From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 1 00:20:37 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 00:20:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> References: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 2015, jwsmobile wrote: > I couldn't spot how they did level shifting to RS232 levels. The SI > signal appears to go to a 7400 next to one of the Uarts. > > One of the Uarts is one which requires it would seem 12 v as well, but > it doesn't do the levels for rs232 (AY-3-1015) > > I'd need sharper images and possession of the board to peer at it for an > hour or so to try to figure it out. > > Also the edge card space from the dual 50 pin headers seem to be > suspicious. i don't have an S100 spec to look at handy, but I was going > to see if there is any decoding going on, or maybe this is just a buffer > board to go to another system. There seems to be a lot of LS244 and so > forth going on on the way to the edge card connectors, which smells more > like a buffer board than a serial board. that is is not populated but > for the two 10 pin connectors is more interesting. > > Maybe someone else will figure out more or know more. The resistor networks connected to those traces are also not populated. Wonder what the deal is with the missing C2 right next to the crystal though? Broken off? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 00:26:25 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 05:26:25 +0000 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> References: , <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I couldn't spot how they did level shifting to RS232 levels. The SI > signal appears to go to a 7400 next to one of the Uarts. There are a couple of 8 pin ICs near the 10 pin headers, they look to be 1458 dual op-amps (I can't exactly make out the numbers...). Op-amps were often used as RS232 drivers. Give them +/-12V supplies, feed a TTL signal into one of the inputs, connect the other input to a voltage between the TTL levels (potential divider from the 5V line) and apply no negative feedback. The Op-amp output will swing between the supply rails. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 00:46:11 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 00:46:11 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hey guys, I'm fairly certain this is a serial board - mostly because the PO told me so, and when I received it, it had a 25-pin male connector on a three-wire cable carelessly soldered to the pads behind one of the cable headers on the top edge. But the cable was removed as a matter of course when I was prepping the machine for a rebuild. I mistakenly assumed that the docs would be trivial to locate - so no need to record the original wiring connections. . On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 12:26 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > I couldn't spot how they did level shifting to RS232 levels. The SI > > signal appears to go to a 7400 next to one of the Uarts. > > There are a couple of 8 pin ICs near the 10 pin headers, they look to > be 1458 dual op-amps (I can't exactly make out the numbers...). > > Op-amps were often used as RS232 drivers. Give them +/-12V supplies, > feed a TTL signal into one of the inputs, connect the other input to a > voltage between the TTL levels (potential divider from the 5V line) and > apply no negative feedback. The Op-amp output will swing between the > supply rails. > > -tony > From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 01:14:54 2015 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 00:14:54 -0600 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card. Could this MCT be Modular Circuit Technology, the generic brand of add on cards once sold in the JDR Microdevices catalog? From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 1 02:15:48 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 02:15:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com wrote: >> Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial >> card. > > Could this MCT be Modular Circuit Technology, the generic brand of add > on cards once sold in the JDR Microdevices catalog? Possibly, I mentioned this in the other thread. JDR Microdevices started selling stuff in 1979 and this board looks like it was made in 1980. I think this board might eventually turn up in an old magazine article or ad (Radio Electronics, Popular Electronics, Kilobaud Microcomputing, etc) since it looks like it may have been a kit. From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 1 02:34:41 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 09:34:41 +0200 Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..) In-Reply-To: <560AE107.50706@charter.net> References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <560AE107.50706@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151001073441.GA52758@beast.freibergnet.de> Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 9/29/2015 1:22 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> > > Forgot to ask: > > In the VAX CPU the M8236 should be the Interface to the Console Computer, > > what is ion the other reEnd in the PDP11? > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > > I have one taken out of a VAX 11/780, and my inventory records indicate > it is an M9400-YE. > > The complete complement of boards in that machine, in slot order: > > M7264-YC (CPU) > M7946 (RXV11 floppy control) > M7940 (DLV11 serial port) > M8400-EH (Memory) > M9400-YE (Terminator / VAX Interface - presumably has ROMS too). > > JRJ Thanks Jay, that clears things up. Do you possibly want to sell that M9400-YE? (I don't know if the people in Halle would buy it, I'm just asking to tell them). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 1 02:40:43 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 00:40:43 -0700 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <560CE37B.3030106@jwsss.com> On 9/30/2015 10:46 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Hey guys, > > I'm fairly certain this is a serial board - mostly because the PO told > me so, and when I received it, it had a 25-pin male connector on a > three-wire cable carelessly soldered to the pads behind one of the > cable headers on the top edge. But the cable was removed as a matter > of course when I was prepping the machine for a rebuild. I mistakenly > assumed that the docs would be trivial to locate - so no need to > record the original wiring connections. > no disputing that. Glad Tony made his point, I was curious if it was early enough to not have had what we are accustomed to now days. Previous owner had it in an S100 system? that is my remaining concern. I have some pretty convincing boards which look like but aren't ducks. Interesting card, thanks for posting it. It'll be interesting to see what you find. I'm also interested in what the referenced info source, from Bill Degan, retrotechnology.com turns up. thanks Jim From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Thu Oct 1 05:10:15 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 06:10:15 -0400 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301d0fc31$5ebd5d90$1c3818b0$@sc.rr.com> Hi drlegendre, According to the attached datasheet for the GI AY-3-1014A & AY-3-1015D chips on your board, they are 0-30K baud UAR/T chips so you at least have two serial ports. As to what the rest of the board is, many of the other chips identifications are a bit fuzzy plus one chip is missing and several Resister networks are missing as well. If I would have to guess, the two 50 pin interfaces might be some type of parallel interface. With the attached datasheet, you should be able to trace out where the three wires you removed would have to go. You would of course at a minimum need an RS-232 Transmit Data, Receive Data and Ground. That would of course not connect any hardware control of any kind. I hope this is at least enough to get the serial ports working. Also I would check what look like 4 resistors and 2 capacitors in the brown, burnt area below the two 40 pin chips as their values may be altered from excessive heat. The rest of the board looks like it may not have been finished as some parts are missing. The kit idea sounds very plausible. Thanks for the picture you have provided. It's much better than I could have done with my cell phone or video camera. I hope you do eventually figure out the rest of the board. Take care my friend. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre . > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 8:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? > > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this one.. > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board) > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card. > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working system > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how to put it to use. Photos are here: > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg > > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My > hunch is that this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been re-badged and sold under one or more > different names. So perhaps the docs exist under a name other than MCT? > > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks! > > -Bill From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 06:45:27 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:45:27 +0200 Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 02:34, Sean Caron wrote: > While there are a few "forks" of BSD, there never was a proliferation of > various "distributions"; that is to say, there is only one, definitive > FreeBSD, one, definitive NetBSD and one, definitive OpenBSD. All are > significantly stripped of crud out of the box compared to Linux. Well, there's one OpenBSD and one NetBSD. Off the top of my head, FreeBSD has begotten: * DragonflyBSD * m0n0wall * PC-BSD * GhostBSD * NeXT BSD >From some cursory research, there are also: * MidnightBSD * pfSense * FreeSBIE * DesktopBSD Whether FreeNAS and NAS4Free count is open to interpretation. There are others, too. I have played with PC-BSD and GhostBSD, both of which I quite liked but found too minimal for me compared to Linux. I thought MidnightBSD was dead but apparently there's recently been a new release, which I shall investigate. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 07:30:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 12:30:19 +0000 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <560CE37B.3030106@jwsss.com> References: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> , <560CE37B.3030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > > > I'm fairly certain this is a serial board - mostly because the PO told > > me so, and when I received it, it had a 25-pin male connector on a > > three-wire cable carelessly soldered to the pads behind one of the > > cable headers on the top edge. But the cable was removed as a matter > > of course when I was prepping the machine for a rebuild. I mistakenly > > assumed that the docs would be trivial to locate - so no need to > > record the original wiring connections. > > > no disputing that. Glad Tony made his point, I was curious if it was > early enough to not have had what we are accustomed to now days. Does 'now days' include RS232 interfaces :-) But before the 1488 (or at least before it was common), many manufacturers used op-amps as RS232 drivers. Look at the HP11205 and 11206 interfaces for the HP9830, for example. For input I could believe taking the signal through a resistor to a zener diode to ground. Remember a zener is reverse-biased in 'breakdown' mode so that circuit will clamp +ve voltages to the zener voltages and -ve voltages (where the zener is not the normal way round and therefore acts as a normal silicon diode) to -0.6V. Or indeed resistor +diode clamps to +5V and ground. Then into a TTL gate. Given that the original connection was 3 wires, it's a good bet they were TxD, RxD and ground. Ground should be trivial to find. The trace the SO output of the UART to an op-amp and then to the header. Similarly trace SI back through a TTL gate (which has been mentioned already) to a header pin. I can't believe this is a complicated circuit.... OK, I've been doing this sort of thing for years, but I wouldn't be surprised if I could trace those connections in less time that it's taken to try to look for the docs... -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 1 07:54:16 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:54:16 +0100 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560CB3C2.7050100@jwsss.com> <560CE37B.3030106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <560D2CF8.9080706@btinternet.com> I have been doing a bit of spadework on this one. There was a company call MCT who advertised in the PC Mag. in the early 80's The products were add-ons for PC's. The possibiliy that they made S100 products prior to 1980 is not an unreasonable one. So anybody with an early 80's PC Mag might find them. In fact any publication from about then may have a reference. Rod On 01/10/2015 13:30, tony duell wrote: >>> I'm fairly certain this is a serial board - mostly because the PO told >>> me so, and when I received it, it had a 25-pin male connector on a >>> three-wire cable carelessly soldered to the pads behind one of the >>> cable headers on the top edge. But the cable was removed as a matter >>> of course when I was prepping the machine for a rebuild. I mistakenly >>> assumed that the docs would be trivial to locate - so no need to >>> record the original wiring connections. >>> >> no disputing that. Glad Tony made his point, I was curious if it was >> early enough to not have had what we are accustomed to now days. > Does 'now days' include RS232 interfaces :-) > > But before the 1488 (or at least before it was common), many manufacturers > used op-amps as RS232 drivers. Look at the HP11205 and 11206 interfaces > for the HP9830, for example. > > For input I could believe taking the signal through a resistor to a zener diode > to ground. Remember a zener is reverse-biased in 'breakdown' mode so > that circuit will clamp +ve voltages to the zener voltages and -ve voltages (where > the zener is not the normal way round and therefore acts as a normal silicon > diode) to -0.6V. Or indeed resistor +diode clamps to +5V and ground. Then into > a TTL gate. > > Given that the original connection was 3 wires, it's a good bet they were TxD, RxD and > ground. Ground should be trivial to find. The trace the SO output of the UART to an > op-amp and then to the header. Similarly trace SI back through a TTL gate (which has > been mentioned already) to a header pin. I can't believe this is a complicated circuit.... > > OK, I've been doing this sort of thing for years, but I wouldn't be surprised if > I could trace those connections in less time that it's taken to try to look for the > docs... > > -tony -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 08:33:50 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 09:33:50 -0400 Subject: DEC handles In-Reply-To: <20150930013611.26CAF18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150930013611.26CAF18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: They still have them. They pulled the bin and put your name on it. It's about 100 (my guess) pieces at .15 each. I already did a lifetime buy myself. Joe On Sep 29, 2015, at 9:36 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: >> From: Joseph Lang > >> How many do you want? > > How many do I need, or how many do I want? :-) > > I'm tempted to buy the whole bin (unless it's like a 55 gallon barrel :-), > and hold onto them for other CCTalk people who need them. > > Maybe this will work: if you find them, point them out to the store people, > and tell them I'll call? Would that be the easiest thing for you? > > Thanks! > > Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 09:46:59 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:46:59 +0200 Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany In-Reply-To: References: <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com> <56004E59.407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The same seller is apparently selling a lot of punched card machines: http://www.ebay.de/itm/371453045495 http://www.ebay.de/itm/371453065369 2015-09-21 22:32 GMT+02:00 Henk Gooijen : > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 8:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany > > On 9/21/2015 10:14 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice. >> > I used 029's in 1971, and they had been around for at least a year or > two at the school. The auction say 1973, which is probably right. > >> >>> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/371439456530 >>> >>> Not mine. >>> >> Trimmed the URL so it doesn't wrap. > > Google translate text of description. I'd love to see Bitsavers get a > scan of the documents. > > Another nit, I think the auction states no shipment to the US > (translation leaves a bit to be desired). Currently sitting @ 1 euro. > Needs Repair. > > Experience the EDP the early period and even punch cards punching > > Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type > 8010 available. > This card-punch came in 1973 on the market and had very many features. > > The device was made ??so quickly, that it practiced by Locher inside > could still mitstanzen in real time even at the fastest input. > with the fastest input> (my interpretation) > > The optical condition of the device is very good, almost > as good as new. > > Technically, it is not functional. It needs to be fixed. > > For auction includes a German manual and 2000 original punch card > (uncut), so that for once can punch card repair (incl. Lettering). In > addition, the Manual is one with all the detailed schematics and > explanations. > > Dimensions: H = 98cm, B = 119cm, T estimated = 68cm Weight: 80-100 kg. > > Therefore only be collected in 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. Private sale > of collection reducing without guarantee and no redemption. Similar > offers will follow soon. > > Thanks > Jim > > ====== > > I can give a better translation than Google does, but there are German > guys on this list who can do that too. It is pick up only near Frankfurt. > I am not prepared to pay too much (it is not DEC ...) but will give it > a try. Home to Frankfurt is some 400 km drive one-way. > The trip (+ truck rental) will already cost a nice penny though. > > I do have a DEC card reader, so it would be nice if I can create > punched cards for the reader ... but not at any cost! > > - Henk > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 1 09:54:20 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC handles Message-ID: <20151001145420.D5CD418C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > They still have them. They pulled the bin and put your name on it. Great, thanks very much! Just called them up and ordered the whole shebang. > It's about 100 (my guess) pieces Your guess was very accurate - actually, 105! > I already did a lifetime buy myself. If anyone needs a _few_ (between boards I already have that need them, and future needs, for some boards I am building, most of these are spoken for), let me know. Noel From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 1 10:05:42 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:05:42 -0500 Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..) In-Reply-To: <20151001073441.GA52758@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <560AE107.50706@charter.net> <20151001073441.GA52758@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <560D4BC6.6070706@charter.net> On 10/1/2015 2:34 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > Do you possibly want to sell that M9400-YE? (I don't know if the > people in Halle would buy it, I'm just asking to tell them). > > > Regards, > > Holm > I expect that I would be willing to sell it, as I have no VAX to connect it to, and wouldn't expect to ever have room for one. ;) I also confirmed on the .../dec/vax/780 doc on bitsavers (MP00534_KC780_Nov77.pdf) that the M9400-YE is what connects to the VAX CPU. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 1 10:14:09 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:14:09 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> I had a look, and it seems to me that there is more going on on this board than just serial ports. It is even possible that the system it was in had essentially re-purposed the board to use for a serial ports in a way that the original designer did not intend. That would explain the lack of obvious level shifting - it may have been used for TTL level serial I/O. Also, there are lots more passive components on this board than I would expect for a serial interface board. A company with these initials made EPROM programmers, though their logo was different - but perhaps it changed over time. Maybe this was a very early interface board to one of their very early programmers - and perhaps it is missing some of the parts, like connector headers and resistor packs, and then was re-purposed. JRJ On 9/30/2015 7:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this one.. > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board) > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card. > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working system > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how > to put it to use. Photos are here: > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg > > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the > only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that > this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been > re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs > exist under a name other than MCT? > > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks! > > -Bill > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 1 11:14:08 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:14:08 +0200 Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany In-Reply-To: References: <00b201d0f490$f3c498c0$db4dca40$@gmail.com> <56004E59.407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I picked up the Decision Data card puncher last Tuesday. Heavy stuff! I helped the seller move the orange colored card punch. It's a Juki. Also *very heavy*. BTW, the keyboard of the Decision Data puncher is connected with a cable; you can move the keyboard to a comfortable position. IIRC, the keyboard of the Juki is fixed placed on the desk. - Henk, PA8PDP -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mattis Lind Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 4:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany The same seller is apparently selling a lot of punched card machines: http://www.ebay.de/itm/371453045495 http://www.ebay.de/itm/371453065369 2015-09-21 22:32 GMT+02:00 Henk Gooijen : > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 8:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany > > On 9/21/2015 10:14 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> Pretty sure that?s later than an 029, but really nice. >> > I used 029's in 1971, and they had been around for at least a year or > two at the school. The auction say 1973, which is probably right. > >> >>> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029: >>> >>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/371439456530 >>> >>> Not mine. >>> >> Trimmed the URL so it doesn't wrap. > > Google translate text of description. I'd love to see Bitsavers get a > scan of the documents. > > Another nit, I think the auction states no shipment to the US > (translation leaves a bit to be desired). Currently sitting @ 1 euro. > Needs Repair. > > Experience the EDP the early period and even punch cards punching > > Here is a keypunch (Interpreting Data Recorder) of Decision Data, type > 8010 available. > This card-punch came in 1973 on the market and had very many features. > > The device was made ??so quickly, that it practiced by Locher inside > could still mitstanzen in real time even at the fastest input. > with the fastest input> (my interpretation) > > The optical condition of the device is very good, almost > as good as new. > > Technically, it is not functional. It needs to be fixed. > > For auction includes a German manual and 2000 original punch card > (uncut), so that for once can punch card repair (incl. Lettering). In > addition, the Manual is one with all the detailed schematics and > explanations. > > Dimensions: H = 98cm, B = 119cm, T estimated = 68cm Weight: 80-100 kg. > > Therefore only be collected in 65779 near Frankfurt / Main. Private sale > of collection reducing without guarantee and no redemption. Similar > offers will follow soon. > > Thanks > Jim > > ====== > > I can give a better translation than Google does, but there are German > guys on this list who can do that too. It is pick up only near Frankfurt. > I am not prepared to pay too much (it is not DEC ...) but will give it > a try. Home to Frankfurt is some 400 km drive one-way. > The trip (+ truck rental) will already cost a nice penny though. > > I do have a DEC card reader, so it would be nice if I can create > punched cards for the reader ... but not at any cost! > > - Henk > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 1 11:28:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 09:28:48 -0700 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <560D5F40.9000105@sydex.com> On 09/30/2015 11:14 PM, chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com wrote: > >> >> Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial >> card. > > Could this MCT be Modular Circuit Technology, the generic brand of > add on cards once sold in the JDR Microdevices catalog? I suggested that back in an earlier thread, but the "MCT" logo on the board differs in appearance from the logo used on the PC stuff. If anyone has a 1982 or so JDR catalog, that might confirm the suspicion one way or another, but I'm pretty sure after some investigation that this isn't a JDR MCT product. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 12:08:03 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:08:03 -0400 Subject: Aresco Newsletters References: <296851578.1170653.1431947278582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D6575F18DBA48D3A3157D66F3C78269@310e2> Just ran across this while deleting old posts; many of the Aresco 'PET Paper's can be found here: http://6502.org/documents/publications/pet_paper/ The Midnight Gazette also took over 'The Paper', to be found here: http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/newsletters/midnight-software-gazette/midnight-software-gazette.htm m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Mikolay" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:07 AM Subject: Aresco Newsletters > Hi all, > Out of curiosity, did anybody on here subscribe > to any of the newsletters published by a company > called Aresco back in the late 70s and early > 80s? These newsletters were VIPER (Cosmac VIP), > Paper (Commodore PET), Source (Exidy Sorcerer), > and Rainbow (Apple II). Aresco also published a > series of books by Tom Swan titled PIPs for > VIPs. > I own several issues of VIPER, but I'm still > looking for copies of the others. Does anybody > have these newsletters in their collection? > Matt From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 1 12:11:23 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > * m0n0wall Isn't m0n0wall just a LiveCD for a firewall? It was when I used it last. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 1 12:25:53 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:25:53 +0200 Subject: Robotron K1840 .. (11/780 alike..) In-Reply-To: <560D4BC6.6070706@charter.net> References: <20150927102708.GA69949@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929181528.GD78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <20150929182256.GE78173@beast.freibergnet.de> <560AE107.50706@charter.net> <20151001073441.GA52758@beast.freibergnet.de> <560D4BC6.6070706@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151001172553.GA87025@beast.freibergnet.de> Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/1/2015 2:34 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > > > > Do you possibly want to sell that M9400-YE? (I don't know if the > > people in Halle would buy it, I'm just asking to tell them). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > > I expect that I would be willing to sell it, as I have no VAX to connect > it to, and wouldn't expect to ever have room for one. ;) > > I also confirmed on the .../dec/vax/780 doc on bitsavers > (MP00534_KC780_Nov77.pdf) that the M9400-YE is what connects to the VAX > CPU. > > JRJ Ok Jay, I've forwarded your informations to here: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=12615 Hope that the people at "Rechenwerk" will get into contact with you regarding this. Thanks, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 15:17:59 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:17:59 -0400 Subject: Aresco Newsletters In-Reply-To: <5D6575F18DBA48D3A3157D66F3C78269@310e2> References: <296851578.1170653.1431947278582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5D6575F18DBA48D3A3157D66F3C78269@310e2> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Just ran across this while deleting old posts; > many of the Aresco 'PET Paper's can be found here: > > http://6502.org/documents/publications/pet_paper/ Those are great, but incomplete. Looks like only the even pages of Volume 1 Issue 6 (August 1978, labelled April 1978) got scanned, and none of Volume 2 is present. Does anyone here have those? -ethan From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 1 15:30:28 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 15:30:28 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> I've got another theory regarding drlegendre's board. I happen to know via out-of-band information that he is here in MN. There is a company in the Twin Cities called Micro Component Technology that existed in the 70s, 80s, 90s and still today. They make handling and test systems for IC fabrication. http://www.mct.com/Company.aspx I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts or lingonberries to lefse that his board is a custom job made by the MN MCT and it went into the computer control of one of their machines from the early 80s. Something probably designed in the mid to late 70s. The logo on the board matches what I remember seeing on their building in Shoreview ages ago. I don't think it's the MCT that made PC (as in IBM PC) plugins... Chris On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 10:14AM -0500), Jay Jaeger wrote: > I had a look, and it seems to me that there is more going on on this > board than just serial ports. It is even possible that the system it > was in had essentially re-purposed the board to use for a serial ports > in a way that the original designer did not intend. That would explain > the lack of obvious level shifting - it may have been used for TTL level > serial I/O. > > Also, there are lots more passive components on this board than I would > expect for a serial interface board. > > A company with these initials made EPROM programmers, though their logo > was different - but perhaps it changed over time. Maybe this was a very > early interface board to one of their very early programmers - and > perhaps it is missing some of the parts, like connector headers and > resistor packs, and then was re-purposed. > > JRJ > > On 9/30/2015 7:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this one.. > > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board) > > > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial card. > > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working system > > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea how > > to put it to use. Photos are here: > > > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg > > > > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the > > only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is that > > this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have been > > re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the docs > > exist under a name other than MCT? > > > > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks! > > > > -Bill > > -- Chris Elmquist From scaron at umich.edu Thu Oct 1 09:48:51 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:48:51 -0400 Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: Who knew? Not me :O But those are all kind of "piddly" (sorry) ... I don't think they have much "mindshare" or very many actual installations compared to the top-line FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD ... and those BSD repackagers don't have so much potential influence to argue over the basic direction of *BSD, versus say, Red Hat might have with Linux ... I would consider some like m0n0wall and pfSense exceptions because the goal of the project is really to provide a pre-rolled security appliance rather than an OS distribution proper ... same reason I wouldn't call PIAF a Linux distribution, just a pre-rolled Asterisk appliance. Best, Sean On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 1 October 2015 at 02:34, Sean Caron wrote: > > While there are a few "forks" of BSD, there never was a proliferation of > > various "distributions"; that is to say, there is only one, definitive > > FreeBSD, one, definitive NetBSD and one, definitive OpenBSD. All are > > significantly stripped of crud out of the box compared to Linux. > > Well, there's one OpenBSD and one NetBSD. > > Off the top of my head, FreeBSD has begotten: > * DragonflyBSD > * m0n0wall > * PC-BSD > * GhostBSD > * NeXT BSD > > From some cursory research, there are also: > * MidnightBSD > * pfSense > * FreeSBIE > * DesktopBSD > > Whether FreeNAS and NAS4Free count is open to interpretation. > > There are others, too. > > I have played with PC-BSD and GhostBSD, both of which I quite liked > but found too minimal for me compared to Linux. I thought MidnightBSD > was dead but apparently there's recently been a new release, which I > shall investigate. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 1 16:53:36 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC handles Message-ID: <20151001215336.15BB618C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Stephen Lafferty > When I bought the Omnibus prototyping board from Douglas Electronics by > phone a few years ago, the lady I spoke to offered to include handles > ... > I have not found the handles mentioned on their website but I might > have missed it. They do still have a few (~100) left, but you have to contact them, they are indeed not on the Web-site; $.55 each. Grab them while they're there! :-) Noel From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 1 17:01:17 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:01:17 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> Message-ID: <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> On 9/25/2015 4:03 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote: >>> Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the >>> conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with >>> the LastGeneratedArtifactID table. >>> > >> Because my artifact ID's are not always just numbers. In some cases >> they may already be marked on an artifact (though typically not for >> manuals - but this is just the first of a set of such projects, and they >> *are* marked on many of my computer boards). > For anyone who might care, today I decided to move to an auto-increment key on the Manual table, and then use that key in the Manual_Artifact, Manual_File and Manual_Machines tables. (But not the ArtifactID ;) ). It was an outgrowth of doing some data clean up and realizing that a manual from one manufacturer was sometimes related to a machine by a different manufacturer (e.g., ABLE computer boards in Digital Equipment machines). I was going to sometimes end up with two manufacturers in the Manual_Machines table, which was apt to get confusing over time. So I will now have a Manual_MFG column, which is used only in the Manual table, and a Machine_MFG column, used only in the Manual_Machine table. A new Manual_Key will be used in place of the Machine_MFG:Manual_Number pair I had been using all over the place. I still have to finish the model, and will update the PDF I put on my website at some point in the next day or so. JRJ From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:21:34 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:21:34 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: @Chris That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the 80s, controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. @All To answer a few questions: Yes, I am certain this is an S-100 board. It was pulled from the Altair I rebuilt and the PO confirmed that he "had a terminal or something" connected to it. The burned area on the board is where a couple of zener regulators gave it up. You can maybe see that I've replaced them with 3W zeners and 1W resistors. I believe these create +/- 12V supplies for the op-amps and RS-232 levels? I did some tracing on it, not my cup of tea, but I did learn some things.. here's what I found: Each of the two 10-pin headers (I'll call these serial ports) seem to be wired the same, with duplicate component setups for each port. Pins 4 & 6 connect via 175R and 47R resistors, respectively, to one input of an XNOR gate on an LS266 chip. Second input to same XNOR gate seems tied to Vcc via jumpers. Output of XNOR gate has 1K pull-up to Vcc (open collector output) and then connects to pin 20 on the 1014/15 UART which is "SI". So pins 4 & 6 seem to be our serial inputs (RxD) with two different series resistances offered (175R or 47R). Might be an input voltage divider or termination option? Pin 1 connects to the collector of a 2N3906 which is in turn driven by the output of one section of an LM1458 op-amp. The non-inverting input of the op-amp connects back to pin 25 on the UART, which is "SO". I'm not sure what the inverting input of the op-amp is tied to.. perhaps it's part of an enable circuit? But it seems pin 1 is our serial output (TxD). The other port pins are variously tied to resistors, jumpers and/or 74XX logic. These might be our handshaking lines, ring detect, etc. That's all I know so far. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I've got another theory regarding drlegendre's board. > > I happen to know via out-of-band information that he is here in MN. > > There is a company in the Twin Cities called Micro Component Technology > that existed in the 70s, 80s, 90s and still today. > > They make handling and test systems for IC fabrication. > > http://www.mct.com/Company.aspx > > I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts or lingonberries to lefse that his > board is a custom job made by the MN MCT and it went into the computer > control of one of their machines from the early 80s. Something probably > designed in the mid to late 70s. > > The logo on the board matches what I remember seeing on their building > in Shoreview ages ago. > > I don't think it's the MCT that made PC (as in IBM PC) plugins... > > Chris > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 10:14AM -0500), Jay Jaeger wrote: > > I had a look, and it seems to me that there is more going on on this > > board than just serial ports. It is even possible that the system it > > was in had essentially re-purposed the board to use for a serial ports > > in a way that the original designer did not intend. That would explain > > the lack of obvious level shifting - it may have been used for TTL level > > serial I/O. > > > > Also, there are lots more passive components on this board than I would > > expect for a serial interface board. > > > > A company with these initials made EPROM programmers, though their logo > > was different - but perhaps it changed over time. Maybe this was a very > > early interface board to one of their very early programmers - and > > perhaps it is missing some of the parts, like connector headers and > > resistor packs, and then was re-purposed. > > > > JRJ > > > > On 9/30/2015 7:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this > one.. > > > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board) > > > > > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial > card. > > > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working > system > > > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea > how > > > to put it to use. Photos are here: > > > > > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg > > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg > > > > > > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, the > > > only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is > that > > > this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have > been > > > re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the > docs > > > exist under a name other than MCT? > > > > > > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks! > > > > > > -Bill > > > > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 18:27:29 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:27:29 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Now a question.. Can someone give me a quick rundown on how the CPU communicates with this board? Does the board show up as a few bytes in the memory map, like on page zero? Does it connect directly to some registers in the CPU? How does data move from the CPU / buss into & out of the board? In short, how does the computer know where to "find" the board - and how do they converse? I'm only concerend with the serial portion, the rest is still a mystery - the 50 pin headers might be anything from parallel ports to (proprietary?) controller interfaces. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:21 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > @Chris > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the 80s, > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. > > @All > > To answer a few questions: > > Yes, I am certain this is an S-100 board. It was pulled from the Altair I > rebuilt and the PO confirmed that he "had a terminal or something" > connected to it. > > The burned area on the board is where a couple of zener regulators gave it > up. You can maybe see that I've replaced them with 3W zeners and 1W > resistors. I believe these create +/- 12V supplies for the op-amps and > RS-232 levels? > > I did some tracing on it, not my cup of tea, but I did learn some things.. > here's what I found: Each of the two 10-pin headers (I'll call these serial > ports) seem to be wired the same, with duplicate component setups for each > port. > > Pins 4 & 6 connect via 175R and 47R resistors, respectively, to one input > of an XNOR gate on an LS266 chip. Second input to same XNOR gate seems tied > to Vcc via jumpers. Output of XNOR gate has 1K pull-up to Vcc (open > collector output) and then connects to pin 20 on the 1014/15 UART which is > "SI". So pins 4 & 6 seem to be our serial inputs (RxD) with two different > series resistances offered (175R or 47R). Might be an input voltage divider > or termination option? > > Pin 1 connects to the collector of a 2N3906 which is in turn driven by the > output of one section of an LM1458 op-amp. The non-inverting input of the > op-amp connects back to pin 25 on the UART, which is "SO". I'm not sure > what the inverting input of the op-amp is tied to.. perhaps it's part of an > enable circuit? But it seems pin 1 is our serial output (TxD). > > The other port pins are variously tied to resistors, jumpers and/or 74XX > logic. These might be our handshaking lines, ring detect, etc. > > That's all I know so far. > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> I've got another theory regarding drlegendre's board. >> >> I happen to know via out-of-band information that he is here in MN. >> >> There is a company in the Twin Cities called Micro Component Technology >> that existed in the 70s, 80s, 90s and still today. >> >> They make handling and test systems for IC fabrication. >> >> http://www.mct.com/Company.aspx >> >> I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts or lingonberries to lefse that his >> board is a custom job made by the MN MCT and it went into the computer >> control of one of their machines from the early 80s. Something probably >> designed in the mid to late 70s. >> >> The logo on the board matches what I remember seeing on their building >> in Shoreview ages ago. >> >> I don't think it's the MCT that made PC (as in IBM PC) plugins... >> >> Chris >> >> >> On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 10:14AM -0500), Jay Jaeger wrote: >> > I had a look, and it seems to me that there is more going on on this >> > board than just serial ports. It is even possible that the system it >> > was in had essentially re-purposed the board to use for a serial ports >> > in a way that the original designer did not intend. That would explain >> > the lack of obvious level shifting - it may have been used for TTL level >> > serial I/O. >> > >> > Also, there are lots more passive components on this board than I would >> > expect for a serial interface board. >> > >> > A company with these initials made EPROM programmers, though their logo >> > was different - but perhaps it changed over time. Maybe this was a very >> > early interface board to one of their very early programmers - and >> > perhaps it is missing some of the parts, like connector headers and >> > resistor packs, and then was re-purposed. >> > >> > JRJ >> > >> > On 9/30/2015 7:52 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> > > (Months along, posts to several boards / lists, still no help on this >> one.. >> > > so I'm giving it another shot. I'd really like to use this board) >> > > >> > > Been trying to no avail to find any info on this 'MCT' S-100 serial >> card. >> > > I'm pretty sure the card works, as it came from a previously-working >> system >> > > - but all documents are missing, and without the info, I have no idea >> how >> > > to put it to use. Photos are here: >> > > >> > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_01.jpg >> > > https://nerp.net/~legendre/altair/mct_serial_02.jpg >> > > >> > > Other than what I believe is an artwork / batch number on the rear, >> the >> > > only marking is "Assy 105510" on the front silk screen. My hunch is >> that >> > > this may have been a fairly generic 'OEM' type card which could have >> been >> > > re-badged and sold under one or more different names. So perhaps the >> docs >> > > exist under a name other than MCT? >> > > >> > > Any help greatly appreciated - thanks! >> > > >> > > -Bill >> > > >> >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> >> > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 1 18:36:25 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:36:25 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:21PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > @Chris > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the 80s, > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made the board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. :-) If you know the provenance of your Altair, maybe it's possible it was at one time owned by an MCT employee or was actually used at MCT as a development system. There was a strong S-100 and CP/M community in this town in the late 70s, of which I and a number of my Multi-Tech and later CDC colleagues were a part. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 1 18:46:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 16:46:01 -0700 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <560DC5B9.7020407@sydex.com> On 10/01/2015 04:36 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 > and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made > the board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. > :-) > > If you know the provenance of your Altair, maybe it's possible it > was at one time owned by an MCT employee or was actually used at MCT > as a development system. The problem is that there are and have been many, many "MCT" organizations. Just an image search for corporate logos for MCT shows a bewildering array to choose from. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 1 18:56:36 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:56:36 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:27PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > Now a question.. > > Can someone give me a quick rundown on how the CPU communicates with this > board? Does the board show up as a few bytes in the memory map, like on > page zero? Does it connect directly to some registers in the CPU? How does > data move from the CPU / buss into & out of the board? > > In short, how does the computer know where to "find" the board - and how do > they converse? I'm only concerend with the serial portion, the rest is > still a mystery - the 50 pin headers might be anything from parallel ports > to (proprietary?) controller interfaces. This is where I'm holding onto my theory that it is a custom design for a specific purpose-- as I do not see the usual jumpers or DIP switches to set I/O or memory addresses. If it were a generic card built for general purpose use, it would almost certainly have DIP switches to set an I/O or memory address decode. On S-100 systems, you have both I/O and MEMORY space. Things like serial port cards were almost always in I/O space and were decoded within a 256 byte block. Different S-100 systems had their console or other I/O at different addresses and with different chips (8251, 6850, 2661 and other UARTs with internal register sets as well as TR1602, AY-3-1015 and similar "dumb" parts). Without any jumpers or switches to set the decode, you will have to reverse the design to figure out how they did it. It might be I/O mapped but it might be memory mapped since it was likely purpose built for a specific application. Along with this, you will probably not have operating system support that understands how to talk to this setup so you will need to modify a CP/M BIOS or other OS I/O support to understand how to talk to it. The AY-3-1015 UARTs are "dumb". Their framing format is decided by strapping inputs to the chip and then they present a byte-wide input register and output register and strobes to read or write those registers. This would likely be handled by buffers with enables to gate these paths onto the S-100 bus. I concur with Chuck that there were and are a lot of "MCT" companies. I just have a high confidence that the logo on Bill's board matches the logos I am familiar with for the local MCT here in town. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 19:30:47 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 19:30:47 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: @Chris / All Unfortunately, I've never eyeballed the logo of the locally-based MCT corp so I can't comment on it, but again, it's an intriguing thought. And yes, it's quite possible that the PO knew or ever purchased this Altair from an employee there. He (PO) indicated that he bought the system second-hand, in the early 1980s, from an engineering colleague who worked elsewhere in the locality. And the PO is the kind of guy who would have hacked-out the cheapest and most expedient solution to whatever was presented. Don't get me wrong, the guy is quite sharp and well-educated, but just a real practical 'bailing wire and duct tape' kinda guy.. half EE, half farmer or something. ;-) Oh - about it being a 'kit'.. I gave a good look, and it's hard to say for sure, but the board +is+ totally hand-soldered. But the work is excellent. So it's either a well-built kit or a smaller-run factory board - but it wasn't wave / batch soldered. Also, I'm curious about the 50-pin headers.. why were they never installed? All of the other work was done, all the expensive parts (chips) are in-place - so why not a couple of cheap headers? Yes, a few resistor SIPs are gone, as is one chip missing, but still, you get the point. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:27PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > Now a question.. > > > > Can someone give me a quick rundown on how the CPU communicates with this > > board? Does the board show up as a few bytes in the memory map, like on > > page zero? Does it connect directly to some registers in the CPU? How > does > > data move from the CPU / buss into & out of the board? > > > > In short, how does the computer know where to "find" the board - and how > do > > they converse? I'm only concerend with the serial portion, the rest is > > still a mystery - the 50 pin headers might be anything from parallel > ports > > to (proprietary?) controller interfaces. > > This is where I'm holding onto my theory that it is a custom design for > a specific purpose-- as I do not see the usual jumpers or DIP switches > to set I/O or memory addresses. If it were a generic card built for > general purpose use, it would almost certainly have DIP switches to set > an I/O or memory address decode. > > On S-100 systems, you have both I/O and MEMORY space. Things like serial > port cards were almost always in I/O space and were decoded within a 256 > byte block. Different S-100 systems had their console or other I/O at > different addresses and with different chips (8251, 6850, 2661 and other > UARTs with internal register sets as well as TR1602, AY-3-1015 and similar > "dumb" parts). > > Without any jumpers or switches to set the decode, you will have to > reverse the design to figure out how they did it. It might be I/O > mapped but it might be memory mapped since it was likely purpose built > for a specific application. Along with this, you will probably not have > operating system support that understands how to talk to this setup so > you will need to modify a CP/M BIOS or other OS I/O support to understand > how to talk to it. > > The AY-3-1015 UARTs are "dumb". Their framing format is decided by > strapping inputs to the chip and then they present a byte-wide input > register and output register and strobes to read or write those registers. > This would likely be handled by buffers with enables to gate these paths > onto the S-100 bus. > > I concur with Chuck that there were and are a lot of "MCT" companies. > I just have a high confidence that the logo on Bill's board matches the > logos I am familiar with for the local MCT here in town. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 1 20:26:25 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:26:25 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151002012625.GU3034@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 07:30PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > @Chris / All > > Unfortunately, I've never eyeballed the logo of the locally-based MCT corp > so I can't comment on it, but again, it's an intriguing thought. And yes, > it's quite possible that the PO knew or ever purchased this Altair from an > employee there. He (PO) indicated that he bought the system second-hand, in > the early 1980s, from an engineering colleague who worked elsewhere in the > locality. So, I'm still betting lingonberries to lefse that the PO that the PO got the machine from might have worked at MCT and possibly even designed said board and so knew how to use it in an Altair while it was normally used in a more dedicated, purpose built system. I know for a fact that the local power company (called NSP in the day) was doing a lot of work with S-100 systems for monitoring and control applications in '78 and '79. So, the word was out and a lot of these outfits were seeing the commercial upside to "personal computers" in the late 70s around here. S-100 machines were easy to get by then. > And the PO is the kind of guy who would have hacked-out the cheapest and > most expedient solution to whatever was presented. Don't get me wrong, the > guy is quite sharp and well-educated, but just a real practical 'bailing > wire and duct tape' kinda guy.. half EE, half farmer or something. ;-) And so his fishing buddy gave him a board that "fell out" of the lab at work and he promptly put that baby into service in his Altair. There were a lot of S-100 machines built around here, with 16K or 32K of 2102 SRAMs, all of which came out of the QA department at CDC as an example. Of course I am offering all of this as theory but having lived these exact experiences, I feel like it's the truth :-) > Oh - about it being a 'kit'.. I gave a good look, and it's hard to say for > sure, but the board +is+ totally hand-soldered. But the work is excellent. > So it's either a well-built kit or a smaller-run factory board - but it > wasn't wave / batch soldered. I know that Multi-Tech made and shipped tens of thousands of modems throughout the 70s and 80s that were all hand soldered by some nice ladies that worked in a very large room at the back of the company in New Brighton, MN. I don't think you start to see a lot of flow or wave soldering for products made around here until the mid to late 80s. > Also, I'm curious about the 50-pin headers.. why were they never installed? > All of the other work was done, all the expensive parts (chips) are > in-place - so why not a couple of cheap headers? Yes, a few resistor SIPs > are gone, as is one chip missing, but still, you get the point. Good chance those connectors were the most expensive part on the board then. Might have also been a build option depending on how the board was used and this one was nabbed from a situation where those interfaces weren't used. Chris > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:27PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > > Now a question.. > > > > > > Can someone give me a quick rundown on how the CPU communicates with this > > > board? Does the board show up as a few bytes in the memory map, like on > > > page zero? Does it connect directly to some registers in the CPU? How > > does > > > data move from the CPU / buss into & out of the board? > > > > > > In short, how does the computer know where to "find" the board - and how > > do > > > they converse? I'm only concerend with the serial portion, the rest is > > > still a mystery - the 50 pin headers might be anything from parallel > > ports > > > to (proprietary?) controller interfaces. > > > > This is where I'm holding onto my theory that it is a custom design for > > a specific purpose-- as I do not see the usual jumpers or DIP switches > > to set I/O or memory addresses. If it were a generic card built for > > general purpose use, it would almost certainly have DIP switches to set > > an I/O or memory address decode. > > > > On S-100 systems, you have both I/O and MEMORY space. Things like serial > > port cards were almost always in I/O space and were decoded within a 256 > > byte block. Different S-100 systems had their console or other I/O at > > different addresses and with different chips (8251, 6850, 2661 and other > > UARTs with internal register sets as well as TR1602, AY-3-1015 and similar > > "dumb" parts). > > > > Without any jumpers or switches to set the decode, you will have to > > reverse the design to figure out how they did it. It might be I/O > > mapped but it might be memory mapped since it was likely purpose built > > for a specific application. Along with this, you will probably not have > > operating system support that understands how to talk to this setup so > > you will need to modify a CP/M BIOS or other OS I/O support to understand > > how to talk to it. > > > > The AY-3-1015 UARTs are "dumb". Their framing format is decided by > > strapping inputs to the chip and then they present a byte-wide input > > register and output register and strobes to read or write those registers. > > This would likely be handled by buffers with enables to gate these paths > > onto the S-100 bus. > > > > I concur with Chuck that there were and are a lot of "MCT" companies. > > I just have a high confidence that the logo on Bill's board matches the > > logos I am familiar with for the local MCT here in town. > > > > Chris > > -- > > Chris Elmquist > > -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 20:54:16 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:54:16 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151002012625.GU3034@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> <20151002012625.GU3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Here's more grist for the mill. I did contact and receive a reply from gentleman Herb Johnson at retrocomputing. I hope he doesn't mind if I quote his comments here.. they seem quite pertinent and they reflect or complement many of our working assumptions. Herb Sez: "Warning: I'm offering advice, which I do not warrant in any way. I am not responsible for loss, injury or damage to you or your equipment or software. Use any information, advice or suggestions I make, entirely at your own risk. Always work with caution. 1) identify big chips. AY-3-1015 is a UART, so is AY-3-1014. The crystal is probably a baud rate generator. Those two small connectors near the UART are probably serial ports. If you trace the lines and chips near those connectors, you can decide what some of the lines are. the UARTs have transmit and recieve pins so you can trace through from there. My guess is that the serial connectors are NOT "RS-232" because of all the resistors and caps. 2) identify connectors. There's two 50-pin connectors but they are not "populated". I see 74LS373 and '374 chips, those are 8-bit I/O devices. You can trace those, probably, to those connectors. This suggests the connectors are "parallel ports". 3) look at the S-100 connector. there's not that many S-100 pins wired to the board. That suggests it's an I/O board, which often only uses the lower 8-bits of address (and of course both 8-bit data line sets). 4) follow the traces. So it's likely this is a serial/parallel I/O card. If you follow a few address lines from the S-100, you'll find where they are decoded to specific I/O addresses, and see probably some jumpers to change that address. 5) tests. Before plugging the board into the bus, check the DC power lines for shorts. Check with an ohmmeter across all "tantalum" capacitors for shorts (under 100 ohms about) and replace those caps. When you apply power, confirm the regulator produces 5.0V. Be prepared to shut down your S-100 bus power at ANY sign of heat or smoke - and identify immediately any burned component. I often use a Variac to control power to a S-100 card or system. ---------- I recognize "MCT" as a brand of S-100 boards, but I've not owned docs for them, I don't believe. When you see MCT branded cards discussed, you might ask owners about documentation. I should create a list of undocumented S-100 cards, just for these kinds of boards. Let me know if any of the above information is helpful and any results from checking out your card as suggested. OK? Good hunting!" Thanks again, Herb - your time is sincerely appreciated! Nice to know a guy like that still has time for a newbish enterprise as this.. ;-) On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 07:30PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > @Chris / All > > > > Unfortunately, I've never eyeballed the logo of the locally-based MCT > corp > > so I can't comment on it, but again, it's an intriguing thought. And yes, > > it's quite possible that the PO knew or ever purchased this Altair from > an > > employee there. He (PO) indicated that he bought the system second-hand, > in > > the early 1980s, from an engineering colleague who worked elsewhere in > the > > locality. > > So, I'm still betting lingonberries to lefse that the PO that the PO > got the machine from might have worked at MCT and possibly even designed > said board and so knew how to use it in an Altair while it was normally > used in a more dedicated, purpose built system. > > I know for a fact that the local power company (called NSP in the day) > was doing a lot of work with S-100 systems for monitoring and control > applications in '78 and '79. So, the word was out and a lot of these > outfits were seeing the commercial upside to "personal computers" in > the late 70s around here. S-100 machines were easy to get by then. > > > And the PO is the kind of guy who would have hacked-out the cheapest and > > most expedient solution to whatever was presented. Don't get me wrong, > the > > guy is quite sharp and well-educated, but just a real practical 'bailing > > wire and duct tape' kinda guy.. half EE, half farmer or something. ;-) > > And so his fishing buddy gave him a board that "fell out" of the lab at > work and he promptly put that baby into service in his Altair. > > There were a lot of S-100 machines built around here, with 16K or 32K > of 2102 SRAMs, all of which came out of the QA department at CDC as > an example. > > Of course I am offering all of this as theory but having lived these > exact experiences, I feel like it's the truth :-) > > > Oh - about it being a 'kit'.. I gave a good look, and it's hard to say > for > > sure, but the board +is+ totally hand-soldered. But the work is > excellent. > > So it's either a well-built kit or a smaller-run factory board - but it > > wasn't wave / batch soldered. > > I know that Multi-Tech made and shipped tens of thousands of modems > throughout the 70s and 80s that were all hand soldered by some nice > ladies that worked in a very large room at the back of the company in > New Brighton, MN. I don't think you start to see a lot of flow or wave > soldering for products made around here until the mid to late 80s. > > > Also, I'm curious about the 50-pin headers.. why were they never > installed? > > All of the other work was done, all the expensive parts (chips) are > > in-place - so why not a couple of cheap headers? Yes, a few resistor SIPs > > are gone, as is one chip missing, but still, you get the point. > > Good chance those connectors were the most expensive part on the board > then. Might have also been a build option depending on how the board > was used and this one was nabbed from a situation where those interfaces > weren't used. > > Chris > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:27PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Now a question.. > > > > > > > > Can someone give me a quick rundown on how the CPU communicates with > this > > > > board? Does the board show up as a few bytes in the memory map, like > on > > > > page zero? Does it connect directly to some registers in the CPU? How > > > does > > > > data move from the CPU / buss into & out of the board? > > > > > > > > In short, how does the computer know where to "find" the board - and > how > > > do > > > > they converse? I'm only concerend with the serial portion, the rest > is > > > > still a mystery - the 50 pin headers might be anything from parallel > > > ports > > > > to (proprietary?) controller interfaces. > > > > > > This is where I'm holding onto my theory that it is a custom design for > > > a specific purpose-- as I do not see the usual jumpers or DIP switches > > > to set I/O or memory addresses. If it were a generic card built for > > > general purpose use, it would almost certainly have DIP switches to set > > > an I/O or memory address decode. > > > > > > On S-100 systems, you have both I/O and MEMORY space. Things like > serial > > > port cards were almost always in I/O space and were decoded within a > 256 > > > byte block. Different S-100 systems had their console or other I/O at > > > different addresses and with different chips (8251, 6850, 2661 and > other > > > UARTs with internal register sets as well as TR1602, AY-3-1015 and > similar > > > "dumb" parts). > > > > > > Without any jumpers or switches to set the decode, you will have to > > > reverse the design to figure out how they did it. It might be I/O > > > mapped but it might be memory mapped since it was likely purpose built > > > for a specific application. Along with this, you will probably not > have > > > operating system support that understands how to talk to this setup so > > > you will need to modify a CP/M BIOS or other OS I/O support to > understand > > > how to talk to it. > > > > > > The AY-3-1015 UARTs are "dumb". Their framing format is decided by > > > strapping inputs to the chip and then they present a byte-wide input > > > register and output register and strobes to read or write those > registers. > > > This would likely be handled by buffers with enables to gate these > paths > > > onto the S-100 bus. > > > > > > I concur with Chuck that there were and are a lot of "MCT" companies. > > > I just have a high confidence that the logo on Bill's board matches the > > > logos I am familiar with for the local MCT here in town. > > > > > > Chris > > > -- > > > Chris Elmquist > > > > > -- > Chris Elmquist > From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 1 23:31:37 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:31:37 -0500 Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151002043137.GA18167@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 01:45:27PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, there's one OpenBSD and one NetBSD. > > Off the top of my head, FreeBSD has begotten: FreeBSD keeps a "BSD family tree" chart in ASCII. Of course it is not complete, and open to disagreement. But here it is from the commit repo: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/share/misc/bsd-family-tree?view=markup mcl From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 00:04:21 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 01:04:21 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> Message-ID: Coming up with a schema that works with multiple manufacturers is the big challenge. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 9/25/2015 4:03 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > >>> Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the > >>> conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with > >>> the LastGeneratedArtifactID table. > >>> > > > >> Because my artifact ID's are not always just numbers. In some cases > >> they may already be marked on an artifact (though typically not for > >> manuals - but this is just the first of a set of such projects, and they > >> *are* marked on many of my computer boards). > > > > For anyone who might care, today I decided to move to an auto-increment > key on the Manual table, and then use that key in the Manual_Artifact, > Manual_File and Manual_Machines tables. (But not the ArtifactID ;) ). > > It was an outgrowth of doing some data clean up and realizing that a > manual from one manufacturer was sometimes related to a machine by a > different manufacturer (e.g., ABLE computer boards in Digital Equipment > machines). I was going to sometimes end up with two manufacturers in > the Manual_Machines table, which was apt to get confusing over time. > > So I will now have a Manual_MFG column, which is used only in the Manual > table, and a Machine_MFG column, used only in the Manual_Machine table. > A new Manual_Key will be used in place of the Machine_MFG:Manual_Number > pair I had been using all over the place. > > I still have to finish the model, and will update the PDF I put on my > website at some point in the next day or so. > > JRJ > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 00:58:00 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:58:00 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001235636.GQ3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: "My guess would be cost. Those headers back then were somewhat expensive due to the heavy (30) gold plating." Wow. I never even considered that a header could be more costly than a 74LSXXX chip - doesn't make sense. But then again, I wasn't in the field back in that day. On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > > Also, I'm curious about the 50-pin headers.. why were they never >> installed? All of the other work was done, all the expensive parts (chips) >> are in-place - so why not a couple of cheap headers? Yes, a few resistor >> SIPs are gone, as is one chip missing, but still, you get the point. >> > > My guess would be cost. Those headers back then were somewhat expensive > due to the heavy (30) gold plating. > > I found out today that as of August 3M has discontinued their 3000 series > gray box headers and the last time buy on them was October 1st. They are > replacing them with the D3000 series made with black fiberglass reinforced > nylon instead of the gray nylon they've always used. (3000 series datasheet > attached) > > The part numbers for the 50-pin headers without eject levers for 1/16" > thick pc board would be 3433-5002. Mouser shows some stock, however their > system may or may not be correct and they might try to substitute the newer > D3000 series. > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M/3433-5002/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugF4%2fyP%252bp8%252b57ygnI%2fCWx880e6iwa7L1bU7rpqbpN%252bwEQ%3d%3d > > I also spotted some 3433-5402 on eBay at a reasonable price that might > work, however those use a roll pin to attach the eject levers, so they are > much harder to remove than the ones that used snap-in eject levers. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-3433-Locking-Ejector-Header-50-pin-right-angle-gold-plated-0-1-tails-1-x-1-/201386884555 > > Also, don't forget about C2. It and C1 were probably a matched set for the > crystal. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 02:12:11 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:12:11 -0700 Subject: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Message-ID: <013b01d0fce1$a91dfba0$fb59f2e0$@gmail.com> Henk, Congrats! What a buy. Gorgeous super-clean machine. The Juki looks almost like a copy of an IBM 029, down to the angled styling and stacker section. Except of course for the color. Marc ============================ From: Henk Gooijen Subject: Re: IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in Germany I picked up the Decision Data card puncher last Tuesday. Heavy stuff! I helped the seller move the orange colored card punch. It's a Juki. Also *very heavy*. BTW, the keyboard of the Decision Data puncher is connected with a cable; you can move the keyboard to a comfortable position. IIRC, the keyboard of the Juki is fixed placed on the desk. - Henk, PA8PDP From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Oct 2 04:32:34 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:32:34 +0200 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151002093234.GA33255@beast.freibergnet.de> Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:21PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > @Chris > > > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: > > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the 80s, > > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, > > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. > > They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 > and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made the > board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. :-) > [..] I'm sure, that's not the company that build that S100 Board. Ranzin, where mct.net is located, is former eastern germany (GDR) area (as my home is too) and S100 Buisses where simply not used before here before 1989. Ther embedded control experience in this timeframe will be mostly an Z80 compatibles (later Z8 too) an K1520 Bus systems. The AY3-1015 however was available as TESLA MHB1012 or so, not as GI part. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 09:01:03 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:01:03 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive Message-ID: A very generous list member just gave me a SPARCStation 20 with SunOS 4.1.4 on it. I thought the first thing I would do would be to image its hard drive in my Linux PC, in case I ever wanted to start fresh. I assume that if I make a bitwise copy of it, I can later write those same bits out. But now I'm wondering what would happen if the disk developed marked bad sectors; would that make an exact image impossible to write onto it? I have a disc image of that release, but unfortunately no SCSI CD-ROM. It occurs to me that I could perhaps make a SunOS filesystem on Linux and untar things from either the install CD or the image of the original HD into it, but I don't know if that would produce something actually bootable. I'm hoping there would be some way within Linux to capture the actual format of the filesystem to use as a skeleton. Does anyone know if this is possible (viz. creating a valid, bootable filesystem and untarring files into it)? Or should I just invest in a CD-ROM drive? -- Eric Christopherson From abs at absd.org Fri Oct 2 09:17:18 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 15:17:18 +0100 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 October 2015 at 15:01, Eric Christopherson wrote: > A very generous list member just gave me a SPARCStation 20 with SunOS > 4.1.4 on it. I thought the first thing I would do would be to image > its hard drive in my Linux PC, in case I ever wanted to start fresh. > > I assume that if I make a bitwise copy of it, I can later write those > same bits out. But now I'm wondering what would happen if the disk > developed marked bad sectors; would that make an exact image > impossible to write onto it? The SCSI drives will transparently map out bad sectors, presenting a apparently defect free disk (except while a sector as actually failing :) so the image should be fine to any SCSI drive of that size or larger (or an sd2scsi type device) > I have a disc image of that release, but unfortunately no SCSI CD-ROM. > It occurs to me that I could perhaps make a SunOS filesystem on Linux > and untar things from either the install CD or the image of the > original HD into it, but I don't know if that would produce something > actually bootable. I'm hoping there would be some way within Linux to > capture the actual format of the filesystem to use as a skeleton. > > Does anyone know if this is possible (viz. creating a valid, bootable > filesystem and untarring files into it)? Or should I just invest in a > CD-ROM drive? You can netboot SunOS on a sparc, which certainly used to be possible under Linux, using files from the CD (IIRC) In extremis you could always netboot NetBSD on it and use that to setup the disk, but you *should* be able to do it all from a Linux server, modulus some possible annoyances getting a rarpd and bootparamd to build on recent Linux :) From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 2 10:20:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 10:20:33 -0500 Subject: Anybody need some Tri-lead? In-Reply-To: <56084738.4020103@pico-systems.com> References: <20150927190513.D7F7418C10D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56084738.4020103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <560EA0C1.2090007@pico-systems.com> I have a box of IBM Tri-lead pulled out of a 370/145 when it got torn down for spares. It is essentially the total amount of tri-lead that was in the machine, a full paper box of it. Anybody have a need for some? Anybody got an MST machine running that they need spare wire for? It is in St. Louis, MO, USA. Jon From Mark at Misty.com Fri Oct 2 10:23:53 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151002152353.GA18187@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 03:17:18PM +0100, David Brownlee wrote: > On 2 October 2015 at 15:01, Eric Christopherson > wrote: > > A very generous list member just gave me a SPARCStation 20 with SunOS > > 4.1.4 on it. I thought the first thing I would do would be to image > > its hard drive in my Linux PC, in case I ever wanted to start fresh. > > > > I assume that if I make a bitwise copy of it, I can later write those > > same bits out. But now I'm wondering what would happen if the disk > > developed marked bad sectors; would that make an exact image > > impossible to write onto it? Years ago I contributed part of a SunOS-4 FAQ on installing SunOS "by hand" extacting the tar files from the distribution CD. It is easy, provided you have the files, and have a way of partitioning and extracting them onto the destination drive, and can write the provided bootblock onto the drive. I'll re-post that here once I find it, unless someone finds it via Google. > > I have a disc image of that release, but unfortunately no SCSI CD-ROM. > > It occurs to me that I could perhaps make a SunOS filesystem on Linux > > and untar things from either the install CD or the image of the > > original HD into it, but I don't know if that would produce something > > actually bootable. I'm hoping there would be some way within Linux to > > capture the actual format of the filesystem to use as a skeleton. ... > > Does anyone know if this is possible (viz. creating a valid, bootable > > filesystem and untarring files into it)? Or should I just invest in a > > CD-ROM drive? I'd think it would be pretty easy to find a SCSI cdrom drive for next to nothing these days. I recently discarded a large quantitiy of them. Some drives needed to by jumpered for 512 byte sectors to boot older Suns, but some just worked right automatically. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 10:59:05 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 10:59:05 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> Message-ID: <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: > Coming up with a schema that works with multiple manufacturers is the big > challenge. > Not sure it is that big a challenge. Perfection is not required. Just the ability to find stuff later. My schema currently has manual manufacturer - the original manufacturer of the machine, and then each artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. Consider the case of Apollo which got bought by HP. For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer is always Apollo. For a 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always HP. However a given copy of a manual may have been published by Apollo (older) or HP (newer) - with the very same number. The schema supports that. (New schema posted at http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf ). JRJ From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 11:22:09 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:22:09 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151002093234.GA33255@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> <20151002093234.GA33255@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: I think Holm nailed that one. The logo is probably just a coincidence, as it's pretty safe to say this board didn't originate in the 'Bad Old Days' of the DDR.. ;-) Seems like MCT in Shoreview, MN is our best working hypothesis. Would be nice to come across an advert or other piece of corporate ephemera from the early 1980s, to see what logo they used. On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:21PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > > @Chris > > > > > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: > > > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the > 80s, > > > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, > > > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. > > > > They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 > > and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made the > > board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. :-) > > > [..] > > I'm sure, that's not the company that build that S100 Board. Ranzin, where > mct.net is located, is former eastern germany (GDR) area (as my home is > too) > and S100 Buisses where simply not used before here before 1989. > Ther embedded control experience in this timeframe will be mostly an Z80 > compatibles (later Z8 too) an K1520 Bus systems. The AY3-1015 however was > available as TESLA MHB1012 or so, not as GI part. > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 11:39:03 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:39:03 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 9:17 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 2 October 2015 at 15:01, Eric Christopherson > wrote: >> A very generous list member just gave me a SPARCStation 20 with SunOS >> 4.1.4 on it. I thought the first thing I would do would be to image >> its hard drive in my Linux PC, in case I ever wanted to start fresh. >> >> I assume that if I make a bitwise copy of it, I can later write those >> same bits out. But now I'm wondering what would happen if the disk >> developed marked bad sectors; would that make an exact image >> impossible to write onto it? > > The SCSI drives will transparently map out bad sectors, presenting a > apparently defect free disk (except while a sector as actually failing > :) so the image should be fine to any SCSI drive of that size or > larger (or an sd2scsi type device) Well, I guess what I'm wondering is: if the SCSI controller or the disk's PCB exposes an interface to the disk that makes it appear defect-free, what happens when an OS tries to write to sectors that actually have defects? I guess this is a good question for any sort of hard disk, not just vintage or Sun ones. My understanding was that yes, this was mostly transparent, but that at minimum the number of usable sectors reported to the OS would go down as sectors get marked bad. > >> I have a disc image of that release, but unfortunately no SCSI CD-ROM. >> It occurs to me that I could perhaps make a SunOS filesystem on Linux >> and untar things from either the install CD or the image of the >> original HD into it, but I don't know if that would produce something >> actually bootable. I'm hoping there would be some way within Linux to >> capture the actual format of the filesystem to use as a skeleton. >> >> Does anyone know if this is possible (viz. creating a valid, bootable >> filesystem and untarring files into it)? Or should I just invest in a >> CD-ROM drive? > > You can netboot SunOS on a sparc, which certainly used to be possible > under Linux, using files from the CD (IIRC) > > In extremis you could always netboot NetBSD on it and use that to > setup the disk, but you *should* be able to do it all from a Linux > server, modulus some possible annoyances getting a rarpd and > bootparamd to build on recent Linux :) Oh, I hadn't thought that far. Sounds feasible. (I guess I could get a CD-ROM as the other respondent said, but I don't see that I'd have any other use for it, so even if it's cheap I don't feel like I *need* it.) Also, you're the first person I've seen to use the *nominative* of modulus as a preposition :) -- Eric Christopherson From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 2 11:44:39 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:44:39 -0500 Subject: 1985-1989 IBM terminals Message-ID: <015c01d0fd31$a17ccd40$e47667c0$@com> Is anyone interested in IBM terminals from roughly 1985-1989? There is a complete system, probably no keyboards. Located upper Midwest US. Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ccmp at impakt.net Fri Oct 2 10:59:34 2015 From: ccmp at impakt.net (Justin Dj Scott) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 10:59:34 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> So, lets say you have your disk already partitioned the way you want it, and you have a swap (partition c) partition of equal or greater size of your install iso (actually not very likely, but lets just say that's so). You can create a filesystem on partition c from another machine, put your CD image onto that partition, then from the OK prompt, tell it to boot from partition c of that drive. The CD will boot, and then you can install from there - assuming that the installer gets everything off the partition before it decides to setup swap. *Disclaimer: I've never tried this with SunOS, because A) I had the cd and CDROM[1], and B) I never had a swap partition that was 10x my max installed ram, however, I have done an OpenBSD install on a sun4u arch by this same methodology, copying the minimalist installer image to the c partition, booting from it, and then when it needed packages, it pulled the packages from the network. [1] FYI, in case you're not aware, SPARC machines require a CDROM that will do the less common 512-byte sector size. This means, if your CDROM works on anything other than a Sun machine, it won't work on a Sun machine. If it does work on a Sun machine, it won't work on any(most) other machines. There are many SCSI CDROM drives that can easily be changed over, either by jumper blocks or by cutting or soldering solder-pad jumpers. For instance, back in my SunOS4 days, I had a Toshiba CDROM external that was intended to be used by a PC. Open it up, cut a "half moon" solder jumper, and voila, it worked perfectly with a Sun. cheers, dj Eric Christopherson(echristopherson) wrote: > A very generous list member just gave me a SPARCStation 20 with SunOS > 4.1.4 on it. I thought the first thing I would do would be to image > its hard drive in my Linux PC, in case I ever wanted to start fresh. > > I assume that if I make a bitwise copy of it, I can later write those > same bits out. But now I'm wondering what would happen if the disk > developed marked bad sectors; would that make an exact image > impossible to write onto it? > > I have a disc image of that release, but unfortunately no SCSI CD-ROM. > It occurs to me that I could perhaps make a SunOS filesystem on Linux > and untar things from either the install CD or the image of the > original HD into it, but I don't know if that would produce something > actually bootable. I'm hoping there would be some way within Linux to > capture the actual format of the filesystem to use as a skeleton. > > Does anyone know if this is possible (viz. creating a valid, bootable > filesystem and untarring files into it)? Or should I just invest in a > CD-ROM drive? > > -- > Eric Christopherson From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 12:26:31 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:26:31 -0500 Subject: 1985-1989 IBM terminals In-Reply-To: <015c01d0fd31$a17ccd40$e47667c0$@com> References: <015c01d0fd31$a17ccd40$e47667c0$@com> Message-ID: <560EBE47.4040204@charter.net> What sort of complete system? (I am in Madison, WI) JRJ On 10/2/2015 11:44 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > Is anyone interested in IBM terminals from roughly 1985-1989? There is a > complete system, probably no keyboards. Located upper Midwest US. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 2 12:31:26 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:31:26 -0500 Subject: 1985-1989 IBM terminals In-Reply-To: <560EBE47.4040204@charter.net> References: <015c01d0fd31$a17ccd40$e47667c0$@com> <560EBE47.4040204@charter.net> Message-ID: <019801d0fd38$2a961860$7fc24920$@com> He says the servers are about knee tall. These are not yellowed, in nice shape. I am waiting for counts and model or part numbers. More than 2 pallets worth of equipment. The servers will cost because of the gold in the boards. The monitors he said could go free to a museum. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 12:27 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 1985-1989 IBM terminals What sort of complete system? (I am in Madison, WI) JRJ On 10/2/2015 11:44 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > Is anyone interested in IBM terminals from roughly 1985-1989? There is a > complete system, probably no keyboards. Located upper Midwest US. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 2 12:46:38 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 13:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: BeBox front plastics, IO riser Message-ID: Hello all, I have a BeBox 66mhz that is missing the front plastic parts and the IO riser that has all the ports on it. By any chance does anyone have these parts available for sale? - Ethan -- Ethan O'Toole From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 2 12:51:52 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:51:52 -0500 Subject: update on IBM terminals Message-ID: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. The keyboards are Model M. The server is a 3174-11R He did not give counts. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:13:40 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 19:13:40 +0100 Subject: update on IBM terminals In-Reply-To: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> References: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> Message-ID: <024601d0fd3e$11a04460$34e0cd20$@gmail.com> Why are these always in the USA? I wouldn't have thought there was much gold in a 3174-11R I think there are only a couple of boards in them. The 3174-11R is normally connected to the host via SDLC and as such isn't usable "as-is" unless you have a Mainframe with an HDLC or BiSync cards. I Think it will take a token ring or Ethernet card and with that it can be connected to Mainframe emulation via TCP/IP. http://www.argecy.com/index.php?p=2389 The terminals are pretty much useless you have a controller (or Mainframe with on-board controller, like the one Dave McGuire has I think) to do anything with the terminals as they have a co-ax port that runs at 1.5MBps (I think that's the speed) and both the physical (voltages, impedances) and logical (protocols) interfaces between the terminal and the controllers is pretty much undocumented. http://www.argecy.com/index.php?pfile=3472 With a controller and TCP/IP they can be used onto Hercules or some of the other Mainframe emulators.. Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Croxton > Sent: 02 October 2015 18:52 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: update on IBM terminals > > The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. > > The keyboards are Model M. > > The server is a 3174-11R > > > > He did not give counts. > > > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 2 13:29:49 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> Message-ID: <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > So, lets say you have your disk already partitioned the way you want it, and$ (In passing: please don't use paragraph-length lines.) It's been a while, but I'm fairly sure 4.1.x swapped onto b, with c being the whole-disk partition. (That's on disks. CDs are a completely different kettle of fish.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:31:30 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:31:30 -0400 Subject: update on IBM terminals References: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> <024601d0fd3e$11a04460$34e0cd20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B144DD42A5B4E8EBB45F2622D45ACF5@310e2> The keyboards are probably worth the most ;-) 321565328456 262061662693 Or how about this one for only $1000: 262068557786 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:13 PM Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals > Why are these always in the USA? > > I wouldn't have thought there was much gold in a > 3174-11R I think there are > only a couple of boards in them. The 3174-11R is > normally connected to the > host via SDLC and as such isn't usable "as-is" > unless you have a Mainframe > with an HDLC or BiSync cards. I Think it will > take a token ring or Ethernet > card and with that it can be connected to > Mainframe emulation via TCP/IP. > > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?p=2389 > > The terminals are pretty much useless you have > a controller (or Mainframe > with on-board controller, like the one Dave > McGuire has I think) to do > anything with the terminals as they have a co-ax > port that runs at 1.5MBps > (I think that's the speed) and both the physical > (voltages, impedances) and > logical (protocols) interfaces between the > terminal and the controllers is > pretty much undocumented. > > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?pfile=3472 > > With a controller and TCP/IP they can be used > onto Hercules or some of the > other Mainframe emulators.. > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of Cindy >> Croxton >> Sent: 02 October 2015 18:52 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts' >> >> Subject: update on IBM terminals >> >> The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. >> >> The keyboards are Model M. >> >> The server is a 3174-11R >> >> >> >> He did not give counts. >> >> >> >> Cindy >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by >> Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:38:58 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:38:58 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> Message-ID: <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. the contents of the Location field in three places, Location and Manual_Type only containing one field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? Looks like I'll have to brush up on database design... ;-) m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" To: Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >> Coming up with a schema that works with >> multiple manufacturers is the big >> challenge. >> > > Not sure it is that big a challenge. Perfection > is not required. Just > the ability to find stuff later. My schema > currently has manual > manufacturer - the original manufacturer of the > machine, and then each > artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. > > Consider the case of Apollo which got bought by > HP. > > For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer > is always Apollo. For a > 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always > HP. However a given copy > of a manual may have been published by Apollo > (older) or HP (newer) - > with the very same number. The schema supports > that. > > (New schema posted at > http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf ) > . > > JRJ > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:41:32 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 19:41:32 +0100 Subject: update on IBM terminals In-Reply-To: <1B144DD42A5B4E8EBB45F2622D45ACF5@310e2> References: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> <024601d0fd3e$11a04460$34e0cd20$@gmail.com> <1B144DD42A5B4E8EBB45F2622D45ACF5@310e2> Message-ID: <02cf01d0fd41$f58881d0$e0998570$@gmail.com> The keyboards go for stupid amounts, and get butchered... .. but note those you found are 12PF key boards with PS/2 jacks. The ones on the terminals will be 24PF Key, with a socket with a screw retaining ring.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein > Sent: 02 October 2015 19:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: update on IBM terminals > > The keyboards are probably worth the most ;-) > > 321565328456 > 262061662693 > > Or how about this one for only $1000: > 262068557786 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave G4UGM" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:13 PM > Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals > > > > Why are these always in the USA? > > > > I wouldn't have thought there was much gold in a 3174-11R I think > > there are only a couple of boards in them. The 3174-11R is normally > > connected to the host via SDLC and as such isn't usable "as-is" > > unless you have a Mainframe > > with an HDLC or BiSync cards. I Think it will take a token ring or > > Ethernet card and with that it can be connected to Mainframe emulation > > via TCP/IP. > > > > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?p=2389 > > > > The terminals are pretty much useless you have a controller (or > > Mainframe with on-board controller, like the one Dave McGuire has I > > think) to do anything with the terminals as they have a co-ax port > > that runs at 1.5MBps (I think that's the speed) and both the physical > > (voltages, impedances) and logical (protocols) interfaces between the > > terminal and the controllers is pretty much undocumented. > > > > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?pfile=3472 > > > > With a controller and TCP/IP they can be used onto Hercules or some of > > the other Mainframe emulators.. > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton > >> Sent: 02 October 2015 18:52 > >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > >> > >> Subject: update on IBM terminals > >> > >> The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. > >> > >> The keyboards are Model M. > >> > >> The server is a 3174-11R > >> > >> > >> > >> He did not give counts. > >> > >> > >> > >> Cindy > >> > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:50:25 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:50:25 -0400 Subject: update on IBM terminals References: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> <024601d0fd3e$11a04460$34e0cd20$@gmail.com> <1B144DD42A5B4E8EBB45F2622D45ACF5@310e2> <02cf01d0fd41$f58881d0$e0998570$@gmail.com> Message-ID: True enough; Model M covers a lot of variations, but I did add a smiley... ;-) There are 24PF keyboards on eBay, also worth more than I'd pay (unless I had to ;-) Do these usually have detachable cords? Many of them did... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:41 PM Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals > The keyboards go for stupid amounts, and get > butchered... > .. but note those you found are 12PF key boards > with PS/2 jacks. > The ones on the terminals will be 24PF Key, with > a socket with a screw > retaining ring.... > > Dave > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of Mike > Stein >> Sent: 02 October 2015 19:32 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts >> >> Subject: Re: update on IBM terminals >> >> The keyboards are probably worth the most ;-) >> >> 321565328456 >> 262061662693 >> >> Or how about this one for only $1000: >> 262068557786 >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dave G4UGM" >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts'" >> >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:13 PM >> Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals >> >> >> > Why are these always in the USA? >> > >> > I wouldn't have thought there was much gold >> > in a 3174-11R I think >> > there are only a couple of boards in them. >> > The 3174-11R is normally >> > connected to the host via SDLC and as such >> > isn't usable "as-is" >> > unless you have a Mainframe >> > with an HDLC or BiSync cards. I Think it will >> > take a token ring or >> > Ethernet card and with that it can be >> > connected to Mainframe emulation >> > via TCP/IP. >> > >> > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?p=2389 >> > >> > The terminals are pretty much useless you >> > have a controller (or >> > Mainframe with on-board controller, like the >> > one Dave McGuire has I >> > think) to do anything with the terminals as >> > they have a co-ax port >> > that runs at 1.5MBps (I think that's the >> > speed) and both the physical >> > (voltages, impedances) and logical >> > (protocols) interfaces between the >> > terminal and the controllers is pretty much >> > undocumented. >> > >> > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?pfile=3472 >> > >> > With a controller and TCP/IP they can be used >> > onto Hercules or some of >> > the other Mainframe emulators.. >> > >> > Dave Wade >> > G4UGM >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: cctalk >> >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> >> Behalf Of Cindy Croxton >> >> Sent: 02 October 2015 18:52 >> >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and >> >> Off-Topic Posts' >> >> >> >> Subject: update on IBM terminals >> >> >> >> The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. >> >> >> >> The keyboards are Model M. >> >> >> >> The server is a 3174-11R >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> He did not give counts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cindy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by >> >> Avast antivirus software. >> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > > > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Oct 2 13:52:15 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 13:52:15 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> <20151002093234.GA33255@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20151002185215.GO4403@n0jcf.net> On Friday (10/02/2015 at 11:22AM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > I think Holm nailed that one. The logo is probably just a coincidence, as > it's pretty safe to say this board didn't originate in the 'Bad Old Days' > of the DDR.. ;-) > > Seems like MCT in Shoreview, MN is our best working hypothesis. Would be > nice to come across an advert or other piece of corporate ephemera from the > early 1980s, to see what logo they used. circa 1990, http://www.ebay.com/itm/171511885205 http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/MVsAAOSwcu5USDJR/$_57.JPG > On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:21PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > > > @Chris > > > > > > > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's this: > > > > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the > > 80s, > > > > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but yes, > > > > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard back. > > > > > > They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 > > > and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made the > > > board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. :-) > > > > > [..] > > > > I'm sure, that's not the company that build that S100 Board. Ranzin, where > > mct.net is located, is former eastern germany (GDR) area (as my home is > > too) > > and S100 Buisses where simply not used before here before 1989. > > Ther embedded control experience in this timeframe will be mostly an Z80 > > compatibles (later Z8 too) an K1520 Bus systems. The AY3-1015 however was > > available as TESLA MHB1012 or so, not as GI part. > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 14:01:29 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:01:29 +0100 Subject: update on IBM terminals In-Reply-To: References: <01af01d0fd3b$05d07630$11716290$@com> <024601d0fd3e$11a04460$34e0cd20$@gmail.com> <1B144DD42A5B4E8EBB45F2622D45ACF5@310e2> <02cf01d0fd41$f58881d0$e0998570$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <030101d0fd44$bf4b7020$3de25060$@gmail.com> Looking at "Sold" listings the going rate is between $50 and $100. Here is a more reasonably priced example similar to the others:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/121760785250 Thy have a detachable cable, but the keyboard end is rather an odd connector... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein > Sent: 02 October 2015 19:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: update on IBM terminals > > True enough; Model M covers a lot of variations, but I did add a smiley... ;-) > > There are 24PF keyboards on eBay, also worth more than I'd pay (unless I > had to ;-) > > Do these usually have detachable cords? Many of them did... > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave G4UGM" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:41 PM > Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals > > > > The keyboards go for stupid amounts, and get > > butchered... > > .. but note those you found are 12PF key boards > > with PS/2 jacks. > > The ones on the terminals will be 24PF Key, with > > a socket with a screw > > retaining ring.... > > > > Dave > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > >> Behalf Of Mike > > Stein > >> Sent: 02 October 2015 19:32 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > >> Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: update on IBM terminals > >> > >> The keyboards are probably worth the most ;-) > >> > >> 321565328456 > >> 262061662693 > >> > >> Or how about this one for only $1000: > >> 262068557786 > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Dave G4UGM" > >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and > >> Off-Topic Posts'" > >> > >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:13 PM > >> Subject: RE: update on IBM terminals > >> > >> > >> > Why are these always in the USA? > >> > > >> > I wouldn't have thought there was much gold > >> > in a 3174-11R I think > >> > there are only a couple of boards in them. > >> > The 3174-11R is normally > >> > connected to the host via SDLC and as such > >> > isn't usable "as-is" > >> > unless you have a Mainframe > >> > with an HDLC or BiSync cards. I Think it will > >> > take a token ring or > >> > Ethernet card and with that it can be > >> > connected to Mainframe emulation > >> > via TCP/IP. > >> > > >> > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?p=2389 > >> > > >> > The terminals are pretty much useless you > >> > have a controller (or > >> > Mainframe with on-board controller, like the > >> > one Dave McGuire has I > >> > think) to do anything with the terminals as > >> > they have a co-ax port > >> > that runs at 1.5MBps (I think that's the > >> > speed) and both the physical > >> > (voltages, impedances) and logical > >> > (protocols) interfaces between the > >> > terminal and the controllers is pretty much > >> > undocumented. > >> > > >> > http://www.argecy.com/index.php?pfile=3472 > >> > > >> > With a controller and TCP/IP they can be used > >> > onto Hercules or some of > >> > the other Mainframe emulators.. > >> > > >> > Dave Wade > >> > G4UGM > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: cctalk > >> >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > >> >> Behalf Of Cindy Croxton > >> >> Sent: 02 October 2015 18:52 > >> >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > >> >> Off-Topic Posts' > >> >> > >> >> Subject: update on IBM terminals > >> >> > >> >> The terminals are models 3472 and 3477. > >> >> > >> >> The keyboards are Model M. > >> >> > >> >> The server is a 3174-11R > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> He did not give counts. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Cindy > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- > >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by > >> >> Avast antivirus software. > >> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >> > > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 14:34:58 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:34:58 -0500 Subject: One more try - Can you ID this S-100 Serial board? In-Reply-To: <20151002185215.GO4403@n0jcf.net> References: <560D4DC1.4000705@charter.net> <20151001203028.GJ4403@n0jcf.net> <20151001233625.GP3034@n0jcf.net> <20151002093234.GA33255@beast.freibergnet.de> <20151002185215.GO4403@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I'd say that nails it, good work! Presently, I have a mail in to a Ken Ramsey who is a VP of sales at MCT. He believes that they may well have made the board, and has promised to forward my photos to their engineers - now in Malaysia - to see if anyone recognizes it. But at least we know who made it.. this mystery may yet be solved. On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (10/02/2015 at 11:22AM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > I think Holm nailed that one. The logo is probably just a coincidence, as > > it's pretty safe to say this board didn't originate in the 'Bad Old Days' > > of the DDR.. ;-) > > > > Seems like MCT in Shoreview, MN is our best working hypothesis. Would be > > nice to come across an advert or other piece of corporate ephemera from > the > > early 1980s, to see what logo they used. > > circa 1990, > http://www.ebay.com/itm/171511885205 > > http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/MVsAAOSwcu5USDJR/$_57.JPG > > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > > > On Thursday (10/01/2015 at 06:21PM -0500), drlegendre . wrote: > > > > > @Chris > > > > > > > > > > That's an intriguing and very real possibility, but then there's > this: > > > > > http://www.mct.net/ - Does that logo look familiar? Founded in the > > > 80s, > > > > > controller boards, interface modules, single-board computers.. but > yes, > > > > > they are in Germany. I did try contacting them, but never heard > back. > > > > > > > > They claim "Embedded Control know-how since 1984." but you have 1980 > > > > and 1981 date code parts on your board. It's possible they made the > > > > board before they knew how however. That is not unheard of. :-) > > > > > > > [..] > > > > > > I'm sure, that's not the company that build that S100 Board. Ranzin, > where > > > mct.net is located, is former eastern germany (GDR) area (as my home > is > > > too) > > > and S100 Buisses where simply not used before here before 1989. > > > Ther embedded control experience in this timeframe will be mostly an > Z80 > > > compatibles (later Z8 too) an K1520 Bus systems. The AY3-1015 however > was > > > available as TESLA MHB1012 or so, not as GI part. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Holm > > > > > > -- > > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > > > > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Oct 2 14:49:12 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 15:49:12 -0400 Subject: Sources for Old ISA boards Message-ID: <560EDFB8.9010303@comcast.net> I've seen the discussion here about sources for old IC's, ones that are out of production, mainly the DEC buss interface chips. Are there places where old PC cards can be found? I mean besides ebay. I'm looking for ISA interface cards that were for Bomem spectrometers, they are probably 20-25 years old. From ccmp at impakt.net Fri Oct 2 14:51:42 2015 From: ccmp at impakt.net (Justin Dj Scott) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 14:51:42 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> Correct, b, not c... c is whole disk. My bad. Sorry about line length, I don't use HTML email, and expect the far end to wordwrap appropriate to the terminal width. ;) cheers, dj Mouse(mouse) wrote: > > So, lets say you have your disk already partitioned the way you want it, and$ > > (In passing: please don't use paragraph-length lines.) > > It's been a while, but I'm fairly sure 4.1.x swapped onto b, with c > being the whole-disk partition. (That's on disks. CDs are a > completely different kettle of fish.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 16:06:43 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:06:43 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> Message-ID: <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> There are three columns named Location for a reason. There is the column Location in a table all by itself. That is a list of locations - not just for manuals, but, eventually, for all of my artifacts. Then there is a table of Cabinets. Each Cabinet has a single location at any given time. But Cabinet by itself may not be unique, so Location comes along for the ride as part of the key for the table of cabinets. Manual artifacts (copies) are stored in Cabinets. Yes, I *could* have created a separate key for each Cabinet, and stored that in the Manual table and the Cabinet table (like I did to relate Manuals to the other tables), but that would have actually complicated the design, so instead I used the same concatenation which is the key to the Cabinet table. The database is defined such that Location is a foreign key in Cabinet, and the keys to Cabinet (tee hee) are a foreign key in Manual_Artifact. This allows the database to *guarantee* that there is not any Manual whose Cabinet does not exist or a Cabinet whose Location does not exist. It also allows the web applications to easily populate pull down lists without having to read through the entire artifacts table. With a database this small that probably doesn't matter much, but if the table had millions of rows it certainly would. Type and manufacturer are handled the same way for the same reason. I could have made a more relationally pure design by creating a separate table of Artifacts and Cabinets, Cabinets and Locations and so on. But because each of those relationships is just one to many and never many to many, there was no point in my mind (purists would probably disagree). Not so for manuals and machines - many manuals may apply to a given machine, and a given manual may apply to many machines, so that had relation to be stored in a separate table. Historial digression.... I have been doing database design essentially like this from *before* relational databases were well known and commercially available, at Wisconsin DOT, which developed its own database system called File Handler in the early 1970's, starting on an IBM 360/65 MP with 2MB of core. It was written because the other DBMS's at the time were either too slow, to big or required taking too much of the database too often for reorganizations. (IBM's IMS, in particular). DB2 did not yet exist. Huge gamble management took on the programmers that wrote it, which paid off in millions of dollars saved in computer capacity alone. For a while, for performance reasons, we had a "cheat" that could store a one to many relation in a single column (which we called a "repeating group") that was done for our drivers database. We broke them out into separate tables when we upgraded to an Amdahl 470/V6 in 1976. File Handler production before I started there in 1975, I was the primary DBA for it for about 7 years before I moved on to other things. It had features like row-level blank compression, elimination of nulls at the column level (a bitmap indicated which columns were present), an API which had a LALR compiler which parsed queries (though for online production we required them to be pre-compiled), full (single phase) commit with preempt detection including redundant log and checkpoint files in case the machine went down mid-commit and so on. It used techniques for indexing that would be recognizable today. It was almost its own OS: by the time we were done it had (in order of development) its own memory management ("KORMAN" aka "Harvey"), task management and program loading/content management ("CONMAN"). It supported the SMP fully, though applications were usually written to be single-threaded in a given serially-reusable application instance - though you could have multiple instances of the same application running. A man named Robert Tomlinson wrote the query compiler, and used some of his work on File Handler for his advanced degree theses (at least his PhD, for certain). I was an EE student at the same time he was at U. Wisconsin, though our paths never crossed. Florida DOT acquired the code from us in the late 1970's, and established it, with some assistance from Wisconsin DOT staff, as their motor vehicle and/or driver database system for many years as well. I have a copy of that instance of the code, and have run the thing under Hercules, just for giggles. Wisconsin DOT retired the last vestige of it just last year - it had a 40 year run, all told. JRJ On 10/2/2015 1:38 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. the contents of the Location > field in three places, Location and Manual_Type only containing one > field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? > > Looks like I'll have to brush up on database design... ;-) > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM > Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > > >> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >>> Coming up with a schema that works with multiple manufacturers is the >>> big >>> challenge. >>> >> >> Not sure it is that big a challenge. Perfection is not required. Just >> the ability to find stuff later. My schema currently has manual >> manufacturer - the original manufacturer of the machine, and then each >> artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. >> >> Consider the case of Apollo which got bought by HP. >> >> For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer is always Apollo. For a >> 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always HP. However a given copy >> of a manual may have been published by Apollo (older) or HP (newer) - >> with the very same number. The schema supports that. >> >> (New schema posted at >> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf >> ) . >> >> JRJ >> > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 17:36:29 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 18:36:29 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> Message-ID: <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> I'm just surprised that it looks like the names/descriptions are the key; what if you repaint the BLUE cabinet in your wife MARY'S BEDROOM red, or for that matter if you remarry and MARY'S BEDROOM becomes LINDA'S BEDROOM? Does the software update all occurrences automatically, or am I misunderstanding? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" To: Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > There are three columns named Location for a > reason. > > There is the column Location in a table all by > itself. That is a list > of locations - not just for manuals, but, > eventually, for all of my > artifacts. > > Then there is a table of Cabinets. Each Cabinet > has a single location > at any given time. But Cabinet by itself may > not be unique, so Location > comes along for the ride as part of the key for > the table of cabinets. > > Manual artifacts (copies) are stored in > Cabinets. Yes, I *could* have > created a separate key for each Cabinet, and > stored that in the Manual > table and the Cabinet table (like I did to > relate Manuals to the other > tables), but that would have actually > complicated the design, so instead > I used the same concatenation which is the key > to the Cabinet table. > > The database is defined such that Location is a > foreign key in Cabinet, > and the keys to Cabinet (tee hee) are a foreign > key in Manual_Artifact. > This allows the database to *guarantee* that > there is not any Manual > whose Cabinet does not exist or a Cabinet whose > Location does not exist. > It also allows the web applications to easily > populate pull down lists > without having to read through the entire > artifacts table. With a > database this small that probably doesn't matter > much, but if the table > had millions of rows it certainly would. > > Type and manufacturer are handled the same way > for the same reason. > > I could have made a more relationally pure > design by creating a separate > table of Artifacts and Cabinets, Cabinets and > Locations and so on. But > because each of those relationships is just one > to many and never many > to many, there was no point in my mind (purists > would probably > disagree). Not so for manuals and machines - > many manuals may apply to > a given machine, and a given manual may apply to > many machines, so that > had relation to be stored in a separate table. > > Historial digression.... > > I have been doing database design essentially > like this from *before* > relational databases were well known and > commercially available, at > Wisconsin DOT, which developed its own database > system called File > Handler in the early 1970's, starting on an IBM > 360/65 MP with 2MB of > core. It was written because the other DBMS's > at the time were either > too slow, to big or required taking too much of > the database too often > for reorganizations. (IBM's IMS, in > particular). DB2 did not yet > exist. Huge gamble management took on the > programmers that wrote it, > which paid off in millions of dollars saved in > computer capacity alone. > For a while, for performance reasons, we had a > "cheat" that could store > a one to many relation in a single column (which > we called a "repeating > group") that was done for our drivers database. > We broke them out into > separate tables when we upgraded to an Amdahl > 470/V6 in 1976. > > File Handler production before I started there > in 1975, I was the > primary DBA for it for about 7 years before I > moved on to other things. > It had features like row-level blank > compression, elimination of nulls > at the column level (a bitmap indicated which > columns were present), an > API which had a LALR compiler which parsed > queries (though for online > production we required them to be pre-compiled), > full (single phase) > commit with preempt detection including > redundant log and checkpoint > files in case the machine went down mid-commit > and so on. It used > techniques for indexing that would be > recognizable today. It was almost > its own OS: by the time we were done it had (in > order of development) > its own memory management ("KORMAN" aka > "Harvey"), task management and > program loading/content management ("CONMAN"). > It supported the SMP > fully, though applications were usually written > to be single-threaded in > a given serially-reusable application instance - > though you could have > multiple instances of the same application > running. A man named Robert > Tomlinson wrote the query compiler, and used > some of his work on File > Handler for his advanced degree theses (at least > his PhD, for certain). > I was an EE student at the same time he was at > U. Wisconsin, though our > paths never crossed. > > Florida DOT acquired the code from us in the > late 1970's, and > established it, with some assistance from > Wisconsin DOT staff, as their > motor vehicle and/or driver database system for > many years as well. I > have a copy of that instance of the code, and > have run the thing under > Hercules, just for giggles. Wisconsin DOT > retired the last vestige of > it just last year - it had a 40 year run, all > told. > > JRJ > > On 10/2/2015 1:38 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. the >> contents of the Location >> field in three places, Location and Manual_Type >> only containing one >> field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? >> >> Looks like I'll have to brush up on database >> design... ;-) >> >> m >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" >> >> To: >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM >> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database >> design? >> >> >>> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >>>> Coming up with a schema that works with >>>> multiple manufacturers is the >>>> big >>>> challenge. >>>> >>> >>> Not sure it is that big a challenge. >>> Perfection is not required. Just >>> the ability to find stuff later. My schema >>> currently has manual >>> manufacturer - the original manufacturer of >>> the machine, and then each >>> artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. >>> >>> Consider the case of Apollo which got bought >>> by HP. >>> >>> For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer >>> is always Apollo. For a >>> 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always >>> HP. However a given copy >>> of a manual may have been published by Apollo >>> (older) or HP (newer) - >>> with the very same number. The schema >>> supports that. >>> >>> (New schema posted at >>> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf >>> ) . >>> >>> JRJ >>> >> >> From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 17:53:49 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 17:53:49 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> Message-ID: <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> The descriptions are not the keys to any table, but the names sometimes are, if there hasn't been a reason to use a different key. For example: Location is the key to the Location table. Location . Cabinet is the key to the Cabinet table - cabinets are not necessarily unique unto themselves but are unique within a location. (Well, actually, I plan to make them globally unique, but didn't want to design the database to require it). ArtifactID is the key to the Manual_Artifact table. Location . Cabinet are columns in the Manual_Artifact table. They are also foriegn keys (i.e., keys to the Cabinet table). If I cared about the color of a cabinet, that would be a column in the cabinet table. The artifact would not care what color the cabinet was. Color would not be a key. If a cabinet got renamed, then the Artifacts would have to change as well. (This is why purists would suggest adding a separate numeric key to the cabinet table. I am not worried about that happening - there isn't any reason, really, to rename a cabinet.). HOWEVER, if a cabinet got moved then the Location in both the Cabinet and the Manual_Artifact table would have to change. That is actually plausible (as a "Box" is one kind of cabinet - and those *do* move), so this gives me some reason to add such an invented key that I had not thought of before, so I think I will make that change to add a autoincrement key to the cabinet table. I don't like to invent these separate autoincrement keys without a good reason - but am perfectly happy to if I find such a reason. No, there is no magic with respect to the database doing updates. JRJ On 10/2/2015 5:36 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I'm just surprised that it looks like the names/descriptions are the > key; what if you repaint the BLUE cabinet in your wife MARY'S BEDROOM > red, or for that matter if you remarry and MARY'S BEDROOM becomes > LINDA'S BEDROOM? > > Does the software update all occurrences automatically, or am I > misunderstanding? > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > > >> There are three columns named Location for a reason. >> >> There is the column Location in a table all by itself. That is a list >> of locations - not just for manuals, but, eventually, for all of my >> artifacts. >> >> Then there is a table of Cabinets. Each Cabinet has a single location >> at any given time. But Cabinet by itself may not be unique, so Location >> comes along for the ride as part of the key for the table of cabinets. >> >> Manual artifacts (copies) are stored in Cabinets. Yes, I *could* have >> created a separate key for each Cabinet, and stored that in the Manual >> table and the Cabinet table (like I did to relate Manuals to the other >> tables), but that would have actually complicated the design, so instead >> I used the same concatenation which is the key to the Cabinet table. >> >> The database is defined such that Location is a foreign key in Cabinet, >> and the keys to Cabinet (tee hee) are a foreign key in Manual_Artifact. >> This allows the database to *guarantee* that there is not any Manual >> whose Cabinet does not exist or a Cabinet whose Location does not exist. >> It also allows the web applications to easily populate pull down lists >> without having to read through the entire artifacts table. With a >> database this small that probably doesn't matter much, but if the table >> had millions of rows it certainly would. >> >> Type and manufacturer are handled the same way for the same reason. >> >> I could have made a more relationally pure design by creating a separate >> table of Artifacts and Cabinets, Cabinets and Locations and so on. But >> because each of those relationships is just one to many and never many >> to many, there was no point in my mind (purists would probably >> disagree). Not so for manuals and machines - many manuals may apply to >> a given machine, and a given manual may apply to many machines, so that >> had relation to be stored in a separate table. >> >> Historial digression.... >> >> I have been doing database design essentially like this from *before* >> relational databases were well known and commercially available, at >> Wisconsin DOT, which developed its own database system called File >> Handler in the early 1970's, starting on an IBM 360/65 MP with 2MB of >> core. It was written because the other DBMS's at the time were either >> too slow, to big or required taking too much of the database too often >> for reorganizations. (IBM's IMS, in particular). DB2 did not yet >> exist. Huge gamble management took on the programmers that wrote it, >> which paid off in millions of dollars saved in computer capacity alone. >> For a while, for performance reasons, we had a "cheat" that could store >> a one to many relation in a single column (which we called a "repeating >> group") that was done for our drivers database. We broke them out into >> separate tables when we upgraded to an Amdahl 470/V6 in 1976. >> >> File Handler production before I started there in 1975, I was the >> primary DBA for it for about 7 years before I moved on to other things. >> It had features like row-level blank compression, elimination of nulls >> at the column level (a bitmap indicated which columns were present), an >> API which had a LALR compiler which parsed queries (though for online >> production we required them to be pre-compiled), full (single phase) >> commit with preempt detection including redundant log and checkpoint >> files in case the machine went down mid-commit and so on. It used >> techniques for indexing that would be recognizable today. It was almost >> its own OS: by the time we were done it had (in order of development) >> its own memory management ("KORMAN" aka "Harvey"), task management and >> program loading/content management ("CONMAN"). It supported the SMP >> fully, though applications were usually written to be single-threaded in >> a given serially-reusable application instance - though you could have >> multiple instances of the same application running. A man named Robert >> Tomlinson wrote the query compiler, and used some of his work on File >> Handler for his advanced degree theses (at least his PhD, for certain). >> I was an EE student at the same time he was at U. Wisconsin, though our >> paths never crossed. >> >> Florida DOT acquired the code from us in the late 1970's, and >> established it, with some assistance from Wisconsin DOT staff, as their >> motor vehicle and/or driver database system for many years as well. I >> have a copy of that instance of the code, and have run the thing under >> Hercules, just for giggles. Wisconsin DOT retired the last vestige of >> it just last year - it had a 40 year run, all told. >> >> JRJ >> >> On 10/2/2015 1:38 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>> Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. the contents of the Location >>> field in three places, Location and Manual_Type only containing one >>> field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? >>> >>> Looks like I'll have to brush up on database design... ;-) >>> >>> m >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM >>> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? >>> >>> >>>> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >>>>> Coming up with a schema that works with multiple manufacturers is the >>>>> big >>>>> challenge. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not sure it is that big a challenge. Perfection is not required. Just >>>> the ability to find stuff later. My schema currently has manual >>>> manufacturer - the original manufacturer of the machine, and then each >>>> artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. >>>> >>>> Consider the case of Apollo which got bought by HP. >>>> >>>> For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer is always Apollo. For a >>>> 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always HP. However a given copy >>>> of a manual may have been published by Apollo (older) or HP (newer) - >>>> with the very same number. The schema supports that. >>>> >>>> (New schema posted at >>>> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf >>>> ) . >>>> >>>> JRJ >>>> >>> >>> > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 17:59:50 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 18:59:50 -0400 Subject: Flexowriter Message-ID: Anyone out in CALI (I think he said Santa Cruz) who is looking for a very nice condition Flexowriter with desk. I wish I could take it, but I have a moratorium on new stuff for a while. It's museum quality. Email me privately for more info. I have only seen the pictures, don't know the guy who contacted me to see if was interested (and also willing to buy it), but before it goes on Ebay someone here might be able to snag it. -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 2 18:11:59 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 19:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> Message-ID: <201510022311.TAA12983@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Sorry about line length, I don't use HTML email, and expect the far > end to wordwrap appropriate to the terminal width. ;) Then it would probably be a good idea to mark your text as rewrappable; without that, the receiver's UA has no way to know whether line breaks are significant or not. See RFC 3676 for how to apply such markings to your mail - and for a brief discussion of some of the issues involved. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 19:05:03 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:05:03 -0400 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> <201510022311.TAA12983@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: No problem here; OE wrapped to the size of the window. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive >> Sorry about line length, I don't use HTML >> email, and expect the far >> end to wordwrap appropriate to the terminal >> width. ;) > > Then it would probably be a good idea to mark > your text as rewrappable; > without that, the receiver's UA has no way to > know whether line breaks > are significant or not. > > See RFC 3676 for how to apply such markings to > your mail - and for a > brief discussion of some of the issues involved. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 > 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 19:25:44 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:25:44 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> Message-ID: <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> Ah, OK; not really relational then, but as long as it works reliably... Yeah, you may not remarry or repaint a cabinet but it's quite possible that you'll move one... Doesn't your software provide for hiding the auto keys except during maintenance? No provision for multiple (changed) publishers so a given manual could show up under both Compaq or HP, for example? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" Ah, OK To: Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > The descriptions are not the keys to any table, > but the names sometimes > are, if there hasn't been a reason to use a > different key. > > For example: > > Location is the key to the Location table. > > Location . Cabinet is the key to the Cabinet > table - cabinets are not > necessarily unique unto themselves but are > unique within a location. > (Well, actually, I plan to make them globally > unique, but didn't want to > design the database to require it). > > ArtifactID is the key to the Manual_Artifact > table. > Location . Cabinet are columns in the > Manual_Artifact table. > They are also foriegn keys (i.e., keys to the > Cabinet table). > > If I cared about the color of a cabinet, that > would be a column in the > cabinet table. The artifact would not care what > color the cabinet was. > Color would not be a key. > > If a cabinet got renamed, then the Artifacts > would have to change as > well. (This is why purists would suggest adding > a separate numeric key > to the cabinet table. I am not worried about > that happening - there > isn't any reason, really, to rename a cabinet.). > > HOWEVER, if a cabinet got moved then the > Location in both the Cabinet > and the Manual_Artifact table would have to > change. That is actually > plausible (as a "Box" is one kind of cabinet - > and those *do* move), so > this gives me some reason to add such an > invented key that I had not > thought of before, so I think I will make that > change to add a > autoincrement key to the cabinet table. > > I don't like to invent these separate > autoincrement keys without a good > reason - but am perfectly happy to if I find > such a reason. > > No, there is no magic with respect to the > database doing updates. > > JRJ > > On 10/2/2015 5:36 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> I'm just surprised that it looks like the >> names/descriptions are the >> key; what if you repaint the BLUE cabinet in >> your wife MARY'S BEDROOM >> red, or for that matter if you remarry and >> MARY'S BEDROOM becomes >> LINDA'S BEDROOM? >> >> Does the software update all occurrences >> automatically, or am I >> misunderstanding? >> >> m >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" >> >> To: >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 5:06 PM >> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database >> design? >> >> >>> There are three columns named Location for a >>> reason. >>> >>> There is the column Location in a table all by >>> itself. That is a list >>> of locations - not just for manuals, but, >>> eventually, for all of my >>> artifacts. >>> >>> Then there is a table of Cabinets. Each >>> Cabinet has a single location >>> at any given time. But Cabinet by itself may >>> not be unique, so Location >>> comes along for the ride as part of the key >>> for the table of cabinets. >>> >>> Manual artifacts (copies) are stored in >>> Cabinets. Yes, I *could* have >>> created a separate key for each Cabinet, and >>> stored that in the Manual >>> table and the Cabinet table (like I did to >>> relate Manuals to the other >>> tables), but that would have actually >>> complicated the design, so instead >>> I used the same concatenation which is the key >>> to the Cabinet table. >>> >>> The database is defined such that Location is >>> a foreign key in Cabinet, >>> and the keys to Cabinet (tee hee) are a >>> foreign key in Manual_Artifact. >>> This allows the database to *guarantee* that >>> there is not any Manual >>> whose Cabinet does not exist or a Cabinet >>> whose Location does not exist. >>> It also allows the web applications to easily >>> populate pull down lists >>> without having to read through the entire >>> artifacts table. With a >>> database this small that probably doesn't >>> matter much, but if the table >>> had millions of rows it certainly would. >>> >>> Type and manufacturer are handled the same way >>> for the same reason. >>> >>> I could have made a more relationally pure >>> design by creating a separate >>> table of Artifacts and Cabinets, Cabinets and >>> Locations and so on. But >>> because each of those relationships is just >>> one to many and never many >>> to many, there was no point in my mind >>> (purists would probably >>> disagree). Not so for manuals and machines - >>> many manuals may apply to >>> a given machine, and a given manual may apply >>> to many machines, so that >>> had relation to be stored in a separate table. >>> >>> Historial digression.... >>> >>> I have been doing database design essentially >>> like this from *before* >>> relational databases were well known and >>> commercially available, at >>> Wisconsin DOT, which developed its own >>> database system called File >>> Handler in the early 1970's, starting on an >>> IBM 360/65 MP with 2MB of >>> core. It was written because the other DBMS's >>> at the time were either >>> too slow, to big or required taking too much >>> of the database too often >>> for reorganizations. (IBM's IMS, in >>> particular). DB2 did not yet >>> exist. Huge gamble management took on the >>> programmers that wrote it, >>> which paid off in millions of dollars saved in >>> computer capacity alone. >>> For a while, for performance reasons, we had a >>> "cheat" that could store >>> a one to many relation in a single column >>> (which we called a "repeating >>> group") that was done for our drivers >>> database. We broke them out into >>> separate tables when we upgraded to an Amdahl >>> 470/V6 in 1976. >>> >>> File Handler production before I started there >>> in 1975, I was the >>> primary DBA for it for about 7 years before I >>> moved on to other things. >>> It had features like row-level blank >>> compression, elimination of nulls >>> at the column level (a bitmap indicated which >>> columns were present), an >>> API which had a LALR compiler which parsed >>> queries (though for online >>> production we required them to be >>> pre-compiled), full (single phase) >>> commit with preempt detection including >>> redundant log and checkpoint >>> files in case the machine went down mid-commit >>> and so on. It used >>> techniques for indexing that would be >>> recognizable today. It was almost >>> its own OS: by the time we were done it had >>> (in order of development) >>> its own memory management ("KORMAN" aka >>> "Harvey"), task management and >>> program loading/content management ("CONMAN"). >>> It supported the SMP >>> fully, though applications were usually >>> written to be single-threaded in >>> a given serially-reusable application >>> instance - though you could have >>> multiple instances of the same application >>> running. A man named Robert >>> Tomlinson wrote the query compiler, and used >>> some of his work on File >>> Handler for his advanced degree theses (at >>> least his PhD, for certain). >>> I was an EE student at the same time he was at >>> U. Wisconsin, though our >>> paths never crossed. >>> >>> Florida DOT acquired the code from us in the >>> late 1970's, and >>> established it, with some assistance from >>> Wisconsin DOT staff, as their >>> motor vehicle and/or driver database system >>> for many years as well. I >>> have a copy of that instance of the code, and >>> have run the thing under >>> Hercules, just for giggles. Wisconsin DOT >>> retired the last vestige of >>> it just last year - it had a 40 year run, all >>> told. >>> >>> JRJ >>> >>> On 10/2/2015 1:38 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>> Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. >>>> the contents of the Location >>>> field in three places, Location and >>>> Manual_Type only containing one >>>> field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? >>>> >>>> Looks like I'll have to brush up on database >>>> design... ;-) >>>> >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay >>>> Jaeger" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database >>>> design? >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >>>>>> Coming up with a schema that works with >>>>>> multiple manufacturers is the >>>>>> big >>>>>> challenge. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not sure it is that big a challenge. >>>>> Perfection is not required. Just >>>>> the ability to find stuff later. My schema >>>>> currently has manual >>>>> manufacturer - the original manufacturer of >>>>> the machine, and then each >>>>> artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the case of Apollo which got bought >>>>> by HP. >>>>> >>>>> For a DNxxxx machine, the machine >>>>> manufacturer is always Apollo. For a >>>>> 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is >>>>> always HP. However a given copy >>>>> of a manual may have been published by >>>>> Apollo (older) or HP (newer) - >>>>> with the very same number. The schema >>>>> supports that. >>>>> >>>>> (New schema posted at >>>>> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf >>>>> ) . >>>>> >>>>> JRJ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 20:08:22 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:08:22 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> Message-ID: <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> On 10/2/2015 7:25 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Ah, OK; not really relational then, but as long as it works reliably... Not *fully* relational. It fits at least one of the lower echelon orders, I think. > > Yeah, you may not remarry or repaint a cabinet but it's quite possible > that you'll move one... > > Doesn't your software provide for hiding the auto keys except during > maintenance? Actually, I will need them to put in the references and for the application to follow to get details (particularly for the update application) and to use in the 1 to many situations where an auto increment key exists. > > No provision for multiple (changed) publishers so a given manual could > show up under both Compaq or HP, for example? Yes, there is. That is why an *artifact* - a given *hardcopy* of a manual - has a *publisher*. As I mentioned in an earlier reply at some point to someone, a given manual applies to a single machine *manufacturer* (e.g., Apollo is considered the manufacturer of the DN series, even though, technically, later HP made them for a year or two), but a given manual with the same number the applies to them might have Apollo as a publisher (older copy) and HP (newer copy - with the same contents). A given hardcopy of a manual could not change publishers. The publisher is permanent characteristic of that copy. I could conceivably add a Publisher column to the Manual_File table, too (indicating the publisher of that scan of the manual), but I didn't see the point. Most textual searches in the online application will be on a join of Manual and Manual_Artifact (where the Manual table data gets replicated in the result set for each artifact), so the publisher can be picked up that way. JRJ > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" Ah, OK > To: > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 6:53 PM > Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > > >> The descriptions are not the keys to any table, but the names sometimes >> are, if there hasn't been a reason to use a different key. >> >> For example: >> >> Location is the key to the Location table. >> >> Location . Cabinet is the key to the Cabinet table - cabinets are not >> necessarily unique unto themselves but are unique within a location. >> (Well, actually, I plan to make them globally unique, but didn't want to >> design the database to require it). >> >> ArtifactID is the key to the Manual_Artifact table. >> Location . Cabinet are columns in the Manual_Artifact table. >> They are also foriegn keys (i.e., keys to the Cabinet table). >> >> If I cared about the color of a cabinet, that would be a column in the >> cabinet table. The artifact would not care what color the cabinet was. >> Color would not be a key. >> >> If a cabinet got renamed, then the Artifacts would have to change as >> well. (This is why purists would suggest adding a separate numeric key >> to the cabinet table. I am not worried about that happening - there >> isn't any reason, really, to rename a cabinet.). >> >> HOWEVER, if a cabinet got moved then the Location in both the Cabinet >> and the Manual_Artifact table would have to change. That is actually >> plausible (as a "Box" is one kind of cabinet - and those *do* move), so >> this gives me some reason to add such an invented key that I had not >> thought of before, so I think I will make that change to add a >> autoincrement key to the cabinet table. >> >> I don't like to invent these separate autoincrement keys without a good >> reason - but am perfectly happy to if I find such a reason. >> >> No, there is no magic with respect to the database doing updates. >> >> JRJ >> >> On 10/2/2015 5:36 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>> I'm just surprised that it looks like the names/descriptions are the >>> key; what if you repaint the BLUE cabinet in your wife MARY'S BEDROOM >>> red, or for that matter if you remarry and MARY'S BEDROOM becomes >>> LINDA'S BEDROOM? >>> >>> Does the software update all occurrences automatically, or am I >>> misunderstanding? >>> >>> m >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 5:06 PM >>> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? >>> >>> >>>> There are three columns named Location for a reason. >>>> >>>> There is the column Location in a table all by itself. That is a list >>>> of locations - not just for manuals, but, eventually, for all of my >>>> artifacts. >>>> >>>> Then there is a table of Cabinets. Each Cabinet has a single location >>>> at any given time. But Cabinet by itself may not be unique, so >>>> Location >>>> comes along for the ride as part of the key for the table of cabinets. >>>> >>>> Manual artifacts (copies) are stored in Cabinets. Yes, I *could* have >>>> created a separate key for each Cabinet, and stored that in the Manual >>>> table and the Cabinet table (like I did to relate Manuals to the other >>>> tables), but that would have actually complicated the design, so >>>> instead >>>> I used the same concatenation which is the key to the Cabinet table. >>>> >>>> The database is defined such that Location is a foreign key in Cabinet, >>>> and the keys to Cabinet (tee hee) are a foreign key in Manual_Artifact. >>>> This allows the database to *guarantee* that there is not any Manual >>>> whose Cabinet does not exist or a Cabinet whose Location does not >>>> exist. >>>> It also allows the web applications to easily populate pull down lists >>>> without having to read through the entire artifacts table. With a >>>> database this small that probably doesn't matter much, but if the table >>>> had millions of rows it certainly would. >>>> >>>> Type and manufacturer are handled the same way for the same reason. >>>> >>>> I could have made a more relationally pure design by creating a >>>> separate >>>> table of Artifacts and Cabinets, Cabinets and Locations and so on. But >>>> because each of those relationships is just one to many and never many >>>> to many, there was no point in my mind (purists would probably >>>> disagree). Not so for manuals and machines - many manuals may apply to >>>> a given machine, and a given manual may apply to many machines, so that >>>> had relation to be stored in a separate table. >>>> >>>> Historial digression.... >>>> >>>> I have been doing database design essentially like this from *before* >>>> relational databases were well known and commercially available, at >>>> Wisconsin DOT, which developed its own database system called File >>>> Handler in the early 1970's, starting on an IBM 360/65 MP with 2MB of >>>> core. It was written because the other DBMS's at the time were either >>>> too slow, to big or required taking too much of the database too often >>>> for reorganizations. (IBM's IMS, in particular). DB2 did not yet >>>> exist. Huge gamble management took on the programmers that wrote it, >>>> which paid off in millions of dollars saved in computer capacity alone. >>>> For a while, for performance reasons, we had a "cheat" that could store >>>> a one to many relation in a single column (which we called a "repeating >>>> group") that was done for our drivers database. We broke them out into >>>> separate tables when we upgraded to an Amdahl 470/V6 in 1976. >>>> >>>> File Handler production before I started there in 1975, I was the >>>> primary DBA for it for about 7 years before I moved on to other things. >>>> It had features like row-level blank compression, elimination of nulls >>>> at the column level (a bitmap indicated which columns were present), an >>>> API which had a LALR compiler which parsed queries (though for online >>>> production we required them to be pre-compiled), full (single phase) >>>> commit with preempt detection including redundant log and checkpoint >>>> files in case the machine went down mid-commit and so on. It used >>>> techniques for indexing that would be recognizable today. It was >>>> almost >>>> its own OS: by the time we were done it had (in order of development) >>>> its own memory management ("KORMAN" aka "Harvey"), task management and >>>> program loading/content management ("CONMAN"). It supported the SMP >>>> fully, though applications were usually written to be >>>> single-threaded in >>>> a given serially-reusable application instance - though you could have >>>> multiple instances of the same application running. A man named Robert >>>> Tomlinson wrote the query compiler, and used some of his work on File >>>> Handler for his advanced degree theses (at least his PhD, for certain). >>>> I was an EE student at the same time he was at U. Wisconsin, though our >>>> paths never crossed. >>>> >>>> Florida DOT acquired the code from us in the late 1970's, and >>>> established it, with some assistance from Wisconsin DOT staff, as their >>>> motor vehicle and/or driver database system for many years as well. I >>>> have a copy of that instance of the code, and have run the thing under >>>> Hercules, just for giggles. Wisconsin DOT retired the last vestige of >>>> it just last year - it had a 40 year run, all told. >>>> >>>> JRJ >>>> >>>> On 10/2/2015 1:38 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>>> Is that the way it's done these days, e.g. the contents of the >>>>> Location >>>>> field in three places, Location and Manual_Type only containing one >>>>> field, no keys other than Manual_Key etc.? >>>>> >>>>> Looks like I'll have to brush up on database design... ;-) >>>>> >>>>> m >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:59 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 10/2/2015 12:04 AM, william degnan wrote: >>>>>>> Coming up with a schema that works with multiple manufacturers is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> challenge. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not sure it is that big a challenge. Perfection is not required. >>>>>> Just >>>>>> the ability to find stuff later. My schema currently has manual >>>>>> manufacturer - the original manufacturer of the machine, and then >>>>>> each >>>>>> artifact (copy of a manual) has a publisher. >>>>>> >>>>>> Consider the case of Apollo which got bought by HP. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a DNxxxx machine, the machine manufacturer is always Apollo. >>>>>> For a >>>>>> 400 or 700 series, the manufacturer is always HP. However a given >>>>>> copy >>>>>> of a manual may have been published by Apollo (older) or HP (newer) - >>>>>> with the very same number. The schema supports that. >>>>>> >>>>>> (New schema posted at >>>>>> http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> ) . >>>>>> >>>>>> JRJ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 20:40:54 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 21:40:54 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> Message-ID: <6C2C6F4659A54D61849574380E2E74FB@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" To: Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > On 10/2/2015 7:25 PM, Mike Stein wrote: ... >> No provision for multiple (changed) publishers >> so a given manual could >> show up under both Compaq or HP, for example? > > Yes, there is. That is why an *artifact* - a > given *hardcopy* of a > manual - has a *publisher*. As I mentioned in > an earlier reply at some > point to someone, a given manual applies to a > single machine > *manufacturer* (e.g., Apollo is considered the > manufacturer of the DN > series, even though, technically, later HP made > them for a year or two), > but a given manual with the same number the > applies to them might have > Apollo as a publisher (older copy) and HP (newer > copy - with the same > contents). > Might you not miss a manual if you listed all your HP manuals and your only copy (identical to the HP version) happened to be published by Apollo? From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 2 21:01:02 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 21:01:02 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <6C2C6F4659A54D61849574380E2E74FB@310e2> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> <6C2C6F4659A54D61849574380E2E74FB@310e2> Message-ID: <560F36DE.9030708@charter.net> On 10/2/2015 8:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Jaeger" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 9:08 PM > Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? > > >> On 10/2/2015 7:25 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ... >>> No provision for multiple (changed) publishers >>> so a given manual could >>> show up under both Compaq or HP, for example? >> >> Yes, there is. That is why an *artifact* - a >> given *hardcopy* of a >> manual - has a *publisher*. As I mentioned in >> an earlier reply at some >> point to someone, a given manual applies to a >> single machine >> *manufacturer* (e.g., Apollo is considered the >> manufacturer of the DN >> series, even though, technically, later HP made >> them for a year or two), >> but a given manual with the same number the >> applies to them might have >> Apollo as a publisher (older copy) and HP (newer >> copy - with the same >> contents). >> > > Might you not miss a manual if you listed all your HP manuals and your > only copy (identical to the HP version) happened to be published by Apollo? > Conceivably, but I frankly don't care, because then, as far as *my* *inventory* is concerned, the HP version doesn't exist. This search is about my inventory, not the world library. ;) The search app could, conceivably, also be clever about such situations, and notice that the machine criteria has "DN" or 4xx or 7xx and then search for both HP and Apollo as a manufacturer or publisher, but I doubt I will bother, as I expect that the searcher will be able to select multiple manufacturers/publishers for a search. (Which reminds me - I forgot to change the foreign key for Publisher to point to the Manufacturers table so that any search lists get populated correctly. Fixed.) I certainly don't want to equivalence HP and Apollo for all searches. JRJ From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 22:38:51 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:38:51 -0700 Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? In-Reply-To: <55EE70EB.7010906@gmail.com> References: <55EBD8DA.9090204@gmail.com> <55EC5245.1000302@bitsavers.org> <55EC5F04.3020300@gmail.com> <55EC7F0D.3070702@bitsavers.org> <55ECADAA.1000309@gmail.com> <55EDA6BF.2050508@bitsavers.org> <55EE4618.5070605@gmail.com> <55EE70EB.7010906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <560F4DCB.6010408@gmail.com> On 9/7/15 10:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 9/7/15 7:21 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Quick update: This compiled (with warnings) on my Mac and seems to > run fine. It does appear to support 5.25" 360K images and I was able > to extract files from the 1186/6085 images (from Bitsavers). The > ViewPoint images do not seem to have any loosely-packaged font files > on them, they're all in some kind of container format. The 1186 > images yielded a bit more fruit, there are font files with extension > ".STRIKE" on the XDE floppies and ".PSCFONT" on "Medley LispUsers #15". > > Neither of these seem to match the few examples of filenames I see in > the 1186 docs, but I'll see if I can get a couple of these disks > written out and see what's what later this week. > > I also looked briefly at the images for the 1108 and nothing obvious > jumped out. > > > - Josh > Just to bring a sort of closure to this thread: a friend of mine has a currently non-working 1186 with an installation of the Lyric release of Interlisp-D installed on the drive; I installed the hard drive in my 1186 and copied the display fonts from it over to a floppy. They appear to work perfectly on Medley, and all is right with the world. I have made a disk image of the ad-hoc font disk I created, and just for convenience I've also extracted them from the disk image, here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/xerox/interlisp-displayfonts.zip Maybe they'll be useful for someone else in the future... - Josh From jpw at chocolatejollis.net Fri Oct 2 22:33:31 2015 From: jpw at chocolatejollis.net (jpw at chocolatejollis.net) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:33:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Looking for RRD40 caddy Message-ID: <15100220333097_20200C89@chocolatejollis.net> Hello all, I am looking for a CD caddy that is compatible with the DEC RRD40. Willing to pay for the caddy + shipping; haven't had any luck with eBay et. al. Thanks, JP Willis From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 00:21:39 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 01:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! Message-ID: Hello everyone, I'm working to troubleshoot a 286 laptop style computer. I've kind of hit the end of my knowledge and wondering if anyone has any insight. The computer in question I've never seen run. So I don't know normal behavior. There were a few caps inside that were leaking electrolyte, I cleaned it all up and replaced them. A few traces look a little bit corroded but test fine. First thing I'm thinking, is did the BIOS eproms loose a bit or two of data from age? Bit rot? I did read off the two BIOS chips (high and low pair I assume.) I can see text like Copyright Pheonix Technologies 1988, but I can see that for instance the first character of the text Copyright is wrong, it's a P in one file and 9A in the other. Second thing I hooked up Oscope and cut on computer. It never does a floppy seek. When I poke around the 27c256 EPROM I see constant activity on all address lines, and all datalines. This includes the OE pin as well. Would a normal runnng computer hit the BIOS that much? Any thoughts appreciated! -- Ethan O'Toole From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 01:28:49 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 23:28:49 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS Message-ID: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> Chuck, Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file, out of the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not implemented. Marc From wilson at dbit.com Sat Oct 3 01:52:36 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 02:52:36 -0400 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ >under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the >box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file, out of >the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more >straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH >image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I >found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early >interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not >implemented. My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe) to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). Not picky at all. "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. John Wilson D Bit From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Oct 3 02:46:50 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2015 08:46:50 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Looking for RRD40 caddy In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 02 Oct 2015 20:33:31 -0700 (MST)" <15100220333097_20200C89@chocolatejollis.net> Message-ID: <01PRGWH5BC10009XOE@beyondthepale.ie> > > Hello all, > > I am looking for a CD caddy that is compatible with the DEC RRD40. Willing > to pay for the caddy + shipping; haven't had any luck with eBay et. al. > > Thanks, > JP Willis > I have some located on the Western edge of Europe but my super sixth sense tells me you are probably located in the USA. If you don't find any closer to you, maybe we can work something out. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 03:20:30 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:20:30 +1300 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin. Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card? Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated. Mike On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ >>under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the >>box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file, out of >>the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more >>straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH >>image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I >>found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early >>interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not >>implemented. > > My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an > E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're > interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe) > to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even > a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). Not picky at all. > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI driver > for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on > the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know > which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. > > John Wilson > D Bit -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 03:26:40 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:26:40 +0100 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> Message-ID: <04c501d0fdb5$3b1f0160$b15d0420$@gmail.com> > Yes, there is. That is why an *artifact* - a given *hardcopy* of a > manual - has a *publisher*. As I mentioned in an earlier reply at some > point to someone, a given manual applies to a single machine > *manufacturer* (e.g., Apollo is considered the manufacturer of the DN > series, even though, technically, later HP made them for a year or two), but a > given manual with the same number the applies to them might have Apollo > as a publisher (older copy) and HP (newer copy - with the same contents). > > A given hardcopy of a manual could not change publishers. The publisher is > permanent characteristic of that copy. > MOST attributes can change over time as new information comes to light. So for example I also follow one of the Slide Rule forums and new information as to who actually "Made" rather than "Sold" a particular rule all the time. Even the color fades.... > I could conceivably add a Publisher column to the Manual_File table, too > (indicating the publisher of that scan of the manual), but I didn't see the > point. Most textual searches in the online application will be on a join of > Manual and Manual_Artifact (where the Manual table data gets replicated in > the result set for each artifact), so the publisher can be picked up that way. > > JRJ Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 03:47:18 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:47:18 +0100 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <04e301d0fdb8$1ca6fd20$55f4f760$@gmail.com> Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have Windows versions available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the programs mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box". A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work in the way I expected http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703.html which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI controller and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The programs below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is these don't work either. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS > > Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If so, are > there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm interested in both > SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin. > > Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card? > > Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated. > > Mike > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: > >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a > >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work > >>out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a > >>SIMH file, out of the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which > >>seems to be the more straightforward option, does anyone have the > >>reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 Track tape under > >>Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using Windows Tape APIs > >>could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, they all expect some > >>basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not implemented. > > > > My "ST.EXE" program (available from > > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ > > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an > > E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but > > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the > > universe) to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar > > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). > Not picky at all. > > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI > > driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f > > scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so > > ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. > > > > John Wilson > > D Bit > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 05:07:06 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:07:06 +1300 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <04e301d0fdb8$1ca6fd20$55f4f760$@gmail.com> References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> <04e301d0fdb8$1ca6fd20$55f4f760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well that link gave some things to think about - but I was thinking more of a generic 'legacy SCSI disks and tapes into a modern computer' without necessarily being tooooo picky about which OS or application to use with them - but generally yes going to and from physical devices to image files. Mike On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have Windows versions available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the programs mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box". > A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work in the way I expected > > http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703.html > > which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI controller and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The programs below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is these don't work either. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross >> Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS >> >> Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If so, are >> there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm interested in both >> SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin. >> >> Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card? >> >> Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated. >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a >> >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work >> >>out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a >> >>SIMH file, out of the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which >> >>seems to be the more straightforward option, does anyone have the >> >>reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 Track tape under >> >>Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using Windows Tape APIs >> >>could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, they all expect some >> >>basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not implemented. >> > >> > My "ST.EXE" program (available from >> > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ >> > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an >> > E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but >> > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the >> > universe) to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar >> > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). >> Not picky at all. >> > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI >> > driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f >> > scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so >> > ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. >> > >> > John Wilson >> > D Bit >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 06:16:10 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:16:10 +0100 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> <04e301d0fdb8$1ca6fd20$55f4f760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <027301d0fdcc$e8b33a00$ba19ae00$@gmail.com> I think that the options are limited these days. As far as I can tell the Adaptech USB Exchange isn't supported past XP. I have no idea if it works as I don't have one to try. They also seem "Rare and Expensive" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161840342686 You can get a machine with a traditional PCI slot and use an older Adaptec SCSI adaptor. (I keep a box of these and a machine with a PCI slot). You can get PCI-Express adaptors but the cheap ones won't fit in my desktop as it only has a PCI-Express X1 slot and most of the adaptors need an X4 slot... e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281812515989 and the X1 versions are expensive... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291539495842 and these are both U320 standard so only Low Voltage Differential (LVD) devices will work and many older disks are 5V single ended... ... of course you can get converters but the price is high http://www.paralanstore.net/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=60_1 So keep an old machine and pray it does not break..... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 03 October 2015 11:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS > > Well that link gave some things to think about - but I was thinking more of a > generic 'legacy SCSI disks and tapes into a modern computer' > without necessarily being tooooo picky about which OS or application to use > with them - but generally yes going to and from physical devices to image > files. > > Mike > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > Seeing as all the programs mentioned appear to only have Windows > versions available then if by "this kind of approach" you meant using the > programs mentioned, its not going to work on Linux "out of the box". > > A quick web search shows that at least some SCSI adaptors don't work > > in the way I expected > > > > http://forum.silverfast.com/canoscan-2700-and-scsi-usb-adaptator-t4703 > > .html > > > > which implies that rather than present the disk to Windows as a SCSI > controller and devices, the SCSI2USB presents it as a USB storage device. The > programs below appear to expect an ASPI driver so I think the answer is > these don't work either. > > > > Dave > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > >> Ross > >> Sent: 03 October 2015 09:21 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS > >> > >> Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If > >> so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm > >> interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin. > >> > >> Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card? > >> > >> Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson wrote: > >> > On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: > >> >>Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a > >> >>champ under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did > >> >>work out of the box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track > >> >>into a SIMH file, out of the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to > >> >>Linux, which seems to be the more straightforward option, does > >> >>anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH image file on a 9 > >> >>Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I found using > >> >>Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early interface, > >> >>they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not > implemented. > >> > > >> > My "ST.EXE" program (available from > >> > http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ > >> > including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from > >> > an E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but > >> > they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of > >> > the > >> > universe) to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar > >> > 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). > >> Not picky at all. > >> > "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI > >> > driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like > >> > "-f scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment > >> > variable) so ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. > >> > > >> > John Wilson > >> > D Bit > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://www.corestore.org > >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 3 07:18:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? Message-ID: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > a currently non-working 1186 with an installation of the Lyric release > of Interlisp-D installed on the drive > ... > I have made a disk image of the ad-hoc font disk I created Might be a good idea to make an image of the entire Lyric hard drive, in case that drive fails, we won't lose the bits. Noel From cube1 at charter.net Sat Oct 3 08:11:48 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:11:48 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on manual database design? In-Reply-To: <04c501d0fdb5$3b1f0160$b15d0420$@gmail.com> References: <297EB138371B4EAFB639CDA1F27434BA@Daedalus> <560DAD2D.8090209@charter.net> <560EA9C9.9000209@charter.net> <695E88D9E84B4B25B238E2A45E6F69E8@310e2> <560EF1E3.1020205@charter.net> <081CA56436C646629E03629E7EA78D33@310e2> <560F0AFD.1070108@charter.net> <7827FA1E6D124939A63A404925D7277D@310e2> <560F2A86.8070408@charter.net> <04c501d0fdb5$3b1f0160$b15d0420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <560FD414.1020508@charter.net> On 10/3/2015 3:26 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> Yes, there is. That is why an *artifact* - a given *hardcopy* of a >> manual - has a *publisher*. As I mentioned in an earlier reply at some >> point to someone, a given manual applies to a single machine >> *manufacturer* (e.g., Apollo is considered the manufacturer of the DN >> series, even though, technically, later HP made them for a year or two), but a >> given manual with the same number the applies to them might have Apollo >> as a publisher (older copy) and HP (newer copy - with the same contents). >> >> A given hardcopy of a manual could not change publishers. The publisher is >> permanent characteristic of that copy. >> > > MOST attributes can change over time as new information comes to light. So for example I also follow one of the Slide Rule forums and new information as to who actually "Made" rather than "Sold" a particular rule all the time. Even the color fades.... > If I were interested in a museum quality inventory, I might worry about things to that level of detail. But as I stated early on, I am not. I am not about to worry about such things for 5,000+ manuals. Still, a given hardcopy cannot change who published it. It is written on the page. JRJ From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 10:33:12 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:33:12 +0200 Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2015 at 19:11, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 1 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > >> * m0n0wall > > > Isn't m0n0wall just a LiveCD for a firewall? It was when I used it last. Well, yes. Discontinued this year but has surviving forks t1n1wall and SmallWall. The interesting thing about m0n0wall technically, AIUI, is that it had removed almost all config files from /etc and everywhere else and stored all config in a single XML file, administered via a remote GUI written in PHP. This is pretty significant divergence from Unix standards, so in my view, counts as an interesting distro, yes -- even if a single-person one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 10:40:09 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:40:09 +0200 Subject: A new Lisp-based OS that hearkens back to the old days of comprehensible computers In-Reply-To: References: <20150930150822.8CAD318C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <560C5224.8060801@charter.net> <560C653D.4060405@sydex.com> Message-ID: Don't top-quote! On 1 October 2015 at 16:48, Sean Caron wrote: > Who knew? Not me :O Exactly. But my point was, _yes_, there _are_ lots of *BSD distributions. You not knowing about them doesn't change that! > But those are all kind of "piddly" (sorry) ... Not really, no. PC-BSD is over a decade old and is quite popular, for instance. I also suspect that some of the firewall distros are widely-used, but they're like the old Linux-based SmoothWall: get it right, they're close to fit-and-forget, so you see little to no noise online of the form of "how do I do X?" because you don't do anything with them. > I don't > think they have much "mindshare" or very many actual installations compared > to the top-line FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD ... [[citation needed]] Is this because you hadn't heard of them? > and those BSD repackagers > don't have so much potential influence to argue over the basic direction of > *BSD, versus say, Red Hat might have with Linux ... RH is not Linux. You know I worked for RH until last year, right? Nobody has that much control over Linux as a whole. The small-dev-team thing is part of the appeal of *BSD for many. But some of the distros introduce their own packaging formats and so on. Yes, they are significantly different. I'm not trying to be offensive, Sean, it just seems like you don't know much about this but aren't prepared to back down and admit that. > I would consider some like m0n0wall and pfSense exceptions because the goal > of the project is really to provide a pre-rolled security appliance rather > than an OS distribution proper ... same reason I wouldn't call PIAF a Linux > distribution, just a pre-rolled Asterisk appliance. Depends. As I said, I think the changes in the config-file structure of m0n0wall are so big and drastic that it definitely counts as a significantly different project. Another sort-of related project springs to mind: Minix 3. Minix 3 is a whole new OS, an actual honest-to-hypothetical-deity FOSS microkernel Unix-compatible OS. And it is gradually importing much of the NetBSD userland, piece by piece. So in time, Minix 3 will be very BSD-like, but with a genuinely new type of kernel. That's radical and arguably makes it a member of the BSD family. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 10:42:00 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:42:00 +0200 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> <201510022311.TAA12983@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 3 October 2015 at 02:05, Mike Stein wrote: > No problem here; OE wrapped to the size of the window. Please don't top-quote. And: seriously? You're still using Outlook Express?! Do you /want/ to be 0wned or something?! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 11:02:16 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:02:16 -0400 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> <201510022311.TAA12983@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <9C6D7C53BBB84FDE9740939734C3A213@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive On 3 October 2015 at 02:05, Mike Stein wrote: > No problem here; OE wrapped to the size of the > window. Please don't top-quote. And: seriously? You're still using Outlook Express?! Do you /want/ to be 0wned or something?! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 3 11:40:02 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:40:02 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:21 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm working to troubleshoot a 286 laptop style computer. I've kind of hit the end of my knowledge and wondering if anyone has any insight. > > The computer in question I've never seen run. So I don't know normal behavior. There were a few caps inside that were leaking electrolyte, I cleaned it all up and replaced them. A few traces look a little bit corroded but test fine. > > First thing I'm thinking, is did the BIOS eproms loose a bit or two of data from age? Bit rot? I did read off the two BIOS chips (high and low pair I assume.) I can see text like Copyright Pheonix Technologies 1988, but I can see that for instance the first character of the text Copyright is wrong, it's a P in one file and 9A in the other. > > Second thing I hooked up Oscope and cut on computer. It never does a floppy seek. When I poke around the 27c256 EPROM I see constant activity on all address lines, and all datalines. This includes the OE pin as well. Would a normal runnng computer hit the BIOS that much? > > Any thoughts appreciated! > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > When you drop into BIOS, is anything actually set? Can you set the time, and get it to stick? I have a Twinhead 386sx/16 I bought new, the only thing I've used it for in the past 20 years is a serial terminal, and every time I go to boot it, I have to drop into BIOS, and configure things, as the BIOS battery is long dead. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 3 12:20:56 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:21 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> I'm working to troubleshoot a 286 laptop style computer. I've kind of >> hit the end of my knowledge and wondering if anyone has any insight. >> The computer in question I've never seen run. So I don't know normal >> behavior. There were a few caps inside that were leaking electrolyte, I >> cleaned it all up and replaced them. A few traces look a little bit >> corroded but test fine. On Sat, 3 Oct 2015, Zane Healy wrote: > When you drop into BIOS, is anything actually set? Can you set the > time, and get it to stick? "WHEN"??!? First question: How far does the machine in question get in the start-up? Does it get to the point of initializing video? Do you get any POST codes? (those are BEFORE you can "drop into BIOS", which I assume means goto the "CMOS setup" > > I have a Twinhead 386sx/16 I bought new, the only thing I've used it for in the past 20 years is a serial terminal, and every time I go to boot it, I have to drop into BIOS, and configure things, as the BIOS battery is long dead. > > Zane > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 3 12:26:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:26:08 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Hello everyone, > > > > I'm working to troubleshoot a 286 laptop style computer. I've kind of hit the end > > of my knowledge and wondering if anyone has any insight. Make/model? (Just in case anyone knows it and knows if it has any quirks). > > > > The computer in question I've never seen run. So I don't know normal behavior. > > There were a few caps inside that were leaking electrolyte, I cleaned it all up and > > replaced them. A few traces look a little bit corroded but test fine. > > > > First thing I'm thinking, is did the BIOS eproms loose a bit or two of data from > > age? Bit rot? I did read off the two BIOS chips (high and low pair I assume.) I can > > see text like Copyright Pheonix Technologies 1988, but I can see that for instance > > the first character of the text Copyright is wrong, it's a P in one file and 9A in the > > other. That would worry me. If one bit of the BIOS program (as opposed to copyright messages) is wrong then the machine could well behave very oddly. Having found that I would want to get a known-good dump of the BIOS into EPROMs. That's an odd failure too. Most times true bit-rot turns 0's into 1's. Now assuming that first character should be 'C' (or 0x43), then in one case it becomes 'P' (0x50) and in the other it becomes 0x9A. In neither case is that simply setting bits that should be cleared. So perhaps not bit-rot but some other failure of the memory device. > > > > Second thing I hooked up Oscope and cut on computer. It never does a floppy seek. > > When I poke around the 27c256 EPROM I see constant activity on all address lines, > > and all datalines. This includes the OE pin as well. Would a normal runnng computer > > hit the BIOS that much? OE/ might be something as simple and MemRd/ (Memory Read). Is it bringing CS/ (chip select) low that often? A machine of that vintage may or may not 'shadow' the BIOS ROM -- that is copy it into RAM for faster access. If it does, then it probably won't access the ROM once the copy is complete (but is it completing the copy -- and detecting it has gone through all the locations ?). If it doesn't (which is actually quite likely) then it will be running a program from ROM to set up I/O devices and attempt to read the boot disk. Which means much of the processor activity _will_ be reading the BIOS ROM. > > > > Any thoughts appreciated! > When you drop into BIOS, is anything actually set? Can you set the time, and get it to stick? > > I have a Twinhead 386sx/16 I bought new, the only thing I've used it for in the past 20 years > is a serial terminal, and every time I go to boot it, I have to drop into BIOS, and configure > things, as the BIOS battery is long dead. Are you getting confused between the BIOS (the I/O drivers and bootstrap in EPROM) and the BIOS parameter table (often called the 'BIOS' or 'CMOS' (as it is stored in battery-backed CMOS RAM) by the PC crowd)? I was under the impression that the OP's machine didn't produce any display (does it? If so, what?) and doesn't respond to the keyboard. -tony From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 12:53:36 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:53:36 -0700 Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? In-Reply-To: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> I am the friend with the broken 1186, i've narrowed down the problem to the MPB/CPU board, which never successfully loads the microcode. I have done a little bit of work with it but need to reinstall the OS on my logic analyzer to see if I can get further. :) The machine wasn't cheap so that was a huge bummer but it's otherwise complete. I intend to take an image of the drive using David G's excellent MFM emulator, and would be more than happy to post it when I do. Sadly I recently moved and all my tools and related miscellaneous shit are in boxes so it will take me a little bit to get to. Don't want to get off topic, but some images I've already taken from other computers using this tool are uploaded here: http://x.quaalud.es/images/ Cheers, - Ian Sent from my iPhone On Oct 3, 2015, at 05:18, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Josh Dersch > >> a currently non-working 1186 with an installation of the Lyric release >> of Interlisp-D installed on the drive >> ... >> I have made a disk image of the ad-hoc font disk I created > > Might be a good idea to make an image of the entire Lyric hard drive, in case > that drive fails, we won't lose the bits. > > Noel From scaron at umich.edu Sat Oct 3 09:14:19 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:14:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for RRD40 caddy In-Reply-To: <01PRGWH5BC10009XOE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <15100220333097_20200C89@chocolatejollis.net> <01PRGWH5BC10009XOE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hey, I actually do have an RRD40 caddy laying around all in one piece ... A little dusty but in perfect shape. Send me your address off-list and I'll hook it up for you ... I'll try to swing by the post office on Monday. I think the chance another RRD40 will cross my path is pretty low so you're welcome to it. Best, Sean On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > I am looking for a CD caddy that is compatible with the DEC RRD40. > Willing > > to pay for the caddy + shipping; haven't had any luck with eBay et. al. > > > > Thanks, > > JP Willis > > > > I have some located on the Western edge of Europe but my super sixth sense > tells me you are probably located in the USA. If you don't find any > closer to > you, maybe we can work something out. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From sales at elecplus.com Sat Oct 3 13:09:24 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 13:09:24 -0500 Subject: IBM terminals update 2 Message-ID: <003f01d0fe06$a322cc50$e96864f0$@com> Without taking the skids apart, rough counts are , terminals - 57 keyboards - 77 printers - 4 line printer - 1 servers - 3 misc parts - 1 skid replacement bases ect all of the equipment is nice and white not yellowed so it looks good He wants to move it as a lot. He does not give a price point. Located in WI. Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 3 13:19:35 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 11:19:35 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56101C37.7040108@sydex.com> On 10/02/2015 11:28 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Chuck, > Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ > under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the > box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file, out of > the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more > straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH > image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I > found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early > interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not > implemented. Thanks for the kind words. I didn't do the reverse, as my interest lies primarily in retrieving data from old media, not creating more data on old media. Generally, I make the SIMH file from a tape and have a bunch of utilities to process the file for conversion to modern formats (code translation, deblocking, un-archiving, etc.). That being said, there are routines in that SCSI package for writing tape. They were borrowed from an old forensics package that had to pretty much work with any SCSI device, so I'm pretty confident that they'll work. They were replaced about 8 years of field use with a C++ version (much easier to handle the minutiae of tape when encapsulated as a C++ object). I'm sure that John's st() utilities are equally valuable, but I never could get them to work with my setup. The general problem with UNIX/BSD/Linux is that the philosophy there is that everything is basically a disk file, however physically embodied. Tapes are not disks. In general, I don't like most SCSI tape drives for data retrieval, as the SCSI interface seems to require that implied read-ahead be used to keep the tape moving. There's nothing quite like watching a SCSI tape drive going through a "scrubbing" cycle trying to read a tape block that you never asked for. --Chuck From erik at baigar.de Sat Oct 3 13:18:58 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> Message-ID: Hi Simon, Hello to the group, this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and if your plotter looks like this... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? Best regards, Erik. P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does your plotter have got three colors? On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Hi All, > > the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two > big > PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos > and > drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the > computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. > > So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB may not > be > necessary. Have you tried this? > > The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a problem on > the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But unfortunately > it is > stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks if there is > real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card for > safety > some years ago... > > Erik, erik at baigar.de > > >> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >> geschrieben: >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service >>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as >>> per the user guide. >> >> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check >> and/or >> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers >> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >> >> -tony From erik at baigar.de Sat Oct 3 13:18:58 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> Message-ID: Hi Simon, Hello to the group, this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and if your plotter looks like this... http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? Best regards, Erik. P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does your plotter have got three colors? On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Hi All, > > the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: There are two > big > PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving the servos > and > drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains the > computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. > > So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB may not > be > necessary. Have you tried this? > > The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a problem on > the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But unfortunately > it is > stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks if there is > real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card for > safety > some years ago... > > Erik, erik at baigar.de > > >> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >> geschrieben: >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any service >>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are loaded as >>> per the user guide. >> >> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, check >> and/or >> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many manufacturers >> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >> >> -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 13:31:53 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 Subject: This is sad... Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 10 left 27 sold. Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a conversation piece hanged on the wall. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 3 13:36:43 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 11:36:43 -0700 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 Mattis Lind wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 > > 10 left 27 sold. > > Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a > conversation piece hanged on the wall. I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 3 13:57:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:57:02 +0200 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561024FE.7050804@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-03 20:31, Mattis Lind wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 > > 10 left 27 sold. > > Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a > conversation piece hanged on the wall. Yup. Which is a big reason I dislike eBay, people who chop computers and and sell them in bits, and people who go on lists and ask "how much is this worth?", since in many cases it's because they're trying to figure out how much money they can make chopping something up, and they don't even know what bits go together, or what they are actually sitting on. It's all just money... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 3 13:57:41 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:57:41 +0200 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-03 20:36, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 > Mattis Lind wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 >> >> 10 left 27 sold. >> >> Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a >> conversation piece hanged on the wall. > > I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. In many cases they are repairable, if someone just cares enough... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 3 15:04:18 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 13:04:18 -0700 Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? In-Reply-To: <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> References: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561034C2.9080905@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/15 10:53 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I am the friend with the broken 1186, i've narrowed down the problem to the MPB/CPU board I have boxes of spare 6085/1186 boards. Are you in Seattle? From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 15:44:02 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 16:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Make/model? (Just in case anyone knows it and knows if it has any > quirks). Yamaha C1, one of these: > That would worry me. If one bit of the BIOS program (as opposed to > copyright messages) > is wrong then the machine could well behave very oddly. Having found > that I would want toget a known-good dump of the BIOS into EPROMs. It doesn't behave at all. The LCD backlight never comes on, and it always thinks that it's in external video mode. There is a dip switch on the back to set this between internal and external display, and it never switches to internal. I don't have a CGA monitor, but I tried to cross wire a Commodore 1084S over to it and nothing. >That's an odd failure too. Most times true bit-rot turns 0's into 1's. > Now assuming that first character should be 'C' (or 0x43), then in one > case it becomes 'P' (0x50) and in the other it becomes 0x9A. In neither > case is that simply setting bits that should be cleared. So perhaps > not bit-rot but some other failure of the memory device. Hmm yea I just looked. I pulled a chip and put it in the reader. The first read looked similar, then it seems to be going downhill. The reader I have supports the device directly (ATMEL 27C256), and it's a Needham EMP-100. Just tried setting it to AMD and a few other brands but I don't think that changes the read speed or power or anything. > OE/ might be something as simple and MemRd/ (Memory Read). Is it > bringing CS/ (chip select) > low that often? Yea the CS is staying active. Since it never really POSTS or brings up the LCD backlight, it never does a floppy seek. I'm guessing the CPU is stuck in an instruction loop or something, possibly because BIOS is damaged? > A machine of that vintage may or may not 'shadow' the BIOS ROM -- that > is copy it into RAM for faster access. If it does, then it probably > won't access the ROM once the copy is complete (but is > it completing the copy -- and detecting it has gone through all the > locations ?). If it doesn't (which > is actually quite likely) then it will be running a program from ROM to > set up I/O devices and attempt > to read the boot disk. Which means much of the processor activity _will_ > be reading the BIOS ROM. I'll look through the manual to see if it has an option to shadow ROM BIOS. I remember that options on the later computers! > When you drop into BIOS, is anything actually set? Can you set the time, and get it to stick? Never gets this far unfortunately. > > I have a Twinhead 386sx/16 I bought new, the only thing I've used it for in the past 20 years > is a serial terminal, and every time I go to boot it, I have to drop into BIOS, and configure > things, as the BIOS battery is long dead. Yup, I've seen that. This machine has a rechargable battery set of 3 coin looking things in a nice pack that is separated from the motherboard and everything. Great design. It's a strange laptop format computer that has no battery option. > Are you getting confused between the BIOS (the I/O drivers and bootstrap > in EPROM) and the > BIOS parameter table (often called the 'BIOS' or 'CMOS' (as it is stored > in battery-backed CMOS RAM) by the PC crowd)? I was under the impression > that the OP's machine didn't produce any display (does it? If so, what?) > and doesn't respond to the keyboard. No display, the LCD actually never lights up. There is an option to switch between external CGA or internal LCD, no matter what setting the dip switch is set to it always says external display -- another hint that something is very wrong. Thanks for the replies! I'm trying to find someone with a working machine and going to ask them to run a bios dump utility. Not sure if it will work but short of finding a working specimin it's my next hope. There is a 3rd Eprom in the machine, it's not a bios and it won't be readable by the bios dump util I found so another potential issue. -- Ethan O'Toole From oltmansg at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 15:47:22 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:47:22 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> References: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5F009813-3FBE-4398-B487-66BFD2576DA1@gmail.com> On the downside they could have ended up in the dump many years ago... Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-10-03 20:36, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 >> Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 >>> >>> 10 left 27 sold. >>> >>> Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a >>> conversation piece hanged on the wall. >> >> I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. > > In many cases they are repairable, if someone just cares enough... > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 3 16:05:34 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 14:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Yamaha C1, one of these: > It doesn't behave at all. The LCD backlight never comes on, and it always > thinks that it's in external video mode. There is a dip switch on the back to > set this between internal and external display, and it never switches to > internal. I don't have a CGA monitor, but I tried to cross wire a Commodore > 1084S over to it and nothing. Using your oscilloscope, does the external video connector show anythings resembling a video signal? BTW, SOME after-market "CGA" connectors added a signal for composite video, which would be relatively easy to interface to. Does your manual have connector pinout? > Yea the CS is staying active. Since it never really POSTS or brings up the > LCD backlight, it never does a floppy seek. Do you have a floppy in the drive? Some "smart" systems won't try to seek the floppy if they already figured out that there's no disk in it. > I'm guessing the CPU is stuck in > an instruction loop or something, possibly because BIOS is damaged? That, unfortunately seems likely. On a 286 machine with internal/external video, the BIOS is likely to be farily unique, unlike most desktops, where many other BIOSs would work. > No display, the LCD actually never lights up. There is an option to switch > between external CGA or internal LCD, no matter what setting the dip switch > is set to it always says external display -- another hint that something is > very wrong. "SAYS external display"? how? by lighting an LED? > I'm trying to find someone with a working machine and going to ask them to > run a bios dump utility. Not sure if it will work but short of finding a > working specimin it's my next hope. If you can find a duplicate machine, that can confirm/solve bad BIOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 3 16:07:03 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: This is sad... Message-ID: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > Which is a big reason I dislike eBay, people who chop computers and and > sell them in bits, and people who go on lists and ask "how much is this > worth?", since in many cases it's because they're trying to figure out > how much money they can make > ... > It's all just money... Well, I agree, sometimes the machine is disassmbled in a way that harms the components, or vital components are thrown away/re-cycled because 'they don't seem like they are useful/valuable' (case in point, cables - people save the boards, and throw away the cables - as a result of which, for many boards, we have more boards than we need, and no cables). On the other hand, if this stuff _wasn't_ worth money, most people would just re-cycle it, or pitch it. That would be better? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 3 16:13:04 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! Message-ID: <20151003211304.D6AA518C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > Do you get any POST codes? How about beep codes? (A lot of machines give them out when things are too effed up to even display anything.) Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Oct 3 16:00:24 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:00:24 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware Message-ID: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Hi Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. I know that 7.3 is the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions run on which hardware. For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? Or would 7.3 run on a 11/730? A somewhat open ended question, but I'm rather clueless to the whole thing. Also, what separates MicroVMS from VMS? Thanks, Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 17:03:28 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:03:28 -0500 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. A ready-to-read table? I do not know of one, but it sounds like a good idea. I know that 7.3 is > the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions > run on which hardware. Yes. > For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? No. > Or would 7.3 run on a 11/730? I don't think so. the SPDs will contain the official list of what hardware is supported. Disk and memory size are critical to what's in and what is not. Additionally, sometimes, you can stretch some of the limits, but it would have been unsupported (like me running VMS 6.x on a MicroVax II w/RQDX3 and RD54 - the disk was _very_ tight, but the OS itself had no specific problems running). -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 3 17:19:45 2015 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:19:45 -0400 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> Even the people who do save hardware for collectors tend to dump any original software they have, plus many hardware collectors don't bother with legit software. -----Original Message----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 5:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: This is sad... > It's all just money... Well, I agree, sometimes the machine is disassmbled in a way that harms the components, or vital components are thrown away/re-cycled because 'they don't seem like they are useful/valuable' (case in point, cables - people save the boards, and throw away the cables - as a result of which, for many boards, we have more boards than we need, and no cables). On the other hand, if this stuff _wasn't_ worth money, most people would just re-cycle it, or pitch it. That would be better? Noel --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 17:20:40 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Using your oscilloscope, does the external video connector show anythings > resembling a video signal? > BTW, SOME after-market "CGA" connectors added a signal for composite video, > which would be relatively easy to interface to. Does your manual have > connector pinout? It does! I just looked in it. So there is a video pin (good news), bad news is .. it's Herculeas! The old high resolution monochrome output. Dip switch 1 switches between CGA external and internal, 2 turns on herculeas mode. When it's in CGA mode it says that a pull up or down resistor is applied and the video signal on that pin is disabled. > Do you have a floppy in the drive? Some "smart" systems won't try to seek > the floppy if they already figured out that there's no disk in it. I tried it with one, nothing. It has a hard drive and hard drive controller as well (20MB, custom interface board.) > That, unfortunately seems likely. On a 286 machine with internal/external > video, the BIOS is likely to be farily unique, unlike most desktops, where > many other BIOSs would work. Yea. A while ago I traced back the dip switch to some IC which is likely read during startup of the system by the bios, which in turn selects internal or external display. > "SAYS external display"? how? by lighting an LED? Correct, LED shows if external display is selected. > If you can find a duplicate machine, that can confirm/solve bad BIOS. I might be able to get hold of the bios, but I'm worried about the 3rd EPROM. It sits in the middle of a bunch of Yamaha branded chips. The BIOS chips are in the middle of a Chips & Technologies 286 chipset group. The people I find might be able to dump the BIOS via dos program but not that 3rd IC. But at least if I could split the one I could compare it. Here are mainboard pics I took when doing the cap replacement: http://imgur.com/a/CQHcy I might recheck that mess near C113 And sharing is caring, here is floppy disk images of the software (more rare than the computer rare) that goes with the computer (fairly rare in working condition.) I'm going to scan all the documentation I have eventually and add it. Looking at the docs the expansion connector might be good enough to be ISA. Hmmm PC IDE for it!?! https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/geek/Software/Yamaha_C1_Laptop/ -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 17:21:04 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: <20151003211304.D6AA518C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151003211304.D6AA518C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > How about beep codes? (A lot of machines give them out when things are too > effed up to even display anything.) > Noel It's got a piezo speaker in it. It's never made a peep :-( -- Ethan O'Toole From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Sat Oct 3 17:24:15 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:24:15 -0400 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <0644DD21-765C-4C4E-8555-61E51917DE53@VMSSoftware.com> Please note that VMS is now owned by VMS Software Inc (VSI) and VMS is all we do, no hardware, no storage just VMS, USA company. We just released OpenVMS v8.4-1h1 with much more in the pipeline. Warm Regards, Sue > On Oct 3, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Hi >> >> Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. > > A ready-to-read table? I do not know of one, but it sounds like a good idea. > > I know that 7.3 is >> the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions >> run on which hardware. > > Yes. > >> For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? > > No. > >> Or would 7.3 run on a 11/730? > > I don't think so. > > the SPDs will contain the official list of what hardware is supported. > Disk and memory size are critical to what's in and what is not. > Additionally, sometimes, you can stretch some of the limits, but it > would have been unsupported (like me running VMS 6.x on a MicroVax II > w/RQDX3 and RD54 - the disk was _very_ tight, but the OS itself had no > specific problems running). > > -ethan Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 3 17:25:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:25:59 +0200 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <5F009813-3FBE-4398-B487-66BFD2576DA1@gmail.com> References: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> <5F009813-3FBE-4398-B487-66BFD2576DA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561055F7.3060500@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-03 22:47, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > On the downside they could have ended up in the dump many years ago... True. But in this case - what's the difference? Johnny > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> On 2015-10-03 20:36, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 >>> Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 >>>> >>>> 10 left 27 sold. >>>> >>>> Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a >>>> conversation piece hanged on the wall. >>> >>> I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. >> >> In many cases they are repairable, if someone just cares enough... >> >> Johnny >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 3 17:51:28 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:51:28 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-03 23:00, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. I know that 7.3 is > the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions > run on which hardware. I know that DEC had some information on the first version of VMS for specific models, but I don't know if I've a comprehensive list. > For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? Or would 7.3 run on a > 11/730? VAX/VMS 1.0 only ran on the 11/780. No other hardware supported. So, no. VAX/VMS 1.0 would not run on a VAXstation 4000. OpenVMS 7.3 was the last release. And with that release, a few early VAX models were officially not supported. However, I think it should work, in theory. There is always the question of the machine being slow enough, or not have enough memory, to maybe cause problems. But DEC never removed the hardware support code. But at OpenVMS 7.3, they no longer even had the hardware around to verify that it worked, so it was officially unsupported. (Or that's my understanding anyway.) As far as I can remember, none of the VAX-11 models were officially supported by OpenVMS 7.3. The oldest model that were supported (if I remember right) was the VAX 86x0. It should be possible to find the OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 upgrade manual online, which should give a little more detail on which models were dropped form supported. > Also, what separates MicroVMS from VMS? MicroVMS was specifically tailored for MicroVAX machines, back when they had rather limited amount of disk. One RD53 or so... So, it was trimmed down, with components not needed for the specific platforms removed, some things tailored differently, and some things moved into optional extras, which you could buy/install if you happened to have more money and hardware resources. It also came on one TK50, or about 20 RX50 floppies, for installation. (I have some "fun" memories of installing it from floppies when I was working at DEC in the mid-80s... Remind me when we meet, and I'll tell you all about it.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From oltmansg at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 18:03:22 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:03:22 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <561055F7.3060500@update.uu.se> References: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> <5F009813-3FBE-4398-B487-66BFD2576DA1@gmail.com> <561055F7.3060500@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <9DE9C872-8541-4C0F-9167-23E0BC391A47@gmail.com> Well, as was mentioned before, nothing stopping a determined enough collector from repairing it... Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-10-03 22:47, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> On the downside they could have ended up in the dump many years ago... > > True. > But in this case - what's the difference? > > Johnny > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2015-10-03 20:36, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 >>>> Mattis Lind wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 >>>>> >>>>> 10 left 27 sold. >>>>> >>>>> Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be used as a >>>>> conversation piece hanged on the wall. >>>> >>>> I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. >>> >>> In many cases they are repairable, if someone just cares enough... >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 3 18:10:08 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 00:10:08 +0100 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56106050.7070801@ntlworld.com> On 03/10/15 23:03, Ethan Dicks wrote: > the SPDs will contain the official list of what hardware is supported. Exactly, although the hard part will be finding SPDs for each version. For the versions that shipped on CD it should be easier as they (almost all, I think) included the relevant SPD somewhere. I don't know of anyone who has compiled a full list of what is supported for any given version. I also don't know of a good place to get SPDs. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 18:34:52 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 16:34:52 -0700 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <56106050.7070801@ntlworld.com> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56106050.7070801@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: There is this OpenVMS Release History which has some useful information. It only goes back to V4.0: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt Here is a copy of the SPD 25.01.69 for HP OpenVMS Operating System for Alpha Version 7.3-1 and 7.3-2, and VAX Version 7.3: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/spdalpha731732vax73.pdf >From the above SPD 25.01.69: System Restrictions OpenVMS VAX Version 5.1-1 is the final version to support the following systems: VAX-11/725 OpenVMS VAX Version 6.2 is the final version to support the following systems: VAX-11/730 VAX-11/750 VAX-11/751 VAX-11/780 VAX-11/782 VAX-11/785 VAXft 110 VAXft 310 VAXft 410 VAXft 610 VAXft 810 MicroVAX I VAXstation I OpenVMS VAX Version 7.2 is the final version to support the following systems: MicroVAX II VAXstation II/GPX VAXstation II/QVSS VAXstation 2000 VAXstation 2000/GPX VAXstation 2000/MFB MicroVAX 2000 OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 is the final version to support the following systems: VAX 8200, VAX 8250, VAXserver 8200, VAXserver 8250 VAX 8300, VAX 8350, VAXserver 8300, VAXserver 8350 VAX 8530, VAXserver 8530, VAX 8550, VAXserver 8550 VAX 8600, VAX 8650, VAXserver 8600, VAXserver 8650 VAX 8700, VAXserver 8700 VAX 8800, VAX 8810, VAX 8820, VAX 8830, VAX 8840 VAXserver 8800, VAXserver 8810, VAXserver 8820, VAXserver 8830, VAXserver 8840, VAX 8842, VAX 8974, VAX 8978 VAX 9000, Models 110, 110VP, 210, 210VP, 310, 310VP VAX 9000, Models 320, 320VP, 330, 330VP, 340, 340VP VAX 9000, Models 410, 410VP, 420, 420VP, 430, 430VP, 440, 440VP From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 3 19:21:05 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2015 19:21:05 -0500 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> On 10/03/2015 04:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. I know that 7.3 is > the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions > run on which hardware. > > For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? No, absolutely not. I know that 4.3-4.7 will not run (properly) on a KA-650. In general, it boots up, but doesn't have a machine check handler that is compatible with the 650 architecture. I ran into that one myself. > Or would 7.3 run on a > 11/730? > Maybe, but the 730 might not support enough memory to properly run. Jon From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 3 19:41:59 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 19:41:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I might be able to get hold of the bios, but I'm worried about the 3rd > EPROM. It sits in the middle of a bunch of Yamaha branded chips. The > BIOS chips are in the middle of a Chips & Technologies 286 chipset > group. The people I find might be able to dump the BIOS via dos program > but not that 3rd IC. But at least if I could split the one I could > compare it. > > Here are mainboard pics I took when doing the cap replacement: > http://imgur.com/a/CQHcy > I might recheck that mess near C113 Did you only replace those small green Nichicon parts? If so, I would inspect/test the others as well. My experience with these type of early mixed SMD/through-hole boards is that some companies tried to reflow them with the small electrolytics already in place which would damage their seals and cause them to leak as they aged. It doesn't seem to be specific to any particular brand/series either as I've seen Nichicon, Nippon, Panasonic, etc all affected by this. If a new set of BIOS EPROMs doesn't fix it, it might be time to look into an in circuit emulator for the 80286. PODs for LCC sockets do exist, although they might be harder to find than a POD for the PLCC or PGA versions. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:51:02 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 17:51:02 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS Message-ID: <003a01d0fe3e$bee1c940$3ca55bc0$@gmail.com> Thanks, this looks perfect. And indeed my tape is ID 5 (brainwaves anyone?). Can you elaborate on the differences between E11 and SIMH? When is it the same, when will it not be compatible? Marc ================================ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 02:52:36 -0400 From: John Wilson My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe) to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). Not picky at all. "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI driver for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. John Wilson D Bit =============================== From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:53:00 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 19:53:00 -0500 Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151004005300.GA26270@gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I'm trying to find someone with a working machine and going to ask them to > run a bios dump utility. Not sure if it will work but short of finding a > working specimin it's my next hope. I assume you already know of Markus Kunn: -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 20:22:12 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:22:12 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: <20151002155934.GC17142@impakt.net> <201510021829.OAA20637@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151002195142.GD17142@impakt.net> <201510022311.TAA12983@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20151004012212.GC26270@gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 October 2015 at 02:05, Mike Stein wrote: > > No problem here; OE wrapped to the size of the window. > > > Please don't top-quote. > > And: seriously? You're still using Outlook Express?! Do you /want/ to > be 0wned or something?! Yeah, there's classic computing and then there's... whatever THAT is. *g* -- Eric Christopherson From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 3 20:36:59 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 18:36:59 -0700 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure I have one, but I'll need to look. Sent from my iPod > On Oct 3, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Hi > > Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. I know that 7.3 is > the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions > run on which hardware. > > For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? Or would 7.3 run on a > 11/730? > > A somewhat open ended question, but I'm rather clueless to the whole thing. > > Also, what separates MicroVMS from VMS? > > Thanks, > Pontus. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 22:49:28 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:49:28 -0400 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 3 October 2015 at 18:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: > As far as I can remember, none of the VAX-11 models were officially > supported by OpenVMS 7.3. The oldest model that were supported (if I > remember right) was the VAX 86x0. Glen Slick posted the official list of what was supported and what had support dropped for it. However?: $ sho cpu NEBULA, a VAX-11/730 Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded. PRIMARY CPU = 00 Active CPUs: 00 Configured CPUs: 00 $ sho mem System Memory Resources on 3-OCT-2015 23:21:43.53 Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Modified Main Memory (5.00Mb) 10240 3704 6439 97 Virtual I/O Cache Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Maximum Cache Memory 347 0 347 3819 Slot Usage (slots): Total Free Resident Swapped Process Entry Slots 80 70 10 0 Balance Set Slots 17 9 8 0 Dynamic Memory Usage (bytes): Total Free In Use Largest Nonpaged Dynamic Memory 765440 341248 424192 233984 Paged Dynamic Memory 558080 431888 126192 431440 Paging File Usage (pages): Free Reservable Total DISK$OVMSVAXSYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS 1008 1008 1008 DISK$OVMSVAXSYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYS 31985 17850 34000 Of the physical pages in use, 4063 pages are permanently allocated to OpenVMS. $ sho sys OpenVMS V7.3 on node NEBULA 3-OCT-2015 23:21:48.08 Uptime 0 00:12:13 Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page flts Pages 00000081 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:00:00.04 0 0 00000084 CONFIGURE HIB 8 10 0 00:00:00.01 113 158 00000086 IPCACP HIB 10 6 0 00:00:00.01 128 95 00000087 ERRFMT HIB 8 32 0 00:00:00.02 145 211 00000089 OPCOM HIB 8 52 0 00:00:00.03 327 96 0000008A AUDIT_SERVER HIB 10 68 0 00:00:00.09 690 488 0000008B JOB_CONTROL HIB 10 27 0 00:00:00.02 191 200 0000008C SECURITY_SERVER HIB 10 32 0 00:00:00.09 2533 456 0000008E SYSTEM CUR 7 544 0 00:00:02.39 3769 349 $ So yes, [Open]VMS 7.3 will run on a VAX-11 series VAX. And probably even on a microVAX as well (though I haven't tried). That's SIMH, by the way, not a real 11/730. (Unfortunately.) Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 22:53:26 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 23:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: <20151004005300.GA26270@gmail.com> References: <20151004005300.GA26270@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I assume you already know of Markus Kunn: > Yes! Pretty wild, I had the bottom post on there. Just posted another post on there hoping to find someone with a working laptop. -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 3 23:10:32 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Did you only replace those small green Nichicon parts? If so, I would > inspect/test the others as well. My experience with these type of early mixed > SMD/through-hole boards is that some companies tried to reflow them with the > small electrolytics already in place which would damage their seals and cause > them to leak as they aged. It doesn't seem to be specific to any particular > brand/series either as I've seen Nichicon, Nippon, Panasonic, etc all > affected by this. I only replaced the one style that was leaking on the mainboard, there is also a bunch of others I think that are smaller. On the driver board that runs the LCD I recapped it as well. I'll go back and look at the smaller caps. I put the oscope on the power lines and didn't see crazy ripple, but I only used an analog 20mhz tektronix not the crazy heavy old HP thing with the high frequency. > If a new set of BIOS EPROMs doesn't fix it, it might be time to look into an > in circuit emulator for the 80286. PODs for LCC sockets do exist, although > they might be harder to find than a POD for the PLCC or PGA versions. Hmmm that would be cool :-) Hopefully it doesn't get to that though. -- Ethan O'Toole From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 3 23:41:59 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 05:41:59 +0100 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <561055F7.3060500@update.uu.se> References: <20151003113643.31d0ca91@asrock.bcwi.net> <56102525.50402@update.uu.se> <5F009813-3FBE-4398-B487-66BFD2576DA1@gmail.com> <561055F7.3060500@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5610AE17.3040303@btinternet.com> Save your money for something thats at least repairable if not working. Don't buy trash from this guy. Rod On 03/10/2015 23:25, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-03 22:47, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> On the downside they could have ended up in the dump many years ago... > > True. > But in this case - what's the difference? > > Johnny > >> orking. >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>>> On 2015-10-03 20:36, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 20:31:53 +0200 >>>> Mattis Lind wrote: >>>> >>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111410385883 >>>>> >>>>> 10 left 27 sold. >>>>> >>>>> Once they could have been used by someone. Now they can only be >>>>> used as a >>>>> conversation piece hanged on the wall. >>>> >>>> I know the seller. He is very knowledgeable about vintage HP >>>> systems - and all of these have bad (as in unrepairable) cores. >>> >>> In many cases they are repairable, if someone just cares enough... >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 23:49:49 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:49:49 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS Message-ID: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> John, Your program worked beautifully writing a SIMH format file on my HP 88780 tape! Thanks a million. Nothing like sending direct SCSI commands to tape from DOS. Drivers are overrated ;-). Marc ================================ Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 02:52:36 -0400 From: John Wilson My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe) to a real tape[...] John Wilson D Bit =============================== From scaron at umich.edu Sat Oct 3 18:01:55 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 19:01:55 -0400 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I remember 15 or 20 years ago there was a pretty active collector scene with lots of people saving "worthless" or "junk" equipment from garbage cans, scrap heaps, loading docks, dispo yards and the like ... there was lots of redistribution of stuff for just shipping and maybe a minor consideration ... many nice workstations and servers changing hands for $100, $50... cost of shipping and a small consideration ... It didn't take high prices to have a vibrant scene ... Being a collector has definitely made me more conscientious when I'm prepping gear for disposition at work! Drive sleds, console cables and all the other little things it helps to make a complete machine, I try hard to keep all together when I package it up and send it off. Best, Sean On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > Which is a big reason I dislike eBay, people who chop computers and > and > > sell them in bits, and people who go on lists and ask "how much is > this > > worth?", since in many cases it's because they're trying to figure > out > > how much money they can make > > ... > > It's all just money... > > Well, I agree, sometimes the machine is disassmbled in a way that harms the > components, or vital components are thrown away/re-cycled because 'they > don't > seem like they are useful/valuable' (case in point, cables - people save > the > boards, and throw away the cables - as a result of which, for many boards, > we > have more boards than we need, and no cables). > > On the other hand, if this stuff _wasn't_ worth money, most people would > just > re-cycle it, or pitch it. That would be better? > > Noel > From scaron at umich.edu Sat Oct 3 18:09:04 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 19:09:04 -0400 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> Message-ID: Software is a different story because technically it's licensed and not purchased outright like hardware is ... we can't dispo software ... it all has to be destroyed ... the licenses are generally non-transferrable... Getting the software is definitely half the battle! But it's increasingly possible to do between things that have become more or less abandonware, to vendors that have had hobbyist programs, to systems that have an implicit RTU to the OS that follows from hardware ownership ... it depends. Software preservation is definitely important; I try to save everything that I can get my hands on, especially operating systems and compilers - the basics! Best, Sean On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 6:19 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Even the people who do save hardware for collectors tend to dump any > original software they have, plus many hardware collectors don't bother > with legit software. > > -----Original Message----- From: Noel Chiappa > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 5:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: This is sad... > > > It's all just money... > > Well, I agree, sometimes the machine is disassmbled in a way that harms the > components, or vital components are thrown away/re-cycled because 'they > don't > seem like they are useful/valuable' (case in point, cables - people save > the > boards, and throw away the cables - as a result of which, for many boards, > we > have more boards than we need, and no cables). > > On the other hand, if this stuff _wasn't_ worth money, most people would > just > re-cycle it, or pitch it. That would be better? > > Noel > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Oct 4 00:02:40 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 00:02:40 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> Message-ID: <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 07:09:04PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: > Software preservation is definitely important remember that with the latest US laws, that certain data (e.g. hard drives, magnetic media) *must* be destroyed on the supposition that they contain sensitive personal data. If you don't do so, you can create yourself a legal liability. (do NOT ask me about equipment sold by someone in South Austin who is now out of business, who should have been wiping drives.) mcl From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 4 00:18:23 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:18:23 -0700 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > No, absolutely not. I know that 4.3-4.7 will not run (properly) on a KA-650. In general, it boots up, but doesn't have a machine check handler that is compatible with the 650 architecture. I ran into that one myself. That's interesting, my system with a KA-650 ran 4.x originally, I forget the actual version, but I think it was 4.6. Sadly it was on the RD53 that came with the system, and the RD53 cratered before I could get a backup. :-( Zane From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 4 00:22:52 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 01:22:52 -0400 Subject: This is sad... Message-ID: hmmm.... be careful of that core..... may contain launch codes Ed# In a message dated 10/3/2015 10:02:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, linimon at lonesome.com writes: On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 07:09:04PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: > Software preservation is definitely important remember that with the latest US laws, that certain data (e.g. hard drives, magnetic media) *must* be destroyed on the supposition that they contain sensitive personal data. If you don't do so, you can create yourself a legal liability. (do NOT ask me about equipment sold by someone in South Austin who is now out of business, who should have been wiping drives.) mcl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 01:22:52 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 06:22:52 +0000 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Well, I agree, sometimes the machine is disassmbled in a way that harms the > components, or vital components are thrown away/re-cycled because 'they don't > seem like they are useful/valuable' (case in point, cables - people save the > boards, and throw away the cables - as a result of which, for many boards, we > have more boards than we need, and no cables). Or when the previous owner thinks he's traced the fault to a module -- say a PCB and throws that away because it is useless ARGH. (a) That might not be the fault (b) Even if it is, it can probably be repaired or used for spares for some other machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 01:28:18 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 06:28:18 +0000 Subject: Troubleshooting a 286.. oscope level! In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: > might be able to get hold of the bios, but I'm worried about the 3rd Remember the BIOS might have been specifically modified for that machine. Things like internal/external video selection are not going to be in a generic desktop mchine BIOS > EPROM. It sits in the middle of a bunch of Yamaha branded chips. The BIOS That may well be the display character generator. In which case if it contains _something_ you will get a display. -tony From simski at dds.nl Sun Oct 4 02:11:10 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:11:10 +0200 Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> Message-ID: <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Hi Eric, Yes, that looks the one we have, and yes it has the three pen holder. I found a user guide of the machine, but our left control panel area is different than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. On our machine, the pcb DIL connector from the terminal connector on the back was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. How is yours wired? please take a photo of the main pcb with al the dip switch settings so we can compare, Besides the side positioned jumper switches, there are also some dials and switches in other formats on the board. those are also interesting. I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair yesterday. How many ram chips are on your board. on ours there seems to be two missing. I'm thinking about a setup to test the socketed 2114 RAM chips based on a microcontroller with just a simple good or fault indicator. On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Simon, Hello to the group, > > this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and > if your plotter looks like this... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif > > ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to > scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web > page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? > > Best regards, > > Erik. > > P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the > PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does > your plotter have got three colors? > > > On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> >> Hi All, >> >> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >> There are two >> big >> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >> the servos >> and >> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >> the >> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >> >> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >> may not >> be >> necessary. Have you tried this? >> >> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >> problem on >> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >> unfortunately >> it is >> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >> if there is >> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >> for >> safety >> some years ago... >> >> Erik, erik at baigar.de >> >> >>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >>> geschrieben: >>> >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>> service >>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>> loaded as >>>> per the user guide. >>> >>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>> check >>> and/or >>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>> manufacturers >>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>> >>> -tony > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Sun Oct 4 02:11:10 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:11:10 +0200 Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> Message-ID: <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Hi Eric, Yes, that looks the one we have, and yes it has the three pen holder. I found a user guide of the machine, but our left control panel area is different than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. On our machine, the pcb DIL connector from the terminal connector on the back was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. How is yours wired? please take a photo of the main pcb with al the dip switch settings so we can compare, Besides the side positioned jumper switches, there are also some dials and switches in other formats on the board. those are also interesting. I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair yesterday. How many ram chips are on your board. on ours there seems to be two missing. I'm thinking about a setup to test the socketed 2114 RAM chips based on a microcontroller with just a simple good or fault indicator. On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Simon, Hello to the group, > > this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and > if your plotter looks like this... > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif > > ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to > scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web > page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? > > Best regards, > > Erik. > > P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the > PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does > your plotter have got three colors? > > > On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> >> Hi All, >> >> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >> There are two >> big >> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >> the servos >> and >> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >> the >> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >> >> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >> may not >> be >> necessary. Have you tried this? >> >> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >> problem on >> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >> unfortunately >> it is >> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >> if there is >> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >> for >> safety >> some years ago... >> >> Erik, erik at baigar.de >> >> >>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >>> geschrieben: >>> >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>> service >>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>> loaded as >>>> per the user guide. >>> >>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>> check >>> and/or >>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>> manufacturers >>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>> >>> -tony > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From wilson at dbit.com Sun Oct 4 02:32:51 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 03:32:51 -0400 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> References: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151004073251.GA32349@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 09:49:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >Your program worked beautifully writing a SIMH format file on my HP 88780 >tape! Beauty -- glad to hear it! The difference is that SIMH's native format pads records to even sizes before appending the "length" longword, and E11's doesn't. But most popular tape labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no difference. John Wilson D Bit From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 08:30:23 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 06:30:23 -0700 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Oct 3, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> No, absolutely not. I know that 4.3-4.7 will not run (properly) on a KA-650. In general, it boots up, but doesn't have a machine check handler that is compatible with the 650 architecture. I ran into that one myself. > > That's interesting, my system with a KA-650 ran 4.x originally, I forget the actual version, but I think it was 4.6. Sadly it was on the RD53 that came with the system, and the RD53 cratered before I could get a backup. :-( > > Zane http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt According to that release history version V4.7A in 28-MAR-1988 was a Limited HW Release for the VAXstation 3200/3500 Mayfair I KA650. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 4 11:48:15 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:48:15 -0700 Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? In-Reply-To: <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> References: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5611584F.2050801@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/15 10:53 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I intend to take an image of the drive using David G's excellent MFM emulator File-level is probably adequate. I have dozens of original distribution disk sets for the 1186; Koto, Lyric and Medley. I dug out the Koto and Lyric display font disks this morning, still haven't turned up any for Medley. I don't know if I have full distributions for Medley 1.1 and 1.2 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 12:46:29 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 19:46:29 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: I have spent some time on the ill PDP-11/10 this weekend. I have this machine already a few years, but I recently got an empty H960 rack, which would be the perfect home for this PDP-11/10. When I picked up this 11/10, the story with it was "not good". "We put the boards in the backplane and switched on the machine. When we saw smoke, we turned it off. We did not know that the boards had to go in specific slots ..."! This machine is an 11/10"S" with 16KW core in the 9-slot CPU backplane. So, possibly the +20V core supply voltage fried ICs. However, a visual inspection did not show any blown ICs. After removing all boards (stored in ESD-safe bags), I first checked the power supply. All voltages are present on the backplanes. DC LO and AC LO are at 4.6V and have a ripple of 130 mV. Seems acceptable to me. Next, I placed the two CPU boards in the backplane. Of course in the correct slots :-) and connected the console ribbon cable. Power on... The RUN LED stays on. Alas, it is not the infamous NPG problem. The console is not responsive, although ENABLE/HALT and then START makes DATA/ADRRS LED 0 go on. But that's all. Seems like some fault finding is needed in the CPU and console. I downloaded "DEC-11-H05AA-A-D_1105um.pdf". In the back are some tests that you can do. I hope to find the problem by elimination. Chapter 6.11 describes a few useful checks to verify the console stand alone. Great! All 8 tests check out just fine, but ... the data pattern on the LEDs is "inverted"! The manual says for test numbers 5, 6, 7, and 8 that the LED pattern must be 052525, 031463, 007417, and 0003777 respectively. I got exactly the opposite data: 125252, 146314, 170360, and 177400. Looking at the schematic I could only explain that by a defective 7404 hex inverter, no longer inverting the input signal. But that seemed too weird to be true, and I was not sure whether that would be a correct assumption anyway. Back home I downloaded "EK-KD11B-MM-001_Jan75.pdf" as a preparation to some microstepping/debugging of the CPU. To my surprise, in the back is a chapter 5.11 "Console maintenance". It describes exactly the same tests, but now the LED data is different ... it is what I am seeing! So, I am happy to say that the console is eliminated as a problem source. I guess that the first manual is not for the 11/10 "S" version, although it surprises me that there would be a difference in the console hardware. I dug up 3 double-width extender boards and the KM11 maintenance panels, getting ready to do some microstepping as described in the manual(s). Keeping both manuals side by side! If you have some ideas how to proceed checking the CPU, I'm all ears! greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 13:09:48 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 20:09:48 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some corrections to my post regarding the console LED behavior. Voltage levels on the CPU backplane are still good whne the 2 CPU boards are installed in the backplane, but the processor is not responsive to the switches on the console panel. The RUN LED is on, ADDRESS/DATA are all off. When the HALT/ENABLE switch is in the HALT position and START is toggled ("reset"), the RUN goes off and the ADDRESS/DATA LEDs all go on. LOAD ADDR, EXAM and CONT have no response. When I set HALT/ENABLE switch to ENABLE and toggle START, the RUN LED goes on and DATA/ADDRESS LEDs go off, except LED "0". greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 13:16:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 18:16:02 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Some corrections to my post regarding the console LED behavior. > > Voltage levels on the CPU backplane are still good whne the 2 CPU boards > are installed in the backplane, but the processor is not responsive to > the switches on the console panel. It's been a long time since I've been inside an 11/10 (that will change soon as I fix the one damaged by the idiot removal men,..) but just to eliminate the obvious check that ACLO and DCLO are solidly high. On a system like this I would always start by looking at the microcode program counter. What state(s) is it in? If it is sequencing through states, does the sequence make any sense? Does anything happen when you press LOAD ADDR (say)? Maybe start from one of the switches like LOAD ADDR and see if it is generating the right signals on the processor board. -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 13:49:57 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 20:49:57 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 8:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/10 repair started > Some corrections to my post regarding the console LED behavior. > > Voltage levels on the CPU backplane are still good whne the 2 CPU boards > are installed in the backplane, but the processor is not responsive to > the switches on the console panel. It's been a long time since I've been inside an 11/10 (that will change soon as I fix the one damaged by the idiot removal men,..) but just to eliminate the obvious check that ACLO and DCLO are solidly high. On a system like this I would always start by looking at the microcode program counter. What state(s) is it in? If it is sequencing through states, does the sequence make any sense? Does anything happen when you press LOAD ADDR (say)? Maybe start from one of the switches like LOAD ADDR and see if it is generating the right signals on the processor board. -tony ========= Oops, I forgot to mention a few other checks that I did ... AC LO and DC LO are some 4.6V. Both have a 130 mV ripple, no spikes. That seems OK to me. As the console ribbon cable was disconnected, I also checked the toggle switches (LOAD ADDR, EXAM, START, CONT, DEP) and the switches SW0~SW15 and HALT/EANBLE. In the OFF position the signal is 0.06V and in the ON position I measured voltages between 4.5 and 4.6V. Toggles and switch signals seems OK too. I am fairly confident that the console itself is OK. Thanks for the tip checking the microcode program counter. I hope to get to that next weekend. Also, with the correct module on extenders I will check what toggling LOAD ADDRS does signal-wise. Looking at the console LEDs it does nothing :-/ thanks, - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 14:09:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 19:09:12 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: > > Oops, I forgot to mention a few other checks that I did ... > AC LO and DC LO are some 4.6V. Both have a 130 mV ripple, no spikes. > That seems OK to me. Sure, those sound OK to me too. But you would have felt a right idiot if you had spent days working through the microcode and CPU logic only to find the real cause was something like that. Yes, I've been there, done that... [...] > Thanks for the tip checking the microcode program counter. I hope to > get to that next weekend. Also, with the correct module on extenders > I will check what toggling LOAD ADDRS does signal-wise. Looking at > the console LEDs it does nothing :-/ In general on a microcoded system, assuming a listing of the microcode is available (as here), the microcode program counter a good place to start testing. You should look for several things : Is the microcode running, or is it stuck in a particular address? If the latter, should it be stuck there, perhaps it is waiting for some external input (like a console switch :-)). Try to find some way of giving it that input and see what happens. If the former, is the sequence of states reasonable (does it correspond with something the microcode could ever do, evem if it shouldn't be doing that now). Is it a possible sequence of states for what the machine should be doing (What I mean here is that if the microcode is say fetching something from memory, interpretting it as a particular instruction, doing that, and repeating, then the microcode is doing something that sometimes it should be doing (e.g.. when running a program) even if it shoudn't be doing it when you have halted the machine from the console, whereas if the microcode is jumping through an apparently random set of states then I would suspect the microcode program counter register, the control store ROMs, jump logic, etc. Incidentally, is this an 11/10 or an 11/10S (what are the M-numbers on the CPU boards)? -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 14:26:31 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 21:26:31 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 9:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/10 repair started > > Oops, I forgot to mention a few other checks that I did ... > AC LO and DC LO are some 4.6V. Both have a 130 mV ripple, no spikes. > That seems OK to me. Sure, those sound OK to me too. But you would have felt a right idiot if you had spent days working through the microcode and CPU logic only to find the real cause was something like that. Yes, I've been there, done that... [...] > Thanks for the tip checking the microcode program counter. I hope to > get to that next weekend. Also, with the correct module on extenders > I will check what toggling LOAD ADDRS does signal-wise. Looking at > the console LEDs it does nothing :-/ [... snip good microcode stuff ...] Incidentally, is this an 11/10 or an 11/10S (what are the M-numbers on the CPU boards)? -tony ========= Tony, the microcode is "on the menu" for next weekend ... The system is a 11/10S, CPU is M7260 and M7261. - Henk From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 14:51:24 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 12:51:24 -0700 Subject: Interlisp-D (Medley) "display font" disks for the 1186? In-Reply-To: <5611584F.2050801@bitsavers.org> References: <20151003121859.D64B018C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <57EE59A1-5F85-429A-8586-9B3FBDE0E1DF@gmail.com> <5611584F.2050801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7D4F30D6-1D48-473C-AD25-8FB8E1B523C5@gmail.com> Can and will do Re: FS level backup-- Thanks, Al. I am indeed in Seattle and a MPB board would be massively appreciated, let me know what I should do. I'm a little bit weary of the IOB as well, as someone wrote "BAD" on it. (Actually it came in Josh's machine), but during our testing it appeared to work, and have a closer mfg. date to my machine. I think the person who marked it as such wasn't at the top of their troubleshooting game. If it's total toast Josh will have to trade me back for mine ;) Cheers, - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 4, 2015, at 09:48, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> On 10/3/15 10:53 AM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >> I intend to take an image of the drive using David G's excellent MFM emulator > > File-level is probably adequate. I have dozens of original distribution disk sets for the 1186; Koto, Lyric and Medley. I dug out the Koto and Lyric display font disks this morning, still haven't turned up any for Medley. I don't know if I have full distributions for Medley 1.1 and 1.2 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 14:52:21 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 19:52:21 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: > > > the microcode is "on the menu" for next weekend ... > The system is a 11/10S, CPU is M7260 and M7261. Are you sure that's an 'S'? I thought the 'S' was the M8260/M8261 board set with the links to disable the bus arbiter so it can be used as a slave processor. Anyway, getting back to this... I had forgotten that the 11/10 loads the LED data serially into a shift register on the console board. Is that clock and counter running (on the console board)? Also check round the '150 mux on the data path board, that is the source of the bitstream for the LEDs The switch logic seems to be sheet CONE in my printset (which is actually for the GT40, but it's the same processor). On the control logic board, ROM E100 seems to determine the microcode address for console operations. Start with CONE BUT SWITCHES L, which seems to be an overall enable for this. It starts from the '154 E078 on that board (sheet CONE again). It is controlled by the microcode ROM E105 (sheet CONG). Microcode program counter is E102 and E091 (sheet CONF). Also look at the CPU clock (sheet CONJ). Is it running? If not, look at those gates E013d, etc, that disable it. That's something to be going one with anyway... -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 15:26:44 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:26:44 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 9:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/10 repair started > the microcode is "on the menu" for next weekend ... > The system is a 11/10S, CPU is M7260 and M7261. Are you sure that's an 'S'? I thought the 'S' was the M8260/M8261 board set with the links to disable the bus arbiter so it can be used as a slave processor. Anyway, getting back to this... I had forgotten that the 11/10 loads the LED data serially into a shift register on the console board. Is that clock and counter running (on the console board)? Also check round the '150 mux on the data path board, that is the source of the bitstream for the LEDs The switch logic seems to be sheet CONE in my printset (which is actually for the GT40, but it's the same processor). On the control logic board, ROM E100 seems to determine the microcode address for console operations. Start with CONE BUT SWITCHES L, which seems to be an overall enable for this. It starts from the '154 E078 on that board (sheet CONE again). It is controlled by the microcode ROM E105 (sheet CONG). Microcode program counter is E102 and E091 (sheet CONF). Also look at the CPU clock (sheet CONJ). Is it running? If not, look at those gates E013d, etc, that disable it. That's something to be going one with anyway... -tony ========= Yup, the clock and counter on the console board are running. That's why the console maintenance tests 5 - 8 work, producing the data patterns on the LEDs :-) Thanks for the pointers! I haven't looked at the schematics yet. Yes, it is an 11/10S. AFAIK, the M7260 and M7261 is used in all 11/10 versions, and of course all 11/05 versions. I could be wronge though ... I guess you are confused with the M7265/M7266 (11/34) and M8265/M8266 (11/34A). - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 15:44:49 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 20:44:49 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: > > Yes, it is an 11/10S. How do you define '11/10S' ? > AFAIK, the M7260 and M7261 is used in all 11/10 versions, and > of course all 11/05 versions. I could be wronge though ... The 11/05 and 11/10 are, by now, the same machine ;-). What I mean by that is that essentially the difference was what you got with it when you ordered it, and of course today you are not going to find the machine exactly as DEC would have shipped it. > I guess you are confused with the M7265/M7266 (11/34) and > M8265/M8266 (11/34A). There are at least 2 versions of the 11/10 CPU boards. The later one, which I thought was the 11/10S, has soldered wire links to disable the arbiter (the 'S' meaning it can be a _S_lave processor on another machine's Unibus). I think another link disables the built-in console port. And didn't it use a crystal rather than RC clock for the built-in serial console port? [The sooner I get my bookshelves made so I can find all my printsets the better!] You're right, I was getting confused over the M numbers. The original and later boards seem to have the same numbers. The circuitry is very similar, but the IC references I have given might be wrong. -tony - Henk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 16:04:01 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 23:04:01 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: tony duell Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 10:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11/10 repair started > Yes, it is an 11/10S. How do you define '11/10S' ? > AFAIK, the M7260 and M7261 is used in all 11/10 versions, and > of course all 11/05 versions. I could be wrong though ... The 11/05 and 11/10 are, by now, the same machine ;-). What I mean by that is that essentially the difference was what you got with it when you ordered it, and of course today you are not going to find the machine exactly as DEC would have shipped it. > I guess you are confused with the M7265/M7266 (11/34) and > M8265/M8266 (11/34A). There are at least 2 versions of the 11/10 CPU boards. The later one, which I thought was the 11/10S, has soldered wire links to disable the arbiter (the 'S' meaning it can be a _S_lave processor on another machine's Unibus). I think another link disables the built-in console port. And didn't it use a crystal rather than RC clock for the built-in serial console port? [The sooner I get my bookshelves made so I can find all my printsets the better!] You're right, I was getting confused over the M numbers. The original and later boards seem to have the same numbers. The circuitry is very similar, but the IC references I have given might be wrong. -tony ========= I define 11/10"S" by the backplane. There are 4 different backplanes for the 11/10 and 11/05, according to the doc. I have them on my website, www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html I did not know that there were different versions of the CPU boards, except the Rev.E and Rev.F of the M7261. Good to know! Seeing whether there is an XTAL for the console comms line is easy to spot, but IIRC it is RC on my M7260. - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 4 16:10:13 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 21:10:13 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , Message-ID: > I define 11/10"S" by the backplane. There are 4 different backplanes > for the 11/10 and 11/05, according to the doc. I have them on my website, > www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html RIght... > I did not know that there were different versions of the CPU boards, > except the Rev.E and Rev.F of the M7261. Good to know! > Seeing whether there is an XTAL for the console comms line is easy to > spot, but IIRC it is RC on my M7260. I am working from 2 Printsets, both from Bitsavers. One is the GT40 one (yet another backplane of course, but the same CPU, core memory, etc). That shows the older CPU. The other is the 11/05S schematic, which shows the later boards with the crystal UART clock, the links I ,mentioned, etc. I am sure we will get it sorted out. As I said, the logic is much the same, certainly in the areas we need to look at first. ICs might have different positions, but that shouldn't be too confusing. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 4 16:27:55 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 15:27:55 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561199DB.2070806@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/4/2015 3:04 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > ========= > I define 11/10"S" by the backplane. There are 4 different backplanes > for the 11/10 and 11/05, according to the doc. I have them on my website, > www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html > I did not know that there were different versions of the CPU boards, > except the Rev.E and Rev.F of the M7261. Good to know! > Seeing whether there is an XTAL for the console comms line is easy to > spot, but IIRC it is RC on my M7260. > > - Henk Now did check on what version of magic smoke you got? That may be important too. Is there any way to tell if all the TTL was fried, or just few chips by the wrong pins from the schematics? Ben. Good Luck ... this email will turn into another copy of windows in 9 8 7 ... From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 16:44:04 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 17:44:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <561199DB.2070806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561199DB.2070806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I just yesterday started working on assembling an 11/05 S with a BK11-K backplane. At the moment I am working through the power regulators to make sure everything is right before I install the boards. I am assembling from parts on hand but I do have the correct cards. I have M7260/61 and 8K Core, etc. Just one 9 slot backplane. Nice simple system. Bill On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 5:27 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/4/2015 3:04 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > >> ========= >> I define 11/10"S" by the backplane. There are 4 different backplanes >> for the 11/10 and 11/05, according to the doc. I have them on my website, >> www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html >> I did not know that there were different versions of the CPU boards, >> except the Rev.E and Rev.F of the M7261. Good to know! >> Seeing whether there is an XTAL for the console comms line is easy to >> spot, but IIRC it is RC on my M7260. >> >> - Henk >> > > Now did check on what version of magic smoke you got? > That may be important too. > Is there any way to tell if all the TTL was fried, > or just few chips by the wrong pins from the schematics? > Ben. > Good Luck ... this email will turn into another copy of windows in 9 8 7 > ... > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:49:18 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 17:49:18 -0500 Subject: VCF Berlin Pics Message-ID: Unfortunately I wasn't there but I still bring you photos, taken by Jack Rubin, from this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival Berlin: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFBerlin2015?noredirect=1 I don't have any additional info to go with them, so we'll have to wait for Jack to return to the console and fill us in. In the meantime, enjoy the pics! -j From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:55:44 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 18:55:44 -0400 Subject: VCF Berlin Pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love the analog stuff pictured. Wish I was there too. On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Jason T wrote: > Unfortunately I wasn't there but I still bring you photos, taken by > Jack Rubin, from this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival Berlin: > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFBerlin2015?noredirect=1 > > I don't have any additional info to go with them, so we'll have to > wait for Jack to return to the console and fill us in. In the > meantime, enjoy the pics! > > -j > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Oct 4 18:56:07 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 19:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Berlin Pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 2015, Jason T wrote: > Unfortunately I wasn't there but I still bring you photos, taken by > Jack Rubin, from this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival Berlin: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFBerlin2015?noredirect=1 Way to go the extra (4400) miles, Jack! :-) Lots of analog. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 4 19:09:34 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 20:09:34 -0400 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> On 10/04/2015 01:02 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 07:09:04PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: >> Software preservation is definitely important > > remember that with the latest US laws, that certain data (e.g. hard > drives, magnetic media) *must* be destroyed on the supposition that > they contain sensitive personal data. > > If you don't do so, you can create yourself a legal liability. > > (do NOT ask me about equipment sold by someone in South Austin > who is now out of business, who should have been wiping drives.) > > mcl > Look up the federal HIPAA regulations... You don't want to be the one responsible for losing electronic patient information... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Oct 4 19:27:24 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 02:27:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5611C3EC.9020803@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-04 20:09, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Some corrections to my post regarding the console LED behavior. > > Voltage levels on the CPU backplane are still good whne the 2 CPU boards > are installed in the backplane, but the processor is not responsive to > the switches on the console panel. > > The RUN LED is on, ADDRESS/DATA are all off. When the HALT/ENABLE switch > is in the HALT position and START is toggled ("reset"), the RUN goes off > and the ADDRESS/DATA LEDs all go on. > > LOAD ADDR, EXAM and CONT have no response. > > When I set HALT/ENABLE switch to ENABLE and toggle START, the RUN LED > goes on and DATA/ADDRESS LEDs go off, except LED "0". You mentioned NPR problems before, but I have never seen a broken NPR signal cause any problems at power on. Broken NPR normally cause DMA to not work. However, what you describe sounds exactly how I've seen a lot of machines behave when the terminator is missing. Check for bus continuity, and termination. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 4 21:00:39 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151005020039.C5E3A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > There are at least 2 versions of the 11/10 CPU boards. The later one, > which I thought was the 11/10S, has soldered wire links to disable the > arbiter ... I think another link disables the built-in console port. > And didn't it use a crystal rather than RC clock for the built-in > serial console port? It would be good to know exactly how many there are! I think there are at least three, because: There are two sets of 11/05 (let's not bother with the 05-10 distinction, I think that's just the artwork on the front panel) prints on-line, "1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76": http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105_RevAH_Engineering_Drawings_Jul76.pdf and "1105S_Schem": http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/1105S_Schem.pdf Both of them show the exact same board revs: M7260 Rev C (drawing: date 1-22-73, rev N) M7261 Rec F (drawing: date 9-5-73, rev U) However, I don't think they show the W1 jumper to disable the onboard serial line, etc (I spent quite a while looking for it in these prints, after hearing of its existence :-); and they definitely show an RC circuit, and not a crystal, as the baud rate generator. So, the board set with those features (jumper + crystal) must be a later set than the ones shown in those two on-line sets of prints. (One of which is marked "11/05S", just to be confusing - I didn't check to see if that rev of the cards has a jumper to allow another machine to be bus master.) However, I have a set of hardcopy 11/05 prints, and they show an even earlier state: M7260 Rev B (drawing: date 4-07-72 rev H) M7261 Rev C (drawing: date 3-19-72 rev J) On this rev of the M7260, the UART chip is down near the contact fingers, and 'horizontal', not up near the Berg connector to the console, and 'vertical'. The M7261 is also quite distinct; there's a big gap on the center left of the card (full of traces). Just to thicken the plot a bit more, I have an M7261 that looks like that, and it is marked "M7261E" in the etch! So that's '3 versions' at least of the 11/05: - The latest (jumpers and crystal) - The middle (in the on-line prints) - The early (in the hardcopy prints I have) I say '3' because it's possible there are only early and late versions of each card, and the '3 versions' I listed are actually 3 different mixes of old/new cards. > The original and later boards seem to have the same numbers. Indeed; there's nothing on the handles, etc to indicate that they are totally different boards (except for that "M7261E" in the etch. Any chance you can find a print set that shows the later cards, with the jumpers, crystal, etc? