclair ZX-81
- Microdigital TK95 (boxed) - Clone of Sinclair ZX-Spectrum, but in a
Commodore Plus/4 box (!)

I'll have more interesting things, as soon as I have more time to dig the
pile

Shipping from Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Thanks,
Alexandre

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep  4 16:33:24 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 23:33:24 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-04 20:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Mike Stein wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:52 PM
>>
>>
>>> On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has
>>>> ever seen a DSSI disk...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to all that haven't answered.
>>>
>>> You do understand that noone is *required* to
>>> help, do you? This message really sends the
>>> wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
>>>
>>> People try to help, as best as they can. When
>>> you are not getting help, just accept that
>>> people either cannot help, or do not have time
>>> to help. No point in sulking or posting
>>> provoking messages to try and get more results.
>>
>> Right on. As a matter of fact, instead of getting
>> *more* results, alienating people with rude and
>> sarcastic comments just might persuade someone who
>> could/would have helped you the next time to not
>> bother taking the time...
>>
>> m
>
> ...but I think all that is much better than silence.

Really? Getting people to put you in their kill file is going to make 
things even more silent for you...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep  4 17:24:46 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 17:24:46 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EA1A2E.4060308@charter.net>

On 9/4/2015 1:46 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Last year, I made a 10 hour round-trip from Canada to the US to pick up a Northstar Horizon.  Upon returning to Canada with it, I had a long conversation with Canada Customs about why I would make a 10-hour day-trip to the US to pick up a ?piece of obsolete junk? unless it had some real value, and if it had real value, Her Majesty wanted taxes on that value.  He suggested that next time I bring with me printed copies of any paper trail, such as emails offering the ?junk? for free or cheap, examples of eBay listings showing the actual value, etc.
> 
> And the Canadian side is the nice side!
> 
> --
> Will
> 

They're lonely - just want somebody to talk to.  (Really, that is a JOKE
I am making.)

But....

One time (just barely pre 9/11/2001, IIRC) we were headed South to
Montana after a couple of weeks in Canada, and crossed the border at a
relatively quiet border crossing.  The Canadian side folks talked to us
a pretty long time - we really did wonder if they just wanted someone to
talk to.  Took, maybe, 15 minutes

The US side - maybe 20 *seconds*.

JRJ

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep  4 17:30:55 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 17:30:55 -0500
Subject: no, not retrobrite
Message-ID: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>

Decided to start with the terminals first. I cleaned up and tested the DG
Dasher D200, and it come out fairly good and all tests indicate it's working
fine. No pictures of that.

 

The Dasher TP1 is much more of a hard-luck case, and I just finished
cleaning the top of the top chassis. I did not clean the bottom chassis or
stand or insides yet, so you can see a good comparison of the cleaned top
half and the untouched bottom half. 7 pictures (unfortunately newest to
oldest) are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02

 

No, there's no retrobrite involved. Just a normal spray on household
cleaner, followed by Magic Eraser and a lot of elbow grease. Yep, Magic
Eraser is a wonderful thing.

 

J


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep  4 17:31:49 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 00:31:49 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-09-04 20:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >Mike Stein wrote:
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se>
> >>Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:52 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has
> >>>>ever seen a DSSI disk...
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks to all that haven't answered.
> >>>
> >>>You do understand that noone is *required* to
> >>>help, do you? This message really sends the
> >>>wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
> >>>
> >>>People try to help, as best as they can. When
> >>>you are not getting help, just accept that
> >>>people either cannot help, or do not have time
> >>>to help. No point in sulking or posting
> >>>provoking messages to try and get more results.
> >>
> >>Right on. As a matter of fact, instead of getting
> >>*more* results, alienating people with rude and
> >>sarcastic comments just might persuade someone who
> >>could/would have helped you the next time to not
> >>bother taking the time...
> >>
> >>m
> >
> >...but I think all that is much better than silence.
> 
> Really? Getting people to put you in their kill file is going to make 
> things even more silent for you...
> 
> 	Johnny



He Johnny, clam down.

There was _NO_ Answer at all.

Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
Does this make any difference?

Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac last
year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.

Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old computers,
that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.

I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
off. But: I don't have a killfile.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep  4 17:41:29 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 00:41:29 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 00:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> On 2015-09-04 20:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>> Mike Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:52 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2015-09-04 08:01, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm.. I see, I must be the only one that has
>>>>>> ever seen a DSSI disk...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to all that haven't answered.
>>>>>
>>>>> You do understand that noone is *required* to
>>>>> help, do you? This message really sends the
>>>>> wrong impression, and rubs me the wrong way...
>>>>>
>>>>> People try to help, as best as they can. When
>>>>> you are not getting help, just accept that
>>>>> people either cannot help, or do not have time
>>>>> to help. No point in sulking or posting
>>>>> provoking messages to try and get more results.
>>>>
>>>> Right on. As a matter of fact, instead of getting
>>>> *more* results, alienating people with rude and
>>>> sarcastic comments just might persuade someone who
>>>> could/would have helped you the next time to not
>>>> bother taking the time...
>>>>
>>>> m
>>>
>>> ...but I think all that is much better than silence.
>>
>> Really? Getting people to put you in their kill file is going to make
>> things even more silent for you...
>>
>> 	Johnny
>
>
>
> He Johnny, clam down.
>
> There was _NO_ Answer at all.

Yes. And what is your problem with that? Noone answered, so live with it.

> Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
> answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
> Does this make any difference?

What the hell? There is no indication that people can't read your 
messages. You have gotten plenty of answers in the past. In addition, 
you can yourself also see that your messages reached the list.
If you do not get an answer, it is because people either do not have an 
answer, or else do not want to answer.

Trying to offend them by being sarcastic will most likely not get you 
any more answers. However, it do show, to others reading, that you are 
pretty much expecting and demanding that people respond to your posts. 
Which is a rather child-like behavior. We are not here to satisfy your 
needs.

> Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac last
> year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
> Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.

Who knows how much time they have left. Does that make it ok to offend 
anyone else who is not responding to your every demand?
I think not. You are free to disagree, but in that case I will 
definitely ignore you.

> Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old computers,
> that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
>
> I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
> cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
> off. But: I don't have a killfile.

I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally 
obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care enough 
to actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me 
as it is.
So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They 
can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not have 
to read it.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From connork at connorsdomain.com  Fri Sep  4 17:49:45 2015
From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:49:45 -0400
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55EA2009.3010507@connorsdomain.com>

On 9/4/2015 6:30 PM, Jay West wrote:
>
> The Dasher TP1 is much more of a hard-luck case, and I just finished
> cleaning the top of the top chassis. I did not clean the bottom chassis or
> stand or insides yet, so you can see a good comparison of the cleaned top
> half and the untouched bottom half. 7 pictures (unfortunately newest to
> oldest) are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02
>
>   
>
> No, there's no retrobrite involved. Just a normal spray on household
> cleaner, followed by Magic Eraser and a lot of elbow grease. Yep, Magic
> Eraser is a wonderful thing.
>
>   
Wow, I knew plastics could hold quite a bit of grime in the making them 
looked yellow but that is impressive!
Keep up the great work! Your really getting me excited about the DG Nova 
4 I have to pick up soon.
But that's an 18 hour trip up to Minnesota for a very long weekend in a 
few weeks ;)
The system I'm getting is a whole rack with a Disk Pack drive (of which 
model I am unsure, I'm hoping its the model with a fixed platter in the 
bottom as-well but probably unlikely).
It appears to have two packs with it and some documentation and that's 
it. So I'm really hoping it has data on the disk packs still since there 
is no other media interfaces like a tape drive or paper tape reader or 
anything so if there is nothing on the disks or worse there was a head 
crash I will be out of luck.

Good luck with your DG equipment! Those two eclipse systems with the 
blinken-lights and switches are truly beautiful :)
I, as-well as everyone else I'm sure, can't wait to see them running!

-Connor Krukosky

From js at cimmeri.com  Fri Sep  4 18:03:13 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 18:03:13 -0500
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>



On 9/4/2015 5:41 PM, Johnny Billquist 
wrote:
> On 2015-09-05 00:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
>
>> Let me live the rest of my time like 
>> a child playing with old computers,
>> that's exactly why we are here; 
>> nothing else matters.
>>
>> I know that people trying to help, 
>> trust me, I'm doing that in other,
>> cases with other people too and there 
>> are other people that pissing me
>> off. But: I don't have a killfile.
>
> I do have a killfile. If people start 
> offending me, or being generally 
> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to 
> change them, nor do I care enough to 
> actually waste my time doing that. My 
> time is precious enough to me as it is.
> So the obvious solution is to just 
> ignore them from that point on. They 
> can go on ranting about how unfair 
> people are to them, and I do not have 
> to read it.
>
>     Johnny


Might I respectfully just quip here, 
that different countries have different 
culture re what is offensive.   His 
remarks did not bother me because they 
were "typically German."   Maybe me 
saying that will offend Holm... lol... 
but culture does play a large part here.

I think the best policy is to let as 
much as possible "slide" here in the 
online world... as it's just way, way 
too easy to either take things the wrong 
way, or much more heavily than intended, 
or whatever.

Just my 1 cent.

- John

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep  4 18:10:14 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 16:10:14 -0700
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55EA24D6.1000204@bitsavers.org>

On 9/4/15 3:30 PM, Jay West wrote:

> No, there's no retrobrite involved. Just a normal spray on household
> cleaner, followed by Magic Eraser and a lot of elbow grease. Yep, Magic
> Eraser is a wonderful thing.
>

I didn't know how the things worked, so I looked it up

http://dailyapple.blogspot.com/2009/01/apple-367-magic-eraser.html




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 18:13:46 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 00:13:46 +0100
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se> <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CABYXGGiqfvtTh-GPMpx63MEiTosboRXEtFaQ8GjHHbMMcxDnxA@mail.gmail.com>

I took it as a cry of desperation, nor sure what was intended, but that's
how it came across to me...

Dave wade
On Sep 5, 2015 12:03 AM, "js at cimmeri.com" <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 9/4/2015 5:41 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> On 2015-09-05 00:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>
>>
>> Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old computers,
>>> that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
>>>
>>> I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
>>> cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
>>> off. But: I don't have a killfile.
>>>
>>
>> I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally
>> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care enough to
>> actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me as it
>> is.
>> So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They
>> can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not have to
>> read it.
>>
>>     Johnny
>>
>
>
> Might I respectfully just quip here, that different countries have
> different culture re what is offensive.   His remarks did not bother me
> because they were "typically German."   Maybe me saying that will offend
> Holm... lol... but culture does play a large part here.
>
> I think the best policy is to let as much as possible "slide" here in the
> online world... as it's just way, way too easy to either take things the
> wrong way, or much more heavily than intended, or whatever.
>
> Just my 1 cent.
>
> - John
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep  4 18:31:03 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 16:31:03 -0700
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <55EA24D6.1000204@bitsavers.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55EA24D6.1000204@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55EA29B7.5060106@bitsavers.org>

On 9/4/15 4:10 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I didn't know how the things worked, so I looked it up
>
> http://dailyapple.blogspot.com/2009/01/apple-367-magic-eraser.html
>

and here is a US seller for 100 of 'em at $7.50

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261997395134




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Sep  4 18:40:23 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2015 19:40:23 -0400
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road trip....Illnois,
 Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-04 5:20 PM, Jason T wrote:
> read my
> email on my phone

I hope everyone saw that and understands what it means.

Borders have changed. Any data you take across them is fair game.

--Toby


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep  4 18:42:09 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:42:09 -0500
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <55EA24D6.1000204@bitsavers.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55EA24D6.1000204@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <002401d0e76b$513243f0$f396cbd0$@classiccmp.org>

Al wrote...
>I didn't know how the things worked, so I looked it up

I should point out that for most things classiccmp I use them on, you have
to scrub REALLY hard, in very small back and forth strokes. When you hear
them squeaking, they are working right. It even gets out things that I could
have sworn were scratches down to the metal, but actually weren't.

I should point out that they ARE abrasive, but definitely less so than
say... Comet. As a result, yes, you CAN take paint off if you're careless.
But on hard non-clear plastics, the worst I have ever seen when I got
aggressive with it was the spot I was scrubbing is now shiny smooth instead
of textured.

So you have to use a lot more elbow grease than you might think, but it just
takes a bit of practice to know how much is too much and where you can scrub
harder.

They do fall apart quickly when used aggressively on heavily soiled items.
The ends start coming off in little balls or fragments. I just cut off the
frazzled ends with a pair of scissors and keep going. Just the top of the
case chassis in that picture I went through two of them - they completely
disintegrated. Yep, I buy them in cases of 10-packs and they don't last
long.

You're supposed to wet them with water first, then squeeze out most of it.
There does seem to be some cleaning agent in them as well, to me it smells
ever so faintly of bleach. Perhaps that's just the nature of the spongy
material, I don't know.

I recently found another "use" for them. They don't work so well on stickers
& sticker/tape residue. For that, goo-gone is the product of choice. Put
that on, wait 10 minutes or so, and then I use a razor blade (VERY gently
and extremely slowly) or putty knife. I usually have to repeat this process
a few times. But I recently found that if you put the goo-gone on the
residue, wait 10 minutes, then put on another coat, then 10 minutes later
scrub it off with a magic eraser. Because of the gunk it does destroy the
magic eraser quicker than usual, but it takes off the rest of the residue
without using a putty knife or razor, so you don't get the occasional
"scratch down the metal" if you slip.

They work exceedingly well for me.

J



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Fri Sep  4 18:46:32 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:46:32 -0500
Subject: Ongoing debug of RL8A controller
Message-ID: <18A05FF6FBEF493FA751DBE52A88FA5C@CharlesHPLaptop>

I reconnected the data bus pins, and disconnected all the MA0..11 pins  (in 
case it's DMAing into memory when it should not be). Nope, same issue. Won't 
boot Serial Disk, corrupts the upper six bits of the loader.

Only bus left is the memory data MD0..11, but that can't be shorted because 
on the card it has only inputs. Also the IOT address is decoded from it and
those select properly. Still thinking it's DMA, will try watching the break 
request and other DMA lines for activity.
Nothing unexpected there.

But at last I found something... I think. Despite it not making sense, I 
disconnected the top 8 bits of MD0..7 (thus not only disconnecting the bus 
receivers on the card, but also completely deselecting it). Now the system 
booted and runs normally with the card plugged in! So, I figured either one 
of the 8640 receivers at E3, E20 (page 5 of the 10-page schematic) is leaky, 
quite possibly E20 which handles bits 4-7 the "troublemakers" from before, 
or the 8136 at E11 which appears to be just a multi-input AND/OR gate combo 
to select IOT x60x/x61x and was working with scope loop.

I gradually reconnected lines until it started failing to boot and wiping 
out the loader again... I am so tired of toggling that loader in! At least 
it's only 26 (octal) words.

Turns out MD4 was being pulled down weakly (to a volt or two) by something 
when it should have been pulled up. Wiggling and flexing the card caused it 
to work, intermittently. But I could not find it even with close visual 
inspection. I suspected a tiny tin whisker somewhere...
So I crossed my fingers and tapped the pin with a cliplead from the 25 amp 
+5 volt supply. Figured I had nothing to lose at this point! ... and 
apparently did clear the short :)
Now that line looked normal just like the other 11 memory data bus lines. 
OS/8 restarted with no problem, too.

Started the diagnostic AJRLAC (the "Diskless Controller Test").  Immediately 
indicated a hard failure on bit 10! Oh $@#%. Now what did I do...
But it just took a minute to pull the extender card and sure enough I had 
just made a bad solder joint reconnecting that pin and it had come apart 
with the flexing ;)

Fixed that... running four passes without an error so far. Dare I touch the 
middle of the board again?
Yep... flexing in both directions, no failures!

I think I got it! Make that eight complete passes with the extender removed 
and the board in the cage.

Running AJRLIA on a scratch pack now. Initally I got a very occasional 
seek/tracking error (Command Reg B 1017 or 1117) once per pass on each 
drive, but it's lessening with "exercise"...
It's 90F in the computer room too, which may be above spec for an RL02 
anyhow. Just finished Pass 0002 on Drive 1 without errors :)

-Charles


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep  4 18:52:09 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 18:52:09 -0500
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <002501d0e76c$b6aeaf10$240c0d30$@classiccmp.org>

John wrote....
----
Might I respectfully just quip here,
that different countries have different 
culture re what is offensive. [snip]
I think the best policy is to let as
much as possible "slide" here in the
online world.
----
VERY well put.

About 1% of the time I post a question here, I get silence - even though I know there are people here that know the answer. We've all got day jobs or other things such that many of us can't respond sometimes for a week or more.

About 99% of the time, I get an exceedingly informative answer with lots of gold nuggets of info.

I very happily accept the former to get the latter ;)

While I understand the ire the initial comment might inspire... I'm sure someone with good input will chime in at some point. Patience :)

J



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Sep  4 19:15:32 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 19:15:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-09-04 5:20 PM, Jason T wrote:
>
>> read my email on my phone
>
> I hope everyone saw that and understands what it means.
>
> Borders have changed. Any data you take across them is fair game.

Indeed they have. ...and things continue to change:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150818/16495632000/doj-dismisses-case-after-court-explains-that-feds-cant-just-grab-someones-laptop-border.shtml

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150511/08053430957/court-rejects-questionable-border-search-laptop-saying-computers-are-not-just-containers.shtml

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep  4 20:01:34 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:01:34 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 12:55:25PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
> Several of us have been bounced at the border for trying to bring in
> larger machines. Basically, if it is something that is not a laptop or
> PeeCee or normal consumer electronics, expect trouble. It is not 1998
> anymore.

The FreeBSD Foundation, a 501c(3), turned down a donation of some
Canadian machines because the only place we could host them was NYI/
New Jersey.  The donating company was willing to let us have the
machines but could not figure out the legal complexities to provide
the paperwork.  (I was willing to be the labor).

The Foundation's lawyers advised that we should _not_ transport anything
across the border without paperwork specifying the origin of the equipment,
the intended use, the current value, and any number of other things.

My personal experiences are that big border crossings (e.g. at the terminus
of U.S. Interstates) are less likely to detain you for questioning.  The
smallest ones are suspicious of anyone who isn't a local and will want
to find out why you used _that_ crossing.

On 10+ crossings I have spent between 30 seconds and 2.5 hours.  The
latter they went through the car -- twice -- with a drug dog.  I was
sitting there thinking, ok, what if some asshole who had the car before
me left a dope seed in it.  (NB: I am not taking a position for or
against dope seeds here :-) )

Which reminds me.  The most important rule of all border crossings, and
pardon me for shouting: ALWAYS GO TO THE BATHROOM FIRST.

One of the 1.5 hour crossings they wouldn't let me, apparently nervous
I would flush my (non-existant) stash I suppose.

mcl

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 20:38:11 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 21:38:11 -0400
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>

I had fun taking 20 IBM pc's from Montreal to the usa.  I ended up setting
up a broker account to ship items in a rented van.  It was do this or the
items would be impounded.  I had to be escorted by flashing lights custims
police bacj into canada.  You can't simply drive through customs without
correct paperwork.  Stuck at border and customs for 6 hours.
Bill

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 4, 2015 8:15 PM, "Tothwolf" <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> On 2015-09-04 5:20 PM, Jason T wrote:
>>
>> read my email on my phone
>>>
>>
>> I hope everyone saw that and understands what it means.
>>
>> Borders have changed. Any data you take across them is fair game.
>>
>
> Indeed they have. ...and things continue to change:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California
>
>
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150818/16495632000/doj-dismisses-case-after-court-explains-that-feds-cant-just-grab-someones-laptop-border.shtml
>
>
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150511/08053430957/court-rejects-questionable-border-search-laptop-saying-computers-are-not-just-containers.shtml
>

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep  4 21:11:23 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 21:11:23 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150905021123.GB22012@lonesome.com>

Related road trip info, I am currently in New Mexico and heading up
to Colorado before I swing back to Austin, Texas.  I can move a small
trunkload of "stuff" during this swing if anyone wants.

mcl

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 19:14:24 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:14:24 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>

Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, right?
Not sure because I found little about baud, etc.

I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11.  Maybe I am
missing something..can anyone share experiences?

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep  4 19:20:36 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 20:20:36 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43C690B3-11E8-470E-BDDF-C8411039CC0D@comcast.net>


> On Sep 4, 2015, at 8:14 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, right?
> Not sure because I found little about baud, etc.

??? A TU10 is a formatter for 7 or 9 track magnetic tape.  I don't remember any Baud in that one.

> I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11.  Maybe I am
> missing something..can anyone share experiences?

The Unibus interface that talks to the TU10 is called TM11.

	paul


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 20:54:02 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 19:54:02 -0600
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:14 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, right?
> Not sure because I found little about baud, etc.

No.

> I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11.  Maybe I am
> missing something..can anyone share experiences?

A TU10 master drive contains electronics[*] which allows it to be
interfaced to a PDP-11 TM11 tape control. Said electronics is probably
what's known as a formatter, though I haven't studied the TU10 in
detail so I'm not 100% certain.

A master TU10 can be used with up to seven TU10, TU20, TU30, or TU40
slave transports.

The TM11 controller has its own backplane, and may be mounted in the
TU10 master drive. It connects to PDP-11 using the usual BC11-A Unibus
cables.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 22:30:31 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 23:30:31 -0400
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote:
> My personal experiences are that big border crossings (e.g. at the terminus
> of U.S. Interstates) are less likely to detain you for questioning.  The
> smallest ones are suspicious of anyone who isn't a local and will want
> to find out why you used _that_ crossing.

I had that experience going to Ottawa via a small crossing in upstate
NY.  It was two guys from Ohio (one who was _born_ rather near the
crossing, by coincidence) late at night.  We got grilled but let
through.  Our good answer for why we were there was it was the fastest
trip with the most time on the US side (where the gas is cheaper).
Second longest time ever was coming back from a camping trip near
Hamilton - I had my handmade "tent" (a Mongolian Ger/Yurt) on the roof
of the car.  They wanted to know what the hell was on top of my car
since it didn't look like any tent they ever saw.

Mostly, I cross at Detroit/Windsor and Buffalo/Niagara, and I agree
they are less suspicious why you'd cross there.

> On 10+ crossings I have spent between 30 seconds and 2.5 hours...

I've had 30 seconds numerous times and I've had about an hour - that
was in a VW Microbus painted camouflage.  They didn't tear everything
apart once a cursory search found nothing that obviously didn't
belong.

-ethan

From jim at photojim.ca  Fri Sep  4 22:53:45 2015
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 21:53:45 -0600
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
 <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EA6749.9090202@photojim.ca>

The discussions of crossing the US/Canada border have been interesting.  
Only once have I crossed with classic computer gear (I took a 
SPARCstation 20 to Idaho Falls, Idaho for a list member, while en route 
to San Diego from Saskatchewan) and I had no trouble at all at the 
border.  Then again, the story that I was delivering an old computer 
with near-zero value to someone who wanted it for hobby purposes when I 
was already driving that way did make sense. :)

I cross the border south of where I live (Regway, SK/Raymond, MT) about 
once a month because I have a PO box in Raymond, MT.  I sometimes mail 
stuff from Montana.  It's all non-commercial.  I declare it, I often get 
asked follow-up questions (which I answer sincerely) and so far, I've 
always been allowed to enter.  Coming back, I import whatever I had 
shipped to the PO box (and anything I liberated from the bigger town a 
few miles south) and declare it. Again, no problems.  It's a 24/7 
crossing but it's probably the quietest 24/7 one on the border.

Last Tuesday I brought my mail up at Pembina, ND/Emerson, MB because we 
got the mail en route to Fargo and then went to Winnipeg.  I declared 
like I always do, and had no problems like I always do.

If I were taking really big stuff across I'd just be sure to print lots 
of emails documenting the exchange, and make sure I had phone numbers 
for the key people involved in case customs officers had questions.  
Generally if you can show them that you're not doing anything for 
commercial purposes (including resale), you'll be fine.  Commercial 
stuff can be done too but it requires some hoop-jumping and I haven't 
learned how to do this since I don't have any commercial activities that 
cross the border.

Jim

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 22:53:57 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 15:53:57 +1200
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbPZLx89FCqfObG0_QtYn=UmOnE2AZNk4_iTGMUth99rEA@mail.gmail.com>

Which ducks did you have in mind?

I did a big Canada trip a few years ago; rented a truck and brought
back a bunch of big disk drives mostly - mostly DEC, RP02, RP04, RP05
etc.

Passed through customs in about 10 mins flat.

"What's in the back?"

"Bunch of ancient computer stuff for my collection. Some guys it's old
cars, me it's old computers..."

Couple more questions, check my paperwork, no problems.

Mike

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 4:55 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. ALL the ducks.
>
> Several of us have been bounced at the border for trying to bring in
> larger machines. Basically, if it is something that is not a laptop or
> PeeCee or normal consumer electronics, expect trouble. It is not 1998
> anymore.
>
> --
> Will
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> On 9/3/15 9:58 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm looking into a road trip from Champaign  to Maine via Indy, Detroit,
>>> Windsor, Niagra Falls, Buffalo or 1000 Islands, Syracuse to Boston area,
>>> and up to Maine. Not sure about the return Route.
>>
>>
>>> I have talked to a few list members about dropping off/picking up items.
>>
>>
>> Make sure all of your ducks are lined up if you are taking equipment in and
>> out of Canada.
>>
>>
>>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Fri Sep  4 22:58:27 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 15:58:27 +1200
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbO0xAxqTHdqe1w_e1s89iUmKgYyCwiu=vw5zERMzh_j+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 2015-09-04 5:20 PM, Jason T wrote:
>>
>> read my
>> email on my phone
>
>
> I hope everyone saw that and understands what it means.

Yep. Strong crypto on everything!

Mike

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  4 23:10:55 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 21:10:55 -0700
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmAO6T8-B+z+Hsb30tno9_R3iqsJsTS1Bop10TMJoMQHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
 <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>, <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>,
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>,
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl>, <55E9B2ED.7080201@charter.net>,
 <CAALmimmAO6T8-B+z+Hsb30tno9_R3iqsJsTS1Bop10TMJoMQHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W58A3B032E98248421117FEA3560@phx.gbl>

The idea for using the tristate control for an OC output has been
used many times before.
An example is on the SwyftCard for the Apple 2e.
It needed a OC for the reset as I recall and the PAL used
that trick.
The only possible issue is the limited current drive for older
DTL circuits.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Sep  4 23:23:07 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 00:23:07 -0400
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbO0xAxqTHdqe1w_e1s89iUmKgYyCwiu=vw5zERMzh_j+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAPhLQbO0xAxqTHdqe1w_e1s89iUmKgYyCwiu=vw5zERMzh_j+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EA6E2B.1030803@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-04 11:58 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> On 2015-09-04 5:20 PM, Jason T wrote:
>>>
>>> read my
>>> email on my phone
>>
>>
>> I hope everyone saw that and understands what it means.
>
> Yep. Strong crypto on everything!
>
> Mike
>

"What's your phone PIN?"
"Log into your email."
"Log into Facebook."

and after that, google "rubber hose filesystem".

--Toby

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep  4 23:29:37 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 23:29:37 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
 <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150905042937.GB29152@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 11:30:31PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> I had that experience going to Ottawa via a small crossing in upstate
> NY.

In fact that is probably the exact one I had the 2hr experience at :-)

mcl

From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com  Sat Sep  5 01:23:03 2015
From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 16:23:03 +1000
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
Message-ID: <CACCFpdwtcuo14s-GLuza7ptm6pNnw4V=61__Ur59hDFMdUdwfw@mail.gmail.com>

We would be glad to hear from anyone who might have new material
related to the Burroughs B6700.

We're on the hunt for any manuals or software related to the Burroughs
large systems so we can build an emulator for the B6700. This search
includes the B5000, B6000, B7000 families, since there is considerable
overlap across these families and collateral from one system family
can assist understanding another. Example models include B5500, B5700,
B6500, B7500, B6700, B7700, B6800, and B7800.

We were amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the critical
documentation (thanks Bitsavers!) and a complete suite of system
software, but even though the B6700 was more recent and produced in
larger numbers we're not having the same level of good fortune finding
artifacts.

What we have so far is documented here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnMsyE8ssJi_-MUsK0rT9LPtNpeJCpTv1QrFw-917Y8/edit?usp=sharing

If you're interested in this system then you likely remember that it
had a particularly impressive front-panel display, seen here:

http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainframe#TOC-B6700-Display-Panel

This was known as the MDL display: Maintenance Diagnostics Logic
display. Because the MDL had the 4 x top-of-stack registers down to
the bit-level particular bit-patterns allowed words to be displayed.
The early MCPs put IDLE into the display during IO waits, and
subsequent releases: B for Burroughs, but sites quickly started
putting their own company initials or the time.

The Danish museum is so far the only place I've found that kept the MDL:

http://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Genstand:11000045_Konsolpanel_Burroughs_B6700

Thanks to Finn Verner Nielsen for being so helpful and undertaking an
expedition into their warehouse to locate and photograph the item for
us. On that DDHF web-page you will see on the left of the picture the
B7800 MDL they have too.

My goal is to also construct a replica of the B6700 MDL.


Steps undertaken so far:
Posts to newsgroups
Posts on LinkedIn, wikipedia, Yahoo groups
Emails to a few dozen people who were involved with the system
Trawling the Internet

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep  5 01:50:05 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 02:50:05 -0400
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
Message-ID: <9831e.c977493.431bea9d@aol.com>

I will have to see. When we acquired the Aldrige collection at  SMECC  we  
pulled off all the really  really  early  material  and  put the remainder 
in storage  which should have some of this...  we also  have the unisys 
crossover stuff and  when  why bought up  the Varian minicomputer  too. I 
remember  we boxed and boxed... and  deep stored it.  guess it  did not  seem  
"really old"   at the  time....but  it has been about  10 years  since we  have  
pulled it out and run our hand  through it. 
 
Background on Aldrige  started on   the electrodata Pasadena  ...  ended up 
 running  the  phx    field  service effort here  and was a great packrat.
 
The effort to get to this material is a lot of  work
ed sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/2015 11:23:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
nw at retroComputingTasmania.com writes:

We would  be glad to hear from anyone who might have new material
related to the  Burroughs B6700.

We're on the hunt for any manuals or software related  to the Burroughs
large systems so we can build an emulator for the B6700.  This search
includes the B5000, B6000, B7000 families, since there is  considerable
overlap across these families and collateral from one system  family
can assist understanding another. Example models include B5500,  B5700,
B6500, B7500, B6700, B7700, B6800, and B7800.

We were  amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the  critical
documentation (thanks Bitsavers!) and a complete suite of  system
software, but even though the B6700 was more recent and produced  in
larger numbers we're not having the same level of good fortune  finding
artifacts.

What we have so far is documented  here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnMsyE8ssJi_-MUsK0rT9LPtNpeJCpTv1QrF
w-917Y8/edit?usp=sharing

If  you're interested in this system then you likely remember that it
had a  particularly impressive front-panel display, seen  here:

http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainfram
e#TOC-B6700-Display-Panel

This  was known as the MDL display: Maintenance Diagnostics Logic
display.  Because the MDL had the 4 x top-of-stack registers down to
the bit-level  particular bit-patterns allowed words to be displayed.
The early MCPs put  IDLE into the display during IO waits, and
subsequent releases: B for  Burroughs, but sites quickly started
putting their own company initials or  the time.

The Danish museum is so far the only place I've found that  kept the  MDL:

http://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Genstand:11000045_Konsolpanel_Burroughs_B6700

Thanks  to Finn Verner Nielsen for being so helpful and undertaking an
expedition  into their warehouse to locate and photograph the item for
us. On that DDHF  web-page you will see on the left of the picture the
B7800 MDL they have  too.

My goal is to also construct a replica of the B6700  MDL.


Steps undertaken so far:
Posts to newsgroups
Posts on  LinkedIn, wikipedia, Yahoo groups
Emails to a few dozen people who were  involved with the system
Trawling the  Internet


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep  5 01:58:09 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 02:58:09 -0400
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
Message-ID: <98399.2a7432c.431bec81@aol.com>

one thing we  have  fine  from the 5000 stuff are all these  beautiful  
cord wood  logic  things  all gold and  pretty   but  most of these  got   
scrapped     for  gold along the  way..  I do  not  know what other units used 
in  but  some   folks   mentioned  5000
I have  schematics  for  some of these too.
 
ed#  www,smecc.org
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/2015 11:23:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
nw at retroComputingTasmania.com writes:

We would  be glad to hear from anyone who might have new material
related to the  Burroughs B6700.

We're on the hunt for any manuals or software related  to the Burroughs
large systems so we can build an emulator for the B6700.  This search
includes the B5000, B6000, B7000 families, since there is  considerable
overlap across these families and collateral from one system  family
can assist understanding another. Example models include B5500,  B5700,
B6500, B7500, B6700, B7700, B6800, and B7800.

We were  amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the  critical
documentation (thanks Bitsavers!) and a complete suite of  system
software, but even though the B6700 was more recent and produced  in
larger numbers we're not having the same level of good fortune  finding
artifacts.

What we have so far is documented  here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnMsyE8ssJi_-MUsK0rT9LPtNpeJCpTv1QrF
w-917Y8/edit?usp=sharing

If  you're interested in this system then you likely remember that it
had a  particularly impressive front-panel display, seen  here:

http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainfram
e#TOC-B6700-Display-Panel

This  was known as the MDL display: Maintenance Diagnostics Logic
display.  Because the MDL had the 4 x top-of-stack registers down to
the bit-level  particular bit-patterns allowed words to be displayed.
The early MCPs put  IDLE into the display during IO waits, and
subsequent releases: B for  Burroughs, but sites quickly started
putting their own company initials or  the time.

The Danish museum is so far the only place I've found that  kept the  MDL:

http://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Genstand:11000045_Konsolpanel_Burroughs_B6700

Thanks  to Finn Verner Nielsen for being so helpful and undertaking an
expedition  into their warehouse to locate and photograph the item for
us. On that DDHF  web-page you will see on the left of the picture the
B7800 MDL they have  too.

My goal is to also construct a replica of the B6700  MDL.


Steps undertaken so far:
Posts to newsgroups
Posts on  LinkedIn, wikipedia, Yahoo groups
Emails to a few dozen people who were  involved with the system
Trawling the  Internet


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 02:00:17 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 09:00:17 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

[..]
> >
> >
> >He Johnny, clam down.
> >
> >There was _NO_ Answer at all.
> 
> Yes. And what is your problem with that? Noone answered, so live with it.
> 
> >Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
> >answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
> >Does this make any difference?
> 
> What the hell? There is no indication that people can't read your 
> messages. You have gotten plenty of answers in the past. In addition, 
> you can yourself also see that your messages reached the list.
> If you do not get an answer, it is because people either do not have an 
> answer, or else do not want to answer.
> 
> Trying to offend them by being sarcastic will most likely not get you 
> any more answers. However, it do show, to others reading, that you are 
> pretty much expecting and demanding that people respond to your posts. 
> Which is a rather child-like behavior. We are not here to satisfy your 
> needs.

Johnny, If you think we should fight over the same thing every time,
please continue. This is exactly the same topic as in the port-vax list
2 or 3 years before. Otherwise (using your words): live with it.

> 
> >Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac last
> >year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
> >Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.
> 
> Who knows how much time they have left. Does that make it ok to offend 
> anyone else who is not responding to your every demand?
> I think not. You are free to disagree, but in that case I will 
> definitely ignore you.

What I have done?
I was sarcastic, that was all.
There where no insulting words in my mail.

What I have reached with that?
Besides of your opinion about my childishness, there where other answers
that where at least interresting. (Thanks to Dave and Richard at this point,
I've subscribed comp.os.vms in the meantime but think I meet the same
people there)


> 
> >Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old computers,
> >that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
> >
> >I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
> >cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
> >off. But: I don't have a killfile.
> 
> I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally 
> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care enough 
> to actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me 
> as it is.
> So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They 
> can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not have 
> to read it.
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> -- 


"When people start offending me.." ... read was I wrote and read again
what you wrote.

"I am obviously not going to change them" .. but this is exactly what you
trying to do here.

Sorry for being "obnoxious":
My Answer to your answer in this thread was "Yes", accepting what our
wrote to me, now the thing was done for me.  I knew why I only wrote that.

So from my point of view you don't wanted the discussion to be completed,
so that seems to be your hobby. You are looking a little bit like an
choleric from here, may be I'm the only one that feels like this.
Besides of that I know that you are an clever fellow and you trying to
help if you can. So if that aren't your shoes, why the heck your trying
to wear them?

About the killfile:

I think I'm a "strong enough personality" so I don't think the computer
should decide for me if I should read something or not. On the other side
I'm trying to help people if I can, even if the pissed on my shoes in the
past and sometimes enemies are turning into friends over time. No, don't
need no killfile on my side. Don't get me wrong, that's no technical
problem this time, we all get tons of spam mails and most of us have
mechanisms to prevent spam from appearing in the inbox. I'm a small hosting
company of my own and the usual mechanisms for that are installed an working,
no problem to add folks there but I prefer deciding myself.


Back to the topic:

I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't know,
never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all, leaving
the man that looks for help alone. Maybe that's only my point of view,
maybe not.


about my intention: When I ask for help or opinions, I need that help
or opinion, since I can't find a way tho clear the problem on my own.
So Dave Wade isn't totally wrong with that what he thinks about my post.
Maybe not "a cry of desperation" maybe more "helllo...is there anyone
out there..?"

..
Now, after that many text about "Role of Meaning" is it just me that
thinks that the time where better to be used for clearing technical
problems?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 02:29:11 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 09:29:11 +0200
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
Message-ID: <20150905072911.GA80174@beast.freibergnet.de>


Hi,

does someone know if the schematics of the KDJ11-A (11/73 CPU)
are available in the public?
I have one with an thermal fault, the J11 is fine..

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  5 03:00:30 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 10:00:30 +0200
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS38CADC0AEF56E5C7B05E8686560@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jay West
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 12:30 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: no, not retrobrite

Decided to start with the terminals first. I cleaned up and tested the DG
Dasher D200, and it come out fairly good and all tests indicate it's working
fine. No pictures of that.

The Dasher TP1 is much more of a hard-luck case, and I just finished
cleaning the top of the top chassis. I did not clean the bottom chassis or
stand or insides yet, so you can see a good comparison of the cleaned top
half and the untouched bottom half. 7 pictures (unfortunately newest to
oldest) are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02

No, there's no retrobrite involved. Just a normal spray on household
cleaner, followed by Magic Eraser and a lot of elbow grease. Yep, Magic
Eraser is a wonderful thing.

=========

Thanks for posting these pictures Jay. It gives me "momentum" to get
started on working on my NOVA3. I still am not 100% sure what I have
picked up several years ago, but it is a NOVA3, a unit with one 8"
floppy drive and a disk drive which has one (?) fixed platter and one
removable cartridge on top.
I have two Dasher terminals (like 14th picture), the same printer but
without the keyboard option) and on a desk that tension-arm cute
little tape drive (8th picture). I *think* I have the interface card
for it. In the 6ft tall DG rack is also a separate approx 5" high box
with a power supply. One card is installed in it, I believe it is for
additional comm lines.

At the moment my knowledge of DG is close to 0 ... Need to learn a
lot. I am sorry to say it, but HP and DEC did a better job when it
comes to connecting options to the CPU box. At least, that is my
impression. most of the cables are *soldered*, not plugged.
That makes it hard to put the little tape drive in the rack, where
it certainly would be stored safer (how to connect is for later).
To install the tape drive, the comms unit has to move. But the cables
to it are not via connectors :-(

Love to read more about DG!
- Henk

BTW, the house looks great too :-) 


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 03:38:37 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 03:38:37 -0500
Subject: Cameras- way off topic...
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN-CTU5i-ysJS63KX9cS+kRRd-xhgpJu-ysZSk7uk_KXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a friend with a Contax RTSII and accessories for sale if there are
any other Zeiss people out there. More info on request.

The following list is from another person trying to settle an estate. Over
175 cameras! The prices are from collectiblend.com. I've never heard of it
but and he knows he won't be able to get those prices, with the possible
exception of the Leica gear. As I recall, there are a few Leica collectors
here. BTW, I have some old Leica microscopes and specialty items I might
get rid of circa 1910 and newer. I'm a Zeiss person myself. Some cameras
are NIB, some have a lot of options.

I plan on picking up a few pieces for myself. There is a lot of darkroom
equipment, but no list yet.

If you have any interest feel free to contact me off list.

Thanks, Paul

# BRAND MODEL MISC. $ $
1 AGFA AGFA ANSCO $10 $20
2 AGFA ANSCO Clipper PD16 Box $30 $40
3 AGFA ANSCO Plenax Case $10 $20
4 AGFA ANSCO Viking $50 $60
5 AGFA Billy Record I ("Viking") $20 $30
6 AGFA ISO Flash Rapid C Box, manual $10 $20
7 AGFA Isolette (Pre-War) Case $90 $100
8 AGFA Ventura 69 $20 $30
9 AGFA ANSCO PB 20 Viking Case $20 $30
10 AGFA ANSCO PD16 Readyset Case, manual [MINT] $50 $60
11 ALFRED GAUTHEIR Prontor II $40 $50
12 ALFRED GAUTHEIR Vario $10 $20
13 ALFRED GAUTHIER AGC Pronto $10 $20
14 ANSCI Speedex B2 Junior $10 $20
15 ANSCO Deluxe No. 1 $40 $50
16 ANSCO Folding ANSCO No. 1 $10 $20
17 ANSCO Readyset Royal No. 1 A Brown Case, Manual $40 $50
18 ANSCO Readyset Special No. 1 A $20 $30
19 ANSCO Regent $50 $60
20 ANSCO Speedex 6.3 $10 $20
21 ANSCO Standard Speedex $10 $20
22 ANSCO Viking Readiset Box, manual $25 $35
23 ANTHONY Novelette (ca. 1886) Missing lense $300 $350
24 ARGUS "A" - Candid Camera Box, manual $40 $50
25 ARGUS "A" (Black) $20 $30
26 ARGUS "A" (Black) Flash, arm & cable $25 $35
27 ARGUS Argoflex 75 Case, box, manuals $20 $30
28 ARGUS Argus (Argoflex) 40 Case $25 $35
29 ARGUS Argus C 2 Case $30 $40
30 ARGUS Argus C Black Case $60 $70
31 ARGUS Argus C Black $60 $70
32 ARGUS Argus C44 $100 $120
33 BALDA Baldina 1935 $50 $60
34 BALDA Baldina 1935 $50 $60
35 BALDA Juwella $90 $100
36 BOLSEY B 2 Case $100 $120
37 BRAUN Gloriette $10 $20
38 BURKE & JAMES Rexo 3 Junior $50 $60
39 CIRO Ciro-flex "C" Case $100 $120
40 EHO Altiflex Case $100 $120
41 FALCON Model X6 $5 $10
42 FOTH C.F. Derby I $280 $300
43 FOTOCHROME Fotochrome $90 $100
44 FRANKA WERKA Rolfix (1951) Case $30 $40
45 GOLAR Feca $40 $50
46 GRAFLEX Century 35 A $50 $60
47 GRAFLEX Speed Graphic Wood box, plates, manual $750 $800
48 GRAFLEX Stereo Graphic $200 $220
49 HAKING Mincronta 35X $20 $30
50 HERBERT GEORGE HERCO Imperial 620 Snap Shot $10 $20
51 HERBERT GEORGE Imperial 620 Reflex Boy Scouts of America, flash $45 $50
52 HERBERT GEORGE Imperial Debonair $10 $20
53 HIT Minature $30 $40
54 HOUGHTON Ensign (Regular Ensign) $70 $80
55 ICA Icarette (6 x 6) Model "A" $70 $80
56 ICA Lloyd (535/575) $70 $80
57 ILOCA Realist 35 $20 $30
58 JHAGEE Exa Type 1.2 $100 $120
59 KEYSTONE K 25 Capri $10 $20
60 KODAK 35 Half case $60 $70
61 KODAK Autographic Junior No. 1 $30 $40
62 KODAK Autographic Junior No. 1 A $30 $40
63 KODAK Autographic Junior No. 1 A $30 $40
64 KODAK Autographic No. 3 Case $50 $60
65 KODAK Autographic No. 3 A Model C $50 $60
66 KODAK Automatic 35 Half case $50 $60
67 KODAK Baby Brownie $30 $40
68 KODAK Baby Brownie $30 $40
69 KODAK Baby Brownie $30 $40
70 KODAK Bantam f 4.5 $40 $50
71 KODAK Brownie Hawkeye $10 $20
72 KODAK Brownie Movie Camera Model 2 Box, manual $60 $70
73 KODAK Brownie Reflex Synchro $20 $30
74 KODAK Brownie Reflex Synchro Box, manual $50 $60
75 KODAK Brownie Starmatic Case $10 $20
76 KODAK Brownie Target Six-20 (US) $20 $30
77 KODAK Bullet $90 $100
78 KODAK Bullet Box $90 $100
79 KODAK Cartridge Hawk-Eye No. 2 Model C $10 $20
80 KODAK Duaflex II $50 $60
81 KODAK Flash Bantam Case $30 $40
82 KODAK Folding 127-A $10 $20
83 KODAK Folding Autographic Brownie No. 2 $10 $20
84 KODAK Folding Autographic Brownie No. 2 $10 $20
85 KODAK Folding Autographic Brownie No. 2 $10 $20
86 KODAK Folding Autographic Brownie No. 2 C $10 $20
87 KODAK Folding Brownie No. 2A (Black) Box, manual $90 $100
88 KODAK Folding Brownie No. 2A (Brown) Box $70 $80
89 KODAK Folding Brownie No. 3 A Red bellows $50 $60
90 KODAK Folding Cartridge Hawk-Eye No. 2 Model C $50 $60
91 KODAK Folding Cartridge Premo No. 2 $40 $50
92 KODAK Folding Hawk-Eye No. 2 Model B Case $50 $60
93 KODAK Folding Pocket No. 2 Model C Rare Model $90 $100
94 KODAK Folding Pocket No. 3 A $50 $60
95 KODAK Folding Pocket No. 3 Model E2 $100 $120
96 KODAK Folding Pocket No. 3A Model B4 $70 $80
97 KODAK Jiffy Kodak Six-16 $40 $50
98 KODAK Jiffy Kodak Six-20 Manual $30 $40
99 KODAK Junior No. 1 Case, manual $30 $40
101 KODAK Junior No. 2 C $10 $20
102 KODAK Junior Six-16 Series III Case, manual [MINT] $50 $60
103 KODAK Pocket Junior No. 1 $30 $40
104 KODAK Pocket No. 1 $40 $50
105 KODAK Pocket No. 1 A $50 $60
106 KODAK Pocket No. 1 A $50 $60
107 KODAK Pocket No. 1 Series II $20 $30
108 KODAK Premo $60 $70
109 KODAK Premoette Junior No. 1 $50 $60
110 KODAK Retina I (117) Case $340 $360
111 KODAK Retina Ia Case $70 $80
112 KODAK Retina IIIc (021 III) $220 $240
113 KODAK Signet 35 $100 $120
114 KODAK Stereo 35 (black) Case, box, manual $480 $500
115 KODAK Tourist (Anastar) $180 $200
116 KODAK Tourist (Anastar) Mint condition $180 $200
117 KODAK Tourist (Anastar) Mint condition $180 $200
118 KODAK Tourist (Anaston) Case $60 $70
119 KODAK Vest Pocket Autographic $50 $60
120 KODAK Vest Pocket Autographic Special $50 $60
121 KODAK Vest Pocket Model B $120 $140
122 KODAK Vest Pocket Model B Box [MINT] $180 $200
123 KODAK Vigilant Junior Six-20 $30 $40
124 KODAK Vigilant Junior Six-20 $30 $40
125 KODAK Vigilant Junior Six-20 $30 $40
126 KODAK Vigilant Six-20 Box $40 $50
127 KODAK Vigilant Six-20 Box $40 $50
128 KODAK Vigilant Six-20 Box $40 $50
129 KODAK Vigilant Six-20 $40 $50
130 KODAK Vollenda No. 48 $70 $80
131 LAVEC LT-002 Box, case, manual $10 $20
132 MINETTA Minature $20 $30
133 MINOLTA Freedom 50 N $10 $20
134 MINOLTA Hi-Matic F Case $30 $40
135 MINOLTA Minolta 16 Chrome $50 $60
136 MINOLTA Minolta 35 Model E $320 $340
137 OLYMPUS Olympus XA-2 Box, manual [MINT] $90 $100
138 PHO-TAK Foldex 20 Case $60 $70
139 POLAROID 101 (Automatic) Flash, Manual $30 $40
140 POLAROID Colorpack II Box, manual $10 $20
141 POLAROID Polaroid 80 (Highlander) $10 $20
142 RICOH Ricohflex Model IV Case $160 $180
143 SENECA Competitor View (1904 - 1925) Tripod, extra plates $600 $650
144 SENECA R. F. Seneca No. 3A $60 $70
145 SENECA R. F. Seneca No. 3A Case $60 $70
146 SENECA Scout Folding No. 2 A $90 $100
147 SENECA Scout Folding No. 3 A $90 $100
148 SPARTUS Spartus Rocket $20 $30
149 SUYDAM Roll film adaptor $50 $60
150 TRAID CORP. Fotron III Mint condition $200 $220
151 UNIVERSAL CAMERA Univex A Box $50 $60
152 UNIVERSAL CAMERA Univex Iris $40 $50
153 UNIVEX Model AF-3 $30 $4
154 UTILITY MFG. Falcon Minature $50 $60
155 VOIGTLANDER Bessa Case $160 $180
156 VOIGTLANDER Bessa Case $160 $180
157 VOIGTLANDER Bessa Compur 4.5 $20 $25
158 VOIGTLANDER Vito $90 $100
159 VOIGTLANDER Vito Automatic I Case $60 $70
160 WELTA Perfekta Half case $160 $180
161 WELTA Watson $70 $80
162 WELTA Weltax I $50 $60
163 WELTA Welti $100 $120
164 WELTA Welti $60 $70
165 WHITEHOUSE Beacon II $20 $30
166 WHITEHOUSE Beacon II $20 $30
167 YASHICA EZ-Matic $50 $60
168 YASHICA MAT 124 G Case, manual, bag $320 $340
169 YASHICA Yashica A Case $100 $120
170 YASHICA Yashica D $140 $160
171 ZEISS IKON Ikonta 35 $220 $240
172 ZEISS IKON Ikonta 35 (522/24) $220 $240
173 ZEISS IKON Ikonta 520 / 18 $120 $140
174 ZEISS IKON Ikonta D 520/15 $90 $100
175 ZEISS IKON Nettar 510 Case $70 $80
176 ZENOBIA D.O.C. Rapid $30 $40

                  TOTALS: $12,785 $14,914

LEITZ Leica IIf (red dial) [1951-52] Case $1,000 $1,100
LEITZ Leica IIIf (upgraded) [1952-53] Case $900 $1,000
LEITZ Leica IIIf [1951-52] Half-case $900 $1,000
LEITZ Leica M3 Chrome Double Stroke [1955] $2,400 $2,500
LEITZ Lens: Elmar 90mm f4 (SM, chrome) Mfg. 1955 $180 $200
LEITZ Lens: Elmar 50mm f3.5 (SM, chrome) Mfg. 1954 $520 $540

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep  5 05:10:21 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:10:21 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>

Holm. You may call it whatever you want.

I found your comments insulting. And following your advice I'll not 
ignore you. Have fun.

	Johnny

On 2015-09-05 09:00, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> [..]
>>>
>>>
>>> He Johnny, clam down.
>>>
>>> There was _NO_ Answer at all.
>>
>> Yes. And what is your problem with that? Noone answered, so live with it.
>>
>>> Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
>>> answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
>>> Does this make any difference?
>>
>> What the hell? There is no indication that people can't read your
>> messages. You have gotten plenty of answers in the past. In addition,
>> you can yourself also see that your messages reached the list.
>> If you do not get an answer, it is because people either do not have an
>> answer, or else do not want to answer.
>>
>> Trying to offend them by being sarcastic will most likely not get you
>> any more answers. However, it do show, to others reading, that you are
>> pretty much expecting and demanding that people respond to your posts.
>> Which is a rather child-like behavior. We are not here to satisfy your
>> needs.
>
> Johnny, If you think we should fight over the same thing every time,
> please continue. This is exactly the same topic as in the port-vax list
> 2 or 3 years before. Otherwise (using your words): live with it.
>
>>
>>> Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac last
>>> year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
>>> Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.
>>
>> Who knows how much time they have left. Does that make it ok to offend
>> anyone else who is not responding to your every demand?
>> I think not. You are free to disagree, but in that case I will
>> definitely ignore you.
>
> What I have done?
> I was sarcastic, that was all.
> There where no insulting words in my mail.
>
> What I have reached with that?
> Besides of your opinion about my childishness, there where other answers
> that where at least interresting. (Thanks to Dave and Richard at this point,
> I've subscribed comp.os.vms in the meantime but think I meet the same
> people there)
>
>
>>
>>> Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old computers,
>>> that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
>>>
>>> I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
>>> cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
>>> off. But: I don't have a killfile.
>>
>> I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally
>> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care enough
>> to actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me
>> as it is.
>> So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They
>> can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not have
>> to read it.
>>
>> 	Johnny
>>
>> --
>
>
> "When people start offending me.." ... read was I wrote and read again
> what you wrote.
>
> "I am obviously not going to change them" .. but this is exactly what you
> trying to do here.
>
> Sorry for being "obnoxious":
> My Answer to your answer in this thread was "Yes", accepting what our
> wrote to me, now the thing was done for me.  I knew why I only wrote that.
>
> So from my point of view you don't wanted the discussion to be completed,
> so that seems to be your hobby. You are looking a little bit like an
> choleric from here, may be I'm the only one that feels like this.
> Besides of that I know that you are an clever fellow and you trying to
> help if you can. So if that aren't your shoes, why the heck your trying
> to wear them?
>
> About the killfile:
>
> I think I'm a "strong enough personality" so I don't think the computer
> should decide for me if I should read something or not. On the other side
> I'm trying to help people if I can, even if the pissed on my shoes in the
> past and sometimes enemies are turning into friends over time. No, don't
> need no killfile on my side. Don't get me wrong, that's no technical
> problem this time, we all get tons of spam mails and most of us have
> mechanisms to prevent spam from appearing in the inbox. I'm a small hosting
> company of my own and the usual mechanisms for that are installed an working,
> no problem to add folks there but I prefer deciding myself.
>
>
> Back to the topic:
>
> I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't know,
> never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all, leaving
> the man that looks for help alone. Maybe that's only my point of view,
> maybe not.
>
>
> about my intention: When I ask for help or opinions, I need that help
> or opinion, since I can't find a way tho clear the problem on my own.
> So Dave Wade isn't totally wrong with that what he thinks about my post.
> Maybe not "a cry of desperation" maybe more "helllo...is there anyone
> out there..?"
>
> ..
> Now, after that many text about "Role of Meaning" is it just me that
> thinks that the time where better to be used for clearing technical
> problems?
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep  5 05:11:13 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:11:13 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55EABFC1.6020502@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 12:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Holm. You may call it whatever you want.
>
> I found your comments insulting. And following your advice I'll not
> ignore you. Have fun.

s/not/now/

	Johnny

>
>      Johnny
>
> On 2015-09-05 09:00, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He Johnny, clam down.
>>>>
>>>> There was _NO_ Answer at all.
>>>
>>> Yes. And what is your problem with that? Noone answered, so live with
>>> it.
>>>
>>>> Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
>>>> answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
>>>> Does this make any difference?
>>>
>>> What the hell? There is no indication that people can't read your
>>> messages. You have gotten plenty of answers in the past. In addition,
>>> you can yourself also see that your messages reached the list.
>>> If you do not get an answer, it is because people either do not have an
>>> answer, or else do not want to answer.
>>>
>>> Trying to offend them by being sarcastic will most likely not get you
>>> any more answers. However, it do show, to others reading, that you are
>>> pretty much expecting and demanding that people respond to your posts.
>>> Which is a rather child-like behavior. We are not here to satisfy your
>>> needs.
>>
>> Johnny, If you think we should fight over the same thing every time,
>> please continue. This is exactly the same topic as in the port-vax list
>> 2 or 3 years before. Otherwise (using your words): live with it.
>>
>>>
>>>> Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac last
>>>> year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
>>>> Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.
>>>
>>> Who knows how much time they have left. Does that make it ok to offend
>>> anyone else who is not responding to your every demand?
>>> I think not. You are free to disagree, but in that case I will
>>> definitely ignore you.
>>
>> What I have done?
>> I was sarcastic, that was all.
>> There where no insulting words in my mail.
>>
>> What I have reached with that?
>> Besides of your opinion about my childishness, there where other answers
>> that where at least interresting. (Thanks to Dave and Richard at this
>> point,
>> I've subscribed comp.os.vms in the meantime but think I meet the same
>> people there)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old
>>>> computers,
>>>> that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
>>>>
>>>> I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
>>>> cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
>>>> off. But: I don't have a killfile.
>>>
>>> I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally
>>> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care enough
>>> to actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me
>>> as it is.
>>> So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They
>>> can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not have
>>> to read it.
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>>
>>> --
>>
>>
>> "When people start offending me.." ... read was I wrote and read again
>> what you wrote.
>>
>> "I am obviously not going to change them" .. but this is exactly what you
>> trying to do here.
>>
>> Sorry for being "obnoxious":
>> My Answer to your answer in this thread was "Yes", accepting what our
>> wrote to me, now the thing was done for me.  I knew why I only wrote
>> that.
>>
>> So from my point of view you don't wanted the discussion to be completed,
>> so that seems to be your hobby. You are looking a little bit like an
>> choleric from here, may be I'm the only one that feels like this.
>> Besides of that I know that you are an clever fellow and you trying to
>> help if you can. So if that aren't your shoes, why the heck your trying
>> to wear them?
>>
>> About the killfile:
>>
>> I think I'm a "strong enough personality" so I don't think the computer
>> should decide for me if I should read something or not. On the other side
>> I'm trying to help people if I can, even if the pissed on my shoes in the
>> past and sometimes enemies are turning into friends over time. No, don't
>> need no killfile on my side. Don't get me wrong, that's no technical
>> problem this time, we all get tons of spam mails and most of us have
>> mechanisms to prevent spam from appearing in the inbox. I'm a small
>> hosting
>> company of my own and the usual mechanisms for that are installed an
>> working,
>> no problem to add folks there but I prefer deciding myself.
>>
>>
>> Back to the topic:
>>
>> I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't
>> know,
>> never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all, leaving
>> the man that looks for help alone. Maybe that's only my point of view,
>> maybe not.
>>
>>
>> about my intention: When I ask for help or opinions, I need that help
>> or opinion, since I can't find a way tho clear the problem on my own.
>> So Dave Wade isn't totally wrong with that what he thinks about my post.
>> Maybe not "a cry of desperation" maybe more "helllo...is there anyone
>> out there..?"
>>
>> ..
>> Now, after that many text about "Role of Meaning" is it just me that
>> thinks that the time where better to be used for clearing technical
>> problems?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Holm
>>
>
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sat Sep  5 05:35:42 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:35:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: no, not retrobrite
In-Reply-To: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001f01d0e761$5dbf5a90$193e0fb0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051228090.32654@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Jay West wrote:
> No, there's no retrobrite involved. Just a normal spray on household
> cleaner, followed by Magic Eraser and a lot of elbow grease. Yep, Magic
> Eraser is a wonderful thing.

Or for those on my side of the world: Sidol Kunststoffreiniger
Can't imagine anything better for cleaning plastic parts/cases. I even use 
that to clean other surfaces (like old radios) with heavy dirt or nicotine 
deposits. And no Magic Erase, just a normal kitchen sponge. For metal 
cases I normally use somethink like Ajax powder.

Christian

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 05:38:34 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 06:38:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Electronic devices and borders
Message-ID: <20150905103834.5CBD318C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mike Ross

    > Strong crypto on everything!

Better yet (much better): upload all your bits to the cloud (strongly
encrypted if need be), and have almost none on the machine when you cross the
border - you can download it when you get to the other side. (And, if you're
paranoid, or have reason to be, don't forget to i) delete it before coming
back across, and ii) wipe your free space.)

Anything _on_ the machine they are entitled to look at - and if you have A
bunch of encrypted stuff, and won't give them the keys, it makes them i)
suspicious, and ii) pissed off at you for flouting their 'authority'.

'Sure, officer - look at anything you want, nothing's locked' - they'll soon
lose interest and wave you on their way, there's obviously nothing there to
find.

	Noel

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sat Sep  5 05:40:03 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:40:03 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051237230.32654@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
> culture re what is offensive.   His remarks did not bother me because they 
> were "typically German."   Maybe me saying that will offend Holm... lol...

Hey, they weren't "typically German"... we don't want to make 
generalizations, do we?

> I think the best policy is to let as much as possible "slide" here in the 
> online world... as it's just way, way too easy to either take things the 
> wrong way, or much more heavily than intended, or whatever.

I absolutely agree.

Christian

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 05:42:49 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 06:42:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
Message-ID: <20150905104249.430D918C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > does someone know if the schematics of the KDJ11-A (11/73 CPU) are
    > available in the public?

Not reading the list much, are we? :-)

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep  5 05:53:56 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:53:56 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051237230.32654@linuxserv.home>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051237230.32654@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <55EAC9C4.70509@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 12:40, Christian Corti wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>> culture re what is offensive.   His remarks did not bother me because
>> they were "typically German."   Maybe me saying that will offend
>> Holm... lol...
>
> Hey, they weren't "typically German"... we don't want to make
> generalizations, do we?

I agree. And I'm Swedish myself, but living in Switzerland. And 
traveling a fair amount. I prefer to not make generalizations based on 
ethnicity or background. If people freely and voluntary spend their time 
helping, I also try not to be sarcastic.

>> I think the best policy is to let as much as possible "slide" here in
>> the online world... as it's just way, way too easy to either take
>> things the wrong way, or much more heavily than intended, or whatever.
>
> I absolutely agree.

I agree in general, but there are limits. And for me, they were passed 
in the follow on discussions.

But hey. That's not a problem for me. Means I spend less time trying to 
find information and help someone. Means I have more time for other 
people or my own projects and issues.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 07:54:18 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 14:54:18 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150905125418.GA86614@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Holm. You may call it whatever you want.
> 
> I found your comments insulting.

..but that was never my intention.


> And following your advice I'll not 
> ignore you. Have fun.
> 
> 	Johnny

:-)

German saying "Nichts wird so hei? gegessen wie es gekocht wird"

Don't know if this is correct enghlish, nor if it's known:

"Nothing gets eaten as hot as it gets cooked"

Johnny I have a wish in exchange for your wish that I should
act more adult: Try to keep cool.

I know that I have sharp edges, but for sure I don't want to hurt
someone..

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 07:56:21 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 14:56:21 +0200
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
In-Reply-To: <20150905104249.430D918C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150905104249.430D918C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150905125621.GB86614@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     > does someone know if the schematics of the KDJ11-A (11/73 CPU) are
>     > available in the public?
> 
> Not reading the list much, are we? :-)
> 
> 	Noel

Huh? Have I missed something in the near past?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Sep  5 08:02:58 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 09:02:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <201509051302.JAA12895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't
> know, never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all,
> leaving the man that looks for help alone.

As a bystander, I would much rather see silence than some forty or
fifty "sorry, don't know anything about that" responses flooding the
list after every request for help.

Or, to put it another way, do _you_ post "sorry, I can't help"
responses to every post asking for help you can't help with?  I
certainly don't recall seeing you do so; have I just missed something?

As for the original topic - I barely know the DSSI _name_; I'm not sure
I've ever even seen a DSSI disk and I certainly am not competent to
help with the issue you posted about.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 08:16:26 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 09:16:26 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=-PWKb5OH0JFfZVVrfaP7BLofCwYvk7ypK+Pjx+k+7zow@mail.gmail.com>

The Maintenance Manual-II describes the procedures for checking and
adjusting the TC12 timing. It needs a lot more notes about using the Auto
Restart speed settings. This facility allows you to put the processor in
Single Step and have the Continue button automatically pressed ad a
controllable rate. If the rate is set too high you will see the LTD ACIP
Delay activate twice and measure a delay that is more than twice real value.

Most of the delays are controlled by M307 One Shot flip-chips. These boards
have Fairchild 9601 ICs in them. We didn't have any spares, so we bought
some on eBay just in case...

The TC12 has extensive maintenance capabilities and will let the processor
simulate just about any condition in the TC12. With a short toggle-in
program we were able to check all of the basic timing signals LTT TP0 L,
LTT TP2 L, LTT TP3 L, and LTT TP4 L signals. We adjusted LTD XTLK H from
9.15 us to 9.5 us according to the written notes in the maintenance manual,
where the spec was 9 us. We adjusted LTD TTOK, LTD TAPE FAIL Delay, LTD
ACIP Delay, and the Mark Clock.

Unfortunately none of these adjustments made any difference, and the
LINCtapes still misbehave.


-- 
Michael Thompson

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 08:59:06 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 09:59:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, william degnan wrote:

> I had fun taking 20 IBM pc's from Montreal to the usa.  I ended up 
> setting up a broker account to ship items in a rented van.  It was do 
> this or the items would be impounded.  I had to be escorted by flashing 
> lights custims police bacj into canada.  You can't simply drive through 
> customs without correct paperwork.  Stuck at border and customs for 6 
> hours.

When did this become so difficult?  Joe Thiemann gave me a literal car 
load of classic gear before he moved to Germany.  My wife and I made a day 
trip to Montreal and had absolutely no problems at the border coming back 
in.  I think the ICE agent found it amusing.  They took a brief look at 
the back seat, then asked what was in the trunk.  I said "..more of the 
same".  After a brief grimace, he waved me through.



-- 

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 09:12:28 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 10:12:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
Message-ID: <20150905141228.923A918C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    >> Not reading the list much, are we? :-)

    > Huh? Have I missed something in the near past?

That would be the implication, yes... :-)

But yes, you're in luck. I'm scanning them as we speak.

	Noel

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sat Sep  5 09:37:35 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 10:37:35 -0400
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>
References: <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>
Message-ID: <20150905143735.GW6924@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> [150905 09:59]:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, william degnan wrote:
> 
> > I had fun taking 20 IBM pc's from Montreal to the usa.  I ended up 
> > setting up a broker account to ship items in a rented van.  It was do 
> > this or the items would be impounded.  I had to be escorted by flashing 
> > lights custims police bacj into canada.  You can't simply drive through 
> > customs without correct paperwork.  Stuck at border and customs for 6 
> > hours.
> 
> When did this become so difficult?  Joe Thiemann gave me a literal car 
> load of classic gear before he moved to Germany.  My wife and I made a day 
> trip to Montreal and had absolutely no problems at the border coming back 
> in.  I think the ICE agent found it amusing.  They took a brief look at 
> the back seat, then asked what was in the trunk.  I said "..more of the 
> same".  After a brief grimace, he waved me through.

I think there's a difference between one or two (or more) items in the
back seat and a u-haul full of stuff too.

Though I've been hassled coming back into the US (never going into
Canada about computer stuff, they hassle me more about other things)
with just my personal computers I took on vacation...

Todd

From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Sep  5 09:57:40 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 07:57:40 -0700
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <20150905143735.GW6924@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>
 <20150905143735.GW6924@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <55EB02E4.1050905@jwsss.com>



On 9/5/2015 7:37 AM, Todd Goodman wrote:
> * Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> [150905 09:59]:
>> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, william degnan wrote:
>>
>>> I had fun taking 20 IBM pc's from Montreal to the usa.  I ended up
>>> setting up a broker account to ship items in a rented van.  It was do
>>> this or the items would be impounded.  I had to be escorted by flashing
>>> lights custims police bacj into canada.  You can't simply drive through
>>> customs without correct paperwork.  Stuck at border and customs for 6
>>> hours.
>> When did this become so difficult?  Joe Thiemann gave me a literal car
>> load of classic gear before he moved to Germany.  My wife and I made a day
>> trip to Montreal and had absolutely no problems at the border coming back
>> in.  I think the ICE agent found it amusing.  They took a brief look at
>> the back seat, then asked what was in the trunk.  I said "..more of the
>> same".  After a brief grimace, he waved me through.
> I think there's a difference between one or two (or more) items in the
> back seat and a u-haul full of stuff too.
>
> Though I've been hassled coming back into the US (never going into
> Canada about computer stuff, they hassle me more about other things)
> with just my personal computers I took on vacation...
>
> Todd
>
>
You can pick up and have registered any foreign built systems you want 
to take out of the country.  I used to do this with all my Nikon 
equipment,, since you know the Customs department is a subsidiary of 
Nippon Kogaku.

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep  5 10:06:57 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 10:06:57 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
Message-ID: <5F361D39AB714417877F05336A6EEB0C@CharlesHPLaptop>

Does anyone know what the switch register settings are for the PDP-8 disk 
diagnostics (found on diagpack2.rk05 and others)?
In particular, the AJRL** series (RL01/02 drive exercisers). Normally the SR 
is set to 0000 but when there's an error the program stops until a CR is 
typed.

I want the diagnostic to just print out that error and keep running. Trial 
and error might take a long time.
Without the source code there's no other good way except possibly to 
single-step through the program and look for the OSR command (which may also 
take a very long time).
thanks for any help.
-Charles


From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Sep  5 10:46:33 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 10:46:33 -0500
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051237230.32654@linuxserv.home>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <55EA2331.3050108@cimmeri.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509051237230.32654@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <55EB0E59.1070907@cimmeri.com>




> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>> culture re what is offensive.   His 
>> remarks did not bother me because 
>> they were "typically German."   Maybe 
>> me saying that will offend Holm... 
>> lol...
>
> On 9/5/2015 5:40 AM, Christian Corti 
> wrote:
> Hey, they weren't "typically 
> German"... we don't want to make 
> generalizations, do we?
>

> [Johnny B wrote:]
> I agree. And I'm Swedish myself, but 
> living in Switzerland. And traveling a 
> fair amount. I prefer to not make 
> generalizations based on ethnicity or 
> background. If people freely and 
> voluntary spend their time 
> helping, I also try not to be sarcastic. 
> Christian
>


    I knew right after I sent it that 
the Politically Correct police would 
soon show up on that remark of mine.. ;-)

   What I meant to say, is that the 
*manner* in which he spoke -- and not 
the exact words themselves -- in my very 
limited but still partial experience of 
the wonderful German people (I'm not 
being sarcastic), and having attended a 
German school from grades 4-8, that the 
manner of speaking was *typical* of 
German culture -- in this case, meaning 
a bit blunt, a bit sarcastic, and a bit 
impatient.

    Like it or not, different countries 
have differing styles re communication.  
If you've ever at least been to France 
or Belgium and spoken with enough people 
to form an impression, you can't deny 
this reality.   I'm not passing a 
judgement here.. it's neither good nor 
bad.. it just is what it is.. and I 
think it quite lovely.

    Like it or not, I stand by this 
opinion.  :-)

- John.

From dancohoe at oxford.net  Sat Sep  5 11:04:57 2015
From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:04:57 -0400
Subject: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
 trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041328370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <DB4BB408-CDCF-457D-9C53-EAFD05999776@platinum.net>
 <CANij+dde69gqk=kcYQWjdKadiC7R=5+oSXH7yWoOr5mRpcG4vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHWm1Ggdcz6pzycjvGi-BPJZp3oc5npMu0yi-8QkHh1AA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EA2BE7.3080609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509041902370.4880@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CABGJBufvkRbftGz7zfgsWd6Pj0cGYHyYdbGHw42+Dmp=G5ezpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509050955180.9816@z87>
Message-ID: <01a101d0e7f4$9cbbbc50$d63334f0$@oxford.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven
Hirsch
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 9:59 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Electronic devices and borders - Re: Possible road
trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back

On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, william degnan wrote:

>> I had fun taking 20 IBM pc's from Montreal to the usa.  I ended up 
>> setting up a broker account to ship items in a rented van.  It was do 
>> this or the items would be impounded.  I had to be escorted by 
>> flashing lights custims police bacj into canada.  You can't simply 
>> drive through customs without correct paperwork.  Stuck at border and 
>> customs for 6 hours.

>When did this become so difficult?  Joe Thiemann gave me a literal car load
of classic gear before he moved to Germany.  My wife and I made a day trip
to Montreal and had absolutely no problems at >the border coming back in.  I
think the ICE agent found it amusing.  They took a brief look at the back
seat, then asked what was in the trunk.  I said "..more of the same".  After
a brief grimace, he >waved me through.

I believe the issue going to the USA is with "commercial" vs "personal
property".  AFAIK, US CBP has discretion on commercial up to a value of
$2500 regarding pre-notification and a customs broker requirement but
recently it seems like they are not allowing anything commercial without
full procedures. 

I think a US Citizen or Resident Alien would have little trouble getting
through to the USA as long as whatever they were bring in is identified as
personal property.

I have been turned back coming from Canada to VCF MW with a load of "trading
items" in my station wagon.  They required a broker and none would take
walk-in clients.  However, no flashing lights escort staged to get me back
to Canada.

There are only two options on the form they ask you to sign:  (a.)  US
Citizen or resident with personal property or,   (b.)  Commercial goods.   

Recently I inquired about establishing a relationship with a broker and quit
when asked for a $700 surety bond by the broker.  I tried only one broker so
maybe others would require less. 

On the Canadian side, last time I brought commercial stuff through, I was
allowed to fill out all the required forms at the border without any
pre-notification of arrival etc.  They have computers set up for importers
to enter the documents online right at the counter.  It's a good idea to
organize yourself with knowledge of how to complete the forms before you
show up.

Will be testing the system going south again soon.

Dan
-- 



From js at cimmeri.com  Sat Sep  5 11:13:25 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 11:13:25 -0500
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <201509051302.JAA12895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509051302.JAA12895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <55EB14A5.8050203@cimmeri.com>



On 9/5/2015 8:02 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't
>> know, never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all,
>> leaving the man that looks for help alone.
> As a bystander, I would much rather see silence than some forty or
> fifty "sorry, don't know anything about that" responses flooding the
> list after every request for help.

I couldn't agree more, Mouse!  lol.

Holm, dude!   I'm not speaking for 
others, of course, but it is bothersome 
*to me* when someone posts to this list 
(or any other helpful list) with an air 
of entitlement and expectation that 
people are going to *immediately* 
provide *insane amounts* of spot-on 
support for whatever their problem is 
(no matter how esoteric), or even 
respond at all.      All responses are 
voluntary -- and we should all be 
gracious and thankful for *anything we 
get*.. and certainly not disparage the 
list if we get nothing.

Nothing is OWED to ANYONE.

Yet, in this regard, there are worse 
transgressions than Holm's faux pas.   
Some people seem to believe that these 
lists are staffed with paid technicians; 
they exert almost no effort in 
describing their system or situation or 
question ("How do I boot my S-100 
system?"), yet they seem to expect pages 
written back; and even more remarkably, 
some even give little to no thanks when 
it's all done.

It's a testament to the enormous 
generosity and kindness of many on this 
list and others, that people such as 
what I just described are uncritically 
catered to.

- John



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep  5 11:20:45 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 11:20:45 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
Message-ID: <CACFA8925F3945BBBCBAF1C1EF2424CA@CharlesHPLaptop>

I got lucky with a little trial & error. Setting the MSB of the SR (i.e. 
7000) causes AJRLIA to report an error but then keep testing.
Not sure if this works for all the AJ**** diagnostics but hopefully DEC had 
some kind of pseudo-standard for this...


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  5 11:20:20 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 16:20:20 +0000
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EB14A5.8050203@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se> <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509051302.JAA12895@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>,
 <55EB14A5.8050203@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D33C6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> > As a bystander, I would much rather see silence than some forty or
> > fifty "sorry, don't know anything about that" responses flooding the
> > list after every request for help.
> 
> I couldn't agree more, Mouse!  lol.

\begin{aolmode}

Me too

\end{aolmode}

Nobody here knows everything, and for everyone (or even all the regulars) to
say 'I don't know' every time is going to make the list unusable fast.

> Holm, dude!   I'm not speaking for
> others, of course, but it is bothersome
> *to me* when someone posts to this list
> (or any other helpful list) with an air
> of entitlement and expectation that
> people are going to *immediately*
> provide *insane amounts* of spot-on
> support for whatever their problem is
> (no matter how esoteric), or even
> respond at all.      All responses are
> voluntary -- and we should all be
> gracious and thankful for *anything we
> get*.. and certainly not disparage the
> list if we get nothing.

There is one, and only one, way of ensuring I give a reply. And that is to 
pay my consultancy rates (which are not cheap!). I suspect the same applies
to others here.

If I agree to do a piece of work for you, and you pay me, then of course I will
do it to the best of my ability. That is what you are paying for. But note also
that I have to agree to do it. In this case I would not do so. Not for any
personal reasons but because I know nothing about DSSI disks or the RF73,
I have no manuals on them, I have no way of getting such manuals, My VAX
has an R80 drive, my PDP11s have RK05s, RK07s and RL's. Ask about those and 
I might be able to help.

> Nothing is OWED to ANYONE.

My experience of this list is that people will go out of their way to help each
other. But only if they can. 

I think a reasonable conclusion is that nobody has any service information on the
RF73. It's a pity, and I would love to be proved wrong, but...

-tony

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep  5 11:24:30 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:24:30 +0200
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
In-Reply-To: <CACFA8925F3945BBBCBAF1C1EF2424CA@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <CACFA8925F3945BBBCBAF1C1EF2424CA@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <55EB173E.4020400@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 18:20, Charles wrote:
> I got lucky with a little trial & error. Setting the MSB of the SR (i.e.
> 7000) causes AJRLIA to report an error but then keep testing.
> Not sure if this works for all the AJ**** diagnostics but hopefully DEC
> had some kind of pseudo-standard for this...

Nit picking: The MSB would be 4000. :-)
But yes, DEC often did use similar bits for similar purposes in 
different diagnostics, especially if they are for the same device. So 
there is a fair chance that you'll get the same effect from other 
diagnostics with the same switch register settings.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 12:10:14 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 13:10:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150905171014.3E83118C0D5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > we now have the 11/73 prints, which I will be scanning Real Soon Now.

OK, done:

 http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP01890_KDJ11-A_Jan84.pdf

Can the appropriate people please download this to all the right places
(e.g. repositories)?


Don't be misled by the svelte 1.5MB size; they were scanned at 600dpi, and
there is a _ton_ of resolution in there (you can go way past the '100%'
setting on Adobe Reader without getting pixellation).

The originals were in really rough shape (torn, written on, etc), but I think
the results are fully legible. I looked quickly, and found a couple of issues,
where there was writing which obscured things on the scans, and fixed the
images manually to show what's on the original prints. However, I didn't have
the energy to look at every detail of every page, so if something comes up
un-readable, let me know, and I'll issue a fixed set.

(There are some places which aren't legible, e.g. lower right pins of E9 on
K3, but the original prints aren't legible there either, so there's nothing I
can do about that; it's possible to work out what the pin numbers are,
though.)


And a _HUGE_ 'Thank You' to Paul Anderson for lending me the print set so I
could scan them for everyone!


    > That does leave us needing the 11/83/84 CPU prints, so if anyone has a
    > set...

Can I repeat my appeal for these? They are for the KDJ11-B (M8190). With this
board being so recent, surely someone must have a set? I'd be happy to do the
work of scanning them, if someone has originals but isn't up to the scanning
part.

	Noel

From db at db.net  Sat Sep  5 12:21:31 2015
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 13:21:31 -0400
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <20150905042937.GB29152@lonesome.com>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
 <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905042937.GB29152@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <20150905172131.GA35504@night.db.net>

On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 11:29:37PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 11:30:31PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > I had that experience going to Ottawa via a small crossing in upstate
> > NY.
> 
> In fact that is probably the exact one I had the 2hr experience at :-)
> 
> mcl
> 

Which one? Thousand Islands?

-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From menadeau at comcast.net  Sat Sep  5 12:51:08 2015
From: menadeau at comcast.net (menadeau at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 17:51:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Cleaning out library, part 2
In-Reply-To: <226937233.13400681.1441475222289.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <361769455.13401741.1441475468012.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>

Awhile ago, I offered some books for free to list members. Now I've got another list of books and other items I want to get rid of. Again, they are free to list members. All I ask it to pay shipping fees--most of this can be sent by media mail. First-come, first-serve. Happy to answer any questions about these items. 



BOOKS 


Analog Devices Analog-Digital Conversion Handbook (1972) 


Artificial Reality (Krueger, Addison-Wesley, 1983 


Basic Microprocessors and the 6800 (Bishop/Motorola, Hayden Press, 1979) 


Complexification: Explaining a paradoxical world through the science of surprise (Casti, Harper Collins, 1994) 


Computer Selections: Reading in Data Processing and Computer Science (Benice, McGraw-Hill, 1971) 


Cyberstates 2001: A State-by-State Overview of the High Technology Industry (NASDAQ and American Electronics Association) 


Essential PC-DOS Second Edition (Shaw & Shaw, Sybex, 1985) 


Externally Defined Body Parts (Body Part 15) Issues and Recommendations: A White Paper Prepared for the PRMD Operators Committee of the Electronic Mail Association (Banan, EMA, 1993) 


Future Codes: Essays in Advanced Computer Technology and the Law (Karnow, Artech House,1994) 


Guidelines for Evaluating Computerized Instructional Materials (National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, 1981 


High-Tech Espionage: How the KGB Smuggles NATO?s Strategic Secrets to Moscow (Tuck, St. Martins, 1986) 


Hyper-G Now Hyperwave the Next Generation Web SOlution (Maurer, Addison-Wesley, 1996) 


In Our Own Image: Building an Artificial Person (Caudill, Oxford Press, 1992) 


Machine Beauty: Elegance and the Heart of COmputing (Gelernter, Harper Collins,1997) This is an uncorrected proof copy 


Mastering Windows 98 (Cowart, Sybex, 1998) 


Microman: Computers and the Evolution of Consciousness ( Pask, MacMillan, 1982) 


Mind Tools: THe Five Levels of Mathematical Reality (Rucker, Houghton Mifflin, 1987) 


NetResults: Integrating the Internet into Your Business, Fall Workshop Proceedings, MIT Enterprise Forum, 1997 


Philips New Media Systems New Developments in Optical Media paper, 1990s 


Philips New Media Systems Philips in the Age of Optical Disc Media paper, 1990s 


Picture Perfect: Color Output for Computer Graphics (Tektronix, 1991) 


Science Technology and the First Amendment Special Report (US Congress Office of Technology Assessment, 1988) 


Solid State Circuit Guidebook (Ward, Tab Books, 1974) 


Tandy Corporation: Start on a Shoestring (West, 1968) 


Teach Yourself the Internet and WOrld Wide Web Visually (maranGraphics, IDG Books, 1997) 


The Fifth Generation: Artificial Intelligence and Japan?s Computer Challenge to the World, Fiegenbaum & McCorduck, Addison-Wesley, 1983) 


The Future Does Not Compute: Transcending the Machines in Our Midst (Talbott, O?Reilly, 1995) 


THe Playful World: How Technology is Transforming Our Imagination (Pesce, Ballantine Books, 2000) 


The Second Self: Computers and the Human Spirit (Turkle, Simon & Schuster, 1984) 


Using Supercalc 5 2nd Edition (Lateer, Que, 1989) 


Using Wordperfect 3rd Edition (Beacham & Beacham, Que, 1987) 



MANUALS 


Lotus 1-2-3 Release 2.2 Reference 


Transistor Manual, Light-Weight Edition (GE, 1969) 


Voltage Regulator Handbook (National Semiconductor, 1975) 


Westinghouse Series 100 Programmable Solid State Control Users Guide 1975 


MISC. 


80 Micro 1980-1981-1982 Permuted Index 


Argonne National Laboratory Zero Gradient Synchotron folder. Contents are Argonne HR material, not about the Synchotron. 


Cybertown online community presentation in folder with floppy of images, 1990s. 


Instant Software 3-ring binder, plastic, empty 


Jade Computer newsprint catalog winter 1988 


POSTERS 


Arche Technologies computer line, large format 


Borland Turbo Lightning, unused 


Borland Word Wizard, unused 


SOFTWARE 


Battery Disk 2.07. Untested 5.25? floppy, for PC 


Qmodem, 1990s, 5.25? floppy and manual still in shrink wrap, for PC 



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Sep  5 13:06:54 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 13:06:54 -0500
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <001501d0e805$a6b33fb0$f419bf10$@classiccmp.org>

This thread has migrated into the realm of "should be handled off-list".

J



From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 10:32:25 2015
From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 17:32:25 +0200
Subject: FS PDP11/34
Message-ID: <CADgm8uw2QxHJx8TqrB6Tq1AAG3okTTpJtB1zHfLQWNgooB=P1g@mail.gmail.com>

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/5206082834.html

-- 
Stephane

From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 10:32:25 2015
From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 17:32:25 +0200
Subject: FS PDP11/34
Message-ID: <CADgm8uw2QxHJx8TqrB6Tq1AAG3okTTpJtB1zHfLQWNgooB=P1g@mail.gmail.com>

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/5206082834.html

-- 
Stephane

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 10:40:37 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 11:40:37 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>

Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see where
it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with a
TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
"module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 5, 2015 3:37 AM, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:14 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, right?
> > Not sure because I found little about baud, etc.
>
> No.
>
> > I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11.  Maybe I
> am
> > missing something..can anyone share experiences?
>
> A TU10 master drive contains electronics[*] which allows it to be
> interfaced to a PDP-11 TM11 tape control. Said electronics is probably
> what's known as a formatter, though I haven't studied the TU10 in
> detail so I'm not 100% certain.
>
> A master TU10 can be used with up to seven TU10, TU20, TU30, or TU40
> slave transports.
>
> The TM11 controller has its own backplane, and may be mounted in the
> TU10 master drive. It connects to PDP-11 using the usual BC11-A Unibus
> cables.
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep  5 10:46:44 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 08:46:44 -0700
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>

On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
> I surprisingly found little
> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
> these are not super common

They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors to be bad
in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.

Honk!!

If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!





From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep  5 10:47:29 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 08:47:29 -0700
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55EB0E91.5040804@bitsavers.org>

On 9/5/15 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
>> I surprisingly found little
>> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
>> these are not super common
>
> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors to be bad
> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.
>
> Honk!!
>
> If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!
>

And the basic tape transport was reused in the TE-16




From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 11:00:34 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:00:34 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB0E91.5040804@bitsavers.org>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org> <55EB0E91.5040804@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucUALex03i++iBJ5PqTbt6BnfCUZmLSQ=O5Af7Q=e1pAw@mail.gmail.com>

Were common, but are there a lot in use today?  I am going to take some
photos, share with whomever is interested.  The plan is to clean
thoroughly, move into the basement and work to restore.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 9/5/15 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
>>
>>> I surprisingly found little
>>> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I
>>> guess
>>> these are not super common
>>>
>>
>> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors
>> to be bad
>> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.
>>
>> Honk!!
>>
>> If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!
>>
>>
> And the basic tape transport was reused in the TE-16
>
>
>
>


-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep  5 11:21:26 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:21:26 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucUALex03i++iBJ5PqTbt6BnfCUZmLSQ=O5Af7Q=e1pAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org> <55EB0E91.5040804@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBucUALex03i++iBJ5PqTbt6BnfCUZmLSQ=O5Af7Q=e1pAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EB1686.6@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 18:00, william degnan wrote:
> Were common, but are there a lot in use today?  I am going to take some
> photos, share with whomever is interested.  The plan is to clean
> thoroughly, move into the basement and work to restore.

I would say they are rather uncommon today. We're basically talking 
about a 40 year old tape drive with vacuum colons. Many things that age 
badly, not to mention lots were tossed when they became unfashionable.
And vacuum colon drives do require a bit more time and understanding to 
work on in the first place.

I have a TU10 at home, connected to my PDP8, but I doubt the drive is 
working anymore. I haven't powered it on in over 10 years...

	Johnny

>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/5/15 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
>>>
>>>> I surprisingly found little
>>>> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I
>>>> guess
>>>> these are not super common
>>>>
>>>
>>> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors
>>> to be bad
>>> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.
>>>
>>> Honk!!
>>>
>>> If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!
>>>
>>>
>> And the basic tape transport was reused in the TE-16
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 11:57:17 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 11:57:17 -0500
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB1686.6@update.uu.se>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org> <55EB0E91.5040804@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBucUALex03i++iBJ5PqTbt6BnfCUZmLSQ=O5Af7Q=e1pAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB1686.6@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPUphwzGinTs1EBtoMX-DqBLrdBfF4tG2F+u0oZTQNxXQ@mail.gmail.com>

That is one of a handful of DEC items I'm still looking for, so if anyone
has an extra or running out of room, please contact me off list.

I would plan on the capstan being shot also. Anyone have any extras?

Paul



On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-05 18:00, william degnan wrote:
>
>> Were common, but are there a lot in use today?  I am going to take some
>> photos, share with whomever is interested.  The plan is to clean
>> thoroughly, move into the basement and work to restore.
>>
>
> I would say they are rather uncommon today. We're basically talking about
> a 40 year old tape drive with vacuum colons. Many things that age badly,
> not to mention lots were tossed when they became unfashionable.
> And vacuum colon drives do require a bit more time and understanding to
> work on in the first place.
>
> I have a TU10 at home, connected to my PDP8, but I doubt the drive is
> working anymore. I haven't powered it on in over 10 years...
>
>         Johnny
>
>
>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/5/15 8:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I surprisingly found little
>>>>> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I
>>>>> guess
>>>>> these are not super common
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors
>>>> to be bad
>>>> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.
>>>>
>>>> Honk!!
>>>>
>>>> If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the basic tape transport was reused in the TE-16
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Sep  5 12:43:19 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 12:43:19 -0500
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EB29B7.6030901@pico-systems.com>

On 09/05/2015 10:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
> Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see where
> it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with a
> TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
> "module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
> these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
> out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.
>
>
We had some old Datum mag tape controllers that copied the 
TM-11 register layout.  These were used with a variety of 
Pertec unformatted drives.

Jon

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  5 11:26:25 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:26:25 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS399BE4F325D41C7CCBF5C586560@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: william degnan
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 5:40 PM
To: cctech
Subject: Re: Tu10 pdp11

Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see where
it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with a
TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
"module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 5, 2015 3:37 AM, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:14 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, 
> > right?
> > Not sure because I found little about baud, etc.
>
> No.
>
> > I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11.  Maybe I
> am
> > missing something..can anyone share experiences?
>
> A TU10 master drive contains electronics[*] which allows it to be
> interfaced to a PDP-11 TM11 tape control. Said electronics is probably
> what's known as a formatter, though I haven't studied the TU10 in
> detail so I'm not 100% certain.
>
> A master TU10 can be used with up to seven TU10, TU20, TU30, or TU40
> slave transports.
>
> The TM11 controller has its own backplane, and may be mounted in the
> TU10 master drive. It connects to PDP-11 using the usual BC11-A Unibus
> cables.

======
I may be wrong, but then again, this might be useful ...
The TE16 is nearly (?) identical to the TU10. My guess is that the TU10
is just a bit older. My TE16 has a MASSBUS interface, so I cannot
compare on that side. However, the TE16 also is either master or slave.
And to a master can be connected 7 slaves. The interconnection is three
40-wire flat cables.
ISTR that the interface for the TU10 is a 4-slot backplane, and I
think it is called TMB11. The TMB11 is also used to hook up the TS03.
So you need the 4-slot backplane in the master tape drive, and the
4-slot TMB11 backplane in the CPU or expansion box.
This is from (old) memory cells, so I could be wrong!
- Henk 


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  5 11:39:58 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 18:39:58 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS464BF6846642D64AA8FE1886560@phx.gbl>

Quick documentation check ... I think I made a mistake :-(
TM11 and TMB11 are very different!
I am no longer sure that you can connect a TU10 to a TMB11.
Should probably indeed be a TM11.

I should check docs first, next time ...
Apologies,
- Henk

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 13:13:21 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 11:13:21 -0700
Subject: FS PDP11/34
In-Reply-To: <CADgm8uw2QxHJx8TqrB6Tq1AAG3okTTpJtB1zHfLQWNgooB=P1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADgm8uw2QxHJx8TqrB6Tq1AAG3okTTpJtB1zHfLQWNgooB=P1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJo85SDE2t5FQ9mQPP9DSbDKrkOV5LrvaF6mrN+t4Febg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sep 5, 2015 11:08 AM, "St?phane Tsacas" <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/sys/5206082834.html
>

That one just sold on eBay. Maybe someone is trying to turn it around for a
quick profit.

www.ebay.com/itm/291556291009

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 13:25:28 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 14:25:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
Message-ID: <20150905182528.8786D18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From william degnan

    > I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were "module/card" or
    > backplane interface.

I think pretty much all that earliest generation of UNIBUS interfaces were
stand-alone backplanes (i.e. 19" wide things that went in an H960 in a fixed
location, and were filled with the small Flip Chip modules); the RK11-C,
RP11-C, RF11, and TC11 all are.

    > I surprisingly found little commentary or threads about the TU10 /
    > TM11, other than DEC docs. I guess these are not super common 

Yeah, I think they were the first PDP-11 tape drives - not as rare as RF11's
now, but pretty rare.

	Noel

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 16:24:18 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 23:24:18 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D33C6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se> <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EB14A5.8050203@cimmeri.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D33C6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <20150905212418.GA34585@beast.freibergnet.de>

tony duell wrote:

> > > As a bystander, I would much rather see silence than some forty or
> > > fifty "sorry, don't know anything about that" responses flooding the
> > > list after every request for help.
> > 
> > I couldn't agree more, Mouse!  lol.
> 
> \begin{aolmode}
> 
> Me too
> 
> \end{aolmode}
> 
> Nobody here knows everything, and for everyone (or even all the regulars) to
> say 'I don't know' every time is going to make the list unusable fast.
> 
> > Holm, dude!   I'm not speaking for
> > others, of course, but it is bothersome
> > *to me* when someone posts to this list
> > (or any other helpful list) with an air
> > of entitlement and expectation that
> > people are going to *immediately*
> > provide *insane amounts* of spot-on
> > support for whatever their problem is
> > (no matter how esoteric), or even
> > respond at all.      All responses are
> > voluntary -- and we should all be
> > gracious and thankful for *anything we
> > get*.. and certainly not disparage the
> > list if we get nothing.
> 
> There is one, and only one, way of ensuring I give a reply. And that is to 
> pay my consultancy rates (which are not cheap!). I suspect the same applies
> to others here.
> 
> If I agree to do a piece of work for you, and you pay me, then of course I will
> do it to the best of my ability. That is what you are paying for. But note also
> that I have to agree to do it. In this case I would not do so. Not for any
> personal reasons but because I know nothing about DSSI disks or the RF73,
> I have no manuals on them, I have no way of getting such manuals, My VAX
> has an R80 drive, my PDP11s have RK05s, RK07s and RL's. Ask about those and 
> I might be able to help.
> 
> > Nothing is OWED to ANYONE.
> 
> My experience of this list is that people will go out of their way to help each
> other. But only if they can. 
> 
> I think a reasonable conclusion is that nobody has any service information on the
> RF73. It's a pity, and I would love to be proved wrong, but...
> 
> -tony


Is there someone left that has to say something me that isn't helpful
but annoying to me?
If yes, please use this thread stub here.
My consulting rates are approx 80 Euros/hour + VAT, may be cheap, but I give me
answers for free exactly here.



Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Sep  5 16:25:08 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 23:25:08 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <001501d0e805$a6b33fb0$f419bf10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <001501d0e805$a6b33fb0$f419bf10$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150905212508.GB34585@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jay West wrote:

> This thread has migrated into the realm of "should be handled off-list".
> 
> J
> 
agree..

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 16:46:17 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 16:46:17 -0500
Subject: Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back
In-Reply-To: <20150905172131.GA35504@night.db.net>
References: <CACwhfuOabeeuTjn2p3V5u2wR3NjX7qdsFUOAY_H8+chiZk5_8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E9CB80.7030002@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+deBu9n9TVCXBckhjA30NwrA71PiGsamM7=AVfyQitSP3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905010134.GA17409@lonesome.com>
 <CAALmimkjowhRz3mUy_OsnZr4HKLc0BVnae1CfUV=BzbhQWxy_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150905042937.GB29152@lonesome.com>
 <20150905172131.GA35504@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOUF2-a-vXqkQj=d5M2_M8D2bb8w6-FWx8p7ddy2fR8Bg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Diane,

We might go from the falls to 1000 islands on the Canadian side then take
81 s to Syracuse or the falls to Syracuse then 81 n to 1000 islands. not
sure yet. either way, fror Syracuse toward Boston area.


Paul

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 11:29:37PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 11:30:31PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > > I had that experience going to Ottawa via a small crossing in upstate
> > > NY.
> >
> > In fact that is probably the exact one I had the 2hr experience at :-)
> >
> > mcl
> >
>
> Which one? Thousand Islands?
>
> --
> - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
>

From simski at dds.nl  Sat Sep  5 15:35:14 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 22:35:14 +0200
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <55EB5202.6090207@dds.nl>



Hi all.

is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?

I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and plugged in 
the ribbon cable connecting connector C and D the wrong way. some magic 
smoke came loose and there are a few chips broken . :-(

by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect 
chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v...

The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but 
other boards could well be affected.

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From djg at pdp8online.com  Sat Sep  5 16:16:41 2015
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 17:16:41 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
References: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150905211641.GA7080@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Sat, Sep 05, 2015 at 08:46:44AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/5/15 8:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
> >I surprisingly found little
> >commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
> >these are not super common
> 
> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors 
> to be bad
> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.
> 
I have a working one on an 8. It took a lot of work to get it to that state.
http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml

http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe09/vcfe09.shtml

9 track drives don't seem to be that popular to collect. I think the
vacuum column drives are interesting to watch. The IBM ones are nicer but this
one is easier to move. And from the old movies isn't not a computer if it
doesn't have spinning tapes. 

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Sep  5 17:32:49 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 16:32:49 -0600
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <20150905211641.GA7080@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
References: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
 <20150905211641.GA7080@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
Message-ID: <55EB6D91.8010207@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/5/2015 3:16 PM, David Gesswein wrote:

> 9 track drives don't seem to be that popular to collect. I think the
> vacuum column drives are interesting to watch. The IBM ones are nicer but this
> one is easier to move. And from the old movies isn't not a computer if it
> doesn't have spinning tapes.
>
>
I thought it was the feminine voice, for all but Hal 9000.
Ben.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Sep  5 17:36:32 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 16:36:32 -0600
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB6D91.8010207@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
 <20150905211641.GA7080@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <55EB6D91.8010207@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55EB6E70.4090806@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/5/2015 4:32 PM, ben wrote:
> On 9/5/2015 3:16 PM, David Gesswein wrote:
>
>> 9 track drives don't seem to be that popular to collect. I think the
>> vacuum column drives are interesting to watch. The IBM ones are nicer
>> but this
>> one is easier to move. And from the old movies isn't not a computer if it
>> doesn't have spinning tapes.
>>
>>
> I thought it was the feminine voice, for all but Hal 9000.
> Ben.
>
Unlock the Car Doors Hal?
Sorry I can do that Dave.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep  5 17:40:25 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  5 Sep 2015 18:40:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
Message-ID: <20150905224025.8620318C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: David Gesswein

    > I have a working one on an 8. It took a lot of work to get it to that
    > state.
    >
    > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml

Wow. That is a really awesome repair job you did there. My hat is off...

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 18:56:05 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 19:56:05 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <20150905224025.8620318C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150905224025.8620318C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufOfCWENFyasz5W5591qvCEeTnh51rp63SArmXw8-Pv6w@mail.gmail.com>

I am just getting started.  Here are a few pictures
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/

My immediate goal is to clean, disassemble and then get it into the
basement before the stink bug season starts.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: David Gesswein
>
>     > I have a working one on an 8. It took a lot of work to get it to that
>     > state.
>     >
>     > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml
>
> Wow. That is a really awesome repair job you did there. My hat is off...
>
>         Noel
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 19:10:59 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 20:10:59 -0400
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
Message-ID: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  I must admit
time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one!  (I have
the manuals at least)


-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep  5 19:39:11 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 19:39:11 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
Message-ID: <68BED3D7090E4CD688A222E8B80DB557@CharlesHPLaptop>

Looks like I spoke too soon. The dreaded RL8A failure has returned!

I made a new OS/8 RL02 pack on vtserver (took the expected three hours at 
9600 baud console speed). Booted up the 8/A, so far so good.
But then Drive 0 faulted and OS/8 crashed... restarted and it crashed a few 
seconds later again.

I flexed the middle of the RL8A upwards and the system worked. For a while. 
Then it crashed and wouldn't reboot.
Back to where I was earlier in the week - won't even allow SerialDisk to 
boot if the RL8A is in the backplane. OS/8 on the SerialDisk virtual RK05 
works flawlessly if the card is removed.

Obviously there is still an intermittent which has come back. Maybe there's 
a tiny thread of something conductive stuck under one of the IC's and I 
managed to temporarily clear it as I described.
Anyhow I am resuming my search for a good RL8A. I have wasted enough 
man-hours on this flaky board.

thanks
Charles


From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Sep  5 21:00:28 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 21:00:28 -0500
Subject: Dec 8235 IC?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W58A3B032E98248421117FEA3560@phx.gbl>
References: <5585B427.2080601@snarc.net> <55E7FF53.9080801@dds.nl>
 <55E81314.1020008@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAKtEYUx4tWEQWkkt7Gews3sDQC+Sbfvdhc4OTnYiOsDhS2=_fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55E8CBD5.7010605@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU168-W54F1DCB289FA2D0D2C1E76A3570@phx.gbl> <55E9B2ED.7080201@charter.net>
 <CAALmimmAO6T8-B+z+Hsb30tno9_R3iqsJsTS1Bop10TMJoMQHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W58A3B032E98248421117FEA3560@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55EB9E3C.60707@charter.net>

On 9/4/2015 11:10 PM, dwight wrote:

> The idea for using the tristate control for an OC output has been
> used many times before.
> An example is on the SwyftCard for the Apple 2e.
> It needed a OC for the reset as I recall and the PAL used
> that trick.
> The only possible issue is the limited current drive for older
> DTL circuits.
> Dwight
>  
>  		 	   		  

Exactly - whether you can use the trick depends on what is connected to
that OC output.

JRJ


From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Sep  5 21:08:50 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 21:08:50 -0500
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EBA032.1030907@charter.net>

On 9/5/2015 7:10 PM, william degnan wrote:
> Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  I must admit
> time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one!  (I have
> the manuals at least)
> 

I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out one
or two more. Ya never know.

JRJ


From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Sep  5 20:54:31 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 20:54:31 -0500
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>

On 9/5/2015 10:40 AM, william degnan wrote:

> Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see where
> it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with a
> TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
> "module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I guess
> these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
> out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.
> 
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On Sep 5, 2015 3:37 AM, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 

Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
(but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
the drive to the TM11 controller.

The TM11 connects to the PDP-11 UNIBUS.

The TU10 master drive backplane has some "G" cards in it.  The TM11,
mounted separately, does NOT have any "G" cards in it.

JRJ

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 21:47:39 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 22:47:39 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuct8Q4eJ9Kr7aR19_KyC3Fw6B2LkTFEt873vfmNE7EoxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. There are 2 backplanes at 90 degrees of each other installed in the
cabinet.  2 separate power supplies.    I still need to inventory the cards
and look up what they are configured to do.   I have cables.  Just getting
started.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 5, 2015 9:52 PM, "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/5/2015 10:40 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
> > Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see
> where
> > it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with
> a
> > TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
> > "module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
> > commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I
> guess
> > these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
> > out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.
> >
> > Bill Degnan
> > twitter: billdeg
> > vintagecomputer.net
> > On Sep 5, 2015 3:37 AM, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
> PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
> (but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
> the drive to the TM11 controller.
>
> The TM11 connects to the PDP-11 UNIBUS.
>
> The TU10 master drive backplane has some "G" cards in it.  The TM11,
> mounted separately, does NOT have any "G" cards in it.
>
> JRJ
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 22:19:05 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 23:19:05 -0400
Subject: Burroughs A 584 card reader available
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOQ=EOG6380sBLuuEGRAPrH4qM+vYebGPDbA_8Q0a_t9A@mail.gmail.com>

If you are interested, contact me off list.

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Sep  5 22:44:27 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2015 23:44:27 -0400
Subject: CDC 6xxx manuals - was Re: Control Data 160 Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EBB69B.5080702@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-05 8:10 PM, william degnan wrote:
> Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  I must admit
> time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one!  (I have
> the manuals at least)
>
>

Speaking of CDC manuals, anyone with CDC 6000 series manuals they want 
to offload, I'd be happy to pay for shipping and asking price.

--Toby

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 23:16:07 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 00:16:07 -0400
Subject: 8 inch floppies-Wang, TRS80, Peachtree, perfect software, much more.
 Some 8 inch drives also.
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOnwdshJv5YzaqBjLgtT7zOT3o2yLGAp+b+aefuNdpj8A@mail.gmail.com>

If interested, please contact me off list.




Thanks, Paul

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 01:10:34 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 23:10:34 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
Message-ID: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com>

Hi all --

I've been working on getting a Xerox 1186 workstation up and running 
again, using the floppy images on Bitsavers.  I have the "Medley" 
Interlisp-D software installed (after writing out and installing from 
~25 floppies) and running and I'm attempting to load in the related 
libraries and software (another 10-20 floppies or so).  Some of these 
libraries have dependencies on various font files, which I do not seem 
to have and haven't been able to track down.  I see vague references in 
the documentation to a floppy disk set labeled "Display Fonts" but these 
do not appear to be on Bitsavers.

 From writing out a few floppies and looking at their contents on the 
1186, I do not believe that these have any relationship to the Viewpoint 
Font disks (though if anyone knows differently, do let me know).

Anyone out there have any experience with this?  Anyone happen to have 
these floppies and/or images of them?

Thanks as always,
Josh

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 02:51:02 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 02:51:02 -0500
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150906075102.GA1111@gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 05, 2015, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Hi all --
> 
> I've been working on getting a Xerox 1186 workstation up and running again,
> using the floppy images on Bitsavers.  I have the "Medley" Interlisp-D
> software installed (after writing out and installing from ~25 floppies) and
> running and I'm attempting to load in the related libraries and software
> (another 10-20 floppies or so).  Some of these libraries have dependencies
> on various font files, which I do not seem to have and haven't been able to
> track down.  I see vague references in the documentation to a floppy disk
> set labeled "Display Fonts" but these do not appear to be on Bitsavers.
> 
> From writing out a few floppies and looking at their contents on the 1186, I
> do not believe that these have any relationship to the Viewpoint Font disks
> (though if anyone knows differently, do let me know).
> 
> Anyone out there have any experience with this?  Anyone happen to have these
> floppies and/or images of them?

I wonder if the poster of this message --
http://www.sunhelp.org/pipermail/rescue/2012-January/132294.html --
would have them. It's a bit of an old post, but maybe he still uses that
email and has them.

> 
> Thanks as always,
> Josh

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Sep  6 03:39:42 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 10:39:42 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EABFC1.6020502@update.uu.se>
References: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se> <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
 <55EABFC1.6020502@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150906083942.GA83972@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-09-05 12:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >Holm. You may call it whatever you want.
> >
> >I found your comments insulting. And following your advice I'll not
> >ignore you. Have fun.
> 
> s/not/now/
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> >


..my advice?

You don't want to ask what I think now.. specially to your hint do not to
be childish...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From gerardcjat at free.fr  Mon Sep  7 04:01:57 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 11:01:57 +0200
Subject: Reading ROMs
Message-ID: <213232C8E0DF4E308FF9C7FBC3A78CC7@medion>

List of blank for 21MX and microcode :
That would be very usefull. Thanks in advance

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  6 02:43:22 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 09:43:22 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS2748E9101F907D16C5574086550@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jay Jaeger
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 3:54 AM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Tu10 pdp11

On 9/5/2015 10:40 AM, william degnan wrote:

> Ok.  I checked my tu10, it has the backplane, it is a master.  I see where
> it connects using the backplane cable to the pdp11.  I never worked with a
> TU10 before and I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were
> "module/card" or backplane interface.  I surprisingly found little
> commentary or threads about the TU10 / TM11,  other than DEC docs.  I 
> guess
> these are not super common or people who have them have not often reached
> out to the classic cmp community, that I could find in a search.
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On Sep 5, 2015 3:37 AM, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>

Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
(but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
the drive to the TM11 controller.

The TM11 connects to the PDP-11 UNIBUS.

The TU10 master drive backplane has some "G" cards in it.  The TM11,
mounted separately, does NOT have any "G" cards in it.

JRJ

======

Yes, the TS03 also comes in two versions, master and slave. Underneath
the first drive is a quad module (M8920 IIRC) mounted, and that makes
the TS03 a master. One slave TS03 can be connected to the master.
The quad module connects to the TMB11 controller using a BC11 cable.
The BC11 is commonly for UNIBUS interconnection, but it is used for
several other purposes. TS03 to conttroller is one, RK05 is another
well-known example. TU10 is added to that list ;-)

I have one TU10, so I would be happy to find a TM11 ...

- Henk


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 03:15:04 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 02:15:04 -0600
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRsbAML77Tc5rSMGo0RVm9+nERQbJVenu=gjOnbGDKxJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
> PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
> (but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
> the drive to the TM11 controller.

That's true, but a TM11 controller can be installed in the TU10 master cabinet.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Sep  6 05:18:21 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 12:18:21 +0200
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
In-Reply-To: <20150905141228.923A918C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150905141228.923A918C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150906101821.GB86346@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     >> Not reading the list much, are we? :-)
> 
>     > Huh? Have I missed something in the near past?
> 
> That would be the implication, yes... :-)
> 
> But yes, you're in luck. I'm scanning them as we speak.
> 
> 	Noel

Sorry, I couldn't find a mailing about Schematics for the KDJ11-AA,
I've read that you got some documentation and want to scan it,
600dpi with some TIFF compression or so.. that's all.

Ok, I'm looking forward to possibly look at the schematics
at some time in the future, but I'm going now in my garage in he
backyard and try to find the fault.
Yes, got the KDJ11-AA and a memory board from that "cheap guy".
No, I'm not reading every singe mailing from that list.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep  6 05:59:53 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  6 Sep 2015 06:59:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
Message-ID: <20150906105953.262F018C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > Sorry, I couldn't find a mailing about Schematics for the KDJ11-AA,

http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-September/011849.html

    > I've read that you got some documentation and want to scan it, 600dpi
    > with some TIFF compression or so.. that's all.

Well, now I'm really confused, because AFAIK the message that talked about
the 600dpi and TIFF is the same one that thas the URL for the FMPS. So I
don't understand how you don't have them. Oh well.

    > No, I'm not reading every singe mailing from that list.

I don't either - there's often too much. But I do read everything that looks
like it could be DEC-related, and most of the other stuff too (it's kind of
fun to read about the really old machines, etc).

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep  6 06:47:35 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  6 Sep 2015 07:47:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
Message-ID: <20150906114735.1A17018C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jay Jaeger

    > I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out
    > one or two more.

Well, auctions like this are hopefully getting the word out that many of
these old computers are worth a lot more than scrap value.

Yes, it will cause some people to ask unrealistic amounts for them, but
better that than the other way: someone's who's asking too much can always
come down to reasonability, but someone who's scrapped a machine, well, it's
gone forever...

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep  6 07:14:46 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:14:46 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <20150905182528.8786D18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150905182528.8786D18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EC2E36.8090404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-05 20:25, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From william degnan
>
>      > I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were "module/card" or
>      > backplane interface.
>
> I think pretty much all that earliest generation of UNIBUS interfaces were
> stand-alone backplanes (i.e. 19" wide things that went in an H960 in a fixed
> location, and were filled with the small Flip Chip modules); the RK11-C,
> RP11-C, RF11, and TC11 all are.

Partly correct. All early Unibus controllers which did DMA had their own 
backplanes. Which is why the NPR is obnoxious on the Unibus. Unlike the 
BR lines, the NPR is normally always just jumpered in the backplane, and 
located away from the BR lines. When DMA on single cards became more 
common, this became an obvious issue on the Unibus. You have to cut the 
wire on the backplane, and when you remove the card you either have to 
reinsert the write, or get the bug grant card that is double height, 
which also do the NPR jumper.

But non-DMA controllers were single cards even back in the early days of 
the Unibus, like the DL-11.

(Early DMA controllers were all multiple cards, so having their own 
dedicated backplanes were a pretty sane idea.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep  6 07:20:00 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 07:20:00 -0500
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRsbAML77Tc5rSMGo0RVm9+nERQbJVenu=gjOnbGDKxJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTRsbAML77Tc5rSMGo0RVm9+nERQbJVenu=gjOnbGDKxJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EC2F70.6040906@charter.net>

On 9/6/2015 3:15 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>> Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
>> PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
>> (but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
>> the drive to the TM11 controller.
> 
> That's true, but a TM11 controller can be installed in the TU10 master cabinet.
> 

Of course.  Mine is set up that way - both in the same 19" rack (plus a
PDP-11/05 and a DECCassette drive and other stuff I could fit it).  But
remember that the original correspondent at first mentioned only ONE
backplane (singular), so I thought it prudent to point this out lest he
connect the TU10 to the UNIBUS with heaven only knows what bad things
could happen results.  Once he read my note, he provided more info which
did indicate he had two different backplanes.

JRJ

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 07:21:33 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 08:21:33 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EC2E36.8090404@update.uu.se>
References: <20150905182528.8786D18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC2E36.8090404@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueOS1FB9Yxf+r9GB-KqXYUttmxqznJ-=9raR_VaCJAwoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am going to see if I can find the card inventory and installtion guide
info for the TM11  so that I can confirm whether I indeed have one
installed in the TU10'S cabinet.  So far I have found little.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 6, 2015 8:14 AM, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-05 20:25, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>>      > From william degnan
>>
>>      > I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were "module/card"
>> or
>>      > backplane interface.
>>
>> I think pretty much all that earliest generation of UNIBUS interfaces were
>> stand-alone backplanes (i.e. 19" wide things that went in an H960 in a
>> fixed
>> location, and were filled with the small Flip Chip modules); the RK11-C,
>> RP11-C, RF11, and TC11 all are.
>>
>
> Partly correct. All early Unibus controllers which did DMA had their own
> backplanes. Which is why the NPR is obnoxious on the Unibus. Unlike the BR
> lines, the NPR is normally always just jumpered in the backplane, and
> located away from the BR lines. When DMA on single cards became more
> common, this became an obvious issue on the Unibus. You have to cut the
> wire on the backplane, and when you remove the card you either have to
> reinsert the write, or get the bug grant card that is double height, which
> also do the NPR jumper.
>
> But non-DMA controllers were single cards even back in the early days of
> the Unibus, like the DL-11.
>
> (Early DMA controllers were all multiple cards, so having their own
> dedicated backplanes were a pretty sane idea.)
>
>         Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep  6 07:22:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:22:49 +0200
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
In-Reply-To: <68BED3D7090E4CD688A222E8B80DB557@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <68BED3D7090E4CD688A222E8B80DB557@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <55EC3019.1000606@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-06 02:39, Charles wrote:
> Looks like I spoke too soon. The dreaded RL8A failure has returned!
>
> I made a new OS/8 RL02 pack on vtserver (took the expected three hours
> at 9600 baud console speed). Booted up the 8/A, so far so good.
> But then Drive 0 faulted and OS/8 crashed... restarted and it crashed a
> few seconds later again.
>
> I flexed the middle of the RL8A upwards and the system worked. For a
> while. Then it crashed and wouldn't reboot.
> Back to where I was earlier in the week - won't even allow SerialDisk to
> boot if the RL8A is in the backplane. OS/8 on the SerialDisk virtual
> RK05 works flawlessly if the card is removed.
>
> Obviously there is still an intermittent which has come back. Maybe
> there's a tiny thread of something conductive stuck under one of the
> IC's and I managed to temporarily clear it as I described.
> Anyhow I am resuming my search for a good RL8A. I have wasted enough
> man-hours on this flaky board.

If it works when you bend the card, I would suspect a bad connection, 
such as a cold solder. Of course, a short is also possible, but I 
wouldn't think that would do it.
While tedious, it might work just to resolder all the components on the 
RL8A.

The other thing to possibly look at is the bus connector. Check that 
there isn't some crap down in the slot. Have you tried the card in some 
other slot?

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 07:26:38 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 08:26:38 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EC2F70.6040906@charter.net>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB9CD7.3030309@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTRsbAML77Tc5rSMGo0RVm9+nERQbJVenu=gjOnbGDKxJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EC2F70.6040906@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufu8AN1pntMtj6n9BAXScWXjOJE_w9cNKM7wYBgsnOiAQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am the original poster, I have two planes of cards, not 1.  my link
pointed to a page with a thumbnail photo of one of the two planes, but
below that are links to more pics
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 6, 2015 8:18 AM, "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/6/2015 3:15 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> >> Just to be clear, a TU10, even a master, does NOT connect directly to a
> >> PDP-11.  Instead, a cable of the same general ilk as a BC11 UNIBUS Cable
> >> (but I have not verified it is in fact the same kind of cable) connects
> >> the drive to the TM11 controller.
> >
> > That's true, but a TM11 controller can be installed in the TU10 master
> cabinet.
> >
>
> Of course.  Mine is set up that way - both in the same 19" rack (plus a
> PDP-11/05 and a DECCassette drive and other stuff I could fit it).  But
> remember that the original correspondent at first mentioned only ONE
> backplane (singular), so I thought it prudent to point this out lest he
> connect the TU10 to the UNIBUS with heaven only knows what bad things
> could happen results.  Once he read my note, he provided more info which
> did indicate he had two different backplanes.
>
> JRJ
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sun Sep  6 07:37:19 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:37:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
References: <CABGJBuewSs8XbiNZNMEwEhGESy15i5pgqARuHrL7Ww6b1_iN_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudS96XM17_GNg_Vi+8D=9=jP2ikNsnzKp1CVh8ovBupaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufp6m3tG7sx7J67t+udid-WB8mHv8T+HAG7Yk3wgbtJjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufsyjSH4KbjkdGx2q=AGJSsKiyqvbMYz1+ykBTSn5fYkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRufRJq8mCpYttaCGsHtV31ao-T022dQPFhuds=A0pGww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBudAv8BjuCwQGf4Geiii_58rXVUqJ3GEr+=AdobMiXKg4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EB0E64.2070102@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509061431140.11238@linuxserv.home>

On Sat, 5 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> They were common. I worked on a bunch of them. Expect the vacuum sensors to 
> be bad
> in the columns. I think Guy still has a couple of them.

We've repaired them with cut outs from latex gloves. The problem is the 
membrane that became brittle with the time. Opening the sensors isn't 
trivial, though.

> Honk!!
>
> If you've ever loaded a tape on one, you know what that means!

Yes :-))

BTW has anyone ever tried to attach a non-DEC unformatted tape drive (e.g. 
I have two Wangco Model 10 800 bpi drives) as a slave to a master 
TU10/TM11 combo ?

Christian

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep  6 07:38:50 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  6 Sep 2015 08:38:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
Message-ID: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Johnny Billquist

    > Early DMA controllers were all multiple cards, so having their own
    > dedicated backplanes were a pretty sane idea.

Well, there was also that large intermediate generation which still had their
own backplanes, but they were 'system unit' (for lack of a defined term for
this form factor) backplanes (e.g. RK11-D, RH11, etc), which fit into e.g. a
BA11-K, along with other 'generic' UNIBUS backplanes (i.e. DD11-C, etc).

That first generation I spoke of (the one with backplanes that mounted
directly in H960's) are marked by the use of lots of small Flip Chip cards,
not the larger quad/hex boards that one finds in the 'second generation'
(above). I guess the larger board versions were cheaper to manufacture, which
is why they got rid of the first generation ones in favour of the second
generation (which were often functionally identical to the first-generation
ones they replaced, e.g. RK11-C and -D).

Those first-generation one used very similar construction technique to the
KA10 generation of machines, which also used that size Flip Chip (although a
different series, mostly with individual transistors), and heavier wire on the
bacplanes. What did KI10's use, does anyone know? I have this bit set that
they used roughly the same kind of Flip Chips as the 'first generation' PDP-11
DMA devices, but I've never seen a KI in person.

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep  6 08:12:10 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 15:12:10 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-06 14:38, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Johnny Billquist
>
>      > Early DMA controllers were all multiple cards, so having their own
>      > dedicated backplanes were a pretty sane idea.
>
> Well, there was also that large intermediate generation which still had their
> own backplanes, but they were 'system unit' (for lack of a defined term for
> this form factor) backplanes (e.g. RK11-D, RH11, etc), which fit into e.g. a
> BA11-K, along with other 'generic' UNIBUS backplanes (i.e. DD11-C, etc).
>
> That first generation I spoke of (the one with backplanes that mounted
> directly in H960's) are marked by the use of lots of small Flip Chip cards,
> not the larger quad/hex boards that one finds in the 'second generation'
> (above). I guess the larger board versions were cheaper to manufacture, which
> is why they got rid of the first generation ones in favour of the second
> generation (which were often functionally identical to the first-generation
> ones they replaced, e.g. RK11-C and -D).

Hm. Ok. Right. I was actually thinking along the lines of what you'd 
call the second generation then. However, it don't really make a 
difference. If the backplane is small, you can fit it in the same box as 
the rest of the machine. If not, you have it in its own cabinet. The 
principle is the same. You have a Unibus in, and a Unibus out. And 
everything in between is special for that controller. And you normally 
had this for things that did DMA. Simpler controllers usually fit into a 
single slot in a standard Unibus backplane.

I actually used to play with an RP11 once upon a very long time ago, 
which was a full 19" cabinet of its own.

> Those first-generation one used very similar construction technique to the
> KA10 generation of machines, which also used that size Flip Chip (although a
> different series, mostly with individual transistors), and heavier wire on the
> bacplanes. What did KI10's use, does anyone know? I have this bit set that
> they used roughly the same kind of Flip Chips as the 'first generation' PDP-11
> DMA devices, but I've never seen a KI in person.

I have played a little with KA-10 and KI-10. And yes, there are 
similarities.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep  6 08:35:47 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  6 Sep 2015 09:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mostek MK8022 QBUS memory repair tips
Message-ID: <20150906133547.D365718C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I have one of these Mostek memory cards, and it was non-functional, and a
Google didn't reveal _anything_ online about them.

The fault was a couple of picked bits, so I started off tracing the signal
paths for those bits from the bus fingers, to the transceivers, to an octal
latch, etc - and then it dawned on me that this card has two banks (i.e. it
has a 9x4 array of xx64 64Kx1 chips; i.e. to provide 16 bits wide plus byte
parity, there are two groups of 18 chips), and one bank was picking, and the
other was not. So that meant that data paths were all OK, it was a simple
matter of finding some bad memory chips.

(It turns out that diagnostic heuristic is quite useful, since many PDP-11
semiconductor memory cards have two banks of xxKx1 chips; so if you have
dropped/picked bits, look to see if both banks have the same fault. If 'no',
it's pretty much guaranteed to be a memory chip, and it should be easy to
find. I just fixed for someone an M8044 with this failure mode, without doing
any hardware debugging at all; the symptoms, and the prints, were all I
needed.)

There was nothing to indicate which banks/bits were where on the MK8022, but
by pulling memory chips (luckily, they were socketed, so this was pretty
painless), I managed to work it out (unlike many memory cards, it's not
semi-random). For reference for others, here it is:

Low bank:

01 - H1
...
0200 - H8
0400 - E1
...
0100000 - E8

High bank:

01 - F1
...
0200 - F8
0400 - D1
...
0100000 - D8

D-H9 seem to be parity.

If anyone has one of these cards, and it's busted and they're not up to
dealing with it, let me know. Depending on the failure mode, I _may_ be
able to help (no documentation of any kind, after all...)

	Noel

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun Sep  6 09:32:35 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:32:35 +0200
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <20150905171014.3E83118C0D5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150905171014.3E83118C0D5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150906143234.GA32501@Update.UU.SE>

Well done! Thank you

On Sat, Sep 05, 2015 at 01:10:14PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > we now have the 11/73 prints, which I will be scanning Real Soon Now.
> 
> OK, done:
> 
>  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP01890_KDJ11-A_Jan84.pdf
> 
> Can the appropriate people please download this to all the right places
> (e.g. repositories)?
> 
> 
> Don't be misled by the svelte 1.5MB size; they were scanned at 600dpi, and
> there is a _ton_ of resolution in there (you can go way past the '100%'
> setting on Adobe Reader without getting pixellation).
> 
> The originals were in really rough shape (torn, written on, etc), but I think
> the results are fully legible. I looked quickly, and found a couple of issues,
> where there was writing which obscured things on the scans, and fixed the
> images manually to show what's on the original prints. However, I didn't have
> the energy to look at every detail of every page, so if something comes up
> un-readable, let me know, and I'll issue a fixed set.
> 
> (There are some places which aren't legible, e.g. lower right pins of E9 on
> K3, but the original prints aren't legible there either, so there's nothing I
> can do about that; it's possible to work out what the pin numbers are,
> though.)
> 
> 
> And a _HUGE_ 'Thank You' to Paul Anderson for lending me the print set so I
> could scan them for everyone!
> 
> 
>     > That does leave us needing the 11/83/84 CPU prints, so if anyone has a
>     > set...
> 
> Can I repeat my appeal for these? They are for the KDJ11-B (M8190). With this
> board being so recent, surely someone must have a set? I'd be happy to do the
> work of scanning them, if someone has originals but isn't up to the scanning
> part.
> 
> 	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Sep  6 09:48:37 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2015 07:48:37 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>

On 9/5/15 11:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone happen to have these floppies and/or images of them?
>

I have several moving boxes of 5" floppies I got from Envos when the left Redwood City
I'll see what's there. The display fonts should be common across all the D machine software
platforms.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Sep  6 09:55:28 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2015 07:55:28 -0700
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>

On 9/6/15 6:12 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> I have played a little with KA-10 and KI-10. And yes, there are similarities.
>

KA is built out of R/S/B series negative logic modules, which have single-sided edge connectors.

KI was built with TTL (M series postive logic) as was the PDP-8I/L/E, PDP-12, PDP-15, and PDP-11 and
have double-sided edge connectors with backplaces that have .025 wire-wrap posts.



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep  6 10:02:19 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 17:02:19 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se> <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55EC557B.1080202@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-06 16:55, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/6/15 6:12 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> I have played a little with KA-10 and KI-10. And yes, there are
>> similarities.
>>
>
> KA is built out of R/S/B series negative logic modules, which have
> single-sided edge connectors.
>
> KI was built with TTL (M series postive logic) as was the PDP-8I/L/E,
> PDP-12, PDP-15, and PDP-11 and
> have double-sided edge connectors with backplaces that have .025
> wire-wrap posts.

Yes.

There are so many aspects one can bring up. Some will show strong 
similarities, and others that make them look totally different.

My point here was simply that controllers sitting in their own cabinets, 
made out of lots of small flip chips can be seen both on KA-10, KI-10, 
PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems from the late 60s, early 70s. Rather similar in 
concept. Usually also with lots of blinkenlights to show various 
information about the controller. (You just gotta love the "MAGIC" lamp 
of the KI-10.)

(And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the PDP-15 were similar, but 
since I have never seen one of those myself, I can't comment on them.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 10:43:00 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 08:43:00 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com>

On 9/6/15 7:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/5/15 11:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Anyone happen to have these floppies and/or images of them?
>>
>
> I have several moving boxes of 5" floppies I got from Envos when the 
> left Redwood City
> I'll see what's there. The display fonts should be common across all 
> the D machine software
> platforms.
>
>
>
>

Thanks, let me know what you find.  I'll take a closer look at the 
Viewpoint images and see if maybe what I need is hidden there.  It 
doesn't appear that the font disks are labeled in the same way between 
VP and Interlisp-D (the 1186 docs make mention of things like "Place 
Display font Disk #13 in the drive..." while the VP disks do not appear 
to be labeled in that way).  I'm going to look at more the disks that 
don't have "300 DPI" in the label (since those are unlikely to be 
display fonts).

- Josh

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Sep  6 10:53:34 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 17:53:34 +0200
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
In-Reply-To: <20150906105953.262F018C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150906105953.262F018C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150906155334.GA9973@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     > Sorry, I couldn't find a mailing about Schematics for the KDJ11-AA,
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-September/011849.html
> 
>     > I've read that you got some documentation and want to scan it, 600dpi
>     > with some TIFF compression or so.. that's all.
> 
> Well, now I'm really confused, because AFAIK the message that talked about
> the 600dpi and TIFF is the same one that thas the URL for the FMPS. So I
> don't understand how you don't have them. Oh well.
> 
>     > No, I'm not reading every singe mailing from that list.


..no clue, maybe I had tomatoes on the eyes (german saying).
Anyway, thanks for the schematics, I have the board running again. The fix
was simple, the xtal was bad.
The was happily tickering around with an 18Mhz Xtal (found this one first in
the box) but I now have soldered in a 15.45 Mhz, no 15.206 handy..

Next to try this motorola memory board..
> 
> I don't either - there's often too much. But I do read everything that looks
> like it could be DEC-related, and most of the other stuff too (it's kind of
> fun to read about the really old machines, etc).
> 
> 	Noel

...that's somthing like that what I wrote as pm to tony today.
Love that restoration reports with pictures and so on.. but
such machines simply doesn't exist here. Here, that is the former east
germany (from behind the iron curtain) and the machines here where either
robotron (east german), russian, tzschech or hungarian. The bigger mostly
PDP11 compatibles (clones are other things!) or IBM compatible (ESER
Mainfraimes). There where old KRS4x00 Series that has a Honeywell
compatible Instruction set with Core Mem.

I think I posted the link in the past, but that is the CPU of an russian
11/03 or 11/23 w/o MMU, an Elektronika 60 with an RX02 alike that I have:

http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/CPU-oben.jpg

4KW purple russian 2107 on the left..

That's how the terminal looks:

http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/DSCF0065.JPG

The complete machine:
http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/DSCF0066.JPG
other casing:
http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/DSCF0067.JPG
(that bluish box has nothing todo with the computer)

..but I only have the Card Cage, the Floppy and the Terminal here.
Have the Tape too, but must made a cable first.


Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 11:06:25 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 11:06:25 -0500
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
In-Reply-To: <55EBA032.1030907@charter.net>
References: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EBA032.1030907@charter.net>
Message-ID: <470DE060-BA12-47D0-8F06-25F3FB9FED17@gmail.com>

I'd be curious, too. I was *this close* to throwing in a bid seeing as this turned up within driving distance...until I was politely reminded that I have a few other projects around here. The coffee can of 'spare parts' also gave me pause.  -C


On Sep 5, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> On 9/5/2015 7:10 PM, william degnan wrote:
>> Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  I must admit
>> time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one!  (I have
>> the manuals at least)
>> 
> 
> I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out one
> or two more. Ya never know.
> 
> JRJ
> 


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun Sep  6 12:30:07 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 13:30:07 -0400
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
Message-ID: <c820c.75add8fb.431dd21f@aol.com>

was it a  160  or a 160A?
 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/6/2015 9:13:38 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
coryheisterkamp at gmail.com writes:

I'd be  curious, too. I was *this close* to throwing in a bid seeing as 
this turned up  within driving distance...until I was politely reminded that I 
have a few  other projects around here. The coffee can of 'spare parts' also 
gave me  pause.  -C


On Sep 5, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Jay Jaeger  wrote:

> On 9/5/2015 7:10 PM, william degnan wrote:
>>  Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  I must  admit
>> time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this  one!  (I have
>> the manuals at least)
>> 
>  
> I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out  one
> or two more. Ya never know.
> 
> JRJ
>  


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Sep  6 12:59:41 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 10:59:41 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>



On 9/6/15 8:43 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> I'm going to look at more the disks that
> don't have "300 DPI" in the label (since those are unlikely to be
> display fonts).
>

right, those are 4045 laser printer fonts



From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com  Sun Sep  6 13:13:55 2015
From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 11:13:55 -0700
Subject: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
Message-ID: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>

I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or accurate replacement
switches for my MITS 8800b.

These are flattened paddle switches, both ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm actuator.  This last part is the
pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.

I've checked every online source that I know of plus all of the local
electronics and surplus shops with no luck.

I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows someone who does.  I need at
least one of each type but would prefer a few more as I do have a few
marginal switches to replace if I can.

I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if that's what it took.

Please email me at my webmaster@ "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can
help.

Thank you!


-- 
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
Marketplace

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep  6 13:23:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 11:23:10 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
In-Reply-To: <c820c.75add8fb.431dd21f@aol.com>
References: <c820c.75add8fb.431dd21f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <55EC848E.20301@sydex.com>

On 09/06/2015 10:30 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> was it a  160  or a 160A?

I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no 
return jump for you...

--Chuck


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Sep  6 13:27:58 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 20:27:58 +0200
Subject: Cheap board guy
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkkyx+as2MZYoZ=-AdReei6FhRqYe9RVzBXHVZbsx2e6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150821155452.CD49818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150821181333.GA9229@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CAALmimkkyx+as2MZYoZ=-AdReei6FhRqYe9RVzBXHVZbsx2e6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150906182758.GB9973@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Mark G. Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
> > I picked up a bunch of the boards too. My results have been mixed, but
> > for the price and description, I expected some wouldn't work.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> > 1x M8028 - DLV11-F SLU works.
> > 1x Plessey 32kW memory, works.
> > 2x M8186-YA - KDF11-AA, works.
> 
> Cool.
> 
> > 4x M8192 - KDJ11 (AA or AB?) -- two work, two fail POST, with LEDs lit.
> 
> That was my concern.  $50 is a fine price for a KDJ11, but not for a busted one.
> 
> Did you scope out the POST code yet?
> 
> > 4x MMS1132-N3-128 Motorola 128kW memory - undetermined if works.
> > 1x MMS1102-34 Motorola 32kW memory - undetermined if works.
> >
> > I haven't figured out the jumpers on the Motorola memory boards yet.
> > As provided, if I plug one in with the KDF11-AA, I fail to even get
> > an ODT prompt.
> 
> They might not be strapped for 0000000.  Since they are not DEC, it
> might take unearthing manuals or tracing out the circuit around the
> jumpers and the upper Qbus memory bits.

I do have an M8192 and the Motorola 128KW Memory Board from that guy.
The M8192 sometimes worked, sometimes not. After cooling with some
spray in the xtal area I've checked the clock at the xtal and that was
missing most time.
The J11 worked on a KDJ11-DS, so I changed the Xtal. Bingo, it's running fine
now.

For the Motorola MMS1132...the board uses +5VB from the AV1 Pin which is my
H278-A Backplane is not providing. I've soldered a bridge on the card
between AA2 and AV1 (using the vias there)  ..still not working and no ODT
prompt. Found out that on the jumper pins near the QBUS connector (E28) two
pairs are slightly bent, but no jumper on them.  Looked closer to jims pictures
(imsoldtoys.blogspot.de/2015/08/dec-boards-kdj11-2-kdf11-and-motorola.html)
and found that 2 jumpers on my board are missing. Put the jumpers on them
and now the board ist working  at 0 (tested only with the memory address
program from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html, after run
160000 in R1).
At the linked picture above the last jumper on E19 seems to be open, that's
closed on my board originally, but this makes no difference at all, the
board is working with both settings.

Hope this helps,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep  6 13:41:09 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 13:41:09 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
Message-ID: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>

Several people asked, here's the scoop:

The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K.

1K are used for either loader roms on the cpu board or microcode on the FAB
4K are used for microcode on the FAB or FEM
8K are used for microcode on the FEM

The manuals you'll want to print and keep handy:
HP 12992 Loader Roms Installation Manual, 12992-90001 (April '86)
HP 1000 M/E/F-series Firmware Installation and Reference Manual, 12791-90001
(September, '83)
I believe these are both on bitsavers. They are "must have" manuals.

These are all bipolar proms, and most modern prom programmers will not be
able to program them. I use a Data I/O 29B (with Unipak 2B), and it can
program all these parts. Those programmers appear on ebay from time to time
at around roughly $400.

The blank proms are not terribly easy to find these days. Ebay has them
occasionally, but your best bet is sites that cater to arcade machine
repair.

Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:

1K parts
MMI 6301
Harris 7611
Signetics N82S129
National 74S287
TI 24S10
AMD 27S21
Fujitsu 7114 (possibly 7052 as well, need to verify that)

4K parts
Signetics N82S141
Harris 7641
MMI 6341

8K parts
Signetics N82S181
Harris 7681
MMI 6381



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Sep  6 13:42:35 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:42:35 -0400
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdwtcuo14s-GLuza7ptm6pNnw4V=61__Ur59hDFMdUdwfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACCFpdwtcuo14s-GLuza7ptm6pNnw4V=61__Ur59hDFMdUdwfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D7B123F1-F4B8-4978-899C-56B66DB18FAD@comcast.net>


> On Sep 5, 2015, at 2:23 AM, Nigel Williams <nw at retroComputingTasmania.com> wrote:
> 
> We would be glad to hear from anyone who might have new material
> related to the Burroughs B6700.
> 
> We're on the hunt for any manuals or software related to the Burroughs
> large systems so we can build an emulator for the B6700. This search
> includes the B5000, B6000, B7000 families, since there is considerable
> overlap across these families and collateral from one system family
> can assist understanding another. Example models include B5500, B5700,
> B6500, B7500, B6700, B7700, B6800, and B7800.
> 
> We were amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the critical
> documentation (thanks Bitsavers!) and a complete suite of system
> software, but even though the B6700 was more recent and produced in
> larger numbers we're not having the same level of good fortune finding
> artifacts.

There's a B6800 hardware manual on Bitsavers.  It looks like there's one for the B6700 as well, for that matter.

	paul



From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 13:47:03 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 15:47:03 -0300
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
Em 06/09/2015 15:42, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> Several people asked, here's the scoop:
>
> The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K.
>
> 1K are used for either loader roms on the cpu board or microcode on the FAB
> 4K are used for microcode on the FAB or FEM
> 8K are used for microcode on the FEM
>
> The manuals you'll want to print and keep handy:
> HP 12992 Loader Roms Installation Manual, 12992-90001 (April '86)
> HP 1000 M/E/F-series Firmware Installation and Reference Manual,
> 12791-90001
> (September, '83)
> I believe these are both on bitsavers. They are "must have" manuals.
>
> These are all bipolar proms, and most modern prom programmers will not be
> able to program them. I use a Data I/O 29B (with Unipak 2B), and it can
> program all these parts. Those programmers appear on ebay from time to time
> at around roughly $400.
>
> The blank proms are not terribly easy to find these days. Ebay has them
> occasionally, but your best bet is sites that cater to arcade machine
> repair.
>
> Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:
>
> 1K parts
> MMI 6301
> Harris 7611
> Signetics N82S129
> National 74S287
> TI 24S10
> AMD 27S21
> Fujitsu 7114 (possibly 7052 as well, need to verify that)
>
> 4K parts
> Signetics N82S141
> Harris 7641
> MMI 6341
>
> 8K parts
> Signetics N82S181
> Harris 7681
> MMI 6381
>
>
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 13:51:29 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:51:29 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <55EC557B.1080202@update.uu.se>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se> <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC557B.1080202@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufWv80JBM-gF-S94tEnxaqV0hYdvzQyedLx7C=E2L53tQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have uploaded more photos of my TU10M (it's a master with the TM
backplane installed).  I also updated the design of the file listing pages
on my site to make it easier for people to find things.  One of the images
shows it has the RSX-11M tape loaded.

I have been cleaning the cables, having fun on a sunny afternoon.

http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/



On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-06 16:55, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/15 6:12 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> I have played a little with KA-10 and KI-10. And yes, there are
>>> similarities.
>>>
>>>
>> KA is built out of R/S/B series negative logic modules, which have
>> single-sided edge connectors.
>>
>> KI was built with TTL (M series postive logic) as was the PDP-8I/L/E,
>> PDP-12, PDP-15, and PDP-11 and
>> have double-sided edge connectors with backplaces that have .025
>> wire-wrap posts.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> There are so many aspects one can bring up. Some will show strong
> similarities, and others that make them look totally different.
>
> My point here was simply that controllers sitting in their own cabinets,
> made out of lots of small flip chips can be seen both on KA-10, KI-10,
> PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems from the late 60s, early 70s. Rather similar in
> concept. Usually also with lots of blinkenlights to show various
> information about the controller. (You just gotta love the "MAGIC" lamp of
> the KI-10.)
>
> (And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the PDP-15 were similar, but
> since I have never seen one of those myself, I can't comment on them.)
>
>         Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 14:00:03 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 12:00:03 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL=0MONfU8FCXFpk3uWMCuBwyxU+rNtHvHn5PEcfNSCFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Several people asked, here's the scoop:
>
> The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K.
>
> 1K are used for either loader roms on the cpu board or microcode on the FAB
> 4K are used for microcode on the FAB or FEM
> 8K are used for microcode on the FEM
>

The loader PROMs are 256x4 while the firmware PROMs are either 512x8
or 1024x8. The firmware has some interesting code to unpack the 256x4
loader PROMs into 64x16 format in memory, and patch in the I/O select
code while it is doing it.

I programmed at least one loader PROM using a BP Micro programmer. I
forget exactly which PROM part I used. I probably have a very small
number of blank PROMs left. I forget what loader PROM I swapped out
and which one I swapped in. Sometime I'll have to fire up the system
and dump the loaders PROMs into memory and check which ones I
currently have installed, and make some notes so I don't have to
wonder again later.

-Glen

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep  6 14:00:58 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:00:58 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>

Alexander wrote...
-----
Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
-----

Loader roms:
You may be able to get by with that on loader roms. I've never found eproms that were functional & pin compatible. What ones did you use for the 1K variety?

Microcode:
I doubt seriously the eproms would be stable for microcode. HP specs 5ns speed parts for the microcode; what eproms work and can hit those speeds? I suspect this is one of those "might seem to work" but is a really bad idea.

J



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep  6 14:04:30 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:04:30 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwL=0MONfU8FCXFpk3uWMCuBwyxU+rNtHvHn5PEcfNSCFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM2UOwL=0MONfU8FCXFpk3uWMCuBwyxU+rNtHvHn5PEcfNSCFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d0e8d6$dc8e19d0$95aa4d70$@classiccmp.org>

Glen wrote....

----
The loader PROMs are 256x4 while the firmware PROMs are either 512x8 or 1024x8. The firmware has some interesting code to unpack the 256x4 loader PROMs into 64x16 format in memory, and patch in the I/O select code while it is doing it.
----
The same 1K parts are used interchangeably for loader roms or microcode on the FAB. They are the same chip regardless of if they contain loader code or microcode.

J



From wayne.smith at charter.net  Sun Sep  6 14:13:43 2015
From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 12:13:43 -0700
Subject: Collection Reduction - Free for pickup
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1441472400.82518.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1441472400.82518.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <010301d0e8d8$2600a1e0$7201e5a0$@smith@charter.net>

As a result of remodeling my house, I now have less space for the
collection and need to thin it out a bit.  The following items are
free for pick-up in the Los Angeles area.  Priority will be given to
the first person who will take everything.  Almost all of these are
"portables" so it isn't that much volume.  Some work; some don't and
are projects.  The Seequa (dual DOS-CP/M unit) and Access Matrix
"Actrix" could be very cool pieces if brought into working condition. 

1.	Seequa Chameleon Plus:  Powers up; no video - otherwise in
nice condition
2.	Corona ATP:  Works, boots off floppy to MS-DOS 2.11 disc
(included) - nice condition
3.	Sanyo MBC-775:  Powers up, no video; though external RCA video
works - shows boot error in ROM - nice condition
4.	Sanyo MBC-675:  Works - missing one floppy drive - boots off
floppy (not included) to MS-DOS 2.11, broken foot - rough condition
5.	Access Matrix - Actrix: Powers up, video good, floppy drive B:
cycles and won't boot (comes with case, manual and software)
6.	Sony SMC-70G Genlocker:  Works (tested RCA out), asks for
system disk
7.	NEC PowerMate Portable SX:  powers up, no video, possible HDD
crash based on screeching noise
8.	Kaypro II:  Lights flash on floppy drives, no video, constant
beeping noise in sync with flashing floppy drive lights
9.	Kaypro 2X:  Works - boots to screen asking for disk (seem to
recall that one of the floppy drives may need realignment)

Please PM me if you are interested.



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  6 14:17:22 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 21:17:22 +0200
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufWv80JBM-gF-S94tEnxaqV0hYdvzQyedLx7C=E2L53tQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se> <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC557B.1080202@update.uu.se>
 <CABGJBufWv80JBM-gF-S94tEnxaqV0hYdvzQyedLx7C=E2L53tQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS41BC88DA716346E626963686550@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: william degnan 
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 8:51 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Tu10 pdp11 

I have uploaded more photos of my TU10M (it's a master with the TM
backplane installed).  I also updated the design of the file listing pages
on my site to make it easier for people to find things.  One of the images
shows it has the RSX-11M tape loaded.

I have been cleaning the cables, having fun on a sunny afternoon.

http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/

======
Nice job!
I saw the filthy cables. Lots of greasy crumbled foam and dust.
Takes some time to get them cleaned, but the cleaned ones
look like new. The parts in the rack have lots of dust and
what is worrying me more, corrosion. Also on IC pins ...
It will be a long journey to get this tape drive working, but it
will be a very rewarding one.

I have to go to my "museum" to have a look what I have in
the rack with the TU10 ... I cannot remember either backplane
with FlipChip modules :-(

- Henk

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 15:03:15 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:03:15 -0400
Subject: Tu10 pdp11
In-Reply-To: <DUB112-DS41BC88DA716346E626963686550@phx.gbl>
References: <20150906123850.7FF0718C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EC3BAA.8030108@update.uu.se> <55EC53E0.7090400@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC557B.1080202@update.uu.se>
 <CABGJBufWv80JBM-gF-S94tEnxaqV0hYdvzQyedLx7C=E2L53tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB112-DS41BC88DA716346E626963686550@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucNgWsL7fefrShMcyq2=hasDi9bHdqPatC7qRcGkNdrvw@mail.gmail.com>

Next big step is to get the rack into the basement, not an easy feat.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Sunday,
> September 06, 2015 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts Subject: Re: Tu10 pdp11
> I have uploaded more photos of my TU10M (it's a master with the TM
> backplane installed).  I also updated the design of the file listing pages
> on my site to make it easier for people to find things.  One of the images
> shows it has the RSX-11M tape loaded.
>
> I have been cleaning the cables, having fun on a sunny afternoon.
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/TU10/
>
> ======
> Nice job!
> I saw the filthy cables. Lots of greasy crumbled foam and dust.
> Takes some time to get them cleaned, but the cleaned ones
> look like new. The parts in the rack have lots of dust and
> what is worrying me more, corrosion. Also on IC pins ...
> It will be a long journey to get this tape drive working, but it
> will be a very rewarding one.
>
> I have to go to my "museum" to have a look what I have in
> the rack with the TU10 ... I cannot remember either backplane
> with FlipChip modules :-(
>
> - Henk
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 15:21:54 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 15:21:54 -0500
Subject: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
In-Reply-To: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4U9F0r_LsW2HJzjO3=NecvwqyhFFjMc7FrB_NqQhXFrw@mail.gmail.com>

Since Erik brought it up..

I could also use a couple switches, but in my case they are for an 8800A
model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was upgraded to the 'B' power
supply, but it still has the original 'A' type D/C board).

Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom mini-toggles, with panel mount
bushing, and the long solder terminals that solder directly to the PCB (not
the small eyelet type). But the handles are the standard mini-toggle bat
handle - not the flatted paddles Erik describes.

Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. Thanks!

-Bill

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
wrote:

> I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or accurate replacement
> switches for my MITS 8800b.
>
> These are flattened paddle switches, both ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
> SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm actuator.  This last part is the
> pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.
>
> I've checked every online source that I know of plus all of the local
> electronics and surplus shops with no luck.
>
> I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows someone who does.  I need at
> least one of each type but would prefer a few more as I do have a few
> marginal switches to replace if I can.
>
> I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if that's what it took.
>
> Please email me at my webmaster@ "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can
> help.
>
> Thank you!
>
>
> --
> Erik Klein
> www.vintage-computer.com
> www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
> marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
> Marketplace
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 15:51:10 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:51:10 -0400
Subject: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4U9F0r_LsW2HJzjO3=NecvwqyhFFjMc7FrB_NqQhXFrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4U9F0r_LsW2HJzjO3=NecvwqyhFFjMc7FrB_NqQhXFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue5BpO7-j=ZovN=y6QC8hqbqY1wHL9HF78GhpDma1_X+w@mail.gmail.com>

I thought Banesville electronics in Baltimore had the switches.    They're
on Joppa Rd.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:21 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> Since Erik brought it up..
>
> I could also use a couple switches, but in my case they are for an 8800A
> model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was upgraded to the 'B' power
> supply, but it still has the original 'A' type D/C board).
>
> Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom mini-toggles, with panel mount
> bushing, and the long solder terminals that solder directly to the PCB (not
> the small eyelet type). But the handles are the standard mini-toggle bat
> handle - not the flatted paddles Erik describes.
>
> Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. Thanks!
>
> -Bill
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein <
> classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or accurate replacement
> > switches for my MITS 8800b.
> >
> > These are flattened paddle switches, both ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
> > SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm actuator.  This last part is
> the
> > pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.
> >
> > I've checked every online source that I know of plus all of the local
> > electronics and surplus shops with no luck.
> >
> > I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows someone who does.  I need at
> > least one of each type but would prefer a few more as I do have a few
> > marginal switches to replace if I can.
> >
> > I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if that's what it took.
> >
> > Please email me at my webmaster@ "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you
> can
> > help.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Erik Klein
> > www.vintage-computer.com
> > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
> > marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
> > Marketplace
> >
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sun Sep  6 15:53:58 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:53:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1509061651000.18491@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, Jay West wrote:

> Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:
>
> 4K parts
> Signetics N82S141
> Harris 7641
> MMI 6341

    You can add National 74S474 to this group.  I've tried it, and they 
work.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 16:00:00 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 18:00:00 -0300
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>

Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
it work :D

2015-09-06 16:00 GMT-03:00 Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:

> Alexander wrote...
> -----
> Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
> Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
> -----
>
> Loader roms:
> You may be able to get by with that on loader roms. I've never found
> eproms that were functional & pin compatible. What ones did you use for the
> 1K variety?
>
> Microcode:
> I doubt seriously the eproms would be stable for microcode. HP specs 5ns
> speed parts for the microcode; what eproms work and can hit those speeds? I
> suspect this is one of those "might seem to work" but is a really bad idea.
>
> J
>
>
>

From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com  Sun Sep  6 16:17:13 2015
From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:17:13 -0700
Subject: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBue5BpO7-j=ZovN=y6QC8hqbqY1wHL9HF78GhpDma1_X+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4U9F0r_LsW2HJzjO3=NecvwqyhFFjMc7FrB_NqQhXFrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBue5BpO7-j=ZovN=y6QC8hqbqY1wHL9HF78GhpDma1_X+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOj1otJ9BsGYfONahx7RfsvkGafEY1k-G9rJLAmeVGOqvPqcZg@mail.gmail.com>

Bill Degnan Wrote:

>>I thought Banesville electronics in Baltimore had the switches.
They're on Joppa Rd.

I'll have to call on Tuesday to see.  I'm on the other coast, but it's
certainly worth a shot.

If anyone has any in their hands to sell, I'm still looking! :)

Thanks!

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:51 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought Banesville electronics in Baltimore had the switches.    They're
> on Joppa Rd.
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:21 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Since Erik brought it up..
> >
> > I could also use a couple switches, but in my case they are for an 8800A
> > model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was upgraded to the 'B' power
> > supply, but it still has the original 'A' type D/C board).
> >
> > Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom mini-toggles, with panel mount
> > bushing, and the long solder terminals that solder directly to the PCB
> (not
> > the small eyelet type). But the handles are the standard mini-toggle bat
> > handle - not the flatted paddles Erik describes.
> >
> > Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. Thanks!
> >
> > -Bill
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein <
> > classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or accurate replacement
> > > switches for my MITS 8800b.
> > >
> > > These are flattened paddle switches, both ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
> > > SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm actuator.  This last part is
> > the
> > > pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.
> > >
> > > I've checked every online source that I know of plus all of the local
> > > electronics and surplus shops with no luck.
> > >
> > > I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows someone who does.  I need at
> > > least one of each type but would prefer a few more as I do have a few
> > > marginal switches to replace if I can.
> > >
> > > I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if that's what it took.
> > >
> > > Please email me at my webmaster@ "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you
> > can
> > > help.
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Erik Klein
> > > www.vintage-computer.com
> > > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
> > > marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
> > > Marketplace
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Bill
> vintagecomputer.net
>



-- 
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
Marketplace

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 16:18:34 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:18:34 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com> <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com>

On 9/6/15 10:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>
> On 9/6/15 8:43 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> I'm going to look at more the disks that
>> don't have "300 DPI" in the label (since those are unlikely to be
>> display fonts).
>>
>
> right, those are 4045 laser printer fonts
>
>
>

Wrote out a couple of disks that looked promising (labeled "VP Helvetica 
Fonts" and "VP Xerox Classic Fonts") and while it's possible that the 
disks contain the right fonts for the 1186, they seem to be packaged 
differently than Interlisp wants.

The 1186 docs refer to fonts on the floppy as being present in separate 
files (one file per font, at different sizes & whatnot, apparently); the 
VP font disks seem to have all fonts packaged into a single file (for 
example "VP Helvetica Fonts" is the name of the single file on the 
floppy of the same name.  I'll have to do some digging to see if this is 
a container format that Interlisp can crack.

Lots of other disks to look through but it's a pain to get them written 
out; one of those HxC floppy drive emulators is looking rather nice 
right now :).

- Josh


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 18:38:01 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:38:01 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1441386000.34618.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1441386000.34618.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <9F222F9EF68248F7B048C9AFDE6D661D@workshop>

Jay, Mike, John,
Thanks for the helpful information. It just dawned onto me that these were
"write once" PROMs, not modern EEPROMs. Duh. So you get one shot at doing it
right...
The Data I/Os on ebay seem to be quite a bit more than $100 right now, I'll
keep looking. I guess none of the modern ebay Chinese ones would do? Also
where can you get the blanks? Any modern equivalents here too?
Marc

-------------------------
Jay West wrote:
The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms.

John Robertson wrote:
One can pick up a Data I/O 29B and Unipak II off eBay starting around 
$100USD (ish). There is a very good support group on yahoo groups:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM

Mike Loewen wrote:
I used a Data I/O 29B programmer to burn the PROMs, with a Unipak 2B. 
The blank PROMs were variously Signetics N82S141, MMI 6341-1 and National 
74S474. Along with the 12821A HP-IB board, you also need a Boot Loader 
PROM, 12992H (12992-80004). The boot loader PROM is a Signetics N82S129 or 
equivalent. For installation information about the firmware PROMs, see 
manual 12791-90001 (HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Firmware Installation and 
Reference Manual). For boot loader information, see manual 12792-90001 (HP 
12992 Loader ROMs Installation Manual).
------------------------


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Sep  6 18:45:46 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 16:45:46 -0700
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
In-Reply-To: <D7B123F1-F4B8-4978-899C-56B66DB18FAD@comcast.net>
References: <CACCFpdwtcuo14s-GLuza7ptm6pNnw4V=61__Ur59hDFMdUdwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D7B123F1-F4B8-4978-899C-56B66DB18FAD@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55ECD02A.6020307@bitsavers.org>




>> On Sep 5, 2015, at 2:23 AM, Nigel Williams <nw at retroComputingTasmania.com> wrote:

>> We were amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the critical
>> documentation (thanks Bitsavers!)

Thank Jim Haynes for saving these from UC-Santa Cruz's machines and 
donating them to CHM in 1998.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 19:22:13 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 18:22:13 -0600
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <9F222F9EF68248F7B048C9AFDE6D661D@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1441386000.34618.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <9F222F9EF68248F7B048C9AFDE6D661D@workshop>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQF1wov4hoFr_LDVUUXbeb8zRpjW1PJh6SE0Mi+P7eBXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com> wrote:
> It just dawned onto me that these were "write once" PROMs,
[...]
> I guess none of the modern ebay Chinese ones would do?

I'd suspect not, since bipolar PROMs are long obsolte.

> where can you get the blanks?

The usual surplus IC sources.

> Any modern equivalents here too?

The only ones still being made are military, for really big bucks.

From wulfman at wulfman.com  Sun Sep  6 19:29:15 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 17:29:15 -0700
Subject: Reading ROMs
In-Reply-To: <9F222F9EF68248F7B048C9AFDE6D661D@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1441386000.34618.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <9F222F9EF68248F7B048C9AFDE6D661D@workshop>
Message-ID: <55ECDA5B.9050000@wulfman.com>



They do not make bipolar proms any more.
you can find them on ebay sometimes
some functions can be emulated by fast pals.
but not code storage.
Old arcade games use them for all sorts of things.
some old arcade game repair sites also sell the ICs

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=82S129&_sacat=0


On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> Jay, Mike, John,
> Thanks for the helpful information. It just dawned onto me that these were
> "write once" PROMs, not modern EEPROMs. Duh. So you get one shot at doing it
> right...
> The Data I/Os on ebay seem to be quite a bit more than $100 right now, I'll
> keep looking. I guess none of the modern ebay Chinese ones would do? Also
> where can you get the blanks? Any modern equivalents here too?
> Marc
>
> -------------------------
> Jay West wrote:
> The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms.
>
> John Robertson wrote:
> One can pick up a Data I/O 29B and Unipak II off eBay starting around 
> $100USD (ish). There is a very good support group on yahoo groups:
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM
>
> Mike Loewen wrote:
> I used a Data I/O 29B programmer to burn the PROMs, with a Unipak 2B. 
> The blank PROMs were variously Signetics N82S141, MMI 6341-1 and National 
> 74S474. Along with the 12821A HP-IB board, you also need a Boot Loader 
> PROM, 12992H (12992-80004). The boot loader PROM is a Signetics N82S129 or 
> equivalent. For installation information about the firmware PROMs, see 
> manual 12791-90001 (HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Firmware Installation and 
> Reference Manual). For boot loader information, see manual 12792-90001 (HP 
> 12992 Loader ROMs Installation Manual).
> ------------------------
>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
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From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep  6 20:21:48 2015
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2015 21:21:48 -0400
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
References: <20150902182202.GB18529@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de> <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se>
 <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55ECE6AC.5020102@sbcglobal.net>

     How about all of you shut the hell up, drop this, and talk 
computers, okay?

On 09/05/2015 06:10 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Holm. You may call it whatever you want.
>
> I found your comments insulting. And following your advice I'll not 
> ignore you. Have fun.
>
>     Johnny
>
> On 2015-09-05 09:00, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He Johnny, clam down.
>>>>
>>>> There was _NO_ Answer at all.
>>>
>>> Yes. And what is your problem with that? Noone answered, so live 
>>> with it.
>>>
>>>> Did you mean that it is better for me that people that doesn't
>>>> answer me additionaly can't read my messages?
>>>> Does this make any difference?
>>>
>>> What the hell? There is no indication that people can't read your
>>> messages. You have gotten plenty of answers in the past. In addition,
>>> you can yourself also see that your messages reached the list.
>>> If you do not get an answer, it is because people either do not have an
>>> answer, or else do not want to answer.
>>>
>>> Trying to offend them by being sarcastic will most likely not get you
>>> any more answers. However, it do show, to others reading, that you are
>>> pretty much expecting and demanding that people respond to your posts.
>>> Which is a rather child-like behavior. We are not here to satisfy your
>>> needs.
>>
>> Johnny, If you think we should fight over the same thing every time,
>> please continue. This is exactly the same topic as in the port-vax list
>> 2 or 3 years before. Otherwise (using your words): live with it.
>>
>>>
>>>> Im 52 years old (as you know) and already had my first heart attac 
>>>> last
>>>> year so don't tell me that I sould behave more adult.
>>>> Possibly I don't have so much time left that I can wait any time.
>>>
>>> Who knows how much time they have left. Does that make it ok to offend
>>> anyone else who is not responding to your every demand?
>>> I think not. You are free to disagree, but in that case I will
>>> definitely ignore you.
>>
>> What I have done?
>> I was sarcastic, that was all.
>> There where no insulting words in my mail.
>>
>> What I have reached with that?
>> Besides of your opinion about my childishness, there where other answers
>> that where at least interresting. (Thanks to Dave and Richard at this 
>> point,
>> I've subscribed comp.os.vms in the meantime but think I meet the same
>> people there)
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Let me live the rest of my time like a child playing with old 
>>>> computers,
>>>> that's exactly why we are here; nothing else matters.
>>>>
>>>> I know that people trying to help, trust me, I'm doing that in other,
>>>> cases with other people too and there are other people that pissing me
>>>> off. But: I don't have a killfile.
>>>
>>> I do have a killfile. If people start offending me, or being generally
>>> obnoxious, I am obviously not going to change them, nor do I care 
>>> enough
>>> to actually waste my time doing that. My time is precious enough to me
>>> as it is.
>>> So the obvious solution is to just ignore them from that point on. They
>>> can go on ranting about how unfair people are to them, and I do not 
>>> have
>>> to read it.
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>>
>>> -- 
>>
>>
>> "When people start offending me.." ... read was I wrote and read again
>> what you wrote.
>>
>> "I am obviously not going to change them" .. but this is exactly what 
>> you
>> trying to do here.
>>
>> Sorry for being "obnoxious":
>> My Answer to your answer in this thread was "Yes", accepting what our
>> wrote to me, now the thing was done for me.  I knew why I only wrote 
>> that.
>>
>> So from my point of view you don't wanted the discussion to be 
>> completed,
>> so that seems to be your hobby. You are looking a little bit like an
>> choleric from here, may be I'm the only one that feels like this.
>> Besides of that I know that you are an clever fellow and you trying to
>> help if you can. So if that aren't your shoes, why the heck your trying
>> to wear them?
>>
>> About the killfile:
>>
>> I think I'm a "strong enough personality" so I don't think the computer
>> should decide for me if I should read something or not. On the other 
>> side
>> I'm trying to help people if I can, even if the pissed on my shoes in 
>> the
>> past and sometimes enemies are turning into friends over time. No, don't
>> need no killfile on my side. Don't get me wrong, that's no technical
>> problem this time, we all get tons of spam mails and most of us have
>> mechanisms to prevent spam from appearing in the inbox. I'm a small 
>> hosting
>> company of my own and the usual mechanisms for that are installed an 
>> working,
>> no problem to add folks there but I prefer deciding myself.
>>
>>
>> Back to the topic:
>>
>> I think it where much more helpful to answer things like "Sorry don't 
>> know,
>> never had todo with that", vs.  simply saying nothing at all, leaving
>> the man that looks for help alone. Maybe that's only my point of view,
>> maybe not.
>>
>>
>> about my intention: When I ask for help or opinions, I need that help
>> or opinion, since I can't find a way tho clear the problem on my own.
>> So Dave Wade isn't totally wrong with that what he thinks about my post.
>> Maybe not "a cry of desperation" maybe more "helllo...is there anyone
>> out there..?"
>>
>> ..
>> Now, after that many text about "Role of Meaning" is it just me that
>> thinks that the time where better to be used for clearing technical
>> problems?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Holm
>>
>
>


-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sun Sep  6 20:56:45 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 20:56:45 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?
Message-ID: <6294A1D3E68A49549F9F78C27474A33D@CharlesHPLaptop>

Johnny, I appreciate the thought, but there are over 1500 pins on this board 
and soldering them all would be a major undertaking in itself... I don't 
have a wave soldering machine ;)

The first error flagged today is on D1 CA 3, the Command Register A bit 3. 
Scope loops definitely identify this bus as trouble and it's part of the 
disk address register too.
The command register is two 'LS174 hex D-flops, and it drives the input of a 
'165 shift register (disk address) and the input of an 8234 (2-1 
multiplexer/driver) back onto the data bus, and that's it. Should be 
simple... ha!

The voltage on that output pin will go up and down as set by the loop until 
the board is flexed - then it will wander up to around 1-2 volts (measured 
at the pin with a DIP clip).
However, I measured its ability to drive a 510 ohm load to 3.5 volts, and 
sink at least 10 ma (measured directly) staying below 0.8 volts. And the 
inputs to those two gates can be pulled to 0 with only a fraction of a 
milliamp, and go high when the driving D-flop is disconnected! I couldn't 
reproduce the problem while flexing the board either, but then I'd need 
three or four hands.

So I changed the LS174 anyway. No luck - the card passes diagnostics until 
the board is flexed. All three of those chips are in the same general area 
of the board, too.

Close inspection of the driven '165 shows a lot of black oxidation on its 
pins... don't those tend to grow crud inside the package and cause problems 
too?

But... read on ;)

After perusing the schematic several more times this evening, I found one 
more place I'd overlooked where D1 CA 3 (the "flaky" line) connects... to an 
AND gate E96 in the center of the card, that has a solderable jumper for 
RL01/02. I had moved that jumper to RL01 for testing by another member (as 
that is the drive he has), and back to RL02 when I got the card back from 
him.

Lo and behold, underneath that piece of wire was a tiny solder whisker, at 
the moment shorting the CA 3 line to (something else?) but it was definitely 
continuity to another trace.
Don't know how long that whisker might have been there, quite possibly from 
before I changed it for the test!

Anyway I cleared it, and I've flexed the board numerous times while running 
AJRLAC controller diagnostic, and made 8 passes without an error. So far so 
good.

So I connected the drives, booted up SerialDisk and can read their 
directories (only C & D, but that's a PIP version problem that I corrected 
on my RL02 image).

Drives seem to be working :) ... of course R20A: (the SYS directory) is 
clobbered, so I'll have to remake the pack with my known-good image, but I 
was able to format the pack in Drive 1 without errors. Even wiggling the 
board several times. Now I'm running read/write tests (AJRLIA.DG) on Drive 
1. No errors so far after two ten-minute passes :)

THIS time maybe I really got it... CA 3 is the 4th bit of course where all 
the problems were occurring. Will let it run for a while longer.

David Gesswein just sent me a version of dumprest for RL that he's just 
written, modified for my Omni-USB port at 40/41.
If that works I'll be able to upload an entire RL02 in about 2 minutes 
instead of 3 hours with vtserver...

-Charles 


From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Sun Sep  6 21:44:34 2015
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 12:44:34 +1000
Subject: seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software
In-Reply-To: <55ECD02A.6020307@bitsavers.org>
References: <CACCFpdwtcuo14s-GLuza7ptm6pNnw4V=61__Ur59hDFMdUdwfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D7B123F1-F4B8-4978-899C-56B66DB18FAD@comcast.net>
 <55ECD02A.6020307@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdwUashz5SgtYC6t1FCkCt9RHq5MuuCEwdLLcxYEnOSTzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> Thank Jim Haynes for saving these from UC-Santa Cruz's machines and donating
> them to CHM in 1998.

Most definitely, thanks to Jim Haynes for the foresight and energy to
grab them when he could. Jim has been involved in the early
discussions about the B5500 emulator back in 2011, he is one of the
many that encouraged us to do the emulator.

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Sep  6 21:54:59 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 21:54:59 -0500
Subject: Control Data ad: Omega 480 "370 compatible alternative" on eBay
Message-ID: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-197X-RARE-CONTROL-DATA-AD-OMEGA-480-370-COMPATIBLE-ALTERNATIVE-Q-/271967493965?hash=item3f52869f4d

Not that I'm going to bid on it, but ... I had never heard of this
CDC product before.  Does anyone have any idea if this was a real
product, or just a way to poke IBM in the eye, or what?

mcl

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep  6 23:36:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 21:36:05 -0700
Subject: Control Data ad: Omega 480 "370 compatible alternative" on eBay
In-Reply-To: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com>
References: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <55ED1435.1010504@sydex.com>

On 09/06/2015 07:54 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-197X-RARE-CONTROL-DATA-AD-OMEGA-480-370-COMPATIBLE-ALTERNATIVE-Q-/271967493965?hash=item3f52869f4d
>
>  Not that I'm going to bid on it, but ... I had never heard of this
> CDC product before.  Does anyone have any idea if this was a real
> product, or just a way to poke IBM in the eye, or what?

It's not a CDC product--it was made by IPL Systems, Inc. and marketed by 
CDC and supplied with CDC peripherals.  I don't know if the agreement 
yielded much in sales; by 1981, IPL was selling to end users under its 
own brand.

Olivetti also sold IPL iron.

Yet another of several IBM mainframe clone makers.

--Chuck


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 23:41:57 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 00:41:57 -0400
Subject: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
References: <CAOj1ot+7uvXMHxmTLsN6QSxkON_5+awQ5Fem_rmVRr_Gr5gASA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd4U9F0r_LsW2HJzjO3=NecvwqyhFFjMc7FrB_NqQhXFrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7E5676DFA674A1AAA215C6D9366C4F0@310e2>

Anything here you like?

Might have to hunt for a distributor/retailer 
though.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed


> Since Erik brought it up..
>
> I could also use a couple switches, but in my 
> case they are for an 8800A
> model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was 
> upgraded to the 'B' power
> supply, but it still has the original 'A' type 
> D/C board).
>
> Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom 
> mini-toggles, with panel mount
> bushing, and the long solder terminals that 
> solder directly to the PCB (not
> the small eyelet type). But the handles are the 
> standard mini-toggle bat
> handle - not the flatted paddles Erik describes.
>
> Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. 
> Thanks!
>
> -Bill
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein 
> <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or 
>> accurate replacement
>> switches for my MITS 8800b.
>>
>> These are flattened paddle switches, both 
>> ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
>> SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm 
>> actuator.  This last part is the
>> pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.
>>
>> I've checked every online source that I know of 
>> plus all of the local
>> electronics and surplus shops with no luck.
>>
>> I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows 
>> someone who does.  I need at
>> least one of each type but would prefer a few 
>> more as I do have a few
>> marginal switches to replace if I can.
>>
>> I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if 
>> that's what it took.
>>
>> Please email me at my webmaster@ 
>> "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can
>> help.
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Erik Klein
>> www.vintage-computer.com
>> www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage 
>> Computer Forums
>> marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage 
>> Computer and Gaming
>> Marketplace
>> 


From axelsson at acc.umu.se  Sun Sep  6 15:59:06 2015
From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?UTF-8?Q?G=c3=b6ran_Axelsson?=)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 22:59:06 +0200
Subject: Data General 6050 Cartridge Disk Drive, got 6060 documents
In-Reply-To: <COL131-W722FCECD8867A31BC329BCF9690@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.3.1441126800.65060.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <COL131-W722FCECD8867A31BC329BCF9690@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55ECA91A.2080800@acc.umu.se>

I got a thick manual full of schematics and procedures for Data General 
6060 series cartridge disks, don't know if it could be of some help.

G?ran

Den 2015-09-02 kl. 16:21, skrev b coleman:
> I know this is a pretty long shot, but does anyone happen to have any service or maintenance manuals on the DG 6050 disk drive that have a procedure for adjusting the servo control circuit board? Or does anyone know anything about doing this? Thanks
>   		 	   		


From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun Sep  6 21:39:07 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:39:07 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E1ZYmKq-0006uc-Lq@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 13:41, Jay West wrote:

> Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:
> 
> [...]
> 
> 4K parts
> Signetics N82S141
> Harris 7641
> MMI 6341

Some additional part numbers:

 - AMD Am27S31
 - National DM87S474


> 8K parts
> Signetics N82S181
> Harris 7681
> MMI 6381

Also:

 - AMD Am27S181
 - National DM87S181

                                      -- Dave


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 23:43:53 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 00:43:53 -0400
Subject: Fw: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
Message-ID: <3FA6D28704834194880B468504F065E0@310e2>

Oops:

http://www.dailywell.com.tw/uploadpic/file/20130914143655f.pdf

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed


> Anything here you like?
>
> Might have to hunt for a distributor/retailer 
> though.
>
> m
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
> Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed
>
>
>> Since Erik brought it up..
>>
>> I could also use a couple switches, but in my 
>> case they are for an 8800A
>> model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was 
>> upgraded to the 'B' power
>> supply, but it still has the original 'A' type 
>> D/C board).
>>
>> Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom 
>> mini-toggles, with panel mount
>> bushing, and the long solder terminals that 
>> solder directly to the PCB (not
>> the small eyelet type). But the handles are the 
>> standard mini-toggle bat
>> handle - not the flatted paddles Erik 
>> describes.
>>
>> Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. 
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein 
>> <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or 
>>> accurate replacement
>>> switches for my MITS 8800b.
>>>
>>> These are flattened paddle switches, both 
>>> ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type.
>>> SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm 
>>> actuator.  This last part is the
>>> pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less.
>>>
>>> I've checked every online source that I know 
>>> of plus all of the local
>>> electronics and surplus shops with no luck.
>>>
>>> I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows 
>>> someone who does.  I need at
>>> least one of each type but would prefer a few 
>>> more as I do have a few
>>> marginal switches to replace if I can.
>>>
>>> I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if 
>>> that's what it took.
>>>
>>> Please email me at my webmaster@ 
>>> "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can
>>> help.
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Erik Klein
>>> www.vintage-computer.com
>>> www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage 
>>> Computer Forums
>>> marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage 
>>> Computer and Gaming
>>> Marketplace
>>>
> 


From wheagy at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 21:16:03 2015
From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 22:16:03 -0400
Subject: What kind of keyboard is this?
Message-ID: <CAAB_y5xhvPTqb=b8y=jL=G3LXoSVoCDa=7qmb=Lxxfux-xcS-g@mail.gmail.com>

I picked this up at Radio Shack about 25-30 years ago and have been
hauling it around ever since.

http://imgur.com/oNEcRFv,VacFqrY#0
(There should be two images...a link to the second.)

It was a surplus thing that RS was selling on the parts wall and I
grabbed on the off chance I'd need it someday.  I lost the cardboard
top to the plastic bag it came in, so I know nothing about it.

Anyone have any idea?

Thanks...Win

From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 01:15:53 2015
From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 02:15:53 -0400
Subject: What kind of keyboard is this?
In-Reply-To: <CAAB_y5xhvPTqb=b8y=jL=G3LXoSVoCDa=7qmb=Lxxfux-xcS-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAB_y5xhvPTqb=b8y=jL=G3LXoSVoCDa=7qmb=Lxxfux-xcS-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+QsEGFTqhnvnbHOeeew2auF3BH2_CWKZL415Tp=H8BbiRm9RQ@mail.gmail.com>

Coleco Adam.

-Ian

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Win Heagy <wheagy at gmail.com> wrote:
> I picked this up at Radio Shack about 25-30 years ago and have been
> hauling it around ever since.
>
> http://imgur.com/oNEcRFv,VacFqrY#0
> (There should be two images...a link to the second.)
>
> It was a surplus thing that RS was selling on the parts wall and I
> grabbed on the off chance I'd need it someday.  I lost the cardboard
> top to the plastic bag it came in, so I know nothing about it.
>
> Anyone have any idea?
>
> Thanks...Win

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep  7 01:19:54 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:19:54 +0200
Subject: Problem with RF73 DSSI disk
In-Reply-To: <55ECE6AC.5020102@sbcglobal.net>
References: <20150904060116.GB47127@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55E9CC44.1060907@update.uu.se> <BFBB601E2CF74D9A9978784D15067533@310e2>
 <20150904183121.GB32746@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA0E24.7080809@update.uu.se>
 <20150904223149.GA47419@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EA1E19.6090104@update.uu.se>
 <20150905070017.GA73707@beast.freibergnet.de> <55EABF8D.1080905@update.uu.se>
 <55ECE6AC.5020102@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20150907061954.GB71353@beast.freibergnet.de>

Dave Woyciesjes wrote:

>     How about all of you shut the hell up, drop this, and talk 
> computers, okay?
> 
> >>..
> >>Now, after that many text about "Role of Meaning" is it just me that
> >>thinks that the time where better to be used for clearing technical
> >>problems?
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>Holm
> >>


Hmm....

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Mon Sep  7 02:24:25 2015
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:24:25 +0100
Subject: What kind of keyboard is this?
In-Reply-To: <CAAB_y5xhvPTqb=b8y=jL=G3LXoSVoCDa=7qmb=Lxxfux-xcS-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D212FA39.4E1C4%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

On 07/09/2015 03:16, "Win Heagy" <wheagy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I picked this up at Radio Shack about 25-30 years ago and have been
> hauling it around ever since.
> 
> http://imgur.com/oNEcRFv,VacFqrY#0
> (There should be two images...a link to the second.)
> 
> It was a surplus thing that RS was selling on the parts wall and I
> grabbed on the off chance I'd need it someday.  I lost the cardboard
> top to the plastic bag it came in, so I know nothing about it.
> 
> Anyone have any idea?

That's from a Coleco ADAM:

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/coleco/adam.php

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From simski at dds.nl  Mon Sep  7 04:10:26 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:10:26 +0200
Subject: DEC 8235 IC? (repost)
Message-ID: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>

As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it 
here. please don't be offended by this.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all.

is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?

I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and plugged in 
the ribbon cable connecting connector C and D the wrong way. some magic 
smoke came loose and there are a few chips broken .

by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect 
chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v...

The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but 
other boards could well be affected.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  7 04:16:36 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:16:36 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
Message-ID: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>

I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for 
ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics 
demo/test.
Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD 
drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.

So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which 
you can load  layered products you need.
It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The 
cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.

Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program 
in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?

Regards
Rod




From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Sep  7 05:37:35 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:37:35 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Sep 2015 10:16:36 +0100"
 <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <01PQGR7DDN1Y009JEU@beyondthepale.ie>

Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for 
> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics 
> demo/test.
> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD 
> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>
> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which 
> you can load  layered products you need.
> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The 
> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>

I've come across problems with CD media and/or CD drives in several alphas.
Sometimes cleaning the disks well helped (these were original CONDIST CDs too).
Other times cleaning the CD drive seemed to help but usually only for a while.
More often things quickly got worse and I had to change out the drive.

>
> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program 
> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>

I'm not sure what you mean here.  I have ALPHA VMS 8.3 running on a Digital
Personal WorkStation 500a and 8.2 running on an Alphaserver 800 5/500.  I'm
sure lots of people are running 8.3 on all sorts of Alphas.

I have two Dec 3000 Model 600 machines but neither works - the LEDs count down
to F0 (IIRC) and that's it.  Nothing happens on the console.  Both failed in
service, one when I was trying to reboot it remotely.  I think they used to run
V6.2 - they've been out of action a long time.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  7 07:32:48 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 13:32:48 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <01PQGR7DDN1Y009JEU@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01PQGR7DDN1Y009JEU@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <55ED83F0.7000805@btinternet.com>

Hello Peter
          Looks like I trod the same path as you.
I cleaned the CD with a microfibre cloth. No Joy.
I tried every scsi CD drive I have. After setting the jumpers of course.
Theres a couple more in the store I'll clean them up and  give them a try.
The wife and I (retired) are off for a week's KGB (kids gone back)
holiday to-morrow, so I'll have a go when I get back.

Rod


On 07/09/2015 11:37, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>
>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for 
>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour 
>> graphics demo/test.
>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our 
>> CD drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>
>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from 
>> which you can load  layered products you need.
>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. 
>> The cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>
>
> I've come across problems with CD media and/or CD drives in several 
> alphas.
> Sometimes cleaning the disks well helped (these were original CONDIST 
> CDs too).
> Other times cleaning the CD drive seemed to help but usually only for 
> a while.
> More often things quickly got worse and I had to change out the drive.
>
>>
>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist 
>> program in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with 
>> ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.  I have ALPHA VMS 8.3 running on a 
> Digital
> Personal WorkStation 500a and 8.2 running on an Alphaserver 800 
> 5/500.  I'm
> sure lots of people are running 8.3 on all sorts of Alphas.
>
> I have two Dec 3000 Model 600 machines but neither works - the LEDs 
> count down
> to F0 (IIRC) and that's it.  Nothing happens on the console.  Both 
> failed in
> service, one when I was trying to reboot it remotely.  I think they 
> used to run
> V6.2 - they've been out of action a long time.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep  7 07:53:07 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 2015 08:53:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150907125307.F3EE518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>


    > There are a number of things like that (e.g. the H786 power supply for
    > the BA11-N; [print sets] not available separately [online], but in the
    > 11/23 FMPS [online], if you know to look there): we ought to produce
    > some sort of registry, to collect such information in one place.

So I have started such a registry.

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/FMPSOnline.html

The concept is that eventually search engines will index that page, so people
looking for, say, '"BA11-N" prints' will wind up there, and that page will
tell them where to go.

I went through a number of PDP-11 print sets which are online (11/05S, 11/23,
11/34, etc) to compile the initial list, but it's just a start. I will add
others as I come across them; and if any knows of, or finds, any others (i.e.
print sets which _are_ online, but do not show up when looked for in common
search engines such as Google), please let me know, and I will add them.


    > I also found prints for the MF11-U, MF11-W, and MM11-Y; none of which
    > appear to be on-line (although the MF11-U ones might be in the 11/05S print
    > set, which ISTR is online).

On looking at the 11/05S print set online, I think it has most of the MM11-Y
prints, but some pages are apparently missing (it claims), so I think not
everything is there.

    > I don't think the ME11-L prints are online either, but those I have in
    > my 11/05 print set - I'll have to see if that print set is online
    > somewhere, no point re-scanning them, if so.

So it turns out that these don't seem to be online (in any form), but I have
a set of hardcopy in my set "PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings" (which is
different from the 05S set which _is_ online), so I will scan them in and
make them available at some point (especially since these seem to be the most
common PDP-11 core memory boards).

If anyone is desperately searching for them, please let me know, and I will
accelerate that process.

The situation with the ME11-L/MF11-L/MM11-L (which are all the same boards)
is slightly complicated. The board set is called an MM11-L (or -LP,
depending); G110+G231+H214 for non-parity, G109+G231+H215+M7529 for parity.
The MF11-L seems to be a backplane, plus an MM11-L board set; the ME11-L
seems to be an MF11-L in a box.

Some CPU backplanes (e.g. the older 11/05's) can also take an MM11-L board
set. (The _newer_ 11/05's have backplanes which take an MM11-Y - whether an
MM11-L would work in them, I have no idea.)

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep  7 08:21:22 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 2015 09:21:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150907132122.3773118C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > On looking at the 11/05S print set online, I think it has most of the
    > MM11-Y prints

Err, make that the 11/04 print set. (Sorry!) The 11/05S has the MF11-U (or
would that be MM11-U - I wonder if there's a system to the ME/MF/MM
designators).

	Noel

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Mon Sep  7 08:48:53 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 14:48:53 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>

I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however 
looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.

http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf

However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as 
supported, only the following:

Graphics Options
PBXGK
ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for 
supported PCI-based
Alpha Workstations and Servers.
PBXGD
PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D 
acceleration with
stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations 
and Servers.
PBXGF
3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for 
supported PCI-based
Alpha Workstations and Servers.
PBXGG
ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option

So you might be out of luck on that front.

Mark.


On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for 
> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour 
> graphics demo/test.
> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our 
> CD drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>
> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which 
> you can load  layered products you need.
> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. 
> The cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>
> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist 
> program in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA 
> VMS 8.3?
>
> Regards
> Rod
>
>
>


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Sep  7 09:56:08 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 07:56:08 -0700
Subject: Control Data ad: Omega 480 "370 compatible alternative" on eBay
In-Reply-To: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com>
References: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <55EDA588.7080902@bitsavers.org>

On 9/6/15 7:54 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea if this was a real
> product

there are a couple of manuals for it on bitsavers




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Sep  7 09:59:00 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 07:59:00 -0700
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
In-Reply-To: <20150907125307.F3EE518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150907125307.F3EE518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EDA634.7050501@bitsavers.org>

On 9/7/15 5:53 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> So I have started such a registry.
>

Alan Frisbie has been scanning tons of stuff this past year. I expect that many missing schematics
will surface when that is made available.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Sep  7 10:01:19 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:01:19 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com> <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>
 <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EDA6BF.2050508@bitsavers.org>

On 9/6/15 2:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> Lots of other disks to look through but it's a pain to get them written out; one of those HxC floppy drive emulators is looking rather nice right now :).
>

you might want to see if http://bitsavers.org/bits/Xerox/8010/extractXeroxFloppy.zip can be adapted to the 5" format



From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  7 10:22:42 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 16:22:42 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55EDABC2.3020009@btinternet.com>

Its got a PMAGB-B fitted in Turbochannel slot1 as per the 3000 600 user 
guide page 2-12 fig 2-8

Regards Rod


On 07/09/2015 14:48, Mark Wickens wrote:
> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, 
> however looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>
> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>
> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as 
> supported, only the following:
>
> Graphics Options
> PBXGK
> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for 
> supported PCI-based
> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
> PBXGD
> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D 
> acceleration with
> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations 
> and Servers.
> PBXGF
> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for 
> supported PCI-based
> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
> PBXGG
> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>
> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>
> Mark.
>
>
> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for 
>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour 
>> graphics demo/test.
>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our 
>> CD drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>
>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from 
>> which you can load  layered products you need.
>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. 
>> The cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>
>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist 
>> program in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with 
>> ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>
>> Regards
>> Rod
>>
>>
>>
>


From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Sep  7 09:52:34 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:52:34 -0400
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>

I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I
don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media (with
most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
wrote:

> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however
> looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>
> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>
> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as
> supported, only the following:
>
> Graphics Options
> PBXGK
> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
> supported PCI-based
> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
> PBXGD
> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D
> acceleration with
> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and
> Servers.
> PBXGF
> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
> supported PCI-based
> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
> PBXGG
> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>
> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>
> Mark.
>
>
>
> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for
>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics
>> demo/test.
>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD
>> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>
>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which
>> you can load  layered products you need.
>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The
>> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>
>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program
>> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>
>> Regards
>> Rod
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

From jrr at flippers.com  Mon Sep  7 10:32:54 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:32:54 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>

On 09/06/2015 2:00 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
> Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
> it work :D
>
> 2015-09-06 16:00 GMT-03:00 Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:
>
>> Alexander wrote...
>> -----
>> Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
>> Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
>> -----
>>
>> Loader roms:
>> You may be able to get by with that on loader roms. I've never found
>> eproms that were functional & pin compatible. What ones did you use for the
>> 1K variety?
>>
>> Microcode:
>> I doubt seriously the eproms would be stable for microcode. HP specs 5ns
>> speed parts for the microcode; what eproms work and can hit those speeds? I
>> suspect this is one of those "might seem to work" but is a really bad idea.
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
As Jay points out, it is the access speed required by the device you are 
substituting the EPROM for a ROM/PROM that counts. In some cases the 100 
to 400ns access speed of EPROMs won't matter (clock of under 1mHz for 
400ns 2716s to around 4mHz for 100ns EPROMs), but if you are running 
10mHz or faster reads then I suspect you will have problems unless you 
find faster devices than EPROMs for your substitute ROM/PROM...

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 10:34:20 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 12:34:20 -0300
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>

As I said in the original post I wrote, sometimes you gotta use flash
devices that are WAY faster than common EPROMs...

2015-09-07 12:32 GMT-03:00 John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com>:

> On 09/06/2015 2:00 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>
>> Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
>> it work :D
>>
>> 2015-09-06 16:00 GMT-03:00 Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>:
>>
>> Alexander wrote...
>>> -----
>>> Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these
>>> proms.
>>> Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Loader roms:
>>> You may be able to get by with that on loader roms. I've never found
>>> eproms that were functional & pin compatible. What ones did you use for
>>> the
>>> 1K variety?
>>>
>>> Microcode:
>>> I doubt seriously the eproms would be stable for microcode. HP specs 5ns
>>> speed parts for the microcode; what eproms work and can hit those
>>> speeds? I
>>> suspect this is one of those "might seem to work" but is a really bad
>>> idea.
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As Jay points out, it is the access speed required by the device you are
> substituting the EPROM for a ROM/PROM that counts. In some cases the 100 to
> 400ns access speed of EPROMs won't matter (clock of under 1mHz for 400ns
> 2716s to around 4mHz for 100ns EPROMs), but if you are running 10mHz or
> faster reads then I suspect you will have problems unless you find faster
> devices than EPROMs for your substitute ROM/PROM...
>
> John :-#)#
>
> --
> John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
> Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
>                  www.flippers.com
> "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Sep  7 12:24:32 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:24:32 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
 <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>



On 9/7/15 8:34 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
> sometimes you gotta use flash
> devices that are WAY faster than common EPROMs...
>

and sometimes that won't work, because the hold time of fast
devices is too short.


From djg at pdp8online.com  Mon Sep  7 12:29:58 2015
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 13:29:58 -0400
Subject: DEC 8235 IC? (repost)
In-Reply-To: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>
References: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <20150907172958.GA13459@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 11:10:26AM +0200, simon wrote:
> As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it
> here. please don't be offended by this.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all.
> 
> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
> 
I think this was all posted previously but if you missed it.
http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=cross

From bob at jfcl.com  Mon Sep  7 12:32:17 2015
From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:32:17 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160 Ebay
In-Reply-To: <470DE060-BA12-47D0-8F06-25F3FB9FED17@gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBueva9MbPMs7W9md59KY=y4omtxG3ZzA_DQxYoZ9Y9=MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EBA032.1030907@charter.net>
 <470DE060-BA12-47D0-8F06-25F3FB9FED17@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01d0e993$24845120$6d8cf360$@com>

> Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)?  

  Is any of the 160 software still around (e.g. the FORTRAN compiler?) ??
Original flavor, "A" or "G" model - I don't care.

  And no, I didn't win the auction :-)

Bob Armstrong




From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Sep  7 12:47:50 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 13:47:50 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
 <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>

But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could
theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern
components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily
obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable with
inexpensive, contemporary USB device programmers which are definitely big
positives.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 9/7/15 8:34 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>
>> sometimes you gotta use flash
>> devices that are WAY faster than common EPROMs...
>>
>>
> and sometimes that won't work, because the hold time of fast
> devices is too short.
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep  7 17:09:29 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 2015 18:09:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
Message-ID: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I've mentioned how I've seen this wierd behaviour where QBUS memory boards
that hadn't been used in a long time didn't work when first plugged in, but
started working later.

I just had something even weirder happen, and am curious if anyone has an
plausible explanations.

So I had a dead M8044 (MSV11-D), symptom was that you could write -1 to any
location, it read back as 0. Quite repeatable, I can power cycle the machine,
take the card in and out, etc, etc.

So I throw it on an extender, and start chasing. I have a two instruction
loop (write location 0, loop), and I'm watching the data going into the
memory chips on the card, and it all looks good. So I add a third instruction
(read location 0, after the write), and continue chasing.

Data looks good coming out of the chips; then it goes to an octal latch. So I
look at the latch enable, and that doesn't look so hot - just a tiny little
ugly spike. So I look at the source of that, and it's a D flop. So I look at
the D flop's clock input, and it's also a nasty little spike. So that comes
from the output of a triple-AND, and so I start looking at the inputs of the
3-AND. And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory
suddenly starts working!

Well, I could see that - the added resistance or capacitance or whatever of
the probe might have had some effect on a circuit that was right on the edge.
But here's where the ghost enters the machine.

I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the memory keeps working!

I can power cycle the machine, leave it off for 15 minutes, power it back on
- and the memory still works fine!


Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?!

I feel like I'm in some sort of AI koan...

	Noel

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Mon Sep  7 17:18:21 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 23:18:21 +0100
Subject: BBC Model B with Raspberry Pi Internals
Message-ID: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk>

Bit of a tricky one to google this, so thought I'd consult the list - 
does anyone know of a documented project that replaced the internals of 
a BBC Model B with a Raspberry Pi (or MiniITX PC) interfacing with 
keyboard etc. to bring modern internals with a traditional interface?

I don't even know if there is a word for these kind of projects?

Thanks, Mark.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep  7 17:20:48 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:20:48 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
 <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001d0e9bb$7371d320$5a557960$@classiccmp.org>

Sean wrote....
-----
But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable with inexpensive, contemporary USB device programmers which are definitely big positives.
-----
I agree... and have suggestions. Prior art exists, I have seen the arcade crew use adapters to modify the pins of newer devices to be compatible.

For loader roms, there are about 10 official images from HP. Plus, most users (myself for sure) would want around 2 images that are user-created. The system board supports 4 roms, selectable by front panel. The issue with the solution the arcade crew has done - the adapters make the new memory devices too tall to allow clearance above. In chassis after a certain date code there is a cutout to access the rom sockets without removing the system board. In those, the clearance issue is the bottom of the memory controller. In prior revs, the issue is the metal work not providing clearance. I'm not saying a solution can't be found, but whoever develops such a device needs to be aware of the clearance issues particularly on the older rev machines. The only thing I can think of that is likely to have proper clearance is a board that has pins going to each 4 rom sockets, and the replacement memories are placed under the board - not on top of it - carefully avoiding existing chips on the system board. Regardless... whoever designs such a board needs to have a 21MX in front of them to assure clearances. Also, I'd have to check, but the precise spacing between the rom sockets may well be different between the M and E versions. All that being said, it would be nice if the board supported say 12 images, any 4 of which could be selected as active.

Now, here's a better take on the problem.... design a card that goes into a memory slot. Most all machines have many empty memory slots even when full of memory. Then a ribbon cable could go down to a paddle board that plugs into the 4 rom sockets. The board in the memory slot could get power straight from the backplane. The ribbon/paddleboard relieves the clearance problem. Extra points if this board also houses 1mw of ram and connects to the memory controller as usual. Even better points if the board replaces the memory controller and provides both 1mw ram plus loader roms :>

For microcode, you'd sure have to find a way to get past the speed issue. Since the 21MX's take microcode on the cpu board, or a FAB board, or a FEM board (and the "fab" is very different on the 21MX/M)... you've got a lot of choices. My bet - the most functional approach is to ignore trying to deal with microcode prom replacement on the cpu and fab boards. Instead, provide a single "new" "FEM" board that presents 24 bit wide memory modules of appropriate speed. Basically, this becomes a WCS board - with modern memory devices. There's a pretty large number of microcode options that could get stuffed into such a device. The only down side - FEM boards take an I/O slot, and one HP OS in particular will have an issue where I/O slots are pre-allocated and not configurable at sysgen time. Extra points if the board can also include devices that everyone always puts in - namely a TBG and HSterm/BACI. Not sure how one could handle the select code logic in one slot, would probably need paddleboards. But my advice - solve the speed issue first ;)

J





From jsw at ieee.org  Mon Sep  7 18:00:18 2015
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 18:00:18 -0500
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <F73ADC8B-1369-4655-ADC6-39E9253291F8@ieee.org>

Check if the -5v charge pump is stable and supplying the correct voltage.    

I recall a problem with a PDP 11/34 and a non-DEC memory board in
which the on board pump went slowly bad.  Depending on the
data content and tolerance margins for the memory chips, we saw
very erratic problems.  


Jerry



> On Sep 7, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> So I've mentioned how I've seen this wierd behaviour where QBUS memory boards
> that hadn't been used in a long time didn't work when first plugged in, but
> started working later.
> 
> I just had something even weirder happen, and am curious if anyone has an
> plausible explanations.
> 
> So I had a dead M8044 (MSV11-D), symptom was that you could write -1 to any
> location, it read back as 0. Quite repeatable, I can power cycle the machine,
> take the card in and out, etc, etc.
> 
> So I throw it on an extender, and start chasing. I have a two instruction
> loop (write location 0, loop), and I'm watching the data going into the
> memory chips on the card, and it all looks good. So I add a third instruction
> (read location 0, after the write), and continue chasing.
> 
> Data looks good coming out of the chips; then it goes to an octal latch. So I
> look at the latch enable, and that doesn't look so hot - just a tiny little
> ugly spike. So I look at the source of that, and it's a D flop. So I look at
> the D flop's clock input, and it's also a nasty little spike. So that comes
> from the output of a triple-AND, and so I start looking at the inputs of the
> 3-AND. And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory
> suddenly starts working!
> 
> Well, I could see that - the added resistance or capacitance or whatever of
> the probe might have had some effect on a circuit that was right on the edge.
> But here's where the ghost enters the machine.
> 
> I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the memory keeps working!
> 
> I can power cycle the machine, leave it off for 15 minutes, power it back on
> - and the memory still works fine!
> 
> 
> Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?!
> 
> I feel like I'm in some sort of AI koan...
> 
> 	Noel


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  7 18:03:58 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 16:03:58 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <001001d0e9bb$7371d320$5a557960$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>,
 <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>,
 <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <001001d0e9bb$7371d320$5a557960$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W866215D3EA9524EAC89F92A3540@phx.gbl>

If I were doing it.
First you need to find out if it needs OC output.
There are many flash parts in surface mount that can have
the higher speeds.
Add some 74LVC245 to give bus drive needed, also surface mount.
All on a little PC board. There would be a lot of wasted space in the
flash but what the heck.
Put an edge connector on the board to deal with programming.
All will fit in a smaller space than the original part.
Dwight

 
> From: jwest at classiccmp.org
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request)
> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:20:48 -0500
> 
> Sean wrote....
> -----
> But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable with inexpensive, contemporary USB device programmers which are definitely big positives.
> -----
> I agree... and have suggestions. Prior art exists, I have seen the arcade crew use adapters to modify the pins of newer devices to be compatible.
> 
> For loader roms, there are about 10 official images from HP. Plus, most users (myself for sure) would want around 2 images that are user-created. The system board supports 4 roms, selectable by front panel. The issue with the solution the arcade crew has done - the adapters make the new memory devices too tall to allow clearance above. In chassis after a certain date code there is a cutout to access the rom sockets without removing the system board. In those, the clearance issue is the bottom of the memory controller. In prior revs, the issue is the metal work not providing clearance. I'm not saying a solution can't be found, but whoever develops such a device needs to be aware of the clearance issues particularly on the older rev machines. The only thing I can think of that is likely to have proper clearance is a board that has pins going to each 4 rom sockets, and the replacement memories are placed under the board - not on top of it - carefully avoiding existing chips on the system board. Regardless... whoever designs such a board needs to have a 21MX in front of them to assure clearances. Also, I'd have to check, but the precise spacing between the rom sockets may well be different between the M and E versions. All that being said, it would be nice if the board supported say 12 images, any 4 of which could be selected as active.
> 
> Now, here's a better take on the problem.... design a card that goes into a memory slot. Most all machines have many empty memory slots even when full of memory. Then a ribbon cable could go down to a paddle board that plugs into the 4 rom sockets. The board in the memory slot could get power straight from the backplane. The ribbon/paddleboard relieves the clearance problem. Extra points if this board also houses 1mw of ram and connects to the memory controller as usual. Even better points if the board replaces the memory controller and provides both 1mw ram plus loader roms :>
> 
> For microcode, you'd sure have to find a way to get past the speed issue. Since the 21MX's take microcode on the cpu board, or a FAB board, or a FEM board (and the "fab" is very different on the 21MX/M)... you've got a lot of choices. My bet - the most functional approach is to ignore trying to deal with microcode prom replacement on the cpu and fab boards. Instead, provide a single "new" "FEM" board that presents 24 bit wide memory modules of appropriate speed. Basically, this becomes a WCS board - with modern memory devices. There's a pretty large number of microcode options that could get stuffed into such a device. The only down side - FEM boards take an I/O slot, and one HP OS in particular will have an issue where I/O slots are pre-allocated and not configurable at sysgen time. Extra points if the board can also include devices that everyone always puts in - namely a TBG and HSterm/BACI. Not sure how one could handle the select code logic in one slot, would probably need paddleboards. But my advice - solve the speed issue first ;)
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep  7 18:05:23 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 01:05:23 +0200
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EE1833.1040105@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-08 00:09, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> So I've mentioned how I've seen this wierd behaviour where QBUS memory boards
> that hadn't been used in a long time didn't work when first plugged in, but
> started working later.
>
> I just had something even weirder happen, and am curious if anyone has an
> plausible explanations.
>
> So I had a dead M8044 (MSV11-D), symptom was that you could write -1 to any
> location, it read back as 0. Quite repeatable, I can power cycle the machine,
> take the card in and out, etc, etc.
>
> So I throw it on an extender, and start chasing. I have a two instruction
> loop (write location 0, loop), and I'm watching the data going into the
> memory chips on the card, and it all looks good. So I add a third instruction
> (read location 0, after the write), and continue chasing.
>
> Data looks good coming out of the chips; then it goes to an octal latch. So I
> look at the latch enable, and that doesn't look so hot - just a tiny little
> ugly spike. So I look at the source of that, and it's a D flop. So I look at
> the D flop's clock input, and it's also a nasty little spike. So that comes
> from the output of a triple-AND, and so I start looking at the inputs of the
> 3-AND. And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory
> suddenly starts working!
>
> Well, I could see that - the added resistance or capacitance or whatever of
> the probe might have had some effect on a circuit that was right on the edge.
> But here's where the ghost enters the machine.
>
> I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the memory keeps working!
>
> I can power cycle the machine, leave it off for 15 minutes, power it back on
> - and the memory still works fine!
>
>
> Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?!
>
> I feel like I'm in some sort of AI koan...

A bad solder. Physically affecting it could make ti get a good connection.

As for memory starting to work better after a while, other things that 
can have effect are bad capacitors that improve performance after a 
while. Or another case of bad solder. Heat expansion can also affect bad 
solders.

If you've never actually build electronics this might sound strange, but 
anyone who have been soldering stuff have seen plenty of this.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Sep  7 21:01:27 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:01:27 -0500
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EE4177.6040305@pico-systems.com>

On 09/07/2015 05:09 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>   And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory
> suddenly starts working!
>
> Well, I could see that - the added resistance or capacitance or whatever of
> the probe might have had some effect on a circuit that was right on the edge.
> But here's where the ghost enters the machine.
>
> I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the memory keeps working!
>
> I can power cycle the machine, leave it off for 15 minutes, power it back on
> - and the memory still works fine!
>
>
> Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?!
>
>
I've seen this plenty before.  Here are a couple possible 
causes.

1.  There was a conductive hair on the board, and you 
knocked it off with the probe.

2.  There was a bad solder joint and the pressure of the 
probe broke through the oxide.  it will fail again within a 
day or a couple weeks if this is the cause.  This is my 
highest probability guess. Check that pin and the power and 
ground pins of that chip for ANY signs of funky soldering.

3.  The chip has a bad internal wire bond, and the pressure 
on the lead made it work.  Probably will fail again if this 
is the case.

I've seen some REALLY crazy stuff.  The wildest one was a 
short inside a 2-layer board in a tape controller.  it just 
went catatonic one day.  The failure was the master_reset/ 
line was shorted to ground.  I finally tracked it to a 1" 
length of circuit trace, with no ground really close to it 
on either side!  I cut the trace at both ends and put a 
piece of wire-wrap wire to tie them together.  I peeled the 
shorted track off the board, and there was NO TRACE 
whatsoever of what could have been causing the short.  I had 
expected there was a little pit in the epoxy laminate that 
got plated, but no such thing!

Jon

From derschjo at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 21:21:12 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 19:21:12 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EDA6BF.2050508@bitsavers.org>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com> <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>
 <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com> <55EDA6BF.2050508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55EE4618.5070605@gmail.com>

On 9/7/15 8:01 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/6/15 2:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>> Lots of other disks to look through but it's a pain to get them 
>> written out; one of those HxC floppy drive emulators is looking 
>> rather nice right now :).
>>
>
> you might want to see if 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/Xerox/8010/extractXeroxFloppy.zip can be 
> adapted to the 5" format
>
>
>

Cool, I didn't know of that tool's existence.  From the code, it looks 
like 5.25" formats may already work:

switch(sectors)
{
     ...
     case 9: sectorsT0 = 16;  /* 5.25 inch 360k */
     ...
}

I'll have to play with it when I have a few minutes...

Thanks!
Josh


From chrise at pobox.com  Mon Sep  7 21:35:02 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 21:35:02 -0500
Subject: Control Data ad: Omega 480 "370 compatible alternative" on eBay
In-Reply-To: <55ED1435.1010504@sydex.com>
References: <20150907025459.GB22999@lonesome.com> <55ED1435.1010504@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <FC65631F-D2EC-4BD0-99C7-7FD19FC0366C@pobox.com>

So, an IBM compatible machine, sold by CDC, with a DEC terminal for the console? Must have been the beginning of the end :-)

On September 6, 2015 11:36:05 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>On 09/06/2015 07:54 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
>>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-197X-RARE-CONTROL-DATA-AD-OMEGA-480-370-COMPATIBLE-ALTERNATIVE-Q-/271967493965?hash=item3f52869f4d
>>
>>  Not that I'm going to bid on it, but ... I had never heard of this
>> CDC product before.  Does anyone have any idea if this was a real
>> product, or just a way to poke IBM in the eye, or what?
>
>It's not a CDC product--it was made by IPL Systems, Inc. and marketed
>by 
>CDC and supplied with CDC peripherals.  I don't know if the agreement 
>yielded much in sales; by 1981, IPL was selling to end users under its 
>own brand.
>
>Olivetti also sold IPL iron.
>
>Yet another of several IBM mainframe clone makers.
>
>--Chuck

-- 
Chris Elmquist

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:23:55 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 22:23:55 -0700
Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186?
In-Reply-To: <55EE4618.5070605@gmail.com>
References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org>
 <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com> <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org>
 <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com> <55EDA6BF.2050508@bitsavers.org>
 <55EE4618.5070605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EE70EB.7010906@gmail.com>

On 9/7/15 7:21 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 9/7/15 8:01 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 9/6/15 2:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>> Lots of other disks to look through but it's a pain to get them 
>>> written out; one of those HxC floppy drive emulators is looking 
>>> rather nice right now :).
>>>
>>
>> you might want to see if 
>> http://bitsavers.org/bits/Xerox/8010/extractXeroxFloppy.zip can be 
>> adapted to the 5" format
>>
>>
>>
>
> Cool, I didn't know of that tool's existence.  From the code, it looks 
> like 5.25" formats may already work:
>
> switch(sectors)
> {
>     ...
>     case 9: sectorsT0 = 16;  /* 5.25 inch 360k */
>     ...
> }
>
> I'll have to play with it when I have a few minutes...
>
> Thanks!
> Josh
>

Quick update:  This compiled (with warnings) on my Mac and seems to run 
fine.  It does appear to support 5.25" 360K images and I was able to 
extract files from the 1186/6085 images (from Bitsavers). The ViewPoint 
images do not seem to have any loosely-packaged font files on them, 
they're all in some kind of container format.  The 1186 images  yielded 
a bit more fruit, there are font files with extension ".STRIKE" on the 
XDE floppies and ".PSCFONT" on "Medley LispUsers #15".

Neither of these seem to match the few examples of filenames I see in 
the 1186 docs, but I'll see if I can get a couple of these disks written 
out and see what's what later this week.

I also looked briefly at the images for the 1108 and nothing obvious 
jumped out.


- Josh


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 00:28:36 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 22:28:36 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1441645200.9246.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1441645200.9246.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <718742ACE4284E94AD6CA5C555257D45@workshop>

Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
Marc


From js at cimmeri.com  Tue Sep  8 00:58:44 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 00:58:44 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <718742ACE4284E94AD6CA5C555257D45@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1441645200.9246.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <718742ACE4284E94AD6CA5C555257D45@workshop>
Message-ID: <55EE7914.1010105@cimmeri.com>

On 9/8/2015 12:28 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
> Marc
>
>
>

Nice to hear that people are still *writing* things down...

- J.

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 01:02:05 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 03:02:05 -0300
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <55EE7914.1010105@cimmeri.com>
References: <mailman.1.1441645200.9246.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <718742ACE4284E94AD6CA5C555257D45@workshop>
 <55EE7914.1010105@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKTD6_QpiRd9JXiPHAHqixrBwgO7+AA5dtgyPSSv+=ed3g@mail.gmail.com>

I still do. And I'm even looking for an apple parker vector rollerball pen
:) :) :)
Em 08/09/2015 02:58, "js at cimmeri.com" <js at cimmeri.com> escreveu:

> On 9/8/2015 12:28 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Nice to hear that people are still *writing* things down...
>
> - J.
>

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep  8 01:21:37 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 08:21:37 +0200
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150908062137.GA59911@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

[..]
> - and the memory still works fine!
> 
> 
> Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?!
> 
> I feel like I'm in some sort of AI koan...
> 
> 	Noel

- bad solder joint
- bad via
- thin whisker
- bad wire bonding in the chip

..that are the possibilities come to mind.

I would change the and gate chip and resolder the vias in it's area.
Cleaning both sides of the PCB with a thootbrush and isopropanol
isn a good idea anyways.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk  Tue Sep  8 02:27:00 2015
From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:27:00 +0100
Subject: BBC Model B with Raspberry Pi Internals
In-Reply-To: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D2144C54.4E211%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk>

On 07/09/2015 23:18, "Mark Wickens" <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:

> Bit of a tricky one to google this, so thought I'd consult the list -
> does anyone know of a documented project that replaced the internals of
> a BBC Model B with a Raspberry Pi (or MiniITX PC) interfacing with
> keyboard etc. to bring modern internals with a traditional interface?
> 
> I don't even know if there is a word for these kind of projects?

Hi Mark,

I remembered someone doing both a C64 and a BBC B, both are on mini-itx.com
from way back in '05: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/bbcitxb/

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?



From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Sep  7 17:05:29 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 17:05:29 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401d0e8d3$99dc9ce0$cd95d6a0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKTSy+3y8m7oBWjmrABpqPVWnkoCSxSHSC9nG95-+7PJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001501d0e8d6$5e13ddb0$1a3b9910$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANdZFKSWQ6O+QW427=Bsk-yk2BHNwmDMpcPjmTZN3d4zpEjS+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDAE26.60501@flippers.com>
 <CANdZFKSmrtriKRqrksEPfb56Kfc4_wsBXFQPpYJLd6Tn3rw_nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55EDC850.6060502@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA43vkXsy75g_Bt2A8NOSJBd7G7o4NJ1Q3v-pLSCzW_0Jpy64A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55EE0A29.4090503@pico-systems.com>

On 09/07/2015 12:47 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could
> theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern
> components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily
> obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable with
> inexpensive, contemporary USB device programmers which are definitely big
> positives.
>
>
Most likely, one could use a parallel modern EPROM that is 
as fast as the old bipolar PROM.
Of course, the pinout would be totally different, probably 
in a larger size package with way more pins.

This one is 256K and 70 ns access time.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AT28HC256-70JU/AT28HC256-70JU-ND/2050794

If you REALLY need it fast, Winbond has a 45 ns EPROM, but 
not in stock at Digi-Key.
That's their W27C512-45Z

Jon

From simski at dds.nl  Tue Sep  8 00:43:51 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:43:51 +0200
Subject: list troubles. was: DEC 8235 IC? (repost)
In-Reply-To: <20150907172958.GA13459@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
References: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>
 <20150907172958.GA13459@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
Message-ID: <55EE7597.90407@dds.nl>



On 07-09-15 19:29, David Gesswein wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 11:10:26AM +0200, simon wrote:
>> As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it
>> here. please don't be offended by this.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Hi all.
>>
>> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
>>
> I think this was all posted previously but if you missed it.
> http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=cross
>

Hi,

I had some troubles with the list. I unsubscribed before my holiday and 
forgot to subscribe again afterwards, bus somehow my first post still 
ended up in the list, although i was not subscribed. Of course I did not 
see the post or its replies, hence the subscription and repost. that 
ended up in another thread (in my mailclient at least) so then the third 
post.

thank you for the link.
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Tue Sep  8 03:58:48 2015
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:58:48 +1000
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
 <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC9673A7-8E1D-4379-BBC0-10C9023D3A6F@kerberos.davies.net.au>

I don?t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an upgrade but not as an original install.

ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support booting older systems.

As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong?

Huw

> On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I
> don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media (with
> most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however
>> looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>> 
>> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>> 
>> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as
>> supported, only the following:
>> 
>> Graphics Options
>> PBXGK
>> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>> supported PCI-based
>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>> PBXGD
>> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D
>> acceleration with
>> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and
>> Servers.
>> PBXGF
>> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>> supported PCI-based
>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>> PBXGG
>> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>> 
>> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> 
>>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for
>>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics
>>> demo/test.
>>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD
>>> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>> 
>>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which
>>> you can load  layered products you need.
>>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The
>>> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>> 
>>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program
>>> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Rod
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Tue Sep  8 03:58:48 2015
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 18:58:48 +1000
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
 <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC9673A7-8E1D-4379-BBC0-10C9023D3A6F@kerberos.davies.net.au>

I don?t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an upgrade but not as an original install.

ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support booting older systems.

As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong?

Huw

> On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I
> don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media (with
> most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however
>> looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>> 
>> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>> 
>> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as
>> supported, only the following:
>> 
>> Graphics Options
>> PBXGK
>> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>> supported PCI-based
>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>> PBXGD
>> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D
>> acceleration with
>> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and
>> Servers.
>> PBXGF
>> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>> supported PCI-based
>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>> PBXGG
>> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>> 
>> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> 
>>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for
>>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics
>>> demo/test.
>>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD
>>> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>> 
>>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which
>>> you can load  layered products you need.
>>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The
>>> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>> 
>>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program
>>> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Rod
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From ats at offog.org  Tue Sep  8 04:29:41 2015
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:29:41 +0100
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's
 message of "Mon, 7 Sep 2015 18:09:29 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <20150907220929.97BE518C122@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <y2awpw1ntru.fsf@cartman.at.offog.org>

jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) writes:

> And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory
> suddenly starts working! [...] I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the
> memory keeps working!

A dry joint on that pin, or some other kind of intermittent connection
where a gentle poke with the scope probe was enough to make it come
good?

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>

From ats at offog.org  Tue Sep  8 04:46:20 2015
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:46:20 +0100
Subject: BBC Model B with Raspberry Pi Internals
In-Reply-To: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk> (Mark Wickens's message of
 "Mon, 7 Sep 2015 23:18:21 +0100")
References: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <y2asi6pnt03.fsf@cartman.at.offog.org>

Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes:

> does anyone know of a documented project that replaced the internals
> of a BBC Model B with a Raspberry Pi (or MiniITX PC) interfacing with
> keyboard etc. to bring modern internals with a traditional interface?

This one's been around for a while:
  http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/bbcitxb/

Tynemouth Software do USB keyboard controllers for the keyboards of
various 80s micros, including the BBC:
  http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/2014/09/bbc-micro-usb-keyboard.html
  https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/TynemouthSoftware

I wouldn't want to dismantle a working machine to do this, but it was
common enough back in the day -- I converted a dead Dragon 32 into a Z80
machine in the early 90s, and I was given a terminal keyboard fitted
with a ZX Spectrum motherboard at one point. It certainly seems a better
use for (say) an Electron with a dead ULA than just sitting around
gathering dust, and it's easy enough to do it reversibly these days.

I've occasionally wondered about building an ARM workstation inside an
IBM Model M keyboard...

Cheers,

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep  8 05:53:09 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 2015 06:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
Message-ID: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerry Weiss

    > Check if the -5v charge pump is stable and supplying the correct voltage.    
    > I recall a problem ... in which the on board pump went slowly bad.
    > Depending on the data content and tolerance margins for the memory
    > chips, we saw very erratic problems.

That doesn't sound like my problem; this board was _consistently_ failing
hard (would not write _any_ data, no-how, no-where), and then *poof* it was
pretty consistently totally working (passing memory diags, etc).

And the change from 'consistently not working at all' to 'working completely'
happened when I 'touched' (see below) that pin with a probe. So either i) it
was pure coincidence (possible, I suppose), or ii) there was some wierd
causality.


    > From: Jon Elson

    > 1. There was a conductive hair on the board, and you knocked it off
    > with the probe.

I'd brushed the board pretty comprehensively with a toothbrush to get all the
dust off. (Yeah, I know, static - but it's pretty humid here right at the
moment! ;-)

    > 2. There was a bad solder joint and the pressure of the probe broke
    > through the oxide. ... This is my highest probability guess. ...
    > 3. The chip has a bad internal wire bond, and the pressure on the lead
    > made it work.

Well, I was using a DIP clip, so the pressure on the pin was pretty
consistent before and after. Yeah, attaching the 'scope probe to the second
pin would have wiggled the clip a tiny bit, but I'm still dubious.


My current best guess, after sleeping on it, relates to the fact that the
'magic' pin was an output from a delay line. Delay lines, in that era, were
apparently potted confections of inductors and capacitors. So maybe the extra
current drain with the probe on somehow affected one (or more) of the
capacitors in the delay line? A total WAG, but it's very mysterious!

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Sep  8 11:21:55 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:21:55 -0500
Subject: A poltergeist in my machine?
In-Reply-To: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>

On 09/08/2015 05:53 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
> My current best guess, after sleeping on it, relates to the fact that the
> 'magic' pin was an output from a delay line. Delay lines, in that era, were
> apparently potted confections of inductors and capacitors. So maybe the extra
> current drain with the probe on somehow affected one (or more) of the
> capacitors in the delay line? A total WAG, but it's very mysterious!
>
Most potted delay lines are made the same way.  You take a 
piece of aluminum foil-coated paper and roll it into a 
tube.  You then wind extremely fine magnet wire onto the 
tube.  The foil is a ground plane, and one of the 
distributed capacitor plates.  The wire is the distributed 
inductor and the other capacitor "plate".  This technology 
was used in the first color TVs, and I think pretty much 
everybody used the same technology for digital delays.

Well, it could be the delay line is going bad.

Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep  8 11:45:30 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 2015 12:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
Message-ID: <20150908164530.5166918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > Anyway, thanks for the schematics

Eh, de nada.

    > I have the board running again. The fix was simple, the xtal was bad.

You're lucky it was something so simple! (Although we've seen this kind
of thing before - I had that 11/23 with a bad crystal.)

I've got three dead 11/73 boards (from someone else), but none of them are
that easy. Different symptoms on all three, but I suspect the State Sequencer
gate array on all three. On one, at least, the ILOE latch control signal from
that gate array is sitting at 2V (which I seem to recall is characteristic of
a TTL input that's not being driven).

Maybe it's just some corrosion, and re-seating the gate array (if I can work
out how to unseat it - don't have the extraction tool) will fix it.
Otherwise, I'm SOL. At least the J11 there are spares for - that gate array
is surely umobtainium.

	Noel

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep  8 13:12:20 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 20:12:20 +0200
Subject: Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?
In-Reply-To: <20150908164530.5166918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150908164530.5166918C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150908181220.GA87874@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa wrote:

>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     > Anyway, thanks for the schematics
> 
> Eh, de nada.
> 
>     > I have the board running again. The fix was simple, the xtal was bad.
> 
> You're lucky it was something so simple! (Although we've seen this kind
> of thing before - I had that 11/23 with a bad crystal.)
> 
> I've got three dead 11/73 boards (from someone else), but none of them are
> that easy. Different symptoms on all three, but I suspect the State Sequencer
> gate array on all three. On one, at least, the ILOE latch control signal from
> that gate array is sitting at 2V (which I seem to recall is characteristic of
> a TTL input that's not being driven).
> 
> Maybe it's just some corrosion, and re-seating the gate array (if I can work
> out how to unseat it - don't have the extraction tool) will fix it.
> Otherwise, I'm SOL. At least the J11 there are spares for - that gate array
> is surely umobtainium.
> 
> 	Noel

I do have an extraction tool, but was unable to extract the chips
out of the sockets w/o braking one socket... ok soldered in a new one
and put the chips back after cleaning the pins with a glass hair brush..

There is a german company that saves chips from old pcb's, If you are sure
that you need a chip, try to search the numbers in ther database:

http://demotronic.de/

I found at least the gate array type..

Search for all numbers, not only the "real" type.

Regrads,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 14:14:00 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 12:14:00 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
Message-ID: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>

>From: dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
>If I were doing it.
>First you need to find out if it needs OC output.
>There are many flash parts in surface mount that can have the higher
speeds.
>Add some 74LVC245 to give bus drive needed, also surface mount.
>All on a little PC board. There would be a lot of wasted space in the flash
but what the heck.
>Put an edge connector on the board to deal with programming.
>All will fit in a smaller space than the original part.
>Dwight

That would be great engineering fun! But at less than $4 for the blanks,
using the old PROMs and the vintage programmer seems pretty straightforward,
vintage correct, and low risk solution. Miraculously, my best offer got
accepted on ebay, so semi-affordable vintage clunky Data I/O 29B Programmer
and plenty of blanks are being shipped to me :-). I count collecting vintage
tools for servicing your vintage machine as part of the fun too...
Marc



From simski at dds.nl  Tue Sep  8 09:03:30 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 16:03:30 +0200
Subject: BBC Model B with Raspberry Pi Internals
In-Reply-To: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <55EE0D2D.4010305@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55EEEAB2.7030103@dds.nl>



On 08-09-15 00:18, Mark Wickens wrote:
> Bit of a tricky one to google this, so thought I'd consult the list -
> does anyone know of a documented project that replaced the internals of
> a BBC Model B with a Raspberry Pi (or MiniITX PC) interfacing with
> keyboard etc. to bring modern internals with a traditional interface?
>
> I don't even know if there is a word for these kind of projects?
>
> Thanks, Mark.
>
That is called a hack and that is what hacking is about:
http://hackaday.com/blog

It't fun!

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep  8 15:19:06 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:19:06 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>

The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison. For the cost of the
29B, you could design a replacement for the original PROM, have some boards
fabricated, stuff them and you'd still be ahead a few hundred bucks ...
starts to make sense at those kind of prices, imo.

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >From: dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
> >If I were doing it.
> >First you need to find out if it needs OC output.
> >There are many flash parts in surface mount that can have the higher
> speeds.
> >Add some 74LVC245 to give bus drive needed, also surface mount.
> >All on a little PC board. There would be a lot of wasted space in the
> flash
> but what the heck.
> >Put an edge connector on the board to deal with programming.
> >All will fit in a smaller space than the original part.
> >Dwight
>
> That would be great engineering fun! But at less than $4 for the blanks,
> using the old PROMs and the vintage programmer seems pretty
> straightforward,
> vintage correct, and low risk solution. Miraculously, my best offer got
> accepted on ebay, so semi-affordable vintage clunky Data I/O 29B Programmer
> and plenty of blanks are being shipped to me :-). I count collecting
> vintage
> tools for servicing your vintage machine as part of the fun too...
> Marc
>
>
>

From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Sep  8 16:17:25 2015
From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 21:17:25 +0000
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)?  This is a UNIBUS DH11 clone.  (There are also /FA, /FB, /FC, and /FD variants which are DMF32 clones - and we have the manual for these but it's of no use for our CS21/H boards :)).

At the very least, if anyone has the dip switch settings for this, that would be an immense help.

Thanks,
Josh

Sr. Vintage Software Engineer
Living Computer Museum
www.livingcomputermuseum.org<http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org>



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep  8 16:39:17 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:39:17 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>

Sean wrote....
------
The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM programmer. 
------
Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command such a price. Worth every penny.

I can't belittle a 30 year old piece of test equipment no more than I could a similarly aged computer :)

J



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Sep  8 16:55:45 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:55:45 +0100
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <55EF5961.4090004@dunnington.plus.com>

On 08/09/2015 22:17, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the
> /U variant)?  This is a UNIBUS DH11 clone.  (There are also /FA, /FB,
> /FC, and /FD variants which are DMF32 clones - and we have the manual
> for these but it's of no use for our CS21/H boards :)).
>
> At the very least, if anyone has the dip switch settings for this,
> that would be an immense help.

Not for a CS21/H, but I have the CS11/H tech manual.  I know they're 
contemporary, but presumably different; I have no idea how different. 
The CS11 has four DIP switches:

SW1-1,5,6 set various options
   (expanded silo, interleaving of DM11/DH11 vectors, force 2 stop bits)
SW1-2 is "not used and MUST BE OFF"
SW1-3,4 are used to set DM11/DH11 vectors with SW2
SW2-1...4 set vector address (DM11)
SW2-5...8 set vector address (DH11)
SW3-1 is RUN/HALT-RESET (open/closed)
SW3-2,3 set the number of CP11 panels in use
   (= number of DH11 emulations)
SW3-4 is the override for part of the selftest
SW4-1...4 set start address
SW4-5,6 are "not used and MUST BE OFF"

I don't know how much, if any, help that is.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  8 17:19:17 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 22:19:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <1751444116.2447355.1441750757859.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Can anyone help me to locate an old IBM 026 printing keypunch for a project on which I am working?I was an IBM Field Engineer many years ago and I used to service lots of Unit Record equipment at that time.Any help in locating a machine would be greatly appreciated.Thank you.
AlEx-IBM Field Engineer

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Tue Sep  8 18:07:07 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:07:07 -0500
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
Message-ID: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>

Several years ago, Vince Slyngstad and I "cloned" the rare DKC8-AA 
Programmer's Panel for PDP-8 with some improvements (0.6 vs. 0.3" LED 
displays, real "click" buttons instead of that membrane keypad, and fixed a 
couple of bugs in the original design). Also, since 8235's were scarce even 
then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs. output of the 
switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1 board.

That may have caused a lurking problem, since occasionally the SR will 
change bits when an address is loaded. Turns out an oscillation starts on 
the ground lines at about 20 MHz with certain entries at the keypad to LSR 
and LA (I can't see an obvious pattern). This parasitic is large enough (up 
to 2V p-p with respect to the chassis/rack) that it's clocking the D-flops 
used as the physical switch register! It can be seen in the 7-segment 
displays as a "flicker" which will change when I touch the ground on the 
board... attempts to add more grounds actually made the problem worse!

I'm thinking of redoing the board layout with better attention to ground 
planes/power buses. There's a .01 uf decoupling cap at every IC and 12 out 
of 40 pins on each of the two connecting ribbon cables are dedicated to 
ground. 7 on one, 5 on the other are for +5 volts.

On the other hand, I am tired of tinkering and considering just buying a 
real DKC8-AA if there's one out there. Anyone? ;)
-Charles


From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Sep  8 18:49:32 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 23:49:32 +0000
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <55EF5961.4090004@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <55EF5961.4090004@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBCEE07@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Pete Turnbull
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 2:56 PM

> On 08/09/2015 22:17, Josh Dersch wrote:

>> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the
>> /U variant)?  This is a UNIBUS DH11 clone.  (There are also /FA, /FB,
>> /FC, and /FD variants which are DMF32 clones - and we have the manual
>> for these but it's of no use for our CS21/H boards :)).

>> At the very least, if anyone has the dip switch settings for this,
>> that would be an immense help.

> Not for a CS21/H, but I have the CS11/H tech manual.  I know they're 
> contemporary, but presumably different; I have no idea how different. 
> The CS11 has four DIP switches:

  [snip]

> I don't know how much, if any, help that is.

Thanks, Pete.  Unfortunately for us, the CS11 and CS21 are very different.
The CS11/H is a DH11+DM11 device, while the CS21 is a DH11 "with DZ11 modem
control" according to the 1982 Emulex parts catalog at Bitsavers (see pages
60 and 65 respectively of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/1982_catalog_Mar82.pdf).

Best,
Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Sep  8 18:51:49 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:51:49 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <803F9990-4FE6-4F92-A2C5-53FF8E86253F@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Sep-08, at 2:39 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Sean wrote....
> ------
> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM programmer. 
> ------
> Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command such a price. Worth every penny.
> 
> I can't belittle a 30 year old piece of test equipment no more than I could a similarly aged computer :)

Alternatively, for the rare instance of need, burning fusible PROMs generally or often isn't very complex.

When I needed to burn a replacement 74S387 (256*4) for a repair awhile ago, I hacked up a programmer on a breadboard, controlled by a program running on an RPi. The hardware was an LM317, 7805, 3 TTL ICs, 5 transistors, and a few R/C/D. Add 4 more transistors for 8-bits.


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Sep  8 18:57:02 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:57:02 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1751444116.2447355.1441750757859.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1751444116.2447355.1441750757859.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D8777D44-7AAB-4DFD-9B92-1F3A98DD1F83@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Sep-08, at 3:19 PM, Able Baker wrote:
> Can anyone help me to locate an old IBM 026 printing keypunch for a project on which I am working?I was an IBM Field Engineer many years ago and I used to service lots of Unit Record equipment at that time.Any help in locating a machine would be greatly appreciated.Thank you.
> AlEx-IBM Field Engineer

Well, there's this, it's just too bad the price is ridiculous. It's been sitting on ebay for months.

	http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PIECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep  8 18:59:36 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:59:36 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <d3e93.114f32cc.4320d068@aol.com>

wow... that is absurd! $24,999
someone needs rehab...
 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI
ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 19:37:15 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 20:37:15 -0400
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch
<JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)?

I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results that I think
were CS21/H.  I have a box I can check tonight.  If it's not in there,
I don't know that I got the docs from 20+ years ago for that board.

-ethan

From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Tue Sep  8 19:43:27 2015
From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 00:43:27 +0000
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901FE6@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 5:37 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch <JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> > Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)?

> I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results that I think were CS21/H.  I have a box I can check tonight.  If it's not in there, I don't > know that I got the docs from 20+ years ago for that board.

> -ethan


Very cool, thanks for digging around for us!
- Josh

From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Tue Sep  8 19:48:53 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 17:48:53 -0700
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
In-Reply-To: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <EEEEE48C6CE24731A8F02C8BC5DDE2A7@Vincew7>

From: Charles: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 4:07 PM
> Also, since 8235's were scarce even 
> then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs. output of the 
> switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1 board.
> 
> That may have caused a lurking problem, since occasionally the SR will 
> change bits when an address is loaded. Turns out an oscillation starts on 
> the ground lines at about 20 MHz with certain entries at the keypad to LSR 
> and LA (I can't see an obvious pattern). This parasitic is large enough (up 
> to 2V p-p with respect to the chassis/rack) that it's clocking the D-flops 
> used as the physical switch register! It can be seen in the 7-segment 
> displays as a "flicker" which will change when I touch the ground on the 
> board... attempts to add more grounds actually made the problem worse!

When we did the 32K Omnibus memory boards, we initially went 
with ABT parts, but discovered they were way too fast, and creating 
phenomenal ground bounce.  Switching to LS parts reduced the 
problem to where the boards are useable.  Maybe an LS244 will 
do the same here?

    Vince 

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Tue Sep  8 21:35:09 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:35:09 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay

I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no 
return jump for you...

--Chuck

Which would make it even more scarce.  There were only a little over a 100 of the 160 models made.  And 40+ of them were rebranded as NCR machines.

There were 495 160-As made officially.  (There were also a small number shipped without serial numbers to the good people at Langley.)

I know of at least 5x 160-As still in existence, besides my own.  Which should be going to a museum this week if they can sort out shipping glitches.  My system includes a 161-A Typewriter in lousy shape and a 167-2 Card Reader in perfect shape.  Plus all manuals, software (with listings) and spare parts.  Even the paper tape rewinder!

I did not know any 160 machines survived, so who ever bought it has a unique item.

I have looked for 15 years for an 8092 = the first true 8 bit computer. Haven't found even a hint or rumor of one.

I am working with Al Kossow, to see that this material is eventually in his archives.

Billy Pettit


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 21:38:02 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:38:02 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ-BYixV9pDxVw-U72DH1NKnGuj3vELAOid4ovttQQGDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
> programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
> I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison.

You can currently buy a BP Microsystems CP-1128 for $38.50 shipped on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181853494660

For the HP 21MX PROMs being discussed it supports at least the following:

256x4 tri-state output
AM27S21
DM74S287
82S129 / 82S129A

512x8 tri-state output
AM27S31
DM74S474
82S141

1024x8 tri-state output
AM27S181
82S181 / 82S181A / 82S181B / 82S181C

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 23:34:55 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 23:34:55 -0500
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
In-Reply-To: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPkKw6ViVveT5poWTg7=fkNp-Vj=4cBaf3hhetObugnYg@mail.gmail.com>

I should have a few around here somewhere. I'll try to look this weekend.

Paul

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Charles <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net>
wrote:

> Several years ago, Vince Slyngstad and I "cloned" the rare DKC8-AA
> Programmer's Panel for PDP-8 with some improvements (0.6 vs. 0.3" LED
> displays, real "click" buttons instead of that membrane keypad, and fixed a
> couple of bugs in the original design). Also, since 8235's were scarce even
> then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs. output of the
> switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1 board.
>
> That may have caused a lurking problem, since occasionally the SR will
> change bits when an address is loaded. Turns out an oscillation starts on
> the ground lines at about 20 MHz with certain entries at the keypad to LSR
> and LA (I can't see an obvious pattern). This parasitic is large enough (up
> to 2V p-p with respect to the chassis/rack) that it's clocking the D-flops
> used as the physical switch register! It can be seen in the 7-segment
> displays as a "flicker" which will change when I touch the ground on the
> board... attempts to add more grounds actually made the problem worse!
>
> I'm thinking of redoing the board layout with better attention to ground
> planes/power buses. There's a .01 uf decoupling cap at every IC and 12 out
> of 40 pins on each of the two connecting ribbon cables are dedicated to
> ground. 7 on one, 5 on the other are for +5 volts.
>
> On the other hand, I am tired of tinkering and considering just buying a
> real DKC8-AA if there's one out there. Anyone? ;)
> -Charles
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep  9 00:01:37 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 22:01:37 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <55EFBD31.1030900@sydex.com>

On 09/08/2015 07:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:

>
> Which would make it even more scarce.  There were only a little over
> a 100 of the 160 models made.  And 40+ of them were rebranded as NCR
> machines.
>
> There were 495 160-As made officially.  (There were also a small
> number shipped without serial numbers to the good people at
> Langley.)
>
> I know of at least 5x 160-As still in existence, besides my own.
> Which should be going to a museum this week if they can sort out
> shipping glitches.  My system includes a 161-A Typewriter in lousy
> shape and a 167-2 Card Reader in perfect shape.  Plus all manuals,
> software (with listings) and spare parts.  Even the paper tape
> rewinder!
>
> I did not know any 160 machines survived, so who ever bought it has a
> unique item.

Well, I'm not much of a collector, so I don't know about values of old 
gear too much.  I do recall seeing a 160A and a 1604 on the machine 
floor at SVLOPS sometime during the mid 70s, however.  Since that's what 
the CEs at the time were doing a lot of, I suspect they were there for 
demolition.  I wonder if they were from FNWC or the Naval PG school in 
Monterey.

Really shows CDC's "scorched earth" policy during the 1970s, after it 
was discovered that some "customers" were purchasing parts on the scrap 
market.

Wonder what it was worth?  Probably about the same $0.60 per pound 
(IIRC) that the scrapped STAR-65 brought after it came back from Canada...

Now *that* or even a 1B would be rare indeed.

--CHuck


From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep  8 17:17:58 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:17:58 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>

Well, we all have differing levels of electronics knowledge ... and net
worth... which tip the calculus one way or the other depending on the one's
personal situation... As much as I do wish money could be no object, that's
not realistic for me.

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Sean wrote....
> ------
> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
> programmer.
> ------
> Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command such a price.
> Worth every penny.
>
> I can't belittle a 30 year old piece of test equipment no more than I
> could a similarly aged computer :)
>
> J
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep  8 17:41:03 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:41:03 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>

And I do love and appreciate the old, built-to-last-a-lifetime test
equipment ... my bench is all Racal, Tek, HP, Fluke, etc and the median age
is probably at least 25 years but, I mean, $400 is almost halfway to a nice
used spectrum analyzer and I know which I'd rather have :O Choices,
choices...

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Well, we all have differing levels of electronics knowledge ... and net
> worth... which tip the calculus one way or the other depending on the one's
> personal situation... As much as I do wish money could be no object, that's
> not realistic for me.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Sean wrote....
>> ------
>> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
>> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
>> programmer.
>> ------
>> Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command such a price.
>> Worth every penny.
>>
>> I can't belittle a 30 year old piece of test equipment no more than I
>> could a similarly aged computer :)
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>

From mokuba at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 01:26:55 2015
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 02:26:55 -0400
Subject: New BBS in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUVA+ku9J-W0vFPhj=D6dFWg5Lw09fCD6Q=vgJMoNz32Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh7e1S5d3QQzsC-W8frvs6FYww_ZNci=NKqAD7HP8MNcmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5D866EA-BCEC-4FF9-8142-AB0F32DA07A0@thecomputervalet.com>
 <CAH5WRh7Yxb5SGKXgtNXiHRXZTpMXb7sT6Y2x_+dWH1ijQT2oYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4Ye2rsPseF-EZ_HFKm_koUtDGyeAp73neqY_GT_8ivQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUgJ5a1XgJ+G28aX481+EARfrgQACmc-j7-p8Ao=jsoMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <079301d0447e$868510e0$938f32a0$@photojim.ca>
 <etPan.54d8d510.6b8b4567.b6fb@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <58097622-EAE5-459F-989B-D41D26CAD800@fozztexx.com>
 <CAA43vkXM7JuR4XZA7kcHiRSkvzyNSw2sXhd1rCX_j9fqZSTNGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <etPan.54d8ebda.74b0dc51.b894@tcvs-MacBook-Pro.local>
 <CAA43vkUVA+ku9J-W0vFPhj=D6dFWg5Lw09fCD6Q=vgJMoNz32Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh5Ri6CdtnKLwCqJ9HcG6HTKqzNNRUZyDUnv9ZDOdZmnmw@mail.gmail.com>

Necroing an old thread, but in case anyone's tried in the past two weeks
....

Verizon admitted fault when I called support off the bat! (why didn't they
fix it sooner....???)

Been offline due to a failed CO connection.

Oh well. Getting fixed now!

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> That can help and probably plays more a factor in professional deployments
> but for the hobbyist using the common broadband transports (cable, xDSL,
> ...) I find it mostly comes down to just getting the quickest connection
> you can reasonably afford and cranking up the jitter buffer :O
>
> Just using G.711 u-law (I haven't really played with other codecs to say
> whether that could be a factor) end-to-end I've been able to achieve 28.8
> kbps+ connects over VoIP with 50/10 Comast "business" as the transport on
> my side.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On February 9, 2015 at 11:16:30 AM, Sean Caron (scaron at umich.edu) wrote:
> >
> > It's all about latency and jitter. If you can keep the latency and jitter
> > down... and consistent... modems will actually work pretty well over VoIP
> > and you can sometimes pull off some fairly high data rates... If jitter
> on
> > the link is very bad, good luck, even at 300 baud.
> >
> > Is this something usually made better by setting up QoS or traffic
> shaping?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > m
> >
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 03:45:39 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 02:45:39 -0600
Subject: Zendex ZX-200A firmware reverse-engineered
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTgFmaJCaBx42XU6inZmYvjWmvm77NV6gF6RPtzwzHc7w@mail.gmail.com>

The original proprietor of Zendex has put the firmware of the ZX-200A
in the public domain, so I've put my reverse-engineered source code on
Github:

    https://github.com/brouhaha/zx200a-fw

The ZX-200A is a single-board Multibus floppy controller intended for
Intel MDS (including Series II and Series III) development systems,
replacing either or both the Intel dual-board SBC 201 single-density
and SBC 202 double-density floppy controllers. Since it can do both
densities, it can replace both Intel controllers simultaneously,
allowing the same floppy drives to be used for either density, by
using different logical drive numbers. We take it for granted that
"modern" floppy controllers often support selectable density, but with
those early Intel board-level floppy controllers that wasn't the case.

Also, the Intel SBC 202 double-density controller uses an
Intel-proprietary M2FM disk format, instead of IBM-compatible MFM.  As
such, none of the single-chip FDCs are compatible with it, with the
possible exception of the Western Digital 1781 (with a huge pile of
external support logic), and (less likely) the TI TMS9909.

Unfortunately the original ZX-200A manual, which contained the
schematics and source code, is not available, hence my project to
reverse-engineer it. I'm working on tracing out the schematic, but as
the board has 82 chips it is slow going.

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 04:07:40 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 05:07:40 -0400
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
In-Reply-To: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <AF384BD9-102F-4A60-A435-237E2CFC4BDD@gmail.com>

The 74f parts may be too fast. Try adding damping resistors (10 to 30 ohms) in series with the outputs to slow things down or just switch to 74ls

Joe

> On Sep 8, 2015, at 7:07 PM, "Charles" <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net> wrote:
> 
> Several years ago, Vince Slyngstad and I "cloned" the rare DKC8-AA Programmer's Panel for PDP-8 with some improvements (0.6 vs. 0.3" LED displays, real "click" buttons instead of that membrane keypad, and fixed a couple of bugs in the original design). Also, since 8235's were scarce even then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs. output of the switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1 board.
> 
> That may have caused a lurking problem, since occasionally the SR will change bits when an address is loaded. Turns out an oscillation starts on the ground lines at about 20 MHz with certain entries at the keypad to LSR and LA (I can't see an obvious pattern). This parasitic is large enough (up to 2V p-p with respect to the chassis/rack) that it's clocking the D-flops used as the physical switch register! It can be seen in the 7-segment displays as a "flicker" which will change when I touch the ground on the board... attempts to add more grounds actually made the problem worse!
> 
> I'm thinking of redoing the board layout with better attention to ground planes/power buses. There's a .01 uf decoupling cap at every IC and 12 out of 40 pins on each of the two connecting ribbon cables are dedicated to ground. 7 on one, 5 on the other are for +5 volts.
> 
> On the other hand, I am tired of tinkering and considering just buying a real DKC8-AA if there's one out there. Anyone? ;)
> -Charles
> 

From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Sep  9 04:21:28 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:21:28 +0200
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
In-Reply-To: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <627F2E0BAA0A44898F640DE2986AE127@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <55EFFA18.5000502@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-09 01:07, Charles wrote:
> Several years ago, Vince Slyngstad and I "cloned" the rare DKC8-AA
> Programmer's Panel for PDP-8 with some improvements (0.6 vs. 0.3" LED
> displays, real "click" buttons instead of that membrane keypad, and
> fixed a couple of bugs in the original design). Also, since 8235's were
> scarce even then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs.
> output of the switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1
> board.

Not sure what you mean by membrane keypad. My front panels certainly 
have real buttons, which makes a clicking noise and feeling when I press 
them. But maybe I'm confused and there is some membrane behind the keys 
or something?

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep  9 09:08:50 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 07:08:50 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <55EFBD31.1030900@sydex.com>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55EFBD31.1030900@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55F03D72.3020202@bitsavers.org>

On 9/8/15 10:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I wonder if they were from FNWC or the Naval PG school in Monterey.
>

The Blue Cube (Satellite Control Center) had a bunch of them as "Bird Buffers"
Likely in Sunnyvale in support of that.

I guess now that it is gone I should put up the docs on the facility that I
picked up on eBay.

The site is now flattened and is being turned into a "satellite" campus for
Foothill College. I turned this up a while back.

http://facilities.fhda.edu/_downloads/HABS%20Onizuka%20AFS.pdf



From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep  9 09:17:48 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 07:17:48 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <55F03D72.3020202@bitsavers.org>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55EFBD31.1030900@sydex.com> <55F03D72.3020202@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55F03F8C.5000704@bitsavers.org>

On 9/9/15 7:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> The Blue Cube (Satellite Control Center) had a bunch of them as "Bird Buffers"
> Likely in Sunnyvale in support of that.
>

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sdc/scf/TM-1146_Augmented_Satellite_Control_Facility_System_Description_Apr63.pdf

is an early description of the system. It moved from a 1604 to six 3800s and one 160A for every satellite
tracking center as of a report dated 1971




From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep  9 10:22:38 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:22:38 -0500
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>

On 9/8/2015 9:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:

> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay
> 
> I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no 
> return jump for you...
> 
> --Chuck
> 

But quite a lot of the other printed material with it on the listing
says 160-A.  Perhaps it got field upgraded, if such was done for that
machine.

JRJ

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 11:03:30 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:03:30 -0400
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/8/2015 9:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
>
> > Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay
> >
> > I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no
> > return jump for you...
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
>
> But quite a lot of the other printed material with it on the listing
> says 160-A.  Perhaps it got field upgraded, if such was done for that
> machine.
>
> JRJ
>


Comparing the 160 and 160-A manuals with the 160 in the ebay auction
(252070822992)

Page 37 of the 160 manual from 1960 -  smaller "160" marquee sign.
Page 3-1 of the 160-A marquee says "CONTROL DATA 160-A"
Ebay auction says "CONTROL DATA 160"

So, there were two variations of the 160 marquee/sign above the numeric
display.

----

Also, if a person is looking at the front of the computer, on the top left
side, there is a square cut-out / slot? in the original 160 table
(purpose?).  This slot does not appear on the 160-A's table (from the 1963
programming manual), nor is it present on the Ebay auction.

I am thinking this was originally a "later" 160 that was probably serviced
well into the 160-A days.

-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep  9 11:19:11 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 09:19:11 -0700
Subject: Zendex ZX-200A firmware reverse-engineered
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTgFmaJCaBx42XU6inZmYvjWmvm77NV6gF6RPtzwzHc7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTTgFmaJCaBx42XU6inZmYvjWmvm77NV6gF6RPtzwzHc7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F05BFF.8030201@sydex.com>

On 09/09/2015 01:45 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Also, the Intel SBC 202 double-density controller uses an
> Intel-proprietary M2FM disk format, instead of IBM-compatible MFM.
> As such, none of the single-chip FDCs are compatible with it, with
> the possible exception of the Western Digital 1781 (with a huge pile
> of external support logic), and (less likely) the TI TMS9909.

You forgot the Signetics 8X330, which, given the date, would actually be 
quite likely and make sense with an 8x30x Microcontroller, given its use 
with early Winchester drives.

AES and HP both, at some point, also used MMFM--and, if I have some time 
to mull it over, I suspect I could come up with a couple more.

FWIW,
Chuck


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep  9 11:29:49 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:29:49 -0500
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F05E7D.6050600@charter.net>

On 9/9/2015 11:03 AM, william degnan wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 9/8/2015 9:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
>>
>>> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay
>>>
>>> I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no
>>> return jump for you...
>>>
>>> --Chuck
>>>
>>
>> But quite a lot of the other printed material with it on the listing
>> says 160-A.  Perhaps it got field upgraded, if such was done for that
>> machine.
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> 
> 
> Comparing the 160 and 160-A manuals with the 160 in the ebay auction
> (252070822992)
> 
> Page 37 of the 160 manual from 1960 -  smaller "160" marquee sign.
> Page 3-1 of the 160-A marquee says "CONTROL DATA 160-A"
> Ebay auction says "CONTROL DATA 160"
> 
> So, there were two variations of the 160 marquee/sign above the numeric
> display.
> 
> ----
> 
> Also, if a person is looking at the front of the computer, on the top left
> side, there is a square cut-out / slot? in the original 160 table
> (purpose?).  This slot does not appear on the 160-A's table (from the 1963
> programming manual), nor is it present on the Ebay auction.
> 
> I am thinking this was originally a "later" 160 that was probably serviced
> well into the 160-A days.
> 

No doubt *originally* a 160, per the marquee.  But, as I suggested,
perhaps field upgraded.  Otherwise, why have what appear to be 160-A
drawings with it?

JRJ

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Wed Sep  9 11:31:00 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 09:31:00 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <6D63CB9BB2A84E18BC6AE914F7840304@RosemarysPC>

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay

I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no 
return jump for you...

--Chuck

Which would make it even more scarce.  There were only a little over a 100 of the 160 models made.  And 40+ of them were rebranded as NCR machines.

There were 495 160-As made officially.  (There were also a small number shipped without serial numbers to the good people at Langley.)

I know of at least 5x 160-As still in existence, besides my own.  Which should be going to a museum this week if they can sort out shipping glitches.  My system includes a 161-A Typewriter in lousy shape and a 167-2 Card Reader in perfect shape.  Plus all manuals, software (with listings) and spare parts.  Even the paper tape rewinder!

I did not know any 160 machines survived, so who ever bought it has a unique item.

I have looked for 15 years for an 8092 = the first true 8 bit computer. Haven't found even a hint or rumor of one.

I am working with Al Kossow, to see that this material is eventually in his archives.

Billy Pettit


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 11:33:13 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:33:13 -0400
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <55F05E7D.6050600@charter.net>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F05E7D.6050600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufzRiA29Cf5hAL1f=R245yS3yzNWR+biXCR7u5CL58Jzw@mail.gmail.com>

No, I am saying the marquee itself is more like the 160-A than the original
160's.  It's missing the "dash A" but otherwise identical in footprint.
What gives it away as an original 160 are the fewer controls below the
numeric display compared with the 160-A.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/9/2015 11:03 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/8/2015 9:35 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
> >>
> >>> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay
> >>>
> >>> I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A.  So no
> >>> return jump for you...
> >>>
> >>> --Chuck
> >>>
> >>
> >> But quite a lot of the other printed material with it on the listing
> >> says 160-A.  Perhaps it got field upgraded, if such was done for that
> >> machine.
> >>
> >> JRJ
> >>
> >
> >
> > Comparing the 160 and 160-A manuals with the 160 in the ebay auction
> > (252070822992)
> >
> > Page 37 of the 160 manual from 1960 -  smaller "160" marquee sign.
> > Page 3-1 of the 160-A marquee says "CONTROL DATA 160-A"
> > Ebay auction says "CONTROL DATA 160"
> >
> > So, there were two variations of the 160 marquee/sign above the numeric
> > display.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Also, if a person is looking at the front of the computer, on the top
> left
> > side, there is a square cut-out / slot? in the original 160 table
> > (purpose?).  This slot does not appear on the 160-A's table (from the
> 1963
> > programming manual), nor is it present on the Ebay auction.
> >
> > I am thinking this was originally a "later" 160 that was probably
> serviced
> > well into the 160-A days.
> >
>
> No doubt *originally* a 160, per the marquee.  But, as I suggested,
> perhaps field upgraded.  Otherwise, why have what appear to be 160-A
> drawings with it?
>
> JRJ
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Sep  9 11:38:23 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:38:23 +0200
Subject: Formatter for the EMULEX QD01 ST506 Controller?
Message-ID: <20150909163823.GA77462@beast.freibergnet.de>


..the Subject says all.. I'm looking for the Formater Utility
for an Emulx QD01  ..preferably for the PDP11/RT11.

The Manual
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/emulex/QD0151001-C-QD01_DiskController_TechManual_AUG85.pdf

lists the Part Numbers for the Software as PX995180x-0y where x is 1 or 2
and y is between 1-4, dependig of the distribution tapei media. A RX50 Floppy
with the PN VX9951804 should exist too..


Has someone images from that software handy?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 12:00:52 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:00:52 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>

Speaking of Control Data:

I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data 
Display Controller (OSG 1253/1255), each populated 
with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're Fairchild with 
(house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and 
what I assume to be date codes (all 3 digits, 
7xx), e.g. F 115 728.

Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after 
cutting off the gold fingers of course ;-) ?

m 


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Sep  9 12:08:11 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:08:11 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
Message-ID: <246FB4BF-F5BD-4F4D-AE4A-1A9532AD10D4@comcast.net>


> On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Speaking of Control Data:
> 
> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data Display Controller (OSG 1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're Fairchild with (house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and what I assume to be date codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
> 
> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after cutting off the gold fingers of course ;-) ?

I don't recognize 115 etc. as IC part numbers, but 728 or similar 7xx numbers sounds familiar for the old RTL ICs that Fairchild produced in TO-5 cans.

I don't suppose there's a whole lot of demand for that family, but then again I also suppose there aren't a lot available.

	paul



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Wed Sep  9 12:26:52 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:26:52 -0500
Subject: Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel
Message-ID: <33B0A0BD1CC444EEA25E786AE856EE4B@CharlesHPLaptop>

>Not sure what you mean by membrane keypad. My front panels certainly
>have real buttons, which makes a clicking noise and feeling when I press
>them. But maybe I'm confused and there is some membrane behind the keys
>or something?
>
>Johnny

That's my mistake. I've never actually seen or touched a DKC8-AA panel, just 
pictures of them in the manual :)
Hoping to acquire one since I am trying to do other things with the 8/A than 
keep debugging its hardware! (such as getting Dumprest working for RL02).

>The 74f parts may be too fast. Try adding damping resistors (10 to 30 ohms) 
>in series with the outputs to slow things down or just switch to 74ls
>
>Joe

Thanks for the tip. That is what I was implying, not sure I said so 
explicitly :)
But adding twelve resistors which may or may not fix the problem, and 
hacking up my board is not an attractive thought... but neither is changing 
three 20-pin unsocketed DIPs without proper desoldering equipment. Guess I 
should have used sockets in a prototype!
Besides, the board really does need redoing with proper power and ground 
plane management.

-Charles


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 12:58:42 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:58:42 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <246FB4BF-F5BD-4F4D-AE4A-1A9532AD10D4@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <FA4EE6552CC744F0A5CE0D9E79550B29@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards



> On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein 
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Speaking of Control Data:
>
> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data 
> Display Controller (OSG 1253/1255), each 
> populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're 
> Fairchild with (house?) numbers such as 115, 
> 116, 117, 118 and what I assume to be date codes 
> (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
>
> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after 
> cutting off the gold fingers of course ;-) ?

I don't recognize 115 etc. as IC part numbers, but 
728 or similar 7xx numbers sounds familiar for the 
old RTL ICs that Fairchild produced in TO-5 cans.

I don't suppose there's a whole lot of demand for 
that family, but then again I also suppose there 
aren't a lot available.

paul

----- Reply -----

Yeah, RTL would be my guess considering the 
package and the time frame (67/68), but AFAIK 
Fairchild and Motorola used 700 and 900 (later 
9000) numbers and these have 10 pins instead of 
the usual 8 pins (although power is similarly 
connected diagonally, i.e pins 5 and 10). Also odd 
that the numbers are consecutive.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention them in case 
someone has one of these displays or can use the 
ICs.

m


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Sep  9 14:32:51 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:32:51 -0700
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <FA4EE6552CC744F0A5CE0D9E79550B29@310e2>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <246FB4BF-F5BD-4F4D-AE4A-1A9532AD10D4@comcast.net>
 <FA4EE6552CC744F0A5CE0D9E79550B29@310e2>
Message-ID: <46468B0A-1BA5-4095-B752-38AE44D2D048@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2015-Sep-09, at 10:58 AM, Mike Stein wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 9, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Speaking of Control Data:
>> 
>> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data Display Controller (OSG 1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're Fairchild with (house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and what I assume to be date codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
>> 
>> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after cutting off the gold fingers of course ;-) ?
> 
> I don't recognize 115 etc. as IC part numbers, but 728 or similar 7xx numbers sounds familiar for the old RTL ICs that Fairchild produced in TO-5 cans.
> 
> I don't suppose there's a whole lot of demand for that family, but then again I also suppose there aren't a lot available.
> 
> paul
> 
> ----- Reply -----
> 
> Yeah, RTL would be my guess considering the package and the time frame (67/68), but AFAIK Fairchild and Motorola used 700 and 900 (later 9000) numbers and these have 10 pins instead of the usual 8 pins (although power is similarly connected diagonally, i.e pins 5 and 10). Also odd that the numbers are consecutive.
> 
> Anyway, just thought I'd mention them in case someone has one of these displays or can use the ICs.



There were at least 3 types in Fairchild's standard RTL series in 10-pin cans:
	9915 - dual 3-in inverting gate
	9926 - JK FF
	9927 - quad inverter
which would cover logic requirements if the designer were attempting to keep type diversity down.

A lot of Fairchild's standard DTL series was also available in 10-pin cans.


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep  9 15:20:51 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:20:51 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJ-BYixV9pDxVw-U72DH1NKnGuj3vELAOid4ovttQQGDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ-BYixV9pDxVw-U72DH1NKnGuj3vELAOid4ovttQQGDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F094A3.9080201@charter.net>

On 9/8/2015 9:38 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
>> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
>> programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
>> I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison.
> 
> You can currently buy a BP Microsystems CP-1128 for $38.50 shipped on eBay:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181853494660
> 

Anybody know if the CP-1128 supports any of the older EProms (2708, 2716
or 1702)?  I couldn't find a device list online.

JRJ

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Wed Sep  9 15:26:13 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:26:13 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <8DD5946777634030AAE7559D7FFA7C43@RosemarysPC>

William Degan wrote:

Comparing the 160 and 160-A manuals with the 160 in the ebay auction
(252070822992)

Page 37 of the 160 manual from 1960 -  smaller "160" marquee sign.
Page 3-1 of the 160-A marquee says "CONTROL DATA 160-A"
Ebay auction says "CONTROL DATA 160"

So, there were two variations of the 160 marquee/sign above the numeric
display.

----

Also, if a person is looking at the front of the computer, on the top left
side, there is a square cut-out / slot? in the original 160 table
(purpose?).  This slot does not appear on the 160-A's table (from the 1963
programming manual), nor is it present on the Ebay auction.

I am thinking this was originally a "later" 160 that was probably serviced
well into the 160-A days.

-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

Only a few 160s used the 3 small inserts in the marquee.  There were used to make it easier for the NCR rebrand.  The later solid sign became the CDC standard.  

The cut out on the left was for the BPRE-11 punch.  Only the early 160's and early 1604 machines had this.  The punch table was spring loaded and could be raised up to the desk top to reload paper tape.  Later on, the punch was mounted on a tray that slid out to the front.

Another change was the replacment of the original paper tape reader with the PED 350.  PED (Peripheral Equipment Division) was a CDC created company.  Their first product was the 350 reader.  Later, they made the 60X series of tape units and the 405 card reader.  This was all part of CDC's effort to move away from other companys' peripherals.  The early CDC systems shipped with Ampex tape units, IBM card equipment.

The original paper tape reader was an inport from Ferranti in England.  It was fascinating; used thyratrons as light sensors.  I had one, but it disappeared in the last move.  You can tell it from the 350 by the paper tape load arm.  On the Ferranti, it is a steel rod.  On the PED 350, it is a flattened V shaped plastic arm.

Another way to tell early 160s from later units is the side drops.  On the early units, the top formica also went down the left and right side about 12 inches.  This stopped mid-life.  Old memoriy says at s/n 43 but after 55 years, that is not hard data.

The early 1604's also had this side drop of the desk top.  You can see it in some early photographs.  I did see one 161 typewriter stand with the side drop, but don't remember if it went into production.

NO 160s were ever converted to 160-As.  Not one.  There are physical differences in the logic chassis.  More cards slots were needed.  The extra 4K bank of memory takes up a lot card space.  The front panel would have to be totally replaced.  The 160-A requires a lot more cable ports for the Buffer channel and the external memory (169).

160-A manuals would be useless for a 160.  The card types are the same and about half the commands are the same.  But that is it.

By the way, bitsavers has an excellent description of the 160 in "System Programs For The 160 Computer". It includes a photograph showing the above differences.  And pages 1 - 10 present good insight to Seymour Cray's thinking about his next machine, the 6600.  It shows where the idea for the PPUs came from.

The obsolete 160s were in use for many years after their demise.  Usually for testing peripherals, copying paper tapes, etc.  I last worked on one in 1980, almost twenty years after it was built.

Billy Pettit



From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 15:41:47 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:41:47 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
Message-ID: <0a7901d0eb3f$f3003b10$d900b130$@gmail.com>

Absolutely (assuming you count your engineering time as free), not to
mention it feels rewarding to use clever engineering tricks to solve a
problem instead of money. But I want to keep my machine original and vintage
if I reasonably can. My programmer ended up very reasonably priced, and it
is recognized as one of the better vintage programmers of that era. So it
fits perfectly in my collection of higher end, historically meaningful
engineering tools. Two birds with one stone, so it was a pretty easy
decision. 
Marc

>Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>:
>The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year >old PROM
programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
>I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison. For the cost of the
29B, you could design a replacement for the original >PROM, have some boards
fabricated, stuff them and you'd still be ahead a few hundred bucks ...
>starts to make sense at those kind of prices, imo.
>Best,
>Sean


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  9 18:46:37 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:46:37 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>


Sean wrote...
------
 my bench is all Racal, Tek, HP, Fluke, etc and the 
------
You must be one of those high net worth folks you mentioned in your previous post, I'm jealous of that kind of bench gear!

I'm not saying the CP-1128 isn't a great value. Of course it's a good solution! I am merely saying the Data I/O 29B currently and has been a good value (in response to your post saying it was "too expensive for 30+ year old gear"). But since it was brought up, here's some things to consider....

The Data I/O 29B is specifically sought out by arcade enthusiasts (and many vintage computer collectors that I know) because it supports an unusually wide array of vintage chips, most that we're likely to come across. Why is that important, if the CP-1128 does - as glen points out - program a subset of the needed (for this specific case) chips?

Answer from past experience.... There may be a dozen chips that will work for the HP 1K loader roms. What I have found over the past many years is that the supply ebbs and flows. Good example - for about a year, MMI 6301's were unobtainium. All the suppliers I could find were all pushing the Harris 7611's, because they couldn't get the 6301's either. Then a year later, apparently a batch of fuji 7114's were found and those were available, because suppliers couldn't find any more 7611's (at the time). Now I'm finding the MMI 6301's again. Yes, these chips are all compatible once programmed, but some programmers will do one and not the other. This "ebb and flow" in supply may occur right at the least convenient time, like when your 2000/Access IOP firmware chips die (me, about two months ago). If your programmer supports the widest possible selection of chips, even post-programmed compatibles, you're in a better spot. If not, a post-programmed compatible chip may well be available, but your programmer doesn't support it. Not a great spot.

My 29B will also do a lot more different types of devices than usual, thanks to the plethora of other adapters (not just unipak 2B) that came with mine. 

Another good example - the CP-1128 appears to require a usb attached computer to function. While I usually connect my 29B to a computer to program (via serial), there are a few occasions when I've been exceedingly glad that it can be fully operated from the built in control panel without having to have a computer to run it.

Another example - Some manufacturers, over time, drop support for very early devices. That can't happen with the 29B ;) It sure can and does happen with current devices being manufactured.

There's a downside of course... just try finding replacement parts for a 29b ;) Fortunately, schematics exist.

Long story short, as I said before, there's a reason that programmer still holds a high value. For some people, those reasons are worth it. For others, they are not. Is the 29B "the best" programmer? Probably not, as "best" is both situational and subjective. I'm willing to allocate portions of my precious small bench gear budget for the above reasons. But several folks asked at the same time for advice on 21MX M/E/F proms and programmers, and that post was my advice. There are certainly other great programmers out there.

Best,

J



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  9 19:17:45 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:17:45 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request)
In-Reply-To: <0a7901d0eb3f$f3003b10$d900b130$@gmail.com>
References: <0a7901d0eb3f$f3003b10$d900b130$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801d0eb5e$1e946800$5bbd3800$@classiccmp.org>

Marc wrote....
----
But I want to keep my machine original and vintage if I reasonably can. My
programmer [snip] fits perfectly in my collection of higher end,
historically meaningful engineering tools. 
----
Agreed. I was the same way when selecting a logic analyzer. Given my
penchant for a certain period of HP gear, I got a 1631D. Sure, there are
probably lots better LA's out there. But it was an HP of the right period
and fully capable for what I needed :)

J



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 19:36:20 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 17:36:20 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <55F094A3.9080201@charter.net>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ-BYixV9pDxVw-U72DH1NKnGuj3vELAOid4ovttQQGDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F094A3.9080201@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJvYfw9qOXO4CHvfOyMyF4MVbgNQTBtoUzv1t+2qs7XzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Anybody know if the CP-1128 supports any of the older EProms (2708, 2716
> or 1702)?  I couldn't find a device list online.
>
> JRJ

As far as I know no BP Microsystems programmers supported 1702 or 2708 EPROMs.

The last version of the programming software which supported the
CP-1128 was BPSoft-03 (DOS) or BPWSoft-03 (Windows) released in
October 2003. You can still download those legacy versions. You have
to register a user id and password first, which is free, but annoying.
You can search for supported devices when you run the software in demo
mode without a programmer connected.

The CP-1128 supports a variety of 2716 parts. I would paste the
supported list here but the device chooser in the software doesn't
allow a text copy of the selection list. I could paste it as a screen
capture in direct email off list for 2716 parts if you're curious.

-Glen

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 19:50:33 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 17:50:33 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Another good example - the CP-1128 appears to require a usb attached computer to function.

Just in case anyone is looking at BP Microsystems programmers:

As far as I know only their first programmer the EP-1 had a RS-232
interface. After that they all had an LPT interface (PLD-1100,
PLD-1128, EP-1132, EP-1140, CP-1128, BP-1148, BP-1200, BP-1400,
BP-1600, BP-1700) until they switched to a USB interface (BP-1410,
BP-1610, BP-1710).

The last software update for the LPT interface BP-1200 and BP-1400 was
in 2008 and for the BP-1600 and BP-1700 was in 2013. Only the USB
interface models are supported by current software updates. I got a
USB interface BP-1410 on eBay a year or so ago but I almost never see
the USB interface models there.

-Glen

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep  9 19:57:22 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:57:22 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>


Glen wrote...
----
Just in case anyone is looking at BP Microsystems programmers:
----
I'm looking - heck, at that price, a good backup/insurance policy!

Would love to see a full device list....

J



From jan at work.de  Thu Sep 10 03:46:15 2015
From: jan at work.de (Jan Diegelmann)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:46:15 +0200
Subject: Wyse 370
Message-ID: <55F14357.3080906@work.de>

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

From diegel at work.de  Thu Sep 10 04:43:30 2015
From: diegel at work.de (Jan Diegelmann)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:43:30 +0200
Subject: Wyse 370
Message-ID: <55F150C2.2070904@work.de>

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 06:19:58 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:19:58 -0400
Subject: Wyse 370
References: <55F150C2.2070904@work.de>
Message-ID: <F18C781532CA450DB659DEE254D54E11@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jan Diegelmann" <diegel at work.de>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:43 AM
Subject: Wyse 370


> for both serial ports I can configure a terminal 
> session at my Wyse 370 ASCII terminal. But I 
> don't have any idea how to switch between 
> sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find 
> a manual for this terminal?
--------
Have you tried CTL/Break? 


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 09:03:53 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:03:53 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>

I would be surprised if it did 1702s and 2708s. Even 2716s have
a slightly different hardware configuration.
1702s require voltages like 50 volts ( I could be a little off ) and
changing address and data lines over wide voltage ranges.
2708s require multiple rail voltages as well as programming voltages.
2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
on and off.
All the newer chips have a constant programming voltage and
a separate program logic level pin. They can even be read while
the programming voltage is high.
I doubt any would make the special provisions for 1702s. 2708s
are a stretch but if your not doing 2716s it won't be able to
handle 2708 even if it had the extra rail voltages. 
I have a DataIO ( I think a 29B ) and I know it doesn't do 1702s.
In any case, I don't think any of these would be fast enough for
a 21MX boot code. I think these expect it to be faster than 100ns.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 09:14:53 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:14:53 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W111BC9CFCC4F786507BC1BBA3510@phx.gbl>

Anyone interested in doing 1702As should look at the schematic
in the MCS4 user manual on bitsavers.org
There is a schematic for a MP7-03 board. It can be easily controlled
from an Arduino or raspberry pi. There are a few oneshots but those
can easily be replaced by software. You mainly need the level converters.
Dwight

 
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:03:53 -0700




I would be surprised if it did 1702s and 2708s. Even 2716s have
a slightly different hardware configuration.
1702s require voltages like 50 volts ( I could be a little off ) and
changing address and data lines over wide voltage ranges.
2708s require multiple rail voltages as well as programming voltages.
2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
on and off.
All the newer chips have a constant programming voltage and
a separate program logic level pin. They can even be read while
the programming voltage is high.
I doubt any would make the special provisions for 1702s. 2708s
are a stretch but if your not doing 2716s it won't be able to
handle 2708 even if it had the extra rail voltages. 
I have a DataIO ( I think a 29B ) and I know it doesn't do 1702s.
In any case, I don't think any of these would be fast enough for
a 21MX boot code. I think these expect it to be faster than 100ns.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		   		 	   		  

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 10 09:14:44 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:14:44 +0000
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> on and off.

I must be mis-remembering how I designed my first EPROM programmer. I 
know I could do 2716s (single-rail, not the TI ones) and I thought I always 
applied Vpp and pulsed another pin at TTL levels to program them

IIRC the 27128 was the last one to actually allow the 'dumb' 50ms
programming algorithm. It may well work on larger chips, but 
I never tried it.  That's why I designed my programmer to do
2716s, 2732s, 2764s and 27128s only. Not having another 
programmer I couldn't use a microprocessor or microcontroller
(no way to load the firmware) so I had to do it all in TTL logic. 
Doing the 'intellegent' algorithm in TTL was a bit much ;-)

-tony

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 09:39:15 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:39:15 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
Message-ID: <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>

Can we see some pictures?

--
Will

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Control Data:
>
> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data Display Controller (OSG
> 1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're Fairchild with
> (house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and what I assume to be date
> codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
>
> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after cutting off the gold fingers
> of course ;-) ?
>
> m

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 11:23:21 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:23:21 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2>

Not very interesting

Haven't used Picasa in years; hope this works:

https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/CDCCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCLjPy9Diu7fwsgE

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards


> Can we see some pictures?
>
> --
> Will
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein 
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Speaking of Control Data:
>>
>> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control 
>> Data Display Controller (OSG
>> 1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 
>> ICs; they're Fairchild with
>> (house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and 
>> what I assume to be date
>> codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
>>
>> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after 
>> cutting off the gold fingers
>> of course ;-) ?
>>
>> m 


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Sep 10 11:41:15 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:41:15 +0200
Subject: KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?
Message-ID: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>

..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.

Resorc /A give the following informations:

.resorc /a

RT-11XB (S) V05.07  

Booted from DL0:RT11XB
Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
USR is set NOSWAP
TT is set NOQUIET
Indirect file abort level is ERROR
Indirect file nesting depth is 3

PDT 11/150 Processor
FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
KT11 Memory Management Unit
Cache Memory
50 Cycle System Clock

Device I/O time-out support
Multi-terminal support

Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?
Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.

For an M8186 the output is more that what I've expected:

.resorc /a

RT-11XB (S) V05.07  

Booted from DL0:RT11XB
Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
USR is set NOSWAP
TT is set NOQUIET
Indirect file abort level is ERROR
Indirect file nesting depth is 3

PDP 11/23 Processor
FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
KT11 Memory Management Unit
50 Cycle System Clock

Device I/O time-out support
Multi-terminal support

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 10 11:49:58 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:49:58 -0400
Subject: KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?
In-Reply-To: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <C1E03A7A-09C3-4F67-8750-D43E3BC193C3@comcast.net>


> On Sep 10, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> 
> ..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
> a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.
> 
> Resorc /A give the following informations:
> 
> ...
> PDT 11/150 Processor
> FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
> ...
> Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?

I wonder what it looks for to produce that.

> Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.

J-11 always has float support.  Without the float chip, it's in CPU microcode; with it, that chip offloads the float and it goes faster.

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 10 12:18:50 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:18:50 -0700
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2>
Message-ID: <55F1BB7A.90508@bitsavers.org>

On 9/10/15 9:23 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
> Not very interesting
>

backside is all-telling.
DD12092 is the part number. DD == "Data Display"
the display division of CDC

they are the form factor that DD used. I picked up a 3291-B display
controller manual from Billy Pettit yesteray, and is uses discrete
cards in the same shape.

cans are Fairchild, circa 72/73





From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 10 12:29:08 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:29:08 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W111BC9CFCC4F786507BC1BBA3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>
 <BLU168-W111BC9CFCC4F786507BC1BBA3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55F1BDE4.8000703@bitsavers.org>

On 9/10/15 7:14 AM, dwight wrote:
> Anyone interested in doing 1702As should look at the schematic
> in the MCS4 user manual on bitsavers.org
>

or just buy a ME1702A from Martin Eberhard




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 12:44:00 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:44:00 -0400
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkS5iFyzjF5T3C9coizt6H+y-bs5ia=_JPoct4nt8xp8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch
> <JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
>> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)?
>
> I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results...

I checked the box.  The non-DEC manual I thought was Emulex was really
a Codex 9600 baud modem manual.

Now that I think back, ISTR our Emulex manuals were in grey soft-cover
3-ring binders.  I don't recall seeing them after the company closed
shop in 1993.

-ethan

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 13:19:54 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:19:54 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>



> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:14:44 +0000
> 
> > 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> > on and off.
> 
> I must be mis-remembering how I designed my first EPROM programmer. I 
> know I could do 2716s (single-rail, not the TI ones) and I thought I always 
> applied Vpp and pulsed another pin at TTL levels to program them
> 
> IIRC the 27128 was the last one to actually allow the 'dumb' 50ms
> programming algorithm. It may well work on larger chips, but 
> I never tried it.  That's why I designed my programmer to do
> 2716s, 2732s, 2764s and 27128s only. Not having another 
> programmer I couldn't use a microprocessor or microcontroller
> (no way to load the firmware) so I had to do it all in TTL logic. 
> Doing the 'intellegent' algorithm in TTL was a bit much ;-)
> 
> -tony

Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a single rail, just that it
didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was programmed by turning
Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s were that way as well.
The TI 2716s were not so friendly.
Intel sold half bad 2716s for 5 volt 2508s. Even after 2716s price dropped,
they still sold 2708s for $32 when you could buy a 2716 for $3 to $4.
Dwight

 		 	   		  

From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 10 13:20:01 2015
From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:20:01 +0000
Subject: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkS5iFyzjF5T3C9coizt6H+y-bs5ia=_JPoct4nt8xp8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629901E9A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAALmimnpjtatQwLW0uM9i1yt8Et1gJfAK_EYVOdGxsnnHihuZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkS5iFyzjF5T3C9coizt6H+y-bs5ia=_JPoct4nt8xp8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E81062990318A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 10:44 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch 
> > <JoshD at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> >> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)?
> >
> > I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results...

> I checked the box.  The non-DEC manual I thought was Emulex was really a Codex 9600 baud modem manual.

> Now that I think back, ISTR our Emulex manuals were in grey soft-cover 3-ring binders.  I don't recall seeing them after the company closed 
 shop in 1993.

> -ethan

Bummer.  Thanks a ton for looking!  If anyone else has any leads, let me know...

Thanks again,
Josh

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 10 13:29:31 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:29:31 +0000
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E8E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a single rail, just that it
> didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was programmed by turning
> Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s were that way as well.

The data sheet for the SGS-Thomson 2716 here : 

http://ee-classes.usc.edu/ee459/library/datasheets/2716.pdf

says that you apply Vpp and keep it applied, set up address and data (with G/, pin 20, more
commonly called output enable, high and E/P low) and then program each location by taking the E/P pin
(Pin 18, more commonly called chip enable) high for 50ms. 

That is what I remember doing. You didn't have to pulse Vpp.

-tony

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 13:50:46 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:50:46 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E8E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <05A68434A8954C639565A4CC8524ADD5@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tony duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request


>
> Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a 
> single rail, just that it
> didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was 
> programmed by turning
> Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s 
> were that way as well.

The data sheet for the SGS-Thomson 2716 here :

http://ee-classes.usc.edu/ee459/library/datasheets/2716.pdf

says that you apply Vpp and keep it applied, set 
up address and data (with G/, pin 20, more
commonly called output enable, high and E/P low) 
and then program each location by taking the E/P 
pin
(Pin 18, more commonly called chip enable) high 
for 50ms.

That is what I remember doing. You didn't have to 
pulse Vpp.

-tony
=

----- Reply -----

Yup; I still have a 2716 programmer I cobbled 
together for my PET and it just has a manual DIP 
switch (and LED) to turn Vpp on/off.before and 
after programming. To be sure, there were 
different versions but none pulsed Vpp AFAIK.

m 


From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com  Thu Sep 10 06:33:07 2015
From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt))
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 05:33:07 -0600
Subject: Wyse 370
References: <55F14357.3080906@work.de>
Message-ID: <CD02ECB723E441029C4D0108F8511C1E@RANGER1>

Not sure about 370, but I've found a WY-60 User Guide here:

http://www.vt100.net/wyse/wy-60-ug/

Keven Miller


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jan Diegelmann 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 02:46 AM
Subject: Wyse 370


for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 06:38:15 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:38:15 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
Message-ID: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>

Hi All,

just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A 
hollerith punchcard.

https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

enjoy
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 10 07:52:58 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 05:52:58 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>

On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
> hollerith punchcard.
>
> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>
> enjoy

they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 10 08:47:51 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 09:47:51 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <7E8773D0-3E06-4F4F-84F8-A3D59E152922@comcast.net>


> On Sep 10, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> 
> On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
>> hollerith punchcard.
>> 
>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>> 
>> enjoy
> 
> they are PUNCHED cards
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Not unless you use the Dutch term and translate literally to English...

	paul



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 09:42:59 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509100729350.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
> they are PUNCHED cards
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Half a century ago, there were already some people who got it wrong.

I had a boss who insisted that blanks in the box were "PUNCH CARDS",
that it wasn't until they got used that they became "PUNCHED CARDS".
He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
with were "COLOUR PENCILS".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com




From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 10:16:56 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:16:56 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509100729350.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509100729350.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGjZKUXo-pE3TQHWQ=sysnvdppsAEXCtnEa=q_7U3m1Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
> with were "COLOUR PENCILS".

Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the
proper, old-fashioned-way. ;?)


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From leec2124 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 10:22:29 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 08:22:29 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>

punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
> punchcard.
>
> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>
> enjoy
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>



-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 10:40:29 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 10:40:29 -0500
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
	<55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUy=F7xT_-jqGG+MR62eQF7mao9FU2BeNMzGyYxisdEpNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards


Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"

Second to last page:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT_1000_Brochure_May70.pdf
"punch card reading and handling"

3rd page in PDF:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contribLibrDoc_Vol1_Aug76.pdf
"Punch card equipment test"

Section 5.3:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_Description_Jan58.pdf
"On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"

Page 23-5:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_OperatorsGde_Dec87.pdf
"different punch card decoding conventions"

While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
aforementioned capitalized generalizations.

Kyle

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 10:54:45 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:54:45 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>

Hi Lee.

Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)

I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite 
are two completely different things.

btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and 
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one 
box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in 
the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I 
made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type 
of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)

Simon from hack42.nl

On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:
> punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.
>
> Lee C.
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
>> punchcard.
>>
>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>>
>> enjoy
>> --
>> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>>
>> Simon Claessen
>> drukknop.nl
>>
>
>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 10:56:16 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:56:16 +0200
Subject: DEC 8235 IC? (repost)
In-Reply-To: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>
References: <55ED5482.5060009@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55F1A820.8060802@dds.nl>

To answer my own question, DEC 82xx type IC's are actually Signetics 
N82xx IC's.


On 07-09-15 11:10, simon wrote:
> As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it
> here. please don't be offended by this.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all.
>
> is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?
>
> I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and plugged in
> the ribbon cable connecting connector C and D the wrong way. some magic
> smoke came loose and there are a few chips broken .
>
> by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect
> chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v...
>
> The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but
> other boards could well be affected.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 11:00:10 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:00:10 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>

> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
> As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
> can be reproduced. :-)

If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

--
Will

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 10 11:08:52 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:08:52 +0000
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density? 
Impregnated with something? 

-tony

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 11:21:52 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:21:52 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028d01d0ebe4$cebf9fc0$6c3edf40$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William
> Donzelli
> Sent: 10 September 2015 17:00
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> > btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
> > are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and
> > one box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards
> > stay in the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
> made this file.
> > As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the
> > cards can be reproduced. :-)
> 
> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone know
> about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made again. It is a
> specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
> 
> --
> Will

I have been looking in the UK and getting near that thickness is hard. I havn't been able to get my reader working yet...

Dave
G4UGM


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep 10 11:26:00 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:26:00 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <20150910162559.GA27909@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 05:54:45PM +0200, Simon Claessen wrote:
>
> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten
>

The correct term is of course "h?lkort" (hole cards)

An unused stack went cheap on swedish ebay recently... perhaps I 
should have bought them.

/P

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 10 11:33:22 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 09:33:22 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55F1B0D2.2070205@bitsavers.org>

On 9/10/15 8:54 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:
> Being right and being polite are two completely different things.
>

And no one has ever accused me of being polite.




From leec2124 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 11:36:51 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 09:36:51 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1B0D2.2070205@bitsavers.org>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl> <55F1B0D2.2070205@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVGs3krQbX=vuwFJ8CGsYByis8bUJwqS8q7wGecv+VReqA@mail.gmail.com>

Al - we accept that you are a CLI in a world of GUIs! :-)

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 9/10/15 8:54 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:
>
>> Being right and being polite are two completely different things.
>>
>>
> And no one has ever accused me of being polite.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 11:53:39 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:53:39 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55F1B593.6010302@dds.nl>

A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters. the 
c cedille should actually be a cent char.

I fixed it.

Simon


On 10-09-15 17:54, Simon Claessen wrote:
> Hi Lee.
>
> Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)
>
> I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite
> are two completely different things.
>
> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
> are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one
> box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in
> the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
> made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type
> of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)
>
> Simon from hack42.nl
>
> On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:
>> punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> Lee C.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
>>> hollerith
>>> punchcard.
>>>
>>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>>>
>>> enjoy
>>> --
>>> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>>>
>>> Simon Claessen
>>> drukknop.nl
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 11:56:25 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:56:25 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>

Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as 
you would expect from the toughness.

On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
>
>
>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>
> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
> Impregnated with something?
>
> -tony
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 10 12:35:33 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:35:33 +0000
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD0275@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Al Kossow
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:53 AM

> On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:

>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

> they are PUNCHED cards
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Al,

I have to disagree with you, based on 46 years of working with the damned
things.  Usage trumps prescriptivism in the form of documentation:  Even
the keypunch operators of my youth called them "punch cards".

                                                                Best regards,
                                                                Your friend
                                                                     Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 13:01:35 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:01:35 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1B593.6010302@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl> <55F1B593.6010302@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55F1C57F.1070300@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 09:53 AM, simon wrote:
> A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters.
> the c cedille should actually be a cent char.

So, EBCDIC.  How about a few of the other character sets in use at the time?

That might be interesting.

--Chuck

From simski at dds.nl  Thu Sep 10 13:28:59 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:28:59 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1C57F.1070300@sydex.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl> <55F1B593.6010302@dds.nl>
 <55F1C57F.1070300@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55F1CBEB.7080800@dds.nl>

Go ahead. this drawing is published as creative commons and the svg is 
in parts.

the text and holes is a separate layer. I even included a layer with all 
holes, so just make the right holes white and there you are. The text 
above is another thing though. the characters are als separate drawings, 
but I foud out that the dots are not separate. oh well, not a big issue. 
Use the grid.


btw, I work in Inkscape. not the best program around, but it does the job.

Simon

On 10-09-15 20:01, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/10/2015 09:53 AM, simon wrote:
>> A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters.
>> the c cedille should actually be a cent char.
>
> So, EBCDIC.  How about a few of the other character sets in use at the
> time?
>
> That might be interesting.
>
> --Chuck
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Sep 10 13:40:00 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:40:00 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:56 PM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:

> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you
> would expect from the toughness.
>
>
> On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>>>
>>
>> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
>> Impregnated with something?
>>
>> -tony
>>
>>
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 13:47:16 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>

>>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
>> Impregnated with something?

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you 
> would expect from the toughness.

Also, had to have the right friction to slide through, but catch on the 
rollers.   CDC's optical card readers came later, and made dramatic 
improvements in DP.

In those days, the cardstock was extremely available, in large sheets and 
in precut blanks, in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded who would 
do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed them.


And yet, some card readers were amazingly tolerant!

For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch of projects, such as the 
National Driver's Test (1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software. 
They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards, which were 80 column cards 
with every other column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody could 
take a special stylus or a random pencil and create their own hanging 
chips/"Chads".  But, how to recollect them?  They actually had people 
stick a stamp on them and MAIL them! ("Business Reply Mail" would have 
shifted the franking burden, otherwise it would have made MUCH more sense) 
They then successfully ran them through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in 
mind that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE standing next to the 
reader, clearing jams in real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified 
the input maw?

So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it worked with a postage 
stamp stuck to it?

Although the hardware reliability was a welcome surprise (I wonder how my 
life would have gone if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live 
statistics weren't adding up close enough to 100%! On camera, Walter 
Cronkite was stalling, and right behind him, my father was frantically 
manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week later, there were a copy of 
McCracken FORTRAN and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee table.
Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we learned a little FORTRAN.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 13:50:02 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101148370.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Sean Caron wrote:
> I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
> stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
> but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
> cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
> running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
> applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
> cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.

It will go through the [almost] straight optional paper path of laser 
printers and inkjets.  (Not the S curves)

From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Sep 10 11:26:56 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 09:26:56 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F1AF50.9040704@jwsss.com>



On 9/10/2015 9:00 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
>> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
>> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
>> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
>> As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
>> can be reproduced. :-)
> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>
> --
> Will
General Credit Forms in St Louis had it and the patterns and my friend 
Al Weber had cards made when he worked there.  The problem with making 
more was the feasibility of setting their lines up to run the card, and 
at the time the paper was no problem (into the 90's).

I'll check with him and see if he knows of any problem getting the paper.

GCF makes the NCR snap forms for credit cards, and owns the patents to 
that technology.  So making the cards were not a problem for them as 
their line was nearly set up exactly for that already.

thanks
Jim

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 14:06:01 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:06:01 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGjZKUXo-pE3TQHWQ=sysnvdppsAEXCtnEa=q_7U3m1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509100729350.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCGjZKUXo-pE3TQHWQ=sysnvdppsAEXCtnEa=q_7U3m1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01d0ebfb$bc251590$346f40b0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs with
> > were "COLOUR PENCILS".
> 
> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper, old-
> fashioned-way. ;?)
> 

I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in English. It was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an attempt to "Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up" English and Webster

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/05/america-drop-u-british-spellings/

who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today....

> 
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 14:07:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:07:46 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUy=F7xT_-jqGG+MR62eQF7mao9FU2BeNMzGyYxisdEpNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
 <CAKtEYUy=F7xT_-jqGG+MR62eQF7mao9FU2BeNMzGyYxisdEpNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F1D502.7070903@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 08:40 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> look at ALL of the documentation of the period NO ONE called them
>> PUNCH cards
>
>
> Section 7:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
>"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"

One popular term for them was "IBM Cards".  Given the market penetration 
of Big Blue, back in the day, the term was probably pretty accurate.

--Chuck

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 14:09:39 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W137E46BB0870D4077A4C655A3510@phx.gbl>

Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
Dwight

 		 	   		   		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 14:13:19 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:13:19 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W137E46BB0870D4077A4C655A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <BLU168-W137E46BB0870D4077A4C655A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W35850E3E23AD16EDD5C8D4A3510@phx.gbl>


As often the case, I recall wrong.
I stand corrected.
Dwight

From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700




Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
Dwight

 		 	   		   		 	   		   		 	   		  

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 10 14:15:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:15:42 +0000
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W35850E3E23AD16EDD5C8D4A3510@phx.gbl>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>, ,
 <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <BLU168-W137E46BB0870D4077A4C655A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <BLU168-W35850E3E23AD16EDD5C8D4A3510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3F13@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> As often the case, I recall wrong.
> I stand corrected.
> Dwight
> 
> From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, looked it up.
> 2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
> Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
> Dwight

I am now totally confused. Do you believe the 2716 and 2732 require a Vpp pulse for each 
location or not? 

FWIW, I believe they do not (confirmed by the data sheets I have found on the web). You can
apply Vpp to get the thing into program mode and then apply a TTL-level 50ms pulse to 
program a location. 

-tony

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 14:18:26 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGjZKUXo-pE3TQHWQ=sysnvdppsAEXCtnEa=q_7U3m1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509100729350.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCGjZKUXo-pE3TQHWQ=sysnvdppsAEXCtnEa=q_7U3m1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101212110.5721@shell.lmi.net>

> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
>> with were "COLOUR PENCILS".

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the
> proper, old-fashioned-way. ;?)

Yes, GREY might be your FAVOURITE COLOUR.

BUT, notice though, that he said COLOUR pencils, not COLOURED pencils,
which is why I included that along with his choice of PUNCH V PUNCHED.

He was a British physicist at Goddard Space Flight Center,
studying the Van Allen radiaton belts.
We were "on-site contractors".


Which prompts me to wonder how much of this issue that we are
getting a double serving of (Deja Vu?) is related to regional
or community variations.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Sep 10 14:28:21 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:28:21 -0700
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <55F1BB7A.90508@bitsavers.org>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2> <55F1BB7A.90508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <29781DBD-D43E-4DDE-97DA-9DBCA4BB6AA5@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Sep-10, at 10:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/10/15 9:23 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> Not very interesting
>> 
> 
> backside is all-telling.
> DD12092 is the part number. DD == "Data Display"
> the display division of CDC
> 
> they are the form factor that DD used. I picked up a 3291-B display
> controller manual from Billy Pettit yesteray, and is uses discrete
> cards in the same shape.
> 
> cans are Fairchild, circa 72/73

There are two chips there with dates codes 6816.

I suspect the date codes of the form e.g. 710, 728 would be 6710, 6728. At least in the past when I've seen 3-digit dates codes they've tended to correlate with dropping the decade-year digit.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Sep 10 14:51:34 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:51:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUy=F7xT_-jqGG+MR62eQF7mao9FU2BeNMzGyYxisdEpNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl> <55F17D2A.9090809@bitsavers.org>
 <CAKtEYUy=F7xT_-jqGG+MR62eQF7mao9FU2BeNMzGyYxisdEpNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101251080.30963@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>>
>> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
>> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
>
>
> Section 7:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
> "Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"
>
> Second to last page:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT_1000_Brochure_May70.pdf
> "punch card reading and handling"
>
> 3rd page in PDF:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contribLibrDoc_Vol1_Aug76.pdf
> "Punch card equipment test"
>
> Section 5.3:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_Description_Jan58.pdf
> "On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"
>
> Page 23-5:
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_OperatorsGde_Dec87.pdf
> "different punch card decoding conventions"
>
> While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
> aforementioned capitalized generalizations.
>

So THAT's what a "petard" looks like!

:D

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 13:57:39 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:57:39 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>

For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out 
with prepunched cards containing the customer and 
billing information, to be mailed back with your 
payment for proper allocation.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" 
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available


>>>> If you find a source of paper stock that 
>>>> works, please let everyone
>>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and 
>>>> will likely never be made
>>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is 
>>>> extremely difficult to make.
>>> What is different about it? Thickness? 
>>> Weight/square metre? Density?
>>> Impregnated with something?
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
>> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and 
>> bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect 
>> from the toughness.
>
> Also, had to have the right friction to slide 
> through, but catch on the rollers.   CDC's 
> optical card readers came later, and made 
> dramatic improvements in DP.
>
> In those days, the cardstock was extremely 
> available, in large sheets and in precut blanks, 
> in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded 
> who would do custom cards, if your business 
> thought that it needed them.
>
>
> And yet, some card readers were amazingly 
> tolerant!
>
> For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch 
> of projects, such as the National Driver's Test 
> (1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software. 
> They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards, 
> which were 80 column cards with every other 
> column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody 
> could take a special stylus or a random pencil 
> and create their own hanging chips/"Chads". 
> But, how to recollect them?  They actually had 
> people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them! 
> ("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the 
> franking burden, otherwise it would have made 
> MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them 
> through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in mind 
> that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE 
> standing next to the reader, clearing jams in 
> real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified 
> the input maw?
>
> So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it 
> worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?
>
> Although the hardware reliability was a welcome 
> surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone 
> if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live 
> statistics weren't adding up close enough to 
> 100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling, 
> and right behind him, my father was frantically 
> manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week 
> later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN 
> and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee 
> table.
> Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we 
> learned a little FORTRAN.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred     cisin at xenosoft.com 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 10 13:57:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:57:42 +0000
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101148370.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101148370.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3ECC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> It will go through the [almost] straight optional paper path of laser
> printers and inkjets.  (Not the S curves)

I'll bet it will go through a Sanders 12/7 dot matrix printer too. That has a totallly
straight paper path. Paper in at the top, out at the bottom (strangely...)

However, none of the messages have explained why Will said it is 
'extremely difficult to make'. That to me suggests something special
about the card stock.

-tony

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 14:04:08 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards 
> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with your 
> payment for proper allocation.

A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills, 
and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 14:04:44 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:04:44 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:


> In those days, the cardstock was extremely available, in large sheets
>  and in precut blanks, in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded
> who would do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed
> them.

To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our 
vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.

I have no specifics on that, however.

Does anyone still use aperture cards or time cards?  Could be another 
source of stock.

--Chuck


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 14:10:15 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:10:15 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
Message-ID: <005c01d0ebfc$53875b50$fa9611f0$@gmail.com>

Where I first worked we punched duplicate cards, one which went out with the
bill and one which we kept in a box. When the money came in we used the
duplicate from the box to produce daily listings which were reconciled
against the bank statements. Then after a month we could produce reminder
letters from the remaining cards...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Stein
> Sent: 10 September 2015 19:58
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your
> payment for proper allocation.
> 
> m
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
> <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> 
> >>>> If you find a source of paper stock that
> >>>> works, please let everyone
> >>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and
> >>>> will likely never be made
> >>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is
> >>>> extremely difficult to make.
> >>> What is different about it? Thickness?
> >>> Weight/square metre? Density?
> >>> Impregnated with something?
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
> >> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and
> >> bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect
> >> from the toughness.
> >
> > Also, had to have the right friction to slide
> > through, but catch on the rollers.   CDC's
> > optical card readers came later, and made
> > dramatic improvements in DP.
> >
> > In those days, the cardstock was extremely
> > available, in large sheets and in precut blanks,
> > in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded
> > who would do custom cards, if your business
> > thought that it needed them.
> >
> >
> > And yet, some card readers were amazingly
> > tolerant!
> >
> > For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch
> > of projects, such as the National Driver's Test
> > (1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software.
> > They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards,
> > which were 80 column cards with every other
> > column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody
> > could take a special stylus or a random pencil
> > and create their own hanging chips/"Chads".
> > But, how to recollect them?  They actually had
> > people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them!
> > ("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the
> > franking burden, otherwise it would have made
> > MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them
> > through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in mind
> > that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE
> > standing next to the reader, clearing jams in
> > real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified
> > the input maw?
> >
> > So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it
> > worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?
> >
> > Although the hardware reliability was a welcome
> > surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone
> > if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live
> > statistics weren't adding up close enough to
> > 100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling,
> > and right behind him, my father was frantically
> > manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week
> > later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN
> > and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee
> > table.
> > Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we
> > learned a little FORTRAN.
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred     cisin at xenosoft.com



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 10 15:32:21 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:32:21 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E0713CE-1D75-41C4-BD2E-2BBBC83930CD@comcast.net>


> On Sep 10, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
> stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
> but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
> cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
> running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
> applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
> cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.

Wikipedia mentions the thickness spec: 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick.  And it refers to ANSI and ISO standards that specify the card in more detail, but of course those are the kind of unfriendly standards that you have to pay for.

Card stock exists in a large number of varieties.  It may be perfectly straightforward if you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that supplies paper to print shops).  For example, with a quick look at Mohawk Paper company I see a dozen different papers.  Picking one of them ("Options") shows a very smooth paper in 13 different thickness specs from .0036 to .0185 inches -- and .0069 is one of the choices listed.

	paul

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 16:34:55 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:34:55 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <4E0713CE-1D75-41C4-BD2E-2BBBC83930CD@comcast.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <CAA43vkUk8srHhmk5bUPb_h7PJmPZZtrvYEPRiUxd-e112v_XGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4E0713CE-1D75-41C4-BD2E-2BBBC83930CD@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+deWH_1kpey3GLUcviYzCYocxvSTMUo211PFHTB90+iL6w@mail.gmail.com>

> Card stock exists in a large number of varieties.  It may be perfectly straightforward if you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that supplies paper to print shops).  For example, with a quick look at Mohawk Paper company I see a dozen different papers.  Picking one of them ("Options") shows a very smooth paper in 13 different thickness specs from .0036 to .0185 inches -- and .0069 is one of the choices listed.

There is much more to it than just thickness.

When I was cleaning out Cardamation and talking to the owners, they
talked about the problems they had when the last mill shut down
punched card stock, and the best solution they came up with just did
not work well. The stock is very much a specialty item, due to its
strict specifications. The mills treated is so special that the
workers making the stuff were paid by how much usable stock they
produced, much to the dislike of the unions. Because of this, the
mills and unions basically said that no amount of money would restart
the lines.

--
Will

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Sep 10 16:38:40 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
>> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards 
>> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with 
>> your payment for proper allocation.
>
> A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills, and 
> before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
> (NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)

This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone 
mental on us Jay?

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 16:53:59 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101452070.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, geneb wrote:
> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone 
> mental on us Jay?

Some of the messages might be worth getting more than once.  Not that one.

I think that I got EVERY message twice.  Is this still CCTECH/CCTALK 
issues?



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Sep 10 17:14:35 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:14:35 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101452070.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>,
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101452070.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <0572A75D-482B-4B92-AD09-ACBA18A51706@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-Sep-10, at 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, geneb wrote:
>> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone mental on us Jay?
> 
> Some of the messages might be worth getting more than once.  Not that one.
> 
> I think that I got EVERY message twice.  Is this still CCTECH/CCTALK issues?

I've had duplicates coming in bunches at some point in the day for awhile.
The duplicates tend to be addressed to cctech, although I can't categorically say that they all are.


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:33:16 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:33:16 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3F13@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <0a6201d0ea6a$854ea0a0$8febe1e0$@gmail.com>,
 ,,<CAA43vkWRyDuprROQ3ShkxrhANfxifvj3Qunc=AxZjOgODLHmOQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 ,,<000001d0ea7e$d0beabc0$723c0340$@classiccmp.org>,
 ,,<CAA43vkUQYGtSa-PV5AfxUQG-eDY56BU4AEQABf+_o-Mwa0Ft9g@mail.gmail.com>,
 ,,<CAA43vkUxS0BApnS0C4g-fN+i8PrrvEtkfSQw9aJQwTzMxePZdQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 ,,<000701d0eb59$c53cb090$4fb611b0$@classiccmp.org>,
 ,,<CAM2UOwJq0Wvjj6iJZ=6EMW1z7grq-h0x4EXL0SOKQ0SuXAZb8Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 ,,<000901d0eb63$a7301420$f5903c60$@classiccmp.org>,
 , , <BLU168-W512B75DA6413471B858428A3510@phx.gbl>, ,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3DE7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>, ,
 <BLU168-W1168BA376B6D28420CBB431A3510@phx.gbl>, ,
 <BLU168-W137E46BB0870D4077A4C655A3510@phx.gbl>, ,
 <BLU168-W35850E3E23AD16EDD5C8D4A3510@phx.gbl>,
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3F13@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W11787A09D688B41FF4BE754A3510@phx.gbl>

I was mistaken.
I've admitted it.
Dwight


> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:15:42 +0000
> 
> > As often the case, I recall wrong.
> > I stand corrected.
> > Dwight
> > 
> > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yep, looked it up.
> > 2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
> > Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
> > Dwight
> 
> I am now totally confused. Do you believe the 2716 and 2732 require a Vpp pulse for each 
> location or not? 
> 
> FWIW, I believe they do not (confirmed by the data sheets I have found on the web). You can
> apply Vpp to get the thing into program mode and then apply a TTL-level 50ms pulse to 
> program a location. 
> 
> -tony
 		 	   		  

From isking at uw.edu  Thu Sep 10 19:26:56 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:26:56 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <d3e93.114f32cc.4320d068@aol.com>
References: <d3e93.114f32cc.4320d068@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02sQXjGGJZ-rdL1UDjYB9TXbh5NfqOEXOT4tbb4joe6bA@mail.gmail.com>

Are you looking for one to buy, to use, to study for restoration...?  I
know some folks who have them, but they're not for sale.  :-)

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM, <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:

> wow... that is absurd! $24,999
> someone needs rehab...
>
>
> In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI
> ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Sep 10 19:34:58 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:34:58 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <11d17b.77986076.43237bb1@aol.com>

well  SMECC  needs one  hopefully to make  work   so we can show  the 
youn'ins  how  cards were punched!
hopefully  something  to be  gotten here in AZ    but  I am open....
 
Thanks   Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2015 5:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
isking at uw.edu writes:

Are you  looking for one to buy, to use, to study for restoration...?  I
know  some folks who have them, but they're not for sale.  :-)

On Tue,  Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM, <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:

> wow...  that is absurd! $24,999
> someone needs rehab...
>
>
>  In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>  hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes:
>
>
>  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI
>  ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14
>



--  
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School  <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered:  Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design  Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal  <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab  <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an  old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to  China."


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Sep 10 20:02:40 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:02:40 -0500
Subject: Amiga 2000HD spotted, STL
Message-ID: <007001d0ec2d$8f4bb010$ade31030$@classiccmp.org>

Local electronics haunt has an Amiga 2000HD on the shelf.  I was in a rush
so didn't get any particulars. It did not appear to have a monitor or
keyboard. Didn't see a price tag, but just from past experience I'd guess
the owner tagged it around $50.

 

I'm not in to them, no interest.. But if someone is interested I'd be happy
to look further, ship, etc.

 

J


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 20:32:11 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:32:11 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>

Hello, all,

I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his 
personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government 
censorship or a private war between iinet and US content 
providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at 
least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home 
(totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages 
at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be 
accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world is 
being affected.

Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to 
host the affected files to get around this problem.

So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
the US, to check if they can view this page:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.

Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether 
it works or DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how 
much of the US is being blocked.  Also, let me know where 
you are.  I am assuming this is only a problem in the US, 
but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make 
email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO 
being blocked.

If you want to do some more research, just Google 
members.iinet and you will see a lot of hits of the form:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name

and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home 
and work IP, I can not get ANY of these pages to respond.

If you want to see my page, it is :
http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html

Thanks for any help or info you can offer!

Jon



From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org  Thu Sep 10 21:07:40 2015
From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:37:40 +0930
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>

On 11/09/2015 11:02 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Hello, all,
> 
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
> as his ISP.

iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
understanding).

I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
wouldn't be surprised.

Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
my previous ISP.

Cheers,

Alexis.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 10 21:54:33 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:54:33 -0600
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F24269.50405@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/10/2015 7:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem
> has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in
> Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web
> ring link to his personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to
> government censorship or a private war between iinet and US content
> providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at least some
> sites in the US.  So, from my work or home (totally different IPs) I
> cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet, but a few general help pages
> there can be accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world
> is being affected.

Well it does not work in CANADA as of today.
It was working about a month ago, as I am designing a 8 bit cpu
on the DE1 FPGA PCB, and I was looking for ideas.
Can one get all the web pages mirrored, I hate this loss information
with the net.
Ben.
PS. Your site is fine, The Down Under sites are well DOWN and under.
Thinking about it the PDP 11 was strange beast, as having both character
and floating point data, even with split I&D you had way too small of 
memory.A simple 32 bit machine could have been a better option. Mind you 
the 11 was designed before 4K dram hit the market.
I have a nice 32 bit design but I want to get this 8 bit cpu working 
first. Any one knows what modern C compiler will compile Tiny C version 
1.0? Man with a CPU and no software.



From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Sep 10 21:58:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:58:10 -0700
Subject: Amiga 2000HD spotted, STL
In-Reply-To: <007001d0ec2d$8f4bb010$ade31030$@classiccmp.org>
References: <007001d0ec2d$8f4bb010$ade31030$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55F24342.3080504@jwsss.com>

I talked to the guy at the counter, and meant to post this too.  He gets 
a lot of Amiga hardware and would be worth polling if you are 
interested.  I suspect that the prices will go up if a bunch of Amiga 
people pounce though, and they can use the bucks there.  (ask Jay for 
the contact)

Lots of NTSC studio quality video pulls as well, worth the visit if you 
are near STL and want to have very high quality NTSC video switching and 
other equipment.  Looks like some local studios probably just recent.y 
digitized since there is nearly a full setup there right now.  Leich and 
Grass Valley spotted for example.

Sad thing was there was an IBM 5100 at the other local junk location 
there and it was gone when my friend and I went there (after lunch with 
Jay, by the way thanks again for meeting up and buying lunch, Jay).

I spotted a Boeing store on Lindbergh on the way to the hotel, too late 
to visit.  Anyone culled thru there for what they have?  The one in 
Seattle was always a must visit in Kent when I was visiting there for 
work.  Daily visits are warranted.  Sadly it is shut down.

thanks
Jim


On 9/10/2015 6:02 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Local electronics haunt has an Amiga 2000HD on the shelf.  I was in a rush
> so didn't get any particulars. It did not appear to have a monitor or
> keyboard. Didn't see a price tag, but just from past experience I'd guess
> the owner tagged it around $50.
>
>   
>
> I'm not in to them, no interest.. But if someone is interested I'd be happy
> to look further, ship, etc.
>
>   
>
> J
>
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 21:58:26 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:58:26 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F24352.7080205@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 06:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird
> problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David
> Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All
> members of the web ring link to his personal web pages at iinet.
> Apparently, due to government censorship or a private war between
> iinet and US content providers, iinet or Australia are blocking
> access from at least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home
> (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet,
> but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far as I can
> tell, nobody else in the world is being affected.

Works from western US just fine.

Have you considered using a proxy server?  Some may frown on it, but 
that's how I've had to access some blocked sites, such as the Olympics 
reporting on the Beeb. (Just find a UK anonymous proxy and you're good).

There are lists of proxies on the net that are continuously updated.

FWIW,
Chuck


From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Sep 10 22:03:28 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:03:28 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>

I am forwarding this to a friend in Australia for him to do more 
extensive comment and diagnosis.

Try http://traceroute.org/ for diagnosing this.  It allows you to 
perform traceroute from cooperating servers across the world, including 
australia.

there are some sites you will have to ferret out to allow you to bypass 
country IP blocking.

And yet australia is one of the more stupid countries (exceeded only by 
Germany and the EU) about censorship, and fouling up the works.

Yes the page timed out on me.  I'll see if I can find the router that 
did it and post an update.

thanks
Jim

On 9/10/2015 7:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
> On 11/09/2015 11:02 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Hello, all,
>>
>> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really
>> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the
>> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au
>> as his ISP.
> iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
> the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
> concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
> understanding).
>
> I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
> see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
> seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
> wouldn't be surprised.
>
> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
> the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
> my previous ISP.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alexis.
>
>


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 10 22:08:38 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:08:38 -0600
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/10/2015 9:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
> I am forwarding this to a friend in Australia for him to do more
> extensive comment and diagnosis.
>
> Try http://traceroute.org/ for diagnosing this.  It allows you to
> perform traceroute from cooperating servers across the world, including
> australia.
>
> there are some sites you will have to ferret out to allow you to bypass
> country IP blocking.
>
> And yet australia is one of the more stupid countries (exceeded only by
> Germany and the EU) about censorship, and fouling up the works.
>
> Yes the page timed out on me.  I'll see if I can find the router that
> did it and post an update.
>
> thanks
> Jim

What I find more annoying, is this cloud crap.
The web site is down, click here to try a update.
YOU TURKEYS! THAT IS WHY ARE CACHE-ING THE STUFF.
Ben.



From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 22:14:23 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:14:23 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb3WuCoro6_88xPMMCDc_v2yEPMkUoaAdqvU2j00=CY7Yg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 September 2015 at 22:07, Alexis Kotlowy
<thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org> wrote:
> iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
> the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
> concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
> understanding).
>
> I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
> see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
> seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
> wouldn't be surprised.
>
It'll only get worse if the TPP goes through?


> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
> the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
> my previous ISP.
>
Doing a traceroute from my home, which is serviced by TekSavvy (in
Canada); my connection to members.iinet.net.au dies at a router owned
by Hurricane Electric, Inc. of California. Since it seems to bounce
through a few of their routers, I'm assuming that whoever Hurricane
Electric hands off the packets to kills it. (Based on my traceroute;
other results may vary.)

>From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before
dying).


Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 22:15:45 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 15:15:45 +1200
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbO-7hsLzAk3ZNK8e5y1qk0cmU7wCx5zSUOM8FkUZ8rnhQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've forwarded this to a journo at The Register, and hopefully they'll
have a good poke at it.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem has
> turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in Australia,
> and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his
> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government censorship or a
> private war between iinet and US content providers, iinet or Australia are
> blocking access from at least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or
> home (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet,
> but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far as I can tell,
> nobody else in the world is being affected.
>
> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to host the affected
> files to get around this problem.
>
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to check
> if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
>
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether it works or
> DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how much of the US is being
> blocked.  Also, let me know where you are.  I am assuming this is only a
> problem in the US, but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO being blocked.
>
> If you want to do some more research, just Google members.iinet and you will
> see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home and work IP, I can
> not get ANY of these pages to respond.
>
> If you want to see my page, it is :
> http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html
>
> Thanks for any help or info you can offer!
>
> Jon
>
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 22:22:30 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 22:22:30 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case 
> DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been 
> on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers, 
> Alexis. 
Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't 
figure out from the man page how to increase it.

Not a DNS problem.

Thanks,

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 22:27:03 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 22:27:03 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F24269.50405@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F24269.50405@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55F24A07.1080603@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 09:54 PM, ben wrote:
>
> Well it does not work in CANADA as of today.
WOW, this is new info!
> It was working about a month ago, as I am designing a 8 
> bit cpu
> on the DE1 FPGA PCB, and I was looking for ideas.
> Can one get all the web pages mirrored, I hate this loss 
> information
> with the net.
> Ben.
> PS. Your site is fine, The Down Under sites are well DOWN 
> and under.
My page works now because I have removed the links to the 
iinet files and gotten a local copy of the .js file.
> Thinking about it the PDP 11 was strange beast, as having 
> both character
> and floating point data, even with split I&D you had way 
> too small of memory.A simple 32 bit machine could have 
> been a better option. Mind you the 11 was designed before 
> 4K dram hit the market.
> I have a nice 32 bit design but I want to get this 8 bit 
> cpu working first. Any one knows what modern C compiler 
> will compile Tiny C version 1.0? Man with a CPU and no 
> software.
>
I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but 
the limited memory was a big killer.  The 11 was designed 
when CORE was still king!  We had several PDP-11's with core 
in them at first.

I played around with Tiny C a bit, a LONG time ago.  I guess 
I ran it on a MicroSoft C compiler.

Jon


From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org  Thu Sep 10 22:38:59 2015
From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:08:59 +0930
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org>

On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
>> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case 
>> DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been 
>> on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers, 
>> Alexis. 
> Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't 
> figure out from the man page how to increase it.
> 
> Not a DNS problem.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jon
> 

I'm poking around with this service:
http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass

Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
stops as it goes to leave California.

Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?

Alexis.

From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Thu Sep 10 22:49:43 2015
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:49:43 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CAKUYOb3WuCoro6_88xPMMCDc_v2yEPMkUoaAdqvU2j00=CY7Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 9/10/15, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:
> From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
> of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
> network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before dying).

I'm seeing the same behavior from Verizon-provided service.

BLS


From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org  Thu Sep 10 23:10:00 2015
From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:40:00 +0930
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>
 <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <55F25418.9030800@kaput.homeunix.org>

> On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> I'm poking around with this service:
> http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass
> 
> Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
> through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
> stops as it goes to leave California.
> 
> Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?
> 
> Alexis.
> 

Also, I'm talking to a network-oriented friend in Canada who reckons
it's iiNet who are blocking packets. I'd like to know why!

Alexis.

From go at aerodesic.com  Thu Sep 10 23:11:05 2015
From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:11:05 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>

Same behaviour from comcast.com in Oregon (a cablemodem connection) as 
well as from peakinternet.com (local isp.)  Also have tried using one of 
my AWS (amazon) virtuals and get the similar results.

comcast.com traceroute stops at:
be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)

my amazon instance stops at:
be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)

peakinternet.com stops at:
100ge11-1.core1.lax2.he.net (72.52.92.122)

FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been trying to get to 
look at current crop of home builts and could not find a way to the web 
ring.  iinet.net.au is reachable but not members.iinet.net.au

The amazon instance is in the US West region (north-central Oregon I 
presume.)

Tomorrow I'll fire up a proxy on the east coast and see what happens.

-Gary


On 09/10/2015 08:49 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote:
> On Thu, 9/10/15, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359am at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
>> of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
>> network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before dying).
> I'm seeing the same behavior from Verizon-provided service.
>
> BLS
>


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 23:41:29 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:41:29 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>
 <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <55F25B79.6070303@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 10:38 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
> On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
>>> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case
>>> DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been
>>> on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers,
>>> Alexis.
>> Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't
>> figure out from the man page how to increase it.
>>
>> Not a DNS problem.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jon
>>
> I'm poking around with this service:
> http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass
>
> Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
> through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
> stops as it goes to leave California.
>
> Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?
>
>
Yes.  Actually, it seems that MEMBERS.iinet.net.au is what 
is being blocked, although I seem to not be able to email 
David Brooks through his iinet email address, either.  But, 
the iinet main page does work for me.

A number of other people seem to indicate if their routing 
takes them through cogent that it fails, so this may be the 
key node that is blocking iinet.

Jon
Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 23:43:37 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:43:37 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <55F25BF9.1000309@sydex.com>

Oh, BTW, here's the traceroute for my (successful) access.  Oregon, 
again, but through Centurylink DSL:

traceroute to 203.0.178.90 (203.0.178.90), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
  1  10.0.0.252 (10.0.0.252)  0.451 ms  0.392 ms  0.364 ms
  2  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  5.304 ms  10.255 ms  14.160 ms
  3  67.42.192.200 (67.42.192.200)  57.234 ms  60.042 ms  62.991 ms
  4  eugn-agw1.inet.qwest.net (67.42.193.57)  63.939 ms  64.865 ms 
65.806 ms
  5  sea-brdr-02.inet.qwest.net (67.14.41.18)  81.767 ms  83.713 ms 
73.671 ms
  6  ae1.sea23.ip4.gtt.net (199.229.230.213)  113.670 ms  69.684 ms 
70.529 ms
  7  et-3-3-0.lax22.ip4.gtt.net (89.149.128.81)  95.460 ms  84.431 ms 
94.272 ms
  8  * * *
  9  * * *
10  * * *
11  * * *
12  * * *
13  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net (150.101.33.10)  289.884 ms  289.696 ms 
289.659 ms
14  ae5.cr1.adl6.on.ii.net (150.101.37.237)  289.656 ms  289.761 ms 
289.644 ms
15  ae0.cr1.adl2.on.ii.net (150.101.33.2)  289.679 ms  289.713 ms 
289.874 ms
16  aex.cr1.per1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.19)  289.754 ms  290.740 ms 
349.686 ms
17  ae0.cr1.per4.on.ii.net (150.101.34.170)  330.610 ms  288.678 ms 
289.842 ms
18  po6-10.per-qv1-bdr1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.91)  289.816 ms  289.791 
ms  277.701 ms
19  te1-0-1-113.per-qv1-bdr2.on.ii.net (203.215.4.41)  279.471 ms 
282.395 ms  283.352 ms
20  gi5-2.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.8)  284.290 ms 
gi3-5.icp-qv1-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.4)  285.234 ms 
gi5-2.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.8)  288.152 ms
21  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  291.103 ms  292.040 ms  292.977 ms
22  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  293.899 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  294.856 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  295.797 ms
23  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  297.746 ms  301.692 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  302.626 ms
24  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  279.594 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  281.623 ms  284.800 ms
25  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  286.828 ms  287.148 ms  287.120 ms
26  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  288.223 ms 
289.297 ms members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  289.818 ms
27  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  289.838 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  289.251 ms  292.341 ms
28  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  289.256 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  293.338 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  290.765 ms
29  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  290.218 ms  314.638 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  311.164 ms
30  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  307.669 ms  304.158 ms  309.702 ms

Don't know if this helps or not.  Odd that Comcast isn't allowing things 
through.

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 23:49:54 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:49:54 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F25418.9030800@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F248F6.6030307@pico-systems.com>
 <55F24CD3.6090502@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F25418.9030800@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <55F25D72.50909@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 11:10 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
> Also, I'm talking to a network-oriented friend in Canada 
> who reckons it's iiNet who are blocking packets. I'd like 
> to know why! Alexis. 
iinet has posted several blogs and position papers decrying 
poorly thought out responses to intellectual property 
piracy, and draconian laws that apparently were enacted in 
Australia in June.  They are apparently engaged in a war of 
words (and maybe more things they are not talking about) 
with the MPAA and other IP representatives.

I suppose if iinet is worried about being sued for their 
user's making pirated content available for download, then 
blocking people outside .AU from seeing member's web pages 
might be a rational way to stop US groups from detecting the 
pirated content.

OR, maybe some groups in the US have convinced some ISPs in 
the US to block certain .AU web sites.

Ah ha!  I see that iinet.net.au and members.iinet.net.au 
resolve to DIFFERENT IP addresses.
(Neither of these respond to pings, but that is not that 
unusual, lots of facilities don't allow pinging from outside.)

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 10 23:51:52 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:51:52 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <55F25DE8.40700@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 11:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
>
> FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been 
> trying to get to look at current crop of home builts and 
> could not find a way to the web ring.  iinet.net.au is 
> reachable but not members.iinet.net.au
>
Yup, that is right, this all worked a couple months ago, for 
certain.  I can't remember the last time it did work, but it 
wasn't all that long ago.  The members.iinet resolves to a 
different IP address.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 11 00:04:22 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 00:04:22 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <55F260D6.9000904@pico-systems.com>

On 09/10/2015 11:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
>
> FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been 
> trying to get to look at current crop of home builts and 
> could not find a way to the web ring.
Here's the latest list out of the javascript file that one 
of the ring members in Germany got me a copy from Dave 
Brooks' site.

sites[index++] = "http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.homebrewcpu.com/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.aholme.co.uk/Mk1/Architecture.htm"
sites[index++] = "http://www.timefracture.org/D16.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/"
sites[index++] = "http://cpuville.com/index.htm"
sites[index++] = "http://www.mycpu.eu"
sites[index++] = "http://www.galacticelectronics.com/Simple4BitCPU.HTML"
sites[index++] = "http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hjs22/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.wellytop.com/Fnagaton/DIYComputer.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.schlaefendorf.de/relaisrechner/dokumentation/index.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.nablaman.com/relay/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/adeptpage/menu.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.bigbit.com/bigbit/BIGBITComputer.htm"
sites[index++] = "http://www.praxibetel.org/toro/toro.html"
sites[index++] = "http://alessiolombardo.altervista.org/ttlcomputer/index.htm"
sites[index++] = "http://www.pilawa.org/computer/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.bigmessowires.com/bmow1/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/CS428/WireWrap.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm"
//sites[index++] = "http://neazoi.com/transistorizedcpu/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.ttlcpu.com/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tinytim.htm"
sites[index++] = "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/elitepage/menu.html"
sites[index++] = "http://other-1.webs.com/"
sites[index++] = "http://isquared.weebly.com/index.html"
//sites[index++] = "http://penny.bplaced.net/www/index.php?id=8-bit-ttl-cpu"
sites[index++] = "http://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/"
sites[index++] = "http://canyouseethestars.com/project-the-kino-74/"
sites[index++] = "http://digitarworld.uw.hu/ttlcpu.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.clivemaxfield.com/diycalculator/popup-m-hrrgcomp.shtml"
sites[index++] = "http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html"
sites[index++] = "http://www.relaiscomputer.nl/"
sites[index++] = "http://www.lovqvist.net/"
// sites[index++] = "http://k1.dyndns.org/Develop/Hardware/K1-Computer/"
// sites[index++] = "http://www.armandoacosta.com/cpu/index.php"
// sites[index++] = "http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/iWeb/adeptpage/menu.html"
// sites[index++] = "http://tripu.triphoenix.de/Main_Page"
// sites[index++] = "http://wiesi.dyndns.org/4bit/index.html"
// sites[index++] = "http://marc.cleave.me.uk/cpu/index.htm"



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 11 00:05:15 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 05:05:15 +0000
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>,<55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4062@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

I have just viewed it (UK, Demon ISP). I've also checked, I can 
download at least one of the schematics linked from that page
(I have not checked it makes electronic sense ;-))

-tony

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 10 16:32:04 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:32:04 -0500
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>

On 9/10/2015 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
> 
> To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our
> vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.
> 

Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of Bush's
first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader from Texas
a few years back that was retired as a result of that fiaso.

JRJ

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 17:29:04 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:29:04 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of
> Bush's first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader
> from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
> fiaso.


Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively.  There were no polling 
places for the 2000 Presidential election.  Before that, we were a 
conventional come to a polling place and use a small punch tool state. 
Never saw a voting machine.  The current mail system (well, you can turn 
in a ballot at several places in most cities; mail needn't be used) uses 
mark-sense cards.  Unlike the old mark-sense cards, you're instructed to 
fill the space in with black ink, not pencil.

But cards are the operative system currently.

Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers". 
Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying 
identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What 
shocked me was the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and 
a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered 
all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled 
the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall 
correct it if necessary.   Positioning to the appropriate field was done 
via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere 
to be seen.

All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10 
minutes for each customer.

Unbelievable.

--Chuck



From cramcram at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 17:39:52 2015
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:39:52 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8TdNuChTXyk7dYYwtqNX8W=VDEph1ekfu-NSc0=6B1Piw@mail.gmail.com>

Question:  Is there a way to edit the SVG file to produce a custom message?

Thanks,

Marc

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
>>
>>> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
>>> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
>>> your payment for proper allocation.
>>>
>>
>> A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
>> and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
>> (NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
>>
>
> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone
> mental on us Jay?
>
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 17:42:30 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:42:30 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>

The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 12:56 PM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
> 
> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect from the toughness.
> 
>> On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>> 
>> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
>> Impregnated with something?
>> 
>> -tony
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
> 
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 10 18:09:19 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:09:19 -0500
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
 <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55F20D9F.1000404@charter.net>

On 9/10/2015 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers".
> Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying
> identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What
> shocked me was the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and
> a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered
> all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled
> the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall
> correct it if necessary.   Positioning to the appropriate field was done
> via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere
> to be seen.
> 

The states really don't have a whole lot of choice.  It's called legal
presence.  Has more to do with immigration than 9/11/2001.  The law that
resulted from the latter is called RealID, but there are still legal
challenges, and implementation for ordinary folks (e.g., for boarding
airplanes) has been been put off until at least 2016.

http://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs

Wisconsin has a new system as well, including the ability to scan
paperwork, capable of complying with the stringent RealID law, if it
ever actually becomes effective.  But WI can at least start by reading
the 2-D barcode on the back of the expiring/expired license.  ;)

JRJ

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 10 18:22:52 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:22:52 -0700
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
 <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com> <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55F210CC.7050909@sydex.com>

On 09/10/2015 03:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
>> It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does.
>> Watch somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form.
>> Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.
>
> yes. Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be
> entered, to provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject
> only to changes?

That was the nub of my observation.  Absolutely *NO* previous 
information was displayed on the terminal screen.  The clerk had to 
enter what amounts to the information already in the database manually.

Insane.  The clerk that serviced me entered my SSN wrong three times in 
a row.

--Chuck


From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Sep 10 20:46:42 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:46:42 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWhML55PKKeS8acJx+uH9NEtdsHsUsnGq4T2QaJgG1Hmg@mail.gmail.com>

It didn't work for me ... just hangs infinitely at "Waiting for
members.iinet.net.au..." ... feels like packets just being dropped
outright. I am on Comast Business, SE MI, USA.... my packets seem to get as
far as Cogent in LA but then from there, nothing.

Incidentally, it seems to work okay from the University of Michigan, A2 MI,
on a Merit -> GTT -> IINet route.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem
> has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in
> Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web ring
> link to his personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government
> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content providers, iinet
> or Australia are blocking access from at least some sites in the US.  So,
> from my work or home (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal
> pages at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far
> as I can tell, nobody else in the world is being affected.
>
> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to host the affected
> files to get around this problem.
>
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
>
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether it works or
> DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how much of the US is being
> blocked.  Also, let me know where you are.  I am assuming this is only a
> problem in the US, but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO being blocked.
>
> If you want to do some more research, just Google members.iinet and you
> will see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home and work IP, I
> can not get ANY of these pages to respond.
>
> If you want to see my page, it is :
> http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html
>
> Thanks for any help or info you can offer!
>
> Jon
>
>
>

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 17:47:08 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:47:08 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
 <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>

It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> 
>> Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of
>> Bush's first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader
>> from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
>> fiaso.
> 
> 
> Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively.  There were no polling places for the 2000 Presidential election.  Before that, we were a conventional come to a polling place and use a small punch tool state. Never saw a voting machine.  The current mail system (well, you can turn in a ballot at several places in most cities; mail needn't be used) uses mark-sense cards.  Unlike the old mark-sense cards, you're instructed to fill the space in with black ink, not pencil.
> 
> But cards are the operative system currently.
> 
> Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers". Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What shocked me was the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall correct it if necessary.   Positioning to the appropriate field was done via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere to be seen.
> 
> All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10 minutes for each customer.
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 17:52:10 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101550270.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same 
> stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
> The die to cut to size May cost a bit....

Conventional paper shear for sides, ends, and corner, plus conventional 
corner rounding on three corners.  Any competent bindery.
Die would be handy if making large quantities.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 10 17:54:20 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net> <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com>
 <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net> <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com>
 <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
> It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch 
> somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse 
> actually slows down data entry a lot.

yes.
Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to 
provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:02:03 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:02:03 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
 <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com> <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1939137B-A403-4C1E-88D4-7B393C8C7738@gmail.com>

Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless project managers. 
Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.

Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required "proof" included a photo.... 

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
>> It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.
> 
> yes.
> Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:41:30 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:41:30 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfoXV_z3yQ0LivPLg6eJ5X14LEk9NP97OMqtiWutJ+e=g@mail.gmail.com>

> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
> The die to cut to size May cost a bit....

No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
printability, punchability, etc..

--
Will

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 10 18:44:13 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:44:13 -0500
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <1939137B-A403-4C1E-88D4-7B393C8C7738@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F1D44C.2010509@sydex.com> <55F1F6D4.7070600@charter.net>
 <55F20430.6040204@sydex.com> <80464893-95C9-4C79-AB19-FC2480DC8263@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101553000.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <1939137B-A403-4C1E-88D4-7B393C8C7738@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F215CD.3040505@charter.net>

On 9/10/2015 6:02 PM, Joseph Lang wrote:
> Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless project managers. 
> Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.
> 
> Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required "proof" included a photo.... 
> 
> Joe
> 

That is the difference between legal presence and RealID.  The idea
between legal presence is that states are required to verify that you
are not an illegal immigrant.  Hence, no photo was involved.

Yes, RealID was ill-conceived.  (So was legal presence, for that matter).


JRJ

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:43:37 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:43:37 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+de4wGgf2-8fu1n=NSZW=sz1HaZc3t4_zzTxK7KzU4xBUg@mail.gmail.com>

> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
> The die to cut to size May cost a bit....

Also, cutting to size should not be a problem. Any modern print shop
should have a nice big computer controlled paper cutter that would do
a fine job.

--
Will

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:49:56 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:49:56 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfoXV_z3yQ0LivPLg6eJ5X14LEk9NP97OMqtiWutJ+e=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dfoXV_z3yQ0LivPLg6eJ5X14LEk9NP97OMqtiWutJ+e=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E02451CD-5DE4-46A3-8DBB-A5952A9BBA3D@gmail.com>

I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked for all the reasons you listed. They make lots of it.

Joe

On Sep 10, 2015, at 7:41 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:

>> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
>> The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
> 
> No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
> consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
> printability, punchability, etc..
> 
> --
> Will

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 18:55:41 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:55:41 -0500
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+de4wGgf2-8fu1n=NSZW=sz1HaZc3t4_zzTxK7KzU4xBUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
 <CANij+de4wGgf2-8fu1n=NSZW=sz1HaZc3t4_zzTxK7KzU4xBUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <197281A7-6426-48E1-8EAD-6A150FD7C9C6@gmail.com>

Supposedly these guys have the IBM dies and as of last year, were still making/selling new tab cards. The CHM was investigating them as a source at one point but I believe they now have more cards than they'll ever need. -C

http://www.californiatabcard.com/Tab_Cards.html


On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote:

>> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
>> The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
> 
> Also, cutting to size should not be a problem. Any modern print shop
> should have a nice big computer controlled paper cutter that would do
> a fine job.
> 
> --
> Will


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Sep 10 20:04:41 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:04:41 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <E02451CD-5DE4-46A3-8DBB-A5952A9BBA3D@gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl>
 <BFD2AB8C-E989-4D97-8156-D39C63DF869D@gmail.com>
 <CANij+dfoXV_z3yQ0LivPLg6eJ5X14LEk9NP97OMqtiWutJ+e=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <E02451CD-5DE4-46A3-8DBB-A5952A9BBA3D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dej0+tQM-RpNHOtz0sM4fhR_PFEVH8Q6dzKNV1e-ytmMw@mail.gmail.com>

> I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked for all the reasons you listed. They make lots of it.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not think that is true
anymore. I think the stock spec changed in the 1980s when the magnetic
strip was added (which might be enough to screw up old card handling
anyway). The IATA says that no more stock is being issued (and that
news is from 2008!).

--
Will

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 00:16:29 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 01:16:29 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com> <55F260D6.9000904@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <D2112C4E5F0046D8A15F5EA9C9F82BF8@310e2>

Same here (in Toronto); can get to iinet.net.au 
but not members.

But you can get at the ring from Jon's page; if 
you like blinkenlights check out the 
megaprocessor: an LED for _every_ signal, even 
inside the CPU etc:

http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html

Here's a video:
http://www.megaprocessor.com/Images/flashing_lights.mp4

Wow!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com>
To: <General at classiccmp.org>; 
"Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: internet blocking problem ?


> On 09/10/2015 11:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
>>
>> FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - 
>> been trying to get to look at current crop of 
>> home builts and could not find a way to the web 
>> ring.
> Here's the latest list out of the javascript 
> file that one of the ring members in Germany got 
> me a copy from Dave Brooks' site.
>
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html"
> sites[index++] = "http://www.homebrewcpu.com/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.aholme.co.uk/Mk1/Architecture.htm"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.timefracture.org/D16.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/"
> sites[index++] = "http://cpuville.com/index.htm"
> sites[index++] = "http://www.mycpu.eu"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.galacticelectronics.com/Simple4BitCPU.HTML"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hjs22/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.wellytop.com/Fnagaton/DIYComputer.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.schlaefendorf.de/relaisrechner/dokumentation/index.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.nablaman.com/relay/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/adeptpage/menu.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.bigbit.com/bigbit/BIGBITComputer.htm"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.praxibetel.org/toro/toro.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://alessiolombardo.altervista.org/ttlcomputer/index.htm"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.pilawa.org/computer/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.bigmessowires.com/bmow1/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/CS428/WireWrap.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm"
> //sites[index++] = 
> "http://neazoi.com/transistorizedcpu/"
> sites[index++] = "http://www.ttlcpu.com/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tinytim.htm"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/elitepage/menu.html"
> sites[index++] = "http://other-1.webs.com/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://isquared.weebly.com/index.html"
> //sites[index++] = 
> "http://penny.bplaced.net/www/index.php?id=8-bit-ttl-cpu"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://canyouseethestars.com/project-the-kino-74/"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://digitarworld.uw.hu/ttlcpu.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.clivemaxfield.com/diycalculator/popup-m-hrrgcomp.shtml"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html"
> sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html"
> sites[index++] = "http://www.relaiscomputer.nl/"
> sites[index++] = "http://www.lovqvist.net/"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://k1.dyndns.org/Develop/Hardware/K1-Computer/"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://www.armandoacosta.com/cpu/index.php"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/iWeb/adeptpage/menu.html"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://tripu.triphoenix.de/Main_Page"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://wiesi.dyndns.org/4bit/index.html"
> // sites[index++] = 
> "http://marc.cleave.me.uk/cpu/index.htm"
>
> 


From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Sep 11 00:31:34 2015
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 22:31:34 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F26736.9080908@mainecoon.com>



On 9/10/15 18:32, Jon Elson wrote:

> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

DNS doesn't resolve.  A traceroute to 203.0.178.90 dies at:

14  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  64.145 ms
83.689 ms  89.958 ms

Which seems consistent with what others are observing.  FWIW, my ISP is
a hole-in-the-wall outfit that provides wireless "broadband" to the
rural mountainous portions of Northeaster California.


-- 
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris at mainecoon.com	AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com	PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?"

From spc at conman.org  Fri Sep 11 00:36:27 2015
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 01:36:27 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F26736.9080908@mainecoon.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F26736.9080908@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <20150911053622.GA28448@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Christian Kennedy once stated:
> On 9/10/15 18:32, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> > So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> > check if they can view this page:
> > http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> 
> DNS doesn't resolve.  A traceroute to 203.0.178.90 dies at:

  DNS resolved for me, but I run my own DNS server at home.
> 14  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  64.145 ms
> 83.689 ms  89.958 ms

  My traceroute died there as well.  I'm in Boca Raton, Florida (16 miles
north of Ft. Lauderdale) and my ISP is BellSouth/AT&T.

  -spc


From north at alum.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 01:08:08 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:08:08 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F26FC8.8000800@alum.mit.edu>

On 9/10/2015 6:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> If you want to do some more research, just Google members.iinet and you will 
> see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home and work IP, I can 
> not get ANY of these pages to respond.
>
> If you want to see my page, it is :
> http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html

I run my own DNS server that talks to OPENDNS, located in Saratoga, CA, USA. ISP 
is Comcast residential cable modem service.

I can access the above pico-systems link, and was able to follow around the 
webring with no issues, using Firefox on a PC in my internal net.

Basically see no problems accessing any of the pages on sites.

 From my server I see:

nslookup members.iinet.net.au
Server:         127.0.0.1
Address:        127.0.0.1#53

Non-authoritative answer:
Name:   members.iinet.net.au
Address: 203.0.178.90

~[17] tracepath -l 1500 members.iinet.net.au
  1: router.home.lan                                       2.577ms
  2:  67.169.100.1 12.317ms
  3:  te-0-3-0-15-sur04.santaclara.ca.sfba.comcast.net 11.122ms
  4:  te-0-5-0-2-sur03.santaclara.ca.sfba.comcast.net 11.965ms asymm  3
  5:  he-0-3-0-4-ar01.santaclara.ca.sfba.comcast.net 11.750ms asymm  4
  6:  no reply
  7:  he-0-11-0-1-pe02.529bryant.ca.ibone.comcast.net 11.989ms asymm  6
  8:  50.248.118.238 11.968ms asymm  7
  9:  be2013.ccr21.sjc03.atlas.cogentco.com 13.105ms asymm  8
10:  be2000.ccr21.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com 14.580ms asymm  9
11:  no reply
12:  be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com 22.400ms asymm  8
13:  no reply
14:  no reply
15:  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net 217.966ms asymm 19
16:  ae5.cr1.adl6.on.ii.net 218.017ms asymm 18
17:  ae0.cr1.adl2.on.ii.net 216.772ms
18:  aex.cr1.per1.on.ii.net 223.499ms asymm 16
19:  ae0.cr1.per4.on.ii.net 214.932ms asymm 14
20:  po6-10.per-qv1-bdr1.on.ii.net 214.709ms asymm 15
21:  te1-0-1-113.per-qv1-bdr2.on.ii.net 231.016ms asymm 14
22:  gi3-5.icp-qv1-core1.iinet.net.au 214.557ms asymm 15
23:  203.215.4.208 215.310ms asymm 15
24:  members.iinet.net.au 214.540ms asymm 16
25:  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au 242.611ms asymm 15
26:  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au 214.764ms asymm 15
27:  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au 216.161ms asymm 15
28:  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au 220.364ms asymm 15
29:  members.iinet.net.au 214.646ms asymm 16
30:  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au 215.907ms asymm 15
31:  members.iinet.net.au 213.915ms asymm 16

From simski at dds.nl  Fri Sep 11 01:27:45 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:27:45 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8TdNuChTXyk7dYYwtqNX8W=VDEph1ekfu-NSc0=6B1Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <CANij+deA3dWh97o24QLzkUEm9jeNXbU7YL71qL7jkTZyZ+Fy=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D3E19@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55F1B639.6040705@dds.nl> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101110530.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <DA5C0C912FFB4F3FB679714CF971C2C3@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509101202310.5721@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509101438120.950@deltasoft.com>
 <CAC20j8TdNuChTXyk7dYYwtqNX8W=VDEph1ekfu-NSc0=6B1Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F27461.5000202@dds.nl>

shure. go ahead. the svg has layers.

top to bottom:

demo (with the dot matrix text)
holes (all the holes, but not with a solid fill
print (the numbers)
card (the card itself)


As I made the original card in illustrator on a mac three years ago and 
I'm a "switcher" to linux, I changed the format to svg for portability. 
in translation, the dot matrix font was lost (or it did'nt exist in the 
first place. I could have made the font with separate dots)

simon

On 11-09-15 00:39, Marc Howard wrote:
> Question:  Is there a way to edit the SVG file to produce a custom message?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
>>>> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
>>>> your payment for proper allocation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
>>> and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
>>> (NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
>>>
>>
>> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone
>> mental on us Jay?
>>
>>
>> g.
>>
>> --
>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
>> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>>
>> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
>> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
>> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Sep 11 02:51:44 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:51:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are 
> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of 
> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot 
> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file. As 
> soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards can 
> be reproduced. :-)

Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed) 
cards, at least they did five years ago.

Christian

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 03:02:41 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:02:41 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CABYXGGgpZoVDWs-vvqruxH=0NL3O+zOuHgChkQFPjqGTx+m0CA@mail.gmail.com>

Could not find anything on their web site...
On Sep 11, 2015 8:51 AM, "Christian Corti" <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
>
>> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
>> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
>> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
>> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
>> As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
>> can be reproduced. :-)
>>
>
> Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed)
> cards, at least they did five years ago.
>
> Christian
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Sep 11 03:12:06 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:12:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CABYXGGgpZoVDWs-vvqruxH=0NL3O+zOuHgChkQFPjqGTx+m0CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
 <CABYXGGgpZoVDWs-vvqruxH=0NL3O+zOuHgChkQFPjqGTx+m0CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509111007200.26847@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
> Could not find anything on their web site...

You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means 
because they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few years ago, but 
our "project" stalled because they wanted some obscure file format for the 
printing (QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with 
really blank cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able 
to deliver them.

Christian

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Sep 11 03:40:53 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:40:53 +0100
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F29395.7030003@dunnington.plus.com>

On 11/09/2015 02:32, Jon Elson wrote:
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

Yes, I can (from York, UK, my ISP is Plusnet).  Here's a traceroute:

  1  cisco877 (x.x.x.x)  2.400 ms  1.484 ms  1.354 ms
  2  lo0-central10.pcl-ag02.plus.net (195.166.128.183)  23.643 ms 
17.026 ms  17.156 ms
  3  link-a-central10.pcl-gw01.plus.net (212.159.2.164)  17.246 ms 
17.894 ms  17.364 ms
  4  xe-10-1-0.pcl-cr01.plus.net (212.159.0.196)  16.966 ms  17.073 ms 
19.371 ms
  5  195.99.126.96 (195.99.126.96)  17.381 ms  18.651 ms  17.598 ms
  6  core3-te0-2-0-19.faraday.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.249.5)  18.059 ms 
core3-te0-2-0-18.faraday.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.249.1)  18.011 ms 
core4-te0-0-0-19.faraday.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.249.47)  17.576 ms
  7  host213-121-193-183.ukcore.bt.net (213.121.193.183)  19.329 ms 
peer6-BE7.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (213.121.193.179)  20.248 ms 
peer6-hu0-19-0-1.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (213.121.193.181)  17.568 ms
  8  166-49-211-240.eu.bt.net (166.49.211.240)  17.862 ms 
166-49-211-242.eu.bt.net (166.49.211.242)  17.447 ms 
166-49-211-236.eu.bt.net (166.49.211.236)  17.307 ms
  9  166-49-211-38.eu.bt.net (166.49.211.38)  17.490 ms  17.709 ms 
17.629 ms
10  et-3-1-0.lax22.ip4.gtt.net (141.136.110.17)  155.702 ms  171.972 ms 
  154.836 ms
11  * * *
12  * * *
13  * * *
14  * * *
15  * * *
16  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net (150.101.33.10)  358.478 ms  358.957 ms 
358.569 ms
17  ae5.cr1.adl6.on.ii.net (150.101.37.237)  358.802 ms  358.578 ms 
366.367 ms
18  ae0.cr1.adl2.on.ii.net (150.101.33.2)  358.683 ms  359.084 ms 
358.763 ms
19  aex.cr1.per1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.19)  358.888 ms  366.312 ms 
366.156 ms
20  ae0.cr1.per4.on.ii.net (150.101.34.170)  358.079 ms  365.913 ms 
366.136 ms
21  po6-10.per-qv1-bdr1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.91)  358.222 ms  377.115 
ms  366.107 ms
22  te1-0-1-113.per-qv1-bdr2.on.ii.net (203.215.4.41)  295.066 ms 
294.450 ms  294.677 ms
23  gi5-2.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.8)  302.885 ms  303.318 
ms  296.124 ms
24  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  358.722 ms  366.378 ms 
203.215.4.208 (203.215.4.208)  359.342 ms
25  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  366.395 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  304.259 ms  295.479 ms
26  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  358.789 ms  358.783 ms  359.028 ms
27  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  296.329 ms 
296.295 ms members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  358.812 ms
28  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  297.262 ms 
303.898 ms  296.044 ms
29  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  358.822 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  296.023 ms  304.562 ms
30  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  358.778 ms  358.834 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  303.581 ms
$


-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 03:56:21 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:56:21 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509111007200.26847@linuxserv.home>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
 <CABYXGGgpZoVDWs-vvqruxH=0NL3O+zOuHgChkQFPjqGTx+m0CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509111007200.26847@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <002601d0ec6f$bdf09510$39d1bf30$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
> Corti
> Sent: 11 September 2015 09:12
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
> > Could not find anything on their web site...
> 
> You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means
because
> they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few years ago, but our
"project"
> stalled because they wanted some obscure file format for the printing
> (QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with really blank
> cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able to deliver
them.
> 
> Christian

I think I have a copy of QuarkExpress somewhere.


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 04:03:41 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:03:41 +0100
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509111007200.26847@linuxserv.home>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
 <CABYXGGgpZoVDWs-vvqruxH=0NL3O+zOuHgChkQFPjqGTx+m0CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509111007200.26847@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <005901d0ec70$c1504560$43f0d020$@gmail.com>

I have asked and will report back.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
> Corti
> Sent: 11 September 2015 09:12
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
> > Could not find anything on their web site...
> 
> You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means
because
> they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few years ago, but our
"project"
> stalled because they wanted some obscure file format for the printing
> (QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with really blank
> cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able to deliver
them.
> 
> Christian


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep 11 06:46:51 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 06:46:51 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
 <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>

Ben wrote....
----
What I find more annoying, is this cloud crap.
----
"There is no such thing as 'the cloud', it's just someone else's computer."

Love that quote... so true... and I sell cloud services ;)

J




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Sep 11 07:54:11 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 05:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509110553360.19231@deltasoft.com>

> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
> the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
> my previous ISP.
>
Here's a traceroute sample:
  1  75-145-20-102-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net (75.145.20.102) 
0.554 ms  1.468 ms  1.878 ms
  2  96.120.101.173 (96.120.101.173)  12.365 ms  13.275 ms  13.457 ms
  3  te-0-2-0-4-sur02.tacoma.wa.seattle.comcast.net (68.87.207.193)  21.075 
ms  21.161 ms  21.245 ms
  4  be-1-sur03.tacoma.wa.seattle.comcast.net (69.139.164.210)  19.539 ms 
20.673 ms  20.886 ms
  5  be-28-ar01.seattle.wa.seattle.comcast.net (69.139.164.205)  25.549 ms 
25.034 ms  25.142 ms
  6  be-33650-cr02.seattle.wa.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.93.165)  25.681 ms 
23.712 ms  23.783 ms
  7  he-0-13-0-0-pe04.seattle.wa.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.82.234)  21.195 
ms  15.285 ms  22.278 ms
  8  as174.seattle.wa.ibone.comcast.net (66.208.228.110)  22.719 ms  16.767 
ms  19.258 ms
  9  be2084.ccr22.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.253)  20.280 ms 
19.499 ms  22.475 ms
10  be2077.ccr22.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.241)  37.690 ms 
be2075.ccr21.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.233)  36.861 ms 
be2077.ccr22.sfo01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.241)  33.408 ms
11  be2164.ccr21.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.28.34)  34.810 ms 
be2165.ccr22.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.28.66)  39.254 ms 
be2164.ccr21.sjc01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.28.34)  39.929 ms
12  be2160.ccr21.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.161)  47.379 ms 
be2161.ccr22.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.169)  48.420 ms  45.969 
ms
13  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  43.561 ms 
45.060 ms be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)  44.200 ms
14  * * *

It times out after the 14th hop.

g.

-- 
Proud 
owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 08:10:47 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:10:47 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F2D2D7.8030806@gmail.com>

On 09/10/2015 08:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

It works for me here (northern Minnesota)

Jules


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Sep 11 08:26:32 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <201509111326.JAA19772@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

ETIMEDOUT.

members.iinet.net.au resolves to 203.0.178.90 for me.  mtr shows

 Host                                Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 98.124.61.89                      0.0%   382    1.1   1.5   0.7 123.1   7.2
 2. 10.0.0.1                          0.0%   382    1.0   1.1   0.7  20.4   1.6
 3. 205.233.56.250                    0.0%   382   14.5  14.8  13.3  38.7   3.3
 4. 205.233.56.253                    0.0%   382   14.0  14.7  13.2 149.5   7.2
 5. 76.10.144.58                      0.0%   382   14.3  15.6  13.6  83.6   5.3
 6. 69.196.136.48                     0.0%   382   14.7  15.3  13.6  90.0   5.9
 7. 209.51.184.253                    0.0%   382   14.4  25.7  13.6 132.2  20.9
 8. 184.105.80.5                      0.0%   382   25.6  30.0  23.6 222.6  14.5
 9. 184.105.223.178                   0.3%   382   42.0  42.0  31.3 235.0  24.0
10. 184.105.222.41                    0.0%   382   68.5  72.3  51.6 222.1  18.8
11. 72.52.92.38                       0.0%   382  170.9 104.4  77.4 259.0  23.9
12. ???

I then tried traceroute, in case mtr was getting stuck on a
nonresponding hop with working hops beyond it.  No joy; traceroute
shows more or less[%] the same list of addresses, but then hops 12
through 30 are all no-response.

[%] There are some minor differences; for example, hop 6 is
69.196.136.138 instead of 69.196.136.48.  The hop 10 and 11 addresses,
in particular, are the same.

I am not in a position to tell whether it's Hurricane Electric or the
next hop that's blocking traffic here; I don't know whether the hop
after 72.52.92.38 would be another he.net host or not.

These experiments were done from 98.124.61.94.  Everything was legacy
IPv4, since members.iinet.net.au doesn't seem to have a current-version
IP address.  (Appropriate enough, for this list. :-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 08:30:48 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:30:48 -0400
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CANij+dd=4XhZfsBSPKPQTbxuYT60JXvR8UQ_XLMnOcoL8E=Jrg@mail.gmail.com>

Five years ago the paper stock was still available in the US, and you
could get cards from Cardamation as well.

--
Will

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:51 AM, Christian Corti
<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
>>
>> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
>> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
>> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
>> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
>> As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
>> can be reproduced. :-)
>
>
> Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed)
> cards, at least they did five years ago.
>
> Christian

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Fri Sep 11 08:33:05 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:33:05 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150911133305.GR6924@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> [150910 21:32]:
[..SNIP..]
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> 
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
> 
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether 
> it works or DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how 
> much of the US is being blocked.  Also, let me know where 
> you are.  I am assuming this is only a problem in the US, 
> but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make 
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO 
> being blocked.
[..SNIP..]

Hi Jon,

No problem getting there from the northeast US (New Hampshire) using a
Comcast business connection.

Todd

From andy.holt at tesco.net  Fri Sep 11 08:55:47 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:55:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911133305.GR6924@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <1607048381.294069.1441979747266.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>


* Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> [150910 21:32]:
[..SNIP..]
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> 
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
> 
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether 
> it works or DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how 
> much of the US is being blocked.  Also, let me know where 
> you are.  I am assuming this is only a problem in the US, 
> but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make 
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO 
> being blocked.
[..SNIP..]

No problem from my address in UK (Essex)

Have you tried any of the (many) proxy servers such as anonymouse.org 
or tried using tor.

anonymouse used to be able to get to pirate bay before the ".se" url got killed
don't need it for the current (".mn") incarnation but I still keep a collection of proxy server urls in my bookmarks "just in case!"

Andy

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Fri Sep 11 09:14:53 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:14:53 -0400
Subject: KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?
In-Reply-To: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55F2E1DD.5010004@compsys.to>

 >Holm Tiffe wrote:

>..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
>a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.
>
>Resorc /A give the following informations:
>
>.resorc /a
>
>RT-11XB (S) V05.07  
>
>Booted from DL0:RT11XB
>Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
>USR is set NOSWAP
>TT is set NOQUIET
>Indirect file abort level is ERROR
>Indirect file nesting depth is 3
>
>PDT 11/150 Processor
>FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
>Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
>KT11 Memory Management Unit
>Cache Memory
>50 Cycle System Clock
>
>Device I/O time-out support
>Multi-terminal support
>
>Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?
>Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.
>  
>
I suspect that somehow, somewhere you have managed
to include the RESORC.SAV file from V04.00 of RT-11
(which was released in 1980) or at least a version of RT-11
prior to V05.00 (which was released in 1983).

If I remember correctly, that version of RT-11 did not
include support for the PDP-11/73 CPU since I don't
think that any of the PDP-11/73 boards were released
until after 1980.

Furthermore, I just booted a standard distribution of
V05.07 of RT-11 using the standard RT11XM monitor
distributed by Mentec for V05.07 of RT-11.  I ran
using a PDP-11/73 CPU (actually under Ersatz-11)

I then MOUNTed a DSK file which contained the V04.00
RT-11 distribution:

MOUNT  LD0:  DU0:RTV4RK.00/NOWR
RUN  LD0:RESORC  /Z

and the result that you displayed was essentially duplicated,
with about the only difference being the Resident Monitor
base address since RT11XM was being used.

If you type:
RUN  SY:RESORC
and follow the command with 2 <RETURN>s, the version
of RESORC.SAV which is being used will be displayed.
It will probably say:
RESORC  V4.00

If you can somehow find the version of RESORC.SAV
that is distributed with V05.07 of RT-11 and type:
RUN  RESORC.SAV
The information for V05.07 is:
RESORC V05.21

Hopefully, the correct information will be displayed with
the version of RESORC.SAV which was distributed
with V05.07 of RT-11.

In case anyone else who is running RT-11 is reading this,
using RESORC.SAV from V04.00 while running any
version of RT-11 starting with V04.00 will produce the
same problem when a PDP-11/73 is used.  I have not
checked what occurs with earlier versions of RESORC
and RT-11.

>For an M8186 the output is more that what I've expected:
>
>.resorc /a
>
>RT-11XB (S) V05.07  
>
>Booted from DL0:RT11XB
>Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
>USR is set NOSWAP
>TT is set NOQUIET
>Indirect file abort level is ERROR
>Indirect file nesting depth is 3
>
>PDP 11/23 Processor
>FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
>Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
>KT11 Memory Management Unit
>50 Cycle System Clock
>
>Device I/O time-out support
>Multi-terminal support
>
>Regards,
>
>Holm
>
If you have any other questions, please ask.

Jerome Fine

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 09:36:15 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
Message-ID: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson elson

    > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the limited
    > memory was a big killer.

The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in
what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all
time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
reason you point out.)

	Noel

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 11 09:39:44 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:39:44 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Jon Elson elson
>
>      > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the limited
>      > memory was a big killer.
>
> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in
> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all
> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
> reason you point out.)

WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is 
a few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode allocation.

The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could 
not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits.

	Johnny


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 09:42:08 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:42:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
Message-ID: <20150911144208.58A1F18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Don North

    > Basically see no problems accessing any of the pages on sites.
    > ...
    > 12:  be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com 22.400ms asymm  8
    > 13:  no reply
    > 14:  no reply
    > 15:  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net 217.966ms asymm 19

Oh, that's really interesting. A bunch of us get as far as Cogentco, and then
it stops working. But you get through... which implies that the _route_ in
Cogentco to Ii.net is OK. Which in turn implies that it's Ii.net who are
blocking (via packet drop, I assume), based on the IP _source_ address.

So it sounds like the earlier post (too lazy to track it down) which says
this is Ii.net responding to complaints from others (since they haven't
blocked access to _all_ of ii.net, just that 'members' site) is right.

	Noel

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Fri Sep 11 09:46:14 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 07:46:14 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:32:11 -0500
Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> Hello, all,
> 
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
> as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his 
> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government 
> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content 
> providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at 
> least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home 
> (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages 
> at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be 
> accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world is 
> being affected.
> 
> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to 
> host the affected files to get around this problem.
> 
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

Works from Silicon Valley (Mountain View)

Lyle
-- 
73      AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Sep 11 09:49:00 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:49:00 -0600
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>>      > From: Jon Elson elson
>>
>>      > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the
>> limited
>>      > memory was a big killer.
>>
>> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in
>> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all
>> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
>> reason you point out.)
>>
>
> WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is a
> few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode allocation.
>
> The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could
> not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits.


I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it that
relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep. Then
it was... painful.

Warner

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 09:58:29 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:58:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <20150911145829.93DAE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ed Sharpe

    > well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins
    > how cards were punched!

Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good enough
for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:01:45 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:01:45 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <AE4E5109-6ABE-4B30-9E10-CEFB4E51CBA8@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:46 AM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:32:11 -0500
> Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hello, all,
>> 
>> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
>> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
>> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
>> as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his 
>> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government 
>> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content 
>> providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at 
>> least some sites in the US. ...
>> 
>> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to 
>> host the affected files to get around this problem.
>> 
>> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
>> the US, to check if they can view this page:
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> 
> Works from Silicon Valley (Mountain View)
> 
> Lyle

I tried "traceroute" from three places: a machine in Palo Alto (result: fail), my home firewall (result: works) and my office (result: fail).

The routes shown are utterly different.  The PA case shows just a few hops, into megapath.net, then no further.  The office goes into alter.net, then through a whole bunch of different hosts all in cogentco.com, then nothing.  And from home, I see a path through comcast.net, gtt.net, ii.net, then iinet.com.au and from there to the destination.

The "censorship or ..." notion may be someone's overheated imagination -- it looks more like there's a backbone routing issue.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:03:55 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:03:55 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25DA3817-C4CA-49FB-A8F9-73030942F197@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it that
> relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep. Then
> it was... painful.

Perhaps the program was too large.  But it may just be that the overlay structure was not right.  Overlays involve significant overhead, and it's well known that the flexibility of TKB can cost a lot.  (TKB itself is an example of that, which is why there was a button with the text "TKB forever... and ever... and ever...".)

For efficient overlays, RT-11 with Link tends to be better.  It's less flexible but that reduced flexibility enforces more care in overlay design, and the implementation is a whole lot faster.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:06:28 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:06:28 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150911145829.93DAE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150911145829.93DAE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <B83EFED8-21BD-4232-B917-15F648B98821@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Ed Sharpe
> 
>> well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins
>> how cards were punched!
> 
> Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good enough
> for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> 
>  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725

Is that TWO Linc-eight systems in the background???

	paul


From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep 11 10:06:29 2015
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:06:29 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <55F2EDF5.3020405@sbcglobal.net>

On 9/11/2015 7:46 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:32:11 -0500
> Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello, all,
>>
>> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really
>> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the
>> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au
>> as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his
>> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government
>> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content
>> providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at
>> least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home
>> (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages
>> at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be
>> accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world is
>> being affected.
>>
>> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to
>> host the affected files to get around this problem.
>>
>> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in
>> the US, to check if they can view this page:
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> Works from Silicon Valley (Mountain View)
>
> Lyle
But not from Santa Cruz, only about 30 miles away from Mtn. View.

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 11 10:15:30 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:15:30 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911144208.58A1F18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150911144208.58A1F18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F2F012.1000906@pico-systems.com>

On 09/11/2015 09:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Don North
>
>      > Basically see no problems accessing any of the pages on sites.
>      > ...
>      > 12:  be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com 22.400ms asymm  8
>      > 13:  no reply
>      > 14:  no reply
>      > 15:  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net 217.966ms asymm 19
>
> Oh, that's really interesting. A bunch of us get as far as Cogentco, and then
> it stops working. But you get through... which implies that the _route_ in
> Cogentco to Ii.net is OK. Which in turn implies that it's Ii.net who are
> blocking (via packet drop, I assume), based on the IP _source_ address.
>
> So it sounds like the earlier post (too lazy to track it down) which says
> this is Ii.net responding to complaints from others (since they haven't
> blocked access to _all_ of ii.net, just that 'members' site) is right.
>
> 	Noel
Not necessarily.  It may be possible that filtering 
software/hardware statistically let a few accesses get 
through. This may be intentional or just due to overloaded 
nodes.  But, YES, it IS very interesting, as so MANY others 
who could not access the members.iinet page were finding 
they got stopped at cogentco.

Jon


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 10:19:02 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:19:02 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150911151902.GA12383@lonesome.com>

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 08:32:11PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to check
> if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

The other day I was trying to access David Green's pages there.

I eventually wound up using the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150702221040/http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/index.html

mcl

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 11 10:19:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:19:49 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F2F115.4090604@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-11 16:49, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>>>       > From: Jon Elson elson
>>>
>>>       > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the
>>> limited
>>>       > memory was a big killer.
>>>
>>> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in
>>> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all
>>> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
>>> reason you point out.)
>>>
>>
>> WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is a
>> few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode allocation.
>>
>> The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could
>> not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits.
>
>
> I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it that
> relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep. Then
> it was... painful.

Uh? What do that have to do with the PDP-11 architecture? Overlays are a 
thing specific to the operating system and linker, and looks and works 
differently in different OSes on the PDP-11, if they have them at all.

Mind you, even having said that, overlays are just a userland 
implementation of demand paging. Conceptually they are dead easy.
Now, the overlay description language, as well as the capabilities in 
RSX, can make people seasick. But once you've worked with them for a 
while, you realized that most of the time it is not that tricky.

	Johnny


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 11 10:20:28 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:20:28 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911144208.58A1F18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150911144208.58A1F18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F2F13C.8020407@pico-systems.com>

THANKS to all of you great guys who have helped obtain data 
on this problem!

Here are some results:
For 26 users in the US and Canada, I get 11 that worked OK, 
and 14 that did not work.  Of the 14 that did not work,
6 (including me) got stopped at cogentco.

It seems that users in other countries had no problem 
(Sweden, Ireland, UK).

Thanks again for taking the time to help research!

Jon

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Sep 11 10:23:52 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:23:52 -0600
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <25DA3817-C4CA-49FB-A8F9-73030942F197@comcast.net>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <25DA3817-C4CA-49FB-A8F9-73030942F197@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqU1Yza+Ddi_smzKb+q17b4o6WzizwbHRdMVdVeOsKBew@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it
> that
> > relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep.
> Then
> > it was... painful.
>
> Perhaps the program was too large.  But it may just be that the overlay
> structure was not right.  Overlays involve significant overhead, and it's
> well known that the flexibility of TKB can cost a lot.  (TKB itself is an
> example of that, which is why there was a button with the text "TKB
> forever... and ever... and ever...".)
>
> For efficient overlays, RT-11 with Link tends to be better.  It's less
> flexible but that reduced flexibility enforces more care in overlay design,
> and the implementation is a whole lot faster.


True. We were running under RSTS-E and so had some more flexibility.
However, by the time we got to this overlay structure, we knew we'd done
something horribly wrong and spent several weeks slimming down the program,
reducing the number of parameters to some routines and redesigning some
code to have either simpler algorithms, or inlining some code. We slimmed
it by 30% but more importantly went from about 8 overlay depth to 3. Still
slow, but it was acceptably slow rather than insane.

Warner

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:27:04 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:27:04 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <AE4E5109-6ABE-4B30-9E10-CEFB4E51CBA8@comcast.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <AE4E5109-6ABE-4B30-9E10-CEFB4E51CBA8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ED375DC3-2BCD-4535-ADE9-8A9CD30217C5@comcast.net>


>> 
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:32:11 -0500
>> Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello, all,
>>> 
>>> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
>>> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
>>> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
>>> as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his 
>>> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government 
>>> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content 
>>> providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at 
>>> least some sites in the US. ...
>>> 
>>> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to 
>>> host the affected files to get around this problem.
>>> 
>>> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
>>> the US, to check if they can view this page:
>>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

FWIW: when I run into a web site issue due to filtering (or suspicion of same), I got to TOR.  Apart from the confidentiality benefits it offers, you also get access from a completely different part of the world.  An unpredictable place, admittedly.

	paul


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 10:28:04 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:28:04 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
Message-ID: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>

So I have finally been prodded by some people to put together a web
page for the G-15 computer.  As well, I am going to put up information
about the Rice Research Computer (later known as the R1), and its
intended succesor, the R2.

Right now my web pages are pretty skeletal and mostly consist of
some old G-15 documentation scans I did in early 2000.  Apparently
I have some things that are not on Bitsavers (yet).  I have at least
one more document that I need to scan, the Technical Manual.

I do have some R1 documentation which I intend to scan and then send
to either CHM or Rice University Fondren Library.

To some of you that I have already contacted off-list, this will be
duplicate information.  Sorry about that.  To the others, please let me
know if you have any information about these computers that you would
be willing to share publicly.

Also, beta-testers of the website would be appreciated; email me off-
list for the URLs.  I mean, it it _really_ skeletal (e.g. 2 days old.)

mcl

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:28:54 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:28:54 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqU1Yza+Ddi_smzKb+q17b4o6WzizwbHRdMVdVeOsKBew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <25DA3817-C4CA-49FB-A8F9-73030942F197@comcast.net>
 <CANCZdfqU1Yza+Ddi_smzKb+q17b4o6WzizwbHRdMVdVeOsKBew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43DC88D3-7833-447E-9A50-665DC00BCBF2@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> For efficient overlays, RT-11 with Link tends to be better.  It's less
>> flexible but that reduced flexibility enforces more care in overlay design,
>> and the implementation is a whole lot faster.
> 
> 
> True. We were running under RSTS-E and so had some more flexibility.
> However, by the time we got to this overlay structure, we knew we'd done
> something horribly wrong and spent several weeks slimming down the program,
> reducing the number of parameters to some routines and redesigning some
> code to have either simpler algorithms, or inlining some code. We slimmed
> it by 30% but more importantly went from about 8 overlay depth to 3. Still
> slow, but it was acceptably slow rather than insane.

The nice thing about RSTS/E is that you can use either the RT11 or the RSX tools, according to which is the best answer for what you're doing.  And that gives you a choice of overlay schemes (regions with LINK, or trees with TKB).

	paul



From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 11 10:31:51 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:31:51 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <43DC88D3-7833-447E-9A50-665DC00BCBF2@comcast.net>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <25DA3817-C4CA-49FB-A8F9-73030942F197@comcast.net>
 <CANCZdfqU1Yza+Ddi_smzKb+q17b4o6WzizwbHRdMVdVeOsKBew@mail.gmail.com>
 <43DC88D3-7833-447E-9A50-665DC00BCBF2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F2F3E7.2090707@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-11 17:28, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> For efficient overlays, RT-11 with Link tends to be better.  It's less
>>> flexible but that reduced flexibility enforces more care in overlay design,
>>> and the implementation is a whole lot faster.
>>
>>
>> True. We were running under RSTS-E and so had some more flexibility.
>> However, by the time we got to this overlay structure, we knew we'd done
>> something horribly wrong and spent several weeks slimming down the program,
>> reducing the number of parameters to some routines and redesigning some
>> code to have either simpler algorithms, or inlining some code. We slimmed
>> it by 30% but more importantly went from about 8 overlay depth to 3. Still
>> slow, but it was acceptably slow rather than insane.
>
> The nice thing about RSTS/E is that you can use either the RT11 or the RSX tools, according to which is the best answer for what you're doing.  And that gives you a choice of overlay schemes (regions with LINK, or trees with TKB).

True. However, depending on which language they were using, that could 
limit them to just one or the other RTS. If your compiler generated code 
for RSX, you still could not use the RT-11 linker.

	Johnny


From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Sep 11 10:33:36 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:33:36 -0600
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2F115.4090604@update.uu.se>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F2F115.4090604@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoiWGqm3kn4ux2SxOhb61L2n1f7QTM=TwT0VWd962ujWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-11 16:49, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>>
>>>       > From: Jon Elson elson
>>>>
>>>>       > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the
>>>> limited
>>>>       > memory was a big killer.
>>>>
>>>> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted
>>>> in
>>>> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of
>>>> all
>>>> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
>>>> reason you point out.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is a
>>> few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode
>>> allocation.
>>>
>>> The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could
>>> not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of
>>> bits.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it that
>> relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep. Then
>> it was... painful.
>>
>
> Uh? What do that have to do with the PDP-11 architecture? Overlays are a
> thing specific to the operating system and linker, and looks and works
> differently in different OSes on the PDP-11, if they have them at all.
>
> Mind you, even having said that, overlays are just a userland
> implementation of demand paging. Conceptually they are dead easy.
> Now, the overlay description language, as well as the capabilities in RSX,
> can make people seasick. But once you've worked with them for a while, you
> realized that most of the time it is not that tricky.


Well, the 16-bit address space forced a maximum limit on the text size of
the program that could be in memory at any time. This made the overlay
stuff trickier, since you had to use some kind of overlays (either managed
by the linker or the OS or some experimental home-grown stuff we tried).
Sure, the details were OS specific, but the tight memory of the
architecture forced some kind of mechanism. If your text space was <64k,
then OS demand paging was good. But if you needed more, there were no real
good choices.

Warner

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 11 10:40:43 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:40:43 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55F2F5FB.5090303@charter.net>

On 9/10/2015 8:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> 
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
> 
> 

I cannot make a connection.  My DNS is able to resolve the address.

ISP is Charter cable, Madison WI (Fitchburg, from the DNS name), then to
Eau Claire WI, then Chicago, IL where it looks like they apparently peer
with Cogent.

As with others, the traceroute stopped at Cogent.  Note that this may
mean that the next hop after that blocks all of the packets or it could
mean that the next hop is blocking just the traceroute packets.

JRJ

 1  * * *
 2  dtr01ftbgwi-tge-0-6-0-3.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.25.58)  15.413 ms
 16.531 ms  16.524 ms
 3  crr01ftbgwi-bue-4.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.18.108)  23.528 ms
21.479 ms  23.501 ms
 4  crr01euclwi-bue-1.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.16.77)  21.431 ms * *
 5  bbr01euclwi-bue-4.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.2.4)  21.157 ms  21.153
ms  21.318 ms
 6  bbr02euclwi-bue-5.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.0.7)  25.319 ms  16.876
ms  22.938 ms
 7  bbr01chcgil-bue-1.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.9)  25.460 ms  26.958
ms  23.483 ms
 8  bbr02chcgil-bue-6.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.67)  26.751 ms
27.724 ms  27.695 ms
 9  te0-18-0-2.ccr41.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.122.181.65)  25.728 ms
 30.118 ms  28.197 ms
10  be2216.ccr41.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.201)  27.315 ms
27.427 ms be2217.ccr42.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.205)  27.389 ms
11  be2156.ccr21.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.85)  41.659 ms
be2157.ccr22.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.117)  40.758 ms  38.666 ms
12  be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  47.510 ms
be2433.ccr22.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.213)  53.865 ms
be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  52.515 ms
13  be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  53.141 ms
be2443.ccr22.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.44.229)  55.853 ms
be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  55.407 ms
14  be2066.ccr22.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.54)  86.437 ms
be2065.ccr21.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.66)  89.222 ms  87.085 ms
15  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  94.160 ms
be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)  90.385 ms  88.573 ms
16  * * *
17  * * *
18  * * *
19  * *^C


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 11 10:41:06 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 17:41:06 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoiWGqm3kn4ux2SxOhb61L2n1f7QTM=TwT0VWd962ujWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F2F115.4090604@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfoiWGqm3kn4ux2SxOhb61L2n1f7QTM=TwT0VWd962ujWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F2F612.40807@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-11 17:33, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-09-11 16:49, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        > From: Jon Elson elson
>>>>>
>>>>>        > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the
>>>>> limited
>>>>>        > memory was a big killer.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted
>>>>> in
>>>>> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of
>>>>> all
>>>>> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
>>>>> reason you point out.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is a
>>>> few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode
>>>> allocation.
>>>>
>>>> The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could
>>>> not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of
>>>> bits.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I loved the PDP-11 architecture, until I wanted to run programs on it that
>>> relied on the overlay manager and the overlays got to be 8 or 9 deep. Then
>>> it was... painful.
>>>
>>
>> Uh? What do that have to do with the PDP-11 architecture? Overlays are a
>> thing specific to the operating system and linker, and looks and works
>> differently in different OSes on the PDP-11, if they have them at all.
>>
>> Mind you, even having said that, overlays are just a userland
>> implementation of demand paging. Conceptually they are dead easy.
>> Now, the overlay description language, as well as the capabilities in RSX,
>> can make people seasick. But once you've worked with them for a while, you
>> realized that most of the time it is not that tricky.
>
>
> Well, the 16-bit address space forced a maximum limit on the text size of
> the program that could be in memory at any time. This made the overlay
> stuff trickier, since you had to use some kind of overlays (either managed
> by the linker or the OS or some experimental home-grown stuff we tried).
> Sure, the details were OS specific, but the tight memory of the
> architecture forced some kind of mechanism. If your text space was <64k,
> then OS demand paging was good. But if you needed more, there were no real
> good choices.

Ok. Well, yes, I believe we all agree that a larger address space would 
have been nice. Even DEC noted that one pretty soon.
Just like Jon Elson said initially. :-)

Overlays were a way to try getting around the address space limitations. 
I still would not consider overlays as any part of the PDP-11 
architecture. But maybe that is just me.

	Johnny


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:52:10 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:52:10 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2F5FB.5090303@charter.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2F5FB.5090303@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5A0C6803-6FDB-494F-993F-A3226DA1581A@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:40 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
> On 9/10/2015 8:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>> 
>> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
>> check if they can view this page:
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>> 
>> 
> 
> I cannot make a connection.  My DNS is able to resolve the address.
> 
> ISP is Charter cable, Madison WI (Fitchburg, from the DNS name), then to
> Eau Claire WI, then Chicago, IL where it looks like they apparently peer
> with Cogent.
> 
> As with others, the traceroute stopped at Cogent.  Note that this may
> mean that the next hop after that blocks all of the packets or it could
> mean that the next hop is blocking just the traceroute packets.
> 
> JRJ
> 
> 1  * * *
> 2  dtr01ftbgwi-tge-0-6-0-3.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.25.58)  15.413 ms
> 16.531 ms  16.524 ms
> 3  crr01ftbgwi-bue-4.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.18.108)  23.528 ms
> 21.479 ms  23.501 ms
> 4  crr01euclwi-bue-1.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.16.77)  21.431 ms * *
> 5  bbr01euclwi-bue-4.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.2.4)  21.157 ms  21.153
> ms  21.318 ms
> 6  bbr02euclwi-bue-5.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.0.7)  25.319 ms  16.876
> ms  22.938 ms
> 7  bbr01chcgil-bue-1.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.9)  25.460 ms  26.958
> ms  23.483 ms
> 8  bbr02chcgil-bue-6.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.67)  26.751 ms
> 27.724 ms  27.695 ms
> 9  te0-18-0-2.ccr41.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.122.181.65)  25.728 ms
> 30.118 ms  28.197 ms
> 10  be2216.ccr41.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.201)  27.315 ms
> 27.427 ms be2217.ccr42.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.205)  27.389 ms
> 11  be2156.ccr21.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.85)  41.659 ms
> be2157.ccr22.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.117)  40.758 ms  38.666 ms
> 12  be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  47.510 ms
> be2433.ccr22.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.213)  53.865 ms
> be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  52.515 ms
> 13  be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  53.141 ms
> be2443.ccr22.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.44.229)  55.853 ms
> be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  55.407 ms
> 14  be2066.ccr22.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.54)  86.437 ms
> be2065.ccr21.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.66)  89.222 ms  87.085 ms
> 15  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  94.160 ms
> be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)  90.385 ms  88.573 ms
> 16  * * *
> 17  * * *
> 18  * * *
> 19  * *^C

I saw the same sort of thing but I let traceroute keep running.  The result is that it started giving real answers again just one or two hops later.

Conclusion: hops 16-20ish are blocking traceroute packets.  Later hops aren't.

It's hard to be patient sometimes, but while * * * sometimes indicates "this is as far as you get" it may also indicate just a few nodes that are not cooperating with traceroute on a functional route.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 10:58:41 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:58:41 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2F612.40807@update.uu.se>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfq--Dgzybvz6PmZAVU5v=SQjHHVzWdM8ZN6_dgDTXu26Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F2F115.4090604@update.uu.se>
 <CANCZdfoiWGqm3kn4ux2SxOhb61L2n1f7QTM=TwT0VWd962ujWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F2F612.40807@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <0388703D-6964-4D0C-8FC7-1D83B3E35AF0@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Overlays were a way to try getting around the address space limitations. I still would not consider overlays as any part of the PDP-11 architecture. But maybe that is just me.

I agree.  You can use overlays on any hardware platform that has random access secondary storage.  You need it if your programs are larger than your primary memory.  It's found on many machines prior to the arrival of really large memories and address spaces.  And you could use it even there -- there's nothing that prevents the use of overlays on a VAX, for example, though in practice I doubt it has been done.

The main alternative is paging, which is easier to use at the expense of lower performance.  That follows from the fact that paging is done by an automatic mechanism that isn't aware of what the application is doing, while overlays are designed by a programmer who is (usually) smarter than the paging automaton.  There are in-between approaches, where code and data are broken into fixed size pages that are paged in and out automatically, but the assignment of bits of code or data to pages is optimized by the programmer to improve performance.  The THE operating system is a nice early (mid 1960s) example of this.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 11:01:01 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:01:01 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <5A0C6803-6FDB-494F-993F-A3226DA1581A@comcast.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2F5FB.5090303@charter.net>
 <5A0C6803-6FDB-494F-993F-A3226DA1581A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E6BA611F-E26E-466A-B803-F177E408461D@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:40 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On 9/10/2015 8:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
>>> check if they can view this page:
>>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> I cannot make a connection.  My DNS is able to resolve the address.
>> 
>> ISP is Charter cable, Madison WI (Fitchburg, from the DNS name), then to
>> Eau Claire WI, then Chicago, IL where it looks like they apparently peer
>> with Cogent.
>> 
>> As with others, the traceroute stopped at Cogent.  Note that this may
>> mean that the next hop after that blocks all of the packets or it could
>> mean that the next hop is blocking just the traceroute packets.
>> 
>> JRJ
>> 
>> 1  * * *
>> 2  dtr01ftbgwi-tge-0-6-0-3.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.25.58)  15.413 ms
>> 16.531 ms  16.524 ms
>> 3  crr01ftbgwi-bue-4.ftbg.wi.charter.com (96.34.18.108)  23.528 ms
>> 21.479 ms  23.501 ms
>> 4  crr01euclwi-bue-1.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.16.77)  21.431 ms * *
>> 5  bbr01euclwi-bue-4.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.2.4)  21.157 ms  21.153
>> ms  21.318 ms
>> 6  bbr02euclwi-bue-5.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.0.7)  25.319 ms  16.876
>> ms  22.938 ms
>> 7  bbr01chcgil-bue-1.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.9)  25.460 ms  26.958
>> ms  23.483 ms
>> 8  bbr02chcgil-bue-6.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.67)  26.751 ms
>> 27.724 ms  27.695 ms
>> 9  te0-18-0-2.ccr41.ord03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.122.181.65)  25.728 ms
>> 30.118 ms  28.197 ms
>> 10  be2216.ccr41.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.201)  27.315 ms
>> 27.427 ms be2217.ccr42.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.24.205)  27.389 ms
>> 11  be2156.ccr21.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.85)  41.659 ms
>> be2157.ccr22.mci01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.6.117)  40.758 ms  38.666 ms
>> 12  be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  47.510 ms
>> be2433.ccr22.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.213)  53.865 ms
>> be2432.ccr21.dfw01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.3.133)  52.515 ms
>> 13  be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  53.141 ms
>> be2443.ccr22.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.44.229)  55.853 ms
>> be2441.ccr21.iah01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.41.65)  55.407 ms
>> 14  be2066.ccr22.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.7.54)  86.437 ms
>> be2065.ccr21.lax01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.66)  89.222 ms  87.085 ms
>> 15  be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)  94.160 ms
>> be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)  90.385 ms  88.573 ms
>> 16  * * *
>> 17  * * *
>> 18  * * *
>> 19  * *^C
> 
> I saw the same sort of thing but I let traceroute keep running.  The result is that it started giving real answers again just one or two hops later.
> 
> Conclusion: hops 16-20ish are blocking traceroute packets.  Later hops aren't.
> 
> It's hard to be patient sometimes, but while * * * sometimes indicates "this is as far as you get" it may also indicate just a few nodes that are not cooperating with traceroute on a functional route.

Sorry, I misremembered the different traceroute runs.  The one that goes into cogentco fails for me too, all the way to 64 hops.  But I had a different traceroute run from a different location that shows gtt.net, then 5 lines of * * *, then ii.net and on to the destination.  So * * * is not necessarily the sign of a black hole, though it can be that.

	paul



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 11 11:27:47 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:27:47 -0700
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>

On 9/11/15 8:28 AM, Mark Linimon wrote:

> I do have some R1 documentation which I intend to scan and then send
> to either CHM or Rice University Fondren Library.
>

A volunteer at CHM (Paul McJones) is scanning R1 documentation currently.




From andy.holt at tesco.net  Fri Sep 11 11:31:17 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:31:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Overlays - was Re: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking
 problem ?
In-Reply-To: <0388703D-6964-4D0C-8FC7-1D83B3E35AF0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <438729209.295528.1441989077877.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, 11 September, 2015 4:58:41 PM

> I agree.  You can use overlays on any hardware platform that has random access secondary storage.  
> You need it if your programs are larger than your primary memory.  ?

Overlays were also commonly used on Mag Tape systems before disk became common.

The George 1 and 2 operating systems for the ICL1900 series (and many compilers) came in
both disk overlaid and tape overlaid versions 
(e.g. the Fortran compiler XFAE was disk overlaid, XFAM was tape overlaid but otherwise
identical - both were designed for 16K word systems allowing about 3K for Exec and the "run-time"
overlay of George.)

Andy

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 11:31:24 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:31:24 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any operational G-15's out there? Seems like this would be a good
model to restore/demonstrate that doesn't come with all the usual baggage
of a first gen machine (exotic power, A/C requirements, thousands of tubes,
etc). -C

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:27 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 9/11/15 8:28 AM, Mark Linimon wrote:
>
> I do have some R1 documentation which I intend to scan and then send
>> to either CHM or Rice University Fondren Library.
>>
>>
> A volunteer at CHM (Paul McJones) is scanning R1 documentation currently.
>
>
>
>

From go at ao-cs.com  Fri Sep 11 11:40:05 2015
From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:40:05 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>

I fired up a proxy on amazon ec2 virginia this morning and it works fine 
from there.  Strange geographic filtering...
-Gary

On 09/10/2015 09:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
> The amazon instance is in the US West region (north-central Oregon I 
> presume.)
>
> Tomorrow I'll fire up a proxy on the east coast and see what happens.
>
> -Gary
>


From cctalk at snarc.net  Fri Sep 11 11:44:56 2015
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:44:56 -0400
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
 <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F30508.2030801@snarc.net>


> Are there any operational G-15's out there? Seems like this would be a good model to restore/demonstrate that doesn't come with all the usual baggage of a first gen machine (exotic power, A/C requirements, thousands of tubes,
> etc). -C

MARCH's is untested. We plan to restore it .... one day.

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Sep 11 11:47:38 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:47:38 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
 <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <008c01d0ecb1$9238b1e0$b6aa15a0$@net>

> "There is no such thing as 'the cloud', it's just someone else's
> computer."
> 
> Love that quote... so true... and I sell cloud services ;)

Jay,

I am going to have to use that quote with my friends who like having their life on the cloud...

-Ali



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep 11 11:51:07 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 18:51:07 +0200
Subject: KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?
In-Reply-To: <55F2E1DD.5010004@compsys.to>
References: <20150910164115.GB61403@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F2E1DD.5010004@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20150911165107.GA65414@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> >Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> >..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
> >a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.
> >
> >Resorc /A give the following informations:
> >
> >.resorc /a
> >
> >RT-11XB (S) V05.07  
> >
> >Booted from DL0:RT11XB
> >Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
> >USR is set NOSWAP
> >TT is set NOQUIET
> >Indirect file abort level is ERROR
> >Indirect file nesting depth is 3
> >
> >PDT 11/150 Processor
> >FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
> >Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
> >KT11 Memory Management Unit
> >Cache Memory
> >50 Cycle System Clock
> >
> >Device I/O time-out support
> >Multi-terminal support
> >
> >Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?
> >Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.
> > 
> >
> I suspect that somehow, somewhere you have managed
> to include the RESORC.SAV file from V04.00 of RT-11
> (which was released in 1980) or at least a version of RT-11
> prior to V05.00 (which was released in 1983).
> 
> If I remember correctly, that version of RT-11 did not
> include support for the PDP-11/73 CPU since I don't
> think that any of the PDP-11/73 boards were released
> until after 1980.
> 
> Furthermore, I just booted a standard distribution of
> V05.07 of RT-11 using the standard RT11XM monitor
> distributed by Mentec for V05.07 of RT-11.  I ran
> using a PDP-11/73 CPU (actually under Ersatz-11)
> 
> I then MOUNTed a DSK file which contained the V04.00
> RT-11 distribution:
> 
> MOUNT  LD0:  DU0:RTV4RK.00/NOWR
> RUN  LD0:RESORC  /Z
> 
> and the result that you displayed was essentially duplicated,
> with about the only difference being the Resident Monitor
> base address since RT11XM was being used.
> 
> If you type:
> RUN  SY:RESORC
> and follow the command with 2 <RETURN>s, the version
> of RESORC.SAV which is being used will be displayed.
> It will probably say:
> RESORC  V4.00
[..]
> If you have any other questions, please ask.
> 
> Jerome Fine

You are exactly right!

It displays V4.00.

I must take a look to my old SIMH installation since I wrote the
tapes from which I've installed the disk from there..
IMHO I've donloaded it with exactly that resorc.sav.

I'll try to find another one .. and a way to get it onto the disk finally.
As far as I remember I had an SIMH installation on my previous PC
and wrote tape files there that I copied to real tapes from which I finally
installed that RT11. (I have the disk contents of the previous PC archived
on tapes)

Thanks Jerome!

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From go at ao-cs.com  Fri Sep 11 11:55:25 2015
From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 09:55:25 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com> <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>
Message-ID: <55F3077D.1020905@ao-cs.com>

Works fine, save for the individual web-ring pages not being able to 
populate the buttons correctly. Going directly to a members... page does 
work from this proxy.

-Gary

On 09/11/2015 09:40 AM, Gary Oliver wrote:
> I fired up a proxy on amazon ec2 virginia this morning and it works 
> fine from there.  Strange geographic filtering...
> -Gary
>
> On 09/10/2015 09:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
>> The amazon instance is in the US West region (north-central Oregon I 
>> presume.)
>>
>> Tomorrow I'll fire up a proxy on the east coast and see what happens.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 11:58:16 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:58:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
Message-ID: <20150911165816.B50F118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > so MANY others who could not access the members.iinet page were finding
    > they got stopped at cogentco.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, to be precise 'Cogentco was the last node on the route which
responded'.

It's impossible to say whether i) that node tossed packets that tried to go
further; ii) it forwarded them to some other node (identity unknown) which
did toss them (and didn't allow/handle traceroute), etc.

One can't draw any conclusions about whether it's i) from the fact that it's
_also_ still responding to traceroute packets sent to that address: one would
have to know whether it does the a) 'is this packet to a destination I'm
filtering' check before it does the b) 'I decremented the TTL and it's now
zero', or the other way around. If b) it could be the node that's dropping
the packets.

But given that other 'last hops' are also producing similar results, I'm
still thinking it's Ii.net which is tossing the packets, not the 'last hop'
one can see on traceroutes.

	Noel

From mattislind at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 12:16:41 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:16:41 +0200
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <B83EFED8-21BD-4232-B917-15F648B98821@comcast.net>
References: <20150911145829.93DAE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <B83EFED8-21BD-4232-B917-15F648B98821@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CABr82SKSvrwSMO1iv_3FODs4YZjjSe_+jggcHKCdMLtVc5nQGQ@mail.gmail.com>

2015-09-11 17:06 GMT+02:00 Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>:

>
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Ed Sharpe
> >
> >> well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins
> >> how cards were punched!
> >
> > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
> enough
> > for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> >
> >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>
> Is that TWO Linc-eight systems in the background???
>
>         paul
>
>
There also seems to be a TC0x controller and a TU55 drive in the background
of some of the other pictures.

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 12:22:28 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:22:28 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <B83EFED8-21BD-4232-B917-15F648B98821@comcast.net>
References: <20150911145829.93DAE18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <B83EFED8-21BD-4232-B917-15F648B98821@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcOQZWMMX8L6q3ojH8kMnJFEDu+Qjtpd-KWesJ5VeQ1dA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, about those...

Warning! Warning!

--
Will
On Sep 11, 2015 11:06 AM, "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Ed Sharpe
> >
> >> well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins
> >> how cards were punched!
> >
> > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
> enough
> > for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> >
> >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>
> Is that TWO Linc-eight systems in the background???
>
>         paul
>
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Sep 11 12:28:27 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:28:27 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <13f0aa.1431dab8.4324693b@aol.com>

who could be lucky enough to own 2 link 8s?
Ed@
 
 
In a message dated 9/11/2015 10:22:34 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
wdonzelli at gmail.com writes:

Yeah,  about those...

Warning! Warning!

--
Will
On Sep 11, 2015  11:06 AM, "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net>  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Noel Chiappa  <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >>  From: Ed Sharpe
> >
> >> well SMECC needs one hopefully  to make work so we can show the 
youn'ins
> >> how cards were  punched!
> >
> > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP  was looking for, but good
> enough
> > for you all, I expect)  for a not insane amount of money:
> >
> >   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>
> Is that TWO Linc-eight  systems in the background???
>
>          paul
>
>


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 11 12:36:26 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 13:36:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
Message-ID: <20150911173626.9097918C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Johnny Billquist

    > it really is a few bits short of perfect ...
    > .. when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could not
    > retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits.

Well, if they'd tried to keep the same general layout, I don't think EIS,
floating point, etc would have all fit in 16 bits. Maybe they should have
made it a 18-bit machine? ;-)

But I keep circling back to the observation that the -11 architecture's
incredible flexibility/complexity ratio happened precisely _because_ it had to
be crammed into 16 bits (along with a big dollop of genius :-). Given that I
think the big challenge of the next generation of computer science is going to
be managing complexity, it's too bad we don't teach more young CS students the
-11 and UnixV6 - to show them just how much you _can_ do, with how _little_,
if you put your mind to it.

    > I still would not consider overlays as any part of the PDP-11
    > architecture. But maybe that is just me.

No, I agree with you 100%. Plenty of PDP-11 OS's did not support them.

	Noel

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 11 12:41:16 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:41:16 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <5A0C6803-6FDB-494F-993F-A3226DA1581A@comcast.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2F5FB.5090303@charter.net>
 <5A0C6803-6FDB-494F-993F-A3226DA1581A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F3123C.7070304@charter.net>

On 9/11/2015 10:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 11:40 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I cannot make a connection.  My DNS is able to resolve the address.
>>
> 
> I saw the same sort of thing but I let traceroute keep running.  The result is that it started giving real answers again just one or two hops later.
> 
> Conclusion: hops 16-20ish are blocking traceroute packets.  Later hops aren't.
> 
> It's hard to be patient sometimes, but while * * * sometimes indicates "this is as far as you get" it may also indicate just a few nodes that are not cooperating with traceroute on a functional route.
> 
> 	paul
> 
> 

Not me.

16  * * *
17  * * *
18  * * *
19  * * *
20  * * *
21  * * *
22  * * *
23  * * *
24  * * *
25  * * *
26  * * *
27  * * *
28  * * *
29  * * *
30  * * *

Also, if an ISP is actually blocking traceroute packets, then the trace
will STOP THERE - it can't get past that point.

JRJ


From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 11 12:44:12 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:44:12 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <20150911165816.B50F118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150911165816.B50F118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F312EC.1060309@charter.net>



On 9/11/2015 11:58 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Jon Elson
> 
>     > so MANY others who could not access the members.iinet page were finding
>     > they got stopped at cogentco.
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Well, to be precise 'Cogentco was the last node on the route which
> responded'.
> 
> It's impossible to say whether i) that node tossed packets that tried to go
> further; ii) it forwarded them to some other node (identity unknown) which
> did toss them (and didn't allow/handle traceroute), etc.
> 

Strictly true.  However if Cogent were blocking them, they would most
likely block them at *ingress* rather than egress - more efficient.  My
guess is that it is the next node - the first unidentified node - that
is doing the blocking.

> One can't draw any conclusions about whether it's i) from the fact that it's
> _also_ still responding to traceroute packets sent to that address: one would
> have to know whether it does the a) 'is this packet to a destination I'm
> filtering' check before it does the b) 'I decremented the TTL and it's now
> zero', or the other way around. If b) it could be the node that's dropping
> the packets.
> 
> But given that other 'last hops' are also producing similar results, I'm
> still thinking it's Ii.net which is tossing the packets, not the 'last hop'
> one can see on traceroutes.

I expect that is correct.

JRJ

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Sep 11 13:18:08 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dd=4XhZfsBSPKPQTbxuYT60JXvR8UQ_XLMnOcoL8E=Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55F16BA7.40401@dds.nl>
 <CAG_uPVE3qiuN9sptcpNwLYqW7Ecp1UTaQZB2r35tWNu0GyOSPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F1A7C5.1070203@dds.nl> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509110944260.26847@linuxserv.home>
 <CANij+dd=4XhZfsBSPKPQTbxuYT60JXvR8UQ_XLMnOcoL8E=Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509111117390.10654@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, William Donzelli wrote:
> Five years ago the paper stock was still available in the US, and you
> could get cards from Cardamation as well.

A lot of bad things have happened in the last five years.




From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 11 13:24:47 2015
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:24:47 -0700
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>

There was a 'slice' of the R1 floating about with some friends of mine in Houston.  It was about the size and shape of the 2001 monolith.  From what I was told, it represented one register, probably a byte, and constructed of about 100 vacuum tubes.  It served as a conversation piece and a coffee table (beer table) at a CAD rep firm, later sat for a few years in a friends garage next to Billy Gibbons twin red Thunderbirds (he was a collector of toys like this).

This particular piece of the R1 now sits in the Rice Library in the Woodson Research Center.  I encourage anyone while in Houston to go have a look, the construction is a work of art, and beautiful.

Randy

> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:28:04 -0500
> From: linimon at lonesome.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
> CC: linimon at lonesome.com
> 
> So I have finally been prodded by some people to put together a web
> page for the G-15 computer.  As well, I am going to put up information
> about the Rice Research Computer (later known as the R1), and its
> intended succesor, the R2.
> 
> Right now my web pages are pretty skeletal and mostly consist of
> some old G-15 documentation scans I did in early 2000.  Apparently
> I have some things that are not on Bitsavers (yet).  I have at least
> one more document that I need to scan, the Technical Manual.
> 
> I do have some R1 documentation which I intend to scan and then send
> to either CHM or Rice University Fondren Library.
> 
> To some of you that I have already contacted off-list, this will be
> duplicate information.  Sorry about that.  To the others, please let me
> know if you have any information about these computers that you would
> be willing to share publicly.
> 
> Also, beta-testers of the website would be appreciated; email me off-
> list for the URLs.  I mean, it it _really_ skeletal (e.g. 2 days old.)
> 
> mcl
 		 	   		  

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Sep 11 13:47:40 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:47:40 -0600
Subject: PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
References: <20150911143615.D13B318C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F2E7B0.1000804@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55F321CC.30306@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/11/2015 8:39 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-11 16:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>      > From: Jon Elson elson
>>
>>      > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the
>> limited
>>      > memory was a big killer.
>>
>> The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in
>> what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all
>> time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the
>> reason you point out.)
>
> WHile I agree that the PDP-11 is a wonderful architecture, it really is
> a few bits short of perfect, both for addressing, and for opcode
> allocation.

NOW if the had made the PDP 11 - 18 bits I think we could have had a 
winner. It is the loss of two address bits that is the problem with 16
bits.

> The is obvious when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could
> not retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits.

Too bad we got the 8086 rather than PDP-11 style (simplified design?) 
for 8/16 bit CPU.

>      Johnny
>
Ben.



From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Fri Sep 11 14:03:34 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:03:34 +0000
Subject: Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Dave G4UGM
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 12:06 PM

>> From: Liam Proven
>> Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17

>> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

>>> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs with
>>> were "COLOUR PENCILS".

>> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper,
>> old-fashioned-way. ;?)

> I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in English.

Correct.  "Colour" reflects Norman French, "color" reflects Latin.

> It was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an
> attempt to "Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up" English and Webster
> who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today....

However, it was far earlier than the Victorians.  Noah Webster (1758-1843)
only overlaps the Victorian era by 6 years; he was reacting against the
aristocratic spelling norms of the 17th and 18th centuries, when Latin and
Greek were held to be more important than English in the learning of the
latter language.  His spelling book was originally published in 1783.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 11 16:43:52 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 14:43:52 -0700
Subject: Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <55F34B18.9090203@sydex.com>

On 09/11/2015 12:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

> However, it was far earlier than the Victorians.  Noah Webster
> (1758-1843) only overlaps the Victorian era by 6 years; he was
> reacting against the aristocratic spelling norms of the 17th and 18th
> centuries, when Latin and Greek were held to be more important than
> English in the learning of the latter language.  His spelling book
> was originally published in 1783.


It should be noted that neither Webster, nor Col. McCormick (he of the 
Chicago Tribune simplified spelling) got all of what they wanted.

Webster wanted spellings of "ake", "soop", "cloke", "wimmen"...

The NEA in the 1890s accounted for "catalog", "prolog", "program"...

Then there was the Simplified Spelling Board of 1906, advocated by 
Andrew Carnegie and Theodore Roosevelt.  Congress didn't much care for 
the 300-word list, but some spellings made it into modern usage. 
"Meter", "maneuver", "orthopedic", "omelet", "sulfate", "wagon" are 
among those.

Thus, US spelling has been a work in progress.

To their credit, even the English have adopted some of these.  How many 
British write "aera" for "era" nowadays?

--Chuck




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Sep 11 17:58:12 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 15:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]
In-Reply-To: <55F34B18.9090203@sydex.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <55F34B18.9090203@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509111557060.1235@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/11/2015 12:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>
>> However, it was far earlier than the Victorians.  Noah Webster
>> (1758-1843) only overlaps the Victorian era by 6 years; he was
>> reacting against the aristocratic spelling norms of the 17th and 18th
>> centuries, when Latin and Greek were held to be more important than
>> English in the learning of the latter language.  His spelling book
>> was originally published in 1783.
>
>
> It should be noted that neither Webster, nor Col. McCormick (he of the 
> Chicago Tribune simplified spelling) got all of what they wanted.
>
> Webster wanted spellings of "ake", "soop", "cloke", "wimmen"...
>
> The NEA in the 1890s accounted for "catalog", "prolog", "program"...
>
> Then there was the Simplified Spelling Board of 1906, advocated by Andrew 
> Carnegie and Theodore Roosevelt.  Congress didn't much care for the 300-word 
> list, but some spellings made it into modern usage. "Meter", "maneuver", 
> "orthopedic", "omelet", "sulfate", "wagon" are among those.
>
> Thus, US spelling has been a work in progress.
>
This discussion reminds me of this quote:

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that 
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; 
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat 
them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary."

:)

g.
-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its 
kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Fri Sep 11 18:07:47 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:07:47 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <002301d0ece6$ad573070$08059150$@net>

> I hope it all works out OK and let us know how it goes!
> 
> Todd

Well a quick update to this story. For a while it did not look like this was
going to happen because the seller just did not want to pack. As a result we
were getting quotes of $700-$800 proportions. The lowest was $595 if the
seller dropped it off at the shipping center (they would pack and deliver)
which the seller did not want to do.

At this point it was going to be extremely cost ineffective and I was ready
to call the whole thing off when the seller came around and decided to pack
the item on a pallet (which he got for free from HD). That brought cost of
pickup and delivery down to $368.

Item is to ship out Monday and here in California by Friday. Will report
back then on the success of the endeavor. Thanks again to everyone for all
the help!

-Ali


From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 11 10:07:45 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:07:45 -0400
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com>
 <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
 <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVHFOQZXHFHBL9cZR0OHg=0UxSx8ruNiLfYG0p4q0N1cQ@mail.gmail.com>

Me too, especially as a working sys admin ... the business model is not
really original ... just the old time "service bureau" or "timesharing
company" but we have to have a hip new marketing catchname for it, LOL...
Well, if I've learned one thing, the computer industry is kind of like the
fashion industry ... cyclical ... one year it will be distributed services;
ten years later it's centralization ... one year "cloud" is the fad ... but
I think in ten years we'll all be moving to pull our services back in
house, LOL.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Ben wrote....
> ----
> What I find more annoying, is this cloud crap.
> ----
> "There is no such thing as 'the cloud', it's just someone else's computer."
>
> Love that quote... so true... and I sell cloud services ;)
>
> J
>
>
>
>

From gerardcjat at free.fr  Fri Sep 11 13:41:25 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:41:25 +0200
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
Message-ID: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>

That triggers again a question I had for a while ...

HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail  ?? 

Who had been through this problem and does it "really" worth to have some blanks
"just in case" ??

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Fri Sep 11 14:59:01 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:59:01 -0700
Subject: bendix GE-15?
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

I think someone on one of the lists was inquring about this. Some items that might be of interest
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-Circuit-Board-Tester-/262042248871?hash=item3d02ef66a7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-DA-1-Interface-Panel-Huge-Connectors-/361384840697?hash=item5424370df9

and a bunch of magazine advertisements

Eugene

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 11 15:32:14 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:32:14 -0400
Subject: bendix GE-15?
In-Reply-To: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
References: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
Message-ID: <FB4F8A32-4036-4443-9596-178A873E7828@comcast.net>


> On Sep 11, 2015, at 3:59 PM, W2HX <w2hx at w2hx.com> wrote:
> 
> I think someone on one of the lists was inquring about this. Some items that might be of interest
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-Circuit-Board-Tester-/262042248871?hash=item3d02ef66a7
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-DA-1-Interface-Panel-Huge-Connectors-/361384840697?hash=item5424370df9

Wow, $575 for two switches, one meter, a few connectors, and some wire?  $125 for 5 connectors and switch?

	paul


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Sep 11 15:35:40 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 15:35:40 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>
Message-ID: <000a01d0ecd1$6d22c6a0$476853e0$@classiccmp.org>


Gerard wrote....
----
HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail  ?? 

Who had been through this problem and does it "really" worth to have some
blanks "just in case" ??
----
1) Once is enough, if it is the only known copy of that particular rom. But
in general they are very reliable. More often than not - when they fail -
something else took them out in the process of it's failure. I have had a
prom failure all by itself though.

2) It's extremely worth it. For one.... many of the machines run by people
on this list immediately become boatanchors if a prom fails, especially if
it's a microcode rom. Second... you're missing the more general case - say I
have a HP21MX that was running 2000/Access and I now want to run RTE-6/VM.
Guess what - I need the microcode roms that are required for RTE-6/VM.
Fortunately, other collectors have taken the time to copy their proms and
upload them online (bitsavers is a great example). So I can download their
rom images and burn a new set for running new software I had not been able
to run before. Another example - say my machine came with only paper tape.
Two years later I happen to acquire a disc drive. Sure would be nice if I
could just download the loader rom image and burn it so that I can boot from
that device. With a burner and blanks, all that is possible.

Best,

J



From wmachacek at q.com  Fri Sep 11 16:01:40 2015
From: wmachacek at q.com (wmachacek)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 15:01:40 -0600
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <011f01d0ecd5$0e5512f0$2aff38d0$@q.com>

I have a CDC "160 Computer Programming Manual" that I obtained many years
ago when I was working with CDC equipment.  This manual caught my eye and I
squirreled it away since we were using the 160-A computers not the 160s.
This manual has a publication number of 023a and a date of 1960.  The
picture shown inside the manual is pretty much like the one described
herein.  It shows the dropped side panels.  The manual shows the Ferranti
paper tape reader and the BRPE paper tape punch as standard equipment.  As
optional equipment it shows Ampex magnetic tape handlers (FR300 or FR400),
an 80 column punched card reader (no maker listed), an 80 column card punch
(no maker listed), a line printer (no maker listed), a Soroban-modified IBM
electric typewriter, and a digital communications line buffer.  This manual
has 45 pages and shows a full view of the computer and a close-up of the
front panel.  I always kept this as a kind of a CDC oddity as I had heard
that the 160s were a proto type and never actually went into production.  At
least that is what I heard back then.  I hope this information kind of helps
to better identify these computers.   Bill

 


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Sep 11 18:17:55 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:17:55 -0700
Subject: Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <55F36123.30000@jwsss.com>



On 9/11/2015 12:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Dave G4UGM
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 12:06 PM
>
>>> From: Liam Proven
>>> Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17
>>>
>>> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs with
>>>> were "COLOUR PENCILS".
>>>>
>>> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper,
>>> old-fashioned-way. ;?)
>>>
>> I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in English.
>>
>> Correct.  "Colour" reflects Norman French, "color" reflects Latin.
>>
>> It was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an
>> attempt to "Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up" English and Webster
>> who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today....
> However, it was far earlier than the Victorians.  Noah Webster (1758-1843)
> only overlaps the Victorian era by 6 years; he was reacting against the
> aristocratic spelling norms of the 17th and 18th centuries, when Latin and
> Greek were held to be more important than English in the learning of the
> latter language.  His spelling book was originally published in 1783.
>
>                                                                  Rich
>
>
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computer Museum
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
>
> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
>
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
>
>
My earliest Webster is an 1820 copy.  The last dictionary I bought was 
the CD version of the OED which was around $1000.  I ended up with a 
copy for around $100.  Now just use the spell check in whatever I'm in 
to keep me somewhat honest, and if I need something and have a browser 
handy, use the Google box on firefox to get me close to the correct 
spelling.

Now choosing my words is different than spelling of course.

Thanks
Jim

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 11 18:34:48 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:34:48 -0400
Subject: bendix GE-15?
In-Reply-To: <FB4F8A32-4036-4443-9596-178A873E7828@comcast.net>
References: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
 <FB4F8A32-4036-4443-9596-178A873E7828@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV=azc-mYJRaMw_dBsD1ySRyv-KLLdXgoQ+QQ-6H2=MxQ@mail.gmail.com>

His prices are pretty off the wall in general but he's got some neat
ephemera if you browse through his other items. Lots of Univac boards,
miscellaneous parts, old documentation, bits and pieces of several old
computer lines...

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 11, 2015, at 3:59 PM, W2HX <w2hx at w2hx.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think someone on one of the lists was inquring about this. Some items
> that might be of interest
> >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-Circuit-Board-Tester-/262042248871?hash=item3d02ef66a7
> >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-DA-1-Interface-Panel-Huge-Connectors-/361384840697?hash=item5424370df9
>
> Wow, $575 for two switches, one meter, a few connectors, and some wire?
> $125 for 5 connectors and switch?
>
>         paul
>
>

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Fri Sep 11 19:08:29 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:08:29 -0500
Subject: FS: three PDP-11 boards
Message-ID: <C554A63D6ACC40F2AF1B992C12982692@CharlesHPLaptop>

I was going through my board collection and found three PDP-11 boards I've 
never used in years and don't see a foreseeable need.
No idea of condition, but they're visually clean and neat, stored in 
antistatic bags.
The serial cards came out of (my) working 11/23+ but I've not tested them 
(since I already have a 16-line card and only 2 terminals).

I have (one each):

M7957    DZV11-M     Quad height 4-line serial card

M8053    DMV11 "Microprogram Control" synchronous controller card
Dilog CQ1610 16-line serial card.

Make any reasonable offers. + shipping from US zip 65775.

thanks
Charles


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 20:07:29 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:07:29 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150912010728.GB20765@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 09:27:47AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> A volunteer at CHM (Paul McJones) is scanning R1 documentation currently.

Yes, I've already been talking to Paul.

mcl

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 20:09:48 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:09:48 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:24:47AM -0700, Randy Dawson wrote:
> There was a 'slice' of the R1 floating about with some friends of mine
> in Houston.

Were they the owners of a small office building off of Post Oak in Houston
in the 1970s-1980s?

That's the only one I know about that survived.

mcl

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 11 21:23:40 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:23:40 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <ED375DC3-2BCD-4535-ADE9-8A9CD30217C5@comcast.net>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <20150911074614.55610046@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <AE4E5109-6ABE-4B30-9E10-CEFB4E51CBA8@comcast.net>
 <ED375DC3-2BCD-4535-ADE9-8A9CD30217C5@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F38CAC.2030000@pico-systems.com>

On 09/11/2015 10:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> FWIW: when I run into a web site issue due to filtering (or suspicion of same), I got to TOR.  Apart from the confidentiality benefits it offers, you also get access from a completely different part of the world.  An unpredictable place, admittedly.
>
>
Just to explain why this is a problem, the various pages of 
the homebuilt CPU web ring all are supposed to link to David 
Brooks' page and a small javascript code that allows viewers 
of the various pages to jump to any of the other pages.  As 
new pages are added to the ring (or dead ones removed) the 
javascript is updated to reflect that.  So, it really is 
important that these pages link to a single copy of the 
javascript that is up to date.

So, it is not a matter of me seeing David Brooks page one 
time, it is a matter of anybody who looks at my page or any 
of the other pages being able to get to all the other pages 
of the ring.

And, with the great help of the classiccmp group, we have 
scoped out that this is actually a pretty large problem, 
about 54% of US and Canadian users cannot get to anything on 
members.iinet.net.au

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 11 21:38:00 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:38:00 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
 <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F39008.5050406@pico-systems.com>

On 09/11/2015 11:31 AM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote:
> Are there any operational G-15's out there? Seems like this would be a good
> model to restore/demonstrate that doesn't come with all the usual baggage
> of a first gen machine (exotic power, A/C requirements, thousands of tubes,
> etc). -C
>
>
Supposedly one in Australia is at least close to operational.

I tried to help get a G-15D running at Washington University 
in about 1972.  it was one of those NASA surplus deals, "you 
pay the shipping and it is yours".  We got the G-15, 
typewriter and typewriter control box and several huge boxes 
of documents and paper tapes.  It wasn't that hard to get 
power run to the machine, we had a lab available that was 
proven to be able to handle the heat load. But, then, it 
didn't seem to work.  I think the relays in the typewriter 
control had dirty contacts, and there were a LOT of relays 
in there!  The thing had 300 tubes of dubious quality.
Finally, I determined that the drum was badly scored, there 
were several tracks that were scored down to the brass.  So, 
obviously, no existing program could be expected to run, 
with several shot drum tracks.

This is one of the major problems with the G-15, there was 
VERY poor protection of the drum from dust.  They had a 
formed aluminum cover, but the cable bundle went through a 
hole with caterpillar grommet around it, so plenty of room 
for dirt to get in.

The diode boards were paper-phenolic, and almost certainly 
would get more brittle as they aged.

But, yes, it was a fairly simple machine, I don't think you 
could strip a tube computer down much further than the G-15 
and still have it do useful work.

Jon

From hollandia at ccountry.net  Fri Sep 11 21:40:37 2015
From: hollandia at ccountry.net (hollandia at ccountry.net)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
Message-ID: <1065.12.73.18.134.1442025637.squirrel@members.ccountry.net>

Per your request, I tried the URL:
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html


I did the search you requested, and tried the following URLs:
    http://members.iinet.com.au/~stepho/mick.htm
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/stories.html
    http://www.iinet.net.au/~rmine/gctrebs.html
    http://www.iinet.net.au/~worcom
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~janwyllie/
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~tom-hunter/
    http://www.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~jacob/worldtp.html

In every case shown above, the result was the same:
    The server at members.iinet.net.au is taking too long to respond.

Only two of the sites I tried gave a different result. They were:
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~glrmc/
    It gave me a blank page.

and

    http://members.iinet.net.au/~margretr/
    It gave the following error message:

"XML Parsing Error: unexpected parser state Location:
jar:file:///C:/Program%20Files/Mozilla%

20Firefox/browser/omni.ja!/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutNetError.xhtml
Line Number 335,

Column 68: <div id="ed_connectionFailure">&connectionFailure.longDesc;</div>"



My particulars are:

7:59 PM 9/10/2015
Gateway computer, connected by modem.
Windows XP Professional v5.1
Firefox 35.0.1
Computer Country (ccountry.net) Medford, Oregon USA
IP address: 12.73.18.147


You're welcome!

Kurt
>
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>
>
> If you want to do some more research, just Google
> members.iinet and you will see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> Thanks for any help or info you can offer!
>
> Jon
>
>
>



From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 22:56:39 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 22:56:39 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <55F39008.5050406@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <55F30103.2020209@bitsavers.org>
 <CAL9NafFPF19Gze_R8VOya8pDcaU9bi=_utq=4wtq10VhxkALkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F39008.5050406@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150912035639.GA32084@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 09:38:00PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
> Supposedly one in Australia is at least close to operational.

The references to it are on one of the members.iinet.net.au sites.
Currently only reachable through the Wayback Machine (see one of
my other posts):

https://web.archive.org/web/20141002192121/http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/index.html

It references the Australian Computer Museum Society ( http://acms.org.au/ )
but that site no longer contains any G-15 information that I can see.

> I think the relays in the typewriter control had dirty contacts

A problem from day one :-)

> This is one of the major problems with the G-15, there was VERY poor
> protection of the drum from dust.

Oh wow.  That's too bad.

mcl

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 12 00:58:38 2015
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 22:58:38 -0700
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>,
 <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>,
 <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>


Yep, that was the place - I can't remember their name, I think they were the Autocad rep, and carried a few complementary lines like plotters.
The R1 was laying down on some stands, like a coffee table, plexi cover so you could set your drinks on it and see all the intricate wiring, tubes and construction.

One of the Texas Microsystems founders (and a Rice alum) got possession, and after a few years gave it back to Rice.

Randy

> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:09:48 -0500
> From: linimon at lonesome.com
> To: rdawson16 at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
> CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:24:47AM -0700, Randy Dawson wrote:
> > There was a 'slice' of the R1 floating about with some friends of mine
> > in Houston.
> 
> Were they the owners of a small office building off of Post Oak in Houston
> in the 1970s-1980s?
> 
> That's the only one I know about that survived.
> 
> mcl
 		 	   		  

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 02:30:36 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 08:30:36 +0100
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkVHFOQZXHFHBL9cZR0OHg=0UxSx8ruNiLfYG0p4q0N1cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150908105309.9F2DF18C0F0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55EF0B23.2080404@pico-systems.com> <55F22F1B.1040706@pico-systems.com>
 <55F2376C.2050301@kaput.homeunix.org> <55F24480.5040603@jwsss.com>
 <55F245B6.1050604@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <003201d0ec87$8d0b6a20$a7223e60$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA43vkVHFOQZXHFHBL9cZR0OHg=0UxSx8ruNiLfYG0p4q0N1cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04fe01d0ed2c$eb3a12e0$c1ae38a0$@gmail.com>

Can I beg to differ, having had a quick play with Azure I quite like "cloud" solutions. 
However they usually don't deliver what managers expect as usually it is only the hardware that?s in the cloud.
You don't get the Systems Admin done for you. You will often have to back it up. Worse still its expensive.
Where I last worked we basically ran "servers as a service" using a VMWare farm. 
We tried to fully cost our servers but the price we came up with was still about 10% of commercial cloud providers.

I use a "hosted" web site for the local Radio Club on a shared server in the cloud. Its about $100 dollars a year.
I honestly can't beat it. We have MySql and run a main web server using "Drupal" for the "Normal" club stuff, plus a second with "Moodle" for the UK Ham Radio exams we run training for.
It also hosts my Vintage computing pages...

I would probably need three boxes at home to do the same thing. Give me a cloud any day....
... which reminds me I havn't backed it up for a while.....

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean
> Caron
> Sent: 11 September 2015 16:08
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
> Subject: Re: internet blocking problem ?
> 
> Me too, especially as a working sys admin ... the business model is not really
> original ... just the old time "service bureau" or "timesharing company" but
> we have to have a hip new marketing catchname for it, LOL...
> Well, if I've learned one thing, the computer industry is kind of like the
> fashion industry ... cyclical ... one year it will be distributed services; ten years
> later it's centralization ... one year "cloud" is the fad ... but I think in ten years
> we'll all be moving to pull our services back in house, LOL.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> > Ben wrote....
> > ----
> > What I find more annoying, is this cloud crap.
> > ----
> > "There is no such thing as 'the cloud', it's just someone else's computer."
> >
> > Love that quote... so true... and I sell cloud services ;)
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> >
> >


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 19:02:10 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 18:02:10 -0600
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:41 PM, GerardCJAT <gerardcjat at free.fr> wrote:
> HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail  ??

Note that some bipolar PROMs suffer from fuse regrowth, where bits
that have been programmed gradually revert to an unprogrammed state.
This was a big problem with NiCr fuses. Later bipolar PROMs used
different fuse materials; TiW was one of the later choices. I don't
know whether TiW or other newer fuses have regrowth issues, but if
they do, it's slower than NiCr.

It is possible to recover the bits from a bipolar PROM with regrowth
by decap and optical inspection, because the regrowth happens in
relatively narrow tendrils which are visibly different than an
unprogrammed fuse.  I've actually seen that done.

There is speculation that it could be done without decap by trying to
blow each unblown fuse and measuring the energy required to blow the
fuse; a regrown one should require less energy. I'm not aware of
anyone actually having done it that way. I wouldn't trust a
one-of-a-kind PROM to that process.

Obviously it's best to dump the PROM contents before regrowth becomes an issue.

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 11 23:11:43 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:11:43 -0500
Subject: bendix GE-15?
In-Reply-To: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
References: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
Message-ID: <20150912041143.GA1910@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:59:01PM -0700, W2HX wrote:
> Some items that might be of interest
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-Circuit-Board-Tester-/262042248871?hash=item3d02ef66a7

Yes, it would be, but not at that price.  Ouch :-)

mcl

From gerardcjat at free.fr  Sat Sep 12 03:36:40 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:36:40 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
Message-ID: <4305F82F2D9443DAA8AEE414C7501439@medion>

Shall I understand that some of you guys, are looking for blank punch/punched cards ??

I have about a hundred ( here in .... France !! )

Let me know if this can help.

These came from ex Soviet Union, and, as far as I can tell, they "fell and taste" like original IBM cards

that was used to "play" with some 40 years ago.


---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From simski at dds.nl  Sat Sep 12 03:46:54 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:46:54 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
In-Reply-To: <4305F82F2D9443DAA8AEE414C7501439@medion>
References: <4305F82F2D9443DAA8AEE414C7501439@medion>
Message-ID: <55F3E67E.5030900@dds.nl>

Hi,

Hmm. russian carsds. sounds interesting. I'm certainly interested in 
their looks. could you post a scan of one of them?

On 12-09-15 10:36, GerardCJAT wrote:
> Shall I understand that some of you guys, are looking for blank punch/punched cards ??
>
> I have about a hundred ( here in .... France !! )
>
> Let me know if this can help.
>
> These came from ex Soviet Union, and, as far as I can tell, they "fell and taste" like original IBM cards
>
> that was used to "play" with some 40 years ago.
>
>
> ---
> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Sep 12 10:15:45 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:15:45 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>
 <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20150912151545.GA5739@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:58:38PM -0700, Randy Dawson wrote:
> One of the Texas Microsystems founders (and a Rice alum) got possession

Both were Rice alums :-)  Working for them on the other side of the
building was my summer job in college.  They were ... characters.

Probably Mike donated it.  At some point I'll think of his last name,
probably right after hitting Send.

mcl

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 12 10:23:49 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:23:49 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)
Message-ID: <554C06C6C8554821BE1A0928168AB437@CharlesHPLaptop>

Since the computer doesn't mind doing boring, repetitive tasks, I set the 
11/23+ to yet again remaking the bootable RL02 pack (3 hrs at 9600 baud 
while I did other things).
Plunked it in (without the programmer's panel connected), hit the boot 
switch on the limited function panel, and it fired right up to the "." 
prompt.
Did a directory of the free space which printed, set the date to 11 Sep 75, 
and had a phone call for a while.
Back to the console, entered R BUILD (just to do the PR, not save it) and 
system halts. Reboot - back to the same crap of fault light flashes on the 
drives, no boot. Sigh.

So I hooked up the programmer's panel, flaky though it may be, (just not 
touching the SR) and discovered that some of the bootstrap routine is being 
corrupted in zero page!
And not the same Bit 4 as before, and not all the time... a 4027 (JMS IO) 
got changed to 4007, the constant of 0377 changed to 0017, the 6601 RL02 
instruction was now a 6401, etc.
Still always middle bits though.

Now, the secondary bootstrap (from the RL pack) does overwrite the zero page 
including the running boot code. (The first read from the pack is 200[octal] 
words, or one page). The boot routine never sets the MA address register so 
it could be overwriting core starting at 0000.

The boot listing comments say execution does not continue in the primary 
boot (at 0001-0035), from the last IO call at the point when the RLCB 
function causes the page of data to be read from the disk into core. But the 
changes I'm seeing aren't right, regardless. The OS/8 boot routine would 
never use a 6401 (an IOT for a secondary console device, in this case my 
Omni-USB)...

Next I pulled the RL8A out of the backplane and tried manually entering and 
single-stepping through the boot code, skipping manually over the RLSD 
instruction in the disk IO subroutine.
That didn't seem to corrupt the code. Hit the Boot key (with the RL8A still 
removed) and those three or four words are wrong again, the same way. Thus 
verifying that the changes are not coming from the secondary boot on the 
disk!

If I remember correctly, the boot ROMs have to load the boot routine into 
core at 0001-0035 (done by hardware on one of the three-board set) and then 
start execution at 0001.
I thought this might be bit-rot in the ROMs, so I tried toggling in the 
bootstrap code to those locations and single-stepping beginning at 0001 
after a few loops through showed the code changed again.
Remember, the RL8A is not present in the bus. So the fault can't be on that 
card!

I'm thinking something else is loading part of the memory data bus when it 
should not be, which is either on the CPU or it's a problem with the 32K 
memory card itself.

Now that I think about it, when I discovered the problem on our clone panel 
a couple of days ago, I also found a couple of core locations that had been 
corrupted in the restrl program, not in page 0 though. Figured that was also 
artifact of the buggy panel, but now it's looking like something else. The 
only things in the backplane now are the 3-board set, the 32k card, and the 
Omni-USB.

Today I have discovered a pattern to the corruption!

Addr    Orig.    Altered
0005    4027    4007
0011    6615    6415
0015    7325    7005
0021    1026    1006
0025    0377    0017
0031    6601    6401

Notice the middle 4 bits are always being set to 0000 which is an 
open-circuit (on the Omnibus a logic-1 is pulled down to 0 volts).
I am not sure of the significance of the repeating address pattern yet.

Not only that, those locations *only* are wrong after the BOOT key (or 
switch) is toggled.
Running from loc. 1 by  (0001, LA, RUN) does NOT corrupt the bootstrap in 
core (with the RL8A still removed, so the DMA facility doesn't factor into 
it).

An even more important finding is that if I manually clear the bootstrap 
code by depositing 0000 in all its locations, when I hit the BOOT key, it 
deposits the "altered" version into core! No wonder the machine won't 
boot... still unsure as to why it did the first time yesterday, though.

So now I need to look at the boot ROM circuitry which is on Option 2 board 
M8317. There are not three ROMs, DEC used some weird packing scheme to fit 
into two 256x4 ROMs. Most likely there is a 4-bit latch or an open-collector 
buffer chip that is flaky.

I'd just yank the board and try booting without it, but the IF and DF 
registers (for memory extension beyond 4K) are also on that card so OS/8 
would crash...

And the best news of all so far:
I keyed in the boot loader by hand, started it manually at 0001... and OS/8 
booted from Drive 0 which confirms that the boot ROM area is the cause!
Now to track it down... I sure hope it's not another solder whisker.

Meanwhile, I used the system for over half an hour, running PFOCAL, 
formatting disk packs in Drive 1, checking the handlers loaded with BUILD. 
All working.

-Charles 


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 12 11:31:31 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:31:31 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
Message-ID: <40E4DC4FF8A04B3DBE26E684D2A68A7F@CharlesHPLaptop>

Update: The first thing I tried was removing and reseating the boot ROMs 
(465A2/469A2), since they did not use good machine-tooled sockets.
Now the boot loader performs normally, no incorrect locations, and OS/8 
boots from Drive 0 whether using the boot key or manual start at 0001. 
Great!

So of course, ANOTHER new problem shows up... OS/8 boots and runs, will run 
PFOCAL, BASIC, give directory listings...
But when I hit a Ctrl-C (for example, during a directory listing), Drive 0 
Ready goes out, the Fault lamp lights and OS/8 halts. The last instruction 
showing on the display is 07605, 6213 (CDF CIF 1).
I can hit the boot key and as soon as the drive becomes ready again, 
presumably relocating track 0, the system boots back to the "." prompt.

The DF/IF logic is on the same Option 2 board with the bootstrap and 
auto-restart circuitry. Maybe there's yet another bad connection I have now 
disturbed...
Time to start running diagnostics again!

I am really feeling like I'm on a snipe hunt here... sigh. This system was 
working for many years up until about 2 years ago, then it all went to pot. 


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep 12 11:48:41 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 18:48:41 +0200
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
In-Reply-To: <554C06C6C8554821BE1A0928168AB437@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <554C06C6C8554821BE1A0928168AB437@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <55F45769.6020507@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-12 17:23, Charles wrote:
> Since the computer doesn't mind doing boring, repetitive tasks, I set
> the 11/23+ to yet again remaking the bootable RL02 pack (3 hrs at 9600
> baud while I did other things).
> Plunked it in (without the programmer's panel connected), hit the boot
> switch on the limited function panel, and it fired right up to the "."
> prompt.
> Did a directory of the free space which printed, set the date to 11 Sep
> 75, and had a phone call for a while.
> Back to the console, entered R BUILD (just to do the PR, not save it)
> and system halts. Reboot - back to the same crap of fault light flashes
> on the drives, no boot. Sigh.

[...]

Well. This is definitely good progress. We can rule out the RL8A, and I 
think it has never been the problem.

So, either something is corrupting the bus, or the memory is bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I got this right, you wrote the boot 
code by hand into memory, single-stepped it, and after a while, you had 
bad contents in memory.

Now, execution here would only be reading from memory, and not writing 
to it. Furthermore, this is MOS, so it does not get rewritten on reads.
That would, to me, suggest that the memory board is the problem.
Do you have any other memory board around?

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 12 12:08:09 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:08:09 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics
Message-ID: <72E38A82CBB2436AA69FCD6CD5C81C2D@CharlesHPLaptop>

>So, either something is corrupting the bus, or the memory is bad.
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I got this right, you wrote the boot
>code by hand into memory, single-stepped it, and after a while, you had
>bad contents in memory.
>
>Now, execution here would only be reading from memory, and not writing
>to it. Furthermore, this is MOS, so it does not get rewritten on reads.
>That would, to me, suggest that the memory board is the problem.
>Do you have any other memory board around?
>
>Johnny

I mistyped while doing many things at once.
(It appears that the memory does NOT change while single stepping through it 
by hand. Fortunately.)
See my update - reseating the ROMs fixed the boot corruption problem.

I am not sure if the 32K SRAM board actually reads and rewrites - it does 
not do so internally, it's just SRAM and a couple of bus buffers.
Whether the 8/A memory cycle does rewrite each time or not, I don't know.

Now I've got yet another RL02 (maybe) problem to chase down...
-Charles


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Sep 12 12:22:50 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:22:50 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>,
 <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>,
 <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55F45F6A.2060908@pico-systems.com>

On 09/12/2015 12:58 AM, Randy Dawson wrote:
> Yep, that was the place - I can't remember their name, I think they were the Autocad rep, and carried a few complementary lines like plotters.
> The R1 was laying down on some stands, like a coffee table, plexi cover so you could set your drinks on it and see all the intricate wiring, tubes and construction.
>
> One of the Texas Microsystems founders (and a Rice alum) got possession, and after a few years gave it back to Rice.
>
>
Any pictures of this?

Jon

From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Sep 12 12:27:30 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:27:30 -0700
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics
In-Reply-To: <72E38A82CBB2436AA69FCD6CD5C81C2D@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <72E38A82CBB2436AA69FCD6CD5C81C2D@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <55F46082.9040608@jwsss.com>



On 9/12/2015 10:08 AM, Charles wrote:
>> So, either something is corrupting the bus, or the memory is bad.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I got this right, you wrote the boot
>> code by hand into memory, single-stepped it, and after a while, you had
>> bad contents in memory.
>>
>> Now, execution here would only be reading from memory, and not writing
>> to it. Furthermore, this is MOS, so it does not get rewritten on reads.
>> That would, to me, suggest that the memory board is the problem.
>> Do you have any other memory board around?
>>
>> Johnny
>
> I mistyped while doing many things at once.
> (It appears that the memory does NOT change while single stepping 
> through it by hand. Fortunately.)
> See my update - reseating the ROMs fixed the boot corruption problem.
>
> I am not sure if the 32K SRAM board actually reads and rewrites - it 
> does not do so internally, it's just SRAM and a couple of bus buffers.
> Whether the 8/A memory cycle does rewrite each time or not, I don't know.
>
> Now I've got yet another RL02 (maybe) problem to chase down...
> -Charles
>
>
When Mos memory was added to the Microdata 1600, the read / write was 
not modified, and provision had to be made for sequences in microcode 
which expected a n 0xFF pattern in the memory during half cycle writes.  
Not sure if that is relevant to the PDP8, but it was a problem with 
introducing memories that didn't need rewrites, that all such had to be 
tracked down and recoded.

Such residual logic to do writes or drive the bus during read operations 
could mess up  memory contents till CPU's were redesigned to use MOS 
exclusively.

Since the problem sounds to be happening on boot, is is possible to halt 
the processor at the end of the boot an read code and see if the 
contents are corrupted then, and also at the end of the boot before 
proceeding past the boostrap code in memory?

Hand modification of the disk contents to a halt at the first 
instruction, then hand modify the end of the disk boot sector contents 
to halt before jumping out of the boot code to continue on to the OS?

thanks
Jim


From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Sep 12 15:51:50 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:51:50 -0500
Subject: information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?
In-Reply-To: <55F45F6A.2060908@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150911152804.GB12383@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W9B1D3ECC92C13FAFCAFB5BA500@phx.gbl>
 <20150912010948.GC20765@lonesome.com>
 <BLU172-W25619614DACEDE8ED7C093BA5F0@phx.gbl>
 <55F45F6A.2060908@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20150912205150.GA24278@lonesome.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 12:22:50PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
> Any pictures of this?

I'll forward this email to my contact at Rice.

mcl

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 12 17:36:08 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 17:36:08 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
Message-ID: <93997EE5ACB8422790156F75B7784FD6@CharlesHPLaptop>

As previously posted, reseating the boot ROMs in their sockets cured the 
corrupted boot loader issue. Got lucky there :)

In my system there are two RL02 drives. I will call them "Top" and "Bottom" 
here, after their physical locations.
I put the OS/8 pack that had been acting strangely in the bottom drive 
(faulting the disk and halting the 8/A when OS/8 was interrupted with 
Ctrl-C) in the top drive, and switched unit plugs.
It works perfectly there! Ctrl-C returns to the "." prompt as expected.

The pack I formatted also still reads four 4000+ blocks partitions when 
switched to the bottom drive.

As before, the AJRLHA diagnostic (Seek/Fctn) still faults and prints errors, 
but only at the start of testing the drive. Thereafter that drive shows no 
errors. Then the program will switch to the other drive and the same problem 
occurs. Specifically (edited and reformatted for clarity, with results 
interpreted from the RL02 user manual):

(Ready light goes out, Fault light on)

STATE NOT 5 AFTER SEEK WITH 0 DIFFERENCE (this error and register dump 
prints twice in succession. State 5 = Lock-on, keeping on track).
WD1 0317 (lower head, heads not out, spin-down)
WD2 0204 (write data error, write gate error). This one worries me. WDE is 
"write gate on but no transitions on write data line". The drive should 
never be trying to write when there is no data being sent, and this 
diagnostic program does not do any writes to disk! So a fault, head 
retraction and shutdown is the proper response to this fatal error. I'll 
have to put a logic analyzer on the appropriate bits and see why it thinks 
it's supposed to be writing... or where the command came from.

ERROR FLAG SET
ER 2000 (Operation incomplete within 200 ms). Probably because the drive 
shut down when the WDE error occurred.
CB 0003 (Seek)

(Fault light goes out)

ER NOT AS EXPECTED BUT ERROR FLAG NOT SET (prints this block twice)
WD1 0235 (heads out, lock-on, keeping on track)
WD2 0002 (Volume check bit, no errors)
ER 0003 (Drive Error and Drive Ready)
CB 1004 (8-bit mode, Read Header)

BAD STATUS RECEIVED FROM DRIVE (also prints this block twice)
WD1 ACTUAL 0235 (heads out, lock-on, keeping on track)
WD2 ACTUAL 0002 (volume check bit)
WD1 EXPECTED 0234 (heads out, seek - track counting)
WD2 EXPECTED 0000 (no errors)

Some of these errors look like a "cascade"... because the first false-write 
error occurred, the others are flagged before the drive can become ready 
again.
Then it goes on to run for about 10 mins, flickering the Ready light 
constantly so it's very dim, obviously accessing as fast as it can.
No further errors.

Next the program switches to drive 1 and the results are identical, except 
the "STATE NOT 5" message has WD1 0217 (upper head, heads not out, 
spin-down).

So only the Seek diagnostic is giving errors... the AJRLIA diagnostic 
(Read/Write) and 'KA (Performance Exerciser) do not show errors. Writes the 
entire pack and reads it with no errors. I suspect it has automatic error 
retry but without the source code, that is speculation.

Anyhow it may be time to break out the scope and RL02 service manual and 
check some settings and waveforms...
But I still think this is actually a problem with the RL8A controller and 
not *both* RL02's, since both drives return the same errors, and never had 
problems like this before...

Any help making sense of this mishmash of errors would be greatly 
appreciated :)
-Charles




From rick at rickmurphy.net  Sat Sep 12 18:27:56 2015
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:27:56 -0400
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
In-Reply-To: <40E4DC4FF8A04B3DBE26E684D2A68A7F@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <40E4DC4FF8A04B3DBE26E684D2A68A7F@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <201509122327.t8CNRwRp031445@rickmurphy.net>

At 12:31 PM 9/12/2015, Charles wrote:
>Update: The first thing I tried was removing and reseating the boot 
>ROMs (465A2/469A2), since they did not use good machine-tooled sockets.
>Now the boot loader performs normally, no incorrect locations, and 
>OS/8 boots from Drive 0 whether using the boot key or manual start at 
>0001. Great!
>
>So of course, ANOTHER new problem shows up... OS/8 boots and runs, 
>will run PFOCAL, BASIC, give directory listings...
>But when I hit a Ctrl-C (for example, during a directory listing), 
>Drive 0 Ready goes out, the Fault lamp lights and OS/8 halts. The last 
>instruction showing on the display is 07605, 6213 (CDF CIF 1).
>I can hit the boot key and as soon as the drive becomes ready again, 
>presumably relocating track 0, the system boots back to the "." prompt.

A halt at 7605 means that OS/8 was unable to write the keyboard monitor 
onto the system device scratch blocks.

The fact that the drive is dropping "Ready" seems to be what's causing 
the halt.
     -Rick



From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 22:23:09 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 22:23:09 -0500
Subject: WTB: Teletype parts
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4DCXyG7QxtPNdGFRL9fKJo5xi1tbbfHFvmQEzpSS0m7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Need the following items for an ex-Bell System Model 15 TTY:

 Keycaps - F K L C V B N with punctuation symbols, rather than fractions. I
have a set with fractions to sell or swap.

 Keycaps - CARR RET and NULL (blank). These are missing.

 Platen crank - This is missing.

Think that's all for now. I put out a word on Greenkeys but haven't had any
luck, though I'd try the ever-helpful classicmp list!

Please contact off-list where appropriate. Thank you!

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Sat Sep 12 22:28:13 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 20:28:13 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <25A062BDA30348CB8036D3D00EF76369@RosemarysPC>


 "wmachacek" <wmachacek at q.com>wrote:
Subject: Control Data 160

I have a CDC "160 Computer Programming Manual" that I obtained many years
ago when I was working with CDC equipment.  This manual caught my eye and I
squirreled it away since we were using the 160-A computers not the 160s.
This manual has a publication number of 023a and a date of 1960.  The
picture shown inside the manual is pretty much like the one described
herein.  It shows the dropped side panels.  The manual shows the Ferranti
paper tape reader and the BRPE paper tape punch as standard equipment.  As
optional equipment it shows Ampex magnetic tape handlers (FR300 or FR400),
an 80 column punched card reader (no maker listed), an 80 column card punch
(no maker listed), a line printer (no maker listed), a Soroban-modified IBM
electric typewriter, and a digital communications line buffer.  This manual
has 45 pages and shows a full view of the computer and a close-up of the
front panel.  I always kept this as a kind of a CDC oddity as I had heard
that the 160s were a proto type and never actually went into production.  At
least that is what I heard back then.  I hope this information kind of helps
to better identify these computers.   Bill

...............................................

Bill,

I have a copy of that manual here and was just looking at it.  I believe I have all of the 160 and 160-A documentation and software.  I have been giving it all to Al Kossaw to add to bitsavers.  He is overloaded with so much that needs scanning, that it may be a while before getting posted.

The early 160's used IBM punched card equipment.  The 088 was the usual card reader of choice.  Punching was via an IBM 523 or 521..  Printing was on a 1402 or 407.  All these devices used an adaptor called the 1610.

Later, printing shifted to the Analex 1000 lpn drum printer.  Horrible machine to work on.  A cheaper printer also became available: the 501 drum printer.  It was made by Holley Carburator!  I think it was their only venture into computerdom.  Very unreliable machine, used Teflon hammer assemblies.  I never saw a straight line of printing on any of those machines.

Much of my early career at CDC was swapping out the foreign peripherals and replacing them with CDC ones.  Including the Ferranti Paper Tape Reader.

I'm a little hurt that the 160 is thought to never have gone into production.  I was a customer engineer in the Twin Cities area and worked on lots of them, including some that went to NCR.  Even Honeywell used them to test production .transducers.  This was the first 12 bit machine, and went into production in 1958.  It was extremely reliable.  Other than paper tape gear and typewriter repairs, the only failures I can remember are burned out light bulbs and push button switches.

Its main signifigance was the development of processing the peripheral operations so the large mainframes were freed up for the big jobs. That lead to the 6600, 7600 and the Cyber Series of computers.  Even today, I/O is staged so the big processors are freed up.

The 160 was a Seymor Cray design.  The 160-A was designed by James Pederson in the early 1960's.  It was at the request of several customers who needed more peripheral processing power in the fledling space industry.  Most of the early 160-A sales were to the aerospace industry.  I first worked on them while in the Army.  They were used on missile engine test fixtures in Humtsville, Alabama.

Incredibly reliable machines.  My personal machine (s/n 190) is still working, complete with all origianl parts.  Made in 1963. 52 yers old and still chugging along.  Sadly, I had to give it up for health reasons.  It's now on its way to a Museum.

Billy Pettit





From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 22:30:48 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 22:30:48 -0500
Subject: C-64 / Epyx FastLoad bug(s)? Workaround?
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd5eCXe7JB+Xzfrbp8-BSnyS=cRXRij-4Dn_uJ-23KJrcA@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone here using (or have used) a C-64 with the venerable Epyx FastLoad
cartridge? I'm running into a VERY annoying bug, and would like to know
what if anything is known about it.

Bug works like this..

Use the FL "$" command to display the disk directory. Immediately after,
try to save a program to disk that has a certain number of chars in the
filename in common with another filename on the disk. For instance [SAVE
"PROGRAM03",8] when a file (or files) named "PROGRAM01", 'PROGRAM02", etc.
already exist.

The bug results in a 74 "drive not ready" error, and the save fails.
Sometimes picking a more unique filename will allow a save. Other times, it
seems no filename will allow a save.

Only way I've found to get around the error is to load a different file..
which is no good, as it will overwrite the one in memory. So far, I've only
noted the bug when working with BASIC files.

What's up with this? Is there a workaround?

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Sep 13 00:25:31 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 00:25:31 -0500
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <25A062BDA30348CB8036D3D00EF76369@RosemarysPC>
References: <25A062BDA30348CB8036D3D00EF76369@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <20150913052531.GA14829@lonesome.com>

excellent post.

mcl

From dave at 661.org  Sun Sep 13 02:33:24 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 07:33:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: piggybacked TSOP memory chips
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509130731290.21234@nyx.feedle.net>


Someone on #classiccmp showed pictures of a DDR SDRAM module with 
piggybacked TSOP memory chips.  I've never heard of doing this with 
surface-mounted devices.

http://imgur.com/a/CGk8h

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 13 02:52:37 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:52:37 +0200
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
In-Reply-To: <93997EE5ACB8422790156F75B7784FD6@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <93997EE5ACB8422790156F75B7784FD6@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS1722601936B9989E1E76AB865E0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Charles
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 12:36 AM
To: cctalk digest
Subject: Re: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR 
settings?)

As previously posted, reseating the boot ROMs in their sockets cured the
corrupted boot loader issue. Got lucky there :)

As before, the AJRLHA diagnostic (Seek/Fctn) still faults and prints errors,
but only at the start of testing the drive. Thereafter that drive shows no
errors. Then the program will switch to the other drive and the same problem
occurs. Specifically (edited and reformatted for clarity, with results
interpreted from the RL02 user manual):
[... snip ...]
Any help making sense of this mishmash of errors would be greatly
appreciated :)
-Charles

======
Charles,

I applaude for your tenacity to fix this problem.
I wonder, although unlikely, could there be an error in the AJRLHA 
diagnostic?
At the moment I am not (yet) ready to run that diagnostic on PDP-11, but it 
would
be interesting to hear from other chaps what the the diagnostic would 
produce
on their PDP8 system.
An other temporary available interface would narrow down the possibilities.
I don't have any PDP8 stuff, so not much help from here :-(  But Keep 
posting
findings and progress. Very "on topic" and very interesting read!

gd lck hunting,
- Henk


From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Sep 13 03:24:47 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:24:47 -0700
Subject: Control Data 160
In-Reply-To: <25A062BDA30348CB8036D3D00EF76369@RosemarysPC>
References: <25A062BDA30348CB8036D3D00EF76369@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <55F532CF.8000200@jwsss.com>



On 9/12/2015 8:28 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
> A cheaper printer also became available: the 501 drum printer.  It was made by Holley Carburator!  I think it was their only venture into computerdom.
At the University of Missouri, Rolla, I had an orphaned CDC badged 
printer.  Inside nestled among the electronics was a very solid and 
beautifully cast and chromed Holley Carburetor print mechanism.  No idea 
where it came from it was "abandoned" and I adopted a lot of stuff along 
the way.  Never saw it running or had any print samples with it to judge.
> <snip>
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 12 18:03:54 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 16:03:54 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>,
 <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>

If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot
ROMs. They are only a few instructions long.
Making a listing for the 21MX makes it easy to check them from the front
panel.
As I recall, in the boot sequence, it transfers the ROMs to ram and then
executes it.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 12 18:05:42 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 16:05:42 -0700
Subject: bendix GE-15?
In-Reply-To: <FB4F8A32-4036-4443-9596-178A873E7828@comcast.net>
References: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E4F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>,
 <FB4F8A32-4036-4443-9596-178A873E7828@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1644574050197BF23EFF5CA35F0@phx.gbl>

It looks like it is to check diode boards.
Dwight

 
 		 	   		  

From iridius at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 13 01:21:24 2015
From: iridius at yahoo.com (Dale)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 23:21:24 -0700
Subject: Tandy CoCo Joystick Adapter
Message-ID: <1442125284.32683.YahooMailBasic@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Greetings cctalk list ..

I'm about to do a one time run of some CoCo 3 Joystick adapter PCB's.  Using this simple PCB, along with one IC, 8 resistors, some wire and the two connectors, an adapter can be built to adapt an Atari style 9 pin Joystick to a CoCo 6 pin DIN, allowing one to use a digital joystick with their Tandy Color Computer.  More info at ..

http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57859

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Sep 13 11:02:48 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:02:48 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness
In-Reply-To: <DUB112-DS1722601936B9989E1E76AB865E0@phx.gbl>
References: <93997EE5ACB8422790156F75B7784FD6@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <DUB112-DS1722601936B9989E1E76AB865E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55F59E28.1060607@pico-systems.com>

On 09/13/2015 02:52 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Charles
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 12:36 AM
> To: cctalk digest
> Subject: Re: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 
> diagnostics SR settings?)
>
> As previously posted, reseating the boot ROMs in their 
> sockets cured the
> corrupted boot loader issue. Got lucky there :)
>
> As before, the AJRLHA diagnostic (Seek/Fctn) still faults 
> and prints errors,
> but only at the start of testing the drive. Thereafter 
> that drive shows no
> errors. Then the program will switch to the other drive 
> and the same problem
> occurs. Specifically (edited and reformatted for clarity, 
> with results
> interpreted from the RL02 user manual):
> [... snip ...]
> Any help making sense of this mishmash of errors would be 
> greatly
> appreciated :)
I'm pretty far away from competence on PDP-8s anymore, but 
the symptoms sound like maybe the drive faults on LONG 
seeks, but as long as the seeks are short, it works OK.  
There might be a one-shot in the controller that allows so 
many ms for a seek to complete, and due to aging capacitors, 
the delay is now too short.  But, that's a totally wild 
guess, there could be troubles in the drive seek electronics 
that only occur on longer seeks.

Jon

From gerardcjat at free.fr  Sun Sep 13 03:37:53 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 10:37:53 +0200
Subject: punchcard svg file available
Message-ID: <237756A6C42D47F493BA6FB00B40E362@medion>

@ simski, who wrote :

>Hi,

> Hmm. russian carsds. sounds interesting. I'm certainly interested in 
> their looks. could you post a scan of one of them?

 Well, they very much look ( and feel ) like original IBM ones, with :

- Right angles : NO rounded corners

- Characters printed : standard  0 to 9 row numbers  with 1 to 80 column numbers over "0" ligne and "9" ligne

- only two cyrilic "labels" (??) printed sideway at the leading and trailing edge of the card.

Color is what ** I ** call light brown, but there is certainly a more accurate word for it, something like "bistre" ??

All the prints are printed quite "light"  and I am not sure it will go through scan correctly (!!) .

I will try next week  ( scanner un-connected right now ;-)  )

If interested ( as collector's item  ?? ) , I may send a couple. PM me.

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep 13 08:42:11 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:42:11 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>,
 <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>

Dwight wrote...
> If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot ROMs.
They are only a few instructions long.
Not necessary, as the source and binary for all the loader roms is in the
aforementioned manual. None of them are "only a few instructions long". Most
of them are a couple pages of assembler code.

> As I recall, in the boot sequence, it transfers the ROMs to ram and then
executes it.
Pressing the IPL/TEST button does the following:
1) It executes cpu diagnostic 1 (registers and a few functions) and 2 (quick
memory test, up to 32kw) that are stored in microcode. 
2) It transfers any one of the four installed loader roms (as designated by
switch register bits 15 & 14) to the last (up to 32kw) 64 words of memory.
3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during the
transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the correct
I/O address (device) is referenced.
4) The program counter is set to the first word of the last (up to 32kw) 64
words.
Then you can hit the run switch to execute the (patched) loader.

Interesting to me... on the 2100A/S, the last 64 words of memory can be
protected. They cannot be accessed unless the "loader enable" button/light
has been pressed. This makes it less likely that your loader (which had to
be hand entered on that model as it didn't support "loader roms") would
accidentally be clobbered by other code. The loader enable button stays on
until the computer reaches a halt instruction or the halt button is pressed.
So the typical process was to set the program counter to the first word of
the last 64 words (up to 32kw) of memory, press loader enable, then run.
Once the loader finished loading whatever it's target was, it would halt
(thus re-protecting the loader). Then the user could press run to execute
the target code and not worry about the loader getting toasted.

Best,

J




From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 13 10:10:50 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:10:50 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>, ,
 <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>,
 <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W88890975C259AB6C5E4337A35E0@phx.gbl>


 
> From: jwest at classiccmp.org
> 
> Dwight wrote...
> > If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot ROMs.
> They are only a few instructions long.
> Not necessary, as the source and binary for all the loader roms is in the
> aforementioned manual. None of them are "only a few instructions long". Most
> of them are a couple pages of assembler code.
> 
> > As I recall, in the boot sequence, it transfers the ROMs to ram and then
> executes it.
> Pressing the IPL/TEST button does the following:
> 1) It executes cpu diagnostic 1 (registers and a few functions) and 2 (quick
> memory test, up to 32kw) that are stored in microcode. 
> 2) It transfers any one of the four installed loader roms (as designated by
> switch register bits 15 & 14) to the last (up to 32kw) 64 words of memory.
> 3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during the
> transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the correct
> I/O address (device) is referenced.
> 4) The program counter is set to the first word of the last (up to 32kw) 64
> words.
> Then you can hit the run switch to execute the (patched) loader.
> 
> Interesting to me... on the 2100A/S, the last 64 words of memory can be
> protected. They cannot be accessed unless the "loader enable" button/light
> has been pressed. This makes it less likely that your loader (which had to
> be hand entered on that model as it didn't support "loader roms") would
> accidentally be clobbered by other code. The loader enable button stays on
> until the computer reaches a halt instruction or the halt button is pressed.
> So the typical process was to set the program counter to the first word of
> the last 64 words (up to 32kw) of memory, press loader enable, then run.
> Once the loader finished loading whatever it's target was, it would halt
> (thus re-protecting the loader). Then the user could press run to execute
> the target code and not worry about the loader getting toasted.
> 
> Best,
> 
> J
 My main thinking was the best place to save a boot is to save it on paper.I recall looking at mine to see how the flag worked.( not mass storage yet so needed a serial loader ).Dwight  		 	   		  

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun Sep 13 11:59:31 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:59:31 -0700
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
Message-ID: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>

I do a regular contest on RetroBattlestations called BASIC Week which is a sort of tribute to the days when it was common for programs to be published in books and magazines and people would type them into their computers. One of the neat things about distributing software through type-in listings is that there?s no need for working disk drives or tape drives, or to do complicated things like get a serial connection working and find a way to transfer files. If a computer has built-in BASIC just turn it on and start typing!

Past programs have displayed vector graphics, silly text screen animations, and a couple of games. This time around the program is called Winchester Drive and the concept is to explore a mansion to see what you can find. I decided this time around to try out true sprites and made a version for both the Apple II and Commodore 128. 

I wanted to do a Commodore 64 version but couldn't find any line drawing routines written in assembly anywhere! I thought for sure in the last 33 years some book or magazine somewhere would have written a couple of simple routines to clear the graphics screen and draw some lines that you could POKE in and then call with SYS. Oh well, I will leave the C64 version to someone else. :-)

The challenge is more about honor and glory and getting an excuse to show off old computers and/or skills with porting, but I do give out vinyl decals & stickers for prizes (http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T).

I know that the TI-99/4A, Atari 400/800, Coleco Adam, MSX, and maybe some others also had sprites. Sprites aren?t really needed for porting to other systems, they?re just an easy way to move the player around the screen. The program could definitely be ported to systems that use simple character graphics or even plain text screens.

The complete source code has been posted to github, and you can see the full rules and check out other submissions here:

  https://redd.it/3ko0nd

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 13:39:09 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 12:39:09 -0600
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> and you can see the full rules and check out other submissions here:
>   https://redd.it/3ko0nd

"At the end of the week I'll randomly choose two redditors from the
entire week's submissions that will win 3 months of gold, and 5
runner-ups that will win their choice of 2 retro stickers."

I know that this is for fun, and I don't need either reddit gold nor
stickers, but the winners being chosen randomly seriously dampens my
enthusiasm for participating.

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 13 13:51:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:51:15 -0700
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com>

On 09/13/2015 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> I know that this is for fun, and I don't need either reddit gold nor
> stickers, but the winners being chosen randomly seriously dampens my
> enthusiasm for participating.

Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be 
interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls 
"BASIC" anymore.

Can you run "Visual BASIC" on, say, a PDP-8?

--Chuck

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 14:14:07 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 20:14:07 +0100
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 13 September 2015 19:51
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: It's BASIC Week again!
> 
> On 09/13/2015 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> > I know that this is for fun, and I don't need either reddit gold nor
> > stickers, but the winners being chosen randomly seriously dampens my
> > enthusiasm for participating.
> 
> Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be interesting, but
> to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls "BASIC" anymore.
> 

Isn't that a Retro Question ? I seem to remember it being asked about GFA basic ..


> Can you run "Visual BASIC" on, say, a PDP-8?
> 

I doubt it, but  Visual Basic covers a multitude of sins. There was a VB for DOS .... and 6 versions for Windows before we switched to VB.NET
.. but the competition requires sprites so you would need something special... and I think its DOS based on a PC ...

> --Chuck

Dave


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 15:07:18 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:07:18 -0500
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com>
 <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> > Guzis
> > Sent: 13 September 2015 19:51
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: It's BASIC Week again!
> > 
> > On 09/13/2015 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> > 
> > > I know that this is for fun, and I don't need either reddit gold nor
> > > stickers, but the winners being chosen randomly seriously dampens my
> > > enthusiasm for participating.
> > 
> > Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be interesting, but
> > to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls "BASIC" anymore.
> > 
> 
> Isn't that a Retro Question ? I seem to remember it being asked about GFA basic ..
> 
> 
> > Can you run "Visual BASIC" on, say, a PDP-8?
> > 
> 
> I doubt it, but  Visual Basic covers a multitude of sins. There was a VB for DOS .... and 6 versions for Windows before we switched to VB.NET
> .. but the competition requires sprites so you would need something special... and I think its DOS based on a PC ...

It doesn't require sprites. It specifies that even character graphics
would work.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 15:11:48 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:11:48 +0100
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <046d01d0ee60$6c789fa0$4569dee0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric
> Christopherson
> Sent: 13 September 2015 21:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: It's BASIC Week again!
> 
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Chuck Guzis
> > > Sent: 13 September 2015 19:51
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It's BASIC Week again!
> > >
> > > On 09/13/2015 11:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > > I know that this is for fun, and I don't need either reddit gold
> > > > nor stickers, but the winners being chosen randomly seriously
> > > > dampens my enthusiasm for participating.
> > >
> > > Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be
> > > interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls "BASIC"
> anymore.
> > >
> >
> > Isn't that a Retro Question ? I seem to remember it being asked about GFA
> basic ..
> >
> >
> > > Can you run "Visual BASIC" on, say, a PDP-8?
> > >
> >
> > I doubt it, but  Visual Basic covers a multitude of sins. There was a
> > VB for DOS .... and 6 versions for Windows before we switched to VB.NET ..
> but the competition requires sprites so you would need something special...
> and I think its DOS based on a PC ...
> 
> It doesn't require sprites. It specifies that even character graphics would
> work.

So it is possible it might work on a PDP-8. Might try it on my SBC6120. Not sure if that?s true vintage...

> 
> --
>         Eric Christopherson


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 13 15:18:29 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net>

>>> Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be 
>>> interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls 
>>> "BASIC" anymore.

Does it have to be TRUE BASIC, or are street BASICs accepted?





From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Sep 13 15:26:53 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:26:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509131326080.23594@deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:

>> Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be interesting, but
>> to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one calls "BASIC" anymore.
>>
>
> Isn't that a Retro Question ? I seem to remember it being asked about 
> GFA basic ..

If the disks are still good, I've actually got a copy of GFA Basic for 
DOS. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 13 16:28:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:28:46 -0700
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>

On 09/13/2015 01:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be
>>>>  interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one
>>>> calls "BASIC" anymore.
>
> Does it have to be TRUE BASIC, or are street BASICs accepted?

I didn't want to bring up TRUE BASIC, as I suspect not a lot of "other" 
BASICs would understand it.

How about BASIC-E or CBASIC?  And what's this DOS stuff?  Was there an 
official IBM BASIC for DOS/360?  How about my own creation, STAR BASIC? 
  I've still got a T-shirt and manual for it (and some source code 
somewhere)...

--Chuck


From spc at conman.org  Sun Sep 13 17:03:24 2015
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 18:03:24 -0400
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150913220324.GD9590@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
> On 09/13/2015 01:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> >>>>Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be
> >>>> interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one
> >>>>calls "BASIC" anymore.
> >
> >Does it have to be TRUE BASIC, or are street BASICs accepted?
> 
> I didn't want to bring up TRUE BASIC, as I suspect not a lot of "other" 
> BASICs would understand it.
> 
> How about BASIC-E or CBASIC?  And what's this DOS stuff?  Was there an 
> official IBM BASIC for DOS/360?  How about my own creation, STAR BASIC? 
>  I've still got a T-shirt and manual for it (and some source code 
> somewhere)...

  Per the rules (linked to in a previous message), as long as you get a
picture of it running on the machine itself (no emulators), then it should
be fine.

  -spc (As far as I understand the rules ... )


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Sep 13 17:24:41 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:24:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net> <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509131523370.24818@deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/13/2015 01:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>>> Well, participating in such an event for the fun of it might be
>>>>>  interesting, but to be perfectly frank, I don't know what one
>>>>> calls "BASIC" anymore.
>> 
>> Does it have to be TRUE BASIC, or are street BASICs accepted?
>
> I didn't want to bring up TRUE BASIC, as I suspect not a lot of "other" 
> BASICs would understand it.
>
> How about BASIC-E or CBASIC?  And what's this DOS stuff?  Was there an 
> official IBM BASIC for DOS/360?  How about my own creation, STAR BASIC?  I've 
> still got a T-shirt and manual for it (and some source code somewhere)...

If your BASIC of choice can produce a program for the contest, who the 
hell cares what dialect or platform it's for?  As long as it's "vintage", 
run with it.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 19:24:08 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 19:24:08 -0500
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <20150914002408.GK3303@gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:
> The complete source code has been posted to github, and you can see the full rules and check out other submissions here:
> 
>   https://redd.it/3ko0nd

What format is the Commodore-sprites.spd file in?

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep 13 19:47:21 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 20:47:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Control Data 160
Message-ID: <20150914004721.5617F18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mark Linimon

    > excellent post.

Ditto. Thanks for sharing those memories, and history, with us, Mr. Pettit!

	Noel

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun Sep 13 20:01:45 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 18:01:45 -0700
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <20150914002408.GK3303@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <20150914002408.GK3303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBC47819-D8E1-4CC3-964D-CCF77F196F1E@fozztexx.com>


On Sep 13, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Eric Christopherson <echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:

> What format is the Commodore-sprites.spd file in?

SpritePad

http://www.subchristsoftware.com/spritepad.htm

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 13 21:12:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 19:12:32 -0700
Subject: It's BASIC Week again!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509131523370.24818@deltasoft.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509131317190.18704@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F5EA8E.1040200@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509131523370.24818@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <55F62D10.3040805@sydex.com>

On 09/13/2015 03:24 PM, geneb wrote:

> If your BASIC of choice can produce a program for the contest, who
> the hell cares what dialect or platform it's for?  As long as it's
> "vintage", run with it.

I suppose that's why the winner will be chosen by random drawing.  The 
winner could well be a Cambridge Z88 with its little LCD screen, right?

--Chuck


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep 13 12:23:50 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 12:23:50 -0500
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W88890975C259AB6C5E4337A35E0@phx.gbl>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>, ,
 <CAFrGgTQZj8xAxxh4ZwaPtPK1fhmuDLqP7j8X4mkvFeovzNds8w@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>,
 <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
 <BLU168-W88890975C259AB6C5E4337A35E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000001d0ee48$f581b9c0$e0852d40$@classiccmp.org>


Dwight wrote...
----
 My main thinking was the best place to save a boot is to save it on paper.I
recall looking at mine to see how the flag worked.( not mass storage yet so
needed a serial loader ).
-----
Ah, gotcha. Yep, you're right!

On a few loaders where the part #'s were obscured, I had to do exactly that
(disassemble first handful of instructions to see which one it was).

Best,

J



From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun Sep 13 21:44:18 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 22:44:18 -0400
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>,
 <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>,
 <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E1ZbJkq-0005li-M8@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 8:42, Jay West wrote:

> 3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during
> the transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the
> correct I/O address (device) is referenced.

It's actually a bit more nuanced than this.  What occurs is:

 3a) Except for halt instructions, any I/O instruction referencing select
     code 10 (octal) or greater is patched by adding the select code
     value in the switch register minus 10. 

This means that (a) halt instructions, which are in the I/O group, are not 
altered, (b) DCPC I/O instructions, which reference select codes 2, 3, 6, 
or 7 are not altered, and (c) interfaces that use two select codes, e.g., 
the 7900 disc interface, get both select codes updated properly.  It also 
implies that all loaders are written to reference select code 10 (or 10 and 
11, etc.).

 3b) The two's-complement of the memory address of the first word of the
     loader is stored in the last word in memory.

This is so that loaders can check that what they are loading does not 
overwrite the loader itself.  For example, the paper tape loader does a HLT 
55 if the absolute binary tape contains a record that would overlay the 
loader executable code.

 3c) The contents of the penultimate memory location is patched by adding
     the select code value in the switch register minus 10.

This is used to patch the select code into an optional DCPC control word, 
which is a constant and not an I/O instruction and so wouldn't be patched 
by (3a).  Loaders that use DCPC, e.g., the disc loaders, place their DCPC 
control word at this location.

There's actually quite a lot going on under the hood for that IBL button 
press.

                                      -- Dave


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 22:26:59 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 20:26:59 -0700
Subject: 21MX proms (per request
In-Reply-To: <E1ZbJkq-0005li-M8@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <610A469E58E54CFCAB5EE1FF22228570@medion>
 <BLU168-W59B4957CF4A4DA57C59799A35F0@phx.gbl>
 <004101d0ee29$fe437d10$faca7730$@classiccmp.org>
 <E1ZbJkq-0005li-M8@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLJQ5sAVOx2NFgTMTARTdUiSG7YuYN-kq2pA+2DXPCV+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 7:44 PM, J. David Bryan <jdbryan at acm.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 8:42, Jay West wrote:
>
>> 3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during
>> the transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the
>> correct I/O address (device) is referenced.
>
> It's actually a bit more nuanced than this.  What occurs is:
>
>  3a) Except for halt instructions, any I/O instruction referencing select
>      code 10 (octal) or greater is patched by adding the select code
>      value in the switch register minus 10.
>
> This means that (a) halt instructions, which are in the I/O group, are not
> altered, (b) DCPC I/O instructions, which reference select codes 2, 3, 6,
> or 7 are not altered, and (c) interfaces that use two select codes, e.g.,
> the 7900 disc interface, get both select codes updated properly.  It also
> implies that all loaders are written to reference select code 10 (or 10 and
> 11, etc.).
>
>  3b) The two's-complement of the memory address of the first word of the
>      loader is stored in the last word in memory.
>
> This is so that loaders can check that what they are loading does not
> overwrite the loader itself.  For example, the paper tape loader does a HLT
> 55 if the absolute binary tape contains a record that would overlay the
> loader executable code.
>
>  3c) The contents of the penultimate memory location is patched by adding
>      the select code value in the switch register minus 10.
>
> This is used to patch the select code into an optional DCPC control word,
> which is a constant and not an I/O instruction and so wouldn't be patched
> by (3a).  Loaders that use DCPC, e.g., the disc loaders, place their DCPC
> control word at this location.
>
> There's actually quite a lot going on under the hood for that IBL button
> press.
>
>                                       -- Dave
>

For the curious the source code for the Initial Binary Loader
microcode is listed on pages D-16 and D-17 of this manual:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Mar81_1.1.pdf

It is reasonably well commented, but still not completely obvious
exactly what and why it is doing what it is doing without something
like Dave's explanation above.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 14 04:40:05 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 11:40:05 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
Message-ID: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>

While checking my repaired KDJ11-A M8192 Board with xxdp I get
the following error:

BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR


XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
REVISION: F0
BOOTED FROM DL3
124KW OF MEMORY
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
TYPE "H" FOR HELP !

.R ZKDJB2.BIC
ZKDJB2.BIC

ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS
ERROR # =001166
ERROR PC =040662
043632
@

The Board is working flawlessly otherwise.

Can please someone with such a CPU can do a similar test and what does this
error mean? I get this error with two different J11 Chips.

In the Docs 
( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf)

is shown thatthe test should ask for a Switch Register setting, in my case
it doesn't. Is the test defective?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 14 07:50:54 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 07:50:54 -0500
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net>

I have fiche for ZKDJB0, and fortunately it seems to match at this
particular error and address.

"This test looks for BEVENT to Interrupt when BIT 6 in the BEVENT
Control register is set and interrupt priority level is set to 5".

The particular error that you identify occurs as the result of an EMT
trap anywhere during the test.  However, the most likely error would be
that the BEVENT interrupt did not occur.  It would seem that the most
likely cause is that you have not configured the LTC clock interrupt -
but I am on my way out the door so I don't have time to look at the
KDJ11 manual to confirm this.

You can bypass this test by setting bit 10 of the XXDP switch register
to 1.  This is something you don in XXDP *before* you start the test
program (before you enter the "R" command).

JRJ


On 9/14/2015 4:40 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> While checking my repaired KDJ11-A M8192 Board with xxdp I get
> the following error:
> 
> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR
> 
> 
> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
> REVISION: F0
> BOOTED FROM DL3
> 124KW OF MEMORY
> NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM
> 
> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
> TYPE "H" FOR HELP !
> 
> .R ZKDJB2.BIC
> ZKDJB2.BIC
> 
> ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS
> ERROR # =001166
> ERROR PC =040662
> 043632
> @
> 
> The Board is working flawlessly otherwise.
> 
> Can please someone with such a CPU can do a similar test and what does this
> error mean? I get this error with two different J11 Chips.
> 
> In the Docs 
> ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf)
> 
> is shown thatthe test should ask for a Switch Register setting, in my case
> it doesn't. Is the test defective?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 14 10:09:37 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 17:09:37 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jay Jaeger wrote:

> I have fiche for ZKDJB0, and fortunately it seems to match at this
> particular error and address.
> 
> "This test looks for BEVENT to Interrupt when BIT 6 in the BEVENT
> Control register is set and interrupt priority level is set to 5".
> 
> The particular error that you identify occurs as the result of an EMT
> trap anywhere during the test.  However, the most likely error would be
> that the BEVENT interrupt did not occur.  It would seem that the most
> likely cause is that you have not configured the LTC clock interrupt -
> but I am on my way out the door so I don't have time to look at the
> KDJ11 manual to confirm this.


Ok, that could be possible. So far as I know there is a jumper on the Front
Panel PCB where one ca disable the LTC signal. I had an KDF-11 previously
in this crate and I think to remember that LTC maked some trouble in some
circumstances. I'll chack that...
> 
> You can bypass this test by setting bit 10 of the XXDP switch register
> to 1.  This is something you don in XXDP *before* you start the test
> program (before you enter the "R" command).
> 
> JRJ

Hmm.. most programs display something like "SW=000000 New Value=?", the
ZKDJB2.BIC does not, but it is described this way in the manual..

Thanks anyway, I'll check this..

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 14 13:10:22 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:10:22 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Jay Jaeger wrote:
> 
> > I have fiche for ZKDJB0, and fortunately it seems to match at this
> > particular error and address.
> > 
> > "This test looks for BEVENT to Interrupt when BIT 6 in the BEVENT
> > Control register is set and interrupt priority level is set to 5".
> > 
> > The particular error that you identify occurs as the result of an EMT
> > trap anywhere during the test.  However, the most likely error would be
> > that the BEVENT interrupt did not occur.  It would seem that the most
> > likely cause is that you have not configured the LTC clock interrupt -
> > but I am on my way out the door so I don't have time to look at the
> > KDJ11 manual to confirm this.
> 
> 
> Ok, that could be possible. So far as I know there is a jumper on the Front
> Panel PCB where one ca disable the LTC signal. I had an KDF-11 previously
> in this crate and I think to remember that LTC maked some trouble in some
> circumstances. I'll chack that...
> > 
> > You can bypass this test by setting bit 10 of the XXDP switch register
> > to 1.  This is something you don in XXDP *before* you start the test
> > program (before you enter the "R" command).
> > 
> > JRJ
> 
> Hmm.. most programs display something like "SW=000000 New Value=?", the
> ZKDJB2.BIC does not, but it is described this way in the manual..
> 
> Thanks anyway, I'll check this..
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm

Ok, the test is running fine now ..
I had to enable BEVENT with Switch 1 on the BA23 front panel (was disabled)
but still the same error. Next I removed W9 from the M8192 Module and it
works now. :-|

Please, can someone from the natural english speakers here explain
how this sentence is meant:

"ZKDJB2
This diagnostic tests the KDJ11 basic instruction set including EIS,
TRAPS and the alternate register set. Ensure that halt trap option is
disabled (jumper W9 installed)."

For me (as a german) that means that the jumper W9 has to be installed
to run the test, but it seems that it must be removed (as it originally
was)..?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 14 13:21:05 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 18:21:05 +0000
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net>
 <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>,
 <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D453A@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> 
> Please, can someone from the natural english speakers here explain
> how this sentence is meant:
> 
> "ZKDJB2
> This diagnostic tests the KDJ11 basic instruction set including EIS,
> TRAPS and the alternate register set. Ensure that halt trap option is
> disabled (jumper W9 installed)."
> 

To me this means 

It tests that the instructions are executed correctly. These instructions include
the EIS and trap instructions. It tests the alternate regster set as well

The 'halt trap option' (whatever that may be) must be disabled. To disable this
you fit jumper W9. Therefore W9 must be fitted to run this test.


> For me (as a german) that means that the jumper W9 has to be installed
> to run the test, but it seems that it must be removed (as it originally
> was)..?

Yes, that's how I understand it too. 

-tony

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Sep 14 13:28:40 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Please, can someone from the natural english speakers here explain
> how this sentence is meant:

> "ZKDJB2  [...].  Ensure that halt trap option is disabled (jumper W9
> installed)."

> For me (as a german) that means that the jumper W9 has to be
> installed to run the test,

That would be my first interpretation too: that it is a directive
addressed to someone putatively running the test.  It _might_ mean that
the test also tests to ensure that the jumper is installed.

I see nothing there that would justify the test failing when the jumper
is installed but working when it's removed.  To me, that indicates that
something is broken: perhaps the hardware or perhaps the description
you quote (offhand, from the tiny amount I know of this case, my guess
would be that it's the text you quote that's wrong).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep 14 13:37:45 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:37:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
Message-ID: <20150914183745.35A2F18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    >  "Ensure that halt trap option is disabled (jumper W9 installed)."

Well, either that was transcribed incorrectly, or the person who wrote it
confused. On the M8192, per EK-KDJ1A-UG-002, pg. 2-1, W_5_ is the halt trap
option, and W9 is... BEVENT recognition. One removes W9 to enable the LTC
(using the QBUS BEVNT line).

Which kind of explains your results... :-)

	Noel

PS: BTW, the M8190 (KDJ11-B) in similar - the onboard ROM diagostics barf if
the LTC isn't on (i.e. the switch on the chassis to enable BEVNT has to be
on).

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 14 13:37:22 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 18:37:22 +0000
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>,
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> That would be my first interpretation too: that it is a directive
> addressed to someone putatively running the test.  It _might_ mean that
> the test also tests to ensure that the jumper is installed.

There is another interpretation that I have just realised. If this is the right one
then whoever wrote that documentation need a dose of the clue-by-four!

But here it is : 

In order to completely test the CPU logic with this diagnostic, the 'halt trap option'
must be disabled. To do this, fit jumper W9.

If the 'halt trap option' is enabled then there are some faults that the diagnostic can't
find, Therefore if W9 is not fitted a CPU module with a fault may pass the diagnostic


But that would be a very unnatural way for me to understand it, and I would think whoever
wrote something with that meaning was being deliberately confusing.

-tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 14 13:55:13 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:55:13 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150914185513.GB27534@beast.freibergnet.de>

Mouse wrote:

> > Please, can someone from the natural english speakers here explain
> > how this sentence is meant:
> 
> > "ZKDJB2  [...].  Ensure that halt trap option is disabled (jumper W9
> > installed)."
> 
> > For me (as a german) that means that the jumper W9 has to be
> > installed to run the test,
> 
> That would be my first interpretation too: that it is a directive
> addressed to someone putatively running the test.  It _might_ mean that
> the test also tests to ensure that the jumper is installed.
> 
> I see nothing there that would justify the test failing when the jumper
> is installed but working when it's removed.  To me, that indicates that
> something is broken: perhaps the hardware or perhaps the description
> you quote (offhand, from the tiny amount I know of this case, my guess
> would be that it's the text you quote that's wrong).
> 
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


Hmm, the text is to be found here:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf

page 1-78.

The interresting thing is that this page states clearly:

".R ZKDJ??

SWR = 000000 NEW ="

..and other programms are behaving exactly like that, but not that
ZKDJB2.BIC test I have:



.R ZKDJB2.BIC
ZKDJB2.BIC

CZKDJ-B-0 KDJ11 CPU DIAGNOSTIC
CZKDJB END PASS #     1
CZKDJB END PASS #     2
CZKDJB END PASS #     3
CZKDJB END PASS #     4
CZKDJB END PASS #     5
CZKDJB END PASS #     6
CZKDJB END PASS #     7
CZKDJB END PASS #     8
CZKDJB END PASS #     9
...

CZKDJ-B-0
        ^
      Huh?

If the line clock is disabled I get the error like this:

BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR


XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
REVISION: F0
BOOTED FROM DL3
124KW OF MEMORY
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
TYPE "H" FOR HELP !

.R ZKDJB2.BIC
ZKDJB2.BIC

ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS
ERROR # =001166
ERROR PC =040662
043632
@

..regardless how exactly it is disabled. Here I have done this trough
switching the clock off with the DIP Switch on the front Panel PCB.
Exactly the same occurs if I put the Jumper W9 on the pins and let the
Switch in the On position.
At the bottom of the description page:
"New revision of DCJ11 (J11 CPU Chip) chip has a change to fix a problem
found with ASH and ASHC instructions. The old diagnostics (REV B1) will
fail with the new DCJ11 chip set installed.
You need a patch."

....??$&/#%*/??

What is an old chip an what is a new one? There are several revisions of
J11 Chips out there...

So the question is: Was the writer of the test description drunk?

All other tests  I've tried (MMU, FP, Memory) are ok, regardless wich
J11 I'm inserting and if the board is running with 15.2 or 18Mhz Clock.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 14 14:02:42 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 21:02:42 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <20150914190242.GC27534@beast.freibergnet.de>

tony duell wrote:

> 
> > That would be my first interpretation too: that it is a directive
> > addressed to someone putatively running the test.  It _might_ mean that
> > the test also tests to ensure that the jumper is installed.
> 
> There is another interpretation that I have just realised. If this is the right one
> then whoever wrote that documentation need a dose of the clue-by-four!

H?h? What's that "clue-by-four!" ? :-)

> 
> But here it is : 
> 
> In order to completely test the CPU logic with this diagnostic, the 'halt trap option'
> must be disabled. To do this, fit jumper W9.
> 
> If the 'halt trap option' is enabled then there are some faults that the diagnostic can't
> find, Therefore if W9 is not fitted a CPU module with a fault may pass the diagnostic
> 
> 
> But that would be a very unnatural way for me to understand it, and I would think whoever
> wrote something with that meaning was being deliberately confusing.
> 
> -tony

...needless to say that the manual for the KDJ11-A means that the jumper
W9 isn't a "halt trap option", it says "W9  Removed   BEVNT Register enabled"

2.2.5 BEVNT Recognition
The LSI-11 bus signal BEVNT provides an external event interrupt request to
the processor. This feature is disabled when the W9 jumper is installed and
disables the line time clock register. When the jumper is removed, the
BEVNT input is recognized and is under control of the line time clock
register.
...

...no, need no fucking manual... :-)

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Sep 14 14:04:57 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 19:04:57 +0000
Subject: Various Software and Documentation for shipping + donations
In-Reply-To: <046d01d0ee60$6c789fa0$4569dee0$@gmail.com>
References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com>
 <CAFrGgTRTF7u+5DBR=i2hHQ4-6w1+x_JYX-TfQBVdSzgwdhcyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com>
 <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com> <046d01d0ee60$6c789fa0$4569dee0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <36947550-C088-4996-B399-30CE93568828@swri.edu>

All,
	I'm trying to help Cindy find homes for some of what's left from her warehouse. I can hold them only temporarily, but if any of this interests you please contact me ASAP via Private (not list) email at mtapley at swri.edu.

	If you do want something, send me your shipping address and exactly what you want. I'll get back to you with estimated shipping costs (USPS media rate where possible) as soon as I can. You send me payment (any method is acceptable; USPS does not recommend cash in the mail) and I will ship when payment arrives. If you want Fed-Ex or something different from USPS media let me know at your first contact and I will price that for you. If you can afford to send slightly more than costs, I'll collect up the surplus for Cindy.
	If more than one person wants the same thing, it goes to the person sending me the earliest time-tagged email. 
	If Al K. wants anything for Bitsavers, he gets priority (even if his is not the first email) up until it leaves my hands.

	There will be multiple sets of email from me, each with a short list of things.

	Thanks for your attention!
											- Mark


	This one is all software in (apparently) complete sets, including manuals. I have not tested install media in any way.

SCO Open Server Enterprise System Manual Set Release 3.0 (SCO, for 386/486 on ISA, EISA, MCA buses)
	Release Notes
	Installation/upgrade Guide
	Administrator's Guide
	Tutorial
	Hardware Configuration Guide
	Graphical Environment Administrator's Guide
	User's Guide
	Administrator's Guide and Reference
	Overview
	INSTALL MEDIA: Tape Cartridge

Mike Ditka Ultimate Football (Accolade, for IBM AT, 100% compatibles, VGA, MCGA, 640k, hard drive, 16 MHz)
	Manual
	decoder wheel
	INSTALL MEDIA: 3.5" floppy

Mental Blocks (Avantage, for IBM PC, XT, AT, PS/2, others; requires 256k OR Commodore C64/C64C/C128)
	Single sheet install/use guide
	registration and advertizing materals
	INSTALL MEDIA: 5.25" floppy (one floppy, labelled for Commodore or PC)

SuperStor Personal Edition (addstor, for MS-DOS/PC-DOS version 3.2 or later, 640k, 2 MB hard drive)
	User's Guide
	INSTALL MEDIA: 3.5" floppy

SuperStor Personal Edition (second copy) (addstor, for MS-DOS/PC-DOS version 3.2 or later, 640k, 2 MB hard drive)
	User's Guide
	INSTALL MEDIA: 3.5" floppy

Disk Manager Hard Disk Installation Utility (Ontrack, for DOS, OS-2/Warp, Windows 3.x/95/NT)
	Clever disk folder/install/use card
	INSTALL MEDIA: 3.5" floppy

	The following two are in shrink-wrap which I have not opened, so I can't verify install media present.
	
SPI WindowBase Version 2.0 (Zenith Data Systems, version 2.001-77) (in shrink-wrap, manual plus cardboard)
	Users' Guide
	Cardboard fold-up, possibly including media, etc.

CheckFree Electronic Bill Payment System (Tandy, for "PC-Compatible", requires 512k, modem) (in shrink-wrapped box)
	Software
	User's Guide
	Enrollment Information
	One month of Free Service :-)



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Sep 14 14:20:49 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 15:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914190242.GC27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150914190242.GC27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <201509141920.PAA04210@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> [...] a dose of the clue-by-four!
> H?h? What's that "clue-by-four!" ? :-)

The :-) makes it look as though you actually know what it is, but your
asking for native-anglophone help makes me think perhaps not.  So I'm
going to treat this as the request for idiom explanation it looks like
on the surface, with no insult intended if you did indeed already know
the idiom.  There may well be people here who don't but just haven't
spoken up.

It's an English computer-geek idiom.  It's playing on the common term
"two-by-four" for a size of wood such as is used in building houses
(which originally was two inches by four inches in cross-section but
these days is significantly smaller, more like 13/8 by 7/2).  Cross
"clue" (as in "get a clue") with the notion of thwacking someone with a
two-by-four to get an idea into an idea-resistant victim, and out comes
the "clue-by-four", the notional object with which one whacks someone
to impart a clue.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 14 15:53:12 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 15:53:12 -0500
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150914181022.GA27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55F733B8.5080808@charter.net>

On 9/14/2015 1:10 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> 
> Ok, the test is running fine now ..
> I had to enable BEVENT with Switch 1 on the BA23 front panel (was disabled)
> but still the same error. Next I removed W9 from the M8192 Module and it
> works now. :-|
> 
> Please, can someone from the natural english speakers here explain
> how this sentence is meant:
> 
> "ZKDJB2
> This diagnostic tests the KDJ11 basic instruction set including EIS,
> TRAPS and the alternate register set. Ensure that halt trap option is
> disabled (jumper W9 installed)."
> 
> For me (as a german) that means that the jumper W9 has to be installed
> to run the test, but it seems that it must be removed (as it originally
> was)..?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 

I see that same lanuage in the B0 version.

The KDJ11-A manual says that the factory default configuration for W9 is
*removed* meaning that BEVNT is ENABLED.  Which I think is what you need
for the test to succeed.

>From the manual (available on Bitsavers, by the way, at
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/PDP1173/KDJ11-A_UsersManua.pdf )

"2.2.5  BEVNT Recognition
The LSI-11 bus signal BEVNT provides an external event interrupt request
to the processor.  This feature is disabled when the W9 jumper is
installed, and disables the line time clock register.  When the jumper
is removed, the BEVNT input is recognized and is under control of the
line time clock register.  Specifically, the signal is recognized by the
module when bit 06 of the line time clock register is set (1) and
disabled when bit 06 is not set (0).  The line time clock register
address is 17 777 546 and is a read/write register"

So, with that jumper in, BEVNT would still be disabled, so no LTC
interrupt, so I would indeed expect the same error in the same place as
if you had the LTC disabled.

Incidentally, the diagnostic listing I have indicates that to change the
switch register, first load the diagnostic, and then halt it, and change
location 176 to the desired value.

Also, the diagnostic listing indicates that if you are using something
called "APT" (which I am not familiar with - presumably is some kind of
alternative to XXDP) then:

1) The RESET instruction is not tested
2) Switch register bit 10 is set so that BEVNT is not tested under APT
3) The serial line unit test is executed only on the first pass
4) The red zone trap test behaves differently.  If a red zone trap
occurs, it will retry the test one more time.  If it then succeeds, then
the diagnostic presumes that the error was APT induced.

JRJ

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 15:53:10 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 16:53:10 -0400
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2> <55F1BB7A.90508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <81B7C076B08145A784E2D000B712814D@310e2>

Thanks for confirming that these cards are indeed
from a CD display unit; here's the model info:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y78OZlnQIMA/Vfcy4SwF3gI/AAAAAAAAAW0/sVPC0C8y9BY/s912-Ic42/DSCI0005.JPG

But after all that I take it they're of no use to 
anyone and I can scrap them with a clear 
conscience?

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards


> On 9/10/15 9:23 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> Not very interesting
>>
>
> backside is all-telling.
> DD12092 is the part number. DD == "Data Display"
> the display division of CDC
>
> they are the form factor that DD used. I picked
> up a 3291-B display
> controller manual from Billy Pettit yesteray,
> and is uses discrete
> cards in the same shape.
>
> cans are Fairchild, circa 72/73
>
>
>
>


From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 13:43:19 2015
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:43:19 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>

I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic
Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting
healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a
future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the
PDP family, et. al., still running?

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 14 16:54:49 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:54:49 -0700
Subject: Control Data (?) circuit boards
In-Reply-To: <81B7C076B08145A784E2D000B712814D@310e2>
References: <535FEF0AB75D45DA936D24E4C5AF30AB@RosemarysPC>
 <55F04EBE.3040406@charter.net>
 <CABGJBudMvbTJgRDJJ8YwcrFhXhW9pzyatS3DU44tCYoHi7tBmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <19E1C60344114289B93DB4CE7C30CD50@310e2>
 <CANij+df5gpenS5+=BHeORrpAv+WHmP70yKjYN+5+6_dQ8_YDfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FD4F533125804545A6CE12F5155BC817@310e2> <55F1BB7A.90508@bitsavers.org>
 <81B7C076B08145A784E2D000B712814D@310e2>
Message-ID: <55F74229.1060106@sydex.com>

On 09/14/2015 01:53 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> Thanks for confirming that these cards are indeed from a CD display
> unit; here's the model info:
>
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y78OZlnQIMA/Vfcy4SwF3gI/AAAAAAAAAW0/sVPC0C8y9BY/s912-Ic42/DSCI0005.JPG
>
>
> But after all that I take it they're of no use to anyone and I can
> scrap them with a clear conscience?

Well, I note the QSE tag on the controller housing.  That means that 
what was special about this controller is anyone's guess.  I doubt that 
there's any extant information about the specific unit.  CDC engineered 
a ton of QSEs back in the day.

--Chuck


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 14 17:38:51 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 00:38:51 +0200
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F74C7B.8080101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-14 20:43, Murray McCullough wrote:
> I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic
> Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting
> healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a
> future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the
> PDP family, et. al., still running?
>
> Happy computing.
>
> Murray  :)

Can't answer in general, but my PDP-11/93 have a DDS-3, an Exabyte and a 
TK50 running.

Update have a couple of PDP-11/70 systems, and have tape drives on them, 
although our TU81 currently seems dead.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Mon Sep 14 17:56:15 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 16:56:15 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

The death of tape is greatly exagerated.

My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
cartridges that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be
written on the tape with astonishing speed.

On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges because
40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days so I now
can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS box here
at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box at home.
As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 18:13:53 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 00:13:53 +0100
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>

I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off-site
replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
tape.....

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> Loken
> Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> 
> The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
> 
> My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
> library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
cartridges
> that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on
the
> tape with astonishing speed.
> 
> On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days
so I
> now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS
> box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box
> at home.
> As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
> cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
> 
> --
>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> father
>    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
'daddy'"
>    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon Sep 14 19:37:04 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 19:37:04 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
Message-ID: <85070D7A257A4D89916CB1A5E7D44062@CharlesHPLaptop>

Recall that the other day, I was seeing this on running AJRLHA.DG:

STATE NOT 5 AFTER SEEK WITH 0 DIFFERENCE (this error and register dump
prints twice in succession. State 5 = Lock-on, keeping on track).
WD1 0317 (lower head, heads not out, spin-down)
WD2 0204 (write data error, write gate error). This one worries me. WDE is
"write gate on but no transitions on write data line". The drive should
never be trying to write when there is no data being sent, and this
diagnostic program does not do any writes to disk! So a fault, head
retraction and shutdown is the proper response to this fatal error. I'll
have to put a logic analyzer on the appropriate bits and see why it thinks
it's supposed to be writing... or where the command came from.

ERROR FLAG SET
ER 2000 (Operation incomplete within 200 ms). Probably because the drive
shut down when the WDE error occurred.
CB 0003 (Seek)

Today the fault immediately on starting the test is still present (and yes, 
Henk, it did occur to me that there might be something wrong with the 
diagnostic because all the others work! Has anyone got the source code for 
AJRLHA?)

However, there are different initial errors today!

Diagnostic starts
(Fault light comes on immediately):
Prints this block twice:
Error flag set
ER 2002 (Operation incomplete, Drive error)
CB 0103 (12-bit data mode, Seek state). <--- This seems to be OK, 8-bit mode 
is required for Maintenance, Get Status or Read Header, but not Seek 
command)

then Error flag set
ER 2000, CB 0103; (same as above but no Drive error)

Fault light goes off;

then ER not as expected but error flag not set:
WD1 0235 (Heads out, upper head locked on track)
WD2 0002 (volume check bit)
ER 0003 (Drive error; Drive ready);

WD1 0335 (same except lower head)
WD2 0002 (volume check bit)
ER 0003 (Drive error; Drive ready);

Per the user's manual, the Fault light only comes on with the following 
errors:
1 Drive-select error,
2 Seek time-out error,
3 Write current in heads (during sector time) error,
4 Loss of system clock (this condition is not latched and not represented in 
status word),
5 Write-protect error,
6 Write data error,
7 Spin error.

I am confident that the reported fault is not 1, 4, 5 or 7. The drive is 
being selected properly, works except on initial test, the write protect 
switch is not set, and the drive stays spinning with Ready light on when not 
being accessed.

However, that still leaves a seek time-out (reported today) or a write error 
(seen two days ago) when there shouldn't *be* any writes.
I really want to find out why the drive previously thought it was being told 
to write, at the wrong time.

I just had a new idea:
What if a command register is being corrupted between the setting by the 
program, and the drive electronics?
Say a Write Data command (CB xxx5) is erroneously received by the drive but 
the proper registers for a write have not been set up. That would Fault the 
drive and the diagnostic would report an error.
Another example: The diagnostic is issuing the proper Seek command (CB 
xxx3), but the drive is actually receiving something else, so the expected 
seek would time-out in the diagnostic, and depending on the command the 
drive actually is reading, could light the Fault too .
When attempting to run Dumprest for RL during the previous session, I had to 
add retries for seeking because the program would halt with a seek error 
there too.

So I'm now suspicious of an intermittent or partial short (another whisker?) 
between the command registers and the drive. Maybe it's not "hearing" the 
controller properly! It's even got the correct expensive DEC cables between 
the card and the drives, and a terminator on the farthest drive.

Jon wrote:
>I'm pretty far away from competence on PDP-8s anymore, but the symptoms 
>sound like maybe the drive faults on LONG seeks, but as long as the seeks 
>are short, it works OK.  There might be a one-shot in the controller that 
>allows so many ms for a seek to complete, and due to aging capacitors, the 
>delay is now too short.  But, that's a totally wild guess, there could be 
>troubles in the drive seek electronics that only occur on longer seeks.

That's an interesting SWAG, thanks :)
I checked the 22 uf capacitor (and 39K resistor) that provide the timeout 
delay. They are OK. If anything the 22 uf is well on the high side, thus 
giving a longer delay.

Time to toggle in some more programs I guess.
What really bugs me is that this whole system was completely working for 
years... up until it didn't :P


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 19:38:42 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 19:38:42 -0500
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>

To the cloud, to the CLOUD!!

=P

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want
> off-site
> replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
> tape.....
>
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> > Loken
> > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> >
> > The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
> >
> > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
> > library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
> cartridges
> > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on
> the
> > tape with astonishing speed.
> >
> > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days
> so I
> > now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS
> > box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box
> > at home.
> > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
> > cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
> >
> > --
> >    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> > father
> >    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to
> earn
> >    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
> 'daddy'"
> >    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston
>
>
>

From ethan at 757.org  Mon Sep 14 20:26:36 2015
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 21:26:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509142124520.32673@users.757.org>



> cartridges that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be
> written on the tape with astonishing speed.

30Tbyte compressed*
(100Gbyte uncompressed)




--
Ethan O'Toole


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon Sep 14 20:40:08 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:40:08 -0500
Subject: Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR
 settings?)
Message-ID: <97AF8B2D8968487B9AFB0CC72CD5AE89@CharlesHPLaptop>

More testing this evening.

Drive 1 ran for 8 ten-minute AJRLIA read-write passes before I stopped it, 
with a single error flagged during pass 6:
WD1 0235
WD2 0000
ER 4001
CB 1117
indicating a Data CRC error and a Read header without CRC command. Not 
completely unexpected, a lot of data is being read and written and there is 
a soft error rate of 1 in 10^9 bits and hard error rate of 1 in 10^12, IIRC.

Meanwhile I keyed in the Oscillating Seek program from the RL01/02 Users 
Guide manual (page C-6) and set it for 511 cylinders. It seeks without any 
problems swinging the head from Track 0 to Track 511 and back, on both 
drives. No Fault, no nothing except seeking. Perhaps I was overthinking the 
"wrong command" theory.
I did reseat the 2708 EPROM (state machine) on the controller card.

One VERY interesting thing I learned from a close reading of the manual and 
this test program though:
The controller reports Ready status *immediately* when a seek command is 
given, even though the seek has not completed!!  (pg. 5-15, para 5.3.4)
And that seek can take up to 100 ms for 511 tracks on an RL02. A long time 
in computer terms, even at 1.6 us per instruction cycle...

Now I'm wondering if AJRLHA diagnostic doesn't wait long enough for the seek 
to complete before trying something else. The Oscillating Seek does (by 
calling for a dummy Read Header command).
Still don't understand the Write error that shouldn't have been there from 
that diagnostic... Not happening tonight though.

I can run RL2FMT on either drive, boot OS/8 with no problems (other than the 
brief flash of both Fault lights), PIP files from one drive to the other.
Could OS/8 do its initial Seek without waiting long enough for it to 
complete, too?
Would love to hear from any experts on the internal workings of OS/8 
especially relating to RL02's.

-Charles


From cctalk at snarc.net  Mon Sep 14 21:55:11 2015
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 22:55:11 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F7888F.7080409@snarc.net>


> I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the PDP family, et. al., still running?

I cringed a little when I saw the headline TR put on that story. The 
story is saying that * some people argue * tape is having another 
chance. It's not * me * saying it, I'm just reporting....

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Sep 14 22:02:54 2015
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:02:54 +0000
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>,
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FF959E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

I work for a VAR, and we've sold a fair number of IBM TS7650G ProtecTIER VTL's backed by Storewide V7000 disk.  It basically emulates a bunch of LTO3 drives and cartridges, and does excellent deduplication when writing.  If you have two, they'll replicate.  It makes a great backup and DR solution and is a fairly straightforward shoehorn into existing tape-based workflows.  Then again, there is still lots of tape out there, and as was pointed out earlier, the technology is always improving, and rapidly.  Not everyone is looking to go disk-only, either. (yet)  The more data you have to store, the more and more tape makes sense. 

-Ben


________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Dave G4UGM [dave.g4ugm at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 4:13 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Is tape dead?

I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off-site
replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
tape.....

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> Loken
> Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
>
> The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
>
> My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
> library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
cartridges
> that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on
the
> tape with astonishing speed.
>
> On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days
so I
> now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS
> box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box
> at home.
> As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
> cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
>
> --
>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> father
>    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
'daddy'"
>    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From cctalk at snarc.net  Mon Sep 14 22:14:10 2015
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 23:14:10 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FF959E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E769FF959E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <55F78D02.5050707@snarc.net>

For those who can't be bothered to read the article :)  it basically 
talks about a perspective that the rise in flash arrays will kill disk 
arrays while tape continues to chug along as cheap reliable backup.

From cctalk at snarc.net  Mon Sep 14 22:16:33 2015
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 23:16:33 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F78D91.8070604@snarc.net>

Oops, just realized nobody posted the link:
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/tape-isnt-dying-its-getting-healthier-and-smarter/

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 22:19:19 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 22:19:19 -0500
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F7888F.7080409@snarc.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F7888F.7080409@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <20150915031919.GO3303@gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote:
> 
> >I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the PDP family, et. al., still running?
> 
> I cringed a little when I saw the headline TR put on that story. The story
> is saying that * some people argue * tape is having another chance. It's not
> * me * saying it, I'm just reporting....

What?? Headline writers take things in directions the authors didn't
intend??

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Sep 14 17:56:15 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 18:56:15 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F74C7B.8080101@update.uu.se>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F74C7B.8080101@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWxo7PX3H1Z7yenJH==8GZYyCPC4zk=-_MDfAx7-b06bg@mail.gmail.com>

We just procured a new Overland LTO-6 library this year at work so I can
tell you from direct experience that tape is not dead! Although
direct-to-disk and to-tape backup cost has more or less converged from a
price standpoint, there are still some nice aspects of tape ... you get
practically infinite storage in a finite number of rack units ... you don't
need to keep whole racks of disks on the data center floor, powered up;
they're more conducive to off-site archival and so on.

I've tried to use tape at home mostly as a backup media at least a few
times ... with DAT, with QIC ... with 8 mm ... and of course I've played
with the older DEC cartridge tapes i.e. TK50/TK70 ... never had much luck
with them ... I think the transports are pretty "used up" by the time they
get to me ... I still do have a few TK50 drives, a DAT and a QIC ... I
don't have much media left ... a few TK50 cartridges and a box of QIC tapes
where the rollers have turned to goop ...

It would be a hoot to get a 9-track in here someday to play with but I
wouldn't want to spend a whole lot of dough on it ...

So, I think tape has bright prospects both in production IT as well as in
the hobbyist environment yet :O

Best,

Sean





On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-09-14 20:43, Murray McCullough wrote:
>
>> I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic
>> Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting
>> healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a
>> future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the
>> PDP family, et. al., still running?
>>
>> Happy computing.
>>
>> Murray  :)
>>
>
> Can't answer in general, but my PDP-11/93 have a DDS-3, an Exabyte and a
> TK50 running.
>
> Update have a couple of PDP-11/70 systems, and have tape drives on them,
> although our TU81 currently seems dead.
>
>         Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 02:47:37 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 01:47:37 -0600
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>

I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer
operating systems, by which I mean only operating systems that run on
computers using single-chip microprocessors such as 8008, 8080, and
6800, but not the LSI-11, IMP-16, HP 9830, etc.

Intel's ISIS operating system for their MDS was first released in
1975, but I haven't been able to pin down a month. I'm looking for a
more specific date for that, and for the releases of any prior
microcomputer operating system.

On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. Hzl also
suggested Forth, which I also don't really consider to be an operating
system in the traditional sense, but if there's evidence of Forth or a
Forth-like language available for a microcomputer prior to 1976, that
would be interesting as well.

From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Tue Sep 15 03:01:34 2015
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 18:01:34 +1000
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdxRXaRhfDyJpj3Tny_cZk3kXp0P7qC5+LOhXmy6_=6fPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer
> operating systems

Are you including or excluding systems like the APL-based Intel 8008 MCM/70?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70

circa 1974 - I guess Zbigniew's book might provide a precise introductory date.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep 15 03:02:50 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:02:50 +0200
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <201509141920.PAA04210@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150914190242.GC27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141920.PAA04210@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150915080249.GA72184@beast.freibergnet.de>

Mouse wrote:

> >> [...] a dose of the clue-by-four!
> > H?h? What's that "clue-by-four!" ? :-)
> 
> The :-) makes it look as though you actually know what it is, but your
> asking for native-anglophone help makes me think perhaps not.  So I'm
> going to treat this as the request for idiom explanation it looks like
> on the surface, with no insult intended if you did indeed already know
> the idiom.  There may well be people here who don't but just haven't
> spoken up.

I've googled and saw a picture with some woodstick..that's all.

> 
> It's an English computer-geek idiom.  It's playing on the common term
> "two-by-four" for a size of wood such as is used in building houses
> (which originally was two inches by four inches in cross-section but
> these days is significantly smaller, more like 13/8 by 7/2).  Cross
> "clue" (as in "get a clue") with the notion of thwacking someone with a
> two-by-four to get an idea into an idea-resistant victim, and out comes
> the "clue-by-four", the notional object with which one whacks someone
> to impart a clue.
> 
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Got it, thx.

So this means the use of an "argument amplifier" or a "discussion wood"...
(translated from german)

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Tue Sep 15 03:31:58 2015
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 18:31:58 +1000
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdykX3iU2UJBQCO28pKzRocxwkKP2Uf252H7a740AjS9-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
> 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system.

Given the constraints of the systems of that time (speed, memory size,
peripheral support) the line between monitor and "operating system"
might be tricky to specify.

Here's another interesting marginal candidate:

DEC MPS

A three board Omnibus set that contained an Intel 8008, memory and IO
- it had a resident monitor on the KC341 control panel.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:34:51 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:34:51 +0100
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02c301d0ef91$64168c00$2c43a400$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 8:48 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel
> ISIS
> 
> I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer operating
> systems, by which I mean only operating systems that run on computers
> using single-chip microprocessors such as 8008, 8080, and 6800, but not the
> LSI-11, IMP-16, HP 9830, etc.
> 

But would you rule out the IM6100. Rather than being a PDP-8 on a chip, it was really more a chip that stole the PDP-8 OS....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersil_6100

> Intel's ISIS operating system for their MDS was first released in 1975, but I
> haven't been able to pin down a month. I'm looking for a more specific date
> for that, and for the releases of any prior microcomputer operating system.
> 
> On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
> 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. 

Define an "operating system". If you have no disks what could have gone into MikBug that wasn't there?
... but perhaps you meant DISK Operating System..

Actually to answer my own question the address of the character i/o routines "INCH" and "OUCH" are not designed for portability and 
later Monitors such as SWTBUG had to jump through (small) hoops to retain compatibility...

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/swtbug/SWTBUG_Users_Guide.pdf


> Hzl also suggested
> Forth, which I also don't really consider to be an operating system in the
> traditional sense, but if there's evidence of Forth or a Forth-like language
> available for a microcomputer prior to 1976, that would be interesting as well.

Looks like FLEX for the 6809 was also 1976... 

http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/fug3.htm

BUT I don't believe ISIS became an operating system until 1976 when ISIS II added support for disks....

http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/isis.html#DDJ

and the ISIS II manual has 1976 on Bitsavers has 1976 as the first  Copyright.....

Dave

P.S. Often the search for "First" is fruitless, and folks will twist the arguments to suit their needs. So the Manchester SSEM and ENIAC argue constantly argue about the first program.
So although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves, and the Manchester folks argue this was not an "electronic program".
Moving on is "Core" electronic storage? So did we have a long wait between the IBM 701 and the first machine with semi-conductor store when we had no computers using electronic storage...






From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:39:57 2015
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:39:57 +0100
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
Message-ID: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>

Morning folks,

I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
sure.

Anyone?

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:51:55 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 02:51:55 -0600
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT5bcsQfBv_OWHj7D3nJ478S+HSrh=Ke4e7tzvoRDoJpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Adrian Graham
<binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.

When IBM introduced the floppy disk in 1971, they were 8-inch, and
that became industry standard, partially supplanted by 5 1/4" when
Shugart introduced those in 1976, then 3.5" introduced by Sony and HP
in 1982. There were a few other oddball sizes like 4", 3 1/4", 3", 2
1/2", and 2", but none of them were very successful. The market
pressure was always to reduce the size of the medium, so I can't
imagine why anyone would have made 12" floppy disks.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:03:05 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <02c301d0ef91$64168c00$2c43a400$@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <02c301d0ef91$64168c00$2c43a400$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSW2DRvbVhzLTC9d8xoLUW52XN5=+ViyOU4tuF9B5HpOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like FLEX for the 6809 was also 1976...

A neat trick since the 6809 wasn't introduced until 1978. I assume
what is really meant is FLEX for the 6800.

> BUT I don't believe ISIS became an operating system until 1976 when ISIS II added support for disks....

Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was
shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the
MDS-800 in 1975.  A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is
listed among other Intel manuals at:

    http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm

> and the ISIS II manual has 1976 on Bitsavers has 1976 as the first  Copyright.....

Which doesn't tell us anything about ISIS (one).

> P.S. Often the search for "First" is fruitless,

Definitely.  I'm not necessarily looking for first, just early.

I found evidence of two operating systems for use on Intel's
development systems, sold by third parties along with their own floppy
disk systems, probably prior to Intel's MDS-DOS introduction.  MDOS by
Millenium Information Systems Inc. is mentioned in the April 1975
Microcomputer Digest, and DOS-80 by Applied Data Communications in the
May 1975 issue.  My vague recollection was that MDS-DOS was introduced
fairly late in 1975, but I don't have any definitive reference.

From spedraja at ono.com  Tue Sep 15 04:47:11 2015
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:47:11 +0200
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT5bcsQfBv_OWHj7D3nJ478S+HSrh=Ke4e7tzvoRDoJpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT5bcsQfBv_OWHj7D3nJ478S+HSrh=Ke4e7tzvoRDoJpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8Nrb_kFJsNL5Ou3Xqxk8ty01Bd-EO9zSmVK4--ty8mpw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm almost sure that he's thinking in one 5 1/4" of 1.2 mb capacity.

Kind Regards
Sergio Pedraja

2015-09-15 10:51 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:39 AM, Adrian Graham
> <binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> > sure.
>
> When IBM introduced the floppy disk in 1971, they were 8-inch, and
> that became industry standard, partially supplanted by 5 1/4" when
> Shugart introduced those in 1976, then 3.5" introduced by Sony and HP
> in 1982. There were a few other oddball sizes like 4", 3 1/4", 3", 2
> 1/2", and 2", but none of them were very successful. The market
> pressure was always to reduce the size of the medium, so I can't
> imagine why anyone would have made 12" floppy disks.
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 15 06:57:40 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 07:57:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
Message-ID: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave G4UGM

    > although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves

I don't think ENIAC used acoustic delay storage? Perhaps what you're thinking
of is that in the original ENIAC usage, there was no 'program' as we now
think of that term; the machine had to be configured (via connecting up
computing units with cables) for each separate problem, i.e. more
'configurable' than 'programmable' (at least in the Turing machine sense).
Hence the debate over whether it or the Baby was the first 'computer'.

	Noel

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 15 07:01:42 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 05:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150439090.25768@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Adrian Graham wrote:
> Morning folks,
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.
> Anyone?

First, how old is he?
If he is under 50, then he may be looking for the EARLY_PERCEPTION 12" 
floppy.  "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS! When my elementary 
school teacher brought one into class, it was bigger than my foot!"
What he is misremembering is an 8" disk.

If he is over 50, then he may be looking for the FADED_MEMORIES 12" 
floppy.  "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS!"
What he is misremembering is an 8" disk.

Or, he may be looking for the CREATIVE_MARKETING 12" floppy.
When TVs were round, the measurement was the diameter.  When they stopped 
being round, the measurement was the diagonal, or largest length.  More 
recently, they've started to round up.  And, now, I think that they are 
measuring the diagonal of the box that it is shipped in.  The diagonal of 
an 8" disk jacket is about 11", rounded up to 12"


Very large objects tend to be remembered as even larger.  I have a 
[damaged] 24" platter from a hard disk.  When mentioned later, most people 
remember it as being "three or four feet diameter!"


We have had numerous prior queries about the 12" floppies.  One tipoff is 
that sometimes the person asking will remember that floppies had TWO 
sizes, "five inch" and "twelve inch".  3.5" will either be called "three 
inch", or "hard disks"!  It is simply a misremembering of eight inch.

As Eric pointed out, floppies STARTED at 8", and went DOWN from there.


But, could we be wrong?
Of course.
But, I'm willing to bet $20 that nobody can send me a 12" floppy.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From supervinx at libero.it  Tue Sep 15 07:10:24 2015
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:10:24 +0200
Subject: R: Re: 12" Floppy Disks
Message-ID: <yd90d1j58y3f82llu6bj4aw8.1442319024452@email.android.com>

May be he's a fisherman :) They tend to oversize everything :D



-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> 
Data:15/09/2015  14:01  (GMT+01:00) 
A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Oggetto: Re: 12" Floppy Disks 

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Adrian Graham wrote:
> Morning folks,
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.
> Anyone?

First, how old is he?
If he is under 50, then he may be looking for the EARLY_PERCEPTION 12" 
floppy.? "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS! When my elementary 
school teacher brought one into class, it was bigger than my foot!"
What he is misremembering is an 8" disk.

If he is over 50, then he may be looking for the FADED_MEMORIES 12" 
floppy.? "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS!"
What he is misremembering is an 8" disk.

Or, he may be looking for the CREATIVE_MARKETING 12" floppy.
When TVs were round, the measurement was the diameter.? When they stopped 
being round, the measurement was the diagonal, or largest length.? More 
recently, they've started to round up.? And, now, I think that they are 
measuring the diagonal of the box that it is shipped in.? The diagonal of 
an 8" disk jacket is about 11", rounded up to 12"


Very large objects tend to be remembered as even larger.? I have a 
[damaged] 24" platter from a hard disk.? When mentioned later, most people 
remember it as being "three or four feet diameter!"


We have had numerous prior queries about the 12" floppies.? One tipoff is 
that sometimes the person asking will remember that floppies had TWO 
sizes, "five inch" and "twelve inch".? 3.5" will either be called "three 
inch", or "hard disks"!? It is simply a misremembering of eight inch.

As Eric pointed out, floppies STARTED at 8", and went DOWN from there.


But, could we be wrong?
Of course.
But, I'm willing to bet $20 that nobody can send me a 12" floppy.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred???? cisin at xenosoft.com

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 08:27:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:27:42 +0000
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.

First I've heard of them :-)

I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the front loading
ones used in things like the RK05 drive.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 08:29:56 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:29:56 +0000
Subject: M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure
In-Reply-To: <20150915080249.GA72184@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150914094005.GA96054@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55F6C2AE.6030204@charter.net> <20150914150937.GA15796@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141828.OAA06590@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4551@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150914190242.GC27534@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201509141920.PAA04210@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>,
 <20150915080249.GA72184@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D46A5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Got it, thx.
> 
> So this means the use of an "argument amplifier" or a "discussion wood"...
> (translated from german)

Yes :-)

Another common term is 'cluestick'. It's a type of LART (Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool).

When HP released the LogicDart, I jokingly suggested it should be a 
'Designer Attitude Readjustment Tool'.

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 15 08:34:19 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:34:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
Message-ID: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document
feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in
a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to
have.

The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which
Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online
- thanks Paul!), now available here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-DZV11-TM-001_Jun78.pdf

(as always, please download/distribute/replicate to other repositories).
I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf


I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all the
ones which aren't online. I will slowly be scanning these in, but if anyone
has a particular need for any of these, please let me know, and I'll move it
to the top of the queue. They are:

EK-881PC-UG-003	    881 Power Controller User Guide
EK-H9646-UG-002	    H9646-AH/AJ Cabinet System User Guide

DEC-11-H40SA-B-D    PDP-11/40, -11/35 (21 Inch Chassis) System Manual

EK-FP11C-OP-001	    FP11-C Floating Point Processor User's Manual

EK-1184A-TM-PR4	    11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary)
EK-1184E-TM-001	    PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual
EK-1184E-MG	    PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide

EK-DHU11-TM-001	    DHU11 Technical Manual

(although IIRC that last is in a glued binding, so it's not really amenable
to being auto-fed unless I rip it apart, which I am loathe to do). I also
have:

DEC-11-HR6B-D	    PDP-11 Conventions Manual

but that's in print format (i.e. large pages), and I'd have to hand-feed that
one through my A3 scanner.


The auto-feed scanner I have is an older Epson, which I got on eBay for not
very much. I'm using just the Twain driver from Epson; I'm doing my scanning
from IrfanView (a _very_ useful image tool, which if you don't have it,
download it, it's free) which spits out the CCITT4 TIFF's directly - and can
even number the output files backwards - incredibly useful when scanning
hunks of double-sided pages on a single-sided scanner!

If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did,
let me know, and I'll provide details.

	Noel

From guy at cuillin.org.uk  Tue Sep 15 08:56:36 2015
From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:56:36 +0100
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica.

On 15 September 2015 at 00:13, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want
> off-site
> replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
> tape.....
>
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> > Loken
> > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> >
> > The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
> >
> > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
> > library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
> cartridges
> > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on
> the
> > tape with astonishing speed.
> >
> > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days
> so I
> > now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS
> > box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box
> > at home.
> > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
> > cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
> >
> > --
> >    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> > father
> >    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to
> earn
> >    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
> 'daddy'"
> >    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston
>
>
>


-- 
4.4 > 5.4

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Sep 15 08:57:53 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 06:57:53 -0700
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F823E1.4030604@bitsavers.org>

On 9/15/15 4:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> the machine had to be configured (via connecting up
> computing units with cables)

In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839





From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Sep 15 09:00:06 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 07:00:06 -0700
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
In-Reply-To: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F82466.7070905@bitsavers.org>

On 9/15/15 6:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which
> Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online
> - thanks Paul!), now available here:
>

thanks! UL-ing them now.




From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 15 09:39:49 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:39:49 -0500
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01d0efc4$6061b930$21252b90$@classiccmp.org>

Along the lines of this thread... back a few years ago when it was mentioned on the list that the last company making 1/2 mag tape was ceasing production, I bought a couple cases (I think 24 tapes total). I'm about 3/4ths of the way through them.

Anyone know if new manufactured 1/2 mag tape can still be purchased these days and where? I don't want NOS that's been sitting on a shelf for 10 years....

J



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 09:48:45 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:48:45 -0400
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1EB12455-FB2A-409E-B31A-BAB2F2169FF4@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 4:39 AM, Adrian Graham <binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Morning folks,
> 
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.

The PLATO IV terminals (the hardwired Magnavox ones, not the later microprocessor based ones) had an optional "Audio player".  That used a floppy disk of about that size, storing analog audio snippets (in analog form, not digitized -- remember, this was around 1972).  Seek was done by a pneumatic D/A converter, essentially.  There were 128 tracks, each with 32 sectors.

Those disks had no sleeve -- you'd just slide the bare magnetic disk into the player mechanism.

	paul


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 15 09:52:26 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:52:26 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
In-Reply-To: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS447ECEC6BDC6637A698DA0865C0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:34 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document
feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan 
in
a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to
have.
I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all the
ones which aren't online. I will slowly be scanning these in, but if anyone
has a particular need for any of these, please let me know, and I'll move it
to the top of the queue. They are:

EK-1184A-TM-PR4     11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary)
EK-1184E-TM-001     PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual
EK-1184E-MG     PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide

If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did,
let me know, and I'll provide details.

Noel


======
Thanks Noel.
In my Oc? days I have scanned a lot, especially FMPS-s.
I know I probably have a few manuals that are not available for download,
but I would be very interested in the 11/84 docs, as far as not available.
My 11/84 boots till "04", but I cannot continue (entering a boot device
code on the console), because the console comm lines are defective.
Might be a PSU issue, have not (yet) investigated further ...

Thanks,
- Henk 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Sep 15 10:19:33 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:19:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509150819100.12863@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015, drlegendre . wrote:

> To the clown, to the CLOWN!!
>
> =P

Fixed that for ya.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Sep 15 10:54:45 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:54:45 -0600
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 7:27 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >
> > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> > sure.
>
> First I've heard of them :-)
>
> I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the
> front loading
> ones used in things like the RK05 drive.


I have the platters from one of these drives. One of the "youngsters"
brought
in platters from a 5 1/4" drive to show off his IT cred. Then one of the
older
youngsters brought in  a ~9" platter from some SMD drive. I brought in the
~14" platter from a very old DEC drive that crashed (RK04  sticks in my
head, but I might be wrong).

Perhaps this is what he's thinking about?

Warner

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 15 11:08:40 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:08:40 -0700
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <1EB12455-FB2A-409E-B31A-BAB2F2169FF4@comcast.net>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1EB12455-FB2A-409E-B31A-BAB2F2169FF4@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F84288.8000300@sydex.com>

In this day and age, nothing surprises me.

The question also hinges on the nationality and age of the questioner. 
A common 5.25" floppy is about 13 cm in size.  Perhaps the young teacher 
didn't have his units correct.

People often don't believe me when I tell them that the floppy disc 
actually hails back to the 1950s.  But it does and was not used for 
digital recording.

--Chuck


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 15 11:08:45 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 18:08:45 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
In-Reply-To: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150915133419.9AA4418C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS9915E4D4D96C0371361F9865C0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:34 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document
feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan 
in
a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to
have.

[... snip ...]

I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf

If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did,
let me know, and I'll provide details.

Noel

======

BTW, I have EK-KK11A-TM-001  "KK11-A cache memory technical manual".
It is a scan of a printed version from a microfiche ... I got the microfiche
and could print it on some microfiche to A4 sheet printer at community hall
archive.  After that, I scanned the printed copy, which was of mediocre
quality. The scanner was of the Oc? 3165, which does 600 dpi at 256 grey
tones. And that at 60 pages per minute ... I really miss that scanner !
The scan is 7.8 MB. If somebody wants it, I can email it. Distribution is
also a backup for me :-)
- Henk


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 11:17:46 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:17:46 +0000
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <1EB12455-FB2A-409E-B31A-BAB2F2169FF4@comcast.net>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <1EB12455-FB2A-409E-B31A-BAB2F2169FF4@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D46EF@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> The PLATO IV terminals (the hardwired Magnavox ones, not the later microprocessor based 
> ones) had an optional  "Audio player".  That used a floppy disk of about that size, storing
> analog audio snippets (in analog form, not digitized -- remember, this was around 1972). 
>  Seek was done by a pneumatic D/A converter, essentially.  There were 128 tracks, each 
> with 32 sectors.
> 
> Those disks had no sleeve -- you'd just slide the bare magnetic disk into the player mechanism.

I have an office dictating machine here, I think it is badged 'Olympia' which used magnetic disks. It
appears that the disk had a spiral groove cut in it, like a gramophone record, the magnetic head ran
along this [1] and could be lifted and repositioned (like the tone arm of a gramophone) to skip long
distances forwards or backwards.

[1] I have heard of a similar machine with a sprial 'cam' as part of the machine to guide the head, this
does not have that or any evidence of it. The magnetic head does the guiding.

I do not have any disks for it, but from the user guide (which I do not know what happeend to) the normal
disk was 'rigid' (I assume hard plastic), there was also a flexible version for sending by mail. From the size
of the slot and turntable, I think the disk is about 7" diameter,

I think with this machine you just inserted the 'naked floppy'. No sleeve.

I don't know the exact date, but from the technology used (a pair of B9A based valves and 
contact-cooled metel rectifiers) I would guess early-mid 1960s.

-tony


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 11:30:09 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:30:09 +0100
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <03a501d0efd3$ca1fe450$5e5facf0$@gmail.com>

It was converted to being "programmable" in 1948.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 12:58 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
> Intel ISIS
> 
>     > From: Dave G4UGM
> 
>     > although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves
> 
> I don't think ENIAC used acoustic delay storage? Perhaps what you're
> thinking of is that in the original ENIAC usage, there was no 'program' as
we
> now think of that term; the machine had to be configured (via connecting
up
> computing units with cables) for each separate problem, i.e. more
> 'configurable' than 'programmable' (at least in the Turing machine sense).
> Hence the debate over whether it or the Baby was the first 'computer'.
> 
> 	Noel


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 11:28:32 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:28:32 +0000
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > I wonder if he's thinking of the 14" hard disk cartridges, perhaps the
> > front loading
> > ones used in things like the RK05 drive.
> 
> 
> I have the platters from one of these drives. One of the "youngsters"

A fair number of list members have such drives, still operational. If I crane
my neck in just the right way I can see about a dozen of them of various types
waiting for me to set up my 'Large Machine Room'.

> brought
> in platters from a 5 1/4" drive to show off his IT cred. Then one of the
> older
> youngsters brought in  a ~9" platter from some SMD drive. I brought in the
> ~14" platter from a very old DEC drive that crashed (RK04  sticks in my
> head, but I might be wrong).

AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30
drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known
was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is
'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). The RK04, had it existed, would have been
the low density version of the DEC drive, but I can find no reference to it anywhere.

The RK02 to RK05 took a front-loading disk cartridge containing a single 14" disk. It was
intended to be interchanged by the user, like a floppy disk [1]. There were many other
models of 14" drives, some were designed for the user to interchange the disks (some 
front loading, some top loading) others were more like a modern hard disk and were
sealed winchester-type units.

[1] For the pedants, I do know what an RK05F is....

On drives where the user was expected to interchange the disks, a headcrash was not 
uncommon (due to contamination from dust when the drive is open, especially if 
the absolute air filter wasn't changed regularly). This was nearly always fatal to the disk,
often it wrecked the heads too (but not always, there are plenty of stories of RK05s 
(particularly) where there was a headcrash but the heads cleaned up fine) but it was
not normal to replace the drive when this happened. Not being a sealed unit, you could
replace the heads and other parts in the field, you did not need a cleanroom. 

-tony



Perhaps this is what he's thinking about?

Warner

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 11:35:29 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:35:29 +0100
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04b501d0efd4$88bf7ba0$9a3e72e0$@gmail.com>

You can't access the replica directly. Even if you could the replicas use incremental revisions, so you can go back to previous versions....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Dawson
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 2:57 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> 
> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica.
> 
> On 15 September 2015 at 00:13, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want
> > off-site replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no
> > need for tape.....
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > > Richard Loken
> > > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> > >
> > > The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
> > >
> > > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500
> > > tape library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are
> > > LTO-5
> > cartridges
> > > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be
> > > written on
> > the
> > > tape with astonishing speed.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> > > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these
> > > days
> > so I
> > > now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy
> > > OpenVMS box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy
> > > FreeBSD box at home.
> > > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three
> > > unopened cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
> > >
> > > --
> > >    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be
> > > a father
> > >    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to
> > earn
> > >    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
> > 'daddy'"
> > >    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 4.4 > 5.4


From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Sep 15 11:37:45 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:37:45 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509142124520.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151036390.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 ethan at 757.org wrote:

> 30Tbyte compressed*
> (100Gbyte uncompressed)

Well in this case they claim 15Tbyte uncompressed but 100Gbyte uncompressed
is still a lot more than a DLT-IV will hold.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 11:47:01 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:47:01 +0100
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55F823E1.4030604@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F823E1.4030604@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <05c801d0efd6$2513f890$6f3be9b0$@gmail.com>

All I get from that is an Abstract and and invitation to pay lots of money.
The University I work for is not on the ACM list. Anyone have an original
paper copy they could send be?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 2:58 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
> Intel ISIS
> 
> On 9/15/15 4:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units
> > with cables)
> 
> In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer.
> 
> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839
> 
> 
> 



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 12:03:34 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:03:34 -0400
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ...
> AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30
> drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known
> was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is
> 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk). 

There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.

If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side).  I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only.  If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do...

	paul



From go at aerodesic.com  Tue Sep 15 12:11:00 2015
From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:11:00 -0700
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F3077D.1020905@ao-cs.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com> <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>
 <55F3077D.1020905@ao-cs.com>
Message-ID: <55F85124.2000803@aerodesic.com>

I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, but I noticed 
this morning that the site "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from 
my comcast (oregon) location.  It's still broken elsewhere because few 
of the sites I visited that should be on the ring have working webring 
links, so the javascript inclusion must not yet be universally accessable...

-Gary

On 09/11/2015 09:55 AM, Gary Oliver wrote:
> Works fine, save for the individual web-ring pages not being able to 
> populate the buttons correctly. Going directly to a members... page 
> does work from this proxy.


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 12:11:14 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:11:14 +0200
Subject: ZX Spectrum disk interfaces
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFcEFp5cpRMLa5zDP3Q3oNpVKwPe0hswd6MjorZmM+D3g@mail.gmail.com>

A question born only of idle curiosity.

In thge 1980s, I bought an MGT +D disk interface for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2BD

In the end, I traded mine in for its upmarket cousin, the DISCiPLE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISCiPLE

(I link to WP as I originally wrote those articles, IIRC. :-) )

I have noticed that multiple people have now cloned the +D:

http://sintech-shop.co.uk/sinclair/-d-disk-interface-clone/a-6196/

http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/spectrum/spectrum_storage.html#plusd

But this post, from FB, claims that the Beta Disk interface can handle
high-density drives, giving 1.5MB per disk:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/speccy4ever/permalink/1237322356346334/

Given that HD floppies and drives are far more readily-available than
DD these days, how come most 8-bit interfaces can only handle DD? Is
it purely a data rate issue?


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 15 12:12:37 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Guy Dawson wrote:
> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica.

Yeah.

Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up, and 
should be a drive, NOT a connected computer.

Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on 
the web while doing some research.  It's a trojan, not a virus.  It runs 
in the background encrypting files.  Then it pops up a message demanding 
500 euros for the key!

I had a 2 TB backup drive connected to my living room computer.
It got 8000 files on the computer, then got 1000 files on the backup drive 
before I found out and stopped it last night.  Fortunately, 990 of 
those are ones that I also have on another machine (the files that I 
copied from my dead friend's laptop), and hadn't finished that directory 
to move on to the stuff that might be really hard to recreate.
The backup drive is no longer connected to the computer.

So, I have a lot of files to recreate.
and no sleep last night.


I will donate 500 euros to the legal defense fund of anybody who kills the 
author of CRYPTOWALL.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 12:11:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:11:42 +0000
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4732@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.

 I thought the RK(0)8 was the controller for a PDP8 system. I have an RK8E in my PDP8/E, it links to
a normal RK05 drive.

It does indeed use 16 (hard) sector packs, unlike the 12 sector ones used in the same RK05 drives 
linked to an RK11 controller (RK11C, RK11D, RKV11D) on a PDP11.

The HP7900 drive uses the same type of cartridge but 24 sector.

-tony

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 12:19:54 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:19:54 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <156C462C-B2FA-43E8-8338-3EF928C1DFD5@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:12 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Guy Dawson wrote:
>> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up, and should be a drive, NOT a connected computer.
> 
> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?   ...

It depends on the purpose of the backup.  There are two major possibilities (1) to recover from operator error (2) to recover from destruction of the system.  The malware you're describing is really a variant of (2).  

For (1), on-system backups, or snapshots, or stuff like that are fine.  The concern is a file that was accidentally deleted or clobbered, and another copy of that file on the same machine, or connected nearby, will serve.

For (2) you need a backup that is isolated from whatever event clobbered your system.  That event might be fire, earthquake, or malware.  For all of those, distance and possibly isolation are what you need.

If you care about fast recovery from both classes of issue, you will want to consider two backups, one for each kind of problem.  The one for (1) can typically run much more frequently than the one for (2).

	paul


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 12:20:45 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:20:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509151319520.5675@z87>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the 
> web while doing some research.  It's a trojan, not a virus.  It runs in the 
> background encrypting files.  Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros 
> for the key!

Out of curiousity, were you running any sort of protective software (e.g. 
Symantec, Kaspersky, etc.)?


-- 

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 12:21:03 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:21:03 -0400
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4732@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4732@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <F1CAFACD-9719-48BC-9542-209BD0951B2E@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:11 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.
> 
> I thought the RK(0)8 was the controller for a PDP8 system. I have an RK8E in my PDP8/E, it links to
> a normal RK05 drive.
> 
> It does indeed use 16 (hard) sector packs, unlike the 12 sector ones used in the same RK05 drives 
> linked to an RK11 controller (RK11C, RK11D, RKV11D) on a PDP11.

Yes, that sounds right.  The terminology gets a bit confusing.  I thought the drives were actually different because of the sector count, but it sounds like that's handled in the controller and the drive doesn't care.

	paul



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 12:23:34 2015
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:23:34 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6850BCAEC10C442EA0E4EFD0D85D2EE3@TeoPC>

Sometimes I think management just wants to offload the important work to 
some other entity so they can move the blame once things go south (and they 
eventually will). So much in the news about companies getting hacked and all 
the information stolen makes me wonder why your competition just cant have 
you hacked and your files tampered with. By the time you figure out 
something is fishy your off site mirror data might be screwed as well. The 
cloud is a hackers dream, why spend the time to hack individual companies 
when you can hack a data center and get 1000's of them at once.

I like tape for archives and collect all kinds of formats for fun. Most of 
what I use personally is LTO 1/2 since its so cheap and 100/200GB per tape 
is still useful. For old machines you just mess around with DLT/DDS/AIT work 
just fine. I have QIC tapes from the early 90's that are still readable if 
needed.


-----Original Message----- 
From: Dave G4UGM
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 7:13 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Is tape dead?

I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off-site
replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
tape.....

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> Loken
> Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
>
> The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
>
> My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500 tape
> library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are LTO-5
cartridges
> that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written on
the
> tape with astonishing speed.
>
> On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these days
so I
> now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy OpenVMS
> box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy FreeBSD box
> at home.
> As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three unopened
> cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
>
> --
>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> father
>    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
'daddy'"
>    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From ethan at 757.org  Tue Sep 15 12:35:16 2015
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:35:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151036390.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151036390.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151334120.32673@users.757.org>

> Well in this case they claim 15Tbyte uncompressed but 100Gbyte uncompressed
> is still a lot more than a DLT-IV will hold.

15GByte uncompressed and 100Gbyte compressed?

Tape companies always misrepresent their products.

Compressed doesn't count.



From ethan at 757.org  Tue Sep 15 12:38:24 2015
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:38:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>

> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on the 
> web while doing some research.  It's a trojan, not a virus.  It runs in the 
> background encrypting files.  Then it pops up a message demanding 500 euros 
> for the key!

Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get their 
data back.

At home I use an older Supermicro 15 bay 3u server as a NAS. I bought 
every disk in a pair, and usually don't buy it in advance. Even though it 
has a 24 port 3ware card, only the OS disk is mirrored, all the others are 
exported JBOD (single disk, no RAID)

Then I manually run an rsync script here and there to copy the data from 
disk set A to B.

Disk set A is the only one exported via NFS/SMB, so the only one the 
Windows and Mac systems can get to.

Originally I was meaning to script it so the B disks would be spun down, 
but haven't gotten around to that yet.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 15 12:40:03 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509151319520.5675@z87>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509151319520.5675@z87>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151037570.26786@shell.lmi.net>

>> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on 
>> the web while doing some research.  It's a trojan, not a virus.  It runs in 
>> the background encrypting files.  Then it pops up a message demanding 500 
>> euros for the key!

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> Out of curiousity, were you running any sort of protective software (e.g. 
> Symantec, Kaspersky, etc.)?

AVG and McAfee.   not necessarily the best stuff.
Scan, while the malware was screwing stuff up in the background, did not 
find anything to complain about!



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Sep 15 12:41:42 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201509151741.NAA04056@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Delete it on the master and have it faithfully deleted on the replica.
> Backup should NOT be connected to the computer that it is backing up,
> and should be a drive, NOT a connected computer.

Depends on why you have backups - that is, what kind of trouble the
backups are intended to defend against.

I've identified three basic reasons to keep backups:

(1) "Oops."  This includes things like running rm in the wrong
directory by mistake.

(2) "History."  This is things like "okay, this was working last May,
what was in the config file then?" and "when was it we installed
that?".

(3) "Oh no."  This includes things like disk drives dying.

If anyone has a fourth reason to suggest, I'd be interested.  (Note
that getting cracked is basically a cross of (1) and (2) - and, indeed,
(1) can be viewed as a very-short-term form of (2).)

The thing is, for (3) you _want_ live replication, because you want
your replica to be as up-to-date as possible when a drive fails - but
for (1) and (2) live replication goes against the whole point (though
depending on how it's done it can be tool in the service of such
backups; historical backups can be done by freezing live replication
and saving offline copies of the replicas).

Thus, the answer to "are live replicas good backups?" is actually a
definite "maybe, depending on your threat model".

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Sep 15 12:49:56 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:49:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at
>> PDFs on the web while doing some research.  [...]

I trust you've now switched PDF viewers to one that doesn't
gratuitously execute (attempts at) live content?

> Sounds like Cryptolocker.  Even the police paid the ransom to get
> their data back.

If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
whoever decided they didn't need proper backups.  (And whoever was
responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with,
either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools
that would let it run, depending.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 15 12:52:20 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:52:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151044120.26786@shell.lmi.net>

>> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at PDFs on 
>> the web while doing some research.  It's a trojan, not a virus.  It runs in 
>> the background encrypting files.  Then it pops up a message demanding 500 
>> euros for the key!

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote:
> Sounds like Cryptolocker. Even the police paid the ransom to get their data 
> back.

Detection while running is no big deal.
But, after the damage is done, recovery is extremely difficult.
Not worth asking John Gilmore for help building Deep Crack.
Would anybody really trust the miscreants to provide the key after the 
ransom is paid?



From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue Sep 15 12:55:46 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:55:46 +0000
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151741.NAA04056@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <201509151741.NAA04056@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <FDE19FF2-899C-4FF9-9A45-321351C4273D@swri.edu>

On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote:

> (3) "Oh no."  This includes things like disk drives dying.

	(3a) ?<sniff> does that smell like smoke to you?? - > offsite backups...


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 15 12:58:01 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151055100.26786@shell.lmi.net>

>>> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at
>>> PDFs on the web while doing some research.  [...]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Mouse wrote:
> I trust you've now switched PDF viewers to one that doesn't
> gratuitously execute (attempts at) live content?

Google Chrome and Internet Explorer.  I'm more inclined to suspect the 
latter, but I obviously did not have them configured the way that I 
thought that I did.

>> Sounds like Cryptolocker.  Even the police paid the ransom to get
>> their data back.
> If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
> whoever decided they didn't need proper backups.  (And whoever was
> responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with,
> either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools
> that would let it run, depending.)

Far too many guvmint agencies have far too much stuff "easily accessible" 
that shouldn't be.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 13:03:28 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:03:28 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <164172A2-D158-464E-BD4B-19F95C983732@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote:
> ...
> If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
> whoever decided they didn't need proper backups. 

But the nice thing about not having proper backups is that you can pretend "the drive failed" if someone requires you to disclose embarassing data.

	paul



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 13:06:53 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:06:53 +0200
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151037570.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509151319520.5675@z87>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151037570.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGPyy8VPqyHNGwNYy9OQdXTaxS5r-ffcwxTMnp7uqS-8w@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 September 2015 at 19:40, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> AVG and McAfee.   not necessarily the best stuff.
> Scan, while the malware was screwing stuff up in the background, did not
> find anything to complain about!


Until a few weeks ago I worked for AVG.

*Don't* run 2 resident shield apps at once. They conflict.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Sep 15 13:19:34 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:19:34 +0200
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F86136.5050106@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30
>> drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known
>> was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is
>> 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk).
>
> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.
>
> If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side).  I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only.  If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do...

Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here.
The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a 
disk with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 
sectors. And, of course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per 
sector, while on the PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words.
So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track.

So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive 
is identical.

As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the 
last two with that designation.

	Johnny


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 13:24:23 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:24:23 +0100
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <6850BCAEC10C442EA0E4EFD0D85D2EE3@TeoPC>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <6850BCAEC10C442EA0E4EFD0D85D2EE3@TeoPC>
Message-ID: <00bc01d0efe3$bf9e1f50$3eda5df0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ
> Sent: 15 September 2015 18:24
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> 
> Sometimes I think management just wants to offload the important work to
> some other entity so they can move the blame once things go south (and
> they eventually will).

I think there are other pressures, but I am sure there is an element of
this. The other one is that they are under pressure to save money and often
there can be short term "savings"..
.. and once there is no internal system to compare with then senior
management can't dispute the costs

>  So much in the news about companies getting hacked
> and all the information stolen makes me wonder why your competition just
> cant have you hacked and your files tampered with. By the time you figure
> out something is fishy your off site mirror data might be screwed as well.


That's why you need to be able to go back generations as well. I also see
that the rise in "ransom ware" in a corperate environment..

> The
> cloud is a hackers dream, why spend the time to hack individual companies
> when you can hack a data center and get 1000's of them at once.
> 

Because if it is done properly it looks like lots of individual companies
and hacking them all can be a problem. 
I also believe that cloud companies are less likely to take short cuts with
security....

> I like tape for archives and collect all kinds of formats for fun. Most of
what I
> use personally is LTO 1/2 since its so cheap and 100/200GB per tape is
still
> useful. For old machines you just mess around with DLT/DDS/AIT work just
> fine. I have QIC tapes from the early 90's that are still readable if
needed.
> 

I have a selection of tapes but DLT2 is my biggest...

Dave

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave G4UGM
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 7:13 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: Is tape dead?
> 
> I spoke to my former employer and they are ditching tape. They want off-
> site replication and if they have an off-site replica they see no need for
> tape.....
> 
> Dave
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > Richard Loken
> > Sent: 14 September 2015 23:56
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Re: Is tape dead?
> >
> > The death of tape is greatly exagerated.
> >
> > My duties today included removing 50 tapes from our Storagetek 500
> > tape library and sending them offsite for safe storage.  These are
> > LTO-5
> cartridges
> > that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be written
> > on
> the
> > tape with astonishing speed.
> >
> > On the other hand, my employer is bored with 40Gbyte DLT cartriges
> > because 40Gbyte is little more than a SSSD 5-1/4" floppy disk these
> > days
> so I
> > now can have them for free.  I have a DLT4000 backing up my toy
> > OpenVMS box here at the office and another DLT4000 backing up my toy
> > FreeBSD box at home.
> > As for cartidges, I am overwelmed with media - including three
> > unopened cartons of NIB DLT-IV cartridges.
> >
> > --
> >    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> > father
> >    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to
earn
> >    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of
> 'daddy'"
> >    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Sep 15 13:25:31 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:25:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <FDE19FF2-899C-4FF9-9A45-321351C4273D@swri.edu>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <201509151741.NAA04056@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <FDE19FF2-899C-4FF9-9A45-321351C4273D@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <201509151825.OAA26847@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (3) "Oh no."  This includes things like disk drives dying.
> (3a) ?<sniff> does that smell like smoke to you?? - > offsite
> backups...

Yes.  Offsite backups are an important piece for many threat models.
But that's mostly orthogonal to whether they're designed to defend
against my (1), (2), or (3); any of them can be done offsite.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 15 13:25:38 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:25:38 -0400
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <55F86136.5050106@update.uu.se>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
 <55F86136.5050106@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <B38FF113-11F7-473D-A5B0-3194096B7347@comcast.net>


> On Sep 15, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
> On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30
>>> drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known
>>> was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is
>>> 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk).
>> 
>> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.
>> 
>> If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side).  I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only.  If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do...
> 
> Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here.
> The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a disk with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 sectors. And, of course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per sector, while on the PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words.
> So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track.
> 
> So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive is identical.
> 
> As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the last two with that designation.

Yes, my mistake.  I was thinking of the RK05 class drive as used on a PDP-11, which apparently is "an RK05 drive and RK8 controller".

	paul



From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 13:27:14 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:27:14 -0600
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQAvA-vRftBZr_B3J31jBrA9oMumJ06a5dPmw68zCmnBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!!

There is no cloud, just other people's computers.

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Sep 15 13:30:35 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:30:35 +0200
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <B38FF113-11F7-473D-A5B0-3194096B7347@comcast.net>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4697@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CANCZdfptj2fB7cnpujhm1ZFfYxX4KH1WamcUFyM7-djip34DFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4706@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5210430C-9562-4996-86B4-FC6BA1142757@comcast.net>
 <55F86136.5050106@update.uu.se>
 <B38FF113-11F7-473D-A5B0-3194096B7347@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F863CB.8010409@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-15 20:25, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-09-15 19:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 12:28 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> AFAIK the RK04 never existed. The RK02 and RK03 were re-badged Diablo Model 30
>>>> drives, the 02 being low density and the 03 high density. The RK05, very well known
>>>> was a DEC drive of the same capacity, physical track format, etc as the RK03 (that is
>>>> 'high density, about 2.5 MBytes on a disk).
>>>
>>> There was also an RK08, as I recall -- same platter as the RK11/RK05 but 16 sectors per track instead of 12.
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly, that same 16-sector platter was used in the IBM 360 model 44 which had an RK05 lookalike built into the CPU cabinet (on the side).  I never used it; not sure if OS/360 supported it, that might have been PS/44 only.  If yes, one wonders if it was fixed size sectors, a rather un-OS-like thing to do...
>>
>> Actually, the disk pack don't change the designation here.
>> The RK05 was used both on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. On a PDP-8 you use a disk with 16 sectors, while on the PDP-11 you use a disk with 12 sectors. And, of course, on the PDP-8 you have 256 12-bit words per sector, while on the PDP-11 you have 256 16-bit words.
>> So it ends up being the same number of data bits per track.
>>
>> So the disk packs themselves had different designations. But the drive is identical.
>>
>> As far as I know, there never was a RK08. The RK06 and RK07 were the last two with that designation.
>
> Yes, my mistake.  I was thinking of the RK05 class drive as used on a PDP-11, which apparently is "an RK05 drive and RK8 controller".

Yeah. Except I bet you meant "RK05 with an RK11 controller" above. Or 
else "as used on a PDP-8". :-)

I like RK05. It's very reliable. And plenty for a PDP-8... Heck, OS/8 
have to treat it as two disks, since it is so huge. :-)

	Johnny


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 13:35:17 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:35:17 -0600
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQrqhPwS0NLZzCd9cMRtF+2BCvk53-N-3Wwmjf=024CyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Richard Loken
<richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca> wrote:
> These are LTO-5
> cartridges that can hold up to 30 Tbyte of compressed data and it can be
> written on the tape with astonishing speed.

That's one heck of a compression ratio, given that the native
(uncompressed) capacity of an LTO-5 cartridge is 1.5 TB.  Usually the
vendors claim 2.5:1 compression, but obviously the actual compression
achieved is entirely dependent on the entropy of the data.  I'd be
really surprised if the tape drive can stream at a high enough rate to
store 30 Tbyte; the native (uncompressed) streaming rate is 140 MB/s,
so for 20:1 compression it would have to transfer 2800 MB/s, which is
22 Gbit/s, more than even SAS or Fiber Channel can handle. With LTO
and similar tape drives, if you can't maintain streaming, the
performance goes to near zero, and you beat the heck out of the tape.

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 15 13:36:57 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:36:57 -0700
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>

On 09/15/2015 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote:

> If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
> whoever decided they didn't need proper backups.  (And whoever was
> responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with,
> either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools
> that would let it run, depending.)

I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS to 
you keep around?"  If you're just overwriting last month's backup, you 
could be propagating the effects of a malware or just plain error with 
no means of retrieval.

My backups are currently done by connecting an external drive to a 
system, and booting with a live CD. Important stuff is also duplicated 
on several different machines--and when new technology obsoletes the 
old, carry the content forward on the newer medium.

I back up my original work or valuable reference sources.  No pictures 
or movies.  When you consider how much *original* work anyone does 
during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little.

Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged 
lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer 
back in the 1980s.
---------------
Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing stupid-low 
prices on SSD using MLC flash.  How reliable are these things?  I'm 
still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now.

--Chuck




From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Sep 15 13:43:10 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:43:10 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQrqhPwS0NLZzCd9cMRtF+2BCvk53-N-3Wwmjf=024CyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151240040.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote:

> That's one heck of a compression ratio, given that the native
> (uncompressed) capacity of an LTO-5 cartridge is 1.5 TB.  Usually the
> vendors claim 2.5:1 compression, but obviously the actual compression

Of course it is 1.5Tbyte native and 3.0Tbyte compressed!!!

Oh fuddle duddle1 I am going to have to send my brain back to the factory
for refurbishing!  How can I repeatedly drop a decimal place and never
notice?

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Sep 15 13:49:42 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:49:42 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged
> lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer
> back in the 1980s.

I remeber that statistic from my youth, too.  What kind of code?  Fortran?
APL?  Cobol?  Assember?  C?

Okay, here are eleven lines of C code:

	#include <stdio.h>

	main()
	{
		int i;

		for(i = 0; i < 5; i++)
		{
			fprintf(stderr, "%d. Hello world\n", i);
		}
	}

That is hardly the language for this kind of statistic.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Sep 15 14:00:47 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:00:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <201509151900.PAA13746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11
>> debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a
>> GSA programmer back in the 1980s.
> I remeber that statistic from my youth, too.  What kind of code?
> Fortran?  APL?  Cobol?  Assember?  C?

I think the language is less important than what the code is doing.

I can scribble out hundreds of lines a day when it's boilerplate or
just a mechanical transcription of a well-burnt-in algorithm, but can
easily drop down to the single-digit range when I'm struggling with a
difficult problem.  Nor do I have any reason to think I'm unusual in
any respect here.

Indeed, what is my lines-per-day figure when I spend all day struggling
with a bug and end up fixing it by replacing four lines by two?  Minus
two lines per day?

Note that the preceding paragraphs are entirely independent of what
language I am (putatively) writing in.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 14:02:52 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:02:52 -0500
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F86B5C.4060901@gmail.com>

On 09/15/2015 03:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
> Morning folks,
>
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
> 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
> one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
> contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
> sure.

Ask him if he remembers whether the disk had a jacket or not, that might 
help narrow it down. Was it read-write or read-only? Was it definitely 
digital data or perhaps something analog-but-with-a-computer-application?





From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 15 14:05:51 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:05:51 -0700
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <55F86C0F.3000507@sydex.com>

On 09/15/2015 11:49 AM, Richard Loken wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11
>> debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a
>> GSA programmer back in the 1980s.
>
> I remeber that statistic from my youth, too.  What kind of code?
> Fortran? APL?  Cobol?  Assember?  C?

Most likely COBOL.  The GSA types were doing a lot of it back when I 
remember the number.  Probably punched into cards.

Could also have been RPG, or less likely FORTRAN.  Back when I heard the 
statistic, I don't think that federal types had used C.  Maybe JOVIAL or 
Autocoder...

--Chuck

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Sep 15 14:19:27 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:19:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS
> to you keep around?"

For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes.  There's
something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent
seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve
months, and the oldest backup in any year.  I'm considering something
of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host,
with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives
on a scheme somewhat like the above.

> I back up my original work or valuable reference sources.  No
> pictures or movies.  When you consider how much *original* work
> anyone does during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little.

Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a
few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably
produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now.  And
people into video production....

> Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing stupid-low
> prices on SSD using MLC flash.  How reliable are these things?  I'm
> still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now.

So am I.  I don't trust multi-level for anything more than passing a thumb
drive to a friend or the like (where failure carries a very low cost)
and I mostly don't trust wear-leveling algorithms yet, so I have little
use for flash, certainly not for backups.

Besides, even stupid-low SSD prices are still, in my admittedly limited
experience, well above spinning-rust prices.  The advantages of flash
(random access and physical ruggedness) aren't very important for most
backup applications, so price (and burnt-in technology, to some extent)
win out for my purposes.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From rob at krten.com  Tue Sep 15 11:00:54 2015
From: rob at krten.com (Rob Krten)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:00:54 -0400
Subject: FS: PDP-11/55
In-Reply-To: <20150823230343.GA19903@krten.com>
References: <20150823230343.GA19903@krten.com>
Message-ID: <20150915160054.GA18506@krten.com>


Reminder:  final day of bidding is today!

	www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html

Don't miss this opportunity to own a piece of history!

Cheers,
-RK

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 07:03:43PM -0400, Rob Krten wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada).  Bids open
> until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped
> and ready to go.
> 
> Please visit:
> 
> 	www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html
> 
> For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info.  Sealed bids via
> eamil please.  Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be
> ready to ship same day.  Must be shipped / picked up no later than
> 2015 10 09.
> 
> Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received.
> Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels.
> 
> Cheers,
> -RK
> 
> -- 
> Robert Krten
> 
> Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com
> 

-- 
Robert Krten

Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com


From rob at krten.com  Tue Sep 15 11:00:54 2015
From: rob at krten.com (Rob Krten)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:00:54 -0400
Subject: FS: PDP-11/55
In-Reply-To: <20150823230343.GA19903@krten.com>
References: <20150823230343.GA19903@krten.com>
Message-ID: <20150915160054.GA18506@krten.com>


Reminder:  final day of bidding is today!

	www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html

Don't miss this opportunity to own a piece of history!

Cheers,
-RK

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 07:03:43PM -0400, Rob Krten wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada).  Bids open
> until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped
> and ready to go.
> 
> Please visit:
> 
> 	www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html
> 
> For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info.  Sealed bids via
> eamil please.  Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be
> ready to ship same day.  Must be shipped / picked up no later than
> 2015 10 09.
> 
> Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received.
> Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels.
> 
> Cheers,
> -RK
> 
> -- 
> Robert Krten
> 
> Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com
> 

-- 
Robert Krten

Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com


From ethan at 757.org  Tue Sep 15 14:32:27 2015
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>

> Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
> certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a
> few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably
> produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now.  And
> people into video production....


I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events and 
I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around 5GB per 
hour (H264 1080i)

A few years ago I bought a BD-R drive from Samsung, and recorded 3 copies 
each of all the video from a few events that I wanted to put on the shelf. 
I verified the media was the metal stuff not the dye stuff (one is HTL, 
other is LTH, can't remember which is which.) 6 months later all of the 
BD-R discs were unreadable. I blamed the drive, RMA'ed with Samsung and 
confirmed with a friend on his Pioneer -- nope, the media somehow lost all 
the data. Memorex branded, was what you could find commercially local. The 
thing is a lot of it is rebadged Ritek and other vendors. Data lost. Not 
thrilled, and not sure I can trust that format after that issue. I did buy 
some Verbatim BD-R media but haven't used it yet. Pretty much keep 
everything on power consuming heat producing spinning disk.

I've heard some horror stories with tape as well.

When I worked at NASA the powderhorns we had originally had some tape 
drive that was like $100,000 each but really I guess was made from SVHS 
VCRs. STK literally had two drives on site all the time as the ones that 
were swapped in that week when two would fail. I think they converted it 
over to an IBM tape, can't remember what the SVHS based thing was but it 
was single reel spooled out into the deck, probably 9840 or something.

I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about!



--
Ethan O'Toole


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 15 15:00:17 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:00:17 -0600
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151244530.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <55F878D1.70604@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/15/2015 12:49 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11 debugged
>> lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a GSA programmer
>> back in the 1980s.
>
> I remeber that statistic from my youth, too.  What kind of code?  Fortran?
> APL?  Cobol?  Assember?  C?
>
> Okay, here are eleven lines of C code:
>
> 	#include <stdio.h>
>
> 	main()
> 	{
> 		int i;
>
> 		for(i = 0; i < 5; i++)
> 		{
> 			fprintf(stderr, "%d. Hello world\n", i);
> 		}
> 	}
>
> That is hardly the language for this kind of statistic.
>

I have just finished a 8 bit CPU in a FPGA...
Can you port those few lines of code for me?
Will get back to you tomorrow.
Ben.
PS:  No pushes or pops from the stack, just indexing off S
would make this tricky.  2 byte ints.
foo(a,b,c)  -> SUB S #8  params+return
             -> ST  A S...
	    -> JSR   #foo





From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Tue Sep 15 15:02:11 2015
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:02:11 +0100
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQAvA-vRftBZr_B3J31jBrA9oMumJ06a5dPmw68zCmnBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQAvA-vRftBZr_B3J31jBrA9oMumJ06a5dPmw68zCmnBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F87943.9090901@philpem.me.uk>

On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!!
> 
> There is no cloud, just other people's computers.

"Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and
let the rest of the world mirror it..."


-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From kula at tproa.net  Tue Sep 15 15:07:39 2015
From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:07:39 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <20150915200738.GN17486@keymaster.tproa.net>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:32:27PM -0400, ethan at 757.org wrote:
> 
> I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about!
> 

It's not simply enough to cut multiple tapes (backups) of anything you
care about --- you must periodically *read* and *verify* those tapes
(backups), so that you can re-copy from a known good other copy if it is
damaged.

-- 
Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 15 15:13:18 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:13:18 -0600
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F87943.9090901@philpem.me.uk>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQAvA-vRftBZr_B3J31jBrA9oMumJ06a5dPmw68zCmnBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F87943.9090901@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <55F87BDE.7060202@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/15/2015 2:02 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!!
>>
>> There is no cloud, just other people's computers.
>
> "Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and
> let the rest of the world mirror it..."
>

I wish more things could be mirrored. Look at the loss of
knowledge when the FREE web providers dropped Service.
Ben.



From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Sep 15 15:17:33 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:17:33 -0600
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150915200738.GN17486@keymaster.tproa.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <20150915200738.GN17486@keymaster.tproa.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoajjP=n_iiPW+vtfN9SmYdd=4cjoubwXLidGvwiVYbqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Thomas Kula <kula at tproa.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:32:27PM -0400, ethan at 757.org wrote:
> >
> > I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about!
> >
>
> It's not simply enough to cut multiple tapes (backups) of anything you
> care about --- you must periodically *read* and *verify* those tapes
> (backups), so that you can re-copy from a known good other copy if it is
> damaged.
>

Same goes for disks that you park backups of other systems on. I've
had several develop wonky spots that have put some of my older
backups in danger. thankfully nothing critical, but I now have
multiple disks with backups in different physical locations that
I test on a regular basis...

Warner

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 15 15:02:03 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:02:03 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>

On 09/15/2015 12:32 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote:
>> Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
>> certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but
>> only a few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who
>> have probably produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures
>> each by now.  And people into video production....
>
>
> I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events
> and I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around
> 5GB per hour (H264 1080i)

I tend to think of pictures and movies as sui generis--they were 
perfectly well done in non-digital form, so I don't include them as 
"data" needing backup, but rather a special case of digital data 
masquerading as a simulacrum of analog information.

Anyone remember the IBM "Photostore"  setup at Lawrence Livermore? 
Enterprising programmers wrote tools to go through their files and 
"touch" them, lest they be "Photostored".  In many cases, that meant 
"gone forever".
--------------
In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable?  I've seen 
dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from Seagate, 
but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.

Up until now, I've confined my purchasing to 500GB drives on the hope 
that they're more reliable than the 3-5TB monsters.  Is this a mistake?

FWIW, my SA-4004 still works...

--Chuck



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Sep 15 15:30:22 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:30:22 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55F87FDE.2070605@bitsavers.org>

On 9/15/15 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable?  I've seen dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from Seagate, but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.
>

CHM has been having good luck with 3 and 4tb (mostly) Hitachi and Toshiba (several hundred spinning).

Seagate sucks. >50% drive failures (100 drives) in a year,
and when they fail, they wedge the SAS expander they are on.
Our IT people have been pulling them out as soon as the read
errors start to appear in SMART.

I have a handful of 5 and 6tb Toshibas which have been working well.




From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 15 15:54:49 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:54:49 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <004601d0eff8$c4098330$4c1c8990$@net>

> In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable?  I've seen
> dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from
> Seagate,
> but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.

Caveat: my experience is as a home "power user"

In my experience it all depends: I have a set of Seagate "consumer grade"
SATA drives that are now nearly 10 years old that have been spinning in a
RAID 6 almost 24x7 w/o issues. These were bought when Seagate offered a FIVE
year warranty. I've also bought a number of the same type of drives in the
past five years but with only a three year warranty and the failure rate on
those have been abysmal!

Now days I buy "enterprise class drives" (have a RAID 6 w/ 4TB Hitachi
drives and RAID 5 setups w/ Seagate ES and Cheetah drives). They cost a
pretty penny but the peace of mind is worth it. The also have better
warranty service. 

I've never bothered w/ WD drives so I can't comment on those.

If I could find a cheap tape backup solution I would love it but anything
capable of reasonably backing up 20TB is well out of the consumer pocket
book.

-Ali


From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue Sep 15 16:05:37 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:05:37 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151900.PAA13746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509151328410.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Mouse wrote:

> I think the language is less important than what the code is doing.
>
> I can scribble out hundreds of lines a day when it's boilerplate or
> just a mechanical transcription of a well-burnt-in algorithm, but can
> easily drop down to the single-digit range when I'm struggling with a
> difficult problem.  Nor do I have any reason to think I'm unusual in
> any respect here.

Exactly!  I remember that when I was young and foolish (now I am old and
stupid) I dismissed that kind of number but it is not far wrong, I think
the administative overhead is just as significant as the endless time spent
searching for errors and typos or the time consumed discovering how to do
something new and completely differant.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 16:32:43 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:32:43 -0500
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN2PfVezaSH0OaL0Ru7rZsVXbkAQhnvAs09iucRv8YYig@mail.gmail.com>

I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not wrap
it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet and send
it common carrier?

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a
> number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back
> story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The
> desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked.
> While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not.
>
> I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows:
>
> 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it.
> 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap,
> and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight).
> 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if
> this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup).
>
> Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand
> this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would
> easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never
> shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any
> help/guidance is very much appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 15 17:03:48 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:03:48 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <BC9673A7-8E1D-4379-BBC0-10C9023D3A6F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
 <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <BC9673A7-8E1D-4379-BBC0-10C9023D3A6F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
Message-ID: <55F895C4.8010603@btinternet.com>

Now returned from vacation in southen Germany (warmer than the uk) and 
wading through 500+ emails.
Well the good news is that 8.3 _will _install on the 3000 - 600.  It 
boots every time now.
The problem is its verry fussy about the CD drive you use.
Borrowing a nearly new genuine DEC RRD drive from another alpha finally 
did it.
Next job up is to key in the PAK for TCP/IP and pull the whole PAK .cmd  
file over and run it.

Rod


On 08/09/2015 09:58, Huw Davies wrote:
> I don?t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an upgrade but not as an original install.
>
> ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support booting older systems.
>
> As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong?
>
> Huw
>
>> On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I
>> don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media (with
>> most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however
>>> looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>>>
>>> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>>>
>>> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as
>>> supported, only the following:
>>>
>>> Graphics Options
>>> PBXGK
>>> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>>> supported PCI-based
>>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>>> PBXGD
>>> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D
>>> acceleration with
>>> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations and
>>> Servers.
>>> PBXGF
>>> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>>> supported PCI-based
>>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>>> PBXGG
>>> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>>>
>>> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>>>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for
>>>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>>>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics
>>>> demo/test.
>>>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD
>>>> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>>>
>>>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which
>>>> you can load  layered products you need.
>>>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The
>>>> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>>>
>>>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program
>>>> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
> Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
> Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green"
>


From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 15 16:03:33 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:03:33 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <004601d0eff8$c4098330$4c1c8990$@net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <004601d0eff8$c4098330$4c1c8990$@net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVV-3Sv9HZCUEzjVAxAiLQ0YdZk=BWzMQ75EWUzDF1peA@mail.gmail.com>

I ride herd on maybe three or four thousand Hitachi Ultrastar A7K{2,3,4}000
2 TB and 3 TB disks and they take a real pounding with the workload here
and they have just been fantastic ... great drives; very solid ... Also
used the WDC RE4 when Thailand got flooded out a few years ago and we were
in a pinch ... they've been pretty good as well ... not quite as good as
the Hitachis, but not awful (a moot point now that Hitachi owns WDC, I
suppose).

I don't trust Seagate quite to the same level however I think they're fine
for lighter-duty server or certainly home environments ... it's hard to
find a truly bad drive these days (although they are certainly out there
... the WDC 2 TB "Green" unit will always stand out in my mind).

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable?  I've seen
> > dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from
> > Seagate,
> > but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.
>
> Caveat: my experience is as a home "power user"
>
> In my experience it all depends: I have a set of Seagate "consumer grade"
> SATA drives that are now nearly 10 years old that have been spinning in a
> RAID 6 almost 24x7 w/o issues. These were bought when Seagate offered a
> FIVE
> year warranty. I've also bought a number of the same type of drives in the
> past five years but with only a three year warranty and the failure rate on
> those have been abysmal!
>
> Now days I buy "enterprise class drives" (have a RAID 6 w/ 4TB Hitachi
> drives and RAID 5 setups w/ Seagate ES and Cheetah drives). They cost a
> pretty penny but the peace of mind is worth it. The also have better
> warranty service.
>
> I've never bothered w/ WD drives so I can't comment on those.
>
> If I could find a cheap tape backup solution I would love it but anything
> capable of reasonably backing up 20TB is well out of the consumer pocket
> book.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 15 17:09:05 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 18:09:05 -0400
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55F895C4.8010603@btinternet.com>
References: <55ED55F4.7050504@btinternet.com>
 <55ED95C5.5010103@wickensonline.co.uk>
 <CAA43vkXT0cN7-SAmWtYJa09w7EX2pumCze555GYokKHKjL+1Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <BC9673A7-8E1D-4379-BBC0-10C9023D3A6F@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <55F895C4.8010603@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXwN0HUE3Wi2WG3VG=41+Hzhimi0wyReAoMWUFCBNkZGw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I found my DEC 3000 was very, very finicky about the CD-ROM drive as
well ... fortunately persistence prevailed on my 3000/400 :O My experience
is a little limited but the DEC 3000s do seem a little tricky to get to run
right. Just gotta keep at it...

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Rod Smallwood <
rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> Now returned from vacation in southen Germany (warmer than the uk) and
> wading through 500+ emails.
> Well the good news is that 8.3 _will _install on the 3000 - 600.  It boots
> every time now.
> The problem is its verry fussy about the CD drive you use.
> Borrowing a nearly new genuine DEC RRD drive from another alpha finally
> did it.
> Next job up is to key in the PAK for TCP/IP and pull the whole PAK .cmd
> file over and run it.
>
> Rod
>
>
>
> On 08/09/2015 09:58, Huw Davies wrote:
>
>> I don?t have access to the same resources I used to, but a bell ringing
>> in my head says that V8.3 might have been supported on the 3000/400 as an
>> upgrade but not as an original install.
>>
>> ISTR that the problem was running out of space on the CD to support
>> booting older systems.
>>
>> As I said, this comes from memory so I could well be wrong?
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On 8 Sep 2015, at 12:52 am, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a 3000/400 and I was never able to get 8.3 to install on it ... I
>>> don't think I was ever able to get it to even boot from the 8.3 media
>>> (with
>>> most recent firmware) ... I just dropped back to V7.3 and it works great.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was quite surprised about 8.3 supporting the DEC 3000/600 AXP, however
>>>> looking at the Quickspecs you appear to be right.
>>>>
>>>> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx%2Fc04154442.pdf
>>>>
>>>> However, I don't see any Turbochannel graphics adapters listed as
>>>> supported, only the following:
>>>>
>>>> Graphics Options
>>>> PBXGK
>>>> ELSA/GLoria Synergy+ graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>>>> supported PCI-based
>>>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>>>> PBXGD
>>>> PowerStorm 300/500 graphics option that provides 3D acceleration or 3D
>>>> acceleration with
>>>> stereo viewing capabilities for supported PCI-based Alpha Workstations
>>>> and
>>>> Servers.
>>>> PBXGF
>>>> 3DLabs OXYGEN VX1 graphics option that provides 2D acceleration for
>>>> supported PCI-based
>>>> Alpha Workstations and Servers.
>>>> PBXGG
>>>> ATI RADEON 7500 2D and 3D, PCI and AGP graphics option
>>>>
>>>> So you might be out of luck on that front.
>>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 07/09/15 10:16, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station.
>>>>> I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for
>>>>> ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3)
>>>>> SFSG ..  So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics
>>>>> demo/test.
>>>>> Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD
>>>>> drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be.
>>>>>
>>>>> So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which
>>>>> you can load  layered products you need.
>>>>> It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The
>>>>> cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist
>>>>> program
>>>>> in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha  with ALPHA VMS 8.3?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Rod
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
>> Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
>> Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green"
>>
>>
>

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 15 19:09:48 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:09:48 -0700
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuN2PfVezaSH0OaL0Ru7rZsVXbkAQhnvAs09iucRv8YYig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <CACwhfuN2PfVezaSH0OaL0Ru7rZsVXbkAQhnvAs09iucRv8YYig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d0f014$01425180$03c6f480$@net>

> I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not
> wrap it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet
> and send it common carrier?
> 

Paul,

I am on the receiving end of this package so I was not shipping. The seller actually tried to ship FedEx but when he got there they told him packed it would be bigger and/or heavier then what they could ship. He also got a quote from UPS but they wanted $1200 to pack and ship the darn thing.

One of the biggest issues we had was that this was the seller's (and frankly mine as well) first time shipping something so big. He was just not setup to package the thing or transport it. So he wanted to have someone come by and pickup, package, and ship. Eventually, he saw the need to pack it himself (and at least based on the photos he sent) he seemed to have done an excellent job. The desk is scheduled to arrive on Friday so the proof will be in the pudding.

-Ali


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Sep 15 20:25:21 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:25:21 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F85124.2000803@aerodesic.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com> <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>
 <55F3077D.1020905@ao-cs.com> <55F85124.2000803@aerodesic.com>
Message-ID: <55F8C501.9080309@pico-systems.com>

On 09/15/2015 12:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
> I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, 
> but I noticed this morning that the site 
> "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from my comcast 
> (oregon) location.  It's still broken elsewhere because 
> few of the sites I visited that should be on the ring have 
> working webring links, so the javascript inclusion must 
> not yet be universally accessable...
>
Yes, it appears that iinet either fixed what was wrong or 
got whoever else was responsible to get it fixed.  It now 
works from my home and also from work, where both did not 
work consistently for several weeks.  I don't know if I will 
find out WHAT was wrong, but apparently David Brooks made 
inquiries at iinet on Thursday or Friday, and somebody did 
something.

I think it was VERY important that with all of your help, we 
were able to QUANTIFY that this was a widespread blockage.

Thanks!!!

Jon

From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com  Tue Sep 15 20:45:46 2015
From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 18:45:46 -0700
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442336400.94193.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442336400.94193.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C301223BE939D3@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com>

> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600
> From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
> 	incl. Intel ISIS
> 
> Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was
> shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the
> MDS-800 in 1975.  A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is
> listed among other Intel manuals at:
> 
>     http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm

Looked up the copyright registration for the manual and related items:

A712678.  MDS-DOS diskette operating system operator's manual  79 p.
Add. ti:  Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development
System MDS-DOS operator's manual. (c) Intel Corporation; 22Dec75.

A712670.  Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development
System MDS-DOS hardware reference manual. 1 v. (c) Intel
Corporation; 15Dec75.





From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 15 20:53:25 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:53:25 -0600
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
In-Reply-To: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C301223BE939D3@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com>
References: <mailman.1.1442336400.94193.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C301223BE939D3@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com>
Message-ID: <55F8CB95.9090503@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/15/2015 7:45 PM, Smith, Wayne wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600
>> From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
>> 	incl. Intel ISIS
>>
>> Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was
>> shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the
>> MDS-800 in 1975.  A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is
>> listed among other Intel manuals at:
>>
>>      http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm
>
> Looked up the copyright registration for the manual and related items:
>
> A712678.  MDS-DOS diskette operating system operator's manual  79 p.
> Add. ti:  Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development
> System MDS-DOS operator's manual. (c) Intel Corporation; 22Dec75.
>
> A712670.  Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development
> System MDS-DOS hardware reference manual. 1 v. (c) Intel
> Corporation; 15Dec75.
>
Here is a bit on CP/M.

http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html
Ben.

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 21:50:42 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:50:42 -0500
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F87943.9090901@philpem.me.uk>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd7P=ttuor=ekAs_dpA3poeG+2jxuG5XULeVZa_5DL3HGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQAvA-vRftBZr_B3J31jBrA9oMumJ06a5dPmw68zCmnBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F87943.9090901@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <20150916025042.GP3303@gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 15/09/15 19:27, Eric Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:38 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> To the cloud, to the CLOUD!!
> > 
> > There is no cloud, just other people's computers.
> 
> "Real men don't make backups, they just put their stuff on an FTP and
> let the rest of the world mirror it..."

"Can't sleep; cloud will eat me."

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 22:00:25 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 22:00:25 -0500
Subject: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <005f01d0f014$01425180$03c6f480$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <CACwhfuN2PfVezaSH0OaL0Ru7rZsVXbkAQhnvAs09iucRv8YYig@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d0f014$01425180$03c6f480$@net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuP1xan3twJ=qb08TgcTwpaxgWTdbAQJ1jtm1KKsfmfTRA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm very used to first time shippers. I hope it works out well for you.


On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > I know I'm a little late on this, but for something that small why not
> > wrap it in bubble or whatever, put it in a gaylord strap it to a pallet
> > and send it common carrier?
> >
>
> Paul,
>
> I am on the receiving end of this package so I was not shipping. The
> seller actually tried to ship FedEx but when he got there they told him
> packed it would be bigger and/or heavier then what they could ship. He also
> got a quote from UPS but they wanted $1200 to pack and ship the darn thing.
>
> One of the biggest issues we had was that this was the seller's (and
> frankly mine as well) first time shipping something so big. He was just not
> setup to package the thing or transport it. So he wanted to have someone
> come by and pickup, package, and ship. Eventually, he saw the need to pack
> it himself (and at least based on the photos he sent) he seemed to have
> done an excellent job. The desk is scheduled to arrive on Friday so the
> proof will be in the pudding.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 22:37:21 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 22:37:21 -0500
Subject: internet blocking problem ?
In-Reply-To: <55F8C501.9080309@pico-systems.com>
References: <1441943383.20576.YahooMailBasic@web184701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <55F25459.60304@aerodesic.com> <55F303E5.2060909@ao-cs.com>
 <55F3077D.1020905@ao-cs.com> <55F85124.2000803@aerodesic.com>
 <55F8C501.9080309@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22h0sVNaUtsad7mXOGPKJ_qFiOcHnrB1CgNmzSXYjwWCA@mail.gmail.com>

im in wpg canada and can see it through rogers mobile


On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 09/15/2015 12:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:
>
>> I don't know if anyone got to the bottom of this blockage, but I noticed
>> this morning that the site "members.iinet.net.au" is now accessible from
>> my comcast (oregon) location.  It's still broken elsewhere because few of
>> the sites I visited that should be on the ring have working webring links,
>> so the javascript inclusion must not yet be universally accessable...
>>
>> Yes, it appears that iinet either fixed what was wrong or got whoever
> else was responsible to get it fixed.  It now works from my home and also
> from work, where both did not work consistently for several weeks.  I don't
> know if I will find out WHAT was wrong, but apparently David Brooks made
> inquiries at iinet on Thursday or Friday, and somebody did something.
>
> I think it was VERY important that with all of your help, we were able to
> QUANTIFY that this was a widespread blockage.
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> Jon
>

From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 22:50:32 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:50:32 -0400
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151044120.26786@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151044120.26786@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb1nE02s67Q5AbxhSRtNhGZirhdfSn-JQc5LESr4yOqffA@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 September 2015 at 13:52, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Would anybody really trust the miscreants to provide the key after the
> ransom is paid?
>
They actually do deliver. It's their "business model"; if they didn't
deliver the keys to decrypt your data after paying them, then
eventually word would get out that they don't and no one would pay
them anymore. Plus, delivering the keys is pretty much an automated
e-mail system probably.

Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 04:21:22 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:21:22 +0100
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55F823E1.4030604@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150915115740.F3E9B18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55F823E1.4030604@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <078b01d0f061$0dd485b0$297d9110$@gmail.com>

By the way I have now found out how to retrieve this through the University
of Salford Library, where I am a member...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2015 2:58 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
> Intel ISIS
> 
> On 9/15/15 4:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units
> > with cables)
> 
> In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer.
> 
> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839
> 
> 
> 



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep 16 07:41:18 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:41:18 -0500
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
Message-ID: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>

I took on a brand new client a while back, and before doing any real work for them they were hit by cryptolocker. I hadn't yet even done a "IT Review" for them, so didn't yet know what systems they had in place.

Thus, under the gun, I started looking at their backup setup, and found it "severely lacking". They did have a backup system from the previous IT guy, but due to the way it was set up it would have taken days to get the data off of it and all moved back into the correct spots.

So given days of billable time/work or paying the ransom, we chose to pay the ransom as the most expedient solution. They only accepted bitcoin, and there was a deadline after which the ransom doubled or more. So we jumped through hoops to get a bitcoin account set up, funds deposited, etc. That was a rather convoluted process and took time (albeit less time than working with the existing "backup" system).

Soon as the bitcoin was transferred to the hostages account, a key was received online via the TOR browser. Yep, the key worked, and decrypted all the data.

A new (and easy/functional) backup system was put in place immediately thereafter. I've also talked to a few of my associates who own IT consulting firms, and any of them that decided to pay the ransom did in fact get a working decryption key. ZFS is a good solution :)

Best,

J



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 08:19:48 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Clearpoint Q-RAM 11 chip locations
Message-ID: <20150916131948.DC24818C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Documentation for the Clearpoint Q-RAM 11 board seems to be rather scarce;
all I could find was a user manual, with no technical info (manual or prints
or other documentation) online. (I'd be glad to be proved wrong! :-)

So as part of a project I needed to figure out which memory chips were which;
now that I've worked it out, I'm putting that info online here in the
archives, where eventually Google will find it, and make it available to
anyone who needs it.


So, looking at the card from the component side, with the handle at the top,
and the contact fingers at the bottom, there's an array of memory chips 12
columns wide, and 6 rows high; I see no ID system on the card, so I number
the columns A-L (from the left), and the rows 0-5 (from the top). The card
can have 4 banks of 128KB each, for a max total of 512KB.

The chip-bit relationship is pretty random:

Bank 0 - Columns A, E, I:

01	I2
02	E5
04	I3
010	A5
020	A4
040	A2
0100	A0
0200	A1
0400	E3
01000	A3
02000	E0
04000	E4
010000	E1
020000	E2
040000	I1
0100000	I0

Bank 1 - Columns B, F, J:
Bank 2 - Columns C, G, K:
Bank 3 - Columns D, H, L:

The banks 2/3 column assignments are a guess, not verified as yet. The bit
allocation seems to be the same in all banks; I tried a few in bank 1, and
they matched the ones in bank 0 (suitably offset in column, of course).

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 08:36:57 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:36:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
Message-ID: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, I'm trying to fix a broken Power Monitor Boards (the thing that drives
ACLO/DCLO) in an H786 (BA11-N power supply), and although I have the prints,
I can't make head or tail out of them.

(The circuit is a maze of op-amps and 555's. OK, OK, so maybe an analog guy
can take one quick look, and understand instantly how it works. But I don't
have that gene! :-)

So I'm looking for a BA11-N or BA11-S Technical Manual, to explain it to me
(my experience is that the DEC Tech Manuals for power supplies are _really_
good at that).

(Either the BA11-N or BA11-S since, although the PM boards have different
part numbers in the two - 54-12528-0-1 in the BA11-N/H786, and 54-15048-0-1
in the BA11-S/H7861, the circuits in the two seem to be pretty much
identical, looking at the prints.)

Alas, neither seems to be available online. (The BA11-N is EK-BA11N-TM-001;
the BA11-S is in the "PDP-11/23B Mounting Box Technical Manual",
EK-23BMB-TM-001.)


I have clues to the existence of a couple of copies of the BA11-N one,
though.

A "David Powell" (then at ICUKnet in the UK) sent out a message saying he had
one, but the email address for him at ICUKnet no longer works - I haven't
(yet) tried to find him via LinkedIn because it's a common name. I don't
suppose anyone here knows him, do they?

Also, this page:

  http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Book-Catalog.html

which claims to be the "Book Catalog (incomplete) of the Computer History
Museum, as of July 27 2002" says they have one. Would it still be there,
and is there any chance that, if so, it can be scanned an put online?


Many thanks, in advance, for any help with this - I'm pretty desperate!

	Noel

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 16 09:18:38 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:18:38 +0000
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D48DD@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


 > So, I'm trying to fix a broken Power Monitor Boards (the thing that drives
> ACLO/DCLO) in an H786 (BA11-N power supply), and although I have the prints,
> I can't make head or tail out of them.
> 
> (The circuit is a maze of op-amps and 555's. OK, OK, so maybe an analog guy
> can take one quick look, and understand instantly how it works. But I don't
> have that gene! :-)

Do you have a URL for the prints (to save me going through all possible 
candidates on bitsavers)?

I'm no 'analog(ue) guy' but I can see if there is anything obvious. What is 
the fault with your board?

-tony

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Sep 16 09:24:27 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:24:27 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
In-Reply-To: <97e9cb63-7626-44b8-86b8-1a5bd7fb6149@classiccmp.org>
References: <97e9cb63-7626-44b8-86b8-1a5bd7fb6149@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55F97B9B.3090206@compsys.to>

 >Noel Chiappa wrote:

>OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document
>feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in
>a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to
>have.
>
>The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which
>Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online
>- thanks Paul!), now available here:
>
>  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-DZV11-TM-001_Jun78.pdf
>
>(as always, please download/distribute/replicate to other repositories).
>I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here:
>
>  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf
>
I was able to look at both manuals.  THANK  YOU!!

However, both of the directories at the next level up are blocked.
If there is any possibility that both these directories could be made
available to allow the other PDF files to be viewed, that would be
appreciated.

If not, a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are
available to be viewed would be appreciated.

Also, do you have any files of source code or binary distributions
of RT-11 files?

I have a number of RT-11 DOC sets which I am no longer using:
V05.05  RT-11  DOC set
V05.04G  RT-11  DOC set
V05.02  RT-11  DOC set

I am not positive about the latter two, but the V05.05  RT-11
DOC set is probably available unless Jay West wants it now
rather than waiting for the V05.07  RT-11  DOC set.  Since
not of these dead tree RT-11  DOC sets are bound, they would
be easy to (automatically) scan - except that each of the RT-11
DOC sets is approximately 5,000 pages and both sides must
be scanned for a total of about 10,000 pages each.

Since the V05.07  RT-11  DOC set is already scanned and
available as many PDF files, there may not be any interest
in the prior versions.  Please let me know.  If no one is interested,
then I will start discarding them in a few months.  I have promised
to send the dead tree version of my V05.07  RT-11  DOC set to
Jay West, but that will wait until I am on the other side of the green
rug - or at least close enough.

Jerome Fine

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep 16 09:41:30 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:41:30 -0700
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F97F9A.9090100@bitsavers.org>

On 9/16/15 6:36 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> Also, this page:
>
>    http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Book-Catalog.html
>
> which claims to be the "Book Catalog (incomplete) of the Computer History
> Museum, as of July 27 2002" says they have one. Would it still be there,
> and is there any chance that, if so, it can be scanned an put online?
>

2002?

No, it is not there, and I wish Ed would take that page down.

That was an inventory of the bookshelf at the old building at Moffett Field
and has minimal value as a search tool for what CHM actually has today.

The text collection has been reboxed and moved at least four times since that list
was made. All of the technical manuals were pulled out when the CHM Library
room was created. The library no longer exists, and the hardcovers and periodicals
that were there were cataloged and are in the CHM database at
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/

If you can't find something in there (currently almost 100,000 records) it hasn't
been cataloged. Everything is in archival record cartons, stored two-deep on
shelves in two different buildings, making random searches pretty much impossible.
There is a two-year project that just started to start to catalog the text backlog,
but that will just scratch the surface of what needs doing.

That was one of the driving forces for me scanning things, the time to catalog was
so long for the past ten years that I could never find anything when I was looking
for it, and I'm still finding things that I didn't know we had, like the CE manuals
for the 7040 CPU, which I came across in the catalog last night looking for a IO
processor manual the 1401 guys were looking for.

Alan Frisbie may have scanned it. I think he is on the cctlk list.







From simski at dds.nl  Wed Sep 16 09:57:49 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:57:49 +0200
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55F9836D.5070205@dds.nl>

Windows?

On 16-09-15 14:41, Jay West wrote:
> I took on a brand new client a while back, and before doing any real work for them they were hit by cryptolocker. I hadn't yet even done a "IT Review" for them, so didn't yet know what systems they had in place.
>
> Thus, under the gun, I started looking at their backup setup, and found it "severely lacking". They did have a backup system from the previous IT guy, but due to the way it was set up it would have taken days to get the data off of it and all moved back into the correct spots.
>
> So given days of billable time/work or paying the ransom, we chose to pay the ransom as the most expedient solution. They only accepted bitcoin, and there was a deadline after which the ransom doubled or more. So we jumped through hoops to get a bitcoin account set up, funds deposited, etc. That was a rather convoluted process and took time (albeit less time than working with the existing "backup" system).
>
> Soon as the bitcoin was transferred to the hostages account, a key was received online via the TOR browser. Yep, the key worked, and decrypted all the data.
>
> A new (and easy/functional) backup system was put in place immediately thereafter. I've also talked to a few of my associates who own IT consulting firms, and any of them that decided to pay the ransom did in fact get a working decryption key. ZFS is a good solution :)
>
> Best,
>
> J
>
>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep 16 10:24:15 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:24:15 -0700
Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information
In-Reply-To: <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us>
References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <55F9899F.3000002@bitsavers.org>

On 8/11/15 7:36 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> Hello Seth,
>
> We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got me to thinking about your emulator project.
>
> Can you share a status update?
>
> Is there anything us non-developers can do to assist?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jerry
>
>
> On 01/19/15 01:45 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I've made tremendous progress on my 3B2 emulator. It's being
>> implemented under the SIMH simulator platform, which has been a huge
>> help.
>>

fyi


http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101593#Post101593




From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Sep 16 11:38:37 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:38:37 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>



On 9/16/2015 5:41 AM, Jay West wrote:
>   ZFS is a good solution:)
Is it a versioning file system?  I know it handles large data sets. Does 
versioning or such as time machine setups (Mac OS type of backup) defeat 
the problem.  I know you don't have time machine with PC's that get hit, 
are other than Windows systems vulnerable?

Did it hit the NAS storage, or just the attached drives?

One system, or did it propagate thru the organization?

Did you eradicate it, then get a tool for the decrypt?

Curious as to details here to think about measures to stop it, or 
mitigate it.

I'd apologize for the off topic direction, but this is a pretty serious 
threat that is hard to find info on that isn't bullshit or glossed over.

Reply offline if you would rather, but I suspect anyone with classic 
Windows XP systems and the like should pay attention.

thanks
Jim


From lists at loomcom.com  Wed Sep 16 12:06:34 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:06:34 -0500
Subject: Still seeking 3B2 information
In-Reply-To: <55F9899F.3000002@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150119194516.GA9021@loomcom.com> <55CA0874.8080005@oryx.us>
 <55F9899F.3000002@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150916170634.GA28161@loomcom.com>

* On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 08:24:15AM -0700, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 8/11/15 7:36 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> >Hello Seth,
> >
> >We were having a 3B2 discussion on the Sun Rescue list, and that got me to thinking about your emulator project.
> >
> >Can you share a status update?
> >
> >Is there anything us non-developers can do to assist?
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Jerry
[...]
> 
> fyi
> 
> 
> http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101593#Post101593

Shattered has been contributing some bug fixes back to the 3B2
project, for which I'm very grateful.  I'm terribly excited to see
where his DMD 5620 emulator goes.

-Seth

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 16 12:06:51 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:06:51 +0100
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916133657.279FD18C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F9A1AB.4070203@ntlworld.com>

On 16/09/15 14:36, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Alas, neither seems to be available online. (The BA11-N is EK-BA11N-TM-001;
> the BA11-S is in the "PDP-11/23B Mounting Box Technical Manual",
> EK-23BMB-TM-001.)

I guess they're not much use to you, but both the user guides
(EK-BA11N-UG and EK-23BMB-UG-001) are available online.

I do have EP-BA11N-TM-001 and EK-BA11N-IP and EP-23BMB-TM-001
but they're microfiche and I have no easy way of scanning that.

If you don't get anywhere, I can try firing up the fiche reader and see
what's actually described in  there.

Antonio

arcarlini at iee.org


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 12:29:32 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:29:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
Message-ID: <20150916172932.44E0118C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all
    > the ones which aren't online.
    > ...
    > EK-1184A-TM-PR4	    11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary)
    > EK-1184E-TM-001	    PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual
    > EK-1184E-MG	    PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide

So I spaced. 1184E-TM-001 _is_ online; not sure how I missed it!


    > From: Henk Gooijen

    > I would be very interested in the 11/84 docs, as far as not available.

I'm not sure there's much in the other two which isn't in the other 11/84
manuals which are already online - I think the content is mostly the same,
just arranged differently. A few minor tweaks (e.g. that sentence I found a
while back about the BIAK/BDMG jumpers on the 11/84 backplane), but nothing
major.

I'll get to them at some point - alas, I bound them, so now I have to
un-bind them before I can scan them! Oh well!!

    > I have EK-KK11A-TM-001  "KK11-A cache memory technical manual"

Lyle Bickley made that one available a couple of months back. It doesn't seem
to have made it into the repositories, though? Should I upload a copy to my
web site, and send along the URL?


    > From: Jerome H. Fine

    > However, both of the directories at the next level up are blocked. If
    > there is any possibility that both these directories could be made
    > available to allow the other PDF files to be viewed

Err, there are no other PDF files there, except the 11/73 CPU board prints,
which I mentioned here recently and have now been mirrored.

    > If not, a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are
    > available to be viewed would be appreciated.

I should probably throw together a web page with links to all the PDP-11
files there (e.g. the one I just put together, of print sets that are
available inside other print sets), and link to that from my home page.

    > Also, do you have any files of source code or binary distributions of
    > RT-11 files?

Alas, being of the MIT persuasion, we never did anything with DEC software
(except TWENEX, on the DECSystem20's), so I have nothing of anything to do
with DEC software - Unix all the way! ;-)


	Noel

From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 16 12:40:23 2015
From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:40:23 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>

>From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
>
>> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS
> >to you keep around?"
>
>For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes.  There's
>something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent
>seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve
>months, and the oldest backup in any year.  I'm considering something
>of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host,
>with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives
>on a scheme somewhat like the above.
 
There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts them when they are accessed. It does this for six months before deactivating the on-demand decryption and displaying the ransom message, the theory being that by that time all of the backups will be of the encrypted files, and thus will be useless for restoring good versions.
 
As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/27/malvertising_feature/?page=1. Major sites, such as The New York Times, Reuters, Yahoo!, and Bloomberg, have been serving malware -- including ransomeware -- through hijacked advertisements. No need to click on anything, the ad serves up the malware.
 
BTW, where I work got hit with ransomeware in December. We were lucky that it first hosed the accounting/time tracking database, which generated errors when someone tried to enter her time. When I went to restore a backup of the database, I noticed the ransomware's html ransom note file and shut down the system before too many more files were encypted. We were able to restore everything (except the originally infected user's computer, which we wiped and reinstalled) from an unconnected backup drive.
 
Bob
 		 	   		  

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Sep 16 12:40:25 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:40:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 16 Sep 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
> One system, or did it propagate thru the organization?
> Did you eradicate it, then get a tool for the decrypt?

Not very hard to stop it, but the damage that it does to the files (RSA 
encryption) is irreparable, unless you pay the ransom.  A significant 
percentage of the victimes pay up!  A few people have reported that the 
malevolent assholes are honorable, and do provide a working key.  A small 
few report NOT getting the decryption key.

Without major distributed work on it, decryption through brute force key 
trials would take millenia.
The purveyors of one variant were stopped, and their key database 
revealed.  I don't know if or why they are still alive.

> Curious as to details here to think about measures to stop it, or mitigate 
> it.
> I'd apologize for the off topic direction, but this is a pretty serious 
> threat that is hard to find info on that isn't bullshit or glossed over.
> Reply offline if you would rather, but I suspect anyone with classic 
> Windows XP systems and the like should pay attention.

It relies on social engineering (suckers).
Sometimes PDF files, but, I now think that I got it by falling for a fake 
Adobe upgrade popup.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Sep 16 13:01:22 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Robert Feldman wrote:
> There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently 
> decrypts them when they are accessed. It does this for six months before 
> deactivating the on-demand decryption and displaying the ransom message, 
> the theory being that by that time all of the backups will be of the 
> encrypted files, and thus will be useless for restoring good versions.

Thereby rendering generations of backups ineffective.  When you restore, 
you still can not get back any of the file modifications (work) done in 
the last 6 months.  Thus, the only acceptable solution would be early 
detection.

Neither AVG (resident), nor McAfee (manually run weekly) detected my 
infection of Cryptowall.  What WILL detect it?

> As to how one can become infected, see 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/27/malvertising_feature/?page=1. 
> Major sites, such as The New York Times, Reuters, Yahoo!, and Bloomberg, 
> have been serving malware -- including ransomeware -- through hijacked 
> advertisements. No need to click on anything, the ad serves up the 
> malware.

But, those still require a gullibility error on the part of the user, 
don't they?  Do the ads actually load and run the ransomware, or just 
present the fraudulent upgrade offer to bring it in?



From t.gardner at computer.org  Wed Sep 16 13:08:57 2015
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:08:57 -0700
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
In-Reply-To: <55F86B5C.4060901@gmail.com>
References: <CAGix5NnxaYXNWkczk3co0OFJVJ3ADuABBA9RfDROQmgvqxH09g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F86B5C.4060901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b601d0f0aa$c19728c0$44c57a40$@computer.org>

To the best of my recollection there never was any production FD greater
than 8-inches, but u don't have to rely upon my fallible recollection since
neither Porter's 1977 nor his 1982 Disk/Trends for FDDs mentions anything
about larger media diameter.    The 1977 version was the first one Jim
published.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Jules Richardson [mailto:jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 12:03 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 12" Floppy Disks

On 09/15/2015 03:39 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
> Morning folks,
>
> I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information 
> about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure 
> I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. 
> Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs 
> but I'm not so sure.

Ask him if he remembers whether the disk had a jacket or not, that might
help narrow it down. Was it read-write or read-only? Was it definitely
digital data or perhaps something analog-but-with-a-computer-application?







From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 16 13:10:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:10:50 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>

This brings up something that's always baffled me.

Why does a user's (or worse, the entire system's) files have to be 
immediately accessible to any application wanting to take a look.

Take a legacy example, SCOPE or NOS on a CDC mainframe.  At start of 
job, you start out with a null file set available to you, but for 
standard input and output pre-named files.

If you need a pre-existing "permanent" file, you attach that to your 
current session, providing the necessary password and other information, 
such as the cycle number--and then giving that file its own (local) 
name--i.e. user-permanent files have a different (usually longer) name 
than what they're known as locally.

To the best of my knowledge, outside of password leaks (a different 
password, if you wanted, for each type of access), we had no security 
issues.

The better approach in modern times, I suppose, is to sandbox your 
browser--and never, never, never browse with administrative privileges. 
(Something the average Windows user doesn't seem to understand).

Has cryptolocker ever invaded the world of Unix/Linux/BSD?

--Chuck


From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Sep 16 13:15:32 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:15:32 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <89p2k6if4iq8slkk42s6ebne.1442427325627@email.android.com>


    
We have 10 years of backups.ed#


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert Feldman <r_a_feldman at hotmail.com> 
Date: 09/16/2015  10:40 AM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Subject: re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] 

>From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
>
>> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS
> >to you keep around?"
>
>For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes.? There's
>something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent
>seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve
>months, and the oldest backup in any year.? I'm considering something
>of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host,
>with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives
>on a scheme somewhat like the above.
 
There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts them when they are accessed. It does this for six months before deactivating the on-demand decryption and displaying the ransom message, the theory being that by that time all of the backups will be of the encrypted files, and thus will be useless for restoring good versions.
 
As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/27/malvertising_feature/?page=1. Major sites, such as The New York Times, Reuters, Yahoo!, and Bloomberg, have been serving malware -- including ransomeware -- through hijacked advertisements. No need to click on anything, the ad serves up the malware.
 
BTW, where I work got hit with ransomeware in December. We were lucky that it first hosed the accounting/time tracking database, which generated errors when someone tried to enter her time. When I went to restore a backup of the database, I noticed the ransomware's html ransom note file and shut down the system before too many more files were encypted. We were able to restore everything (except the originally infected user's computer, which we wiped and reinstalled) from an unconnected backup drive.
 
Bob
 		 	?? 		? 

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 16 13:20:14 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:20:14 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
In-Reply-To: <20150916172932.44E0118C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916172932.44E0118C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS322228AF58ADCA5DCD80E9865B0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:29 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

    > From: Henk Gooijen

    > I have EK-KK11A-TM-001  "KK11-A cache memory technical manual"

Lyle Bickley made that one available a couple of months back. It doesn't 
seem
to have made it into the repositories, though? Should I upload a copy to my
web site, and send along the URL?

Noel

======
Thanks, but that manual will pop up eventually :-)
Besides, my 11/34 is functional running RT-11, although it cannot hurt
to run a few diagnostics, especially for the KK1 cache.
But there are several other machines waiting in line (literally) to
get TLC (and repair work).

- Henk 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep 16 13:20:20 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:20:20 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <89p2k6if4iq8slkk42s6ebne.1442427325627@email.android.com>
References: <89p2k6if4iq8slkk42s6ebne.1442427325627@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <55F9B2E4.40101@bitsavers.org>

On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote:

> We have 10 years of backups.ed#
>
ever verified them?




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 13:23:16 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
Message-ID: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: tony duell

    > Do you have a URL for the prints (to save me going through all possible
    > candidates on bitsavers)?

Yeah, as per my 'where are subsystem prints' page, they are in the 11/23
print set MP00740, pg. 81-87 (schematic on pg. 87):

  https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decqbusMP0_10391074

(Doesn't seem to be on BitSavers?)


    > What is the fault with your board?

First, I should explain that I do have a working PM board, so we can swap back
and forth to see what a working one looks like. It also verifies that the
fault is on that board, since the working one is fine in that chassis.

Anyway, on the bad one, both ACLO and DCLO (BPOK and BDCOK, I guess the QBUS
guys call them :-) are being pulled low.

Looking at the board, D5 (the Q3 end) is at ground, the other end is at
around ~-3V; with D4, both ends are at ground. On the good board, both
ends of each diode go to -12V shortly after the machine powers on.

(Advance thanks for any help! :-)

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Sep 16 13:24:05 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:24:05 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <B4DD3224-36A9-49A8-B8E2-A9DD17214B05@comcast.net>


> On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:01 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> ...
> Neither AVG (resident), nor McAfee (manually run weekly) detected my infection of Cryptowall.  What WILL detect it?

Linux?  :-)

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Sep 16 13:29:50 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:29:50 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>


> On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> This brings up something that's always baffled me.
> 
> Why does a user's (or worse, the entire system's) files have to be immediately accessible to any application wanting to take a look.
> 
> Take a legacy example, SCOPE or NOS on a CDC mainframe.  ...

Just remember that those older systems may well have had any number of security issues of their own.  They did benefit a lot from "security by obscurity" as well as the fact that they weren't connected to the Internet.

I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC operating systems, but I still remember a simple hole I found in OS/360, about a month after I first wrote a program for that OS.  It allowed anyone to run supervisor mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source code. I found it on OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate school that it still worked on the university's 370 running OS/MVS 21.7.

(The magic?  Use the OS service to give a symbolic name to a location in your code, with a well chosen name, then give that name as the name of the "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.)

	paul


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 16 13:41:18 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:41:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ransomware [was Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]]
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201509161841.OAA18402@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts $

This depends on the backup-taking accessing the files in a way that
doesn't trip the decryption.

It also depends on nobody test-restoring from the backups, or at least
not sanity-checking the results if they do.

It also depends on being able to infect the OS and sit there for months
without anyone noticing.

> As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/$

This depends on the user - perhaps by proxy in the form of something
the user runs - executing content offered by the malvertising-serving
server.

Thus, defense in depth:

(1) Don't run things that execute live content without explicit,
specific approval by the user.  Educate users as to the few cases when
giving such approval is sane.

(2) Avoid common OSes and ISAs, so that most malware (ransomware or
otherwise) can't run even if it gets through to the machine.

(3) Test-restore from your backups periodically.

Of course, most people will say they "can't" do one or more of those,
actually meaning they're not willing to pay the prices involved.  Such
people need to realize that they will pay one price or the other, and
they'll just have to decide which prices they prefer.  Personally, I do
about two and a quarter of the above: (1), 3/4 of (2), and 1/2 of (3).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Sep 16 13:49:30 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:49:30 -0700
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F9B9BA.6090308@bitsavers.org>

On 9/16/15 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>    https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decqbusMP0_10391074
>
> (Doesn't seem to be on BitSavers?)

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP00740_1123_schem_Oct81.pdf




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 16 13:54:14 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:54:14 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55F9B2E4.40101@bitsavers.org>
References: <89p2k6if4iq8slkk42s6ebne.1442427325627@email.android.com>
 <55F9B2E4.40101@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55F9BAD6.4030308@sydex.com>

On 09/16/2015 11:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote:
>
>> We have 10 years of backups.ed#
>>
> ever verified them?

Mine go back to sometime around 1980.  I have customer records that go 
back to 1987.  Curiously, we got a note from a fellow needing an update 
to CopyQM.  He registered his product in 1992.  We found it and provided 
him with a 1999 update--the last we did before the sale of the software 
(the terms of sale allow us to support existing customers).

Just keep carrying the stuff forward.  I've even provided other authors 
with copies of their own source code after they'd lost track of it.

You never know when having complete archives will come in handy.  But 
you already know that, Al!

--Chuck

From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Sep 16 13:55:59 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:55:59 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <i1d854lm2qq4q77amhkeh1fp.1442429759347@email.android.com>


    
Enough repeated material over time just in case but yes,at one point random did .
BACK UPS on backups ?on backups in my cases. Of course if one orig source file is bad from 10 years ago ?the backups of said file are eckky too. ?I await the dvds made of stone stuff
I like to stash backups off site scattered about the country too. Geographical diversity is great... az though saver than calif ...earthquakes. ..and safer than areas with floods and huricanes..
I guess it is all a roll of the dice ?though. .. ?but just do it lots and cast it far and wide.
I have no only museum stuff to worry ?about but also the news service stuff we do.....Ed# www.smecc.orgSent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> 
Date: 09/16/2015  11:20 AM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] 

On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote:

> We have 10 years of backups.ed#
>
ever verified them?




From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Sep 16 14:04:54 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:04:54 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <7qni838acscj86289d0bydq3.1442429985696@email.android.com>


    
Well then we have hp 3000 stuff from 23 years ago...?Was ?then..?But soon we will see if these tape sets live.. it will be good if so as there is hp software ?of unique ?nature ?that only existed being saved on our tape sets..... then there ?is the older hp 2000 stuff.... ?5 fascinating unique things ?some were rewritten for 3000. But a few not and if you want ron on a 2000 you can not go backwards. ..need more hp2000 and 3000 hardware help! ?Ed# ?www.smecc.org


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> 
Date: 09/16/2015  11:54 AM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] 

On 09/16/2015 11:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote:
>
>> We have 10 years of backups.ed#
>>
> ever verified them?

Mine go back to sometime around 1980.? I have customer records that go 
back to 1987.? Curiously, we got a note from a fellow needing an update 
to CopyQM.? He registered his product in 1992.? We found it and provided 
him with a 1999 update--the last we did before the sale of the software 
(the terms of sale allow us to support existing customers).

Just keep carrying the stuff forward.? I've even provided other authors 
with copies of their own source code after they'd lost track of it.

You never know when having complete archives will come in handy.? But 
you already know that, Al!

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 16 14:19:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:19:36 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55F9C0C8.8080203@sydex.com>

On 09/16/2015 11:29 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC operating systems,
> but I still remember a simple hole I found in OS/360, about a month
> after I first wrote a program for that OS.  It allowed anyone to run
> supervisor mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source
> code. I found it on OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate school
> that it still worked on the university's 370 running OS/MVS 21.7.
>
> (The magic?  Use the OS service to give a symbolic name to a location
> in your code, with a well chosen name, then give that name as the
> name of the "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.)

I recall going through a dump of a 360/40 running DOS and digging out 
the names of the various transient phases.  Lots of interesting stuff 
there--and DOS did nothing to verify that a phase could be invoked only 
internally.

At CDC a couple of us were dealing with a SCOPE 3.1.6 or 3.2 version (I 
don't recall which) and decided to see what would happen if one combined 
the RPV PP call (job reprieve) with the RSJ (reschedule job) call. 
What happened was what you'd expect to happen--said job would keep 
spawning copies of itself--and like the sorcerer's apprentice, spawned 
another new copy when the operator tried to kill the job.  The simple 
way to kill the thing was to deadstart--there may have been others, but 
the input queue filled up pretty quickly.

We tried this out on dedicated block time and were delighted with its 
operation.  Some idiot in CPD tried it on COMSOURCE time was was told in 
no uncertain words that severe disciplinary action would be taken should 
he try that one again.

SCOPE 3.4 introduced the "Read List String" CIO call, which was intended 
for use by the loader.  The idea being that you presented 1SP with a 
list of disk addresses to read into a single buffer to build the 
executable.  Someone, noticing that this was a linked list, decided to 
see what would happen if the list looped back on itself.  Of course, the 
obvious *did* happen with 1SP so distracted that no other disk request 
would be honored, including PP overlays.

That reminded me of the S/360 trick of using chained CCWs to ring the 
bell on the 1052 endlessly.

Fun times.

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 16 14:19:06 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 19:19:06 +0000
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4971@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> 
> Yeah, as per my 'where are subsystem prints' page, they are in the 11/23
> print set MP00740, pg. 81-87 (schematic on pg. 87):

OK, got it... A one page schematic, a board witht 4 ICs. Shouldn't be too hard...
(famous last words!)

OK, first thing, the things that look like op-amps are in fact comparators. They
have open collector outputs. I would read the LM339 datasheet if you've not 
come across this chip before. It is a very common IC.

Because of the power connections to E1 and E4 (shown on the right hand side of
the schematic) the ouptus swtich between -12V and floating. This means that 
resistors connected from said outputs to ground are actually pull-up 
resistors. That threw me for a few seconds!

The 555s are being used unconventionally. But let's not panic for the moment.

Since you have a working board, the first thing I would compare is the reference 
voltage from D2. Measure the voltage on pins 7 and 9 of the chip E1. 

If that's the same on both boards, attempt to isolate the problem by checking 
the voltage on in 3 of the 555 timers. Are those the same on the good and 
faulty boards?

-tony

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 16 15:27:16 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:27:16 -0500
Subject: Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual
In-Reply-To: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916182316.915E918C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55F9D0A4.5000900@charter.net>

On 9/16/2015 1:23 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: tony duell
> 
>     > Do you have a URL for the prints (to save me going through all possible
>     > candidates on bitsavers)?
> 
> Yeah, as per my 'where are subsystem prints' page, they are in the 11/23
> print set MP00740, pg. 81-87 (schematic on pg. 87):
> 
>   https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decqbusMP0_10391074
> 

There is a separate BA11-N print set, MP-00487, as well.  I have a
hardcopy, but that one does not seem to be on bitsavers.

There is a BA11-S schematic, MP01233, that is in Bitsavers, directory qbus.

I don't have a technical manual.

One thing I note from the schematics is the "+12V startup" generated off
of a 7812 three terminal regulator, Z1 on the H7861 P.S. Master Board.
I'd want to check that, because if it isn't right, nothing else will
work, and it would be really easy to check.

The 555's reference in one of the messages seem to be involved in
generating AC L and DC L.

JRJ

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 16 14:22:19 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:22:19 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Cyber systems didn't get much love from the H/P kids back in the day :O

http://phrack.org/issues/18/5.html

That said; NOS is one of the few mainframe systems ever really discussed in
Phrack... MVS/TSO and VM/CMS you also see occasionally, but beyond that, it
seems like most of the G-files were focused on midrange systems ... UNIX,
VMS, MPE, PRIMOS, TOPS and the like. Very little discussion of many of the
mainframe vendors ...

There are a few Youtube videos where I guess people have done presentations
at Defcon or something recently, about mainframe security ... kind of neat
to watch ... of course, the z/OS they show has got all kinds of POSIX stuff
grafted onto it and ... it's fairly indistinguishable from something older
that I would recognize... like MVS 3.8J :O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> >
> > This brings up something that's always baffled me.
> >
> > Why does a user's (or worse, the entire system's) files have to be
> immediately accessible to any application wanting to take a look.
> >
> > Take a legacy example, SCOPE or NOS on a CDC mainframe.  ...
>
> Just remember that those older systems may well have had any number of
> security issues of their own.  They did benefit a lot from "security by
> obscurity" as well as the fact that they weren't connected to the Internet.
>
> I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC operating systems, but
> I still remember a simple hole I found in OS/360, about a month after I
> first wrote a program for that OS.  It allowed anyone to run supervisor
> mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source code. I found it on
> OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate school that it still worked on the
> university's 370 running OS/MVS 21.7.
>
> (The magic?  Use the OS service to give a symbolic name to a location in
> your code, with a well chosen name, then give that name as the name of the
> "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.)
>
>         paul
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 16 14:23:59 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:23:59 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>

And I actually got to play with NOS ... many years after the fact ... never
thought I'd see that! What the cray-cyber.org guys are doing is remarkable.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Cyber systems didn't get much love from the H/P kids back in the day :O
>
> http://phrack.org/issues/18/5.html
>
> That said; NOS is one of the few mainframe systems ever really discussed
> in Phrack... MVS/TSO and VM/CMS you also see occasionally, but beyond that,
> it seems like most of the G-files were focused on midrange systems ...
> UNIX, VMS, MPE, PRIMOS, TOPS and the like. Very little discussion of many
> of the mainframe vendors ...
>
> There are a few Youtube videos where I guess people have done
> presentations at Defcon or something recently, about mainframe security ...
> kind of neat to watch ... of course, the z/OS they show has got all kinds
> of POSIX stuff grafted onto it and ... it's fairly indistinguishable from
> something older that I would recognize... like MVS 3.8J :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > This brings up something that's always baffled me.
>> >
>> > Why does a user's (or worse, the entire system's) files have to be
>> immediately accessible to any application wanting to take a look.
>> >
>> > Take a legacy example, SCOPE or NOS on a CDC mainframe.  ...
>>
>> Just remember that those older systems may well have had any number of
>> security issues of their own.  They did benefit a lot from "security by
>> obscurity" as well as the fact that they weren't connected to the Internet.
>>
>> I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC operating systems, but
>> I still remember a simple hole I found in OS/360, about a month after I
>> first wrote a program for that OS.  It allowed anyone to run supervisor
>> mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source code. I found it on
>> OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate school that it still worked on the
>> university's 370 running OS/MVS 21.7.
>>
>> (The magic?  Use the OS service to give a symbolic name to a location in
>> your code, with a well chosen name, then give that name as the name of the
>> "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.)
>>
>>         paul
>>
>>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 16 16:06:29 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:06:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
Message-ID: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    >> the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units
    >> with cables)

    > In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer.

Well, I did say "in the original ENIAC usage" it had to be configured by
plugging! I was aware of the later conversion.

    > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839

    Crispin Rope, "ENIAC as a Stored-Program Computer: A New Look at the Old
	Records", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 29 No. 4,
	October 2007

Thanks for that pointer. I couldn't get access to that paper (it's behind a
paypal I don't have the ability to pierce - I would be grateful if someone
could send me a copy), but in looking for it online, I did find the very
similar:
    
    Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, Crispin Rope, "Engineering 'The Miracle of
	the ENIAC'", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 36, No. 2,
	April-June 2014

which includes the same author, and is later, so hopefully more definitive.

It's quite interesting: according to that, the conversion of ENIAC to a
'stored program' configuration, after a period of about a year of discussion
and planning, took place starting around March, 1948, and the first problem
was run using it in April, 1948 - and it cites a lot of contemporary
documents to that effect.

(As the article points out, this contradicts the long-and-widely-held
impression, from a statement in Goldstine's book - and if anyone knew, it
should have been him! - that gave the date of that as September, 1948.)

Anyway, the new, earlier date is of course is very shortly before the Baby
ran _its_ first program, in June, 1948. So there is a rather interesting
question as to which 'computer' ran first. I'd always gathered it was the
Baby, but this new data may overturn that.

It is true that the 'program ENIAC' (to invent a term to differentiate that
stage of the machine from the earliest configurations, which used the cabling
method) did not store its program in the same read-write memory as data, as
the Baby did, instead storing it in 'EPROM' (switches). However, I don't
consider that very important; nobody says that a machine running out of PROM
isn't a computer!

The important thing is that it's a program, with things like subroutine calls
from different locations, address modification for data access, etc, and the
'program ENIAC' apparently had all that (see the list at the bottom of page 51
in the article). So it's likely indeed be the 'first computer'.

	Noel

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 17:18:07 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:18:07 +0100
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: 16 September 2015 22:06
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
> operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> 
>     > From: Al Kossow
> 
>     >> the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units
>     >> with cables)
> 
>     > In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer.
> 
> Well, I did say "in the original ENIAC usage" it had to be configured by
> plugging! I was aware of the later conversion.
> 
>     > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839
> 
>     Crispin Rope, "ENIAC as a Stored-Program Computer: A New Look at the
> Old
> 	Records", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 29 No. 4,
> 	October 2007
> 
> Thanks for that pointer. I couldn't get access to that paper (it's behind
a
> paypal I don't have the ability to pierce - I would be grateful if someone
could
> send me a copy), but in looking for it online,

I struggled to get it out of the University Library system.

>  I did find the very
> similar:
> 
>     Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, Crispin Rope, "Engineering 'The Miracle
of
> 	the ENIAC'", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 36, No.
2,
> 	April-June 2014
> 
> which includes the same author, and is later, so hopefully more
definitive.
> 
> It's quite interesting: according to that, the conversion of ENIAC to a
'stored
> program' configuration, after a period of about a year of discussion and
> planning, took place starting around March, 1948, and the first problem
was
> run using it in April, 1948 - and it cites a lot of contemporary documents
to
> that effect.
> 
> (As the article points out, this contradicts the long-and-widely-held
> impression, from a statement in Goldstine's book - and if anyone knew, it
> should have been him! - that gave the date of that as September, 1948.)
> 
> Anyway, the new, earlier date is of course is very shortly before the Baby
ran
> _its_ first program, in June, 1948. So there is a rather interesting
question as
> to which 'computer' ran first. I'd always gathered it was the Baby, but
this
> new data may overturn that.
> 

I believe that its generally accepted that is true. 

> It is true that the 'program ENIAC' (to invent a term to differentiate
that
> stage of the machine from the earliest configurations, which used the
cabling
> method) did not store its program in the same read-write memory as data,
as
> the Baby did, instead storing it in 'EPROM' (switches). However, I don't
> consider that very important; nobody says that a machine running out of
> PROM isn't a computer!

It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
self modifying code.
In the above article Crispin notes that ENIAC was succeeded by the IBM 701
and then omits the fact 
that the 701 used the Williams tubes from the Baby as its main store, so
clearly both machines had a non-significant
influence on early computing. Without Williams and ENIAC there would have
been no IBM701...

> 
> The important thing is that it's a program, with things like subroutine
calls
> from different locations, address modification for data access, etc, and
the
> 'program ENIAC' apparently had all that (see the list at the bottom of
page 51
> in the article). So it's likely indeed be the 'first computer'.
> 
> 	Noel

What is and isn't a computer is always open to debate. The Manchester SSEM
or Baby is I would say the simplest thing that you could call a computer.
I could explain how to program the Baby to almost any one on this list. It
has seven instructions, so in a 32 bit word, a 5 bit address and a 3 bit op
code. 

Crispin Rope concentrates on the power of ENIAC and its usefulness, neither
of which can be argued with, but to me a "computer" without self-modifying
code is a programmable calculator even if it has index registers... 
If you want to rate a computer by the work it did ENIAC was far more useful,
but the SSEM was never intended to be a "Useful" computer. It was a testbed
for the Williams Tube.

... on the other hand whilst both added to our knowledge of computing in the
longer term neither were IMHO especially influential going forward.
Self-Modifying code became the norm, and Williams Tubes were rapidly
superseded by core...

>From what I have seen the UK was slow to move onto Core store, probably
because IBM bought the patents, so whilst the IBM 704 was already using Core
in 1954 the Ferranti Pegasus from 1956 went back to using Nickle Delay Lines
and a Drum for "Main Store" although IMHO the Delay Lines were really main
store, from what I remember all code must be in the delay lines. The LEO
(Lyons Electronic Office) also used Mercury Delay Lines....

Dave Wade




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 16 17:19:18 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:19:18 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>

On 09/16/2015 12:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> And I actually got to play with NOS ... many years after the fact ...
> never thought I'd see that! What the cray-cyber.org guys are doing is
> remarkable.

Sad that they don't have any early software.  In the beginning there was 
COS (Chippewa Operating System), followed by SCOPE (which doesn't really 
describe a specific OS, but more on that later).  On the 6000, both were 
essentially PP-oriented, leaving the CP to do the real work.

MACE was essentially a bootleg product mostly done a night on the Arden 
Hills QA floor by (Dr.) Dave Callender (he of the bats) and Greg 
Mansfield (whom I had the privilege of introducing to the delights of 
gelato--but that's another issue.  Greg wanted a slimmed-down operating 
system for the CE community--hence, the name "Mansfield's Answer to 
Customer Engineering).  Greg, unfortunately, was your basic geek, not 
good with people, but very talented.  Without Dave's promotion, I doubt 
that it would have gotten anywhere.

MACE did make its way into the academic community.  I believe that 
Purdue added and extended it quite a bit.  One aspect is that the OS was 
considerably more CP-involved than SCOPE.  So, for the interactive stuff 
like PLATO, MACE was re-named KRONOS and launched as a separate official 
product.  At the user level, the two were pretty much compatible, but 
internally, they were very different.  For example, SCOPE had a rather 
elaborate disk driver, called 1SP (for "Stack Processor"), which sorted 
and prioritized disk requests based *partly* on the distance that a seek 
to cylinder involved.  KRONOS on the other hand, used a much simpler 
"first-come, first-served" principle.

Mostly, it was a battle of cultures.  SCOPE was maintained out of Palo 
Alto (Porter Drive) and later, Sunnyvale (Moffet Park Drive) and KRONOS 
out of Arden Hills.  Sometime around the advent of the Cyber 70 series, 
management made a non-decision (with 128 vice presidents, how could it 
be otherwise?)  So, KRONOS was re-christened NOS (network operating 
system) and SCOPE became NOS/BE (batch environment).  Eventually, enough 
of the BE aspect was rolled into NOS that only one--NOS survived. 
Besides, CDC was doing their best to get rid of as much staff as they 
could at CDC Sunnyvale.  Certain key people, however, refused to 
transfer, so it took well into the 80s before the last light went out in 
Sunnyvale.

Now, that's about Cyber 70/6000 NOS/SCOPE.   The 7600 was a very 
different beast.  For one, the 7000 PPs didn't run as slots in a 
barrel--they were fully independent.  Secondly, the PPs were 
hard-assigned a buffer region each in SCM--they did not have unfettered 
access to memory.  This meant that the PP-resident aspect of 6000 SCOPE 
(and KRONOS) was unworkable on the 7600.  So, 7000 SCOPE was 
born--mostly, what I saw was SCOPE 2 and SCOPE 2.1.  With the PPs 
dedicated to pretty much nothing but simple I/O, the whole business of 
job control and user interface fell to the CP.  Note that the 7600 had 
very fast SCM, but not much of it, so storage of transient programs was 
left to slower LCM.  The scheme adopted was to have various functions of 
the OS be nested, matryoshka-doll style with the user program in the 
inside.  So outside of the user program, you could have the job 
supervisor, then the record manager, then the buffer manager and so on..

So 7600 SCOPE was nothing like 6000 SCOPE (or NOS).

There were other 6000-series operating systems, not very well known to 
this day.  For example, the ROVER people had their own version of what I 
assume was an early SCOPE--I'm not certain if this has been declassified 
even today, so the less said the better.  There was TCM, Time-Critical 
Monitor which claimed to have a maxiumum average event latency of 100 
nsec  ZODIAC was built on the TCM OS, used lots of ECS in 
multi-mainframe configurations to host "chains" of real-time 
transactions (a bit complex to explain) that essentially operated with 
its own I/O and filesystem.

Life was interesting back then...

By the time you hit the 80s and the CYBER 180, not so much.

--Chuck




From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Sep 16 20:41:38 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:41:38 -0400
Subject: Ransomware [was Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]]
In-Reply-To: <201509161841.OAA18402@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <201509161841.OAA18402@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <55FA1A52.3020308@compsys.to>

 >Mouse wrote:

>>There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts $
>>    
>>
>
>This depends on the backup-taking accessing the files in a way that
>doesn't trip the decryption.
>
>It also depends on nobody test-restoring from the backups, or at least
>not sanity-checking the results if they do.
>
>It also depends on being able to infect the OS and sit there for months
>without anyone noticing.
>
>  
>
>>As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/$
>>    
>>
>
>This depends on the user - perhaps by proxy in the form of something
>the user runs - executing content offered by the malvertising-serving
>server.
>
>Thus, defense in depth:
>
>(1) Don't run things that execute live content without explicit,
>specific approval by the user.  Educate users as to the few cases when
>giving such approval is sane.
>
>(2) Avoid common OSes and ISAs, so that most malware (ransomware or
>otherwise) can't run even if it gets through to the machine.
>
>(3) Test-restore from your backups periodically.
>
>Of course, most people will say they "can't" do one or more of those,
>actually meaning they're not willing to pay the prices involved.  Such
>people need to realize that they will pay one price or the other, and
>they'll just have to decide which prices they prefer.  Personally, I do
>about two and a quarter of the above: (1), 3/4 of (2), and 1/2 of (3).
>
The system which I use to develop programs and produce code
is used only to download e-mail and news groups.  This seems to
have isolated the system to some extent.

As for (3), I don't understand how a test-restore would help.
I don't know if this is relevant, but I shut down my system
every night and boot the C: drive again in the morning.

After booting from DOS using a floppy disk, my backup
consists of using Ghost to make an image copy (compressed)
of all the files on the C: drive to the D: drive which is used
ONLY for that purpose.  Even if the files have been encrypted,
I don't understand how a restore would detect that the files
are being encrypted / decrypted on the fly if a boot every
morning does not notice a problem.

As it happens, once or twice a year when I do need to access
the internet, I first do a backup of my C: drive, access the Internet
to make copies of the files that I want - PDP-11 stuff for RT-11,
obviously.  Then just in case, I do a restore from the backup to
my C: drive.  How would that be any different from just booting
the same C: drive each morning?

Jerome Fine

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Sep 16 20:29:31 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:29:31 -0500
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>

On 09/16/2015 01:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>
> Has cryptolocker ever invaded the world of Unix/Linux/BSD?
>
It would be much harder.  In general, browsers do not 
activate just any file you would download.  There are 
weaknesses in various graphical/video add-ons to browsers 
that may cause vulnerabilities. But, in GENERAL, malware in 
videos, etc. would either do nothing at all when sent to the 
add-on program, or get a message saying something like "this 
script contains macros, executing it could be a security 
risk:  Yes / No"

I've been browsing quite fearlessly with Linux systems for 
about 17 years, and NEVER had any problem.
Now, I've also had a Linux web server up for about 15 years, 
and have had 2 successful penetrations.
One was totally innocuous, they just added a phishing web 
site for a bank, and it was easy to remove.
Another attack put in a root kit, and it caused a major 
mess, including me sending out some infected code to other 
people.  (OOPS, red face!!)  These were both done by 
cracking insecure passwords on my system.  The best defense 
for that is running denyhosts, which counts login failures 
from specific IP addresses, and cuts off all access from 
that IP after a threshold.  I set it very tight, two failed 
attempts within a month and you are out for a year.  It was 
VERY interesting, exactly, to the HOUR, two weeks after I 
set this up, the 1000 per day attempts to break in dropped 
to 3 a day.  This means the botnets actively track how long 
the horizon on the login failures is set, and they've been 
programmed to give up on any node that has a horizon over 2 
weeks.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Sep 16 20:36:39 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:36:39 -0500
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FA1927.4000809@pico-systems.com>

On 09/16/2015 01:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC 
> operating systems, but I still remember a simple hole I 
> found in OS/360, about a month after I first wrote a 
> program for that OS. It allowed anyone to run supervisor 
> mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source 
> code. I found it on OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate 
> school that it still worked on the university's 370 
> running OS/MVS 21.7. (The magic? Use the OS service to 
> give a symbolic name to a location in your code, with a 
> well chosen name, then give that name as the name of the 
> "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.) paul 
Yup, the classic breakin was you set up an exception handler 
with SPIE (specify program  interrupt exit, I think) and 
then do a divide by zero.  This gives the handler the PSW of 
the problem program. You turn the P bit of the PSW off and 
return.  The stock OS would actually ALLOW you to DO this, 
and just return to the user program now in supervisor 
state!  It was a VERY simple fix, you just don't allow any 
exception handler to change the state of the P bit.  But, 
MANY systems did not do that check.

So MANY other weaknesses could easily be caused by 
accident.  Like, the file that contained valid account 
numbers was often not protected.  Anybody could just print 
out that file.

Jon

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 16 21:11:24 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:11:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ransomware [was Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]]
In-Reply-To: <55FA1A52.3020308@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <201509161841.OAA18402@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55FA1A52.3020308@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <201509170211.WAA00811@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Thus, defense in depth:
>> [...]
>> (3) Test-restore from your backups periodically.

> As for (3), I don't understand how a test-restore would help.

The theory is, if the restore restores good contents then the backup
contains good contents.

> Even if the files have been encrypted, I don't understand how a
> restore would detect that the files are being encrypted / decrypted
> on the fly if a boot every morning does not notice a problem.

It wouldn't.  That was to defend against the "the backup contains the
encrypted version" risk - which only some backup mechanisms will suffer
from.  If you use something like tar(1) to make your backups, something
that uses the usual file-access mechanisms to read the files, it will
back up the decrypted-on-the-fly version, which is what you want.  But
if you use something like dump(1) that goes behind the filesystem's
back to read the files, or something like dd(1) that is
filesystem-blind and just backs up the disk's contents, it easily could
end up backing up the on-disk encrypted version (which is what that
kind of ransomware hopes for, of course).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Sep 16 22:25:56 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:25:56 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
> ...
> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
> self modifying code.


Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable function 
(as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self modifying code".

--Toby

> ...
>
> Dave Wade
>
>
>
>


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Sep 16 22:36:53 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:36:53 -0600
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
>> self modifying code.
>
>
> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable function
> (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self modifying code".

I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the program 
ToSolveAnythingBut42
some how so I guess that would count AS Self Modifying Code.
> --Toby

From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Sep 16 22:49:16 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:49:16 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com> <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FA383C.4030705@jwsss.com>

There were / are bugs in the mpg and jpg libraries that allow for remote 
execution that may or may not have been fixed.

If it can screw over cell phones running on Linux, it can screw you over 
if you are running on garden variety Linux.

Since we are all users on an ongoing basis of fossilized non updated 
systems, likely all of your older Linux systems have at least the mpg 
problem, and it is a fun one.  The only thing saving you is that you 
would need to target it at a specific binary target.

thanks
JIm

On 9/16/2015 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/16/2015 01:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>
>>
>> Has cryptolocker ever invaded the world of Unix/Linux/BSD?
>>
> It would be much harder.  In general, browsers do not activate just 
> any file you would download.  There are weaknesses in various 
> graphical/video add-ons to browsers that may cause vulnerabilities. 
> But, in GENERAL, malware in videos, etc. would either do nothing at 
> all when sent to the add-on program, or get a message saying something 
> like "this script contains macros, executing it could be a security 
> risk:  Yes / No"
>
> I've been browsing quite fearlessly with Linux systems for about 17 
> years, and NEVER had any problem.
> Now, I've also had a Linux web server up for about 15 years, and have 
> had 2 successful penetrations.
> One was totally innocuous, they just added a phishing web site for a 
> bank, and it was easy to remove.
> Another attack put in a root kit, and it caused a major mess, 
> including me sending out some infected code to other people. (OOPS, 
> red face!!)  These were both done by cracking insecure passwords on my 
> system.  The best defense for that is running denyhosts, which counts 
> login failures from specific IP addresses, and cuts off all access 
> from that IP after a threshold.  I set it very tight, two failed 
> attempts within a month and you are out for a year.  It was VERY 
> interesting, exactly, to the HOUR, two weeks after I set this up, the 
> 1000 per day attempts to break in dropped to 3 a day.  This means the 
> botnets actively track how long the horizon on the login failures is 
> set, and they've been programmed to give up on any node that has a 
> horizon over 2 weeks.
>
> Jon
>
>


From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Sep 16 22:56:03 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:56:03 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FA1927.4000809@pico-systems.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <55FA1927.4000809@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FA39D3.6040304@jwsss.com>



On 9/16/2015 6:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/16/2015 01:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> I never had any incentive to look for holes in CDC operating systems, 
>> but I still remember a simple hole I found in OS/360, about a month 
>> after I first wrote a program for that OS. It allowed anyone to run 
>> supervisor mode code with a couple dozen lines of assembler source 
>> code. I found it on OS/PCP 19.6, but I noticed in graduate school 
>> that it still worked on the university's 370 running OS/MVS 21.7. 
>> (The magic? Use the OS service to give a symbolic name to a location 
>> in your code, with a well chosen name, then give that name as the 
>> name of the "start I/O appendage" in an EXCP style I/O request.) paul 
> Yup, the classic breakin was you set up an exception handler with SPIE 
> (specify program  interrupt exit, I think) and then do a divide by 
> zero.  This gives the handler the PSW of the problem program. You turn 
> the P bit of the PSW off and return.  The stock OS would actually 
> ALLOW you to DO this, and just return to the user program now in 
> supervisor state!  It was a VERY simple fix, you just don't allow any 
> exception handler to change the state of the P bit.  But, MANY systems 
> did not do that check.
>
The SPIE fix was fixed in MVT 21 which we ran at UMR in my memory before 
I left in 75.  I know of at least three of us who wrote up exploits, 
which stored the PSW to show supervisor state, and let it go at that.  
That was on the UMR 360 / 50

The really fun "trojan" was a console logger that was around which 
watched the MVS VS1 console screen for changes and rendered a scrolling 
rendition of the log on a terminal.  The computer operators at our 
remote site didn't have that working with their remote Hasp workstation, 
only had the entries pertinent to locally submitted jobs.  This was on a 
370 / 158 at University of Missouri, Columbia.

Also there was a password logger which watched all the TSO logins, and 
logged the password and account for every user.  That exploit still 
existed when I left.  The IBM code had an 8 byte double word in which it 
stored a "scrambled" version of the password for use by jobs that needed 
authentication (way before RACF or such) and could verify w/o 
re-prompting a lot for the password.  However when you entered your 
password the first 8 characters, which were all that were used for 
authentication were stored for a few cycles in that same word.

So to get the password, you watched the login state, and as long as the 
process was logged off, the entry was zero.  You would grab the values 
and store the first value that appeared after it went non zero and about 
99% of the time it was the clear text.

Fun times.
> So MANY other weaknesses could easily be caused by accident.  Like, 
> the file that contained valid account numbers was often not 
> protected.  Anybody could just print out that file.
>
> Jon
>
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 02:30:51 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:30:51 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <0a8501d0f11a$c7cb7d70$57627850$@gmail.com>

Crispin states this in the paper and says:-

The proof that actual modification of instructions is required for all
possible problems is contained in C.C. Elgot and A. Robinson,
''Random-Access
Stored-Program Machines, An Approach to Programming Languages,'' J. ACM,
vol. 11, no. 4, 1964, p. 397

I didn't follow up the reference I guess I should.....
... and those of you who are interested in reading about early computing may
enjoy this article about 

"CSIR Mark 1/CSIRAC : Australia's First Computer"

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res67.htm#d

I found it interesting...

Dave Wade

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
> Sent: 17 September 2015 04:37
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
> 
> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> > On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must
> >> permit self modifying code.
> >
> >
> > Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable
> > function (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self
modifying
> code".
> 
> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the program
> ToSolveAnythingBut42
> some how so I guess that would count AS Self Modifying Code.
> > --Toby


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 02:49:21 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:49:21 +0100
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FA383C.4030705@jwsss.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com> <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>
 <55FA383C.4030705@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <0a8e01d0f11d$5df77b30$19e67190$@gmail.com>

I remember my Salesman (well he was the Company Salesman but we worked
together) once recounted an interview he had heard on US Radio...
.. Basically they were interviewing a Bank Robber and they asked him why he
robbed banks when they had armed guards and heavy security..
.. His response was that they also had lots of money. He said he thought it
pointless taking risks robbing the local store when the till might be
empty...

The same goes for the Crypto Lockers. There are plenty of Windows users who
run with un-patched systems and who randomly open attachments and who have
lots of money.
In any medium sized business there will be dependencies on Browser and Java
versions, or on old un-supported software.
We are seeing an increase in attacks on Apple software and their monthly
patch list is not shrinking and from this:-

http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/apple-squashes-serious-security-bug-with-update-
to-mac-os-x/

it appears they are resorting to hacks to close doors never a great
idea.....
.. so if Linux was truly popular I think we might see CryptoLocker attacks.
It doesn't need root access, just access to the data, and so long as it can
infect the users start up scripts it can hide their documents and anything
else they have access to...

"Security" isn't just about secure software, it?s a total mind set. One slip
and you are doomed. I am pretty careful but even I managed to install the
d at mmed Ask tool bar whilst updating Java...
.. in my humble opinion many Linux users are rather more blas? about the
security of the OS that they should be....

Dave Wade
G4UGM


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
> Sent: 17 September 2015 04:49
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
> 
> There were / are bugs in the mpg and jpg libraries that allow for remote
> execution that may or may not have been fixed.
> 
> If it can screw over cell phones running on Linux, it can screw you over
if you
> are running on garden variety Linux.
> 
> Since we are all users on an ongoing basis of fossilized non updated
systems,
> likely all of your older Linux systems have at least the mpg problem, and
it is a
> fun one.  The only thing saving you is that you would need to target it at
a
> specific binary target.
> 
> thanks
> JIm
> 
> On 9/16/2015 6:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 09/16/2015 01:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Has cryptolocker ever invaded the world of Unix/Linux/BSD?
> >>
> > It would be much harder.  In general, browsers do not activate just
> > any file you would download.  There are weaknesses in various
> > graphical/video add-ons to browsers that may cause vulnerabilities.
> > But, in GENERAL, malware in videos, etc. would either do nothing at
> > all when sent to the add-on program, or get a message saying something
> > like "this script contains macros, executing it could be a security
> > risk:  Yes / No"
> >
> > I've been browsing quite fearlessly with Linux systems for about 17
> > years, and NEVER had any problem.
> > Now, I've also had a Linux web server up for about 15 years, and have
> > had 2 successful penetrations.
> > One was totally innocuous, they just added a phishing web site for a
> > bank, and it was easy to remove.
> > Another attack put in a root kit, and it caused a major mess,
> > including me sending out some infected code to other people. (OOPS,
> > red face!!)  These were both done by cracking insecure passwords on my
> > system.  The best defense for that is running denyhosts, which counts
> > login failures from specific IP addresses, and cuts off all access
> > from that IP after a threshold.  I set it very tight, two failed
> > attempts within a month and you are out for a year.  It was VERY
> > interesting, exactly, to the HOUR, two weeks after I set this up, the
> > 1000 per day attempts to break in dropped to 3 a day.  This means the
> > botnets actively track how long the horizon on the login failures is
> > set, and they've been programmed to give up on any node that has a
> > horizon over 2 weeks.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Sep 17 07:39:25 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:39:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
Message-ID: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave Wade

    > Crispin Rope concentrates on the power of ENIAC and its usefulness

Which is why you should look at the longer, later article:

  http://eniacinaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/EngineeringTheMiracleoftheENIAC-scanned.pdf

in particular the part I pointed out (bottom right corner of pg. 51), which
talks about all the things that can be found in that early ENIAC code, e.g.
subroutine calls with storage of return point, etc.

I am far less interested in the comparison with other machines (in that
article) than I am with the enumeration of what the 'program ENIAC' _itself_
could do - which seems to have been quite a lot.

    > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
    > calculator even if it has index registers... 

So a modern Harvard-architecture machine (e.g. AMD29K) with only ROM on the
instruction bus is a programmable calculator? 

It's precisely that hypothetical which leads me to conclude that the fact
that the 'program ENIAC' only had ROM for its code (actually, technically,
that's quite not true - it could execute programs stored on cards, too) is
not that important; I think the thing to look at is what its programs could
contain.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 11:01:43 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:01:43 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>


> On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> 
> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
>>> self modifying code.
>> 
>> 
>> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable function
>> (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self modifying code".
> 
> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the program ToSolveAnythingBut42
> some how so I guess that would count AS Self Modifying Code.

"load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But self-modifying code means a program that modifies its own code during execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been used in history.  You could also apply the term to instructions that store state  in the form of instructions in memory for later use, such as "return jump" in CDC machines.  But I wouldn't apply the term there; that's just a particular mechanism different from, but functionally equivalent, to a return address stack.

In any case, I do not believe the original statement.  First of all, it is well known that no computer can solve "all problems" (see G?del).  For those it *can* solve, as far as I know, a Turing machine can solve a superset of what a stored program computer can handle, and a Turing machine does NOT have self-modifying code.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 11:04:17 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:04:17 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>


> On Sep 16, 2015, at 6:19 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 09/16/2015 12:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>> And I actually got to play with NOS ... many years after the fact ...
>> never thought I'd see that! What the cray-cyber.org guys are doing is
>> remarkable.
> 
> Sad that they don't have any early software.  In the beginning there was COS (Chippewa Operating System), followed by SCOPE (which doesn't really describe a specific OS, but more on that later).  On the 6000, both were essentially PP-oriented, leaving the CP to do the real work.

They may not run those, but those certainly have been preserved as part of the "controlfreaks" effort.  COS, Scope, MACE, Kronos, NOS, NOS/BE -- all those have been run on the DtCyber emulator.  In fact, a copy of a production PLATO system, on NOS 2.8.7, has been on the Internet for a decade now (on DtCyber).

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 17 11:06:04 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 09:06:04 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <0a8e01d0f11d$5df77b30$19e67190$@gmail.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com> <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>
 <55FA383C.4030705@jwsss.com> <0a8e01d0f11d$5df77b30$19e67190$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FAE4EC.5060802@sydex.com>

On 09/17/2015 12:49 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

> "Security" isn't just about secure software, it?s a total mind set.
> One slip and you are doomed. I am pretty careful but even I managed
> to install the d at mmed Ask tool bar whilst updating Java... .. in my
> humble opinion many Linux users are rather more blas? about the
> security of the OS that they should be....

If it's online, it's probably a good policy to assume that it's not 
secure.  If you have information that's critical to your operation, keep 
it offline.

Witness this, something that you would consider to be absolutely secure:

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Computer_Peripherals/Systems/Microsoft_experts_can_crack_encrypted_database_with_this_easy_old_trick.aspx

I'm constantly amazed by the lax security for major corporate and 
government accounts.  Single user name, single password and no limit to 
error retries.  Bloody amazing.

--Chuck


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 11:30:14 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:30:14 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 17 September 2015 17:02
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
> 
> 
> > On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ...
> >>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must
> >>> permit self modifying code.
> >>
> >>
> >> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable
> >> function (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self
> modifying code".
> >
> > I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the
> > program ToSolveAnythingBut42 some how so I guess that would count AS
> Self Modifying Code.
> 
> "load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But self-
> modifying code means a program that modifies its own code during
> execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been used in
history.

I actually think its pretty common, at least on certain machines, especially
for character manipulation. 
There are machines, I think the Honeywell L66 is one, which make character
sting moves interruptible by updating the addresses and lengths as the
instruction is executed.

COBOL includes the ALTER verb which can be implemented as self-modifying
code.
I know when I first started working on Honeywell H3200 code someone modified
a very slow program to use ALTER...
.. and afterwards the program ran many times faster, but of course became
totally un-maintainable.

.. so probably rare but totally un-maintainable...

> You could also apply the term to instructions that store state  in the
form of
> instructions in memory for later use, such as "return jump" in CDC
machines.
> But I wouldn't apply the term there; that's just a particular mechanism
> different from, but functionally equivalent, to a return address stack.
> 
> In any case, I do not believe the original statement.  First of all, it is
well
> known that no computer can solve "all problems" (see G?del).  For those it
> *can* solve, as far as I know, a Turing machine can solve a superset of
what a
> stored program computer can handle, and a Turing machine does NOT have
> self-modifying code.

I took it from Crispin's paper and I assumed it was correct as he has done a
lot of work on this...
.. and I assumed when he said "solve all problems" we were referring to
problems that can be solved on a Turing Complete computer....

> 
> 	paul

Dave



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 17 11:30:21 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 09:30:21 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>

On 09/17/2015 09:04 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> They may not run those, but those certainly have been preserved as
> part of the "controlfreaks" effort.  COS, Scope, MACE, Kronos, NOS,
> NOS/BE -- all those have been run on the DtCyber emulator.  In fact,
> a copy of a production PLATO system, on NOS 2.8.7, has been on the
> Internet for a decade now (on DtCyber).

I'd love to see them run Zodiac...  How far back does their SCOPE 
collection go?  3.1.6 was the standard for several years, then 3.3.  How 
about 7600 SCOPE--do they have a 7600 emulator?

--Chuck





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Sep 17 11:34:05 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:34:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Additional config info for Camintonn CMV-250, CMV-500, CMV-254,
 CMV-504
Message-ID: <20150917163405.1EF6718C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I have a couple of these Camintonn boards (a -500 and a -254, to be
exact), both using 256Kx1 DRAM's. I wanted to upgrade them both (by adding
memory chips) to be -504's (2MB), and I noticed that the -254 had a couple of
jumper wires that the -500 did not, so I needed to know what those jumpers
did. I looked online, and although there is a little bit of info, it doesn't
cover those jumpers.

My first thought was that they might be timing-related; one board used -12
parts, the other -15. However, after some poking around, I think (with 98%
certainty, although I haven't traced etches to be 100.000% certain) that they
actually allow the boards to be used with both 64Kx1 and 256Kx1 memory parts.

I hereby offer up all the details in case anyone's interested:


I found a document which described them as "Starting and ending address
boundary" (alas, without giving any detail, but which confirmed they aren't
timing-related). The clincher as to their function was the capacities of the
various board versions:

 CMV-504 2 MB Memory Module 
 CMV-254 1 MB Memory Module 
 CMV-500 512 KB Memory Module 
 CMV-250 256 KB Memory Module 

How do you get a 256KB board using 256K devices on a memory board that has to
produce 16-bit wide words? Clearly, the board was first produced with 64Kx1
chips, and so it likely (like the similar NS23C) that it can be configured to
use either 64Kx1 or 256Kx1 chips.

Here are the details of how to do that: down near the fingers, there are a
block of 6 solder pads, denoted thus:

  MPR
  NOS

(Note that there is _another_ 'S' on the board, at the top.)

On board #1, the CMV-254, it has jumpers on M-N, P-R (apparently the
configuration for use of 256K chips), and etch cuts on R-S, N-O (likely the
configuration for 64K chips). On board #2, the CMV-500, it has a slightly
different PCB (likely a later rev), and has no jumpers, and has etch
connections M-N, P-R (note - the same as the #1 board has jumpers).

Hope this is useful to someone!


Note that the board was normally sold with 1, 2, or 4 rows of chips.
(Interestingly, there must be two ways to produce a CMV-500 - 1 row of 256K
parts, or 4 rows of 64K parts. I've never seen one of the latter, but would be
interested to know if anyone has.)

I plan to verify that the board actually works OK with _3_ rows of chips (i.e.
as a 1.5M board), with the appropriate settings - will update when I try that.

	Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 17 11:44:11 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:44:11 -0500
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>


>      > From: Dave Wade
>
>    
>
>      > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
>      > calculator even if it has index registers...
>
>
Most modern computer languages run with the executable 
instructions in a "pure code" section, which is set to be 
NOT writeable by the program.  This avoids a LOT of simple 
mistakes and REALLY hard to find program crashes.
This is true of MS, Linux/Unix and the VMS program 
environment that I have used for about 40 years.  I think 
you have to go back to maybe Windows 95 or RT-11 to not have 
that protection.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 17 11:46:20 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:46:20 -0500
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FAE4EC.5060802@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com> <55FA177B.2030606@pico-systems.com>
 <55FA383C.4030705@jwsss.com> <0a8e01d0f11d$5df77b30$19e67190$@gmail.com>
 <55FAE4EC.5060802@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FAEE5C.6050208@pico-systems.com>


> On 09/17/2015 12:49 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>> in my
>> humble opinion many Linux users are rather more blas? 
>> about the
>> security of the OS that they should be....
>
Absolutely true, and I will admit that I have fallen into 
the trap, too.  But, it has worked well so far!

Jon

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 11:47:50 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:47:50 +0100
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <083301d0f168$97a04420$c6e0cc60$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: 17 September 2015 13:39
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
> operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> 
>     > From: Dave Wade
> 
>     > Crispin Rope concentrates on the power of ENIAC and its usefulness
> 
> Which is why you should look at the longer, later article:
> 
>   http://eniacinaction.com/wp-
> content/uploads/2014/02/EngineeringTheMiracleoftheENIAC-scanned.pdf
> 
Thanks Noel, I will have a browse of that...

> in particular the part I pointed out (bottom right corner of pg. 51),
which talks
> about all the things that can be found in that early ENIAC code, e.g.
> subroutine calls with storage of return point, etc.
> 
> I am far less interested in the comparison with other machines (in that
> article) than I am with the enumeration of what the 'program ENIAC'
_itself_
> could do - which seems to have been quite a lot.
> 
>     > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
>     > calculator even if it has index registers...
> 
> So a modern Harvard-architecture machine (e.g. AMD29K) with only ROM on
> the instruction bus is a programmable calculator?

AMD29K isn't "Modern", but when used like that it's a programmable
calculator, a very sophisticated one yes......
... If you have to use another external mechanism to arbitrarily change the
program, then it's a calculator.....
.. So a PIC chip for example..... 

Where It gets grey is that a Turing machine gets round this by assuming the
tape has infinite length. 
I think  (but am not sure) is that in effect whilst you can't have self
modifying code you have enough storage for all possible programs...

> 
> It's precisely that hypothetical which leads me to conclude that the fact
that
> the 'program ENIAC' only had ROM for its code (actually, technically,
that's
> quite not true - it could execute programs stored on cards, too) is not
that
> important; I think the thing to look at is what its programs could contain

I think the important things end up being hypothetical, Its more WHY was it
designed so its programs COULD contain what they could contain..

> 
> 	Noel

Dave


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 11:58:18 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:58:18 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
 <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 09/17/2015 09:04 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> They may not run those, but those certainly have been preserved as
>> part of the "controlfreaks" effort.  COS, Scope, MACE, Kronos, NOS,
>> NOS/BE -- all those have been run on the DtCyber emulator.  In fact,
>> a copy of a production PLATO system, on NOS 2.8.7, has been on the
>> Internet for a decade now (on DtCyber).
> 
> I'd love to see them run Zodiac...  How far back does their SCOPE collection go?  3.1.6 was the standard for several years, then 3.3.  How about 7600 SCOPE--do they have a 7600 emulator?

It turns out my memory was faulty.  I remember discussions about SCOPE, but I don't actually see a copy.  There's COS, SMM 4.0, Kronos 1.0 and 2.1.2, lots of NOS from 1.2 through 2.8.7 and about 8 in between, NOS/BE 1.2 and 1.5.

No 64 bit, no 7600 -- DtCyber doesn't support either of these.  But DtCyber is open source, if you feel enterprising you could do that work, I'm sure you'll get cheers if you do!

	paul


From andy.holt at tesco.net  Thu Sep 17 12:03:30 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:03:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

>>>>
I took it from Crispin's paper and I assumed it was correct as he has done a
lot of work on this...
.. and I assumed when he said "solve all problems" we were referring to
problems that can be solved on a Turing Complete computer....
<<<<

It is easy to prove that a computer does not need the ability to run self-modifying code*:

Assume the contrary
Write a emulator running on a non-self-modifying machine for the machine that has self-modifying code
  (does anyone think that this is not possible? Mathematically - if not practically - this is trivial)
Then the emulated machine can solve the problem and thus the machine running the emulator can.

(there are some loose ends to tidy up to make this a formal proof but none of them are game-changers.)

* Obviously (!) to load a program into memory for execution is, in a sense, self-modification. However I 
don't think that is what you mean.

Early 3rd generation machines had special instructions to finagle their way around self-modifying code: 
 The/360 had EX
 The 1900 had OBEY 
 The GE6xx had a rather fancy variation but I forget what it was called.

However it was soon discovered that these were almost as dangerous as self-modifying code, not actually necessary. 
Also with the introduction of re-entrant code (and paging) self-modifying became /really bad/ (tm)

Andy

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 17 12:20:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:20:23 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
 <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
 <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FAF657.4070407@sydex.com>

On 09/17/2015 09:58 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> It turns out my memory was faulty.  I remember discussions about
> SCOPE, but I don't actually see a copy.  There's COS, SMM 4.0, Kronos
> 1.0 and 2.1.2, lots of NOS from 1.2 through 2.8.7 and about 8 in
> between, NOS/BE 1.2 and 1.5.
>
> No 64 bit, no 7600 -- DtCyber doesn't support either of these.  But
> DtCyber is open source, if you feel enterprising you could do that
> work, I'm sure you'll get cheers if you do!

CRM/6RM was a direct offshoot of the 7600 SCOPE effort.

The 7600 wouldn't be too difficult.  What I'd like to see is a STAR-100 
emulator, but that would be a very big job--and then, I don't know if 
any software is still available.  Maybe buried in a vault at Lawrence 
Livermore or NASA Langley.  Or maybe someone who kept old archives from 
ETA might have something.

Few CDCers of the time even knew that the STAR-100 existed.  I remember 
that when the initial software design briefings for the Cyber 180 were 
given that the guy describing the paging software hadn't been aware of 
the STAR doing this since 1969 or thereabouts.  I did get up and tell 
him that we'd had more experience with 64-bit paging algorithms than 
anyone else in the company and that it would behoove him to pay us a visit.

I don't think he ever did.  CDC was full of the NIH syndrome.

--Chuck


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Sep 17 12:29:34 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:29:34 -0400
Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early
 microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-17 12:44 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>>      > From: Dave Wade
>>
>>
>>      > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
>>      > calculator even if it has index registers...
>>
>>
> Most modern computer languages run with the executable instructions in a
> "pure code" section, which is set to be NOT writeable by the program.
> This avoids a LOT of simple mistakes and REALLY hard to find program
> crashes.
> This is true of MS, Linux/Unix and the VMS program environment that I
> have used for about 40 years.  I think you have to go back to maybe
> Windows 95 or RT-11 to not have that protection.

Modern languages extend this "protection" further, to the programmer 
model, with immutable bindings and data structures, shunning variables 
entirely.

--Toby

>
> Jon
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 12:33:18 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:33:18 +0100
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <089601d0f16e$f1bb39a0$d531ace0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
> Sent: 17 September 2015 17:44
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
> operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> 
> 
> >      > From: Dave Wade
> >
> >
> >
> >      > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
> >      > calculator even if it has index registers...
> >
> >
> Most modern computer languages run with the executable instructions in a
> "pure code" section, which is set to be NOT writeable by the program.
This
> avoids a LOT of simple mistakes and REALLY hard to find program crashes.
> This is true of MS, Linux/Unix and the VMS program environment that I have
> used for about 40 years.  I think you have to go back to maybe Windows 95
or
> RT-11 to not have that protection.

Windows/ME was the last program not to have that protection, but it is just
that, protection. At certain points in the execution process masks are set
to prevent programs from modifying themselves, at a macro level the system
has the capability to modify instructions, in the general case if the system
is considered a program, then it applies protections to prevent subsets of
code doing this....

> 
> Jon


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 17 12:33:25 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:33:25 -0700
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
 <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
 <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FAF965.6030406@bitsavers.org>

On 9/17/15 9:58 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> DtCyber is open source

but their OS collection is not.
they're called "controlfreaks" for a reason.





From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 12:33:38 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:33:38 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FAF657.4070407@sydex.com>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
 <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
 <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
 <55FAF657.4070407@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <6EAC2655-79D7-41CF-A727-38EC9C5133DB@comcast.net>

Chuck,

It sounds like you might enjoy the Controlfreaks group.   It's controlled access but basically you just need to ask.  http://www.controlfreaks.org has a pointer.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 12:43:57 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:43:57 -0400
Subject: Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55FAF965.6030406@bitsavers.org>
References: <004801d0f07c$fc752150$f55f63f0$@classiccmp.org>
 <55F99B0D.7050209@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161026300.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <55F9B0AA.9050804@sydex.com>
 <24CBDEA0-BD9E-4FDB-901B-6832FC374514@comcast.net>
 <CAA43vkWjZ2b5oqnEr60CxeK4ZBy+Lgi+sEnFSmyHAaBcCo+3+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXr5TWehR8uoYEzaRM4c3nSaqYOQVXW_5juVrDt4d8VJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55F9EAE6.1080709@sydex.com>
 <325040DB-583F-4E81-83BF-9AFC48F2C4B7@comcast.net>
 <55FAEA9D.2000501@sydex.com>
 <EDCB3B4F-B3E0-4637-A8F3-52887A068A43@comcast.net>
 <55FAF965.6030406@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CA8852FD-BAA0-461F-8640-071875BB3B83@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> 
> On 9/17/15 9:58 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>> DtCyber is open source
> 
> but their OS collection is not.
> they're called "controlfreaks" for a reason.

Yes, because they like Control Data products.  

From what I understand, COS is in fact generally available because it's in the public domain.  

The other OSs are not; they are distributed by permission of their owners.  At the moment, those permissions do not extend to making them available to the whole world.  The keepers of the archive of course honor the restrictions imposed by the owners.

In that respect, the situation is not significantly different from, say, that of VMS.  VMS is released under a hobbyist license, which is available by request.  Controlfreaks is a mechanism for making software available on a similar basis and is also available by request.

	paul



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 17 12:51:54 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:51:54 +0000
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4AC7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Crispin Rope concentrates on the power of ENIAC and its usefulness, neither
> of which can be argued with, but to me a "computer" without self-modifying
> code is a programmable calculator even if it has index registers...

As a total thread-drift, I have in my hand a machine that anyone would class as a
a programmable calculator. It looks like a calcualtor, it has key-per-function operation
(that is, a 'SIN' key, etc). And yet...

Using totally documented instructions you can create a string containing the
text of a program. You can then convert that string _into_ a program. And 
execute said program (as a subroutine of the program you are running that
created the string and converted it to a program, in general). If that's not
self-modifying code, I don't know what is...

I refer of course to the excellent HP RPL machines.

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 17 13:14:01 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:14:01 -0700
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4AC7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4AC7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FB02E9.5000506@sydex.com>

On 09/17/2015 10:51 AM, tony duell wrote:

> As a total thread-drift, I have in my hand a machine that anyone
> would class as a a programmable calculator. It looks like a
> calcualtor, it has key-per-function operation (that is, a 'SIN' key,
> etc). And yet...


Back in the day, a friend who worked for Lockheed on a top-secret 
government project faced a problem.  Posessions were searched upon 
reporting to the site and upon exit.  Things such as cameras, notebooks 
and tape recorders were confiscated.  He essentially had to do his work 
in a screened vault.

So he began bringing his HP 41C to work with him.  As calculators 
weren't on the proscribed list, not an eyebrow was raised.  It was only 
logical that an engineer needed a calculator.  So he smuggled his data 
in and out using the memory of the 41C.

--Chuck

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 17 13:56:45 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:56:45 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>,
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>

What is the definition of self modifying?
Is it changing an instruction to execute in the thread to be run?
How about adding or subtracting something to be done in an execution
queue?
I'm not sure there is a lot of difference.
In the first case, one might leave the instruction for a later execution
and do the wrong thing.
One could do the same kind of thing in the second case and still
cause problems.
Dwight



 		 	   		  

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Sep 17 14:19:25 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:19:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
Message-ID: <20150917191925.E38FB18C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From Dave 

    > AMD29K isn't "Modern"

Well, compared to the ENIAC it is! :-)

To be serious, the 29K is fully what we now think of as a 'computer'; that's
all I meant by saying it's "modern".

    > If you have to use another external mechanism to arbitrarily change the
    > program, then it's a calculator.....

Alas, if you hold to that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree,
because to me, a 29K with only ROM on the I-bus is clearly a 'computer'.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 14:27:43 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:27:43 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 2:56 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What is the definition of self modifying?
> Is it changing an instruction to execute in the thread to be run?
> How about adding or subtracting something to be done in an execution
> queue?

I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed to definition.

It also matters why the question is asked.  I can think of a couple of answers:

1. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change.

2. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change during execution of the program.

3. individual instructions in a program are changed by the execution of that program.

4. individual instructions in a program are changed by explicit data manipulation actions of that program.

#1 is true for most computers past and present, because they allow a program to be loaded into memory from external storage.

#2 is true in any program that uses overlays, or if the program is controlled by a debugger that uses "software breakpoints".

#3 is true for some older ISAs where subroutine call writes a return address or jump back to the caller into the program address space.  Examples are CDC 6000 systems (CPU and PPU).

#4 is perhaps the best definition to capture the particular programming style that was once common and is now quite rare (though not quite extinct).  It might be as simple as modifying the address field of an opcode, to do indexing when the ISA does not have indexing instructions or registers.  Or it might be something trickier, where a function does one of two similar things depending on an argument passed in, which then causes the body of the function to be modified in the prologue.

There's a bizarre variant of #3 seen in the Electrologica EL-X1, where there is an addressing mode ("C") that adds the B-register contents to the base address that's in the opcode, but then writes the resulting address back into the instruction.  (So doing repeated C mode operations with B == 1 will walk through consecutive addresses in memory, leaving the code pointing at the first word after the end of the buffer referenced.)  Needless to say, this makes no sense, was probably in practice rarely if ever used, and disappeared in the successor to that machine (the EL-X8 -- where the same opcode encoding was used for stack addressing, with B incremented or decremented to produce the standard stack access patterns).  See Dijkstra's Ph.D. thesis for details.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 14:37:05 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:37:05 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BE019A58-2949-4DB5-AA9C-198091151ABB@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 3:27 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 2:56 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> What is the definition of self modifying?
>> Is it changing an instruction to execute in the thread to be run?
>> How about adding or subtracting something to be done in an execution
>> queue?
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed to definition.
> 
> It also matters why the question is asked.  I can think of a couple of answers:

I meant to explain that point on "why".  Self modifying by definition #1 matters if you're looking at I-cache management, but address space ID numbers may take care of things.  For #2, you're probably going to be doing explicit I-cache invalidation.

For #3 and #4  (which are subsets of #2) the same would be true if they were in current use, but they generally aren't.

	paul



From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 14:57:08 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:57:08 -0600
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQBNHEV5i376SertD=+bpB1oUn_+LVNHcX7RZv0y6Sh0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
> self modifying code.

>From a theory of computation view, I don't believe that's true.  Any
computable function can be computed by a fixed program.

For a particular computable function, there may be a more efficient
implementation using self-modifying code.

On the other hand, computing a particular computable function may
require an arbitrariy amount of recursion, so it may take an
arbitrarily amount of writable memory.  The recusion may, of course,
be implemented as some equivalent that doesn't require the computer to
have explicit subroutine calls or stack, but the memory may still be
required.

From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de  Thu Sep 17 06:59:43 2015
From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:59:43 +0000
Subject: HP 2225A HP-IB Thinkjet Parts wanted (in Europe)
Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437304E0934@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>

Hello,

in order to repair a HP-IL device I am looking for remains of HP-IB (yes) Thinkjet Printers.
I only need the PCB resp. the HP-IL chip on the PCB for desoldering and implanting into another PCB.
The mechanics can be damaged or even missing.

Martin

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 17 15:18:00 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 20:18:00 +0000
Subject: HP 2225A HP-IB Thinkjet Parts wanted (in Europe)
In-Reply-To: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437304E0934@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
References: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437304E0934@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4BC8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Hello,
> 
> in order to repair a HP-IL device I am looking for remains of HP-IB (yes) Thinkjet Printers.

On the grounds that the HPIB Thinkjet is an HPIL one with an HPIB-HPIL interface (basically
an 82169 with different firmware)? 

> I only need the PCB resp. the HP-IL chip on the PCB for desoldering and implanting into another PCB.
> The mechanics can be damaged or even missing.

Are you _really_ looking for just the 1LB3 HPIL chip (with the 8 bit processor bus interface)? I may
well have a spare one of those...

-tony

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 17 15:58:55 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 20:58:55 +0000
Subject: Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509111557060.1235@deltasoft.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD12C5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <55F34B18.9090203@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509111557060.1235@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4D57@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: geneb
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 3:58 PM

> This discussion reminds me of this quote:

> "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that 
> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; 
> on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat 
> them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary."

Ah, yes, James Nicoll.  I was a regular reader (and occasional contributor)
to rec.arts.sf-lovers when he wrote that (15 May 1990).  It was, amusingly
enough, part of an off-topic subthread that started with a post entitled
"Drugs in SF" started on 3 May 1990!

(The long thread is a great read.  Plug "43945 at iuvax.cs.indiana.edu" into
 the advanced search box of Google Groups to resurrect it.)

Imagine that, thread drift...

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 17 16:09:44 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:09:44 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FB2C18.1030903@sydex.com>

> On Sep 17, 2015, at 2:56 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is the definition of self modifying? Is it changing an
> instruction to execute in the thread to be run? How about adding or
> subtracting something to be done in an execution queue?

What he said.  In the narrow viewpoint, "self-modifying" could be 
construed as "altering the order of instruction execution based on 
computational results "

I'm sure that there are those who would consider the "Execute" 
instruction on the S/360 machine (and lots of others) to be 
self-modifying code.

Others would consider only those cases where executed code is actually 
modified actively (e.g. doing I/O to a variable port number on an 8080. 
   The 8080 has only two I/O instructions (IN and OUT); both take an 
immediate (literal) operand).

The difference between the three cases, is, to my mind inconsequential.

--Chuck





From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 17 16:31:19 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:31:19 -0700
Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of
 early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>, <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W131FA7998E01E029CF01F71A35A0@phx.gbl>



> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:29:34 -0400
> From: toby at telegraphics.com.au
> To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org; General at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> 
> On 2015-09-17 12:44 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >
> >>      > From: Dave Wade
> >>
> >>
> >>      > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
> >>      > calculator even if it has index registers...
> >>
> >>
> > Most modern computer languages run with the executable instructions in a
> > "pure code" section, which is set to be NOT writeable by the program.
> > This avoids a LOT of simple mistakes and REALLY hard to find program
> > crashes.
> > This is true of MS, Linux/Unix and the VMS program environment that I
> > have used for about 40 years.  I think you have to go back to maybe
> > Windows 95 or RT-11 to not have that protection.
> 
> Modern languages extend this "protection" further, to the programmer 
> model, with immutable bindings and data structures, shunning variables 
> entirely.
> 
> --Toby
> 
> >
> > Jon
> >
> 

If working on a newer X86 processor, this is necessary, not to protect the
code but because the code is cashed and my not be updated in time for
it to be executed.
Write through is expensive and only provided on the data side, if at all.
Dwight

 		 	   		  

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 17 16:38:32 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:38:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of
 early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W131FA7998E01E029CF01F71A35A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com>, <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>
 <BLU168-W131FA7998E01E029CF01F71A35A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509171436200.4193@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 17 Sep 2015, dwight wrote:
> If working on a newer X86 processor, this is necessary, not to protect the
> code but because the code is cashed and my not be updated in time for
> it to be executed.
> Write through is expensive and only provided on the data side, if at all.
> Dwight

On some/most older X86 real mode, a JMP $+2 would flush the prefetch 
buffer, and make possible some simple self-modifying code (such as 
changing the second byte of an INT instruction)

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 17 16:42:15 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:42:15 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB2C18.1030903@sydex.com>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>,
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>,
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>,
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>,
 <55FB2C18.1030903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W26CAEF866FB9E4697F1DB0A35A0@phx.gbl>

I am quite aware of the caching problem.
What I don't understand is what problem they thought they
were fixing by outlawing self modifying code.
It exist in so many forms that are not as obvious.
All of which can have the same potential problems.

The note about 8080 I/O's brought back memories
of pushing the I/O instruction on the stack with a return.
I don't recall where I saw this but recall seeing it.
Dwight

 		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 17 16:44:38 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:44:38 -0700
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQBNHEV5i376SertD=+bpB1oUn_+LVNHcX7RZv0y6Sh0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>,
 <CAFrGgTQBNHEV5i376SertD=+bpB1oUn_+LVNHcX7RZv0y6Sh0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W166FA6A9E4E4B743702B3CA35A0@phx.gbl>



> From: spacewar at gmail.com
> 
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
> > self modifying code.
> 
> From a theory of computation view, I don't believe that's true.  Any
> computable function can be computed by a fixed program.
> 
> For a particular computable function, there may be a more efficient
> implementation using self-modifying code.
> 
> On the other hand, computing a particular computable function may
> require an arbitrariy amount of recursion, so it may take an
> arbitrarily amount of writable memory.  The recusion may, of course,
> be implemented as some equivalent that doesn't require the computer to
> have explicit subroutine calls or stack, but the memory may still be
> required.

That may be true for computing but I'm not sure if it is practical
for real time control of complex systems.
Dwight

 		 	   		  

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 17 16:52:52 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:52:52 -0500
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FB3634.7060208@charter.net>

On 9/17/2015 2:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 2:56 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is the definition of self modifying?
>> Is it changing an instruction to execute in the thread to be run?
>> How about adding or subtracting something to be done in an execution
>> queue?
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed to definition.
> 
> It also matters why the question is asked.  I can think of a couple of answers:
> 
> 1. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change.
> 
> 2. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change during execution of the program.
> 
> 3. individual instructions in a program are changed by the execution of that program.
> 
> 4. individual instructions in a program are changed by explicit data manipulation actions of that program.
> 
> #1 is true for most computers past and present, because they allow a program to be loaded into memory from external storage.
> 
> #2 is true in any program that uses overlays, or if the program is controlled by a debugger that uses "software breakpoints".

Don't / didn't some machines do/did this by setting an address trap
register rather than modifying the breakpointed instruction?

Also, if the machine had explicit handling of overlays/segments, then
that part of this becomes identical to #1.  (Burroughs?)

> 
> #3 is true for some older ISAs where subroutine call writes a return address or jump back to the caller into the program address space.  Examples are CDC 6000 systems (CPU and PPU).
> 
> #4 is perhaps the best definition to capture the particular programming style that was once common and is now quite rare (though not quite extinct).  It might be as simple as modifying the address field of an opcode, to do indexing when the ISA does not have indexing instructions or registers.  Or it might be something trickier, where a function does one of two similar things depending on an argument passed in, which then causes the body of the function to be modified in the prologue.
> 
> There's a bizarre variant of #3 seen in the Electrologica EL-X1, where there is an addressing mode ("C") that adds the B-register contents to the base address that's in the opcode, but then writes the resulting address back into the instruction.  (So doing repeated C mode operations with B == 1 will walk through consecutive addresses in memory, leaving the code pointing at the first word after the end of the buffer referenced.)  Needless to say, this makes no sense, was probably in practice rarely if ever used, and disappeared in the successor to that machine (the EL-X8 -- where the same opcode encoding was used for stack addressing, with B incremented or decremented to produce the standard stack access patterns).  See Dijkstra's Ph.D. thesis for details.
> 
> 	paul
> 


From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Sep 17 18:12:09 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 01:12:09 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FB48C9.1080404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-17 18:30, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>> Koning
>> Sent: 17 September 2015 17:02
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must
>>>>> permit self modifying code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable
>>>> function (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self
>> modifying code".
>>>
>>> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the
>>> program ToSolveAnythingBut42 some how so I guess that would count AS
>> Self Modifying Code.
>>
>> "load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But self-
>> modifying code means a program that modifies its own code during
>> execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been used in
> history.
>
> I actually think its pretty common, at least on certain machines, especially
> for character manipulation.
> There are machines, I think the Honeywell L66 is one, which make character
> sting moves interruptible by updating the addresses and lengths as the
> instruction is executed.

Say what? So if you run through the code/function twice, it won't work?
That would be pretty ugly.

I know architectures like the VAX keeps such state in registers. So 
there are some instructions that destroy some register content. Not that 
fun perhaps, but at least it means the code works if you run it several 
times, or even if you run it as reentrant code.

As far as self-modifying code though, on some architectures it is more 
or less necessary. The PDP-8 for example cannot really work without 
self-modifying code. (Except in some limited scope.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Sep 17 18:17:28 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 01:17:28 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FB4A08.4000101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-17 18:01, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
>>>> self modifying code.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable function
>>> (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self modifying code".
>>
>> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the program ToSolveAnythingBut42
>> some how so I guess that would count AS Self Modifying Code.
>
> "load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But self-modifying code means a program that modifies its own code during execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been used in history.  You could also apply the term to instructions that store state  in the form of instructions in memory for later use, such as "return jump" in CDC machines.  But I wouldn't apply the term there; that's just a particular mechanism different from, but functionally equivalent, to a return address stack.

Well, "rare" is a strong claim. I know of this rather popular machine 
from DEC, the PDP-8, on which you have self-modifying code all over the 
place. :-)
And I'm not talking about the fact that the return address is stored in 
the first word of the function. I agree that this is not really 
self-modifying code at all. But any time you have multiple fields in a 
PDP-8, and you call a function in one field from another, the only way 
to know where to return to is by having the data field contain the field 
of the caller. And then the called function needs to change back to the 
callers field before doing a return. And the change field instruction is 
an instruction where the field is a part of the opcode, so the called 
function needs to read out the data field, create a change instruction 
field instruction, include the target field, and write this instruction 
into itself right before the return instruction.

And there are plenty of other examples of self-modifying code on the 
PDP-8, but all the others I can think of becomes way more complex to 
explain. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 17 18:17:53 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 23:17:53 +0000
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 12:48 AM

> On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
> 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system.

So the PDP-6 monitor, which booted from DECtape but had no other dependency
on that medium, was not an operating system?  It provided multiple timeshared
jobs, so was not a single-program system.

TOS/360 was not an operating system?

Do only disk-oriented operating systems deserve that sobriquet?

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 18:29:06 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 00:29:06 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB48C9.1080404@update.uu.se>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com> <55FB48C9.1080404@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <000701d0f1a0$a65dc950$f3195bf0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
> Billquist
> Sent: 18 September 2015 00:12
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
> 
> On 2015-09-17 18:30, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> >> Koning
> >> Sent: 17 September 2015 17:02
> >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC
> >> programming
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must
> >>>>> permit self modifying code.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable
> >>>> function (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self
> >> modifying code".
> >>>
> >>> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the
> >>> program ToSolveAnythingBut42 some how so I guess that would count
> AS
> >> Self Modifying Code.
> >>
> >> "load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But
> >> self- modifying code means a program that modifies its own code
> >> during execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been
> >> used in
> > history.
> >
> > I actually think its pretty common, at least on certain machines,
> > especially for character manipulation.
> > There are machines, I think the Honeywell L66 is one, which make
> > character sting moves interruptible by updating the addresses and
> > lengths as the instruction is executed.
> 
> Say what? So if you run through the code/function twice, it won't work?
> That would be pretty ugly.
> 

I never said self-modifying code was petty.....

> I know architectures like the VAX keeps such state in registers. So there are
> some instructions that destroy some register content. Not that fun perhaps,
> but at least it means the code works if you run it several times, or even if you
> run it as reentrant code.
> 

The Honeywell code could not be run several times. I don't remember the exact details. I think it may have been indirect addressing rather than modifying the instruction, but because the indirect address was updated as the instruction executed, the system could just restart the instruction when an interrupt occurred. This was all a fiddle because the H600/6000/L66 was a word machine and the index registers could only address word boundaries. When you wanted to move character strings (and on the older machines you got 6  x 6-bit characters per 36-bit word, later machines also had 4 x 9-bit characters, which were really 8-bit characters). By using an indirect address, called a tally word you had all 36-bits and so could address characters within words. Truly arcane.  

> As far as self-modifying code though, on some architectures it is more or less
> necessary. The PDP-8 for example cannot really work without self-modifying
> code. (Except in some limited scope.)
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Sep 17 18:42:05 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 01:42:05 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <000701d0f1a0$a65dc950$f3195bf0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com> <55FB48C9.1080404@update.uu.se>
 <000701d0f1a0$a65dc950$f3195bf0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FB4FCD.2030302@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-18 01:29, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
>> Billquist
>> Sent: 18 September 2015 00:12
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
>>
>> On 2015-09-17 18:30, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>>>> Koning
>>>> Sent: 17 September 2015 17:02
>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC
>>>> programming
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 11:36 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/16/2015 9:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-09-16 6:18 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must
>>>>>>> permit self modifying code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that true? AFAIK Lambda calculus can describe any computable
>>>>>> function (as can a Turing machine), and it has no concept of "self
>>>> modifying code".
>>>>>
>>>>> I never studied any of that, but you do have to LOAD and RUN the
>>>>> program ToSolveAnythingBut42 some how so I guess that would count
>> AS
>>>> Self Modifying Code.
>>>>
>>>> "load" is an operation in a RAM stored program computer, sure.  But
>>>> self- modifying code means a program that modifies its own code
>>>> during execution.  That is a scheme that has on rare occasions been
>>>> used in
>>> history.
>>>
>>> I actually think its pretty common, at least on certain machines,
>>> especially for character manipulation.
>>> There are machines, I think the Honeywell L66 is one, which make
>>> character sting moves interruptible by updating the addresses and
>>> lengths as the instruction is executed.
>>
>> Say what? So if you run through the code/function twice, it won't work?
>> That would be pretty ugly.
>>
>
> I never said self-modifying code was petty.....

True. But while I have worked a lot on machines where you did it, and I 
have written more than my fair share of self-modifying code, I have not 
before seen a machine where the code would get modified behind your back.

Oh well. I guess I should be happen I never had to deal with that 
architecture. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 17 18:49:59 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 23:49:59 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Paul Koning
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:02 AM

> In any case, I do not believe the original statement.  First of all, it is
> well known that no computer can solve "all problems" (see G?del).  For those
> it *can* solve, as far as I know, a Turing machine can solve a superset of
> what a stored program computer can handle,

All right so far.

> and a Turing machine does NOT have self-modifying code.

<choke><spit><soda on keyboard>

Excuse me????

A Turing machine is the very essence of self-modifying code, by its very
definition!  You have the infinite memory tape, divided into cells, a reader,
and a writer.  The reader looks at a cell and performs the action required by
the symbol read there.  Possible actions include erasing the symbol already
present and writing a new symbol; once that is done, the reader looks at the
new symbol and performs the action required by *that* symbol.

Lather, rinse, repeat.  (Interrupt when out of shampoo.)

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From sellam at vintagetech.com  Thu Sep 17 16:32:35 2015
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Paging Wayne Smith
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509171432140.27808@vintagetech.com>


Wayne, if you see this please contact me ASAP.

Thanks.

--

Sellam ibn Abraham                                                 VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From sellam at vintagetech.com  Thu Sep 17 16:36:06 2015
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 14:36:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Canon Cat for sale
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509171432360.27808@vintagetech.com>


I have a Canon Cat in terrific shape for sale.  It works just fine.  The 
screen is bright and clean.  It also comes with the Canon Cat printer.

See photos here:

http://vintagetech.com/sales/Canon%20Cat/

More information available upon request.

Asking $1,400 or best offer.

Thanks.

--

Sellam ibn Abraham                                                 VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Sep 17 19:45:43 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 20:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W26CAEF866FB9E4697F1DB0A35A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201509180045.UAA04157@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> What I don't understand is what problem they thought they were fixing
> by outlawing self modifying code.

As the discussion illustrates, and as I point out below, in some of the
weaker senses it's still alive and well, not outlawed at all.

In the usual sense, approximately "code which writes memory and then
executes it as machine code during the same program run"?  That's what
I'm going to treat the term as meaning in the rest of this mail; in
particular, I am not even trying to discuss things, like Turing
machines, that aren't relatively conventional von Neumann or modified
Harvard machines, executing relatively conventional machine languages
out of relatively conventional memory.  That said, then, I see there
being basically three kinds of systems:

(1) Such code works just fine, and in some cases is necessary to do
     certain useful operations.

(2) Such code is not really supported, but might work if you happen to
     be lucky (or unlucky, if you prefer to think of it that way).

(3) Such code will crash unless it takes special precautions, such as a
     syscall to re-protect the relevant memory.

Type (1) machines are the oldest, including things like the 8080 whose
I/O instructions were cited upthread.

Then in came things like pipelined CPUs and instruction prefetch, and
separate instruction and data caches, leading to hardware that did (2).
The usual justification for breaking the then-traditional programming
model this way is "performance" - such machines generally run
significantly faster than type (1) hardware.  In some cases there
was/is support for flushing/invalidating caches, purging execution
pipelines, and the like, making it possible to still write
self-modifying code if you're careful.  (As an amusing example in this
connection, the VAX architecture reference manual points out the need
to purge prefetch buffers and such after writing memory and before
executing it - but also says that code running in PDP-11 compatibility
mode (on hardware that has it, of course) does not need to take any
such precautions.)

Then along came networks and the September than never ended and
suddenly it's the rare machine that isn't facing a hostile environment.
This led to things like hardware supporting W^X, giving us type (3),
which is mostly where we are now[%].  On such hardware, self-modifying
code still exists, even in the sense I'm using here (consider the
patchups involved in loading dynamic libraries on a modern system), but
it requires significant assistance from the kernel - or, more
precisely, from code that has the ability to fiddle with the memory
protection hardware, which generally means the OS kernel.  (Such code
inherently owns the machine if it wants to; it's one of the few pieces
of an OS that _has_ to be highly trusted.)

[%] Okay, on this list perhaps "we" is the wrong word here.  Where most
    of the computer world is now, then, perhaps.

So, the answer is threefold.  First, they haven't really; even today
you can do self-modifying code on most hardware/OS combinations if you
make the right syscalls to re-protect the relevant memory, purge
prefetch buffers, and the like.  Second, the older problem they were
fixing (to the extent that "they", and the problem, exist) is "poor
performance".  And finally, most recently, the problem is security
against certain depressingly large classes of attacks on buggy
software, like smash-the-stack buffer overruns.  (It doesn't stop them
all, of course, but it makes them harder.)

And, finally, in passing, could whoever's using the software
responsible for syntax errors like the

> References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>,
>  <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root at md02.topaz.synacor.com>,
>  <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0 at phx.gbl>,
>  <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311 at comcast.net>,
>  <55FB2C18.1030903 at sydex.com>

I found in this list mail please either fix it or stop using it?

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From ball.of.john at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 19:52:05 2015
From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:52:05 -0700
Subject: 12745 HP-IB Adapter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442509200.62749.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAIEFECDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>

So last week I did a rather insane 3000km road trip that had me travel
through four states (Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montanna) and over an
international line to pick up a "pack-loading HP disk drive". It turned out
to be a rather nice condition 7925B with a 13037C controller in the cabinet.
It has the usual nasty foam you gotta remove and replace but otherwise it's
extremely clean inside and out and powered up trouble-free. Unfortunately I
didn't receive any 13356A packs with it, nor did I receive the critical
component I needed: the 12745 HP-IB adapter kit.
I don't actually own any HP minis unless you include the PA-RISC HP9000 D350
but I have a number of machines that will support mass storage over
GPIB/HP-IB, including a Silicon Graphics machine. Anyways while I found all
the documentation I needed for the drive, controller and adapter and there's
that one pack on ebay for a less-than-modest $350 I cannot find even a hint
of anyone who has a spare 12745 kit for sale. Was this an uncommon addon or
am I just not looking in the right places?

-John


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 20:03:02 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:03:02 -0400
Subject: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer
 operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W166FA6A9E4E4B743702B3CA35A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTQBNHEV5i376SertD=+bpB1oUn_+LVNHcX7RZv0y6Sh0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W166FA6A9E4E4B743702B3CA35A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B254811D-3BD9-4FB3-8CC5-FF0C1B943A26@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:44 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> From: spacewar at gmail.com
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It is notable that in order to solve all problems, a computer must permit
>>> self modifying code.
>> 
>> From a theory of computation view, I don't believe that's true.  Any
>> computable function can be computed by a fixed program.
>> 
>> For a particular computable function, there may be a more efficient
>> implementation using self-modifying code.
>> 
>> On the other hand, computing a particular computable function may
>> require an arbitrariy amount of recursion, so it may take an
>> arbitrarily amount of writable memory.  The recusion may, of course,
>> be implemented as some equivalent that doesn't require the computer to
>> have explicit subroutine calls or stack, but the memory may still be
>> required.
> 
> That may be true for computing but I'm not sure if it is practical
> for real time control of complex systems.

What is the "that" you're referring to?

Real time control just adds time constraints to the correctness properties.  Any programming technique is valid, so long as those additional constraints are also satisfied.  There's nothing in the use of recursion, or its avoidance, that has anything particular to do with real time programming.

It may be true that some programming techniques are hard to analyze as far as their timing is concerned.  (If so, their correctness in general is likely to be hard to establish, as well.)  But recursion isn't necessarily one of those.

	paul



From jecel at merlintec.com  Thu Sep 17 19:50:18 2015
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:50:18 -0300 
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.8.1442538336.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

Rich Alderson on Thu, 17 Sep 2015 23:49:59 +0000 wrote:
> From: Paul Koning
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:02 AM
> 
> > In any case, I do not believe the original statement.  First of all, it is
> > well known that no computer can solve "all problems" (see G?del).  For those
> > it *can* solve, as far as I know, a Turing machine can solve a superset of
> > what a stored program computer can handle,
> 
> All right so far.

Actually, this is a very common misconception. A Turing Machine has no
input and so can do anything a practical batch computer can do and more,
but it can't do some things that real computers with inputs can. Try to
implement Spacewar! on a Turing Machine, for example. Note that this
important detail is actually discussed in the 1936 paper, which few have
read even though it is available freely online.

> > and a Turing machine does NOT have self-modifying code.
> 
> <choke><spit><soda on keyboard>
> 
> Excuse me????
> 
> A Turing machine is the very essence of self-modifying code, by its very
> definition!  You have the infinite memory tape, divided into cells, a reader,
> and a writer.  The reader looks at a cell and performs the action required by
> the symbol read there.  Possible actions include erasing the symbol already
> present and writing a new symbol; once that is done, the reader looks at the
> new symbol and performs the action required by *that* symbol.
> 
> Lather, rinse, repeat.  (Interrupt when out of shampoo.)

The tape is merely the data. The program is in the state table, which
can't be changed. So a given TM is very special purpose and can solve a
single problem. One of the problems that you can solve is the emulation
of another TM: that is the Universal Turing Machine and probably what
you were thinking of. The UTM also has an immutable code, but the
description of the TM it will emulate is stored on tape along with an
image of the emulated TM's own tape. So the UTM can solve different
problems even though its code is fixed. But neither the UTM nor the TMs
it simulates can have self-modifying code.

Just like we can create a TM to emulate other TMs, we can create a TM to
emulate a PDP-8 (for example). Like I mentioned above, real input and
output is a problem but we can certainly emulate them as well, which is
interesting enough. Though the code for this TM is also immutable, the
emulated PDP-8 can change its own code while it is running. This means
that machines capable of self-modifying code are no more powerful than
machines without this capability since the latter can simulate the
former (given enough resources, not considering performance, etc).

This conclusion should have been obvious to anyone thinking about
general purpose computers implemented with microcode in ROM.

-- Jecel


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 20:06:20 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:06:20 -0400
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,
 incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <7FC49293-79D3-4F9A-9F5F-278525D07C26@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 7:17 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Eric Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 12:48 AM
> 
>> On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
>> 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system.
> 
> So the PDP-6 monitor, which booted from DECtape but had no other dependency
> on that medium, was not an operating system?  It provided multiple timeshared
> jobs, so was not a single-program system.
> 
> TOS/360 was not an operating system?
> 
> Do only disk-oriented operating systems deserve that sobriquet?

Clearly that would be silly.  Not to mention the RT-11 operating system, which could boot and run with just DECtape.  Or the famous THE operating system, which boots from paper tape (though it pages to drum at runtime).

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 20:09:29 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:09:29 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB3634.7060208@charter.net>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
 <55FB3634.7060208@charter.net>
Message-ID: <537A6486-725D-4A79-B7EE-131E1E71C02B@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:52 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
> On 9/17/2015 2:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 2:56 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What is the definition of self modifying?
>>> Is it changing an instruction to execute in the thread to be run?
>>> How about adding or subtracting something to be done in an execution
>>> queue?
>> 
>> I'm not sure if there is a universally agreed to definition.
>> 
>> It also matters why the question is asked.  I can think of a couple of answers:
>> 
>> 1. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change.
>> 
>> 2. the contents of instruction memory is subject to change during execution of the program.
>> 
>> 3. individual instructions in a program are changed by the execution of that program.
>> 
>> 4. individual instructions in a program are changed by explicit data manipulation actions of that program.
>> 
>> #1 is true for most computers past and present, because they allow a program to be loaded into memory from external storage.
>> 
>> #2 is true in any program that uses overlays, or if the program is controlled by a debugger that uses "software breakpoints".
> 
> Don't / didn't some machines do/did this by setting an address trap
> register rather than modifying the breakpointed instruction?

Yes, that's why I said "software breakpoints", meaning breakpoints created by replacing the instruction with a break instruction, as opposed to "hardware breakpoints" which use address trap instructions.  Perhaps that's not universal terminology, but it's what GDB calls these things.  

> 
> Also, if the machine had explicit handling of overlays/segments, then
> that part of this becomes identical to #1.  (Burroughs?)

Or it's outside the picture entirely.  I was thinking of virtual address space here.  If you have paging or the like with physically addressed caches, then those are part of #1, yes.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Sep 17 20:13:46 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:13:46 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W26CAEF866FB9E4697F1DB0A35A0@phx.gbl>
References: <082901d0f166$21f3fa20$65dbee60$@gmail.com>
 <754580134.385014.1442509410772.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W489EC1A1ADC71D63C67FE7A35A0@phx.gbl>
 <AC8E698B-C14B-4460-A4C4-F59DA7558311@comcast.net>
 <55FB2C18.1030903@sydex.com> <BLU168-W26CAEF866FB9E4697F1DB0A35A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <51A0F6A7-8780-4B5E-A5D4-826A9AF42B56@comcast.net>


> On Sep 17, 2015, at 5:42 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I am quite aware of the caching problem.
> What I don't understand is what problem they thought they
> were fixing by outlawing self modifying code.

Self modifying code in sense #4 from my earlier note (i.e., a program that scribbles on bits of itself) is a perfectly fine programming technique if you have an ISA that leaves you no choice, and a good choice in some other specialized cases.  Boot time customization of critical kernel paths is an example.

The issue is that such code is hard to maintain because the source does not directly reflect what is executed.  So even by the standards of assembly language programming, self-modifying code adds a level of pain.  If it's poorly documented, you're in real trouble.

For a nice example, read "Mel, the story of a Real Programmer".  :-)

	paul



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 17 20:40:30 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:40:30 -0600
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/17/2015 6:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:

>
> This conclusion should have been obvious to anyone thinking about
> general purpose computers implemented with microcode in ROM.

Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM now-days.
You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there.

> -- Jecel
>
Ben.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 17 20:42:16 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:42:16 -0600
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <7FC49293-79D3-4F9A-9F5F-278525D07C26@comcast.net>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <7FC49293-79D3-4F9A-9F5F-278525D07C26@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FB6BF8.6050308@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/17/2015 7:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Clearly that would be silly.  Not to mention the RT-11 operating
> system, which could boot and run with just DECtape.  Or the famous
> THE operating system, which boots from paper tape (though it pages to
> drum at runtime).

With paper tape, would it not PASTE to the drum...
   ...Runs and hides.
> paul
>

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Thu Sep 17 20:46:26 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 20:46:26 -0500
Subject: SIMH PDP-8 question
Message-ID: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>

I have Lunar Lander (in Focal) working again on my PDP-8/A with two RL02 
drives (about which you have been reading a lot lately). It's been so long I 
don't remember where I got the text file (LUNAR.TX) from, but it's on both 
my RL02 OS/8 image and the physical pack...

The rather unusual way I got the Focal program saved onto the RL02 was to 
punch the text file to paper tape on the Teletype, start Focal, read the 
paper tape from the Teletype, then save the "typed"-in program to disk. 
Think that's how I did it quite a few years ago when I got the system, too. 
So far my best game is 0.20 mph "perfect landing - lucky!" :) Takes me back 
to junior high in the 70's...

Anyway, I'd like to do the same thing in SIMH (get the text file into Focal 
and then save it as a Focal program). Is there any way to do this with SIMH? 
Can I assign the text file to a paper tape reader, for example?

thanks
Charles


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 21:11:29 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:11:29 -0500
Subject: Canon Cat for sale
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509171432360.27808@vintagetech.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509171432360.27808@vintagetech.com>
Message-ID: <20150918021129.GA94586@gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015, Sellam ibn Abraham wrote:
> 
> I have a Canon Cat in terrific shape for sale.  It works just fine.  The 
> screen is bright and clean.  It also comes with the Canon Cat printer.
> 
> See photos here:
> 
> http://vintagetech.com/sales/Canon%20Cat/
> 
> More information available upon request.
> 
> Asking $1,400 or best offer.
> 
> Thanks.

You're Raskin' too much! ;)

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From oltmansg at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 21:34:38 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:34:38 -0500
Subject: Canon Cat for sale
In-Reply-To: <20150918021129.GA94586@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509171432360.27808@vintagetech.com>
 <20150918021129.GA94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D5518471-248A-45EA-A663-7C811FE675B8@gmail.com>


On Sep 17, 2015, at 9:11 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:

> 
> You're Raskin' too much! ;)

(groan!)

From barythrin at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 22:25:30 2015
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 22:25:30 -0500
Subject: 12" Floppy Disks
Message-ID: <gc8wcy5aoolux1nrnvsmve6v.1442546730794@email.android.com>

Is he also in the UK? Details or dates would help. Did he say it was a floppy like disk or just disc like a platter? I have to look around but i actually have something that sounds like it but I've never looked up what it really was. Figured it'd be disappointing and newer than it looks lol. I dont have a web site to display pictures but i can look for it and email you or someone else a shot of it. ?My guess is its really a magnetic backup tape. ?I haven't measured it but venture i can take a picture of it in front of a trs-80 model 2 that has 8" drives for comparison.

<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Adrian Graham <binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:09/15/2015  3:39 AM  (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> </div><div>Subject: 12" Floppy Disks </div><div>
</div>Morning folks,

I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about
12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen
one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's
contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so
sure.

Anyone?

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 22:32:06 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 22:32:06 -0500
Subject: DEC RX8-E, M8316, M8317, M8365, M8366
Message-ID: <CACwhfuP=6G+T3v2N6NUwPU+OYSdf2jsmvkgN2KEMXP75oG9vMA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a limited of M8357, RX8-Es for sale, first come, first served, for
$175.

I think I found the M8316, M8317, LQP01 interface, and LA180 interface, and
will try to post a price in the next few days.

Shipping within US is $10 for up to 10.  Shipping from 61853.

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Sep 17 22:55:39 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 22:55:39 -0500
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55FB8B3B.5030209@pico-systems.com>

On 09/17/2015 08:40 PM, ben wrote:
> On 9/17/2015 6:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
>
>>
>> This conclusion should have been obvious to anyone 
>> thinking about
>> general purpose computers implemented with microcode in ROM.
>
> Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into 
> RAM now-days.
> You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there.
>
The 370/145 had microcode in static RAM, in a region of main 
storage, the first 64 K was a faster bank of SRAM, if I 
remember correctly.
The wall between microcode and regular main storage was 
movable, and selected by the microcode.

I think the later X86 machines have a tiny block of patch 
microcode that is available to the OS to put special 
routines into.

Jon

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Sep 17 23:19:46 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:19:46 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB8B3B.5030209@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FB8B3B.5030209@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FB90E2.6010709@shiresoft.com>



On 9/17/15 8:55 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
> I think the later X86 machines have a tiny block of patch microcode 
> that is available to the OS to put special routines into.
>
Certainly not Intel CPUs.  All of the microcode patches are loaded via 
special instruction sequences
(described in the SDM).  The microcode patch RAM is in the CPU and not 
visible to S/W.

TTFN - Guy


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 23:36:31 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 23:36:31 -0500
Subject: DEC RX8-E, M8316, M8317, M8365, M8366
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuP=6G+T3v2N6NUwPU+OYSdf2jsmvkgN2KEMXP75oG9vMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=6G+T3v2N6NUwPU+OYSdf2jsmvkgN2KEMXP75oG9vMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN7VGkhuNXUne6KqDs7kMgLEsW7a289AWt+qCwPm1V3xQ@mail.gmail.com>

opps- Please contact me off list.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a limited of M8357, RX8-Es for sale, first come, first served, for
> $175.
>
> I think I found the M8316, M8317, LQP01 interface, and LA180 interface,
> and will try to post a price in the next few days.
>
> Shipping within US is $10 for up to 10.  Shipping from 61853.
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 00:03:00 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 23:03:00 -0600
Subject: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl.
 Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAFrGgTRasxt4juXhSFX-p8ssONJn8Ci-y1jr8GdCWRiRTb55oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD4FCA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSGrBicp10R0votOXsex4e4ex+hiqCkg5uswaDXP88nBw@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote:
> On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in
> 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Rich Alderson
<RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> So the PDP-6 monitor, which booted from DECtape but had no other dependency
> on that medium, was not an operating system?  It provided multiple timeshared
> jobs, so was not a single-program system.

I never said such a thing.  MIKBUG is only a monitor in the sense that
all it provides it the ability to examine and deposit memory, load and
dump memory in an object format (S-records), and character I/O only to
a console device. It doesn't even have any program debugging features
to speak of. It doesn't have any form of job control. It doesn't have
any device abstraction or framework for device-independent I/O. If
that's an operating system, it's one of the crudest ones ever, being
less functional even than IBSYS/IBJOB. However, it was a perfectly
fine monitor.

Despite the PDP-6 Monitor being called "Monitor", it was obviously a
complete, full-featured operating system.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Sep 18 02:33:12 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 08:33:12 +0100
Subject: SIMH PDP-8 question
In-Reply-To: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <mailman.10.1442561600.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

I have connected my Teletype Model 33 to the SIMH  console via a DECserver 90M using reverse telnet. I *think* you can connect SIMH directly to a serial port now, if so that might be a simpler way.

Regards

Rob 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Charles" <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net>
Sent: ?18/?09/?2015 02:46
To: "cctalk digest" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: SIMH PDP-8 question

I have Lunar Lander (in Focal) working again on my PDP-8/A with two RL02 
drives (about which you have been reading a lot lately). It's been so long I 
don't remember where I got the text file (LUNAR.TX) from, but it's on both 
my RL02 OS/8 image and the physical pack...

The rather unusual way I got the Focal program saved onto the RL02 was to 
punch the text file to paper tape on the Teletype, start Focal, read the 
paper tape from the Teletype, then save the "typed"-in program to disk. 
Think that's how I did it quite a few years ago when I got the system, too. 
So far my best game is 0.20 mph "perfect landing - lucky!" :) Takes me back 
to junior high in the 70's...

Anyway, I'd like to do the same thing in SIMH (get the text file into Focal 
and then save it as a Focal program). Is there any way to do this with SIMH? 
Can I assign the text file to a paper tape reader, for example?

thanks
Charles


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Sep 18 05:58:24 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 06:58:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
> now-days.

"Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
"writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.

> You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there.

Such as every x86 processor since, what, the Pentium?  They're all RISC
cores (designed for and) running an x86 emulator.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri Sep 18 06:03:00 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:03:00 +0200
Subject: HP-41 User Library Programs and Documentation.
Message-ID: <004701d0f201$96396fa0$c2ac4ee0$@xs4all.nl>

For the cost of shipment, the below is surging for a new owner.

 

About nine books with program cards containing programs about:

-        Control

-        Electrical Engineering

-        Business

-        81XX Processors assembly conversion

-        Math and calculus

-        Graphics and printing

-        Etc..

 

H-41 User Library Documents, some about filing new programs other copies of
the actual User Library Books

Program documentation belonging to some of the program cards.

 

The weight of it is about 3kg so shipping will be in 2-5kg range.

It is of cause as is, no warranty etc..

 

If interested contact me off-list


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 18 06:06:51 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:06:51 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
 - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 06:58:24AM -0400, Mouse wrote:
> 
> > You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there.
> 
> Such as every x86 processor since, what, the Pentium?  They're all RISC
> cores (designed for and) running an x86 emulator.
> 

I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various places. 
It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in modern Intel 
processors that lets us bypass the x86 code emulation/translation and 
run "directly on the metal" (if there were such a thing).

The purpose, of course, would be to gain performance. Certainly this 
would already have been done if there was any significant gain to be 
had?

/P

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 18 06:25:37 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
    > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
    >   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725

So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?

	Noel

From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Sep 18 06:35:11 2015
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:35:11 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE> (Pontus Pihlgren's message
 of "Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:06:51 +0200")
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>

Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 06:58:24AM -0400, Mouse wrote:
>> Such as every x86 processor since, what, the Pentium?  They're all
>> RISC cores (designed for and) running an x86 emulator.
>
> I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various places. 
> It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in modern Intel 
> processors that lets us bypass the x86 code emulation/translation and 
> run "directly on the metal" (if there were such a thing).

I believe the VIA C3 had an undocumented feature to allow executing the
underlying RISC instructions.

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 07:22:46 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:22:46 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code, lambda
 calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGCMWGWOEk5-Havp1Ge5NCnqe05woVmKjTVg=wk=XxakA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 13:06, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various places.
> It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in modern Intel
> processors that lets us bypass the x86 code emulation/translation and
> run "directly on the metal" (if there were such a thing).
>
> The purpose, of course, would be to gain performance. Certainly this
> would already have been done if there was any significant gain to be
> had?

I think not, because the "RISC core interpreting x86 instructions" is
a fairly gross over-simplification, as best as I have been able to
determine. Yes, all C21 x86 chips borrow lots of design principles
from RISC, but they are CISC chips executing CISC code -- just doing a
lot of fancy on-the-fly optimisations. There isn't an underlying
separate different microcode.

That has been done, though. It was the Transmeta Crusoe line of processors.

These were not directly x86-compatible at all: they had their own
instruction set, and during boot, loaded a translation layer on top
which executed x86 code via a sort of optimising compiler/interpreter
with JIT.

The purpose was to achieve very low power consumption, for portables.
The performance was not as good as native x86 even at the time --
although nearly -- but the processors used significantly less power.

They were not RISC, though: they were VLIW underneath.

I always thought it was *the* critical mistake of Transmeta not to at
least release the native instruction set. If they could also execute
Motorola 680x0 code, or PowerPC code, or Alpha code, or any other
discontinued (or effectively discontinued) instruction set, they would
still have a market today.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 07:23:57 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:23:57 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code, lambda
 calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGiJ1qX-exKFaON4Hy9wLNLHaj2W1+y9WP10a52T8XJ-g@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 13:35, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
> I believe the VIA C3 had an undocumented feature to allow executing the
> underlying RISC instructions.


[[Citation needed]]

I've never heard of anything like this. Are you perhaps thinking of
the Crusoe family chips?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 07:46:53 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:46:53 +0100
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGCMWGWOEk5-Havp1Ge5NCnqe05woVmKjTVg=wk=XxakA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAMTenCGCMWGWOEk5-Havp1Ge5NCnqe05woVmKjTVg=wk=XxakA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f101d0f210$191290b0$4b37b210$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 18 September 2015 13:23
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code, lambda
> calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
> 
> On 18 September 2015 at 13:06, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> > I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various places.
> > It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in modern Intel
> > processors that lets us bypass the x86 code emulation/translation and
> > run "directly on the metal" (if there were such a thing).
> >
> > The purpose, of course, would be to gain performance. Certainly this
> > would already have been done if there was any significant gain to be
> > had?
> 

 Don't know about the Intel chips but the IBM Mainframe chips have an intermediate level of code they call "millicode" as described for example here:-

http://ibmsystemsmag.com/mainframe/administrator/performance/millicode_rogers/

and basically you don't actually want to by-pass this code because by doing so you by-pass the optimisations and so run more slowly....


> I think not, because the "RISC core interpreting x86 instructions" is a fairly
> gross over-simplification, as best as I have been able to determine. Yes, all
> C21 x86 chips borrow lots of design principles from RISC, but they are CISC
> chips executing CISC code -- just doing a lot of fancy on-the-fly optimisations.
> There isn't an underlying separate different microcode.
> 
> That has been done, though. It was the Transmeta Crusoe line of processors.
> 
> These were not directly x86-compatible at all: they had their own instruction
> set, and during boot, loaded a translation layer on top which executed x86
> code via a sort of optimising compiler/interpreter with JIT.
> 
> The purpose was to achieve very low power consumption, for portables.
> The performance was not as good as native x86 even at the time -- although
> nearly -- but the processors used significantly less power.
> 
> They were not RISC, though: they were VLIW underneath.
> 
> I always thought it was *the* critical mistake of Transmeta not to at least
> release the native instruction set. If they could also execute Motorola 680x0
> code, or PowerPC code, or Alpha code, or any other discontinued (or
> effectively discontinued) instruction set, they would still have a market
> today.
> 
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Sep 18 08:06:32 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:06:32 -0400
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <55FC0C58.2050806@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-18 7:06 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 06:58:24AM -0400, Mouse wrote:
>>
>>> You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there.
>>
>> Such as every x86 processor since, what, the Pentium?  They're all RISC
>> cores (designed for and) running an x86 emulator.
>>
>
> I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various places.
> It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in modern Intel
> processors that lets us bypass the x86 code emulation/translation and
> run "directly on the metal" (if there were such a thing).
>
> The purpose, of course, would be to gain performance. Certainly this
> would already have been done if there was any significant gain to be
> had?

Imho, there are some pretty big negatives to going this route that would 
have to be weighed against possible performance difference:

Intel would be extremely reluctant to expose trade secrets, or have 
customers tightly coupled to implementation details. It would impact 
everything from product development process to roadmap simply to have a 
customer using a non-x86 programmer model. The decoupling implied by an 
instruction set/architecture has always been of great advantage to 
chipmakers, as much as it is to end users.

Don't neglect the massive cost in supporting a new ISA or partial 
compilers, in tools, design, testing, porting, etc.

I think you answered your own question - the cost/benefit rules it out :)

--Toby


>
> /P
>


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri Sep 18 08:21:00 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:21:00 +0200
Subject: HP-41 User Library Programs and Documentation.
In-Reply-To: <004701d0f201$96396fa0$c2ac4ee0$@xs4all.nl>
References: <004701d0f201$96396fa0$c2ac4ee0$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <009101d0f214$dd6313f0$98293bd0$@xs4all.nl>

Spoken for.

-Rik

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos
> Verzonden: vrijdag 18 september 2015 13:03
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Onderwerp: HP-41 User Library Programs and Documentation.
> 
> For the cost of shipment, the below is surging for a new owner.
> 
> 
> 
> About nine books with program cards containing programs about:
> 
> -        Control
> 
> -        Electrical Engineering
> 
> -        Business
> 
> -        81XX Processors assembly conversion
> 
> -        Math and calculus
> 
> -        Graphics and printing
> 
> -        Etc..
> 
> 
> 
> H-41 User Library Documents, some about filing new programs other copies
of
> the actual User Library Books
> 
> Program documentation belonging to some of the program cards.
> 
> 
> 
> The weight of it is about 3kg so shipping will be in 2-5kg range.
> 
> It is of cause as is, no warranty etc..
> 
> 
> 
> If interested contact me off-list


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Sep 18 08:31:32 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:31:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <201509181331.JAA21030@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Such as every x86 processor since, what, the Pentium?  They're all
>> RISC cores (designed for and) running an x86 emulator.

> I've been told this more than a few times and read it in various
> places.  It always make me wonder, could we not allow a mode in
> modern Intel processors that lets us bypass the x86 code
> emulation/translation and run "directly on the metal" (if there were
> such a thing).

> The purpose, of course, would be to gain performance.

Yes...but.

The first objection that occurs to me is that it's reasonably likely
the "underlying RISC core" is not a very good general-purpose machine.
That's what the "(designed for and)" was alluding to: the underlying
machine, to the extent that there is one, is designed for running
exactly one thing, that being the x86 emulator.  It would, for example,
not surprise me if it did not have the user/kernel privilege mode
distinction that approximately all OSes depend on these days.

Others have also raised the point that doing this would require the
vendor to document and support the underlying machine.  This is only
somewhat true, but it's doubtless at least part of the explanation.
(The documentation probably exists, for internal use if nothing else,
but likely contains things the vendor is unwilling to release.  I don't
recall details, but I recall thinking, in reaction to a vendor leak,
that it might have been the vendor wanting to release documentation but
wanting to retain plausible deniability about having done so....)

And, of course, there are probably other forces at work too.

But it's still annoying and disappointing that only the letter agencies
and the black-hat community are competent to rewrite the microcode in
modern peecees.  (Well, and the vendors, of course.)

I just recently (mostly-)finished transcribing the VAX architecture
manual into text (I am doing final proofreading before letting the
result out; I'll announce it here once I have it ready).  One of the
subsections says

| C.3.1  Publishing Architecture Discrepancies
| 
| The  Systems  Architecture  group  maintains  the   lists   of   known
| architecture  discrepancies.   These  lists  are made available to ARG
| members for distribution within their organizations.   The  lists  are
| submitted  to publications that are readily accessible to customers if
| the discrepancies are visible to customers.   All  discrepancies  that
| have  been waived will be published in the architecture specification,
| either as a note in an appropriate section,  or  in  an  appendix  for
| waivers.
| 
| The single exception is that we will not publish the list  of  "system
| killers"  outside  of  Digital.  All questions about "system killers",
| even ones asking if there are any, will be answered "No Comment".  The
| reason  for  this  is  to  protect  customers  (from  their  users) by
| providing absolutely no information on the subject.  In addition, this
| "no  comment"  policy  will  be  published  along  with  the  lists of
| architecture discrepancies.

This evidences a vast faith - now shown to be misplaced - in the
inability of the black hats to discover things without DEC's help; the
notion that such a policy _would_ protect customers from their users
depends on DEC being the only source of such information.  My point
here is not to reawaken the "full disclosure" question; it's just that
it would not surprise me if -- no, it would surprise me if not -- there
were a component of this attitude in modern CPU vendors' failure to
release documentation on the real hardware, despite all the history
showing that such policies just give the black hats an advantage....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 18 08:33:05 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:33:05 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> > Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
> > now-days.
> 
> "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
> operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
> "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.

As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case, there is a microcode boot ROM to load
the microcode from disk, but it is switched out after the microcode is loaded).


-tony

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 08:43:27 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:43:27 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>,
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <107601d0f217$ffc737c0$ff55a740$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony
duell
> Sent: 18 September 2015 14:33
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
> 
> >
> > > Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
> > > now-days.
> >

Of course not sure if it's a stage further or a stage less, but any way, but
for any FPGA implementation of a computer, and there are many about, then
the entire system definition is stored in RAM which is loaded at power-on...

> > "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
> > operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
> > "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.
> 
> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to
> have time to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs
(3 in
> the next room) have their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case,
there
> is a microcode boot ROM to load the microcode from disk, but it is
switched
> out after the microcode is loaded).
> 
> 
> -tony


From db at db.net  Fri Sep 18 08:45:37 2015
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:45:37 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 01:33:05PM +0000, tony duell wrote:
> > 
> > > Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
> > > now-days.
> > 
> > "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
> > operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
> > "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.
> 
> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have


The PDP-11 console loads the microcode from disk then mostly just sits there
looking pretty whilst the VAX runs.

> their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case, there is a microcode boot ROM to load
> the microcode from disk, but it is switched out after the microcode is loaded).
> 
> 
> -tony
> 

-- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 18 08:45:29 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:45:29 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> >
> > As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
> > to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
> 
> The PDP-11 console loads the microcode from disk then mostly just sits there
> looking pretty whilst the VAX runs.

The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730 makes do with an
8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.

-tony

From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Sep 18 08:43:15 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 08:43:15 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.12.1442584290.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 01:01 PM 9/16/2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>But, those still require a gullibility error on the part of the user, don't they?  Do the ads actually load and run the ransomware, or just present the fraudulent upgrade offer to bring it in?

The bad guys are slipping silent-install vulnerability exploits into
the HTML of ads they place through ad networks.  No user error or
trickery involved.  You never see it coming.  You visit a reputable
site, but can you trust their ad network and all its subcontractors
and all their sub-ad-networks?

As to why your antivirus didn't see it... there's always a few days 
before the latest infection mechanisms are documented and added to 
the AV updates.

As you say, your backup needs to be effectively off-line, not
on a visible writable filesystem, and you need to detect when 
files have changed and keep previous versions within a reasonable
window of detection.  Few residential and small-business
networks have anything like that.  Most write simple backups 
to attached or network storage.  Cloud-based backup is nice, 
and slow upload speeds throttle the damage, but how many cloud-based
small-business backups can recover N previous versions of changed files?

When I first heard about Cryptolocker, I wanted to give up consulting
and find a different career.  

- John


From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Fri Sep 18 09:08:38 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:08:38 -0700
Subject: SIMH PDP-8 question
In-Reply-To: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <8674D37AE80E4A7EA4B8F7EEDE8758EE@Vincew7>

From: Charles: Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:46 PM
> Anyway, I'd like to do the same thing in SIMH (get the text file into Focal 
> and then save it as a Focal program). Is there any way to do this with SIMH? 
> Can I assign the text file to a paper tape reader, for example?

This should work fairly easily using the high speed paper 
tape peripherals of SIMH.  You can equip an output file 
for the punch, punch the "tape", then equip that file for 
the reader, and I believe the asterisk command or some 
such Focal feature will read it in.  Save to disk, and you'll 
have your text file converted.

Low speed paper tape on SIMH is more problematic, as 
you don't really have an 8 bit channel, flow control isn't 
implemented, etc.  (At least on the console that is shared 
with the SIMH command prompt.)

    Vince 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Sep 18 09:46:46 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <107601d0f217$ffc737c0$ff55a740$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>, 
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <107601d0f217$ffc737c0$ff55a740$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180745360.7104@shell.lmi.net>

"Self modifying code may seem like a neat idea.  But, it will turn around 
and byte you in the arse.  Maybe not now, but soon, and for the rest of 
your life."

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Sep 18 09:55:46 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, John Foust wrote:
> As to why your antivirus didn't see it... there's always a few days
> before the latest infection mechanisms are documented and added to
> the AV updates.

CryptoLocker has been around for a year.  I don't think that McAfee nor 
AVG see it.  "Well, it's not a VIRUS, . . ."

> When I first heard about Cryptolocker, I wanted to give up consulting
> and find a different career.

Is there a way to crowdfund a hit?




From misc4email at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 10:38:02 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:38:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I bet there were no bids and the seller took it off the auction.Probably was too embarrassed to admit what I told them that it had virtually no value (or very little)in a non-working condition. ?You might see it offered again at ?much lower price.
      From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725

So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?

??? Noel


  

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 18 11:09:49 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:09:49 +0200
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20150918160949.GA9661@Update.UU.SE>

Well it sold for 899.99$ with one bidder..so it had that value to someone.

/P

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 03:38:02PM +0000, Able Baker wrote:
> I bet there were no bids and the seller took it off the auction.Probably was too embarrassed to admit what I told them that it had virtually no value (or very little)in a non-working condition. ?You might see it offered again at ?much lower price.
>       From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>  To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
>  Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
>  Subject: Re: IBM 026
>    
> ? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
> ? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> ? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
> ??? Noel
> 
> 
> 

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 18 11:13:00 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:13:00 -0500
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FB90E2.6010709@shiresoft.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FB8B3B.5030209@pico-systems.com>
 <55FB90E2.6010709@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <55FC380C.2090500@pico-systems.com>

On 09/17/2015 11:19 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>
> On 9/17/15 8:55 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>> I think the later X86 machines have a tiny block of patch 
>> microcode that is available to the OS to put special 
>> routines into.
>>
> Certainly not Intel CPUs.  All of the microcode patches 
> are loaded via special instruction sequences
> (described in the SDM).  The microcode patch RAM is in the 
> CPU and not visible to S/W.
>
OK, thanks, I knew there was this patch RAM, but didn't know 
the purpose.

Jon

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 11:16:55 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:16:55 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 16:55, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> CryptoLocker has been around for a year.  I don't think that McAfee nor AVG
> see it.  "Well, it's not a VIRUS, . . ."


Former AVG employee here. I quit; this is not an official statement.

CryptoLocker/CryptoWall/etc are *not* a single program. It's a whole
family of them. The programs are constantly modified so that the
anti-malware doesn't pick them up until it's too late. Antimalware
mostly still uses signature databases for identification, plus hooks
for suspicious activity. Cryptolocker is not infectious, so it doesn't
perform canonical suspicious activities. It opens lots of user data
files but so do indexing tools from Windows Search to Google Desktop
to Copernic.

However, Cryptolocker et al spread by fooling users into running
something they shouldn't run. I'm sorry, but you got suckered.

Me, I only use Windows if someone pays me to. Life is too short
otherwise. My desktop is a Mac (and before that was a Hackintosh); my
laptops run Ubuntu. Both are much *much* less work and I don't need to
run antimalware.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 18 11:21:13 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 11:21:13 -0500
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FC39F9.80805@pico-systems.com>

On 09/18/2015 08:45 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
>>> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
>> The PDP-11 console loads the microcode from disk then mostly just sits there
>> looking pretty whilst the VAX runs.
> The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730 makes do with an
> 8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.
>
> -tony
>
780's had a board of fixed microcode, and then a WCS board 
was added in later revisions (and all machines in the field 
had to be upgraded) to add some additional code to handle 
added instructions used by the OS (at least for VMS, don't 
know if BSD used it).  The WCS microcode was in a file on 
the LSI-11's floppy, and it was called in at a certain point 
of the VMS boot sequence.  That caused a line to print 
during the boot.  The typical dot matrix printer console on 
the 780 was also connected to/through the LSI-11.


Jon

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 11:21:23 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:21:23 -0600
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSiar3u_M=BO4nuG8HULpQfdLobekNYy-nuszfV54V7FQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:45 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730 makes do with an
> 8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.

Most of the 11/780 microcode is in bipolar PROM. There's a small patch
area which is loaded by the PDP-11.

The 11/785 microcode is entirely in RAM, so it all gets loaded by the PDP-11.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 11:25:06 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 17:25:06 +0100
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020c01d0f22e$9524aad0$bf6e0070$@gmail.com>

Are you 100 % sure you don't need anti-malware...

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/08/05/apple-to-patch-actively-exploited-privilege-escalation-bug-in-os-x-10105---report

from what I have seen the fix from Apple isn't a fix...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/22/os_x_root_hole/

but to run SUID. Of course as you know from Facebook I am not a MAC expert, but I do know that if a product has as many lines of code in it as OS X it will have bugs and security holes...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 18 September 2015 17:17
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
> 
> On 18 September 2015 at 16:55, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > CryptoLocker has been around for a year.  I don't think that McAfee
> > nor AVG see it.  "Well, it's not a VIRUS, . . ."
> 
> 
> Former AVG employee here. I quit; this is not an official statement.
> 
> CryptoLocker/CryptoWall/etc are *not* a single program. It's a whole family
> of them. The programs are constantly modified so that the anti-malware
> doesn't pick them up until it's too late. Antimalware mostly still uses
> signature databases for identification, plus hooks for suspicious activity.
> Cryptolocker is not infectious, so it doesn't perform canonical suspicious
> activities. It opens lots of user data files but so do indexing tools from
> Windows Search to Google Desktop to Copernic.
> 
> However, Cryptolocker et al spread by fooling users into running something
> they shouldn't run. I'm sorry, but you got suckered.
> 
> Me, I only use Windows if someone pays me to. Life is too short otherwise.
> My desktop is a Mac (and before that was a Hackintosh); my laptops run
> Ubuntu. Both are much *much* less work and I don't need to run
> antimalware.
> 
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 11:46:40 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:46:40 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <020c01d0f22e$9524aad0$bf6e0070$@gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <020c01d0f22e$9524aad0$bf6e0070$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFLvdp=SZ2K79tKGGhamo5mOXERFDKe15qYMhMeQjsa1g@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 18:25, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you 100 % sure you don't need anti-malware...
>
> http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/08/05/apple-to-patch-actively-exploited-privilege-escalation-bug-in-os-x-10105---report
>
> from what I have seen the fix from Apple isn't a fix...
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/22/os_x_root_hole/
>
> but to run SUID. Of course as you know from Facebook I am not a MAC expert, but I do know that if a product has as many lines of code in it as OS X it will have bugs and security holes...


Well, overall, yes.

It's a Unix box. If it was a web server or something, it would be
remotely exploitable, like any other Unix box.

But it's not. It has no outwardly-accessible services at all -- it's
behind a firewall and all it does is share a single folder with my
laptops. It doesn't even have ssh. It isn't a mail server, web server
or anything.

There are a few Trojans on OS X, but I think I am smart enough to avoid them.

There's no adware, no spyware (except what Apple might have built in),
no self-infecting viruses, nothing. I don't use most of Apple's apps
-- I don't use their browser, email client, chat client, or
productivity tools; I very occasionally use their media player and
their text editor, and that's about it. The Apple text editor isn't
the default, incidentally.



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Sep 18 11:49:13 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 09:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180926380.7104@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
> However, Cryptolocker et al spread by fooling users into running
> something they shouldn't run. I'm sorry, but you got suckered.

Absolutely.
I now think that it was a "We're Adobe, click here to update Flash Player"
or maybe "Java update"
But, I never got my winnings from the Elbonian Lottery.


It got everything in that computer, and started on the backup drive that 
was currently connected.  I now realize the importance of diconnecting the 
backup drive promptly.    D'uh!

But, it got bogged down in the first directory of the backup drive, and 
hadn't moved on to the other directories by the time it started extortion 
of the computer!  Tht directory was full of zillions of files, mostly 
photos copied from my friend's computer after he died.  He saved me from 
beyond the grave!   And, I still have his machine to make another copy of 
those.


Hmmm.  30 years ago, I stepped on the DIRectory of a floppy, and created a 
subdirectory that had a subdirectory that was its parent directory.  It 
actually worked well enough to prevent CHKDSK /V from being able to walk 
the DIRectory tree (kept trying to follow subdirectories back onto 
themselves).  I wonder if that would work on this?  (until they notice, 
and change their sequence).  Also created files named "*.*" and 
"????????.???", multiple entries for same file in DIRectory, etc.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 11:57:06 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:57:06 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180926380.7104@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180926380.7104@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEe=1tRmc-k=wJmJ-NbNNxzrniTFM9EUsE+6z6ob4cVoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 18:49, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Absolutely.
> I now think that it was a "We're Adobe, click here to update Flash Player"
> or maybe "Java update"

I can see how one of those, done well, might fool most of us. I am not
one of those daredevil ascetics who runs Windows without anti-malware
but with no Flash, Java, etc. -- crap like that is the reason I run
Windows. I won't let MS clients connect to the Internet on my own
machines though -- no MS chat client, email, browser, music player,
video player, _anything_. All disabled or removed and replaced with
FOSS alternatives.

Sadly, this isn't really practical in business.

> But, I never got my winnings from the Elbonian Lottery.

It would have been all muddy anyway.

> It got everything in that computer, and started on the backup drive that was
> currently connected.  I now realize the importance of diconnecting the
> backup drive promptly.    D'uh!

Yes, and thank you for the salutory lesson!

> But, it got bogged down in the first directory of the backup drive, and
> hadn't moved on to the other directories by the time it started extortion of
> the computer!  Tht directory was full of zillions of files, mostly photos
> copied from my friend's computer after he died.  He saved me from beyond the
> grave!   And, I still have his machine to make another copy of those.

Small blessings, I guess.

> Hmmm.  30 years ago, I stepped on the DIRectory of a floppy, and created a
> subdirectory that had a subdirectory that was its parent directory.  It
> actually worked well enough to prevent CHKDSK /V from being able to walk the
> DIRectory tree (kept trying to follow subdirectories back onto themselves).
> I wonder if that would work on this?  (until they notice, and change their
> sequence).  Also created files named "*.*" and "????????.???", multiple
> entries for same file in DIRectory, etc.

Niiiiiiiice...


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 12:10:27 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:10:27 +0100
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFLvdp=SZ2K79tKGGhamo5mOXERFDKe15qYMhMeQjsa1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <020c01d0f22e$9524aad0$bf6e0070$@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFLvdp=SZ2K79tKGGhamo5mOXERFDKe15qYMhMeQjsa1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d0f234$eb8e3110$c2aa9330$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 18 September 2015 17:47
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
> 
> On 18 September 2015 at 18:25, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Are you 100 % sure you don't need anti-malware...
> >
> > http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/08/05/apple-to-patch-actively-expl
> > oited-privilege-escalation-bug-in-os-x-10105---report
> >
> > from what I have seen the fix from Apple isn't a fix...
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/22/os_x_root_hole/
> >
> > but to run SUID. Of course as you know from Facebook I am not a MAC
> expert, but I do know that if a product has as many lines of code in it as OS X
> it will have bugs and security holes...
> 
> 
> Well, overall, yes.
> 
> It's a Unix box. If it was a web server or something, it would be remotely
> exploitable, like any other Unix box.
> 
> But it's not. It has no outwardly-accessible services at all -- it's behind a
> firewall and all it does is share a single folder with my laptops. It doesn't even
> have ssh. It isn't a mail server, web server or anything.
> 
> There are a few Trojans on OS X, but I think I am smart enough to avoid
> them.
> 
> There's no adware, no spyware (except what Apple might have built in), no
> self-infecting viruses, nothing. I don't use most of Apple's apps
> -- I don't use their browser, email client, chat client, or productivity tools; I
> very occasionally use their media player and their text editor, and that's
> about it. The Apple text editor isn't the default, incidentally.
> 

But you do use a browser.... and all of those have holes...


> 
> 
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From jecel at merlintec.com  Fri Sep 18 12:11:06 2015
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:11:06 -0300 
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGCMWGWOEk5-Havp1Ge5NCnqe05woVmKjTVg=wk=XxakA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAMTenCGCMWGWOEk5-Havp1Ge5NCnqe05woVmKjTVg=wk=XxakA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.13.1442596286.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

Just a quick history of x86 implementation styles (from memory, so don't
take this very seriously):

8086: Intel's first pipeline, with separate Fetch and Execution units

iAPX286: borrowed some ideas from iAPX432's protection model, but I
don't know any implementation details

386: traditional CISC pipeline

486: main "RISC" pipeline for most popular instructions wih microcode
support for the rest (some of the least popular instructions were
actually slower than on the 386)

Pentium: dual "RISC" pipelines, one of which had microcode support for
the rest of the instructions

Nx586 from NextGen: internal RISC instruction set with hardware
translation from x86

Pentium Pro: like Nx586 (internal instructions called "micro ops")

K6 from AMD: AMD bought NextGen and updated their technology

Pentium II and III: improved Pentium Pro

Pentium 4: the "microburst" architecture was optimized for highest
possible clocks. The hardware translator for x86 to micro ops was placed
before the instruction cache instead of after, which allowed some
interesting optimizations

Core, Core 2 and so on: though at first sight it seems like the x86
instructions are translated into RISC "micro ops", the internal
execution engine is actually a DataFlow machine instead. This is called
out of order (OOO) execution and the reason this isn't obvious is
because the bits that link the instructions together are spread out
among different hardware parts and not all together with the
instructions themselves as in classical DataFlow architectures.

Having direct access to this internal OOO engine would not really help.
Being able to bypass it entirely could be interesting since it takes a
lot of energy and transistors to do its job, and this is what the Mill
architecture is trying to do:

http://millcomputing.com/docs/

-- Jecel


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 18 12:19:28 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:19:28 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180926380.7104@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180926380.7104@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55FC47A0.6020409@sydex.com>

On 09/18/2015 09:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
>> However, Cryptolocker et al spread by fooling users into running
>> something they shouldn't run. I'm sorry, but you got suckered.
>
> Absolutely. I now think that it was a "We're Adobe, click here to
> update Flash Player" or maybe "Java update" But, I never got my
> winnings from the Elbonian Lottery.

I think it's more complicated than that.  Here's a sample of what 
happened to me in the last few days.

I received an email for a lost password reset in Twitter.  This was odd, 
as I've never ever been tempted to sign up for that pile of steaming 
gossip and sociopathy called Twitter.  But there it was, my email and a 
link coming (verified by headers) from twitter.com.  Internally, it used 
a name, but it wasn't mine.

I sent a complaint to Twitter along with the complete forwarded message 
demanding to know what was going on.  I got the automated response, but 
then utter silence.  I'd be surprised if I got much more than that.

I've often stated that the problem with the malware protection business 
is that it's reactive, not pro-active.  So there's got to be hours or 
days for the nastyware to propagate before someone writes a detector for it.

There's been apparently a virus active for months that spies on online 
poker players:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34289003

Where were Norton, AVG, etc. for those months?  I don't blame them; 
they're trying to make up for the fact that most operating systems are 
failing at their basic task of protecting the user.  FWIW, the small 
server I use here runs OpenBSD.  The level of paranoia of the code base 
maintainers impresses me--but I don't trust it entirely.

One can but wonder how many backups are infected with the same virus.

--Chuck



From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Sep 18 12:26:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:26:10 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150918160949.GA9661@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20150918160949.GA9661@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <55FC4932.90708@jwsss.com>



On 9/18/2015 9:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Well it sold for 899.99$ with one bidder..so it had that value to someone.
Watch the auction seller's feedback.  If you are lucky, the buyer will 
leave feedback and you can see some more info about the buyer at that point.
> /P
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 03:38:02PM +0000, Able Baker wrote:
>> <snip>
>>        From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>>   To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>>   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
>>   Subject: Re: IBM 026
>>     
>>      > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>>      > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>      >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>
>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>>      Noel
>>
>>
>>
>


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 18 12:36:37 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:36:37 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
Message-ID: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>

Someone asked about uploading the SunOS 4.1 docubox I had scanned, so I finally
got around to doing that today, but discovered that I never scanned the part 1,
just the system calls of 800-3827. I suspect that I never had it. So if someone
has that or a Solaris 1.x docubox a scan would be helpful.


From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Sep 18 13:00:23 2015
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:00:23 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGiJ1qX-exKFaON4Hy9wLNLHaj2W1+y9WP10a52T8XJ-g@mail.gmail.com>
 (Liam Proven's message of "Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:23:57 +0200")
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
 <CAMTenCGiJ1qX-exKFaON4Hy9wLNLHaj2W1+y9WP10a52T8XJ-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86oagzr4js.fsf_-_@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>

Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
> On 18 September 2015 at 13:35, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>> I believe the VIA C3 had an undocumented feature to allow executing
>> the underlying RISC instructions.
>
> [[Citation needed]]
>
> I've never heard of anything like this. Are you perhaps thinking of
> the Crusoe family chips?

No, it was not Crusoe.  I'm fairly sure it was VIA, and less sure it was
the C3.  Maybe Cyrix?  Whatever was current technology around 2002 I
guess.

I remember reading the rumour that the RISC instruction set was
accessible, and I contacted VIA about this.  I got an email from someone
I gathered was a company executive, and I signed an NDA to get the
information.  I got a paper document in the mail.

Unfortunately, a few years ago I cleaned out the room where the document
was stored.  As I didn't think it was important at the time, I threw it
away.

I would love to provide a proper citation, but I searched the net and
couldn't find anything to back this up.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 13:20:29 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:20:29 +0100
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000101d0f23e$b3bf0980$1b3d1c80$@gmail.com>

It shows one bid....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Able Baker
> Sent: 18 September 2015 16:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 026
> 
> I bet there were no bids and the seller took it off the auction.Probably was
> too embarrassed to admit what I told them that it had virtually no value (or
> very little)in a non-working condition.  You might see it offered again
> at  much lower price.
>       From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>  To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>  Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
>  Subject: Re: IBM 026
> 
>     > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>     > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>     >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
>     Noel
> 
> 
> 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 13:20:34 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:20:34 +0100
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <270037033.1187841.1442590682255.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201d0f23e$b6c1e940$2445bbc0$@gmail.com>

It shows one bid

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Able Baker
> Sent: 18 September 2015 16:38
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: IBM 026
> 
> I bet there were no bids and the seller took it off the auction.Probably was
> too embarrassed to admit what I told them that it had virtually no value (or
> very little)in a non-working condition.  You might see it offered again
> at  much lower price.
>       From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>  To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>  Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
>  Subject: Re: IBM 026
> 
>     > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>     > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>     >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
>     Noel
> 
> 
> 


From misc4email at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 13:24:17 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:24:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FC4932.90708@jwsss.com>
References: <55FC4932.90708@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <1115223236.1260301.1442600657796.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Don't think it was a 'real' sale.Spoke to seller.Machine needed a lot of work.'Buyer' may also be interested in buying a (Brooklyn) bridge...
      From: jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:26 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   


On 9/18/2015 9:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Well it sold for 899.99$ with one bidder..so it had that value to someone.
Watch the auction seller's feedback.? If you are lucky, the buyer will 
leave feedback and you can see some more info about the buyer at that point.
> /P
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 03:38:02PM +0000, Able Baker wrote:
>> <snip>


>>? ? ? ? From: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>>? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>>? Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:25 AM
>>? Subject: Re: IBM 026
>>? ? 
>>? ? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>>? ? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>? ? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>
>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>>? ? ? Noel
>>
>>
>>
>



  

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Sep 18 13:39:47 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 12:39:47 -0600
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FC5A73.8060505@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/18/2015 7:33 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>> Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
>>> now-days.
>>
>> "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
>> operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
>> "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.
>
> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
> their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case, there is a microcode boot ROM to load
> the microcode from disk, but it is switched out after the microcode is loaded).

VAX and PREQ's are not something I go to Wallmart and pick up for 
$147.95 with some bread and T-shirts.

> -tony
>
Ben.



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 18 14:00:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 12:00:23 -0700
Subject: OT: x86 machine code
In-Reply-To: <86oagzr4js.fsf_-_@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
 <CAMTenCGiJ1qX-exKFaON4Hy9wLNLHaj2W1+y9WP10a52T8XJ-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <86oagzr4js.fsf_-_@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
Message-ID: <55FC5F47.3000602@sydex.com>

On 09/18/2015 11:00 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

> I would love to provide a proper citation, but I searched the net and
> couldn't find anything to back this up.

Too bad--I've got a couple of C3 systems here that might be fun to 
experiment with... (very common processor to find on older thin clients)

--Chuck


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 14:10:03 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:10:03 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <002b01d0f234$eb8e3110$c2aa9330$@gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFy_xXXH9h71mrz=PQ9ABoqE06nY6q0vfm1GwS8DbCY6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <020c01d0f22e$9524aad0$bf6e0070$@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFLvdp=SZ2K79tKGGhamo5mOXERFDKe15qYMhMeQjsa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <002b01d0f234$eb8e3110$c2aa9330$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFNwb-QD9-j2_XKE6VsgXp+qmXQQrBwV7H+USrMCZ3s9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 19:10, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> But you do use a browser.... and all of those have holes...

True, but they do on any OS. There are far fewer 'sploits for OS X or
for Linux than for Windows (e.g. the famed WMF decoder one) -- andf by
avoiding IE or anything that embeds or wraps IE, that reduces the
chances still further.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 14:11:37 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:11:37 +0200
Subject: OT: x86 machine code
In-Reply-To: <86oagzr4js.fsf_-_@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <86twqsq7tc.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
 <CAMTenCGiJ1qX-exKFaON4Hy9wLNLHaj2W1+y9WP10a52T8XJ-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <86oagzr4js.fsf_-_@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFUu1hdp1VmDnh3jhck+OcByptHuPHTFeM=oKUDrNRPTw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 September 2015 at 20:00, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
> No, it was not Crusoe.  I'm fairly sure it was VIA, and less sure it was
> the C3.  Maybe Cyrix?  Whatever was current technology around 2002 I
> guess.
>
> I remember reading the rumour that the RISC instruction set was
> accessible, and I contacted VIA about this.  I got an email from someone
> I gathered was a company executive, and I signed an NDA to get the
> information.  I got a paper document in the mail.
>
> Unfortunately, a few years ago I cleaned out the room where the document
> was stored.  As I didn't think it was important at the time, I threw it
> away.
>
> I would love to provide a proper citation, but I searched the net and
> couldn't find anything to back this up.

Remarkable! OK then. As a journo, and one who doesn't generally sign
NDAs, I would not have met this.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:40:57 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:40:57 -0500
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> Someone asked about uploading the SunOS 4.1 docubox I had scanned, so I
> finally
> got around to doing that today, but discovered that I never scanned the part
> 1,
> just the system calls of 800-3827. I suspect that I never had it. So if
> someone
> has that or a Solaris 1.x docubox a scan would be helpful.

I scanned the 800-3827-10 three-volume set last week:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Sun

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 18 15:43:58 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:43:58 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>

On 9/18/15 1:40 PM, Jason T wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> Someone asked about uploading the SunOS 4.1 docubox I had scanned, so I
>> finally
>> got around to doing that today, but discovered that I never scanned the part
>> 1,
>> just the system calls of 800-3827. I suspect that I never had it. So if
>> someone
>> has that or a Solaris 1.x docubox a scan would be helpful.
>
> I scanned the 800-3827-10 three-volume set last week:
>
> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Sun
>

great timing!
the rest of the set is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1



From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:46:31 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:46:31 -0500
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> great timing!
> the rest of the set is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1

Good deal.  I don't know if I have the full set or not - I suspect
not.  I was given many boxes of Sun binders and I'm slowly working
through them, using your naming convention (more or less.)  Please do
grab and merge any of my scans into Bitsavers.  The more copies out
there, the better.

j

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 18 15:48:01 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:48:01 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>

On 9/18/15 1:46 PM, Jason T wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> great timing!
>> the rest of the set is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1
>
> Good deal.  I don't know if I have the full set or not - I suspect
> not.  I was given many boxes of Sun binders and I'm slowly working
> through them, using your naming convention (more or less.)  Please do
> grab and merge any of my scans into Bitsavers.  The more copies out
> there, the better.
>
> j
>

will do. I'm going to do the 3.5 set next



From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:52:33 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:52:33 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 9/18/15 1:46 PM, Jason T wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> great timing!
>>> the rest of the set is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1
>>>
>>
>> Good deal.  I don't know if I have the full set or not - I suspect
>> not.  I was given many boxes of Sun binders and I'm slowly working
>> through them, using your naming convention (more or less.)  Please do
>> grab and merge any of my scans into Bitsavers.  The more copies out
>> there, the better.
>>
>> j
>>
>>
> will do. I'm going to do the 3.5 set next
>
>
>
I need to check my shelves for specifics, but I have a lot of SunOS
documentation for early releases (1.0-3.0 or so) -- I can scan it if you
don't already have it in the queue...

- Josh

From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:56:09 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:56:09 -0500
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHrAc=RVXbcKsZaLWHEnacki3jXVgvgr-37VOEYVSuLLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to check my shelves for specifics, but I have a lot of SunOS
> documentation for early releases (1.0-3.0 or so) -- I can scan it if you
> don't already have it in the queue...

AFAIK I have nothing pre-4.0 here.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 18 16:16:52 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 14:16:52 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org>

On 9/18/15 1:52 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/18/15 1:46 PM, Jason T wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> great timing!
>>>> the rest of the set is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sunos/4.1
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good deal.  I don't know if I have the full set or not - I suspect
>>> not.  I was given many boxes of Sun binders and I'm slowly working
>>> through them, using your naming convention (more or less.)  Please do
>>> grab and merge any of my scans into Bitsavers.  The more copies out
>>> there, the better.
>>>
>>> j
>>>
>>>
>> will do. I'm going to do the 3.5 set next
>>
>>
>>
> I need to check my shelves for specifics, but I have a lot of SunOS
> documentation for early releases (1.0-3.0 or so) -- I can scan it if you
> don't already have it in the queue...
>
> - Josh
>

I don't have anything for 2.x
There are directories up on bitsavers now for the releases that I have some docs for

Was there ever a release of SunOS 4.1.x documents as Postscript?




From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 18 16:33:20 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:33:20 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FC8320.6010104@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-18 15:33, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>> Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
>>> now-days.
>>
>> "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
>> operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
>> "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.
>
> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
> their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case, there is a microcode boot ROM to load
> the microcode from disk, but it is switched out after the microcode is loaded).

While we're listing things, the VAX-86x0 have the microcode in ram. It 
is loaded from an RL02 at power up, by the PDP-11 front end.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 18 16:38:12 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:38:12 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-18 15:45, tony duell wrote:
>>>
>>> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
>>> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
>>
>> The PDP-11 console loads the microcode from disk then mostly just sits there
>> looking pretty whilst the VAX runs.
>
> The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730 makes do with an
> 8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.

The VAX-11/78x had some microcode on a floppy. Not sure if it was 
required in order to run the machine, or if just a few select bits and 
pieces were on that floppy. It's been way too many years since I touched 
those machines. Maybe someone else will know?

The VAX-11/750 have the microcode in rom, but it has a system by which 
you can patch the microcode. There is some ram, but not enough to hold 
all the microcode. You you can "overwrite" selected addresses of the 
microcode, and this was/is used both by VMS, Ultrix and NetBSD to fix a 
few bugs in the machine.

The VAX-11/730 would have to have the microcode on TU58, as that is the 
console media. Quite possible that it actually do load the microcode 
from there at power up. I've heard that those machine were slow in so 
many ways... :-)

The VAX-86x0 machines have the microcode on the front-end RL02. All of 
it. You want a copy? :-)

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 18 16:42:18 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:42:18 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FC39F9.80805@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC39F9.80805@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FC853A.3050306@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-18 18:21, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/18/2015 08:45 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>>> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for
>>>> me to have time
>>>> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3
>>>> in the next room) have
>>> The PDP-11 console loads the microcode from disk then mostly just
>>> sits there
>>> looking pretty whilst the VAX runs.
>> The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730
>> makes do with an
>> 8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.
>>
>> -tony
>>
> 780's had a board of fixed microcode, and then a WCS board was added in
> later revisions (and all machines in the field had to be upgraded) to
> add some additional code to handle added instructions used by the OS (at
> least for VMS, don't know if BSD used it).  The WCS microcode was in a
> file on the LSI-11's floppy, and it was called in at a certain point of
> the VMS boot sequence.  That caused a line to print during the boot.
> The typical dot matrix printer console on the 780 was also connected
> to/through the LSI-11.

The normal WCS option for the 11/780 was an option. Not everyone had it. 
Were there another option with some WCS that actually everybody had?

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 18 16:43:25 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:43:25 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSiar3u_M=BO4nuG8HULpQfdLobekNYy-nuszfV54V7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAFrGgTSiar3u_M=BO4nuG8HULpQfdLobekNYy-nuszfV54V7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FC857D.3030304@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-18 18:21, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:45 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> The 11/780 has a PDP11 to load the microcode (I think) but the 11/730 makes do with an
>> 8085. After booting I think that handles the console port still.
>
> Most of the 11/780 microcode is in bipolar PROM. There's a small patch
> area which is loaded by the PDP-11.
>
> The 11/785 microcode is entirely in RAM, so it all gets loaded by the PDP-11.

That sounds strange, as the 11/780 and 11/785 are nearly identical 
machines. But I have been wrong before. :-)

	Johnny


From north at alum.mit.edu  Fri Sep 18 18:09:28 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:09:28 -0700
Subject: SIMH PDP-8 question
In-Reply-To: <8674D37AE80E4A7EA4B8F7EEDE8758EE@Vincew7>
References: <D03BBB89B89242EBBB0CA092FFEE5489@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <8674D37AE80E4A7EA4B8F7EEDE8758EE@Vincew7>
Message-ID: <55FC99A8.2060506@alum.mit.edu>

On 9/18/2015 7:08 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
> From: Charles: Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:46 PM
>> Anyway, I'd like to do the same thing in SIMH (get the text file into Focal 
>> and then save it as a Focal program). Is there any way to do this with SIMH? 
>> Can I assign the text file to a paper tape reader, for example?
>
> This should work fairly easily using the high speed paper tape peripherals of 
> SIMH.  You can equip an output file for the punch, punch the "tape", then 
> equip that file for the reader, and I believe the asterisk command or some 
> such Focal feature will read it in.  Save to disk, and you'll have your text 
> file converted.
>
> Low speed paper tape on SIMH is more problematic, as you don't really have an 
> 8 bit channel, flow control isn't implemented, etc.  (At least on the console 
> that is shared with the SIMH command prompt.)
>
>    Vince

I have also used 'expect' to drive SIMH to have my 'expect' robot play 
tic-tac-toe vs the PDP-8 (endlessly ...) and to drive files into FOCAL and BASIC 
from the command line as typed text.

Don



From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Fri Sep 18 18:34:17 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:34:17 +0100
Subject: OT: x86 machine code [Was: Re: Self modifying code,
 lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming]
In-Reply-To: <201509181331.JAA21030@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150918110651.GA28486@Update.UU.SE>
 <201509181331.JAA21030@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <55FC9F79.1080906@ntlworld.com>

On 18/09/15 14:31, Mouse wrote:


> |
> | The single exception is that we will not publish the list  of  "system
> | killers"  outside  of  Digital.  All questions about "system killers",
> | even ones asking if there are any, will be answered "No Comment".  The
> | reason  for  this  is  to  protect  customers  (from  their  users) by
> | providing absolutely no information on the subject.  In addition, this
> | "no  comment"  policy  will  be  published  along  with  the  lists of
> | architecture discrepancies.

> This evidences a vast faith - now shown to be misplaced - in the
> inability of the black hats to discover things without DEC's help; the
> notion that such a policy _would_ protect customers from their users
> depends on DEC being the only source of such information.

I did have access to an internal NOTES conference within DEC that had
some of that sort of information in it. There were details of various ways
in which some VAXes didn't fully adhere to the architecture spec. Some
of these were fixed and some were granted a waiver (i.e. deemed to be a
permitted departure).

I only remember seeing one thing that could be described as a
"system killer" although I don't remember any of the details.
A "system killer", however, was (basically) a way of causing a
hardware error (basically a crash) from user mode. If any existed
then there was basically no way to prevent a user from causing
it to happen. Anything that could be fixed in software didn't count:
that's just a common or garden software bug. Something like
the Intel floating-point bug also wouldn't count (since all you'd
be killing would be your own calculation).

So if there were any "system killers" of that sort DEC would have
a very good reason not to ever discuss them, at least until all the
hardware in the field had been updated. I presume that by the time
that the MicroVAXes started to appear, it would have been prohibitively
expensive to recall a whole class of processor and replace them.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org





From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Fri Sep 18 18:59:01 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:59:01 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150918112538.00CE318C12C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
>     > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>     > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>     >   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
> 	Noel

Yes.  I did.  I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.  Though
i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.

Todd

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 20:10:26 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 01:10:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about $99.99
      From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
* Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:


>? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
> ??? Noel

Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though
i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.

Todd


  

From north at alum.mit.edu  Fri Sep 18 20:33:34 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:33:34 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>

Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable 026 keypunch, 
of which very few still exist.

By your criteria any classic computer is worth well less than $99, as the metal 
content is much smaller than an 026.

And then any car from the 50s or 60s is only worth a few hundred dollars, as 
that is its value in 'scrap metal'.

Lots of objects that exist are worth more than the value of their commodity 
elements.

Your 'scrap value' is about $160 according to this: 
http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/april12011/

On 9/18/2015 6:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about $99.99
>        From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>   To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>   Subject: Re: IBM 026
>     
> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
>
>
>>      > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>>      > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>      >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>
>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>>      Noel
> Yes.  I did.  I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.  Though
> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>
> Todd
>
>
>    
>


From wulfman at wulfman.com  Fri Sep 18 20:42:01 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 18:42:01 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55FCBD69.4020204@wulfman.com>

rule #1
Dont feed the trolls.


On 9/18/2015 6:33 PM, Don North wrote:
> Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable 026
> keypunch, of which very few still exist.
>
> By your criteria any classic computer is worth well less than $99, as
> the metal content is much smaller than an 026.
>
> And then any car from the 50s or 60s is only worth a few hundred
> dollars, as that is its value in 'scrap metal'.
>
> Lots of objects that exist are worth more than the value of their
> commodity elements.
>
> Your 'scrap value' is about $160 according to this:
> http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/april12011/
>
> On 9/18/2015 6:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
>> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only
>> overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth
>> about $99.99
>>        From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>>   To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>>   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>>   Subject: Re: IBM 026
>>     * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
>>
>>
>>>      > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for,
>>> but good
>>>      > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>>      >  http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>>
>>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>>
>>>      Noel
>> Yes.  I did.  I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.  Though
>> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>   
>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 18 20:48:41 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:48:41 -0500
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FC853A.3050306@update.uu.se>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC39F9.80805@pico-systems.com> <55FC853A.3050306@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55FCBEF9.3080309@pico-systems.com>

On 09/18/2015 04:42 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> The normal WCS option for the 11/780 was an option. Not 
> everyone had it. Were there another option with some WCS 
> that actually everybody had?
>
I don't recall clearly whether our 780 (bought about 1980?) 
came with a small WCS or no WCS.
I do remember a big upgrade (glad we had DEC service!) that 
involved upgrading/installing WCS for
some version of VMS to run.  So, after a certain vintage of 
VMS (at least) you HAD to have WCS on the 780.

Jon

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 21:10:23 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 02:10:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
References: <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <586798395.40991.1442628623906.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

How do you know how many still exist?It may be restorable or maybe not.If not, then what is its value?If it is just a display item, then you have to really want to look at it and admire its inherent 'beauty'.If it is restored, then you probably want to exercise its functionality.Maybe punch some Fortran cards and feed them into a 1402 attached to a 1401 and calculate Pi to a million places and print the results on a 1403.Some people have more money than common cents...and are certainly permitted to spend it on anything they want.
Just saying...
      From: Don North <north at alum.mit.edu>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:33 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable 026 keypunch, 
of which very few still exist.

By your criteria any classic computer is worth well less than $99, as the metal 
content is much smaller than an 026.

And then any car from the 50s or 60s is only worth a few hundred dollars, as 
that is its value in 'scrap metal'.

Lots of objects that exist are worth more than the value of their commodity 
elements.

Your 'scrap value' is about $160 according to this: 
http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/april12011/



On 9/18/2015 6:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about $99.99
>? ? ? ? From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>? Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>? Subject: Re: IBM 026
>? ? 
> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
>
>
>>? ? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
>>? ? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>? ? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>
>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>>? ? ? Noel
> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though
> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>
> Todd
>
>
>? ? 
>



  

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 18 21:12:11 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 02:12:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FCBD69.4020204@wulfman.com>
References: <55FCBD69.4020204@wulfman.com>
Message-ID: <548401512.41476.1442628731645.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Why not?
How do you know how many still exist?It may be restorable or maybe not.If not, then what is its value?If it is just a display item, then you have to really want to look at it and admire its inherent 'beauty'.If it is restored, then you probably want to exercise its functionality.Maybe punch some Fortran cards and feed them into a 1402 attached to a 1401 and calculate Pi to a million places and print the results on a 1403.Some people have more money than common cents...and are certainly permitted to spend it on anything they want.
Just saying...

      From: wulfman <wulfman at wulfman.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:42 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
rule #1
Dont feed the trolls.




On 9/18/2015 6:33 PM, Don North wrote:
> Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable 026
> keypunch, of which very few still exist.
>
> By your criteria any classic computer is worth well less than $99, as
> the metal content is much smaller than an 026.
>
> And then any car from the 50s or 60s is only worth a few hundred
> dollars, as that is its value in 'scrap metal'.
>
> Lots of objects that exist are worth more than the value of their
> commodity elements.
>
> Your 'scrap value' is about $160 according to this:
> http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/april12011/
>
> On 9/18/2015 6:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
>> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only
>> overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth
>> about $99.99
>>? ? ? ? From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>>? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>>? Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>>? Subject: Re: IBM 026
>>? ? * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
>>
>>
>>>? ? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for,
>>> but good
>>>? ? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
>>>? ? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>>
>>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>>
>>>? ? ? Noel
>> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though
>> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>? 
>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.



  

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 18 21:16:25 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:16:25 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55FCC579.6090607@sydex.com>

On 09/18/2015 06:33 PM, Don North wrote:
> Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable
> 026 keypunch, of which very few still exist.


There had to be many more 029s than 026s made.  Yet I've never seen a 
lot of them offered.   I'd much rather use an 029 than an 026--given the 
number made, why doesn't the proportion of existing keypunches reflect that?

I do recall seeing surplused 026s with the MAI label on them (this was 
before the Basic Four days).

--Chuck



From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 21:55:36 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:55:36 -0500
Subject: DEC RX8-E, M8316, M8317, M8365, M8366
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuP=6G+T3v2N6NUwPU+OYSdf2jsmvkgN2KEMXP75oG9vMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuP=6G+T3v2N6NUwPU+OYSdf2jsmvkgN2KEMXP75oG9vMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMWrNN9RYO-1GDjpsCp0vEmRd2Q6P5D+nCMZN6nNzKegQ@mail.gmail.com>

Update-

M8316- $175
M8365  $100 LC8-E     LA180 interface Good to hack for output device
M8366  $100 LQP8-E  LQP01 printer interface, also good for hacking

Both printer interfaces are probably NOS, still in the dec box, if my
workers didn't move them again...




On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a limited of M8357, RX8-Es for sale, first come, first served, for
> $175.
>
> I think I found the M8316, M8317, LQP01 interface, and LA180 interface,
> and will try to post a price in the next few days.
>
> Shipping within US is $10 for up to 10.  Shipping from 61853.
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 18 23:51:00 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:51:00 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> The VAX-11/730 would have to have the microcode on TU58, as that is the
> console media. Quite possible that it actually do load the microcode
> from there at power up. I've heard that those machine were slow in so
> many ways... :-)

The 11/730 has no microcode ROM as far as I can see. However part of the
instruction decoding is done in hardware, so implementing a totally different
instruction set would be inefficient

The craziest thing I have found in the 11/730 is that the control store is 
dynamic RAM (lots of 16K*1 chips). Every few milliseconds the CPU is 
halted while the control store is refreshed. There is space for 4K more
of control store (1K of that is fitted if you have the integrated disk
controller or floating point board) which is SRAM. Quite why the whole
lot isn't SRAM is beyond me.

-tony

From north at alum.mit.edu  Sat Sep 19 00:10:45 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:10:45 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FCEE55.3000103@alum.mit.edu>

On 9/18/2015 9:51 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> The VAX-11/730 would have to have the microcode on TU58, as that is the
>> console media. Quite possible that it actually do load the microcode
>> from there at power up. I've heard that those machine were slow in so
>> many ways... :-)
> The 11/730 has no microcode ROM as far as I can see. However part of the
> instruction decoding is done in hardware, so implementing a totally different
> instruction set would be inefficient
>
> The craziest thing I have found in the 11/730 is that the control store is
> dynamic RAM (lots of 16K*1 chips). Every few milliseconds the CPU is
> halted while the control store is refreshed. There is space for 4K more
> of control store (1K of that is fitted if you have the integrated disk
> controller or floating point board) which is SRAM. Quite why the whole
> lot isn't SRAM is beyond me.
>
> -tony

Simple answer. The control store functionality had to fit in the available space 
on one hex
sized card, and 16K density DRAM was the only option. Allocating additional 
space to use
4K or 1K SRAM would have pushed the CPU design to an additional board, which was not
a design option at the time.

Don


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 19 00:15:06 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:15:06 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FCEE55.3000103@alum.mit.edu>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FCEE55.3000103@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F0B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> 
> Simple answer. The control store functionality had to fit in the available space
> on one hex
> sized card, and 16K density DRAM was the only option. Allocating additional
> space to use
> 4K or 1K SRAM would have pushed the CPU design to an additional board, which was not
> a design option at the time.

The 11/730 was released in 1982 (according to Wikipedia which I don't take a gospel, but
I have no other source of information for this). The PERQ 1a was certainly out by then, it had
a control store using 16K*1 SRAM chips. OK 20 pin as against 16 pin packages, but I don't
think the 11/730 boards are that tighly packed (anyway, using SRAM would probably have
eliminated some support devices like address multiplexers).

-tony

From north at alum.mit.edu  Sat Sep 19 01:37:09 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:37:09 -0700
Subject: VAX 730 was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC
 programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F0B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FCEE55.3000103@alum.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F0B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FD0295.20501@alum.mit.edu>

On 9/18/2015 10:15 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> Simple answer. The control store functionality had to fit in the available space
>> on one hex
>> sized card, and 16K density DRAM was the only option. Allocating additional
>> space to use
>> 4K or 1K SRAM would have pushed the CPU design to an additional board, which was not
>> a design option at the time.
> The 11/730 was released in 1982 (according to Wikipedia which I don't take a gospel, but
> I have no other source of information for this). The PERQ 1a was certainly out by then, it had
> a control store using 16K*1 SRAM chips. OK 20 pin as against 16 pin packages, but I don't
> think the 11/730 boards are that tighly packed (anyway, using SRAM would probably have
> eliminated some support devices like address multiplexers).
>
> -tony

Yes it was released in mid--1982 (that is correct) but the architecture started 
in 1977 and the first proto was built in 1979. By 1980 the design was finalized 
and multiple copies were being built and distributed to software development.

Documented here: 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/730/memos/730_Business_Plan_Phase_III_Oct82.pdf
Page 8 has a detailed timeline. So the 730 was implemented based on the 
technology available in late 79 or so.

The biggest risk I remember from the 730 design (I worked in the same hardware 
lab, different project: 11/74 CIS) was the extensive use of PALs. This was the 
first (I believe) project at DEC to use them, and they were basically buying all 
the devices MMI could produce. It was one of the limiting factors determining 
the number of prototypes that could be built.

Other projects (like the one I was working on) wanted to use PALs, but we 
couldn't because they were all allocated to the 730 project.




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 02:07:53 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 08:07:53 +0100
Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of
 early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
In-Reply-To: <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150917123925.EDB1218C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FAEDDB.1080801@pico-systems.com> <55FAF87E.2060207@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <031201d0f2a9$e7d894f0$b789bed0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby
Thain
> Sent: 17 September 2015 18:30
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; General at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Immutability - was Re: ENIAC programming Was: release dates of
> early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS
> 
> On 2015-09-17 12:44 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >
> >>      > From: Dave Wade
> >>
> >>
> >>      > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable
> >>      > calculator even if it has index registers...
> >>
> >>
> > Most modern computer languages run with the executable instructions in
> > a "pure code" section, which is set to be NOT writeable by the program.
> > This avoids a LOT of simple mistakes and REALLY hard to find program
> > crashes.
> > This is true of MS, Linux/Unix and the VMS program environment that I
> > have used for about 40 years.  I think you have to go back to maybe
> > Windows 95 or RT-11 to not have that protection.

Actually not (quite).  The true virtual machines in NT builds of Windows and
Linux protect programs from each other. So you can't damage someone else's
code...
but I believe that you could still load code into the data area and execute
it.. up until about 10 years ago when DEP was introduced....

http://malwaremusings.com/2012/10/13/self-modifying-code-changing-memory-pro
tection/

and if your code is running with admin rights on Windows you can use the
"VirtualProtect" interface  to allow you to write self-modifying code.....

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366898(v=vs.85).a
spx

Of course this is part of the reason we have all these problems with Buffer
Overrun.....


> 
> Modern languages extend this "protection" further, to the programmer
> model, with immutable bindings and data structures, shunning variables
> entirely.
> 
> --Toby
> 
> >
> > Jon
> >

Dave


From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Sep 19 03:12:57 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 01:12:57 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FCC579.6090607@sydex.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu> <55FCC579.6090607@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FD1909.1030500@jwsss.com>

I have one each of 029 and 129.  I was never that impressed with the 026 
to pursue one.

The 029 is in a state of disrepair, complete, the 129 is running when I 
turn it on.

thanks
Jim

On 9/18/2015 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/18/2015 06:33 PM, Don North wrote:
>> Lucky it is not just scrap metal then, it is a probably restorable
>> 026 keypunch, of which very few still exist.
>
>
> There had to be many more 029s than 026s made.  Yet I've never seen a 
> lot of them offered.   I'd much rather use an 029 than an 026--given 
> the number made, why doesn't the proportion of existing keypunches 
> reflect that?
>
> I do recall seeing surplused 026s with the MAI label on them (this was 
> before the Basic Four days).
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 19 04:25:29 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:25:29 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>


On 18/09/2015 14:33, tony duell wrote:
>>> Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM
>>> now-days.
>> "Now-days"?  There are some that do that, some of which are still in
>> operational shape.  Some VAXen, in particular, have something called
>> "writable control store", which is essentially microcode RAM.
> As far as I know, the VAX11/730 (There is one next to me waiting for me to have time
> to restore it) has the microcode entirely in RAM. Classic PERQs (3 in the next room) have
> their microcode entirely in RAM too (in that case, there is a microcode boot ROM to load
> the microcode from disk, but it is switched out after the microcode is loaded).
>
>
> -tony

Is an overlay self modifyig code?

Rod

-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981
          KK8-E   M8300
          KK8-E   M8310
          KK8-E   M8320
          KK8-E   M8330


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 19 05:53:36 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:53:36 +0000
Subject: VAX 730 was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re:
 ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FD0295.20501@alum.mit.edu>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150918134537.GA14384@night.db.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4D04@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FC8444.2010606@update.uu.se>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4EE8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FCEE55.3000103@alum.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F0B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FD0295.20501@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F2E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> The biggest risk I remember from the 730 design (I worked in the same hardware
> lab, different project: 11/74 CIS) was the extensive use of PALs. This was the
> first (I believe) project at DEC to use them, and they were basically buying all

It may well have been. Certainly the 11/730 is full of PALs, this is how (I think) they got
a complete VAX CPU onto 3 hex boards using standard ICs. The only custom parts (as
opposed to custom programmed parts) in there are the 2 gate arrays for the memory
ECC which are the same as the ones in an 11/750.

DEC were also using the 82S100 PLA at around that time. Whether it was first used 
before the 11/730 I don't know (I suspect it was). 

Don't get me wrong, I like the 11/730, and apart from the use of DRAM for the 
control store I think it is a very interesting and neat design. It is one of only 2
VAX families I would consider trying to run, and due to space constraints it's the 
only one I can run (the other being the 11/780, and no way do I have room for one
of those).

-tony

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat Sep 19 08:03:46 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 09:03:46 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>


> On Sep 19, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> Is an overlay self modifyig code?

Yes (#2 in my list), but a controlled kind so it doesn't suffer from the maintainability issues of explicitly modified instructions.  But it does require I-cache management, if the computer has an I-cache.  Not all that likely; a machine small enough that overlays are valuable isn't all that likely to have an I-cache.

	paul


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 19 10:02:22 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:02:22 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>



On 19/09/2015 14:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Sep 19, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is an overlay self modifyig code?
> Yes (#2 in my list), but a controlled kind so it doesn't suffer from the maintainability issues of explicitly modified instructions.  But it does require I-cache management, if the computer has an I-cache.  Not all that likely; a machine small enough that overlays are valuable isn't all that likely to have an I-cache.
>
> 	paul
>
Its a while back but I seem to remember in BASIC you replaced a set of 
line numbers with another of the same range but different code.

Rod

-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981
          KK8-E   M8300
          KK8-E   M8310
          KK8-E   M8320
          KK8-E   M8330


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 19 10:50:04 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:50:04 -0500
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <13F7F15BB975437D851443A5E5FA409F@CharlesHPLaptop>

Some years ago I recall reading about possibly modifying TSS/8 to run on 
more recent disks instead of the ancient DF32 (a whopping 32Kword fixed head 
disk with up to three more slaved platters).
Did anyone actually implement the changes? I know it wouldn't work well on a 
moving-head disk without significant changes, because the swapping is more 
or less constant.
-Charles


From wilson at dbit.com  Sat Sep 19 11:44:04 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:44:04 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <13F7F15BB975437D851443A5E5FA409F@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <13F7F15BB975437D851443A5E5FA409F@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <20150919164404.GA5426@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 10:50:04AM -0500, Charles wrote:
>Some years ago I recall reading about possibly modifying TSS/8 to run on more
>recent disks instead of the ancient DF32 (a whopping 32Kword fixed head disk
>with up to three more slaved platters).

Or the RF08/RS08 -- luxurious compared to a DF32/DS32!

>Did anyone actually implement the changes? I know it wouldn't work well on a
>moving-head disk without significant changes, because the swapping is more or
>less constant.

A zillion years ago, the DECUS library had a TSS/8 hack to make it run
on an RK05 (as the only disk I mean -- later TSS/8s already supported RKs
as data disks, unless I've gone senile).  No idea how they managed that --
the wordiness of the DF/RF controllers penetrates deep into TSS/8's soul.
Maybe RFILE/WFILE weren't done compatibly with vanilla TSS/8?  Dunno.

John Wilson [0,3]@SID
D Bit

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Sep 19 11:46:31 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:46:31 -0500
Subject: DG S/130 front panel switches?
Message-ID: <001501d0f2fa$bdcbf2f0$3963d8d0$@classiccmp.org>

So does anyone have a trashed/dead front panel for a Data General S/130
(S/200 would also work) that can be a donor? All I need are two
switches/paddles/Covers, but my S/200 front panel is perfect so I don't want
to rob from that for the S/130 project. One light blue, one dark blue...
Crossing my fingers.....

J



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 11:48:33 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:48:33 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <2ff7cf.454dfa5e.432eebe1@aol.com>

Seems  like a  ssd  would  make an ideal    fixed head  replacement if it 
has  to swap swap swap all   the  time?
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 9:44:07 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
wilson at dbit.com writes:

On Sat,  Sep 19, 2015 at 10:50:04AM -0500, Charles wrote:
>Some years ago I  recall reading about possibly modifying TSS/8 to run on 
more
>recent  disks instead of the ancient DF32 (a whopping 32Kword fixed head  
disk
>with up to three more slaved platters).

Or the RF08/RS08 --  luxurious compared to a DF32/DS32!

>Did anyone actually implement  the changes? I know it wouldn't work well 
on a
>moving-head disk without  significant changes, because the swapping is 
more or
>less  constant.

A zillion years ago, the DECUS library had a TSS/8 hack to  make it run
on an RK05 (as the only disk I mean -- later TSS/8s already  supported RKs
as data disks, unless I've gone senile).  No idea how  they managed that --
the wordiness of the DF/RF controllers penetrates deep  into TSS/8's soul.
Maybe RFILE/WFILE weren't done compatibly with vanilla  TSS/8?  Dunno.

John Wilson [0,3]@SID
D  Bit


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Sep 19 11:54:02 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:54:02 -0500
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <2ff7cf.454dfa5e.432eebe1@aol.com>
References: <2ff7cf.454dfa5e.432eebe1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001601d0f2fb$ca492a10$5edb7e30$@classiccmp.org>

Ed wrote....
----
Seems  like a  ssd  would  make an ideal    fixed head  replacement if it
has  to swap swap swap all   the  time?
----

O.O

J



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 11:55:14 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:55:14 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <2ffb55.219bad92.432eed72@aol.com>

what is a  O.O
jay?
 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 9:54:12 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

Ed  wrote....
----
Seems  like a  ssd  would  make an  ideal    fixed head  replacement if it
has  to swap  swap swap all   the   time?
----

O.O

J




From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 12:15:46 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:15:46 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 September 2015 at 17:02, Rod Smallwood
<rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Its a while back but I seem to remember in BASIC you replaced a set of line
> numbers with another of the same range but different code.

Blimey, I've never seen that.

I do remember that ZX BASIC had a cool-but-dangerous feature: you
could get it to evaluate an arbitrary string as if it were an
expression. This meant you could do cool things in BASIC programs --
enter formulae such as "2*4+3.5" when the program wanted a numeric
value, for instance.

Then a friend showed me that you could also access the program's own
variables. If the program had variables called a, b & c, you could
also enter "a*b+c" and it would use the values.

Which meant that if it /didn't/ have such variables, the program would
crash out with an "unknown variable name" error... a sort of early
"exploit".



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Sat Sep 19 12:31:58 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:31:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509191227560.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015, Able Baker wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Todd Goodman wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>>>> Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good 
>>>> enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money: 
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>>
>>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though 
>> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only 
> overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about 
> $99.99

If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 12:34:20 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:34:20 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55FD9C9C.8020304@gmail.com>



On 9/18/15 2:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/18/15 1:52 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I need to check my shelves for specifics, but I have a lot of SunOS
>> documentation for early releases (1.0-3.0 or so) -- I can scan it if you
>> don't already have it in the queue...
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>
> I don't have anything for 2.x
> There are directories up on bitsavers now for the releases that I have 
> some docs for
>
> Was there ever a release of SunOS 4.1.x documents as Postscript?
>
>
>
>

Checked my shelves last night, as far as stuff that doesn't overlap with 
what you already have: I have a doc set for SunOS 1.0, a few things for 
1.4, and a mostly-complete set for 2.0, along with a few bits of 
miscellanea.  I also have a ton of stuff for 3.0, I'll see if there's 
anything I have that isn't already on Bitsavers.

- Josh

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 12:44:28 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:44:28 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FD9C9C.8020304@gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org> <55FD9C9C.8020304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FD9EFC.7010203@bitsavers.org>

On 9/19/15 10:34 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>
> I also have a ton of stuff for 3.0, I'll see if there's anything I have that isn't already on Bitsavers.
>

I'm working through 3.0, 4.0, and 4.1.1 this morning.

2.x would be good to scan.

Is the KV-S3065W working OK? I still need to write you with my workflow, though it is a bit baroque. I like
to use an ancient scanning app written for W98 and ISIS drivers because of the way that it names the resulting
pages, tumble to create the pdf, then Acrobat Pro 9 to OCR.

You'll find the color dropout handy if you ever have to deal with a document that someone took highlighter to.

Getting good results at 600dpi can be tricky since it the sensors seem to be noisy doing B&W. I have the service
manual and the service app, but have never tried adjusting the levels on the contact image sensors.

About the only thing that wears out are the rollers and the clear plastic covers over the CISs (they get scratched).
I've run literally millions of pages through them. The rollers are expensive ($300 for a kit).
The retard roller (PJDRC0054Y) wears down first, that is about $100.





From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Sep 19 12:45:02 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:45:02 -0400
Subject: eval() considered dodgy - Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
 - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FD9F1E.6010006@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-19 1:15 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 19 September 2015 at 17:02, Rod Smallwood
> <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Its a while back but I seem to remember in BASIC you replaced a set of line
>> numbers with another of the same range but different code.
>
> Blimey, I've never seen that.
>
> I do remember that ZX BASIC had a cool-but-dangerous feature: you
> could get it to evaluate an arbitrary string as if it were an
> expression. This meant you could do cool things in BASIC programs --
> enter formulae such as "2*4+3.5" when the program wanted a numeric
> value, for instance.
>
> Then a friend showed me that you could also access the program's own
> variables. If the program had variables called a, b & c, you could
> also enter "a*b+c" and it would use the values.
>
> Which meant that if it /didn't/ have such variables, the program would
> crash out with an "unknown variable name" error... a sort of early
> "exploit".
>
>
>

Thank God nobody would build such a thing into a modern language, 
especially not the one that runs in almost every browser...

--Toby


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 12:45:46 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:46 -0700
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <20150919164404.GA5426@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <13F7F15BB975437D851443A5E5FA409F@CharlesHPLaptop>
 <20150919164404.GA5426@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <55FD9F4A.7000502@bitsavers.org>

On 9/19/15 9:44 AM, John Wilson wrote:
> later TSS/8s already supported RKs
> as data disks, unless I've gone senile).  No idea how they managed that --
>

UW-M's TSS/8 supported that. It should be in the monitor sources that we read.





From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 12:49:38 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:49:38 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>

I  would  think  the  fixed  head   media  swapped  faster than the RK's  
unlessthee   fixed  head  media  was really  slow...  Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 10:45:53 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
aek at bitsavers.org writes:

On  9/19/15 9:44 AM, John Wilson wrote:
> later TSS/8s already supported  RKs
> as data disks, unless I've gone senile).  No idea how they  managed that 
--
>

UW-M's TSS/8 supported that. It should be in  the monitor sources that we  
read.






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 19 12:53:36 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 17:53:36 +0000
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>,
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > Its a while back but I seem to remember in BASIC you replaced a set of line
> > numbers with another of the same range but different code.
> 
> Blimey, I've never seen that.

A lot of disk-based BASICs had a statement that would merge a program from
disk in this way. Sometimes the program had to be saved in ASCII, not tokenised,
the BASIC interpretter then essentially read the file as if you were typing it on the
keyboard. So program lines would indeed replace those with the same line number.

One of the extension ROMs for HPL on the HP9825 (a BASIC-like language) had 
a command to store a string as a program line. It could be used within a program,
thus leading to an official way to have self-modifying code.

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep 19 13:03:46 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:03:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning
Message-ID: <20150919180346.D2B3218C138@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    >> From: Jerome H. Fine

    >> a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are
    >> available to be viewed would be appreciated.

    > I should probably throw together a web page with links to all the
    > PDP-11 files there (e.g. the one I just put together, of print sets
    > that are available inside other print sets), and link to that from my
    > home page.

OK, done:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html

I'll update it anything I put up anything else. Anyone and everyone is free,
nay urged, to mirror any of the material that page links to on their own
sites.

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Sep 19 13:10:07 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:10:07 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FD1909.1030500@jwsss.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FCBB6E.4030100@alum.mit.edu> <55FCC579.6090607@sydex.com>
 <55FD1909.1030500@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <55FDA4FF.207@sydex.com>

On 09/19/2015 01:12 AM, jwsmobile wrote:
> I have one each of 029 and 129.  I was never that impressed with the
> 026 to pursue one.
>
> The 029 is in a state of disrepair, complete, the 129 is running when
> I turn it on.

If you had a room full of 029, 026 and 024 keypunches, which would be 
used first?  My money's on the 029, then the 026 and finally the 024, 
unless there were some overriding requirement for the older character 
set over, say, an EBCDIC-equipped 029 (not all 029s punched EBCDIC).

--Chuck


From wilson at dbit.com  Sat Sep 19 13:12:24 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 14:12:24 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 01:49:38PM -0400, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
>I  would  think  the  fixed  head   media  swapped  faster than the RK's  
>unlessthee   fixed  head  media  was really  slow...  Ed#

The DS/RS disks certainly weren't slow ... but an RK could still be fast
enough to be useful.  I'm thinking the hard part would be shoveling out
enough space for a sector buffer, so that it could do word insert/extract
operations and make the RFILE/WFILE calls still act more or less like the
DMAR/DMAW instructions on the DF/RF.  My understanding is that RKs as
data disks used different calls (and weren't file-structured).

John Wilson
D Bit

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 14:29:01 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:29:01 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FD9EFC.7010203@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org> <55FD9C9C.8020304@gmail.com>
 <55FD9EFC.7010203@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55FDB77D.7020407@gmail.com>



On 9/19/15 10:44 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/19/15 10:34 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>
>> I also have a ton of stuff for 3.0, I'll see if there's anything I 
>> have that isn't already on Bitsavers.
>>
>
> I'm working through 3.0, 4.0, and 4.1.1 this morning.
>
> 2.x would be good to scan.

Cool, I'll do that.  Looks like I have stuff for a few different 2.X 
revisions.

I also have a lot of 1.1 stuff; considerably more than is on Bitsavers 
right now -- do you have more left to scan for that?

I also have a dozen or so Software Technical Bulletins from 1986-1989 or 
so -- SunOS 3.x era (not a complete set).  Any interest there?


>
> Is the KV-S3065W working OK? I still need to write you with my 
> workflow, though it is a bit baroque. I like
> to use an ancient scanning app written for W98 and ISIS drivers 
> because of the way that it names the resulting
> pages, tumble to create the pdf, then Acrobat Pro 9 to OCR.
Yes, it does seem to be working ok, though I haven't done much with it 
yet, just scanned in a few hundred pages of a random manual just to try 
it out.  Looking forward to seeing details on your workflow.

>
> You'll find the color dropout handy if you ever have to deal with a 
> document that someone took highlighter to.
>
> Getting good results at 600dpi can be tricky since it the sensors seem 
> to be noisy doing B&W. I have the service
> manual and the service app, but have never tried adjusting the levels 
> on the contact image sensors.
>
> About the only thing that wears out are the rollers and the clear 
> plastic covers over the CISs (they get scratched).
> I've run literally millions of pages through them. The rollers are 
> expensive ($300 for a kit).
> The retard roller (PJDRC0054Y) wears down first, that is about $100.
>

Cool.  Any recommendations for places to purchase spares from?  The 
rollers in mine are a bit dirty, but they seem to have cleaned up OK and 
i haven't had any jams or problems with paper feeding (fingers crossed), 
but I'm sure I'll need them sooner or later.

- Josh



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 14:30:13 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:30:13 -0700
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
 <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>

On 9/19/15 11:12 AM, John Wilson wrote:
> but an RK could still be fast
> enough to be useful.

When did the 4K user space(s?) actually swap? Did they round-robin or swap
based on activity? I would think they would stay in place until cpu-bound
jobs reached their time quantum. With only a couple of people on a 32k
machine, it may not even swap that much, depending on what the users were
running. I'd guess BASIC was pretty big.





From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 14:37:34 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:37:34 -0700
Subject: ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one
In-Reply-To: <55FDB77D.7020407@gmail.com>
References: <55FC4BA5.9010208@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEjh_r56eyMpG-jBNz9-dJw6HtzABiAJh8qRbxAp_3WsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC778E.4070201@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEfH1SEmnbmz1vduVcgA357KeBg+awTCeOuMWmJfxM1SfCOZLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7881.30803@bitsavers.org>
 <CADBZjLY79XTm2DJOU93Rmm81YDyivM60iR9-FFuYdh8ALW4L_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FC7F44.2010500@bitsavers.org> <55FD9C9C.8020304@gmail.com>
 <55FD9EFC.7010203@bitsavers.org> <55FDB77D.7020407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FDB97E.3090009@bitsavers.org>

On 9/19/15 12:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> I also have a lot of 1.1 stuff; considerably more than is on Bitsavers right now -- do you have more left to scan for that?
>

I thought I did, but it isn't in the sun to-do directory

> I also have a dozen or so Software Technical Bulletins from 1986-1989 or so -- SunOS 3.x era (not a complete set).  Any interest there?
>

yes, don't think I've ever seen those


> Cool.  Any recommendations for places to purchase spares from?

Not really, There are a lot of places that carry parts, and their prices vary a LOT.
Panasonic used to have a direct-sales site in Illinois, but I don't see it coming
up on line now.

The rollers should clean up easily. The thing I've seen is the rubber swells over time.
Thinking about it now, I haven't tried reducing the paper thickness with the knob on the
side or tried sanding the rollers so they were flat again.

There was a version on the earlier models that used silicone rubber, but those got stiff
over time and stopped gripping paper.




From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 14:47:07 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:47:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509191227560.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509191227560.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <1121301038.200312.1442692027282.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

who should have bought it?
      From: Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:31 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015, Able Baker wrote:


> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Todd Goodman wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>>>> Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good 
>>>> enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money: 
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
>>>
>>> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
>>
>> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though 
>> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
>
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only 
> overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about 
> $99.99

If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.


  

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 15:44:40 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:44:40 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1121301038.200312.1442692027282.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509191227560.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <1121301038.200312.1442692027282.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>



> If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.
>

The only posts from "Able Baker" (whoever THAT might be) going back six years have been about the keypunch
Dont' feed the troll






From wilson at dbit.com  Sat Sep 19 15:45:44 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:45:44 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
 <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com>
 <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150919204544.GA13837@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 12:30:13PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
>When did the 4K user space(s?) actually swap? Did they round-robin or swap
>based on activity? I would think they would stay in place until cpu-bound
>jobs reached their time quantum. With only a couple of people on a 32k
>machine, it may not even swap that much, depending on what the users were
>running. I'd guess BASIC was pretty big.

My understanding is that it's round-robin among runnable jobs, one time
slice at a time.  I.e. the simplest possible way.  IIRC the monitor always
takes up two fields (not swappable).  One more field (so, 12 KW total) is
the minimum necessary to run at all -- SI, FIP, and all the users can share
that field with frantic enough swapping (which causes a pretty lights show
on the RF08 panel).  Any more memory than that means less swapping (or
none), so it's kicking out the LRU job as needed.  I have a hazy memory
that SI and FIP *only* run in field 2?  Could be wrong.

BASIC runs in your 4 KW with you.  I've never seen its sources so I don't
know how clever it is about overlays and/or keeping your program on disk.
It's a very limited BASIC.  Strings are 6 characters.  Not max -- *always* 6.
Line #s max out at 2046.

John Wilson
D Bit

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 19 15:50:00 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:50:00 -0700
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <20150919204544.GA13837@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
 <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com> <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
 <20150919204544.GA13837@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <55FDCA78.9020104@bitsavers.org>

On 9/19/15 1:45 PM, John Wilson wrote:

> BASIC runs in your 4 KW with you.  I've never seen its sources

The source is in with the UWM stuff. Look under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/ascii/basic


/TSS/8 BASIC COMPILER   (BASCOM) VERSION 18
/
/REVISION: 13-AUG-71		IDC/GWB/PJK
/
/COPYRIGHT 1969, 1970, 1971	DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP.
/				MAYNARD, MASSACHUSETTS
/
/ORIGINALLY WRITTEN BY:
/	INFORMATION DEVELOPMENT CORP.
/	DEDHAM, MASS.
/




From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat Sep 19 16:12:15 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 17:12:15 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <64254.7872eca4.432f29af@aol.com>

there  was a time   I  really  wanted a tss  8  system  to  use and even 
started colleting stuff for it in the  late 70s  but  along  came the  2000 f  
HP  system I bought and I headed  in that  direction..  which  gave be  an 
HP destiny  not  a DEC Destiny.   but   still  ... would love  to  find a  
tss-8 all  together in the racks as  used back then... Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2015 1:45:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
wilson at dbit.com writes:

On Sat,  Sep 19, 2015 at 12:30:13PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
>When did the 4K user  space(s?) actually swap? Did they round-robin or swap
>based on  activity? I would think they would stay in place until cpu-bound
>jobs  reached their time quantum. With only a couple of people on a  32k
>machine, it may not even swap that much, depending on what the  users were
>running. I'd guess BASIC was pretty big.

My  understanding is that it's round-robin among runnable jobs, one time
slice  at a time.  I.e. the simplest possible way.  IIRC the monitor  always
takes up two fields (not swappable).  One more field (so, 12 KW  total) is
the minimum necessary to run at all -- SI, FIP, and all the users  can share
that field with frantic enough swapping (which causes a pretty  lights show
on the RF08 panel).  Any more memory than that means less  swapping (or
none), so it's kicking out the LRU job as needed.  I have  a hazy memory
that SI and FIP *only* run in field 2?  Could be  wrong.

BASIC runs in your 4 KW with you.  I've never seen its  sources so I don't
know how clever it is about overlays and/or keeping your  program on disk.
It's a very limited BASIC.  Strings are 6  characters.  Not max -- *always* 
6.
Line #s max out at  2046.

John Wilson
D  Bit


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Sep 19 16:30:16 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 15:30:16 -0600
Subject: eval() considered dodgy - Re: Self modifying code, lambda
 calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FD9F1E.6010006@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FD9F1E.6010006@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <55FDD3E8.4070901@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/19/2015 11:45 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

>
> Thank God nobody would build such a thing into a modern language,
> especially not the one that runs in almost every browser...

No it just crashes when the AD server or Flash stops.

> --Toby
Ben.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Sep 19 16:32:53 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 15:32:53 -0600
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
 <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com> <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55FDD485.5070908@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/19/2015 1:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/19/15 11:12 AM, John Wilson wrote:
>> but an RK could still be fast
>> enough to be useful.
>
> When did the 4K user space(s?) actually swap? Did they round-robin or swap
> based on activity? I would think they would stay in place until cpu-bound
> jobs reached their time quantum. With only a couple of people on a 32k
> machine, it may not even swap that much, depending on what the users were
> running. I'd guess BASIC was pretty big.
>
Swapping was created I thought so you could run with only a few K of memory.
Ben.



From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 17:10:52 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 22:10:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
References: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Not feeding?a supernatural being from?Norse mythology?is your suggestion??Good idea.?
      From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 4:44 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   




> If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.
>

The only posts from "Able Baker" (whoever THAT might be) going back six years have been about the keypunch
Dont' feed the troll







  

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 17:35:51 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 15:35:51 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>

Todd,
Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. Saving
substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in time and
money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks for
taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I would
be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional now). 
Marc

======================================

Message: 27
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: IBM 026
Message-ID: <20150918235900.GF30683 at ns1.bonedaddy.net>


* Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]: 
> So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> 
> 	Noel

Yes.  I did.  I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.  Though
i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.

Todd


From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Sep 19 18:32:03 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:32:03 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
 <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>

XYZZY.  hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.

Plugh  (for good measure)

On 9/19/2015 3:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
> Not feeding a supernatural being from Norse mythology is your suggestion??Good idea.
>        From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
>   To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>   Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 4:44 PM
>   Subject: Re: IBM 026
>     
>
>
>
>
>> If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.
>>
> The only posts from "Able Baker" (whoever THAT might be) going back six years have been about the keypunch
> Dont' feed the troll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>
>


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Sep 19 18:34:44 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 16:34:44 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
References: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
 <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <B40464CF-FB5E-47E5-858F-246AEED14EF5@nf6x.net>


> On Sep 19, 2015, at 16:32 , jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> 
> XYZZY.  hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
> 
> Plugh  (for good measure)

LOL!

I'm not in equipment acquisition mode at the moment, but I wouldn't mind having a nice keypunch someday. And a pinball machine, too!



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sat Sep 19 18:41:43 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:41:43 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

You're an ass.

I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.

It's "common sense."

I don't give a rat's ass what it's worth as scrap.

* Able Baker <misc4email at yahoo.com> [150918 21:10]:
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about $99.99
>       From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>  To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
>  Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>  Subject: Re: IBM 026
>    
> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
> 
> 
> >? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good
> >? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> >? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> > 
> > So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> > 
> > ??? Noel
> 
> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? Though
> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
>   

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Sep 19 18:41:54 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 18:41:54 -0500
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
Message-ID: <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>


Marc wrote...
----
Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. 
----
Ditto. Offlist email sent.

----
Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in
time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks
for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I
would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional
now). 
----
Agreed. I've always half-way wanted a 026, and I have no doubt that $899 is
a reasonable price (for me). The only thing stopping me is no system to hook
it up to. But then, there's always the classiccmp "law of attraction" ;)

J



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 18:44:40 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:44:40 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>

> I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.

I am pretty sure I need to start using this phrase.

--
Will

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 19:10:11 2015
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 17:10:11 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
References: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
 <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 4:32 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

> XYZZY.  hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
>
> Plugh  (for good measure)
>
>
Y2

-- Charles

From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Sep 19 19:17:27 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 17:17:27 -0700
Subject: (was IBM 026) / is: Documation or card reader roller upgrades /
 successes.
In-Reply-To: <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
 <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55FDFB17.1020807@jwsss.com>



On 9/19/2015 4:41 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Marc wrote...
> ----
> Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
> interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them.
> ----
> Ditto. Offlist email sent.
>
> ----
> Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in
> time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks
> for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I
> would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional
> now).
> ----
> Agreed. I've always half-way wanted a 026, and I have no doubt that $899 is
> a reasonable price (for me). The only thing stopping me is no system to hook
> it up to. But then, there's always the classiccmp "law of attraction" ;)
>
> J
I may need help with the 029.  It was bought "functional" but the 
modules are out of it.  Since I have a working 129, I have not gotten 
into this one.  Anyone with a huge desire for it, we could talk about it.

I'm really looking for / dreading how to get a reliable reader.  I have 
"gooed" one Documation 200 and have another not powered on by me, and 
also an M1000, and would be interested in anyone who has successfully 
followed thru on all the discussions about the rollers as to how they 
did it and how they are working now.

Please, we all have archives, and know there are huge threads about this 
in the list.  I'm interested in an update with this query.
thanks
jim

From wilson at dbit.com  Sat Sep 19 19:27:05 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:27:05 -0400
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
In-Reply-To: <55FDCA78.9020104@bitsavers.org>
References: <302503.2f94390d.432efa32@aol.com>
 <20150919181224.GA7935@dbit.dbit.com>
 <55FDB7C5.4050402@bitsavers.org>
 <20150919204544.GA13837@dbit.dbit.com>
 <55FDCA78.9020104@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150920002705.GA21729@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 01:50:00PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
>>BASIC runs in your 4 KW with you.  I've never seen its sources
>
>The source is in with the UWM stuff. Look under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/ascii/basic

How did I not notice that?!  Awesome!  Grabbed and reCRLFed.

Thanks!!

John Wilson
D Bit

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 19:50:38 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:50:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
References: <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <1560653297.231813.1442710239006.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Very benevolent of you...Troll hater...RIP
      From: jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:32 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
XYZZY.? hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.

Plugh? (for good measure)



On 9/19/2015 3:10 PM, Able Baker wrote:
> Not feeding a supernatural being from Norse mythology is your suggestion??Good idea.
>? ? ? ? From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
>? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>? Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 4:44 PM
>? Subject: Re: IBM 026
>? ? 
>
>
>
>
>> If you really wanted it that badly then you should've bought it.
>>
> The only posts from "Able Baker" (whoever THAT might be) going back six years have been about the keypunch
> Dont' feed the troll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>? ? 
>
>



  

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 19:51:58 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:51:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <B40464CF-FB5E-47E5-858F-246AEED14EF5@nf6x.net>
References: <B40464CF-FB5E-47E5-858F-246AEED14EF5@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <1892991493.250690.1442710318194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Can't help you with a keypunch, but I was in the coin-operated pinball and arcade game business for 25 years...
      From: Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:34 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   



> On Sep 19, 2015, at 16:32 , jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> 
> XYZZY.? hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
> 
> Plugh? (for good measure)

LOL!

I'm not in equipment acquisition mode at the moment, but I wouldn't mind having a nice keypunch someday. And a pinball machine, too!



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


  

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 20:02:04 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 01:02:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <408672833.258013.1442710924353.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hasta La Pastato a bunch of Intolerants
      From: Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org>
 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:41 PM
 Subject: RE: IBM 026
   

Marc wrote...
----
Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. 
----
Ditto. Offlist email sent.



----
Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in
time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks
for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I
would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional
now). 
----
Agreed. I've always half-way wanted a 026, and I have no doubt that $899 is
a reasonable price (for me). The only thing stopping me is no system to hook
it up to. But then, there's always the classiccmp "law of attraction" ;)

J




   

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 20:03:08 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 01:03:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <237287218.262019.1442710988134.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Obviously you belong with this group
      From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:44 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   


> I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.

I am pretty sure I need to start using this phrase.

--
Will


   

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 20:05:30 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 01:05:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1397326857.266925.1442711130051.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

oooh very thoughtful...you know your XYZ's and the number 2
      From: Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
 To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:10 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 4:32 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:



> XYZZY.? hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
>
> Plugh? (for good measure)
>
>
Y2

-- Charles


  

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat Sep 19 20:09:22 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:09:22 -0500
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1397326857.266925.1442711130051.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1397326857.266925.1442711130051.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001101d0f340$fc626df0$f52749d0$@classiccmp.org>

Subscription suspended.

Next topic?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Able Baker
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:06 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 026

oooh very thoughtful...you know your XYZ's and the number 2
      From: Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
 To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:10 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 4:32 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:



> XYZZY.  hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
>
> Plugh  (for good measure)
>
>
Y2

-- Charles


  



From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 20:09:43 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 01:09:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: (was IBM 026) / is: Documation or card reader roller upgrades /
 successes.
In-Reply-To: <55FDFB17.1020807@jwsss.com>
References: <55FDFB17.1020807@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <372213632.247427.1442711383822.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I have all the old original documentation, schematics and service information on the 024/026/029 keypunches as well as the 1402 and 1403 series equipment...
      From: jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:17 PM
 Subject: Re:(was IBM 026) / is: Documation or card reader roller upgrades / successes.
   


On 9/19/2015 4:41 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Marc wrote...
> ----
> Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
> interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them.
> ----
> Ditto. Offlist email sent.
>
> ----
> Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in
> time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks
> for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I
> would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional
> now).
> ----
> Agreed. I've always half-way wanted a 026, and I have no doubt that $899 is
> a reasonable price (for me). The only thing stopping me is no system to hook
> it up to. But then, there's always the classiccmp "law of attraction" ;)
>
> J
I may need help with the 029.? It was bought "functional" but the 
modules are out of it.? Since I have a working 129, I have not gotten 
into this one.? Anyone with a huge desire for it, we could talk about it.

I'm really looking for / dreading how to get a reliable reader.? I have 
"gooed" one Documation 200 and have another not powered on by me, and 
also an M1000, and would be interested in anyone who has successfully 
followed thru on all the discussions about the rollers as to how they 
did it and how they are working now.

Please, we all have archives, and know there are huge threads about this 
in the list.? I'm interested in an update with this query.


thanks
jim


  

From tsw-cc at johana.com  Sat Sep 19 21:51:55 2015
From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 02:51:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Garage sale in Silicon Valley
Message-ID: <260613031.355009.1442717515159.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Various items that will probably be of interest here.? No reasonable offer refused.
Hard copy??? You got it:DecWriter LA30? (modified to show lower case, yes it works).DecWriter LA36 (Decwriter II)
Sun 4/110 floor standing model, 36 megs (if I remember correctly).Two SCSI boxes that go with the Sun, I believe one has an operating system on it.Apple LaserWriter Plus, two (UNOPENED) toner cartridges for it.ADDS Viewpoint 3A terminal.
Just so you know it is "classic":JVC U-Matic (3/4 inch) video cassette recorder, with cables.? NTSC.
Sorry I can't ship these, they are currently located in zip code 95008.PayPal accepted at time of sale.
Make me an offer I can't refuse!


From b4 at gewt.net  Sat Sep 19 21:57:00 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 19:57:00 -0700
Subject: Garage sale in Silicon Valley
In-Reply-To: <260613031.355009.1442717515159.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <260613031.355009.1442717515159.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6E63EA03-72FA-4DCB-BCD4-802454E9A116@gewt.net>

What do you want for the 4/110 + SCSI? I'm in 95112.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 19, 2015, at 19:51, Tom Watson <tsw-cc at johana.com> wrote:
> 
> Various items that will probably be of interest here.  No reasonable offer refused.
> Hard copy??  You got it:DecWriter LA30  (modified to show lower case, yes it works).DecWriter LA36 (Decwriter II)
> Sun 4/110 floor standing model, 36 megs (if I remember correctly).Two SCSI boxes that go with the Sun, I believe one has an operating system on it.Apple LaserWriter Plus, two (UNOPENED) toner cartridges for it.ADDS Viewpoint 3A terminal.
> Just so you know it is "classic":JVC U-Matic (3/4 inch) video cassette recorder, with cables.  NTSC.
> Sorry I can't ship these, they are currently located in zip code 95008.PayPal accepted at time of sale.
> Make me an offer I can't refuse!
> 

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sat Sep 19 22:20:47 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:20:47 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
Message-ID: <20150920032046.GL30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

Thanks Marc,

It may be a while before I get to restoring it but will definitely keep
you in mind when I do.

Thanks,

Todd

* Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com> [150919 18:36]:
> Todd,
> Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
> interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. Saving
> substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in time and
> money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks for
> taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I would
> be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional now). 
> Marc
> 
> ======================================
> 
> Message: 27
> From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
> Subject: Re: IBM 026
> Message-ID: <20150918235900.GF30683 at ns1.bonedaddy.net>
> 
> 
> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]: 
> > So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> > 
> > 	Noel
> 
> Yes.  I did.  I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.  Though
> i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
> 
> Todd

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sat Sep 19 22:22:10 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:22:10 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442682000.19333.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1C92F2F141104712984DC239A223C7CD@workshop>
 <000701d0f334$c486ec50$4d94c4f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20150920032210.GM30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> [150919 19:42]:
> 
> Marc wrote...
> ----
> Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an
> interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. 
> ----
> Ditto. Offlist email sent.
> 
> ----
> Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in
> time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks
> for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I
> would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional
> now). 
> ----
> Agreed. I've always half-way wanted a 026, and I have no doubt that $899 is
> a reasonable price (for me). The only thing stopping me is no system to hook
> it up to. But then, there's always the classiccmp "law of attraction" ;)
> 
> J
> 

Thank you Jay.

Todd

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Sat Sep 19 22:24:42 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 23:24:42 -0400
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> [150919 19:44]:
> > I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.
> 
> I am pretty sure I need to start using this phrase.
> 
> --
> Will

I certainly can't claim it as original with me (from a friend who has
passed who also used "don't sh*t in my mess kit" as well.)

Probably not original with him either but sometimes just so appropriate.

Todd

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Sep 19 22:38:00 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:38:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CANij+dfRX11_VvTjQg--s_c9C-pTS4OXUb0eHOKMZ4=uehYMVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509192028290.13175@shell.lmi.net>

If somebody has one that they will sell for less than $100, then they can 
get away with saying that that is what it is worth.  Otherwise, "value" 
has no quantifier other than what some buyer and some seller agree on.

My parents sold their 57 Chevy station wagon for $50 in 1965.  What is it 
worth now?


When I was at Goddard Space Center, we had an 026 connected to a Gerber 
Data Digitizer (an oversized etch-a-sketch).  When you hit the foot pedal, 
it would punch two three digit numbers of the current coordinates of the 
crosshairs.  That one, surely, would be worth LESS that $100, due to the 
extra work that would be required to get that extra stuff out of it.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Sep 19 22:58:09 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 22:58:09 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.15.1442721499.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 09:55 AM 9/18/2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>CryptoLocker has been around for a year.  I don't think that McAfee nor AVG see it.  "Well, it's not a VIRUS, . . ."

Yes and no.  The bad guys work very hard to evade detection.
They're always developing new wrappers to deliver the old payloads.  

The other recent development that makes me want to quit?

Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives.

https://blog.kaspersky.com/equation-hdd-malware/7623/

- John


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 00:32:05 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 05:32:05 +0000
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FDC938.3020806@bitsavers.org>
 <1744919332.220123.1442700652778.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55FDF073.7060405@jwsss.com>,
 <CANV78LRF2jZbALYfWfYytag46gZ3Ufdmfm=SFfVt7+LF_ydP7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D50F8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> > XYZZY.  hopefully banishing the creature back to the cave.
> >
> > Plugh  (for good measure)
> >
> >
> Y2

A hollow voice says "Cretin"

-tony

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 05:52:02 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:52:02 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 September 2015 at 19:53, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> A lot of disk-based BASICs had a statement that would merge a program from
> disk in this way. Sometimes the program had to be saved in ASCII, not tokenised,
> the BASIC interpretter then essentially read the file as if you were typing it on the
> keyboard. So program lines would indeed replace those with the same line number.

OK, that I've seen, yes. Even, very carefully, used it.

But the examples I've seen do not behave as you describe. Note, I am
not saying it's impossible or never happens, merely that it does not
match the behaviour I've seen.

In ever BASIC interpreter I've ever used, the LOAD command loads a new
program in from $MEDIUM. This implicitly gets rid of the program
previously in memory. It is not the same as a NEW command, which
usually also resets all variables etc.

If you want to keep the existing program in memory *and* load
additional lines from storage, there was a different command: MERGE.

But in everything from ZX BASIC to BBC BASIC to GWBASIC, loading a
program erases all lines of code in interpreter RAM and replaces the
whole program with the one loaded from disk, but leaves variables etc.
intact.

This means that, in effect, the program modules being loaded are
overlays: you can pass state (a whole set of initialised variables and
their values) from one module of code to another. I maintained a large
MS-DOS payroll program written this way: it consisted of 18-30+
sub-64kB modules of code. (How many depended on the client's
requirements.) The first module initialised all the variables in
memory and drew a menu. The menu LOADed the other modules, many of
which LOADed each other to handle the task. All the variables
remaining in place in RAM, all effectively globals, as GW-BASIC didn't
offer local variables, named procedures etc.

The reason was that you couldn't have a program of >64kB on GW-BASIC.
The original developer taught me to think of each chunk as a
procedure, and all the variables as globals. The code was extensively
commented to explain what variables it expected to find in place, what
they held, which ones it would modify etc.

Once I understood it, I found it really elegant.

I don't think I've *ever* seen a program that MERGEd in code during
execution, though. That sounds terrifying!


> One of the extension ROMs for HPL on the HP9825 (a BASIC-like language) had
> a command to store a string as a program line. It could be used within a program,
> thus leading to an official way to have self-modifying code.

Nifty!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 05:52:42 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:52:42 +0200
Subject: eval() considered dodgy - Re: Self modifying code, lambda
 calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FD9F1E.6010006@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55FD9F1E.6010006@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFun0f90mGQt6Dx4xqardxNY+bFVu3-i_BwX1Zq5CF1pg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 September 2015 at 19:45, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> Thank God nobody would build such a thing into a modern language, especially
> not the one that runs in almost every browser...

Well, quite. :-)

Or rather, :-(


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 05:57:17 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:57:17 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGW0JVSrj4WAERWu+wsXYisVe2EDEmCv1F6Xb-Am6w-fA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 September 2015 at 05:58, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives.

And access the hypervisor layer of an OS in various ways from programs
executing inside a VM.

So, for instance, much malware self-inactivates if it detects that
it's running inside a guest instance, so that anti-malware
investigators cannot examine its behaviour.

What is now being investigated (doubtless by both sides) is malware
that can inject code into the hypervisor from within a guest. Once
you've reached x86-64 Ring -1, then you're a god, you can do anything
you like to any VM and no anti-malware in the VMs can prevent it.

There is also research into using the increasingly industry-standard
remote-management features in core chipsets to hide or distribute
malware, again out of reach of any OS-level task.

And there is the very controversial claim of malware that could
transmit itself from machine to machine using speakers and microphone.

It's a jungle out there, with all that that implies about parasitism,
zombieism, concealment and stealth and creepy disgusting infections
that hide for a lifetime then apparently explode out of nowhere.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 23:45:38 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <650135077.281202.1442724338783.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

You 'people' certainly have a way with words...You should be very proud of your command of the English language.
      From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 11:24 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
* William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> [150919 19:44]:


> > I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.
> 
> I am pretty sure I need to start using this phrase.
> 
> --
> Will

I certainly can't claim it as original with me (from a friend who has
passed who also used "don't sh*t in my mess kit" as well.)

Probably not original with him either but sometimes just so appropriate.

Todd


   

From misc4email at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 19 23:55:55 2015
From: misc4email at yahoo.com (Able Baker)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 04:55:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509192028290.13175@shell.lmi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509192028290.13175@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <404362059.282128.1442724955924.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

"My parents sold their 57 Chevy station wagon for $50 in 1965.? What is it?
worth now?"
Good question.Condition unspecified and 50 years ago.Certainly a 'valid' point.
Maybe Todd's new toy will be worth a lot of money in about 50 years,if he gets it working and somebody living in 2065 remembers what an IBM 026 was.
Value is truly in the wallet of the buyer.
"That one, surely, would be worth LESS that $100, due to the?extra work that would be required to get that extra stuff(?) out of it."?
Extractions are usually expensive and painful.


      From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 11:38 PM
 Subject: Re: IBM 026
   
If somebody has one that they will sell for less than $100, then they can 
get away with saying that that is what it is worth.? Otherwise, "value" 
has no quantifier other than what some buyer and some seller agree on.

My parents sold their 57 Chevy station wagon for $50 in 1965.? What is it 
worth now?


When I was at Goddard Space Center, we had an 026 connected to a Gerber 
Data Digitizer (an oversized etch-a-sketch).? When you hit the foot pedal, 
it would punch two three digit numbers of the current coordinates of the 
crosshairs.? That one, surely, would be worth LESS that $100, due to the 
extra work that would be required to get that extra stuff out of it.





  

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep 20 06:41:53 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:41:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IBM 026
Message-ID: <20150920114153.4AD4318C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Marc Verdiell

    > thanks for taking care of a rare 026. 

Actually, IIRC this was an 029 - thread drift, after LCM (IIRC) enquired
about a punch - for them, an 029 seemed as good as an 026.

    > this community is about celebrating people that have an interest in
    > saving old valuable hardware.

Indeed, this whole list is about people saving computers that don't really
have any _practical_ use any more. By definition, from a purely _functional_
perspective, their value is scrap. But our viewpoint is not that - we see
them as interesting and historic artifacts - and in that light, their true
value is set by that old mechanism, supply and demand.

So some antique computers go for what I find remarkably low prices (e.g. QBUS
-11 stuff) because there's a good supply, and other very similar machines go
for a lot (that 11/70).because they are un-common. And IBM punches are not
exactly common items...

	Noel

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Sep 20 06:54:24 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:54:24 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:52:02 +0200"
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> But in everything from ZX BASIC to BBC BASIC to GWBASIC, loading a
> program erases all lines of code in interpreter RAM and replaces the
> whole program with the one loaded from disk, but leaves variables etc.
> intact.
>

BBC BASIC (when running on a BBC Micro at least) does clear (most) variables
when a program is loaded.  Most variables are stored in memory above the
program and if a small program was replaced by a larger program, some could get
overwritten.  Acorn may have decided that it was too much trouble to figure out
whether or which variables might be affected and that it was easier to be safe
by clearing them every time a program is loaded.

BBC BASIC (on a BBC Micro) doesn't have a MERGE command or equivelant either
but it is possible to merge programs together using slight hackery.  However,
once BASIC is made aware of the change, it will clear the variables so a
certain level of deviousness is required to do stuff like overlays.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 20 07:21:13 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:21:13 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55FEA4B9.6090709@btinternet.com>



On 20/09/2015 11:52, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 19 September 2015 at 19:53, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> A lot of disk-based BASICs had a statement that would merge a program from
>> disk in this way. Sometimes the program had to be saved in ASCII, not tokenised,
>> the BASIC interpretter then essentially read the file as if you were typing it on the
>> keyboard. So program lines would indeed replace those with the same line number.
> OK, that I've seen, yes. Even, very carefully, used it.
>
> But the examples I've seen do not behave as you describe. Note, I am
> not saying it's impossible or never happens, merely that it does not
> match the behaviour I've seen.
>
> In ever BASIC interpreter I've ever used, the LOAD command loads a new
> program in from $MEDIUM. This implicitly gets rid of the program
> previously in memory. It is not the same as a NEW command, which
> usually also resets all variables etc.
>
> If you want to keep the existing program in memory *and* load
> additional lines from storage, there was a different command: MERGE.
>
> But in everything from ZX BASIC to BBC BASIC to GWBASIC, loading a
> program erases all lines of code in interpreter RAM and replaces the
> whole program with the one loaded from disk, but leaves variables etc.
> intact.
>
> This means that, in effect, the program modules being loaded are
> overlays: you can pass state (a whole set of initialised variables and
> their values) from one module of code to another. I maintained a large
> MS-DOS payroll program written this way: it consisted of 18-30+
> sub-64kB modules of code. (How many depended on the client's
> requirements.) The first module initialised all the variables in
> memory and drew a menu. The menu LOADed the other modules, many of
> which LOADed each other to handle the task. All the variables
> remaining in place in RAM, all effectively globals, as GW-BASIC didn't
> offer local variables, named procedures etc.
>
> The reason was that you couldn't have a program of >64kB on GW-BASIC.
> The original developer taught me to think of each chunk as a
> procedure, and all the variables as globals. The code was extensively
> commented to explain what variables it expected to find in place, what
> they held, which ones it would modify etc.
>
> Once I understood it, I found it really elegant.
>
> I don't think I've *ever* seen a program that MERGEd in code during
> execution, though. That sounds terrifying!
>
>
>> One of the extension ROMs for HPL on the HP9825 (a BASIC-like language) had
>> a command to store a string as a program line. It could be used within a program,
>> thus leading to an official way to have self-modifying code.
> Nifty!
>
>
I'm trying to remember (O Nemisis thy name is Altzhimer) where I used it.
It may have been a project done on a Northstar Horizon running C/PM and 
CBASIC
I used Wordstar as a programmers editor.

I'd love a Northstar for old times sake but they are too heavy to ship 
from the US and you just do not see them in the UK.

Rod
-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E
                 M8981 KK8-E
                 M8300 KK8-E
                 M8310 KK8-E
                 M8320 KK8-E
                 M8330

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 20 07:23:56 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:23:56 +0100
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <650135077.281202.1442724338783.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20150920032442.GN30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <650135077.281202.1442724338783.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55FEA55C.10306@btinternet.com>



On 20/09/2015 05:45, Able Baker wrote:
> You 'people' certainly have a way with words...You should be very proud of your command of the English language.
>        From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>   To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>   Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 11:24 PM
>   Subject: Re: IBM 026
>     
> * William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> [150919 19:44]:
>
>
>>> I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.
>> I am pretty sure I need to start using this phrase.
>>
>> --
>> Will
> I certainly can't claim it as original with me (from a friend who has
> passed who also used "don't sh*t in my mess kit" as well.)
>
> Probably not original with him either but sometimes just so appropriate.
>
> Todd
>
>
>     
Oh dear!! not another slanging match.

Rod#
-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Sep 20 08:07:38 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VARM revision J transcription
Message-ID: <201509201307.JAA01884@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

Something like two and a half years ago, I got a copy of
EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.pdf, a one-image-per-page scan of a paper
copy of the VAX Architecture Reference Manual.  I don't know where I
got it, but bitsavers has a file of the same name with the same MD5
checksum at /pdf/dec/vax/archSpec/EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.pdf now,
so it likely was there.

I played with trying to build character-recognition software to convert
it to text and eventually decided it would be quicker and easier to do
it myself.

I've just finished that.  (I'm not sure whether it actually was quicker
or easier....)

The result is available from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in
/mouse/docs/DEC/VARM/EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.txt for anyone who
would care to grab a copy.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 08:30:45 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:30:45 +0000
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150920114153.4AD4318C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150920114153.4AD4318C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5186@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> Indeed, this whole list is about people saving computers that don't really
> have any _practical_ use any more. By definition, from a purely _functional_
> perspective, their value is scrap. But our viewpoint is not that - we see
> them as interesting and historic artifacts - and in that light, their true
> value is set by that old mechanism, supply and demand.

That is true of a lot (if not all) 'collectables', surely.

What is the 'value' of an obsolete postage stamp?

Practically, zero. You can no longer use it for the original purpose of
'payment' to have a letter or parcel delivered to somebody

The materials, close to zero. It's a square inch or so of paper and some printing
ink. Not exactly rare substances

To a collector, many thousands of pounds/dollars, perhaps, Becuase it is rare, and
he/she wants it.

-tony

From jfoust at threedee.com  Sun Sep 20 09:24:01 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:24:01 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGW0JVSrj4WAERWu+wsXYisVe2EDEmCv1F6Xb-Am6w-fA@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <CAMTenCGW0JVSrj4WAERWu+wsXYisVe2EDEmCv1F6Xb-Am6w-fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.16.1442759681.1088.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 05:57 AM 9/20/2015, Liam Proven wrote:
>On 20 September 2015 at 05:58, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>> Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives.
>
>And access the hypervisor layer of an OS in various ways from programs
>executing inside a VM.

Yeah, that too.  The easy recombination and modularization of malware
makes it so much worse.  I suspect there are quite a few easy ways that
malware could hold hostage the typical VMware / Hyper-V / Veeam / NAS / SAN
setups at many businesses, and easy money because it would be far easier
to pay the ransom than to perform full disaster recovery.

On a more classic-computer bent, though, I try to look backwards
for wisdom about how this problem could be solved, and it's such a
different world with the Internet and higher stakes and dependency
on networked computers...  it's not easy to solve.

- John


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Sep 20 09:47:50 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:47:50 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHTaVcKBXg62AYpYzxXXAEivm2bXaKEdRf-aM6VgiMqSw@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 September 2015 at 13:54, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> BBC BASIC (when running on a BBC Micro at least) does clear (most) variables
> when a program is loaded.  Most variables are stored in memory above the
> program and if a small program was replaced by a larger program, some could get
> overwritten.  Acorn may have decided that it was too much trouble to figure out
> whether or which variables might be affected and that it was easier to be safe
> by clearing them every time a program is loaded.
>
> BBC BASIC (on a BBC Micro) doesn't have a MERGE command or equivelant either
> but it is possible to merge programs together using slight hackery.  However,
> once BASIC is made aware of the change, it will clear the variables so a
> certain level of deviousness is required to do stuff like overlays.


Hmmm. I'm now wondering if the command was CHAIN not LOAD...



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun Sep 20 10:25:58 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:25:58 -0500
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5186@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150920114153.4AD4318C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5186@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <000c01d0f3b8$a7551f10$f5ff5d30$@classiccmp.org>

I apparently put Abel on Mod rather than UnSub, and then moderators approved
the messages.

Now he's been unsubbed and I checked both lists. However, be aware the list
archives are public.

J



From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Sep 20 11:00:37 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 17:00:37 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:47:50 +0200"
 <CAMTenCHTaVcKBXg62AYpYzxXXAEivm2bXaKEdRf-aM6VgiMqSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 at 16:47:50 +0200 Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 September 2015 at 13:54, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> > BBC BASIC (when running on a BBC Micro at least) does clear (most) variables
> > when a program is loaded.  Most variables are stored in memory above the
> > program and if a small program was replaced by a larger program, some could get
> > overwritten.  Acorn may have decided that it was too much trouble to figure out
> > whether or which variables might be affected and that it was easier to be safe
> > by clearing them every time a program is loaded.
> >
> > BBC BASIC (on a BBC Micro) doesn't have a MERGE command or equivelant either
> > but it is possible to merge programs together using slight hackery.  However,
> > once BASIC is made aware of the change, it will clear the variables so a
> > certain level of deviousness is required to do stuff like overlays.
>
>
> Hmmm. I'm now wondering if the command was CHAIN not LOAD...
>

CHAIN <filename> is roughly equivelant to LOAD <filename> followed by RUN.
Unlike LOAD, CHAIN can be issued from a program so it can be used for a kind of
overlay where one program is run and then replaced by another program when it
completes.  However, like LOAD (and RUN), CHAIN also clears most variables so
the amount of initialisation that can be done in the first program is quite
limited.

It is possible to start a BBC BASIC program without clearing variables using:
GOTO <first line number in program> but then the problem comes back to how to
get BASIC to agree to update the program currently in memory without clearing
variables.

(Why do I remember this stuff when I can't remember what happened yesterday?)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sun Sep 20 12:29:42 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:29:42 -0700
Subject: IBM 026
In-Reply-To: <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <20150918235900.GF30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <1220417064.45832.1442625026267.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20150919234143.GK30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5DF@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

People who say that someone has 'more money than common sense' usually have neither. 

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Todd Goodman
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 7:42 PM
To: Able Baker
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 026

You're an ass.

I don't know who pissed in your corn flakes but don't piss in mine.

It's "common sense."

I don't give a rat's ass what it's worth as scrap.

* Able Baker <misc4email at yahoo.com> [150918 21:10]:
> Some people have more money than common cents...However, you only overpaid for it by about $800.As scrap metal it's probably worth about $99.99
>       From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
>  To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>  Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 7:59 PM
>  Subject: Re: IBM 026
>    
> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]:
> 
> 
> >? ? > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but 
> >good
> >? ? > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money:
> >? ? >? http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725
> > 
> > So I see this sold - anyone know who got it?
> > 
> > ??? Noel
> 
> Yes.? I did.? I'll let people know what's up when I receive it.? 
> Though i don't expect to get much time with it for a while.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
>   

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 20 12:46:29 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:46:29 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 09:00 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote:

> CHAIN <filename> is roughly equivelant to LOAD <filename> followed by
> RUN. Unlike LOAD, CHAIN can be issued from a program so it can be
> used for a kind of overlay where one program is run and then replaced
> by another program when it completes.  However, like LOAD (and RUN),
> CHAIN also clears most variables so the amount of initialisation that
> can be done in the first program is quite limited.

Some BASICs implement a type of COMMON (to borrow from FORTRAN) which 
contains variables for communication between CHAINed program units.  In 
that respect, CHAINed programs behave much more like overlays, albeit 
all as level (0,0).   I'm not certain that any BASICs implement the 
FORTRAN-style overlay hierarchy.

--Chuck




From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Sep 20 12:53:29 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:53:29 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>

On 09/19/2015 10:58 PM, John Foust wrote:
> The other recent development that makes me want to quit? 
> Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of 
> hard drives. 
> https://blog.kaspersky.com/equation-hdd-malware/7623/ - John 
Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would 
guess it would be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus 
that would work on greatly differing OS's like Linux AND 
Windows.  No telling what would happen if one of these disk 
viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and then 
the drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux.
Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.

Jon

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Sep 20 13:18:00 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:18:00 -0600
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <55FEF858.4060003@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/20/2015 11:53 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/19/2015 10:58 PM, John Foust wrote:
>> The other recent development that makes me want to quit? Someone's
>> demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives.
>> https://blog.kaspersky.com/equation-hdd-malware/7623/ - John
> Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would guess it would
> be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on greatly
> differing OS's like Linux AND Windows.  No telling what would happen if
> one of these disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and
> then the drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux.
> Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.

I think the real problem is back to the OS and dynamic link libraries.

> Jon
Ben.



From simski at dds.nl  Sun Sep 20 09:38:23 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:38:23 +0200
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
Message-ID: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>

Hi All,

we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service 
docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test 
buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the 
center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as 
per the user guide.

anyone with documentation on this thing?
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Sep 20 13:00:15 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:00:15 -0500
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <55FEF42F.1010808@pico-systems.com>

On 09/20/2015 09:38 AM, simon wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but 
> without any service docs. Our specimen does not react to 
> buttons except the reset and test buttons. the four 
> statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the 
> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens 
> are loaded as per the user guide.
>
I have complete docs, plus all boards from a working Calcomp 
1076C (Gigantic E-size 4-pen plotter) with servo motors on 
the axes.  Most likely no parts commonality with the 1039, 
but if you can give some info on the 1039, I could see if 
there might be.

Jon

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 13:02:19 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 18:02:19 +0000
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> Hi All,
> 
> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service
> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test
> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the
> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as
> per the user guide.

Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check and/or
replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers 
and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them.

-tony

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 20 14:28:37 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
> Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would guess it would be 
> incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on greatly differing 
> OS's like Linux AND Windows.  No telling what would happen if one of these 
> disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and then the drive was 
> reformatted and loaded with Linux.
> Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.

It is possible to create an executable file that identifies the OS that it 
is running on and does a conditional jump to different code, assuming that 
the processor uses the same instruction set.

How different the OS's are would determine how much code could be shared. 
If they are very different, then the executable file could be twice as 
large, with no code in common.


It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk 
formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in 
different places.
One of the many projects that I never got ready for market was to make a 
multi-platform distribution format for software.  "Save a few cents on 
media costs by putting all of your platforms on one disk"  But, after 
August 1981, it eventually became apparent that the need for such was not 
going to be around much longer.

If the boot code is short enough, it is even possible to have an FM, an 
MFM, and a GCR boot sector in the same boot track, since each will not 
even see any except its own.  Formatting/recording a track with mixed 
densities and/or encodings and multiple sector sizes is not a supported 
function in most operating systems, nor even FDCs, but can be done with 
some flux transition controllers.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 14:43:03 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 19:43:03 +0000
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> It is possible to create an executable file that identifies the OS that it
> is running on and does a conditional jump to different code, assuming that
> the processor uses the same instruction set.

In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program that executes
on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets.

One way that spring to mind (assuming instructions are a 1 or more bytes long) is to
find a byte which : 

Processor A interprets as a single byte instruction

Processor B interprets as a 16 bit load to a register, hence taking 2 bytes of operand

Start the program with that byte, then put a 2-byte relative branch instruction in 
Processor A machine code.

Processor A then reads the single byte instrucion and executes it (not doing a lot), then
runs the relative branch, goes off somewhere where there is pure Processor A code

Processor B reads the values for the relative branch into a register (which does no damage)
then contines with the 4th byte of the program, which is pure Processor B code.

There are plenty of other ways to do it, I suspect certainly in some cases the right instruction
bytes exist.


> It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk
> formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in
> different places.

The OS-9 Level II distribution disk for the CoCo 3 is like that. It is mostly OS-9 format (which
assumes some kind of pointers, if not the root directory, in cylinder 0). One file, carefully postioned
at the middle track number, is actually a Color TRS-DOS directory and a couple of programs. Said
directory appears to contain a very large (non-contiguous) file covering most of the disk, along with 
a couple of utilities (a bootstrap for the older version disk controller ROM being the main one).

So when used under OS-9 it acts normally (directory where the OS expects to find it), just with
this apparently useless file. Ditto under Color TRS-DOS. 

-tony

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Sep 20 14:47:59 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:47:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201509201947.PAA05803@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I would guess it would be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus
>> that would work on greatly differing OS's like Linux AND Windows.

This is actually a good reason to encrypt your whole disk.  The disk
can't serve up working malware if the bits it returns get mangled by
decryption with an unknown(-to-the-disk) key before being used.

Of course, this will generally mean booting off something other than
the disk in question; that thing then becomes a possible target for
attack.  But this can be made more or less arbitrarily hard for the
attacker - consider network booting from a bootserver that isn't even
running the same ISA as the client....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 20 15:19:58 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was 
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>, 
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>

> It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk
> formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in
> different places.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, tony duell wrote:
So when used under OS-9 it acts normally (directory where the OS expects to find it), just with
this apparently useless file. Ditto under Color TRS-DOS.

Exactly.
Trying to combine Coco, TRS80 model 1, and Apple][, would require track 
17 to have MFM, FM, and GCR sectors/encoding.

BUT, many CP/M formats had different number of "reserved tracks" (how many 
tracks the DIRectory was from the beginning of the disk).  A good handful 
of those could be mixed.


There were several reasons why there was never a STANDARD 5.25" CP/M 
format.  I once had the opportunity to ask Gary Kildall what the standard 
would be for 5.25".  He replied, "8 inch single sided single density".  I 
repeated, "Yes, but waht about 5.25"?  He repeated, "8 inch single sided 
single density".  I understood, but was not much enlightened.

A rare few vendors actually WANTED their disks to be inaccessible by 
others!  At NCC 84? (the one in Anaheim, where a couple of people died 
from the heat in the tents), I asked Intertec (Superbrain) and Televideo 
about their disk formats.  They both, and only them out of all 
manufacturers that I asked, asserted that the only possible reason to read 
their disks with another machine was to pirate their proprietary software! 
(So, I added those formats that night in my hotel room).


Dysan (remember them?)  thought that they had a solution.  When 
"shirt-pocket" disks were on the horizon, there was much debate about 3" V 
3.5" V 3.25".  Dysan was pushing the 3.25" size, because other than a 
solid hub, it was the same as a conventional floppy, and would require 
much less retooling.  They set standard format(s) for 3.25".  Then to make 
absolutely sure that it would get adopted, they bet the company, and set 
up a software distribution company!  Most major software products were 
available on 3.25"!!  I eventually ended up with some of the 
drives and disks from Micropro (WORDSTAR).  But then, Amstrad, 
Gavilan, etc. went with 3". Apple and HP went with 3.5", and the battle 
was over.  In spite of the impressive library of available software, as 
near as I can find out, the Seequa Chameleon 325 was the ONLY machine to 
reach market with 3.25" drives.


George Morrow said that standards are wonderful, that everybody should 
have a unique one of their own.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Sep 20 15:46:34 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:46:34 -0600
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/20/2015 2:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

>
> There were several reasons why there was never a STANDARD 5.25" CP/M
> format.  I once had the opportunity to ask Gary Kildall what the
> standard would be for 5.25".  He replied, "8 inch single sided single
> density".  I repeated, "Yes, but waht about 5.25"?  He repeated, "8 inch
> single sided single density".  I understood, but was not much enlightened.

I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track.
Ben.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 20 17:03:56 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track.
> Ben.

single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per sector
256,256 bytes (250.25K)



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 20 18:21:17 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:21:17 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 03:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
>> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
>> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
>> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track. Ben.
>
> single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per
> sector 256,256 bytes (250.25K)

There was a good reason for that.

Many early disk controllers did not have a "write index to index" 
fucntion that also enabled writing special (i.e. missing clocks) 
characters.  As a result, one had to purchase 8" floppies pre-formatted 
(this actually persisted for quite some time).  IBM 3740 format was the 
most common format out there; hence the easiest to obtain.

--Chuck

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Sep 20 19:55:35 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:55:35 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>

 >Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would guess it 
>> would be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on 
>> greatly differing OS's like Linux AND Windows.  No telling what would 
>> happen if one of these disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a 
>> Windows system and then the drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux.
>> Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.
>
>
> It is possible to create an executable file that identifies the OS 
> that it is running on and does a conditional jump to different code, 
> assuming that the processor uses the same instruction set.
>
> How different the OS's are would determine how much code could be 
> shared. If they are very different, then the executable file could be 
> twice as large, with no code in common.
>
>
> It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk 
> formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in 
> different places.
> One of the many projects that I never got ready for market was to make 
> a multi-platform distribution format for software.  "Save a few cents 
> on media costs by putting all of your platforms on one disk"  But, 
> after August 1981, it eventually became apparent that the need for 
> such was not going to be around much longer.
>
> If the boot code is short enough, it is even possible to have an FM, 
> an MFM, and a GCR boot sector in the same boot track, since each will 
> not even see any except its own.  Formatting/recording a track with 
> mixed densities and/or encodings and multiple sector sizes is not a 
> supported function in most operating systems, nor even FDCs, but can 
> be done with some flux transition controllers.

I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot code
under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
CD to be bootable under Windows.

Under RT-11, the first six hard disk blocks (0 to 5) are reserved for boot
code (when that is present) and hard disk blocks from 6 up to 67 are used
for an RT-11 directory.  RT-11 rarely uses that large a directory and the
minimum directory is only two hard disk block long.  For the CD, that
allowed an RT-11 directory from hard disk blocks 6 to 63 or up to
sector 15.

What may have been unique was that only the RT-11 directory and the
CD  ISO directory were distinct.  Otherwise, all the files were the same
with each directory pointing to the same location on the ISO image.

In practice, the same CD could be used as a data CD under Windows
in addition to being a boot disk on a real DEC  RT-11 system which
supported that operating system.  I was actually on the phone at one
point when the first individual who received a copy of the CD used
it to boot RT-11 on a CDROM drive configured to support 512 byte
blocks using a CQD 220/TM host adapter.

The same ISO image file can also be used under both SimH and Ersatz-11
in the same manner, although it is STRONGLY recommended that the
ATTACH or MOUNT command use the ISO image file as READ  ONLY.
Ersatz-11 is also able to MOUNT the actual RAW CD on a CDROM
SCSI drive and boot RT-11 from the CD.  Of course, the Windows
operating system under which Ersatz-11 is also able to see all the same
files on the CD as well, BUT  NOT  AT  THE  SAME  TIME - at
least I never did attempt that possibility.

If this can be done with Windows and RT-11 which have completely
different file structures and instructions sets, it certainly seems likely
that other operating systems and system hardware can also be supported.
The one thing that seemed reasonable from a security point of view is
that the CD is READ  ONLY, so no virus can be introduced on the
CD after it is burned.

Tim Shoppa did almost the same thing with his RT-11  Freeware CD
when an RT-11 directory was added at the end of the ISO image file
for the CD.

If anyone finds this interesting and has additional questions, please ask.

Jerome Fine

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Sep 20 19:11:06 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:11:06 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>

 >Chuck Guzis wrote:

> >On 09/20/2015 03:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> >On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
>>
>>> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
>>> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
>>> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track. Ben. 
>>
>> single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per
>> sector 256,256 bytes (250.25K) 
>
> There was a good reason for that.
>
> Many early disk controllers did not have a "write index to index" 
> fucntion that also enabled writing special (i.e. missing clocks) 
> characters.  As a result, one had to purchase 8" floppies 
> pre-formatted (this actually persisted for quite some time).  IBM 3740 
> format was the most common format out there; hence the easiest to obtain.

You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
that function as well.

Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
did not seem like the individual was pretending.

After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
density or double density in addition to being both single
sided and double sided.

Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.

Jerome Fine

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 20 19:32:27 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 17:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>

>> single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per
>> sector 256,256 bytes (250.25K)
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> There was a good reason for that.
> Many early disk controllers did not have a "write index to index" fucntion 
> that also enabled writing special (i.e. missing clocks) characters.  As a 
> result, one had to purchase 8" floppies pre-formatted (this actually 
> persisted for quite some time).  IBM 3740 format was the most common format 
> out there; hence the easiest to obtain.

It certainly made absolute sense as the format to use.

But, I had thought that there should then be a SECOND standard for 5.25", 
for those machines without 8" support.
Gary disagreed.  Having more than ONE "standard" makes it not completely a 
standard.  Still, a 5.25" "recommended" format, or a specific family with 
sides and densities,  would have made a lot of people less miserable, 
(did we really need thousands of mutually incompatable formats?),
and I would have been programming some other project.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 20 19:41:54 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 01:41:54 +0100
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
Message-ID: <55FF5252.50308@btinternet.com>

I'm pleased to be able to report the successful installation of OpenVMS 
8.3 - Alpha on my  3000 M600
It now runs Dec Windows on the graphics screen and a terminal on the 
serial port.
TCPIP works and I can get to my local network OK.

Now to find a browser. There must have been one

Rod


-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E   for my 11/94
M8981 KK8-E
M8300 KK8-E
M8310 KK8-E
M8320 KK8-E
M8330

From jason at smbfc.net  Sun Sep 20 20:08:40 2015
From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 18:08:40 -0700
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55FF5252.50308@btinternet.com>
References: <55FF5252.50308@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <55FF5898.9090900@smbfc.net>


On 09/20/2015 05:41 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> I'm pleased to be able to report the successful installation of 
> OpenVMS 8.3 - Alpha on my  3000 M600
> It now runs Dec Windows on the graphics screen and a terminal on the 
> serial port.
> TCPIP works and I can get to my local network OK.
>
> Now to find a browser. There must have been one
>
> Rod
>
>
Rod,

There is the Compaq Secure Web Browser, which is a horribly ancient 
compile of netscape? Mozilla?  can't remember at the moment.

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/cswbs/cswbs.html

It barely runs on my Dec 3000 w/ 192 MB of memory.

There are VMS builds of lynx/links out there for VMS which run much 
better, but as with all terminal based text web browsers are of dubious 
utility.

--Jason

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 20 20:55:30 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 18:55:30 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 05:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> But, I had thought that there should then be a SECOND standard for
> 5.25", for those machines without 8" support. Gary disagreed.  Having
> more than ONE "standard" makes it not completely a standard.  Still,
> a 5.25" "recommended" format, or a specific family with sides and
> densities,  would have made a lot of people less miserable, (did we
> really need thousands of mutually incompatable formats?), and I would
> have been programming some other project.

Well, the 5.25" world was far less organized than the 8".  We didn't 
have an IBM to set some sort of widely-accepted standard.  The 3740 
format also served to cement the notion of a 128-byte sector firmly 
within CP/M (and early MS-DOS) long after that sector size had ceased to 
be a real physical concept.

But consider--the early Shugart (what was it, SA-400?) floppies recorded 
35 tracks at 48 tpi single-sided.  At a 250KHz clock, that's what, 16 
sectors * 128 bytes * 35 tracks = 70KiBytes.  What good is that?

At the same time Micropolis was working a 5.25" drive that could hold 
about as much as an 8", using some tricks.  The Micropolis drive was 100 
tpi, 77 track and, by using GCR, could hold 12 512-byte sectors per 
track.  That's 462KiB.  This was about 1977-78.

So which should have Gary embraced?  The Shugart drive was dirt-simple, 
but didn't hold much, but was (compratively) cheap.  The Micropolis 
drive and controller implementation (ours was done by a guy we'd 
recruited from Sperry ISS) was more complex and expensive, but gave you 
a useful amount of storage.

There weren't any really good choices for several years.  Keep in mind 
that 96 tpi drives also made their appearance.

The other day, I had to figure out why a fellow with CNC disks written 
using a Teac FD-50C couldn't read his disks in a normal 1.2MB AT drive. 
  Well, the Teac beast is one of the very few 100 tpi drives that Teac 
made--and this was for a system manufactured in the early 1980s.

So it was still fragmented.

And the nuttiness continued well into the 90s and the 3.5" drives (cf. 
the Mac 400 and 800K GCR flooppies).  I routinely get Brother WP disks 
that are 38 track, single-sided, Brother-encoded GCR that hold a 
whopping 120K on 2D floppies.  On the other hand, they're extremely 
reliable.

--Chuck



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Sep 20 21:59:40 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:59:40 -0600
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/20/2015 7:55 PM, Chuck Uzis wrote:

> So it was still fragmented.
>

So did it matter? You ran Basic or played games from cassete.
That was for domestic systems, heaven help you lived out of USA
for computers.

> --Chuck
Ben.


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sun Sep 20 22:03:35 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:03:35 -0500
Subject: TSS/8 with modern disks?
Message-ID: <98949DEF30AB4B52A1CF0C5459FFBFD3@CharlesHPLaptop>

OK, there does appear to be larger disk support... now how about for RL02?
Unfortunately the drive is not as smart as an RK (can't do spiral 
read/writes) so that would complicate things.
However, each side of cylinder 0 is about 10KB, so 20K is available without 
having to move the drive head. I bet that would be enough swap area most of 
the time (it's not like most of us have 16 users all logged on 
simultaneously) :)
-Charles


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Sep 20 22:08:25 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:08:25 -0500
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55FF74A9.1020506@pico-systems.com>

On 09/20/2015 03:46 PM, ben wrote:
> On 9/20/2015 2:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>>
>> There were several reasons why there was never a STANDARD 
>> 5.25" CP/M
>> format.  I once had the opportunity to ask Gary Kildall 
>> what the
>> standard would be for 5.25".  He replied, "8 inch single 
>> sided single
>> density".  I repeated, "Yes, but waht about 5.25"?  He 
>> repeated, "8 inch
>> single sided single density".  I understood, but was not 
>> much enlightened.
>
> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied 
> mostly
> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface 
> used at the
> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track.
It was fairly easy to make CP/M work with other disk types 
and formats.  Even **I** was able to write a driver to add a 
SASI Winchester drive to my CP/M system.  (That made it run 
SOOO much better!)

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 20 22:12:27 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:12:27 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 07:59 PM, ben wrote:

> So did it matter? You ran Basic or played games from cassete. That
> was for domestic systems, heaven help you lived out of USA for
> computers.

Gee, I thought we were talking about CP/M here.  How many CP/M systems 
used cassette for storage.  Better yet, how many commerical/industrial 
CP/M systems used cassettes for program storage.

I've seen plenty of CNC systems that used cassettes as a paper tape 
replacement, but none were running CP/M.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 20 22:32:12 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 20:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net> <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509202020150.17375@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
> So did it matter? You ran Basic or played games from cassete.

Sure.  But, I was never happy with cassette for program nor data storage. 
I bought an Expansion Interface the day that it became available, but I 
never bought a drive from Radio Shack nor IBM.  Bare drives were already 
available much cheaper.  And the MPI B51 came out soon after.  Split band 
positioner worked better for me than spiral cam.
And, of course, I already had a small stack of TM100-1 drives in 1981, 
when I needed some for 5150 PC.

> That was for domestic systems, heaven help you lived out of USA
> for computers.
True.   I was in driving distance of Silicon Valley.


And, I never thought that the Micropolis 100tpi would ever be the 
mainstream.  I bought one, and got a Micropolis OS with it that I never 
used.  Their 48tpi drive, however, was the most reliable, albeit slow, 
drive for my TRS80s.
96tpi, admittedly took a little longer to be available, but it 
seemed an obvious better choice than 100tpi, just for the [admittedly 
flawed] interchange possibility.  Many years later, in a pile of TM100-4 
drives, I got a TM100-4M, even though I could never find one when I wanted 
one.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Sep 20 22:48:59 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 21:48:59 -0600
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FF7E2B.1010803@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/20/2015 9:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/20/2015 07:59 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> So did it matter? You ran Basic or played games from cassete. That
>> was for domestic systems, heaven help you lived out of USA for
>> computers.
>
> Gee, I thought we were talking about CP/M here.  How many CP/M systems
> used cassette for storage.  Better yet, how many commerical/industrial
> CP/M systems used cassettes for program storage.
>
> I've seen plenty of CNC systems that used cassettes as a paper tape
> replacement, but none were running CP/M.

This is the other option: Basic
CP/M was for the REAL 8 bit systems.

> --Chuck
OS/9 was nice for the 6809 but all I had was 1 floppy with the COCO II.
Ben.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 23:52:58 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 04:52:58 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>,<55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
> that function as well.

The controller microcode ROMs in both the RX01 and RX02 are tightly
packed, there is not enough room (IMHO) for a LLF routine. And to use
larger ROMs (certainly in the RX01) would mean some other electronic
modifications.

[...]

> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,

The RX02 can reformat an RX01 as double-density. An RX01 is
essentially IBM3740 format. I have no problems formatting a
blank disk as SSSD in a CP/M machine and then using a (real
DEC) RX02 drive to turn it into a DEC double density disk.

[...]

> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed

Not really. The RX01 and RX02 have the controller electronics
in the drive chassis, and that determines what the drive unit
can do (like not doing an LLF). The RX50 is just a bare drive,
the interface is much the same as a PC (say) floppy drive
interface. An RX50 drive, given the right pulses on the 
write data line, will most certainly do an LLF. Some DEC
controllers used with it, and some software that used said
controllers might have been unable to do an LLF, but that's
not a problem with the drive.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 20 23:55:33 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 04:55:33 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>,<55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> 
> Gee, I thought we were talking about CP/M here.  How many CP/M systems
> used cassette for storage.  Better yet, how many commerical/industrial
> CP/M systems used cassettes for program storage.

Epson PX8?

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 00:39:03 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:39:03 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF7E2B.1010803@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com> <55FF7E2B.1010803@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <55FF97F7.8000803@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 08:48 PM, ben wrote:

> OS/9 was nice for the 6809 but all I had was 1 floppy with the COCO
> II. Ben.

Before I got a (dual) floppy drive with my personal system, I used a 
Techtran dual cassette drive.  One side was read-write, the other was 
read-only.    It was intended as a substitute for traditional paper tape 
systems.  Really nice, with high-speed search, filemarks and 
read-reverse.  Speeds to 9600 bps serial.  It had some fairly 
sophisticated command support--you could do an entire tape or just a 
file copy with a single command.

I wrote my own operating system of a sort for it and got a lot of work 
done until I got my floppies going (I used Don Tarbell's controller, 
which I still have).

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 00:42:27 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:42:27 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>

On 09/20/2015 09:55 PM, tony duell wrote:
>
>>
>> Gee, I thought we were talking about CP/M here.  How many CP/M
>> systems used cassette for storage.  Better yet, how many
>> commerical/industrial CP/M systems used cassettes for program
>> storage.
>
> Epson PX8?

That's a commercial or industrial system?  Did it run an EDM setup, 
turret lathe  or vacuforming machine?  Anyone keep their AR, AP, GL, 
payroll and inventory on one?   I doubt that one could run a PBX.

I never looked at the Geneva or QX-10 as much more than word processing 
setups.

--Chuck




From erik at baigar.de  Mon Sep 21 01:45:33 2015
From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 08:45:33 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>

 
Hi All,
 
the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two
big
PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos
and
drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the
computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication.
 
So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB may not
be
necessary. Have you tried this?
 
The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a problem on
the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But unfortunately
it is
stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks if there is
real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card for
safety
some years ago...
 
    Erik, erik at baigar.de
 

> tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02
> geschrieben:
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service
> > docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test
> > buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the
> > center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as
> > per the user guide.
>
> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check
> and/or
> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers
> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them.
>
> -tony

From erik at baigar.de  Mon Sep 21 01:45:33 2015
From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 08:45:33 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>

 
Hi All,
 
the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two
big
PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos
and
drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the
computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication.
 
So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB may not
be
necessary. Have you tried this?
 
The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a problem on
the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But unfortunately
it is
stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks if there is
real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card for
safety
some years ago...
 
    Erik, erik at baigar.de
 

> tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02
> geschrieben:
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service
> > docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test
> > buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the
> > center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as
> > per the user guide.
>
> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check
> and/or
> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers
> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them.
>
> -tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 21 01:50:02 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 08:50:02 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>

tony duell wrote:

> > 
> > For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
> > while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
> > to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
> > Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
> > 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
> > that function as well.
> 
> The controller microcode ROMs in both the RX01 and RX02 are tightly
> packed, there is not enough room (IMHO) for a LLF routine. And to use
> larger ROMs (certainly in the RX01) would mean some other electronic
> modifications.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
> > drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
> 
> The RX02 can reformat an RX01 as double-density. An RX01 is
> essentially IBM3740 format. I have no problems formatting a
> blank disk as SSSD in a CP/M machine and then using a (real
> DEC) RX02 drive to turn it into a DEC double density disk.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
> 
> Not really. The RX01 and RX02 have the controller electronics
> in the drive chassis, and that determines what the drive unit
> can do (like not doing an LLF). The RX50 is just a bare drive,
> the interface is much the same as a PC (say) floppy drive
> interface. An RX50 drive, given the right pulses on the 
> write data line, will most certainly do an LLF. Some DEC
> controllers used with it, and some software that used said
> controllers might have been unable to do an LLF, but that's
> not a problem with the drive.
> 
> -tony

I do have a question here. I got an russian Elektronika 60 (what is
something like an 11/03 clone) and repaired it. Part of that machine is a
russian GMD7012 dual Floppy drive which seems to be a copy of the RX02 too.
All the Disks I've got for that machine are in RX01 Format but while
repairing the Drive I found a jumper in there that is to be used to switch
the Drive from RX01 to RX02 mode.
I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?
I know that a different device driver has to be used  normally, but I had
no RX02 media and wasn't able to make one, since the machine has no other
drives connected and the card cage is mechanically not compatible (metric
dimensions including the fingers).
I know that in the RX02 Mode the Drive has an format track command that
doesn't exist in RX01 mode, that's documented. How about the RX02?

Is there somewhere a picture from the Conteroller PCB of the DEC RX02
(just to look at). The russian controller has a 2910 and four 2901 if
I remember correctly... (K1804VU1 and 4xK1804VS1)

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From scaron at umich.edu  Sun Sep 20 23:36:41 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 00:36:41 -0400
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <55FF5898.9090900@smbfc.net>
References: <55FF5252.50308@btinternet.com>
	<55FF5898.9090900@smbfc.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWsjtL1fJo1ngd7O9b0wf_EMP=MwNpSUKCJpvrBN0tRUA@mail.gmail.com>

I am pretty sure I remember a Netscape build for VMS long ago ... but I
can't say for sure. I may have just been running on a UNIX machine with
remote X to the VAX ... I don't recall. All my VMS systems run just in text
mode nowadays so I can't really do a lot of first-hand experimentation. I
definitely remember running Netscape on an old DECpc AXP 150 with 128 Meg
RAM (under Tru64) and it worked well enough.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Jason Howe <jason at smbfc.net> wrote:

>
> On 09/20/2015 05:41 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
>> I'm pleased to be able to report the successful installation of OpenVMS
>> 8.3 - Alpha on my  3000 M600
>> It now runs Dec Windows on the graphics screen and a terminal on the
>> serial port.
>> TCPIP works and I can get to my local network OK.
>>
>> Now to find a browser. There must have been one
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>> Rod,
>
> There is the Compaq Secure Web Browser, which is a horribly ancient
> compile of netscape? Mozilla?  can't remember at the moment.
>
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/cswbs/cswbs.html
>
> It barely runs on my Dec 3000 w/ 192 MB of memory.
>
> There are VMS builds of lynx/links out there for VMS which run much
> better, but as with all terminal based text web browsers are of dubious
> utility.
>
> --Jason
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 04:24:41 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:24:41 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-20 19:46, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/20/2015 09:00 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>
>> CHAIN <filename> is roughly equivelant to LOAD <filename> followed by
>> RUN. Unlike LOAD, CHAIN can be issued from a program so it can be
>> used for a kind of overlay where one program is run and then replaced
>> by another program when it completes.  However, like LOAD (and RUN),
>> CHAIN also clears most variables so the amount of initialisation that
>> can be done in the first program is quite limited.
>
> Some BASICs implement a type of COMMON (to borrow from FORTRAN) which
> contains variables for communication between CHAINed program units.  In
> that respect, CHAINed programs behave much more like overlays, albeit
> all as level (0,0).   I'm not certain that any BASICs implement the
> FORTRAN-style overlay hierarchy.

CHAIN is in no way similar to overlays. COMMONs, if available, is a nice 
way to preserve some data between different programs running.
CHAIN is (like someone said), about the same as a LOAD followed by a RUN.

So, how is this different than overlays? Well, with overlays, you only 
replace parts of your code. Some other parts stay around, as well as all 
volatile data. So, you can still call code that is in the resident part 
of memory, and which is not replaced by a different overlay.

And yes, there are BASICs that can work with overlays. See DECs BASIC+2. 
Has both commons, overlays and CHAIN. And if run under RSTS/E if also 
have a core common block, which can be used to pass data between 
programs when CHAINing.

I wonder what FORTRAN-style overlay hierarchy means. I know of overlays, 
and on DEC OSes, it is a common technique, provided by the linker, and 
is not tied to a specific language. So, you can use it with FORTRAN, but 
there is nothing FORTRAN-specific about it.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 04:30:48 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:30:48 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> >On 09/20/2015 03:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>>> >On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
>>>> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
>>>> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track. Ben.
>>>
>>> single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per
>>> sector 256,256 bytes (250.25K)
>>
>> There was a good reason for that.
>>
>> Many early disk controllers did not have a "write index to index"
>> fucntion that also enabled writing special (i.e. missing clocks)
>> characters.  As a result, one had to purchase 8" floppies
>> pre-formatted (this actually persisted for quite some time).  IBM 3740
>> format was the most common format out there; hence the easiest to obtain.
>
> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
> that function as well.
>
> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
> did not seem like the individual was pretending.
>
> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
> density or double density in addition to being both single
> sided and double sided.

Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format, 
which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format.
RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02 
mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02 
drive is able to do that.

> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.

No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their 
own, but only on the Rainbow.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep 21 05:13:38 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:13:38 +0100
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55FFD852.40003@btinternet.com>



On 21/09/2015 10:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>  >Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>
>>> >On 09/20/2015 03:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>
>>>> >On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, ben wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was just digging in to old CP/M a bit and it was/is tied mostly
>>>>> to the IBM 8" standard floppy and the floppy interface used at the
>>>>> time. Even that gave a very small amount memory per track. Ben.
>>>>
>>>> single sided FM/SD 77 tracks, 26 sectors per track, 128 bytes per
>>>> sector 256,256 bytes (250.25K)
>>>
>>> There was a good reason for that.
>>>
>>> Many early disk controllers did not have a "write index to index"
>>> fucntion that also enabled writing special (i.e. missing clocks)
>>> characters.  As a result, one had to purchase 8" floppies
>>> pre-formatted (this actually persisted for quite some time). IBM 3740
>>> format was the most common format out there; hence the easiest to 
>>> obtain.
>>
>> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
>> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
>> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
>> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
>> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
>> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
>> that function as well.
>>
>> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
>> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
>> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
>> did not seem like the individual was pretending.
>>
>> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
>> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
>> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
>> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
>> density or double density in addition to being both single
>> sided and double sided.
>
> Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format, 
> which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format.
> RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02 
> mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02 
> drive is able to do that.
>
>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
>
> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their 
> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>
>     Johnny

> Take me back to my desk in DECPark thirty years ago and I could have 
> pulled out the internal documents on this.
      I cant do that so we will have to make do with my dodgy memory.
When floppy disks first appeared end users just wanted to take the disk 
out of the box and use it.
They could not see why they should waste time preparing every new one.
They did not need matching to a particular drive as DEC's manufacturing 
tolerances made sure any disk would work on any drive.

In fact it was more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted disks.
It was more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept 
running.

I heard the following story

One customer went out and got a huge pile of unformatted (and untested) 
floppys and a third party format program.
He expected DEC to make it work.

The account manager asked to see his DEC maintainance contract and had 
to be restrained  from  tearing it up.
Through the window of the office was building site and the inevitable 50 
gallon oil drum burning rubbish.
He was offered a choice; he could put the disks or the contract in the 
burning drum.

Rod Smallwood




DEC supplied pre formatted disks



-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 07:19:35 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 08:19:35 -0400
Subject: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWsjtL1fJo1ngd7O9b0wf_EMP=MwNpSUKCJpvrBN0tRUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55FF5252.50308@btinternet.com> <55FF5898.9090900@smbfc.net>
 <CAA43vkWsjtL1fJo1ngd7O9b0wf_EMP=MwNpSUKCJpvrBN0tRUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueQzE=akF0LdcoNHQbZuJeEf8gMKXtrPgwQ3M4oqM1HYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have Moasic on my Alpha 2100 running VMS

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> I am pretty sure I remember a Netscape build for VMS long ago ... but I
> can't say for sure. I may have just been running on a UNIX machine with
> remote X to the VAX ... I don't recall. All my VMS systems run just in text
> mode nowadays so I can't really do a lot of first-hand experimentation. I
> definitely remember running Netscape on an old DECpc AXP 150 with 128 Meg
> RAM (under Tru64) and it worked well enough.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Jason Howe <jason at smbfc.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 09/20/2015 05:41 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> >
> >> I'm pleased to be able to report the successful installation of OpenVMS
> >> 8.3 - Alpha on my  3000 M600
> >> It now runs Dec Windows on the graphics screen and a terminal on the
> >> serial port.
> >> TCPIP works and I can get to my local network OK.
> >>
> >> Now to find a browser. There must have been one
> >>
> >> Rod
> >>
> >>
> >> Rod,
> >
> > There is the Compaq Secure Web Browser, which is a horribly ancient
> > compile of netscape? Mozilla?  can't remember at the moment.
> >
> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/cswbs/cswbs.html
> >
> > It barely runs on my Dec 3000 w/ 192 MB of memory.
> >
> > There are VMS builds of lynx/links out there for VMS which run much
> > better, but as with all terminal based text web browsers are of dubious
> > utility.
> >
> > --Jason
> >
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep 21 08:15:13 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:15:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: tony duell

    > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program
    > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets.

I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on the
disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, and
the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two
machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in the
KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban legend?

	Noel

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon Sep 21 08:17:57 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:17:57 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150921131757.GA2986@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 09:15:13AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: tony duell
> 
>     > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program
>     > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets.
> 
> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on the
> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, and
> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two
> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in the
> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban legend?
> 
> 	Noel


Perhaps you are thinking of the 1984 ioccc winner:

http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.c
http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.hint

/P

From simski at dds.nl  Mon Sep 21 04:47:46 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:47:46 +0200
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55FFD242.5020903@dds.nl>

Spot on. it HAS the 2114 ram chips. now to find replacements..

strange enough there are 12 positions for ram chips and two of them are 
left unpopulated: pos 1 and pos 7.


On 20-09-15 20:02, tony duell wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service
>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test
>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the
>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as
>> per the user guide.
>
> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check and/or
> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers
> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them.
>
> -tony
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From simski at dds.nl  Mon Sep 21 04:49:32 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:49:32 +0200
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
Message-ID: <55FFD2AC.4070308@dds.nl>

Sounds good. Docs are much appriciated.

Our printer has three boards inside, one processor, one pen driver and i 
forgot what the thirdt was. Next time i will take photo's of that card 
as well.

simon

On 21-09-15 08:45, Erik Baigar wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two
> big
> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos
> and
> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the
> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication.
>
> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB may not
> be
> necessary. Have you tried this?
>
> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a problem on
> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But unfortunately
> it is
> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks if there is
> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card for
> safety
> some years ago...
>
>      Erik, erik at baigar.de
>
>
>> tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02
>> geschrieben:
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service
>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test
>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the
>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as
>>> per the user guide.
>>
>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check
>> and/or
>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers
>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them.
>>
>> -tony
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 08:57:34 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:57:34 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


>
> > Epson PX8?
> 
> That's a commercial or industrial system?  Did it run an EDM setup,
> turret lathe  or vacuforming machine?  Anyone keep their AR, AP, GL,
> payroll and inventory on one?   I doubt that one could run a PBX.

I guess it depends on what you call a 'commercial' system. I certainly
wouldn't class the PX8 as a home computer.

> I never looked at the Geneva or QX-10 as much more than word processing
> setups.

Then IMHO you didn't look at them carefully. I think the QX10 is one of the best 
all-in-one (as opposed to S100 bus, say) CP/M machines. Good graphics, 256k
(bank switched) RAM, those nice Epson voice-coil drives, RS232 and Centronics
interfaces, expansion slots if you need more, good documentation, etc, etc, etc
It certainly is a lot more than a word processing system.

-tony



--Chuck




From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 21 09:01:03 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:01:03 -0500
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
Message-ID: <001b01d0f475$f4cd2360$de676a20$@classiccmp.org>

I decided to raid the front panel of my S/200 to get a switch cover and a
switch for the S/130; what can I say - I got antsy to see if the S/130
worked ;) When taking the S/200 front panel apart I found it really wasn't
in great shape as it had appeared to be from the outside. A large number of
the incandescents had broken off and were sitting loose and one of the
switch covers was broken so someday I'll return to the S/200 but the S/130
restoration was completed as a result. 

Pictures (completely out of order) are at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 but the first picture shows the
cpu up.

Once or twice, running the microcoded self-test produced a "Rom Error", but
almost always it produces the desired result and loops on that test (checks
microcode checksum, ability to execute and step microcode, a few CPU
instructions & paths, and tests the lowest 16Kw of ram). Raising switch 0
halts cpu at microcode address 2 just as it should.

I also noticed that on rare occasion, hitting "examine" on AC1 produces no
result - but other than that I can store and read AC0-3 as well as several
different sections of memory. 

Next step is to locate a 4045 board and see if I can get a console hooked
up. After that, I'll need some way to get diagnostics into the machine. To
that end, I could try restoring a HD, 8" diskette, paper tape, or dual
cassette drive - but I'm wondering if there is any previous art for entering
a front panel ditty and stuffing diags down the console port (from a PC)?
Yes, google is my next stop ;)

Thanks to several listmembers and especially Bruce for pointers and advice,
as documentation is scarce and not organized the way my brain works. 

Best,

J





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 09:02:45 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:02:45 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


[Russian PDP11-a-like]

> 
> I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
> I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?

As far as I know, it can't. An RX02 can read/write an RX01 disk, but the software
interface to the controller is so different (the RX)2 uses DMA, the RX01 doesn't for
one thing) that the RX02 cannot boot an RX01 disk.

> I know that a different device driver has to be used  normally, but I had
> no RX02 media and wasn't able to make one, since the machine has no other
> drives connected and the card cage is mechanically not compatible (metric
> dimensions including the fingers).
> I know that in the RX02 Mode the Drive has an format track command that
> doesn't exist in RX01 mode, that's documented. How about the RX02?

The RX02 has a 'set density' command that can be used to reformat a 
formatted single density disk as double density.

> Is there somewhere a picture from the Conteroller PCB of the DEC RX02
> (just to look at). The russian controller has a 2910 and four 2901 if
> I remember correctly... (K1804VU1 and 4xK1804VS1)

The RX02 drive contains a couple of 2901s and a few of the sequencer chips
(I think 2911s, maybe 2909s). I've seen a 3rd party Qbus card that connected to
normal Shugart drives and which could red/write RX02 disks, I think that had 
a couple of 2901s and a 2910 on it.

-tony

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 09:25:31 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:25:31 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <627BA0B5-C595-4053-951D-281DECA10B9C@comcast.net>


> On Sep 20, 2015, at 8:55 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
>> ...
> 
> I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
> with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
> for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
> on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot code
> under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
> CD to be bootable under Windows.

I did something similar a long time ago, when some people at DEC were working to create an "Everything for RSTS/E" CD (similar, I think, to what was done for VMS at that time).  In my utility "rstsflx" I added a mode to produce a split structure somewhat like what you mentioned, but simpler.  The RSTS file system looked like a CD file, and the rest of the CD looked like allocated space to the RSTS file system.

I heard rumors that the CD it was meant for was created, but I never actually saw one.

	paul



From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 09:31:35 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:31:35 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <560014C7.6000706@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 15:15, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: tony duell
>
>      > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program
>      > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets.
>
> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on the
> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, and
> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two
> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in the
> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban legend?

I suspect that would be an urband legend, as the KL10 is booted by the 
PDP-11, and does not, on its own, start reading something from the disk 
to start executing. Or at least that is how I remember things...

However, the PDP-11 FE filesystem exists, as a plain file, in the 
PDP-10s file system (TOPS-10 or Tops-20).

	Johnny


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 09:09:59 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:09:59 +0000
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <55FFD242.5020903@dds.nl>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FFD242.5020903@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5448@EXMBX15.thus.corp>



> Spot on. it HAS the 2114 ram chips. now to find replacements..

The slight delay after power-on before giving the error indication suggested
a memory test to me...

Of course it might not be 2114 problems, but I have replaced so many of those
ICs over the years in all sorts of devices that I suspect them on sight now :-)


> strange enough there are 12 positions for ram chips and two of them are
> left unpopulated: pos 1 and pos 7.

2114s are normally used in pairs,, of course. They are 1K*4 RAMs, so it takes 2 
to make a byte. I hope some kind person hasn't 'borrowed' a couple of RAMs
from the plotter, that would be nasty.

-tony

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 09:52:30 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:52:30 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>

Not that I care what Holm Tiffe smokes, but I can at least comment what 
you write, Tony. :-)

On 2015-09-21 16:02, tony duell wrote:
>
> [Russian PDP11-a-like]

All bets are off when we talk about clones, since they might be rather 
different in details...

>> I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
>> I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?
>
> As far as I know, it can't. An RX02 can read/write an RX01 disk, but the software
> interface to the controller is so different (the RX)2 uses DMA, the RX01 doesn't for
> one thing) that the RX02 cannot boot an RX01 disk.

Of course an RX02 *drive* can read an RX01 *floppy*. And yes, a system 
with an RX211 and an RX02 *drive* can boot from a floppy that what 
written by an RX01 *drive*. But you need the boot code for an RX211 
controller, and that boot code also needs to handle RX01 format 
floppies. If the boot sector on the floppy is for an RX11, then no, an 
RX211 will not understand things. The programming model for the two 
controllers are different. You need different device drivers.

But this is really a question about the controller and the software 
running it, not the floppy or the drive.

>> I know that a different device driver has to be used  normally, but I had
>> no RX02 media and wasn't able to make one, since the machine has no other
>> drives connected and the card cage is mechanically not compatible (metric
>> dimensions including the fingers).
>> I know that in the RX02 Mode the Drive has an format track command that
>> doesn't exist in RX01 mode, that's documented. How about the RX02?
>
> The RX02 has a 'set density' command that can be used to reformat a
> formatted single density disk as double density.

Yes. And it's just flipping a bit in the sector header. And the drive 
changes between the densities for the data part of each sector. So you 
can actually have different densities on a per-sector basis with an RX02 
drive.

>> Is there somewhere a picture from the Conteroller PCB of the DEC RX02
>> (just to look at). The russian controller has a 2910 and four 2901 if
>> I remember correctly... (K1804VU1 and 4xK1804VS1)
>
> The RX02 drive contains a couple of 2901s and a few of the sequencer chips
> (I think 2911s, maybe 2909s). I've seen a 3rd party Qbus card that connected to
> normal Shugart drives and which could red/write RX02 disks, I think that had
> a couple of 2901s and a 2910 on it.

What people need to understand is that there are a bunch of controllers 
and combinations. If we just contain our self to Unibus controllers, we 
have two. The RX11 and RX211. The RX11 works with both the RX01 and 
RX02. However, an RX02 needs to be set in an RX01-compatible mode if 
used with an RX11 (a couple of dip-switches in the drive). And that also 
turns it into essentially an RX01 (can't deal with double density within 
the RX11 interface). The interface to an RX01 is different than the 
interface to an RX02, even though they use the same flat cable.

The RX211 can be used with both an RX01 and an RX02, as far as I can 
remember. But that implies that there would need to be some switch or 
jumper on the RX211 in order to interface it with an RX01 (or some 
automatic detection), and I can't remember seeing that. But it might 
just be my memory failing me.
But the RX211 works differently than the RX11, so from a program point 
of view, they are totally different.

The RX02 drive, then, in turn, can read and write both RX01 and RX02 
floppies. No special tricks are required. The drive will detect, for 
each sector, which format it is in, and will switch mode accordingly, 
and return the right about of data (RX02 sectors holds 256 bytes, while 
RX01 sectors holds 128 bytes). The software can thus also easily see 
what type of floppy it is reading.
RX211 device drivers obviously then can handle both RX01 and RX02 
floppies, when used with an RX02 drive. And from the software point of 
view, the sectors just contains different amount of data.

	Johnny


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 10:03:50 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:03:50 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
> ...
>>> I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
>>> I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?
>> 
>> As far as I know, it can't. An RX02 can read/write an RX01 disk, but the software
>> interface to the controller is so different (the RX)2 uses DMA, the RX01 doesn't for
>> one thing) that the RX02 cannot boot an RX01 disk.
> 
> Of course an RX02 *drive* can read an RX01 *floppy*. And yes, a system with an RX211 and an RX02 *drive* can boot from a floppy that what written by an RX01 *drive*. But you need the boot code for an RX211 controller, and that boot code also needs to handle RX01 format floppies. If the boot sector on the floppy is for an RX11, then no, an RX211 will not understand things. The programming model for the two controllers are different. You need different device drivers.
> 
> But this is really a question about the controller and the software running it, not the floppy or the drive.

And it would certainly be possible to write a driver that can handle both controllers; it would start by determining which controller it's dealing with, and then run the one or the other set of algorithms.  Since a boot block is just a small driver, the same is true there, so long as the whole body of code fits in the available space.  I suspect in this case that's doable; most bootloaders (other than MSCP ones) require only a small fraction of the available space.

	paul


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Sep 21 10:47:27 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:47:27 -0500
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
Message-ID: <5600268F.1000705@pico-systems.com>

On 09/21/2015 01:45 AM, Erik Baigar wrote:
>   
> Hi All,
>   
> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two
> big
> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos
> and
> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the
> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication.
>   
Hmm, that sounds like my 1076C.  One board had a 68000 that 
ran the plotter servos, the other was the "plot manager" 
that had a big RAM buffer and sorted the plot vectors for 
optimum speed.  I think it mostly communicated with the host 
computer and plotter main board by serial.  Both boards had 
68K processors.

Jon

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 10:54:18 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net> <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net>

> > Epson PX8?
> That's a commercial or industrial system?  Did it run an EDM setup,
> turret lathe  or vacuforming machine?  Anyone keep their AR, AP, GL,
> payroll and inventory on one?   I doubt that one could run a PBX.
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, tony duell wrote:
I guess it depends on what you call a 'commercial' system. I certainly
wouldn't class the PX8 as a home computer.

It's a "portable" computer.  Not typicaally "industrial" except for VERY 
light industry.  Quite suitable for field engineers, etc.
The HX-20 was used around here for a while in some cable TV field 
troubleshooting.

> I never looked at the Geneva or QX-10 as much more than word processing
> setups.
Then IMHO you didn't look at them carefully. I think the QX10 is one of the best 
all-in-one (as opposed to S100 bus, say) CP/M machines. Good graphics, 256k
(bank switched) RAM, those nice Epson voice-coil drives, RS232 and Centronics
interfaces, expansion slots if you need more, good documentation, etc, etc, etc
It certainly is a lot more than a word processing system.

Valdocs influenced the perception and image of the machine.

From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 10:58:35 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:58:35 -0500
Subject: DG S/130 front panel switches?
In-Reply-To: <001501d0f2fa$bdcbf2f0$3963d8d0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <001501d0f2fa$bdcbf2f0$3963d8d0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5600292B.6020708@charter.net>

I will contact you off-list.

JRJ

On 9/19/2015 11:46 AM, Jay West wrote:
> So does anyone have a trashed/dead front panel for a Data General S/130
> (S/200 would also work) that can be a donor? All I need are two
> switches/paddles/Covers, but my S/200 front panel is perfect so I don't want
> to rob from that for the S/130 project. One light blue, one dark blue...
> Crossing my fingers.....
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 

From erik at baigar.de  Mon Sep 21 11:01:02 2015
From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:01:02 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <5600268F.1000705@pico-systems.com>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
 <5600268F.1000705@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <275265277.8753474.1442851263126.JavaMail.open-xchange@ptangptang.store>


> Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> hat am 21. September 2015 um 17:47
> geschrieben:
> Hmm, that sounds like my 1076C. One board had a 68000 that
> ran the plotter servos, the other was the "plot manager"
> that had a big RAM buffer and sorted the plot vectors for
> optimum speed. I think it mostly communicated with the host
> computer and plotter main board by serial. Both boards had
> 68K processors.
 
Well, the 103x really had the 68xx, not the 68xxx. I think it was a 6802, but
not sure now...

From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 11:28:34 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:28:34 -0500
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56003032.6020800@charter.net>

On 9/21/2015 4:30 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>  >Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
> 
> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their
> own, but only on the Rainbow.
> 
>     Johnny
> 

There was also a standalone PDP-11 diagnostic program available that
could do it.

JRJ

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 11:29:02 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:29:02 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>

 >Rod Smallwood wrote:

> >On 21/09/2015 10:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> >On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>
>>> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
>>> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
>>> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
>>> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
>>> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
>>> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
>>> that function as well.
>>>
>>> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
>>> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
>>> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
>>> did not seem like the individual was pretending.
>>>
>>> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
>>> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
>>> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
>>> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
>>> density or double density in addition to being both single
>>> sided and double sided. 
>>
>> Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format, 
>> which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format.
>> RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02 
>> mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02 
>> drive is able to do that.
>
I am not sure that I understand your suggestion.  While I agree
that the RX02 was able to switch a single-density floppy to a
double-density floppy (and visa versa), the difficulty, as you
pointed out, was performing the initial LLF (Low Level
Formatting) in the first place on Un-Formatted 8" floppies.
That may have been easy with IBM hardware, but DEC
made that impossible if all the user had was a DEC system.

For readers unfamiliar with DEC vocabulary, the FORMAT
command did NOT create a file structure!  That command
in RT-11 was INITIALIZE and something similar was
probably used for RSTS/E and RSX-11.  Note that under
RT-11, the FORMAT command for the RX02 did NOT
perform an LLF, but did set the density bit in each sector
if an LLF had already been performed and was sufficiently
intact to support clearing out all the data in the sector setting
and the density bit to the value requested by the user.

In practice, I found that when an RX02 floppy started having
problems, the LLF was VERY rarely a problem.  For reasons
which were not understood, when the floppy media started to
have read and or write errors, it was usually possible to have
the RX02 floppy drive perform the software command which
DEC called FORMAT and re-initialize all the sectors so that
the media could be used again without any read and or write
errors.  That obviously would have required the LLF to be
sufficiently present for the software and hardware to repair
the problems and reset all the sectors as either single-density
or double-density depending on what the user requested.

I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this example.

>>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11. 
>>
>> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their 
>> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>>
>>     Johnny
>
If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on
the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be
performed on a PDP-11?  There seems to be a number of possibilities:

(a)  There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing
       on the PDP-11 systems
(b)  The firmware in the controller on the Rainbow supported an LLF,
       but the firmware in the controller on the RQDX1, RQDX2 or RQDX3
       on the PDP-11 did not support an LLF
(c)  The Rainbow used a program which DEC supplied that could
       perform an LLF, but DEC did not supply such a program for
       the PDP-11 systems
(d)  Another possibility of which I am not aware.

Is there an answer as to which possibility supported the Rainbow
being able to perform an LLF using an RX50 drive, but that the
PDP-11 systems with that same RX50 could not perform an LLF?

>> Take me back to my desk in DECPark thirty years ago and I could have 
>> pulled out the internal documents on this.
>
>      I cant do that so we will have to make do with my dodgy memory.
> When floppy disks first appeared end users just wanted to take the 
> disk out of the box and use it.
> They could not see why they should waste time preparing every new one.
> They did not need matching to a particular drive as DEC's 
> manufacturing tolerances made sure any disk would work on any drive.
>
> In fact it was more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted 
> disks.
> It was more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept 
> running.
>
> I heard the following story
>
> One customer went out and got a huge pile of unformatted (and 
> untested) floppys and a third party format program.
> He expected DEC to make it work.
>
> The account manager asked to see his DEC maintainance contract and had 
> to be restrained  from  tearing it up.
> Through the window of the office was building site and the inevitable 
> 50 gallon oil drum burning rubbish.
> He was offered a choice; he could put the disks or the contract in the 
> burning drum.
>
> Rod Smallwood
>
>
>
>
> DEC supplied pre formatted disks 

I don't know how to respond since different individuals will
interpret your story in the opposite manner,  So I will add
my own experience when I used the RX02 drive from DEC
along with the DSD RX03 floppy drive.

Around 1990 after I had acquired the DSD RX03 floppy
drive in a DSD 880/30 system, I also managed to acquire
many brands of 8" floppy media.  At that point, I had not
yet managed to acquire any tape hardware such as the TK25
which supported a 32 MB disk image, so the floppies were
my primary backup.  I probably had about a dozen different
brands of 8" floppies that required an LLF before they could
be used.  And since a double-density, double-sided 8" floppy
media held about 1 MB (1976 blocks) as opposed to about
1/2 MB (988 blocks) for double-density, single-sided media,
I set set about the task of enhancing the DEC  DY.MAC  RX02
device driver after I found the code in V04.00 of RT-11 which
included support for double-sided media.

What may be called "interesting" was that DEC had removed
all of that optional code in DY.MAC by the time V05.00 of
RT-11 was released.  That might have had something to do
with the fact that DEC never sold (that I heard of) an RX03
drive.

In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite
easy.  The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer
being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB
of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since
the controller supported only 18-bit addresses.

Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies
was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided
floppies.  That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch
to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and
that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single-
sided index hole.  While a number of 8" floppies had been
purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less
than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes
in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly
apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time
solution.  What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the
single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with
the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes
were in different positions.  The timing did not seem to matter.
Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one
way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated
was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!)
wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a
double-sided floppy.

In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS
supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive
under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor.  So I set about the job of the
LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media.  As mentioned above,
in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about
a dozen other brands.  To make a long story short at this point,
the results were "interesting".  Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy
could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density.  On the other
hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8"
floppies managed to complete the LLF.  The other 1/3 of the
DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side,
but not on the second side.

Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not
necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability
with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked.  In addition,
there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and
there was no 50 gallon oil drum.  There was also no refusal
by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support
the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked.

Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was
even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to
take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed
to do so.  There was probably one floppy that was so severely
damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that
was a specific exception.  Any 8" floppy which could take a
double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully
when used in practice.

In any case, I also ask the questions:

(a)  Was it more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted
       disks?
(b)  FOR  WHOM was it more difficult and expensive to provide
       pre-formatted disks (DEC or the user)?
(c)  Was it more about customer service and making sure the
       equipment kept running?
(d)  Was it more about DEC charging about TEN times the price
       for pre-formatted disks over the price for un-formatted disks
       and having a technician take the time to do the LLF (about
       2 minutes for each double-sided, double-density floppy or
       about 30 floppies an hour)?  At the time, I seem to remember
       that a box of 10 pre-formatted 8" floppies from DEC was
       about $ 50 while a box of 10 un-formatted 8" floppies was
       about $ 5 a box.  If a technician could format 3 boxes of
       8" floppies in an hour, that would seem to save that user
       about $ 135 which would probably be less expensive for
       the user.
(e)  Was it equally reliable and less expensive to use non-DEC
       unformatted 8" floppies if the user had the necessary
       hardware and or software to pre-format the floppies?

Also, I want to be sure to add that in my experience, RT-11
is probably the best written and documented operating system
that I have encountered.  While there are still a few bugs that
can actually crash the operating system and many enhancements
were and are still needed, RT-11 is mostly stable and easy to
use.  RT-11 obviously lacks any security when running under
an UnMapped Monitor since the user has access to all of the
memory.  Even with a Mapped Monitor, a user program can
gain access to the Monitor.  But RT-11 was not designed to
be secure in the first place.  So I still think that DEC did an
exceptional job - especially since almost all programs written
for the very first version of RT-11 can still run under the latest
version.

Jerome Fine

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 11:30:48 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:30:48 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
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 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
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 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
 <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <560030B8.60700@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 17:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>>> I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
>>>> I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?
>>>
>>> As far as I know, it can't. An RX02 can read/write an RX01 disk, but the software
>>> interface to the controller is so different (the RX)2 uses DMA, the RX01 doesn't for
>>> one thing) that the RX02 cannot boot an RX01 disk.
>>
>> Of course an RX02 *drive* can read an RX01 *floppy*. And yes, a system with an RX211 and an RX02 *drive* can boot from a floppy that what written by an RX01 *drive*. But you need the boot code for an RX211 controller, and that boot code also needs to handle RX01 format floppies. If the boot sector on the floppy is for an RX11, then no, an RX211 will not understand things. The programming model for the two controllers are different. You need different device drivers.
>>
>> But this is really a question about the controller and the software running it, not the floppy or the drive.
>
> And it would certainly be possible to write a driver that can handle both controllers; it would start by determining which controller it's dealing with, and then run the one or the other set of algorithms.  Since a boot block is just a small driver, the same is true there, so long as the whole body of code fits in the available space.  I suspect in this case that's doable; most bootloaders (other than MSCP ones) require only a small fraction of the available space.

You are absolutely right.
And I don't know the actual size of the boot blocks. It might very well 
be that they both fits in the same boot block, which would be nice.
I know that the M9312 have separate boot roms for the RX11 and the 
RX211, but those boot roms are pretty tiny...

And I don't know if the RX211 boot rom also deals with RX01 floppies, 
but I would assume it does.

	Johnny


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 11:34:03 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:34:03 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
Message-ID: <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
> On 9/21/2015 4:30 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
>> On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>>> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
>> 
>> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their
>> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>> 
>>    Johnny
>> 
> 
> There was also a standalone PDP-11 diagnostic program available that
> could do it.

For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.

I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 11:35:19 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:35:19 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
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 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 02:24 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> CHAIN is in no way similar to overlays. COMMONs, if available, is a
> nice way to preserve some data between different programs running.
> CHAIN is (like someone said), about the same as a LOAD followed by a
> RUN.
>
> So, how is this different than overlays? Well, with overlays, you
> only replace parts of your code. Some other parts stay around, as
> well as all volatile data. So, you can still call code that is in the
> resident part of memory, and which is not replaced by a different
> overlay.
>
> And yes, there are BASICs that can work with overlays. See DECs
> BASIC+2. Has both commons, overlays and CHAIN. And if run under
> RSTS/E if also have a core common block, which can be used to pass
> data between programs when CHAINing.
>
> I wonder what FORTRAN-style overlay hierarchy means. I know of
> overlays, and on DEC OSes, it is a common technique, provided by the
> linker, and is not tied to a specific language.


That's true--but a first encounter with the notion, at least for me, 
involved FORTRAN, not any language.  For example, consider that in the 
CDC FTN reference, overlays are put ahead of I/O.

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/lang/fortran/60174900F_FTN_2.3_Ref_Jul72.pdf

PDF page 77 et seq.

I did say that the CHAIN statement was the equivalent of overlaying the 
(0,0) overlay and perhaps the above reference shows what I mean.

COBOL also used overlays, and they were part of the standard language 
and worked somewhat differently.  See

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/lang/cobol/60191200_COBOL_Reference_Jun67.pdf

PDF page 73 et seq.

I do know what the BASIC CHAIN statement means.

In the early 80s, I headed a team that implemented a multi-user 
commercial BASIC on an 8085 micro system, eventually migrated to XENIX 
and was in use in some places up until a few years ago.  I still have a 
couple of the design documents in my files--as well as the mandatory 
(for then) t-shirt and coffee mug.

One of the lessons I learned from the experience is that compilation to 
native machine code does not always result in faster code than P-code 
implementations.

--Chuck



From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 11:36:20 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:36:20 +0200
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
Message-ID: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>

Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Historische-EDV-Lochkartenstanzer-Card-Punch-von-1973-2000-Lochkarten-/371439456530?hash=item567b845112

Not mine.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 21 11:38:21 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:38:21 -0500
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601d0f48b$edb8b100$c92a1300$@classiccmp.org>

That is simply gorgeous.




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 11:40:38 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:40:38 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>,
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on
> the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be

It is. Remember the RX50 is just a drive, it does not include any of
the controller electronics.

> performed on a PDP-11?  There seems to be a number of possibilities:

> (a)  There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing
>        on the PDP-11 systems

It's more the reverse!. The Rainbow just has a standard controller chip on the 
processor bus (I forget which processor, I can look at the schematics if you
want). The controller chip can do what is needed for a LLF, and there is
nothing in the way to prevent software from sending the commands to do
that.

On the PDP11 there is a lot more stuff between the processor and the disk
controller chip. Even the Pro 300 series has a microcontroller (8051?) on
the floppy controller board. Therefore the processor you can program
(PDP11) can't do arbitrary things to the disk controller chip, it is very likely
that sending the right commands to do an LLF is one of the things you
can't do.

-tony

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 11:43:41 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:43:41 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <560033BD.8000101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 18:29, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
>> >On 21/09/2015 10:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>> >On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>>
>>>> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
>>>> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
>>>> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
>>>> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
>>>> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
>>>> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
>>>> that function as well.
>>>>
>>>> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
>>>> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
>>>> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
>>>> did not seem like the individual was pretending.
>>>>
>>>> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
>>>> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
>>>> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
>>>> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
>>>> density or double density in addition to being both single
>>>> sided and double sided.
>>>
>>> Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format,
>>> which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format.
>>> RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02
>>> mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02
>>> drive is able to do that.
>>
> I am not sure that I understand your suggestion.  While I agree
> that the RX02 was able to switch a single-density floppy to a
> double-density floppy (and visa versa), the difficulty, as you
> pointed out, was performing the initial LLF (Low Level
> Formatting) in the first place on Un-Formatted 8" floppies.
> That may have been easy with IBM hardware, but DEC
> made that impossible if all the user had was a DEC system.

Agreed. The DEC RX01 and RX02 drives could not do a low level format. 
But your comment above suggested you needed to find some special drive 
and controller combo which supported RX02 floppies, which would just be 
irrelevant. If you could format the floppy anywhere, to just IBM SSSD 
format, then you were good.

The RX02 special stuff is something you then did on an RX02.

>>>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>>>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>>>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>>>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
>>>
>>> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their
>>> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>
> If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on
> the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be
> performed on a PDP-11?  There seems to be a number of possibilities:
>
> (a)  There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing
>        on the PDP-11 systems

No.

> (b)  The firmware in the controller on the Rainbow supported an LLF,
>        but the firmware in the controller on the RQDX1, RQDX2 or RQDX3
>        on the PDP-11 did not support an LLF

Quite possible.

> (c)  The Rainbow used a program which DEC supplied that could
>        perform an LLF, but DEC did not supply such a program for
>        the PDP-11 systems

Also quite possible. And would be what Jay Jager claims. I don't know 
myself. I know that RSX refuses to even try formatting an RX50. If it in 
fact could, I don't know. But the floppy drive itself obviously could. 
(One reason why some places bought Rainbows in fact...)

>>> Take me back to my desk in DECPark thirty years ago and I could have
>>> pulled out the internal documents on this.
>>
>>      I cant do that so we will have to make do with my dodgy memory.
>> When floppy disks first appeared end users just wanted to take the
>> disk out of the box and use it.
>> They could not see why they should waste time preparing every new one.
>> They did not need matching to a particular drive as DEC's
>> manufacturing tolerances made sure any disk would work on any drive.
>>
>> In fact it was more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted
>> disks.
>> It was more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept
>> running.
>>
>> I heard the following story
>>
>> One customer went out and got a huge pile of unformatted (and
>> untested) floppys and a third party format program.
>> He expected DEC to make it work.
>>
>> The account manager asked to see his DEC maintainance contract and had
>> to be restrained  from  tearing it up.
>> Through the window of the office was building site and the inevitable
>> 50 gallon oil drum burning rubbish.
>> He was offered a choice; he could put the disks or the contract in the
>> burning drum.
>>
>> Rod Smallwood
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> DEC supplied pre formatted disks
>
> I don't know how to respond since different individuals will
> interpret your story in the opposite manner,  So I will add
> my own experience when I used the RX02 drive from DEC
> along with the DSD RX03 floppy drive.
>
> Around 1990 after I had acquired the DSD RX03 floppy
> drive in a DSD 880/30 system, I also managed to acquire
> many brands of 8" floppy media.  At that point, I had not
> yet managed to acquire any tape hardware such as the TK25
> which supported a 32 MB disk image, so the floppies were
> my primary backup.  I probably had about a dozen different
> brands of 8" floppies that required an LLF before they could
> be used.  And since a double-density, double-sided 8" floppy
> media held about 1 MB (1976 blocks) as opposed to about
> 1/2 MB (988 blocks) for double-density, single-sided media,
> I set set about the task of enhancing the DEC  DY.MAC  RX02
> device driver after I found the code in V04.00 of RT-11 which
> included support for double-sided media.
>
> What may be called "interesting" was that DEC had removed
> all of that optional code in DY.MAC by the time V05.00 of
> RT-11 was released.  That might have had something to do
> with the fact that DEC never sold (that I heard of) an RX03
> drive.
>
> In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite
> easy.  The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer
> being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB
> of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since
> the controller supported only 18-bit addresses.

This would be the Qbus controller. And that is an annoying detail, yes. 
You need a bounce buffer in the low part of memory. One of a few Qbus 
controllers with 18-bit addressing for DMA.

> Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies
> was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided
> floppies.  That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch
> to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and
> that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single-
> sided index hole.  While a number of 8" floppies had been
> purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less
> than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes
> in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly
> apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time
> solution.  What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the
> single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with
> the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes
> were in different positions.  The timing did not seem to matter.
> Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one
> way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated
> was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!)
> wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a
> double-sided floppy.
>
> In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS
> supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive
> under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor.  So I set about the job of the
> LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media.  As mentioned above,
> in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about
> a dozen other brands.  To make a long story short at this point,
> the results were "interesting".  Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy
> could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density.  On the other
> hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8"
> floppies managed to complete the LLF.  The other 1/3 of the
> DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side,
> but not on the second side.
>
> Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not
> necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability
> with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked.  In addition,
> there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and
> there was no 50 gallon oil drum.  There was also no refusal
> by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support
> the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked.
>
> Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was
> even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to
> take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed
> to do so.  There was probably one floppy that was so severely
> damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that
> was a specific exception.  Any 8" floppy which could take a
> double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully
> when used in practice.

Probably qualification differences. DEC only cared if one side was good. 
So floppies with one bad side were still acceptable for DEC, since they 
only used one side anyway.
Floppies sold as double sided needed to pass testing on both sides.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 11:47:02 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:47:02 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56003486.7030606@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 18:34, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/21/2015 4:30 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>>>> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>>> Note that the RX50 was the same.  DEC finally changed
>>>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>>>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>>>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
>>>
>>> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their
>>> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>>
>>
>> There was also a standalone PDP-11 diagnostic program available that
>> could do it.
>
> For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.

For Unibus, the controller would be the RUX50. MSCP, as you say. And I 
suspect that one didn't do formatting.

For Qbus, it would be the RQDX, which was MSCP, and did both the RD 
disks and RX50. I'm not sure, but I think the RQDX could perform some 
sort of low level formatting for the RD anyway. Not sure what it would 
say if you pointed it at the RX...

> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.

Ugh! The PRO controller probably was weird enough to not allow you, even 
though as far as I understand, it was also way more primitive than MSCP.

	Johnny


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 11:49:47 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:49:47 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5600352B.9060002@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 08:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Valdocs influenced the perception and image of the machine.

That.  All the QX10 conversion jobs I've ever received have been for 
valdocs documents.  Nothing, in the way of accounting, process conrol, 
etc.  I can do accounting on many word processors, but they're still 
fundamentally word processors.

--Chuck

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Mon Sep 21 12:04:12 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:04:12 -0700
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

Ooh that is nice

?
73 Eugene W2HX
?


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 12:36 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany

Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Historische-EDV-Lochkartenstanzer-Card-Punch-von-1973-2000-Lochkarten-/371439456530?hash=item567b845112

Not mine.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 12:14:18 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:14:18 +0100
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
Message-ID: <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com>

Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of W2HX
> Sent: 21 September 2015 18:04
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
> 
> Ooh that is nice
> 
> 
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 12:36 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
> 
> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:
> 
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Historische-EDV-Lochkartenstanzer-Card-Punch-
> von-1973-2000-Lochkarten-/371439456530?hash=item567b845112
> 
> Not mine.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 12:20:36 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:20:36 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56003486.7030606@update.uu.se>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
 <56003486.7030606@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <9325E177-F1FA-4B0C-9229-8153E140BE04@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> ...
>> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
> 
> Ugh! The PRO controller probably was weird enough to not allow you, even though as far as I understand, it was also way more primitive than MSCP.

Way more primitive is a polite way of putting it.  Just like all other PRO controllers DEC ever built, it uses programmed I/O.  The curious thing is that the PRO bus actually appears to support DMA, but it was never used, not even for the hard drive or network interface.  All those devices do I/O to on-card memory, and then the driver has to move it to/from host memory.

I haven't tried this, but the PRO technical manual (on Bitsavers) shows that (a) there is no way to do formatting, but (b) you can configure the controller to accept, for reading but not writing, various non-RX50 formats.

	paul



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 21 12:22:07 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:22:07 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
References: <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150921172207.GB53179@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Not that I care what Holm Tiffe smokes, but I can at least comment what 
> you write, Tony. :-)
> 
> On 2015-09-21 16:02, tony duell wrote:
> >
> >[Russian PDP11-a-like]
> 
> All bets are off when we talk about clones, since they might be rather 
> different in details...
> 
> >>I've tried to boot an RX01 Floppy in RX02 mode, that failed on all disks
> >>I've tried. Is an original RX02 able to boot (RT11) from an RX01 disk?
> >
> >As far as I know, it can't. An RX02 can read/write an RX01 disk, but the 
> >software
> >interface to the controller is so different (the RX)2 uses DMA, the RX01 
> >doesn't for
> >one thing) that the RX02 cannot boot an RX01 disk.

Hmm..

I don't know if the Controller board (Inside the Computer) would
be "RX02-able" when I read this.

Just FYI:

http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/E60-06.jpg

That's the I4 Controller board that is connected with a flat cable to the
Drive..working as RX01 at least..

And that is the Controller Board in the Drive itself, the red cable goes
tro the I4 Board in The computer:

http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/disk-proz.jpg

..and if I look at this picuture it looks more that it contains AM2909
sequencers instead of an AM2910..

> 
> Of course an RX02 *drive* can read an RX01 *floppy*. And yes, a system 
> with an RX211 and an RX02 *drive* can boot from a floppy that what 
> written by an RX01 *drive*. But you need the boot code for an RX211 
> controller, and that boot code also needs to handle RX01 format 
> floppies. If the boot sector on the floppy is for an RX11, then no, an 
> RX211 will not understand things. The programming model for the two 
> controllers are different. You need different device drivers.
> 
> But this is really a question about the controller and the software 
> running it, not the floppy or the drive.
> 
> >>I know that a different device driver has to be used  normally, but I had
> >>no RX02 media and wasn't able to make one, since the machine has no other
> >>drives connected and the card cage is mechanically not compatible (metric
> >>dimensions including the fingers).
> >>I know that in the RX02 Mode the Drive has an format track command that
> >>doesn't exist in RX01 mode, that's documented. How about the RX02?
> >
> >The RX02 has a 'set density' command that can be used to reformat a
> >formatted single density disk as double density.
> 
> Yes. And it's just flipping a bit in the sector header. And the drive 
> changes between the densities for the data part of each sector. So you 
> can actually have different densities on a per-sector basis with an RX02 
> drive.
> 
> >>Is there somewhere a picture from the Conteroller PCB of the DEC RX02
> >>(just to look at). The russian controller has a 2910 and four 2901 if
> >>I remember correctly... (K1804VU1 and 4xK1804VS1)
> >
> >The RX02 drive contains a couple of 2901s and a few of the sequencer chips
> >(I think 2911s, maybe 2909s). I've seen a 3rd party Qbus card that 
> >connected to
> >normal Shugart drives and which could red/write RX02 disks, I think that 
> >had
> >a couple of 2901s and a 2910 on it.
> 
> What people need to understand is that there are a bunch of controllers 
> and combinations. If we just contain our self to Unibus controllers, we 
> have two. The RX11 and RX211. The RX11 works with both the RX01 and 
> RX02. However, an RX02 needs to be set in an RX01-compatible mode if 
> used with an RX11 (a couple of dip-switches in the drive). And that also 
> turns it into essentially an RX01 (can't deal with double density within 
> the RX11 interface). The interface to an RX01 is different than the 
> interface to an RX02, even though they use the same flat cable.

Ok, got it. But I know that this russian drive has the described Jumper
for switching between RX01 and RX02, but I don't know what this requires as
Controller in the computer...

> 
> The RX211 can be used with both an RX01 and an RX02, as far as I can 
> remember. But that implies that there would need to be some switch or 
> jumper on the RX211 in order to interface it with an RX01 (or some 
> automatic detection), and I can't remember seeing that. But it might 
> just be my memory failing me.
> But the RX211 works differently than the RX11, so from a program point 
> of view, they are totally different.
> 
> The RX02 drive, then, in turn, can read and write both RX01 and RX02 
> floppies. No special tricks are required. The drive will detect, for 
> each sector, which format it is in, and will switch mode accordingly, 
> and return the right about of data (RX02 sectors holds 256 bytes, while 
> RX01 sectors holds 128 bytes). The software can thus also easily see 
> what type of floppy it is reading.
> RX211 device drivers obviously then can handle both RX01 and RX02 
> floppies, when used with an RX02 drive. And from the software point of 
> view, the sectors just contains different amount of data.
> 
> 	Johnny

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 12:22:35 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:22:35 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <5600352B.9060002@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net>, <5600352B.9060002@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54E4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> > Valdocs influenced the perception and image of the machine.
> 
> That.  All the QX10 conversion jobs I've ever received have been for
> valdocs documents.  Nothing, in the way of accounting, process conrol,
> etc.  I can do accounting on many word processors, but they're still
> fundamentally word processors.

Have you ever read the technical manual for the QX10?

It appears there were 2 keyboards sold for it. One had Valdocs-specific
keys, the other (which seems more common over here, not that the QX10
is a common machine) doesn't and was used for a more standard
CP/M system. 

I see absolutely no reason why the latter could not run spreadsheets,
accounting programs, language compilers/interpreters, etc.

-tony

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 12:31:13 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:31:13 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>

Not CP/M admittedly, but small contemporary
Burroughs machines certainly used cassettes, both
for program and data storage. I wrote several
fairly complex diskless accounting systems using
four cassette drives, one or two card readers and
a line printer (in addition to the console
printer).

Why not; not much different conceptually after all
from early systems using open-reel mag tape, or
even punch(ed) cards.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: Multi-platform distribution format
(Was: Backups [was


> On 09/20/2015 09:55 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Gee, I thought we were talking about CP/M
>>> here.  How many CP/M
>>> systems used cassette for storage.  Better
>>> yet, how many
>>> commerical/industrial CP/M systems used
>>> cassettes for program
>>> storage.
>>
>> Epson PX8?
>
> That's a commercial or industrial system?  Did
> it run an EDM setup, turret lathe  or
> vacuforming machine?  Anyone keep their AR, AP,
> GL, payroll and inventory on one?   I doubt that
> one could run a PBX.
>
> I never looked at the Geneva or QX-10 as much
> more than word processing setups.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 12:35:09 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:35:09 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>,<904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Not CP/M admittedly, but small contemporary
> Burroughs machines certainly used cassettes, both
> for program and data storage. I wrote several
> fairly complex diskless accounting systems using
> four cassette drives, one or two card readers and
> a line printer (in addition to the console
> printer).
> 
> Why not; not much different conceptually after all
> from early systems using open-reel mag tape, or
> even punch(ed) cards.

I feel there are 2 distinct types of cassette system from the
user perspective. 

The first is the sort used on 1980s home computers with a
standard or slightly modified (Commodore, Atari) audio
cassette recorder. These needed considerable manual
intervention to position the tape (rewind, fast forward),
select record or play mode, etc. Essentially only useable
for loading/saving programs and sequential files

The second has the tape mechanism under computer control
like the HP9830 (HP9865 add-on drive too), this Burroughs
the PX8, etc. With these you can load particular files, rewrite
files, possibly have a block-structured file system. Often these
units (but not the PX8) used a special tape with a different
coercivity to audio tape.

The second type would seem to be entirely useable for
'business' computing before floppy drives were 
available. I am not so sure about the first type :-)

-tony

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep 21 12:51:17 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:51:17 +0100
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560033BD.8000101@update.uu.se>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to> <560033BD.8000101@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56004395.7050206@btinternet.com>



On 21/09/2015 17:43, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-21 18:29, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>  >Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>
>>> >On 21/09/2015 10:30, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>
>>>> >On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that
>>>>> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> For both the DEC  RX01 and the DEC  RX02 8" floppy drives,
>>>>> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable
>>>>> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low
>>>>> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after
>>>>> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported
>>>>> that function as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be
>>>>> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC.  Well, if you
>>>>> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly
>>>>> did not seem like the individual was pretending.
>>>>>
>>>>> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design)
>>>>> drive which supported the DEC  RX02 floppy drive function,
>>>>> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly.  The
>>>>> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single
>>>>> density or double density in addition to being both single
>>>>> sided and double sided.
>>>>
>>>> Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format,
>>>> which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format.
>>>> RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02
>>>> mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02
>>>> drive is able to do that.
>>>
>> I am not sure that I understand your suggestion.  While I agree
>> that the RX02 was able to switch a single-density floppy to a
>> double-density floppy (and visa versa), the difficulty, as you
>> pointed out, was performing the initial LLF (Low Level
>> Formatting) in the first place on Un-Formatted 8" floppies.
>> That may have been easy with IBM hardware, but DEC
>> made that impossible if all the user had was a DEC system.
>
> Agreed. The DEC RX01 and RX02 drives could not do a low level format. 
> But your comment above suggested you needed to find some special drive 
> and controller combo which supported RX02 floppies, which would just 
> be irrelevant. If you could format the floppy anywhere, to just IBM 
> SSSD format, then you were good.
>
> The RX02 special stuff is something you then did on an RX02.
>
>>>>> Note that the RX50 was the same. DEC finally changed
>>>>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the
>>>>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC.  It was actually
>>>>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11.
>>>>
>>>> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their
>>>> own, but only on the Rainbow.
>>>>
>>>>     Johnny
>>>
>> If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on
>> the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be
>> performed on a PDP-11?  There seems to be a number of possibilities:
>>
>> (a)  There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing
>>        on the PDP-11 systems
>
> No.
>
>> (b)  The firmware in the controller on the Rainbow supported an LLF,
>>        but the firmware in the controller on the RQDX1, RQDX2 or RQDX3
>>        on the PDP-11 did not support an LLF
>
> Quite possible.
>
>> (c)  The Rainbow used a program which DEC supplied that could
>>        perform an LLF, but DEC did not supply such a program for
>>        the PDP-11 systems
>
> Also quite possible. And would be what Jay Jager claims. I don't know 
> myself. I know that RSX refuses to even try formatting an RX50. If it 
> in fact could, I don't know. But the floppy drive itself obviously 
> could. (One reason why some places bought Rainbows in fact...)
>
>>>> Take me back to my desk in DECPark thirty years ago and I could have
>>>> pulled out the internal documents on this.
>>>
>>>      I cant do that so we will have to make do with my dodgy memory.
>>> When floppy disks first appeared end users just wanted to take the
>>> disk out of the box and use it.
>>> They could not see why they should waste time preparing every new one.
>>> They did not need matching to a particular drive as DEC's
>>> manufacturing tolerances made sure any disk would work on any drive.
>>>
>>> In fact it was more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted
>>> disks.
>>> It was more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept
>>> running.
>>>
>>> I heard the following story
>>>
>>> One customer went out and got a huge pile of unformatted (and
>>> untested) floppys and a third party format program.
>>> He expected DEC to make it work.
>>>
>>> The account manager asked to see his DEC maintainance contract and had
>>> to be restrained  from  tearing it up.
>>> Through the window of the office was building site and the inevitable
>>> 50 gallon oil drum burning rubbish.
>>> He was offered a choice; he could put the disks or the contract in the
>>> burning drum.
>>>
>>> Rod Smallwood
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DEC supplied pre formatted disks
>>
>> I don't know how to respond since different individuals will
>> interpret your story in the opposite manner,  So I will add
>> my own experience when I used the RX02 drive from DEC
>> along with the DSD RX03 floppy drive.
>>
>> Around 1990 after I had acquired the DSD RX03 floppy
>> drive in a DSD 880/30 system, I also managed to acquire
>> many brands of 8" floppy media.  At that point, I had not
>> yet managed to acquire any tape hardware such as the TK25
>> which supported a 32 MB disk image, so the floppies were
>> my primary backup.  I probably had about a dozen different
>> brands of 8" floppies that required an LLF before they could
>> be used.  And since a double-density, double-sided 8" floppy
>> media held about 1 MB (1976 blocks) as opposed to about
>> 1/2 MB (988 blocks) for double-density, single-sided media,
>> I set set about the task of enhancing the DEC  DY.MAC  RX02
>> device driver after I found the code in V04.00 of RT-11 which
>> included support for double-sided media.
>>
>> What may be called "interesting" was that DEC had removed
>> all of that optional code in DY.MAC by the time V05.00 of
>> RT-11 was released.  That might have had something to do
>> with the fact that DEC never sold (that I heard of) an RX03
>> drive.
>>
>> In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite
>> easy.  The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer
>> being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB
>> of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since
>> the controller supported only 18-bit addresses.
>
> This would be the Qbus controller. And that is an annoying detail, 
> yes. You need a bounce buffer in the low part of memory. One of a few 
> Qbus controllers with 18-bit addressing for DMA.
>
>> Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies
>> was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided
>> floppies.  That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch
>> to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and
>> that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single-
>> sided index hole.  While a number of 8" floppies had been
>> purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less
>> than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes
>> in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly
>> apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time
>> solution.  What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the
>> single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with
>> the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes
>> were in different positions.  The timing did not seem to matter.
>> Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one
>> way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated
>> was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!)
>> wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a
>> double-sided floppy.
>>
>> In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS
>> supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive
>> under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor.  So I set about the job of the
>> LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media.  As mentioned above,
>> in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about
>> a dozen other brands.  To make a long story short at this point,
>> the results were "interesting".  Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy
>> could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density.  On the other
>> hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8"
>> floppies managed to complete the LLF.  The other 1/3 of the
>> DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side,
>> but not on the second side.
>>
>> Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not
>> necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability
>> with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked.  In addition,
>> there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and
>> there was no 50 gallon oil drum.  There was also no refusal
>> by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support
>> the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked.
>>
>> Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was
>> even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to
>> take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed
>> to do so.  There was probably one floppy that was so severely
>> damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that
>> was a specific exception.  Any 8" floppy which could take a
>> double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully
>> when used in practice.
>
> Probably qualification differences. DEC only cared if one side was 
> good. So floppies with one bad side were still acceptable for DEC, 
> since they only used one side anyway.
> Floppies sold as double sided needed to pass testing on both sides.
>
>     Johnny
>
How true it was I don't  know It came from the Product Line (marketing).
The person who I got it from passed away a few years back.

You need to know how DEC worked to understand how things like sell only 
preformatted  came about.

Sales policy was  a product line decision.

The Product Lines would decide what they needed for their particular 
market and put a business plan together.
  This included what sort of products and services they required.
If the board agreed the plan then the product line would have funds 
available to
go to the various provider groups (R&D, Manufacturing, Sales, Field 
Service etc.) to get what they needed .

If you consider DEC corporate like a venture capitalist and the 
marketing groups as companies needing to fund a product.
Then thats not far off.

Dec was strong on engineering but  the marketing groups defined what got 
sold and how.

As a DEC Salesman you usually worked for one product line.
When asked who was your biggest competitor the answer was usually DEC!
What was ment was another product line offering the same product at a 
different price.

Rod












-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From brain at jbrain.com  Mon Sep 21 12:51:58 2015
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:51:58 -0500
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
Message-ID: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>

I was wondering if anyone has or knows anyone who has experience with 
low volume sheet metal enclosure fabrication?  I am looking for a 
fabricator to build small (think game cartridge enclosure sizes) 
clamshell units (or similar).

I thought before I start cold calling folks, I'd see if someone has 
already had some success.

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 12:52:34 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:52:34 -0700
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in
Message-ID: <004701d0f496$4c9e9f40$e5dbddc0$@gmail.com>

Wow. Thanks for sharing. What a beautiful looking machine. I hope one of us
gets it.
Marc

=====================================
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:36:20 +0200
From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>
Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Historische-EDV-Lochkartenstanzer-Card-Punch-von-1973
-2000-Lochkarten-/371439456530?hash=item567b845112
Not mine.


From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Mon Sep 21 12:54:44 2015
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:54:44 -0400
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
In-Reply-To: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>
References: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <A4D7041E-203A-4378-AD62-3DB64BF7B4A9@VMSSoftware.com>

There are a lot of folks in VMS on the metal fabrication and I just happen to know someone that has opened a small volume fabrication company on Cape Cod.  Do I have your ok to forward?

Sue


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 1:51 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has or knows anyone who has experience with low volume sheet metal enclosure fabrication?  I am looking for a fabricator to build small (think game cartridge enclosure sizes) clamshell units (or similar).
> 
> I thought before I start cold calling folks, I'd see if someone has already had some success.
> 
> -- 
> Jim Brain
> brain at jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
> 

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations




From brain at jbrain.com  Mon Sep 21 12:55:45 2015
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:55:45 -0500
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
In-Reply-To: <A4D7041E-203A-4378-AD62-3DB64BF7B4A9@VMSSoftware.com>
References: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>
 <A4D7041E-203A-4378-AD62-3DB64BF7B4A9@VMSSoftware.com>
Message-ID: <560044A1.8000108@jbrain.com>

On 9/21/2015 12:54 PM, Sue Skonetski wrote:
> There are a lot of folks in VMS on the metal fabrication and I just happen to know someone that has opened a small volume fabrication company on Cape Cod.  Do I have your ok to forward?
Yep, please do.

Jim


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 13:11:29 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:11:29 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54E4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <5600352B.9060002@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54E4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <56004851.2070003@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote:

> Have you ever read the technical manual for the QX10?
>
> It appears there were 2 keyboards sold for it. One had Valdocs-specific
> keys, the other (which seems more common over here, not that the QX10
> is a common machine) doesn't and was used for a more standard
> CP/M system.

Yes, as well as a fair amount of TP/M source code.  It's just that the 
QX-10s strong selling point was Valdocs and that's mostly why people 
bought the thing.

On the subject of cassette machines, here's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8oXxO5FT3A

1991, 68K-based controller, dual color CRT with graphics.  Some have 
been upgraded to floppy--if so, they're running CP/M 68K, but this 
appears to be the original cassette model.

--Chuck




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 13:17:03 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net> <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>,<904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net>

> > Why not; not much different conceptually after all
> > from early systems using open-reel mag tape, or
> > even punch(ed) cards.
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, tony duell wrote:
> I feel there are 2 distinct types of cassette system from the
> user perspective. 
>
> The first is the sort used on 1980s home computers with a
> standard or slightly modified (Commodore, Atari) audio
> cassette recorder. These needed considerable manual
> . . . 
> The second has the tape mechanism under computer control
> . . . 
> The second type would seem to be entirely useable for
> 'business' computing before floppy drives were 
> available. I am not so sure about the first type :-)

and, of course, as a third type, Exatron Stringy-Floppy
computer based, but NOT entirely usable.




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 13:22:21 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56004851.2070003@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net> <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D541D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509210850090.19534@shell.lmi.net> <5600352B.9060002@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54E4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <56004851.2070003@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211118460.19534@shell.lmi.net>

Ah, but when people with Valdocs wanted to change to another 
word-processing system, as was likely to happen often in business, they 
would contact, Chuck, me, or any of our colleagues in the disk format 
conversion field.

The CP/M users might not have as frequent a conversion need, and/or might 
be more likely to make use of other options, such as XMODEM.

Accordingly, WE saw Valdocs users more often than the other QX-10 users.



On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/21/2015 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote:
>
>> Have you ever read the technical manual for the QX10?
>> 
>> It appears there were 2 keyboards sold for it. One had Valdocs-specific
>> keys, the other (which seems more common over here, not that the QX10
>> is a common machine) doesn't and was used for a more standard
>> CP/M system.
>
> Yes, as well as a fair amount of TP/M source code.  It's just that the QX-10s 
> strong selling point was Valdocs and that's mostly why people bought the 
> thing.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 21 13:28:35 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:28:35 -0500
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
In-Reply-To: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>
References: <560043BE.3090004@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01d0f49b$544f0f40$fced2dc0$@classiccmp.org>


I have a somewhat similar question....

A couple items in my holdings have rust, typically on large sheet metal outer enclosures. A prime example is the pedestal for my DG TP1 printing terminal. The only good solution I could see is having the existing metalwork sandblasted and then repainted. I've not checked, but I suspect that's "non-trivial-$".

Thoughts?

J



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 13:31:11 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:31:11 -0700
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com> <904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56004CEF.1020305@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 11:17 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> and, of course, as a third type, Exatron Stringy-Floppy computer
> based, but NOT entirely usable.

I was hoping that nobody would mention that thing.  Okay, I'll add the 
TI Wafertape...

--Chuck


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Sep 21 13:33:38 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:33:38 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <20150921172207.GB53179@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se> <20150921172207.GB53179@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150921183338.GD57483@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:
[..]

..forgot to mention one interesting thing:
The E60 is that PDP11 clone on which Alexei Paschitnow wrote the original
of Tetris...

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Sep 21 13:37:13 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:37:13 -0700
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
 <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56004E59.407@jwsss.com>



On 9/21/2015 10:14 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice.
I used 029's in 1971, and they had been around for at least a year or 
two at the school.  The auction say 1973, which is probably right.
>> <snip>
>> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/371439456530
>>
>> Not mine.
Trimmed the URL so it doesn't wrap.

Google translate text of description.  I'd love to see Bitsavers get a 
scan of the documents.

Another nit, I think the auction states no shipment to the US 
(translation leaves a bit to be desired).  Currently sitting @ 1 euro.  
Needs Repair.

Experience the EDP the early period and even punch cards punching

Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type 
8010 available.
This card-punch came in 1973 on the market and had very many features.

The device was made ??so quickly,  that it practiced by Locher inside 
could still mitstanzen in real time even at the fastest input.
<The device operated so quickly that it was able to keep up in real time 
with the fastest input> (my interpretation)

The optical condition <appearance>  of the device is very good, almost 
as good as new.

Technically, it is not functional. It needs to be fixed.

For auction includes a German manual and 2000 original punch card 
(uncut), so that for once can punch card repair (incl. Lettering). In 
addition, the Manual is one with all the detailed schematics and 
explanations.

Dimensions: H = 98cm, B = 119cm, T estimated = 68cm Weight: 80-100 kg.

Therefore only be collected in 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. Private sale 
of collection reducing without guarantee and no redemption. Similar 
offers will follow soon.

Thanks
Jim

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 13:41:59 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:41:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56004CEF.1020305@sydex.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net> <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net> <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com>
 <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca> <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com> <904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net> <56004CEF.1020305@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211135150.19534@shell.lmi.net>

>> and, of course, as a third type, Exatron Stringy-Floppy computer
>> based, but NOT entirely usable.

The department chair at one of the colleges attempted to convert an entire 
TRS80 based student computer lab over to stringy floppy.
He was the same one who later had a lab full of TRS80 model 3s converted 
into model 4s at a slightly higher price per unit than buying model 4s. 
Nodel 3s were still quite in demand in that lab, and the student 
technicians were quite capable of adding memory and disk drives.  The same 
expenditure could have resulted in almost twice as many usable machines, 
plus a few 3s waiting for funding for RAM and drives.
Later, he thought that it would be cool to have all of the 5150 PCs on 
their sides, ("to look more professional"), with the switch on the 
underside.
And, of course, although it meant far fewer machines, all of the AT 
machines used for teaching spreadsheets, word processing, and beginning 
programming HAD TO have color monitors.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Sep 21 13:49:00 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:49:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <044501d0f0cd$912ad650$b38082f0$@gmail.com>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> [...] a first encounter with the notion, at least for me, involved
> FORTRAN, not any language.  [...]

I've always thought of FORTRAN as a language, so I am clearly missing
something here.  What?

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 13:57:17 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 11:57:17 -0700
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in
In-Reply-To: <004701d0f496$4c9e9f40$e5dbddc0$@gmail.com>
References: <004701d0f496$4c9e9f40$e5dbddc0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F99E07-C327-4A8B-B2F0-43C12062274A@nf6x.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 10:52 , Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Wow. Thanks for sharing. What a beautiful looking machine. I hope one of us
> gets it.

It looks like it is in pristine condition!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Sep 21 14:02:49 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:02:49 +0100
Subject: Overlay - one answer
Message-ID: <56005459.5080209@btinternet.com>


And we have a winner of the overlay competition .....

 From the CBASIC manual

The CHAINstatement can load two types of programs:
       an overlay program generated by the linker,
       or a directly executable file.

As I used CBASIC this must be where I got it from

Rod Smallwood




















-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 14:02:59 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:02:59 -0400
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <56004E59.407@jwsss.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
 <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com> <56004E59.407@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <93E64DD8-E7E8-46E9-AC10-13D80BF09781@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 2:37 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/21/2015 10:14 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice.
> I used 029's in 1971, and they had been around for at least a year or two at the school.  The auction say 1973, which is probably right.
>>> <snip>
>>> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:
>>> 
>>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/371439456530
>>> 
>>> Not mine.
> Trimmed the URL so it doesn't wrap.
> 
> Google translate text of description.

Let me try a manual translation, because as usual machine translation leaves a bit to be desired.

> 
> Another nit, I think the auction states no shipment to the US (translation leaves a bit to be desired).  Currently sitting @ 1 euro.  Needs Repair.

The statement on the tab "shipping and payment methods" is: "The seller has not stated a method for shipment to the USA.  Contact the sender and ask for information on shipment to your location."  But in the item description it says "pickup only because it's heavy".

The description reads:

Experience the beginnings of EDT and punch your own punched cards.

Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type 8010 offered for sale.

This keypunch was introduced in 1973 and has very many features.  The device was made with such high operating speed that it could punch in real time even with the fastest data entry by experienced keypunch operators.  The appearance of the device is very good, almost as new.

The device is not operational, it requires repair.

The sale includes a manual in German and 2000 original (unpunched) cards, so that after repair you can immediately punch cards (including printing).  The manual includes all related schematics and details.

Dimensions: height = 98cm, width = 119cm, depth = 68cm Weight estimated: 80-100 kg.  Therefore only be picked up in [postal code] 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. 

Private sale to shrink collection without guarantee and no returns. Similar offers will follow soon.

	paul

> 
> Experience the EDP the early period and even punch cards punching
> 
> Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type 8010 available.
> This card-punch came in 1973 on the market and had very many features.
> 
> The device was made ??so quickly,  that it practiced by Locher inside could still mitstanzen in real time even at the fastest input.
> <The device operated so quickly that it was able to keep up in real time with the fastest input> (my interpretation)
> 
> The optical condition <appearance>  of the device is very good, almost as good as new.
> 
> Technically, it is not functional. It needs to be fixed.
> 
> For auction includes a German manual and 2000 original punch card (uncut), so that for once can punch card repair (incl. Lettering). In addition, the Manual is one with all the detailed schematics and explanations.
> 
> Dimensions: H = 98cm, B = 119cm, T estimated = 68cm Weight: 80-100 kg.
> 
> Therefore only be collected in 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. Private sale of collection reducing without guarantee and no redemption. Similar offers will follow soon.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 14:08:42 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:08:42 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FA32C4.6060307@telegraphics.com.au> <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 11:49 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> [...] a first encounter with the notion, at least for me, involved
>> FORTRAN, not any language.  [...]
>
> I've always thought of FORTRAN as a language, so I am clearly
> missing something here.  What?

Probably a misspeak.   But FORTRAN is more than simply a language--it's 
a way of life.  :)

The gist was that the notion of an overlay tree was first brought to my 
notice with FORTRAN.  It could be that it had been presented in earlier 
documents as such and evaded my notice., It did take the form of a set 
of subroutine calls, and was not an element of standard FORTRAN.

As mentioned, COBOL had a similar scheme that was embedded in the 
language itself.

--Chuck





From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 14:14:03 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:14:03 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
Message-ID: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>

Recently, there have been a number of references to using
overlays on the PDP-11.  There have also been strong suggestions
that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating
systems:  RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11.

Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but
for those readers who don't:

ROOT
- contains overlay code subroutines and data tables
- data used by more than one overlay

FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay

SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay

THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay

FREE  MEMORY

Any overlay could be called from any location.  About the only
requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the
code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory
when the code returned from the overlay.  In practice, the usual
protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called
from a lower region or the root.

I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex.
Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the
details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet?

Jerome Fine

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 14:18:20 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FA3555.40008@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>

>>> [...] a first encounter with the notion, at least for me, involved
>>> FORTRAN, not any language.  [...]
>> I've always thought of FORTRAN as a language, so I am clearly
>> missing something here.  What?
> Probably a misspeak.   But FORTRAN is more than simply a language--it's a way 
> of life.  :)

A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language.

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 14:28:56 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:28:56 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 12:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language.

Conversely, several languages were initially written in FORTRAN--it was 
among the most portable in the early days.   Remember those programs 
that started out with a statement something like this?


C      FIRST, GET THE CHARACTER SET

        DIMENSION IALPHA(80)

        READ 100,IALPHA
100    FORMAT (80A1)

Not everyone spoke USASCII or EBCDIC back in the day--and character 
constants weren't part of most FORTRANs.

--Chuck

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 14:41:48 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:41:48 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:14 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> Recently, there have been a number of references to using
> overlays on the PDP-11.  There have also been strong suggestions
> that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating
> systems:  RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11.
> 
> Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but
> for those readers who don't:
> 
> ROOT
> - contains overlay code subroutines and data tables
> - data used by more than one overlay
> 
> FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
> 
> SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
> 
> THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
> 
> FREE  MEMORY
> 
> Any overlay could be called from any location.  About the only
> requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the
> code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory
> when the code returned from the overlay.  In practice, the usual
> protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called
> from a lower region or the root.
> 
> I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex.
> Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the
> details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet?

RSTS has no specific structure of its own.  It provided both RT-11 and RSX emulation, and as a result would offer the structures from both of those, depending on which environment you chose for a particular application.

RSX uses a tree structure.  For details (lots of details) see the TKB manual.

Suppose you have main which calls o1.  o1 calls o2 which calls o3, and o1 also calls o5 which calls o6.  

In the RSX case, you could specify a tree with two branches: main to o1 and from there o2 to o3, and o5 to o6.  In the RT11 case, you might put o1 in region 1, o2 and o5 in region 2, and o3 and o6 in region 3.

The memory requirements would be:

	rt11: main + o1 + max (o2, o5) + max (o3, o6)
	rsx:  main + o1 + max (o2 + o3, o5 + o6)

If o2 and o6 are large while o3 and o5 are small, then the RSX case gives you a smaller memory footprint.

	paul


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 14:49:11 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:49:11 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560030B8.60700@update.uu.se>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
 <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>
 <560030B8.60700@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56005F37.7050701@compsys.to>

 >Johnny Billquist wrote:

> >On 2015-09-21 17:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> And it would certainly be possible to write a driver that can handle 
>> both controllers; it would start by determining which controller it's 
>> dealing with, and then run the one or the other set of algorithms.  
>> Since a boot block is just a small driver, the same is true there, so 
>> long as the whole body of code fits in the available space.  I 
>> suspect in this case that's doable; most bootloaders (other than MSCP 
>> ones) require only a small fraction of the available space. 
>
> You are absolutely right.
> And I don't know the actual size of the boot blocks. It might very 
> well be that they both fits in the same boot block, which would be nice.
> I know that the M9312 have separate boot roms for the RX11 and the 
> RX211, but those boot roms are pretty tiny...
>
> And I don't know if the RX211 boot rom also deals with RX01 floppies, 
> but I would assume it does. 

I don't know how RSX-11 and RSTS/E manage their device
drivers and allocate the memory for that code.  BUT, under
RT-11, each device driver uses memory which the user program
can't use.  Plus in almost every case, the RX01 controller and
drive are never present when the RX02 controller and drive are
present.  The reason is probably that the RX02 drive can read
and write RX01 floppies, so why bother.

I would guess that both an RX01 and an RX02 could be
present in the Qbus (and likely in the Unibus) at the same
time, but the CSR and VECTOR would then have to be
set to different values - whereas normally when only one
or the other is present, the same CSR and VECTOR
address is assigned.  Also, the CSR of both controllers
has the same bit, but in one controller it is 0 and the
other controller it is 1 - at least as far as I can remember.

That said, a device driver which is able to handle both
an RX01 and RX02 would require both sets of the code
which is very different along with the additional code to
determine which hardware is actually being used.  So
for RT-11, it seems reasonable that DEC kept the
DX(X).SYS device drivers to be used only for the
RX01 drive and the DY(X).SYS device drivers to be
used only for the RX02 drive.  There was one sort of
exception when the installation code was produced.
Each device, DX or DY, driver checks to make sure
that the CSR being tested is for the device which
would be installed.  The installation code for both DX
and DY are executed if the CSR is present when the
system is booted and the device driver which passes
the test is installed.

Finally, while the boot code could certainly support both
the RX01 and the RX02 drive, there would be no point
since the code in the device driver supports only one
drive.

Under RSX-11 where the memory is used somewhat
differently, I presume that the device drive could have
supported both the RX01 drive and the RX02 drive.
But I would need Johnny to comment on that possibility.

Jerome Fine

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 15:02:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:02:42 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201727090.17375@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF6392.7070909@sydex.com> <55FF729C.1020705@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <55FF759B.5000201@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D53B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FF98C3.2060103@sydex.com>,<904D02E38279462B90797D33B2A9A82A@310e2>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54FE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211114520.19534@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5632@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> and, of course, as a third type, Exatron Stringy-Floppy
> computer based, but NOT entirely usable.

Along with its inferior friend the Sinclair Microdrive
which was entirely NOT useable.

-tony




From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 15:22:56 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:22:56 -0500
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56006720.7010303@charter.net>

On 9/21/2015 11:34 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.
> 
> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
> 
> 	paul
> 

Acch.  Bad memory cells.  This actually was discussed back in 2002.
Some of the correspondents in that discussion are also denizens of this
mailing list, may recall I made the same mistake back then:

The diagnostic was/is:

BL-FN7AP-MC CZFNAP0 M-11 FORMTR RX50

So, just to verify, I fired up my 11/23 (which hasn't been on in YEARS),
which came right up, and inserted the floppy and booted it:

It formats:

RD51, RD52, RD53 on an RQDX1 or RQDX2
RD51, RD52, RD53, RD54, RD31, RD32, RX33 on an RQDDX2

Sorry for the confusion.

JRJ





From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 15:27:16 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:27:16 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56005F37.7050701@compsys.to>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
 <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>
 <560030B8.60700@update.uu.se> <56005F37.7050701@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <72ECDAFF-4648-4317-8413-30D566C82939@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> >Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
>> >On 2015-09-21 17:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> And it would certainly be possible to write a driver that can handle both controllers; it would start by determining which controller it's dealing with, and then run the one or the other set of algorithms.  Since a boot block is just a small driver, the same is true there, so long as the whole body of code fits in the available space.  I suspect in this case that's doable; most bootloaders (other than MSCP ones) require only a small fraction of the available space. 
>> 
>> You are absolutely right.
>> And I don't know the actual size of the boot blocks. It might very well be that they both fits in the same boot block, which would be nice.
>> I know that the M9312 have separate boot roms for the RX11 and the RX211, but those boot roms are pretty tiny...
>> 
>> And I don't know if the RX211 boot rom also deals with RX01 floppies, but I would assume it does. 
> 
> I don't know how RSX-11 and RSTS/E manage their device
> drivers and allocate the memory for that code.  BUT, under
> RT-11, each device driver uses memory which the user program
> can't use. ...
> Finally, while the boot code could certainly support both
> the RX01 and the RX02 drive, there would be no point
> since the code in the device driver supports only one
> drive.

RSTS isn't as frugal with memory as RT11 is.  It has a bit of per-unit memory whether the device is present or not.  But the kernel can be built with all sorts of device drivers for devices that aren't actually present.  If so, those are disabled at boot.

So for RSTS, it certainly makes sense to have a multi-lingual boot block, if you're dealing with a medium that can be installed into several types of drives with different controllers.

The RX01/RX02 case doesn't occur for RSTS since those aren't supported as boot devices.  But the analogous scenario does apply to magtape.  The RSTS magtape boot block works with every PDP-11 controller capable of supporting that tape, so 1600 BPI tapes can boot on TU16, TS80 (gag) and TMSCP controllers.  Yes, that's a fun bit of code.

	paul



From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 15:32:36 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:32:36 -0500
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56006720.7010303@charter.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
 <56006720.7010303@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56006964.4010307@charter.net>

RD51, RD52, RD53, RD54, RD31, RD32, RX33 on an *** RQDX3 **

(There should be a "Fat Finger Day"  ;) ).

JRJ

On 9/21/2015 3:22 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> On 9/21/2015 11:34 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.
>>
>> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
>>
>> 	paul
>>
> 
> Acch.  Bad memory cells.  This actually was discussed back in 2002.
> Some of the correspondents in that discussion are also denizens of this
> mailing list, may recall I made the same mistake back then:
> 
> The diagnostic was/is:
> 
> BL-FN7AP-MC CZFNAP0 M-11 FORMTR RX50
> 
> So, just to verify, I fired up my 11/23 (which hasn't been on in YEARS),
> which came right up, and inserted the floppy and booted it:
> 
> It formats:
> 
> RD51, RD52, RD53 on an RQDX1 or RQDX2
> RD51, RD52, RD53, RD54, RD31, RD32, RX33 on an RQDDX2
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> JRJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 21 15:32:58 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:32:58 +0200
Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany
In-Reply-To: <56004E59.407@jwsss.com>
References: <CABr82SJD73sXhHDEdZRXxcuAx_ZWGRVegWfbzuAtV2SRtybMzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E5F1@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
 <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com> <56004E59.407@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS42359F1616205CD216ED8186460@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: jwsmobile
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 8:37 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany

On 9/21/2015 10:14 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice.
I used 029's in 1971, and they had been around for at least a year or
two at the school.  The auction say 1973, which is probably right.
>> <snip>
>> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/371439456530
>>
>> Not mine.
Trimmed the URL so it doesn't wrap.

Google translate text of description.  I'd love to see Bitsavers get a
scan of the documents.

Another nit, I think the auction states no shipment to the US
(translation leaves a bit to be desired).  Currently sitting @ 1 euro.
Needs Repair.

Experience the EDP the early period and even punch cards punching

Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type
8010 available.
This card-punch came in 1973 on the market and had very many features.

The device was made ??so quickly,  that it practiced by Locher inside
could still mitstanzen in real time even at the fastest input.
<The device operated so quickly that it was able to keep up in real time
with the fastest input> (my interpretation)

The optical condition <appearance>  of the device is very good, almost
as good as new.

Technically, it is not functional. It needs to be fixed.

For auction includes a German manual and 2000 original punch card
(uncut), so that for once can punch card repair (incl. Lettering). In
addition, the Manual is one with all the detailed schematics and
explanations.

Dimensions: H = 98cm, B = 119cm, T estimated = 68cm Weight: 80-100 kg.

Therefore only be collected in 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. Private sale
of collection reducing without guarantee and no redemption. Similar
offers will follow soon.

Thanks
Jim

======

I can give a better translation than Google does, but there are German
guys on this list who can do that too. It is pick up only near Frankfurt.
I am not prepared to pay too much (it is not DEC ...) but will give it
a try. Home to Frankfurt is some 400 km drive one-way.
The trip (+ truck rental) will already cost a nice penny though.

I do have a DEC card reader, so it would be nice if I can create
punched cards for the reader ... but not at any cost!

- Henk 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 15:37:48 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:37:48 +0100
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis
> Sent: 21 September 2015 20:29
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
> 
> On 09/21/2015 12:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
> > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language.
> 
> Conversely, several languages were initially written in FORTRAN--it was
> among the most portable in the early days.   Remember those programs
> that started out with a statement something like this?
> 
> 
> C      FIRST, GET THE CHARACTER SET
> 
>         DIMENSION IALPHA(80)
> 
>         READ 100,IALPHA
> 100    FORMAT (80A1)
> 
> Not everyone spoke USASCII or EBCDIC back in the day--and character
> constants weren't part of most FORTRANs.
> 
> --Chuck

I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific routines
to allow the Fortran code to wait for a packet to arrive.
There was also a huge vector of strings with matching integer arrays that
allowed them to be chained together, and to have types allocated to them
There were also a large number of "INCLUDE" files with a parameters which
defined the structure of data stored in the character vectors....

Dave



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 16:16:08 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:16:08 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>

 >Paul Koning wrote:

>>>On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:14 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>
>>Recently, there have been a number of references to using
>>overlays on the PDP-11.  There have also been strong suggestions
>>that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating
>>systems:  RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11.
>>
>>Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but
>>for those readers who don't:
>>
>>ROOT
>>- contains overlay code subroutines and data tables
>>- data used by more than one overlay
>>
>>FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>>SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>>THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>- one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>>FREE  MEMORY
>>
>>Any overlay could be called from any location.  About the only
>>requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the
>>code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory
>>when the code returned from the overlay.  In practice, the usual
>>protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called
>>from a lower region or the root.
>>
>>I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex.
>>Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the
>>details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet?
>>    
>>
>
>RSTS has no specific structure of its own.  It provided both RT-11 and RSX emulation, and as a result would offer the structures from both of those, depending on which environment you chose for a particular application.
>
>RSX uses a tree structure.  For details (lots of details) see the TKB manual.
>
>Suppose you have main which calls o1.  o1 calls o2 which calls o3, and o1 also calls o5 which calls o6.  
>
>In the RSX case, you could specify a tree with two branches: main to o1 and from there o2 to o3, and o5 to o6.  In the RT11 case, you might put o1 in region 1, o2 and o5 in region 2, and o3 and o6 in region 3.
>
>The memory requirements would be:
>
>	rt11: main + o1 + max (o2, o5) + max (o3, o6)
>	rsx:  main + o1 + max (o2 + o3, o5 + o6)
>
>If o2 and o6 are large while o3 and o5 are small, then the RSX case gives you a smaller memory footprint.
>
In RT-11, you can also put o5 in region three and o6 in region two
and still have o5 call o6.  If TKB does not allow that, then it is
more restrictive in some ways than RT-11.  So the memory
requirements would be:

            RT-11:  main + max (o2, o6) + max (o3, o5)

This is probably better than the RT-11 memory requirement which
you suggested, but likely not as good as the RSX-11 memory
requirement.

Also, my example is rarely that simple in actual practice.

Another important aspect is that RT-11 has a few extra instructions
in the overlay handler which determines if the overlay is already in
memory.  The linker assigns an overlay number to each overlay and
places that value (actually *6) in the first word of each overlay as a
data value that the user program does not see.  When the overlay
handler is invoked and the address to be used for the .ReadF request
is found, the overlay handler checks to determine if that value *6 is
still in the first word.  If so, the overlay handler can assume that the
overlay is still in memory and the call can jump to the normal entry
address for that subroutine call without the overhead of reading the
overlay  NOTE that this check depends on a region which has
the same starting address for all overlays within the region and
no overlap between regions.  This allows for that extra word
which the user code is unaware of and never accesses.

In MACRO-11 which executes under RT-11, I modified the
overlay handler to keep track of how many times the overlay
was called and how may times it needed to be read.  99% of the
time, the overlay was already in memory and the code was ready
to be executed.  The number of calls can be so large that a 32-bit
entry was required to track the number of calls.  It was very easy
to add the additional code since the instructions to test for the
overlay being present were already there along with an extra
register (having already been saved) that pointed to the 32-bit
entry that kept track of the number of calls as well as the number
of times that the overlay needed to be read.

My question is if TKB overlays also have these extra instructions?
For example, if there are three trees with only two trees having a
second overlay, does the overlay handler know if the second overlay
for a different tree is still there?  It seems doubtful since a data value
could, by chance, have the same value that was being checked.

So each overlay handler has advantages and disadvantages.
I wonder if in RSX-11 the MACRO-11 assembler takes longer
than in RT-11 when it needs to always read in the overlay?

Jerome Fine

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Sep 21 16:24:20 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:24:20 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>

Well,

In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller
did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to everyone
for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested you
can check out some quick pictures here:

http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html

The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it cleaned
up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120.

-Ali


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 16:26:12 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:26:12 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <56006720.7010303@charter.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
 <56006720.7010303@charter.net>
Message-ID: <560075F4.3020305@compsys.to>

 >Jay Jaeger wrote:

>>On 9/21/2015 11:34 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.
>>
>>I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
>>
>Acch.  Bad memory cells.  This actually was discussed back in 2002.
>Some of the correspondents in that discussion are also denizens of this
>mailing list, may recall I made the same mistake back then:
>
>The diagnostic was/is:
>
>BL-FN7AP-MC CZFNAP0 M-11 FORMTR RX50
>
>So, just to verify, I fired up my 11/23 (which hasn't been on in YEARS),
>which came right up, and inserted the floppy and booted it:
>
>It formats:
>
>RD51, RD52, RD53 on an RQDX1 or RQDX2
>RD51, RD52, RD53, RD54, RD31, RD32, RX33 on an RQDDX2
>
>Sorry for the confusion.
>
>JRJ
>
Then you have answered the question!!

But it there may be some possible confusion.  If I remember
correctly, the RQDX3 was used with the RD54 and RX33
and the RQDX2 or RQDX3 was used with the RD53.

I could be wrong, but that is what I seem to remember.

So on a PDP-11 Qbus system, it is not possible to FORMAT the
RX50 which uses an RQDX1, RQDX2 or an RQDX3.

BUT, how is it possible to FORMAT the 5 1/4" RX33  HD floppy
which uses an RQDX3 controller?

If it can be dome with the RX33, why not with the RX50?

Jerome Fine

From jgevaryahu at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 14:14:42 2015
From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:14:42 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
Message-ID: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>

Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210 
somewhere which they could dump the ROMs from?

Notes:
The LA36 uses several proms for its discrete cpu, and 2 character set 
roms which I believe have an 'odd' pinout.

The LA120, one of the roms on the '2 rom version' is an 8k 2364 24 pin 
chip which is a bit annoying to dump, since you either need a 2364->2764 
24->28 pin adapter, or (better) a programmer which can dump MC68764 or 
MC68766 24-pin 8k eproms (which have the same pinout as 2364). The other 
rom on the 2 rom version is a 2k 2316 24 pin chip.
The oldest LA120 version uses 5 roms, all 2k 2316s. The code on the 
5-rom version and the 2-rom version may very well be the same (the first 
4 2k chips consolidated to one 8k chip), I'm not sure. Would be nice to 
get dumps of both versions.
The LAS12 uses different code from the LA120 and to the best of my 
knowledge all LAS12s use 2 roms, one 8k and one 2k.

LA34, theres at LEAST five firmware versions, almost certainly six, and 
possibly as many as seven. There is also a special firmware for a 'rom 
expansion' daughterboard.
The 1978 LA34 "54-13374" motherboard has a bizarre Intel i8355 mask 
rom+io chip in it, plus a separate rom as well. (there are at least two 
versions of said i8355+rom firmware). Dumping the i8355 is not for the 
faint of heart, it would likely be easier to insert a 'dumping program' 
eprom into the single rom's socket, and use the LA34's cpu to spit its 
own rom contents out via serial.
The 1980 LA34 "54-13747" motherboard lacks the i8355 and uses 2 or 3 
mask roms or eproms on it instead (and 74xx logic for the i/o). There 
are at least three rom revisions for this, possibly four or five.

LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's definitely at least one rom 
revision. Also to the best of my knowledge neither the maintenance print 
set nor the technical manual for the LA100 are scanned (they certainly 
don't appear at 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/ ), which 
makes it difficult to know.

-- 
Jonathan Gevaryahu
jgevaryahu at gmail.com
jgevaryahu at hotmail.com


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 14:19:22 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:19:22 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucpzPLdOYvMr1x_BwV0PJ9QuMqNwt8K4P4yb8fEV9KrLQ@mail.gmail.com>

What are you going to do with these?  Is there a ROM archive for DEC
printer ROMs?

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu <jgevaryahu at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210 somewhere
> which they could dump the ROMs from?
>
> Notes:
> The LA36 uses several proms for its discrete cpu, and 2 character set roms
> which I believe have an 'odd' pinout.
>
> The LA120, one of the roms on the '2 rom version' is an 8k 2364 24 pin
> chip which is a bit annoying to dump, since you either need a 2364->2764
> 24->28 pin adapter, or (better) a programmer which can dump MC68764 or
> MC68766 24-pin 8k eproms (which have the same pinout as 2364). The other
> rom on the 2 rom version is a 2k 2316 24 pin chip.
> The oldest LA120 version uses 5 roms, all 2k 2316s. The code on the 5-rom
> version and the 2-rom version may very well be the same (the first 4 2k
> chips consolidated to one 8k chip), I'm not sure. Would be nice to get
> dumps of both versions.
> The LAS12 uses different code from the LA120 and to the best of my
> knowledge all LAS12s use 2 roms, one 8k and one 2k.
>
> LA34, theres at LEAST five firmware versions, almost certainly six, and
> possibly as many as seven. There is also a special firmware for a 'rom
> expansion' daughterboard.
> The 1978 LA34 "54-13374" motherboard has a bizarre Intel i8355 mask rom+io
> chip in it, plus a separate rom as well. (there are at least two versions
> of said i8355+rom firmware). Dumping the i8355 is not for the faint of
> heart, it would likely be easier to insert a 'dumping program' eprom into
> the single rom's socket, and use the LA34's cpu to spit its own rom
> contents out via serial.
> The 1980 LA34 "54-13747" motherboard lacks the i8355 and uses 2 or 3 mask
> roms or eproms on it instead (and 74xx logic for the i/o). There are at
> least three rom revisions for this, possibly four or five.
>
> LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's definitely at least one rom
> revision. Also to the best of my knowledge neither the maintenance print
> set nor the technical manual for the LA100 are scanned (they certainly
> don't appear at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/
> ), which makes it difficult to know.
>
> --
> Jonathan Gevaryahu
> jgevaryahu at gmail.com
> jgevaryahu at hotmail.com
>
>


-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 14:35:21 2015
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:35:21 +0200
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
you have a very nice lot of DG stuff, indeed!

I have a Nova 3 sitting on the garage, waiting for proper repair.
However it's missing all the front panel switch levers,
so I would need to rebuild them, not having had the luck of finding some at
reasonable price.
I have some picture of the original Nova 3 levers, however I didn't manged
to
have the exact size to fit an obtained plastic model very well.

Would you mind to take one cover apart, and put it on a flat-bed scanner
together with a clear ruler (in the same picture), so I can measure from
the image
the exact sizes?
The profile is not the same, but I can obtain it from the camera pictures I
already have,
using your images as size reference for rescaling.

Thanks
Andrea

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 21 15:21:14 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:21:14 -0500
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801d0f4ab$10b6e130$3224a390$@classiccmp.org>

Shadoo wrote....
----
However it's missing all the front panel switch levers, so I would need to rebuild them, not having had the luck of finding some at reasonable price.
----
As a safety net, I was going to send one to another listmember that has a 3d scanner/printer and see if they can reproduce. Won't match from a color perspective, but maybe from a functional one.

J



From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 15:31:10 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:31:10 -0500
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucpzPLdOYvMr1x_BwV0PJ9QuMqNwt8K4P4yb8fEV9KrLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucpzPLdOYvMr1x_BwV0PJ9QuMqNwt8K4P4yb8fEV9KrLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5600690E.4070608@charter.net>

On 9/21/2015 2:19 PM, william degnan wrote:
> What are you going to do with these?  Is there a ROM archive for DEC
> printer ROMs?
> 

Well, I expect bitsavers would happily host them in .../bits ;)

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 15:38:05 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:38:05 -0700
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <000801d0f4ab$10b6e130$3224a390$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d0f4ab$10b6e130$3224a390$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5AE305CB-4199-4D13-86F9-A5B8F309CFF5@nf6x.net>

I have a Nova 3. Maybe if I can find the time, I can sit down with a caliper and a CAD program, and create a solid model of a switch lever? Then I could put it up for sale at ShapeWays for convenience, as well as sharing the model in a GitHub repository.

Also, that heap of DG stuff in the pictures looks really lovely!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Sep 21 15:46:40 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:46:40 -0500
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56006CB0.1030509@charter.net>

Well, I have (what I think is) an entire Nova 3, also sitting in a
garage (mine, of course), that we could discuss.  Where are you located?

(Mine is in Madison,  WI  USA)

JRJ

On 9/21/2015 2:35 PM, shadoooo wrote:
> Hello,
> you have a very nice lot of DG stuff, indeed!
> 
> I have a Nova 3 sitting on the garage, waiting for proper repair.
> However it's missing all the front panel switch levers,
> so I would need to rebuild them, not having had the luck of finding some at
> reasonable price.
> I have some picture of the original Nova 3 levers, however I didn't manged
> to
> have the exact size to fit an obtained plastic model very well.
> 
> Would you mind to take one cover apart, and put it on a flat-bed scanner
> together with a clear ruler (in the same picture), so I can measure from
> the image
> the exact sizes?
> The profile is not the same, but I can obtain it from the camera pictures I
> already have,
> using your images as size reference for rescaling.
> 
> Thanks
> Andrea
> 

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 21 15:45:01 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:45:01 -0500
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <5AE305CB-4199-4D13-86F9-A5B8F309CFF5@nf6x.net>
References: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d0f4ab$10b6e130$3224a390$@classiccmp.org>
 <5AE305CB-4199-4D13-86F9-A5B8F309CFF5@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <000901d0f4ae$63863110$2a929330$@classiccmp.org>

Mark wrote...
----
Also, that heap of DG stuff in the pictures looks really lovely!
----
Thank you... Those pictures don't even show a quarter of the DG gear
floating around here.

But honestly-unfortunately, it's simply WAY too much. Soon as I get one or
two good working Eclipses and one or two good working Nova 800/1200/2's,
each in a rack with a compliment of peripherals.... the rest is available
for trade and such. I need the space badly, and the DG gear accounts for a
very substantial amount of floorspace here.

I do know that at the top of my want-list is a couple multi-async boards ;)
And I just came across two *cases* of core boards that will likely be
available at some point...

J



From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 16:17:43 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:17:43 -0700
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <000901d0f4ae$63863110$2a929330$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAM4zSsUWAi=TXbr8E48py90hT11udgkuffL-OxpiCRvqA_VnTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d0f4ab$10b6e130$3224a390$@classiccmp.org>
 <5AE305CB-4199-4D13-86F9-A5B8F309CFF5@nf6x.net>
 <000901d0f4ae$63863110$2a929330$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <EC9DF60D-3704-492F-8C68-3186E40E628A@nf6x.net>

My own DG rack is taking up a lot of space in a very tiny room, but it came along with a nice little PDP-11/03 in a short rack that I wanted. I bought them from the stepson of their original owner (who passed away in 2008 if I recall correctly), and they came with a cool story. So even though I don't have any prior history with DG gear, this rack won my heart:

http://www.nf6x.net/2014/03/data-general-nova-3-and-dec-pdp-11v03-l/


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From abs at absd.org  Mon Sep 21 16:32:48 2015
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:32:48 +0100
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYSQ3KPUv3NSETuHFAS5aMqGQP-E72kErFrKiaBRgRn0w@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 September 2015 at 01:55, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would guess it would
>>> be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on greatly
>>> differing OS's like Linux AND Windows.  No telling what would happen if one
>>> of these disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and then the
>>> drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux.
>>> Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is possible to create an executable file that identifies the OS that it
>> is running on and does a conditional jump to different code, assuming that
>> the processor uses the same instruction set.
>>
>> How different the OS's are would determine how much code could be shared.
>> If they are very different, then the executable file could be twice as
>> large, with no code in common.
>>
>>
>> It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk
>> formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in
>> different places.
>> One of the many projects that I never got ready for market was to make a
>> multi-platform distribution format for software.  "Save a few cents on media
>> costs by putting all of your platforms on one disk"  But, after August 1981,
>> it eventually became apparent that the need for such was not going to be
>> around much longer.
>>
>> If the boot code is short enough, it is even possible to have an FM, an
>> MFM, and a GCR boot sector in the same boot track, since each will not even
>> see any except its own.  Formatting/recording a track with mixed densities
>> and/or encodings and multiple sector sizes is not a supported function in
>> most operating systems, nor even FDCs, but can be done with some flux
>> transition controllers.
>
>
> I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
> with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
> for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
> on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot code
> under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
> CD to be bootable under Windows.
>
> Under RT-11, the first six hard disk blocks (0 to 5) are reserved for boot
> code (when that is present) and hard disk blocks from 6 up to 67 are used
> for an RT-11 directory.  RT-11 rarely uses that large a directory and the
> minimum directory is only two hard disk block long.  For the CD, that
> allowed an RT-11 directory from hard disk blocks 6 to 63 or up to
> sector 15.
>
> What may have been unique was that only the RT-11 directory and the
> CD  ISO directory were distinct.  Otherwise, all the files were the same
> with each directory pointing to the same location on the ISO image.
>
> In practice, the same CD could be used as a data CD under Windows
> in addition to being a boot disk on a real DEC  RT-11 system which
> supported that operating system.  I was actually on the phone at one
> point when the first individual who received a copy of the CD used
> it to boot RT-11 on a CDROM drive configured to support 512 byte
> blocks using a CQD 220/TM host adapter.
>
> The same ISO image file can also be used under both SimH and Ersatz-11
> in the same manner, although it is STRONGLY recommended that the
> ATTACH or MOUNT command use the ISO image file as READ  ONLY.
> Ersatz-11 is also able to MOUNT the actual RAW CD on a CDROM
> SCSI drive and boot RT-11 from the CD.  Of course, the Windows
> operating system under which Ersatz-11 is also able to see all the same
> files on the CD as well, BUT  NOT  AT  THE  SAME  TIME - at
> least I never did attempt that possibility.
>
> If this can be done with Windows and RT-11 which have completely
> different file structures and instructions sets, it certainly seems likely
> that other operating systems and system hardware can also be supported.
> The one thing that seemed reasonable from a security point of view is
> that the CD is READ  ONLY, so no virus can be introduced on the
> CD after it is burned.
>
> Tim Shoppa did almost the same thing with his RT-11  Freeware CD
> when an RT-11 directory was added at the end of the ISO image file
> for the CD.
>
> If anyone finds this interesting and has additional questions, please ask.

Before the price of media and storage dropped so much NetBSD install
ISOs were multiboot - one image which booted on alpha, i386, pmax, and
sparc (and I think theoretically also macppc, vax and sun2, sun3 and
sun3x if it hadn't run out of room for the install files :)
http://www.netbsd.org/docs/bootcd.html#multiimage

So much cool stuff no-one bothers with now days...

David

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 16:33:35 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:33:35 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
Message-ID: <D1903877-B1B8-4C79-81C5-3584B2093AE1@nf6x.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 14:24 , Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> 
> Well,
> 
> In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller
> did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to everyone
> for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested you
> can check out some quick pictures here:
> 
> http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html
> 
> The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it cleaned
> up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120.

Thanks for sharing the pictures, and I'm glad that the freighting worked out! Freight shipment is a bit weird at first, until you get used to it.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 16:33:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:33:53 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 01:37 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific
> routines to allow the Fortran code to wait for a packet to arrive.
> There was also a huge vector of strings with matching integer arrays
> that allowed them to be chained together, and to have types allocated
> to them There were also a large number of "INCLUDE" files with a
> parameters which defined the structure of data stored in the
> character vectors....


PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Sep 21 16:54:50 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:54:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
Message-ID: <20150921215450.A332518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jay West

    > A couple items in my holdings have rust ... The only good solution I
    > could see is having the existing metalwork sandblasted and then
    > repainted. I've not checked, but I suspect that's "non-trivial-$".
    > Thoughts?

Iff you have access to an air compressor, small sandblast units can be had at
Harbour Freight for less than $50. If you don't have a compressor... well,
that's considerably more money, but I find a compressor is a very useful
thing to have.

I feed our sandblast unit (one of the HF ones) with playground sand, a couple
of $ per bag, which I feed through a sieve made of 4 pieces of scrap wood
(frame) and some plastic door/window screen. (If you don't sieve it, the
cheapo play sand has larger bits in it which tend to jam the nozzle.) And the
sieve allows me to be _really_ cheap and sweep up the sand and recycle it.

I refinished an H960 which I got which was in pretty nasty condition (very
severe rust on the bottom surface, some rust elsewhere, e.g. on the uprights)
using this rig, and some tins of spray paint (Rustoleum flat black), and it
came out looking brand spanking new. (My attempt to do the same with a BA11
ran into some shoals, I screwed up the spray-painting - definitely an art! :-)

Anyway, if you're up for doing it yourself, it's a useful capability to have
in-house.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 16:58:17 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:58:17 -0400
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 09/21/2015 01:37 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> 
>> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific
>> routines to allow the Fortran code to wait for a packet to arrive.
>> There was also a huge vector of strings with matching integer arrays
>> that allowed them to be chained together, and to have types allocated
>> to them There were also a large number of "INCLUDE" files with a
>> parameters which defined the structure of data stored in the
>> character vectors....
> 
> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.

Really?  I find it hard to imagine that Wirth would use Fortran for a compiler.  Never mind his background in structured languages -- writing a compiler in Fortran is just much harder.  Not as hard as writing one in COBOL, but still...

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 21 16:59:43 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:59:43 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
 <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <9E8E6498-7A61-4A3A-B0B8-D74C2898AD7A@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Another important aspect is that RT-11 has a few extra instructions
> in the overlay handler which determines if the overlay is already in
> memory. ...
> 
> My question is if TKB overlays also have these extra instructions?

Yes, it also tracks if something is already resident.  I haven't looked into the details.  (The only overlay machinery I studied to any significant extent is the RT-11 one.)

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 17:48:26 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:48:26 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5600893A.6050209@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 02:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

>> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.
>
> Really?  I find it hard to imagine that Wirth would use Fortran for a
> compiler.  Never mind his background in structured languages --
> writing a compiler in Fortran is just much harder.  Not as hard as
> writing one in COBOL, but still...

Well, that was a wink-wink-nudge-nudge statement from yours truly. 
Wirth & Co. started the project in FORTRAN, but gave up, particularly 
when it was realized that implementing data structures and recursion in 
FORTRAN was going to be a bit of a task.  I think the result was 
bootstrapped.  I've got a copy of the ETH CDC compiler from 1976, 
bearing Urs Amann's name as the author.  It isn't exactly Pascal, either.

But if the issue really was data structures, maybe COBOL would have been 
a better choice.  I do recall that there was at least an Algol-60 
compiler on CDC iron at that time.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Sep 21 17:52:55 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 15:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net> <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211550070.19534@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.

But then, much later, . . .

Microsoft/IBM PC Pascal was written by Bob Wallace.

I have no idea WHO, but Microsoft/IBM PC FORTRAN was written in Microsoft 
Pascal.  There was an odd little warning not to use any 6 letter variable 
names ending in QQ.  A simple integer sieve of Erastothanes benchmark ram 
faster in MBASIC than the compiled output of Microsoft FORTRAN.



From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Mon Sep 21 17:54:09 2015
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:54:09 +0000
Subject: vintage datacenter furniture
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

This is sort-of off topic, but not entirely...
I've seen a fair amount of furniture like in the following picture:

http://dooki.com/supercomputers/ibm/ibm.s390g4.gif

It looks well-made, industrial, and vintage (sort of).  Anyone know who makes such things?

Did IBM have a go-to desk manufacturer for their stuff, or just whatever the customer provided?

Thanks!

-Ben

From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 18:21:47 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:21:47 -0500
Subject: vintage datacenter furniture
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEjx2iOGRjtHWxh2gbHEcBXR-D=_=Utjk+YppadjAJdtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Benjamin Huntsman
<BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu> wrote:
> This is sort-of off topic, but not entirely...
> I've seen a fair amount of furniture like in the following picture:
>
> http://dooki.com/supercomputers/ibm/ibm.s390g4.gif
>
> It looks well-made, industrial, and vintage (sort of).  Anyone know who makes such things?

Don't know if IBM used them, but Wright-Line was huge in datacenter
equipment, both furniture and storage.

DEC had some of their own (I have a catalog somewhere....) that
matched their corporate rack cabinets (brown/beige scheme.)

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Sep 21 18:26:15 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:26:15 -0700
Subject: vintage datacenter furniture
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <004c01d0f4c4$e98d66f0$bca834d0$@net>

> This is sort-of off topic, but not entirely...
> I've seen a fair amount of furniture like in the following picture:
> 
> http://dooki.com/supercomputers/ibm/ibm.s390g4.gif
> 
> It looks well-made, industrial, and vintage (sort of).  Anyone know who
> makes such things?
> 
> Did IBM have a go-to desk manufacturer for their stuff, or just
> whatever the customer provided?
> 
Ben,

Funny you should ask. I just made a minis post about it here:
http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html

The web page is very preliminary but should give you an idea....

-Ali


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 18:38:21 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:38:21 -0700
Subject: vintage datacenter furniture
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEjx2iOGRjtHWxh2gbHEcBXR-D=_=Utjk+YppadjAJdtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <CAEfH1SEjx2iOGRjtHWxh2gbHEcBXR-D=_=Utjk+YppadjAJdtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560094ED.8060600@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 04:21 PM, Jason T wrote:
>
> Don't know if IBM used them, but Wright-Line was huge in datacenter
> equipment, both furniture and storage.
>
> DEC had some of their own (I have a catalog somewhere....) that
> matched their corporate rack cabinets (brown/beige scheme.)


Acco was (and is) very big in data center/office computer furniture as 
well.  I use a couple of Acco workstations that I picked up used about 
25 years ago.  Welded beefy things (had no problem holding a Daisy 20" 
monitor).  Desk is on a chain and threaded-rod up-down adjustment; 
keyboard shelf is adjustable WRT angle and height.   I don't think that 
I could ever go back to using a plain old office desk again.

Fortunately, I don't have to.

--Chuck

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Sep 21 18:58:17 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:58:17 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56009999.8090402@bitsavers.org>

On 9/21/15 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.
>

Was there something before http://bitsavers.org/pdf/eth/pascal/ETH_Pascal_Listing_Nov72.pdf ?

looks like 6600 assembler to me




From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 19:00:22 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:00:22 -0500
Subject: vintage datacenter furniture
In-Reply-To: <560094ED.8060600@sydex.com>
References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A00D4DF@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <CAEfH1SEjx2iOGRjtHWxh2gbHEcBXR-D=_=Utjk+YppadjAJdtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560094ED.8060600@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEmJEEnSg02jx8jKQVps3dqu3GtT9Yj7igpK4Jr5ksfPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 6:38 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Acco was (and is) very big in data center/office computer furniture as well.
> I use a couple of Acco workstations that I picked up used about 25 years
> ago.  Welded beefy things (had no problem holding a Daisy 20" monitor).
> Desk is on a chain and threaded-rod up-down adjustment; keyboard shelf is
> adjustable WRT angle and height.   I don't think that I could ever go back
> to using a plain old office desk again.

Ah yeah, I've seen them around as well.  The threaded-rod is a
blessing to civilization.

Although not indicative of any trend, I'm going to share my
Bell/Teletype table because it's cool:

https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/Model45TeletypeTable?noredirect=1

I assume Teletype actually made it, but who knows.  I was told by the
seller that it was installed by Bell as part of a turnkey "phone room"
in a city building. complete with your own human attendant.

j

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 19:09:11 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:09:11 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <9E8E6498-7A61-4A3A-B0B8-D74C2898AD7A@comcast.net>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
 <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
 <9E8E6498-7A61-4A3A-B0B8-D74C2898AD7A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56009C27.2030108@compsys.to>

 >Paul Koning wrote:

>>On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>
>>...
>>Another important aspect is that RT-11 has a few extra instructions
>>in the overlay handler which determines if the overlay is already in
>>memory. ...
>>
>>My question is if TKB overlays also have these extra instructions?
>>
>Yes, it also tracks if something is already resident.  I haven't looked into the details.  (The only overlay machinery I studied to any significant extent is the RT-11 one.)
>
Is there any documentation as to the actual details?

As I mentioned, For the RT-11 overlay handler integrated with
the LINK program (both are essential), when those aspects
are combined with overlay regions defined by the maximum
size of the overlay in a given region, the first word of every
region is devoted to the overlay (*6) number.  Since that
location is not available to the overlay and is unique to the
overlay, the overlay handler can check to determine which
overlay is resident in the region.

With overlay trees in TKB, that method can't be used unless
the line up the tree is intact.  I am attempting to visualize the
code which could determine if that is true, but at the moment
it escapes me.  Can anyone provide any details?

Otherwise, I can see where the first overlay in any tree can
be determined, but unless a given tree is enforced, there does
not seem to be any way to check if overlays further up the tree
are also resident?

Is there a manual available on overlays using TKB that is
on the internet?

Jerome Fine

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 19:31:24 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:31:24 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>,
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5600A15C.1000208@compsys.to>

 >tony duell wrote:

>>If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on
>>the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be
>>
>It is. Remember the RX50 is just a drive, it does not include any of
>the controller electronics.
>
>>performed on a PDP-11?  There seems to be a number of possibilities:
>>
>>(a)  There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing
>>       on the PDP-11 systems
>>
>It's more the reverse!. The Rainbow just has a standard controller chip on the 
>processor bus (I forget which processor, I can look at the schematics if you
>want). The controller chip can do what is needed for a LLF, and there is
>nothing in the way to prevent software from sending the commands to do
>that.
>
Well that is a reverse explanation!  Completely opposite of
what I thought might be the actual situation.

>On the PDP11 there is a lot more stuff between the processor and the disk
>controller chip. Even the Pro 300 series has a microcontroller (8051?) on
>the floppy controller board. Therefore the processor you can program
>(PDP11) can't do arbitrary things to the disk controller chip, it is very likely
>that sending the right commands to do an LLF is one of the things you
>can't do.
>
HOWEVER, while the PDP-11 is still unable to perform an
LLF on an RX50 when an RQDX3 is present, it is possible
to perform an LLF on a floppy in an RX33.  Does that still
seem compatible with your explanation?

I would not attempt a trick question with you since I don't
know enough to set one up.  Again, I am just trying to
understand what DEC did and how DEC managed to
still avoid being able to perform an LLF on an RX50
using an RQDX3, yet supported an LLF right from
RT-11 on the RX33 using an RQDX3?

The one time I watched it being done, I nearly fell off
my chair in astonishment.  After all those decades using
the PDP-11, I was finally allowed to FORMAT a floppy
and it actually worked.  Of course, the floppy in question
was identical to a HD 5 1/4" PC floppy which any PC
at that time would also be able to FORMAT.  And in
any case, the floppies were usually sold with a FORMAT.
So all that would normally be needed would be the
INITIALIZE command.  But it would be nice to be
able to understand how the RQDX3 can FORMAT
an RX33, but not an RX50.  I also have an RX23
drive on a CQD 220/TM which I have never tried.
But since that is a non-DEC host adapter, I don't
think it counts,

Jerome Fine


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 19:37:27 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:37:27 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <56009999.8090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com> <56009999.8090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5600A2C7.5090206@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 04:58 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/21/15 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.
>>
>
> Was there something before
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/eth/pascal/ETH_Pascal_Listing_Nov72.pdf ?
>
> looks like 6600 assembler to me

It's COMPASS all right, but a quick scan through it shows that it's more 
likely a run-time package, rather than a compiler.  Most interesting is 
the brief PP profiling program at the end.

--Chuck

FWIW, at about the same time this was being written, SYMPL was being 
floated to the SCOPE 3.4 people.  I recall some discussion about SYMPL 
including some elements of the then-nascent Pascal.  To the best of my 
knowledge, it didn't happen.

One wonders if Wirth ever considered coding the compiler in SYMPL...




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Sep 21 19:41:22 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:41:22 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-21 5:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 09/21/2015 01:37 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>
>>> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific
>>> routines to allow the Fortran code to wait for a packet to arrive.
>>> There was also a huge vector of strings with matching integer arrays
>>> that allowed them to be chained together, and to have types allocated
>>> to them There were also a large number of "INCLUDE" files with a
>>> parameters which defined the structure of data stored in the
>>> character vectors....
>>
>> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.
>
> Really? I find it hard to imagine that Wirth would use Fortran for a
compiler. Never mind his background in structured languages -- writing a
compiler in Fortran is just much harder. Not as hard as writing one in
COBOL, but still...
>

Almost bearable in Ratfor/WATFOR/WATFIV though. Ref: "Elements of 
Programming Style."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfor

--Toby

> 	paul
>
>


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 19:53:41 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:53:41 -0600
Subject: Reading a masked ROM the hard way (was Re: Wanted: ROM images from HP
 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB disk drives)
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSFgfv1k9N+NxcuiYpGuJUr6oJZmX3WHSh_iCRL_NkTBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Someone was kind enough to mail me the masked ROM out of his HP 9895
floppy drive. I've read it and mailed it back. It's an MK36000 series
24-pin 8KB masked ROM, with the same pinout as the Motorola MC68764
EPROM, so reading it with an EPROM programmer set for the Motorola
part should work fine. In read mode, no programming voltage is
applied, so there should be no risk of damage to the part.
Unfortunately my Data I/O Unisite does too good a job trying to
protect devices against reverse or misaligned insertion or incorrect
device configuration; if it thinks the current drawn by the device is
too low or too high, it aborts with a device insertion error.  The
MK36000 draws significantly less current than the MCM68764.  I tried
putting an appropriately valued resistor in parallel, but still got
the error.

I ended up kludging the masked ROM to the expansion bus interface of a
TI Launchpad board with a Tiva TM4C1294 microcontroller (ARM Cortex-M4
based), using an SN74LVC245A buffer on the data bus because the Tiva
is not 5V-tolerant. I wrote C code to read the ROM and send a hex dump
out the USB-serial interface.

Photo:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/21611518545/

As I've needed to use the expansion bus interface of the Tiva for
other projects, even though this was a lot of work to read one ROM,
the experience and maybe even the code may be useful in the future.

The next issue is that it appears that the 9895 may permute the
address and/or data busses, as the contents of the ROM don't actually
look like reasonable Z80 code.

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Sep 21 20:09:14 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:09:14 -0400
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560033BD.8000101@update.uu.se>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to> <560033BD.8000101@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <5600AA3A.8000603@compsys.to>

 >Johnny Billquist wrote:

>> In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite
>> easy.  The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer
>> being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB
>> of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since
>> the controller supported only 18-bit addresses. 
>
> This would be the Qbus controller. And that is an annoying detail, 
> yes. You need a bounce buffer in the low part of memory. One of a few 
> Qbus controllers with 18-bit addressing for DMA.

Well, it was an early controller and since it was for a floppy
drive and the problem was really only with a Mapped RT-11
Monitor when the user buffer was in extended memory above
1/4 MB, it really was not a major problem.   What actually
might be more of a problem (if I ever finish the job of placing
the code and bounce buffer into extended memory) is making
sure that the portion of extended memory is below 1/4 MB.
That would be the responsibility of the installation code to
allocate the memory and check to make sure that the bounce
buffer is below 1/4 MB. 

I guess that could also be done with the RK05 controller
and the original RL01 / RL02 controller.  The latter versions
of the RL01 / RL02 controller support 22-bit user buffer
addresses.  What about tape controllers?

And then there is the problem of making sure that other programs
and device drivers don't gobble up the memory below 1/4 MB
which they don't actually require.  That aspect, it turns out is
actually very easy to solve.  The code to allocate any extended
memory in RT-11 normally allocates memory from the bottom
up.  However, it is possible to change a single word of just one
of the instructions in the XALLOC subroutine in RT-11 so that
all of the memory is allocated from the top down!  And since it
is a single word being changed, it is not even necessary to stop
interrupts while it is being done.  Eventually I want to write the
code for XAX.SYS which will support:
SET  XA  HIGH
SET  XA  LOW
SET  XA  TOGGLE
SET  XA  BOOT=[LOW,HIGH]
SET  XA  SHOW
SET  XA  HELP
and allow the user to control how extended memory is allocated
under a Mapped RT-11 Monitor.

R  RESORC /Z
already provides the current setting, otherwise provided by:
SHOW  CONFIGURATION

I guess I could check the setting in DYX.SYS before I allocate
the extended memory and toggle the setting back after the
extended memory is allocated.

>> Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies
>> was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided
>> floppies.  That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch
>> to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and
>> that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single-
>> sided index hole.  While a number of 8" floppies had been
>> purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less
>> than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes
>> in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly
>> apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time
>> solution.  What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the
>> single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with
>> the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes
>> were in different positions.  The timing did not seem to matter.
>> Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one
>> way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated
>> was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!)
>> wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a
>> double-sided floppy.
>>
>> In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS
>> supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive
>> under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor.  So I set about the job of the
>> LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media.  As mentioned above,
>> in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about
>> a dozen other brands.  To make a long story short at this point,
>> the results were "interesting".  Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy
>> could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density.  On the other
>> hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8"
>> floppies managed to complete the LLF.  The other 1/3 of the
>> DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side,
>> but not on the second side.
>>
>> Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not
>> necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability
>> with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked.  In addition,
>> there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and
>> there was no 50 gallon oil drum.  There was also no refusal
>> by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support
>> the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked.
>>
>> Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was
>> even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to
>> take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed
>> to do so.  There was probably one floppy that was so severely
>> damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that
>> was a specific exception.  Any 8" floppy which could take a
>> double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully
>> when used in practice. 
>
> Probably qualification differences. DEC only cared if one side was 
> good. So floppies with one bad side were still acceptable for DEC, 
> since they only used one side anyway.
> Floppies sold as double sided needed to pass testing on both sides.

I would agree with your analysis if any of the other non-DEC floppy
brands had even a couple of floppies which had not accepted an LLF
for double-sided operation.  BUT,  NOT  EVEN  ONE??????????
It seems a bit unlikely unless DEC specifically managed to locate a
shipment at an excellent cost advantage and the floppies could be
made at less expense.

Don't forget that except for less than 10% of the floppies being
specifically for double-sided operation, all of the other non-DEC
brand floppies were also sold ONLY for single-sided operation.

So how did ONLY  DEC manage to acquire the one batch of
floppy media that supported using a substantial portion of them
(about 33% if I remember correctly) on only one side even
though they were coated on both sides.  In fact, I used to wonder
why the floppy material was coated on both sides in the first
place.  By then, double-sided 5 1/4" floppies were the standard
for the PC systems, so it was reasonable for all floppy media
to be produced to support double-sided operation.

ALL  LONG  AGO  NOW  IN  THE  PAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerome Fine

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Sep 21 20:23:53 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:23:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <5600893A.6050209@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600893A.6050209@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201509220123.VAA25847@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Wirth & Co. started the project in FORTRAN, but gave up, particularly
> when it was realized that implementing data structures and recursion
> in FORTRAN was going to be a bit of a task.

I think that if I wanted to build a Pascal compiler in FORTRAN I would
build a p-code engine in FORTRAN and implement the compiler in that.

But I don't know if they had the concepts to do that.  Not that I think
that inventing a p-code engine was beyond them, but it certainly would
have raised the bar.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:29:03 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:29:03 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <9325E177-F1FA-4B0C-9229-8153E140BE04@comcast.net>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
 <56003486.7030606@update.uu.se>
 <9325E177-F1FA-4B0C-9229-8153E140BE04@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5600AEDF.4090304@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 19:20, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> ...
>>> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
>>
>> Ugh! The PRO controller probably was weird enough to not allow you, even though as far as I understand, it was also way more primitive than MSCP.
>
> Way more primitive is a polite way of putting it.  Just like all other PRO controllers DEC ever built, it uses programmed I/O.  The curious thing is that the PRO bus actually appears to support DMA, but it was never used, not even for the hard drive or network interface.  All those devices do I/O to on-card memory, and then the driver has to move it to/from host memory.

DECs various decisions related to the PRO are probably a mystery to all.

> I haven't tried this, but the PRO technical manual (on Bitsavers) shows that (a) there is no way to do formatting, but (b) you can configure the controller to accept, for reading but not writing, various non-RX50 formats.

Interesting. I haven't even tried digging that deep into the 
documentation. If I ever found the drivers for the hardisk and floppy 
for P/OS I could possibly consider trying to build something more purely 
RSX-like, but I doubt that will happen.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:30:53 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:30:53 +0200
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <89AE1B41-2E48-4251-B1F8-47409748565D@comcast.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBD5089@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <20150918010535.D9D302073C37@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5600AF4D.9030505@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 21:18, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> [...] a first encounter with the notion, at least for me, involved
>>>> FORTRAN, not any language.  [...]
>>> I've always thought of FORTRAN as a language, so I am clearly
>>> missing something here.  What?
>> Probably a misspeak.   But FORTRAN is more than simply a
>> language--it's a way of life.  :)
>
> A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language.

And GOD is REAL unless declared INTEGER... Yes, FORTRAN is fun. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 21 20:32:56 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:32:56 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <201509220123.VAA25847@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600893A.6050209@sydex.com>
 <201509220123.VAA25847@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <5600AFC8.4020706@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 06:23 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> Wirth & Co. started the project in FORTRAN, but gave up, particularly
>> when it was realized that implementing data structures and recursion
>> in FORTRAN was going to be a bit of a task.
>
> I think that if I wanted to build a Pascal compiler in FORTRAN I would
> build a p-code engine in FORTRAN and implement the compiler in that.
>
> But I don't know if they had the concepts to do that.  Not that I think
> that inventing a p-code engine was beyond them, but it certainly would
> have raised the bar.

Wirth and Co. didn't invent P-code.  I worked with a fellow who did a 
P-code implementation of COBOL back in the 60s (it ran in a 6600 PP).

--Chuck


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 20:37:48 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:37:48 -0600
Subject: Reading a masked ROM the hard way (was Re: Wanted: ROM images
 from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB disk drives)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSFgfv1k9N+NxcuiYpGuJUr6oJZmX3WHSh_iCRL_NkTBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSFgfv1k9N+NxcuiYpGuJUr6oJZmX3WHSh_iCRL_NkTBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQQrVxxZeMGeYPKQXALNVdHOwcTK+PfP2+Tb7=DyEWCfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, that's not the hardest way. You could also do this:
    http://www.pmonta.com/calculators/hp-35/

I have a few chips that I'll need to do that to, where the ROM is
embedded and can't be read out electrically. Unfortunately the chips
are in a much finer geometry than the HP-35 chips, so it's much more
difficult.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Sep 21 20:39:00 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:39:00 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small
 eclipse 
Message-ID: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com>

would like to find  blue dg et head  looking terminal to go with  small 
eclipse 
this  thing is a beauty and has a tiny side by  side reel   to reel deck
 
just  would be nice to have a terminal to  display with it   in the museum.
drop us a line  offlinst...
ed sharpe archivist     for   smecc

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:42:50 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:42:50 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5600B21A.1040203@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 21:41, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:14 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>
>> Recently, there have been a number of references to using
>> overlays on the PDP-11.  There have also been strong suggestions
>> that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating
>> systems:  RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11.
>>
>> Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but
>> for those readers who don't:
>>
>> ROOT
>> - contains overlay code subroutines and data tables
>> - data used by more than one overlay
>>
>> FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>> SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>> THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>
>> FREE  MEMORY
>>
>> Any overlay could be called from any location.  About the only
>> requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the
>> code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory
>> when the code returned from the overlay.  In practice, the usual
>> protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called
>> from a lower region or the root.
>>
>> I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex.
>> Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the
>> details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet?
>
> RSTS has no specific structure of its own.  It provided both RT-11 and RSX emulation, and as a result would offer the structures from both of those, depending on which environment you chose for a particular application.

Right. In a way you could say that in RSTS/E you pick the best solution 
for the job. No need to tie yourself one way or the other. I wonder, did 
anyone ever write a Unix RTS for RSTS/E? It should be doable...

> RSX uses a tree structure.  For details (lots of details) see the TKB manual.

Indeed. The TKB manuals is what Jerome needs to read if he really wants 
to know...

> Suppose you have main which calls o1.  o1 calls o2 which calls o3, and o1 also calls o5 which calls o6.
>
> In the RSX case, you could specify a tree with two branches: main to o1 and from there o2 to o3, and o5 to o6.  In the RT11 case, you might put o1 in region 1, o2 and o5 in region 2, and o3 and o6 in region 3.
>
> The memory requirements would be:
>
> 	rt11: main + o1 + max (o2, o5) + max (o3, o6)
> 	rsx:  main + o1 + max (o2 + o3, o5 + o6)
>
> If o2 and o6 are large while o3 and o5 are small, then the RSX case gives you a smaller memory footprint.

No need to stop there. Like you said, it is a tree. And exactly how many 
branches, how deep, or how much you put in each "node" is up to you. But 
in addition, you also have co-trees. No need for just one tree. You can 
have many. The only rules are that you cannot call something up the 
tree, except to the root.
With co-trees, you get several roots. Which means, in turn, that you can 
have several branches that all call the same routine, even though that 
routine is also in an overlay, since this will not break the tree 
structure. (Assuming the routine you call is in another co-tree.)
In addition, overlays in RSX can be either autoloading, or you can write 
your own code to actually do the loading. And overlays can either be 
disk resident, or memory resident. Memory resident overlays are way 
faster, since they work by instead doing PLAS calls to just change the 
task mappings, and do not involve the disk at all. However, that also 
means that your overlays always start on an even 8K.
The whole thing can become very complex, and you have a whole language 
to describe how your overlays are laid out, relates to each other, how 
they are loaded, and so on. It's called the Overlay Description 
Language, or ODL. The largest ODL-file I've ever done was for DUNGEON 
version 3.2 (sorry, will only fit on RSX-11M-PLUS), and that thing is 70 
lines of stuff. A few empty lines, but mostly code.
The largest I've touched is for RMD, which weights in at 177 lines to 
describe the overlay structure.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:49:20 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:49:20 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <72ECDAFF-4648-4317-8413-30D566C82939@comcast.net>
References: <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5399@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <20150921065002.GA98864@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D542F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <560019AE.3080503@update.uu.se>
 <EB425B2B-A5BE-4BF2-AC47-2D9A8515C693@comcast.net>
 <560030B8.60700@update.uu.se> <56005F37.7050701@compsys.to>
 <72ECDAFF-4648-4317-8413-30D566C82939@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5600B3A0.30701@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 22:27, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>
>>> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>>> On 2015-09-21 17:03, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>
>>>> And it would certainly be possible to write a driver that can handle both controllers; it would start by determining which controller it's dealing with, and then run the one or the other set of algorithms.  Since a boot block is just a small driver, the same is true there, so long as the whole body of code fits in the available space.  I suspect in this case that's doable; most bootloaders (other than MSCP ones) require only a small fraction of the available space.
>>>
>>> You are absolutely right.
>>> And I don't know the actual size of the boot blocks. It might very well be that they both fits in the same boot block, which would be nice.
>>> I know that the M9312 have separate boot roms for the RX11 and the RX211, but those boot roms are pretty tiny...
>>>
>>> And I don't know if the RX211 boot rom also deals with RX01 floppies, but I would assume it does.
>>
>> I don't know how RSX-11 and RSTS/E manage their device
>> drivers and allocate the memory for that code.  BUT, under
>> RT-11, each device driver uses memory which the user program
>> can't use. ...
>> Finally, while the boot code could certainly support both
>> the RX01 and the RX02 drive, there would be no point
>> since the code in the device driver supports only one
>> drive.
>
> RSTS isn't as frugal with memory as RT11 is.  It has a bit of per-unit memory whether the device is present or not.  But the kernel can be built with all sorts of device drivers for devices that aren't actually present.  If so, those are disabled at boot.

RSX does it somewhat different, but the basic idea is similar. At boot 
time, devices are mark offline or online depending on whether they 
actually exists. And in addition, you can always load and unload drivers 
while the system is running. So, you can do as you choose.
The drivers for RX11 and RX211 are separate and different. You might 
have both loaded at the same time, and just have one online, depending 
on which controller you actually have.
Or, if you have a multiprocessor system, you can always hot-plug them as 
well, and bring devices on- and offline as you feel like it, just as 
easily as you can change what CSR address and vector to use.

> So for RSTS, it certainly makes sense to have a multi-lingual boot block, if you're dealing with a medium that can be installed into several types of drives with different controllers.

Also true for RSX, whenever possible. Unfortunately, not all devices can 
be booted by the same bootblock, but the most common ones can.

> The RX01/RX02 case doesn't occur for RSTS since those aren't supported as boot devices.  But the analogous scenario does apply to magtape.  The RSTS magtape boot block works with every PDP-11 controller capable of supporting that tape, so 1600 BPI tapes can boot on TU16, TS80 (gag) and TMSCP controllers.  Yes, that's a fun bit of code.

Same with RSX. RX01/RX02 are too small to even be possible to boot from. 
All magtapes use the same bootblock. MSCP and Massbus disks also share a 
common boot block. RL01/RL02 have its own boot block, as do the 
RK06/RK07. And those are the only available options for booting.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:53:32 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:53:32 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
 <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5600B49C.8040008@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 23:16, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 3:14 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>>
>>> Recently, there have been a number of references to using
>>> overlays on the PDP-11.  There have also been strong suggestions
>>> that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating
>>> systems:  RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11.
>>>
>>> Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but
>>> for those readers who don't:
>>>
>>> ROOT
>>> - contains overlay code subroutines and data tables
>>> - data used by more than one overlay
>>>
>>> FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>>
>>> SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>>
>>> THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region
>>> - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay
>>>
>>> FREE  MEMORY
>>>
>>> Any overlay could be called from any location.  About the only
>>> requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the
>>> code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory
>>> when the code returned from the overlay.  In practice, the usual
>>> protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called
>>> from a lower region or the root.
>>>
>>> I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex.
>>> Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the
>>> details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet?
>>>
>>
>> RSTS has no specific structure of its own.  It provided both RT-11 and
>> RSX emulation, and as a result would offer the structures from both of
>> those, depending on which environment you chose for a particular
>> application.
>>
>> RSX uses a tree structure.  For details (lots of details) see the TKB
>> manual.
>>
>> Suppose you have main which calls o1.  o1 calls o2 which calls o3, and
>> o1 also calls o5 which calls o6.
>> In the RSX case, you could specify a tree with two branches: main to
>> o1 and from there o2 to o3, and o5 to o6.  In the RT11 case, you might
>> put o1 in region 1, o2 and o5 in region 2, and o3 and o6 in region 3.
>>
>> The memory requirements would be:
>>
>>     rt11: main + o1 + max (o2, o5) + max (o3, o6)
>>     rsx:  main + o1 + max (o2 + o3, o5 + o6)
>>
>> If o2 and o6 are large while o3 and o5 are small, then the RSX case
>> gives you a smaller memory footprint.
>>
> In RT-11, you can also put o5 in region three and o6 in region two
> and still have o5 call o6.  If TKB does not allow that, then it is
> more restrictive in some ways than RT-11.  So the memory
> requirements would be:
>
>             RT-11:  main + max (o2, o6) + max (o3, o5)
>
> This is probably better than the RT-11 memory requirement which
> you suggested, but likely not as good as the RSX-11 memory
> requirement.
>
> Also, my example is rarely that simple in actual practice.
>
> Another important aspect is that RT-11 has a few extra instructions
> in the overlay handler which determines if the overlay is already in
> memory.  The linker assigns an overlay number to each overlay and
> places that value (actually *6) in the first word of each overlay as a
> data value that the user program does not see.  When the overlay
> handler is invoked and the address to be used for the .ReadF request
> is found, the overlay handler checks to determine if that value *6 is
> still in the first word.  If so, the overlay handler can assume that the
> overlay is still in memory and the call can jump to the normal entry
> address for that subroutine call without the overhead of reading the
> overlay  NOTE that this check depends on a region which has
> the same starting address for all overlays within the region and
> no overlap between regions.  This allows for that extra word
> which the user code is unaware of and never accesses.
>
> In MACRO-11 which executes under RT-11, I modified the
> overlay handler to keep track of how many times the overlay
> was called and how may times it needed to be read.  99% of the
> time, the overlay was already in memory and the code was ready
> to be executed.  The number of calls can be so large that a 32-bit
> entry was required to track the number of calls.  It was very easy
> to add the additional code since the instructions to test for the
> overlay being present were already there along with an extra
> register (having already been saved) that pointed to the 32-bit
> entry that kept track of the number of calls as well as the number
> of times that the overlay needed to be read.
>
> My question is if TKB overlays also have these extra instructions?
> For example, if there are three trees with only two trees having a
> second overlay, does the overlay handler know if the second overlay
> for a different tree is still there?  It seems doubtful since a data value
> could, by chance, have the same value that was being checked.
>
> So each overlay handler has advantages and disadvantages.
> I wonder if in RSX-11 the MACRO-11 assembler takes longer
> than in RT-11 when it needs to always read in the overlay?

I don't have the energy to respond in much detail. Suffice to say that 
of course RSX can see if the overlay is already in memory, and will not 
read it in unless actually needed. And yes, as far as memory usage goes, 
in RSX you can always get to the optimal memory usage. But it might 
require some work on your part.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Mon Sep 21 20:55:28 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:55:28 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <D1903877-B1B8-4C79-81C5-3584B2093AE1@nf6x.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <D1903877-B1B8-4C79-81C5-3584B2093AE1@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <007001d0f4d9$c26ae3d0$4740ab70$@net>

> Thanks for sharing the pictures, and I'm glad that the freighting
> worked out! Freight shipment is a bit weird at first, until you get
> used to it.

Mark,

I am excited to get it home! The seller sent me the keys separately and
unfortunately they just arrived today. So it may be a week or two until I
can open it up and see how the inside did....


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:58:26 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:58:26 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <560075F4.3020305@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se> <56003032.6020800@charter.net>
 <33CC267C-60C0-4238-80CA-DE47525C1B4F@comcast.net>
 <56006720.7010303@charter.net> <560075F4.3020305@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5600B5C2.8050708@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 23:26, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Jay Jaeger wrote:
>
>>> On 9/21/2015 11:34 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>> For RX50?  On standard PDP11s, those used an MSCP controller, which
>>> means the controller would have to do it.  Did it?  The only MSCP
>>> controller I remember that did formatting was the UDA50.
>>>
>>> I suppose you could on a Pro, since that had its own particularly
>>> disgusting junk controller.  But I haven't seen RX50 formatting
>>> there.  My impression was that they came factory formatted, with the
>>> DEC-specific 10 sector per track format.
>>>
>> Acch.  Bad memory cells.  This actually was discussed back in 2002.
>> Some of the correspondents in that discussion are also denizens of this
>> mailing list, may recall I made the same mistake back then:
>>
>> The diagnostic was/is:
>>
>> BL-FN7AP-MC CZFNAP0 M-11 FORMTR RX50
>>
>> So, just to verify, I fired up my 11/23 (which hasn't been on in YEARS),
>> which came right up, and inserted the floppy and booted it:
>>
>> It formats:
>>
>> RD51, RD52, RD53 on an RQDX1 or RQDX2
>> RD51, RD52, RD53, RD54, RD31, RD32, RX33 on an RQDDX2
>>
>> Sorry for the confusion.
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> Then you have answered the question!!
>
> But it there may be some possible confusion.  If I remember
> correctly, the RQDX3 was used with the RD54 and RX33
> and the RQDX2 or RQDX3 was used with the RD53.
>
> I could be wrong, but that is what I seem to remember.
>
> So on a PDP-11 Qbus system, it is not possible to FORMAT the
> RX50 which uses an RQDX1, RQDX2 or an RQDX3.
>
> BUT, how is it possible to FORMAT the 5 1/4" RX33  HD floppy
> which uses an RQDX3 controller?
>
> If it can be dome with the RX33, why not with the RX50?

Good question. I don't know why, but it is correct, as far as I know. 
The RQDX3 can format an RX33. Since the RX33 can be formatted for either 
single density or double density, and for that floppy this actually 
means it needs to be reformatted, the RQDX3 supports doing that. So I 
guess the microcode in the RQDX3 just simply detects the RX50 and 
refuses to do the operations required to do formatting there.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 20:59:44 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 03:59:44 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYSQ3KPUv3NSETuHFAS5aMqGQP-E72kErFrKiaBRgRn0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
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 <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
 <CAGN_6pYSQ3KPUv3NSETuHFAS5aMqGQP-E72kErFrKiaBRgRn0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5600B610.1060703@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-21 23:32, David Brownlee wrote:
> On 21 September 2015 at 01:55, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
>>> Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, one would assume this is also OS specific.  I would guess it would
>>>> be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on greatly
>>>> differing OS's like Linux AND Windows.  No telling what would happen if one
>>>> of these disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and then the
>>>> drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux.
>>>> Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is possible to create an executable file that identifies the OS that it
>>> is running on and does a conditional jump to different code, assuming that
>>> the processor uses the same instruction set.
>>>
>>> How different the OS's are would determine how much code could be shared.
>>> If they are very different, then the executable file could be twice as
>>> large, with no code in common.
>>>
>>>
>>> It is even possible to make a disk that is readable as multiple disk
>>> formats, so long as each is expecting the DIRectory tracks to be in
>>> different places.
>>> One of the many projects that I never got ready for market was to make a
>>> multi-platform distribution format for software.  "Save a few cents on media
>>> costs by putting all of your platforms on one disk"  But, after August 1981,
>>> it eventually became apparent that the need for such was not going to be
>>> around much longer.
>>>
>>> If the boot code is short enough, it is even possible to have an FM, an
>>> MFM, and a GCR boot sector in the same boot track, since each will not even
>>> see any except its own.  Formatting/recording a track with mixed densities
>>> and/or encodings and multiple sector sizes is not a supported function in
>>> most operating systems, nor even FDCs, but can be done with some flux
>>> transition controllers.
>>
>>
>> I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
>> with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
>> for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
>> on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot code
>> under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
>> CD to be bootable under Windows.
>>
>> Under RT-11, the first six hard disk blocks (0 to 5) are reserved for boot
>> code (when that is present) and hard disk blocks from 6 up to 67 are used
>> for an RT-11 directory.  RT-11 rarely uses that large a directory and the
>> minimum directory is only two hard disk block long.  For the CD, that
>> allowed an RT-11 directory from hard disk blocks 6 to 63 or up to
>> sector 15.
>>
>> What may have been unique was that only the RT-11 directory and the
>> CD  ISO directory were distinct.  Otherwise, all the files were the same
>> with each directory pointing to the same location on the ISO image.
>>
>> In practice, the same CD could be used as a data CD under Windows
>> in addition to being a boot disk on a real DEC  RT-11 system which
>> supported that operating system.  I was actually on the phone at one
>> point when the first individual who received a copy of the CD used
>> it to boot RT-11 on a CDROM drive configured to support 512 byte
>> blocks using a CQD 220/TM host adapter.
>>
>> The same ISO image file can also be used under both SimH and Ersatz-11
>> in the same manner, although it is STRONGLY recommended that the
>> ATTACH or MOUNT command use the ISO image file as READ  ONLY.
>> Ersatz-11 is also able to MOUNT the actual RAW CD on a CDROM
>> SCSI drive and boot RT-11 from the CD.  Of course, the Windows
>> operating system under which Ersatz-11 is also able to see all the same
>> files on the CD as well, BUT  NOT  AT  THE  SAME  TIME - at
>> least I never did attempt that possibility.
>>
>> If this can be done with Windows and RT-11 which have completely
>> different file structures and instructions sets, it certainly seems likely
>> that other operating systems and system hardware can also be supported.
>> The one thing that seemed reasonable from a security point of view is
>> that the CD is READ  ONLY, so no virus can be introduced on the
>> CD after it is burned.
>>
>> Tim Shoppa did almost the same thing with his RT-11  Freeware CD
>> when an RT-11 directory was added at the end of the ISO image file
>> for the CD.
>>
>> If anyone finds this interesting and has additional questions, please ask.
>
> Before the price of media and storage dropped so much NetBSD install
> ISOs were multiboot - one image which booted on alpha, i386, pmax, and
> sparc (and I think theoretically also macppc, vax and sun2, sun3 and
> sun3x if it hadn't run out of room for the install files :)
> http://www.netbsd.org/docs/bootcd.html#multiimage
>
> So much cool stuff no-one bothers with now days...

I actually did boot NetBSD/vax from CD at one point, so it worked in 
practice as well.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 21:16:11 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 04:16:11 +0200
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <56009C27.2030108@compsys.to>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
 <56007398.6070802@compsys.to>
 <9E8E6498-7A61-4A3A-B0B8-D74C2898AD7A@comcast.net>
 <56009C27.2030108@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5600B9EB.8070908@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-22 02:09, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>> Another important aspect is that RT-11 has a few extra instructions
>>> in the overlay handler which determines if the overlay is already in
>>> memory. ...
>>>
>>> My question is if TKB overlays also have these extra instructions?
>>>
>> Yes, it also tracks if something is already resident.  I haven't
>> looked into the details.  (The only overlay machinery I studied to any
>> significant extent is the RT-11 one.)
>>
> Is there any documentation as to the actual details?

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/RSX11Mplus_V4.x/4b/AA-JS08A-TC_RSX-11M-PLUS_and_Micro_RSX_4.0_Task_Builder_Manual_Sep87.pdf

Chapter 3 and 4 give the basics. Chapter 5 through 9 give details in 
relations to what the respective chapter is about. Figures on pages 3-5 
and 3-6 might give you a goo starting idea of what you can do.

> As I mentioned, For the RT-11 overlay handler integrated with
> the LINK program (both are essential), when those aspects
> are combined with overlay regions defined by the maximum
> size of the overlay in a given region, the first word of every
> region is devoted to the overlay (*6) number.  Since that
> location is not available to the overlay and is unique to the
> overlay, the overlay handler can check to determine which
> overlay is resident in the region.
>
> With overlay trees in TKB, that method can't be used unless
> the line up the tree is intact.  I am attempting to visualize the
> code which could determine if that is true, but at the moment
> it escapes me.  Can anyone provide any details?
>
> Otherwise, I can see where the first overlay in any tree can
> be determined, but unless a given tree is enforced, there does
> not seem to be any way to check if overlays further up the tree
> are also resident?

There are no checks that the tree is intact at runtime. This is checked 
during the task build. You cannot refer to symbols that are outside you 
call tree if you look upwards.

> Is there a manual available on overlays using TKB that is
> on the internet?

Gave it above.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 21 21:26:02 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 04:26:02 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <5600AA3A.8000603@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
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 <5600AA3A.8000603@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5600BC3A.7090202@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-22 03:09, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  >Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>>> In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite
>>> easy.  The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer
>>> being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB
>>> of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since
>>> the controller supported only 18-bit addresses.
>>
>> This would be the Qbus controller. And that is an annoying detail,
>> yes. You need a bounce buffer in the low part of memory. One of a few
>> Qbus controllers with 18-bit addressing for DMA.
>
> Well, it was an early controller and since it was for a floppy
> drive and the problem was really only with a Mapped RT-11
> Monitor when the user buffer was in extended memory above
> 1/4 MB, it really was not a major problem.   What actually
> might be more of a problem (if I ever finish the job of placing
> the code and bounce buffer into extended memory) is making
> sure that the portion of extended memory is below 1/4 MB.
> That would be the responsibility of the installation code to
> allocate the memory and check to make sure that the bounce
> buffer is below 1/4 MB.
> I guess that could also be done with the RK05 controller
> and the original RL01 / RL02 controller.  The latter versions
> of the RL01 / RL02 controller support 22-bit user buffer
> addresses.  What about tape controllers?

Yes, it was an early controller, from before the Qbus actually was 
22-bit addressed.

RSX solves this by creating a partition when the driver comes online, 
and making sure this memory partition is below 256K. And then all DMA 
goes through that memory partition, and then the drive copies the data 
to the final destination when DMA finishes (or the reverse on writes).
All done only in the case it detects it's an RXV21 and not an RX211.

>>> Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies
>>> was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided
>>> floppies.  That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch
>>> to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and
>>> that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single-
>>> sided index hole.  While a number of 8" floppies had been
>>> purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less
>>> than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes
>>> in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly
>>> apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time
>>> solution.  What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the
>>> single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with
>>> the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes
>>> were in different positions.  The timing did not seem to matter.
>>> Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one
>>> way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated
>>> was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!)
>>> wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a
>>> double-sided floppy.
>>>
>>> In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS
>>> supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive
>>> under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor.  So I set about the job of the
>>> LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media.  As mentioned above,
>>> in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about
>>> a dozen other brands.  To make a long story short at this point,
>>> the results were "interesting".  Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy
>>> could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density.  On the other
>>> hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8"
>>> floppies managed to complete the LLF.  The other 1/3 of the
>>> DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side,
>>> but not on the second side.
>>>
>>> Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not
>>> necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability
>>> with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked.  In addition,
>>> there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and
>>> there was no 50 gallon oil drum.  There was also no refusal
>>> by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support
>>> the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked.
>>>
>>> Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was
>>> even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to
>>> take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed
>>> to do so.  There was probably one floppy that was so severely
>>> damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that
>>> was a specific exception.  Any 8" floppy which could take a
>>> double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully
>>> when used in practice.
>>
>> Probably qualification differences. DEC only cared if one side was
>> good. So floppies with one bad side were still acceptable for DEC,
>> since they only used one side anyway.
>> Floppies sold as double sided needed to pass testing on both sides.
>
> I would agree with your analysis if any of the other non-DEC floppy
> brands had even a couple of floppies which had not accepted an LLF
> for double-sided operation.  BUT,  NOT  EVEN  ONE??????????
> It seems a bit unlikely unless DEC specifically managed to locate a
> shipment at an excellent cost advantage and the floppies could be
> made at less expense.

Why? Other manufacturers sold floppies the thought might be used in 
double-sided drives, so they didn't ship any that wasn't good on both sides.

> Don't forget that except for less than 10% of the floppies being
> specifically for double-sided operation, all of the other non-DEC
> brand floppies were also sold ONLY for single-sided operation.
>
> So how did ONLY  DEC manage to acquire the one batch of
> floppy media that supported using a substantial portion of them
> (about 33% if I remember correctly) on only one side even
> though they were coated on both sides.  In fact, I used to wonder
> why the floppy material was coated on both sides in the first
> place.  By then, double-sided 5 1/4" floppies were the standard
> for the PC systems, so it was reasonable for all floppy media
> to be produced to support double-sided operation.
>
> ALL  LONG  AGO  NOW  IN  THE  PAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because they were sold branded "single side" didn't mean the 
manufacturers didn't check both sides and just trashed the ones not 
passing. It all depends on knowing you customers and the potential use 
they made of your product. Noone but DEC customers would by a genuine 
RX01 floppy in the first place, and those who did used them exclusively 
on RX01 drives, so it was pretty much a given that only one side would 
be used. Since both sides were coated, check one side, it if fails, 
check the other. No point in trashing, if one side was working. They 
charged good money for those floppies. I thought we had already 
established that.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 22:01:00 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:01:00 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <007001d0f4d9$c26ae3d0$4740ab70$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <D1903877-B1B8-4C79-81C5-3584B2093AE1@nf6x.net>
 <007001d0f4d9$c26ae3d0$4740ab70$@net>
Message-ID: <FFC68025-2589-4DC6-A9A0-453E7FC648F2@nf6x.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 18:55, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
> I am excited to get it home! The seller sent me the keys separately and
> unfortunately they just arrived today. So it may be a week or two until I
> can open it up and see how the inside did....

I would have picked the locks, but that's just how I roll. :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 23:39:38 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:39:38 -0700
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442854800.62252.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442854800.62252.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4099DD8C5E324C419C14F4F10BEDAFDC@workshop>

Oh, that blue 1970's psychedelic color! The fast line printer! The vacuum
column drive (drool)! And it is alive! Congratulations!
Marc


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 21 23:58:47 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 04:58:47 +0000
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <5600A15C.1000208@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>,
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5600A15C.1000208@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5743@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> HOWEVER, while the PDP-11 is still unable to perform an
> LLF on an RX50 when an RQDX3 is present, it is possible
> to perform an LLF on a floppy in an RX33.  Does that still
> seem compatible with your explanation?

Yes, that confused me too. The RQDX3 is clearly capable of
LLFing a floppy. So either (unlikely) DEC specifically do
not allow the right set of commands to LLF an RX50 or
(more likely) that bit of software you have doesn't do it
(although others can) possibly so as not to cut into DEC's
sales of pre-formatted disks.

Sorry I don't know more, the RQDXs are too modern for me.

-tony

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 21 16:31:52 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 14:31:52 -0700
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <5600690E.4070608@charter.net>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucpzPLdOYvMr1x_BwV0PJ9QuMqNwt8K4P4yb8fEV9KrLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5600690E.4070608@charter.net>
Message-ID: <635BA942-2F8B-457F-8960-E75782AA542D@nf6x.net>

I have an LA120. It's working fine, and I haven't looked inside yet.

I also have one of the little Correspondents (I forget the LA number), waiting for me to get around to rebuilding a ribbon for it.

I'm not sure if I have a convenient way to dump the 23xx ROMs yet. I don't have my Data-I/O 212 handy to look at its supported device list. 

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Sep 21 17:16:46 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:16:46 -0400
Subject: Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?
In-Reply-To: <20150921215450.A332518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150921215450.A332518C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWKBJmPiVZDq7ZdjfGHhTXJjrr+PX_PM7+a_hNj7jq2iA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know the size and curvature of the area to be treated but I would
maybe try just doing like the auto body guys do and sand down with some
fine grit sandpaper, maybe treat with a corrosion inhibitor, degrease and
then repaint. Seems like hand sanding would have less overhead in
equipment; be less expensive; easier to get started and may give a little
better "feel" for the job, versus a blasting booth ... I think with decent
technique you can get a very nice finish just hand sanding and using spray
paint.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Jay West
>
>     > A couple items in my holdings have rust ... The only good solution I
>     > could see is having the existing metalwork sandblasted and then
>     > repainted. I've not checked, but I suspect that's "non-trivial-$".
>     > Thoughts?
>
> Iff you have access to an air compressor, small sandblast units can be had
> at
> Harbour Freight for less than $50. If you don't have a compressor... well,
> that's considerably more money, but I find a compressor is a very useful
> thing to have.
>
> I feed our sandblast unit (one of the HF ones) with playground sand, a
> couple
> of $ per bag, which I feed through a sieve made of 4 pieces of scrap wood
> (frame) and some plastic door/window screen. (If you don't sieve it, the
> cheapo play sand has larger bits in it which tend to jam the nozzle.) And
> the
> sieve allows me to be _really_ cheap and sweep up the sand and recycle it.
>
> I refinished an H960 which I got which was in pretty nasty condition (very
> severe rust on the bottom surface, some rust elsewhere, e.g. on the
> uprights)
> using this rig, and some tins of spray paint (Rustoleum flat black), and it
> came out looking brand spanking new. (My attempt to do the same with a BA11
> ran into some shoals, I screwed up the spray-painting - definitely an art!
> :-)
>
> Anyway, if you're up for doing it yourself, it's a useful capability to
> have
> in-house.
>
>         Noel
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Mon Sep 21 17:20:16 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:20:16 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Huh, interesting ... I bet that thing is built like an old Steelcase! Looks
heavy :O

Best,

Sean


On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> Well,
>
> In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller
> did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to
> everyone
> for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested you
> can check out some quick pictures here:
>
> http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html
>
> The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it
> cleaned
> up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120.
>
> -Ali
>
>

From jgevaryahu at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 22:02:26 2015
From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 23:02:26 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>

There isn't a complete archive of these ROMs in existence currently. 
Pete Turnbull's site does contain an archive, but it isn't anywhere near 
complete. The drivers in MAME/MESS also act as a sort of archive as well.

The direct prompt of this request was the desire to get one or more of 
the dot matrix teleprinters running in MAME/MESS, the progress of which 
can be seen at 
https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mess/drivers/decwritr.c 
, with the LA120, but the ROMs I have right know for the LA120 fail 
their built-in checksum test, so I'm stuck at a development impasse 
until I can get some more roms to work with (or correctly re-dumped 
copies of the existing roms).

The end result of what I'm trying to do would hopefully look something 
like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l20V7f2sM8c

On 9/21/2015 3:19 PM, william degnan wrote:

    What are you going to do with these?  Is there a ROM archive for DEC
    printer ROMs?

    On 9/21/2015 3:14 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote:
>     Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210
>     somewhere which they could dump the ROMs from?
>
>     Notes:
>     The LA36 uses several proms for its discrete cpu, and 2 character
>     set roms which I believe have an 'odd' pinout.
>
>     The LA120, one of the roms on the '2 rom version' is an 8k 2364 24
>     pin chip which is a bit annoying to dump, since you either need a
>     2364->2764 24->28 pin adapter, or (better) a programmer which can
>     dump MC68764 or MC68766 24-pin 8k eproms (which have the same
>     pinout as 2364). The other rom on the 2 rom version is a 2k 2316
>     24 pin chip.
>     The oldest LA120 version uses 5 roms, all 2k 2316s. The code on
>     the 5-rom version and the 2-rom version may very well be the same
>     (the first 4 2k chips consolidated to one 8k chip), I'm not sure.
>     Would be nice to get dumps of both versions.
>     The LAS12 uses different code from the LA120 and to the best of my
>     knowledge all LAS12s use 2 roms, one 8k and one 2k.
>
>     LA34, theres at LEAST five firmware versions, almost certainly
>     six, and possibly as many as seven. There is also a special
>     firmware for a 'rom expansion' daughterboard.
>     The 1978 LA34 "54-13374" motherboard has a bizarre Intel i8355
>     mask rom+io chip in it, plus a separate rom as well. (there are at
>     least two versions of said i8355+rom firmware). Dumping the i8355
>     is not for the faint of heart, it would likely be easier to insert
>     a 'dumping program' eprom into the single rom's socket, and use
>     the LA34's cpu to spit its own rom contents out via serial.
>     The 1980 LA34 "54-13747" motherboard lacks the i8355 and uses 2 or
>     3 mask roms or eproms on it instead (and 74xx logic for the i/o).
>     There are at least three rom revisions for this, possibly four or
>     five.
>
>     LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's definitely at least
>     one rom revision. Also to the best of my knowledge neither the
>     maintenance print set nor the technical manual for the LA100 are
>     scanned (they certainly don't appear at
>     http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/ ),
>     which makes it difficult to know.
>


-- 
Jonathan Gevaryahu
jgevaryahu at gmail.com
jgevaryahu at hotmail.com


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 22:09:14 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 20:09:14 -0700
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
	<5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKQpRszW4sROgGB=Lv1yXL6v8o+TcpjdzjLBRQ6JnamLA@mail.gmail.com>

Any interest in the LA180 DECprinter? I have one of those that I would
have to take a look at to see what sort of ROMs are in it and if they
are socketed and if I could read them.

-Glen

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu
<jgevaryahu at gmail.com> wrote:
> There isn't a complete archive of these ROMs in existence currently. Pete
> Turnbull's site does contain an archive, but it isn't anywhere near
> complete. The drivers in MAME/MESS also act as a sort of archive as well.
>
> The direct prompt of this request was the desire to get one or more of the
> dot matrix teleprinters running in MAME/MESS, the progress of which can be
> seen at
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mess/drivers/decwritr.c ,
> with the LA120, but the ROMs I have right know for the LA120 fail their
> built-in checksum test, so I'm stuck at a development impasse until I can
> get some more roms to work with (or correctly re-dumped copies of the
> existing roms).
>
> The end result of what I'm trying to do would hopefully look something like
> this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l20V7f2sM8c
>
> On 9/21/2015 3:19 PM, william degnan wrote:
>
>    What are you going to do with these?  Is there a ROM archive for DEC
>    printer ROMs?
>
>    On 9/21/2015 3:14 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote:
>>
>>     Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210
>>     somewhere which they could dump the ROMs from?

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 23:10:34 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 00:10:34 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
	<5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucy3ShX4h5mhystyaH1wueG9jBcyjrVnzBZNSFjvsg-+A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  I will see what I can do.
B

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 21, 2015 11:02 PM, "Jonathan Gevaryahu" <jgevaryahu at gmail.com> wrote:

> There isn't a complete archive of these ROMs in existence currently. Pete
> Turnbull's site does contain an archive, but it isn't anywhere near
> complete. The drivers in MAME/MESS also act as a sort of archive as well.
>
> The direct prompt of this request was the desire to get one or more of the
> dot matrix teleprinters running in MAME/MESS, the progress of which can be
> seen at
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mess/drivers/decwritr.c ,
> with the LA120, but the ROMs I have right know for the LA120 fail their
> built-in checksum test, so I'm stuck at a development impasse until I can
> get some more roms to work with (or correctly re-dumped copies of the
> existing roms).
>
> The end result of what I'm trying to do would hopefully look something
> like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l20V7f2sM8c
>
> On 9/21/2015 3:19 PM, william degnan wrote:
>
>    What are you going to do with these?  Is there a ROM archive for DEC
>    printer ROMs?
>
>    On 9/21/2015 3:14 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote:
>
>>     Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210
>>     somewhere which they could dump the ROMs from?
>>
>>     Notes:
>>     The LA36 uses several proms for its discrete cpu, and 2 character
>>     set roms which I believe have an 'odd' pinout.
>>
>>     The LA120, one of the roms on the '2 rom version' is an 8k 2364 24
>>     pin chip which is a bit annoying to dump, since you either need a
>>     2364->2764 24->28 pin adapter, or (better) a programmer which can
>>     dump MC68764 or MC68766 24-pin 8k eproms (which have the same
>>     pinout as 2364). The other rom on the 2 rom version is a 2k 2316
>>     24 pin chip.
>>     The oldest LA120 version uses 5 roms, all 2k 2316s. The code on
>>     the 5-rom version and the 2-rom version may very well be the same
>>     (the first 4 2k chips consolidated to one 8k chip), I'm not sure.
>>     Would be nice to get dumps of both versions.
>>     The LAS12 uses different code from the LA120 and to the best of my
>>     knowledge all LAS12s use 2 roms, one 8k and one 2k.
>>
>>     LA34, theres at LEAST five firmware versions, almost certainly
>>     six, and possibly as many as seven. There is also a special
>>     firmware for a 'rom expansion' daughterboard.
>>     The 1978 LA34 "54-13374" motherboard has a bizarre Intel i8355
>>     mask rom+io chip in it, plus a separate rom as well. (there are at
>>     least two versions of said i8355+rom firmware). Dumping the i8355
>>     is not for the faint of heart, it would likely be easier to insert
>>     a 'dumping program' eprom into the single rom's socket, and use
>>     the LA34's cpu to spit its own rom contents out via serial.
>>     The 1980 LA34 "54-13747" motherboard lacks the i8355 and uses 2 or
>>     3 mask roms or eproms on it instead (and 74xx logic for the i/o).
>>     There are at least three rom revisions for this, possibly four or
>>     five.
>>
>>     LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's definitely at least
>>     one rom revision. Also to the best of my knowledge neither the
>>     maintenance print set nor the technical manual for the LA100 are
>>     scanned (they certainly don't appear at
>>     http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/ ),
>>     which makes it difficult to know.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jonathan Gevaryahu
> jgevaryahu at gmail.com
> jgevaryahu at hotmail.com
>
>

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 23:20:27 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 00:20:27 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD434680A8A1419A879E11FB623A47E1@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Gevaryahu" <jgevaryahu at gmail.com>
To: <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 3:14 PM
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms


> Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, 
> LA100, or LA210 somewhere which they could dump 
> the ROMs from?
....
>
> LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's 
> definitely at least one rom revision. Also to 
> the best of my knowledge neither the maintenance 
> print set nor the technical manual for the LA100 
> are scanned (they certainly don't appear at 
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/ ) 
> , which makes it difficult to know.
>
> -- 
> Jonathan Gevaryahu
> jgevaryahu at gmail.com
> jgevaryahu at hotmail.com
>

----- Reply -----

I've scrapped several LA100s and may even still 
have a complete one somewhere, but I should at 
least still have a PCB with the ROMs. When I find 
it I'll dump them and email them to you.

Note that there were two versions of the LA100: 
the LetterWriter (with full keyboard) and the 
LetterPrinter (with only a small control panel); 
mine are/were the RO LetterPrinters.

I should also still have the complete maintenance 
docs. I checked Bitsavers a few years ago to see 
if they were worth scanning and I could have sworn 
they already had them, including the print set, so 
I forgot about them; don't see it now so the 
senility must be getting worse.

I'll have a look but if/when I find them I don't 
think I can scan the print set; IIRC the pages 
were longer than 14".

m 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 01:37:44 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 07:37:44 +0100
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FB6B8E.5020106@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <201509181058.GAA03528@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com>
 <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se> <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>

If you wanted portability then Fortran or Cobol were pretty much all you
had. Whilst there may have been C compilers you probably didn't have one,
certainly in the world of commerce. Which is why our X.25 code was in
Fortran..
On Sep 22, 2015 1:41 AM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

> On 2015-09-21 5:58 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09/21/2015 01:37 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>>
>>> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific
>>>> routines to allow the Fortran code to wait for a packet to arrive.
>>>> There was also a huge vector of strings with matching integer arrays
>>>> that allowed them to be chained together, and to have types allocated
>>>> to them There were also a large number of "INCLUDE" files with a
>>>> parameters which defined the structure of data stored in the
>>>> character vectors....
>>>>
>>>
>>> PASCAL was first implemented in FORTRAN.
>>>
>>
>> Really? I find it hard to imagine that Wirth would use Fortran for a
>>
> compiler. Never mind his background in structured languages -- writing a
> compiler in Fortran is just much harder. Not as hard as writing one in
> COBOL, but still...
>
>>
>>
> Almost bearable in Ratfor/WATFOR/WATFIV though. Ref: "Elements of
> Programming Style."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfor
>
> --Toby
>
>         paul
>>
>>
>>
>

From simski at dds.nl  Tue Sep 22 01:51:01 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:51:01 +0200
Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs?
In-Reply-To: <275265277.8753474.1442851263126.JavaMail.open-xchange@ptangptang.store>
References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5238@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store>
 <5600268F.1000705@pico-systems.com>
 <275265277.8753474.1442851263126.JavaMail.open-xchange@ptangptang.store>
Message-ID: <5600FA55.5030602@dds.nl>

ist an 6800L and in this machine it is a gold capped case.

On 21-09-15 18:01, Erik Baigar wrote:
>> Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> hat am 21. September 2015 um 17:47
>> geschrieben:
>> Hmm, that sounds like my 1076C. One board had a 68000 that
>> ran the plotter servos, the other was the "plot manager"
>> that had a big RAM buffer and sorted the plot vectors for
>> optimum speed. I think it mostly communicated with the host
>> computer and plotter main board by serial. Both boards had
>> 68K processors.
>
> Well, the 103x really had the 68xx, not the 68xxx. I think it was a 6802, but
> not sure now...
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Sep 22 08:56:26 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:56:26 +0200
Subject: Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5743@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D530B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201253200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF1B2A.3030407@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201455150.16936@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF3F6D.9090005@sydex.com> <55FF4B1A.4030601@compsys.to>
 <55FFCE48.3020200@update.uu.se>
 <aaf51c6f-3dfe-4e8b-b46b-929c1642c03b@classiccmp.org>
 <5600304E.2040905@compsys.to>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D54B0@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5600A15C.1000208@compsys.to>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5743@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <56015E0A.5030603@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-22 06:58, tony duell wrote:
>> HOWEVER, while the PDP-11 is still unable to perform an
>> LLF on an RX50 when an RQDX3 is present, it is possible
>> to perform an LLF on a floppy in an RX33.  Does that still
>> seem compatible with your explanation?
>
> Yes, that confused me too. The RQDX3 is clearly capable of
> LLFing a floppy. So either (unlikely) DEC specifically do
> not allow the right set of commands to LLF an RX50 or
> (more likely) that bit of software you have doesn't do it
> (although others can) possibly so as not to cut into DEC's
> sales of pre-formatted disks.
>
> Sorry I don't know more, the RQDXs are too modern for me.

I don't know for sure, but I really think it's the RQDX3 that explicitly 
refuses to format the RX50.

If I just had an RX33 I could easily test this, as I can easily patch 
the RSX FMT program to treat an RX50 as an RX33...

	Johnny


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 22 09:00:50 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 07:00:50 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>

> Huh, interesting ... I bet that thing is built like an old Steelcase!
> Looks heavy :O

Sean,

It is built pretty well. Think late 1970s early 1980s furniture. It has heavy metal supports w/ casters built in but the "wood" is plywood - mind you not the cheap light stuff from today but certainly not solid oak. It was designed for use by businesses as a cheap and mobile cubicle. You can see an ad for it here: 

http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/878/retro-scan-of-the-week-the-official-ibm-pc-desk

It weighed unpacked about 100 pounds. Once fully loaded (monitor, system, keyboard, manuals, printer and printer paper) though I think it will tip the scale at over 200 pounds easy.

I am not sure how many different desks IBM made. This is the only one I have seen my old IBM catalogs. However, I know there were at least two other IBM Synergetix branded desks: a tri-level and a bi-level desk w/ moving platforms. I own the tri-level desk as well. The bi-level was supposedly for the Atlanta Olympics and is made of plastic.

-Ali


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 22 09:17:43 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:17:43 -0400
Subject: PDP-11 Overlays
In-Reply-To: <5600B21A.1040203@update.uu.se>
References: <560056FB.4040004@compsys.to>
 <1DD5B4F5-9AA4-4669-ADBA-C5864D7C2504@comcast.net>
 <5600B21A.1040203@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <022214CF-473C-4A5C-86F4-090AADD873A0@comcast.net>


> On Sep 21, 2015, at 9:42 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Right. In a way you could say that in RSTS/E you pick the best solution for the job. No need to tie yourself one way or the other. I wonder, did anyone ever write a Unix RTS for RSTS/E? It should be doable...

Not that I know of, but one of my RSTS/E development colleagues used DECUS C to create a csh runtime system -- in other words, make that shell be a command handler on RSTS.  Unfortunately that code has been lost; I'd love to have it.  I'm pretty sure he started with at least a subset port of libc.

	paul


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 22 09:29:14 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:29:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
Message-ID: <20150922142914.E614F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mike Stein

    > I don't think I can scan the print set; IIRC the pages were longer
    > than 14".

How much longer? My A3 scanner will take up to 17". I'd be happy to scan them
for you (and return them afterwards) if you send them to me.

(BTW, this offer is open to everyone/anyone - although if I get 23 sets of
prints, please don't expect instant service! Please contact me first.)

	Noel

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 10:06:59 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:06:59 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small eclipse
In-Reply-To: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com>
References: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>

???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal"  ???

On 9/21/2015 8:39 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> would like to find  blue dg et head  looking terminal to go with  small 
> eclipse 
> this  thing is a beauty and has a tiny side by  side reel   to reel deck
>  
> just  would be nice to have a terminal to  display with it   in the museum.
> drop us a line  offlinst...
> ed sharpe archivist     for   smecc
> 

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 10:41:17 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:41:17 -0400
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
References: <20150922142914.E614F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <414FB24B583E4603A7AF83E93B138C0D@310e2>

I'll certainly keep you in mind, thanks!

Now I just have to find 'em...

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Query for dec teleprinter roms


>    > From: Mike Stein
>
>    > I don't think I can scan the print set; 
> IIRC the pages were longer
>    > than 14".
>
> How much longer? My A3 scanner will take up to 
> 17". I'd be happy to scan them
> for you (and return them afterwards) if you send 
> them to me.
>
> (BTW, this offer is open to everyone/anyone - 
> although if I get 23 sets of
> prints, please don't expect instant service! 
> Please contact me first.)
>
> Noel 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 22 10:45:39 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509220821490.24012@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Ali wrote:
> http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/878/retro-scan-of-the-week-the-official-ibm-pc-desk

I likde those.

I gave three of those to the college for use as classroom machines.

I had gotten them for next to nothing, because they were sized for 5150, 
not 5170.  I made spacers to raise the top panel to fit a thicker machine, 
and put much larger casters on them, for door thresholds, a tiled hallway, 
and the inevitability that they would be rolled over cords.

With a relatively small monitor on top, it provided a comfortaqble podium 
and computer table for teachers to use while lecturing.


A few years later, our department chair at the time (PhD from UCBerkeley) 
came running into the lab, squealing, "WE'RE GETTING SUNS!" WE'RE GETTING 
SUNS!"  She had been informed that at the loading dock, there were three 
"Multimedia Workstations" for us.  NO, we never got any Suns.  The 
"multimedia workstations" turned out to be open 3x6 foot computer desks on 
casters.  THOSE were to be our new classroom computer tables!  too deep, 
too wide, not tall enough to use while standing, . . .  They chucked the 
IBM workstations that I had given them (three just like yours) into 
dumpsters.  Why did I even bother?

One of their new classroom/demo machine tables had big rubber wheels, that 
wouldn't turn easily.  They were almost ready to junk it, because their 
"support staff" didn't know that pneumatic wheels needed to be inflated. 
I pumped them up.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 22 11:08:04 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:08:04 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small eclipse
In-Reply-To: <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>
References: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com> <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>
Message-ID: <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>

Jay Jaeger wrote...
----
???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal"  ???
----

I'd bet that he's referring to the Data General Dasher D200 terminal.

I have one:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082

But perhaps a better picture:
http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
%20front.jpg

The D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
there and seem to go around $200 to $250.

There was another common terminal on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it was
in the Dasher series, but I believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
these as well.
http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg

Lastly, a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY
cool looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a TP1.
http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg

J





From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 22 11:25:26 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 09:25:26 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509220821490.24012@shell.lmi.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509220821490.24012@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <00bd01d0f553$4b2b6450$e1822cf0$@net>

> I gave three of those to the college for use as classroom machines.
> 
> I had gotten them for next to nothing,

Fred,

They are a bit harder to find but still relatively cheap. This is the third
or fourth one I've run across. One, in Orange county, got trashed before I
could get to it. Of the others they were all in other states and this was
the only one willing to try shipping. In fact if anyone is interested there
is one listed here: http://denver.craigslist.org/for/5153027997.html in the
Denver area. Seems a bit worse for wear and is apparently missing the
original keys but that should be an easy fix.

>put much larger casters on them, for door thresholds, a
> tiled hallway, and the inevitability that they would be rolled over
> cords.

That may be a good upgrade. Although, I don't plan moving mine much once I
get it in place.

> 
> With a relatively small monitor on top, it provided a comfortaqble
> podium and computer table for teachers to use while lecturing.

I will admit though it is smaller than I would have thought. The pictures in
the ad makes the cart look bigger. At best it is about waist high. However,
it does fit the 515x series of computers and accessories nicely.

> 
> 
> A few years later, our department chair at the time (PhD from
> UCBerkeley)
> came running into the lab, squealing, "WE'RE GETTING SUNS!" WE'RE
> GETTING
> SUNS!"  She had been informed that at the loading dock, there were
> three
> "Multimedia Workstations" for us.  NO, we never got any Suns.  The
> "multimedia workstations" turned out to be open 3x6 foot computer desks
> on
> casters.  THOSE were to be our new classroom computer tables!  too
> deep,
> too wide, not tall enough to use while standing, . . .  They chucked
> the
> IBM workstations that I had given them (three just like yours) into
> dumpsters.  Why did I even bother?
> 
> One of their new classroom/demo machine tables had big rubber wheels,
> that
> wouldn't turn easily.  They were almost ready to junk it, because their
> "support staff" didn't know that pneumatic wheels needed to be
> inflated.
> I pumped them up.
> 
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 22 11:32:06 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:32:06 +0200
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small eclipse
In-Reply-To: <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>
References: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com> <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>
 <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS3699A4BFEB3B57B195435F86450@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Jay West
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 6:08 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with 
small eclipse

Jay Jaeger wrote...
----
???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal"  ???
----

I'd bet that he's referring to the Data General Dasher D200 terminal.

I have one:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082

But perhaps a better picture:
http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
%20front.jpg

The D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
there and seem to go around $200 to $250.

There was another common terminal on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it was
in the Dasher series, but I believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
these as well.
http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg

Lastly, a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY
cool looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a TP1.
http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg

J

========
Cool pictures Jay!
I have two Dasher 200 terminals, sure would love to get that "5821",
if that is the "name" of it.
I also have that TP1, but it is probably called differently. I am not (yet)
familiar with all the DG things and names. The one that I have does not
have the keyboard. Instead is a solid blue metal plate. Perhaps the
keyboard was an option.
BTW, I heard that in the pedestal (right side) is a microNova (?) as
the printer controller!
<note-myself>Should start working on a web page</note-myself>

The DG chaps left DIGITAL, and was called a "black day" in the history
of |D|I|G|I|T|A|L|. Thy guys that left were not happy as things went,
because their design was scrapped in favor of another design.
It is a pity that DG did not copy the way that DEC makes inter-module
and peripheral connections. DEC uses connectors for everything, DG
uses connectors at best, but most of the time cables are soldered!
Great from a reliability point of view, but a nightmare if you want to
swap a box, for example the 8" floppy  drive, or a communications
line expansion box :-(

Anyway, DG also made nice stuff that looked great even when the
power was off :-)

- Henk 


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 12:24:18 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:24:18 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com>

yes   ET!     the one in the  with the  head in the yoke  although anything 
blue and pretty   would   be better than nothing!  Our Eclipse is not as  
grand as   some photos ,,, and  the  tape  drive is a small  side by  side  
reel unit that  fits in the  single rack  here is  a photo of  ours....  
http://www.smecc.org/data_general.htm
 
had it  for  years     need   manuals  etc and  maybe  some sales  lit.  or 
  scans  of  advertising material to  display with it...   but  yea... it  
cries out to have a terminal  with it!
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 9:08:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

Jay  Jaeger wrote...
----
???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head  looking terminal"  ???
----

I'd bet that he's referring to the  Data General Dasher D200 terminal.

I have  one:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082

But  perhaps a better  picture:
http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
%20front.jpg

The  D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
there  and seem to go around $200 to $250.

There was another common terminal  on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it 
was
in the Dasher series, but I  believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
these as  well.
http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg

Lastly,  a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY
cool  looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a  TP1.
http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg

J






From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 13:11:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:11:00 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>

On 09/21/2015 11:37 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
> If you wanted portability then Fortran or Cobol were pretty much all
> you had. Whilst there may have been C compilers you probably didn't
> have one, certainly in the world of commerce. Which is why our X.25
> code was in Fortran..

There's always PRIMOS, the operating system used on Prime minis being in 
FORTRAN.  Although they later adopted PL/I, both versions of the system 
definition ("include") files were maintained.

Then there are specific dialects of FORTRAN; e.g. LRLTRAN used at 
Lawrence Livermore.  Much of the STAR-OS was written in that--but said 
dialect, in addition to having numerous extensions, also allowed inline 
machine code statements.

National's assembler for Programmable Array Logic (PAL) chips, I 
believe, was distributed as a FORTRAN product.  Several microprocessor 
cross-assemblers were likewise offered by their manufacturers.

In the 1960-70s, you really couldn't have a truly "portable" FORTRAN 
product unless you hewed to USA BASIC FORTRAN IV, which is a very small 
subset of what an F77 programmer might recognize as FORTRAN.  But back 
in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".  FORTRAN II in general was a 
free-for-all, varying between machines from the same manufacturer.
------------------
On a somewhat related note, the earliest published work that I can find 
that describes translation from one computer language to machine code 
involving an intermediate language is the "FOR TRANSIT" for the IBM 650.

A manual scan by Paul Pierce is here:

http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/650man/fortransit.pdf

Basically, FORTRAN source is converted to 650 IT, which is then compiled 
to SOAP, which performs the assembly function.

For those wondering about the notion of an "optimizing" assembler, one 
has to realize that 650 instructions were executed from a drum and were 
of the "1+1" addressing type.  Calculating the optimal address of the 
next instruction was very tedious and a perfect task for automatic 
optimization.

--Chuck

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 13:44:45 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:44:45 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small eclipse
In-Reply-To: <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>
References: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com> <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>
 <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5601A19D.3000306@charter.net>

I have at least one D200 and a couple of 6053 terminals.  One of the
D200 terminals and one of the 6053 terminals (also called a Dasher D2)
each had one key that did not work last I checked.  I would guess that
they suffer from a kind of "key rot" similar to Sol computers.

OK.  NOW I GET IT.  Blue DG "E.T." head looking terminal.  Yeah, that
would probably be a D200.

JRJ

On 9/22/2015 11:08 AM, Jay West wrote:
> Jay Jaeger wrote...
> ----
> ???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal"  ???
> ----
> 
> I'd bet that he's referring to the Data General Dasher D200 terminal.
> 
> I have one:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082
> 
> But perhaps a better picture:
> http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
> %20front.jpg
> 
> The D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
> there and seem to go around $200 to $250.
> 
> There was another common terminal on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it was
> in the Dasher series, but I believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
> these as well.
> http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg
> 
> Lastly, a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY
> cool looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a TP1.
> http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 13:49:38 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:49:38 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com>
References: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5601A2C2.3030705@charter.net>

The one with the head in a yoke in my case is a 6053 aka Dasher D2.  I
have two of them.  Last I knew, both work, aside from one key from the
one nicely wrapped up and sitting in my garage.

Looks like these:  http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg
from Jay West's post.

We could talk.  Contact me off list.

I really gotta put up more pictures.  ;)

JRJ

On 9/22/2015 12:24 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> yes   ET!     the one in the  with the  head in the yoke  although anything 
> blue and pretty   would   be better than nothing!  Our Eclipse is not as  
> grand as   some photos ,,, and  the  tape  drive is a small  side by  side  
> reel unit that  fits in the  single rack  here is  a photo of  ours....  
> http://www.smecc.org/data_general.htm
>  
> had it  for  years     need   manuals  etc and  maybe  some sales  lit.  or 
>   scans  of  advertising material to  display with it...   but  yea... it  
> cries out to have a terminal  with it!
>  
>  
>  
> In a message dated 9/22/2015 9:08:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> jwest at classiccmp.org writes:
> 
> Jay  Jaeger wrote...
> ----
> ???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head  looking terminal"  ???
> ----
> 
> I'd bet that he's referring to the  Data General Dasher D200 terminal.
> 
> I have  one:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082
> 
> But  perhaps a better  picture:
> http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
> %20front.jpg
> 
> The  D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
> there  and seem to go around $200 to $250.
> 
> There was another common terminal  on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it 
> was
> in the Dasher series, but I  believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
> these as  well.
> http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg
> 
> Lastly,  a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY
> cool  looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a  TP1.
> http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From mark at markesystems.com  Tue Sep 22 13:50:35 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:50:35 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442595600.93937.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442595600.93937.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <A773E0969CA34FD69F16F2E341130020@Daedalus>

> Early 3rd generation machines had special instructions to finagle their
> way around self-modifying code:

And some didn't:  The HP 2100 and the PDP-8 (and I think the Honeywell
x16s), instead of a stack, would store the return address of subroutine
calls in the first word of the subroutine; obviously, this made recursive
subroutines impossible without handling a stack manually.

> Few CDCers of the time even knew that the STAR-100 existed.  I remember

Reading up on the early history of CDC, I stumbled across the "Little
Character" - Seymour Cray's six-bit proof of concept for his first computer
designs at CDC.  Apparently, one was actually built, because it's now at the
CHM.  However, I haven't been able to find any significant information about
this on the Web (my Google-fu must be failing me).

Does anyone know where I could find some documentation about this machine?
Performance specs (memory size, speed, etc.) would be nice, but I'd really
like a detailed architecture and instruction set description - you know, in
case someone wanted to make an emulator or something...
~~
Mark Moulding 


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 22 13:59:10 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:59:10 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <5601A2C2.3030705@charter.net>
References: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com> <5601A2C2.3030705@charter.net>
Message-ID: <001301d0f568$c4b08110$4e118330$@classiccmp.org>


Jay Jaeger wrote...
----
The one with the head in a yoke in my case is a 6053 aka Dasher D2.  
----
Interesting. Apparently there are two different ones that look like this -
"head in a yoke".

The ones in the picture that you mentioned being "6053 aka Dasher D2" are
NOT the one that I have.

The one I have also has it's head in a yoke, appears to use the identical
keyboard, but mine the contrast knob is on the  back, not on the front like
in those pictures.

On mine, there is no "blank panel space" to the right of the screen. The
screen takes up the entire horizontal width. Diagonally, the terminal "head"
measures 21 inches so it's slightly unusually large for a terminal. On the
back, under model number it says "5821NT".

So I'm guessing there's a 5821NT and 6053 that look similar but are not the
same. 

I'm just learning a bit about DG gear, I'm sure the experts here will chime
in with info!

Best,

J



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 14:02:26 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:02:26 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <857e.3cab14f6.4332ffc2@aol.com>

that may have been the one  i  had....
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 11:59:29 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:


On  mine, there is no "blank panel space" to the right of the screen.  The
screen takes up the entire horizontal width. Diagonally, the terminal  
"head"
measures 21 inches so it's slightly unusually large for a terminal.  On the
back, under model number it says  "5821NT".

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 13:41:28 2015
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:41:28 -0400
Subject: Are we different?
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF9_KG1d-k532aJAD12-Szo74g1DGvcOBRK5WkL=ddW7Ww@mail.gmail.com>

I was reading an article in Maximum PC, Nov. 2015, p.82 that got my
attention. It said: ?When the lower orders knew their place?? I wonder
if he means users of vintage computers? Just asking!

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 22 14:04:23 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:04:23 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com>
References: <97bf2.5714f8c.4332e8c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401d0f569$7f27f280$7d77d780$@classiccmp.org>

Ed wrote...
----
Our Eclipse is not as  grand as   some photos ,,, and  the  tape  drive is a
small  side by  side  reel unit that  fits in the  single rack  here is  a
photo of  ours....  
http://www.smecc.org/data_general.htm
----
There's nothing non-grand about that. Nice non-blinken Eclipse with 6125
tape drive, and some type of disk unit in the bottom. Nice.
 
And...
----
had it  for  years     need   manuals  etc and  maybe  some sales  lit.  or
scans  of  advertising material to  display with it...   but  yea... it
cries out to have a terminal  with it!
----
No, it cries out to be restored and run rather than just sitting under a
poster. But that's just me.

J



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 14:31:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:31:45 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC
In-Reply-To: <A773E0969CA34FD69F16F2E341130020@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1442595600.93937.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <A773E0969CA34FD69F16F2E341130020@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <5601ACA1.7050702@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 11:50 AM, mark at markesystems.com wrote:

> Does anyone know where I could find some documentation about this
> machine? Performance specs (memory size, speed, etc.) would be nice,
> but I'd really like a detailed architecture and instruction set
> description - you know, in case someone wanted to make an emulator or
> something...

As I recall, the University of Minnesota has a massive CDC archive. 
Have you checked with them?

--Chuck


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 22 14:36:08 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:36:08 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5601ADA8.8040703@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/22/2015 12:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> National's assembler for Programmable Array Logic (PAL) chips, I
> believe, was distributed as a FORTRAN product.  Several microprocessor
> cross-assemblers were likewise offered by their manufacturers.

PL/M in FORTRAN made CP/M possible.
That to me seems more important than Pascal in Fortran.

> --Chuck
Ben.





From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 14:49:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:49:36 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5601ADA8.8040703@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com> <5601ADA8.8040703@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5601B0D0.8090607@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 12:36 PM, ben wrote:

> PL/M in FORTRAN made CP/M possible.
> That to me seems more important than Pascal in Fortran.

I think that's an overstatement.  There were plenty of 8-bit OS-es 
written in assembly.  That Gary did the first version of CP/M using PL/M 
was more a matter of convenience.

In other words, CP/M (if you consider it to be an important innovation) 
would have happened, PL/M or not.  I mean that it's not a lot of 
code--development time would not have been much different.

When DRI tried to foist PL/I on its developer community, that played out 
much less successfully.

--Chuck


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 14:50:43 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:50:43 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>

Pretty  futile to restore  until I have manuals  and a  load  tape if  
needed in front of  me. The  previous  owner  said it  powered up   and did not  
blow  smoke  so that  is a good  thing... but  even still  that   was  many 
many years  ago.
 
Unlike  you Jay  that has a 'mountain'  of  DG stuff in  front of  you  to  
*wicker basket  something together  from... all I have is this one lonely  
rack!
 
I have  no  familiarity  with  DG  op/sys   at  all.... never  ran one ..
 
I did had  an orig  NOVA  ( lo s/n no other    suffix  after it... about 
the  first year I was in the computer  business  sold it to someone...   I  
did  try to track  it  back but they guy  has  scrapped  it...     as  I  
found out  30   years  later.
 
BUT!   I  figure   DG  sould have   some sort of representation here... and 
if it   attracts MORE  DG  so  be it!Least  case it  needs  a terminal to 
display with it and ... yes... A POSTER!
 
This month's  'make  computer  work ' project  is  HP-3000  related. 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 12:04:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

Ed  wrote...
----
Our Eclipse is not as  grand as   some  photos ,,, and  the  tape  drive is 
a
small  side  by  side  reel unit that  fits in the  single rack   here is  a
photo of  ours....   
http://www.smecc.org/data_general.htm
----
There's nothing non-grand  about that. Nice non-blinken Eclipse with 6125
tape drive, and some type of  disk unit in the bottom. Nice.

And...
----
had it  for   years     need   manuals  etc and   maybe  some sales  lit.  
or
scans  of  advertising  material to  display with it...   but  yea... it
cries  out to have a terminal  with it!
----
No, it cries out to be  restored and run rather than just sitting under a
poster. But that's just  me.

J




From mark at markesystems.com  Tue Sep 22 14:53:09 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:53:09 -0700
Subject: Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1442941200.87982.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1442941200.87982.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E8A0792F74954536ABEB6DE33644F22F@Daedalus>

> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific routines

One of my first professional jobs after college was with a company that 
created after-market hardware and software for Apollo workstations.  Despite 
having a good Pascal, I was tasked with (and completed) a port of a 
scientific word processor package (WordMarc), all in Fortran (77, at least). 
Since I ended up being pretty familiar with both the language and 
environment, I used it again to throw together a simple 8080 assembler in 
about a day, too.
~~
Mark Moulding


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 22 15:07:14 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net> <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> what an F77 programmer might recognize as FORTRAN.

Wouldn't an F77 programmer be looking for Fortran, not FORTRAN?

> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor


> FORTRAN II in general was a free-for-all, varying between 
> machines from the same manufacturer.

I hadn't been using FORTRAN long when I was thrown into PDQ FORTRAN.




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 22 15:16:29 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'New' PDP-11 prints
Message-ID: <20150922201629.0311718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So, I've been going through all my PDP-11 prints, looking for ones that aren't
already online (so I can scan/upload them). I have a couple (see later
message), but this is about something else.

In doing the above, I ran across an LSI-11 print set (MP-00706) which is
about 340 pages long, and contains prints for all manner of boards, some of
which do not show up (for reasons I don't understand) when looked for in a
common search engine (Google, to be precise).

I will eventually be adding them to my list of 'online by unfindable print
sets':

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/FMPSOnline.html

(which I have recently updated with more finds falling out of the search of my
collection of prints), but: does anyone know of any other similar large
compendiums of prints online?

In particular, I'm hoping there's a later equivalent (this one's from October
1978) which would show a lot of the later QBUS boards which we don't have
prints for.

As I previously mentioned, I've gone through a number of PDP-11 print sets
which are online (11/05, 11/05S, 11/23, 11/34, etc) in compiling the initial
list, but it seems like there are more out there. Please let me know of any
others you are aware of, so I can trawl them too!

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 15:16:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:16:50 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5601B732.40201@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 01:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> what an F77 programmer might recognize as FORTRAN.
>
> Wouldn't an F77 programmer be looking for Fortran, not FORTRAN?


It could be that "Fortran" was in common use, but I think not officially 
adopted and sanctified by X3J3 until F90.  I'd have to go reading 
through the standards to figure it out--right now, I don't have enough 
aspirin in my medicine cabinet for that.

--Chuck


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 22 15:22:01 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:01 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5601B0D0.8090607@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com> <5601ADA8.8040703@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <5601B0D0.8090607@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5601B869.7020007@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/22/2015 1:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 12:36 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> PL/M in FORTRAN made CP/M possible.
>> That to me seems more important than Pascal in Fortran.
>
> I think that's an overstatement.  There were plenty of 8-bit OS-es
> written in assembly.  That Gary did the first version of CP/M using PL/M
> was more a matter of convenience.

I can't think of OS's off hand but CP/M and Flex.
Mr Gates Basic does not count as OS.

> In other words, CP/M (if you consider it to be an important innovation)
> would have happened, PL/M or not.  I mean that it's not a lot of
> code--development time would not have been much different.

True, but the Cross Assembler still would be FORTRAN.
The only hand coded machine would have been the APPLE I.

> When DRI tried to foist PL/I on its developer community, that played out
> much less successfully.

Only now I have money to play with small computers (FPGA 8 bit design)
not in the late 70's. I suspect the high cost of hardware left little
money left for software was true for every one back then.

> --Chuck
>
>
>


From db at db.net  Tue Sep 22 15:22:37 2015
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:22:37 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
References: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 01:07:14PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > what an F77 programmer might recognize as FORTRAN.
> 
> Wouldn't an F77 programmer be looking for Fortran, not FORTRAN?
> 
> > But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
> > including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor

And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
> 
> 
> > FORTRAN II in general was a free-for-all, varying between 
> > machines from the same manufacturer.
> 
> I hadn't been using FORTRAN long when I was thrown into PDQ FORTRAN.
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 22 15:27:41 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5601B732.40201@sydex.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net> <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <5601B732.40201@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221324470.24012@shell.lmi.net>

>> Wouldn't an F77 programmer be looking for Fortran, not FORTRAN?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> It could be that "Fortran" was in common use, but I think not officially 
> adopted and sanctified by X3J3 until F90.  I'd have to go reading through the 
> standards to figure it out--right now, I don't have enough aspirin in my 
> medicine cabinet for that.

Thanks.
I mixed up 77 and 90.
Although I was assigned to TEACH F77 in the early 1980s, I was no longer 
using FORTRAN.   WHAT?? You can input and output without FORMAT??!?



From rickb at bensene.com  Tue Sep 22 15:35:27 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:27 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4CE1@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55FD2A09.7010501@btinternet.com>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com> <56
 0199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029C3E@mail.bensene.com>

Chuck wrote:
> 
> For those wondering about the notion of an "optimizing" assembler, one
> has to realize that 650 instructions were executed from a drum and were of
> the "1+1" addressing type.  Calculating the optimal address of the next
> instruction was very tedious and a perfect task for automatic optimization.
> 

Many moons ago I did some programming on a process control computer made by 3M.

The machine was a 24-bit word, bit-serial, transistorized machine with drum as main memory.  Each instruction contained both the operand address and the next instruction address (in block/track/sector numbers).  Depending on the timing of the instruction, the optimal address for the operand and next instruction were calculated based on offsets given in the instruction set summary.

There were no index registers on this machine, only a single accumulator register (implemented as a shift-register).   The only way you could do table operations or jumps based on evaluation of an expression was self-modifying code.  However, this was tricky, if you wanted the code to run as efficiently as possible (minimizing waiting for rotation of the drum), you had to do optimization calculations as part of the self-modifying code.       The other tricky part was the you had to be aware of track and sector numbers and properly deal with overflowing, e.g., max sector number was , IIRC, 30(octal) , so if you added 1 to the address, you'd have to clear the sector to zero, and add one to the track address, also being aware that the track number could overflow. 

I learned a lot from that old machine. 

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Sep 22 15:35:24 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:35:24 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
References: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>


> On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>>> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
>>> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
>> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor
> 
> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.

Really?  "citation needed".

	paul



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 22 15:46:15 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:46:15 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
References: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <5601BE17.2080600@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/22/2015 2:22 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:
>
> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.

And where do get said Knowledge?
Ben.

From db at db.net  Tue Sep 22 15:49:52 2015
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:49:52 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
> > On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> ...
> >>> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
> >>> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
> >> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor
> > 
> > And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
> 
> Really?  "citation needed".

http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/Mahoney/expotape.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20030501014008/http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html


> 
> 	paul
> 
> 
> 

Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 15:54:28 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:54:28 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
Message-ID: <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>

Don't you need an IBM phone to go with it?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ali" <cctalk at fahimi.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat 
OT: Freighting Items


> Huh, interesting ... I bet that thing is built 
> like an old Steelcase!
> Looks heavy :O

Sean,

It is built pretty well. Think late 1970s early 
1980s furniture. It has heavy metal supports w/ 
casters built in but the "wood" is plywood - mind 
you not the cheap light stuff from today but 
certainly not solid oak. It was designed for use 
by businesses as a cheap and mobile cubicle. You 
can see an ad for it here:

http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/878/retro-scan-of-the-week-the-official-ibm-pc-desk

It weighed unpacked about 100 pounds. Once fully 
loaded (monitor, system, keyboard, manuals, 
printer and printer paper) though I think it will 
tip the scale at over 200 pounds easy.

I am not sure how many different desks IBM made. 
This is the only one I have seen my old IBM 
catalogs. However, I know there were at least two 
other IBM Synergetix branded desks: a tri-level 
and a bi-level desk w/ moving platforms. I own the 
tri-level desk as well. The bi-level was 
supposedly for the Atlanta Olympics and is made of 
plastic.

-Ali


From isking at uw.edu  Tue Sep 22 15:53:17 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:53:17 -0700
Subject: Some amount of DG goodness
In-Reply-To: <4099DD8C5E324C419C14F4F10BEDAFDC@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1442854800.62252.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <4099DD8C5E324C419C14F4F10BEDAFDC@workshop>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01txNcKuM4RagUqN8oz_KW456Nm=mY4EaVzdVEqf2EEdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nicely done!  I love that printing terminal design.  So retro....

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 9:39 PM, Marc Verdiell <marc.verdiell at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Oh, that blue 1970's psychedelic color! The fast line printer! The vacuum
> column drive (drool)! And it is alive! Congratulations!
> Marc
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 16:22:16 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:22:16 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <5601C688.4090104@charter.net>

Reading the two referenced links leads me to a different conclusion:
FORTRAN would not do the job at all, so he started from scratch - almost
immediately.

"Anyway, it took him about a day to realize that he didn't want to do a
Fortran compiler at all. So he did this very simple language called B
and got it going on the PDP-7."

"After a rapidly scuttled attempt at Fortran, he created instead a
language of his own"

(and "rapidly scuttled seems to have been a day).

So I don't agree with the assertion that "'C' started out as a Fortran
compiler".  Not at all.

JRJ

On 9/22/2015 3:49 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN, 
>>>>> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
>>>> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor
>>>
>>> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
>>
>> Really?  "citation needed".
> 
> http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/Mahoney/expotape.htm
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20030501014008/http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html
> 
> 
>>
>> 	paul
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Diane
> 

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 22 16:22:40 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:40 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
Message-ID: <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>

> Don't you need an IBM phone to go with it?


Mike,

Please do explain...



From thebri at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 16:21:33 2015
From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:21:33 -0400
Subject: LA120 ROM & new member intro
Message-ID: <CAPP7abHxgQC-+xaTqgg=wteficL1ttDyO4OGy5QS82HvcJunPg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi. The original ROM request showed up just before I started receiving
messages this morning, and I only got the tail end of the chatter.  Instead
of tacking a reply on to that, I thought I'd just start a new thread and
introduce myself at the same time.

Here's what I think is 23-038e4-00 from an LA120 (with a bad print head,
and dead pin drivers as well).  I couldn't find anything to compare it
against, and the adapter is new.  So it might be gibberish.  I did see, at
least, [A-Z] in the dump, so maybe it's good.

As for the introduction, I started life on the Apple II in fourth grade or
thereabouts, finally got a Commodore 128, then an Amiga, then jumped over
to UNIX (BSD mostly) and stuck there for years doing software.  After
funding stopped being an issue, I decided to get back to more interesting
and/or simple hardware, and electronics in general.  I seem to have
collected a rather complete HP86/87, under the illusion of using it for an
GPIB controller.  I'm now wrestling with an apparently dead PSU on a
MicroPDP (actually, I just now gave up on it), and am slowly fixing up a
PDP-8/a.  It has two CPU boards, one of which ignores the HALT
instruction.  From the schematics, I think it's one faulty 74ls chip, but I
haven't tried fixing it -- the machine has been down for cleaning/painting
for many months.  I just got it put back together this weekend.  I also
swapped out the fans for modern (quiet) 12v fans (driven off an isolated
power supply powered by the original 120 vac fan supply)...and now hear the
transformer buzzing away.  Win some, lose some.  Sigh.  Congrats on making
it to the end!

Cheers!

b

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 16:58:11 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:58:11 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small eclipse
In-Reply-To: <5601A19D.3000306@charter.net>
References: <2f9159.5c4ac07f.43320b34@aol.com> <56016E93.7090507@charter.net>
 <001901d0f550$dd450060$97cf0120$@classiccmp.org>
 <5601A19D.3000306@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf9JyWWvgd+=G_xrC8JiZckY-ZGOVbmgFo-mDTSB9xEzA@mail.gmail.com>

I have some nice DGterminal brochures, always wanted to see the real thing
in person

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> I have at least one D200 and a couple of 6053 terminals.  One of the
> D200 terminals and one of the 6053 terminals (also called a Dasher D2)
> each had one key that did not work last I checked.  I would guess that
> they suffer from a kind of "key rot" similar to Sol computers.
>
> OK.  NOW I GET IT.  Blue DG "E.T." head looking terminal.  Yeah, that
> would probably be a D200.
>
> JRJ
>
> On 9/22/2015 11:08 AM, Jay West wrote:
> > Jay Jaeger wrote...
> > ----
> > ???  What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal"  ???
> > ----
> >
> > I'd bet that he's referring to the Data General Dasher D200 terminal.
> >
> > I have one:
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082
> >
> > But perhaps a better picture:
> >
> http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200
> > %20front.jpg
> >
> > The D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently
> > there and seem to go around $200 to $250.
> >
> > There was another common terminal on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it
> was
> > in the Dasher series, but I believe it was called a "5821". I have one of
> > these as well.
> > http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg
> >
> > Lastly, a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is
> VERY
> > cool looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a TP1.
> > http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 17:12:26 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:12:26 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
Message-ID: <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>

As mentioned previously IBM made (or put their
name on) all sorts of things, including several
telephones; I've got one somewhere but like much 
of my junk no idea where at the moment.

I've also still got my original THINK sign but
you'd have to pry that from my cold dead fingers;
has anyone ever made a replica? Shouldn't be too
hard.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ali" <cctalk at fahimi.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat
OT: Freighting Items


>> Don't you need an IBM phone to go with it?
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Please do explain...
>
>


From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 17:17:45 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:17:45 -0500
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net> <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net> <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEuPVgXByVTZZOjLBmyxmCSJOrfOLqLhv3F-NfjaXeyHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've also still got my original THINK sign but
> you'd have to pry that from my cold dead fingers;
> has anyone ever made a replica? Shouldn't be too
> hard.

(What I assume are) NOS ones appear on ebay pretty regularly.  Not
always cheap and not always in English, but they're out there.

j

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 22 17:25:18 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:25:18 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>

Ed wrote...
----
Pretty  futile to restore  until I have manuals  and a  load  tape if
needed in front of  me. 
----
Not futile at all. Taking it apart, cleaning it up, replacing anything
obviously bad, checking out the power supply.... all things you can likely
do without a manual. You could go a little further than that just by asking
a few questions here; folks are glad to help! Think of all the great stuff
you'd learn along the way!! You'd find manuals and tapes at some point I'm
sure!
 
----
Unlike  you Jay  that has a 'mountain'  of  DG stuff in  front of  you  to
*wicker basket  something together  from... all I have is this one lonely
rack!
----
Not sure what you're driving at there, but when I'm done... all I will have
is one lonely rack :) Nothing wrong with that!
Not to mention, there's the "classiccmp law of attraction". Basically if you
get just part of a machine, the rest will suddenly start appearing :)

----
BUT!   I  figure   DG  sould have   some sort of representation here... and
if it   attracts MORE  DG  so  be it!Least  case it  needs  a terminal to
display with it and ... yes... A POSTER!
----
Awesome. What minicomputer systems do you have on public display besides the
DG? I'm glad to see more DG representation of course :)

----
This month's  'make  computer  work ' project  is  HP-3000  related. 
----
I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking 3K-related?

J
 
 
 




From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 17:29:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:29:45 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029C3E@mail.bensene.com>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <C369B29B-2490-432B-851B-630669364729@comcast.net>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com> <56
 0199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029C3E@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <5601D659.5080106@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 01:35 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:

> There were no index registers on this machine, only a single
> accumulator register (implemented as a shift-register).

Not that uncommon, really. It was only Model II of the 1620 that had 
index registers; the CADET didn't.  No accumulator either--just a simple 
2-address architecture.    It did have (optional) indirect addressing, 
however, which was a godsend if you had it.  Otherwise, you really did 
have to plug instructions.

But even the 650 had a TLU instruction...

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 22 17:34:02 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEuPVgXByVTZZOjLBmyxmCSJOrfOLqLhv3F-NfjaXeyHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net> <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net> <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
 <CAEfH1SEuPVgXByVTZZOjLBmyxmCSJOrfOLqLhv3F-NfjaXeyHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221532200.24012@shell.lmi.net>

> I've also still got my original THINK sign but
> you'd have to pry that from my cold dead fingers;
> has anyone ever made a replica? Shouldn't be too
> hard.

Since these desks did not have one originally, there is no need for 
authenticitiy.  Any engraving shop should be able to make you a small 
brass plaque.




From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 17:35:47 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:35:47 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5601B869.7020007@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55FD78FE.4060309@btinternet.com>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com> <5601ADA8.8040703@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <5601B0D0.8090607@sydex.com> <5601B869.7020007@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5601D7C3.9020706@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 01:22 PM, ben wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 1:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> I can't think of OS's off hand but CP/M and Flex. Mr Gates Basic does
> not count as OS.

There were many others.  In particular, I did a lot of work on DX-85M.

> True, but the Cross Assembler still would be FORTRAN. The only hand
> coded machine would have been the APPLE I.

There were plenty of assemblers around, some even native.  Heck, I wrote
both an 8008 and an 8080 cross-assembler (in FORTRAN, naturally).  It's
not rocket science.  One friend of mine wrote his assembler as macros 
for a mainframe assembler.  That, at once, gave him all of the advanced 
facilities of the host assembler.  Wish I'd thought of that...

> Only now I have money to play with small computers (FPGA 8 bit
> design) not in the late 70's. I suspect the high cost of hardware
> left little money left for software was true for every one back
> then.

Do you have any idea of the software offerings from, say, Intel?  They 
were considerable.

--Chuck

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Tue Sep 22 18:26:52 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:26:52 -0500
Subject: Core memory and OS/8
Message-ID: <000E77D88DCE4FDA94A8C648CADFE4EE@CharlesHPLaptop>

One of the reasons I bought Vince's 32K SRAM board for my 8/A is because I 
was having flakiness with my "real" core boards (two 16K and one 8K).

Now that OS/8 is running again, and my RL8A and two RL02's are as debugged 
as they're going to get, I decided to experiment with the old core.
Put them back in the chassis and... the two 16K boards are now working 
perfectly. I ran it for two long passes with DHKMAD (checkerboard 
diagnostic) with no errors!

What's strange, though, is that OS/8 won't boot unless both 16K boards are 
in the backplane. Then it does boot and a MEM shows "32K MEMORY!" as 
expected.
Won't boot with 16K or 24K of boards, either.

I thought that only 12K was mandatory (at least that's what the Device 
Extensions manual says for an RL01). Or is that something that's set up 
during BUILD?... I don't see anything in the OS/8 manual and I know I had 
OS/8 running with 16K and 24K previously.

-Charles



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 18:30:15 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:30:15 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221324470.24012@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150916210629.42BC518C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCFRbq8oqJR6c5tNhxZkLmUVCrSwSwfZwiMCgqaV3iTTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D4F9F@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CAMTenCFezNPqAnZiHNt7KfJtqYXD_VAMcfAQCrfskNLsi-4RSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PQYZH370XK009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie> <01PQZ8H0V2BI009QQ3@beyondthepale.ie>
 <55FEF0F5.6080204@sydex.com> <55FFCCD9.60303@update.uu.se>
 <560031C7.9030305@sydex.com>
 <201509211849.OAA22334@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net> <5601B732.40201@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221324470.24012@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5601E487.1090801@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 01:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> I mixed up 77 and 90. Although I was assigned to TEACH F77 in the
> early 1980s, I was no longer using FORTRAN.   WHAT?? You can input
> and output without FORMAT??!?

You'd probably enjoy F90 even less.

--Chuck




From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 18:50:37 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:50:37 -0500
Subject: Are we different?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF9_KG1d-k532aJAD12-Szo74g1DGvcOBRK5WkL=ddW7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9_KG1d-k532aJAD12-Szo74g1DGvcOBRK5WkL=ddW7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150922235037.GE94586@gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Murray McCullough wrote:
> I was reading an article in Maximum PC, Nov. 2015, p.82 that got my
> attention. It said: ?When the lower orders knew their place?? I wonder
> if he means users of vintage computers? Just asking!

I wouldn't conclude that, but then I have no idea what the context is.

> 
> Happy computing.
> 
> Murray  :)

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From rick at rickmurphy.net  Tue Sep 22 19:42:38 2015
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:42:38 -0400
Subject: Core memory and OS/8
In-Reply-To: <000E77D88DCE4FDA94A8C648CADFE4EE@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <000E77D88DCE4FDA94A8C648CADFE4EE@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <201509230042.t8N0geYU022040@rickmurphy.net>

At 07:26 PM 9/22/2015, Charles wrote:
>One of the reasons I bought Vince's 32K SRAM board for my 8/A is 
>because I was having flakiness with my "real" core boards (two 16K and 
>one 8K).
>
>Now that OS/8 is running again, and my RL8A and two RL02's are as 
>debugged as they're going to get, I decided to experiment with the old 
>core.
>Put them back in the chassis and... the two 16K boards are now working 
>perfectly. I ran it for two long passes with DHKMAD (checkerboard 
>diagnostic) with no errors!
>
>What's strange, though, is that OS/8 won't boot unless both 16K boards 
>are in the backplane. Then it does boot and a MEM shows "32K MEMORY!" 
>as expected.
>Won't boot with 16K or 24K of boards, either.

That's strange.

>I thought that only 12K was mandatory (at least that's what the Device 
>Extensions manual says for an RL01). Or is that something that's set 
>up during BUILD?... I don't see anything in the OS/8 manual and I know 
>I had OS/8 running with 16K and 24K previously.

8K is enough to boot with a one-page system handler (and for a TD8E 
with the MR8E ROM). Otherwise, 12K is enough.
Maybe something is loading during boot that's breaking things - try 
"SET SYS NO INIT" before you yank the memory.

What happens when you try to boot with less memory?

BUILD does have the CORE command that limits how much memory OS/8 uses, 
but that limits the amount of memory used, not how much it requires. 
"CORE 0" says to use all available memory.
     -Rick


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 19:51:09 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:51:09 -0700
Subject: Are we different?
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF9_KG1d-k532aJAD12-Szo74g1DGvcOBRK5WkL=ddW7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF9_KG1d-k532aJAD12-Szo74g1DGvcOBRK5WkL=ddW7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55E52672-3033-49CB-BE68-19E32490E446@gmail.com>

wat?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 22, 2015, at 11:41, Murray McCullough <c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I was reading an article in Maximum PC, Nov. 2015, p.82 that got my
> attention. It said: ?When the lower orders knew their place?? I wonder
> if he means users of vintage computers? Just asking!
> 
> Happy computing.
> 
> Murray  :)

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Tue Sep 22 20:03:21 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:03:21 -0500
Subject: Core memory and OS/8
Message-ID: <1C6965A3498F4D7195EFCE85862D23E9@CharlesHPLaptop>

<EmilyLitella> Never Mind! </EmilyLitella>

I put the 32K SRAM board back in with the top four fields disabled. Sure 
enough, OS/8 booted and MEM showed 16K, which confirms my recollection that 
it will work with less than 32K.

Then my lights came on - I had made an elementary error... I had selected 
the wrong MM8-AB 16K core board, the one that was jumpered for field 4-7.
So there wasn't any core in fields 0-3 which will "break" OS/8.

When I fired up the system with only the board jumpered for the LOW 16K 
core, everything works as usual.
Sorry for the bandwidth...

-Charles


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Sep 22 20:23:24 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:23:24 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
References: <560055BA.5060505@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509211217200.19534@shell.lmi.net>
 <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com> <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5601FF0C.5030103@pico-systems.com>

On 09/22/2015 03:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>>> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of FORTRAN,
>>>> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
>>> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor
>> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
> Really?  "citation needed".
>
I also find this hard to believe.  C is a very different 
language structure than FORTRAN.
I checked out a Bell Unix distro on the PDP-11 and the 
FORTRAN compiler that came with it.
it had several big errors in implementing the standard 
FORTRAN language, and also printing out floating point 
numbers was laughably slow.  We decided to go with RSX-11M 
instead.  That experience put me off Unix-derived systems 
for years.  it made me think that that version of FORTRAN 
was not likely to have ever been used very much.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Sep 22 20:31:29 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:31:29 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>

On 09/22/2015 03:49 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>
>>> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
>> Really?  "citation needed".
> http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/Mahoney/expotape.htm
>
>
OK, Paul needed to read more closely.  (Think I got the 
attribution right...)
This is Dennis Ritchie speaking about Ken Thompson:

    Anyway, it took him about a day to realize that he
    didn't want to do a Fortran compiler at all. So he did
    this very simple language called B and got it going on
    the PDP-7.


So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken 
started thinking about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY 
took off in a different direction.   By that time (1969 or 
so) FORTRAN was a really old language, and considered way 
out of date by most universities' Comp Sci departments.

Jon

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 20:37:06 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:37:06 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <11251.5fb86a81.43335c42@aol.com>

One  thing  first  look at this  and    need  more  info on it and  docs.
 
wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  tube   type  digital logic  trainer  
kit.  comes in a   wonderful  fitted  case  with all kinds of    plugable  
units
see url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 

 
current  project    3000/37 and micro 3000
Looking for  more   3000 stuff  both small  and   large  ( cx, ser I,I ser 
III  etc.)
Pulled them all over to the media  center  where I could spread  out and  
work on them.
 
ok here is  some of   our  stuff.
we are not  exclusively a computer museum  but  we   do  have  some <grin!>
 
 
Other  areas   are 
 scientific instruments,   
radar  and  radar countermeasures  adn other electronic  warefare 
radio and TV  broadcasting,
  Rural Electrification,  
Tools of the journalist, 
  office automation  1800's   forward.
 Telecommunications  for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing
and on and  on 
 
Some  Minis
 
H 11 ( LSI-11  by  DEC  but   in   Heath    packaging )
DEC PDP8 classsic sn/18
HP-2116b
HP-2000 access system (has  2  2100 in it)
HP3000/37  ( when it is in the building) 
eclipse s20
 
need to  clean and  wedge in
Dec  PDP 11/20
DEC PDP-8 S
NEXT  cube, printer, monitor and all next-y  related  chachakies
 
who know  what are in the other  buildings
 
Micros...
 
Intel  Intellect 8   
Altairs
Imsais
many  Comidore things
many R.S.
Heath h-8
Heath H-89
several osbornes
apples
sun-sparc
lots of  single board  computers
cobalt cube
next  cube with all  accs
a bunch of other ss
 
many many hp desktops and  pcs
love the prtototype iHP Integral we  have  too
 
  
 
 
trainers and  digital  labs
 
IBM  really  early  with  tube  type plugable  units
 
DEC lab
Fabritec  lab 
 
 wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  comes in  a  wonderful  fitted  case  
with all kinds of    plugable  units
see url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

Awesome.  What minicomputer systems do you have on public display besides 
the
DG? I'm  glad to see more DG representation of course :)

----
This  month's  'make  computer  work ' project  is   HP-3000  related. 
----
I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking  3K-related?


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 20:49:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:49:53 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <56020541.90901@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 06:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started
> thinking about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a
> different direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really
> old language, and considered way out of date by most universities'
> Comp Sci departments.

Which is why C started out with a COMPLEX data type...NOT.  FORTRAN can 
run on a much wider variety of machines than can C.

C was nothing more than a bare step up from assembly.

--Chuck






From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 21:00:44 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:00:44 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>

So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
publish it on a web page for public lookup.

Below is my first cut at a database design for it.  I'd be happy for
comments and suggestions, to the list or directly.  Note, however, that
I don't expect to do this to the same level of complexity and
completeness that one might if they were the library of congress, a
major university library, etc.  So, some suggestions to generalize may
be quietly ignored, even if they would in principle, be the "right
thing" according to some criteria or other.

This would be used for manuals, per se, print sets, etc.  Quite possibly
for books as well.

What follows amounts to a data dictionary:

Table MANUAL:

  This is the primary table of manuals.  Many of the fields will be
  available for string and/or pull down search, as appropriate.

Machine_MFG:  VARCHAR(32)
  The manufacturer of the machine(s) to which the manual applies
  Part of unique key.
  Pull down search.

Manual_Number: VARCHAR(40)
  The manual number, including version strings, etc.
  In some cases, this may be an SBN or ISBN.
  Part of unique key
  String search.

Artifact_ID: CHAR(16) [format/type still under consideration]
  The local identifier for the manual/artifact.
  Part of unique key.
  Will be generated if none is entered during creation/update.
  (Required because I may have more than one copy of a given manual).

Publisher: VARCHAR(32)
  The publisher of the manual.  (Typically will be the same as the
  Machine MFG - but not necessarily always)
  May not be NULL.

Type: VARCHAR(16)
  Manual, Drawing (== printset, schematic, etc.), Book, ...
  Pull down search.

Original: BOOLEAN
  True if an original manual.  False if a copy ("Xerox").

Missing: BOOLEAN
  True if the manual is missing (i.e., is not where it is supposed to
be, and the actual location is not known).

Title: VARCHAR(255)
  The title of the manual, including any subtitles.
  Suggest "; " to separate multiple titles/subtitles
  May not be NULL
  String search.

Incomplete: CHAR(1)
  Indicates if the manual is not a complete copy.
  NULL indicates the copy is complete.

Year: DATE
  The year the manual was published / printed / copyrighted.
  May be NULL, signifying the date is unknown / not entered.

Location: VARCHAR(20)
  The general location of the manual in my inventory
  May be NULL, signifying the manual is not in my inventory.

Cabinet: CHAR(2)
  The ID of the cabinet or box in which the manual is stored, if any.
  May be NULL, even if the manual is in my inventory.
  May not be NULL if Drawer is not NULL.

Drawer: CHAR(2)
  The ID of the drawer of the cabinet in which the manual is stored,
  if any.  May be NULL.

Inventory_Date:  DATE
  The date that the manual was last inventoried.

Filename: VARCHAR(255)
  The name of the file which is an image of the manual in my local
  file storage.

OnlineLocation: VARCHAR(255)
  URL of the manual located online (e.g., the bitsavers URL)
  May be NULL.  This does NOT mean that the manual is not online.
  Of course, this field can become out of date.

OnlineVersion: CHAR(1)
  = means that the online manual is the same version as this one
  > means that there is no equal version online, but there is a
    later version
  < means there is no equal or later version online, but there is an
    earlier version.

OnlineMD5: CHAR(32)
  MD5 hash of online manual - used to check for moved manuals.  ;)


TABLE MachineManual

This table cross references manuals to the machine(s) to which they
apply.  This list will NOT be guaranteed to be complete.  During inquiry
and update, this will be a list of machines with a separator character
in between which will not be allowed in Machine_MFG.  During an update,
the entire list will be replaced with the first one being flagged as the
primary machine.

MachineMFG:  (See above).  Part of the unique key for this table.
Manual_Number: (See above)  Part of the unique key for this table.
Machine:  VARCHAR(16)
   One of the machine(s) to which this manual applies.
   Part of the unique key for this table.
Primary_Machine: BOOLEAN
   When true, indicates that this machine should be listed first
   in the list of applicable machines.  For a peripheral, this will
   typically be the machine for which the peripheral was originally
   designed.

So a list of machines for an RX01 manual might be:
   PDP-11, RX01, RX01, VAX-11


TABLE Machines

A lookup table of valid machines.  Only column is Machine (See above).
Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate that an update
where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be greeted with
some kind of confirmation panel.


TABLE Manufacturers

A lookup table of valid manufacturers.  Only column is Machine_MFG
(See above).  Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate
that an update where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be
greeted with some kind of confirmation panel.


Table Types

A lookup table of valid Types. Only column is Type (See above)

TABLE:  LastGeneratedArtifact

The last generated artifact ID - used to assign new artifact numbers
when one is not manually entered.  Algorithm TBD.  One column:
Artifact_ID (See above)


TABLE: Locations

A table of valid locations (e.g. Basement, Garage, STORAGE, Unknown, etc.)
Used for convenience during data entry.


(Once this one is done and running (at least locally), the next one is
probably media (tapes, floppies, etc.) which is not too bad, and then
machines, cards and parts, which is more complicated for lots of reasons).

After those are done (hopefully by the end of the year - I am retired
and this will be my primary focus for a while) comes the design for a
database for SMS cards and for the IBM 1410 use of SMS cards.


JRJ










From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 21:03:11 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:03:11 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <11251.5fb86a81.43335c42@aol.com>
References: <11251.5fb86a81.43335c42@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5602085F.5000709@charter.net>

Hmmm.  I am getting a DNS miss on www.smecc.org - was not getting that
earlier today.

JRJ

On 9/22/2015 8:37 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> One  thing  first  look at this  and    need  more  info on it and  docs.
>  
> wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  tube   type  digital logic  trainer  
> kit.  comes in a   wonderful  fitted  case  with all kinds of    plugable  
> units
> see url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
> 
>  
> current  project    3000/37 and micro 3000
> Looking for  more   3000 stuff  both small  and   large  ( cx, ser I,I ser 
> III  etc.)
> Pulled them all over to the media  center  where I could spread  out and  
> work on them.
>  
> ok here is  some of   our  stuff.
> we are not  exclusively a computer museum  but  we   do  have  some <grin!>
>  
>  
> Other  areas   are 
>  scientific instruments,   
> radar  and  radar countermeasures  adn other electronic  warefare 
> radio and TV  broadcasting,
>   Rural Electrification,  
> Tools of the journalist, 
>   office automation  1800's   forward.
>  Telecommunications  for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing
> and on and  on 
>  
> Some  Minis
>  
> H 11 ( LSI-11  by  DEC  but   in   Heath    packaging )
> DEC PDP8 classsic sn/18
> HP-2116b
> HP-2000 access system (has  2  2100 in it)
> HP3000/37  ( when it is in the building) 
> eclipse s20
>  
> need to  clean and  wedge in
> Dec  PDP 11/20
> DEC PDP-8 S
> NEXT  cube, printer, monitor and all next-y  related  chachakies
>  
> who know  what are in the other  buildings
>  
> Micros...
>  
> Intel  Intellect 8   
> Altairs
> Imsais
> many  Comidore things
> many R.S.
> Heath h-8
> Heath H-89
> several osbornes
> apples
> sun-sparc
> lots of  single board  computers
> cobalt cube
> next  cube with all  accs
> a bunch of other ss
>  
> many many hp desktops and  pcs
> love the prtototype iHP Integral we  have  too
>  
>   
>  
>  
> trainers and  digital  labs
>  
> IBM  really  early  with  tube  type plugable  units
>  
> DEC lab
> Fabritec  lab 
>  
>  wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  comes in  a  wonderful  fitted  case  
> with all kinds of    plugable  units
> see url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
> jwest at classiccmp.org writes:
> 
> Awesome.  What minicomputer systems do you have on public display besides 
> the
> DG? I'm  glad to see more DG representation of course :)
> 
> ----
> This  month's  'make  computer  work ' project  is   HP-3000  related. 
> ----
> I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking  3K-related?
> 
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 21:11:29 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:11:29 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56020541.90901@sydex.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56020A51.30403@charter.net>

On 9/22/2015 8:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 06:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started
>> thinking about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a
>> different direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really
>> old language, and considered way out of date by most universities'
>> Comp Sci departments.
> 
> Which is why C started out with a COMPLEX data type...NOT.  FORTRAN can
> run on a much wider variety of machines than can C.
> 
> C was nothing more than a bare step up from assembly.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

There is a big difference between "can run" and "does run".  I'd wager
that C *can* run on anything one could use for any reasonably useful
FORTRAN (thus excluding things like the IBM 1410 card oriented FORTRAN
compiler, though I am aware of an effort to develop a small C subset
compiler for the 1401).

The assertion that C was "nothing more than a bare step up from
assembly" is just that.  An assertion.  One with which I disagree pretty
firmly.

Old-time C can pretty easily handle a COMPLEX data type by defining a
simple struct containing two reals (or even ints, I suppose, if one
wants to constrain it that way), and a simple set of operations which
are passed the address of one or more such structs, returning a real/int
or the address of such a struct (for functions).  I would expect lots of
people did that sort of thing.  (Which also goes to show that C is a LOT
more than just a "bare step up from assembly").

JRJ

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Sep 22 21:25:58 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:25:58 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 07:11 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> There is a big difference between "can run" and "does run".  I'd
> wager that C *can* run on anything one could use for any reasonably
> useful FORTRAN (thus excluding things like the IBM 1410 card oriented
> FORTRAN compiler, though I am aware of an effort to develop a small C
> subset compiler for the 1401).
>
> The assertion that C was "nothing more than a bare step up from
> assembly" is just that.  An assertion.  One with which I disagree
> pretty firmly.

We've been here before and I don't care to chew already masticated cud. 
  Suffice it to say, that I've never seen a C for a non-binary, 
variable-word-length machine using 6-bit characters.  I've seen plenty 
of FORTRANs for such an architecture, however.

--Chuck


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Sep 22 22:12:34 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:12:34 -0700
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
Message-ID: <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>

My recommendation would be to ensure compatibility with the MARC database format.  Even if you don't include all the fields, the fields you do have should be compatible.  If you look you should find Open Source projects that are MARC compatible.  It's been several years since I looked into this, and then I was populating a MARC database from a massive Excel spreadsheet.

Zane



On Sep 22, 2015, at 7:00 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
> publish it on a web page for public lookup.
> 
> Below is my first cut at a database design for it.  I'd be happy for
> comments and suggestions, to the list or directly.  Note, however, that
> I don't expect to do this to the same level of complexity and
> completeness that one might if they were the library of congress, a
> major university library, etc.  So, some suggestions to generalize may
> be quietly ignored, even if they would in principle, be the "right
> thing" according to some criteria or other.
> 
> This would be used for manuals, per se, print sets, etc.  Quite possibly
> for books as well.
> 
> What follows amounts to a data dictionary:
> 
> Table MANUAL:
> 
>  This is the primary table of manuals.  Many of the fields will be
>  available for string and/or pull down search, as appropriate.
> 
> Machine_MFG:  VARCHAR(32)
>  The manufacturer of the machine(s) to which the manual applies
>  Part of unique key.
>  Pull down search.
> 
> Manual_Number: VARCHAR(40)
>  The manual number, including version strings, etc.
>  In some cases, this may be an SBN or ISBN.
>  Part of unique key
>  String search.
> 
> Artifact_ID: CHAR(16) [format/type still under consideration]
>  The local identifier for the manual/artifact.
>  Part of unique key.
>  Will be generated if none is entered during creation/update.
>  (Required because I may have more than one copy of a given manual).
> 
> Publisher: VARCHAR(32)
>  The publisher of the manual.  (Typically will be the same as the
>  Machine MFG - but not necessarily always)
>  May not be NULL.
> 
> Type: VARCHAR(16)
>  Manual, Drawing (== printset, schematic, etc.), Book, ...
>  Pull down search.
> 
> Original: BOOLEAN
>  True if an original manual.  False if a copy ("Xerox").
> 
> Missing: BOOLEAN
>  True if the manual is missing (i.e., is not where it is supposed to
> be, and the actual location is not known).
> 
> Title: VARCHAR(255)
>  The title of the manual, including any subtitles.
>  Suggest "; " to separate multiple titles/subtitles
>  May not be NULL
>  String search.
> 
> Incomplete: CHAR(1)
>  Indicates if the manual is not a complete copy.
>  NULL indicates the copy is complete.
> 
> Year: DATE
>  The year the manual was published / printed / copyrighted.
>  May be NULL, signifying the date is unknown / not entered.
> 
> Location: VARCHAR(20)
>  The general location of the manual in my inventory
>  May be NULL, signifying the manual is not in my inventory.
> 
> Cabinet: CHAR(2)
>  The ID of the cabinet or box in which the manual is stored, if any.
>  May be NULL, even if the manual is in my inventory.
>  May not be NULL if Drawer is not NULL.
> 
> Drawer: CHAR(2)
>  The ID of the drawer of the cabinet in which the manual is stored,
>  if any.  May be NULL.
> 
> Inventory_Date:  DATE
>  The date that the manual was last inventoried.
> 
> Filename: VARCHAR(255)
>  The name of the file which is an image of the manual in my local
>  file storage.
> 
> OnlineLocation: VARCHAR(255)
>  URL of the manual located online (e.g., the bitsavers URL)
>  May be NULL.  This does NOT mean that the manual is not online.
>  Of course, this field can become out of date.
> 
> OnlineVersion: CHAR(1)
>  = means that the online manual is the same version as this one
>> means that there is no equal version online, but there is a
>    later version
>  < means there is no equal or later version online, but there is an
>    earlier version.
> 
> OnlineMD5: CHAR(32)
>  MD5 hash of online manual - used to check for moved manuals.  ;)
> 
> 
> TABLE MachineManual
> 
> This table cross references manuals to the machine(s) to which they
> apply.  This list will NOT be guaranteed to be complete.  During inquiry
> and update, this will be a list of machines with a separator character
> in between which will not be allowed in Machine_MFG.  During an update,
> the entire list will be replaced with the first one being flagged as the
> primary machine.
> 
> MachineMFG:  (See above).  Part of the unique key for this table.
> Manual_Number: (See above)  Part of the unique key for this table.
> Machine:  VARCHAR(16)
>   One of the machine(s) to which this manual applies.
>   Part of the unique key for this table.
> Primary_Machine: BOOLEAN
>   When true, indicates that this machine should be listed first
>   in the list of applicable machines.  For a peripheral, this will
>   typically be the machine for which the peripheral was originally
>   designed.
> 
> So a list of machines for an RX01 manual might be:
>   PDP-11, RX01, RX01, VAX-11
> 
> 
> TABLE Machines
> 
> A lookup table of valid machines.  Only column is Machine (See above).
> Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate that an update
> where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be greeted with
> some kind of confirmation panel.
> 
> 
> TABLE Manufacturers
> 
> A lookup table of valid manufacturers.  Only column is Machine_MFG
> (See above).  Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate
> that an update where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be
> greeted with some kind of confirmation panel.
> 
> 
> Table Types
> 
> A lookup table of valid Types. Only column is Type (See above)
> 
> TABLE:  LastGeneratedArtifact
> 
> The last generated artifact ID - used to assign new artifact numbers
> when one is not manually entered.  Algorithm TBD.  One column:
> Artifact_ID (See above)
> 
> 
> TABLE: Locations
> 
> A table of valid locations (e.g. Basement, Garage, STORAGE, Unknown, etc.)
> Used for convenience during data entry.
> 
> 
> (Once this one is done and running (at least locally), the next one is
> probably media (tapes, floppies, etc.) which is not too bad, and then
> machines, cards and parts, which is more complicated for lots of reasons).
> 
> After those are done (hopefully by the end of the year - I am retired
> and this will be my primary focus for a while) comes the design for a
> database for SMS cards and for the IBM 1410 use of SMS cards.
> 
> 
> JRJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Tue Sep 22 22:16:16 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:16:16 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
 <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
Message-ID: <012a01d0f5ae$36a96490$a3fc2db0$@net>

> As mentioned previously IBM made (or put their name on) all sorts of
> things, including several telephones; I've got one somewhere but like
> much of my junk no idea where at the moment.

Mike,

I was actually hoping you had images or linkage to said phone. Unless you are talking about the IBM smart phone from 20 years ago?

> 
> I've also still got my original THINK sign but you'd have to pry that
> from my cold dead fingers; has anyone ever made a replica? Shouldn't be
> too hard.

These come up fairly often on ePay but I have yet to see one go for a reasonable price. I agree would be a cool accessory but as Fred pointed out they were not original to the desk.

-Ali


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 22:26:49 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:26:49 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <12766.30e33807.433375f8@aol.com>

Jay looking at  -  your flicker  page  I would   say  you have a mountain 
of it! <grin!>
 
I  see you have one of those  small reel tape  drives   also like  we  do 
in our  s20...  what is the interface on  them?   what  BPI ?  who actually 
made    them?
 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

----
Jay sez - Not sure what you're driving at there, but when  I'm done... all 
I will have
is one lonely rack :) Nothing wrong with  that!
Not to mention, there's the "classiccmp law of attraction". Basically  if 
you
get just part of a machine, the rest will suddenly start appearing  :)

From mspproductions at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 22:38:58 2015
From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:38:58 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [midatlanticretro] Announcement
References: <56021224.7050006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <848E1AC4-62CC-4C34-8557-4FFDA8E65169@gmail.com>

This was posted on another list, I thought that others on this list would be interested.

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Dave McGuire Mcguire at neurotica.com [midatlanticretro]" <midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com>
> Date: September 22, 2015 at 10:44:52 PM EDT
> To: "midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com" <midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [midatlanticretro] Announcement
> Reply-To: midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> Some of you are aware that I've been pursuing a long-term project of
> constructing a museum in the Pittsburgh area.
> 
> I am proud to announce that we have hit a major milestone: We have
> set a date for the first public opening. The Large Scale Systems
> Museum will open its doors to the public on Saturday, October 17th,
> just under one month from now.
> 
> This is to be a one-day provisional opening coinciding with an event
> here in town. We may decide to open the museum regularly on a sparse
> schedule afterward, or it may wait awhile, depending on how things go
> on the 17th. The renovation work is ongoing, so it won't be perfect,
> but we think it'll be good. A great deal of progress has been made
> here in the past several months.
> 
> Many of the Really Big Computers here will be running and
> demonstrated on a rotation throughout the day.
> 
> The event in town is a large "block party" of sorts that will
> encompass much of the downtown area. A few highlights:
> 
> - A fancy department store that was located on this block decades
> ago will re-open in their old store location to show off vintage
> wedding gowns, and some people who purchased their gowns there in the
> past will bring them back to show them off.
> 
> - A local winery will set up a wine tasting.
> 
> - A soldering workshop.
> 
> - A makerspace pop-up.
> 
> - A beer garden!
> 
> - The standard fare of food vendors, live bands, etc.
> 
> There are two other "Big Deal" tie-ins that I'd like to announce:
> 
> Big Deal #1: Many of you will remember my fiancee Autumn, who sold
> handmade vintage-computer-themed soaps at the most recent VCF-East.
> Her company, Apothecary Soap Company, will be opening its first store,
> here in town around the corner from our main building.
> 
> Big Deal #2: While the details aren't yet finalized, C/PMuseum in
> downtown Pittsburgh, curated by Corey Little and Chris Little, will be
> relocating many of its exhibits, including some vintage game consoles,
> to a temporary exhibit space just a few buildings down from mine.
> Since C/PMuseum's primary focus is on microcomputers and the Large
> Scale Systems Museum's primary focus is on minicomputers and
> mainframes, so together we'll have great coverage of a range of genres.
> 
> My building is at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068, right in
> the middle of the block party area. New Kensington is about ten
> minutes' drive from the Allegheny Valley exit of the Pennsylvania
> Turnpike, Exit 48. It's a very easy area to reach, and there are a
> number of decent hotels nearby.
> 
> I wish to extend an invitation to all of you to attend this event.
> It's on Saturday, October 17th, from noon to 8PM.
> 
> Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
> might be interested.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Dave
> 
> - -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
> 
> __._,_.___
> Posted by: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
> Reply via web post	?	Reply to sender	?	Reply to group	?	Start a New Topic	?	Messages in this topic (1)
> VISIT YOUR GROUP New Members 1
> ? Privacy ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use 
> .
>  
> 
> __,_._,___

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Sep 22 22:39:30 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <12766.30e33807.433375f8@aol.com>
References: <12766.30e33807.433375f8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509222038170.26535@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> I  see you have one of those  small reel tape  drives   also like  we  do 
> in our  s20...  what is the interface on  them?   what  BPI ?  who actually 
> made    them?

rather off-topic: is your space bar sticking?  Seems like a lot of 
keybounce.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 22 22:44:30 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:44:30 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5602201E.3010402@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/22/2015 7:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started thinking
> about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a different
> direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really old
> language, and considered way out of date by most universities' Comp Sci
> departments.

Until you needed compled err complex numbers.

> Jon
>
Ben.




From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 22:55:14 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:55:14 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
 <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
 <012a01d0f5ae$36a96490$a3fc2db0$@net>
Message-ID: <6A6B5FDA9A184920B8D5CE56DB1B6FD3@310e2>

I don't remember which model mine is, but here are 
some links:

http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-3345sl-cordless-phone-with-caller-id-call-waiting/specs/

http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-3460-cordless-phone-with-caller-id-call-waiting/

http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-900sp-cordless-phone-with-caller-id/

Pshaw; no IBM desk is complete without a THINK 
sign on it or on the wall behind it... ;-)

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ali" <cctalk at fahimi.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat 
OT: Freighting Items


> As mentioned previously IBM made (or put their 
> name on) all sorts of
> things, including several telephones; I've got 
> one somewhere but like
> much of my junk no idea where at the moment.

Mike,

I was actually hoping you had images or linkage to 
said phone. Unless you are talking about the IBM 
smart phone from 20 years ago?

>
> I've also still got my original THINK sign but 
> you'd have to pry that
> from my cold dead fingers; has anyone ever made 
> a replica? Shouldn't be
> too hard.

These come up fairly often on ePay but I have yet 
to see one go for a reasonable price. I agree 
would be a cool accessory but as Fred pointed out 
they were not original to the desk.

-Ali


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 22:56:11 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:56:11 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <12bb0.29a1c8f1.43337cdb@aol.com>

Ed reply - Jay - I  did all that  yeas ago... It did not   smoke  but  it  
also did not  do much  else.
LOOPBACK  to...   I need to  find  manuals and a  system tapes  probably.
 
Sure  looks  pretty  though  ( and better  with a  blue  et  head  terminal 
on top!)
 
 
I  wish I had  learned  more  about  DG   stuff.  I had some  folks   that 
had  helped   me  when I was starting out in the business   and  when DG  
stuff showed up or  a  local needed something usually I  turned  them  over  
to one of  my  friends. eventually  I  was  even handing of   DEC  deals  to  
friendly  people   and  just settled in on  the  HP stuff.
 
It  worked  well that  way  but  I  sure did  not learn much  abut  DG 
stuff!   
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

ed   sez -Pretty  futile to restore  until I have manuals  and  a  load  
tape if
needed in front of  me. 
----
jay  sez- Not futile at all. Taking it apart, cleaning it up, replacing  
anything
obviously bad, checking out the power supply.... all things you  can likely
do without a manual. You could go a little further than that  just by asking
a few questions here; folks are glad to help! Think of all  the great stuff
you'd learn along the way!! You'd find manuals and tapes at  some point I'm
sure!

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Tue Sep 22 23:00:05 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 00:00:05 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <12c5b.5d52c675.43337dc5@aol.com>

probably an artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening .
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 8:39:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cisin at xenosoft.com writes:

On Tue,  22 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> I  see you have one of  those  small reel tape  drives   also like  we   
do 
> in our  s20...  what is the interface on   them?   what  BPI ?  who 
actually 
> made   them?

rather off-topic: is your space bar sticking?  Seems  like a lot of 
keybounce.


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 23:06:57 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:06:57 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56022561.2040606@charter.net>

On 9/22/2015 9:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 07:11 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> 
> We've been here before and I don't care to chew already masticated cud.
>  Suffice it to say, that I've never seen a C for a non-binary,
> variable-word-length machine using 6-bit characters.  I've seen plenty
> of FORTRANs for such an architecture, however.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

That is just because they are so old that, aside from collectors or
those interested in a particular old machine, nobody ever *bothered*.
By the time C came along, those machines were well on their way to their
eventual demise.

I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you describe.
 But even I, as one of the few denizens that are "into" that particular
machine, would not bother with a C compiler for it.

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 23:08:41 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:41 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602201E.3010402@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <5602201E.3010402@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <560225C9.7050406@charter.net>

On 9/22/2015 10:44 PM, ben wrote:

> On 9/22/2015 7:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started thinking
>> about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a different
>> direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really old
>> language, and considered way out of date by most universities' Comp Sci
>> departments.
> 
> Until you needed compled err complex numbers.
> 
> Ben.
> 

Huh?

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Sep 22 23:22:37 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:22:37 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560225C9.7050406@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <5602201E.3010402@jetnet.ab.ca> <560225C9.7050406@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5602290D.4090201@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/22/2015 10:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 10:44 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> On 9/22/2015 7:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started thinking
>>> about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a different
>>> direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really old
>>> language, and considered way out of date by most universities' Comp Sci
>>> departments.
>>
>> Until you needed compled err complex numbers.
>>
>> Ben.
>>
>
> Huh?

Often real problems need complex numbers. Comp Sci often ignores real life
problems. Ben.



From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 23:35:00 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:35:00 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>

Before I write my own, does anyone happen to have an assembler and/or
a disassembler for the Intel 8089 I/O processor?

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 23:43:30 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:43:30 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net>

On 9/22/2015 10:12 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
> My recommendation would be to ensure compatibility with the MARC database format.  Even if you don't include all the fields, the fields you do have should be compatible.  If you look you should find Open Source projects that are MARC compatible.  It's been several years since I looked into this, and then I was populating a MARC database from a massive Excel spreadsheet.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 

I checked quite a bit of it out, including:

http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/
http://www.loc.gov/marc/umb/um01to06.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARC_standards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARC_standards#MARC_21
http://www.loc.gov/standards/marcxml/xml/spy/spy.html

MARC does not seem at all applicable to my goals - MARC is not at all a
"database" format.   Instead it is a (very complicated and cumbersome)
format standard for binary or (in the case of MARCXML) XML transmission
(interchange) of a very small portion of the sort of information I would
have in my database (like, the publisher and title).  The standard is
for records that have been folded into a single binary or XML
representation of the metadata about a publication.  Furthermore, and
most importantly, the standard doesn't really address the
characteristics of individual fields at all (aside from encoding special
characters, which I would not want to do at all). Finally, MARC and
MarcXML are *way* more baroque and complicated than I would ever want to
deal with (see my original statement).

Trying to apply MARC to my situation would seem to be akin to taking a
Cessna private plane to a major airline hanger for maintenance.  Yeah,
it could be done: a great cost and expense, with the possibility that
due to mismatch in experience, potentially fatal mistakes might be made.

The info on the Library of Congress "authority records" for identifying
publishers / manufacturers was interesting.  But, really, the important
thing that points to is to have those sorts of fields be constrained to
defined values so that a consistent set is used (instead of just free
form text), which I had already planned to do.

So, almost no value for mountains of work.

The value of MARC would be if someone wanted to take all of my documents
at some point and send them to a real library to include in its catalog.
 Then one might transform the rows of my database into MarcXML.  Not
something I care to do or worry about.

(BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).

JRJ



From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 23:55:14 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:55:14 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602290D.4090201@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <5602201E.3010402@jetnet.ab.ca> <560225C9.7050406@charter.net>
 <5602290D.4090201@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <560230B2.4010309@charter.net>



On 9/22/2015 11:22 PM, ben wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 10:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> On 9/22/2015 10:44 PM, ben wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/22/2015 7:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken started thinking
>>>> about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took off in a different
>>>> direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN was a really old
>>>> language, and considered way out of date by most universities' Comp Sci
>>>> departments.
>>>
>>> Until you needed compled err complex numbers.
>>>
>>> Ben.
>>>
>>
>> Huh?
> 
> Often real problems need complex numbers. Comp Sci often ignores real life
> problems. Ben.
> 
> 
> 

What confused me is what was meant by "compled err".  Say what?   Huh?

Anyway, I addressed in another response just how trivial it would be to
define a complex number as a C "struct", and write a set of routines for
the necessary manipulations (arithmetic operators,
input/output/transformation from and to strings, etc).  In C++ one could
even overload the normal arithmetic operators for that.  Not an issue at
all.

Indeed a definition and set of routines to do the computational part of
a "complex" data type exists in the book "Numerical Recipes in C".
Takes all of 3 pages.

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 22 23:59:39 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <12c5b.5d52c675.43337dc5@aol.com>
References: <12c5b.5d52c675.43337dc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <560231BB.3010503@charter.net>

On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> probably an artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening .
>  

Ugh.  Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with
squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain.  You have my
sympathy.

Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the
local music store.  I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you
not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna
happen.  It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since.
Go figure.  Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work
for everyone.  Sigh.]

JRJ

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 22 16:51:32 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:51:32 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509220821490.24012@shell.lmi.net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509220821490.24012@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUwp1oABiNXZ3MgH+qQ9Wqn2XGV-bk_Rw6ChdsicswgXg@mail.gmail.com>

LOL ... poor woman ... I could only imagine getting all excited that I was
gonna get a Sun workstation (especially back in the day when that counted
for something a bit above the pale...) and then opening the box and it's
just furniture!! Oh no!!

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Ali wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/878/retro-scan-of-the-week-the-official-ibm-pc-desk
>>
>
> I likde those.
>
> I gave three of those to the college for use as classroom machines.
>
> I had gotten them for next to nothing, because they were sized for 5150,
> not 5170.  I made spacers to raise the top panel to fit a thicker machine,
> and put much larger casters on them, for door thresholds, a tiled hallway,
> and the inevitability that they would be rolled over cords.
>
> With a relatively small monitor on top, it provided a comfortaqble podium
> and computer table for teachers to use while lecturing.
>
>
> A few years later, our department chair at the time (PhD from UCBerkeley)
> came running into the lab, squealing, "WE'RE GETTING SUNS!" WE'RE GETTING
> SUNS!"  She had been informed that at the loading dock, there were three
> "Multimedia Workstations" for us.  NO, we never got any Suns.  The
> "multimedia workstations" turned out to be open 3x6 foot computer desks on
> casters.  THOSE were to be our new classroom computer tables!  too deep,
> too wide, not tall enough to use while standing, . . .  They chucked the
> IBM workstations that I had given them (three just like yours) into
> dumpsters.  Why did I even bother?
>
> One of their new classroom/demo machine tables had big rubber wheels, that
> wouldn't turn easily.  They were almost ready to junk it, because their
> "support staff" didn't know that pneumatic wheels needed to be inflated. I
> pumped them up.
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred                 cisin at xenosoft.com
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Sep 22 18:30:31 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:30:31 -0700
Subject: Query for dec teleprinter roms
In-Reply-To: <5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
References: <56005722.1070502@gmail.com> <5600C4C2.60405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5601E497.4020002@bitsavers.org>

On 9/21/15 8:02 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote:

> The direct prompt of this request was the desire to get one or more of the dot matrix teleprinters running in MAME/MESS, the progress of which can be seen at
> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mess/drivers/decwritr.c , with the LA120, but the ROMs I have right know for the LA120 fail their built-in checksum test, so I'm stuck at a development
> impasse until I can get some more roms to work with (or correctly re-dumped copies of the existing roms).
>

I just uploaded the user, tech and IPB manuals for the LA120 to bitsavers.
The mirrors should pick them up tonight.




From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 20:29:26 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:29:26 -0500
Subject: LA120 ROM & new member intro
In-Reply-To: <CAPP7abHxgQC-+xaTqgg=wteficL1ttDyO4OGy5QS82HvcJunPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPP7abHxgQC-+xaTqgg=wteficL1ttDyO4OGy5QS82HvcJunPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPEokhKx6w-hvPy5PGmC1_h-J6PQu2tNGHftxbqnVd-Gg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

WELCOME!!

What is the part number of the dead power supply you gave up on?

What other DEC items do you have?

Where are you located?

Thanks, Paul

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 22 16:52:02 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:52:02 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVz_qh=g4fGh7NK+cCBQVWrOHmtpwSCx2O9rrGsBpbhRQ@mail.gmail.com>

I got a ROLM CBX II but I suppose that's pre-IBM-acquisition :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:

> > Don't you need an IBM phone to go with it?
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Please do explain...
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 22 16:54:40 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:54:40 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkVz_qh=g4fGh7NK+cCBQVWrOHmtpwSCx2O9rrGsBpbhRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
 <CAA43vkVz_qh=g4fGh7NK+cCBQVWrOHmtpwSCx2O9rrGsBpbhRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVcBLC9B=oAw2CkUB+r8ox_StUn1=hwxByz9WLTbovX4g@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, sorry, I misspoke; CBX 8000, not a CBX II :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> I got a ROLM CBX II but I suppose that's pre-IBM-acquisition :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> wrote:
>
>> > Don't you need an IBM phone to go with it?
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Please do explain...
>>
>>
>>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 22 17:09:25 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:09:25 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5601C688.4090104@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
 <5601C688.4090104@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVjSUw9H7d1mAOgCMtcWgGKZrkcqBEcFhqth7_MyrMp3g@mail.gmail.com>

I agree; AFAIK I was never aware of any link between Fortran and early C
... although if you squint at Ratfor just the right way it looks at times a
little bit like K&R without C-style function declarations and calling
semantics and some of the other frosting... I could see this being the root
of the assumption of the link between the two?

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> Reading the two referenced links leads me to a different conclusion:
> FORTRAN would not do the job at all, so he started from scratch - almost
> immediately.
>
> "Anyway, it took him about a day to realize that he didn't want to do a
> Fortran compiler at all. So he did this very simple language called B
> and got it going on the PDP-7."
>
> "After a rapidly scuttled attempt at Fortran, he created instead a
> language of his own"
>
> (and "rapidly scuttled seems to have been a day).
>
> So I don't agree with the assertion that "'C' started out as a Fortran
> compiler".  Not at all.
>
> JRJ
>
> On 9/22/2015 3:49 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:22 PM, Diane Bruce <db at db.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>>> But back in the 60's, every manufacturer had its own variety of
> FORTRAN,
> >>>>> including (IIRC), UNIVAC's own "FORTRAN V".
> >>>> Ah, yes.  I remember WatFor
> >>>
> >>> And Unix was no different, 'C' started out as a Fortran compiler.
> >>
> >> Really?  "citation needed".
> >
> > http://www.princeton.edu/~hos/Mahoney/expotape.htm
> >
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20030501014008/http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/chist.html
> >
> >
> >>
> >>      paul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Diane
> >
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 01:23:09 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:23:09 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5602454D.407@sydex.com>

On 09/22/2015 09:06 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> That is just because they are so old that, aside from collectors or
> those interested in a particular old machine, nobody ever *bothered*.
> By the time C came along, those machines were well on their way to their
> eventual demise.
>
> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you describe.
>   But even I, as one of the few denizens that are "into" that particular
> machine, would not bother with a C compiler for it.

Look, I can probably implement a C compiler (or FORTRAN or GPSS or 
JOVIAL or...) in Brainf*ck.  But a 1401 C would very likely be 
ill-suited to solving numeric problems compared to FORTRAN on the same 
platform.

Which is the point.  I suppose that it's possible to implement graphics 
manipulation routines in RPG II.

After all, languages are supposed to expose features of the underlying 
machine to the programmer.  If that weren't the case, we'd all be 
writing machine code.

Languages don't do anything in and of themselves.  You can write 
gibberish in any computer language.  Similarly, you can also write code 
that solves problems.

The argument is one of ease, not ability.

--Chuck


From steven at malikoff.com  Wed Sep 23 01:38:04 2015
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:38:04 +1000
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
Message-ID: <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Instead of cooking up another completely custom inventory management schema, you might consider adhering to Dublin Core for some more modern
schema conventions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Core

For the dbms engine I would use MariaDB over MySql (but with some of the MySQL tool chain) as I prefer code to remain outside the clutches of Oracle:
https://mariadb.org
It's a drop-in replacement, runs nicely and the HeidiSQL management client is very useable.

Also, why are you restricting your field lengths so much? This is the 21st century, you can afford to be a bit more generous on those VARCHARs :)
Final thing, are you going for a completely normalised database? (ok, I haven't analysed your schema to any great extent)

Steve.


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
From:    "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net>
Date:    Wed, September 23, 2015 12:00 pm
To:      cctalk at classiccmp.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
> publish it on a web page for public lookup.
>
> Below is my first cut at a database design for it.  I'd be happy for
> comments and suggestions, to the list or directly.  Note, however, that
> I don't expect to do this to the same level of complexity and
> completeness that one might if they were the library of congress, a
> major university library, etc.  So, some suggestions to generalize may
> be quietly ignored, even if they would in principle, be the "right
> thing" according to some criteria or other.
>
> This would be used for manuals, per se, print sets, etc.  Quite possibly
> for books as well.
>
> What follows amounts to a data dictionary:
>
> Table MANUAL:
>
>   This is the primary table of manuals.  Many of the fields will be
>   available for string and/or pull down search, as appropriate.
>
> Machine_MFG:  VARCHAR(32)
>   The manufacturer of the machine(s) to which the manual applies
>   Part of unique key.
>   Pull down search.
>
> Manual_Number: VARCHAR(40)
>   The manual number, including version strings, etc.
>   In some cases, this may be an SBN or ISBN.
>   Part of unique key
>   String search.
>
> Artifact_ID: CHAR(16) [format/type still under consideration]
>   The local identifier for the manual/artifact.
>   Part of unique key.
>   Will be generated if none is entered during creation/update.
>   (Required because I may have more than one copy of a given manual).
>
> Publisher: VARCHAR(32)
>   The publisher of the manual.  (Typically will be the same as the
>   Machine MFG - but not necessarily always)
>   May not be NULL.
>
> Type: VARCHAR(16)
>   Manual, Drawing (== printset, schematic, etc.), Book, ...
>   Pull down search.
>
> Original: BOOLEAN
>   True if an original manual.  False if a copy ("Xerox").
>
> Missing: BOOLEAN
>   True if the manual is missing (i.e., is not where it is supposed to
> be, and the actual location is not known).
>
> Title: VARCHAR(255)
>   The title of the manual, including any subtitles.
>   Suggest "; " to separate multiple titles/subtitles
>   May not be NULL
>   String search.
>
> Incomplete: CHAR(1)
>   Indicates if the manual is not a complete copy.
>   NULL indicates the copy is complete.
>
> Year: DATE
>   The year the manual was published / printed / copyrighted.
>   May be NULL, signifying the date is unknown / not entered.
>
> Location: VARCHAR(20)
>   The general location of the manual in my inventory
>   May be NULL, signifying the manual is not in my inventory.
>
> Cabinet: CHAR(2)
>   The ID of the cabinet or box in which the manual is stored, if any.
>   May be NULL, even if the manual is in my inventory.
>   May not be NULL if Drawer is not NULL.
>
> Drawer: CHAR(2)
>   The ID of the drawer of the cabinet in which the manual is stored,
>   if any.  May be NULL.
>
> Inventory_Date:  DATE
>   The date that the manual was last inventoried.
>
> Filename: VARCHAR(255)
>   The name of the file which is an image of the manual in my local
>   file storage.
>
> OnlineLocation: VARCHAR(255)
>   URL of the manual located online (e.g., the bitsavers URL)
>   May be NULL.  This does NOT mean that the manual is not online.
>   Of course, this field can become out of date.
>
> OnlineVersion: CHAR(1)
>   = means that the online manual is the same version as this one
>   > means that there is no equal version online, but there is a
>     later version
>   < means there is no equal or later version online, but there is an
>     earlier version.
>
> OnlineMD5: CHAR(32)
>   MD5 hash of online manual - used to check for moved manuals.  ;)
>
>
> TABLE MachineManual
>
> This table cross references manuals to the machine(s) to which they
> apply.  This list will NOT be guaranteed to be complete.  During inquiry
> and update, this will be a list of machines with a separator character
> in between which will not be allowed in Machine_MFG.  During an update,
> the entire list will be replaced with the first one being flagged as the
> primary machine.
>
> MachineMFG:  (See above).  Part of the unique key for this table.
> Manual_Number: (See above)  Part of the unique key for this table.
> Machine:  VARCHAR(16)
>    One of the machine(s) to which this manual applies.
>    Part of the unique key for this table.
> Primary_Machine: BOOLEAN
>    When true, indicates that this machine should be listed first
>    in the list of applicable machines.  For a peripheral, this will
>    typically be the machine for which the peripheral was originally
>    designed.
>
> So a list of machines for an RX01 manual might be:
>    PDP-11, RX01, RX01, VAX-11
>
>
> TABLE Machines
>
> A lookup table of valid machines.  Only column is Machine (See above).
> Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate that an update
> where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be greeted with
> some kind of confirmation panel.
>
>
> TABLE Manufacturers
>
> A lookup table of valid manufacturers.  Only column is Machine_MFG
> (See above).  Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate
> that an update where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be
> greeted with some kind of confirmation panel.
>
>
> Table Types
>
> A lookup table of valid Types. Only column is Type (See above)
>
> TABLE:  LastGeneratedArtifact
>
> The last generated artifact ID - used to assign new artifact numbers
> when one is not manually entered.  Algorithm TBD.  One column:
> Artifact_ID (See above)
>
>
> TABLE: Locations
>
> A table of valid locations (e.g. Basement, Garage, STORAGE, Unknown, etc.)
> Used for convenience during data entry.
>
>
> (Once this one is done and running (at least locally), the next one is
> probably media (tapes, floppies, etc.) which is not too bad, and then
> machines, cards and parts, which is more complicated for lots of reasons).
>
> After those are done (hopefully by the end of the year - I am retired
> and this will be my primary focus for a while) comes the design for a
> database for SMS cards and for the IBM 1410 use of SMS cards.
>
>
> JRJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 03:15:27 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 04:15:27 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <1612c.7a8d70bb.4333b99e@aol.com>

You are indeed  lucky they ceased. Mine  did not   start  until my  20s
 
It is  definitely one   thing  that  made sure  I  had my own business.
Many people in a supervisory position have no  understanding of  what it is 
 like.
 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 10:10:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cube1 at charter.net writes:

On  9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> probably an  artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening  .
>  

Ugh.  Had some of those while I was in High  School, complete with
squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense  pain.  You have my
sympathy.

Then one day I started to get one  while I was driving from home to the
local music store.  I pulled  over, took a deep breath and (I kid you
not) told myself no, you are not  going to get a migraine, ain't gonna
happen.  It went away almost  immediately, and I haven't had one since.
Go figure.  Almost certainly  pure coincidence. [I wish that would work
for everyone.   Sigh.]

JRJ


From simski at dds.nl  Wed Sep 23 02:41:31 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (simon)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:41:31 +0200
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <560257AB.5060402@dds.nl>

BIKESHED ALERT! BIKESHED ALERT!!

On 23-09-15 08:38, steven at malikoff.com wrote:
> Instead of cooking up another completely custom inventory management schema, you might consider adhering to Dublin Core for some more modern
> schema conventions:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Core
>
> For the dbms engine I would use MariaDB over MySql (but with some of the MySQL tool chain) as I prefer code to remain outside the clutches of Oracle:
> https://mariadb.org
> It's a drop-in replacement, runs nicely and the HeidiSQL management client is very useable.
>
> Also, why are you restricting your field lengths so much? This is the 21st century, you can afford to be a bit more generous on those VARCHARs :)
> Final thing, are you going for a completely normalised database? (ok, I haven't analysed your schema to any great extent)
>
> Steve.
>
>
> ---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
> Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
> From:    "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net>
> Date:    Wed, September 23, 2015 12:00 pm
> To:      cctalk at classiccmp.org
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
>> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
>> publish it on a web page for public lookup.
>>
>> Below is my first cut at a database design for it.  I'd be happy for
>> comments and suggestions, to the list or directly.  Note, however, that
>> I don't expect to do this to the same level of complexity and
>> completeness that one might if they were the library of congress, a
>> major university library, etc.  So, some suggestions to generalize may
>> be quietly ignored, even if they would in principle, be the "right
>> thing" according to some criteria or other.
>>
>> This would be used for manuals, per se, print sets, etc.  Quite possibly
>> for books as well.
>>
>> What follows amounts to a data dictionary:
>>
>> Table MANUAL:
>>
>>    This is the primary table of manuals.  Many of the fields will be
>>    available for string and/or pull down search, as appropriate.
>>
>> Machine_MFG:  VARCHAR(32)
>>    The manufacturer of the machine(s) to which the manual applies
>>    Part of unique key.
>>    Pull down search.
>>
>> Manual_Number: VARCHAR(40)
>>    The manual number, including version strings, etc.
>>    In some cases, this may be an SBN or ISBN.
>>    Part of unique key
>>    String search.
>>
>> Artifact_ID: CHAR(16) [format/type still under consideration]
>>    The local identifier for the manual/artifact.
>>    Part of unique key.
>>    Will be generated if none is entered during creation/update.
>>    (Required because I may have more than one copy of a given manual).
>>
>> Publisher: VARCHAR(32)
>>    The publisher of the manual.  (Typically will be the same as the
>>    Machine MFG - but not necessarily always)
>>    May not be NULL.
>>
>> Type: VARCHAR(16)
>>    Manual, Drawing (== printset, schematic, etc.), Book, ...
>>    Pull down search.
>>
>> Original: BOOLEAN
>>    True if an original manual.  False if a copy ("Xerox").
>>
>> Missing: BOOLEAN
>>    True if the manual is missing (i.e., is not where it is supposed to
>> be, and the actual location is not known).
>>
>> Title: VARCHAR(255)
>>    The title of the manual, including any subtitles.
>>    Suggest "; " to separate multiple titles/subtitles
>>    May not be NULL
>>    String search.
>>
>> Incomplete: CHAR(1)
>>    Indicates if the manual is not a complete copy.
>>    NULL indicates the copy is complete.
>>
>> Year: DATE
>>    The year the manual was published / printed / copyrighted.
>>    May be NULL, signifying the date is unknown / not entered.
>>
>> Location: VARCHAR(20)
>>    The general location of the manual in my inventory
>>    May be NULL, signifying the manual is not in my inventory.
>>
>> Cabinet: CHAR(2)
>>    The ID of the cabinet or box in which the manual is stored, if any.
>>    May be NULL, even if the manual is in my inventory.
>>    May not be NULL if Drawer is not NULL.
>>
>> Drawer: CHAR(2)
>>    The ID of the drawer of the cabinet in which the manual is stored,
>>    if any.  May be NULL.
>>
>> Inventory_Date:  DATE
>>    The date that the manual was last inventoried.
>>
>> Filename: VARCHAR(255)
>>    The name of the file which is an image of the manual in my local
>>    file storage.
>>
>> OnlineLocation: VARCHAR(255)
>>    URL of the manual located online (e.g., the bitsavers URL)
>>    May be NULL.  This does NOT mean that the manual is not online.
>>    Of course, this field can become out of date.
>>
>> OnlineVersion: CHAR(1)
>>    = means that the online manual is the same version as this one
>>    > means that there is no equal version online, but there is a
>>      later version
>>    < means there is no equal or later version online, but there is an
>>      earlier version.
>>
>> OnlineMD5: CHAR(32)
>>    MD5 hash of online manual - used to check for moved manuals.  ;)
>>
>>
>> TABLE MachineManual
>>
>> This table cross references manuals to the machine(s) to which they
>> apply.  This list will NOT be guaranteed to be complete.  During inquiry
>> and update, this will be a list of machines with a separator character
>> in between which will not be allowed in Machine_MFG.  During an update,
>> the entire list will be replaced with the first one being flagged as the
>> primary machine.
>>
>> MachineMFG:  (See above).  Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Manual_Number: (See above)  Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Machine:  VARCHAR(16)
>>     One of the machine(s) to which this manual applies.
>>     Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Primary_Machine: BOOLEAN
>>     When true, indicates that this machine should be listed first
>>     in the list of applicable machines.  For a peripheral, this will
>>     typically be the machine for which the peripheral was originally
>>     designed.
>>
>> So a list of machines for an RX01 manual might be:
>>     PDP-11, RX01, RX01, VAX-11
>>
>>
>> TABLE Machines
>>
>> A lookup table of valid machines.  Only column is Machine (See above).
>> Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate that an update
>> where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be greeted with
>> some kind of confirmation panel.
>>
>>
>> TABLE Manufacturers
>>
>> A lookup table of valid manufacturers.  Only column is Machine_MFG
>> (See above).  Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate
>> that an update where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be
>> greeted with some kind of confirmation panel.
>>
>>
>> Table Types
>>
>> A lookup table of valid Types. Only column is Type (See above)
>>
>> TABLE:  LastGeneratedArtifact
>>
>> The last generated artifact ID - used to assign new artifact numbers
>> when one is not manually entered.  Algorithm TBD.  One column:
>> Artifact_ID (See above)
>>
>>
>> TABLE: Locations
>>
>> A table of valid locations (e.g. Basement, Garage, STORAGE, Unknown, etc.)
>> Used for convenience during data entry.
>>
>>
>> (Once this one is done and running (at least locally), the next one is
>> probably media (tapes, floppies, etc.) which is not too bad, and then
>> machines, cards and parts, which is more complicated for lots of reasons).
>>
>> After those are done (hopefully by the end of the year - I am retired
>> and this will be my primary focus for a while) comes the design for a
>> database for SMS cards and for the IBM 1410 use of SMS cards.
>>
>>
>> JRJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From andy.holt at tesco.net  Wed Sep 23 03:39:23 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:39:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602454D.407@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>

?
> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
> of the underlying machine to the programmer. 

Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the underlying
machine.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 03:58:12 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 04:58:12 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <17e9c.43278a80.4333c3a4@aol.com>

Yes  host   was  having hickups  it   seems. 
 
Take a look  at the neat logic  trainer  by  IBM at  link  below,
 
Wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  tube    type  digital logic  trainer  
kit.  comes in  a   wonderful  fitted  case  with all kinds of   plugable  
units   see url  
 
http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
 
 
The logic  trainer is on the left  at the  right is   SAGE  plugable  unit 
 
This was a really early photo as  I think   I had   just  finished building 
the display case and that was all that was in  it!  that  entire  8 foot  
case is  pretty much   SAGE  display. SAGE is near and dear to  some of us  
as we had a  DC  across  from Luke  AFB   about  15 minutes  away  from   our 
 building. 
 
We even  have  some remains  of    come   gear  from the first  prototype  
Q7 system that I need to   hunt  down more info on.
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/22/2015 7:01:09 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cube1 at charter.net writes:

Hmmm.  I am getting a DNS miss on www.smecc.org - was not  getting that
earlier today.

JRJ

On 9/22/2015 8:37 PM,  COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> One  thing  first  look at  this  and    need  more  info on it and   
docs.
>  
> wish I had  more  info on this   IBM  tube   type  digital logic  trainer 
  
> kit.  comes in a   wonderful  fitted   case  with all kinds of    
plugable  
>  units
> see url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
>  
>  
> current  project    3000/37 and micro  3000
> Looking for  more   3000 stuff  both  small  and   large  ( cx, ser I,I 
ser 
> III   etc.)
> Pulled them all over to the media  center  where I  could spread  out and 
 
> work on them.
>  
>  ok here is  some of   our  stuff.
> we are not   exclusively a computer museum  but  we   do   have  some 
<grin!>
>  
>  
>  Other  areas   are 
>  scientific  instruments,   
> radar  and  radar  countermeasures  adn other electronic  warefare 
> radio and  TV  broadcasting,
>   Rural Electrification,   
> Tools of the journalist, 
>   office automation   1800's   forward.
>  Telecommunications  for the  Deaf and Hard of Hearing
> and on and  on 
>  
>  Some  Minis
>  
> H 11 ( LSI-11  by  DEC   but   in   Heath    packaging )
> DEC PDP8  classsic sn/18
> HP-2116b
> HP-2000 access system (has   2  2100 in it)
> HP3000/37  ( when it is in the building)  
> eclipse s20
>  
> need to  clean and   wedge in
> Dec  PDP 11/20
> DEC PDP-8 S
> NEXT   cube, printer, monitor and all next-y  related   chachakies
>  
> who know  what are in the other   buildings
>  
> Micros...
>  
> Intel   Intellect 8   
> Altairs
> Imsais
> many   Comidore things
> many R.S.
> Heath h-8
> Heath H-89
>  several osbornes
> apples
> sun-sparc
> lots of  single  board  computers
> cobalt cube
> next  cube with  all  accs
> a bunch of other ss
>  
> many many hp  desktops and  pcs
> love the prtototype iHP Integral we   have  too
>  
>   
>   
>  
> trainers and  digital  labs
>   
> IBM  really  early  with  tube  type  plugable  units
>  
> DEC lab
> Fabritec  lab  
>  
>  wish I had  more  info on this   IBM  comes in  a  wonderful  fitted  
case   
> with all kinds of    plugable  units
> see  url  http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg 
>   
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   
> In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard  Time,  
> jwest at classiccmp.org writes:
> 
>  Awesome.  What minicomputer systems do you have on public display 
besides  
> the
> DG? I'm  glad to see more DG representation of  course :)
> 
> ----
> This  month's  'make   computer  work ' project  is   HP-3000  related.  
> ----
> I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking   3K-related?
> 
> 


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 08:21:27 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:21:27 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <17e9c.43278a80.4333c3a4@aol.com>
References: <17e9c.43278a80.4333c3a4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5602A757.4030106@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 3:58 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> Yes  host   was  having hickups  it  seems. 
>  
> Take a look  at the neat logic  trainer  by  IBM at link  below,
>  
> Wish I had  more  info on this  IBM  tube   type  digital logic  trainer 
> kit.  comes in a   wonderful  fitted  case  with all kinds of    plugable 
> units   see url 
>  
> http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg
>  
>  
> The logic  trainer is on the left  at the  right is  SAGE  plugable  unit
>  


That is seriously cool.

I have one of the older style DEC ones, complete with lots of cards and
plug wires:

http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/logiclab.jpg

JRJ


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 08:25:01 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:25:01 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602454D.407@sydex.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <5602454D.407@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5602A82D.40408@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 1:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 09:06 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> 
>> That is just because they are so old that, aside from collectors or
>> those interested in a particular old machine, nobody ever *bothered*.
>> By the time C came along, those machines were well on their way to their
>> eventual demise.
>>
>> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
>> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you describe.
>>   But even I, as one of the few denizens that are "into" that particular
>> machine, would not bother with a C compiler for it.
> 
> Look, I can probably implement a C compiler (or FORTRAN or GPSS or
> JOVIAL or...) in Brainf*ck.  But a 1401 C would very likely be
> ill-suited to solving numeric problems compared to FORTRAN on the same
> platform.
> 

Because ???

(As far as that goes, just about *anything* would be ill-suited to
solving numeric problems on a 1401 (or a 1410 for that matter - that
wasn't a typo).  The *machines* just weren't well suited for it, with or
without the floating point accelerator.  If you wanted that, you got a
7000 series machine).

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 23 09:10:52 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
Message-ID: <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you
> describe.

Possible?  Sure.  But it would be difficult; you would need to simulate
a binary machine - C has a whole bunch of stuff that is defined to
operate "as if" certain things are stored in binary.  Coupled with the
way anything can be copied by using char-based types, you end up
needing a binary machine, whether real or simulated.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 09:17:12 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:17:12 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 1:38 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote:
> Instead of cooking up another completely custom inventory management schema, you might consider adhering to Dublin Core for some more modern
> schema conventions:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Core

Slightly more useful than MARC, but really it comes down to just a field
naming issue.

Relatively few of my fields are present there:

Title, Publisher, Creator (what I called Machine_MFG), Date (though
their definition is really really vague), identifier (my Manual_Number),

Their type would just be "Text" or "StillImage" for all of my stuff -
not sufficiently specific for my uses.

Subject is only *roughly* equivalent to my Machine table, and would not
do the job I need done with it.

I don't plan on a lengthy description.  No way I am going to enter that
much data.

> 
> For the dbms engine I would use MariaDB over MySql (but with some of the MySQL tool chain) as I prefer code to remain outside the clutches of Oracle:
> https://mariadb.org
> It's a drop-in replacement, runs nicely and the HeidiSQL management client is very useable.
> 

I certainly understand that point of view.  However, that really isn't
an issue for me, and MySQL is presumably better supported by hosting
outfits.

> Also, why are you restricting your field lengths so much? This is the 21st century, you can afford to be a bit more generous on those VARCHARs :)

Probably.  On the other hand, really easy to make them longer, too,
should that prove necessary - this isn't a 100 million row table.  And
the fields are already longer, in most cases, than I would want to
actually display and longer than the fields I currently have - which
have already been lengthened as needed.

> Final thing, are you going for a completely normalised database? (ok, I haven't analysed your schema to any great extent)

THANKS FOR ASKING THAT QUESTION.  Well I thought I had done a decent job
of practical normalization, but clearly missed some things that I
noticed as a result of your question.

First, I certainly should pull out the File and Online fields into a
separate table because as is they could result in
redundancy/inconsistency between multiple copies in my inventory.
Pulling them into a separate table will remove the redundancy, and also
allow for the eventual possibility of multiple online sources for a
given manual.

TABLE File

  Fields:  Machine_MFG(K), Manual_Number(K), OnlineLocation(K)*,
OnlineVersion*, OnlineMD5*.

   (Filename goes away - it is just an instance of "OnlineLocation")

(*) - removed from original Manual table.

Theoretically, I should separate the copies into a separate copy table,
keyed by artifact ID, but it wouldn't really buy me much, as I almost
always store multiple copies of a manual in the same place.  Still it
probably would be the way to go:

TABLE Artifact
   Fields: ArtifactID(K), Location*, Cabinet*, Drawer*, InventoryDate*,
   Missing*, Original*, Incomplete*, Publisher*, Date*

   I think I will add a field "Marked" - Boolean - true if an artifact
   has been marked with its ArtifactID.

   I *might* also yank Publisher and Date into this table.  Have to
   think about that, but with the possibility of multiple printings,
   the Date almost certainly belongs here.  I suppose one could argue
   the same for Publisher.  AH YES!  HP and Apollo - different
   publishers for the exact same manual.
   So, yes, these need to move too.

So now, table Manual just has the following:

   Machine_MFG(K), Manual_Number(K), Title, Type

And I need a relationship table to bind the two together:

TABLE ManaulArtifacts

   ArtifactID(K), Machine_MFG, Manual_Number

> 
> Steve.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
> Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
> From:    "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net>
> Date:    Wed, September 23, 2015 12:00 pm
> To:      cctalk at classiccmp.org
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
>> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
>> publish it on a web page for public lookup.
>>
>> Below is my first cut at a database design for it.  I'd be happy for
>> comments and suggestions, to the list or directly.  Note, however, that
>> I don't expect to do this to the same level of complexity and
>> completeness that one might if they were the library of congress, a
>> major university library, etc.  So, some suggestions to generalize may
>> be quietly ignored, even if they would in principle, be the "right
>> thing" according to some criteria or other.
>>
>> This would be used for manuals, per se, print sets, etc.  Quite possibly
>> for books as well.
>>
>> What follows amounts to a data dictionary:
>>
>> Table MANUAL:
>>
>>   This is the primary table of manuals.  Many of the fields will be
>>   available for string and/or pull down search, as appropriate.
>>
>> Machine_MFG:  VARCHAR(32)
>>   The manufacturer of the machine(s) to which the manual applies
>>   Part of unique key.
>>   Pull down search.
>>
>> Manual_Number: VARCHAR(40)
>>   The manual number, including version strings, etc.
>>   In some cases, this may be an SBN or ISBN.
>>   Part of unique key
>>   String search.
>>
>> Artifact_ID: CHAR(16) [format/type still under consideration]
>>   The local identifier for the manual/artifact.
>>   Part of unique key.
>>   Will be generated if none is entered during creation/update.
>>   (Required because I may have more than one copy of a given manual).
>>
>> Publisher: VARCHAR(32)
>>   The publisher of the manual.  (Typically will be the same as the
>>   Machine MFG - but not necessarily always)
>>   May not be NULL.
>>
>> Type: VARCHAR(16)
>>   Manual, Drawing (== printset, schematic, etc.), Book, ...
>>   Pull down search.
>>
>> Original: BOOLEAN
>>   True if an original manual.  False if a copy ("Xerox").
>>
>> Missing: BOOLEAN
>>   True if the manual is missing (i.e., is not where it is supposed to
>> be, and the actual location is not known).
>>
>> Title: VARCHAR(255)
>>   The title of the manual, including any subtitles.
>>   Suggest "; " to separate multiple titles/subtitles
>>   May not be NULL
>>   String search.
>>
>> Incomplete: CHAR(1)
>>   Indicates if the manual is not a complete copy.
>>   NULL indicates the copy is complete.
>>
>> Year: DATE
>>   The year the manual was published / printed / copyrighted.
>>   May be NULL, signifying the date is unknown / not entered.
>>
>> Location: VARCHAR(20)
>>   The general location of the manual in my inventory
>>   May be NULL, signifying the manual is not in my inventory.
>>
>> Cabinet: CHAR(2)
>>   The ID of the cabinet or box in which the manual is stored, if any.
>>   May be NULL, even if the manual is in my inventory.
>>   May not be NULL if Drawer is not NULL.
>>
>> Drawer: CHAR(2)
>>   The ID of the drawer of the cabinet in which the manual is stored,
>>   if any.  May be NULL.
>>
>> Inventory_Date:  DATE
>>   The date that the manual was last inventoried.
>>
>> Filename: VARCHAR(255)
>>   The name of the file which is an image of the manual in my local
>>   file storage.
>>
>> OnlineLocation: VARCHAR(255)
>>   URL of the manual located online (e.g., the bitsavers URL)
>>   May be NULL.  This does NOT mean that the manual is not online.
>>   Of course, this field can become out of date.
>>
>> OnlineVersion: CHAR(1)
>>   = means that the online manual is the same version as this one
>>   > means that there is no equal version online, but there is a
>>     later version
>>   < means there is no equal or later version online, but there is an
>>     earlier version.
>>
>> OnlineMD5: CHAR(32)
>>   MD5 hash of online manual - used to check for moved manuals.  ;)
>>
>>
>> TABLE MachineManual
>>
>> This table cross references manuals to the machine(s) to which they
>> apply.  This list will NOT be guaranteed to be complete.  During inquiry
>> and update, this will be a list of machines with a separator character
>> in between which will not be allowed in Machine_MFG.  During an update,
>> the entire list will be replaced with the first one being flagged as the
>> primary machine.
>>
>> MachineMFG:  (See above).  Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Manual_Number: (See above)  Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Machine:  VARCHAR(16)
>>    One of the machine(s) to which this manual applies.
>>    Part of the unique key for this table.
>> Primary_Machine: BOOLEAN
>>    When true, indicates that this machine should be listed first
>>    in the list of applicable machines.  For a peripheral, this will
>>    typically be the machine for which the peripheral was originally
>>    designed.
>>
>> So a list of machines for an RX01 manual might be:
>>    PDP-11, RX01, RX01, VAX-11
>>
>>
>> TABLE Machines
>>
>> A lookup table of valid machines.  Only column is Machine (See above).
>> Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate that an update
>> where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be greeted with
>> some kind of confirmation panel.
>>
>>
>> TABLE Manufacturers
>>
>> A lookup table of valid manufacturers.  Only column is Machine_MFG
>> (See above).  Naturally this table will change over time - I anticipate
>> that an update where the updater (me) keys in an "invalid" one will be
>> greeted with some kind of confirmation panel.
>>
>>
>> Table Types
>>
>> A lookup table of valid Types. Only column is Type (See above)
>>
>> TABLE:  LastGeneratedArtifact
>>
>> The last generated artifact ID - used to assign new artifact numbers
>> when one is not manually entered.  Algorithm TBD.  One column:
>> Artifact_ID (See above)
>>
>>
>> TABLE: Locations
>>
>> A table of valid locations (e.g. Basement, Garage, STORAGE, Unknown, etc.)
>> Used for convenience during data entry.
>>
>>
>> (Once this one is done and running (at least locally), the next one is
>> probably media (tapes, floppies, etc.) which is not too bad, and then
>> machines, cards and parts, which is more complicated for lots of reasons).
>>
>> After those are done (hopefully by the end of the year - I am retired
>> and this will be my primary focus for a while) comes the design for a
>> database for SMS cards and for the IBM 1410 use of SMS cards.
>>
>>
>> JRJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 09:30:56 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:30:56 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 9:10 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
>> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you
>> describe.
> 
> Possible?  Sure.  But it would be difficult; you would need to simulate
> a binary machine - C has a whole bunch of stuff that is defined to
> operate "as if" certain things are stored in binary.  Coupled with the
> way anything can be copied by using char-based types, you end up
> needing a binary machine, whether real or simulated.


An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude.
Same with long.  You do have to be able to convert between longs (and
possibly ints) and addresses (*).  So, you make an int 5 digits (which
matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10
digits.  You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell.  Then
the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical
2 and 4).

I think what you are referring to by stating anything can be copied
using char-based types is (void) * - "I don't know what this points to".
 But using (void) to copy things will work fine, so long as they are
actually compatible in length and type - which is true of most any C
implementation.

One interesting design decision would be whether or not to try and
exploit the whole wordmark part of the architecture in native code when
doing assignments or comparisons of like types, as opposed to some kind
of threaded code implementation, and not bothering with wordmarks at
all.  A case could be made for either approach.  (The PDP-11 DOS FORTRAN
largely generated threaded code, BTW).

And, naturally, one would have to do some kind of stack emulation.

It might not be ANSI C (any more than FORTRAN II is FORTRAN IV or BDS C
was ANSI C), but one could certainly come up with a decent, useful C for
such a machine.

JRJ

From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Sep 23 09:37:57 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:37:57 +0200
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5602B945.9090105@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-23 16:30, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> It might not be ANSI C (any more than FORTRAN II is FORTRAN IV or BDS C
> was ANSI C), but one could certainly come up with a decent, useful C for
> such a machine.

Can we skip this thread. It seems you are arguing the point that any 
machine can behave like any other machine, which has already been proven 
to be true 50 years ago.

And then it just becomes a question of some things being easier or 
harder than other things, which is very subjective.
So this seems like a totally pointless argument and thread. Of course 
any computer can implement any program, within the limits of available 
memory. It's already known.

	Johnny


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Sep 23 09:43:26 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:43:26 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <17E11DC1-76A9-4ECC-862F-4729170A21C0@comcast.net>


> On Sep 23, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
> On 9/23/2015 9:10 AM, Mouse wrote:
>>> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
>>> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you
>>> describe.
>> 
>> Possible?  Sure.  But it would be difficult; you would need to simulate
>> a binary machine - C has a whole bunch of stuff that is defined to
>> operate "as if" certain things are stored in binary. 

Worse yet, two's complement binary.  At least nowadays.  Which makes me suspect that there had to be some shortcuts taken when C was implemented on the CDC 6000 series.

(Interestingly enough, if you ignore that little detail, it isn't terribly hard to write the skeleton of a 6000 code generator back-end for GCC...)

	paul



From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Sep 23 09:54:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:54:49 +0200
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <17E11DC1-76A9-4ECC-862F-4729170A21C0@comcast.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <17E11DC1-76A9-4ECC-862F-4729170A21C0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5602BD39.3090400@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-23 16:43, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 23, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/23/2015 9:10 AM, Mouse wrote:
>>>> I am 100% certain, for example, that it would be possible to come up
>>>> with a C compiler for a 40K IBM 1410, which is in the set you
>>>> describe.
>>>
>>> Possible?  Sure.  But it would be difficult; you would need to simulate
>>> a binary machine - C has a whole bunch of stuff that is defined to
>>> operate "as if" certain things are stored in binary.
>
> Worse yet, two's complement binary.  At least nowadays.  Which makes me suspect that there had to be some shortcuts taken when C was implemented on the CDC 6000 series.
>
> (Interestingly enough, if you ignore that little detail, it isn't terribly hard to write the skeleton of a 6000 code generator back-end for GCC...)

As far as I can remember, the C standard still do not require that the 
computer uses two complement. So you can actually get away with a C 
compiler that uses one complement. But much actual code will probably 
break, because they make way more assumptions than the standard actually 
provide...

	Johnny


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Sep 23 09:53:57 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:53:57 -0400
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5602BD05.8050006@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-22 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 07:11 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>
>> There is a big difference between "can run" and "does run".  I'd
>> wager that C *can* run on anything one could use for any reasonably
>> useful FORTRAN (thus excluding things like the IBM 1410 card oriented
>> FORTRAN compiler, though I am aware of an effort to develop a small C
>> subset compiler for the 1401).
>>
>> The assertion that C was "nothing more than a bare step up from
>> assembly" is just that.  An assertion.  One with which I disagree
>> pretty firmly.
>
> We've been here before and I don't care to chew already masticated cud.
>   Suffice it to say, that I've never seen a C for a non-binary,
> variable-word-length machine using 6-bit characters.  I've seen plenty
> of FORTRANs for such an architecture, however.

You are correct. C, as it is defined, does *not* comfortably map to all 
architectures by any means.

It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures (something I 
remember Chris Torek writing a lot about on Usenet), but it isn't at 
home there, and it's pretty easy to push C out of its sweet spot.

--Toby

>
> --Chuck
>
>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 23 10:15:44 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: C on non-binary machines [was Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: ...]
In-Reply-To: <5602BD39.3090400@update.uu.se>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <17E11DC1-76A9-4ECC-862F-4729170A21C0@comcast.net>
 <5602BD39.3090400@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <201509231515.LAA25891@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> As far as I can remember, the C standard still do not require that
> the computer uses two complement.

No, but unsigned integer types have to work as if it did.  Signed
integer types may use two's complement, one's complement, or even
sign/magnitude, but nothing else; for example, implementing signed
integers with base -2 is not permitted.  6.2.6.2 in the very late C99
draft I have, notes manually edited in:

       [#2]  For  signed  integer  types,  the  bits  of the object
       representation shall be divided  into  three  groups:  value
       bits, padding bits, and the sign bit.  There need not be any
       padding bits; there shall be exactly one sign bit.  Each bit
       that  is  a  value bit shall have the same value as the same
       bit  in  the  object  representation  of  the  corresponding
       unsigned  type (if there are M value bits in the signed type
       and N in the unsigned type, then M<=N).  If the sign bit  is
       zero,  it shall not affect the resulting value.  If the sign
       bit is one, the value  shall  be  modified  in  one  of  the
       following ways:

         -- the  corresponding  value  with  sign  bit 0 is negated
            (sign and magnitude);

         -- the sign bit has the value -(2N) (two's complement);
(that's -(2^N), mangled by textification)

         -- the sign bit has the value -(2N-1) (one's complement).
(that's -((2^N)-1), mangled by textification)

       Which of these  applies  is  implementation-defined,  as  is
       whether  the  value  with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero
       (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value  bits  1
       (for one's complement), is a trap representation or a normal
       value.   In  the  case  of  sign  and  magnitude  and  one's
       complement,  if  this representation is a normal value it is
       called a negative zero.
...
       [#5]  The  values  of any padding bits are unspecified.45) A
(the "45)" is a footnote reference)
       valid (non-trap) object representation of a  signed  integer
       type   where  the  sign  bit  is  zero  is  a  valid  object
       representation of the corresponding unsigned type, and shall
       represent the same value.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 11:08:46 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:08:46 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <5602CE8E.9040607@sydex.com>

On 09/23/2015 01:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
>
> ?
>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features of the
>> underlying machine to the programmer.
>
> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the
> underlying machine.

And I take your point.  At least on supercomputers, it has pretty much
been the pattern that vast amounts of code are spent on automatic
optimization.  There seems to be a situation where computers implement a
set of features that allow for higher performance, but then the HLL has
to have some way to express the use of these features.  SIMD
instructions can be very difficult to abstract.

Initially, it's usually done through a subroutine/function library, then
incorporated into the code generation and optimization.  Then, the
language committee haggles and comes up with language structures.

Take F90, for example.  One of the major focii of the effort was to
incorporate vector extensions into the language.  But how to cover the
most ground and yet come up with something that a non-vector machine can
do justice to.  Whatever you come up with, it must be intelligible to
humans (recall that the standard has a broad definition of "computer",
which includes humans).   Whatever the new extensions do, they must also
not break the syntax and meaning of the already existing base language.
   So you have to have language features to define vectors of varying
shapes, operations of various strides, control structures (e.g. sparse
vectors, control vectors, etc.).  This can engender some furious
battles.  I recall that IBM threatened to withdraw from X3J3 if its
Vectran extensions were not implemented.

Pointers were a hot topic in F90.  There was a contingent who fiercely
opposed the idea, as it can make automatic optimization very
difficult--and it's equally difficult to see why it's necessary, as
Fortran has survived for decades without them.

And there were the problems that someone always had a neat hardware
feature that no one else had who wanted a special language feature in
the standard.

The focus of FORTRAN has pretty much always been high performance
numerical calculation.  It can be used for other things, as can any
other language, but even Wirth confessed that FORTRAN code consistently
outran his Pascal on numerical problems.

But the problem with any language, is that the more one adds to the
language, the less comprehensible that language can become.  C++
certainly has taken this route, as has Fortran. F2000 is so far removed
from the classical simplicity of F66, that I wouldn't be tempted to use
it today, unless it was essential to my job.  I know how to write C++
fairly well, but find myself relapsing to C for simple programs.

Sometimes more isn't better.

--Chuck

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Sep 23 11:09:56 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:09:56 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <56020541.90901@sydex.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5602CED4.5000103@pico-systems.com>

On 09/22/2015 08:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 06:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> So, B was never actually a FORTRAN compiler, just Ken 
>> started
>> thinking about FORTRAN grammar and within one DAY took 
>> off in a
>> different direction.   By that time (1969 or so) FORTRAN 
>> was a really
>> old language, and considered way out of date by most 
>> universities'
>> Comp Sci departments.
>
> Which is why C started out with a COMPLEX data type...NOT. 
> FORTRAN can run on a much wider variety of machines than 
> can C.
>
> C was nothing more than a bare step up from assembly.
>
Yes, quite true, BUT it also makes recursion and pointers 
easy to do.  These are modern things that were really hard 
in the original FORTRAN.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Sep 23 11:17:19 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:17:19 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <5602D08F.1020503@pico-systems.com>

On 09/23/2015 03:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> ?
>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
>> of the underlying machine to the programmer.
> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the underlying
> machine.
>
Well, as far as I know, the 1401 series does NOT have binary 
data types, or floating point.  Just decimal integers, where 
an implied decimal point can be placed.  I think this would 
make a POSIX compliant C rather difficult to do.  But, of 
course, you could just implement what came naturally to the 
machine.  For a POSIX compliant implementation, you'd just 
about have to generate some kind of code interpreted by an 
interpreter that ran on the 1401 directly.

Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 23 11:25:15 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:25:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
Message-ID: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Toby Thain

    > It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures 

{Innocent look}

You mean, like the PDP-10?

{Ducks!}

	Noel

From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 11:28:05 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:28:05 -0700
Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_would_like_to_find_blue_dg_et_head_l?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?ooking_terminal_to_go_with=0D__small_ecli...?=
Message-ID: <wd12vdfvsl6y0xw7u19655w9.1443025685173@email.android.com>


    
Wow! That is neat!Our Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and lots of patch cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the date?Ed#


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> 
Date: 09/23/2015  6:21 AM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: COURYHOUSE at aol.com, cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
  small ecli... 

On 9/23/2015 3:58 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> Yes? host?? was? having hickups? it? seems. 
>? 
> Take a look? at the neat logic? trainer? by? IBM at link? below,
>? 
> Wish I had? more? info on this? IBM? tube?? type? digital logic? trainer 
> kit.? comes in a?? wonderful? fitted? case? with all kinds of??? plugable 
> units?? see url 
>? 
> http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg
>? 
>? 
> The logic? trainer is on the left? at the? right is? SAGE? plugable? unit
>? 


That is seriously cool.

I have one of the older style DEC ones, complete with lots of cards and
plug wires:

http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/logiclab.jpg

JRJ


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 11:38:04 2015
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 09:38:04 -0700
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go
 with small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <wd12vdfvsl6y0xw7u19655w9.1443025685173@email.android.com>
References: <wd12vdfvsl6y0xw7u19655w9.1443025685173@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LQ0mc_tnK-ZqMkEdQUPK4xRv9eaCmxHSoJrMVpvuvQZCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 9:28 AM, couryhouse <couryhouse at aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> Wow! That is neat!Our Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and
> lots of patch cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the
> date?Ed#
>
>
I'm pretty sure I saw one of those circa 1970.

It was a logic trainer, I'm pretty sure it had the same from factor and I'm
pretty sure it was a DEC, but I can't remember what it looked it well
enough to be say that picture is what I remember, but it sure feels like it.

-- Charles

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Sep 23 11:51:49 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:51:49 -0400
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re:
 Self modifying code
In-Reply-To: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5602D8A5.5060403@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-23 12:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Toby Thain
>
>      > It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures
>
> {Innocent look}
>
> You mean, like the PDP-10?

Chris Torek mentioned Data General. Typical post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.c/8HosoTwHEBM/BPXX_4yvRxIJ

--Toby


>
> {Ducks!}
>
> 	Noel
>


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 12:00:31 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:00:31 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <wd12vdfvsl6y0xw7u19655w9.1443025685173@email.android.com>
References: <wd12vdfvsl6y0xw7u19655w9.1443025685173@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <5602DAAF.5090806@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 11:28 AM, couryhouse wrote:
> Wow! That is neat!
> Our Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and lots of patch
> cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the date?
> Ed#
> 
> 
> 

There is an earlier one of similar design, but blue colored, in the
1966-67, 1967 and 1968 logic handbooks - so mine is later than that.

One with PDP-8/PDP-12 style switches shows up in the back of the 1969
logic handbook.

There is one that looks somewhat like mine on the inside front cover of
the 1970 logic handbook, and the panels that would be possible to
include in one start at page 353.  So that dates it to 1970 or after.


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 12:09:53 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:09:53 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602D08F.1020503@pico-systems.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5602D08F.1020503@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5602DCE1.1050605@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 11:17 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> On 09/23/2015 03:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
>> ?
>>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
>>> of the underlying machine to the programmer.
>> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the
>> underlying
>> machine.
>>
> Well, as far as I know, the 1401 series does NOT have binary data types,
> or floating point.  Just decimal integers, where an implied decimal
> point can be placed.  I think this would make a POSIX compliant C rather
> difficult to do.  But, of course, you could just implement what came
> naturally to the machine.  For a POSIX compliant implementation, you'd
> just about have to generate some kind of code interpreted by an
> interpreter that ran on the 1401 directly.
> 
> Jon
> 

POSIX is not, in its origins, was not a language standard.  It was an OS
interface standard.  Really not relevant to the discussion, I think.  I
do agree that trying to provide a POSIX compliant operating system
interface on such a machine would be impractical.  Even if you could do
it, there would not be enough memory.

Naturally, C programs that depended upon, say, a numerically encoded
character might fail, but one could still provide functions that
converted from a number to a character and vice/versa (as in PASCAL).

The 1410 (which is what I originally mentioned, not a 1401) does have a
floating point - normally implemented in software, but also available in
hardware (standard on a 7010).  I have to believe the 1401 had to have
something similar, since there were FORTRANs for it.  ;)

The series would be more properly referred to as the 1400 series.  The
1410 is not like, say, a 1440 which offers 1401 compatibility, aside
from a switch which quite literally caused the machine to become a 1401
instead of a 1410.

JRJ


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Sep 23 12:21:35 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:21:35 -0700
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>

On Sep 23, 2015, at 9:25 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>> From: Toby Thain
> 
>> It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures
> 
> {Innocent look}
> 
> You mean, like the PDP-10?
> 
> {Ducks!}
> 
>    Noel

Strangest C I saw was on a DPS-8 mainframe running GCOS-8.

Zane

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 12:47:07 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:47:07 -0700
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>
References: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <5602E59B.9000705@sydex.com>

On 09/23/2015 10:21 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> On Sep 23, 2015, at 9:25 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>> From: Toby Thain
>>
>>> It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures
>>
>> {Innocent look}
>>
>> You mean, like the PDP-10?
>>
>> {Ducks!}
>>
>> Noel
>
> Strangest C I saw was on a DPS-8 mainframe running GCOS-8.
>
> Zane

Well, there are plenty of word-but-not-byte/character addressable 
machines out there, which makes life interesting for the likes of C. 
FORTRAN (at least FORTRAN IV) never had any problems with that, as the 
CHARACTER datatype didn't yet exist in the language, but for the 
occasional vendor "extension".  Later versions of FORTRAN/Fortran, of 
course did.

The CDC 6000 series for example.  Ones complement, 60-bit 
word-addressable system used well into the 1980s, as opposed to 
bit-addressable CDC machines like the STAR.  Interestingly COBOL on the 
6000 easily outran most COBOL implementations on 
byte/character-addressable machines.

One thing that I've wondered about is "does the current HLL-du-juor 
dictate processor architecture?"--and not the reverse.  Does anyone 
consider a machine that doesn't implement any sort of hardware stack, 
for example, a marketplace contender?

--Chuck

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 13:29:27 2015
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:29:27 -0700
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>
References: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LRWN86Y5kjmZekMUtdOPrgx_OvQX8kz+0jCSNAMRv3upg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> On Sep 23, 2015, at 9:25 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> >> From: Toby Thain
> >
> >> It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures
> >
> > {Innocent look}
> >
> > You mean, like the PDP-10?
> >
> > {Ducks!}
> >
> >    Noel
>
> Strangest C I saw was on a DPS-8 mainframe running GCOS-8.
>
>
And stranger yet, it is currently available and supported:

http://www.thinkage.ca/english/gcos/product-ansic.shtml

-- Charles

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Wed Sep 23 13:44:22 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:44:22 -0700
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <6A6B5FDA9A184920B8D5CE56DB1B6FD3@310e2>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
 <CAA43vkWsG4r4tsimxjVojYM4QWL0y2UKzp=yEqdfx6uMkML0+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b001d0f53f$17bd2180$47376480$@net>
 <5F1E0CB0FB4C4509BCC1DB309E80B05A@310e2>
 <010701d0f57c$d0cadd10$72609730$@net>
 <66321017BF0F44CB8AB8EBA7CB7567BF@310e2>
 <012a01d0f5ae$36a96490$a3fc2db0$@net>
 <6A6B5FDA9A184920B8D5CE56DB1B6FD3@310e2>
Message-ID: <017a01d0f62f$ddd0d150$997273f0$@net>

> I don't remember which model mine is, but here are some links:
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-3345sl-cordless-phone-with-caller-id-
> call-waiting/specs/
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-3460-cordless-phone-with-caller-id-
> call-waiting/
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/ibm-900sp-cordless-phone-with-caller-id/
> 
> Pshaw; no IBM desk is complete without a THINK sign on it or on the
> wall behind it... ;-)

Mike,

I think I will pass on those - not retro enough. However, I am in full agreement with you on the sign!

-Ali


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 14:34:23 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:34:23 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <37207.73658191.433458bf@aol.com>

I really believe  a  person  would  make an   entire  interesting  
collection of  just  logic   trainers!
 
we have a  couple of  the MINIVAC   trainers  too  one I  keep under glass 
and the other  I  take out  for show  and tell.
 
We have a fabritek and  a few other  later  ones   too.
 
 
In a message dated 9/23/2015 9:58:30 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cube1 at charter.net writes:

On  9/23/2015 11:28 AM, couryhouse wrote:
> Wow! That is neat!
> Our  Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and lots of patch
>  cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the date?
>  Ed#
> 
> 
> 

There is an earlier one of similar  design, but blue colored, in the
1966-67, 1967 and 1968 logic handbooks -  so mine is later than that.

One with PDP-8/PDP-12 style switches shows  up in the back of the 1969
logic handbook.

There is one that looks  somewhat like mine on the inside front cover of
the 1970 logic handbook,  and the panels that would be possible to
include in one start at page  353.  So that dates it to 1970 or  after.



From mark at markesystems.com  Wed Sep 23 13:45:20 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:45:20 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CED73051391245E8865F6AF78C663DC5@Daedalus>

> There were plenty of assemblers around, some even native.  Heck, I wrote
> both an 8008 and an 8080 cross-assembler (in FORTRAN, naturally).  It's
> not rocket science.  One friend of mine wrote his assembler as macros
> for a mainframe assembler.  That, at once, gave him all of the advanced
> facilities of the host assembler.  Wish I'd thought of that...

So, I wrote my primitive little 8080 assembler, in Fortran-77.  I started 
using it the next day, and my manager asked where I got it.  After I told 
him, he said that I should have asked him first, because he could have put 
together one using editor macros pretty easily - in less than a week, he 
estimated.  The fact that I knew nothing about macros notwithstanding, I 
noticed I thereafter got a lot more autonomy when I told him I wrote mine in 
a single (longish) day...
~~
Mark Moulding


From mark at markesystems.com  Wed Sep 23 14:06:55 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:06:55 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <940F13EDF94F46698AF6FD9A489C72B3@Daedalus>

> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
> publish it on a web page for public lookup.

I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project, but 
have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end?  If not, you 
might take a look at www.sqlite.org - it's an extremely nice bit of 
software, if not for this project, then perhaps others.
~~
Mark Moulding


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 15:53:08 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:53:08 -0500
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <CED73051391245E8865F6AF78C663DC5@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <CED73051391245E8865F6AF78C663DC5@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <56031134.20004@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 1:45 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote:
>> There were plenty of assemblers around, some even native.  Heck, I wrote
>> both an 8008 and an 8080 cross-assembler (in FORTRAN, naturally).  It's
>> not rocket science.  One friend of mine wrote his assembler as macros
>> for a mainframe assembler.  That, at once, gave him all of the advanced
>> facilities of the host assembler.  Wish I'd thought of that...
> 
> So, I wrote my primitive little 8080 assembler, in Fortran-77.  I
> started using it the next day, and my manager asked where I got it. 
> After I told him, he said that I should have asked him first, because he
> could have put together one using editor macros pretty easily - in less
> than a week, he estimated.  The fact that I knew nothing about macros
> notwithstanding, I noticed I thereafter got a lot more autonomy when I
> told him I wrote mine in a single (longish) day...
> ~~
> Mark Moulding
> 

Good boss....

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 15:56:53 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:56:53 -0500
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <37207.73658191.433458bf@aol.com>
References: <37207.73658191.433458bf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <56031215.2020809@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 2:34 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> I really believe  a  person  would  make an  entire  interesting 
> collection of  just  logic  trainers!
>  
> we have a  couple of  the MINIVAC   trainers  too one I  keep under
> glass and the other  I  take out  for show and tell.
>  

My mother in law had one of those she used in her high school for extra
projects for kids in her math classes.  Played with it when I was up one
Labor Day weekend before my wife and I were married.

If that counts then so should the Digicomp plastic slidy-toy-thing I had
as a kid.  ;)

JRJ

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 16:00:08 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:00:08 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <41d56.1cb0721f.43346cd7@aol.com>

Ok  have  digicomp...
then there were   the  arrray  of analog   computers  with potentiometers 
and a meter....
 
 
In a message dated 9/23/2015 1:54:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cube1 at charter.net writes:

On  9/23/2015 2:34 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> I really believe   a  person  would  make an  entire  interesting  
> collection of  just  logic  trainers!
>   
> we have a  couple of  the MINIVAC    trainers  too one I  keep under
> glass and the other   I  take out  for show and tell.
>  

My mother in  law had one of those she used in her high school for extra
projects for  kids in her math classes.  Played with it when I was up one
Labor Day  weekend before my wife and I were married.

If that counts then so  should the Digicomp plastic slidy-toy-thing I had
as a kid.   ;)

JRJ


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 16:00:59 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:00:59 -0400
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
Message-ID: <41fc5.4587712e.43346d0a@aol.com>

see if  mother in law  can bag it!  they are   rather  pricey  now!  heh 
heh!
 
 
In a message dated 9/23/2015 1:54:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cube1 at charter.net writes:

On  9/23/2015 2:34 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> I really believe   a  person  would  make an  entire  interesting  
> collection of  just  logic  trainers!
>   
> we have a  couple of  the MINIVAC    trainers  too one I  keep under
> glass and the other   I  take out  for show and tell.
>  

My mother in  law had one of those she used in her high school for extra
projects for  kids in her math classes.  Played with it when I was up one
Labor Day  weekend before my wife and I were married.

If that counts then so  should the Digicomp plastic slidy-toy-thing I had
as a kid.   ;)

JRJ


From cruff at ruffspot.net  Wed Sep 23 13:09:49 2015
From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:09:49 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran
Message-ID: <5AC841E8-46E0-483E-BF8B-8465706690AD@ruffspot.net>

At NCAR there was a structured Fortran preprocessor named IFTRAN that was in use for a long time.  The earlier versions of the NCAR Local Network (NLNET), later renamed MASnet (Mainframe and Server network), as well as a variety of graphics packages were written in it.  I still have the IFTRAN to C translator I wrote to convert everything to C code so we didn?t have to spend money on Fortran compilers on the Unix boxes.

MASnet was a Hyperchannel cross bar network used for batch job submissions and data transfers to/from the Mass Storage Server (MSS), the supercomputers and the front end servers.  Eventually it was migrated to run on top of TCP/IP and Ethernet when the Hyperchannel hardware got expensive to maintain and comparatively slow.

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 15:52:20 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:52:20 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56031104.4030702@charter.net>

If anyone cares a draft data model is visible at:

http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf

(It may change as I work on the design).

Biggest change from earlier discussions: I found no reason not to merge
the manuals/artifacts relationship table into the artifact table, and I
reduced the primary key columns down to only those absolutely necessary
to guarantee uniqueness.

JRJ


From thebri at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 15:54:18 2015
From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:54:18 -0400
Subject: LA120 ROM & new member intro
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPEokhKx6w-hvPy5PGmC1_h-J6PQu2tNGHftxbqnVd-Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPP7abHxgQC-+xaTqgg=wteficL1ttDyO4OGy5QS82HvcJunPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuPEokhKx6w-hvPy5PGmC1_h-J6PQu2tNGHftxbqnVd-Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPP7abFKwNVLrQe1mqNW32GgDXw4p_98c1_DRv5LwKr_1gcH_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 9:29 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

What is the part number of the dead power supply you gave up on?
>

It's the H7864 (Astec aa12130) in the BA23 enclosure.

It powered up a few times, but now only the switch light comes on.  If I
remember, it wouldn't power up with just the cpu board (or maybe just the
cpu + memory), but with cpu, memory, disk controller + disks, it would
power up.  I was able to poke around in the 'boot menu' (enough to see that
the machine and serial port worked), and the next morning it wouldn't power
up.

I checked for cold solder joints, and replaced one of the three line filter
caps - the other two aren't the exploding type.  I'm getting power out of
the filter anyway and the rectifier is OK (voltage across the two caps).  I
don't know switching power supplies well enough to go poking around in
there.

What other DEC items do you have?
>

The MicroPDP (KDF11-BJ, 128 kw memory)

VAXstation 3100 (m48 sounds right) running OpenVMS (probably well expired
by now)

DECstation 5000/120 (+ 2x disk expansion) running Ultrix.  As I recall,
this was a DNS server at BBN.  I thought I saved the original bits, but I
see I was in the mucking about before I made the copy.

DECsystem 5000/200 - which I've been able to do nothing with.  I should
haul it out and see if I've gotten any smarter since the last time I tried
it.

LA120 DECwriter III (cleaned and repainted, NOS ribbon and a box of paper)
LA120 DECwriter III (dead; print head is jammed, and the 'LSI printer' IC
is bad)

PDP 8a/400 - 3x m8315 (one that ignores HALT, one that doesn't work, one
that hopefully works 100%), 2x m8316 & m8317 & 8k core)

PDP 11/34a + 2x RL01's - a winter project.  All I've done is clean out the
dust and whatnot.  I'm pretty sure I'm missing the cable to connect the
controller to the disks.  Annoyingly, one of the keypad buttons is busted
off, and previous 'repairs' (not mine!) screwed up the joint enough that I
had to make a bridge to glue it back together.  The membrane button below
it now feels weird - no 'click'.  I _really_ don't want to take this
apart.  Did that on the 8a, and it was a nightmare.

Where are you located?
>

Just north of Washington DC.  Anyone else?

b

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Sep 23 16:27:59 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 15:27:59 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/23/2015 2:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
>
> ?
>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
>> of the underlying machine to the programmer.
>
> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the underlying
> machine.

The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
Ben.



From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 16:40:14 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 14:40:14 -0700
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all --

I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" at
the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.

I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't find
anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of course).

Thanks,
Josh

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 16:44:37 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 14:44:37 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model
(a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
(it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
pictured on this site: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm

Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
I gotten myself into with this thing?

Thanks,
Josh

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 16:47:14 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:47:14 +0100
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>

Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no documents and have forgotten everything I knew. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
> Dersch
> Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
> 
> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model (a
> badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take some
> detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up (it's very,
> very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on this site:
> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
> 
> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
> I gotten myself into with this thing?
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 17:08:02 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:08:02 -0500
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <940F13EDF94F46698AF6FD9A489C72B3@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443027600.37145.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <940F13EDF94F46698AF6FD9A489C72B3@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <560322C2.4090009@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 2:06 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote:
>> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many
>> years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually
>> publish it on a web page for public lookup.
> 
> I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project,
> but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end?  If
> not, you might take a look at www.sqlite.org - it's an extremely nice
> bit of software, if not for this project, then perhaps others.
> ~~
> Mark Moulding
> 
> 

No, I would not consider it.  I have experience with it on my Garmin GPS
unit.  I really dislike it.

JRJ


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 17:09:42 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:09:42 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <56032326.30504@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 4:27 PM, ben wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
>>
>> ?
>>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
>>> of the underlying machine to the programmer.
>>
>> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the
>> underlying
>> machine.
> 
> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
> Ben.
> 
> 

Yes, STAGE2 and friends pretty well faded out when LR grammars and
parsers and parser generators became more widely understood and used.

JRJ

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 23 18:15:10 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:15:10 +0100
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5603327E.3080107@ntlworld.com>

On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: tony duell
>
>      > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program
>      > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets.
>
> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on the
> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, and
> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two
> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in the
> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban legend?
>
>

I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the 
ODS-1 disk format
was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of 
VMS. I *think*
that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting 
could
be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot 
block in
a way that each was happy with.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 18:24:53 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:24:53 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>

On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote:

> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
> Ben.

It depends.  One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture, 
complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in 
macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small 
emulator for the devised machine.

After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate 
native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions.

A way to get certain tasks done very quickly.

The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful 
preprocessor; some assemblers were similarly versatile. For example, 
I've used an assembler that boasted support of arrays of structures of 
user-defined data types.  Now that was a macro facility.

--Chuck


From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 23 18:29:37 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:29:37 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca> <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <560335E1.4070607@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 6:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote:
> 
>> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
>> Ben.
> 
> It depends.  One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture,
> complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in
> macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small
> emulator for the devised machine.
> 
> After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate
> native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions.
> 
> A way to get certain tasks done very quickly.
> 

Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2.

JRJ

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Wed Sep 23 18:38:34 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:38:34 +0100
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
References: <BAY179-W206ACACCEA0066A6E86CF1B55B0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509161049200.31096@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150918135131.10D112073EDA@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509180753080.7104@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150920035819.B71772073EB2@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <55FEF299.9090907@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509201209200.16171@shell.lmi.net>
 <55FF5587.5050608@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <560337FA.70404@ntlworld.com>

On 21/09/15 01:55, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>
> I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
> with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
> for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
> on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot 
> code
> under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
> CD to be bootable under Windows.

I did something very similar (or rather, used someone else's code to do 
something
very similar) with ODS-2 under OpenVMS and ISO9660 (which is what Windows
uses for CD media iirc).

As you say, ISO9660 leaves the first 16 (or thereabouts) 2048 byte 
blocks undefined.
ODS-2, on the other hand, uses them. So the code builds an ISO9660 CD 
and then
overlays the ODS-2 structure on top. It finds the ISO9660 directory 
structures and
arranges for them to live in BADBLK.SYS so VMS is happy enough when 
mounting the
media. All the ODS-2 structures get packed into the beginning of the 
image so anything
looking at the ISO9660 side sees nothing untoward. This only works well 
for filetypes
that have no special structure under ODS-2: basically CR-LF text files 
and binary
formats (such as PDF). I still have a CD that I built this way many 
moons ago.

I remember reading a message in one of the EASYnet NOTES conferences
(inside DEC) which more or less said that ISO9660 leaving those initial 
blocks
free wasn't a coincidence and that DEC's representative (Andy Goldstein 
perhaps)
had pushed for that.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 18:57:22 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:57:22 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560335E1.4070607@charter.net>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca> <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
 <560335E1.4070607@charter.net>
Message-ID: <56033C62.9040804@sydex.com>

On 09/23/2015 04:29 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2.

The first time I did this was for translating COBOL to a special-purpose 
dialect.  Not a simple lexical task--it was a full-blown two-pass affair.

The initial test versions of the thing were very, very slow.  Once the 
native-code version was rolled out, it was very, very fast.  Development 
time was pretty fast.

--Chuck





From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Sep 23 19:36:13 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:36:13 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <5603327E.3080107@ntlworld.com>
References: <20150921131513.E3A3118C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5603327E.3080107@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <5603457D.2070703@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-24 01:15, Antonio Carlini wrote:
> On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>      > From: tony duell
>>
>>      > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code
>> program
>>      > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton
>> sets.
>>
>> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
>> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block
>> on the
>> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end
>> machine, and
>> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the
>> two
>> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code
>> (in the
>> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban
>> legend?
>>
>>
>
> I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the
> ODS-1 disk format
> was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of
> VMS. I *think*
> that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting
> could
> be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot
> block in
> a way that each was happy with.

I think that is incorrect, since early VMS didn't havea  boot block. The 
VAX-11/780 was always booted from the PDP-11, and it started with VMB. 
VMB was gotten from the FE, and VMB in turn understood the file system.

It wasn't until the VAX-11/750 that DEC did a VAX that used boot blocks. 
And then, of course, the boot block is just the first block(s) on the 
disk. Don't matter what file system you might have...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 19:52:23 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:23 -0700
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56034947.1090007@gmail.com>

FYI, I've thrown up a couple of (cell phone) photos of the SC44 boards here:

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/

I'll have the machine home in a few days and I'll be able to take better 
pictures then...

- Josh


On 9/23/15 2:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Hi all --
>
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some 
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and 
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the 
> place of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height 
> labeled "1051" at the end of the first backplane.  The two are 
> connected via a ribbon cable.
>
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't 
> find anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a 
> souped-up cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be 
> excellent of course).
>
> Thanks,
> Josh


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Sep 23 19:54:53 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:54:53 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca> <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5209997D-E793-43B2-BC93-502F921078E3@comcast.net>


> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> ...
> The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful preprocessor; 

That depends on the compiler.  I remember the PL/C compiler (from Cornell, running on IBM 370s).  In graduate school, we were forced to use it because the instructor was also the main author of that compiler.  It was used in a compiler construction class, with heavy use of macros.

That seemed fine except for one fatal flaw in the macro engine design.  PL/I has the notion of "source margins" -- source code is only processed between colums 2 and 72 (by default; those limits are settable).  The fatal flaw was that the PL/C macro processor sat before the source margin machinery, so it had to obey the source margins in doing macro expansion.

Unfortunately, it couldn't do that.  A typical result of attempting to use a complex macro was a compiler crash.  To cure it, you'd add or remove spaces from the macro call and/or the macro definition -- at which point you'd get a crash or compiler infinite loop at some other macro call.

After a few weeks of that, we convinced the instructor to drop this bogus piece of software and switch to a real compiler -- Pascal on the PDP-10.

	paul



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Sep 23 20:06:23 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:06:23 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032919E9-8EAB-4E9E-9E73-7CB2DD29A25C@aracnet.com>

Sam Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than one, but I don't think he was ever able to do anything with it.  Does it have GCOS-6 installed?

I worked on DPS-8's and GCOS-8 a lifetime ago.  I did a little with GCOS-6, mainly assisting with moving operations from DPS-6 Mini's over to HP 9000 workstations running DPS-6 emulators.

I never had any GCOS-6 doc's and my GCOS-8 doc's were sent North a couple years ago.

Zane




On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model
> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
> pictured on this site: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
> 
> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
> I gotten myself into with this thing?
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 20:24:04 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:24:04 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <384aea.543ed142.4334aab4@aol.com>

there was a nightmare!
 
 
In a message dated 9/23/2015 6:20:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
healyzh at aracnet.com writes:

Sam  Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than  one

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 20:27:03 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:27:03 -0700
Subject: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44
Message-ID: <56035167.3030403@gmail.com>

The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board 
(M7093).  I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this 
machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone 
have one going spare for sale/trade?

Thanks as always,
Josh


From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 20:29:34 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:29:34 -0500
Subject: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44
In-Reply-To: <56035167.3030403@gmail.com>
References: <56035167.3030403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMWaZe_O=_rmZdOXJ3ufJiSpsvUKfQq86WeuvQ50H9wrg@mail.gmail.com>

I've got some here. Let me find it later tonight or tomorrow and I'll
contact you off list.

Paul

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board
> (M7093).  I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this
> machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone
> have one going spare for sale/trade?
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
>

From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Wed Sep 23 20:48:59 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:48:59 -0400
Subject: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
In-Reply-To: <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
References: <01ef01d0e476$667609b0$33621d10$@net>
 <20150901131308.GF5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <020e01d0e4ca$07300a60$15901f20$@net>
 <20150901154954.GJ5694@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <002f01d0f4b3$e2151460$a63f3d20$@net>
Message-ID: <20150924014858.GZ30683@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [150921 17:24]:
> Well,
> 
> In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller
> did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to everyone
> for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested you
> can check out some quick pictures here:
> 
> http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html
> 
> The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it cleaned
> up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120.
> 
> -Ali

Nice!  Glad it arrived OK and was packed well by the seller!

Todd

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 21:05:00 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:05:00 -0400
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
Message-ID: <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>

68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
single row header bus.

Anyone recognize it?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG


From shumaker at att.net  Wed Sep 23 21:42:42 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:42:42 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56036322.4010901@att.net>

On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model
> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
> pictured on this site: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>
> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>
>    
browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of 
GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System


One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the 
cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of 
WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go 
blank, operators would loose control and a message would display 
something to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly 
once you typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release 
the system back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT 
manager who worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...

Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it 
wasn't a particularly common installed setup.

Steve


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Sep 23 22:00:46 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:00:46 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <56036322.4010901@att.net>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56036322.4010901@att.net>
Message-ID: <7F9F16AF-2C5D-477C-9EA9-700E1D517C34@aracnet.com>


On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model
>> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
>> pictured on this site: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>> 
>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>> 
>>   
> browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System
> 
> 
> One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
> 
> Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
> 
> Steve
> 

DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend.

Zane


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 22:03:47 2015
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:03:47 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <7F9F16AF-2C5D-477C-9EA9-700E1D517C34@aracnet.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56036322.4010901@att.net>
 <7F9F16AF-2C5D-477C-9EA9-700E1D517C34@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LRbu0e8K4-BPtacmdFdN6v--Nf9qdeNWu7vRtmpcngaLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

>
> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:
>
> > One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
> cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of
> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go
> blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something
> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you
> typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system
> back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who
> worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
> >
> > Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it
> wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend.
>
>
I don't know about the legend, but the cookie program originated on the
DPS-8:  http://www.multicians.org/cookie.html

-- Charles

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 23 22:04:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:04:36 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5209997D-E793-43B2-BC93-502F921078E3@comcast.net>
References: <861433323.437974.1442997563296.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <5603195F.6040205@jetnet.ab.ca> <560334C5.40102@sydex.com>
 <5209997D-E793-43B2-BC93-502F921078E3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56036844.8040006@sydex.com>

On 09/23/2015 05:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful preprocessor;
>
> That depends on the compiler.

Well, IBM did have a real PL/I compiler (after all, they invented the 
stuff)--and later, there was an ANSI PL/I.

--Chuck


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 22:43:37 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:43:37 +1200
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
In-Reply-To: <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
 <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>

That's odd.

I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
something... stab in the dark really.

Mike

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> single row header bus.
>
> Anyone recognize it?
>
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 22:53:43 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:53:43 -0500
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
 <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
 <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22vN79V_-NnipY=nL0AQZiu7pJH-1k+=vs-4q3ZTC2Zqw@mail.gmail.com>

heathkit?

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's odd.
>
> I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
> have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
> something... stab in the dark really.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> > single row header bus.
> >
> > Anyone recognize it?
> >
> >
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 00:22:59 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 23:22:59 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net>
 <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com> <56020541.90901@sydex.com>
 <56020A51.30403@charter.net> <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com>
 <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude.
> Same with long.  You do have to be able to convert between longs (and
> possibly ints) and addresses (*).  So, you make an int 5 digits (which
> matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10
> digits.  You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell.  Then
> the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical
> 2 and 4).

And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
two.

ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
basic character set
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
that fits in a byte
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
bits, which is at least 8
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
consists of bytes

ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit
patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called
"trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have
trap representations.

ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n.
ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1.

On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
representation.

If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 00:23:11 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:23:11 -0400
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22vN79V_-NnipY=nL0AQZiu7pJH-1k+=vs-4q3ZTC2Zqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
 <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
 <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22vN79V_-NnipY=nL0AQZiu7pJH-1k+=vs-4q3ZTC2Zqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuegdj6gxxuh=pfqmUkvKgvuPO-O67x-JkeMkgqJKeqpYw@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like an add on or daughter board.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 23, 2015 11:53 PM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:

> heathkit?
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's odd.
> >
> > I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
> > have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
> > something... stab in the dark really.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> > > single row header bus.
> > >
> > > Anyone recognize it?
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://www.corestore.org
> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 23 16:52:39 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:39 -0400
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...

Did you just buy this? :O

http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all --
>
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" at
> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.
>
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't find
> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
> course).
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 23 16:56:07 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:56:07 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of
the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell
machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no
> documents and have forgotten everything I knew.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
> > Dersch
> > Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
> >
> > Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> > workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
> model (a
> > badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some
> > detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very,
> > very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on
> this site:
> > http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
> >
> > Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What
> have
> > I gotten myself into with this thing?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Josh
>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Wed Sep 23 20:18:03 2015
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:18:03 +1000
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <56031104.4030702@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net> <56031104.4030702@charter.net>
Message-ID: <38f04b0e735cffb635b13834dcaee682.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with
the LastGeneratedArtifactID table.

CREATE TABLE Manual_Artifact
(
	ArtifactID INT(11) NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT,
	. . . other fields . . .
	CONSTRAINT ArtifactID_pk PRIMARY KEY (ArtifactID)
)

You'll also need similar type primary keys on your other tables, and also set up the foreign key constraints for your db integrity if you really want to go
that far for this project. Some of those tables could be coalesced to simplify the thing - as per the inane comment from the guy in Holland (or wherever)
for instance the Location and Manual_Type tables.

Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite might be a better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process ie. no external
dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the physical database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much 'lighter' db footprint.

Steve.

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design?
From:    "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net>
Date:    Thu, September 24, 2015 6:52 am
To:      cctech at classiccmp.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> If anyone cares a draft data model is visible at:
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf
>
> (It may change as I work on the design).
>
> Biggest change from earlier discussions: I found no reason not to merge
> the manuals/artifacts relationship table into the artifact table, and I
> reduced the primary key columns down to only those absolutely necessary
> to guarantee uniqueness.
>
> JRJ
>
>



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep 24 01:39:17 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:39:17 +0200
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150924063916.GA32087@Update.UU.SE>

archive.org almost has some info:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990908232518/http://www.setasi.com/DECPP.html

It's a "Super Cache". Perhaps you could track down someone from Setasi? 
See the mention here:

ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/faq/faq.pages/vendors.html

/P

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 02:40:14PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Hi all --
> 
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" at
> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.
> 
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't find
> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of course).
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 02:02:56 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:02:56 -0700
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5603A020.1060000@gmail.com>

On 9/23/15 2:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
> definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
> what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...
Yeah, I took some pictures this afternoon (a bit blurry -- it was dark 
and all I had was my cell phone, I'll try to get better pics tomorrow):

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/

>
> Did you just buy this? :O
>
> http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information
Yep :).

- Josh


>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all --
>>
>> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
>> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
>> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
>> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" at
>> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.
>>
>> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't find
>> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
>> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
>> course).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 24 02:04:59 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:04:59 -0600
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5603A09B.3050706@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
> basic character set
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
> that fits in a byte
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
> bits, which is at least 8
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes

Bla Bla  Bla ...
What happened to seven bit ASCII?
I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages
is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters
in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory
can be accessed.  char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1)

0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
level. This may not be standard C but I has the early
PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.

Ben.






From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 02:10:32 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:10:32 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5603A1E8.3060903@gmail.com>

On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of
> the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell
> machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean

Will do.  I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had 
rattled about a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok.  I'll have 
time to take some pictures this weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along 
the line someone disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to 
the boards and I've got no idea what goes where (only a couple are 
cohesively labeled.)  This thing is going to be a project.

- Josh



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 02:53:58 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 03:53:58 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <a1cb0.44c5458a.43350616@aol.com>

is it a  dps 6  or  8?
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2015 12:10:41 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
derschjo at gmail.com writes:

On  9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Ah, so these are the  vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics 
of
> the DPS-8 inside  and out; I've never really seen the innards of a 
Honeywell
> machine  before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>
>  Best,
>
> Sean

Will do.  I took the boards out to  inspect them tonight (they had 
rattled about a bit during shipment) and  everything seems ok.  I'll have 
time to take some pictures this  weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along 
the line someone  disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to 
the boards and I've  got no idea what goes where (only a couple are 
cohesively labeled.)   This thing is going to be a project.

-  Josh




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 04:20:02 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:20:02 +0100
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <5603A1E8.3060903@gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5603A1E8.3060903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <084601d0f6aa$3209f150$961dd3f0$@gmail.com>

The DPS6 is a very different animal to the GE600 -> GE6000  > Level 66 => DPS300 which were as far as I know all TTL or LSI TTL....
... The CPU was built on wire wrap boards which were around 14" or 16" square (say 35cm) and which slotted into a backplane.
.. the machines had an extensive test suite which the CE ran weekly. This could vary the voltages to the logic chips....
.. when a faulty board was found they were usually repaired on-site, there was a board tester shipped with each system to identify chip level faults.
.. this contrasts with the earlier H3200 we had which was fixed by board level repair..

The CPU and Memory were in separate cabinets, much like the 360/67 but Honeywell kept the same layout when moving from core (I think the GE6000/H6000 were core) on to D-Ram in the L66.
The CPU number and I think the RAM start addresses were all configured on switchs, so it was possible to split a Dual CPU machine into two singles for testing. 

The peripherals came from MPI a joint venture with CDC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Data_Corporation#Magnetic_Peripherals_Inc.

There are more ramblings, (not from me) here:-

http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/english/gecos_to_gcos8_part_2.htm

The GCOS-3 Control Cards and Abort Codes Pocket Guide DD04 Rev.0 is sat on my desk in the scanning queue...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
> Dersch
> Sent: 24 September 2015 08:11
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
> 
> On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of
> > pics of the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards
> > of a Honeywell machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style"
> looks like.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Sean
> 
> Will do.  I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled about
> a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok.  I'll have time to take some
> pictures this weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone
> disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've got
> no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.)  This thing is
> going to be a project.
> 
> - Josh
> 



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep 24 04:41:35 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:41:35 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS 
binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box 
upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But 
It's damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch 
of precious space.

At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what 
is not directly useful to me.


What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a 
truck and fill with dead trees?

Regards,
Pontus.

From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Thu Sep 24 04:44:23 2015
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:44:23 +1000
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <F0214D71-4B97-4CF9-9A8A-CD39406E25FE@retrocomputingtasmania.com>


> On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> ...And now my employer is throwing out box 
> upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth keeping.



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep 24 04:51:54 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:51:54 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <F0214D71-4B97-4CF9-9A8A-CD39406E25FE@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <F0214D71-4B97-4CF9-9A8A-CD39406E25FE@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
Message-ID: <20150924095154.GA9183@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 07:44:23PM +1000, Nigel Williams wrote:
> 
> > On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> > ...And now my employer is throwing out box 
> > upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
> 
> Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to 
> crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist 
> online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth 
> keeping.


It would be a lot of work. For the VMS stuff I have started indexing. I 
suppose I should run the list through manx at least. Having an automatic 
tool for that is tempting to make.

/P

From mazzinia at tin.it  Thu Sep 24 05:16:06 2015
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:16:06 +0200
Subject: R: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <006001d0f6b2$06a4f570$13eee050$@tin.it>

Crying at the prospect of the waste :( (from someone that had the chance of
saving just a set of X-Open manuals)

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pontus
Pihlgren
Inviato: gioved? 24 settembre 2015 11:42
A: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Oggetto: Regarding Manuals

Hi

I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box upon
box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But It's
damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch of
precious space.

At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what is
not directly useful to me.


What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a 
truck and fill with dead trees?

Regards,
Pontus.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Sep 24 06:10:15 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <5602E59B.9000705@sydex.com>
References: <20150923162515.4565618C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <72E099B4-35C1-4DD4-B208-B3DED2ABA8AA@aracnet.com>
 <5602E59B.9000705@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201509241110.HAA04206@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Well, there are plenty of word-but-not-byte/character addressable
> machines out there, which makes life interesting for the likes of C.

C is able to support them just fine, though a whole lot of C code isn't
(beacuse it assumes things like "all pointers are the same size", or
even more specifically, "all pointers are just memory addresses").

Such machines typically just have void * and char * occupying more
space than pointers to word-and-larger types.

> One thing that I've wondered about is "does the current HLL-du-juor
> dictate processor architecture?"--and not the reverse.

Dictate, probably not quite.  Influence, certainly.

> Does anyone consider a machine that doesn't implement any sort of
> hardware stack, for example, a marketplace contender?

I don't, for the simple reason that I don't know of any that aren't, by
today's standards, ludicrously slow.

If a hypothetical machine were to be released that didn't have stack
support of some sort in hardware (even if just autodecrement and
autoincrement addressing modes - for example, the Super-H)?  I'd want
to know what it had that made its maker think it worth making despite
that.

However, I have trouble imagining a machine on which it is difficult to
implement a stack.  Even the machines of old which "didn't have stacks"
generally had (what we would today call) addressing modes that made it
possible to implement them without too much pain.  (What they usually
didn't have was an easy way to get procedure call return addresses onto
the stack, like one I remember hearing of whose call instruction stored
the return address just before the beginning of the called procedure.
While I don't know any such machines well enough to be sure, I would
imagine a return stack could be maintained there by slightly
complicating the procedurecall and return sequences - in this crowd,
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong! :-)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 07:35:54 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 05:35:54 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>

On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
> binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box
> upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
>

I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just 
uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products that
I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old.




From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Sep 24 07:53:15 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:53:15 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 05:35:54AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> >Hi
> >
> >I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
> >binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box
> >upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
> >
> 
> I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just
> uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products
> that
> I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old.
> 

I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that old enough?

/P

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Sep 24 08:16:20 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:16:20 -0400
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5603A09B.3050706@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <5603A09B.3050706@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5603F7A4.60808@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-24 3:04 AM, ben wrote:
> On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
>> basic character set
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
>> that fits in a byte
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
>> bits, which is at least 8
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
>> consists of bytes
>
> Bla Bla  Bla ...
> What happened to seven bit ASCII?
> I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages
> is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters
> in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory
> can be accessed.  char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1)

Depends on the Pascal. Apple chose (Object) Pascal as its principal 
systems and applications programming language for at least a decade 
(Lisa, 68K Mac, etc), and its memory addressing capabilities, in 
particular byte arrays, were equivalent to C's. Many other Pascals had 
similar extensions (I seem to recall Turbo Pascal did).

--Toby


>
> 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
> 5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
> Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
> level. This may not be standard C but I has the early
> PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.
>
> Ben.
>
>
>
>
>
>


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 09:06:51 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:06:51 -0400
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net> <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
 <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F@310e2>

Found a few more boards; I guess the displays, 
optocouplers and surge suppressors suggest an 
industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or 
limited production.

Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more 
often for a bus instead of presumably more 
expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some 
(CDC?) boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins 
plugging into sockets on the backplane.

https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCKq4r5zr3fjGiwE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Ross" <tmfdmike at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form
factor?


> That's odd.
>
> I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of
> something that might
> have belonged in a terminal or keyboard...
> character generator or
> something... stab in the dark really.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
>> single row header bus.
>>
>> Anyone recognize it?
>>
>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his
> life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will
> ever know or see.'


From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 24 10:00:47 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:00:47 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5604101F.2090207@charter.net>

On 9/24/2015 12:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>> An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude.
>> Same with long.  You do have to be able to convert between longs (and
>> possibly ints) and addresses (*).  So, you make an int 5 digits (which
>> matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10
>> digits.  You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell.  Then
>> the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical
>> 2 and 4).
> 
> And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
> bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
> being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
> 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
> two.
> 
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
> basic character set
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
> that fits in a byte
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
> bits, which is at least 8
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes
> 
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
> have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit
> patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called
> "trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have
> trap representations.
> 
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
> range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n.
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
> range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1.
> 
> On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
> arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
> each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
> accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
> be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
> representation.

I don't *have* to do any such thing.

> 
> If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
> unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
> only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
> can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.
> 

It does not *have* to be six digits.

You seem to be supposing that I said one could/would implement ANSI/ISO
C on a 1410 in native code (as opposed to some kind of binary
threaded-code simulator that has been suggested).  I did not.  I said C,
and by that I meant something presumably contemporary with the machine
in its last years.  I would not suggest that one would implement
ANSI/ISO C on such a machine, any more than I would expect to implement
current versions of FORTRAN on such a machine.  Heck, there wasn't even
a FORTRAN IV for the 1410.

I would expect a char to be 6 or 7 bits on a 1410 - one storage
character, rather than 8 (one could conceivably use the word-mark for a
char bit to get 7 bits, and it would make some sense to do so, but if
abused (say, by accessing an int as char [5]) could result in a wordmark
in the middle of an int, which it would be good to avoid if at all
possible to avoid having to move integer types to an intermediate
storage location using record marks to terminate the move rather than
wordmarks).

An int would be 5 characters long.

If one goes back to the definition of C in "The C Programming Language",
then one sees a less restrictive specification the the contemporary
ANSI/ISO specification.  The restrictions of ANSI/ISO C came later
because of things that folks tended to assume and do in their C programs
because of the hardware it typically ran on, i.e., that chars were
capable of holding 8 bit binary numbers.

"Objects declared as characters (char) are large enough to store any
member of the implementation's character set, and if a genuine character
from that character set is stored in a character variable, its *value*
is *equivalent* to the integer code for that character.  Other values
may be stored into character variables, but the implementation is
machine-dependent."  (asterisk emphasis added).

"Equivalent" is extremely important here, as it frees one from the
notion of it having to be the exact same bit representation.  It means
that if you cast from char to int (access it as a value), or pass a char
as a formal parameter, the int gets the value of the character as a set
of bits, and vice versa.  It does NOT require that the int be the
*identical* bits as the char.

Common practice is, of course, to use chars to store small, but still
useful, integer values, in this case, -32 to +31 (6 bits) or -64 to +63
(7 bits)).  Would this break some programs that assume a char can hold
values from -127 to 127?  Of course.  Would those programs be "fixable"
to the extent that they were not dependent upon machine I/O hardware and
the like?  Yes, they should be.

""Plain" integers have the natural size suggested by the host machine
architecture".

Thus one would end up with a C char type which is only slightly
different from FORTRAN CHARACTER variables, but which can still store
small integer values in the spirit of C.

Enough already.

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 24 10:11:16 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:11:16 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5603A09B.3050706@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <5603A09B.3050706@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <56041294.1060803@charter.net>

On 9/24/2015 2:04 AM, ben wrote:
> On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
> 5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
> Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
> level. 

On a 1410 (or 1401) 0-63 can hold the entire character set using
char/int conversion instead of storing chars as their native bits, and
then we have 5 digits per int as the native integer size (size of an
address).

0-127 would be required to hold a character with a work mark bit, which
I think one would probably want to make available at a character level,
but try and avoid having them set inside of ints.

Also, on a 1410 or a 1401 with the right optional features, bitwise
operations (bitwise &^|) could still be carried out on a binary level
without undue difficulty.

As you say, logic operations (&&, ||) would presumably use int 0 and 1 -
but could still be carried out on a binary level.

>This may not be standard C but I has the early
> PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.
> 
> Ben.
> 

Precisely.


JRJ

From chrise at pobox.com  Thu Sep 24 10:23:55 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:23:55 -0500
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
In-Reply-To: <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F@310e2>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
 <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
 <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F@310e2>
Message-ID: <20150924152355.GQ4403@n0jcf.net>

On Thursday (09/24/2015 at 10:06AM -0400), Mike Stein wrote:
> Found a few more boards; I guess the displays, optocouplers and surge
> suppressors suggest an industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or
> limited production.
> 
> Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more often for a bus instead
> of presumably more expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some (CDC?)
> boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins plugging into sockets on the
> backplane.
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCKq4r5zr3fjGiwE

Those are the same connectors used on the Heathkit H8 and H89 backplanes
but those are definitely not cards that plug into the backplane of either
of those machines.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 24 11:06:25 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com>
 <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240856460.309@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
> And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
> bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
> being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
> 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
> two.
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1  . . .
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 . . . 
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 . . . 
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
> On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
> arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
> each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
> accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
> be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
> representation.
> If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
> unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
> only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
> can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.

The original "challenge" just said "C".
THAT is all ANSI C.
K&R C did not have those limitations.  If you wanted to build a C with a 7 
bit short, a 13 bit int, and a 19 bit long, it was OK.
Only limits were that the sizeof an int couldn't be smaller than the size 
of a short, sizeof a long couldn't be less than that of an int, etc.

I am not claiming that I could create a C compiler for 1401/1410, but 
these restrictions only preclude ANSI C.
Note: I am also not saying that doing so would be a good idea.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Sep 24 11:08:44 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <a1cb0.44c5458a.43350616@aol.com>
References: <a1cb0.44c5458a.43350616@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240907080.309@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> is it a    dps 6    or    8?

I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that 
causes you to press the spacebar.
But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner.




From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 11:55:41 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:55:41 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <aaf55.450df234.4335850b@aol.com>

pretty  funny!
 
maybe  I  should  be  fortunate enough to have his  salary also!?
#ed
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2015 9:08:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cisin at xenosoft.com writes:

On Thu,  24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> is it a    dps  6    or    8?

I am actually sincerely sorry that  you are having another migraine that 
causes you to press the  spacebar.
But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William  Shatner.





From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Sep 24 11:59:59 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:59:59 -0400
Subject: Non-ANSI & Embedded C - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self
 modifying code
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240856460.309@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240856460.309@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56042C0F.9040201@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-24 12:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
>> And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
>> bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
>> being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
>> 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
>> two.
>> ...
>
> The original "challenge" just said "C".
> THAT is all ANSI C.
> K&R C did not have those limitations.  If you wanted to build a C with a
> 7 bit short, a 13 bit int, and a 19 bit long, it was OK.
> Only limits were that the sizeof an int couldn't be smaller than the
> size of a short, sizeof a long couldn't be less than that of an int, etc.
>
> I am not claiming that I could create a C compiler for 1401/1410, but
> these restrictions only preclude ANSI C.
> Note: I am also not saying that doing so would be a good idea.
>
>

We don't have to reach back into the past for examples, either: Embedded 
processors often have unabashedly non-ANSI C compilers with "unusual" 
features and built-in types. One that I've used is Microchip PIC C.

--Toby


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 14:05:03 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:05:03 -0600
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
In-Reply-To: <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F@310e2>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net>
 <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B@310e2>
 <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQVixu07eHYLJy=qyPM_tER14svOrL2=FfCa4ayHaKjMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more often for a bus instead
> of presumably more expensive edge connectors;

Lower cost is why that style of connector was chosen by SWTPC for the
SS-50 bus, and by Ohio Scientific for their bus, though the board in
your photo clearly doesn't match either of those.

> I think I do have some (CDC?)
> boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins plugging into sockets on the
> backplane.

Interesting. With that style of connector, it's relatively easy for
the male pins to get damages, and not so much for the sockets. The
"backwards" approach has the advantage of protecting the backplane
pins better, since those are harder to replace.

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 24 14:13:54 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:13:54 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <38f04b0e735cffb635b13834dcaee682.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <6a0e9100fd987c10eea648ba555a60f2.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <5602B468.9040704@charter.net> <56031104.4030702@charter.net>
 <38f04b0e735cffb635b13834dcaee682.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <56044B72.3040608@charter.net>

On 9/23/2015 8:18 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote:

> Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with
> the LastGeneratedArtifactID table.
> 
> CREATE TABLE Manual_Artifact
> (
> 	ArtifactID INT(11) NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT,
> 	. . . other fields . . .
> 	CONSTRAINT ArtifactID_pk PRIMARY KEY (ArtifactID)
> )
> 

Because my artifact ID's are not always just numbers.  In some cases
they may already be marked on an artifact (though typically not for
manuals - but this is just the first of a set of such projects, and they
*are* marked on many of my computer boards).

> You'll also need similar type primary keys on your other tables, and also set up the foreign key constraints for your db integrity if you really want to go
> that far for this project. Some of those tables could be coalesced to simplify the thing - as per the inane comment from the guy in Holland (or wherever)
> for instance the Location and Manual_Type tables.

No, I don't need made up primary keys.  The other tables have the keys
they need to guarantee uniqueness - in some cases the PK is made of up
two or more columns.  I seriously dislike the current fad of inventing
such keys when they are not needed.

Those you mention and a few more FK constraints are there.  Some of the
tables, like Location and Manual_Type also exist to populate pull down
lists without having to read through larger tables to populate them

> 
> Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite might be a better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process ie. no external
> dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the physical database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much 'lighter' db footprint.
> 

As I mentioned in another response, I truly dislike SQLite, based on my
experience with it on my Garmin GPS.

JRJ

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Thu Sep 24 14:12:59 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:12:59 +0000
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <5604101F.2090207@charter.net>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604101F.2090207@charter.net>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBDB3E9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Jay Jaeger
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:01 AM

> You seem to be supposing that I said one could/would implement ANSI/ISO C
> on a 1410 in native code

  [snip]

> I would not suggest that one would implement ANSI/ISO C on such a machine,
> any more than I would expect to implement current versions of FORTRAN on
> such a machine.  Heck, there wasn't even a FORTRAN IV for the 1410.

Wasn't there?  I realize that the 1410 was not code compatible with the 1401,
but the architectures are similar enough that I would expect them to have
similar compilers.  I know that the 1401 had a FORTRAN IV compiler, because
that was my first computer and first language, back in the spring of 1969.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 24 15:10:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:10:10 -0700
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBDB3E9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604101F.2090207@charter.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBDB3E9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <560458A2.3040000@sydex.com>

On 09/24/2015 12:12 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

> Wasn't there?  I realize that the 1410 was not code compatible with
> the 1401, but the architectures are similar enough that I would
> expect them to have similar compilers.  I know that the 1401 had a
> FORTRAN IV compiler, because that was my first computer and first
> language, back in the spring of 1969.

It's a bit complicated.  There were actually two standards:  X3.9-1966 
and X3.10-1966.  Exactly contemporaneous; one is "USA Standard FORTRAN" 
and the other "USA Standard Basic FORTRAN"; the latter intended for 
smaller machines, so the list of features is reduced.  Both were ANSI 
FORTRAN.

S/360 had compilers for both varieties.  The 1410/7010 FORTRAN described 
in C28-0328-1 on first glance, appears to comply with ANSI Basic 
FORTRAN.  Certainly more F66-like than, say, 7090 FORTRAN II or 1620 
FORTRAN II.  No "READ INPUT TAPE"  nonsense, nor punching "B" in column 
1 to get logical expressions.

Both the usual and the basic varieties of FORTRAN are mentioned here:

http://www.eah-jena.de/~kleine/history/languages/ansi-x3dot9-1966-Fortran66.pdf

The surprising thing is how spare the ANSI document is:  36 pages, 
including appendices.

Compare to, say, F95...

--Chuck


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 08:47:18 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 06:47:18 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>



On 9/24/15 5:53 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

>
> I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that old enough?
>

Yes, 4.1.x is what I am looking for in particular. I have most of 3.0 - 
4.1 covered, and any products that I don't have there, in particular a 
clean copy of the NeWS and Open Windows manuals. There are a bunch of
communications products, and things like the VME PC emulator board too.

I put part number and dates in the file names, so they are easy to dupe 
check.



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Thu Sep 24 09:11:36 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:11:36 -0400
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>

 >Al Kossow wrote:

> >On 9/24/15 5:53 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>
>> I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that 
>> old enough?
>
> Yes, 4.1.x is what I am looking for in particular. I have most of 3.0 
> - 4.1 covered, and any products that I don't have there, in particular 
> a clean copy of the NeWS and Open Windows manuals. There are a bunch of
> communications products, and things like the VME PC emulator board too.
>
> I put part number and dates in the file names, so they are easy to 
> dupe check.

There seems to be some interest in filling in the different versions
of these SUN computer manuals.

I though that perhaps there might also be some interest in the
DOC set of manuals for various versions of RT-11 and TSX-Plus.

While I understand that a number of individuals would appreciate
their own dead tree versions, before they arrive at that good
home of an interested individual, would there be any interest
in adding them the bitsavers archive?  From memory, I suspect
that there is:

RT-11:
(a)  Various pieces of V2 and V3, most of the pages from V04.00
(b)  Probably complete DOC sets for V05.02, V05.04G, V05.05

TSX-Plus:
(a)  V6.31 in a binder
(b)  V6.5 as ONLY loose sheets

There has already been interest expressed in having the dead tree
version of the V05.05 RT-11  DOC set, but I just wanted to be sure
that other individuals who may be interested in having PDF files for
V05.05 and older versions of RT-11 know about the possibility.

As for TSX-Plus, I don't see a PDF of V6.5 being available.  I would like
to keep the dead tree version of the V6.5 TSX-Plus  DOC set manuals
available for myself until I no longer need them, but perhaps arrangements
might be made to have them scanned into PDF files and returned.

I have other RT-11 manuals as well and some PDP-11 hardware manuals,
but probably most are already in PDF files at bitsavers.

Jerome Fine

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Sep 24 11:54:24 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:54:24 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <56036322.4010901@att.net>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56036322.4010901@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXffeMtTgcekPdTNBXSttKfJhhN7HoDP6V=g1MsgPLXpQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think this anecdote is also referenced in the AFDC installation site
story on multicians.org? Sounds familiar...

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
>> model
>> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
>> pictured on this site:
>> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>
>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>
>>
>>
> browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of
> GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System
>
>
> One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
> cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of
> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go
> blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something
> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you
> typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system
> back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who
> worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
>
> Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it
> wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
>
> Steve
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu Sep 24 11:58:27 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:58:27 -0400
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <5603A020.1060000@gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5603A020.1060000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV0A0NoZoK-MQ5o3pRi3JR0Eo4rjQhSLY-fWyaDCGthsA@mail.gmail.com>

Nice score; the system looks pretty loaded! I checked out the pictures and
I believe the "SC44" board is indeed simply a cache memory ... no VLSI or
bit-slices on there to imply any compute capability. The "1501" board is
just a little stub with a few bus driver ICs on it; looks like they are
running lines from the private interconnect ribbon cable, back to the
Unibus.

Best,

Sean




On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/23/15 2:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
>> definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
>> what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...
>>
> Yeah, I took some pictures this afternoon (a bit blurry -- it was dark and
> all I had was my cell phone, I'll try to get better pics tomorrow):
>
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/
>
>
>> Did you just buy this? :O
>>
>> http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information
>>
> Yep :).
>
> - Josh
>
>
>
>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all --
>>>
>>> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
>>> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
>>> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
>>> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051"
>>> at
>>> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon
>>> cable.
>>>
>>> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't
>>> find
>>> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
>>> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
>>> course).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Josh
>>>
>>>
>

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 16:38:22 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:38:22 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <b2659.e745372.4335c74e@aol.com>

dps 8  was a phx  ax   big  H  project   as I remember 
but new enough  that I would have stored manuals  rather  than
had  them in active  reference section. will  keep   eyes  out!   -Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2015 1:43:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
scaron at umich.edu writes:

I think  this anecdote is also referenced in the AFDC installation site
story on  multicians.org? Sounds familiar...

Best,

Sean



On  Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net>  wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
>
>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a  Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up  much information specific to this
>> model
>> (a badge on  the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>>  some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it  
up
>> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6  unit
>> pictured on this site:
>>  http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>
>>  Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?   What 
have
>> I gotten myself into with this  thing?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  Josh
>>
>>
>>
> browse here and elsewhere for  WWMMCCS history and beginnings of
> GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell  6000
>
>  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System
>
>
>  One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
>  cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation  of
> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console  would go
> blank, operators would loose control and a message would  display 
something
> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed  me".  Supposedly once you
> typed in one of several cookie names,  the routine would release the 
system
> back to the operator.    I personally know a retired AF IT manager who
> worked WWMMCCS and  swears its a true story...
>
> Suspect you will find very little  material other than what Al has - it
> wasn't a particularly common  installed setup.
>
>  Steve
>
>


From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Sep 24 16:41:15 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:41:15 -0500
Subject: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBDB3E9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <56005A78.2010506@sydex.com>
 <016601d0f4ad$619022e0$24b068a0$@gmail.com> <560077C1.6080304@sydex.com>
 <088E03E3-0714-4BDA-B088-B7C651C11F48@comcast.net>
 <5600A3B2.7060903@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CABYXGGjKnjqM1nCQ5sHJhjz-DQVE6QcY0+q_7WWXTKLak4+8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <560199B4.4050104@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509221305140.24012@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150922202237.GA91685@night.db.net>
 <73AAF099-1030-4804-962F-53F3AE00D0D1@comcast.net>
 <20150922204952.GB91824@night.db.net> <560200F1.8020906@pico-systems.com>
 <56020541.90901@sydex.com> <56020A51.30403@charter.net>
 <56020DB6.4070105@sydex.com> <56022561.2040606@charter.net>
 <201509231410.KAA06569@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5602B7A0.8020600@charter.net>
 <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604101F.2090207@charter.net>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBDB3E9@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <56046DFB.2010705@charter.net>

On 9/24/2015 2:12 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Jay Jaeger
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:01 AM
> 
>> You seem to be supposing that I said one could/would implement ANSI/ISO C
>> on a 1410 in native code
> 
>   [snip]
> 
>> I would not suggest that one would implement ANSI/ISO C on such a machine,
>> any more than I would expect to implement current versions of FORTRAN on
>> such a machine.  Heck, there wasn't even a FORTRAN IV for the 1410.
> 
> Wasn't there?  I realize that the 1410 was not code compatible with the 1401,
> but the architectures are similar enough that I would expect them to have
> similar compilers.  I know that the 1401 had a FORTRAN IV compiler, because
> that was my first computer and first language, back in the spring of 1969.
> 
>                                                                 Rich

Nope, there was no FORTRAN IV for the 1410.  But yes, there was indeed
one for the 1401.

From mark at markesystems.com  Thu Sep 24 16:57:25 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:57:25 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5CF57384189043FC852C6617082A25E7@Daedalus>

> I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that
> causes you to press the spacebar.
> But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner.

SNORT!!!

(I had the fun of performing his version of Common People for a while with 
our power-pop band - it was a real blast!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyNdjRX9mQ

~~
Mark Moulding


From mark at markesystems.com  Thu Sep 24 16:37:29 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:37:29 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <350816660C674058A167CF8D25742C53@Daedalus>

>> I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project,
>> but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end?  If
>
>No, I would not consider it.  I have experience with it on my Garmin GPS
>unit.  I really dislike it.

Wow - I'm quite surprised at that.  It is in *everything*: Android, iOS, 
FireFox, Chrome, - the list goes far on.  Personally, I've never used it on 
an embedded platform, although I'm certainly keeping it in my back pocket 
for the time when I need an embedded database.  What problems have you 
experienced?

I have used it on PC platforms, and have been quite impressed with how 
robust the database structure is.  It's all contained in one file, and it's 
an in-process library, not a server.  This makes it not-as-good for 
massively multi-user stuff, but *much* easier to administer; no daemons to 
manage, and just one database file (like Access, but better).

I use it for industrial automation applications, and have tested it a lot to 
see if I could corrupt the database.  Basically,  unless I deliberately 
mangled the container file, I couldn't get it to fail non-gracefully, even 
by turning of the power while writing the file.  (This was not a full, 
rigorous failure study, but I've got a lot of them out there now, and 
although I get plenty of support calls a screwed-up database is never the 
root cause.)

Just my experience...
~~
Mark Moulding

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:09:42 -0500
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <56032326.30504 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 9/23/2015 4:27 PM, ben wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote:
>>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
>>
>> ?
>>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features
>>> of the underlying machine to the programmer.
>>
>> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the
>> underlying
>> machine.
>
> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
> Ben.
>
>

Yes, STAGE2 and friends pretty well faded out when LR grammars and
parsers and parser generators became more widely understood and used.

JRJ


------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:15:10 +0100
From: Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <5603327E.3080107 at ntlworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: tony duell
>
>      > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program
>      > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton 
> sets.
>
> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on 
> the
> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, 
> and
> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two
> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in 
> the
> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban 
> legend?
>
>

I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the
ODS-1 disk format
was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of
VMS. I *think*
that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting
could
be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot
block in
a way that each was happy with.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org


------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:24:53 -0700
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <560334C5.40102 at sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote:

> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
> Ben.

It depends.  One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture,
complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in
macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small
emulator for the devised machine.

After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate
native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions.

A way to get certain tasks done very quickly.

The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful
preprocessor; some assemblers were similarly versatile. For example,
I've used an assembler that boasted support of arrays of structures of
user-defined data types.  Now that was a macro facility.

--Chuck



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:29:37 -0500
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <560335E1.4070607 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 9/23/2015 6:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away.
>> Ben.
>
> It depends.  One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture,
> complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in
> macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small
> emulator for the devised machine.
>
> After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate
> native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions.
>
> A way to get certain tasks done very quickly.
>

Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2.

JRJ


------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:38:34 +0100
From: Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <560337FA.70404 at ntlworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 21/09/15 01:55, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>
> I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used
> with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows.  I found that
> for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63)
> on the CD were empty.  I don't know if that area is reserved for boot
> code
> under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the
> CD to be bootable under Windows.

I did something very similar (or rather, used someone else's code to do
something
very similar) with ODS-2 under OpenVMS and ISO9660 (which is what Windows
uses for CD media iirc).

As you say, ISO9660 leaves the first 16 (or thereabouts) 2048 byte
blocks undefined.
ODS-2, on the other hand, uses them. So the code builds an ISO9660 CD
and then
overlays the ODS-2 structure on top. It finds the ISO9660 directory
structures and
arranges for them to live in BADBLK.SYS so VMS is happy enough when
mounting the
media. All the ODS-2 structures get packed into the beginning of the
image so anything
looking at the ISO9660 side sees nothing untoward. This only works well
for filetypes
that have no special structure under ODS-2: basically CR-LF text files
and binary
formats (such as PDF). I still have a CD that I built this way many
moons ago.

I remember reading a message in one of the EASYnet NOTES conferences
(inside DEC) which more or less said that ISO9660 leaving those initial
blocks
free wasn't a coincidence and that DEC's representative (Andy Goldstein
perhaps)
had pushed for that.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:57:22 -0700
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <56033C62.9040804 at sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 09/23/2015 04:29 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2.

The first time I did this was for translating COBOL to a special-purpose
dialect.  Not a simple lexical task--it was a full-blown two-pass affair.

The initial test versions of the thing were very, very slow.  Once the
native-code version was rolled out, it was very, very fast.  Development
time was pretty fast.

--Chuck






------------------------------

Message: 27
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:36:13 +0200
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <5603457D.2070703 at update.uu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 2015-09-24 01:15, Antonio Carlini wrote:
> On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>      > From: tony duell
>>
>>      > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code
>> program
>>      > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton
>> sets.
>>
>> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_
>> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block
>> on the
>> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end
>> machine, and
>> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the
>> two
>> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code
>> (in the
>> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban
>> legend?
>>
>>
>
> I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the
> ODS-1 disk format
> was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of
> VMS. I *think*
> that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting
> could
> be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot
> block in
> a way that each was happy with.

I think that is incorrect, since early VMS didn't havea  boot block. The
VAX-11/780 was always booted from the PDP-11, and it started with VMB.
VMB was gotten from the FE, and VMB in turn understood the file system.

It wasn't until the VAX-11/750 that DEC did a VAX that used boot blocks.
And then, of course, the boot block is just the first block(s) on the
disk. Don't matter what file system you might have...

Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


------------------------------

Message: 28
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:23 -0700
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
Message-ID: <56034947.1090007 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

FYI, I've thrown up a couple of (cell phone) photos of the SC44 boards here:

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/

I'll have the machine home in a few days and I'll be able to take better
pictures then...

- Josh


On 9/23/15 2:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Hi all --
>
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the
> place of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height
> labeled "1051" at the end of the first backplane.  The two are
> connected via a ribbon cable.
>
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't
> find anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a
> souped-up cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be
> excellent of course).
>
> Thanks,
> Josh



------------------------------

Message: 29
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:54:53 -0400
From: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <5209997D-E793-43B2-BC93-502F921078E3 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> ...
> The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful 
> preprocessor;

That depends on the compiler.  I remember the PL/C compiler (from Cornell, 
running on IBM 370s).  In graduate school, we were forced to use it because 
the instructor was also the main author of that compiler.  It was used in a 
compiler construction class, with heavy use of macros.

That seemed fine except for one fatal flaw in the macro engine design.  PL/I 
has the notion of "source margins" -- source code is only processed between 
colums 2 and 72 (by default; those limits are settable).  The fatal flaw was 
that the PL/C macro processor sat before the source margin machinery, so it 
had to obey the source margins in doing macro expansion.

Unfortunately, it couldn't do that.  A typical result of attempting to use a 
complex macro was a compiler crash.  To cure it, you'd add or remove spaces 
from the macro call and/or the macro definition -- at which point you'd get 
a crash or compiler infinite loop at some other macro call.

After a few weeks of that, we convinced the instructor to drop this bogus 
piece of software and switch to a real compiler -- Pascal on the PDP-10.

paul




------------------------------

Message: 30
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:06:23 -0700
From: Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <032919E9-8EAB-4E9E-9E73-7CB2DD29A25C at aracnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Sam Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than one, but I don't think he 
was ever able to do anything with it.  Does it have GCOS-6 installed?

I worked on DPS-8's and GCOS-8 a lifetime ago.  I did a little with GCOS-6, 
mainly assisting with moving operations from DPS-6 Mini's over to HP 9000 
workstations running DPS-6 emulators.

I never had any GCOS-6 doc's and my GCOS-8 doc's were sent North a couple 
years ago.

Zane




On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this 
> model
> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
> pictured on this site: 
> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>
> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh



------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:24:04 -0400
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <384aea.543ed142.4334aab4 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

there was a nightmare!


In a message dated 9/23/2015 6:20:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
healyzh at aracnet.com writes:

Sam  Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than  one


------------------------------

Message: 32
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:27:03 -0700
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44
Message-ID: <56035167.3030403 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board
(M7093).  I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this
machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone
have one going spare for sale/trade?

Thanks as always,
Josh



------------------------------

Message: 33
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:29:34 -0500
From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44
Message-ID:
<CACwhfuMWaZe_O=_rmZdOXJ3ufJiSpsvUKfQq86WeuvQ50H9wrg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I've got some here. Let me find it later tonight or tomorrow and I'll
contact you off list.

Paul

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board
> (M7093).  I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this
> machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone
> have one going spare for sale/trade?
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 34
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:48:59 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items
Message-ID: <20150924014858.GZ30683 at ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

* Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [150921 17:24]:
> Well,
>
> In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller
> did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to 
> everyone
> for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested 
> you
> can check out some quick pictures here:
>
> http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html
>
> The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it 
> cleaned
> up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120.
>
> -Ali

Nice!  Glad it arrived OK and was packed well by the seller!

Todd


------------------------------

Message: 35
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:05:00 -0400
From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID: <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B at 310e2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original

68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
single row header bus.

Anyone recognize it?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG



------------------------------

Message: 36
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:42:42 -0700
From: steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <56036322.4010901 at att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this 
> model
> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
> pictured on this site: 
> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>
> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>
>
browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of
GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System


One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of
WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go
blank, operators would loose control and a message would display
something to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly
once you typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release
the system back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT
manager who worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...

Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it
wasn't a particularly common installed setup.

Steve



------------------------------

Message: 37
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:00:46 -0700
From: Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <7F9F16AF-2C5D-477C-9EA9-700E1D517C34 at aracnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this 
>> model
>> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
>> pictured on this site: 
>> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>
>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What 
>> have
>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>
>>
> browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of 
> GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System
>
>
> One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the 
> cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of 
> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go 
> blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something 
> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you 
> typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system 
> back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who 
> worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
>
> Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it 
> wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
>
> Steve
>

DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend.

Zane



------------------------------

Message: 38
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:03:47 -0700
From: Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID:
<CANV78LRbu0e8K4-BPtacmdFdN6v--Nf9qdeNWu7vRtmpcngaLQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

>
> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:
>
> > One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
> cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of
> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go
> blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something
> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you
> typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system
> back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who
> worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
> >
> > Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it
> wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend.
>
>
I don't know about the legend, but the cookie program originated on the
DPS-8:  http://www.multicians.org/cookie.html

-- Charles


------------------------------

Message: 39
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:04:36 -0700
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <56036844.8040006 at sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On 09/23/2015 05:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> The C macro facility barely qualifies as such.  PL/I had a wonderful 
>> preprocessor;
>
> That depends on the compiler.

Well, IBM did have a real PL/I compiler (after all, they invented the
stuff)--and later, there was an ANSI PL/I.

--Chuck



------------------------------

Message: 40
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:43:37 +1200
From: Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID:
<CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

That's odd.

I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
something... stab in the dark really.

Mike

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> single row header bus.
>
> Anyone recognize it?
>
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'


------------------------------

Message: 41
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:53:43 -0500
From: Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID:
<CAA3rs22vN79V_-NnipY=nL0AQZiu7pJH-1k+=vs-4q3ZTC2Zqw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

heathkit?

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's odd.
>
> I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
> have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
> something... stab in the dark really.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> > single row header bus.
> >
> > Anyone recognize it?
> >
> >
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>


------------------------------

Message: 42
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 23:22:59 -0600
From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID:
<CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude.
> Same with long.  You do have to be able to convert between longs (and
> possibly ints) and addresses (*).  So, you make an int 5 digits (which
> matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10
> digits.  You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell.  Then
> the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical
> 2 and 4).

And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
two.

ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
basic character set
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
that fits in a byte
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
bits, which is at least 8
ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
consists of bytes

ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit
patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called
"trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have
trap representations.

ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n.
ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1.

On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
representation.

If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.


------------------------------

Message: 43
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:23:11 -0400
From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID:
<CABGJBuegdj6gxxuh=pfqmUkvKgvuPO-O67x-JkeMkgqJKeqpYw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Looks like an add on or daughter board.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 23, 2015 11:53 PM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:

> heathkit?
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's odd.
> >
> > I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might
> > have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or
> > something... stab in the dark really.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
> > > single row header bus.
> > >
> > > Anyone recognize it?
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://www.corestore.org
> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >
>


------------------------------

Message: 44
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:39 -0400
From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
Message-ID:
<CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...

Did you just buy this? :O

http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all --
>
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" 
> at
> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.
>
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't 
> find
> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
> course).
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>


------------------------------

Message: 45
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:56:07 -0400
From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID:
<CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of
the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell
machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no
> documents and have forgotten everything I knew.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
> > Dersch
> > Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
> >
> > Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
> > workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
> model (a
> > badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
> some
> > detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
> (it's very,
> > very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on
> this site:
> > http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
> >
> > Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What
> have
> > I gotten myself into with this thing?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Josh
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 46
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:18:03 +1000
From: steven at malikoff.com
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design?
Message-ID:
<38f04b0e735cffb635b13834dcaee682.squirrel at webmail04.register.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8

Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the 
conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with
the LastGeneratedArtifactID table.

CREATE TABLE Manual_Artifact
(
ArtifactID INT(11) NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT,
. . . other fields . . .
CONSTRAINT ArtifactID_pk PRIMARY KEY (ArtifactID)
)

You'll also need similar type primary keys on your other tables, and also 
set up the foreign key constraints for your db integrity if you really want 
to go
that far for this project. Some of those tables could be coalesced to 
simplify the thing - as per the inane comment from the guy in Holland (or 
wherever)
for instance the Location and Manual_Type tables.

Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite might be a 
better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process ie. no external
dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the physical 
database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much 'lighter' db 
footprint.

Steve.

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design?
From:    "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net>
Date:    Thu, September 24, 2015 6:52 am
To:      cctech at classiccmp.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> If anyone cares a draft data model is visible at:
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf
>
> (It may change as I work on the design).
>
> Biggest change from earlier discussions: I found no reason not to merge
> the manuals/artifacts relationship table into the artifact table, and I
> reduced the primary key columns down to only those absolutely necessary
> to guarantee uniqueness.
>
> JRJ
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 47
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:39:17 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
Message-ID: <20150924063916.GA32087 at Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

archive.org almost has some info:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990908232518/http://www.setasi.com/DECPP.html

It's a "Super Cache". Perhaps you could track down someone from Setasi?
See the mention here:

ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/faq/faq.pages/vendors.html

/P

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 02:40:14PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Hi all --
>
> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" 
> at
> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon cable.
>
> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't 
> find
> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of 
> course).
>
> Thanks,
> Josh


------------------------------

Message: 48
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:02:56 -0700
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
Message-ID: <5603A020.1060000 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 9/23/15 2:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
> definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
> what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...
Yeah, I took some pictures this afternoon (a bit blurry -- it was dark
and all I had was my cell phone, I'll try to get better pics tomorrow):

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/

>
> Did you just buy this? :O
>
> http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information
Yep :).

- Josh


>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all --
>>
>> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
>> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
>> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
>> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" 
>> at
>> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon 
>> cable.
>>
>> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't 
>> find
>> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
>> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
>> course).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>



------------------------------

Message: 49
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:04:59 -0600
From: ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <5603A09B.3050706 at jetnet.ab.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
> basic character set
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
> that fits in a byte
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
> bits, which is at least 8
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes

Bla Bla  Bla ...
What happened to seven bit ASCII?
I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages
is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters
in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory
can be accessed.  char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1)

0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
level. This may not be standard C but I has the early
PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.

Ben.







------------------------------

Message: 50
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:10:32 -0700
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <5603A1E8.3060903 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of
> the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a 
> Honeywell
> machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean

Will do.  I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had
rattled about a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok.  I'll have
time to take some pictures this weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along
the line someone disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to
the boards and I've got no idea what goes where (only a couple are
cohesively labeled.)  This thing is going to be a project.

- Josh




------------------------------

Message: 51
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 03:53:58 -0400
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <a1cb0.44c5458a.43350616 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

is it a  dps 6  or  8?


In a message dated 9/24/2015 12:10:41 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
derschjo at gmail.com writes:

On  9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Ah, so these are the  vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics
of
> the DPS-8 inside  and out; I've never really seen the innards of a
Honeywell
> machine  before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>
>  Best,
>
> Sean

Will do.  I took the boards out to  inspect them tonight (they had
rattled about a bit during shipment) and  everything seems ok.  I'll have
time to take some pictures this  weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along
the line someone  disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to
the boards and I've  got no idea what goes where (only a couple are
cohesively labeled.)   This thing is going to be a project.

-  Josh





------------------------------

Message: 52
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:20:02 +0100
From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <084601d0f6aa$3209f150$961dd3f0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The DPS6 is a very different animal to the GE600 -> GE6000  > Level 66 => 
DPS300 which were as far as I know all TTL or LSI TTL....
... The CPU was built on wire wrap boards which were around 14" or 16" 
square (say 35cm) and which slotted into a backplane.
.. the machines had an extensive test suite which the CE ran weekly. This 
could vary the voltages to the logic chips....
.. when a faulty board was found they were usually repaired on-site, there 
was a board tester shipped with each system to identify chip level faults.
.. this contrasts with the earlier H3200 we had which was fixed by board 
level repair..

The CPU and Memory were in separate cabinets, much like the 360/67 but 
Honeywell kept the same layout when moving from core (I think the 
GE6000/H6000 were core) on to D-Ram in the L66.
The CPU number and I think the RAM start addresses were all configured on 
switchs, so it was possible to split a Dual CPU machine into two singles for 
testing.

The peripherals came from MPI a joint venture with CDC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Data_Corporation#Magnetic_Peripherals_Inc.

There are more ramblings, (not from me) here:-

http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/english/gecos_to_gcos8_part_2.htm

The GCOS-3 Control Cards and Abort Codes Pocket Guide DD04 Rev.0 is sat on 
my desk in the scanning queue...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
> Dersch
> Sent: 24 September 2015 08:11
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
>
> On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of
> > pics of the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards
> > of a Honeywell machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style"
> looks like.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Sean
>
> Will do.  I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled 
> about
> a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok.  I'll have time to take 
> some
> pictures this weekend.  Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone
> disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've 
> got
> no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.)  This 
> thing is
> going to be a project.
>
> - Josh
>




------------------------------

Message: 53
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:41:35 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <20150924094135.GB32087 at Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi

I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box
upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But
It's damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch
of precious space.

At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what
is not directly useful to me.


What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a
truck and fill with dead trees?

Regards,
Pontus.


------------------------------

Message: 54
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:44:23 +1000
From: Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com>
To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID:
<F0214D71-4B97-4CF9-9A8A-CD39406E25FE at retrocomputingtasmania.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


> On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> ...And now my employer is throwing out box
> upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to 
crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist 
online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth keeping.




------------------------------

Message: 55
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:51:54 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <20150924095154.GA9183 at Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 07:44:23PM +1000, Nigel Williams wrote:
>
> > On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> > ...And now my employer is throwing out box
> > upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
>
> Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to
> crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist
> online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth
> keeping.


It would be a lot of work. For the VMS stuff I have started indexing. I
suppose I should run the list through manx at least. Having an automatic
tool for that is tempting to make.

/P


------------------------------

Message: 56
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:16:06 +0200
From: "Mazzini Alessandro" <mazzinia at tin.it>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: R: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <006001d0f6b2$06a4f570$13eee050$@tin.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Crying at the prospect of the waste :( (from someone that had the chance of
saving just a set of X-Open manuals)

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pontus
Pihlgren
Inviato: gioved? 24 settembre 2015 11:42
A: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Oggetto: Regarding Manuals

Hi

I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box upon
box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.

I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But It's
damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch of
precious space.

At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what is
not directly useful to me.


What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a
truck and fill with dead trees?

Regards,
Pontus.



------------------------------

Message: 57
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was
Re: Self modifying code
Message-ID: <201509241110.HAA04206 at Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> Well, there are plenty of word-but-not-byte/character addressable
> machines out there, which makes life interesting for the likes of C.

C is able to support them just fine, though a whole lot of C code isn't
(beacuse it assumes things like "all pointers are the same size", or
even more specifically, "all pointers are just memory addresses").

Such machines typically just have void * and char * occupying more
space than pointers to word-and-larger types.

> One thing that I've wondered about is "does the current HLL-du-juor
> dictate processor architecture?"--and not the reverse.

Dictate, probably not quite.  Influence, certainly.

> Does anyone consider a machine that doesn't implement any sort of
> hardware stack, for example, a marketplace contender?

I don't, for the simple reason that I don't know of any that aren't, by
today's standards, ludicrously slow.

If a hypothetical machine were to be released that didn't have stack
support of some sort in hardware (even if just autodecrement and
autoincrement addressing modes - for example, the Super-H)?  I'd want
to know what it had that made its maker think it worth making despite
that.

However, I have trouble imagining a machine on which it is difficult to
implement a stack.  Even the machines of old which "didn't have stacks"
generally had (what we would today call) addressing modes that made it
possible to implement them without too much pain.  (What they usually
didn't have was an easy way to get procedure call return addresses onto
the stack, like one I remember hearing of whose call instruction stored
the return address just before the beginning of the called procedure.
While I don't know any such machines well enough to be sure, I would
imagine a return stack could be maintained there by slightly
complicating the procedurecall and return sequences - in this crowd,
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong! :-)

/~\ The ASCII   Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!      7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


------------------------------

Message: 58
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 05:35:54 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <5603EE2A.8020308 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
> binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box
> upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
>

I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just
uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products that
I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old.





------------------------------

Message: 59
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:53:15 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <20150924125315.GC9183 at Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 05:35:54AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> >Hi
> >
> >I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS
> >binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box
> >upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature.
> >
>
> I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just
> uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products
> that
> I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old.
>

I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that old 
enough?

/P


------------------------------

Message: 60
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:16:20 -0400
From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <5603F7A4.60808 at telegraphics.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 2015-09-24 3:04 AM, ben wrote:
> On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
>> basic character set
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
>> that fits in a byte
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
>> bits, which is at least 8
>> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
>> consists of bytes
>
> Bla Bla  Bla ...
> What happened to seven bit ASCII?
> I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages
> is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters
> in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory
> can be accessed.  char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1)

Depends on the Pascal. Apple chose (Object) Pascal as its principal
systems and applications programming language for at least a decade
(Lisa, 68K Mac, etc), and its memory addressing capabilities, in
particular byte arrays, were equivalent to C's. Many other Pascals had
similar extensions (I seem to recall Turbo Pascal did).

--Toby


>
> 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
> 5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
> Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
> level. This may not be standard C but I has the early
> PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.
>
> Ben.
>
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 61
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:06:51 -0400
From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID: <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F at 310e2>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
reply-type=original

Found a few more boards; I guess the displays,
optocouplers and surge suppressors suggest an
industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or
limited production.

Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more
often for a bus instead of presumably more
expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some
(CDC?) boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins
plugging into sockets on the backplane.

https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCKq4r5zr3fjGiwE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Ross" <tmfdmike at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form
factor?


> That's odd.
>
> I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of
> something that might
> have belonged in a terminal or keyboard...
> character generator or
> something... stab in the dark really.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin
>> single row header bus.
>>
>> Anyone recognize it?
>>
>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2n04KROo/s720-Ic42/Mystery68xx.JPG
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his
> life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will
> ever know or see.'



------------------------------

Message: 62
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:00:47 -0500
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <5604101F.2090207 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 9/24/2015 12:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
>> An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude.
>> Same with long.  You do have to be able to convert between longs (and
>> possibly ints) and addresses (*).  So, you make an int 5 digits (which
>> matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10
>> digits.  You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell.  Then
>> the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical
>> 2 and 4).
>
> And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
> bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
> being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
> 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
> two.
>
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the
> basic character set
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation
> that fits in a byte
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT
> bits, which is at least 8
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes
>
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
> have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit
> patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called
> "trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have
> trap representations.
>
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
> range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n.
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
> range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1.
>
> On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
> arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
> each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
> accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
> be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
> representation.

I don't *have* to do any such thing.

>
> If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
> unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
> only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
> can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.
>

It does not *have* to be six digits.

You seem to be supposing that I said one could/would implement ANSI/ISO
C on a 1410 in native code (as opposed to some kind of binary
threaded-code simulator that has been suggested).  I did not.  I said C,
and by that I meant something presumably contemporary with the machine
in its last years.  I would not suggest that one would implement
ANSI/ISO C on such a machine, any more than I would expect to implement
current versions of FORTRAN on such a machine.  Heck, there wasn't even
a FORTRAN IV for the 1410.

I would expect a char to be 6 or 7 bits on a 1410 - one storage
character, rather than 8 (one could conceivably use the word-mark for a
char bit to get 7 bits, and it would make some sense to do so, but if
abused (say, by accessing an int as char [5]) could result in a wordmark
in the middle of an int, which it would be good to avoid if at all
possible to avoid having to move integer types to an intermediate
storage location using record marks to terminate the move rather than
wordmarks).

An int would be 5 characters long.

If one goes back to the definition of C in "The C Programming Language",
then one sees a less restrictive specification the the contemporary
ANSI/ISO specification.  The restrictions of ANSI/ISO C came later
because of things that folks tended to assume and do in their C programs
because of the hardware it typically ran on, i.e., that chars were
capable of holding 8 bit binary numbers.

"Objects declared as characters (char) are large enough to store any
member of the implementation's character set, and if a genuine character
from that character set is stored in a character variable, its *value*
is *equivalent* to the integer code for that character.  Other values
may be stored into character variables, but the implementation is
machine-dependent."  (asterisk emphasis added).

"Equivalent" is extremely important here, as it frees one from the
notion of it having to be the exact same bit representation.  It means
that if you cast from char to int (access it as a value), or pass a char
as a formal parameter, the int gets the value of the character as a set
of bits, and vice versa.  It does NOT require that the int be the
*identical* bits as the char.

Common practice is, of course, to use chars to store small, but still
useful, integer values, in this case, -32 to +31 (6 bits) or -64 to +63
(7 bits)).  Would this break some programs that assume a char can hold
values from -127 to 127?  Of course.  Would those programs be "fixable"
to the extent that they were not dependent upon machine I/O hardware and
the like?  Yes, they should be.

""Plain" integers have the natural size suggested by the host machine
architecture".

Thus one would end up with a C char type which is only slightly
different from FORTRAN CHARACTER variables, but which can still store
small integer values in the spirit of C.

Enough already.

JRJ


------------------------------

Message: 63
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:11:16 -0500
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <56041294.1060803 at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 9/24/2015 2:04 AM, ben wrote:
> On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>
> 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int.
> 5    chars per word sounds right on decimal machine.
> Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary
> level.

On a 1410 (or 1401) 0-63 can hold the entire character set using
char/int conversion instead of storing chars as their native bits, and
then we have 5 digits per int as the native integer size (size of an
address).

0-127 would be required to hold a character with a work mark bit, which
I think one would probably want to make available at a character level,
but try and avoid having them set inside of ints.

Also, on a 1410 or a 1401 with the right optional features, bitwise
operations (bitwise &^|) could still be carried out on a binary level
without undue difficulty.

As you say, logic operations (&&, ||) would presumably use int 0 and 1 -
but could still be carried out on a binary level.

>This may not be standard C but I has the early
> PDP 11 C  feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine.
>
> Ben.
>

Precisely.


JRJ


------------------------------

Message: 64
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:23:55 -0500
From: Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor?
Message-ID: <20150924152355.GQ4403 at n0jcf.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thursday (09/24/2015 at 10:06AM -0400), Mike Stein wrote:
> Found a few more boards; I guess the displays, optocouplers and surge
> suppressors suggest an industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or
> limited production.
>
> Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more often for a bus instead
> of presumably more expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some 
> (CDC?)
> boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins plugging into sockets on the
> backplane.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCKq4r5zr3fjGiwE

Those are the same connectors used on the Heathkit H8 and H89 backplanes
but those are definitely not cards that plug into the backplane of either
of those machines.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist



------------------------------

Message: 65
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda
calculus
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240856460.309 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote:
> And the length of a char?  It's required that all types other than
> bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int
> being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range
> 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of
> two.
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1  . . .
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 . . .
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 . . .
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields
> consists of bytes
> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a
> ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a
> On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to
> arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with
> each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because
> accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to
> be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap
> representation.
> If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an
> unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the
> only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It
> can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999.

The original "challenge" just said "C".
THAT is all ANSI C.
K&R C did not have those limitations.  If you wanted to build a C with a 7
bit short, a 13 bit int, and a 19 bit long, it was OK.
Only limits were that the sizeof an int couldn't be smaller than the size
of a short, sizeof a long couldn't be less than that of an int, etc.

I am not claiming that I could create a C compiler for 1401/1410, but
these restrictions only preclude ANSI C.
Note: I am also not saying that doing so would be a good idea.



------------------------------

Message: 66
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240907080.309 at shell.lmi.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> is it a    dps 6    or    8?

I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that
causes you to press the spacebar.
But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner.





------------------------------

Message: 67
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:55:41 -0400
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <aaf55.450df234.4335850b at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

pretty  funny!

maybe  I  should  be  fortunate enough to have his  salary also!?
#ed


In a message dated 9/24/2015 9:08:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
cisin at xenosoft.com writes:

On Thu,  24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> is it a    dps  6    or    8?

I am actually sincerely sorry that  you are having another migraine that
causes you to press the  spacebar.
But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William  Shatner.






End of cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
************************************** 


From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Sep 24 17:05:11 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:05:11 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXffeMtTgcekPdTNBXSttKfJhhN7HoDP6V=g1MsgPLXpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56036322.4010901@att.net>
 <CAA43vkXffeMtTgcekPdTNBXSttKfJhhN7HoDP6V=g1MsgPLXpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56047397.7060002@jwsss.com>



On 9/24/2015 9:54 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I think this anecdote is also referenced in the AFDC installation site
> story on multicians.org? Sounds familiar...
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
Cookie monster originated on Multics, and was taken to the GCOS 
environment if it got there in the same incarnation.

We had graduated to far better toys when Cookie monster showed up at the 
USL (Lafayette, La) Multics installation.  We had a modified version of 
the timeshare send message command that was modified to be "send 
command"  Once you had it so that it was stealth installed on a users 
account whenever they were on you could make their terminals do things 
spontaneously.

Very entertaining.   Cookie Monster was objectionable to me in that the 
joke cause you to have to log out and destroyed your session, which I 
didn't find as amusing as if it did the cookie trick and something more 
clever.

I also had remote execution and logging in a startrek basic program that 
took over the installation, but took it back out since the above send 
command had run its course.  But it did provide an education to a couple 
of SysAdmin types who thought they were clever and had never heard of 
trojans.  Done to them by the local Honeywell Site SA.

thanks
Jim

>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
>>> model
>>> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>>> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>>> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit
>>> pictured on this site:
>>> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>>
>>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What have
>>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Josh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of
>> GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System
>>
>>
>> One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the
>> cookie monster that was on  terminals in the Pentagon installation of
>> WWMMCCS.  As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go
>> blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something
>> to the effect  "cookie monster hungry - feed me".  Supposedly once you
>> typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system
>> back to the operator.   I personally know a retired AF IT manager who
>> worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story...
>>
>> Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it
>> wasn't a particularly common installed setup.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>


From als at thangorodrim.ch  Thu Sep 24 17:11:16 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:11:16 +0200
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150924221116.GA19283@thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 01:49:56PM -0400, Mouse wrote:
> >> Ever heard of CRYPTOWALL ?  I think that I got it from looking at
> >> PDFs on the web while doing some research.  [...]
> 
> I trust you've now switched PDF viewers to one that doesn't
> gratuitously execute (attempts at) live content?
> 
> > Sounds like Cryptolocker.  Even the police paid the ransom to get
> > their data back.
> 
> If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
> whoever decided they didn't need proper backups.  (And whoever was
> responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with,
> either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools
> that would let it run, depending.)

I've worked for the police, running IT infrastructure (backend HA UNIX
servers). I can totally see this happening. In our case, the Windows
NT based workstations were supposedly locked down to be only useful for
actually getting work done (i.e. Outlook for calendar/mail, inhouse
apps for doing paperwork). When we had reason to scan fileserver backups
we found all kinds of crap (games and stuff) that wasn't supposed to be
there. And we actually _ran_ tape based backups - I've known other places
in the police force that weren't so ... diligent about it.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu Sep 24 17:16:48 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:16:48 -0400
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
Message-ID: <b3388.1bfcfaf3.4335d050@aol.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwncwOG8-HY
Fun - a BBC  this is your life with  Shatner    -  ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2015 2:57:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
mark at markesystems.com writes:

> I  am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that
>  causes you to press the spacebar.
> But, I do have to point out that it  makes you sound like William Shatner.

SNORT!!!

(I had the fun of  performing his version of Common People for a while with 
our power-pop  band - it was a real  blast!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyNdjRX9mQ

~~
Mark  Moulding



From als at thangorodrim.ch  Thu Sep 24 17:18:33 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:18:33 +0200
Subject: Is tape dead?
In-Reply-To: <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150924221833.GB19283@thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 11:36:57AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/15/2015 10:49 AM, Mouse wrote:
> 
> >If the police needed to even _consider_ doing that, they need to fire
> >whoever decided they didn't need proper backups.  (And whoever was
> >responsible for the mistake that got it running there to begin with,
> >either whoever decided to let it run or whoever decided to use tools
> >that would let it run, depending.)
> 
> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many
> GENERATIONS to you keep around?"  If you're just overwriting last
> month's backup, you could be propagating the effects of a malware or
> just plain error with no means of retrieval.

Yeah, that is one of the canonical mistakes. I've seen tape backup
setups that had _the_ backup tape, which was overwritten for every
backup run. They might as well not have bothered ...

> My backups are currently done by connecting an external drive to a
> system, and booting with a live CD. Important stuff is also
> duplicated on several different machines--and when new technology
> obsoletes the old, carry the content forward on the newer medium.
> 
> I back up my original work or valuable reference sources.  No
> pictures or movies.  When you consider how much *original* work
> anyone does during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little.

Well, the backup for the digital camera archive currently _fills_ two
LTO3 tapes (with the wife and me both keeping DSLRs busy, that is not
a surprise).
 
> Maybe that's changed today.  I remember seeing a figure of 11
> debugged lines of code per day per programmer as the average for a
> GSA programmer back in the 1980s.
> ---------------
> Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing
> stupid-low prices on SSD using MLC flash.  How reliable are these
> things?  I'm still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now.

Don't trust flash for backups. With rotating rust, backups to cold
storage (i.e. connect drive, write data, disconnect, store it) works
pretty well. With flash ... well. The deeper one digs into how flash
storage is done these days, the less one tends to trust it. Do you
really trust what is effectively down to a handful of electrons trapped
in a tiny cell with a very thin insulator hanging around forever?
Yeah, me neither. There is a reason my workstation has a hybrid RAID1
for the rootfs: spinning rust + flash drive, with the spinning rust
set to 'write mostly'. Gets me the speed of flash and the more proven
long term stability of spinning rust.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From als at thangorodrim.ch  Thu Sep 24 17:30:17 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:30:17 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150924223016.GC19283@thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:19:27PM -0400, Mouse wrote:
> > I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS
> > to you keep around?"
> 
> For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes.  There's
> something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent
> seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve
> months, and the oldest backup in any year.  I'm considering something
> of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host,
> with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives
> on a scheme somewhat like the above.
> 
> > I back up my original work or valuable reference sources.  No
> > pictures or movies.  When you consider how much *original* work
> > anyone does during a lifetime, it's surprisingly little.
> 
> Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
> certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a
> few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably
> produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now.  And
> people into video production....

A _gigabyte_? *ROFLBTC*

With a modern DSLR (especially if you care about data quality and have
it set to store both high quality .jpeg and RAW files), a day of moderate
shooting can easily produce a couple gigabytes of data. The D800 will
happily write around 50-60 MB _per_ picture (15 MB .jpeg, 42 MB .nef in
a typical example). Granted, out of a few dozen (or hundreds, if you
are a professional), only a few pictures are actually really good and
worth keeping, but why throw it away when it might be useful and storing
it is cheap?

> > Related to the subject of backup devices, I've been seeing stupid-low
> > prices on SSD using MLC flash.  How reliable are these things?  I'm
> > still of the spinning rust persuasion, right now.
> 
> So am I.  I don't trust multi-level for anything more than passing a thumb
> drive to a friend or the like (where failure carries a very low cost)
> and I mostly don't trust wear-leveling algorithms yet, so I have little
> use for flash, certainly not for backups.
> 
> Besides, even stupid-low SSD prices are still, in my admittedly limited
> experience, well above spinning-rust prices.  The advantages of flash
> (random access and physical ruggedness) aren't very important for most
> backup applications, so price (and burnt-in technology, to some extent)
> win out for my purposes.

Flash is great if you want high bandwidth and _massive_ IOPS (so it helps
speeding up your workstation/laptop). It is also nice for being basically
shock resistant (so dropping your running laptop on the bed is no problem).

But for long term storage? Rotating rust. For cheap bulk storage? Rotating
rust. Also, flash tends to have rather abrupt failure patterns, as in:
now it works just fine, now it is dead. Rotating rust tends to give you
at least some warning that you need to replace the disk _now_.

Kind regards,
          Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Sep 24 17:45:33 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:45:33 -0400
Subject: SQLite reliability - Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <350816660C674058A167CF8D25742C53@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <350816660C674058A167CF8D25742C53@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <56047D0D.5020506@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-24 5:37 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote:
>>> I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project,
>>> but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end?  If
>>
>> No, I would not consider it.  I have experience with it on my Garmin GPS
>> unit.  I really dislike it.
>
> Wow - I'm quite surprised at that. ...
>
> I have used it on PC platforms, and have been quite impressed with how
> robust the database structure is. ...
> I use it for industrial automation applications, and have tested it a
> lot to see if I could corrupt the database.  Basically,  unless I
> deliberately mangled the container file, I couldn't get it to fail
> non-gracefully, even by turning of the power while writing the file.
> (This was not a full, rigorous failure study, but I've got a lot of them
> out there now, and although I get plenty of support calls a screwed-up
> database is never the root cause.)

Dr Richard Hipp has often spoken about the software engineering 
practices they use to make SQLite robust.

It is something they particularly care about.


--Toby


>
> Just my experience...
> ~~
> Mark Moulding
>

From silent700 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 17:58:57 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:58:57 -0500
Subject: Free: IBM RT Monitors near Chicago
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGeW+tmywkRXSHUiyNmTVMOT-HPM2WcLOWbxrsTndUxsg@mail.gmail.com>

2x IBM 5081-16 CRT monitors.  3x BNC input and output.  Unknown sync rates,
may be specific to RT output, may not.

Assumed working but unable to test.  Don't want to scrap them but can't
hang on to them much longer. You pick up or arrange pickup in 60070.

J

From als at thangorodrim.ch  Thu Sep 24 18:15:56 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:15:56 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
References: <CAMvyYF_WOzpawfgot3XHDxj1WGVJF_ZJSWRDaNrmgFa+Lqqemw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <20150924231556.GD19283@thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 03:32:27PM -0400, ethan at 757.org wrote:
> >Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
> >certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but only a
> >few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who have probably
> >produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures each by now.  And
> >people into video production....
> 
> 
> I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events
> and I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around
> 5GB per hour (H264 1080i)
> 
> A few years ago I bought a BD-R drive from Samsung, and recorded 3
> copies each of all the video from a few events that I wanted to put
> on the shelf. I verified the media was the metal stuff not the dye
> stuff (one is HTL, other is LTH, can't remember which is which.) 6
> months later all of the BD-R discs were unreadable. I blamed the
> drive, RMA'ed with Samsung and confirmed with a friend on his
> Pioneer -- nope, the media somehow lost all the data. Memorex
> branded, was what you could find commercially local. The thing is a
> lot of it is rebadged Ritek and other vendors. Data lost. Not
> thrilled, and not sure I can trust that format after that issue. I
> did buy some Verbatim BD-R media but haven't used it yet. Pretty
> much keep everything on power consuming heat producing spinning
> disk.

Well, I have been mulling buying a BD-writer for a while (much less
now since my backups go to LTO3), thanks for the warning - looks like
BD-R is another waste of time & money.
 
> I've heard some horror stories with tape as well.
> 
> When I worked at NASA the powderhorns we had originally had some
> tape drive that was like $100,000 each but really I guess was made
> from SVHS VCRs. STK literally had two drives on site all the time as
> the ones that were swapped in that week when two would fail. I think
> they converted it over to an IBM tape, can't remember what the SVHS
> based thing was but it was single reel spooled out into the deck,
> probably 9840 or something.
> 
> I would cut multiple tapes of anything you care about!

Depends very much on the tape technology. Anything based on VHS tape was
a complete waste of time and money. Anything based on helical scan cannot
be trusted (at a previous job, we would boot/install machines from DDS3
tapes and I kept 3-4 copies of each install tape. After two years I had
a nice big stack of failed tapes). Linear scan (e.g. DLT, LTO) with
read-after-write is the only tape technology worth trusting. Even so,
for data you care about, keep multiple copies and multiple generations
around.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From als at thangorodrim.ch  Thu Sep 24 18:30:34 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:30:34 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 01:02:03PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/15/2015 12:32 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote:
> >>Pictures and movies can be original work - perhaps not for you,
> >>certainly mostly not for me (I have a few original pictures, but
> >>only a few), but I know graphic designers and photographers who
> >>have probably produced at least a gigabyte of original pictures
> >>each by now.  And people into video production....
> >
> >
> >I have a HD video production rig that goes out to some geek events
> >and I've used it in the past at stuff. The data generated is around
> >5GB per hour (H264 1080i)
> 
> I tend to think of pictures and movies as sui generis--they were
> perfectly well done in non-digital form, so I don't include them as
> "data" needing backup, but rather a special case of digital data
> masquerading as a simulacrum of analog information.
> 
> Anyone remember the IBM "Photostore"  setup at Lawrence Livermore?
> Enterprising programmers wrote tools to go through their files and
> "touch" them, lest they be "Photostored".  In many cases, that meant
> "gone forever".
> --------------
> In the case of spinning rust, what brand is most reliable?  I've
> seen dreadful reports of DOA drives from Western Digital, fewer from
> Seagate, but I don't know about Hitachi, Samsung, etc.

Google for the Blackblaze reports. IIRC HGST and WD had the lowest failure
rates, Seagate just plain sucked.

> Up until now, I've confined my purchasing to 500GB drives on the
> hope that they're more reliable than the 3-5TB monsters.  Is this a
> mistake?

IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max capacity
on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that one.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 19:16:22 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:16:22 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org>


>> Up until now, I've confined my purchasing to 500GB drives on the
>> hope that they're more reliable than the 3-5TB monsters.  Is this a
>> mistake?
>

1tb was the transition to vertical recording. They had the tech down by 2tb.
Seagate 1 and 1.5s are utter crap. I had a dozen 1.5s that NEVER worked. The
largest PATA drives ever made were Seagate 750gb and I had dozens of them
in Xserve RAIDs.

Most of the drives are dead now.
I've replaced them with 1tb Toshiba 2.5 SATAs with PATA/SATA adapters.
The arrays run a hell of a lot cooler now.

I've been buying consumer Hitachi (the line was taken over by Toshiba after
WD hung onto only the Hitachi enterprise line) from 2tb onwards to 6tb without
any problems. We were forced to buy about 200 Seagate 3tb at the museum when
we couldn't get any Hitachi, and we're down to 80 spinning after about a year.
We lose a couple a week. They will be replaced with 4tb Toshibas starting in Oct
(we're almost out of Hitachi 3tb spares).

Word on the street is stay away from WD for the near future. They've had massive
QC problems.






From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 19:19:39 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:19:39 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <5604931B.3010500@bitsavers.org>

On 9/24/15 4:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> Google for the Blackblaze reports.

Backblaze




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Sep 24 19:31:46 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:31:46 -0600
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/24/2015 6:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> Word on the street is stay away from WD for the near future. They've had
> massive
> QC problems.
>
I wonder what is happening in the clouds?
Ben.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 19:45:41 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:45:41 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org> <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <56049935.5050300@bitsavers.org>



On 9/24/15 5:31 PM, ben wrote:

> I wonder what is happening in the clouds?
>

Mere mortals will never know.

Backblaze is the closest you will ever hear a peep from,
any they are teeny beany in terms of buying drives.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 19:48:13 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:48:13 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <56049935.5050300@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org> <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <56049935.5050300@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <560499CD.8030600@bitsavers.org>



On 9/24/15 5:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

> Backblaze is the closest you will ever hear a peep from,
> any they are teeny beany in terms of buying drives.
>

Thinking about it, Jason/IA could say something wrt drive
reliability. They are running similar chassis to us (24/36
drive Supermicros) just a LOT more of them.




From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 24 21:49:56 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:49:56 -0700
Subject: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with
 small ecli...
In-Reply-To: <560231BB.3010503@charter.net>
References: <12c5b.5d52c675.43337dc5@aol.com>,<560231BB.3010503@charter.net>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W8127621AB7E4D42DA7F649A3420@phx.gbl>

I get the squiggly lines but no headache.
Strange stuff.
Dwight

 
> Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> From: cube1 at charter.net
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500
> 
> On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> > probably an artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening .
> >  
> 
> Ugh.  Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with
> squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain.  You have my
> sympathy.
> 
> Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the
> local music store.  I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you
> not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna
> happen.  It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since.
> Go figure.  Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work
> for everyone.  Sigh.]
> 
> JRJ
 		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 24 21:51:55 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:51:55 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>

> From: spacewar at gmail.com
> 
> Before I write my own, does anyone happen to have an assembler and/or
> a disassembler for the Intel 8089 I/O processor?

You just may have to write your own.
Most don't even know what a 8089 is.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Sep 24 22:45:36 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:45:36 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>

On 09/24/2015 07:51 PM, dwight wrote:
>> From: spacewar at gmail.com
>>
>> Before I write my own, does anyone happen to have an assembler
>> and/or a disassembler for the Intel 8089 I/O processor?
>
> You just may have to write your own. Most don't even know what a 8089

I'll bet you could do it with some macros in an ordinary x86 assembler. 
  It's not as if you're dealing with a large instruction set or a 
blizzard of addressing modes.

--Chuck


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 22:45:51 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:45:51 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:51 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> You just may have to write your own.
> Most don't even know what a 8089 is.

That's looking likely.

Although I mostly want to assemble on a modern OS, it would be nice to
get a copy of ASM89 for the ISIS-II on the Intel MDS, if anyone
actually still had it.  I'm not holding my breath.  And I'd still have
to write a disassembler.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 22:53:22 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:53:22 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> I'll bet you could do it with some macros in an ordinary x86 assembler.
> It's not as if you're dealing with a large instruction set or a blizzard of
> addressing modes.

Yes, though the syntax for the addressing modes would have to be
non-standard, unless the macro assembler had really good string
mangling capabilities for macro arguments.  Same general problem as
trying to define macros to assemble for the 6502, which has addressing
modes like "(FOO)", "(FOO,X)" and "(FOO),Y", where the parenthesis,
comma, and "X" or "Y" are all part of the addressing mode designation.
A typical macro assembler will force the "Y" in the third example to
be a separate macro argument, unless some form of argument quoting is
used, and most assemblers will automatically evaluate the
parenthesized expression and discard the parenthesis, again, unless
some quoting is used.

If I have to hack up an assembler, I'll add it to "Macroassembler AS",
which I use for almost all of my hobby projects:
    http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/

One downside to using a modern assembler for my projects is that I use
long symbol names, and my source code can't be assembled with most of
the vintage resident assemblers, i.e., MACRO-80, due to a limit of six
significant characters.

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 23:15:08 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:15:08 -0400
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: assembler, disassembler for Intel 
8089?


> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:51 PM, dwight 
> <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You just may have to write your own.
>> Most don't even know what a 8089 is.
>
> That's looking likely.
>
> Although I mostly want to assemble on a modern 
> OS, it would be nice to
> get a copy of ASM89 for the ISIS-II on the Intel 
> MDS, if anyone
> actually still had it.  I'm not holding my 
> breath.  And I'd still have
> to write a disassembler.

Should be fairly trivial to modify or even create 
a new table for TASM:

https://home.comcast.net/~tasm/

m 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 23:46:17 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:46:17 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTGHT0zn2_pZzK1CJJrdbTvopQ=8p0SpoJLQ5LDJ=yZYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> Should be fairly trivial to modify or even create a new table for TASM:

I have no reason to doubt that TASM is a fine product, but if I'm
going to invest the effort to add support for a new processor to an
existing assembler, it will be an open-source assembler.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Sep 24 17:04:28 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:04:28 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org>

On 9/24/15 7:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> While I understand that a number of individuals would appreciate
> their own dead tree versions, before they arrive at that good
> home of an interested individual, would there be any interest
> in adding them the bitsavers archive?  From memory, I suspect
> that there is:
>

I've been holding off on any additional PDP-11 scanning to see what Alan Frisbie ends up taking care of.

The one exception is an RSX-11M 4.0 manual set, which I'm currently experimenting on trying to get
decent quality reasonably small sized pdfs with colored text. There are some manuals, like the DEC
FORTRAN reference, that really need preservation in color.

I'm getting reasonable results with 4bpp indexed color .pngs





From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Sep 24 17:12:23 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:12:23 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-25 00:04, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/24/15 7:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>
>> While I understand that a number of individuals would appreciate
>> their own dead tree versions, before they arrive at that good
>> home of an interested individual, would there be any interest
>> in adding them the bitsavers archive?  From memory, I suspect
>> that there is:
>>
>
> I've been holding off on any additional PDP-11 scanning to see what Alan
> Frisbie ends up taking care of.
>
> The one exception is an RSX-11M 4.0 manual set, which I'm currently
> experimenting on trying to get
> decent quality reasonably small sized pdfs with colored text. There are
> some manuals, like the DEC
> FORTRAN reference, that really need preservation in color.
>
> I'm getting reasonable results with 4bpp indexed color .pngs

Several RSX manuals have important color coding. Some manuals have both 
black, red and blue text. Others have sections with a light red or gray 
background.

I have paper versions of them. Unfortunately, all scanned manuals I've 
seen have been plain b/w. Also, bitmaps, and not OCRed. :-(

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:23:28 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:23:28 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5604DA50.3010900@gmail.com>

On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of
> the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell
> machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean

I put a few pictures up here:

http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dps6/

Nice bitslice processor in there, an Ethernet controller, some memory 
(looks like 2MB) and as for the other boards, I'm not yet sure...)

- Josh

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no
>> documents and have forgotten everything I knew.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
>>> Dersch
>>> Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
>>>
>>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
>> model (a
>>> badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>> some
>>> detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>> (it's very,
>>> very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on
>> this site:
>>> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>>
>>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What
>> have
>>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Josh
>>


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:27:11 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:27:11 -0700
Subject: DDS SETASI SC44 info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkV0A0NoZoK-MQ5o3pRi3JR0Eo4rjQhSLY-fWyaDCGthsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYEbgBH1-2HAoRFxA1M6eZzNg7=D=0dTvH1kG4NQk36FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5603A020.1060000@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkV0A0NoZoK-MQ5o3pRi3JR0Eo4rjQhSLY-fWyaDCGthsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5604DB2F.5090406@gmail.com>



On 9/24/15 9:58 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Nice score; the system looks pretty loaded!
Thanks!  It is pretty nice.  Just need to get a mass storage controller 
of some kind and it'll make a nice system.

> I checked out the pictures and
> I believe the "SC44" board is indeed simply a cache memory ... no VLSI or
> bit-slices on there to imply any compute capability. The "1501" board is
> just a little stub with a few bus driver ICs on it; looks like they are
> running lines from the private interconnect ribbon cable, back to the
> Unibus.
Yeah, that's about what I figured from looking at it, just curious if 
anyone had docs secreted away just in case I need to service it or if I 
ever want to know what those dip switches are for :).

Definitely going to have to see what performance difference the SC44 
makes over a normal /44; there's one at work I've been using so I'll 
have to craft up some benchmarks once I get mine running...

Thanks,
Josh


>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/23/15 2:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>>
>>> Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't
>>> definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to
>>> what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs...
>>>
>> Yeah, I took some pictures this afternoon (a bit blurry -- it was dark and
>> all I had was my cell phone, I'll try to get better pics tomorrow):
>>
>> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/
>>
>>
>>> Did you just buy this? :O
>>>
>>> http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information
>>>
>> Yep :).
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all --
>>>> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some
>>>> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and
>>>> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place
>>>> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051"
>>>> at
>>>> the end of the first backplane.  The two are connected via a ribbon
>>>> cable.
>>>>
>>>> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't
>>>> find
>>>> anything on this board set at all.  I'm assuming it's just a souped-up
>>>> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of
>>>> course).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 00:41:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:41:45 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl> <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5604DE99.6060807@sydex.com>

On 09/24/2015 08:53 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Yes, though the syntax for the addressing modes would have to be
> non-standard, unless the macro assembler had really good string
> mangling capabilities for macro arguments.  Same general problem as
> trying to define macros to assemble for the 6502, which has
> addressing modes like "(FOO)", "(FOO,X)" and "(FOO),Y", where the
> parenthesis, comma, and "X" or "Y" are all part of the addressing
> mode designation. A typical macro assembler will force the "Y" in the
> third example to be a separate macro argument, unless some form of
> argument quoting is used, and most assemblers will automatically
> evaluate the parenthesized expression and discard the parenthesis,
> again, unless some quoting is used.

Hmmm, I thought ASM89 used brackets for indicating addressing modes. 
Regardless, take a look at Microsoft ML assembler (6.xx) macros.  You 
can indeed manipulate arguments character-by-character.

--Chuck




From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 25 01:04:32 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:04:32 +0200
Subject: SQLite reliability - Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24
In-Reply-To: <350816660C674058A167CF8D25742C53@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443114000.2027.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <350816660C674058A167CF8D25742C53@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <20150925060431.GA1468@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 02:37:29PM -0700, mark at markesystems.com wrote:
> >>I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project,
> >>but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end?  If
> >
> >No, I would not consider it.  I have experience with it on my Garmin GPS
> >unit.  I really dislike it.
> 
> Wow - I'm quite surprised at that.  It is in *everything*: Android,
> iOS, FireFox, Chrome, - the list goes far on.  Personally, I've
> never used it on an embedded platform, although I'm certainly
> keeping it in my back pocket for the time when I need an embedded
> database.  What problems have you experienced?
> 

Full disclosure: I work for a company that competes with SQLite.

SQLite is fine if you know it's limitations. There is for instance 
little to no constraints checking, no proper types and nonstandard SQL.

/P

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 00:20:58 2015
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:20:58 -0400
Subject: Moving PDP 11 gear - Status update
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UO16VihxC0xDMUvHHJ9Q8ZTomm8+CUJ+h032VTKocPwqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello. It has been a while since i have posted anything on this list. Last
time i posted i was asking advice on how to properly load up and move a pdp
11 with related gear. It has been quite some time since i picked all this
stuff up and figured i would give a status update here to let others know
my progress with the machine.

Images of what I picked up can be posted later if there is interest.

In total i picked up the following:

2 racks containing -
a pdp 11/34
2 RL02 drives
A RL01 Drive
2 complete vt 100 terminals
2 large line printers

a second empty 11/34 . no cards.

second rack contains a large tape drive.

Piles of tapes and rl02 disks. I have yet to inventory them all. Most are
labled with aircraft names. The machine was used to recover flight data
recorder info, so i imagine that is what is on most of the tapes.
 Lots of RSX docs and related tapes.

I had the machine fired up for an hour or two, i was messing with the front
panel when i heard a fizzing sound followed by a burning smell. The front
panel is no longer responsive. I have been going over the power supply. Mr
Paul Anderson on the list here has been generously been giving much of his
spare time assisting me on the phone with troubleshooting the power supply.

Thats my progress so far. Kinda taunting that i moved it all the way over
here and it does not even work yet, but hopefully soon i can get it to work
again.

Lastly, the line printers were thrown in at the last moment, i was not sure
i was even going to be able to fit them in the van. Due to their weight i
have not been able to move them from where they were sat down since they
were picked up back in july. If anyone is interested in them, i can let
them go for cheap. I just do not have the space for them both, but the
seller was going to throw them out if i did not take them. Ill post back
with the model #'s and a couple pictures.

--Devin

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 01:17:37 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 01:17:37 -0500
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?

Thanks, Paul

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 25 01:16:17 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:16:17 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>
 <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20150925061617.GC1468@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 06:47:18AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/24/15 5:53 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> 
> >
> >I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that old enough?
> >
> 
> Yes, 4.1.x is what I am looking for in particular. I have most of
> 3.0 - 4.1 covered, and any products that I don't have there, in
> particular a clean copy of the NeWS and Open Windows manuals. There
> are a bunch of
> communications products, and things like the VME PC emulator board too.

I have 4.1.1. manuals it seems. Both for SunOS, Open Windows and some 
dev stuff (e.g. C programmers manual). There is also som Solaris 1.x and 
2.x. 

> I put part number and dates in the file names, so they are easy to
> dupe check.

What is the best way to proceed, I can make an inventory and crosscheck 
with what is on bitsavers. After that I can put things in box if you 
want to pay for shipping, I'm afraid I have no means or time to scan.

Regards,
Pontus.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 01:33:59 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 23:33:59 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>

On 09/24/2015 04:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max
> capacity on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that
> one.

So, if you were to move up from the 500GB SATA drives to the "next 
generation", which would you choose?

--Chuck


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 01:37:19 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:37:19 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <5604DE99.6060807@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604DE99.6060807@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT0go0NWxPVLwadbSczKpOpmSWV_OJgqPM+aOhvOsL5cA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:41 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Hmmm, I thought ASM89 used brackets for indicating addressing modes.

It does, so it doesn't have the parenthesis problem per se. I only
brought up the parenthesis as a general example of problems with
conventions for addressing modes of some processors conflicting with
general assembly parsing. I should have been more clear that the 8089
doesn't have that particular issue.

> Regardless, take a look at Microsoft ML assembler (6.xx) macros.  You can
> indeed manipulate arguments character-by-character.

Cool. I might play with that some time, but in general I'd rather
invest my efforts into adding that feature to AS. And for now, I'm
likely to just special-case it in a native 8089 mode for AS, which
already has to do such things for other processors, including the
6502.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 02:22:09 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:22:09 +0100
Subject: OT: Migraine was RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking
 terminal to go with small ecli...
Message-ID: <004f01d0f762$e4965ee0$adc31ca0$@gmail.com>

 Used to get the headaches with no visuals, but wearing the correct glasses
and keeping my screen clean seems to have solved that, 

but

since then, like Dwight,  I have had a couple of attacks of the "lightening
lines" and blurred vision. The eye hospital
tell me that this is an "ocular migraine" and I can concour its really
strange and somewhat scary especially for the first time...

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight
> Sent: 25 September 2015 03:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go
with
> small ecli...
> 
> I get the squiggly lines but no headache.
> Strange stuff.
> Dwight
> 
> 
> > Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go
with
> small ecli...
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > From: cube1 at charter.net
> > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500
> >
> > On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> > > probably an artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening .
> > >
> >
> > Ugh.  Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with
> > squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain.  You have my
> > sympathy.
> >
> > Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the
> > local music store.  I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you
> > not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna
> > happen.  It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since.
> > Go figure.  Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work
> > for everyone.  Sigh.]
> >
> > JRJ
> 


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 25 02:02:04 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:02:04 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
Message-ID: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:

* AlphaServer 2100 5/300
  - Untested by me, good physical appearance.

* DEC AXP 4000
  - Was running when I picked it up. 
    http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg

I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.

Regards,
Pontus.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri Sep 25 02:34:19 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 03:34:19 -0400
Subject: OT: Migraine was RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking
 terminal ...
Message-ID: <c64e3.3a617dad.433652fb@aol.com>

I have tried the   log the  foods I  eat and all the  other  routines
to find a cure... was even willing to give up lobster if that was a  
trigger.
 
Alas - so far,  no  solve.   Ed# 
 
 
In a message dated 9/25/2015 12:22:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes:

Used to  get the headaches with no visuals, but wearing the correct glasses
and  keeping my screen clean seems to have solved that, 

but

since  then, like Dwight,  I have had a couple of attacks of the  
"lightening
lines" and blurred vision. The eye hospital
tell me that  this is an "ocular migraine" and I can concour its really
strange and  somewhat scary especially for the first  time...

Dave
G4UGM

> -----Original Message-----
>  From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of  dwight
> Sent: 25 September 2015 03:50
> To: General Discussion:  On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>  Subject: RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to  go
with
> small ecli...
> 
> I get the squiggly lines but  no headache.
> Strange stuff.
> Dwight
> 
> 
>  > Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to  go
with
> small ecli...
> > To:  cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > From: cube1 at charter.net
> > Date:  Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500
> >
> > On 9/22/2015 11:00  PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote:
> > > probably an  artifact   generated by my migraine this   evening  .
> > >
> >
> > Ugh.  Had some of those  while I was in High School, complete with
> > squiggly lines, often  nausea and hours of intense pain.  You have my
> >  sympathy.
> >
> > Then one day I started to get one while I  was driving from home to the
> > local music store.  I pulled  over, took a deep breath and (I kid you
> > not) told myself no, you  are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna
> > happen.  It  went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since.
> > Go  figure.  Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would  work
> > for everyone.  Sigh.]
> >
> >  JRJ
> 



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 25 06:25:00 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:25:00 +0200
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB112-DS12A862B4AD3101812F448286420@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Paul Anderson 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 8:17 AM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; cctech at vax-11.org 
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences 

Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?

Thanks, Paul

========
As far as I know, the difference is one or two wires.
That is, the RL01/RL02 cable has less wires than the RK06/RK07 cable.
I have both, I could measure it, but that would have to wait a few days.

- Henk

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 25 07:24:53 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:24:53 +0000
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?

Yes.

The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those used
by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as the terminators
are the same.

-tony


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Sep 25 08:18:37 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
Message-ID: <201509251318.JAA19261@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> And I'd still have to write a disassembler.

If someone can point me at the assembly and machine language specs for
the thing, I can add it to my disassembler....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Sep 25 09:02:10 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1509141647180.1084-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <004a01d0ef43$06c7f780$1457e680$@gmail.com>
 <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de> <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1509250701290.16259@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/24/2015 04:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>
>> IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max
>> capacity on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that
>> one.
>
> So, if you were to move up from the 500GB SATA drives to the "next 
> generation", which would you choose?
>
I've got a number of WD Blue 1TB drives in use.  They're very good drives. 
You can find them for around $50 each too.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 09:09:24 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:09:24 +0200
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>

Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.

http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Sep 25 09:15:02 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:15:02 -0400
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>


> On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> I'm getting reasonable results with 4bpp indexed color .pngs
> 
> Several RSX manuals have important color coding. Some manuals have both black, red and blue text. Others have sections with a light red or gray background.
> 
> I have paper versions of them. Unfortunately, all scanned manuals I've seen have been plain b/w. Also, bitmaps, and not OCRed. :-(

OCR is fine but only if the bitmap image is available, OR if the resulting text is thoroughly cleaned up.  No OCR program can produce accurate text from scanned documents, even if the scans are good quality.  And not all scans are. 

	paul


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Sep 25 09:44:15 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:44:15 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>

He's going to find it rough going in trying to get the machines running 
with new/empty disks.  :-(  It's one
of the fears that I have for my 3620 and 3640's in that I'd like to have 
replacement disks but without the
manufacturing mojo, there's no way to put Genera and the bootstrap and 
uCode on a blank disk.

TTFN - Guy

On 9/25/15 7:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.
>
> http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal
>


From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 25 10:07:57 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:07:57 -0500
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>

On 9/25/2015 7:24 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those used
> by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as the terminators
> are the same.
> 
> -tony
> 
> 

Actually, the terminators for the RL and RK06/07 drives are *identical*,
part number 70-12293-xx (The RL manual has no XX, the RK06/7 manual as
0-0 for XX, but no worries, that is just a revision number) .

Darn good thing, too, because the terminators have no markings on them.  ;)

The wire in my RK06/RK07 cables has part number 1700051-00 on it. (Not a
reliable indicator - see below).  According to the manual, the RK06/RK07
cable assembly part numbers are 70-12292-LL where LL (length) may be 8,
12, 25 or 40.  All of my RK06/RK07 cables have the part number.

The wire in my RL cables is marked two different ways.  One cable has
the DEC part number for the cable itself (70-12122-10), and the wire is
part number 1700051-01 (same as the RK cable!), and is marked AWM ...
2464.  Others, which have no DEC part number on either the cable or the
wire, has AWM ... JUDD Wire Div. Style 2576 on the wire.

The wire I have on my RK06/07 cables is smooth and stiff, whereas the
wire in the RL cables tends to be more "bumpy" and more flexible and
shinier.  However, given the wire part number 1700051-xx appears on both
kinds, and is not shiny, wire used is itself not a reliable indicator.

The DEC part numbers for the RL cables themselves apparently varies:

BC20J-XX DEC part number 70-12122-10 - RL11, RLV11
BC80J-20 - RL8A
BC80M-6 - RLV12

I would say that if an unmarked cable is 6, 10 or 20 feet long, and
flexible it is mostly like an RL cable.   If the cable is 8, 12, 25, or
40 feet long it is probably an RK06/07 cable.

JRJ

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 25 10:38:25 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:38:25 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT0go0NWxPVLwadbSczKpOpmSWV_OJgqPM+aOhvOsL5cA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>, <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>,
 <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <5604DE99.6060807@sydex.com>,
 <CAFrGgTT0go0NWxPVLwadbSczKpOpmSWV_OJgqPM+aOhvOsL5cA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W107FDB8AF53D4FD0D654579A3420@phx.gbl>

Someplace in my piles of stuff, I may have an EPROM '89. At least I
think it was an 89.
If I find it, your welcome to it Eric.
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 11:01:22 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:01:22 -0700
Subject: US source for SCSI2SD boards
Message-ID: <56056FD2.5010905@bitsavers.org>

from the vintage-computer list

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?49260-SCSI2SD-microSD-bundles-in-stock-and-ready-to-ship-from-USA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191700123328



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 11:56:29 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:56:29 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56057CBD.3080808@bitsavers.org>

On 9/24/15 8:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:51 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You just may have to write your own.
>> Most don't even know what a 8089 is.
>
> That's looking likely.
>

What I/O board are you trying to figure out, Eric?
A bunch of different manufacturers early Multibus Winchester controller boards used them.




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 25 11:57:09 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:57:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <20150925165709.B130F18C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jerome H. Fine

    > I have ... some PDP-11 hardware manuals, but probably most are already
    > in PDF files at bitsavers.

Any chance you could check to see if you have something that's not online?
If you have more than a few, you probably do have some that aren't online.

If you whip up a list of what you've got, I'd be happy to check it for you.

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 11:59:11 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:59:11 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150925165709.B130F18C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150925165709.B130F18C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <56057D5F.7090604@bitsavers.org>

On 9/25/15 9:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> If you whip up a list of what you've got, I'd be happy to check it for you.
>

You REALLY want to check what Alan Frisbie has done this past year before spending
a lot of time on this. I see in alt.sys.pdp11 that he just listed an RT 5.6 manual
set on eBay. It is highly unlikely he would be selling it if it hasn't already been
scanned.





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 25 12:24:16 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:24:16 +0000
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5DB5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>
> > The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those used
> > by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as the terminators
> > are the same.
> >
> > -tony


> 
> Actually, the terminators for the RL and RK06/07 drives are *identical*,
> part number 70-12293-xx (The RL manual has no XX, the RK06/7 manual as
> 0-0 for XX, but no worries, that is just a revision number) .

Bad wording on my part, but that's what I meant. There was only one type of
terminator, it was used for both the RL's and RK06/07.

-tony

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 09:58:17 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:58:17 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150925061617.GC1468@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <20150925061617.GC1468@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <56056109.7050701@bitsavers.org>



On 9/24/15 11:16 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> What is the best way to proceed, I can make an inventory and crosscheck
> with what is on bitsavers. After that I can put things in box if you
> want to pay for shipping, I'm afraid I have no means or time to scan.
>

Sounds good. Shipping would be to Mountain View, CA 94043
Email me to work out the details.



From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 10:01:58 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:01:58 -0400
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUPpZLMj3Rde4Z41BRZGh4Yp=yVzWDenYUOqOt00VEhqA@mail.gmail.com>

I would call that like ... a frustratingly nice score, LOL. Lots of
Symbolics equipment saved which is a huge plus, but if it were me, I'd
rather have one Ivory machine that ran, versus a whole pallet of 3620s and
3640s with bad drives ... it'll be interesting to see if he's ever able to
get one of them up and running.

Funny he does not recognize the famous VSXXX-AA! One of the best mice ever
made, IMO :O

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> He's going to find it rough going in trying to get the machines running
> with new/empty disks.  :-(  It's one
> of the fears that I have for my 3620 and 3640's in that I'd like to have
> replacement disks but without the
> manufacturing mojo, there's no way to put Genera and the bootstrap and
> uCode on a blank disk.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
> On 9/25/15 7:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.
>>
>>
>> http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal
>>
>>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 10:18:22 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:18:22 -0400
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>

Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted to
make an offer on one of they were in the US...

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> Hi
>
> I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:
>
> * AlphaServer 2100 5/300
>   - Untested by me, good physical appearance.
>
> * DEC AXP 4000
>   - Was running when I picked it up.
>     http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg
>
> I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Sep 25 10:47:10 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:47:10 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150925154710.GB11319@Update.UU.SE>

Out of curiousity, what is your post area code, I'm curious what 
shipping would amount to.

/P

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:18:22AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted to
> make an offer on one of they were in the US...
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi
> >
> > I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:
> >
> > * AlphaServer 2100 5/300
> >   - Untested by me, good physical appearance.
> >
> > * DEC AXP 4000
> >   - Was running when I picked it up.
> >     http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg
> >
> > I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pontus.
> >

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 11:08:48 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:08:48 -0400
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <20150925154710.GB11319@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150925154710.GB11319@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWkgtcQ+HYW0QmBAHbbOkhOLMxoYQO=KBHiKQi--kmdoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Pontus,

I'm in Ypsilanti, MI 48198 if you want to use that as a data point ... I
suppose I'd be curious, too (although certainly out of my budget).

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
wrote:

> Out of curiousity, what is your post area code, I'm curious what
> shipping would amount to.
>
> /P
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:18:22AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> > Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted to
> > make an offer on one of they were in the US...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:
> > >
> > > * AlphaServer 2100 5/300
> > >   - Untested by me, good physical appearance.
> > >
> > > * DEC AXP 4000
> > >   - Was running when I picked it up.
> > >     http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg
> > >
> > > I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Pontus.
> > >
>

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 25 12:47:15 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:47:15 -0500
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5DB5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5DB5@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <560588A3.7060209@charter.net>

On 9/25/2015 12:24 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>> The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those used
>>> by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as the terminators
>>> are the same.
>>>
>>> -tony
> 
> 
>>
>> Actually, the terminators for the RL and RK06/07 drives are *identical*,
>> part number 70-12293-xx (The RL manual has no XX, the RK06/7 manual as
>> 0-0 for XX, but no worries, that is just a revision number) .
> 
> Bad wording on my part, but that's what I meant. There was only one type of
> terminator, it was used for both the RL's and RK06/07.
> 
> -tony
> 

D'oh.  Actually, lazy *reading* on *my* part.  D'oh.

JRJ

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 12:54:06 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:54:06 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUPpZLMj3Rde4Z41BRZGh4Yp=yVzWDenYUOqOt00VEhqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
 <CAA43vkUPpZLMj3Rde4Z41BRZGh4Yp=yVzWDenYUOqOt00VEhqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLa+rvNYzG=+-A-07WsUOJBWVyEMqRsnym4-fLFfWpjb4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> I would call that like ... a frustratingly nice score, LOL. Lots of
> Symbolics equipment saved which is a huge plus, but if it were me, I'd
> rather have one Ivory machine that ran, versus a whole pallet of 3620s and
> 3640s with bad drives ... it'll be interesting to see if he's ever able to
> get one of them up and running.
>
> Funny he does not recognize the famous VSXXX-AA! One of the best mice ever
> made, IMO :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>
> > He's going to find it rough going in trying to get the machines running
> > with new/empty disks.  :-(  It's one
> > of the fears that I have for my 3620 and 3640's in that I'd like to have
> > replacement disks but without the
> > manufacturing mojo, there's no way to put Genera and the bootstrap and
> > uCode on a blank disk.
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
> >
> > On 9/25/15 7:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >
> >> Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal
> >>
> >>
> >
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 12:54:16 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:54:16 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbV0AT7uCHhQ9+0xLuBeP262F1v-j=MfbzKZDsZ6xiMrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> He's going to find it rough going in trying to get the machines running
> with new/empty disks.  :-(  It's one
> of the fears that I have for my 3620 and 3640's in that I'd like to have
> replacement disks but without the
> manufacturing mojo, there's no way to put Genera and the bootstrap and
> uCode on a blank disk.
>
> TTFN - Guy



A colleague of mine and I tested David Gesswein's MFM emulator (
http://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml) in his 3620; it was able to capture a
disk image from the 3620's MFM disk and successfully boot Genera from the
image.  So there is a solution, at least if you happen to have a system
using MFM disks.  (And an image or working disk to start from...)

Now, an ESDI emulator... that would be nice to have :).

- Josh



>
>
> On 9/25/15 7:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.
>>
>>
>> http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal
>>
>>
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 25 12:52:01 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:52:01 +0000
Subject: Looking for some DEC-related spares..
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5DED@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

I am currently sorting things out after a house move last year and getting my PDP11s back
together. Unfortuantely there was some damage in the move [1] and I am currently looking for
a source for the following : 

1) 2 off the small screw-down feet used on the outriggers of the H960 rack. Not the larger ones
under the rack, the little ones with the 3/8" A/F hexagon for a spanner. I have the outrigger castings,
undamaged, but 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!) [2]

2) 2 off switch mechanisms for the PDP11/45 front panel. I have the toggles (thankfully), I need
the switches. I think the 11/40 and 11/70 use the same swtiches. Probably C&K originally.

[1] I have learnt the hard way. If you need to move classic computers do not use a removal
company (this applies to anything else of any value). It is cheaper in the end to find 3 or so 
friends and give them 10K pounds/dollars each to help you with the move. 

[2] I asked said removal men if I should remove the outriggers. They told me not to bother. Looks 
like they tried to pivot the rack on those little feet (!).

-tony


From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:00:32 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:00:32 -0500
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPNCoK0xrWNoBb2p26-4QLjXOzOy1Yy7f+OGB7A5a=MBg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

The 17 class # should be the type of wire used in the cable, so maybe the
-00 ans -01 is the difference .

I'm just trying to sure weather or not the RL and RK cables are
interchangeable. Sounds like the RK might work on the RL, but not the other
way.

I have plastic and metal terminators, and the same with the cables and was
trying to remember if that had anything to do with it.

Seems like we used to use the BC80 M and J for any controller when we had
them.

For whatever reason DEC replaced the 70-12122  with the BC21Z.

Is the 70-12145 the electrical connector for the transition bracket, the
metal mounting bracket, or the entire assembly?

Thanks, Paul

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/25/2015 7:24 AM, tony duell wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those
> used
> > by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as
> the terminators
> > are the same.
> >
> > -tony
> >
> >
>
> Actually, the terminators for the RL and RK06/07 drives are *identical*,
> part number 70-12293-xx (The RL manual has no XX, the RK06/7 manual as
> 0-0 for XX, but no worries, that is just a revision number) .
>
> Darn good thing, too, because the terminators have no markings on them.  ;)
>
> The wire in my RK06/RK07 cables has part number 1700051-00 on it. (Not a
> reliable indicator - see below).  According to the manual, the RK06/RK07
> cable assembly part numbers are 70-12292-LL where LL (length) may be 8,
> 12, 25 or 40.  All of my RK06/RK07 cables have the part number.
>
> The wire in my RL cables is marked two different ways.  One cable has
> the DEC part number for the cable itself (70-12122-10), and the wire is
> part number 1700051-01 (same as the RK cable!), and is marked AWM ...
> 2464.  Others, which have no DEC part number on either the cable or the
> wire, has AWM ... JUDD Wire Div. Style 2576 on the wire.
>
> The wire I have on my RK06/07 cables is smooth and stiff, whereas the
> wire in the RL cables tends to be more "bumpy" and more flexible and
> shinier.  However, given the wire part number 1700051-xx appears on both
> kinds, and is not shiny, wire used is itself not a reliable indicator.
>
> The DEC part numbers for the RL cables themselves apparently varies:
>
> BC20J-XX DEC part number 70-12122-10 - RL11, RLV11
> BC80J-20 - RL8A
> BC80M-6 - RLV12
>
> I would say that if an unmarked cable is 6, 10 or 20 feet long, and
> flexible it is mostly like an RL cable.   If the cable is 8, 12, 25, or
> 40 feet long it is probably an RK06/07 cable.
>
> JRJ
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Sep 25 13:06:55 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 20:06:55 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-25 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> I'm getting reasonable results with 4bpp indexed color .pngs
>>
>> Several RSX manuals have important color coding. Some manuals have both black, red and blue text. Others have sections with a light red or gray background.
>>
>> I have paper versions of them. Unfortunately, all scanned manuals I've seen have been plain b/w. Also, bitmaps, and not OCRed. :-(
>
> OCR is fine but only if the bitmap image is available, OR if the resulting text is thoroughly cleaned up.  No OCR program can produce accurate text from scanned documents, even if the scans are good quality.  And not all scans are.

Agreed that it always needs checking/cleanup. But I seriously would like 
to OCR the manuals, instead of dealing bit bitmaps.

	Johnny


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 13:22:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:22:05 -0700
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <56057CBD.3080808@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56057CBD.3080808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <560590CD.5070506@sydex.com>

On 09/25/2015 09:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> What I/O board are you trying to figure out, Eric? A bunch of
> different manufacturers early Multibus Winchester controller boards
> used them.

The 8089 was a good idea but badly timed and terribly underpowered.  2 
channels of DMA, while a plain old 8257/8237 could give you 4.  When the 
80186 was being sampled, it too, had 2 channels of 20 bit DMA on-chip, 
so why fool with another chip.  In the meantime, RAM prices were headed 
lower, so having private RAM for an I/O device (e.g. hard disk) made DMA 
less important.

Good idea, wrong timing.  When I approached "Fast Eddie" our Intel sales 
guy, he gave me a bunch of documentation on the 8089 and told me that it 
wasn't worth looking into for a design.  This was about 1980.

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 13:23:22 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:23:22 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>

On 09/25/2015 07:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> He's going to find it rough going in trying to get the machines
> running with new/empty disks.  :-(  It's one of the fears that I have
> for my 3620 and 3640's in that I'd like to have replacement disks but
> without the manufacturing mojo, there's no way to put Genera and the
> bootstrap and uCode on a blank disk.

...so how fast will one of those run FORTRAN?

(Ducking and running for cover...)
Chuck

From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Sep 25 13:40:47 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 20:40:47 +0200
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <201509251318.JAA19261@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
 <201509251318.JAA19261@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20150925184046.GA99386@beast.freibergnet.de>

Mouse wrote:

> >> And I'd still have to write a disassembler.
> 
> If someone can point me at the assembly and machine language specs for
> the thing, I can add it to my disassembler....
> 
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


...found this:

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-000/Scans-0012901.pdf

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Sep 25 13:48:51 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:48:51 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com> <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <56059713.7030103@jwsss.com>



On 9/25/2015 11:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
> ...so how fast will one of those run FORTRAN?
>
> (Ducking and running for cover...) 
Possibly as fast as it runs Forth or Perl.  Two other write only languages.

I like Lisp, but it still is write only to my eye.  I have to really 
work over the listings every time I come back to them in all these cases.

thanks
Jim

From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:53:58 2015
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:53:58 -0400
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <20150925184046.GA99386@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
 <201509251318.JAA19261@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150925184046.GA99386@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <359A04E7-D96B-41E6-A982-54E7610BD66A@gmail.com>

MAME has an emulator and a disassembler since the Roland MT-32 uses this chip.

David

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> 
> Mouse wrote:
> 
>>>> And I'd still have to write a disassembler.
>> 
>> If someone can point me at the assembly and machine language specs for
>> the thing, I can add it to my disassembler....
>> 
>> /~\ The ASCII                  Mouse
>> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>> X  Against HTML        mouse at rodents-montreal.org
>> / \ Email!         7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
> 
> 
> ...found this:
> 
> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-000/Scans-0012901.pdf
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 
> -- 
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> 

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Sep 25 14:33:53 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 15:33:53 -0400
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>

?below...?

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:00 PM, <cctech-request at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> --------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
>
> http://www.eah-jena.de/~kleine/history/languages/ansi-x3dot9
> -1966-Fortran66.pdf
>
> The surprising thing is how spare the ANSI document is:  36 pages,
> including appendices.
>
> Compare to, say, F95...
>

?Chuck,

I sent your comment to one of the guys on the current ANSI standard, his
reply:

                      "Fortran 2015 is currently 617 pages and will go some
more before publication"?

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 14:50:30 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:50:30 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLbV0AT7uCHhQ9+0xLuBeP262F1v-j=MfbzKZDsZ6xiMrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com>
 <CADBZjLbV0AT7uCHhQ9+0xLuBeP262F1v-j=MfbzKZDsZ6xiMrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWB-8-XzDkiSfmMMZkF_zU9_ccw7DNovSVNvF7k4J_UNdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

A colleague of mine and I tested David Gesswein's MFM emulator (
http://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml) in his 3620; it was able to capture a
disk image from the 3620's MFM disk and successfully boot Genera from the
image.  So there is a solution, at least if you happen to have a system
using MFM disks.  (And an image or working disk to start from...)

*loud cough* http://bit.ly/1WnK86K


>
>
> >
> >
> > On 9/25/15 7:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >
> >> Just stumbled across this. I don't know what more to the story there is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://kremlin.enterprises/post/129364443055/your-code-is-so-bad-we-had-to-make-etclocal
> >>
> >>
> >
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 14:56:44 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:56:44 -0700
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com>

On 09/25/2015 12:33 PM, Clem Cole wrote:

> "Fortran 2015 is currently 617 pages and will go some more before
> publication"?

It does make one curious to ask if *any* language has ever had a smaller 
manual/specification than any previous version.

If the answer is "no", then we must have a new "law":

"Languages and their documentation will become ever more voluminous and 
incomprehensible"


--Chuck


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Sep 25 15:19:59 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:19:59 -0400
Subject: Scheme specifications - Re: cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5605AC6F.2060503@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-25 3:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/25/2015 12:33 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>> "Fortran 2015 is currently 617 pages and will go some more before
>> publication"?
>
> It does make one curious to ask if *any* language has ever had a smaller
> manual/specification than any previous version.

Wasn't Scheme r7rs smaller and simpler than the widely derided Scheme r6rs?

--Toby

>
> If the answer is "no", then we must have a new "law":
>
> "Languages and their documentation will become ever more voluminous and
> incomprehensible"
>
>
> --Chuck
>
>


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Sep 25 15:25:53 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:25:53 -0600
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5605ADD1.5080909@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/25/2015 1:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/25/2015 12:33 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>> "Fortran 2015 is currently 617 pages and will go some more before
>> publication"?
>
> It does make one curious to ask if *any* language has ever had a smaller
> manual/specification than any previous version.
>
> If the answer is "no", then we must have a new "law":
>
> "Languages and their documentation will become ever more voluminous and
> incomprehensible"

Does the include the source code too?

> --Chuck
>



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri Sep 25 15:35:25 2015
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:35:25 +1200
Subject: Amstrad CPC6128 joins the rest home
Message-ID: <CACaZngmYHMn1LY_gvpCPG0YaLZGn9ApMX13eO5WgOFRr2Hw8LA@mail.gmail.com>

It's a busy life nowadays but never too busy to kit out a newly-acquired
Amstrad CPC6128.

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-09-24-amstrad6128-acquire-fix-and-stockup.htm
for those who might be interested.

It's the first time I've played with those 3 inch disks.

Tez

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 15:35:43 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:35:43 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>

On 9/25/15 11:06 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> But I seriously would like to OCR the manuals

WHICH manuals are you complaining about?
I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?




From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Sep 25 15:36:49 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:36:49 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHLEQ2k1USLjWKj35zey_Be4X0drz6XUXUakhpza0VQQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56055DBF.2090006@shiresoft.com> <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5605B061.6010900@bitsavers.org>

On 9/25/15 11:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> ...so how fast will one of those run FORTRAN?
>

as fast as their owners needed to.




From andy.holt at tesco.net  Fri Sep 25 15:38:42 2015
From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 20:38:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>

> ...so how fast will one of those run FORTRAN?

The determined Real Programmer can write FORTRAN programs in any language. :)

But LISP /is/ pushing the limits of that ?

From als at thangorodrim.ch  Fri Sep 25 15:56:36 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 22:56:36 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
References: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:33:59PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/24/2015 04:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> 
> >IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max
> >capacity on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that
> >one.
> 
> So, if you were to move up from the 500GB SATA drives to the "next
> generation", which would you choose?

My last set of drives where WD Red 2TB drives. They are designed for NAS,
so can deal with 24/7 operation. One word of warning on those: by default
they spin down on idle (and spin up again on access). In a typical light
loaded environment, that is likely to run up the load cycles sky high
in a hurry. So I recommended completely disabling that (note: after
changing this setting, the drives need a power cycle).

Older ones: I'm quite fond of WD RE series drives, a bit more expensive
but from my experience very reliable.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From als at thangorodrim.ch  Fri Sep 25 15:52:44 2015
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 22:52:44 +0200
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <56049256.9060408@bitsavers.org> <560495F2.7060607@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20150925205244.GC32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 06:31:46PM -0600, ben wrote:
> On 9/24/2015 6:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> >Word on the street is stay away from WD for the near future. They've had
> >massive
> >QC problems.
> >
> I wonder what is happening in the clouds?

They pay very close attention and are _very_ picky which drives they buy ;-)

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From mark at markesystems.com  Fri Sep 25 16:03:09 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:03:09 -0700
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443200400.67083.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443200400.67083.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus>

>> Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the
>> conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with
>> the LastGeneratedArtifactID table.
>>

> Because my artifact ID's are not always just numbers.  In some cases
> they may already be marked on an artifact (though typically not for
> manuals - but this is just the first of a set of such projects, and they
> *are* marked on many of my computer boards).

You can still force the artifact ID VARCHARS to be unique, and index them as
well, of course.  There are at least a couple of reasons to have primary
keys that are independent of the "visible" key.  First, if the user-visible
key ever changes (what if the inventory tag falls off and is lost?), that
will break all the links that refer to that record (or else you'll need
extra code to handle this).  Also, there have been many times when some
aspect of a key that's directly tied to an external bit of information needs
to change format - numeric to character, or length change, or...  This too
will break things.

> No, I don't need made up primary keys.  The other tables have the keys
> they need to guarantee uniqueness - in some cases the PK is made of up
> two or more columns.  I seriously dislike the current fad of inventing
> such keys when they are not needed.

I too used to develop new databases this way, figuring that since a certain
bit of information is guaranteed to be unique (or that I want to guarantee
its uniqueness), I'd use that for the primary key.  After getting bitten
more times than not, I now almost always create an auto-number key whose
only purpose may be for internal linkage.

(I recently developed a project using Zoho Creator, which was a learning
experience to say the least.  It's worth noting that an explicit ID field is
part of *every* data table that you can create there - there's no way around
it.  And, it turned out that it was pretty darn helpful a lot of the time,
too.)

>> Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite might 
>> be a better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process ie. no 
>> external
>> dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the physical 
>> database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much 'lighter' db 
>> footprint.
>>
> As I mentioned in another response, I truly dislike SQLite, based on my
> experience with it on my Garmin GPS.

I'm still not sure why - my experience has been very good.  What bad 
experiences have you had?
~~
Mark Moulding 


From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 25 16:08:30 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:08:30 -0500
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPNCoK0xrWNoBb2p26-4QLjXOzOy1Yy7f+OGB7A5a=MBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
 <CACwhfuPNCoK0xrWNoBb2p26-4QLjXOzOy1Yy7f+OGB7A5a=MBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5605B7CE.9070104@charter.net>

On 9/25/2015 1:00 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback everyone.
> 
> The 17 class # should be the type of wire used in the cable, so maybe the
> -00 ans -01 is the difference .
> 

That would surprise me.  That last two digit suffix is typically a revision.

> I'm just trying to sure weather or not the RL and RK cables are
> interchangeable. Sounds like the RK might work on the RL, but not the other
> way.
> 

I think that has been my experience.  I know that the RL cables do not
work with the RK drives, because I tried it once.

> I have plastic and metal terminators, and the same with the cables and was
> trying to remember if that had anything to do with it.

I have only ever seen plastic ones, and I have both kind of drives.  So,
no, I don't think so.

> 
> Seems like we used to use the BC80 M and J for any controller when we had
> them.
> 
> For whatever reason DEC replaced the 70-12122  with the BC21Z.
> 
> Is the 70-12145 the electrical connector for the transition bracket, the
> metal mounting bracket, or the entire assembly?
> 

>From the RL01/02 user guide it appears that part number is for the
assembly. I ran out of time before I could check the controller documents.


> Thanks, Paul
> 
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 9/25/2015 7:24 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> The RK06/07 cable connects all pins. The RL01/02 one connects only those
>> used
>>> by the RL drives. I doubt the characteristic impedance is different as
>> the terminators
>>> are the same.
>>>
>>> -tony
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Actually, the terminators for the RL and RK06/07 drives are *identical*,
>> part number 70-12293-xx (The RL manual has no XX, the RK06/7 manual as
>> 0-0 for XX, but no worries, that is just a revision number) .
>>
>> Darn good thing, too, because the terminators have no markings on them.  ;)
>>
>> The wire in my RK06/RK07 cables has part number 1700051-00 on it. (Not a
>> reliable indicator - see below).  According to the manual, the RK06/RK07
>> cable assembly part numbers are 70-12292-LL where LL (length) may be 8,
>> 12, 25 or 40.  All of my RK06/RK07 cables have the part number.
>>
>> The wire in my RL cables is marked two different ways.  One cable has
>> the DEC part number for the cable itself (70-12122-10), and the wire is
>> part number 1700051-01 (same as the RK cable!), and is marked AWM ...
>> 2464.  Others, which have no DEC part number on either the cable or the
>> wire, has AWM ... JUDD Wire Div. Style 2576 on the wire.
>>
>> The wire I have on my RK06/07 cables is smooth and stiff, whereas the
>> wire in the RL cables tends to be more "bumpy" and more flexible and
>> shinier.  However, given the wire part number 1700051-xx appears on both
>> kinds, and is not shiny, wire used is itself not a reliable indicator.
>>
>> The DEC part numbers for the RL cables themselves apparently varies:
>>
>> BC20J-XX DEC part number 70-12122-10 - RL11, RLV11
>> BC80J-20 - RL8A
>> BC80M-6 - RLV12
>>
>> I would say that if an unmarked cable is 6, 10 or 20 feet long, and
>> flexible it is mostly like an RL cable.   If the cable is 8, 12, 25, or
>> 40 feet long it is probably an RK06/07 cable.
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> 

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 16:36:57 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:36:57 -0700
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <5605ADD1.5080909@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <mailman.2.1443200400.67083.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAC20D2OZiACRqnbESe=LQ83+oQvoNOfvaeLoLaGGT15q7dSbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5605A6FC.1030809@sydex.com> <5605ADD1.5080909@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5605BE79.7040107@sydex.com>

On 09/25/2015 01:25 PM, ben wrote:

> Does the include the source code too?

Source code to what?  The compiler?  The run-time?  Nowhere does any 
specification that I'm aware of state that there has to be either.  Just 
a human/robot/monkey following the rules laid down in the specification.

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 25 16:48:31 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:48:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for some DEC-related spares..
Message-ID: <20150925214831.6A2C218C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: tony duell

    > 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!)

Hammer them straight, and clean up the threads with a die. Those outriggers
are unobtainium, so I can't imagine the feet are much better.

    > switch mechanisms for the PDP11/45 front panel. I have the toggles
    > (thankfully), I need the switches

Now you're really into unobtainium territory. We've been moaning about the
inability to find these for a while now. All the early 11's (except the
11/20) use these - 11/05, 11/40, 11/45, etc - and a bunch of us need them,
but nothing doing.

	Noel

From wilson at dbit.com  Fri Sep 25 16:56:59 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:56:59 -0400
Subject: RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPNCoK0xrWNoBb2p26-4QLjXOzOy1Yy7f+OGB7A5a=MBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuO1WOZipE_wQZuD0pGW6tngsJaW2KsK6_MgfwbYU_zQEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5D59@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5605634D.5000409@charter.net>
 <CACwhfuPNCoK0xrWNoBb2p26-4QLjXOzOy1Yy7f+OGB7A5a=MBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150925215659.GA19750@dbit.dbit.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 01:00:32PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote:
>I'm just trying to sure weather or not the RL and RK cables are
>interchangeable. Sounds like the RK might work on the RL, but not the other
>way.

That matches my understanding (I used to run both).  They definitely
don't interchange *both* ways.

>I have plastic and metal terminators, and the same with the cables and was
>trying to remember if that had anything to do with it.

I thought the shiny ones were just the FCC version, but I wasn't really
paying attention.  I think those do interchange both ways.

John Wilson
D Bit

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 25 18:43:02 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:43:02 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>,
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>


Boot strapping a machine isn't impossible. It may be difficult but not impossible.
I boot strapped a IMSAI with a "DigitalSystems" disk drive and controller.
I'll admit I did know 8080 code but I had to start from scratch on the
disk controller.
No nice little WD controller chip to start with, just a 12X12 board to TTL.
I didn't even know it was a DMA device when I started.
I've trouble shot a 20 bit mini with no schematics.
A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a determined
hacker.
If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.
Dwight

 		 	   		  

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 19:03:37 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:03:37 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWCSWdXqFyi8+=86knx9Jx8hwzAQt1EsfHPfqEhy+NXA=w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry, I usually try and keep it together on this list.
Dwight- your post is a shitpost.

(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit+Posting)

I'm not gonna delve into details, but the Symbolics machines have a
substantial number of unique challenges going for them. It's not as if none
of us have invested substantial time into understanding what's going on.

It's an extremely complicated, largely undocumented system.

Impossible? No. That said, your experience with bootstrapping an IMSAI
could not possibly be a more irrelevant anecdote.

But I do appreciate that you bootstrapped an S-100 machine once.

"A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a
determined
hacker.
If it was designed to run it can be made to run again."

> If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.

It wasn't. That's part of the problem.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 4:43 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Boot strapping a machine isn't impossible. It may be difficult but not
> impossible.
> I boot strapped a IMSAI with a "DigitalSystems" disk drive and controller.
> I'll admit I did know 8080 code but I had to start from scratch on the
> disk controller.
> No nice little WD controller chip to start with, just a 12X12 board to TTL.
> I didn't even know it was a DMA device when I started.
> I've trouble shot a 20 bit mini with no schematics.
> A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a
> determined
> hacker.
> If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.
> Dwight
>
>




-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Sep 25 19:55:36 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:55:36 -0700
Subject: Moving PDP 11 gear - Status update
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UO16VihxC0xDMUvHHJ9Q8ZTomm8+CUJ+h032VTKocPwqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UO16VihxC0xDMUvHHJ9Q8ZTomm8+CUJ+h032VTKocPwqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A6B75D5A-CADE-4587-B53B-EA4A040B6E7B@nf6x.net>


> On Sep 24, 2015, at 22:20 , devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I had the machine fired up for an hour or two, i was messing with the front
> panel when i heard a fizzing sound followed by a burning smell.

Was it a burning paper smell, or some other kind of burning? If it was a burning paper smell, then the capacitor used to be translucent yellow and rectangular before it caught on fire. :)

Thanks for the update, and I'm looking forward to more news!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 25 20:17:51 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:17:51 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWCSWdXqFyi8+=86knx9Jx8hwzAQt1EsfHPfqEhy+NXA=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>,
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>,
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>,
 <CAHQ+QWCSWdXqFyi8+=86knx9Jx8hwzAQt1EsfHPfqEhy+NXA=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W1920272199D7AEBF49C7C4A3410@phx.gbl>


 > From: ian.finder at gmail.com
> 
> I'm sorry, I usually try and keep it together on this list.
> Dwight- your post is a shitpost.
> 
> (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit+Posting)
> 
> I'm not gonna delve into details, but the Symbolics machines have a
> substantial number of unique challenges going for them. It's not as if none
> of us have invested substantial time into understanding what's going on.
> 
> It's an extremely complicated, largely undocumented system.
> 
> Impossible? No. That said, your experience with bootstrapping an IMSAI
> could not possibly be a more irrelevant anecdote.
> 
> But I do appreciate that you bootstrapped an S-100 machine once.
> 
> "A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a
> determined
> hacker.
> If it was designed to run it can be made to run again."
> 
> > If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.
> 
> It wasn't. That's part of the problem.
> 

I don't know you and you obviously don't know me.
I know many people like you. Many that claim to know what they are
doing and are experts in there fields.
I am curious about you statement" It wasn't", as to designed to run.
Dwight

 
 		 	   		  

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Sep 25 20:20:05 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:20:05 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5605F2C5.5020709@shiresoft.com>



On 9/25/15 4:43 PM, dwight wrote:
> Boot strapping a machine isn't impossible. It may be difficult but not impossible.
> I boot strapped a IMSAI with a "DigitalSystems" disk drive and controller.
> I'll admit I did know 8080 code but I had to start from scratch on the
> disk controller.
> No nice little WD controller chip to start with, just a 12X12 board to TTL.
> I didn't even know it was a DMA device when I started.
> I've trouble shot a 20 bit mini with no schematics.
> A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a determined
> hacker.
> If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.
> Dwight
>
>   	
No, it's not impossible but damned difficult.  First there is the FE 
code that gets loaded from disk.
The FE then loads the LM uCode.  Once the LM uCode is running, it then 
loads Genera.  In addition,
I don't think the disk format was described (at least at the level 
necessary for booting).  Oh and
neither the micro-instructions nor the macro instructions are documented 
in any way.

Some work has been done to build an emulator but it was based upon 
trying to emulate the code
that ran on the Alpha.  No one to my knowledge has created an emulator 
for the 36xx series
machines.

TTFN - Guy


From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Sep 25 20:23:04 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 20:23:04 -0500
Subject: Thoughts on manual database design?
In-Reply-To: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443200400.67083.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <5605F378.8090809@charter.net>

On 9/25/2015 4:03 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote:

> 
>>> Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite
>>> might be a better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process
>>> ie. no external
>>> dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the
>>> physical database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much
>>> 'lighter' db footprint.
>>>
>> As I mentioned in another response, I truly dislike SQLite, based on my
>> experience with it on my Garmin GPS.
> 
> I'm still not sure why - my experience has been very good.  What bad
> experiences have you had?
> ~~
> Mark Moulding
> 

My Garmin has had data integrity issues in its database.  Plus, lack of
*convenient* tools, and having to rummage around here and there to find
them.

On top of that, this will be part of an online web app some day, so
having the database in the address space of the web server is probably
not a Good Thing.

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 15:45:53 2015
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:45:53 -0400
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a BA11K power supply out of a pdp 11/34 that has frozen up fans.
They are frozen up pretty bad. I heard from another list member here they
are repairable, any advice on how to do so?

--Devin

From a13stesk at student.his.se  Fri Sep 25 16:05:42 2015
From: a13stesk at student.his.se (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 23:05:42 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1443215142.1791.2.camel@student.his.se>

fre 2015-09-25 klockan 11:18 -0400 skrev Sean Caron:
> Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted 
> to
> make an offer on one of they were in the US...
> 
> Best,
> 

Pontus Pihlgren
Rasby-Hammarby
755 96 Uppsala 
Sweden

It isn't that far to Arlanda.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 16:32:31 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:32:31 -0400
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucAetKme1z6yhS6tyO-GRRUxSuicJC9W5V=Tk5sjmnYHw@mail.gmail.com>

Replace with same size and voltage fans assuming you are getting enough
power to the fans.    I suggest replace with new same spec fans don't  try
to fix old worn out fan.  Vital to keep power cool with a good set of
fans.  Easy to remove, log for hinged cover.
Bill

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 25, 2015 4:45 PM, "devin davison" <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a BA11K power supply out of a pdp 11/34 that has frozen up fans.
> They are frozen up pretty bad. I heard from another list member here they
> are repairable, any advice on how to do so?
>
> --Devin
>

From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Fri Sep 25 16:28:59 2015
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 17:28:59 -0400
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88761407-7BEA-43B7-9FDB-C7FA360B271F@VMSSoftware.com>

The DEC fans that are now a few decades past end of life the bearing wear out.

Nemonix Engineering has made (new not refurbished) fans that are sealed so they do not dry out.  Something to keep in mind - one of the things I remember was that as the fan slows down (prior to full death) since the fan is running slower than spec it causes the mother board to over heats.  I am not a very technical p person so you probably already know this.

Warm Regards,
Sue

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 4:45 PM, devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a BA11K power supply out of a pdp 11/34 that has frozen up fans.
> They are frozen up pretty bad. I heard from another list member here they
> are repairable, any advice on how to do so?
> 
> --Devin

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations




From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 14:50:54 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 15:50:54 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <5604DA50.3010900@gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604DA50.3010900@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUCGoSRwvpArHjA7+hXkHmdBrOncf7M8Pf9quOU-hOhZw@mail.gmail.com>

Very nice, thank you! That DPS-6 page wasn't kidding when they said the
boards were on the large side! Very interesting; they definitely have their
own unique style about them ... they really liked to use daugherboards!
That memory expansion card is sort of unusual. As is the edge connector for
the bus.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics
>> of
>> the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a
>> Honeywell
>> machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>
> I put a few pictures up here:
>
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dps6/
>
> Nice bitslice processor in there, an Ethernet controller, some memory
> (looks like 2MB) and as for the other boards, I'm not yet sure...)
>
> - Josh
>
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no
>>> documents and have forgotten everything I knew.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh
>>>> Dersch
>>>> Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45
>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>>> Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
>>>>
>>>> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside
>>>> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this
>>>>
>>> model (a
>>>
>>>> badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732").  I can take
>>>>
>>> some
>>>
>>>> detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up
>>>>
>>> (it's very,
>>>
>>>> very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on
>>>>
>>> this site:
>>>
>>>> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have any docs on this thing?  Or fun anecdotes to share?  What
>>>>
>>> have
>>>
>>>> I gotten myself into with this thing?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 17:55:02 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:55:02 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
 <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>

The WDC REs are not bad drives at all but IMO Hitachi Ultrastar is the best
line going right now. I have been working with them for some time from 0.5T
through 3T under very high duty cycle and they are fairly bulletproof. The
REs will do the work, but I have seen higher failure rates on them right
out of the box and higher failure rates on them in the longer term (~3
years) versus the Hitachi. I am hesitant to trust Seagate for large scale
enterprise use though I think they are fine to use at home, in lighter duty
cycle applications or in USB enclosures, etc.

The distinction you point out is very important particularly when selecting
drives to use in constructing a RAID; it's critical to avoid those drives
that attempt to spin down or sleep when idle; this confuses the heck out of
RAID and will cause the admin (we, the builder) no end of misery... usually
it's easy to identify these drives because they are marketed as "Green" or
"energy saver" but for some of the midrange product lines ... "prosumer"
... sometimes you have to dig a little to get to the facts. I think these
Green drives are the worst thing on the market since the old Quantum
Bigfoot; I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

I suggest starting with the keyword "enterprise SATA" and going from there
... these drives are certified for array use 24/7 and ship without any
"power saving" nonsense straight from the OEM ... the premium over a normal
consumer SATA disk is not really too awful. These generally use identical
or very closely related HBAs to the premium SAS disks but just with
different SATA-only formatter board. No real need to go SAS unless you
require multipath.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.ch>
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:33:59PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > On 09/24/2015 04:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> >
> > >IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max
> > >capacity on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that
> > >one.
> >
> > So, if you were to move up from the 500GB SATA drives to the "next
> > generation", which would you choose?
>
> My last set of drives where WD Red 2TB drives. They are designed for NAS,
> so can deal with 24/7 operation. One word of warning on those: by default
> they spin down on idle (and spin up again on access). In a typical light
> loaded environment, that is likely to run up the load cycles sky high
> in a hurry. So I recommended completely disabling that (note: after
> changing this setting, the drives need a power cycle).
>
> Older ones: I'm quite fond of WD RE series drives, a bit more expensive
> but from my experience very reliable.
>
> Kind regards,
>            Alex.
> --
> "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
>  looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri Sep 25 17:55:41 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:55:41 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE11GVaP1cs9Kq_5G9AyjVgQbwiVhqOzvt5ZFYsom9z+vsRjTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509150933180.26786@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
 <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV2PyirZr26svS+cxR3qQUbqexOnRZQSUaYhtmSSvYBdw@mail.gmail.com>

Er, sorry, HDAs, not HBAs :O

Best,

Sean

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 6:55 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> The WDC REs are not bad drives at all but IMO Hitachi Ultrastar is the
> best line going right now. I have been working with them for some time from
> 0.5T through 3T under very high duty cycle and they are fairly bulletproof.
> The REs will do the work, but I have seen higher failure rates on them
> right out of the box and higher failure rates on them in the longer term
> (~3 years) versus the Hitachi. I am hesitant to trust Seagate for large
> scale enterprise use though I think they are fine to use at home, in
> lighter duty cycle applications or in USB enclosures, etc.
>
> The distinction you point out is very important particularly when
> selecting drives to use in constructing a RAID; it's critical to avoid
> those drives that attempt to spin down or sleep when idle; this confuses
> the heck out of RAID and will cause the admin (we, the builder) no end of
> misery... usually it's easy to identify these drives because they are
> marketed as "Green" or "energy saver" but for some of the midrange product
> lines ... "prosumer" ... sometimes you have to dig a little to get to the
> facts. I think these Green drives are the worst thing on the market since
> the old Quantum Bigfoot; I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.
>
> I suggest starting with the keyword "enterprise SATA" and going from there
> ... these drives are certified for array use 24/7 and ship without any
> "power saving" nonsense straight from the OEM ... the premium over a normal
> consumer SATA disk is not really too awful. These generally use identical
> or very closely related HBAs to the premium SAS disks but just with
> different SATA-only formatter board. No real need to go SAS unless you
> require multipath.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:33:59PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> > On 09/24/2015 04:30 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>> >
>> > >IMHO, you want to buy at one generation below the current max
>> > >capacity on the assumption that they ironed out the bugs on that
>> > >one.
>> >
>> > So, if you were to move up from the 500GB SATA drives to the "next
>> > generation", which would you choose?
>>
>> My last set of drives where WD Red 2TB drives. They are designed for NAS,
>> so can deal with 24/7 operation. One word of warning on those: by default
>> they spin down on idle (and spin up again on access). In a typical light
>> loaded environment, that is likely to run up the load cycles sky high
>> in a hurry. So I recommended completely disabling that (note: after
>> changing this setting, the drives need a power cycle).
>>
>> Older ones: I'm quite fond of WD RE series drives, a bit more expensive
>> but from my experience very reliable.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>            Alex.
>> --
>> "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
>> and
>>  looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A.
>> Edison
>>
>
>

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 20:34:09 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:34:09 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W1920272199D7AEBF49C7C4A3410@phx.gbl>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAHQ+QWCSWdXqFyi8+=86knx9Jx8hwzAQt1EsfHPfqEhy+NXA=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W1920272199D7AEBF49C7C4A3410@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWDw2KiC=4C3yFJNwgX3mDZoDJWtAyDa5CgOUUxLEa_64g@mail.gmail.com>

The "wasn't" was a hint to indicate that the "OS" for the purpose of this
conversation - actually the disklabel and FEP code- was never available or
intended to be loaded outside of a factory / support environment.

For all I know, the disk controller may require special microcode to be
able to write the volume header. I have no real idea-

I'm not claiming any amount of expertise- only that a microcoded,
undocumented 36-bit machine with it's own secondary frontend IOP, multiple
microcoded bit-slice based custom IO subsystems, and no known external
software tools is a little different than an 8-bit toy computer kit.

Guy's response touches on the broader strokes- the ISA for the main
processor itself isn't even documented.



On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 6:17 PM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>  > From: ian.finder at gmail.com
> >
> > I'm sorry, I usually try and keep it together on this list.
> > Dwight- your post is a shitpost.
> >
> > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit+Posting)
> >
> > I'm not gonna delve into details, but the Symbolics machines have a
> > substantial number of unique challenges going for them. It's not as if
> none
> > of us have invested substantial time into understanding what's going on.
> >
> > It's an extremely complicated, largely undocumented system.
> >
> > Impossible? No. That said, your experience with bootstrapping an IMSAI
> > could not possibly be a more irrelevant anecdote.
> >
> > But I do appreciate that you bootstrapped an S-100 machine once.
> >
> > "A lisp machine would clearly be difficult but not impossible for a
> > determined
> > hacker.
> > If it was designed to run it can be made to run again."
> >
> > > If it was designed to run it can be made to run again.
> >
> > It wasn't. That's part of the problem.
> >
>
> I don't know you and you obviously don't know me.
> I know many people like you. Many that claim to know what they are
> doing and are experts in there fields.
> I am curious about you statement" It wasn't", as to designed to run.
> Dwight
>
>
>




-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Sep 25 21:04:18 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 21:04:18 -0500
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com>
 <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
 <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150926020418.GA21461@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 06:55:02PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> since the old Quantum Bigfoot

There's no need to swear :-)

mcl

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 25 21:23:56 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 21:23:56 -0500
Subject: Looking for some DEC-related spares..
In-Reply-To: <20150925214831.6A2C218C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150925214831.6A2C218C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <560601BC.7030604@pico-systems.com>

On 09/25/2015 04:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: tony duell
>
>      > 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!)
>
> Hammer them straight, and clean up the threads with a die. Those outriggers
> are unobtainium, so I can't imagine the feet are much better.
>
>
Umm, actually, there is a large industrial business in 
making equipment/furniture feet.  You can get these sorts of 
metal or nylon feet with threaded posts from several 
manufacturers.  (Now, I can't think of the names off the top 
of my head.)  You will even find a few of them in a good 
hardware store.  You might check outfits like MSC that sells 
a lot of machine tool supplies.  Also Carr-Lane has them, 
under "leveling feet".

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Sep 25 21:28:28 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 19:28:28 -0700
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150926020418.GA21461@lonesome.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151335360.32673@users.757.org>
 <201509151749.NAA20700@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <55F86549.9030600@sydex.com>
 <201509151919.PAA13276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509151525470.32673@users.757.org>
 <55F8793B.3030501@sydex.com> <20150924233034.GE19283@thangorodrim.de>
 <5604EAD7.5040603@sydex.com>
 <20150925205636.GD32341@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAA43vkX95uki+aU_2hNh1ONbK1nGW5gm4s2ZZ8BO3f+ZzsdSCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150926020418.GA21461@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <560602CC.8080807@sydex.com>

On 09/25/2015 07:04 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 06:55:02PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
>> since the old Quantum Bigfoot
>
> There's no need to swear :-)

I know it's strange, but I still have a couple of systems that 
occasionally get used for some legacy bit of hardware or another and 
they both use the BFs--one, a 8GB, and the other an 128GB, TX 
series--both were purchased as factory refurbs.  I still have a couple 
of the 4GB CY drives in my storage cabinet and, at last test a couple of 
years ago, they worked fine.

The prize for swearing, IMOHO, goes to Kalok and JTS (particularly JTS) 
drives...

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Sep 25 21:18:04 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 21:18:04 -0500
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5606005C.8090502@pico-systems.com>

On 09/25/2015 03:45 PM, devin davison wrote:
> I have a BA11K power supply out of a pdp 11/34 that has frozen up fans.
> They are frozen up pretty bad. I heard from another list member here they
> are repairable, any advice on how to do so?
>
> --Devin
>
Generally, you can remove a snap ring and pull out several 
components from the hub of the fan.  Then, there is a TINY 
phosphor-bronze snap-ring on a post in the center.  When you 
remove it, be careful to shield the fan with your hand to 
catch the ring if it flies off.  Then, the fan can be 
removed from the motor stator. If ball bearings, you can 
measure and buy replacements from Boca Bearings (or other 
source).  if sleeve bearings, you may have to drip solvent 
into the bearing area first to loosen it up, then it will be 
possible to remove the fan, and clean the bearing and post. 
Then, oil liberally with 10W oil and reassemble.  Be sure to 
oil the felts as well.  For sleeve bearings, this is usually 
a stop-gap, but will work for seldom-used gear.  The Boca 
Bearings bearings usually get noisy sooner than the OEM 
bearings, but they will still last several years of running 
time.

Different brands have slightly different construction, but 
many of them follow the above general design.

Jon

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 23:09:40 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 21:09:40 -0700
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUCGoSRwvpArHjA7+hXkHmdBrOncf7M8Pf9quOU-hOhZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLYocjciLLsLZM+Rk_ZvipqY_tbzyxVRTSdfFaM-+16XeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01ac01d0f649$693b16b0$3bb14410$@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604DA50.3010900@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUCGoSRwvpArHjA7+hXkHmdBrOncf7M8Pf9quOU-hOhZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56061A84.2050907@gmail.com>



On 9/25/15 12:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Very nice, thank you!

No problem at all!

> That DPS-6 page wasn't kidding when they said the
> boards were on the large side! Very interesting; they definitely have their
> own unique style about them ... they really liked to use daugherboards!
> That memory expansion card is sort of unusual. As is the edge connector for
> the bus.

Yeah, the boards are similar in dimension to DG Nova stuff or Sun VME, 
and they crammed a lot of stuff on them with all of the daughterboards 
-- it looks like the Ethernet board could hold up to four interfaces...

Unfortunately, I've now had time to trace down all of the cabling and 
there are no storage controllers (disk, tape, and floppy) present so 
this thing is likely to remain a very large boat anchor for the 
foreseeable future.  (Not that I'm likely to find media either :)).

- Josh



From sellam at vintagetech.com  Fri Sep 25 20:45:17 2015
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FOR SALE: IMSAI 8080, Canon Cat, PDP 11/05, Heathkit H11, Polymorphic
 Systems POLY88, SWTPC 6800
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509251834590.27808@vintagetech.com>


I have the following systems presently for sale:

IMSAI 8080
http://vintagetech.com/sales/IMSAI%208080/

Canon Cat
http://vintagetech.com/sales/Canon%20Cat/

PDP 11/05
http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-05.JPG

Heathkit H11
http://vintagetech.com/sales/Heathkit%20H11/

Polymorphic Systems POLY88
http://vintagetech.com/sales/Polymorphic%20Systems%20POLY88/

SWTPC 6800
http://vintagetech.com/sales/SWTPC%206800/

Please inquire in private e-mail for more information and price 
(negotiable).

Thanks!

--

Sellam ibn Abraham                                                 VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 25 23:31:02 2015
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 21:31:02 -0700
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWDw2KiC=4C3yFJNwgX3mDZoDJWtAyDa5CgOUUxLEa_64g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>,
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>,
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>,
 <CAHQ+QWCSWdXqFyi8+=86knx9Jx8hwzAQt1EsfHPfqEhy+NXA=w@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BLU168-W1920272199D7AEBF49C7C4A3410@phx.gbl>,
 <CAHQ+QWDw2KiC=4C3yFJNwgX3mDZoDJWtAyDa5CgOUUxLEa_64g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU168-W15BBC44DE9CCCCBF7C7C40A3410@phx.gbl>

> From: ian.finder at gmail.com
>> 
> The "wasn't" was a hint to indicate that the "OS" for the purpose of this
> conversation - actually the disklabel and FEP code- was never available or
> intended to be loaded outside of a factory / support environment.
> 
> For all I know, the disk controller may require special microcode to be
> able to write the volume header. I have no real idea-
> 
> I'm not claiming any amount of expertise- only that a microcoded,
> undocumented 36-bit machine with it's own secondary frontend IOP, multiple
> microcoded bit-slice based custom IO subsystems, and no known external
> software tools is a little different than an 8-bit toy computer kit.
> 
> Guy's response touches on the broader strokes- the ISA for the main
> processor itself isn't even documented.
> 
>
 
I get no credit for repairing a 20 bit computer without schematic.
Not 36 bit but still of some worth.
The disk controller on the imsai was a bit controlled state machine.
Not 36 bit but not a trivial toy repair either.
I think you don't know me.
Dwight
 
Dwight
 
 		 	   		  

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Fri Sep 25 22:41:03 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 23:41:03 -0400
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56057D5F.7090604@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150925165709.B130F18C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <56057D5F.7090604@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <560613CF.6000108@compsys.to>

 >Al Kossow wrote:

> >On 9/25/15 9:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>> If you whip up a list of what you've got, I'd be happy to check it 
>> for you. 
>
> You REALLY want to check what Alan Frisbie has done this past year 
> before spending
> a lot of time on this. I see in alt.sys.pdp11 that he just listed an 
> RT 5.6 manual
> set on eBay. It is highly unlikely he would be selling it if it hasn't 
> already been
> scanned.

For anyone who is interested, the V05.06  RT-11  DOC set
is IDENTICAL to the V05.07  RT-11  DOC set EXCEPT
for the Release Notes.

As far as I know, ALL of those manuals have been scanned
into PDF files and are available for download.  In practice,
that means there are two Release Notes manuals, one for
V05.06 of RT-11 and another for V05.07 of RT-11.  And
there is a single manual for the rest of the RT-11  DOC set
manuals for both V05.06 of RT-11 and V05.07 of RT-11
since Mentec made no changes at all to any of the V05.06
RT-11 DOC set manuals EXCEPT for the Release Notes.

If anyone would appreciate a link to the PDF files for these
manuals, please ask.  I don't have it handy at the moment.
But it should not be difficult to find the link again.

Jerome Fine

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Sep 26 00:53:02 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 07:53:02 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <1443215142.1791.2.camel@student.his.se>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1443215142.1791.2.camel@student.his.se>
Message-ID: <20150926055302.GA22825@Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:05:42PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote:
> 
> Pontus Pihlgren
> Rasby-Hammarby
> 755 96 Uppsala 
> Sweden
> 
> It isn't that far to Arlanda.

Nope, 40 minutes drive or so.

/P

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep 26 05:16:47 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 12:16:47 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/25/15 11:06 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> But I seriously would like to OCR the manuals
>
> WHICH manuals are you complaining about?

All of them.

> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?

Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago that 
I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on 
bitsavers then.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Sep 26 05:49:51 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 12:49:51 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se>
References: <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>
 <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150926104950.GB10068@Update.UU.SE>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 12:16:47PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
> >On 9/25/15 11:06 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >>But I seriously would like to OCR the manuals
> >
> >WHICH manuals are you complaining about?
> 
> All of them.

Of course it would be nice if all were OCR:ed and quite a few of 
them are. Which makes them searchable!

Al and others have done a tremendous job!

> 
> >I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
> >Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
> 
> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago
> that I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions
> on bitsavers then.

We should get of our asses and make update an official mirror. I 
certainly thunk we have the bandwidth for it.

/P

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 26 06:36:52 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 11:36:52 +0000
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I have a BA11K power supply out of a pdp 11/34 that has frozen up fans.
> They are frozen up pretty bad. I heard from another list member here they
> are repairable, any advice on how to do so?

I have repaired many fans over the years, I am not sure if I have done those
ones specifically. 

First remove them, take off any grilles, finger guards,etc so you are left with
the bare fan. Then, assuming an AC fan (I am pretty sure the ones in a BA11K
are 115V AC), measure the resistance between the terminals. If it is totally
open-circuit, then the winding has failed. Rewinding is often possible, but
not trivial, particularly not for something that has to stand mains voltage,
and you may decide it is better to replace the fan.

If the winding seems OK (or if the fan was running, albeit with a lot of 
noise, before you started this), then it's time to take it apart and deal with
the bearings. Theres is little consistency in how fans are assembled, alas..

Very occasionally, the outer housing is in 2 parts, held together by screws on
one side. If so, separate that first.

You now need to find out how the spindle and rotor is fixed : 

Look for a cap in the centre of the blades held down by a circlip. Remove the 
circlip, the cap, oil felts and washers (keep them in order) and you will see a tiny
circlip on the end of the spindle. Take that off, then any washers (which may be 
keyed to the spindle) and slide out the blades/rotor

OR

If there are screws on the hub of the blades (uncommon, but I have seen it), undo
those and remove the blades. This reveals the motor, there is a little circlip on
the end of the spindle as above, remove it and slide out the rotor

OR

There may be screws hidden under the label on the other side of the fan that retain
the motor stator. Take those out and carefully separate the motor from the housing. 
Carefully, so as not to damage the wiring connections. Then again there is a circlip, 
remove this and separate the rotor from the stator.

OR

The worst on is to have a cap hidden under the label. Once you have found this, 
remove it, then the circlip (getting familiar now), washers, and pull out the 
blades/rotor from the other side.

Now for the bearings. These will either be sleeve bearings or ball races. If the latter
(more common in DC fans) you can extract them from the housing and either replace 
(they will be a standard size) or take the covers off, flush out the old grease with a 
suitable solvent (petrol (gasoline) is good, but of course highly fammable), and repack
with high melting point grease. If sleeve bearings, try just cleaning everything and relubricating
with machine oil, If that doesn't help, you can extract them, but will probably have to make
(rather than buy) replacements from phosphor bronze or similar, which needs a good 
workshop. This sort of thing is worth doing on the PDP11/44 with its odd fans, possibly not
on more common ones.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 26 06:41:15 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 11:41:15 +0000
Subject: Looking for some DEC-related spares..
In-Reply-To: <20150925214831.6A2C218C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150925214831.6A2C218C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F99@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


>     > 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!)
> 
> Hammer them straight, and clean up the threads with a die. Those outriggers
> are unobtainium, so I can't imagine the feet are much better.

They would never take being straightened, the metal is partially fractured already.
I had assumed that while the outriggers were custom DEC, the feet were possibly a 
standard part (although with what appears to be a UNC thread probably not easy to
get over here). The obvious solution is to get a bit of metal rod, turn to size, mill the
hexagon and cut the thread, but I had hoped I could just buy it.


>     > switch mechanisms for the PDP11/45 front panel. I have the toggles
>     > (thankfully), I need the switches
> 
> Now you're really into unobtainium territory. We've been moaning about the
> inability to find these for a while now. All the early 11's (except the
> 11/20) use these - 11/05, 11/40, 11/45, etc - and a bunch of us need them,
> but nothing doing.

Right... OK.

I have found a little 4 slot Qbus box with 3 swtiches on the front, these seem to be the
same mechanisms behind the toggles. On the grounds my 11/45 is of more interest to me
than Qbus stuff, I may well be tempted to desolder them. If I ever find a source, I can rebuild
the Qbus panel.

-tony



        Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep 26 07:35:20 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:35:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
Message-ID: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

I'm not sure which is more amusing:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/191523958984

the price they expect to get, or calling it a 'mainframe'.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep 26 07:44:00 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:44:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for some DEC-related spares..
Message-ID: <20150926124400.9930A18C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: tony duell

    > They would never take being straightened, the metal is partially
    > fractured already.

Ah. OK. Well, a later poster mentioned a possible source of new feet - I had
assumed you wanted exactly identical ones, which may not be available, but if
all you want is functionality, you can probably find that from the sources
they provided.

    > I have found a little 4 slot Qbus box with 3 swtiches on the front,
    > these seem to be the same mechanisms behind the toggles.

Yes, they are: I fixed an 11/05 front panel with switches sourced from one of
those 11/03 front panels. I hated to do it, but the 11/03 panel was a spare,
and as you say, if the switches ever re-appear, I can repair it.

	Noel

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 26 07:48:15 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 13:48:15 +0100
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5606940F.2090803@btinternet.com>

Missing toggle switches = Not working for repair or parts. Value $500.00


On 26/09/2015 13:35, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> I'm not sure which is more amusing:
>
>    http://www.ebay.com/itm/191523958984
>
> the price they expect to get, or calling it a 'mainframe'.
>
> 	Noel

-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Sep 26 08:18:07 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 15:18:07 +0200
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <5606940F.2090803@btinternet.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5606940F.2090803@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20150926131807.GC10068@Update.UU.SE>

Come on guys, we have been over this a thousand times. Value is 
what someone is willing to pay.

And with 32kW of memory and resonable condition (no rust or 
rodents) the price is not off by a factor of ten as you suggest. 
Perhaps a factor two or three.

We'll see when the auction ends.

/P

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 01:48:15PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> Missing toggle switches = Not working for repair or parts. Value $500.00
> 
> 
> On 26/09/2015 13:35, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >I'm not sure which is more amusing:
> >
> >   http://www.ebay.com/itm/191523958984
> >
> >the price they expect to get, or calling it a 'mainframe'.
> >
> >	Noel
> 
> -- 
> Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

From steven at malikoff.com  Sat Sep 26 08:49:22 2015
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:49:22 +1000
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Pocket change compared to what the seller wants for this Olivetti Programma 101, priced to go!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olivetti-PROGRAMMA-101-signed-by-one-of-the-authors-PRE-ALTAIR-8800-AND-C4004-/271973010365
To me the signing on the top of the case sort of spoils the clean appearance, I think if would have been better if it had been on the bottom or inside the case. Not every
designer is as famous as Woz :)

Steve.

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
From:    "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Date:    Sat, September 26, 2015 10:35 pm
To:      cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc:      jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not sure which is more amusing:
>
>   http://www.ebay.com/itm/191523958984
>
> the price they expect to get, or calling it a 'mainframe'.
>
> 	Noel
>



From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 10:19:40 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:19:40 -0700
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150926131807.GC10068@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5606940F.2090803@btinternet.com> <20150926131807.GC10068@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <5606B78C.2050105@gmail.com>

On 9/26/15 6:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Come on guys, we have been over this a thousand times. Value is
> what someone is willing to pay.
>
> And with 32kW of memory and resonable condition (no rust or
> rodents) the price is not off by a factor of ten as you suggest.
> Perhaps a factor two or three.
>
> We'll see when the auction ends.
>
> /P

This particular 8/e has been listed for months with no bites (note the 
"last updated" date of June 9).  I'm not sure this auction will *ever* 
end. :)

Based on this, it's clearly overpriced.  But I agree, based on what 
8/e's have been pulling on eBay as of late, probably only off by a 
factor of two.

- Josh


>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 01:48:15PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> Missing toggle switches = Not working for repair or parts. Value $500.00
>>
>>
>> On 26/09/2015 13:35, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>> I'm not sure which is more amusing:
>>>
>>>    http://www.ebay.com/itm/191523958984
>>>
>>> the price they expect to get, or calling it a 'mainframe'.
>>>
>>> 	Noel
>> -- 
>> Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Sep 26 11:44:09 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 12:44:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
Message-ID: <20150926164409.5DAC818C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Sean Caron

    > the worst thing on the market since the old Quantum Bigfoot

Just out of curiousity, what was so bad about the Bigfoot?

	Noel

From sellam at vintagetech.com  Sat Sep 26 12:20:14 2015
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 10:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>


I wanted to share this because it's pretty neat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg

It's a ~6 minute tour of a home automation system from the 1980s that 
features graphical floor layouts and touch screen programming.  The system 
is built into the house.

--

Sellam ibn Abraham                                                 VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat Sep 26 14:51:23 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 12:51:23 -0700
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>
Message-ID: <BDFD98A2-7BE8-4378-9C24-521752302D49@fozztexx.com>


On Sep 26, 2015, at 10:20 AM, Sellam ibn Abraham <sellam at vintagetech.com> wrote:

> I wanted to share this because it's pretty neat:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg
> 
> It's a ~6 minute tour of a home automation system from the 1980s that 
> features graphical floor layouts and touch screen programming.  The system 
> is built into the house.

That screen looks so much like my HP 150 that I keep wondering if that?s what they used to build it.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From thebri at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 14:59:39 2015
From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 15:59:39 -0400
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget about this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191698368565

$17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.  He's missing the
box with the electronics, and, clearly, the cables...  At least it isn't
signed!

b


On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, <steven at malikoff.com> wrote:

> Pocket change compared to what the seller wants for this Olivetti
> Programma 101, priced to go!
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olivetti-PROGRAMMA-101-signed-by-one-of-the-authors-PRE-ALTAIR-8800-AND-C4004-/271973010365
> To me the signing on the top of the case sort of spoils the clean
> appearance, I think if would have been better if it had been on the bottom
> or inside the case. Not every
> designer is as famous as Woz :)
>
> Steve.
>
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Sep 26 11:11:18 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 11:11:18 -0500
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5606C3A6.6080709@pico-systems.com>

On 09/26/2015 06:36 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>
>>   If it is totally
>> open-circuit, then the winding has failed. Rewinding is often possible, but
>> not trivial, particularly not for something that has to stand mains voltage,
>> and you may decide it is better to replace the fan.
As far as I know, all the old DEC fans, from PDP-8 and 
PDP-11 models, are totally standard size, and can still be 
bought new from Digi-Key, Mouser, etc.  If it is more than a 
few drops of oil needed, then it makes NO SENSE to repair 
windings on a fan you can get for $15.

Jon

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 26 11:25:20 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:25:20 +0000
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <5606C3A6.6080709@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5606C3A6.6080709@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5FFA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> >> and you may decide it is better to replace the fan.
> As far as I know, all the old DEC fans, from PDP-8 and
> PDP-11 models, are totally standard size, and can still be
> bought new from Digi-Key, Mouser, etc.  If it is more than a
> few drops of oil needed, then it makes NO SENSE to repair
> windings on a fan you can get for $15.

I'll tell you one that you can't get -- the fan in the PDP11/44. 
That one is a standard outer dimension alright, but electrically
it's plain odd. 35V 70Hz AC or something. It runs from a full-H
circuit from the (possibly battery packed) 36V supply. There have
been suggestions to kludge in 12V DC fans, but I would not do 
that, the fan circuit _is_ part of the design of the PDP11/44 and 
should be preserved.

For the others, well, it may make 'NO SENSE' to you to rewind a 
fan, but I reckon I could rewind at least a DC fan (where insulation
is not a problem) in well under an hour (in fact I did, in one of my
HP9000s). And the wire is not exactly expensive. So it comes down
to the value of my time. Now I believe the value of something like
my time is what I can get for it -- in other words what somebody 
would pay me for an hour of my work. Which in my bitter experience
is close to zero. So it does make sense for me to do it. YMMV.

There is also the issue of keeping the machine as original as possible.
And the fact that a lot of the cheaper (i.e. $15) modern fans are very
poorly made. I think a rebuilt oriignal DEC fan would easily outlast one
of those.

-tony



From scaron at umich.edu  Sat Sep 26 12:54:09 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 13:54:09 -0400
Subject: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]
In-Reply-To: <20150926164409.5DAC818C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150926164409.5DAC818C0F2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWTyTtuvhXa1XW7BuTj9K8G0svL6iwHDyWef7tpKe0yxg@mail.gmail.com>

I began my first job ever working at a computer repair shop not soon after
those drives first hit the market and I recall them being pretty dodgy. I
replaced many Bigfoot drives when I was in high school! They were also dog
slow ... 3600 RPM, I think ...

The quality got better as time went on, if someone wanted to make the
calculated purchase to use one as a "data tank" and not care about the
throughput too much ... later Bigfoots were maybe okay for such an
application ... but they were always poor performers. I saw many home PCs
with needlessly crippled performance due to the inclusion of a Bigfoot
drive by the vendor trying to push GB/$.

Best,

Sean


On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Sean Caron
>
>     > the worst thing on the market since the old Quantum Bigfoot
>
> Just out of curiousity, what was so bad about the Bigfoot?
>
>         Noel
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Sep 26 14:45:08 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 14:45:08 -0500
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5FFA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5606C3A6.6080709@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5FFA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5606F5C4.5000502@pico-systems.com>

On 09/26/2015 11:25 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>
> I'll tell you one that you can't get -- the fan in the PDP11/44.
> That one is a standard outer dimension alright, but electrically
> it's plain odd. 35V 70Hz AC or something. It runs from a full-H
> circuit from the (possibly battery packed) 36V supply. There have
> been suggestions to kludge in 12V DC fans, but I would not do
> that, the fan circuit _is_ part of the design of the PDP11/44 and
> should be preserved.
Oh, wow!  We had a 44 a LONG time ago, I never knew about that!
>
>
> There is also the issue of keeping the machine as original as possible.
> And the fact that a lot of the cheaper (i.e. $15) modern fans are very
> poorly made. I think a rebuilt oriignal DEC fan would easily outlast one
> of those.
>
>
Well, fans come in many varieties.  There are Chinese 
knockoffs, and name-brand fans.  You can get plain sleeve 
bearings, "hydro-wave" bearings and ball bearings.  Good 
ball-bearing fans have a very long life, but may get a bit 
noisy near the end of their life.  These can also be 
re-bearing-ed quite easily, and it essentially makes them 
brand-new.  I've done this on my Dell desktop machines a few 
times. Yes, maybe the best fans do run over $15.

Jon

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Sat Sep 26 15:12:53 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 13:12:53 -0700
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>
Message-ID: <003201d0f897$babfb360$303f1a20$@net>

> It's a ~6 minute tour of a home automation system from the 1980s that
> features graphical floor layouts and touch screen programming.  The
> system is built into the house.

VERY NICE. I wish home automation systems now a day were as easy and simple
to use. I bet you this did not need "the cloud" so you could just set your
temperature!

-Ali


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep 26 15:28:09 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 22:28:09 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>
> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago that
> I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on
> bitsavers then.

Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would appear 
that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but then you 
have the basic text also available for selection/searching.

My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the experience 
just scrolling through them is pretty bad.

Sadly I don't even remember what software I used for OCR about 10 years 
ago, but I had something for Windows back then, which actually figured 
out fonts and all, and created a plain Word document from the OCR 
process. That was a really nice piece of software, which preserved 
formatting, fonts and all. I have a short example of the results at 
http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/Clarkson.pdf, which was just a scan of two 
pages from a book. I created the pdf from Word.
A process like that is what I'd like, except for figures, which needs to 
be kept as bitmaps, I suspect.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 15:45:43 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:45:43 -0400
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBonxPaxp0LUkymmGB0o+Uvy4pQBYHGbjivsTufain5qw@mail.gmail.com>

the cluelessness of the descriptive text on that basic 4 ad.  hilarious.
 'there are only two mainframes i know of in existence.'

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Brian Walenz <thebri at gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't forget about this one:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191698368565
>
> $17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.  He's missing the
> box with the electronics, and, clearly, the cables...  At least it isn't
> signed!
>
> b
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, <steven at malikoff.com> wrote:
>
> > Pocket change compared to what the seller wants for this Olivetti
> > Programma 101, priced to go!
> >
> >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olivetti-PROGRAMMA-101-signed-by-one-of-the-authors-PRE-ALTAIR-8800-AND-C4004-/271973010365
> > To me the signing on the top of the case sort of spoils the clean
> > appearance, I think if would have been better if it had been on the
> bottom
> > or inside the case. Not every
> > designer is as famous as Woz :)
> >
> > Steve.
> >
> >
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 16:35:22 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:35:22 -0400
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBonxPaxp0LUkymmGB0o+Uvy4pQBYHGbjivsTufain5qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfBonxPaxp0LUkymmGB0o+Uvy4pQBYHGbjivsTufain5qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufhgxCTQ3AGDUiCVYpCJ5aKdjxSibwoZiCqRL7KuNQoNA@mail.gmail.com>

Crap I paid $22,500 for mine.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 26, 2015 4:45 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:

> the cluelessness of the descriptive text on that basic 4 ad.  hilarious.
>  'there are only two mainframes i know of in existence.'
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Brian Walenz <thebri at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Don't forget about this one:
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/191698368565
> >
> > $17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.  He's missing the
> > box with the electronics, and, clearly, the cables...  At least it isn't
> > signed!
> >
> > b
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, <steven at malikoff.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Pocket change compared to what the seller wants for this Olivetti
> > > Programma 101, priced to go!
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olivetti-PROGRAMMA-101-signed-by-one-of-the-authors-PRE-ALTAIR-8800-AND-C4004-/271973010365
> > > To me the signing on the top of the case sort of spoils the clean
> > > appearance, I think if would have been better if it had been on the
> > bottom
> > > or inside the case. Not every
> > > designer is as famous as Woz :)
> > >
> > > Steve.
> > >
> > >
> >
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Sep 26 16:35:23 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 14:35:23 -0700
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56070F9B.8040906@bitsavers.org>

On 9/26/15 1:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Sadly I don't even remember what software I used for OCR about 10 years ago, but I had something for Windows back then, which actually figured out fonts and all, and created a plain Word document from
> the OCR process.

Ain't gonna happen.

I have maybe a third of what I've scanned post-processed and uploaded.

I have more than all I've done in the queue still to scan. Boxes, and boxes
of it. Some in places where the owners REALLY want it gone.

I'm not going to put in the work required to
convert scans to text worth looking at.



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep 26 16:43:25 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:43:25 +0200
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56070F9B.8040906@bitsavers.org>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56070F9B.8040906@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5607117D.1090807@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-26 23:35, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/26/15 1:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> Sadly I don't even remember what software I used for OCR about 10
>> years ago, but I had something for Windows back then, which actually
>> figured out fonts and all, and created a plain Word document from
>> the OCR process.
>
> Ain't gonna happen.
>
> I have maybe a third of what I've scanned post-processed and uploaded.
>
> I have more than all I've done in the queue still to scan. Boxes, and boxes
> of it. Some in places where the owners REALLY want it gone.
>
> I'm not going to put in the work required to
> convert scans to text worth looking at.

Understandable. But you'll have to live with me wishing (and complaining 
from time to time).

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Sep 26 16:42:26 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:42:26 -0400
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>>
>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago that
>> I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on
>> bitsavers then.
>
> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would appear
> that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but then you
> have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
>
> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the experience
> just scrolling through them is pretty bad.

Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:

Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does 
not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't 
ruined by it.

Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this reason 
and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of course 
bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to supply OCR 
as well.)

--Toby

>
> Sadly I don't even remember what software I used for OCR about 10 years
> ago, but I had something for Windows back then, which actually figured
> out fonts and all, and created a plain Word document from the OCR
> process. That was a really nice piece of software, which preserved
> formatting, fonts and all. I have a short example of the results at
> http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/Clarkson.pdf, which was just a scan of two
> pages from a book. I created the pdf from Word.
> A process like that is what I'd like, except for figures, which needs to
> be kept as bitmaps, I suspect.
>
>      Johnny
>


From pete at pski.net  Sat Sep 26 16:44:28 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:44:28 -0400
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufhgxCTQ3AGDUiCVYpCJ5aKdjxSibwoZiCqRL7KuNQoNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfBonxPaxp0LUkymmGB0o+Uvy4pQBYHGbjivsTufain5qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBufhgxCTQ3AGDUiCVYpCJ5aKdjxSibwoZiCqRL7KuNQoNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <93BAD599-0363-440F-A813-0AD01202962F@pski.net>

Come on?it?s free shipping!

> On Sep 26, 2015, at 5:35 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Crap I paid $22,500 for mine.
> 
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On Sep 26, 2015 4:45 PM, "Jacob Ritorto" <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> the cluelessness of the descriptive text on that basic 4 ad.  hilarious.
>> 'there are only two mainframes i know of in existence.'
>> 
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Brian Walenz <thebri at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Don't forget about this one:
>>> 
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191698368565
>>> 
>>> $17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.  He's missing the
>>> box with the electronics, and, clearly, the cables...  At least it isn't
>>> signed!
>>> 
>>> b
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, <steven at malikoff.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Pocket change compared to what the seller wants for this Olivetti
>>>> Programma 101, priced to go!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olivetti-PROGRAMMA-101-signed-by-one-of-the-authors-PRE-ALTAIR-8800-AND-C4004-/271973010365
>>>> To me the signing on the top of the case sort of spoils the clean
>>>> appearance, I think if would have been better if it had been on the
>>> bottom
>>>> or inside the case. Not every
>>>> designer is as famous as Woz :)
>>>> 
>>>> Steve.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Sep 26 16:51:02 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:51:02 +0200
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-26 23:42, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>>>
>>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago that
>>> I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on
>>> bitsavers then.
>>
>> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would appear
>> that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but then you
>> have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
>>
>> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the experience
>> just scrolling through them is pretty bad.
>
> Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:
>
> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does
> not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't
> ruined by it.
>
> Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this reason
> and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of course
> bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to supply OCR
> as well.)

Look at the results in the link I posted. I was more than happy with 
that result.

But sure, for those who like bitmaps, I'm certainly not going to take 
them away. But for me, I'm actually interested in the content, and not 
the pixels.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From mark at markesystems.com  Sat Sep 26 17:36:09 2015
From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 15:36:09 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443286800.65261.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1443286800.65261.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <D5084CD366054E20BFDE944F8E67E54B@Daedalus>

>>> As I mentioned in another response, I truly dislike SQLite, based on my
>>> experience with it on my Garmin GPS.
>>
>> I'm still not sure why - my experience has been very good.  What bad
>> experiences have you had?
>> ~~
>> Mark Moulding
>>
>
> My Garmin has had data integrity issues in its database.  Plus, lack of
> *convenient* tools, and having to rummage around here and there to find
> them.
>
> On top of that, this will be part of an online web app some day, so
> having the database in the address space of the web server is probably
> not a Good Thing.

I haven't used SQLite in an embedded environment yet.  I wonder if it tends 
to thrash certain areas of the data file (which would cause flash wear 
problems).  I appreciate the data point...

And yes, SQLite was not intended for a high-volume multi-access environment, 
and my experience is definitely from embedded up through low multi-user 
local network applications.  I'm sure there are many good reasons why MySQL 
has become the standard for web server applications.  I originally 
understood - perhaps erroneously - that this was to be a smallish, local 
application, and for me (and the smallish types of systems I tend to build), 
I'd prefer to avoid the headache of administering the MySQL subsystem.

But I stand by my statements about the separate, non-editable keys... :-)
~~
Mark Moulding


From ethan at 757.org  Sat Sep 26 17:54:48 2015
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 18:54:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <003201d0f897$babfb360$303f1a20$@net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1509261017360.27808@vintagetech.com>
 <003201d0f897$babfb360$303f1a20$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509261852130.32673@users.757.org>

> VERY NICE. I wish home automation systems now a day were as easy and simple
> to use. I bet you this did not need "the cloud" so you could just set your
> temperature!
> -Ali

Look into AMX stuff. The parts are cheap on ebay. You have to write all 
the stuff yourself using their NetLinx programming language but it's cool 
stuff. So flexble.

  --
Ethan O'Toole


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Sep 26 20:13:39 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 18:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <D5084CD366054E20BFDE944F8E67E54B@Daedalus>
References: <mailman.1.1443286800.65261.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <D5084CD366054E20BFDE944F8E67E54B@Daedalus>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509261812430.10417@shell.lmi.net>

> My Garmin has had data integrity issues in its database.  Plus, lack of
> *convenient* tools, and having to rummage around here and there to find
> them.

Halfway across the Richmond-San Rafael bridge the Garmin siad to turn 
right.     Never trust the voices.




From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Sep 26 20:20:14 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 20:20:14 -0500
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509261812430.10417@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.1.1443286800.65261.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <D5084CD366054E20BFDE944F8E67E54B@Daedalus>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509261812430.10417@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20150927012014.GA28926@lonesome.com>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 06:13:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Halfway across the Richmond-San Rafael bridge the Garmin siad to turn right.

Maybe it was trying to save you from the perpetual American Election
Cycle? :-)

mcl

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 20:20:21 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 19:20:21 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <56057CBD.3080808@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <56057CBD.3080808@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSFee4VFndqdKDeR+B4gnjuvm_sJnAYTKUiow5Jo7JSrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> What I/O board are you trying to figure out, Eric?

Intel iSBC 215.  I have a G, but all variants have a similar processor
subsystem using the 8089.

I'd appreciate copies of the firmware for all Intel iSBC 215 variants.
I presently have one version for the 215G, EPROM part numbers
147931-001 and -002.  The 215G uses 2764 EPROMs; the 215A and 215B use
2732.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 20:21:56 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 19:21:56 -0600
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <BLU168-W107FDB8AF53D4FD0D654579A3420@phx.gbl>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <5604C360.1080801@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTT+p3SDv4Tcz5rFzhaY1L_Czb2_rCGc-t+e_a10KdG-9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5604DE99.6060807@sydex.com>
 <CAFrGgTT0go0NWxPVLwadbSczKpOpmSWV_OJgqPM+aOhvOsL5cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W107FDB8AF53D4FD0D654579A3420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSCMQg08W5Kji1feo2_oHkN70VP1yrD6iSFUTuHzon7iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:38 AM, dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Someplace in my piles of stuff, I may have an EPROM '89. At least I
> think it was an 89.
> If I find it, your welcome to it Eric.

Thanks, Dwight, but I don't think there was any EPROM version of the
8089, as they don't have internal program memory.

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Sep 26 20:35:04 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 20:35:04 -0500
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 03:59:39PM -0400, Brian Walenz wrote:
> $17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.

For some reason this got me looking at "mainframe" on eBay search.

Good lord.

I need to tell these children "if you could pick it up, it was not a
mainframe."

I'm sorry I looked ...

mcl

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Sep 26 20:41:52 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:41:52 -0400
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-26 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-26 23:42, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>>>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>>>>
>>>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago that
>>>> I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on
>>>> bitsavers then.
>>>
>>> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would appear
>>> that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but then you
>>> have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
>>>
>>> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the experience
>>> just scrolling through them is pretty bad.
>>
>> Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:
>>
>> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does
>> not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't
>> ruined by it.
>>
>> Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this reason
>> and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of course
>> bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to supply OCR
>> as well.)
>
> Look at the results in the link I posted. I was more than happy with
> that result.

I've seen plenty of technical books ruined by this technique, which is 
why I beg anyone doing this to not divorce the bitmaps from the OCR'd 
result.

I suppose some books might be relatively immune, but technical texts 
seem to be quite sensitive to poor interpretation by OCR, logically enough.

--Toby

>
> But sure, for those who like bitmaps, I'm certainly not going to take
> them away. But for me, I'm actually interested in the content, and not
> the pixels.
>
>      Johnny
>


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat Sep 26 21:07:16 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:07:16 -0500
Subject: Half an extra finger (DEC PDP-8/A G8018 regulator)
Message-ID: <98CE6479C1A54AB09BA22E75E383F53A@CharlesHPLaptop>

As I've periodically posted, my 8/A has an intermittent power supply problem 
(Power OK light and signal line flickers, so the entire system is confused. 
Throwing the DC breaker and resetting it will often make the problem go away 
for the rest of the evening). It's slowly getting worse, to the point where 
tonight the Power light wouldn't come on at all. It's not the breaker 
itself. So I decided to put the G8018 regulator assembly on the extender 
card.

However, when using the extender, the DC breaker would immediately trip! I 
tracked it down to the +5 volt crowbar being triggered. Careful examination 
of about four different schematic pages shows a connection on the backplane 
between edge connector pins BP2 & BR2 and the multiple +5 volt busses on 
edge conn C. If you look at the schematic, BR2 is a test point but BP2 goes 
to the anode end of the 5.7 volt zener that sets the crowbar voltage (its 
cathode is connected to +5) and through a 10 ohm resistor to the crowbar SCR 
gate with 100 ohms to ground.
This makes *no* sense because that connection shorts out the zener, so as 
soon as the +5 comes up, 100/110 of the +5 is applied to the SCR gate, so 
naturally it fires!

A close look at the G8018 provided the answer. There is half a finger etched 
on BP2 which is also fully connected to BR2. (See picture) Looks like a 
drafting mistake to me.
The Douglas extender board has sufficient depth in its female connectors 
that the partial finger of BP2 made contact and caused the crowbar to 
trigger as described. Cutting the "web" between the fingers fixed the 
problem.

Naturally the intermittent flicker is gone for now, and I doubt it was an 
"almost" connection to the SCR gate because once it fires, the +5 should 
drop to near zero and trip the breaker, which has not been the case (except 
with the extender card). But at least I have the regulator on the extender 
card so I can start measuring when it comes back!

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/DrCharlesMorris/media/PDP-8/P09-26-15_20.03_zps3dfh8m8t.jpg.html




From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 22:06:50 2015
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:06:50 -0400
Subject: assembler, disassembler for Intel 8089?
In-Reply-To: <359A04E7-D96B-41E6-A982-54E7610BD66A@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSRbAQYSMeCJzMzqETb0F+F4XeTx-9H=ZgKYZpLD-=XJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU168-W98F092394FBB2E82467A4BA3420@phx.gbl>
 <CAFrGgTTG+VY0vORu7A3C-LYtZ8gXZ5mt-Ym1doG-_6RNa-LkgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F37E52736B743E5A6CABB7F287C7BE8@310e2>
 <201509251318.JAA19261@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20150925184046.GA99386@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <359A04E7-D96B-41E6-A982-54E7610BD66A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23A7BE31-FFDB-4083-B606-1ADB9AA6316F@gmail.com>

Oops, not the MT-32, that uses the Intel MCS-96 family. Nearly too many chips here to keep track of!
Rather it's for the ACT Apricot PC/Xi seems to use an 8089 for I/O.

David

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 2:53 PM, David Ryskalczyk <d235j.1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> MAME has an emulator and a disassembler since the Roland MT-32 uses this chip.
> 
> David
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>> 
>> Mouse wrote:
>> 
>>>>> And I'd still have to write a disassembler.
>>> 
>>> If someone can point me at the assembly and machine language specs for
>>> the thing, I can add it to my disassembler....
>>> 
>>> /~\ The ASCII                  Mouse
>>> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>>> X  Against HTML        mouse at rodents-montreal.org
>>> / \ Email!         7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>> 
>> 
>> ...found this:
>> 
>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-000/Scans-0012901.pdf
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Holm
>> 
>> -- 
>>     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
>>    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> 


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat Sep 26 22:16:23 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 20:16:23 -0700
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <87CBF414-A677-42BB-AA3F-06D59DD5219C@nf6x.net>

I like the irony of a plastics company using a wooden computer, even if the asking price seems quite ambitious.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Sep 26 21:21:19 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 22:21:19 -0400
Subject: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <560613CF.6000108@compsys.to>
References: <20150925165709.B130F18C0DA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <56057D5F.7090604@bitsavers.org> <560613CF.6000108@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <5607529F.9090209@compsys.to>

 >Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> >Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> >On 9/25/15 9:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>>> If you whip up a list of what you've got, I'd be happy to check it 
>>> for you.
>>
>> You REALLY want to check what Alan Frisbie has done this past year 
>> before spending
>> a lot of time on this. I see in alt.sys.pdp11 that he just listed an 
>> RT 5.6 manual
>> set on eBay. It is highly unlikely he would be selling it if it 
>> hasn't already been
>> scanned. 
>
> For anyone who is interested, the V05.06  RT-11  DOC set
> is IDENTICAL to the V05.07  RT-11  DOC set EXCEPT
> for the Release Notes.
>
> As far as I know, ALL of those manuals have been scanned
> into PDF files and are available for download.  In practice,
> that means there are two Release Notes manuals, one for
> V05.06 of RT-11 and another for V05.07 of RT-11.  And
> there is a single manual for the rest of the RT-11  DOC set
> manuals for both V05.06 of RT-11 and V05.07 of RT-11
> since Mentec made no changes at all to any of the V05.06
> RT-11 DOC set manuals EXCEPT for the Release Notes.
>
> If anyone would appreciate a link to the PDF files for these
> manuals, please ask.  I don't have it handy at the moment.
> But it should not be difficult to find the link again.

After much searching, I finally found a link to the V05.06 manuals:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/

What I was surprised to learn is that there is even a Volume 0 manual:
AA-M214D-TC RT-11 Quick Reference Manual
is the manual which is placed into this volume.

Also the Release Notes manual PDF file and that link are:
AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf

However, I have NOT been able to locate is a PDF for the
V05.07 RT-11 Release Notes.  That front page has the following
information:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RT-11
System  Release  Notes

Order Number  AA-5286M-TC

October 1998

This manual contains the technical changes made to the RT-11 Operating
System since Version 5.6 and supplemental Notes from the Version 5.6 Release
Notes applicable to this version.


Revision/Update Information:  This revised manual amends RT-11 System
                                               Release Notes AA-5286L-TC

Operating System:                   RT-11 Version 5.7



Mentec
Computers & Communications



Number of Pages in each Section:

Pages i to ix
Pages 1-1 to 1-11
Pages 2-1 to 2-17
Pages 3-1 to 3-21
Pages 4-1 to 4-6
Pages A-1 to A-2
Pages B-1 to B-8
Pages C-1 to C-30
Pages D-1 to D-1
Pages E-1 to E-8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone knows if the V05.07 RT-11 Release Notes manual has been
scanned and the PDF made available on the internet, a link to that location
would be appreciated.

Jerome Fine


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 23:06:32 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:06:32 -0500
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <20150927040632.GG94586@gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 03:59:39PM -0400, Brian Walenz wrote:
> > $17k for a CRT and a keyboard in a (beat up) wood case.
> 
> For some reason this got me looking at "mainframe" on eBay search.
> 
> Good lord.
> 
> I need to tell these children "if you could pick it up, it was not a
> mainframe."
> 
> I'm sorry I looked ...

What? -- what's wrong with "Altair Era" "S-100 Mainframes"?

> 
> mcl

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Sep 26 23:13:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:13:32 -0700
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <20150927040632.GG94586@gmail.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com> <20150927040632.GG94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56076CEC.20805@sydex.com>

On 09/26/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
  I'm sorry I looked ...
>
> What? -- what's wrong with "Altair Era" "S-100 Mainframes"?

Didn't Intel call the IA432 a "micro mainframe"?

--Chuck


From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com  Sat Sep 26 15:34:23 2015
From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:34:23 -0400
Subject: DEC BA11K Fan repair
In-Reply-To: <5606F5C4.5000502@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNvWjE5nz31cArX4eDFF6-TpXY01a6FexsOVYmV5JRSzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5F8B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5606C3A6.6080709@pico-systems.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D5FFA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5606F5C4.5000502@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <3053A175-3D01-43C3-84CA-4F1DD1D11FE4@VMSSoftware.com>

I know a few folks that custom make parts and many are from DEC if anyone needs me to check just let me know.

Sue


> On Sep 26, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> On 09/26/2015 11:25 AM, tony duell wrote:
>>> 
>> I'll tell you one that you can't get -- the fan in the PDP11/44.
>> That one is a standard outer dimension alright, but electrically
>> it's plain odd. 35V 70Hz AC or something. It runs from a full-H
>> circuit from the (possibly battery packed) 36V supply. There have
>> been suggestions to kludge in 12V DC fans, but I would not do
>> that, the fan circuit _is_ part of the design of the PDP11/44 and
>> should be preserved.
> Oh, wow!  We had a 44 a LONG time ago, I never knew about that!
>> 
>> 
>> There is also the issue of keeping the machine as original as possible.
>> And the fact that a lot of the cheaper (i.e. $15) modern fans are very
>> poorly made. I think a rebuilt oriignal DEC fan would easily outlast one
>> of those.
>> 
>> 
> Well, fans come in many varieties.  There are Chinese knockoffs, and name-brand fans.  You can get plain sleeve bearings, "hydro-wave" bearings and ball bearings.  Good ball-bearing fans have a very long life, but may get a bit noisy near the end of their life.  These can also be re-bearing-ed quite easily, and it essentially makes them brand-new.  I've done this on my Dell desktop machines a few times. Yes, maybe the best fans do run over $15.
> 
> Jon

Sue Skonetski

VP of Customer Advocacy
Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com
Office: +1 (978) 451-0116
Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886







Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations




From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 00:30:46 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 00:30:46 -0500
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).

I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From cctalk at fahimi.net  Sun Sep 27 00:44:23 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 22:44:23 -0700
Subject: Cloud-cuckoo land
In-Reply-To: <56076CEC.20805@sydex.com>
References: <20150926123520.2784618C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <8077d802bed8a5841ddf518b882b485c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAPP7abGm7GJ3xgFQF0JfVetm4hGKbpOPw=v5EkAgmeXKhnGEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150927013504.GB28926@lonesome.com> <20150927040632.GG94586@gmail.com>
 <56076CEC.20805@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <004301d0f8e7$916bf690$b443e3b0$@net>

>   I'm sorry I looked ...
> >
> > What? -- what's wrong with "Altair Era" "S-100 Mainframes"?
> 

Looking through my old Bytes many manufacturers referred to their CPU housings as "mainframes". Whether correct or not the terms appears to have been used to identify CPU housings that could be picked up - although w/ an associated hernia or two.

-Ali


From salgernon at me.com  Sun Sep 27 01:00:51 2015
From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 23:00:51 -0700
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F0BCE28-7392-4368-9C30-C8D65C844D83@me.com>

Not sure if it's relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordMARC

My brother was one of the few engineers on this product, in Palo Alto. The software ran on dozens of different machines and architectures, using the most portable language of the day: Fortran 77.  I believe MARC was the umbrella name/company for a number of different products. 

He got me a summer job there - I had to print out the sources and then make copies for everyone. We also wired the offices with rs-232 runs to the PRIME lurking in the basement.  

Formative years...

Sent from my teeny little terminal. 

> On Sep 26, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Eric Christopherson <echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
>> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
>> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).
> 
> I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
> web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
> a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
> CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?
> 
> -- 
>        Eric Christopherson

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Sep 27 05:27:08 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:27:08 +0200
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
Message-ID: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>

Hi,
some people from the "Rechenwerk Halle"
(http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/digital-ag/projekte/andere/museum/)
..a bunch of people that is interested in historical computing got an
Robotron K1840 DEC 11/780 clone lately and they try to get it running
again. (freinds of mine).

Unfortunately a thing called SKR Busadapter (Massbuss adapter) and the
entire console computer are missing.

So far as I know is the main CPU 100% compatible to the DEC original
using an UNIBUS System, PCBs are exchangeable, but the Console Computer
is not.
In The K1840 this is a K1620 Computer, the CPU is build from 8 Bit NMOS
slices (U830) and ordinary EPROMs (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U830C)
using a mechanical different PCB System. The same system was used in the
K1630 PDP11-alike (see below) which had an MMU (K1620 has none).
The Main difference that's preventing unpatched OSes are the U834 Bus
interface ICs, that must be software configured before the devices can be
accessed from the QBUS-like System Bus. The U834 are containing the Bus
drivers and all needed registers for interrupt and DMA and the entire
address decoder logic needed for QBUS Systems which simplified the
interfaces somewhat.
Nevertheless of that progressive design, it was the worlds slowest PDP11..

In the K1840 ordinary TEAC FD55FV Floppies (2x) where used for the console
System to boot up the system.

So far so good (or bad).

There are a few things that I want to know now..

I know that in the original 11/780 the Console CPU was an 11/03
with some interface to load the VAX Microcode in to the main CPU.
Do you think it is possible to use an ordinary 11/23 instead?
What Floppy Controller was used in the original, I know that there was a
single 8" floppy drive in the 11/780 and don't think that the controller
was the usual RX01 or RX02 System...?

That's an article from the german magazine C't about the people which got
the K1840:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Rechnende-Schrankwand-Computermuseum-bewahrt-DDR-Technik-2824900.html

That's the K1840 on the left:
http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/digital-ag/log/K1840_im_Rechenwerk.jpg

and The K1630 .. PDP11 not so "clone" on the right.
I don't think that the Tape drive was shipped with that machine, the
bulgarian original looked different so far as I remember..

Is there someone that would help out them with missing hardware/software?

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep 27 07:17:48 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:17:48 +0200
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-27 03:41, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-09-26 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2015-09-26 23:42, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>>>>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>>>>>
>>>>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago
>>>>> that
>>>>> I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current versions on
>>>>> bitsavers then.
>>>>
>>>> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would appear
>>>> that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but then you
>>>> have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
>>>>
>>>> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the experience
>>>> just scrolling through them is pretty bad.
>>>
>>> Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:
>>>
>>> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does
>>> not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't
>>> ruined by it.
>>>
>>> Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this reason
>>> and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of course
>>> bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to supply OCR
>>> as well.)
>>
>> Look at the results in the link I posted. I was more than happy with
>> that result.
>
> I've seen plenty of technical books ruined by this technique, which is
> why I beg anyone doing this to not divorce the bitmaps from the OCR'd
> result.
>
> I suppose some books might be relatively immune, but technical texts
> seem to be quite sensitive to poor interpretation by OCR, logically enough.

I suppose it is the eternal argument between preservation and use. I use 
these documents every day. I don't care about the pixels, but the 
content. Museums and the like are obviously more interested in the 
preservation.

I get the feeling you didn't actually check the text that I OCRed from a 
book. That text is an example what I'm looking for.

I will not prevent people who want pixel preservation from continuing to 
have that. But for me, it is a problem. The experience in actually using 
these documents are pretty poor. And, as have also been noted, 
information have been lost in these scans, as they have not preserved 
color codings.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Sep 27 07:25:16 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 05:25:16 -0700
Subject: MARC
Message-ID: <5607E02C.6000507@bitsavers.org>



http://www.loc.gov/marc/


From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep 27 07:48:46 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 07:48:46 -0500
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <3F0BCE28-7392-4368-9C30-C8D65C844D83@me.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
 <3F0BCE28-7392-4368-9C30-C8D65C844D83@me.com>
Message-ID: <C3D9E85F-504C-45CF-AAD2-0BD52E552812@charter.net>

Not related at all, to my knowledge. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 27, 2015, at 01:00, Steve Algernon <salgernon at me.com> wrote:
> 
> Not sure if it's relevant:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordMARC
> 
> My brother was one of the few engineers on this product, in Palo Alto. The software ran on dozens of different machines and architectures, using the most portable language of the day: Fortran 77.  I believe MARC was the umbrella name/company for a number of different products. 
> 
> He got me a summer job there - I had to print out the sources and then make copies for everyone. We also wired the offices with rs-232 runs to the PRIME lurking in the basement.  
> 
> Formative years...
> 
> Sent from my teeny little terminal. 
> 
>>> On Sep 26, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Eric Christopherson <echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>>> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
>>> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
>>> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).
>> 
>> I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
>> web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
>> a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
>> CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?
>> 
>> -- 
>>       Eric Christopherson

From brad at heeltoe.com  Sun Sep 27 07:49:03 2015
From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 08:49:03 -0400
Subject: Acquiring a bunch of Lisp Machines
In-Reply-To: <5605F2C5.5020709@shiresoft.com>
References: <5605911A.30509@sydex.com>
 <1326680510.464907.1443213522242.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com>
 <BLU168-W955BE5C2A99ABABD84520DA3420@phx.gbl>
 <5605F2C5.5020709@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <5607E5BF.7000406@heeltoe.com>

On 9/25/15 9:20 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Some work has been done to build an emulator but it was based upon 
> trying to emulate the code
> that ran on the Alpha.  No one to my knowledge has created an emulator 
> for the 36xx series
> machines.
It's good to see that the MFM emulator worked on a 3640.  I bought one 
and planned to try that experiment
at some point.  The SCSI emulator (scsi2sd) works well on the scsi based 
xl1200's and I have cloned a few
disks.  I have a working 3640 with a booting MFM disk which I 
should/will clone once I find the pcb (which is currently hiding)

It's true about the disks - the bad block info - at least on the large 
SMD and RLL lists was written at the factory once and that was it.  But 
if you had a "perfect disk" (for example one that was emulated), you 
could recreate a FEP file structure from scratch and if you had a 
distribution tape you should be able to load the needed files onto it.  
I suspect you could do all of that "outboard", i.e. using a linux 
computer into a disk image.  The FEP file structure and LMFS file system 
are not that complex. And if you could take a MFM signal image and turn 
it back into 1280 byte blocks, then you'd have a good example to 
decompose and compare with (since that now exits).

Heck, worst case you could do it from the FEP itself - but I think you'd 
need a dc-300 drive emulator and a image of a distribution tape.  That 
should not be hard - the carts exists and I can't imagine a tape 
interface being that hard to emulate.

I think the MFM format, even with it's odd block size is known and 
reasonable;  But the FEP loading code is obscure. (I've never seen FEP 
source code despite searching for a long time) But the format of the 
disk is pretty well documented in the lisp code and is known.

I made a feeble attempt at a 3600 macro code interpreter at one point.  
More just for fun than anything else.  I based it on the microcode in 
the patent application but it only got so far.  I think documentation 
did exist, but I'm not sure it's ever seen the light of day.  I've never 
seen any.  The holy grail would be a source copy of the latest microcode 
with all the support files.  It has to be on a magtape somewhere in 
someone's basement...

There is documentation for later ivory based machines (xl1200, etc...); 
the macro code and other important information has surfaced and is 
available.  The emulator has gone through various incarnations and 
improvements but remains (sadly) private.  I heard the latest version 
was completely rewritten in modern C.

I still hope some day someone will cough up some tapes with internal 
files on the 3600.  It should be possible to make an emulator or at the 
very least run the microcode.  There are schematics on the web. I have 
(briefly) considered putting them in an FPGA but fortunately came to my 
senses.  I think if I had the FEP source code I'd get motivated again 
because I've yet to figure out the format of the microcode binaries 
(which would be essential if one wanted to actually run the 3600 
hardware engine in simulation).  It might be one of those "be careful 
what you wish for" statements :-)  I still remember Al sending me the 
binary images of the CADR boot proms.

I think that 3620 is VLSI based.  There have to CAD files somewhere 
which describe the logic.

-brad




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 08:38:27 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:38:27 +0100
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
> Billquist
> Sent: 27 September 2015 13:18
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding
> Manuals
> 
> On 2015-09-27 03:41, Toby Thain wrote:
> > On 2015-09-26 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >> On 2015-09-26 23:42, Toby Thain wrote:
> >>> On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >>>>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
> >>>>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
> >>>>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago
> >>>>> that I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current
> >>>>> versions on bitsavers then.
> >>>>
> >>>> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would
> >>>> appear that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but
> >>>> then you have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
> >>>>
> >>>> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the
> >>>> experience just scrolling through them is pretty bad.
> >>>
> >>> Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:
> >>>
> >>> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR
> >>> does not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book
> >>> that wasn't ruined by it.
> >>>
> >>> Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this
> >>> reason and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of
> >>> course bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to
> >>> supply OCR as well.)
> >>
> >> Look at the results in the link I posted. I was more than happy with
> >> that result.
> >
> > I've seen plenty of technical books ruined by this technique, which is
> > why I beg anyone doing this to not divorce the bitmaps from the OCR'd
> > result.
> >
> > I suppose some books might be relatively immune, but technical texts
> > seem to be quite sensitive to poor interpretation by OCR, logically enough.
> 
> I suppose it is the eternal argument between preservation and use. I use
> these documents every day. I don't care about the pixels, but the content.
> Museums and the like are obviously more interested in the preservation.
> 
> I get the feeling you didn't actually check the text that I OCRed from a book.
> That text is an example what I'm looking for.

I did. I found it hard to read as it has OCr'd with mixed typefaces. It is also only basically non-technical English. Try a couple of pages from any of the VM/370R6 manuals.
I have tried to OCR without the bit maps with little success. These are especially badly reproduced (originally not as scanned). I can read the text from the BitMaps and know its right.
One error in the OCR and I can be scratching my hed for ages. I also don't have problems reading them on a laprop...

> 
> I will not prevent people who want pixel preservation from continuing to
> have that. But for me, it is a problem. The experience in actually using these
> documents are pretty poor. And, as have also been noted, information have
> been lost in these scans, as they have not preserved color codings.
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep 27 09:08:07 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:08:07 +0200
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-27 15:38, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
>> Billquist
>> Sent: 27 September 2015 13:18
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Re: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding
>> Manuals
>>
>> On 2015-09-27 03:41, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-26 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-26 23:42, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-09-26 4:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-09-26 12:16, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2015-09-25 22:35, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have been going back and applying OCR to the ones on bitsavers.
>>>>>>>> Are there some in particular that you have a problem with?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aha. I wasn't aware of that. I've downloaded copies many years ago
>>>>>>> that I've been keeping locally. I'll check out the current
>>>>>>> versions on bitsavers then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Al, exactly how have they been OCRed? Looking at them, it would
>>>>>> appear that what you see is still the bitmaps of all the pages, but
>>>>>> then you have the basic text also available for selection/searching.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My issue with that is that the documents are huge, and the
>>>>>> experience just scrolling through them is pretty bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Imho, though I am sure I am not alone:
>>>>>
>>>>> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR
>>>>> does not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book
>>>>> that wasn't ruined by it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just worth mentioning for anyone who might be tempted - For this
>>>>> reason and others, the bitmaps must NEVER be discarded (Although of
>>>>> course bitmaps can be archived in a different file if people want to
>>>>> supply OCR as well.)
>>>>
>>>> Look at the results in the link I posted. I was more than happy with
>>>> that result.
>>>
>>> I've seen plenty of technical books ruined by this technique, which is
>>> why I beg anyone doing this to not divorce the bitmaps from the OCR'd
>>> result.
>>>
>>> I suppose some books might be relatively immune, but technical texts
>>> seem to be quite sensitive to poor interpretation by OCR, logically enough.
>>
>> I suppose it is the eternal argument between preservation and use. I use
>> these documents every day. I don't care about the pixels, but the content.
>> Museums and the like are obviously more interested in the preservation.
>>
>> I get the feeling you didn't actually check the text that I OCRed from a book.
>> That text is an example what I'm looking for.
>
> I did. I found it hard to read as it has OCr'd with mixed typefaces.

That's because it looked exactly that way in the original as well. Blame 
the author/typesetter.

> It is also only basically non-technical English. Try a couple of pages from any of the VM/370R6 manuals.

Like I said, I don't even remember what software I used. :-(
I got it with a scanner I bought in the 90s, and running on Windows ME. 
Otherwise I would love to apply it to something bigger/more technical.

> I have tried to OCR without the bit maps with little success. These are especially badly reproduced (originally not as scanned). I can read the text from the BitMaps and know its right.
> One error in the OCR and I can be scratching my hed for ages. I also don't have problems reading them on a laprop...

Errors are always bad. Agreed. That is not something we're discussing here.

I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when 
having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through them, 
it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a while for 
the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you sometimes hits 
with searching...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sun Sep 27 10:49:25 2015
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:49:25 +0100
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com> <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <56081005.6090905@ntlworld.com>

On 27/09/15 15:08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> Errors are always bad. Agreed. That is not something we're discussing 
> here.
>
> I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when 
> having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through them, 
> it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a while for 
> the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you sometimes 
> hits with searching...
>

I think we are discussing errors. I did try to OCR stuff when I first 
started scanning I didn't find anything
that could do an even marginally acceptable job. That's perhaps less of 
an issue for War and Peace but
pretty serious for a technical manual.

I understand that having multiple 100MiB+ documents open at once will be 
sluggish, certainly compared
to those same documents once they've been through OCR. However, if I 
scan something and make the
raw scan available, someone can OCR it later (and re-upload just the OCR 
version if they want). If I OCR
it and don't make the raw scan available then people are potentially 
stuck with whatever OCR could manage
in 2015 (or earlier) and future-you will rightly curse me ten years down 
the line (I'm assuming that OCR is
getting better with time, of course ....).

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun Sep 27 11:22:04 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:22:04 +0200
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
 <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com>
 <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 04:08:07PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when
> having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through
> them, it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a
> while for the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you
> sometimes hits with searching...
> 

It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that 
could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content 
only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.

Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it 
possible.

/P

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep 27 11:37:20 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:37:20 -0500
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56081B40.7070000@charter.net>

On 9/27/2015 12:30 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
>> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
>> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).
> 
> I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
> web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
> a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
> CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?
> 

I'm not surprised, as it was never available as a product.  I originally
inquired about it after an article about it in the BDS C User's Group
newsletter, and talked with Ed Ziemba, and he agreed to send me a copy
to play with / test.  I tested a few versions before Ed Ziemba's
passing, and did some work on programs like icheck/ncheck/dcheck.

It was an operating system, not a layer on top of CP/M, although it did
use the CP/M BIOS calling conventions for the I/O layer.  And, until you
got your own BIOS integrated into your copy of MARC, it could boot by
starting up a CP/M program on top of your existing BIOS, which was
termed a "parasitic boot".

I had a version of "ed" running on it, but the code was "tainted" as I
had access to a version done in PL/M that itself had ties to the
original Unix version, and had access to the Unix version code myself. I
also had a version of "make" than ran on it, that was not tainted.

(There is one article out there that supposes that MARC was doomed to
failure because the 8080 machine address was too small.  That is an
erroneous speculation from my perspective - given that programs like BDS
C, "ed" and "make" could run on it is pretty strong evidence to the
contrary).

Here is an article about the accident that pretty well sums things up:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pD0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT14&lpg=PT14&dq=marc+ed+ziemba&source=bl&ots=2kRendDrp1&sig=hilXBFd4S8tDb6Z9QFZMiNovLeo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIn8XJ_c2XyAIVQQaSCh2qnwr4#v=onepage&q=marc%20ed%20ziemba&f=false

(Sorry about the fragmented URL).

As the above InfoWorld article mentions, Lauren Weinstein did work on
MARC after Ed's passing, but owing to legal difficulties (and perhaps
technical ones, too, I suppose), it never made it to market.  I
corresponded with Lauren back in the 80's as well as more recently when
I contemplated providing a copy to Al Kossow and the CHM.  Lauren
advised me against doing so because of the aforementioned legal
difficulties.  Lauren and Leor Zolman would know much more about all of
this than I did/do, as I never saw the source code.

I do not believe that the copy I had had the CP/M emulation component
that allowed CP/M programs to run on it that is mentioned in the article
above - I "just" had the Unix style system calls.

JRJ

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 11:38:11 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:38:11 -0400
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
 <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com>
 <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se> <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufCks63=XToWsC8twNjDvMWTUL-9OE=RAFNkzfFF0LZRw@mail.gmail.com>

Easier said than done but a big data solution could be applied to ocr.
Eventually Google 's big data ocr tech will be made available open source
to read pdfs.  Until then high quality bitmaps are the logical way to scan,
if you ask me.  Eventually throw all docs into a big data lake and let them
churn in there until statistical ocr is applied, a superior approach vs
font pattern matching alone.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 27, 2015 12:22 PM, "Pontus Pihlgren" <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 04:08:07PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when
> > having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through
> > them, it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a
> > while for the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you
> > sometimes hits with searching...
> >
>
> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
>
> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
> possible.
>
> /P
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep 27 13:03:31 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:03:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
Message-ID: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Hey, everyone: those little glass capacitors (well, the casing is glass - I'm
not sure what's inside) that one often sees used as per-chip noise/spike
supression caps (often 0.01 uF or some such size) on 1970s/1980s vintage
boards: are those things polarized, or can I put them in either way around?

I tried looking online, but didn't get an answer I was fully acomfortable with
(some of the 'glass capacitor' listings I found seemed to apply to a different
kinda 'glass capacitor').

As always, thanks in advance for any help!

	Noel

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 27 13:05:50 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <3F0BCE28-7392-4368-9C30-C8D65C844D83@me.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
 <3F0BCE28-7392-4368-9C30-C8D65C844D83@me.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271055200.13377@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 26 Sep 2015, Steve Algernon wrote:
> Not sure if it's relevant:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordMARC
> My brother was one of the few engineers on this product, in Palo Alto. 
> The software ran on dozens of different machines and architectures, 
> using the most portable language of the day: Fortran 77.  I believe MARC 
> was the umbrella name/company for a number of different products.

OCLC and Library Of Congress are sure going to be surprised that their 
MAchine-Readable-Cataloging system is the umbrella name/company for a 
number of unrelated products!   Was Z39.50 similarly commercialized?


MARC can be very efficient or very bloated.  For example, if you allocate 
arrays for all fields, then a record can be up to 250K (think 8" SSSD). 
But, with even half-assed dynamic allocation to use the space needed, 
rather than the maximum that it could be, a very crude MARC record editor 
can be done on an Atari Portfolio.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Sep 27 13:07:49 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:07:49 -0400
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com> <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
 <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <56083075.1000504@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-27 12:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 04:08:07PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when
>> having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through
>> them, it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a
>> while for the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you
>> sometimes hits with searching...
>>
>
> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
>
> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
> possible.
>
> /P
>

Right, if the bitmaps aren't available, then it's not an acceptable archive.

Personally I never, ever, want to see the OCR'd version. But that may be 
coloured by a career as typographer and finished artist. No software can 
apply the judgment that humans did in the print edition; it's only more 
or less degrading steps from that point on.

And to be clear I'm not at loggerheads with Johnny because I am indeed 
talking about acceptable archiving practice, not some conversion of a 
particular text which might be useful for a particular person on a 
particular day.

--Toby

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 27 13:11:48 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:11:48 +0000
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D619E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> 
> Hey, everyone: those little glass capacitors (well, the casing is glass - I'm
> not sure what's inside) that one often sees used as per-chip noise/spike
> supression caps (often 0.01 uF or some such size) on 1970s/1980s vintage
> boards: are those things polarized, or can I put them in either way around?

I am pretty sure they are not polarised, you can fit them either way.

In general capacitors under 1uF are not polarised (I _have_ seen 0.22uF and 0.47uF
tanatulum electrolytics which are, of course, polarised, but they are uncommon). 
Anything over 100uF is very likely to be polarised. Between 1uF and 100uF they are 
likely to be polarised, but non-polarised ones of those values are not uncommon 
particularly not in audio applications (loudspeaker crossover networks, for example).

Incidentally, what are you using those capacitors for? Why not some other type? And
doesn't the supplier offer a data sheet?

-tony

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 13:26:20 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 13:26:20 -0500
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4pP2VMvabs=RPC5oy9FqAn7XANk9JYxXtRd6PJw4k3Rg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure what you're describing. Can you link to a pic of one of these
caps?

But in general, nothing lower than 1.0uF in value is likely to be
polarized, and any polarized cap will need to have a polarity marking for
at least one of the leads. Smallest polar cap I've ever seen was a 0.47uF
electrolytic.

You'll sometimes find a dot or band on a small non-polar cap, but that
typically indicates the 'outer' foil of the cap so that it can be installed
in the most efficient orientation (outer foil to ground, in an RF bypass,
etc).

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> Hey, everyone: those little glass capacitors (well, the casing is glass -
> I'm
> not sure what's inside) that one often sees used as per-chip noise/spike
> supression caps (often 0.01 uF or some such size) on 1970s/1980s vintage
> boards: are those things polarized, or can I put them in either way around?
>
> I tried looking online, but didn't get an answer I was fully acomfortable
> with
> (some of the 'glass capacitor' listings I found seemed to apply to a
> different
> kinda 'glass capacitor').
>
> As always, thanks in advance for any help!
>
>         Noel
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 27 13:33:19 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com> <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
 <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271123510.13377@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
> possible.

I haven't seen one.


I did start trying to write an heuristic probabilistic OCR one 25 years 
ago.  The idea being to overlay the OCR'd (displayed with matching fonts) 
over the scanned content.  Besides visual confirmation and indication of 
probability of accuracy with each character, it lends itself well to 
hiring neighborhood kids to type in just the "wrong" characters to clean 
up the OCR'd file, and heuristically tune the font database, including 
adding new fonts - EVERY character is "wrong" until it repeats a few times 
in the document.  ("clean up" a NYT article, and the OCR now has their 
font).



From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 08:56:48 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 09:56:48 -0400
Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=82oPgzpMcs3NaFqJbSJGjytvN6k23=jF=A-UPBM3mb3w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > I put a few pictures up here:
> >
> > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dps6/
> >
> > Nice bitslice processor in there, an Ethernet controller, some memory
> > (looks like 2MB) and as for the other boards, I'm not yet sure...)
> >
> > - Josh
>

The RICM had two DPS-6 systems.
http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/honeywell-dps-6
http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/honeywellultimate-level-6
The second one is from the Ultimate Corporation, has a Pick processor (or
microcode) and runs the Pick OS.

In a prior life I managed the GCOS OS and communications on a Honeywell
6000. The first year I worked there we swapped the core for MOS memory,
swapped the 120MB Ampex disks for 240MB MPI disks, swapped the Datanet 355
front-end and two 716 front-ends for two DPS-6 front-ends, and shrunk the
size of the system by 30%. If I remember correctly, DPS-6 front-ends used
the memory parity bits to make 18-bit memory, half of the 36-bit 6000
memory. We added a second I/O multiplexer, second CPU, more tapes, and more
disks when it was upgraded to a Level-66. This was something like upgrading
the architecture from NSA to NSB? We added a Honeywell Page Printer System.
This was a really fast (for its time) printer that could perforate, hole
punch, and collate the pages. I remember something about renaming the
system to a DPS-8/70, but that was more marketing than technology.
Eventually it was all replaced by a bunch of Tandem Non-Stop systems in a
distributed network.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep 27 14:05:13 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:05:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
Message-ID: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: drlegendre

    > I'm not sure what you're describing. Can you link to a pic of one of
    > these caps?

http://www.electrical4u.com/images/glass-capacitor.jpg


    > From: tony duell

    > Incidentally, what are you using those capacitors for?

I'm taking a half-filled QBUS memory card and filling it.

    > Why not some other type?

Because on that board, they fitted _underneath_ the DIP sockets,
and nothing else will fit down there!

    > I am pretty sure they are not polarised, you can fit them either way.
    > In general capacitors under 1uF are not polarised
    > ...
    > Anything over 100uF is very likely to be polarised.

Thanks, help much appreciated!

	Noel

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 27 14:06:00 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:06:00 +0000
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D61C7@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
>     > I'm not sure what you're describing. Can you link to a pic of one of
>     > these caps?
> 
> http://www.electrical4u.com/images/glass-capacitor.jpg

Those are not polarised.

>     > Why not some other type?
> 
> Because on that board, they fitted _underneath_ the DIP sockets,
> and nothing else will fit down there!

I've used some resin-cased axial lead ceramic capacitors which are 
about the same size and which I would be very surprised if they 
wouldn't fit.

Incidentlly, if you are fitting IC sockets do fit the turned pin (machined
pin) ones. They cost a bit more now, but will save you endless headaches
from bad contacts in the future.

-tony

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Sep 27 14:09:29 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:09:29 -0700
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
Message-ID: <ebotnkdw7gxcinwf8cwcixwd.1443380969393@email.android.com>


    
We keep the graphics files as archive and to print from f o r displays. ... to read and search the pdf with inlaid ocr is ? reference. ? Ed# www.smecc.org


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> 
Date: 09/27/2015  11:07 AM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals 

On 2015-09-27 12:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 04:08:07PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>> I don't have problems reading the current scans, as such. But when
>> having ten of these open at the same time, and scrolling through
>> them, it becomes obvious that the bitmaps are heavy. It can take a
>> while for the screen to be updated. Not to mention the problems you
>> sometimes hits with searching...
>>
>
> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
>
> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
> possible.
>
> /P
>

Right, if the bitmaps aren't available, then it's not an acceptable archive.

Personally I never, ever, want to see the OCR'd version. But that may be 
coloured by a career as typographer and finished artist. No software can 
apply the judgment that humans did in the print edition; it's only more 
or less degrading steps from that point on.

And to be clear I'm not at loggerheads with Johnny because I am indeed 
talking about acceptable archiving practice, not some conversion of a 
particular text which might be useful for a particular person on a 
particular day.

--Toby

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun Sep 27 14:12:54 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:12:54 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWkgtcQ+HYW0QmBAHbbOkhOLMxoYQO=KBHiKQi--kmdoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150925154710.GB11319@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkWkgtcQ+HYW0QmBAHbbOkhOLMxoYQO=KBHiKQi--kmdoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150927191254.GA20429@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

My regular shipper didn't accept a packag that weighed over 70 kg and I 
had trouble to, easily, find another shipper.

But, if I "lied" and put the package withing limits, the cost would run 
in excess of 450 dollars.

So.. perhaps not worth it.

Regards,
Pontus.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 12:08:48PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> Hi Pontus,
> 
> I'm in Ypsilanti, MI 48198 if you want to use that as a data point ... I
> suppose I'd be curious, too (although certainly out of my budget).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> 
> > Out of curiousity, what is your post area code, I'm curious what
> > shipping would amount to.
> >
> > /P
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:18:22AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> > > Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted to
> > > make an offer on one of they were in the US...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:
> > > >
> > > > * AlphaServer 2100 5/300
> > > >   - Untested by me, good physical appearance.
> > > >
> > > > * DEC AXP 4000
> > > >   - Was running when I picked it up.
> > > >     http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg
> > > >
> > > > I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Pontus.
> > > >
> >

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun Sep 27 14:12:54 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:12:54 +0200
Subject: Big Alphas available
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWkgtcQ+HYW0QmBAHbbOkhOLMxoYQO=KBHiKQi--kmdoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150925070204.GC29865@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkX7gdVancx3KkEgDEf09PxHyD8GgjRMYFZ48h=Gqr0xsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150925154710.GB11319@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAA43vkWkgtcQ+HYW0QmBAHbbOkhOLMxoYQO=KBHiKQi--kmdoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150927191254.GA20429@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

My regular shipper didn't accept a packag that weighed over 70 kg and I 
had trouble to, easily, find another shipper.

But, if I "lied" and put the package withing limits, the cost would run 
in excess of 450 dollars.

So.. perhaps not worth it.

Regards,
Pontus.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 12:08:48PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> Hi Pontus,
> 
> I'm in Ypsilanti, MI 48198 if you want to use that as a data point ... I
> suppose I'd be curious, too (although certainly out of my budget).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> 
> > Out of curiousity, what is your post area code, I'm curious what
> > shipping would amount to.
> >
> > /P
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:18:22AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote:
> > > Very nice looking set of DEC 4000 machines! I'd definitely be tempted to
> > > make an offer on one of they were in the US...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I need to make room for new goodies. So I'm offering two Alphas:
> > > >
> > > > * AlphaServer 2100 5/300
> > > >   - Untested by me, good physical appearance.
> > > >
> > > > * DEC AXP 4000
> > > >   - Was running when I picked it up.
> > > >     http://www.pdp8.se/bild/sthlm_haul/axps.jpg
> > > >
> > > > I can ship them, the probably need to go on a pallet.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Pontus.
> > > >
> >

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Sep 27 14:15:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:15:20 -0700
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <56084048.2090307@sydex.com>

On 09/27/2015 11:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Hey, everyone: those little glass capacitors (well, the casing is
> glass - I'm not sure what's inside) that one often sees used as
> per-chip noise/spike supression caps (often 0.01 uF or some such
> size) on 1970s/1980s vintage boards: are those things polarized, or
> can I put them in either way around?

Are you certain that the encapsulation is glass and not resin?  I've got 
a tub full of those paper-and-oil caps encapsulated in clear (like 
water) resin, ranging in value from 100 pf to about 2.2 uF.

I know that some old Sprague "Vitamin Q" steel-jacketed caps were sealed 
with what looks like glass, but again, I suspect that it's just resin. 
(BTW, when those things go, it's explosive with the added shrapnel of 
the jacket.  Nasty).

--Chuck


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sun Sep 27 14:39:29 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:39:29 -0500
Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides
Message-ID: <AC541E4E85EC48E992041ADA8F50F2D7@CharlesHPLaptop>

I just acquired an RX01 drive (and an RX8E) for my 8/A system. It wasn't too 
painful to get it going, as the RX8E had "only" one bad IC that was easy to 
find and I had a spare. Details on the DEC forum at vintage-computer.com. 
Then the RX01 started audibly working, but with new-old-stock 3M diskettes, 
showed 22 seek errors on the first pass to Drive 0, finding good headers 
with correct CRC but the wrong ones a track or two away. That cleared up 
promptly and 25 successive passes had no errors on either drive. So now I 
have two floppies with 487 free blocks each, built in OS/8 ;)

However, the drive came only with the inner slides (that attach to the 
chassis), but not the outer rails that bolt to the rack.
So I'm looking for either a complete pair of RX slides, or just the outer 
ones that I need. If they can't be had, I may have to find a heavy-duty rack 
shelf and set the drive on it. That would be inconvenient to service the 
drive but it should not need attention often.

Can anyone help me find some? Thanks.
-Charles


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Sep 27 14:44:56 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:44:56 -0500
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <56084738.4020103@pico-systems.com>

On 09/27/2015 02:05 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: drlegendre
>
>      > I'm not sure what you're describing. Can you link to a pic of one of
>      > these caps?
>
> http://www.electrical4u.com/images/glass-capacitor.jpg
>
>
>
Yup, that's a glass-encapsulated multi-layer ceramic cap, 
0.1 uF value.  It is definitely non-polarized.
I did see these at one time, I think they were to make the 
ceramic caps more durable.  They are basically the same as 
an SMT multilayer ceramic that would be used today, but in 
an axial lead format.

Jon

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 14:54:51 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:54:51 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
Message-ID: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!

I have started to work slowly with the PDP-11/05 I received a year ago. It
is the big BA11-D chassis type machine. The power supply is now fixed and
working fine. A few smaller capacitors were leaking. But also one of the
big input filtering capacitors was bad and had to be replaced.

The front panel have been cleaned and checked. The next step is to start
looking into the the CPU itself. Unfortunately one of the CPU boards are
marked "faulty" so there are certainly work to be done.

The plan is to get it to work with the 8kW core memory, M7800 connected to
a good old teletype and PC05 paper-tape reader / punch and then run paper
tape BASIC on it or other paper tape software.

The problem is that I am lacking in the M7810 board. Since I do have a M105
and M7821 a M781 could do as well.

Does anyone has a M7810 or M781 to sell?

http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-05

BTW. Does anyone have a BA11-D chassis and could help me take a photo of
the top and bottom covers? Those are missing on my machine and it seems
impossible find a drawing for the BA11-D chassis itself. It is not in the
PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings which I already have.

And if someone also have a G231 I would be interested because that would
mean that the machine can be fully configured with 16 kWords!

/Mattis

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 27 14:56:13 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:13 +0000
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> The plan is to get it to work with the 8kW core memory, M7800 connected to
> a good old teletype and PC05 paper-tape reader / punch and then run paper
> tape BASIC on it or other paper tape software.


> The problem is that I am lacking in the M7810 board. Since I do have a M105
> and M7821 a M781 could do as well.

Why do you need a second serial port? The PDP11/05 CPU board set has a built-in
UART set to the console port address. In general it was set to be 110 baud, and 
has a current loop interface, but that's just what you need for a teletype.

-tony

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Sep 27 15:14:43 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:14:43 -0400
Subject: Risks of DJVU/lossy compression - Re: If you OCR, always archive
 the bitmaps too
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271123510.13377@shell.lmi.net>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com> <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
 <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271123510.13377@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <56084E32.6070302@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-27 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
>> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
>> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
>> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
>> possible.
>
> I haven't seen one.
>
>
> I did start trying to write an heuristic probabilistic OCR one 25 years
> ago.  The idea being to overlay the OCR'd (displayed with matching
> fonts) over the scanned content.  Besides visual confirmation and
> indication of probability of accuracy with each character, it lends
> itself well to hiring neighborhood kids to type in just the "wrong"
> characters to clean up the OCR'd file, and heuristically tune the font
> database, including adding new fonts - EVERY character is "wrong" until
> it repeats a few times in the document.  ("clean up" a NYT article, and
> the OCR now has their font).
>
>
>

DJVU compression is somewhat analogous to this process, because, 
font-like, it builds a set of master glyphs then uses them as a 
compression dictionary (if everyone will forgive my simplistic 
explanation). Being lossy, like OCR, it inherently adds the risk of 
picking the wrong (but visually almost indistinguishable) glyph -- the 
WORST kind of typo for being so insidious.

There was a somewhat scary case study on the web a few years ago (not 
sure if it's still out there, haven't been able to find it) where the 
DJVU compression in a Xerox copier was quietly changing digits on 
scanned schematics to different digits. Close enough for DJVU -- but 
wrong. The risks are obvious(*).

--Toby


* - Hat tip to PGN. comp.risks digest.

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Sep 27 15:16:57 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:16:57 -0400
Subject: Risks of DJVU/lossy compression - Re: If you OCR, always archive
 the bitmaps too
In-Reply-To: <56084E32.6070302@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au> <56071346.50505@update.uu.se>
 <56074960.2050704@telegraphics.com.au> <5607DE6C.6020102@update.uu.se>
 <006d01d0f929$ca6b9d50$5f42d7f0$@gmail.com> <5607F847.70608@update.uu.se>
 <20150927162204.GA18000@Update.UU.SE>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271123510.13377@shell.lmi.net>
 <56084E32.6070302@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <56084EB9.5010709@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-09-27 4:14 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2015-09-27 2:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>>> It seems to me that a better tool could solve the issue. One that
>>> could display the OCR:ed content only and the scanned content
>>> only when desired, for instance when you suspect an error.
>>> Is there such a reader? Is the content organised to make it
>>> possible.
>>
>> I haven't seen one.
>>
>>
>> I did start trying to write an heuristic probabilistic OCR one 25 years
>> ago.  The idea being to overlay the OCR'd (displayed with matching
>> fonts) over the scanned content. ...
>>
>>
>>
>
> DJVU compression is somewhat analogous to this process, ...
>
> There was a somewhat scary case study on the web a few years ago (not
> sure if it's still out there, haven't been able to find it)

Here it is.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6156238

The compression method was apparently JBIG2, but it could also affect DJVU.

--Toby

> ... The risks are obvious(*).
>
> --Toby
>
>
> * - Hat tip to PGN. comp.risks digest.
>


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 15:25:29 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 22:25:29 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CABr82SK0bCCQ1hJpXahaqeyzUjeFTifsMfWkX4SCyo8ub=qeLA@mail.gmail.com>

s?ndag 27 september 2015 skrev tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>:

> >
> > The plan is to get it to work with the 8kW core memory, M7800 connected
> to
> > a good old teletype and PC05 paper-tape reader / punch and then run paper
> > tape BASIC on it or other paper tape software.
>
>
> > The problem is that I am lacking in the M7810 board. Since I do have a
> M105
> > and M7821 a M781 could do as well.
>
> Why do you need a second serial port? The PDP11/05 CPU board set has a
> built-in
> UART set to the console port address. In general it was set to be 110
> baud, and
> has a current loop interface, but that's just what you need for a teletype


You're right of course.  Unlike the others I've worked with (11/04, 11/34,
11/03 and 11/23) this one  include a serial port. Hasn't worked with CPU
boards yet so I forgot the built-in serial port.

BTW. I do have omnibus, unibus and qbus stuff to trade with if there is
interest.

/Mattis


> -tony
>

From js at cimmeri.com  Sun Sep 27 15:37:51 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:37:51 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5608539F.207@cimmeri.com>



On 9/27/2015 2:56 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> The plan is to get it to work with the 8kW core memory, M7800 connected to
>> a good old teletype and PC05 paper-tape reader / punch and then run paper
>> tape BASIC on it or other paper tape software.
>
>> The problem is that I am lacking in the M7810 board. Since I do have a M105
>> and M7821 a M781 could do as well.
> Why do you need a second serial port? The PDP11/05 CPU board set has a built-in
> UART set to the console port address. In general it was set to be 110 baud, and
> has a current loop interface, but that's just what you need for a teletype.
>
> -tony


Curious: what if the built in one were 
faulty, or if you wanted to use rs-232 
instead of current loop?

- John



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 27 15:47:21 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:47:21 +0000
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <5608539F.207@cimmeri.com>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5608539F.207@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D626E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

[Second serial port on a PDP11/05]

> Curious: what if the built in one were
> faulty, or if you wanted to use rs-232
> instead of current loop?

IIRC the 11/05S has a way to disable the built-in
console port (fit a wire link on one of the boards?)
the original 11/05 doesn't. There must be a way to do
it by cutting/jumpering but it is a mess....

Therefore, if the built-in port is faulty it is going to be
a lot less work to fix it than to disable it and add a DL11
Heck, the entire 11/05 CPU is only a couple of hundred ICs,
the serial port is going to be a small fraction of those. It is
not going to be hard to figure out.

As for the physical interface, firstly the OP mentioned a 
teletype, which to me suggests current loop anyway. If
you need RS232 then either pick up TTL level signals on 
the CPU board and add level shifters (very easy, but 
makes the machine not original) or make a current loop
to RS232 interface (not exactly difficult either). I think
both are less work than disabling the built-in port.

-tony



- John



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Sep 27 16:33:46 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 17:33:46 -0400
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <F4C0886A-3509-4174-9AAA-B699190F5BC8@comcast.net>


> On Sep 26, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> ...
> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't ruined by it.


True.  But that's not the biggest problem with OCR.  The biggest problem is that even professional grade OCR programs have rather low accuracy.  Maybe they do acceptably well on really high grade scans of very clean new documents, but on books, typewritten documents, etc., even after you use the "train" feature you need to spend a long time cleaning up.  It may be faster than retyping things, if you're lucky.  Not if you're not; two of us recently retyped 300 pages of line printer listing because that was faster and more accurate than OCR on that particular printout.

Given that OCR can only do, at best, a just barely acceptable recognition of the letters of the alphabet, it follows that accurately recognizing the actual font used will be vastly less accurate.  And indeed you can see that clearly.

I wonder if there are OCR programs that can be told to choose among 2 or 3 fonts, as opposed to guess from the entire inventory of the machine.  If so, and if they are sufficiently distinct, then maybe you'd stand a chance.  Especially if it also added heuristics like "never change fonts in mid-word" -- an obvious rule but not one I have seen implemented.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Sep 27 16:38:02 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 17:38:02 -0400
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927180331.24B1A18C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <27E49ECE-D04B-4B2F-BFD4-86496D49E514@comcast.net>


> On Sep 27, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hey, everyone: those little glass capacitors (well, the casing is glass - I'm
> not sure what's inside) that one often sees used as per-chip noise/spike
> supression caps (often 0.01 uF or some such size) on 1970s/1980s vintage
> boards: are those things polarized, or can I put them in either way around?

Glass?  Do you mean ceramic?

The only polarized capacitors in the sense that they suffer damage if installed backwards are the various flavors of electrolytics.

There are a few other capacitor types that come with a recommended installation direction; paper-insulated wound foil ones are a classic example.  But that's because the way they are constructed means that one plate ends up being the outer layer of the assembly, which means that's the side that should be grounded for best noise reduction in bypass applications.  That's a functional difference, not a reliability issue.  Another example are the classic tubular ceramic capacitors I remember seeing in Europe (but not in the USA) for the same reason.

Anything with flat layers, like mica, ceramic disk, or surface mount ceramics, isn't going to care at all about polarization for either of these reasons.

	paul



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Sep 27 16:48:06 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:48:06 +0200
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <F4C0886A-3509-4174-9AAA-B699190F5BC8@comcast.net>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org> <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org> <56040498.9050705@compsys.to>
 <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org> <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
 <F4C0886A-3509-4174-9AAA-B699190F5BC8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56086416.6080603@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-27 23:33, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Sep 26, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> ...
>> Software which "recreates" the typography of a document from OCR does not produce an acceptable substitute, I've yet to see a book that wasn't ruined by it.
>
>
> True.  But that's not the biggest problem with OCR.  The biggest problem is that even professional grade OCR programs have rather low accuracy.  Maybe they do acceptably well on really high grade scans of very clean new documents, but on books, typewritten documents, etc., even after you use the "train" feature you need to spend a long time cleaning up.  It may be faster than retyping things, if you're lucky.  Not if you're not; two of us recently retyped 300 pages of line printer listing because that was faster and more accurate than OCR on that particular printout.

Well, all I can say is that the OCRing I did of the book I posted a link 
to required some minor cleanup, but it was very light. So the accuracy 
was very good there.

> Given that OCR can only do, at best, a just barely acceptable recognition of the letters of the alphabet, it follows that accurately recognizing the actual font used will be vastly less accurate.  And indeed you can see that clearly.

The program I used back then obviously correctly picked not just the 
letters, but also which font to use very accurately.

> I wonder if there are OCR programs that can be told to choose among 2 or 3 fonts, as opposed to guess from the entire inventory of the machine.  If so, and if they are sufficiently distinct, then maybe you'd stand a chance.  Especially if it also added heuristics like "never change fonts in mid-word" -- an obvious rule but not one I have seen implemented.

That would be possible, I guess. But I would so like to remember, refind 
what I used back then. The results it produced was pretty much identical 
to the original. Manuals, in comparison, would be pretty straight 
forward. (Less fonts, and less strange layouts than books, in my eye. 
Figures still needs to be bitmaps, though.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Sun Sep 27 16:14:33 2015
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:14:33 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
Message-ID: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>

Hi,

I just finished a virtual PDP-11/70 panel for SimH.
As always it's a BlinkenBone application; description and download is here:
http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh

After the PDP-11/40 and the PDP-10 KI10, this is the 3rd panel connected 
to SimH in
a both a physical and a simulated version.

I'll show this simulation, the physical PDP-11/70 panel and some more 
panels on VCFB in Berlin,
october 3rd and 4th. http://www.vcfb.de/2015/index.html.en

Have fun!
Joerg


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Sep 27 17:27:50 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: If you OCR, always archive the bitmaps too - Re: Regarding Manuals
In-Reply-To: <56086416.6080603@update.uu.se>
References: <20150924094135.GB32087@Update.UU.SE>
 <5603EE2A.8020308@bitsavers.org>
 <20150924125315.GC9183@Update.UU.SE> <5603FEE6.5040504@bitsavers.org>
 <56040498.9050705@compsys.to> <5604736C.60002@bitsavers.org>
 <56047547.4020604@update.uu.se>
 <9EA8C57E-3F3D-417F-9DDC-ABB28CAAA933@comcast.net>
 <56058D3F.2060206@update.uu.se> <5605B01F.9020809@bitsavers.org>
 <5606708F.9050304@update.uu.se> <5606FFD9.1020709@update.uu.se>
 <56071142.5030806@telegraphics.com.au>
 <F4C0886A-3509-4174-9AAA-B699190F5BC8@comcast.net>
 <56086416.6080603@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509271459550.13377@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> That would be possible, I guess. But I would so like to remember, refind what 
> I used back then. The results it produced was pretty much identical to the 
> original. Manuals, in comparison, would be pretty straight forward. (Less 
> fonts, and less strange layouts than books, in my eye. Figures still needs to 
> be bitmaps, though.)

While I have no way of knowing what you were using back in the day, 
something else to keep in mind about books of text V manuals, . . .
with a book of text, there is significantly more context for every item. 
As a trivial example, in English language text, a 'Q' is virtually never 
followed by anything other than 'u', space, or punctuation.  Therefore, if 
there is a letter following a 'Q', it can be assumed to be 'u' unless 
proven otherwise.  Not so for part numbers, variable names, etc.  Applying 
"spell-checking" to a document gives a very high initial set of 
probabilities for letters that might otherwise be unclear.  If a given 
font has a very stylistic 'e', then its likelihood can be checked just 
with letter frequency, and if extremely common and surrounded by other 
letters, it is quite unlikely to be a slashed '0'.   In general, '0', 'O', 
'1', 'l', 'I' can generally be differentiated by context, such as whether 
surrounded by numbers or letters, but NOT as reliably based on shape, or 
even pixel matching.

Therefore, some OCR programs that make use of some of those kinds of 
techniques might do great on text, but be bordering on unusable for tech 
documents.


My idea was to make human assisted OCR, by displaying the OCR in progress, 
with color coding of characters based on their probability of accuracy. 
Then, cheap labor could manually enter characters, starting with those 
that had lowest probability of accuracy.  Minor heuristic algorithms could 
then use the incoming data of additional character/pixel pattern pairs to 
improve the guesses of subsequent characters.  The cumulative data pairs 
would learn additional fonts.

The cheap labor could be neighborhood kids, off-shore out-sourcing, or 
even grad students, depending on how much you care about their quality of 
life and cost of living.  For premium quality, use workers who even have 
some knowledge of the material.

BUT, one must never pick a worker who was brought up to interchange '0' 
and 'O', '1' and 'l', etc.  (Remember when some typewriters didn't HAVE 
both characters?)


From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Sun Sep 27 17:17:47 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:17:47 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <000FBEC74DC64CA199F65C0E6DE08D70@Vincew7>

From: J?rg Hoppe: Sunday, September 27, 2015 2:14 PM
> I just finished a virtual PDP-11/70 panel for SimH.

Nice!

I think Henk did one a few years back, though:
http://www.pdp-11.nl/
then clicking "my projects"->"PDP-11/70 console" shows
http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html

    Vince 


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 19:07:21 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:07:21 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D626E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D6239@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5608539F.207@cimmeri.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027D626E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucBJSy9JgMDgO=GmAf8yLNixgcjN_G_J_g2=WE=M2DAjg@mail.gmail.com>

I have been through the ground up restoration of a full chassis version,
make sure the CPU is functioning correctly first. The best place to start:

http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html

Try toggling in the  "Line Time Clock Interrupt Test" from 001000, returned
the expected value of 000104.

Here is a pdf of the cabling for tty console, if you have no current loop
device an rs232 converter will work.
http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/M9970_TTY.pdf

See also
http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/boards/m7260.html

echo characters toggle-in program
005000 CLR R0

105737 TSTB @#177560
177560
100375 BPL -3

105737 TSTB @#177564
177564
100375 BPL -3

113737 MOVB @#177562,@#177566
177562
177566

105737 TSTB @#177564
177564
100375 BPL -3

110037 MOVB R0,@#177566
177566

105737 TSTB @#177564
177564
100375 BPL -3

000756 BR -16





On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 4:47 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> [Second serial port on a PDP11/05]
>
> > Curious: what if the built in one were
> > faulty, or if you wanted to use rs-232
> > instead of current loop?
>
> IIRC the 11/05S has a way to disable the built-in
> console port (fit a wire link on one of the boards?)
> the original 11/05 doesn't. There must be a way to do
> it by cutting/jumpering but it is a mess....
>
> Therefore, if the built-in port is faulty it is going to be
> a lot less work to fix it than to disable it and add a DL11
> Heck, the entire 11/05 CPU is only a couple of hundred ICs,
> the serial port is going to be a small fraction of those. It is
> not going to be hard to figure out.
>
> As for the physical interface, firstly the OP mentioned a
> teletype, which to me suggests current loop anyway. If
> you need RS232 then either pick up TTL level signals on
> the CPU board and add level shifters (very easy, but
> makes the machine not original) or make a current loop
> to RS232 interface (not exactly difficult either). I think
> both are less work than disabling the built-in port.
>
> -tony
>
>
>
> - John
>
>
>


-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 19:30:07 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:30:07 -0500
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <56081B40.7070000@charter.net>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
 <56081B40.7070000@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20150928003007.GJ94586@gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> On 9/27/2015 12:30 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> >> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
> >> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
> >> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).
> > 
> > I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
> > web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
> > a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
> > CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?
> > 
> 
> I'm not surprised, as it was never available as a product.  I originally
> inquired about it after an article about it in the BDS C User's Group
> newsletter, and talked with Ed Ziemba, and he agreed to send me a copy
> to play with / test.  I tested a few versions before Ed Ziemba's
> passing, and did some work on programs like icheck/ncheck/dcheck.
> 
> It was an operating system, not a layer on top of CP/M, although it did
> use the CP/M BIOS calling conventions for the I/O layer.  And, until you
> got your own BIOS integrated into your copy of MARC, it could boot by
> starting up a CP/M program on top of your existing BIOS, which was
> termed a "parasitic boot".

Did it have multitasking?

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From dave at 661.org  Sun Sep 27 20:09:34 2015
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:09:34 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <DF8166B7-A4D6-419D-B6E0-C993A705585C@661.org>

On September 27, 2015 2:14:33 PM PDT, "J?rg Hoppe" <j_hoppe at t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just finished a virtual PDP-11/70 panel for SimH.
> As always it's a BlinkenBone application; description and download is
> here:
> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh
> 
> After the PDP-11/40 and the PDP-10 KI10, this is the 3rd panel
> connected 
> to SimH in
> a both a physical and a simulated version.
> 
> I'll show this simulation, the physical PDP-11/70 panel and some more 
> panels on VCFB in Berlin,
> october 3rd and 4th. http://www.vcfb.de/2015/index.html.en
> 
> Have fun!
> Joerg

Might anyone have a bezel for the real thing available?
-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 22:39:53 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:39:53 -0700
Subject: Resetting/bypassing P/OS password on DEC Pro 3xx series?
Message-ID: <5608B689.6070907@gmail.com>

Anyone recall what the procedure is for resetting or bypassing the 
password on P/OS?

I *know* I was able to find this out before (in 2008 or so) because I 
did it on another Pro 350 I have, but I cannot for the life of me find 
anyplace that documents the procedure (the FAQ 
(http://www.deccomputer.info/2012/05) has no useful suggestions).

I recall it required booting from a special floppy that had a few 
filesystem tools that'd allow replacing the password file; I'm sure I 
still have the disk image but I have no idea which one it is.  I guess I 
should have saved the instructions somewhere (or maybe I did and I 
simply can't find them!).  I must be getting old.

I have a new Pro 350 in my possession which has a PC compatibility card; 
I'd like to see if the hard drive contains software for it (or anything 
else interesting) before I wipe it...

Thanks,
Josh

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep 27 23:39:26 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:39:26 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/05 restoration project - anyone has a M7810 or M781?
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SKcdeW+CZX50fgLfspY-R9a2+fRVM1=LJ00xrctqngbvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5608C47E.8070702@charter.net>

On 9/27/2015 2:54 PM, Mattis Lind wrote:

> Hello!
> 
> I have started to work slowly with the PDP-11/05 I received a year ago. It
> is the big BA11-D chassis type machine. The power supply is now fixed and
> working fine. A few smaller capacitors were leaking. But also one of the
> big input filtering capacitors was bad and had to be replaced.
> 
> The front panel have been cleaned and checked. The next step is to start
> looking into the the CPU itself. Unfortunately one of the CPU boards are
> marked "faulty" so there are certainly work to be done.
> 
> The plan is to get it to work with the 8kW core memory, M7800 connected to
> a good old teletype and PC05 paper-tape reader / punch and then run paper
> tape BASIC on it or other paper tape software.
> 
> The problem is that I am lacking in the M7810 board. Since I do have a M105
> and M7821 a M781 could do as well.
> 
> Does anyone has a M7810 or M781 to sell?

My inventory says I have one (it is the interface to a paper tape unit,
of course).  If I have at least 2 more in other machines, then I could
part with one - and I expect that I have at least 3 or 4 in machines.
The one I have in inventory is untested.  I will check on that tomorrow,
and get back to you on that situation directly.

Note that DEC had two paper tape units had different interfaces,
depending upon what they were used with.  For the PC11 card to interface
to it, it needs to be a PC11 or a PC05 with the right cards in it.

> 
> http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-05
> 
> BTW. Does anyone have a BA11-D chassis and could help me take a photo of
> the top and bottom covers? Those are missing on my machine and it seems
> impossible find a drawing for the BA11-D chassis itself. It is not in the
> PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings which I already have.
> 
> And if someone also have a G231 I would be interested because that would
> mean that the machine can be fully configured with 16 kWords!

I have several of those.  Most of those are also untested, but one has
been tested.

> 
> /Mattis
> 

In one of your other notes you mention Omnibus stuff.  I would love to
have an Omnibus paper tape interface, RK05 interface and/or RX01 interface.

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep 27 23:42:57 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:42:57 -0500
Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides
In-Reply-To: <AC541E4E85EC48E992041ADA8F50F2D7@CharlesHPLaptop>
References: <AC541E4E85EC48E992041ADA8F50F2D7@CharlesHPLaptop>
Message-ID: <5608C551.1030405@charter.net>

On 9/27/2015 2:39 PM, Charles wrote:
> I just acquired an RX01 drive (and an RX8E) for my 8/A system. It wasn't
> too painful to get it going, as the RX8E had "only" one bad IC that was
> easy to find and I had a spare. Details on the DEC forum at
> vintage-computer.com. Then the RX01 started audibly working, but with
> new-old-stock 3M diskettes, showed 22 seek errors on the first pass to
> Drive 0, finding good headers with correct CRC but the wrong ones a
> track or two away. That cleared up promptly and 25 successive passes had
> no errors on either drive. So now I have two floppies with 487 free
> blocks each, built in OS/8 ;)
> 
> However, the drive came only with the inner slides (that attach to the
> chassis), but not the outer rails that bolt to the rack.
> So I'm looking for either a complete pair of RX slides, or just the
> outer ones that I need. If they can't be had, I may have to find a
> heavy-duty rack shelf and set the drive on it. That would be
> inconvenient to service the drive but it should not need attention often.
> 
> Can anyone help me find some? Thanks.
> -Charles
> 
> 

I may have some - I have quite a few different slides.  However I
suggest that you 1) measure them (height and length) and 2) take a
photo.  Chassis slides had/have a way of getting swapped between units,
so it would be helpful to see exactly what you have so I can compare
them to my RX units and their slides first.

JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Sep 27 23:44:37 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:44:37 -0500
Subject: MARC (was Re: Thoughts on manual database design?)
In-Reply-To: <20150928003007.GJ94586@gmail.com>
References: <9d94.6af22c19.43330b13@aol.com>
 <000a01d0f585$902a6f60$b07f4e20$@classiccmp.org>
 <560207CC.6080104@charter.net>
 <24C0DDF3-9EE7-4103-A0B0-642A2A381B45@aracnet.com>
 <56022DF2.2070704@charter.net> <20150927053046.GH94586@gmail.com>
 <56081B40.7070000@charter.net> <20150928003007.GJ94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5608C5B5.2030506@charter.net>

On 9/27/2015 7:30 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> On 9/27/2015 12:30 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>>>> (BTW, My memory of that acronym is "Machine Assisted Resource
>>>> Coordinator", a small-sized Unix work-alike developed by Ed Ziemba (RIP)
>>>> using Leor Zolman's BDS C compiler).
>>>
>>> I'm having trouble finding much about this system; most of it is on your
>>> web page and the Wikipedia page for BDS C, which appears to borrow quite
>>> a bit from your page. Was MARC an OS itself, or a Unix-like layer on
>>> CP/M? Is it available to download and play with?
>>>
>>
>> I'm not surprised, as it was never available as a product.  I originally
>> inquired about it after an article about it in the BDS C User's Group
>> newsletter, and talked with Ed Ziemba, and he agreed to send me a copy
>> to play with / test.  I tested a few versions before Ed Ziemba's
>> passing, and did some work on programs like icheck/ncheck/dcheck.
>>
>> It was an operating system, not a layer on top of CP/M, although it did
>> use the CP/M BIOS calling conventions for the I/O layer.  And, until you
>> got your own BIOS integrated into your copy of MARC, it could boot by
>> starting up a CP/M program on top of your existing BIOS, which was
>> termed a "parasitic boot".
> 
> Did it have multitasking?
> 

No, not that I recall.  That would have taken additional hardware for a
timer interrupt, at the least, and my Altair never had that.  I recall
pipes being done as files, ala Mini-Unix.

JRJ


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 28 07:15:59 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:15:59 +0200
Subject: Resetting/bypassing P/OS password on DEC Pro 3xx series?
In-Reply-To: <5608B689.6070907@gmail.com>
References: <5608B689.6070907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56092F7F.4030308@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-28 05:39, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone recall what the procedure is for resetting or bypassing the
> password on P/OS?
>
> I *know* I was able to find this out before (in 2008 or so) because I
> did it on another Pro 350 I have, but I cannot for the life of me find
> anyplace that documents the procedure (the FAQ
> (http://www.deccomputer.info/2012/05) has no useful suggestions).
>
> I recall it required booting from a special floppy that had a few
> filesystem tools that'd allow replacing the password file; I'm sure I
> still have the disk image but I have no idea which one it is.  I guess I
> should have saved the instructions somewhere (or maybe I did and I
> simply can't find them!).  I must be getting old.
>
> I have a new Pro 350 in my possession which has a PC compatibility card;
> I'd like to see if the hard drive contains software for it (or anything
> else interesting) before I wipe it...

You might find some help/inspiration at 
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaq

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Sep 28 07:25:18 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:25:18 +0200
Subject: Resetting/bypassing P/OS password on DEC Pro 3xx series?
In-Reply-To: <56092F7F.4030308@update.uu.se>
References: <5608B689.6070907@gmail.com> <56092F7F.4030308@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <560931AE.7090309@update.uu.se>

On 2015-09-28 14:15, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-09-28 05:39, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Anyone recall what the procedure is for resetting or bypassing the
>> password on P/OS?
>>
>> I *know* I was able to find this out before (in 2008 or so) because I
>> did it on another Pro 350 I have, but I cannot for the life of me find
>> anyplace that documents the procedure (the FAQ
>> (http://www.deccomputer.info/2012/05) has no useful suggestions).
>>
>> I recall it required booting from a special floppy that had a few
>> filesystem tools that'd allow replacing the password file; I'm sure I
>> still have the disk image but I have no idea which one it is.  I guess I
>> should have saved the instructions somewhere (or maybe I did and I
>> simply can't find them!).  I must be getting old.
>>
>> I have a new Pro 350 in my possession which has a PC compatibility card;
>> I'd like to see if the hard drive contains software for it (or anything
>> else interesting) before I wipe it...
>
> You might find some help/inspiration at
> ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaq

Ah. Sorry. It seems the link you posted essentially have the same 
information as the FAQ I posted a link to. (Actually, I have the version 
you posted a link to as well.)

The question is addressed in Q30 in the document you linked, and in Q23 
in the document I linked (which is just an older version).

However, apart from the password floppy tip, I don't think the FAQ 
actually have a solution. The suggestions are based on how normal RSX 
works, which do not apply to the professional here.

	Johnny


From wulfman at wulfman.com  Mon Sep 28 08:59:14 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 06:59:14 -0700
Subject: retro computers in your browser
Message-ID: <560947B2.7040206@wulfman.com>

http://hackaday.com/2015/09/28/roundup-retro-computers-in-your-browser/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view

-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.


From ball.of.john at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 10:41:51 2015
From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 08:41:51 -0700
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1443373200.4893.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEFPCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>

>> I wanted to share this because it's pretty neat:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg
>>
>> It's a ~6 minute tour of a home automation system from the 1980s that
>> features graphical floor layouts and touch screen programming.  The
system
>> is built into the house.
>
>That screen looks so much like my HP 150 that I keep wondering if that?s
what they used >to build it.

The IR grid for simulating a touchscreen wasn't really HP exclusive. I got a
frame and control board here from Dale Electronics out of Nebraska from
probably the same time period that interfaces to anything that supports
RS-232.
I really am quite fond of the idea of some simple machine in your basement
with an X10 controller and a bunch of serial ports for terminals. Didn't
they phase out Minitel terminals in France and now a lot of them are
scattered about for pretty much free? Imagine having one of those puppies
with the fold-out keyboards built into the wall of every room in your house.
That interface looks like it would be easy to replicate with the extended
ASCII character set.
-John


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 28 11:16:22 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:16:22 -0400
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEFPCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEFPCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9402090B-77C3-4954-943C-482E53263E17@comcast.net>


> On Sep 28, 2015, at 11:41 AM, John Ball <ball.of.john at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> I wanted to share this because it's pretty neat:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BHIknNa6Eg
>>> 
>>> It's a ~6 minute tour of a home automation system from the 1980s that
>>> features graphical floor layouts and touch screen programming.  The
> system
>>> is built into the house.
>> 
>> That screen looks so much like my HP 150 that I keep wondering if that?s
> what they used >to build it.
> 
> The IR grid for simulating a touchscreen wasn't really HP exclusive. 

No, indeed.  IR based touchpanels were used in PLATO, as far back as 1974.  I think that may have been where it was invented, but I'm not positive about that.

CDC created touch panels suitable for the curved face of a CRT, using two sheets of plastic that would touch and make contact when pressed.  That was around 1976 or 1977, in the IST terminal (also for PLATO but not as nice as the original plasma panel terminals).

	paul



From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Mon Sep 28 11:21:35 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:21:35 -0700
Subject: Video tour of 1985 home automation system
In-Reply-To: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEFPCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
References: <BJEELKLADKAEMNHKAFMAMEFPCDAA.ball.of.john@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BB4BA4F-CE06-4F72-9B23-FE9D2C27E27B@fozztexx.com>


On Sep 28, 2015, at 8:41 AM, John Ball <ball.of.john at gmail.com> wrote:

> The IR grid for simulating a touchscreen wasn't really HP exclusive.

It?s not just the IR grid that makes it look like an HP 150. The green screen is the same size and the way that it draws the screen looks exactly like what I would expect from a program running on the HP 150.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From tshoppa at wmata.com  Mon Sep 28 12:36:06 2015
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 17:36:06 +0000
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>

These are the small 0.01uF or smaller capacitors with transparent edges and you can see foil in the innards? If so, I think you are talking about "polystyrene capacitors". Yes, they were extremely popular in UK/EU for at-chip decoupling capacitors in the 1970's and 80's. They are not polarized.

I'm not sure why polystyrenes were so popular for bypass/decoupling in EU and not so popular on this side of the pond.  Here in the US we were more likely to see polystyrene in audio filtering/coupling locations where the cheapest ceramics had odd piezo properties and low leakage of polystyrenes were desirable. I do remember seeing polystyrene bypass capacitors on at least a few DEC boards of the 70's so they did make some inroads.

There are real glass capacitors used where zero leakage and zero soakage are uber-concerns.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Sep 28 13:02:38 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:02:38 -0400
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <88CF9557-6B33-42B3-BC40-22C4A179936B@comcast.net>


> On Sep 28, 2015, at 1:36 PM, Shoppa, Tim <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:
> ...
> There are real glass capacitors used where zero leakage and zero soakage are uber-concerns.

There's no such thing as zero leakage, since all insulators have finite resistance.  Glass is a pretty good insulator, but in fact not the best -- fused quartz or amber are traditional better options where very low leakage is required, and a table in Wikipedia indicates that teflon is better still. 

	paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Sep 28 13:03:59 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:03:59 -0700
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <5609810E.6080009@sydex.com>

On 09/28/2015 10:36 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
> These are the small 0.01uF or smaller capacitors with transparent
> edges and you can see foil in the innards? If so, I think you are
> talking about "polystyrene capacitors". Yes, they were extremely
> popular in UK/EU for at-chip decoupling capacitors in the 1970's and
> 80's. They are not polarized.
>
> I'm not sure why polystyrenes were so popular for bypass/decoupling
> in EU and not so popular on this side of the pond.  Here in the US we
> were more likely to see polystyrene in audio filtering/coupling
> locations where the cheapest ceramics had odd piezo properties and
> low leakage of polystyrenes were desirable. I do remember seeing
> polystyrene bypass capacitors on at least a few DEC boards of the
> 70's so they did make some inroads.
>
> There are real glass capacitors used where zero leakage and zero
> soakage are uber-concerns.

Ah, now I understand what's being talked about.  "Bypass"  or even 
"decoupling" in the query would have sent me down the right path.  Were 
not for "small", I might have looked at some vacuum capacitors also.

Yeah, I've got a bunch of boards with those small glass ones in that 
application. My suspicion was that they were preferred in applications 
were soldering temps were likely to be very high.

Then there were the exploding Rifa caps used for AC line filters.

--Chuck


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 28 15:45:46 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 13:45:46 -0700
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <5609810E.6080009@sydex.com>
References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
 <5609810E.6080009@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <44F1F8D8-A8DF-400B-97A8-B7A825B53EFD@nf6x.net>

I've seen these caps. They look like a typical surface mount ceramic cap, installed inside a glass housing with wire leads. They almost look like glass-cased small signal diodes at first glance, until you look more closely and see the small multilayer capacitor inside the glass housing.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon Sep 28 15:49:08 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 13:49:08 -0700
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <44F1F8D8-A8DF-400B-97A8-B7A825B53EFD@nf6x.net>
References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BC8895BE6@JGEX2K10MBX3.wmata.local>
 <5609810E.6080009@sydex.com> <44F1F8D8-A8DF-400B-97A8-B7A825B53EFD@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <15CD5EF8-7E14-49A4-AA6B-11220DCA5265@nf6x.net>

Here's a picture that I found online:

http://s7.photobucket.com/user/earthman606/media/glasscapacitor.jpg.html


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 16:01:49 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:01:49 -0600
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
In-Reply-To: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>

The 11/780 used a normal RX11 interface to a single-drive RX01 in
nonstandard packaging.

I don't know any reason to think that an 11/23 CPU wouldn't work, but I'm
not aware of anyone having done it.

From ad at ardiehl.de  Mon Sep 28 18:15:29 2015
From: ad at ardiehl.de (Armin Diehl)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 01:15:29 +0200
Subject: retro computers in your browser
In-Reply-To: <560947B2.7040206@wulfman.com>
References: <560947B2.7040206@wulfman.com>
Message-ID: <5609CA11.90507@ardiehl.de>

a PDP11 implemented in javascript running UNIX Sixth Edition, really nice.
and the PC running IBM DOS 2.0

Thanks for the link


On 09/28/2015 03:59 PM, wulfman wrote:
> http://hackaday.com/2015/09/28/roundup-retro-computers-in-your-browser/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view
>


-- 

----------------
Gr?sse
Armin Diehl
ad at basicfour.de


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Sep 28 20:46:32 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:46:32 -0500
Subject: retro computers in your browser
In-Reply-To: <5609CA11.90507@ardiehl.de>
References: <560947B2.7040206@wulfman.com> <5609CA11.90507@ardiehl.de>
Message-ID: <000001d0fa58$abb2eb40$0318c1c0$@classiccmp.org>

The H89 emulator is pretty fun :)

Thanks for the link!

J



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Sep 29 01:52:32 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 01:52:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Small glass capacitors polarized?
In-Reply-To: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509290126410.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> > From: drlegendre
>
> > I'm not sure what you're describing. Can you link to a pic of one of 
> > these caps?
>
> http://www.electrical4u.com/images/glass-capacitor.jpg

These are hermetically sealed ceramic and are non-polarized. The glass 
encapsulation made them more expensive so they were usually only used in 
high reliability, aerospace, military, etc type applications. There are 
also similar sized axial ceramics which are epoxy dipped which are not 
hermetically sealed.

One downside is like glass encapsulated diodes, you have to be careful to 
support their leads at the capacitor's body while forming to avoid 
cracking their glass shell. Also like with glass encapsulated diodes, they 
should be covered with clear heatshrink if the board will be conformal 
coated.

As for wound foil capacitor types, they sort of have polarity. In audio 
and other noise sensitive applications, the outside foil end of the 
capacitor should be connected to ground or the lower potential side of the 
circuit. You also can't go by the black band printed on new manufacture 
parts as it does not actually indicate the outside foil end (they are 
printed randomly). When I briefly mentioned these before, someone pointed 
me to this video which goes into more detail. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 07:20:55 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:20:55 +0200
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>

A little offtopic but I hope of some interest.

I rather miss the days of small, simple, 8-bit computers which a
single non-specialist could really get inside and understand.

The latest OS I've seen which addresses this longing is Interim.


http://interim.mntmn.com/


This is most of the introduction from the explanatory paper:


?
Computers, networks and the software running them today are shrouded in
mysteries and corporate secrecy. As miniaturization progresses in the name
of mobility and energy-efficiency, an increasing amount of complex
functionality is crammed into ever smaller System-on-Chip dies.


The so-called "Home computers" of the 1980s contained comparably larger
and simpler circuit boards with blocky, easily discernible DIP (Dual
in-line package) components and circuits that could be visually understood
by the human eye. The central processing unit (CPU) was easily identified
by its size and exposed placement. The separate memory chips were neatly
arranged like terraced houses. The computers worked in pedestrian
single-digit-Mhz speeds and memory was measured in kilobytes. They shipped
with handbooks that taught a novice reader how to program the machine, and
a circuit diagram of the whole machine ? useful for repairs ? was easily
available.


In the 1980s home computer era, operating systems where typically stored
in read-only memory (ROM) chips. As in modern proprietary operating
systems, the source code was not directly available, but this was not
strictly necessary, as they were written in assembly language and not
"compiled" from a higher level language. Commented "dis-assemblies",
machine code listings, were available in printed book form [Schineis1984]
for popular computers like the Commodore 64 and its "KERNAL" OS and BASIC
language interpreter.


Today, we have Linux, probably the most successful open source Unix-like
operating system and the BSD family of OSes, but these systems and most of
the platforms they run on (PCs, ARM-based telephones) are so complex and
contain so many obscure components that no single book can describe their
operating principles in full detail, and trying to understand and master
them is a task that takes many years of study.


With "Interim", I try to describe a computer and operating system that
takes advantage of modern-day hardware technology while ideally being
fully comprehensible in a couple of days. My strategy is to use minimalism
and generic, reusable patterns wherever possible while learning from
historical, ultimately unsuccessful but valuable attempts like Lisp
machines or the operating system Plan 9 from Bell Labs [Pike]. The Interim
system is supposed to be a pointer in the right direction, not a perfect
blueprint, and a documentation of my own experimental attempts. Others may
build upon these ideas.
?

(Yes, it's Lisp-y.)

The previous OS with this view being TempleOS: http://www.templeos.org/

This is a nice explanatory quote:

?
The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
ring-0-only and identity-mapped.  Linux wants to be a secure,
multi-user mainframe.
That's the vision for Linux.  That's why it has file permissions.  The
vision for
TempleOS is a modern, 64-bit Commodore 64.  The C64 was a home computer
mostly used for games.  It trained my generation how to program.  It was simple,
open and hackable.  It was not networked.  The games were not multimedia works
of art, but generated programmatically with innocent, programmer (non-artist)
quality graphics.  It was simple and unsecure.  If you don't have malware
and you don't have bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the code
complicated.
?


Source: http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Home/Wb2/TempleOS.html


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 29 07:57:13 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 08:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEC handles
Message-ID: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC Flip Chip
modules (single, double and quad)? Magenta would be great, but really, any
colour would be acceptable, if magenta's not available. (And no, I don't want
to salvage them from otherwise useless cards!)

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 08:31:47 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 09:31:47 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufOO+G9KfnnUndZx9ewbApaMUg6ESjh7NjS=DFB-ffPUg@mail.gmail.com>

how about other bad cards or unidentified off brand custom cards that have
no home, I have seen re-purposed tabs before.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC Flip
> Chip
> modules (single, double and quad)? Magenta would be great, but really, any
> colour would be acceptable, if magenta's not available. (And no, I don't
> want
> to salvage them from otherwise useless cards!)
>
>         Noel
>



-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 29 08:34:02 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 08:34:02 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>

Is source available somewhere?  I'd like to study your techniques as I
eventually want to do something similar for an IBM 1410.

JRJ

On 9/27/2015 4:14 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just finished a virtual PDP-11/70 panel for SimH.
> As always it's a BlinkenBone application; description and download is here:
> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh
> 
> 
> After the PDP-11/40 and the PDP-10 KI10, this is the 3rd panel connected
> to SimH in
> a both a physical and a simulated version.
> 
> I'll show this simulation, the physical PDP-11/70 panel and some more
> panels on VCFB in Berlin,
> october 3rd and 4th. http://www.vcfb.de/2015/index.html.en
> 
> Have fun!
> Joerg
> 
> 

From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Tue Sep 29 10:39:08 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 08:39:08 -0700
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <AECBA9F38C9D4D6694CFE344871E86F2@Vincew7>

From: Noel Chiappa: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:57 AM
> Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC Flip Chip
> modules (single, double and quad)? Magenta would be great, but really, any
> colour would be acceptable, if magenta's not available. (And no, I don't want
> to salvage them from otherwise useless cards!)

For a one-off, you could print the .stl file for the most
common type from here (note: inches!):
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php
or have an outfit like Shapeways do it for you.

If you're wanting a number of them, it would be worth
it to make an RTV mold and cast them in two-part
resin from an existing original.  The shape is pretty
simple, and the geometry is large/coarse enough to
be fairly forgiving.

Douglas Electronics still sold them last time I checked,
but I can't find them on their new website:
http://www.douglas.com/index.php/off-the-shelf-solutions/bread-boards-by-function.html/
http://www.douglas.com/index.php/21-de-7.html

For attachment, small zip ties work surprisingly well, as
do the softer pop-rivets (put the flange side on the back).

    Vince 


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Tue Sep 29 10:44:27 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 10:44:27 -0500
Subject: PC8E interface to other tape readers?
Message-ID: <0835BC6C68EA4752B8DB2D35E2CB40D2@CharlesHPLaptop>

The 8/A's power supply, RL02's and RX01 is all working fine (knocking on 
wood)... so far, no return of the dreaded Power OK "flicker". Maybe it 
really is fixed this time.. Famous last words, I know!

Now I am pondering my PC8E (M840) reader/punch control board, and a Slo-Syn 
TRP125 reel-to-reel 1" 8-bit paper tape reader that's been sitting unused in 
my other rack, probably for at least ten years when I got it very cheap. I'm 
thinking of interfacing them since I don't have a PC04 and no pressing need 
(or money) for one. The TRP125 can do 125 characters per second, not as good 
as the 300 of the PC04 but still much faster than the ASR-33 if I feel like 
messing with paper tapes...

The drive just needs a pulse to move the tape. Data can be read/strobed into 
the PC8E register almost any time the tape is not actually moving. (A real 
PC04 has a stepper motor controlled by the PC8E, so one of those four step 
outputs will probably work as a move pulse). Doubt I'd ever need to back up 
the tape one character.
Timing will probably need to be adjusted for some pulse widths and the rep 
rate which is slower. (1 byte is 8 ms on this one but 3.33 ms on the PC04. 
The no-tape timeout of the PC8E is 10 ms).

One thing missing from the TRP125 is a tape-out indication and motor stop, 
though. The TRP125 reel drive motors keep spinning until the tension arms 
are manually raised to a detent position that actuates microswitches to turn 
the motors off. The ASR-33 stops automatically when the tape has run out, 
which would be useful. I suppose I could add a microswitch to sense the 
presence of tape, or perhaps an LED/photocell to read the sprocket holes and 
provide pulses as the PC04 does. Otherwise I'd have to "fake" the feed hole 
pulses and manually shut the reader off once the tape runs out.

I'd like to hear from anyone who's done something similar to interface a 
non-DEC tape reader.
thanks
Charles


From wilson at dbit.com  Tue Sep 29 11:32:44 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:32:44 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150929163244.GA7074@dbit.dbit.com>

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 08:57:13AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC Flip Chip
>modules (single, double and quad)? Magenta would be great, but really, any
>colour would be acceptable, if magenta's not available. (And no, I don't want
>to salvage them from otherwise useless cards!)

The Scanbe 40080 handle fits, even if it's not quite identical.
Plain white nylon.  No longer made (Newark *used* to have them) but there
may still be old stock in the world (or at least it looked that way last
time I went googling).

I think the last time we talked about Stu Phillips, someone who'd known
him said that by now he must be very retired, if he's around.  Too bad
because he was the go-to guy for all the aftermarket cards in the 1980s
(most of those handles have his initials or name on them -- he had both
plastic ones and the quad/hex metal ones).

Again, I'm curious what it would take to get a real mold made (there are
service bureaus that advertise that on eBay but I have no idea what they'd
need to work from).  It seems like there are plastic shops on every street
corner here in western Mass. ... to the extent we have street corners.

John Wilson
D Bit

From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 11:33:46 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:33:46 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <AECBA9F38C9D4D6694CFE344871E86F2@Vincew7>
References: <20150929125713.D355F18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <AECBA9F38C9D4D6694CFE344871E86F2@Vincew7>
Message-ID: <8A1C36F9-0F56-4897-A0E9-B3C4A9887D94@gmail.com>

There's a surplus place here in Orlando that has a bin full of dec style handles in white. Google skycraft surplus. Their web site doesn't do justice to the store. You never know what you will find. I got an 11/23 with dual rl02 there a few years back. It's Orlando's second favorite attraction ;-) 
Joe

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 11:39 AM, "Vincent Slyngstad" <v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Noel Chiappa: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:57 AM
>> Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC Flip Chip
>> modules (single, double and quad)? Magenta would be great, but really, any
>> colour would be acceptable, if magenta's not available. (And no, I don't want
>> to salvage them from otherwise useless cards!)
> 
> For a one-off, you could print the .stl file for the most
> common type from here (note: inches!):
> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php
> or have an outfit like Shapeways do it for you.
> 
> If you're wanting a number of them, it would be worth
> it to make an RTV mold and cast them in two-part
> resin from an existing original.  The shape is pretty
> simple, and the geometry is large/coarse enough to
> be fairly forgiving.
> 
> Douglas Electronics still sold them last time I checked,
> but I can't find them on their new website:
> http://www.douglas.com/index.php/off-the-shelf-solutions/bread-boards-by-function.html/
> http://www.douglas.com/index.php/21-de-7.html
> 
> For attachment, small zip ties work surprisingly well, as
> do the softer pop-rivets (put the flange side on the back).
> 
>   Vince 

From spedraja at ono.com  Tue Sep 29 12:06:25 2015
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:06:25 +0200
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Very interesting. I must do an end-of-training project this year involving
Rapsberry Pi devices. Perhaps I'll give it a try.

Regards
Sergio

2015-09-29 14:20 GMT+02:00 Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>:

> A little offtopic but I hope of some interest.
>
> I rather miss the days of small, simple, 8-bit computers which a
> single non-specialist could really get inside and understand.
>
> The latest OS I've seen which addresses this longing is Interim.
>
>
> http://interim.mntmn.com/
>
>
> This is most of the introduction from the explanatory paper:
>
>
> ?
> Computers, networks and the software running them today are shrouded in
> mysteries and corporate secrecy. As miniaturization progresses in the name
> of mobility and energy-efficiency, an increasing amount of complex
> functionality is crammed into ever smaller System-on-Chip dies.
>
>
> The so-called "Home computers" of the 1980s contained comparably larger
> and simpler circuit boards with blocky, easily discernible DIP (Dual
> in-line package) components and circuits that could be visually understood
> by the human eye. The central processing unit (CPU) was easily identified
> by its size and exposed placement. The separate memory chips were neatly
> arranged like terraced houses. The computers worked in pedestrian
> single-digit-Mhz speeds and memory was measured in kilobytes. They shipped
> with handbooks that taught a novice reader how to program the machine, and
> a circuit diagram of the whole machine ? useful for repairs ? was easily
> available.
>
>
> In the 1980s home computer era, operating systems where typically stored
> in read-only memory (ROM) chips. As in modern proprietary operating
> systems, the source code was not directly available, but this was not
> strictly necessary, as they were written in assembly language and not
> "compiled" from a higher level language. Commented "dis-assemblies",
> machine code listings, were available in printed book form [Schineis1984]
> for popular computers like the Commodore 64 and its "KERNAL" OS and BASIC
> language interpreter.
>
>
> Today, we have Linux, probably the most successful open source Unix-like
> operating system and the BSD family of OSes, but these systems and most of
> the platforms they run on (PCs, ARM-based telephones) are so complex and
> contain so many obscure components that no single book can describe their
> operating principles in full detail, and trying to understand and master
> them is a task that takes many years of study.
>
>
> With "Interim", I try to describe a computer and operating system that
> takes advantage of modern-day hardware technology while ideally being
> fully comprehensible in a couple of days. My strategy is to use minimalism
> and generic, reusable patterns wherever possible while learning from
> historical, ultimately unsuccessful but valuable attempts like Lisp
> machines or the operating system Plan 9 from Bell Labs [Pike]. The Interim
> system is supposed to be a pointer in the right direction, not a perfect
> blueprint, and a documentation of my own experimental attempts. Others may
> build upon these ideas.
> ?
>
> (Yes, it's Lisp-y.)
>
> The previous OS with this view being TempleOS: http://www.templeos.org/
>
> This is a nice explanatory quote:
>
> ?
> The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
> ring-0-only and identity-mapped.  Linux wants to be a secure,
> multi-user mainframe.
> That's the vision for Linux.  That's why it has file permissions.  The
> vision for
> TempleOS is a modern, 64-bit Commodore 64.  The C64 was a home computer
> mostly used for games.  It trained my generation how to program.  It was
> simple,
> open and hackable.  It was not networked.  The games were not multimedia
> works
> of art, but generated programmatically with innocent, programmer
> (non-artist)
> quality graphics.  It was simple and unsecure.  If you don't have malware
> and you don't have bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the
> code
> complicated.
> ?
>
>
> Source: http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Home/Wb2/TempleOS.html
>
>
> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
>

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep 29 13:15:28 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 20:15:28 +0200
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de>

Eric Smith wrote:

> The 11/780 used a normal RX11 interface to a single-drive RX01 in
> nonstandard packaging.

Ah, ok.

> 
> I don't know any reason to think that an 11/23 CPU wouldn't work, but I'm
> not aware of anyone having done it.

Runni (friend of mine) told my that his 11/780 (cray-cyber.org?) had
a QBus VAX installed as console...hmm.. I think that this may
possible..but ...really? That where somewhat perverse ....

Has someone else seen this?

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 29 13:22:32 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEC handles
Message-ID: <20150929182232.C934118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Joseph Lang

    > There's a surplus place here in Orlando that has a bin full of dec
    > style handles in white. Google skycraft surplus.

I just called them, but they couldn't find them? How long ago was it that you
saw them? If recently, can you describe where it was in the place that you
saw them? Thanks!

	Noel

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Sep 29 13:22:56 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 20:22:56 +0200
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
In-Reply-To: <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> > The 11/780 used a normal RX11 interface to a single-drive RX01 in
> > nonstandard packaging.
> 
> Ah, ok.
> 
> > 
> > I don't know any reason to think that an 11/23 CPU wouldn't work, but I'm
> > not aware of anyone having done it.
> 
> Runni (friend of mine) told my that his 11/780 (cray-cyber.org?) had
> a QBus VAX installed as console...hmm.. I think that this may
> possible..but ...really? That where somewhat perverse ....
> 
> Has someone else seen this?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 
Forgot to ask:
In the VAX CPU the M8236 should be the Interface to the Console Computer,
what is ion the other reEnd in the PDP11?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 29 14:05:43 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:05:43 -0500
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
In-Reply-To: <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <560AE107.50706@charter.net>

On 9/29/2015 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>
> Forgot to ask:
> In the VAX CPU the M8236 should be the Interface to the Console Computer,
> what is ion the other reEnd in the PDP11?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 

I have one taken out of a VAX 11/780, and my inventory records indicate
it is an M9400-YE.

The complete complement of boards in that machine, in slot order:

M7264-YC  	(CPU)
M7946		(RXV11 floppy control)
M7940		(DLV11 serial port)
M8400-EH	(Memory)
M9400-YE	(Terminator / VAX Interface - presumably has ROMS too).

JRJ


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 14:13:07 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 13:13:07 -0600
Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAFrGgTR29G8c4n8wDo6oiZiOzeKRzxYdpOOQ29gV1451Q7c1Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR9P8cHpway3tZOKMDQt_u5AtgyBtrzsSDkb2pzkELP-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> The 11/780 used a normal RX11 interface to a single-drive RX01 in
> nonstandard packaging.

Sorry, I should have said RXV11, not RX11.

From seefriek at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 16:24:22 2015
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:24:22 -0400
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
all looking like:

http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter

Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?

KJ

From mspproductions at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 16:29:03 2015
From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:29:03 -0400
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA0A79A3-270C-48D2-ADB5-5C1D8A60807F@gmail.com>

Ken,

I don't have personal experience with those but I can tell you those would only be good for the smaller electrolytics and not the big ones in the power supply.
For those you will want an older capacitor tester made for big caps, Hallacrafters, Heathkit and Solar made ones that would go up to 500v in testing 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
> market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
> the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
> is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
> all looking like:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter
> 
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
> 
> KJ

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 16:48:21 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:48:21 +0100
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ken
> Seefried
> Sent: 29 September 2015 22:24
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
> 
> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the market for
> an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for the AnaTek
> 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay is flooded with
> knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers all looking like:
> 

The software is open source and as there is no single supplier "knock off" isn't perhaps appropriate..

> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-
> Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-
> 16&keywords=esr+meter
> 
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?

I have one. I havn't used it for checking ESR but it works at a low voltage so it may not be effective on big caps. On the other hand this

http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr60.html

retails for nearer $130 and when I checked it also measures at 3v. Lots more comments here:-

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$20-lcr-esr-transistor-checker-project/

> 
> KJ

Dave
G4UGM



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Sep 29 16:59:01 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 16:59:01 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>

This is the one I have used for years.....

http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm

About $88 USD

J




From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 17:12:14 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:12:14 -0500
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150929182232.C934118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150929182232.C934118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPPxePA4M3gz_ZbEm_54w1w_HDEGau_DXz_NGMBbhM4Lw@mail.gmail.com>

The maroon handles? do you care if they have #s on  them, or blank?

How many do you need?

Paul

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Joseph Lang
>
>     > There's a surplus place here in Orlando that has a bin full of dec
>     > style handles in white. Google skycraft surplus.
>
> I just called them, but they couldn't find them? How long ago was it that
> you
> saw them? If recently, can you describe where it was in the place that you
> saw them? Thanks!
>
>         Noel
>

From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Tue Sep 29 10:19:16 2015
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 01:19:16 +1000
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de> <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>
Message-ID: <FC547F02-82FF-49D6-9C85-6F1695EE83A4@retrocomputingtasmania.com>

On 29 Sep 2015, at 11:34 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> Is source available somewhere?
http://www.retrocmp.com/attachments/article/243/blinkenbone_src.tgz

Found under attachments from the original link:

>> On 9/27/2015 4:14 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>> As always it's a BlinkenBone application; description and download is here:
>> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Tue Sep 29 10:43:27 2015
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:43:27 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de> <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>
Message-ID: <560AB19F.3030503@t-online.de>

Jay,

sources are here:
http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh

There are 3 subprojects:
- the modified SimH with new REALCONS device in "020simh.382.jh"
- the RPC network based Blinkenlight API modules in "070blinkenlight_api"
- the Java panel simulations in "09javapanelsim"

Conceptual documentation is here:
http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone
... best start with "Architectural overview.

You will have questions ;-) ... contact me!

Joerg


Am 29.09.2015 um 15:34 schrieb Jay Jaeger:
> Is source available somewhere?  I'd like to study your techniques as I
> eventually want to do something similar for an IBM 1410.
>
> JRJ
>
> On 9/27/2015 4:14 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just finished a virtual PDP-11/70 panel for SimH.
>> As always it's a BlinkenBone application; description and download is here:
>> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh
>>
>>
>> After the PDP-11/40 and the PDP-10 KI10, this is the 3rd panel connected
>> to SimH in
>> a both a physical and a simulated version.
>>
>> I'll show this simulation, the physical PDP-11/70 panel and some more
>> panels on VCFB in Berlin,
>> october 3rd and 4th. http://www.vcfb.de/2015/index.html.en
>>
>> Have fun!
>> Joerg
>>
>>
>

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Sep 29 10:55:01 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 10:55:01 -0500
Subject: PDP-11/70 console panel for SimH
In-Reply-To: <560AB19F.3030503@t-online.de>
References: <56085C39.9040702@t-online.de> <560A934A.2060903@charter.net>
 <560AB19F.3030503@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <560AB455.7010703@charter.net>

On 9/29/2015 10:43 AM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
> Jay,
> 
> sources are here:
> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh
> 
> 
> There are 3 subprojects:
> - the modified SimH with new REALCONS device in "020simh.382.jh"
> - the RPC network based Blinkenlight API modules in "070blinkenlight_api"
> - the Java panel simulations in "09javapanelsim"
> 
> Conceptual documentation is here:
> http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone
> ... best start with "Architectural overview.
> 
> You will have questions ;-) ... contact me!
> 
> Joerg
> 
> 

Thanks.  I'll have a look.

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue Sep 29 12:18:04 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 13:18:04 -0400
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV-1WTaU_5PhKt5onUkajJBUVNBbksKfXTVGgzHRBuJAA@mail.gmail.com>

That's neat ... I promised myself I'd finish my 6502 SBC before I moved up
to building a 16 or 32-bit machine :O Just gotta finish my ROM monitor ...
My aim is much simpler ... just "deposit", "examine", "fill", ... Looking
forward to learning and moving on to more complex systems :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:06 PM, SPC <spedraja at ono.com> wrote:

> Very interesting. I must do an end-of-training project this year involving
> Rapsberry Pi devices. Perhaps I'll give it a try.
>
> Regards
> Sergio
>
> 2015-09-29 14:20 GMT+02:00 Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>:
>
> > A little offtopic but I hope of some interest.
> >
> > I rather miss the days of small, simple, 8-bit computers which a
> > single non-specialist could really get inside and understand.
> >
> > The latest OS I've seen which addresses this longing is Interim.
> >
> >
> > http://interim.mntmn.com/
> >
> >
> > This is most of the introduction from the explanatory paper:
> >
> >
> > ?
> > Computers, networks and the software running them today are shrouded in
> > mysteries and corporate secrecy. As miniaturization progresses in the
> name
> > of mobility and energy-efficiency, an increasing amount of complex
> > functionality is crammed into ever smaller System-on-Chip dies.
> >
> >
> > The so-called "Home computers" of the 1980s contained comparably larger
> > and simpler circuit boards with blocky, easily discernible DIP (Dual
> > in-line package) components and circuits that could be visually
> understood
> > by the human eye. The central processing unit (CPU) was easily identified
> > by its size and exposed placement. The separate memory chips were neatly
> > arranged like terraced houses. The computers worked in pedestrian
> > single-digit-Mhz speeds and memory was measured in kilobytes. They
> shipped
> > with handbooks that taught a novice reader how to program the machine,
> and
> > a circuit diagram of the whole machine ? useful for repairs ? was easily
> > available.
> >
> >
> > In the 1980s home computer era, operating systems where typically stored
> > in read-only memory (ROM) chips. As in modern proprietary operating
> > systems, the source code was not directly available, but this was not
> > strictly necessary, as they were written in assembly language and not
> > "compiled" from a higher level language. Commented "dis-assemblies",
> > machine code listings, were available in printed book form [Schineis1984]
> > for popular computers like the Commodore 64 and its "KERNAL" OS and BASIC
> > language interpreter.
> >
> >
> > Today, we have Linux, probably the most successful open source Unix-like
> > operating system and the BSD family of OSes, but these systems and most
> of
> > the platforms they run on (PCs, ARM-based telephones) are so complex and
> > contain so many obscure components that no single book can describe their
> > operating principles in full detail, and trying to understand and master
> > them is a task that takes many years of study.
> >
> >
> > With "Interim", I try to describe a computer and operating system that
> > takes advantage of modern-day hardware technology while ideally being
> > fully comprehensible in a couple of days. My strategy is to use
> minimalism
> > and generic, reusable patterns wherever possible while learning from
> > historical, ultimately unsuccessful but valuable attempts like Lisp
> > machines or the operating system Plan 9 from Bell Labs [Pike]. The
> Interim
> > system is supposed to be a pointer in the right direction, not a perfect
> > blueprint, and a documentation of my own experimental attempts. Others
> may
> > build upon these ideas.
> > ?
> >
> > (Yes, it's Lisp-y.)
> >
> > The previous OS with this view being TempleOS: http://www.templeos.org/
> >
> > This is a nice explanatory quote:
> >
> > ?
> > The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
> > ring-0-only and identity-mapped.  Linux wants to be a secure,
> > multi-user mainframe.
> > That's the vision for Linux.  That's why it has file permissions.  The
> > vision for
> > TempleOS is a modern, 64-bit Commodore 64.  The C64 was a home computer
> > mostly used for games.  It trained my generation how to program.  It was
> > simple,
> > open and hackable.  It was not networked.  The games were not multimedia
> > works
> > of art, but generated programmatically with innocent, programmer
> > (non-artist)
> > quality graphics.  It was simple and unsecure.  If you don't have malware
> > and you don't have bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the
> > code
> > complicated.
> > ?
> >
> >
> > Source: http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Home/Wb2/TempleOS.html
> >
> >
> > --
> > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
> >
>

From steve at tronola.com  Tue Sep 29 13:13:02 2015
From: steve at tronola.com (Stephen Lafferty)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:13:02 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1443546000.81122.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.2.1443546000.81122.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <560AD4AE.7040901@tronola.com>

Hi Noel,
> Hi all, does anyone know of a source for the plastic handles on DEC 
> Flip Chip
> modules (single, double and quad)? 
--- When I bought the Omnibus prototyping board from Douglas Electronics 
by phone a few years ago, the lady I spoke to offered to include handles 
for a small price. The board I ordered, by the way, was their part 
number 12-DE-8. I have not found the handles mentioned on their website 
but I might have missed it. The board product link is: 
http://www.douglas.com/index.php/12-de-8.html

Steve Lafferty
http://www.tronola.com/


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Sep 29 17:34:40 2015
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:34:40 -0400
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C287A6D7EB3499183274CCC5E717940@TeoPC>

Never used one on a power supply but for motherboard capacitors and misc 
parts they work fine. For the price they are worth having around.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Ken Seefried
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:24 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations

I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
all looking like:

http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter

Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?

KJ 


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 18:11:29 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:11:29 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <1C287A6D7EB3499183274CCC5E717940@TeoPC>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1C287A6D7EB3499183274CCC5E717940@TeoPC>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4zmv2DRn=zzUbVs1av5RmNCTbdXuTuAbrSxhZvN-_uMA@mail.gmail.com>

Ken,

I have two of the Atmega328 uC based 'swissknife' testers you mention, cost
about $25 ea. on eBay, and have been exceptionally happy with them. They're
a brilliant little piece of instrumentation, and IMHO no electronics
hobbyist should be without one. For quick testing & ID of SS components,
they're just the ticket.

Secondly, I have one of these units: http://midwestdevices.com/ -
"Capacitor Wizard". They are also quite useful, and have some nice features
like a quick-reading analog scale and audible indicator allowing you to set
an ESR threshold and then test eyes-off the meter. This can be a real
safety measure, if you're working deep inside a chassis. They are a bit
overpriced for what you get, though, IMHO.

If you're mainly interested in testing for leakage in caps, and want to
test them +at+ real working voltages, then you need a device like a
Heathkit IT-28 or its Eico / Paco equivalent. Note that these are all "LCR
bridges" with leakage test as an added feature. The Heath unit goes to 600V
DC, not sure of the others.

Finally, there are the "in circuit capacitor checkers" made by Paco and
possibly Heath / Eico. These are semi-useful, but in reality, they are
pretty dang obsolete - and for some reason, folks pay a lot for them on
eBay.. no idea why. Thing is, to really peg down any ESR trouble, you
always need to disconnect one end anyway (in case of circuit loading or
other fault) - so what's the real value of "in circuit" in that case?

HTH

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:34 PM, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Never used one on a power supply but for motherboard capacitors and misc
> parts they work fine. For the price they are worth having around.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ken Seefried
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:24 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
>
> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
> market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
> the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
> is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
> all looking like:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter
>
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
>
> KJ
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 29 18:49:46 2015
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:49:46 -0600
Subject: PiDP8/I & ETOS
Message-ID: <007801d0fb11$85fcafd0$91f60f70$@yahoo.com>

I've been monkeying around with Oscars amazing PiDP8 replica the last few
weeks, attempting to get a cool demo going for the local hackerspace, to
show what computing used to look like.

 

I've managed to this point to get 2 serial terminals (a DEC VT102, and a
Morrow MDT-60) running at the same time on simh4 and ETOS. I do have the set
tsc enabled, and .R ETOS is up and running.

 

I've stumbled through enough of the config to add a second serial terminal
on the KL8JA using IOTTAB. I can run basic, and a few other programs at the
same time on either terminal, and watch it time share the limited resources
(I have simh throttled to .5 Mips, which apparently is correct for an 8/I).

 

The step I'm at now, is I'd like to copy a bunch of OS/8  games into either
a public disk, or make an RK05 image available to either a single user, or
as a public disk. I would be great to have advent.sv running on one
terminal, or star trek on another. Maybe blackjack, or hangman.

 

I'm running the etosv5b-demo.rk05 file from http://www.pdp8.net/os/etos/
(located in ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/images/etos/), configured for extra KL8JA
terminals.

 

I do have the user manual, and system managers guide for ETOS, that I've
changed from multipage .tiff to a single PDF.

 

I've read the SMG around 5.11 (Creating a public pack), but it references a
cmd .R DSKINT, which doesn't appear on any of the available ETOS rk05
images.

 

I also don't see (and I might be missing something obvious), a way to mount
an RK05 disk so even  a single user can access it at a time..

 

Thanks for reading. Joe

 

 

 

 

 


From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 17:35:03 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:35:03 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150929182232.C934118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150929182232.C934118C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <FEF6558F-4B7D-463F-9A1A-E5FFF9C8A3C5@gmail.com>

Last week....
I'll take a look some time this week.
How many do you want?

Joe

On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:22 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:

>> From: Joseph Lang
> 
>> There's a surplus place here in Orlando that has a bin full of dec
>> style handles in white. Google skycraft surplus.
> 
> I just called them, but they couldn't find them? How long ago was it that you
> saw them? If recently, can you describe where it was in the place that you
> saw them? Thanks!
> 
>    Noel

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Tue Sep 29 19:46:49 2015
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:46:49 -0500
Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides
Message-ID: <C4A1EF45C8F944A2A21F118183F179C0@CharlesHPLaptop>

Thinking I had an easy solution to the missing outer slide, I ordered a $40 
pair of new heavy-duty rack slides from eBay. Beautiful pieces and 
ball-bearing slides, decent quality hardware too. Only had to drill a couple 
of holes in them so they'd match the drive chassis, mounted everything up, 
and then discovered that they were 1/4" too narrow, no matter how I arranged 
the brackets, and the drive wouldn't slide between the rack rails. Crap!

So I bought two 24" pieces of 2 x 2 x 1/8" angle iron at the local steel 
place for a whopping $1.40, drilled four holes in each, sanded off the 
scale/surface rust, bolted them to the rack and slid the drive right in. You 
can't even see the "homemade" part unless you're really looking, too. 
Should've done that to start with. If I ever need to service the drive, I'll 
just slide it back out and set it on the bench...

http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/DrCharlesMorris/media/PDP-8/P09-29-15_19.00_zpscspxbfyi.jpg.html
http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/DrCharlesMorris/media/PDP-8/P09-29-15_19.001_zpsoyzjubaz.jpg.html

However, if anyone should stumble over a set of stock RX sliding rails I'd 
be interested for the sake of originality ;)
Jay, let me know exactly what measurements you would need. There's a pretty 
good view of the inside rail on the second pic.

thanks
Charles


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep 29 20:36:11 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEC handles
Message-ID: <20150930013611.26CAF18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Joseph Lang

    > How many do you want?

How many do I need, or how many do I want? :-)

I'm tempted to buy the whole bin (unless it's like a 55 gallon barrel :-),
and hold onto them for other CCTalk people who need them.

Maybe this will work: if you find them, point them out to the store people,
and tell them I'll call? Would that be the easiest thing for you?

Thanks!

	Noel

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Tue Sep 29 20:52:11 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:52:11 -0400
Subject: PDF for RT-11 V05.07 Release Notes
Message-ID: <560B404B.6010403@compsys.to>

This request is for Al Kossow.  However, if anyone else knows
where AA-5286M-TC is located as a PDF on the internet, it
would be appreciated.

I have downloaded the V05.06 PDF from one of the mirrors:
AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf

THANK  YOU very much for making this PDF available.

However, I don't see the V05.07 PDF of the RT-11 Release
Notes anywhere.  If there is a copy, could you please provide
the link?

I presumed that if it existed, that PDF file would have been at:

AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug98.pdf
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.7_Aug98/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug98.pdf

but that sub-directory does not exist.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, the RT-11 DOC set
manuals for V05.06 and V05.07 are IDENTICAL except for:
AA-5286L-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.06 of RT-11
which was dated August 1991 and
AA-5286M-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11
which was dated October 1998.

Does anyone else know if the V05.07 RT-11 Release Notes
manual is available as a PDF?  If so, could it be added to
the bitsavers mirrors?

Jerome Fine

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Tue Sep 29 20:56:30 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:56:30 -0400
Subject: Ping to Tim Shoppa
Message-ID: <560B414E.6090905@compsys.to>

This post is for Tim Shoppa.

This have seen your replies every so often on classiccmp, so you
don't seem to be totally out of touch.

If you are reading this, Alan Frisbie and I would appreciate
some help.

Allan can be reached at the address to which I sent a copy.

Jerome Fine

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 21:09:38 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:09:38 -0500
Subject: Ping to Tim Shoppa
In-Reply-To: <560B414E.6090905@compsys.to>
References: <560B414E.6090905@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20150930020938.GP94586@gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> This post is for Tim Shoppa.
> 
> This have seen your replies every so often on classiccmp, so you
> don't seem to be totally out of touch.
> 
> If you are reading this, Alan Frisbie and I would appreciate
> some help.
> 
> Allan can be reached at the address to which I sent a copy.

If you CCed someone, that seems to have been stripped by the mailing
list.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Tue Sep 29 21:45:39 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:45:39 -0400
Subject: Ping to Tim Shoppa
In-Reply-To: <20150930020938.GP94586@gmail.com>
References: <560B414E.6090905@compsys.to> <20150930020938.GP94586@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560B4CD3.7020400@compsys.to>

 >Eric Christopherson wrote:

>On Tue, Sep 29, 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>  
>
>>This post is for Tim Shoppa.
>>
>>This have seen your replies every so often on classiccmp, so you
>>don't seem to be totally out of touch.
>>
>>If you are reading this, Alan Frisbie and I would appreciate
>>some help.
>>
>>Allan can be reached at the address to which I sent a copy.
>>    
>>
>
>If you CCed someone, that seems to have been stripped by the mailing
>list.
>
I sent an e-mail directly to Tim this morning.  I have seen
replies from Tim in the past, so I know he must watch
these posts.

Has anyone located a PDF on the internet for the RT-11
Release Notes from the V05.07 DOC set in October 1998?

Jerome Fine

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Wed Sep 30 02:09:52 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 00:09:52 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4zmv2DRn=zzUbVs1av5RmNCTbdXuTuAbrSxhZvN-_uMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1C287A6D7EB3499183274CCC5E717940@TeoPC>
 <CAFjrmd4zmv2DRn=zzUbVs1av5RmNCTbdXuTuAbrSxhZvN-_uMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6EB@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

It seems you may be using two terms interchangeably that have different meanings. Leakage is parallel resistance  (DC) and ESR is series resistance (actually impedance so it is frequency dependent. Typically 120 Hz with a full wave bridge rectifier in front of it). 

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre .
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 12:11 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ESR Meter Recommendations

Ken,

I have two of the Atmega328 uC based 'swissknife' testers you mention, cost about $25 ea. on eBay, and have been exceptionally happy with them. They're a brilliant little piece of instrumentation, and IMHO no electronics hobbyist should be without one. For quick testing & ID of SS components, they're just the ticket.

Secondly, I have one of these units: http://midwestdevices.com/ - "Capacitor Wizard". They are also quite useful, and have some nice features like a quick-reading analog scale and audible indicator allowing you to set an ESR threshold and then test eyes-off the meter. This can be a real safety measure, if you're working deep inside a chassis. They are a bit overpriced for what you get, though, IMHO.

If you're mainly interested in testing for leakage in caps, and want to test them +at+ real working voltages, then you need a device like a Heathkit IT-28 or its Eico / Paco equivalent. Note that these are all "LCR bridges" with leakage test as an added feature. The Heath unit goes to 600V DC, not sure of the others.

Finally, there are the "in circuit capacitor checkers" made by Paco and possibly Heath / Eico. These are semi-useful, but in reality, they are pretty dang obsolete - and for some reason, folks pay a lot for them on eBay.. no idea why. Thing is, to really peg down any ESR trouble, you always need to disconnect one end anyway (in case of circuit loading or other fault) - so what's the real value of "in circuit" in that case?

HTH

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:34 PM, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Never used one on a power supply but for motherboard capacitors and 
> misc parts they work fine. For the price they are worth having around.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ken Seefried
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:24 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
>
> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the 
> market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for 
> the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay 
> is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers 
> all looking like:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/
> dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+
> meter
>
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
>
> KJ
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Sep 30 02:41:54 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:41:54 +0200
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150930074154.GA47273@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ken Seefried wrote:

> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
> market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
> the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
> is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
> all looking like:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter
> 
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
> 
> KJ

I own a old precise russian LCR Bridge and I have two of the modern
Atmega328 based "Transistor Testers" that both will do the job at least for
smaller capacitors, but I mostly use a simple homebuild ESR Meter like
this:
http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

I know, that isn't a precision device but it is what you mostly need: a
fast good/bad test solution.

Because of its small measuring voltage of approx 200mV PN junctions don't
get opened so that you can quick check electrolytics in the circuit w/o
desoldering them fist.
The used transformer in my case is a small ferrite transformer from an old
PC-PSU (driver circuit). I coud use it w/o to change anything.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 02:48:58 2015
From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 03:48:58 -0400
Subject: DEC handles
In-Reply-To: <20150930013611.26CAF18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930013611.26CAF18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <696911A8-0DBF-4288-9951-4E993989827E@gmail.com>

That works for me.

Joe


On Sep 29, 2015, at 9:36 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:

>> From: Joseph Lang
> 
>> How many do you want?
> 
> How many do I need, or how many do I want? :-)
> 
> I'm tempted to buy the whole bin (unless it's like a 55 gallon barrel :-),
> and hold onto them for other CCTalk people who need them.
> 
> Maybe this will work: if you find them, point them out to the store people,
> and tell them I'll call? Would that be the easiest thing for you?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
>    Noel

From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Sep 30 02:56:36 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:56:36 +0200
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20150930074154.GA47273@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150930074154.GA47273@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150930075636.GB47273@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Ken Seefried wrote:
> 
> > I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
> > market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
> > the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
> > is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
> > all looking like:
> > 
> > http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter
> > 
> > Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
> > 
> > KJ
> 
> I own a old precise russian LCR Bridge and I have two of the modern
> Atmega328 based "Transistor Testers" that both will do the job at least for
> smaller capacitors, but I mostly use a simple homebuild ESR Meter like
> this:
> http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html
> 
> I know, that isn't a precision device but it is what you mostly need: a
> fast good/bad test solution.
> 
> Because of its small measuring voltage of approx 200mV PN junctions don't
> get opened so that you can quick check electrolytics in the circuit w/o
> desoldering them fist.
> The used transformer in my case is a small ferrite transformer from an old
> PC-PSU (driver circuit). I coud use it w/o to change anything.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> -- 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfT9LEMbV4

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Wed Sep 30 05:39:49 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 03:39:49 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6EB@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1C287A6D7EB3499183274CCC5E717940@TeoPC>
 <CAFjrmd4zmv2DRn=zzUbVs1av5RmNCTbdXuTuAbrSxhZvN-_uMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6EB@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6ED@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

Just to clarify a little more (at the risk of being explaining things everyone already knows)...

In an ideal capacitor, after the capacitor has charged, all DC current is blocked. However, when applying a DC voltage to a real capacitor, some small current will continue to flow as electrons pass through the dielectric because the dielectric is not ideal.  So to model this using ideal components, we show a resistor in parallel to the capacitor that represents the amount of current that continues to flow even though the capacitor is supposed to be blocking. This modeled parallel resistor represents the leakage current. In this case, it is important to test at the working voltage of the circuit (which is usually lower than the working voltage of the capacitor itself with some margin of safety).  This is because the current through a resistor is dependent on the voltage across it.

Now, at AC, a capacitor will pass current and lead the voltage across it.  In an ideal capacitor, no power would be dissipated.  However, because it is not ideal, some power is dissipated. This dissipated power is represented by a series resistance.  Because an idealized circuit with a cap and a resistor in series will not pass DC current, this circuit must be tested at AC.  And the most accurate result will be achieved at the working frequency of the circuit, again, typically 120 Hz (or 2xline frequency).

I hope this helps someone
Eugene


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of W2HX
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 8:10 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: ESR Meter Recommendations

It seems you may be using two terms interchangeably that have different meanings. Leakage is parallel resistance  (DC) and ESR is series resistance (actually impedance so it is frequency dependent. Typically 120 Hz with a full wave bridge rectifier in front of it). 

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre .
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 12:11 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ESR Meter Recommendations

Ken,

I have two of the Atmega328 uC based 'swissknife' testers you mention, cost about $25 ea. on eBay, and have been exceptionally happy with them. They're a brilliant little piece of instrumentation, and IMHO no electronics hobbyist should be without one. For quick testing & ID of SS components, they're just the ticket.

Secondly, I have one of these units: http://midwestdevices.com/ - "Capacitor Wizard". They are also quite useful, and have some nice features like a quick-reading analog scale and audible indicator allowing you to set an ESR threshold and then test eyes-off the meter. This can be a real safety measure, if you're working deep inside a chassis. They are a bit overpriced for what you get, though, IMHO.

If you're mainly interested in testing for leakage in caps, and want to test them +at+ real working voltages, then you need a device like a Heathkit IT-28 or its Eico / Paco equivalent. Note that these are all "LCR bridges" with leakage test as an added feature. The Heath unit goes to 600V DC, not sure of the others.

Finally, there are the "in circuit capacitor checkers" made by Paco and possibly Heath / Eico. These are semi-useful, but in reality, they are pretty dang obsolete - and for some reason, folks pay a lot for them on eBay.. no idea why. Thing is, to really peg down any ESR trouble, you always need to disconnect one end anyway (in case of circuit loading or other fault) - so what's the real value of "in circuit" in that case?

HTH

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:34 PM, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Never used one on a power supply but for motherboard capacitors and 
> misc parts they work fine. For the price they are worth having around.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ken Seefried
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:24 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
>
> I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the 
> market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for 
> the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay 
> is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers 
> all looking like:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/
> dp/B00NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+
> meter
>
> Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?
>
> KJ
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 30 06:48:54 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 07:48:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
Message-ID: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    From: Eugene (W2HX)

    > to model this using ideal components, we show a resistor in parallel to
    > the capacitor ... This modeled parallel resistor represents the leakage
    > current.
    > ...
    > because it is not ideal, some power is dissipated. This dissipated
    > power is represented by a series resistance. Because an idealized
    > circuit with a cap and a resistor in series will not pass DC current,
    > this circuit must be tested at AC.

So I'm slightly confused; you talk about the model being a parallel resistor
(which I get), but then switch to a series resistor. Why the switch?

	Noel

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 30 07:06:05 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:06:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <201509301206.IAA11302@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> to model this using ideal components, [...]
> So I'm slightly confused; you talk about the model being a parallel
> resistor (which I get), but then switch to a series resistor.  Why
> the switch?

The two resistors model two different ways in which a capacitor is not
ideal.  The parallel resistor models DC leakage; the series resistor
models losses in AC current through the capacitor.

The term "ESR" refers to only the second one; it stands for, IIRC,
Equivalent Series Resistance.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 30 07:45:56 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:45:56 +0100
Subject: PDP8 Front panels
Message-ID: <560BD984.8010601@btinternet.com>

Hi Guys
           I think we are all set. The plexiglass blanks are at the silk 
screeners.
           The artwork for five different PDP-8 front panels is done.

           If all those who elected to wait even though prepaid would 
please  request  the latest file with all five designs in.
           The same goes for anybody who is interested in replacement 
panels for  PDP8/e (both types of switch markings)
           PDP8/f , PDP8/m or industrial8. please contact me by email

          The 8/f and 8/m will be a few dollars more as we need an extra 
screen for the logos as they are colour as opposed to the 8/e which is 
white.

           If anybody spots an error on my part in any of the drawings 
please let me know.
           If you have any scanned images as opposed to photographs I'd 
love a copy.

           Regards
           Rod Smallwood



-- 
Wanted : KDJ11-E     M8981
                 KK8-E         M8300
                 KK8-E         M8310
                 KK8-E         M8320
                 KK8-E         M8330

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 09:31:22 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:31:22 +0200
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG7EXgeE44980BjQy7ZFTbGC-7hOsC-wwLHVmVQPo+fqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 September 2015 at 19:06, SPC <spedraja at ono.com> wrote:
> Very interesting. I must do an end-of-training project this year involving
> Rapsberry Pi devices. Perhaps I'll give it a try.


I just ordered a Pi 2, fitted inside a modified replacement keyboard
for a ZX Spectrum that I found when packing up my house before leaving
the UK. It's required a little bit of case modification to the
keyboard, which is a slightly shame, but it was not particularly
valuable and I have no other use for it.

The keyboard is one of these:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/12269/LMT-68FX2-Keyboard-for-the-Spectrum/

And the conversion was done by Tynemouth Software:

http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/

Dave Curran of Tynemouth refurbishes dead 8-bits either as USB
keyboards for modern computers, or fits RasPis into them to bring them
back to life.

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/TynemouthSoftware


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From jrr at flippers.com  Wed Sep 30 09:10:20 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 07:10:20 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>

On 09/29/2015 2:59 PM, Jay West wrote:
> This is the one I have used for years.....
>
> http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm
>
> About $88 USD
>
> J
>
>
>
>
That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith 
ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until 
the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the 
Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all 
use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.

If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, 
or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of 
the pond.

I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's 
ESR meter kit since 1999!

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed Sep 30 09:14:57 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:14:57 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>

John wrote....
----
That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.

If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of the pond.

I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's ESR meter kit since 1999!
----
That is great info, thanks!

Question - I could be mistaken, but I think someone mentioned that these were not good for testing caps that had a higher operating voltage. Is that correct? My understanding was that the testing method used by this ESR meter was valid for most all the large electrolytics...?

J



From echristopherson at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 09:55:54 2015
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:55:54 -0500
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG7EXgeE44980BjQy7ZFTbGC-7hOsC-wwLHVmVQPo+fqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG7EXgeE44980BjQy7ZFTbGC-7hOsC-wwLHVmVQPo+fqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93DjT9eyB66qY2gzJkb6EhFo+G5h29j9nBhN8t2N71vMUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 September 2015 at 19:06, SPC <spedraja at ono.com> wrote:
>> Very interesting. I must do an end-of-training project this year involving
>> Rapsberry Pi devices. Perhaps I'll give it a try.
>
>
> I just ordered a Pi 2, fitted inside a modified replacement keyboard
> for a ZX Spectrum that I found when packing up my house before leaving
> the UK. It's required a little bit of case modification to the
> keyboard, which is a slightly shame, but it was not particularly
> valuable and I have no other use for it.
>
> The keyboard is one of these:
>
> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/12269/LMT-68FX2-Keyboard-for-the-Spectrum/

That's cool; but that is the strangest layout I've seen for arrow keys.

>
> And the conversion was done by Tynemouth Software:
>
> http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/
>
> Dave Curran of Tynemouth refurbishes dead 8-bits either as USB
> keyboards for modern computers, or fits RasPis into them to bring them
> back to life.
>
> https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/TynemouthSoftware

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 10:02:37 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:02:37 +0200
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93DjT9eyB66qY2gzJkb6EhFo+G5h29j9nBhN8t2N71vMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG7EXgeE44980BjQy7ZFTbGC-7hOsC-wwLHVmVQPo+fqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93DjT9eyB66qY2gzJkb6EhFo+G5h29j9nBhN8t2N71vMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHq4TXXFNxrMHxw8Cy9-QAJrROn56y5jSMgDvRHZQ+9kg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 September 2015 at 16:55, Eric Christopherson
<echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The keyboard is one of these:
>>
>> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/12269/LMT-68FX2-Keyboard-for-the-Spectrum/
>
> That's cool; but that is the strangest layout I've seen for arrow keys.


Yes, as I recall, it took a *lot* of getting used to, and never was great.

However, the keyboard was /massively/ better than the rubber-key
Spectrum, famously one of the worst keyboards ever made.

Which is why I'm mystified that people are now painstakingly
recreating the thing. You can buy a Bluetooth version now:

http://sinclair.recreatedzxspectrum.com/

And a cut-down miniaturised one with an ARM-based emulator inside:

http://retro-computers.co.uk/



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From dave at willomail.co.uk  Wed Sep 30 10:02:53 2015
From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:02:53 +0100
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93DjT9eyB66qY2gzJkb6EhFo+G5h29j9nBhN8t2N71vMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFf0B5MsOF6Emm9o+=2URO2vFEHUp=frt0S9X3EWpA2Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF8NVSrMbBH1E70Xpd_1aEyL+cOe2R3XkgCGpkvNXaGi+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG7EXgeE44980BjQy7ZFTbGC-7hOsC-wwLHVmVQPo+fqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADyB93DjT9eyB66qY2gzJkb6EhFo+G5h29j9nBhN8t2N71vMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560BF99D.7010809@willomail.co.uk>


On 30/09/2015 15:55, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> ://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/12269/LMT-68FX2-Keyboard-for-the-Spectrum/ 
>
> That's cool; but that is the strangest layout I've seen for arrow keys.
>
This is a case for a ZX Spectrum. When it comes to anything Sinclair, 
strange is the norm!  :)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Sep 30 10:08:22 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:08:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
Message-ID: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Liam Proven

I am _very much_ in sympathy with the complaints here; I too feel that modern
computers are too complex, etc. (Although some of it, like the entire computer
turning into a single chip, were/are inevitable/unavoidable.)

I like the functionality of modern system, but I feel they are _more complex
than they need to be_ to generate that level of functionality.

However, one thing I am going to quibble with:

    > This is a nice explanatory quote:

    >  The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
    >  ring-0-only .. Linux wants to be a secure, multi-user mainframe. ...
    >  It was simple, open and hackable. It was not networked. ... It was
						^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >  simple and unsecure. If you don't have malware and you don't have
    >  bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the code complicated.

Note the part I highlighted. If you want to have a system that's
network-capable, which is pretty much mandatory for a _really_ usable system
in this day and age, i) that means Web-capable, and ii) if it's Web-capable
today, it has to be able to handle what I dub 'active content' (JavaScript,
etc) - i.e. content coming off the network which contains code, which runs in
the local machine.

To paraphrase a certain well-known SF work, IMO active content is probably the
worst idea since humans' fore-fathers crawled out of the mud. It's
_potentially_ a giant, gaping security hole - one that in today's OS's is
responsible for a huge share of security issues. (There _is_ a way to have
systems which aren't as vulnerable, but it means having military-grade
security on everyone's machine - and no, I don't mean crypto; probably not
likely, alas.) I mourn the early days of the Web, when there was no active
content - just text, images, etc, etc. But no, they had to add all sorts of
flashy eye candy - and did so in a way that makes basically all modern
machines horribly insecure. But let me dispense with the soap box...

Anyway, the inevitable consequence is that if you want a networked machine,
it's _not_ going to be simple. Alas.

You're basically sharing the machine with _lots_ of other people -
effectively, every Tom, Dick and Jane out there in the Internet. In other
words, you need everything one normally saw/sees in a time-sharing machine.
(And I'm not talking about wimpy ones like Unix/Linux. I mean industrial
strength ones like Multics.)

	Noel

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Sep 30 10:38:04 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:38:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Active content [was Re: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the
 old days of comprehensible computers]
In-Reply-To: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <201509301538.LAA11244@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> If you want to have a system that's network-capable, which is pretty
> much mandatory for a _really_ usable system in this day and age, i)
> that means Web-capable, and ii) if it's Web-capable today, it has to
> be able to handle what I dub 'active content' (JavaScript, etc) -
> i.e. content coming off the network which contains code, which runs
> in the local machine.

Fortunately, neither part of that is actually true, unless you swallow
today's mass-market propaganda that the Web is the Internet and the
Internet is the Web, the Web is the One True Interface for anyone to
anything, that the world is divided into content producers (large
companies) and content consumers (end users), and that the consumer is
obliged to tolerate whatever crap the producer feels like inflicting.

As a refutation to part (i), I offer two of the computers on my desk
today.  I don't know whether they're Web-capable, because I've never
even tried to do anything Web with either one (I know they're
HTTP-capable, but it's an abuse of HTTP, since it's used to transport
config files rather than hypertext, and is not the Web).  As I have
them configured, they speak SIP, RTP, FTP, and SNTP, and I think that's
it.  I find them highly useful.  (Well, one of them's broken at the
moment, but before it broke....)

As a refutation to part (ii), I point out that what little Web I do I
do with lynx, which (as I have it set up) does not support any kind of
active content - and I want it that way.

Perhaps you feel you "need" to do things that can't be done within that
paradigm.  If so, this is because of your idea of "usable", which not
everyone shares.

> To paraphrase a certain well-known SF work, IMO active content is
> probably the worst idea since humans' fore-fathers crawled out of the
> mud.

I agree.  That's why I will have no truck with it.

> I mourn the early days of the Web, when there was no active content -
> just text, images, etc, etc.

You can still live there, if you're willing to.  I am - and, watching
over others' shoulders, I believe I am far happier this way than I
would be if I had the likes of Facebook and YouTube infesting my
"experience".  (I do wish I could find a copy of Mosaic source,
though.)

Of course, like everything, it comes at a price.  I find that price far
lower than the prices that would be involved in putting up with today's
mass-market Web.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Wed Sep 30 13:24:02 2015
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:24:02 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>

Essentially these are two different measurements meant to measure a different property of the capacitor. Capacitors have many properties, many we know such as capacitance, working voltage, temp coefficient, etc. Add to that list both leakage current (parallel resistance) and ESR (series resistance). They tell you different things about the capacitor's behavior.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Eugene

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 12:49 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: ESR Meter Recommendations

    From: Eugene (W2HX)

    > to model this using ideal components, we show a resistor in parallel to
    > the capacitor ... This modeled parallel resistor represents the leakage
    > current.
    > ...
    > because it is not ideal, some power is dissipated. This dissipated
    > power is represented by a series resistance. Because an idealized
    > circuit with a cap and a resistor in series will not pass DC current,
    > this circuit must be tested at AC.

So I'm slightly confused; you talk about the model being a parallel resistor (which I get), but then switch to a series resistor. Why the switch?

	Noel

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Sep 30 14:31:52 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:31:52 -0600
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
References: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
Message-ID: <560C38A8.7080702@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 9/30/2015 12:24 PM, W2HX wrote:
> Essentially these are two different measurements meant to measure a
> different property of the capacitor. Capacitors have many properties,
> many we know such as capacitance, working voltage, temp coefficient,
> etc. Add to that list both leakage current (parallel resistance) and
> ESR (series resistance). They tell you different things about the
> capacitor's behavior.
>
> Hope this helps. Regards Eugene
Unless he's testing a flux capacitor...
  roll that bench to 88 miles an hour
Ben.


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 14:39:01 2015
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:39:01 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560C38A8.7080702@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20150930114854.6384D18C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <ACBC68AC7928FA4FB768DFB3FDD641AC44D3C7E6F5@ex-be-032-sv1.shared.themessagecenter.com>
 <560C38A8.7080702@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CANV78LQt9+8rCqtzMgsEZUUAegVYU8AA_QnFa8AKOPPNTy9=Gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 12:31 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:

> On 9/30/2015 12:24 PM, W2HX wrote:
>
>> Essentially these are two different measurements meant to measure a
>> different property of the capacitor. Capacitors have many properties,
>> many we know such as capacitance, working voltage, temp coefficient,
>> etc. Add to that list both leakage current (parallel resistance) and
>> ESR (series resistance). They tell you different things about the
>> capacitor's behavior.
>>
>> Hope this helps. Regards Eugene
>>
> Unless he's testing a flux capacitor...
>  roll that bench to 88 miles an hour



Since they made 3 of them, we can conclude that flux capacitors have low
ESR, yes?

-- Charles

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 15:13:30 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:13:30 +0200
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 September 2015 at 17:08, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

> I am _very much_ in sympathy with the complaints here; I too feel that modern
> computers are too complex, etc. (Although some of it, like the entire computer
> turning into a single chip, were/are inevitable/unavoidable.)

Indeed so.

> I like the functionality of modern system, but I feel they are _more complex
> than they need to be_ to generate that level of functionality.

Absolutely -- and there is a *lot* of legacy stuff that we could do
away with now.

Even though I'm a former Red Hat employee, I have long favoured
Ubuntu. Fedora's always been way too bleeding-edge for me. However, I
approve of one change they made recently: they've merged /bin into
/usr/bin and /usr/sbin into /usr/sbin. I think they're merging
/usr/sbin and /usr/bin as well. The argument is that the root
filesystem is huge anyway, and there's no longer any benefit to having
them separated, the distinction not being clear in any case.

> However, one thing I am going to quibble with:
>
>     > This is a nice explanatory quote:
>
>     >  The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
>     >  ring-0-only .. Linux wants to be a secure, multi-user mainframe. ...
>     >  It was simple, open and hackable. It was not networked. ... It was
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     >  simple and unsecure. If you don't have malware and you don't have
>     >  bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the code complicated.
>
> Note the part I highlighted. If you want to have a system that's
> network-capable, which is pretty much mandatory for a _really_ usable system
> in this day and age, i) that means Web-capable, and ii) if it's Web-capable
> today, it has to be able to handle what I dub 'active content' (JavaScript,
> etc) - i.e. content coming off the network which contains code, which runs in
> the local machine.

Mere point of reference: Acorn RISC OS still has a small active user
community. Its primary native web browsers, Oregano and NetSurf, don't
have a document object model and don't run Javascript. There's an
elderly port of Firefox but it's not maintained or current -- the hero
developer of the RISC OS Unix porting tools got a job in the states
and had to abandon the project, and in the insular world of RISC OS,
nobody else really understands the importance of it.

So, the old-fashioned pre-Web 2.0 WWW is still useful. More than you
might expect.

> To paraphrase a certain well-known SF work, IMO active content is probably the
> worst idea since humans' fore-fathers crawled out of the mud.

Just out of curiosity -- who? I can't place it.

> It's
> _potentially_ a giant, gaping security hole - one that in today's OS's is
> responsible for a huge share of security issues. (There _is_ a way to have
> systems which aren't as vulnerable, but it means having military-grade
> security on everyone's machine - and no, I don't mean crypto; probably not
> likely, alas.) I mourn the early days of the Web, when there was no active
> content - just text, images, etc, etc. But no, they had to add all sorts of
> flashy eye candy - and did so in a way that makes basically all modern
> machines horribly insecure. But let me dispense with the soap box...

All agreed with!

But OTOH a machine whose lowest level isn't a C-like language is in
principle immune to buffer overflows, stack-smashing, etc.

> Anyway, the inevitable consequence is that if you want a networked machine,
> it's _not_ going to be simple. Alas.

Conceded.

> You're basically sharing the machine with _lots_ of other people -
> effectively, every Tom, Dick and Jane out there in the Internet. In other
> words, you need everything one normally saw/sees in a time-sharing machine.
> (And I'm not talking about wimpy ones like Unix/Linux. I mean industrial
> strength ones like Multics.)

:-)



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Sep 30 16:20:36 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 16:20:36 -0500
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560C5224.8060801@charter.net>

On 9/30/2015 3:13 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 30 September 2015 at 17:08, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> I am _very much_ in sympathy with the complaints here; I too feel that modern
>> computers are too complex, etc. (Although some of it, like the entire computer
>> turning into a single chip, were/are inevitable/unavoidable.)
> 
> Indeed so.
> 
>> I like the functionality of modern system, but I feel they are _more complex
>> than they need to be_ to generate that level of functionality.
> 
> Absolutely -- and there is a *lot* of legacy stuff that we could do
> away with now.
> 
> Even though I'm a former Red Hat employee, I have long favoured
> Ubuntu. Fedora's always been way too bleeding-edge for me. However, I
> approve of one change they made recently: they've merged /bin into
> /usr/bin and /usr/sbin into /usr/sbin. I think they're merging
> /usr/sbin and /usr/bin as well. The argument is that the root
> filesystem is huge anyway, and there's no longer any benefit to having
> them separated, the distinction not being clear in any case.
> 

I generally agree about the distros - the issue for me wasn't so much
that Fedora is "bleeding edge" but more that patch support only lasts
around a year, as compared to Ubuntu LTS.

As for the directories, some of what you wrote confused me a little
(e.g. and /usr/sbin into /usr/sbin seems to be a NOP.  ;)  I suspect
/sbin was supposed to appear in there somewhere...  ).

Anyway, there was more to this than just the location of the
directories.  The original idea of the "sbin" directories that they were
only in root's path, and not in the path of ordinary users.  So one
side-effect of this change will be commands that used to be less visible
to ordinary users (and their command completion) will now be visible.
Also, historically, /bin was that which was necessary for the system to
boot and run - predates even the existence of the sbins.

They had also better make sure that they put in links from the
"deprecated" directories to where the stuff actually ended up, or they
will break *tons* of shell scripts.

Finally, I expect this will break a *ton* of ./configure scripts for
software installation.

Overall, I am not so sure this is such a great idea.

JRJ

From chrise at pobox.com  Wed Sep 30 13:35:39 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:35:39 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>

On Wednesday (09/30/2015 at 10:54AM -0700), John Robertson wrote:
> 
> As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives useful
> readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close to
> zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...

And that seems to be the usual situation for most ESR meters.  How are
folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
these old machines?

One approach I use has been to isolate the supply and then fire it up
with an electronic load while looking at voltage sag and ripple on a
scope while that load is swept from min to max capability of the supply.

There is also the Sencore LC53 "Z Meter" which can test large caps up
to 200,000 uF out of circuit but these are typically a $400+ instrument
on the used market. 

http://bama.edebris.com/download/sencore/lc53/LC53%20OPS.pdf

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist N?JCF


From jrr at flippers.com  Wed Sep 30 11:51:07 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:51:07 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <560C12FB.7040007@flippers.com>

On 09/30/2015 7:14 AM, Jay West wrote:
> John wrote....
> ----
> That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.
>
> If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of the pond.
>
> I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's ESR meter kit since 1999!
> ----
> That is great info, thanks!
>
> Question - I could be mistaken, but I think someone mentioned that these were not good for testing caps that had a higher operating voltage. Is that correct? My understanding was that the testing method used by this ESR meter was valid for most all the large electrolytics...?
>
> J
>
>
>
>
The only caveat is to discharge the capacitor first before testing. The 
meter does not like anything over 50VDC across the probes...tends to let 
the smoke out.

You can use the Blue ESR meter to check the internal resistance of 
batteries - I suspect one could use that info to build a chart of 
remaining life in a lead acid battery or ni-cad, but I never tried that.

Link for some background info:

http://flippers.com/BlueEsr.html

Sales...

http://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/blue-meter-p-2

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 30 12:32:17 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:32:17 -0400
Subject: Active content [was Re: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to
 the old days of comprehensible computers]
In-Reply-To: <201509301538.LAA11244@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <201509301538.LAA11244@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV1EOC1ywya71kzGRwsTy_+OSvG3ZyAQRWLVbWATinsOw@mail.gmail.com>

Plus a million. You can still view my personal page and get the full
experience in Netscape 2.0, Mosaic and so forth :O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

> > If you want to have a system that's network-capable, which is pretty
> > much mandatory for a _really_ usable system in this day and age, i)
> > that means Web-capable, and ii) if it's Web-capable today, it has to
> > be able to handle what I dub 'active content' (JavaScript, etc) -
> > i.e. content coming off the network which contains code, which runs
> > in the local machine.
>
> Fortunately, neither part of that is actually true, unless you swallow
> today's mass-market propaganda that the Web is the Internet and the
> Internet is the Web, the Web is the One True Interface for anyone to
> anything, that the world is divided into content producers (large
> companies) and content consumers (end users), and that the consumer is
> obliged to tolerate whatever crap the producer feels like inflicting.
>
> As a refutation to part (i), I offer two of the computers on my desk
> today.  I don't know whether they're Web-capable, because I've never
> even tried to do anything Web with either one (I know they're
> HTTP-capable, but it's an abuse of HTTP, since it's used to transport
> config files rather than hypertext, and is not the Web).  As I have
> them configured, they speak SIP, RTP, FTP, and SNTP, and I think that's
> it.  I find them highly useful.  (Well, one of them's broken at the
> moment, but before it broke....)
>
> As a refutation to part (ii), I point out that what little Web I do I
> do with lynx, which (as I have it set up) does not support any kind of
> active content - and I want it that way.
>
> Perhaps you feel you "need" to do things that can't be done within that
> paradigm.  If so, this is because of your idea of "usable", which not
> everyone shares.
>
> > To paraphrase a certain well-known SF work, IMO active content is
> > probably the worst idea since humans' fore-fathers crawled out of the
> > mud.
>
> I agree.  That's why I will have no truck with it.
>
> > I mourn the early days of the Web, when there was no active content -
> > just text, images, etc, etc.
>
> You can still live there, if you're willing to.  I am - and, watching
> over others' shoulders, I believe I am far happier this way than I
> would be if I had the likes of Facebook and YouTube infesting my
> "experience".  (I do wish I could find a copy of Mosaic source,
> though.)
>
> Of course, like everything, it comes at a price.  I find that price far
> lower than the prices that would be involved in putting up with today's
> mass-market Web.
>
> /~\ The ASCII                             Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML                mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 30 12:40:21 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:40:21 -0400
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX+T_nqD5sAFGp9juYW3JcbVTVNzypw+pXVTSPAmKjCZQ@mail.gmail.com>

You can still have a useful machine without it being connected to the
public Internet. Network access is indeed very important, Internet
connectivity, less so.

I too rue the loss of simplicity ... and this has been voiced by many
people much more luminous than I ... Ken Thompson, for one, has commented
about the size and complexity in contemporary UNIX implementations ... This
is one reason why I love Plan 9 so much ... it takes you back a little bit
to when it was a pleasure to bang out a little code and you don't have to
deal with so much nonsense to get a little application that actually does
something, built.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Liam Proven
>
> I am _very much_ in sympathy with the complaints here; I too feel that
> modern
> computers are too complex, etc. (Although some of it, like the entire
> computer
> turning into a single chip, were/are inevitable/unavoidable.)
>
> I like the functionality of modern system, but I feel they are _more
> complex
> than they need to be_ to generate that level of functionality.
>
> However, one thing I am going to quibble with:
>
>     > This is a nice explanatory quote:
>
>     >  The main reasons TempleOS is simple and beautiful are because it's
>     >  ring-0-only .. Linux wants to be a secure, multi-user mainframe. ...
>     >  It was simple, open and hackable. It was not networked. ... It was
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     >  simple and unsecure. If you don't have malware and you don't have
>     >  bugs, protection just slows things down and makes the code
> complicated.
>
> Note the part I highlighted. If you want to have a system that's
> network-capable, which is pretty much mandatory for a _really_ usable
> system
> in this day and age, i) that means Web-capable, and ii) if it's Web-capable
> today, it has to be able to handle what I dub 'active content' (JavaScript,
> etc) - i.e. content coming off the network which contains code, which runs
> in
> the local machine.
>
> To paraphrase a certain well-known SF work, IMO active content is probably
> the
> worst idea since humans' fore-fathers crawled out of the mud. It's
> _potentially_ a giant, gaping security hole - one that in today's OS's is
> responsible for a huge share of security issues. (There _is_ a way to have
> systems which aren't as vulnerable, but it means having military-grade
> security on everyone's machine - and no, I don't mean crypto; probably not
> likely, alas.) I mourn the early days of the Web, when there was no active
> content - just text, images, etc, etc. But no, they had to add all sorts of
> flashy eye candy - and did so in a way that makes basically all modern
> machines horribly insecure. But let me dispense with the soap box...
>
> Anyway, the inevitable consequence is that if you want a networked machine,
> it's _not_ going to be simple. Alas.
>
> You're basically sharing the machine with _lots_ of other people -
> effectively, every Tom, Dick and Jane out there in the Internet. In other
> words, you need everything one normally saw/sees in a time-sharing machine.
> (And I'm not talking about wimpy ones like Unix/Linux. I mean industrial
> strength ones like Multics.)
>
>         Noel
>

From jrr at flippers.com  Wed Sep 30 12:54:07 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:54:07 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com>

On 09/30/2015 7:14 AM, Jay West wrote:
> John wrote....
> ----
> That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.
>
> If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of the pond.
>
> I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's ESR meter kit since 1999!
> ----
> That is great info, thanks!
>
> Question - I could be mistaken, but I think someone mentioned that these were not good for testing caps that had a higher operating voltage. Is that correct? My understanding was that the testing method used by this ESR meter was valid for most all the large electrolytics...?
>
> J
>
>

As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives 
useful readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too 
close to zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...

One other unmentioned (I keep forgetting to add it to the list) benefit 
to the meter is it does read down to 0.01 ohms which can be handy when 
looking for shorts.

Blue ESR Kit Manual:

https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/BlueESR.pdf

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From mtapley at swri.edu  Wed Sep 30 16:09:44 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:09:44 +0000
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <D2029E19-A5B2-4D32-8855-F450D028513F@swri.edu>

I can put in another vote of confidence for this one. I have one from Portugal (because I didn?t know about the this-side-of-the-pond source) and it works as advertised.
					- Mark


On Sep 30, 2015, at 12:54 PM, John Robertson <jrr at flippers.com> wrote:

> On 09/30/2015 7:14 AM, Jay West wrote:
>> John wrote....
>> ----
>> That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.
>> 
>> If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of the pond.
>> 
>> I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's ESR meter kit since 1999!
>> ----
>> That is great info, thanks!
>> 
>> Question - I could be mistaken, but I think someone mentioned that these were not good for testing caps that had a higher operating voltage. Is that correct? My understanding was that the testing method used by this ESR meter was valid for most all the large electrolytics...?
>> 
>> J
>> 
>> 
> 
> As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives useful readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close to zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...
> 
> One other unmentioned (I keep forgetting to add it to the list) benefit to the meter is it does read down to 0.01 ohms which can be handy when looking for shorts.
> 
> Blue ESR Kit Manual:
> 
> https://www.flippers.com/pdfs/BlueESR.pdf
> 
> John :-#)#
> 
> -- 
> John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
> Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
>                 www.flippers.com
> "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
> 


From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 30 16:50:35 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:50:35 -0400
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <560C5224.8060801@charter.net>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <560C5224.8060801@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV0Ec+2M76MZEKyghc77+k+QNUqgAZdsjPC2jfpB9qxpw@mail.gmail.com>

Just the whole idea of so many Linux distributions makes me bang my head
against the coffee table. One thing I greatly admire about the *BSD
projects has been the strong arm of unification, all contributors are
working towards one goal... It just so happened that Linux was the "free
UNIX that took off" (just like i386 was the "architecture that won") and we
have to live with the repercussions of that in IT ops every day for better
or for worse ... But that's just my two cents and no more ... I know this
topic can get religious! :O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> On 9/30/2015 3:13 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> > On 30 September 2015 at 17:08, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I am _very much_ in sympathy with the complaints here; I too feel that
> modern
> >> computers are too complex, etc. (Although some of it, like the entire
> computer
> >> turning into a single chip, were/are inevitable/unavoidable.)
> >
> > Indeed so.
> >
> >> I like the functionality of modern system, but I feel they are _more
> complex
> >> than they need to be_ to generate that level of functionality.
> >
> > Absolutely -- and there is a *lot* of legacy stuff that we could do
> > away with now.
> >
> > Even though I'm a former Red Hat employee, I have long favoured
> > Ubuntu. Fedora's always been way too bleeding-edge for me. However, I
> > approve of one change they made recently: they've merged /bin into
> > /usr/bin and /usr/sbin into /usr/sbin. I think they're merging
> > /usr/sbin and /usr/bin as well. The argument is that the root
> > filesystem is huge anyway, and there's no longer any benefit to having
> > them separated, the distinction not being clear in any case.
> >
>
> I generally agree about the distros - the issue for me wasn't so much
> that Fedora is "bleeding edge" but more that patch support only lasts
> around a year, as compared to Ubuntu LTS.
>
> As for the directories, some of what you wrote confused me a little
> (e.g. and /usr/sbin into /usr/sbin seems to be a NOP.  ;)  I suspect
> /sbin was supposed to appear in there somewhere...  ).
>
> Anyway, there was more to this than just the location of the
> directories.  The original idea of the "sbin" directories that they were
> only in root's path, and not in the path of ordinary users.  So one
> side-effect of this change will be commands that used to be less visible
> to ordinary users (and their command completion) will now be visible.
> Also, historically, /bin was that which was necessary for the system to
> boot and run - predates even the existence of the sbins.
>
> They had also better make sure that they put in links from the
> "deprecated" directories to where the stuff actually ended up, or they
> will break *tons* of shell scripts.
>
> Finally, I expect this will break a *ton* of ./configure scripts for
> software installation.
>
> Overall, I am not so sure this is such a great idea.
>
> JRJ
>

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Sep 30 17:27:53 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:27:53 -0400
Subject: PDF for RT-11 V05.07 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <560B404B.6010403@compsys.to>
References: <560B404B.6010403@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <560C61E9.80703@compsys.to>

 >Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> This request is for Al Kossow.  However, if anyone else knows
> where AA-5286M-TC is located as a PDF on the internet, it
> would be appreciated.
>
> I have downloaded the V05.06 PDF from one of the mirrors:
> AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf 
>
>
> THANK  YOU very much for making this PDF available.
>
> However, I don't see the V05.07 PDF of the RT-11 Release
> Notes anywhere.  If there is a copy, could you please provide
> the link?
>
> I presumed that if it existed, that PDF file would have been at:
>
> AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_V5.7_Release_Notes_Oct98.pdf
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.7_Oct98/AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_V5.7_Release_Notes_Oct98.pdf 
>
>
> but that sub-directory does not exist.
>
> As I have mentioned in a previous post, the RT-11 DOC set
> manuals for V05.06 and V05.07 are IDENTICAL except for:
> AA-5286L-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.06 of RT-11
> which was dated August 1991 and
> AA-5286M-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11
> which was dated October 1998.
>
> Does anyone else know if the V05.07 RT-11 Release Notes
> manual is available as a PDF?  If so, could it be added to
> the bitsavers mirrors?

Check

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Sep 30 17:36:39 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:36:39 -0400
Subject: PDF for RT-11 V05.07 Release Notes
In-Reply-To: <560C61E9.80703@compsys.to>
References: <560B404B.6010403@compsys.to> <560C61E9.80703@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <560C63F7.80209@compsys.to>

 >Jerome H. Fine wrote:

>> This request is for Al Kossow.  However, if anyone else knows
>> where AA-5286M-TC is located as a PDF on the internet, it
>> would be appreciated.
>>
>> I have downloaded the V05.06 PDF from one of the mirrors:
>> AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf 
>>
>>
>> THANK  YOU very much for making this PDF available.
>>
>> However, I don't see the V05.07 PDF of the RT-11 Release
>> Notes anywhere.  If there is a copy, could you please provide
>> the link?
>>
>> I presumed that if it existed, that PDF file would have been at:
>>
>> AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_V5.7_Release_Notes_Oct98.pdf
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.7_Oct98/AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_V5.7_Release_Notes_Oct98.pdf 
>>
>>
>> but that sub-directory does not exist.
>>
>> As I have mentioned in a previous post, the RT-11 DOC set
>> manuals for V05.06 and V05.07 are IDENTICAL except for:
>> AA-5286L-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.06 of RT-11
>> which was dated August 1991 and
>> AA-5286M-TC  RT-11 Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11
>> which was dated October 1998.
>>
>> Does anyone else know if the V05.07 RT-11 Release Notes
>> manual is available as a PDF?  If so, could it be added to
>> the bitsavers mirrors?
>
I have corrected the name of the PDF file and the link for the V05.07
RT-11 Release Notes.  BUT I did not correct the text when I attempted
to send myself the e-mail to be sure that the link was correct.

Al  Kossow JUST received the new PDF file for the V05.07  RT-11
Release Notes and placed them on the web site.  OR, perhaps Tim
Shoppa placed them on the mirror for bitsavers.

In any case, the new PDF file name and the link are correct, the file
is NOW there and can be downloaded.

Jerome Fine

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Sep 30 17:42:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:42:05 -0700
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkV0Ec+2M76MZEKyghc77+k+QNUqgAZdsjPC2jfpB9qxpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <560C5224.8060801@charter.net>
 <CAA43vkV0Ec+2M76MZEKyghc77+k+QNUqgAZdsjPC2jfpB9qxpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com>

On 09/30/2015 02:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Just the whole idea of so many Linux distributions makes me bang my
> head against the coffee table. One thing I greatly admire about the
> *BSD projects has been the strong arm of unification, all
> contributors are working towards one goal... It just so happened that
> Linux was the "free UNIX that took off" (just like i386 was the
> "architecture that won") and we have to live with the repercussions
> of that in IT ops every day for better or for worse ... But that's
> just my two cents and no more ... I know this topic can get
> religious! :O

I find that most of the difference between Linuces lies in the GUI, not 
in the "guts" of the system.  Many, if not, most use a Debian-based 
kernel with other stuff bolted on--and even that's not cast in Sakrete. 
  I'm sitting at a system now running Ubuntu with the XFCE desktop (I 
can't stand Unity).  At the command-line level, there's little that's 
substantially different among Linuces.

Anent BSD, you'll find considerable differences in approaches to OpenBSD 
compared with FreeBSD.  OpenBSD is conservative to the point of being 
almost paranoid, an approach I greatly admire.  OpenBSD management seems 
to despise virtualization in any form, so no Wine for you, much less 
VirtualBox.  Ftp is not officially supported, etc.  Compared to OpenBSD, 
FreeBSD is a painted whore.

It's been a long time since I've updated my systems with NetBSD, so it's 
hard to say much there.

Linux is getting to be (or has gotten to be) the host of the latest 
shiny toy.  They no longer support older chipsets, such as the VIA 8237A 
nothbridge (it was just ripped out without commentary, so you have no 
hard disk access).  The BSDs--and even Windows seem to have kept it.

--Chuck

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 17:50:14 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:50:14 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com> <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>

"How are
folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
these old machines?"

The method I use is pretty close to what you mention, though I lack an
electronic load. Here are some thoughts...

For measuring capacity - on these rather large-value caps, it's quite
acceptable to time their discharge rate through a known, stable resistance
of some reasonable value based on the marked capacitance. Make several runs
and average them out. Calculating value is then simple arithmetic - C=T/R.

For leakage, I use a variable voltage-regulated PSU with current-viewing
resistor in series. At what percent of marked voltage does leakage clear
the noise? At what voltage does it become significant and at what point
does it exceed allowable? All electrolytics leak, and the larger value the
part, the more expected leakage. Check a datasheet, or just use your
experience and make educated guesses - hint: how much power (as in heat
rejection) is the cap dissipating at working voltages vs. its marked value
and physical size?

And as you suggest, watching supply ripple on the scope, with the cap under
some nominal load, is a tried & true method. It's usually my first step, if
I think a cap might be in trouble.

(I was certain that I'd have to replace the 30 yr-old 95,000uF part in my
Altair.. but the dang thing proofed out just fine. Ran it for a day at 10%
over working voltage, and leakage sat right where it was when I began the
test. )

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday (09/30/2015 at 10:54AM -0700), John Robertson wrote:
> >
> > As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives
> useful
> > readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close
> to
> > zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...
>
> And that seems to be the usual situation for most ESR meters.  How are
> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
> these old machines?
>
> One approach I use has been to isolate the supply and then fire it up
> with an electronic load while looking at voltage sag and ripple on a
> scope while that load is swept from min to max capability of the supply.
>
> There is also the Sencore LC53 "Z Meter" which can test large caps up
> to 200,000 uF out of circuit but these are typically a $400+ instrument
> on the used market.
>
> http://bama.edebris.com/download/sencore/lc53/LC53%20OPS.pdf
>
> Chris
> --
> Chris Elmquist N?JCF
>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 17:50:14 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:50:14 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com> <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>

"How are
folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
these old machines?"

The method I use is pretty close to what you mention, though I lack an
electronic load. Here are some thoughts...

For measuring capacity - on these rather large-value caps, it's quite
acceptable to time their discharge rate through a known, stable resistance
of some reasonable value based on the marked capacitance. Make several runs
and average them out. Calculating value is then simple arithmetic - C=T/R.

For leakage, I use a variable voltage-regulated PSU with current-viewing
resistor in series. At what percent of marked voltage does leakage clear
the noise? At what voltage does it become significant and at what point
does it exceed allowable? All electrolytics leak, and the larger value the
part, the more expected leakage. Check a datasheet, or just use your
experience and make educated guesses - hint: how much power (as in heat
rejection) is the cap dissipating at working voltages vs. its marked value
and physical size?

And as you suggest, watching supply ripple on the scope, with the cap under
some nominal load, is a tried & true method. It's usually my first step, if
I think a cap might be in trouble.

(I was certain that I'd have to replace the 30 yr-old 95,000uF part in my
Altair.. but the dang thing proofed out just fine. Ran it for a day at 10%
over working voltage, and leakage sat right where it was when I began the
test. )

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday (09/30/2015 at 10:54AM -0700), John Robertson wrote:
> >
> > As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives
> useful
> > readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close
> to
> > zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...
>
> And that seems to be the usual situation for most ESR meters.  How are
> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
> these old machines?
>
> One approach I use has been to isolate the supply and then fire it up
> with an electronic load while looking at voltage sag and ripple on a
> scope while that load is swept from min to max capability of the supply.
>
> There is also the Sencore LC53 "Z Meter" which can test large caps up
> to 200,000 uF out of circuit but these are typically a $400+ instrument
> on the used market.
>
> http://bama.edebris.com/download/sencore/lc53/LC53%20OPS.pdf
>
> Chris
> --
> Chris Elmquist N?JCF
>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 19:05:37 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:05:37 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com> <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
 <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4m1MDLuww7DcBcE5uQO3pPeT0VwJ0Ao_PjD58nQM++8A@mail.gmail.com>

Good primer paper from Sencore (manufacturer of instruments, not
capacitors..) on the nature, causes and effects of ESR:

http://patriotgaming.com/manuals/gaming_monitors/sencore_instruments/LC103/TT104-4416.pdf

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:50 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> "How are
> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
> these old machines?"
>
> The method I use is pretty close to what you mention, though I lack an
> electronic load. Here are some thoughts...
>
> For measuring capacity - on these rather large-value caps, it's quite
> acceptable to time their discharge rate through a known, stable resistance
> of some reasonable value based on the marked capacitance. Make several runs
> and average them out. Calculating value is then simple arithmetic - C=T/R.
>
> For leakage, I use a variable voltage-regulated PSU with current-viewing
> resistor in series. At what percent of marked voltage does leakage clear
> the noise? At what voltage does it become significant and at what point
> does it exceed allowable? All electrolytics leak, and the larger value the
> part, the more expected leakage. Check a datasheet, or just use your
> experience and make educated guesses - hint: how much power (as in heat
> rejection) is the cap dissipating at working voltages vs. its marked value
> and physical size?
>
> And as you suggest, watching supply ripple on the scope, with the cap
> under some nominal load, is a tried & true method. It's usually my first
> step, if I think a cap might be in trouble.
>
> (I was certain that I'd have to replace the 30 yr-old 95,000uF part in my
> Altair.. but the dang thing proofed out just fine. Ran it for a day at 10%
> over working voltage, and leakage sat right where it was when I began the
> test. )
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday (09/30/2015 at 10:54AM -0700), John Robertson wrote:
>> >
>> > As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives
>> useful
>> > readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close
>> to
>> > zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...
>>
>> And that seems to be the usual situation for most ESR meters.  How are
>> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
>> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
>> these old machines?
>>
>> One approach I use has been to isolate the supply and then fire it up
>> with an electronic load while looking at voltage sag and ripple on a
>> scope while that load is swept from min to max capability of the supply.
>>
>> There is also the Sencore LC53 "Z Meter" which can test large caps up
>> to 200,000 uF out of circuit but these are typically a $400+ instrument
>> on the used market.
>>
>> http://bama.edebris.com/download/sencore/lc53/LC53%20OPS.pdf
>>
>> Chris
>> --
>> Chris Elmquist N?JCF
>>
>>
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 19:05:37 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:05:37 -0500
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
 <560C21BF.8050601@flippers.com> <20150930183538.GY4403@n0jcf.net>
 <CAFjrmd62KhwVeghx+32PC2NOT2jwVDbrMFsQdKr2PPK+agbHQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4m1MDLuww7DcBcE5uQO3pPeT0VwJ0Ao_PjD58nQM++8A@mail.gmail.com>

Good primer paper from Sencore (manufacturer of instruments, not
capacitors..) on the nature, causes and effects of ESR:

http://patriotgaming.com/manuals/gaming_monitors/sencore_instruments/LC103/TT104-4416.pdf

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:50 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> "How are
> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
> these old machines?"
>
> The method I use is pretty close to what you mention, though I lack an
> electronic load. Here are some thoughts...
>
> For measuring capacity - on these rather large-value caps, it's quite
> acceptable to time their discharge rate through a known, stable resistance
> of some reasonable value based on the marked capacitance. Make several runs
> and average them out. Calculating value is then simple arithmetic - C=T/R.
>
> For leakage, I use a variable voltage-regulated PSU with current-viewing
> resistor in series. At what percent of marked voltage does leakage clear
> the noise? At what voltage does it become significant and at what point
> does it exceed allowable? All electrolytics leak, and the larger value the
> part, the more expected leakage. Check a datasheet, or just use your
> experience and make educated guesses - hint: how much power (as in heat
> rejection) is the cap dissipating at working voltages vs. its marked value
> and physical size?
>
> And as you suggest, watching supply ripple on the scope, with the cap
> under some nominal load, is a tried & true method. It's usually my first
> step, if I think a cap might be in trouble.
>
> (I was certain that I'd have to replace the 30 yr-old 95,000uF part in my
> Altair.. but the dang thing proofed out just fine. Ran it for a day at 10%
> over working voltage, and leakage sat right where it was when I began the
> test. )
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday (09/30/2015 at 10:54AM -0700), John Robertson wrote:
>> >
>> > As for testing large capacitors, about the highest value that gives
>> useful
>> > readings is around 10,000ufd. Larger than that and the ESR is too close
>> to
>> > zero ohms unless the cap is really bad...
>>
>> And that seems to be the usual situation for most ESR meters.  How are
>> folks testing the very large electrolytics in the 25,000, 80,000 or even
>> 100,000 uF range that are encountered in the power supplies of some of
>> these old machines?
>>
>> One approach I use has been to isolate the supply and then fire it up
>> with an electronic load while looking at voltage sag and ripple on a
>> scope while that load is swept from min to max capability of the supply.
>>
>> There is also the Sencore LC53 "Z Meter" which can test large caps up
>> to 200,000 uF out of circuit but these are typically a $400+ instrument
>> on the used market.
>>
>> http://bama.edebris.com/download/sencore/lc53/LC53%20OPS.pdf
>>
>> Chris
>> --
>> Chris Elmquist N?JCF
>>
>>
>

From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Wed Sep 30 19:16:03 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:16:03 -0400
Subject: Ping to Tim Shoppa
In-Reply-To: <560B4CD3.7020400@compsys.to>
References: <560B414E.6090905@compsys.to> <20150930020938.GP94586@gmail.com>
 <560B4CD3.7020400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <560C7B43.6040604@compsys.to>

 >Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> >Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>>
>>> This post is for Tim Shoppa.
>>>
>>> This have seen your replies every so often on classiccmp, so you
>>> don't seem to be totally out of touch.
>>>
>>> If you are reading this, Alan Frisbie and I would appreciate
>>> some help.
>>>
>>> Allan can be reached at the address to which I sent a copy. 
>>
>> If you CCed someone, that seems to have been stripped by the mailing
>> list. 
>
> I sent an e-mail directly to Tim this morning.  I have seen
> replies from Tim in the past, so I know he must watch
> these posts.
>
> Has anyone located a PDF on the internet for the RT-11
> Release Notes from the V05.07 DOC set in October 1998?

On reading my reply again, I probably did not respond very accurately.

I  did NOT CC Tim Shoppa when I sent my second e-mail to
classiccmp SINCE, as I did state in my first response that I
had sent my initial request directly to Tim Shoppa at the last
e-mail address that I did have.

As to the real reason why I am clarifying, Tim Shoppa has already
responded and has sent a PDF file of the V05.07 Release Notes
to Al Kossow and myself.  Al Kossow may have already placed
the PDF file on the bitsavers archive.  However, at the trailing-edge
mirror, the new file is DEFINITELY already there!  Since some
individuals might have been following this thread rather than the
thread about PDF for RT-11 V05.07 Release Notes, I am
updating the information here as well.

All of the V05.06 RT-11  DOC set manuals are available at:
<>http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/

EXCEPT for the V05.06 RT-11 System Release Notes manual,
ALL of the other manuals are IDENTICAL for the V05.07 RT-11
DOC set manuals.

The old and new PDF files, respectively, along with the links are:
AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.6_Aug91/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug91.pdf 


AA-5286M-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug98.pdf
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rt11/v5.7_Aug98/AA-5286L-TC_RT-11_System_Release_Notes_Aug98.pdf 


A  BIG  THANK  YOU to Tim Shoppa for making this PDF available.

Jerome Fine

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Sep 30 19:22:43 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:22:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509301902160.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015, John Robertson wrote:
> On 09/29/2015 2:59 PM, Jay West wrote:
>
>> This is the one I have used for years.....
>> 
>> http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm
>> 
>> About $88 USD
>
> That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith 
> ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek until 
> the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now called the 
> Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such as I. These all 
> use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB layouts.
>
> If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue section, 
> or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the east side of 
> the pond.
>
> I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of Bob's 
> ESR meter kit since 1999!

I bought a kit from anatekcorp.com last year to replace my Dick Smith 
version that spouted legs and was rather disappointed with how it had been 
kitted up. A lot of the components were very low quality or did not fit 
the board properly, so I substituted my own. Even the 9V battery snap was 
made wrong (bad quality wire and the snap was made backwards). Another 
oddity was the kit included two 18 pin dip sockets instead of an 18 pin 
and a 16 pin (I used some 3M dual wipe sockets that I had anyway).

One thing that really bothered me about the 'Blue ESR' variation compared 
to the original Dick Smith version was the lack of banana jacks, however I 
found some shrouded jacks which fit the blue Hammond enclosure.

If there is any interest in the changes I made to my meter, I'll see about 
digging up my notes/parts list and the photos I took during assembly.

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Sep 30 19:26:44 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:26:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <002b01d0fb8a$63a28bc0$2ae7a340$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509301923430.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015, Jay West wrote:

> Question - I could be mistaken, but I think someone mentioned that these 
> were not good for testing caps that had a higher operating voltage. Is 
> that correct? My understanding was that the testing method used by this 
> ESR meter was valid for most all the large electrolytics...?

You can measure the ESR of any capacitor, however for large filter 
capacitors, a leakage tester is likely to be more important.

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 19:52:03 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:52:03 -0500
Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board?
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6xqpY8WFXEhX8t3dg5sWHDRO1Xd_xae0sWv2EgP3ZEDg@mail.gmail.com>

(Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this one..
so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board)

Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card.
I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working system
- but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how
to put it to use. Photos are here:

https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg
https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg

Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the
only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that
this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been
re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs
exist under a name other than MCT?

Any help greatly appreciated - thanks!

-Bill

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 20:12:58 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:12:58 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
Message-ID: <004501d0fbe6$5104bfe0$f30e3fa0$@gmail.com>

I have been using the BK Precision 879B:
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/lcr/879b.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=
CKj82-uIoMgCFRNrfgodYOYOvA
It's at a completely different price point ($250-ish), and much more than an
ESR meter - but it's a bargain for a full R,C,L,Z meter. Very useful to know
not only the ESR, but the actual value of the capacitance (which for big
power supply caps could have diminished significantly over the years). It
can measure components at 100Hz, 1000Hz and 10Khz. You could not justify it
for a single power supply repair, but if you do a lot of old electronics
restoration projects, it is a precious tool to have. I couldn't live without
it now.
You can see it in action in the middle of this video here, in this case
exonerating a capacitor that I sure thought was the cause of my power
problem, but turned out to be perfectly good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqD6xVI6qNs

Marc

 ======================
From: Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com>
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations

I'm going to be working on my 11/730s power supply, so I'm in the
market for an ESR meter.  I've seen some (older) recommendations for
the AnaTek 'Blue' and various 'Dick Smith' derivatives.  However, eBay
is flooded with knockoff Mega328 based ESR/Transistor/SCR/etc. testers
all looking like:

http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multifunction-Mega328-Transistor-Capacitor/dp/B00
NKY3M1W/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1443561246&sr=8-16&keywords=esr+meter
Anyone had any experience with one of these devices?

KJ
=====================


From jrr at flippers.com  Wed Sep 30 20:15:53 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:15:53 -0700
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509301902160.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509301902160.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <560C8949.2000003@flippers.com>

On 09/30/2015 5:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Sep 2015, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 09/29/2015 2:59 PM, Jay West wrote:
>>
>>> This is the one I have used for years.....
>>>
>>> http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm
>>>
>>> About $88 USD
>>
>> That is an authorized Bob Parker variation of his original Dick Smith 
>> ESR meter kit. On this side of the pond they were made by Anatek 
>> until the owner was killed in an accident, then the series (now 
>> called the Blue ESR) is made by Alltronics and sold by dealers such 
>> as I. These all use Bob's licensed code, just different box and PCB 
>> layouts.
>>
>> If you want a Blue ESR I sell them on my web site's catalogue 
>> section, or you can order the EVB from Portugal if you are on the 
>> east side of the pond.
>>
>> I've been selling variations (evolution by intelligent design) of 
>> Bob's ESR meter kit since 1999!
>
> I bought a kit from anatekcorp.com last year to replace my Dick Smith 
> version that spouted legs and was rather disappointed with how it had 
> been kitted up. A lot of the components were very low quality or did 
> not fit the board properly, so I substituted my own. Even the 9V 
> battery snap was made wrong (bad quality wire and the snap was made 
> backwards). Another oddity was the kit included two 18 pin dip sockets 
> instead of an 18 pin and a 16 pin (I used some 3M dual wipe sockets 
> that I had anyway).
>
> One thing that really bothered me about the 'Blue ESR' variation 
> compared to the original Dick Smith version was the lack of banana 
> jacks, however I found some shrouded jacks which fit the blue Hammond 
> enclosure.
>
> If there is any interest in the changes I made to my meter, I'll see 
> about digging up my notes/parts list and the photos I took during 
> assembly.
>
The new kit makers seem to be doing a good job on fitting the kits out 
properly, had a little trouble with the first batch and they quickly 
sent me missing parts. Heck,  I remember problems I had with Dick Smith 
kits back in the early 00s - missing circuit boards, wrong parts, etc. 
However DS (and Anatek) ALWAYS made good on shortages.

Plus Bob Parker is still helping folks with his kit, he has a great 
support site in AU for these kits.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm  (note the lack of 
twitter or facebook links - "This web page is for grownups"!)

FYI the kit leads have banana sockets on them...so you can quick connect 
the optional probes or use your own.

John :-#)#

-- 
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
                  www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 20:18:10 2015
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:18:10 -0400
Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6xqpY8WFXEhX8t3dg5sWHDRO1Xd_xae0sWv2EgP3ZEDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd6xqpY8WFXEhX8t3dg5sWHDRO1Xd_xae0sWv2EgP3ZEDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucyAhz-DVdq2GjsHnnTSvFReyukD3B8VhtLuiy1GR3wfA@mail.gmail.com>

Did you try asking @ retrotechnology.com

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Sep 30, 2015 8:52 PM, "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:

> (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this one..
> so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board)
>
> Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card.
> I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working system
> - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how
> to put it to use. Photos are here:
>
> https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg
> https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg
>
> Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the
> only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that
> this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been
> re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs
> exist under a name other than MCT?
>
> Any help greatly appreciated - thanks!
>
> -Bill
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 20:22:39 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:22:39 -0500
Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board?
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucyAhz-DVdq2GjsHnnTSvFReyukD3B8VhtLuiy1GR3wfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd6xqpY8WFXEhX8t3dg5sWHDRO1Xd_xae0sWv2EgP3ZEDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucyAhz-DVdq2GjsHnnTSvFReyukD3B8VhtLuiy1GR3wfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6jXB9uFtN=XED=r1kiGLAE93s4izK+CCP40shotOvDiA@mail.gmail.com>

In fact, I did not. Thanks for the tip! ;-)

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 8:18 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Did you try asking @ retrotechnology.com
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On Sep 30, 2015 8:52 PM, "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this
> one..
> > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board)
> >
> > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card.
> > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working
> system
> > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how
> > to put it to use. Photos are here:
> >
> > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg
> > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg
> >
> > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the
> > only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that
> > this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been
> > re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs
> > exist under a name other than MCT?
> >
> > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks!
> >
> > -Bill
> >
>

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Sep 30 22:55:15 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:55:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ESR Meter Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <560C8949.2000003@flippers.com>
References: <CAOrcWjzcOFvqPVCNhP8DFz+Y2Gz=5E7emUU9H=Y5oPn24HvLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <036c01d0fb00$902b4130$b081c390$@gmail.com>
 <000001d0fb02$0d137630$273a6290$@classiccmp.org>
 <560BED4C.5070209@flippers.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509301902160.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <560C8949.2000003@flippers.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1509302224310.19635@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015, John Robertson wrote:
> On 09/30/2015 5:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
>> I bought a kit from anatekcorp.com last year to replace my Dick Smith 
>> version that spouted legs and was rather disappointed with how it had 
>> been kitted up. A lot of the components were very low quality or did 
>> not fit the board properly, so I substituted my own. Even the 9V 
>> battery snap was made wrong (bad quality wire and the snap was made 
>> backwards). Another oddity was the kit included two 18 pin dip sockets 
>> instead of an 18 pin and a 16 pin (I used some 3M dual wipe sockets 
>> that I had anyway).
>> 
>> One thing that really bothered me about the 'Blue ESR' variation 
>> compared to the original Dick Smith version was the lack of banana 
>> jacks, however I found some shrouded jacks which fit the blue Hammond 
>> enclosure.
>> 
>> If there is any interest in the changes I made to my meter, I'll see 
>> about digging up my notes/parts list and the photos I took during 
>> assembly.
>
> The new kit makers seem to be doing a good job on fitting the kits out 
> properly, had a little trouble with the first batch and they quickly 
> sent me missing parts. Heck, I remember problems I had with Dick Smith 
> kits back in the early 00s - missing circuit boards, wrong parts, etc. 
> However DS (and Anatek) ALWAYS made good on shortages.

It wasn't really a case of missing parts, just really poor quality parts 
apparently purchased in bulk based on price and little else (which may 
also be the reason why my kit had two 18 pin sockets in it). Some of the 
parts also looked suspiciously like the really junk stuff you find from 
the far-east eBay resellers. The capacitors they included did not match 
the lead spacing on the board (cheaper off-brand 5mm dia, 2mm ls parts 
instead of low profile 6.3mm dia 2.5mm ls), although I had no trouble at 
all finding the correct low-profile parts from Mouser that the board 
seemed to be designed for (IIRC, Nichicon SA and SR series electrolytics). 
Even the trimmer resistors were the wrong format for the board, which I 
replaced with some high quality Bourns parts that fit perfectly. Heck, 
even the Omron button cap was selected based on price...a tiny square cap 
intended to poke through a round hole? I used a larger round button cap 
from Omron.

> Plus Bob Parker is still helping folks with his kit, he has a great 
> support site in AU for these kits.
>
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm (note the lack of 
> twitter or facebook links - "This web page is for grownups"!)
>
> FYI the kit leads have banana sockets on them...so you can quick connect 
> the optional probes or use your own.

...yeah. About that...those leads and banana plugs are *terrible*. 
Absolutely junk. [Not to mention if you plug the "banana plugs" they 
include into the test probes they offer, there is no safety shroud at the 
plug to probe connection.] The little short wires they included were 
kinked, sticky, and were /never/ going to work out well. Maybe they would 
be find for a hobbyist who uses the tool every once in awhile, but for 
daily use? No way.

I also wanted to be able to use my Probe Master and Parrot Clip test leads 
with it. The original Dick Smith version had banana jacks, although they 
weren't shrouded and weren't standard 0.75" spacing, however the shrouded 
jacks I added to my Blue ESR meter are standard 0.75" spacing, so I can 
use double-banana plugs with them if I want to.

I took lots of photos and notes with the intent to write up a full 
critical review of it, but I've just been too busy with other projects. My 
personal opinion is the fit and finish of the Blue ESR meter out of the 
box isn't up to par and they charge way too much for the kit to be 
substituting in low quality components.

From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Sep 30 23:17:06 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:17:06 -0700
Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd6jXB9uFtN=XED=r1kiGLAE93s4izK+CCP40shotOvDiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd6xqpY8WFXEhX8t3dg5sWHDRO1Xd_xae0sWv2EgP3ZEDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBucyAhz-DVdq2GjsHnnTSvFReyukD3B8VhtLuiy1GR3wfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjrmd6jXB9uFtN=XED=r1kiGLAE93s4izK+CCP40shotOvDiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com>

I couldn't spot how they did level shifting to RS232 levels.  The SI 
signal appears to go to a 7400 next to one of the Uarts.

One of the Uarts is one which requires it would seem 12 v as well, but 
it doesn't do the levels for rs232  (AY-3-1015)

I'd need sharper images and possession of the board to peer at it for an 
hour or so to try to figure it out.

Also the edge card space from the dual 50 pin headers seem to be 
suspicious.  i don't have an S100 spec to look at handy, but I was going 
to see if there is any decoding going on, or maybe this is just a buffer 
board to go to another system.  There seems to be a lot of LS244 and so 
forth going on on the way to the edge card connectors, which smells more 
like a buffer board than a serial board.  that is is not populated but 
for the two 10 pin connectors is more interesting.

Maybe someone else will figure out more or know more.

thanks
Jim


On 9/30/2015 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> In fact, I did not. Thanks for the tip! ;-)
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 8:18 PM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Did you try asking @ retrotechnology.com
>>
>> Bill Degnan
>> twitter: billdeg
>> vintagecomputer.net
>> On Sep 30, 2015 8:52 PM, "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this
>> one..
>>> so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board)
>>>
>>> Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card.
>>> I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working
>> system
>>> - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how
>>> to put it to use. Photos are here:
>>>
>>> https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg
>>> https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg
>>>
>>> Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the
>>> only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that
>>> this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been
>>> re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs
>>> exist under a name other than MCT?
>>>
>>> Any help greatly appreciated - thanks!
>>>
>>> -Bill
>>>
>


From scaron at umich.edu  Wed Sep 30 19:34:50 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:34:50 -0400
Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of
 comprehensible computers
In-Reply-To: <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com>
References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCHMOayCA1ud+YFumT3ezg0e8WiB8O0XnrnmzjGBJ1LOOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <560C5224.8060801@charter.net>
 <CAA43vkV0Ec+2M76MZEKyghc77+k+QNUqgAZdsjPC2jfpB9qxpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVdQ-u+b4ogBOfinAb-Png6k=xZ-tit_DyVn96wYN22KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it's all the same Linux kernel; for each branch of each distribution,
they pick a kernel train they want to run with and then backport patches as
required for security or device driver support from more modern kernels ...
Nothing to stop you from running X kernel (or Z window manager) on Y
distribution, generally. The primary differentiator is really the packaging
scheme; whether it uses the Debian style (*.deb) or the Red Hat (*.rpm)
style or perhaps something more basic (*.tar.gz) like Slackware.

While there are a few "forks" of BSD, there never was a proliferation of
various "distributions"; that is to say, there is only one, definitive
FreeBSD, one, definitive NetBSD and one, definitive OpenBSD. All are
significantly stripped of crud out of the box compared to Linux.

Ironically, I had to migrate a few of my home servers _to_ Linux _from_
FreeBSD (with some reticence) because FreeBSD dropped support for my Fore
PCA-200E cards and I didn't want to stop running OC-3 MM ATM at home :O

I do still run some FreeBSD systems at home but just as ESXi VMs.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 09/30/2015 02:50 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> Just the whole idea of so many Linux distributions makes me bang my
>> head against the coffee table. One thing I greatly admire about the
>> *BSD projects has been the strong arm of unification, all
>> contributors are working towards one goal... It just so happened that
>> Linux was the "free UNIX that took off" (just like i386 was the
>> "architecture that won") and we have to live with the repercussions
>> of that in IT ops every day for better or for worse ... But that's
>> just my two cents and no more ... I know this topic can get
>> religious! :O
>>
>
> I find that most of the difference between Linuces lies in the GUI, not in
> the "guts" of the system.  Many, if not, most use a Debian-based kernel
> with other stuff bolted on--and even that's not cast in Sakrete.  I'm
> sitting at a system now running Ubuntu with the XFCE desktop (I can't stand
> Unity).  At the command-line level, there's little that's substantially
> different among Linuces.
>
> Anent BSD, you'll find considerable differences in approaches to OpenBSD
> compared with FreeBSD.  OpenBSD is conservative to the point of being
> almost paranoid, an approach I greatly admire.  OpenBSD management seems to
> despise virtualization in any form, so no Wine for you, much less
> VirtualBox.  Ftp is not officially supported, etc.  Compared to OpenBSD,
> FreeBSD is a painted whore.
>
> It's been a long time since I've updated my systems with NetBSD, so it's
> hard to say much there.
>
> Linux is getting to be (or has gotten to be) the host of the latest shiny
> toy.  They no longer support older chipsets, such as the VIA 8237A
> nothbridge (it was just ripped out without commentary, so you have no hard
> disk access).  The BSDs--and even Windows seem to have kept it.
>
> --Chuck
>