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 4 21:16:11 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151005021611.2465018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > I am working from 2 Printsets, both from Bitsavers. One is the GT40 one > (yet another backplane of course, but the same CPU, core memory, etc). Ah, thanks for that pointer; I'll see if it shows the same board versions as my 'early' hardcopy set. > The other is the 11/05S schematic, which shows the later boards with > the crystal UART clock Say what? The "11/05S schematic" from Bitsavers shows the RC clock; look on page 61, bottom left corner, there's an RC circuit (and a couple of flops) producing an output "DPH TTY CLK (I) H", which is fed into the baud rate divider in the upper left corner. (Ooooh, what an ugly circuit! You have to tweak the trim pot to change from the 110/220/440/880/1760 speed set to the 150/300/600/1200/2400! Ugly!!) Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 4 22:45:19 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 22:45:19 -0500 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5611F24F.9090303@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2015 12:18 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Oct 3, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> No, absolutely not. I know that 4.3-4.7 will not run (properly) on a KA-650. In general, it boots up, but doesn't have a machine check handler that is compatible with the 650 architecture. I ran into that one myself. > That's interesting, my system with a KA-650 ran 4.x originally, I forget the actual version, but I think it was 4.6. Sadly it was on the RD53 that came with the system, and the RD53 cratered before I could get a backup. :-( > > Somebody gave me a KA-650, and I seem to recall I was running 4.7 on my home system. I seem to recall that when I plugged the KA-650 in, it complained about something like the machine check handler did not support the KA-650. Thus was all QUITE a number of years ago, so I could be wrong about the specifics. Anyway, it seemed the choice was to run 5.1 with the 650, and have to deal with the license issues, or just keep running 4.7 with no license on the KA-630, which is what I did. I think VMS 4.7 would let the system manager do stuff on it, but would not let general users log on, with the 650. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 4 22:53:13 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 22:53:13 -0500 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <561070F1.8050708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5611F429.2000504@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2015 08:30 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Oct 3, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> No, absolutely not. I know that 4.3-4.7 will not run (properly) on a KA-650. In general, it boots up, but doesn't have a machine check handler that is compatible with the 650 architecture. I ran into that one myself. >> That's interesting, my system with a KA-650 ran 4.x originally, I forget the actual version, but I think it was 4.6. Sadly it was on the RD53 that came with the system, and the RD53 cratered before I could get a backup. :-( >> >> Zane > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt > > According to that release history version V4.7A in 28-MAR-1988 was a > Limited HW Release for the VAXstation 3200/3500 Mayfair I KA650. > Well, I THOUGHT I was running 4.7 on my home system. Seems that was the last version that didn't require a license. But, maybe I was NOT running 4.7, but some earlier version. But, I would have had 4.7, not 4.7A, so maybe you needed the 4.7A to support the KA650. I dug out some of my notes from the system, and it seems I had VMS 4.7 and VMS 5.5 (which I couldn't run fully as I had no license.) But, my memory of all this is a bit rusty, now. I did have the system running continuously until 2007, but didn't use it much online. It ran an environmental monitoring program in the house, and displayed time, date temp and humidity on a couple LCD displays. In 2007 I moved that program over to a Linux PC, and the VAX hard drive crashed a few weeks later. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 4 22:58:04 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 22:58:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2015 01:09 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Some corrections to my post regarding the console LED > behavior. > > Voltage levels on the CPU backplane are still good whne > the 2 CPU boards > are installed in the backplane, but the processor is not > responsive to > the switches on the console panel. > > The RUN LED is on, ADDRESS/DATA are all off. You have no memory, and probably no devices to complete the Unibus. So, it is quite likely showing the Unibus is in a jammed state. At the least, you need a Unibus terminator, and any bus grant cards between the CPU and the terminator (you'd have to check the manual to see how the Unibus is wired.) Jon From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 4 23:47:57 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 21:47:57 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <561200FD.9070900@jwsss.com> I've been gathering bits and pieces from recent Ebay purchases and would like to see if anyone has a spare 11/03 or 11/23 qbus type box. I've got quite a few cards, and even a backplane block, but the prices on ebay are crazy, and I'd like to check here before doing anything rash. I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade, and I'm not sure if one card will do it. I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up processor card. I also have several serial cards, and some memory. that's as far as I have it, and if someone has something laying around that would let me just run up to a working serial port I would think that would be a good start. I do have a few fully working larger 11's but they are of no use for this exercise, all are unibus, or not compatible with these cards. If the price isn't too shocking I'd like to buy if possible. thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 00:02:33 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 01:02:33 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <561200FD.9070900@jwsss.com> References: <561200FD.9070900@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have some M7940 and other DLVs, and a few boxes. Let me know what all you need. On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:47 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > I've been gathering bits and pieces from recent Ebay purchases and would > like to see if anyone has a spare 11/03 or 11/23 qbus type box. > > I've got quite a few cards, and even a backplane block, but the prices on > ebay are crazy, and I'd like to check here before doing anything rash. > > I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade, and > I'm not sure if one card will do it. > > I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up > processor card. I also have several serial cards, and some memory. > > that's as far as I have it, and if someone has something laying around > that would let me just run up to a working serial port I would think that > would be a good start. > > I do have a few fully working larger 11's but they are of no use for this > exercise, all are unibus, or not compatible with these cards. > > If the price isn't too shocking I'd like to buy if possible. > thanks > Jim > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 00:22:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 05:22:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <20151005021611.2465018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151005021611.2465018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > The other is the 11/05S schematic, which shows the later boards with > > the crystal UART clock > > Say what? The "11/05S schematic" from Bitsavers shows the RC clock; look on > page 61, bottom left corner, there's an RC circuit (and a couple of flops) > producing an output "DPH TTY CLK (I) H", which is fed into the baud rate > divider in the upper left corner. Yes, you're right. I am not sure what I was thinking of last night.... But isn't the switchable divider only present on later boards (the early ones being pretty much 110 baud only)? This printset _does_ show the jumpers I mentioned. Look at page 75 of the .pdf bottom, left-ish. Jumper W1 is described as disabling the internal serial port when fitted. On the next page, just above leftish of centre is W2, documented as installed to make a slave processor. > (Ooooh, what an ugly circuit! You have to tweak the trim pot to change from > the 110/220/440/880/1760 speed set to the 150/300/600/1200/2400! Ugly!!) May be easier than finding the right crystal to change a DL11A-E to the 'other' set of baud rates :-) -tony Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 00:26:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 05:26:02 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> References: , <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > You have no memory, and probably no devices to complete the > Unibus. So, it is quite likely showing the Unibus is in a > jammed state. At the least, you need a Unibus terminator, > and any bus grant cards between the CPU and the terminator > (you'd have to check the manual to see how the Unibus is wired.) The specific issue of an open grant chain locking the Unibus is a quirk of the M9302 terminator (which asserts SACK under such conditions). This is unlikely to be a problem on an 11/10. But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At least fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU boards) if you haven't done so already. -tony From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 5 00:59:53 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 07:59:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ > than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the pcb's in > the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no schematics at the moment :-( > was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current loop, > looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. How is yours > wired? That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR) I think. > I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair > yesterday. Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation once a month... Best regards, Erik. > On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >> >> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >> if your plotter looks like this... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >> >> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik. >> >> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >> your plotter have got three colors? >> >> >> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>> There are two >>> big >>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>> the servos >>> and >>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>> the >>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>> >>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>> may not >>> be >>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>> >>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>> problem on >>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>> unfortunately >>> it is >>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>> if there is >>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>> for >>> safety >>> some years ago... >>> >>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>> >>> >>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >>>> geschrieben: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>> service >>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>> loaded as >>>>> per the user guide. >>>> >>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>> check >>>> and/or >>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>> manufacturers >>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>> >>>> -tony >> > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 5 00:59:53 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 07:59:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ > than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the pcb's in > the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no schematics at the moment :-( > was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current loop, > looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. How is yours > wired? That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR) I think. > I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair > yesterday. Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation once a month... Best regards, Erik. > On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >> >> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >> if your plotter looks like this... >> >> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >> >> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik. >> >> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >> your plotter have got three colors? >> >> >> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>> There are two >>> big >>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>> the servos >>> and >>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>> the >>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>> >>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>> may not >>> be >>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>> >>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>> problem on >>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>> unfortunately >>> it is >>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>> if there is >>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>> for >>> safety >>> some years ago... >>> >>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>> >>> >>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >>>> geschrieben: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>> service >>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>> loaded as >>>>> per the user guide. >>>> >>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>> check >>>> and/or >>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>> manufacturers >>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>> >>>> -tony >> > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 01:12:58 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 23:12:58 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? Message-ID: <000001d0ff34$e2496ef0$a6dc4cd0$@gmail.com> Anyone has the operation and service manual for the 9-track mag tape drive Overland Data OD3201? Similar to a Qualstar, but seems larger-faster-quieter-better. Just succeeded putting it online. This one is unusual in its simplicity - it has both a Pertec and a Parallel Port interface. Once I found the DOS software in a dark corner of the Internet, I connected it to the parallel port of a my vintage DOS machine and it worked straight out of the box. Look Ma, no interface cards needed! Reads and writes fine apparently. But it has the common ailment of servo motor tape drives, it creeps a little bit at rest. So I probably need to adjust a pot somewhere. Would be nice if I could find the service manual, but no luck on Googling it up. Marc From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 01:32:21 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:32:21 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <0644DD21-765C-4C4E-8555-61E51917DE53@VMSSoftware.com> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <0644DD21-765C-4C4E-8555-61E51917DE53@VMSSoftware.com> Message-ID: <20151005063221.GA26304@Update.UU.SE> Thank you Sue. I've been following the development of VSI. I just read the latest roadmap. /P On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 06:24:15PM -0400, Sue Skonetski wrote: > Please note that VMS is now owned by VMS Software Inc (VSI) and VMS is all we do, no hardware, no storage just VMS, USA company. We just released OpenVMS v8.4-1h1 with much more in the pipeline. > > Warm Regards, > Sue > > > On Oct 3, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> Is there a table of VMS versions and hardware that they support. > > > > A ready-to-read table? I do not know of one, but it sounds like a good idea. > > > > I know that 7.3 is > >> the last that supports VAX. But before that, are there limitations to what versions > >> run on which hardware. > > > > Yes. > > > >> For instance, would VAX/VMS 1.0 run on a VAXstation 4000? > > > > No. > > > >> Or would 7.3 run on a 11/730? > > > > I don't think so. > > > > the SPDs will contain the official list of what hardware is supported. > > Disk and memory size are critical to what's in and what is not. > > Additionally, sometimes, you can stretch some of the limits, but it > > would have been unsupported (like me running VMS 6.x on a MicroVax II > > w/RQDX3 and RD54 - the disk was _very_ tight, but the OS itself had no > > specific problems running). > > > > -ethan > > Sue Skonetski > > VP of Customer Advocacy > Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com > Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 > Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations > > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 13:17:36 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 14:17:36 -0400 Subject: COS-310 "BAD DATE" Message-ID: I am fiddling with diskettes on my PDP-8/e. I booted COS-310 V8 and it asked for a date. I tried lots of date combinations, and none were accepted. Is this because I don't have an LTC installed? COS MONITOR V 8.00 DATE? . ERROR IN COMMAND .DA 10/04/74 BAD DATE COS MONITOR V 8.00 DATE? .DA 1/25/72 BAD DATE -- Michael Thompson From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 4 15:01:46 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 15:01:46 -0500 Subject: COS-310 "BAD DATE" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561185AA.9060809@charter.net> I doubt that any PDP-8 family OS checks for licensing of any sort. Back in those days, DEC used the format DD-MMM-YY for dates, so try something like: 04-OCT-78 JRJ On 10/4/2015 1:17 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > I am fiddling with diskettes on my PDP-8/e. I booted COS-310 V8 and it > asked for a date. I tried lots of date combinations, and none were accepted. > > Is this because I don't have an LTC installed? > > COS MONITOR V 8.00 > DATE? > . > ERROR IN COMMAND > .DA 10/04/74 > BAD DATE > > COS MONITOR V 8.00 > DATE? > .DA 1/25/72 > BAD DATE > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 01:54:56 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:54:56 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56106050.7070801@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151005065455.GB26304@Update.UU.SE> Thank you Glen, this was the sort of overview I was looking for. /P On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 04:34:52PM -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > There is this OpenVMS Release History which has some useful > information. It only goes back to V4.0: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt > > Here is a copy of the SPD 25.01.69 for HP OpenVMS Operating System for > Alpha Version 7.3-1 and 7.3-2, and VAX Version 7.3: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/spdalpha731732vax73.pdf > > From the above SPD 25.01.69: > > System Restrictions > > OpenVMS VAX Version 5.1-1 is the final version to support the following systems: > VAX-11/725 > > OpenVMS VAX Version 6.2 is the final version to support the following systems: > VAX-11/730 > VAX-11/750 > VAX-11/751 > VAX-11/780 > VAX-11/782 > VAX-11/785 > VAXft 110 > VAXft 310 > VAXft 410 > VAXft 610 > VAXft 810 > MicroVAX I > VAXstation I > > OpenVMS VAX Version 7.2 is the final version to support the following systems: > MicroVAX II > VAXstation II/GPX > VAXstation II/QVSS > VAXstation 2000 > VAXstation 2000/GPX > VAXstation 2000/MFB > MicroVAX 2000 > > OpenVMS VAX Version 7.3 is the final version to support the following systems: > VAX 8200, VAX 8250, VAXserver 8200, VAXserver 8250 > VAX 8300, VAX 8350, VAXserver 8300, VAXserver 8350 > VAX 8530, VAXserver 8530, VAX 8550, VAXserver 8550 > VAX 8600, VAX 8650, VAXserver 8600, VAXserver 8650 > VAX 8700, VAXserver 8700 > VAX 8800, VAX 8810, VAX 8820, VAX 8830, VAX 8840 > VAXserver 8800, VAXserver 8810, VAXserver 8820, VAXserver 8830, > VAXserver 8840, VAX 8842, VAX 8974, VAX 8978 > VAX 9000, Models 110, 110VP, 210, 210VP, 310, 310VP > VAX 9000, Models 320, 320VP, 330, 330VP, 340, 340VP > VAX 9000, Models 410, 410VP, 420, 420VP, 430, 430VP, 440, 440VP From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 02:04:40 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:04:40 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151005070440.GC26304@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 12:51:28AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > OpenVMS 7.3 was the last release. And with that release, a few early > VAX models were officially not supported. However, I think it should > work, in theory. There is always the question of the machine being > slow enough, or not have enough memory, to maybe cause problems. But > DEC never removed the hardware support code. Interresting, the concensus of this thread seems to be that given enough RAM and disk space VMS 7.3 should run on most, if not all, VAX models. Whether performance would be good is another question. The minimum version needed for a given VAX is another matter. Glen's post gave a pretty good answer though not complete. > > It also came on one TK50, or about 20 RX50 floppies, for installation. > (I have some "fun" memories of installing it from floppies when I > was working at DEC in the mid-80s... Remind me when we meet, and > I'll tell you all about it.) > Will do, didn't know you had worked for DEC. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 02:12:59 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:12:59 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 11:49:28PM -0400, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > So yes, [Open]VMS 7.3 will run on a VAX-11 series VAX. And probably > even on a microVAX as well (though I haven't tried). > The follow up question then is, is there a reason to avoid 7.3 on lower end VAX models, say VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II, both of which I have. I suppose disk space is the most pressing issue. What about memory consumption in a basic install? Or memory usage for options like TCP/IP or DECWindows. Thanks, Pontus From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 5 04:33:19 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:33:19 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-05 07:26, tony duell wrote: >> >> You have no memory, and probably no devices to complete the >> Unibus. So, it is quite likely showing the Unibus is in a >> jammed state. At the least, you need a Unibus terminator, >> and any bus grant cards between the CPU and the terminator >> (you'd have to check the manual to see how the Unibus is wired.) > > The specific issue of an open grant chain locking the Unibus is a quirk > of the M9302 terminator (which asserts SACK under such conditions). This > is unlikely to be a problem on an 11/10. Why? The 11/10 also have a Unibus, and also needs the terminator as well as the SACK and other signals in order. > But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At least > fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU boards) if > you haven't done so already. You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Oct 5 04:21:30 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 10:21:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:12:59 +0200" <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <01PRJSMEJ6YY00A0FI@beyondthepale.ie> On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 at 09:12:59 +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 11:49:28PM -0400, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > So yes, [Open]VMS 7.3 will run on a VAX-11 series VAX. And probably > > even on a microVAX as well (though I haven't tried). > > > > The follow up question then is, is there a reason to avoid 7.3 on lower end VAX > models, say VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II, both of which I have. > > I suppose disk space is the most pressing issue. What about memory consumption in > a basic install? > > Or memory usage for options like TCP/IP or DECWindows. > My preference is to not go higher than V5.5-2 on the smaller graphics equipped machines. This allows the pre-Motif version of DECWindows (I think it is called XUI?) to be used which is much less of a resource hog than Motif. Even on machines without a graphics display, significant amounts of Motif are started up anyway in order to enable remote display and this requires a lot of disk and memory unless it is disabled. There is also the pre-DECWindows windowing software called VWS (VAXstation Workstation Software?) which is even lighter on resources. I haven't looked at this for many years but I suspect the cut off for using it is also at V5.5-2. The lower end VAXstation 3100 machines struggle with Motif. It takes a long time to start and when in use, the response feels sluggish. I can only imagine what it would do to a VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 5 05:18:06 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 12:18:06 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <01PRJSMEJ6YY00A0FI@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <01PRJSMEJ6YY00A0FI@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56124E5E.5030104@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-05 11:21, Peter Coghlan wrote: > On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 at 09:12:59 +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 11:49:28PM -0400, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>> So yes, [Open]VMS 7.3 will run on a VAX-11 series VAX. And probably >>> even on a microVAX as well (though I haven't tried). >>> >> >> The follow up question then is, is there a reason to avoid 7.3 on lower end VAX >> models, say VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II, both of which I have. >> >> I suppose disk space is the most pressing issue. What about memory consumption in >> a basic install? >> >> Or memory usage for options like TCP/IP or DECWindows. >> > > My preference is to not go higher than V5.5-2 on the smaller graphics equipped > machines. This allows the pre-Motif version of DECWindows (I think it is called > XUI?) to be used which is much less of a resource hog than Motif. > > Even on machines without a graphics display, significant amounts of Motif are > started up anyway in order to enable remote display and this requires a lot > of disk and memory unless it is disabled. > > There is also the pre-DECWindows windowing software called VWS (VAXstation > Workstation Software?) which is even lighter on resources. I haven't looked at > this for many years but I suspect the cut off for using it is also at V5.5-2. > > The lower end VAXstation 3100 machines struggle with Motif. It takes a long > time to start and when in use, the response feels sluggish. I can only imagine > what it would do to a VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II. Agreed that graphics, and especially Motif is a hog. However, VMS V5 was in itself problematic in that it really had bad performance. It was significantly slower than V4, and customers complained. So much that DEC explicitly addressed this concern with V6. So, from that perspective, I would avoid V5 if I could... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 06:50:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:50:12 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> , <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > The specific issue of an open grant chain locking the Unibus is a quirk > > of the M9302 terminator (which asserts SACK under such conditions). This > > is unlikely to be a problem on an 11/10. > > Why? The 11/10 also have a Unibus, and also needs the terminator as well > as the SACK and other signals in order. The M9302 includes logic to assert SACK if a grant (any BG or NPG) gets to it, meaning no device on the bus as intercepted the grant. This causes problems with an open grant chain in that the CPU sees the SACK, tries to deassert the grant (which it hasn't asserted in the first place) and the bus is locked with SACK asserted and no grants. The M930 terminator does not include said logic. As a result an open grant chain will cause problems on a machine where the terminator is an M9302. On a machine where it's an M930, an open grant chain is of course a bad idea (interrupts and DMA will not work properly) but it will not lock the bus and prevent the front panel from working. The 11/10 generally uses an M930 terminator. > > But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At least > > fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU boards) if > > you haven't done so already. > > You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. It may not be a perfect electrical match, but if all you have is the CPU backplane, or even a BA11-K full of backplanes, I am certain a terminator at the CPU end only will get the machine doing something, even running programs correctly. Totally ignoring the front panel is not caused by a missing far-end terminator on such a small machine. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 07:58:14 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 07:58:14 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - IDE compatibility (and setup disk image) Message-ID: <561273E6.8080209@gmail.com> My Portable II uses a Miniscribe ST506/412 drive hooked up to a bridge board that I'm told is IDE at the other side, back to the controller. The original drive in my machine is toast - I had to pop the lid to free the spindle. It spins up now, and might cough up some data (for a while), so intention is two-fold: 1) Put the original drive and bridge board into a more modern system to attempt a read, 2) Replace the original drive/bridge combo with a more modern IDE drive (happy to waste 99% of the space on it...) Are there any gotchas involved to either of these, given that IDE was presumably in its infancy when the system was current, and so its possibly a slightly different animal to a more modern version? I don't want to fry the Compaq's controller, or the bridge board. In addition to this, the machine's lost its config, so currently defaults to a floppy boot. Does anyone happen to have an image of the 360K setup floppy, either in Imagedisk or raw format? (LLF is presumably 512 byte sectors, 9 sectors/track, and 40 tracks per side?) cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 5 08:28:18 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:28:18 -0400 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer Message-ID: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, This recent Quora answer contained a little gap - the name of the person who designed the original logo on the case. Quick Googling didn't help. Anyone have the trivia answer? http://qr.ae/RP2GQy Any other PIC/Pixar/Renderman anecdotes welcome. Sounds like a pretty fancy bit of hardware for the time. --Toby From jon at jonworld.com Mon Oct 5 08:39:04 2015 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:39:04 +0200 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer In-Reply-To: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: My guess would be good 'ol John Lasseter. On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > This recent Quora answer contained a little gap - the name of the person > who designed the original logo on the case. > > Quick Googling didn't help. Anyone have the trivia answer? > > http://qr.ae/RP2GQy > > Any other PIC/Pixar/Renderman anecdotes welcome. Sounds like a pretty > fancy bit of hardware for the time. > > --Toby > -- -Jon +32 0 486 260 686 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 5 08:46:27 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151005134627.7911A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> From: Tony Duell >> I am working from 2 Printsets, both from Bitsavers. One is the GT40 one >> (yet another backplane of course, but the same CPU, core memory, etc). > Ah, thanks for that pointer; I'll see if it shows the same board > versions as my 'early' hardcopy set. It does seem to show _basically_ the same as my set; the print revs are slightly different (slightly later), but it does have what I've called the 'early' boards. The differences with mine are minor - e.g. on the M7261, there are two extra capacitors in the prints in the GT40 set. > isn't the switchable divider only present on later boards (the early > ones being pretty much 110 baud only)? Ooh, right you are - another way to tell the early M7260 from later ones. If your memory of a version with a crystal is correct, that does indeed make three versions of that board. Can all -11/05 and -11/10 owners look at their M7260, and see if they have one with a crystal? If so, we can institute a search for the prints of that version. > This printset _does_ show the jumpers I mentioned. Look at page 75 of > the .pdf bottom, left-ish. Jumper W1 is described as disabling the > internal serial port when fitted. Ah, right you are; maybe I am mis-remembering a long search through the 'early' printset for jumper W1? >> You have to tweak the trim pot to change from the 110/220/440/880/1760 >> speed set to the 150/300/600/1200/2400! Ugly!!) > May be easier than finding the right crystal to change a DL11A-E to the > 'other' set of baud rates :-) Well, today that's not so easy (although I did stumble on a pair of the 9600 baud crystals on eBay a while back), but back then, it was a lot easier! > The M9302 includes logic to assert SACK if a grant (any BG or NPG) gets > to it ... This causes problems with an open grant chain in that the CPU > sees the SACK, tries to deassert the grant (which it hasn't asserted in > the first place) and the bus is locked with SACK asserted and no grants. So, how did the M9302 see a 'grant' to start the whole process? Noise on an open input? Or maybe it powers up in that state? >> From: Johnny Billquist >> You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. > It may not be a perfect electrical match, but if all you have is the > CPU backplane .. I am certain a terminator at the CPU end only will get > the machine doing something Yes, I think that in electrical terms it would be very similar to the typical LSI-11, which works fine with termination at one end only. Yes, there will be more noise on the bus due to the un-terminated end, but it will probably still work OK. Noel From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 5 09:03:44 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:03:44 +0200 Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> Hey this is interesting. we have a different controller, indicating that a change from a 1038 to a 1039 involved changing the controller as well. see my pics. https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2015-09-18-138.jpg unfortunately i cannot find a picture of the back of the controller. simon On 05-10-15 07:59, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Simon, > > thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded > them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ > >> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the >> pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. > > Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got > engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, > the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the > schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, > i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no > schematics at the moment :-( > >> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current >> loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. >> How is yours wired? > > That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether > this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of > daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have > been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language > the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it > is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS > and DSR/DTR) I think. > >> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >> yesterday. > > Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's > basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation > once a month... > > Best regards, > > Erik. > >> On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >>> >>> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >>> if your plotter looks like this... >>> >>> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >>> >>> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >>> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >>> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Erik. >>> >>> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >>> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >>> your plotter have got three colors? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>>> There are two >>>> big >>>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>>> the servos >>>> and >>>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>>> the >>>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>>> >>>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>>> may not >>>> be >>>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>>> >>>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>>> problem on >>>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>>> unfortunately >>>> it is >>>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>>> if there is >>>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>>> for >>>> safety >>>> some years ago... >>>> >>>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>>> >>>> >>>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um >>>>> 20:02 >>>>> geschrieben: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>>> service >>>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and >>>>>> test >>>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a >>>>>> second the >>>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>>> loaded as >>>>>> per the user guide. >>>>> >>>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>>> check >>>>> and/or >>>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>>> manufacturers >>>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>> >> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 5 09:03:44 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:03:44 +0200 Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> Hey this is interesting. we have a different controller, indicating that a change from a 1038 to a 1039 involved changing the controller as well. see my pics. https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2015-09-18-138.jpg unfortunately i cannot find a picture of the back of the controller. simon On 05-10-15 07:59, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Simon, > > thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded > them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ > >> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the >> pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. > > Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got > engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, > the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the > schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, > i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no > schematics at the moment :-( > >> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current >> loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. >> How is yours wired? > > That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether > this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of > daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have > been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language > the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it > is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS > and DSR/DTR) I think. > >> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >> yesterday. > > Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's > basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation > once a month... > > Best regards, > > Erik. > >> On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >>> >>> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >>> if your plotter looks like this... >>> >>> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >>> >>> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >>> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >>> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Erik. >>> >>> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >>> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >>> your plotter have got three colors? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>>> There are two >>>> big >>>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>>> the servos >>>> and >>>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>>> the >>>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>>> >>>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>>> may not >>>> be >>>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>>> >>>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>>> problem on >>>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>>> unfortunately >>>> it is >>>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>>> if there is >>>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>>> for >>>> safety >>>> some years ago... >>>> >>>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>>> >>>> >>>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um >>>>> 20:02 >>>>> geschrieben: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>>> service >>>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and >>>>>> test >>>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a >>>>>> second the >>>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>>> loaded as >>>>>> per the user guide. >>>>> >>>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>>> check >>>>> and/or >>>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>>> manufacturers >>>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>> >> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 5 09:09:11 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:09:11 +0200 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: References: <002401d0fda4$c48615d0$4d924170$@gmail.com> <20151003065236.GA12793@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <56128487.6080901@dds.nl> well, we at hack42 are discussing a pertec to usb converter based on a microcontroller. pertec seems straightforward, now how to present the drive to the os... Simon On 03-10-15 10:20, Mike Ross wrote: > Question: will this kind of hookup work with a USB-SCSI converter? If > so, are there any specific brands and models known to work? I'm > interested in both SE & differential, 50 pin & 68 pin. > > Or does it need a traditional Adaptec or similar card? > > Preferably under Linux; Windows possible but deprecated. > > Mike > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 7:52 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 02, 2015 at 11:28:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >>> Thanks for your STP2T02.exe SCSI tape to SIMH program. Ran like a champ >>> under Win98 DOS, first time. It's the only utility that did work out of the >>> box to read a tape from my SCSI-1 HP 88780 9-track into a SIMH file, out of >>> the 5 or so I tried. Before I jump to Linux, which seems to be the more >>> straightforward option, does anyone have the reverse tool to write a SIMH >>> image file on a 9 Track tape under Windows/DOS? None of the utilities I >>> found using Windows Tape APIs could deal with my tape SCSI-1 early >>> interface, they all expect some basic (SCSI-2?) functions that are not >>> implemented. >> >> My "ST.EXE" program (available from http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ >> including source) runs on real DOS (not Windows) and can write from an >> E11-format .TAP file (which SIMH uses a garbled version of, but they're >> interchangeable for *even* record lengths which are 99% of the universe) >> to a real tape. It works on my HP 88780, and my Qualstar 1260S and even >> a DEC TZ30 or TK50Z-GA (which aren't quite full SCSI-1). Not picky at all. >> "st wput foo.tap" should write your image out. You need a DOS ASPI driver >> for your SCSI card, and you'll need to use something like "-f scsi5:" on >> the command line (or set the TAPE environment variable) so ST will know >> which SCSI ID (etc.) to use. >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit > > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 09:31:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:31:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <20151005134627.7911A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151005134627.7911A18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > isn't the switchable divider only present on later boards (the early > > ones being pretty much 110 baud only)? > > Ooh, right you are - another way to tell the early M7260 from later ones. If Yes, it is a pity that the later board set (a) has the jumper to disable the built-in console port and (b) has the switchable divider allowing higher baud rates so you generally don't need to :-) The older board set with the fixed 110 baud port you can't trivially disable can be a pain in that respect. > your memory of a version with a crystal is correct, that does indeed make I am probably mis-remembering it. Heck, it's been almost 20 years since I was inside an 11/10 (!). I probably saw the divider and switch and assumed it was a crystal clock like on a DL11. [...] > > May be easier than finding the right crystal to change a DL11A-E to the > > 'other' set of baud rates :-) > > Well, today that's not so easy (although I did stumble on a pair of the 9600 > baud crystals on eBay a while back), but back then, it was a lot easier! Unfortunately time machines to go back then are also not easy to find :-) Adjusting the RC clock is not hard given a frequency counter, and it doesn't have to be that precise. There are (or is it were) companies who will grind special crystals for you but it is not cheap and not that fast. > > The M9302 includes logic to assert SACK if a grant (any BG or NPG) gets > > to it ... This causes problems with an open grant chain in that the CPU > > sees the SACK, tries to deassert the grant (which it hasn't asserted in > > the first place) and the bus is locked with SACK asserted and no grants. > > So, how did the M9302 see a 'grant' to start the whole process? Noise on an > open input? Or maybe it powers up in that state? The grants are the only (I think) unibus signals to be active high. So if the grant chain is open at any point, the next device along (which might be the terminator) will have a grant input which is pulled high by the pull-up resistor. An device not asserting a bus request will pass on any grants it receives (it can't know the grant is bogus) so in the end one (or more) of the grant inputs to that M9302 terminator will be high -- that is asserted. The logic on the M9302 is purely combinatorial, there is no internal 'state', In normal operation a grant should never get that far -- a grant is asserted by the processor (actually the arbiter which is generally part of the processor logic) when it receives a bus request (or NPR, as appropriate). That request had to come from some device on the unibus, when that device gets the grant signal it will handle SACK and also will not pass the grant on to subsequent devices (that is how the priority of devices on the Unibus is set up). So obviously there is no way the grant should get all the way to the terminator. But in some cases (I think a device deasserting the request before it gets the grant is one) the grant can get all the way along the bus. I am not sure why that was deemed to be a problem on later machines and not older ones (which run quite happily with the M930 terminator at each end of the bus) but anyway... -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 5 09:41:56 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <20151005144156.1F7EC18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim S > I suspect I also need an additional card at minimum for my escapade, > and I'm not sure if one card will do it. > I've got pretty much one of every 2 size processor and the 11/03 4 up > processor card. I also have several serial cards, and some memory. Then you should have all you need to run a minimal system; CPU, memory and a serial interface for the console. (In fact, it's possible to run _very_ short programs with only an 11/23 or /73 CPU card, a serial interface card, and no memory - put the program in the PAR's! :-) > if someone has something laying around that would let me just run up to > a working serial port Do you mean, a cable? If so, I can hook you up there (not the most robust, mind, as my supply of pins/shells are cheapo knock-offs, but functional). What kind of serial card(s) do you have (some take the LSI-11 serial 'standard' 10-pin Berg connector shell, the early ones use the DL11 compatible 40-pin shell), and what's going to be on the non-PDP-11 end - a PC of some sort? Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 5 09:53:24 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:53:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-05 13:50, tony duell wrote: >>> The specific issue of an open grant chain locking the Unibus is a quirk >>> of the M9302 terminator (which asserts SACK under such conditions). This >>> is unlikely to be a problem on an 11/10. >> >> Why? The 11/10 also have a Unibus, and also needs the terminator as well >> as the SACK and other signals in order. > > The M9302 includes logic to assert SACK if a grant (any BG or NPG) gets to it, > meaning no device on the bus as intercepted the grant. This causes problems > with an open grant chain in that the CPU sees the SACK, tries to deassert > the grant (which it hasn't asserted in the first place) and the bus is locked with > SACK asserted and no grants. The M930 terminator does not include said logic. > > As a result an open grant chain will cause problems on a machine where the > terminator is an M9302. On a machine where it's an M930, an open grant chain > is of course a bad idea (interrupts and DMA will not work properly) but it will not > lock the bus and prevent the front panel from working. > > The 11/10 generally uses an M930 terminator. Right. However, the SACK signal exists, even on the 11/10. And if that signal is floating, or non-working, you can still have problems. So, termination is still important. The additional feature of of the M9302 is just to catch if BG signals are sent out when noone was actually requesting an interrupt. So your comment about open grant chain locking is relevant, but do not negate the claim that you need to make sure you have terminators in place, and that signals are carried through the whole backplane. Note that my original comment was not about BG/BR continuity as such, but termination and signals running through the whole bus. BG/BR is just one part of that. >>> But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At least >>> fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU boards) if >>> you haven't done so already. >> >> You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. > > It may not be a perfect electrical match, but if all you have is the CPU backplane, > or even a BA11-K full of backplanes, I am certain a terminator at the CPU end only > will get the machine doing something, even running programs correctly. Totally > ignoring the front panel is not caused by a missing far-end terminator on such a > small machine. The 11/10 do not have a built-in terminator at the CPU end. You are supposed to have two M930 on the backplane. Johnny From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 5 10:02:32 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 11:02:32 -0400 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer In-Reply-To: References: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <56129108.5080608@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-05 9:39 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > My guess would be good 'ol John Lasseter. > The answer did include the extra info that it was a stone carver. I don't see that in Lasseter's bio. --Toby > On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> This recent Quora answer contained a little gap - the name of the person >> who designed the original logo on the case. >> >> Quick Googling didn't help. Anyone have the trivia answer? >> >> http://qr.ae/RP2GQy >> >> Any other PIC/Pixar/Renderman anecdotes welcome. Sounds like a pretty >> fancy bit of hardware for the time. >> >> --Toby >> > > > From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 5 10:00:12 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:00:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, thanks for your email and the link to the pictures - you indeed have a more modern version of the controller. Maybe, yours is the later OPC907 and not the 906 I have got. Anyhow the plugs look quite similar, so it probably is a drop in repelacelemt... My controller understands a subset ot the PCI/907 commands, but this did nor hurt me as I am only using the very basic pen up / pen down and goto commands. The pictures are all I currently have got (at least until my next visit at my parent's basement ;-)) I think first step is to make the keypads work and than to look into the controller of the plotter... Best regards, Erik. On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, simon wrote: > Hey this is interesting. we have a different controller, indicating that a > change from a 1038 to a 1039 involved changing the controller as well. > > see my pics. > https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2015-09-18-138.jpg > > unfortunately i cannot find a picture of the back of the controller. > > simon > > On 05-10-15 07:59, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Hi Simon, >> >> thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded >> them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: >> >> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ >> >>> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the >>> pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. >> >> Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got >> engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, >> the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the >> schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, >> i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no >> schematics at the moment :-( >> >>> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current >>> loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. >>> How is yours wired? >> >> That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether >> this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of >> daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have >> been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language >> the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it >> is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS >> and DSR/DTR) I think. >> >>> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >>> yesterday. >> >> Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's >> basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation >> once a month... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik. >> From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 5 10:00:12 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:00:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, thanks for your email and the link to the pictures - you indeed have a more modern version of the controller. Maybe, yours is the later OPC907 and not the 906 I have got. Anyhow the plugs look quite similar, so it probably is a drop in repelacelemt... My controller understands a subset ot the PCI/907 commands, but this did nor hurt me as I am only using the very basic pen up / pen down and goto commands. The pictures are all I currently have got (at least until my next visit at my parent's basement ;-)) I think first step is to make the keypads work and than to look into the controller of the plotter... Best regards, Erik. On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, simon wrote: > Hey this is interesting. we have a different controller, indicating that a > change from a 1038 to a 1039 involved changing the controller as well. > > see my pics. > https://hack42.nl/gallery/v/Museum/2015-09-18-138.jpg > > unfortunately i cannot find a picture of the back of the controller. > > simon > > On 05-10-15 07:59, Erik Baigar wrote: >> Hi Simon, >> >> thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded >> them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: >> >> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ >> >>> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the >>> pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. >> >> Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got >> engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, >> the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the >> schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, >> i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no >> schematics at the moment :-( >> >>> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current >>> loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. >>> How is yours wired? >> >> That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether >> this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of >> daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have >> been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language >> the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it >> is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS >> and DSR/DTR) I think. >> >>> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >>> yesterday. >> >> Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's >> basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation >> once a month... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik. >> From ben at bensinclair.com Mon Oct 5 10:10:52 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:10:52 -0500 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer In-Reply-To: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Are any Pixar Image Computers in the hands of collectors? I would love to have one of those, even if it didn't do anything! On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > This recent Quora answer contained a little gap - the name of the person who > designed the original logo on the case. > > Quick Googling didn't help. Anyone have the trivia answer? > > http://qr.ae/RP2GQy > > Any other PIC/Pixar/Renderman anecdotes welcome. Sounds like a pretty fancy > bit of hardware for the time. > > --Toby -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Oct 5 10:14:09 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> <56128340.9050504@dds.nl> Message-ID: Guys: Please don't CC to both cctalk and cctech. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Oct 5 10:19:42 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:19:42 -0700 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer In-Reply-To: References: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <01d201d0ff81$435eba50$ca1c2ef0$@net> > Are any Pixar Image Computers in the hands of collectors? I would love > to have one of those, even if it didn't do anything! Probably - I remember at least two being listed on eBay over the past five to six years. They were being offered at ridiculous prices so not sure if anyone bough them but they are out there. -Ali From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:24:37 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:24:37 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 4:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 repair started On 2015-10-05 13:50, tony duell wrote: > The 11/10 generally uses an M930 terminator. Right. However, the SACK signal exists, even on the 11/10. And if that signal is floating, or non-working, you can still have problems. So, termination is still important. The additional feature of of the M9302 is just to catch if BG signals are sent out when noone was actually requesting an interrupt. So your comment about open grant chain locking is relevant, but do not negate the claim that you need to make sure you have terminators in place, and that signals are carried through the whole backplane. Note that my original comment was not about BG/BR continuity as such, but termination and signals running through the whole bus. BG/BR is just one part of that. >>> But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At least >>> fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU boards) >>> if >>> you haven't done so already. >> >> You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. > > It may not be a perfect electrical match, but if all you have is the CPU > backplane, > or even a BA11-K full of backplanes, I am certain a terminator at the CPU > end only > will get the machine doing something, even running programs correctly. > Totally > ignoring the front panel is not caused by a missing far-end terminator on > such a > small machine. The 11/10 do not have a built-in terminator at the CPU end. You are supposed to have two M930 on the backplane. Johnny ========= Sorry for the delayed answer, I don't have email available at work -:/ I have one M930 in slot 3 position A-B, because that is the termination for the processor. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I also have an M930 in slot 9 position A-B. To be complete, this is the current state. slot 1 A-F : M7260 slot 2 A-F : M7261 slot 3 A-B : M930 C-D : G7273 slot 4 A-B : M9970 C-D : G7273 slot 5 C-D : G7273 slot 6 empty slot 7 empty slot 8 empty slot 9 A-B : M930 Slot 6-7-8-9 is for core memory, respectively G235, H217D, G114, M8293. The documentation says that a G727 should go in slot 3-4-5 position D. I hate those "knuckle-busters". Plus, I am lazy to check NPR continuity on the backplane, so I installed G7273s instead of G727s. Always good. I totally forgot that the GT40 is based on the 11/05. Great tip in case it turns out that I have a "different" CPU module! You never know ... When I got the 11/10, all boards were in their correct location, so after the goof up of wrong placement, somebody more knowledgeable placed the boards in their correct slots. I guess he hoped to see a working system. So I do not know which board was place where :-/ That makes guessing what might be damaged a bit tricky, although in/outs that go to fingers of the board are first candidate for inspection. A visual check did not reveal anything abviously blown or burnt. @Bill : keep us posted of your progress :-) @Johnny : I do not think an NPR problem exists, unless it is there, because of damaged hardware. @Jon : After I checked the correct levels of all power suplly voltages, I also tried the system with slot 6-7-8-9 filled with the core memory. Behavior did not change. Again, I am pretty sure NPR is not the problem. @Noell : thanks for mentioning the possible versions! Good to keep in mind! As Tony says, the M930 terminator close to the CPU (slot 3) should be enough, especially as all other slots that matter are empty. But I am pretty sure that for 100% correctness I also have one M930 in slot 9. Thanks for all support, I hope to continue on Saturday ... - Henk From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 5 10:44:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:44:42 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-05 17:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 4:53 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 repair started > > On 2015-10-05 13:50, tony duell wrote: >> The 11/10 generally uses an M930 terminator. > > Right. However, the SACK signal exists, even on the 11/10. > And if that signal is floating, or non-working, you can still have > problems. So, termination is still important. > The additional feature of of the M9302 is just to catch if BG signals > are sent out when noone was actually requesting an interrupt. > > So your comment about open grant chain locking is relevant, but do not > negate the claim that you need to make sure you have terminators in > place, and that signals are carried through the whole backplane. > > Note that my original comment was not about BG/BR continuity as such, > but termination and signals running through the whole bus. BG/BR is just > one part of that. > >>>> But you do need some kind of termination/pullups on the Unibus. At >>>> least >>>> fit the CPU-end terminator (M930 in the right slot near the CPU >>>> boards) if >>>> you haven't done so already. >>> >>> You most likely want to terminate the other end as well. >> >> It may not be a perfect electrical match, but if all you have is the >> CPU backplane, >> or even a BA11-K full of backplanes, I am certain a terminator at the >> CPU end only >> will get the machine doing something, even running programs correctly. >> Totally >> ignoring the front panel is not caused by a missing far-end terminator >> on such a >> small machine. > > The 11/10 do not have a built-in terminator at the CPU end. You are > supposed to have two M930 on the backplane. > > Johnny > > ========= > Sorry for the delayed answer, I don't have email available at work -:/ > > I have one M930 in slot 3 position A-B, because that is the termination > for the processor. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I also have an M930 > in slot 9 position A-B. To be complete, this is the current state. > slot 1 A-F : M7260 > slot 2 A-F : M7261 > slot 3 A-B : M930 C-D : G7273 > slot 4 A-B : M9970 C-D : G7273 > slot 5 C-D : G7273 > slot 6 empty > slot 7 empty > slot 8 empty > slot 9 A-B : M930 > > Slot 6-7-8-9 is for core memory, respectively G235, H217D, G114, M8293. > The documentation says that a G727 should go in slot 3-4-5 position D. > I hate those "knuckle-busters". Plus, I am lazy to check NPR continuity > on the backplane, so I installed G7273s instead of G727s. Always good. > > I totally forgot that the GT40 is based on the 11/05. Great tip in case > it turns out that I have a "different" CPU module! You never know ... > > When I got the 11/10, all boards were in their correct location, so after > the goof up of wrong placement, somebody more knowledgeable placed the > boards in their correct slots. I guess he hoped to see a working system. > So I do not know which board was place where :-/ That makes guessing > what might be damaged a bit tricky, although in/outs that go to fingers > of the board are first candidate for inspection. A visual check did not > reveal anything abviously blown or burnt. > > @Bill : keep us posted of your progress :-) > @Johnny : I do not think an NPR problem exists, unless it is there, > because of damaged hardware. > @Jon : After I checked the correct levels of all power suplly voltages, > I also tried the system with slot 6-7-8-9 filled with the core memory. > Behavior did not change. Again, I am pretty sure NPR is not the problem. > @Noell : thanks for mentioning the possible versions! Good to keep in > mind! > > As Tony says, the M930 terminator close to the CPU (slot 3) should be > enough, especially as all other slots that matter are empty. But I am > pretty sure that for 100% correctness I also have one M930 in slot 9. > > Thanks for all support, I hope to continue on Saturday ... > - Henk Ok. I got the initial impression that you only had the CPU in. Thanks for the expanded info. When you don't have any core memory, I wonder if you might need bus grants in those slots as well...? It's not as if they aren't a part of the Unibus... Memory sits on the Unibus, just like everything else, remember? Needs to check further if any special wiring are in place for those slots, though. Johnny From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:49:45 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:49:45 +0100 Subject: Dead PET4032 Message-ID: Hi folks, Some storage reorganisation last week uncovered a PET4032 I'd forgotten I had. Spotless internally (I remembered why later) and glass fuse intact so I attempted powerup. Nothing. No screen and no chirrup. Google + schematics time. I've checked AC voltage at the iron lump and all major chips + DRAM are getting the right voltages. The processor is generating a clock signal at PHI2 (~2.7V), I've checked continuity of all address and data lines for ROMs/processor/VIA/PIA. I can't check the contents of the Kernal ROM since it's not socketed and my track record of successfully removing big chips whole isn't good. One chip that does get hot is the Character Generator at UA3 which I was going to swap with the one in my other 4032, but that doesn't power up either. Presumably I can borrow one from a 3032 or 8096? A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called a PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester and other working PETs as sources of chips I can borrow. Are there any more steps I can try before checking ROM contents becomes necessary? Cheers. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 10:48:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:48:55 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> , <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > When you don't have any core memory, I wonder if you might need bus > grants in those slots as well...? It's not as if they aren't a part of > the Unibus... Memory sits on the Unibus, just like everything else, > remember? Needs to check further if any special wiring are in place for > those slots, though. The core memory slots are specially wired (that's why the 8K and 16K backplanes are different, one is wired for one set of core, the other for 2 sets, with SPCs in the remaining slots). You do NOT put grant cards in there. In any case, an open grant chain will not cause problems at this stage of the 11/10. If you left out all the grant continuity cards the machine would still respond to the console switches, let you load addresses, etc. So let's get that working first -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:56:59 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:56:59 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 5:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 repair started Ok. I got the initial impression that you only had the CPU in. Thanks for the expanded info. When you don't have any core memory, I wonder if you might need bus grants in those slots as well...? It's not as if they aren't a part of the Unibus... Memory sits on the Unibus, just like everything else, remember? Needs to check further if any special wiring are in place for those slots, though. Johnny ========= I am not sure the "core slots" would need grant cards. The documentation is clear about slot 3-4-5 as SPC, needing grant cards. I never saw any doc where the core memory slots, when optional, but not installed, could be used as an SPC slot. I certainly am Not "trying" that ... I did try the system *with* the core slots filled with the correct boards but the behavior remained the same. To make fault finding not more complex, I removed the core board set. Thanks, - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 10:55:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:55:08 +0000 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > One chip that does get hot is the Character Generator at UA3 which I was > going to swap with the one in my other 4032, but that doesn't power up > either. Presumably I can borrow one from a 3032 or 8096? A machine with a dead character generator ROM (unless it is so dead as to pull a power supply line down) will still initialise. You would get the warble. And I would be surprised if you got nothing on the screen either. Odd bit rot would mean the wrong patterns for some characters. But still something. This is presumably a large-screen machine with a 6845 on the mainboard. Is it initialising that (look at the vertical and horizontal sync outputs with your logic probe, are they toggling)? Is it accessing the kernal ROM? Is the CS/ pin pulsing low? What about the RAS/ and CAS/ signals on the DRAMs? > A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called a > PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester and other working PETs as > sources of chips I can borrow. I assume the logic tester is a simple logic probe and not a logic analyser, alas -tony From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Oct 5 10:56:36 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:56:36 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS Message-ID: <010301d0ff86$6b5138d0$41f3aa70$@yahoo.com> Hello. Just wondering if any one has any experience setting up an ETOS system on a PDP-8? I've got most of it working, including adding a second terminal, but can't for the life of me figure out the process on making a second drive available to the users once we are in ETOS timesharing. According to the system managers manual, it's a combination of Lookup and assign. Cheers, Joe From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 5 11:01:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 18:01:34 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56129EDE.6090806@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-05 17:56, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, > October 05, 2015 5:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: > PDP-11/10 repair started > Ok. I got the initial impression that you only had the CPU in. Thanks > for the expanded info. > > When you don't have any core memory, I wonder if you might need bus > grants in those slots as well...? It's not as if they aren't a part of > the Unibus... Memory sits on the Unibus, just like everything else, > remember? Needs to check further if any special wiring are in place for > those slots, though. > > Johnny > > ========= > > I am not sure the "core slots" would need grant cards. The documentation > is clear about slot 3-4-5 as SPC, needing grant cards. I never saw any > doc where the core memory slots, when optional, but not installed, could > be used as an SPC slot. I certainly am Not "trying" that ... > I did try the system *with* the core slots filled with the correct boards > but the behavior remained the same. > To make fault finding not more complex, I removed the core board set. Ok. Not sure if it makes it more complex or not, but I guess it's not the issue right now anyway. But my original comment about the behavior you described being very much like what I've seen on other machines with bad/no termination still applies. CPU seemingly stuck, but doing a master reset sortof gets it out. But not functioning as it should. Well, no more ideas here at the moment. Johnny From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 11:27:30 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:27:30 +0100 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tony, The screen's not connected, nor keyboard. I figured there was no point until I got a chirrup. My logic tester is a cheapo Micronta, yes. There's an unpopulated ROM socket at UD11 so I can easily get +5 and GND from there for probing, I'll do that tonight. A On 5 October 2015 at 16:55, tony duell wrote: > > > > One chip that does get hot is the Character Generator at UA3 which I was > > going to swap with the one in my other 4032, but that doesn't power up > > either. Presumably I can borrow one from a 3032 or 8096? > > A machine with a dead character generator ROM (unless it is so dead as to > pull a power supply line down) will still initialise. You would get the > warble. > > And I would be surprised if you got nothing on the screen either. Odd bit > rot would mean the wrong patterns for some characters. But still something. > > This is presumably a large-screen machine with a 6845 on the mainboard. > Is it initialising that (look at the vertical and horizontal sync outputs > with your > logic probe, are they toggling)? > > Is it accessing the kernal ROM? Is the CS/ pin pulsing low? > > What about the RAS/ and CAS/ signals on the DRAMs? > > > A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called a > > PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester and other working PETs as > > sources of chips I can borrow. > > I assume the logic tester is a simple logic probe and not a logic > analyser, alas > > -tony > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 11:39:14 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:39:14 +0000 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > The screen's not connected, nor keyboard. I figured there was no point > until I got a chirrup. Well, if the piezo buzzer has failed.... But I guess that's not very likely. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 12:02:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:02:53 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: <000001d0ff34$e2496ef0$a6dc4cd0$@gmail.com> References: <000001d0ff34$e2496ef0$a6dc4cd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5612AD3D.9080106@sydex.com> On 10/04/2015 11:12 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Anyone has the operation and service manual for the 9-track mag tape > drive Overland Data OD3201? Similar to a Qualstar, but seems > larger-faster-quieter-better. Just succeeded putting it online. This > one is unusual in its simplicity - it has both a Pertec and a > Parallel Port interface. Once I found the DOS software in a dark > corner of the Internet, I connected it to the parallel port of a my > vintage DOS machine and it worked straight out of the box. Look Ma, > no interface cards needed! > > Reads and writes fine apparently. But it has the common ailment of > servo motor tape drives, it creeps a little bit at rest. So I > probably need to adjust a pot somewhere. Would be nice if I could > find the service manual, but no luck on Googling it up. I've got a bunch of files that are Overland 32xx-related, but I don't know if they'll be useful. I don't recall where I got them off the web, but I'll be happy to forward them along. Probably close to 75MB worth. I don't care much for the Overland desktop drives, due to the chassis being constructed largely of plastic. Watch out for the foam in the lid too--it degrades with age and then develops air leaks and suddenly, you can't load a tape. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 12:40:40 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:40:40 -0400 Subject: Dead PET4032 References: Message-ID: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Dead PET4032 > Hi Tony, > > The screen's not connected, nor keyboard. I > figured there was no point > until I got a chirrup. > > My logic tester is a cheapo Micronta, yes. > There's an unpopulated ROM > socket at UD11 so I can easily get +5 and GND > from there for probing, I'll > do that tonight. > > A Is UD11 the only empty socket? If there's a chip in UD12 I'd remove it in case it's defective or has bent pins etc.; it'll be an option ROM of some sort. Tony's right about the CG; it's not directly connected to the data & address busses so it's not likely to hang the system unless it's pulling down Vcc. I would connect the monitor though instead of just relying on the buzzer for signs of life; if there's any display at all it might give a useful clue. I'd also check UD7 for poor contact or bent pins Finally, I'd ask on the Vintage Computer Forum; even without me (;-) there are some very knowledgable PET folks there. Good luck! m > > On 5 October 2015 at 16:55, tony duell > wrote: > >> > >> > One chip that does get hot is the Character >> > Generator at UA3 which I was >> > going to swap with the one in my other 4032, >> > but that doesn't power up >> > either. Presumably I can borrow one from a >> > 3032 or 8096? >> >> A machine with a dead character generator ROM >> (unless it is so dead as to >> pull a power supply line down) will still >> initialise. You would get the >> warble. >> >> And I would be surprised if you got nothing on >> the screen either. Odd bit >> rot would mean the wrong patterns for some >> characters. But still something. >> >> This is presumably a large-screen machine with >> a 6845 on the mainboard. >> Is it initialising that (look at the vertical >> and horizontal sync outputs >> with your >> logic probe, are they toggling)? >> >> Is it accessing the kernal ROM? Is the CS/ pin >> pulsing low? >> >> What about the RAS/ and CAS/ signals on the >> DRAMs? >> >> > A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback >> > 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called a >> > PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester >> > and other working PETs as >> > sources of chips I can borrow. >> >> I assume the logic tester is a simple logic >> probe and not a logic >> analyser, alas >> >> -tony >> > > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home > computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 13:17:28 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:17:28 -0700 Subject: Phishing spam? Fwd: Scheduled Maintenance & Upgrade In-Reply-To: <0fb08378-26a8-4d71-9dad-51484e9422ee@MAIL.cassne.org> References: <0fb08378-26a8-4d71-9dad-51484e9422ee@MAIL.cassne.org> Message-ID: <5612BEB8.5000304@sydex.com> Admin: I take it that this is phishing spam. Just not used to seeing it on cctalk. --Chuck -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Scheduled Maintenance & Upgrade Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 01:56:57 +0800 From: Help Desk Reply-To: help.desk.team015 at tech-center.com Help Desk Scheduled Maintenance & Upgrade Your account is in the process of being upgraded to a newest Windows-based servers and an enhanced online email interface inline with internet infrastructure Maintenance. The new servers will provide better anti-spam and anti-virus functions, along with IMAP Support for mobile devices to enhance your usage. To ensure that your account is not disrupted but active during and after this upgrade, you are required to kindly confirm your account by stating the details below: * Domain\user name: * Password: This will prompt the upgrade of your account. Failure to acknowledge the receipt of this notification, might result to a temporary deactivation of your account from our database. Your account shall remain active upon your confirmation of your login details. During this maintenance window, there may be periods of interruption to email services. This will include sending and receiving email in Outlook, on webmail, and on mobile devices. Also, if you leave your Mailbox open during the maintenance period, you may be prompted to close and reopen. We appreciate your patience as this maintenance is performed and we do apologize for any inconveniences caused. Sincerely, Customer Care Team (c) Copyright 2015, All Rights Reserved. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 13:52:08 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2> References: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2> Message-ID: Look for inconsistencies in voltages and pulses to and from RAM. You may need RAM at the lowest memory locations to boot. Hooking up the keyboard at least to eliminate a missing keyboard as a reason the system does not boot, and you can issue commands to search a disk drive even if the display is faulty. At least if you have a IEEE drive attached you can watch for the the drive to respond when the 4032 is powered on, for signs of life from the computer. On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" < > binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 12:27 PM > Subject: Re: Dead PET4032 > > > Hi Tony, >> >> The screen's not connected, nor keyboard. I figured there was no point >> until I got a chirrup. >> >> My logic tester is a cheapo Micronta, yes. There's an unpopulated ROM >> socket at UD11 so I can easily get +5 and GND from there for probing, I'll >> do that tonight. >> >> A >> > > Is UD11 the only empty socket? If there's a chip in UD12 I'd remove it in > case it's defective or has bent pins etc.; it'll be an option ROM of some > sort. > > Tony's right about the CG; it's not directly connected to the data & > address busses so it's not likely to hang the system unless it's pulling > down Vcc. I would connect the monitor though instead of just relying on the > buzzer for signs of life; if there's any display at all it might give a > useful clue. > > I'd also check UD7 for poor contact or bent pins > > Finally, I'd ask on the Vintage Computer Forum; even without me (;-) there > are some very knowledgable PET folks there. > > Good luck! > > m > > > >> On 5 October 2015 at 16:55, tony duell wrote: >> >> > >>> > One chip that does get hot is the Character > Generator at UA3 which I >>> was >>> > going to swap with the one in my other 4032, > but that doesn't power >>> up >>> > either. Presumably I can borrow one from a > 3032 or 8096? >>> >>> A machine with a dead character generator ROM (unless it is so dead as to >>> pull a power supply line down) will still initialise. You would get the >>> warble. >>> >>> And I would be surprised if you got nothing on the screen either. Odd bit >>> rot would mean the wrong patterns for some characters. But still >>> something. >>> >>> This is presumably a large-screen machine with a 6845 on the mainboard. >>> Is it initialising that (look at the vertical and horizontal sync outputs >>> with your >>> logic probe, are they toggling)? >>> >>> Is it accessing the kernal ROM? Is the CS/ pin pulsing low? >>> >>> What about the RAS/ and CAS/ signals on the DRAMs? >>> >>> > A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback > 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called >>> a >>> > PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester > and other working PETs >>> as >>> > sources of chips I can borrow. >>> >>> I assume the logic tester is a simple logic probe and not a logic >>> analyser, alas >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk >> > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 13:52:40 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 18:52:40 +0000 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2>, Message-ID: > Look for inconsistencies in voltages and pulses to and from RAM. You may > need RAM at the lowest memory locations to boot. Hooking up the keyboard > at least to eliminate a missing keyboard as a reason the system does not The PET keyboard is just a matrix of switches, if nothing it pressed it tests as an open-circuit between all pins. So the machine can't fail to start up because the keyboard is not connected. -tony From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 5 09:52:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:52:15 -0400 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I ran OpenVMS V7.2 on a MicroVAX II (KA630) back when I was in high school and it ran quite happily albeit very slowly with 16 MB RAM (and a SCSI disk). Just text mode but I was able to use layered products like TCP/IP or some of the compilers. I've also run OpenVMS V7.2 on VAXstation 3100/30s _with_ DECwindows on GPX graphics ... again very slow but runs pretty happily with the full complement of 24 MB RAM in the machine. I no longer have any VAXstation 2000s but I'd expect they'd do almost as well as the KA630 ... being bounded by simply that, I don't think you can put as much memory in the VAXstation 2000, as in the MicroVAX II. I find OpenVMS runs very well just via netboot using MOP out of a VAXcluster ... I wouldn't even bother to try to install OpenVMS on the local MFM disk in a 2000; just go boot one out of your cluster and see how it feels - I think you'll find not as bad as you had originally thought! :O Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 11:49:28PM -0400, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > So yes, [Open]VMS 7.3 will run on a VAX-11 series VAX. And probably > > even on a microVAX as well (though I haven't tried). > > > > The follow up question then is, is there a reason to avoid 7.3 on lower > end VAX > models, say VAXstation 2000 or MicroVAX-II, both of which I have. > > I suppose disk space is the most pressing issue. What about memory > consumption in > a basic install? > > Or memory usage for options like TCP/IP or DECWindows. > > Thanks, > Pontus > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 5 10:19:48 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:19:48 -0400 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer In-Reply-To: References: <56127AF2.5040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: RICM apparently has one... there's a few pics on the page. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pixar-image-computer Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Are any Pixar Image Computers in the hands of collectors? I would love > to have one of those, even if it didn't do anything! > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:28 AM, Toby Thain > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This recent Quora answer contained a little gap - the name of the person > who > > designed the original logo on the case. > > > > Quick Googling didn't help. Anyone have the trivia answer? > > > > http://qr.ae/RP2GQy > > > > Any other PIC/Pixar/Renderman anecdotes welcome. Sounds like a pretty > fancy > > bit of hardware for the time. > > > > --Toby > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 13:59:07 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:59:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <56129EDE.6090806@update.uu.se> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> <56129EDE.6090806@update.uu.se> Message-ID: What are the DC LO and AC LO values off the backplane? Do they change when you insert the CPU card. (one at a time). On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-05 17:56, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, >> October 05, 2015 5:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: >> PDP-11/10 repair started >> Ok. I got the initial impression that you only had the CPU in. Thanks >> for the expanded info. >> >> When you don't have any core memory, I wonder if you might need bus >> grants in those slots as well...? It's not as if they aren't a part of >> the Unibus... Memory sits on the Unibus, just like everything else, >> remember? Needs to check further if any special wiring are in place for >> those slots, though. >> >> Johnny >> >> ========= >> >> I am not sure the "core slots" would need grant cards. The documentation >> is clear about slot 3-4-5 as SPC, needing grant cards. I never saw any >> doc where the core memory slots, when optional, but not installed, could >> be used as an SPC slot. I certainly am Not "trying" that ... >> I did try the system *with* the core slots filled with the correct boards >> but the behavior remained the same. >> To make fault finding not more complex, I removed the core board set. >> > > Ok. Not sure if it makes it more complex or not, but I guess it's not the > issue right now anyway. > > But my original comment about the behavior you described being very much > like what I've seen on other machines with bad/no termination still > applies. CPU seemingly stuck, but doing a master reset sortof gets it out. > But not functioning as it should. > > Well, no more ideas here at the moment. > > Johnny > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 14:07:47 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 21:07:47 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 10:52:15AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: > you'll find not as bad as you had originally thought! :O :) Thank you, I'll see when I get there. I'm curious about the old window managers though, the pre X11 stuff. So I'll probably try a few different versions. /P From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 5 14:19:55 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:19:55 -0400 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> > On Oct 5, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 10:52:15AM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: >> you'll find not as bad as you had originally thought! :O > > :) > > Thank you, I'll see when I get there. I'm curious about the old window > managers though, the pre X11 stuff. So I'll probably try a few different > versions. You mean VWS? From what I remember, X11 is, amazingly enough, a fair amount faster as well as functionally way superior. paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 5 14:26:33 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 20:26:33 +0100 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2> Message-ID: > Is UD11 the only empty socket? If there's a chip > in UD12 I'd remove it in case it's defective or > has bent pins etc.; it'll be an option ROM of some > sort. Done, I'll see if my programmer can read it once my only working windows box stops updating itself, sheesh. > Vcc. I would connect the monitor though instead of > just relying on the buzzer for signs of life; if > there's any display at all it might give a useful > clue. Hm. Nothing at all from the monitor and checking the voltage at 10 + 11 on the iron lump shows nothing - I didn't check them over the weekend as they only run the monitor and the other pins seemed ok at 18 and 8VAC. > I'd also check UD7 for poor contact or bent pins Had that out earlier and it seems ok. > Finally, I'd ask on the Vintage Computer Forum; > even without me (;-) there are some very > knowledgable PET folks there. OK :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 5 14:29:08 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 21:29:08 +0200 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151005192908.GF17511@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 03:19:55PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > You mean VWS? From what I remember, X11 is, amazingly enough, a fair > amount faster as well as functionally way superior. > Yes VWS, I don't always play with classic computers for their performance and superiority ;-) /P From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 5 14:30:52 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 20:30:52 +0100 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 05/10/2015 19:52, "william degnan" wrote: > Look for inconsistencies in voltages and pulses to and from RAM. You may > need RAM at the lowest memory locations to boot. Hooking up the keyboard > at least to eliminate a missing keyboard as a reason the system does not > boot, and you can issue commands to search a disk drive even if the display > is faulty. At least if you have a IEEE drive attached you can watch for > the the drive to respond when the 4032 is powered on, for signs of life > from the computer. I can try that, though there may be similar bitrot in my drives since they've not been powered up for 10+ years... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 5 15:02:16 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:02:16 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> <56129EDE.6090806@update.uu.se> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 8:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 repair started What are the DC LO and AC LO values off the backplane? Do they change when you insert the CPU card. (one at a time). -- Bill vintagecomputer.net ========= I measured AC LO and DC LO with a scope while both CPU boards are in the backplane. Both measured 4.6 V, there was a ripple of 130 mV (looked like a sawtooth signal). I did not see spikes. - Henk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 15:05:23 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:05:23 -0400 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: <94BEF3C0C3814A81904E9FE438FB59C6@310e2> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 2:52 PM, william degnan wrote: > Look for inconsistencies in voltages and pulses to and from RAM. Yep. > You may need RAM at the lowest memory locations to boot. Absolutely. The startup routines will be unhappy if zeropage is not there. You can check for -5V as well, since the 4116 DRAMs need that. There's a small circuit on the board with a 7905 to produce that. > Hooking up the keyboard > at least to eliminate a missing keyboard as a reason the system does not > boot Nope. As Tony Duell mentioned, it's a passive matrix. The system will not notice a missing keyboard. > and you can issue commands to search a disk drive even if the display > is faulty. You can issue disk commands headless, but if you don't get the piezo "twiddle", you probably aren't getting through POST to a READY prompt anyway. You _could_ be at a TIM prompt, I've seen that for some flavors of broken PETs. The video works, but something is bad in RAM or ROM to screw up BASIC initialization. > At least if you have a IEEE drive attached you can watch for > the the drive to respond when the 4032 is powered on, for signs of life > from the computer. The machine does not autoboot. The only signal that can affect the disk drive is RESET, and that doesn't require the IEEE signals to be initialized in software. If you can get power to the video, you can pull the Chargen ROM and you'll just see blanks for regular chars and solid blocks for inverse video - like the cursor. With the older models with TTL video circuits, they would display chars if the ICs in the video section were working even if the CPU wasn't, but the 4032 has a 6545 CRTC which is initialized by the ROMs. On a machine that mostly worked but with dead video, I'd expect to see strobing on the keyboard matrix every 1/60th of a second, and lots of RAM and ROM enable strobing constantly. One of the old hardware debugging tools was to take a real 6502 and bend out the data pins and run wires from them to power and ground to "spell out" $EA, for NOP (like this guy did... http://www.grappendorf.net/projects/6502-home-computer/the-microprocessor). Then back in its socket, the 6502 would run up the address bus and you could watch the accesses flood over the address space, looking for stuck select/enable bits I have replaced dead 2114s (video SRAM), dead RAM (4116 DRAM and 6550 SRAM) and every once in a while, a dead ROM. That's where I'd poke around first, depending on what symptoms match what you are seeing. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 15:23:23 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 16:23:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <56129AEA.6030401@update.uu.se> <56129EDE.6090806@update.uu.se> Message-ID: good news as far as power supply goes. On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Monday, > October 05, 2015 8:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 repair started > What are the DC LO and AC LO values off the backplane? Do they change when > you insert the CPU card. (one at a time). > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net > > ========= > I measured AC LO and DC LO with a scope while both CPU boards are in > the backplane. Both measured 4.6 V, there was a ripple of 130 mV > (looked like a sawtooth signal). I did not see spikes. > > - Henk > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 5 15:40:35 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 20:40:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VCF Berlin Pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1548245922.905792.1444077635950.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Are you on reddit/r/retrobattlestations? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason T To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2015 6:49 PM Subject: VCF Berlin Pics Unfortunately I wasn't there but I still bring you photos, taken by Jack Rubin, from this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival Berlin: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/VCFBerlin2015?noredirect=1 I don't have any additional info to go with them, so we'll have to wait for Jack to return to the console and fill us in. In the meantime, enjoy the pics! -j From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 5 15:55:50 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:55:50 -0700 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: One chip getting hot does bother me. Have you measured the voltage rails. If the voltage is gone, it may be shorted. Just swapping it out may not be a good idea unless you know that it wasn't a failed regulator that caused it to short out. Some of the TO-3 type regulators depend on the screws connecting the case to ground. I have seen case that corrosion caused by dissimilar metals has caused the case to float, causing over voltage and damage to the circuit. I don't know that that is the case of a PET ( don't know what they use for regulators ). Voltage checks are always a first. Dwight From isking at uw.edu Mon Oct 5 17:30:10 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:30:10 -0700 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <20151005192908.GF17511@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> <20151005192908.GF17511@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: ISTR having run 7.2 briefly on an 11/785 (to troubleshoot an install problem with 6.2), and while I didn't do much with it, it did come up and run. And I've used 7.2 quite a bit on 3100-series machines with minimal RAM. Granted, I didn't try to do anything resource-intensive, but I did run the machines over serial. -- Ian On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 03:19:55PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > You mean VWS? From what I remember, X11 is, amazingly enough, a fair > > amount faster as well as functionally way superior. > > > > Yes VWS, I don't always play with classic computers for their > performance and superiority ;-) > > /P > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 18:52:46 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 19:52:46 -0400 Subject: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:10:52 -0500 > From: Ben Sinclair > Subject: Re: Trivia Question: Pixar Image Computer > > Are any Pixar Image Computers in the hands of collectors? I would love > to have one of those, even if it didn't do anything! > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > The RICM has two: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pixar-image-computer -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 19:52:56 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 20:52:56 -0400 Subject: COS-310 "BAD DATE" Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 15:01:46 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > Subject: Re: COS-310 "BAD DATE" > > I doubt that any PDP-8 family OS checks for licensing of any sort. > > Back in those days, DEC used the format DD-MMM-YY for dates, so try > something like: > > 04-OCT-78 > > JRJ > Thanks Jay, that worked! It is different syntax from the COS 300/310 manual that I have. Time to find a different COS manual. -- Michael Thompson From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 5 20:17:15 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 20:17:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5613211B.6000903@cimmeri.com> On 10/5/2015 10:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > ========= > Sorry for the delayed answer, I don't > have email available at work -:/ > > I have one M930 in slot 3 position > A-B, because that is the termination > for the processor. I am pretty sure > (not 100%) that I also have an M930 > in slot 9 position A-B. To be > complete, this is the current state. > slot 1 A-F : M7260 > slot 2 A-F : M7261 > slot 3 A-B : M930 C-D : G7273 > slot 4 A-B : M9970 C-D : G7273 > slot 5 C-D : G7273 > slot 6 empty > slot 7 empty > slot 8 empty > slot 9 A-B : M930 > > Slot 6-7-8-9 is for core memory, > respectively G235, H217D, G114, M8293. > The documentation says that a G727 > should go in slot 3-4-5 position D. > I hate those "knuckle-busters". Plus, > I am lazy to check NPR continuity > on the backplane, so I installed > G7273s instead of G727s. Always good. > > I totally forgot that the GT40 is > based on the 11/05. Great tip in case > it turns out that I have a "different" > CPU module! You never know ... Henk, I'm confused by your slot arrangement, but maybe my 11/05 is different than yours. My module utilization is as follows, and is an 8k backplane (the 16k backplane is also different): slot 9 A-F : M7260 slot 8 A-F : M7261 slot 7 A-F : G110 Slot 6 A-F :G231 Slot 5 AB : M930 C-F : H214 Slot 4 AB : blank C-F G727 in D4. Slot 3 AB : M930 C-F G727 in D3 Slot 2 AB: KM11 Maint C-F G727 in D2 Slot 1 AB: DF11 Comm C-F G727 in D1 --------John From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 5 21:35:09 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 21:35:09 -0500 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5613335D.6050509@pico-systems.com> On 10/05/2015 09:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > I ran OpenVMS V7.2 on a MicroVAX II (KA630) back when I was in high school > and it ran quite happily albeit very slowly with 16 MB RAM (and a SCSI > disk). Just text mode but I was able to use layered products like TCP/IP or > some of the compilers. > > I set up my home MicroVAX in 1986 with just the 1 MB of memory on the CPU card, an Andromeda MFM + floppy disk controller and the console serial port. As time and money permitted, I kept adding stuff to it (VCB-01 and then a VCB-02, mag tapes, SCSI tapes, ESDI disks, then SCSI disks, DHV11 and so on.) I ran it until 2007, although I moved all new software development to other systems after the mid 90's. Jon From dave at 661.org Tue Oct 6 00:40:14 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 05:40:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Spare Time Gizmos Life game LED tool Message-ID: I've acquired an unpopulated board for a Spare Time Gizmos Life game. Does anyone here who've made one still have an LED tool you don't need that you can pass along. How about a design file for making one myself? I tried asking this on the Spare Time Gizmos list and nobody replied. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 04:47:54 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 05:47:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <5613211B.6000903@cimmeri.com> References: <5611F54C.8040105@pico-systems.com> <561243DF.6080907@update.uu.se> <56128EE4.60101@update.uu.se> <5613211B.6000903@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: My 11/05 S's have the names of the cards printed on the chassis wall. The cards and their slots are listed in the 11/05 S docs. I have always referred to these unambiguous sources. As long as you have the matching mounting box for the version of model S of course. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 5, 2015 9:17 PM, "js at cimmeri.com" wrote: > > > On 10/5/2015 10:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> >> ========= >> Sorry for the delayed answer, I don't have email available at work -:/ >> >> I have one M930 in slot 3 position A-B, because that is the termination >> for the processor. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I also have an M930 >> in slot 9 position A-B. To be complete, this is the current state. >> slot 1 A-F : M7260 >> slot 2 A-F : M7261 >> slot 3 A-B : M930 C-D : G7273 >> slot 4 A-B : M9970 C-D : G7273 >> slot 5 C-D : G7273 >> slot 6 empty >> slot 7 empty >> slot 8 empty >> slot 9 A-B : M930 >> >> Slot 6-7-8-9 is for core memory, respectively G235, H217D, G114, M8293. >> The documentation says that a G727 should go in slot 3-4-5 position D. >> I hate those "knuckle-busters". Plus, I am lazy to check NPR continuity >> on the backplane, so I installed G7273s instead of G727s. Always good. >> >> I totally forgot that the GT40 is based on the 11/05. Great tip in case >> it turns out that I have a "different" CPU module! You never know ... >> > > > Henk, I'm confused by your slot arrangement, but maybe my 11/05 is > different than yours. > > My module utilization is as follows, and is an 8k backplane (the 16k > backplane is also different): > > slot 9 A-F : M7260 > slot 8 A-F : M7261 > slot 7 A-F : G110 > Slot 6 A-F :G231 > Slot 5 AB : M930 C-F : H214 > Slot 4 AB : blank C-F G727 in D4. > Slot 3 AB : M930 C-F G727 in D3 > Slot 2 AB: KM11 Maint C-F G727 in D2 > Slot 1 AB: DF11 Comm C-F G727 in D1 > > --------John > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 6 11:04:38 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151006160438.958F418C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Yes, it is a pity that the later board set (a) has the jumper to > disable the built-in console port and (b) has the switchable divider > allowing higher baud rates so you generally don't need to :-) Well, except for those of us who don't have any 20mA gear, and want to standardize on EIA... :-) > Adjusting the RC clock is not hard given a frequency counter, and it > doesn't have to be that precise. The prints actually give the time for the pulse width on the two different speed groups, so a well-calibrated 'scope should do it. >> So, how did the M9302 see a 'grant' to start the whole process? Noise >> on an open input? Or maybe it powers up in that state? > The grants are the only (I think) unibus signals to be active high. Yup. A source of great confusion to me when I started working with the QBUS, where they are asserted _low_! I'd done a couple of DMA network interfaces on the UNIBUS, and so was totally familiar with how it worked, and when I recently switched to QBUS (I had used LSI-11's extensively BITD, but not done any hardware on them), that (and a few other similar quirks) really threw me until I got a grip on them! > So if the grant chain is open at any point, the next device along > (which might be the terminator) will have a grant input which is pulled > high by the pull-up resistor. Not always! Some devices (e.g. KW11-P) do have a pull-up, but others (e.g. DL11) only have a pull-down. I looked through a couple of UNIBUS handbooks, to see if there was a spec for how to terminate a grant line, and there isn't, which probably explains the variance in practice. But any which do have a pull-up will generate a bogus 'grant' when there's a break in the grant line between them and their upstream. But my theory of noise on an open input may not apply (unless there are devices with _neither_ pull-up not pull-down - I'l too lazy to exhaustively look at UNIBUS device prints ;-). > when that device gets the grant signal it will handle SACK and also > will not pass the grant on to subsequent devices ... So obviously there > is no way the grant should get all the way to the terminator. But in > some cases (I think a device deasserting the request before it gets the > grant is one) the grant can get all the way along the bus. Exactly. Device is requesting interrupt, but is e.g. reset at the same time the CPU grants the interrupt - result, unwanted grant. > I am not sure why that was deemed to be a problem on later machines and > not older ones (which run quite happily with the M930 terminator at > each end of the bus) I think the deal is that an un-wanted grant can cause things to come to a halt until a 'grant timeout' (the '75 Peripherals Handbook says this is 5-10 usec) happens, so the M9302 speeds that up. Interestingly, I think the M9302 was a _later_ solution to this problem in the 11/34. In the early ones, there's a 'SACK Timeout Module' (M8264) which I think performs the same function, but at the _start_ of the bus. (I say 'think' because this module is poorly documented - e.g. I don't know of anything which definitely states which slot to plug it into.) Noel From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 6 11:31:17 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:31:17 -0500 Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> Those look like the normal narrow slides DEC typically used (not the narrow ones that pivot used on a PDP-11/20 or the big wide ones used on later PDP-11 mounting boxes). I don't have any exactly like that available. I do have some that are the same size, and might work, but the detent is different. The detent is a little lever that catches on a pin. On the slide pairs I have available to spare, one side has a shorter slide insert than the other - and it is possible only one side has the detent. If you think you might be interested, drop me a line, and I will pop out to my storage unit and take some photos. JRJ On 9/29/2015 7:46 PM, Charles wrote: > Thinking I had an easy solution to the missing outer slide, I ordered a > $40 pair of new heavy-duty rack slides from eBay. Beautiful pieces and > ball-bearing slides, decent quality hardware too. Only had to drill a > couple of holes in them so they'd match the drive chassis, mounted > everything up, and then discovered that they were 1/4" too narrow, no > matter how I arranged the brackets, and the drive wouldn't slide between > the rack rails. Crap! > > So I bought two 24" pieces of 2 x 2 x 1/8" angle iron at the local steel > place for a whopping $1.40, drilled four holes in each, sanded off the > scale/surface rust, bolted them to the rack and slid the drive right in. > You can't even see the "homemade" part unless you're really looking, > too. Should've done that to start with. If I ever need to service the > drive, I'll just slide it back out and set it on the bench... > > http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/DrCharlesMorris/media/PDP-8/P09-29-15_19.00_zpscspxbfyi.jpg.html > > http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/DrCharlesMorris/media/PDP-8/P09-29-15_19.001_zpsoyzjubaz.jpg.html > > > However, if anyone should stumble over a set of stock RX sliding rails > I'd be interested for the sake of originality ;) > Jay, let me know exactly what measurements you would need. There's a > pretty good view of the inside rail on the second pic. > > thanks > Charles > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 11:33:22 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:33:22 +0200 Subject: Swedish Election Vigil 1968, 1976 and 1982 Message-ID: I just found these on SVT ?ppet Arkiv (Open Archive). Aside from the fact that they are fascinating time documents (cloths, haircuts, way of speaking), these are a little bit of interest to this community. I guess that since computers were not very commonplace at that time, SVT really liked to emphasize how modern they were to actually use computers. In the 1968 they show a guy that explains that the terminal is connected to a (IBM) 360/40 computer. Later on the actual machine is shown. Apparently they replaced IBM by DEC in 1976 since they are showing off two PDP-11/40 this time. And in 1982 they put the machines almost on the scene. http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2260421/valvakan-1968 http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2432414/valvakan-1976 http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2243834/valvakan-1982 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 11:35:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 16:35:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <20151006160438.958F418C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151006160438.958F418C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > Yes, it is a pity that the later board set (a) has the jumper to > > disable the built-in console port and (b) has the switchable divider > > allowing higher baud rates so you generally don't need to :-) > > Well, except for those of us who don't have any 20mA gear, and want to > standardize on EIA... :-) Converting between genuine 20mA loop and RS232 is not that hard. Converting between a DEC current loop port (where you can make assumptions about the voltage swing and which side will be driven, etc), is even easier. Or if you don't mind modifying the hardware you can pick up TTL level signals at the UART. I can't rememebr if DEC routed those to the BERG pins on the 11/10. Maybe not. From a quick glance at the GT40 prints (older version CPU without the disabling link) it appears that the needed signals are at least brought out to backplane pins, but I have not checked any further > > Adjusting the RC clock is not hard given a frequency counter, and it > > doesn't have to be that precise. > > The prints actually give the time for the pulse width on the two different > speed groups, so a well-calibrated 'scope should do it. Indeed. It is not that difficult. Heck, the first serial interface I ever made (to drive a 110 baud 'Teletype' [1] used a 555 as a clock. I think I set it by tweaking it one way until I got bit errors, then tweaking it the other way until I got bit errors, then setting it midway between, Still works... [1] A Data Dynamics 390, which uses ASR33 mechanics with Data Dynamics electronics (in place of the Teletype Call Control Unit). I remember a single-step facility for the reader and a few more goodies like that. > > The grants are the only (I think) unibus signals to be active high. > > Yup. A source of great confusion to me when I started working with the QBUS, > where they are asserted _low_! Now that I had forgotten. How evil.... > Interestingly, I think the M9302 was a _later_ solution to this problem in > the 11/34. In the early ones, there's a 'SACK Timeout Module' (M8264) which I > think performs the same function, but at the _start_ of the bus. (I say > 'think' because this module is poorly documented - e.g. I don't know of > anything which definitely states which slot to plug it into.) I have one of those somewhere.... I remember a 4 bit counter and LEDs, possibly to count errant grants, but it's been a long time since I looked at those prints too. I always assumed it went in the last SPC slot, but I am not sure. -tony From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 11:39:25 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 09:39:25 -0700 Subject: Swedish Election Vigil 1968, 1976 and 1982 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I just found these on SVT ?ppet Arkiv (Open Archive). > > Aside from the fact that they are fascinating time documents (cloths, > haircuts, way of speaking), these are a little bit of interest to this > community. I guess that since computers were not very commonplace at that > time, SVT really liked to emphasize how modern they were to actually use > computers. > > In the 1968 they show a guy that explains that the terminal is connected to > a (IBM) 360/40 computer. Later on the actual machine is shown. > > Apparently they replaced IBM by DEC in 1976 since they are showing off two > PDP-11/40 this time. > > And in 1982 they put the machines almost on the scene. > > http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2260421/valvakan-1968 > > http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2432414/valvakan-1976 > > http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2243834/valvakan-1982 > [Google translate]: "The setup program can only be seen if you are in Sweden" -- Charles From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 6 11:46:19 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:46:19 -0400 Subject: Swedish Election Vigil 1968, 1976 and 1982 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 6, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> I just found these on SVT ?ppet Arkiv (Open Archive). >> ... >> Apparently they replaced IBM by DEC in 1976 since they are showing off two >> PDP-11/40 this time. >> >> And in 1982 they put the machines almost on the scene. >> >> http://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/2260421/valvakan-1968 >> ... > > [Google translate]: > "The setup program can only be seen if you are in Sweden" Oh, one of those dumb things. There are proxy services that can be used to get around that, if you want. hidemyass.com is one I have used to get around those silly geography checks in the past; I assume there are others. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 6 11:54:03 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151006165403.1D2D218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > Converting between genuine 20mA loop and RS232 is not that hard. Yes, but I'm i) lazy, and ii) overwhelmed with other projects! :-) >> there's a 'SACK Timeout Module' (M8264) which I think performs the >> same function, but at the _start_ of the bus. (I say 'think' because >> this module is poorly documented - e.g. I don't know of anything which >> definitely states which slot to plug it into.) > I remember a 4 bit counter and LEDs, possibly to count errant grants Yeah, that LED counter looks like a nice feature; I should find one, play with it. > I always assumed it went in the last SPC slot Well, looking at the print (it's in the 11/34 Vol. 2 set that's online), it looks like it should work plugged in anywhere; the circuit just seems to look for any BGn/NPG that's been on 'too long', and when it sees one, asserts SACK. More complicated than the M9302 circuit, which depends on being last, plus they could cram that onto the terminator, is probably why they switched to the M9302 approach. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 6 12:00:10 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:00:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides In-Reply-To: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> References: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> Message-ID: <5613FE1A.4090105@bitsavers.org> On 10/6/15 9:31 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Those look like the normal narrow slides DEC typically used DEC used Chassis-Trak slides, still made by General Devices, and are not difficult to find. http://www.ebay.com/itm/221719800397 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:04:45 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:04:45 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started In-Reply-To: <20151006165403.1D2D218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151006165403.1D2D218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > Converting between genuine 20mA loop and RS232 is not that hard. > > Yes, but I'm i) lazy, and ii) overwhelmed with other projects! :-) True, but sometimes (and I have been guilty of this) it takes longer to post and moan about the problem than to dig into the junk box, grab the soldering iron, and fix it. [SACK timeout board] > Well, looking at the print (it's in the 11/34 Vol. 2 set that's online), it > looks like it should work plugged in anywhere; the circuit just seems to look > for any BGn/NPG that's been on 'too long', and when it sees one, asserts > SACK. I can't be bothered to download the prints for just that one board (see above ;-)) But if it behaves as you describe, it would appear that if placed at the remote end of the bus it could lock the bus by forcing SACK/ asserted (as the M9302 does) if a grant chain is open, whereas if it is placed at the CPU end it can't. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 12:34:30 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:34:30 +0200 Subject: Swedish Election Vigil 1968, 1976 and 1982 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tisdag 6 oktober 2015 skrev Charles Anthony : > > > [Google translate]: > "The setup program can only be seen if you are in Sweden" > > Oops! I didn't know that they used that kind of geograpical lookup on this old content. I think you could use some kind of proxy to circumvent it. > -- Charles > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 13:05:49 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 11:05:49 -0700 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: This is more sad to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 10/04/2015 01:02 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 07:09:04PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: >> >>> Software preservation is definitely important >>> >> >> remember that with the latest US laws, that certain data (e.g. hard >> drives, magnetic media) *must* be destroyed on the supposition that >> they contain sensitive personal data. >> >> If you don't do so, you can create yourself a legal liability. >> >> (do NOT ask me about equipment sold by someone in South Austin >> who is now out of business, who should have been wiping drives.) >> >> mcl >> >> Look up the federal HIPAA regulations... You don't want to be the > one responsible for losing electronic patient information... > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 07:26:03 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:26:03 -0400 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" Message-ID: What is the purpose of this controller? It came with a PDP 11/05 system: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-05/dec_r-k_abbr_bootPC_Board-a_front.jpg Printed on the controller is R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board 609395 Rev B 802000 Rev I searched around, found nothing specific Is this a bootstrap board for an RK drive? -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 6 08:51:33 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 09:51:33 -0400 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A923FF2-3C7C-4010-AB5C-551A1AAF61A1@comcast.net> > On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:26 AM, william degnan wrote: > > What is the purpose of this controller? It came with a PDP 11/05 system: > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-05/dec_r-k_abbr_bootPC_Board-a_front.jpg > > Printed on the controller is > R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board 609395 Rev B > 802000 Rev > > I searched around, found nothing specific Is this a bootstrap board for an > RK drive? No idea. It certainly isn't a board built by DEC. You might see if it responds to addresses at typical boot loader locations and read out the content. paul From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 11:18:57 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:18:57 +0200 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 2:26 PM To: cctech Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" What is the purpose of this controller? It came with a PDP 11/05 system: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-05/dec_r-k_abbr_bootPC_Board-a_front.jpg Printed on the controller is R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board 609395 Rev B 802000 Rev I searched around, found nothing specific Is this a bootstrap board for an RK drive? -- Bill vintagecomputer.net ========= I am clueless too, but if you want to play Sherlock Holmes, it should be possible to figure it out. 20 ICs, several will be familiar in use in circuitr for the bus. I'd first check whether it is intended for UNIBUS (likely) or QBUS. Given the IC types you can estimate the circuit complexity. If there are lots of simple gates it is just a puzzle. The board has good quality machined pins, so after making pictures and a drawing the location of each IC, you could pull them and trace every pin, visually and with an Ohm meter. Lots of work, not difficult, but very time consuming ... Good for the dark evenings :-) - Henk From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Oct 6 13:14:24 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:14:24 -0500 Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides In-Reply-To: <5613FE1A.4090105@bitsavers.org> References: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> <5613FE1A.4090105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I actually need some slides for my RL02... Are these the same type? I have no rack/slide hardware for it at all, and just have it mounted on a homemade sliding shelf for now. I'd love to have it mounted properly! On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/6/15 9:31 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> Those look like the normal narrow slides DEC typically used > > > DEC used Chassis-Trak slides, still made by General Devices, and are not > difficult to find. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221719800397 > > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 6 13:28:28 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 11:28:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides In-Reply-To: References: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> <5613FE1A.4090105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <561412CC.8050407@bitsavers.org> On 10/6/15 11:14 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I actually need some slides for my RL02... Are these the same type? Nope. DIGITAL designed their own chassis slides after the 11/34 11/44, RLxx and everything after were custom. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Oct 6 13:54:09 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:54:09 +0000 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <20151004073251.GA32349@dbit.dbit.com> References: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> <20151004073251.GA32349@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5BE2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: John Wilson Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 12:33 AM > On Sat, Oct 03, 2015 at 09:49:49PM -0700, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> Your program worked beautifully writing a SIMH format file on my HP 88780 >> tape! > The difference is that SIMH's native format pads records to even sizes before > appending the "length" longword, and E11's doesn't. But most popular tape > labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no > difference. Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly octets as their native data representation. :-> Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wilson at dbit.com Tue Oct 6 14:10:43 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:10:43 -0400 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5BE2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> <20151004073251.GA32349@dbit.dbit.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5BE2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20151006191043.GA13965@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 06:54:09PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> But most popular tape >> labeling schemes will always produce even-lengthed records, so there's no >> difference. > >Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly octets as >their native data representation. :-> Believe me, I was totally thinking of the TM03/TM78 in 36-bit mode when I stuck "most" in there. :-) John Wilson D Bit From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Oct 6 14:14:38 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:14:38 +0000 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> <20151005192908.GF17511@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5C73@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Ian S. King Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 3:30 PM > ISTR having run 7.2 briefly on an 11/785 (to troubleshoot an install > problem with 6.2), and while I didn't do much with it, it did come up and > run. And I've used 7.2 quite a bit on 3100-series machines with minimal > RAM. Granted, I didn't try to do anything resource-intensive, but I did > run the machines over serial. -- Ian Recently upgraded from 6.2 to 7.3 in order to install TCP/IP Services instead of CMU/IP (discussed in this list at the time). Runs very nicely. For comparison to Christian Gauger-Cosgrove's SimH instance: Welcome to Rosencrantz! (VAX-11/780-5 @ Living Computer Museum) $ show cpu ROSIE, a VAX-11/785 Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded. PRIMARY CPU = 00 Active CPUs: 00 Configured CPUs: 00 $ show mem System Memory Resources on 6-OCT-2015 11:56:59.90 Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Modified Main Memory (24.00Mb) 49152 17336 29050 2766 Virtual I/O Cache Usage (pages): Total Free In Use Maximum Cache Memory 6857 0 6857 27869 Slot Usage (slots): Total Free Resident Swapped Process Entry Slots 130 109 21 0 Balance Set Slots 88 69 19 0 Dynamic Memory Usage (bytes): Total Free In Use Largest Nonpaged Dynamic Memory 2372608 827264 1545344 591552 Paged Dynamic Memory 1465856 1098720 367136 1097792 Paging File Usage (pages): Free Reservable Total DISK$VMS062SYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS 2008 2008 2008 DISK$VMS062SYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYS 49526 14657 54016 Of the physical pages in use, 13854 pages are permanently allocated to OpenVMS. $ show sys OpenVMS V7.3 on node ROSIE 6-OCT-2015 11:57:15.12 Uptime 40 16:53:36 Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page flts Pages 20200101 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:08:51.85 0 0 20211504 ALDERSON CUR 4 276 0 00:00:22.08 13616 381 20200106 CLUSTER_SERVER HIB 12 11 0 00:00:00.50 200 307 20200107 CONFIGURE HIB 9 29 0 00:00:00.36 125 185 20200108 LANACP HIB 13 48 0 00:00:01.25 360 864 2020010A IPCACP HIB 10 6 0 00:00:24.77 191 102 2020010B ERRFMT HIB 8 24786 0 00:08:27.24 145 216 2020010C CACHE_SERVER HIB 16 6 0 00:00:00.15 83 123 2020010D OPCOM HIB 9 210903 0 00:48:41.89 4757 230 2020010E AUDIT_SERVER HIB 10 43181 0 00:29:34.51 642 621 2020010F JOB_CONTROL HIB 10 95355 0 00:13:24.10 359 335 20200110 QUEUE_MANAGER HIB 10 37658 0 00:13:55.68 830 735 20200111 SECURITY_SERVER HIB 10 21452 0 01:15:12.72 5131 1338 20200112 SMISERVER HIB 9 35 0 00:09:59.82 346 169 20200113 TCPIP$INETACP HIB 8 375775 0 02:02:09.30 1223 882 20211048 SMJ LEF 6 286296 0 00:41:45.37 937 615 20206662 CROSS LEF 4 7864 0 00:04:36.76 42366 280 2020396E TCPIP$FTP_3 LEF 10 819 0 00:00:24.54 6472 1796 N 2020B277 TORESBE LEF 4 1543 0 00:00:52.86 11107 307 2021147E STREMHLAV LEF 6 319 0 00:00:13.62 6577 308 $ Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 14:22:23 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:22:23 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5BE2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <006201d0fe60$1a374650$4ea5d2f0$@gmail.com> <20151004073251.GA32349@dbit.dbit.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5BE2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <56141F6F.6020905@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 11:54 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly > octets as their native data representation. :-> And one finds odd-byte-sized records not infrequently in big iron--and then you have to ask "where do most half-inch 9-track tapes originate?" It ain't from DEC, for sure. FWIW, my routines don't bother to pad to an even byte boundary. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 6 15:05:44 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 16:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 repair started Message-ID: <20151006200544.34F5318C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tony Duell > if it behaves as you describe, it would appear that if placed at the > remote end of the bus it could lock the bus by forcing SACK/ asserted > (as the M9302 does) if a grant chain is open [and there's a board with > a pull-up on the grant input just after the break], whereas if it is > placed at the CPU end it can't. YP;IF. But yeah, good point - this smarter board actually works _better_ at the start of the bus, than at the end. Noel From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Oct 6 15:46:03 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 21:46:03 +0100 Subject: VMS and supported VAX hardware In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5C73@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20151003210024.GA18950@Update.UU.SE> <56105BF0.7030700@update.uu.se> <20151005071259.GD26304@Update.UU.SE> <20151005190747.GE17511@Update.UU.SE> <44B9D7E8-F1D4-4D96-83FE-63D62D166900@comcast.net> <20151005192908.GF17511@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE5C73@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: So cool ? On 6 October 2015 at 20:14, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ian S. King > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 3:30 PM > > > ISTR having run 7.2 briefly on an 11/785 (to troubleshoot an install > > problem with 6.2), and while I didn't do much with it, it did come up and > > run. And I've used 7.2 quite a bit on 3100-series machines with minimal > > RAM. Granted, I didn't try to do anything resource-intensive, but I did > > run the machines over serial. -- Ian > > > Recently upgraded from 6.2 to 7.3 in order to install TCP/IP Services > instead > of CMU/IP (discussed in this list at the time). Runs very nicely. For > comparison > to Christian Gauger-Cosgrove's SimH instance: > > > Welcome to Rosencrantz! > (VAX-11/780-5 @ Living Computer Museum) > > $ show cpu > > ROSIE, a VAX-11/785 > Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded. > > PRIMARY CPU = 00 > Active CPUs: 00 > Configured CPUs: 00 > $ show mem > System Memory Resources on 6-OCT-2015 11:56:59.90 > > Physical Memory Usage (pages): Total Free In Use > Modified > Main Memory (24.00Mb) 49152 17336 29050 > 2766 > > Virtual I/O Cache Usage (pages): Total Free In Use > Maximum > Cache Memory 6857 0 6857 > 27869 > > Slot Usage (slots): Total Free Resident > Swapped > Process Entry Slots 130 109 21 > 0 > Balance Set Slots 88 69 19 > 0 > > Dynamic Memory Usage (bytes): Total Free In Use > Largest > Nonpaged Dynamic Memory 2372608 827264 1545344 > 591552 > Paged Dynamic Memory 1465856 1098720 367136 > 1097792 > > Paging File Usage (pages): Free Reservable > Total > DISK$VMS062SYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS 2008 2008 > 2008 > DISK$VMS062SYS:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYS 49526 14657 > 54016 > > Of the physical pages in use, 13854 pages are permanently allocated to > OpenVMS. > $ show sys > OpenVMS V7.3 on node ROSIE 6-OCT-2015 11:57:15.12 Uptime 40 > 16:53:36 > Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page flts > Pages > 20200101 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:08:51.85 0 > 0 > 20211504 ALDERSON CUR 4 276 0 00:00:22.08 13616 > 381 > 20200106 CLUSTER_SERVER HIB 12 11 0 00:00:00.50 200 > 307 > 20200107 CONFIGURE HIB 9 29 0 00:00:00.36 125 > 185 > 20200108 LANACP HIB 13 48 0 00:00:01.25 360 > 864 > 2020010A IPCACP HIB 10 6 0 00:00:24.77 191 > 102 > 2020010B ERRFMT HIB 8 24786 0 00:08:27.24 145 > 216 > 2020010C CACHE_SERVER HIB 16 6 0 00:00:00.15 83 > 123 > 2020010D OPCOM HIB 9 210903 0 00:48:41.89 4757 > 230 > 2020010E AUDIT_SERVER HIB 10 43181 0 00:29:34.51 642 > 621 > 2020010F JOB_CONTROL HIB 10 95355 0 00:13:24.10 359 > 335 > 20200110 QUEUE_MANAGER HIB 10 37658 0 00:13:55.68 830 > 735 > 20200111 SECURITY_SERVER HIB 10 21452 0 01:15:12.72 5131 > 1338 > 20200112 SMISERVER HIB 9 35 0 00:09:59.82 346 > 169 > 20200113 TCPIP$INETACP HIB 8 375775 0 02:02:09.30 1223 > 882 > 20211048 SMJ LEF 6 286296 0 00:41:45.37 937 > 615 > 20206662 CROSS LEF 4 7864 0 00:04:36.76 42366 > 280 > 2020396E TCPIP$FTP_3 LEF 10 819 0 00:00:24.54 6472 > 1796 N > 2020B277 TORESBE LEF 4 1543 0 00:00:52.86 11107 > 307 > 2021147E STREMHLAV LEF 6 319 0 00:00:13.62 6577 > 308 > $ > > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 6 15:50:40 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 15:50:40 -0500 Subject: RL02 slides (Re: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides) In-Reply-To: References: <5613F755.5070907@charter.net> <5613FE1A.4090105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56143420.3030305@charter.net> I have one (and just one) set of RL01 slides that I can spare, presuming that the slides for the RL01 and RL02 are identical. DEC part numbers are 12-13686-00-B-L and -R Ben, if you are in the US (otherwise shipping is probably not worth it), contact me off list and we can discuss price / trade. JRJ On 10/6/2015 1:14 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I actually need some slides for my RL02... Are these the same type? I > have no rack/slide hardware for it at all, and just have it mounted on > a homemade sliding shelf for now. I'd love to have it mounted > properly! > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/6/15 9:31 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> >>> Those look like the normal narrow slides DEC typically used >> >> >> DEC used Chassis-Trak slides, still made by General Devices, and are not >> difficult to find. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221719800397 >> >> >> > > > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 17:58:46 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:58:46 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? Message-ID: >I've got a bunch of files that are Overland 32xx-related, but I don't >know if they'll be useful. I don't recall where I got them off the web, >but I'll be happy to forward them along. Probably close to 75MB worth. Thanks, I?ll gladly take all of it. Email away, or if you can share on a web folder such as a Dropbox I can grab it. Jim Cimmeri also sent me some relevant files, thanks Jim. >I don't care much for the Overland desktop drives, due to the chassis >being constructed largely of plastic. Mine might be a different drive. Tower model, pretty slick design. Seems well constructed, out of metal (I think!), no foam inside the door. And nice locking door too. Very silent, easy to load. Like this one on e-bay right now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-OVERLAND-DATA-STORAGE-TRACK-DRIVE-MODE L-OD3201-/252096228767?hash=item3ab21b2d9f I like it better than my Qualstars. But then again, I haven?t yet met a 9-track tape I didn?t like ;-). My favorites so far are the 729 7-track tapes we have on the IBM 1401. Nothing beats a 1000 lbs, 112.5 inch/second vacuum column drive :-) ! I just posted a video about them acting up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwftXqJu8hs Marc > >Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:02:53 -0700 >From: Chuck Guzis > >I've got a bunch of files that are Overland 32xx-related, but I don't >know if they'll be useful. I don't recall where I got them off the web, >but I'll be happy to forward them along. Probably close to 75MB worth. > >I don't care much for the Overland desktop drives, due to the chassis >being constructed largely of plastic. Watch out for the foam in the lid >too--it degrades with age and then develops air leaks and suddenly, you >can't load a tape. > >--Chuck > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 6 18:27:14 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:27:14 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> Ian wrote... ---- This is more sad to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ ---- It looked mint. That's... just.... :( J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 18:30:13 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:30:13 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: someon should find out if they still have the guts and ask if one could aquire them On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ian wrote... > ---- > This is more sad to me: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ > ---- > > It looked mint. > > That's... just.... :( > > J > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 19:07:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:07:34 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56146246.1050909@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 03:58 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> I've got a bunch of files that are Overland 32xx-related, but I >> don't know if they'll be useful. I don't recall where I got them >> off the web, but I'll be happy to forward them along. Probably >> close to 75MB worth. > > Thanks, I?ll gladly take all of it. Email away, or if you can share > on a web folder such as a Dropbox I can grab it. Jim Cimmeri also > sent me some relevant files, thanks Jim. Jim and I compared the google drive file collection and I've got pretty much the same thing. My Overland is the 3210 desktop model. Streamer, autothread. I use my Fuji 2444 for most everything, heavy, but good. My favorite drive is/are the CDC 607/609. Wonderful units--1500 lbs., IIRC. At any rate, you wouldn't want one to fall on you. Less so the 65x and 66x drives. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 19:12:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:12:32 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay Message-ID: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> While we're on the subject of half-inch tape, the innards of a CDC half-inch tape cleaner, item 281807671456. The seller was surprised to find out that the thing was merely a tape cleaner and not a tape drive, so he probably would like to see an offer. It appears to be complete, but for the outer cabinet. Sellers says it powers up just fine. Not mine, but cleaners don't come up too often, so I thought the list might be interested. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 19:16:20 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:16:20 -0500 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> Message-ID: would this be a good thing for audio tapes ? On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While we're on the subject of half-inch tape, the innards of a CDC > half-inch tape cleaner, item 281807671456. The seller was surprised to > find out that the thing was merely a tape cleaner and not a tape drive, so > he probably would like to see an offer. It appears to be complete, but for > the outer cabinet. Sellers says it powers up just fine. > > Not mine, but cleaners don't come up too often, so I thought the list > might be interested. > > --Chuck > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 6 19:22:16 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:22:16 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: <56146246.1050909@sydex.com> References: <56146246.1050909@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561465B8.4080704@jwsss.com> On 10/6/2015 5:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/06/2015 03:58 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >>> I've got a bunch of files that are Overland 32xx-related, but I >>> don't know if they'll be useful. I don't recall where I got them >>> off the web, but I'll be happy to forward them along. Probably >>> close to 75MB worth. >> >> Thanks, I?ll gladly take all of it. Email away, or if you can share >> on a web folder such as a Dropbox I can grab it. Jim Cimmeri also >> sent me some relevant files, thanks Jim. > Jim Stephens. I'll send to anyone who may have digitized overland info. Not sure why it isn't on Bitsavers though. > Jim and I compared the google drive file collection and I've got > pretty much the same thing. > > My Overland is the 3210 desktop model. Streamer, autothread. > > I use my Fuji 2444 for most everything, heavy, but good. > > My favorite drive is/are the CDC 607/609. Wonderful units--1500 lbs., > IIRC. At any rate, you wouldn't want one to fall on you. Less so the > 65x and 66x drives. > > --Chuck > > > > > > From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Oct 6 19:27:33 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:27:33 -0500 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: In the comments on that HP mini Reddit thread someone said he was still using them for work. I asked him about that, and he said they're used for timetables on London's Underground! On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > someon should find out if they still have the guts and ask if one could > aquire them > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Ian wrote... >> ---- >> This is more sad to me: >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ >> ---- >> >> It looked mint. >> >> That's... just.... :( >> >> J >> >> >> -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 6 19:54:43 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:54:43 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> > > find out that the thing was merely a tape cleaner and not a tape > > drive, so he probably would like to see an offer. It appears to be > > complete, but for the outer cabinet. Sellers says it powers up just > fine. > > > > Not mine, but cleaners don't come up too often, so I thought the list > > might be interested. Just curious how does it work? -Ali From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 19:58:59 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:58:59 -0600 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74E6725B-A4FC-4E59-AC70-9BA7CD948965@gmail.com> > Jim Cimmeri also sent me some relevant files, thanks Jim. I meant Jim Stephens... Much appreciated. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 20:02:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:02:38 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56146F2E.6090305@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 05:16 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > would this be a good thing for audio tapes ? I don't see why not, providing your audio tapes have the same hub dimensions. (I'm not that familiar with 1/2" audio tape). Does audio tape also use BOT/EOT reflective markers? Reminds of the day way back when, when dealers of budget white-box audio tape would take used 1/2" computer tape and slit it down the middle. I think "Shamrock" was one such brand (obviosly a takeoff on Herbert Orr's "Irish" brand tape). --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 20:25:05 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 20:25:05 -0500 Subject: A VIC-20 IEEE Project Message-ID: Some friends in the local 8-bit micro hobby have whipped up a clone of Commodore's VIC-1112 IEEE interface for the VIC-20 computer. The news has probably permeated most of the C= scene but I figured it was worth dropping here for maximum exposure. I saw the prototype working at VCF Midwest earlier this year. They're funding it through Kickstarter and have reached their goal, so production is sure to go ahead. You've got your choice of a DiY board, assembled board or a fully cased cartridge. Just over 60 hours to go: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1203958506/vic-20-ieee-interface -j From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 20:26:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:26:34 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> Message-ID: <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 05:54 PM, Ali wrote: > Just curious how does it work? Pretty simple--basically, it draws the tape over a carbide or ceramic blade and scrapes loose surface oxide off; pads wipe both sides of the tape. Usually, you can program this to do multiple cycles, measure out BOT/EOT placement, etc. Can be very handy at times--most data centers had them. Mine also has a vacuum system that draws the tape over a perforated grating and collects the yuck. Fast and slow speeds. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 20:41:58 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 20:41:58 -0500 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <56146F2E.6090305@sydex.com> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <56146F2E.6090305@sydex.com> Message-ID: Temping to tell a friend to buy it got a 20,000 tape collect that needs to be digitized of rare opera recordings On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/06/2015 05:16 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> would this be a good thing for audio tapes ? >> > > I don't see why not, providing your audio tapes have the same hub > dimensions. (I'm not that familiar with 1/2" audio tape). Does audio tape > also use BOT/EOT reflective markers? > > Reminds of the day way back when, when dealers of budget white-box audio > tape would take used 1/2" computer tape and slit it down the middle. I > think "Shamrock" was one such brand (obviosly a takeoff on Herbert Orr's > "Irish" brand tape). > > --Chuck > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 6 21:35:16 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 21:35:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - IDE compatibility (and setup disk image) In-Reply-To: <561273E6.8080209@gmail.com> References: <561273E6.8080209@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > My Portable II uses a Miniscribe ST506/412 drive hooked up to a bridge > board that I'm told is IDE at the other side, back to the controller. > The original drive in my machine is toast - I had to pop the lid to free > the spindle. It spins up now, and might cough up some data (for a > while), so intention is two-fold: > > 1) Put the original drive and bridge board into a more modern system to > attempt a read, > > 2) Replace the original drive/bridge combo with a more modern IDE drive > (happy to waste 99% of the space on it...) > > Are there any gotchas involved to either of these, given that IDE was > presumably in its infancy when the system was current, and so its > possibly a slightly different animal to a more modern version? I don't > want to fry the Compaq's controller, or the bridge board. > > In addition to this, the machine's lost its config, so currently > defaults to a floppy boot. Does anyone happen to have an image of the > 360K setup floppy, either in Imagedisk or raw format? (LLF is presumably > 512 byte sectors, 9 sectors/track, and 40 tracks per side?) If you know the Softpaq number, I can see if I have the configuration disk in my archives. It would have been located in ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/ however at some point most of the files in sp0000-0500/ and sp0501-1000/ at least seem to have disappeared. I have copies of these that I happened to archive back when I regularly serviced Compaq systems (although I do not have copies of all of the much much larger softpaq subdirectories). From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 6 21:39:44 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 21:39:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Compaq Portable II - IDE compatibility (and setup disk image) In-Reply-To: References: <561273E6.8080209@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2015, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> My Portable II uses a Miniscribe ST506/412 drive hooked up to a bridge >> board that I'm told is IDE at the other side, back to the controller. >> The original drive in my machine is toast - I had to pop the lid to >> free the spindle. It spins up now, and might cough up some data (for a >> while), so intention is two-fold: >> >> 1) Put the original drive and bridge board into a more modern system to >> attempt a read, >> >> 2) Replace the original drive/bridge combo with a more modern IDE drive >> (happy to waste 99% of the space on it...) >> >> Are there any gotchas involved to either of these, given that IDE was >> presumably in its infancy when the system was current, and so its >> possibly a slightly different animal to a more modern version? I don't >> want to fry the Compaq's controller, or the bridge board. >> >> In addition to this, the machine's lost its config, so currently >> defaults to a floppy boot. Does anyone happen to have an image of the >> 360K setup floppy, either in Imagedisk or raw format? (LLF is >> presumably 512 byte sectors, 9 sectors/track, and 40 tracks per side?) > > If you know the Softpaq number, I can see if I have the configuration > disk in my archives. It would have been located in > ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/ however at some point most of the files in > sp0000-0500/ and sp0501-1000/ at least seem to have disappeared. I have > copies of these that I happened to archive back when I regularly > serviced Compaq systems (although I do not have copies of all of the > much much larger softpaq subdirectories). While I don't know if it is fully intact, there seems to be a more complete copy here: ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/ From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 6 21:43:36 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:43:36 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> > Pretty simple--basically, it draws the tape over a carbide or ceramic > blade and scrapes loose surface oxide off; pads wipe both sides of the Chuck, Thanks for the explanation. So then you would use this on tape w/o data or w/ data that does not need to be retained? I ask because scraping off loose carbide sounds like it may cause problems with data integrity. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 21:58:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 19:58:54 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> Message-ID: <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 07:43 PM, Ali wrote: > Thanks for the explanation. So then you would use this on tape w/o > data or w/ data that does not need to be retained? I ask because > scraping off loose carbide sounds like it may cause problems with > data integrity. There's not much that's typically scraped off. What you get is a dirt-free smooth surface. Most data centers ran used tapes through a cleaning machine before returning the tapes to the scratch pool. But I've not found that a tape cleaner affects existing data in any way. A step up is a recertifier that writes and reads back a pattern and notes the bad spots. Usually done after a cleaning pass. --Chuck From js at cimmeri.com Tue Oct 6 22:00:06 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2015 22:00:06 -0500 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> Message-ID: <56148AB6.80102@cimmeri.com> On 10/6/2015 9:43 PM, Ali wrote: >> Pretty simple--basically, it draws the tape over a carbide or ceramic >> blade and scrapes loose surface oxide off; pads wipe both sides of the > > Chuck, > > Thanks for the explanation. So then you would use this on tape w/o data or w/ data that does not need to be retained? I ask because scraping off loose carbide sounds like it may cause problems with data integrity. > > -Ali > > > That's all assuming you can find blades and pads for such a machine. - J. From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 6 22:19:46 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 20:19:46 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> Message-ID: <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> > A step up is a recertifier that writes and reads back a pattern and > notes the bad spots. Usually done after a cleaning pass. > > --Chuck Well apparently you can still buy recertifiers for the low low price of $8K w/ warranty. I guess if you are the CHM or recovery outfit like yours Chuck it makes sense. You can also get a new cleaner w/ warranty for $2K. Was this equipment ever cheap (i.e. when it was prevalent and in use daily)? -Ali From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 22:32:55 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 22:32:55 -0500 Subject: A VIC-20 IEEE Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I didn't realize there was a shortage of these things. Just a couple months ago, I bought a VIC IEC to IEEE-488 interface for around $25 on eBay, and ended up selling it back off for about the same. This is probably faster, being that it connects directly to the Expansion Port (data / address busses, etc) but still the same function. That said, COOL! Glad to hear folks are doing stuff for the PET / VIC era. And hey, I just heard that VIC-20 is the 'new' C-64.. ;-) On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Jason T wrote: > Some friends in the local 8-bit micro hobby have whipped up a clone of > Commodore's VIC-1112 IEEE interface for the VIC-20 computer. The news > has probably permeated most of the C= scene but I figured it was worth > dropping here for maximum exposure. I saw the prototype working at > VCF Midwest earlier this year. They're funding it through Kickstarter > and have reached their goal, so production is sure to go ahead. > You've got your choice of a DiY board, assembled board or a fully > cased cartridge. > > Just over 60 hours to go: > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1203958506/vic-20-ieee-interface > > -j > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 23:28:43 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 23:28:43 -0500 Subject: A VIC-20 IEEE Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:32 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I didn't realize there was a shortage of these things. Just a couple months > ago, I bought a VIC IEC to IEEE-488 interface for around $25 on eBay, and > ended up selling it back off for about the same. That does seem cheap to me but maybe the VIC doesn't get the love the C64 normally gets, even on ebay. > That said, COOL! Glad to hear folks are doing stuff for the PET / VIC era. > And hey, I just heard that VIC-20 is the 'new' C-64.. ;-) It is pretty "niche," even as micros go, to design something new for the VIC-20 rather than the C64. That said, I couldn't design a power cord if I tried, so I'll take what I can get. And of course it encourages people willing to design and build these gadgets to do more, so that's a plus, too. j From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 23:37:07 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 00:37:07 -0400 Subject: A VIC-20 IEEE Project References: Message-ID: <98B98A888CBC430EAB344A4F0FC4DF1B@310e2> Tsk, and I just gave one away (a VIC-1112); actually used it way back then. Pretty "niche" indeed, but "cool"... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 12:28 AM Subject: Re: A VIC-20 IEEE Project > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:32 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: >> I didn't realize there was a shortage of these >> things. Just a couple months >> ago, I bought a VIC IEC to IEEE-488 interface >> for around $25 on eBay, and >> ended up selling it back off for about the >> same. > > That does seem cheap to me but maybe the VIC > doesn't get the love the > C64 normally gets, even on ebay. > >> That said, COOL! Glad to hear folks are doing >> stuff for the PET / VIC era. >> And hey, I just heard that VIC-20 is the 'new' >> C-64.. ;-) > > It is pretty "niche," even as micros go, to > design something new for > the VIC-20 rather than the C64. That said, I > couldn't design a power > cord if I tried, so I'll take what I can get. > And of course it > encourages people willing to design and build > these gadgets to do > more, so that's a plus, too. > > j From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 7 01:24:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 23:24:45 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> Message-ID: <5614BAAD.6050305@sydex.com> On 10/06/2015 08:19 PM, Ali wrote: > Well apparently you can still buy recertifiers for the low low price > of $8K w/ warranty. I guess if you are the CHM or recovery outfit > like yours Chuck it makes sense. You can also get a new cleaner w/ > warranty for $2K. > > Was this equipment ever cheap (i.e. when it was prevalent and in use > daily)? If you were running a data center with many thousands of tapes, a recertifier was probably a money saver. Was it ever cheap? I doubt it--but worth its weight in rhodium. I picked my cleaner up govt. surplus--brand new; the only thing missing was the bottle of Freon TF. Apparently you're not allowed to sell the stuff anymore. It wouldn't surprise me if the government still has a few squirreled away. In my case, the blade is a triangular silicon carbide affair, so 3 sharp edges available for use. If I couldn't find a replacement, I could easily have one made up by any of the machine tool refurbishers--but I doubt I'll ever get to that place. As far as a recertifier--no need here; I'm about reading tapes, not writing them. Once the data is retrieved, there's no need to read the tape again. However, I am still looking for a an 800 BPI NRZI-capable drive. --Chuck From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 04:14:27 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 05:14:27 -0400 Subject: This is sad... In-Reply-To: <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151003210703.1274818C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5E8C862612444D8CA2250A3C30DDD2C2@TeoPC> <20151004050240.GB3251@lonesome.com> <5611BFBE.3040107@sbcglobal.net> <000201d1008e$88e7e570$9ab7b050$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <065A0759-039C-424D-A214-17071E41128C@gmail.com> Sad is not nearly strong enough. Looks like it was in great shape till the butcher hacked it up. Joe > On Oct 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > > Ian wrote... > ---- > This is more sad to me: > https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ > ---- > > It looked mint. > > That's... just.... :( > > J > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 07:07:54 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 07:07:54 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II - IDE compatibility (and setup disk image) In-Reply-To: References: <561273E6.8080209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56150B1A.5010201@gmail.com> On 10/06/2015 09:35 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > If you know the Softpaq number, I can see if I have the configuration disk > in my archives. Thanks - I just found it last night on a vintage computer page for the Portable III (but the II seems to use the same software). It's booting from hard disk now - although the system board battery is snafu, so it loses its config again as soon as the power's off. Now to find a replacement drive, I doubt that the one I had to open up will stay running for long! :-) cheers Jules From Mark at Misty.com Wed Oct 7 07:32:47 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:32:47 -0400 Subject: Spare Time Gizmos Life game LED tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151007123247.GA31962@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Dave, On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 05:40:14AM +0000, dave at 661.org wrote: > > I've acquired an unpopulated board for a Spare Time Gizmos Life > game. Does anyone here who've made one still have an LED tool you > don't need that you can pass along. How about a design file for > making one myself? I tried asking this on the Spare Time Gizmos list > and nobody replied. I do not have an LED tool -- my board came from someone else who had already done that part. I just wanted to comment that the voltage regulator and bridge rectifier run quite hot. If you choose to put it in an enclosed frame, consider a TO-3 regulator and screw-mount bridge recifier on an aluminum back-plate. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:34:08 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:34:08 -0600 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: <74E6725B-A4FC-4E59-AC70-9BA7CD948965@gmail.com> References: <74E6725B-A4FC-4E59-AC70-9BA7CD948965@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will never get this right, I should have said John Singleton. Jim helped also. And Chuck. Very helpful community. Thank you all. Marc > On Oct 6, 2015, at 6:58 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > >> Jim Cimmeri also sent me some relevant files, thanks Jim. > I meant Jim Stephens... Much appreciated. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 7 10:52:04 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:52:04 -0700 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: References: <74E6725B-A4FC-4E59-AC70-9BA7CD948965@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56153FA4.8010400@sydex.com> On 10/07/2015 08:34 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > I will never get this right, I should have said John Singleton. Jim > helped also. And Chuck. Very helpful community. Thank you all. Marc S'okay--I knew who you meant. Sometimes I forget my own name before my first morning cuppa. --Chuck (I think...) From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 12:07:00 2015 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:07:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for RX01/02 rack slides In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I actually need some slides for my RL02... Are these the same type? >Nope. DIGITAL designed their own chassis slides after the 11/34 >11/44, RLxx and everything after were custom. I think at that point there I'd wander down to the local computer recycling center, buy a set of suitable rails and mount a new set on with self-tapping screws once you checked your clearances. It's what I did to my 11/84, RA82 and Cipher drives. -John From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 12:52:41 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:52:41 -0500 Subject: IBM terminals last call Message-ID: <023f01d10128$f6761b30$e3625190$@com> Today they start getting cut up if no one responds. 3472 and 3477 terminals, keyboards, printers, etc. 12 pallets total. The terminals are coax. Maybe 100 of them. Keyboards are 122 key, prob abt 150 of them, most have cables. Some are RJ45 and some 5-pin DIN. Yes, you can go look, if you want 10 or more of something. No, he won't ship individual units. Located in WI. Email me off list if you seriously want to go buy. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 12:58:36 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:58:36 -0500 Subject: server for terminals Message-ID: <025001d10129$ca6727e0$5f3577a0$@com> I did ask, and he said there is nothing labeled 360 or 390 or any server-looking cabinet, nor anything waist tall except the line printers, and nothing that looks like a computational device except the 3174-11R, of which there are 3. If there is something else to ask, please let me know. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 13:15:34 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:15:34 +0100 Subject: server for terminals In-Reply-To: <025001d10129$ca6727e0$5f3577a0$@com> References: <025001d10129$ca6727e0$5f3577a0$@com> Message-ID: <020901d1012c$29027230$7b075690$@gmail.com> Cindy, I have forwarded this to the Hercules (Mainframe Emulation) list. I don't suppose there are any takes, but there might be... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Croxton > Sent: 07 October 2015 18:59 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: server for terminals > > I did ask, and he said there is nothing labeled 360 or 390 or any server-looking > cabinet, nor anything waist tall except the line printers, and nothing that > looks like a computational device except the 3174-11R, of which there are 3. > If there is something else to ask, please let me know. > > > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 14:29:37 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:29:37 -0500 Subject: IBM terminals last call In-Reply-To: <023f01d10128$f6761b30$e3625190$@com> References: <023f01d10128$f6761b30$e3625190$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > Today they start getting cut up if no one responds. [snip] > Located in WI. Email me off list if you seriously want to go buy. I'm still wondering where in Wisconsin this is. -- Eric Christopherson From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 14:37:19 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:37:19 -0500 Subject: IBM terminals last call In-Reply-To: References: <023f01d10128$f6761b30$e3625190$@com> Message-ID: <02dd01d10137$9474b2c0$bd5e1840$@com> Northwest part of the state. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Christopherson Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 2:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM terminals last call On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > Today they start getting cut up if no one responds. [snip] > Located in WI. Email me off list if you seriously want to go buy. I'm still wondering where in Wisconsin this is. -- Eric Christopherson --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 7 14:46:57 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:46:57 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <5614BAAD.6050305@sydex.com> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> <5614BAAD.6050305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2E4D62DB-FB30-4F1B-9EE3-DFBB2009395B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-06, at 11:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > However, I am still looking for a an 800 BPI NRZI-capable drive. I have an HP 7970A - 9-track, 800BPI - with my HP 2116. I wrote monitor commands to exercise it and do tape dumps from it. They're uncommon compared to 1600 & > BPI drives, figured that was because the 800 standard was older and saw a shorter life before being superseded, but are such drives that rare or hard to come by? (I rather wished it was 1600 so I could read more-common tapes.) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 14:56:27 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:56:27 -0700 Subject: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <2E4D62DB-FB30-4F1B-9EE3-DFBB2009395B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> <5614BAAD.6050305@sydex.com> <2E4D62DB-FB30-4F1B-9EE3-DFBB2009395B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I have an HP 7970A - 9-track, 800BPI - with my HP 2116. I wrote monitor commands to exercise it and do tape dumps from it. > > They're uncommon compared to 1600 & > BPI drives, figured that was because the 800 standard was older and saw a shorter life before being superseded, but are such drives that rare or hard to come by? > > (I rather wished it was 1600 so I could read more-common tapes.) I have an 800BPI 7970B in a 2113B rack system. I've never gotten around to trying to get it up and running. Are they fairly reliable drives to get going again? I don't have any other 800BPI drives to write any tapes to read with it. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 15:00:24 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:00:24 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 16, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <648FF998-9CF1-45A7-BDD7-B87B59EC6A7A@gmail.com> I used John's routine to write and Chuck's to read an HP 1000 SIMH tape image, and the file diff came out identical, give or take a few end characters that I don't believe are part of the data. So you guys are essentially compatible as expected (16 bit machine it sure is). Marc From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS > On 10/06/2015 11:54 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Of course, that's mostly true for those machines restricted to silly > octets as their native data representation. :-> And one finds odd-byte-sized records not infrequently in big iron--and then you have to ask "where do most half-inch 9-track tapes originate?" It ain't from DEC, for sure. FWIW, my routines don't bother to pad to an even byte boundary. --Chuck From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 15:07:02 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:07:02 -0600 Subject: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know what you mean. There were two awesome CDC 609 available semi locally recently. Carl and I fantasized to pick them up. When we looked at the weight, clearer mind prevailed and we gave up. Not sure what happened to them. Marc ================================================ Subject: Re: Manual for the Overland Data OD3201 Tape Drive? My favorite drive is/are the CDC 607/609. Wonderful units--1500 lbs., IIRC. At any rate, you wouldn't want one to fall on you. Less so the 65x and 66x drives. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 7 15:29:37 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:29:37 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <56146370.9020508@sydex.com> <027601d1009a$c296ee90$47c4cbb0$@net> <561474CA.90105@sydex.com> <028401d100a9$f836a9a0$e8a3fce0$@net> <56148A6E.1010003@sydex.com> <028b01d100af$056bc240$104346c0$@net> <5614BAAD.6050305@sydex.com> <2E4D62DB-FB30-4F1B-9EE3-DFBB2009395B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <858603D2-2D79-45D6-993C-A8939D996815@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-07, at 12:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> I have an HP 7970A - 9-track, 800BPI - with my HP 2116. I wrote monitor commands to exercise it and do tape dumps from it. >> >> They're uncommon compared to 1600 & > BPI drives, figured that was because the 800 standard was older and saw a shorter life before being superseded, but are such drives that rare or hard to come by? >> >> (I rather wished it was 1600 so I could read more-common tapes.) > > I have an 800BPI 7970B in a 2113B rack system. I've never gotten > around to trying to get it up and running. Are they fairly reliable > drives to get going again? I don't have any other 800BPI drives to > write any tapes to read with it. Well, the unit here was in pretty good physical condition as received. It had a cascading failure in the capstan driver but it was a fairly straightforward fix. I think there was one sluggish/partially-seized pulley bearing (freed up with some oil). Pretty rugged drives as you know. I wonder about the capstan rubber in the long term but I think that's about the only thing to worry about on age alone. I think bitsavers nowadays has manuals and schematics for the B version as you have, years ago I had to do some reverse-engineering for the capstan repair. This page is over ten years old and needs some updating, but FWIW: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116CSys/index.html Note the tape drive repair log page linked there. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 20:59:44 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 20:59:44 -0500 Subject: IBM 3480 server and storage Message-ID: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> My Chicago buddy has an entire IBM 3480 system, server and storage. The storage rack has 64 hard drives. He has the tapes that go with it. Email me if you are interested. I can get PN and pics. Will palletize and ship or you can pick up. No, it is not a freebie J Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 7 22:56:32 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 22:56:32 -0500 Subject: IBM 3480 server and storage In-Reply-To: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> References: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> Message-ID: <5615E970.1000800@charter.net> Something does not quite add up. A 3480 is a tape subsystem, not a CPU ("server") - it would not have have disk drives. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3480_Family JRJ On 10/7/2015 8:59 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > My Chicago buddy has an entire IBM 3480 system, server and storage. The > storage rack has 64 hard drives. He has the tapes that go with it. > > Email me if you are interested. I can get PN and pics. Will palletize and > ship or you can pick up. No, it is not a freebie J > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From cctalk at fahimi.net Wed Oct 7 23:24:28 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:24:28 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator Message-ID: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> Hello All, This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and ready to go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this smoothly and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! -Ali From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 23:42:52 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:42:52 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> Message-ID: <5615F44C.8060201@gmail.com> On 10/7/15 9:24 PM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, > > This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the > excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully > assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and ready to > go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this smoothly > and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! > > -Ali > > Ditto that, mine arrived today as well and I can't wait to put it to use... - Josh From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 00:12:18 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:12:18 +1300 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> Message-ID: If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? I've just written to David to order a couple :) Mike On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > Hello All, > > This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the > excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully > assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and ready to > go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this smoothly > and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! > > -Ali > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 00:12:26 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:12:26 -0500 Subject: IBM 3480 server and storage In-Reply-To: <5615E970.1000800@charter.net> References: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> <5615E970.1000800@charter.net> Message-ID: <007f01d10187$ec33de50$c49b9af0$@com> https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3420B.html Click on the pic to enlarge. He said there is a tall grey cabinet, a tall black cabinet, and various shorter cabinets. The black cabinet has the hdd, I think. It was just de-installed last week, fully working. They have to wipe or remove the hdd. I can get the PN and pics of everything tomorrow. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 10:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM 3480 server and storage Something does not quite add up. A 3480 is a tape subsystem, not a CPU ("server") - it would not have have disk drives. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3480_Family JRJ On 10/7/2015 8:59 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > My Chicago buddy has an entire IBM 3480 system, server and storage. The > storage rack has 64 hard drives. He has the tapes that go with it. > > Email me if you are interested. I can get PN and pics. Will palletize and > ship or you can pick up. No, it is not a freebie J > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 16:52:43 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:52:43 -0400 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: <9C91FB47-A0B9-460E-A165-45FD2341A0C0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <9C91FB47-A0B9-460E-A165-45FD2341A0C0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: It should be easy enough to install on a test system, check the address space where typical bootstraps go, see what's there, etc. Thanks. On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Oct-06, at 9:18 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 2:26 PM > > To: cctech > > Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" > > > > What is the purpose of this controller? It came with a PDP 11/05 system: > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-05/dec_r-k_abbr_bootPC_Board-a_front.jpg > > > > Printed on the controller is > > R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board 609395 Rev B > > 802000 Rev > > > > I searched around, found nothing specific Is this a bootstrap board for > an > > RK drive? > > -- > > Bill > > vintagecomputer.net > > > > ========= > > I am clueless too, but if you want to play Sherlock Holmes, > > it should be possible to figure it out. > > 20 ICs, several will be familiar in use in circuitr for the bus. > > I'd first check whether it is intended for UNIBUS (likely) or QBUS. > > Given the IC types you can estimate the circuit complexity. > > If there are lots of simple gates it is just a puzzle. > > The board has good quality machined pins, so after making pictures > > and a drawing the location of each IC, you could pull them and > > trace every pin, visually and with an Ohm meter. Lots of work, not > > difficult, but very time consuming ... > > Good for the dark evenings :-) > > > IC date codes are 75/6, I guess that's just late enough to be QBUS, but > more likely UNIBUS. > > Can't discern all the IC types but some speculation based on what can be > seen: the labeled IC could be a 256*4 PROM, when a memory read-cycle is > initiated the 74221 monostables sequence the reading of 4-bit chunks into > the the 74175 latches to make up a 16-bit word for presentation on the bus. > The jumpers at centre-bottom could be the base address. > A 256*4 PROM would give a 64-word bootstrap. > > Easy board to reverse-engineer. > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 19:17:30 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 20:17:30 -0400 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: <56159E8E.5040707@charter.net> References: <9C91FB47-A0B9-460E-A165-45FD2341A0C0@cs.ubc.ca> <56159E8E.5040707@charter.net> Message-ID: It's UNIBUS I bet a GC card! On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/7/2015 4:52 PM, william degnan wrote: > > It should be easy enough to install on a test system, check the address > > space where typical bootstraps go, see what's there, etc. Thanks. > > > > But one ought to first check whether the board is intended for a UNIBUS > or Q-Bus system! > > JRJ > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 7 15:58:38 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:58:38 -0700 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C91FB47-A0B9-460E-A165-45FD2341A0C0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-06, at 9:18 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: william degnan > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 2:26 PM > To: cctech > Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" > > What is the purpose of this controller? It came with a PDP 11/05 system: > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-05/dec_r-k_abbr_bootPC_Board-a_front.jpg > > Printed on the controller is > R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board 609395 Rev B > 802000 Rev > > I searched around, found nothing specific Is this a bootstrap board for an > RK drive? > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net > > ========= > I am clueless too, but if you want to play Sherlock Holmes, > it should be possible to figure it out. > 20 ICs, several will be familiar in use in circuitr for the bus. > I'd first check whether it is intended for UNIBUS (likely) or QBUS. > Given the IC types you can estimate the circuit complexity. > If there are lots of simple gates it is just a puzzle. > The board has good quality machined pins, so after making pictures > and a drawing the location of each IC, you could pull them and > trace every pin, visually and with an Ohm meter. Lots of work, not > difficult, but very time consuming ... > Good for the dark evenings :-) IC date codes are 75/6, I guess that's just late enough to be QBUS, but more likely UNIBUS. Can't discern all the IC types but some speculation based on what can be seen: the labeled IC could be a 256*4 PROM, when a memory read-cycle is initiated the 74221 monostables sequence the reading of 4-bit chunks into the the 74175 latches to make up a 16-bit word for presentation on the bus. The jumpers at centre-bottom could be the base address. A 256*4 PROM would give a 64-word bootstrap. Easy board to reverse-engineer. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 7 17:37:02 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:37:02 -0500 Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" In-Reply-To: References: <9C91FB47-A0B9-460E-A165-45FD2341A0C0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56159E8E.5040707@charter.net> On 10/7/2015 4:52 PM, william degnan wrote: > It should be easy enough to install on a test system, check the address > space where typical bootstraps go, see what's there, etc. Thanks. > But one ought to first check whether the board is intended for a UNIBUS or Q-Bus system! JRJ From scaron at umich.edu Wed Oct 7 23:18:53 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:18:53 -0400 Subject: IBM 3480 server and storage In-Reply-To: <5615E970.1000800@charter.net> References: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> <5615E970.1000800@charter.net> Message-ID: Sounds like they may have confused the A22 Control Unit with a CPU? Although that doesn't explain any HDDs ... all the A22 pictures I've found show it having just a 5.25" floppy drive. In line with the confusion theme, perhaps the "HDDs" are really tape cartridges? If the price is right, maybe it could be a fun peripheral project for one of the guys with the Multiprise systems? :O Best, Sean On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 11:56 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Something does not quite add up. A 3480 is a tape subsystem, not a CPU > ("server") - it would not have have disk drives. > > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3480_Family > > JRJ > > On 10/7/2015 8:59 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > My Chicago buddy has an entire IBM 3480 system, server and storage. The > > storage rack has 64 hard drives. He has the tapes that go with it. > > > > Email me if you are interested. I can get PN and pics. Will palletize > and > > ship or you can pick up. No, it is not a freebie J > > > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 8 08:30:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 09:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC pdp 11 "R-K ABBR. BOOT P. C. Board" Message-ID: <20151008133037.B3EF218C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger > one ought to first check whether the board is intended for a UNIBUS or > Q-Bus system! Easiest way to do that is to look on the back side at the fingers; if the board does not do interrupts or DMA (likely, if this is a ROM card), there will be U-shaped traces to 'jumper' the grant lintes: a QBUS card will have a pair, with a single finger space between them; a UNIBUS card will have a group of four, with no spaces between them. Either pattern is absolutely definitive. If you don't see either... time to drag out the ohm-meter! :-) Noel From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 12:07:51 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:07:51 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> Message-ID: <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> I was one of the people who built the early rev boards David had. Excellent project, he is the man... Here are a few images for your crazy kids to get started with. I'll be adding more as they come in: http://x.quaalud.es/images/ If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 7, 2015, at 22:12, Mike Ross wrote: > > If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread > use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of > ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best > collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? > > I've just written to David to order a couple :) > > Mike > >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the >> excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully >> assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and ready to >> go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this smoothly >> and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! >> >> -Ali > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Oct 8 12:42:41 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:42:41 +0000 Subject: IBM 3480 server and storage In-Reply-To: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> References: <000d01d1016d$00f0f730$02d2e590$@com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEBE7214@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Cindy Croxton Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 7:00 PM > My Chicago buddy has an entire IBM 3480 system, server and storage. The > storage rack has 64 hard drives. He has the tapes that go with it. > Email me if you are interested. I can get PN and pics. Will palletize and > ship or you can pick up. No, it is not a freebie J Cindy, It sounds like there are *three* items involved here. The 3480 tape subsystem is all short cabinets--I know, I've worked with them. It is entirely possible that there is a disk storage array and a server connected to the 3480, that is to say, a complete data processing system. Please ask your friend for a little more detail on the server and the storage rack. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 13:15:22 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 11:15:22 -0700 Subject: Symbolics MCD-405 tape drive / Georgens Industries Message-ID: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> Does anyone have a loose 3M/Georgens MCD-405 tape drive they could take board pictures and firmware dumps from, or any of the other MCD-40 series tape drives? I'm trying to figure out how similar it is to the one in the Apple 40mb tape drive. I was asked about recovering some tapes from a Supermac 40mb tape/disk scsi box, and I am trying to figure out what tape drive I might need to do it. It appears it is Gammamat format, which would work with the Apple drives, and I wanted to compare the firmware from a non-Apple, so I started looking around for SCSI Gammamat drives. I also thought this would be useful knowledge for anyone trying to dump Symbolics XL-Series DC2040 tapes. One interesting thing mentioned in the Amiga BTNTape tape handler was they mention it was possible on some MCD series drives to format a blank DC2000 tape. They mention formatting with 2:1 interleave. Sadly, there were also people who said there was a tech manual available from Georgens on the series, but they didn't want to spend $50 for it. Georgens Industries was in San Diego and there still a few traces of them, but they are long gone at their last adr. I see that Chuck mentioned they were into the maintenance biz, Georgens was involved with DEI down there looking at his patents, and bought 3M's streamer tape line. Places like Weird Stuff have piles of the DC2000 floppy tape drives, need to do more digging to see if there are any SCSI ones around. Then, I have to redo the pinch roller. All the Apple tape drives have been dead for over ten years with rollers turned to orange goo. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 13:18:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 11:18:45 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/15 10:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. > yes, that is the plan. I received one this week as well that I was going to put into an 1186 to make some Koto/Lyric/Medley fresh system images. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 13:23:01 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 11:23:01 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/15 11:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/8/15 10:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. >> > > yes, that is the plan. I received one this week as well that I was going to put into an 1186 to make some Koto/Lyric/Medley fresh system images. > I also see there's a computer museum coming to Capitol Hill https://twitter.com/retrocompsea From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 13:38:07 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 11:38:07 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> That's my pet project at this point. We are having some issues with the space so it will probably (hopefully) open as appointment-only early next year. The idea is to find trustworthy people who we can give access to the space to so they can see projects thru from end-to-end on these systems- learn the development environments, etc. We do not intend to overlap with a big, professional museum like CHM or LCM. Rather think of this as a kind of a maker-space for old systems; There is a lot of interest in Seattle- largely people from the software industry- who would love to code something on a real PDP 11, Symbolics or a Xerox or a 3B2 / BLIT, but aren't equipped to handle care and feeding of these sorts of machines. We also hope to set up reasonable networking and remote access for systems where it is possible so that people can continue to write software and reverse engineer things from home, but also visit the machines whenever they need or want to. It's a pretty crappy little basement but better than nothing, we will see what happens. Perhaps it was premature to spin up the Twitter, we have a ways to go but are slowly making progress. Cheers- - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 8, 2015, at 11:23, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 10/8/15 11:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 10/8/15 10:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: >>> >>> If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. >> >> yes, that is the plan. I received one this week as well that I was going to put into an 1186 to make some Koto/Lyric/Medley fresh system images. > > I also see there's a computer museum coming to Capitol Hill > https://twitter.com/retrocompsea > > > From simski at dds.nl Thu Oct 8 14:35:51 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:35:51 +0200 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5616C597.1020101@dds.nl> That sounds like the museum we have at hack42.nl. we are a hackerspace with a enormous collection of old computers but we are not open at regular times. of course making the collection available in an database on the web and digitising the documentation is one of our goals (besides having fun with those machines. :-) ) simon On 08-10-15 20:38, Ian Finder wrote: > That's my pet project at this point. > > We are having some issues with the space so it will probably (hopefully) open as appointment-only early next year. > > The idea is to find trustworthy people who we can give access to the space to so they can see projects thru from end-to-end on these systems- learn the development environments, etc. > > We do not intend to overlap with a big, professional museum like CHM or LCM. Rather think of this as a kind of a maker-space for old systems; There is a lot of interest in Seattle- largely people from the software industry- who would love to code something on a real PDP 11, Symbolics or a Xerox or a 3B2 / BLIT, but aren't equipped to handle care and feeding of these sorts of machines. > > We also hope to set up reasonable networking and remote access for systems where it is possible so that people can continue to write software and reverse engineer things from home, but also visit the machines whenever they need or want to. > > It's a pretty crappy little basement but better than nothing, we will see what happens. > > Perhaps it was premature to spin up the Twitter, we have a ways to go but are slowly making progress. > > Cheers- > > - Ian -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 14:37:07 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 12:37:07 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5616C5E3.40304@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/15 11:38 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > We do not intend to overlap with a big, professional museum like CHM or LCM. Rather think of this as a kind of a maker-space for old systems; There is a lot of interest in Seattle- largely people from the software industry- who would love to code something on a real PDP 11, Symbolics or a Xerox or a 3B2 / BLIT, but aren't equipped to handle care and feeding of these sorts of machines. > Good. There have been false starts for something similar down here for at least five years The problem is real estate has become insanely expensive here, so it is tough to get traction. I have a good friend that lived on CH in the 90's, and it sounds like things are getting bad up there too. From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 14:37:47 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:37:47 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <5616C597.1020101@dds.nl> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> <5616B385.90507@bitsavers.org> <5616B485.8000509@bitsavers.org> <6B1AC6E0-9AE4-422F-9502-6613A9B53E56@gmail.com> <5616C597.1020101@dds.nl> Message-ID: I consider below a sort of unspoken goal of all responsible folk in this hobby, but sadly I have been disappointed on occasion: > of course making the collection available in an database on the web and digitising the documentation is one of our goals On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, simon wrote: > That sounds like the museum we have at hack42.nl. we are a hackerspace > with a enormous collection of old computers but we are not open at regular > times. of course making the collection available in an database on the web > and digitising the documentation is one of our goals (besides having fun > with those machines. :-) ) > > simon > > > On 08-10-15 20:38, Ian Finder wrote: > >> That's my pet project at this point. >> >> We are having some issues with the space so it will probably (hopefully) >> open as appointment-only early next year. >> >> The idea is to find trustworthy people who we can give access to the >> space to so they can see projects thru from end-to-end on these systems- >> learn the development environments, etc. >> >> We do not intend to overlap with a big, professional museum like CHM or >> LCM. Rather think of this as a kind of a maker-space for old systems; There >> is a lot of interest in Seattle- largely people from the software industry- >> who would love to code something on a real PDP 11, Symbolics or a Xerox or >> a 3B2 / BLIT, but aren't equipped to handle care and feeding of these sorts >> of machines. >> >> We also hope to set up reasonable networking and remote access for >> systems where it is possible so that people can continue to write software >> and reverse engineer things from home, but also visit the machines whenever >> they need or want to. >> >> It's a pretty crappy little basement but better than nothing, we will see >> what happens. >> >> Perhaps it was premature to spin up the Twitter, we have a ways to go but >> are slowly making progress. >> >> Cheers- >> >> - Ian >> > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 14:51:12 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:51:12 -0700 Subject: Small Computer Museum Entities [ Was: Re: MFM Emulator ] Message-ID: CH is pretty nasty right now. We're trying to use my friend's old basement office apartment to get this started. He has been there for years and it's very cheap-- for now. Seattle has gotten ridiculous, so if the building sells or the rent goes up, most of the gear will get packed away once again. A definite risk factor, but hopefully by then we will at least have produced an active community. Or maybe it's all doomed from the get-go; only one way to find out-- It's all conjecture until I get around to moving my ass... :) We are quite close, just need to clean, move in a few more systems, and figure out the initial access structure. Any local folk interested in participating should ping me off-list. - Ian On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/8/15 11:38 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > We do not intend to overlap with a big, professional museum like CHM or >> LCM. Rather think of this as a kind of a maker-space for old systems; There >> is a lot of interest in Seattle- largely people from the software industry- >> who would love to code something on a real PDP 11, Symbolics or a Xerox or >> a 3B2 / BLIT, but aren't equipped to handle care and feeding of these sorts >> of machines. >> >> > Good. There have been false starts for something similar down here for at > least five years > > The problem is real estate has become insanely expensive here, so it is > tough to get traction. > > I have a good friend that lived on CH in the 90's, and it sounds like > things are getting bad up there > too. > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 15:05:04 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:05:04 -0500 Subject: 3480 update Message-ID: <033901d10204$9f507530$ddf15f90$@com> >From the people in Chicago: I have the Cabinets I am not sure about the part numbers though. I tried searching them but i was lost. We have 2, 3490-A10 a 3490-B40, two 44P4352 (as you will see in the pictures the laptop is with one of them) and what i think is 2066-002. Again I am not 100% on these part numbers. I hope the pictures help. He did not send the pictures as attachments, so I can't save them. I have asked him to re-send them. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 15:26:46 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:26:46 -0500 Subject: 3480 pictures Message-ID: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> See if this will work. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE &usp=sharing Some of the pictures are not very good. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 15:44:04 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 22:44:04 +0200 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two Message-ID: Unfortunately SVT ?ppet Arkiv is not available to anyone outside Sweden, which is a pity. A great source. This interest for computers and election vigils come from the fact that I had a email conversation with a person that was involved when DEC won the contract to for the election in 1976 in Sweden for SVT. He was involved in adapting the VT30 system for TV use. Genlock and stuff. I found three clips in ?ppet Arkiv which I trimmed down heavily. These shows tend to be quite long anyhow. I hope SVT is not getting mad now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoFM3hfbic /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 15:49:04 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 13:49:04 -0700 Subject: Symbolics MCD-405 tape drive / Georgens Industries In-Reply-To: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> References: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5616D6C0.1040604@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/15 11:15 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have a loose 3M/Georgens MCD-405 tape drive they could take board pictures > and firmware dumps from, or any of the other MCD-40 series tape drives? I'm trying to > figure out how similar it is to the one in the Apple 40mb tape drive. > looks like Brad went down this rabbit hole 10 years ago List: classiccmp Subject: QIC-100 SCSI tape drive? From: Brad Parker Date: 2004-03-29 15:01:57 Message-ID: 200403291501.i2TF1vX09756 () mwave ! heeltoe ! com [Download message RAW] Anyone have a QIC-100 SCSI tape drive drive? Or know where to get one? Seems like there was a brief window when such a thing existed, but I can't seem to find any evidence on the web. I must be searching for the wrong thing. I probably need a specific product. I've got a qic-150 drive (the large 4x6x.5" carts). I need a qic-100 drive. (I suspect it's the same size cart as a TU-58. I don't plan to use it to read TU-58's, but who knows, maybe it will read them) --- Other Google searches turned up articles in InfoWorld saying the format was developed by Tallgrass, which explains the ASIC with their name on in inside the 3M/Apple tape mechanism I have pictures of on bitsavers/3M and that Gammamat is QIC-100 At least the on-tape format is documented in the QIC spec. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 8 15:53:01 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:53:01 -0700 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> Message-ID: <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2015 1:26 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > See if this will work. > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE > ring> &usp=sharing > > Some of the pictures are not very good. > > There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. The 3490 numbers refer to the tape library in the image025.jpg. Please make sure that Dave McGuire has seen this before they destroy anything, as he is making a serious effort to restore a couple of mainframes. I think his current system is contemporary with the mainframe hiere. The 3174-1 is almost certainly a channel attached unit, probably with bus / tag to this unit. I don't know of a conversion to run the 3174-1's off anything but copper, but there may be escon boxes to be preserved that do this if it isn't copper bus / tag cable sets. I'd love a couple of coax terminals but not the entire lot if possible. I have a couple of 3174-63's that one or two would go nicely with for Hercules use. Thanks Jim > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 16:04:27 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:04:27 -0500 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. The 3490 numbers refer to the tape library in the image025.jpg. Please make sure that Dave McGuire has seen this before they destroy anything, as he is making a serious effort to restore a couple of mainframes. I think his current system is contemporary with the mainframe hiere. The 3174-1 is almost certainly a channel attached unit, probably with bus / tag to this unit. I don't know of a conversion to run the 3174-1's off anything but copper, but there may be escon boxes to be preserved that do this if it isn't copper bus / tag cable sets. I'd love a couple of coax terminals but not the entire lot if possible. I have a couple of 3174-63's that one or two would go nicely with for Hercules use. Thanks Jim Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for a price for the system. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:08:33 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:08:33 +1300 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perq and Symbolics! Very useful; exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. Xerox would be very good for me; I have a bunch of 6085 workstations with about one good disk between them... Mike On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I was one of the people who built the early rev boards David had. > > Excellent project, he is the man... > > Here are a few images for your crazy kids to get started with. I'll be adding more as they come in: > http://x.quaalud.es/images/ > > If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 7, 2015, at 22:12, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread >> use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of >> ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best >> collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? >> >> I've just written to David to order a couple :) >> >> Mike >> >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the >>> excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully >>> assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and ready to >>> go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this smoothly >>> and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! >>> >>> -Ali >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 8 16:09:54 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:09:54 -0700 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> Message-ID: <99CFA284-BCD1-441C-9DCB-8BD77FE66066@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 8, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > > There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo > showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical > that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the > difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. > > > > Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for a > price for the system. > It?s not only important to preserve the laptop(s) but to preserve them *with* the z/system. It?s an integral part of the machine. The z/system is a boat anchor without it. TTFN - Guy From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:17:44 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 14:17:44 -0700 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike- as soon as I get mine working I'll snag my disk back from Mr. Josh D. and image it up too :) On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Perq and Symbolics! Very useful; exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. > > Xerox would be very good for me; I have a bunch of 6085 workstations > with about one good disk between them... > > Mike > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > > I was one of the people who built the early rev boards David had. > > > > Excellent project, he is the man... > > > > Here are a few images for your crazy kids to get started with. I'll be > adding more as they come in: > > http://x.quaalud.es/images/ > > > > If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a > full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. > > > > - Ian > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Oct 7, 2015, at 22:12, Mike Ross wrote: > >> > >> If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread > >> use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of > >> ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best > >> collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? > >> > >> I've just written to David to order a couple :) > >> > >> Mike > >> > >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > >>> Hello All, > >>> > >>> This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the > >>> excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully > >>> assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and > ready to > >>> go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this > smoothly > >>> and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! > >>> > >>> -Ali > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://www.corestore.org > >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:20:56 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:20:56 +1300 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Superb. There was more than one environment/OS available for those machines as I recall; I've only ever seen the Viewpoint setup, but there was at least one development environment available too IIRC...? Mike On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > Mike- as soon as I get mine working I'll snag my disk back from Mr. Josh D. > and image it up too :) > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> Perq and Symbolics! Very useful; exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. >> >> Xerox would be very good for me; I have a bunch of 6085 workstations >> with about one good disk between them... >> >> Mike >> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Ian Finder wrote: >> > I was one of the people who built the early rev boards David had. >> > >> > Excellent project, he is the man... >> > >> > Here are a few images for your crazy kids to get started with. I'll be >> adding more as they come in: >> > http://x.quaalud.es/images/ >> > >> > If Al decides these sorts of images belong on bitsavers, I'll go on a >> full-on imaging spree and work to improve my information hygiene. >> > >> > - Ian >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Oct 7, 2015, at 22:12, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> >> >> If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread >> >> use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of >> >> ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best >> >> collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? >> >> >> >> I've just written to David to order a couple :) >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: >> >>> Hello All, >> >>> >> >>> This is just a general shout out and thanks to David (Gesswein) for the >> >>> excellent work on the MFM emulator boards. I received both of my fully >> >>> assembled emulators today. They arrived professionally packaged and >> ready to >> >>> go out of the box. I wish more hobby/home brew projects went this >> smoothly >> >>> and bore such excellent fruit. Kudos to David! >> >>> >> >>> -Ali >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 8 17:09:40 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:09:40 -0700 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <99CFA284-BCD1-441C-9DCB-8BD77FE66066@shiresoft.com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> <99CFA284-BCD1-441C-9DCB-8BD77FE66066@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5616E9A4.2010008@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2015 2:09 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Oct 8, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >> >> >> There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo >> showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical >> that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the >> difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. >> >> >> >> Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for a >> price for the system. >> > It?s not only important to preserve the laptop(s) but to preserve them *with* > the z/system. It?s an integral part of the machine. The z/system is a boat > anchor without it. > > TTFN - Guy > > > Good point, Guy. A backup may not be enough as well. If by some miracle the microcode is available from the customer site in the form of floppies of CDrom that is critical too. Mike Ross may comment on this and maybe others, but I think it is possible to build back up an HMC for one of these systems given the microcode, more easily than it is with older systems which used PS2/30's. But it is critical to have the microcode, which is most likely a copy of OS/2 with a bunch of extra files on it. The PS2/30's had a very narrow range of hardware that is increasingly not around in working form (disk drives) anymore, where the laptops have a better chance of working with the image backup place on a different unit. But one needs access to this laptop to make sure it is backed up (or system) before going very far. Thanks Jim From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Oct 8 17:23:53 2015 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 22:23:53 +0000 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com>,<03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E76A033D19@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> There is also appears to be a 2107 (DS8100) in there, but it looks like all the drives have been pulled. That may be recoverable more easily... What was the price tag on all of this stuff? ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Cindy Croxton [sales at elecplus.com] Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:04 PM To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: 3480 pictures There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. The 3490 numbers refer to the tape library in the image025.jpg. Please make sure that Dave McGuire has seen this before they destroy anything, as he is making a serious effort to restore a couple of mainframes. I think his current system is contemporary with the mainframe hiere. The 3174-1 is almost certainly a channel attached unit, probably with bus / tag to this unit. I don't know of a conversion to run the 3174-1's off anything but copper, but there may be escon boxes to be preserved that do this if it isn't copper bus / tag cable sets. I'd love a couple of coax terminals but not the entire lot if possible. I have a couple of 3174-63's that one or two would go nicely with for Hercules use. Thanks Jim Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for a price for the system. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 17:40:55 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:40:55 +1300 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: <5616E9A4.2010008@jwsss.com> References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> <99CFA284-BCD1-441C-9DCB-8BD77FE66066@shiresoft.com> <5616E9A4.2010008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: This is a more recent z/Series machine; it may well be running Linux on the Support Element rather than OS/2. But Guy is 100% correct; all the support and configuration stuff there is critical to preserve exactly as-is. Recreating it from backups or reinstalling it from scratch is not for the faint-hearted. A lot of it is very arcane stuff, for IBM service engineers only; don't forget, there's stuff in there IBM charge big money for - enabling and disabling CPUs and memory. You want more CPU in your mainframe? You pay IBM $50k or whatever and they send an engineer round to turn it on... ok it can be done remotely too these days but point taken; there's a lot of stuff in there that's critical, undocumented, specific to the individual machine, and never supposed to be touched by anyone outside IBM... Mike On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 10/8/2015 2:09 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> On Oct 8, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >>> >>> >>> There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo >>> showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical >>> that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the >>> difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for >>> a >>> price for the system. >>> >> It?s not only important to preserve the laptop(s) but to preserve them >> *with* >> the z/system. It?s an integral part of the machine. The z/system is a >> boat >> anchor without it. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> > Good point, Guy. A backup may not be enough as well. If by some miracle > the microcode is available from the customer site in the form of floppies of > CDrom that is critical too. > > Mike Ross may comment on this and maybe others, but I think it is possible > to build back up an HMC for one of these systems given the microcode, more > easily than it is with older systems which used PS2/30's. But it is > critical to have the microcode, which is most likely a copy of OS/2 with a > bunch of extra files on it. > > The PS2/30's had a very narrow range of hardware that is increasingly not > around in working form (disk drives) anymore, where the laptops have a > better chance of working with the image backup place on a different unit. > > But one needs access to this laptop to make sure it is backed up (or system) > before going very far. > Thanks > Jim > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 17:46:57 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:46:57 -0500 Subject: 3480 pictures In-Reply-To: References: <036e01d10207$a7ce5940$f76b0bc0$@com> <5616D7AD.7030104@jwsss.com> <03a001d1020c$eaeda140$c0c8e3c0$@com> <99CFA284-BCD1-441C-9DCB-8BD77FE66066@shiresoft.com> <5616E9A4.2010008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <03b601d1021b$3cb76700$b6263500$@com> There are MANY boxes of tapes, manuals, etc. that came with this equipment. I am still waiting for a price. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 5:41 PM To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 3480 pictures This is a more recent z/Series machine; it may well be running Linux on the Support Element rather than OS/2. But Guy is 100% correct; all the support and configuration stuff there is critical to preserve exactly as-is. Recreating it from backups or reinstalling it from scratch is not for the faint-hearted. A lot of it is very arcane stuff, for IBM service engineers only; don't forget, there's stuff in there IBM charge big money for - enabling and disabling CPUs and memory. You want more CPU in your mainframe? You pay IBM $50k or whatever and they send an engineer round to turn it on... ok it can be done remotely too these days but point taken; there's a lot of stuff in there that's critical, undocumented, specific to the individual machine, and never supposed to be touched by anyone outside IBM... Mike On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:09 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 10/8/2015 2:09 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> On Oct 8, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >>> >>> >>> There appears to be a Z system in the photos. Image035.jpg is a photo >>> showing the open system bay, and the HMC laptop. It is beyond critical >>> that that laptop be carefully preserved and handled, as that will be the >>> difference between junk and possibly turning it on and running it again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Jim. I have let them know to preserve the laptop, and asked for >>> a >>> price for the system. >>> >> It?s not only important to preserve the laptop(s) but to preserve them >> *with* >> the z/system. It?s an integral part of the machine. The z/system is a >> boat >> anchor without it. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >> > Good point, Guy. A backup may not be enough as well. If by some miracle > the microcode is available from the customer site in the form of floppies of > CDrom that is critical too. > > Mike Ross may comment on this and maybe others, but I think it is possible > to build back up an HMC for one of these systems given the microcode, more > easily than it is with older systems which used PS2/30's. But it is > critical to have the microcode, which is most likely a copy of OS/2 with a > bunch of extra files on it. > > The PS2/30's had a very narrow range of hardware that is increasingly not > around in working form (disk drives) anymore, where the laptops have a > better chance of working with the image backup place on a different unit. > > But one needs access to this laptop to make sure it is backed up (or system) > before going very far. > Thanks > Jim > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 17:53:13 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 15:53:13 -0700 Subject: Symbolics MCD-405 tape drive / Georgens Industries In-Reply-To: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> References: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have a loose 3M/Georgens MCD-405 tape drive they could take > board pictures > and firmware dumps from, or any of the other MCD-40 series tape drives? > I'm trying to > figure out how similar it is to the one in the Apple 40mb tape drive. > I believe I have one in my XL1200, I will check tonight. - Josh > > I was asked about recovering some tapes from a Supermac 40mb tape/disk > scsi box, and I > am trying to figure out what tape drive I might need to do it. It appears > it is Gammamat > format, which would work with the Apple drives, and I wanted to compare > the firmware from > a non-Apple, so I started looking around for SCSI Gammamat drives. I also > thought this > would be useful knowledge for anyone trying to dump Symbolics XL-Series > DC2040 tapes. > > One interesting thing mentioned in the Amiga BTNTape tape handler was they > mention it was > possible on some MCD series drives to format a blank DC2000 tape. They > mention formatting > with 2:1 interleave. > > Sadly, there were also people who said there was a tech manual available > from Georgens on > the series, but they didn't want to spend $50 for it. Georgens Industries > was in San Diego > and there still a few traces of them, but they are long gone at their last > adr. I see that > Chuck mentioned they were into the maintenance biz, Georgens was involved > with DEI down there > looking at his patents, and bought 3M's streamer tape line. > > Places like Weird Stuff have piles of the DC2000 floppy tape drives, need > to do more digging > to see if there are any SCSI ones around. > > Then, I have to redo the pinch roller. All the Apple tape drives have been > dead for over ten > years with rollers turned to orange goo. > > > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 18:22:37 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 18:22:37 -0500 Subject: Burroughs Distribution Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any idea what this might go to? Someone suggested a B1700, but wasn't exactly sure. http://imgur.com/a/rYtjR Thanks, Kyle From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 8 18:48:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 16:48:53 -0700 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> On 10/08/2015 01:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Unfortunately SVT ?ppet Arkiv is not available to anyone outside > Sweden, which is a pity. A great source. > > This interest for computers and election vigils come from the fact > that I had a email conversation with a person that was involved when > DEC won the contract to for the election in 1976 in Sweden for SVT. > He was involved in adapting the VT30 system for TV use. Genlock and > stuff. > > I found three clips in ?ppet Arkiv which I trimmed down heavily. > These shows tend to be quite long anyhow. I hope SVT is not getting > mad now. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoFM3hfbic Interesting. Anent that, here's a nice article about the use of computers in a US Presidential election in 1952: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2012/10/31/163951263/the-night-a-computer-predicted-the-next-president I wonder if there aren't still some congressional districts where votes are counted by hand in the US. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 8 19:29:44 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:29:44 -0500 Subject: 3480 additional info Message-ID: <03c201d10229$986b0440$c9410cc0$@com> The 3480 and other large stuff is in Chicago. The 3472 and 3477 terminals and keyboards are in WI. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 19:41:00 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:41:00 -0700 Subject: Burroughs Distribution Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56170D1C.2060608@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/15 4:22 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Any idea what this might go to? Someone suggested a B1700, but wasn't > exactly sure. > probably, since it was made in Goleta. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Oct 8 22:06:18 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:06:18 +1300 Subject: Amstrad external disk drive (FD-1) Message-ID: More Amstrad restoration, for those who might be interested. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-10-08-amstrad-fd1-adventure.htm Terry (Tez) From a13stesk at student.his.se Fri Oct 9 06:24:51 2015 From: a13stesk at student.his.se (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:24:51 +0200 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> tor 2015-10-08 klockan 16:48 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > On 10/08/2015 01:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Unfortunately SVT ?ppet Arkiv is not available to anyone outside > > Sweden, which is a pity. A great source. > > > > This interest for computers and election vigils come from the fact > > that I had a email conversation with a person that was involved > > when > > DEC won the contract to for the election in 1976 in Sweden for SVT. > > He was involved in adapting the VT30 system for TV use. Genlock and > > stuff. > > > > I found three clips in ?ppet Arkiv which I trimmed down heavily. > > These shows tend to be quite long anyhow. I hope SVT is not getting > > mad now. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoFM3hfbic > > Interesting.??Anent that, here's a nice article about the use of > computers in a US Presidential election in 1952: > > http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2012/10/31/163951263/th > e-night-a-computer-predicted-the-next-president > > I wonder if there aren't still some congressional districts where > votes > are counted by hand in the US. > > --Chuck > All the votes is still counted by hand. Both att election evening (by election workers) and afterwards (multiple times) in the months after election. The "Valvaka" is the election day TV-program, the computers is included because people wants an early impression of who will be statsminister in one week, it's an statistical exercise. AT election day we have 3 different elections: local municipality (really its "house" which then elects the cabinett including "city major") the same for "l?n" (country council) and state (election elects the country's riksdag - "house") Riksdagen elects statsminister (normally, the situation now is a bit peculiar.) The state administration thru its "l?nsstyrelser" (who is geographical areas corresponding to "l?n/region" (country council) it responsible for counting and tabulating votes (country council election and riksdagen.) From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 06:50:06 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:50:06 -0300 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: lucky you. In Brazil we use vote machines made by diebold, which are as weak in security as a carton box. And no independent entity can ressearch its failures. 2015-10-09 8:24 GMT-03:00 Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) < a13stesk at student.his.se>: > tor 2015-10-08 klockan 16:48 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > > On 10/08/2015 01:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Unfortunately SVT ?ppet Arkiv is not available to anyone outside > > > Sweden, which is a pity. A great source. > > > > > > This interest for computers and election vigils come from the fact > > > that I had a email conversation with a person that was involved > > > when > > > DEC won the contract to for the election in 1976 in Sweden for SVT. > > > He was involved in adapting the VT30 system for TV use. Genlock and > > > stuff. > > > > > > I found three clips in ?ppet Arkiv which I trimmed down heavily. > > > These shows tend to be quite long anyhow. I hope SVT is not getting > > > mad now. > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoFM3hfbic > > > > Interesting. Anent that, here's a nice article about the use of > > computers in a US Presidential election in 1952: > > > > http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2012/10/31/163951263/th > > e-night-a-computer-predicted-the-next-president > > > > I wonder if there aren't still some congressional districts where > > votes > > are counted by hand in the US. > > > > --Chuck > > > > All the votes is still counted by hand. > Both att election evening (by election workers) and afterwards > (multiple times) in the months after election. > > The "Valvaka" is the election day TV-program, the computers is included > because people wants an early impression of who will be statsminister > in one week, it's an statistical exercise. > > AT election day we have 3 different elections: > local municipality (really its "house" which then elects the cabinett > including "city major") > the same for "l?n" (country council) > and state (election elects the country's riksdag - "house") > > Riksdagen elects statsminister (normally, the situation now is a bit > peculiar.) > > The state administration thru its "l?nsstyrelser" (who is geographical > areas corresponding to "l?n/region" (country council) it responsible > for counting and tabulating votes (country council election and > riksdagen.) > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 06:59:05 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 07:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> <1E58C47F-5732-4E8F-8700-7104723B5DD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2015, Ian Finder wrote: > I was one of the people who built the early rev boards David had. Ditto > Excellent project, he is the man... And then some! > Here are a few images for your crazy kids to get started with. I'll be > adding more as they come in: http://x.quaalud.es/images/ Have you been able to turn that Horizon capture around and utilize it in emulation? One of the last remaining nits we're fighting with is that N* Advantage captures do not read correctly when turned around in emulation. Such a capture can be reformatted using the system utilities and will then work fine. David is currently busy getting the latest run out the door so hopefully this will get debugged in the near future. -- From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 9 09:38:07 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:38:07 -0400 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: <4C598B94-6010-4226-9280-E5BE54A25A69@comcast.net> > On Oct 9, 2015, at 7:50 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > lucky you. In Brazil we use vote machines made by diebold, which are as > weak in security as a carton box. And no independent entity can ressearch > its failures. Very convenient for those who run the government that runs the election process. In the state where I live the setup (by law, as I recall) is a nice hybrid. Paper (mark sense) ballots, scanned by machine. But anyone can look at a ballot and see what it says, and you can recount them by hand if necessary. So the security of the counting machines is not actually critical because they aren't the final authority. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 9 11:02:11 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:02:11 -0500 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <4C598B94-6010-4226-9280-E5BE54A25A69@comcast.net> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <4C598B94-6010-4226-9280-E5BE54A25A69@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5617E503.4040609@pico-systems.com> On 10/09/2015 09:38 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Very convenient for those who run the government that runs the election process. > > In the state where I live the setup (by law, as I recall) is a nice hybrid. Paper (mark sense) ballots, scanned by machine. But anyone can look at a ballot and see what it says, and you can recount them by hand if necessary. So the security of the counting machines is not actually critical because they aren't the final authority. > > Here in Missouri, we have touch screen machines that print a paper roll with human-readable vote info PLUS 2D bar codes for fast scanning, and the voter can watch the paper scroll by to verify the human-readable data agrees with their votes. I think it puts time and date on the paper as well, so somebody can't run off a bunch of phony votes before or after the election hours. The paper is like cash register tapes. the first vote info is all electronic, but if there is a recount, the paper tapes can be examined. Any voter can also opt for mark sense ballots. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 11:15:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:15:45 -0700 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <4C598B94-6010-4226-9280-E5BE54A25A69@comcast.net> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <4C598B94-6010-4226-9280-E5BE54A25A69@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5617E831.6020005@sydex.com> On 10/09/2015 07:38 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Very convenient for those who run the government that runs the > election process. > > In the state where I live the setup (by law, as I recall) is a nice > hybrid. Paper (mark sense) ballots, scanned by machine. But anyone > can look at a ballot and see what it says, and you can recount them > by hand if necessary. So the security of the counting machines is > not actually critical because they aren't the final authority. We're mark-sense too, but with a key difference. We have what amounts to a two-week voting period, with returned ballots sent by mail or deposited in special drop-boxes (which, when not used for voting, are used to collect tax payments). No election-day scramble, no trying to find a polling place. I miss the old system of voting in person, but the current one is much more difficult to manipulate and saves money at the same time. --Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Fri Oct 9 11:54:28 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:54:28 -0700 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> On 10/09/2015 4:50 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > lucky you. In Brazil we use vote machines made by diebold, which are as > weak in security as a carton box. And no independent entity can ressearch > its failures. After the fiasco about the Deibold machines changing votes during the Bush election of 2000, Brazil opted for them? That says a lot about your government I'm afraid. Not unlike US states that use Deibold equipment where there is no paper ballot to confirm the results after the voting is closed. That is not democratic at all! Canada still uses paper ballots for our federal elections. Our election voting stations have scrutineers who are volunteers from the various political parties running who watch over the proceedings and can call for assistance if something unusual happens. Our local city election (Vancouver) uses a paper ballot that is read electronically, but the ballots exist in paper and can be counted by the various party scrutineers if they wish (and it happens in closely fought ridings). Canada has had trouble with fake phone calls directing voters to non-existent polling stations in an effort to change the outcome where ridings are close (the candidates have almost equal chance of winning). This was traced to our current government's political party - and the governments' response was to change the way Elections Canada can report problems and help people to get out and vote - they made it harder.... sigh. We shall see what happens on Oct 19 when our federal election happens. John :-#(# > 2015-10-09 8:24 GMT-03:00 Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) < > a13stesk at student.his.se>: > >> tor 2015-10-08 klockan 16:48 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: >>> On 10/08/2015 01:44 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>>> Unfortunately SVT ?ppet Arkiv is not available to anyone outside >>>> Sweden, which is a pity. A great source. If the original poster can provide the link(s) folks may want to use other methods to watch streaming video... >>>> This interest for computers and election vigils come from the fact >>>> that I had a email conversation with a person that was involved >>>> when >>>> DEC won the contract to for the election in 1976 in Sweden for SVT. >>>> He was involved in adapting the VT30 system for TV use. Genlock and >>>> stuff. >>>> >>>> I found three clips in ?ppet Arkiv which I trimmed down heavily. >>>> These shows tend to be quite long anyhow. I hope SVT is not getting >>>> mad now. >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoFM3hfbic >>> Interesting. Anent that, here's a nice article about the use of >>> computers in a US Presidential election in 1952: >>> >>> http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2012/10/31/163951263/th >>> e-night-a-computer-predicted-the-next-president >>> >>> I wonder if there aren't still some congressional districts where >>> votes >>> are counted by hand in the US. >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >> All the votes is still counted by hand. >> Both att election evening (by election workers) and afterwards >> (multiple times) in the months after election. >> >> The "Valvaka" is the election day TV-program, the computers is included >> because people wants an early impression of who will be statsminister >> in one week, it's an statistical exercise. >> >> AT election day we have 3 different elections: >> local municipality (really its "house" which then elects the cabinett >> including "city major") >> the same for "l?n" (country council) >> and state (election elects the country's riksdag - "house") >> >> Riksdagen elects statsminister (normally, the situation now is a bit >> peculiar.) >> >> The state administration thru its "l?nsstyrelser" (who is geographical >> areas corresponding to "l?n/region" (country council) it responsible >> for counting and tabulating votes (country council election and >> riksdagen.) >> From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 11:55:50 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:55:50 -0300 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> Message-ID: >After the fiasco about the Deibold machines changing votes during the >Bush election of 2000, Brazil opted for them? Yep. Welcome to the land of the stupid. From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 9 12:19:09 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 11:19:09 -0600 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > After the fiasco about the Deibold machines changing votes during the Bush >> election of 2000, Brazil opted for them? >> > > Yep. Welcome to the land of the stupid. > The county I live in has paper ballots. You go, you color in the circles, you have it sucked up into a machine that tallies it and places it in a nice, neat stack locked in the machine. Electronic re-counts involve taking the ballots out of the machine, putting them on top and then hitting a button. 120 per second can be rescanned, so in a few minutes, the whole recount is done. And, if there's ever a need, it can be done by hand... Best of both worlds. Warner From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 12:28:04 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:28:04 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay Message-ID: <04e601d102b7$dbafd760$930f8620$@gmail.com> Glen, I'm right in the middle of resuscitating an HP7970E (1600 bpi with the HP-IB interface). The main problem I had so far was the rubber in the reel hubs had completely fused to the tape reels that were left on the hubs. I had to disassemble the hub locking mechanism and use lots of careful X-Acto knife work to separate the two. A few tape rollers were rough or stuck - just oiled them for now. Then it started to work, I am very surprised. There are three red switches on the motor control board inside to make the tape go forward, reverse and fast rewind. So it's pretty easy to test if the transport works and the motor servos and tension arms move how they are supposed to. Brent, Wow, looked at your site, and you actually wrote a HP 2100 cross-assembler? Nice. Would it work for the HP21MX too? Did you compile it using the command line tools in XCode? Marc ========================================================== Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:29:37 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay Message-ID: <858603D2-2D79-45D6-993C-A8939D996815 at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2015-Oct-07, at 12:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I have an 800BPI 7970B in a 2113B rack system. I've never gotten > around to trying to get it up and running. Are they fairly reliable > drives to get going again? I don't have any other 800BPI drives to > write any tapes to read with it. >On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: Well, the unit here was in pretty good physical condition as received. It had a cascading failure in the capstan driver but it was a fairly straightforward fix. I think there was one sluggish/partially-seized pulley bearing (freed up with some oil). Pretty rugged drives as you know. I wonder about the capstan rubber in the long term but I think that's about the only thing to worry about on age alone. I think bitsavers nowadays has manuals and schematics for the B version as you have, years ago I had to do some reverse-engineering for the capstan repair. This page is over ten years old and needs some updating, but FWIW: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116CSys/index.html Note the tape drive repair log page linked there. From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 13:06:03 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:06:03 -0500 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> Message-ID: Forgive the question, but what is an "election vigil"? Just people paying attention to the tallying at night after voting has closed? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 9 13:16:20 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:16:20 -0400 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> Message-ID: <56180474.30404@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-09 2:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Forgive the question, but what is an "election vigil"? Just people > paying attention to the tallying at night after voting has closed? > Usually all day. It's a big deal for TV. --Toby From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 9 14:34:50 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:50 -0500 Subject: Z system pics Message-ID: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> More pictures have been uploaded. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 9 14:49:12 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 12:49:12 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <04e601d102b7$dbafd760$930f8620$@gmail.com> References: <04e601d102b7$dbafd760$930f8620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6CC582C2-58E0-4C36-A430-82C32B6AEBB6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-09, at 10:28 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Glen, > I'm right in the middle of resuscitating an HP7970E (1600 bpi with the HP-IB > interface). The main problem I had so far was the rubber in the reel hubs > had completely fused to the tape reels that were left on the hubs. I had to > disassemble the hub locking mechanism and use lots of careful X-Acto knife > work to separate the two. A few tape rollers were rough or stuck - just > oiled them for now. Then it started to work, I am very surprised. There are > three red switches on the motor control board inside to make the tape go > forward, reverse and fast rewind. So it's pretty easy to test if the > transport works and the motor servos and tension arms move how they are > supposed to. I had that problem with the stuck reel hubs. Failed to take my own advice-to-self to leave the reels unmounted and they stuck again, although easier to get off this time as it hadn't been many years under pressure. > Brent, > Wow, looked at your site, and you actually wrote a HP 2100 cross-assembler? > Nice. Would it work for the HP21MX too? Did you compile it using the command > line tools in XCode? I had originally written it in a re-targetable cross-assembler in a now-outdated development environment under MacOS9. Last year rewrote someone else's assembler (C source) - it should work in any standard C environment. Was using it to re-assemble HPBASIC. I'm not familiar enough with the 21MX machines to say what may have been added/changed from the early 2100's in assembly terms, but it shouldn't be difficult to add to the assembler. Can send you the source if you wish. I had a simulator written in the old OS9 environment too, but haven't brought that into a current state. > Marc > > ========================================================== > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:29:37 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay > Message-ID: <858603D2-2D79-45D6-993C-A8939D996815 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On 2015-Oct-07, at 12:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> I have an 800BPI 7970B in a 2113B rack system. I've never gotten >> around to trying to get it up and running. Are they fairly reliable >> drives to get going again? I don't have any other 800BPI drives to >> write any tapes to read with it. > >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, the unit here was in pretty good physical condition as received. > It had a cascading failure in the capstan driver but it was a fairly > straightforward fix. > I think there was one sluggish/partially-seized pulley bearing (freed up > with some oil). > Pretty rugged drives as you know. I wonder about the capstan rubber in the > long term but I think that's about the only thing to worry about on age > alone. > I think bitsavers nowadays has manuals and schematics for the B version as > you have, years ago I had to do some reverse-engineering for the capstan > repair. > This page is over ten years old and needs some updating, but FWIW: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116CSys/index.html > Note the tape drive repair log page linked there. From jim at deitygraveyard.com Fri Oct 9 14:51:41 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:51:41 -0400 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > More pictures have been uploaded. > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE > > You sure about that URL? I get: Google 500. That?s an error. There was an error. Please try again later. That?s all we know. Jim From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 9 15:04:35 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: Z system link correction Message-ID: <00e401d102cd$b87e6f20$297b4d60$@com> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxqLDyoLYuCKVWNYVEk1cjJwLWM/view?usp=sharin g Try this link; it should work. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 9 15:51:44 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:51:44 -0500 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> Message-ID: <561828E0.90306@charter.net> I was able to see the photos just fine - but I also use Google Drive. But if it was created as a share (read only) by URL, it ought to work for everyone. JRJ On 10/9/2015 2:51 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >> >> More pictures have been uploaded. >> >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE >> >> > > You sure about that URL? I get: > > Google > > 500. That?s an error. > > There was an error. Please try again later. That?s all we know. > > Jim > From ryan at hack.net Fri Oct 9 15:53:20 2015 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:53:20 -0500 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: <561828E0.90306@charter.net> References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> <561828E0.90306@charter.net> Message-ID: <56182940.4050703@hack.net> Google drive has been down today.. across the States anyway. On 10/9/15 3:51 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I was able to see the photos just fine - but I also use Google Drive. > > But if it was created as a share (read only) by URL, it ought to work > for everyone. > > JRJ > > On 10/9/2015 2:51 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >>> More pictures have been uploaded. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE >>> >>> >> You sure about that URL? I get: >> >> Google >> >> 500. That?s an error. >> >> There was an error. Please try again later. That?s all we know. >> >> Jim >> From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Oct 9 16:29:32 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:29:32 -0700 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> Message-ID: <20151009142932.2802c168@honcho.bcwi.net> On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:50 -0500 "Cindy Croxton" wrote: > More pictures have been uploaded. > > > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE pictures work for me... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim at deitygraveyard.com Fri Oct 9 16:31:09 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:31:09 -0400 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: <20151009142932.2802c168@honcho.bcwi.net> References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> <20151009142932.2802c168@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:34:50 -0500 > "Cindy Croxton" wrote: > >> More pictures have been uploaded. >> >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxqLDyoLYuCKZmNsZlo1U0JyVkE > > pictures work for me... Working here now too. Seems Google Drive was having problems. Jim From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Oct 9 16:39:03 2015 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 18:39:03 -0300 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> Message-ID: John Robertson asked: > >After the fiasco about the Deibold machines changing votes during the > >Bush election of 2000, Brazil opted for them? To which Alexandre Souza replied: > Yep. Welcome to the land of the stupid. Ok, I think we need some facts, here. Note that from the very first time I used one of these machines to vote and noted that they typed in my voter ID number using a little keyboard which had a cable going into the voting "cabin" to prep the machine for my vote, my opinion of the whole thing has be very negative. After all, I had only their word that they were not saving my ID along with my vote - there was no hardware limitation against it doing this. And I was not impressed to see a whole PC used where a simple Z80 could have done the job my better. That said, not everything is as bad as the above comments imply. Brazil's government is divided into three parts: executive, legislative and judicial. The first two use public elections to fill their ranks while the third uses appointments. There is a special section within the judicial branch which runs elections for the other two branches. This is a full time section that does nothing but elections, with a federal judge running the national TSE (superior electoral tribunal) which controls the state based TREs (regional electoral tribunals). When TSE decided to switch from paper ballots to voting machines in the mid 1990s, they created a detailed specification and allowed interested manufacturers to bid for the contract. Unisys was the winner for the pilot stage, and several places tried the machines in the next election. It was considered a success and a contract for enough machines for the whole country was awarded to Procomp, the winner of this second round. In the 2000 election for US president, the big deal was the messy recounts of votes in some Florida districts that used very old voting machines with punched cards. These machines had been used for decades with no problems, but the close results of that particular race brought the "hanging chads" to everyone's attention. Over the next few US elections, Diebold machines started to be used and caused a series of problems. Shortly after this, Dielbold bought the brazillian company Procomp and so inherited the contract for maintenance and new machines for TSE. The designs of the voting machines used in the USA and Brazil are unrelated and that the same company is now involved in both is an accident of changing corporate structures. One problem with the TSE/TRE scheme is that any lawsuits involving elections are judged by the very people running them. As you might imagine, they very rarely (if ever) find themselves to be wrong. On the other hand, it is supposed to make it harder for frauds from candidates participating in the elections. Just so this is not completely off topic, I should mention that the second generation of voting machines were based on the Cyrix MediaGX processors, before they were bought by AMD and used in the One Laptop Per Child. So though this was the late 1990s, we are talking about the 386/486 level machine - classic! -- Jecel From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 12:24:23 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:24:23 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS RAM with Parity vs. None Message-ID: (cross posted to MARCH list) Question about UNIBUS RAM with Parity vs. None I assembled a pdp 11/05 in a BK11-K box with a sticky 5 light - I can load an address, but the 5 light will erroneously (often but not always) light when I examine. Once 5 is turned on it stays on, even if the toggle switch is down. Once this occurs I cannot deposit nor can I examine contents of RAM. I intend to test the front panel to verify that toggle 5 is ok electrically, this is a to-do. The power checks out including DC LO AC LO. I transplanted the CPU cards into another system to test and they work also. Aside from the console itself, it must be a RAM problem. The system has 8K Core G235 (xy drive module) H217D (memory stack) G114 (sense / inhibit) M8293 (memory control module) My question - I have read, and to the best of my understanding believe I can swap an H217D with an H217C in this box. Anyone disagree, and if so why did DEC want their 11/05 S to use "D" model core (D=parity) and not C (C=no parity)? The PDP 11/40 I have uses C. -- Bill From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Fri Oct 9 12:34:28 2015 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:34:28 +0200 Subject: MFM Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d10181$39be5940$ad3b0bc0$@net> Message-ID: <5617FAA4.9010307@web.de> Am 08.10.2015 um 07:12 schrieb Mike Ross: > If this thing is ready for prime time and going to get more widespread > use it would be an excellent idea to start developing a library of > ready-to-run disk images for various machines... perhaps a task best > collated by Bitsavers in their copious free time...? > > I've just written to David to order a couple :) > > Mike > > > Thats a good idea. My hardware has a homemade adaption of mfm-harddisk with omti-controller to a genie 3s cp/m system made here in germany. As the image will be useful mostly for myself (I don't know who has made an identically build) I'll make an image and save it on a webserver for archiving. My ordered mfm-emulators are on the way and I'm very excited about them. Greetings fritz From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Fri Oct 9 17:57:03 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:57:03 +1100 Subject: Smalltalk-78 resurrected in a web-browser Message-ID: A mix of Smalltalk luminaries have resurrected Smalltalk-78 (a port of Smalltalk-76 to an early 8086 prototype luggable called NoteTaker http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/notetaker/) and it runs in a modern web-browser using Javascript (even runs on an iPad but will need changes to support touch). http://lively-web.org/users/bert/Smalltalk-78.html PDF describing what they did here: http://www.freudenbergs.de/bert/publications/Ingalls-2014-Smalltalk78.pdf According to this document there is yet to be published Java implementation too. A 35-minute video presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTh65b8qSY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3t13RHO3X8 Smalltalk-78 compliments the Smalltalk-72 Alto emulator from Dan Ingalls released in 2013, although the link I found doesn't seem to work anymore: http://lively-web.org/users/Dan/ALTO-Smalltalk-72.html. It almost works, but the display is messed up on Safari/Chrome. From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 9 18:30:08 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTT: My Amiga Mouse for your Atari ST Mouse! Message-ID: Looking for an Atari ST mouse, have an extra Amiga mouse to trade? Also looking to buy a 520ST power supply to complete a system if anyone knows of extras. -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 9 18:36:04 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system Message-ID: If anyone knows anyone looking for a Cray, Cray J932SE system. 32 proc, 2 megawords of RAM as I recall. Has VME IO subsystem, HIPPI channels on a lot of the CPU boards (originally was 4 x J932SE in a hypercube via hippi IIRC.) Has 4 SCSI disks (9GB) although has room for lots more (system checks disk firmware vendor.) I like it but no place to keep it and I don't want to keep moving it between rental house garages. It's currently in Norfolk Virginia, I'm in Northern Virginia. I have pics of it. I'm not sure the Unicos build I have is compatible with it, it kernel panics on startup. I have some software, the SWS Sparcstation 5. Uses 3 x 220v outlets @ 30 amps each. Here is some stuff from last time I played with it: https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/geek/cray/ These are RARE. I think I know of two or three J932SE systems in the wild, one in Germany one in another foreign country. Was looking for $8500 or so. Pound for pound such a better deal than an Altair. -- Ethan O'Toole From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 19:18:08 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:18:08 -0700 Subject: WTT: My Amiga Mouse for your Atari ST Mouse! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AB0F034-FEC0-46CA-AFCB-D59089E51E17@aracnet.com> FYI, you used to be able to get a mouse that would work on either Atari or Amiga. I don't know if you still can. There are people that specialize in selling Atari gear. Zane On Oct 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Looking for an Atari ST mouse, have an extra Amiga mouse to trade? > > Also looking to buy a 520ST power supply to complete a system if anyone knows of extras. > > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Oct 9 19:24:54 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:24:54 -0500 Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> On Friday (10/09/2015 at 07:36PM -0400), ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Here is some stuff from last time I played with it: > https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/geek/cray/ SYS_CRAYHOST="wopr" :-) -- Chris Elmquist From wilson at dbit.com Fri Oct 9 20:38:53 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:38:53 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project Message-ID: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> This may never see the light of day (if the prototype turns out to be stillborn) but it's pretty and I can't resist posting a pic before I've powered it on and proven its uselessness: http://www.dbit.com/wilson/projects/qba.jpg Officially it's for my morally repugnant attempts to earn a living (so it's supposed to be a Q-bus bridge that connects over Ethernet), but I wanted to still be able to do something fun in the very likely case that the Ethernet port doesn't work (no idea if my PCB layout is kosher for something as fast as the gigabit PHY's bus) or has uselessly high latency, so I added an SD card slot and made all the CPU-end terminators switchable, so it can act as just a plain peripheral (I'm mainly thinking disk controller -- I've already found a reason why the USB device port can't work), if its CPU's alive and can talk to the Q-bus. We'll see. Many many many chances for mistakes. Five different power-supply voltages, for starters. As always, I can't say enough good things about XMOS microcontrollers and OSHpark.com. John Wilson D Bit From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 9 21:44:35 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:44:35 -0500 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <56187B93.8060305@charter.net> Quite a piece of work. I hope you can continue to plug away at it. I get that bit about mistakes. Even my simple PIC-based Documation card reader interface board had a mistake (fortunately, one I could easily fix without having to create a new board). Fortunately, my Mark-8 boards ended up mistake free, but only because of hours and hours and hours of cross-checking against the layouts in the Radio Electronics sponsored flyer, the schematics and against know issues. But those were nothing like this thing's complexity. JRJ On 10/9/2015 8:38 PM, John Wilson wrote: > This may never see the light of day (if the prototype turns out to be > stillborn) but it's pretty and I can't resist posting a pic before I've > powered it on and proven its uselessness: > > http://www.dbit.com/wilson/projects/qba.jpg > > Officially it's for my morally repugnant attempts to earn a living (so it's > supposed to be a Q-bus bridge that connects over Ethernet), but I wanted to > still be able to do something fun in the very likely case that the Ethernet > port doesn't work (no idea if my PCB layout is kosher for something as fast > as the gigabit PHY's bus) or has uselessly high latency, so I added an SD > card slot and made all the CPU-end terminators switchable, so it can act > as just a plain peripheral (I'm mainly thinking disk controller -- I've > already found a reason why the USB device port can't work), if its CPU's > alive and can talk to the Q-bus. We'll see. Many many many chances for > mistakes. Five different power-supply voltages, for starters. > > As always, I can't say enough good things about XMOS microcontrollers and > OSHpark.com. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 9 21:48:18 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:48:18 -0500 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <56187C72.6000509@charter.net> Do U17,U15,U10,U6 perhaps have some solder bridges, or is that just some flux hanging around? JRJ On 10/9/2015 8:38 PM, John Wilson wrote: > This may never see the light of day (if the prototype turns out to be > stillborn) but it's pretty and I can't resist posting a pic before I've > powered it on and proven its uselessness: > > http://www.dbit.com/wilson/projects/qba.jpg > > Officially it's for my morally repugnant attempts to earn a living (so it's > supposed to be a Q-bus bridge that connects over Ethernet), but I wanted to > still be able to do something fun in the very likely case that the Ethernet > port doesn't work (no idea if my PCB layout is kosher for something as fast > as the gigabit PHY's bus) or has uselessly high latency, so I added an SD > card slot and made all the CPU-end terminators switchable, so it can act > as just a plain peripheral (I'm mainly thinking disk controller -- I've > already found a reason why the USB device port can't work), if its CPU's > alive and can talk to the Q-bus. We'll see. Many many many chances for > mistakes. Five different power-supply voltages, for starters. > > As always, I can't say enough good things about XMOS microcontrollers and > OSHpark.com. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From christopher1400 at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 21:50:57 2015 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 19:50:57 -0700 Subject: Z system pics In-Reply-To: References: <009201d102c9$905fe220$b11fa660$@com> <20151009142932.2802c168@honcho.bcwi.net> Message-ID: Google Apps\Drive was having issues. Listed on their site as having had issues earlier today. http://www.google.com/appsstatus#hl=en&v=status From wilson at dbit.com Fri Oct 9 21:58:36 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 22:58:36 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <56187C72.6000509@charter.net> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> <56187C72.6000509@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151010025836.GA23140@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:48:18PM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >Do U17,U15,U10,U6 perhaps have some solder bridges, or is that just some >flux hanging around? It's flux, but thanks for the heads-up! I went over everything with liquid-flux-soaked solder-wick and a stereo microscope ... there were a ton of solder bridges before. Scrubbing the board in alcohol and then water gets 99% of the flux off, but turns the remainder white. Now I've scraped most of it out with a razor blade. Also, I think I have ninjas. Cooking this board let out an unusually large cloud of vile rosin smoke, and until I aired the house out, there were weird thumps and bumps coming from every corner but there was nothing there when I turned to look. John Wilson D Bit From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 22:31:36 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:31:36 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL Message-ID: I'll be picking up a huge lot of DEC and some DG keyboards( no part numbers yet) over the next few days. I know what some of the DEC gear is and the condition of it, but not of the VTs. I would expect some power supply problems, but have no idea of tube rot/burn or cosmetics, except that all are complete. I don't really want to have to ship any, but I have reached out to one list member and will ship to him any possibly others. Boxing them, putting them in a gaylord and putting them on a pallet is the best I can come up with. This will be costly and labor intense, and if I have to ship, with one exception, I would prefer 4 to 6 units at a time. When I get home in a week or so I'll be putting out a list of unibus options which include the backplane and boards- like DB11-A bus repeater, DR11B, DH11s, a lot of com options, RH11, etc. Any questions, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 22:42:30 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 20:42:30 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? Message-ID: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> Hey all -- Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and rather burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 in the printsets on Bitsavers (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP00897_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf) Everything else looked OK physically; I replaced the obviously bad capacitor at C4. When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something working. Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more difficult, especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice design :). Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) has no effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all the wiring and everything looks OK. Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal circuitry (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes sense if C4 died and took a couple of things with it (or if something else died and took C4 with it). Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed that there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are missing from my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some point -- there are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this would have been done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this board (a few wires and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that if I just put four new diodes in that it won't cause other problems. Anyone know if there were other revision levels of the bias/interface board that would have done away with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to compare? (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to the supply...) Thanks as always, Josh From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 9 23:05:13 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:05:13 -0500 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010025836.GA23140@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> <56187C72.6000509@charter.net> <20151010025836.GA23140@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <56188E79.7010203@charter.net> On 10/9/2015 9:58 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:48:18PM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Do U17,U15,U10,U6 perhaps have some solder bridges, or is that just some >> flux hanging around? > > It's flux, but thanks for the heads-up! I went over everything with > liquid-flux-soaked solder-wick and a stereo microscope ... there were a > ton of solder bridges before. Scrubbing the board in alcohol and then > water gets 99% of the flux off, but turns the remainder white. Now I've > scraped most of it out with a razor blade. > > Also, I think I have ninjas. Cooking this board let out an unusually > large cloud of vile rosin smoke, and until I aired the house out, there > were weird thumps and bumps coming from every corner but there was > nothing there when I turned to look. > Maybe they were the "ghosts" from the latest episode of Dr. Who? ;) Either that, or the squirrels in the attic really don't like rosin smoke. ;;) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 9 23:13:36 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 23:13:36 -0500 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56189070.1040405@charter.net> On 10/9/2015 10:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal > circuitry (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes > sense if C4 died and took a couple of things with it (or if something > else died and took C4 with it). > > Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and > transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed > that there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are > missing from my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some > point -- there are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this > would have been done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this > board (a few wires and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that > if I just put four new diodes in that it won't cause other problems. > Anyone know if there were other revision levels of the bias/interface > board that would have done away with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 > they can easily crack open to compare? (It's actually relatively easy > to get to, if you can get to the supply...) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > I have an HP drive (RK05 type packs) whose startup power supply had been tampered with in very odd ways - missing parts, etc. (and maybe even blown out circuit board traces - I forget - I haven't worked on that drive in years). I seem to recall that it looked like it had failed catastrophically at some point. I ended up wiring in a 24V stand alone supply temporarily as a startup supply and got the rest of the supply going that way. Maybe someone did something similar with your supply, and then ran out of time / gave up. Perhaps they clipped the diodes out to test them. I have an 11/40 and an 11/45, so I probably have an H7140 (but I don't seem to have a spare anywhere, which surprises me a little, because I got parts of another 11/40 at one point), but I recall that the things are nightmare-ishly heavy to mount, and there is only one of me, so unless the area in question is visible without taking the supply out of the rack, I doubt that I can help very quickly. JRJ From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 23:22:20 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:22:20 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <56189070.1040405@charter.net> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> <56189070.1040405@charter.net> Message-ID: <5618927C.4000004@gmail.com> On 10/9/15 9:13 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/9/2015 10:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal >> circuitry (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes >> sense if C4 died and took a couple of things with it (or if something >> else died and took C4 with it). >> >> Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and >> transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed >> that there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are >> missing from my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some >> point -- there are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this >> would have been done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this >> board (a few wires and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that >> if I just put four new diodes in that it won't cause other problems. >> Anyone know if there were other revision levels of the bias/interface >> board that would have done away with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 >> they can easily crack open to compare? (It's actually relatively easy >> to get to, if you can get to the supply...) >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> > I have an HP drive (RK05 type packs) whose startup power supply had been > tampered with in very odd ways - missing parts, etc. (and maybe even > blown out circuit board traces - I forget - I haven't worked on that > drive in years). I seem to recall that it looked like it had failed > catastrophically at some point. I ended up wiring in a 24V stand > alone supply temporarily as a startup supply and got the rest of the > supply going that way. Maybe someone did something similar with your > supply, and then ran out of time / gave up. Perhaps they clipped the > diodes out to test them. > > I have an 11/40 and an 11/45, so I probably have an H7140 (but I don't > seem to have a spare anywhere, which surprises me a little, because I > got parts of another 11/40 at one point), but I recall that the things > are nightmare-ishly heavy to mount, and there is only one of me, so > unless the area in question is visible without taking the supply out of > the rack, I doubt that I can help very quickly. Oh crap -- I just noticed that the subject line says 11/40; it's supposed to be *11/44*. Fingers faster than brain (as is usually the case.) As you may imagine, the 11/44 has a completely different supply than the 11/40... - Josh > > JRJ > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 23:22:59 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:22:59 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561892A3.50600@gmail.com> And as I just noted after Jay's response, the subject line should say "11/44" not "11/40." Corrected... - Josh On 10/9/15 8:42 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, > this time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > > I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a > capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and > rather burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 > in the printsets on Bitsavers > (http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP00897_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf) > Everything else looked OK physically; I replaced the obviously bad > capacitor at C4. > > When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the > relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should > happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on > the lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something > working. Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more > difficult, especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice > design :). > > Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) > has no effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all > the wiring and everything looks OK. > > Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal > circuitry (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes > sense if C4 died and took a couple of things with it (or if something > else died and took C4 with it). > > Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes > and transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I > noticed that there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic > that are missing from my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them > out at some point -- there are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not > sure why this would have been done, but there were a number of ECOs > applied to this board (a few wires and resistors added) and I don't > want to assume that if I just put four new diodes in that it won't > cause other problems. Anyone know if there were other revision levels > of the bias/interface board that would have done away with these > diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to compare? > (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to the > supply...) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 23:32:08 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:32:08 -0700 Subject: Symbolics MCD-405 tape drive / Georgens Industries In-Reply-To: References: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <561894C8.5010206@gmail.com> On 10/8/15 3:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Al Kossow > wrote: > > Does anyone have a loose 3M/Georgens MCD-405 tape drive they could > take board pictures > and firmware dumps from, or any of the other MCD-40 series tape > drives? I'm trying to > figure out how similar it is to the one in the Apple 40mb tape drive. > > > I believe I have one in my XL1200, I will check tonight. > > - Josh So, I'm a day late, but here are some pictures: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/3m/ If this is the right drive, and if you need the EPROM dumped, let me know and I'll take care of it this weekend. - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Oct 9 23:35:49 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:35:49 -0700 Subject: MEM11 status update Message-ID: <561895A5.6060806@shiresoft.com> I wanted to let folks know what the current status is on the MEM11 project. I apologize in advance for the long post. Previously I had mentioned that the emulator was fully functional (more on that later) and that I was starting to debug the MEM11 firmware. I have made significant progress and I'm in the final stages of testing the recovery image firmware and the configuration image firmware. In reality, the recovery image firmware is a heavily stripped down version of the configuration image firmware - I had to make space for all of the strings, in the configuration image the strings are kept in FRAM. This usually means that I can do most of the testing in the configuration image and (with a few exceptions) I'm assured that it'll work properly in the recovery image. The recovery image is what will be in the J1's RAM (in the FPGA) after reset. It is also the "cold boot" loader. Depending upon configuration settings and a couple of jumpers, it looks for a version of firmware to run. Recall that there are up to 5 copies of the firmware: 2 copies of the "run time" firmware, this is what makes the MEM11 a set of Unibus devices 2 copies of the "configuration" firmware, this allows you to configure the board, load new firmware, load/save memory, ROM images and RS11 disk images 1 copy of the "configuration" firmware that is deemed "safe". This copy cannot be updated except by the recovery image The recovery image is part of the FPGA programming so it cannot be updated in the field. The recovery and configuration images support the XMODEM protocol for uploading/downloading FRAM contents. I'm going through and exhaustively testing all of the command and checking that they produce the proper results and leave no extraneous bits on the stack(s). I haven't been able to do any testing on the XMODEM command yet because I don't have support in the emulator for connecting other programs to the console. So once all of the other commands have been tested, I'm going to extend the emulator to handle some other devices. I'm also going to add some scripting capabilities. I'm getting really tired of typing some commands (the first 3 in the session below are burned into my brain). It should also allow me to provide some capability to emulate the Unibus side of things once I get to the point of testing out the runtime firmware. Here's a short session on using the emulator: $ gforth emulator/j1-emulator.fs J1> mode status 0008 J1> load 60000 mem11-cfg.img J1> get j1-boot-ram.img J1> run MEM11 Recovery Interface MEM11 Firmware Version 0.4 (EMUL) RECOVERY> help Commands: BOOT Boot selected image CLEAR Clear specified memory region DUMP Dump out a section of FRAM MAP Display FRAM address map MODIFY Modifies contents of FRAM VERSION Display version RESET Perform a HW reset XMODEM Download into FRAM using XMODEM protocol SET Set configuration information SHOW Show configuration information Additional help: HELP RECOVERY> boot safe MEM11 Command and Configuration Interface MEM11 Firmware Version 0.3 (EMUL) SAFE> help Commands: BOOT Boot selected image CLEAR Clear specified memory region DUMP Dump out a section of FRAM ENABLE Enable indicated UNIBUS device DISABLE Disable indicated UNIBUS device EXAMINE Examine J1's RAM LIST Lists names of images MAP Display FRAM address map MODIFY Modifies contents of FRAM POKE Change J1's RAM VERSION Display version RESET Perform a HW reset XMODEM Download into FRAM using XMODEM protocol SET Set configuration information SHOW Show configuration information Additional help: HELP SAFE> set defaults SAFE> show dl11 0 ENABLED SLOT: 3 CSR: 777560 LENGTH: 000010 INT VECTOR: 060 INT PRIORITY: BG4 BAUD RATE: 9600 PARITY: NONE DATA BITS: 8 STOP BITS: 1 SAFE> show memory ENABLED BASE ADDR: 000000 LENGTH: 760000 SAFE> show kw11l DISABLED SLOT: 7 CSR: 777540 LENGTH: 000010 INT VECTOR: 100 INT PRIORITY: BG6 LINE FREQ: 16667 uS SAFE> list boot-image 0 : 1 : 2 : 3 : B SAFE : MEM11 Config V0.3 (EMUL) Built on Fri Oct 9 20:18:31 PDT 2015 SAFE> Execution Stopped at: PC: 016C J1> help Commands: HELP - Help command DUMP - Examine the contents of FRAM MODIFY - Modify the contents of FRAM EXAMINE - Examine the contents of J1 RAM PATCH - Modify the contents of J1 RAM CLEAR - Clear the contents of FRAM LOAD - Load FRAM from a file SAVE - Save FRAM into a file GET - Load J1 RAM from a file QUIT - Exit the emulator RUN - Run the J1 program STEP - Single step the next J1 instruction BREAKPOINT - Set a breakpoint CONTINUE - Continue J1 execution .R - Dump the J1 return stack .S - Dump the J1 data stack .PC - Display the current J1 program counter DEPTH - Report the depth of the J1 data and return stacks TRACE - Control tracing of J1 instructions RESET - Reset J1 and the emulated peripherals MODE - Set or view the MEM11 mode LED - Display the LEDs that would appear on a MEM11 board Typing 'HELP ' will give additional details about the command J1> .s DSP: 5 ST0: 0005 Data Stack: 5 : 0000 4 : 1E1E 3 : 1E6E 2 : 1E1E 1 : 0000 J1> .r RSP: 6 Return Stack: 6 : 0D84 5 : 0D4A 4 : 0D7E 3 : 1C1A 2 : 3B26 1 : 3BB2 J1> From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 10 01:51:51 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 02:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system In-Reply-To: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> References: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > SYS_CRAYHOST="wopr" > :-) > -- > Chris Elmquist :-) Long gone, but probably some of my favorite boxes were Papa Smurf and Smurfette: http://imgur.com/a/C2rGj (The big blue Challenge XLs) Other computers long gone in the pics as well, from the tinkering over the years! Was a big SGI fanboy. -- Ethan O'Toole From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 02:31:31 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 08:31:31 +0100 Subject: WTT: My Amiga Mouse for your Atari ST Mouse! In-Reply-To: <1AB0F034-FEC0-46CA-AFCB-D59089E51E17@aracnet.com> References: <1AB0F034-FEC0-46CA-AFCB-D59089E51E17@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <006901d1032d$afcc2ba0$0f6482e0$@gmail.com> They were switchable. There are some USB adaptors on Ebay... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy > Sent: 10 October 2015 01:18 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: WTT: My Amiga Mouse for your Atari ST Mouse! > > FYI, you used to be able to get a mouse that would work on either Atari or > Amiga. I don't know if you still can. There are people that specialize in selling > Atari gear. > > Zane > > > > On Oct 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > Looking for an Atari ST mouse, have an extra Amiga mouse to trade? > > > > Also looking to buy a 520ST power supply to complete a system if anyone > knows of extras. > > > > > > > > -- > > Ethan O'Toole > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 10 04:15:34 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:15:34 +0000 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? Message-ID: > > Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this > time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: That doesn't surprise me, the H7140 is one of the most complex PSUs you are likely to come across... > When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the > relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should > happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the > lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something > working. Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more > difficult, especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice > design :). That 300-odd volts comes from rectified (or voltage-doubled) mains. The relay is part of the soft-start circuit, it should operate after the 'bias' PSU has started up (it shorts out a resistor in the mains input circuit). With no other load on the supply you will get the 300V with the resistor still in circuit. There are _3_ SMPSUs in that box. One for the logic, one for the memory and one (known as 'Bias' in the DEC documentation) to power the control circuits, PSU control logic, etc. The last one is a relatively conventional SMPSU, it sounds like it isn't working. It's nasty in that almost all the circuitry is on the mains side of the isolation barrier, and an isolating transformer is almost essential when working on it. The chopper transformer is on the PSIU baseboard, the chopper transistor and much of the control circuity is on the 'Bias/Interface' PCB (leftmost board in the PSU box). Be warned, therefore that some circuitry on this board is not isolated from the mains. I would start by seeing if the 12V (and 5V?) from the 'Bias supply' are missing. -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 10 04:58:49 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:58:49 +0200 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5618E159.8060703@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-10 03:38, John Wilson wrote: > This may never see the light of day (if the prototype turns out to be > stillborn) but it's pretty and I can't resist posting a pic before I've > powered it on and proven its uselessness: > > http://www.dbit.com/wilson/projects/qba.jpg Crazy amounts of passive components on it. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 10 05:45:43 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 05:45:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010025836.GA23140@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> <56187C72.6000509@charter.net> <20151010025836.GA23140@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2015, John Wilson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:48:18PM -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> Do U17,U15,U10,U6 perhaps have some solder bridges, or is that just >> some flux hanging around? > > It's flux, but thanks for the heads-up! I went over everything with > liquid-flux-soaked solder-wick and a stereo microscope ... there were a > ton of solder bridges before. Scrubbing the board in alcohol and then > water gets 99% of the flux off, but turns the remainder white. Now I've > scraped most of it out with a razor blade. > > Also, I think I have ninjas. Cooking this board let out an unusually > large cloud of vile rosin smoke, and until I aired the house out, there > were weird thumps and bumps coming from every corner but there was > nothing there when I turned to look. Was your solder paste too old perhaps? I generally use a liquid RMA type flux from Kester or Alpha since I mainly do hand assembly/rework, however I have had issues in the past removing residues from certain "no-clean" fluxes. My own cleaning technique is usually an initial scrub with a plastic bristle brush continually re-wetted with clean isopropyl from a dispenser pump bottle. After getting all the flux deposits loose, and not letting the board dry in between, I rinse with either isopropyl or water from a wash bottle over a glass tray. If any residue remains, a second cleaning almost always seems to get rid of it. One important thing I have noticed though is not to let flux sit on the board for too long. As the solvent carriers in it evaporate, it hardens up more and more which makes it all the more difficult to clean. After a few days to a week, it takes a lot more work to get the flux residue off. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 06:15:22 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:15:22 +0200 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2015-10-10 5:42 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch : > Hey all -- > > First of all I haven't poked around in the PSU of my 11/44 since it worked fine when powered up. But the design of the H7140 is a lot similar to the design of the H7104, the PSU of the VAX-11/750 which I worked quite a lot with. http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 > Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this > time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > > I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a > capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and rather > burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 in the > printsets on Bitsavers ( > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP00897_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf) > Everything else looked OK physically; I replaced the obviously bad > capacitor at C4. > > When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the > relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should > happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the > lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something working. > Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more difficult, > especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice design :). > The previous owner said that it happens that the relays get stuck. The relay is there to limit the inrush current so when it clicks it bypasses a couple of power resistors. Regardless relay state you will have the full voltage over the capacitors. (at least this is the case in the H7104). If the relay get stuck then the power resistors get very hot. The relay drive circuit detects that the voltage is high enough then turns on the relay. Maybe something in this circuitry is bad. In this case you could force it to on but then I think you should power it from a variac > Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) has no > effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all the wiring > and everything looks OK. > Have you verified that you have the 12V BIAS voltage? If not you could probably generate the 12V BIAS voltage using a lab power supply just to see if the main switcher is working properly. I used an insulation transformer and a variac and then forced the relay drive to on. In the H7104 the same circuitry also enabled the main switcher so unless I did this there were no fun at all. I supplied 12V using a bench supply. It made it possible to check everything was working ok without any high voltages. > > Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal circuitry > (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes sense if C4 died > and took a couple of things with it (or if something else died and took C4 > with it). > > Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and > transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed that > there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are missing from > my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some point -- there > are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this would have been > done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this board (a few wires > and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that if I just put four new > diodes in that it won't cause other problems. Anyone know if there were > other revision levels of the bias/interface board that would have done away > with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to > compare? (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to the > supply...) > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 10:18:35 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 08:18:35 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 10, 2015, at 2:15 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this >> time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > > That doesn't surprise me, the H7140 is one of the most complex PSUs you are > likely to come across... > >> When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the >> relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should >> happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the >> lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something >> working. Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more >> difficult, especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice >> design :). > > That 300-odd volts comes from rectified (or voltage-doubled) mains. The > relay is part of the soft-start circuit, it should operate after the 'bias' PSU > has started up (it shorts out a resistor in the mains input circuit). With no > other load on the supply you will get the 300V with the resistor still in circuit. > > There are _3_ SMPSUs in that box. One for the logic, one for the memory and > one (known as 'Bias' in the DEC documentation) to power the control circuits, > PSU control logic, etc. The last one is a relatively conventional SMPSU, it sounds > like it isn't working. It's nasty in that almost all the circuitry is on the mains side of > the isolation barrier, and an isolating transformer is almost essential when working > on it. The chopper transformer is on the PSIU baseboard, the chopper transistor > and much of the control circuity is on the 'Bias/Interface' PCB (leftmost board in the > PSU box). Be warned, therefore that some circuitry on this board is not isolated > from the mains. > > I would start by seeing if the 12V (and 5V?) from the 'Bias supply' are missing. > Thanks for the background and the tips, I?ll do some debugging. Any thoughts on the ?missing" diodes (D1-D4) on the bias board that I mentioned? - Josh > -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Oct 10 10:38:45 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:38:45 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151010013853.GA21257@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2015, at 9:38 PM, John Wilson wrote: > > ... it's > supposed to be a Q-bus bridge that connects over Ethernet), but I wanted to > still be able to do something fun in the very likely case that the Ethernet > port doesn't work (no idea if my PCB layout is kosher for something as fast > as the gigabit PHY's bus) or has uselessly high latency, ... Neat. Did you check the PHY latency for GigE? I know it's insanely large for 10G-BaseT, but I don't remember if GigE is still reasonable. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Oct 10 10:44:58 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:44:58 -0400 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2015, at 5:39 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > John Robertson asked: >>> After the fiasco about the Deibold machines changing votes during the >>> Bush election of 2000, Brazil opted for them? > > To which Alexandre Souza replied: >> Yep. Welcome to the land of the stupid. > > Ok, I think we need some facts, here. Note that from the very first time > I used one of these machines to vote and noted that they typed in my > voter ID number using a little keyboard which had a cable going into the > voting "cabin" to prep the machine for my vote, my opinion of the whole > thing has be very negative. After all, I had only their word that they > were not saving my ID along with my vote - there was no hardware > limitation against it doing this. That's not the real problem. The real problem is that you had no way to be sure, no way to verify, that the machine was recording your vote and would accurately report it later. It might just as easily report numbers that someone had told it to report, not connected to any reality. How would you know? If anyone were to question this, how would you prove that the count is honest? paul From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 10:45:59 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 08:45:59 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69744983-D43E-495F-8B5B-461C1AA89172@gmail.com> > On Oct 10, 2015, at 4:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2015-10-10 5:42 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch >: > >> Hey all -- >> >> > First of all I haven't poked around in the PSU of my 11/44 since it worked > fine when powered up. But the design of the H7140 is a lot similar to the > design of the H7104, the PSU of the VAX-11/750 which I worked quite a lot > with. > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 > > >> Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this >> time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: >> >> I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a >> capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and rather >> burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 in the >> printsets on Bitsavers ( >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP00897_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf) >> Everything else looked OK physically; I replaced the obviously bad >> capacitor at C4. >> >> When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the >> relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should >> happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the >> lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something working. >> Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more difficult, >> especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice design :). >> > > The previous owner said that it happens that the relays get stuck. The > relay is there to limit the inrush current so when it clicks it bypasses a > couple of power resistors. Regardless relay state you will have the full > voltage over the capacitors. (at least this is the case in the H7104). If > the relay get stuck then the power resistors get very hot. The relay drive > circuit detects that the voltage is high enough then turns on the relay. > Maybe something in this circuitry is bad. In this case you could force it > to on but then I think you should power it from a variac Thanks. I should have mentioned, but I tested out the relay and it?s not stuck and seems to be working fine. It definitely looks like the relay control circuitry is not running properly. > > > >> Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) has no >> effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all the wiring >> and everything looks OK. >> > > Have you verified that you have the 12V BIAS voltage? If not you could > probably generate the 12V BIAS voltage using a lab power supply just to see > if the main switcher is working properly. > > I used an insulation transformer and a variac and then forced the relay > drive to on. In the H7104 the same circuitry also enabled the main switcher > so unless I did this there were no fun at all. I supplied 12V using a bench > supply. It made it possible to check everything was working ok without any > high voltages. Interesting idea, I?ll look into that. Thanks! - Josh > > >> >> Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal circuitry >> (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes sense if C4 died >> and took a couple of things with it (or if something else died and took C4 >> with it). >> >> Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and >> transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed that >> there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are missing from >> my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some point -- there >> are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this would have been >> done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this board (a few wires >> and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that if I just put four new >> diodes in that it won't cause other problems. Anyone know if there were >> other revision levels of the bias/interface board that would have done away >> with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to >> compare? (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to the >> supply...) >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 17:53:36 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:53:36 -0600 Subject: UNIBUS RAM with Parity vs. None In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Anyone disagree, and if so why did DEC want their 11/05 S to use "D" model > core (D=parity) and not C (C=no parity)? The PDP 11/40 I have uses C. The H217D is the no-parity plane, and the H217C has parity. For the parity to do anything useful, you have to also have an M7259 module, and IIRC the 11/05 backplane is not wired for it. From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 11:09:35 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:09:35 -0500 Subject: Identification of IBM SMS backplanes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found some IBM parts recently. Any idea what specifically these might have come out of? I'll be picking them up soon and getting more pictures, but here's a few for now. http://imgur.com/a/pikqG Thanks, Kyle From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 10 12:14:42 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:14:42 +0100 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <69744983-D43E-495F-8B5B-461C1AA89172@gmail.com> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> <69744983-D43E-495F-8B5B-461C1AA89172@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0da001d1037f$27d0f2b0$7772d810$@ntlworld.com> If I remember correctly I had a problem in this area that turned out to be a loose/dry joint where the two thermistors that are across the relay joined together. In my case it was an intermittent fault though. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: 10 October 2015 16:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? > > > > On Oct 10, 2015, at 4:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > 2015-10-10 5:42 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch >: > > > >> Hey all -- > >> > >> > > First of all I haven't poked around in the PSU of my 11/44 since it > > worked fine when powered up. But the design of the H7140 is a lot > > similar to the design of the H7104, the PSU of the VAX-11/750 which I > > worked quite a lot with. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax- > > 11-750 > > > -11-750> > > > > > >> Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, > >> this time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > >> > >> I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a > >> capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and > >> rather burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 > >> in the printsets on Bitsavers ( > >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP008 > >> 97_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf) Everything else looked OK physically; I > >> replaced the obviously bad capacitor at C4. > >> > >> When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") > >> the relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this > >> should happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure > >> 308VDC on the lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least > something working. > >> Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more difficult, > >> especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice design :). > >> > > > > The previous owner said that it happens that the relays get stuck. The > > relay is there to limit the inrush current so when it clicks it > > bypasses a couple of power resistors. Regardless relay state you will > > have the full voltage over the capacitors. (at least this is the case > > in the H7104). If the relay get stuck then the power resistors get > > very hot. The relay drive circuit detects that the voltage is high enough then > turns on the relay. > > Maybe something in this circuitry is bad. In this case you could force > > it to on but then I think you should power it from a variac > > Thanks. I should have mentioned, but I tested out the relay and it?s not stuck > and seems to be working fine. It definitely looks like the relay control circuitry > is not running properly. > > > > > > > > >> Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) > >> has no effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all > >> the wiring and everything looks OK. > >> > > > > Have you verified that you have the 12V BIAS voltage? If not you could > > probably generate the 12V BIAS voltage using a lab power supply just > > to see if the main switcher is working properly. > > > > I used an insulation transformer and a variac and then forced the > > relay drive to on. In the H7104 the same circuitry also enabled the > > main switcher so unless I did this there were no fun at all. I > > supplied 12V using a bench supply. It made it possible to check > > everything was working ok without any high voltages. > > Interesting idea, I?ll look into that. Thanks! > > - Josh > > > > > > > >> > >> Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal > >> circuitry (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes > >> sense if C4 died and took a couple of things with it (or if something > >> else died and took C4 with it). > >> > >> Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes > >> and transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I > >> noticed that there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic > >> that are missing from my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them > >> out at some point -- there are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not > >> sure why this would have been done, but there were a number of ECOs > >> applied to this board (a few wires and resistors added) and I don't > >> want to assume that if I just put four new diodes in that it won't > >> cause other problems. Anyone know if there were other revision > >> levels of the bias/interface board that would have done away with > >> these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to > >> compare? (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to > >> the > >> supply...) > >> > >> Thanks as always, > >> Josh From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 12:32:52 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:32:52 +0200 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: l?rdag 10 oktober 2015 skrev Josh Dersch : > > > On Oct 10, 2015, at 2:15 AM, tony duell > wrote: > > > >> > >> Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this > >> time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > > > > That doesn't surprise me, the H7140 is one of the most complex PSUs you > are > > likely to come across... > > > >> When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the > >> relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should > >> happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the > >> lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something > >> working. Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more > >> difficult, especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice > >> design :). > > > > That 300-odd volts comes from rectified (or voltage-doubled) mains. The > > relay is part of the soft-start circuit, it should operate after the > 'bias' PSU > > has started up (it shorts out a resistor in the mains input circuit). > With no > > other load on the supply you will get the 300V with the resistor still > in circuit. > > > > There are _3_ SMPSUs in that box. One for the logic, one for the memory > and > > one (known as 'Bias' in the DEC documentation) to power the control > circuits, > > PSU control logic, etc. The last one is a relatively conventional SMPSU, > it sounds > > like it isn't working. It's nasty in that almost all the circuitry is on > the mains side of > > the isolation barrier, and an isolating transformer is almost essential > when working > > on it. The chopper transformer is on the PSIU baseboard, the chopper > transistor > > and much of the control circuity is on the 'Bias/Interface' PCB > (leftmost board in the > > PSU box). Be warned, therefore that some circuitry on this board is not > isolated > > from the mains. > > > > I would start by seeing if the 12V (and 5V?) from the 'Bias supply' are > missing. > > > > Thanks for the background and the tips, I?ll do some debugging. Any > thoughts on the ?missing" diodes (D1-D4) on the bias board that I mentioned? > > >From a quick glance at the schematic I think that this part is related to the fan driving circuitry. The diodes look like some kind of protection diodes which is good to have when switching inductive loads. I have really no idea why they have been removed. But I don't think it is related to the PSU not working at all. /Mattis > - Josh > > > > -tony > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 10 12:37:46 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:37:46 -0500 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56194CEA.4020306@pico-systems.com> On 10/10/2015 10:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > That's not the real problem. The real problem is that you had no way to be sure, no way to verify, that the machine was recording your vote and would accurately report it later. It might just as easily report numbers that someone had told it to report, not connected to any reality. How would you know? If anyone were to question this, how would you prove that the count is honest? > > An election official in Ohio, I think, not an IT guy at all, just somebody who knew how to open files, etc, played around with a touch screen machine at his precinct. I THINK it was the original Diebold machine, but I could be wrong on that. I think he plugged in a USB cable or something, and found the vote totals were just an open file on a memory card, and could be opened and edited with standard Windows tools like notepad! He went public with it, and it caused a pretty large furor over this blatant lack of security. The manufacturer of the machine had told the state that all files were encrypted, you had to log on with a password, etc. etc. and it was all lies. You should be able to search for articles in the press about this. Jon From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 12:41:22 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:41:22 +0200 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/40) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <69744983-D43E-495F-8B5B-461C1AA89172@gmail.com> References: <56188926.4020606@gmail.com> <69744983-D43E-495F-8B5B-461C1AA89172@gmail.com> Message-ID: l?rdag 10 oktober 2015 skrev Josh Dersch : > > > On Oct 10, 2015, at 4:15 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > > 2015-10-10 5:42 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch > >>: > > > >> Hey all -- > >> > >> > > First of all I haven't poked around in the PSU of my 11/44 since it > worked > > fine when powered up. But the design of the H7140 is a lot similar to the > > design of the H7104, the PSU of the VAX-11/750 which I worked quite a lot > > with. > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 > < > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 > > > > > > > >> Once again, I find myself in over my head debugging a power supply, this > >> time an H7140 from a PDP-11/44. Here's the skinny: > >> > >> I examined the supply physically before experimenting and found a > >> capacitor on the Bias/Interface board that was leaking, bursting and > rather > >> burned-out looking (not a great sign) -- this is capacitor C4 in the > >> printsets on Bitsavers ( > >> > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/MP00897_11X44sys_Dec79.pdf > ) > >> Everything else looked OK physically; I replaced the obviously bad > >> capacitor at C4. > >> > >> When power is applied (plugged in, breaker switch flipped to "On") the > >> relay does not click - based on my readings of the manuals this should > >> happen after the bias voltages are up to spec. I measure 308VDC on the > >> lugs on the top of the memory board, so that's at least something > working. > >> Getting to other points to test voltages is a bit more difficult, > >> especially with those high voltages in the way, what a nice design :). > >> > > > > The previous owner said that it happens that the relays get stuck. The > > relay is there to limit the inrush current so when it clicks it bypasses > a > > couple of power resistors. Regardless relay state you will have the full > > voltage over the capacitors. (at least this is the case in the H7104). If > > the relay get stuck then the power resistors get very hot. The relay > drive > > circuit detects that the voltage is high enough then turns on the relay. > > Maybe something in this circuitry is bad. In this case you could force it > > to on but then I think you should power it from a variac > > Thanks. I should have mentioned, but I tested out the relay and it?s not > stuck and seems to be working fine. It definitely looks like the relay > control circuitry is not running properly. > > > > > > > > >> Switching the front panel switch to "Local" (or any other position) has > no > >> effect -- no fans, no LEDs, nothing. I've double-checked all the wiring > >> and everything looks OK. > >> > > > > Have you verified that you have the 12V BIAS voltage? If not you could > > probably generate the 12V BIAS voltage using a lab power supply just to > see > > if the main switcher is working properly. > > > > I used an insulation transformer and a variac and then forced the relay > > drive to on. In the H7104 the same circuitry also enabled the main > switcher > > so unless I did this there were no fun at all. I supplied 12V using a > bench > > supply. It made it possible to check everything was working ok without > any > > high voltages. > > Interesting idea, I?ll look into that. Thanks! Looking yet another time at the schematic it is evident that a lot of signal is relying on E5 collector beeing low. If the monitor circuit is broken or not high enough voltage in (since you are running it off a variac) you will not have this signal. To test I would ground this and run it with a variac. /Mattis > - Josh > > > > > > > >> > >> Capacitor C4 looks to be involved with the START-UP DRIVE signal > circuitry > >> (which drives the relay) so the behavior I'm seeing makes sense if C4 > died > >> and took a couple of things with it (or if something else died and took > C4 > >> with it). > >> > >> Here's where it gets kind of odd -- I spent some time testing diodes and > >> transistors in the related area near C4 and while doing so I noticed > that > >> there are four diodes (D1-D4) listed on the schematic that are missing > from > >> my board. "Missing" as in someone clipped them out at some point -- > there > >> are just nubs of the leads left. I'm not sure why this would have been > >> done, but there were a number of ECOs applied to this board (a few wires > >> and resistors added) and I don't want to assume that if I just put four > new > >> diodes in that it won't cause other problems. Anyone know if there were > >> other revision levels of the bias/interface board that would have done > away > >> with these diodes? Anyone have an H7140 they can easily crack open to > >> compare? (It's actually relatively easy to get to, if you can get to > the > >> supply...) > >> > >> Thanks as always, > >> Josh > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 10 14:14:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:14:46 -0700 Subject: Symbolics MCD-405 tape drive / Georgens Industries In-Reply-To: <561894C8.5010206@gmail.com> References: <5616B2BA.9000907@bitsavers.org> <561894C8.5010206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561963A6.9050302@bitsavers.org> On 10/9/15 9:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 10/8/15 3:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Al Kossow > wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a loose 3M/Georgens MCD-405 tape drive they could >> take board pictures >> and firmware dumps from, or any of the other MCD-40 series tape >> drives? I'm trying to >> figure out how similar it is to the one in the Apple 40mb tape drive. >> >> >> I believe I have one in my XL1200, I will check tonight. >> >> - Josh > > So, I'm a day late, but here are some pictures: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/3m/ > > If this is the right drive, and if you need the EPROM dumped, let me know and I'll take care of it this weekend. > > - Josh > It would be good to get the firmware dumped ...hmmm just looked at the pics I have of the Apple drive and the firmware part number is identical! Now that I think about it, someone on a lisp list from SRI said they USED an Apple tape drive on an XL! I'm sure that is good news for anyone trying to read Symbolics tapes. The Apple drives are easier to find but you'll have to fix the pinch roller. It looks like the roller on your drive is made from a different material. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 14:16:46 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:16:46 -0400 Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system In-Reply-To: References: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: That is quite an impressive pile of sgi. Do you have any of the big sgi gear around still? I have a bunch of the smaller workstations but have not managed to get any of the bigger desksides. On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:51 AM, wrote: > SYS_CRAYHOST="wopr" >> :-) >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> > > :-) > > Long gone, but probably some of my favorite boxes were Papa Smurf and > Smurfette: > http://imgur.com/a/C2rGj > > (The big blue Challenge XLs) > > Other computers long gone in the pics as well, from the tinkering over the > years! Was a big SGI fanboy. > > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From dab at froghouse.org Sat Oct 10 13:10:25 2015 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:10:25 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project Message-ID: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> Wow. A pretty board indeed. Thanks for showing it off. This is also interesting to me since a friend and I have been talking about building something rather similar (and entirely different at the same time, we're just focusing on the mass storage function and using an FPGA). I'm curious about some things though, if you'd be willing. Bus drivers (along with voltage level conversion) have been a problem. You seem to be using 74LVC parts. Are they close enough? Though I also see a bunch of FETs down there. I've used OSHPark in the past for small boards but for 45 sq.in. boards they'd seem to be awfully expensive, even if using their medium run pricing. The fingers look gold plated. It could be just the ENIG finish but I also see little tails running off the bottom as if you're setup for hard gold plating. Does OSHPark have that capability? I gotta say that I'm impressed with your soldering skill as well as stamina. I was going to ask if it was machine assembled but I see in a later message that it wasn't. I was hoping for the Pick 'n' Paste machine to come along and save me from having to do all that by hand but that project seems to have faded away. I'm curious why you didn't use resistor networks instead of discrete components. I also love that your design tool put omegas on the silk screen for the resistor values. -Dave From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 13:16:45 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:16:45 -0400 Subject: UNIBUS RAM with Parity vs. None In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2015 12:27 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > > > Anyone disagree, and if so why did DEC want their 11/05 S to use "D" model > > core (D=parity) and not C (C=no parity)? The PDP 11/40 I have uses C. > > The H217D is the no-parity plane, and the H217C has parity. > > For the parity to do anything useful, you have to also have an M7259 > module, and IIRC the 11/05 backplane is not wired for it. Thanks. I tried an m7259, no dice, but I need to read the manuals thoroughly as to why and see what changes would be needed. Bummer because the 217d almost works From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 10 16:38:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:38:32 +0000 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > From a quick glance at the schematic I think that this part is related to > the fan driving circuitry. The diodes look like some kind of protection Yes. > diodes which is good to have when switching inductive loads. I have really > no idea why they have been removed. But I don't think it is related to the Remember that said diodes do slow down the decay of the current (and thus the magnetic field) when the transistor turns off (this can be a problem with solenoid drivers for paper tape punches, etc). It is possible that with the diodes in-circuit the fan drive waveforms were not right. > PSU not working at all. Correct. The fan driver is powered by the 36V output of the 'memory' SMPSU, Even if it is defective, the bias supply should run, the logic supplies should come up in the ON position of the key, and so on. That 'bias/interface' PCB contains (at least) the bias supply chopper and control circuit; the fan driver; and the control logic to start the 2 main PSUs in the correct posiitions of the keyswitch, -tony /Mattis > - Josh > > > > -tony > > From chrise at pobox.com Sat Oct 10 19:18:36 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:18:36 -0500 Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system In-Reply-To: References: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151011001836.GZ3072@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (10/10/2015 at 02:51AM -0400), ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Long gone, but probably some of my favorite boxes were Papa Smurf > and Smurfette: > http://imgur.com/a/C2rGj > > (The big blue Challenge XLs) > > Other computers long gone in the pics as well, from the tinkering > over the years! Was a big SGI fanboy. Me too until I worked there :-( -- Chris Elmquist From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 10 19:50:17 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:50:17 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> References: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <5619B249.4020004@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-10 2:10 PM, David Bridgham wrote: > Wow. A pretty board indeed. Thanks for showing it off. This is also > interesting to me since a friend and I have been talking about building > something rather similar (and entirely different at the same time, we're > just focusing on the mass storage function and using an FPGA). I'm ^^ A popular idea. I've been kicking around the same idea with friends for 10 years now. :( Need to find time... --Toby > curious about some things though, if you'd be willing. > > Bus drivers (along with voltage level conversion) have been a problem. > You seem to be using 74LVC parts. Are they close enough? Though I also > see a bunch of FETs down there. > > I've used OSHPark in the past for small boards but for 45 sq.in. boards > they'd seem to be awfully expensive, even if using their medium run > pricing. The fingers look gold plated. It could be just the ENIG > finish but I also see little tails running off the bottom as if you're > setup for hard gold plating. Does OSHPark have that capability? > > I gotta say that I'm impressed with your soldering skill as well as > stamina. I was going to ask if it was machine assembled but I see in a > later message that it wasn't. I was hoping for the Pick 'n' Paste > machine to come along and save me from having to do all that by hand but > that project seems to have faded away. > > I'm curious why you didn't use resistor networks instead of discrete > components. > > I also love that your design tool put omegas on the silk screen for the > resistor values. > > -Dave > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 10 19:57:02 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 01:57:02 +0100 Subject: Dead PET4032 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Tony, On 05/10/2015 16:55, "tony duell" wrote: > And I would be surprised if you got nothing on the screen either. Odd bit > rot would mean the wrong patterns for some characters. But still something. The heater is working in the tube and now that I've got a proper DMM I'm getting the correct AC voltage across pins 9&11 on the transformer. Also the blue and brown pins look OK. > This is presumably a large-screen machine with a 6845 on the mainboard. > Is it initialising that (look at the vertical and horizontal sync outputs with > your logic probe, are they toggling)? No. Only HSYNC is toggling, VSYNC is low. > Is it accessing the kernal ROM? Is the CS/ pin pulsing low? Yes. The others are high. > What about the RAS/ and CAS/ signals on the DRAMs? RAS/ is toggling, CAS/ is high on all chips. VBB is -4.98, VCC is 5.08, VDD is 12.02 >> A lot of the repair pages use a piggyback 6502/ROM/RAM add-in called a >> PETvet but all I have is a DMM, logic tester and other working PETs as >> sources of chips I can borrow. > > I assume the logic tester is a simple logic probe and not a logic analyser, > alas I should receive an 8 channel logic analyser on Monday but for now I'm getting results from the DMM and probe. Socket (empty) for UD11 looks faulty in that it's VCC and GND pins show nothing. Continuity on the others looks OK. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 22:44:00 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:44:00 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > > From a quick glance at the schematic I think that this part is related to > > the fan driving circuitry. The diodes look like some kind of protection > > Yes. > > > diodes which is good to have when switching inductive loads. I have > really > > no idea why they have been removed. But I don't think it is related to > the > > Remember that said diodes do slow down the decay of the current (and thus > the magnetic field) when the transistor turns off (this can be a problem > with > solenoid drivers for paper tape punches, etc). It is possible that with > the diodes > in-circuit the fan drive waveforms were not right. > > > PSU not working at all. > > Correct. The fan driver is powered by the 36V output of the 'memory' SMPSU, > Even if it is defective, the bias supply should run, the logic supplies > should come > up in the ON position of the key, and so on. > > That 'bias/interface' PCB contains (at least) the bias supply chopper and > control > circuit; the fan driver; and the control logic to start the 2 main PSUs in > the correct > posiitions of the keyswitch, > > -tony > > > > /Mattis > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when the H7140 is turned on. I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear where these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram that the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on the backplane...) Thanks, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 22:46:02 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:46:02 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, tony duell > wrote: > >> > >> > From a quick glance at the schematic I think that this part is related >> to >> > the fan driving circuitry. The diodes look like some kind of protection >> >> Yes. >> >> > diodes which is good to have when switching inductive loads. I have >> really >> > no idea why they have been removed. But I don't think it is related to >> the >> >> Remember that said diodes do slow down the decay of the current (and thus >> the magnetic field) when the transistor turns off (this can be a problem >> with >> solenoid drivers for paper tape punches, etc). It is possible that with >> the diodes >> in-circuit the fan drive waveforms were not right. >> >> > PSU not working at all. >> >> Correct. The fan driver is powered by the 36V output of the 'memory' >> SMPSU, >> Even if it is defective, the bias supply should run, the logic supplies >> should come >> up in the ON position of the key, and so on. >> >> That 'bias/interface' PCB contains (at least) the bias supply chopper and >> control >> circuit; the fan driver; and the control logic to start the 2 main PSUs >> in the correct >> posiitions of the keyswitch, >> >> -tony >> >> >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> >> > - Josh >> > >> > >> > > -tony >> > >> > >> > > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to > bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic > supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when > the H7140 is turned on. > > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear > where these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block > diagram that the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) > -- which should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > the backplane...) > > Thanks, > Josh > > > And a quick correction, it's -15V, not +15; I need to proofread more :) - Josh From wilson at dbit.com Sat Oct 10 23:53:16 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 00:53:16 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> References: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <20151011045316.GA26315@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 11:38:45AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >Did you check the PHY latency for GigE? I know it's insanely large for >10G-BaseT, but I don't remember if GigE is still reasonable. I was worried about that, since other PHY data sheets list high-ish numbers (hundreds of nsec) as if that's good news. But I can't find any mention of latency at all on the Micrel data sheet. (I chose this part just for coming in a TQFP package that I can solder.) So I guess I'll just try it. Hopefully if the thing works at all, at least it'll support programmed I/O and interrupts. DMA would be nice but it'll have to have very fast turnaround, which will probably need hardware help on the PC end (and anything for PCIe is a much fancier project -- PEX 8311 or a big FPGA). On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 02:10:25PM -0400, David Bridgham wrote: >Bus drivers (along with voltage level conversion) have been a problem. >You seem to be using 74LVC parts. Are they close enough? Though I also >see a bunch of FETs down there. I'm hoping the 74LVC244s will work for receiving (I've used them for TTL levels before), even if technically they don't follow the bus specs. I have a lifetime stock of DS3862Ns (which do) but I'd rather go RoHS. Yes the drivers are FETs, with gate resistors to slow down the rise/fall times a bit. >I've used OSHPark in the past for small boards but for 45 sq.in. boards >they'd seem to be awfully expensive, even if using their medium run >pricing. Yeah it was $218.75 for three of these. Which is a lot, but then again no it isn't, given the size. And they do such beautiful work... Also I feel bad about all the puny adapter boards they've done for me, where they probably lost money. >The fingers look gold plated. It could be just the ENIG finish but I also >see little tails running off the bottom as if you're setup for hard gold >plating. Does OSHPark have that capability? Not that I know of. This is just ENIG and won't last long. What look like tracks leading off to a plating bar are just me trying to be cute by imitating DEC's finger shapes. >I was hoping for the Pick 'n' Paste machine to come along and save me from >having to do all that by hand but that project seems to have faded away. Oh seriously! I've been hoping one of the homebrew SMT assembly robot projects would "take" too, at a reasonable cost. Making prototypes is bad enough ... but what if I get it working and then I'd want to make dozens of these things, at 4+ hours each? >I'm curious why you didn't use resistor networks instead of discrete >components. In this case I wanted to have FETs to disconnect both legs of each terminator for when the board is being a peripheral (so a bussed R-network wouldn't work), and anyway discrete resistors are cheaper and easier to find in any value and wattage. More sqinches but it's going to be a dual-height whether it's full of parts or not so that's no problem. Has anyone tried active termination on DEC busses? I'm not sure how to make the terminator power supply "weigh" enough to quickly resist pulls in either direction, especially if it's a switcher. >I also love that your design tool put omegas on the silk screen for the >resistor values. It didn't want to! Each one of those is two superimposed strings, one with spaces where the omega goes, and one in the "Symbols" font with the omega (or mu). OCD is its own reward. Well I really do like being able to stuff a board this size w/o looking at the schematic or parts list even once. John Wilson D Bit From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 23:59:08 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:59:08 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay Message-ID: <068d01d103e1$90c4b330$b24e1990$@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wore: >I had that problem with the stuck reel hubs. Failed to take my own advice-to-self to leave the reels unmounted and they stuck again, >although easier to get off this time as it hadn't been many years under pressure. I ended up covering the rubber hub with black electrical tape. That prevents it from sticking again. >I had originally written it in a re-targetable cross-assembler in a now-outdated development environment under MacOS9. > Last year rewrote someone else's assembler (C source) - it should work in any standard C environment. > Was using it to re-assemble HPBASIC. > [...] Can send you the source if you wish. I'll gladly take the source, that would be very helpful later on. Marc From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 02:02:27 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 09:02:27 +0200 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-10-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 Josh Dersch : > On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, tony duell > wrote: > > > > > > > From a quick glance at the schematic I think that this part is related > to > > > the fan driving circuitry. The diodes look like some kind of protection > > > > Yes. > > > > > diodes which is good to have when switching inductive loads. I have > > really > > > no idea why they have been removed. But I don't think it is related to > > the > > > > Remember that said diodes do slow down the decay of the current (and thus > > the magnetic field) when the transistor turns off (this can be a problem > > with > > solenoid drivers for paper tape punches, etc). It is possible that with > > the diodes > > in-circuit the fan drive waveforms were not right. > > > > > PSU not working at all. > > > > Correct. The fan driver is powered by the 36V output of the 'memory' > SMPSU, > > Even if it is defective, the bias supply should run, the logic supplies > > should come > > up in the ON position of the key, and so on. > > > > That 'bias/interface' PCB contains (at least) the bias supply chopper and > > control > > circuit; the fan driver; and the control logic to start the 2 main PSUs > in > > the correct > > posiitions of the keyswitch, > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to > bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic > supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when > the H7140 is turned on. > > Then I would check the circuitry on page 3 of the schematic on the bias board. Use a insulation transformer (and possibly a variac) and check voltages here. Does the 555 has supply voltage? Does the 16.5V zener operate correctly? Is Q6 ok? If yes, is there a waveform on 3 of the 555? What is the signal like on base Q1? Collector Q1? (probably nothing since you don't have any bias voltage) > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear where > these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram that > the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which > should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > the backplane...) The bias voltage is generated by the chopper on page three in conjunction with T1 and some rectifying diodes on the motherboard. Then it is feed back to the bias board on J2:2 to produce the 5V. (page 2) Good luck! > > Thanks, > Josh > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun Oct 11 02:48:06 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:48:06 +1100 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 386 Message-ID: If anyone has one they want to offload I'd be keen to hear about it please. thanks. From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 10 21:08:48 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:08:48 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <010301d0ff86$6b5138d0$41f3aa70$@yahoo.com> References: <010301d0ff86$6b5138d0$41f3aa70$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20151011020848.GA8262@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 09:56:36AM -0600, Joe wrote: > > Just wondering if any one has any experience setting up an ETOS system on a > PDP-8? > Some. I have it running on my online PDP-8 though am not an expert. > > > I've got most of it working, including adding a second terminal, but can't > for the life of me figure out the process on making a second drive available > to the users once we are in ETOS timesharing. > According to the system managers manual, it's a combination of Lookup and > assign. > Did you get it working? If not are you trying to make another ETOS pack available or an OS/8 pack? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 11 11:31:59 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 09:31:59 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay In-Reply-To: <068d01d103e1$90c4b330$b24e1990$@gmail.com> References: <068d01d103e1$90c4b330$b24e1990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACE7DF1-ED04-47AA-AF3F-C91F691F3787@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-10, at 9:59 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Brent Hilpert wore: >> I had that problem with the stuck reel hubs. Failed to take my own > advice-to-self to leave the reels unmounted and they stuck again, >> although easier to get off this time as it hadn't been many years under > pressure. > > I ended up covering the rubber hub with black electrical tape. That prevents > it from sticking again. OK; offhand, didn't think there'd be enough clearance to handle the extra tape thickness. >> I had originally written it in a re-targetable cross-assembler in a > now-outdated development environment under MacOS9. >> Last year rewrote someone else's assembler (C source) - it should work in > any standard C environment. >> Was using it to re-assemble HPBASIC. >> [...] Can send you the source if you wish. > > I'll gladly take the source, that would be very helpful later on. Forgot, it's online already: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/software/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 11 12:17:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:17:17 +0000 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > The bias voltage is generated by the chopper on page three in conjunction > with T1 and some rectifying diodes on the motherboard. Then it is feed back > to the bias board on J2:2 to produce the 5V. (page 2) Yes... It's not totally obvious at first glance, but this is yet another SMPSU with the chopper on the Bias/Interface board. The transformer on the baseboard is not a mains-frequency one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 11 12:23:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:23:36 +0000 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear where > these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram that > the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which > should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > the backplane...) I will give page references as for the .pdf of the printset on bitsavers. The bias supply is a switcher. On page 162, T1 is the chopper transformer, D6 the output-side rectifier, C3 the smoothing capacitor On page 168 (Bias/Interface PCB) Q1 is the chopper transistor, E2 (555) the control oscillator, etc. E1 on page 167 produces 5V from the 12V supply, but if the latter is missing it can't do a lot. Get the 12V back first. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 09:42:49 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 10:42:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We swapped the TU56 and TU55 drives between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. We found that the TU56 uses a double-sided paddle card for the control signals and the TU55 uses a single-sided paddle-card. The TC12 tape controller in the PDP-12 will work with either tape drive if you have the right cable. We borrowed a control and data cable from the PDP-8/I. The TU56 in the PDP-12 was wired for +5V, but can use +10V or +5V. The TU55 needs just 50ma of +10V, so we ran a wire from a +10V backplane pin to the TU55. After these modifications the TU55 operated correctly in the PDP-12. The TU55 behaved a little better than the TU56, and sometimes would actually boot OS/8. We continued chasing the issue and found glitches on data channel 3. We have swapped every module and cable that relates to data channel 3, but have not been able to fix the glitches. The glitches are there with both the TU55 and the TU56, so the problem is in the TC12 controller. We put the TU56 back in the PDP-12, and the TU55 back in the PDP-8/I. The TU56 behaves worse than the TU55, but that may be due to the timing adjustments in the TU56. I have to make the same adjustments in my personal TU56, so by next I will know how to adjust the TU56 in the PDP-12. We are running out of things to try for debugging the TC12 controller in the PDP-12. At this point we are really stumped as to why the TC12 doesn't work correctly. We are going to try a few remaining ideas like running the TC12 from a laboratory power supply. We would welcome any ideas that you have. On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. > > We saw a 500ns glitch in the LMU MOTION signal that corresponded to a > short slowdown in tape speed. We will investigate this next week. > > We entered the LINC instruction to check a single block (0707) in the left > switches and a block number (0777-0000) in the right switches. When we > pressed the DO key it should go to that block on the LINCtape. With large > block numbers (07xx) and with the tape positioned half way through the tape > it worked OK. With lower block numbers it sometimes could not find the > block and searched back-and-forth on the tape. The logic analyzer showed > that the block numbers were correct in a sequence of several blocks, and > then it will read a bad block number. The TC12 would tell the TU55 to turn > around, it would read a good block number, realize that it was going the > wrong direction, and turn the tape around. It would then read a good block > number, and then a bad block number, and turn around. > > At this point we don't think that we are working with bad tapes, but the > problem might be in either the TU56 tape drive, or the TC12 LINCtape > controller. We see bad behavior in both devices so we will do as Charles > Lasner suggested and swap a TU55 and TU56 between the PDP-12 and the > PDP-8/I. This will let us test the TU56 with a known good TC01 LINCtape > controller, and test a known good TU55 with a questionable TC12 LINCtape > controller. > > We ran the A-to-D converter test and were rewarded with a display on the > VR14 that showed correct operation of the knobs and A-to-D converters. > > -- > Michael Thompson > -- Michael Thompson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 11 14:07:30 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:07:30 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-10, at 8:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: . . . > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to > bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic > supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when > the H7140 is turned on. > > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear where > these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram that > the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which > should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > the backplane...) Note that the "+13V" supply must also be present, and it's generated and referenced on the Mains side of everything. In summary, for the relay to activate: 1) The Mains is rectified and filtered to produce Mains +300V via bridge LNS-CR1 and caps LNS-C1,C2. 2) MOB-D1,D2,R1,R2 form a voltage divider / balancing network to produce Mains +150VDC. They also balance the voltage across the Mains filter caps (LNS-C1,C2) when in 220VAC mode. ** 3) Mains +150V is regulated via MOB-R3, BIB-Q6, BIB-C4, BIB-D11 to produce Mains +13V, referenced from MOB-D2 feeding ("START-UP DRIVE") the base of BIB-Q6. 16V zener BIB-D12 additionally clamps this level. 4) Mains +13V supplies 555 oscillator BIB-E2, LM393 comparator BIB-E3b and associated circuitry. These form a SMPSU with MOB-T1. 5) The output from MOB-T1 is half-wave rectified in both polarities to produce BIB +12V (MOB-D6,C3) and BIB -15V (MOB-R4,R5,R6,D4,C2,D5). 6) BIB +12V produces BIB +5V via regulator BIB-E1. 7) BIB-E3a forms a voltage level sensor with reference zener BIB-D13 and voltage divider BIB-R3,R4,R27 that must detect an adequate level on the Mains +300V to turn on the relay via BIB-Q11, BIB-E5, BIB-E4a. LNS = Line Supply section PDF.146 MOB = Motherboard PDF.162 BIB = Bias & Interface Board PDF.166-168 ** There appears to be something inconsistent in the schematic here in that the base of BIB-Q6 is fed by +10V from MOB-D2, which would leave the Mains +13V at more like +8V. Am I missing something? - is there anywhere in that doc that explicitly declares the association between the 2-dozen connectors, for example, that Line Supply P1 & P2 connect to Motherboard J5 & J4, and that Bias and Interface Board J1 & J2 connect to Motherboard J7 & J6? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 11 14:26:26 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:26:26 +0000 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > Am I missing something? - is there anywhere in that doc that explicitly declares the > association between the 2-dozen connectors, for example, that Line Supply P1 & P2 > connect to Motherboard J5 & J4, and that Bias and Interface Board J1 & J2 connect > to Motherboard J7 & J6? Not that I can see. DEC were not good about providing things like that. Sometimes there would be a cabling diagram in the maintenance manual as opposed to the printset, but not always. I suppose if you have the unit in front of you it is obvious what is plugged into what, but I would still expect a diagram in the manual. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 14:57:23 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:57:23 +0200 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: 2015-10-11 21:07 GMT+02:00 Brent Hilpert : > On 2015-Oct-10, at 8:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > . . . > > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to > > bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic > > supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when > > the H7140 is turned on. > > > > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear > where > > these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram > that > > the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which > > should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > > the backplane...) > > > Note that the "+13V" supply must also be present, and it's generated and > referenced on the Mains side of everything. > > In summary, for the relay to activate: > > 1) The Mains is rectified and filtered to produce Mains +300V via > bridge LNS-CR1 and caps LNS-C1,C2. > > 2) MOB-D1,D2,R1,R2 form a voltage divider / balancing network to > produce Mains +150VDC. > They also balance the voltage across the Mains filter caps > (LNS-C1,C2) when in 220VAC mode. > > ** 3) Mains +150V is regulated via MOB-R3, BIB-Q6, BIB-C4, BIB-D11 to > produce Mains +13V, referenced > from MOB-D2 feeding ("START-UP DRIVE") the base of BIB-Q6. > 16V zener BIB-D12 additionally clamps this level. > > 4) Mains +13V supplies 555 oscillator BIB-E2, LM393 comparator > BIB-E3b and associated circuitry. These form a SMPSU with MOB-T1. > > 5) The output from MOB-T1 is half-wave rectified in both > polarities to produce BIB +12V (MOB-D6,C3) and BIB -15V > (MOB-R4,R5,R6,D4,C2,D5). > > 6) BIB +12V produces BIB +5V via regulator BIB-E1. > > 7) BIB-E3a forms a voltage level sensor with reference zener > BIB-D13 and voltage divider BIB-R3,R4,R27 that must detect an adequate > level on > the Mains +300V to turn on the relay via BIB-Q11, BIB-E5, > BIB-E4a. > > LNS = Line Supply section PDF.146 > MOB = Motherboard PDF.162 > BIB = Bias & Interface Board PDF.166-168 > Very nice and clear description on what is required to have relay to activate! > > ** There appears to be something inconsistent in the schematic here in > that the base of BIB-Q6 is fed by +10V from MOB-D2, which would leave the > Mains +13V at more like +8V. > > Am I missing something? - is there anywhere in that doc that explicitly > declares the association between the 2-dozen connectors, for example, that > Line Supply P1 & P2 connect to Motherboard J5 & J4, and that Bias and > Interface Board J1 & J2 connect to Motherboard J7 & J6? > > Not in the FMPS as far as I can see. But the BA11-A Technical Manual has a nice figure 3-2 (page 3-5) which associate various connectors in the PSU. From ethan at 757.org Sun Oct 11 19:24:57 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS: Cray J932SE system In-Reply-To: References: <20151010002454.GT3072@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > That is quite an impressive pile of sgi. Do you have any of the big sgi > gear around still? The last of my big SGI was a full rack SGI Origin 2000 (one of my favorites!) I posted it for free or something on NekoChan and a local person (I was in Virginia Beach at the time) came and picked it up. Fast forward a few years. I moved to Northern Virginia took a different job. Got randomly let go/laid off when the company was aquired (it wasn't a bad thing!) Had a few new offers on the table for jobs and the one I chose -- the guy that has the old Origin 2000 is now my coworker! He moved up this way a year or so ago, and still has it. He was planning to Numalink it to his existing full rack Onyx2 IIRC. He has a Fuel on his desk at work (mostly just for fun) but the power supply is dead in it or something. There is a spare Fuel motherboard nearby as well. The Challenge XLs I think I sold pretty cheaply, there was four Challenge Ls that I gave away (they were given to me free, so ethically wasn't going to sell them!) I had been through 3 deskside Onyxs, I know one is in New Mexico still not sure where the others are. Not sure about the two Crimsons. I still have an Indigo R3000 probably with Elan, which I bought from Reputable Systems years ago. And an Octane dual R12K which was a gift from SGI years ago. I was thinking of selling the Indigo as a complete system but backed off of it. I opened the door the other day and noticed there was a Python dat inside, I can't even remember how that got there? (Those have the firmware to read/write audio via SCSI bus.) The Challenge XL and Onyx racks and even the Origin 2000 -- they're I suppose "not made as well" and are fairly lightweight compared to other large systems. They're friendly large machines. And they've got cool displays of the CPU load on the front. Would recommend if you're going to go for large machines! A few pictures from my an early job of mine as a system admin: https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image01.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image13.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image15.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image20.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image12.jpg I had a small web hosting thing in VaBeach, early pics of the office (Challenge XL and Origin 2000 and stuff were just for fun, didn't run them all the time) https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/May01/IMG_0320.JPG https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/May01/IMG_0317.JPG From tonypf11 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:13:28 2015 From: tonypf11 at gmail.com (Tony) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:13:28 -0400 Subject: blog entry Message-ID: <561B0938.6060501@gmail.com> Hello, 4 hours ago I posted an email concerning a huge amount of documentation that I have. I also included about 30 pictures. I can find no indication that this email was distributed. Is there a problem with this information? Was it received? Tony Pflum From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 11 20:16:12 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:16:12 -0400 Subject: blog entry Message-ID: <35251.7d51acc.434c63dc@aol.com> dunno did not see it Tony - - maybe file to large? send to me direct to check out thanks ed Sharpe archivist for smecc In a message dated 10/11/2015 6:13:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tonypf11 at gmail.com writes: Hello, 4 hours ago I posted an email concerning a huge amount of documentation that I have. I also included about 30 pictures. I can find no indication that this email was distributed. Is there a problem with this information? Was it received? Tony Pflum From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:19:39 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:19:39 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Oct-10, at 8:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > . . . > > Thanks for the explanation. I tacked on some wires to the bias board (to > > bring them out for safe probing); the wires are connected to the 5V logic > > supply and the +12V bias supply and I get nothing at all out of them when > > the H7140 is turned on. > > > > I'm slowly coming to terms with the schematic but I'm not quite clear > where > > these two voltages are being generated. I note from the block diagram > that > > the +15 and +12 are rectified on the motherboard (backplane) -- which > > should make it GREAT fun to probe. So it looks like some careful > > disassembly is now required (unless there's a trick to probing things on > > the backplane...) > > > Note that the "+13V" supply must also be present, and it's generated and > referenced on the Mains side of everything. > > In summary, for the relay to activate: > > 1) The Mains is rectified and filtered to produce Mains +300V via > bridge LNS-CR1 and caps LNS-C1,C2. > > 2) MOB-D1,D2,R1,R2 form a voltage divider / balancing network to > produce Mains +150VDC. > They also balance the voltage across the Mains filter caps > (LNS-C1,C2) when in 220VAC mode. > > ** 3) Mains +150V is regulated via MOB-R3, BIB-Q6, BIB-C4, BIB-D11 to > produce Mains +13V, referenced > from MOB-D2 feeding ("START-UP DRIVE") the base of BIB-Q6. > 16V zener BIB-D12 additionally clamps this level. > > 4) Mains +13V supplies 555 oscillator BIB-E2, LM393 comparator > BIB-E3b and associated circuitry. These form a SMPSU with MOB-T1. > > 5) The output from MOB-T1 is half-wave rectified in both > polarities to produce BIB +12V (MOB-D6,C3) and BIB -15V > (MOB-R4,R5,R6,D4,C2,D5). > > 6) BIB +12V produces BIB +5V via regulator BIB-E1. > > 7) BIB-E3a forms a voltage level sensor with reference zener > BIB-D13 and voltage divider BIB-R3,R4,R27 that must detect an adequate > level on > the Mains +300V to turn on the relay via BIB-Q11, BIB-E5, > BIB-E4a. > > LNS = Line Supply section PDF.146 > MOB = Motherboard PDF.162 > BIB = Bias & Interface Board PDF.166-168 > > ** There appears to be something inconsistent in the schematic here in > that the base of BIB-Q6 is fed by +10V from MOB-D2, which would leave the > Mains +13V at more like +8V. > > Am I missing something? - is there anywhere in that doc that explicitly > declares the association between the 2-dozen connectors, for example, that > Line Supply P1 & P2 connect to Motherboard J5 & J4, and that Bias and > Interface Board J1 & J2 connect to Motherboard J7 & J6? > > Awesome, thanks for the detailed writeup. Things make sense, or at least more sense. I went to take a look at the +13V supply and of *course* once I did things started working, mysteriously. The relay clicks over and I get +13V and it looks like the bias voltages are present as well. All I did was tack on a wire to the 10/L header pins on the bias/interface board (+13V)... So that's... good, but I have no idea what the actual problem is/was. Going to clean the connectors and look for cold solder joints (again :)) just to rule that out. I'll get a dummy load hooked up and see if anything happens when I throw the front panel switch. Thanks again, all. - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 11 20:20:13 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:20:13 -0700 Subject: blog entry In-Reply-To: <561B0938.6060501@gmail.com> References: <561B0938.6060501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561B0ACD.8000806@bitsavers.org> On 10/11/15 6:13 PM, Tony wrote: > I also included about 30 pictures. Any message with attachments is bounced on this mailing list. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:49:04 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:49:04 -0500 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 386 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy Nigel, I believe that I do have one of these machines, and it's in good working order as of a couple months back. You're looking for a Portable /// correct? Are you in the USA? Best, Bill On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:48 AM, Nigel Williams < nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote: > If anyone has one they want to offload I'd be keen to hear about it please. > > thanks. > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun Oct 11 21:53:06 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:53:06 +1100 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 386 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:49 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I believe that I do have one of these machines, and it's in good working > order as of a couple months back. You're looking for a Portable /// > correct? > > Are you in the USA? > Hi Bill, thanks for the follow-up, seeking the updated variant known as the Compaq Portable 386. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Portable_386 I'm in Australia but willing to pay the shipping to get it here. From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 22:01:42 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:01:42 -0700 Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? In-Reply-To: References: <32165689-03E1-4B4E-BBD9-DAED73FE9D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <561B2296.3080903@gmail.com> On 10/11/15 6:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: > > On 2015-Oct-10, at 8:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > . . . > > Note that the "+13V" supply must also be present, and it's > generated and referenced on the Mains side of everything. > > In summary, for the relay to activate: > > 1) The Mains is rectified and filtered to produce Mains > +300V via bridge LNS-CR1 and caps LNS-C1,C2. > > 2) MOB-D1,D2,R1,R2 form a voltage divider / balancing > network to produce Mains +150VDC. > They also balance the voltage across the Mains filter > caps (LNS-C1,C2) when in 220VAC mode. > > ** 3) Mains +150V is regulated via MOB-R3, BIB-Q6, BIB-C4, > BIB-D11 to produce Mains +13V, referenced > from MOB-D2 feeding ("START-UP DRIVE") the base of BIB-Q6. > 16V zener BIB-D12 additionally clamps this level. > > 4) Mains +13V supplies 555 oscillator BIB-E2, LM393 > comparator BIB-E3b and associated circuitry. These form a SMPSU > with MOB-T1. > > 5) The output from MOB-T1 is half-wave rectified in both > polarities to produce BIB +12V (MOB-D6,C3) and BIB -15V > (MOB-R4,R5,R6,D4,C2,D5). > > 6) BIB +12V produces BIB +5V via regulator BIB-E1. > > 7) BIB-E3a forms a voltage level sensor with reference > zener BIB-D13 and voltage divider BIB-R3,R4,R27 that must detect > an adequate level on > the Mains +300V to turn on the relay via BIB-Q11, > BIB-E5, BIB-E4a. > > LNS = Line Supply section PDF.146 > MOB = Motherboard PDF.162 > BIB = Bias & Interface Board PDF.166-168 > > ** There appears to be something inconsistent in the schematic > here in that the base of BIB-Q6 is fed by +10V from MOB-D2, which > would leave the Mains +13V at more like +8V. > > Am I missing something? - is there anywhere in that doc that > explicitly declares the association between the 2-dozen > connectors, for example, that Line Supply P1 & P2 connect to > Motherboard J5 & J4, and that Bias and Interface Board J1 & J2 > connect to Motherboard J7 & J6? > > > Awesome, thanks for the detailed writeup. Things make sense, or at > least more sense. > > I went to take a look at the +13V supply and of *course* once I did > things started working, mysteriously. The relay clicks over and I get > +13V and it looks like the bias voltages are present as well. All I > did was tack on a wire to the 10/L header pins on the bias/interface > board (+13V)... > > So that's... good, but I have no idea what the actual problem is/was. > Going to clean the connectors and look for cold solder joints (again > :)) just to rule that out. I'll get a dummy load hooked up and see if > anything happens when I throw the front panel switch. > > Thanks again, all. > > - Josh > Re-inspection revealed no cold solder joints, but I reflowed the backplane connector pins on the Bias/Interface board pins L and 10 anyway. I reassembled everything in the chassis, hooked up a dummy load and everything came up fine. Reinstalled the CPU boardset + terminator and I get the Console chevron prompt after a couple of seconds and the built-in diagnostic tests pass. So, success, of a sort. I feel like I cheated somehow :). We'll see if it keeps working... Now to figure out mass storage; I have an SMD controller and a drive -- let's find out if either of them work :). Thanks again for the analysis and advice, I'm slowly figuring things out but I think I really need to sit down one of these days and really study power supply electronics. - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 11 22:05:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:05:39 -0700 Subject: blog entry In-Reply-To: <561B0ACD.8000806@bitsavers.org> References: <561B0938.6060501@gmail.com> <561B0ACD.8000806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <561B2383.1010701@sydex.com> On 10/11/15 6:13 PM, Tony wrote: > I also included about 30 pictures. In my case, my email server tosses any email larger than about 10MB into the bit bucket. If you have a lot of stuff, it's probably better to upload it to someplace such as Box and post the link. Sending MIME-encoded files through email is pretty inefficient. FWIW, Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 22:19:49 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:19:49 -0500 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 386 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ahhh.. OK. I think you're right, I might only have the original 286 version.. in fact, I'm almost sure. Let me check on it, and if I have what you want, I'll get back to you. Best, Bill On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Nigel Williams < nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:49 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > I believe that I do have one of these machines, and it's in good working > > order as of a couple months back. You're looking for a Portable /// > > correct? > > > > Are you in the USA? > > > > Hi Bill, thanks for the follow-up, seeking the updated variant known as the > Compaq Portable 386. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Portable_386 > > I'm in Australia but willing to pay the shipping to get it here. > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 11 22:49:57 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 23:49:57 -0400 Subject: WTB: Compaq Portable 386 Message-ID: <36afb.136fca6c.434c87e5@aol.com> the Compaq III is quite cool there was also an add on docking thingie too to go with it. .... IBM also made a ps2 sort of one with a plasma screen on it too that was a box that closed up on it self. used to be able to find these in thrift shops often but these days you seldom see them. I got one and used it for a while until the power supply quit. For now it will have to remain a static display... for a while anyway. (schematics or maint. manual anyone!?) I even used to find Burroughs BTOS desktops in T shops but now what I need one for a display here at the museum.... none to be found! Need some to sit in the middle of these photo panel and some incredibly neat promotional items related to that computer Burroughs had put out at one time. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/11/2015 7:53:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com writes: On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:49 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I believe that I do have one of these machines, and it's in good working > order as of a couple months back. You're looking for a Portable /// > correct? > > Are you in the USA? > Hi Bill, thanks for the follow-up, seeking the updated variant known as the Compaq Portable 386. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Portable_386 I'm in Australia but willing to pay the shipping to get it here. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 14:38:36 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 15:38:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 October 2015 at 10:42, Michael Thompson wrote: > We are running out of things to try for debugging the TC12 controller in > the PDP-12. At this point we are really stumped as to why the TC12 doesn't > work correctly. We are going to try a few remaining ideas like running the > TC12 from a laboratory power supply. > > We would welcome any ideas that you have. > I'm most assuredly not an expert, and have zero clue what I'm talking about... But have you checked that the wire wrap on the backplane is all good? Perhaps Some of the backplane wrap has gotten damaged and that's why the TC12 isn't working correctly. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 11 18:44:54 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:44:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561AF476.10804@charter.net> On 10/11/2015 9:42 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > We are running out of things to try for debugging the TC12 controller in > the PDP-12. At this point we are really stumped as to why the TC12 doesn't > work correctly. We are going to try a few remaining ideas like running the > TC12 from a laboratory power supply. > > We would welcome any ideas that you have. > Don't forget about the other more remote possibilities: cables, backplane, bad wrap, supply voltages at the actual card(s) for the mis-behaving channel, etc. JRJ From dmonnens at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 18:54:14 2015 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:54:14 -0400 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller Message-ID: Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that this MUST be the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some important historical data we are trying to recover, but the controller is nonfunctioning. Thank you for any help! -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 19:07:23 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:07:23 +1300 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no constructive input to share - except the strong memory of the bloke who maintained my pdp-12s for 25 years before I collected them saying that the TC12 was an "absolute bugger" and the hardest part of the machine to troubleshoot! Good luck and don't feel bad about having a hard time with it! Mike On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > We swapped the TU56 and TU55 drives between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. We > found that the TU56 uses a double-sided paddle card for the control signals > and the TU55 uses a single-sided paddle-card. The TC12 tape controller in > the PDP-12 will work with either tape drive if you have the right cable. We > borrowed a control and data cable from the PDP-8/I. The TU56 in the PDP-12 > was wired for +5V, but can use +10V or +5V. The TU55 needs just 50ma of > +10V, so we ran a wire from a +10V backplane pin to the TU55. After these > modifications the TU55 operated correctly in the PDP-12. > > The TU55 behaved a little better than the TU56, and sometimes would > actually boot OS/8. We continued chasing the issue and found glitches on > data channel 3. We have swapped every module and cable that relates to data > channel 3, but have not been able to fix the glitches. The glitches are > there with both the TU55 and the TU56, so the problem is in the TC12 > controller. > > We put the TU56 back in the PDP-12, and the TU55 back in the PDP-8/I. The > TU56 behaves worse than the TU55, but that may be due to the timing > adjustments in the TU56. I have to make the same adjustments in my personal > TU56, so by next I will know how to adjust the TU56 in the PDP-12. > > We are running out of things to try for debugging the TC12 controller in > the PDP-12. At this point we are really stumped as to why the TC12 doesn't > work correctly. We are going to try a few remaining ideas like running the > TC12 from a laboratory power supply. > > We would welcome any ideas that you have. > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> We did a lot more debugging on the TC12 LINCtape controller. >> >> We saw a 500ns glitch in the LMU MOTION signal that corresponded to a >> short slowdown in tape speed. We will investigate this next week. >> >> We entered the LINC instruction to check a single block (0707) in the left >> switches and a block number (0777-0000) in the right switches. When we >> pressed the DO key it should go to that block on the LINCtape. With large >> block numbers (07xx) and with the tape positioned half way through the tape >> it worked OK. With lower block numbers it sometimes could not find the >> block and searched back-and-forth on the tape. The logic analyzer showed >> that the block numbers were correct in a sequence of several blocks, and >> then it will read a bad block number. The TC12 would tell the TU55 to turn >> around, it would read a good block number, realize that it was going the >> wrong direction, and turn the tape around. It would then read a good block >> number, and then a bad block number, and turn around. >> >> At this point we don't think that we are working with bad tapes, but the >> problem might be in either the TU56 tape drive, or the TC12 LINCtape >> controller. We see bad behavior in both devices so we will do as Charles >> Lasner suggested and swap a TU55 and TU56 between the PDP-12 and the >> PDP-8/I. This will let us test the TU56 with a known good TC01 LINCtape >> controller, and test a known good TU55 with a questionable TC12 LINCtape >> controller. >> >> We ran the A-to-D converter test and were rewarded with a display on the >> VR14 that showed correct operation of the knobs and A-to-D converters. >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson >> > > > > -- > Michael Thompson -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Oct 11 20:18:44 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:18:44 -0700 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CE5F9DC-BA47-4CC3-8744-ED44FB0946C6@nf6x.net> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 16:54, Devin Monnens wrote: > > Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec 1402A > Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that this MUST be > the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some important historical > data we are trying to recover, but the controller is nonfunctioning. This may a dumb question, but could the drive be imaged by some other means, such as David Gesswein's MFM emulator? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:40:21 2015 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 21:40:21 -0400 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: <3CE5F9DC-BA47-4CC3-8744-ED44FB0946C6@nf6x.net> References: <3CE5F9DC-BA47-4CC3-8744-ED44FB0946C6@nf6x.net> Message-ID: The 1402A was in error ? it's a 1410A with version 1.0 firmware. David Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 11, 2015, at 21:18, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Oct 11, 2015, at 16:54, Devin Monnens wrote: >> >> Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec 1402A >> Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that this MUST be >> the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some important historical >> data we are trying to recover, but the controller is nonfunctioning. > > This may a dumb question, but could the drive be imaged by some other means, such as David Gesswein's MFM emulator? > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 00:59:39 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:59:39 -0700 Subject: HP & 800BPI / was Re: Tape cleaner on eBay Message-ID: <000001d104b3$2f9201d0$8eb60570$@gmail.com> Thanks Brent, I had used your very helpful site before to help me figure out IO cards, but had missed this gem. Marc ================================== From: Brent Hilpert On 2015-Oct-10, at 9:59 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> I had originally written it in a re-targetable cross-assembler in a > now-outdated development environment under MacOS9. >> Last year rewrote someone else's assembler (C source) - it should work in > any standard C environment. >> Was using it to re-assemble HPBASIC. >> [...] Can send you the source if you wish. > > I'll gladly take the source, that would be very helpful later on. Forgot, it's online already: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/software/index.html From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Mon Oct 12 01:34:58 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 02:34:58 -0400 Subject: FW: NitrOS-9 6809 L1 v3.3.0 has just been born on the Multicomp09! Message-ID: <00c801d104b8$1db7bf90$59273eb0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Guys, I wanted to give you guys an update on the latest progress on the Multicomp09. Neal Crook has just completed modifying the boot process in NitrOS-9 6809 L1 v3.3.0 and it is now booting flawlessly on the Multicomp09! I have updated my Multicomp09 with Neal's latest VHDL code and also with the latest Multi-software environment as well. I'm proud to announce that I too now have NitrOS-9 6809 L1 v3.3.0 running on my Multicomp09 as well! Whoo-Hoo! NitrOS-9 6809 L1 v3.3.0 was just born on the Multicomp09 a day or two ago so it is by far not fully tested though I'm not expecting any big hiccups at this point. Everything I've tried so far has worked fine if I recall correctly. I've been up most of the night checking it all out. :P I've changed from the default shell that comes preconfigured with L1 to Shellplus so now I have my cd command back that I'm so used to using in L2! Finally I can traverse directories with ease. I've created a /T2 device for serial port A on the Multicomp PCB. I connected putty on my laptop via a USB to serial cable and now I have a fully usable NitrOS-9 Terminal on my laptop! It's a 2 User system now. One of the next hurdles will be to get the other serial port running. There are 4 - 720KB virtual floppy drives online with the boot dsk image file on drive 0 of course and at this point the same image on the other three virtual floppy drives just to get the system up and running. With a fully functional serial port, I'm eager to see about getting Drivewire 4 up and running though 64KB of ram might be pushing it a bit. We'll see how that goes. I'm going through various commands now to make sure everything works. The device descriptor for serial port A, /T2, will need to eventually be included in the OS9Boot file as /T1. Some unneeded modules currently exist like bitbanger stuff which are not needed on the Multicomp09. Since I have shelled /T2, I can work on this at my favorite hang out at my favorite table in Mickey D's! Cool! By the way, are any of you guys on Skype? We could have a little video conference on the Multicomp! :) Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Oct 12 02:40:23 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 00:40:23 -0700 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: <3CE5F9DC-BA47-4CC3-8744-ED44FB0946C6@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5734BD2E-238D-4952-95B8-44A8542A0895@nf6x.net> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 18:40 , David Ryskalczyk wrote: > > The 1402A was in error ? it's a 1410A with version 1.0 firmware. I have an as yet untested CoCo hard drive system from eBay with a 1410 in it. Sadly, not the 1410A that Jason says he needs. The 1410A manual at Bitsavers notes some incompatibilities including incompatible formats for 256 byte sectors, so I presume that Jason has already determined that an older 1410 won't work for the recovery he's attempting. :( -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 06:42:22 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:42:22 +1300 Subject: Panda Panel Message-ID: (BCC to Spare Time Gizmos and Rich A. - both of whom may have a clue!) Folks, I've finally dug out my Panda Panel and got it going - after having to deal with various strangeness in a dodgy parallel port connector, and figuring out I really DID have to be root to get it to initialize! It all works; the 'aux' CPU load segments respond appropriately, as does the Run/Disk/Tape/Network cluster. But from the moment KLH10 is started, every single segment of the main display is ON and remains ON until the host machine is powered off. Any suggestions? Is this normal behaviour? Is it just that the thing is running too fast for me to see any patterns? Does the Panda Panel care what mode the parallel port is set to in the BIOS? The fact that the other parts of the panel do the right things suggests to me that the interface etc. is basically sane... but the one photo I've ever seen of an operational panel looks quite different... http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/images/Lingling.jpg Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 07:05:36 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Devin Monnens wrote: > Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec > 1402A Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that > this MUST be the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some > important historical data we are trying to recover, but the controller > is nonfunctioning. I'm having a little trouble following this thread. You mention a "1402A", but another person posts "..it should really be 1410A". Which are you looking for? -- From jason at textfiles.com Mon Oct 12 07:47:00 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:47:00 -0400 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are looking for a 1410. The 1402a was a miscommunication on the part of the original person. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Devin Monnens wrote: > > Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec 1402A >> Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that this MUST be >> the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some important historical >> data we are trying to recover, but the controller is nonfunctioning. >> > > I'm having a little trouble following this thread. You mention a "1402A", > but another person posts "..it should really be 1410A". Which are you > looking for? > > > > -- > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 12 08:38:45 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H7140 (11/44) power supply revisions and general advice? Message-ID: <20151012133845.2BEB918C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Very nice and clear description on what is required to have relay to > activate! Indeed! Thanks, Brent, for that wonderful writeup - I'm sure I'll find it immensely useful when the time comes to work on my 11/44. I'll have to carefully save a personal copy in a file - finding it in the archives, when the time comes, won't be too easy. If only we had a Wiki we could put all this kind of stuff in... (Hint, hint!) Noel From dmonnens at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 05:15:34 2015 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 06:15:34 -0400 Subject: Xebec 1410A (WAS Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller) Message-ID: Ok, correction to previous message. It's a Xebec 1410A with 1.0 Firmware. Should be MUCH easier to find now that we have the correct model number! Was curious if anyone here has - or knows someone who does - a Xebec 1402A > Seagate HDD controller. The drive is in an IBM 5150. Note that this MUST be > the 1402A, NOT the more common 1402. There is some important historical > data we are trying to recover, but the controller is nonfunctioning. > Thank you for any help! -- Devin Monnens www.deserthat.com The sleep of Reason produces monsters. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 07:09:30 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xebec 1410A (WAS Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Devin Monnens wrote: > Ok, correction to previous message. It's a Xebec 1410A with 1.0 > Firmware. Should be MUCH easier to find now that we have the correct > model number! This was in an IBM 5150 (original PC)? I'm still confused. The 1410A is a bridge board that presents an MFM drive as a SASI (pre-SCSI) device. What SCSI bus adapter is that machine fitted with? In any event, that disk should be readable using David Gesswein's MFM emulator. -- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 12 10:14:29 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 logo panel Message-ID: <20151012151429.B538418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I recently acquired a machine which has an unusual "digital equipment of canada, ltd." pdp11 logo panel at the top of the H960 it's in. Is there anyone who would really have a connection to a panel with that on it? (Let me hasten to add that I have nothing _against_ it, and would be happy to leave it there, but maybe someone out there is dying to have one.) If so, I'd be more than happy to swap this one for a plain pdp11 logo panel (i.e. one that says "digital equipment corporation"). Also, if anyone wants a scan of this, let me know, and I'll crank one out. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 12 10:30:39 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:30:39 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <20151011045316.GA26315@dbit.dbit.com> References: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> <20151011045316.GA26315@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <2BE7E6EF-2EB9-44E9-82F9-0B8C245FAF4C@comcast.net> > On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:53 AM, John Wilson wrote: > > ... but I'd rather go RoHS. I would recommend against that. Not unless you are trying to create a commercial product where you *must* be RoHS to conform to the requirements of the bureaucrats. Use real solder -- the job will be much easier and the result more reliable. Real solder is still available, including solder paste. I asked one of the technicians at work about this stuff a while ago -- they know all about this question since they have to use RoHS when doing rework on modern designs. And what I just said is what they told me (i.e., don't, unless you are forced to). They also told me that real solder works just fine on lead-free parts. I tried that and can confirm this is correct. > ... >> I was hoping for the Pick 'n' Paste machine to come along and save me from >> having to do all that by hand but that project seems to have faded away. > > Oh seriously! I've been hoping one of the homebrew SMT assembly robot > projects would "take" too, at a reasonable cost. Making prototypes is > bad enough ... but what if I get it working and then I'd want to make > dozens of these things, at 4+ hours each? I would think a pick & place robot would be a fairly straightforward derivative of a 3d printer. But is that really needed? Placing the parts isn't all that terrible. The trouble is the soldering. I have read (and posted here in the past) a nice article (in German) on the use of a toaster oven with some clever temperature control as an IR reflow soldering machine. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a good scheme, and would allow the use of BGA parts at least in moderate sizes. At least one of the moderate cost small volume PCB fab shops will deliver solder paste screens along with the finished boards if you ask for it. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 12 10:56:55 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:56:55 +0100 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <20151012151429.B538418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151012151429.B538418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <561BD847.6000102@btinternet.com> That would have been from the Kanata factory. The Irish (Galway) factory did same thing as they were both building to client order. Rod On 12/10/2015 16:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I recently acquired a machine which has an unusual "digital equipment of > canada, ltd." pdp11 logo panel at the top of the H960 it's in. > > Is there anyone who would really have a connection to a panel with that on it? > (Let me hasten to add that I have nothing _against_ it, and would be happy to > leave it there, but maybe someone out there is dying to have one.) If so, I'd > be more than happy to swap this one for a plain pdp11 logo panel (i.e. one > that says "digital equipment corporation"). > > Also, if anyone wants a scan of this, let me know, and I'll crank one out. > > Noel -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 12 10:57:57 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:57:57 -0500 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <2BE7E6EF-2EB9-44E9-82F9-0B8C245FAF4C@comcast.net> References: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> <20151011045316.GA26315@dbit.dbit.com> <2BE7E6EF-2EB9-44E9-82F9-0B8C245FAF4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561BD885.1080701@pico-systems.com> On 10/12/2015 10:30 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:53 AM, John Wilson wrote: >> >> ... but I'd rather go RoHS. > I would recommend against that. Not unless you are trying to create a commercial product where you *must* be RoHS to conform to the requirements of the bureaucrats. Use real solder -- the job will be much easier and the result more reliable. Real solder is still available, including solder paste. > > I asked one of the technicians at work about this stuff a while ago -- they know all about this question since they have to use RoHS when doing rework on modern designs. And what I just said is what they told me (i.e., don't, unless you are forced to). They also told me that real solder works just fine on lead-free parts. I tried that and can confirm this is correct. > >> ... >>> I was hoping for the Pick 'n' Paste machine to come along and save me from >>> having to do all that by hand but that project seems to have faded away. >> Oh seriously! I've been hoping one of the homebrew SMT assembly robot >> projects would "take" too, at a reasonable cost. Making prototypes is >> bad enough ... but what if I get it working and then I'd want to make >> dozens of these things, at 4+ hours each? > I would think a pick & place robot would be a fairly straightforward derivative of a 3d printer. But is that really needed? Placing the parts isn't all that terrible. The trouble is the soldering. I have read (and posted here in the past) a nice article (in German) on the use of a toaster oven with some clever temperature control as an IR reflow soldering machine. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a good scheme, and would allow the use of BGA parts at least in moderate sizes. > > At least one of the moderate cost small volume PCB fab shops will deliver solder paste screens along with the finished boards if you ask for it. > > I have moved over almost entirely to lead-free. Yes, there is more hassle, but I ship boards all over the world, so I do have to be compliant. At first, I had HUGE problems, but it got better with more experience, and as the makers of solder got it all figured out. I use SAC305 solder, which wets better and has a shinier finish than pure tin solders. I have a 1600 Lb. Philips CSM84 pick and place in my basement. I can do one-offs by hand, as long as the parts aren't too small, but for more than a couple boards, I really DO want the P&P machine. But, it is not just a 3D printer. it has 3 heads with different nozzle sizes for different parts, two of them have centering jaws that center the part on the nozzle after it is picked up. it also has a sort-of camera to pick up fiducial marks on the board for alignment, and a centering station that centers large parts like FPGA chips. The big difference is that it has a huge amount of recovery software to detect mis-picks (by vacuum level) and try to readjust the part by cycling the jaws, if that doesn't work it dumps the part and tries another one. The toaster oven reflow soldering is amazing. I use a ramp and soak controller with a thermocouple poked into a through hole in the PC board for temperature reference. Jon From wilson at dbit.com Mon Oct 12 11:12:03 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:12:03 -0400 Subject: Q-bus I/O project In-Reply-To: <2BE7E6EF-2EB9-44E9-82F9-0B8C245FAF4C@comcast.net> References: <56195491.4090600@froghouse.org> <20151011045316.GA26315@dbit.dbit.com> <2BE7E6EF-2EB9-44E9-82F9-0B8C245FAF4C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151012161203.GA15079@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:30:39AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> ... but I'd rather go RoHS. > >I would recommend against that. Not unless you are trying to create a >commercial product where you *must* be RoHS to conform to the requirements >of the bureaucrats. Use real solder -- the job will be much easier and >the result more reliable. Real solder is still available, including >solder paste. Sure, but I've been using the new solder (and paste) for years now, and I'm resigned to it. I'd sell any of my doodads if someone wanted to buy them, so I want them to be legal, even though I've never understood who was being poisoned by the lead in solder. I absolutely hated it at first (and I still hate paying for it -- my last 1 lb roll of Kester RoHS solder with water-soluble flux was over $100) but I've gotten used to it and really, it's fine. Nice shiny strong joints, if I run the iron a little hotter. And the SMT stuff is all reflow so it's automatic. >I would think a pick & place robot would be a fairly straightforward >derivative of a 3d printer. I was thinking the same thing. A vacu-sucker head and some way of feeding (and unwrapping) the tape with the components, and possibly a camera, are all it needs ... not that that's trivial, but it's nothing compared to the X/Y/Z mechanics. Also, 500 gallons of new firmware, but, whatever! >But is that really needed? Placing the parts isn't all that terrible. I wholeheartedly disagree! It took me over four hours to position the parts on this board and my back was killing me by the end. (I can't *believe* I made it four hours w/o knocking the board off the table or putting my elbow on it or something idiotic like that.) I wouldn't even mind a very sloppy robot that doesn't have machine vision and isn't precise about orienting parts. I always go over with a microscope and square them up anyway, and that part doesn't take long (and gives a nice OCD buzz). >I have read (and posted here in the past) a nice article (in German) on >the use of a toaster oven with some clever temperature control as an IR >reflow soldering machine. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a >good scheme, and would allow the use of BGA parts at least in moderate >sizes. It works *fantastically*. That's what I do, using an Arduino and a homemade shield with a MAX6675 on it (um ... hand-soldered, but SOICs are easy so there's no chicken/egg problem), and a couple of buttons and a socket for an eBay LCD module. The only thing is, the (bare) tip of the thermocouple has to be touching one of the boards (if it's just measuring the air temp, you scorch the PCBs), and no matter how I think I've bent it, it has a mind of its own and tends to sweep components away when I put it in place and let go. >At least one of the moderate cost small volume PCB fab shops will deliver >solder paste screens along with the finished boards if you ask for it. Those are huge time-savers. I've had great luck with both ohararp.com (charged by the sheet) and oshstencils.com (by the sqinch) for Kapton (low-volume), and bayareacircuits.com (by the design) for stainless steel (super nice but more expensive). A small Corian cutting board makes a great backboard for taping up the jig to do some pasting. For one-offs, using a syringe by eye is fine. It doesn't have to be very precise. The flux melts at a much lower temp than the solder pellets, so the beautiful square blocks from the stencil turn into a pool anyway, but then the solder mask does its job and the pool separates out onto the pads (except for TQFPs -- gotta use solder-wick afterwards on them) once the tin melts too. So for SOICs/TQFPs you might as well just lay a bead down across a whole row of pads. It works just as well as a tiny dab on each. John Wilson D Bit From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 11:12:47 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > We are looking for a 1410. The 1402a was a miscommunication on the part of > the original person. The machine is an original IBM PC, correct? Do you have the requisite host adapter to interface with the 1410A bridge controller? The 1410A was shipped with a number of different firmware versions. Do you know which one you need? -- From jason at textfiles.com Mon Oct 12 11:15:42 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:15:42 -0400 Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We do and the firmware revision is 1.0. I'm sorry for feeding this information out in drabs - I thought it was asked in the original mail and apparently not. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > > We are looking for a 1410. The 1402a was a miscommunication on the part of >> the original person. >> > > The machine is an original IBM PC, correct? Do you have the requisite > host adapter to interface with the 1410A bridge controller? > > The 1410A was shipped with a number of different firmware versions. Do > you know which one you need? > > > > -- > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 11:29:25 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Jason Scott wrote: > We do and the firmware revision is 1.0. I'm sorry for feeding this > information out in drabs - I thought it was asked in the original mail and > apparently not. Please post any and all numbers on the 1410A board ROM. That's the only way to understand what you have. -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 11:58:38 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:58:38 +0200 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <561BD847.6000102@btinternet.com> References: <20151012151429.B538418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561BD847.6000102@btinternet.com> Message-ID: The "Galway" panel is much more common in Europe than the "Massachusettes" one. That one is more r at re over here :-) @Noell: yes, please take a nice picture of it! You can email it directly to me, file size does not matter. The higher the resolution the better! Or store at a repository, more guys probably want to download it. - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 5:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: H960 logo panel That would have been from the Kanata factory. The Irish (Galway) factory did same thing as they were both building to client order. Rod On 12/10/2015 16:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I recently acquired a machine which has an unusual "digital equipment > of > canada, ltd." pdp11 logo panel at the top of the H960 it's in. > > Is there anyone who would really have a connection to a panel with that on > it? > (Let me hasten to add that I have nothing _against_ it, and would be happy > to > leave it there, but maybe someone out there is dying to have one.) If so, > I'd > be more than happy to swap this one for a plain pdp11 logo panel (i.e. one > that says "digital equipment corporation"). > > Also, if anyone wants a scan of this, let me know, and I'll crank one out. > > Noel -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Oct 12 12:06:25 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:06:25 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <20151011020848.GA8262@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <010301d0ff86$6b5138d0$41f3aa70$@yahoo.com> <20151011020848.GA8262@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> > On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 09:56:36AM -0600, Joe wrote: > > > > Just wondering if any one has any experience setting up an ETOS system > > on a PDP-8? > > > Some. I have it running on my online PDP-8 though am not an expert. > > > > > > > I've got most of it working, including adding a second terminal, but > > can't for the life of me figure out the process on making a second > > drive available to the users once we are in ETOS timesharing. > > According to the system managers manual, it's a combination of Lookup > > and assign. > > > Did you get it working? If not are you trying to make another ETOS pack > available or an OS/8 pack? Thanks for the response. I guess not to many people have messed around with Multos8 or ETOS. I haven't played much with it this week. It's a fascinating system. The manuals aren't half bad either. I'm trying to add an OS/8 disk pack so I can mess around with the timesharing on two terminals. Cheers, Joe From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 12 13:37:19 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:37:19 +0100 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: References: <20151012151429.B538418C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561BD847.6000102@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561BFDDF.3070501@btinternet.com> I could use the H960 its attached to!!! Rod On 12/10/2015 17:58, Henk Gooijen wrote: > The "Galway" panel is much more common in Europe than the > "Massachusettes" one. That one is more r at re over here :-) > > @Noell: yes, please take a nice picture of it! You can email > it directly to me, file size does not matter. The higher the > resolution the better! Or store at a repository, more guys > probably want to download it. > > - Henk > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 5:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: H960 logo panel > > That would have been from the Kanata factory. > The Irish (Galway) factory did same thing as they were both building to > client order. > > Rod > > > On 12/10/2015 16:14, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So, I recently acquired a machine which has an unusual "digital >> equipment of >> canada, ltd." pdp11 logo panel at the top of the H960 it's in. >> >> Is there anyone who would really have a connection to a panel with >> that on it? >> (Let me hasten to add that I have nothing _against_ it, and would be >> happy to >> leave it there, but maybe someone out there is dying to have one.) If >> so, I'd >> be more than happy to swap this one for a plain pdp11 logo panel >> (i.e. one >> that says "digital equipment corporation"). >> >> Also, if anyone wants a scan of this, let me know, and I'll crank one >> out. >> >> Noel > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 12 13:30:55 2015 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:30:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: Hi Simon, just came accross, what might be helpful for you: I found some pages with my spare 906 controller (unfortunatley not working), listing the functions of the DIP switches. I scanned them and you find them on my server in the specials section: http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/Calcomp_OPC906-907-Switches.pdf Good luck, Erik. On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Hi Simon, > > thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded > them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ > >> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the pcb's >> in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later today. > > Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got > engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, > the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the > schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, > i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no > schematics at the moment :-( > >> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current loop, >> looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. How is yours >> wired? > > That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether > this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of > daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have > been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language > the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it > is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS > and DSR/DTR) I think. > >> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >> yesterday. > > Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's > basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation > once a month... > > Best regards, > > Erik. > >> On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >>> >>> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >>> if your plotter looks like this... >>> >>> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >>> >>> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >>> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >>> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Erik. >>> >>> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >>> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >>> your plotter have got three colors? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>>> There are two >>>> big >>>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>>> the servos >>>> and >>>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>>> the >>>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>>> >>>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>>> may not >>>> be >>>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>>> >>>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>>> problem on >>>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>>> unfortunately >>>> it is >>>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>>> if there is >>>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>>> for >>>> safety >>>> some years ago... >>>> >>>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>>> >>>> >>>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um 20:02 >>>>> geschrieben: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>>> service >>>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and test >>>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a second the >>>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>>> loaded as >>>>>> per the user guide. >>>>> >>>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>>> check >>>>> and/or >>>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>>> manufacturers >>>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>> >> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl >> > From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Oct 12 13:51:14 2015 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:51:14 -0300 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Paul Koning wrote on Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:44:58 -0400: > > On Oct 9, 2015, at 5:39 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > [noticed voter ID terminal had cable to voting machines!] > > That's not the real problem. Indeed, not *the* problem but just *a* problem I noticed while still in line to get into the voting station. > The real problem is that you had no way to be sure, no way to verify, > that the machine was recording your vote and would accurately report > it later. It might just as easily report numbers that someone had told > it to report, not connected to any reality. How would you know? If > anyone were to question this, how would you prove that the count is > honest? This issue was raised, so the third time these machines were used in a national election there was a pilot with modified machines that printed their results so that the voter could see (but not touch) and then dropped the paper version into an urn. Observers from all the different parties could use the paper trail to verify the numbers presented electronically by the machines. After that single trial, TSE declared that the result was that a paper trail was proved to be unnecessary and caused delays and added expense, so those machines were never seen again and elections in Brazil have been paper free ever since. There are several aspects of voting culture in Brazil that are quite different than in many other countries and any proposals have to take that into account. Voting is mandatory, for example. If you can't prove that you voted in the last two elections (or were officially excused due to travel or something like that) then you can't get a passport and suffer a few other restrictions. There are a lot of people who would like to buy people's votes and, historically, many powerful people would force all their employees to vote for their own candidates. This means that any scheme that would allow somebody to prove how they voted would be completely rejected, here. Even doing stuff like taking a picture of the machine's screen with your cell phone to show how you voted is one of the few things that can land you in jail on election day. Here is an example of a scheme that would work in some countries, but would not be an option in Brazil: just generate a random number and store it with the vote. You print out the random number and give it to the voter to take him. Then you make the final contents of the machine available online. The voter can go through that at home and check that their random number is paired with their actual vote. They have to suppose that will also be the case for everyone else. They can manually add all the votes for that machine (or any other they are interested in) and compare with the final report for that machine. This protects against fraud, but not against being forced to prove to somebody (other than yourself) how you voted. -- Jecel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 13:53:56 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:53:56 -0500 Subject: ST506/412 failure modes? (in this case, an IBM 0665) Message-ID: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> Afternoon all, This may be forgotten knowledge - or perhaps more likely, something that was never known in the first place - but are there any typical failure modes of ST506/412-type drives (beyond the obvious mechanical damage between heads and platters)? I've seen quite a few dead drives over the years, but of course haven't invested much time into thinking about what might actually be wrong with them, because they were once quite common. Now that working ones are getting scarce, it got me wondering if there were any obvious things to check. In this particular instance, I've got an IBM 0665 30MB drive in a Compaq which spins up, bounces the heads around a little, then causes the machine to issue a fixed disk failure at boot time. This is an embedded servo drive with a voice coil, not a stepper type. Oddly enough, it passes Compaq diag's spare cylinder read/write tests, but fails the seek test. I've not tried a LLF yet because I was interested in trying to salvage whatever data might be on it first; there are several large ASICs in the logic board, but also a lot of more common stuff, so it's possible that the fault is something fixable - but checking component by component is probably more trouble than it's worth. Yeah yeah, MFM emulators and whatnot... but I do want to keep noisy old boat anchors alive in my machines for as long as I can - while a modern replacement is the only long-term solution, I always think of modern tech as detracting from the experience of using old hardware. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 13:57:39 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:57:39 -0400 Subject: ST506/412 failure modes? (in this case, an IBM 0665) In-Reply-To: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> References: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Afternoon all, > > This may be forgotten knowledge - or perhaps more likely, something that was > never known in the first place - but are there any typical failure modes of > ST506/412-type drives (beyond the obvious mechanical damage between heads > and platters)? I had a Tandon TM602S refurbed in the 1990s because it was the mech from a Commodore D9060 drive (and we didn't yet know that a Seagate ST225 would drop-in without firmware changes, though at 5MB of capacity used). The specific fault with the one I had was a bad track zero sensor. It required opening the HDA, so I had it done by a repair house. ISTR it was well under $100 since I wasn't fiddling with the platters. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 13:58:28 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:58:28 +0000 Subject: ST506/412 failure modes? (in this case, an IBM 0665) In-Reply-To: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> References: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > This may be forgotten knowledge - or perhaps more likely, something that > was never known in the first place - but are there any typical failure > modes of ST506/412-type drives (beyond the obvious mechanical damage > between heads and platters)? For the genuine original ST506 ST412, etc there is a very annoying failure of the hall effect device in the spindle motor. Annoying becuase the motor is on the outside of the HDA, but it is impossible to get to the hall device to replace it. > In this particular instance, I've got an IBM 0665 30MB drive in a Compaq > which spins up, bounces the heads around a little, then causes the machine > to issue a fixed disk failure at boot time. This is an embedded servo drive > with a voice coil, not a stepper type. Oddly enough, it passes Compaq I am sure you know this, but there were ST412-interfaced drives with a separate servo surface. Most of the time if there are an odd number of data heads then it has a separate servo surface, an even number of data heads implies embedded servo (or a stepper).. > diag's spare cylinder read/write tests, but fails the seek test. I've not > tried a LLF yet because I was interested in trying to salvage whatever data My first guess is that it is losing the servo signal at some point. Possibly due to platter damage. Do you get any nasty noises as the heads fly to one side or the other and then re-seek to the right track? > Yeah yeah, MFM emulators and whatnot... but I do want to keep noisy old > boat anchors alive in my machines for as long as I can - while a modern > replacement is the only long-term solution, I always think of modern tech > as detracting from the experience of using old hardware. Oh I agree with you there... A computer is a lot more than just a processor! -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 12:40:26 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:40:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:44:54 -0500 > From: Jay Jaeger > Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM > > Don't forget about the other more remote possibilities: cables, > backplane, bad wrap, supply voltages at the actual card(s) for the > mis-behaving channel, etc. > > JRJ > We used different control and data cables for the TU55 and the TU56 drives and observed the same track 3 bad behavior. The backplane appears to be in good shape. My scope had a little trouble looking at 10-15mV signals in differential mode using the math functions, but we looked at the head signals going into the track 3 amplifier, and they looked reasonable. The power supply voltages at the cards are within spec. The track amplifiers are supposed to be differential, so they should be fairly immune to power supply noise. We plan to connect a lab supply to the backplane near the track cards and adjust it slightly higher than the PDP-12 power supply. That should clean up any 60Hz noise on the power. Maybe that will help? We have swapped everything else between the tracks, including the logic analyzer probe, and the issue always stays with track 3. Maybe it is a backplane wiring problem? -- Michael Thompson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 13:29:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:29:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > We swapped the TU56 and TU55 drives between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. We Does the TU55 work correctly on the 8/I ? > The TU55 behaved a little better than the TU56, and sometimes would > actually boot OS/8. We continued chasing the issue and found glitches on > data channel 3. We have swapped every module and cable that relates to data What exactly do you mean by 'glitches'? Are these on a TTL level signal, an analogue output of the read amplifer, or what? Have you looked for glitches on the other data channels? > channel 3, but have not been able to fix the glitches. The glitches are > there with both the TU55 and the TU56, so the problem is in the TC12 > controller. IIRC this thing has 3 data channels, so is channel 3 on the outside of the head/tape? Could it be some external interference that happens to be picked up most strongly by that head winding? -tony From cube1 at charter.net Mon Oct 12 13:57:24 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:57:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561C0294.3000508@charter.net> On 10/12/2015 12:40 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:44:54 -0500 >> From: Jay Jaeger >> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM >> >> Don't forget about the other more remote possibilities: cables, >> backplane, bad wrap, supply voltages at the actual card(s) for the >> mis-behaving channel, etc. >> >> JRJ >> > > We used different control and data cables for the TU55 and the TU56 drives > and observed the same track 3 bad behavior. > > The backplane appears to be in good shape. > > My scope had a little trouble looking at 10-15mV signals in differential > mode using the math functions, but we looked at the head signals going into > the track 3 amplifier, and they looked reasonable. > > The power supply voltages at the cards are within spec. The track > amplifiers are supposed to be differential, so they should be fairly immune > to power supply noise. We plan to connect a lab supply to the backplane > near the track cards and adjust it slightly higher than the PDP-12 power > supply. That should clean up any 60Hz noise on the power. Maybe that will > help? > I had in mind the power to the cards in the PDP-12 itself, not the tape drive(s). No local sense in those days, with considerable voltage drop in the wiring. A bad wrap might add to that drop on the backplane itself. > We have swapped everything else between the tracks, including the logic > analyzer probe, and the issue always stays with track 3. Maybe it is a > backplane wiring problem? > It is a possibility not to ignore. The reason I asked is that at Wis. DOT we had an Amdahl 580 that was acting flaky - odd crashes without any apparent connection. The machine was new, so Wis. DOT threatened to send it back. Amdahl flew in something like 3 engineers from the Sunnyvale plant, and they along with the 2 local FE's and one CE went over the machine with magnifying glasses (literally), looking at everything. They finally found one amazingly tiny coax wire (imagine a coax cable about the diameter of a normal wire wrap wire) that had been nicked/kinked by being pinched against a frame at some point - took them almost all night to find it. They were happy but pretty "ripe" when I came into work the next morning. Based on that story, it occurred to me that corrosion on a wrap on the PDP-12 backplane could be an issue. The other possibility that occurs to me is a timing glitch - where two signals change state at the same time and then are sampled too close to that time, resulting in a signal being clocked into a latch the wrong state. Those can be really hard to track down. JRJ From jason at smbfc.net Mon Oct 12 13:55:43 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:55:43 -0700 Subject: VAX in action Message-ID: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the bin. --Jason From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Mon Oct 12 14:27:01 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:27:01 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <4CC4408B-B4F7-4E7F-B969-598117859146@VMSSoftware.com> I have a good idea who this is would you please tell him Sue says hi! thanks, > On Oct 12, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. > > It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) > > He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the bin. > > --Jason Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Mon Oct 12 14:27:01 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:27:01 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <4CC4408B-B4F7-4E7F-B969-598117859146@VMSSoftware.com> I have a good idea who this is would you please tell him Sue says hi! thanks, > On Oct 12, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. > > It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) > > He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the bin. > > --Jason Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 12 14:29:19 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:29:19 -0400 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <20151012185129.A789A2073EAB@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> <20151012185129.A789A2073EAB@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Oct 12, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote on Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:44:58 -0400: > ... >> The real problem is that you had no way to be sure, no way to verify, >> that the machine was recording your vote and would accurately report >> it later. It might just as easily report numbers that someone had told >> it to report, not connected to any reality. How would you know? If >> anyone were to question this, how would you prove that the count is >> honest? > > This issue was raised, so the third time these machines were used in a > national election there was a pilot with modified machines that printed > their results so that the voter could see (but not touch) and then > dropped the paper version into an urn. Observers from all the different > parties could use the paper trail to verify the numbers presented > electronically by the machines. After that single trial, TSE declared > that the result was that a paper trail was proved to be unnecessary and > caused delays and added expense, so those machines were never seen again > and elections in Brazil have been paper free ever since. Cute. So that demonstrates that the results of that one election are accurate, but it tells you nothing about the later ones. And the claim that the paper is "unnecessary" shows either ignorance, or dishonest intent, on the part of the person making that claim. After all, you have no way to know whether the later machines are still honest, just because the ones used in that one election were. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 12 14:41:20 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:41:20 -0400 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <20151012185130.92EA52073EAE@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> <20151012185130.92EA52073EAE@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <561C0CE0.6020507@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-12 2:51 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Paul Koning wrote on Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:44:58 -0400: >>> On Oct 9, 2015, at 5:39 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >>> [noticed voter ID terminal had cable to voting machines!] >> >> That's not the real problem. > > Indeed, not *the* problem but just *a* problem I noticed while still in > line to get into the voting station. > >> The real problem is that you had no way to be sure, no way to verify, >> that the machine was recording your vote and would accurately report >> it later. It might just as easily report numbers that someone had told >> it to report, not connected to any reality. How would you know? If >> anyone were to question this, how would you prove that the count is >> honest? > > This issue was raised, so the third time these machines were used in a > national election there was a pilot with modified machines that printed > their results so that the voter could see (but not touch) and then > dropped the paper version into an urn. Observers from all the different > parties could use the paper trail to verify the numbers presented > electronically by the machines. After that single trial, TSE declared > that the result was that a paper trail was proved to be unnecessary and > caused delays and added expense, so those machines were never seen again > and elections in Brazil have been paper free ever since. Leaving the vulnerability. > > There are several aspects of voting culture in Brazil that are quite > different ... > > -- Jecel > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 12 16:10:50 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old Tekky manual FTGH Message-ID: <201510122110.RAA22971@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> I have a Tektronix "OPERATORS' MANUAL" for "CATHODE-RAY OSCILLOSCOPES TYPE 535 AND 545" (those are quotes from the front cover) which says it "applies to standard Type 535 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 6045 and 7552, to rack-mounted Type 535 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers 4048 and 4072, to standard Type 545 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 5946 and 7400, and to rack-mounted Type 545 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 1740 and 1775". (I suspect there is a "between" missing before "4048".) It is a small 45-page booklet and is definitely a user's manual; it is not a repair document, not even what tony calls a boardswapper guide. It apparently got wet at some point in its history; the first and last few pages are stained green, presumably from the covers (which are green). (Not stained to the point of illegibility.) I do not have any device it applies to, do not really expect to, and am inclined to doubt I would need it even if I did, so I would cheerfully pass it along to someone who actually wants it. It's currently in Ottawa (Ontario, Canada); I could pop it in the post easily enough. Anyone? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 12 14:27:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:27:33 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Cool! I know of at least one "large state university" here in Michigan (not U-M, unfortunately) that still uses OpenVMS (on Itanium) extensively on their core enterprise systems. Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work > (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some > purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. > > It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't > come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that > they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I > asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a > tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) > > He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC > hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the > bin. > > --Jason > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 12 14:27:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:27:33 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Cool! I know of at least one "large state university" here in Michigan (not U-M, unfortunately) that still uses OpenVMS (on Itanium) extensively on their core enterprise systems. Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work > (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some > purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. > > It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't > come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that > they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I > asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a > tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) > > He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC > hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the > bin. > > --Jason > From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 12 17:12:07 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:12:07 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? Message-ID: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> Hey there, I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV Typewriter (pic here: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zpssu7yy ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the unit that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended up? I've asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the keytops that unit used or something close (I understand they were made by Mechanical Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or three TVTs and I thought after I get the prototype replica done I might go for the cover unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But I understand those keytops were kind of a one off deal for that article. Thanks!! Brad From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Oct 12 19:19:27 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > Cool! I know of at least one "large state university" here in Michigan (not > U-M, unfortunately) that still uses OpenVMS (on Itanium) extensively on > their core enterprise systems. Please don't CC: both cctalk and cctech. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 19:37:46 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:37:46 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: If he needs any parts, let me know. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > I was just speaking with a guy who works in the physics department at work > (A large State University) . He was looking for a 68pin SCSI card for some > purpose, which I was able to find for him in my pile-o-stuff. > > It turns out he's trying to revive one of their VMS machines which didn't > come back after a power outage a couple weeks ago. Then I learn that > they're still using a VAX to run their freakin' particle accelerator, I > asked if I could see that stuff in action. So, I'm going to go over for a > tour sometime in the next couple weeks. :) > > He also mentioned that they're starting to transition off the old DEC > hardware -- this is also my chance to be sure it doesn't just end up in the > bin. > > --Jason > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 22:16:40 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:16:40 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. A little yellow, no burns on screen, nice keyboards. I'll be picking up more later this week.\\ On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'll be picking up a huge lot of DEC and some DG keyboards( no part > numbers yet) over the next few days. I know what some of the DEC gear is > and the condition of it, but not of the VTs. I would expect some power > supply problems, but have no idea of tube rot/burn or cosmetics, except > that all are complete. > > I don't really want to have to ship any, but I have reached out to one > list member and will ship to him any possibly others. Boxing them, putting > them in a gaylord and putting them on a pallet is the best I can come up > with. This will be costly and labor intense, and if I have to ship, with > one exception, I would prefer 4 to 6 units at a time. > > When I get home in a week or so I'll be putting out a list of unibus > options which include the backplane and boards- like DB11-A bus repeater, > DR11B, DH11s, a lot of com options, RH11, etc. > > Any questions, please contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Mon Oct 12 22:32:02 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:32:02 +1100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen printer could you take some pictures please. Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 22:37:00 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:37:00 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, sounds like your memory is working better than mine. He thinks he has one with a printer and I will try to grab it. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams < nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. > > Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen > printer could you take some pictures please. > > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Oct 12 20:16:36 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:16:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: tony duell Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:29 AM >> We swapped the TU56 and TU55 drives between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. We > Does the TU55 work correctly on the 8/I ? >> The TU55 behaved a little better than the TU56, and sometimes would actually >> boot OS/8. We continued chasing the issue and found glitches on data channel >> 3. We have swapped every module and cable that relates to data > What exactly do you mean by 'glitches'? Are these on a TTL level signal, an > analogue output of the read amplifer, or what? > Have you looked for glitches on the other data channels? >> channel 3, but have not been able to fix the glitches. The glitches are >> there with both the TU55 and the TU56, so the problem is in the TC12 >> controller. > IIRC this thing has 3 data channels, so is channel 3 on the outside of the > head/tape? Could it be some external interference that happens to be picked > up most strongly by that head winding? DECtape and LINCtape (same medium, wound opposite directions on the reel) are 10 tracks across. These are pairwise connected serially to produce 5 signals, called T (timing), M (mark), and 1, 2, and 3. The T tracks are outermost, the M tracks are next inward from the T tracks, and the tracks making up 1, 2, & 3 are non-adjacent: T M 1 2 3 1' 2' 3' M' T' The M tracks are longitudinally encoded (6-bit values chosen such that they read the same as NRZ backwards and forwards for DECtape, 4-bit values for LINCtape) to predefine blocks (cf. disk sectors) for data. So neither of the tracks which make up channel 3 is on the outside of the tape. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 12 19:31:17 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:31:17 -0400 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: That keyboard does indeed look pretty far out ... it must have been ... "interesting" ... to type on :O Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Brad wrote: > Hey there, > > > > I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV > Typewriter (pic here: > > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zpssu7yy > ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the unit > that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended up? I've > asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. > > > > I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the keytops > that > unit used or something close (I understand they were made by Mechanical > Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or three TVTs and I > thought after I get the prototype replica done I might go for the cover > unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But I understand those keytops > were kind of a one off deal for that article. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Mon Oct 12 19:33:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:33:33 -0400 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Oh, sorry, normally I prune it when that happens but it must have slipped by ... they have us using GMail here at U-M and it's not my favorite mail client ... I will also lay the blame for my lack of inline quoting at the feet of same; GMail makes a total hash of it. Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Sean Caron wrote: > > Cool! I know of at least one "large state university" here in Michigan (not >> U-M, unfortunately) that still uses OpenVMS (on Itanium) extensively on >> their core enterprise systems. >> > > Please don't CC: both cctalk and cctech. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 12 22:53:11 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:53:11 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561C8027.1080408@pico-systems.com> On 10/12/2015 10:32 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. > Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen > printer could you take some pictures please. > > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. > I stripped some VT-52s (or possibly VT-55s) a LONG time ago. (They were in a dumpster and not complete at the time, so don't yell sacrilege!) But, I do remember the printer. Yes, I believe it did burn off the silver to make a black mark. Jon From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 23:04:38 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:04:38 -0300 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Looks like (but not exactely) Sinclair QL keys :) These can be easily done in 3d printing 2015-10-12 21:31 GMT-03:00 Sean Caron : > That keyboard does indeed look pretty far out ... it must have been ... > "interesting" ... to type on :O > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Brad wrote: > > > Hey there, > > > > > > > > I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV > > Typewriter (pic here: > > > > > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zpssu7yy > > ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the unit > > that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended up? > I've > > asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. > > > > > > > > I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the keytops > > that > > unit used or something close (I understand they were made by Mechanical > > Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or three TVTs and I > > thought after I get the prototype replica done I might go for the cover > > unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But I understand those > keytops > > were kind of a one off deal for that article. > > > > > > > > Thanks!! > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cctalk at fahimi.net Mon Oct 12 23:13:32 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:13:32 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons Message-ID: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> Hello all, I am trying to replace some rubber feet on a couple of items and it appears the OEM used 3M Bumpons. I've been trying to find a source that will sell small quantities but all I can find is one box minimum (which is a couple of thousand!). I am willing to buy as much as a whole sheet but prefer less if possible. Looking for models: SJ5780 and SJ5023 both in Grey (not black). The SJ5023 is available on eBay but not the round SJ5780s (in Grey). Any help is appreciated. TIA! -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 12 23:18:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:18:54 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> On 10/12/2015 09:04 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Looks like (but not exactely) Sinclair QL keys :) > These can be easily done in 3d printing These are late 60s Micro Switch modular keys. I believe that the tops attach to the keys using a short tubular shaft. So pretty simple to duplicate even with casting resin. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Oct 12 23:44:16 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:44:16 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> Message-ID: www.digikey.com -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Mon Oct 12 23:53:33 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:53:33 +0200 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561C8E4D.8050305@bluewin.ch> On 13.10.2015 05:32, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. > > Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen > printer could you take some pictures please. > > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. > I'm seeing one right now, as my VT52 has such an unit. Never seen one in action though. I can put up some pics if desired, let me know what you need. Jos Dreesen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 00:02:39 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 05:02:39 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen > printer could you take some pictures please. > > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. I have one. Well, in a VT55, but that is a VT52 with a graph-plotting board, so I guess it counts :-) It appears to be electrolytic. You have to keep the paper damp (there is a wick inside that you put water on. The paper goes between a helical electrode on a spinning drum and a straight strip, the latter being replaced when you fit a new roll of paper. Whether it is some chemical in the paper that changes colour, or metal depositied from the electrode I don't know (the former seems more likely). I have never got it to work. Whether that is due to electronic problems (that I can fix) or chemical problems with the old paper (which I can't) I don't yet know. -tony From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 00:05:51 2015 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:05:51 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> Message-ID: http://www.channelcomp.com/SJ5780-3MTM-BumponTM-Protective-Products-SJ5780-Black_p_104186.html http://www.tgoldkamp.com/3m-153-bumpon-153-protective-products-sj5780-black.html http://www.tgoldkamp.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=sj5023 On 10/12/15, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > www.digikey.com > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > -- Chris Halarewich From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 13 00:08:21 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 06:08:21 +0100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> The VT52 printer used a very odd system. A spiral wire on a drum sat on one side of the paper and the other a sraight edge. So you could scan a line at a time. The paper must have been treated with something or other. A great project for somebody to try and make. Very simple mechanics, One turn of the drum = advance one scan line. Rod Smallwood DEC Terminals Product Line 1973 On 13/10/2015 04:16, Paul Anderson wrote: > I picked up a few of the VT52s today and they looked pretty good. A little > yellow, no burns on screen, nice keyboards. I'll be picking up more later > this week.\\ > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I'll be picking up a huge lot of DEC and some DG keyboards( no part >> numbers yet) over the next few days. I know what some of the DEC gear is >> and the condition of it, but not of the VTs. I would expect some power >> supply problems, but have no idea of tube rot/burn or cosmetics, except >> that all are complete. >> >> I don't really want to have to ship any, but I have reached out to one >> list member and will ship to him any possibly others. Boxing them, putting >> them in a gaylord and putting them on a pallet is the best I can come up >> with. This will be costly and labor intense, and if I have to ship, with >> one exception, I would prefer 4 to 6 units at a time. >> >> When I get home in a week or so I'll be putting out a list of unibus >> options which include the backplane and boards- like DB11-A bus repeater, >> DR11B, DH11s, a lot of com options, RH11, etc. >> >> Any questions, please contact me off list. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 13 00:13:24 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:13:24 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> Message-ID: <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> > www.digikey.com Mark, I was only able to find them by the box at Digikey. Do they sell them in lower quantities? Thanks. -Ali From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Oct 13 00:20:14 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:20:14 +1100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> References: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jos, Tony and Rod - you've neatly highlighted why I found the screen printer so curious and fascinating, an oddball feature in the terminal world and seemingly a simple mechanism to render the screen. If anyone with access to one has the interest and time I'd appreciate pictures and any additional detail of how it works; if you can make one print, pictures of what it can produce would be great too. It has always struck me that VT52 screen printer has never been fully described or experienced, and I don't know of any other display devices that had it built-in (I'm ignoring later devices like the Sony screen-printers that rendered to thermal paper etc.) Some years ago I expended some effort and scoured the internet for a picture of the output and I vaguely recall I found a single image, but it appears I filed it too well and now can't find it. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 00:24:04 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:24:04 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> My understanding is these were custom keytops ordered as part of the 'low cost keyboard' article that appeared in RE. According to RE, the keyboard on the cover unit was built using the method Don described, including hand made (and very laboriously made) switches. Definitely not microswitch as far as I've read. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 9:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/12/2015 09:04 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Looks like (but not exactely) Sinclair QL keys :) These can be easily > done in 3d printing These are late 60s Micro Switch modular keys. I believe that the tops attach to the keys using a short tubular shaft. So pretty simple to duplicate even with casting resin. --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 13 00:40:33 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:40:33 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> Message-ID: <45CD545F-BDB7-4B8C-A814-D755BEA58644@nf6x.net> > On Oct 12, 2015, at 22:13, Ali wrote: > >> www.digikey.com > > Mark, > > I was only able to find them by the box at Digikey. Do they sell them in > lower quantities? Thanks. Ah, I think I see the problem. They sell the ones they stock in small quantities. The ones with the huge minimum order quantities are non-stocked variants that they would need to special order from 3M, and even 3M might not stock those variants on the shelves. So a big minimum order would be needed for 3M to fire up the machines for a production run. I didn't research the part numbers you are looking for carefully before making my suggestion. Sorry about that! For example, the SJ5780 is a metric size. Looking at Digi-Key, Mouser and McMaster-Carr, it looks like inch sizes are much more commonly stocked here in the US. You may have a much shorter search if you might be satisfied with similar functional replacements rather than exact ones. But maybe you'll get lucky, and somebody will point out that the ones you want are common variants in some other region, and you just need to order from an overseas Digi-Key equivalent? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 01:10:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:10:05 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> On 10/12/2015 10:24 PM, Brad wrote: > My understanding is these were custom keytops ordered as part of the > 'low cost keyboard' article that appeared in RE. According to RE, > the keyboard on the cover unit was built using the method Don > described, including hand made (and very laboriously made) switches. > Definitely not microswitch as far as I've read. Okay, now I'm confused. The photo linked to is what you're building, using Micro Switch assemblies, but that's not what you're talking about. So, how about a photo of exactly what you're looking for? --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 13 01:15:55 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:15:55 -0400 Subject: Old Tekky manual FTGH Message-ID: <3c85a.6a0a11de.434dfb9b@aol.com> Hi Mouse - Yes we know that 545 scope and have one in storage to be refurbished If you can get it to we guarantee it will be loved and perch in the display with the display of the scope. Many Thanks in advance - Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) In a message dated 10/12/2015 2:10:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG writes: I have a Tektronix "OPERATORS' MANUAL" for "CATHODE-RAY OSCILLOSCOPES TYPE 535 AND 545" (those are quotes from the front cover) which says it "applies to standard Type 535 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 6045 and 7552, to rack-mounted Type 535 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers 4048 and 4072, to standard Type 545 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 5946 and 7400, and to rack-mounted Type 545 Oscilloscopes having serial numbers between 1740 and 1775". (I suspect there is a "between" missing before "4048".) It is a small 45-page booklet and is definitely a user's manual; it is not a repair document, not even what tony calls a boardswapper guide. It apparently got wet at some point in its history; the first and last few pages are stained green, presumably from the covers (which are green). (Not stained to the point of illegibility.) I do not have any device it applies to, do not really expect to, and am inclined to doubt I would need it even if I did, so I would cheerfully pass it along to someone who actually wants it. It's currently in Ottawa (Ontario, Canada); I could pop it in the post easily enough. Anyone? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 01:20:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:20:58 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> Message-ID: <561CA2CA.8040204@sydex.com> On 10/12/2015 10:13 PM, Ali wrote: > I was only able to find them by the box at Digikey. Do they sell them > in lower quantities? Thanks. Do they have to be 3M? i.e., Do you see anything close here? https://www.westfloridacomponents.com/RubberFeet.html --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 13 01:34:04 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:34:04 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <561CA2CA.8040204@sydex.com> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> <561CA2CA.8040204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <018e01d10581$28b62200$7a226600$@net> > Do they have to be 3M? i.e., Do you see anything close here? > > https://www.westfloridacomponents.com/RubberFeet.html Chuck, If I skip the 3M portion requirement the I and have found replacements for reasonable price and quantity here: http://www.bumperspecialties.com/. I am not sure if it is a patent issue or what but the 3M parts are much less tapered. Specifically while both the 3M and the clones had a 0.81"x0.81" base the top of the feet are much smaller on the clones. The 3M parts are 0.563"x0.563"while the clones are 0.400"x0.400". The original parts had the 0.563" top base measurement. If I cannot find the 3M in reasonable quantity then I will go with the clone close match. -Ali From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 01:42:57 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:42:57 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick and having to wait for the paper to dry. It was a PITA, but being able to do screen shots was amazing. The only other terminal I worked with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 01:53:51 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:53:51 -0700 Subject: ISO: Manual for Fujitsu M2372K SMD drive Message-ID: <561CAA7F.2070507@gmail.com> Subject line covers it; the M2372K manual isn't on Bitsavers (the 2382K is, but it's significantly different) and all I've found is this covering the basics, and I'm not 100% sure it's correct: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/fujitsu/M2372K-824MB-8-0-FH-HSMD.html#.VhyRlbTFsls Anyone have this manual? Can you confirm that the settings listed on stason.org are valid? I'm trying to get this drive to format using an Emulex UD33 (UNIBUS SMD) controller, and I'm not having much luck. (I'm also not certain that the 2372K isn't too new for the controller; another place a manual would be of immense help.) Thanks, Josh From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 02:26:21 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:26:21 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> Yeah sorry.. wasn't clear on that one I guess. The cover unit is this guy: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Cover_Sep73_640.jpg I'm just curious if anyone out there knows what happened to it. Seems like the kind of thing that would have been preserved. I very much doubt I'd be able to find those keytops. I don't even know if that unit was fully functional or mostly a cover prop. The keytops appear to all have extra symbols. I've seen early 70s keyboards that come close but not quite. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/12/2015 10:24 PM, Brad wrote: > My understanding is these were custom keytops ordered as part of the > 'low cost keyboard' article that appeared in RE. According to RE, the > keyboard on the cover unit was built using the method Don described, > including hand made (and very laboriously made) switches. > Definitely not microswitch as far as I've read. Okay, now I'm confused. The photo linked to is what you're building, using Micro Switch assemblies, but that's not what you're talking about. So, how about a photo of exactly what you're looking for? --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 02:32:25 2015 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:32:25 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <018e01d10581$28b62200$7a226600$@net> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> <561CA2CA.8040204@sydex.com> <018e01d10581$28b62200$7a226600$@net> Message-ID: http://www.tgoldkamp.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=sj5023 http://www.tgoldkamp.com/3m-153-bumpon-153-protective-products-sj5780-black.html On 10/12/15, Ali wrote: >> Do they have to be 3M? i.e., Do you see anything close here? >> >> https://www.westfloridacomponents.com/RubberFeet.html > > Chuck, > > If I skip the 3M portion requirement the I and have found replacements for > reasonable price and quantity here: http://www.bumperspecialties.com/. > > I am not sure if it is a patent issue or what but the 3M parts are much > less > tapered. Specifically while both the 3M and the clones had a 0.81"x0.81" > base the top of the feet are much smaller on the clones. The 3M parts are > 0.563"x0.563"while the clones are 0.400"x0.400". The original parts had the > 0.563" top base measurement. > > If I cannot find the 3M in reasonable quantity then I will go with the > clone > close match. > > -Ali > > > -- Chris Halarewich From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 02:35:49 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:35:49 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <006401d10589$c89bb0c0$59d31240$@yahoo.ca> Come to think of now.. the keytops kind of resemble those on my CT-1024. Similar height, same giant 0 key. My CT-1024 keys are black and lack the extra 'functions' marked on each key though. Maybe SWTPC was buying from Mechanical Enterprises too. Reading closely from my magazine cover.. the extra 'functions' on each key include symbols like VT LF and DLE -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:26 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? Yeah sorry.. wasn't clear on that one I guess. The cover unit is this guy: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Cover_Sep73_640.jpg I'm just curious if anyone out there knows what happened to it. Seems like the kind of thing that would have been preserved. I very much doubt I'd be able to find those keytops. I don't even know if that unit was fully functional or mostly a cover prop. The keytops appear to all have extra symbols. I've seen early 70s keyboards that come close but not quite. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 11:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/12/2015 10:24 PM, Brad wrote: > My understanding is these were custom keytops ordered as part of the > 'low cost keyboard' article that appeared in RE. According to RE, the > keyboard on the cover unit was built using the method Don described, > including hand made (and very laboriously made) switches. > Definitely not microswitch as far as I've read. Okay, now I'm confused. The photo linked to is what you're building, using Micro Switch assemblies, but that's not what you're talking about. So, how about a photo of exactly what you're looking for? --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 13 03:05:38 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:05:38 +0100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561CBB52.1070805@btinternet.com> I remember getting a laugh at one product training. I got asked to name a unique feature of the VT52. My answer "Built in toilet paper dispenser" On 13/10/2015 06:20, Nigel Williams wrote: > Thanks Jos, Tony and Rod - you've neatly highlighted why I found the > screen printer so curious and fascinating, an oddball feature in the > terminal world and seemingly a simple mechanism to render the screen. > > If anyone with access to one has the interest and time I'd appreciate > pictures and any additional detail of how it works; if you can make > one print, pictures of what it can produce would be great too. > > It has always struck me that VT52 screen printer has never been fully > described or experienced, and I don't know of any other display > devices that had it built-in (I'm ignoring later devices like the Sony > screen-printers that rendered to thermal paper etc.) > > Some years ago I expended some effort and scoured the internet for a > picture of the output and I vaguely recall I found a single image, but > it appears I filed it too well and now can't find it. -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Oct 13 03:09:05 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 01:09:05 -0700 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> <018d01d10575$e3a09700$aae1c500$@net> <561CA2CA.8040204@sydex.com> <018e01d10581$28b62200$7a226600$@net> Message-ID: <019701d1058e$6e8bb6c0$4ba32440$@net> > http://www.tgoldkamp.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=sj5023 > > > http://www.tgoldkamp.com/3m-153-bumpon-153-protective-products-sj5780- > black.html Chris, Thanks but the minimum order on those is 1000 at least. -Ali From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 13 01:11:52 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:11:52 -0400 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? Message-ID: <3c7fd.6de9c35e.434dfaa8@aol.com> unique keys? I am not sure of that Unless he lettered in CTL looked like weird Mohawk data sciences keys or something.... I have seen this type of keyboard before... or some other place in a scrap environment post 1799..... Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 10/12/2015 10:01:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, unclefalter at yahoo.ca writes: Hey there, I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV Typewriter (pic here: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zpssu7yy ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the unit that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended up? I've asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the keytops that unit used or something close (I understand they were made by Mechanical Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or three TVTs and I thought after I get the prototype replica done I might go for the cover unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But I understand those keytops were kind of a one off deal for that article. Thanks!! Brad From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 13 03:15:05 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:15:05 +0100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561CBD89.8060605@btinternet.com> Its called a Hellschreiber http:// www.nonstopsystems/radio/pdf-hell/hell-g5xb.pdf Regards Rod On 13/10/2015 06:20, Nigel Williams wrote: > Thanks Jos, Tony and Rod - you've neatly highlighted why I found the > screen printer so curious and fascinating, an oddball feature in the > terminal world and seemingly a simple mechanism to render the screen. > > If anyone with access to one has the interest and time I'd appreciate > pictures and any additional detail of how it works; if you can make > one print, pictures of what it can produce would be great too. > > It has always struck me that VT52 screen printer has never been fully > described or experienced, and I don't know of any other display > devices that had it built-in (I'm ignoring later devices like the Sony > screen-printers that rendered to thermal paper etc.) > > Some years ago I expended some effort and scoured the internet for a > picture of the output and I vaguely recall I found a single image, but > it appears I filed it too well and now can't find it. -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Oct 13 05:32:37 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:32:37 +1100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561CBD89.8060605@btinternet.com> References: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> <561CBD89.8060605@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <86F82469-9D22-40A0-A3A7-AB1CA631A238@retrocomputingtasmania.com> > On 13 Oct 2015, at 7:15 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Its called a Hellschreiber http:// www.nonstopsystems/radio/pdf-hell/hell-g5xb.pdf Fixed URL: http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-hell/hell-g5xb.pdf From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 13 07:11:41 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:11:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Comstar Process Control Compiler References: <64119836.3099735.1444738301104.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64119836.3099735.1444738301104.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'm looking for any info on the Comstar Process Control Compiler. The only thing I could find of any real value was this PDF. http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1975/5083/00/50830033.pdf I would like to try and get this working again. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 13 08:29:34 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 logo panel Message-ID: <20151013132934.9DC4B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > yes, please take a nice picture of it! ... The higher the resolution > the better! OK, I scanned it (I prefer scanning to pictures, as there is almost inevitably distortion when using a lens), at 300 dpi. The whole thing wouldn't fit in my A3 scanner, but I got the majority of it, and the part that's not shown is just the plain two-colour band. Available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/CanadaPanel.jpg and I've also added it to my 'PDP-11 resources page', here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html Also, I have recently scanned in the front indictor panel for the 11/55 and 11/70 (the later one, with the blue/blue colour scheme), and those can be found on that page too, along with drawings of the basic 40-45-70 panel (only the on/off switch, etc, locations differ) and the basic 45-50-55 panel (with on/off switch and selector switch holes added); those have also been added to that page. I'd like to encourage people with other front panels (I myself am particularly interested in those for the 11/45, RF11, RK11-C and RP11-C) to scan them too, for people who are interested in doing reproductions. I can host the images, for people who don't have that capability. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 09:54:46 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:54:46 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> > On Oct 12, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > ... > The M tracks are longitudinally encoded (6-bit values chosen such that they > read the same as NRZ backwards and forwards for DECtape, 4-bit values for > LINCtape) to predefine blocks (cf. disk sectors) for data. More precisely: it's Manchester encoding, not NRZ. The result is that mark track codes are complemented and reversed end for end if you read them in the opposite order. The code choices are such that this process (obverse complement) produces another code word with the right meaning for this spot of the tape in that direction. So "in the data field of the block" reads the same in both directions. But "block start" in one direction reads as "block end" in the other, which is just the result you want. The DECtape patent (3,387,293 -- on bitsavers among other places) describes this very nicely. paul From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 13 10:07:50 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:07:50 -0500 Subject: Computers in Election Vigils - take two In-Reply-To: <20151012185130.3674C2073EAD@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <561700E5.20702@sydex.com> <1444389891.15855.10.camel@student.his.se> <5617F144.2070400@flippers.com> <20151009215422.284222073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> <20151012185130.3674C2073EAD@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20151013150750.GB12099@lonesome.com> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 03:51:14PM -0300, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > There are a lot of people who would like to buy people's votes It's a good thing this does not happen in any other countries . :-) mcl From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 10:16:54 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:16:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: Did you ever speak with anyone at System Source (Bob) about their PDP 12? Maybe they'd be interested in collaborating. http://museum.syssrc.com/ On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 12, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Rich Alderson > wrote: > > > > ... > > The M tracks are longitudinally encoded (6-bit values chosen such that > they > > read the same as NRZ backwards and forwards for DECtape, 4-bit values for > > LINCtape) to predefine blocks (cf. disk sectors) for data. > > More precisely: it's Manchester encoding, not NRZ. The result is that > mark track codes are complemented and reversed end for end if you read them > in the opposite order. > > The code choices are such that this process (obverse complement) produces > another code word with the right meaning for this spot of the tape in that > direction. So "in the data field of the block" reads the same in both > directions. But "block start" in one direction reads as "block end" in the > other, which is just the result you want. > > The DECtape patent (3,387,293 -- on bitsavers among other places) > describes this very nicely. > > paul > > -- Bill From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 10:19:51 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:19:51 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> On 10/13/2015 12:02 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> >> Paul, if you come across any VT52s that have the built-in screen >> printer could you take some pictures please. >> >> Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and >> burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. > > I have one. Well, in a VT55, but that is a VT52 with a graph-plotting board, so > I guess it counts :-) > > It appears to be electrolytic. You have to keep the paper damp (there is a wick > inside that you put water on. The paper goes between a helical electrode on > a spinning drum and a straight strip, the latter being replaced when you fit a new > roll of paper. Whether it is some chemical in the paper that changes colour, or metal > depositied from the electrode I don't know (the former seems more likely). > > I have never got it to work. Whether that is due to electronic problems (that I can > fix) or chemical problems with the old paper (which I can't) I don't yet know. > > -tony > I had a little Comprint printer in the 1970s/1980s that used something sort of like this. The paper was aluminum coated, thus conductive. The head was a high voltage electrode unit that burned away the aluminum layer. (I can't imagine any kind of deposition technology in that era...). The head flew back and forth really fast, doing one pixel-line at a time. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 10:22:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:22:45 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <006401d10589$c89bb0c0$59d31240$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> <006401d10589$c89bb0c0$59d31240$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> Brad, I'm going to say that it will be impossible to identify the keyboard used from a photo. The issue is that all sorts of computer equipment used gray key bodies with white letters. For example, here's a Control DD60 console display unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6000_series#/media/File:CDC_6600_console.JPG GRI (George Risk Industries) probably made a jillion gray-keyed keyboards for various manufacturers. IBM used gray keys, Univac used gray keys, CDC used gray keys...it's pretty much impossible to say. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 10:25:36 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:25:36 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> References: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > On 10/13/2015 12:02 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> ... >> It appears to be electrolytic. You have to keep the paper damp (there is a wick >> inside that you put water on. The paper goes between a helical electrode on >> a spinning drum and a straight strip, the latter being replaced when you fit a new >> roll of paper. Whether it is some chemical in the paper that changes colour, or metal >> depositied from the electrode I don't know (the former seems more likely). >> >> I have never got it to work. Whether that is due to electronic problems (that I can >> fix) or chemical problems with the old paper (which I can't) I don't yet know. >> >> -tony >> > > I had a little Comprint printer in the 1970s/1980s that used something > sort of like this. The paper was aluminum coated, thus conductive. The > head was a high voltage electrode unit that burned away the aluminum > layer. (I can't imagine any kind of deposition technology in that > era...). The head flew back and forth really fast, doing one pixel-line > at a time. There are all sorts of oddball printing technologies from back then. I remember one (from a lab instrument, not a printer or terminal) that used aluminum-coated paper, but the coating was on the back of the paper. The writing was done with a high voltage electrode just as you describe, but the result was that the sparks would scorch the paper and leave a thin black mark. I don't remember what the VT55 used. Tony's comment does sound plausible; I distinctly remember "electrolytic" printing technology though no details. I wonder if it might help to take a bit of the paper to a competent chemist for analysis, to find out what the active ingredient is. That might help give a clue what is needed to make it work. paul From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 10:29:21 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:29:21 -0500 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561D2351.4020901@charter.net> On 10/12/2015 5:12 PM, Brad wrote: > > I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV > Typewriter (pic here: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zpssu7yy > ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the unit > that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended up? I've > asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. > > I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the keytops that > unit used or something close (I understand they were made by Mechanical > Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or three TVTs and I > thought after I get the prototype replica done I might go for the cover > unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But I understand those keytops > were kind of a one off deal for that article. > I actually have one of those funky keyboards shown in the link quoted above on photobucket.com that I acquired around the time of the article for my TVT - but this is not what was shown on the cover page of the magazine, as later posts have pointed out. JRJ From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 13 10:29:15 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151013152915.GD12099@lonesome.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:16:54AM -0400, william degnan wrote: > Did you ever speak with anyone at System Source (Bob) about their PDP 12? > Maybe they'd be interested in collaborating. http://museum.syssrc.com/ I highly recommend everyone pull up the Univac 490 (1963) page and look in the "gallery" for a comparison of the Raspberry Pi and the 490. Someone buy Bob a $beverage for me. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 13 10:29:15 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151013152915.GD12099@lonesome.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:16:54AM -0400, william degnan wrote: > Did you ever speak with anyone at System Source (Bob) about their PDP 12? > Maybe they'd be interested in collaborating. http://museum.syssrc.com/ I highly recommend everyone pull up the Univac 490 (1963) page and look in the "gallery" for a comparison of the Raspberry Pi and the 490. Someone buy Bob a $beverage for me. mcl From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 10:30:21 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:30:21 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > There are all sorts of oddball printing technologies from back then. I remember > one (from a lab instrument, not a printer or terminal) that used aluminum-coated > paper, but the coating was on the back of the paper. The writing was done with > a high voltage electrode just as you describe, but the result was that the sparks > would scorch the paper and leave a thin black mark. That reminds me of a printer I worked with in 1986 or so, but this one had multi-layer paper that could be selectively burned for true 16-level grey-scale printing. It was expensive, but the customer needed to render ultrasonic scans in high fidelity, and even a laser printers wouldn't work in this application because the sample size/pixel size was too small for that to be effective. These days, an inkjet printer could probably dither small enough black dots to be a cost-effective alternative, or perhaps a 1200dpi laser printer. -ethan > > I don't remember what the VT55 used. Tony's comment does sound plausible; I distinctly remember "electrolytic" printing technology though no details. I wonder if it might help to take a bit of the paper to a competent chemist for analysis, to find out what the active ingredient is. That might help give a clue what is needed to make it work. > > paul > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 13 10:37:00 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:37:00 -0500 Subject: Source for 3M Bumpons In-Reply-To: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> References: <018601d1056d$86f0b0b0$94d21210$@net> Message-ID: <561D251C.3090005@pico-systems.com> On 10/12/2015 11:13 PM, Ali wrote: > Hello all, > > I am trying to replace some rubber feet on a couple of items and it appears > the OEM used 3M Bumpons. I've been trying to find a source that will sell > small quantities but all I can find is one box minimum (which is a couple of > thousand!). I am willing to buy as much as a whole sheet but prefer less if > possible. Looking for models: > Digi-Key sells rubber feet in small quantities. Just type "rubber feet" into their search engine, and you get 216 items. Most are sheets with multiple feet that can be peeled off a backing. You can choose styles (round, square) height and width. Jon From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 10:48:36 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:48:36 +0200 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <20151013132934.9DC4B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151013132934.9DC4B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:29 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: H960 logo panel > From: Henk Gooijen > yes, please take a nice picture of it! ... The higher the resolution > the better! OK, I scanned it (I prefer scanning to pictures, as there is almost inevitably distortion when using a lens), at 300 dpi. The whole thing wouldn't fit in my A3 scanner, but I got the majority of it, and the part that's not shown is just the plain two-colour band. Available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/CanadaPanel.jpg and I've also added it to my 'PDP-11 resources page', here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html Also, I have recently scanned in the front indictor panel for the 11/55 and 11/70 (the later one, with the blue/blue colour scheme), and those can be found on that page too, along with drawings of the basic 40-45-70 panel (only the on/off switch, etc, locations differ) and the basic 45-50-55 panel (with on/off switch and selector switch holes added); those have also been added to that page. I'd like to encourage people with other front panels (I myself am particularly interested in those for the 11/45, RF11, RK11-C and RP11-C) to scan them too, for people who are interested in doing reproductions. I can host the images, for people who don't have that capability. Noel ========= Nice scan Noell. I will probably download everything ... in my experience, websites with "/~xxxx/" in it seem to disappear after "some" time :-/ I have probably all PDP-11 models (except the PDP-11/50), but I don't think a scanner can carry the weight of a fully filled H960 :-) And no, I am not going to disassemble just for a scan. I could take pictures, but as you say, edges will warp a little. - Henk, PA8PDP From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 10:52:14 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:52:14 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D2351.4020901@charter.net> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561D2351.4020901@charter.net> Message-ID: <008201d105cf$21debe30$659c3a90$@yahoo.ca> Cool, Jay! Was your keyboard one of the 40 or so that Don re-assembled and offered? Or is it still in stock form? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:29 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/12/2015 5:12 PM, Brad wrote: > > I'm currently working on a replica of Don Lancaster's prototype TV > Typewriter (pic here: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151011_125748_zp > ssu7yy > ujf.jpg.html?o=0 ) and I was wondering - does anyone know where the > unit that appeared on the cover (with the more refined keyboard) ended > up? I've asked around, including Don and nobody seems to know where it got to. > > I'm also wondering if anyone knows a source that might have the > keytops that unit used or something close (I understand they were made > by Mechanical Enterprises). I've enough parts here to build two or > three TVTs and I thought after I get the prototype replica done I > might go for the cover unit, esp. if it no longer exists anymore. But > I understand those keytops were kind of a one off deal for that article. > I actually have one of those funky keyboards shown in the link quoted above on photobucket.com that I acquired around the time of the article for my TVT - but this is not what was shown on the cover page of the magazine, as later posts have pointed out. JRJ ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 10:52:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:52:03 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > The only other terminal I worked > with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 > or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a > scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was > silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I > worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only > capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. The tektronix printer (or 'copier' as they called it) was photographic. The paper was light-sensitive, and went past the screen of a 'flat' CRT (I think it only had deflection plates for one axis, the 'deflection' in the other direction coming from the paper movement). It really was an odd-looking tube. IIRC the image was developed by heating the paper. I don't remember any liquids involved, but it's been a long time since I looked at the manual for one and even longer since I've seen the actual device -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 11:00:04 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:00:04 +0200 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <86F82469-9D22-40A0-A3A7-AB1CA631A238@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <561C91C5.4090906@btinternet.com> <561CBD89.8060605@btinternet.com> <86F82469-9D22-40A0-A3A7-AB1CA631A238@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Nigel Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL > On 13 Oct 2015, at 7:15 PM, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > Its called a Hellschreiber http:// > www.nonstopsystems/radio/pdf-hell/hell-g5xb.pdf Fixed URL: http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-hell/hell-g5xb.pdf ========= I have one VT55-FB which has "the toilet paper dispenser" at the right side. There is some paper in it too. I never tried it though. At the moment (and probably for quite some time to come) I will be busy with repairs and getting the systems running. And I already notice that planned activities take much more time :-/ The VT55-FB will be "checked" when the 11/35 is on the top of the list. The 11/35 has a 20mA current loop console M7800-YA, and connects to the VT55. BTW, Hellschreiber is known in the HAM radio amateur world. AFAIK, invented by the Germans, hence its name. The nice thing about this principle is that text stays readable, even when the receiver is not in sync (within acceptable limits). - Henk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 13 11:00:09 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 logo panel Message-ID: <20151013160009.4D13118C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > I could use the H960 its attached to!!! Cold, dead, hands, etc, etc! :-) But to be serious, those things are in really hot demand - I know Paul A wants some more, I'd like a couple more, etc, etc. They aren't _that_ complicated - it shouldn't be impossible to get more built? Does anyone have any expertise in this area, to let us know how/where to start? Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 10:59:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:59:46 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> References: , <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: > > > I had a little Comprint printer in the 1970s/1980s that used something > sort of like this. The paper was aluminum coated, thus conductive. The > head was a high voltage electrode unit that burned away the aluminum > layer. (I can't imagine any kind of deposition technology in that > era...). The head flew back and forth really fast, doing one pixel-line > at a time. That is how the Sinclair ZX printer works and also things like the Axiom EX820. Spark (about 80-100V IIRC) to aluminium-coated paper. The VT52 printer is not like that. The raw paper looks like paper (slightly yellow, but that might just be age), it is not metal-coated. Another odd one is the Olivetti JP101 Sparkjet which drew a spark (a few hundred volts?) from a carbon electrode to a fixed metal one and in the process got some of the carbon flying across the gap and landing on the paper just above the metal electrode. The result was poor quality output that smudged if you looked at it wrongly... -tony From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 11:04:09 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:04:09 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> <006401d10589$c89bb0c0$59d31240$@yahoo.ca> <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <008301d105d0$cbf48070$63dd8150$@yahoo.ca> Thanks Chuck. I assume being over 40 years it's unlikely we'll ever see these keytops in the wild. Although I said that about TVT boards and then a set showed up on ebay and slipped by me for $40. :) Here's another shot of the keyboard in the original article: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Feb1973/RE_Feb_1973_pg55.jpg Rereading the parts list here: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Feb1973/RE_Feb_1973_pg88.jpg I caught something I didn't before -- Don says 'any reasonable callout'. If I'm understanding what a callout is, that's the actual marking that tells you what that key is. Based on that, maybe Mechanical Enterprises didn't offer a standard set of keys, but rather custom keytops that could have whatever you asked for on them? If that's the case, then as long as I could find someone to produce the correctish dimensions of those keytops, and could figure out from the bad photos what each key had on it, I could potentially replicate that and be able to say that's what the hobbyist did back in the day more or less. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? Brad, I'm going to say that it will be impossible to identify the keyboard used from a photo. The issue is that all sorts of computer equipment used gray key bodies with white letters. For example, here's a Control DD60 console display unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6000_series#/media/File:CDC_6600_console.JPG GRI (George Risk Industries) probably made a jillion gray-keyed keyboards for various manufacturers. IBM used gray keys, Univac used gray keys, CDC used gray keys...it's pretty much impossible to say. --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 11:06:45 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:06:45 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <957B8189-F5A1-4F1E-AFAE-C21995E9F95F@comcast.net> > On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:52 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> The only other terminal I worked >> with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 >> or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a >> scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was >> silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I >> worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only >> capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. > > The tektronix printer (or 'copier' as they called it) was photographic. The > paper was light-sensitive, and went past the screen of a 'flat' CRT (I think > it only had deflection plates for one axis, the 'deflection' in the other > direction coming from the paper movement). It really was an odd-looking > tube. I've never seen that printer. But the tube you describe was common in the 1970s in high end phototypesetting machines, such as the Autologic APS-5 and the Linotron 202. I think the idea was to make high resolution CRT display feasible by having to worry only about accuracy in one coordinate, not two. The film movement (actually paper, essentially a roll of photo-print paper) would provide the other coordinate. Unlike the Tektronix machine you describe, phototypesetter output was developed in essentially the same manner as photographic print, with developer and fixer chemicals, in a machine that would take the paper casette as input and produce the developed/fixed/dried roll of finished material coming out the other end. The roll of paper would then be cut to separate the individual columns and articles, and pasted onto cardboard page size boards to produce the finished layout. At some point, there were machines that could produce page-width paper, but those were rather expensive and useful only once you got software to do the page layout on the computer instead of manually in the composing room. I believe that phototypesetting is obsolete now, though it hung on surprisingly long, certainly into the 1990s -- because laser printout was high enough resolution to read, but not good enough to use as the master for offset printing. I think phototypesetters were good to 1000 dpi or thereabouts, unlike the 300-600 dpi of the first decade or so of laser printers. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 13 11:13:58 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:13:58 -0700 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> > On Oct 12, 2015, at 23:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams > wrote: >> Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and >> burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. > > I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, > as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't > know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick > and having to wait for the paper to dry. I wonder if the wet-paper printer that you remember used a similar process to the one that my folks' liquid toner photocopier did back in the 80s? It used an electrostatic toner adhesion process followed by a fuser. Just like contemporary laser printers and photocopiers, but with the toner particles suspended in a liquid carrier. The volatile carrier smelled awful, and the finished copies had a fingernails-on-chalkboard like gritty feel in the hands. I seem to recall that it needed specially prepared paper. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From simski at dds.nl Tue Oct 13 11:19:03 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:19:03 +0200 Subject: Calcomp 1039 plotter docs? In-Reply-To: References: <55FEC4DF.5050404@dds.nl> <1614635191.8415396.1442817933876.JavaMail.open-xchange@patina.store> <5610D10E.3070008@dds.nl> Message-ID: <561D2EF7.6060805@dds.nl> Hmm, that may com handy... first I need a little time to build a 2114 tester from a sanguino (arduino clone at hand) On 12-10-15 20:30, Erik Baigar wrote: > Hi Simon, > > just came accross, what might be helpful for you: I found > some pages with my spare 906 controller (unfortunatley not > working), listing the functions of the DIP switches. I scanned > them and you find them on my server in the specials section: > > http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/Calcomp_OPC906-907-Switches.pdf > > > Good luck, > > Erik. > > On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: > >> >> Hi Simon, >> >> thanks for your email. I took the pictures on the weekend and loaded >> them onto my server - curious, whether you have got the same setup: >> >> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X/ >> >>> than that pictured in the user guide. I took some more picts of the >>> pcb's in the machine. I will post them on our hack42.nl site later >>> today. >> >> Great, I will check for your pictures and compare... I have got >> engineering drawings (i.e. schematics) only for the power supply, >> the logic board (sequencer) and the pen driver. Unfortunately the >> schematics for the OPC (online plotter controller?) are missing, >> i.e. exactly for the interesting PCB with the CPU there are no >> schematics at the moment :-( >> >>> was loose inside the machine, and it seems ours is wired for current >>> loop, looking at the settings decal on the inside of the backplate. >>> How is yours wired? >> >> That looks very crowded as you can see and I do not know whether >> this is representative. I guess mine was used in some form of >> daisy chain setup but at least the levels are RS232. Yes - I have >> been able to plot data on my plotter, but the PCI/906 language >> the OPC uses is quite strange and the RS232 is not that easy as it >> is using hardware handshake and checks for all signals (RTS/CTS >> and DSR/DTR) I think. >> >>> I had to put away the calcomp for the time being as we had a fair >>> yesterday. >> >> Yes, that is quite a heavy machine. Mine is stored at my parent's >> basement, so I only have access to the plotter and the documentation >> once a month... >> >> Best regards, >> >> Erik. >> >>> On 03-10-15 20:18, Erik Baigar wrote: >>>> Hi Simon, Hello to the group, >>>> >>>> this weekend I went digging for the Calcomp 1038/1039 manual and >>>> if your plotter looks like this... >>>> >>>> http://www.baigar.de/electronics/Calcomp103X.gif >>>> >>>> ...I may have what you need. Drop me a note and I will try to >>>> scan the schematics next week and load them onto my web >>>> page. Did you make any progress with the plotter already? >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Erik. >>>> >>>> P.S. My plotter is a 1038 which has been upgraded with the >>>> PCI/906 interface but it only has got a single pen holder. Does >>>> your plotter have got three colors? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2015, Erik Baigar wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> the 1039 is an interesting plotter I have got a 1038/1039 as well: >>>>> There are two >>>>> big >>>>> PCBs inside - one is for the low level functions (essentally driving >>>>> the servos >>>>> and >>>>> drawing lines using TTL implemented Bresenham) the second one contains >>>>> the >>>>> computer (68xx based) which is handling the communication. >>>>> >>>>> So for simply moving the pens with the arrow buttons, the computer PCB >>>>> may not >>>>> be >>>>> necessary. Have you tried this? >>>>> >>>>> The computer PCB controls the LEDs and blinking may well indicate a >>>>> problem on >>>>> the computer PCB - I thinke I have got a set of documentation. But >>>>> unfortunately >>>>> it is >>>>> stored away, but surely I can do a search within the next four weeks >>>>> if there is >>>>> real interest. I even read out the bipolar PROMs of the processor card >>>>> for >>>>> safety >>>>> some years ago... >>>>> >>>>> Erik, erik at baigar.de >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> tony duell hat am 20. September 2015 um >>>>>> 20:02 >>>>>> geschrieben: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we have a 1039 in our space with the user guide, but without any >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> docs. Our specimen does not react to buttons except the reset and >>>>>>> test >>>>>>> buttons. the four statusleds light up on a reset and after a >>>>>>> second the >>>>>>> center two leds start blinking in sequence. paper and pens are >>>>>>> loaded as >>>>>>> per the user guide. >>>>>> >>>>>> Silly question... It doesn't happen to use 2114 RAMs does it? If so, >>>>>> check >>>>>> and/or >>>>>> replace them. I've foudn such RAM in printers/plotters from many >>>>>> manufacturers >>>>>> and perhaps 90%+ of electronic problems are caused by them. >>>>>> >>>>>> -tony >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Met vriendelijke Groet, >>> >>> Simon Claessen >>> drukknop.nl >>> >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 11:20:33 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:20:33 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> > On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Oct 12, 2015, at 23:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams >> wrote: >>> Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and >>> burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. >> >> I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, >> as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't >> know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick >> and having to wait for the paper to dry. > > I wonder if the wet-paper printer that you remember used a similar process to the one that my folks' liquid toner photocopier did back in the 80s? It used an electrostatic toner adhesion process followed by a fuser. Just like contemporary laser printers and photocopiers, but with the toner particles suspended in a liquid carrier. The volatile carrier smelled awful, and the finished copies had a fingernails-on-chalkboard like gritty feel in the hands. I seem to recall that it needed specially prepared paper. That sounds correct. Versatec made printers that used that process, I used one (attached to the CDC 6500 at U of Illinois PLATO). Very nice for continuous roll full bitmap graphics. paul From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 11:23:33 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:23:33 -0500 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> References: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> Here is a link to my TV Typewriter, you can see the mfg info for the keyboard which was included. I know this isn't the keyboard you are looking for, but is a period correct keyboard: https://picasaweb.google.com/105518971733743859503/TVTypewriter?authkey=Gv1sRgCJnp_Z-jtauDFQ#6205168098809090402 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 13 11:28:28 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:28:28 -0400 Subject: Phototypesetters and imagesetters - Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards In-Reply-To: <957B8189-F5A1-4F1E-AFAE-C21995E9F95F@comcast.net> References: <957B8189-F5A1-4F1E-AFAE-C21995E9F95F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561D312C.9020200@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-13 12:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:52 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >>> The only other terminal I worked >>> with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 >>> or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a >>> scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was >>> silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I >>> worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only >>> capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. >> >> The tektronix printer (or 'copier' as they called it) was photographic. The >> paper was light-sensitive, and went past the screen of a 'flat' CRT (I think >> it only had deflection plates for one axis, the 'deflection' in the other >> direction coming from the paper movement). It really was an odd-looking >> tube. > > I've never seen that printer. But the tube you describe was common > in the 1970s in high end phototypesetting machines, such as the Autologic APS-5 and the Linotron 202. I think the idea was to make high resolution CRT display feasible by having to worry only about accuracy in one coordinate, not two. The film movement (actually paper, essentially a roll of photo-print paper) would provide the other coordinate. Unlike the Tektronix machine you describe, phototypesetter output was developed in essentially the same manner as photographic print, with developer and fixer chemicals, in a machine that would take the paper casette as input and produce the developed/fixed/dried roll of finished material coming out the other end. The roll of paper would then be cut to separate the individual columns and articles, and pasted onto cardboard page size boards to produce the finished layout. Excellent description. I spent a few years running a Linotronic L100, one of the first PostScript imagesetters, capstan feed. It worked on the same principle but instead of a CRT it used a laser and a fast rotating mirror to scan the paper in 1 dimension. It could, at a pinch, expose film directly, but struggled to get proper density. If I recall correctly the bromide paper roll was about 12" wide. A friend in Sydney, Australia, has this hardware now, but if there are serious collectors in that region who really want it, I think he could be persuaded to part with it. > > At some point, there were machines that could produce page-width paper, but those were rather expensive and useful only once you got software to do the page layout on the computer instead of manually in the composing room. > > I believe that phototypesetting is obsolete now, though it hung on surprisingly long, certainly into the 1990s -- because laser printout was high enough resolution to read, but not good enough to use as the master for offset printing. I think phototypesetters were good to 1000 dpi or thereabouts, unlike the 300-600 dpi of the first decade or so of laser printers. The Linotronic series launched with PostScript by 1987 and produced "camera ready artwork" from the Macintosh printing system over AppleTalk (PageMaker, etc, or even MacWrite with its horrendous typography) or anything else over serial (FrameMaker, TeX, what-have-you). I just found an Australian Dollar price list from 1987 - * L100 AUD $69,250 * L300 AUD $96,000 The L100 had switchable resolutions up to 1270dpi and the L300 went up to 2540dpi - more than sufficient for offset. The subsequent generation of imagesetters exposed film (requiring higher exposure and allowing the re-photography step to be eliminated) and secured the film on a spinning drum, allowing industrial standard registration. The capstan feed setters could not offer very high registration accuracy. The first imagesetter I used of this type was the Scangraphic circa 1992 - apparently the first PostScript drum imported to Australia - and it was superb. --Toby > > paul > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 11:58:33 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:58:33 +0100 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <008301d105d0$cbf48070$63dd8150$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561C862E.10908@sydex.com> <005e01d10577$60c14120$2243c360$@yahoo.ca> <561CA03D.4000900@sydex.com> <006301d10588$75e57c40$61b074c0$@yahoo.ca> <006401d10589$c89bb0c0$59d31240$@yahoo.ca> <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> <008301d105d0$cbf48070$63dd8150$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <002b01d105d8$65fcdbc0$31f69340$@gmail.com> Several folks produce custom keytops. I found these:- https://keycapsdirect.worldsecuresystems.com/products/inventory they might want to produce a retro layout for you... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: 13 October 2015 17:04 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? > > Thanks Chuck. I assume being over 40 years it's unlikely we'll ever see these > keytops in the wild. Although I said that about TVT boards and then a set > showed up on ebay and slipped by me for $40. :) > > Here's another shot of the keyboard in the original article: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Feb1973/RE_Feb_1973_p > g55.jpg > > Rereading the parts list here: > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/RadioElectronics/Feb1973/RE_Feb_1973_p > g88.jpg > > I caught something I didn't before -- Don says 'any reasonable callout'. If I'm > understanding what a callout is, that's the actual marking that tells you what > that key is. Based on that, maybe Mechanical Enterprises didn't offer a > standard set of keys, but rather custom keytops that could have whatever > you asked for on them? If that's the case, then as long as I could find > someone to produce the correctish dimensions of those keytops, and could > figure out from the bad photos what each key had on it, I could potentially > replicate that and be able to say that's what the hobbyist did back in the day > more or less. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:23 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? > > Brad, I'm going to say that it will be impossible to identify the keyboard used > from a photo. The issue is that all sorts of computer equipment used gray > key bodies with white letters. > > For example, here's a Control DD60 console display unit: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6000_series#/media/File:CDC_6600_con > sole.JPG > > GRI (George Risk Industries) probably made a jillion gray-keyed keyboards > for various manufacturers. IBM used gray keys, Univac used gray keys, CDC > used gray keys...it's pretty much impossible to say. > > --Chuck > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 12:01:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:01:51 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> References: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561D38FF.1080103@sydex.com> On 10/13/2015 09:23 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is a link to my TV Typewriter, you can see the mfg info for the > keyboard which was included. I know this isn't the keyboard you are > looking for, but is a period correct keyboard: > https://picasaweb.google.com/105518971733743859503/TVTypewriter?authkey=Gv1sRgCJnp_Z-jtauDFQ#6205168098809090402 Yeah, I had one like that as well. The "feel" was terrible. I eventually replaced it with one of those NOS surplus terminal keyboards with the solid molded plastic base--I think LSI used those. I still have a few keytops from it. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Oct 13 12:02:13 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:02:13 +0200 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561D3915.8060308@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-13 16:54, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 12, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> ... >> The M tracks are longitudinally encoded (6-bit values chosen such that they >> read the same as NRZ backwards and forwards for DECtape, 4-bit values for >> LINCtape) to predefine blocks (cf. disk sectors) for data. > > More precisely: it's Manchester encoding, not NRZ. The result is that mark track codes are complemented and reversed end for end if you read them in the opposite order. > > The code choices are such that this process (obverse complement) produces another code word with the right meaning for this spot of the tape in that direction. So "in the data field of the block" reads the same in both directions. But "block start" in one direction reads as "block end" in the other, which is just the result you want. Right. So, start-of-tape read in one direction is end-of-tape read in the other direction. Very clever. And yes, the code telling that it is plain data reads the same in both directions. However, the actual data needs a lot of massaging if you are reading in reverse. Bits are inverted, and in addition, bits in groups of 3 are also in reverse order. It helps if you have hardware that descrambles this for you. Else, you are in for some bit fiddling... (And anyone ever using the TD8E controller will be painfully aware of the low level format of a DECtape...) Johnny From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 12:06:39 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:06:39 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> References: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009401d105d9$8738e530$95aaaf90$@yahoo.ca> Nick thank you so much for that photo. This seems to c onfirm a few things I didn't know about the prototype (not the cover unit we're talking about in this thread) -- that Don's prototype boards must roughly conform to the SWTPC boards you have there (if they are SWTPC, or did you make them from the magazine plans?). I had wondered how one accessed the boards since there appeared to be no access from the top. The museum has the prototype unit screwed down to the display unit it sits on so they cannot flip it over. I have a photo of the backside of it showing what appears to be metal but I can't tell if that's the whole bottom of the case or just the back. http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/IMG_3572_zpsbsahxfq7.jpg.html But based on your photo, the access must be from the bottom. Maybe there isn't a bottom at all (hopefully one day I can get the museum to flip it over and look, or maybe someone has a photo from the days when the prototype went to various vintage computer shows). Brad -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:24 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? Here is a link to my TV Typewriter, you can see the mfg info for the keyboard which was included. I know this isn't the keyboard you are looking for, but is a period correct keyboard: https://picasaweb.google.com/105518971733743859503/TVTypewriter?authkey=Gv1sRgCJnp_Z-jtauDFQ#6205168098809090402 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Oct 13 12:07:35 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:07:35 +0200 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561D3A57.1020605@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-13 18:20, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 12, 2015, at 23:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams >>> wrote: >>>> Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and >>>> burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. >>> >>> I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, >>> as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't >>> know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick >>> and having to wait for the paper to dry. >> >> I wonder if the wet-paper printer that you remember used a similar process to the one that my folks' liquid toner photocopier did back in the 80s? It used an electrostatic toner adhesion process followed by a fuser. Just like contemporary laser printers and photocopiers, but with the toner particles suspended in a liquid carrier. The volatile carrier smelled awful, and the finished copies had a fingernails-on-chalkboard like gritty feel in the hands. I seem to recall that it needed specially prepared paper. > > That sounds correct. Versatec made printers that used that process, I used one (attached to the CDC 6500 at U of Illinois PLATO). Very nice for continuous roll full bitmap graphics. Electrostatic printers... I've dumped a few in my lifetime. Never tried get any of them working, and the last one was like 30 years ago... Smell of the liquids were bad, and you had a couple of bottles inside the printer... Johnny From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 12:09:14 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:52 AM, tony duell wrote: >> The only other terminal I worked >> with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 >> or 4014, IIRC) > IIRC the image was developed by heating the paper. I don't remember any > liquids involved, but it's been a long time since I looked at the manual for one > and even longer since I've seen the actual device Ah... that rings a bell... it wasn't too moist to pick up from the tray, it was still too hot (to be comfortable to grab). Thanks for the reminder. -ethan From go at aerodesic.com Tue Oct 13 12:09:48 2015 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:09:48 -0700 Subject: Punch solenoid coil problem on old Flexowriter Message-ID: <561D3ADC.2060903@aerodesic.com> I'm in the process of refurbishing an old model SPD Flexowriter (from the 1950s.) When I placed it in storage, all worked ok. The storage room was dry (though not heated or cooled) and there were no mice or other vermin involved in it's repose. However, upon starting it back up (and lubing every moving part beforehand) I discovered the punch wasn't firing "on all cylinders." After disassembling the punch solenoid block, I discovered two of the coils were now open (corresponding to the two missing positions) but also, two coils had apparently shorted somewhere and changed value. From a nominal 850 ohms, the two were now about 150 and 500 ohms. I have a lot of old gear with relays (similar to these driver coils) and I've *never* had a problem with an open relay coil (that wasn't caused by obvious damage.) Is this a problem any of you have experienced and if so, have you ever discovered the root cause? I presume it is some corrosion, but the open coils were open near the middle of the winding (#41 AWG wire with about 11000 turns.) The breaks were NOT at the junction of the #41 and the sturdier wire that connects to the terminal block. Also, question 2: the Flexowriter parts list shows two different coils (both 850 ohms) used in this assembly. Four of one and four of another. I'm presuming these are magnetically polarized so that half are North-up and half are North-down in order to not have truly strange things happen all 8 are firing and you get so much magnetism that some armatures are repulsed rather than pulled, but I don't find that mentioned in the manual. I'm planning an experiment with a hall-effect sensor to verify. So far my failures have all been one type so I don't have any to visually examine while I'm unwinding them. The Flexo parts differ only in their part number - no other visible differences are seen. I am rebuilding the coils as I have an ample supply of #41 but I want to know if I need this 'normal/reverse' polarity thing if it exists. So far, I've rewound one coil with a match in wire direction to the one it replaced and it seems to be ok. TIA, Gary From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 12:15:56 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:15:56 -0500 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <008201d105cf$21debe30$659c3a90$@yahoo.ca> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561D2351.4020901@charter.net> <008201d105cf$21debe30$659c3a90$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561D3C4C.2060301@charter.net> On 10/13/2015 10:52 AM, Brad wrote: > Cool, Jay! Was your keyboard one of the 40 or so that Don re-assembled and > offered? Or is it still in stock form? > Mine is "original", as ordered from wherever the article said to get them, back in the 70's. I think one or two of the round pieces got lost - they were just glued onto the square block and tend to fall off. JRJ From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 12:15:27 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:15:27 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D38FF.1080103@sydex.com> References: <561D21C5.3060501@sydex.com> <561D3005.7000102@gmail.com> <561D38FF.1080103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <009701d105da$c1d4e760$457eb620$@yahoo.ca> I think the answer on the keytop thing may have been staring me in the face this whole time. This is a blank key from my CT1024: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151013_092925_zpsigggkcl5.jpg.html?o=0 Although the photo is a bit difficult to make out because the key is black and my camera sucks -- comparing it to the ones on the cover unit, it does appear to be the same physical shape with the smallish legent/callout area and the tall curvy sides. The keys on my CT1024 have the legends/callouts painted on them, not engraved. I could simply make a mold of this key, cast it with my 2 part resin, paint it and then silkscreen the necessary legends/callouts on it. 'Simply'. Heh. But I do think now possibly SWTPC used the same basic keytops here that were offered in that initial 'low cost keyboard' article. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/13/2015 09:23 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is a link to my TV Typewriter, you can see the mfg info for the > keyboard which was included. I know this isn't the keyboard you are > looking for, but is a period correct keyboard: > https://picasaweb.google.com/105518971733743859503/TVTypewriter?authke > y=Gv1sRgCJnp_Z-jtauDFQ#6205168098809090402 Yeah, I had one like that as well. The "feel" was terrible. I eventually replaced it with one of those NOS surplus terminal keyboards with the solid molded plastic base--I think LSI used those. I still have a few keytops from it. --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 13 12:18:23 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:18:23 +0100 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561D3CDF.5080602@btinternet.com> OK here it is The paper is impregnated with potassium ferrocyanide. This gives a yellowish color. The paper is dampend to make it conductive. Passing a current through it turns it blue (at least in the reference I saw) I always thought it printed black. Rod Smallwood On 13/10/2015 17:20, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 12, 2015, at 23:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams >>> wrote: >>>> Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and >>>> burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. >>> I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, >>> as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't >>> know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick >>> and having to wait for the paper to dry. >> I wonder if the wet-paper printer that you remember used a similar process to the one that my folks' liquid toner photocopier did back in the 80s? It used an electrostatic toner adhesion process followed by a fuser. Just like contemporary laser printers and photocopiers, but with the toner particles suspended in a liquid carrier. The volatile carrier smelled awful, and the finished copies had a fingernails-on-chalkboard like gritty feel in the hands. I seem to recall that it needed specially prepared paper. > That sounds correct. Versatec made printers that used that process, I used one (attached to the CDC 6500 at U of Illinois PLATO). Very nice for continuous roll full bitmap graphics. > > paul > > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 12:22:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:22:03 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net>, <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> Message-ID: > That sounds correct. Versatec made printers that used that process, I used one > (attached to the CDC 6500 at U of Illinois PLATO). Very nice for continuous roll > full bitmap graphics. The Versatec electrostatic plotters are not the same as the VT52 printer, they are yet another process. WIth those the paper passes between a set of electrodes that build up a charge image on the paper. I beleive the paper is specially treated to make it more resistive so the charge doesn't leak away too quickly, and there is a clever multiplexing scheme for the electrodes to reduce the number of HV drivers needed (IIRC there is around 600V between the electrodes on the 2 sides of the paper. The paper then passes over a stream of liquid toner, which is attracted to the charge image. The liquid evaporates leaving the toner on the paper. That's it, no further processing. FWIW, apart from the Tektronix photgraphic one, I have examples of all the printers mentioned (aluminium-coated paper, Olivetti Sparkjet, Versatexc, VT52 copier) here. Some need minor repairs, but I will get them all going. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 12:32:46 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:32:46 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> > On Oct 13, 2015, at 1:22 PM, tony duell wrote: > > The Versatec electrostatic plotters are not the same as the VT52 printer, they are > yet another process. WIth those the paper passes between a set of electrodes that > build up a charge image on the paper. I beleive the paper is specially treated to > make it more resistive so the charge doesn't leak away too quickly, and there is > a clever multiplexing scheme for the electrodes to reduce the number of HV drivers > needed (IIRC there is around 600V between the electrodes on the 2 sides of the > paper. > > The paper then passes over a stream of liquid toner, which is attracted to the charge > image. The liquid evaporates leaving the toner on the paper. That's it, no further > processing. Speaking of Versatec: at University of Illinois, there was a PLATO terminal that had a "Versatec screen printer". I never understood how that worked. It smelled like the same electrostatic liquid toner technology. But how the image got from the terminal to the printer is unclear. Remember that these were plasma panel displays, where the graphics state exists only inside the gas pixels in the panel. I wonder if they read out the on/off state of the pixels somehow, but how to do that when there's a 100 volt or so square wave voltage across the panel is not obvious. I have never seen any documentation of this machine. paul From rickb at bensene.com Tue Oct 13 12:38:16 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:38:16 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Hard Copy Unit (Was: Phototypesetters and imagesetters - Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards) Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029C98@mail.bensene.com> > > > >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:52 AM, tony duell > wrote: > >> > >>> The only other terminal I worked > >>> with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 > >>> or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a > >>> scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was > >>> silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I > >>> worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only > >>> capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. > >> AFAIK, the Tektronix external "hard copy units" for their DVST display terminals (4002A, 4010, 4012, 4014, and others that were integrated into various systems (e.g., the 4081 computer system, and 4051/4052/4054 desktop computers)) were dry-process devices. The paper was a dry-silver paper that was photosensitive, but it was developed by heat rather than by chemicals. It is possible, in the very early days of the DVST terminals, that some kind of wet-process hard copy may have been used...or that perhaps a third party developed a wet-process hard copy unit, but my only experience was with the thermal-developing dry-silver paper hard copy units. I used these devices extensively in my time at Tektronix, and became quite expert at troubleshooting/adjustment of the hard copy units. There were no chemicals or toners involved. The paper would come out of the machine quite warm from the developing process. The tube in these hard copy devices was indeed weird...wide, but not very tall. It produced a single scan line that was synchronized with the motion of the paper through the machine. The scan line was driven by the terminal, which used a low-intensity scanning beam to "read" the charge on the storage element of the display screen, and sent the analog signal from the read-out image to the hard copy unit. The DVST technology that Tektronix created for these terminals was very much an example of the extreme levels of CRT technology and knowledge that existed within Tektronix during those days. Just about every tube they used for oscilloscopes, scan converters, and all of the DVST tubes were designed and manufactured in-house at TektroniX HQ in Beaverton, Oregon. The CRT building was one of the earlier buildings on the Tektronix campus there. It was quite a place to visit. Even in the late 1970's, there was amazing CRT development going on there for building things like the tube for the first 1GHz (analog) oscilloscope. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 12:42:20 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:42:20 -0500 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <009401d105d9$8738e530$95aaaf90$@yahoo.ca> References: <009401d105d9$8738e530$95aaaf90$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561D427C.6010708@gmail.com> You are correct Brad, access is from the bottom. The bottom is exposed, not bottom cover. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 13 12:48:44 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 logo panel Message-ID: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > I will probably download everything ... in my experience, websites > with "/~xxxx/" in it seem to disappear after "some" time :-/ True, but pages maintained by institutions are almost equally bad about staying put! Many's the time I've clicked on a link, and the target's gone... I make a real effort to try and not not kill any URL to my Web site that ever worked (via redirects, if needed). I wish institutions were the same, but alas, for most Web-masters, they apparently seem not to give a rodent's posterior. But the downloading is a good idea - the more copies, the better (although in this particular case, it's not like the content is irreplacable). > I have probably all PDP-11 models (except the PDP-11/50) > ... > I am not going to disassemble just for a scan. Well, the /45 front panel is easy: take out the 4 screws holding the bezel on (quite easy - unlike, say, removing an H7420 to clean it - something I am probably going to have to do), and then take out the 3 counter-sunk screws holding the panel on (ditto), remove the two knobs (ditto again) - done! And equally easy to reverse the process. > I could take pictures, but as you say, edges will warp a little. We've already got pretty good pictures of the 11/45 panel, and the RP11-C. There are no RF11 or RK11-C images (that I know of - the RF11 manual only has a drawing, and the RK11-C manual, not even that), so if you have either of those, a picture would be better than nothing. Noel From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 13:13:46 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:13:46 +0200 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 7:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: H960 logo panel > From: Henk Gooijen > I have probably all PDP-11 models (except the PDP-11/50) > ... > I am not going to disassemble just for a scan. Well, the /45 front panel is easy: take out the 4 screws holding the bezel on (quite easy - unlike, say, removing an H7420 to clean it - something I am probably going to have to do), and then take out the 3 counter-sunk screws holding the panel on (ditto), remove the two knobs (ditto again) - done! And equally easy to reverse the process. > I could take pictures, but as you say, edges will warp a little. We've already got pretty good pictures of the 11/45 panel, and the RP11-C. There are no RF11 or RK11-C images (that I know of - the RF11 manual only has a drawing, and the RK11-C manual, not even that), so if you have either of those, a picture would be better than nothing. Noel ========= The /35, /40, /50, /55, and /70 are removed just as the /45. Don't know about the /20. Probably ditto, never checked (yet). But I don't plan on removing those, schlepp them to work just for a scan. Too vulnerable for mishaps ... The other models are not that "fascinating". I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) I have another panel (Edward and Tony has it too) with 144 lamps. It is used on the DX11, a PDP-11 to IBM bus/tag interface. That is a 5.25" high front panel, just like the RK11-C. I cannot remove the yellow frame, but could take it to work and make two scans at 300 dpi. If I still worked for Oc? I could do a lot better, but alas :-/ Two scans at 300 dpi that can be stitched to one complete image is better than no image at all. Don't know whether the frame with cause the panel itself to be out of focus ... - Henk From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Oct 13 13:28:40 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:28:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC05FCD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <058DA819-07F3-47EE-91B5-D02ED26E0D0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC066AD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 7:55 AM >> On Oct 12, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Rich Alderson > >> wrote: >> ... >> The M tracks are longitudinally encoded (6-bit values chosen such that >> they read the same as NRZ backwards and forwards for DECtape, 4-bit >> values for LINCtape) to predefine blocks (cf. disk sectors) for data. > More precisely: it's Manchester encoding, not NRZ. The result is that > mark track codes are complemented and reversed end for end if you read > them in the opposite order. OK, what I had readily to hand was the TC02 DECtape Control maintenance manual (from the PDP-9 series, DEC-09-I3CD-D), where page 2-3 states: Data is recorded by the Manchester method in which a prerecorded timing track synchronizes read/write operations. When writing on the tape, the write amplifiers supply the maximum current in either one direction or the other (non-return to zero, NRZ). So yes, you're correct to observe that NRZ is not as important as Manchester in a description of *reading* the data. Thank you for the correction. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 13:29:11 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:29:11 -0700 Subject: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? In-Reply-To: <561D3C4C.2060301@charter.net> References: <000c01d1053b$08a7f790$19f7e6b0$@yahoo.ca> <561D2351.4020901@charter.net> <008201d105cf$21debe30$659c3a90$@yahoo.ca> <561D3C4C.2060301@charter.net> Message-ID: <00a201d105e5$0e9ec1b0$2bdc4510$@yahoo.ca> Interesting. If you're ever inclined to post a photo I would be most interested. It would confirm a few theories I have about what Don was using at the time. This whole project began in part because I wanted to have one of these and thought I'd never see one come up for sale, given how hard it is to find even a picture of an original one online (I think there's a couple of photos of one built by Mr. Rethemeyer, but that's it). I'm really interested in seeing originals and how people executed the plans, on that or any other of the related Radio Electronics projects. Brad -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:16 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TV Typewriter Cover Unit location? On 10/13/2015 10:52 AM, Brad wrote: > Cool, Jay! Was your keyboard one of the 40 or so that Don > re-assembled and offered? Or is it still in stock form? > Mine is "original", as ordered from wherever the article said to get them, back in the 70's. I think one or two of the round pieces got lost - they were just glued onto the square block and tend to fall off. JRJ ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 13 13:43:58 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:43:58 -0700 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: <165F2CB6-1807-4231-BCE3-7FCAA84E8892@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-13, at 8:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 10/13/2015 12:02 AM, tony duell wrote: >>> ... >>> It appears to be electrolytic. You have to keep the paper damp (there is a wick >>> inside that you put water on. The paper goes between a helical electrode on >>> a spinning drum and a straight strip, the latter being replaced when you fit a new >>> roll of paper. Whether it is some chemical in the paper that changes colour, or metal >>> depositied from the electrode I don't know (the former seems more likely). >>> >>> I have never got it to work. Whether that is due to electronic problems (that I can >>> fix) or chemical problems with the old paper (which I can't) I don't yet know. >>> >>> -tony >>> >> >> I had a little Comprint printer in the 1970s/1980s that used something >> sort of like this. The paper was aluminum coated, thus conductive. The >> head was a high voltage electrode unit that burned away the aluminum >> layer. (I can't imagine any kind of deposition technology in that >> era...). The head flew back and forth really fast, doing one pixel-line >> at a time. > > There are all sorts of oddball printing technologies from back then. I remember one (from a lab instrument, not a printer or terminal) that used aluminum-coated paper, but the coating was on the back of the paper. The writing was done with a high voltage electrode just as you describe, but the result was that the sparks would scorch the paper and leave a thin black mark. TMK these were generally referred to as electrographic printing. This sort of scheme goes back to at least the 40/50s for fax machines: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html There the metalisation is on the back of the paper. Similar technique used in an early 70s calculator, but the metalisation is on the front: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CanonEP151.html John Wolff describes the mechanism in more detail: http://www.johnwolff.id.au/calculators/Canon/SE600/SE600.htm ( In these designs there's no wetting involved.) > I don't remember what the VT55 used. Tony's comment does sound plausible; I distinctly remember "electrolytic" printing technology though no details. I wonder if it might help to take a bit of the paper to a competent chemist for analysis, to find out what the active ingredient is. That might help give a clue what is needed to make it work. > > paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 14:04:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:04:08 -0700 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <165F2CB6-1807-4231-BCE3-7FCAA84E8892@cs.ubc.ca> References: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> <165F2CB6-1807-4231-BCE3-7FCAA84E8892@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <561D55A8.1020905@sydex.com> On 10/13/2015 11:43 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > TMK these were generally referred to as electrographic printing. > > This sort of scheme goes back to at least the 40/50s for fax > machines: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html There > the metalisation is on the back of the paper. > > Similar technique used in an early 70s calculator, but the > metalisation is on the front: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/CanonEP151.html John Wolff > describes the mechanism in more detail: > http://www.johnwolff.id.au/calculators/Canon/SE600/SE600.htm My first contact with this paper wasn't printing, but rather in biology. You'd wrap the stuff around the drum of a kymograph, connect the (insulated) stylus to a HV (battery-powered induction coil setup) power source, and grounding the drum. Turn the power on and let 'er rip. I suspect that this technology probably goes back to the 20's at least. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 13 14:34:43 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: , <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: >>>> I had a little Comprint printer in the 1970s/1980s that used something > sort of like this. The paper was aluminum coated, thus conductive. The On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, tony duell wrote: That is how the Sinclair ZX printer works and also things like the Axiom EX820. Spark (about 80-100V IIRC) to aluminium-coated paper. Even Radio Shack had one of those! But not for long. Crumpling the paper could lose the image. ANd THERMAL printers couldn't handle leaving a printout in the sun. > The VT52 printer is not like that. The raw paper looks like paper > (slightly yellow, but that might just be age), it is not metal-coated. So, NOT the same. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 13 14:39:59 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:39:59 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: , <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> , Message-ID: [Aluminium coated paper printers] > Even Radio Shack had one of those! But not for long. Crumpling the paper How did the original TRS-80 screen printer work -- the one that plugged into the expanison bus and read out video RAM? The 'Quick Print II' (or some very similar name) was a Radio Shack aluminium-paper printer certainly. IIRC it could be linked to an RS232 interface, Centronics interface or the M1 expanson bus where it responded to the same addresses as the normal Centronics port in the Expansion Interface. > > could lose the image. ANd THERMAL printers couldn't handle leaving a > > printout in the sun. The thermal printers, like the ones in HP calculators from the HP9810 onwards become unreadable from age (fades out), heat (obviously darkens the paper, and it doesn't take much to do it, a soldering iron an inch or so away has a noticeable effect), propan-2-ol (causes a chemical reaction that darkens the paper, don't ask how I found that out), etc. If you want to preserve the output, scan or photocopy it -- any other process has a longer life!. Worryingly I had to tell this to a member of staff at the British Library who was archiving HP calculator printouts... > > The VT52 printer is not like that. The raw paper looks like paper > > (slightly yellow, but that might just be age), it is not metal-coated. > > So, NOT the same. Certainly not an aluminium-coated paper. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 14:47:11 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:47:11 -0400 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: References: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. Also, I've never attempted to fire it up, so I'm sure it needs a round of cleaning/deoxit and to be sleuthed for defective ICs. -ethan From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Tue Oct 13 14:59:34 2015 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:59:34 -0400 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <20151013132934.9DC4B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151013132934.9DC4B18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <561D62A6.4030600@yahoo.com> On 10/13/2015 9:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > yes, please take a nice picture of it! ... The higher the resolution > > the better! > > OK, I scanned it (I prefer scanning to pictures, as there is almost > inevitably distortion when using a lens), at 300 dpi. The whole thing > wouldn't fit in my A3 scanner, but I got the majority of it, and the part > that's not shown is just the plain two-colour band. > > Available here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/CanadaPanel.jpg > > and I've also added it to my 'PDP-11 resources page', here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html > > Also, I have recently scanned in the front indictor panel for the 11/55 and > 11/70 (the later one, with the blue/blue colour scheme), and those can be > found on that page too, along with drawings of the basic 40-45-70 panel (only > the on/off switch, etc, locations differ) and the basic 45-50-55 panel (with > on/off switch and selector switch holes added); those have also been added to > that page. > > I'd like to encourage people with other front panels (I myself am > particularly interested in those for the 11/45, RF11, RK11-C and RP11-C) to > scan them too, for people who are interested in doing reproductions. I can > host the images, for people who don't have that capability. > > Noel > A DEC DataSystem front panel just sold on Ebay for just under $1300. It started at $799 and although I would love to have the regular PDP-11/70 panel, I almost went for it. But I knew it would go much higher than I could afford. Since I doubt I'll ever be able to get a real one, making a modern replacement such as Rob Smallwood is doing for the PDP8's is on my to-do list. Hopefully I'll get there. :) John H. Reinhardt From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 15:07:30 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:07:30 +0200 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: References: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: H960 logo panel On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. Also, I've never attempted to fire it up, so I'm sure it needs a round of cleaning/deoxit and to be sleuthed for defective ICs. -ethan ========= Now you know where you can leave it behind for a good old retirement :-) You don't happen to get that RK11-C from an eBay auction some 8 - 9, maybe 10 years ago? I remember (just) one RK11-C passing by on eBay, and that was when I still worked at Oc? training centre, so at least 8 years ago. It sold for ~ $50 (IIRC). Will never forget that I let that one go! :-( - Henk From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Oct 13 15:17:57 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:17:57 -0700 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <561D2117.6050608@charter.net> Message-ID: <3924309C-AD37-4490-A02C-6846F69963B9@nf6x.net> > On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:39 , tony duell wrote: > > [Aluminium coated paper printers] > >> Even Radio Shack had one of those! But not for long. Crumpling the paper > > How did the original TRS-80 screen printer work -- the one that plugged into the > expanison bus and read out video RAM? I think it was electrostatic, using the aluminized paper. I don't imagine that electrostatic paper is still manufactured, is it? Even in different roll widths that might be cut down to support some old-timey computer printer? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 15:46:31 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:46:31 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel) Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) > > I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. > > Now you know where you can leave it behind for a good old retirement :-) > You don't happen to get that RK11-C from an eBay auction some 8 - 9, > maybe 10 years ago? I did not. I've had it since August, 1984, and I got it from Software Results shortly before starting to work there. It (along with a stripped PDP-8/a and a DataSystems 310 desk) came with a pair of RK05 drives: one RK05J and one RK05F (but no power supply) that I wanted to use with the PDP-8. I'm told the whole pile came from Ohio State Surplus sometime in 1983 or so. Sadly, I mangled the RK05F due to youth and inexperience. I might still have the front cover for that RK05F in a box of parts, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the drive got stripped for parts 30 years ago to repair RK05J drives (if I knew then what I know now, I assure you that events would have unfolded differently, but I had no docs and no experience... then I had a series of "educational experiences" with this hardware and am wiser now). I only ever saw one other RK05F in the wild, FWIW. > I remember (just) one RK11-C passing by on eBay, and that was when I > still worked at Oc? training centre, so at least 8 years ago. It sold for > ~ $50 (IIRC). Will never forget that I let that one go! :-( That's an amazing price just for the pile of FLIPCHIPs. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 13 16:41:51 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:41:51 -0500 Subject: new acquisition Message-ID: <000401d105ff$f918da90$eb4a8fb0$@classiccmp.org> Yep, I was the one that scored that SYM-1 and accessories for $40 :) Pictures at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 Just arrived, have yet to power it up as I'm busy with DG projects (next email!) :) J From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Tue Oct 13 14:21:13 2015 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:21:13 +0000 Subject: Anyone have manuals for these peripherals? Message-ID: I have a Perkin Elmer VT2222 disk drive (Vanguard I) which due to the acquisitions of the time, was Interdata and became Wangco and Cipher. Looking for a manual especially schematics. I have an IBM 9347 (9 track tape drive) which uses IPI-3 for its interface. If I can get schematics for the drive (or for the controller board that goes in a 9370 system, I can get work up a replacement interface. Looking for the manuals for drive or controller. Thanks, Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 13 17:08:26 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:08:26 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress Message-ID: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Pictures of the S/130 system I'm building up are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 I think the last I posted here... the cpu was up and running, that was the first piece I refurbished. I took everything out of the rack and cleaned that up well, and the cpu has been remounted there. Yesterday I mounted the 6030 dual 8" floppy drive. It was squeaky clean inside and at power up everything does what it should. However, I can't proceed further with it as I have no media. The docs say it uses hard sector 8" floppies, which I believe I can find. However, it specifies 8 sectors/track hard sector floppies - and those I've never heard of. Maybe DG made them special just for their gear, or, maybe the drive or controller or software was smart enough to expect the more common 32 hard sector floppies and knew to only pay attention to every 4th sector hole ;) In any case, before I spend "real dollar$" on media, if anyone has a single piece of 8 sector hard sectored 8" media I'd love to get one for testing :) Getting the 6030 connected to the cpu took a lot of documentation reading. It would seem that DG didn't believe in anything plugging in to interface boards. Instead, interface boards went in the cpu with no external connectors. Then you wirewrap from the backplane from a given slot to one (of a stack) of paddle boards bolted to the rear of the cpu chassis. Those paddleboards have edge connectors, and that's where you connect the device cable. Fun stuff. I started digging in to refurbishing a 6125 mag tape unit to go with the above system. It has power supply issues. The schematics I have are similar but not 100% correct so some guessing was involved. Whenever I turned on the tape unit, any other things (shop light, oscilloscope, etc.) plugged in to the same circuit would start randomly turning off and on. That is not a good sign ;) Earth leakage... Checking the snubber circuit on the mains side of the transformer led me to suspect a mylar that sat between hot and neutral. I lifted one leg of it (just for testing) and that problem is definitely gone. Next problem is the power supply makes a loud ringing noise. I believe that's usually either ceramic disc capacitors or transformers, but I'm having a really hard time locating the exact source of the sound. I'm going to remove the power supply from the metal chassis and hook it up externally (that's how it goes in the rack anyways) and see if I can tell for sure that is the issue. Other than that, offline tests all work, so that will be racked up shortly and cabled to the S/130 cpu. Next on the list is refurbishing the DG 4084 dual cassette tape unit and racking that. Something tells me media will be unobtainium for that. Last step will be to refurbish and install a hard drive, most likely I'll use a 6050. So... some progress at least :) J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 18:03:21 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:03:21 -0500 Subject: Xebec 1410A (WAS Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561D8DB9.1010702@gmail.com> On 10/12/2015 07:09 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Devin Monnens wrote: > >> Ok, correction to previous message. It's a Xebec 1410A with 1.0 Firmware. >> Should be MUCH easier to find now that we have the correct model number! > > This was in an IBM 5150 (original PC)? I'm still confused. The 1410A is a > bridge board that presents an MFM drive as a SASI (pre-SCSI) device. What > SCSI bus adapter is that machine fitted with? Indeed, that and the 5150's PSU wasn't capable of running a hard drive. Could have been upgraded, of course, but it just made me wonder if this isn't some other IBM product with a similar model number, and not a 5150 at all. Unfortunately while I'm 99% sure that I have at least one of the boards, they're over in England with no possibility of shipping them over to me in the US in the near future :/ cheers Jules From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 18:02:11 2015 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:02:11 +1300 Subject: Visual 100 Terminal - Circuit Diagram Wanted Message-ID: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> Hey everyone, I know it exists out in the wild somewhere, but I can't find a copy myself. It's for a VT100 clone terminal called the Visual 100 - from around 1982. If anyone can help me track the circuit diagram down, and/or any other information too, I'd be very greatful. If payment is required I have the usual PayPal etc. Thanks! Jono From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 13 18:30:57 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:30:57 -0400 Subject: Anyone have manuals for these peripherals? Message-ID: <26cbf.7c07e3f1.434eee31@aol.com> will add it to my list as I go though arrivals here Carl. thx--- Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2015 2:42:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, Carl.Claunch at gartner.com writes: I have a Perkin Elmer VT2222 disk drive (Vanguard I) which due to the acquisitions of the time, was Interdata and became Wangco and Cipher. Looking for a manual especially schematics. I have an IBM 9347 (9 track tape drive) which uses IPI-3 for its interface. If I can get schematics for the drive (or for the controller board that goes in a 9370 system, I can get work up a replacement interface. Looking for the manuals for drive or controller. Thanks, Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 13 18:30:57 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:30:57 -0400 Subject: Anyone have manuals for these peripherals? Message-ID: <26cbf.7c07e3f1.434eee31@aol.com> will add it to my list as I go though arrivals here Carl. thx--- Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2015 2:42:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, Carl.Claunch at gartner.com writes: I have a Perkin Elmer VT2222 disk drive (Vanguard I) which due to the acquisitions of the time, was Interdata and became Wangco and Cipher. Looking for a manual especially schematics. I have an IBM 9347 (9 track tape drive) which uses IPI-3 for its interface. If I can get schematics for the drive (or for the controller board that goes in a 9370 system, I can get work up a replacement interface. Looking for the manuals for drive or controller. Thanks, Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 13 18:38:54 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel) Message-ID: <20151013233854.1F45C18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > I only ever saw one other RK05F in the wild, FWIW. I only ever saw one, also. > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> I remember (just) one RK11-C passing by on eBay .. at least 8 years >> ago. It sold for ~ $50 (IIRC). > That's an amazing price just for the pile of FLIPCHIPs. Hey, back in the late 60's, you could buy an outdated Ferrari racing car, or a retired Cobra Daytona, for a couple of thousand, US$. Those cars now sell for tens of millions... >> Will never forget that I let that one go! :-( The people who passed on those Ferraris, Daytonas, etc now have the same reaction! I wonder if PDP-11's will ever get anything like that stupid? Probably not (although one never knows, q.v. the Ferraris and Daytonas); although I reckon they will be more noteworthy to later collectors (i.e. who didn't use them themselves) than most other old machines, because the PDP-11 was the machine that really set Unix on the road. (Which is not why _I'm_ big on them, mind...) Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 13 18:57:39 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xebec 1410A (WAS Xebec 1402A Seagate HDD controller) In-Reply-To: <561D8DB9.1010702@gmail.com> References: <561D8DB9.1010702@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> This was in an IBM 5150 (original PC)? I'm still confused. The 1410A is a >> bridge board that presents an MFM drive as a SASI (pre-SCSI) device. What >> SCSI bus adapter is that machine fitted with? On Tue, 13 Oct 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > Indeed, that and the 5150's PSU wasn't capable of running a hard drive. Could > have been upgraded, of course, but it just made me wonder if this isn't some > other IBM product with a similar model number, and not a 5150 at all. The XT (5160), NOT THE PC (5150) had a hard drive. It also had a larger power supply than the PC. The XT hard disk was controlled by a board made by Xebec, and rebranded as IBM. I don't remember the board model number. As part of the rebranding, they removed the configuration switches, so that it was "hard-wired" for 10M drive. It supported two drives. By soldering in jumpers (a 4 pole DIP switch fit just fine), you could set either of the two drives for 5M?, 10M (default NC), 16M? or 26M?. Other sizes or geometries could, of course be set by software after booting. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 19:04:22 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:04:22 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <561D9C06.5060508@charter.net> On 10/13/2015 5:08 PM, Jay West wrote: > Pictures of the S/130 system I'm building up are at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 > > I think the last I posted here... the cpu was up and running, that was the > first piece I refurbished. I took everything out of the rack and cleaned > that up well, and the cpu has been remounted there. > > Yesterday I mounted the 6030 dual 8" floppy drive. It was squeaky clean > inside and at power up everything does what it should. However, I can't > proceed further with it as I have no media. The docs say it uses hard sector > 8" floppies, which I believe I can find. However, it specifies 8 > sectors/track hard sector floppies - and those I've never heard of. Maybe DG > made them special just for their gear, or, maybe the drive or controller or > software was smart enough to expect the more common 32 hard sector floppies > and knew to only pay attention to every 4th sector hole ;) I see that sector count (0-7) in the 6030 technical reference. But all of the HS floppies I have for DG are 32 sectors - and many of those are software distribution floppies for Novas, appropriate to the 6030. They are all labelled DG Diskette (as opposed to /2, /3 or /4), as per the illustration in the 6030 manual. SO: The manual specifies a max sector access time of 166ms, and a min of 1.2ms. 166ms implies a rotational speed of 360 rpm (6 revolutions per second, or 166ms). Divide that by 8, and we get sectors about 20ms apart (8 sectors), with an extra index pulse 1/2 of that, or 10ms. For 32 sectors they would be at 5.1ms and the extra index pulse would be 1/2 of the 32 sector pulse, or 2.6ms. Looking at the schematic I have, 001-000797-10 (rev 10), sheet 2, bottom left quadrant, the index pulse is fed into a one-shot with a time constant noted of 3.9ms to generate the index pulse - which would be pretty darn close to 1/2 of the way in between 2.6ms and 5.1ms. The sector pulse is derived from a counter, U63. The counter has an input signal labelled "DIV 4" to pins 5 and 6. Also (this would have saved time had I seen it right away) there is a timing diagram, 001-000893-00 that shows 5.2ms between sector pulses, and 2.6ms for the extra index pulse, with pulses being 1.1ms in length and also shows the 3.9ms one-shot timing. That cinches it: the design is for 32 sector floppies. More to follow related to my hardware and software inventory, but I just got called to dinner. JRJ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 19:05:58 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:05:58 -0500 Subject: ST506/412 failure modes? (in this case, an IBM 0665) In-Reply-To: References: <561C01C4.3060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561D9C66.6040807@gmail.com> On 10/12/2015 01:58 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> This may be forgotten knowledge - or perhaps more likely, something that >> was never known in the first place - but are there any typical failure >> modes of ST506/412-type drives (beyond the obvious mechanical damage >> between heads and platters)? > > For the genuine original ST506 ST412, etc there is a very annoying failure of the > hall effect device in the spindle motor. Annoying becuase the motor is on the > outside of the HDA, but it is impossible to get to the hall device to replace it. > >> In this particular instance, I've got an IBM 0665 30MB drive in a Compaq >> which spins up, bounces the heads around a little, then causes the machine >> to issue a fixed disk failure at boot time. This is an embedded servo drive >> with a voice coil, not a stepper type. Oddly enough, it passes Compaq > > I am sure you know this, but there were ST412-interfaced drives with a > separate servo surface. I knew that once... it had decided to leave my brain, however :-) I suppose this drive is probably old enough that it does indeed have a separate servo surface; the embedded kind doubtless came a little later. >> diag's spare cylinder read/write tests, but fails the seek test. I've not >> tried a LLF yet because I was interested in trying to salvage whatever data > > My first guess is that it is losing the servo signal at some point. Possibly > due to platter damage. Do you get any nasty noises as the heads fly to one > side or the other and then re-seek to the right track? No, it sounds reasonably happy - no nasty grinding or screeching noises that often go with head damage. Do these kinds of drives suffer from information disappearing over time? Not corruption as such, but the stored signal simply weakening? cheers Jules From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 19:32:49 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:32:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell) Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:29:11 +0000 > From: tony duell > Subject: RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM > > > We swapped the TU56 and TU55 drives between the PDP-12 and the PDP-8/I. > We > > Does the TU55 work correctly on the 8/I ? > Yes, it works perfectly. It even worked OK after we put it back in the 8/I. > > The TU55 behaved a little better than the TU56, and sometimes would > > actually boot OS/8. We continued chasing the issue and found glitches on > > data channel 3. We have swapped every module and cable that relates to > data > > What exactly do you mean by 'glitches'? Are these on a TTL level signal, > an analogue > output of the read amplifer, or what? > You can see the logic analyzer trace of many of the TC12 signals here. The labels at the far left of the image include the backplane slot and pin number for the probe location. The signals were TTL level by the time the logic analyzer saw them. Have you looked for glitches on the other data channels? > Tracks 1 & 2 look fine. We swapped the probes for track 2 & 3 just to make sure that it wasn't a logic analyzer problem. A 'scope connected to the differential signals shows the same track 3 glitches. The glitches were present with the TU55 and the TU56 tape drives. We used different control and data cables for the TU55 and TU56. We swapped the G882 modules between tracks, and from the TC01 in the PDP-8/I and did not see a change. We swapped the W603 module in slot F16, the R107 in F12, and the W512 in F13. The LTR WRITE ON L signal is inactive and stable. We tried several tapes, including ones formatted and written by DEC and the glitches are present on track 3. -tony > -- Michael Thompson From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 13 20:24:09 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:24:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561DAEB9.5090009@pico-systems.com> On 10/13/2015 07:32 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > Tracks 1 & 2 look fine. We swapped the probes for track 2 & 3 just to make > sure that it wasn't a logic analyzer problem. A 'scope connected to the > differential signals shows the same track 3 glitches. The glitches were > present with the TU55 and the TU56 tape drives. We used different control > and data cables for the TU55 and TU56. We swapped the G882 modules between > tracks, and from the TC01 in the PDP-8/I and did not see a change. We > swapped the W603 module in slot F16, the R107 in F12, and the W512 in F13. > The LTR WRITE ON L signal is inactive and stable. We tried several tapes, > including ones formatted and written by DEC and the glitches are present on > track 3. > > OK, so the drive must have a head amplifier and a comparator (sometimes called a slicer in tape technology) to convert the amplified analog signal to a digital one. Have you swapped the read amps and comparator cards? (Sounds like yes, above.) Have you looked at the analog signals? it is possible a defect in the tape head is causing the read signal to be different than what should be seen. Looking at the amplified analog signal might give some hint at the behavior. (Don't bother trying to look at the raw tape head signal, it will be really tiny.) I'm not sure where the read amps and slicer are, whether they are in the control or the drive. (Seems like the read amp HAS to be in the drive, though, for noise immunity reasons.) Jon From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 20:36:32 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:36:32 -0500 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: References: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <561DB1A0.6050908@charter.net> On 10/13/2015 2:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) > > I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. Also, I've never > attempted to fire it up, so I'm sure it needs a round of > cleaning/deoxit and to be sleuthed for defective ICs. > > -ethan > I have an RK11-C as well. Also no light panel. ;( Not sure of its status - it was working at one point. Connected to a couple of Diablo disk drives. JRJ From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Oct 13 20:46:43 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:46:43 +1100 Subject: Visual 100 Terminal - Circuit Diagram Wanted In-Reply-To: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> References: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Chote wrote: > I know it exists out in the wild somewhere, but I can't find a copy > myself. It's for a VT100 clone terminal called the Visual 100 - from around > 1982. > I scanned the reference manual if you haven't found it elsewhere, has a small amount of detail about the hardware, don't think it had a circuit diagram though. I only have the manual, I haven't seen one for decades. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B56jJyqriCmvZlpISXZaUkZRN28&usp=sharing From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 13 21:00:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:00:26 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <561D9C06.5060508@charter.net> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <561D9C06.5060508@charter.net> Message-ID: <561DB73A.9020302@charter.net> On 10/13/2015 7:04 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/13/2015 5:08 PM, Jay West wrote: > > More to follow related to my hardware and software inventory, but I just > got called to dinner. > > JRJ > Jay (West): FYI, my Nova 4 has the later "Eclipse" series hard drive and the DSDD soft sectored floppy. I'm a little surprised about the S/130 4234/6030 hard sector floppy combination. You If anyone needs the below, let me know. Al (Kossow): let me know if you would like me to send you the images, and how. The 6030 technical manual identifies these prints: 001-000258 (9 sheets) Disc Cartridge Control [have - not shown because it didn't have "Diskette" in its name] 001-000797 (2 sheets) Diskette Interface (A) [have - see below] 001-000812 (1 sheet) Diskette Interface (B) [have - see below] 001-000846 (8 sheets) Flow & Timing [have - see below] 001-000893 (2 sheets) Diskette Timing [have - see below] It looks like the 4234 is dual-purpose: diskette and cartridge drive control. I have not scanned any of this stuff in, but have the means to do so, and would expect to get around to it - but later rather than sooner unless there is a need now. Manuals / drawings: 6030: Manual-759 DG 010-000064-02 MANUAL Diskette Drive Series 6030, 6031 Manual-760 DG 010-000064-05 MANUAL Diskette Drive Series 6030, 6031 Manual-812 DG 014-000065-01 MANUAL Technical Reference Model 6030 Diskette Subsystem Manual-813 DG 014-000065-01 MANUAL Technical Reference Model 6030 Diskette Subsystem Manual-959 DG 016-000271-02 MANUAL Mech. IPL Flexible Disc Model 6030/6031 Manual-960 DG 016-000271-11 MANUAL Mech. IPL Flexible Disc Model 6030/6031 4234 controller: Manual-549 DG 001-000846-01 MANUAL Flow Charts (4234) Manual-550 DG 001-000846-01 MANUAL Flow Charts (4234) DG Diskette search (not listed already, with one later reference removed) Manual-540 DG 001-000796-07 SCHEMATIC Diskette Power Supply (Schematic) Manual-541 DG 001-000796-12 SCHEMATIC Diskette Power Supply (Schematic) Manual-542 DG 001-000797-08 MANUAL Diskette Interface (Logic Diagram) Manual-543 DG 001-000797-10 MANUAL Diskette Interface (Logic Diagram) Manual-544 DG 001-000797-13 MANUAL Diskette Interface (Logic Diagram) Manual-547 DG 001-000812-06 MANUAL Diskette Control Track Addressing Section B (Logic Diagram) Manual-578 DG 001-000893-00 MANUAL Diskette Adapter Timing S BASEMENT 1975 Manual-579 DG 001-000893-13 MANUAL Diskette Adaptor Timing Manual-1236 DG 096-000298-04 LISTING Cartridge/Diskette Diagnostic Manual-1237 DG 096-000299-05 LISTING Cartridge/Diskette Reliability (Listing) Manual-1238 DG 096-000300-04 LISTING Cartridge/Diskette Formatter (Listing) Software on floppy (Hard sector) (most of which I have imaged as byte streams in logical sector order) KIND ID MACHINE CONTENTS COMMENT DGFHS 1001 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK W/O Mag Tape 072-000002-02 (Copy) DGFHS 1002 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000002-04 DGFHS 1003 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000002-04 (Copy) DGFHS 1004 NOVA NOVA DOS SYSGEN Diskette: W/O Mag Tape 072-000003-01 DGFHS 1005 NOVA NOVA DOS SYSGEN Diskette: W/O Mag Tape 072-000003-02 (Copy) DGFHS 1006 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITY Diskette W/O Mag Tape 072-000004-01 DGFHS 1007 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITY Diskette W/O Mag Tape 072-000004-02 (Copy) DGFHS 1008 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITIES DK Rev. 3.00 072-000004-04 DGFHS 1009 NOVA NOVA DOS UTILITIES DK 072-000004-?? (Copy, Revision not shown) DGFHS 1010 NOVA RTOS Mag Tape Support 072-000006-01 (RTOS DOS Support not Mag? DGFHS 1011 NOVA NOVA DOS Starter Diskette With Mag Tape 072-000009-00 DGFHS 1012 NOVA CMSP (Communications Mux Software Pkg?) 072-000018-00 DGFHS 1013 NOVA MicroNOVA Starter DK Rev. 3.00 072-000035-03 DGFHS 1014 NOVA DOS Update 2 for Rev 3.00 072-000241-01 DGFHS 1015 NOVA NOVA RTOS 072-000040-00 DGFHS 1016 NOVA NOVA RTOS on Diskette "072-000040-02 (Rev 6) ""3100""" DGFHS 1017 NOVA RTOS Rev. 6.20 072-000040-03 DGFHS 1018 NOVA RTOS Update 1 ON Diskette 072-000322-00 (Rev 6) DGFHS 1019 NOVA Real Time Input/Output System (RTIOS) 072-000048-00 DGFHS 1020 NOVA RDOS Patch on Diskette "072-000091-01A ""3181F""" DGFHS 1021 NOVA RDOS Patch on Diskette "072-000091-01A (Copy) ""3181F""" DGFHS 1022 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 1 of 3 "072-000098-02 ""OLD REV WIPED""" DGFHS 1023 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 2 of 3 "072-000099-02 ""OLD REV""" DGFHS 1024 NOVA NRDOS on Diskette 3 of 3 "072-000100-02 ""OLD REV""" DGFHS 1025 NOVA RDOS Update 1 on Diskette "072-000091-02 ""OLD REV""" DGFHS 1026 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 1 of 3 072-000098-03 DGFHS 1027 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 2 of 3 072-000099-03 DGFHS 1028 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.40 on Diskette 3 of 3 072-000100-03 DGFHS 1029 NOVA Update 2 for Rev 6.40 RDOS on Diskette 072-000091-03 DGFHS 1030 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 1 072-000098-04 DGFHS 1031 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 2 072-000099-04 DGFHS 1032 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 3 072-000100-04 DGFHS 1033 NOVA NRDOS Rev 6.50 DK 4 072-000543-00 DGFHS 1034 NOVA Update 2 for RDOS Rev 6.50 on DK 072-000091-04 DGFHS 1035 NOVA Update 3 for RDOS on DK Rev. 6.50 DK 1 072-000091-04 DGFHS 1036 NOVA Update 3 for RDOS on DK Rev. 6.50 DK 2 072-000589-00 DGFHS 1037 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 1 072-000098-05 DGFHS 1038 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 2 072-000099-05 DGFHS 1039 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 3 072-000100-05 DGFHS 1040 NOVA NOVA 3 Mapped RDOS Rev 6.60 DK 4 072-000543-01 DGFHS 1041 NOVA Update 1 for RDOS on DK Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 DGFHS 1042 NOVA Update 2 - Nova/Eclipse RDOS Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 DGFHS 1043 NOVA Update 2 - Nova/Eclipse RDOS Rev 6.60 072-000091-05 DGFHS 1044 NOVA RDOS BATCH Processor on Diskette R. 6.20 072-000061 DGFHS 1045 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 1 072-000098-06 DGFHS 1046 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 2 072-000099-06 DGFHS 1047 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 3 072-000100-06 DGFHS 1048 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 4 072-000543-02 DGFHS 1049 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 5 072-000669-00 DGFHS 1050 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 1 072-000098-06 DGFHS 1051 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 2 072-000099-06 DGFHS 1052 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 3 072-000100-06 DGFHS 1053 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 4 072-000543-02 DGFHS 1054 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 6.70 DK 5 072-000669-00 DGFHS 1055 NOVA Update 1 NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev. 6.70 072-000091-06 DGFHS 1056 NOVA Update 1 NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev. 6.70 072-000091-06 DGFHS 1057 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 1 072-000098-07 DGFHS 1058 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 2 072-000099-07 DGFHS 1059 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 3 072-000100-07 DGFHS 1060 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 4 072-000543-03 DGFHS 1061 NOVA N Mapped NOVA 3,4 RDOS Rev 7.00 DK 5 072-000669-01 DGFHS 1062 NOVA Update 1, NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev 7.00 DK1 072-000091-07 DGFHS 1063 NOVA Update 1, NOVA/Eclipse RDOS Rev 7.00 DK2 072-000589-01 DGFHS 1064 NOVA URDOS Diskette 1 of 3 072-000101-01 DGFHS 1065 NOVA URDOS Diskette 2 of 3 072-000102-01 DGFHS 1066 NOVA URDOS Diskette 3 of 3 072-000103-01 DGFHS 1067 NOVA URDOS Diskette 1 of 3 072-000101-01 (Copy) DGFHS 1068 NOVA URDOS Diskette 3 of 3 072-000103-01 (Copy) DGFHS 1069 NOVA SOS FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000069-00 (Yes, SOS, not DOS) DGFHS 1070 NOVA DOS FORTRAN IV Runtime & Compiler 072-000005-00 (Checksum Error FORT1.LB) DGFHS 1071 NOVA DOS FORTRAN IV Runtime & Compiler 072-000005-00 (Copy) DGFHS 1072 NOVA FORTRAN 4 DOS Compiler Rev 5.30 072-000005-03 DGFHS 1073 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN CSP 072-000044-00 (Commercial Subroutine Pkg DGFHS 1074 NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime Library 072-000025-00 DGFHS 1075 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime 072-000025-02 DGFHS 1076 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Runtime 072-000025-02 DGFHS 1077 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000027-02 DGFHS 1078 NOVA NOVA FORTRAN IV Compiler 072-000027-02 DGFHS 1079 NOVA Update 2 NOVA FORTRAN IV 072-000348-00A DGFHS 1079A NOVA Update 2 NOVA FORTRAN IV 072-000348-00A DGFHS 1080 NOVA FORTRAN 4 Runtime Rev. 5.30 072-000025-03 DGFHS 1081 NOVA Update 1 for DOS FORTRAN 4 Rev 5.30 072-000473-00 DGFHS 1082 NOVA Update 1 for DOS FORTRAN 4 Rev. 5.30 072-000473-00 DGFHS 1083 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN IV Compiler Rev. 5.50 072-000027-05 DGFHS 1084 NOVA Update 4, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 DGFHS 1085 NOVA Update 4, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 DGFHS 1086 NOVA Update 5, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 DGFHS 1087 NOVA Update 5, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 DGFHS 1088 NOVA Update 6, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 DGFHS 1089 NOVA Update 6, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 DGFHS 1090 NOVA Update 7, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 1 072-000291-03 DGFHS 1091 NOVA Update 7, N/Eclipse FORTRAN IV 5.50 DK 2 072-000309-00 DGFHS 1092 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 1 072-000052-04 DGFHS 1093 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 2 072-000055-04 DGFHS 1094 NOVA NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev. 6.10 DK 3 072-000511-01 DGFHS 1095 NOVA Upd. 1 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 DGFHS 1096 NOVA Upd. 1 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 DGFHS 1097 NOVA Upd. 2 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 DGFHS 1098 NOVA Upd. 2 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 DGFHS 1099 NOVA Upd. 3 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 DGFHS 1100 NOVA Upd. 3 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 DGFHS 1101 NOVA Upd. 4 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 DGFHS 1102 NOVA Upd. 4 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 DGFHS 1103 NOVA Upd. 5 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 1 072-000283-03 DGFHS 1104 NOVA Upd. 5 NOVA RDOS FORTRAN 5 Rev 6.10 DK 2 072-000712-00 DGFHS 1105 NOVA ALGOL Runtime Libraries 072-000047-00 DGFHS 1106 NOVA RDOS ALGOL Compiler Rev. 2.10 072-000046-01 DGFHS 1107 NOVA RDOS ALGOL Compiler Rev. 2.10 072-000046-01 DGFHS 1108 NOVA NOVA ALGOL Runtime Rev 2.10 072-000047-02 DGFHS 1109 NOVA NOVA ALGOL Runtime Rev 2.10 072-000047-02 DGFHS 1110 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 DGFHS 1111 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 DGFHS 1112 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 DGFHS 1113 NOVA Update 1 ALGOL Rev. 2.10 072-000288-00 DGFHS 1114 NOVA SOS Single User Extended BASIC 072-000067-00 DGFHS 1115 NOVA DOS BASIC 072-000092-01 DGFHS 1116 NOVA NOVA Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 DGFHS 1117 NOVA NOVA RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 DGFHS 1118 NOVA N/E RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 2 072-000355-02 DGFHS 1119 NOVA NOVA Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK 1 072-000030-06 DGFHS 1120 NOVA NOVA/Eclipse M/U Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 DK2 072-000355-02 DGFHS 1121 NOVA Update 1 for RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1122 NOVA Update 2 RDOS Extended BASIC Rev. 5.40 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1123 NOVA Update 3 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1124 NOVA Update 3 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev 5.40 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1125 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK1 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1126 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK2 072-000703-00 DGFHS 1127 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK1 072-000279-04 DGFHS 1128 NOVA Upd. 4 N/E RDOS Ext. BASIC Rev. 5.40 DK2 072-000703-00 DGFHS 1129 NOVA DG Plotter Software (From Tape) DGFHS 1130 NOVA DG Plotter Software (From Tape) DGFHS 1131 NOVA DG Diagnostics / Plot Subroutines DGFHS 1132 NOVA PLOT.DM Backup 12/14/76 DGFHS 1133 NOVA Floppy/Copy NOVA V1.1 FC-N-1384 DGFHS 1134 NOVA Copy Floppy Copy FC-N-1384 DGFHS 1135 NOVA DTOS Diagnostics DGFHS 1136 NOVA DTOS Model N1 on Diskette 075-000004-00 DGFHS 1137 NOVA DTOS Model N2 on Diskette 075-000005-00 (BAD) DGFHS 1138 NOVA DTOS Model P1 on Diskette 075-000006-03 DGFHS 1139 NOVA DTOS Model P2 on Diskette 075-000007-03 DGFHS 1140 NOVA DTOS Model P3 on Diskette 075-000008-03 From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 13 21:13:08 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:13:08 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation Message-ID: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> Cctalk'ers, Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! - Evan From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Oct 13 21:42:06 2015 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:42:06 -0800 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. Or maybe it was iconic already. Yah, that represents us old computer guys pretty well-- almost no one born after 1990 will know what it is! :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk at snarc.net > Sent: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:13:08 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation > > Cctalk'ers, > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs > the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! > > - Evan ____________________________________________________________ Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password? Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account. Check it out at http://mysecurelogon.com/manager From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue Oct 13 21:48:33 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:48:33 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <561DC281.9030608@connorsdomain.com> Born 1997 and I know what it is :) Then again my two main projects at the moment is a DG Nova 4 with the Disk Subsystem (5mb fixed platter and 5mb removable RL style pack) and a PDP 11/23 with a Cipher tape drive. So I might be in the 'almost' exception category ;) -Connor K On 10/13/2015 10:42 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. > Or maybe it was iconic already. Yah, > that represents us old computer guys > pretty well-- almost no one born after > 1990 will know what it is! > > :-) > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk at snarc.net >> Sent: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:13:08 -0400 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation >> >> Cctalk'ers, >> >> Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs >> the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion >> announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: >> http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! >> >> - Evan > ____________________________________________________________ > Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password? > Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account. > Check it out at http://mysecurelogon.com/manager > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 21:53:38 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:53:38 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DC281.9030608@connorsdomain.com> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <561DC281.9030608@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: the old logo also had this terminal, or something very close. Nothing better than the ADM3 IYAM and YCAM. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > Born 1997 and I know what it is :) > Then again my two main projects at the moment is a DG Nova 4 with the Disk > Subsystem (5mb fixed platter and 5mb removable RL style pack) and a PDP > 11/23 with a Cipher tape drive. > So I might be in the 'almost' exception category ;) > > -Connor K > > > On 10/13/2015 10:42 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > >> WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. >> Or maybe it was iconic already. Yah, >> that represents us old computer guys >> pretty well-- almost no one born after >> 1990 will know what it is! >> >> :-) >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk at snarc.net >>> Sent: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:13:08 -0400 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation >>> >>> Cctalk'ers, >>> >>> Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs >>> the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion >>> announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: >>> http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! >>> >>> - Evan >>> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password? >> Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account. >> Check it out at http://mysecurelogon.com/manager >> >> >> > -- Bill From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 22:02:07 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:02:07 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> Message-ID: Do you remember Carrol Touch terminals made in the area? I just picked up 2 still in the box! On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 13, 2015, at 1:22 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > > The Versatec electrostatic plotters are not the same as the VT52 > printer, they are > > yet another process. WIth those the paper passes between a set of > electrodes that > > build up a charge image on the paper. I beleive the paper is specially > treated to > > make it more resistive so the charge doesn't leak away too quickly, and > there is > > a clever multiplexing scheme for the electrodes to reduce the number of > HV drivers > > needed (IIRC there is around 600V between the electrodes on the 2 sides > of the > > paper. > > > > The paper then passes over a stream of liquid toner, which is attracted > to the charge > > image. The liquid evaporates leaving the toner on the paper. That's it, > no further > > processing. > > Speaking of Versatec: at University of Illinois, there was a PLATO > terminal that had a "Versatec screen printer". I never understood how that > worked. It smelled like the same electrostatic liquid toner technology. > But how the image got from the terminal to the printer is unclear. > Remember that these were plasma panel displays, where the graphics state > exists only inside the gas pixels in the panel. I wonder if they read out > the on/off state of the pixels somehow, but how to do that when there's a > 100 volt or so square wave voltage across the panel is not obvious. I have > never seen any documentation of this machine. > > paul > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 13 22:07:11 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:07:11 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <561DC6DF.8000408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/13/2015 8:42 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. > Or maybe it was iconic already. Yah, > that represents us old computer guys > pretty well-- almost no one born after > 1990 will know what it is! > > :-) Why not a TTY? That could still could be mistaken as more modern computer at a glance. Ben. From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 13 22:08:01 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:08:01 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <561DC711.4060706@snarc.net> > WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. Or maybe it was iconic already. Yah, that represents us old computer guys pretty well Glad you like it! I have a mid-2000s VCF West t-shirt that shows the front of an ADM3 on front, and the back of the terminal on back. Clever. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 13 22:17:03 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:17:03 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <561DC92F.8020200@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/13/2015 8:13 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Cctalk'ers, > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs > the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! No, but I take bribes. > - Evan I would get rid of the outer leaves and put just Vintage Computer Federation there instead. A tube, transistor and a early DTL? gate ic could go in the white space between the words Vintage Computer Federation. K.I.S.S works for logos. Ben. From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Oct 13 22:19:50 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:19:50 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DC6DF.8000408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <561DC6DF.8000408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561DC9D6.8060006@snarc.net> >> WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. Or maybe it was iconic >> already. Yah, that represents us old computer guys pretty well-- >> almost no one born after 1990 will know what it is! >> >> :-) > > Why not a TTY? That could still could be mistaken as more modern > computer at a glance. ADM3-style terminal just felt right, from an artistic perspective. Shape, color, etc. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 13 22:21:42 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:21:42 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DC711.4060706@snarc.net> References: <3FDFEDBBADA.000009FCn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <561DC711.4060706@snarc.net> Message-ID: <561DCA46.2020906@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/13/2015 9:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> WELL-- The ADM3 is now finally iconic. Or maybe it was iconic already. >> Yah, that represents us old computer guys pretty well > > Glad you like it! > > I have a mid-2000s VCF West t-shirt that shows the front of an ADM3 on > front, and the back of the terminal on back. Clever. But now don't they have real wearable computers or phones or something. When I think of portable devices, Agent 86's Shoe Phone comes to mind. Ben. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Oct 13 22:25:13 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:25:13 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation Message-ID: <89aca.36406492.434f2519@aol.com> Looks good Evan... Yea the ADM 3 a classic indeed! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/13/2015 7:13:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at snarc.net writes: Cctalk'ers, Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! - Evan From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 13 22:27:10 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:27:10 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> On Oct 13, 2015, at 1:22 PM, tony duell wrote: The Versatec electrostatic plotters are not the same as the VT52 >> printer, they are >>> yet another process. WIth those the paper passes between a set of >> electrodes that >>> build up a charge image on the paper. I beleive the paper is specially >> treated to >>> make it more resistive so the charge doesn't leak away too quickly, and >> there is >> Yes, I had a bunch of Versatec 1200A's with the Tektronix hard copy feature. the Versatec was the greatest graphics printer until laser printers came out, then they became instant boat anchors. Here's the process. There is a double-sided PC board that touches the face of the paper end-on, so the traces just come to the end of the board and make contact with the paper. On the 1200A, that was a 200 DPI printer, so each side of the PC board had 100 traces/inch, and they were interleaved, so you got to paint 200 raster lines/inch along the axis of the paper. The back side of the paper had wide electrodes that defined zones. One of these backplate electrodes was charged at a time to the opposite polarity of the front electrodes. I seem to remember there were +800, -200 and -800 V power supplies. The raster line was written about one inch at a time across the page, then the next backplate was charged and the next inch was written, etc. Once the whole line was written electrostatically on the paper, a stepper motor advanced the paper and the next line was written. About an inch from the writing electrodes, there was a toner applicator that produced a fountain of this hydrocarbon-smelling solventy stuff with the carbon toner suspended in it. The charge on the paper would attract the toner particles, and when the solvent dried (assisted by a blower) it pretty well stuck to the paper. The paper had this awful chalky feel on the print side, the toner smelled like printer's ink, and when it was working really well, the paper came out gray with fairly decent print. But, it was FAST!!! It could print at about 1000 LPM in print mode, and if your computer could feed it, it could plot images (black and white only) at better than a page every 10 seconds or so. So, it could actually run faster than most of today's laser printers - although the print quality, of course, was WAY worse. And, with the Tek hardcopy board, it could hardcopy a Tek storage tube terminal in less than 30 seconds. I still have some Versatec printed output, as I ran one here at my house for a couple years, from my MicroVAX. We did have a TEK hard copy unit before the Versatecs. That was a pretty awful unit. it had a line-scan CRT with a fiber optic faceplate that exposed the image onto thermal-developing silver paper-film that rolled past the CRT. It also made bad smells, and the paper came out brown with dark brown images on them. In normal fluorescent lighting, the hard copies started turning totally brown after just a day or two. Also, the silver paper was QUITE expensive, maybe close to a Dollar a page or something, even back in the 1970's. Jon From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 22:47:49 2015 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:47:49 +1300 Subject: Visual 100 Terminal - Circuit Diagram Wanted In-Reply-To: References: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561DD065.8070400@gmail.com> Thanks for the manual :) Much appreciated. No diagram but lots of other useful information. On 14-Oct-15 2:46 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Chote > wrote: > >> I know it exists out in the wild somewhere, but I can't find a copy >> myself. It's for a VT100 clone terminal called the Visual 100 - from around >> 1982. >> > I scanned the reference manual if you haven't found it elsewhere, has a > small amount of detail about the hardware, don't think it had a circuit > diagram though. I only have the manual, I haven't seen one for decades. > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B56jJyqriCmvZlpISXZaUkZRN28&usp=sharing From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 23:04:55 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:04:55 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have two backplanes, some boards somewhere ,but no panels, at least yet. Also a Diablo 30 or 31. On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > >> I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) > > > > I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. > > > > Now you know where you can leave it behind for a good old retirement :-) > > > > You don't happen to get that RK11-C from an eBay auction some 8 - 9, > > maybe 10 years ago? > > I did not. I've had it since August, 1984, and I got it from Software > Results shortly before starting to work there. It (along with a > stripped PDP-8/a and a DataSystems 310 desk) came with a pair of RK05 > drives: one RK05J and one RK05F (but no power supply) that I wanted to > use with the PDP-8. I'm told the whole pile came from Ohio State > Surplus sometime in 1983 or so. > > Sadly, I mangled the RK05F due to youth and inexperience. I might > still have the front cover for that RK05F in a box of parts, but I'm > pretty sure the rest of the drive got stripped for parts 30 years ago > to repair RK05J drives (if I knew then what I know now, I assure you > that events would have unfolded differently, but I had no docs and no > experience... then I had a series of "educational experiences" with > this hardware and am wiser now). I only ever saw one other RK05F in > the wild, FWIW. > > > I remember (just) one RK11-C passing by on eBay, and that was when I > > still worked at Oc? training centre, so at least 8 years ago. It sold for > > ~ $50 (IIRC). Will never forget that I let that one go! :-( > > That's an amazing price just for the pile of FLIPCHIPs. > > -ethan > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 23:15:05 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:15:05 -0400 Subject: H960 logo panel In-Reply-To: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151013174844.153F318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I might have prints for the rk11, and RK11 and RF11 on fische, when I can find them On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > I will probably download everything ... in my experience, websites > > with "/~xxxx/" in it seem to disappear after "some" time :-/ > > True, but pages maintained by institutions are almost equally bad about > staying put! Many's the time I've clicked on a link, and the target's > gone... > > I make a real effort to try and not not kill any URL to my Web site that > ever > worked (via redirects, if needed). I wish institutions were the same, but > alas, for most Web-masters, they apparently seem not to give a rodent's > posterior. > > But the downloading is a good idea - the more copies, the better (although > in > this particular case, it's not like the content is irreplacable). > > > > I have probably all PDP-11 models (except the PDP-11/50) > > ... > > I am not going to disassemble just for a scan. > > Well, the /45 front panel is easy: take out the 4 screws holding the bezel > on > (quite easy - unlike, say, removing an H7420 to clean it - something I am > probably going to have to do), and then take out the 3 counter-sunk screws > holding the panel on (ditto), remove the two knobs (ditto again) - done! > And > equally easy to reverse the process. > > > I could take pictures, but as you say, edges will warp a little. > > We've already got pretty good pictures of the 11/45 panel, and the RP11-C. > There are no RF11 or RK11-C images (that I know of - the RF11 manual only > has > a drawing, and the RK11-C manual, not even that), so if you have either of > those, a picture would be better than nothing. > > Noel > From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 13 23:25:55 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:25:55 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype Message-ID: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> I've been watching a lot of vintage computer videos put up by enthusiasts (thanks so much for that). I have been really fascinated lately by the Altair and teletypes, paper tape readers and so on. Just watching one fellow load BASIC into his Altair. you just felt the history and the connection to Bill Gates and all the pioneers of an era that was happening just as I was being born. I only ever see teletypes for sale on ebay, only in the US, and of course I don't bite because of shipping costs, plus usually people ask insane prices for them. I am wondering what a reasonable price should be for a unit with a paper tape reader, and any tips on how I might go about finding one beyond Craigs, etc, up here in Canada. And anything I should watch out for and so on. Thanks muchly, Brad From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 23:43:11 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:43:11 -0400 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On 14 October 2015 at 00:25, Brad wrote: > I only ever see teletypes for sale on ebay, only in the US, and of course I > don't bite because of shipping costs, plus usually people ask insane prices > for them. I am wondering what a reasonable price should be for a unit with > a paper tape reader, and any tips on how I might go about finding one beyond > Craigs, etc, up here in Canada. And anything I should watch out for and so > on. > Greenkeys mailing list: Has everything you ever wanted to know about Teletype machines (though most discussion revolves around Model 15 and Model 28; e.g. the "Baudot" machines you'd encounter for Telex, and in the applications most often discussed, RTTY. Of course discussion of the Model 33 (and other teleprinters both by Teletype Corporation and others) is welcome, and so is buying and selling and discussions of such. Also, cheers from a fellow Canuck. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 00:14:06 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 22:14:06 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Brad, I want to answer this, because it is going to entail a lot more than you expect. An ASR 33 cost me 1,700 from great guy Wane Durkee, teletypeparts.com. He refurbished the whole machine, a complete work-over and it is beautiful. He made a custom case to ship it to me. This is a very delicate mechanical device. In spite of the fabulous shipping crate, the bolts installed to secure the printer, the shipping guys let us down. The thing had very rough handling, sheared off the shipping bolts, the printer was totally shook up and Wayne and I are working on it to bring it back. You need to understand, and be prepared for handling a mechanical marvel, that there are virtually no replacement parts. You will have to be pretty good with your hands, have tools and a shop. This is a totally mechanical device, and the innovation in it, how it works is so clever you will not get it without some help. Lots of patience, and when things go wrong (they will) you will need the perseverance to stick with it. Mine is printing OK. It does not read the keyboard correctly because of the shake up. Stuff was bent (here is answerback key) and I hope to claim success shortly. Randy > From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:25:55 -0700 > > I've been watching a lot of vintage computer videos put up by enthusiasts > (thanks so much for that). I have been really fascinated lately by the > Altair and teletypes, paper tape readers and so on. Just watching one > fellow load BASIC into his Altair. you just felt the history and the > connection to Bill Gates and all the pioneers of an era that was happening > just as I was being born. > > > > I only ever see teletypes for sale on ebay, only in the US, and of course I > don't bite because of shipping costs, plus usually people ask insane prices > for them. I am wondering what a reasonable price should be for a unit with > a paper tape reader, and any tips on how I might go about finding one beyond > Craigs, etc, up here in Canada. And anything I should watch out for and so > on. > > > > Thanks muchly, > > > Brad > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 00:23:25 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:23:25 -0600 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561DE6CD.7090707@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/13/2015 11:14 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi Brad, > > I want to answer this, because it is going to entail a lot more than you expect. > > An ASR 33 cost me 1,700 from great guy Wane Durkee, teletypeparts.com. > He refurbished the whole machine, a complete work-over and it is beautiful. He made a custom case to ship it to me. > > This is a very delicate mechanical device. In spite of the fabulous shipping crate, the bolts installed to secure the printer, the shipping guys let us down. > The thing had very rough handling, sheared off the shipping bolts, the printer was totally shook up and Wayne and I are working on it to bring it back. > > You need to understand, and be prepared for handling a mechanical marvel, that there are virtually no replacement parts. You will have to be pretty good with your hands, have tools and a shop. This is a totally mechanical device, and the innovation in it, how it works is so clever you will not get it without some help. > > Lots of patience, and when things go wrong (they will) you will need the perseverance to stick with it. > > Mine is printing OK. It does not read the keyboard correctly because of the shake up. Stuff was bent (here is answerback key) and I hope to claim success shortly. > > Randy > > Also for reading in paper tape, a high speed punch and paper tape reader is often wanted. Ben. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 01:25:25 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:25:25 -0700 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS Message-ID: <006401d10649$1d667c10$58337430$@gmail.com> Woot! I finally got my HP 7970E (yeah, a year in the making!), HP 88780, and Overland Data OD3201 9-track tapes all working at the same time. One on HP-IB, one on SCSI-1, and one on Parallel Port interface. Only my ever finicky Qualstars got jealous and decided not to play ball. Here is a family video: https://youtu.be/eCBxNhEzIfc The DOS computer is a vintage Dolch PAC 65. Thanks for all here who helped with tips, documentation and software. Marc From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 14 02:11:00 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:11:00 +0200 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. /P On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Cctalk'ers, > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now > runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! > > - Evan From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 02:16:43 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:16:43 -0300 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Will they build spaceships? :D 2015-10-14 4:11 GMT-03:00 Pontus Pihlgren : > I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. > > But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. > Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. > > Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. > > /P > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Cctalk'ers, > > > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now > > runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! > > > > - Evan > From jason at textfiles.com Wed Oct 14 02:28:17 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:28:17 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I agree that it's good to have secondary companion designs just for things like stitched patches. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. > > But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. > Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. > > Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. > > /P > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Cctalk'ers, > > > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now > > runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! > > > > - Evan > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 14 03:01:16 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:01:16 +0200 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20151014080115.GC1984@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 04:16:43AM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Will they build spaceships? :D Probably, otherwise they would have made a more "wormy" logo :) /P > > 2015-10-14 4:11 GMT-03:00 Pontus Pihlgren : > > > I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. > > > > But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. > > Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. > > > > Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. > > > > /P > > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Cctalk'ers, > > > > > > Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now > > > runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion > > > announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: > > > http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! > > > > > > - Evan > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 14 03:39:25 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:39:25 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> Where is the vintage computer! I cant see one Rod On 14/10/2015 08:11, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. > > But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. > Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. > > Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. > > /P > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Cctalk'ers, >> >> Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now >> runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion >> announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: >> http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! >> >> - Evan -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 05:57:13 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 06:57:13 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> Message-ID: There are circumstantial / companion versions logo, stand by Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Oct 14, 2015 4:39 AM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Where is the vintage computer! I cant see one > > Rod > > > > On 14/10/2015 08:11, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. >> >> But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. >> Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. >> >> Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. >> >> /P >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> Cctalk'ers, >>> >>> Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now >>> runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion >>> announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: >>> http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! >>> >>> - Evan >>> >> > -- > Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 07:37:09 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:37:09 +0200 Subject: VAX in action In-Reply-To: References: <561C022F.5000906@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On 13 October 2015 at 02:33, Sean Caron wrote: > I will also lay the blame for my lack of inline quoting at the > feet of same; GMail makes a total hash of it. No it doesn't; it works perfectly. Either hit Ctrl-A to expand all, then trim as required, or if that's too hard, go into Settings and the Labs tab and enable: ?Quote selected text Ryan A Quote the text you have selected when you reply to a message. (Now works with the mouse too!) ? It does proper quoting as well or better than any offline MUA. I'm using it right now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 14 07:39:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:39:32 +0000 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca>, Message-ID: [ASR33] > This is a very delicate mechanical device. In spite of the fabulous shipping crate, the bolts > installed to secure the printer, the shipping guys let us down. The thing had very rough > handling, sheared off the shipping bolts, the printer was totally shook up and Wayne and > I are working on it to bring it back. A general point. The 'Typing Unit' -- that is the main chassis with the motor, carriage, platen, punch, in fact everything apart from the keyboard, tape reader and electronic unit is not normally bolted down. It rests on rubber mounts. If you are shipping an Model 33, you must either put in a shipping screw, or preferably remove the typing unit (it's just some electrical connections and the H-plate link to the keyboard trip linkage) and pack it separately. Otherwise you will have damage. If it;s a real Teletype as opposed to, say a Data Dynamics 390 (which is Teletype mechanicals in a Data Dynamics case) then note that the plastic cover is likely to have gone very brittle with age. Take care. > You need to understand, and be prepared for handling a mechanical marvel, that there are > virtually no replacement parts. You will have to be pretty good with your hands, have tools > and a shop. This is a totally mechanical device, and the innovation in it, how it works is so > clever you will not get it without some help. All I can say is YMMV (and mine certainly did). I rebuilt my first Model 33 when I was still at what you would call high school. Back then there was no WWW, no places to get manuals, no lists like this one. And I didn't have the paper manuals. I took the whole thing apart down to the last nut and bolt. And got it running. You need a good hand tool kit, but not that much more unless you need to make parts. Perhaps because I had a mis-spent childhood but I had no problems figuring out how it all works. It's not that complicated, it follows very logical principles. > Lots of patience, and when things go wrong (they will) you will need the perseverance to > stick with it. That I will agree with. My first one, working without manuals, took about 6 weeks of tinkering in the evenings after school and at weekends to get going. And it certainly didn't work first time (it almost did, I had misunderstood the print suppression linkage). -tony From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 07:59:02 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:59:02 -0500 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: I'll throw my two-cents in as I have a fairly modest collection of teletypes. A nice feature of the 32/33 is that the tape punch/reader is built-in, but understand that these were cost-reduced models that can be fairly finicky to get going and keep running. The issue right now is that the market for 33's is pretty hot due to computer folks looking to resurrect their minis, and the buyers usually have deep pockets to match (just check out completed auctions on ebay). I've had pretty good success searching out Craigslist for the generic 'teletype', and one in a while one will pop up. If you're willing to drive, all the better. And if you happen across a model 35 you'll be the envy of many a collector. This is the 8-level version of the 28 and was designed for 24/7 service. Absolutely bullet-proof, but you'll need an outboard punch and reader unless you happen across an ASR model. Check out youtube for a period video of one in action on the Dartmouth TSS. -C On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Brad wrote: > I've been watching a lot of vintage computer videos put up by enthusiasts > (thanks so much for that). I have been really fascinated lately by the > Altair and teletypes, paper tape readers and so on. Just watching one > fellow load BASIC into his Altair. you just felt the history and the > connection to Bill Gates and all the pioneers of an era that was happening > just as I was being born. > > > > I only ever see teletypes for sale on ebay, only in the US, and of course I > don't bite because of shipping costs, plus usually people ask insane prices > for them. I am wondering what a reasonable price should be for a unit with > a paper tape reader, and any tips on how I might go about finding one > beyond > Craigs, etc, up here in Canada. And anything I should watch out for and so > on. > > > > Thanks muchly, > > > Brad > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 14 08:01:26 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:01:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation Message-ID: <20151014130126.709FB18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Franchuk > I would get rid of the outer leaves I think I might agree - they don't add much, for the amount of space and complexity they add. Very clever to make them out of PCB traces, though! Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 08:22:24 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:22:24 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:04 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have two backplanes, some boards somewhere ,but no panels, at least yet. > Also a Diablo 30 or 31. I had a Diablo 30 but I lost it in a flood 25 years ago. :-( -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 08:33:43 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:33:43 +0200 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode Message-ID: I don't know if this memoir is well-known or not, but I thought it might interest. ? The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode A bridge to 21st Century Computing By Jack Allweiss Copyright 2010 My name is Jack A. Allweiss, also known as ?The Father of the B5900 System?. I did not give myself that title, my friends and co-workers at Burroughs Corporation did, and I consider it a great honor. This true story is about the B5900, and why it was an important milestone for Burroughs and later Unisys, as well as the computer industry in general. ? http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/BurrMain.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 14 08:43:41 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:43:41 +0000 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <561DE6CD.7090707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> , <561DE6CD.7090707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Also for reading in paper tape, a high speed punch and paper tape reader > is often wanted. Yes, IMHO the ASR33 reader is an interesting thing to have, but it's only 10cps, and it is not kind to the tapes. A good capstan-fed optical paper tape reader will do between 300 and 1000cps [1] and will not damage the tapes. Well worth trying to track one down as well as the Teletype [1] I have a soft spot for Trend paper tape readers. I have several HSR500s (bidirectional, 500cps) and UDR700s (unidirectional, 700 cps). The nice thing about them is that the automatically set the read threshold level, they can thus work with partically transparent tape, are unaffected by changed in the lamp brightness and are a doddle to set up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 14 08:55:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:55:17 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> , <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Yes, I had a bunch of Versatec 1200A's with the Tektronix > hard copy feature. the Versatec was the greatest graphics > printer until laser printers came out, then they became > instant boat anchors. Here's the process. Only in the sense that a PDP11, or a VAX, or a PERQ, or a is a boatanchor. My view is that a computer is a lot more than the processor, and that the peripherals should be preserved too. Yes the processor runs the old software, but emulators do that too, If you are interested (as I am) in the hardware then the peripherals are as interesting as the processor in a lot of cases > There is a double-sided PC board that touches the face of > the paper end-on, so the traces just come to the end of the That's it. IIRC that was the 'Nib electrode' in Versatec manuals. Somewhere I have a spare one for the V80 series. > board and make contact with the paper. On the 1200A, that > was a 200 DPI printer, so each side of the PC board had 100 > traces/inch, and they were interleaved, so you got to paint > 200 raster lines/inch along the axis of the paper. The back > side of the paper had wide electrodes that defined zones. > One of these backplate electrodes was charged at a time to > the opposite polarity of the front electrodes. I seem to > remember there were +800, -200 and -800 V power supplies. It's been a long time since I looked at the manuals, but IIRC the width of the back electrodes was half what you might expect -- half the 'repeat distance' of the nibs. The reason was to prevent edge effects between nibs and the adjacent back electrodes. > The raster line was written about one inch at a time across > the page, then the next backplate was charged and the next > inch was written, etc. Once the whole line was written > electrostatically on the paper, a stepper motor advanced the > paper and the next line was written. About an inch from the Was it a stepper motor? I am sure mine uses a permanent magnet DC motor. I do remember that the paper feed roller is in 2 parts with a differential gear between them. > writing electrodes, there was a toner applicator that > produced a fountain of this hydrocarbon-smelling solventy > stuff with the carbon toner suspended in it. The charge on It's called the 'toner fountain' in the manuals, but it actually works below atmospheric pressure. The results are that (a) the paper is sucked down onto the toner fountain and (b) if the paper is torn or runs out you don't get toner sprayed all over the machine room. The toner is circulated by a little electromangnetic pump. The toner system tends to block, I found that what we call 'white spirit' was a suitable solvent to unblock it. One time I tried the old 'suck it and see' method to get the pump valves working and found that the toner tastes horrible! [...] > We did have a TEK hard copy unit before the Versatecs. That > was a pretty awful unit. it had a line-scan CRT with a > fiber optic faceplate that exposed the image onto > thermal-developing silver paper-film that rolled past the > CRT. It also made bad smells, and the paper came out brown > with dark brown images on them. In normal fluorescent > lighting, the hard copies started turning totally brown > after just a day or two. Also, the silver paper was QUITE > expensive, maybe close to a Dollar a page or something, even > back in the 1970's. I don't have a Tektronix hard copy unit (one of the few oddball printers I've not managed to obtain) but I am told that the paper goes off with time, and that it unlikely there's any useable paper left for them ;-( -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 14 08:58:06 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:58:06 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:02 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Do you remember Carrol Touch terminals made in the area? I just picked up 2 > still in the box! Really? PLATO terminals? Or some other kind? I have a Carroll PLATO terminal at home. If you have one, you can connect it to the cyber1 PLATO system. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 14 09:00:15 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:00:15 -0400 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> ... > Yes, I had a bunch of Versatec 1200A's with the Tektronix hard copy feature. the Versatec was the greatest graphics printer until laser printers came out, then they became instant boat anchors. Here's the process. > > ... And, with the Tek hardcopy board, it could hardcopy a Tek storage tube terminal in less than 30 seconds. Ok, but for screen hardcopy, the question is how the image on the screen is read out so it can be fed to the printer. For the Tek storage tube case, that presumably is done by scanning the screen with the beam, which will produce the stored image in the same way as a TV camera tube works. But how would you do that in a plasma panel? paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 14 09:15:20 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:15:20 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of system we major in For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 Rod Smallwood On 14/10/2015 11:57, william degnan wrote: > There are circumstantial / companion versions logo, stand by > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Oct 14, 2015 4:39 AM, "Rod Smallwood" > wrote: > >> Where is the vintage computer! I cant see one >> >> Rod >> >> >> >> On 14/10/2015 08:11, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >>> I like it, especially the digital take on the laurel wreath. >>> >>> But as others have said, complex logos are not always a good choice. >>> Especially not if you intend to use it in print or on clothing. >>> >>> Perhaps you alreade have a less complex companion logo planned. >>> >>> /P >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:13:08PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> Cctalk'ers, >>>> >>>> Vintage Computer Federation -- the new 501(c)3 non-profit that now >>>> runs the MARCH museum, and which will soon make some major expansion >>>> announcements -- has a very cool new logo. Here's a preview: >>>> http://www.snarc.net/vcf-logo-preview.png. Hoping everyone likes it! >>>> >>>> - Evan >>>> >> -- >> Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 >> -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From ethan at 757.org Wed Oct 14 09:52:43 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of system we > major in > For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 > Rod Smallwood As time goes on more computers become vintage. -- Ethan O'Toole From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 10:01:28 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:01:28 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> , <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561E6E48.1020507@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 08:55 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > Was it a stepper motor? I am sure mine uses a permanent magnet > DC motor. I do remember that the paper feed roller is in 2 parts > with a differential gear between them. Yes, absolutely, on the Versatec 1200A. I put those motors in a milling machine. Big, round case stepper motors, with a ghastly resistor-transistor drive. >> writing electrodes, there was a toner applicator that >> produced a fountain of this hydrocarbon-smelling solventy >> stuff with the carbon toner suspended in it. The charge on > It's called the 'toner fountain' in the manuals, but it actually works > below atmospheric pressure. The results are that (a) the paper is > sucked down onto the toner fountain and (b) if the paper is torn > or runs out you don't get toner sprayed all over the machine room. The 1200A did not have any mechanism for negative pressure that I know of. The fountain was in the middle, then there was a larger, rectangular region around it that returned the fluid to the container. You could activate the pump while the lid was open, with a button on the machine. The toner would not overflow even with the paper away from the fountain. Now, there was ONE way to make it spill. If you opened or closed the lid while the drain space around the fountain was still filled, the drying blower would spray some of the toner. So, when the paper tore or some other mishap occurred, you had to wait 10 seconds or so before opening the cover. > The toner is circulated by a little electromangnetic pump. The toner > system tends to block, I found that what we call 'white spirit' was a > suitable solvent to unblock it. One time I tried the old 'suck it and > see' method to get the pump valves working and found that the toner > tastes horrible! How could you do that??? Just the smell of the stuff should have been adequate warning. >> We did have a TEK hard copy unit before the Versatecs. That >> was a pretty awful unit. it had a line-scan CRT with a >> fiber optic faceplate that exposed the image onto >> thermal-developing silver paper-film that rolled past the >> CRT. It also made bad smells, and the paper came out brown >> with dark brown images on them. In normal fluorescent >> lighting, the hard copies started turning totally brown >> after just a day or two. Also, the silver paper was QUITE >> expensive, maybe close to a Dollar a page or something, even >> back in the 1970's. > I don't have a Tektronix hard copy unit (one of the few oddball > printers I've not managed to obtain) but I am told that the paper > goes off with time, and that it unlikely there's any useable paper > left for them ;-( > > The fact that the paper turned brown within a day or so just sitting on the desk makes me think there would certainly be no paper remaining usable for this printer. The same type of system was used for some years after for making medical quick copies on ultrasound and similar machines. Usually, these were on about 5" wide paper, though. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 10:03:54 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:03:54 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561E6EDA.9000701@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 09:00 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 11:27 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>>> ... >> Yes, I had a bunch of Versatec 1200A's with the Tektronix hard copy feature. the Versatec was the greatest graphics printer until laser printers came out, then they became instant boat anchors. Here's the process. >> >> ... And, with the Tek hardcopy board, it could hardcopy a Tek storage tube terminal in less than 30 seconds. > Ok, but for screen hardcopy, the question is how the image on the screen is read out so it can be fed to the printer. For the Tek storage tube case, that presumably is done by scanning the screen with the beam, which will produce the stored image in the same way as a TV camera tube works. But how would you do that in a plasma panel? > > Actually, the plasma panels used a bistable effect, that was how the screen memory worked. Each pixel would stay lit once the discharge was struck. The drive electronics could scan a pixel and tell whether it was lit or not by the voltage across the pixel. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 10:05:51 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:05:51 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 09:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer > Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. > It follows that there must be three classes of vintage > computer. > We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what > type of system we major in > > For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 > Are you actually restoring a 360? I'd sure like to hear more if you are working on this! Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 14 10:15:23 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode Message-ID: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > I don't know if this memoir is well-known or not, but I thought it > might interest. > ... > http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/BurrMain.html Wow! What a fabulous story/writeup! Highly recommend to everyone. Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 14 11:46:09 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:46:09 +0000 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: <561E6E48.1020507@pico-systems.com> References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> , <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> , <561E6E48.1020507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: [Versatec paper feed motors] > Yes, absolutely, on the Versatec 1200A. I put those motors > in a milling machine. Big, round case stepper motors, with > a ghastly resistor-transistor drive. You've got me worried now... I have V80. Actually, it's ICL-badged, and has a GPIB adapter board at the back connected to the normal parallel port [1]. I was prepared to swear the motor in that is a normal DC motor, but perhaps I have misremembered it. I really don't want to strip it down tonight, and finding the manuals [2] Is an even bigger job. [1] This is a really odd board. It contains about 4 chips, one is a Fairchild thing that does the GPIB handshake, etc. Another is (IIRC) 48 pins, and is some kind of custom interface chip. I have never found out quite how the thing responds to GPIB data, one day I will set it up with the PERQ (which I have software to drive it on) and my HPIB analyser and take a look... The GPIB cable it came with had a 'barrier box' halfway along it. This was something more commonly used with modems in the UK (in fact when you had to rent the modem from the GPO it was actually required in many cases). A box with 24 inverse-series pairs of zeners and 24 fuses to mke darn sure you coudn't overvoltage any pin on the modem. Quite why it was needed here I don't know... [2] Still unpacking after the housemove a year ago. Need to get the bookshelves up so I can unpack the 100-200 boxes of books... > >> writing electrodes, there was a toner applicator that > >> produced a fountain of this hydrocarbon-smelling solventy > >> stuff with the carbon toner suspended in it. The charge on > > It's called the 'toner fountain' in the manuals, but it actually works > > below atmospheric pressure. The results are that (a) the paper is > > sucked down onto the toner fountain and (b) if the paper is torn > > or runs out you don't get toner sprayed all over the machine room. > The 1200A did not have any mechanism for negative pressure > that I know of. The fountain was in the middle, then there > was a larger, rectangular region around it that returned the > fluid to the container. You could activate the pump while Yes, that's like the V80, but I am pretty sure on that machine the 'fountain' is on the suction side of the pump, that is it sucks from the outer region. When there is paper present this causes toner to flow from the bottle up through the middle bit, then back round the outside to the pump and back to the bottle. Again I might be mis-remembering things... > > The toner is circulated by a little electromangnetic pump. The toner > > system tends to block, I found that what we call 'white spirit' was a > > suitable solvent to unblock it. One time I tried the old 'suck it and > > see' method to get the pump valves working and found that the toner > > tastes horrible! > How could you do that??? Just the smell of the stuff should > have been adequate warning. Got any better ways to unclog the pump? -tony From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 14 11:59:34 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:59:34 +0200 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay West Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 12:08 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DG S/130 progress Pictures of the S/130 system I'm building up are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 [... snip long cool progress description ...] Great series of pictures Jay! I planned to work last Saturday on the "dead" PDP-11/10, but got distracted to the NOVA 3 that I have. Probably because I am going to pick up a NOVA 4 (if the description of the guy is correct). After more than a year on a desk, I mounted the 6125 tape drive in the top of the rack with its power supply on the right side next to it. The rest of the system is very much like your system: 6125 tape drive, 6031 single 8" floppy drive, NOVA 3, and in the bottom a 6070 hard disk unit. > It would seem that DG didn't believe in anything plugging in to > interface boards. Instead, interface boards went in the cpu with no > external connectors. Then you wirewrap from the backplane from a given > slot to one (of a stack) of paddle boards bolted to the rear of the > cpu chassis. Those paddleboards have edge connectors, and that's where > you connect the device cable. Fun stuff. Indeed! I feel like being spoiled by DEC with connectors for everything. I have the controller board for the 6125, but I do not have the cable from the backplane to the paddle board. I *think* I do have the cable from the paddle board to the pin header on the 6125 board (the horizontally mounted one). My 6125 did power up correctly, but when I mount a tape and press BOT, it spools some tape and then stops. When I press BOT again, it spools again some tape. Did that a few times ... had to manually rewind the tape as REWIND did not work. Could be a missing BOT on the tape, or issues ... > So... some progress at least :) Keep posting! I am a "newbie" on DG stuff with a long road ahead. I am not sure whether the NOVA 3 is healthy either. Several bulbs of the console are probably burnt out. I am thinking about a replacement with LEDs as bulbs will continue to die. I have off-line some pages of DG on my website. As this will get more interest (from myself), I will upload them in a moment. At the bottom of the navigation section (left) will be an entry "Data General". Any comment and information is welcome! - Henk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 14 12:24:50 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > As time goes on more computers become vintage. But, do they all? Are there any that will NEVER be vintage, and still discarded by archeologists thousands of years from now? From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 14 12:34:54 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:34:54 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> Sorry old chap just an example. I'm a old DEC guy. My biggest system is a VAX I think the 360 was back in the days when they rented every thing so not much was left behind Mind you I would not turn down a racks worth of AS400 On 14/10/2015 16:05, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/14/2015 09:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer >> Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. >> It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. >> We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of >> system we major in >> >> For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 >> > Are you actually restoring a 360? I'd sure like to hear more if you > are working on this! > > Jon -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 12:43:16 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:43:16 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <20151014130126.709FB18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151014130126.709FB18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <561E9434.2050009@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 7:01 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > > > I would get rid of the outer leaves > > I think I might agree - they don't add much, for the amount of space and > complexity they add. Very clever to make them out of PCB traces, though! > > Noel > > Now my dumb idea was ... just keep the Video Terminal and have "Vintage Computer..." printed where the keys are as white keys. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 12:47:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:47:02 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561E9516.9020602@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 10:24 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> As time goes on more computers become vintage. > > But, do they all? Are there any that will NEVER be vintage, and still > discarded by archeologists thousands of years from now? I'm not even sure what "vintage" in the non-wine sense means. Can you press a bunch of Coleco Adams into an alcoholic beverage? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 13:04:29 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:04:29 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer > Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. > It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. > We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of system > we major in *snip* As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 13:07:00 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:07:00 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer IBM1130 In-Reply-To: <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561E99C4.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 9:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/14/2015 09:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer >> Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. >> It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. >> We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of >> system we major in >> >> For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 >> > Are you actually restoring a 360? I'd sure like to hear more if you are > working on this! Carl has a IBM 1130 http://rescue1130.blogspot.ca/ > Jon Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 13:10:44 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:10:44 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E9516.9020602@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E9516.9020602@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561E9AA4.1020003@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 11:47 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2015 10:24 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: >>> As time goes on more computers become vintage. >> >> But, do they all? Are there any that will NEVER be vintage, and still >> discarded by archeologists thousands of years from now? > > I'm not even sure what "vintage" in the non-wine sense means. Can you > press a bunch of Coleco Adams into an alcoholic beverage? > > --Chuck Now a Sinclair Z80 computer will hold that door open while you bring that keg of beer... From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 13:10:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:10:58 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00bf01d106ab$ad736450$085a2cf0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 14 October 2015 19:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation > > On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely Micro,Mini, > > and Mainframe. > > It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. > > We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of > > system we major in *snip* > > As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home Brew. > The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX but was it > out in 1975-76? Ben. > > I don't think we got to "Micro, Mini and Mainframe" until we got to 2nd and third generation computers.... ... 1st generation Valve Computers like the Bendix , Pegasus, EDVAC, Manchester MK1, CSIRAC were just "Computers" and don't conform to the above classes.... Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 14 13:12:15 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX > but was it out in 1975-76? If you mean some specific 74-series part, well, it depends on which one. But, if you mean 74-series logic in general, I think so. Sometime within a year or so of '78, I was working with the stuff, and it was as an undergrad, so I doubt I would have been working with just-released logic. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 14 13:16:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <561E9BE3.3050503@charter.net> On 10/14/2015 11:59 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay West Sent: Wednesday, October > >> It would seem that DG didn't believe in anything plugging in to >> interface boards. Instead, interface boards went in the cpu with no >> external connectors. Then you wirewrap from the backplane from a given >> slot to one (of a stack) of paddle boards bolted to the rear of the >> cpu chassis. Those paddleboards have edge connectors, and that's where >> you connect the device cable. Fun stuff. > > Indeed! I feel like being spoiled by DEC with connectors for everything. > I have the controller board for the 6125, but I do not have the cable > from the backplane to the paddle board. I *think* I do have the cable > from the paddle board to the pin header on the 6125 board (the horizontally > mounted one). > On both my Eclipse S/140 and Nova 4 the peripheral cables that go from the backplane to the paddle boards use one or two connectors that slip over the backplane pins instead of wire-wrapping onto the pins. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 14 13:46:09 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:46:09 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <561EA2F1.5050806@charter.net> On 10/14/2015 1:12 PM, Mouse wrote: >> The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX >> but was it out in 1975-76? > > If you mean some specific 74-series part, well, it depends on which > one. > > But, if you mean 74-series logic in general, I think so. Sometime > within a year or so of '78, I was working with the stuff, and it was as > an undergrad, so I doubt I would have been working with just-released > logic. > Absolutely. The TV typewriter was a Sept. 1973 article, and it used 7400 series logic (along with some Signetics stuff). My PDP-8/L, PDP-12 and PDP-11/20 are all chock full of the stuff - mostly SSI but a little MSI. My TI TTL Data Book is copyright 1973, and I have not come across much in the 7400 series TTL that isn't in there. (On the other hand, the EE lab course on computer design was done using DTL logic, with the interconnects using re-purposed IBM unit record machine plugboards). JRJ From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 14 13:48:00 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:48:00 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca>, Message-ID: <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype [ASR33] > This is a very delicate mechanical device. In spite of the fabulous > shipping crate, the bolts installed to secure the printer, the > shipping guys let us down. The thing had very rough handling, sheared > off the shipping bolts, the printer was totally shook up and Wayne and I are working on it to bring it back. A general point. The 'Typing Unit' -- that is the main chassis with the motor, carriage, platen, punch, in fact everything apart from the keyboard, tape reader and electronic unit is not normally bolted down. It rests on rubber mounts. If you are shipping an Model 33, you must either put in a shipping screw, or preferably remove the typing unit (it's just some electrical connections and the H-plate link to the keyboard trip linkage) and pack it separately. Otherwise you will have damage. If it;s a real Teletype as opposed to, say a Data Dynamics 390 (which is Teletype mechanicals in a Data Dynamics case) then note that the plastic cover is likely to have gone very brittle with age. Take care. > You need to understand, and be prepared for handling a mechanical > marvel, that there are virtually no replacement parts. You will have > to be pretty good with your hands, have tools and a shop. This is a > totally mechanical device, and the innovation in it, how it works is so clever you will not get it without some help. All I can say is YMMV (and mine certainly did). I rebuilt my first Model 33 when I was still at what you would call high school. Back then there was no WWW, no places to get manuals, no lists like this one. And I didn't have the paper manuals. I took the whole thing apart down to the last nut and bolt. And got it running. You need a good hand tool kit, but not that much more unless you need to make parts. Perhaps because I had a mis-spent childhood but I had no problems figuring out how it all works. It's not that complicated, it follows very logical principles. > Lots of patience, and when things go wrong (they will) you will need > the perseverance to stick with it. That I will agree with. My first one, working without manuals, took about 6 weeks of tinkering in the evenings after school and at weekends to get going. And it certainly didn't work first time (it almost did, I had misunderstood the print suppression linkage). -tony = ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 14 13:52:53 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:52:53 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <016401d106b1$88bcaee0$9a360ca0$@yahoo.ca> I appreciate the advice and I'll keep my eyes out. Vancouver hasn't really been a great place to find these kinds of things; I tend to be totally reliant on ebay, and as mentioned US shipping up to here has skyrocketed (not to mention our CDN dollar tanking). I guess mostly because Vancouver is relatively young and 40-50 years ago would not have been large enough to have a lot of this kind of thing around. I never see anything that vintage in our classifieds/craigs/buysell/etc. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory Heisterkamp Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype I'll throw my two-cents in as I have a fairly modest collection of teletypes. A nice feature of the 32/33 is that the tape punch/reader is built-in, but understand that these were cost-reduced models that can be fairly finicky to get going and keep running. The issue right now is that the market for 33's is pretty hot due to computer folks looking to resurrect their minis, and the buyers usually have deep pockets to match (just check out completed auctions on ebay). I've had pretty good success searching out Craigslist for the generic 'teletype', and one in a while one will pop up. If you're willing to drive, all the better. And if you happen across a model 35 you'll be the envy of many a collector. This is the 8-level version of the 28 and was designed for 24/7 service. Absolutely bullet-proof, but you'll need an outboard punch and reader unless you happen across an ASR model. Check out youtube for a period video of one in action on the Dartmouth TSS. -C On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Brad wrote: > I've been watching a lot of vintage computer videos put up by > enthusiasts (thanks so much for that). I have been really fascinated > lately by the Altair and teletypes, paper tape readers and so on. > Just watching one fellow load BASIC into his Altair. you just felt the > history and the connection to Bill Gates and all the pioneers of an > era that was happening just as I was being born. > > > > I only ever see teletypes for sale on ebay, only in the US, and of > course I don't bite because of shipping costs, plus usually people ask > insane prices for them. I am wondering what a reasonable price should > be for a unit with a paper tape reader, and any tips on how I might go > about finding one beyond Craigs, etc, up here in Canada. And anything > I should watch out for and so on. > > > > Thanks muchly, > > > Brad > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 13:56:17 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:56:17 -0400 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Rodents are the enemy of Teletypes. Be sure to check under the hood before you buy! I have a page with some info you can download that covers how to check out a Teletype before you buy it. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Brad wrote: > How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. > That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in > Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony > duell > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:40 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype > > > [ASR33] > > > This is a very delicate mechanical device. In spite of the fabulous > > shipping crate, the bolts installed to secure the printer, the > > shipping guys let us down. The thing had very rough handling, sheared > > off the shipping bolts, the printer was totally shook up and Wayne and I > are working on it to bring it back. > > A general point. The 'Typing Unit' -- that is the main chassis with the > motor, carriage, platen, punch, in fact everything apart from the keyboard, > tape reader and electronic unit is not normally bolted down. It rests on > rubber mounts. If you are shipping an Model 33, you must either put in a > shipping screw, or preferably remove the typing unit (it's just some > electrical connections and the H-plate link to the keyboard trip linkage) > and pack it separately. > Otherwise you will have damage. > > If it;s a real Teletype as opposed to, say a Data Dynamics 390 (which is > Teletype mechanicals in a Data Dynamics case) then note that the plastic > cover is likely to have gone very brittle with age. Take care. > > > > You need to understand, and be prepared for handling a mechanical > > marvel, that there are virtually no replacement parts. You will have > > to be pretty good with your hands, have tools and a shop. This is a > > totally mechanical device, and the innovation in it, how it works is so > clever you will not get it without some help. > > All I can say is YMMV (and mine certainly did). I rebuilt my first Model 33 > when I was still at what you would call high school. Back then there was no > WWW, no places to get manuals, no lists like this one. And I didn't have > the > paper manuals. I took the whole thing apart down to the last nut and bolt. > And got it running. You need a good hand tool kit, but not that much more > unless you need to make parts. > > Perhaps because I had a mis-spent childhood but I had no problems figuring > out how it all works. It's not that complicated, it follows very logical > principles. > > > Lots of patience, and when things go wrong (they will) you will need > > the perseverance to stick with it. > > That I will agree with. My first one, working without manuals, took about 6 > weeks of tinkering in the evenings after school and at weekends to get > going. And it certainly didn't work first time (it almost did, I had > misunderstood the print suppression linkage). > > -tony > = > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 > > -- Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 14 13:57:58 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:57:58 +0000 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca>, <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > But, if you mean 74-series logic in general, I think so. Sometime > within a year or so of '78, I was working with the stuff, and it was as > an undergrad, so I doubt I would have been working with just-released > logic. 74xxx logic dates from the late 1960s. There are plenty of production machines from 1970-1972 that are full of it (P850, various PDP11s, HP2100A, HP98x0, etc). So I think the OP must have been thinking of particular parts and their release dates. -tony From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 14:19:37 2015 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:19:37 +1300 Subject: Visual 200 (was Visual 100 Terminal - Circuit Diagram Wanted) In-Reply-To: References: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561EAAC9.6060205@gmail.com> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Chote > wrote: > >> I know it exists out in the wild somewhere, but I can't find a copy >> myself. It's for a VT100 clone terminal called the Visual 100 - from around >> 1982. >> > Mistake on my behalf. Was working on it last night and it's actually the earlier model, the Visual 200. After some basic repairs to the power supply section, I now have a flashing "ON" light on the keyboard which I believe is an error code from the self test (taking queues from the Visual 100 manual). CPU removed - "ON" light stays lit CPU installed - cold start - 3 beeps, then ON light flashes CPU installed - less than 5 minutes since last power up - ON light flashes, no beeps Messing with the Mask ROM in it's socket also created a few scenarios with lots of fast beeps, and the CAPS LOCK key staying lit, but I reseated it and the system returned to the above situation. CRT section doesn't appear to start up, but didn't blow up either, so that's a plus. Have not had a chance to go over it with a scope yet. So if anyone has... - parts list - user guide - circuit diagram - a spare logic board laying around - or remembers anything about these terminals Please let me know! Cheers, Jono From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 14:28:57 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:28:57 -0600 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. > That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in > Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last few years. It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. Ben. * I think books still send that way. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 14:39:28 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:39:28 -0400 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: You can ship these in a box if you detach the pedestal and put it on its side, making sure the main unit is well padded and there is a weight balance to the box, as you never know from what angle the box will sit/fall/land/be carried. I shrink wrap the main TTY to ensure it stays secure, then wrap in layers of bubble wrap and foam. I have shipped five or six that way. You can also use two boxes. It's very easy to re-attach the main unit from the pedestal, many have a reader motor in the pedestal, but you just unscrew it. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > >> How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. >> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in >> Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. >> > > Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last few > years. > It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for > overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still > need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. > Ben. > * I think books still send that way. > > > > -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 14:41:39 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:41:39 -0400 Subject: Visual 200 (was Visual 100 Terminal - Circuit Diagram Wanted) In-Reply-To: <561EAAC9.6060205@gmail.com> References: <561D8D73.3020007@gmail.com> <561EAAC9.6060205@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bare in mind the keyboard keys will likely have to be re-foamed. I had to do that with my Visual 1050, which is the full system version CP/M computer. I'd see if there are similarities to the 1050, I bet the video display circuits would have similarities, you might be able to find 1050 schematics if you can't find exactly what you have. Bill On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Jonathan Chote wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Chote > > >> wrote: >> >> I know it exists out in the wild somewhere, but I can't find a copy >>> myself. It's for a VT100 clone terminal called the Visual 100 - from >>> around >>> 1982. >>> >>> >> Mistake on my behalf. Was working on it last night and it's actually the > earlier model, the Visual 200. > > After some basic repairs to the power supply section, I now have a > flashing "ON" light on the keyboard which I believe is an error code from > the self test (taking queues from the Visual 100 manual). > > CPU removed - "ON" light stays lit > CPU installed - cold start - 3 beeps, then ON light flashes > CPU installed - less than 5 minutes since last power up - ON light > flashes, no beeps > > Messing with the Mask ROM in it's socket also created a few scenarios with > lots of fast beeps, and the CAPS LOCK key staying lit, but I reseated it > and the system returned to the above situation. > CRT section doesn't appear to start up, but didn't blow up either, so > that's a plus. Have not had a chance to go over it with a scope yet. > > So if anyone has... > - parts list > - user guide > - circuit diagram > - a spare logic board laying around > - or remembers anything about these terminals > > Please let me know! > > Cheers, > > Jono > -- Bill From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 14 14:45:27 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:45:27 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <6FCFB985-6F0D-4723-9A57-705ED8AB706F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-14, at 11:12 AM, Mouse wrote: >> The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX >> but was it out in 1975-76? > > If you mean some specific 74-series part, well, it depends on which > one. > > But, if you mean 74-series logic in general, I think so. Sometime > within a year or so of '78, I was working with the stuff, and it was as > an undergrad, so I doubt I would have been working with just-released > logic. From original sources/refs I have kicking around: - The first 54xx devices were introduced by TI in 1965. - 74xx was around by 1966. - H & L was around by 1969. - S was around by 1971. - LS was around by 1973. - ALS was around by 1981. I have a vague recollection of seeing ALS parts with 79 date codes. I suspect ben(OP) was alluding to when now-current or last-current TTL was introduced. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Oct 14 14:18:59 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:18:59 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:10:58 +0100" <00bf01d106ab$ad736450$085a2cf0$@gmail.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01PRWY3PFK8K00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> > > I don't think we got to "Micro, Mini and Mainframe" until we got to 2nd and > third generation computers.... > > ... 1st generation Valve Computers like the Bendix , Pegasus, EDVAC, > Manchester MK1, CSIRAC were just "Computers" and don't conform to the above > classes.... > Fred - where are you - come quick! Somebody said 1st generation on this list! Why haven't you got this covered :-) Oh never mind, I'll do it: "What about the Antikythera machine?" Ps: I'm not sure about the logo. It doesn't have the ADM3A ashtray and the keyboard doesn't look wide enough for the ADM5 layout including the numeric keypad on the right. Is/was there such a thing as an ADM4? Pps: I could never fathom the affection felt for the ADM3A - at college we had a lab containing a bunch of ADM5s and a single ADM3A. Everybody would work away on the ADM5s while the ADM3A sat lonely and unloved because most found it difficult to clear the screen on it (switching it off and back on worked if you got stuck!) and couldn't figure out how to get the PF keys when using it to talk to the IBM mainframe in fullscreen mode via 7171 protocol converters. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 14 14:48:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:42 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561EB19A.8070907@btinternet.com> I have in front of me my copy of the TTL databook for Design Engineers Its dated 1973. Its full of 74 series logic. Rod Smallwood On 14/10/2015 19:04, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer >> Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. >> It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. >> We dont need patches with pictures but it should say what type of system >> we major in *snip* > > As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home Brew. > The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use > 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. > > > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Oct 14 14:54:07 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:54:07 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <01PRWY3PFK8K00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <01PRWY3PFK8K00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <561EB2DF.9010207@snarc.net> > Ps: I'm not sure about the logo. It doesn't have the ADM3A ashtray and the keyboard doesn't look wide enough for the ADM5 layout including the numeric keypad on the right. Is/was there such a thing as an ADM4? That part of the image is only meant to * evoke * a terminal -- which it did. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 14 14:49:52 2015 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:49:52 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <561DC92F.8020200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:17 AM Subject: Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation > > I would get rid of the outer leaves and put just Vintage Computer > Federation there instead. A tube, transistor and a early DTL? gate ic > could go in the white space between the words Vintage Computer > Federation. K.I.S.S works for logos. > > Ben. > Agreed. I also noticed that the outer circumference (outer most part of the logo) doesn't appear to be a true circle, but more polygonal instead! (look *really* carefully) Was is created using some 3d rendering software??? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 15:36:25 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:36:25 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer TTL In-Reply-To: <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <561EBCC9.9050300@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 12:12 PM, Mouse wrote: >> The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use 74XXX >> but was it out in 1975-76? > > If you mean some specific 74-series part, well, it depends on which > one. > > But, if you mean 74-series logic in general, I think so. Sometime > within a year or so of '78, I was working with the stuff, and it was as > an undergrad, so I doubt I would have been working with just-released > logic. The design uses 74LS for low power and more drive, but nothing off hand not found in regular TTL, since this version uses random logic. A microcoded CPU needs 512 x 8 roms and 5 input Nor's (LS) something not found in the mid 70's I am guessing. Most of timing is ball park but still a good feel for TTL logic. Now pricing is harder to find ... surplus 3 7400's for 10 cents to $30 for prime new chips. Ben. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 14 15:36:38 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:36:38 +1300 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <561DC92F.8020200@jetnet.ab.ca> <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: >As time goes on more computers become vintage. ...as do their owners... (: Terry (Tez) On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ben" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:17 AM > Subject: Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation > > > > > I would get rid of the outer leaves and put just Vintage Computer > > Federation there instead. A tube, transistor and a early DTL? gate ic > > could go in the white space between the words Vintage Computer > > Federation. K.I.S.S works for logos. > > > > Ben. > > > > > Agreed. > > I also noticed that the outer circumference (outer most part of the logo) > doesn't appear to be a true circle, but more polygonal instead! (look > *really* carefully) > Was is created using some 3d rendering software??? > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 15:36:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:36:38 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely >> Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three >> classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but >> it should say what type of system we major in *snip* > > As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home > Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use > 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. --Chuck From scaron at umich.edu Wed Oct 14 09:16:19 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:16:19 -0400 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I stumbled upon that site a few months ago ... It's a great read! I wish he wrote more :O Best, Sean On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I don't know if this memoir is well-known or not, but I thought it > might interest. > > ? > > The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode > A bridge to 21st Century Computing > > By Jack Allweiss Copyright 2010 > > My name is Jack A. Allweiss, also known as ?The Father of the B5900 > System?. I did not give myself that title, my friends and co-workers > at Burroughs Corporation did, and I consider it a great honor. This > true story is about the B5900, and why it was an important milestone > for Burroughs and later Unisys, as well as the computer industry in > general. > ? > > http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/BurrMain.html > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 15:45:49 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:45:49 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <6FCFB985-6F0D-4723-9A57-705ED8AB706F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <201510141812.OAA17916@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <6FCFB985-6F0D-4723-9A57-705ED8AB706F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <561EBEFD.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 1:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > From original sources/refs I have kicking around: > > - The first 54xx devices were introduced by TI in 1965. > > - 74xx was around by 1966. > > - H & L was around by 1969. > > - S was around by 1971. > > - LS was around by 1973. > > - ALS was around by 1981. I have a vague recollection of seeing ALS parts with 79 date codes. > > I suspect ben(OP) was alluding to when now-current or last-current TTL was introduced. > I found a Fast databook from ~1980 from bitsavers. It is the odd chips that are harder to find like 6 bit identity comparator. Not that I need one, but it was on a S100 bus board I had once.Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 15:47:04 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:47:04 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EB19A.8070907@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EB19A.8070907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561EBF48.5010707@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 1:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have in front of me my copy of the > TTL databook for Design Engineers > Its dated 1973. Its full of 74 series logic. > > Rod Smallwood It's on my kindle,PC and tablet in digital form. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 15:47:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:47:53 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EB19A.8070907@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EB19A.8070907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561EBF79.1010305@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have in front of me my copy of the TTL databook for Design > Engineers Its dated 1973. Its full of 74 series logic. I have in front of me, the big thick brown "The Microelectronics Data Book" from Motorola, dated 1969. There were already several families of TTL: 5400/7400 (which I assume are copies of the TI SN54/74xx devices). MHTL, MTTL I, II and III (MC500, 2100, 3100 devices), and the MTTL Complex Functions (MC4000 series; 16-bit memory, decoders, parity tree, quad flip-flop). By 1969, there were imitations of the TI line as well as quite a bit of diversity. TTL takes up fully half of the book, with DTL, RTL and ECL bringing up the rear. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 15:50:02 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:50:02 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 2:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: >> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely >>> Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three >>> classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but >>> it should say what type of system we major in *snip* >> >> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home >> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use >> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. > > You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. What is a midi-computer? > --Chuck Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 14 15:53:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:53:56 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8B210DAE-F5BB-4820-99A6-4DBCB6CA3D35@comcast.net> > On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:50 PM, ben wrote: > > On 10/14/2015 2:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: >>> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely >>>> Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three >>>> classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but >>>> it should say what type of system we major in *snip* >>> >>> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home >>> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use >>> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. >> >> You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. > > What is a midi-computer? >> --Chuck Something a bit bigger than a mini. I think some marketeers tried to use that term for their answer to the VAX. It obviously didn't go very far, given that hardly anyone remembers the term. I'm not sure who specifically used it. Prime, perhaps? paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 15:56:06 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:56:06 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard Message-ID: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> On a sudden impulse, I put in a bid for an HP1663A logic analyzer for $30 and won for $29. Just got the thing--it's essentially in like-new condition--not even a scratch, no CRT burn and comes with the original set of pods and grabbers. Not so much as a fingerprint anywhere--even the line cord is clean. Must have come from a rental place. I've got the user and programming manuals, but that keyboard jack in the back has me befuddled. It's an RJ45 modular jack with the middle 4 positions populated. The manual only refers to it as a "standard" keyboard and mouse connector. What does that mean, exactly? What kind of signals does this "standard" keyboard use? Thanks, Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:57:43 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:57:43 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: HP-HIL. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a sudden impulse, I put in a bid for an HP1663A logic analyzer for $30 > and won for $29. Just got the thing--it's essentially in like-new > condition--not even a scratch, no CRT burn and comes with the original set > of pods and grabbers. Not so much as a fingerprint anywhere--even the line > cord is clean. Must have come from a rental place. > > I've got the user and programming manuals, but that keyboard jack in the > back has me befuddled. It's an RJ45 modular jack with the middle 4 > positions populated. The manual only refers to it as a "standard" keyboard > and mouse connector. What does that mean, exactly? What kind of signals > does this "standard" keyboard use? > > Thanks, > Chuck > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 14 15:57:49 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: >> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely >> > Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three >> > classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but >> > it should say what type of system we major in *snip* >> >> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home >> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use >> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. > > You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. Shouldn't it be microcomputer, minicomputer, midicomputer and maxicomputer? (think skirts) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Oct 14 16:05:25 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <561DC92F.8020200@jetnet.ab.ca> <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <561EC395.1050101@snarc.net> > I also noticed that the outer circumference (outer most part of the logo) doesn't appear to be a true circle, but more polygonal instead! (look*really* carefully) Was is created using some 3d rendering software??? Good eye! Yes, we used a 3D CAD program, so that someday we could make models of the logo. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 16:07:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:07:20 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 01:50 PM, ben wrote: > What is a midi-computer? Well, a web search brings up this as the first entry: "An earlier term for a computer with performance and capacity between a minicomputer and a mainframe. " A CW 1979 article about the Association of Computer Users (ACU) it as "a computer costing between $50,000 and $200,000). --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:08:19 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:08:19 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: Nice score on the HP 1663A. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321884393529?orig_cvip=true You would probably end up paying more for an HP-HIL keyboard such as an 46021A than you did for the 1663A. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > HP-HIL. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On a sudden impulse, I put in a bid for an HP1663A logic analyzer for $30 >> and won for $29. Just got the thing--it's essentially in like-new >> condition--not even a scratch, no CRT burn and comes with the original set >> of pods and grabbers. Not so much as a fingerprint anywhere--even the line >> cord is clean. Must have come from a rental place. >> >> I've got the user and programming manuals, but that keyboard jack in the >> back has me befuddled. It's an RJ45 modular jack with the middle 4 >> positions populated. The manual only refers to it as a "standard" keyboard >> and mouse connector. What does that mean, exactly? What kind of signals >> does this "standard" keyboard use? >> >> Thanks, >> Chuck >> > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 16:08:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:08:29 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EC44D.7010000@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 01:57 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > HP-HIL. That's what I suspected. Thanks! --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 16:09:25 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:09:25 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EC485.6080704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 2:57 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: >>> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely >>> > Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three >>> > classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but >>> > it should say what type of system we major in *snip* >>> >>> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home >>> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use >>> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. >> >> You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. > > Shouldn't it be microcomputer, minicomputer, midicomputer and > maxicomputer? (think skirts) > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > Where do sign up for the Vintage Mini-skirt list ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 16:12:22 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:12:22 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EC536.3030803@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2015 01:50 PM, ben wrote: > >> What is a midi-computer? > > > Well, a web search brings up this as the first entry: > > "An earlier term for a computer with performance and capacity between a > minicomputer and a mainframe. " > > A CW 1979 article about the Association of Computer Users (ACU) it as "a > computer costing between $50,000 and $200,000). Oh! an APPLE I found on ebay. > --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 14 16:19:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:19:10 -0500 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EC6CE.5090706@charter.net> On 10/14/2015 3:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a sudden impulse, I put in a bid for an HP1663A logic analyzer for > $30 and won for $29. Just got the thing--it's essentially in like-new > condition--not even a scratch, no CRT burn and comes with the original > set of pods and grabbers. Not so much as a fingerprint anywhere--even > the line cord is clean. Must have come from a rental place. > > I've got the user and programming manuals, but that keyboard jack in the > back has me befuddled. It's an RJ45 modular jack with the middle 4 > positions populated. The manual only refers to it as a "standard" > keyboard and mouse connector. What does that mean, exactly? What kind > of signals does this "standard" keyboard use? > > Thanks, > Chuck > HP HIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIL_bus That is why I held out for my 1672 - it has PS/2 keyboard and mouse, and Ethernet. JRJ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 16:17:22 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:17:22 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <8B210DAE-F5BB-4820-99A6-4DBCB6CA3D35@comcast.net> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <8B210DAE-F5BB-4820-99A6-4DBCB6CA3D35@comcast.net> Message-ID: <561EC662.7010404@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 01:53 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Something a bit bigger than a mini. I think some marketeers tried to > use that term for their answer to the VAX. It obviously didn't go > very far, given that hardly anyone remembers the term. I'm not sure > who specifically used it. Prime, perhaps? Harris, for one. A quick google through CW shows an early mention in 1975 and a late one in 1984. So longer, apparently, that most people think. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 14 16:17:33 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:17:33 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) Message-ID: <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> I found a company selling new 8" 32-sector hard sector floppies. http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html Item # 47-0801 They want $150 per box of 10. That's a pretty hefty pricetag... but in the absence of other suppliers I may just have to break down and buy a box from them. J From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 16:25:57 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:25:57 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 02:08 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Nice score on the HP 1663A. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/321884393529?orig_cvip=true > > You would probably end up paying more for an HP-HIL keyboard such as > an 46021A than you did for the 1663A. A quick check on prices for a HP A4220-62001, adapter seems to show that they aren't terribly expensive. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 14 16:42:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, a web search brings up this as the first entry: > "An earlier term for a computer with performance and capacity between a > minicomputer and a mainframe. " > A CW 1979 article about the Association of Computer Users (ACU) it as "a > computer costing between $50,000 and $200,000). It requires a crew to move it, but they don't have to be union. You can lose a screw or a jumper in a Micro You can lose a multimeter in a Mini you can lose a scope in a Midi you can lose a technician in a Mainframe. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 14 17:07:55 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:07:55 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> Henk wrote... >Great series of pictures Jay! Thanks! Most of those pics are "so I don't forget where wires go", but some of them are presentable :) >After more than a year on a desk, I mounted the 6125 tape drive in the top of the rack with its power supply on the right side next to it. I went to mount my 6125 today, but alas I may have to get creative. My 6125 was in a "desktop" stand, and when I remove the power supply and also look at the DG Installation docs - it appears that they used a different sheet metal backing to mount the 6125 in a rack (on the side, as you say) rather than on the desktop unit. I was sooo hoping to just remove and mount. Well, either they used different metal or my vertical posts are spaced different than expected. I don't think it's the latter, because all the measurements matched with the installation guide for the cpu and the 6030 disk unit. Hummmm.. looking at pictures... it's the former. The sheet metal the PS is mounted on is definitely shorter (left to right) on mine than what is pictured. I guess I now have a use for the metal brake that I just bought yesterday that is still in my car ;) >Indeed! I feel like being spoiled by DEC with connectors for everything. Anything I would say to that would probably start a flame-war between DEC and DG enthusiasts, so I'll just leave that one alone ;) >I have the controller board for the 6125, but I do not have the cable from the backplane to the paddle board. I *think* I do have the cable from the paddle board to the pin header on the 6125 board (the horizontally mounted one). As Bruce pointed out to me, there are actually only a few different backplane wirings. Since it hasn't been rackmounted yet, I haven't gone searching all the DG racks to see if I have any of the internal or external or device cables for the 6125. We'll see. I suspect I will have to make all my own cables; all my DG gear came from two collectors in separate acquisitions - with one exception. This 6125 I bought off a shelf at the local electronics haunt years ago, and it had no cables. >My 6125 did power up correctly, but when I mount a tape and press BOT, it spools some tape and then stops. When I press BOT again, it spools again some tape. Did that a few times ... had to manually rewind the tape as REWIND did not work. Could be a missing BOT on the tape, or issues ... If there's no BOT tape on the tape, yeah. If there is, I'd look first at testing the BOT/EOT sensor. I think there's a procedure for that in the manual. ISTR that when it hits the BOT tape, it actually backs up a little so it can get a "running jump". >Keep posting! I am a "newbie" on DG stuff with a long road ahead. Ditto here, new to DG gear as well. Bruce has been a great help, but pouring over docs for hours has been invaluable. Best, J From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 14 17:25:22 2015 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:25:22 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jay, have you tried floppydisk.com? Their site only shows 3.5 and 5.25" floppies, but they do have 8" too (although not cheap). Not sure if they'll have the hard-sectored ones but they have SSSD soft-sectored (for my RX01) at $90 for a pack of ten. Going rate on ebay is $25-35 a pack... From rob at bitscience.ca Wed Oct 14 17:40:47 2015 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:40:47 -0700 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) Message-ID: <07C428A0-CDE3-49CB-BECE-CC1608F5AD0C@bitscience.ca> Hi Folks, Does anyone have a electronic copy of the original Decmate Owner?s Guide (AA-K330C-TA) that they could share? Alternatively, can anyone describe what can be accomplished (if anything) from the initial ?Setup? prompt on a VT278 *without* any disks attached? The situation is that Brent and I are trying to resurrect a Decmate ? we?ve plugged in a VT100 keyboard (Thanks, Bill!): - it boots to the ?Setup? prompt with the flashing cursor. - the ?Power? light on the rear of the unit is steady and the ?CPU OK? light is blinking. - the keyboard lights indicate ?online" - pressing ?2? or ?PF3? cause ?Setup? to disappear. ?3? seems to cause it to perform some self-test like procedure. - most keys cause keyclicks, but ?space?, ?M?, and ?/' don?t. With an oscilloscope, we can see data from the keyboard being sent for the ?silent? keys, however. Without disks, what else should we able to do? Eventually, we?d like to find or construct some solution for mass storage, but we?re still at the point of checking out the VT278 itself. Thanks, Rob Ferguson From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:51:21 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:51:21 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: If that's the one I'm thinking of, it's not an active adapter- it was more akin to a breakout- and went to (and *only* to) the HP 715. There's no way to cheat that I know of, you need to find an actual HIL keyboard. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2015 02:08 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> Nice score on the HP 1663A. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321884393529?orig_cvip=true >> >> You would probably end up paying more for an HP-HIL keyboard such as >> an 46021A than you did for the 1663A. >> > > A quick check on prices for a HP A4220-62001, adapter seems to show that > they aren't terribly expensive. > > --Chuck > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 17:52:11 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:52:11 -0600 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 3:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, a web search brings up this as the first entry: >> "An earlier term for a computer with performance and capacity between >> a minicomputer and a mainframe. " >> A CW 1979 article about the Association of Computer Users (ACU) it as >> "a computer costing between $50,000 and $200,000). > > It requires a crew to move it, but they don't have to be union. > > You can lose a screw or a jumper in a Micro > You can lose a multimeter in a Mini > you can lose a scope in a Midi > you can lose a technician in a Mainframe. you can lose your lovers with a Cray From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:54:17 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:54:17 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > A quick check on prices for a HP A4220-62001, adapter seems to show that > they aren't terribly expensive. > It has never been clear to me whether those adapter boxes actually do what you would want to do here, i.e. allow you to plug a PS/2 keyboard and/or mouse into an HP-HIL host port and allow the PS/2 devices to function as native HP-HIL devices. Some references on the net indicate that at least some of those adapter boxes were really just passive breakout boxes where the host natively supported both HP-HIL and PS/2 protocols but just had a proprietary connector that needed to be broken out into HP-HIL and PS/2 connectors. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:55:49 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:55:49 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > A quick check on prices for a HP A4220-62001, adapter seems to show that > > they aren't terribly expensive. > > > > It has never been clear to me whether those adapter boxes actually do > what you would want to do here, i.e. allow you to plug a PS/2 keyboard > and/or mouse into an HP-HIL host port and allow the PS/2 devices to > function as native HP-HIL devices. > > Some references on the net indicate that at least some of those > adapter boxes were really just passive breakout boxes where the host > natively supported both HP-HIL and PS/2 protocols but just had a > proprietary connector that needed to be broken out into HP-HIL and > PS/2 connectors. > I have one sitting in a drawer at home, I can crack it open tonight if anyone's curious what's inside ;). - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 17:58:27 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:58:27 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EDE13.8040408@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/15 3:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have one sitting in a drawer at home, I can crack it open tonight if > anyone's curious what's inside ;). > Did that a while ago, and they are passive. They are designed to work with a PA-RISC workstation that can deal with either kind of keyboard on the same connector From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:58:49 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:58:49 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: I'm curious to see for sure. In fact I may need one for my HP 715. But I'm also 99.9% sure it is not useful for what Chuck has in mind. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > > A quick check on prices for a HP A4220-62001, adapter seems to show > that > > > they aren't terribly expensive. > > > > > > > It has never been clear to me whether those adapter boxes actually do > > what you would want to do here, i.e. allow you to plug a PS/2 keyboard > > and/or mouse into an HP-HIL host port and allow the PS/2 devices to > > function as native HP-HIL devices. > > > > Some references on the net indicate that at least some of those > > adapter boxes were really just passive breakout boxes where the host > > natively supported both HP-HIL and PS/2 protocols but just had a > > proprietary connector that needed to be broken out into HP-HIL and > > PS/2 connectors. > > > > I have one sitting in a drawer at home, I can crack it open tonight if > anyone's curious what's inside ;). > > - Josh > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 18:27:55 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:27:55 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > OK so if we agree there are three classes computer > Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. > It follows that there must be three classes of vintage computer. A man in a black suit and skinny tie came by and asked that we not forget the Midrange (System/3, System/3x, AS/400...) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 18:32:54 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:32:54 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > A man in a black suit and skinny tie came by and asked that we not > forget the Midrange (System/3, System/3x, AS/400?) I do not think IBM ever really did black suits. Navy blue and dark grey, although the skinny tie era was before these machines (maybe the fat, good-for-eatin'-ribs ties of the 1970s would work). Anyway, "midrange" was a dumb marketing term that they forced on us. They are all really minis, no matter who does not want to admit it. -- Will From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 18:34:39 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:34:39 -0500 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Brad, A few montns ago, with a fair bit of help of the folks on this list, I did up an Altair 8800 rebuild. And apparently you & I both saw the same videos, as I got all hot and bothered about getting an ASR33 and using it to load software - BASIC, for starters - into the Altair. And again, on members' suggestion, I joined the Greenkeys list. Too bad, but I was totally +shocked+ at the 'value' placed on ASR33 these days!! Thousand dollars and more, not all all unusual.. and my resources just can't justify that level of expenditure for what is generally a 'cheap' DIY hobby of sorts. Meanwhile, a Greenkeys member in St. Louis, MO popped up with a very nice M15 (ex-Bell) that was Free to Good Home. I have (or at least had, ha!) a good friend in St. Louis, and he was able to take care of the pickup for me - and several months later, i arranged to have it delivered to my house by a relative. Now the M15 isn't a 33ASR, and lacks the paper tape punch & reader (though devices do exist). But what it is, is a truly fantastic piece of electro-mechanical engineering that borders on the "tight metal" genre of some earlier business machines, such as the Felt & Tarrant Comptometer. If you have general mechanical experience, I'd say the M15 is roughly on a par with a 2-spd or even 3-spd automatic transmission, in terms of mechanical complexity (the the tranny will have a higher parts count.. I think!). So while they can be worked with, and documentation is plentiful, they are a bit intimidating the first time you see one in action - or inaction, as it may be - and they do NOT respond kindly to false moves or other ham-fistery. But they are well worth learning, and don't yet seem to have joined their later progeny in the financial stratosphere. -Bill On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:39 PM, william degnan wrote: > You can ship these in a box if you detach the pedestal and put it on its > side, making sure the main unit is well padded and there is a weight > balance to the box, as you never know from what angle the box will > sit/fall/land/be carried. I shrink wrap the main TTY to ensure it stays > secure, then wrap in layers of bubble wrap and foam. I have shipped five > or six that way. You can also use two boxes. It's very easy to re-attach > the main unit from the pedestal, many have a reader motor in the pedestal, > but you just unscrew it. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, ben wrote: > > > On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > > > >> How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. > >> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in > >> Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. > >> > > > > Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last > few > > years. > > It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for > > overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still > > need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. > > Ben. > > * I think books still send that way. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bill > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Oct 14 18:46:54 2015 From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:46:54 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype Message-ID: Be patient. 75 dollar 33s still exist Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "drlegendre ." Date: 10/14/2015 16:34 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype Brad, A few montns ago, with a fair bit of help of the folks on this list, I did up an Altair 8800 rebuild. And apparently you & I both saw the same videos, as I got all hot and bothered about getting an ASR33 and using it to load software - BASIC, for starters - into? the Altair. And again, on members' suggestion, I joined the Greenkeys list. Too bad, but I was totally +shocked+ at the 'value' placed on ASR33 these days!! Thousand dollars and more, not all all unusual.. and my resources just can't justify that level of expenditure for what is generally a 'cheap' DIY hobby of sorts. Meanwhile, a Greenkeys member in St. Louis, MO popped up with a very nice M15 (ex-Bell) that was Free to Good Home. I have (or at least had, ha!) a good friend in St. Louis, and he was able to take care of the pickup for me - and several months later, i arranged to have it delivered to my house by a relative. Now the M15 isn't a 33ASR, and lacks the paper tape punch & reader (though devices do exist). But what it is, is a truly fantastic piece of electro-mechanical engineering that borders on the "tight metal" genre of some earlier business machines, such as the Felt & Tarrant Comptometer. If you have general mechanical experience, I'd say the M15 is roughly on a par with a 2-spd or even 3-spd automatic transmission, in terms of mechanical complexity (the the tranny will have a higher parts count.. I think!). So while they can be worked with, and documentation is plentiful, they are a bit intimidating the first time you see one in action - or inaction, as it may be - and they do NOT respond kindly to false moves or other ham-fistery. But they are well worth learning, and don't yet seem to have joined their later progeny in the financial stratosphere. -Bill On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:39 PM, william degnan wrote: > You can ship these in a box if you detach the pedestal and put it on its > side, making sure the main unit is well padded and there is a weight > balance to the box, as you never know from what angle the box will > sit/fall/land/be carried.? I shrink wrap the main TTY to ensure it stays > secure, then wrap in layers of bubble wrap and foam.? I have shipped five > or six that way.? You can also use two boxes.? It's very easy to re-attach > the main unit from the pedestal, many have a reader motor in the pedestal, > but you just unscrew it. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, ben wrote: > > > On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > > > >> How heavy are these things?? They look like solid steel in pictures. > >> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in > >> Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. > >> > > > > Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last > few > > years. > > It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for > > overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still > > need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. > > Ben. > > * I think books still send that way. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bill > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 18:50:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:50:44 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <561EEA54.30201@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 03:58 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I'm curious to see for sure. In fact I may need one for my HP 715. > But I'm also 99.9% sure it is not useful for what Chuck has in mind. I think you're right. Check out the conversation here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.rescue/19389 Note the post by Brian Wheeler giving the pinout. Clearly, in this case, the 715 supports both and it's just a matter of passive connections. That's not the case for the 1663 logic analyzer. Ah, well. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 18:56:45 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:56:45 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 6:32 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I do not think IBM ever really did black suits. Navy blue and dark > grey, although the skinny tie era was before these machines (maybe the > fat, good-for-eatin'-ribs ties of the 1970s would work). Ah yeah, but I imagined stodgy IBM never giving in to trends on the tie issue. And you're right, black would be too elegant. Business-grey is the way. > Anyway, "midrange" was a dumb marketing term that they forced on us. > They are all really minis, no matter who does not want to admit it. That's the way I took it - IBM insisting on their own lexicon. Was Midrange ever used by anyone else? From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 14 19:08:32 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:08:32 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 Message-ID: <561EEE80.4050503@jwsss.com> Someone on FB pointed out that the 029 was announced this day in 1964. I've got one as well as a 129. I didn't realize they were that old of a product. The 029 was the first keypunch I used in school. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV4002.html Thanks Jim From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Oct 14 19:23:27 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:23:27 +0200 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1444868607.5181.6.camel@agj.net> ons 2015-10-14 klockan 13:57 -0700 skrev Ian Finder: > HP-HIL. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: The HP HCL speaks about a HIL-only host (SPU) to PS/2-keyboard adapter from mic.com The 9000/715 (and 725/100) computers had a special HIL-port (SMD-10) which required an break-out box. It seems to exist a PS/2 (system)-to-HIL (keyboard/mouse) for those who likes their old HIL keyboards. OR have sw which requires the identity HIL dongle. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 22:11:59 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:11:59 -0500 Subject: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL In-Reply-To: References: <1CBF8850-2FC5-4492-9707-EE53738F29A5@nf6x.net> <7F8F049E-2917-4765-9074-6F38C0FBC0F9@comcast.net> <3AA5F734-06DC-4310-BB56-3CDF2D28BD5A@comcast.net> , <561DCB8E.5020602@pico-systems.com> , <561E6E48.1020507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561F197F.7070703@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 11:46 AM, tony duell wrote: > [Versatec paper feed motors] > >> Yes, absolutely, on the Versatec 1200A. I put those motors >> in a milling machine. Big, round case stepper motors, with >> a ghastly resistor-transistor drive. > You've got me worried now... > > I have V80. Actually, it's ICL-badged, and has a GPIB adapter board at the back > connected to the normal parallel port [1]. I was prepared to swear the motor in > that is a normal DC motor, but perhaps I have misremembered it. I really don't > want to strip it down tonight, and finding the manuals [2] Is an even bigger job. Versatec made a lot of stuff, and went through a whole bunch of iterations. But, a stepper seems MOST logical to advance the paper every time the line has been written. A stepper is great to start and stop on a dime, and otherwise stay perfectly in synch with intermittent data from the computer. The motor drive is inside the hinged top of the printer, but no telling if the V80 was built the same way. > > Yes, that's like the V80, but I am pretty sure on that machine the > 'fountain' is on the suction side of the pump, that is it sucks from the outer > region. I can absolutely say the 1200A did not work that way, as you could manually start the fountain pump with the cover open. Now that I think about it more, I don't think you were supposed to be able to do that, but you could push a relay manually to do it. Without the paper there, it could overflow if you let the pump run too long. > When there is paper present this causes toner to flow from the > bottle up through the middle bit, then back round the outside to the pump > and back to the bottle. Again I might be mis-remembering things... That makes some sense, as it makes it pretty impossible to cause a spill. But, it probably takes a lot longer to get the fountain started that way. >> How could you do that??? Just the smell of the stuff should >> have been adequate warning. > Got any better ways to unclog the pump? > > We never, ever had the pump clog. Sometimes we needed to clean gunk out of the fountain area, but the pumps were never a problem. The pump ran filled with the toner, and was below toner level in the bottle. Sometimes if you hadn't printed in a while, the first page would come out partially blank, but then it would get going and work fine. Not sure if the V80 worked the same way, it sounds like maybe it was allowed to drip down and go dry when not printing. That might have been the cause of the clogging. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 22:16:18 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:16:18 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 12:34 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sorry old chap just an example. I'm a old DEC guy. My > biggest system is a VAX > > I think the 360 was back in the days when they rented > every thing so not much was left behind > Mind you I would not turn down a racks worth of AS400 > In the EARLY days of the 360, that was true, but in later days many people owned their machines. Washington University rented their 360/50, but then bought a used 360/65, and then added two used 370/145s. Despite the number of 360s made, there are REALLY few left, and I'm not sure anybody has any that run. (Of course, with the SLT modules, spares would be a REAL problem.) Yup, for sentimental reasons, I still have my MicroVAX-II here. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 14 22:21:10 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:21:10 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer IBM1130 In-Reply-To: <561E99C4.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E99C4.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561F1BA6.9080005@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 01:07 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 9:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 10/14/2015 09:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer >>> Namely Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. >>> It follows that there must be three classes of vintage >>> computer. >>> We dont need patches with pictures but it should say >>> what type of >>> system we major in >>> >>> For example Rod's Retro Restorations - IBM360 >>> >> Are you actually restoring a 360? I'd sure like to hear >> more if you are >> working on this! > > Carl has a IBM 1130 > http://rescue1130.blogspot.ca/ Fascinating! And, of course, with discrete transistors, it should not be that hard to keep the electronics running. The mechanicals look like a pretty major repair project, though! Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 22:32:11 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:32:11 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer IBM1130 In-Reply-To: <561F1BA6.9080005@pico-systems.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E99C4.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> <561F1BA6.9080005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561F1E3B.7050106@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 9:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> Carl has a IBM 1130 >> http://rescue1130.blogspot.ca/ > Fascinating! And, of course, with discrete transistors, it should not > be that hard to keep the electronics running. > The mechanicals look like a pretty major repair project, though! NO TRANSISTORS ... IBM's special logic for 1965. > Jon > > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 14 22:39:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:39:52 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> I could spare one - but probably only one. JRJ On 10/14/2015 4:17 PM, Jay West wrote: > I found a company selling new 8" 32-sector hard sector floppies. > > http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html Item # 47-0801 > > They want $150 per box of 10. That's a pretty hefty pricetag... but in the > absence of other suppliers I may just have to break down and buy a box from > them. > > J > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 14 22:39:50 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:39:50 -0600 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> References: <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> Message-ID: <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I could spare one - but probably only one. > > JRJ > Did they ever make punch to make your own? Ben. From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:44:00 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:44:00 +0200 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561EBE90.4030805@gmail.com> Hello, I'm almost sure that the DG dual 8" uses hard-sectored floppies with 32 sectors (33 holes). The internal logic will generate sync signals for 8 sectors starting from the 32 on the floppy. So industry standard hard-sectored floppies should be fine. You need to use formatted disks, DG supplied floppies already formatted, and the OS cannot format it. But: the drive itself has a format mode, so using a special formatter program (available at least on paper tape), you can format disks. Interesting thing (I think): as I have a Nova 3 with 6030 floppy, which I would restore when time will allow me to, and as I have no media to start the machine from, I searched a way to write new media from PC. Then I developed a tool to connect it to PC via serial, using the console port; this tool is somehow similar to VTserver for PDP11 realm, but more expandable. Basically, you can do memory transfers between Nova and PC (both directions), and execute almost *ANY* I/O instruction on the Nova, under the strict direction of the PC. On the PC, a tool developed in Python is used to bootstrap a special binary program (using Program Load feature on Nova), and then to execute special scripts, prepared for particular disk and/or tape peripherals, to dump a device to image file (compatible with SIMH), dump an image file to device, format a disk, and so on... As all these procedures are controlled remotely by the PC, on the Nova always sits the very same small binary code, thus supporting new peripherals should be very easy, once one understands how the whole stuff works. I already developed (and debugged using an emulated Nova3 on SIMH) all is needed to read/write/format disks on 6030. I think the very same code should work on the S/130, so if you want you could give a try. Interested? Andrea From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 14 16:22:41 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:22:41 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <561EBE90.4030805@gmail.com> References: <561EBE90.4030805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <561EC7A1.1000003@charter.net> On 10/14/2015 3:44 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Then I developed a tool to connect it to PC via serial, using the > console port; > this tool is somehow similar to VTserver for PDP11 realm, but more > expandable. > Basically, you can do memory transfers between Nova and PC (both > directions), and > execute almost *ANY* I/O instruction on the Nova, under the strict > direction of the PC. > On the PC, a tool developed in Python is used to bootstrap a special > binary program (using Program Load feature on Nova), > and then to execute special scripts, prepared for particular disk and/or > tape peripherals, to dump a device to image file (compatible with SIMH), > dump an image file to device, format a disk, and so on... > As all these procedures are controlled remotely by the PC, on the Nova > always sits the very same small binary code, > thus supporting new peripherals should be very easy, once one > understands how the whole stuff works. > > I already developed (and debugged using an emulated Nova3 on SIMH) all > is needed to read/write/format disks on 6030. > I think the very same code should work on the S/130, so if you want you > could give a try. > I'd love a copy of that for my archives, in case I ever need to do anything like that. JRJ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 14 17:14:41 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <561EBE90.4030805@gmail.com> References: <561EBE90.4030805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701d106cd$ba10a390$2e31eab0$@classiccmp.org> Shadoo wrote... --------- Then I developed a tool to connect it to PC via serial, using the console port; this tool is somehow similar to VTserver for PDP11 realm, but more expandable. Basically, you can do memory transfers between Nova and PC (both directions), and execute almost *ANY* I/O instruction on the Nova, under the strict direction of the PC. On the PC, a tool developed in Python is used to bootstrap a special binary program (using Program Load feature on Nova), and then to execute special scripts, prepared for particular disk and/or tape peripherals, to dump a device to image file (compatible with SIMH), dump an image file to device, format a disk, and so on... As all these procedures are controlled remotely by the PC, on the Nova always sits the very same small binary code, thus supporting new peripherals should be very easy, once one understands how the whole stuff works. I already developed (and debugged using an emulated Nova3 on SIMH) all is needed to read/write/format disks on 6030. I think the very same code should work on the S/130, so if you want you could give a try. Interested? ----- YES. Send me details off-list. Also, you wouldn't happen to have a bootable diskette for the 6030 you could send me would you? I'd just like one that is bootable (don't care what it boots) for testing purposes! J From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Oct 14 19:38:23 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:38:23 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:06:25AM -0600, Joe wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 09:56:36AM -0600, Joe wrote: > Thanks for the response. I guess not to many people have messed around with > Multos8 or ETOS. > You using my copy or do you have your own? Using emulator or real machine? > I'm trying to add an OS/8 disk pack so I can mess around with the > timesharing on two terminals. > Using SIMH since I only have one RK05 on the machine right now. [djg at laptop BIN]$ ./pdp8 PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: d4720d35 sim> att rk0 etosv5b-demo.rk05 sim> att rk1 diagpack2.rk05 sim> set tsc enabled sim> bo rk0 .R ETOS ETOS V5B OPTION?T ?LOGIN PLEASE !LOGIN ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M. ON TUE 01-JAN-75 ACCOUNT? 0,4 PASSWORD? JOB 3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE 0 WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE .^VS !ASSIGN DK1 !CONT .^VS !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0 !CONT .DIR CHN5: 01-JAN-75 ABSLDR.SV 6 04-JAN-73 CCL .SV 31 04-JAN-73 DIRECT.SV 7 04-JAN-73 PIP .SV 11 04-JAN-73 FOTP .SV 8 04-JAN-73 ... From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 02:02:06 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:02:06 -0700 Subject: ULTRIX-11 3.1 manuals / help? Message-ID: <561F4F6E.7010808@gmail.com> Hey all -- Anyone have a copy of the ULTRIX-11 3.0 or 3.1 manuals lying around? I've got the 11/44 up and running with an SMD disk and a SCSI 9-track tape drive and I have ULTRIX-11 3.1 installed. (Yay!) But there are issues (Boo.) Unfortunately, the "setup" tool (and *what* a tool it is!) doesn't seem to be able to access the tape drive to install optional software. (I know it's working -- the files are there in /dev, mt talks to it fine and I can dd files off of it no problem). Of course, in a very un-UNIXy move on DEC's part, "setup" is an executable, not a shell script so I can't see what the heck it's trying to do. And in a *very* UNIXy move, "setup" provides no actionable diagnostics whatsoever. It immediately fails (having made no attempt to access the drive as far as I can tell) and prints "Open of distribution device FAILED: Try again ?" I'd like to be able to restore the rest of the optional software and whatnot; the files on the tape appear to be tar archives so I can just do it manually (and tediously) and I imagine that that's what the setup tool does *anyway*, but I'd like to at least *try* to do it the official way. Anyone have any experience here? Also, having an actual manual would be useful, ULTRIX-11 3.X seems to be considerably different than 2.0 (at least in that it has this wonderful new "setup" program I'm having so much fun with), which is all I've been able to find. Thanks as always, Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 15 02:02:42 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:02:42 +0200 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EC485.6080704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EC485.6080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20151015070242.GA2380@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 03:09:25PM -0600, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 2:57 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > >On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >>On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote: > >>> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >>>> OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely > >>>> Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three > >>>> classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but > >>>> it should say what type of system we major in *snip* > >>> > >>> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home > >>> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use > >>> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben. > >> > >>You forgot "midicomputer". Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh. > > > > Shouldn't it be microcomputer, minicomputer, midicomputer and > >maxicomputer? (think skirts) > > > > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > >Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > > > > > Where do sign up for the Vintage Mini-skirt list ... I think it's called pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/jennschiffer/women-computers/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 06:57:24 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:57:24 +0200 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 14 October 2015 at 17:15, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Wow! What a fabulous story/writeup! Highly recommend to everyone. Oh good -- glad someone else enjoyed it. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 07:27:07 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:27:07 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> You want sentimental? I have a VT100 that I know I sold to a customer in 1975 whilst at DEC and that came back a couple of years ago in a clearout pile from I know not where. I still had my old day book I in which kept the serial numbers and there it was!! Needless to say surprise was not the one half of it! Forty years is a good age for any terminal. Its all cleaned up and looks and works as well as the day it came off the line at Westfield. DEC had many plants like Westfield in Massachusetts. Most companies would have an interplant bus service. DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam. I heard the following story at a sales meeting.: The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia. Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo". Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires. You missed going under the bridge on the other side Rod Smallwood On 15/10/2015 04:16, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/14/2015 12:34 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Sorry old chap just an example. I'm a old DEC guy. My biggest system >> is a VAX >> >> I think the 360 was back in the days when they rented every thing so >> not much was left behind >> Mind you I would not turn down a racks worth of AS400 >> > In the EARLY days of the 360, that was true, but in later days many > people owned their machines. Washington University rented their > 360/50, but then bought a used 360/65, and then added two used > 370/145s. Despite the number of 360s made, there are REALLY few left, > and I'm not sure anybody has any that run. (Of course, with the SLT > modules, spares would be a REAL problem.) > > Yup, for sentimental reasons, I still have my MicroVAX-II here. > > Jon -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 09:07:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:07:42 +0100 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> Yes execellent. Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk. An order for 30 systems from Midland Bank for an unbuilt untested computer? Rod Smallwood I have seen reference to the mainframe market actually growing again. Is who is left in te game apart from IBM? On 15/10/2015 12:57, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 October 2015 at 17:15, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Wow! What a fabulous story/writeup! Highly recommend to everyone. > > Oh good -- glad someone else enjoyed it. :-) > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 15 10:00:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <20151015070242.GA2380@Update.UU.SE> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EC485.6080704@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015070242.GA2380@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <2667CC25-96A7-4B4E-923F-E922769C15CC@comcast.net> > On Oct 15, 2015, at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 03:09:25PM -0600, ben wrote: >> ... >> Where do sign up for the Vintage Mini-skirt list ... > > I think it's called pinterest: > > https://www.pinterest.com/jennschiffer/women-computers/ Unfortunately that's one of those websites that doesn't want to show you anything unless you sign up, and I don't sign up with outfits like that. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 15 10:02:25 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:02:25 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > ... > DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam. > I heard the following story at a sales meeting.: > > The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia. > Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo". > Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires. > You missed going under the bridge on the other side Bummer, I did not know that or I would have asked that question, back in the days when I used that service regularly. paul From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 15 10:17:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:17:26 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to open the sleeve to punch one. JRJ On 10/14/2015 10:39 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I could spare one - but probably only one. >> >> JRJ >> > Did they ever make punch to make your own? > Ben. > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 15 10:16:57 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:16:57 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer IBM1130 In-Reply-To: <561F1E3B.7050106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E99C4.2060006@jetnet.ab.ca> <561F1BA6.9080005@pico-systems.com> <561F1E3B.7050106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561FC369.3090002@pico-systems.com> On 10/14/2015 10:32 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 9:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> Carl has a IBM 1130 >>> http://rescue1130.blogspot.ca/ >> Fascinating! And, of course, with discrete transistors, >> it should not >> be that hard to keep the electronics running. >> The mechanicals look like a pretty major repair project, >> though! > > NO TRANSISTORS ... IBM's special logic for 1965. > Yeah, I guess I'm getting it confused with the 1620. The 1130 and 1800 are supposed to be mostly the same, and the 1800 is definitely SLT. Well, that may be a real challenge, then. SLT is simple logic, but the art of chip passivation was not totally figured out back then, and so the chips degraded from moisture and oxygen exposure. Do you have any idea what shape the CPU is in? Have you powered it on? Jon From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 10:20:04 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:20:04 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> ... >> DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam. >> I heard the following story at a sales meeting.: >> >> The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia. >> Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo". >> Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires. >> You missed going under the bridge on the other side They would even fly a team of technicians to a mountaintop to install a microwave receiver and a single terminal on it! -- Eric Christopherson From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 15 11:20:06 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:20:06 -0500 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 03:07:42PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk. minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time frame. More likely "backplane". mcl From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 11:21:15 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:21:15 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561FD27B.1000804@btinternet.com> Did you work for DEC if so where/ On 15/10/2015 16:02, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> ... >> DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam. >> I heard the following story at a sales meeting.: >> >> The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia. >> Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo". >> Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires. >> You missed going under the bridge on the other side > Bummer, I did not know that or I would have asked that question, back in the days when I used that service regularly. > > paul > > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 11:24:10 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:24:10 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E6F4F.6070902@pico-systems.com> <561E923E.4070009@btinternet.com> <561F1A82.3040303@pico-systems.com> <561F9B9B.9030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <561FD32A.1030605@btinternet.com> So the Eagles could phone home I guess On 15/10/2015 16:20, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam. >>> I heard the following story at a sales meeting.: >>> >>> The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia. >>> Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo". >>> Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires. >>> You missed going under the bridge on the other side > They would even fly a team of technicians to a mountaintop to install > a microwave receiver and a single terminal on it! > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 11:28:05 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:28:05 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Jason T wrote: > A man in a black suit and skinny tie came by and asked that we not > forget the Midrange (System/3, System/3x, AS/400...) Carl the Technician dropped by. It's all hooked up. http://www.marrick.com/IT_Lab.html -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 11:49:01 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote: > you can lose your lovers with a Cray multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a micro can lose your marriage. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 11:54:35 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:54:35 +0200 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Henk wrote... >Great series of pictures Jay! >>Thanks! Most of those pics are "so I don't forget where wires go", but >>some of them are presentable :) I am used to make notes and draw sketchy pictures to remember how cables were connected. But then, I try to re-install all cabling within a week. My memory is not yet completely faded in a week, and the drawings do the rest :-) When I started collecting back in 1996 or so, I did not have a camera, so drawing was the only option. I still have drawings of the PSU and cable harness for the 11/35 from back then. >>After more than a year on a desk, I mounted the 6125 tape drive in the >>top of the rack with its power supply on the right side next to it. >I went to mount my 6125 today, but alas I may have to get creative. >My 6125 was in a "desktop" stand, and when I remove the power supply >and also look at the DG Installation docs - it appears that they used >a different sheet metal backing to mount the 6125 in a rack (on the side, >as you say) rather than on the desktop unit. I was sooo hoping to just >remove and mount. Well, either they used different metal or my vertical >posts are spaced different than expected. I don't think it's the latter, >because all the measurements matched with the installation guide for the >cpu and the 6030 disk unit. >Hummmm.. looking at pictures... it's the former. The sheet metal the PS >is mounted on is definitely shorter (left to right) on mine than what is >pictured. I guess I now have a use for the metal brake that I just bought >yesterday that is still in my car ;) LOL. I also drive for weeks with stuff in the back of the car. Not because I forgot it ... just waiting for a tactical moment to get it from the car into the house ;-) I can only tell about the 6125 that I have. Perhaps there are other methods, but the drawings and doc that I have (from Bruce, tnx!) match my config. On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge has a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw. The screw (Allen type) is at the front side, you have to remove the pin of the hinge (screw). After you mount the two hinges on the right side vertical post, you can mount the 6125 tape drive. Yup, the entire tape drive hangs on those two hinges. The form the pivot to swing the tape drive in and out of the rack. That's why the horizontal circuit board has that rounded shape! On the tape deck, at the left side is a hole for a screw to lock the tape drive in the rack. The screw simply fits a hole in the left side vertical post. The power supply is mounted at the right side (seen from the front) in the rack, using a metal plate from front to rear vertical post. The drawings indeed show two versions. The difference is the length of the metal plate. The distance between components on the horizontal circuit board of the tape drive and the bottom of the PSU cage is just ~0.5". Long story. If you like, I can take a set of pictures on Saturday. >>Indeed! I feel like being spoiled by DEC with connectors for everything. >Anything I would say to that would probably start a flame-war between >DEC and DG enthusiasts, so I'll just leave that one alone ;) Ahh yeah, but that was not my intention. They are different companies, so they have different ways of doing things, although quite similar. The one does not have to be better than the other, but my (first) impression is that DEC stuff is a little easier. But then, I am a "newbie" in DG land. >>I have the controller board for the 6125, but I do not have the cable >>from the backplane to the paddle board. I *think* I do have the cable >>from the paddle board to the pin header on the 6125 board (the >>horizontally mounted one). >As Bruce pointed out to me, there are actually only a few different >backplane wirings. Since it hasn't been rackmounted yet, I haven't gone >searching all the DG racks to see if I have any of the internal or >external or device cables for the 6125. We'll see. I suspect I will >have to make all my own cables; all my DG gear came from two collectors >in separate acquisitions - with one exception. This 6125 I bought off a >shelf at the local electronics haunt years ago, and it had no cables. As far as I know, there is one pin header on the horizontal circuit board for connection to the controller and one cable on the vertical board that goes to the PSU. The other side of the PSU (rear in the rack) has the mains power cable (cannot be detached). Yes Bruce is a most-helpful guy ++. I hope to be able to return a favor. I am told that the disk in the NOVA 3 has a COBOL environment (compiler), and the NOVA 4/C that I picked up today has a manual of BUSINESS BASIC. The application on the NOVA 4 is an accounting system written in BASIC. The complete listing is also in the doc, so expect the interpreter to find as well on the disk. I still have to do an inventory of what the system contains, but from memory I saw it is a NOVA 4/C (or was it "S"?). In the bottom is a fixed disk drive. It does not have a top for a removable cartridge, it is a hard disk only. Capacity 12.5 MB according to the doc. On top of the hard disk drive is mounted one 8" floppy drive. It IS bolted onto the top of the hard disk. The interface cable of the hard disk and the cable from the floppy disk both go together to one single typical DG edge connector. The doc says that the floppy drive is 1.2 MB. Below the slit for the floppy is a large small rectangular push button with an LED in it. I have seen similar floppy drives, but never on DG. But it is "original" DG, because I have the mating blue front cover with openings for this floppy drive. The hard disk drive/floppy drive combo can be lifted by one person, but I would not walk a 100 meter with it. It is heavy, I estimate between 40 and 50 kilo. Not good for your back, but when you're on your own (unloading the van) ... >>My 6125 did power up correctly, but when I mount a tape and press BOT, >>it spools some tape and then stops. When I press BOT again, it spools >>again some tape. Did that a few times ... had to manually rewind the >>tape as REWIND did not work. Could be a missing BOT on the tape, or >>issues ... >If there's no BOT tape on the tape, yeah. If there is, I'd look first at >testing the BOT/EOT sensor. I think there's a procedure for that in the >manual. ISTR that when it hits the BOT tape, it actually backs up a >little so it can get a "running jump". Would love to see that "backing up" :-) Open reel tape drives still have the great looks. No wonder you see them in the back spinning in old SciFi movies (remember Time Tunnel?) >>Keep posting! I am a "newbie" on DG stuff with a long road ahead. >Ditto here, new to DG gear as well. Bruce has been a great help, but >pouring over docs for hours has been invaluable. How true! I have nobody in vicinity to talk to about DG stuff. Just like you, I read docs to know how to mount and connect the 6125. I'm now reading bits about the NOVA 3 itself, and hope to do some tests on Saturday. A first check gave me the impression that several bulbs on the console are burnt out. I hope the system is fine, but not sure about that :-/ greetz, - Henk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 11:57:06 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:57:06 +0100 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00c701d1076a$861647f0$9242d7d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: 15 October 2015 00:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype > > Brad, > > A few montns ago, with a fair bit of help of the folks on this list, I did up an > Altair 8800 rebuild. And apparently you & I both saw the same videos, as I got > all hot and bothered about getting an ASR33 and using it to load software - > BASIC, for starters - into the Altair. And again, on members' > suggestion, I joined the Greenkeys list. > > Too bad, but I was totally +shocked+ at the 'value' placed on ASR33 these > days!! Thousand dollars and more, not all all unusual.. and my resources just > can't justify that level of expenditure for what is generally a 'cheap' DIY > hobby of sorts. Meanwhile, a Greenkeys member in St. Louis, MO popped > up with a very nice M15 (ex-Bell) that was Free to Good Home. I have (or at > least had, ha!) a good friend in St. Louis, and he was able to take care of the > pickup for me - and several months later, i arranged to have it delivered to > my house by a relative. > > Now the M15 isn't a 33ASR, and lacks the paper tape punch & reader (though > devices do exist). But what it is, is a truly fantastic piece of electro-mechanical > engineering that borders on the "tight metal" genre of some earlier business > machines, such as the Felt & Tarrant Comptometer. If you have general > mechanical experience, I'd say the M15 is roughly on a par with a 2-spd or > even 3-spd automatic transmission, in terms of mechanical complexity (the > the tranny will have a higher parts count.. I think!). > > So while they can be worked with, and documentation is plentiful, they are a > bit intimidating the first time you see one in action - or inaction, as it may be - > and they do NOT respond kindly to false moves or other ham-fistery. But > they are well worth learning, and don't yet seem to have joined their later > progeny in the financial stratosphere. > > -Bill > I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot teletypes were used with early computers. Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809 based system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system. They were also widely used in the UK on early computers in the UK. The Manchester MK1, Ferranti Pegasus, Ferranti Mercury, Cambridge ENIAC all used 5-level Creed teleprinters as output devices. As I am sure I have said before, Mercury and Pegasus actually output 5-level tape on a high speed punch which was then feed into a storage bin under the counter, and then read on a slower reader connected to the Teleprinter. So physical buffering... Dave G4UGM From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 12:18:46 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> Message-ID: >> Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk. On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote: > minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time frame. > More likely "backplane". Wasn't the B5900 from 1980? "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it. Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane". "The earliest known reference to motherboard, the main circuit board of a personal computer, comes from a 1971 article in the British journal Electrical and Electronics Abstracts, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The article refers to one daughterboard mounted vertically on a computer size motherboard." from: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/01/the-mother-of-all-boards.html Google is not my friend today. I'm encountering multiple variants of "in the 1980s and 1990s, it became popular to put peripheral controllers on the board", red and blue text overlayed on a full color picture, "IBM PC was the first motherboard" (especially amusing since it was similar form factor and basic layout as Apple][) S100 backplane was often called a "motherboard". By 1978, the Apple ][ main board was called a "motherboard" in the industry, although IIRC, Apple preferred to call it a "logic board". IBM explicitly refused to call it a "motherboard" on the 5150. According to an unreliable source (my late uncle working there at the time), that was due to horrified shock at TV coverage of Black Panther speeches at Merritt College in Oakland in the late 1960s (when I had attended) and on, that had very extensive use of the word "MOTHERFUCKER", shortened to "MOTHER__" on TV. "UP AGAINST THE WALL MOTHER__!" To avoid association, IBM refused to call it a "motherboard". In the late 1960s, Merritt College had a 1401 and a 1620. Some say that Peralta Community College District's decision to move Merritt College up into the suburban hills in 1972? was in order to pull the campus out from under the Panthers. In early 1980s, Merritt College had a DEC with a rarely working third party drive, and then switched to 5150s in 1983. I taught up on the hill for 20 years, starting in 1983 (total of more than 30 years teaching in the PCCD system) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 12:36:31 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:36:31 +0100 Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <561FE41F.1010700@btinternet.com> I re-read the artical and backplane is what he called it. At least he called the wirewrap version that. I went back to my engineer days and tried to think what I would have called it. Bus board or main interconnect is all I can think of. Rod On 15/10/2015 18:18, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a >>> risk. > On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote: >> minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time >> frame. >> More likely "backplane". > > Wasn't the B5900 from 1980? > "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it. > Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane". > > "The earliest known reference to motherboard, the main circuit board > of a personal computer, comes from a 1971 article in the British > journal Electrical and Electronics Abstracts, according to the Oxford > English Dictionary. The article refers to one daughterboard mounted > vertically on a computer size motherboard." > from: > http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/01/the-mother-of-all-boards.html > > > Google is not my friend today. I'm encountering multiple variants of > "in the 1980s and 1990s, it became popular to put peripheral > controllers on the board", red and blue text overlayed on a full color > picture, "IBM PC was the first motherboard" (especially amusing since > it was similar form factor and basic layout as Apple][) > > S100 backplane was often called a "motherboard". > By 1978, the Apple ][ main board was called a "motherboard" in the > industry, although IIRC, Apple preferred to call it a "logic board". > > IBM explicitly refused to call it a "motherboard" on the 5150. > According to an unreliable source (my late uncle working there at the > time), that was due to horrified shock at TV coverage of Black Panther > speeches at Merritt College in Oakland in the late 1960s (when I had > attended) and on, that had very extensive use of the word > "MOTHERFUCKER", shortened to "MOTHER__" on TV. "UP AGAINST THE WALL > MOTHER__!" To avoid association, > IBM refused to call it a "motherboard". > > In the late 1960s, Merritt College had a 1401 and a 1620. > Some say that Peralta Community College District's decision to move > Merritt College up into the suburban hills in 1972? was in order to > pull the campus out from under the Panthers. In early 1980s, Merritt > College had a DEC with a rarely working third party drive, and then > switched to 5150s in 1983. I taught up on the hill for 20 years, > starting in 1983 (total of more than 30 years teaching in the PCCD > system) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Oct 15 12:37:31 2015 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:37:31 +0000 Subject: 8-sector decpacks? Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Does anyone have any idea what drive/system an 8-sector decpack would have been used with? We have a few of them on our shelves at the LCM and I can't find any reference that mentions 8-sector packs. (Just the usual 12 and 16-sector ones.) They're clearly labeled "decpack 1100 BPI - 8" and the sector ring marks out eight sectors. These are RK05 (IBM 2315) style packs. Thanks, Josh Sr. Vintage Software Engineer Living Computer Museum www.livingcomputermuseum.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 15 12:38:41 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:38:41 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d10770$572243d0$0566cb70$@classiccmp.org> Henk wrote... ------ On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge has a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw. ------ Yep, I got the installation instructions in the manual, which are wonderfully detailed WRT rackmounting. You may not have noticed this though.... If you are mounting the 6125 anywhere except the very top of the rack - no problem. However, if you are mounting it right at the very top you will want to know something that the manual isn't clear on. Those pins you mention above - they look like they are threaded and you just screw them into the hinge from the top. But if you look very closely, you'll see that the pins can be screwed into the hinges *from the bottom* until they stick out of the top the right way. You won't get it mounted in the very top of a rack unless you do it that way (depending on your rack of course). ------ As far as I know, there is one pin header on the horizontal circuit board for connection to the controller and one cable on the vertical board that goes to the PSU. The other side of the PSU (rear in the rack) has the mains power cable (cannot be detached). ------ Yep, they are different then. The desktop power supply itself is identical but the metalwork is not. In addition, the power cord is removable on the desktop version. I will have to make "non-standard adjustments" for that :| ------ It is heavy, I estimate between 40 and 50 kilo. Not good for your back, but when you're on your own (unloading the van) ... ------ Tell me about it. After I mounted the 6125 I noticed the blue cover door wouldn't open all the way due to clearance on the left front of the rack. Further scrutiny revealed that $previous_owner mounted the two front vertical rails with a slant. The front vertical rails are flush with the front of the rack at the bottom, but at the top they are back about 1/2 inch. So today I am unracking everything in the rack, adjusting the two front vertical rails, and then re-racking everything. What a major pain. My fault though - I should have noticed this before I got all the way to the top in putting stuff in the rack. J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 15 12:38:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:38:00 +0000 Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com>, Message-ID: > "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it. > Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane". I generally use the term 'motherboard' for the sort of thing you find in an IBM5150 or Apple ][ -- that is a board with a lot of electronics on it and the edge connectors for daughterboards (I/O cards, etc) whereas I use the term 'backplane' for what I have in a PDP11 or PERQ, etc, just connectors wired together (maybe with some simple logic) and almost everything on plug-in boards. Incidentally, the HP150 has the procrssor and video boards, along with 2 optional I/O boards going in from the rear of the case and plugging into a PCB of connectors (and IIRC a simple printer interface). Due to its position HP call it the 'frontplane'. I have never seen that term used anywhere else (I assume it's also applicable to the HP120 but I have never seen any technical info for that machine). -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 12:57:05 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:57:05 -0700 Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:38 AM, tony duell wrote: > > "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it. > > Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane". > > I generally use the term 'motherboard' for the sort of thing you find in an > IBM5150 or Apple ][ -- that is a board with a lot of electronics on it and > the > edge connectors for daughterboards (I/O cards, etc) whereas I use the term > 'backplane' for what I have in a PDP11 or PERQ, etc, just connectors wired > together > (maybe with some simple logic) and almost everything on plug-in boards. > > Incidentally, the HP150 has the procrssor and video boards, along with 2 > optional > I/O boards going in from the rear of the case and plugging into a PCB of > connectors > (and IIRC a simple printer interface). Due to its position HP call it the > 'frontplane'. I have > never seen that term used anywhere else (I assume it's also applicable to > the HP120 > but I have never seen any technical info for that machine). > The documentation for the AMT DAP 600 I have refers to a "midplane," so named because it's in the center of the machine, with boards plugged into both sides... - Josh > > -tony > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 15 12:58:10 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:58:10 -0400 Subject: 8-sector decpacks? In-Reply-To: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> > On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea what drive/system an 8-sector decpack would have been used with? We have a few of them on our shelves at the LCM and I can't find any reference that mentions 8-sector packs. (Just the usual 12 and 16-sector ones.) > > They're clearly labeled "decpack 1100 BPI - 8" and the sector ring marks out eight sectors. These are RK05 (IBM 2315) style packs. Half density? I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density. RK02? Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. RP03? The peripherals handbook says that the RK05 recording density is about 2000 bpi, so 8 sectors would be 256 12-bit words at half density, i.e., half the sector slots of the regular PDP8 pack. paul From ethan at 757.org Thu Oct 15 12:59:08 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know of Sun Voyager bags for sale? Message-ID: Anyone know of any of the padded cases for Sun Voyagers that would be for sale? (Sun Microsystems portable sparcstation) -- Ethan O'Toole From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 13:01:19 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:01:19 +0200 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: <000001d10770$572243d0$0566cb70$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d10770$572243d0$0566cb70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jay wrote... ------ >>Henk wrote... >>------ >>On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge >>has >>a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw. >------ >Yep, I got the installation instructions in the manual, which are >wonderfully detailed WRT rackmounting. You may not have noticed this >though.... If you are mounting the 6125 anywhere except the very top of the >rack - no problem. However, if you are mounting it right at the very top >you >will want to know something that the manual isn't clear on. Those pins you >mention above - they look like they are threaded and you just screw them >into the hinge from the top. But if you look very closely, you'll see that >the pins can be screwed into the hinges *from the bottom* until they stick >out of the top the right way. You won't get it mounted in the very top of a >rack unless you do it that way (depending on your rack of course). Yup, I mounted the 6125 in the top of the rack. The thought indeed did not occur that you can screw the pin in the metal hinge from the *bottom* side. I removed the top plastic part with the Data General text (top cover) to get the clearance space needed to hang the drive on the pins. If you have a helping hand you can leave the top cover installed. Make sure that the other guy is holding the drive while *you* screw the pins in :-) Either way, you have to hang the tape drive on th pins while it is at 90 degrees with the front of the rack (fully "opened" position). >>------ >>It is heavy, I estimate between 40 and 50 kilo. Not good for your back, >>but when you're on your own (unloading the van) ... >>------ >Tell me about it. After I mounted the 6125 I noticed the blue cover door >wouldn't open all the way due to clearance on the left front of the rack. >Further scrutiny revealed that $previous_owner mounted the two front >vertical rails with a slant. The front vertical rails are flush with the >front of the rack at the bottom, but at the top they are back about 1/2 >inch. So today I am unracking everything in the rack, adjusting the two >front vertical rails, and then re-racking everything. What a major pain. >My fault though - I should have noticed this before I got all the way to >the top in putting stuff in the rack. Ughh, that's no fun! If my rack was like that, I would not have noticed that either. You simply don't expect that, especially because this is not possible with DEC (or HP) racks. They are either riveted or welded. Enjoy the disassembly/assembly, a great moment for many pictures :-) - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 15 12:59:48 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:59:48 +0000 Subject: 8-sector decpacks? In-Reply-To: <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Half density? I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density. RK02? Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. > RP03? No, you're right. The RK02 is the low-density drive (actually a Diablo model 30), the RK03 being the high density model. The RK05 has the same bit density (heck the same format) as the RK03. There was an RK01 I beleive. I forget who made that (it wasn't DEC, if you see what I mean), but I could believe thst was low density too. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 15 13:03:57 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:03:57 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> > .R ETOS > ETOS V5B > OPTION?T > > ?LOGIN PLEASE > !LOGIN > ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M. ON TUE 01-JAN-75 > ACCOUNT? 0,4 > PASSWORD? > JOB 3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE 0 > > WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM > TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE > > .^VS > !ASSIGN DK1 > !CONT > > .^VS > !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0 > !CONT > > .DIR CHN5: > > 01-JAN-75 > > ABSLDR.SV 6 04-JAN-73 > CCL .SV 31 04-JAN-73 > DIRECT.SV 7 04-JAN-73 > PIP .SV 11 04-JAN-73 > FOTP .SV 8 04-JAN-73 > ... > .DIR HELP ADVNT !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! From JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Oct 15 13:27:09 2015 From: JoshD at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:27:09 +0000 Subject: 8-sector decpacks? In-Reply-To: References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629914B83@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:00 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: 8-sector decpacks? > > > Half density? I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density. RK02? Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. > RP03? > > No, you're right. The RK02 is the low-density drive (actually a Diablo model 30), the RK03 being the high density model. The RK05 has the same > bit density (heck the same format) as the RK03. > > > There was an RK01 I beleive. I forget who made that (it wasn't DEC, if you see what I mean), but I could believe thst was low density too. > > -tony That seems probable; the major reference I found was this: http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/dec.disks Which suggests that the RK02 is 12 or 16-sector; but it could be in error. (I've verified via DEC peripheral handbooks that, at least on the -11, the RK02 used 12-sector packs. I haven't yet found a handbook for the 8/I that covers the RK02 -- the one I have on my desk here is from 1972 and only talks about the RK01, so I guess it's a bit too early. Given the short life of the RK02, it may be tough to find the right one :). (The RK01 is 16-sector on the 8/I, FWIW.) - Josh From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 15 13:30:55 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:30:55 -0500 Subject: DG S/130 progress In-Reply-To: References: <000501d10603$b04697e0$10d3c7a0$@classiccmp.org> <000601d106cc$c792d980$56b88c80$@classiccmp.org> <000001d10770$572243d0$0566cb70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000801d10777$a1b76b30$e5264190$@classiccmp.org> Henk wrote... ----- Yup, I mounted the 6125 in the top of the rack. The thought indeed did not occur that you can screw the pin in the metal hinge from the *bottom* side. I removed the top plastic part with the Data General text (top cover) to get the clearance space needed to hang the drive on the pins. If you have a helping hand you can leave the top cover installed. Make sure that the other guy is holding the drive while *you* screw the pins in :-) Either way, you have to hang the tape drive on th pins while it is at 90 degrees with the front of the rack (fully "opened" position). ----- As I said, it depends on the rack. I have two styles of DG rack. On one of them, you can mount the tape unit in the very top position by putting the top hinge pin in from the top. But on the other style of rack, it is not possible at all unless you put the pin into the hinge from the bottom. The two racks have slightly different metalwork at the top. I really wanted my 6125 at the very top and found it couldn't be done - then I happened to notice that in the bottom of the pins there is a hex indentation for an allen wrench so you CAN screw them in from the bottom :) ----- Ughh, that's no fun! If my rack was like that, I would not have noticed that either. You simply don't expect that, especially because this is not possible with DEC (or HP) racks. They are either riveted or welded. ----- It was a silly mistake, I know better, and just didn't pay attention. I was in too much of a rush to get a rack that was top to bottom that gorgeous blue color ;) I now have the two front vertical posts flush with the front all the way up the rack. Now I have to re-adjust all the upper rails/slides to match, and then the re-racking begins. None of it is THAT much trouble really, except the 6125 is kind of a bit** to mount ;) Maybe it's just cause I'm so short lol ----- Enjoy the disassembly/assembly, a great moment for many pictures :-) ----- Yeah, it would be... but I'm in a rush to get a rack that is top to bottom that gorgeous blue color.... *grin* J From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 15 13:36:50 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:36:50 -0400 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:17:26 -0500.) <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to > open the sleeve to punch one. A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't require opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". De From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 15 13:44:40 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:44:40 -0500 Subject: nut bars? ;) Message-ID: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't find this. Is there a modern source of nut bars that one could order with specific thread size and # of holes (NEMA pattern)? Yeah, I know I'm being OCD and can just use individual nuts. But after you keep losing a handful of standard nuts in the bottom of the rack, I see why they used nut bars. In some cases, nut bars are very preferable to cage/clipon nuts. J From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 15 13:56:16 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:56:16 -0400 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <561FF6D0.6040506@sbcglobal.net> On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote: > ... In > some cases, nut bars are very preferable... > I think we have plenty of those around here.... :D -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 15 14:02:26 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:02:26 -0700 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) In-Reply-To: <07C428A0-CDE3-49CB-BECE-CC1608F5AD0C@bitscience.ca> References: <07C428A0-CDE3-49CB-BECE-CC1608F5AD0C@bitscience.ca> Message-ID: <74D4164D-049A-41F4-82D1-4DC0475B73CF@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-14, at 3:40 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Does anyone have a electronic copy of the original Decmate Owner?s Guide (AA-K330C-TA) that they could share? > > Alternatively, can anyone describe what can be accomplished (if anything) from the initial ?Setup? prompt on a VT278 *without* any disks attached? > > The situation is that Brent and I are trying to resurrect a Decmate ? we?ve plugged in a VT100 keyboard (Thanks, Bill!): > > - it boots to the ?Setup? prompt with the flashing cursor. > - the ?Power? light on the rear of the unit is steady and the ?CPU OK? light is blinking. > - the keyboard lights indicate ?online" > - pressing ?2? or ?PF3? cause ?Setup? to disappear. ?3? seems to cause it to perform some self-test like procedure. > - most keys cause keyclicks, but ?space?, ?M?, and ?/' don?t. With an oscilloscope, we can see data from the keyboard being sent for the ?silent? keys, however. > > Without disks, what else should we able to do? > > Eventually, we?d like to find or construct some solution for mass storage, but we?re still at the point of checking out the VT278 itself. Whoops, my mistake, and apology: that should have been Thanks Jack (Rubin). Found some more info about SETUP mode in the Decmate System Architecture manual. Between the idiosyncrasies, I'm beginning to wonder if there's something funny going on in the keyboard scanning sequence or keyboard management from the 278, we'll have to investigate the keyboard communication in more detail. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 14:31:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:31:36 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 09:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote: >> you can lose your lovers with a Cray > > multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a > micro can lose your marriage. If you lose a lover in "Bubbles", I suspect that you're also looking at a lengthy prison term. --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 15 14:34:59 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:34:59 -0500 Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Wasn't the B5900 from 1980? Hmm. I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900". mcl From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 15 14:59:06 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:59:06 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <016401d106b1$88bcaee0$9a360ca0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016401d106b1$88bcaee0$9a360ca0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On 2015-Oct-14, at 11:52 AM, Brad wrote: > I appreciate the advice and I'll keep my eyes out. Vancouver hasn't really been a great place to find these kinds of things; I tend to be totally reliant on ebay, and as mentioned US shipping up to here has skyrocketed (not to mention our CDN dollar tanking). I guess mostly because Vancouver is relatively young and 40-50 years ago would not have been large enough to have a lot of this kind of thing around. I never see anything that vintage in our classifieds/craigs/buysell/etc. Vancouver region: Two years ago Rob and I got two 28s at the radio museum going as well as a 33. Getting the 28s functioning was in preparation for a movie shoot. The 33 was, well, it's a 33 and we're working on these things. Still have a 15 and a Lorenz (15-class knock off) to work on when I can get back to major projects. In 1976 when I was working with my dad's friend on building his IMSAI, he had a plastic-wrapped 33-ASR waiting in a corner for the computer to be ready. I suspect it was a refurbished unit, but when the plastic came off it looked as good as new. And yes, when the IMSAI was ready we proceeded to toggle in the bootstrap, load MS BASIC via the 33 paper tape reader, and type in a BASIC program. Vancouver was a smaller city back in the 70s but I think teletypes were as dense here as they were anywhere. Being somewhat remote but a major port city and center for transportation and shipping, communications was important - there may have been more teletypes here than typical. Currently, I know of two other 28s in the Vancouver region (not meaning to imply any of them are available though). The radio museum threw out a 35-ASR 15 years ago. There may have been another 1 or 2 that were discarded. Yup, hindsight is great. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 15 15:01:01 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <561FF6D0.6040506@sbcglobal.net> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <561FF6D0.6040506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote: >> ... In >> some cases, nut bars are very preferable... >> > > I think we have plenty of those around here.... *bars*, not *bags*! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 15:04:38 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> Message-ID: >> Wasn't the B5900 from 1980? On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote: > Hmm. I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900". Yeah, that would make a difference. Wikipedia (not necessarily reliable) lists the B5500 at 1964, and the B5900 in 1980. OED researchers found published use of "motherboard" in 1971, but no idea how long it had been used as a term before that written reference. So, B5500 could be before "motherboard" was a term. Although, I remember a mention of it in conversation in 1967. Much like the common usage of "bug" LONG before Grace Hopper used the common term in a log, "inventing the term". OTOH, renaming "Altair Bus" to "S100" happened over a few months. Some used "motherboard" to refer to a simple set of multiple connectors, such as S100, whereas some will only use it if it has significant circuitry on it, not just termination. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 15:06:37 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> Message-ID: IIRC, IBM liked to refer to them as planar boards... On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Wasn't the B5900 from 1980? > > Hmm. I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900". > > mcl > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 15 15:09:35 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:09:35 -0400 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <561FF6D0.6040506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <562007FF.3070407@sbcglobal.net> On 10/15/2015 04:01 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> ... In >>> some cases, nut bars are very preferable... >>> >> >> I think we have plenty of those around here.... > > *bars*, not *bags*! :) > No, it's "...*bars*, _and_ *bags*..." :P -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 15:15:22 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: <20151014151523.D032318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <561FB32E.6080100@btinternet.com> <20151015162006.GC27866@lonesome.com> <20151015193459.GC9415@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > IIRC, IBM liked to refer to them as planar boards... That's right. I explained one account of WHY IBM refused to call it a "motherboard". From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 15 15:16:23 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:16:23 -0400 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:44:40 -0500.) <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't > find this. It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap about this terminology. :) Try "threaded rail". De From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 15:31:20 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:31:20 -0500 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <00c701d1076a$861647f0$9242d7d0$@gmail.com> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c701d1076a$861647f0$9242d7d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151015203120.GB28547@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 05:57PM +0100), Dave Wade wrote: > > I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot teletypes were used with early computers. > Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809 based system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system. Altair 680 (M6800 based) had one version of the PROM that worked with 5-level BAUDOT teletypes and the more common version that worked with 7-level ASCII teletypes such as the M33. -- Chris Elmquist N?JCF From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 15:34:28 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:34:28 -0500 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20151015203428.GC28547@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 04:16PM -0400), Dennis Boone wrote: > > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't > > find this. > > It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap > about this terminology. :) http://www.naturevalley.com/nut-bars/ -- Chris Elmquist From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 15 15:36:55 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:36:55 -0500 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001d01d10789$3bba63c0$b32f2b40$@classiccmp.org> HAH! The DG documentation does call them "Nut Bars" :P "threaded rail" seems to be something different according to google, but it yields "threaded insert" which is close if not exact. Still googling... Thanks! J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: nut bars? ;) > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't > find this. It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap about this terminology. :) Try "threaded rail". De From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Oct 15 15:38:14 2015 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:38:14 -0500 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies Message-ID: I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I have an RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might be of interest to someone before I wipe them. They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they are AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE. I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the message. Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't have a VAX so I can't read them. Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks? thanks Charles From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 15 16:09:27 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:09:27 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> With out going into detail and whilst working in Germany in 1969 I pulled a few Saturday night operator shifts for cash in hand on a big Nixdorf system. Just to help out a friend who did not like being there on her own. The Computer room was air conditioned and filtered down to microns. Being Germany it was kept clinically clean and a bit on the cool side. It took us a while to find a nice warm air outlet round the back of a row of tape drives. A quick trip to the medical room to borrow some blankets and we were all set. Now we would not be cold wating for a job to run. Contrary to your remaks I did not lose a lover. Rod On 15/10/2015 20:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/15/2015 09:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote: >>> you can lose your lovers with a Cray >> >> multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a >> micro can lose your marriage. > > If you lose a lover in "Bubbles", I suspect that you're also looking > at a lengthy prison term. > > --Chuck > -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330 From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 15 16:19:24 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:19:24 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one would need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at 1/2 spacing. Sent from my iPad On Oct 15, 2015, at 13:36, Dennis Boone wrote: >> I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to >> open the sleeve to punch one. > > A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some > years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't require > opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". > > De From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 15 15:37:10 2015 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:37:10 +0100 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <561DC92F.8020200@jetnet.ab.ca> <00f901d106bf$d9e8ae00$9f57160a@user8459cef6fa> <561EC395.1050101@snarc.net> Message-ID: <010101d10792$9d5889a0$29a7a50a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:05 PM Subject: Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation > > > I also noticed that the outer circumference (outer most part of the logo) doesn't appear to be a true circle, but more polygonal instead! (look*really* carefully) Was is created using some 3d rendering software??? > > Good eye! Yes, we used a 3D CAD program, so that someday we could make > models of the logo. > Ahhh, now that is a neat idea :) Regards, Andrew Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk www.aliensrcooluk.com From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 15 16:53:38 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:53:38 -0500 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56202062.8070404@charter.net> I'd expect you could still read them sector by sector - an RX01 is standard single density format. Regardless, you can find software to image them here: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ In particular: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/software/dumprest.tar.gz (I had my own version of that sort of thing that used XMODEM protocol - I need to look at the above myself to see if I like it better). VAX PSI is software for packet switched networks (e.g. X.25). I don't have any use for that software myself. JRJ On 10/15/2015 3:38 PM, Charles wrote: > I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I have > an RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might be of > interest to someone before I wipe them. > They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they are > AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE. > > I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the > message. > Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't > have a VAX so I can't read them. > Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks? > > thanks > Charles > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 16:53:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:53:15 -0700 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Contrary to your remaks I did not lose a lover. A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10 (liquid nitrogen) would be equally inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one. I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix sometime in the early 70s. On the test floor, I explored e water-cooled system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic "shell". I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 17:00:34 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:00:34 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics. Yeah, I get excited about liquid cooled mainframes, too. -- Will From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 15 17:59:46 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:59:46 +0100 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56202FE2.3060103@ntlworld.com> On 15/10/15 21:38, Charles wrote: > I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I > have an RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might > be of interest to someone before I wipe them. > They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they > are AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE. > > I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the > message. > Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't > have a VAX so I can't read them. > Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks? > I'm in the UK so trading probably isn't worth it. I used to work in the group that produced those (well, wrote the software, someone else cut the media, I guess). I have a set of PSI floppies of roughly that era but mine are RX50s (I think: they're in the attic somewhere right now ...). I don't think I've ever seen PSI software on 8" floppies before. If you do manage to image them, I'd certainly be interested in a copy. -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Oct 15 17:46:31 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:46:31 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:18:45 +0100 (WET-DST)" <01PKX8TM6P500079Z5@beyondthepale.ie> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Back in April, I wrote: > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > One of my DECserver 90M PSUs got dropped and stopped working as a result, > > possibly because it got pulled by the cable. That sounds like the kind of > > damage that might be repairable. I tried to open the enclosure and I found a > > hole under one of the labels, expecting it to be a screw hole, but it isn't. > > I am guessing you just have to pry the halves apart, but without knowing > > where the clips are inside it is easy just to break the thing. > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how you open these PSUs? > > > > As far as I recall, there are no clips - it is glued all the way around. > > Mine (actaully a 90TL, with H7082-AB PSU) failed too. Using a lot of patience, > I pried it open without too much damage, fixed it (a capacitor in the startup > circuit IIRC) and glued it back together. The end result was only slightly > rough looking and would probably have been better with a more suitable glue. > The thing has a very Lego-like quality about it. > > It failed again some time later and I haven't had the enthusiasm to break it > open again since. > I finally worked up the enthusiasm. It was easy to open this time as the glue I used to put it back together last time was not so good. While I was measuring voltages on the input side, out of the corner of my eye I noticed the LEDs on the front of the terminal server lighting up briefly. I found that I could get them to light up consistently by pressing a meter probe on one of the legs of the chopper transformer and after deploying the magnifying glass, I found a tiny crack in the print leading to it. That was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. I hope it lasts a bit longer this time though. Now I find that the privileged password is not what I thought it is... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 18:59:42 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:59:42 -0500 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <20151015203120.GB28547@n0jcf.net> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c701d1076a$861647f0$9242d7d0$@gmail.com> <20151015203120.GB28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Brad, Sounds like another nice freebie M15 just popped up on the greenkeys list.. though it's stateside, and once again in St. Louis! Might not help you, other than to illustrate the fact that these things +do+ come up. And this is just how I came across my personal teleprinting treasure chest.. ;-) On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 05:57PM +0100), Dave Wade wrote: > > > > I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot > teletypes were used with early computers. > > Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809 > based system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system. > > Altair 680 (M6800 based) had one version of the PROM that worked with > 5-level BAUDOT teletypes and the more common version that worked with > 7-level ASCII teletypes such as the M33. > > -- > Chris Elmquist N?JCF > > From radiotest at juno.com Thu Oct 15 20:07:22 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:07:22 -0400 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <00c701d1076a$861647f0$9242d7d0$@gmail.com> <20151015203120.GB28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151015210200.03d389b8@juno.com> At 07:59 PM 10/15/2015, drlegendre . wrote: >Sounds like another nice freebie M15 just popped up on the greenkeys list.. >though it's stateside, and once again in St. Louis! There ought to be plenty of the 15-RO units kicking around in the States. Time was when every almost radio station in the country had one (or sometimes two in larger markets) for AP or UPI. I have an ex-UPI 15-RO that I would like to get rid of. I once thought of restoring it, but I have too many other more useful things awaiting restoration. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 15 20:25:43 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:25:43 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> So you've shipped these before? What sort of cost is typical around the US? My problem is just finding one at this point. Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the Baudot machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 12:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype You can ship these in a box if you detach the pedestal and put it on its side, making sure the main unit is well padded and there is a weight balance to the box, as you never know from what angle the box will sit/fall/land/be carried. I shrink wrap the main TTY to ensure it stays secure, then wrap in layers of bubble wrap and foam. I have shipped five or six that way. You can also use two boxes. It's very easy to re-attach the main unit from the pedestal, many have a reader motor in the pedestal, but you just unscrew it. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > >> How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. >> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here >> in Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. >> > > Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last > few years. > It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for > overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you > still need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. > Ben. > * I think books still send that way. > > > > -- Bill ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 15 20:27:27 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:27:27 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <02b001d107b1$d1ba0510$752e0f30$@yahoo.ca> I would imagine a teletype would be way over USPS' maximum weight limit anyway. Something happened with USPS 2 years ago or so where prices just went through the roof. Even on small stuff it was ridiculous, at least, to Canada. I've been reluctant to use them since. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 12:29 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote: > How heavy are these things? They look like solid steel in pictures. > That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in > Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive. Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last few years. It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse. Ben. * I think books still send that way. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 15 20:37:19 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:37:19 -0600 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <562054CF.1050306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2015 7:25 PM, Brad wrote: > So you've shipped these before? What sort of cost is typical around > the US? > > My problem is just finding one at this point. > > Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the > Baudot machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) > Yes, leave those for relay computers. Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 15 20:57:09 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 20:57:09 -0500 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <001d01d10789$3bba63c0$b32f2b40$@classiccmp.org> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <001d01d10789$3bba63c0$b32f2b40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56205975.4050902@pico-systems.com> On 10/15/2015 03:36 PM, Jay West wrote: > HAH! > > The DG documentation does call them "Nut Bars" :P > > "threaded rail" seems to be something different according to google, but it > yields "threaded insert" which is close if not exact. Still googling... > There were some systems, like Vector configurable card cages and VME systems that had extruded rails with nuts that could slide to where you wanted them. These had real nuts (either hex or square) slipped into the rails. Boards or connectors could be screwed into the nuts. Threaded rail sounds to me like the threads are permanently drilled and tapped to specific positions in the rail. Jon From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 15 21:07:47 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:07:47 -0500 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <56205975.4050902@pico-systems.com> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <001d01d10789$3bba63c0$b32f2b40$@classiccmp.org> <56205975.4050902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00a101d107b7$742caeb0$5c860c10$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 8:57 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: nut bars? ;) Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps? http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf They call them "bar nuts" :-) Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From useddec at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 21:08:50 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:08:50 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I loaned a list member several packs with ETOS on them. They need to be cleaned and inspected before they can be read. I know he is busy and going to be for a while. If anyone needs more info, feel free to contact me off list. Paul On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:03 PM, ben wrote: > > .R ETOS >> ETOS V5B >> OPTION?T >> >> ?LOGIN PLEASE >> !LOGIN >> ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M. ON TUE 01-JAN-75 >> ACCOUNT? 0,4 >> PASSWORD? >> JOB 3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE 0 >> >> WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM >> TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE >> >> .^VS >> !ASSIGN DK1 >> !CONT >> >> .^VS >> !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0 >> !CONT >> >> .DIR CHN5: >> >> 01-JAN-75 >> >> ABSLDR.SV 6 04-JAN-73 >> CCL .SV 31 04-JAN-73 >> DIRECT.SV 7 04-JAN-73 >> PIP .SV 11 04-JAN-73 >> FOTP .SV 8 04-JAN-73 >> ... >> >> > .DIR > HELP > ADVNT > !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 21:13:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:13:13 -0700 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> Message-ID: <56205D39.9060509@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 02:19 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one > would need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at > 1/2 spacing. >> A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member >> some years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so >> don't require opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". If this was my circus, I'd machine a fixture consisting of a plate with the 33 sector/index holes precision-drilled and a top plate with the same holes and a hub for the floppy to fit over. Use the index hole to align the thing and then, using a sharpened punch, go around the entire 32-hole circuit. Presto--a pefectly-punched disk. The more elite may want to punch the holes with a laser. In either case, the cookie has to come out of the envelope, but that's usually not much of a problem. Or go over to vintage-computer.com. There's a fella there who's using an MCU to generate the sector pulses for 5.25" floppies. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 21:17:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:17:11 -0700 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: <1444868607.5181.6.camel@agj.net> References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <1444868607.5181.6.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <56205E27.7080700@sydex.com> On 10/14/2015 05:23 PM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > ons 2015-10-14 klockan 13:57 -0700 skrev Ian Finder: > It seems to exist a PS/2 (system)-to-HIL (keyboard/mouse) for those who > likes their old HIL keyboards. > > OR have sw which requires the identity HIL dongle. Absent everything else, reading through the HP HIL technical document, it seems as if interfacing to other devices using a not-very-powerful MCU wouldn't be beyond the range of practicality. 15-bit async serial words, 5 volt logic--all seems to be pretty straightforward. Is the reason that no one appears to be doing this because HP-HIL devices (and hosts) are relatively uncommon? --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 15 21:28:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:28:20 -0500 Subject: FOUND RE: nut bars? ;) Message-ID: <000201d107ba$53c86ad0$fb594070$@classiccmp.org> Cindy wrote... ----- Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps? http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf They call them "bar nuts" :-) ----- BINGO! That's the ones :) Thanks Cindy!! From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 21:41:57 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:41:57 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5D392DB5-83D8-4F3F-AC2E-145CF1C6C9EB@pobox.com> I resemble that remark ;-) Indeed, we did not do anything for 8" Chris On October 15, 2015 1:36:50 PM CDT, Dennis Boone wrote: >> I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to > > open the sleeve to punch one. > >A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some >years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't >require >opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". > >De -- Chris Elmquist From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 15 21:43:36 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:43:36 -0500 Subject: FOUND RE: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <000201d107ba$53c86ad0$fb594070$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d107ba$53c86ad0$fb594070$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a501d107bc$74d1af00$5e750d00$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:28 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: FOUND RE: nut bars? ;) Cindy wrote... ----- Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps? http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf They call them "bar nuts" :-) ----- BINGO! That's the ones :) Thanks Cindy!! You are very welcome. They are actually made by many different companies, and all seem to have different specs! See also: http://www.jonathanengr.com/custom-bracketry-c-113.html http://www.ecscase.com/rackmount http://www.newark.com/general-devices/ca8056-06-0020/bar-nut/dp/33K1263?ost= nut&categoryId=800000004825 and many others. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 21:54:37 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:54:37 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> Message-ID: <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> The punch aligns with the index hole since we are starting with soft-sector media and that's the only hole we have. Then it "clamps" the media and you rotate the punch and the media together to align each sector hole with a hole in the template part of the punch and slam the punch pin through. It's harder to put in words than it is to do. Generally, they worked pretty well. The original idea was Dwight's and I had a friend with precision machine shop build them from aluminum and delrin. Some users complained about "hanging chads" as the punch pin sometimes didn't cut the media cleanly but this was fairly rare. Chris On October 15, 2015 4:19:24 PM CDT, Jay Jaeger wrote: >So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one would >need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at 1/2 >spacing. > >Sent from my iPad > >On Oct 15, 2015, at 13:36, Dennis Boone wrote: > >>> I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want >to >>> open the sleeve to punch one. >> >> A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member >some >> years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't >require >> opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". >> >> De -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 22:06:43 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:06:43 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57A6FBB2-B974-4612-BF94-A6BA6D466D74@pobox.com> However, apparently the comfy cushions of the Cray were not so inhospitable to one pair of mammals that consummated their relationship on them in a certain MN data center during one late night shift. There _IS_ a story... Chris On October 15, 2015 4:53:15 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Contrary to your remaks I did not lose a lover. > >A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10 (liquid nitrogen) would be equally >inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one. > >I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix >sometime in the early 70s. On the test floor, I explored e >water-cooled >system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic >"shell". > >I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics. > >--Chuck -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 15 22:13:17 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:13:17 -0500 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: <57A6FBB2-B974-4612-BF94-A6BA6D466D74@pobox.com> References: <561DBA34.7050204@snarc.net> <20151014071100.GB1984@Update.UU.SE> <561E14BD.5030802@btinternet.com> <561E6378.9020900@btinternet.com> <561E992D.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> <57A6FBB2-B974-4612-BF94-A6BA6D466D74@pobox.com> Message-ID: Sorry, _the_ story is about Cray 1 which had upholstered seats. Cray 2 was not as comfortable. On October 15, 2015 10:06:43 PM CDT, Chris Elmquist wrote: >However, apparently the comfy cushions of the Cray were not so >inhospitable to one pair of mammals that consummated their relationship >on them in a certain MN data center during one late night shift. There >_IS_ a story... > >Chris > > >On October 15, 2015 4:53:15 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis >wrote: >>On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Contrary to your remaks I did not lose a lover. >> >>A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10 (liquid nitrogen) would be equally >>inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one. >> >>I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix >>sometime in the early 70s. On the test floor, I explored e >>water-cooled >>system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic >>"shell". >> >>I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics. >> >>--Chuck -- Chris Elmquist From wilson at dbit.com Thu Oct 15 23:17:27 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 00:17:27 -0400 Subject: 8-sector decpacks? In-Reply-To: <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> References: <067E743EBE07B141968CEFD17E4E810629913B44@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <30E55BC4-C1D5-43BD-AF80-84AFA37D42F3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20151016041727.GA26402@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 01:58:10PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >Half density? I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density. >RK02? Yes, RK02. But I could have sworn that it ran half-sized sectors, not half the number of full-sized sectors. Could be wrong. John Wilson D Bit From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 09:44:56 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:44:56 -0300 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. Message-ID: <561FBBE8.9040609@gmail.com> I am searching for a CPU card for a 9835 to replace the dead processor in my 9835A, but a CPU card from a 9845B/C would also be ok. I would prefer the 9835 card as it would be a drop in replacement but with a 9845 card I would have to transfer over the CPU module. The part number on the module should be 5061 3001. Paul. phb.hfx at gmail.com From scaron at umich.edu Thu Oct 15 15:53:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:53:15 -0400 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: <20151015203428.GC28547@n0jcf.net> References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20151015203428.GC28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I love those Nature Valley bars! Dark Chocolate Cherry is my favorite, LOL. The "speed rails" (with the latching mechanism to grab the holes in square post racks) we have nowadays are a real advance in data center equipment deployment. I can stuff almost an entire rack just working myself in maybe 30, 45 minutes ... I do not miss the days of the screw-threaded racks and all the nuts and bolts at all (well, save for the neat computers that sat in said racks) ... what a pain in the butt ... The only time the nuts and bolts really have to come out nowadays is when racking switches. Best, Sean On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 04:16PM -0400), Dennis Boone wrote: > > > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't > > > find this. > > > > It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap > > about this terminology. :) > > http://www.naturevalley.com/nut-bars/ > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 00:06:44 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:06:44 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote: > > Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the Baudot machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are. A brief overview of the technology: In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes: Era Common Model Code Speed Common Interface Mechanism ====== ============ ========== ======= =============== ============ 1) 1930s-40s: Model 15,19 5-level ~30-50 bps 60mA current loop Modified Typewriter Cage 2) 1950s-60s: Model 28 5-level <=75 bps 60mA current loop Typebox 3) 1960s-70s: Model 33 7/8-level/ASCII 110 bps 20mA current loop Type Cylinder These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper fed from a roll. There are other models, variations on the above. Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in one dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers. The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as speed and code capability followed from the mechanism: 1) Modified Typewriter Cage: Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common typewriter. 2) Typebox: An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins in two 4*8 matrices. The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a selected symbol pin between a hammer and the paper. 3) Type Cylinder: A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved up/down and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol. The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is not strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes (International Telegraphy Alphabet No.2). The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set. 5-level machines need code conversion of course. They all need current loop interfaces. A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so associated with computers. For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 00:19:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:19:02 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <562088C6.6030507@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are > potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for > 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using > could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down > in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial > interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud > rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not > difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. These were more common in the 8-bit area. Typically, a Z80 machine would involve a CTC and DART, so you could set the CTC count/divide for any reasonable rate needed. This is probably the case also for many current MCUs that feature a built-in UART/USART or even designs using the Intel 8251--which often would be fed by an 8253/54. I believe the x86 "microcontrollers" such ash the 80186EB or NEC V20/V30 would also qualify. For PC cards using UARTs with built-in divisors, simply changing the oscillator crystal would do the trick--IIRC, this was done with early MIDI setups. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 00:23:23 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:23:23 -0700 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: References: <000901d10779$8d99f710$a8cde530$@classiccmp.org> <20151015201623.E29C7A5861D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20151015203428.GC28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <562089CB.80001@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 01:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I love those Nature Valley bars! Dark Chocolate Cherry is my > favorite, LOL. > > The "speed rails" (with the latching mechanism to grab the holes in > square post racks) we have nowadays are a real advance in data center > equipment deployment. I can stuff almost an entire rack just working > myself in maybe 30, 45 minutes ... My wife has a fondness for the plain nut bars. To me, like most granola bars, they taste like sawdust. Cage nuts and clip nuts are still used on rackmount equipment. Not quite as much fumbling involved. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 00:58:25 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:58:25 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <562088C6.6030507@sydex.com> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> <562088C6.6030507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2A48F8BC-2E55-4B39-9A9F-66DDB34864CF@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-15, at 10:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/15/2015 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are >> potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for >> 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using >> could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down >> in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial >> interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud >> rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not >> difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. > > These were more common in the 8-bit area. Typically, a Z80 machine would involve a CTC and DART, so you could set the CTC count/divide for any reasonable rate needed. > > This is probably the case also for many current MCUs that feature a built-in UART/USART or even designs using the Intel 8251--which often would be fed by an 8253/54. I believe the x86 "microcontrollers" such ash the 80186EB or NEC V20/V30 would also qualify. > > For PC cards using UARTs with built-in divisors, simply changing the oscillator crystal would do the trick--IIRC, this was done with early MIDI setups. Sure, if you can hack the hardware or have low-level access to the device you can typically set the interval-counter base in accordance with it's capabilities (time resolution). But working from OSX unix system-call level to a plastic-encapsulated USB-serial dongle, I was pleasantly surprised that "75" was accepted by the IO/device driver. IIRC, it didn't accept 110 or other values outside the divide-by-2 sequence, and 75 was the final. So it wasn't a general frequency-to-period calculation from a high-res timer. Maybe it was a factor-of-two calculation that hit the counter resolution limit at 75, or the driver writer actually included 75 in a table lookup. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Oct 16 01:14:57 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:14:57 -0700 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those be usable in an RX01 drive? I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be for the 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the thought of 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) Can anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 01:20:22 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:20:22 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <02de01d107da$bd420320$37c60960$@yahoo.ca> Thanks for this great explanation. So would anyone doing computing back in the early 70s have used a 5 level machine? I saw this one on ebay (or is it two? Not sure what the deal is here) It's probably sacked: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121784463105?hash=item1c5aeb6f01:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote: > > Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the Baudot machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are. A brief overview of the technology: In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes: Era Common Model Code Speed Common Interface Mechanism ====== ============ ========== ======= =============== ============ 1) 1930s-40s: Model 15,19 5-level ~30-50 bps 60mA current loop Modified Typewriter Cage 2) 1950s-60s: Model 28 5-level <=75 bps 60mA current loop Typebox 3) 1960s-70s: Model 33 7/8-level/ASCII 110 bps 20mA current loop Type Cylinder These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper fed from a roll. There are other models, variations on the above. Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in one dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers. The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as speed and code capability followed from the mechanism: 1) Modified Typewriter Cage: Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common typewriter. 2) Typebox: An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins in two 4*8 matrices. The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a selected symbol pin between a hammer and the paper. 3) Type Cylinder: A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved up/down and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol. The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is not strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes (International Telegraphy Alphabet No.2). The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set. 5-level machines need code conversion of course. They all need current loop interfaces. A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so associated with computers. For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 01:42:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:42:10 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <2A48F8BC-2E55-4B39-9A9F-66DDB34864CF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> <562088C6.6030507@sydex.com> <2A48F8BC-2E55-4B39-9A9F-66DDB34864CF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56209C42.5090100@sydex.com> On 10/15/2015 10:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > But working from OSX unix system-call level to a plastic-encapsulated > USB-serial dongle, I was pleasantly surprised that "75" was accepted > by the IO/device driver. IIRC, it didn't accept 110 or other values > outside the divide-by-2 sequence, and 75 was the final. So it wasn't > a general frequency-to-period calculation from a high-res timer. > Maybe it was a factor-of-two calculation that hit the counter > resolution limit at 75, or the driver writer actually included 75 in > a table lookup. All USB-to-RS232 bridge chips appear to derive their BRG base from a 12MHz internal oscillator. In spite of some folks' high opinion of FTDI chips, they're far from the most flexible. The FT231x, for example, bottoms out at 183.1 bps. On the other hand, the rather "prolific" Prolific PL2303, found on many cheap Chinese adapters does, in fact, bottom out at 75 bps with the standard driver. Apparently, custom/nonstandard rates are also possible, but the datasheet specifies that Prolific needs to be contacted for details. I suspect that this involves an NDA. The Nanjing Qin Heng CH340, also found on inexpensive adapters, reached down to 50 bps. The Microchip MCP2200 appears to bottom out at 300 bps as well, but there's a configuration utility available (according to the datasheet) that allows for non-standard rates. No mention of the minimum, however At first blush, it seems that cheap Chinese converters could be your friend in this case. The USB-to-TTL dongles that I pay around $1 for shipped from eBay use the PL2303. Perhaps one could form the basis of a current loop to USB interface. FWIW Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 16 02:03:09 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:03:09 -0400 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype Message-ID: <6b6e6.39aefeca.4351fb2d@aol.com> the red apple ref book had a 5 level running off game port or??? something as I remember....Ed# In a message dated 10/15/2015 11:20:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, unclefalter at yahoo.ca writes: Thanks for this great explanation. So would anyone doing computing back in the early 70s have used a 5 level machine? I saw this one on ebay (or is it two? Not sure what the deal is here) It's probably sacked: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121784463105?hash=item1c5aeb6f01:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote: > > Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the Baudot machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are. A brief overview of the technology: In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes: Era Common Model Code Speed Common Interface Mechanism ====== ============ ========== ======= =============== ============ 1) 1930s-40s: Model 15,19 5-level ~30-50 bps 60mA current loop Modified Typewriter Cage 2) 1950s-60s: Model 28 5-level <=75 bps 60mA current loop Typebox 3) 1960s-70s: Model 33 7/8-level/ASCII 110 bps 20mA current loop Type Cylinder These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper fed from a roll. There are other models, variations on the above. Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in one dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers. The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as speed and code capability followed from the mechanism: 1) Modified Typewriter Cage: Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common typewriter. 2) Typebox: An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins in two 4*8 matrices. The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a selected symbol pin between a hammer and the paper. 3) Type Cylinder: A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved up/down and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol. The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is not strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes (International Telegraphy Alphabet No.2). The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set. 5-level machines need code conversion of course. They all need current loop interfaces. A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so associated with computers. For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 02:21:58 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:21:58 +0100 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012701d107e3$58451cb0$08cf5610$@gmail.com> If memory serves me correctly PSI is the X.25 packet switching software. If it exists I would like a copy, assuming I can get the matching version of VMS... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. > Blair > Sent: 16 October 2015 07:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies > > I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those be > usable in an RX01 drive? > > I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be for the > 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the thought of > 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) Can > anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide > whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 02:47:28 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:47:28 +0100 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <02de01d107da$bd420320$37c60960$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> <02de01d107da$bd420320$37c60960$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <015001d107e6$e8e50250$baaf06f0$@gmail.com> In Volume 1 Issue 6 August 1979 of the '68' Micro Journal I see there is a routine to bit-bang 5-level code to a Teleprinter..... .. I know that's late 70's but in the UK older 5-Level machines were available cheaply as the GPO (General Post Office) moved from older Creed-7's onto Creed 444's for its Telex and Telegram service. I don't know what happened in the US but many Hams had Model 15 TTY's and I would have thought they were available at a reasonable cost , well certainly as compared to a Model 33. Note there was also a model 32 which is 5-level version of the 33... So yes they were used, but perhaps not as the only input device... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: 16 October 2015 07:20 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype > > Thanks for this great explanation. So would anyone doing computing back in > the early 70s have used a 5 level machine? > > I saw this one on ebay (or is it two? Not sure what the deal is here) It's > probably sacked: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1- > reperforater- > 1-50vdc-supply-etc- > /121784463105?hash=item1c5aeb6f01:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype > > On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote: > > > > Also separate question to others: I want to stay away from the Baudot > machines, right? (ie. Model 28, etc) > > I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are. > A brief overview of the technology: > > In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes: > > Era Common Model Code > Speed Common Interface Mechanism > ====== ============ ========== > ======= =============== ============ > > 1) 1930s-40s: Model 15,19 5-level > ~30-50 bps 60mA current loop Modified Typewriter Cage > > 2) 1950s-60s: Model 28 5-level > <=75 bps 60mA current loop Typebox > > 3) 1960s-70s: Model 33 7/8-level/ASCII 110 > bps 20mA current loop Type Cylinder > > These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper > fed from a roll. > There are other models, variations on the above. > Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in > one dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers. > > The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as > speed and code capability followed from the mechanism: > > 1) Modified Typewriter Cage: > Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms > arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common typewriter. > > 2) Typebox: > An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins in > two 4*8 matrices. > The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a > selected > symbol pin between a hammer and the paper. > > 3) Type Cylinder: > A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved > up/down and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol. > > The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is > not strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes (International > Telegraphy Alphabet No.2). > > The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set. > > 5-level machines need code conversion of course. > > They all need current loop interfaces. > > A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so > associated with computers. > > For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are > potentially awkward. > When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I > found the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps > - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common > 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this > I have no idea. > Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program > is not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do. > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 16 03:07:00 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:07:00 +0200 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-16 08:14, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those be usable in an RX01 drive? Yes. The RX01 and RX02 is the same format. It's only the data part of the sector that differs. > I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be for the 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the thought of 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) Can anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? Yes, most likely a distribution intended for people with an 11/78x. The software was probably available on several different media. PSI is (as others have mentioned) the packetswitch interface software. So X.25 for DECnet. Johnny From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 03:08:50 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:08:50 +0100 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> References: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 16 October 2015 09:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies > > On 2015-10-16 08:14, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those > be usable in an RX01 drive? > > Yes. The RX01 and RX02 is the same format. It's only the data part of the > sector that differs. > > > I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be for > the 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the thought > of 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) Can > anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide > whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? > > Yes, most likely a distribution intended for people with an 11/78x. The > software was probably available on several different media. > > PSI is (as others have mentioned) the packetswitch interface software. > So X.25 for DECnet. >From what I remember it does not need DECnet.... > > Johnny From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 03:27:26 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 01:27:26 -0700 Subject: Fair price and ways to find a teletype In-Reply-To: <02de01d107da$bd420320$37c60960$@yahoo.ca> References: <010501d10638$6badc2e0$430948a0$@yahoo.ca> <016101d106b0$d9dfd230$8d9f7690$@yahoo.ca> <561EACF9.2010506@jetnet.ab.ca> <02af01d107b1$9386b5e0$ba9421a0$@yahoo.ca> <7A4425ED-5E1C-405C-91E0-3E3039302457@cs.ubc.ca> <02de01d107da$bd420320$37c60960$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <53D43390-1F33-4F0E-8D21-58F34C30E5DB@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-15, at 11:20 PM, Brad wrote: > Thanks for this great explanation. So would anyone doing computing back in > the early 70s have used a 5 level machine? As others mentioned, there was some use of 5-level machines with hobbyist computers in the 70s. 5-level machines were available as surplus in the 70s and the idea was that they could be an inexpensive terminal or hard-copy printer. So in the era of the first generation of PCs - the hobbyist era, Altair, SWTP 6800, etc. - there was some degree of effort to interface to 5-level machines. In practice I believe the use was pretty limited. It faded away pretty quickly, in part because the 5-level machines have a small character set - inadequate for 70s programming languages and apps. BTW: "-level" is just the term used in the teletype world for the number of bits in the character code. Presumably it's use in the teletype world predates the term bit for binary digit, or binary association. > I saw this one on ebay (or is it two? Not sure what the deal is here) > It's probably sacked: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- > 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121784463105?hash=item1c5aeb6f01:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs Well, there is a model 28 there. + inside, as much as one can see in the pic, the mechanism looks pretty good. - missing a key - looks like a pretty worn keyboard shroud - horrible paint job of the case exterior. The 'reperforator' looks like it could be this: http://www.baudot.net/teletype/M28-X.htm#M28-KTR Not directly familiar with the model but it sounds like it does keyboard-to-loop and loop-to-punch-tape-with-print Seems like a pretty steep price for the condition, esp. after shipping. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 16 04:21:50 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:21:50 +0200 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. In-Reply-To: <561FBBE8.9040609@gmail.com> References: <561FBBE8.9040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Paul Berger > Verzonden: donderdag 15 oktober 2015 16:45 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Processor card for a HP 9835. > > I am searching for a CPU card for a 9835 to replace the dead processor in my > 9835A, but a CPU card from a 9845B/C would also be ok. I would prefer the > 9835 card as it would be a drop in replacement but with a > 9845 card I would have to transfer over the CPU module. The part number on > the module should be 5061 3001. > > Paul. phb.hfx at gmail.com Hi Paul, I think I have a HP 9845 board somewhere, but did you checked the connection between the processor and the pcb. It's made by a combination of polymer with gold wire on it. This is the first time I heard of a bad processor, there is a much higher change of bad connections than of a defective processor. The connector principle is the same as in the HP-41C from where it's known to cause some trouble. Let me know the outcome if you're sure it's the processor I'll dive in to my parts stack ;) -Rik From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 16 04:47:19 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 05:47:19 -0400 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode Message-ID: <6c21a.725f28c0.435221a7@aol.com> Amazing! I had not seen this - a great chronicle! It is important for all the folks to write up what they did... if they do not there will be no record... Ed# - _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/14/2015 6:34:04 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, lproven at gmail.com writes: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode A bridge to 21st Century Computing By Jack Allweiss Copyright 2010 My name is Jack A. Allweiss, also known as ?The Father of the B5900 System?. I did not give myself that title, my friends and co-workers at Burroughs Corporation did, and I consider it a great honor. This true story is about the B5900, and why it was an important milestone for Burroughs and later Unisys, as well as the computer industry in general. ? http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/BurrMain.html From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 16 05:37:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:37:33 +0200 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> References: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5620D36D.80505@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-16 10:08, Dave Wade wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny >> Billquist >> Sent: 16 October 2015 09:07 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies >> >> On 2015-10-16 08:14, Mark J. Blair wrote: >>> I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those >> be usable in an RX01 drive? >> >> Yes. The RX01 and RX02 is the same format. It's only the data part of the >> sector that differs. >> >>> I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be > for >> the 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the > thought >> of 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) > Can >> anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide >> whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? >> >> Yes, most likely a distribution intended for people with an 11/78x. The >> software was probably available on several different media. >> >> PSI is (as others have mentioned) the packetswitch interface software. >> So X.25 for DECnet. > > From what I remember it does not need DECnet.... You might be right. I partly based that comment on the RSX P.S.I product. Not sure how you'd handle this without DECnet, but I obviously don't the know any VMS specifics. In RSX, you can certainly communicate over X.25 without the DECnet overhead, but you use NCP to configure your X.25 links. So you need at least the CEX subsystem, but not the full DECnet stack. Johnny From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 06:00:43 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:00:43 +0100 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <5620D36D.80505@update.uu.se> References: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> <5620D36D.80505@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <030c01d10801$e7c0b250$b74216f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny > Billquist > Sent: 16 October 2015 11:38 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies > > On 2015-10-16 10:08, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Johnny Billquist > >> Sent: 16 October 2015 09:07 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies > >> > >> On 2015-10-16 08:14, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >>> I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would > those > >> be usable in an RX01 drive? > >> > >> Yes. The RX01 and RX02 is the same format. It's only the data part of > >> the sector that differs. > >> > >>> I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must > >>> be > > for > >> the 11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the > > thought > >> of 11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. > >> :) > > Can > >> anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me > >> decide whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them? > >> > >> Yes, most likely a distribution intended for people with an 11/78x. > >> The software was probably available on several different media. > >> > >> PSI is (as others have mentioned) the packetswitch interface software. > >> So X.25 for DECnet. > > > > From what I remember it does not need DECnet.... > > You might be right. I partly based that comment on the RSX P.S.I product. Not > sure how you'd handle this without DECnet, but I obviously don't the know > any VMS specifics. In RSX, you can certainly communicate over X.25 without > the DECnet overhead, but you use NCP to configure your > X.25 links. So you need at least the CEX subsystem, but not the full DECnet > stack. >From what I remember VAX PSI has its own programs to configure the X.25 links. Certainly in the early days the only connectivity that was supported was X.3, X.28 and X.29 terminal access. So there was an X.29 terminal program, and you could connect to the VAX from an X.29 PAD. The problem was as the VAX kind of insists on sending one character per packet the overhead was horrendous. In the UK we had coloured book protocols that ran on top of X.25 to provide mail and file transfer. I think Reading University wrote the VAX version but Digital marketed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloured_Book_protocols The poor performance due to the character mode terminals and other aspects of the software meant it was pretty much universally hated by DEC lovers as this tirade shows... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/QU1svFCgAkM In fact DEC had little option. If they had not provided the X.25 software they would have been unable to sell large machines to UK Universities as support of Janet was required to get central government funding. > > Johnny Dave G4UGM From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 06:37:45 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:37:45 +1300 Subject: Anyone know of Sun Voyager bags for sale? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Horrific hijacking topic-drift but I remember your name from a recent google... ages ago you were trying to get an IBM 9348 9-track working with a USB to SCSI converter... did you succeed? What did you use? I'm in exactly the same position! Thanks Mike On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 6:59 AM, wrote: > Anyone know of any of the padded cases for Sun Voyagers that would be for > sale? > > (Sun Microsystems portable sparcstation) > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Oct 16 07:37:14 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:37:14 -0400 Subject: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation In-Reply-To: References: <561EBCD6.5020209@sydex.com> <561EBFFA.2000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <561EC408.3030708@sydex.com> <561EDC9B.3020209@jetnet.ab.ca> <561FFF18.90709@sydex.com> <56201607.9040800@btinternet.com> <5620204B.40009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151016123714.GJ29193@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [151015 18:00]: > > I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics. > > Yeah, I get excited about liquid cooled mainframes, too. > > -- > Will ROFLMAO! From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Oct 16 00:24:41 2015 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:24:41 -0700 Subject: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56208A19.6070206@snowmoose.com> Thanks for posting this. Very interesting and it was fun to see names that I have not heard for nearly 30 years. (I worked on system software for Burroughs/Unisys from 86-89.) However, it does have a couple of errors (e.g., Burroughs and Sperry merged in 86, not 85). alan On 10/14/15 6:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I don't know if this memoir is well-known or not, but I thought it > might interest. > > ? > > The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode > A bridge to 21st Century Computing > > By Jack Allweiss Copyright 2010 > > My name is Jack A. Allweiss, also known as ?The Father of the B5900 > System?. I did not give myself that title, my friends and co-workers > at Burroughs Corporation did, and I consider it a great honor. This > true story is about the B5900, and why it was an important milestone > for Burroughs and later Unisys, as well as the computer industry in > general. > ? > > http://jack.hoa.org/hoajaa/BurrMain.html > From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 16 10:05:34 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know of Sun Voyager bag reading 9 track tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Horrific hijacking topic-drift but I remember your name from a recent > google... ages ago you were trying to get an IBM 9348 9-track working > with a USB to SCSI converter... did you succeed? What did you use? I'm > in exactly the same position! > Thanks > Mike *AWESOME* You just reminded me of a project I need to get back to. Yea I was planning to use it as media storage for car audio (storing music on 9 track tape.) I have the drive still. I managed to get a SE to DIFF converter board and boxes. IIRC I bought one, then ended up with more from a SGI computer haul. The tape drive has a board internally that comes in both a SE and DIFF version, but the SE board was way more than the cost of a converter which should just be some simple logic chips or op amps or whatever. I bought some tapes from eBay for the project, have those nearby. The USB to SCSI adapter I had -- I think the trick to it is it could only handle 1 device, and the SCSI ID had to be 0 or 1. I still haven't but haven't used it. These days, if I revist the project, I'd probably go with an ACARD or modern similar device that does IDE To SCSI bridging. I have no idea how tape drives work, and how those little bridge gadgets handle forwarding SCSI CDB and other data. Are they only meant for hard drives? Could NetBSD unix tape commands work with the drive? Not really sure. The drive is in Norfolk in storage. So I got all the parts, then never got around to making it go. One thing was all the cables needed since it was like 68 to 68 then 68 to 50 then 50 to 25 to use the USB thing. I never settled on the playback board, now there are way more options! At one point I even had permission from the 80s band Information Society to use there song "Where would we be without IBM" in a video of the whole thing. Hmp. -- Ethan O'Toole From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 10:18:23 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:18:23 -0700 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net>, <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org>, <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net>, <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> Message-ID: I do still have some 16 hole 5-1/4 punches left. ( anyone want one? ) Actually it was stainless and Delrin. I'd makes some slight changes if I did it again. It really needed two alignment pins. It didn't need to have the envelope removed. One rotated the envelope to expose the next hole location. Dwight > From: chrise at pobox.com > > The punch aligns with the index hole since we are starting with soft-sector media and that's the only hole we have. Then it "clamps" the media and you rotate the punch and the media together to align each sector hole with a hole in the template part of the punch and slam the punch pin through. It's harder to put in words than it is to do. > > Generally, they worked pretty well. The original idea was Dwight's and I had a friend with precision machine shop build them from aluminum and delrin. > > Some users complained about "hanging chads" as the punch pin sometimes didn't cut the media cleanly but this was fairly rare. > > Chris > > On October 15, 2015 4:19:24 PM CDT, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one would > >need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at 1/2 > >spacing. > > > >Sent from my iPad > > > >On Oct 15, 2015, at 13:36, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > >>> I doubt it. They need to be very accurate, and one would not want > >to > >>> open the sleeve to punch one. > >> > >> A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member > >some > >> years ago. They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't > >require > >> opening the sleeve. But they're for 5.25". > >> > >> De > > -- > Chris Elmquist From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Fri Oct 16 10:53:36 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 08:53:36 -0700 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:18 AM, dwight wrote: > I do still have some 16 hole 5-1/4 punches left. ( anyone want one? ) I?d love to see a picture of one just to see how it was made and how it clamps to the disk. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 16 10:55:49 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net>, <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org>, <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net>, <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <003201d1082b$20c89fd0$6259df70$@classiccmp.org> Dwight wrote.... ------ I'd makes some slight changes if I did it again. ------ How about support for 8"? ;) J From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 11:16:38 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:16:38 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Message-ID: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> Hey guys, Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the know - I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little about assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have any of you ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial connector on its mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could patch it to one of my terminals. Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to test it and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip on it (there are three of them actually) and one in the middle is marked 'BAD'. I understand those handle peripherals. I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these that gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere - wondered if anyone had seen one in the wild. Brad From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 16 11:46:45 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:45 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <004501d10832$40478130$c0d68390$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 15 October 2015 23:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU > > Back in April, I wrote: > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > > > One of my DECserver 90M PSUs got dropped and stopped working as a > > > result, possibly because it got pulled by the cable. That sounds > > > like the kind of damage that might be repairable. I tried to open > > > the enclosure and I found a hole under one of the labels, expecting it to be > a screw hole, but it isn't. > > > I am guessing you just have to pry the halves apart, but without > > > knowing where the clips are inside it is easy just to break the thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how you open these PSUs? > > > > > > > As far as I recall, there are no clips - it is glued all the way around. > > > > Mine (actaully a 90TL, with H7082-AB PSU) failed too. Using a lot of > > patience, I pried it open without too much damage, fixed it (a > > capacitor in the startup circuit IIRC) and glued it back together. > > The end result was only slightly rough looking and would probably have been > better with a more suitable glue. > > The thing has a very Lego-like quality about it. > > > > It failed again some time later and I haven't had the enthusiasm to > > break it open again since. > > > > I finally worked up the enthusiasm. It was easy to open this time as the glue I > used to put it back together last time was not so good. While I was measuring > voltages on the input side, out of the corner of my eye I noticed the LEDs on the > front of the terminal server lighting up briefly. I found that I could get them to > light up consistently by pressing a meter probe on one of the legs of the > chopper transformer and after deploying the magnifying glass, I found a tiny > crack in the print leading to it. > > That was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. I hope it lasts a bit > longer this time though. > > Now I find that the privileged password is not what I thought it is... > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I tried to pry mine open, but it seemed that if I kept going I would end up damaging it more than I would like. Do you have a picture of the opened casing I could see? That would help me to see how best to open it. Thanks Rob From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 12:03:33 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:03:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone know of Sun Voyager bag reading 9 track tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A nine track drive would certainly not work with an ACARD adapter- they are "intelligent" designed for mass storage. And on top of that the only adapters I know of go the wrong way (IDE devices on a SCSI bus), though I haven't researched the reverse. I gave Josh Dersch a Xircom USB to SCSI not so long ago and we had no issue getting it to talk to an HP SCSI 9-track tape drive and even streaming music off of it. Linux handles both devices fine- plug and play. I have a Microtech USB to SCSI and it worked similarly although my 9-track streamer is sort of screwed. There's not even a project here. Connect the cables and try it, or forever hold your postulation... ;) Sent from my iPhone On Oct 16, 2015, at 08:05, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Horrific hijacking topic-drift but I remember your name from a recent >> google... ages ago you were trying to get an IBM 9348 9-track working >> with a USB to SCSI converter... did you succeed? What did you use? I'm >> in exactly the same position! >> Thanks >> Mike > > *AWESOME* You just reminded me of a project I need to get back to. Yea I was planning to use it as media storage for car audio (storing music on 9 track tape.) > > I have the drive still. I managed to get a SE to DIFF converter board and boxes. IIRC I bought one, then ended up with more from a SGI computer haul. The tape drive has a board internally that comes in both a SE and DIFF version, but the SE board was way more than the cost of a converter which should just be some simple logic chips or op amps or whatever. > > I bought some tapes from eBay for the project, have those nearby. > > The USB to SCSI adapter I had -- I think the trick to it is it could only handle 1 device, and the SCSI ID had to be 0 or 1. I still haven't but haven't used it. > > These days, if I revist the project, I'd probably go with an ACARD or modern similar device that does IDE To SCSI bridging. > > I have no idea how tape drives work, and how those little bridge gadgets handle forwarding SCSI CDB and other data. Are they only meant for hard drives? Could NetBSD unix tape commands work with the drive? Not really sure. > > The drive is in Norfolk in storage. > > So I got all the parts, then never got around to making it go. One thing was all the cables needed since it was like 68 to 68 then 68 to 50 then 50 to 25 to use the USB thing. I never settled on the playback board, now there are way more options! > > At one point I even had permission from the 80s band Information Society to use there song "Where would we be without IBM" in a video of the whole thing. Hmp. > > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Oct 16 12:08:52 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:08:52 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <004501d10832$40478130$c0d68390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: >> longer this time though. >> >> Now I find that the privileged password is not what I thought it is... >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. > > I tried to pry mine open, but it seemed that if I kept going I would end up > damaging it more than I would like. Do you have a picture of the opened > casing I could see? That would help me to see how best to open it. > > Thanks > > Rob This isn't going to be much help, but when we maintained a lot of 90*L it was easier to bin the PSUs and buy 'new' ones. Not worth our time to break them open... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 16 12:14:05 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:14:05 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: References: <004501d10832$40478130$c0d68390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <004c01d10836$10c531b0$324f9510$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 16 October 2015 18:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU > > >> longer this time though. > >> > >> Now I find that the privileged password is not what I thought it is... > >> > >> Regards, > >> Peter Coghlan. > > > > I tried to pry mine open, but it seemed that if I kept going I would > > end up damaging it more than I would like. Do you have a picture of > > the opened casing I could see? That would help me to see how best to open it. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > This isn't going to be much help, but when we maintained a lot of 90*L it was > easier to bin the PSUs and buy 'new' ones. Not worth our time to break them > open... > > -- Yes, I know. And I also know that it is pretty easy to make a new one with a wall wart and a connector from Maplin, but I would like to retain the originality if at all possible, and they are not quite so easy to find these days. Regards Rob From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 16 12:25:22 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know of Sun Voyager bag reading 9 track tapes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A nine track drive would certainly not work with an ACARD adapter- they are "intelligent" designed for mass storage. And on top of that the only adapters I know of go the wrong way (IDE devices on a SCSI bus), though I haven't researched the reverse. Derp yea. Forgot about that. I've only used the ACARD boards in music hardware not stand alone computers and forgot the direction. > I gave Josh Dersch a Xircom USB to SCSI not so long ago and we had no > issue getting it to talk to an HP SCSI 9-track tape drive and even > streaming music off of it. Linux handles both devices fine- plug and > play. I have a Microtech USB to SCSI and it worked similarly although my > 9-track streamer is sort of screwed. There's not even a project here. > Connect the cables and try it, or forever hold your postulation... ;) Cool. The USB to SCSI dongles I have are old and unbranded but NetBSD picked them up. Back then I think I was trying to use an embedded board, so many more options now. I had Pentium1 board with PC/104 sound card. TBH, I think QIC tapes might be a bit better since you can mount the drive in the dash. There are 13GB versions or something so you could get a few blu-ray rips on each tape. -- Ethan O'Toole From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Oct 16 12:47:59 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:47:59 +0000 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <030c01d10801$e7c0b250$b74216f0$@gmail.com> References: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> <5620D36D.80505@update.uu.se> <030c01d10801$e7c0b250$b74216f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC10AAC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 4:01 AM > In fact DEC had little option. If they had not provided the X.25 software > they would have been unable to sell large machines to UK Universities as > support of Janet was required to get central government funding. "Damn it, Janet!" Rich From chrise at pobox.com Fri Oct 16 13:00:59 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:00:59 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> Message-ID: <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> On Friday (10/16/2015 at 08:53AM -0700), Chris Osborn wrote: > > On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:18 AM, dwight wrote: > > > I do still have some 16 hole 5-1/4 punches left. ( anyone want one? ) > > I?d love to see a picture of one just to see how it was made and how it clamps to the disk. I will take some photos later today and round up some of the documentation we had for them and then send another note with links to same. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:06:18 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:06:18 -0500 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: The Heathkit ET-3400 (another SBC trainer) also used the M6800 CPU. Now I realize that the two machines probably have fairly different ROMs, but otherwise some of the 3400 materials / programs should cross-over to the u68. It might even simply be a matter of translating ROM calls.. Anyway, I have a full set of docs for the ET-3400. If you're interested, I can find a way to get a copy to you. -Bill On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the know > - > I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in > educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little about > assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have any of you > ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial connector on its > mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could patch it to one of my > terminals. > > > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to test it > and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip on it (there > are three of them actually) and one in the middle is marked 'BAD'. I > understand those handle peripherals. > > > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these that > gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere - wondered > if anyone had seen one in the wild. > > > > Brad > > > > > > From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 16 13:29:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:29:03 -0500 Subject: Contents of DEC 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC10AAC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5620B024.8050503@update.uu.se> <000f01d107e9$e50046b0$af00d410$@gmail.com> <5620D36D.80505@update.uu.se> <030c01d10801$e7c0b250$b74216f0$@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC10AAC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <562141EF.9090200@charter.net> On 10/16/2015 12:47 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Dave G4UGM > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 4:01 AM > >> In fact DEC had little option. If they had not provided the X.25 software >> they would have been unable to sell large machines to UK Universities as >> support of Janet was required to get central government funding. > > "Damn it, Janet!" > > Rich Regarding that last quote, note the program on BBC America at midnight Saturday.... ;) From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 13:27:49 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:27:49 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this thing. As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it and use it? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of drlegendre . Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) The Heathkit ET-3400 (another SBC trainer) also used the M6800 CPU. Now I realize that the two machines probably have fairly different ROMs, but otherwise some of the 3400 materials / programs should cross-over to the u68. It might even simply be a matter of translating ROM calls.. Anyway, I have a full set of docs for the ET-3400. If you're interested, I can find a way to get a copy to you. -Bill On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the > know > - > I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in > educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little > about assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have > any of you ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial > connector on its mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could > patch it to one of my terminals. > > > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to > test it and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip > on it (there are three of them actually) and one in the middle is > marked 'BAD'. I understand those handle peripherals. > > > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these > that gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere > - wondered if anyone had seen one in the wild. > > > > Brad > > > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From fast79ta at yahoo.com Fri Oct 16 13:30:25 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:30:25 -0600 Subject: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS In-Reply-To: <006401d10649$1d667c10$58337430$@gmail.com> References: <006401d10649$1d667c10$58337430$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901d10840$bb53de60$31fb9b20$@yahoo.com> Very cool.. I have the same or very similar HP 88780 that I grabbed from a local recycler for $5, I just don't have any tapes for it yet. That autoload cycle is quite the thing. Amazing you got all that gear working on a modern laptop. Set up your own data center with all those goodies. I might be bugging you for help with the 88780 when I get that far down the TO-DO list. Cheers, Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marc > Verdiell > Sent: 2015-10-14 12:25 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Writing SCSI 9-Track Mag Tapes from Windows/DOS > > Woot! I finally got my HP 7970E (yeah, a year in the making!), HP 88780, and > Overland Data OD3201 9-track tapes all working at the same time. One on HP- > IB, one on SCSI-1, and one on Parallel Port interface. Only my ever finicky > Qualstars got jealous and decided not to play ball. Here is a family > video: > https://youtu.be/eCBxNhEzIfc > The DOS computer is a vintage Dolch PAC 65. > Thanks for all here who helped with tips, documentation and software. > > Marc > From fast79ta at yahoo.com Fri Oct 16 13:41:56 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:41:56 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <004b01d10842$56c30460$04490d20$@yahoo.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David > Gesswein > Sent: 2015-10-14 6:38 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP8 / ETOS > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:06:25AM -0600, Joe wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 09:56:36AM -0600, Joe wrote: > > Thanks for the response. I guess not to many people have messed around > > with > > Multos8 or ETOS. > > > You using my copy or do you have your own? Using emulator or real machine? I am using your copy, with SIMH 4.0, on the PiDP8 replica.. I'd love to have a real 8, but I have neither the space or permission for anything that large. I found the .TIFF manual on another site, and PDF'd it. I also got Multos8 from you, and was playing with it too. That one, I haven't figured out how to add a second serial terminal to the unit. One works fine, the other causes SIMH to freak out with lots of blinky lights before it or the PDP8 finally crashes. I'm sure it's a problem with BUILD configuration. I haven't had much luck with it. > > > I'm trying to add an OS/8 disk pack so I can mess around with the > > timesharing on two terminals. > > > > Using SIMH since I only have one RK05 on the machine right now. > > [djg at laptop BIN]$ ./pdp8 > > PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: d4720d35 > sim> att rk0 etosv5b-demo.rk05 > sim> att rk1 diagpack2.rk05 > sim> set tsc enabled > sim> bo rk0 > > .R ETOS > ETOS V5B > OPTION?T > > ?LOGIN PLEASE > !LOGIN > ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M. ON TUE 01-JAN-75 ACCOUNT? 0,4 PASSWORD? > JOB 3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE 0 > > WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM > TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE > > .^VS > !ASSIGN DK1 > !CONT > > .^VS > !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0 > !CONT > > .DIR CHN5: > > 01-JAN-75 > > ABSLDR.SV 6 04-JAN-73 > CCL .SV 31 04-JAN-73 > DIRECT.SV 7 04-JAN-73 > PIP .SV 11 04-JAN-73 > FOTP .SV 8 04-JAN-73 > ... Well, you seems to have nailed it. I'll give that a go, but it looks very similar to what I was trying, minus the CONT command, and I was using lookup 3, not 5. It's such a cool system, and I blew a lot of minds when I was showing it at my hackerspace, running on two real serial terminals running 2 basic programs at the same time, and said it was running on a 32KW machine, with a 1.6MW drive, back in the 70s. Thanks for the help, and making this historical stuff available! Cheers, Joe From fast79ta at yahoo.com Fri Oct 16 13:43:02 2015 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:43:02 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 2015-10-15 12:04 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP8 / ETOS > > > > .R ETOS > > ETOS V5B > > OPTION?T > > > > ?LOGIN PLEASE > > !LOGIN > > ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M. ON TUE 01-JAN-75 ACCOUNT? 0,4 PASSWORD? > > JOB 3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE 0 > > > > WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN > ASSISTANCE > > > > .^VS > > !ASSIGN DK1 > > !CONT > > > > .^VS > > !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0 > > !CONT > > > > .DIR CHN5: > > > > 01-JAN-75 > > > > ABSLDR.SV 6 04-JAN-73 > > CCL .SV 31 04-JAN-73 > > DIRECT.SV 7 04-JAN-73 > > PIP .SV 11 04-JAN-73 > > FOTP .SV 8 04-JAN-73 > > ... > > > > .DIR > HELP > ADVNT > !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! Funny, that was my original mission, to get ADVENT running on timeshare. Great minds think alike! Multos8 won't timeshare it either. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 13:47:03 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:47:03 -0700 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <56214627.4070909@sydex.com> On 10/16/2015 11:00 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (10/16/2015 at 08:53AM -0700), Chris Osborn wrote: > I will take some photos later today and round up some of the > documentation we had for them and then send another note with links > to same. Strange--up until about a year ago, I had a customer who routinely sent me batches of hard-sector 8" floppies recorded as soft-sector. When I asked about this, he stated that, at least for him, 8" HS floppies were far more abundant and relatively easy to find, compared with SS ones. He lives in Israel--maybe that made the difference. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:55:45 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 20:55:45 +0200 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 8:27 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this thing. As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it and use it? --------- >From all the SBCs that I know, the standard serial port is always active. The on-board monitor with very basic commands uses it as only means of communication. After reset the monitor will "print" possible a one-line identification and on the next line some form of prompt. Could be * or . or > or - or whatever. You need to know the com ports settings, but it prints an ID line you can try several baudrates. 9600 is a good start. If you want 6800 info, ask. I can dream 6800 opcodes! INX=$08, LDA # =$86, DEX=$09, STAindexed =$A6. etc. Depending on the RAM size, I have a StarTrek version in 6800 assembler that uses a serial port ... IIRC, it is some 1.5k - Henk From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 14:46:42 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:46:42 -0300 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. In-Reply-To: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <56215422.4080506@gmail.com> Hi Rik, As near as I can tell the connections are good, but I am pretty sure it is the CPU, the key had fallen out of the monitor cable and I accidentally plugged it in backwards, and when I turned it I almost immediately noticed the smell of magic smoke escaping. The +12V regulator was wrecked, both the 723 and its pass transistor plus a couple burned foil traces on the power supply board. I have repaired the power supply and all the voltages are good now, the clock input to the CPU is good, however the clock outputs are dead, and I do not see any evidence of life from the CPU. From checking after disconnecting everything it appears that the +12V output went up to more than twice its rated level. I also fear for the ROMs in the machine but I can fix that as I had already designed a ROM card for option ROMs that I could easily modify for the system ROMs. I am still evaluating the full extent of the damage. Paul. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 15:37:56 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:37:56 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> Thanks Henk, I tried that. No prompt comes up with PUTTY on serial set at any baud rate. Instead on the LED display I get a C, or an S sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 8:27 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this thing. As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it and use it? --------- >From all the SBCs that I know, the standard serial port is always active. The on-board monitor with very basic commands uses it as only means of communication. After reset the monitor will "print" possible a one-line identification and on the next line some form of prompt. Could be * or . or > or - or whatever. You need to know the com ports settings, but it prints an ID line you can try several baudrates. 9600 is a good start. If you want 6800 info, ask. I can dream 6800 opcodes! INX=$08, LDA # =$86, DEX=$09, STAindexed =$A6. etc. Depending on the RAM size, I have a StarTrek version in 6800 assembler that uses a serial port ... IIRC, it is some 1.5k - Henk ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 15:48:39 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:48:39 -0700 Subject: SWTPC CT1024 Message-ID: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> While I was fooling around with my ASCI I decided to test the serial connection to my PC. The only thing I had available was my CT-1024 terminal with the optional serial board. This unit never worked when I got it. Thought it was its ancient and probably non functional PSU, but after hooking it up to a bench PSU same issues: 1) Unstable video display with large whitish band in the middle. 2) No response to keypresses. 3) Field of blinking ? marks if cursor is switched off, garbled one line of random characters up top if switched on. When I connected it to my PC running PUTTY via serial cable, I fully expected it to do nothing. But to my surprise, it generates a continuous stream of Js (punctuated by the odd H) on the PUTTY screen if the RECV switch is off. If I hit Break, it generates a whole bunch of Bs. If I switch the RECV switch ON, the Js stop but I can still generate Bs with the Break key. One thing I'm wondering now that I've switched power supplies and the video situation isn't cleared up.. I'm wondering if this thing was set up to connect to a composite monitor at all? I've seen pictures of the CT1024 with a Sanyo monitor just like mine.. but on the Sanyo it does the same thing it does on all the others. Anyway, thoughts/ideas welcome. Would love to get this thing running again. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 15:55:29 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:55:29 -0400 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <134BE38BA6AD4E0CAA5D58A63F73C991@310e2> Often you have to press RETURN or SPACE a few times to wake up the serial connection and set the baud rate; if you put a scope on the RX and TX lines, do you see the incoming signal from the terminal and does anything get sent back? Can you trace the RX and TX signals to see what chips are used to convert RS-232 to TTL? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 4:37 PM Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Thanks Henk, I tried that. No prompt comes up with PUTTY on serial set at any baud rate. Instead on the LED display I get a C, or an S sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 8:27 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this thing. As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it and use it? --------- >From all the SBCs that I know, the standard serial port is always active. The on-board monitor with very basic commands uses it as only means of communication. After reset the monitor will "print" possible a one-line identification and on the next line some form of prompt. Could be * or . or > or - or whatever. You need to know the com ports settings, but it prints an ID line you can try several baudrates. 9600 is a good start. If you want 6800 info, ask. I can dream 6800 opcodes! INX=$08, LDA # =$86, DEX=$09, STAindexed =$A6. etc. Depending on the RAM size, I have a StarTrek version in 6800 assembler that uses a serial port ... IIRC, it is some 1.5k - Henk ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 16:15:07 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:15:07 -0700 Subject: SWTPC CT1024 In-Reply-To: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> References: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <036301d10857$bc075870$34160950$@yahoo.ca> Side note.. I found some CT-1024 documentation online and it suggested 110 baud. So I set it at that.. it generates nothing but the occasional 8 now. I'm interested to see how much of my issue is RAM... I've suspected RAM from the start with a lot of this and have some NOS MM2102N chips coming to try out. I'm assuming I can piggyback those and see if we get anywhere. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 1:49 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: SWTPC CT1024 While I was fooling around with my ASCI I decided to test the serial connection to my PC. The only thing I had available was my CT-1024 terminal with the optional serial board. This unit never worked when I got it. Thought it was its ancient and probably non functional PSU, but after hooking it up to a bench PSU same issues: 1) Unstable video display with large whitish band in the middle. 2) No response to keypresses. 3) Field of blinking ? marks if cursor is switched off, garbled one line of random characters up top if switched on. When I connected it to my PC running PUTTY via serial cable, I fully expected it to do nothing. But to my surprise, it generates a continuous stream of Js (punctuated by the odd H) on the PUTTY screen if the RECV switch is off. If I hit Break, it generates a whole bunch of Bs. If I switch the RECV switch ON, the Js stop but I can still generate Bs with the Break key. One thing I'm wondering now that I've switched power supplies and the video situation isn't cleared up.. I'm wondering if this thing was set up to connect to a composite monitor at all? I've seen pictures of the CT1024 with a Sanyo monitor just like mine.. but on the Sanyo it does the same thing it does on all the others. Anyway, thoughts/ideas welcome. Would love to get this thing running again. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 16:19:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:19:40 -0700 Subject: SWTPC CT1024 In-Reply-To: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> References: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <562169EC.4060607@sydex.com> On 10/16/2015 01:48 PM, Brad wrote: > When I connected it to my PC running PUTTY via serial cable, I fully > expected it to do nothing. But to my surprise, it generates a > continuous stream of Js (punctuated by the odd H) on the PUTTY screen > if the RECV switch is off. If I hit Break, it generates a whole > bunch of Bs. If I switch the RECV switch ON, the Js stop but I can > still generate Bs with the Break key. It sounds like it's time to get the old 'scope out and check the UART clock signal (do you have the TR1602 or the AY-3-1013?) and also the -12V at the chip. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 16:22:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:22:01 -0700 Subject: SWTPC CT1024 In-Reply-To: <036301d10857$bc075870$34160950$@yahoo.ca> References: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> <036301d10857$bc075870$34160950$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <56216A79.2080501@sydex.com> On 10/16/2015 02:15 PM, Brad wrote: > Side note.. I found some CT-1024 documentation online and it > suggested 110 baud. So I set it at that.. it generates nothing but > the occasional 8 now. > > I'm interested to see how much of my issue is RAM... I've suspected > RAM from the start with a lot of this and have some NOS MM2102N chips > coming to try out. I'm assuming I can piggyback those and see if we > get anywhere. My CT1024 kit shipped with 6 sockets for those chips on the memory board. The chips themselves came in a foil-wrapped package. So your board is un-socketed? --Chuck From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 16:28:54 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:28:54 -0700 Subject: SWTPC CT1024 In-Reply-To: <56216A79.2080501@sydex.com> References: <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> <036301d10857$bc075870$34160950$@yahoo.ca> <56216A79.2080501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <036501d10859$a931cda0$fb9568e0$@yahoo.ca> Definitely not socketed. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SWTPC CT1024 On 10/16/2015 02:15 PM, Brad wrote: > Side note.. I found some CT-1024 documentation online and it suggested > 110 baud. So I set it at that.. it generates nothing but the > occasional 8 now. > > I'm interested to see how much of my issue is RAM... I've suspected > RAM from the start with a lot of this and have some NOS MM2102N chips > coming to try out. I'm assuming I can piggyback those and see if we > get anywhere. My CT1024 kit shipped with 6 sockets for those chips on the memory board. The chips themselves came in a foil-wrapped package. So your board is un-socketed? --Chuck ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 16 16:34:12 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:34:12 +0200 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. In-Reply-To: <56215422.4080506@gmail.com> References: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> <56215422.4080506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05439b1607a0b8ac2aa2796a679ac937@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Paul, I'll look for it tomorrow. Shall we continue this off-list. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Paul Berger" Verzonden: ?16-?10-?2015 21:47 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Onderwerp: Re: Processor card for a HP 9835. Hi Rik, As near as I can tell the connections are good, but I am pretty sure it is the CPU, the key had fallen out of the monitor cable and I accidentally plugged it in backwards, and when I turned it I almost immediately noticed the smell of magic smoke escaping. The +12V regulator was wrecked, both the 723 and its pass transistor plus a couple burned foil traces on the power supply board. I have repaired the power supply and all the voltages are good now, the clock input to the CPU is good, however the clock outputs are dead, and I do not see any evidence of life from the CPU. From checking after disconnecting everything it appears that the +12V output went up to more than twice its rated level. I also fear for the ROMs in the machine but I can fix that as I had already designed a ROM card for option ROMs that I could easily modify for the system ROMs. I am still evaluating the full extent of the damage. Paul. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 16 16:37:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:37:02 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56216DFE.9050606@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-16 20:43, Joe wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben >> Sent: 2015-10-15 12:04 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: PDP8 / ETOS >> >> >> .DIR >> HELP >> ADVNT >> !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! > > Funny, that was my original mission, to get ADVENT running on timeshare. > > Great minds think alike! Multos8 won't timeshare it either. Of course not. Nothing will. FRTS runs with interrupts on. When running under timesharing, you do not have access to the hardware at that level. With a slight reservation, though. I seem to have some vague memory of FRTS being able to run under RTS-8, if you emulate the FPP8. But my memory might be wrong... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 16:39:10 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:39:10 -0300 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. In-Reply-To: <05439b1607a0b8ac2aa2796a679ac937@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> References: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> <56215422.4080506@gmail.com> <05439b1607a0b8ac2aa2796a679ac937@smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net> Message-ID: <56216E7E.1030103@gmail.com> Rik, Yes off-list will be good, and thanks for responding and checking. Paul. On 2015-10-16 6:34 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Paul, > > I'll look for it tomorrow. > Shall we continue this off-list. > > -Rik > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: "Paul Berger" > Verzonden: ?16-?10-?2015 21:47 > Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Onderwerp: Re: Processor card for a HP 9835. > > Hi Rik, > > As near as I can tell the connections are good, but I am pretty sure it > is the CPU, the key had fallen out of the monitor cable and I > accidentally plugged it in backwards, and when I turned it I almost > immediately noticed the smell of magic smoke escaping. The +12V > regulator was wrecked, both the 723 and its pass transistor plus a > couple burned foil traces on the power supply board. I have repaired > the power supply and all the voltages are good now, the clock input to > the CPU is good, however the clock outputs are dead, and I do not see > any evidence of life from the CPU. From checking after disconnecting > everything it appears that the +12V output went up to more than twice > its rated level. I also fear for the ROMs in the machine but I can fix > that as I had already designed a ROM card for option ROMs that I could > easily modify for the system ROMs. I am still evaluating the full extent > of the damage. > > Paul. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Oct 16 16:47:07 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:47:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:46:45 +0100" <004501d10832$40478130$c0d68390$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I tried to pry mine open, but it seemed that if I kept going I would end up > damaging it more than I would like. Do you have a picture of the opened > casing I could see? That would help me to see how best to open it. > Here you go: http://www.beyondthepale.ie/H7082-AB.jpg There was a row of locating pegs on each side of the lid (or base, depending on the way you look at it). The row on one side all broke off at the half way point with their other halves remaining stuck to the larger part of the box. They all remained intact on the the other side. I don't recall but the ones that broke may have been on the side I managed to separate first. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 16 17:35:39 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:35:39 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <006b01d10862$fc3b3190$f4b194b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 16 October 2015 22:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > I tried to pry mine open, but it seemed that if I kept going I would > > end up damaging it more than I would like. Do you have a picture of > > the opened casing I could see? That would help me to see how best to open it. > > > > Here you go: > > http://www.beyondthepale.ie/H7082-AB.jpg > > There was a row of locating pegs on each side of the lid (or base, depending on > the way you look at it). The row on one side all broke off at the half way point > with their other halves remaining stuck to the larger part of the box. > They all remained intact on the the other side. I don't recall but the ones that > broke may have been on the side I managed to separate first. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Thanks very much for this. Interesting that there is a fuse inside. You would think the casing would be designed to allow the fuse to be replaced somehow. Regards Rob From scaron at umich.edu Fri Oct 16 13:17:39 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:17:39 -0400 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Brad, I have a MEK6800 so not quite the same board but I know a little bit about 6800s ... I would suggest referring back to the original publications from Mot ... there is a M6800 Applications Manual and a M6800 Programming Manual ... those are canonical and you should be able to find both on Bitsavers ... a nice "third party" book is "The 6800 Microprocessor" by Jack Quinn on Merrill press ... you should be able to find a copy cheap ... few bucks. Once you get into it a little bit, I think you'll find they're pretty friendly to interface and program ... I/O is all memory-mapped ... and you will appreciate having that extra accumulator and the 16-bit index register handy if you're used to playing with the 6502 ... :O Best, Sean On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the know > - > I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in > educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little about > assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have any of you > ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial connector on its > mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could patch it to one of my > terminals. > > > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to test it > and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip on it (there > are three of them actually) and one in the middle is marked 'BAD'. I > understand those handle peripherals. > > > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these that > gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere - wondered > if anyone had seen one in the wild. > > > > Brad > > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Oct 16 13:34:55 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:34:55 -0400 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: There has to be some support for it in the ROM ... otherwise it won't do anything ... and may in fact cause the system to behave strangely (having an uninitialized ACIA just sitting there on the bus) ... I'm fairly new at writing assembly code but I found it was a few hundred lines of code to implement a simple little monitor that could read strings from a serial line and echo them back (on 6502, for comparison's sake). I guess since this is a pre-built board, not something you made from scratch, this may have already been done for you :O If the board looks OK ... no shorts, etc ... might as well power it up with a tty and see what happens! Assuming there is an ACIA on board and it's wired to that port ... Best, Sean On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Brad wrote: > Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you > the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this > thing. > > As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer > like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you > usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it > and use it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > drlegendre . > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:06 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) > > The Heathkit ET-3400 (another SBC trainer) also used the M6800 CPU. Now I > realize that the two machines probably have fairly different ROMs, but > otherwise some of the 3400 materials / programs should cross-over to the > u68. It might even simply be a matter of translating ROM calls.. > > Anyway, I have a full set of docs for the ET-3400. If you're interested, I > can find a way to get a copy to you. > > -Bill > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Brad wrote: > > > Hey guys, > > > > > > > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the > > know > > - > > I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in > > educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little > > about assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have > > any of you ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial > > connector on its mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could > > patch it to one of my terminals. > > > > > > > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to > > test it and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip > > on it (there are three of them actually) and one in the middle is > > marked 'BAD'. I understand those handle peripherals. > > > > > > > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these > > that gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere > > - wondered if anyone had seen one in the wild. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 > > From paul.h.berger at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 13:59:06 2015 From: paul.h.berger at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:59:06 -0300 Subject: Processor card for a HP 9835. In-Reply-To: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <003a01d107f4$17bf4240$473dc6c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <562148FA.2000504@gmail.com> Hi Rik, I am pretty sure it is the CPU, the key had fallen out of the monitor cable and I accidentally plugged it in backwards, and when I turned it I almost immediately noticed the smell of magic smoke escaping. The +12V regulator was wrecked, both the 723 and its pass transistor plus a couple burned foil traces on the power supply board. I have repaired the power supply and all the voltages are good now, the clock input to the CPU is good, however the clock outputs are dead. I also fear for the ROMs in the machine but I can fix that as I had already designed a ROM card for option ROMs that I could easily modify for the system ROMs. Paul. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Oct 16 17:25:26 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:25:26 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: SWTPC CT1024 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:48:39 -0700" <035e01d10854$09b02970$1d107c50$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <01PRZX0RLP2W00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> > > While I was fooling around with my ASCI I decided to test the serial > connection to my PC. The only thing I had available was my CT-1024 terminal > with the optional serial board. This unit never worked when I got it. > Thought it was its ancient and probably non functional PSU, but after > hooking it up to a bench PSU same issues: > > > > 1) Unstable video display with large whitish band in the middle. > Could there be a bad smoothing or decoupling capacitor on a power line derived somewhere within the unit itself, maybe a one to two hundred or so volt supply to the video output stage coming from the horizontal output stage? (I've no experince of this terminal so this is just a shot in the dark.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Oct 16 17:45:05 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:45:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:35:39 +0100" <006b01d10862$fc3b3190$f4b194b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> > > Thanks very much for this. Interesting that there is a fuse inside. You > would think the casing would be designed to allow the fuse to be replaced > somehow. > That's not the original fuse either. I managed to blow that one when I was trying to find the original problem with the PSU. I was having a really bad day and I somehow managed to clip the scope ground lead onto the negative end of the rectified mains smoother instead of the negative of one of the output smoothers. The original fuse had wire ended caps pressed on to it and I was unable to get them off so I ended up soldering loops of wire around the replacement fuse instead. It looks like the case was originally designed to be held together with a single screw. Perhaps it was later decided that this was insufficient to keep it from coming apart and exposing dangerous voltages if dropped from a height and it was decided to glue it together instead? I can sort of see why it might not be a priority to make the fuse replacable. Firstly, someone might try to replace it with a 13A plug fuse. Secondly, if the fuse did blow, there would likely be other components damaged. Sadly, it might be cheaper to get a replacement unit from stock than to pay someone capable of repairing it properly and ensuring it's safety afterwards. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mark at markesystems.com Fri Oct 16 18:53:20 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:53:20 -0700 Subject: nut bars? ;) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Jay West" > Subject: nut bars? ;) <...> > Is there a modern source of nut bars that one could order with specific > thread size and # of holes (NEMA pattern)? Yeah, I know I'm being OCD and How about something from here? http://www.ebay.com/bhp/rack-rails I know they're not the floating-nut style you may have been thinking of, but they might work... ~~ Mark Moulding From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 16 19:16:23 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Oct 2015, Brad wrote: > Thanks Henk, > I tried that. No prompt comes up with PUTTY on serial set at any baud > rate. Instead on the LED display I get a C, or an S sometimes. Check for activity on lines 2 and 3, if it is a DB25. You have not yet confirmed that you have it cabled correctly (DTE?, DCE? null-modem?) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 20:12:22 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:12:22 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-16, at 9:16 AM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the know - > I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was used in > educational environments. I kind of have it running but know little about > assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. Have any of you > ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial connector on its > mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could patch it to one of my > terminals. > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to test it > and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip on it (there > are three of them actually) and one in the middle is marked 'BAD'. I > understand those handle peripherals. > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these that > gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere - wondered > if anyone had seen one in the wild. I'm not acquainted with this model, but found pic here: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=758 Too bad the pic is so small, can't make out much. Looks like a pretty buffed out microproc trainer system, but such things were getting a little passe by 1979, at least if that was a new design for the 6800. Motorola was producing a similar thing in the form of the MEK6800 3 or more years earlier (Motorola Evalution Kit 6800, with hex keypad and LED display). Having the keypad and LED hex display there, it's native mode is likely to be running a monitor operated through that keypad & display. What one would expect is to be able to enter machine language into memory via the keypad and then jump to it to execute. All sorts of things are possible. It could be using their own monitor, it could be using a modified version of JBUG (moto's monitor for the MEK6800), or MikBUG, it could have moto's serial line monitor in ROM which might be a switch config option or you jump to via the keypad and then control it from a console terminal, it might have routines for IO to the serial line in ROM, and so on. You can anticipate one of the 6821s will be for IO control of the keypad/hex display, one of them is probably general purpose IO lines out to one of those connectors. If there is no 6850 or other UART, the third 6821 may be for a bit-banged serial line, as moto had routines for doing that going back to their early monitor and evaluation boards (which I never understood - it was more trouble than just using their own 6850 UART). A closeup pic could be a little more informative. (I have some degree of experience with the 6800: written assorted assembly programs for the 6800 going back to hand assembled programs for a moto evaluation board in 1978, have a SWTPC 6800, and a MEK6800). From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Oct 16 18:14:37 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:14:37 -0400 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) In-Reply-To: <74D4164D-049A-41F4-82D1-4DC0475B73CF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <74D4164D-049A-41F4-82D1-4DC0475B73CF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20151016231437.GA21687@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:02:26PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Oct-14, at 3:40 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > Eventually, we?d like to find or construct some solution for > mass storage, but we?re still at the point of checking out the VT278 itself. > If you haven't seen them these may be of use. http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/ (Doesn't have decmate support though shouldn't be too hard to get to work with the printer port) https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver > Found some more info about SETUP mode in the Decmate System > Architecture manual. Between the idiosyncrasies, I'm beginning to wonder > if there's something funny going on in the keyboard scanning sequence > or keyboard management from the 278, we'll have to investigate the > keyboard communication in more detail. > I pulled mine out and it seems to do the first couple things in that manual. If you want me to do to specific tests I can. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 21:30:36 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:30:36 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <038501d10883$ced94ae0$6c8be0a0$@yahoo.ca> Here's some detail shots of the unit (including two of the front and back of the mainboard). Note the 6821 in the middle that has 'BAD' scratched into it. Front: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191325_zpscaec0 dg8.jpg.html http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191426_zpsmagz2 dcc.jpg.html Back: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192343_zpsdgtag rl1.jpg.html Keypad: http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192440_zpsioiku zdu.jpg.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 6:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) On 2015-Oct-16, at 9:16 AM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > Posting this to various forums in the hopes of finding someone in the > know - I have this ASCI u68 system (6800 cpu) that I understand was > used in educational environments. I kind of have it running but know > little about assembly language programming, etc. Or the unit itself. > Have any of you ever messed with these? It looks like it has a serial > connector on its mainboard.. was trying to figure out a way if I could > patch it to one of my terminals. > > Also trying to find some simple 6800 assembly programs/routines to > test it and see if it really works properly. There is an MC6821S chip > on it (there are three of them actually) and one in the middle is > marked 'BAD'. I understand those handle peripherals. > > I'd also heard rumours there was a second board available for these > that gave them BASIC. I've never seen such a board for sale anywhere > - wondered if anyone had seen one in the wild. I'm not acquainted with this model, but found pic here: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=758 Too bad the pic is so small, can't make out much. Looks like a pretty buffed out microproc trainer system, but such things were getting a little passe by 1979, at least if that was a new design for the 6800. Motorola was producing a similar thing in the form of the MEK6800 3 or more years earlier (Motorola Evalution Kit 6800, with hex keypad and LED display). Having the keypad and LED hex display there, it's native mode is likely to be running a monitor operated through that keypad & display. What one would expect is to be able to enter machine language into memory via the keypad and then jump to it to execute. All sorts of things are possible. It could be using their own monitor, it could be using a modified version of JBUG (moto's monitor for the MEK6800), or MikBUG, it could have moto's serial line monitor in ROM which might be a switch config option or you jump to via the keypad and then control it from a console terminal, it might have routines for IO to the serial line in ROM, and so on. You can anticipate one of the 6821s will be for IO control of the keypad/hex display, one of them is probably general purpose IO lines out to one of those connectors. If there is no 6850 or other UART, the third 6821 may be for a bit-banged serial line, as moto had routines for doing that going back to their early monitor and evaluation boards (which I never understood - it was more trouble than just using their own 6850 UART). A closeup pic could be a little more informative. (I have some degree of experience with the 6800: written assorted assembly programs for the 6800 going back to hand assembled programs for a moto evaluation board in 1978, have a SWTPC 6800, and a MEK6800). ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Oct 16 22:03:51 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:03:51 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> At 02:43 PM 10/16/2015, Joe wrote: > > .DIR > > HELP > > ADVNT > > !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! > >Funny, that was my original mission, to get ADVENT running on timeshare. > >Great minds think alike! Multos8 won't timeshare it either. That would be quite impressive it it actually worked. Does ETOS support FORTRAN programs, with the FRTS handling interrupts et al? That would be pretty amazing stack of emulators: SIMH emulating a PDP-8, running ETOS emulating OS/8, running FRTS emulating a FPP-12, executing FPP code to finally run Adventure. :) I don't think that's ever going to work. :) -Rick From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 23:40:37 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:40:37 -0700 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) In-Reply-To: <20151016231437.GA21687@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <74D4164D-049A-41F4-82D1-4DC0475B73CF@cs.ubc.ca> <20151016231437.GA21687@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <16F33686-2FCE-403C-9F01-151D200A80E6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-16, at 4:14 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:02:26PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2015-Oct-14, at 3:40 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > >> Eventually, we?d like to find or construct some solution for >> mass storage, but we?re still at the point of checking out the VT278 itself. >> > If you haven't seen them these may be of use. > http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/ > > (Doesn't have decmate support though shouldn't be too hard to get to > work with the printer port) > https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver > >> Found some more info about SETUP mode in the Decmate System >> Architecture manual. Between the idiosyncrasies, I'm beginning to wonder >> if there's something funny going on in the keyboard scanning sequence >> or keyboard management from the 278, we'll have to investigate the >> keyboard communication in more detail. >> > I pulled mine out and it seems to do the first couple things in that > manual. If you want me to do to specific tests I can. Pressing 2 & 3 do something, 2 causes the system to go away - presumably looking for the disks; 3 causes a flashing cursor/underbar across the screen - presumably the 'print screen' scan, other operations don't work. Thanks, I don't think we need more specific tests until we've investigated the keyboard communication. I was looking at the VT100 tech manual (we're using a VT100 keyboard) and the keyboard signalling is quite complex, there's a fair bit that might go wrong there on either end that might subtly interfere with the keycodes, or the scan sequence might be messed up in some idiosyncratic way. Yes, Rob had found the chdickman RX02 emulator and if other things work out, I think the plan will be to adapt it for the decmate. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 16 23:46:23 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:46:23 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <038501d10883$ced94ae0$6c8be0a0$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> <038501d10883$ced94ae0$6c8be0a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On 2015-Oct-16, at 7:30 PM, Brad wrote: > Here's some detail shots of the unit (including two of the front and back of > the mainboard). Note the 6821 in the middle that has 'BAD' scratched into > it. > > Front: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191325_zpscaec0dg8.jpg.html > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191426_zpsmagz2dcc.jpg.html > > Back: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192343_zpsdgtagrl1.jpg.html > > Keypad: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192440_zpsioikuzdu.jpg.html From what can be readily discerned, with some presumption, in functional not numeric order: IC26 6875 clock generator IC22 68B00 processor . . obviously IC7 TBP18S22 PROM 256*8 probably for address mapping of the RAM / ROM / IO. IC19 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) firmware/monitor ROM IC18 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) optional ROM IC16 6514 SRAM 1024*4 IC17 6514 SRAM 1024*4 1 KBytes of RAM IC30 6821 IO 2*8+4 IC31 6821 IO 2*8+4 IO to the keypad & LED display. It looks like the hex-to-7-seg decoding is done in software, over on the kbd/display PCB is a CA3082 7*NPN-tran, presumably used as LED drivers. One of the chips is masked by the photoflash. IC29 6821 IO 2*8+4 Goes to connector P1, just GPIO pins to play with. IC15 6850 UART IC13 1489 RS232 receiver IC28 75150 line driver IC25 4702 bit-rate generator Comprise a serial line interface. Not clear how the bit-rate is set, I'm guessing the rate selection pins of the 4702 are fed by IC14 74175 latch, fed in turn from IO pins on IC30, so the baud rate would be be under programmatic control. IC27 555 timer Not clear what that's for, might be an oscillator/timer for kbd/display scanning, feeding into IC30 or 31. The remaining chips are bus drivers and a little glue logic. -- It's pretty straightforward for what it is. Date codes of 1981, but the support for 2708 and 2716 EPROMs suggest the design is a few years earlier. As IC30, the bad 6821, is involved in the keyboard/display you might try pulling it and replacing it with IC29. If you want to be particular, pull it and check for bad voltages and current limits on the IO pins before plugging in a sub. The expectation if it's running properly is that you'd press a key for a command followed by hex address or data, e.g. EXAMine, enter the address XXXX, displayed as entered, memory contents displayed on entering 4th address digit. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 16 23:59:24 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:59:24 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> <038501d10883$ced94ae0$6c8be0a0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <039a01d10898$98270400$c8750c00$@yahoo.ca> Thanks so much Brent! Your insight on the 6821 proved to make this thing run way better! Swapping 29 and 30, the system 'boots up' consistently and properly. Before, you'd hit reset and then any key and it might come up or it might not, or it might generate weird messages and then go dark. Now it comes up every time. I connected the RS232 again and tried bauds between 110 and 9600 but no dice. I'm assuming bits, parity etc are all standard.. hrmmm. Curious now. Wish a manual still existed somewhere. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) On 2015-Oct-16, at 7:30 PM, Brad wrote: > Here's some detail shots of the unit (including two of the front and > back of the mainboard). Note the 6821 in the middle that has 'BAD' > scratched into it. > > Front: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191325_zp > scaec0dg8.jpg.html > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191426_zp > smagz2dcc.jpg.html > > Back: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192343_zp > sdgtagrl1.jpg.html > > Keypad: > http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192440_zp > sioikuzdu.jpg.html >From what can be readily discerned, with some presumption, in functional not numeric order: IC26 6875 clock generator IC22 68B00 processor . . obviously IC7 TBP18S22 PROM 256*8 probably for address mapping of the RAM / ROM / IO. IC19 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) firmware/monitor ROM IC18 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) optional ROM IC16 6514 SRAM 1024*4 IC17 6514 SRAM 1024*4 1 KBytes of RAM IC30 6821 IO 2*8+4 IC31 6821 IO 2*8+4 IO to the keypad & LED display. It looks like the hex-to-7-seg decoding is done in software, over on the kbd/display PCB is a CA3082 7*NPN-tran, presumably used as LED drivers. One of the chips is masked by the photoflash. IC29 6821 IO 2*8+4 Goes to connector P1, just GPIO pins to play with. IC15 6850 UART IC13 1489 RS232 receiver IC28 75150 line driver IC25 4702 bit-rate generator Comprise a serial line interface. Not clear how the bit-rate is set, I'm guessing the rate selection pins of the 4702 are fed by IC14 74175 latch, fed in turn from IO pins on IC30, so the baud rate would be be under programmatic control. IC27 555 timer Not clear what that's for, might be an oscillator/timer for kbd/display scanning, feeding into IC30 or 31. The remaining chips are bus drivers and a little glue logic. -- It's pretty straightforward for what it is. Date codes of 1981, but the support for 2708 and 2716 EPROMs suggest the design is a few years earlier. As IC30, the bad 6821, is involved in the keyboard/display you might try pulling it and replacing it with IC29. If you want to be particular, pull it and check for bad voltages and current limits on the IO pins before plugging in a sub. The expectation if it's running properly is that you'd press a key for a command followed by hex address or data, e.g. EXAMine, enter the address XXXX, displayed as entered, memory contents displayed on entering 4th address digit. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 17 00:33:12 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:33:12 -0700 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <039a01d10898$98270400$c8750c00$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <1B42A90C-A5D0-4C28-9E7B-8F3274536ED1@cs.ubc.ca> <038501d10883$ced94ae0$6c8be0a0$@yahoo.ca> <039a01d10898$98270400$c8750c00$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: My guess is the RS232 is not involved in the initial-boot monitor, I wouldn't necessarily be expecting anything from it at reset. At this point I'd be aiming to figure out the keypad/display operation. The firmware EPROM likely maps to the upper 2K of address space as the reset vector is at FFFE,FFFF. EXAMining the contents of those two bytes (big-endian order) may produce an address in the range F8xx-FFxx, the entry point to the monitor. If that pans out and the memory contents in that range look suitably random or differentiated then it would affirm the ROM is in that range. Or poke around with EXAMine to try to locate the RAM, then figure out the command to load RAM, and EXAMine it to see if you can get back what you entered. There was a bunch of writing on a cover plate which could be seen but not discerned in a photo, was that perhaps a command structure for the keypad? If you can load RAM, you can enter and execute a program that modifies memory, but you'll need to know the memory map in more detail to do IO. Could figure out the address mapping for the IO by experimentation and inference from the 18S22, some reverse engineering around the 18S22 would help. Or there's dumping and disassembling the monitor EPROM which might turn up IO addresses, perhaps routines for character IO, maybe a console monitor or a serial-line download routine, etc. On 2015-Oct-16, at 9:59 PM, Brad wrote: > Thanks so much Brent! Your insight on the 6821 proved to make this thing > run way better! Swapping 29 and 30, the system 'boots up' consistently and > properly. Before, you'd hit reset and then any key and it might come up or > it might not, or it might generate weird messages and then go dark. Now it > comes up every time. > > I connected the RS232 again and tried bauds between 110 and 9600 but no > dice. I'm assuming bits, parity etc are all standard.. hrmmm. Curious now. > Wish a manual still existed somewhere. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:46 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) > > On 2015-Oct-16, at 7:30 PM, Brad wrote: > >> Here's some detail shots of the unit (including two of the front and >> back of the mainboard). Note the 6821 in the middle that has 'BAD' >> scratched into it. >> >> Front: >> http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191325_zp >> scaec0dg8.jpg.html >> http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_191426_zp >> smagz2dcc.jpg.html >> >> Back: >> http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192343_zp >> sdgtagrl1.jpg.html >> >> Keypad: >> http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/media/20151016_192440_zp >> sioikuzdu.jpg.html > > >> From what can be readily discerned, with some presumption, in functional not > numeric order: > > IC26 6875 clock generator > > IC22 68B00 processor > . . obviously > > IC7 TBP18S22 PROM 256*8 > probably for address mapping of the RAM / ROM / IO. > > IC19 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) > firmware/monitor ROM > > IC18 2716 EPROM 2K*8 (or 2708 1K*8, note jumpers) > optional ROM > > IC16 6514 SRAM 1024*4 > IC17 6514 SRAM 1024*4 > 1 KBytes of RAM > > IC30 6821 IO 2*8+4 > IC31 6821 IO 2*8+4 > IO to the keypad & LED display. > It looks like the hex-to-7-seg decoding is done in software, > over on the kbd/display PCB is a CA3082 7*NPN-tran, presumably > used as LED drivers. One of the chips is masked by the photoflash. > > IC29 6821 IO 2*8+4 > Goes to connector P1, just GPIO pins to play with. > > IC15 6850 UART > IC13 1489 RS232 receiver > IC28 75150 line driver > IC25 4702 bit-rate generator > Comprise a serial line interface. > Not clear how the bit-rate is set, I'm guessing the rate selection > pins of the 4702 > are fed by IC14 74175 latch, fed in turn from IO pins on IC30, so > the baud rate would be > be under programmatic control. > > IC27 555 timer > Not clear what that's for, might be an oscillator/timer for > kbd/display scanning, > feeding into IC30 or 31. > > The remaining chips are bus drivers and a little glue logic. > > -- > > It's pretty straightforward for what it is. > Date codes of 1981, but the support for 2708 and 2716 EPROMs suggest the > design is a few years earlier. > > As IC30, the bad 6821, is involved in the keyboard/display you might try > pulling it and replacing it with IC29. > If you want to be particular, pull it and check for bad voltages and current > limits on the IO pins before plugging in a sub. > > The expectation if it's running properly is that you'd press a key for a > command followed by hex address or data, e.g. EXAMine, enter the address > XXXX, displayed as entered, memory contents displayed on entering 4th > address digit. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 17 01:15:45 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:15:45 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> References: <01da01d10510$54aaf280$fe00d780$@yahoo.com> <20151015003823.GA8845@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <561FEA8D.5070503@jetnet.ab.ca> <004d01d10842$7e7733a0$7b659ae0$@yahoo.com> <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <5621E791.5030100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/16/2015 9:03 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 02:43 PM 10/16/2015, Joe wrote: >> > .DIR >> > HELP >> > ADVNT >> > !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE! >> >> Funny, that was my original mission, to get ADVENT running on timeshare. >> >> Great minds think alike! Multos8 won't timeshare it either. > > That would be quite impressive it it actually worked. > Does ETOS support FORTRAN programs, with the FRTS handling interrupts et > al? > > That would be pretty amazing stack of emulators: > SIMH emulating a PDP-8, running ETOS emulating OS/8, running FRTS > emulating a FPP-12, executing FPP code to finally run Adventure. :) > > I don't think that's ever going to work. :) > -Rick > And simh is running virtual under windows... From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 03:10:03 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:10:03 +0200 Subject: ASCI u68 (SystemX) In-Reply-To: <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> References: <030201d1082e$096951b0$1c3bf510$@yahoo.ca> <034101d10840$5cfeb2e0$16fc18a0$@yahoo.ca> <035d01d10852$8a01a880$9e04f980$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: OK. Did you post a link to some pictures? That can be helpful, I missed the link if you did post it. The picture can help in understanding what you have. I already know it has the 6800 :-) and three 6821 PIAs. Is there also a 6850 ACIA on board? Do you have some documentation? It could well be possible that all you have after power up is the keypad and 7-segment displays as on the MEK6800D2. Check the power supply on the M6800 CPU. If you have a scope you can check for activiy on the address and data pins, and the "phi2" pin and VMA pin. I f we get further I probably need to get the M6800 user manual on my desk. - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 10:37 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Thanks Henk, I tried that. No prompt comes up with PUTTY on serial set at any baud rate. Instead on the LED display I get a C, or an S sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ASCI u68 (SystemX) -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Brad Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 8:27 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ASCI u68 (SystemX) Many thanks. I'll take a quick look online just to see if I can save you the trouble. I'm surprised at how little documentation there is for this thing. As a general rule, does anyone know -- if you have a single board computer like this with serial connector, is that 'live' all the time? Or do you usually have to invoke a program in order for a terminal to connect to it and use it? --------- >From all the SBCs that I know, the standard serial port is always active. The on-board monitor with very basic commands uses it as only means of communication. After reset the monitor will "print" possible a one-line identification and on the next line some form of prompt. Could be * or . or > or - or whatever. You need to know the com ports settings, but it prints an ID line you can try several baudrates. 9600 is a good start. If you want 6800 info, ask. I can dream 6800 opcodes! INX=$08, LDA # =$86, DEX=$09, STAindexed =$A6. etc. Depending on the RAM size, I have a StarTrek version in 6800 assembler that uses a serial port ... IIRC, it is some 1.5k - Henk ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 07:04:34 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 14:04:34 +0200 Subject: Atari Unix Message-ID: Apparently efforts are underway to get this unreleased product working. I believe it was aimed at the TT030 desktop "workstation" model of the ST family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TT030 Atari did licence UNIX? and got a really good deal ? $10 a seat! http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/18/the-atari-st-could-have-run-unix/ ? But the original 68000 version couldn't hack it. No MMU. http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1383 The product did eventually exist: http://www.atariunix.com/ But as ever it was too little, too late. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 08:06:16 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 14:06:16 +0100 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022601d108dc$9c15b270$d4411750$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam > Proven > Sent: 17 October 2015 13:05 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Atari Unix > > Apparently efforts are underway to get this unreleased product working. > > I believe it was aimed at the TT030 desktop "workstation" model of the ST > family: > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TT030 > > > Atari did licence UNIX? and got a really good deal ? $10 a seat! > > > http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/18/the-atari-st-could-have-run-unix/ > > > ? But the original 68000 version couldn't hack it. No MMU. > > > http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1383 > > > The product did eventually exist: > > > http://www.atariunix.com/ > > > But as ever it was too little, too late. > Perhaps also "too expensive"? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 17 09:01:13 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Apparently efforts are underway to get this unreleased product working. > I believe it was aimed at the TT030 desktop "workstation" model of the > ST family: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_TT030 > Atari did licence UNIX? and got a really good deal ? $10 a seat! > http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/18/the-atari-st-could-have-run-unix/ > ? But the original 68000 version couldn't hack it. No MMU. > http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1383 > The product did eventually exist: > http://www.atariunix.com/ > But as ever it was too little, too late. I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out there? I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has a VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board installed. I think it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST softwar,e has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST keyboard, and has real SCSI versus ACSI! Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO but still interesting! -- Ethan O'Toole From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 09:18:48 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:18:48 +0200 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <022601d108dc$9c15b270$d4411750$@gmail.com> References: <022601d108dc$9c15b270$d4411750$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2015 at 15:06, Dave G4UGM wrote: > Perhaps also "too expensive"? AIUI Atari UNIX never shipped as a product, so that?s academic; nobody knows what they would have charged. I?m not sure about this, though. But the ?big 3? alternative home computer platforms of the 1980s all offered a UNIX ? Acorn RISC-iX, Commodore Amiga UNIX and Atari UNIX. None caught on ? they were vastly expensive for home users, and the machines were seen as toys by professionals using SUN workstations and so on. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 09:19:17 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:19:17 +0200 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 October 2015 at 16:01, wrote: > I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out there? > > I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has a VME > slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board installed. I think > it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST softwar,e has > VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST keyboard, and has real SCSI > versus ACSI! > > Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO but still > interesting! Er, possible crossed wires here. The TT shipped, sure. It?s Atari UNIX that I /think/ did not. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 09:26:53 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:26:53 +0100 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam > Proven > Sent: 17 October 2015 15:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Atari Unix > > On 17 October 2015 at 16:01, wrote: > > I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out there? > > > > I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has > > a VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board > > installed. I think it has a modem port. That is an AppleTalk port. >> I know it's not compatible > > with normal ST software It is not compatible with games software that relies on running on an 8Mhz 68000 or has other hardware dependencies. Much of the business software still works fine. > > has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses > > an ST keyboard, and has real SCSI versus ACSI! > > The "real SCSI" is still somewhat broken and very temperamental. > > Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO but > > still interesting! > > Er, possible crossed wires here. > > The TT shipped, sure. > > It?s Atari UNIX that I /think/ did not. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 17 09:10:29 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:10:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151017141029.GA15021@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 08:32:49PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: > > What exactly do you mean by 'glitches'? Are these on a TTL level signal, > > an analogue > > output of the read amplifer, or what? > > > > You can see the logic analyzer trace of many of the TC12 signals here. > > > The labels at the far left of the image include the backplane slot and pin > number for the probe location. The signals were TTL level by the time the > logic analyzer saw them. > Have you hooked up a digital scope to the read amplifier and seen if the analog waveform has problems when the glitches occur? Seeing both the analog and the digital output would help see where the signal is going wrong. The other is if you have enough memory and channels in your test equipment you can trigger off a signal indicating that the block number was missed then look back to see how the block number was wrong. If you have it a trigger out from the logic analizer can trigger a digital scope to capture at the same time to see the head amplifier signal. From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Oct 17 11:30:17 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:30:17 -0500 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> References: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151017163016.GA4931@lonesome.com> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 03:26:53PM +0100, Dave G4UGM wrote: > The "real SCSI" is still somewhat broken and very temperamental. As someone who used to make a living working on VMEbus equipment ... ... if a machine has a VMEbus slot, that description usually applies. In particular, never assume that multiple bus masters can exist on the same backplane. I fought that battle with a Solbourne. Conclusion: it was fine to add in one of our peripheral boards but that was it. They had never even implemented the hard parts of the spec. mcl From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 12:23:14 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 18:23:14 +0100 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <20151017163016.GA4931@lonesome.com> References: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> <20151017163016.GA4931@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <008101d10900$81a020a0$84e061e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Linimon > Sent: 17 October 2015 17:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Atari Unix > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 03:26:53PM +0100, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > The "real SCSI" is still somewhat broken and very temperamental. > > As someone who used to make a living working on VMEbus equipment ... > > ... if a machine has a VMEbus slot, that description usually applies. > In particular, never assume that multiple bus masters can exist on the same > backplane. > > I fought that battle with a Solbourne. Conclusion: it was fine to add in one of > our peripheral boards but that was it. They had never even implemented > the hard parts of the spec. > > mcl I think the only use I ever saw for the slot in the Atari TT was for Video cards. My TT had one, but it needed extra software to drive it... Dave From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 17 12:16:54 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:16:54 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <004b01d10842$56c30460$04490d20$@yahoo.com> References: <004b01d10842$56c30460$04490d20$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20151017171654.GA25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:41:56PM -0600, Joe wrote: > I found the .TIFF manual on another site, and PDF'd it. > Its on my site also http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=etos From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 17 12:22:50 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:22:50 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:03:51PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 02:43 PM 10/16/2015, Joe wrote: > > That would be quite impressive it it actually worked. > Does ETOS support FORTRAN programs, with the FRTS handling > interrupts et al? > It appears to have limited (to the point of probably not being useful) support. System users guide pg 4-10. Fortran IV. Real time functions and floating point processor functions are not currently supported. The internal device handlers for high speed reader/punch and card reader are not supported. Device independent I/O must be used to access these devices. I don't know if that means the floating point instrutions won't work but the software emulator fallback will or any attempt to use floating point will fail. From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Oct 17 12:29:39 2015 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 20:29:39 +0300 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <008101d10900$81a020a0$84e061e0$@gmail.com> References: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> <20151017163016.GA4931@lonesome.com> <008101d10900$81a020a0$84e061e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The RIebl ethernet card is working with ASV On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > > Linimon > > Sent: 17 October 2015 17:30 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Atari Unix > > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 03:26:53PM +0100, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > The "real SCSI" is still somewhat broken and very temperamental. > > > > As someone who used to make a living working on VMEbus equipment ... > > > > ... if a machine has a VMEbus slot, that description usually applies. > > In particular, never assume that multiple bus masters can exist on the > same > > backplane. > > > > I fought that battle with a Solbourne. Conclusion: it was fine to add in > one of > > our peripheral boards but that was it. They had never even implemented > > the hard parts of the spec. > > > > mcl > > > I think the only use I ever saw for the slot in the Atari TT was for Video > cards. My TT had one, but it needed extra software to drive it... > > Dave > > From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 17 12:58:37 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 13:58:37 -0400 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) In-Reply-To: <16F33686-2FCE-403C-9F01-151D200A80E6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <16F33686-2FCE-403C-9F01-151D200A80E6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20151017175837.GC25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 09:40:37PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Pressing 2 & 3 do something, 2 causes the system to go away - presumably > looking for the disks; 3 causes a flashing cursor/underbar across the > screen - presumably the 'print screen' scan, > other operations don't work. > I take it 9 to enter local then the setup key to exit setup where you then get local echo of keys on the CRT doesn't work. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 17 13:54:30 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 11:54:30 -0700 Subject: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience) In-Reply-To: <20151017175837.GC25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <16F33686-2FCE-403C-9F01-151D200A80E6@cs.ubc.ca> <20151017175837.GC25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <9566776E-4B25-489F-BD48-2AD16B2E6CE2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-17, at 10:58 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 09:40:37PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> Pressing 2 & 3 do something, 2 causes the system to go away - presumably >> looking for the disks; 3 causes a flashing cursor/underbar across the >> screen - presumably the 'print screen' scan, >> other operations don't work. >> > I take it 9 to enter local then the setup key to exit setup where you > then get local echo of keys on the CRT doesn't work. IIRC pressing 9 does not switch the LEDs from ONLINE to LOCAL as the doc says it should. We should try exiting setup at that point to see if we get local echo regardless (the hardware is at Rob's place at the moment so I can't check immediately.) Also IIRC, after pressing 2, "SETUP" disappears as it should, however there is no boot message, but CTL-SETUP does get us back to SETUP mode. The reason I want to check the keyboard communication/scanning is because is because in addition to the above where some keys seem to do what is expected while others don't, 3 keys out of all of them (?, M & SPACE) do not produce keyclicks. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:16:11 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 22:16:11 +0200 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help Message-ID: I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds the READY LED is lit. However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal settings match the settings for the NOVA. One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing and cannot localize that screw. I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? Thanks, - Henk From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Oct 17 16:06:05 2015 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 15:06:05 -0600 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5622B83D.6030106@Wild-Hare.com> I will reply off-list as usual... Bruce On 10/17/2015 2:16 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff > (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van > single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... > > Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There > was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. > After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard > drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the > hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and > the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! > The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the > hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the > NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. > > See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html > After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, > so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. > The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the > hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds > the READY LED is lit. > However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED > on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. > > On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has > the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), > but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the > floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy > disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine > starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. > > When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then > PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, > but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. > Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label > on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk > access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. > > As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins > where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the > terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins > for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal > that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal > settings match the settings for the NOVA. > > One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on > it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock > pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing > that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to > lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing > and cannot localize that screw. > I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... > > Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those > shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? > > Thanks, > - Henk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 17 16:50:18 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 22:50:18 +0100 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> Whilst I have no experience of DG systems I am familar with drives of that era. The red label is important. If you did not put the shipping locks in we must assume it travelled without. Thats not good. If the journey was not too bumpy then you may be ok. I have seen floppy drives with shipping locks but its not usual. So the floppy drive might be a good place to start. The drive may be fine but disks do not last forever. I would want to be sure the actual disk was ok. Does it have any kind of power on self test? As it appears that system does not boot nor do you get any out put on a terminal. (You do have a terminal attached) perhaps a good mechanical check of the floppy drive. Things like belts and rubber components are worth a look. Rod On 17/10/2015 21:16, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff > (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van > single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... > > Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There > was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. > After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard > drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the > hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and > the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! > The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the > hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the > NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. > > See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html > After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, > so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. > The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the > hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds > the READY LED is lit. > However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED > on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. > > On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has > the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), > but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the > floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy > disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine > starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. > > When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then > PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, > but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. > Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label > on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk > access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. > > As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins > where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the > terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins > for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal > that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal > settings match the settings for the NOVA. > > One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on > it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock > pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing > that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to > lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing > and cannot localize that screw. > I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... > > Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those > shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? > > Thanks, > - Henk From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 17 18:21:29 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 18:21:29 -0500 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout Message-ID: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of these oddball floppies. Picture at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the drive. I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for trade. J From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 17 18:30:16 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:30:16 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> On 10/17/2015 04:21 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full > of these oddball floppies. > > Picture at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > > They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge > rather than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes > inside the drive. > > I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available > for trade. Memorex 651 floppies: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/memorex/disc/651.60-05_651floppyOEM.pdf --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 17 21:59:59 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 19:59:59 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org>, <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: I think it was Wang that used the outside holes. Dwight > Subject: Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: cclist at sydex.com > Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:30:16 -0700 > > On 10/17/2015 04:21 PM, Jay West wrote: > > I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full > > of these oddball floppies. > > > > Picture at > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > > > > They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge > > rather than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes > > inside the drive. > > > > I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available > > for trade. > > Memorex 651 floppies: > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/memorex/disc/651.60-05_651floppyOEM.pdf > > --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Oct 18 04:58:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:58:51 +0200 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20151018095851.GA10074@Update.UU.SE> Quite a coincidence, Mattis showed me one of those just last week. Can't remember the system name though. A green terminal/micro computer combination. Perhaps Mattis will fill in the details. /P On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 06:21:29PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full of > these oddball floppies. > > Picture at > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > > They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge rather > than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes inside the > drive. > > I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available for > trade. > > J > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 05:00:03 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:00:03 +0200 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: s?ndag 18 oktober 2015 skrev dwight : > I think it was Wang that used the outside holes. > Dwight > > And the Incoterm intelligent terminals used them as well. http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/incoterm-spd-20-20 /Mattis > > Subject: Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird > cutout > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 16:30:16 -0700 > > > > On 10/17/2015 04:21 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > I have two "flippy organizers" (that's around 20 floppies each) full > > > of these oddball floppies. > > > > > > Picture at > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22020178558/in/dateposted/ > > > > > > They are 8", hard sectored, and the sectors are on the outer edge > > > rather than the hub, and there is an odd cutout on one edge that goes > > > inside the drive. > > > > > > I know I don't have a machine that uses these, so they are available > > > for trade. > > > > Memorex 651 floppies: > > > > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/memorex/disc/651.60-05_651floppyOEM.pdf > > > > --Chuck > From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Oct 18 05:37:01 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 06:37:01 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> At 01:22 PM 10/17/2015, David Gesswein wrote: >On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:03:51PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote: > >System users guide pg 4-10. Fortran IV. Real time functions and floating >point processor functions are not currently supported. The internal >device handlers for high speed reader/punch and card reader are not >supported. >Device independent I/O must be used to access these devices. > >I don't know if that means the floating point instrutions won't work but >the software emulator fallback will or any attempt to use floating >point will >fail. The Fortran IV compiler emits FPP code, so what that has to mean is that you can't use a hardware floating point unit and must use the built-in emulator. That makes sense, as the FPP code has built-in 15-bit addresses that won't get swizzled by the ETOS time-sharing option. Guess I'll try to get a round tuit and bring up ETOS on my PiDP-8 to see if it can be made to work. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Oct 18 07:37:04 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:37:04 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-18 12:37, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 01:22 PM 10/17/2015, David Gesswein wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:03:51PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote: >> >> System users guide pg 4-10. Fortran IV. Real time functions and floating >> point processor functions are not currently supported. The internal >> device handlers for high speed reader/punch and card reader are not >> supported. >> Device independent I/O must be used to access these devices. >> >> I don't know if that means the floating point instrutions won't work but >> the software emulator fallback will or any attempt to use floating >> point will >> fail. > > The Fortran IV compiler emits FPP code, so what that has to mean is that > you can't use a hardware floating point unit and must use the built-in > emulator. That makes sense, as the FPP code has built-in 15-bit > addresses that won't get swizzled by the ETOS time-sharing option. > > Guess I'll try to get a round tuit and bring up ETOS on my PiDP-8 to see > if it can be made to work. I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it actually is possible. To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in timesharing. First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all IOTs are trapped when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8 uses 15-bit addresses, which would make it impossible to use with virtual memory. Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode. However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under RTS-8, and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts. Also, since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do anything, FRTS actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8, even if you actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8 emulator in this situation. MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as well. Otherwise not. Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user mode, both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the 15-bit addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only allows memory accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any memory reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I think it could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from user mode, if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I lack the hardware. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From a13stesk at student.his.se Sun Oct 18 10:16:43 2015 From: a13stesk at student.his.se (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:16:43 +0200 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1445181403.7488.9.camel@student.his.se> l?r 2015-10-17 klockan 10:01 -0400 skrev ethan at 757.org: > I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out > there? > > I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has > a > VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board > installed. I > think it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST > softwar,e has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST > keyboard, > and has real SCSI versus ACSI! > > Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO > but > still interesting! > The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun 3/80 (and 280 too.) The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo. About the same resolution. Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990 ? From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Oct 18 10:26:11 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:26:11 +0200 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <1445181403.7488.9.camel@student.his.se> References: <1445181403.7488.9.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: <1445181971.7488.11.camel@agj.net> s?n 2015-10-18 klockan 17:16 +0200 skrev Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare): > The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun > 3/80 (and 280 too.) > The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo. > > About the same resolution. > > Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990 > ? I checked out the end customer/oem price list. Sun wanted 1988 4000 $ for a high resolution monitor with cable and board (bwtwo.) I would be surprised if a monitor only at that time was around 2000 $. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 10:32:54 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 10:32:54 -0500 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup Message-ID: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> OK, so it's sort-of computery. I snagged a JAMMA arcade board from a recycling pile a couple of days ago (this is an m68k-based early 90's board). Supposedly it's faulty, but I don't know the nature of the fault - maybe it's just RAM or a reset problem or something, so I figured I'd put a little bit of time into it. Anyway, I'm having a hard time finding details about the video output - I know it's negative composite sync (I got the manual, which says that much), and I *think* it's TTL levels (right?), but I'm not sure about frequencies. Then there's the RGB outputs - analog, but I'm not seeing anything that tells me peak voltages. I suppose the question is, what's the easiest display to try and hook this up to? I've monitors with an assortment of inputs (VGA, EGA, CGA, MDA, mono-composite), and I think there's a CRT TV kicking around that has a composite input too (and maybe S-video, not sure). It doesn't bother me if the quality's not great; I'm just interested in whatever's quickest to interface to at this stage, just to see if I can get something working. cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 18 10:41:18 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:41:18 -0700 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: Google "Super-Gun", as that's how you typically hook one up outside of an arcade cabinet. I think most arcade cabinets use CGA monitors. BTW, it looks like Component video has made its way to Super-Guns (I was at the "Portland Retro Game Expo" yesterday). If nothing else, you'll need a JAMMA harness so you can wire something up yourself. What board? There are sites out on the net with repair logs for some boards. Zane On Oct 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > OK, so it's sort-of computery. I snagged a JAMMA arcade board from a recycling pile a couple of days ago (this is an m68k-based early 90's board). Supposedly it's faulty, but I don't know the nature of the fault - maybe it's just RAM or a reset problem or something, so I figured I'd put a little bit of time into it. > > Anyway, I'm having a hard time finding details about the video output - I know it's negative composite sync (I got the manual, which says that much), and I *think* it's TTL levels (right?), but I'm not sure about frequencies. Then there's the RGB outputs - analog, but I'm not seeing anything that tells me peak voltages. > > I suppose the question is, what's the easiest display to try and hook this up to? I've monitors with an assortment of inputs (VGA, EGA, CGA, MDA, mono-composite), and I think there's a CRT TV kicking around that has a composite input too (and maybe S-video, not sure). It doesn't bother me if the quality's not great; I'm just interested in whatever's quickest to interface to at this stage, just to see if I can get something working. > > cheers > > Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 11:20:10 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:20:10 -0500 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> On 10/18/2015 10:41 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > Google "Super-Gun", as that's how you typically hook one up outside of > an arcade cabinet. Ah, totally overkill at this stage, though. > I think most arcade cabinets use CGA monitors. My guess is that it's most likely all TV-rate signaling, and so there might be a way of just throwing a handful of resistors into a pot (etc.) and getting a (poor-quality, perhaps!) signal out the other end that I can just feed into one of the displays that I have here. The JAMMA pinouts are readily available, so wiring for the controls isn't a problem - I'm just not finding anything that provides details about the video signal. > If nothing else, you'll need a JAMMA harness so you can wire something > up yourself. I've actually got some suitable edge connectors sitting in the junk pile (I don't have a 56-pin one, but a couple of butchered shorter ones side-by-side will do for testing). The manual that I obtained with the board lists the DIP switch settings for free play mode, so I don't think I need to worry about simulating coin boxes either (although I think those are just TTL inputs, so a couple of debounced switches would do). > What board? There are sites out on the net with repair logs for some > boards. It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same board with different firmware. cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 18 11:48:08 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 09:48:08 -0700 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50991D99-718D-43B1-BD7D-6438A0E4DD57@aracnet.com> On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same board with different firmware. If you can get it working, it should be a fun game! I love Aero Fighters 2 & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo. Looks like this page might have some details to help. Zane From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 11:48:24 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:48:24 +0200 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rod, I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb]. I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway. Keeping fingers crossed. Checking the drive belts is a good idea! May have fallen off, I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet). I have the terminal connected that was used with the system, a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct, but now I start having doubts. Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system, I need to study the documentation! greetz, - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 11:50 PM To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help Whilst I have no experience of DG systems I am familar with drives of that era. The red label is important. If you did not put the shipping locks in we must assume it travelled without. Thats not good. If the journey was not too bumpy then you may be ok. I have seen floppy drives with shipping locks but its not usual. So the floppy drive might be a good place to start. The drive may be fine but disks do not last forever. I would want to be sure the actual disk was ok. Does it have any kind of power on self test? As it appears that system does not boot nor do you get any out put on a terminal. (You do have a terminal attached) perhaps a good mechanical check of the floppy drive. Things like belts and rubber components are worth a look. Rod On 17/10/2015 21:16, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff > (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van > single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... > > Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There > was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. > After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard > drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the > hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and > the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! > The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the > hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the > NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. > > See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html > After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, > so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. > The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the > hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds > the READY LED is lit. > However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED > on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. > > On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has > the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), > but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the > floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy > disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine > starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. > > When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then > PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, > but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. > Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label > on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk > access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. > > As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins > where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the > terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins > for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal > that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal > settings match the settings for the NOVA. > > One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on > it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock > pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing > that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to > lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing > and cannot localize that screw. > I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... > > Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those > shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? > > Thanks, > - Henk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 18 11:59:34 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:59:34 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 16 October 2015 23:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU > > > > > Thanks very much for this. Interesting that there is a fuse inside. > > You would think the casing would be designed to allow the fuse to be > > replaced somehow. > > > > That's not the original fuse either. I managed to blow that one when I was > trying to find the original problem with the PSU. I was having a really bad day > and I somehow managed to clip the scope ground lead onto the negative end of > the rectified mains smoother instead of the negative of one of the output > smoothers. > The original fuse had wire ended caps pressed on to it and I was unable to get > them off so I ended up soldering loops of wire around the replacement fuse > instead. > > It looks like the case was originally designed to be held together with a single > screw. Perhaps it was later decided that this was insufficient to keep it from > coming apart and exposing dangerous voltages if dropped from a height and it > was decided to glue it together instead? > > I can sort of see why it might not be a priority to make the fuse replacable. > Firstly, someone might try to replace it with a 13A plug fuse. Secondly, if the > fuse did blow, there would likely be other components damaged. Sadly, it > might be cheaper to get a replacement unit from stock than to pay someone > capable of repairing it properly and ensuring it's safety afterwards. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. What kind of tool did you use? Regards Rob From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 18 12:23:19 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:23:19 -0500 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5623D587.3080308@charter.net> On 10/17/2015 3:16 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff > (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van > single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... > > Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There > was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. > After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard > drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the > hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and > the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! > The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the > hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the > NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. My Nova 4 and Eclipse S/140 have a 6100 DG winchester hard disk with the floppy on a hinge sitting over the hard disk, as a single unit. I think it is the same family as yours (DG calls them "ECHO" in some of the docs). Mine (I have one on my Nova 4 and one on my S/140) are labelled "6100" for the model. My controller is labelled "DISC LOGIC NOVA" 10700089102 (you might have to slide the board out to see that 107........ number, but often a flashlight will allow you to see it while it is still fully in the machine). > > See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html > After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, > so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. > The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the > hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds > the READY LED is lit. If that is the case, then your hard disk is likely pretty functional (it may not be fully functional, but the READY light is a very very good sign). If the spindle or head lock were present, then I would not expect that the READY light would come on. The humming is the spindle startup. If you hear the disk spinning, then the spindle is not locked. ;) If the drive is 100% quiet after the hum part, then there is probably something not right. ;) > However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED > on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. > See below regarding the Virtual Console. > On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has > the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), > but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the > floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy > disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine > starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. > My 6100 is the same. > When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then > PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, > but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. > Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label > on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk > access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. > > As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins > where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the > terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins > for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal > that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal > settings match the settings for the NOVA. My NOVA/4 has a console ROM (DG calls it a Virtual Console - VC) that works over the serial port. That you are seeing no characters is NOT a good sign. The Virtual Console on the Nova/4 is very similar to the S/140, so you can look at bitsavers .../pdf/dg/eclipse in the S140 Programmer's Reference for guidance. So, you might start by seeing if the VC is operating. If it isn't, then you should presumably fix that first and just leave the disk drive turned off. Naturally, the VC "Cells" are different for the S/140. For the NOVA 4: 0-3 AC0 - AC3 4 Return address 5 Stack pointer 6 Frame pointer 7 Bit 15 (LSB) Interrupt enable 10 MAP Status word 11 Switch Register 12 Bit 15 (LSB) is the carry bit My boot sequence from the virtual console on the S/140 goes like this (the "!" is the Virtual console prompt - see below) !11A xxxxxx 1000dd [ is newline - this loads the switch reg.] !1000ddL where "dd" is the device: 33 for the hard disk or floppy (depending upon the switch setting) and 22 is mag tape. The leading "1" indicates a "channel" (DMA) device. PR Load presumably does essentially the same thing. > > One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on > it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock > pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing > that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to > lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing > and cannot localize that screw. > I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... > The spindle lock (shipping bracket, I suppose) is underneath the drive - where the belt is. You have to take the bottom cover off of the drive. It has two screws on it. The locked position faces towards the spindle motor and (I think) a hole in the bracket fits over a locking pin. The unlocked position is towards the spindle towards the center of the drive. The head lock is also underneath the drive - where the belt is. You have to take the bottom cover off the drive. If you follow diagonally from the motor, past the belt over to the the spindle and keep going you will see a little plastic arm, one end of which is on a pin (the pivot) and the other has (I think) a screw. The locked position (at least on a 6100) is toward the middle of the drive, and the unlocked position is towards the edge of the drive. > Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those > shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? > I have doc on the 6100 series, including a copy of the Field Maintenance manual I can scan it (being a copy, the scan quality won't be as good, but I'd have to saw my original to scan that in). I also have a Nova 4/S 4/X field replaceable maintenance manual which has more info in it than one might think from the title, and probably has at least some info that would be useful for you (except for the CPU card itself of course). This is unbound and would not be difficult to scan. Finally, I have a Nova 4 programmers reference, but those are bound and would have to be scanned page by page. > Thanks, > - Henk > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 18 12:24:46 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:24:46 -0500 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5623D5DE.6040302@charter.net> On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Thanks Rod, > > I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether > the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb]. > I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not > bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway. > Keeping fingers crossed. > > Checking the drive belts is a good idea! May have fallen off, > I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the > hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet). > I have the terminal connected that was used with the system, > a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct, > but now I start having doubts. > > Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system, > I need to study the documentation! > > greetz, > - Henk > > On one of my two hard drives, there is a tendency for the belt to spin off on startup, too. JRJ From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 18 12:30:21 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:30:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this > thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. > What kind of tool did you use? My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in a small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can split one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts though. The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc board in a switchmode PSU. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 12:36:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:36:23 +0000 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: > > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this > > thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. > > What kind of tool did you use? > > My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs > that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in a > small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can split If possible you want to squeeze the 'inner member' of the joint. So what I do is put the jaws of the vice just to one side of the seam and squeeze, and if that doesn't help then turn the whole thing over and sqeeze on the other side of the seam. > one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a > mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts though. > The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc board > in a switchmode PSU. Or the other old trick for linear PSU bricks (again, don't try it with SMPSUs) -- hold the cables about 2' from the unit and swing it round so that it hits the bench or floor. That often cracks them open with suprisingly little damage. Oh for the days when we had screws holding such things together! -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Oct 18 12:45:23 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:45:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Ok good I don't think the heads will load until the floppy disk is turning. If its a belt driven drive (most 8" drives were) replace the belt anyway. I have seen plenty of drives where the belt has become sticky and glued itself to one of the drive wheels. It tries to turn and breaks. So clean off any residue on the drive wheels. I am short on DG knowledge but the norm was disk present plus door closed would cause motor start either as a drive function or via a CPU interrupt. ----Original message---- >From : henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Date : 18/10/2015 - 16:48 (UTC) To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject : Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help Thanks Rod, I feel stupid ... It would have been a simple check to see whether the floppy drive actually rotates the floppy [dumb, dumb, dumb]. I did transport the disk drive very carefully ... The trip was not bumpy, and most of it was on a (smooth) highway. Keeping fingers crossed. Checking the drive belts is a good idea! May have fallen off, I have seen that before on DEC drives (RX01, RX02). Whether the hard disk has a self test, I don't know (yet). I have the terminal connected that was used with the system, a Dasher D200. I am pretty sure that the connection is correct, but now I start having doubts. Floppy diskette still OK is the big question. Interesting system, I need to study the documentation! greetz, - Henk -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod Smallwood Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 11:50 PM To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help Whilst I have no experience of DG systems I am familar with drives of that era. The red label is important. If you did not put the shipping locks in we must assume it travelled without. Thats not good. If the journey was not too bumpy then you may be ok. I have seen floppy drives with shipping locks but its not usual. So the floppy drive might be a good place to start. The drive may be fine but disks do not last forever. I would want to be sure the actual disk was ok. Does it have any kind of power on self test? As it appears that system does not boot nor do you get any out put on a terminal. (You do have a terminal attached) perhaps a good mechanical check of the floppy drive. Things like belts and rubber components are worth a look. Rod On 17/10/2015 21:16, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I picked up the NOVA 4 last Thursday. I had help carrying all the stuff > (disassembled) downstairs from the attic. At home I had to unload the van > single-handed. Went well, although I felt my back that evening ... > > Today, I cleaned the rack, as all boxes were still on the floor. There > was little dust, the machine was well taken care of. > After the cleaning I mounted the hard disk drive on the slides. The hard > drive is a model 6101-S2 (12.5 MB fixed disk). On the top plate of the > hard disk is an 8" Qume floppy disk drive mounted. The hard disk and > the floppy disk form one unit, never seen this construction before! > The colored twisted-pair flatcable from the floppy drive goes to the > hard disk and another colored twisted-pair flat cable goes to the > NOVA 4/C computer, connecting on a paddle board using an edge connector. > > See my website: www.pdp-11.nl/dg/nova4/nova4.html > After everything was connected I applied mains. The fans start to run, > so far so good. Then I switch on the NOVA and then the hard disk unit. > The POWER LED on the NOVA and on the hard disk is lit. I can hear the > hard disk "hum", and when the humming sound stops after a few seconds > the READY LED is lit. > However, when I press RESET on the NOVA and then PR.LOAD, the READY LED > on the disk flashes momentarily (brief), but nothing further happens. > > On the disk drive are (behind the panel) two small switches. One has > the text "NORM" and "PROT", the other has several texts (forgotten), > but with that switch you can set the hard disk as device 0 and the > floppy drive device 1, or the hard disk as device 1 and the floppy > disk as device 0. Basically you can set the boot device, as the machine > starts from device 0. I have this from the accompanying documentation. > > When I put that switch in the other position and press RESET and then > PR.LOAD on the NOVA, the floppy disk LED is lit for a few seconds, > but I do not hear a head load ("clunk"), nor head stepping sounds. > Of course, the floppy drive is loaded with a floppy disk. The label > on the floppy says "opstart" (Dutch for start up). As the floppy disk > access LED turn on, I guess that I can say that the NOVA itself is OK. > > As far as I know, I have the BERG connector put back on the pins > where it was before I did the disassembly. That cable connects to the > terminal. The question might be whether it was on the correct pins > for starters. I do not get any character(s) on the Dasher D200 terminal > that came with the system. For that reason, I assume that the terminal > settings match the settings for the NOVA. > > One more remark. On the hard disk is a red label glued. The text on > it says "remove 2 shipping brackets before operating unit unlock > pivot arm (see over)". On the rear side of the label is a drawing > that shows the "front left corner". At the side is a screw (???) to > lock/unlock the head(s). However, I just don't understand the drawing > and cannot localize that screw. > I mailed the previous owner whether he remembers something ... > > Anybody has info on the 6101-S2 disk drive? A drawing of those > shipping rackets, and more info about head locks? > > Thanks, > - Henk From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 12:50:05 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:50:05 -0600 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: Did the disks for the original IBM 23FD "Minnow" floppy disk also have the sector/index hole near the edge, like the Memorex 650/651? The Minnow was used as a read-only device for loading microcode, and the disks were only factory written. I haven't seen an actual Minnow disk, but since Memorex was one of the companies making plug-compatible equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if they designed the 650/651 medium to be mechanically interchangeable with the 23FD disks. The Memorex 650/651 supported read/write use, and had more than twice the formatted capacity of the 23FD, so the on-disk format clearly didn't match the 23FD. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Oct 18 13:01:54 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:01:54 -0700 Subject: Nice blog post on fixing a 1401 memory bug... Message-ID: <20151018110154.788b56ec@asrock.bcwi.net> I'm forwarding a blog post written by a member of the CHM 1401 Restoration Team. Excellent description (with pictures) of how 1401 memory is addressed, etc.: http://www.righto.com/2015/10/repairing-50-year-old-mainframe-inside.html Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 18 13:02:48 2015 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 13:02:48 -0500 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? Message-ID: I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot RT-11XM, then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem. But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ, and VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself (without VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM. So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus? thanks Charles From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 18 13:29:27 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:29:27 -0600 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5623E507.2040406@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2015 12:02 PM, Charles wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot > RT-11XM, then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem. > > But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ, > and VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself > (without VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM. > > So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus? > > thanks > Charles Create a PDP8 simulator ... :-) Runs and ducks. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 18 13:31:29 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:31:29 +0100 Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: <00f401d109d3$349a1e40$9dce5ac0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 18 October 2015 18:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU > > > > > > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry > > > this thing apart without causing much more damage than appears in your > photo. > > > What kind of tool did you use? > > > > My usual technique to deal with these sort of brick and wall-wart PSUs > > that are glued together is to carefully squeeze their plastic sides in > > a small padded vise to break the glue joint. With practice, you can > > split > > If possible you want to squeeze the 'inner member' of the joint. So what I do is > put the jaws of the vice just to one side of the seam and squeeze, and if that > doesn't help then turn the whole thing over and sqeeze on the other side of the > seam. > > > one of these open with little to no damage. Don't be tempted to use a > > mallet as you could with really old linear transformer wall-warts though. > > The g-forces generated by a mallet will break components off of a pc > > board in a switchmode PSU. > > Or the other old trick for linear PSU bricks (again, don't try it with SMPSUs) > -- hold the cables about 2' from the unit and swing it round so that it hits the > bench or floor. That often cracks them open with suprisingly little damage. > > Oh for the days when we had screws holding such things together! > > -tony > = Great idea to use a vice, never thought of that. Will give it a go. Thanks Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 13:32:12 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:32:12 +0200 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: Thanks Jay and Rod, you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/ So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it, laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ... Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers! Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with the system tell about a single letter to start the application, not xxxxxL, so there might be a console ROM. I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND. tnx! - Henk From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 18 13:40:30 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:40:30 -0400 Subject: Monochrome ECL monitors, circa 1990 - was Re: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <1445181403.7488.9.camel@student.his.se> References: <1445181403.7488.9.camel@student.his.se> Message-ID: <5623E79E.1050500@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-18 11:16 AM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > l?r 2015-10-17 klockan 10:01 -0400 skrev ethan at 757.org: > >> I was always under the impression that a few of them made it out >> there? >> >> I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has >> a >> VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board >> installed. I >> think it has a modem port. I know it's not compatible with normal ST >> softwar,e has VGA, does not use a ps2 keyboard but uses an ST >> keyboard, >> and has real SCSI versus ACSI! >> >> Strange computers. Doesn't look quite as cool as the Mega 2/4 IMHO >> but >> still interesting! >> > > The specs makes me think that it is a bit more powerfull than a Sun > 3/80 (and 280 too.) > The ECL monitor reminds me about Sun Sun2/3/4:era bwtwo. > > About the same resolution. > > Remark: how much did a 1280x1024 capable ecl-monitor cost around 1990 ? > I was using Macintosh high res mono screens around that time. I found a price from Jan 2, 1989: Sigma Laserview for SE, 1664x1200, presumably including the interface card: $2295 And a lot more prices from Feb 16, 1987: Megascreen Plus, 1024x900 $2495 Page 46: http://ur1.ca/o2qyo --Toby From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Oct 18 13:10:03 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:10:03 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:59:34 +0100" <00f301d109c6$5dd3ef00$197bcd00$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601d07917$a4f03a00$eed0ae00$@ntlworld.com> <01PRYJSVK90200A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZVTQDE5000A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <01PRZYMVZEEI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PS2H3IEWOI00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> > > I had another go today, but I fail to see how you managed to pry this thing > apart without causing much more damage than appears in your photo. What kind > of tool did you use? > Stuff sometimes looks better in a photo than it does in real life. There are all sorts of nicks and gouges and the two halves don't mate up anything like as well as they originally did. It's a long time since I originally opened it so I don't remember exactly what I used. Probably jewellers screwdrivers initially, slightly larger flat-bladed screwdrivers, pen knife, an old scissors, blunt old cutlery knives, that sort of thing. Unfortunately, there is a small step at the seam so it is not really possible to cut along it with a sharp blade without cutting through part of the case too. Also, the glue seemed to be nearly as hard as the case material and that didn't help either. I do remember that it was very difficult to open and took a long time over more than one sitting. I think I managed to get started in a few locations but even after freeing both ends completely, it still would not budge until I managed to break it all the way along one of the long sides as well. I recall making very slow but visible progress along one side or end for a while but eventually I would come to a point where I could not seem to get any further and I would have to start again at a different location. Before I got to that point, I tried the slamming it onto concrete trick as well but that made no impression on it except it probably contributed to the broken track that manifested later. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 18 13:51:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:51:56 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> On 10/18/2015 10:50 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Did the disks for the original IBM 23FD "Minnow" floppy disk also > have the sector/index hole near the edge, like the Memorex 650/651? > The Minnow was used as a read-only device for loading microcode, and > the disks were only factory written. I haven't seen an actual Minnow > disk, but since Memorex was one of the companies making > plug-compatible equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if they designed > the 650/651 medium to be mechanically interchangeable with the 23FD > disks. > > The Memorex 650/651 supported read/write use, and had more than > twice the formatted capacity of the 23FD, so the on-disk format > clearly didn't match the 23FD. To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector holes. I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be reasonable. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 14:16:36 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:16:36 -0500 Subject: "Farm" slang terms Message-ID: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Hi, all. I'm looking for information on slang terms with the word "farm" in them, relating to computaters; especially the origins of such terms. I've known "cube farm" (a bunch of cubicles where office workers work) and "render farm" (a cluster of computers used for graphics rendering in parallel) for a long time, but just recently I found a reference to "link farm" as meaning "an incremental backup consisting mostly of links (most likely hard links) to the relevant files in the preceding iteration of the backup"; but this page says "a website with little or no content, consisting of mostly (or entirely) links to other websites." So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them? (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it now.) -- Eric Christopherson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 18 14:26:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:26:46 +0000 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when > and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them? > (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it > now.) Not likely to be used much now (well, not outside members of this list) but an array of transputers (often) interconnected by C004 link switches was often called a 'Transputer farm' -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 18 14:37:11 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201510181937.PAA29857@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] just recently I found a reference to "link farm" as meaning "an > incremental backup consisting mostly of links (most likely hard > links) to the relevant files in the preceding iteration of the > backup"; but this page [...] says "a website with little or no > content, consisting of mostly (or entirely) links to other websites." I would say that, rather that specifically either of those, it is "a collection of links to elsewhere and little else", where "link" is a deliberately vague term. In particular, I have heard/seen, and used, it to refer to a directory containing symbolic links to elsewhere and little/nothing else; my phrasing above is an attempt to capture the common pattern behind these three uses. No, I don't know anything significant about the history of any such terms. But you might want to look at the Jargon File (http://www.catb.org/jargon/); it has three entries with "farm" in their names, which you might be interested in. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 18 14:46:58 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when > and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them? > (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it > now.) Going back a ways, it originated with growing crops. Then, it began being used for some other agricultural uses, such as a "pig farm". Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" (Altamont pass). >From there, it evolved into collections of anything, such as "server farm", and even "cube farm". From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 14:50:21 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:50:21 -0500 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151018195021.GD59364@gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Hi, all. I'm looking for information on slang terms with the word "farm" > in them, relating to computaters; especially the origins of such terms. > I've known "cube farm" (a bunch of cubicles where office workers work) > and "render farm" (a cluster of computers used for graphics rendering in > parallel) for a long time, but just recently I found a reference to > "link farm" as meaning "an incremental backup consisting mostly of links > (most likely hard links) to the relevant files in the preceding > iteration of the backup"; but this page > says > "a website with little or no content, consisting of mostly (or entirely) > links to other websites." On top of that, FOLDOC has a slightly different meaning again : "(file system, Unix) A directory tree that contains mostly symbolic links to files in a master directory tree of files. Link farms save space when one is maintaining several nearly identical copies of the same source tree - for example, when the only difference is architecture-dependent object files. They also mean that changes to the master tree are instantly visible in the link farm. Good text editors provide the option to replace a link with a new version of the target file when saving thus allowing the farm to have its own versions of just those files that differ from the master tree." This sounds like it just might be an old-school programming practice; I at least have never seen it in any open-source projects. I've also never seen this discussed in any text editor documentation; but I know some editors (perhaps optionally) do remove the existing file before writing its replacement, which would do what the entry suggests. I just tried it in Vim on OS X, and both in the case of hard links and symbolic links it kept the link intact and updated the contents of the original. > > So, does anyone know what the first such "farm" slang term was, and when > and where it originated? And how about other terms with "farm" in them? > (I came across a new one the other day, but of course I've forgotten it > now.) > > -- > Eric Christopherson -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 18 15:08:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 13:08:45 -0700 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections > of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" > (Altamont pass). I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to as a disk farm--but I don't think the usage was standard. --Chuck From ethan at 757.org Sun Oct 18 15:19:00 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> References: <007901d108e7$dee80430$9cb80c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> I have a TT030 and actually was just looking at it last night. It has >>> a VME slot (as they call it) that has a dual serial port board >>> installed. I think it has a modem port. > That is an AppleTalk port. Nope. My TT030 has 2 modem ports (RS232), then 2 more serial ports via VME card. The appletalk looking thing is on the side: http://i.imgur.com/VrUCdGx.jpg Before it was given to me, I had heard there was a 5 terminal unix something or other for the 030 and they used the 4 ports to drive termianls. It was random, most of my Atari ST stuff is a long term loan from a friend that knows I tinker with them. All of his Atari ST equipment is probably from NASA surplus auction. From cube1 at charter.net Sun Oct 18 15:26:27 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:26:27 -0500 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <56240073.40203@charter.net> On 10/18/2015 1:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Thanks Jay and Rod, > > you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting > a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better > put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least > a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want > to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift > it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/ > So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it, > laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ... > Yup. I know that drill only too well. > Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers! > Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with > the system tell about a single letter to start the application, > not xxxxxL, so there might be a console ROM. > I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board > to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are > just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND. > > tnx! > - Henk > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 15:49:43 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:49:43 -0600 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> Message-ID: > To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector holes. > I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be reasonable. Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near the spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 18 16:00:07 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:00:07 -0700 Subject: Haul of the weekend Message-ID: <56240857.2030002@jwsss.com> A run to a dark corner of Orange County yielded a Sun 4-260 and a DecServer 550. After loading the 4-260 the DecServer 550 seemed like a feather. Also in the pile to be collected, a stash of Hitachi ESDI drives of some sort (full high 500mb) Probably will be selling them. The storage circumstances was a bit rangy but beggars can't be choosers. Thanks Jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Oct 18 16:20:38 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 23:20:38 +0200 Subject: Haul of the weekend In-Reply-To: <56240857.2030002@jwsss.com> References: <56240857.2030002@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20151018212038.GA24163@Update.UU.SE> I might be interested in smaller ESDI (<500MB) if they are in decent condition. /P On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 02:00:07PM -0700, jwsmobile wrote: > > A run to a dark corner of Orange County yielded a Sun 4-260 and a > DecServer 550. After loading the 4-260 the DecServer 550 seemed > like a feather. > > Also in the pile to be collected, a stash of Hitachi ESDI drives of > some sort (full high 500mb) Probably will be selling them. > > The storage circumstances was a bit rangy but beggars can't be choosers. > > Thanks > Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 18 16:46:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:46:14 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> On 10/18/2015 01:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector >> holes. I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be >> reasonable. > > Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near > the spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives? My recollection is on the outside. Makes sense, too--far easier to get those punched accurately. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 16:50:06 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:50:06 -0500 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2015 3:08 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections >> of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" >> (Altamont pass). > > > I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to as a disk farm--but I don't think the usage was standard. > > --Chuck > That's listed in the Jargon File too; and from there I learned of the phenomenon of walking disks. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 17:14:34 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 23:14:34 +0100 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 18 October 2015 21:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: "Farm" slang terms > > On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections > > of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" > > (Altamont pass). > > I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to as a disk > farm--but I don't think the usage was standard. > > --Chuck I seem to remember that as well, but from earlier as you say. Looking at Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_farm I can see that Antenna Farms is an older term, dating back to at least 1950, but of course as antenna's are usually in fields.. Dave G4UGM From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 17:16:53 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:16:53 -0500 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: <50991D99-718D-43B1-BD7D-6438A0E4DD57@aracnet.com> References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> <50991D99-718D-43B1-BD7D-6438A0E4DD57@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <56241A55.10403@gmail.com> On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same board with different firmware. > > If you can get it working, it should be a fun game! I love Aero Fighters 2 & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo. > > Looks like this page might have some details to help. Linky not appearing :-( I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes promising tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems like basic CPU, RAM and ROM are there at least. * I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how many a typical cab had (more than one?). cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 18 17:26:04 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > I can see that Antenna Farms is an older term, dating back to at least 1950, > but of course as antenna's are usually in fields.. It gradually evolved from agricultural to ANYTHING, and then from fields to ANY space. Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING? From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 17:56:50 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:56:50 -0300 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> On 2015-10-18 6:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/18/2015 01:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> To the best of my recollection, the Minnow used disks with 8 sector >>> holes. I don't recall the modulation scheme, but FM would be >>> reasonable. >> >> Sure, but were the holes on the outside, like the Memorex, or near >> the spindle, like all later 8-inch floppy drives? > > My recollection is on the outside. Makes sense, too--far easier to > get those punched accurately. > > --Chuck Page 518 of IBM's 360 and Early 370 systems says "On Minnow, the start fo a sector had been indicated by eight sector holes uniformly spaced around the outer edge of the disk" It goes on to say that when the first read/write drive was developed (Igar) the hard sector holes where dropped in favour of more usable surface are. I have seen the diskettes for minnow and and they where considerably less floppy than the later diskette. It is hardly surprising that Memorex followed this scheme in those days they where famous poaching engineers and producing clones of IBM storage products. I remember a customer having a Memorex disk unit on a string of 3370s and I think you could have swapped parts between the Memorex unit and a 3370. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 18 18:12:53 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:12:53 -0700 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: <56241A55.10403@gmail.com> References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> <50991D99-718D-43B1-BD7D-6438A0E4DD57@aracnet.com> <56241A55.10403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <327C126A-5213-423F-BF63-D8DEABB21E8D@aracnet.com> On Oct 18, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> >> On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or if other games used the same board with different firmware. >> >> If you can get it working, it should be a fun game! I love Aero Fighters 2 & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo. >> >> Looks like this page might have some details to help. > > Linky not appearing :-( > > I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes promising tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems like basic CPU, RAM and ROM are there at least. > > * I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how many a typical cab had (more than one?). If you get that far, then it may have been a monitor problem, rather than a board problem. Or the board problem is in the video circuitry. Here is the link I meant to send. http://hacks.slashdirt.org/hw/supergun/ Even now typical cabinets only have one JAMMA board. I've been researching a project I'm getting ready to start in on. I want to make some custom arcade controllers as I love the old 8-bit game systems, but the old controllers are *painfully* bad. As a result I've come across these things on a few pages. You can find them cheaper on eBay. It looks like they do what you want. http://www.focusattack.com/gonbes-gbs-8220-v3-cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb/ Right now I'm stuck on figuring out the best option for housing my controller. The first will be a simple Atari joystick replacement that replaces the joystick with 4 Happ arcade buttons and two fire buttons (so it can be used for either Atari 2600 or 7800. That's child's play, a good housing isn't. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 18 18:32:27 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 17:32:27 -0600 Subject: JAMMA board video hookup In-Reply-To: <327C126A-5213-423F-BF63-D8DEABB21E8D@aracnet.com> References: <5623BBA6.8010609@gmail.com> <5623C6BA.6080902@gmail.com> <50991D99-718D-43B1-BD7D-6438A0E4DD57@aracnet.com> <56241A55.10403@gmail.com> <327C126A-5213-423F-BF63-D8DEABB21E8D@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <56242C0B.4060809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2015 5:12 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Oct 18, 2015, at 3:16 PM, Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> On 10/18/2015 11:48 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> >>> On Oct 18, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Jules Richardson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It came from an Aero Fighters cab - board says "IT-19-02" in >>>> the corner. I've no idea if it was a one-off for this game or >>>> if other games used the same board with different firmware. >>> >>> If you can get it working, it should be a fun game! I love Aero >>> Fighters 2 & 3 (aka Sonic Wings) on the Neo Geo. >>> >>> Looks like this page might have some details to help. >> >> Linky not appearing :-( >> >> I just hooked the board up to a PSU and a speaker, and it makes >> promising tuneful noises (at ear-bleeding volume*) - so it seems >> like basic CPU, RAM and ROM are there at least. >> >> * I've no idea what the original impedance would have been, or how >> many a typical cab had (more than one?). > > > If you get that far, then it may have been a monitor problem, rather > than a board problem. Or the board problem is in the video > circuitry. > > Here is the link I meant to send. > > http://hacks.slashdirt.org/hw/supergun/ > > Even now typical cabinets only have one JAMMA board. > > I've been researching a project I'm getting ready to start in on. I > want to make some custom arcade controllers as I love the old 8-bit > game systems, but the old controllers are *painfully* bad. As a > result I've come across these things on a few pages. You can find > them cheaper on eBay. It looks like they do what you want. > > http://www.focusattack.com/gonbes-gbs-8220-v3-cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb/ > > Right now I'm stuck on figuring out the best option for housing my > controller. The first will be a simple Atari joystick replacement > that replaces the joystick with 4 Happ arcade buttons and two fire > buttons (so it can be used for either Atari 2600 or 7800. That's > child's play, a good housing isn't. > > Zane If you can make a copy of the roms. If you find a FPGA clone board of the game, you still need roms. Ben. From jsw at ieee.org Sun Oct 18 19:24:15 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:24:15 -0500 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? In-Reply-To: <5623E507.2040406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5623E507.2040406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2015, at 1:29 PM, ben wrote: > > On 10/18/2015 12:02 PM, Charles wrote: >> I have a PDP-11/23+ with 4 MB RAM and two RL02 drives. I can boot >> RT-11XM, then run VBGEXE and start ADVENT with no problem. >> >> But TSX-Plus 6.50, at least the version I have, has to run over RT-11SJ, >> and VBGEXE reports "Wrong version". And ADVENT won't run by itself >> (without VBGEXE), whether SJ or XM. >> >> So is there any way to run ADVENT while running TSX-Plus? >> >> thanks >> Charles > Charles It should directly in TSX-Plus . Make sure your current memory limit is 56K. See below for my attempt. BTW TSX should only use RT11 to ?boot?. TSX doesn?t run over RT11SJ in this version. TSX replaces all the OS code. .sh memory ?... Current job memory limit = 56Kb Maximum job memory limit = 64Kb .sh ver 6.20 .run advent WELCOME TO ADVENTURE!! WOULD YOU LIKE INSTRUCTIONS? YES SOMEWHERE NEARBY IS COLOSSAL CAVE, WHERE OTHERS HAVE FOUND FORTUNES IN TREASURE AND GOLD, THOUGH IT IS RUMORED THAT SOME WHO ENTER ARE NEVER ??. THIS PROGRAM WAS ORIGINALLY DEVELOPED BY WILLIE CROWTHER. MOST OF THE FEATURES OF THE CURRENT PROGRAM WERE ADDED BY DON WOODS (DON @ SU-AI). THE CURRENT VERSION WAS DONE BY MIKE WESTON. YOU ARE STANDING AT THE END OF A ROAD BEFORE A SMALL BRICK BUILDING. AROUND YOU IS A FOREST. A SMALL STREAM FLOWS OUT OF THE BUILDING AND DOWN A GULLY. > Create a PDP8 simulator ... :-) > Runs and ducks. > > > If you want authenticity, then a PDP10 and a ASR33 are required?. Happy Spelunking Jerry From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 18 20:00:57 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 18:00:57 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> On 10/18/2015 03:56 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > It goes on to say that when the first read/write drive was developed > (Igar) the hard sector holes where dropped in favour of more usable > surface are. I have seen the diskettes for minnow and and they > where considerably less floppy than the later diskette. The Memorex 650 accommodated 64 tracks/cylinders instead of the later and more customary 77. It's worthwhile noting that the 651 implements FM on the drive--there's no "raw data" signal output. > It is hardly surprising that Memorex followed this scheme in those > days they where famous poaching engineers and producing clones of IBM > storage products. I remember a customer having a Memorex disk unit > on a string of 3370s and I think you could have swapped parts between > the Memorex unit and a 3370. IBM occupied a large segment of the market and was a favorite target for lots of followers. If you just observe the passage of Memorex through the history of acquisitions and being acquired and sold, it's truly amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation. --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Oct 18 20:04:44 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:04:44 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> At 08:37 AM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic >workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if >running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be >possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it >actually is possible. > >To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in >timesharing. First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all >IOTs are trapped when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8 >uses 15-bit addresses, which would make it impossible to use with >virtual memory. > >Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode. > >However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under >RTS-8, and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts. >Also, since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do >anything, FRTS actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8, >even if you actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8 >emulator in this situation. > >MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is >running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work >under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements >the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under >RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as >well. Otherwise not. Sounds like it's possible, if MULTOS-8 can give a user a full 32k to work with. >Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user >mode, both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the >15-bit addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only >allows memory accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any >memory reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I >think it could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from >user mode, if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I >lack the hardware. That's not going to help anything using Fortran-IV, of course. The library and user code assumes that "virtual" addresses are the same as physical ones. And IOTs aren't "not possible" - they just need to be trapped and emulated by the OS. It wouldn't be all that hard to add support for a FPP to a timesharing system as a UUO that knows how to map the user's field to something the FPP could use, then locking that field in core, as the FPP will continue to DMA from it while executing FPP instructions. To support even this simple FPP mode would require the underlying OS to handle the housekeeping, as the FPP startup needs to know the physical field of the active parameter table, which a timeshared user wouldn't know. Seems like a lot of work given the number of FPPs in the wild. Also, not just FPP8-A has that feature. The "same field as the APT" bit is also implemented by the FPP-12. This makes me wonder what application there was for this. Of course, you don't need the hardware to experiment with this. The SIMH FPP-8A implementation is as compatible to the hardware as I could make it - everything but the maintenance mode IOTs are implemented. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Oct 18 21:43:50 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 04:43:50 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 03:04, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 08:37 AM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> I decided to look into this a couple of days ago, since the basic >> workings of FRTS includes using interrupts, which is not possible if >> running under time sharing. That would also imply that it would not be >> possible to use F4 under RTS-8, which I had some memory of that it >> actually is possible. >> >> To sum things up: The FPP-8 can usually not be used when in >> timesharing. First of all, you use IOTs to control the FPP, and all >> IOTs are trapped when in user mode. Second, as you note, the FPP-8 >> uses 15-bit addresses, which would make it impossible to use with >> virtual memory. >> >> Also, the interrupt system is not available when in user mode. >> >> However, FRTS actually have code to detect if it is running under >> RTS-8, and do not use the interrupt system in that case, but adopts. >> Also, since the FPP-8 IOTs are caught by RTS-8, and do not do >> anything, FRTS actually believes you are on a system without an FPP-8, >> even if you actually have one. So, FRTS will always use the FPP-8 >> emulator in this situation. >> >> MULTOS-8 hook in to the same functionality, making FRTS believe it is >> running under RTS-8, which means that F4 programs will actually work >> under MULTOS-8, including ADVENT. I don't know if ETOS also implements >> the bits needed to make it look like OS/8 programs are actually under >> RTS-8. If it does, ADVENT should be possible to run under ETOS as >> well. Otherwise not. > > Sounds like it's possible, if MULTOS-8 can give a user a full 32k to > work with. Yes, it does. Not that this really is the important point I was making, but anyway... The point I was making was that FRTS detects if it is running in the background of RTS-8, and patches itself to not use the interrupt system in this case. And MULTOS-8 made sure to cause FRTS to think that it is running in the background of RTS-8, so that the patches are applied, thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. >> Finally, as I noted, the FPP-8 is not that possible to use in user >> mode, both because of the IOT instructions being caught, and the >> 15-bit addressing. However, the FPP-8A have a mode where it only >> allows memory accesses within the same field, and will trap out if any >> memory reference goes to another field. With some work, and code, I >> think it could be possible to actually have access to the FPP-8 from >> user mode, if you have an FPP-8A, but I have never tried this, as I >> lack the hardware. > > That's not going to help anything using Fortran-IV, of course. The > library and user code assumes that "virtual" addresses are the same as > physical ones. And IOTs aren't "not possible" - they just need to be > trapped and emulated by the OS. No, you are wrong. Yes, the IOTs just "needs to be implemented". That is the easy part. The memory mapping is not. However, the mode in the FPP-8A that restricts the FPP code to only allow access within the current field will then trap out if the code tries to access anything outside, and the addresses are still 15 bits. This means that the OS can then handle this as a page fault (field fault?), and swap in the correct field, and then resume FPP-8 execution. However, like I said, I have not tried actually implementing anything like this, since I don't even have the hardware. And I suspect it might be a headache since I guess addresses are still absolute, meaning and field relocations done by the OS needs to somehow be done for the FPP-8 code as well. Not sure how you'd do that, but I think people with enough creativity could maybe come up with some solution. I would have to re-read the documentation to see how well I remember this stuff... > It wouldn't be all that hard to add support for a FPP to a timesharing > system as a UUO that knows how to map the user's field to something the > FPP could use, then locking that field in core, as the FPP will continue > to DMA from it while executing FPP instructions. That would prevent more than one user using the FPP-8, though. Doable, but not really that useful if you want a timesharing system for more than one user. > To support even this simple FPP mode would require the underlying OS to > handle the housekeeping, as the FPP startup needs to know the physical > field of the active parameter table, which a timeshared user wouldn't know. Not to mention you'd have to figure out how to manage if the FPP wants to run in field 0, which the OS needs for its own use... > Seems like a lot of work given the number of FPPs in the wild. Agreed. > Also, not just FPP8-A has that feature. The "same field as the APT" bit > is also implemented by the FPP-12. This makes me wonder what application > there was for this. I didn't know the FPP-12 had that. Interesting. Yes, I wonder if anything ever used it. > Of course, you don't need the hardware to experiment with this. The SIMH > FPP-8A implementation is as compatible to the hardware as I could make > it - everything but the maintenance mode IOTs are implemented. Hmm. Good point. Last I looked at this, simh hardly even existed. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 18 21:58:16 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:58:16 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. > > Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, > ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit smaller now with the latest code. >> Johnny > Ben. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Oct 18 22:08:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 05:08:47 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote: > On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. >> >> Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, >> ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. > > I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit > smaller now with the latest code. That would be interesting to check out. You know where I could find it? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 18 22:14:29 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:14:29 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56246015.9070403@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2015 9:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote: >> On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. >>> >>> Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, >>> ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. >> >> I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit >> smaller now with the latest code. > > That would be interesting to check out. You know where I could find it? > > Johnny Last version 2009 2.4 http://www.rickmurphy.net/advent/index.html Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 18 22:39:37 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 22:39:37 -0500 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562465F9.6060407@pico-systems.com> On 10/18/2015 08:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > IBM occupied a large segment of the market and was a > favorite target for lots of followers. If you just > observe the passage of Memorex through the history of > acquisitions and being acquired and sold, it's truly > amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation. As 3rd party vendors in the IBM plug-compatible arena went, Memorex was pretty large. We had an IBM shop at Washington University, but after the CPUs, practically the whole room went to Memorex-supported gear. They get 3330-compatible drives, later upgraded to 3350-compatible, and maybe later upgraded again. They used Memorex 3674 controllers (they had 2 of them). They had at least one Memorex 1270 com controller. They had two 370/145s with AMS/Intersil 1 Meg memory units, installed and supported by Memorex. I can't recall specifics, but I think there were other memorex units there, too. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 19 00:14:57 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 22:14:57 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <562465F9.6060407@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> <562465F9.6060407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56247C51.7010004@sydex.com> On 10/18/2015 08:39 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > As 3rd party vendors in the IBM plug-compatible arena went, Memorex > was pretty large. We had an IBM shop at Washington University, but > after the CPUs, practically the whole room went to Memorex-supported > gear. They get 3330-compatible drives, later upgraded to > 3350-compatible, and maybe later upgraded again. They used Memorex > 3674 controllers (they had 2 of them). They had at least one Memorex > 1270 com controller. They had two 370/145s with AMS/Intersil 1 Meg > memory units, installed and supported by Memorex. I can't recall > specifics, but I think there were other memorex units there, too. I had a friend who worked for Telex back in day; she lost her job when Telex girded itself for the legal dustup against IBM. (Telex sued IBM for anti-competitive practices; IBM countersued for copyright infringement.) This was back in the day that it seemed that everyone was suing IBM. Telex was acquired by Memorex back in the 80s. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 19 00:40:04 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:40:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: <56240073.40203@charter.net> References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <56240073.40203@charter.net> Message-ID: <20179530.724.1445233204242.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Hi If the terminal is rs232 get a break out box if you don't already have one. If terminal plug is a 25way D type connect pins 2 and 3 then see if you get an echo back. Some times the terminal looks for a control signal but 99% of the time pins 2,3 and 7 (ground) are all you need Speed, parity and stop bits are probably ok if the terminal was part of the system The BOB will tell you if the CPU serial port is alive. LEDS on pins 2 and 3 should be on. Once the terminal is running then you should get some kind of response from the system. Rod ----Original message---- >From : cube1 at charter.net Date : 18/10/2015 - 20:26 (UTC) To : cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject : Re: Data General NOVA 4/C help On 10/18/2015 1:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Thanks Jay and Rod, > > you gave me a lot of pointers to check. I agree that getting > a console working is on top of the todo list. However, I better > put on old clothes for next Saturday. I want to have at least > a look at the head lock and shipping bracket, but do not want > to remove the disk out of the rack again. Although I can lift > it on my own, I did feel my back that evening :-/ > So, it will be sliding out the drive and then crawl under it, > laying on the floor removing the bottom cover ... > Yup. I know that drill only too well. > Haven't thought about looking in the eclipse folder on bitsavers! > Gonna look for that Virtual Console. The papers that came with > the system tell about a single letter to start the application, > not xxxxxL, so there might be a console ROM. > I can probe the header pins on the "multiplexer" paddle board > to which the terminal connects with a "BERG" header. There are > just 3 wires, so that must be RxD, TxD and GND. > > tnx! > - Henk > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 02:30:00 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:30:00 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis Message-ID: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> These are the cards in the DecServer 550. Looks to be an expansion chassis with 108 ports or so. Thanks Jim Photos of the DecServer 550 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hQ2lsc2lqS3VHd0U&usp=sharing From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 19 02:42:21 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:42:21 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm /P On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:30:00AM -0700, jwsmobile wrote: > > These are the cards in the DecServer 550. Looks to be an expansion > chassis with 108 ports or so. > > Thanks > Jim > > Photos of the DecServer 550 > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hQ2lsc2lqS3VHd0U&usp=sharing > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 02:57:19 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:57:19 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5624A25F.9000205@jwsss.com> On 10/19/2015 12:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in > the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a > PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. > > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm > > /P Thanks for the link. I've already been analyzing that. Tomorrow will pull it out, clean it off and see what more details can be had. The KDJ was an interesting surprise. We may have enough to do the conversion talked about in the articles he has, but they aren't for the faint hearted w/o reading all that he has there. We may have the RQ controller which is pretty much an essential bit to have. The disk drive is another matter. Will take some rummaging around to find a suitable candidate. Thanks Jim > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:30:00AM -0700, jwsmobile wrote: >> These are the cards in the DecServer 550. Looks to be an expansion >> chassis with 108 ports or so. >> >> Thanks >> Jim >> >> Photos of the DecServer 550 >> >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hQ2lsc2lqS3VHd0U&usp=sharing >> >> > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 19 04:29:03 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:29:03 +0100 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5624B7DF.8000200@btinternet.com> Its a terminal concentrator. I have a load of those 8 and 16 line cards. They would have fanned out to via splitter cables to back /front panels with 9/25 way D connectors. They look in a bit of a sorry state. I would not apply power or plug into any other chassis. Rod On 19/10/2015 08:30, jwsmobile wrote: > > These are the cards in the DecServer 550. Looks to be an expansion > chassis with 108 ports or so. > > Thanks > Jim > > Photos of the DecServer 550 > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hQ2lsc2lqS3VHd0U&usp=sharing > > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Oct 19 05:40:08 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:40:08 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> At 11:08 PM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote: >>On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. >>> >>>Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, >>>ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. >> >>I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit >>smaller now with the latest code. Not significantly. Small enough to be much less likely to run out of memory even with multiple 2-page handlers installed, but certainly not small enough to allow it to run in 16K, for example. The loader map says: 70000 = 1ST FREE LOCATION That means that it uses up all of 28K (with FRTS) without any device drivers installed. If it was possible to bum another couple of pages it might be possible to get it to work with 28K, but currently it won't. 32K is required for it to work. As always with trying to make code more compact, the more times you go back to try to shrink things the harder it gets. I haven't tried for several years, however. >That would be interesting to check out. You know where I could find it? http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 06:03:24 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:03:24 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 12:40, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 11:08 PM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote: >>> On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. >>>> >>>> Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, >>>> ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. >>> >>> I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit >>> smaller now with the latest code. > > Not significantly. Small enough to be much less likely to run out of > memory even with multiple 2-page handlers installed, but certainly not > small enough to allow it to run in 16K, for example. > > The loader map says: > 70000 = 1ST FREE LOCATION > > That means that it uses up all of 28K (with FRTS) without any device > drivers installed. If it was possible to bum another couple of pages it > might be possible to get it to work with 28K, but currently it won't. > 32K is required for it to work. As always with trying to make code more > compact, the more times you go back to try to shrink things the harder > it gets. I haven't tried for several years, however. Unless I remember wrong, the space for device drivers is already reserved in FRTS...? Device handlers always sits in field 0. Thus, they cannot really be loaded dynamically, and certainly not beyond the top of the program. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 06:07:20 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:07:20 +0200 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5624CEE8.5010602@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 13:03, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-19 12:40, Rick Murphy wrote: >> At 11:08 PM 10/18/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2015-10-19 04:58, ben wrote: >>>> On 10/18/2015 8:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>>> thus making it also able to run under MULTOS-8. >>>>> >>>>> Memory requirements and availability is a different story, but yes, >>>>> ADVENT will require the full 32K, as far as I remember. >>>> >>>> I think a few changes where made a few years back, It could be a bit >>>> smaller now with the latest code. >> >> Not significantly. Small enough to be much less likely to run out of >> memory even with multiple 2-page handlers installed, but certainly not >> small enough to allow it to run in 16K, for example. >> >> The loader map says: >> 70000 = 1ST FREE LOCATION >> >> That means that it uses up all of 28K (with FRTS) without any device >> drivers installed. If it was possible to bum another couple of pages it >> might be possible to get it to work with 28K, but currently it won't. >> 32K is required for it to work. As always with trying to make code more >> compact, the more times you go back to try to shrink things the harder >> it gets. I haven't tried for several years, however. > > Unless I remember wrong, the space for device drivers is already > reserved in FRTS...? > Device handlers always sits in field 0. Thus, they cannot really be > loaded dynamically, and certainly not beyond the top of the program. (And to clarify myself, by dynamically I mean that you could just allocate random memory somewhere, and load a device driver in there. They have to be in field 0, and you need to more carefully manage memory in field 0 for that, and other reasons.) By the way, could you describe how you managed to squeeze some memory from ADVENT? And if the first free location is 70000, then it sounds like it would be possible to run in 28K. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Mon Oct 19 09:05:54 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:05:54 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> Hey Guys-- Sorry for the delay getting this out there. I finally found the documentation package I had put together back in 2010 and it's now on my GDrive here, https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6A73VHTVh23MS1MVERNcUZkd1U The photos are of the 10-hole punch. We also did a 16-hole as Dwight has mentioned and he as a few of those still available. Dwight, I double checked the metal and we're both mis-remembering. It's not aluminum or stainless but just tool steel that Russ polished. You can stick a magnet to it. Therefore, probably keep these out of the humidity or they will rust. I also put the latest copy of the user instructions along with photos. We may have updated that document later but this was the only copy I could find here. Chris On Friday (10/16/2015 at 01:00PM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (10/16/2015 at 08:53AM -0700), Chris Osborn wrote: > > > > On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:18 AM, dwight wrote: > > > > > I do still have some 16 hole 5-1/4 punches left. ( anyone want one? ) > > > > I?d love to see a picture of one just to see how it was made and how it clamps to the disk. > > I will take some photos later today and round up some of the documentation > we had for them and then send another note with links to same. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Mon Oct 19 09:16:21 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:16:21 -0500 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151019141621.GI28547@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (10/18/2015 at 03:26PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > >I can see that Antenna Farms is an older term, dating back to at least 1950, > >but of course as antenna's are usually in fields.. > > It gradually evolved from agricultural to ANYTHING, > and then from fields to ANY space. > > > Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING? It's part of the name of the tower facility and the company that owns the towers here in Minneapolis where ALL of the TV transmitters for the Twin Cities are located, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefarm_Towers_Shoreview I'm also familiar with the term as it relates to employment. Eg, "I lost my engineering job when it got farmed out to India". -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:20:48 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Chris Elmquist wrote: > The photos are of the 10-hole punch. We also did a 16-hole as Dwight > has mentioned and he as a few of those still available. > > Dwight, I double checked the metal and we're both mis-remembering. > It's not aluminum or stainless but just tool steel that Russ polished. > You can stick a magnet to it. Therefore, probably keep these out of > the humidity or they will rust. Very timely. I had an occasion to drag out my 10-hole punch yesterday and modify a couple of diskettes for my N*. The first time around I had a lot of tearing that resulted in the dreaded "hanging chads". When I took a close look at the die plate I noticed an irregular raised burr around all the holes. After taking some fine-grit sandpaper to the surface and leveling the holes it started working a lot better. Maybe this will be helpful to other users. -- From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 19 09:27:10 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:27:10 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: References: <561FC386.3050703@charter.net> <001201d106c5$be1646f0$3a42d4d0$@classiccmp.org> <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <003f01d10a7a$3e00e930$ba02bb90$@classiccmp.org> We need to be able to do 32 sector 8" floppies :) J From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 19 09:32:04 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:32:04 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in > the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a > PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. It's been a while, but I think it may be a member of the "pluto" family. The original plan for terminal servers was that they would run CTERM. But the initial Pluto terminal server was incredibly slow, not surprising given how complex that protocol is. So an AD project was started which created LAT, originally also in a PDP-11 processor (perhaps even the same one, I forgot). And that turned out to be so superior in practice that it ended up being the main product instead of the original plan. But we still have CTERM as a leftover from all this. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 09:32:37 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:32:37 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in > the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a > PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. -ethan From chrise at pobox.com Mon Oct 19 09:35:25 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:35:25 -0500 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: References: <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20151019143525.GJ28547@n0jcf.net> On Monday (10/19/2015 at 10:20AM -0400), Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > >The photos are of the 10-hole punch. We also did a 16-hole as Dwight > >has mentioned and he as a few of those still available. > > > >Dwight, I double checked the metal and we're both mis-remembering. > >It's not aluminum or stainless but just tool steel that Russ polished. > >You can stick a magnet to it. Therefore, probably keep these out of > >the humidity or they will rust. > > Very timely. I had an occasion to drag out my 10-hole punch yesterday and > modify a couple of diskettes for my N*. The first time around I had a lot > of tearing that resulted in the dreaded "hanging chads". When I took a > close look at the die plate I noticed an irregular raised burr around all > the holes. After taking some fine-grit sandpaper to the surface and > leveling the holes it started working a lot better. > > Maybe this will be helpful to other users. Yes. Thanks Steven. The whole project was an experiment no doubt. In the end, I think we pushed the limits of my buddy's prototype machine shop, asking him to make the quantity of these that he did. This resulted in some quality issues such as you have found, where basically, he got bored with all the detail work finishing them to perfection. It quickly changed from being fun to being work and for hobby stuff, I think we all understand what that means. If we were to do these again, today, we'd need to farm out the work to a production shop for better, more reproducible results I think. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Oct 19 09:56:50 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Unless I remember wrong, the space for device drivers is already reserved in > FRTS...? Yes. For normal device assignment, you use the command decoder to assign unit numbers to files, which loads the handlers for same. Adventure uses the USR routines written by Robert Phelps, which allows it to dynamically load a driver into memory and open a file at run time. Space for those handlers is allocated just above the FRTS allocation. -Rick From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 11:17:27 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:17:27 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. > > It's been a while, but I think it may be a member of the "pluto" family. The original plan for terminal servers was that they would run CTERM. But the initial Pluto terminal server was incredibly slow, not surprising given how complex that protocol is. So an AD project was started which created LAT, originally also in a PDP-11 processor (perhaps even the same one, I forgot). And that turned out to be so superior in practice that it ended up being the main product instead of the original plan. But we still have CTERM as a leftover from all this. Yeah, that should be PLUTO. It's based on RSX, and talks LAT. I never knew that they considered using CTERM (a horrible protocol). The interface in PLUTO, once it has booted, is pretty much like other DECservers, as far as I understand. But they were larger, more flexible, and so on, than later DECserver models, since they were built on PDP-11s in a Qbus chassis. Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 11:28:48 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 09:28:48 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to normal PDP11 eproms. The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate eproms and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it from where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested before being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the place that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. thanks for all the suggestions and observations. Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. Jim On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. > Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen > to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. > > One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD > up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. > > -ethan > > From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 12:03:02 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:03:02 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> Not sure what you expect a "conversion" means. Creating new PROMs imply finding actual proms, a prom programmer, the code to program into the PROMs, and then just replace the proms on the card. Only the last piece will actually require any modification of the card, and I would expect them to be socketed anyway, so replacing means just removing the old proms, and inserting the new ones. The note also mentioned that you might want/need to install a pull-up. But it would still be an extremely simple process. You just need the right bits... Johnny On 2015-10-19 18:28, jwsmobile wrote: > I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to normal > PDP11 eproms. > > The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster > had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. > > I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate eproms > and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. > > As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it from > where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested before > being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for > reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the place > that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. > > Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. > > thanks for all the suggestions and observations. > > Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were > heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. > > Jim > > On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >> wrote: >>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. >> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >> >> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD >> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >> >> -ethan >> >> > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Oct 19 12:04:03 2015 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:04:03 -0500 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? Message-ID: <43B907B2101F41FAB2675691CBFD200A@CharlesHPLaptop> My reply didn?t show up for some reason... resubmitting: It should directly in TSX-Plus . Make sure your current memory limit is 56K. See below for my attempt. BTW TSX should only use RT11 to ?boot?. TSX doesn?t run over RT11SJ in this version. TSX replaces all the OS code. .sh memory ?... Current job memory limit = 56Kb Maximum job memory limit = 64Kb .sh ver 6.20 .run advent WELCOME TO ADVENTURE!! WOULD YOU LIKE INSTRUCTIONS? ----------------------- It turns out I have (at least the pack that?s in the drive) TSX-Plus 6.16, not 6.50. But ADVENT does work now. I have to admit to ?operator error? The bootable XM pack is currently in drive 0, and the bootable SJ pack with TSX-Plus is in drive 1. Somehow I?d forgotten to copy one of the ADVENT files from one pack to the other. So when I rebooted from DL1: it couldn?t find ADVTXT and crashed! Anyhow it does now run (on both the console and the other time-sharing terminal). Thanks for the information, though. -Charles From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 19 12:10:34 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:10:34 -0600 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5625240A.3070105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/19/2015 8:56 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > > On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Unless I remember wrong, the space for device drivers is already >> reserved in FRTS...? > > Yes. For normal device assignment, you use the command decoder to assign > unit numbers to files, which loads the handlers for same. > > Adventure uses the USR routines written by Robert Phelps, which allows > it to dynamically load a driver into memory and open a file at run time. > Space for those handlers is allocated just above the FRTS allocation. > -Rick > Since the original email was running simh, does not the emulator have the hardware floating point as a option, so you can free up a bit more memory?. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 19 12:14:17 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:14:17 -0600 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? In-Reply-To: <43B907B2101F41FAB2675691CBFD200A@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <43B907B2101F41FAB2675691CBFD200A@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <562524E9.5020809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/19/2015 11:04 AM, Charles wrote: > > Anyhow it does now run (on both the console and the other time-sharing > terminal). Thanks for the information, though. > > -Charles Did advent run under PDP11 unix? Ben. From wulfman at wulfman.com Mon Oct 19 12:16:38 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:16:38 -0700 Subject: IBM 1401 Message-ID: <56252576.7050806@wulfman.com> there is a cool video in the hackaday link below http://hackaday.com/2015/10/19/repairing-55000-of-vintage-core-memory/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 19 12:20:05 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:20:05 -0700 Subject: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout In-Reply-To: <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> References: <000001d10932$8e918010$abb48030$@classiccmp.org> <5622DA08.9000201@sydex.com> <5623EA4C.4000508@sydex.com> <56241326.5020009@sydex.com> <562423B2.6090403@gmail.com> <562440C9.20808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56252645.3050304@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/15 6:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > it's truly amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation. > Thank Ella Fitzgerald "Is it live, or is it Memorex" http://www.totalmedia.com/content/trivia-and-tips/maxells-chair-man-hell-blow-you-away-part-1.html From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 19 12:42:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 13:42:56 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> > On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-10-19 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. >> >> It's been a while, but I think it may be a member of the "pluto" family. The original plan for terminal servers was that they would run CTERM. But the initial Pluto terminal server was incredibly slow, not surprising given how complex that protocol is. So an AD project was started which created LAT, originally also in a PDP-11 processor (perhaps even the same one, I forgot). And that turned out to be so superior in practice that it ended up being the main product instead of the original plan. But we still have CTERM as a leftover from all this. > > Yeah, that should be PLUTO. > It's based on RSX, and talks LAT. I never knew that they considered using CTERM (a horrible protocol). Oh yes... and I think the original PLUTO was an 11/23, which would certainly explain why it had performance issues. CTERM was an attempt to wrap a single protocol around the terribly inconsistent semantics of the terminal drivers in all the DEC operating systems, and to export as much as possible to the server end. In other words, the goal of the protocol was to be line oriented as much as possible. That meant, for example, exporting the command line editing machinery to the server. That doesn't seem so bad until you realize that the server has to be told a whole lot about what is going on at the client in order to do that. The eventual goal was to have not just command line mode but also other modes, like screen editing mode (think distributed EDT). That's why there are two layers, with the foundation layer common to all modes, and Cterm the first of the modes to be defined. Some example of the complexities: the ability to define what characters are line edings; immediate vs. delayed echo; command line completion in TOPS-20; and so on. When the dust settled, the 36 bit machines were starting to disappear around this time, and management was trying to do similar things to PDP11s in general and non-RSX in particular, so CTerm ended up being really just a ridiculously complex way of doing what the old VMS terminal protocol did just as well. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 13:30:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:30:11 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <562536B3.8060508@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 19:42, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-10-19 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >>>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. >>> >>> It's been a while, but I think it may be a member of the "pluto" family. The original plan for terminal servers was that they would run CTERM. But the initial Pluto terminal server was incredibly slow, not surprising given how complex that protocol is. So an AD project was started which created LAT, originally also in a PDP-11 processor (perhaps even the same one, I forgot). And that turned out to be so superior in practice that it ended up being the main product instead of the original plan. But we still have CTERM as a leftover from all this. >> >> Yeah, that should be PLUTO. >> It's based on RSX, and talks LAT. I never knew that they considered using CTERM (a horrible protocol). > > Oh yes... and I think the original PLUTO was an 11/23, which would certainly explain why it had performance issues. > > CTERM was an attempt to wrap a single protocol around the terribly inconsistent semantics of the terminal drivers in all the DEC operating systems, and to export as much as possible to the server end. In other words, the goal of the protocol was to be line oriented as much as possible. That meant, for example, exporting the command line editing machinery to the server. That doesn't seem so bad until you realize that the server has to be told a whole lot about what is going on at the client in order to do that. The eventual goal was to have not just command line mode but also other modes, like screen editing mode (think distributed EDT). That's why there are two layers, with the foundation layer common to all modes, and Cterm the first of the modes to be defined. > > Some example of the complexities: the ability to define what characters are line edings; immediate vs. delayed echo; command line completion in TOPS-20; and so on. > > When the dust settled, the 36 bit machines were starting to disappear around this time, and management was trying to do similar things to PDP11s in general and non-RSX in particular, so CTerm ended up being really just a ridiculously complex way of doing what the old VMS terminal protocol did just as well. An interesting way to describe it. I've always looked at CTERM as an RPC service that essentially have all the functions of the VMS terminal driver. Makes it easy to implement in VMS, as you have a 1:1 mapping. Makes it horrible for everyone else, since other systems do not have the same functionality in the terminal driver, and now have to implement all the remote procedure calls of the VMS terminal driver, and somehow map that into how the native terminal driver works... Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 19 13:37:08 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? Message-ID: <20151019183708.4AACE18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Franchuk > Did advent run under PDP11 unix? There was a version on the V6 PDP11 Unix at MIT; not sure if that was a local port, or one we picked up from somewhere else. Noel From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Oct 19 13:38:18 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:38:18 -0700 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <015d01d10a9d$52f1da20$f8d58e60$@computer.org> Definitely recall "disk farm" being used at Pan American Airways data center in the early 1970s, perhaps earlier to describe other large IBM/Memorex customers. The term appears in print in a 1983 Datamation and a 1989 Compaq product brochure Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 1:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "Farm" slang terms On 10/18/2015 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Later, it began to be used for moderately open land, with collections > of other stuff, such as a group of windmills became a "wind farm" > (Altamont pass). I recall a room full of a hundred or more disk drives being referred to as a disk farm--but I don't think the usage was standard. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 19 13:43:30 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:43:30 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <562536B3.8060508@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> <562536B3.8060508@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-10-19 19:42, Paul Koning wrote: >> ... >> CTERM was an attempt to wrap a single protocol around the terribly inconsistent semantics of the terminal drivers in all the DEC operating systems, and to export as much as possible to the server end. ... > > An interesting way to describe it. > I've always looked at CTERM as an RPC service that essentially have all the functions of the VMS terminal driver. Makes it easy to implement in VMS, as you have a 1:1 mapping. Makes it horrible for everyone else, since other systems do not have the same functionality in the terminal driver, and now have to implement all the remote procedure calls of the VMS terminal driver, and somehow map that into how the native terminal driver works... You can certainly view it as an RPC, and given that Cterm ended up basically doing VMS, looking at it as the RPC version of the VMS terminal driver is reasonably accurate. But the original version aimed to support both VMS and TOPS-20 as primary clients, and other operating systems as well. So it was supposed to be an RPC version of the union of all terminal drivers. Which means that a full CTERM server (as opposed to client) would be hard to do for everyone, even VMS. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 13:46:56 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:46:56 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> <562536B3.8060508@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56253AA0.5030709@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 20:43, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-10-19 19:42, Paul Koning wrote: >>> ... >>> CTERM was an attempt to wrap a single protocol around the terribly inconsistent semantics of the terminal drivers in all the DEC operating systems, and to export as much as possible to the server end. ... >> >> An interesting way to describe it. >> I've always looked at CTERM as an RPC service that essentially have all the functions of the VMS terminal driver. Makes it easy to implement in VMS, as you have a 1:1 mapping. Makes it horrible for everyone else, since other systems do not have the same functionality in the terminal driver, and now have to implement all the remote procedure calls of the VMS terminal driver, and somehow map that into how the native terminal driver works... > > You can certainly view it as an RPC, and given that Cterm ended up basically doing VMS, looking at it as the RPC version of the VMS terminal driver is reasonably accurate. But the original version aimed to support both VMS and TOPS-20 as primary clients, and other operating systems as well. So it was supposed to be an RPC version of the union of all terminal drivers. Which means that a full CTERM server (as opposed to client) would be hard to do for everyone, even VMS. The amount of swearwords from TOPS-20 people exceed all others combined, in my experience. So if they intended CTERM to be something reasonable for TOPS-20 it was an utter failure. :-) And it's really silly and sad, considering that something like telnet is very simple and straight forward, and can be done right on both VMS and TOPS-20, and will in the end work much better for people connecting from one to the other, than using CTERM... (I have the same issues with CTERM under RSX. telnet makes so much more sense.) Johnny From db at db.net Mon Oct 19 13:51:35 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:51:35 -0400 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? In-Reply-To: <20151019183708.4AACE18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151019183708.4AACE18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20151019185135.GB24961@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 02:37:08PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > > > Did advent run under PDP11 unix? > > There was a version on the V6 PDP11 Unix at MIT; not sure if that was a local > port, or one we picked up from somewhere else. There was a hack for PDP11 Unix which added RT-11 compatibility syscalls to the kernel. (UofT Spencer) Thus games compiled for RT-11 would run on PDP-11 and VAX-11 (in PDP-11 compatilibty mode) Unix. > > Noel > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:54:19 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:54:19 -0400 Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? In-Reply-To: <20151019185135.GB24961@night.db.net> References: <20151019183708.4AACE18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20151019185135.GB24961@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > There was a hack for PDP11 Unix which added RT-11 compatibility syscalls > to the kernel. (UofT Spencer) Thus games compiled for RT-11 would > run on PDP-11 and VAX-11 (in PDP-11 compatilibty mode) Unix. Ooh... I'd love to see that. I've fiddled a lot with RT-11 and VAX UNIX (Ultrix and Sys V), and some with 2.9BSD on the PDP-11. Could be fun to cross those streams. Is that still floating around anywhere? -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 19 13:55:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system? Message-ID: <20151019185518.A4DF318C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Diane Bruce >> There was a version on the V6 PDP11 Unix at MIT; not sure if that was >> a local port, or one we picked up from somewhere else. > There was a hack for PDP11 Unix which added RT-11 compatibility > syscalls to the kernel. (UofT Spencer) The PDP-11 Unix machines are Tech Sq definitely did not have that; it would have run on standard Unix (although it may have included an RT11 emulator in the application - I don't at the moment have access to all that MIT stuff - yet!) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 19 13:55:24 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:55:24 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56253AA0.5030709@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251797.6040005@update.uu.se> <3C62C89D-C957-4D5E-BB98-CE506AF3AC0A@comcast.net> <562536B3.8060508@update.uu.se> <56253AA0.5030709@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <77E76F3C-33B9-4070-A474-168F489374A1@comcast.net> > On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-10-19 20:43, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:30 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-10-19 19:42, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> ... >>>> CTERM was an attempt to wrap a single protocol around the terribly inconsistent semantics of the terminal drivers in all the DEC operating systems, and to export as much as possible to the server end. ... >>> >>> An interesting way to describe it. >>> I've always looked at CTERM as an RPC service that essentially have all the functions of the VMS terminal driver. Makes it easy to implement in VMS, as you have a 1:1 mapping. Makes it horrible for everyone else, since other systems do not have the same functionality in the terminal driver, and now have to implement all the remote procedure calls of the VMS terminal driver, and somehow map that into how the native terminal driver works... >> >> You can certainly view it as an RPC, and given that Cterm ended up basically doing VMS, looking at it as the RPC version of the VMS terminal driver is reasonably accurate. But the original version aimed to support both VMS and TOPS-20 as primary clients, and other operating systems as well. So it was supposed to be an RPC version of the union of all terminal drivers. Which means that a full CTERM server (as opposed to client) would be hard to do for everyone, even VMS. > > The amount of swearwords from TOPS-20 people exceed all others combined, in my experience. So if they intended CTERM to be something reasonable for TOPS-20 it was an utter failure. :-) Yes. > And it's really silly and sad, considering that something like telnet is very simple and straight forward, and can be done right on both VMS and TOPS-20, and will in the end work much better for people connecting from one to the other, than using CTERM... > (I have the same issues with CTERM under RSX. telnet makes so much more sense.) Sure, telnet in character mode (not line mode) works for everyone because it doesn't try to export any real work to the server end. For the same reason, the older remote terminal protocols (the set of 4, before Cterm was perpetrated) work great. Those simply export primitives suitable for the OS in question. Simple line mode with the ability to switch to character mode for RSTS, character mode all the time for TOPS-20, and a much simpler RSX and VMS terminal driver QIO RPC for those two operating systems. All these are so easy that RSTS can implement them all, quite unlike Cterm. paul From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:57:23 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:57:23 -0400 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I have a decserver 550 CPU converted to a real KDJ. It's as simple as new ROMS and one resistor. I also removed the s-box bracket to fit my chassis. Runs BSD 2.11 just fine (RQDX3 disks) Joe > On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:28 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to normal PDP11 eproms. > > The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. > > I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate eproms and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. > > As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it from where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested before being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the place that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. > > Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. > > thanks for all the suggestions and observations. > > Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. > > Jim > >> On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in >>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. >> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >> >> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD >> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >> >> -ethan >> >> > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 13:57:30 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:57:30 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> On 10/19/2015 10:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Not sure what you expect a "conversion" means. Creating new PROMs > imply finding actual proms, a prom programmer, the code to program > into the PROMs, and then just replace the proms on the card. > Only the last piece will actually require any modification of the > card, and I would expect them to be socketed anyway, so replacing > means just removing the old proms, and inserting the new ones. > That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide them. I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate copies. I didn't post the original link from the top of this thread, you might want to read it. I'm just stating what someone did back in the 2001 time frame and posted a page about the conversion and info on his experiences. > The note also mentioned that you might want/need to install a pull-up. > But it would still be an extremely simple process. You just need the > right bits... > What I said. > Johnny > > On 2015-10-19 18:28, jwsmobile wrote: >> I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to normal >> PDP11 eproms. >> >> The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster >> had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. >> >> I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate eproms >> and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. >> >> As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it from >> where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested before >> being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for >> reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the place >> that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. >> >> Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. >> >> thanks for all the suggestions and observations. >> >> Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were >> heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. >> >> Jim >> >> On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>> wrote: >>>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big >>>> brother in >>>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty >>>> nice. >>> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >>> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >>> >>> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD >>> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >>> >>> -ethan >>> >>> >> > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 14:03:40 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:03:40 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:57 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a > DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide > them. > > I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate copies. > The 23-261E5 / 23-262E5 firmware images for the M7554 11/53 are available on Pete's DECROM archive. http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 14:24:15 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:24:15 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5625435F.8030500@jwsss.com> On 10/19/2015 12:03 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 11:57 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a >> DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide >> them. >> >> I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate copies. >> > The 23-261E5 / 23-262E5 firmware images for the M7554 11/53 are > available on Pete's DECROM archive. > > http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ > > Thanks, Glen! From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 14:39:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:39:33 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> Well, you did ask for "thoughts in the conversion", so I gave you mine. Sorry if you felt they were unhelpful. I just thought the "conversion" was basically a no-work. Programming proms is something I have spent more time than I can count on, and is so routine that I don't even think about it. Johnny On 2015-10-19 20:57, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 10/19/2015 10:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Not sure what you expect a "conversion" means. Creating new PROMs >> imply finding actual proms, a prom programmer, the code to program >> into the PROMs, and then just replace the proms on the card. >> Only the last piece will actually require any modification of the >> card, and I would expect them to be socketed anyway, so replacing >> means just removing the old proms, and inserting the new ones. >> > That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a > DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide > them. > > I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate copies. > > I didn't post the original link from the top of this thread, you might > want to read it. I'm just stating what someone did back in the 2001 > time frame and posted a page about the conversion and info on his > experiences. > >> The note also mentioned that you might want/need to install a pull-up. >> But it would still be an extremely simple process. You just need the >> right bits... >> > What I said. >> Johnny >> >> On 2015-10-19 18:28, jwsmobile wrote: >>> I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to normal >>> PDP11 eproms. >>> >>> The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster >>> had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. >>> >>> I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate eproms >>> and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. >>> >>> As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it from >>> where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested before >>> being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for >>> reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the place >>> that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. >>> >>> Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. >>> >>> thanks for all the suggestions and observations. >>> >>> Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were >>> heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>>> wrote: >>>>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big >>>>> brother in >>>>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>>>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty >>>>> nice. >>>> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >>>> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >>>> >>>> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD >>>> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >>>> >>>> -ethan >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 14:43:45 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:43:45 -0700 Subject: Archeological dig, update Sun 4/260 Message-ID: <562547F1.5010609@jwsss.com> Word comes in that there is a number of "cartons" of Sun 4 and HP QIC tapes in the pile, which I'm hoping may be install media. Bad news is that it is QIC and in the place it is in. Good news is that it surfaced at all. I will see if Al or someone can image them if they are of interest. The HP tapes may just be brand names and not software, unknown at this time. Also there are some half inch 9 and 7 track tapes in the pile. The dig also turned up Sunsoft manual sets, which are promising as far as the 4/260 is concerned. Suggests that the software and manuals are for that system and not another. Once I get an inventory of the tapes, I'd appreciate any updates as to whether they are already imaged and saved somewhere. thanks Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 19 15:43:06 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:43:06 +0100 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <5625435F.8030500@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> <5625435F.8030500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <562555DA.2050909@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/10/2015 20:24, jwsmobile wrote: > On 10/19/2015 12:03 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> The 23-261E5 / 23-262E5 firmware images for the M7554 11/53 are >> available on Pete's DECROM archive. >> >> http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ > Thanks, Glen! Glen beat me to it :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 19 16:11:58 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 14:11:58 -0700 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56255C9E.9030506@jwsss.com> On 10/19/2015 12:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Well, you did ask for "thoughts in the conversion", so I gave you > mine. Sorry if you felt they were unhelpful. I just thought the > "conversion" was basically a no-work. Programming proms is something I > have spent more time than I can count on, and is so routine that I > don't even think about it. > I didn't mean that in disrespect. The contents of what I posted was on the page and I basically needed the binaries and needed some direction as to which went where. I appreciate you taking time to reply, but am coming from a lot less capability than you have. I do a lot of computing and the like, but I've purposely not kept up with eprom technology to the point that i can't reliably swear I can program them right now. There are only so many things one can keep up with and eproms were not one that was cheap to follow, and I was more into EE type devices anyway. I may need a favor by swapping you some of my eproms (I have a 12" x 12" x 12" box of pulls) maybe to get you to make me a set for my board. I've pulled out probably 500 and returned them to the original owner and owe him more. but I do probably have a lot of the 27xx proms. Do you think these are 27C or just straight 27 type eproms, and if so what speeds? That is what I need to know too. thanks Jim > Johnny > > On 2015-10-19 20:57, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> >> On 10/19/2015 10:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Not sure what you expect a "conversion" means. Creating new PROMs >>> imply finding actual proms, a prom programmer, the code to program >>> into the PROMs, and then just replace the proms on the card. >>> Only the last piece will actually require any modification of the >>> card, and I would expect them to be socketed anyway, so replacing >>> means just removing the old proms, and inserting the new ones. >>> >> That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a >> DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide >> them. >> >> I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate >> copies. >> >> I didn't post the original link from the top of this thread, you might >> want to read it. I'm just stating what someone did back in the 2001 >> time frame and posted a page about the conversion and info on his >> experiences. >> >>> The note also mentioned that you might want/need to install a pull-up. >>> But it would still be an extremely simple process. You just need the >>> right bits... >>> >> What I said. >>> Johnny >>> >>> On 2015-10-19 18:28, jwsmobile wrote: >>>> I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to >>>> normal >>>> PDP11 eproms. >>>> >>>> The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster >>>> had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. >>>> >>>> I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate >>>> eproms >>>> and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. >>>> >>>> As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it >>>> from >>>> where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested >>>> before >>>> being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for >>>> reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the >>>> place >>>> that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. >>>> >>>> Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. >>>> >>>> thanks for all the suggestions and observations. >>>> >>>> Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were >>>> heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big >>>>>> brother in >>>>>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>>>>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty >>>>>> nice. >>>>> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >>>>> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >>>>> >>>>> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring >>>>> 2.11BSD >>>>> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >>>>> >>>>> -ethan >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Oct 19 13:16:23 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:16:23 +0000 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> Hi there, I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal to use with my old systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I haven't managed to find anything locally. Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, garage sales, surplus shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of surprises me, as Toronto isn't a small town. Is there anybody around the Toronto area that has a few extra dumb terminals lying around, or does anybody know of a good source for them around the Toronto area? Thanks -Brian From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 17:11:42 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:11:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <5FFED441677943E7B2C178D6ADE979A7@310e2> I've got a few (ADM-11, several Falco models) but would have to check to see which ones (if any) are still working; if you're patient, contact me off-list. You could also have a look through A-1 Electronics on North Queen; never know what you'll find there. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Adams" To: Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:16 PM Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals Hi there, I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal to use with my old systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I haven't managed to find anything locally. Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, garage sales, surplus shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of surprises me, as Toronto isn't a small town. Is there anybody around the Toronto area that has a few extra dumb terminals lying around, or does anybody know of a good source for them around the Toronto area? Thanks -Brian From wulfman at wulfman.com Mon Oct 19 17:18:53 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:18:53 -0700 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <56256C4D.3070709@wulfman.com> a decent deal for a new terminal http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYSE-55-Terminal-NEW-Green-Terminal-/151828013094?hash=item2359a7a026:g:wPkAAOSwjVVVoAQY lot more used on ebay too On 10/19/2015 11:16 AM, Brian Adams wrote: > Hi there, > > I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal to use with my old systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I haven't managed to find anything locally. > Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, garage sales, surplus shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of surprises me, as Toronto isn't a small town. > > Is there anybody around the Toronto area that has a few extra dumb terminals lying around, or does anybody know of a good source for them around the Toronto area? > > Thanks > > -Brian > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From markwgreen at rogers.com Mon Oct 19 17:27:11 2015 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:27:11 -0400 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: I have a few extra VT 300s. I'm not sure of the exact model, I'll need to check on the weekend. I'm in Oshawa, contact me off line if interested. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 19, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Brian Adams wrote: > > Hi there, > > I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal to use with my old systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I haven't managed to find anything locally. > Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, garage sales, surplus shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of surprises me, as Toronto isn't a small town. > > Is there anybody around the Toronto area that has a few extra dumb terminals lying around, or does anybody know of a good source for them around the Toronto area? > > Thanks > > -Brian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 19 17:28:50 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:28:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals In-Reply-To: <5FFED441677943E7B2C178D6ADE979A7@310e2> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> <5FFED441677943E7B2C178D6ADE979A7@310e2> Message-ID: <56256EA2.9060305@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-19 6:11 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I've got a few (ADM-11, several Falco models) but would have to check to > see which ones (if any) are still working; if you're patient, contact me > off-list. > > You could also have a look through A-1 Electronics on North Queen; never > know what you'll find there. Is that the de-facto Active Surplus, now that they've shut down? :( --Toby > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Adams" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:16 PM > Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals > > > Hi there, > > I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal to use with my old > systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I haven't managed to find > anything locally. > Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, garage sales, surplus > shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of surprises me, as Toronto > isn't a small town. > > Is there anybody around the Toronto area that has a few extra dumb > terminals lying around, or does anybody know of a good source for them > around the Toronto area? > > Thanks > > -Brian > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 18:04:51 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:04:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> <5FFED441677943E7B2C178D6ADE979A7@310e2> <56256EA2.9060305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Looking for Serial Terminals > On 2015-10-19 6:11 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> I've got a few (ADM-11, several Falco models) >> but would have to check to >> see which ones (if any) are still working; if >> you're patient, contact me >> off-list. >> >> You could also have a look through A-1 >> Electronics on North Queen; never >> know what you'll find there. > > Is that the de-facto Active Surplus, now that > they've shut down? :( > > --Toby Pretty well, IMO; there's also Sayal for new stuff and of course Toronto Surplus if you're looking for something they've got and can afford it ;-) m ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> mike >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian >> Adams" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:16 PM >> Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals >> >> >> Hi there, >> >> I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal >> to use with my old >> systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I >> haven't managed to find >> anything locally. >> Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, >> garage sales, surplus >> shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of >> surprises me, as Toronto >> isn't a small town. >> >> Is there anybody around the Toronto area that >> has a few extra dumb >> terminals lying around, or does anybody know of >> a good source for them >> around the Toronto area? >> >> Thanks >> >> -Brian >> > From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 19 18:19:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 01:19:26 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56255C9E.9030506@jwsss.com> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> <56255C9E.9030506@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56257A7E.9060203@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-19 23:11, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 10/19/2015 12:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Well, you did ask for "thoughts in the conversion", so I gave you >> mine. Sorry if you felt they were unhelpful. I just thought the >> "conversion" was basically a no-work. Programming proms is something I >> have spent more time than I can count on, and is so routine that I >> don't even think about it. >> > I didn't mean that in disrespect. The contents of what I posted was on > the page and I basically needed the binaries and needed some direction > as to which went where. I appreciate you taking time to reply, but am > coming from a lot less capability than you have. I do a lot of > computing and the like, but I've purposely not kept up with eprom > technology to the point that i can't reliably swear I can program them > right now. > > There are only so many things one can keep up with and eproms were not > one that was cheap to follow, and I was more into EE type devices anyway. Well, EPROMs are getting sortof old fashioned nowadays. > I may need a favor by swapping you some of my eproms (I have a 12" x 12" > x 12" box of pulls) maybe to get you to make me a set for my board. Unfortunately all of my stuff in Sweden, while I nowadays live in Switzerland. So I could only possibly help out next summer. But I probably would have some 27256 around. > I've pulled out probably 500 and returned them to the original owner and > owe him more. but I do probably have a lot of the 27xx proms. > > Do you think these are 27C or just straight 27 type eproms, and if so > what speeds? That is what I need to know too. I normally don't care about that. The difference is in how you program them, and there are more variations than that. Fortunately my programmer knows a whole bunch of them, and also can autodetect the different models. But once they are programmed, the actual pins are the same, so speed is the only possible issue. But I think most of them are 125ns, which is fast enough anyway. I replaced the firmware in some 11/93 boards a few years ago. But I think I just reused the existing proms that time. But I don't have any 11/53 boards, so I can't do that here. Johnny > > thanks > Jim >> Johnny >> >> On 2015-10-19 20:57, jwsmobile wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 10/19/2015 10:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> Not sure what you expect a "conversion" means. Creating new PROMs >>>> imply finding actual proms, a prom programmer, the code to program >>>> into the PROMs, and then just replace the proms on the card. >>>> Only the last piece will actually require any modification of the >>>> card, and I would expect them to be socketed anyway, so replacing >>>> means just removing the old proms, and inserting the new ones. >>>> >>> That is basically what I said. I don't have one that isn't part of a >>> DecServer and i need images, or someone with a non DecServer to provide >>> them. >>> >>> I guess you restated what I said. if you have one, I'd appreciate >>> copies. >>> >>> I didn't post the original link from the top of this thread, you might >>> want to read it. I'm just stating what someone did back in the 2001 >>> time frame and posted a page about the conversion and info on his >>> experiences. >>> >>>> The note also mentioned that you might want/need to install a pull-up. >>>> But it would still be an extremely simple process. You just need the >>>> right bits... >>>> >>> What I said. >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>> On 2015-10-19 18:28, jwsmobile wrote: >>>>> I would appreciate thoughts on the conversion of the processor to >>>>> normal >>>>> PDP11 eproms. >>>>> >>>>> The page pointed to earlier has a mention of that too, but the poster >>>>> had access to another "real" KDJ and I am guessing copied that. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have access to any version of the system with appropriate >>>>> eproms >>>>> and would appreciate any pointers to the binaries needed. >>>>> >>>>> As to the condition most of the material is the result of moving it >>>>> from >>>>> where it was stored. It will be totally disassembled and tested >>>>> before >>>>> being brought back up. There is about 5 or 6 large deep freeze (for >>>>> reference) sized piles of material being sent for e-waste from the >>>>> place >>>>> that is pretty much just junk material under the weather. >>>>> >>>>> Think of this as a Dusenberg rescued from a barn though. >>>>> >>>>> thanks for all the suggestions and observations. >>>>> >>>>> Next thing to go over is a Sun 4/260 "mini" tower. Gads those were >>>>> heavy. Back is still aching from moving that. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> On 10/19/2015 7:32 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big >>>>>>> brother in >>>>>>> the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a >>>>>>> PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty >>>>>>> nice. >>>>>> Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen >>>>>> to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring >>>>>> 2.11BSD >>>>>> up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. >>>>>> >>>>>> -ethan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Oct 19 18:41:40 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:41:40 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <5624CEE8.5010602@update.uu.se> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> <5624CEE8.5010602@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201510192341.t9JNfgEd022853@rickmurphy.net> At 07:07 AM 10/19/2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: >By the way, could you describe how you managed to squeeze some memory >from ADVENT? And if the first free location is 70000, then it sounds >like it would be possible to run in 28K. The primary way to cut memory usage was recoding the main function (ADVENTURE is one huge Fortran module) to use more compact code. The "compiler" is a really dumb code generator on the back end of a parser, and emits a lot of redundant instructions and poor code sequences. For example, "J = J + 1" gets output as something like FLDA J FADD #LIT+xxxx (where the reference is to a literal with floating point value 1) FSTA J You can do that with two instructions: FLDA ONE FADDM J Putting common literals on the base page also makes the instruction stream shorter. Or, redundant loads like IF (DTOTAL .EQ. 0) GOTO 2000 IF (DTOTAL .EQ. 1) GOTO 74 Would emit FLDA DTOTAL JEQ #2000 FLDA DTOTAL FSUB #LIT+xxxx JEQ #75 That second FLDA can be dropped. Also, for small literals, the code K = 52 would compile to FLDA #LIT+xxxx FSTA K Replacing that with LDX 64,0 / put 52 (64 octal) into index register 0 XTA 0 FSTA K That's smaller, since you don't store a full float literal for 52 (3 words), and the LDX/XTA is more compact. Lots and lots of fun like that. What an space optimizer would do if there was one. :) I don't know how close this is to falling below the 28K boundary, but it's just barely made the 70000 limit. It's entirely possible that you could get ADVENT to run on a 28K system if you only used resident drivers (SYS, for example..) but that would require changes to the USR.RA code to configure it to expect only 28K. Basically, I'm out of ideas for continuing bumming of space and didn't think 28K versus 32K was all that big a deal. (i.e. I don't think there's many machines at the 28K limit. Now if it was close to working on 16K it would be worth another major pass.) -Rick From chd at chdickman.com Mon Oct 19 18:43:30 2015 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:43:30 -0400 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING? FARMING hasn't declined, only the number of farmers. (Not a farmer, but surrounded by them.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 19 19:04:26 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING? On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Charles Dickman wrote: > FARMING hasn't declined, only the number of farmers. > (Not a farmer, but surrounded by them.) Is modern "agribusiness" really "farming"? From chd at chdickman.com Mon Oct 19 20:05:00 2015 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:05:00 -0400 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 8:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Does it correlate with the decline of actual FARMING? > > > On Mon, 19 Oct 2015, Charles Dickman wrote: >> >> FARMING hasn't declined, only the number of farmers. >> (Not a farmer, but surrounded by them.) > > > Is modern "agribusiness" really "farming"? At the risk of drifting FAR OT... The farmers I know aren't any different than thier grandfathers. Modern technology just makes them much more productive. From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Oct 19 20:27:39 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:27:39 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <5625240A.3070105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201510170303.t9H33sDV031419@rickmurphy.net> <20151017172250.GB25937@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <201510181037.t9IAb4R8002982@rickmurphy.net> <56239270.6000803@update.uu.se> <201510190104.t9J14ldB031142@rickmurphy.net> <562458E6.5090407@update.uu.se> <56245C48.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> <56245EBF.1060608@update.uu.se> <201510191040.t9JAeBnB029944@rickmurphy.net> <5624CDFC.8000901@update.uu.se> <5625240A.3070105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201510200127.t9K1Rf7e026346@rickmurphy.net> At 01:10 PM 10/19/2015, ben wrote: >Since the original email was running simh, does not the emulator have >the hardware floating point as a option, so you can free up a bit more >memory?. I don't think there's any way to re-purpose the memory used by the FPP emulator. And, to be honest, when running under SIMH you can just say that there's 32K of memory - why would FPP and 28K be any better? (Running with the FPP enabled under SIMH does significantly improve the performance, so it's good to use that in any case.) -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 19 20:44:22 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:44:22 -0700 Subject: "Farm" slang terms In-Reply-To: References: <20151018191636.GC59364@gmail.com> <5623FC4D.9050305@sydex.com> <00bb01d109f2$5f3501a0$1d9f04e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56259C76.9080106@sydex.com> On 10/19/2015 06:05 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > The farmers I know aren't any different than thier grandfathers. > Modern technology just makes them much more productive. "Farmer" can mean different things, for instance, growing stuff up by Booneville. (right, Fred?) --Chuck From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Oct 19 21:48:33 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 02:48:33 +0000 Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406125327F21@TECT.stenoweb.local> <5FFED441677943E7B2C178D6ADE979A7@310e2> <56256EA2.9060305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440612532A80A@TECT.stenoweb.local> A1 is rather nice, they had lots of neat stuff last time I was there... Don't remember anything terminal-ey though. -Brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 7:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Serial Terminals ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Looking for Serial Terminals > On 2015-10-19 6:11 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> I've got a few (ADM-11, several Falco models) but would have to check >> to see which ones (if any) are still working; if you're patient, >> contact me off-list. >> >> You could also have a look through A-1 Electronics on North Queen; >> never know what you'll find there. > > Is that the de-facto Active Surplus, now that they've shut down? :( > > --Toby Pretty well, IMO; there's also Sayal for new stuff and of course Toronto Surplus if you're looking for something they've got and can afford it ;-) m ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> mike >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian >> Adams" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:16 PM >> Subject: Looking for Serial Terminals >> >> >> Hi there, >> >> I've been wanting to get a nice serial terminal >> to use with my old >> systems (mostly UNIX) for a while now, but I >> haven't managed to find >> anything locally. >> Over the past few years I've been to thrifts, >> garage sales, surplus >> shops... But I haven't found any. This sort of >> surprises me, as Toronto >> isn't a small town. >> >> Is there anybody around the Toronto area that >> has a few extra dumb >> terminals lying around, or does anybody know of >> a good source for them >> around the Toronto area? >> >> Thanks >> >> -Brian >> > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 20 01:35:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 23:35:29 -0700 Subject: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status) In-Reply-To: <20151019143525.GJ28547@n0jcf.net> References: <561F2008.5080304@charter.net> <561F2006.7010603@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151015183650.ED69AA58053@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <699EB62F-4BB7-454F-A7F2-2014350DE77C@charter.net> <6EC8D9B2-67C2-45F7-9B1A-D930D4913CF3@pobox.com> <85FDD26D-4174-4B3A-B739-970AC992E555@fozztexx.com> <20151016180059.GE26708@n0jcf.net> <20151019140554.GH28547@n0jcf.net> <20151019143525.GJ28547@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <5625E0B1.20101@sydex.com> On 10/19/2015 07:35 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > If we were to do these again, today, we'd need to farm out the work > to a production shop for better, more reproducible results I think. Find a shop with a wire EDM rig--it shouldn't take too long to spit a jig out. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Oct 20 02:38:14 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:38:14 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <56257A7E.9060203@update.uu.se> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> <56255C9E.9030506@jwsss.com> <56257A7E.9060203@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151020073814.GA49753@beast.freibergnet.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-19 23:11, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > >On 10/19/2015 12:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>Well, you did ask for "thoughts in the conversion", so I gave you > >>mine. Sorry if you felt they were unhelpful. I just thought the > >>"conversion" was basically a no-work. Programming proms is something I > >>have spent more time than I can count on, and is so routine that I > >>don't even think about it. > >> > >I didn't mean that in disrespect. The contents of what I posted was on > >the page and I basically needed the binaries and needed some direction > >as to which went where. I appreciate you taking time to reply, but am > >coming from a lot less capability than you have. I do a lot of > >computing and the like, but I've purposely not kept up with eprom > >technology to the point that i can't reliably swear I can program them > >right now. > > > >There are only so many things one can keep up with and eproms were not > >one that was cheap to follow, and I was more into EE type devices anyway. > > Well, EPROMs are getting sortof old fashioned nowadays. > > >I may need a favor by swapping you some of my eproms (I have a 12" x 12" > >x 12" box of pulls) maybe to get you to make me a set for my board. > > Unfortunately all of my stuff in Sweden, while I nowadays live in > Switzerland. So I could only possibly help out next summer. > But I probably would have some 27256 around. > > >I've pulled out probably 500 and returned them to the original owner and > >owe him more. but I do probably have a lot of the 27xx proms. > > > >Do you think these are 27C or just straight 27 type eproms, and if so > >what speeds? That is what I need to know too. > > I normally don't care about that. The difference is in how you program > them, and there are more variations than that. Fortunately my programmer > knows a whole bunch of them, and also can autodetect the different models. > > But once they are programmed, the actual pins are the same, so speed is > the only possible issue. But I think most of them are 125ns, which is > fast enough anyway. > > I replaced the firmware in some 11/93 boards a few years ago. But I > think I just reused the existing proms that time. > > But I don't have any 11/53 boards, so I can't do that here. > > Johnny > I can do a look later this day. I've done exatly this some years before, and the KDJ11 that is working now as plain CPU isn't in a machine currently so I have it handy. As far as I remember I've used 27C256 Proms and the contents of the previous ones are on Pete's archive since they where newer then the images he had. I've updated the memory from 512K to 1,5Mb too... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Oct 20 04:12:51 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:12:51 +1100 Subject: Firing up old printers Message-ID: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> As I gradually get my long stored collection out of boxes and onto benches I'm starting to turn my attention to a lot of old dot matrix printers I have. I seem to recall reading or hearing a very long time ago that where a printer has not been fired up for eons that the pins can be stuck in the print head (e.g. by old ink drying out) and cause damage (e.g. bend pins) when it tries to print. I'd be most grateful for any advice on anything I need to do before hitting the print command. Thank you!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 20 05:47:51 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 06:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP8 / ETOS Message-ID: <20151020104751.5409418C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rick Murphy > Lots and lots of fun like that. What an space optimizer would do if > there was one. :) Wow. You did all that by hand? If so, with a program that big, wouldn't it have made sense to try and write a separate post-processor to do all those optimizations? Surely it wouldn't have been that much work, compared to going through the entire compiler output! Noel From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 10:09:17 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:09:17 +0200 Subject: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 Message-ID: Just learned of this via a tweet from a former colleague: ? The KIM Uno is a small "open-source hardware" project to build a replica of the classic 1976 KIM-1 computer. It doubles up as a 6502 programmable calculator. It costs about $10 in commonly available parts (board & parts without case or power supply), but provides a faithful KIM-1 'experience'. An atMega328 (Arduino Pro Mini, actually) mounted on the back of the board contains all the logic and memory. ? http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!kim-uno-summary/c1uuh -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 10:44:41 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:44:41 -0400 Subject: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Just learned of this via a tweet from a former colleague: > > The KIM Uno is a small "open-source hardware" project to build a > replica of the classic 1976 KIM-1 computer... I've seen it (I was next to Oscar Vermeulen at VCFe and VCFmw this year). It's pretty slick and quite inexpensive. http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2014/06/kim-uno-kim-i-emulator-on-arduino-uno.html -ethan From lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de Tue Oct 20 11:11:48 2015 From: lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de (Lukas Kaminski) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:11:48 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap Message-ID: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Hello list, i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL (sorry for the self-signed certificate) I already found this interesting page: https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything to try to repair the VT100. But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as soon i connect anything to power. How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a sticky fluid on it. Bye, Lukas Kaminski From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 11:17:49 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:17:49 -0400 Subject: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 References: Message-ID: I've got one; amazing what Oscar managed to put together to sell for $10.00, not to mention the firm/soft-ware. He's also the guy behind the bitchin RasPi-powered PDP-8/I replica: http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!pidp-8-overview/c252u m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:44 AM Subject: Re: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Liam Proven > wrote: >> Just learned of this via a tweet from a former >> colleague: >> >> The KIM Uno is a small "open-source hardware" >> project to build a >> replica of the classic 1976 KIM-1 computer... > > I've seen it (I was next to Oscar Vermeulen at > VCFe and VCFmw this > year). It's pretty slick and quite inexpensive. > > http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2014/06/kim-uno-kim-i-emulator-on-arduino-uno.html > > -ethan From azd30 at telus.net Tue Oct 20 11:38:30 2015 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:38:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1153445458.13892425.1445359110532.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Funny thing that this gets mentioned... I spent a couple of hours last night putting a Kim-Uno together from Oscar's kit. (I had bought it way back in the spring) Works like a charm - only had time to go through some basic testing - no programming yet. Nicely done project on Oscar's part. Everyone should have one! I ordered an RS232 to TTL board this AM - it somehow does not feel 'right' to connect it to a computer via USBserial. I'd like to also figure out what to do/how to work the expansion connector, so I can hook it up to a breadboard and do some I/O. Which probably means a bigger case... I have Oscar's PiDP 8 kit as well, which is awaiting assembly... cheers -- alex ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Stein" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 9:17:49 AM > Subject: Re: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 > > I've got one; amazing what Oscar managed to put > together to sell for $10.00, not to mention the > firm/soft-ware. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 12:02:53 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:02:53 +0200 Subject: Vintage BBC Computer gets FPGA Buddies Message-ID: ? The BBC Microcomputer System (or BBC Micro) was an innovative machine back in the early 1980?s. One feature that impressed reviewers was a ?tube? interface that allowed the machine to become an I/O processor for an additional CPU. When the onboard 6502 became too slow, it could become a slave to a Z-80 or even an ARM processor. The bus was actually useful for any high-speed device, but its purpose was to add new processors, a feature Byte magazine called ?innovative.? [Hoglet67] has released a very interesting set of FPGA designs that allows a small board sporting a Xilinx Spartan 3 to add a 6502, a Z80, a 6809, or a PDP/11 to a BBC Micro via the tube interface. There?s something satisfying about a classic computer acting as an I/O slave to a fairly modern FPGA that implements an even older PDP/11. ? http://hackaday.com/2015/10/03/vintage-bbc-computer-gets-fpga-buddies/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 20 12:08:16 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:08:16 -0700 Subject: Firing up old printers In-Reply-To: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> References: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <56267500.90505@sydex.com> On 10/20/2015 02:12 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > I seem to recall reading or hearing a very long time ago that where > a printer has not been fired up for eons that the pins can be stuck > in the print head (e.g. by old ink drying out) and cause damage (e.g. > bend pins) when it tries to print. It depends on what you're using for a ribbon. My only dot-matrix printers are multi-pass NLQ jobs that use film ribbon. Since the "ink" is on the paper side of the ribbon only, the printheads stay clean. A traditional cloth ribbon, however, will and does contaminate the printhead with ink (and dust). The cleaner of choice has, to the best of my knowledge, always been isoporpanol (isopropyl alcohol). Use a small brush (e.g. toothbrush) to scrub any ink from the face of the printhead. You can soak the printhead end if necessary. Make sure that the carriage rails are free of dirt and grease. Lubricate carriage cables. Unless you're a masochist, try not to disassemble the printhead. If you are forced to, do so over a tray or cloth--there are lots of little parts--and springs that can get lost. Keep in mind that there are still many service outlets for dot-matrix printers, as they're still used in POS applications. --Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 20 12:08:20 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:08:20 +0200 Subject: Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> Message-ID: <56267504.6010304@softjar.se> About four months since I last announced anything. There have been various development since, and I figured I should encourage people who are using BQTCP/IP for RSX to upgrade to the latest release. A short list of changes: TCP: . Small bugfixes in various states. . Bugfix in window handling. TCP reception could occasionally accept data outside of window. . Added ability to dynamically change transmit and receive buffer size. . Bugfix. SYN packets could result in lost pool if sockets were closed with outstanding SYN packets queued. . Bugfix. If pool is full, system could crash on incoming connections. FTP: . Added SUMMARY, PROMPT, MGET and MPUT commands. . Improved filename parsing and handling for mapping between local and remote filenames. . Bugfix. FTP would abort if a long file transfer took place, since the command channel had a timeout. . Much improved progress line for file transfers, including ETA and delta between updates. FTPD: . Bugfix. If a file transfer was followed by an immediate close of the connection, the file could be left in a locked state. . Expanded time stamp information in directory listings to include seconds. TELNET: . Bugfix in telnet options processing. TELNETD: . Bugfix in telnet options processing. IFCONFIG: . Added commands for setting default and maximum allowed tcp transmit and receive buffer sizes. RMD: . Added information on task page about UDP connections. TRACERT: . Added /NUMERIC switch As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc I believe the state of the code is now good enough that I expect there will be fewer updates to the basic networking drivers in the future. I plan to find some new protocols to work on next, and also improve some of the current clients and servers as the need arises. (On a different note, Madame.Update.UU.SE is now a CNAME for Mim.Update.UU.SE, making the naming of the machine consistent between DECnet and TCP/IP, in case someone wonders why the name have changed...) Johnny From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 20 13:36:18 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:36:18 +0200 Subject: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Mike Stein Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 6:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 I've got one; amazing what Oscar managed to put together to sell for $10.00, not to mention the firm/soft-ware. He's also the guy behind the bitchin RasPi-powered PDP-8/I replica: http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!pidp-8-overview/c252u m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:44 AM Subject: Re: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1 > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Just learned of this via a tweet from a former colleague: >> >> The KIM Uno is a small "open-source hardware" project >> to build a replica of the classic 1976 KIM-1 computer... > > I've seen it (I was next to Oscar Vermeulen at VCFe and > VCFmw this year). It's pretty slick and quite inexpensive. > http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2014/06/kim-uno-kim-i-emulator-on-arduino-uno.html > > -ethan ========= Oscar is already working on another very promising product. In December he is coming to Holland to visit family. He will also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. Sorry, can't say more, I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... - Henk, PA8PDP From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 20 13:35:32 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:35:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I found a channel that's about a Month old, but no real information as to who they are. Computer History Archives Educational Vintage Computer Films View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyJD0RHtF_77_oAf5tT1nQ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 20 14:45:42 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:45:42 +0200 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: <20179530.724.1445233204242.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <56240073.40203@charter.net> <20179530.724.1445233204242.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: With thanks to Bruce, Jay and Rod, good news, although something has gone wrong first. Learned a few things! Long story ... As I did not see anything on the Dasher D200 terminal screen, I first checked the cable, assuming that the terminal did not develop issues in the years being stored in the attic. The cable checked out fine, and thus I now know which wires are RxD and TxD (the cable is just 3 wires, no hardware handshake). After connecting TxD to RxD anything typed on the keyboard appears on the screen. So indeed, the terminal is OK. Moving to the "UNIVERSAL LINE MULTIPLEXER PADDLE BD". Lots of wires are soldered to this paddle board, but as far as I can see none of those wires goes to any pin of the card edge connectors of slot #1, the NOVA processor. I figured that perhaps traces on the backplane lead from slot #1 to another slot, so I had a better look at the paddle board. It has 5 identical rows of pins. Each row is 13 pins with pin 4 (or 10 depending where you start counting) removed. Long story short, I did not see any signals on any pin when the NOVA is reset. Using the doc that I got from Bruce (tnx agn!) I tried to find signals or voltage levels that might be something "RS-232-ish". Hooked up two thin test wires (with small hooks). One on GND, the other on the pin that would carry TxD. Stepping to the front of the computer, where I could press the RESET button, and look at the scope screen. RESET ... nothing, bummer. Back to the rear side of the computer to hook up another pin ... smoke! Smoke was coming from the GND test hook. Power off! The hook plastic was molten and that produced the smoke. I could remove the hook from the pin, but the hook is gone and the test hook is gone. What went wrong? After a few minutes I came to the conclusion that the pin that I assumed to be GND was not GND, but something else, and most likely a power supply pin. Looking again at the schematic drawing, I saw my error :-/ The NOVA has two card edge connectors, seeing from the rear, the left connector is "A" and the right connector is "B". Further, each connector has two rows of pins. In my ignorance of DG, I thought that the top row of pins was "A", and the bottom row of pins is row "B". And each row has 100 pins ... dumb, dumb! A simple count from 1 up, would have shown that one row has only 50 pins! Each connector has all *odd* pins on the upper row and all *even* pins on the bottom row. Soooo, what I thought to be B99 (=GND) is actually pin A98, and that is +5V. It is a good thing that my test leads and hooks are small, so in case of high currents the power supply will "win", the hook/wire "loose". As the computer did not do anything "different", I hoped the power supply could handle the "semi" short circuit. With the new insight of how you should count the pins, I had another look at the BERG header. The GND, RxD and TxD aligned with appropriate pins on the top row, last series of pins of connector A. It could well be that the connector (as it was hooked up when I picked up the machine) was not correct! Also, I seem to remember the system originally had *two* D200s, but I got only one terminal. Possibly the hooked up terminal was "the other terminal", not the console terminal ... and the console terminal would have been connected on the pins of connector A slot #1. Hmmmm, let's try that. The signals would match as the RxD pin of the terminal would connect to backplane pin A85 which is TxD, etc. Another long story short ... :-) Terminal on, waiting until the screen shows some background light, then NOVA on (the rest stays off). Hurray! I see an "O" appearing on the screen and a second or so later, the letter "K" and on the next line "!000000" and another line with "!" This is exactly what should happen. Getting bold now. Trying to boot from disk. So, I switched on the disk drive. With my ear against the front panel, I can hear a sound that could be a spindle drive. Then a rather loud "humming", a "click", the humming stops and then I can still hear the spindle ... but the READY LED is on. So, I RESET the NOVA. "OK !000000 !", but that's all, no joy. "OK", let's try the floppy disk. I removed the front panel to switch the floppy drive to be the boot device ... it already is the boot device! No wonder that nothing happened, because I had no floppy in the drive! Inserted the "startup" floppy ... nope, no good. As the front cover was removed and the disk was spinning (I assumed), I set the switch in the other position so that the hard disk is boot device. RESET the NOVA again. The READY LED flashes a few times and I get the text "FILENAME ?" on the screen! I guess that the startup automatically starts the accounting application as that program asks for a (customer) account file to be opened. I had a glance over the doc that came with the system, so I "knew" a file name that I could enter ... DOSINIT. That worked! However, the program asks for a drive identifier. Not knowing what could happen (wipe disk...) I aborted the program and switched off the disk and then the NOVA. All in all a well-spent evening. With good feeling I closed my "museum" and went back home (to type this). - Henk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 20 14:52:47 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:52:47 +0000 Subject: Firing up old printers In-Reply-To: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> References: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: > > I seem to recall reading or hearing a very long time ago that where a > printer has not been fired up for eons that the pins can be stuck in the > print head (e.g. by old ink drying out) and cause damage (e.g. bend pins) > when it tries to print. A word of warning. Unless you really know what you are doing, do not dismantle a dot matrix printhead. Many of them were initially made with pins that were longer than the finished ones, the head was assembled and the pins cut and ground to the correct length. If you take it apart you will never get the pins back in the guides correctly. A few can be taken apart. One early Epson one (also used in the Commodore 2023, etc) will split into two parts, the pins in their guide and the solenoid assembly. The latter can be stripped, but don't be tempted to unclip the back end of the former! The Teletype Model 43 printhed can be taken apart, the method is documented in the service manual. Sanders 12/7 and 700 printheads are quite easy to take apart (but keep the pin/armature assemblies in order). Other than those, I wouldn't strip any of them! Maybe clean the face with propan-2-ol and then soak that end in the same solvent to remove any residual ink.. -tony From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 16:12:18 2015 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:12:18 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: I can't seem to get the link to work with the pictures, so I don't know what the tube looks like, but sticky fluid is NOT an indication of a problem with the tube. Some tubes used a bonded safety glass, and that goo leaks out over time. But I've never seen a VT100 with such a tube installed. The most common cause of goo on the tube is going to be goo surrounding the 2nd anode connection (the suction cup). This is the plasticizers leeching out of the anode wiring, and gooing up the tube. The cable will be all sticky too. You can clean it off, I find that brake cleaner will dissolve it nicely. Just clean the area around the connection, don't clean the graphite coating off the main parts of the back of the tube - scrub only the clear glass areas. Without knowing what parts you have, I can't really tell you more than that, but, in general, I find that VT100's tend to work fine. There's nothing special I would do, just hook everything up and try it out. You're not going to blow anything up, assuming you've got parts connected properly. -Ian On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Lukas Kaminski wrote: > Hello list, > > i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) > to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional > parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: > https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL > (sorry for the self-signed certificate) > > I already found this interesting page: > https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything > to try to repair the VT100. > > But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as > soon i connect anything to power. > > How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, > check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a > sticky fluid on it. > > Bye, > > Lukas Kaminski From scaron at umich.edu Tue Oct 20 16:18:02 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:18:02 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: Congratulations! My own VT131 is on the repair line so I'll be watching this thread with some interest. Best, Sean On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Ian Primus wrote: > I can't seem to get the link to work with the pictures, so I don't > know what the tube looks like, but sticky fluid is NOT an indication > of a problem with the tube. Some tubes used a bonded safety glass, and > that goo leaks out over time. But I've never seen a VT100 with such a > tube installed. The most common cause of goo on the tube is going to > be goo surrounding the 2nd anode connection (the suction cup). This is > the plasticizers leeching out of the anode wiring, and gooing up the > tube. The cable will be all sticky too. You can clean it off, I find > that brake cleaner will dissolve it nicely. Just clean the area around > the connection, don't clean the graphite coating off the main parts of > the back of the tube - scrub only the clear glass areas. > > Without knowing what parts you have, I can't really tell you more than > that, but, in general, I find that VT100's tend to work fine. There's > nothing special I would do, just hook everything up and try it out. > You're not going to blow anything up, assuming you've got parts > connected properly. > > -Ian > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Lukas Kaminski > wrote: > > Hello list, > > > > i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) > > to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional > > parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: > > https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL > > (sorry for the self-signed certificate) > > > > I already found this interesting page: > > https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything > > to try to repair the VT100. > > > > But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as > > soon i connect anything to power. > > > > How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, > > check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a > > sticky fluid on it. > > > > Bye, > > > > Lukas Kaminski > From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 20 16:54:26 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:54:26 -0500 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <56240073.40203@charter.net> <20179530.724.1445233204242.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <5626B812.40801@charter.net> On 10/20/2015 2:45 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > With thanks to Bruce, Jay and Rod, good news, although something > has gone wrong first. Learned a few things! Long story ... > > As I did not see anything on the Dasher D200 terminal screen, I first > checked the cable, assuming that the terminal did not develop issues > in the years being stored in the attic. > The cable checked out fine, and thus I now know which wires are RxD > and TxD (the cable is just 3 wires, no hardware handshake). > After connecting TxD to RxD anything typed on the keyboard appears on > the screen. So indeed, the terminal is OK. > > Moving to the "UNIVERSAL LINE MULTIPLEXER PADDLE BD". Lots of wires are > soldered to this paddle board, but as far as I can see none of those > wires goes to any pin of the card edge connectors of slot #1, the NOVA > processor. I figured that perhaps traces on the backplane lead from > slot #1 to another slot, so I had a better look at the paddle board. > It has 5 identical rows of pins. Each row is 13 pins with pin 4 (or 10 > depending where you start counting) removed. > Long story short, I did not see any signals on any pin when the NOVA is > reset. > > Using the doc that I got from Bruce (tnx agn!) I tried to find signals > or voltage levels that might be something "RS-232-ish". > Hooked up two thin test wires (with small hooks). One on GND, the other > on the pin that would carry TxD. Stepping to the front of the computer, > where I could press the RESET button, and look at the scope screen. > RESET ... nothing, bummer. > Back to the rear side of the computer to hook up another pin ... smoke! > Smoke was coming from the GND test hook. Power off! > > The hook plastic was molten and that produced the smoke. I could remove > the hook from the pin, but the hook is gone and the test hook is gone. > What went wrong? > After a few minutes I came to the conclusion that the pin that I assumed > to be GND was not GND, but something else, and most likely a power supply > pin. Looking again at the schematic drawing, I saw my error :-/ > > The NOVA has two card edge connectors, seeing from the rear, the left > connector is "A" and the right connector is "B". Further, each connector > has two rows of pins. In my ignorance of DG, I thought that the top row > of pins was "A", and the bottom row of pins is row "B". And each row has > 100 pins ... dumb, dumb! > A simple count from 1 up, would have shown that one row has only 50 pins! > Each connector has all *odd* pins on the upper row and all *even* pins on > the bottom row. > Soooo, what I thought to be B99 (=GND) is actually pin A98, and that is > +5V. It is a good thing that my test leads and hooks are small, so in > case of high currents the power supply will "win", the hook/wire "loose". > As the computer did not do anything "different", I hoped the power supply > could handle the "semi" short circuit. > > With the new insight of how you should count the pins, I had another look > at the BERG header. The GND, RxD and TxD aligned with appropriate pins on > the top row, last series of pins of connector A. It could well be that > the connector (as it was hooked up when I picked up the machine) was not > correct! Also, I seem to remember the system originally had *two* D200s, > but I got only one terminal. Possibly the hooked up terminal was "the > other terminal", not the console terminal ... and the console terminal > would have been connected on the pins of connector A slot #1. > Hmmmm, let's try that. The signals would match as the RxD pin of the > terminal would connect to backplane pin A85 which is TxD, etc. > Another long story short ... :-) > Terminal on, waiting until the screen shows some background light, then > NOVA on (the rest stays off). Hurray! I see an "O" appearing on the > screen and a second or so later, the letter "K" and on the next line > "!000000" and another line with "!" This is exactly what should happen. > > Getting bold now. Trying to boot from disk. So, I switched on the disk > drive. With my ear against the front panel, I can hear a sound that could > be a spindle drive. Then a rather loud "humming", a "click", the humming > stops and then I can still hear the spindle ... but the READY LED is on. > So, I RESET the NOVA. "OK !000000 !", but that's all, no joy. "OK", let's > try the floppy disk. I removed the front panel to switch the floppy drive > to be the boot device ... it already is the boot device! No wonder that > nothing happened, because I had no floppy in the drive! Inserted the > "startup" floppy ... nope, no good. As the front cover was removed and > the disk was spinning (I assumed), I set the switch in the other position > so that the hard disk is boot device. RESET the NOVA again. The READY > LED flashes a few times and I get the text "FILENAME ?" on the screen! > > I guess that the startup automatically starts the accounting application > as that program asks for a (customer) account file to be opened. > I had a glance over the doc that came with the system, so I "knew" a file > name that I could enter ... DOSINIT. That worked! However, the program > asks for a drive identifier. Not knowing what could happen (wipe disk...) > I aborted the program and switched off the disk and then the NOVA. > > All in all a well-spent evening. With good feeling I closed my "museum" > and went back home (to type this). > > - Henk > Excellent! DOSINIT is the DOS disk initialization (file system setup, if you will) program, so it is good that you stopped. ;) FILENAME? is the normal DOS prompt, asking for what system file to boot from disk. It is not coming from the accounting program. Instead, try just hitting return in answer to the FILENAME ? prompt - that will boot DP0:SYS.SV - the default generated operating system. Responding to the prompt with just "SYS" (no quotes) would do the same as would DP0:SYS . See appendix E of 093-00201-00 available on bitsavers (see below). I have quite a few manuals as well. Versons of some/many of them can be found on bitsavers in the directory: .../pdf/dg/software/ 001035 DG 069-000002-00 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL Introduction to the Real Time Disk Operating System (RDOS) P BASEMENT 1978 001043 DG 069-000022-01 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL Learning to Use Your RDOS/DOS System P BASEMENT 1979 001112 DG 093-000075-08 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL Real Time Disk Operating System (RDOS) Reference Manual P BASEMENT 1979 001125 DG 093-000105-02 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL RDOS User's Handbook S BASEMENT 1975 001131 DG 093-000109-01 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL RDOS/DOS Command Line Interpreter User's Manual P BASEMENT 1978 001166 DG 093-000188-02 NOVA, Eclipse MANUAL How to Load and Generate Your RDOS System P BASEMENT 1979 001190 DG 093-000201-03 NOVA MANUAL Disk Operating System (DOS) Reference Manual P BASEMENT 1979 001199 DG 093-000222-01 NOVA MANUAL How to Generate Your DOS System P BASEMENT 1979 So at least now you have some manual numbers (093-......) to hunt for. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 20 16:57:04 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:57:04 -0500 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> On 10/20/2015 1:35 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I found a channel that's about a Month old, but no real information as to who they are. > > > Computer History Archives > Educational Vintage Computer Films > View on www.youtube.com > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyJD0RHtF_77_oAf5tT1nQ > Nice narration... JRJ From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Oct 20 17:02:18 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:02:18 -0700 Subject: Is it live [WAS:RE: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout] Message-ID: <029a01d10b82$fd49c7e0$f7dd57a0$@computer.org> As it turns out the ownership of the Ella tapes is uncertain so Imation/Memorex can't use them without a fight. But there were several other artists, along with the breaking glass that can be used. Imation paid $300 million for the brand - shows the power of a brand. tom -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow [mailto:aek at bitsavers.org] Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 10:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Oddball floppies for trade - 8", HS (outer edge), weird cutout On 10/18/15 6:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > it's truly amazing that Memorex still exists--as a brand of Imation. > Thank Ella Fitzgerald "Is it live, or is it Memorex" http://www.totalmedia.com/content/trivia-and-tips/maxells-chair-man-hell-blow-you-away-part-1.html From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 20 17:18:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:18:46 -0700 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5626BDC6.4020508@bitsavers.org> On 10/20/15 11:35 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I found a channel that's about a Month old, but no real information as to who they are. > > > Computer History Archives > Educational Vintage Computer Films > I think it is a guy in Sacramento. I remember buying a CD of the 1050 film off ebay years ago and I think that was what he was going by then. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Oct 20 17:18:20 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:18:20 +0200 Subject: Firing up old printers In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1445379500.7488.13.camel@agj.net> tis 2015-10-20 klockan 19:52 +0000 skrev tony duell: > > Sanders 12/7 and 700 printheads are quite easy to take apart (but > keep the > pin/armature assemblies in order). > > Other than those, I wouldn't strip any of them! > > Maybe clean the face with propan-2-ol and then soak that end in the > same solvent to > remove any residual ink.. Old Epson fx-80 ? (I do have a Digital wide carriage one , matched to a DEC 380 Pro.) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 20 17:29:45 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 23:29:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: <631615093.169001.1445380185519.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > On 20 October 2015 at 22:12 Ian Primus wrote: > > > I can't seem to get the link to work with the pictures, so I don't > know what the tube looks like, but sticky fluid is NOT an indication > of a problem with the tube. Some tubes used a bonded safety glass, and > that goo leaks out over time. But I've never seen a VT100 with such a > tube installed. The most common cause of goo on the tube is going to > be goo surrounding the 2nd anode connection (the suction cup). This is > the plasticizers leeching out of the anode wiring, and gooing up the > tube. The cable will be all sticky too. You can clean it off, I find > that brake cleaner will dissolve it nicely. Just clean the area around > the connection, don't clean the graphite coating off the main parts of > the back of the tube - scrub only the clear glass areas. > > Without knowing what parts you have, I can't really tell you more than > that, but, in general, I find that VT100's tend to work fine. There's > nothing special I would do, just hook everything up and try it out. > You're not going to blow anything up, assuming you've got parts > connected properly. > > -Ian > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Lukas Kaminski > wrote: > > Hello list, > > > > i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) > > to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional > > parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: > > https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL > > (sorry for the self-signed certificate) > > > > I already found this interesting page: > > https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything > > to try to repair the VT100. > > > > But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as > > soon i connect anything to power. > > > > How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, > > check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a > > sticky fluid on it. > > > > Bye, > > > > Lukas Kaminski I couldn't get the link to work either, I could only get parts of the images. I too saw leakage from around the anode cap. I have been advised to get all that cleaned up (isopropyl will do I think), and then, iirc, re-grease the anode cap, although I am not at home to check and I can't remember what kind of grease you need to use for that. I would be careful about just powering it on in case there is something bad somewhere that blows a component that can't be replaced (I believe flyback transformers fall into that category). So I would check all the PSU and video control board electrolytic capacitors in particular, and probably re-form them. I would also use a dummy load to test the PSU to make sure it is producing the right voltages without too much ripple. Once all that checks out, I would power it up one part at a time, leaving the video control board to last but one, and then the tube (and flyback) to last. At least, this is what I did, and suffered no ill effects, although I did have to re-cap the video control board to stop a screen wobble. My VT101 and VT102 were one of my rare successes, with a lot of help from another list member though! Regards Rob From chrise at pobox.com Tue Oct 20 17:39:29 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:39:29 -0500 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (10/20/2015 at 04:57PM -0500), Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/20/2015 1:35 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > I found a channel that's about a Month old, but no real information as to who they are. > > > > > > Computer History Archives > > Educational Vintage Computer Films > > View on www.youtube.com > > > > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyJD0RHtF_77_oAf5tT1nQ > > > > Nice narration... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KuoZ6cades I have two Vicalloy tapes from a UNIVAC I. Anybody have a UNISERVO drive we could read them on? ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:18:30 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:18:30 -0500 Subject: Firing up old printers In-Reply-To: <1445379500.7488.13.camel@agj.net> References: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> <1445379500.7488.13.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: I thought Fedron was the go-to solvent for the printing / ink industry? It's also used to clean rubber parts, iirc. Interesting point about the single-side vs. trad. cloth ribbons. I'm using a cheap-o replacement in my Panasonic "Quiet" Color KXT 24-pin (NLQ). I don't recall what ribbon was in it when it arrived, other than it was totally shot. I only use black ribbons, the color are no use to me - and terribly expensive. It's an excellent printer, as nice as any I have ever used or owned, and very compatible with the popular C-64 interfaces. Are we really cruisin' for a brusin' using cheap ribbons in this machine? Fwiw, it sees little, but occasional use - not sure if that's good or bad! ;-) -Bill On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal < stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote: > tis 2015-10-20 klockan 19:52 +0000 skrev tony duell: > > > > > Sanders 12/7 and 700 printheads are quite easy to take apart (but > > keep the > > pin/armature assemblies in order). > > > > Other than those, I wouldn't strip any of them! > > > > Maybe clean the face with propan-2-ol and then soak that end in the > > same solvent to > > remove any residual ink.. > > > Old Epson fx-80 ? > > (I do have a Digital wide carriage one , matched to a DEC 380 Pro.) > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 20 19:19:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:19:20 -0700 Subject: Firing up old printers In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d10b17$86ca6720$945f3560$@internode.on.net> <1445379500.7488.13.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <5626DA08.4090304@sydex.com> On 10/20/2015 04:18 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > I thought Fedron was the go-to solvent for the printing / ink industry? > It's also used to clean rubber parts, iirc. I demurred on Fedron as it contains xylol. Some print heads have plastic parts and I'm not sure how it would affect those--it's also a paint/lacquer solvent. Same situation for toluol. Alky seems to be the mildest of the lot. Freon TF would, of course, be my choice... > Interesting point about the single-side vs. trad. cloth ribbons. I'm using > a cheap-o replacement in my Panasonic "Quiet" Color KXT 24-pin (NLQ). I > don't recall what ribbon was in it when it arrived, other than it was > totally shot. I only use black ribbons, the color are no use to me - and > terribly expensive. The film ribbons are single-pass only--there's a supply spool in the cartridge. Once the supply side is gone into the stuffer box--it's gone. I've found that plain IBM typewriter film ribbon works to refill the HP-style carts. I don't care much for multicolor ribbons. They're great on the first pass, but then the colors get contaminated with the ink left on the printhead. After awhile, the yellow turns to a dirty yellow color. --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Oct 20 20:50:30 2015 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:50:30 -0400 Subject: PDP8 / ETOS In-Reply-To: <20151020104751.5409418C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151020104751.5409418C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201510210150.t9L1oXDF022856@rickmurphy.net> At 06:47 AM 10/20/2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rick Murphy > > > Lots and lots of fun like that. What an space optimizer would do if > > there was one. :) > >Wow. You did all that by hand? Yup. Lots of work. That's kind of why I find the implication that I don't know what's going on here somewhat disconcerting. :) >If so, with a program that big, wouldn't it have made sense to try and >write >a separate post-processor to do all those optimizations? Surely it >wouldn't >have been that much work, compared to going through the entire compiler >output! As with most things, it initially looked to be more work to write something to parse the code and optimize it. Some of the work was pretty much rote, but a lot of it took some judgement to find more compact code. It wasn't until I described the effort that I actually considered calling it "space optimization". Oh, and some of this was painfully impacted by the limits of the compiler symbol table sizes, thus a lot of constants don't get meaningful names. Ugh. I wouldn't have volunteered for this. I still want to get it to the point where 28K is possible, but that'll take a new optimization that I haven't yet thought of. :) Basically, at this point, it's really a FPP assembler version of Adventure slightly assisted by the Fortran compiler. I'm pretty proud of the idle loop blinkenlights, though. Looks good on my PiDP-8. -Rick From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 20:56:17 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:56:17 -0500 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: I have most of the VT100 family parts, and can help somewhat in identifying part numbers. If you need any, feel free to contact me off list. Paul On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Lukas Kaminski < lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de> wrote: > Hello list, > > i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) > to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional > parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: > https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL > (sorry for the self-signed certificate) > > I already found this interesting page: > https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything > to try to repair the VT100. > > But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as > soon i connect anything to power. > > How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, > check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a > sticky fluid on it. > > Bye, > > Lukas Kaminski > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 20 21:34:45 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:34:45 -0500 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> On 10/20/2015 05:39 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: I watched the IBM 360 one (17 minutes) it had some GREAT pictures of making SLT modules and core planes. They had a machine in the pictures that I didn't recognize. It had a black front panel and a long row of address dials, no switches. It might have been a stripped-down version of what eventually became the 360/22, /25, or maybe /30, but it didn't seem to really just be a version of one of those just in black. The same machine is shown a number of times at the end of the video. Anybody know? Jon From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 22:21:02 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:21:02 -0300 Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5627049E.3030804@gmail.com> On 2015-10-20 11:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/20/2015 05:39 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I watched the IBM 360 one (17 minutes) it had some GREAT pictures of > making SLT modules and core planes. > > They had a machine in the pictures that I didn't recognize. It had a > black front panel and a long row of address dials, no switches. It > might have been a stripped-down version of what eventually became the > 360/22, /25, or maybe /30, but it didn't seem to really just be a > version of one of those just in black. The same machine is shown a > number of times at the end of the video. Anybody know? > > Jon Well since this film is reputed to have come along in 1964, we can probably rule out 22 and 25 since they came along later and the front panel looks quite different from a model 30. The panel also looks flat unlike any I have seen. Perhaps it is just a mock up that was used in the production of the film. Paul. From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 21 00:42:45 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:42:45 +1000 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? From: "Jon Elson" Date: Wed, October 21, 2015 12:34 pm To: General at classiccmp.org "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/20/2015 05:39 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I watched the IBM 360 one (17 minutes) it had some GREAT > pictures of making SLT modules and core planes. > > They had a machine in the pictures that I didn't recognize. > It had a black front panel and a long row of address dials, > no switches. It might have been a stripped-down version of > what eventually became the 360/22, /25, or maybe /30, but it > didn't seem to really just be a version of one of those just > in black. The same machine is shown a number of times at > the end of the video. Anybody know? > > Jon > Great film. I'm sure there are a few mockups in there. For instance, towards the end at 17:23 there is a mockup of a console with a slim white/black masthead. I have a high-res copy of that photo, and here is a the lower right corner detail enlarged: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/IBM_System_360_mockup_enlarged.jpg You can see a chip out of the console panel that looks like particle board, and there are no cutouts for the button 'inserts' - they appear glued on. (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) Steve. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 21 02:43:06 2015 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:43:06 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: I got two VT100 that I'd need to repair. I'll we watching this thread too. I'm libing in Spain, by the way. Kind Regards Sergio 2015-10-21 3:56 GMT+02:00 Paul Anderson : > I have most of the VT100 family parts, and can help somewhat in identifying > part numbers. > > If you need any, feel free to contact me off list. > > Paul > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Lukas Kaminski < > lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de> wrote: > > > Hello list, > > > > i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) > > to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional > > parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: > > https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL > > (sorry for the self-signed certificate) > > > > I already found this interesting page: > > https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything > > to try to repair the VT100. > > > > But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as > > soon i connect anything to power. > > > > How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, > > check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a > > sticky fluid on it. > > > > Bye, > > > > Lukas Kaminski > > > From lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de Wed Oct 21 04:45:12 2015 From: lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de (Lukas Kaminski) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:45:12 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: <56275EA8.3080307@krankikom.de> On 10/21/2015 09:43, SPC wrote: > I got two VT100 that I'd need to repair. I'll we watching this thread too. > I'm libing in Spain, by the way. > > Kind Regards > Sergio > > 2015-10-21 3:56 GMT+02:00 Paul Anderson : > >> I have most of the VT100 family parts, and can help somewhat in identifying >> part numbers. >> >> If you need any, feel free to contact me off list. >> >> Paul >> >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Lukas Kaminski < >> lukas.kaminski at krankikom.de> wrote: >> >>> Hello list, >>> >>> i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) >>> to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional >>> parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: >>> https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL >>> (sorry for the self-signed certificate) >>> >>> I already found this interesting page: >>> https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything >>> to try to repair the VT100. >>> >>> But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as >>> soon i connect anything to power. >>> >>> How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, >>> check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a >>> sticky fluid on it. >>> >>> Bye, >>> >>> Lukas Kaminski >>> >> Thanks for all comments so far. I've reuploaded the pics to dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p2i9p7wozrio0je/AACRXiWfm0BloWTzfWbZteHxa i bought a little bit isopropyl, which i plan to use to cleanup the sticky fluid on the CRT and some other dirt on the boards. This weekend i'll plan to build the powersupply adapter. I'll update you all when i'm finished. Since the terminal is in parts, i'll probably need some help for the connections. I'm not sure if some cables are missing... (but that shouldn't be a big problem) Lukas From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 21 05:12:33 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:12:33 +0100 Subject: Data General NOVA 4/C help In-Reply-To: References: <5622C29A.3040602@btinternet.com> <23051310.48082.1445190323368.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> <56240073.40203@charter.net> <20179530.724.1445233204242.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost> Message-ID: <56276511.30501@btinternet.com> Well done Sir!! Knowing the terminal is OK is a real booster. Regards Rod On 20/10/2015 20:45, Henk Gooijen wrote: > With thanks to Bruce, Jay and Rod, good news, although something > has gone wrong first. Learned a few things! Long story ... > > As I did not see anything on the Dasher D200 terminal screen, I first > checked the cable, assuming that the terminal did not develop issues > in the years being stored in the attic. > The cable checked out fine, and thus I now know which wires are RxD > and TxD (the cable is just 3 wires, no hardware handshake). > After connecting TxD to RxD anything typed on the keyboard appears on > the screen. So indeed, the terminal is OK. > > Moving to the "UNIVERSAL LINE MULTIPLEXER PADDLE BD". Lots of wires are > soldered to this paddle board, but as far as I can see none of those > wires goes to any pin of the card edge connectors of slot #1, the NOVA > processor. I figured that perhaps traces on the backplane lead from > slot #1 to another slot, so I had a better look at the paddle board. > It has 5 identical rows of pins. Each row is 13 pins with pin 4 (or 10 > depending where you start counting) removed. > Long story short, I did not see any signals on any pin when the NOVA is > reset. > > Using the doc that I got from Bruce (tnx agn!) I tried to find signals > or voltage levels that might be something "RS-232-ish". > Hooked up two thin test wires (with small hooks). One on GND, the other > on the pin that would carry TxD. Stepping to the front of the computer, > where I could press the RESET button, and look at the scope screen. > RESET ... nothing, bummer. > Back to the rear side of the computer to hook up another pin ... smoke! > Smoke was coming from the GND test hook. Power off! > > The hook plastic was molten and that produced the smoke. I could remove > the hook from the pin, but the hook is gone and the test hook is gone. > What went wrong? > After a few minutes I came to the conclusion that the pin that I assumed > to be GND was not GND, but something else, and most likely a power supply > pin. Looking again at the schematic drawing, I saw my error :-/ > > The NOVA has two card edge connectors, seeing from the rear, the left > connector is "A" and the right connector is "B". Further, each connector > has two rows of pins. In my ignorance of DG, I thought that the top row > of pins was "A", and the bottom row of pins is row "B". And each row has > 100 pins ... dumb, dumb! > A simple count from 1 up, would have shown that one row has only 50 pins! > Each connector has all *odd* pins on the upper row and all *even* pins on > the bottom row. > Soooo, what I thought to be B99 (=GND) is actually pin A98, and that is > +5V. It is a good thing that my test leads and hooks are small, so in > case of high currents the power supply will "win", the hook/wire "loose". > As the computer did not do anything "different", I hoped the power supply > could handle the "semi" short circuit. > > With the new insight of how you should count the pins, I had another look > at the BERG header. The GND, RxD and TxD aligned with appropriate pins on > the top row, last series of pins of connector A. It could well be that > the connector (as it was hooked up when I picked up the machine) was not > correct! Also, I seem to remember the system originally had *two* D200s, > but I got only one terminal. Possibly the hooked up terminal was "the > other terminal", not the console terminal ... and the console terminal > would have been connected on the pins of connector A slot #1. > Hmmmm, let's try that. The signals would match as the RxD pin of the > terminal would connect to backplane pin A85 which is TxD, etc. > Another long story short ... :-) > Terminal on, waiting until the screen shows some background light, then > NOVA on (the rest stays off). Hurray! I see an "O" appearing on the > screen and a second or so later, the letter "K" and on the next line > "!000000" and another line with "!" This is exactly what should happen. > > Getting bold now. Trying to boot from disk. So, I switched on the disk > drive. With my ear against the front panel, I can hear a sound that could > be a spindle drive. Then a rather loud "humming", a "click", the humming > stops and then I can still hear the spindle ... but the READY LED is on. > So, I RESET the NOVA. "OK !000000 !", but that's all, no joy. "OK", let's > try the floppy disk. I removed the front panel to switch the floppy drive > to be the boot device ... it already is the boot device! No wonder that > nothing happened, because I had no floppy in the drive! Inserted the > "startup" floppy ... nope, no good. As the front cover was removed and > the disk was spinning (I assumed), I set the switch in the other position > so that the hard disk is boot device. RESET the NOVA again. The READY > LED flashes a few times and I get the text "FILENAME ?" on the screen! > > I guess that the startup automatically starts the accounting application > as that program asks for a (customer) account file to be opened. > I had a glance over the doc that came with the system, so I "knew" a file > name that I could enter ... DOSINIT. That worked! However, the program > asks for a drive identifier. Not knowing what could happen (wipe disk...) > I aborted the program and switched off the disk and then the NOVA. > > All in all a well-spent evening. With good feeling I closed my "museum" > and went back home (to type this). > > - Henk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 21 05:19:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:19:49 +0100 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> Message-ID: <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball Bros. The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be obvious on inspection of the board. I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement board. Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff Rod On 20/10/2015 22:12, Ian Primus wrote: > I can't seem to get the link to work with the pictures, so I don't > know what the tube looks like, but sticky fluid is NOT an indication > of a problem with the tube. Some tubes used a bonded safety glass, and > that goo leaks out over time. But I've never seen a VT100 with such a > tube installed. The most common cause of goo on the tube is going to > be goo surrounding the 2nd anode connection (the suction cup). This is > the plasticizers leeching out of the anode wiring, and gooing up the > tube. The cable will be all sticky too. You can clean it off, I find > that brake cleaner will dissolve it nicely. Just clean the area around > the connection, don't clean the graphite coating off the main parts of > the back of the tube - scrub only the clear glass areas. > > Without knowing what parts you have, I can't really tell you more than > that, but, in general, I find that VT100's tend to work fine. There's > nothing special I would do, just hook everything up and try it out. > You're not going to blow anything up, assuming you've got parts > connected properly. > > -Ian > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Lukas Kaminski > wrote: >> Hello list, >> >> i got hands on several VT100 and VT105 parts. It SEEMS (at least to me) >> to be one complete terminal without a power supply and some additional >> parts. I took pictures of everything, which can be seen here: >> https://antares.krankikom.de/index.php/s/vcIZuHbpsn3lSoL >> (sorry for the self-signed certificate) >> >> I already found this interesting page: >> https://github.com/bbenchoff/VT100Adapter, so i guess i have everything >> to try to repair the VT100. >> >> But i never tried something like that, and i fear to break something as >> soon i connect anything to power. >> >> How should i start? I especially don't know how to clean the boards, >> check the eproms and i'm afraid that the CRT is broken, since it has a >> sticky fluid on it. >> >> Bye, >> >> Lukas Kaminski From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 06:51:34 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:51:34 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball > Bros. > The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be > obvious on inspection of the board. > I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement > board. > > Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff > > Rod > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 21 07:10:23 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:10:23 +0100 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I had forgotten about that. There is a useful page on this somewhere, but I am away from home and can't get the link right now. Will try to send out the link later. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: "william degnan" Sent: ?21/?10/?2015 12:51 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball > Bros. > The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be > obvious on inspection of the board. > I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement > board. > > Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff > > Rod > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 08:03:16 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:03:16 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <20151021121050.BDD7D2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <20151021121050.BDD7D2073C38@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "william degnan" > Sent: ?21/?10/?2015 12:51 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > > > VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball > > Bros. > > The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be > > obvious on inspection of the board. > > I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement > > board. > > > > Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff > > > > Rod > > > > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? > Bill > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Robert Jarratt < robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > I had forgotten about that. There is a useful page on this somewhere, but > I am away from home and can't get the link right now. Will try to send out > the link later. > > Regards > > Rob > I have one of each, I use the VT102 for "every day" use and save the VT100 for holidays and leap year day, etc. Assuming the VT100 is more fragile...needs to be run periodically but not too much. Bill -- Bill From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Oct 21 08:25:50 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:25:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <5626BDC6.4020508@bitsavers.org> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626BDC6.4020508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <712880976.991666.1445433950253.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Al Kossow > I think it is a guy in Sacramento. I remember buying a CD of the 1050 film off ebay years ago and I think that was what he was going by then. I think it's really cool. I just figured someone here did it. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 21 09:52:05 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:52:05 +0000 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5627A695.9020307@btinternet.com> Yes I think it is. Board is easy to check. It looks a totally different type of board ie cheap and nasty Rod On 10/21/2015 11:51 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball >> Bros. >> The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be >> obvious on inspection of the board. >> I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement >> board. >> >> Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff >> >> Rod >> >> > Is that true of the vt102 as well? > Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 21 10:52:18 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:52:18 -0500 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5627B4B2.2050504@pico-systems.com> On 10/21/2015 12:42 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > > Great film. I'm sure there are a few mockups in there. For instance, > towards the end at 17:23 there is a mockup of a console with a slim > white/black masthead. > I have a high-res copy of that photo, and here is a the lower right > corner detail enlarged: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/IBM_System_360_mockup_enlarged.jpg > > You can see a chip out of the console panel that looks like particle > board, and there are no cutouts for the button 'inserts' - they appear > glued on. Also, the numbered dials on the address switches look painted on, the 5 lights (system, manual, wait, test, load) between the interrupt and load keys appear to just be painted circles, so that one is clearly a hollywood-style mockup. > (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and > pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) > > Steve. > I believe these were just commercial Microswitch lighted pushbuttons. You may still be able to get colored buttons for them and engrave or label the legend. Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 21 13:48:55 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 11:48:55 -0700 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Oct-21, at 3:19 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > VT 100's have one weak point. The monitor is a bought in part from Ball Bros. > The Ball supplied drive board burns up a diode and cap. It will be obvious on inspection of the board. > I have never been able to get a circuit diagram or I'd do a replacement board. > > Needless to say the DEC parts are mde of sterner stuff The VT100 FMPS from bitsaver's: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/MP00633_VT100_Schematic_Feb82.pdf has schematics for two different monitor boards (pages PDF.43 & PDF.58), the first indicated as being from Ball Bros. Does that cover it? Dates on the Ball Bros version look like 78, while the other looks like 79. (Anecdotally: didn't have any problems with the power supply or monitor on the VT278 when it was powered up after many years.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 21 14:29:59 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 19:29:59 +0000 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com>, Message-ID: [VT100, etc, monitor PCB] > Is that true of the vt102 as well? I don't think I've ever worked on a VT102, but the same video monitor boards turn up in the VT100, VT105 and VT101 (at least). There are at least 3 different types, at least 2 made by Ball Brothers. From what I remember the 2 Ball Brothers ones I've seen are very similar, the main difference being the video amplifier. What is different between the terminals is the PSU. The VT100 and VT105 use an SMPSU that is actually quite friendly to work on (there is a separate linear supply to start it up, the pscillator and control circuits are on the output side of the isolation barrier with transformer coupling to the base of the chopper. The VT101 has a big mains transformer and a linear regualtor board. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 14:52:03 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:52:03 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:29 PM, tony duell wrote: > [VT100, etc, monitor PCB] > > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? > > I don't think I've ever worked on a VT102, but the same video monitor > boards turn up > in the VT100, VT105 and VT101 (at least). There are at least 3 different > types, at least > 2 made by Ball Brothers. From what I remember the 2 Ball Brothers ones > I've seen are > very similar, the main difference being the video amplifier. > > What is different between the terminals is the PSU. The VT100 and VT105 > use an SMPSU > that is actually quite friendly to work on (there is a separate linear > supply to start it up, > the pscillator and control circuits are on the output side of the > isolation barrier with > transformer coupling to the base of the chopper. The VT101 has a big mains > transformer > and a linear regualtor board. > > -tony > VT101 and VT102 are the same, the 01 and 02 pertain to options that come with the terminal. I would *assume* they have the same PSU. -- Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 21 14:55:40 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:55:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > On 21 October 2015 at 20:52 william degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:29 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > [VT100, etc, monitor PCB] > > > > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? > > > > I don't think I've ever worked on a VT102, but the same video monitor > > boards turn up > > in the VT100, VT105 and VT101 (at least). There are at least 3 different > > types, at least > > 2 made by Ball Brothers. From what I remember the 2 Ball Brothers ones > > I've seen are > > very similar, the main difference being the video amplifier. > > > > What is different between the terminals is the PSU. The VT100 and VT105 > > use an SMPSU > > that is actually quite friendly to work on (there is a separate linear > > supply to start it up, > > the pscillator and control circuits are on the output side of the > > isolation barrier with > > transformer coupling to the base of the chopper. The VT101 has a big mains > > transformer > > and a linear regualtor board. > > > > -tony > > > > VT101 and VT102 are the same, the 01 and 02 pertain to options that come > with the terminal. I would *assume* they have the same PSU. > > -- > Bill I have a 101 and a 102 and can confirm that the PSUs in both of mine are identical. Regards rob From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Oct 21 15:38:08 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 22:38:08 +0200 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5627F7B0.8050609@ljw.me.uk> On 21/10/15 07:42, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert > and pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) > Steve. For what it's worth, I'm also looking for a red INTERRUPT button for a /30 - I suspect it's identical, so if you find two... -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:24:23 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:24:23 -0500 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. The VT103 is different Paul On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > > > > On 21 October 2015 at 20:52 william degnan wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:29 PM, tony duell > wrote: > > > > > [VT100, etc, monitor PCB] > > > > > > > Is that true of the vt102 as well? > > > > > > I don't think I've ever worked on a VT102, but the same video monitor > > > boards turn up > > > in the VT100, VT105 and VT101 (at least). There are at least 3 > different > > > types, at least > > > 2 made by Ball Brothers. From what I remember the 2 Ball Brothers ones > > > I've seen are > > > very similar, the main difference being the video amplifier. > > > > > > What is different between the terminals is the PSU. The VT100 and VT105 > > > use an SMPSU > > > that is actually quite friendly to work on (there is a separate linear > > > supply to start it up, > > > the pscillator and control circuits are on the output side of the > > > isolation barrier with > > > transformer coupling to the base of the chopper. The VT101 has a big > mains > > > transformer > > > and a linear regualtor board. > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > VT101 and VT102 are the same, the 01 and 02 pertain to options that come > > with the terminal. I would *assume* they have the same PSU. > > > > -- > > Bill > > I have a 101 and a 102 and can confirm that the PSUs in both of mine are > identical. > > Regards > > rob > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 21 20:06:28 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:06:28 -0700 Subject: LA-36 DECWriter II Keyboard Assembly Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CD0@mail.bensene.com> Hello, all, I have an otherwise good DECWriter II (LA-36) terminal that has a bad keyboard. A number of the keyswitches are messed up (the little gold contacts are mangled or the switch assembly itself is damaged), and the nature of the Cherry-made keyboard in this thing is that the keyswitch modules are not individually replaceable. I'm querying the list to see if anyone out there may have a parts LA-36, or a spare keyboard assembly for same that I can get my hands on. I'd like to get this thing running again, but with a bad keyboard, even though it all works great (I can test that the keys that are messed up are scanned properly by shorting across the PCB traces and the terminal responds appropriately), it's pretty much useless. Somewhere in the life of this machine something HEAVY fell/dropped on the keyboard, and about 1/3rd of the keyswitches ended up getting mangled as well as some of the keycaps. The only option appears to be to find a replacement for the whole keyboard assembly. Thanks in advance, -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 22:03:50 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 22:03:50 -0500 Subject: LA-36 DECWriter II Keyboard Assembly In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CD0@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CD0@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: There are a few to choose from: keyboard without numeric keypad keyboard with numeric keypad numeric keypad only I'm not going to guess at the part numbers . Contact me off list when you get a chance. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > > I have an otherwise good DECWriter II (LA-36) terminal that has a bad > keyboard. A number of the keyswitches are messed up (the little gold > contacts are mangled or the switch assembly itself is damaged), and the > nature of the Cherry-made keyboard in this thing is that the keyswitch > modules are not individually replaceable. > > I'm querying the list to see if anyone out there may have a parts LA-36, > or a spare keyboard assembly for same that I can get my hands on. I'd like > to get this thing running again, but with a bad keyboard, even though it > all works great (I can test that the keys that are messed up are scanned > properly by shorting across the PCB traces and the terminal responds > appropriately), it's pretty much useless. > > Somewhere in the life of this machine something HEAVY fell/dropped on the > keyboard, and about 1/3rd of the keyswitches ended up getting mangled as > well as some of the keycaps. The only option appears to be to find a > replacement for the whole keyboard assembly. > > Thanks in advance, > > -Rick > --- > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 17:00:56 2015 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:00:56 +0200 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: Hi, >> Oscar is already working on another very promising product. >> [..]He will also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. Sorry, can't say more >> I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... Thanks for the kind words on my strange replica mania! We all need to do silly things at some point in our lives. No secret... I'd love to do an "Open Source Hardware" PDP-11/70 replica (or remake - whatever choice of words is preferred). Electronically, it would a simple variation on the PiDP-8 (i.e., simh brains on a Raspberry Pi, hiding behind a front panel PCB). It's just a different emulator from the simh stable with less LEDs. But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. If anyone here *does* have know-how in this field, I'd love any advice. I got some preliminary quotes and recommendations on making a case replica using vacuum forming. Which is relatively cheap. Not perfect, but low cost is very important for such a gadget. Kind regards, Oscar. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 00:37:01 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:37:01 +1300 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well done. Have you looked at 3D printing? Not fast, not especially cheap, but potentially the least difficult developmentally. And once it's set up you can just let her rip and churn them out. This is only going in one direction of course... once you have the 11/70 nailed, you *have* to do a pdp-15... which leads logically to a pdp-12, since the bezel/frame is identical... two for the price/effort of one! And then just scale it up for a KA10... :-) I love your 8/I, having a lot of fun with that! But I'm not sure there's a compelling reason not to do these as 1/1 scale replicas going forward? Because if you do 1/1 scale, you also have a market for replica bezels, switches etc with people who are restoring *real* hardware... Maybe we can crowdsource a bit here... we do it with FOSS of course, why not hardware? "you do the switches, I'll do the frame, Oscar has the electronics covered..." - I'm sure there would be enough interest. Mike On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Oscar Vermeulen wrote: > Hi, > >>> Oscar is already working on another very promising product. >>> [..]He will > also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. > Sorry, can't say more >>> I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he > want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... > > Thanks for the kind words on my strange replica mania! We all need to do silly things at some point in our lives. > > No secret... I'd love to do an "Open Source Hardware" PDP-11/70 replica (or remake - whatever choice of words is preferred). Electronically, it would a simple variation on the PiDP-8 (i.e., simh brains on a Raspberry Pi, hiding behind a front panel PCB). It's just a different emulator from the simh stable with less LEDs. > > But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. > > If anyone here *does* have know-how in this field, I'd love any advice. I got some preliminary quotes and recommendations on making a case replica using vacuum forming. Which is relatively cheap. Not perfect, but low cost is very important for such a gadget. > > Kind regards, > > Oscar. > > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 22 03:50:40 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: > The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 06:03:15 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:03:15 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2015 4:51 AM, "Christian Corti" wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. > > > If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? > > Christian Yes. For example 80/132 column is an option you can add. IFRC there is a doc (user guide?) that has details of vt10x options and what options together made up the vt100 vs 102. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Oct 22 06:14:29 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:14:29 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:42:45 +1000" References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Steve wrote: > > (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and > pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) > Is this for a mockup or a real 360/40 console? Regards, Peter Coghlan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 06:35:13 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:35:13 +0000 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> , Message-ID: > > > The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. > > If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? I don't think there was an official way to do it (from what I remember the VT101 was sold as a 'closed' terminal (maybe replace the logic board), but the VT101 logic board has a lot of spare IC positions, etc, which I guess are used in the VT102. I've not seen printsets for either, but if you could find them you could probably work out what was needed. My guess, too, is that the ROMs have to be changed, meaning you would need to copy a set from a VT102. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 07:06:49 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 08:06:49 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 7:35 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > > The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. > > > > If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? > > I don't think there was an official way to do it (from what I remember the > VT101 was > sold as a 'closed' terminal (maybe replace the logic board), but the VT101 > logic board > has a lot of spare IC positions, etc, which I guess are used in the VT102. > I've not seen > printsets for either, but if you could find them you could probably work > out what > was needed. My guess, too, is that the ROMs have to be changed, meaning > you would > need to copy a set from a VT102. > > -tony > I often post to this forum with my VT102 via Raspberry Pi. -- Bill From steven at malikoff.com Thu Oct 22 07:13:17 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:13:17 +1000 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? From: "Peter Coghlan" Date: Thu, October 22, 2015 9:14 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Steve wrote: >> >> (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and >> pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) >> > > Is this for a mockup or a real 360/40 console? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > Oh, it's quite real :) I have some ideas on machining the inserts from blocks of ABS plastic, incuding the curved depression on the front. I have some red ABS that is the right colour but not thick enough so I'll pay another visit to the plastics shop to get something more suitable. Just another of my gunnadoos... A lot of consoles are mounted on the wall or in a wooden frame, which is ok but doesn't excite me very much. So.... My display concept is to replicate the front of the 2040 CPU to approx 100mm depth, using a welded steel frame and painted wood or folded sheetmetal sides. The masthead to go on top (I have derived the measurements of the screw posts in CAD, another machining job). The frame supports the console and the operator table. I've cut a replica of the 2040 operator's table from a large white Laminex benchtop using the measurements from page 40 of GC22-6820-12 System 360 Installation Manual Physical Planning. That doesn't give the table thickness so I derived it in CAD from some period photos, and my table is close (and didn't cost me anything as it was being thrown out at work!). I've almost finished replicating the iconic Eames PSCC-4 secretary's shell chair seen in many, many 360 machine rooms (and the 360 SLT video discussed here) using an original Eames base/castors with an ABS replica shell. Would you believe the modern shell's screw holes align perfectly with the original base!. A real PSCC-4 is > $700 USD on eBay but mine is working aout about $120 USD with a lot of that being postage from the US. With the originals it's the fibreglass shell that's the pricey bit, the bases are much cheaper. I have drawn the cushions in CAD from photos but have yet to make them, most likely in some lurid red vinyl to give it that 60s/70s look. BTW I've also seen the PSCC-4 chair appear in 370, DEC, Teletype photos, and a variant in a Bendix G15 advertisement. I would like to get a few square metres of vintage raised floor tiles, but have not had much luck here in Oz. That's something that would be prohibitively expensive to import. No ideas yet on how to replicate them but couldn't be too hard. Then all I need is the 1052 hahahahahahahaha I did have an MTST I/O writer long ago but that has been lost in moving aaaarrrgggh :( Anyway I have ideas for that too. From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 22 07:26:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:26:31 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-22 13:03, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 22, 2015 4:51 AM, "Christian Corti" > wrote: >> >> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> >>> The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. >> >> >> If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? >> >> Christian > > Yes. For example 80/132 column is an option you can add. IFRC there is a > doc (user guide?) that has details of vt10x options and what options > together made up the vt100 vs 102. Note that while in theory the AVO was an added option, the VT102 did not have it (or the printer port) as separate parts that were added to a basic VT100. The VT102 had a different board with all those options already on the motherboard, and no additional options could be installed. So, you cannot take the AVO options out of a VT102 and add it to a VT100 (for example). Also, for example, the keyboard on a VT100 differs from a VT102. You could use a VT100 keyboard on a VT102, and vice versa, but the LEDs on the keyboard of a VT102 are used for different things than on a VT100. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 08:05:12 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:05:12 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > >> Note that while in theory the AVO was an added option, the VT102 did not > have it (or the printer port) as separate parts that were added to a basic > VT100. The VT102 had a different board with all those options already on > the motherboard, and no additional options could be installed. > > So, you cannot take the AVO options out of a VT102 and add it to a VT100 > (for example). > > Also, for example, the keyboard on a VT100 differs from a VT102. > You could use a VT100 keyboard on a VT102, and vice versa, but the LEDs on > the keyboard of a VT102 are used for different things than on a VT100. > > Johnny > Thanks for the clarification. I you're saying for the 101 and 102 you start with a core terminal at the factory and they add the options or it's a field upgrade kind of thing because parts not swapped out easily or added. I confirm about the ROMs too, I noticed that the SetUp menus differ depending on what options are installed. From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 22 08:15:23 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:15:23 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-22 15:05, william degnan wrote: >> >> >>> Note that while in theory the AVO was an added option, the VT102 did not >> have it (or the printer port) as separate parts that were added to a basic >> VT100. The VT102 had a different board with all those options already on >> the motherboard, and no additional options could be installed. >> >> So, you cannot take the AVO options out of a VT102 and add it to a VT100 >> (for example). >> >> Also, for example, the keyboard on a VT100 differs from a VT102. >> You could use a VT100 keyboard on a VT102, and vice versa, but the LEDs on >> the keyboard of a VT102 are used for different things than on a VT100. >> >> Johnny >> > > Thanks for the clarification. I you're saying for the 101 and 102 you > start with a core terminal at the factory and they add the options or it's > a field upgrade kind of thing because parts not swapped out easily or > added. I confirm about the ROMs too, I noticed that the SetUp menus differ > depending on what options are installed. No. The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look different. The VT102 have a motherboard with the AVO and printer option integrated into the motherboard itself. A VT100 with the options added will have a daughterboard and components added to it's motherboard. So, the VT102 do not start out as a VT100 and then some stuff added. There were (if I remember right) some other options for the VT100 as well. You cannot add those other options to a VT102 either. The VT102 is pretty much a fixed and finished product as it is. The VT100 on the other hand could be expanded in various ways. The VT102 was basically a cost reduced solution with a fixed set of options, which were the ones most commonly asked for and used. And, as I mentioned, they redesignated some keyboard LEDs on the VT102 for specific information. Thus, on a VT100 you have four user programmable LEDs on the keyboard, but on the VT102 you only have one. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 08:32:04 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:32:04 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Let me clarify... I agree the 100 is a separate machine from the "core 101/102" terminal, even with the same options. On my vt100 the ROM is different than my vt102, but my 100 has the 132 char graphics upgrade so it's functionally like the 102 in that way. Looks differently inside. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-22 15:05, william degnan wrote: > >> >>> >>> Note that while in theory the AVO was an added option, the VT102 did not >>>> >>> have it (or the printer port) as separate parts that were added to a >>> basic >>> VT100. The VT102 had a different board with all those options already on >>> the motherboard, and no additional options could be installed. >>> >>> So, you cannot take the AVO options out of a VT102 and add it to a VT100 >>> (for example). >>> >>> Also, for example, the keyboard on a VT100 differs from a VT102. >>> You could use a VT100 keyboard on a VT102, and vice versa, but the LEDs >>> on >>> the keyboard of a VT102 are used for different things than on a VT100. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >> Thanks for the clarification. I you're saying for the 101 and 102 you >> start with a core terminal at the factory and they add the options or it's >> a field upgrade kind of thing because parts not swapped out easily or >> added. I confirm about the ROMs too, I noticed that the SetUp menus >> differ >> depending on what options are installed. >> > > No. > > The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). > However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and > printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look > different. > > The VT102 have a motherboard with the AVO and printer option integrated > into the motherboard itself. A VT100 with the options added will have a > daughterboard and components added to it's motherboard. > > So, the VT102 do not start out as a VT100 and then some stuff added. > > There were (if I remember right) some other options for the VT100 as well. > You cannot add those other options to a VT102 either. The VT102 is pretty > much a fixed and finished product as it is. The VT100 on the other hand > could be expanded in various ways. > > The VT102 was basically a cost reduced solution with a fixed set of > options, which were the ones most commonly asked for and used. > > And, as I mentioned, they redesignated some keyboard LEDs on the VT102 for > specific information. Thus, on a VT100 you have four user programmable LEDs > on the keyboard, but on the VT102 you only have one. > > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- Bill From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 22 09:27:50 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:27:50 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5628F266.8020005@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-22 15:32, william degnan wrote: > Let me clarify... I agree the 100 is a separate machine from the "core > 101/102" terminal, even with the same options. > > On my vt100 the ROM is different than my vt102, but my 100 has the 132 char > graphics upgrade so it's functionally like the 102 in that way. Looks > differently inside. Having 132 columns does not necessarily mean anything. A standard VT100 have 132 columns. However, it only have 12 lines when in 132 column mode. It also have only one attribute on characters, which is either underline or reverse. And that depends on what style of cursor you have. The AVO options adds 132 columns with 24 lines, as well as all four attributes. Johnny > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-10-22 15:05, william degnan wrote: >> >>> >>>> >>>> Note that while in theory the AVO was an added option, the VT102 did not >>>>> >>>> have it (or the printer port) as separate parts that were added to a >>>> basic >>>> VT100. The VT102 had a different board with all those options already on >>>> the motherboard, and no additional options could be installed. >>>> >>>> So, you cannot take the AVO options out of a VT102 and add it to a VT100 >>>> (for example). >>>> >>>> Also, for example, the keyboard on a VT100 differs from a VT102. >>>> You could use a VT100 keyboard on a VT102, and vice versa, but the LEDs >>>> on >>>> the keyboard of a VT102 are used for different things than on a VT100. >>>> >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>> >>> Thanks for the clarification. I you're saying for the 101 and 102 you >>> start with a core terminal at the factory and they add the options or it's >>> a field upgrade kind of thing because parts not swapped out easily or >>> added. I confirm about the ROMs too, I noticed that the SetUp menus >>> differ >>> depending on what options are installed. >>> >> >> No. >> >> The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). >> However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and >> printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look >> different. >> >> The VT102 have a motherboard with the AVO and printer option integrated >> into the motherboard itself. A VT100 with the options added will have a >> daughterboard and components added to it's motherboard. >> >> So, the VT102 do not start out as a VT100 and then some stuff added. >> >> There were (if I remember right) some other options for the VT100 as well. >> You cannot add those other options to a VT102 either. The VT102 is pretty >> much a fixed and finished product as it is. The VT100 on the other hand >> could be expanded in various ways. >> >> The VT102 was basically a cost reduced solution with a fixed set of >> options, which were the ones most commonly asked for and used. >> >> And, as I mentioned, they redesignated some keyboard LEDs on the VT102 for >> specific information. Thus, on a VT100 you have four user programmable LEDs >> on the keyboard, but on the VT102 you only have one. >> >> >> Johnny >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 22 09:32:22 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:32:22 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> > On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > ... > The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look different. That doesn't sound right. The way I remember it is that the VT100 comes in several configurations (for example AVO or not) and you can field modify it from one to another. On the other hand, the VT101 and VT102 are fixed configs (that is, not intended to be field upgradable), roughly matching the base and AVO versions of the VT100 in functionality. It may be that you could, with enough knowledge, turn a VT101 into a VT102 or vice versa, but that wasn't a supported operation from what I remember. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 22 09:36:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:36:59 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5628F48B.9010707@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-22 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> ... >> The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look different. > > That doesn't sound right. > > The way I remember it is that the VT100 comes in several configurations (for example AVO or not) and you can field modify it from one to another. > > On the other hand, the VT101 and VT102 are fixed configs (that is, not intended to be field upgradable), roughly matching the base and AVO versions of the VT100 in functionality. > > It may be that you could, with enough knowledge, turn a VT101 into a VT102 or vice versa, but that wasn't a supported operation from what I remember. Paul, I think you just said the same thing I did. Did you misunderstand me, or did I do a typo somewhere? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 09:48:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:48:12 +0000 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se>, <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The way I remember it is that the VT100 comes in several configurations (for example AVO or > not) and you can field modify it from one to another. > > On the other hand, the VT101 and VT102 are fixed configs (that is, not intended to be field > upgradable), roughly matching the base and AVO versions of the VT100 in functionality. That is basically how I remember it too. The VT100 was terminal that could be field-upgraded, the AVO [1] added, printer port added, graph board (VT105) added, and so on. The VT101 is (officially) a fixed-configuration terminal, similar in features to a 'base' VT100 The VT102 is a fixed-configuration terminal similar in featurers to a VT100 with AVO and printer port (?) Internally the chassis metalwork and PSU are very different between the VT100 and the VT101/VT102 The logic boards are different too, but from what I remember the circuit ideas are much the same, the same 2 custom chips are used in the video circuit of all these terminals. Am I remembering correctly, the VT100 uses an 8080 processor, the VT101 (and VT102 I guess) has an 8085? [1] That acronym is a bit strange for me. Over here, AVO (standing for Amps, Volts, Ohms) is a famous brand of multimeter (analogue and digital) and also other test gear like signal generators and valve testers. It is one of those trademarks like 'Hoover; that has almost become generic, people over here will ask for an 'Avo' meaning a multimeter. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 22 10:07:09 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:07:09 -0400 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <5628F48B.9010707@update.uu.se> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> <5628F48B.9010707@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <14279342-71CD-4EF0-A67E-7AD655238228@comcast.net> > On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-10-22 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look different. >> >> That doesn't sound right. >> >> The way I remember it is that the VT100 comes in several configurations (for example AVO or not) and you can field modify it from one to another. >> >> On the other hand, the VT101 and VT102 are fixed configs (that is, not intended to be field upgradable), roughly matching the base and AVO versions of the VT100 in functionality. >> >> It may be that you could, with enough knowledge, turn a VT101 into a VT102 or vice versa, but that wasn't a supported operation from what I remember. > > Paul, I think you just said the same thing I did. Did you misunderstand me, or did I do a typo somewhere? No, you said that the VT100 is field upgradeable to the VT101 and/or VT102. And I said that there are several VT100 variants, and that a VT100-xx is field upgradeable to a VT100-yy. But no VT101 or VT102 is field upgradeable to anything else, nor is a VT100 field upgradeable to a VT101 or VT102. To elaborate: the VT101 and VT102 are a generation after the VT100, each fixed config. I'm guessing that the fixed config thing was done, as well as the other changes in the details, to reduce cost. Cost reducing a product while leaving its features largely untouched was a standard thing to do at DEC (and for that matter is a standard thing to do at any manufacturing organization). paul From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 22 10:12:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:12:37 +0200 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: <14279342-71CD-4EF0-A67E-7AD655238228@comcast.net> References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <5628D5F7.1030107@update.uu.se> <5628E16B.6080006@update.uu.se> <775EA32F-7F83-42F9-B1D8-9341239AB3A5@comcast.net> <5628F48B.9010707@update.uu.se> <14279342-71CD-4EF0-A67E-7AD655238228@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5628FCE5.5030101@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-22 17:07, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-10-22 16:32, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> The VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT101 (I think) or a VT102 (I know). However, the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer. Functionally they are the same, but inside they will look different. >>> >>> That doesn't sound right. >>> >>> The way I remember it is that the VT100 comes in several configurations (for example AVO or not) and you can field modify it from one to another. >>> >>> On the other hand, the VT101 and VT102 are fixed configs (that is, not intended to be field upgradable), roughly matching the base and AVO versions of the VT100 in functionality. >>> >>> It may be that you could, with enough knowledge, turn a VT101 into a VT102 or vice versa, but that wasn't a supported operation from what I remember. >> >> Paul, I think you just said the same thing I did. Did you misunderstand me, or did I do a typo somewhere? > > No, you said that the VT100 is field upgradeable to the VT101 and/or VT102. And I said that there are several VT100 variants, and that a VT100-xx is field upgradeable to a VT100-yy. But no VT101 or VT102 is field upgradeable to anything else, nor is a VT100 field upgradeable to a VT101 or VT102. What I said was that the VT100 is field upgradeable to a VT102, but that this would be a functional equivalent to a VT102. They will look very different inside. I said that the VT102 is not the same as a VT100 with the added AVO and printer port. Read the full paragraph. > To elaborate: the VT101 and VT102 are a generation after the VT100, each fixed config. I'm guessing that the fixed config thing was done, as well as the other changes in the details, to reduce cost. Cost reducing a product while leaving its features largely untouched was a standard thing to do at DEC (and for that matter is a standard thing to do at any manufacturing organization). Yes. And I said that as well. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From azd30 at telus.net Thu Oct 22 10:31:55 2015 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1959852068.16786225.1445527915386.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> I have both of Oscar's awesome kits... the PiDP8 is nice in the small form factor since it's 'lugabble', but a 1/1 replica sitting in a 19" rack, now that would be something. I'm pretty sure that the price for producing the kit would be directly proportional to the scale though. But, as Mike mentioned there might be a market for the switches... -- alex ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ross" > Subject: Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... [...snip...] > I love your 8/I, having a lot of fun with that! But I'm not sure > there's a compelling reason not to do these as 1/1 scale replicas > going forward? [...snip...] From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Oct 22 10:21:08 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:21:08 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:13:17 +1000" <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PS7W89T0ZS009F3P@beyondthepale.ie> > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Re: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? > From: "Peter Coghlan" > Date: Thu, October 22, 2015 9:14 pm > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Steve wrote: > >> > >> (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and > >> pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) > >> > > > > Is this for a mockup or a real 360/40 console? > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan > > > > Oh, it's quite real :) I have some ideas on machining the inserts from blocks > of ABS plastic, incuding the curved depression on the front. I have some red ABS that is > the right colour but not thick enough so I'll pay another visit to the plastics shop to > get something more suitable. Just another of my gunnadoos... > > A lot of consoles are mounted on the wall or in a wooden frame, which is ok but doesn't > excite me very much. So.... > My display concept is to replicate the front of the 2040 CPU to approx 100mm depth, using > a welded steel frame and painted wood or folded sheetmetal sides. The masthead to go on > top (I have derived the measurements of the screw posts in CAD, another machining job). > The frame supports the console and the operator table. > I guess what I should have said is something more like are you starting with a 360 console that has a few bits missing or are you starting from scratch? Is this console going to end up in some way functional by being connected to a real 360 (doesn't sound like it when you say replicate the front of the CPU) or maybe to a 360 emulator? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 22 11:01:35 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:01:35 -0500 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5629085F.4090108@pico-systems.com> On 10/22/2015 07:13 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> Steve wrote: >>> (By the way - I'm looking for a red INTERRUPT insert, red STOP insert and >>> pearl POWER ON insert for my 360/40 console, if anyone can help :) >>> >> Is this for a mockup or a real 360/40 console? >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan >> > Oh, it's quite real :) I have some ideas on machining the inserts from blocks > of ABS plastic, incuding the curved depression on the front. I have some red ABS that is > the right colour but not thick enough so I'll pay another visit to the plastics shop to > get something more suitable. Just another of my gunnadoos... > > I have a box of Honeywell pushbutton inserts from various machines scrapped over the years. I have a couple translucent red ones that are real deep, and look a lot like they would fit the switches on a 360. They are .980" wide, .749 high and .693" deep. (24.9 mm W, 19 mm H and 17.6 mm deep) They have a groove on the rear top and bottom that the clip of the switch grabs them by. They are not ABS, as they are translucent. I also have 2 each, green and white versions of these same items. I don't know if these will fit your console switches, but if they will, you are welcome to them. I also have a bunch of the two-piece buttons that are more typical of the Honeywell switches, they have a colored insert and a clear snap-on cover. You can put a piece of film between these to create a legend. Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 11:40:24 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:40:24 -0400 Subject: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project? In-Reply-To: <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1766744360.538532.1445366132599.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5626B8B0.3050200@charter.net> <20151020223929.GJ28361@n0jcf.net> <5626F9C5.1020002@pico-systems.com> <01PS7N1CYS9E00A44O@beyondthepale.ie> <9d44a18f4e0561d5c4115543c890bb2a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:13 AM, wrote: > I've almost finished replicating the iconic Eames PSCC-4... > ... A real PSCC-4 is > $700 USD on eBay Earlier this year, a local small village upgraded their town hall auditorium seating and recouped thousands of dollars selling the chair shells on eBay. I was surprised at what a 50-year-old hunk of fiberglass sells for now. > I would like to get a few square metres of vintage raised floor tiles, but have not had > much luck here in Oz. That's something that would be prohibitively expensive to import. > No ideas yet on how to replicate them but couldn't be too hard. I have some steel-backed tiles that were newish in 1982 and from the weight, they would be incredibly expensive to send to Oz. More recent tiles I've seen are aluminum-backed and weigh far less, but they aren't period-correct for the late 60s. -ethan From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 22 12:31:10 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:31:10 +0200 Subject: DecServer 550 chassis In-Reply-To: <20151020073814.GA49753@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <56249BF8.1060909@jwsss.com> <20151019074221.GC11313@Update.UU.SE> <56251A40.4060704@jwsss.com> <56252246.7080506@update.uu.se> <56253D1A.6050003@jwsss.com> <562546F5.90706@update.uu.se> <56255C9E.9030506@jwsss.com> <56257A7E.9060203@update.uu.se> <20151020073814.GA49753@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20151022173110.GA74710@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > On 2015-10-19 23:11, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > > > > >On 10/19/2015 12:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >>Well, you did ask for "thoughts in the conversion", so I gave you > > >>mine. Sorry if you felt they were unhelpful. I just thought the > > >>"conversion" was basically a no-work. Programming proms is something I > > >>have spent more time than I can count on, and is so routine that I > > >>don't even think about it. > > >> > > >I didn't mean that in disrespect. The contents of what I posted was on > > >the page and I basically needed the binaries and needed some direction > > >as to which went where. I appreciate you taking time to reply, but am > > >coming from a lot less capability than you have. I do a lot of > > >computing and the like, but I've purposely not kept up with eprom > > >technology to the point that i can't reliably swear I can program them > > >right now. > > > > > >There are only so many things one can keep up with and eproms were not > > >one that was cheap to follow, and I was more into EE type devices anyway. > > > > Well, EPROMs are getting sortof old fashioned nowadays. > > > > >I may need a favor by swapping you some of my eproms (I have a 12" x 12" > > >x 12" box of pulls) maybe to get you to make me a set for my board. > > > > Unfortunately all of my stuff in Sweden, while I nowadays live in > > Switzerland. So I could only possibly help out next summer. > > But I probably would have some 27256 around. > > > > >I've pulled out probably 500 and returned them to the original owner and > > >owe him more. but I do probably have a lot of the 27xx proms. > > > > > >Do you think these are 27C or just straight 27 type eproms, and if so > > >what speeds? That is what I need to know too. > > > > I normally don't care about that. The difference is in how you program > > them, and there are more variations than that. Fortunately my programmer > > knows a whole bunch of them, and also can autodetect the different models. > > > > But once they are programmed, the actual pins are the same, so speed is > > the only possible issue. But I think most of them are 125ns, which is > > fast enough anyway. > > > > I replaced the firmware in some 11/93 boards a few years ago. But I > > think I just reused the existing proms that time. > > > > But I don't have any 11/53 boards, so I can't do that here. > > > > Johnny > > > > I can do a look later this day. I've done exatly this some years before, > and the KDJ11 that is working now as plain CPU isn't in a machine > currently so I have it handy. > > As far as I remember I've used 27C256 Proms and the contents of the > previous ones are on Pete's archive since they where newer then the > images he had. > I've updated the memory from 512K to 1,5Mb too... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- Looked at my KDJ11 Board today (sorry for the delay). I have twp peaces 27128A on this board. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From useddec at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 12:48:02 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:48:02 -0500 Subject: VT100 and/or VT105 rescued from scrap In-Reply-To: References: <562667C4.3000906@krankikom.de> <562766C5.80402@btinternet.com> <361712394.204208.1445457340451.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: You can turn a 101 into a 102 by simply replacing the logic board. The 101, 102, 131, and 132 are all interchangeable. The only option they will support is the 20 ma option. The basic keyboards are basically the same, but the caps and functions may vary with unit and software. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:03 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 22, 2015 4:51 AM, "Christian Corti" > > wrote: > > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> > >> The VT101,02,31, and 32 are the same, as are the VT100, 105, and 125. > > > > > > If you say they are the same, can you turn a VT101 into a VT102? > > > > Christian > > Yes. For example 80/132 column is an option you can add. IFRC there is a > doc (user guide?) that has details of vt10x options and what options > together made up the vt100 vs 102. > From simski at dds.nl Thu Oct 22 10:22:18 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:22:18 +0200 Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US Message-ID: <5628FF2A.2080804@dds.nl> Hi All, I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise non/half functional T100 in the usa. they need the parts for a movie. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 22 13:28:38 2015 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:28:38 +0200 Subject: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <561EC166.5020707@sydex.com> <561EC865.3090705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56292AD6.20004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Am 15.10.15 um 00:58 schrieb Ian Finder: > In fact I may need one for my HP 715. There are two variants of HP9000/715: The older versions like the 715/33 have HIL only. The newer like the 714/64 have HIL and PS/2. You _need_ that breakout box for the later to connect any keyboard or mouse. It is just a passive box with some cables and sockets. In that newer version of the machine the case opening for the HIL connector was used for the 10 pin connector to the breakout box. -- tsch??, Jochen From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 22 19:57:09 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 17:57:09 -0700 Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay Message-ID: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> Hey guys, Further to our conversation - I was looking at this beast: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121791042544?hash=item1c5b4fd3f0:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs Wasn't sure if it was two units? The first couple of pics look different. Anyway, if I understood correctly, it was possible (and possibly done in the 1970s by hobbyists) to convert one of these baudot teletypes to ASCII and use with a computer? This one is out of my reach since the auction is pick up only. But I kind of like the look of the Model 28 and I understand they're pretty bulletproof once you have them working. I'm just not sure if this would work, and if this particular one is ASR or what, because it mentions a reperforator and from what I read 28s that came with that had a tape reader also? Brad From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 22 20:11:57 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:11:57 -0700 Subject: PDP2011 board Message-ID: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> I'm not sure if the author of this nice bit of work is on here, but I'm looking at a board for this, the Altera DE-1. Unfortunately there are a plethora of Altera DE-1 boards and much puzzlement by me as to whether this is the right one. The page with the info is deficient in details to tell. The actual part which the author used is the key thing here, and not just the name of the board. I'd appreciate opinions here as to whether these will run PDP2011 or whether it will be a nice learning board for my mistake pile. http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/fpga-boards/de1/ There is currently what I think is a good specimen available if anyone is interested. http://www.ebay.com/itm/131621388597 It includes the software and docs. The current one I have was a student version sans the documents and software. I hope to get the thing going to play with sometime soon. There are so many small boards out there for very little money once I get this done and understand more about targeting this board and others I'd like to see how cheap a board this could be made to run with give the current boards. There is currently an Arm/fpga Zilog chip board now made available that would be a nifty board to make into a PDP11 if it comes out as cheap as they promise it to be. thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 20:12:42 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:12:42 -0400 Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay In-Reply-To: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> References: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: I seem to remember that the Tech Processor Technologies 3P+S described how to get a model 28 running with its IO board. You'd have to check that, but sure why not? It's just harder to do anything with a machine that's not really made for systems that generally-speaking look for ascii and 8 bit tape to read in programs. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > Further to our conversation - I was looking at this beast: > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- > 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121791042544?hash=item1c5b4fd3f0:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs > > > > Wasn't sure if it was two units? The first couple of pics look different. > Anyway, if I understood correctly, it was possible (and possibly done in > the > 1970s by hobbyists) to convert one of these baudot teletypes to ASCII and > use with a computer? This one is out of my reach since the auction is pick > up only. But I kind of like the look of the Model 28 and I understand > they're pretty bulletproof once you have them working. I'm just not sure > if > this would work, and if this particular one is ASR or what, because it > mentions a reperforator and from what I read 28s that came with that had a > tape reader also? > > > > Brad > > > > > > -- Bill From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 22 20:40:13 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:40:13 -0400 Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay Message-ID: <118b50.2a47ec8e.435ae9fc@aol.com> 2 units one tape puncher thing the other table top ksr 28 other thing a Powersupply Ed Sharpe In a message dated 10/22/2015 5:57:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, unclefalter at yahoo.ca writes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater- 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121791042544?hash=item1c5b4fd3f0:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 22 20:54:26 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:54:26 -0600 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56299352.10701@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2015 7:11 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I'm not sure if the author of this nice bit of work is on here, but I'm > looking at a board for this, the Altera DE-1. Unfortunately there are a > plethora of Altera DE-1 boards and much puzzlement by me as to whether > this is the right one. The page with the info is deficient in details > to tell. > > The actual part which the author used is the key thing here, and not > just the name of the board. I'd appreciate opinions here as to whether > these will run PDP2011 or whether it will be a nice learning board for > my mistake pile. > > http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/fpga-boards/de1/ That just looks like mine! > It includes the software and docs. The current one I have was a student > version sans the documents and software. If you have FPGA just get a pirate hat and version 9 of the software and docs. > thanks > Jim > Ben. PS: if you need the FPGA board by direct from terasic while they still have them. www.terasic.com From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Oct 22 22:44:13 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:44:13 -0700 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> On 10/22/2015 6:11 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I'm not sure if the author of this nice bit of work is on here, but I'm > looking at a board for this, the Altera DE-1. Unfortunately there are a > plethora of Altera DE-1 boards and much puzzlement by me as to whether this is > the right one. The page with the info is deficient in details to tell. > > The actual part which the author used is the key thing here, and not just the > name of the board. I'd appreciate opinions here as to whether these will run > PDP2011 or whether it will be a nice learning board for my mistake pile. > > http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/fpga-boards/de1/ > > There is currently what I think is a good specimen available if anyone is > interested. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/131621388597 > > It includes the software and docs. The current one I have was a student > version sans the documents and software. > > I hope to get the thing going to play with sometime soon. There are so many > small boards out there for very little money once I get this done and > understand more about targeting this board and others I'd like to see how > cheap a board this could be made to run with give the current boards. > > There is currently an Arm/fpga Zilog chip board now made available that would > be a nifty board to make into a PDP11 if it comes out as cheap as they promise > it to be. > > thanks > Jim I have one of the DE1 CycloneII device boards and at this point that family (CycloneII) is a bit old. If you can get it really cheap (<<$50) go for it, but the last Altera toolset that supports CycloneII is v13.0sp1 (v15.0 is current). I have moved most all my new experimentation on to the CycloneIV and CycloneV family devices. If you plan to use a board going forward for some time, the newer CycloneV based boards are a better choice: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=13&List=Simple#Category167 In particular the DE0-CV has a lot of nice features for implementing a PDP-11 ($150): http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=921&PartNo=1 Or if you want to go light on the hardware design and lean more on embedded software, the DE0-NANO-SOC board ($99): http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=941 The DE0-NANO CycloneIV board ($79) is also a good choice: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=139&No=593 At this point I would stay away from CycloneIII or CycloneII boards (unless you can get one very cheap) as the tech is older. Don > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 22 23:27:43 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:27:43 -0600 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2015 9:44 PM, Don North wrote: > I have one of the DE1 CycloneII device boards and at this point that > family (CycloneII) is a bit old. > If you can get it really cheap (<<$50) go for it, but the last Altera > toolset that supports CycloneII is v13.0sp1 (v15.0 is current). > I have moved most all my new experimentation on to the CycloneIV and > CycloneV family devices. > Well just give him your unwanted DE1 card (or sell it to him) The GOTYA on the PDP11 stuff is it still uses the old SDC card format 1GB or less. > If you plan to use a board going forward for some time, the newer > CycloneV based boards are a better choice: > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=13&List=Simple#Category167 If I said what I want to say about that I would be banned from the list for foul language. > > In particular the DE0-CV has a lot of nice features for implementing a > PDP-11 ($150): > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=921&PartNo=1 Too small and for some reason I can't get a keyboard to work with it. > Or if you want to go light on the hardware design and lean more on > embedded software, the DE0-NANO-SOC board ($99): > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=941 More fowl language comes to mind! I don't see any AHDL code for using the dynamic ram. You mean I have BUY that code. I think AHDL is cleaner to program in than the other options. Is program the right term for hardware? > At this point I would stay away from CycloneIII or CycloneII boards > (unless you can get one very cheap) as the tech is older. Sometimes older is better. They dropped both async set and clear from the flip flops and just left clear. That is a BUG not a feature in my mind. [sarcasm] wait Verlog and VHDL only use latches [end sarcasm] > Don Ben. Back to building a nice LS TTL computer in a FPGA. Any one know the time the 74LS382 came out. The TTL data book says Jan 1981/revised march 1988 for S and LS chips? From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Oct 22 23:54:06 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:54:06 -0700 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> On 10/22/2015 9:27 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/22/2015 9:44 PM, Don North wrote: > >> I have one of the DE1 CycloneII device boards and at this point that >> family (CycloneII) is a bit old. >> If you can get it really cheap (<<$50) go for it, but the last Altera >> toolset that supports CycloneII is v13.0sp1 (v15.0 is current). >> I have moved most all my new experimentation on to the CycloneIV and >> CycloneV family devices. >> > > Well just give him your unwanted DE1 card (or sell it to him) > The GOTYA on the PDP11 stuff is it still uses the old SDC card > format 1GB or less. > >> If you plan to use a board going forward for some time, the newer >> CycloneV based boards are a better choice: >> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=13&List=Simple#Category167 >> > > If I said what I want to say about that > I would be banned from the list for foul language. > >> >> In particular the DE0-CV has a lot of nice features for implementing a >> PDP-11 ($150): >> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=921&PartNo=1 >> > > Too small and for some reason I can't get a keyboard to work with it. > > >> Or if you want to go light on the hardware design and lean more on >> embedded software, the DE0-NANO-SOC board ($99): >> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=941 >> > > More fowl language comes to mind! I don't see any AHDL code > for using the dynamic ram. You mean I have BUY that code. > I think AHDL is cleaner to program in than the other options. > Is program the right term for hardware? > >> At this point I would stay away from CycloneIII or CycloneII boards >> (unless you can get one very cheap) as the tech is older. > > Sometimes older is better. They dropped both async set and clear from the > flip flops and just left clear. That is a BUG not a feature in my mind. > [sarcasm] wait Verlog and VHDL only use latches [end sarcasm] > >> Don > Ben. > > Back to building a nice LS TTL computer in a FPGA. > Any one know the time the 74LS382 came out. The TTL data > book says Jan 1981/revised march 1988 for S and LS chip Wow. What can I say. AHDL. I never used that even when it was current. Proprietary to Altera. All of the warts of VHDL with none of the benefits. For PDP2011 direct compatibility then the path of least resistance is probably the DE0-NANO with CycloneIV for $79. I have several; nice little boards for experimentation. You can get it from Adafruit ($99) or Digikey as well. Direct from Terasic has high shipping cost. And if you are going to learn an FPGA development language look at SystemVerilog/Verilog, OpenCL, or VHDL. Certainly not AHDL. It was bad even when it was new. It does not get better with age. Don From classiccmp at earthlink.net Thu Oct 22 17:18:21 2015 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:18:21 -0700 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562960AD.8050402@earthlink.net> How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such stashed away waiting for the right simulator to come along... On 10/21/15 3:00 PM, Oscar Vermeulen wrote: > Hi, > >>> Oscar is already working on another very promising product. >>> [..]He will > also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. > Sorry, can't say more >>> I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he > want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... > > Thanks for the kind words on my strange replica mania! We all need to do silly things at some point in our lives. > > No secret... I'd love to do an "Open Source Hardware" PDP-11/70 replica (or remake - whatever choice of words is preferred). Electronically, it would a simple variation on the PiDP-8 (i.e., simh brains on a Raspberry Pi, hiding behind a front panel PCB). It's just a different emulator from the simh stable with less LEDs. > > But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. > > If anyone here *does* have know-how in this field, I'd love any advice. I got some preliminary quotes and recommendations on making a case replica using vacuum forming. Which is relatively cheap. Not perfect, but low cost is very important for such a gadget. > > Kind regards, > > Oscar. > > > From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Oct 22 21:45:55 2015 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:45:55 -0500 Subject: PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <3D837F4C-BE71-4C8C-A6D3-E2709D8C65E3@MatlockFamily.com> Oscar, I am very excited to hear about your PiDP-11 project. I also would urge you to go to 1:1 scale for the PDP-11/70 panel and also utilize the classic Purple and Pink color scheme. I saw Henk's PDP-11/70 reanimation and dreamed of doing one some day, and then saw Jorge Hoppe's work and contacted him when I finally was able to obtain a PDP-11/70 front panel. It was one of the later DECsystem 570 styles in Blue, light Blue and White. My project is detailed on Jorg's website as well as his projects which not only include a PDP-11/70 but also a KI-10!! Anyway interested is learning about these projects or just want to see a virtual PDP-11/70 running RSX11M+ on their Windows or Linux PCs should check out: http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/189-pdp-11-70-console-panel-on-blinkenbone You hit upon one of the key needs for these projects, a good replica bezel. In my project I had to have a plexiglass bezel laser cut then used white plastic to frame that bezel. It works but I would love to have a replica bezel. So I have thought about two other approaches to thermoforming. One is to make a silicone mold which then can be used to make new bezels from polyurethane. A video about that approach uses a 3D printed part to create a silicone mold which is then cut in half and the silicone is now the mold for more rigid polyurethane which is poured into the mold sealed allowed to cure then the part is removed and a new part is cast. It's not extremely fast like injection molding, but it could be used to make a mold from an original part if necessary. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bNFT4Dcs4 The second approach is something I used many years ago to produce some solvent resistant two holed stoppers for a lab instrument. I found some PVC stoppers that worked very well but the lab supply house quit selling them. I have a M.S. in Polymer Chemistry and was familiar with PVC plastisol that when heated to about 180 C then cooled makes a tough somewhat flexible rubber like material. If you were a child in the 1960s you may have done this with a "Thingmaker" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creepy_Crawlers The "Plasticgoop" is the PVC plasticsol and it can be made with a wide range of hardnesses and pigmented to any color as the PVC plasticsol is clear (It is what Tygon tubing is made from). To use this approach you would need a metal mold but it would not need to hold pressure like an injection molding machine. The heating can be done on a hot plate and monitored with an IR thermometer. In the day we could get a part from the mold about every 8 to 10 minutes by quenching with cold water. One other comment I would make is that it would be great to modified the SImh V4.0 to work with the PDP-11 front panel. Most of the code supporting the panels are either V3.8 or V3.9. These front panel reanimations should be part of the Simh development. Also, thanks for your wonderful PiDP-8 !! i would never have been able to afford a real PDP-8 to learn about them Mark Hi, >> Oscar is already working on another very promising product. >> [..]He will also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. Sorry, can't say more >> I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... Thanks for the kind words on my strange replica mania! We all need to do silly things at some point in our lives. No secret... I'd love to do an "Open Source Hardware" PDP-11/70 replica (or remake - whatever choice of words is preferred). Electronically, it would a simple variation on the PiDP-8 (i.e., simh brains on a Raspberry Pi, hiding behind a front panel PCB). It's just a different emulator from the simh stable with less LEDs. But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. If anyone here *does* have know-how in this field, I'd love any advice. I got some preliminary quotes and recommendations on making a case replica using vacuum forming. Which is relatively cheap. Not perfect, but low cost is very important for such a gadget. Kind regards, Oscar. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 22 23:06:55 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:06:55 -0600 Subject: PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <3D837F4C-BE71-4C8C-A6D3-E2709D8C65E3@MatlockFamily.com> References: <3D837F4C-BE71-4C8C-A6D3-E2709D8C65E3@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <5629B25F.9010807@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2015 8:45 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > Oscar, I am very excited to hear about your PiDP-11 project. I also > would urge you to go to 1:1 scale for the PDP-11/70 panel and also > utilize the classic Purple and Pink color scheme. > One other comment I would make is that it would be great to modified > the SImh V4.0 to work with the PDP-11 front panel. Most of the > code supporting the panels are either V3.8 or V3.9. These front panel > reanimations should be part of the Simh development. > How about considering making a front panel for the Altera DE1 (original) FPGA card. > Mark > > Hi, I suspect only a short time the orginal DE1 cards will be sold out and the NEW version *DOES NOT HAVE THE SDCARD SLOT* Ben. From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Oct 22 23:34:31 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:34:31 -0700 Subject: PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <5629B25F.9010807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3D837F4C-BE71-4C8C-A6D3-E2709D8C65E3@MatlockFamily.com> <5629B25F.9010807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5629B8D7.80906@alum.mit.edu> On 10/22/2015 9:06 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/22/2015 8:45 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: >> Oscar, I am very excited to hear about your PiDP-11 project. I also >> would urge you to go to 1:1 scale for the PDP-11/70 panel and also >> utilize the classic Purple and Pink color scheme. > >> One other comment I would make is that it would be great to modified >> the SImh V4.0 to work with the PDP-11 front panel. Most of the >> code supporting the panels are either V3.8 or V3.9. These front panel >> reanimations should be part of the Simh development. >> > > How about considering making a front panel for the > Altera DE1 (original) FPGA card. > >> Mark >> >> Hi, > I suspect only a short time the orginal DE1 cards will be sold out > and the NEW version *DOES NOT HAVE THE SDCARD SLOT* > Ben. > Not to worry. The newer DE0-CV board (and others with CycloneV parts) have MicroSD. Basically the same as SDcard, different physical form factor. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 19:54:50 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:54:50 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: 43 years ago around this time the Internet we use to communicate with was probably made possible because of TCP/IP, or Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol created at Stanford University. Today 3 billion people are on the net but really made it possible for this extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same time ? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. Our hobby supported through this web site keeps this history alive. Hurrah! Happy computing. Murray :) PS This week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein?s Theory of General Relativity though published in 1916 according to Wikipedia. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 23 00:09:11 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:09:11 -0600 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2015 10:54 PM, Don North wrote: > On 10/22/2015 9:27 PM, ben wrote: >> On 10/22/2015 9:44 PM, Don North wrote: >> >>> I have one of the DE1 CycloneII device boards and at this point that >>> family (CycloneII) is a bit old. >>> If you can get it really cheap (<<$50) go for it, but the last Altera >>> toolset that supports CycloneII is v13.0sp1 (v15.0 is current). >>> I have moved most all my new experimentation on to the CycloneIV and >>> CycloneV family devices. >>> >> >> Well just give him your unwanted DE1 card (or sell it to him) >> The GOTYA on the PDP11 stuff is it still uses the old SDC card >> format 1GB or less. >> >>> If you plan to use a board going forward for some time, the newer >>> CycloneV based boards are a better choice: >>> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=13&List=Simple#Category167 >>> >> >> If I said what I want to say about that >> I would be banned from the list for foul language. >> >>> >>> In particular the DE0-CV has a lot of nice features for implementing a >>> PDP-11 ($150): >>> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=921&PartNo=1 >>> >> >> Too small and for some reason I can't get a keyboard to work with it. >> >> >>> Or if you want to go light on the hardware design and lean more on >>> embedded software, the DE0-NANO-SOC board ($99): >>> http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=941 >>> >> >> More fowl language comes to mind! I don't see any AHDL code >> for using the dynamic ram. You mean I have BUY that code. >> I think AHDL is cleaner to program in than the other options. >> Is program the right term for hardware? >> >>> At this point I would stay away from CycloneIII or CycloneII boards >>> (unless you can get one very cheap) as the tech is older. >> >> Sometimes older is better. They dropped both async set and clear from the >> flip flops and just left clear. That is a BUG not a feature in my mind. >> [sarcasm] wait Verlog and VHDL only use latches [end sarcasm] >> >>> Don >> Ben. >> >> Back to building a nice LS TTL computer in a FPGA. >> Any one know the time the 74LS382 came out. The TTL data >> book says Jan 1981/revised march 1988 for S and LS chip > > Wow. What can I say. AHDL. I never used that even when it was current. > Proprietary to Altera. All of the warts of VHDL with none of the benefits. Both Verlog and VHDL leave me puzzled just how they work as logic black boxes. AHDL I can figure out how to pass parameters. > For PDP2011 direct compatibility then the path of least resistance is > probably > the DE0-NANO with CycloneIV for $79. I have several; nice little boards > for experimentation. > You can get it from Adafruit ($99) or Digikey as well. Direct from > Terasic has high shipping cost. A quick look at the PDP2011 site says that is it is too small for the optional PDP 11 features. > And if you are going to learn an FPGA development language look at > SystemVerilog/Verilog, > OpenCL, or VHDL. Certainly not AHDL. It was bad even when it was new. It > does not get better with age. I'll go back to schematic entry before I touch them. They FUCK! > Don > From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 00:15:53 2015 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:15:53 -0700 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5629C289.4050002@gmail.com> On 10/22/2015 8:44 PM, Don North wrote: > On 10/22/2015 6:11 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> I'm not sure if the author of this nice bit of work is on here, but >> I'm looking at a board for this, the Altera DE-1. Unfortunately there >> are a plethora of Altera DE-1 boards and much puzzlement by me as to >> whether this is the right one. The page with the info is deficient in >> details to tell. >> >> The actual part which the author used is the key thing here, and not >> just the name of the board. I'd appreciate opinions here as to >> whether these will run PDP2011 or whether it will be a nice learning >> board for my mistake pile. >> >> http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/pdp-11/fpga-boards/de1/ >> >> There is currently what I think is a good specimen available if anyone >> is interested. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/131621388597 >> >> It includes the software and docs. The current one I have was a >> student version sans the documents and software. >> >> I hope to get the thing going to play with sometime soon. There are >> so many small boards out there for very little money once I get this >> done and understand more about targeting this board and others I'd >> like to see how cheap a board this could be made to run with give the >> current boards. >> >> There is currently an Arm/fpga Zilog chip board now made available >> that would be a nifty board to make into a PDP11 if it comes out as >> cheap as they promise it to be. >> >> thanks >> Jim > > I have one of the DE1 CycloneII device boards and at this point that > family (CycloneII) is a bit old. > If you can get it really cheap (<<$50) go for it, but the last Altera > toolset that supports CycloneII is v13.0sp1 (v15.0 is current). > I have moved most all my new experimentation on to the CycloneIV and > CycloneV family devices. > > If you plan to use a board going forward for some time, the newer > CycloneV based boards are a better choice: > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=13&List=Simple#Category167 > > > In particular the DE0-CV has a lot of nice features for implementing a > PDP-11 ($150): > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=921&PartNo=1 > > > Or if you want to go light on the hardware design and lean more on > embedded software, the DE0-NANO-SOC board ($99): > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=941 > > > The DE0-NANO CycloneIV board ($79) is also a good choice: > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=139&No=593 > > > At this point I would stay away from CycloneIII or CycloneII boards > (unless you can get one very cheap) as the tech is older. > > Don FYI - I designed a daughter board for the DE0 nano that has the ENC424J600 Ethernet Device that he uses, an SD Card, and a FT4232 with four serial ports over a USB interface. I've got one built but haven't tried it out. Yet. I think I've got a few spare bare boards if someone wants to try one. It is fine pitch SMT. Rob. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 23 00:18:43 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:18:43 -0700 Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <011701d10d52$492c62a0$db8527e0$@yahoo.ca> Thanks! I'm just trying to figure out my options. There aren't many teletypes coming up to begin with, and finding something that I'd really like like an ASR-33 might not happen any time soon. The model 28 looks like a serious machine. It feels like something someone would have gotten cheap or free back in the day and found a way to rig up for use with a computer. But maybe not. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Model 28 Teletype on ebay I seem to remember that the Tech Processor Technologies 3P+S described how to get a model 28 running with its IO board. You'd have to check that, but sure why not? It's just harder to do anything with a machine that's not really made for systems that generally-speaking look for ascii and 8 bit tape to read in programs. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Brad wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > Further to our conversation - I was looking at this beast: > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperfo > rater- > 1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121791042544?hash=item1c5b4fd3f0:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHW > s > > > > Wasn't sure if it was two units? The first couple of pics look different. > Anyway, if I understood correctly, it was possible (and possibly done > in the 1970s by hobbyists) to convert one of these baudot teletypes to > ASCII and use with a computer? This one is out of my reach since the > auction is pick up only. But I kind of like the look of the Model 28 > and I understand they're pretty bulletproof once you have them > working. I'm just not sure if this would work, and if this particular > one is ASR or what, because it mentions a reperforator and from what I > read 28s that came with that had a tape reader also? > > > > Brad > > > > > > -- Bill ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 From north at alum.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 01:00:42 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:00:42 -0700 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5629CD0A.50605@alum.mit.edu> On 10/22/2015 10:09 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/22/2015 10:54 PM, Don North wrote: >> For PDP2011 direct compatibility then the path of least resistance is >> probably >> the DE0-NANO with CycloneIV for $79. I have several; nice little boards >> for experimentation. >> You can get it from Adafruit ($99) or Digikey as well. Direct from >> Terasic has high shipping cost. > > A quick look at the PDP2011 site says that is it is too small > for the optional PDP 11 features. > Not sure what you mean by 'too small'. The boards have the same number of header pins ((2x20)x2). You do need to wire up RS232 serial and SDcard to the DE0-NANO (burning about 8 or so pins) since they are not on the baseboard. And of course on the smaller board you don't get all the LEDs and switches. The CycloneII part on the DE1 board has fewer logic elements than does the CycloneIV part on the DE0-NANO, and has less embedded RAM blocks as well. His source has configuration files for the DE0-NANO so it is probably just a matter of recompiling. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 02:04:06 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:04:06 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? Message-ID: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> Hi all -- I acquired a Symbolics 3640 today and it came equipped with two "large" capacity Maxtor MFM drives (an XT-1140 and an XT-2190). The 1140 spins up fine and we were able to image it using Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator (yay). The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. I'm fairly sure it's not a head crash or anything like that; having gone through this a year or so ago with a similar drive that was scratch anyway, I opened it up and verified that the heads weren't stuck, and I see no evidence of a head crash after disassembly. Further, the fault does not appear to be on the logic board -- we swapped in a board from a working 2190 tonight and afterwards the drive exhibited the same symptoms. I've had this happen to other 2190s and 1140s and a few of the ESDI drives in the same family, some of which were working in my possession for weeks before failing -- has anyone else seen this? Any ideas? I'd kind of like to recover the data off of the 2190 from the 3640... drat. Thanks, Josh From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:19:07 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 04:19:07 -0400 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> There is a plastic bumper in the head/disk assembly that turns to goo. When the head retracts it hits the bumper and gets stuck in the goo. The goo will eventually win. The head will no longer load. I can't say For sure this is your disk problem but it was a verry common Maxtor failure. Joe > On Oct 23, 2015, at 3:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Hi all -- > > I acquired a Symbolics 3640 today and it came equipped with two "large" capacity Maxtor MFM drives (an XT-1140 and an XT-2190). The 1140 spins up fine and we were able to image it using Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator (yay). > > The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. > > I'm fairly sure it's not a head crash or anything like that; having gone through this a year or so ago with a similar drive that was scratch anyway, I opened it up and verified that the heads weren't stuck, and I see no evidence of a head crash after disassembly. > > Further, the fault does not appear to be on the logic board -- we swapped in a board from a working 2190 tonight and afterwards the drive exhibited the same symptoms. > > I've had this happen to other 2190s and 1140s and a few of the ESDI drives in the same family, some of which were working in my possession for weeks before failing -- has anyone else seen this? Any ideas? I'd kind of like to recover the data off of the 2190 from the 3640... drat. > > Thanks, > Josh > > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:26:41 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:26:41 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> On 10/23/15 1:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > There is a plastic bumper in the head/disk assembly that turns to goo. > When the head retracts it hits the bumper and gets stuck in the goo. The goo will eventually win. The head will no longer load. I can't say For sure this is your disk problem but it was a verry common Maxtor failure. I thought that was true for Micropolis drives (like the DEC RD53, a Micropolis 1325/1335) -- or does the Maxtor have a rubber bumper as well? As I said I had one open and the heads were not stuck (I could move them with my finger -- while the drive was spinning of course :)) and I didn't notice any goo-laden parts, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place... - Josh > > Joe > >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 3:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Hi all -- >> >> I acquired a Symbolics 3640 today and it came equipped with two "large" capacity Maxtor MFM drives (an XT-1140 and an XT-2190). The 1140 spins up fine and we were able to image it using Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator (yay). >> >> The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. >> >> I'm fairly sure it's not a head crash or anything like that; having gone through this a year or so ago with a similar drive that was scratch anyway, I opened it up and verified that the heads weren't stuck, and I see no evidence of a head crash after disassembly. >> >> Further, the fault does not appear to be on the logic board -- we swapped in a board from a working 2190 tonight and afterwards the drive exhibited the same symptoms. >> >> I've had this happen to other 2190s and 1140s and a few of the ESDI drives in the same family, some of which were working in my possession for weeks before failing -- has anyone else seen this? Any ideas? I'd kind of like to recover the data off of the 2190 from the 3640... drat. >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:27:15 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:27:15 +0100 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01e101d10d6c$a020fac0$e062f040$@gmail.com> > > > And if you are going to learn an FPGA development language look at > > SystemVerilog/Verilog, OpenCL, or VHDL. Certainly not AHDL. It was bad > > even when it was new. It does not get better with age. > > I'll go back to schematic entry before I touch them. > They FUCK! Please keep profanity off the list. You can continue to use AHDL but just like any lower level language, its proprietary to the Altera tool chain, may need work to move between chip families, and means you will have to do almost all the work yourself. There is very little AHDL code available for download. So you are cutting yourself off from the rest of the world where the formally standardized tools VHDL and Verilog have largely taken over from proprietary languages like AHDL. I was going to say that there is no "parameter passing" in VHDL. You define an entity and then connect it to a higher level entity, but looking in the help this isn't true. I also struggled with this when I was building a "Baby Baby" as I wanted to have different types of output device and have conditional synthesis but this does not appear to be supported. > > > Don > > > Dave Wade G4UGM From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:33:50 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 04:33:50 -0400 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76C97C39-C504-491F-BDE9-FB8F4A24CEED@gmail.com> If the bumper is there it will be on the side wall of the HDA where the head actuator would touch when retracted. If the heads move freely you have a driver failure. the scream is the stepper motor trying to move with only one phase working. (Also a common drive failure.) Joe > On Oct 23, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 10/23/15 1:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: >> There is a plastic bumper in the head/disk assembly that turns to goo. >> When the head retracts it hits the bumper and gets stuck in the goo. The goo will eventually win. The head will no longer load. I can't say For sure this is your disk problem but it was a verry common Maxtor failure. > > I thought that was true for Micropolis drives (like the DEC RD53, a Micropolis 1325/1335) -- or does the Maxtor have a rubber bumper as well? As I said I had one open and the heads were not stuck (I could move them with my finger -- while the drive was spinning of course :)) and I didn't notice any goo-laden parts, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place... > > - Josh > >> >> Joe >> >>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 3:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> I acquired a Symbolics 3640 today and it came equipped with two "large" capacity Maxtor MFM drives (an XT-1140 and an XT-2190). The 1140 spins up fine and we were able to image it using Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator (yay). >>> >>> The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. >>> >>> I'm fairly sure it's not a head crash or anything like that; having gone through this a year or so ago with a similar drive that was scratch anyway, I opened it up and verified that the heads weren't stuck, and I see no evidence of a head crash after disassembly. >>> >>> Further, the fault does not appear to be on the logic board -- we swapped in a board from a working 2190 tonight and afterwards the drive exhibited the same symptoms. >>> >>> I've had this happen to other 2190s and 1140s and a few of the ESDI drives in the same family, some of which were working in my possession for weeks before failing -- has anyone else seen this? Any ideas? I'd kind of like to recover the data off of the 2190 from the 3640... drat. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh > From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:35:43 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 04:35:43 -0400 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <96BC8749-5181-47C5-882B-B4A5C43B7439@gmail.com> Sorry I didn't notice you said voice coil. The stepper comment is moot. Joe > On Oct 23, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 10/23/15 1:19 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: >> There is a plastic bumper in the head/disk assembly that turns to goo. >> When the head retracts it hits the bumper and gets stuck in the goo. The goo will eventually win. The head will no longer load. I can't say For sure this is your disk problem but it was a verry common Maxtor failure. > > I thought that was true for Micropolis drives (like the DEC RD53, a Micropolis 1325/1335) -- or does the Maxtor have a rubber bumper as well? As I said I had one open and the heads were not stuck (I could move them with my finger -- while the drive was spinning of course :)) and I didn't notice any goo-laden parts, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place... > > - Josh > >> >> Joe >> >>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 3:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> I acquired a Symbolics 3640 today and it came equipped with two "large" capacity Maxtor MFM drives (an XT-1140 and an XT-2190). The 1140 spins up fine and we were able to image it using Dave Gesswein's MFM emulator (yay). >>> >>> The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. >>> >>> I'm fairly sure it's not a head crash or anything like that; having gone through this a year or so ago with a similar drive that was scratch anyway, I opened it up and verified that the heads weren't stuck, and I see no evidence of a head crash after disassembly. >>> >>> Further, the fault does not appear to be on the logic board -- we swapped in a board from a working 2190 tonight and afterwards the drive exhibited the same symptoms. >>> >>> I've had this happen to other 2190s and 1140s and a few of the ESDI drives in the same family, some of which were working in my possession for weeks before failing -- has anyone else seen this? Any ideas? I'd kind of like to recover the data off of the 2190 from the 3640... drat. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Oct 23 03:50:47 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:50:47 +0100 Subject: PDP2011 board In-Reply-To: <01e101d10d6c$a020fac0$e062f040$@gmail.com> References: <5629895D.90800@jwsss.com> <5629AD0D.9070204@alum.mit.edu> <5629B73F.1080100@jetnet.ab.ca> <5629BD6E.2090808@alum.mit.edu> <5629C0F7.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> <01e101d10d6c$a020fac0$e062f040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please bear in mind that a number of these boards don't have an ethernet connector. I bought the DE-1 and it's a great board apart from that, but ageing as suggested. However, the board you buy must depend on how close a fit you need to the bitstreams available or how competent you think you are/might be with the tools in reconfiguring for a different target board. M. On 23 October 2015 at 09:27, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > > And if you are going to learn an FPGA development language look at > > > SystemVerilog/Verilog, OpenCL, or VHDL. Certainly not AHDL. It was bad > > > even when it was new. It does not get better with age. > > > > I'll go back to schematic entry before I touch them. > > They FUCK! > > Please keep profanity off the list. > > You can continue to use AHDL but just like any lower level language, its > proprietary to the Altera tool chain, may need work to move between chip > families, and means you will have to do almost all the work yourself. There > is very little AHDL code available for download. So you are cutting > yourself off from the rest of the world where the formally standardized > tools VHDL and Verilog have largely taken over from proprietary languages > like AHDL. > > I was going to say that there is no "parameter passing" in VHDL. You > define an entity and then connect it to a higher level entity, but looking > in the help this isn't true. I also struggled with this when I was building > a "Baby Baby" as I wanted to have different types of output device and have > conditional synthesis but this does not appear to be supported. > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:58:49 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:58:49 +0100 Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay In-Reply-To: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> References: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <029701d10d71$08c0e5a0$1a42b0e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: 23 October 2015 01:57 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay > > Hey guys, > > > > Further to our conversation - I was looking at this beast: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1- > reperforater- > 1-50vdc-supply-etc- > /121791042544?hash=item1c5b4fd3f0:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs > > > > Wasn't sure if it was two units? The first couple of pics look different. There are two units. One is a "reperforator" so it should have a tape reader and punch, but may not have a transmitter so it may only work in parrallel > Anyway, if I understood correctly, it was possible (and possibly done in the > 1970s by hobbyists) to convert one of these baudot teletypes to ASCII and > use with a computer? No, the computer used to convert the ASCII to Baudot in special i/o routines. > This one is out of my reach since the auction is pick up > only. But I kind of like the look of the Model 28 and I understand they're > pretty bulletproof once you have them working. I'm just not sure if this > would work, and if this particular one is ASR or what, because it mentions a > reperforator and from what I read 28s that came with that had a tape reader > also? See above. > > > > Brad > > > Dave G4UGM p.s. some had a 28 free for collection on the Greenkeys list some time ago... > From dave at 661.org Fri Oct 23 04:08:44 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:08:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Seeking Terry Gulczynski Message-ID: Has anyone heard from Terry Gulczynski (http://stack180.com/) since October 12? I've been waiting for him to tell me it's okay to send him a P112 kit for assembly and testing. Now I'm worrying that something may have happened to him. He lives in Daytona Beach, Florida. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Fri Oct 23 04:14:13 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2015, Oscar Vermeulen wrote: > Hi, > >>> Oscar is already working on another very promising product. >>> [..]He will > also pay a visit to my "museum" to take a few measurements. > Sorry, can't say more >>> I'll leave that up to Oscar. Perhaps he > want to stay "below the radar" until that project is finished ... > > Thanks for the kind words on my strange replica mania! We all need to do > silly things at some point in our lives. > > No secret... I'd love to do an "Open Source Hardware" PDP-11/70 replica > (or remake - whatever choice of words is preferred). Electronically, it > would a simple variation on the PiDP-8 (i.e., simh brains on a Raspberry > Pi, hiding behind a front panel PCB). It's just a different emulator > from the simh stable with less LEDs. > > But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper > switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible > to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). > The white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based > on Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or > any technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I > know so far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than > just a few years ago. > > If anyone here *does* have know-how in this field, I'd love any advice. > I got some preliminary quotes and recommendations on making a case > replica using vacuum forming. Which is relatively cheap. Not perfect, > but low cost is very important for such a gadget. I'd love to get my hands on one or two bezels for the 11/70 front panel. Invariably, whenever a front panel shows up for sale, the bezel is missing. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 04:26:52 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 07:26:52 -0200 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... References: Message-ID: <80D57E9A45FF4812BE974012D94FB0D8@deskjara> >> But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper >> switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible >> to produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The >> white bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on >> Museum Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any >> technique to produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so >> far is that it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few >> years ago. Jumping on the metro (since I'm so young) running: Can't it be 3D printed? Or done with vacuum forming? Resin molding? Are you talking the white bezel on this photo? http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/Images/11_35_draw.jpeg It can be done easily: - You can do it in a 3D prusa-something printer, if you divide it in printable blocks, and glue it afterwards. - You can easily do that in Vacuum Forming. Since I never saw a 11/70 in front of me, I don't know the size/hardness requeirements, but I believe it is feasible - You can create a cast mold in some material and use liquid resin (epoxy comes to mind since it doesn't shrink/expand on cure). Probably it would need a two-part positive/negative mold. Easily done if I had the original part on hand - I haven't seen all the details, but I believe it can be 3D-cut into a suitable CNC machine, in wood or plastic. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 04:40:28 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:40:28 +1300 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <80D57E9A45FF4812BE974012D94FB0D8@deskjara> References: <80D57E9A45FF4812BE974012D94FB0D8@deskjara> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper >>> switches, and the white bezel/frame. The switches *seem* to be feasible to >>> produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). The white >>> bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum >>> Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to >>> produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that >>> it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. > > > Jumping on the metro (since I'm so young) running: > > Can't it be 3D printed? Or done with vacuum forming? Resin molding? > > Are you talking the white bezel on this photo? > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/Images/11_35_draw.jpeg > > It can be done easily: > > - You can do it in a 3D prusa-something printer, if you divide it in > printable blocks, and glue it afterwards. > - You can easily do that in Vacuum Forming. Since I never saw a 11/70 in > front of me, I don't know the size/hardness requeirements, but I believe it > is feasible > - You can create a cast mold in some material and use liquid resin (epoxy > comes to mind since it doesn't shrink/expand on cure). Probably it would > need a two-part positive/negative mold. Easily done if I had the original > part on hand > - I haven't seen all the details, but I believe it can be 3D-cut into a > suitable CNC machine, in wood or plastic. Actually, thinking about it, there are two approaches, and they're both valid: 1. Take a lot of trouble, spend a lot of money, and produce as close a replica of the original as possible. 2. Do what he did with the PiDP-8/I; something 'close enough' which is reasonably accurate and evokes the original very nicely, but doesn't even pretend to be a precise replica. I don't think it even *needs* a bezel IF option 2. is selected. Print a different perspex, add a few more switches, paint them purple instead of brown, add a couple of rotary switches... put it in a wooden box again. Job done very simply. But whether it's 1. or 2. I don't see any strong argument for NOT making it full-size. But we can all talk about it; he's the poor bugger who actually has to do the work :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 04:44:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:44:49 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562A0191.2020008@btinternet.com> Well that is sort of right. I was working for digital at the time and therefore I have a slightly different perspective. Internet has its roots in three places the US universities, Research Establishments and the US military. ARPAnet came sometime before Internet. It was a packet switching network. Inter site everything was done on good old copper telephone lines. The software would have been either IBM or DEC network software. Dial out modems for the small systems and leased lines for the big guys. TCP/IP was not the main protocol used to begin with being a child of UNIX and originating in the universities. TCP/IP was adopted for inter networking 1n 1982 Notice I said inter networking. Yes Internet was the connection between networks not the networks themselves. There were many different local area network protocols usually decreed by the makers of the network hardware The colleges did it just to see if it could be done and the military for a very good (at the time) reason. It was the height of the cold war and peace only maintained by the fact that regardless of who started it both sides would be wiped out. The high level of connectivity helped to ensure that the orders of the President and the generals got to the missile sites and bomber bases even if US had been already attacked and lost some of their communications. Timeline: Packet switched networks developed in the 1970's Microprocessors (4004 early 1970's ) 8085 used in VT100 about 1975 First micro processors to support networking late 70's Loads of differing LAN and WAN (packet switching) software (1970-1980) TCP/IP 1982 Remember my view was from the inside and not as good as from outside. Rod Smallwood On 23/10/15 01:54, Murray McCullough wrote: > 43 years ago around this time the Internet we use to communicate with > was probably made possible because of TCP/IP, or Transmission Control > Protocol/Internet Protocol created at Stanford University. Today 3 > billion people are on the net but really made it possible for this > extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same > time ? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. > Our hobby supported through this web site keeps this history alive. > Hurrah! > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) > > PS This week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein?s Theory of > General Relativity though published in 1916 according to Wikipedia. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 23 05:04:58 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:04:58 +0200 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562A064A.7080303@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-23 02:54, Murray McCullough wrote: > 43 years ago around this time the Internet we use to communicate with > was probably made possible because of TCP/IP, or Transmission Control > Protocol/Internet Protocol created at Stanford University. Today 3 > billion people are on the net but really made it possible for this > extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same > time ? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. > Our hobby supported through this web site keeps this history alive. > Hurrah! > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) > > PS This week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein?s Theory of > General Relativity though published in 1916 according to Wikipedia. Just thought I'd point out that the switch to TCP/IP only happened in 1982-1983. So while the "internet" (well, ARPANET actually) existed before then, it was not TCP/IP based. So it is incorrect to say that TCP/IP came about 43 years ago. Nor am I sure if Stanford should get all the credit for it. See RFC 801 to start with... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dave at 661.org Fri Oct 23 05:30:00 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:30:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Seeking Terry Gulczynski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, dave at 661.org wrote: > Has anyone heard from Terry Gulczynski (http://stack180.com/) since October > 12? I've been waiting for him to tell me it's okay to send him a P112 kit > for assembly and testing. Now I'm worrying that something may have happened > to him. He lives in Daytona Beach, Florida. I'm sorry to have raised an alarm about this. Terry is safe and sound. His recent silence was because I turned on an apparently overzealous RBL on my mailserver. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 02:35:40 2015 From: michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com (Mike Barnes) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 03:35:40 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > Well done. Have you looked at 3D printing? Not fast, not especially > cheap, but potentially the least difficult developmentally. And once > it's set up you can just let her rip and churn them out. > > A few comments on 3D printing for projects like this... About a year ago I created a 'blinkenlights' project for an HP Access system running under SimH (for pic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikebikes/22213398140 ). An HP 2000 Access system in real life consists of a CPU and an I/O processor. For this project, I used a 4-core ODROID-C1 running SimH under Linux-- one core dedicated to the main processor, one core for the I/O processor, and one core to manage the lights (and one for Linux to play with). The lights are connected by SPI to Adafruit 24-channel PWM boards daisy chained together. The I/O processor box is empty except for a PWM board and some LEDs. The core running the lights computes the percentage each display bit is '1' for the HP cpu cycles between SPI updates. This becomes a PWM value which is gamma corrected so that the dimming looks correct. I forget the display refresh rate, but with SPI it's in the many hundreds to thousands/sec range. The boxes are printed an a well-tuned and heavily modified Makerbot Replicator 2. Probably each box took 48 hours of printing (that doesn't include equipment problems and design errors!). Because the size of the box exceeds the dimensions of the build plate, each surface needed to be split into (usually) two pieces-- the entire project then screws together using screws and thermoplastic inserts. Not visible in the photo is that there is a black 3D printed part inside where the LEDs mount, creating light tunnels preventing light from escaping to an adjacent LED (and also precisely aligning the LEDs). I was expecting to have to sand and paint the pieces, but while you can see layer lines, it's really not distracting. It turned out well, but only for a 'one-of' project. Doing this on any production scale would not be practical (as others have pointed out). The quality, time to print, and build volume size all cause issues. Since this project I have been moving toward using a combination of my CNC mill and 3D printing. I create positives by 3D modeling (with OnShape or OpenScad) followed by creating a positive using prototyping boards and CNC milling. I cast the positive in silicon and create polyurethane parts. If you haven't seen it yet, an excellent tutorial is the 'Guerrilla guide to CNC machining, mold making, and resin casting' ( http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ ). You get much better quality with molding and can mix your own colors to get exactly what you want. There are some parts that have very complex geometries where 3D printing is still useful (some of my light tunnels, or switch interfaces match this criteria). For some parts (like PDP-8 and PDP-11 switches) you can get a great result with two part molds-- they look a lot better than a 3D printed switch. I do have a vacuum former and have tried using that for creating things like the front trim for a PDP-8. It's much easier and you get a better result with a mold. If you were trying to get the details of the embossed 'digital' part of a PDP-11/70 trim, that would be really hard (for me anyway) to get a good result from vacuum forming, but pretty straightforward with molding. One more note for original equipment holders-- I don't have, and in most cases have never seen, the device I am creating. It is all done with pictures on the web and whatever technical information I can find. So when you are taking pictures to share, try to take at least some pictures absolutely perpendicular to what you are photographing (including a ruler attached to the object would be an extra bonus!)-- you'll make life easier for us modelers! Thanks. From Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Fri Oct 23 03:16:22 2015 From: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de (Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:16:22 +0000 Subject: HI TEK Keyboard plungers? Message-ID: <81E4EB5EC7B8014EA8E52D4FF9290437304E6CD6@dlrexmbx02.intra.dlr.de> Hello, I have been servicing an HP 85A and an HP 85B desktop computer (printer belts, tape drive capstan). While the key caps of the "A" model are plugged into yellow plungers (according to the service manual the manufacturer is "STACKPOLE") the "B" came with white plungers ("Hi TEK" according to the svc. manual). The yellow plungers were all in good condition, while several of the white plungers are split along one or two edges. I understand that this is a common problem with these HiTek keys. The HP 85B suffers from this problem especially on the space bar which gets stuck when depressed. So my question is: is there a way to repair (glue? melt?) these split plungers or are there replacement/alternative plungers available to replace the white HI TEK parts? I would need at least one (ideally more like 5) as the remaining broken plungers are still working. These keys seem to be used also in some VT100, DECWriter and even some Ti-99/4 keyboards. If I cannot find a replacement, I would probably drill a lot of small holes into the plunger, glue it to the key cap, and then rework the outer dimensions so that it slides smoothly into the casing. But then I would probably not be able to remove the key caps later, after snapping it back into the casing - sort of one way fix with some risk. Thank you for any recommendations, Martin -------------------------- Deutsches Zentrum f?r Luft- und Raumfahrt e.V. (DLR) German Aerospace Center Institute of Aerodynamics and Flow Technology | Lilienthalplatz 7 | 38108 Braunschweig | Germany Dr.-Ing. Martin Hepperle | Aircraft Design and Configuration Aerodynamics Telephone +49 531 295-3337 | Telefax +49 531 295-2320 | E-Mail: Martin.Hepperle at dlr.de Internet: www.DLR.de From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 06:20:06 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 07:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: <20151023112006.B3F4818C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > the switch to TCP/IP only happened in 1982-1983. So while the > "internet" (well, ARPANET actually) existed before then, it was not > TCP/IP based. The conversion of the _ARPANET_ from NCP to TCP/IP happened on 1 January, 1983. However, 'the Internet' (in the sense of a grouping of networks over which TCP/IP packets flowed) had been around for some time before that, both as i) a testbed for developing the TCP/IP protocols and software used for that cutover, and ii) for network service to machines which couldn't get an ARPANET port (remember that at that point in time, there were no personal computers, just time-sharing systems). The history of TCP/IP and the Internet up until that point is complicated (I lived through it, so I should remember, but alas the memory dims :-), but the first use for actual service (as opposed to testing software, demos, etc) would have been a year or two before that - exactly when is somewhat lost in in the mists of time. Although the ARPANET pre-dated the Internet, it was used to carry TCP/IP traffic (directly, not inside NCP - the protocol used between hosts on the ARPANET before TCP/IP) long before the cutover; it was _the_ long-haul network in the early Internet, and connected together all the various local TCP/IP 'hot spots' (to use modern jargon). 'All' that happened on January 1, 1983 was that the ability of the ARPANET to carry NCP packets was disabled. Of course, in the months prior to that, all the ARPANET hosts which didn't _already_ have TCP/IP running (many did, to speak to other machines locally which didn't have ARPANET ports) went through a big thrash to get TCP/IP software, and get it installed, tested and running. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 06:49:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 07:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alexandre Souza > Easily done if I had the original part on hand We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast molds (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the front console). The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches (not the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used the now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel is going to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches. (That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it obvious, if anyone wants to know more.) I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made the 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old room.... > From: David C. Jenner > How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one > for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such stashed > away waiting for the right simulator to come along... To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU, which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come over flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard, but I doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out by reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic analyzer. Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell, although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge the power connection... Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 07:39:00 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:39:00 +0100 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. I have a few that I used on recent project. What I found hard was obtaining centre off switches as it appear from this picture:- http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46651-hi-PDP-11-45-fo und-at-Attic-What-is-this that PDP-11 Switches may be flipped up or down, or is that not true? I believe they were made by C&K who are still in business. I wonder if it is worth approaching them. The double pole version appears to be still "stocked", I see Farnell has some in the UK http://cpc.farnell.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/SW0 4163 http://www.newark.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/99K0 440?ost=7203J50&categoryId=&categoryName= but they are a tad expensive in the US.... .. still working out how to build a front panel for his SBC6120 as FPC6120 kits are even more un-obtainium than the switches.... Dave Wade G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 23 October 2015 12:49 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... > > > From: Alexandre Souza > > > Easily done if I had the original part on hand > > We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast > molds (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the > front console). > > The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches (not > the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used the > now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold > the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel is going > to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard > micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic > toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches. > > (That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it obvious, if > anyone wants to know more.) > > I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some > switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made > the 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old > room.... > > > > From: David C. Jenner > > > How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one > > for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such stashed > > away waiting for the right simulator to come along... > > To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU, > which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come over > flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard, but I > doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out by > reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic analyzer. > > Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell, > although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge > the power connection... > > Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 08:19:10 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:19:10 -0500 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01d10d95$68492f90$38db8eb0$@classiccmp.org> Dave wrote... ------ I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. ------ But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the "model number" on them goes. They can be found pretty easy. The problem is that CK switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate at the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part number on them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal reinforcement strip. So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate. As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made. J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 08:28:11 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:28:11 +0100 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <001f01d10d95$68492f90$38db8eb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> <001f01d10d95$68492f90$38db8eb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <03a501d10d96$a9ef68f0$fdce3ad0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 23 October 2015 14:19 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... > > Dave wrote... > ------ > I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. > ------ > But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the "model > number" on them goes. They can be found pretty easy. The problem is that > CK switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate > at the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part > number on them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal > reinforcement strip. The ones currently on E-Bay looks very like the ones I bought and which are available from Farnell/Element 14 with a plate and clip so they slot into a back plate. Are you sure it's a custom plate? > > So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK > switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate. > > As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made. > > J > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 09:26:20 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:26:20 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <001f01d10d95$68492f90$38db8eb0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> <001f01d10d95$68492f90$38db8eb0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote... > ------ > I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. Any of these C&K-type switches are likely to sell for $4-$6 each as new (I've gotten fistfuls of similar ones at Hamfests for $0.75 or less, but it's very hit-miss; not the sort of thing you could base a product off of). > But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the "model > number" on them goes. Yes. The bodies are very standard, but the momentaries can be more difficult to find, even if they have SPDT on-on bodies. The 4-digit number on the side will tell much. AFAIK, there are 2 types used in a real DEC front panel, with some of the momentaries mounted facing one way, some facing the other way. >The problem is that CK > switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate at > the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part number on > them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal reinforcement > strip. I don't think it's a DEC-custom clip design, but it is not C&K's most popular mounting scheme. > So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK > switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate. Essentially, yes. 7301s are easy enough to find (at the aforementioned $5-$6 each), but not with the panel clips. > As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made. A new mechanical design would allow for the use of a wider range of switches that would be more available. For paddle-type switches (with the small stub for mating with a DEC toggle handle), what I've seen as more common have larger metal "frame" that is also bonded into the switch stack like the panel clips DEC used. The frame has solder lugs that mount on the PCB next to the signal leads, giving a bigger footprint on the PCB. I have a few handfuls of those, with paddles, that I picked up at Dayton and other places. It's the style that Bob Armstrong used with the original FP6120 (for the SBC6120RC he later changed to simple toggle switches with round panel holes and knurled nuts because those are far more common). These "framed" switches won't easily mount in a real DEC front panel, so they don't help the person who is trying to restore a real front panel, but they would be a good choice for a from-scratch replica. You still end up with over $100 in switch bodies, but that's just the way these are. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 09:37:29 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:37:29 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast molds > (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the front > console). Casting is one option. Another is CNC out of dense PVC foam. > The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches (not > the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used > the now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold > the switch in place in a metal holder plate. It's probably possible to find small quantities of the right switch, but not 2 dozen per panel. > So a recreation front panel is > going to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard > micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic > toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches. The pivot and attachment method is "standard" for C&K paddle switches. You can still get switches with that arrangement, but with a different mounting method. > I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some > switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made the > 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old > room.... Good question... is it 1,000? 5,000? > To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU, > which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come > over flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard, > but I doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out > by reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic > analyzer. It's been done at least twice 6809-based interface (I happen to have 2 of these, so I'm good here) http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html Blinkenbone. http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone (more than just 11/70) > Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell, > although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge > the power connection... That's a "standard" shell as used in several DEC power supplies and for 20mA TTY connections. They get brought up on the list from time to time. I happen to have a basket of them, but they are somewhat rare on the open market. -ethan From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 23 05:54:39 2015 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:54:39 +0200 Subject: Making a PDP-11 bezel Message-ID: >> http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh That's a work of art, together with the PDP-10 he did. I saw them running on a nice touch screen at VCF Berlin, and I wondered whether all this physical replication stuff makes sense when that's around at zero cost. Then I put my blinkers back on and went ahead anyway :) >> You hit upon one of the key needs for these projects, a good replica bezel. >> In my project I had to have a plexiglass bezel laser cut then used white plastic >> to frame that bezel. It works but I would love to have a replica bezel. Did you perchance make a CAD design for that, which could be reused? ;) I'm drafting a design at the moment, but far from perfect still. I think of all the technologies available for making the bezel, vacuum forming seems to make the most sense. Injection molding is much better quality but just too expensive (tens of thousands USD). The other approaches, I think, work fine for small quantities. But I suspect there's a 'need' to make a few hundred. Probably the best way is to make a very good open-source CAD model. Then make a low-cost vacuum forming mold, whilst anyone could still use the CAD file for higher-quality one-offs on a CNC router or, perhaps, 3D printer. The problem with vacuum forming is that you cannot make much more details other than the outer hull, which will look fine but need a lot of work on the inside to really mount in an original PDP-11. Regards, Oscar. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 09:57:23 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Previous message: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151023145723.097EE18C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Wade > What I found hard was obtaining centre off switches as it appear from > this picture ... that PDP-11 Switches may be flipped up or down, or is > that not true? No, they are all 'standard' (except for the mounting) SPST switches; most (e.g. the address/data bits) are normal two-position, although some (LOAD ADDR, DEPOSIT, EXAM, START and CONTINUE, IIRC) are momentary-contact. The 'toggle' (the plastic part that fits over the switch) has an off-center shaft that goes around the switch's metal actuating shaft, so that the toggle can be level when the switch is in the 'un-set' position. Some of the switches are installed 'the other way around', and they depress instead of lift (typically the address-data switches lift, and the function ones depress, although there are exceptions - e.g. DEPOSIT is a lift). > I believe they were made by C&K who are still in business. I wonder if > it is worth approaching them. If they're not actually still availble - see below. > The double pole version appears to be still "stocked", I see Farnell > has some in the UK That is _almost_ the exact switch (I just about had a heart attack when I saw them, and started to order some until I realized they weren't quite it); it has the right mounting mechanicals (note the two triangular side plates with the holes through the tips - the toggle have pins which go into the holes, and the toggle pivots on them). Alas, it's DPDT, not SPST. And it's momentary contact (although each PDP-11 panel does contain some momentary-contact switches). But if C+K is still making _these_, they should have no problems making the SPST version - if, in fact, they are not still in production. I tried looking through the catalog at that site, to see if I could find the SPST version, but no luck. (Although maybe I'm just a klutz about that site - it wasn't easy for me to use.) Maybe your parts-search-fu is better than mine? Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 09:58:53 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:58:53 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction. Message-ID: <562A4B2D.8040007@btinternet.com> Hi Guys We seem to have a bit of a rush on to do reproductions of mainly digital front panels, bezels and switches. Before we all run round and go through the same learning curve perhaps we can pool our knowledge and and allocate getting different parts sourced/made to different people. I am now up to speed on the perspex panels for all models they were actually used on, from pdp8 up to 11/70. I also have a proven production system. No fancy machines just perspex (plexiglas) blanks and silk screen process as per the the originals. So who wants to do 1. Bezels 2. Lever keys (pdp8 type and PDP11 type ) 3. Key/lamp pcbs (connect as replacements to original systems or to microprocessors) 4. Micro processor and custom software to drive the above. ( Suggest Rainbow Pi as Its low cost and is known to run the right simulations) I can quite understand somebody wanting to do the whole process themselves. However not everybody who would like a nice full size 8 or 11 functional front panel has the time, knowledge or access to the right resources to do it. I shall now go and hide behind my six foot / nineteen inch main rack in case of heavy flack Rod Smallwood From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 10:11:19 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:11:19 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A4B2D.8040007@btinternet.com> References: <562A4B2D.8040007@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <000001d10da5$12574850$3705d8f0$@classiccmp.org> Rod; It's not just the dec folks. I have a DG box that I'd REALLY like to get a new (plexiglass, but thinner and more flexible) panel done for. I'd imagine it's silkscreening.... And I know of at least one other DG person looking for the same... J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:14:24 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:14:24 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <80D57E9A45FF4812BE974012D94FB0D8@deskjara> References: <80D57E9A45FF4812BE974012D94FB0D8@deskjara> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper >>> switches, and the white bezel/frame. >>> The switches *seem* to be feasible to >>> produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). I had a sample PDP-8/L and a sample PDP-11/70 switch toggle printed from Vince Slyngstad's models on a Form1+ SLA printer. They are very nice. I am not certain that the pivots won't break off - the resin is quite brittle, but Form Labs does now make a "tough resin" that's more resilient, at a 50% premium ($180 per liter?) The printer is just shy of $4,000. The cost per switch toggle is around $1 in resin, but operator time makes it much more expensive. I'm trying to work out a deal with other members of my hackerspace who own the printer... if I do the part washing and the support clipping, it might be possible to get switch toggles for a few dollars each. An alternative is I think they can be bought from Shapeways for around $5-$6 each (SLS format). >>> The white >>> bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum >>> Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to >>> produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that >>> it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. Yes. All cheaper than it was a few years ago. > Can't it be 3D printed? Or done with vacuum forming? Resin molding? Could be 3D printed, but not in one pass on any normal printer - it's 19" wide and 10" tall. Vacuforming is also a possiblity, but the logo wouldn't be as "crisp". We have a 2'x3' (600mm x 900mm) vacuformer at our hackerspace, but it does very thin styrene sheets for custom 1-off signs (the plastic comes on rolls and you form it over hard letters and logos to make a "3D" sign - very 1970s tech). We do not have a vacuformer strong enough for, say, Storm Trooper armor. Such a vacuformer could probably handle a bezel. > Are you talking the white bezel on this photo? > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/Images/11_35_draw.jpeg Yes. > It can be done easily: > > - You can do it in a 3D prusa-something printer, if you divide it in > printable blocks, and glue it afterwards. Yes. > - You can easily do that in Vacuum Forming. Since I never saw a 11/70 in > front of me, I don't know the size/hardness requeirements, but I believe it > is feasible It's a solid metal casting, not for strength so much as, I think, durability (from when chairs and other things whack into the machine), and manufacturability with techniques of the day. > - You can create a cast mold in some material and use liquid resin (epoxy > comes to mind since it doesn't shrink/expand on cure). Probably it would > need a two-part positive/negative mold. Easily done if I had the original > part on hand It could be fairly easily cast, I would think. > - I haven't seen all the details, but I believe it can be 3D-cut into a > suitable CNC machine, in wood or plastic. Having worked with it before, I'd recommend trying to CNC it out of a dense PVC foam. It's plenty rigid and sturdy, but carves nicely, and is not particularly expensive. It might take 2 passes - one for the outline, and one for the "digital" logo with a smaller bit. You'd need a CNC with at least a 500mm x 300mm bed, but a little larger would be an easier fit. I do have this frame to measure for CAD parameters. As it happens, I have a PDP-11/70 front panel PCB minus the switches, a couple of bezels of my own, and a complete, borrowed, PDP-11/70 front panel that I was already taking measurements from for a repro plexi. I also happen to have infrequent access to a Faro Arm ($80,000 3D scanner - http://www.faro.com/products/metrology/faroarm-measuring-arm/overview) and I'll see if I can get a scan of the bezel at my next opportunity. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 10:17:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151023151732.F1CD018C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Alas, it's DPDT, not SPST. Ooops; the ones in the PDP-11 front panels (/05, /45, /70 and almost certainly the /40 too) are SPDT, not SPST (typing too fast, in my excitement that these have finally been found :-). I looked at the data sheet for the ones you found, and it's actually a sheet for the whole series, from which it looks virtually certain that the right ones (both pemanent and momentary contact) can be ordered from C+K. It's just a matter of working out what the part number would be! Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 23 10:22:36 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:22:36 +0200 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023112006.B3F4818C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023112006.B3F4818C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562A50BC.2060505@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-23 13:20, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > the switch to TCP/IP only happened in 1982-1983. So while the > > "internet" (well, ARPANET actually) existed before then, it was not > > TCP/IP based. > > The conversion of the _ARPANET_ from NCP to TCP/IP happened on 1 January, > 1983. However, 'the Internet' (in the sense of a grouping of networks over > which TCP/IP packets flowed) had been around for some time before that, both > as i) a testbed for developing the TCP/IP protocols and software used for > that cutover, and ii) for network service to machines which couldn't get an > ARPANET port (remember that at that point in time, there were no personal > computers, just time-sharing systems). > > The history of TCP/IP and the Internet up until that point is complicated (I > lived through it, so I should remember, but alas the memory dims :-), but the > first use for actual service (as opposed to testing software, demos, etc) > would have been a year or two before that - exactly when is somewhat lost in > in the mists of time. > > Although the ARPANET pre-dated the Internet, it was used to carry TCP/IP > traffic (directly, not inside NCP - the protocol used between hosts on the > ARPANET before TCP/IP) long before the cutover; it was _the_ long-haul > network in the early Internet, and connected together all the various local > TCP/IP 'hot spots' (to use modern jargon). > > 'All' that happened on January 1, 1983 was that the ability of the ARPANET to > carry NCP packets was disabled. Of course, in the months prior to that, all > the ARPANET hosts which didn't _already_ have TCP/IP running (many did, to > speak to other machines locally which didn't have ARPANET ports) went through > a big thrash to get TCP/IP software, and get it installed, tested and running. Noel not going to try and contradict what you wrote. I merely pointed out that the claim that TCP/IP being the foundation of internet, came into existence 43 years ago is incorrect. I suspect it's because people now assume that "Internet" was always TCP/IP, and thus, if the internet is 43 years old, then TCP/IP would be 43 years, is incorrect. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:22:41 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:22:41 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151023151732.F1CD018C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023151732.F1CD018C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Alas, it's DPDT, not SPST. > > Ooops; the ones in the PDP-11 front panels (/05, /45, /70 and almost > certainly the /40 too) are SPDT, not SPST Yes. The footprint for the existing front panel PCBs are SPDT. > I looked at the data sheet for the ones you found, and it's actually a sheet > for the whole series, from which it looks virtually certain that the right > ones (both pemanent and momentary contact) can be ordered from C+K. It's just > a matter of working out what the part number would be! Part number and availability. From a quick look around, I see low availability numbers (one part was "3 remaining" and a notice that they would not be restocking that part). In the larger scheme, I think it's fine to find these switches for restoring real machines, but I think we are better off finding alternate sources for a new design. The benefit of the "real" panel mount switches is that if we make a replica PCB with PCB-mount, the panel mount switches will still work, given the DEC mounting frame (and that's another kettle of fish - I have one, and I think it's stainless steel because it's quite "lacy" with 12mm square holes and 1mm of metal between them. That would be exciting to reproduce in a home shop). -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Oct 23 10:27:29 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:27:29 +0200 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> References: <20151023114918.18B3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <051b01d10d8f$cb7d0e70$62772b50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562A51E1.70602@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-23 14:39, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. I have > a few that I used on recent project. > What I found hard was obtaining centre off switches as it appear from this > picture:- > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46651-hi-PDP-11-45-fo > und-at-Attic-What-is-this > > that PDP-11 Switches may be flipped up or down, or is that not true? Not sure what you mean by that. The switches only have two positions, though. They are either in the down position, or in the up position. Some were spring-loaded and returned to the original position when you let go of them. However, if you were to consider all the switches in one line as being a neutral line, most switches moved up from that position, while a few moved down. Think of them as being mounted upside down, perhaps? Johnny > > I believe they were made by C&K who are still in business. I wonder if it is > worth approaching them. > > The double pole version appears to be still "stocked", I see Farnell has > some in the UK > > http://cpc.farnell.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/SW0 > 4163 > > http://www.newark.com/c-k-components/7203j50-zqe/switch-body-ctr-off/dp/99K0 > 440?ost=7203J50&categoryId=&categoryName= > > but they are a tad expensive in the US.... > > .. still working out how to build a front panel for his SBC6120 as FPC6120 > kits are even more un-obtainium than the switches.... > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel >> Chiappa >> Sent: 23 October 2015 12:49 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... >> >> > From: Alexandre Souza >> >> > Easily done if I had the original part on hand >> >> We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast >> molds (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of > the >> front console). >> >> The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches > (not >> the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 > used the >> now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold >> the switch in place in a metal holder plate. So a recreation front panel > is going >> to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard >> micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the > plastic >> toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches. >> >> (That's all a bit difficult to describe in words; a picture will make it > obvious, if >> anyone wants to know more.) >> >> I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some >> switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made >> the 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an > old >> room.... >> >> >> > From: David C. Jenner >> >> > How about making a version for a REAL PDP-11/70 front panel, and one >> > for a REAL PDP-11/45 front panel, for those of us who have such > stashed >> > away waiting for the right simulator to come along... >> >> To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU, >> which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all > come over >> flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard, but > I >> doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out by >> reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic > analyzer. >> >> Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell, >> although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge >> the power connection... >> >> Noel > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 10:36:06 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:36:06 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <000001d10da5$12574850$3705d8f0$@classiccmp.org> References: <562A4B2D.8040007@btinternet.com> <000001d10da5$12574850$3705d8f0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <562A53E6.7080106@btinternet.com> Hello Jay OK as a start please send the following: 1 A photo taken looking square on in the middle of the panel. 2. In the unlikely event that the panel can be simply removed then a scan is better (no spherical distortion) (If your scanner is too small take two half scans and bolt them together) 3. Measurements where possible. Just a quick comment. In addition to getting panels made I'm also recreating the original masters from which they would have been produced. Silk screening is world wide. Have a look at your tee shirt collection. I'm no artist but technical drawing I really enjoy. So all requests for reproductions of flat perspex panels this way please. Rod Smallwood On 23/10/15 16:11, Jay West wrote: > Rod; > > It's not just the dec folks. I have a DG box that I'd REALLY like to get a new (plexiglass, but thinner and more flexible) panel done for. I'd imagine it's silkscreening.... > > And I know of at least one other DG person looking for the same... > > J > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 10:52:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151023155237.521F918C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > It's just a matter of working out what the part number would be! OK, I've cracked the part number code. The things we are looking for are: 7101J50 CxE 7108J50 CxE where x is a letter selecting the contact material (about 10 options, including gold, silver, gold-over-silver, etc). The 7101's are the normal permanent contact, the 7108's are the momentary contact used in a few positions. The ones Dave found are ZQE's, the 'Z' meaning they are solder lugs, not PCB through-hole lugs, and the 'Q' meaning silver contacts. A Google search didn't find any 7101J50 C's, only Z's. But the C+K Web site showed two places (Electro-Sonic and Online-Components) stocking 7101J50 CQE2's (the trailing '2' means 'black actuator' - their name for what I've been calling the toggle, the plastic part the finger touches); investigating further now. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 23 11:08:33 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:08:33 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/15 12:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds > like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. > Sounds like a failure of the positioner servo. It is on a separate platter. It should be possible to build something to open the servo loop and position the heads externally. One of those projects that I would like to get to some day. I have about 50 Maxtor ESDI drives from Apollo's build system that I REALLY want to get the data off of and I suspect there will be the same sort of problem with them. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 23 11:10:44 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:10:44 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <76C97C39-C504-491F-BDE9-FB8F4A24CEED@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> <76C97C39-C504-491F-BDE9-FB8F4A24CEED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562A5C04.6050703@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/15 1:33 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > the scream is the stepper motor trying to move with only one phase working. (Also a common drive failure.) > Maxtor drives have a very distinctive (and loud) recal sound. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 23 11:18:52 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:18:52 -0500 Subject: Previous message: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151023145723.097EE18C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023145723.097EE18C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562A5DEC.4090704@pico-systems.com> On 10/23/2015 09:57 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > I tried looking through the catalog at that site, to see if I could find the > SPST version, but no luck. (Although maybe I'm just a klutz about that site - > it wasn't easy for me to use.) Maybe your parts-search-fu is better than mine? > > You might try digging on Digi-Key, they have a very good search engine, and you may be able to select qualifiers that lead you right to the part you are looking for. Jon From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Fri Oct 23 11:32:14 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:32:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Model 28 Teletype on ebay In-Reply-To: <00fc01d10d2d$bf4b2f40$3de18dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2015, Brad wrote: > Wasn't sure if it was two units? The first couple of pics look different. > Anyway, if I understood correctly, it was possible (and possibly done in the > 1970s by hobbyists) to convert one of these baudot teletypes to ASCII and I have two model 28s: an RO and an ASR. The 28 and and earlier machines are, of course, baudot machines which used five level tape instead of the wider eight level tapes used in the 33 and later machines. They are both floor consoles and completely self contained in one unit - this is in contrast to the model 19 for instance that had, as far as I recall, a few separate modules that sat on an accessory table. The model 28 ASR in my possession is one immense and very heavy console unit containing the printer, the keyboard, tape reader/writer, power supplies etc. It is absolutely lovely and absolutely not the machine I want to use to talk to a pdp8 or what have you. If you want a bullet proof teletype console that weighs as much as you do, go find a model 37. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 11:31:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:31:01 +0000 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com>,<562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > > The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally seen three or four > > other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up fine, but when it goes to load the heads, > > it sounds like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a high-pitched, > > quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the drive down. The drive is unresponsive > > during this time. > I have (somewhere) a couple of XT1140s that do this. I had assumed it was a fault on the PCB and thus not too hard to fix but I guess not. > > Sounds like a failure of the positioner servo. It is on a separate platter. I wonder if there is a separate velocity feedback coil (not unuheard-of, but not that common on smaller dries)? If so, a problem with that would cause the servo to go unstable. Normally a total loss of servo information causes the heads to hit one or other of the end stops, but there are many other posibilities. > It should be possible to build something to open the servo loop and position the heads > externally. One of those projects that I would like to get to some day. I have about 50 Remember that in the end all you can control is the current through the 'motor' coil (not strictly a voice coil in this drive, but the same idea), and that applies a force (==acceleration) to the heads. Normally this is a closed loop system, signals picked up by the servo heads tell the control electronics of the heads are off-track (and basically how far) this is used to generate a correction signal to feed to the coil. If you open the servo loop, you will be able to accelerate the heads but little more. You will not AFAIK be able to keep them on track. Of course the other issue is that if the servo head/platter/preamp is malfunctioning, will the data heads be any better? You may not be able to read anything much even if you are on-track. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 23 11:37:40 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: > 43 years ago around this time the Internet we use to communicate with > was probably made possible because of TCP/IP, or Transmission Control > Protocol/Internet Protocol created at Stanford University. TCP/IP would be 33, not 43 years ago. The internet was certainly not "made possible" by TCP/IP. It was inevitable that eventually there would be movementS towards standardization of protocols on the arpanet. They could have done much worse than TCP/IP! The internet is the result of the confluence of numerous technological systems, and NO single one of them can be considered to be the origin, nor even "making possible". But, we each see a different piece of the elephant. There are even some who maintain that World-Wide-Web was what "made possible" the internet! Facebook was NOT an element of significance in development of the internet, contrary to cockamamy idiot college administrators who talk about "Web 2.0" (an O'Eilly invention that they should be ashamed of) In 1969, while working at GSFC (NASA), I asked how the networking worked that enabled me to connect my selectric based terminal to numerous 360s, as well as some off-site time-sharing systems. The guy I asked didn't feel like wasting his time explaining it to me, so he just told me that it was above my clearance level. (I was also not allowed to handle decks of cards with certain colors of edge stripe) I saw a different piece of the elephant than you did. The military, educational institutions doing military research, and military contractors were the largest elements in development of the early internet. (aka "Military Industrial Complex" http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html ) But, there were also a few non-military researchers, and other guvmint contributors - for example, there was a series of studies trying to work out how the IRS could resume collecting taxes immediately after nuclear annhilation. (finally made public by NYT in 1989 http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/28/business/nuclear-war-plan-by-irs.html ) > Today 3 billion people are on the net Is that all? I've always thought of writing an SF story involving extensive extra-terrestial presence on the net. Do we really know who is on the web? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Internet_dog.jpg > but really made it possible for > this extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same > time ??? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? > Our hobby supported through this web site waitaminit! "THIS WEB SITE"??!? > keeps this history alive. > Hurrah! And the conflicts between our memories and priorities keeps this a "history", not confirmed "facts". > PS This week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein???s Theory of > General Relativity though published in 1916 according to Wikipedia. It is generally believed that Einstein did not use any digital (not even Digital) computers in developing it, and the original publication did not include any mention on the web for many more years! He never had his own website, nor even a Facebook account! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 11:59:11 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Retro Reproduction. Message-ID: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > perhaps we can pool our knowledge and and allocate getting different > parts sourced/made to different people. Makes sense to me. > 2. Lever keys (pdp8 type and PDP11 type ) For the PDP-11, there are three kinds of plastic toggle/actuator: one like the ones used on the mid-age PDP-8's, used on the 11/20; one sui generis one used on the 11/05; one for the 11/40/45/70. The latter two use the toggle switch (the one we've just been discussing); the 11/20 one uses a slide switch. ISTR that there's a CAD drawing for the first kind, and maybe the third too. > I shall now go and hide behind my six foot / nineteen inch main rack in > case of heavy flack No, makes sense (to me, at least). Noel PS: I can see where this is going: first we're already making parts like front panels; we're about to start making/selling new cards (I'm thinking MEM-11, etc, here); soon someone will start reproducing some of the older boards that are now rare, and command high prices (my suggestion for the first - the M792 diode ROM board); and then it will be cabinets like the H960 (ditto); and then finally, somewhere down the line, you'll be able to buy a complete, brand-spanking-new PDP-8 or PDP-11. Just like the vintage steam engine scene in the UK; first they started making new parts to repair the old ones, and now there are several groups building entire new engines entirely out of new parts. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 12:06:35 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: <20151023170635.81CF418C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > not going to try and contradict what you wrote. Right, I wasn't meaning to imply what you said was incorrect, just giving a little more detail on what was a murky and complicated process. > I suspect it's because people now assume that "Internet" was always > TCP/IP Define "the Internet"! :-) If one describes it as 'the large collection of interoperating networks speaking TCP/IP', then that statement _is_ correct! If one instead uses a broader definition, something like 'computer networks in general' (pulling in things like Usenet), then, no, it's not correct. I'm _not_ trying to say that there is only one, correct, definition of 'the Internet' - but various statements about 'the Internet' may or may not be accurate, depending on which definition is used. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 23 12:08:27 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:08:27 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > ... >> Today 3 billion people are on the net > > Is that all? I've always thought of writing an SF story involving extensive extra-terrestial presence on the net. Neat idea. Go for it! >> but really made it possible for this extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same time ? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. > > How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? That's mixing up apples and crates. A 4004 is a chip, and a very significant one. A Micral is a box with chips in it, similar to Altair or Imsai but not as well known. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 12:16:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:16:50 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562A5C04.6050703@bitsavers.org> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <4A223B0A-D994-4C41-B246-DF2995ED1557@gmail.com> <5629EF41.7010502@gmail.com> <76C97C39-C504-491F-BDE9-FB8F4A24CEED@gmail.com> <562A5C04.6050703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <562A6B82.2050107@sydex.com> On 10/23/2015 09:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Maxtor drives have a very distinctive (and loud) recal sound. And some Maxtor drives are Miniscribes. I have one (I think it's an ESDI, IIRC) that has a beautiful Miniscribe HDA casting, with a Maxtor label wrapped around it. Ah, the good old days of brick-filled boxes... --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 12:22:27 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... Message-ID: <20151023172227.DA3E518C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > OK, I've cracked the part number code. The things we are looking for are: > 7101J50 CxE > 7108J50 CxE > ... > the C+K Web site showed two places (Electro-Sonic and > Online-Components) stocking 7101J50 CQE2's .. investigating further now. OK, so I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online (that was their minium order, sigh). _Iff_ they fit into the old front panels, I'll let the list know. Nobody had the 7108J50C's (the momentary contact ones), but if the 7101J50C's are the Right Thing, I'm prepared to order a batch of the 7108's from C+K; the minium order looks like 40 or so (that's how many the distributors who had the 7101J50-CQE2's had ordered), which I can do off the cuff (and resell at cost to anyone who needs one); if the minimum is larger, we'll have to reconsider how to proceed. The ones from Online are like $5 each, which sounds a lot for a switch, but if you're got a PDP-11 with a non-operable front pable because a switch is busted, it's downright cheap! Also, that will of course include the distributor's markup - if we bought a batch directly from C+K, we might be able to get that down quite a bit. Anyway, let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 12:26:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:26:38 -0700 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> On 10/23/2015 09:37 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > TCP/IP would be 33, not 43 years ago. The internet was certainly not > "made possible" by TCP/IP. It was inevitable that eventually there > would be movementS towards standardization of protocols on the > arpanet. They could have done much worse than TCP/IP! Yeah, I had quite a number of problems with the original post also. Early internet systems--I'm not sure where to draw the line between Usenet, ARPANet and Internet exactly often employed nothing more than POTS networking, using nothing more than UUCP or similar methods. When I added email Internet communication, I used a package for Windows called UUPC, which was pretty much a UUCP clone. Others simply signed up to a service, such as Compuserve. The Internet is not the World-Wide-Web. Indeed, I have a PC package and book titled "Internet Starter Kit" and there's no mention of a web browser. I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. People were more polite back then--at least in their written communication. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 23 12:29:59 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:29:59 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: never heard of it - Ed# In a message dated 10/23/2015 10:08:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, paulkoning at comcast.net writes: How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:31:33 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:31:33 -0400 Subject: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans... In-Reply-To: <20151023172227.DA3E518C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023172227.DA3E518C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > OK, I've cracked the part number code. The things we are looking for are: > > 7101J50 CxE > > 7108J50 CxE > > ... > > the C+K Web site showed two places (Electro-Sonic and > > Online-Components) stocking 7101J50 CQE2's .. investigating further now. > > OK, so I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online (that was their minium > order, sigh). _Iff_ they fit into the old front panels, I'll let the list > know. Cool. I have a DEC PCB that needs all switches (and I have the DEC mounting frame with the square holes), and I've borrowed a full 11/70 front panel that needs 1-2 switches, and I'm sure the owner would like an inexpensive replacement. > Nobody had the 7108J50C's (the momentary contact ones) Unsurprising. Those are far less common. > but if the 7101J50C's are the Right Thing, I'm prepared to order a batch of the 7108's from C+K; > the minium order looks like 40 or so (and resell at cost to anyone who needs one); I may be very much interested in this. > The ones from Online are like $5 each, which sounds a lot for a switch If you've ever had to order switches, it's not a lot. It's about average for the type. > Anyway, let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. Perfect. -ethan From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 12:33:11 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:33:11 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> Hi Noel Your ps comments are very perceptive. I have no doubt that people out there are gathering TTL even as we speak. The one I always call to mind is the guys who built themselves flight simulators out of genuine parts. I've seen replica cars of all kinds. Boats yes Steam Engines are good but one group built a brand new railway engine from 1930's drawings. I think its got to the stage where if we can cooperate the result will be more than the sum of the parts. There is already a spirit of mutual assistance amongst the list members. Working towards a common goal transcends any other personal aversions people may have. As you know I'm collecting front panel designs and recreating the original artwork. Apart from a few mechanical details in print sets I have not seen any detail panel drawings anywhere. Photos yes also line drawings in handbooks. All too small to be of much use. Oh well I'm getting there but it can be slow. (interesting all the same) Regards Rod On 23/10/15 17:59, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > perhaps we can pool our knowledge and and allocate getting different > > parts sourced/made to different people. > > Makes sense to me. > > > 2. Lever keys (pdp8 type and PDP11 type ) > > For the PDP-11, there are three kinds of plastic toggle/actuator: one like the > ones used on the mid-age PDP-8's, used on the 11/20; one sui generis one used > on the 11/05; one for the 11/40/45/70. The latter two use the toggle switch > (the one we've just been discussing); the 11/20 one uses a slide switch. > > ISTR that there's a CAD drawing for the first kind, and maybe the third too. > > > I shall now go and hide behind my six foot / nineteen inch main rack in > > case of heavy flack > > No, makes sense (to me, at least). > > Noel > > PS: I can see where this is going: first we're already making parts like front > panels; we're about to start making/selling new cards (I'm thinking MEM-11, > etc, here); soon someone will start reproducing some of the older boards that > are now rare, and command high prices (my suggestion for the first - the M792 > diode ROM board); and then it will be cabinets like the H960 (ditto); and then > finally, somewhere down the line, you'll be able to buy a complete, > brand-spanking-new PDP-8 or PDP-11. Just like the vintage steam engine scene > in the UK; first they started making new parts to repair the old ones, and now > there are several groups building entire new engines entirely out of new > parts. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 12:43:40 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:43:40 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562A71CC.2060702@btinternet.com> Nope never heard of it either Rod On 23/10/15 18:29, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > never heard of it - Ed# > > > In a message dated 10/23/2015 10:08:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > paulkoning at comcast.net writes: > > How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 12:43:53 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: <20151023174353.42CAF18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > It was inevitable that eventually there would be movementS towards > standardization of protocols on the arpanet. Actually, TCP/IP grew out of the desire to interconnect two very different kinds of network - the ARPANET, and something called the Packet Radio Network (and also a thing called SatNet). The technical details of each were such that it just wouldn't be feasible to extend the ARPANET protocols to work on them too, they were fundamentally different (I'm not talking about low level things like packet size, but higher-level concepts, like reliability, etc); something new was required - and TCP/IP looks _very_ little like the ARPANET's NCP. > From: Chuck Guzis > I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. People were more > polite back then--at least in their written communication. I snorted and started coughing when I read that! :-) Usenet had massive flame wars long before the Web existed! Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 23 12:44:36 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:44:36 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: but! now that we have heard of it SMECC museum wants one! Ed# In a message dated 10/23/2015 10:43:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: Nope never heard of it either Rod On 23/10/15 18:29, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > never heard of it - Ed# > > > In a message dated 10/23/2015 10:08:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > paulkoning at comcast.net writes: > > How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:51:48 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:51:48 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023174353.42CAF18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023174353.42CAF18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. People were more > > polite back then--at least in their written communication. > > I snorted and started coughing when I read that! :-) Usenet had massive flame > wars long before the Web existed! I joined Usenet right before the Great Renaming and ran a node for years (up to about 1995). There were epic flamewars. That part of our history I don't miss. -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:52:39 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:52:39 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <562A71CC.2060702@btinternet.com> References: <562A71CC.2060702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <05c301d10dbb$9c681f90$d5385eb0$@gmail.com> Neither had I, but that doesn't mean it wasn't significant. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=352 suggests "Supposedly it was the first personal computer programmed by Philippe Kahn, founder of Borland." And this is supported by a couple of reports, e.g. http://www.pcworld.com/article/112719/article.html Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of rod > Sent: 23 October 2015 18:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: The Internet & our hobby > > Nope never heard of it either > > Rod > > > On 23/10/15 18:29, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > never heard of it - Ed# > > > > > > In a message dated 10/23/2015 10:08:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > > paulkoning at comcast.net writes: > > > > How many people consider the Micral to be of that level of significance? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 12:57:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:57:21 -0700 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023174353.42CAF18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023174353.42CAF18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562A7501.3000307@sydex.com> On 10/23/2015 10:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I snorted and started coughing when I read that! :-) Usenet had massive flame > wars long before the Web existed! Yes, there were flame wars--but nothing that sank to the level of depravity of flame wars on the web. ...and it could be just that I hung out on certain newsgroups with a more refined client?le. Whatever. This was maybe circa 1981--before the IBM PC as well. You know, ones that discussed questions such as "Do all Indo-European languages use a derivation of "ti" or "cha" for the infusion of certain plants in hot water?" (Answer: no). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 23 12:58:47 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yeah, I had quite a number of problems with the original post also. We each see a different part of the elephant. Sometimes I think that Murray is/was at the other end than I am/was. I really like Murray, and what he says, but his views of what was significant or pivotal and mine seem diametrically opposite. > Early internet systems--I'm not sure where to draw the line between Usenet, > ARPANet and Internet exactly often employed nothing more than POTS > networking, using nothing more than UUCP or similar methods. Ahh! defining where to draw that line IS the fundamental aspect for declaring "FIRST"! > When I added email Internet communication, I used a package for Windows > called UUPC, which was pretty much a UUCP clone. Others simply signed up to > a service, such as Compuserve. Compuserve and The Source seem to be the primary way that non-university individuals got a chance to get started in inter computer networking. Then came AOL; remember when AOL ADDED internet connectivity? > The Internet is not the World-Wide-Web. Indeed, I have a PC package and book > titled "Internet Starter Kit" and there's no mention of a web browser. I've still got a copy of it. Next time that I stumble over it, I'll give it away. > I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. People were more polite > back then--at least in their written communication. Really? I originally thought of WWW as just a [significant] enhjancement to gopher. Some would try to place "flame" or "flame-war" as originataing in usenet. While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they started early. 'course in our day, we were much more polite in how we flamed, maybe because we kinda assumed that what we wrote might get read by those with power over us. "COULD THE PLANNING OF OS 'UPGRADES' START TO INCLUDE CONSIDERATION OF WHICH PROJECTS WILL BE ADVERSELY AFFECTED?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 23 13:24:29 2015 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:24:29 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e5e01d10dc0$0ebbb6c0$2c332440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND > emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they > started early. 'course in our day, we were much more > polite in how we flamed Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 23 13:48:53 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:48:53 -0600 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2015 11:33 AM, rod wrote: > Hi Noel > Your ps comments are very perceptive. > I have no doubt that people out there are gathering TTL even as we speak. Hides the 74LSxx and solder ... pulls out some knitting. If they still had edge connectors, 74LS382's and the old DOS pcb software I might consider it rather than a fpga. > The one I always call to mind is the guys who built themselves flight > simulators > out of genuine parts. > > I've seen replica cars of all kinds. > Boats yes > Steam Engines are good but one group built a brand new railway engine > from 1930's drawings. It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art. I think what we need to do is get those who have big iron make a list of spares needed and group buy the parts while they still can be found. 7474's can be found but 74H74's? Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 23 13:57:12 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:12 -0400 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:48 PM, ben wrote: > > ... > It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art. I don't know about that. It's a different crows than the one that hangs out here, for the most part. But mechanical innovation is alive and well (consider Boberg for example). And there's 3d printing. And there definitely are people who can use machine tools to build amazing stuff. Give them a few pieces of steel or brass and a bunch of time, and they'll hand you a fully finished model airplane engine, for example. I have not just old computers but an old lathe, too. Not that I'm much good with it, but I know a few of the basics... paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 14:15:49 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:15:49 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> I should also add.... if people are talking about reproducing DEC switch handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there. J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:27:14 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > I should also add.... if people are talking about reproducing DEC switch > handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so > whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there. Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? (fragile pivots that break off) I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several DEC handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From there, Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional replacement. SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts. SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish - functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of paint would smooth that over. -ethan From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Oct 23 14:29:45 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:29:45 -0700 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> On 10/23/15 12:27, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? > (fragile pivots that break off) Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile -- you sort of have to work to break them. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:32:19 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:32:19 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <063501d10dc9$88b78090$9a2681b0$@gmail.com> On the Vintage Computer Forums some one has produced replacement keys for his TV Typewriter using rubber moulds and casting resin. It looks shiny and dyes are available... ... but you might have to machine the hole in the end for the shaft to go into.. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan > Dicks > Sent: 23 October 2015 20:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Retro Reproduction. > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > > I should also add.... if people are talking about reproducing DEC > > switch handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for > > my DG gear so whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful > there. > > Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? > (fragile pivots that break off) > > I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several DEC > handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From there, > Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional replacement. > SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts. > SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish - > functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of paint > would smooth that over. > > -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:39:20 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:39:20 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/23/15 12:04 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > The 2190 does not, and it fails in precisely the same way I've personally >> seen three or four other Maxtor drives of the same era fail: It spins up >> fine, but when it goes to load the heads, it sounds >> like the voice coil positioner for the heads is "screaming" -- it emits a >> high-pitched, quite loud whine/buzz which persists until you power the >> drive down. The drive is unresponsive during this time. >> >> > Sounds like a failure of the positioner servo. It is on a separate platter. > > It should be possible to build something to open the servo loop and > position the heads > externally. One of those projects that I would like to get to some day. I > have about 50 > Maxtor ESDI drives from Apollo's build system that I REALLY want to get > the data off of > and I suspect there will be the same sort of problem with them. > > Hm. It would be interesting to test the servo failure hypothesis; I don't suppose anyone has a service manual for these things so I know what stuff to probe? (Nothing on Bitsavers and a casual Google search turns up nothing of interest.) - Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 23 14:42:59 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:42:59 -0600 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <562A8DC3.5070605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2015 1:29 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > On 10/23/15 12:27, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? >> (fragile pivots that break off) > > Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile -- > you sort of have to work to break them. > Bring in the Gorillas. :) Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle. Ben. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Oct 23 14:48:31 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) In-Reply-To: <562A6B82.2050107@sydex.com> References: <562A6B82.2050107@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1821597970.3278412.1445629711851.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Chuck Guzis > An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > CC: > Gesendet: 18:16 Freitag, 23.Oktober 2015 > Betreff: Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? > > On 10/23/2015 09:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > >> Maxtor drives have a very distinctive (and loud) recal sound. > > And some Maxtor drives are Miniscribes. I have one (I think it's an > ESDI, IIRC) that has a beautiful Miniscribe HDA casting, with a Maxtor > label wrapped around it. > > Ah, the good old days of brick-filled boxes... > > --Chuck > Haha, I guess you're alluding to the massive scam with the bricks, Miniscribe did back them to pretend stocks full of disk drives... BTW, are there any other similar stories from the disk drive buisiness back in these days? Pierre From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 14:55:34 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:55:34 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Ethan wrote... > Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? > (fragile pivots that break off) To which Christian replied... ---- Only the 16-bit Eclipse family, and they're really not that fragile -- you sort of have to work to break them. ---- Ethan - Yes. They have the exact same "pins" on each side of the plastic that break off pretty easily. I believe the DG handles on the nova 3, and Eclipse S/130 (and similar models) are virtually identical to some DEC switch handle. I bet they would fit on the identical CK switches we've been discussing... I know it's not the /40 style nor the 8 style. I'll do some digging. I disagree with Christian on one point... those side pins are *every bit* as fragile as the dec ones. Pictures of the DG S/130 switches (which are the same as the DG S/200 switches, and same as the Nova 3 {except color}) are at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/albums/72157657915020163 J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:56:10 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:56:10 -0400 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A8DC3.5070605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <562A8DC3.5070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:42 PM, ben wrote: > Bring in the Gorillas. :) > Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle. Yeah... For my switchless 11/70 PCB, I'm happy to buy $5 switches, but if I can't find them that cheaply, I'm not worried about a replacement method of attachment that might not be as robust as the original stainless steel punched mounting bar. The LEDs are nice and useful, but I'm not going to be debugging software from front panel switches. They just aren't going to get that much use. OTOH, I've spent a number of hours debugging a hardware fault with a PDP-8/L... I've toggled in a wad of 2-3-word test programs as I snoop and poke at signals. I'm far less likely to be doing component-level debugging on an 11/70. -ethan From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Oct 23 14:56:48 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:56:48 -0700 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9B55CF1DA27649AA97881F2DB462FE04@Vincew7> From: Ethan Dicks: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:27 PM > On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West wrote: >> I should also add.... if people are talking about reproducing DEC switch >> handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so >> whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there. > > Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? > (fragile pivots that break off) In spades -- the pivot area seems much more fragile than the DEC ones. In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with some sort of heat process, so it is virtually impossible to remove the handle without breaking off the pivots. > I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several > DEC handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From I started a Nova 3 handle, but it isn't quite right yet. > there, Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional > replacement. SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts. > SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish - > functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of > paint would smooth that over. Paint does seem to help, adding gloss to the finish. Even urethane floor wax will gloss them up some. Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:59:07 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:59:07 -0400 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ethan wrote... >> Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? >> (fragile pivots that break off) > > Ethan - Yes. They have the exact same "pins" on each side of the plastic that break off pretty easily Right/ > I believe the DG handles on the nova 3, and Eclipse S/130 (and similar models) are virtually identical to some DEC switch handle. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/albums/72157657915020163 Looking at your picture, I'd say that is not identical to any DEC switch handle I know of. The C&K switches in that photo _are_ identical to the 11/70 switch bodies (and mounting frame) we've been discussing, but not the plastic actuator past the pivots. > I bet they would fit on the identical CK switches we've been discussing... I know it's not the /40 style nor the 8 style. I'll do some digging. Yes. Those handles would fit the newer DEC switches (not the PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i era stuff with slide switches entirely unlike C&K "red" switch bodies). -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 15:02:08 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:02:08 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A8DC3.5070605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <562A8DC3.5070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000101d10dcd$b3662e50$1a328af0$@classiccmp.org> Ben wrote... ---- Bring in the Gorillas. :) Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle. ---- Guess it's all what you're doing. I use the front panels *A LOT* on all my machines. A completely missing switchcover, or a broken switch, would be far more than just an inconvenience to me at least. J From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Oct 23 15:04:12 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:04:12 -0700 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <562A92BC.1080801@mainecoon.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/23/15 12:55, Jay West wrote: > I disagree with Christian on one point... those side pins are > *every bit* as fragile as the dec ones. Maybe it's an aging thing? In the space of a decade with S/130s, S/200s, S/230s, C330s and an honest-to-%deity M/600 I never saw a switch break -- save when someone borked it when physically moving a machine. My Nova 3s are still limping along on what I suspect are the same switches that they had when they left the factory (and boy are they ugly -- who thought up the Nova 3 color scheme?) The funny thing is that I *really* prefer the switches on the Nova/Nova 8xx/Nova 12xx family -- when you needed to clear the switch register you could just swipe left to right with the back of your index finger. Didn't take long to learn not to do that with the switches on the Eclipses :P - -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlYqkrwACgkQVeEgoxCNq5fyMgCgjFwwLHbAyTFYjcdH7azdOt2s 0QkAoKNctDnwshs4mBkFua/0Y/fvnhbz =wQOw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 15:05:15 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:05:15 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201d10dce$24ba53b0$6e2efb10$@classiccmp.org> Ethan wrote... ---- Looking at your picture, I'd say that is not identical to any DEC switch handle I know of. ---- Yeah, I couldn't remember what system it was... but when I first took apart a DG front panel and looked at the plastic switch covers, I *KNOW* I remember that I had worked on some other brand of machine that had identical (or at least very close) switches. I just can't remember which one for sure. Maybe it was something other than dec.... J From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Oct 23 15:07:18 2015 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:07:18 -0700 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <000201d10dce$24ba53b0$6e2efb10$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <562A8AA9.4060603@mainecoon.com> <000001d10dcc$c7d4da40$577e8ec0$@classiccmp.org> <000201d10dce$24ba53b0$6e2efb10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <562A9376.6040208@mainecoon.com> On 10/23/15 13:05, Jay West wrote: > Yeah, I couldn't remember what system it was... but when I first took > apart a DG front panel and looked at the plastic switch covers, I > *KNOW* I remember that I had worked on some other brand of machine > that had identical (or at least very close) switches. I just can't > remember which one for sure. Maybe it was something other than > dec.... The DCC Nova clones have a very similar paddle design; those I *have* broken... -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration?" From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 23 15:14:26 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:14:26 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <9B55CF1DA27649AA97881F2DB462FE04@Vincew7> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <9B55CF1DA27649AA97881F2DB462FE04@Vincew7> Message-ID: <000501d10dcf$6b0ed2e0$412c78a0$@classiccmp.org> Vince wrote... ----- In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with some sort of heat process, so it is virtually impossible to remove the handle without breaking off the pivots. ----- I should point out... so far I've had about six or eight switch covers on various eclipse machines that were broken. In every single case, it wasn't the pivot "pin" itself that was broken. Rather, the whole pin and a millimeter or so of the surrounding area that the pin is attached to is what breaks off. Basically, the tip of the lobe that has the pin on it. Vince - what I have had good success with is releasing one side (pin out of the head), and while holding it very slightly angled using an electronics pick (very much like a dental pick, but it doesn't get wide just past the tip) and with that I can easily reach in-between the switches to release the other side. J From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 23 15:24:33 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <1e5e01d10dc0$0ebbb6c0$2c332440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> <1e5e01d10dc0$0ebbb6c0$2c332440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND >> emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they >> started early. 'course in our day, we were much more >> polite in how we flamed > > Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. > WordStar. Non-document mode. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Oct 23 15:28:01 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:28:01 -0700 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <000501d10dcf$6b0ed2e0$412c78a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001001d10dc7$3d629960$b827cc20$@classiccmp.org> <9B55CF1DA27649AA97881F2DB462FE04@Vincew7> <000501d10dcf$6b0ed2e0$412c78a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: From: Jay West: Friday, October 23, 2015 1:14 PM > Vince wrote... > ----- > In addition, the pivot heads seem to have been spread with some sort of heat > process, so it is virtually impossible to remove the handle without breaking > off the pivots. > ----- > > I should point out... so far I've had about six or eight switch covers on > various eclipse machines that were broken. In every single case, it wasn't the > pivot "pin" itself that was broken. Rather, the whole pin and a millimeter or > so of the surrounding area that the pin is attached to is what breaks off. > Basically, the tip of the lobe that has the pin on it. Yes. Those are ridiculously thin. The pivot pins themselves aren't the problem, and are actually quite comparable to the DEC ones. But there's just no strength (or flexibility, which would also work) in those lobes. > Vince - what I have had good success with is releasing one side (pin out of > the head), and while holding it very slightly angled using an electronics pick > (very much like a dental pick, but it doesn't get wide just past the tip) and > with that I can easily reach in-between the switches to release the other > side. That definitely helps, but the "spread" effect of the top of the pin being wider, doesn't. And the aged brittle plastic of the hinge pin supports makes complete success unlikely. Fortunately, a good bit of the support is actually provided by the bat. Even on the ones with the pivots completely toast, you might not notice unless you tried to pull the handle toward you (not recommended). Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 15:29:31 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND >> emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they >> started early. 'course in our day, we were much more >> polite in how we flamed > > > Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. I'd expect wide-eyed stares from a vi user... ;-) Q: What goes "beep beep beep"? A: A Little Nash Rambler... and a vi novice. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 23 15:36:06 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> <1e5e01d10dc0$0ebbb6c0$2c332440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: >>> started early. 'course in our day, we were much more >>> polite in how we flamed >> Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, geneb wrote: > WordStar. Non-document mode. Did you really think that that was better than Electric Pencil? My very first inspiration for writing XenoCopy was ads for Michael Shrayer's program to convert files from Electric Pencil disks to CP/M disks. I never saw or used it, but the idea that files COULD BE converted between incompatible disk formats, . . . Until August 1981, my development efforts were on TRS80. TRS80 version was a welcome surprise, and then Pennington's PC version was a shock, but much too late. From Wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 23 15:41:58 2015 From: Wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:41:58 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent text editor for it.? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ethan Dicks Date: 10/23/2015 4:29 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: The Internet & our hobby On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND >> emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they >> started early.? 'course in our day, we were much more >> polite in how we flamed > > > Emacs?? You _MUST_ be kidding. I'd expect wide-eyed stares from a vi user... ;-) Q: What goes "beep beep beep"? A: A Little Nash Rambler... and a vi novice. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 23 15:49:18 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:49:18 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> On 10/23/2015 01:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:48 PM, ben wrote: >> >> ... >> It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art. > I don't know about that. Yes, there is an open-source project that provides a CNC machine control for mill, lathes, hexapods and robots. That is LinuxCNC. It started as a NIST project to see what was so complicated in a CNC control, but then moved out of NIST and has been extended greatly. it is also now being used for 3D printers. I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have sold over 300 controller-interfaces. Some other outfits likely have sold a lot more than that. Most of this is going into hobby shops and small businesses that maybe grew out of a hobby shop. Also, I am a member of an Atlas lathe group and the Sheldon lathe group, they both have a fairly large membership. The Atlas lathe group is closing in on 6000 members! Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 23 16:30:01 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> <1e5e01d10dc0$0ebbb6c0$2c332440$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> started early. 'course in our day, we were much more >>>> polite in how we flamed >>> Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, geneb wrote: >> WordStar. Non-document mode. > > Did you really think that that was better than Electric Pencil? > I'm going to say "yes", simply because not having ever even seen it makes it worse than WordStar. :) > > My very first inspiration for writing XenoCopy was ads for Michael Shrayer's > program to convert files from Electric Pencil disks to CP/M disks. I never > saw or used it, but the idea that files COULD BE converted between > incompatible disk formats, . . . > Until August 1981, my development efforts were on TRS80. > It would be really cool if you were to upload XenoCopy to the IA with a description of how it came to be, the development process and its history. I suspect it would be a fascinating read. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 23 16:32:04 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/23/2015 01:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:48 PM, ben wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> It does seem mechanical stuff is dieing art. >> I don't know about that. > Yes, there is an open-source project that provides a CNC machine control for > mill, lathes, hexapods and robots. That is LinuxCNC. It started as a NIST > project to see what was so complicated in a CNC control, but then moved out > of NIST and has been extended greatly. it is also now being used for 3D > printers. > > I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have sold > over 300 controller-interfaces. > A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle Bone Black.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 23 16:43:50 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:43:50 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/15 12:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I don't > suppose anyone has a service manual for these things so I know what stuff > to probe? (Nothing on Bitsavers and a casual Google search turns up > nothing of interest.) > Service manuals/schematics/ASIC info is EXTREMELY difficult to get for anything beyond the stepper motor era. What is on bitsavers are the results of my searching for 20+ years, and that isn't much. I've been digging into early 90's DC2000 QIC drives over the past couple weeks, and hw docs for them are just as difficult to find. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 16:49:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) Message-ID: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > Haha, I guess you're alluding to the massive scam with the bricks, > Miniscribe did back them to pretend stocks full of disk drives... Never heard the story. Can someone oblige? > BTW, are there any other similar stories from the disk drive buisiness > back in these days? I don't know about disk drives, but there are lot of scam stories. One minicomputer manufacturer (sorry, don't remember who, but I think it was on the 128 belt) was shipping empty cabinets, in order to meet projections (I dunno if they couldn't afford the parts to build the guts, or if their manufacturing division couldn't build the stuff, or what). Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 23 17:02:06 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201510232202.SAA03797@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Early internet systems--I'm not sure where to draw the line between > Usenet, ARPANet and Internet [...] I would say that the Internet was the collection of hosts/networks supporting (and assuming) more-or-less[%] real-time host-to-host connectivity. [%] RFC 1149, anyone? :-) Thus, a host on dialup UUCP, even if the call is nailed up, doesn't count. Of course, I am hardly an authority in this regard. > When I added email Internet communication, I used a package for > Windows called UUPC, which was pretty much a UUCP clone. Others > simply signed up to a service, such as Compuserve. Indeed. And, for a significant time, I too could mostly get mail to and from the Internet, but I would not say that any of the computers I routinely used during that time were on the Internet. (For those with pathalias data from back then, mcgill-vision was my home site....) > The Internet is not the World-Wide-Web. _So_ true. It really annoys me when an organization advertises Internet connectivity and actually delivers half-assed crippled Web-only connectivity. (I've given serious thought to building an IP-over-HTTP transport just to deal with them.) > I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. Oh, man, so do I. So do I. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From andy.holt at tesco.net Fri Oct 23 17:22:42 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >>>> Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent text editor for it.? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone <<<< Ah, but nowadays who cares about "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping" (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB Andy From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 23 17:22:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 23:22:52 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 Message-ID: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Well my missive on reproductions seems to have generated some interest. There seems to be a lot of will to keep the old systems going and to reproduce parts for them and indeed build complete systems from new parts. The main areas of interest are front panels (Not just DEC), key switches and bezels. Panels I can handle. Who wants to be the focus for switches and who for bezels? More than one person for each category can only be a good thing. I'll call them "The Makers" Those who want the items I'll call "The Takers" from 'I'll take one / some if they get made." Thats my two cents on parts sourcing. The other topic was less computer centric and can be defined as "They don't make them any more" The UK is full of small companies making and repairing all kinds of past products. For example the MGB GT (a much loved British sports car). The factory stopped making them in the early 1980's However a few guys bought the press tools and have been turning out two or three body shells a day ever since. Copy of a Shelby Cobra - no problem build from a kit. GT40 clone oh yes! Now we are not in that league but with the various tasks taken on by those with the knowledge and experience we can make the difficult to parts available. Rod Smallwood From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 17:42:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:42:29 -0700 Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) In-Reply-To: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562AB7D5.703@sydex.com> On 10/23/2015 02:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Pierre Gebhardt > >> Haha, I guess you're alluding to the massive scam with the bricks, >> Miniscribe did back them to pretend stocks full of disk drives... > > Never heard the story. Can someone oblige? > >> BTW, are there any other similar stories from the disk drive >> buisiness back in these days? > > I don't know about disk drives, but there are lot of scam stories. > One minicomputer manufacturer (sorry, don't remember who, but I think > it was on the 128 belt) was shipping empty cabinets, in order to meet > projections (I dunno if they couldn't afford the parts to build the > guts, or if their manufacturing division couldn't build the stuff, or > what). Oh, bricks aren't even necessary now that the sharp-pencil guys are running the show. You create a corporate shell hidden under god-knows-what-layer of-legal-foo, then loan it the funds to purchase the product. Enron did this--and so did Lucent under Carly Fiorina. Great for inflating revenue figures. --Chuck From db at db.net Fri Oct 23 18:00:38 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:00:38 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <20151023230038.GA47730@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:22:42PM +0000, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >>>> > Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent text editor for it.? > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > <<<< > > Ah, but nowadays who cares about > "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping" > (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB > I have fond memories of our Unix sys admin refusing to install a bloated editor. vi on a PDP-11/45 (v7 Unix) > Andy > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 18:38:53 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:38:53 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023230038.GA47730@night.db.net> References: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <20151023230038.GA47730@night.db.net> Message-ID: <0aa201d10deb$fab33820$f019a860$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane > Bruce > Sent: 24 October 2015 00:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: The Internet & our hobby > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:22:42PM +0000, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > >>>> > > Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a > > decent text editor for it. > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone <<<< > > > > Ah, but nowadays who cares about > > "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping" > > (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB > > > My favourite comment on VI was one made by Eric Thomas on VMShare many years ago... .. it starts ... Append on 08/26/92 at 11:03 by Eric Thomas : biff is what you use to tell unix whether you want to be told about new incoming mail messages. The command is named after the dog of the person who wrote it, which was unique in that it barked whenever the mailman put something in the mailbox. vi stands for visual display editor, I guess because it is unique in that it shows you the file visually, rather than by morse code on the terminal bell. vi works this way: one page of the file is displayed and the cursor is placed on the lower left corner. You can conveniently move the cursor with the h, j, k and l keys, which go respectively left, down, up and right.... You can read more here... http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=TOOLKIT&ft=MEMO&args=biff#hit > > I have fond memories of our Unix sys admin refusing to install a bloated > editor. > > vi on a PDP-11/45 (v7 Unix) > > > Andy > > > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 18:43:43 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:43:43 +1300 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > > Well my missive on reproductions seems to have generated some interest. > There seems to be a lot of will to keep the old systems going and to > reproduce parts for them > and indeed build complete systems from new parts. > > The main areas of interest are front panels (Not just DEC), key switches and > bezels. > Panels I can handle. Who wants to be the focus for switches and who for > bezels? > > More than one person for each category can only be a good thing. I'll call > them "The Makers" > Those who want the items I'll call "The Takers" from 'I'll take one / some > if they get made." Do you think you will be able to do 'custom' or one-off items if you get the process efficient enough? I have a laundry list of panel bits I need... 1. A replacement perspex for a pdp-12; damaged in shipping :-( 2. I have a couple of pdp-15s - and both have the panels that were unique to the XVM incarnation of that system, like nothing else DEC ever made; stick-on flexible plastic sheets mounted to a metal support mask - see http://www.corestore.org/15-2.htm - I'd like convert one at least of those to the 'traditional' DEC style of perspex panel. I think that might end up being the only RP15 and FPP15 indicator panels you ever make :-) 3. There is ONE IBM system (that I know of) that uses perspex, similar to DEC: the System/360 Model 30. All other IBM panels are metal with individual lights mounted in separate holes. The Model 30 uses perspex: see https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/13437981955_ffdf7b7ef6_o.jpg Differences from DEC panels are... all the printing in on the front of the panel, there is no 'mask' for the lights printed on the back, and the light 'holes' in the print are not round, but characters - illuminated captions - and they're not clear holes but colored; some are translucent white, some are translucent red: see http://egc.co.nz/2030lites.png for the effect. Could you make one of those; another one damaged in shipping grrrrr? Full panel is split into two parts, see: https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/13437981955_ffdf7b7ef6_o.jpg 4. IBM metal panel consoles. I have a couple of these - System/370 models 145 and 155 - which are complete but a bit ropy and rusty and damaged in parts; see: http://www.corestore.org/370148-1.jpg - They're just sheet steel painted black with the legend silkscreened (I presume) on. To restore these I need to remove the rust - which means removing the paint and the silkscreening... could you help with those? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Oct 23 18:46:38 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:46:38 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023230038.GA47730@night.db.net> References: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <20151023230038.GA47730@night.db.net> Message-ID: <562AC6DE.6090205@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/10/2015 00:00, Diane Bruce wrote: > I have fond memories of our Unix sys admin refusing to install a bloated > editor. > > vi on a PDP-11/45 (v7 Unix) Ah yes, I remember similar issues. If you try to run vi (and some other things) under 7th Edition set up for a machine like the 11/23, it responds "Not, as yet, available for a small machine." The wording may be particular to certain 7th Ed distributions but the puport is common. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 23 19:06:36 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:06:36 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562ACB8C.2080604@pico-systems.com> On 10/23/2015 04:32 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > >> >> I sell some hardware for motion control based on this >> software, and have sold over 300 controller-interfaces. >> > A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle > Bone Black.... > Yes, my latest product is the CRAMPS board for machinekit and BBB. Jon From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 23 19:11:42 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:11:42 +1000 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Mike said: > 4. IBM metal panel consoles. I have a couple of these - System/370 > models 145 and 155 - which are complete but a bit ropy and rusty and > damaged in parts; see: http://www.corestore.org/370148-1.jpg - They're > just sheet steel painted black with the legend silkscreened (I > presume) on. To restore these I need to remove the rust - which means > removing the paint and the silkscreening... could you help with those? Looking at your panel, my feeling is that to repaint and silkscreen a section would look so obviously different from the rest of it that it would be better to get the lot done, or none at all. But, that would be like antique furniture restorers who sand back the scratched but original lacquer only to repaint. Years ago on one of those UK TV productions on antiques a furniture expert lament just such a thing. He could not believe that people would destroy the character of huncreds of years of use just to make it look new again. I would clean the rusted patches (they don't look too bad, and more importantly they seem to not be near any printing). Then I would visit the hobby shop and buy a Humbrol-type tin of flat and gloss enamel and try both on a test card. One will match better. Then just sit down and carefully paint in the bits. My /40 console has lifting paint along the lower edge, I think it stood on a damp basement floor for a long time. What can I do about it? Well, I think best leave it alone and just touch in the spots with the right colour. Looks like you need some button inserts too :) I have some plans for repops that would follow the 'six foot rule' ie it looks good from six feet away :) Steve. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Oct 23 19:48:26 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:48:26 -0500 Subject: Commodore and Atari Message-ID: <0dd001d10df5$b1c6f610$1554e230$@com> Is anyone interested in a Vic 20, Atari 800XL, or an Amiga? The Amiga appears to be missing a couple of things. No AC adapters for any of them. Complete key caps, no severe yellowing, no way to test. The Amiga resembles this one: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/amiga500.jpg Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 23 22:27:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:27:52 -0500 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562AFAB8.3020102@charter.net> On 10/22/2015 7:54 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > 43 years ago around this time the Internet we use to communicate with > was probably made possible because of TCP/IP, or Transmission Control > Protocol/Internet Protocol created at Stanford University. Today 3 > billion people are on the net but really made it possible for this > extravagant number was the microcomputer created at around the same > time ? the Micral in France and 4004 processor machines in the U.S. > Our hobby supported through this web site keeps this history alive. > Hurrah! > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) > > PS This week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein?s Theory of > General Relativity though published in 1916 according to Wikipedia. > Your account of the Internet and TCP/IP conflicts *significantly* with several published accounts of the history of the Internet that used quite reliable sources (many of them still living). Some suggested reading: The Dream Machine. J.C.R. Licklider and the Revolution That Made Computing Personal. M. Mitchell Waldrop, Penguin where wizards stay up late: the origins of the internet katie hafner, matthew lyon, Simon & Schuster Both very enjoyable reads. From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 23 22:28:45 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:28:45 -0500 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562AFAED.6050600@charter.net> On 10/23/2015 3:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > I'd expect wide-eyed stares from a vi user... ;-) > > > Q: What goes "beep beep beep"? > > A: A Little Nash Rambler... and a vi novice. > > -ethan > ROTFL. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 23 22:37:49 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:37:49 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562AFD0D.7000905@charter.net> On 10/23/2015 6:43 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > 1. A replacement perspex for a pdp-12; damaged in shipping :-( If you mean the plexiglass for the console, I might be able to help with that. I thought at one point I was going to get an entire PDP-12 from U. Wisconsin Comm. Arts, but when I showed up on the appointed day, it had been dismantled - but I did get the backplanes with cards, and the console, more or less intact, and the VR14 - just no racks or power supply, RK05's (including their controller) or TU56. [I later obtained and still have an entire PDP-12]. Unlike sending a DG terminal to NZ or OZ, I suspect this would be more manageable. The IBM 1401 and 1410 and many other machines had plastic display panels at various places - and even the main console - that allowed a lamp to shine through at the desired places in front of lights, not unlike what DEC did. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 23 22:40:16 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:40:16 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: <562AFD0D.7000905@charter.net> References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> <562AFD0D.7000905@charter.net> Message-ID: <562AFDA0.9050303@charter.net> On 10/23/2015 10:37 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/23/2015 6:43 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> 1. A replacement perspex for a pdp-12; damaged in shipping :-( > > If you mean the plexiglass for the console, I might be able to help with > that. I thought at one point I was going to get an entire PDP-12 from > U. Wisconsin Comm. Arts, but when I showed up on the appointed day, it > had been dismantled - but I did get the backplanes with cards, and the > console, more or less intact, and the VR14 - just no racks or power > supply, RK05's (including their controller) or TU56. [I later obtained > and still have an entire PDP-12]. Unlike sending a DG terminal to NZ or > OZ, I suspect this would be more manageable. > > The IBM 1401 and 1410 and many other machines had plastic display panels > at various places - and even the main console - that allowed a lamp to > shine through at the desired places in front of lights, not unlike what > DEC did. > D'oh - Mike, you had already described what the 1401 and 1410 had to a "T" - holes for individual lamps, with red or off-white display words that shone through. > JRJ > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 23 23:15:08 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:15:08 -0700 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <562AFAED.6050600@charter.net> References: <562A6DCE.8060704@sydex.com> <562AFAED.6050600@charter.net> Message-ID: <562B05CC.4060101@jwsss.com> On 10/23/2015 8:28 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/23/2015 3:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >> I'd expect wide-eyed stares from a vi user... ;-) >> >> >> Q: What goes "beep beep beep"? >> >> A: A Little Nash Rambler... and a vi novice. >> >> -ethan >> > ROTFL. > > JRJ Microdata Reality system with a bad disk, or a busy system. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 24 01:50:06 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:50:06 +0200 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151023170635.81CF418C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023170635.81CF418C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562B2A1E.6050009@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-23 19:06, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > not going to try and contradict what you wrote. > > Right, I wasn't meaning to imply what you said was incorrect, just giving a > little more detail on what was a murky and complicated process. > > > I suspect it's because people now assume that "Internet" was always > > TCP/IP > > Define "the Internet"! :-) If one describes it as 'the large collection of > interoperating networks speaking TCP/IP', then that statement _is_ correct! > If one instead uses a broader definition, something like 'computer networks > in general' (pulling in things like Usenet), then, no, it's not correct. Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years old... Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40. > I'm _not_ trying to say that there is only one, correct, definition of 'the > Internet' - but various statements about 'the Internet' may or may not be > accurate, depending on which definition is used. Agreed. But the OP was being rather specific. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Oct 24 01:58:58 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:58:58 +0200 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <562B2C32.7010601@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-24 00:22, ANDY HOLT wrote: >>>>> > Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent text editor for it. > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > <<<< > > Ah, but nowadays who cares about > "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping" > (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB You people are confusing Emacs with the recent GNU Emacs... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 24 02:21:42 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:21:42 -0700 Subject: Speaking of reproductions.. Message-ID: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool). But I am hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm so deep into Radio Electronics features. I know there was a kit out there (Obtronix?). Was it any good? Do I need someone to make a new kit or is the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was? Ie. were there ever foil patterns available for those boards or did the kit maker reverse engineer from originals? Is there any likelihood of finding one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for $2000 on Fleabay once.. ) Brad From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 24 03:03:01 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 03:03:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Speaking of reproductions.. In-Reply-To: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> References: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Brad wrote: > I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool). But I am > hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since > I'm so deep into Radio Electronics features. I know there was a kit out > there (Obtronix?). Was it any good? Do I need someone to make a new > kit or is the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the > TVT was? Ie. were there ever foil patterns available for those boards > or did the kit maker reverse engineer from originals? Is there any > likelihood of finding one of the replica kits still out there (I > remember seeing one offered for $2000 on Fleabay once.. ) The patterns for most of the Mark-8 pc boards were published in Radio Electronics (except for maybe the cassette interface?). I'm not aware of anyone who has redrawn them having made their versions freely available however. There have been a few people in the past who have offered unpopulated reproduction pc boards at significant cost, but they were beyond my budget for such a hobby project. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 24 03:05:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:05:49 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562B3BDD.8010304@btinternet.com> Er.. Wow! Ok the process mimics the original production system. I draw the panel using Inkscape because it runs on windows and Linux, produces .svg (scalable vector graphics) files and its free!! As sources I use photographs, Scans (The best way because there are no lens errors) and drawings from print sets. There?s usually a dominant layer or color. For example pdp8's often have lines and text in white. So what I do is to draw all the layers one per color. As these will become the positives for the silk screens they are always black. To do check prints I have a HP DesignJet T120 (24" wide roll feed) Printing on reproduction clear film would generate the master positives. However the girls like to be able to tweak things so they get the .svg files. They have a printer all set up with repro film anyway. I also have a plastics supplier who will not only laser cut the blanks to size but do holes and cut outs as well. So armed with my drawing files on disk and a pile of blanks its off to my silk screen printers. If its a repeat order then they go and get the ready made screens. I own them and they keep them for me. If its a new job then they make the screens. The screen on its frame gets hand coated with a photo sensitive liquid which dries in a short time. The coated and dried screens are then exposed through my masters. Where the black lines where can be washed off with water and hence let the ink through when printing. The only real skill so far is getting the right amount of resist on the screen. Now for the skilled bit. The place is run by two very nice girls age about mid twenties. They both have art degrees and are qualified colourists. Getting the colors matched and getting the right mesh size saw them sit down with their ink and screen rep and after about an hour I'm told came up with the answers. They can match way beyond a just noticeable difference and being female (and there's no doubt about that) don't suffer from color blindness (which I do) The final stage is the actual printing. They use vacuum printing tables. They are about five feet square and about a foot deep. Also very heavy. There?s a pattern of holes in the bottom and a domestic vacuum cleaner is used as an exhaust pump. They also set up corner references to get each panel in the same position. The screens are mounted on a sliding bar arrangement . Getting this lot to register is a highly skilled job and not for the amateur. I can duplicate most panels (metal as well) but as they say in the USA "custom costs" I'm setting up for my next run now. (artworks done) Its for PDP8/e (two types) 8/f and 8/m I'm in the drawing stage for 11/45 11/55 11/70 (common blank size) So given a scan and measurements and a panel that's not too big (max to fit on a 19" rack box) I can have a go at most types of panel. Now we need a bezel production person/group, switches source and lamp panel producer. 3D printing for the switches possibly? For one off panels I'm looking at flat bed printers. So far way to expensive. I hope this sets out what can be done. Rod Smallwood "If you take and do not give then soon there will be nothing more to take" On 24/10/15 00:43, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, rod wrote: >> Hi Guys >> >> Well my missive on reproductions seems to have generated some interest. >> There seems to be a lot of will to keep the old systems going and to >> reproduce parts for them >> and indeed build complete systems from new parts. >> >> The main areas of interest are front panels (Not just DEC), key switches and >> bezels. >> Panels I can handle. Who wants to be the focus for switches and who for >> bezels? >> >> More than one person for each category can only be a good thing. I'll call >> them "The Makers" >> Those who want the items I'll call "The Takers" from 'I'll take one / some >> if they get made." > Do you think you will be able to do 'custom' or one-off items if you > get the process efficient enough? I have a laundry list of panel bits > I need... > > 1. A replacement perspex for a pdp-12; damaged in shipping :-( > > 2. I have a couple of pdp-15s - and both have the panels that were > unique to the XVM incarnation of that system, like nothing else DEC > ever made; stick-on flexible plastic sheets mounted to a metal support > mask - see http://www.corestore.org/15-2.htm - I'd like convert one at > least of those to the 'traditional' DEC style of perspex panel. I > think that might end up being the only RP15 and FPP15 indicator panels > you ever make :-) > > 3. There is ONE IBM system (that I know of) that uses perspex, similar > to DEC: the System/360 Model 30. All other IBM panels are metal with > individual lights mounted in separate holes. The Model 30 uses > perspex: see https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/13437981955_ffdf7b7ef6_o.jpg > Differences from DEC panels are... all the printing in on the front of > the panel, there is no 'mask' for the lights printed on the back, and > the light 'holes' in the print are not round, but characters - > illuminated captions - and they're not clear holes but colored; some > are translucent white, some are translucent red: see > http://egc.co.nz/2030lites.png for the effect. Could you make one of > those; another one damaged in shipping grrrrr? Full panel is split > into two parts, see: > https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/13437981955_ffdf7b7ef6_o.jpg > > 4. IBM metal panel consoles. I have a couple of these - System/370 > models 145 and 155 - which are complete but a bit ropy and rusty and > damaged in parts; see: http://www.corestore.org/370148-1.jpg - They're > just sheet steel painted black with the legend silkscreened (I > presume) on. To restore these I need to remove the rust - which means > removing the paint and the silkscreening... could you help with those? > > Thanks > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sat Oct 24 03:50:43 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:50:43 +0200 Subject: Pinging Oscar Vermeulen: Blinkenlight API for PiDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562B4663.70102@t-online.de> Oscar, I forgot to ask for your private email on VCFB, so I use this public channel. Can you sell me a PiDP8, so I can port my Blinkenlight Api Server to the platform of the upcoming 11/70? I'd like to have it as preassembled as possible, 'cause my schedule is very tight. http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone BTW, my photos of VCFB are here: ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/index.html ... you remember me shooting into your face while the street car rumbled behind your back? Thanks, Joerg Am 23.10.2015 um 12:54 schrieb Oscar Vermeulen: >>> http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh > > That's a work of art, together with the PDP-10 he did. I saw them running on a nice touch screen at VCF Berlin, and I wondered whether all this physical replication stuff makes sense when that's around at zero cost. Then I put my blinkers back on and went ahead anyway :) > >>> You hit upon one of the key needs for these projects, a good replica bezel. >>> In my project I had to have a plexiglass bezel laser cut then used white plastic >>> to frame that bezel. It works but I would love to have a replica bezel. > > Did you perchance make a CAD design for that, which could be reused? ;) I'm drafting a design at the moment, but far from perfect still. > > I think of all the technologies available for making the bezel, vacuum forming seems to make the most sense. Injection molding is much better quality but just too expensive (tens of thousands USD). The other approaches, I think, work fine for small quantities. But I suspect there's a 'need' to make a few hundred. > > Probably the best way is to make a very good open-source CAD model. Then make a low-cost vacuum forming mold, whilst anyone could still use the CAD file for higher-quality one-offs on a CNC router or, perhaps, 3D printer. The problem with vacuum forming is that you cannot make much more details other than the outer hull, which will look fine but need a lot of work on the inside to really mount in an original PDP-11. > > Regards, Oscar. > > From dave at willomail.co.uk Sat Oct 24 05:40:44 2015 From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:40:44 +0100 Subject: Speaking of reproductions.. In-Reply-To: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> References: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <562B602C.5080602@willomail.co.uk> On 24/10/2015 08:21, Brad wrote: > I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool). But I am > hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm > so deep into Radio Electronics features. I know there was a kit out there > (Obtronix?). Was it any good? Do I need someone to make a new kit or is > the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was? Ie. > were there ever foil patterns available for those boards or did the kit > maker reverse engineer from originals? Is there any likelihood of finding > one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for > $2000 on Fleabay once.. ) > Don't know of anybody currently supplying Mark-8 replica boards but Mike Willegal does have complete boards set for building a SCELBI 8H or 8B... http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html Cheers, Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 06:19:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:19:55 +0000 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > The UK is full of small companies making and repairing all kinds of past > products. > > For example the MGB GT (a much loved British sports car). The factory > stopped making them in the early 1980's > However a few guys bought the press tools and have been turning out two > or three body shells a day ever since. > > Copy of a Shelby Cobra - no problem build from a kit. GT40 clone oh yes! Be careful... On this list a GT40 comes from DEC and not Ford :-) But as I understand it, those reproduction cars have reproduced bodywork on top of modern mechnanicals. The engine, for example, is not a copy of the original, it's a current-production car engine, complete with electronic engine management and thus without the reason I would want a classic car in the first place! It's like a lot of the reproduction computers discussed here and elsewhere. They look the same, the run the same programs, but no way _are_ they the same. An RPi (or Beaglebone, or...) running an emulator is not a PDP11/70. And as a hardware hacker, a machine I can't stick my logic analyser on is of little interest -tony From db at db.net Sat Oct 24 07:10:53 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:10:53 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <562B2C32.7010601@update.uu.se> References: <317906807.764161.1445638962915.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <562B2C32.7010601@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151024121053.GA76470@night.db.net> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 08:58:58AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-24 00:22, ANDY HOLT wrote: > >>>>> > > Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent text editor for it. > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > > <<<< > > > > Ah, but nowadays who cares about > > "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping" > > (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB > > You people are confusing Emacs with the recent GNU Emacs... :-) > > Johnny You mean the TECO macro? I remember that. > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 24 07:11:20 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:11:20 +0100 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: References: <562AB33C.3000708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562B7567.6070903@btinternet.com> Hello Tony Well like a lot of things its not always simple. Lets deal with the GT40 first. Well I know why I picked the car as opposed to the display. In the late 1960's I did what was called a sandwich course. Part of the time at work and part at college. I worked in the test lab of a local cable manufacturer The guy I worked for was in his sixties and would retire soon. He had been a racing driver prewar and knew everybody in car racing. So well as having a test lab with every kind of electronic test equipment you could ever want. I spent a lot of time at race tracks. At nineteen what more could you want. Anyway one day I came back from lunch to find a GT40 parked outside the lab. It was very sparse inside just bare fiber glass, wiring and a small passenger seat. My boss said oh you have seen it then? Want a ride? Dave will take you. I said it was a bit spartan inside. Oh yes its just raced at LeMans ( can't remember if they won that year) we have to keep the weight down I'm 5'7" and weighed about 130 pounds in those days and I could get in. My boss could not! Suffice to say off we went and headed up to Maidenhead where the M4 began in those days. It was unrestricted and what followed was a blur, the vibration , the noise. No speedometer just a large rev counter. When we got back there was my boss with a big grin on his face. The driver stayed in the car and we waved him off. Bill (the boss) took me in his office and poured me a small scotch from his private supply. I said I was a bit shook up. He said he was not surprised as 180 mph in a GT40 would do that. Happy Days oh yes! Rod On 24/10/15 12:19, tony duell wrote: >> The UK is full of small companies making and repairing all kinds of past >> products. >> >> For example the MGB GT (a much loved British sports car). The factory >> stopped making them in the early 1980's >> However a few guys bought the press tools and have been turning out two >> or three body shells a day ever since. >> >> Copy of a Shelby Cobra - no problem build from a kit. GT40 clone oh yes! > Be careful... On this list a GT40 comes from DEC and not Ford :-) > > But as I understand it, those reproduction cars have reproduced bodywork > on top of modern mechnanicals. The engine, for example, is not a copy of > the original, it's a current-production car engine, complete with electronic > engine management and thus without the reason I would want a classic > car in the first place! > > It's like a lot of the reproduction computers discussed here and elsewhere. They > look the same, the run the same programs, but no way _are_ they the same. An > RPi (or Beaglebone, or...) running an emulator is not a PDP11/70. > > And as a hardware hacker, a machine I can't stick my logic analyser on is of little > interest > > -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 24 07:43:47 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:43:47 +0100 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 Message-ID: Hi folks, PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon. Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48 programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to google and USENET: 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down) 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end (2332 Vpp) Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24 don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me "continuity error on pin 20" Have I goofed somewhere? Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 24 09:56:41 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: <20151024145641.75AAF18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years old... > Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40. Good point! {Does a little math in his head...} 43 years, that gives us 1972. The OP was clearly thinking of the ARPANET. Which as I have mentioned, was _very_ different from TCP/IP, inside. Don't get me wrong, we learned a _tremendous_ amount from the ARPANET, and it was a key step, but it's about as similar to TCP/IP as the Wright brothers airplanes (with their 'wing-warping' roll control system, etc) are to modern airplanes. (And actually, that's slightly unfair to the Wright brothers; their airplanes are, IMO, actually closer to modern airplanes than the ARPANET is to TCP/IP!) Noel From cube1 at charter.net Sat Oct 24 10:42:22 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:42:22 -0500 Subject: Speaking of reproductions.. In-Reply-To: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> References: <01c201d10e2c$a1fedf40$e5fc9dc0$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <562BA6DE.6070005@charter.net> On 10/24/2015 2:21 AM, Brad wrote: > I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool). But I am > hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm > so deep into Radio Electronics features. I know there was a kit out there > (Obtronix?). Was it any good? Do I need someone to make a new kit or is > the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was? Ie. > were there ever foil patterns available for those boards or did the kit > maker reverse engineer from originals? Is there any likelihood of finding > one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for > $2000 on Fleabay once.. ) > > Brad > Yes, the Mark 8 is within the realm of the hobbyist. I am not certain how the kits that were sold online were done. I did my own replica. I first did it by creating a schematic in KiCAD, and then built the thing with wire wrap and tested it, to make sure I had my schematic correct. Then, having verified the schematic with the wire wrap boards, I used KiCAD to lay them out as closely as I could manage to the originals (I had the original documents that I bought back in the day), and had Gold Phoenix make them for me. I think the boards cost me something like $500, done as two separate panel orders (along with some smaller boards to fill out the panel), but I ended up with two Mark 8 sets, because Gold Phoenix made a mistake on the first run, and so I got two of the first panel. So then when I got those back and verified them and was ready to order the second panel, I had two of them made. So, it presumably could be done for a bit less. There are a couple of Signetics parts that can be hard to find, but when I did mine I could get them from Little Diode in the UK. However, because of the scarcity of the Signetics parts, I also designed little GAL replacement boards for them that were physically compatible. I never did do a suitable case for either replica. You can see photos of what I did, wire wrap and PCB, here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/100660569 at N02/albums/72157635194594542 https://www.flickr.com/photos/100660569 at N02/albums/72157635953237715 However, I don't have any to sell. JRJ From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 12:15:41 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:15:41 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> On 10/23/15 2:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/23/15 12:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I don't >> suppose anyone has a service manual for these things so I know what >> stuff >> to probe? (Nothing on Bitsavers and a casual Google search turns up >> nothing of interest.) >> > > Service manuals/schematics/ASIC info is EXTREMELY difficult to get for > anything beyond > the stepper motor era. What is on bitsavers are the results of my > searching for > 20+ years, and that isn't much. I've been digging into early 90's > DC2000 QIC drives over the > past couple weeks, and hw docs for them are just as difficult to find. That's pretty much what I figured. I took a closer look at one of the other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to the head assembly. I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed, though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very careful disassembly in a very clean environment. (And a nonexistent service manual.) - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 24 12:53:56 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: <20151024145641.75AAF18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151024145641.75AAF18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years old... > > Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40. On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Good point! {Does a little math in his head...} 43 years, that gives us 1972. > The OP was clearly thinking of the ARPANET. Which as I have mentioned, was > _very_ different from TCP/IP, inside. OR, he made a simple trivial typo or calculation typo, and meant 33, instead of 43. That would place us in 1982, which is about right for TCP/IP. From jrr at flippers.com Sat Oct 24 13:18:16 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:18:16 -0700 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562BCB68.2090705@flippers.com> On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed > thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for > everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon. > > Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48 > programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL > read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to > google and USENET: > > 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) > 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down) > 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end > (2332 Vpp) > > Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24 > don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me > "continuity error on pin 20" > > Have I goofed somewhere? > > Cheers, > You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read. There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332 in a 2732 socket. 2332 Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24) Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21) If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes: 2332 Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected. 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should work though. I don't think you will need the diodes though. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 24 13:27:37 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:27:37 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562BCD99.1050302@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/15 10:15 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon > cable running to the head assembly. Those are the head preamps. You should be able to scope out if there is anything coming out of them. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 13:40:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:40:30 +0000 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org>,<562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > That's pretty much what I figured. I took a closer look at one of the > other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and > there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to > the head assembly. I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed, > though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very > careful disassembly in a very clean environment. (And a nonexistent > service manual.) I have had (in other devices) dry joints on SMD devices on flexiprints. But resoldering them inside the HDA is not going to be easy... Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom. On older/larger drives (the sort of thing I am more likely to work on) the ICs were often DIL packages on a normal PCB. Often you couldn't replace them without opening the HDA :-(. Micropolis had a nice feature on the 1200 series (8" hard drives) though -- the PCB was mounted over a hole in the HDA casing (obviously with a gasket). The heads were wired to the inside face of the PCB, the cable to the logic board plugged into the outside face. The ICs were plugged into turned pin sockets on the outside. So on that drive you could field-replace them. They were custom chips, though. And of course you couldn't replace soldered parts, like the decoupling capacitors as the solder joints formed part of the HDA seal... -tony - Josh From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 24 13:47:16 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 19:47:16 +0100 Subject: piggybacked TSOP memory chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562BD234.50905@ntlworld.com> On 13/09/15 08:33, dave at 661.org wrote: > > Someone on #classiccmp showed pictures of a DDR SDRAM module with > piggybacked TSOP memory chips. I've never heard of doing this with > surface-mounted devices. > > http://imgur.com/a/CGk8h > I have, within easy reach, a 1GB SDRAM (168-pin) SDRAM that does exactly this. I've seen plenty of smaller capacity SDRAM modules, and the 1GB one is the only one that I've seen that does this. You can feel the difference in weight between the 1GB module and a 512MB one. -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From simski at dds.nl Sat Oct 24 13:54:07 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:54:07 +0200 Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US Message-ID: <562BD3CF.10703@dds.nl> As my mail to cctech dod'nt came through, here a mail only to the cctalk list. sorry if it becomes a double post. Hi All, I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise non/half functional T100 in the usa. they need the machines for a movie in the New York area. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 24 14:24:51 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:24:51 +0200 Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US In-Reply-To: <562BD3CF.10703@dds.nl> References: <562BD3CF.10703@dds.nl> Message-ID: Simon, cctech is moderated. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "simon" Verzonden: ?24-?10-?2015 20:54 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Onderwerp: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US As my mail to cctech dod'nt came through, here a mail only to the cctalk list. sorry if it becomes a double post. Hi All, I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise non/half functional T100 in the usa. they need the machines for a movie in the New York area. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 24 15:19:55 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:19:55 +0100 Subject: Olivetti M24 Bus Converter Card Message-ID: <008901d10e99$58cab5c0$0a602140$@ntlworld.com> I have an M24 which does not have the bus converter card P1050). There are a couple of these cards on ebay in the USA, which makes it expensive for me, and I am not sure which of the two would be best anyway. There is another bus converter available in the UK, but it is PC1076 (IF 622), which my web searches suggest make it for the M280 (which was a 286 machine). Does anyone have any idea if this latter card might work in my M24? It certainly looks to be physically compatible. Regards Rob From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Oct 24 15:36:12 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:36:12 -0700 Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) In-Reply-To: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <025501d10e9b$9fd919a0$df8b4ce0$@computer.org> The MiniScribe brick story is told at: http://chmhdd.wikifoundry.com/page/MiniScribe+files+bancruptcy The apocryphal tale is that when the Maxtor President visited his then recently acquired MiniScribe facilities he was shown buildings 1,2, 3, and 5. When asked what happened to building 4 he was told, "we shipped it brick by brick." Tom -----Original Message----- From: Noel Chiappa [mailto:jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) > From: Pierre Gebhardt > Haha, I guess you're alluding to the massive scam with the bricks, > Miniscribe did back them to pretend stocks full of disk drives... Never heard the story. Can someone oblige? > BTW, are there any other similar stories from the disk drive buisiness > back in these days? I don't know about disk drives, but there are lot of scam stories. One minicomputer manufacturer (sorry, don't remember who, but I think it was on the 128 belt) was shipping empty cabinets, in order to meet projections (I dunno if they couldn't afford the parts to build the guts, or if their manufacturing division couldn't build the stuff, or what). Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 24 16:22:42 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:22:42 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562BF6A2.8010106@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/15 11:40 AM, tony duell wrote: > Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head > preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom. > Silicon Systems was a common supplier in the 80s to mid-90s, which is why their Storage Products data books have been scanned. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 16:47:11 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:47:11 -0500 Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter Message-ID: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is connected via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. It works great, but the ends of the standoff bolts without nuts come together where the VGA cable meets the adapter; that is to say, the VGA cable's nuts are on the far side of the shell from its male end, and the adapter's nuts are on the far side of the shell from its female end. I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem correct? -- Eric Christopherson From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 16:58:30 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:58:30 -0500 Subject: Save a poor printing terminal Message-ID: This unfortunate creature has seen ill-storage and a slight mouse infestation and bears the rusty scars of time and moisture. But with your kindness and patience, it will have the chance to bound joyfully through fields of Greenbar once again, bringing joy and the printed word/ASCII art to all who meet it. Called LA120 by those that bred it, DECwriter III by those who loved it, you can call it yours for the mere effort of picking it up from the Chicago suburbs. Shipping will probably be impractical and, sadly, its time is short as my shelter needs the space for other lost souls. The man and his truck from the glue factory are already hovering along my road. Heart-rending photos available upon request. -j From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 24 18:17:28 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 19:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter In-Reply-To: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> References: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201510242317.TAA21393@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is > connected via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. [...] > I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from > disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I > want some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this > seem correct? "Probably." I've seen at least two different threadings on similar parts (metal standoffs for peecee motherboards, male threads on one end and female on the other). But it seems likely to me that the thread for any particular connector will be rather better standardized, and one DE15 I just checked (actually, the DE15 end of a 13W3/DE15 adapter) is indeed 4-40 - or close enough to fool me when tested with a 4-40 nut. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 18:36:42 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:36:42 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562C160A.5080400@gmail.com> On 10/24/15 11:40 AM, tony duell wrote: >> That's pretty much what I figured. I took a closer look at one of the >> other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and >> there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to >> the head assembly. I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed, >> though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very >> careful disassembly in a very clean environment. (And a nonexistent >> service manual.) > I have had (in other devices) dry joints on SMD devices on flexiprints. But > resoldering them inside the HDA is not going to be easy... > > Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head > preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom. > > On older/larger drives (the sort of thing I am more likely to work on) the ICs were > often DIL packages on a normal PCB. Often you couldn't replace them without opening > the HDA :-(. Micropolis had a nice feature on the 1200 series (8" hard drives) though -- > the PCB was mounted over a hole in the HDA casing (obviously with a gasket). The heads > were wired to the inside face of the PCB, the cable to the logic board plugged into the > outside face. The ICs were plugged into turned pin sockets on the outside. So on that > drive you could field-replace them. They were custom chips, though. And of course you > couldn't replace soldered parts, like the decoupling capacitors as the solder joints formed > part of the HDA seal... > > -tony > > > > - Josh > > So, a quick update here (and some idiocy on my part): I (carefully) opened up the Symbolics' XT-2190 and took a quick look; the rubber bumper that Joseph mentioned (and it is rubber in this one -- my other opened drive has a plastic bumper) has started crumbling/turning to goo. Portions of it had already chipped off. This bumper acts as both the start and end stop for the head assembly. I removed the remainder of it (it's held on with a circlip) and spun the drive up (to see if they had just been stuck to the bumper) to the same effect as before -- the heads recal and then it just buzzes. Then I gave the heads a nudge just to see what would happen, and... they ran off the end of the platters (no stop anymore) and well, I feel kinda stupid. Sigh. To add insult to injury, one of the heads is loose (the glue holding it on dried up and it fell off after the impact of running off the platter) so this drive is basically toast. At least now I can kind of see how one takes this drive apart to remove the spindle; if I get overly ambitious and find a working sacrificial XT2190 to start with I could almost see myself doing a spindle replacement surgery to see if I can recover the data. I think I'll stick to solid state devices for awhile. - Josh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 24 19:56:04 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:56:04 +0100 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: <562BCB68.2090705@flippers.com> Message-ID: On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson" wrote: > On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed >> thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for >> everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon. >> >> Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48 >> programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL >> read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to >> google and USENET: >> >> 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) >> 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down) >> 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end >> (2332 Vpp) >> >> Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24 >> don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me >> "continuity error on pin 20" >> >> Have I goofed somewhere? >> >> Cheers, >> > You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read. > > There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332 > in a 2732 socket. > > 2332 > > Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24) > Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21) > > If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes: > > 2332 > > Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded > end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the > 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected. > 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should > work though. > > I don't think you will need the diodes though. > > John :-#)# Hi John and others, Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18 missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this: 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band) 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting things the correct way. Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm guessing my PROMs are toast. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 24 20:01:24 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: <562ACB8C.2080604@pico-systems.com> References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> <562ACB8C.2080604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/23/2015 04:32 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> >>> I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have >>> sold over 300 controller-interfaces. >>> >> A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle Bone Black.... >> > Yes, my latest product is the CRAMPS board for machinekit and BBB. I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how to refit a 2000 model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill. The controller it has now is parallel port based and the control software is DOS only. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 20:19:54 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:19:54 -0400 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 References: Message-ID: Probably a silly question, but I assume that if you're using a 28-pin socket you are inserting it aligned at the end *opposite* pin 1, with pin numbers offset by 2 (ie. 2x32 pin1 is 2764/256 pin 3, etc.)? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:56 PM Subject: Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 > > > > On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson" > wrote: > >> On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video >>> RAM and dodgy sockets removed >>> thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I >>> have new turned pin sockets for >>> everything I've removed which I'll be fitting >>> this afternoon. >>> >>> Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump >>> them using my Pinmaster48 >>> programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read >>> 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL >>> read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an >>> adapter as found thanks to >>> google and USENET: >>> >>> 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) >>> 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power >>> Down) >>> 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes >>> with banding at the 2332 end >>> (2332 Vpp) >>> >>> Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned >>> correctly so pins 20 and 24 >>> don't interfere with each other, however the >>> pinmaster continually gives me >>> "continuity error on pin 20" >>> >>> Have I goofed somewhere? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >> You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - >> Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read. >> >> There are only two modifications needed >> normally for reading a 2532/2332 >> in a 2732 socket. >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24) >> Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21) >> >> If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use >> diodes: >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the >> other to 2732 pin 18. Banded >> end to these pins, and you will also need a >> pullup resistor on the >> 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes >> high when not selected. >> 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box >> between 1K and 4K7 should >> work though. >> >> I don't think you will need the diodes though. >> >> John :-#)# > > Hi John and others, > > Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired > 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer > complained about pin 18 > missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired > like this: > > 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) > 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 > (band) > 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) > 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > > Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired > something upside-down which > isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no > problem so I'm mounting > things the correct way. > > Further digging into available eproms that the > programmer can read reveals > it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 > which the datasheet tells me has > the same pinout as the 2332. I still get > "reverse insertion error" so I'm > guessing my PROMs are toast. > > Cheers, > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest > private home computer > collection? > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 20:54:41 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:54:41 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals Message-ID: For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built terminals; switch it on and It Works. And both DEC and IBM made 'real' terminals in a 'small pizza box' form factor, using a separate standard VGA monitor as a display; one could use those with a small LCD screen and achieve a similar result, and I might do just that - can anyone remember the model numbers of IBM 3270 and 5250 terminals that were built this way? But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs. Preferably colour! Thanks Mike From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 24 20:57:23 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:57:23 -0500 Subject: Retro Reproduction. In-Reply-To: References: <20151023165911.927D318C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <562A6F57.8010405@btinternet.com> <562A8115.7080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <562A9D4E.7090801@pico-systems.com> <562ACB8C.2080604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562C3703.2050401@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2015 08:01 PM, geneb wrote: > > I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how > to refit a 2000 model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill. The > controller it has now is parallel port based and the > control software is DOS only. > Well, this is a stepper-driven machine? Are the stepper drives in good condition, and are they good units? Stepper drives have come a long way since 2000. Gecko stepper drives are pretty amazing. You can run stepper drivers from the parallel port, but the performance may be less that optimum. I make a board that generates steps in hardware that gives more accurate step timing at higher speeds, and also allows closed-loop operation if you fit encoders to the machine. This is all supported by the LinuxCNC program, which is pretty fantastic. I use it here in my shop to run a Bridgeport mill with my own servo drives. I also have a desktop mill that I built mostly for taking to shows that uses my controllers and drives. You can check out the LinuxCNC.org web site, and see what others are doing in the retrofit area. Jon From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 20:59:38 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:59:38 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) Message-ID: I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read errors will occur. On Chuck was quoted as (actually, correct me if I'm wrong -- it's a little hard to be sure this was Chuck's words) as saying "Usually, they're just fine, with the error rate approximately the same, whether or not 2D or HD media was used." Just before that, he said "I think that the overall quality of DSHD 3.5" media isn't what it used to be, so that might contribute to the general impression that 3.5" HD diskettes used as 2D aren't reliable. I have problems enough finding reliable 3.5" DSHD floppies used as such." Chuck et al., what's your feeling now, both on the overall reliability of HD disks in DD drives, and on whether it depends on how recently the disks were produced? Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD, -OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser? -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 24 21:14:36 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done > so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and > others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks > can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that > writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read > errors will occur. That was certainly the case with 5.25", but THAT was a difference between 300 Oersted and 600 Oersted. WAY OFF. But, with 3.5" disks, the difference is between 600 Oersted and 720? Oersted. THAT is close enough. For BEST results, I think that it would be better to use the right ones, but unlike 5.25" disks, with 3.5", you can get away with it. > Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said > it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD, > -OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck > retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an > electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube > through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to > put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser? Probably a very good idea. Some Windoze machines will check for existing format before formatting, and be somewhat uncooperative about reformatting as a different density. The one time that it is critically important to bulk-erase or use virgin disks is when writing 48tpi disks in a 96tpi drive. When a 96tpi drive RE-writes a 48tpi disk, as 48tpi, it can not clear the edges of the track completely. Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I thought that AOHell had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply us forever! From sales at elecplus.com Sat Oct 24 22:10:50 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:10:50 -0500 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built terminals; switch it on and It Works. And both DEC and IBM made 'real' terminals in a 'small pizza box' form factor, using a separate standard VGA monitor as a display; one could use those with a small LCD screen and achieve a similar result, and I might do just that - can anyone remember the model numbers of IBM 3270 and 5250 terminals that were built this way? But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs. Preferably colour! Thanks Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 24 22:25:20 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Cindy Croxton wrote: > How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for > the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ And the Atari Portfolio runs a version of DR-DOS. And the Poqet ran MS-DOS. Both have serial ports available. Both will run DOS software, including most of the undocumented calls, such as TSRs. Either can function as a terminal. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 24 22:34:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:34:32 -0700 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for > the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display. Is that small enough? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 24 22:38:47 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> Message-ID: The Epson RC-20 wrist watch (30 years ago) had serial port, RAM, ROM, and sort of a Z80. But, nobody ever brought up CP/M on it. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 22:39:11 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:39:11 -0200 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> Message-ID: 16 char x 1 line is small enough? :) Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis" escreveu: > On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > >> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for >> the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ >> > > I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display. Is that small enough? > > --Chuck > > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 22:44:55 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:44:55 -0700 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> <562C4DC8.5010804@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > 16 char x 1 line is small enough? :) > Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis" escreveu: > > > On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > > >> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for > >> the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ > >> > > > > I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display. Is that small > enough? > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Set the baud rate really low and tie an LED to the xmit line. -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 24 22:48:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:48:37 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562C5115.1090306@sydex.com> On 10/24/2015 06:59 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done > so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and > others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks > can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that > writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read > errors will occur. My opinions on Herb's retrotechnology site still hold--with one addition. You can sometimes get 3.5" HD disks that have been used, but now refuse to accept a format by first performing a DC erase. That is, get a very strong rare-earth magnet, and moving in a helical path (i.e. circular, starting close to the disc, slowing moving away), perform an erase pass. Following with an AC erase can sometime inject new life into the disk. I've tried this several times and it does seem to work. As Fred mentioned, the "write them now, but not read them later" case applies to HD 5.25" disks written in DD mode. But even that's not a sure thing. I've handled batches of DD-written 3M HD floppies that were more than 20 years old and they read fine. I've never tried DD writing onto ED floppies. I suspect that it won't work at all. The coating characteristics are just too different. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Oct 24 22:49:49 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:49:49 -0400 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals Message-ID: yes we have one line LED letter terminals used for Deaf and hard of Hearing. we will buy more of them too. do you have any of them? ASCII or BAUDOT either for our Deaf Telecom diaplay. Drop me a line offlist thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 10/24/2015 8:44:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, charles.unix.pro at gmail.com writes: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > 16 char x 1 line is small enough? :) > Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis" escreveu: > > > On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > > > >> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for > >> the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ > >> > > > > I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display. Is that small > enough? > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Set the baud rate really low and tie an LED to the xmit line. -- Charles From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 23:06:04 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:06:04 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done >> so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and >> others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks >> can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that >> writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later >> read >> errors will occur. >> > > That was certainly the case with 5.25", but THAT was a difference between > 300 Oersted and 600 Oersted. WAY OFF. > > But, with 3.5" disks, the difference is between 600 Oersted and 720? > Oersted. THAT is close enough. > > For BEST results, I think that it would be better to use the right ones, > but unlike 5.25" disks, with 3.5", you can get away with it. > > Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said >> it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD, >> -OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck >> retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an >> electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube >> through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to >> put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser? >> > > Probably a very good idea. > OK. I just wanted to ask, in case running a floppy through that contraption would actually mess up its magnetization so badly that it couldn't then be used. > > Some Windoze machines will check for existing format before formatting, > and be somewhat uncooperative about reformatting as a different density. > > The one time that it is critically important to bulk-erase or use virgin > disks is when writing 48tpi disks in a 96tpi drive. When a 96tpi drive > RE-writes a 48tpi disk, as 48tpi, it can not clear the edges of the track > completely. > > > Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? > I thought that AOHell had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply > us forever! > I had to laugh at that. Another list member recently told me that AOL disks are the ones he's had the most success with recently. I don't know how many of them were 720KB, though. In any case, I think I only started getting AOL dis(c|k)s in the CD-ROM era, unfortunately. But anyway, it does look like DD disks are more expensive; that, coupled with the fact that a lot of HD disks in the wild are going to be newer, makes me want to buy some HD ones instead. But that second part might be more of a bad thing, if it's true that floppy QA went downhill later on. On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My opinions on Herb's retrotechnology site still hold--with one addition. > Thanks for that. > > You can sometimes get 3.5" HD disks that have been used, but now refuse to > accept a format by first performing a DC erase. That is, get a very strong > rare-earth magnet, and moving in a helical path (i.e. circular, starting > close to the disc, slowing moving away), perform an erase pass. Following > with an AC erase can sometime inject new life into the disk. I've tried > this several times and it does seem to work. > Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC erase would be insufficient? -- Eric Christopherson From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 23:49:26 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:49:26 -0600 Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? Message-ID: What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642? I don't yet have any uninstalled extractors on hand, but I'm going to need some for a project. Looking at PCBs with extractors already installed has not made it obvious to me how to install them. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 00:01:42 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:01:42 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> On 10/24/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. > How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned > count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC > erase would be insufficient? The AC unit I use is a VHS tape bulk eraser. It's pretty strong and has a limited working time--maybe 2-3 minutes before the thermal cutout interrupts. Let it cool for a few minutes and get back to work. How strong a DC erase? I suppose that one of these magnets could well lift a 100 lbs. Scary strong. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 00:14:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:14:06 -0600 Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) In-Reply-To: <025501d10e9b$9fd919a0$df8b4ce0$@computer.org> References: <20151023214930.DAC7818C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <025501d10e9b$9fd919a0$df8b4ce0$@computer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > The MiniScribe brick story is told at: > http://chmhdd.wikifoundry.com/page/MiniScribe+files+bancruptcy > > The apocryphal tale is that when the Maxtor President visited his then > recently acquired MiniScribe facilities he was shown buildings 1,2, 3, and > 5. When asked what happened to building 4 he was told, "we shipped it brick > by brick." The actual story is almost as good. Employees broke into the auditor's files and changed the numbers in an attempt to conceal the "inventory hole". Miniscribe CFO Patrick J. Schleibaum was convicted based in part on an invoice showing that the bricks were purchased from Colorado Brick Company. Quentin T. Wiles, the chairman and CEO (and "turnaround specialist"), was also convicted and spent 2 1/2 years in the Big House. http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/osg/briefs/1996/01/01/w961430w.txt http://openjurist.org/102/f3d/1043/united-states-v-t-wiles https://www.sec.gov/about/annual_report/1991.pdf http://articles.latimes.com/1994-07-12/business/fi-14736_1_sherman-oaks http://www.sbrower.com/Steven%20Brower%20-%20Recent%20Developments%20In%20Computer%20Performance%20Litigation.htm One possible lesson to be learned: always pay cash when buying materials for inventory fraud. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 00:20:30 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:20:30 -0700 Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB > extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642? There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a pair of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly to get it started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet. Make sure that the body of the extractor is supported. To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch works just fine without mangling things. YMMV, --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 00:35:03 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:35:03 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals > > For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. 5" might be a bit small even for me! The 9" version looks pretty close to that kind of thing I have in mind except: 1. The 9" unit is just the display; the terminal logic itself is another box, just as big. 2. It's a 4700 series system, which AFAIK uses its own strange protocols; it's not 3270 or VT100 compatible or ANSI serial. But on the right lines... thanks! Small computers running DOS aren't what I had in mind, neither are single line displays :-) This is along the right lines, although it's a TCP/IP network device without serial or 3270 ports for direct connection, and it doesn't have a screen: http://www.axel.com/uk/id_M75.html The 3488 was the IBM 'terminal in a pizza box I was thinking of: http://store.flagshiptech.com/ibm-infowindow-ii-3488-v-twinax-terminal-base-t-conn-122-keyboard-no-monitor/ But's it's Twinax; can anyone remember the number of the coax 3270 equivalent?? My *ideal* device would be something like a 10" or 12" LCD panel with terminal logic built-in: power connector, 3270 or serial port, and a PS/2 or USB keyboard port. A terminal you can hang on the wall. Cable it up, hang it on the wall, away you go... if I can find something along those lines I'll take a dozen :) Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 00:52:33 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:52:33 -0600 Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? In-Reply-To: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> References: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a pair > of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly to get it > started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet. Make sure that the > body of the extractor is supported. Sounds easy. I'll give it a try. Thanks! I found an insertion tool from B & M Machine Co. for $58.90: http://bmmachine.com/pintool/product but if your technique works for me, I'd just as soon not spend the $58.90. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 25 00:54:09 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:54:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? In-Reply-To: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> References: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB >> extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642? > > There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a pair > of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly to get it > started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet. Make sure that the > body of the extractor is supported. > > To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch works just fine without > mangling things. I have a small pair of specialty pliers which were made to install roll pins in relays which work equally well for this. Another tool I've used in the past is a really small c-clamp. I don't know if anyone else has tried them yet, but I recently discovered that Richco/Essentra also makes card ejectors/extractors. http://us.essentracomponents.com/shop/en-US/essentracomponentsus/pcb---electronics-hardware-44556--1/card-guides---pullers-75066--1/card-ejectors--extractors---pullers-132571--1 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 01:01:34 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 02:01:34 -0400 Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? References: <562C669E.8020809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <48205DE67F494F80B14A131D56B5390C@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2015 1:20 AM Subject: Re: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? > On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> What tool does one use to install the metal pin >> into a plastic PCB >> extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone >> 8642? > > There are expensive tools for the purpose, but > I've always just used a pair of long-nose pliers > to compress the end of the spring pin slightly > to get it started, then drive it home with a > soft-faced mallet. Make sure that the body of > the extractor is supported. > > To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch > works just fine without mangling things. > > YMMV, > --Chuck A small vise always works for me. m From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 01:54:50 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:54:50 -0500 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2015 8:54 PM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece > terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs. > Preferably colour! > First thing that comes to mind are the Informer terminals. They had them in small CRT versions and the more rare orange plasma display with the folding lid. The plasma one that I have seen was a 3270 emulation, complete with the PF keys. I know it had serial...not sure about coax. I believe I have seen the CRT ones with coax options. Both monochrome displays. J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 25 01:56:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 02:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?) Message-ID: <20151025065640.C1E2118C107@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > One possible lesson to be learned: always pay cash when buying > materials for inventory fraud. Not to mention 'don't fire people who've been helping you commit fraud' (the whole thing unravelled when they 'down-sized' some people in the shipping department who'd been helping with the fraud - they promptly reported it). A couple of other URL's someone sent me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniScribe https://blog.gillware.com/data-recovery-case/the-first-hard-drive-to-brick Thanks! Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 02:21:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 07:21:51 +0000 Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter In-Reply-To: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> References: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from > disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want > some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem > correct? The normal thread for the jackscrews on a D connector is indeed 4-40 UNC. That's 'UNified Coarse', diameter size 4 with 40 threads per inch. If you have the male screws in the connector then what you need are some coupling nuts, threaded spacers, or whatever the suppplier calls them with that thread. Some PC-builder shops sell them. I've been known to take a bit of hexagonal rod and drill/tap it, but unless you have the tools for that it is easier to buy them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 02:27:00 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 07:27:00 +0000 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: References: <562BCB68.2090705@flippers.com>, Message-ID: > Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals > it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has > the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm > guessing my PROMs are toast. As others have said, normally when putting a smaller chip into a programmer with a bigger socket you keep the 'bottom row' of pins -- including ground -- in the same position for all chips. A look at the pinouts will show why. But as you can read 2716s that's not the problem. Often 'reverse insertion error' means the chip drew the wrong supply current -- often far too much. Which does suggest your ROMs are dead :-( -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Oct 25 02:38:40 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:38:40 +0100 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151025073839.GA6118@Update.UU.SE> I think you want a Minec 1000. but it's a very rare beast. It talks 3270 and VT100. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zachetus/535850501/ /P On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 02:54:41PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. > > Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards > and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer > configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's > Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built > terminals; switch it on and It Works. > > And both DEC and IBM made 'real' terminals in a 'small pizza box' form > factor, using a separate standard VGA monitor as a display; one could > use those with a small LCD screen and achieve a similar result, and I > might do just that - can anyone remember the model numbers of IBM 3270 > and 5250 terminals that were built this way? > > But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece > terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs. > Preferably colour! > > Thanks > > Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 02:36:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 07:36:11 +0000 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. > > Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards > and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer > configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's > Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built > terminals; switch it on and It Works. Three things that I use for small async RS232 terminals.... 1) (The one I use all the time). HP palmtops. I actually prefer the 95LX as the 40 column display is easier to read in poor light when working on a rack. But the 100LX and 200LX are good too. Yes, it is a computer, but it has a built-in serial port (just need a cable) and terminal software in ROM. The good points are that it will capture the downloaded data and you can kermit it to another machine if you so wish. The standard cable is wired to plug directly into a PC and is thus a DCE, but I got a second cable, cut off the moulded D connector and wired it to a DB25 plug as a DTE. 2) One of my RS232 testers has a terminal mode on a 32*4 LCD. Just a dumb terminal, though, but it will do odd baud rates and 5-bit ITA2 (incorrectly called Baudot) which can be useful 3) You will not find one, but Trend Data Systems did a version of the Opal telex terminal that was a very good VT100 clone (even down to the setup mode). A clamshell design with a fold-down LCD and a full-size keyboard. Runs off 12V (I am missing the original PSU for mine) and the power connector (A variant of the UK telephone plug) is almost as hard to find as the machine. -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Oct 25 03:39:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 09:39:31 +0100 Subject: The Internet & our hobby In-Reply-To: References: <20151024145641.75AAF18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562C9543.7090909@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-24 19:53, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years >> old... >> > Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40. > > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> Good point! {Does a little math in his head...} 43 years, that gives >> us 1972. >> The OP was clearly thinking of the ARPANET. Which as I have mentioned, >> was >> _very_ different from TCP/IP, inside. > > OR, he made a simple trivial typo or calculation typo, and meant 33, > instead of 43. That would place us in 1982, which is about right for > TCP/IP. But then pretty much wrong as to when the Internet came about. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 03:45:00 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:45:00 -0700 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > This is along the right lines, although it's a TCP/IP network device > without serial or 3270 ports for direct connection, and it doesn't > have a screen: > > http://www.axel.com/uk/id_M75.html > I have a couple of AX3000 M75. I'm pretty sure you can connect directly to a host through the RJ45 serial ports. It's been a while since I've used them and I forget the details of the setup / configuration screens. I also have a similar ESPRIT 350C http://www.sourceforterminals.com/newpdf/350C.pdf These were reasonably cheap when I picked them up on eBay a while ago. From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat Oct 24 20:18:44 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:18:44 +1100 Subject: Commodore and Atari In-Reply-To: <0dd001d10df5$b1c6f610$1554e230$@com> References: <0dd001d10df5$b1c6f610$1554e230$@com> Message-ID: <004301d10ec3$17be8af0$473ba0d0$@internode.on.net> Where are you located ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Saturday, 24 October 2015 11:48 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Commodore and Atari Is anyone interested in a Vic 20, Atari 800XL, or an Amiga? The Amiga appears to be missing a couple of things. No AC adapters for any of them. Complete key caps, no severe yellowing, no way to test. The Amiga resembles this one: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/amiga500.jpg Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Sat Oct 24 20:21:50 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:21:50 -0500 Subject: Commodore and Atari In-Reply-To: <004301d10ec3$17be8af0$473ba0d0$@internode.on.net> References: <0dd001d10df5$b1c6f610$1554e230$@com> <004301d10ec3$17be8af0$473ba0d0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <0e5d01d10ec3$868dda30$93a98e90$@com> Texas -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Parker Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Commodore and Atari Where are you located ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Saturday, 24 October 2015 11:48 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Commodore and Atari Is anyone interested in a Vic 20, Atari 800XL, or an Amiga? The Amiga appears to be missing a couple of things. No AC adapters for any of them. Complete key caps, no severe yellowing, no way to test. The Amiga resembles this one: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/amiga500.jpg Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 24 16:24:11 2015 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:24:11 +0200 Subject: Ping! Message-ID: Jorg, >> I forgot to ask for your private email on VCFB, so I use this public channel. Ah -- beg your pardon! >>Can you sell me a PiDP8, so I can port my Blinkenlight Api Server to the >> platform of the upcoming 11/70? Absolutely not. That would be ethically impossible. I can, however, offer you a free PiDP if you can take care of the shipping cost :) >> I'd like to have it as preassembled as possible, 'cause my schedule is very tight. I'll send you the comfy kit, meaning no fussing with the switch bar! Shipping cost is CHF 24/EUR21, just paypal to oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com and I'll send it to you. But - before you do, consider that I'm currently working on a new version of the PiDP with (hopefully) nice replica 8/I switches. So if you're not too much in a hurry, you may want to wait two months and get the cosmetic upgrade! >> BTW, my photos of VCFB are here: ... you remember me shooting into your face while the street car rumbled behind your back? Cool! Thanks for the pictures link :) Kind regards, Oscar. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 03:50:07 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 06:50:07 -0200 Subject: Ping! References: Message-ID: Seens the tcp route was misguided :) PS: Pong from Brazil! :D --- Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique) Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Vermeulen" To: Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 7:24 PM Subject: Ping! Jorg, >> I forgot to ask for your private email on VCFB, so I use this public >> channel. Ah -- beg your pardon! >>Can you sell me a PiDP8, so I can port my Blinkenlight Api Server to the >> platform of the upcoming 11/70? Absolutely not. That would be ethically impossible. I can, however, offer you a free PiDP if you can take care of the shipping cost :) >> I'd like to have it as preassembled as possible, 'cause my schedule is >> very tight. I'll send you the comfy kit, meaning no fussing with the switch bar! Shipping cost is CHF 24/EUR21, just paypal to oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com and I'll send it to you. But - before you do, consider that I'm currently working on a new version of the PiDP with (hopefully) nice replica 8/I switches. So if you're not too much in a hurry, you may want to wait two months and get the cosmetic upgrade! >> BTW, my photos of VCFB are here: ... you remember me shooting into your face while the street car rumbled behind your back? Cool! Thanks for the pictures link :) Kind regards, Oscar. = From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 04:18:55 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:18:55 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 8:36 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >> For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for >> terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and >> coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. >> >> Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards >> and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer >> configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's >> Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built >> terminals; switch it on and It Works. > > Three things that I use for small async RS232 terminals.... > > 1) (The one I use all the time). HP palmtops. I actually prefer the 95LX as the 40 > column display is easier to read in poor light when working on a rack. But the > 100LX and 200LX are good too. Yes, it is a computer, but it has a built-in serial > port (just need a cable) and terminal software in ROM. The good points are that > it will capture the downloaded data and you can kermit it to another machine if > you so wish. The standard cable is wired to plug directly into a PC and is thus a > DCE, but I got a second cable, cut off the moulded D connector and wired it to > a DB25 plug as a DTE. Oh those look pretty good; I love the terminal emulator in ROM; doesn't even need an OS, switch it on and it works; that's one of the things I'm after. Shame about the rather nasty looking monochrome LCD though... I'm more interested in colour, especially for 3270 use, and as a hardware ANSI serial console for Hercules... Ahhh or I could make my own... useful gizmo here... http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=25 Keep the ideas coming folks! Thanks! http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 04:35:41 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 09:35:41 -0000 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01d10f08$849a8850$8dcf98f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 25 October 2015 09:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Oddball question: really small terminals > > On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 8:36 PM, tony duell > wrote: > >> > >> For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > >> terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > >> coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. > >> > >> Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards Having read you want Color I would see if you can get a NeoWare thin client with TN3270 support. My only gripe is that I have not found a way to get one of my Nokia 3270 keyboards to fully work with them. Dave From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 25 05:04:42 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 06:04:42 -0400 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals Message-ID: <15055b.56e2542d.435e033a@aol.com> We used to used a TRS-80 model 100 as a terminal too. sometimes I would put a 50 ft cable on it and hook it to the hp2000 or the hp3000! Ed# From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 05:39:26 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 06:39:26 -0400 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> This list seems to me to be populated with "build your own" types, so make your own degausser. Decades ago I repaired the tape eraser at the TV station I worked at. Once I saw how it was built I built my own. Take a transformer (something about 100 watt or more) pull the laminations out (the hard part) line up all the 'E's put them back. Discard the 'I's. It will buzz like mad and get hot in a minute but produce a very strong AC magnetic field. Keep it away from your shadow mask color TV! Joe > On Oct 25, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/24/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > >> Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. >> How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned >> count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC >> erase would be insufficient? > > The AC unit I use is a VHS tape bulk eraser. It's pretty strong and has a limited working time--maybe 2-3 minutes before the thermal cutout interrupts. Let it cool for a few minutes and get back to work. > > How strong a DC erase? I suppose that one of these magnets could well lift a 100 lbs. Scary strong. > > --Chuck > From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 05:55:25 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 06:55:25 -0400 Subject: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57FAE1AE-F6FE-4967-A3BB-AF2DC3F73AC2@gmail.com> I use slip joint pliers. Just push the pin through. It's harder getting them out;-) Joe > On Oct 25, 2015, at 12:49 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB > extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642? > > I don't yet have any uninstalled extractors on hand, but I'm going to > need some for a project. Looking at PCBs with extractors already > installed has not made it obvious to me how to install them. From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 06:07:36 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 07:07:36 -0400 Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter In-Reply-To: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> References: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: 4-40 is the correct size. I would remove the jack screws on one side and replace with sockets. If you use standoffs the screws May bottom out too soon. Joe > On Oct 24, 2015, at 5:47 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is connected > via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. It works great, but the > ends of the standoff bolts without nuts come together where the VGA > cable meets the adapter; that is to say, the VGA cable's nuts are on the > far side of the shell from its male end, and the adapter's nuts are on > the far side of the shell from its female end. > > I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from > disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want > some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem > correct? > > -- > Eric Christopherson From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 06:56:45 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 06:56:45 -0500 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562C160A.5080400@gmail.com> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> <562C160A.5080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2015 6:36 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > > To add insult to injury, one of the heads is loose (the glue holding it on dried up and it fell off after the impact of running off the platter) so this drive is basically toast. At least now I can kind of see how one takes this drive apart to remove the spindle; if I get overly ambitious and find a working sacrificial XT2190 to start with I could almost see myself doing a spindle replacement surgery to see if I can recover the data. > I've successfully glued heads back on and have cleaned platters of goo before. I had a full height 40 MB CDC drive from a PC AT if I recall that wouldn't start reliably, but once it was spinning, worked fine. I took it apart in a clean room and had the same issue as you with heads falling off. I reattached them with clear fingernail polish for fear that superglue would leave nasty cyanoacrylate fumes everywhere. The drive worked fine for several months after the repair and a low level format. It suffered the same problem again and I opted not to fix it a second time. It took me a while to figure out an optimal way to put the head back together. I ended up separating the heads with the big ends of zip ties which happened to be just the right height. Once I got everything mounted back in, I just pushed it over the platters, causing the zip tie pieces to be pushed out, and the heads to fall back over the platters. Ahh, found the album (which I think I've shared before): http://imgur.com/a/LbfZb Kyle From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 25 06:08:30 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:08:30 +0100 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/10/2015 02:19, "Mike Stein" wrote: > Probably a silly question, but I assume that if > you're using a 28-pin socket you are inserting it > aligned at the end *opposite* pin 1, with pin > numbers offset by 2 (ie. 2x32 pin1 is 2764/256 pin > 3, etc.)? > Hi Mike, Yes :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 25 06:17:42 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:17:42 +0100 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25/10/2015 08:27, "tony duell" wrote: >> Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals >> it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has >> the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm >> guessing my PROMs are toast. > > As others have said, normally when putting a smaller chip into a programmer > with a bigger socket you keep the 'bottom row' of pins -- including ground -- > in the same position for all chips. A look at the pinouts will show why. But > as > you can read 2716s that's not the problem. > > Often 'reverse insertion error' means the chip drew the wrong supply current > -- > often far too much. Which does suggest your ROMs are dead :-( Ah, OK, that makes sense. Bad ROMs and low-quality sockets are the chief reasons for dying PETs so it doesn't surprise me. I've found some 2532s pretty locally so hopefully they'll be with me on Tuesday and I can test yesterday's soldering. Wish there was a more local hobby/electronic shop here - I miss being in a city but only for that reason :) Given that there are schematics for PET testing boards like the PETVET I'd like to build my own. Nearest component place is M*plins and they're not what they used to be. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 08:07:35 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 09:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I thought that AOHell > had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply us forever! Indeed, but the quality of those diskettes was dreadful. -- From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 08:31:37 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 02:31:37 +1300 Subject: Speaking of switches... Altair? Message-ID: I started playing with something I haven't touched in ages; my Altair 8800. So far so good... https://www.facebook.com/tmfdmike/videos/10207777256179225/?l=8958556876818218770 One thing: I really need three or four new switches to replace bent or broken ones: the lower ones with the large metal toggles for run/stop examine/deposit etc. Anyone got any or can suggest a source? Original preferred obviously, precise replica OK. I almost never play with S-100 era equipment so I'm pretty sketchy on Altairs! Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 08:26:00 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:26:00 -0000 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01bd01d10f28$b1726df0$145749d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven > Hirsch > Sent: 25 October 2015 13:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) > > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I thought that AOHell > > had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply us forever! > > Indeed, but the quality of those diskettes was dreadful. > > -- Someone had boxes of these they were willing to sell recently and there was no take up. I would say they are being trashed because no one has space and have moved to floppy emulators. Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 25 09:19:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:19:11 +0000 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: [HP Palmtops, 95LX etc] > Oh those look pretty good; I love the terminal emulator in ROM; > doesn't even need an OS, switch it on and it works; that's one of the > things I'm after. Shame about the rather nasty looking monochrome LCD Actually, there is an OS -- MS-DOS -- and it's in ROM too. Along with a text editor, address book thingy, HP financial calculator (19B-II a-like, it does have a 4 level stack RPN mode) and Lotus 1-2-3. I've never needed to use an application other than the ones in ROM on these machines. The terminal emulator has a VT100 mode (which seems to work reasonably well). And plain text, Xmodem and kermit file transfers. I've used it to download a file from one machine, then carry the palmtop to a different room and upload said file to a different machine if it would be impractical to run a cable. It is certainly a machine worth considering even if it doesn't meet all your requirements at the moment... -tony From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 09:29:15 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:29:15 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 3:19 AM, tony duell wrote: > [HP Palmtops, 95LX etc] >> Oh those look pretty good; I love the terminal emulator in ROM; >> doesn't even need an OS, switch it on and it works; that's one of the >> things I'm after. Shame about the rather nasty looking monochrome LCD > > Actually, there is an OS -- MS-DOS -- and it's in ROM too. Along with a text > editor, address book thingy, HP financial calculator (19B-II a-like, it does have a > 4 level stack RPN mode) and Lotus 1-2-3. I've never needed to use an application > other than the ones in ROM on these machines. > > The terminal emulator has a VT100 mode (which seems to work reasonably > well). And plain text, Xmodem and kermit file transfers. I've used it to download > a file from one machine, then carry the palmtop to a different room and upload > said file to a different machine if it would be impractical to run a cable. > > It is certainly a machine worth considering even if it doesn't meet all your > requirements at the moment... > > -tony These are the best bet I've seen for serial terminals so far: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=25 Just stick one to the back of a small LCD screen and I'm in business. But on closer inspection the site shows "out of stock". I'll email; maybe they'll do another batch. Or does anyone know someone who has stock? And I'm still left with the need for something for 3270... Useful thread though; all kinds of interesting things coming out of the woodwork :-) Mike From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 25 10:29:36 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 10:29:36 -0500 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2015 08:54 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. > > I had a thing that was apparently used in France and maybe Canada for telephone directory lookup and similar uses. I believe it was called a Minitel. It had a TINY CRT screen, maybe 5 x 7". It used a standard 40-pin microprocessor and other standard parts. I junked mine because it would randomly reset every minute or so, and I didn't really have a use for it. I think mine was smaller than the one in the Wikipedia article, but it did look similar to that. There are some on eBay, but they are all from France and Belgium. Interface was pure serial RS-232. Jon From katelists at trouts.org Sun Oct 25 10:02:35 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:02:35 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00006d6be7da$1be99e97$66d513df$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Sun Oct 25 10:02:35 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:02:35 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00006d6be7da$1be99e97$66d513df$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Sun Oct 25 10:02:34 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:02:34 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000f311f961$c75f3ed2$d9c3ccf3$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From katelists at trouts.org Sun Oct 25 10:02:52 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:02:52 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <000003e7fa84$04c93791$30f5609a$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 25 10:42:17 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:42:17 -0400 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals Message-ID: <1537f2.3b337e09.435e5259@aol.com> I wonder if - http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=25 can be hacked to do Baudot at 60 wpm? Ed# In a message dated 10/25/2015 7:29:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tmfdmike at gmail.com writes: These are the best bet I've seen for serial terminals so far: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=25 Just stick one to the back of a small LCD screen and I'm in business. But on closer inspection the site shows "out of stock". I'll email; maybe they'll do another batch. Or does anyone know someone who has stock? And I'm still left with the need for something for 3270... Useful thread though; all kinds of interesting things coming out of the woodwork :-) Mike From katelists at trouts.org Sun Oct 25 10:03:20 2015 From: katelists at trouts.org (katelists at trouts.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:03:20 -0700 Subject: Fw: new message Message-ID: <00008dc687da$288acbb0$431bd0b4$@trouts.org> Hey! New message, please read katelists at trouts.org From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 25 10:59:33 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 Message-ID: <20151025155933.D22CA18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > I'm in the drawing stage for 11/45 11/55 11/70 (common blank size) I think the 11/40 uses that same blank, too (with less holes than the other ones, as it doesn't have the two rotary switches); dunno about the location of the power switch, someone who has an 11/40 will have to send you measurements. > given a scan and measurements .. I can have a go at most types of panel. The ones I personally would like (after the 11/45 :-) are the indicator panels for the RF11, RK11-C and RP11. Guy will be using the RF11 panels too, not sure if he has started on producing them yet. > Now we need a ... switches source Let me see if the C+K ones I have ordered fit. If so, if I buy a large group directly from C+K, we might be able to get the price down to something reasonable, which would save us the hassle of two different kinds of toggles/actuators (one for the original panels, one for reproductions). Noel From jrr at flippers.com Sun Oct 25 12:19:14 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 10:19:14 -0700 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562D0F12.8060109@flippers.com> On 10/24/2015 5:56 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson" wrote: > >> On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed >>> thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for >>> everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon. >>> >>> Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48 >>> programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL >>> read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to >>> google and USENET: >>> >>> 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) >>> 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down) >>> 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end >>> (2332 Vpp) >>> >>> Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24 >>> don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me >>> "continuity error on pin 20" >>> >>> Have I goofed somewhere? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >> You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read. >> >> There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332 >> in a 2732 socket. >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24) >> Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21) >> >> If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes: >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded >> end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the >> 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected. >> 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should >> work though. >> >> I don't think you will need the diodes though. >> >> John :-#)# > Hi John and others, > > Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18 > missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this: > > 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) > 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band) > 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) > 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > > Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which > isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting > things the correct way. > > Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals > it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has > the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm > guessing my PROMs are toast. > > Cheers, > Reverse insertion may just mean you are drawing more current on the /OE and /CS than expected. How about this - go back to my original suggestion (no diodes) and this time add a small resistor to the 2732 pin 18 and Vcc to act as a load. Try larger resistors if the reader still complains - and try reading with NO 2332 in the reader (all FFs). Once you can trick the reader into reading air as highs then try your 2332 again with the working resistor values for the unused select. Oh, and what reader are you using? Did you check with the manufacturer (or archives somewhere - archive.org?) to see if they have a trick for reading 2532/2332s? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jrr at flippers.com Sun Oct 25 12:21:09 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 10:21:09 -0700 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562D0F85.6040500@flippers.com> On 10/24/2015 5:56 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson" wrote: > >> On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed >>> thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for >>> everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon. >>> >>> Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48 >>> programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL >>> read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to >>> google and USENET: >>> >>> 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11) >>> 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down) >>> 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end >>> (2332 Vpp) >>> >>> Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24 >>> don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me >>> "continuity error on pin 20" >>> >>> Have I goofed somewhere? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >> You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read. >> >> There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332 >> in a 2732 socket. >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24) >> Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21) >> >> If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes: >> >> 2332 >> >> Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded >> end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the >> 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected. >> 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should >> work though. >> >> I don't think you will need the diodes though. >> >> John :-#)# > Hi John and others, > > Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18 > missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this: > > 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) > 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band) > 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) > 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) > > Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which > isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting > things the correct way. > > Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals > it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has > the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm > guessing my PROMs are toast. > > Cheers, > Oh, and here is what someone did in 2011 to read 2332s: http://www.madrigaldesign.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104 John ;-#)# From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 25 13:44:36 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:44:36 -0600 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/25/2015 7:07 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I thought that AOHell >> had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply us forever! > > Indeed, but the quality of those diskettes was dreadful. More the Service provided from the disk.? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 14:03:31 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >>> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I thought that AOHell >>> had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply us forever! >> Indeed, but the quality of those diskettes was dreadful. On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, ben wrote: > More the Service provided from the disk.? Blaming the medium for the content? Or, . . . if you were putting something like that onto disks, would you spring the money for high quality ones? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 14:27:13 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: > > > For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for > > > terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and > > > coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. >> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/ On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, Mike Ross wrote: > 5" might be a bit small even for me! The 9" version looks pretty close > to that kind of thing I have in mind except: 5" was not the smallest, and there were several, even luggable, machines that used it (earliest Osborn, Otrona, Elcompco, etc.) > Small computers running DOS aren't what I had in mind, Can you explain what your objection is? In what qualitative or quantitative way is a DOS computer running terminal software fundamentally different from a terminal that did not also have general purpose capabilities? A DOS machine can be setup to run the program on startup - in the case of HP95, Poqet, and portfolio, the memory cards gave you close to the same speed to boot and run the software as a dedicated machine. > neither are single line displays :-) OK. BUT, it would have helped if you were to say what you are doing and what you WANT, instead of just rejecting systems that are not what you want. We'd waste less of your time. "physically really small" means different things to different people. It could mean that a pocket computer is the upper limit (I have used a CCTV viewfinder as a monitor), or it could mean that you want ADM3A (iMac prototype?) V IBM 3270 terminals. What does "really small" mean to YOU? > My *ideal* device would be something like a 10" or 12" LCD panel with > terminal logic built-in: power connector, 3270 or serial port, and a > PS/2 or USB keyboard port. A terminal you can hang on the wall. Cable > it up, hang it on the wall, away you go... if I can find something > along those lines I'll take a dozen :) OK, that's much closer to a description! Howzbout: Connectbot running on an Android tablet? Do you want the keyboard to remain attached? (unfold a Sony Vaio, or any small laptop) Or only use the keyboard for setup and maintenance/reconfiguration? (back to tablet) What are your keyboard requirements? IBM "M", Palm thumbpad, "virtual keyboard" with touchscreen? Your desire for COLOR throws a serious crimp in many/most dedicated terminals, and points more towards "thin client" or dedicating a general purpose machine. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 25 14:31:12 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:31:12 -0600 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/25/2015 1:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Blaming the medium for the content? > Or, . . . > if you were putting something like that onto disks, > would you spring the money for high quality ones? > I suspect the reason they failed was not service but a) PC's had games b) Ma Bell wanted a arm and a leg for long distance connections. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 14:40:41 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL (Was: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D In-Reply-To: <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: [AOL] On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, ben wrote: > I suspect the reason they failed was not service > but a) PC's had games b) Ma Bell wanted a arm and a leg > for long distance connections. Some of their early efforts to COMPETE AGAINST the internet helped establish outfits like Netcom, and were a boost to ISPs. Perhaps Ed (still using AOL) would have some insight into what caused their decline. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 25 14:56:00 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:56:00 -0500 Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) Message-ID: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> I received the email below, thought I'd pass it on... ----- Dear J West, I am writing to inform you about an article I have created about Quantum Link, an online service that was available in the US & Canada from 1985 to 1994. https://www.tinytickle.co.uk/quantum-link/ Quantum Link, originally available on the Commodore 64 computer, offered and pioneered many of the features we are used to having on the modern internet, such as e-mail, instant messagaing, shopping and chat rooms - to name a few. Quantum Link also featured the ground breaking game Habitat by Lucasfilm's, the first graphical massively multiplayer online game. https://www.tinytickle.co.uk/quantum-link/#mmo Q-Link was also made available on Apple & IBM compatible PCs from 1988. I was wondering if you could add a link from your website (classiccmp.org) to the piece to help spread knowledge of the influential, but now largely forgotten, Quantum Link service. The article has proven popular on social media, and I thought that it would be of interest to your readers. Any mention you could make on social media would also be fantastic. Any corrections, feedback or comments you may have on the piece would be greatly appreciated, either by email or via the comments form on the webpage itself. Thanks for your time. Kind Regards David Wilding From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 15:05:39 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:05:39 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015, Joseph Lang wrote: > This list seems to me to be populated with "build your own" types, so make your own degausser. > Decades ago I repaired the tape eraser at the TV station I worked at. Once I saw how it was built I built my own. Take a transformer (something about 100 watt or more) pull the laminations out (the hard part) line up all the 'E's put them back. Discard the 'I's. > It will buzz like mad and get hot in a minute but produce a very strong AC magnetic field. > Keep it away from your shadow mask color TV! > > Joe > > > On Oct 25, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 10/24/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > > > > >> Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. > >> How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned > >> count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC > >> erase would be insufficient? I guess my last question (would doing just an AC erase, by whatever means, always be insufficient) got lost. > > > > The AC unit I use is a VHS tape bulk eraser. It's pretty strong and has a limited working time--maybe 2-3 minutes before the thermal cutout interrupts. Let it cool for a few minutes and get back to work. > > > > How strong a DC erase? I suppose that one of these magnets could well lift a 100 lbs. Scary strong. > > > > --Chuck > > -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 15:07:52 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:07:52 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015, ben wrote: > On 10/25/2015 1:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > >Blaming the medium for the content? > >Or, . . . > >if you were putting something like that onto disks, > >would you spring the money for high quality ones? > > > I suspect the reason they failed was not service > but a) PC's had games b) Ma Bell wanted a arm and a leg > for long distance connections. > Ben. Actually, in many areas of the US, they had local dialup numbers that connected to their service through Tymnet and/or Telenet, so long distance didn't apply. Maybe in rural areas those access points were still long distance, though. But AOL itself had per-minute premium rates for quite a while. -- Eric Christopherson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 10:07:11 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 11:07:11 -0400 Subject: How to revive my E450 Message-ID: <562CF01F.1090208@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, I have an Sun E450 with 4 cpus installed that ran fine for a few years as a Solaris 10 box with ZFS boot. About 4 years ago I mothballed it and pulled the two boot drives out to store (ZFS was in a mirror configuration). This weekend I decided to see if it would come up again. Predictably, the NVRAM is dead. "The IDPROM contents are invalid" And it's forgotten its mfg-options. (I found info by Googling that this should be set to 49 for E450.) I'll have to do something about that. More surprising to me than the NVRAM failure though was that it produces the same result when I try to boot from either drive: ok boot disk Boot device: /pci at 1f,4000/scsi at 3/disk at 0,0 File and args: Bad magic number in disk label Can't open disk label package Can't open boot device It seems unlikely to me that both disks have died. Does anyone have any other ideas? Could it be related to the NVRAM failure? Here's what I haven't tried yet: - I haven't checked disk jumpers - I haven't tried to mount the disks and check them on another machine. This could be a bit of work, but I can get around to it. It's a long time since I set up this Solaris/ZFS install. Maybe I've forgotten some quirk of booting ZFS on old SPARC. Any suggestions welcome. (also posted to Sun Rescue list) --Toby From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 15:12:15 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:12:15 -0500 Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) In-Reply-To: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> References: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015, Jay West wrote: > I received the email below, thought I'd pass it on... > ----- > Dear J West, > > I am writing to inform you about an article I have created about Quantum > Link, an online service that was available in the US & Canada from 1985 to > 1994. > > https://www.tinytickle.co.uk/quantum-link/ > > Quantum Link, originally available on the Commodore 64 computer, offered and > pioneered many of the features we are used to having on the modern internet, > such as e-mail, instant messagaing, shopping and chat rooms - to name a few. > > Quantum Link also featured the ground breaking game Habitat by Lucasfilm's, > the first graphical massively multiplayer online game. > https://www.tinytickle.co.uk/quantum-link/#mmo > > Q-Link was also made available on Apple & IBM compatible PCs from 1988. > > I was wondering if you could add a link from your website (classiccmp.org) > to the piece to help spread knowledge of the influential, but now largely > forgotten, Quantum Link service. The article has proven popular on social > media, and I thought that it would be of interest to your readers. Any > mention you could make on social media would also be fantastic. > > Any corrections, feedback or comments you may have on the piece would be > greatly appreciated, either by email or via the comments form on the webpage > itself. > > Thanks for your time. > Kind Regards > David Wilding > > Perhaps it's out of the (very nice) web page's scope, but I don't see a mention of the modern-day partial recreation of QuantumLink that some Commodore enthusiasts use today. -- Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Oct 25 15:19:43 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:19:43 -0400 Subject: AOL (Was: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D Message-ID: <157736.15a75452.435e935f@aol.com> AOL was a good model for general consumers. also remember many people used AOL before the www was all the rage so... you stay with something you have alreay learned.and AOL was accessible anywhere in the world for the most part whereas podunk mom and pop ISPs had local phone numbers. This was important if I was say going to UK or France for more than a few days as dialing back to a podunk in phoenix would not only be damn expensive but the quality of connection thru the long distance would no doubt be horrible... Aside from our AOL account we had a podunk that had two brothers that seemed as stupid as Daryl and his other brother Daryl in the Bob Newhart show that ran it. Eccch! The game changer for local residents though was the cable companies and telecoms offering Internet service... same bill as their telephone or cable tv easy to sign up... and remember at first the hi speed connects were though the telco for us and we had AOL but after I quit travels just had a minimal AOL account... why? lots of people I have known for eons can still contact me there. Why do I still use it? because my friends know to reach me there. Why will I always have an aol account forever? well until all my friends pass on or I pass on it is a connection medium! Ed # Uptime seemed to be better on also than some of the podunks In a message dated 10/25/2015 12:40:46 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: [AOL] On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, ben wrote: > I suspect the reason they failed was not service > but a) PC's had games b) Ma Bell wanted a arm and a leg > for long distance connections. Some of their early efforts to COMPETE AGAINST the internet helped establish outfits like Netcom, and were a boost to ISPs. Perhaps Ed (still using AOL) would have some insight into what caused their decline. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 25 15:24:59 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:24:59 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Bus Converter Card Message-ID: <010801d10f63$38642080$a92c6180$@ntlworld.com> Anyone have any ideas? If not I guess the UK card is cheap enough to take a chance anyway. Regards Rob From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: 24 October 2015 21:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) Subject: Olivetti M24 Bus Converter Card I have an M24 which does not have the bus converter card P1050). There are a couple of these cards on ebay in the USA, which makes it expensive for me, and I am not sure which of the two would be best anyway. There is another bus converter available in the UK, but it is PC1076 (IF 622), which my web searches suggest make it for the M280 (which was a 286 machine). Does anyone have any idea if this latter card might work in my M24? It certainly looks to be physically compatible. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 15:36:06 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Actually, in many areas of the US, they had local dialup numbers that > connected to their service through Tymnet and/or Telenet, so long > distance didn't apply. Maybe in rural areas those access points were > still long distance, though. But AOL itself had per-minute premium rates > for quite a while. 3 years ago, when I stayed at my mother's house taking care of her, it took me a month to find out that she did not have unlimited local calling! Adding DSL on the phone account reduced the phone bill a lot. That house is now mine. AT&T DSL here sucks. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 15:37:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:37:56 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562D3DA4.7020908@sydex.com> On 10/25/2015 01:07 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Actually, in many areas of the US, they had local dialup numbers > that connected to their service through Tymnet and/or Telenet, so > long distance didn't apply. Maybe in rural areas those access points > were still long distance, though. But AOL itself had per-minute > premium rates for quite a while. You speak as if dial-up access to the 'Net no longer exists: http://help.netzero.net/nzhelp/support-home-page/service-help/internet-access/dialup/about-dialup/ Maybe NZ has discontinued it, but I've always kept a list of the numbers in case of emergency. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Oct 25 15:48:16 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:48:16 -0700 Subject: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas? In-Reply-To: <562BF6A2.8010106@bitsavers.org> References: <5629DBE6.4010008@gmail.com> <562A5B81.1000904@bitsavers.org> <562AAA16.1080407@bitsavers.org> <562BBCBD.8020003@gmail.com> <562BF6A2.8010106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <998676EC-C8C1-410F-80F7-7F4DC7DE0521@nf6x.net> > On Oct 24, 2015, at 14:22, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/24/15 11:40 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head >> preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom. >> > > Silicon Systems was a common supplier in the 80s to mid-90s, which is why their > Storage Products data books have been scanned. Just thought I'd mention that my first "real" job was at Silicon Systems. Started as an applications engineer for motor drivers, then moved into chip design for interface controllers. I don't think I have any old databooks any more. Glad to hear that they're being preserved. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 16:03:13 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:03:13 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562D2314.1090703@jetnet.ab.ca> <562D2E00.8070700@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151025200752.GK8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562D4391.5040506@sydex.com> On 10/25/2015 01:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > 3 years ago, when I stayed at my mother's house taking care of her, > it took me a month to find out that she did not have unlimited local > calling! Adding DSL on the phone account reduced the phone bill a > lot. > > That house is now mine. AT&T DSL here sucks. I'm finally (after years of 1.5M DSL service) going to get some decent speeds--or so I'm told. When the Qwest wanted to expand service in my neighborhood, they asked to purchase a bit of my land (I didn't even know it was mine) for a "temple of boxes". I said okay, as long as DSL would be offered. Qwest was a good as their word--this was in 2004. Before that, it was POTS. All of the sudden, late last spring, contractor trucks showed up and started stringing fiber and 200 pair copper on the poles here (current service is buried, not on poles). They've spent much of the summer, stringing cable and punching wires at the terminal. I've been told that I'll be receiving 20Mbps service and a new modem by the 11th of next month. My monthly fees won't change. So why is CenturyLink doing this? Is it a matter of improving service? From the techs working at the temple, it turns out that it's nothing like that. It seems that all that buried cable is slowly migrating down the hillside to the extent that it's going to need replacement. That's miles of copper--and probably not cheap (I got to see what an 1800 pair cable looks like). So fiber feeds the temple and the 200 pair copper is for folks down the road (about 2.5 miles). So maybe, if the weather be good, I'll be getting some worthwhile DSL service before Thanksgiving. That would be nice. --Chuck From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 16:28:58 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:28:58 -0500 Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter In-Reply-To: References: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > 4-40 is the correct size. I would remove the jack screws on one side and > replace with sockets. If you use standoffs the screws May bottom out too > soon. > Could you explain that in more detail? I'm not aware of "sockets" except as the tools that are used for turning hex nuts; is there a kind of socket that actually gets installed on a bolt? And I'm not sure what you mean about bottoming out. You just mean there wouldn't be enough length of thread to fit both male ends securely? > > Joe > > On Oct 24, 2015, at 5:47 PM, Eric Christopherson < > echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is connected > > via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. It works great, but the > > ends of the standoff bolts without nuts come together where the VGA > > cable meets the adapter; that is to say, the VGA cable's nuts are on the > > far side of the shell from its male end, and the adapter's nuts are on > > the far side of the shell from its female end. > > > > I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from > > disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want > > some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem > > correct? > > > > -- > > Eric Christopherson > -- Eric Christopherson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 16:28:36 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:28:36 -0400 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again Message-ID: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. Any clues? Thanks in advance --Toby (not having a good classic computing week) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Oct 25 16:37:38 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:37:38 +0000 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: <20151025155933.D22CA18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151025155933.D22CA18C0C4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562D4BA2.1090001@btinternet.com> Hi Noel That sounds good. Just refresh my memory. C+K are the what I would call PDP8 type? I think the PDP-8 type are a basic slide switch with a U shaped bracket to hold the pivot pins on the lever. One type is is a biased type and the other just a change over. So far everything is based on a 465mm x 210mm (18.25" x 8.25") perspex (plexiglass) blank. In an attempt to get ahead of the requests I have been trawling the web for pictures of anything DEC that has a front panel. It would seem you are Mr Switches and I am Panel Man. !! Regards Rod On 25/10/15 15:59, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > I'm in the drawing stage for 11/45 11/55 11/70 (common blank size) > > I think the 11/40 uses that same blank, too (with less holes than the other > ones, as it doesn't have the two rotary switches); dunno about the location of > the power switch, someone who has an 11/40 will have to send you measurements. > > > given a scan and measurements .. I can have a go at most types of panel. > > The ones I personally would like (after the 11/45 :-) are the indicator panels > for the RF11, RK11-C and RP11. Guy will be using the RF11 panels too, not sure > if he has started on producing them yet. > > > Now we need a ... switches source > > Let me see if the C+K ones I have ordered fit. If so, if I buy a large group > directly from C+K, we might be able to get the price down to something > reasonable, which would save us the hassle of two different kinds of > toggles/actuators (one for the original panels, one for reproductions). > > Noel From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 17:27:28 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:27:28 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/24/2015 08:54 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for >> terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and >> coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. >> >> > I had a thing that was apparently used in France and maybe Canada for > telephone directory lookup and similar uses. I believe it was called a > Minitel. It had a TINY CRT screen, maybe 5 x 7". It used a standard 40-pin > microprocessor and other standard parts. I junked mine because it would > randomly reset every minute or so, and I didn't really have a use for it. I > think mine was smaller than the one in the Wikipedia article, but it did > look similar to that. There are some on eBay, but they are all from France > and Belgium. Interface was pure serial RS-232. A pull-out keyboard in the base? I have one too. Would be perfect if it worked, and I had half a dozen of them! Mike From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 25 17:33:23 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 Message-ID: <20151025223323.B99C518C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > Just refresh my memory. C+K are the what I would call PDP8 type? No, the C+K are the lever toggle switches, as used in the -11/05/40/45/70. Only the /20 uses the slide switches like the -8. > In an attempt to get ahead of the requests I have been trawling the web > for pictures of anything DEC that has a front panel. Well, if you're ready for more, I'll start sending you the info for the UNIBUS disk controller indicator panels (RF11, RK11-C, RP11-C), then! :-) > It would seem you are Mr Switches and I am Panel Man. !! You're definitely panels; I'm probably only going to do the toggle switches (if the ones I've found are the right ones). I think someone else has the slide switches under control? BTW, the terminology for the various display parts is a bit confusing, so let me lay out what I gather to be the official DEC terminology. For the "indicator panels" - which is the term for the complete assembly (for the RF11, RK11-C and RP11-C), the flat sheet of plastic with all the light captions silk-screened onto it on it seems to be the "inlay" (q.v. RF11 controller engineering drawings, pg. 187 of the PDF). The "bezel" is the thin white rim that goes around the 'inlay'. The formal name for the light shield (the piece of fibre-board with all the holes drilled in it) is 'Benelex' (Benelex is "general use, word fibre board"). Alas, it's no longer available, so any new light shields will have to use something else. For the PDP-11 front consoles, BTW, the terms are "bezel", "console panel" (the piece that is called the 'inlay' on the indicator panels), and "console PC board" (all this per the 11/45, /50, /55 System Maintainence Manual, EK-11045-MM-007, pp. 131-132 of the PDF). Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 17:38:00 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:38:00 -0400 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter > configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so > have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) > > However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine > powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo > and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. > I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? Any suggestions welcome. --Toby > Any clues? > > Thanks in advance > > --Toby > (not having a good classic computing week) > From ethan at 757.org Sun Oct 25 18:11:15 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) In-Reply-To: <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> References: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps it's out of the (very nice) web page's scope, but I don't see a > mention of the modern-day partial recreation of QuantumLink that some > Commodore enthusiasts use today. > Eric Christopherson There is a television show running on television now called "Halt and catch fire" and I think they are basing it around Quantum Link as part of the story. It's not historical but a period drama or something. -- Ethan O'Toole From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 18:21:28 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:21:28 -0700 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I would replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply before going further. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 25, 2015, at 15:38, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Hi, >> >> After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter >> configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so >> have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) >> >> However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine >> powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo >> and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. > > > I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? > > Any suggestions welcome. > > --Toby > >> Any clues? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> --Toby >> (not having a good classic computing week) > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 25 18:37:46 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 23:37:46 +0000 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: <562D0F12.8060109@flippers.com> Message-ID: On 25/10/2015 17:19, "John Robertson" wrote: >> Hi John and others, >> >> Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >> leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18 >> missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this: >> >> 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) >> 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band) >> 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) >> 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >> >> Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which >> isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting >> things the correct way. >> >> Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals >> it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has >> the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm >> guessing my PROMs are toast. >> >> Cheers, >> > > Reverse insertion may just mean you are drawing more current on the /OE > and /CS than expected. > > How about this - go back to my original suggestion (no diodes) and this > time add a small resistor to the 2732 pin 18 and Vcc to act as a load. > Try larger resistors if the reader still complains - and try reading > with NO 2332 in the reader (all FFs). Once you can trick the reader into > reading air as highs then try your 2332 again with the working resistor > values for the unused select. > > Oh, and what reader are you using? Did you check with the manufacturer > (or archives somewhere - archive.org?) to see if they have a trick for > reading 2532/2332s? It's an MQP Pinmaster48, a 90s-era programmer. As it happens tonight I got round to dumping some other EPROMs I had for someone else and one of them was an SGS2532 which read fine as an MCM2532 so I know the machine works with that age of chip. All my CBM ones give the same results so I'm assuming they're dead. Thinking about it there may be some 2532s at work so I can try burning a PET tester. I saw the madrigaldesign adapter on Friday but after re-re-remaking the one I was working on yesterday it was beginning to look a bit rough around the edges :) Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 18:38:45 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > There is a television show running on television now called "Halt and catch > fire" and I think they are basing it around Quantum Link as part of the > story. It's not historical but a period drama or something. and Compaq? I liked the part about IBM suing them for disassembly of the BIOS! and the hardware approach to how to read the content of the BIOS. (on a functioning machine with DEBUG.COM) Admittedly, it was more than a month after the announcement of the 5150 before I could buy a copy of the Technical Reference Manual, which had source code of the BIOS. You can learn a lot about the details of history from it. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 18:37:15 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:37:15 -0400 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-25 7:21 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > I would replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply before going further. > Well, the problem disappears with the standard setup. You still think caps could be at issue with the splitter setup? What's your detailed thinking? --Toby > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 25, 2015, at 15:38, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter >>> configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so >>> have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) >>> >>> However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine >>> powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo >>> and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. >> >> >> I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? >> >> Any suggestions welcome. >> >> --Toby >> >>> Any clues? >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> --Toby >>> (not having a good classic computing week) >> > From tonypf11 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 19:34:34 2015 From: tonypf11 at gmail.com (Tony Pflum) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:34:34 -0400 Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: Originally I thought it was basing it on Comnet or Compuserve but after reading these comments, I now think Quantum Link makes more sense. They are doing a good job portraying the various personalities, especially the disfunctional ones. On Oct 25, 2015 7:38 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Sun, 25 Oct 2015, ethan at 757.org wrote: > >> There is a television show running on television now called "Halt and >> catch fire" and I think they are basing it around Quantum Link as part of >> the story. It's not historical but a period drama or something. >> > > and Compaq? > > I liked the part about IBM suing them for disassembly of the BIOS! > and the hardware approach to how to read the content of the BIOS. > (on a functioning machine with DEBUG.COM) > Admittedly, it was more than a month after the announcement of the 5150 > before I could buy a copy of the Technical Reference Manual, which had > source code of the BIOS. > > > You can learn a lot about the details of history from it. > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 19:42:53 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:42:53 -0700 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> No- if it works with the standard display, the supply is fine. Now that that's clear, I recall some cube supplies would do this without a load for a display- I used to test them by triggering the power-on pin, and seem to remember this behavior occurring if I didn't have a big-ass resistor attached across the pins that normally supplied power to the CRT. Try getting a dummy load on there, the circuitry you have may not be putting enough load on the lines that usually run the CRT to keep the supply in a steady state. Cheers, - Ian Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 25, 2015, at 16:37, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2015-10-25 7:21 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> I would replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply before going further. > > Well, the problem disappears with the standard setup. You still think caps could be at issue with the splitter setup? What's your detailed thinking? > > --Toby > >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Oct 25, 2015, at 15:38, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter >>>> configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so >>>> have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) >>>> >>>> However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine >>>> powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo >>>> and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. >>> >>> >>> I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? >>> >>> Any suggestions welcome. >>> >>> --Toby >>> >>>> Any clues? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> --Toby >>>> (not having a good classic computing week) > From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 19:49:42 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:49:42 -0700 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6DA45DB2-2BDC-426A-94D7-4A63A4EB1ECF@gmail.com> I should make clear that for what I'm saying below, I was NOT testing supplies on their own, but was indeed testing a complete cube with the logic and hard drives hooked up- just with no MegaPixel display attached. And the point stands- Without a reasonable dummy load for the display itself, some cubes wouldn't stay on. This was about 12 years ago and I was in middle school so I didn't take notes like I do now. Ergo I don't recall more specifics. Just that I used two sizable ceramic resistors that hung off the display connector to mitigate this behavior. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 25, 2015, at 17:42, Ian Finder wrote: > > No- if it works with the standard display, the supply is fine. > > Now that that's clear, I recall some cube supplies would do this without a load for a display- I used to test them by triggering the power-on pin, and seem to remember this behavior occurring if I didn't have a big-ass resistor attached across the pins that normally supplied power to the CRT. > > Try getting a dummy load on there, the circuitry you have may not be putting enough load on the lines that usually run the CRT to keep the supply in a steady state. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Oct 25, 2015, at 16:37, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-10-25 7:21 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >>> I would replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply before going further. >> >> Well, the problem disappears with the standard setup. You still think caps could be at issue with the splitter setup? What's your detailed thinking? >> >> --Toby >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Oct 25, 2015, at 15:38, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter >>>>> configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so >>>>> have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) >>>>> >>>>> However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine >>>>> powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo >>>>> and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. >>>> >>>> >>>> I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? >>>> >>>> Any suggestions welcome. >>>> >>>> --Toby >>>> >>>>> Any clues? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> --Toby >>>>> (not having a good classic computing week) >> From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 25 19:54:42 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:54:42 -0500 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562D79D2.4020207@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2015 05:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > A pull-out keyboard in the base? I have one too. Would be perfect if > it worked, and I had half a dozen of them! > > No, mine did NOT have a pull-out or fold-down kbd, it was all one piece, like a micro-miniaturized ADM3 or similar terminal. Possibly it WAS the same as the picture on the Wikipedia article, I couldn't tell the scale from that pic. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 19:56:16 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:56:16 -0400 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-25 8:42 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > No- if it works with the standard display, the supply is fine. > > Now that that's clear, I recall some cube supplies would do this without a load for a display- I used to test them by triggering the power-on pin, and seem to remember this behavior occurring if I didn't have a big-ass resistor attached across the pins that normally supplied power to the CRT. > > Try getting a dummy load on there, the circuitry you have may not be putting enough load on the lines that usually run the CRT to keep the supply in a steady state. > Even though I'm an electronics noob, that seems pretty logical. Can you spell out what kind of resistor I'd need? Is it the 20 Ohm 20W between pin 12 (-12V) and GND that is mentioned here: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1374&sid=80e5f0626eeb6a10eed066e21b61808d Is 20W the right rating? Thanks! --Toby > Cheers, > > - Ian > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 25, 2015, at 16:37, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> On 2015-10-25 7:21 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >>> I would replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply before going further. >> >> Well, the problem disappears with the standard setup. You still think caps could be at issue with the splitter setup? What's your detailed thinking? >> >> --Toby >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Oct 25, 2015, at 15:38, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 2015-10-25 5:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> After a few years I wanted to try my Cube with the soundbox/VGA splitter >>>>> configuration for the first time. (I have the fading phosphor N4000A so >>>>> have been keen to have an alternate video solution.) >>>>> >>>>> However, all is not well. Using the keyboard power button, the machine >>>>> powers on for a couple of seconds, just long enough to see a NeXT logo >>>>> and grey desktop on the VGA (yay!) but then powers itself off again. >>>> >>>> >>>> I did the obvious thing and tested it with a standard monitor and cable and everything is okay. So the problem must exist with the splitter/soundbox setup. Soft power signals? >>>> >>>> Any suggestions welcome. >>>> >>>> --Toby >>>> >>>>> Any clues? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> --Toby >>>>> (not having a good classic computing week) >> > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 20:32:12 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:32:12 -0400 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562D79D2.4020207@pico-systems.com> References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> <562D79D2.4020207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2015 8:54 PM, "Jon Elson" wrote: > > On 10/25/2015 05:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> >> A pull-out keyboard in the base? I have one too. Would be perfect if >> it worked, and I had half a dozen of them! >> >> > No, mine did NOT have a pull-out or fold-down kbd, it was all one piece, like a micro-miniaturized ADM3 or similar terminal. Possibly it WAS the same as the picture on the Wikipedia article, I couldn't tell the scale from that pic. > > Jon Something like the iXO handheld terminal? http://vintagecomputer.net/iXO/iXO_telecomputing-system.jpg Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 25 20:48:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <0e5e01d10ed2$c097a620$41c6f260$@com> Message-ID: > "physically really small" means different things to different people. It 45 years ago, a "mini-computer" was considered to be "really small". So small that they gave it a special name to refer to how tiny it was. Sony tried to call their Vaio "ultra-portable", which was rather laughable when held up next to an OQO. From seefriek at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 21:06:29 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:06:29 -0400 Subject: The Internet & our hobby Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis >Early internet systems--I'm not sure where to draw the line between >Usenet, ARPANet and Internet exactly often employed nothing more than >POTS networking, using nothing more than UUCP or similar methods. We were quite certain our Datakit X.25 network was on the Internet (late-80s/early-90s AT&T). Email/Netnews/File transfer all worked, though the addressing gyrations that were occasionally required were fairly demented. When we did NSFnet at Gatech, there was always some tweak to take into account some "Internet" peer someone desperately needed to talk to that was really a gateway into some baroque non-IP network. It was a more diverse time, with BITNET, DECNet & other OSI-ish protos, and SNA/APPN common. I became quite adept at sendmail ".cf" files. Good times. >I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. >People were more polite back then--at least in their >written communication. You apparently ran on a very different early Internet than I did. KJ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 21:35:05 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:35:05 -0400 Subject: HP2100 top card connectors Message-ID: On the HP 2100 series machines (and possibly 1000s?) - those top of the card connectors - are they the 2 x 24 contact on 0.156" centers types? -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 25 21:46:26 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:46:26 -0400 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-25 8:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-10-25 8:42 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> No- if it works with the standard display, the supply is fine. >> >> Now that that's clear, I recall some cube supplies would do this >> without a load for a display- I used to test them by triggering the >> power-on pin, and seem to remember this behavior occurring if I didn't >> have a big-ass resistor attached across the pins that normally >> supplied power to the CRT. >> >> Try getting a dummy load on there, the circuitry you have may not be >> putting enough load on the lines that usually run the CRT to keep the >> supply in a steady state. >> > > > Even though I'm an electronics noob, that seems pretty logical. Can you > spell out what kind of resistor I'd need? > > Is it the 20 Ohm 20W between pin 12 (-12V) and GND that is mentioned here: > > http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1374&sid=80e5f0626eeb6a10eed066e21b61808d > > > Is 20W the right rating? > > Thanks! > --Toby > I got a really helpful response from Rob Blessin, from whom I bought the splitter cable, along the same lines. My supply must be the 152 type that requires a load. Boiling down all the info so far, it seems that a 20 Ohm resistor across -12V and GND (maybe 12V and GND would work equally well?) would dissipate 7.2W, which seems enough to keep the supply running (that other link talked about a 5W load, so this seems a good margin). Now, 7.2W is more than one resistor in say a DB-19 shell could safely dissipate, so I'm maybe looking at some kind of ambiently cooled board. Rob provided these links: Here: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3736 and version 1.0 megaload here: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3616&highlight=load+board So I'm wondering what kind of thermal design is both easy and safe. A single 10W resistor exposed to the air? Or should I spread it over a few resistors on a little board that might have a DB-19 male at the Cube end. Just noob brainstorming here. --Toby From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 22:09:07 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:09:07 -0700 Subject: HP2100 top card connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > On the HP 2100 series machines (and possibly 1000s?) - those top of > the card connectors - are they the 2 x 24 contact on 0.156" centers > types? > > -- > Will I have a couple of EDAC 305-048-500-202 connectors which I believe are compatible. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/123/44_305-315-35520series20new-194266.pdf From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Oct 25 22:37:24 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:37:24 +0000 Subject: Retro Reproduction 2 In-Reply-To: <20151025223323.B99C518C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151025223323.B99C518C109@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <562D9FF4.9060201@btinternet.com> Hello Noel Yes Console and if my memory serves me well (which it usually doesn't) programmers console. Who's doing the PDP-8 switches? Rod On 25/10/15 22:33, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Rod Smallwood > > > Just refresh my memory. C+K are the what I would call PDP8 type? > > No, the C+K are the lever toggle switches, as used in the -11/05/40/45/70. > Only the /20 uses the slide switches like the -8. > > > In an attempt to get ahead of the requests I have been trawling the web > > for pictures of anything DEC that has a front panel. > > Well, if you're ready for more, I'll start sending you the info for the > UNIBUS disk controller indicator panels (RF11, RK11-C, RP11-C), then! :-) > > > It would seem you are Mr Switches and I am Panel Man. !! > > You're definitely panels; I'm probably only going to do the toggle switches > (if the ones I've found are the right ones). I think someone else has the > slide switches under control? > > > BTW, the terminology for the various display parts is a bit confusing, so let > me lay out what I gather to be the official DEC terminology. > > For the "indicator panels" - which is the term for the complete assembly (for > the RF11, RK11-C and RP11-C), the flat sheet of plastic with all the light > captions silk-screened onto it on it seems to be the "inlay" (q.v. RF11 > controller engineering drawings, pg. 187 of the PDF). The "bezel" is the thin > white rim that goes around the 'inlay'. The formal name for the light shield > (the piece of fibre-board with all the holes drilled in it) is 'Benelex' > (Benelex is "general use, word fibre board"). Alas, it's no longer available, > so any new light shields will have to use something else. > > For the PDP-11 front consoles, BTW, the terms are "bezel", "console panel" > (the piece that is called the 'inlay' on the indicator panels), and "console > PC board" (all this per the 11/45, /50, /55 System Maintainence Manual, > EK-11045-MM-007, pp. 131-132 of the PDF). > > Noel From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 22:43:17 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 16:43:17 +1300 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 3:19 AM, tony duell wrote: > [HP Palmtops, 95LX etc] >> Oh those look pretty good; I love the terminal emulator in ROM; >> doesn't even need an OS, switch it on and it works; that's one of the >> things I'm after. Shame about the rather nasty looking monochrome LCD > > Actually, there is an OS -- MS-DOS -- and it's in ROM too. Along with a text > editor, address book thingy, HP financial calculator (19B-II a-like, it does have a > 4 level stack RPN mode) and Lotus 1-2-3. I've never needed to use an application > other than the ones in ROM on these machines. > > The terminal emulator has a VT100 mode (which seems to work reasonably > well). And plain text, Xmodem and kermit file transfers. I've used it to download > a file from one machine, then carry the palmtop to a different room and upload > said file to a different machine if it would be impractical to run a cable. > > It is certainly a machine worth considering even if it doesn't meet all your > requirements at the moment... > > -tony Well I had forgotten I had pretty much what I was looking for in the Corestore collection already! http://www.corestore.org/terms.jpg Two terminals the size of small pizza boxes using external VGA displays. On top, an IBM 3483 coax 3270 terminal, on the bottom a DEC VT525 serial terminal. Now all I need is to find VGA LCD displays about the size of those boxes - say 10" or 12" diagonal, suggestions??? - and maybe a few more terminals - and we're pretty much in business! I still love my VT52s and VT100s and 3278s, but I have space considerations too for some of these applications! :-) Thanks! Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 23:06:35 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:06:35 -0700 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > Well I had forgotten I had pretty much what I was looking for in the > Corestore collection already! > > http://www.corestore.org/terms.jpg > > Two terminals the size of small pizza boxes using external VGA > displays. On top, an IBM 3483 coax 3270 terminal, on the bottom a DEC > VT525 serial terminal. > > Now all I need is to find VGA LCD displays about the size of those > boxes - say 10" or 12" diagonal, suggestions??? - and maybe a few more > terminals - and we're pretty much in business! One issue with the VT525 is that you might have to experiment with a few different LCD monitors to find one that produces an acceptable display, especially if you want to use 132 column mode. The last time I tried this with the LCD monitors I happened to have on hand a ViewSonic VP2000s, a Samsung 931B, and a Dell 1704FPTT all produced unacceptable results while an older ViewSonic VP150 did reasonably well. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?41674 From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 23:19:55 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 23:19:55 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 25, 2015, Joseph Lang wrote: > > This list seems to me to be populated with "build your own" types, so > make your own degausser. > > Decades ago I repaired the tape eraser at the TV station I worked at. > Once I saw how it was built I built my own. Take a transformer (something > about 100 watt or more) pull the laminations out (the hard part) line up > all the 'E's put them back. Discard the 'I's. > > It will buzz like mad and get hot in a minute but produce a very strong > AC magnetic field. > > Keep it away from your shadow mask color TV! > > > > Joe > > > > > On Oct 25, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > > On 10/24/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. > > >> How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned > > >> count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC > > >> erase would be insufficient? > > I guess my last question (would doing just an AC erase, by whatever > means, always be insufficient) got lost. > > > > > > > The AC unit I use is a VHS tape bulk eraser. It's pretty strong and > has a limited working time--maybe 2-3 minutes before the thermal cutout > interrupts. Let it cool for a few minutes and get back to work. > > > > > > How strong a DC erase? I suppose that one of these magnets could well > lift a 100 lbs. Scary strong. > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > -- > Eric Christopherson > Also, do I always need to cover one hole on a 3.5" HD disk when using it in an HD-capable drive? Or does the disk or the OS notice it's been formatted as DD and then treat it accordingly? -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 23:44:04 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:44:04 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562DAF94.7020202@sydex.com> On 10/25/2015 09:19 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Also, do I always need to cover one hole on a 3.5" HD disk when using > it in an HD-capable drive? Or does the disk or the OS notice it's > been formatted as DD and then treat it accordingly? In *most* applications, the extra hole in the HD floppy changes the operating parameters of the drive itself. (There are exceptions, notably on some IBM systems of the PS/2 variety). Of course, on a DD-only drive, the drive is blind to the extra hole. One of the things you have to keep on eye peeled for when handling a bunch of 3.5" floppies--to read the disk on an HD drive, you need to cover the hole. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 25 23:44:47 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:44:47 -0700 Subject: HP2100 top card connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562DAFBF.2060207@sbcglobal.net> On 10/25/2015 7:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > On the HP 2100 series machines (and possibly 1000s?) - those top of > the card connectors - are they the 2 x 24 contact on 0.156" centers > types? > > -- > Will > Most of them are. The first two boards have a pair of finer pitched connectors. The memory jumpers are also 2x24, but annoyingly, they use two different ones with slightly different board to board spacing. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 01:08:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 06:08:23 +0000 Subject: HP2100 top card connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On the HP 2100 series machines (and possibly 1000s?) - those top of > the card connectors - are they the 2 x 24 contact on 0.156" centers > types? In most cases yes. There are some which are obviously 0.1" pitch. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 01:12:55 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 06:12:55 +0000 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562DAF94.7020202@sydex.com> References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> , <562DAF94.7020202@sydex.com> Message-ID: [HD 3.5" disks and the density-select hole] > Of course, on a DD-only drive, the drive is blind to the extra hole. Not always! The original Sony full-height drives (the 600rm ones) have a disk-inserted sensor positioned exactly where that hole is. So if you insert an HD disk the drive doesn't detect it. It is rumoured this was deliberate (positioning of the HD hole) so that you couldn't use the wrong disks and have reliability problems. -tony From archer174 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 00:02:36 2015 From: archer174 at gmail.com (Brian Archer) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:02:36 -0700 Subject: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. You can see a pic on my site here: http://asterontech.com/Asterontech/next_adb_conversion.html Internal to the cube, I've found using a 5W appliance bulb to be the easiest. -- Brian Archer On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-10-25 8:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2015-10-25 8:42 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >>> No- if it works with the standard display, the supply is fine. >>> >>> Now that that's clear, I recall some cube supplies would do this >>> without a load for a display- I used to test them by triggering the >>> power-on pin, and seem to remember this behavior occurring if I didn't >>> have a big-ass resistor attached across the pins that normally >>> supplied power to the CRT. >>> >>> Try getting a dummy load on there, the circuitry you have may not be >>> putting enough load on the lines that usually run the CRT to keep the >>> supply in a steady state. >>> >>> >> >> Even though I'm an electronics noob, that seems pretty logical. Can you >> spell out what kind of resistor I'd need? >> >> Is it the 20 Ohm 20W between pin 12 (-12V) and GND that is mentioned here: >> >> >> http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1374&sid=80e5f0626eeb6a10eed066e21b61808d >> >> >> Is 20W the right rating? >> >> Thanks! >> --Toby >> >> > I got a really helpful response from Rob Blessin, from whom I bought the > splitter cable, along the same lines. My supply must be the 152 type that > requires a load. > > Boiling down all the info so far, it seems that a 20 Ohm resistor across > -12V and GND (maybe 12V and GND would work equally well?) would dissipate > 7.2W, which seems enough to keep the supply running (that other link talked > about a 5W load, so this seems a good margin). > > Now, 7.2W is more than one resistor in say a DB-19 shell could safely > dissipate, so I'm maybe looking at some kind of ambiently cooled board. Rob > provided these links: > > > Here: http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3736 and > version 1.0 megaload here: > http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3616&highlight=load+board > > > So I'm wondering what kind of thermal design is both easy and safe. A > single 10W resistor exposed to the air? Or should I spread it over a few > resistors on a little board that might have a DB-19 male at the Cube end. > > Just noob brainstorming here. > > --Toby > > > From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 02:47:22 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:47:22 +0100 Subject: testing... Message-ID: <562DDA8A.50509@dds.nl> Please ignore. it seems my mail does not get through the last couple of times. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 02:52:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 00:52:50 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> <562DAF94.7020202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562DDBD2.5040207@sydex.com> On 10/25/2015 11:12 PM, tony duell wrote: > Not always! The original Sony full-height drives (the 600rm ones) > have a disk-inserted sensor positioned exactly where that hole is. So > if you insert an HD disk the drive doesn't detect it. It is rumoured > this was deliberate (positioning of the HD hole) so that you couldn't > use the wrong disks and have reliability problems. Yes, the Sony OA-D32 drives. Single-sided 600 RPM. One *could* argue, that, given the data rate, it's already "high density" (of a sort). I worked out a BIOS for a Z80 CP/M system called a Preis around 1982, when the drive was pretty new. It was a luggable and had a hard disk option as well. I don't know whatever became of them--but I still have the BIOS listing in my files. I don't think that anyone had any thoughts about putting such a drive in with a controller that would do 1Mbps. Sony never alluded to it in their documentation. The battle of the "pocket floppies", IIRC, hadn't yet been settled in 1982. We could just as well have wound up with the Shugart/Dysan 3.25" floppy--or worse, the Hitachi 3" disks as used in the Amstrad machines. I've still got a couple of 3.5" ED drives, along with blank media--there was a trend that didn't last long... --Chuck From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 02:54:47 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:54:47 +0100 Subject: testing... In-Reply-To: <562DDA8A.50509@dds.nl> References: <562DDA8A.50509@dds.nl> Message-ID: <562DDC47.70907@dds.nl> hmm. strange.. this seems to work. thanks for ignoring this. simon On 26-10-15 08:47, simon wrote: > Please ignore. > > it seems my mail does not get through the last couple of times. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 02:56:15 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:56:15 +0100 Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US Message-ID: <562DDC9F.50909@dds.nl> (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) Hi All, I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise non/half functional T100 in the usa. they need the parts for a movie. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 02:58:58 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:58:58 -0400 Subject: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter In-Reply-To: References: <20151024214711.GH8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <029CCF5E-5AF2-4890-9DBF-173A15BBDEEF@gmail.com> The socket is a metal piece with an inside thread on one end and an outside thread on the other end. You commonly see them on serial connectors usually on the equipment the cable attached too. The bottoming out I was refering too was it you use a standoff you may have too much exposed thread on the screws. They will meet inside the standoff before the connectors are properly seated. Joe > On Oct 25, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Joseph Lang > wrote: > >> 4-40 is the correct size. I would remove the jack screws on one side and >> replace with sockets. If you use standoffs the screws May bottom out too >> soon. >> > > Could you explain that in more detail? I'm not aware of "sockets" except as > the tools that are used for turning hex nuts; is there a kind of socket > that actually gets installed on a bolt? > > And I'm not sure what you mean about bottoming out. You just mean there > wouldn't be enough length of thread to fit both male ends securely? > > >> >> Joe >>> On Oct 24, 2015, at 5:47 PM, Eric Christopherson < >> echristopherson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is connected >>> via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. It works great, but the >>> ends of the standoff bolts without nuts come together where the VGA >>> cable meets the adapter; that is to say, the VGA cable's nuts are on the >>> far side of the shell from its male end, and the adapter's nuts are on >>> the far side of the shell from its female end. >>> >>> I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from >>> disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want >>> some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem >>> correct? >>> >>> -- >>> Eric Christopherson >> > > > > -- > Eric Christopherson From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 26 03:04:06 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:04:06 -0400 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) Message-ID: <1212c5.6e6b0b26.435f3876@aol.com> and the first hp-150 drive set, the hp-9121, was single sided double density SS/DD discs (270Kb). sure was glad when the 9122 came out! Always looking for more HP-150 stuff for our display... any one have a monarch butterfly advertising poster? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 10/26/2015 12:52:56 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 10/25/2015 11:12 PM, tony duell wrote: > Not always! The original Sony full-height drives (the 600rm ones) > have a disk-inserted sensor positioned exactly where that hole is. So > if you insert an HD disk the drive doesn't detect it. It is rumoured > this was deliberate (positioning of the HD hole) so that you couldn't > use the wrong disks and have reliability problems. Yes, the Sony OA-D32 drives. Single-sided 600 RPM. One *could* argue, that, given the data rate, it's already "high density" (of a sort). I worked out a BIOS for a Z80 CP/M system called a Preis around 1982, when the drive was pretty new. It was a luggable and had a hard disk option as well. I don't know whatever became of them--but I still have the BIOS listing in my files. I don't think that anyone had any thoughts about putting such a drive in with a controller that would do 1Mbps. Sony never alluded to it in their documentation. The battle of the "pocket floppies", IIRC, hadn't yet been settled in 1982. We could just as well have wound up with the Shugart/Dysan 3.25" floppy--or worse, the Hitachi 3" disks as used in the Amstrad machines. I've still got a couple of 3.5" ED drives, along with blank media--there was a trend that didn't last long... --Chuck From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 03:09:15 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:09:15 +0100 Subject: filtering? Message-ID: <562DDFAB.5040202@dds.nl> Hi All, it seems that some of my messages do not get through to the list. Is there a filter on this list of some sort? -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 26 03:16:21 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US In-Reply-To: <562DDC9F.50909@dds.nl> References: <562DDC9F.50909@dds.nl> Message-ID: <201510260816.EAA11814@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) Actually, it got through just fine, at least to me. I've sent an offlist copy of the whole post as it arrived in my mailbox; if you don't get it, something is disrupting your incoming mail stream.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 03:18:28 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:18:28 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100? Message-ID: <562DE1D4.6030600@dds.nl> (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) Hi All, I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise non/half functional T100 in the usa. they need the parts for a movie. -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 26 03:31:20 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:31:20 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100? In-Reply-To: <562DE1D4.6030600@dds.nl> References: <562DE1D4.6030600@dds.nl> Message-ID: <002d01d10fc8$b1d335e0$1579a1a0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens simon > Verzonden: maandag 26 oktober 2015 9:18 > Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Siemens T100? > > (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) > > > Hi All, > > I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two > T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the > states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise > non/half functional T100 in the usa. > > they need the parts for a movie. > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl Just counting ;) This is the 5th time you're sending a T100 inquiry and I'm receiving it... Maybe your spam box is ahead of you? -Rik From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Oct 26 04:33:33 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:33:33 +1100 Subject: Commodore and Atari In-Reply-To: <0e5d01d10ec3$868dda30$93a98e90$@com> References: <0dd001d10df5$b1c6f610$1554e230$@com> <004301d10ec3$17be8af0$473ba0d0$@internode.on.net> <0e5d01d10ec3$868dda30$93a98e90$@com> Message-ID: <007b01d10fd1$625b57f0$271207d0$@internode.on.net> Bit far - I'm in Australia :-) Have a friend who wants to get into classic computing and wants to return to his roots with an Atari - I said I'd keep an eye out for him. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Sunday, 25 October 2015 12:22 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Commodore and Atari Texas -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Parker Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Commodore and Atari Where are you located ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Saturday, 24 October 2015 11:48 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Commodore and Atari Is anyone interested in a Vic 20, Atari 800XL, or an Amiga? The Amiga appears to be missing a couple of things. No AC adapters for any of them. Complete key caps, no severe yellowing, no way to test. The Amiga resembles this one: http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/amiga500.jpg Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 08:34:23 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:34:23 +0100 Subject: Siemens T100? In-Reply-To: <002d01d10fc8$b1d335e0$1579a1a0$@xs4all.nl> References: <562DE1D4.6030600@dds.nl> <002d01d10fc8$b1d335e0$1579a1a0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <562E2BDF.4020900@dds.nl> Hmm. very strange that only this specific mail and all probable answers did not get through. Rick Murphy kindly send a reply directly to me (thanks for that) It seems that some word in my subject did trigger an spam filter somewhere. There are no mails in my spambox on the webmail client to be found and no filters are active on any of this. I Apologize for these multiple posts. simon On 26-10-15 09:31, Rik Bos wrote: >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens simon >> Verzonden: maandag 26 oktober 2015 9:18 >> Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Siemens T100? >> >> (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two >> T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the >> states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise >> non/half functional T100 in the usa. >> >> they need the parts for a movie. >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl > > Just counting ;) > This is the 5th time you're sending a T100 inquiry and I'm receiving it... > > Maybe your spam box is ahead of you? > > -Rik > > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 26 08:39:50 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:39:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Trying to fine out more information on a Comstar Process Control Compiler References: <138551360.1857028.1445866790642.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <138551360.1857028.1445866790642.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> So I purchased what was told to me was an Eprom Programmer. It's called the Comstar Process Control Compiler. With some digging, I am learning that this is a portable compiler that allows you to program larger industrial computers. I found an article from 1975 that talks about the unit. Development of a portable compiler for industrial microcomputer systems http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1975/5083/00/50830033.pdf >From the article: "THE PORTABLE PROCESS CONTROL COMPILER The process control compiler shown in Figure 6 is a small portable unit designed for programming the Comstar 4 Industrial Microcomputer System. The programming can be accomplished with high reliability even in field conditions. The PCL instructions are keyed in via the compiler keyboard, then converted into machine language and loaded into the PROM chip by the compiler. The input functions are displayed directly on a 32 character alpha-numeric plasma display, ensuring the user of a correct input. All keyed-in commands are stored in a buffer which can be verified with a key command. Up to 256 bytes of data or instructions can be entered. Data are compiled and can be dumped into a clean erased PROM chip. As an option, EIA or TTY outputs are available so the program can be printed out for future reference. A compiler can also edit, erase or program PROMS in machine language." A company by the name of Warner & Swasey was an industrial machine company. They built all sorts of machines for industry. They had a sub division called Comstar which designed industrial computers The larger computers ran their own Process Control Language and so they developed this machine as a portable device to program the larger machines and then burn ROMs which then control the larger computers. The person I bought it from told me that the larger systems ran a chicken processing plant and that they used this system to program and troubleshot the system. The unit runs on an Intel 4004 and is programmed using Comstar's Process Control Language. I'm hoping someone would know more about this and can point me in the right direction.. I already checked Bit Savers The only other article that seems to talk about this is "Micros can provide more flexibility for less money" Computerworld Sep 25, 1974, Page 28 From rickb at bensene.com Mon Oct 26 08:42:19 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 06:42:19 -0700 Subject: Anyone near Erie, PA? Pickup/Pack/Ship Help Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CE8@mail.bensene.com> Greetings, all, I have a contact in Erie, PA that has a piece of equipment that I need to get, but he is unwilling to ship it, and making a trip to his location to pick it up is pretty unlikely given time/expense. If there is a ClassicCmp'er that lives nearby Erie, and would be willing to pick up, pack and ship (at my expense) this item to me, I would be willing to pay for time/effort expended in doing so. The item is heavy, around 80 pounds. I could ship a very nice wooden crate to the packer who could use it to ship the item to me inside. All that would be necessary is to pick up the item, pack it securely in the crate, and take it to the closest UPS depot and drop it off to ship to me. If there is anyone out there who might be willing, please contact me by private Email: rickb /at/ bensene /dot/ com Thank you, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 26 08:43:28 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:43:28 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-26 1:02 AM, Brian Archer wrote: > Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a > pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. > You can see a pic on my site here: > http://asterontech.com/Asterontech/next_adb_conversion.html > Hi Brian I did see your mod while looking around for info. I'd prefer not to mod the soundbox so my options seem to be your internal backplane load board ( http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3616&highlight=load+board ) or maybe a small load board inline to the monitor cable? It looks like ambient cooling is sufficient for the version shown here? Thanks very much for the excellent info you've posted so far! --Toby > Internal to the cube, I've found using a 5W appliance bulb to be the > easiest. > > -- > Brian Archer > \ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 26 08:44:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:44:49 +0000 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels Message-ID: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> Hi Guys OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: PDP-8/e (Type A) PDP-8/e (Type B) PDP-8/f PDP-8/m Existing orders price as pre-paid New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra screen for the logos. There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. Rod Smallwood From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 09:27:35 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:27:35 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> > On Oct 26, 2015, at 9:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2015-10-26 1:02 AM, Brian Archer wrote: >> Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a >> pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. My favorite low tech dummy load is the one my father came up with: a couple of resistors (carbon composite is best, carbon film or metal film will do), 1-2 watt size, in a jar filled with water. Works just fine for 100 watts or so, and is useable not just for power supplies but for HF transmitter testing. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 09:38:12 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:38:12 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> On 10/24/2015 09:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? I went around all the local places that I could think of a couple of years ago and bought up whatever stock of floppies that I could find (and picking sure were slim). Quite a few boxes of 3.5" HD, a few boxes of 5.25" DD, but zero 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD. 3.5" HD media just killed off the use of 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD, I suppose. I'm not sure what the reason for my finding a few boxes of 5.25" DD was, though - perhaps it was just produced in sufficient volume for there to still be a few survivors kicking around. I've never had any luck finding used disks anywhere locally; people are a bit too concerned about data theft these days, and all of that seems to go straight to landfill. cheers Jules From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 09:43:54 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:43:54 -0300 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> On 2015-10-26 11:38 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/24/2015 09:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? > > I went around all the local places that I could think of a couple of > years ago and bought up whatever stock of floppies that I could find > (and picking sure were slim). Quite a few boxes of 3.5" HD, a few > boxes of 5.25" DD, but zero 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD. > > 3.5" HD media just killed off the use of 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD, I > suppose. I'm not sure what the reason for my finding a few boxes of > 5.25" DD was, though - perhaps it was just produced in sufficient > volume for there to still be a few survivors kicking around. > > I've never had any luck finding used disks anywhere locally; people > are a bit too concerned about data theft these days, and all of that > seems to go straight to landfill. > > cheers > > Jules > Not long ago I bought a 100 from floppydisk.com for use with my vintage HP's they where reputed to be used but looked like new to me. They seem to work fine, I have not had any fail to format or fail in use. Paul. From jsw at ieee.org Mon Oct 26 09:45:44 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:45:44 -0500 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> Message-ID: <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. Oil is the usual medium here. Excluding of course the pre-1980 transformer oils that were notorious for having contaminated PCB?s within or anything with flammability at working temperatures. Jerry Weiss WB9MRI > On Oct 26, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 9:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> On 2015-10-26 1:02 AM, Brian Archer wrote: >>> Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a >>> pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. > > My favorite low tech dummy load is the one my father came up with: a couple of resistors (carbon composite is best, carbon film or metal film will do), 1-2 watt size, in a jar filled with water. Works just fine for 100 watts or so, and is useable not just for power supplies but for HF transmitter testing. > > paul > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 26 09:52:55 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:52:55 -0700 Subject: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US In-Reply-To: <562DDC9F.50909@dds.nl> References: <562DDC9F.50909@dds.nl> Message-ID: <562E3E47.40200@sbcglobal.net> On 10/26/2015 12:56 AM, simon wrote: > (As previous post did not get through, again a repost) > > > Hi All, > > I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two > T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the > states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise > non/half functional T100 in the usa. > > they need the parts for a movie. I saw this a few times so it did get through. I guess that no one knows of a T100 anywhere. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 26 09:54:33 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) In-Reply-To: References: <000001d10f5f$2c83f410$858bdc30$@classiccmp.org> <20151025201215.GL8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Originally I thought it was basing it on Comnet or Compuserve but after > reading these comments, I now think Quantum Link makes more sense. They > are doing a good job portraying the various personalities, especially the > disfunctional ones. In the episode where there is a room full of people and it's up on a projection screen -- I looked up the Quantum Link main page online and it seemed to match. http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gquantumlink.gif That thing -- Ethan O'Toole From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 09:56:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:56:52 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5DF0DB77-CEED-4C45-ACB2-ABC0E736BF68@comcast.net> > On Oct 26, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. How stable do you need? > > Oil is the usual medium here. Transformer oil is a nice dielectric, so for high voltage transformers that's what you want. But for low voltage dummy loads, or for medium power ham transmitters, the voltages involved are not that high. Plain tap water is slightly conductive, but nowhere near as much as the resistors you're using. And water is a MUCH better coolant than oil. This is why machine tools typically use water as the coolant, or more precisely, water with a small amount of "soluble oil" mixed into it. It's true that resistors are not designed to sit in water indefinitely. But that means that, after a year or so, they may have been damaged. Hours or days of immersion doesn't bother them at all. If you want a good UHF dummy load, or one with 1% accuracy, this is probably not the best answer. If it needs to dissipate multiple kW, or last for a decade, ditto. But for a basic solution at near-zero cost, it works great. If you're not confident the load is still good 6 months from now, just spend 50 cents making another. Or lift the resistors out of the water-filled jar when done with the day's testing. paul, ni1d From radiotest at juno.com Mon Oct 26 10:02:25 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:02:25 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> At 10:45 AM 10/26/2015, Jerry Weiss wrote: >Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. I concur. Tap water may have contaminants (such as chlorine) that will cause electrical leakage. >Oil is the usual medium here. Current non-PCB transformer oil is the preferred oil, but for relatively low power levels (say, 1 kilowatt dissipation or less) USP-grade mineral oil (available at your pharmacy) is a very viable substitute. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From wulfman at wulfman.com Mon Oct 26 10:07:45 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:07:45 -0700 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> Message-ID: <562E41C1.6090909@wulfman.com> Distilled water will not conduct. Its a perfect insulator. It will work fine. On 10/26/2015 7:45 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. > > Oil is the usual medium here. Excluding of course the pre-1980 transformer oils that were notorious for having contaminated PCB?s within or anything with flammability at working temperatures. > > > Jerry Weiss > WB9MRI > > >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 26, 2015, at 9:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>> On 2015-10-26 1:02 AM, Brian Archer wrote: >>>> Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a >>>> pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. >> My favorite low tech dummy load is the one my father came up with: a couple of resistors (carbon composite is best, carbon film or metal film will do), 1-2 watt size, in a jar filled with water. Works just fine for 100 watts or so, and is useable not just for power supplies but for HF transmitter testing. >> >> paul >> >> > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 10:08:00 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:08:00 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <5DF0DB77-CEED-4C45-ACB2-ABC0E736BF68@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <5DF0DB77-CEED-4C45-ACB2-ABC0E736BF68@comcast.net> Message-ID: <19D2E20B-E126-4C7A-81D9-F04BCEB16AE1@comcast.net> > On Oct 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> >> Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? ... > ... > But for low voltage dummy loads, or for medium power ham transmitters, the voltages involved are not that high. Plain tap water is slightly conductive, but nowhere near as much as the resistors you're using. Come to think of it, water immersed setups have shown up in the literature. There was a nice article in QST a decade or so ago describing a 1296 MHz kilowatt amplifier, built with a 3CX100A5 converted to water immersion cooling. The setup included a clever trick to monitor the conductivity of the cooling water, so you could swap it out if it got too conductive. The water there was in direct contact with the anode, at around 2 kV or so. Worked fine apparently. I never built anything like that but the appraoch seemed sensible. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 10:09:27 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:09:27 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> Message-ID: <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> > On Oct 26, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > > At 10:45 AM 10/26/2015, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. > > I concur. Tap water may have contaminants (such as chlorine) that will cause electrical leakage. Sure, but so what? A dummy load is supposed to have electrical leakage. All that water contamination would do is reduce the effective resistance of your load by a hair. If you used seawater, it might make a difference that matters, but tap water even in NYC? No. paul From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 26 10:21:24 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:21:24 +0000 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49F68510-E159-4687-B33E-0451668FE5CA@swri.edu> On Oct 26, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> I concur. Tap water may have contaminants (such as chlorine) that will cause electrical leakage. > > Sure, but so what? A dummy load is supposed to have electrical leakage. All that water contamination would do is reduce the effective resistance of your load by a hair. OK, so a couple years back, I wanted to have some chemistry fun with the kids. So, I got out the jump cables, clamped them onto some aluminum foil, stuffed the foil into test tubes, filled the tubes with water, inverted both of them in the same basin and sprinkled in a little salt, cranked up the car, and sure enough ? bubbles started evolving off the foil and collecting in the test tubes. Just as expected, one tube was filling with gas twice as fast as the other. Just as expected, when we held that tube over a candle, it went ?WHEEP? and got hot (the flame was barely visible). Um? the OP had a 12V supply, right? How *do* you keep from electrolyzing your coolant in this apparatus? - Mark PS. this is a cool experiment but suitable cautions apply. The most subtle is: not too much salt, lest you start evolving chlorine gas instead of hydrogen. Flammable to explosive gasses, 12V sparks, etc. etc? be careful if you try to replicate this. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 10:30:44 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:30:44 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <49F68510-E159-4687-B33E-0451668FE5CA@swri.edu> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <49F68510-E159-4687-B33E-0451668FE5CA@swri.edu> Message-ID: <323FE720-464C-43D5-993B-5D40A5BD3668@comcast.net> > On Oct 26, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > On Oct 26, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> I concur. Tap water may have contaminants (such as chlorine) that will cause electrical leakage. >> >> Sure, but so what? A dummy load is supposed to have electrical leakage. All that water contamination would do is reduce the effective resistance of your load by a hair. > > OK, so a couple years back, I wanted to have some chemistry fun with the kids. So, I got out the jump cables, clamped them onto some aluminum foil, stuffed the foil into test tubes, filled the tubes with water, inverted both of them in the same basin and sprinkled in a little salt, cranked up the car, and sure enough ? bubbles started evolving off the foil and collecting in the test tubes. > Just as expected, one tube was filling with gas twice as fast as the other. > Just as expected, when we held that tube over a candle, it went ?WHEEP? and got hot (the flame was barely visible). > > Um? the OP had a 12V supply, right? How *do* you keep from electrolyzing your coolant in this apparatus? Some observations. One is that I've used this scheme for ages, and the only bubbles seen were steam (after having the dummy load dissipate 100 watts for a couple of minutes). Second: if you deliberately make the water conductive by adding salt, that's a different test setup. Try this with plain water. If your water is too cruddy, use deionized water; that's still a very cheap option. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Oct 26 10:38:17 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 16:38:17 +0100 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-26 16:09, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> >> At 10:45 AM 10/26/2015, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> >>> Water in the dummy load? Water cooled - sure. Water immersed? Even though I see it posted on the web, i have may doubts it would be a stable method. >> >> I concur. Tap water may have contaminants (such as chlorine) that will cause electrical leakage. > > Sure, but so what? A dummy load is supposed to have electrical leakage. All that water contamination would do is reduce the effective resistance of your load by a hair. > > If you used seawater, it might make a difference that matters, but tap water even in NYC? No. I wonder if even sea water would make much difference...? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Oct 26 10:41:50 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:41:50 +0000 (WET) Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again Message-ID: <01PSDEZ0DLCI009N2Q@beyondthepale.ie> > > OK, so a couple years back, I wanted to have some chemistry fun with the kids. > So, I got out the jump cables, clamped them onto some aluminum foil, stuffed > the foil into test tubes, filled the tubes with water, inverted both of them > in the same basin and sprinkled in a little salt, cranked up the car, and > sure enough ? bubbles started evolving off the foil and collecting in the > test tubes. > Just as expected, one tube was filling with gas twice as fast as the other. > Just as expected, when we held that tube over a candle, it went ?WHEEP? and > got hot (the flame was barely visible). > > Um? the OP had a 12V supply, right? How *do* you keep from electrolyzing > your coolant in this apparatus. Firstly, don't add salt. Secondly, the low resistance dummy load is going to soak up almost all of the current, leaving very little to go through the much higher resistance water resulting in very little gas production. If the minute amount of gas produced is still a problem, you could electrically insulate the dummy load from the water. However, this may also help to thermally insulate from the water it which is not what you want. > > PS. this is a cool experiment but suitable cautions apply. The most subtle > is: not too much salt, lest you start evolving chlorine gas instead of > hydrogen. Flammable to explosive gasses, 12V sparks, etc. etc? be careful > if you try to replicate this. Also, beware of the danger of shorting the jump cables together, either directly or via worn jewellery etc causing a large bang, melted terminals etc and possible damage to kids, self and car. Consider using something like a current limited bench power supply instead. Regards, Peter Coglan. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 26 10:54:52 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:54:52 -0400 Subject: Quantum Link (Q-Link) Message-ID: <128f3d.589284bf.435fa6cc@aol.com> so this show is closer to reality than I thought?? not knowing quantum link none of the other services seemed to fit... Ed# In a message dated 10/26/2015 7:54:38 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ethan at 757.org writes: > Originally I thought it was basing it on Comnet or Compuserve but after > reading these comments, I now think Quantum Link makes more sense. They > are doing a good job portraying the various personalities, especially the > disfunctional ones. In the episode where there is a room full of people and it's up on a projection screen -- I looked up the Quantum Link main page online and it seemed to match. http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gquantumlink.gif That thing -- Ethan O'Toole From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 26 10:58:00 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/24/2015 09:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? > > > I've never had any luck finding used disks anywhere locally; people are a bit > too concerned about data theft these days, and all of that seems to go > straight to landfill. > I suspect Athana still stocks them. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 11:14:12 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:14:12 -0400 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 9:44 AM, rod wrote: > New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. > Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. I should have some scans of a real 11/70 plexi available to send soon. -ethan From radiotest at juno.com Mon Oct 26 11:16:21 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:16:21 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Mon Oct 26 11:09:21 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:09:21 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151026120804.03e913f0@juno.com> At 11:09 AM 10/26/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >... but tap water even in NYC? New York City tap water is of higher quality than the tap water available in many US cities. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 11:24:16 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 17:24:16 +0100 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> Message-ID: <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a couple of headlights from a car. On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: > My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. > > I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. > > Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 11:50:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:50:32 -0700 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <1212c5.6e6b0b26.435f3876@aol.com> References: <1212c5.6e6b0b26.435f3876@aol.com> Message-ID: <562E59D8.5000204@sydex.com> On 10/26/2015 01:04 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > and the first hp-150 drive set, the hp-9121, was single sided > double density SS/DD discs (270Kb). > > sure was glad when the 9122 came out! I supsect that the Sony SMC-70 may have been among the first systems to come out with the things. Fortunately, I still have several cartons (duplicator grade) of blank DSDD 3.5" mdedia. A few months ago, I gave away (FFS) about 1,000 of the things. I suspect that the the world's supply is far from exhausted. Lots of common word processors also used them (e.g. Brother). --Chuck From jrr at flippers.com Mon Oct 26 12:09:50 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:09:50 -0700 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562E5E5E.5080408@flippers.com> On 10/25/2015 4:37 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 25/10/2015 17:19, "John Robertson" wrote: > >>> Hi John and others, >>> >>> Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >>> leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18 >>> missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this: >>> >>> 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) >>> 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band) >>> 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) >>> 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >>> >>> Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which >>> isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting >>> things the correct way. >>> >>> Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals >>> it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has >>> the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm >>> guessing my PROMs are toast. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >> Reverse insertion may just mean you are drawing more current on the /OE >> and /CS than expected. >> >> How about this - go back to my original suggestion (no diodes) and this >> time add a small resistor to the 2732 pin 18 and Vcc to act as a load. >> Try larger resistors if the reader still complains - and try reading >> with NO 2332 in the reader (all FFs). Once you can trick the reader into >> reading air as highs then try your 2332 again with the working resistor >> values for the unused select. >> >> Oh, and what reader are you using? Did you check with the manufacturer >> (or archives somewhere - archive.org?) to see if they have a trick for >> reading 2532/2332s? > It's an MQP Pinmaster48, a 90s-era programmer. As it happens tonight I got > round to dumping some other EPROMs I had for someone else and one of them > was an SGS2532 which read fine as an MCM2532 so I know the machine works > with that age of chip. All my CBM ones give the same results so I'm assuming > they're dead. Thinking about it there may be some 2532s at work so I can try > burning a PET tester. > > I saw the madrigaldesign adapter on Friday but after re-re-remaking the one > I was working on yesterday it was beginning to look a bit rough around the > edges :) > > Cheers, > Hi Adrian, Perhaps one final test for your 2332s is to do a Diode Test on the pins relative to the ground pin (pin 12) and Vcc pin (24). These should sow either open or something like 0.6 or higher voltage drop across the pins - exchange the probes to check both directions. If your gates all read OK (check between Vcc and GND as well!), then it might be that the brand of 2332 you have simply draws more current than your programmer likes. What brand is the PROM? Perhaps it is in one of our reference book libraries... If your 2332s are bad, then have you put out a call to see if anyone else has archived them already? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 12:23:16 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:23:16 -0700 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> Message-ID: <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> This thread took a turn for the absurd. Oil? Water? What a practical bunch of people. /s They make resistors with adequate cooling... Almost as if they're rated for a certain number of watts of dissipation and you can buy them based on that. They are resistors after all. And if they overheat-- oh wait, they're heavy duty resistors, not ICs. Get a couple, put them in a metal project box, put it inline with the cable, and call it a day. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 26, 2015, at 09:24, simon wrote: > > please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a couple of headlights from a car. > > > >> On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. >> >> I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 12:41:24 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:41:24 -0400 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 References: <562E5E5E.5080408@flippers.com> Message-ID: <82D882170145425FA4074C439935B640@310e2> PET ROMs archive here: http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/pet/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Robertson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 1:09 PM Subject: Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 > On 10/25/2015 4:37 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 25/10/2015 17:19, "John Robertson" >> wrote: >> >>>> Hi John and others, >>>> >>>> Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and >>>> wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >>>> leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer >>>> complained about pin 18 >>>> missing. The adapter in front of me is now >>>> wired like this: >>>> >>>> 2332 (18) to 2372 (21) >>>> 2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 >>>> (band) >>>> 2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24) >>>> 2332 (21) to 2372 (24) >>>> >>>> Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've >>>> wired something upside-down which >>>> isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's >>>> no problem so I'm mounting >>>> things the correct way. >>>> >>>> Further digging into available eproms that >>>> the programmer can read reveals >>>> it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 >>>> which the datasheet tells me has >>>> the same pinout as the 2332. I still get >>>> "reverse insertion error" so I'm >>>> guessing my PROMs are toast. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>> Reverse insertion may just mean you are >>> drawing more current on the /OE >>> and /CS than expected. >>> >>> How about this - go back to my original >>> suggestion (no diodes) and this >>> time add a small resistor to the 2732 pin 18 >>> and Vcc to act as a load. >>> Try larger resistors if the reader still >>> complains - and try reading >>> with NO 2332 in the reader (all FFs). Once you >>> can trick the reader into >>> reading air as highs then try your 2332 again >>> with the working resistor >>> values for the unused select. >>> >>> Oh, and what reader are you using? Did you >>> check with the manufacturer >>> (or archives somewhere - archive.org?) to see >>> if they have a trick for >>> reading 2532/2332s? >> It's an MQP Pinmaster48, a 90s-era programmer. >> As it happens tonight I got >> round to dumping some other EPROMs I had for >> someone else and one of them >> was an SGS2532 which read fine as an MCM2532 so >> I know the machine works >> with that age of chip. All my CBM ones give the >> same results so I'm assuming >> they're dead. Thinking about it there may be >> some 2532s at work so I can try >> burning a PET tester. >> >> I saw the madrigaldesign adapter on Friday but >> after re-re-remaking the one >> I was working on yesterday it was beginning to >> look a bit rough around the >> edges :) >> >> Cheers, >> > Hi Adrian, > > Perhaps one final test for your 2332s is to do a > Diode Test on the pins relative to the ground > pin (pin 12) and Vcc pin (24). These should sow > either open or something like 0.6 or higher > voltage drop across the pins - exchange the > probes to check both directions. > > If your gates all read OK (check between Vcc and > GND as well!), then it might be that the brand > of 2332 you have simply draws more current than > your programmer likes. What brand is the PROM? > Perhaps it is in one of our reference book > libraries... > > If your 2332s are bad, then have you put out a > call to see if anyone else has archived them > already? > > John :-#)# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, > Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, > Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 26 12:52:59 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:52:59 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-26 1:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This thread took a turn for the absurd. Oil? Water? What a practical > bunch of people. /s > > They make resistors with adequate cooling... Almost as if they're > rated for a certain number of watts of dissipation and you can buy > them based on that. They are resistors after all. > > And if they overheat-- oh wait, they're heavy duty resistors, not > ICs. Get a couple, put them in a metal project box, put it inline > with the cable, and call it a day. Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. j/k - yeah that was what I was basically planning, Ian ... just as a noob, I'm not totally confident with what a single air cooled part can dissipate. (The thread was kind of interesting anyway!) --Toby > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 09:24, simon wrote: >> >> please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a couple of headlights from a car. >> >> >> >>> On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: >>> My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. >>> >>> I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. >>> >>> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >>> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html >> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Oct 26 13:22:58 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:22:58 -0400 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) Message-ID: <1304d0.ccd566d.435fc982@aol.com> Chuck good to know we probably need some - I do not think we have any good clean ones new here... will check.... Ed# In a message dated 10/26/2015 9:50:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 10/26/2015 01:04 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > and the first hp-150 drive set, the hp-9121, was single sided > double density SS/DD discs (270Kb). > > sure was glad when the 9122 came out! I supsect that the Sony SMC-70 may have been among the first systems to come out with the things. Fortunately, I still have several cartons (duplicator grade) of blank DSDD 3.5" mdedia. A few months ago, I gave away (FFS) about 1,000 of the things. I suspect that the the world's supply is far from exhausted. Lots of common word processors also used them (e.g. Brother). --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 13:32:37 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:32:37 -0700 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Not sure how much of a noob you are, although you repeatedly claim to be one so just on the safe side we'll cover some Engineering for Poets (or Programmers) to reassure you ;) -- V = I * R Power (watts) = I * V You know the voltage of the monitor. You know the resistance of your resistor. So, you also know the maximum power the resistor needs to be rated to dissipate. If the spec says the single air-cooled resistor you're buying is good to dissipate X watts into ambient temperature Y, I'd just go ahead and believe it. Make sure the numbers work out and you're fine, no heavy duty HVAC needed. :-P Cheers, - Ian On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-10-26 1:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> This thread took a turn for the absurd. Oil? Water? What a practical >> bunch of people. /s >> >> They make resistors with adequate cooling... Almost as if they're >> rated for a certain number of watts of dissipation and you can buy >> them based on that. They are resistors after all. >> >> And if they overheat-- oh wait, they're heavy duty resistors, not >> ICs. Get a couple, put them in a metal project box, put it inline >> with the cable, and call it a day. >> > > Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. > > j/k - yeah that was what I was basically planning, Ian ... just as a noob, > I'm not totally confident with what a single air cooled part can dissipate. > > (The thread was kind of interesting anyway!) > > --Toby > > > Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 09:24, simon wrote: >>> >>> please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a couple of headlights from >>> a car. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: >>>> My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with >>>> broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that >>>> I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have >>>> all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for >>>> higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. >>>> >>>> I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. >>>> >>>> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >>>> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Met vriendelijke Groet, >>> >>> Simon Claessen >>> drukknop.nl >>> >> >> > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 13:49:43 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:49:43 -0700 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562E75C7.1070803@sydex.com> On 10/26/2015 10:52 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. > > j/k - yeah that was what I was basically planning, Ian ... just as a > noob, I'm not totally confident with what a single air cooled part > can dissipate. The talk about dummy loads brought back a memory of the Heath Cantenna--an RF dummy load consisting of a Globar (noninductive) resistor in a gallon paint can filled with mineral oil with an attachment to a SO-239 "UHF" connector on top. IIRC, it was literally capable of dissipating a full "gallon". Kanthal Globar is still very much in business and does offer the resistors, if anyone wants to build such a unit for old times' sake. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 26 14:01:55 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E75C7.1070803@sydex.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> <562E75C7.1070803@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The talk about dummy loads brought back a memory of the Heath Cantenna--an RF > dummy load consisting of a Globar (noninductive) resistor in a gallon paint > can filled with mineral oil with an attachment to a SO-239 "UHF" connector on > top. IIRC, it was literally capable of dissipating a full "gallon". > > I have one of those sitting on the floor of my office. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 26 14:08:31 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:08:31 -0500 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> <562D79D2.4020207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562E7A2F.3020209@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2015 08:32 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 25, 2015 8:54 PM, "Jon Elson" wrote: >> On 10/25/2015 05:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> >>> A pull-out keyboard in the base? I have one too. Would be perfect if >>> it worked, and I had half a dozen of them! >>> >>> >> No, mine did NOT have a pull-out or fold-down kbd, it was all one piece, > like a micro-miniaturized ADM3 or similar terminal. Possibly it WAS the > same as the picture on the Wikipedia article, I couldn't tell the scale > from that pic. >> Jon > Something like the iXO handheld terminal? > > http://vintagecomputer.net/iXO/iXO_telecomputing-system.jpg > > No, it WAS a Minitel. The Wikipedia picture gives nothing for scale, but there is a picture of one on a Google pictures collection that shows it on a desk with a regular keyboard and LCD screen, and you can see how small the thing really was. Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:09:12 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:09:12 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Well, we indeed know the voltage (V or E) but not the current (I) used in your formula; since I is E/R then power is simply E^2/R, so 20 Ohms at 12V has to dissipate 144/20 = 7.2 W. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Finder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again > Not sure how much of a noob you are, although > you repeatedly claim to be > one so just on the safe side we'll cover some > Engineering for Poets (or > Programmers) to reassure you ;) -- > > V = I * R > Power (watts) = I * V > > You know the voltage of the monitor. You know > the resistance of your > resistor. So, you also know the maximum power > the resistor needs to be > rated to dissipate. > > If the spec says the single air-cooled resistor > you're buying is good to > dissipate X watts into ambient temperature Y, > I'd just go ahead and believe > it. > > Make sure the numbers work out and you're fine, > no heavy duty HVAC needed. > :-P > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Toby Thain > > wrote: > >> On 2015-10-26 1:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >>> This thread took a turn for the absurd. Oil? >>> Water? What a practical >>> bunch of people. /s >>> >>> They make resistors with adequate cooling... >>> Almost as if they're >>> rated for a certain number of watts of >>> dissipation and you can buy >>> them based on that. They are resistors after >>> all. >>> >>> And if they overheat-- oh wait, they're heavy >>> duty resistors, not >>> ICs. Get a couple, put them in a metal project >>> box, put it inline >>> with the cable, and call it a day. >>> >> >> Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. >> >> j/k - yeah that was what I was basically >> planning, Ian ... just as a noob, >> I'm not totally confident with what a single >> air cooled part can dissipate. >> >> (The thread was kind of interesting anyway!) >> >> --Toby >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 26, 2015, at 09:24, simon >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a >>>> couple of headlights from >>>> a car. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: >>>>> My recommendation of oil is based upon my >>>>> decades of experience with >>>>> broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 >>>>> kilowatts. The dummy loads that >>>>> I have worked with for medium wave and below >>>>> and from 5 kilowatts down have >>>>> all been convection air cooled. Broadband >>>>> dummy loads that I have used for >>>>> higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been >>>>> forced air cooled. >>>>> >>>>> I prefer to stick with what I have >>>>> experience with. As for water, YMMV. >>>>> >>>>> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, >>>>> Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >>>>> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Met vriendelijke Groet, >>>> >>>> Simon Claessen >>>> drukknop.nl >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:17:30 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:17:30 -0500 Subject: US South: AS/400 system Message-ID: Spotted on CL, not near it, no relation to seller, etc: http://jackson.craigslist.org/sys/5246929532.html AS/400 is a narrow niche in the hobby but a complete running system can be hard to come by. Also, terminals are nice. j From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 26 14:25:28 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:25:28 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E75C7.1070803@sydex.com> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> <562E75C7.1070803@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 26, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/26/2015 10:52 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > >> Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. >> >> j/k - yeah that was what I was basically planning, Ian ... just as a >> noob, I'm not totally confident with what a single air cooled part >> can dissipate. > > > The talk about dummy loads brought back a memory of the Heath Cantenna--an RF dummy load consisting of a Globar (noninductive) resistor in a gallon paint can filled with mineral oil with an attachment to a SO-239 "UHF" connector on top. IIRC, it was literally capable of dissipating a full "gallon". > > Kanthal Globar is still very much in business and does offer the resistors, if anyone wants to build such a unit for old times' sake. For that matter, dummy loads that look just like that are sold currently by MFJ. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:27:04 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:27:04 -0000 Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562E7A2F.3020209@pico-systems.com> References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> <562D79D2.4020207@pico-systems.com> <562E7A2F.3020209@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <03bd01d11024$4c3a47d0$e4aed770$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 26 October 2015 19:09 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Oddball question: really small terminals > > On 10/25/2015 08:32 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2015 8:54 PM, "Jon Elson" wrote: > >> On 10/25/2015 05:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >>> > >>> A pull-out keyboard in the base? I have one too. Would be perfect if > >>> it worked, and I had half a dozen of them! > >>> > >>> > >> No, mine did NOT have a pull-out or fold-down kbd, it was all one > >> piece, > > like a micro-miniaturized ADM3 or similar terminal. Possibly it WAS > > the same as the picture on the Wikipedia article, I couldn't tell the > > scale from that pic. > >> Jon > > Something like the iXO handheld terminal? > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/iXO/iXO_telecomputing-system.jpg > > > > > No, it WAS a Minitel. The Wikipedia picture gives nothing for scale, but there > is a picture of one on a Google pictures collection that shows it on a desk with > a regular keyboard and LCD screen, and you can see how small the thing > really was. > > Jon Televideo made small terminals, PT102 and "Personal Terminal". I found a pic here:- http://s11.photobucket.com/user/ballsandy/media/Computer%20related/100_2308.jpg.html but there are more about if you google.... Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 14:46:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:46:10 +0000 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562DDBD2.5040207@sydex.com> References: <562C6236.4070202@sydex.com> <4919E5D2-3F4C-479C-B98D-F9C04D869A47@gmail.com> <20151025200539.GJ8939@gmail.com> <562DAF94.7020202@sydex.com> , <562DDBD2.5040207@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, the Sony OA-D32 drives. Single-sided 600 RPM. One *could* argue, > that, given the data rate, it's already "high density" (of a sort). I I would say it's normal double density (the spacing of the flux transitions on the disk is the same as on a PC 720K disk) but a high data rate due to the double spindle speed. There's a double-head version too. Not surprisingly I've worked on a lot of these drives, HP used them in many of their HPIB disk units. There was a later half-height version (not a high density drive, same format as the full height ones) which shares a lot of parts with the Apple 800K drive. -tony From archer174 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 12:03:20 2015 From: archer174 at gmail.com (Brian Archer) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:03:20 -0700 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Toby, I'll try to post some photos in a week or 2. Rob has asked me to make some internal load boards for him so I can show more details while I'm at it. The bulb is the best option in my opinion and seems to work just fine without additional cooling in the cube. -- Brian On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-10-26 1:02 AM, Brian Archer wrote: > >> Even a 10W resistor will get really hot. I embed two 5W resistors into a >> pentium class CPU cooler for a good compromise on space/thermal concerns. >> You can see a pic on my site here: >> http://asterontech.com/Asterontech/next_adb_conversion.html >> >> > Hi Brian > > I did see your mod while looking around for info. > > I'd prefer not to mod the soundbox so my options seem to be your internal > backplane load board ( > http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3616&highlight=load+board > ) or maybe a small load board inline to the monitor cable? > > It looks like ambient cooling is sufficient for the version shown here? > > Thanks very much for the excellent info you've posted so far! > > --Toby > > Internal to the cube, I've found using a 5W appliance bulb to be the >> easiest. >> >> -- >> Brian Archer >> \ >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 26 15:57:01 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 16:57:01 -0400 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> <52ECAFFA-E400-478F-B62A-A93B8AA12A4A@ieee.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026105811.03ddb2d0@juno.com> <9BB8563B-22A7-40A9-BB4B-9F4ED1C18FEB@comcast.net> <562E48E9.9000502@update.uu.se> <7.0.1.0.2.20151026121119.03d82e98@juno.com> <562E53B0.7080603@dds.nl> <8BFBDFC8-7DBB-4992-A0C0-C456A0C17C35@gmail.com> <562E687B.5000408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <562E939D.1010704@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-26 2:32 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Not sure how much of a noob you are, although you repeatedly claim to be > one so just on the safe side we'll cover some Engineering for Poets (or > Programmers) to reassure you ;) -- > > V = I * R > Power (watts) = I * V > > You know the voltage of the monitor. You know the resistance of your > resistor. So, you also know the maximum power the resistor needs to be > rated to dissipate. > > If the spec says the single air-cooled resistor you're buying is good to > dissipate X watts into ambient temperature Y, I'd just go ahead and believe > it. > > Make sure the numbers work out and you're fine, no heavy duty HVAC needed. > :-P Yes, I got that far, and I got the same figure Mike did: 7.2W. Should I put that on one (say 10W) part, or copy Brian's technique and spread over multiple resistors? Now to see about building the board... Thanks for everyone's inputs. --Toby > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2015-10-26 1:23 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> >>> This thread took a turn for the absurd. Oil? Water? What a practical >>> bunch of people. /s >>> >>> They make resistors with adequate cooling... Almost as if they're >>> rated for a certain number of watts of dissipation and you can buy >>> them based on that. They are resistors after all. >>> >>> And if they overheat-- oh wait, they're heavy duty resistors, not >>> ICs. Get a couple, put them in a metal project box, put it inline >>> with the cable, and call it a day. >>> >> >> Damn, I already ordered a pile of HVAC gear. >> >> j/k - yeah that was what I was basically planning, Ian ... just as a noob, >> I'm not totally confident with what a single air cooled part can dissipate. >> >> (The thread was kind of interesting anyway!) >> >> --Toby >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 26, 2015, at 09:24, simon wrote: >>>> >>>> please skip this ridicule and grab yourself a couple of headlights from >>>> a car. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26-10-15 17:16, Dale H. Cook wrote: >>>>> My recommendation of oil is based upon my decades of experience with >>>>> broadband dummy loads from 60 watts to 2.5 kilowatts. The dummy loads that >>>>> I have worked with for medium wave and below and from 5 kilowatts down have >>>>> all been convection air cooled. Broadband dummy loads that I have used for >>>>> higher powers (up to 25 kilowatts) have been forced air cooled. >>>>> >>>>> I prefer to stick with what I have experience with. As for water, YMMV. >>>>> >>>>> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >>>>> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Met vriendelijke Groet, >>>> >>>> Simon Claessen >>>> drukknop.nl >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 15:58:25 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:58:25 -0500 Subject: filtering? In-Reply-To: <562DDFAB.5040202@dds.nl> References: <562DDFAB.5040202@dds.nl> Message-ID: <20151026205825.GO8939@gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015, simon wrote: > Hi All, > > it seems that some of my messages do not get through to the list. Is there a > filter on this list of some sort? Someone who knows more should chime in, but I believe messages to the list go through a human filter based on how on-topic they are, before being dispatched to either cctalk ONLY or cctalk+cctech. -- Eric Christopherson From j_hoppe at t-online.de Mon Oct 26 16:02:29 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:02:29 +0100 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> Rob, Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. Hope this helps. Joerg Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: > Hi Guys > > OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: > > PDP-8/e (Type A) > PDP-8/e (Type B) > PDP-8/f > PDP-8/m > > Existing orders price as pre-paid > New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes > /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra > screen for the logos. > > There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone > > Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. > > New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. > Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Oct 26 16:06:11 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:06:11 +0100 Subject: filtering? In-Reply-To: <20151026205825.GO8939@gmail.com> References: <562DDFAB.5040202@dds.nl> <20151026205825.GO8939@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562E95C3.4010506@ljw.me.uk> On 26/10/15 21:58, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015, simon wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> it seems that some of my messages do not get through to the list. Is there a >> filter on this list of some sort? > Someone who knows more should chime in, but I believe messages to the > list go through a human filter based on how on-topic they are, before > being dispatched to either cctalk ONLY or cctalk+cctech. > Yes, usually me. But I don't think that was Simon's problem. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 16:09:38 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 21:09:38 +0000 Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again In-Reply-To: <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> References: <562D4984.5080704@telegraphics.com.au> <562D59C8.1060808@telegraphics.com.au> <562D67AB.5080809@telegraphics.com.au> <8B079F1C-8DAB-4D3C-A332-9EC0DCC0FEDD@gmail.com> <562D7A30.60702@telegraphics.com.au> <562D9402.9070106@telegraphics.com.au> <562E2E00.7090500@telegraphics.com.au>, <71EFA6EB-A4DE-40CE-8E4E-72E4B2421A26@comcast.net> Message-ID: > My favorite low tech dummy load is the one my father came up with: a couple of > resistors (carbon composite is best, carbon film or metal film will do), 1-2 watt size, > in a jar filled with water. Works just fine for 100 watts or so, and is useable not just > for power supplies but for HF transmitter testing. Why am I thinking of the Heathkit Cantenna? -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 26 17:43:52 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Model 152 PSU dummy loads - Re: NeXT Cube - powers on briefly then off again Message-ID: <20151026224352.9FDA118C10B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ian Finder > so just on the safe side we'll cover some Engineering for Poets (or > Programmers) ROFL! Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 26 18:12:04 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:12:04 +0000 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: <562E5E5E.5080408@flippers.com> Message-ID: On 26/10/2015 17:09, "John Robertson" wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > Perhaps one final test for your 2332s is to do a Diode Test on the pins > relative to the ground pin (pin 12) and Vcc pin (24). These should sow > either open or something like 0.6 or higher voltage drop across the pins > - exchange the probes to check both directions. I'll make up a small wiring harness that'll let me do that, it'll give me something to do while I'm waiting for my lady to ring :) > If your gates all read OK (check between Vcc and GND as well!), then it > might be that the brand of 2332 you have simply draws more current than > your programmer likes. What brand is the PROM? Perhaps it is in one of > our reference book libraries... They're all stock MOS 2332 PROMs used in every CBM PET. Mike's already linked to the archive and tonight I've successfully burnt the 8032-flavour PETTEST.BIN so my programmer is happy with Ti 2532JL EEPROMS that I liberated from work. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 26 18:53:02 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:53:02 +0000 Subject: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732 In-Reply-To: <562E5E5E.5080408@flippers.com> Message-ID: On 26/10/2015 17:09, "John Robertson" wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > Perhaps one final test for your 2332s is to do a Diode Test on the pins > relative to the ground pin (pin 12) and Vcc pin (24). These should sow > either open or something like 0.6 or higher voltage drop across the pins > - exchange the probes to check both directions. I've just realised what you meant. This means it's late and time I put the meter down for the night :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From simski at dds.nl Mon Oct 26 19:02:54 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:02:54 +0100 Subject: filtering? In-Reply-To: <562E95C3.4010506@ljw.me.uk> References: <562DDFAB.5040202@dds.nl> <20151026205825.GO8939@gmail.com> <562E95C3.4010506@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <562EBF2E.6060500@dds.nl> "imagine traveling beyond time, you entering the cctalk-zone!" OOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOoohhhhhhh!!!! ;-) On 26-10-15 22:06, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 26/10/15 21:58, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015, simon wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> it seems that some of my messages do not get through to the list. Is >>> there a >>> filter on this list of some sort? >> Someone who knows more should chime in, but I believe messages to the >> list go through a human filter based on how on-topic they are, before >> being dispatched to either cctalk ONLY or cctalk+cctech. >> > Yes, usually me. But I don't think that was Simon's problem. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 26 22:05:13 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 03:05:13 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback Message-ID: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I need to get some comments on the following. 1. Would a matt finish be better than the current glossy one? 2. Should the round holes be pre-drilled? Regards Rod From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 22:20:25 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:20:25 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 11:05 PM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > I need to get some comments on the following. > > 1. Would a matt finish be better than the current glossy one? Hard to say, but generally, I think a closer match to the original is better. Is there a reason you want to consider a different finish? Cost? Fingerprints? > 2. Should the round holes be pre-drilled? I would think that the fewer holes that the users have to make in a brittle substance like acrylic, the better. It's easy to crack with a twist-drill, which is what most people have. There are "right ways" to drill it, but it's not wood. Lasers do a nice job of making smooth holes in acrylic. -ethan From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 26 22:28:34 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:28:34 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> On 10/26/2015 8:05 PM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > I need to get some comments on the following. > > 1. Would a matt finish be better than the current glossy one? > 2. Should the round holes be pre-drilled? > > Regards > Rod I would prefer the holes be drilled. It's not easy to drill the plastic as I found out, with small chips around the edges. And that was with a bit made for plastic. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 22:30:46 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:30:46 -0500 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? Message-ID: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> Can anyone confirm whether a Mac IIsi spits out sync-on-green (and only sync-on-green) or not? I've found mixed info on the 'net so far. I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). If it's SoG-only, well, there's my problem :-) If it does output h/vsync like my other Macs then I need to look elsewhere (most likely nonsense NVRAM settings, I expect). cheers Jules From wulfman at wulfman.com Mon Oct 26 22:54:20 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:54:20 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. It kinda melts its way through. On 10/26/2015 8:28 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 10/26/2015 8:05 PM, rod wrote: >> Hi Guys >> I need to get some comments on the following. >> >> 1. Would a matt finish be better than the current glossy one? >> 2. Should the round holes be pre-drilled? >> >> Regards >> Rod > > I would prefer the holes be drilled. It's not easy to drill the > plastic as I found out, with small chips around the edges. > And that was with a bit made for plastic. > > Bob > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 23:38:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 21:38:26 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: > To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on > the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good sharp Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed and a not-too aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. I've done this with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When you're almost through the material, turn it over and complete the hole from the back side. Very clean edges, with no chips at all. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 26 21:53:33 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 02:53:33 +0000 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> Message-ID: <562EE72D.2010609@btinternet.com> Thank you most helpful. Regards Rod On 26/10/15 21:02, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Rob, > > Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: > ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg > > I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation > http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh > > > The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, > a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. > Hope this helps. > > Joerg > > > Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >> Hi Guys >> >> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >> >> PDP-8/e (Type A) >> PDP-8/e (Type B) >> PDP-8/f >> PDP-8/m >> >> Existing orders price as pre-paid >> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >> screen for the logos. >> >> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >> >> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >> >> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 20:48:39 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:48:39 -0500 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> Message-ID: how much? On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Rob, > > Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: > ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg > > I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation > > http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh > > The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, > a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. > Hope this helps. > > Joerg > > > > Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: > >> Hi Guys >> >> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >> >> PDP-8/e (Type A) >> PDP-8/e (Type B) >> PDP-8/f >> PDP-8/m >> >> Existing orders price as pre-paid >> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >> screen for the logos. >> >> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >> >> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >> >> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> >> From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 26 21:58:35 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 02:58:35 +0000 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> Message-ID: <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> H Adrian For the 11/70 ? Rod On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: > how much? > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > >> Rob, >> >> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >> >> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >> >> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >> >> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >> Hope this helps. >> >> Joerg >> >> >> >> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >> >>> Hi Guys >>> >>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>> >>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>> PDP-8/f >>> PDP-8/m >>> >>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>> screen for the logos. >>> >>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>> >>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>> >>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>> >>> Rod Smallwood >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From scaron at umich.edu Tue Oct 27 00:54:36 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:54:36 -0400 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: AFAIK there's nothing special about the video on the IIsi ... pretty sure that if the adapter and monitor will work with i.e. a standard Mac II 640x480x8 NuBus board (or equivalent) it should work with the IIsi. Best, Sean On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Can anyone confirm whether a Mac IIsi spits out sync-on-green (and only > sync-on-green) or not? I've found mixed info on the 'net so far. > > I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't > outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). > > If it's SoG-only, well, there's my problem :-) If it does output h/vsync > like my other Macs then I need to look elsewhere (most likely nonsense > NVRAM settings, I expect). > > cheers > > Jules > > > From steven at malikoff.com Tue Oct 27 01:59:48 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:59:48 +1000 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on >> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. > > If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good sharp > Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed and a > not-too aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. > I've done this with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When > you're almost through the material, turn it over and complete the hole > from the back side. Very clean edges, with no chips at all. > > --Chuck Agree with Chuck, a moderate drilling speed is better, you do _not_ want to melt your way through, you want to cut. And my advice, sadly learnt and forgotten quite a few times, always after drilling a critical part: **** CLAMP THE JOB DOWN! **** If you think you can hold the Perspex with your fingers, you can't and your nice panel piece suddenly catches, climbs up the drill bit in a flash and is wrecked before you can say something nice like 'Oh golly I do wish I had clamped it down!' or words (not) to that effect. For clamps I suggest those newfangled ratchet clamps. I bought some a few years ago and they are the best thing ever. These things ar esuperior to the average old-fashioned G-clamp in almost every way, except for when massive pressure is required. (search 'crescent connect clamp' on eBay, the 12" ones are excellent). And like G-clamps, you can never have enough of these, get some different sizes. Steve. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 27 02:43:44 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 00:43:44 -0700 Subject: Scan of tape pile for Sun system Message-ID: <562F2B30.9010201@jwsss.com> I recently got hands on what is supposed to be a Sun 4/260. INcluded are about 150 QIC tapes or so. I've gotten the fifty or so with labels scanned (labels on the tapes) so far and will make up a list soon. A lot of them have broken rubber bands, but the few that I could move by hand moved w/o indicating that the tape media was bad. I'm assuming all the rubber bands are shot. Anyway the labels make them seem worthwhile. Highlights are Ciprico Rimfire 3500 and Interphase drivers. There seems to be one set of Sunbin 3.0 tapes in the pile. So far the other release sets are incomplete. The second tape has 3 out of 5 tapes, but at least includes the boot tape. Also a driver for TTI vme bus (not sure what that is). AnDaTaco Optical disk drivers. Perfect Byte EXB-8200 SCSI driver. There are also compilers for C (Mercury), and for Fortran (Sun) . Also VXworks. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4AXJXpUCE-hRS1sSGlUOFIyNnc&usp=sharing Sorry for the bloated pdf. posted it for the impatient. You may have to download it to view it at all, 54mb right now. I will transcribe a full list of all of the tapes I have in ascii form in the next few days, but wanted to get opinions on whether this already exists somewhere else. Thanks Jim From simski at dds.nl Tue Oct 27 03:05:45 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 09:05:45 +0100 Subject: Caps. Was: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562F3059.8010806@dds.nl> did you replace the caps on the motherboard. those machines are in the suspect zone, like the IIci, IIcx and the like. On most of them the aluminium caps have gone bad and are leaking on the board, inflicting all kinds of damage. simon On 27-10-15 06:54, Sean Caron wrote: > AFAIK there's nothing special about the video on the IIsi ... pretty sure > that if the adapter and monitor will work with i.e. a standard Mac II > 640x480x8 NuBus board (or equivalent) it should work with the IIsi. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Can anyone confirm whether a Mac IIsi spits out sync-on-green (and only >> sync-on-green) or not? I've found mixed info on the 'net so far. >> >> I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't >> outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). >> >> If it's SoG-only, well, there's my problem :-) If it does output h/vsync >> like my other Macs then I need to look elsewhere (most likely nonsense >> NVRAM settings, I expect). >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> >> > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 27 04:08:16 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 09:08:16 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <562F3F00.7050400@btinternet.com> Hi Yes clamp it down. I have a pillar drill and that has a table that the workpiece can be clamped to. This means they are at right angles to each other. So the drill bit works as designed. Sharpen or replace drill bits if they get worn. Next start small and work up in drill size. There are tables for speed, feed, size of drill and type of material. As my old school metalwork master would say "more speed less feed". Whilst you may not be able to judge feed rate because it involves time. Slower feed is better. Rod On 27/10/15 06:59, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on >>> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. >> If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good sharp >> Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed and a >> not-too aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. >> I've done this with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When >> you're almost through the material, turn it over and complete the hole >> from the back side. Very clean edges, with no chips at all. >> >> --Chuck > Agree with Chuck, a moderate drilling speed is better, you do _not_ want > to melt your way through, you want to cut. > And my advice, sadly learnt and forgotten quite a few times, always after > drilling a critical part: > > **** CLAMP THE JOB DOWN! **** > > If you think you can hold the Perspex with your fingers, you can't and > your nice panel piece suddenly catches, climbs up the drill bit in a flash > and is wrecked before you can say something nice like 'Oh golly I do wish > I had clamped it down!' or words (not) to that effect. > > For clamps I suggest those newfangled ratchet clamps. I bought some a few years > ago and they are the best thing ever. These things ar esuperior to the > average old-fashioned G-clamp in almost every way, except for when massive > pressure is required. (search 'crescent connect clamp' on eBay, the 12" ones > are excellent). And like G-clamps, you can never have enough of these, get > some different sizes. > > Steve. > From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Oct 27 05:27:18 2015 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:27:18 +1100 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > On 27 Oct 2015, at 5:59 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > And my advice, sadly learnt and forgotten quite a few times, always after > drilling a critical part: > > **** CLAMP THE JOB DOWN! **** +1 on Steven's advice, having learned this lesson the hard-way. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 07:12:43 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:12:43 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: There are special bits for plastics, and they work quite well. Regular bits are troublesome on most plastics. -- Will On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 12:38 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >> >> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on >> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. > > > If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good sharp > Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed and a not-too > aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. I've done this > with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When you're almost through > the material, turn it over and complete the hole from the back side. Very > clean edges, with no chips at all. > > --Chuck > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Oct 27 08:53:08 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 08:53:08 -0500 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> >Paul Berger wrote: > >On 2015-10-26 11:38 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> >On 10/24/2015 09:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? >> >> I went around all the local places that I could think of a couple of >> years ago and bought up whatever stock of floppies that I could find >> (and picking sure were slim). Quite a few boxes of 3.5" HD, a few >> boxes of 5.25" DD, but zero 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD. > With regard to 5 1/4" DD media, a couple of decades ago, I rescued a few hundred RX50 type media from a DEC system which I have not had a chance to look at. Eventually, they will hopefully be copied at which point they could be made available for the postage to send them. Note that I am in Toronto (M2R 3G3). So please send a note if this media is still needed and I will be sure to hold onto the floppies. NOTE that all are obviously USED. >> 3.5" HD media just killed off the use of 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD, I >> suppose. I'm not sure what the reason for my finding a few boxes of >> 5.25" DD was, though - perhaps it was just produced in sufficient >> volume for there to still be a few survivors kicking around. > I also have a few dozen 5 1/4" HD floppies which are also DEC RX33 media along with a few dozen 3.5" HD media which are also DEC RX23 media. These RX23 media still be available in reasonable quantities since they were probably the last of the floppy media which was widely used when a 3.5" HD floppy drive was still a popular item. NOTE that all are obviously USED. >> I've never had any luck finding used disks anywhere locally; people >> are a bit too concerned about data theft these days, and all of that >> seems to go straight to landfill. > > Not long ago I bought a 100 from floppydisk.com for use with my > vintage HP's they where reputed to be used but looked like new to me. > They seem to work fine, I have not had any fail to format or fail in use. I am not interested for myself, but which type of floppy media were they? I probably have about 500 hundred 8" floppy media some of which are already LLF (Low Level Formatted) to the IBM standard of SSSD or 488 blocks. A few have even been LLF with DSDD (Double-Sided, Double-Density) even though they have only the Single-Sided Index hole since I have a switch on my DSD 880/30 which supports using an 8" floppy that has the Single-Sided index hole as an 8" Double-Sided floppy. In DEC naming convention, a SSSD 8" floppy is an RX01 LLF, a SSDD 8" floppy is an RX02 LLF and a DSDD 8" floppy is an RX03 LLF. The DSD 880/30 has a single RX03 floppy drive. The DPDT switch which I installed supports the use of an 8" floppy with the index hole in the Single-Sided location to be used and detected by the RX03 drive as if the index hole was in the Double-Sided position - which avoids the need to punch a second pair of holes. For those individuals who are using RT-11, my DYX.SYS (RX02 device driver) supports the use of a bounce buffer which is required when the user buffer is in Extended Memory above the 256 KB boundary. I have mentioned this in the past, but it seems that no one uses the DYX.SYS under RT-11 any more. In an emergency, it is always possible to use DUP to copy the complete floppy media to a small 512 KB file on a drive which supports 22-bit user addresses which is usually available at least on the system drive for RT-11 to be able to run a virtual job that requires low memory overlays. Note that this DYX.SYS is not ready for general release since it still does not make use of Extended Memory instead of a very large buffer in Low Memory. But in an absolute emergency, it could still me made available. Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 07:58:53 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:58:53 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <858fa93f941c61a2019da957a8bcac4f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>, Message-ID: > > And my advice, sadly learnt and forgotten quite a few times, always after > > drilling a critical part: > > > > **** CLAMP THE JOB DOWN! **** > +1 on Steven's advice, having learned this lesson the hard-way. I'll second (third? nth?) that! I was once told that the majority of accidents in industrial workshops over here were caused by the drill press/pillar drill, not things like lathes and milling machines. Simply because it was treated like a large electric drill, the workpiece wasn't clamped, the drill bit bit into the workpiece and it spun round out of control. First rule of any machine (or even power) tool, make sure the workpiece is clamped. -tony From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 08:10:31 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:10:31 +0000 Subject: PET mono screens Message-ID: Hi folks, ROM problems aside does anyone know of a way I can test the actual CRT? Last night I borrowed the screen from another PET just to see if I get a garbage pattern from the board I'm repairing, but this one stays similarly dark so I need to sanity check both of them. Back when I was fixing my broken TRS80s I could use the CRT from a B&W TV, is there anything oddball about the PET CRT that would stop me going the other way and putting the tube in one of my spare TVs? Ta! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 08:33:20 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:33:20 +0000 Subject: PET mono screens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ROM problems aside does anyone know of a way I can test the actual CRT? By 'CRT' I assume you mean the evacuated glass thing. The term is alas also misused to mean 'monitor' [...] > Back when I was fixing my broken TRS80s I could use the CRT from a B&W TV, > is there anything oddball about the PET CRT that would stop me going the > other way and putting the tube in one of my spare TVs? There's nothing odd AFAIK about the Pet CRT. I am pretty sure it's one of the common ones with a modified B7G base (7 pins) and a 12V-ish heater. Before you go to all that trouble, why do you think it has failed? In all my time of working on classic computers I've had exactly one mono CRT fail (and no colour ones). Fail meaning 'gives nothing on the screen' -- I've had a few with phosphor burn, or with low emission. But those gave an image, albeit a dim one. It is generally a lot quicker to see if the CRT is getting sensible voltages (and if it is, and you still get nothing to then suspect the CRT) than to swap it out. Also make sure the heater is glowing (you can generally see the glow from the back end of the electron gun either through the side of the tube neck, or in the pinch-off tube in the middle of the socket connector) -tony Ta! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 08:47:20 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:47:20 -0300 Subject: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer) In-Reply-To: <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> References: <562E3AD4.4070306@gmail.com> <562E3C2A.2040701@gmail.com> <562F81C4.4000204@compsys.to> Message-ID: <562F8068.5030604@gmail.com> On 2015-10-27 10:53 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Paul Berger wrote: > >> >On 2015-10-26 11:38 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> >On 10/24/2015 09:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies? >>> >>> I went around all the local places that I could think of a couple of >>> years ago and bought up whatever stock of floppies that I could find >>> (and picking sure were slim). Quite a few boxes of 3.5" HD, a few >>> boxes of 5.25" DD, but zero 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD. >> > With regard to 5 1/4" DD media, a couple of decades ago, I rescued a > few hundred > RX50 type media from a DEC system which I have not had a chance to > look at. > Eventually, they will hopefully be copied at which point they could be > made available > for the postage to send them. Note that I am in Toronto (M2R 3G3). > So please > send a note if this media is still needed and I will be sure to hold > onto the floppies. > NOTE that all are obviously USED. > >>> 3.5" HD media just killed off the use of 3.5" DD and 5.25" HD, I >>> suppose. I'm not sure what the reason for my finding a few boxes of >>> 5.25" DD was, though - perhaps it was just produced in sufficient >>> volume for there to still be a few survivors kicking around. >> > I also have a few dozen 5 1/4" HD floppies which are also DEC RX33 media > along with a few dozen 3.5" HD media which are also DEC RX23 media. > These RX23 media still be available in reasonable quantities since > they were > probably the last of the floppy media which was widely used when a > 3.5" HD > floppy drive was still a popular item. NOTE that all are obviously USED. > >>> I've never had any luck finding used disks anywhere locally; people >>> are a bit too concerned about data theft these days, and all of that >>> seems to go straight to landfill. >> >> Not long ago I bought a 100 from floppydisk.com for use with my >> vintage HP's they where reputed to be used but looked like new to >> me. They seem to work fine, I have not had any fail to format or >> fail in use. > > I am not interested for myself, but which type of floppy media were they? > > I probably have about 500 hundred 8" floppy media some of which > are already LLF (Low Level Formatted) to the IBM standard of > SSSD or 488 blocks. A few have even been LLF with DSDD > (Double-Sided, Double-Density) even though they have only the > Single-Sided Index hole since I have a switch on my DSD 880/30 > which supports using an 8" floppy that has the Single-Sided index > hole as an 8" Double-Sided floppy. In DEC naming convention, > a SSSD 8" floppy is an RX01 LLF, a SSDD 8" floppy is an RX02 > LLF and a DSDD 8" floppy is an RX03 LLF. > > The DSD 880/30 has a single RX03 floppy drive. The DPDT switch > which I installed supports the use of an 8" floppy with the index hole > in the Single-Sided location to be used and detected by the RX03 > drive as if the index hole was in the Double-Sided position - which > avoids the need to punch a second pair of holes. > > For those individuals who are using RT-11, my DYX.SYS (RX02 > device driver) supports the use of a bounce buffer which is required > when the user buffer is in Extended Memory above the 256 KB > boundary. I have mentioned this in the past, but it seems that no > one uses the DYX.SYS under RT-11 any more. In an emergency, > it is always possible to use DUP to copy the complete floppy media > to a small 512 KB file on a drive which supports 22-bit user addresses > which is usually available at least on the system drive for RT-11 to > be able to run a virtual job that requires low memory overlays. > Note that this DYX.SYS is not ready for general release since it still > does not make use of Extended Memory instead of a very large > buffer in Low Memory. But in an absolute emergency, it could still > me made available. > > Jerome Fine The ones I got where the 3.5" DSDD as used in 9122 mod D and S and several disk diskette combo machines and also the 9114 HPIL drive. I would really like to get a HP 9895 8" drive but they seem to be few and far between. Paul. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 09:38:11 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:38:11 +0000 Subject: PET mono screens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 October 2015 at 13:33, tony duell wrote: > By 'CRT' I assume you mean the evacuated glass thing. The term is alas also > misused to mean 'monitor' > Indeed, the glass thing. > Before you go to all that trouble, why do you think it has failed? In all > my time of working > on classic computers I've had exactly one mono CRT fail (and no colour > ones). Fail meaning > 'gives nothing on the screen' -- I've had a few with phosphor burn, or > with low emission. But > those gave an image, albeit a dim one. > Purely because not only do I get nothing on screen but if I turn both the brightness and sub-bright up full I can't see any glow or raster lines. I've got at least 3 monitor 'units' that do this, one of them also smokes but we'll leave that one for now, I guess it's old enough :) The PSU is giving 22VAC for the screen and the monitor pins on the motherboard give sensible voltages IIRC, The heater on one screen glows so that's the one I'm using. One problem at a time I guess, tonight I'll double-check the CRTC since I'm assuming if that's dead I'll definitely not get even the garbage on screen. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 27 11:33:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 11:33:38 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> On 10/26/2015 11:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the >> drill press on >> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened >> drill bit. > > If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with > a good sharp Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say > 750 RPM) speed and a not-too aggressive feed.. No > melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. I've done this > with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When > you're almost through the material, turn it over and > complete the hole from the back side. Very clean edges, > with no chips at all The ultimate way to drill holes in Plexi is with an end mill. It can make a slight chipping when it punches through the back, so you either need a backstop material or lighten up the feed a bit just before it goes through. (This of course requires a center-cutting end mill, I prefer 4-flute for this.) Even better than just plunging an end mill is to use a CNC mill and a cutter smaller than the required hole diameter. You use a pocket boring routine, set up for "climb milling" and after working through the material in several depth steps just less then the desired diameter, does a finish pass at full depth to bring it to final hole size. This takes longer to describe than it actually takes the machine to perform, and leaves beautiful holes. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 27 11:59:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 09:59:39 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562FAD7B.3050008@sydex.com> On 10/27/2015 09:33 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > The ultimate way to drill holes in Plexi is with an end mill. It can > make a slight chipping when it punches through the back, so you > either need a backstop material or lighten up the feed a bit just > before it goes through. (This of course requires a center-cutting > end mill, I prefer 4-flute for this.) Sure, but I'm assuming that the original poster doesn't have a Bridgeport mill at his disposal. But a drill press is quite within the budget of most hobbyists. I'd think that if you already owned a vertical mill, you'd know how to work with plastics. Back in the day, I loved hanging out at the model shop just watching the action and trying to second-guess the guys there. Building a case with curves such as side contoured to a 200 inch radius was serious business. The finished product was in clear acrylic, all ready to go to the mold makers. Similarly, making the die set for punching sector holes in a 8" floppy would be child's play for someone with a wire EDM rig in his garage. But not every hobbyist can afford one. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 27 12:07:35 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:07:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <76F31BF2-4575-4D53-A6DB-DBB269CF21D2@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2015, at 12:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 10/26/2015 11:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on >>> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. >> >> If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good sharp Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed and a not-too aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly shavings. I've done this with sizes down to about 1/4", but no smaller. When you're almost through the material, turn it over and complete the hole from the back side. Very clean edges, with no chips at all > The ultimate way to drill holes in Plexi is with an end mill. It can make a slight chipping when it punches through the back, so you either need a backstop material or lighten up the feed a bit just before it goes through. (This of course requires a center-cutting end mill, I prefer 4-flute for this.) I would think a counterbore would work better, because it doesn't cut on the sides, only on the bottom. paul From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 27 02:03:46 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 00:03:46 -0700 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562F21D2.4030508@jwsss.com> On 10/26/2015 7:58 PM, rod wrote: > H Adrian > > For the 11/70 ? > Rod, I'd be interested in the PDP 8/M and the PDP 8/E panels. thanks Jim > Rod > > > On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> how much? >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> >>> Rob, >>> >>> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >>> >>> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >>> >>> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >>> >>> >>> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >>> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Joerg >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >>> >>>> Hi Guys >>>> >>>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>>> >>>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>>> PDP-8/f >>>> PDP-8/m >>>> >>>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>>> screen for the logos. >>>> >>>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>>> >>>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>>> >>>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 12:34:21 2015 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:34:21 -0700 Subject: FW: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (pictures removed) From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:14:45 -0700 Wayne (ttyparts.com) and I had a disaster of a shipment on a ASR33, Fed Ex Ground did us no favors. In spite of a handcrafted wooden case, clearly marked UP arrows and FRAGILE, these guys tossed this thing around. The printer shipping bolts were installed. I told Wayne, are you sure you put them in? because I could not find them. There they were, in the bottom of the crate, sheared off. Obviously they dropped and tumbled his custom TTY wood crate, that he has used for years. HERE IS key is stuck, the printer rammed into the keyboard and bent it horizontal and vertical, fixed that. Wayne sent a test tape and we verify the printer is OK. Keys still do not print the correct letters, and tonight I find an actuator wire on the keyboard is broken. If anybody ships a TTY, I recommend this: Make the box a, 3x, 4x TTY sized double wall cardboard box, filled with peanuts, and the TTY nestled in the core of the surrounding peanut cushion. They are going to shake and drop it, and all that foam and peanut will give the printer a cushion and lower the G's the TTY and printer will experience. An 'UP ARROW' means nothing, nor does 'FRAGILE' Wayne's idea of a strong wood crate may have worked in the past, but today, it means 'don't care' this thing is packed for rough handling, they will toss it, drop it, tumble it because it is heavy as shit, and this wood case looks like it is built for this abuse. Wayne is a super guy, and I highly recommend anybody buying teletypes work thru him. he completely redid my machine, took it down for a total refurbrishment, and built it back up. Weeks of testing and alighnment too. This guy is the best - and I can attest to this on all the time he has spent recovering from the shipping guys to get me online Randy KF7CJW From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 27 12:52:55 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:52:55 -0500 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562FAD7B.3050008@sydex.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> <562FAD7B.3050008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <562FB9F7.2060900@pico-systems.com> On 10/27/2015 11:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/27/2015 09:33 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The ultimate way to drill holes in Plexi is with an end >> mill. It can >> make a slight chipping when it punches through the back, >> so you >> either need a backstop material or lighten up the feed a >> bit just >> before it goes through. (This of course requires a >> center-cutting >> end mill, I prefer 4-flute for this.) > > Sure, but I'm assuming that the original poster doesn't > have a Bridgeport mill at his disposal. But a drill press > is quite within the budget of most hobbyists. I'd think > that if you already owned a vertical mill, you'd know how > to work with plastics. > You CAN use an end mill in a drill press if you are careful. You get no self-centering, so the work must be **SECURELY** clamped, as the cutter may try to walk. But, you'll get perfectly round, smooth holes. Twist drills tend to wander and make triangular and slightly helical holes. Obviously, you can only do this with small size end mills in a drill press. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 27 12:58:02 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:58:02 -0700 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98A8C441-D232-4AF8-9F5A-5C99695E7EBD@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > > If anybody ships a TTY, I recommend this: Make the box a, 3x, 4x TTY sized double wall cardboard box, filled with peanuts, and the TTY nestled in the core of the surrounding peanut cushion. They are going to shake and drop it, and all that foam and peanut will give the printer a cushion and lower the G's the TTY and printer will experience. An 'UP ARROW' means nothing, nor does 'FRAGILE' NO! Peanuts do *nothing* except take up space when there a multiple *small* items. The heavy item will ?settle? and have nothing surrounding it. The peanuts act a fluid during shipping. What I do when shipping heavy items: a) have a well constructed heavy crate b) use packaged expanding foam to completely immobilize the item. This stuff (when used properly) will provide some cushion and will also ensure that the item does not move. c) mark crate up and fragile Another alternative that I?ve used prior to expanding foam packages is to use foam padding. Again you want to fill up *all* the space so that the item can?t move. TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 12:59:21 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:59:21 +0000 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > experience. An 'UP ARROW' means nothing, nor does 'FRAGILE' I thought 'Fragile' meant 'Use this package for playing American Football' This it not a new problem, it probably pre-dates the ASR33. Flanders and Swann (think of them as being the British equivalent of Tom Lehrer) said The new way to split the atom. Send it through the post marked 'Fragile' -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 27 13:05:42 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 11:05:42 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562FB9F7.2060900@pico-systems.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> <562FAD7B.3050008@sydex.com> <562FB9F7.2060900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562FBCF6.1070100@sydex.com> On 10/27/2015 10:52 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > You CAN use an end mill in a drill press if you are careful. You get > no self-centering, so the work must be **SECURELY** clamped, as the > cutter may try to walk. But, you'll get perfectly round, smooth > holes. Twist drills tend to wander and make triangular and slightly > helical holes. > > Obviously, you can only do this with small size end mills in a drill > press. A good sharp forstner bit, by its very construction guarantees perfectly round holes--and it's not self-feeding, so you can cut as slowly as you'd like. Awhile back, I made a tape lubrication jig consisting of several pieces of 5/8" OD brass tube with small holes drilled (think #70 drill) mounted in 3/8" acrylic with a second 3/8" piece to form a bottom. Absolutely water-tight fit with no adhesives--the tube was simply press-fitted into the round holes. The bottom was attached to the upper piece using stainless 4-40 machine screws. It worked fairly well. --Chuck From pete at pski.net Tue Oct 27 13:06:11 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 14:06:11 -0400 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> > On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:59 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> experience. An 'UP ARROW' means nothing, nor does 'FRAGILE' > > I thought 'Fragile' meant 'Use this package for playing American Football' > > This it not a new problem, it probably pre-dates the ASR33. Flanders and Swann > (think of them as being the British equivalent of Tom Lehrer) said > > The new way to split the atom. Send it through the post marked 'Fragile' > > -tony Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') is Italian for ?major award?. :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 27 13:16:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 11:16:08 -0700 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <98A8C441-D232-4AF8-9F5A-5C99695E7EBD@shiresoft.com> References: <98A8C441-D232-4AF8-9F5A-5C99695E7EBD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <562FBF68.6020404@sydex.com> On 10/27/2015 10:58 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Another alternative that I?ve used prior to expanding foam packages > is to use foam padding. Again you want to fill up *all* the space so > that the item can?t move. I like to use extruded polystyrene insulation panels. Here it's available from most home improvement stores in 8' x 2' or 4' sizes and up to 2" thick. Basically score-and-snap and very tough stuff--not given to making "crumbs" either. I build a "box within a box" for heavy items and firmly brace whatever I'm sending so that neither it, nor any component parts can move in transit. Double-walled corrugated cardboard, as mentioned reinforced, if necessary by 1/4" plywood. I suspect that polyiso insulation board would work as well, but I've never tried it. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 27 13:45:12 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:45:12 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 panels. Feedback In-Reply-To: <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> References: <562EE9E9.4050405@btinternet.com> <562EEF62.9000808@sbcglobal.net> <562EF56C.4090704@wulfman.com> <562EFFC2.7050601@sydex.com> <562FA762.50701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <562FC638.6050105@btinternet.com> OK Here's my two cents worth. First put tape across the area. Make sure it wont take the silk screen printing off. Get a small drill. A 1mm PCB drill is a good choice. Drill through with the drill set to a fast but not too fast speed. Turn the work over and re-clamp it. open up the hole but don't drill right through, Turn back to the side you started with and drill right through. Rod On 27/10/15 16:33, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/26/2015 11:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10/26/2015 08:54 PM, wulfman wrote: >>> To effectively drill in plastics you need to run the drill press on >>> the highest speed you can and use a freshly sharpened drill bit. >> >> If this is Perspex/Plexiglas, I've had great results with a good >> sharp Forstner bit in my drill press at medium (say 750 RPM) speed >> and a not-too aggressive feed.. No melting, just lots of crumbly >> shavings. I've done this with sizes down to about 1/4", but no >> smaller. When you're almost through the material, turn it over and >> complete the hole from the back side. Very clean edges, with no >> chips at all > The ultimate way to drill holes in Plexi is with an end mill. It can > make a slight chipping when it punches through the back, so you either > need a backstop material or lighten up the feed a bit just before it > goes through. (This of course requires a center-cutting end mill, I > prefer 4-flute for this.) > > Even better than just plunging an end mill is to use a CNC mill and a > cutter smaller than the required hole diameter. > You use a pocket boring routine, set up for "climb milling" and after > working through the material in several depth steps just less then the > desired diameter, does a finish pass at full depth to bring it to > final hole size. This takes longer to describe than it actually takes > the machine to perform, and leaves beautiful holes. > > Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 27 14:22:16 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:22:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> References: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> Message-ID: <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 27 October 2015 at 18:06 Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > > > On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:59 PM, tony duell wrote: > > > >> experience. An 'UP ARROW' means nothing, nor does 'FRAGILE' > > > > I thought 'Fragile' meant 'Use this package for playing American > > Football' > > > > This it not a new problem, it probably pre-dates the ASR33. Flanders and > > Swann > > (think of them as being the British equivalent of Tom Lehrer) said > > > > The new way to split the atom. Send it through the post marked 'Fragile' > > > > -tony > > Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') is > Italian for ?major award?. :) > > I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has exactly the same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is probably something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 14:25:29 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:25:29 -0400 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> References: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: >> Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') is >> Italian for ?major award?. :) > > I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has exactly the > same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is probably > something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? Movie reference: A Christmas Story. -ethan From pete at pski.net Tue Oct 27 14:30:49 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:30:49 -0400 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> Message-ID: <7C0D0AF6-7133-49D7-BEF4-AD212EFFC9C5@pski.net> > On Oct 27, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: >>> Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') is >>> Italian for ?major award?. :) >> >> I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has exactly the >> same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is probably >> something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? > > Movie reference: A Christmas Story. > > -ethan Yeah, sorry, I just assumed everyone else has that movie memorized line by line. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 27 14:39:22 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:39:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <7C0D0AF6-7133-49D7-BEF4-AD212EFFC9C5@pski.net> References: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <7C0D0AF6-7133-49D7-BEF4-AD212EFFC9C5@pski.net> Message-ID: <881081559.393098.1445974762955.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 27 October 2015 at 19:30 Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > > > On Oct 27, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jarratt RMA > > wrote: > >>> Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') > >>> is > >>> Italian for ?major award?. :) > >> > >> I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has > >> exactly the > >> same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is > >> probably > >> something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? > > > > Movie reference: A Christmas Story. > > > > -ethan > > Yeah, sorry, I just assumed everyone else has that movie memorized line by > line. > > Not to worry, I don't watch many films, so even though I now know the name of the film I still have no idea what the joke is :-) Regards Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 15:08:46 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:08:46 -0500 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> Message-ID: For a 8 e m On Oct 27, 2015 1:21 AM, "rod" wrote: > H Adrian > > For the 11/70 ? > > Rod > > > On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> how much? >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> >> Rob, >>> >>> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >>> >>> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >>> >>> >>> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >>> >>> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >>> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Joerg >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >>> >>> Hi Guys >>>> >>>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>>> >>>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>>> PDP-8/f >>>> PDP-8/m >>>> >>>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>>> screen for the logos. >>>> >>>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>>> >>>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>>> >>>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>>> >>>> Rod Smallwood >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 27 15:09:08 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:09:08 -0700 Subject: videotex projects / was Re: Oddball question: really small terminals In-Reply-To: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> References: <562CF560.7060200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Oct-25, at 8:29 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/24/2015 08:54 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for >> terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and >> coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250. >> >> > I had a thing that was apparently used in France and maybe Canada for telephone directory lookup and similar uses. I believe it was called a Minitel. The French Minitel, and British Prestel, were videotex systems. Canada's national effort of the late-70s/early-80s at a videotex project was Telidon. Telidon resulted in protocol standards (which led to NAPLPS), and some hardware was produced, but it never saw major deployment as the Prestel and Minitel systems did. I'm not aware of any Minitel presence in Canada. Perhaps some terminals made their way here for use as compact terminals in some application or some such. > It had a TINY CRT screen, maybe 5 x 7". It used a standard 40-pin microprocessor and other standard parts. I junked mine because it would randomly reset every minute or so, and I didn't really have a use for it. I think mine was smaller than the one in the Wikipedia article, but it did look similar to that. There are some on eBay, but they are all from France and Belgium. Interface was pure serial RS-232. > > Jon From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Oct 27 15:18:00 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:18:00 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: I'm trying to get my RLV11 working to eventually run my RL02, and am having some trouble. I have a PDP-11/23 in an H9273 backplane. I just got it working reliably without the RLV11 boards installed, so now I'm giving them a try again. Here's my configuration: Down the left side: M8186, M8044, M8044, M8043, M8013, M8014, and M8012 (the BDV11) on the bottom. I don't have the drive connected and am just trying to run the VRLAC0 controller test, which I believe should work without any drives connected. The switches on M8014 are configured to the defaults, according to: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-RLV11-TD-001_RLV11_Controller_Technical_Description_Manual_Mar78.pdf That would be a vector address of 330 and a base address of 174400. Unfortunately, VRLAC0 doesn't look like it can see anything, but I'm not sure I'm reading its output correctly. What follows is the VRLAC0 output. I also looked at 17440 myself and get 005737, though I'm not sure what it should be. This is new territory for me, so any help would be welcome. Thanks! .R VRLAC0 VRLAC0.BIN DRSSM-G2 CVRLA-C-0 CVRLAC RLV11 RL01 DSKLESS DIAGNOSTIC UNIT IS RLV11 RSTRT ADR 145702 DR>START CHANGE HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 UNIT 0 11/23 PROCESSOR (L) Y ? BUS ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 DRIVE (O) 0 ? BR LEVEL (O) 5 ? CHANGE SW (L) ? Y DROP ON ERROR LIMIT (L) N ? AUTOSIZE (L) N ? CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00000 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 017066 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLCS CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00001 ON UNIT 00 TST 002 SUB 000 PC: 017164 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLBA CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00002 ON UNIT 00 TST 003 SUB 000 PC: 017262 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLDA CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00003 ON UNIT 00 TST 004 SUB 000 PC: 017360 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLMP CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00100 ON UNIT 00 TST 005 SUB 000 PC: 017454 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLCS CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00101 ON UNIT 00 TST 006 SUB 000 PC: 017550 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLBA CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00102 ON UNIT 00 TST 007 SUB 000 PC: 017644 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLDA CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 CVRLA SYS FTL ERR 00103 ON UNIT 00 TST 008 SUB 000 PC: 017740 CAN NOT ADDRESS RLMP CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 ILL INTER 004 PC 017770 PS 000341 ILL INTER 004 PC 014460 PS 000005 DR> -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cruff at ruffspot.net Tue Oct 27 13:03:55 2015 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:03:55 -0600 Subject: Distilled water (was re: Model 152 PSU dummy loads) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151027180355.GA32474@clarinet.ruffspot.net> Just to be pedantic, as this is the Internet after all :-), distilled water is a pretty good insulator, but not a "perfect" one. Neutral (pH 7.0) water always has a very small amount of the molecules disassociated into H+ and OH- ions. However, as others have stated, the effective value of the water resistor, compared to the load resistor(s), will be negligible. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 27 15:59:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 Message-ID: <20151027205937.9B06C18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > Peanuts do *nothing* .. The heavy item will "settle" and have nothing > surrounding it. The peanuts act a fluid during shipping. I can attest to this. I bought a largish disk drive, and it was shipped in peanuts. It came out the box at 45 degrees to the sides - it had gone in parallel to the sides. Luckily, no damage ensued, but it was pure luck. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 27 16:11:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151027211159.6FC6518C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > I'm trying to get my RLV11 working Oh, I was going to mention this about the RLV11 - it's a Q18 device. So it _probably_ won't work in a system with more than 256KB of memory (which you don't, at this point, have, though). It would all depend on the OS, whether it understood that it couldn't DMA to anywhere above 256KB. (The controller should work OK in a Q22 system - it just won't drive the high address lines, so they will go to 0 - but it just won't be able to DMA to high memory.) > I have a PDP-11/23 in an H9273 backplane. I just got it working > reliably without the RLV11 boards installed ... > Here's my configuration: > Down the left side: M8186, M8044, M8044, M8043, M8013, M8014, and > M8012 (the BDV11) on the bottom. Here's something to try (to make sure the 8013 is passing grants OK); put the M8013/14 _before_ the M8043, and see if a test which uses interrupts on the DLV11J works. > I also looked at myself and get 005737, though I'm not sure what > it should be. I take it "17440" is a typo for '174400'? Anyway, neither would work: in 11/23 ODT, '174400' is the address of a word of memory, up near the 64K boundary. To get to the device registers, you need to type '774400'. If that doesn't work, the addressing on the RL11 board-set is wrong somehow. Noel PS: Speaking of typing addresses to ODT - My favourite pet 11/23 peeve: there is no way, from ODT, to read/write memory above 256KB! That can only by done by a program! (The 11/73 does not suffer this issue.) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 27 17:12:07 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:12:07 +0000 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <562FF6B7.3020400@btinternet.com> An 8em ? Is that an PDP8/e or PDP8/m or both? On 27/10/15 20:08, Adrian Stoness wrote: > For a 8 e m > On Oct 27, 2015 1:21 AM, "rod" wrote: > >> H Adrian >> >> For the 11/70 ? >> >> Rod >> >> >> On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> how much? >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >>> >>> Rob, >>>> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >>>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >>>> >>>> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >>>> >>>> >>>> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >>>> >>>> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >>>> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >>>> Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Joerg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >>>> >>>> Hi Guys >>>>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>>>> >>>>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>>>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>>>> PDP-8/f >>>>> PDP-8/m >>>>> >>>>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>>>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>>>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>>>> screen for the logos. >>>>> >>>>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>>>> >>>>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>>>> >>>>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>>>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>>>> >>>>> Rod Smallwood >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 17:23:50 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:23:50 -0500 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <20151027205937.9B06C18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151027205937.9B06C18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2015 3:59 PM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > From: Guy Sotomayor > > > Peanuts do *nothing* .. The heavy item will "settle" and have nothing > > surrounding it. The peanuts act a fluid during shipping. > > I can attest to this. I bought a largish disk drive, and it was shipped in > peanuts. It came out the box at 45 degrees to the sides - it had gone in > parallel to the sides. Luckily, no damage ensued, but it was pure luck. > > Noel I'm curious: Does the static from the peanuts noticeably affect electronics? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 17:43:39 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:43:39 -0500 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: <562FF6B7.3020400@btinternet.com> References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> <562FF6B7.3020400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: curious about the price in general im working on a 8i thing but thats totaly different On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 5:12 PM, rod wrote: > An 8em ? Is that an PDP8/e or PDP8/m or both? > > > > On 27/10/15 20:08, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> For a 8 e m >> On Oct 27, 2015 1:21 AM, "rod" wrote: >> >> H Adrian >>> >>> For the 11/70 ? >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> >>> On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> how much? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Rob, >>>> >>>>> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >>>>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >>>>> >>>>> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >>>>> >>>>> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >>>>> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>> >>>>> Joerg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Guys >>>>> >>>>>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>>>>> >>>>>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>>>>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>>>>> PDP-8/f >>>>>> PDP-8/m >>>>>> >>>>>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>>>>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>>>>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>>>>> screen for the logos. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>>>>> >>>>>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>>>>> >>>>>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>>>>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rod Smallwood >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 27 18:19:41 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:19:41 +0000 Subject: Order now ! PDP8 front panels In-Reply-To: References: <562E2E51.5050608@btinternet.com> <562E94E5.5080609@t-online.de> <562EE85B.2080505@btinternet.com> <562FF6B7.3020400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5630068D.9060003@btinternet.com> Hi Price will depend on the total quantity of each type. A guess would be $120 for the 8/e and $130 for the /f or /m Shipping included. Rod On 27/10/15 22:43, Adrian Stoness wrote: > curious about the price in general im working on a 8i thing but thats > totaly different > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 5:12 PM, rod wrote: > >> An 8em ? Is that an PDP8/e or PDP8/m or both? >> >> >> >> On 27/10/15 20:08, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> For a 8 e m >>> On Oct 27, 2015 1:21 AM, "rod" wrote: >>> >>> H Adrian >>>> For the 11/70 ? >>>> >>>> Rod >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27/10/15 01:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> >>>> how much? >>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, J?rg Hoppe >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Rob, >>>>> >>>>>> Here is a high quality PDP-11/70 foto: >>>>>> ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/blinkenbone/pdp1170.jpg >>>>>> >>>>>> I used it for the photographic panel Java simulation >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://blinkenbone.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh >>>>>> >>>>>> The 20MPixel camera was aligned to the axis of the panel, >>>>>> a 105 mm tele non-zoom lens was used for minimal geometric distortion. >>>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joerg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Am 26.10.2015 um 14:44 schrieb rod: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Guys >>>>>> >>>>>>> OK I'm open for orders for the choice of the following: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PDP-8/e (Type A) >>>>>>> PDP-8/e (Type B) >>>>>>> PDP-8/f >>>>>>> PDP-8/m >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Existing orders price as pre-paid >>>>>>> New orders price will be advised based on batch sizes >>>>>>> /f and /m are going to be a few dollars more as they need an extra >>>>>>> screen for the logos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are_twenty slots_ of which _five_ have already gone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ask for the file of designs if you don't have it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. >>>>>>> Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rod Smallwood >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 27 18:30:02 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:30:02 -0500 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: <20151027205937.9B06C18C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <563008FA.60209@pico-systems.com> On 10/27/2015 05:23 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > I'm curious: Does the static from the peanuts noticeably affect > electronics? > Have you ever had them cling to your arms or whatever? Yes, definitely. That's why they have green and pink peanuts, those are supposed to be anti-static. Jon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:42:10 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:42:10 -0500 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> On 10/27/2015 12:54 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > AFAIK there's nothing special about the video on the IIsi ... pretty sure > that if the adapter and monitor will work with i.e. a standard Mac II > 640x480x8 NuBus board (or equivalent) it should work with the IIsi. Hmm, looks like this one has issues, then. I don't have an operational 'scope here, but I did set my meter to the frequency range and put it on both the hsync and the green video line, but it didn't read anything - I'd expect to see something in the tens of KHz range on one or the other. I pulled the NVRAM battery (it was completely dead) and for now have replaced with a 3V pack consisting of two AA cells - I would expect that to be enough (compared to the correct 3.6V battery), but I suppose it's possible that it's not. Anyway, I did the command-option-P-R sequence to reset the NVRAM at startup (and got the second chime to suggest that it had done the reset), but unfortunately no dice. The board caps are visually good - i.e. no obvious leaking/corrosion. All the board fuses check out OK (quite probably not related to the video circuits anyway) +5V and +12V are OK; I've not located a good/simple spot to check for -12V yet. I noticed that there's no W1 jumper fitted. According to section 2.5.7 at http://macfaq.org/hardware/logicboard.shtml there should be if the board is running from the on-board ROMs rather than a ROM SIMM - but if I fit that jumper then I no longer get the startup chime; can anyone confirm that macfaq is correct and I'm supposed to have the jumper fitted if the machine *doesn't* have the SIMM? One final note: the system has a Carrera '040 board fitted in the accelerator slot. The working state of that board is unknown (just like the rest of the machine) - if I remove it for now, do I need to change any jumpers or anything on the main system board so that the on-board '030 will act as primary CPU, or should that happen automatically? I wish I knew at what point the chimes are generated - I don't know if it's just some lowly service processor which produces those, or if it implies that basic ROM, RAM, CPU etc. are all OK for it to ever get that far (talking of which, I haven't tried swapping RAM; I suppose it might be faulty in such a way that it's knocking the video out entirely). cheers Jules From chrise at pobox.com Tue Oct 27 18:46:04 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:46:04 -0500 Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: <7C0D0AF6-7133-49D7-BEF4-AD212EFFC9C5@pski.net> References: <76E61ECD-1F0B-4FBD-B319-EC6A50BA5C99@pski.net> <1035485986.392774.1445973736245.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe23.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> <7C0D0AF6-7133-49D7-BEF4-AD212EFFC9C5@pski.net> Message-ID: <20151027234604.GS28361@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (10/27/2015 at 03:30PM -0400), Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > On Oct 27, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jarratt RMA > > wrote: > >>> Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ?Fra-gee-lee') is > >>> Italian for ?major award?. :) > >> > >> I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has exactly the > >> same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is probably > >> something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? > > > > Movie reference: A Christmas Story. > > > > -ethan > > Yeah, sorry, I just assumed everyone else has that movie memorized line by line. You better be careful here or you'll shoot your eye out. -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 27 19:27:55 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 17:27:55 -0700 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5630168B.4000500@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/15 4:42 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't know if > it's just some lowly service processor nope, just the 68030. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 20:32:51 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:32:51 -0500 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <5630168B.4000500@bitsavers.org> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> <5630168B.4000500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <563025C3.7070205@gmail.com> On 10/27/2015 07:27 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/27/15 4:42 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I don't know if >> it's just some lowly service processor > > nope, just the 68030. Thanks, Al. I'm reasonably confident that it's alive and well, then, but with no video output. Who knows, maybe someone plugged a PC joystick into the video connector, or something :/ Still a bit odd how the presence of the W1 jumper appears to hang the machine though. cheers Jules From auringer at tds.net Tue Oct 27 20:35:32 2015 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:35:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCO Integra Message-ID: <1876024598.25325202.1445996132988.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> Hi All, I ran across the following while cleaning: A set of "draft" manuals for SCO Integra database software. It looks to be a complete manual set in 4 hardbound volumes. Also in the pile are 4 sequentially labeled 5 1/4" floppy disks that have "Dewitt" written on them. I don't have the resources to check the contents of the disks. There is a single page color promotional flyer for SCO Integra. Are these of interest to anyone? Here's a picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/albums/72157660431177871 Available for beer money and shipping from 53714. -Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 27 20:36:55 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:36:55 -0700 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <563026B7.7040406@bitsavers.org> On 10/26/15 8:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't > outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). > The si and cx/ci are old enough that it doesn't support VGA timing. From auringer at tds.net Tue Oct 27 21:00:21 2015 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP Vectra stuff Message-ID: <99700433.25355624.1445997621067.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> All, Also while cleaning I found a box of HP Vectra docs & a couple disks. Docs: Getting Started With the HP BASIC Controller HP 24540B & HP 24541B - Installation Guide 35743 HP Enhanced Graphics Display Installation Guide HP Enhanced Graphics Adapter User's Manual Disks: VECTRA PC UTILITIES AND DRIVERS ENHANCED GRAPHICS ADAPTER - UTILITY DISC All of this in a HP 82301A BASIC Language box. Again, beer money & shipping from 53714. -Jon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 21:10:12 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:10:12 -0500 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <563026B7.7040406@bitsavers.org> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <563026B7.7040406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56302E84.1030008@gmail.com> On 10/27/2015 08:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/26/15 8:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't >> outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). >> > > The si and cx/ci are old enough that it doesn't support VGA timing. Hmm, so strapping pin 7 to pin 10 on the video connector isn't enough to kick it into 640x480 mode like it is with various other Apple hardware? For the 512x384 mode it's certainly not within VGA spec, but I know the system is capable of 640x480, which I'm assuming should be. I'm currently wondering if it's outputting composite sync, though - everything I'd seen suggested it was either SoG or separate h/vsync, but maybe that's wrong and it's neither. cheers J. From j at ckrubin.us Tue Oct 27 21:13:55 2015 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 02:13:55 +0000 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Message-ID: Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is at the Vintage Computer Forum - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I certainly did! Jack From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 27 21:18:43 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:18:43 -0700 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <56302E84.1030008@gmail.com> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <563026B7.7040406@bitsavers.org> <56302E84.1030008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56303083.8000306@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/15 7:10 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/27/2015 08:36 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> On 10/26/15 8:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> I've got a system here which makes encouraging startup noises, but isn't >>> outputting any video to a VGA screen (adapter cable OK with my other Macs). >>> >> >> The si and cx/ci are old enough that it doesn't support VGA timing. > > Hmm, so strapping pin 7 to pin 10 on the video connector isn't enough to kick it into 640x480 mode like it is with various other Apple hardware? > > For the 512x384 mode it's certainly not within VGA spec, but I know the system is capable of 640x480, which I'm assuming should be. I'm currently wondering if it's outputting composite sync, though - > everything I'd seen suggested it was either SoG or separate h/vsync, but maybe that's wrong and it's neither. > > cheers > > J. > > > here is a mirror of the tech note that describes the pinouts and sense codes https://web.archive.org/web/20040222182709/http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/hw_30.html The RBV ASIC in the SI only knows about the original 8 sense codes. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 21:30:58 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:30:58 -0500 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <56303083.8000306@bitsavers.org> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <563026B7.7040406@bitsavers.org> <56302E84.1030008@gmail.com> <56303083.8000306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56303362.5030105@gmail.com> On 10/27/2015 09:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > here is a mirror of the tech note that describes the pinouts and sense codes > > https://web.archive.org/web/20040222182709/http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/hw_30.html > > > The RBV ASIC in the SI only knows about the original 8 sense codes. I just got it running a minute ago! I found a note on Herb's retrotechnology site: "The newer Macintosh II Video Cards and Macintosh IIci built-in video require that pin 4 (SENSE0) be connected to Ground to signal the connection of a 640 x 480 monitor. Do not connect pins 7 or 10 as they are unused on original Macintosh II Video Cards and there are built-in pullup resistors on the newer Macintosh II Video Card and Macintosh IIci to terminate these pins when not in use." ... and leaving 7 & 10 nc, and grounding pin 4 has indeed kicked it into life (currently running on an ELO touchscreen LCD, it remains to be seen whether any of my other LCDs or CRTs have problems with it) cheers! Jules From scaron at umich.edu Tue Oct 27 20:03:27 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 21:03:27 -0400 Subject: Mac IIsi - SoG? In-Reply-To: <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> References: <562EEFE6.6090408@gmail.com> <56300BD2.3050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: Try pulling the accelerator board out of the PDS slot ... I've seen a lot of accelerator boards go bad over time but when removed, the underlying Mac is actually okay ... You should just be able to yank the board; it's all plug-n-play for the most part. There should be Macintosh ROMs on the motherboard; look for a few 20-some-odd-pin DIL packages with (C) APPLE on them ... I believe the ROM SIMM slot is just there for upgrade potential (never utilized). No service processors or anything here; the CPU on the logic board (or on the accelerator board) does it all. If you're getting a startup chime, that implies the battery is providing sufficient "juice" (or the logic board doesn't care that much) to power on; the PSU is providing nominally sane voltages to the logic and it's managing to execute at least a little bit of the ROM ... Best, Sean On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/27/2015 12:54 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> AFAIK there's nothing special about the video on the IIsi ... pretty sure >> that if the adapter and monitor will work with i.e. a standard Mac II >> 640x480x8 NuBus board (or equivalent) it should work with the IIsi. >> > > Hmm, looks like this one has issues, then. I don't have an operational > 'scope here, but I did set my meter to the frequency range and put it on > both the hsync and the green video line, but it didn't read anything - I'd > expect to see something in the tens of KHz range on one or the other. > > I pulled the NVRAM battery (it was completely dead) and for now have > replaced with a 3V pack consisting of two AA cells - I would expect that to > be enough (compared to the correct 3.6V battery), but I suppose it's > possible that it's not. Anyway, I did the command-option-P-R sequence to > reset the NVRAM at startup (and got the second chime to suggest that it had > done the reset), but unfortunately no dice. > > The board caps are visually good - i.e. no obvious leaking/corrosion. > > All the board fuses check out OK (quite probably not related to the video > circuits anyway) > > +5V and +12V are OK; I've not located a good/simple spot to check for -12V > yet. > > I noticed that there's no W1 jumper fitted. According to section 2.5.7 at > http://macfaq.org/hardware/logicboard.shtml there should be if the board > is running from the on-board ROMs rather than a ROM SIMM - but if I fit > that jumper then I no longer get the startup chime; can anyone confirm that > macfaq is correct and I'm supposed to have the jumper fitted if the machine > *doesn't* have the SIMM? > > One final note: the system has a Carrera '040 board fitted in the > accelerator slot. The working state of that board is unknown (just like the > rest of the machine) - if I remove it for now, do I need to change any > jumpers or anything on the main system board so that the on-board '030 will > act as primary CPU, or should that happen automatically? > > I wish I knew at what point the chimes are generated - I don't know if > it's just some lowly service processor which produces those, or if it > implies that basic ROM, RAM, CPU etc. are all OK for it to ever get that > far (talking of which, I haven't tried swapping RAM; I suppose it might be > faulty in such a way that it's knocking the video out entirely). > > cheers > > Jules > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Oct 28 02:25:38 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:25:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <351844014.4244062.1446017138628.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > Wayne (ttyparts.com) and I had a disaster of a shipment on a ASR33, Fed Ex Ground did us no favors. You are probably better off sending heavy shock-sensitive items on a pallet via freight.? A parcel invites being handled on a conveyor or dropped.? A pallet has to be handled with a forklift.?? It's likely more expensive, but I recall getting a decent price for a VT52 I had shipped this way via Freightquote.com. --Bill From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 28 02:58:34 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:58:34 +0000 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> Well they managed to keep that quiet or I would have gone like a shot. My wife and I go to Germany three or four times a year on holiday. I worked in Germany for a year (1969/70) and speak enough German to get around. So I am totally hacked off that it was a secret closed show and so I never knew about it. I could have been there in less than three hours. door to door. Whoever hid this event form the greater collecting world should be made to key in the PDP8 bootstrap 1024 times!!! Seriously though, it would have been nice to have gone Rod Smallwood On 28/10/15 02:13, Jack Rubin wrote: > Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is at the Vintage Computer Forum - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I certainly did! > > Jack > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 28 03:01:21 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 01:01:21 -0700 Subject: Sale with a lot of ATT 3B2 stuff Message-ID: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> This is a representative auction by the vendor. Look at all of his stuff for the whole story. VINTAGE-COMPUTER-AT-T-3B2-500-600-1000-UNIX-SYSTEM-16MB-MEMORY-WESTERN-ELECTRIC http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 The buyer of his Lisp Machine is going to be sad. The vendor has broken off good to have spares and software for a working machine into separate auctions. Unlike the 3B2 stuff which is all parts. Not a nice thing to do if you are asking $9500 for the machine and only a few hundred more for the spares. Spares such as mice, keyboard, and software restore tapes. Nice. Thanks Jim From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 28 03:05:00 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 01:05:00 -0700 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" Message-ID: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> I'm curious. This auction appears to be for an ASR33 in a Honeywell box. If so $1200 is way too much for a funny case unless you like plastic with "Honeywell" on it. Any ideas? RARE-Vintage-Honeywell-Teletype-Machine http://www.ebay.com/itm/201442852051 Thanks Jim From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 28 03:08:15 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 01:08:15 -0700 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> On 10/28/2015 1:05 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > I'm curious. This auction appears to be for an ASR33 in a Honeywell > box. If so $1200 is way too much for a funny case unless you like > plastic with "Honeywell" on it. > > Any ideas? > > RARE-Vintage-Honeywell-Teletype-Machine > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/201442852051 > > Thanks > Jim > I was looking at another auction. Looking closer at the photos it has to be an ASR33, the cover is metal, and the asking price is $2500. Again, not sure why it would demand so much. Aren't ASR33's working a couple of hundred, unless there are exceptionally rare addons? thanks Jim From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Oct 28 03:27:47 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:27:47 +0100 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56308703.2070603@t-online.de> Jack, in your forum you say "Joerg Hoppe took the picture above but unfortunately, I didn't manage to take one of him. He had a very impressive collection of (mostly) DEC front panels running in full blinken-light glory off SIMH on captive Beagle Bone controllers." Here's my gallery ... including YOU: ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/index.html Is something wrong with it? kind regards Joerg Am 28.10.2015 um 03:13 schrieb Jack Rubin: > Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is at the Vintage Computer Forum - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I certainly did! > > Jack > > > From connork at connorsdomain.com Wed Oct 28 04:14:19 2015 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 05:14:19 -0400 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <563091EB.2020202@connorsdomain.com> On 10/28/2015 4:08 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > On 10/28/2015 1:05 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> I'm curious. This auction appears to be for an ASR33 in a Honeywell >> box. If so $1200 is way too much for a funny case unless you like >> plastic with "Honeywell" on it. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> RARE-Vintage-Honeywell-Teletype-Machine >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201442852051 >> >> Thanks >> Jim >> > I was looking at another auction. Looking closer at the photos it has > to be an ASR33, the cover is metal, and the asking price is $2500. > Again, not sure why it would demand so much. Aren't ASR33's working a > couple of hundred, unless there are exceptionally rare addons? > > thanks > Jim Actually nice and complete teletypes have been going for upward of $2,000 now. More around $1200-1500 in unknown condition but nice and complete. By this I mean with top-hat in one piece, chad bucket, stand etc. Just look at recently sold on eBay, the last two ASR33s to sell went for 1200 and 1500. Its quite scary. Oh and don't even ask what top-hats go for... I was VERY lucky to get my ASR33 a few weeks ago for free. http://imgur.com/pvwqlqZ Don't plan on ever letting it go :) As for the odd teletype in the auction, if you have a Honeywell to hook it too I suppose you'd really want it. I do think its overpriced though, then again look at everything else the seller has and yea... I find it odd it doesn't have a paper tape reader, only a punch. But yes it looks like a bone stock ASR33 underneath. I do wonder what that device in the last photo is though, with the pins sticking out of surface? I would think paper tape reader but its obviously not. -Connor K From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 04:43:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:43:26 -0000 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile > Sent: 28 October 2015 08:08 > To: Classic Computer List (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > Subject: Re: Honeywell "Teletype" > > On 10/28/2015 1:05 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > I'm curious. This auction appears to be for an ASR33 in a Honeywell > > box. If so $1200 is way too much for a funny case unless you like > > plastic with "Honeywell" on it. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > RARE-Vintage-Honeywell-Teletype-Machine > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/201442852051 > > > > Thanks > > Jim > > > I was looking at another auction. Looking closer at the photos it has to be an > ASR33, the cover is metal, and the asking price is $2500. > Again, not sure why it would demand so much. Aren't ASR33's working a > couple of hundred, unless there are exceptionally rare addons? > That looks pretty clean. I haven't seen one in the UK at anywhere near that price. Looking at US prices its almost worth shipping if I could find a set of 50hz gears.... > thanks > Jim From simski at dds.nl Wed Oct 28 05:04:25 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:04:25 +0100 Subject: Distilled water (was re: Model 152 PSU dummy loads) In-Reply-To: <20151027180355.GA32474@clarinet.ruffspot.net> References: <20151027180355.GA32474@clarinet.ruffspot.net> Message-ID: <56309DA9.5050706@dds.nl> car bulbs? (just to be as pedantic...) On 27-10-15 19:03, Craig Ruff wrote: > Just to be pedantic, as this is the Internet after all :-), distilled > water is a pretty good insulator, but not a "perfect" one. Neutral > (pH 7.0) water always has a very small amount of the molecules > disassociated into H+ and OH- ions. However, as others have stated, > the effective value of the water resistor, compared to the load > resistor(s), will be negligible. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 09:55:24 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:55:24 -0500 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nice looking Burroughs! *kidding* Looks like the seller hasn't had any bites since the last go-round. I did some investigating at that time but couldn't come up with a Honeywell system that had this 'stylized' unit. However, I did find photos of plain-jane 33's with Honeywell badges on the covers over the TT logo, but that's about it. -C On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 4:43 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > jwsmobile > > Sent: 28 October 2015 08:08 > > To: Classic Computer List (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > > > Subject: Re: Honeywell "Teletype" > > > > On 10/28/2015 1:05 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > > > > I'm curious. This auction appears to be for an ASR33 in a Honeywell > > > box. If so $1200 is way too much for a funny case unless you like > > > plastic with "Honeywell" on it. > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > RARE-Vintage-Honeywell-Teletype-Machine > > > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/201442852051 > > > > > > Thanks > > > Jim > > > > > I was looking at another auction. Looking closer at the photos it has > to be an > > ASR33, the cover is metal, and the asking price is $2500. > > Again, not sure why it would demand so much. Aren't ASR33's working a > > couple of hundred, unless there are exceptionally rare addons? > > > > > That looks pretty clean. I haven't seen one in the UK at anywhere near > that price. Looking at US prices its almost worth shipping if I could find > a set of 50hz gears.... > > > > thanks > > Jim > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Oct 28 11:29:15 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:29:15 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151027211159.6FC6518C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151027211159.6FC6518C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5630F7DB.8020609@compsys.to> >Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > I'm trying to get my RLV11 working > >Oh, I was going to mention this about the RLV11 - it's a Q18 device. So it >_probably_ won't work in a system with more than 256KB of memory (which you >don't, at this point, have, though). It would all depend on the OS, whether >it understood that it couldn't DMA to anywhere above 256KB. (The controller >should work OK in a Q22 system - it just won't drive the high address lines, >so they will go to 0 - but it just won't be able to DMA to high memory.) > The rest of Noel's reply agrees with my information, so I will not comment. However, just to place another option on the table, here is that option which I observed around 20 years ago. I was looking at some PDP-11 hardware in a BA23 box and I noticed it had an RLV11 in slots 2 and 3. For those of you who don't know the details, the first 3 slots are ABCD and the other 5 slots are ABAB. Of course, all of the slots in a BA23 box are Q22. The key point is that an RLV11 MUST be placed into a pair of ABCD slots, probably adjacent. Since the CPU board in this example was in slot 1 in the BA23 box, there were only 2 ABCD slots available in any case. NOTE that placing an RLV11 in two ABAB slots will probably ALWAYS result in a release of the magic smoke which activates all computer boards (at least it did when I performed the experiment). One key point to understand is that although the RLV11 can't perform DMA to memory above 256 KB, that does not mean that the system can't have more than 256 KB of physical memory. If there is anything that I have omitted by way of a full explanation, please ask. Jerome Fine From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 11:15:43 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:15:43 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <5630F7DB.8020609@compsys.to> References: <20151027211159.6FC6518C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5630F7DB.8020609@compsys.to> Message-ID: Hi Jerome, thanks for the info! According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 backplane should be all ABCD. Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 in that backplane? On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> > From: Ben Sinclair >> >> > I'm trying to get my RLV11 working >> >> Oh, I was going to mention this about the RLV11 - it's a Q18 device. So it >> _probably_ won't work in a system with more than 256KB of memory (which >> you >> don't, at this point, have, though). It would all depend on the OS, >> whether >> it understood that it couldn't DMA to anywhere above 256KB. (The >> controller >> should work OK in a Q22 system - it just won't drive the high address >> lines, >> so they will go to 0 - but it just won't be able to DMA to high memory.) >> > The rest of Noel's reply agrees with my information, so > I will not comment. > > However, just to place another option on the table, here > is that option which I observed around 20 years ago. > > I was looking at some PDP-11 hardware in a BA23 box > and I noticed it had an RLV11 in slots 2 and 3. For those > of you who don't know the details, the first 3 slots are > ABCD and the other 5 slots are ABAB. Of course, all > of the slots in a BA23 box are Q22. > > The key point is that an RLV11 MUST be placed into > a pair of ABCD slots, probably adjacent. Since the > CPU board in this example was in slot 1 in the BA23 > box, there were only 2 ABCD slots available in any > case. NOTE that placing an RLV11 in two ABAB > slots will probably ALWAYS result in a release of the > magic smoke which activates all computer boards (at > least it did when I performed the experiment). > > One key point to understand is that although the RLV11 > can't perform DMA to memory above 256 KB, that > does not mean that the system can't have more than > 256 KB of physical memory. > > If there is anything that I have omitted by way of a > full explanation, please ask. > > Jerome Fine -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 28 11:43:03 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 12:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 backplane > should be all ABCD. Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that if it wasn't, it was too late... :-) > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 in > that backplane? Not that I am aware of. Noel From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 11:46:40 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:46:40 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: No magic smoke so far! I think you had written something a while back that would test that interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use to test that? The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see what I find! On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 backplane > > should be all ABCD. > > Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that if > it wasn't, it was too late... :-) > > > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 in > > that backplane? > > Not that I am aware of. > > Noel -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 12:02:26 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:02:26 -0400 Subject: Microvax 3800 Soon to arrive Message-ID: Hello. I seem to be getting quite a big assortment of DEC equipment over here as of late. Back in July I made a trip to Miami to pick up a PDP 11/34 with related equipment a while back and posted about it here on the list. I'm still working on getting the power supply on the pdp 11 fixed but am making good progress and learning a lot in the process. Recently a deal popped up on a microvax 3800 that was too good to pass up so I jumped at the chance to get it and it is on it's way to being shipped here. I have never dealt with any Vax hardware before. The closest I've been to one is running a simulation of a machine in the simh emulator. Is there any special hardware I will need to get this up and running? I have a couple of VT 100 terminals that go with the pdp 11 that should work nicely with the Vax. Is there anything a beginner with such hardware should look out for? I would like to try and disconnect the power supply and test it separately if possible to save myself the headache I experienced with the PDP 11. Any suggestions or other info much appreciated. --Devin From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 12:25:11 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 12:25:11 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try moving it next. On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > No magic smoke so far! > > I think you had written something a while back that would test that > interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use > to test that? > > The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the > addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see > what I find! > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Ben Sinclair >> >> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 backplane >> > should be all ABCD. >> >> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that if >> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >> >> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 in >> > that backplane? >> >> Not that I am aware of. >> >> Noel > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Oct 28 12:29:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 18:29:55 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question > mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try > moving it next. I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. Johnny > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> No magic smoke so far! >> >> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >> to test that? >> >> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >> what I find! >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>> >>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 backplane >>> > should be all ABCD. >>> >>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that if >>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>> >>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 in >>> > that backplane? >>> >>> Not that I am aware of. >>> >>> Noel >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 12:52:53 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:52:53 -0400 Subject: Microvax 3800 Soon to arrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same testing as with any early 90's server. If the server boots and squeals to holy hell you prob have a bad drive, but the system is pretty robust and if you have multiple drives it might seal it off and boot anyway. >From the >>> you can check things out at the ROM level. Run the SHOW DEV command if you don't know what to B/1 (boot with diaglog) to. This way you can reset the password if you don't know it. My system's boot drive is DIA0:, yours will likely be different. Keep trying them until it works. My VAX 4000 also has a DIA1: and a DIA5: among others. >>> B/1 DIA0: This will eventually drop you to the SYSBOOT prompt. SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 SYSBOOT> CONTINUE This will drop you to the $ prompt. $ SPAWN $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM: $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:AUTHORIZE This will drop you to the UAF prompt. UAF> MODIFY SYSTEM /PASSWORD=whateveryouwant UAF> EXIT This will bring you back to the $ prompt. Log out $ LOGOUT The VAX upon return then asked me to reset my password to something 8-32 chars, etc. >From there I got to a $ prompt with full access privs. On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 1:02 PM, devin davison wrote: > Hello. I seem to be getting quite a big assortment of DEC equipment over > here as of late. Back in July I made a trip to Miami to pick up a PDP 11/34 > with related equipment a while back and posted about it here on the list. > I'm still working on getting the power supply on the pdp 11 fixed but am > making good progress and learning a lot in the process. Recently a deal > popped up on a microvax 3800 that was too good to pass up so I jumped at > the chance to get it and it is on it's way to being shipped here. > > I have never dealt with any Vax hardware before. The closest I've been to > one is running a simulation of a machine in the simh emulator. Is there any > special hardware I will need to get this up and running? I have a couple of > VT 100 terminals that go with the pdp 11 that should work nicely with the > Vax. Is there anything a beginner with such hardware should look out for? I > would like to try and disconnect the power supply and test it separately if > possible to save myself the headache I experienced with the PDP 11. > Any suggestions or other info much appreciated. > > --Devin > -- Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 13:07:05 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:07:05 -0700 Subject: Microvax 3800 Soon to arrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:02 AM, devin davison wrote: > Hello. I seem to be getting quite a big assortment of DEC equipment over > here as of late. Back in July I made a trip to Miami to pick up a PDP 11/34 > with related equipment a while back and posted about it here on the list. > I'm still working on getting the power supply on the pdp 11 fixed but am > making good progress and learning a lot in the process. Recently a deal > popped up on a microvax 3800 that was too good to pass up so I jumped at > the chance to get it and it is on it's way to being shipped here. > > I have never dealt with any Vax hardware before. The closest I've been to > one is running a simulation of a machine in the simh emulator. Is there any > special hardware I will need to get this up and running? I have a couple of > VT 100 terminals that go with the pdp 11 that should work nicely with the > Vax. Is there anything a beginner with such hardware should look out for? I > would like to try and disconnect the power supply and test it separately if > possible to save myself the headache I experienced with the PDP 11. > Any suggestions or other info much appreciated. > > --Devin A standard MicroVAX 3800 should be an M7625 KA655 CPU board with at least one and up to four M7621 8MB and/or M7622 16MB MS650 memory boards in twelve slot BA213 chassis. A BA213 has mounting room for up to three full height 5.25-inch drives, either SDI RAxx drives or DSSI RFxx drives. I think DSSI RFxx drives would be standard for a MicroVAX 3800, in which case you should also have an M7769 KFQSA DSSI controller. If you have a M7769 KFQSA but the RFxx drives have been removed you can find RFxx drives on eBay, but you might be better off going with a Q-Bus SCSI controller and SCSI drives instead. You should likely also have an M7516 DELQA or M3127 DESQA Ethernet controller, and also an M7546 TQK50 controller and TK50 drive or M7559 TQK70 and TK70 drive. I have removed the TK50 and TK70 drives and controllers from my systems as they aren't worth the bother to me to try to get them working. To connect a terminal to the CPU you need an MMJ cable to connect to the console port on the M7625 KA655 CPU bulkhead panel. On the inside of the CPU bulkhead panel there should be a 3-cell NiCad battery pack. If the battery pack hasn't already been removed you want to do that before it leaks and corrodes things, if that hasn't already happened. There may be an M9060-YA load module in the slot 7-12 side of the BA213 chassis. The power supplies will shut down without a minimum 5 amp load on each of the two power supplies. If you had two M9060-YA load modules I think you should be able to remove all of the other boards from the chassis and install one M9060-YA load module in the left half and one in the right have and check if both power supplies come up OK. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 13:21:55 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:21:55 -0700 Subject: Microvax 3800 Soon to arrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here are some docs that might be helpful if you haven't already found these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/655/EK-306A-MG-001_655Mnt_Mar89.pdf KA655 CPU System Maintenance Order Number EK-306AA-MG-001 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/655/EK-KA655-TM-001_KA655_CPU_Module_Technical_Manual_Jan89.pdf KA655 CPU Module Technical Manual Order Number EK-KA655-TM-001 http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11-volume_2_enclosures-EK-189AA-MG-001.pdf BA213 Enclosure Maintenance Order Number EK-189AA-MG-001 From other at oryx.us Wed Oct 28 13:31:24 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 13:31:24 -0500 Subject: Sale with a lot of ATT 3B2 stuff In-Reply-To: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> References: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5631147C.1000102@oryx.us> I know I'm a terrible person for saying this, but as a person who spent several years as a 3b2 admin for $WORK, and would like to be able to work with the operating system again, the sellers prices alone are enough for me to be happy for Seth's 3b2 emulator project, when ever it is complete enough for usage. I finally found a new home for my Sun E4500 a few years back, a similar sized box to the 3b2 600G and 600GR systems I had administered in my earlier days. The E4500 generated so much heat my wife would only let me run it during the winter months. Either way, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed looking. Jerry On 10/28/15 03:01 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > This is a representative auction by the vendor. Look at all of his stuff for > the whole story. > > VINTAGE-COMPUTER-AT-T-3B2-500-600-1000-UNIX-SYSTEM-16MB-MEMORY-WESTERN-ELECTRIC > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 > > The buyer of his Lisp Machine is going to be sad. The vendor has broken off > good to have spares and software for a working machine into separate auctions. > Unlike the 3B2 stuff which is all parts. Not a nice thing to do if you are > asking $9500 for the machine and only a few hundred more for the spares. Spares > such as mice, keyboard, and software restore tapes. Nice. > > Thanks > Jim From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Oct 28 11:58:04 2015 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <381185444.19214072.1446051423124.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Message-ID: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 28 14:31:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:31:49 -0400 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Message-ID: <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> > On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless person write their blurbs. paul From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 14:35:46 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:35:46 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? I get 177777 there. I did just try moving the RLV11 boards below everything else (except the BDV11), with the same results as before. On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >> I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question >> mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try >> moving it next. > > > I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. > > Johnny > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair >> wrote: >>> >>> No magic smoke so far! >>> >>> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >>> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >>> to test that? >>> >>> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >>> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >>> what I find! >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>> >>>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 >>>> backplane >>>> > should be all ABCD. >>>> >>>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that >>>> if >>>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>>> >>>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 >>>> in >>>> > that backplane? >>>> >>>> Not that I am aware of. >>>> >>>> Noel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Sinclair >>> ben at bensinclair.com >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From dave at willomail.co.uk Wed Oct 28 15:01:34 2015 From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:01:34 +0000 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5631299E.6070803@willomail.co.uk> > > That looks pretty clean. I haven't seen one in the UK at anywhere near that price. Looking at US prices its almost worth shipping if I could find a set of 50hz gears.... > They do pop up now and then. I actually purchased mine though Ebay, last year for ?300. The seller originally had it listed for ?500 but had no bidders. Cheers, Dave From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 15:06:31 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:06:31 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Okay, I think I need to be looking at 774400, which doesn't return anything. Also, the PDP11GUI has a handy RL11 dialog to show all of the registers, which I think shows the same thing... It's not there! I've double checked my switch settings, and tested the switches themselves for continuity just to make sure they weren't bad (which has happened to me before). Beyond something physically wrong with the boards, is there anything else I might check? On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? I get > 177777 there. > > I did just try moving the RLV11 boards below everything else (except > the BDV11), with the same results as before. > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question >>> mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try >>> moving it next. >> >> >> I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. >> >> Johnny >> >> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> No magic smoke so far! >>>> >>>> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >>>> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >>>> to test that? >>>> >>>> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >>>> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >>>> what I find! >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>>> >>>>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 >>>>> backplane >>>>> > should be all ABCD. >>>>> >>>>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that >>>>> if >>>>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>>>> >>>>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 >>>>> in >>>>> > that backplane? >>>>> >>>>> Not that I am aware of. >>>>> >>>>> Noel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Sinclair >>>> ben at bensinclair.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 15:40:46 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:40:46 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives me 144201. The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! DR>START CHANGE HW (L) ? Y # UNITS (D) ? 1 UNIT 0 11/23 PROCESSOR (L) Y ? BUS ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 DRIVE (O) 0 ? BR LEVEL (O) 5 ? CHANGE SW (L) ? Y DROP ON ERROR LIMIT (L) N ? AUTOSIZE (L) N ? CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00113 ON UNIT 00 TST 009 SUB 000 PC: 020052 BUS RESET DID NOT CLEAR RLCS CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00004 ON UNIT 00 TST 012 SUB 000 PC: 020264 RLCS READ/WRITE ERROR (BIT 0 DON'T CARE) CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 015 SUB 000 PC: 020600 BIT SET INSTRUCTION ON RLCS YIELDED WRONG RESULT CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00008 ON UNIT 00 TST 016 SUB 000 PC: 020724 BIT CLEAR INSTRUCTION ON RLCS YIELDED WRONG RESULT CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 EXP'D: 141776 REC'D: 145776 ... And many more! On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Okay, I think I need to be looking at 774400, which doesn't return > anything. Also, the PDP11GUI has a handy RL11 dialog to show all of > the registers, which I think shows the same thing... It's not there! > > I've double checked my switch settings, and tested the switches > themselves for continuity just to make sure they weren't bad (which > has happened to me before). Beyond something physically wrong with the > boards, is there anything else I might check? > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? I get >> 177777 there. >> >> I did just try moving the RLV11 boards below everything else (except >> the BDV11), with the same results as before. >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>> >>>> I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question >>>> mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try >>>> moving it next. >>> >>> >>> I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> No magic smoke so far! >>>>> >>>>> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >>>>> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >>>>> to test that? >>>>> >>>>> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >>>>> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >>>>> what I find! >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>>>> >>>>>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 >>>>>> backplane >>>>>> > should be all ABCD. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that >>>>>> if >>>>>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 >>>>>> in >>>>>> > that backplane? >>>>>> >>>>>> Not that I am aware of. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Sinclair >>>>> ben at bensinclair.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From wilson at dbit.com Wed Oct 28 15:46:20 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:46:20 -0400 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >me 144201. > >The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? John Wilson D Bit From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Oct 28 15:58:01 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Thanks John, I think the insanity is my own! After changing those switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the M8013. I've swapped them and now get slightly different results: One note, it now takes a while for it to start printing anything, which I think might mean it's running some of the first test successfully before getting to these. Earlier runs would start printing errors immediately. CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00037 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023576 RLMP: CRC OF DA+3 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 EXP'D: 145554 REC'D: 175554 CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00038 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023634 RLMP: CRC OF CRC OF DA+4 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 EXP'D: 151554 REC'D: 171554 CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00039 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023730 MAINT. FILL/EMPTY FIFO DMA DATA TRANSFER COMPARE ERROR CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004762 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004764 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004766 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >>board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >>and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >>the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >>just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >>point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >>me 144201. >> >>The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >>wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! > > Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write > check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. > Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere > (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? > > John Wilson > D Bit -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 28 16:32:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151028213240.2415318C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. Yes (if the question is 'for input'). What it puts out on the bus I haven't checked, definitely BBS7 plus the low 13 bits (0-12), dunno about BDAL13-21. > From: Ben Sinclair > For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? No, that's only 15 bits. (In octal, each full digit is 3 bits. So an 18-bit address will range from 000000 to 777777; 16-bit from 000000 to 177777, etc.) Noel From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 16:45:42 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:45:42 -0500 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> Message-ID: Seems like it's worth is totally dependent on its provenance...how do you prove that? On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > > > A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: > http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top > > Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of > rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless > person write their blurbs. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 28 16:53:18 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151028215318.516F918C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > I think you had written something a while back that would test that > interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use > to test that? Well, I'm sure there's a DEC diagnostic for the DLV11-J, but I have no idea what it is. I did have a little ~20-instruction program that tests the receive and transmit interrupts, I'll send you the URLs for the source, and ODT script, forms. (Not sure what forms of object formats you can load into the machine.) > After changing those switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the > M8013. Luckily that didn't fry anything. (I'm not looking down in disdain, I've made a few similar mistakes myself! I usually try and stop and check twice every time I go to turn the power on after I've fiddled with the hardware, for precisely that reason.) > I've swapped them and now get slightly different results: I wonder if that's because there's no drive? Is this test suppose to need one, I forget (I think you said but I'm too lazy to look :-). Noel From alan at alanlee.org Wed Oct 28 16:54:12 2015 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:54:12 -0400 Subject: Sale with a lot of ATT 3B2 stuff In-Reply-To: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> References: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: (Jerry you are not a terrible person for saying that) I have similar thoughts. Ebay seller twenex has had this stuff listed for months. It's not new. He's trolling for desperate buyers. I would hardly call this a 'sale'. I've offered him very reasonable prices on several things he listed for crazy amounts and he's refused. I mean $200 for a single tape that will melt as soon as it's run at speed? I don't even mind personally paying him for previously un-archived manuals and media that I would just turn around and send to Al K. or Jason S. for free. But he won't even take a reasonable offer from me when I tell him they are to be archived for the greater public good. And by reasonable.. I have offered him $50 for a SVR 3.2.3.2 (V3) tape and his counter was $150! You can download a 3.2.1 tape image on-line today. 3.2.3.2 would be a nice patch level bonus for those few of us running V3 hardware. He's an eBay troll and nearing the a-hat level of wiredforservice from my experiences with him. Please let us know when he wants to be reasonably compensated for his wares as my check-book remains open. -Alan On 2015-10-28 04:01, jwsmobile wrote: > This is a representative auction by the vendor. Look at all of his stuff for the whole story. > > VINTAGE-COMPUTER-AT-T-3B2-500-600-1000-UNIX-SYSTEM-16MB-MEMORY-WESTERN-ELECTRIC > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 [1] > > The buyer of his Lisp Machine is going to be sad. The vendor has broken off good to have spares and software for a working machine into separate auctions. Unlike the 3B2 stuff which is all parts. Not a nice thing to do if you are asking $9500 for the machine and only a few hundred more for the spares. Spares such as mice, keyboard, and software restore tapes. Nice. > > Thanks > Jim Links: ------ [1] http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 28 17:17:51 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:17:51 -0700 Subject: Sale with a lot of ATT 3B2 stuff In-Reply-To: References: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5631498F.6090809@jwsss.com> I didn't like his prices either, but I wanted to put the 3Bx eyeballs on this in case there was something they needed for the emulator project. Breaking out what I consider to be spares from the Symbolics sale is what I referred to in my post below, but didn't put it in such language. At least he's not the psycho in Colorado Springs vintagecomputermuseum or whatever he calls himself. I wish he had gone off on me now, because I think I'd have a case to get him booted, and he truly is an asshole. I just pointed out a bit of info on one of his auctions several years ago and he went nuts. I think he considers his "knowledge" similarly to his penis size and if you challenge it he feels his manhood is threatened. The goal is find these things and convey them to deserving places around these sorts of idiots. thanks Jim On 10/28/2015 2:54 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > > > (Jerry you are not a terrible person for saying that) > > I have similar thoughts. Ebay seller twenex has had this stuff listed > for months. It's not new. He's trolling for desperate buyers. I would > hardly call this a 'sale'. I've offered him very reasonable prices on > several things he listed for crazy amounts and he's refused. I mean $200 > for a single tape that will melt as soon as it's run at speed? I don't > even mind personally paying him for previously un-archived manuals and > media that I would just turn around and send to Al K. or Jason S. for > free. But he won't even take a reasonable offer from me when I tell him > they are to be archived for the greater public good. And by reasonable.. > I have offered him $50 for a SVR 3.2.3.2 (V3) tape and his counter was > $150! You can download a 3.2.1 tape image on-line today. 3.2.3.2 would > be a nice patch level bonus for those few of us running V3 hardware. > > He's an eBay troll and nearing the a-hat level of wiredforservice from > my experiences with him. > > Please let us know when he wants to be reasonably compensated for his > wares as my check-book remains open. > > -Alan > > On 2015-10-28 04:01, jwsmobile wrote: > >> This is a representative auction by the vendor. Look at all of his stuff for the whole story. >> >> VINTAGE-COMPUTER-AT-T-3B2-500-600-1000-UNIX-SYSTEM-16MB-MEMORY-WESTERN-ELECTRIC >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 [1] >> >> The buyer of his Lisp Machine is going to be sad. The vendor has broken off good to have spares and software for a working machine into separate auctions. Unlike the 3B2 stuff which is all parts. Not a nice thing to do if you are asking $9500 for the machine and only a few hundred more for the spares. Spares such as mice, keyboard, and software restore tapes. Nice. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 > > From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Oct 28 17:28:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:28:37 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56314C15.2070407@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-28 20:35, Ben Sinclair wrote: > For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? I get > 177777 there. Um? 74400 is 15 bits... :-) 18 bits would be 774400. But 22 bits would be 17774400. And 16 bits would be 174400. I would primarily expect 16 bits addresses to be used on a KDF-11, but I could be wrong. Early revisions only supported 18 bit addressing, but later models supported 22 bit addressing. But how that is reflected in the micro-ODT on a KDF-11 I don't know. I don't even know if it's actually micro-ODT, or some more primitivt console mode on that CPU. I haven't actually worked on a KDF-11 in about 20 years. I know the KDJ-11 better at this point. (Or the models with a physical front panel...) > I did just try moving the RLV11 boards below everything else (except > the BDV11), with the same results as before. I feel that this is just random testing and moving stuff around, which I doubt is very helpful. Johnny > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question >>> mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try >>> moving it next. >> >> >> I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. >> >> Johnny >> >> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> No magic smoke so far! >>>> >>>> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >>>> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >>>> to test that? >>>> >>>> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >>>> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >>>> what I find! >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>>> >>>>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 >>>>> backplane >>>>> > should be all ABCD. >>>>> >>>>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that >>>>> if >>>>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>>>> >>>>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 >>>>> in >>>>> > that backplane? >>>>> >>>>> Not that I am aware of. >>>>> >>>>> Noel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Sinclair >>>> ben at bensinclair.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Oct 28 17:31:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:31:31 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56314CC3.10201@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-28 21:40, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my > board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB > and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to > the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's > just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some > point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives > me 144201. > > The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is > wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! [...] Ah! Progress. That explains your initial problems then. Well, now that we can communicate with the controller, let's move on. Do you have any drives connected? Do you have the terminator for the drives in place? Is all the cards in the Q-bus continuous without any gaps in the bus? Johnny > > > DR>START > > CHANGE HW (L) ? Y > > # UNITS (D) ? 1 > > UNIT 0 > 11/23 PROCESSOR (L) Y ? > BUS ADDRESS (O) 174400 ? > VECTOR (O) 160 ? 330 > DRIVE (O) 0 ? > BR LEVEL (O) 5 ? > > CHANGE SW (L) ? Y > > DROP ON ERROR LIMIT (L) N ? > AUTOSIZE (L) N ? > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00113 ON UNIT 00 TST 009 SUB 000 PC: 020052 > BUS RESET DID NOT CLEAR RLCS > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00004 ON UNIT 00 TST 012 SUB 000 PC: 020264 > RLCS READ/WRITE ERROR (BIT 0 DON'T CARE) > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 015 SUB 000 PC: 020600 > BIT SET INSTRUCTION ON RLCS YIELDED WRONG RESULT > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > EXP'D: 140200 REC'D: 144200 > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00008 ON UNIT 00 TST 016 SUB 000 PC: 020724 > BIT CLEAR INSTRUCTION ON RLCS YIELDED WRONG RESULT > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > EXP'D: 141776 REC'D: 145776 > > ... And many more! > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> Okay, I think I need to be looking at 774400, which doesn't return >> anything. Also, the PDP11GUI has a handy RL11 dialog to show all of >> the registers, which I think shows the same thing... It's not there! >> >> I've double checked my switch settings, and tested the switches >> themselves for continuity just to make sure they weren't bad (which >> has happened to me before). Beyond something physically wrong with the >> boards, is there anything else I might check? >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> For 18 bit addresses, I assume I would look at 74400 instead? I get >>> 177777 there. >>> >>> I did just try moving the RLV11 boards below everything else (except >>> the BDV11), with the same results as before. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> On 2015-10-28 18:25, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I just tried to read 774400 from ODT, and it just gives the question >>>>> mark. So, I don't think it's seeing it at all right now! I'll try >>>>> moving it next. >>>> >>>> >>>> I wonder if it really uses 18 bit addresses in the console. >>>> >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ben Sinclair >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> No magic smoke so far! >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you had written something a while back that would test that >>>>>> interrupt. Was that correct, or is there another diagnostic I can use >>>>>> to test that? >>>>>> >>>>>> The 17440 wasn't a typo, it's just my misunderstanding of how the >>>>>> addressing works. I'll read the actual location later today and see >>>>>> what I find! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > From: Ben Sinclair >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > According to the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, my H9273 >>>>>>> backplane >>>>>>> > should be all ABCD. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yup, that was one of the first things I checked - whilst realizing that >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> it wasn't, it was too late... :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Am I correct in that I shouldn't have any problem using the RLV11 >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> > that backplane? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not that I am aware of. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Noel >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ben Sinclair >>>>>> ben at bensinclair.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>>> || on a psychedelic trip >>>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Sinclair >>> ben at bensinclair.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Sinclair >> ben at bensinclair.com > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Oct 28 17:37:44 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:37:44 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> Even better. Sorry for writing responses without checking what else is in my inbox. I've caught up now, though. And you definitely look like you got a stuck bit in there. All of the errors show expected and received data, and in all cases bit 13 is on while it shouldn't be. Could be a bad bus driver, a bad connection, or something more funny. But start with the obvious ones. Do you have any extender cards so that you can access the card with the power on, and measure signals. Checking the source of bit 13 on output and trace if the signal is always on somewhere would be a good exercise. Do someone remember if there are some register in the RLV11 that can be written and read back getting the same data out again? That could also be interested to test things with... Johnny On 2015-10-28 21:58, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks John, I think the insanity is my own! After changing those > switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the M8013. I've swapped > them and now get slightly different results: > > One note, it now takes a while for it to start printing anything, > which I think might mean it's running some of the first test > successfully before getting to these. Earlier runs would start > printing errors immediately. > > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00037 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023576 > RLMP: CRC OF DA+3 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 > TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 > EXP'D: 145554 REC'D: 175554 > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00038 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023634 > RLMP: CRC OF CRC OF DA+4 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 > TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 > EXP'D: 151554 REC'D: 171554 > > CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00039 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023730 > MAINT. FILL/EMPTY FIFO DMA DATA TRANSFER COMPARE ERROR > CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 > BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 > TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 > BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004762 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 > BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004764 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 > BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004766 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >>> board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >>> and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >>> the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >>> just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >>> point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >>> me 144201. >>> >>> The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >>> wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! >> >> Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write >> check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. >> Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere >> (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 28 18:32:24 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:32:24 -0700 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> Message-ID: Not a proof in entirety of the claim, but from a ref and looking at the closeup pics from the auction website, it is an unusual form of core memory where the cores have two holes through them, like a blocky figure 8, apparently an aspect of a technique to achieve non-destructive readout. This is quite unusual and would go some ways to showing a provenance to the Gemini project. On 2015-Oct-28, at 2:45 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Seems like it's worth is totally dependent on its provenance...how do you > prove that? > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >>> >>> A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: >> http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top >> >> Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of >> rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless >> person write their blurbs. >> >> paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 28 18:34:17 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:34:17 -0400 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yes, I was wondering that too. The paper sticker pasted on the array as show in the photo is hardly persuasive. paul > On Oct 28, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > Seems like it's worth is totally dependent on its provenance...how do you > prove that? > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >>> >>> A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: >> http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top >> >> Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of >> rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless >> person write their blurbs. >> >> paul >> >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 28 18:41:52 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:41:52 -0400 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> Message-ID: <743A946C-2AE3-4F2F-8696-7CC680FAF7F7@comcast.net> I didn't realize there is any such thing as non-destructive read core memory. Google does turn up a few obscure articles about such things. It doesn't seem to have caught on, and I wonder why it was used here. So that phrase actually may be accurate. But does that clearly tie it to Gemini? And even if it does, that doesn't amount to provenance as a flight item; it might just as easily have been a spare, or a failed test module, or something similar that never left the ground. paul > On Oct 28, 2015, at 7:32 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Not a proof in entirety of the claim, but from a ref and looking at the closeup pics from the auction website, it is an unusual form of core memory where the cores have two holes through them, like a blocky figure 8, apparently an aspect of a technique to achieve non-destructive readout. This is quite unusual and would go some ways to showing a provenance to the Gemini project. > > > On 2015-Oct-28, at 2:45 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> Seems like it's worth is totally dependent on its provenance...how do you >> prove that? >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >>>> >>>> A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: >>> http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top >>> >>> Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of >>> rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless >>> person write their blurbs. >>> >>> paul > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 28 18:58:12 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:58:12 -0700 Subject: Omnibus TSC8-75 schematic? Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CF6@mail.bensene.com> While there are documents out there that describe the function of the Educomp/Quodata TSC8-75 Timeshare System Controller for Omnibus PDP 8 machines, I have searched high and low, and there doesn't seem to be /any/ schematics for it anywhere. I know this was a proprietary board that did some pretty interesting things to trap IOT, JMP, JSR, and HLT/OSR instructions on the PDP 8/e/f/m/a machines and provide additional capabilities versus DEC's Memory Extension and Timeshare Control board. I have a fantasy of being able to run ETOS on real PDP 8/e hardware, but I don't have one of these boards, and they seem to be pretty much unobtainium. There are a few of them out there, but obviously, the owners of these aren't in the mood to submit them for reverse engineering. Perhaps someone out there has already done this, or someone has documentation on the board that may include schematics that simply hasn't scanned it yet. Bitsavers comes up with nothing under the DEC archives, and there's no sign of Quodata or Educomp folders. I have read the descriptions of the function of the board, and the IOTs that make it do its things, but I just don't have the expertise on the guts of the Omnibus PDP 8 machines to be able to take this information and create a design for a board that performs these functions. I've also looked at the code in SimH that emulates the functionality of the board, but again, it isn't enough information for me to be able to figure out how to implement it in hardware. In any case, I think it'd be interesting to see if one of these boards could be reproduced. I've found some old ClassicCMP list archives that mention some stuff about ETOS documentation and folks that worked for Educomp/Quodata that were involved in the creation of ETOS and this board, but the thread died over 10 years ago. I am probably wishing for something that doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask anyway, as maybe someone has stumbled across some of this stuff and just hasn't made it public yet. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 28 19:10:20 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:10:20 -0700 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <743A946C-2AE3-4F2F-8696-7CC680FAF7F7@comcast.net> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <743A946C-2AE3-4F2F-8696-7CC680FAF7F7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <98F570EA-F0F8-4A3D-96B5-1291E16C7244@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-28, at 4:41 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Oct 28, 2015, at 7:32 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2015-Oct-28, at 2:45 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:58 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A core memory unit from Gemini 3 is up for auction: >>>> http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news/2015/10/auction-memory-first-computer-space?et_cid=4906629&et_rid=742193094&location=top >>>> >>>> Comical. "Chip" indeed. And "first use of core memory ... in an era of >>>> rotating drum memory" -- in 1965? I wonder why they have such a clueless >>>> person write their blurbs. >>>> >>>> paul >>> Seems like it's worth is totally dependent on its provenance...how do you >>> prove that? >> >> Not a proof in entirety of the claim, but from a ref and looking at the closeup pics from the auction website, it is an unusual form of core memory where the cores have two holes through them, like a blocky figure 8, apparently an aspect of a technique to achieve non-destructive readout. This is quite unusual and would go some ways to showing a provenance to the Gemini project. >> > I didn't realize there is any such thing as non-destructive read core memory. Google does turn up a few obscure articles about such things. It doesn't seem to have caught on, and I wonder why it was used here. > > So that phrase actually may be accurate. But does that clearly tie it to Gemini? And even if it does, that doesn't amount to provenance as a flight item; it might just as easily have been a spare, or a failed test module, or something similar that never left the ground. > > paul No, it doesn't, without more research (that's why I qualified the observation with "not a proof in entirety"). I'm just noting: - A source describes this type of memory as being used in the Gemini computer. - It's a very unusual form of core memory - I had never heard of it before either - so there's not a lot of other equipment for it to have come from. The techique may even only ever have been used in Gemini. - The matrix size of 4096 is consistent with that described for Gemini, although that is a common matrix size. From dave at 661.org Wed Oct 28 19:10:35 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:10:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Dowalert tape recorder thingy Message-ID: Has anyone here ever used a Dowalert back in its heyday of the early 1980s? For those who don't know, a Dowalert is a device that resembles a tape-driven telephone answering machine. Dow Jones had an idea of broadcasting stock information over FM radio to this device for later perusal by subscribers. The device has a keypad upon which you'd enter numbers for particular classes of information you want. The broadcast would include a code detectable by the device. If the code on the broadcast matched one of those selected by the subscriber, the tape recorder would start recording. Then an alert light would turn on letting the user know that some new information is available. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Oct 28 20:29:28 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:29:28 -0400 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space Message-ID: didn't they keep craft intact for display etc? heh who stole the memory then!/ anything is FLOWN in space has a high value. we collect a bit of that but most is stupidly out of the price range. ed sharpe archivist for smecc In a message dated 10/28/2015 12:32:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, paulkoning at comcast.net writes: From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 20:33:31 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:33:31 -0500 Subject: TTY paper - $5 per roll in St. Paul / Mpls. Message-ID: Anyone in the St. Paul / Mpls area need paper for a Teletype? I had to buy half a dozen rolls to get a decent price, so I am making (3) spare rolls available at my cost of $5/roll. If you have interest, please send me a message off-list - thanks! -Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 28 20:35:18 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:35:18 -0500 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> Message-ID: <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2015 06:32 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Not a proof in entirety of the claim, but from a ref and looking at the closeup pics from the auction website, it is an unusual form of core memory where the cores have two holes through them, like a blocky figure 8, apparently an aspect of a technique to achieve non-destructive readout. This is quite unusual and would go some ways to showing a provenance to the Gemini project. > That scheme is also known as BiAx. The docs with my Honeywell Alert machine described the same thing. As far as I can tell, the EMM core memory unit that came with it is NOT BiAx, however. Jon From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 20:37:03 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:37:03 -0400 Subject: EISA? Message-ID: Would anyone have a working EISA motherboard or smallish EISA machine they'd part with for a reasonable price? I find myself in need of one to resurrect some elderly kit I'd like to play with. Contact off-list. KJ From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 28 21:42:50 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:42:50 +1000 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <211c5ce3bfb1b782ced0e5f308e27a3c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com Date: Thu, October 29, 2015 11:29 am To: cctalk at classiccmp.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > didn't they keep craft intact for display etc? > heh who stole the memory then!/ > > anything is FLOWN in space has a high value. > we collect a bit of that but most is stupidly out of the price range. > > ed sharpe archivist for smecc > > > In a message dated 10/28/2015 12:32:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > paulkoning at comcast.net writes: Yes the provenence of certified flown items really boosts the price. Just look at what fragments of flown Apollo beta cloth and mylar go for on eBay, top dollar... A couple of years ago I bid on a Raytheon module from a Block 1 AGC (exactly the ones seen in the excellent short film 'Computer for Apollo' on Youtube), it went for about $1200 USD. And it had complete unknown provenance, I don't think the Block 1's were flown(?). At least I had the nice feeling I 'owned' it for a short time :) Steve. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 28 23:48:46 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 21:48:46 -0700 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-28, at 6:35 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/28/2015 06:32 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Not a proof in entirety of the claim, but from a ref and looking at the closeup pics from the auction website, it is an unusual form of core memory where the cores have two holes through them, like a blocky figure 8, apparently an aspect of a technique to achieve non-destructive readout. This is quite unusual and would go some ways to showing a provenance to the Gemini project. >> > That scheme is also known as BiAx. The docs with my Honeywell Alert machine described the same thing. > As far as I can tell, the EMM core memory unit that came with it is NOT BiAx, however. > > Jon Very interesting to hear of another scheme, but it's not clear whether it applies to the Gemini auction memory. The BiAX scheme shows cores with the holes (apertures as they're called in the business) perpendicular to each other. In contrast, the Gemini auction cores have two apertures with the same orientation (a figure 8). This abstract http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1961P%26SS....7..184W describes BiAX in distinction to "other multi-aperture" techniques, so the Gemini auction memory is not necessarily BiAX. From what I've seen described, the perpendicular aperture orientation was fundamental to the BiAX scheme. - Another topic: what is a Honeywell Alert machine? Searches are just bringing up some current-day "Honeywell Instant Alert" messaging system. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 29 00:33:34 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space Message-ID: <20151029053334.72C5E18C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > a Raytheon module from a Block 1 AGC > ... > I don't think the Block 1's were flown(?). Yes, but not on manned flights. (Researching this is made more complex because there were quite a few different AGC designs; AGC3, AGC4, AGC4B, AGC5 and AGC6, in addition to Block I and Block II.) Sources differ a bit: "Journey to the Moon" (Eldon Hall) says (pg. 107) that Apollo 6 was "the last flight with Block I guidance system equipment" - but it's not clear if that refers to the AFC. "Digital Apollo" (David Mindell) says (pg. 175) that Apollo 5 was "the first Block II computer flight". So somewhere around there. (Apollo 7 was the first manned flight, and the first Block II spacecraft, per Mindell, pg. 176 - note that Block II spacecraft apparently != Block II AGC - very confusing!) Both excellent books, BTW - highly recommend them both. Noel From scaron at umich.edu Wed Oct 28 14:53:35 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:53:35 -0400 Subject: Sale with a lot of ATT 3B2 stuff In-Reply-To: <5631147C.1000102@oryx.us> References: <563080D1.4000406@jwsss.com> <5631147C.1000102@oryx.us> Message-ID: I've seen this vendor's stuff before but their prices were so off the wall, I just laughed and moved on. Best, Sean On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > I know I'm a terrible person for saying this, but as a person who spent > several years as a 3b2 admin for $WORK, and would like to be able to work > with the operating system again, the sellers prices alone are enough for me > to be happy for Seth's 3b2 emulator project, when ever it is complete > enough for usage. > > I finally found a new home for my Sun E4500 a few years back, a similar > sized box to the 3b2 600G and 600GR systems I had administered in my > earlier days. The E4500 generated so much heat my wife would only let me > run it during the winter months. > > Either way, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed looking. > > Jerry > > > > > > > On 10/28/15 03:01 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> >> This is a representative auction by the vendor. Look at all of his stuff >> for >> the whole story. >> >> >> VINTAGE-COMPUTER-AT-T-3B2-500-600-1000-UNIX-SYSTEM-16MB-MEMORY-WESTERN-ELECTRIC >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321811268824 >> >> The buyer of his Lisp Machine is going to be sad. The vendor has broken >> off >> good to have spares and software for a working machine into separate >> auctions. >> Unlike the 3B2 stuff which is all parts. Not a nice thing to do if you are >> asking $9500 for the machine and only a few hundred more for the spares. >> Spares >> such as mice, keyboard, and software restore tapes. Nice. >> >> Thanks >> Jim >> > From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 29 08:39:34 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:39:34 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Moving the boards after before the DLV-11 was an attempt to see if Noel's idea around the DLV-11 not passing the grant might have been an issue, so not completely random! However, I've been guilty of plenty of random testing before! I unfortunately don't have an extender card... I just searched eBay for a few things, but didn't see any. Do they have a part number or some other description that I might look for? On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Even better. Sorry for writing responses without checking what else is in my > inbox. I've caught up now, though. > > And you definitely look like you got a stuck bit in there. > All of the errors show expected and received data, and in all cases bit 13 > is on while it shouldn't be. > > Could be a bad bus driver, a bad connection, or something more funny. But > start with the obvious ones. Do you have any extender cards so that you can > access the card with the power on, and measure signals. Checking the source > of bit 13 on output and trace if the signal is always on somewhere would be > a good exercise. > > Do someone remember if there are some register in the RLV11 that can be > written and read back getting the same data out again? That could also be > interested to test things with... > > Johnny > > > On 2015-10-28 21:58, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> >> Thanks John, I think the insanity is my own! After changing those >> switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the M8013. I've swapped >> them and now get slightly different results: >> >> One note, it now takes a while for it to start printing anything, >> which I think might mean it's running some of the first test >> successfully before getting to these. Earlier runs would start >> printing errors immediately. >> >> >> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00037 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023576 >> RLMP: CRC OF DA+3 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >> EXP'D: 145554 REC'D: 175554 >> >> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00038 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023634 >> RLMP: CRC OF CRC OF DA+4 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >> EXP'D: 151554 REC'D: 171554 >> >> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00039 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023730 >> MAINT. FILL/EMPTY FIFO DMA DATA TRANSFER COMPARE ERROR >> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004762 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004764 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004766 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >> >> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>> >>>> Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >>>> board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >>>> and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >>>> the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >>>> just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >>>> point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >>>> me 144201. >>>> >>>> The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >>>> wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! >>> >>> >>> Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write >>> check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. >>> Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere >>> (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? >>> >>> John Wilson >>> D Bit >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 29 08:53:19 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:53:19 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Assuming I eventually get the controller working, I started looking at my cabling and I don't think I have what I need to hook up the drive. A while back I was talking to someone else who suggested using a ribbon cable from the controller to directly inside the drive. That technically will fit if I remove the ribbon inside the drive that goes to the external connectors, but then I won't have a terminator installed. I do have a terminator though! I think what I really need, since I don't have a cab kit or anything, is a bc80m, which I believe is a ribbon with a ground lug on the controller side, and whatever type of connector the drive uses on the other end. Is that correct? Not that I can even find a cable like that anywhere currently... On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Moving the boards after before the DLV-11 was an attempt to see if > Noel's idea around the DLV-11 not passing the grant might have been an > issue, so not completely random! However, I've been guilty of plenty > of random testing before! > > I unfortunately don't have an extender card... I just searched eBay > for a few things, but didn't see any. Do they have a part number or > some other description that I might look for? > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Even better. Sorry for writing responses without checking what else is in my >> inbox. I've caught up now, though. >> >> And you definitely look like you got a stuck bit in there. >> All of the errors show expected and received data, and in all cases bit 13 >> is on while it shouldn't be. >> >> Could be a bad bus driver, a bad connection, or something more funny. But >> start with the obvious ones. Do you have any extender cards so that you can >> access the card with the power on, and measure signals. Checking the source >> of bit 13 on output and trace if the signal is always on somewhere would be >> a good exercise. >> >> Do someone remember if there are some register in the RLV11 that can be >> written and read back getting the same data out again? That could also be >> interested to test things with... >> >> Johnny >> >> >> On 2015-10-28 21:58, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> Thanks John, I think the insanity is my own! After changing those >>> switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the M8013. I've swapped >>> them and now get slightly different results: >>> >>> One note, it now takes a while for it to start printing anything, >>> which I think might mean it's running some of the first test >>> successfully before getting to these. Earlier runs would start >>> printing errors immediately. >>> >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00037 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023576 >>> RLMP: CRC OF DA+3 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> EXP'D: 145554 REC'D: 175554 >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00038 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023634 >>> RLMP: CRC OF CRC OF DA+4 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> EXP'D: 151554 REC'D: 171554 >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00039 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023730 >>> MAINT. FILL/EMPTY FIFO DMA DATA TRANSFER COMPARE ERROR >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004762 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004764 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004766 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >>>>> board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >>>>> and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >>>>> the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >>>>> just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >>>>> point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >>>>> me 144201. >>>>> >>>>> The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >>>>> wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! >>>> >>>> >>>> Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write >>>> check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. >>>> Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere >>>> (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? >>>> >>>> John Wilson >>>> D Bit >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 09:04:21 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:04:21 +0100 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 28 October 2015 at 08:58, rod wrote: > Well they managed to keep that quiet or I would have gone like a shot. > My wife and I go to Germany three or four times a year on holiday. > > I worked in Germany for a year (1969/70) and speak enough German to get > around. > > So I am totally hacked off that it was a secret closed show and so I never > knew about it. > I could have been there in less than three hours. door to door. > > Whoever hid this event form the greater collecting world should be made to > key in the PDP8 bootstrap 1024 times!!! > > Seriously though, it would have been nice to have gone I was thinking much the same thing. It's only a train ride for me -- OK, a long train ride, but still. I even have a few friends in Berlin I could have couch-surfed with. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 29 09:38:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:38:28 +0000 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 In-Reply-To: References: <5630802A.4020307@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56322F64.2050502@btinternet.com> Ah Ha! So not just me. Liam too. Why would they keep such an event hidden? Perhaps there is a secret powerful group within the normal computer collecting community. Was it all done by encrypted email, secret signs, or special handshakes? Are the pictures real or were they done in a film studio? Did anybody on the list see any posts to the list or was it by invitation only? Did anybody on the list know but were told to keep quiet. That must be about the worst publicity failure on record. What the heck happened? Rod Smallwood On 29/10/15 14:04, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 October 2015 at 08:58, rod wrote: >> Well they managed to keep that quiet or I would have gone like a shot. >> My wife and I go to Germany three or four times a year on holiday. >> >> I worked in Germany for a year (1969/70) and speak enough German to get >> around. >> >> So I am totally hacked off that it was a secret closed show and so I never >> knew about it. >> I could have been there in less than three hours. door to door. >> >> Whoever hid this event form the greater collecting world should be made to >> key in the PDP8 bootstrap 1024 times!!! >> >> Seriously though, it would have been nice to have gone > I was thinking much the same thing. It's only a train ride for me -- > OK, a long train ride, but still. I even have a few friends in Berlin > I could have couch-surfed with. :-( > > From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 29 10:15:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:15:26 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5632380E.8060908@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-29 14:39, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Moving the boards after before the DLV-11 was an attempt to see if > Noel's idea around the DLV-11 not passing the grant might have been an > issue, so not completely random! However, I've been guilty of plenty > of random testing before! Well, not important. We're now beyond that point. The boards are working well enough that we can address them... > I unfortunately don't have an extender card... I just searched eBay > for a few things, but didn't see any. Do they have a part number or > some other description that I might look for? I have no idea if they have any designation or part number. I bet they do, but I don't remember seeing any on my extenders, and I'm not close to them now, so I can't check. Looking through ebay, I found one 2-slot extended here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Generic-W984A-Extension-Board-USED-/221810115382?hash=item33a4e9c336 That will give you an idea what they look like. I've seen 2-, 4- and 6-slot versions. Obviously you can use several 2-slot ones if you need 4 or 6 slots extended. Johnny > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Even better. Sorry for writing responses without checking what else is in my >> inbox. I've caught up now, though. >> >> And you definitely look like you got a stuck bit in there. >> All of the errors show expected and received data, and in all cases bit 13 >> is on while it shouldn't be. >> >> Could be a bad bus driver, a bad connection, or something more funny. But >> start with the obvious ones. Do you have any extender cards so that you can >> access the card with the power on, and measure signals. Checking the source >> of bit 13 on output and trace if the signal is always on somewhere would be >> a good exercise. >> >> Do someone remember if there are some register in the RLV11 that can be >> written and read back getting the same data out again? That could also be >> interested to test things with... >> >> Johnny >> >> >> On 2015-10-28 21:58, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>> >>> Thanks John, I think the insanity is my own! After changing those >>> switches I accidentally put the M8014 above the M8013. I've swapped >>> them and now get slightly different results: >>> >>> One note, it now takes a while for it to start printing anything, >>> which I think might mean it's running some of the first test >>> successfully before getting to these. Earlier runs would start >>> printing errors immediately. >>> >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00037 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023576 >>> RLMP: CRC OF DA+3 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> EXP'D: 145554 REC'D: 175554 >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00038 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023634 >>> RLMP: CRC OF CRC OF DA+4 ERROR (SERIAL DATA PATH) >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> EXP'D: 151554 REC'D: 171554 >>> >>> CVRLA DVC FTL ERR 00039 ON UNIT 00 TST 032 SUB 000 PC: 023730 >>> MAINT. FILL/EMPTY FIFO DMA DATA TRANSFER COMPARE ERROR >>> CONTROLLER: 174400 DRIVE: 0 >>> BEFORE COMMAND: CS: 112200 BA: 003762 DA: 155552 MP: 175555 >>> TIME OF ERROR: CS: 000200 BA: 005760 DA: 155560 MP: 175554 171554 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004762 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004764 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> BA: 005760 DA: 155560 ADDR: 004766 EXP'D: 155555 REC'D 175555 >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 3:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 03:40:46PM -0500, Ben Sinclair wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well I just figured out something important...The switch numbers on my >>>>> board backwards! I was going over the docs again, and noticed that MSB >>>>> and LSB in their board diagram were on the wrong sides, compared to >>>>> the switch numbers referenced on the next page. I'm not sure if that's >>>>> just the way it is, or maybe someone replaced my switches at some >>>>> point. After changing my switches I can now read 774400, which gives >>>>> me 144201. >>>>> >>>>> The VRLAC0 diagnostic now goes further, but it thinks something is >>>>> wrong. Now of course I have no idea what it thinks is wrong here! >>>> >>>> >>>> Bit 11 of the CSR seems to be stuck on. That's the "bad CRC" (or write >>>> check error) bit ... definitely shouldn't be on after a bus init. >>>> Maybe look at some other registers to see if that bit's on everywhere >>>> (possibly bad bus xcvr if so), otherwise some other insanity? >>>> >>>> John Wilson >>>> D Bit >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 10:20:16 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 08:20:16 -0700 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151028164303.272F218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56310613.40703@update.uu.se> <20151028204620.GA14187@dbit.dbit.com> <56314E38.1070305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > I unfortunately don't have an extender card... I just searched eBay > for a few things, but didn't see any. Do they have a part number or > some other description that I might look for? If you need an extender card just buy a new one from Douglas Electronics. I recently bought a 6-DE-8-C ($60) and a 6-DE-11-C ($40). I rarely see them listed for less than that on eBay. (Also bought a 6-DE-2 S-100 extender from them for $12 while I was at it.) http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-8.html The 6-DE-8 is a quad-width, dual-height DEC compatible extender board with 144 contacts (72/side) on .125" centers on 4 tabs. It is available as a bare board or with 72-125C-EL connectors installed (6-DE-8-C option). Height 8.43" Width 10.436" http://www.douglas.com/index.php/6-de-11.html The 6-DE-11 is a dual-width, dual-height DEC compatible extender board with 72 contacts (36/side) on .125" centers on 2 tabs. It is available as a bare board or with 72-125C-EL connectors installed (6-DE-11-C option). Height 8.43" Width 5.2" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 29 11:38:11 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > A while back I was talking to someone else who suggested using a ribbon > cable from the controller to directly inside the drive. I've heard that suggestion too... > That technically will fit if I remove the ribbon inside the drive that > goes to the external connectors, but then I won't have a terminator > installed. I do have a terminator though! The cable from the CPU would have to have two connectors on the RL02 end; one would plug into the drive's logic board, and the other to the outbound connector, where you can plug in the terminator. AFAIK that cable is purely a bus (i.e. no radial per-drive wires), so you should just be able to run it to the second connector, no issue. However, I'm too lazy to check to make sure that's absolutely 100% accurate. :-) > I think what I really need, since I don't have a cab kit or anything, > is a bc80m, which I believe is a ribbon with a ground lug on the > controller side, and whatever type of connector the drive uses on the > other end. I think you mean a Berg connector which will plug directly into the RLV11, not "ground lug", right? Yes, if you don't have a cab kit, that's the cable you need. It's not a ribbon cable, but a round cable (the connectors the drives use only come in regular cable form, not ribbon cable - AFAIK). > Not that I can even find a cable like that anywhere currently... RLOx cables of _any_ kind are very hard to find. There are discussions under way about making new ones; there is a supply (used) of the wierd-ass connector that plugs into the back of the drive which could be used. > I unfortunately don't have an extender card... Others have pointed you at Douglas; here's the page for all their extender cards: http://www.douglas.com/index.php/off-the-shelf-solutions/bread-boards-by-function/board-extender.html which includes a hex, but those aren't any use (that I can think of) to people with QBUS machines. (Useful things to have it you're trying to maintain a vintage PDP-11; one is, perforce, forced to become one's own Field Circus person - unless you're lucky and happen to live close to a PDP-11 hardware expert who's willing to come salve one's machine.) > From: Johnny Billquist > Well, not important. We're now beyond that point. The boards are > working well enough that we can address them... Well, but he might still have a problem on them. Although fixing such would be a challenge... Noel From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 29 11:52:24 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:52:24 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! I did find someone who has the bc80m cable available, which I believe is a ribbon type of connector with a ground strap on one end, then a round cable to the berg connector for the back of the RL02. I think it's the cable pictured here: http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html Does that sound right? The RLV11 and RLV12 seem hard to find, at least on eBay, so fixing this one might be the way to go! Of course, I'll snag an extra if I see one for a decent price. Feel free to move to Iowa and help me with my PDP, Noel! On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > A while back I was talking to someone else who suggested using a ribbon > > cable from the controller to directly inside the drive. > > I've heard that suggestion too... > > > That technically will fit if I remove the ribbon inside the drive that > > goes to the external connectors, but then I won't have a terminator > > installed. I do have a terminator though! > > The cable from the CPU would have to have two connectors on the RL02 end; > one would plug into the drive's logic board, and the other to the outbound > connector, where you can plug in the terminator. > > AFAIK that cable is purely a bus (i.e. no radial per-drive wires), so you > should just be able to run it to the second connector, no issue. However, > I'm too lazy to check to make sure that's absolutely 100% accurate. :-) > > > I think what I really need, since I don't have a cab kit or anything, > > is a bc80m, which I believe is a ribbon with a ground lug on the > > controller side, and whatever type of connector the drive uses on the > > other end. > > I think you mean a Berg connector which will plug directly into the RLV11, > not "ground lug", right? Yes, if you don't have a cab kit, that's the cable > you need. It's not a ribbon cable, but a round cable (the connectors the > drives use only come in regular cable form, not ribbon cable - AFAIK). > > > Not that I can even find a cable like that anywhere currently... > > RLOx cables of _any_ kind are very hard to find. There are discussions under > way about making new ones; there is a supply (used) of the wierd-ass > connector that plugs into the back of the drive which could be used. > > > > I unfortunately don't have an extender card... > > Others have pointed you at Douglas; here's the page for all their > extender cards: > > http://www.douglas.com/index.php/off-the-shelf-solutions/bread-boards-by-function/board-extender.html > > which includes a hex, but those aren't any use (that I can think of) to > people with QBUS machines. > > (Useful things to have it you're trying to maintain a vintage PDP-11; one is, > perforce, forced to become one's own Field Circus person - unless you're lucky > and happen to live close to a PDP-11 hardware expert who's willing to come > salve one's machine.) > > > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > Well, not important. We're now beyond that point. The boards are > > working well enough that we can address them... > > Well, but he might still have a problem on them. Although fixing such would > be a challenge... > > Noel -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 12:17:46 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:17:46 -0400 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks! I did find someone who has the bc80m cable available, which I > believe is a ribbon type of connector with a ground strap on one end, > then a round cable to the berg connector for the back of the RL02. I > think it's the cable pictured here: > http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html Yes. That's a BC80M, but it's not a ribbon cable on the controller end, it's the splayed end of the round cable (12 pair + 1, IIRC) with crimped gold pins and a 44 position Berg connector. You can use those if you don't have a cab kit (which is really just a bracket for the rack, a 40-pin ribbon cable, and one of those odd ZIF connectors like on the back of the drive to transition from flat cable to round cable) but then you'll need a drive-to-drive RL cable. > The RLV11 and RLV12 seem hard to find, at least on eBay It's been a long time since these were easy to find. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 29 12:22:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:22:17 -0500 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2015 11:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Very interesting to hear of another scheme, but it's not > clear whether it applies to the Gemini auction memory. The > BiAX scheme shows cores with the holes (apertures as > they're called in the business) perpendicular to each > other. In contrast, the Gemini auction cores have two > apertures with the same orientation (a figure 8). Yes, but I'm pretty sure the concepts are related. The remanent flux in the non-volatile side of the core affects the flux hysteresis in the volatile side, so when you flip the flux polarity on the volatile side, you can see some effect caused by the non-volatile side. > - Another topic: what is a Honeywell Alert machine? > Searches are just bringing up some current-day "Honeywell > Instant Alert" messaging system. It was a 24-bit DTL machine designed for the X-15 project, and then used in a number of other projects. It is about 25 Lbs (without memory), draws 25 A at 5 V, and runs off a 3 MHz clock. It is constructed of 6 multilayer PC boards with ceramic flat packs on both sides. The boards are attached to a motherboard with flexible PCB, so there are no connectors inside the machine. They chose this for reliability, it makes it REALLY hard to work on. There are cold plates between the boards that conduct heat down to the baseplate. The instruction set was apparently modeled after some Honeywell business machine of the time. It has no floating point hardware, but DOES have hardware multiply and divide. I have gotten it to run, sort of. Since I have no memory for it, I can jam op codes into the data in plug and observe the speed at which the memory address ripples. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 29 12:24:03 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:24:03 -0500 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56325633.1060608@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2015 11:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Another topic: what is a Honeywell Alert machine? Searches > are just bringing up some current-day "Honeywell Instant > Alert" messaging system. Oh, one other thing, the Alert is supposed to be the second computer ever manufactured with integrated circuits. The first was the Apollo Guidance Computer. Jon From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Oct 29 12:37:04 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:37:04 -0500 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I only have one RL02, so I think that cable should work. I ordered it anyway! I'll keep an eye out for other controllers, but I think I will order an extender and attempt to debug the one I have. On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> Thanks! I did find someone who has the bc80m cable available, which I >> believe is a ribbon type of connector with a ground strap on one end, >> then a round cable to the berg connector for the back of the RL02. I >> think it's the cable pictured here: >> http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html > > Yes. That's a BC80M, but it's not a ribbon cable on the controller > end, it's the splayed end of the round cable (12 pair + 1, IIRC) with > crimped gold pins and a 44 position Berg connector. You can use those > if you don't have a cab kit (which is really just a bracket for the > rack, a 40-pin ribbon cable, and one of those odd ZIF connectors like > on the back of the drive to transition from flat cable to round cable) > but then you'll need a drive-to-drive RL cable. > >> The RLV11 and RLV12 seem hard to find, at least on eBay > > It's been a long time since these were easy to find. > > -ethan -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 29 12:44:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working Message-ID: <20151029174440.7094418C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Sinclair > the bc80m cable .. which I believe is a ribbon type of connector with a > ground strap on one end, then a round cable to the berg connector for > the back of the RL02. I think it's the cable pictured here: > http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html Yes, that's the cable. But there's no ribbon cable anywhere in it: the individual wires from the round cable go directly to the Berg (aka Du Pont) female connector, which plugs into the male Berg header on the board. The other end does not have a Berg connector, it's some sort of wierd-ass connector that I don't know the proper name for. (The RK0[67] also uses them, and I think maybe the MASSBUS too?) > The RLV11 and RLV12 seem hard to find, at least on eBay They come by occasionally. I can probably find an RLV12 for you if you want/need one. > so fixing this one might be the way to go! Fixing an RLV11 is not for hardware beginners. Think logic analyzer, at least. > From: Johnny Billquist > I would primarily expect 16 bits addresses to be used on a KDF-11, but > I could be wrong. 11/23 ODT addresses are always 18-bit (whether the MMU chip is installed or not); I don't know if attempting to look at memory above 56KB works without the MMU, though. > Early revisions only supported 18 bit addressing, but later models > supported 22 bit addressing. But how that is reflected in the micro-ODT > on a KDF-11 I don't know. I already bitched about this! Although it supports Q22 _on the bus_, their ODT only supports Q18. There's no way to fiddle with high memory, except via program! > I don't even know if it's actually micro-ODT, or some more primitive > console mode on that CPU. AFAIK, it's the same ODT as all the other QBUS -11's (03, 73, etc - although the /03 has the 'L' bootloader command that none of the others do, along with a couple of other odd minor ones like '@'). Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 12:45:40 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:45:40 -0400 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I only have one RL02, so I think that cable should work. I ordered it anyway! That cable (BC80M) will work even if you get a second drive. No matter how the first drive is attached to the controller, to add a drive, you remove the terminator from the first drive, add a drive-to-drive cable between the two drives, then move the terminator to the second drive. Can anyone with experience from back in the day comment on why there is a BC80M? Why all the controllers didn't just use the flat cable to a cab kit and a drive-to-drive cable? Cost? Length? EMI reduction from running the BC80M into a BA23, etc, and only pushing shielded cable outside the CPU enclosure? Is the flat-cable-and-cab-kit pre-FCC only? > I'll keep an eye out for other controllers, but I think I will order > an extender and attempt to debug the one I have. It seems to be mostly working, so with luck, it's a single IC, once you narrow it down. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 12:45:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:45:12 +0000 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: [RL cables] > AFAIK that cable is purely a bus (i.e. no radial per-drive wires), so you > should just be able to run it to the second connector, no issue. However, > I'm too lazy to check to make sure that's absolutely 100% accurate. :-) It is just a bus. The internal drive cable is just a lenght of 40 wire ribbon cable with 2 Berg sockets near one end and a single Berg socket at the other. The former plug onto the backs of the external cable connectors. The latter plugs into a header plug on the drive logic board. There is one thing to be aware of. One of the 'corner' pins, I forget which one, is the +5V supply for the terminator. It is (obviously) not bused between drives. But of course you do need to power the terminator. So if you make up an oddball ribbon cable you should cut the appropriate wire between the controller and the drive but leave it between the connector on the drive logic board and the conector for the terminator. [...] > > Not that I can even find a cable like that anywhere currently... > RLOx cables of _any_ kind are very hard to find. There are discussions under > way about making new ones; there is a supply (used) of the wierd-ass > connector that plugs into the back of the drive which could be used. It's a pity you're not in the UK, I have some RL cabling bits in the spares box. I could probably be persuaded to part with a twin-RL01 MINC.... -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 29 13:22:25 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:22:25 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <20151029174440.7094418C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151029174440.7094418C0F1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <563263E1.2020204@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-29 18:44, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ben Sinclair > > > the bc80m cable .. which I believe is a ribbon type of connector with a > > ground strap on one end, then a round cable to the berg connector for > > the back of the RL02. I think it's the cable pictured here: > > http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html > > Yes, that's the cable. But there's no ribbon cable anywhere in it: the > individual wires from the round cable go directly to the Berg (aka Du Pont) > female connector, which plugs into the male Berg header on the board. > > The other end does not have a Berg connector, it's some sort of wierd-ass > connector that I don't know the proper name for. (The RK0[67] also uses them, > and I think maybe the MASSBUS too?) The Massbus connector is similar, but about three times the size. > > Early revisions only supported 18 bit addressing, but later models > > supported 22 bit addressing. But how that is reflected in the micro-ODT > > on a KDF-11 I don't know. > > I already bitched about this! Although it supports Q22 _on the bus_, their > ODT only supports Q18. There's no way to fiddle with high memory, except > via program! Yuk. :-) > > I don't even know if it's actually micro-ODT, or some more primitive > > console mode on that CPU. > > AFAIK, it's the same ODT as all the other QBUS -11's (03, 73, etc - although > the /03 has the 'L' bootloader command that none of the others do, along with > a couple of other odd minor ones like '@'). I certainly seem to remember that some machines had a rather different interface than the Micro-ODT one, but maybe they were all various early Unibus-machines. Can't remember for sure. I tried to stay away from machines that had the serial console interface to the hardware. I prefer front panels. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 29 13:26:43 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:26:43 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-29 18:45, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: >> I only have one RL02, so I think that cable should work. I ordered it anyway! > > That cable (BC80M) will work even if you get a second drive. No > matter how the first drive is attached to the controller, to add a > drive, you remove the terminator from the first drive, add a > drive-to-drive cable between the two drives, then move the terminator > to the second drive. > > Can anyone with experience from back in the day comment on why there > is a BC80M? Why all the controllers didn't just use the flat cable to > a cab kit and a drive-to-drive cable? Cost? Length? EMI reduction > from running the BC80M into a BA23, etc, and only pushing shielded > cable outside the CPU enclosure? Is the flat-cable-and-cab-kit > pre-FCC only? When you had machines with an RL-drive "internal", you normally did not use a cab kit. That was for external drives. The same is true for all other DEC drives I know as well. I've certainly seen direct cabling internally for SDI drives as well as external cabling for RX50 and TK50. But the only machine I know have an "internal" RL drive is the VAX-86x0, but maybe there were others as well... And no, the VAX do not have a cab kit for the RL drive. Direct cable from the RLV21 to the RL02. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 13:52:18 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:52:18 -0700 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In case anyone happens to be looking for the cab kit, conflansrd / JT Computer has had one listed on eBay for a while: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151628333033 CK-RLV1A-KA 15' CABLE RLV12 M8061 CABKIT FOR BA23 (USED) Asking $50, but they have been known to accept lower offers. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 14:22:43 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:22:43 -0400 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > In case anyone happens to be looking for the cab kit, conflansrd / JT > Computer has had one listed on eBay for a while: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151628333033 > CK-RLV1A-KA 15' CABLE RLV12 M8061 CABKIT FOR BA23 (USED) That's not the cab kit I was thinking of, but it's _a_ cab kit. The one I'm thinking of (and can't find a picture online of) is a black-painted metal bracket with space to mount two of those ZIF connectors, with a bit of bent metal that positions a threaded hole about the same relationship to the drive cable as the strain-relief screw point on the back of the drives. It's really just a metal box with 4 sides, a hole for the ZIF connectors, and open to the side with the round cables, with a lip for that screw. You mount this metal box somewhere on your H960 (or other rack) and run a BC08 cable into your RL11. I know I have one on my 11/24, and I probably have 2-3 more for other systems. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 14:35:04 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:35:04 +0000 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > When you had machines with an RL-drive "internal", you normally did not > use a cab kit. That was for external drives. The same is true for all > other DEC drives I know as well. I've certainly seen direct cabling > internally for SDI drives as well as external cabling for RX50 and TK50. The RL01 version of the MINC doesn;t use the cab kit. It uses that Berg-RL cable from the RLV11 in the MINC chassis to the first RL01, then the normal RL-RL cable between the drives. I am not sure if that's an 'internal drive', the 2 RL01s are fitted into a small rack cabinet, the MINC chassis fits on top held down by 2 captive screws, it doesn't mount on slide rails or anything like that. Conversely the VAX11/730 has an RL02 controller as part of the IDC (Integrated Disk Controller, it talks directly to internal CPU buses rather than sitting on the Unibus). Here, there is a Berg-Berg cable from the IDC to a connector on the CPU distribution panel (which also carries the console terminal connector, etc) and then RL-RL cables from that to the first RL02 and between RL02s. Again, I don't know if you call that an internal drive, the CPU is a separate rackmouting box, the drive is another rackmounitng unit, but it was common to have 'packaged' configurations of this machine, some of which included RL02s. -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 29 15:37:42 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:37:42 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56328396.80808@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-29 20:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> In case anyone happens to be looking for the cab kit, conflansrd / JT >> Computer has had one listed on eBay for a while: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151628333033 >> CK-RLV1A-KA 15' CABLE RLV12 M8061 CABKIT FOR BA23 (USED) > > That's not the cab kit I was thinking of, but it's _a_ cab kit. > > The one I'm thinking of (and can't find a picture online of) is a > black-painted metal bracket with space to mount two of those ZIF > connectors, with a bit of bent metal that positions a threaded hole > about the same relationship to the drive cable as the strain-relief > screw point on the back of the drives. It's really just a metal box > with 4 sides, a hole for the ZIF connectors, and open to the side with > the round cables, with a lip for that screw. You mount this metal box > somewhere on your H960 (or other rack) and run a BC08 cable into your > RL11. I know I have one on my 11/24, and I probably have 2-3 more for > other systems. Sounds like the typical cab kit for large cabinets. Not something you normally want if you have a BA23... :-) Ie. there are several can kits, for different cabs. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Oct 29 15:41:36 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:41:36 +0100 Subject: Trying to get my RLV11 working In-Reply-To: References: <20151029163811.E7D5E18C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <563264E3.3010202@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56328480.4040309@update.uu.se> On 2015-10-29 20:35, tony duell wrote: >> >> When you had machines with an RL-drive "internal", you normally did not >> use a cab kit. That was for external drives. The same is true for all >> other DEC drives I know as well. I've certainly seen direct cabling >> internally for SDI drives as well as external cabling for RX50 and TK50. > > The RL01 version of the MINC doesn;t use the cab kit. It uses that Berg-RL > cable from the RLV11 in the MINC chassis to the first RL01, then the normal > RL-RL cable between the drives. I am not sure if that's an 'internal drive', the > 2 RL01s are fitted into a small rack cabinet, the MINC chassis fits on top held > down by 2 captive screws, it doesn't mount on slide rails or anything like that. > > Conversely the VAX11/730 has an RL02 controller as part of the IDC (Integrated > Disk Controller, it talks directly to internal CPU buses rather than sitting on the > Unibus). Here, there is a Berg-Berg cable from the IDC to a connector on the > CPU distribution panel (which also carries the console terminal connector, etc) and > then RL-RL cables from that to the first RL02 and between RL02s. Again, I don't > know if you call that an internal drive, the CPU is a separate rackmouting box, > the drive is another rackmounitng unit, but it was common to have 'packaged' > configurations of this machine, some of which included RL02s. I used "internal" in a somewhat loose sense. I think of it as internal if it was intended to be in the same cabinet. Thus, a short distance between the CPU and the drive, and the cabling do not go outside that cabinet. Now, you could have a cab kit even under those circumstances. I think mostly of "internal" as when the whole package was delivered that way from DEC. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 29 15:28:06 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:28:06 -0500 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56328156.7070300@charter.net> Looking at the document at: http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the organization of legends and breaks in line. Since I have what I think is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08. However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36 bits each. I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of light panels. For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power supply, platter and display and display measurements, see: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08) The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the controller (RF08) electronics, etc. (The very first photo shows some mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos). There is also a photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container) platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel. In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components, and a text file with measurements. Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display. I didn't want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS. JRJ On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the indicator panel, > > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which signals are > > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell where the > > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not > > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and almost > > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right swap, > > there are no fields which span the boundary). > > So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt > > The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we see one. > > Noel > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 29 15:31:50 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:31:50 +0000 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: <56328156.7070300@charter.net> References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> Message-ID: <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> Hi Jay Is this what you want me to look at with a view to panel reproduction ? Rod On 29/10/15 20:28, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Looking at the document at: > > http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf > > The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the > organization of legends and breaks in line. Since I have what I think > is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe > to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08. > > However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36 > bits each. I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of > light panels. > > For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power > supply, platter and display and display measurements, see: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM > > I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder > Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08) > > The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the > controller (RF08) electronics, etc. (The very first photo shows some > mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely > disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I > recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple > vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos). There is also a > photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container) > platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel. > > In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components, > and a text file with measurements. > > Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display. I didn't > want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS. > > JRJ > > > On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the indicator panel, >> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which signals are >> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell where the >> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not >> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and almost >> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right swap, >> > there are no fields which span the boundary). >> >> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt >> >> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we see one. >> >> Noel >> >> From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 29 15:35:25 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:35:25 -0500 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: <56328156.7070300@charter.net> References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> Message-ID: <5632830D.7070809@charter.net> I apparently didn't create the sharable link I intended to. Try https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM&usp=sharing JRJ On 10/29/2015 3:28 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Looking at the document at: > > http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf > > The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the > organization of legends and breaks in line. Since I have what I think > is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe > to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08. > > However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36 > bits each. I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of > light panels. > > For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power > supply, platter and display and display measurements, see: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM > > I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder > Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08) > > The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the > controller (RF08) electronics, etc. (The very first photo shows some > mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely > disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I > recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple > vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos). There is also a > photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container) > platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel. > > In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components, > and a text file with measurements. > > Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display. I didn't > want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS. > > JRJ > > > On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the indicator panel, >> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which signals are >> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell where the >> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not >> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and almost >> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right swap, >> > there are no fields which span the boundary). >> >> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt >> >> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we see one. >> >> Noel >> >> From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 29 16:27:41 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:27:41 -0700 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" In-Reply-To: <5631299E.6070803@willomail.co.uk> References: <563081AC.3040006@jwsss.com> <5630826F.1090401@jwsss.com> <005301d11165$18a6aac0$49f40040$@gmail.com> <5631299E.6070803@willomail.co.uk> Message-ID: <04c001d11290$a4d2e410$ee78ac30$@yahoo.ca> I was kind of eyeing this too but the shipping is a problem. I didn't know Teletype did the 'private label' kind of thing? So $2500 is reasonable for something like that? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Williams Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 1:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell "Teletype" > > That looks pretty clean. I haven't seen one in the UK at anywhere near that price. Looking at US prices its almost worth shipping if I could find a set of 50hz gears.... > They do pop up now and then. I actually purchased mine though Ebay, last year for ?300. The seller originally had it listed for ?500 but had no bidders. Cheers, Dave ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 29 16:36:41 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:36:41 -0700 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? Message-ID: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is all opinion): 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? Is a Rev 2 anything special? Thanks! From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 17:28:57 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:28:57 -0500 Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify Message-ID: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> Looking for help identifying these 2 pieces of Massey Dickinson equipment. I was told this machine is a trainer of sorts, but have my doubts: https://goo.gl/photos/ktBMTiYXxLZd8dH1A But per the research I have done, the only reference of Massey Dickinson and PDP8s are for Data Acquisition, I assume that is what this machine is for (was interfaced to a PDP8i): https://goo.gl/photos/cqwTHmb6QhGKfgwy9 Thanks everyone! -Nick From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 17:36:19 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:36:19 -0000 Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify In-Reply-To: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> References: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <031b01d1129a$3b2ea030$b18be090$@gmail.com> Any ideas what the legends say. Could be some sort of trainer. Lots used analog simulation.. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen > Sent: 29 October 2015 22:29 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify > > Looking for help identifying these 2 pieces of Massey Dickinson equipment. > > I was told this machine is a trainer of sorts, but have my doubts: > https://goo.gl/photos/ktBMTiYXxLZd8dH1A > > But per the research I have done, the only reference of Massey Dickinson > and PDP8s are for Data Acquisition, I assume that is what this machine is for > (was interfaced to a PDP8i): https://goo.gl/photos/cqwTHmb6QhGKfgwy9 > > Thanks everyone! > > -Nick > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 29 17:37:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:37:52 +0000 Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify In-Reply-To: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> References: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56329FC0.9070801@btinternet.com> Looks a bit like a simulator of some sort. Its difficult to see what the modules are. It could be an analog system. Rod On 29/10/15 22:28, Nick Allen wrote: > Looking for help identifying these 2 pieces of Massey Dickinson > equipment. > > I was told this machine is a trainer of sorts, but have my doubts: > https://goo.gl/photos/ktBMTiYXxLZd8dH1A > > But per the research I have done, the only reference of Massey > Dickinson and PDP8s are for Data Acquisition, I assume that is what > this machine is for (was interfaced to a PDP8i): > https://goo.gl/photos/cqwTHmb6QhGKfgwy9 > > Thanks everyone! > > -Nick > > From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 17:44:18 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:44:18 -0500 Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify In-Reply-To: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> References: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5632A142.3050008@gmail.com> here are some close up photos: https://goo.gl/photos/1hxkfkei4jKoWXtP8 https://goo.gl/photos/jhaqLndqbkqX4kV68 https://goo.gl/photos/dmZVBV3gwGJqSZK58 https://goo.gl/photos/sKJorbim7eRTsdVQ8 https://goo.gl/photos/sy6UcUCCPnRHB4ic8 On 10/29/2015 5:28 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Looking for help identifying these 2 pieces of Massey Dickinson > equipment. > > I was told this machine is a trainer of sorts, but have my doubts: > https://goo.gl/photos/ktBMTiYXxLZd8dH1A > > But per the research I have done, the only reference of Massey > Dickinson and PDP8s are for Data Acquisition, I assume that is what > this machine is for (was interfaced to a PDP8i): > https://goo.gl/photos/cqwTHmb6QhGKfgwy9 > > Thanks everyone! > > -Nick > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 17:58:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:58:26 -0000 Subject: Massey Dickinson - help identify In-Reply-To: <5632A142.3050008@gmail.com> References: <56329DA9.7080503@gmail.com> <5632A142.3050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <033101d1129d$52815c70$f7841550$@gmail.com> Well I guess you could use it for many things. It looks like one paper tape reader or perhaps punch, I think there are 60 lamp drivers, a few AND gates, lots of OR gates. A counter. Delay circuits and memories. So a Trainer is possible... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen > Sent: 29 October 2015 22:44 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Massey Dickinson - help identify > > here are some close up photos: > > https://goo.gl/photos/1hxkfkei4jKoWXtP8 > > https://goo.gl/photos/jhaqLndqbkqX4kV68 > > https://goo.gl/photos/dmZVBV3gwGJqSZK58 > > https://goo.gl/photos/sKJorbim7eRTsdVQ8 > > https://goo.gl/photos/sy6UcUCCPnRHB4ic8 > > On 10/29/2015 5:28 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Looking for help identifying these 2 pieces of Massey Dickinson > > equipment. > > > > I was told this machine is a trainer of sorts, but have my doubts: > > https://goo.gl/photos/ktBMTiYXxLZd8dH1A > > > > But per the research I have done, the only reference of Massey > > Dickinson and PDP8s are for Data Acquisition, I assume that is what > > this machine is for (was interfaced to a PDP8i): > > https://goo.gl/photos/cqwTHmb6QhGKfgwy9 > > > > Thanks everyone! > > > > -Nick > > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Oct 29 20:48:07 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 21:48:07 -0400 Subject: Honeywell "Teletype" Message-ID: <1001b6.7edf5237.43642657@aol.com> it would only be reasonable if you needed it to compete a display that used that particular cased unit. adn you really had to have it... otherwise as a 33 it is vastly overpriced! Ed# In a message dated 10/29/2015 2:27:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, unclefalter at yahoo.ca writes: I was kind of eyeing this too but the shipping is a problem. I didn't know Teletype did the 'private label' kind of thing? So $2500 is reasonable for something like that? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Williams Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 1:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell "Teletype" > > That looks pretty clean. I haven't seen one in the UK at anywhere near that price. Looking at US prices its almost worth shipping if I could find a set of 50hz gears.... > They do pop up now and then. I actually purchased mine though Ebay, last year for ?300. The seller originally had it listed for ?500 but had no bidders. Cheers, Dave ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 21:57:57 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:57:57 -0400 Subject: Omnibus TSC8-75 schematic? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CF6@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CF6@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, Call me if you can. Paul 217 766 7690 On 10/28/15, Rick Bensene wrote: > While there are documents out there that describe the function of the > Educomp/Quodata TSC8-75 Timeshare System Controller for Omnibus PDP 8 > machines, I have searched high and low, and there doesn't seem to be > /any/ schematics for it anywhere. > > I know this was a proprietary board that did some pretty interesting > things to trap IOT, JMP, JSR, and HLT/OSR instructions on the PDP > 8/e/f/m/a machines and provide additional capabilities versus DEC's > Memory Extension and Timeshare Control board. > > I have a fantasy of being able to run ETOS on real PDP 8/e hardware, but > I don't have one of these boards, and they seem to be pretty much > unobtainium. > > There are a few of them out there, but obviously, the owners of these > aren't in the mood to submit them for reverse engineering. Perhaps > someone out there has already done this, or someone has documentation on > the board that may include schematics that simply hasn't scanned it yet. > Bitsavers comes up with nothing under the DEC archives, and there's no > sign of Quodata or Educomp folders. > > I have read the descriptions of the function of the board, and the IOTs > that make it do its things, but I just don't have the expertise on the > guts of the Omnibus PDP 8 machines to be able to take this information > and create a design for a board that performs these functions. I've > also looked at the code in SimH that emulates the functionality of the > board, but again, it isn't enough information for me to be able to > figure out how to implement it in hardware. > > In any case, I think it'd be interesting to see if one of these boards > could be reproduced. > > I've found some old ClassicCMP list archives that mention some stuff > about ETOS documentation and folks that worked for Educomp/Quodata that > were involved in the creation of ETOS and this board, but the thread > died over 10 years ago. > > I am probably wishing for something that doesn't exist, but I figured > I'd ask anyway, as maybe someone has stumbled across some of this stuff > and just hasn't made it public yet. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 00:45:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 23:45:10 -0600 Subject: Omnibus TSC8-75 schematic? In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CF6@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: If a schematic isn't available, but a unit was made available on loan to reverse-engineer, I'd be willing to do it. Recently I reverse-engineered a schematic and the firmware of a Zendex ZX-200A Multibus floppy disk controller, which replaces both the iSBC-201 single density controller and iSBC-202 double density controller used in Intel MDS systems: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/zendex/zx-200a/zx-200a.pdf https://github.com/brouhaha/zx200a-fw From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 30 01:40:10 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 06:40:10 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Update Message-ID: <563310CA.2070901@btinternet.com> Hi Guys As per previous update I'm off to my silk screen printers today. Thanks to lots of help from list members I have identified most of the different PDP8/e panel types that exist. 1. PDP-8/e Type A: Selector switch starts from _vertical (12 o'clock)_ position There _is _a white line around the selector switch area. There are _no _vertical dividers between groups of three lamps 2. PDP-8/e Type B: Selector switch starts from _-15deg (11 o'clock)_ position There is _no_ white line around the selector switch area. There _are_ vertical dividing lines between groups of three lamps 3. PDP-8/f: White border and masthead with DEC logo and address Layout differs from 8/e but lamps and switches retain their positions Otherwise color scheme as per 8/e and address Corners on text and color area are rounded off. There is a pdp8/f logo to the right of the RUN light 4. PDP-8/m: White border and masthead with DEC logo and address Layout differs from 8/e but lamps and switches retain their positions Otherwise color scheme as per 8/e Corners on text and color area are rounded off. There is a pdp8/m logo to the right of the RUN light 5. PDP-8/lab (Anybody want one of these?) 6. PDP-8/industrial (Anybody want one of these?) All panels share a common basic clear plastic blank with pre-cut switch positions I intend to have both 8/e and 8/f plus 8/m (ie two designs) printed with just shared features. The detail that makes them different will be added later. I'll ask for a matte finish. I'll tighten up the QA on how the lines delineate the holes. I'll sort out the lock and switch hole positions (coordinates from the cutouts would help if you have them) *_Work in progress_* 11/4X,11/5X,11/6X and 11/7X *_Under consideration_* Best way to produce Large, Custom and non - DEC panels I'm sure I have missed things off and just as sure somebody will tell me! Rod Smallwood From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 04:29:32 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:29:32 +0100 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? Message-ID: ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know FORTRAN and assembly languages. ? http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 30 06:02:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:02:28 +0000 Subject: The list seems very quiet today Message-ID: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> The list seems very quiet to-day. I have had only one post this morning. Anybody know why? Rod Smallwood From wilson at dbit.com Fri Oct 30 07:50:09 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:50:09 -0400 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151030125009.GA9660@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 11:02:28AM +0000, rod wrote: >The list seems very quiet to-day. >I have had only one post this morning. >Anybody know why? I've been getting echos of the RF08/RS08 posts. Happens every few days. Either the list server is getting a bit senile, or I am. Or both. John Wilson D Bit From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 07:54:07 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:54:07 +0100 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: > The list seems very quiet to-day. > I have had only one post this morning. > Anybody know why? No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 30 07:59:05 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 08:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The list seems very quiet today Message-ID: <20151030125905.4054218C0FA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rod Smallwood > The list seems very quiet to-day. I have had only one post this > morning. Anybody know why? They're all tired out from the large amount of traffic over the past couple of days? ;-) But seriously, it's not quite 9AM yet now, on the US East Coast (and I would guess the plurality of list members are in the US), so that's almost certainly part of it, too. Noel From rickb at bensene.com Fri Oct 30 09:04:50 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:04:50 -0700 Subject: Omnibus TSC8-75 schematic? References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029CF6@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029D06@mail.bensene.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > If a schematic isn't available, but a unit was made available on loan to > reverse-engineer, I'd be willing to do it. At this stage, it appears that no original schematic for this board has been uncovered. Efforts are currently underway to reverse-engineer an actual TSC8-75 board and derive a useful schematic. It is hopeful there will be something available relatively soon. The particular board being reverse-engineered has a serial number of <700, so it will not have the ESME IOT implemented, but it has been discovered that ETOS does not require this IOT in order to run properly. ETOS will run slightly more efficiently if the board supports the ESME IOT (6365), but it will still run just fine on the boards that don't have the feature. I'll try to post updates here as the project progresses. It is my hope to be able to construct a functional equivalent of one of these boards, and get ETOS running on my physical 8/e system. The biggest challenge is going to be replacing the pesky SP380A (12 used on the board) and SP314A (one used on the board) chips used for Omnibus interface, but there's a lot of discussion in the mailing list archives about replacements that seem to work , so it shouldn't be too difficult. -Rick From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 30 09:42:26 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:42:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex QD32 Message-ID: Hi all, I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR" gives only an error, so I assume they are faulty/incomplete. That's what I get: >>> b dua0 2..1..0.. Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2 MicroVAX I 16-SEP-1985 09:00:00 uEVM>DIR ---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR Is there by any chance also a diagnostic manual for this stuff? Christian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 09:55:49 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: > The list seems very quiet to-day. > I have had only one post this morning. > Anybody know why? Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... extinct? or just too shameful? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 30 09:59:36 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic Message-ID: <20151030145936.8EE8F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I love this person's style: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336 It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35! Noel From brian at marstella.net Fri Oct 30 10:05:56 2015 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:05:56 -0400 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I saw a couple of posts; thought it seemed a little slow today as well. I did see Liam's post regarding Fortran, which I did have a semester of back in '93. Probably a little rusty as there just isn't a lot of need for it... On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: > >> The list seems very quiet to-day. >> I have had only one post this morning. >> Anybody know why? >> > > Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? > > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > >> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... >> > > extinct? or just too shameful? > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 30 10:14:19 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:14:19 +0000 Subject: Front Panel Update Message-ID: <5633894B.50806@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I just got back from the meeting at the silk screen shop. They are going to start by printing ten PDP8/e panels with the details that are common to both A and B. I'm sending them a couple of overlays. One to convert the common panel to an A Type and the other to make it into a B type. Four A type and Three B type are sold. This means I have three slots left that can become either an A or a B. Same goes for 8/f and 8/m . They will print up to the common point and an overlay will turn it into either an /f or /m This time the stock will be a bit better. Two /f have gone so eight slots are available to become a /f or a /m So to be able to make an 8/e Type A or Type B takes One precut perspex sheet, One screen for each color (two) One screen for the white One matte finish coating Two screens for the overlays One screen for the lamp view ports on the back. Total six silk screens Then I'll add in packing and shipping cost. I'll freeze the order on Monday Then work out the unit price and add in packing and shipping cost. Then call for payment from those without prepaid orders. So there are three 8/e A or B slots and eight 8/f or 8/m slots available until Monday Rod Smallwood From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Oct 30 10:16:36 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:16:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic In-Reply-To: <20151030145936.8EE8F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151030145936.8EE8F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1827801896.8184517.1446218196391.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Noel, I've observed this quite some times now on ebay: Some people put up auctions for a price and the auctions end with no bidders. Afterwards, they re-list the items long term (so no auction) with higher prices. They go fishing for the rare number of people interested in these things. Cheers, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > Von: Noel Chiappa > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Gesendet: 14:59 Freitag, 30.Oktober 2015 > Betreff: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic > > I love this person's style: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336 > > It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35! > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 10:28:38 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:28:38 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CFBD9DF-1DE6-419C-8F3B-41EE411763D3@comcast.net> > On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages > > To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know > FORTRAN and assembly languages. > ? > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/ Neat. I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is qualified for that job. Assembly language programming, on a machine with such large memory as 64k? Sure. Fortran? Algol? Even those who don't know can likely learn it easily. The key requirement is the mindset needed to work on old computers, with (by today's standards) slow execution and small memory. That's something most of us have, either from actually doing it, or from being interested in it. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Oct 30 10:49:20 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:49:20 +0000 (WET) Subject: The list seems very quiet today Message-ID: <01PSJ0GGE7K200ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Fred Cisin wrote: > > On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: > > The list seems very quiet to-day. > > I have had only one post this morning. > > Anybody know why? > > Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? > Nah - VCF-Paris is just a decoy to distract the few who might have heard about the ultra secret VCF-Madrid. > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > > No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... > > extinct? or just too shameful? > Too busy trying to contact NASA to see if they are willing to take on someone telecommuting across the Atlantic Ocean (after all, the difference in distance to where the probes are now would not be of any significance). Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jsw at ieee.org Fri Oct 30 10:54:42 2015 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:54:42 -0500 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <1CFBD9DF-1DE6-419C-8F3B-41EE411763D3@comcast.net> References: <1CFBD9DF-1DE6-419C-8F3B-41EE411763D3@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages >> >> To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know >> FORTRAN and assembly languages. >> ? >> >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/ > > Neat. I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is qualified for that job. Assembly language programming, on a machine with such large memory as 64k? Sure. Fortran? Algol? Even those who don't know can likely learn it easily. > > The key requirement is the mindset needed to work on old computers, with (by today's standards) slow execution and small memory. That's something most of us have, either from actually doing it, or from being interested in it. > > paul > > Additionally a QSL Card from Oort Cloud or Kuiper Belt to hang in the Ham Shack would be nice. Jerry wb9mri From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 10:55:04 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:55:04 -0500 Subject: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic In-Reply-To: <1827801896.8184517.1446218196391.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20151030145936.8EE8F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1827801896.8184517.1446218196391.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:16 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Noel, I've observed this quite some times now on ebay: Some people put up > > auctions for a price and the auctions end with no bidders. Afterwards, > they re-list the > > items long term (so no auction) with higher prices. They go fishing for the > > rare number of people interested in these things. > I saw something similar recently on Freegeek Portland's eBay store. They listed a customized Atari Falcon030 and it "sold" for $481. Then apparently the buyer backed out, so they relisted it, starting at $499. At http://ebay.to/1P9Zr0y it shows it as "Ended" but I don't see a buyer anywhere. > > > Cheers, > Pierre > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Message ----- > > Von: Noel Chiappa > > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > > Gesendet: 14:59 Freitag, 30.Oktober 2015 > > Betreff: There's hope... and then there's aggressively optimistic > > > > I love this person's style: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281835789336 > > > > It doesn't sell for $25? Fine, re-list it at $35! > > > > Noel > > > -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 11:01:38 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:01:38 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 02:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated. That there is an X3 group still advancing the language attests to that. While FORTRAN may be a 60-year old language, Fortran is not. As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language. When you need simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 30 11:21:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:21:43 -0500 Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk > attached to an Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test > and/or format the disk and so I'm looking for images of > the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 AFAIK). > Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ > boot, but I have not the faintest idea of how to start > anything in there; even a "DIR" How about HELP or even "?" I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program. Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the program won't support a Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II. Jon From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 11:30:59 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:30:59 -0400 Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 References: Message-ID: <82714926469843DE95C0742EC35441C6@310e2> Hi Jack, Unfortunately I can't access the pictures on VCF because I apparently annoyed the moderator Mike Brutman, but I really enjoyed the pics on Picasa; thanks for posting - always fun to see some of the European stuff. I didn't hear or see anything about VCF-Berlin either; a shame since I have friends and relatives in Berlin and nearby, and this would have been a great excuse to finally visit them again. Maybe next year... Will we see you at the World of Commodore this year on December 5? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:13 PM Subject: VCF-Berlin, 2015 Here are some of my photos from VCF-Berlin - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-2015 . More narrative is at the Vintage Computer Forum - http://tinyurl.com/vcfb-vcfd . Enjoy - I certainly did! Jack From Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com Fri Oct 30 11:34:35 2015 From: Sue.Skonetski at VMSSoftware.com (Sue Skonetski) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:34:35 -0400 Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> References: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <958A7E38-0DD1-4729-A9C7-7FC86B0FF573@VMSSoftware.com> Just something cool - VMS Software Inc. is located in what used to be the Emulex building in Bolton MA. Sue Skonetski > On Oct 30, 2015, at 12:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR" > How about HELP or even "?" > > I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program. > > Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the program won't support a Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II. > > Jon Sue Skonetski VP of Customer Advocacy Sue.Skonetski at vmssoftware.com Office: +1 (978) 451-0116 Mobile: +1 (603) 494-9886 Mit freundlichen Gr??en ? Avec mes meilleures salutations From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 30 11:37:35 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:37:35 -0500 Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56339CCF.8070806@charter.net> On 10/30/2015 9:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm trying to set up a MicroVAX II that has an SMD disk attached to an > Emulex QD32 controller. I need to test and/or format the disk and so I'm > looking for images of the Emulex diagnostic floppies (should be RX50 > AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but > I have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a > "DIR" gives only an error, so I assume they are faulty/incomplete. > That's what I get: > >>>> b dua0 > > 2..1..0.. > > Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2 MicroVAX I 16-SEP-1985 09:00:00 > > > uEVM>DIR > > ---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR > I also have a QD32. I have Emulex diagnostics, but on a TK50, and I don't have an image, nor do I have any diagnostic documentation. However, when I ran the diagnostic (many YEARS ago) on my uVax II (FVD32M) it was self-explanatory. The tape is VX9962004 Rev J. My notes say: FQD01M is the MSCP FORMAT program for a QD32 (and QD01 and SC03) for a PDP-11. FVD32M is the MSCP FORMAT program for a QD32 (and QD01 and SC41 and SC03) on a uVax. So this is the one you want. HELP is supposed to give help. DIR is supposed to list the diagnostics. > > > Is there by any chance also a diagnostic manual for this stuff? > > Christian > There is an Emulex QD32 manual on bitsavers, but it doesn't seem to have any info on the diagnostics. JRJ From db at db.net Fri Oct 30 11:35:15 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:35:15 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 09:01:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/30/2015 02:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages > > I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated. That there is an X3 group > still advancing the language attests to that. While FORTRAN may be a > 60-year old language, Fortran is not. Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem to still use Fortran. http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i > > As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language. When you > need simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go. > > --Chuck > > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Oct 30 12:38:42 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:38:42 -0500 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages > >To keep the Voyager 1 and 2 crafts going, NASA's new hire has to know >FORTRAN and assembly languages. >? > >http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/a17991/voyager-1-voyager-2-retiring-engineer/ > Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform? I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN and assembly language, but that was only 50 years ago. There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job at a time. All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output. But it did work well for that era. Jerome Fine From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 11:46:23 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:46:23 +0100 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <1CFBD9DF-1DE6-419C-8F3B-41EE411763D3@comcast.net> References: <1CFBD9DF-1DE6-419C-8F3B-41EE411763D3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 30 October 2015 at 16:28, Paul Koning wrote: > Neat. I would think that a large fraction of the membership of this list is qualified for that job. That's why I posted it! :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 11:52:24 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:52:24 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5633A048.6070809@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 09:35 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem > to still use Fortran. > > http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i Sorry, that URL gets me to a 404. Just the other day, I converted a 9 track tape from the 90s from Ft. George Meade that involved antenna design software. It was FORTRAN and compiled quite nicely under f77. So not as uncommon as people think, perhaps. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 11:55:35 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:55:35 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> References: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5633A107.4070105@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 10:38 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job at a > time. All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output. IBSYS and/or FMS don't qualify as operating systems? The usage of the 1401 to do unit record I/O was the original application of the term "SPOOL". Many use the term today, uncapitalized, without realizing that it's an acronym. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 30 07:54:56 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:54:56 -0500 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5E0DAD45-DCDD-4B2A-BB27-A8CA623F7F69@charter.net> No, not looking for a reproduction. Just posted it in case it would help folks with a possible RK11-C display panel concept. > On Oct 29, 2015, at 15:31, rod wrote: > > Hi Jay > Is this what you want me to look at with a view to panel reproduction ? > > Rod > > >> On 29/10/15 20:28, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Looking at the document at: >> >> http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf >> >> The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the >> organization of legends and breaks in line. Since I have what I think >> is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe >> to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08. >> >> However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36 >> bits each. I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of >> light panels. >> >> For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power >> supply, platter and display and display measurements, see: >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM >> >> I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder >> Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08) >> >> The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the >> controller (RF08) electronics, etc. (The very first photo shows some >> mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely >> disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I >> recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple >> vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos). There is also a >> photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container) >> platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel. >> >> In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components, >> and a text file with measurements. >> >> Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display. I didn't >> want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS. >> >> JRJ >> >> >>> On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the indicator panel, >>> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which signals are >>> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell where the >>> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not >>> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and almost >>> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right swap, >>> > there are no fields which span the boundary). >>> >>> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert: >>> >>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt >>> >>> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we see one. >>> >>> Noel > From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 08:07:10 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:07:10 +0100 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: <5E0DAD45-DCDD-4B2A-BB27-A8CA623F7F69@charter.net> References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> <5E0DAD45-DCDD-4B2A-BB27-A8CA623F7F69@charter.net> Message-ID: 2015-10-30 13:54 GMT+01:00 Jay Jaeger : > No, not looking for a reproduction. Just posted it in case it would help > folks with a possible RK11-C display panel concept. > Interesting. We also have a RF08 / RS08 combo. It came with two PDP-8/L machines. I am not sure if both PDP-8/L CPUs were connected to the RF08 simultaneously or how it was connected once upon a time since all cabling has been removed prior to us getting to it. The front panel look exactly the same. The drive and controller sits in a full height cabinet with the drive in the middle and the controller at the top. What is the plan with your RF08/ RS08? Is it possible to get it complete or is just parts? The RS08 seems to be a DF32 on steroids. The question is if it would be possible to have our unit working some day? Anyone tried to get these things to run? > > > On Oct 29, 2015, at 15:31, rod wrote: > > > > Hi Jay > > Is this what you want me to look at with a view to panel > reproduction ? > > > > Rod > > > > > >> On 29/10/15 20:28, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> Looking at the document at: > >> > >> > http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp-common/reference/drawings/peripherals/docs/DEC-08-HIEA-DA_RF08_Jun70.pdf > >> > >> The picture, though extremely fuzzy, matches my panel in the > >> organization of legends and breaks in line. Since I have what I think > >> is a complete RF08, and pieces of the drive (RS08), I think it is safe > >> to conclude that I have the panel from an RF08. > >> > >> However, the panel is designed to actually hold up to 8 lights of 36 > >> bits each. I have to believe that DEC used this setup for any number of > >> light panels. > >> > >> For photos of the drive electronics, controller electronics, power > >> supply, platter and display and display measurements, see: > >> > >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRTkVRX2NPMThILWM > >> > >> I posted detail display panel photos and measurements in subfolder > >> Display of this Google Drive folder (RF08-RS08) > >> > >> The main folder has photos of the drive (RS08) electronics and the > >> controller (RF08) electronics, etc. (The very first photo shows some > >> mouse droppings / seeds, which I cleaned up (though I did not entirely > >> disassemble the thing), and are less apparent in subsequent photos (I > >> recall there being even more extensive cleaning after the simple > >> vacuuming I did before taking most of the photos). There is also a > >> photo of the power supply and the (now separated from the container) > >> platter and a head or two as well as a photo of the display panel. > >> > >> In the Display sub-folder are photos of the panel and its components, > >> and a text file with measurements. > >> > >> Apologies in advance for the photo quality of the display. I didn't > >> want to use a flash, and so there was some camera shake, even with IS. > >> > >> JRJ > >> > >> > >>> On 10/26/2015 7:25 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >>> > I have just worked out the pattern on the cables to the > indicator panel, > >>> > which allows me, from the device schematics, to tell which > signals are > >>> > shown on which lights on the indicator panel - I can even tell > where the > >>> > spaces are between light groups (since those lights are not > >>> > connected). So I know now exactly what the panel shows, and > almost > >>> > certainly in which lights (although there might be a left/right > swap, > >>> > there are no fields which span the boundary). > >>> > >>> So here's the writeup on the RK11-C insert: > >>> > >>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_insert.txt > >>> > >>> The unusual light pattern should allow us to know, instantly, if we > see one. > >>> > >>> Noel > > > From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Oct 30 11:21:10 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:21:10 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... Message-ID: Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend itself to posting back. Just wanted to say hi. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From scaron at umich.edu Fri Oct 30 11:39:15 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:39:15 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> Message-ID: I work in scientific computing and occasionally still see FORTRAN codes around. Not totally dead yet ... You'd be surprised how many, say, R libraries are written in FORTRAN ... What concerns me is the amount of code these days that is being written in languages that has no formal standard at all. Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, the list goes on ... I wonder how much of it will still be useful in ten or fifteen years. Best, Sean On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 09:01:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/30/2015 02:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > ?Why NASA Needs a Programmer Fluent In 60-Year-Old Languages > > > > I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated. That there is an X3 group > > still advancing the language attests to that. While FORTRAN may be a > > 60-year old language, Fortran is not. > > Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem to > still use Fortran. > > http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i > > > > > As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language. When you > > need simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to > go. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Oct 30 11:44:52 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:44:52 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: > > I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over the > years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 units go on > ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be a jumble, mostly > to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, no always. Some have > had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. > > > > Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is all > opinion): > > > > 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is > in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its original > board replaced with a clone board, and some customization including a small > switch for power that was drilled into the back of the case was done. I > have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic chips. I also did some > repairs on the keyboard and it is fully functional, but the repairs involved > a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. > > 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is > in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? Is a > Rev 2 anything special? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Oct 30 11:44:52 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:44:52 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: > > I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over the > years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 units go on > ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be a jumble, mostly > to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, no always. Some have > had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. > > > > Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is all > opinion): > > > > 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is > in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its original > board replaced with a clone board, and some customization including a small > switch for power that was drilled into the back of the case was done. I > have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic chips. I also did some > repairs on the keyboard and it is fully functional, but the repairs involved > a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. > > 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is > in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? Is a > Rev 2 anything special? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > From db at db.net Fri Oct 30 12:02:27 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:02:27 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <5633A048.6070809@sydex.com> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> <5633A048.6070809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151030170227.GA62951@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 09:52:24AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/30/2015 09:35 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > Joe still loves his Fortran. In fact, many Scientist/Engineers seem > > to still use Fortran. > > > > http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/i > > Sorry, that URL gets me to a 404. http://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/ Removing the spurious 'i' is all it took. Sorry about that. His 'go back to home page' added an index.html which isn't needed and I failed to remove it all. > > Just the other day, I converted a 9 track tape from the 90s from Ft. > George Meade that involved antenna design software. It was FORTRAN and > compiled quite nicely under f77. cool! > > So not as uncommon as people think, perhaps. > > --Chuck > > > > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 30 12:04:27 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:04:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> References: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/30/2015 09:42 AM, Christian Corti wrote: [...] >> AFAIK). Those found at http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/ boot, but I >> have not the faintest idea of how to start anything in there; even a "DIR" > How about HELP or even "?" > I seem to recall they have a help menu in the program. That's how I found the DIR command. But the HELP menu isn't very helpful at that point. > Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the program won't support a > Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II. Oh, that was a typo. It actually says this: >>> B DUA0 2..1..0.. Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2 MicroVAX II 16-SEP-1985 09:00:00 uEVM>DIR START # FILE NAME BLOCK# BLKS CREATION DATE ---------------------------------------- ---> ERROR: PHYSICAL READ ERROR Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 12:17:27 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:17:27 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030170227.GA62951@night.db.net> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> <5633A048.6070809@sydex.com> <20151030170227.GA62951@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:02 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >> ... >> Just the other day, I converted a 9 track tape from the 90s from Ft. >> George Meade that involved antenna design software. It was FORTRAN and >> compiled quite nicely under f77. NEC 2? I've had a copy of NEC-2, in Fortran, for perhaps 2 decades now. I also got the manual from government archives. Works nicely. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 12:23:19 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: <01PSJ0GGE7K200ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PSJ0GGE7K200ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Nah - VCF-Paris is just a decoy to distract the few who might have heard about > the ultra secret VCF-Madrid. WHY was VCF Berlin kept a secret? Did Sellam know about it? I would not have gone to it, but it still seems surprising that I didn't even hear about it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 12:24:08 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:24:08 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > ... > What concerns me is the amount of code these days that is being written in > languages that has no formal standard at all. Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, the > list goes on ... I wonder how much of it will still be useful in ten or > fifteen years. Good question. Then again, only a few languages I can think of had a formal standard from the start: Algol 68 and Algol 68, plus probably Ada (don't know that one well enough to be definite about it). All the others were either never standardized, or standardized long after the fact. The ones you list are examples of the former, as are many others (PL/I for example?); examples of the latter include Fortran, C, APL, COBOL, Pascal, and presumably many others as well. Also, being useable 10-15 years from now requires the availability of compatible implementations, or enough information to allow them to be created. Standardization is only very loosely connected to that. For one thing, standards generally change what existed before (indeed, this is often a deliberate part of the process). ANSI C is not compatible with K&R C, though converting one to the other isn't terribly hard, and supporting both isn't either. Similarly, ANSI Fortran isn't FORTRAN II. Nor is Python 3 the same as Python 1.5. But all of these are manageable conversion problems. For that matter, there's translation. You don't need a standard for the implementation language of some algorithm; it suffices (at the cost of some labor) to have an understanding of whatever language it was written in, and the knowledge to translate that to a currently available language. paul From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 30 12:27:38 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:27:38 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... Message-ID: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email sig? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, applecorey at optonline.net writes: Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend itself to posting back. Just wanted to say hi. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Oct 30 12:36:39 2015 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:36:39 -0500 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? Message-ID: >From: "Jerome H. Fine" >Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform? > Jerome Fine >From http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/30/has_voyager_1_escaped_the_sun_yet_yes_but_also_no_say_boffins/: "250 Khz General Electric 18-bit TTL CPUs, complete with single register accumulator and bit-serial access to 2096-word plated-wire RAM" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 30 12:39:34 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:39:34 -0600 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5633AB56.2020306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: >> The list seems very quiet to-day. >> I have had only one post this morning. >> Anybody know why? > > Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? > > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: >> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... > > extinct? or just too shameful? > Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran. Porting the old software to newer hardware? Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 12:42:56 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:42:56 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> <20151030163515.GA62539@night.db.net> <5633A048.6070809@sydex.com> <20151030170227.GA62951@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5633AC20.6070105@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 10:17 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > NEC 2? > > I've had a copy of NEC-2, in Fortran, for perhaps 2 decades now. I > also got the manual from government archives. Works nicely. No, something called FERM--developed at Lincoln Labs and distributed through USG, by all appearances. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 12:45:56 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> References: <56339462.8070108@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think the demise of FORTRAN is overstated. That there is an X3 group still > advancing the language attests to that. While FORTRAN may be a 60-year old > language, Fortran is not. Which one is NASA looking for? FORTRAN/Fortran in general, or expertise with the variants from half a century ago? > As far as assembly, I don't believe that it's a dead language. When you need > simple, rugged, low-power hardware, it's still a very good way to go. The rumors of its demise have been around for a long time. 2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate "Computer Science" at UC (pronounced "UCK") Berkeley, Clancy and Harvey, declared, "Assembly language is dead! Nobody will ever program in it again.", and shifted their program to Scheme/Lisp. They also discontinued any beginning courses in C, claiming that anybody entering college for Computer Science should/would "already know C". That increased UC Berkeley student enrollment in the C classes that I taught at Merritt College (Peralta Community College District), and our Fortram classes got a lot of UC Berkeley students who had Fortran as a degree requirement in various science departments. Philippe Kahn said, about his "Turbo-Assembler", that "Assembly language is not for programming; it is for debugging". I have to admit that assembly language may no longer be a great career path, but there will always be need for some levels of hand optimization. Note: I realize that some may feel a need to differentiate between machine language programming and assembly language programming. I acknowledge the difference, but feel that in this context they can be lumped together. It is always amusing how desperate some peop[le seem to be to declare the demise of any systems that they aren't involved in. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 12:47:37 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:47:37 -0400 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: <5633AB56.2020306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> <5633AB56.2020306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:39 PM, ben wrote: > > On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: >>> The list seems very quiet to-day. >>> I have had only one post this morning. >>> Anybody know why? >> >> Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? >> >> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: >>> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... >> >> extinct? or just too shameful? >> > Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran. > Porting the old software to newer hardware? Presumably the Fortran is at the Earth end. Yes, you could port it, but you can't port it if you can't read the original. And given that you have a perfectly good Fortran implementation still available, porting it may not be all that useful. (Now if they were talking Jovial, the answer might be different -- though even there you can keep running the original, perhaps in emulation.) paul From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 30 12:48:40 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:48:40 -0700 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> Message-ID: <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: > > I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over > the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 > units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be > a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, > no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. > > > > Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is > all > opinion): > > > > 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is > in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its > original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization > including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of > the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic > chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully > functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. > > 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is > in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? > Is a Rev 2 anything special? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 12:50:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> References: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform? > I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN > and assembly language, but that was only 50 years ago. > There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job > at a time. All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output. > But it did work well for that era. In 1970, at Goddard Space Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, we used FORTRAN on a 7094 with a 360/30 for I/O. But we also used FORTRAN on several 360/9x machines, and sometimes APL on time sharing (selectric terminal) I wonder when the 7094s finally got retired. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 30 12:55:54 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 11:55:54 -0600 Subject: The list seems very quiet today In-Reply-To: References: <56334E44.7020506@btinternet.com> <5633AB56.2020306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5633AF2A.6080902@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/30/2015 11:47 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:39 PM, ben wrote: >> >> On 10/30/2015 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On 30 October 2015 at 12:02, rod wrote: >>>> The list seems very quiet to-day. >>>> I have had only one post this morning. >>>> Anybody know why? >>> >>> Is everybody off at the top-secret VCF-Paris? >>> >>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> No replies to my message about NASA wanting Fortran programmers... >>> >>> extinct? or just too shameful? >>> >> Confused ... The space craft would not be Fortran. >> Porting the old software to newer hardware? > > Presumably the Fortran is at the Earth end. Yes, you could port it, but you can't port it if you can't read the original. And given that you have a perfectly good Fortran implementation still available, porting it may not be all that useful. (Now if they were talking Jovial, the answer might be different -- though even there you can keep running the original, perhaps in emulation.) > > paul I am thinking they want to get rid of all the BIG iron left and go to a IBM Pizza box.Ben. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 13:06:19 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:06:19 -0500 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5633B19B.6020707@gmail.com> On 10/30/2015 11:21 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive > individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really > doesn't lend itself to posting back. The only thing worse than digest mode on a mailing list is having to use a web-based forum :-) > > Just wanted to say hi. G'day. Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 30 13:08:35 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:08:35 -0000 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <5633AB22.1030505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <041b01d1133d$fed3ef10$fc7bcd30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 30 October 2015 17:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? > > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea as to the actual hardware platform? > > I used an IBM 7094 II back around 1965 using both FORTRAN and assembly > > language, but that was only 50 years ago. > > There was no operating system, just a batch stream of one job at a > > time. All I/O was via a 1401 for both input and output. > > But it did work well for that era. > > In 1970, at Goddard Space Flight Center, Space Sciences Data Center, we > used FORTRAN on a 7094 with a 360/30 for I/O. But we also used FORTRAN > on several 360/9x machines, and sometimes APL on time sharing (selectric > terminal) > > I wonder when the 7094s finally got retired. Has anyone actually managed to find this job posting? I had a quick look on the main Nasa site and also on the JPL site, and couldn't find it at all. I am curious to read it. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 30 13:16:48 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? Message-ID: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > 2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate > "Computer Science" at UC .. declared, "Assembly language is dead! > Nobody will ever program in it again.", and shifted their program to > Scheme/Lisp. > .. > assembly language may no longer be a great career path, but there will > always be need for some levels of hand optimization. It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students understand how computers _actually work_, underneath. There's a semi-famous incident from a couple of decades back at MIT: they were teaching a programming course in CLU (an "object-based" language which contributed many ideas to object-oriented programming). So one assignment was to write an assembler - which required being able to print octal numbers. So quite a few of the students wrote 'octal clusters' ('cluster' is CLU jargon for the collection of routines which know-how/are-allowed to operate on members of a class), which used normal decimal read and write to do input/output - and had 'octal add' etc routines which took apart two 'octal numbers' abcdef, stored as the decimal number abcdef, into their constituent digits, added them together individually, did the carries, and then put it all back together. (I am not making this up. This really happened.) Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little more about how a computer actually worked. Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 30 13:34:03 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5633B81B.5050902@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-10-30 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin > > > 2 or 3 decades ago, the folk controlling lower division undergraduate > > "Computer Science" at UC .. declared, "Assembly language is dead! > > Nobody will ever program in it again.", and shifted their program to > > Scheme/Lisp. > > .. > > assembly language may no longer be a great career path, but there will > > always be need for some levels of hand optimization. > > It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students > understand how computers _actually work_, underneath. > > There's a semi-famous incident from a couple of decades back at MIT: they > were teaching a programming course in CLU (an "object-based" language which > contributed many ideas to object-oriented programming). So one assignment was > to write an assembler - which required being able to print octal numbers. > > So quite a few of the students wrote 'octal clusters' ('cluster' is CLU > jargon for the collection of routines which know-how/are-allowed to operate > on members of a class), which used normal decimal read and write to do > input/output - and had 'octal add' etc routines which took apart two 'octal > numbers' abcdef, stored as the decimal number abcdef, into their constituent > digits, added them together individually, did the carries, and then put it > all back together. (I am not making this up. This really happened.) > > Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a > number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little > more about how a computer actually worked. Pretty sure this same thing is repeated somewhere with every generation of programmers :-) But I'm not sure why anyone is shocked at "60 year old languages" being required. People are constantly telling us to use a FORTY year old language for crypto and systems work as if nothing had been learned since. --Toby > > Noel > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 13:35:22 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:35:22 -0400 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ... > Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a > number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little > more about how a computer actually worked. That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was writing a document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update correctly. He was tripping over the issue of negative zero. I told him the answer simply was to subtract the complement with end around borrow. He didn't believe me and ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every case. Sigh. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Oct 30 14:15:10 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:15:10 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> ... >> Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just a >> number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little >> more about how a computer actually worked. > > That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was writing a document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update correctly. He was tripping over the issue of negative zero. I told him the answer simply was to subtract the complement with end around borrow. He didn't believe me and ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every case. > > My favorite of this class of issues, was when I was working at a startup doing an embedded product with Linux as the OS. We all had Linux machines for building/testing. I was responsible for the Linux kernel at the company. I had someone come up to me and said ?the VM system is broken?my program works fine on my desktop but I keep getting page faults on the embedded platform?. The conversation was something like this: Me: So, what?s the program doing memory wise? Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into the array. Me: How big are the structures? Him: About 4K Me: How many are you allocating? Him: 100,000 Me: Rolls eyes. That?s 4GB. We don?t have 4GB on the embedded platform. You don?t even have that on your workstation. Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform. Me: We don?t have paging turned on in the embedded platform. Him: Can?t we turn it on? It makes my code so simple! Me: No! Go allocate a *reasonable* sized array (say 100) and shuffle in from the disk when the data you need isn?t there. You walk the data structure mostly sequentially anyway, so there?s no reason to have the entire file in memory. I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once). TTFN - Guy From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Oct 30 15:30:38 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:30:38 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> References: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5633D36E.2050907@snarc.net> > Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email sig? Ed# Google for "upside down ASCII text" ... there are many web sites that convert it for you .... such as textflip.org. ?b?o?d????x?? s? ??ns ???? no? ?o? ?? ????uo? ???? s???s q?? ?u?? ??? ????? ??? "?x?? ???s? u?op ?p?sdn" ?o? ??boob From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Oct 30 12:57:56 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:57:56 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> References: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> Message-ID: <615E6215-C219-448E-BDA5-B2495D61AF3F@optonline.net> I honestly don't remember. I know Woz sent me instructions on how to do it, this was a few years ago. I've just been cutting and pasting the competed signature since then, so I forgot. Maybe I can dig up the instructions over the weekend. FYI. I just got the daily digest on my other email and it apparently strips out the upside down stuff. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:27 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email > sig? Ed# > > > > > In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > applecorey at optonline.net writes: > > Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual > messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend > itself to posting back. > > Just wanted to say hi. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? From applecorey at optonline.net Fri Oct 30 13:11:50 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:11:50 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. Where are you located? It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: > > My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? > > Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. > > Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. > > Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. > > Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. > > As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. > > Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >> >> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be >> a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, >> no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >> >> >> >> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >> all >> opinion): >> >> >> >> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic >> chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully >> functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >> >> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >> >> >> >> Thanks! > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 12:40:25 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:40:25 -0400 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love Message-ID: What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? ?Steve Jobs the Movie? doesn?t mention this nor have books written about him and microcomputers in general mentioned this. Not even mine! Do the computers we love owe more to gov. than we care to admit? Granted I'm a Cdn. and 'we' here up north view it somewhat differently than Americans... Happy computing. Murray :) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Oct 30 15:38:54 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:38:54 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... Message-ID: <170571.6177fbbc.43652f5e@aol.com> it is pretty neat!!! In a message dated 10/30/2015 1:36:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, applecorey at optonline.net writes: I honestly don't remember. I know Woz sent me instructions on how to do it, this was a few years ago. I've just been cutting and pasting the competed signature since then, so I forgot. Maybe I can dig up the instructions over the weekend. FYI. I just got the daily digest on my other email and it apparently strips out the upside down stuff. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:27 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email > sig? Ed# > > > > > In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > applecorey at optonline.net writes: > > Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual > messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend > itself to posting back. > > Just wanted to say hi. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 15:40:58 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into the array. > Me: How big are the structures? > Him: About 4K > Me: How many are you allocating? > Him: 100,000 > Me: Rolls eyes. That?s 4GB. We don?t have 4GB on the embedded platform. You don?t even have that on your workstation. > Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform. > Me: We don?t have paging turned on in the embedded platform. > Him: Can?t we turn it on? It makes my code so simple! > . . . > I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once). I struggled with that for 30 years. Third semester programming students in Data Structures and Algorithms classes still insisted on trying to load the whole file into memory. Even in the simplistic example that I gave them of a business appending a record to an already sorted file and then sorting it, when they should have sorted just the appended records and then done a two file input, one file output merge, with only two records in memory at a time. I always assigned them a problem of writing a sort for a file/dataset too big to fit into memory. They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory. A couple of students wrote a letter to the college administration complaining about me and the department and our "out-dated" curriculum, insisting that "in the real world, the proper solution to a file too big for memory is to replace the computer with a bigger one." I was actually called on the carpet to answer the charge! That was trivially easy when I pointed out to the chancellor how much it would COST to equip the student homework computer labs with computers capable of holding a national telephone directory in memory. Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand. Consider Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that YOUR COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster computer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ben at bensinclair.com Fri Oct 30 15:57:14 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:57:14 -0500 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't answer that question directly... The new Steve Jobs movie, while a good, entertaining Sorkin film, is great, but by not a history of personal computing or even Apple. If you haven't read Hackers by Steven Levy, I'd recommend that as a fun starting point! On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the > microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? ?Steve Jobs the > Movie? doesn?t mention this nor have books written about him and > microcomputers in general mentioned this. Not even mine! Do the > computers we love owe more to gov. than we care to admit? Granted I'm > a Cdn. and 'we' here up north view it somewhat differently than > Americans... > > Happy computing. > > Murray :) -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 16:05:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: > What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the > microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? ?Steve Jobs the > Movie? doesn?t mention this nor have books written about him and > microcomputers in general mentioned this. Not even mine! Do the > computers we love owe more to gov. than we care to admit? Granted I'm > a Cdn. and 'we' here up north view it somewhat differently than > Americans... It is arguable how much influence Steve Jobs had in ADVANCING consumer computers, but by the time that he got involved, CREATION of microcomputers was alreaqdy a given. What did Jobs invent? besides the cult of Jobs It's like talking about gates "inventing" operating systems! BTW, is Woz getting squeezed out of the histories? Instead, we need to look at the relative involvements of academia, guvmint, military, and industry (foreign and domestic). Like the development of the internet (I do not see an "invention" nor a definable creation date), there were several major forces that helped in their own self-serving ways to bring it about. In terms of what brought about the creation of microcomputers, look particularly at where the impetus and funding came from for the 4004 and similar. The creation of the microprocessor made microcomputers inevitable. Not just "possible", "inevitable". It was no longer an "invention", merely major engineering to build it. When I left NASA in 1972, I declared, "I'll get back into computers as soon as those "tabletop computers" WITH FORTRAN, get down to my price range." I was not a great prognosticator. It was OBVIOUS. It's like Columbus and the "discovery" of America. He was NOT the first, and if he hadn't done it, it was only a matter of time before somebody else did a variant of the "discovery" that didn't get forgotten and denied (like the Vikings). It probably would NOT have taken until we had pictures from space :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 16:12:53 2015 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:12:53 -0700 Subject: IBM cluster for auction Message-ID: May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I have just started following GovDeals. https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=1624&acctID=4788 Cluster is in Ohio. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 16:14:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:14:47 -0700 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5633DDC7.5080809@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 01:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I always assigned them a problem of writing a sort for a file/dataset > too big to fit into memory. They literally refused to understand > that a dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into > memory. A couple of students wrote a letter to the college > administration complaining about me and the department and our > "out-dated" curriculum, insisting that "in the real world, the proper > solution to a file too big for memory is to replace the computer with > a bigger one." I was actually called on the carpet to answer the > charge! That was trivially easy when I pointed out to the chancellor > how much it would COST to equip the student homework computer labs > with computers capable of holding a national telephone directory in > memory. How times change. Most programmers of my era, would do it the "old" way by habit--read in bits of the dataset. It took quite a bit of relearning that mapping a file into a 48-bit address space and operating on the data directly, letting the pager do the bookkeeping could render what at first started out to be a fairly complicated job, very simple. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 16:19:21 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:19:21 -0000 Subject: IBM cluster for auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01d11358$a57f05b0$f07d1110$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton > Hoag > Sent: 30 October 2015 21:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: IBM cluster for auction > > May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I > have just started following GovDeals. > > https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=1624&acctID= > 4788 > > Cluster is in Ohio. > It?s a pretty bog standard AMD CPU based server rack. There are several on E-Bay at present. If it had been an iSeries or zSeries then it could be of interest... > Pax > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA Dave From andy.holt at tesco.net Fri Oct 30 16:21:50 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:21:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> From: "Fred Cisin" > They literally refused to understand that a > dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory. In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all their customers. This, I think, is an example of "big data" ? possibly so big that backup is impracticable. When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students at a University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory on my desktop system (well specified) ? now imagine 20 million users for 365 days - I'd be doubtful that even todays mainframes and supercomputers could do that. * When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was "we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging"). Andy From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 16:37:24 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 14:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: > > They literally refused to understand that a > > dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory. On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, ANDY HOLT wrote: > In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and > keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all > their customers. > This, I think, is an example of "big data" ? possibly so big that backup > is impracticable. > When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students > at a University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory > on my desktop system (well specified) ? now imagine 20 million users for 365 days - I'd be doubtful > that even todays mainframes and supercomputers could do that. > * When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was > "we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging"). That would have been a much better example to bring up with the Chancellor, since the Peralta Colleges administrators would LOVE to keep track of all student computer usage! He would have thought that it was a trivial requirement until walking him through the arithmetic. At one time, they had a "Chief Information Officer" who was joining [temporarily?] various Yahoo email groups for the sole purpose of access to archives to look for faculty posting "inappropriate" content (any defamation of Peralta administration!) Yes, John Wxxxxxxx, eat shit and die. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 16:43:04 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:43:04 -0000 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <009101d1135b$f5be34d0$e13a9e70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY > HOLT > Sent: 30 October 2015 21:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in > "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran > > From: "Fred Cisin" > > They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that > > would be too large to fit into memory. > > In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and keep > (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all their customers. > This, I think, is an example of "big data" ? possibly so big that backup is > impracticable. > When I did daily analysis of the urls accessed by the 2000 or so students at a > University*, that daily database was pushing what I could get into memory > on my desktop system (well specified) ? now imagine 20 million users for 365 > days - I'd be doubtful that even todays mainframes and supercomputers > could do that. > About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of the URLs accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the URL's that I had accessed. It was totally useless, mainly because every page these day as is a composite. Add to that allowing Outlook to download the content of an HTML e-mail .. .. its almost a totally pointless exercise.... > * When I questioned the legality (and morality) of doing this the answer was > "we believe it is legal" (and "stop complaining and keep digging"). > > Andy From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 17:08:19 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:08:19 -0700 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: "I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once). TTFN - Guy" Second. Lee C. On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Oct 30, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > > > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Apparently nobody had ever told them that a number in memory is... just > a > >> number. At which point it became clear that they needed to know a little > >> more about how a computer actually worked. > > > > That reminds me of an exchange I had with a younger colleague who was > writing a document describing how to do incremental TCP checksum update > correctly. He was tripping over the issue of negative zero. I told him > the answer simply was to subtract the complement with end around borrow. > He didn't believe me and ended up proving it by exhaustively testing every > case. > > > > > My favorite of this class of issues, was when I was working at a startup > doing an embedded product with Linux as the OS. We all had Linux machines > for building/testing. I was responsible for the Linux kernel at the > company. I had someone come up to me and said ?the VM system is broken?my > program works fine on my desktop but I keep getting page faults on the > embedded platform?. The conversation was something like this: > Me: So, what?s the program doing memory wise? > Him: I allocate an array of structures and I read them off of disk into > the array. > Me: How big are the structures? > Him: About 4K > Me: How many are you allocating? > Him: 100,000 > Me: Rolls eyes. That?s 4GB. We don?t have 4GB on the embedded platform. > You don?t even have that on your workstation. > Him: But it works there and not on the embedded platform. > Me: We don?t have paging turned on in the embedded platform. > Him: Can?t we turn it on? It makes my code so simple! > Me: No! Go allocate a *reasonable* sized array (say 100) and shuffle in > from the disk when the data you need isn?t there. You walk the data > structure mostly sequentially anyway, so there?s no reason to have the > entire file in memory. > > I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment (learn > that not everything can fit into memory at once). > > TTFN - Guy > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 17:13:57 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > "I still think a 3 tape sort should be a required early assignment > > (learn that not everything can fit into memory at once). On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Lee Courtney wrote: > Second. It's hard to get students to care about what you are saying when you mention tapes. You need to explain the algorithms using files. Even though CD/DVD is a sequential storage system. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 30 17:34:47 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:34:47 -0700 Subject: IBM cluster for auction In-Reply-To: <008b01d11358$a57f05b0$f07d1110$@gmail.com> References: <008b01d11358$a57f05b0$f07d1110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5633F087.3010600@jwsss.com> On 10/30/2015 2:19 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton >> Hoag >> Sent: 30 October 2015 21:13 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: IBM cluster for auction >> >> May not be old enough but this is the group I think might be interested. I >> have just started following GovDeals. >> >> https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=1624&acctID= >> 4788 >> >> Cluster is in Ohio. >> > It?s a pretty bog standard AMD CPU based server rack. There are several on E-Bay at present. If it had been an iSeries or zSeries then it could be of interest... > >> Pax >> >> -- >> Paxton Hoag >> Astoria, OR >> USA > Dave Some time travel will be required as well, since the terms require removal by 7/31/2015 But luckily we are now past the 10/21/2015 time frame and Marty and Doc have delivered the Flux Capacitor to us. Off we go. Thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 17:38:03 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:38:03 -0400 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Instead, we need to look at the relative involvements of academia, guvmint, military, and industry (foreign and domestic). Like the development of the internet (I do not see an "invention" nor a definable creation date), there were several major forces that helped in their own self-serving ways to bring it about. > > > In terms of what brought about the creation of microcomputers, look particularly at where the impetus and funding came from for the 4004 and similar. > I agree. We live in a world of simplified history. One good effect is that you can still buy/find truly historic items for study that have been ignored by the pop culture tech kitch e-zine top 10 ten list crowd scene. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 30 17:39:55 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 15:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <009101d1135b$f5be34d0$e13a9e70$@gmail.com> References: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <009101d1135b$f5be34d0$e13a9e70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that >>> would be too large to fit into memory. On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of the > URLs accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the URL's > that I had accessed. Or you could "comply" by listing only URLs that were typed in. "He typed in GOOGLE.COM, and spent hours before he typed any other URLS. No idea what he did on that site; he might have filled in fields, or clicked on things. How would you feel about installing a camera to look over his shoulder?" (let them acknowledge what they are really doing.) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 18:05:12 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 23:05:12 -0000 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: References: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <009101d1135b$f5be34d0$e13a9e70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010801d11367$6f6f9d40$4e4ed7c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 30 October 2015 22:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in > "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran > > >>> They literally refused to understand that a dataset could exist that > >>> would be too large to fit into memory. > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > > About a year ago, I was asked by my employer to give them a list of > > the URLs accessed by one member of staff. I sent them a list of the > > URL's that I had accessed. > > Or you could "comply" by listing only URLs that were typed in. I couldn't figure out how to work that out without installing a key logger on the users PC.... > "He typed in GOOGLE.COM, and spent hours before he typed any other > URLS. > No idea what he did on that site; he might have filled in fields, or clicked on > things. How would you feel about installing a camera to look over his > shoulder?" (let them acknowledge what they are really doing.) > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Oct 30 18:22:02 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 23:22:02 +0000 (WET) Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran Message-ID: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> > > Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand. Consider > Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if > their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that YOUR > COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster computer. > Seems perfectly logical to me. Microsoft blames your hardware for their bloatware running slowly. You update the hardware and it solves the problem. Then they can ratchet up the bloat level again and convince you that the reason the new version runs so slowly is because the hardware you are running it on is no longer up to it. They were right the first time, so why wouldn't they be right this time? GOTO 10. Writing efficient software to get the best out of the hardware would sure spoil that business model. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 30 18:54:23 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 19:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: <5633D36E.2050907@snarc.net> References: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> <5633D36E.2050907@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201510302354.TAA14812@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email sig$ > Google for "upside down ASCII text" ... there are many web sites that > convert it for you .... such as textflip.org. Maybe, if you're willing to assume Unicode support on the receiver's end (which on this list strikes me as even less likely than most). For example, a capture of my mail-reading window looking at your message is in ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/cctalk-msg.gif for your pointing and laug^W^W^Wamusement and edification. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 19:18:16 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 00:18:16 -0000 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 30 October 2015 23:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in > "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran > > > > > Our industry is saturated with such refusal to understand. Consider > > Microsoft's "throw hardware at the software problems" argument that if > > their software runs too slowly on your computer, then that shows that > > YOUR COMPUTER (and you) is inadequate, and you should get a faster > computer. > > > > Seems perfectly logical to me. Microsoft blames your hardware for their > bloatware running slowly. You update the hardware and it solves the > problem. Not for a long time. Windows/7 was faster than Vista and XP. Never tried 8.0 or 8.1 in anger but they generally needed the same hardware as 7. Windows/10 might use more disk space but it runs more quickly than 7. > Then they can ratchet up the bloat level again and convince you that the > reason the new version runs so slowly is because the hardware you are > running it on is no longer up to it. They were right the first time, so why > wouldn't they be right this time? GOTO 10. > It no longer works because new machines are not orders of magnitude faster. > Writing efficient software to get the best out of the hardware would sure > spoil that business model. > Why? Hardware hasn't really got much faster over the last four years. More CPU's have been added. In hardware terms anything that runs XP well will run anything later. There might be missing drivers, but in general its not a spec problem. > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Dave Wade G4UGM From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Oct 30 20:47:27 2015 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:47:27 -0300 Subject: Know any Fortran programmers who need a more interesting job? In-Reply-To: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151030181648.C59A418C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel Chiappa wrote: > It's worth teaching a bit of machine/assembler language, so that students > understand how computers _actually work_, underneath. > > [example of students who wrote octal math for CLU] Back in 1983 I needed an assembler for the Motorola 6809, so I wrote one in Lisp on a TRS-80 Model I. I know very well how things really work (I design microprocessors at the transistor level) and yet I created a hex math package in Lisp just like in your example. Sure it was orders of magnitude slower than using the language's native math and doing all the conversions in the i/o routines, but it was very elegant and was fast enough for the sizes of the programs we needed to assemble. So while I insist on knowing all the details, I also enjoy tools that don't depend on me knowing. -- Jecel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 19:50:17 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:50:17 -0400 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > > What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the > microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? Interesting question. Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated circuits came from the space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI) predate that. And the first microcomputer, the Intel 4004, was as far as I remember built to be the engine of a calculator. So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins, but were not drivers. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 30 19:52:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:52:18 -0400 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <240414292.822228.1446240110614.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <0E9020AF-9A3D-4F6E-97D3-A0FF2AAAFCB8@comcast.net> > On Oct 30, 2015, at 5:21 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > From: "Fred Cisin" >> They literally refused to understand that a >> dataset could exist that would be too large to fit into memory. > > In the UK, the Home Secretary wants to force all ISPs to store and > keep (reasonably) easily searchable logs of all URLs accessed by all > their customers. Orwell's inspiration must have come from nearby. Meanwhile, Tor to the rescue. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 30 20:12:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:12:15 -0700 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> References: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5634156F.2090405@sydex.com> On 10/30/2015 05:18 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Why? Hardware hasn't really got much faster over the last four years. More > CPU's have been added. In hardware terms anything that runs XP well will run > anything later. > There might be missing drivers, but in general its not a spec problem. I run XP on non-SSE2 hardware, but I suspect W10 demands it--certainly, many browsers do. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 21:25:35 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:25:35 -0400 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2015 8:50 PM, "Paul Koning" wrote: > > > > On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Murray McCullough < c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the > > microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? > > Interesting question. Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated circuits came from the space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI) predate that. And the first microcomputer, the Intel 4004, was as far as I remember built to be the engine of a calculator. > > So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins, but were not drivers. > > paul > > I read about the datapoint 3300, how cdc was connected to the 4004. I also read about how the 4004 was inspired by the f14 (?) fighter jet, Can anyone confirm these? From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 30 21:54:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:54:38 -0500 Subject: Emulex QD32 In-Reply-To: References: <56339917.1000605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56342D6E.8080901@pico-systems.com> On 10/30/2015 12:04 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 30 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > > >> Also, you log shows MicroVAX I, so it is possible the >> program won't support a Q-bus board on a MicroVAX-II. > > Oh, that was a typo. It actually says this: >>>> B DUA0 > > 2..1..0.. > > Emulex VAX Monitor V1.2 MicroVAX II 16-SEP-1985 09:00:00 > OK, that makes much more sense with the 1985 date. Can't imagine anybody using a MicroVAX I for more than a couple months after the UV-II came out. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 30 21:57:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:57:33 -0500 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> References: <16b656.4074183.4365028a@aol.com> Message-ID: <56342E1D.1010001@pico-systems.com> On 10/30/2015 12:27 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Welcome Corey! how did you get the upside down font in the email > sig? Ed# > > > > > In a message dated 10/30/2015 9:59:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > applecorey at optonline.net writes: > > Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual > messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend > itself to posting back. > > Just wanted to say hi. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > That last line prints out in show message source like this : u=C7=9D=C9=A5o=C9=94 =CA=8E=C7=9D=C9=B9o=C9=94 Jon From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 31 01:32:05 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 06:32:05 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts Message-ID: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems that never had one and could have done with one? Which computer would you nominate? I'm not about to do anything about it. But the answers should be interesting Rod Smallwood From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 03:35:58 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:35:58 +0100 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: rod Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 7:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts Hi Guys Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems that never had one and could have done with one? Which computer would you nominate? I'm not about to do anything about it. But the answers should be interesting Rod Smallwood ========= FWIW, I know a guy that upgraded a system with three 11/45 to two 11/84. The application (a real DC-10 flight simulator) used the switch panel of the 11/45, so he implemented a switch register and real switches for the 11/84. Extracting address and data LEDs seems easy. Some other signals might be a bit more work, because the 53, 73, 8[3|4] and 9[3|4] have almost everything inside the J11. Ditto for the 11/2[3|4]. The 11/[0|3]4 and 11/60 have the calculator style panel. Some extra LEDs there could also be "interesting". Control signals (R/W, NPR, NPG, BRx to name a few) would be nice to have visible all the time. - Henk From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 03:45:34 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:45:34 +1300 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 7:32 PM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. > I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. > What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems > that never had one and could have done with one? > Which computer would you nominate? > > I'm not about to do anything about it. > But the answers should be interesting Don't know if you're aware, but this may be interesting and relevant: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm A real panel (albeit very basic) for an emulated machine. A real panel for Hercules would be a very interesting prospect. You could build a panel for a machine which never even existed, which only exists in emulated form: the System/380: http://mvs380.sourceforge.net If anyone does build one, and it's any good, I'll buy seven! Mike From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 06:00:37 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:00:37 -0000 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <5634156F.2090405@sydex.com> References: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> <5634156F.2090405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000e01d113cb$610f0c40$232d24c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 31 October 2015 01:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in > "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran > > On 10/30/2015 05:18 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > Why? Hardware hasn't really got much faster over the last four years. > > More CPU's have been added. In hardware terms anything that runs XP > > well will run anything later. > > There might be missing drivers, but in general its not a spec problem. > > I run XP on non-SSE2 hardware, but I suspect W10 demands it--certainly, > many browsers do. Possibly, but if it does I would expect Windows/7, 8 and 8.1 to also need it. On looking on YOUTUBE someone claims to have installed one of the Windows/10 beta's on a P3. Wikipedia tells me the P4 was the first chip with SSE2 so perhaps Windows/10 will run without SSE2. SSE2 isn't exactly "leading edge" technology. It dates back to P4 in 2001 so is actually older than the XP. Also whilst XP would run on a small machine it was dire. I once was sent to look at a 256Mhz PII running XP to see if I could speed it up. Must have have been 2008 or 9 I think. Whilst fiddling I accidentally swapped the mouse and keyboard connections only to find it wouldn't boot set up like that. I left it that way and no one else figured out what was wrong so the user got their PC upgraded... > > --Chuck Dave From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat Oct 31 06:15:18 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:15:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, spotted this video recently on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQzDSOXHd70 It's a Xerox Digital Systems mainframe! Wow, I didn't know that such installations were still running as of 1997! The computer room is quite untidy. Andybody has an idea, where with was filmed? There's also a Data General minicomputer and Honeywell mainframe equipment. Can anybody identify the Honeywell stuff? It's Level 6000 style, but it's strange to me that there seems to be just this one cabinet along the rest of the XDS equipment. Maybe a Datanet option? There are *very* nice close views on running CDC disk drives using the 100/200MB disk packs. I was looking for a long time for a video actually showing how the big head actuator of these drives moves when performing data operations! And there are nice reel tape drives which look to me like rebadged IBM drives (not sure, though). Enjoy watching it! I did! Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From db at db.net Sat Oct 31 07:45:40 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 08:45:40 -0400 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20151031124540.GA72261@night.db.net> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:15:18AM +0000, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello list, > > spotted this video recently on youtube: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQzDSOXHd70 > > It's a Xerox Digital Systems mainframe! Wow, I didn't know that such installations were still running as of 1997! > > The computer room is quite untidy. Andybody has an idea, where with was filmed? > I don't know, but this link might help. http://w3.uwyo.edu/~jimkirk/sigma_era.html We had a Sigma 9 at Carleton U here in Ottawa for years and also had either a Sigma 7 or another Sigma 9 (My memory is fading on this) DREO/CRC here in Ottawa at Shirleys bay. (Well just outside of Ottawa 40 years ago) http://www.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/en/index.page DREO http://www.crc.gc.ca/eic/site/069.nsf/Intro I remember hacking the computed goto in the Fortran so it would execute my own entered assembler. That was fun. ;) Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 08:57:16 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Source for 360k drives? Message-ID: I need to pickup a few more 360k drives. Does anyone know of a source besides eBay - or, have a few they can part with? At this point, form-factor is not critical. I could actually use both full-height and half-height units. -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 31 01:36:57 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 23:36:57 -0700 Subject: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Oct-29, at 10:22 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/28/2015 11:48 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Very interesting to hear of another scheme, but it's not clear whether it applies to the Gemini auction memory. The BiAX scheme shows cores with the holes (apertures as they're called in the business) perpendicular to each other. In contrast, the Gemini auction cores have two apertures with the same orientation (a figure 8). > Yes, but I'm pretty sure the concepts are related. The remanent flux in the non-volatile side of the core affects the flux hysteresis in the volatile side, so when you flip the flux polarity on the volatile side, you can see some effect caused by the non-volatile side. At a general level, as you suggest, they could be said to be related, however what description is out there does seem to indicate them being distinct in the detail. Refs on this page: http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Gemini.html refers to the Gemini memory as being of the MARS type "Multi-Aperture Readout Sensing". MARS is described here if one wishes to delve into the magnetics: http://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1961/5058/00/50580443.pdf A cursory description of BiAX http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Biax does describe different functional principles as suggested in one sentence here: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1961P%26SS....7..184W Photos of the Gemini auction memory: http://historical.ha.com/itm/explorers/gemini-3-flown-random-access-non-destructive-readout-4096-bit-memory-plane-from-the-gemini-spacecraft-computer/a/6146-52008.s See the third photo for detail. . . and a photo of BiAX cores: http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/memory-storage/8/253/984 While researching this I ran across a couple of other patents for multi-aperture techniques. A fair effort seems to have been put into developing a non-desctructive readout for core memory, to little effect in the marketplace. Looking at the photos one can see why, it looks like the methods doubled or better the complexity of construction, so the 'standard' core memory techniques remained the most cost-effective. Amusingly, there was also a magnetic core device called a "transfluxor". Take that, flux capacitor. I like this one however, another technique for NDRO, using standard core construction, from the 50s: http://www-isl.stanford.edu/~widrow/papers/j1954aradio.pdf The magnetised core acts as a non-linear mixing element for two RF signals sent down the matrix wires. The magnetic polarisation of the selected core affects the mixing in such a manner that the phase of the difference/beat frequency can be observed to determine the polarisation and hence the stored-bit contents. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 31 01:40:48 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 23:40:48 -0700 Subject: Honeywell Alert / Re: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <716D7875-1CEA-46A7-8A56-050F8951651B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-29, at 10:22 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> - Another topic: what is a Honeywell Alert machine? Searches are just bringing up some current-day "Honeywell Instant Alert" messaging system. > It was a 24-bit DTL machine designed for the X-15 project, and then used in a number of other projects. It is about 25 Lbs (without memory), draws 25 A at 5 V, and runs off a 3 MHz clock. It is constructed of 6 multilayer PC boards with ceramic flat packs on both sides. The boards are attached to a motherboard with flexible PCB, so there are no connectors inside the machine. They chose this for reliability, it makes it REALLY hard to work on. There are cold plates between the boards that conduct heat down to the baseplate. The instruction set was apparently modeled after some Honeywell business machine of the time. It has no floating point hardware, but DOES have hardware multiply and divide. > > I have gotten it to run, sort of. Since I have no memory for it, I can jam op codes into the data in plug and observe the speed at which the memory address ripples. Very neat, too bad the memory is gone. Is building a new memory with modern stuff a consideration (enough documentation .. )? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 30 22:31:05 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:31:05 -0700 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6104A95E-270C-4228-B5D1-39CE72B3430E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Oct-30, at 7:25 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Oct 30, 2015 8:50 PM, "Paul Koning" wrote: >> >>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Murray McCullough < > c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> What is the role played by the U.S. gov. in helping to create the >>> microcomputer? What money & expertise did it provide? >> >> Interesting question. Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated > circuits came from the space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI) > predate that. And the first microcomputer, the Intel 4004, was as far as I > remember built to be the engine of a calculator. >> >> So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins, > but were not drivers. >> >> paul > > I read about the datapoint 3300, how cdc was connected to the 4004. I also > read about how the 4004 was inspired by the f14 (?) fighter jet, Can anyone > confirm these? Off the top of my head, without going back to check: - ca. 1970: The well-known story of the 4004 is that Busicom, a Japanese calculator manufacturer, asked Intel to manufacture a set of ASIC LSI chips, of Busicom's design, for a new calculator. The task/contract was handed to Intel's Ted Hoff, who looked at the multiple chip designs and conceived instead of a software (firmware) solution running in a 'computer' processor, rather than doing chip layouts and masks and production for a whole bunch of chips dedicated to only one application. Hoff's concept would become MCS-4 family of chips of which the 4004 is the processor. If I have it right, because the MCS-4 family was developed under the contract to Busicom, Intel had to do some business wrangling to get the rights back to their MCS-4 design to sell it as a general-purpose processor independently of Busicom. - ca. early-70s: The 8008 was conceived for use in a Datapoint computer terminal design. Read the story in the past, don't recall the details in as much depth. - ca. late-60s: I don't know about the 4004 being inspired by the F14, perhaps you're thinking of the following: there was a competing claim against the 4004 for title of "first microprocessor" by (the designers of) a processor for fly-by-wire(?) of a fighter jet. It was implemented in LSI, but as I recall, it was constituted from several chips and the delineation of functionality across the chips left the claim of being a single-chip processor, and hence first microprocessor, rather tenuous. -- The 4004 may win the claim of being first (microprocessor), but really it was just an idea whose time had come. The microprocessor was inevitable as continually increasing integration levels reached the point of it being feasible. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 31 12:03:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 10:03:15 -0700 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <000e01d113cb$610f0c40$232d24c0$@gmail.com> References: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> <5634156F.2090405@sydex.com> <000e01d113cb$610f0c40$232d24c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5634F453.8010402@sydex.com> On 10/31/2015 04:00 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > SSE2 isn't exactly "leading edge" technology. It dates back to P4 in 2001 so > is actually older than the XP. > Also whilst XP would run on a small machine it was dire. > I once was sent to look at a 256Mhz PII running XP to see if I could speed > it up. Must have have been 2008 or 9 I think. > Whilst fiddling I accidentally swapped the mouse and keyboard connections > only to find it wouldn't boot set up like that. > I left it that way and no one else figured out what was wrong so the user > got their PC upgraded... Well, XP runs just fine on my dual P3 (1GHz) server box. I know that Whistler was being tested and had many beta releases before the P4. The P3 certainly wasn't dead in 2001--the Tuallies were just being released then. I started testing Whistler and developing for it using a P1, then a K6 machine. While not as snappy as 2K, it was and is certainly usable. The be-all and end-all of any PC OS isn't necessarily running a bloated browser. Let's also not forget that XPe was deployed on all sorts of non-SSE2 hardware, from thin clients to POS system. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 31 12:08:28 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:08:28 -0500 Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love In-Reply-To: <6104A95E-270C-4228-B5D1-39CE72B3430E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <6104A95E-270C-4228-B5D1-39CE72B3430E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5634F58C.1070702@pico-systems.com> > On 2015-Oct-30, at 7:25 PM, william degnan wrote: >> So chances are that various government programs helped at the margins, >> but were not drivers. (Think I got that attribution right...) Well, one BIG thing that moved LSI forward was the VHSIC project and others at DARPA. They funded a lot of work on computer programs to synthesize digital logic (VHDL), analyze chip performance (SPICE) and also MOSIS, which allowed people to experiment with designs and share the cost of masks and wafer fab. SPICE has been there from the very beginning, VHDL and MOSIS came later, after digital ICs were already in production, but certainly were a huge help as chips became more complicated. There are probably other projects in this vein. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 31 12:28:34 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:28:34 -0500 Subject: Honeywell Alert / Re: Up for Auction: Memory from the First Computer in Space In-Reply-To: <716D7875-1CEA-46A7-8A56-050F8951651B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <884328266.19214935.1446051484880.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> <124D141A-2CE5-45A8-B77A-D0CD40B82073@comcast.net> <563177D6.7040308@pico-systems.com> <93B5BEFE-0A36-4B2F-B2D6-76DDDDDD7637@cs.ubc.ca> <563255C9.2070309@pico-systems.com> <716D7875-1CEA-46A7-8A56-050F8951651B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5634FA42.40801@pico-systems.com> On 10/31/2015 01:40 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Very neat, too bad the memory is gone. Is building a new > memory with modern stuff a consideration (enough > documentation .. )? it is not gone. I have a VERY strong belief that the EMM memory box was made for the Honeywell Alert, but I have no docs on it, and one of the 4 memory blocks was disassembled, probably to attempt a repair on the electronics. Without pinout or even knowing what voltages were used, pretty hard to do much with it. Yes, I could build an SRAM board that would hook to it, and a console interface, but I really don't see the point. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 12:36:42 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:36:42 -0000 Subject: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran In-Reply-To: <5634F453.8010402@sydex.com> References: <01PSJFLIU0L600ACV4@beyondthepale.ie> <016b01d11371$a4a31b40$ede951c0$@gmail.com> <5634156F.2090405@sydex.com> <000e01d113cb$610f0c40$232d24c0$@gmail.com> <5634F453.8010402@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003d01d11402$b5785f70$20691e50$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 31 October 2015 17:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: "Demystification" is just as important as "Abstraction" in > "Computer Science" (Was: Know any Fortran > > On 10/31/2015 04:00 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > SSE2 isn't exactly "leading edge" technology. It dates back to P4 in > > 2001 so is actually older than the XP. > > Also whilst XP would run on a small machine it was dire. > > I once was sent to look at a 256Mhz PII running XP to see if I could > > speed it up. Must have have been 2008 or 9 I think. > > Whilst fiddling I accidentally swapped the mouse and keyboard > > connections only to find it wouldn't boot set up like that. > > I left it that way and no one else figured out what was wrong so the > > user got their PC upgraded... > > Well, XP runs just fine on my dual P3 (1GHz) server box. I know that Whistler > was being tested and had many beta releases before the P4. The > P3 certainly wasn't dead in 2001--the Tuallies were just being released then. I should hope so too. I would expect Windows/7 to run just fine as well, provided there are drivers. > > I started testing Whistler and developing for it using a P1, then a K6 machine. > While not as snappy as 2K, it was and is certainly usable. > I had a K6-350 for ages. I can't remember what I ran on it W2K I think. I think at about that time in work I had an Armada 700 with perhaps a 450Mhz CPU. That ran 2k fine but XP was not nice and not usable. > The be-all and end-all of any PC OS isn't necessarily running a bloated > browser. > When I last looked at an XP machine it was more the AntiVirus that killed memory. Also Java was pretty much a resource hog. But I have an eMachine with an Atom CPU It really crawls with XP. Seems much better now I have put 7 on it. Debating if I should try 10... > Let's also not forget that XPe was deployed on all sorts of non-SSE2 > hardware, from thin clients to POS system. That would mostly be the embedded version. There is a windows/7 8 & 8.1 embedded as well. I believe that the Win/7 embedded is lighter than the XP embedded. XP on was a total pain as some of the HP clients were susceptible to a nasty that sneaked in via a downlevel JAVA The would re-boot up clean but when running if they got infected they would attack other machines on the network. > > --Chuck Dave From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 12:37:04 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 10:37:04 -0700 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pierre et al, I posted the video you linked to. The machines on the video belonged to George Plue, who ran a medical billing service bureau in Flagstaff AZ. They are now located at the Living Computer Museum (LCM) in Seattle. George originally ran the Computer Center at Anderson University in Berrien Springs MI, and the center ran several generations of SDS the XDS Sigma mainframes over the years. When Xerox decided to get out of the mainframe computing business in August 1975 the market for Sigmas essentially collapsed despite Honeywell agreeing to buy the carcass of the business. George and a partner got into the used Sigma HW business and he maintained a stock of HW, SW and documentation at his home in MI. More info here: http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/profess/SDSigma7.htm I'm unclear on when he acquired his second home in Flagstaff, but he had a typical ranch style house in Flagstaff. The big difference being that he had installed a significantly larger electrical feed with three-phase power than one would find in a residence, and the downstairs family and bedrooms were used as the machine room in the video. I visited George in the early 2000's (I think) and at that time he had a fully configured Sigma-9 and Sigma-8 mainframes, along with several tape drives, and string of DASD. Yes, the machine room was strewn with printouts, docs, partially finished projects, tapes, etc. But all the machines worked and it was glorious. ;-) Unfortunately George passed away a few years ago. All the HW and SW that was in running condition was rescued by the LCM in Seattle. I know LCM has had someone with Sigma experience working on and off on the Sigma to get it running again. Not sure of the current status. But, that would be an awesome time-sharing system alongside the DEC-20 they have. There was also a group in AZ working on restoring a Sigma mainframe, maybe some of Georges collection. He also had a complete Sigma-7 and a boatload of Honeywell peripherals in his garage in Flagstaff. The AZ group was very energetic, but I have not heard any updates in several years. Having worked on CHM's first restoration, the IBM 1620, from start to finish I know its a huge undertaking to get even a relatively straightforward machine up and running. Back in the late 1990s I deinstalled a Sigma-5 at CMU that CHM acquired. Video here: https://youtu.be/Sv3TnaaCVoc I also learned FORTRAN on a Sigma-7 in 1973 at UT-Arlington. Cool machine. Would *love* to hack on one again. :-) Cheers, Lee Courtney On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:15 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello list, > > spotted this video recently on youtube: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQzDSOXHd70 > > It's a Xerox Digital Systems mainframe! Wow, I didn't know that such > installations were still running as of 1997! > > The computer room is quite untidy. Andybody has an idea, where with was > filmed? > > > There's also a Data General minicomputer and Honeywell mainframe equipment. > Can anybody identify the Honeywell stuff? It's Level 6000 style, but > it's strange to me that there seems to be just this one cabinet along the > rest of the XDS equipment. Maybe a Datanet option? > > > There are *very* nice close views on running CDC disk drives using the > 100/200MB disk packs. > I was looking for a long time for a video actually showing how the big > head actuator > > of these drives moves when performing data operations! > > And there are nice reel tape drives which look to me like rebadged IBM > drives (not sure, though). > > Enjoy watching it! I did! > > > Kind regards, > Pierre > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: > http://www.digitalheritage.de > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 12:41:15 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 10:41:15 -0700 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Pierre, Sorry forgot to address this in my original email... "There's also a Data General minicomputer and Honeywell mainframe equipment. Can anybody identify the Honeywell stuff? It's Level 6000 style, but it's strange to me that there seems to be just this one cabinet along the rest of the XDS equipment. Maybe a Datanet option?" When Honeywell bought the Sigma mainframe business from Xerox in 1975 it agreed to continue support and provide upgrades. One of these was interfacing various peripherals and upgraded memory. The Honeywell box George had connected to the Sigma-9 was a solid state memory. It was not a stand-along Honeywell computer, just semiconductor memory rather than core memory that was originally used on the Sigma-9 Yes, he did have a DG minicomputer in the room also. I never saw it run. Lee C. On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:15 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hello list, > > spotted this video recently on youtube: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQzDSOXHd70 > > It's a Xerox Digital Systems mainframe! Wow, I didn't know that such > installations were still running as of 1997! > > The computer room is quite untidy. Andybody has an idea, where with was > filmed? > > > There's also a Data General minicomputer and Honeywell mainframe equipment. > Can anybody identify the Honeywell stuff? It's Level 6000 style, but > it's strange to me that there seems to be just this one cabinet along the > rest of the XDS equipment. Maybe a Datanet option? > > > There are *very* nice close views on running CDC disk drives using the > 100/200MB disk packs. > I was looking for a long time for a video actually showing how the big > head actuator > > of these drives moves when performing data operations! > > And there are nice reel tape drives which look to me like rebadged IBM > drives (not sure, though). > > Enjoy watching it! I did! > > > Kind regards, > Pierre > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: > http://www.digitalheritage.de > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 31 12:43:58 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:43:58 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5634FDDE.6070102@btinternet.com> An IBM 370 front panel? At the risk of instant cardiac arrest I'll go and find a picture of one PanelMan On 31/10/15 08:45, Mike Ross wrote: > On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 7:32 PM, rod wrote: >> Hi Guys >> Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. >> I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. >> What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems >> that never had one and could have done with one? >> Which computer would you nominate? >> >> I'm not about to do anything about it. >> But the answers should be interesting > Don't know if you're aware, but this may be interesting and relevant: > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm > > A real panel (albeit very basic) for an emulated machine. > > A real panel for Hercules would be a very interesting prospect. You > could build a panel for a machine which never even existed, which only > exists in emulated form: the System/380: > > http://mvs380.sourceforge.net > > If anyone does build one, and it's any good, I'll buy seven! > > Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 12:58:02 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 10:58:02 -0700 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: References: <1502445316.163786.1446290118571.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > > Unfortunately George passed away a few years ago. All the HW and SW that > was in running condition was rescued by the LCM in Seattle. I know LCM has > had someone with Sigma experience working on and off on the Sigma to get it > running again. Not sure of the current status. But, that would be an > awesome time-sharing system alongside the DEC-20 they have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDS_Sigma_series "In 2011 the Living Computer Museum in Seattle, Washington acquired a Sigma 9 from a service bureau (Applied Esoterics/George Plue Estate) and has made it operational.[2] That Sigma 9 CPU was at the University of Southern Mississippi until Nov. 1985 when Andrews University purchased it and took it to Michigan. In Feb. 1990 Andrews University via Keith Calkins sold and delivered it to Applied Esoterics in Flagstaff. Keith Calkins made the Sigma 9 functional for the museum in 2012/13 and brought up the CP-V operating system in Dec. 2014." One of these days I need to get over to LCM and check out all of the cool stuff they have there. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 31 13:32:24 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:32:24 -0700 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56350938.9000705@bitsavers.org> On 10/30/15 11:32 PM, rod wrote: > What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems > that never had one and could have done with one? > Which computer would you nominate? > Motorola 68030 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 31 13:37:38 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love Message-ID: <20151031183738.6A1F818C11F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Supposedly some of the impetus for integrated circuits came from the > space program -- but I think the first ones (at TI) predate that. "Digital Apollo" (pg. 125) says that Fairchild was first to ship commercially, in 1961 ("Journey to the Moon" puts it in the fall, pg. 19), followed by TI and Signetics. In '62, the Instrumentation Labs produced a prototype AGC using Fairchild ICs (in the To-47 round can - they went to the flat packs in a later version); in November, NASA OK'd their use in the flight computers (replacing discrete transistors). (The Minuteman was also using ICs, but 20 different custom designs - the AGC used all standard NOR gate packages.) In '63, Apollo was using 60% of the ICs produced in the US (pg. 127), both for flight computers, and ground test equipment. "Journey" (pg. 19) says they were the largest consumers of ICs from '61 to '65. Their insistance on quality really helped raise the companies' game (pg. 133); not sure if this also increased yield (and thus lowered costs). Block I (which flew on Apollo's AS-201, 4 and 6; 5, and 7 on used Block II - finally found it, pg. 143) used the round metal cans, Block II used the flat packs; NASA had approved the switch to flat packs for the Block II in December, '63. Both TI and Fairchild had stopped producing the chips Apollo needed before the program ended (they had become obsolete); luckily for Apollo, Philco kept their production line open. "Journey" has a large section on the government's influence on early chip production, see pp. 19-23. Noel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 13:40:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:40:50 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > Hi Guys > Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. > I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. > What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems > that never had one and could have done with one? > Which computer would you nominate? The obvious ones for me would be those DEC machines that never had a real panel -- things like the 11/34 which has a keypad (toggle switches and LEDs are much nicer!) and those with 'Console ODT' and a serial terminal. I would like a real pront panel on my 11/44 and VAX11/730 machines. And the PERQ. At least front panel access to the microcode, and prefereably to the main program memory as well. > I'm not about to do anything about it. > But the answers should be interesting I don't blame you!. In most cases you can't just add a frontpanel on later, especially if you want access to internal CPU registers, etc. To add a frontpanel you would probably have to redesign bits of the CPU. Good luck in adding a panel to the PERQ main memory which does not cause problems with RasterOps... -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 31 13:45:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gov. & the machine(s) we love Message-ID: <20151031184555.AFF3318C11F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > - ca. 1970: The well-known story of the 4004 is that Busicom .. asked > Intel to manufacture a set of ASIC LSI chips, of Busicom's design, for > a new calculator. .. Hoff, who looked at the multiple chip designs and > conceived instead of a software (firmware) solution running in a > 'computer' processor .. If I have it right, because the MCS-4 family > was developed under the contract to Busicom, Intel had to do some > business wrangling to get the rights back to their MCS-4 design to sell > it as a general-purpose processor independently of Busicom. According to "The Man Behind the Microchip" (by Berlin, the Noyce bio - can highly recommend), Intel had agreed to a price to produce the ASIC's, and Hoff, who was only supposed to be an advisor to the Japanese engineers designing the ASIC's (they arrived at Intel at the end of June, '69), decided they couldn't meet that price point, and dreamed up the uP. Busicom wasn't impressed, but Noyce told him to go ahead as a backup. Later, Busicom execs over-ruled their engineers and went with Intel's approach. When they started to go into production, there was a lot of competition in the calculator business, and Busicom wanted to cut the price from Intel; Intel agreed (in September '71), if they were given the rights to sell it for non-calculator applications. Noel From andy.holt at tesco.net Sat Oct 31 13:51:18 2015 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:51:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <20151031124540.GA72261@night.db.net> Message-ID: <188493718.826810.1446317478247.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> > I remember hacking the computed goto in the Fortran so it would > execute my own entered assembler. That was fun. ;) Interesting - it was a more normal hack to abuse the assigned goto - in most implementations* the variable contents were just a genuine memory address and you could drop code into a common block thus Bob's yer uncle. * On the ICL1900 all assignable labels got small integers which were used as an index lookup in an assigned goto thus that trick would not work. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 31 13:58:29 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:58:29 -0700 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56350F55.6040505@bitsavers.org> On 10/30/15 11:32 PM, rod wrote: > Which computer would you nominate? > here is the weirdest DEC panel I have ever come across http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/mysteryPanel_Nov74.jpg that I spotted in a lot of DEC panels that were on display at CHM in 2001 It is labeled "Special Order PDP/15 Order 11/20/74 s/s" but when Bob Supnik and I talked about it, we concluded it was for a Xerox Signa architecture machine in PDP 11/20 colors (magenta and wild rose) From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 15:11:29 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:11:29 -0700 Subject: Front panels Message-ID: The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) emulator. http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ (Now it's a pretty big panel, so I'm thinking 1/4 scale.) I'm mostly interested in the lights; having functional switches would be nice, but not critical. (My background: good grasp of basic digital electronics; did some wirewrap boards back in the early eighties. Poor soldering skills, no workshop. Mad software skillz.) I would like to build it reasonably cheaply. So I would start with a simple SBC; Beaglebone or the like, that can function as a USB device. I can write the S/W to push a bunch of bits down to it. What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much reached my design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the technology to run that many LEDs. TIA, -- Charles From applecorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 31 06:07:59 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 07:07:59 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> Message-ID: Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. > > Where are you located? > > It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. > > So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >> >> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >> >> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >> >> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >> >> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >> >> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >> >> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >> >> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to be >>> a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. Although, >>> no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>> all >>> opinion): >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer Basic >>> chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is fully >>> functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>> >>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sat Oct 31 10:06:52 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:06:52 +0100 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5634D90C.3020209@t-online.de> Hmmm, There is one example: PDP11GUI has a virtual 11/70 panel in it, which can be used to operate all supported PDP-11's, including QBUS machines and SimH. As I programmed it I believed this was a "must-have", but honestly, it's more kind of a "Pimp my Eleven" joke. Personal credo now: better invest your lifetime into restauration of original machines. kind regards, Joerg Am 31.10.2015 um 07:32 schrieb rod: > Hi Guys > Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. > I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. > What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems > that never had one and could have done with one? > Which computer would you nominate? > > I'm not about to do anything about it. > But the answers should be interesting > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sat Oct 31 10:22:20 2015 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 15:22:20 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5634D90C.3020209@t-online.de> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <5634D90C.3020209@t-online.de> Message-ID: I recall a minimalist front panel board for the PC jr of all things http://www.brutman.com/PCjr/pcjr_legacy.html I'd quite like to see a fully fledged panel for Q-BUS based PDP-11s, or even a VAX. On 31 October 2015 at 15:06, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hmmm, > > There is one example: PDP11GUI has a virtual 11/70 panel in it, which can > be used to operate all supported PDP-11's, including QBUS machines and SimH. > As I programmed it I believed this was a "must-have", but honestly, it's > more kind of a "Pimp my Eleven" joke. > > Personal credo now: better invest your lifetime into restauration of > original machines. > > kind regards, > Joerg > > > > > > Am 31.10.2015 um 07:32 schrieb rod: > >> Hi Guys >> Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. >> I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. >> What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems >> that never had one and could have done with one? >> Which computer would you nominate? >> >> I'm not about to do anything about it. >> But the answers should be interesting >> >> >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> >> >> From jpeterson at chinalake.com Sat Oct 31 11:49:12 2015 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:49:12 -0400 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?free:_Trifold_folder_=22DIGITAL_WindowsNT=22_floppies/CDs_&_?= =?us-ascii?Q?DEC_ServerWORKS_CDs?= Message-ID: <00e001d113fc$1204dd10$360e9730$@chinalake.com> Been collecting dust, free for the cost of shipping. *** Item 1: Trifold folder "DIGITAL WindowsNT" Seems like an incomplete or mixed install set. Photos upon request. 3.5 diskettes: - Microsoft WindowsNT x86 V3.51 Boot Disks 1, 2, 3 - Windows NT 3.51/4.0 configuration Guide for DIGITAL Alpha systems (1997) - ECU Disk V1.8 DEC Alpha for OpenVMS and Digital Unix - Alpha Systems H/W RX23, Alpha XL 300/366 Family, Alpha Station 255, Alpha Server 100 5/xx, 1000A, 2100A, 4100 HW support disk for windows 3.51 - MS Windows NT 3.51 Release Notes for digital Alpha System CDs: - Digital Internet Roadmap for Windows NT CD V2 - CD: Digital Windows NT 3.51 Alpha Generation X86 P/N: AG-PYZVD-BH (assuming it is not alpha ver of NT) *** Item 2: In a ServerWORKS labeled envelope, with the usual upgrade kit readme first pages. Digital ServerWORKS *Manager* CDs V3.3 Apt '98 P/N: AG-QURLH-BH and V3.2 P/N: AG-QURLG-BH These were clearly upgrade kits, but the manifest indicates full versions on CD as usual. No lic key -jim/eastern ma/us From db at db.net Sat Oct 31 16:05:26 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:05:26 -0400 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <188493718.826810.1446317478247.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <20151031124540.GA72261@night.db.net> <188493718.826810.1446317478247.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <20151031210526.GB75185@night.db.net> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 06:51:18PM +0000, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > I remember hacking the computed goto in the Fortran so it would > > execute my own entered assembler. That was fun. ;) > > Interesting - it was a more normal hack to abuse the assigned goto - > in most implementations* the variable contents were just a genuine memory address > and you could drop code into a common block thus Bob's yer uncle. oops. Sorry yes, this is exactly what I did. Dropped my own address into and executed code I stuffed in at run time into a data variable. That needed a compile flag to link the data as executable. (I think) > > * On the ICL1900 all assignable labels got small integers which were used as an > index lookup in an assigned goto thus that trick would not work. > Ah pity! -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 31 16:08:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:08:32 -0700 Subject: youtube video of a runnning XDS Sigma mainframe with lots of nice peripherals In-Reply-To: <188493718.826810.1446317478247.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <188493718.826810.1446317478247.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <56352DD0.7080306@sydex.com> On 10/31/2015 11:51 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> I remember hacking the computed goto in the Fortran so it would >> execute my own entered assembler. That was fun. ;) > > Interesting - it was a more normal hack to abuse the assigned goto - > in most implementations* the variable contents were just a genuine > memory address and you could drop code into a common block thus Bob's > yer uncle. Absolutely. The ASSIGNed GOTO was subject to much abuse--in CDC's FORTRAN compiler (FTN and RUN) the COMMON and EQUIVALENCE sanity checking routine was a very large set of ASSIGNed GOTOs to implement a state machine...with absolutely no commenting at all. It was one of those "don't fool with this thing as you'll probably end up breaking it" routines. I've seen others over the years--they do what they're supposed to do, with incredibly complex uncommented code. It's probably a good think that X3 eventually dropped ASSIGNed GOTOs from the language. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 31 16:15:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:15:38 -0500 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56352F7A.1080709@pico-systems.com> On 10/31/2015 03:11 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. > > I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much reached my > design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the > technology to run that many LEDs. > it really isn't that complicated. The simplest might be a byte shift register, ie. a bunch of octal D-FFs like the 74HC374. Given a byte-wide group of GPIOs on the Beagle Bone, you could send out 63 8-bit words with one additional GPIO to act as a clock for the FFs. The LEDs could be driven directly from the FF outputs with a resistor. With the current generation of high-efficiency LEDs 10 mA would be plenty of current, and so the FF outputs would still be close enough the specs to drive the next stage. One downside of this scheme is if the serial transmission was slow, you'd see a blink each time the Bone sent a new light pattern. If you want to get more complicated, you could have one HC374 for the shift register and one HC374 as the latch. You'd shift all 63 bytes through the byte-shift register, pulsing the byte clock 63 times, and then pulse the latch clock once to latch all the 5xx bits of light info into the latch register, which would allow the LEDs to be updated without any flash as the shift reg is being shifted. Now, another way to do this is with multiplexing. You could maybe have 8 64-bit words that loaded to a small RAM, and the RAM is scanned to load data to banks of 64 LEDs. This reduces the number of drivers to, say, 64 cathode drivers and 8 high-current anode drivers, but complicates the rest of the thing a fair bit. It will also cause the whole panel of LEDs to flicker at the multiplexing rate, which could be annoying when you flick your eyes across the panel. Jon From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 31 16:23:34 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:23:34 +0000 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56353156.5080104@btinternet.com> Hello Charles Well I have had a look and there lots to see. The switches I think are Lemo. The lights are most likely not LEDs. Probably lamps. Scaling it down is not possible. The lamps and switches are already tiny. The challenging part is the drum type rotating title changers I'm a DEC guy and have no knowledge of Honeywell My resources are geared to silk screening perspex panels. Your panel appears to be all metalwork. I would advise you to try to get a group together as I think it would be too much for one person. Regards Rod On 31/10/15 20:11, Charles Anthony wrote: > The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) > emulator. > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ > > (Now it's a pretty big panel, so I'm thinking 1/4 scale.) > > I'm mostly interested in the lights; having functional switches would be > nice, but not critical. > > (My background: good grasp of basic digital electronics; did some wirewrap > boards back in the early eighties. Poor soldering skills, no workshop. Mad > software skillz.) > > I would like to build it reasonably cheaply. > > So I would start with a simple SBC; Beaglebone or the like, that can > function as a USB device. I can write the S/W to push a bunch of bits down > to it. > > What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. > > I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much reached my > design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the > technology to run that many LEDs. > > > TIA, > > -- Charles From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 31 16:25:32 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:25:32 -0700 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563531CC.7050901@jwsss.com> On 10/31/2015 1:11 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > The front panel I want to build is for my DPS8-M (aka Honeywell 6180) > emulator. > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/09/22/multics-honeywell-6180-mainframe-panel-on-ebay/ > > (Now it's a pretty big panel, so I'm thinking 1/4 scale.) I have one of those courtesy of Nick Adams. The system took 8 of these, Charles. Mine are missing the scrolls switches on the panel I have. These were from a Multics system which resided in Atlanta. thanks Jim > I'm mostly interested in the lights; having functional switches would be > nice, but not critical. > > (My background: good grasp of basic digital electronics; did some wirewrap > boards back in the early eighties. Poor soldering skills, no workshop. Mad > software skillz.) > > I would like to build it reasonably cheaply. > > So I would start with a simple SBC; Beaglebone or the like, that can > function as a USB device. I can write the S/W to push a bunch of bits down > to it. > > What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. > > I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much reached my > design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the > technology to run that many LEDs. > > > TIA, > > -- Charles > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 31 16:28:27 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:28:27 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <56350F55.6040505@bitsavers.org> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> <56350F55.6040505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5635327B.2000900@btinternet.com> Hi Al From a panel makers point of view It would be straight forward But without at least the lamp panel its just a nice wall hanging. On 31/10/15 18:58, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/30/15 11:32 PM, rod wrote: > >> Which computer would you nominate? >> > here is the weirdest DEC panel I have ever come across > > http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/mysteryPanel_Nov74.jpg > > that I spotted in a lot of DEC panels that were on display at CHM in 2001 > > > It is labeled "Special Order PDP/15 Order 11/20/74 s/s" but when Bob > Supnik > and I talked about it, we concluded it was for a Xerox Signa > architecture machine > in PDP 11/20 colors (magenta and wild rose) > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 16:35:27 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:35:27 -0400 Subject: Front panels References: <56352F7A.1080709@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2DB50CF0E72844D398E77408A60F9F2A@310e2> As Jon says, not really that complicated. Google DIY LED signs for lots of ideas; e.g. one of mine uses 75492 MOS LED drivers and 40158 shift registers plus a few current limiting resistors and driver transistors. Don't forget to share the finished project! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Elson" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Front panels > On 10/31/2015 03:11 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so >> LEDs. >> >> I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but >> I've pretty much reached my >> design limits. I need some guidance on locating >> and understanding the >> technology to run that many LEDs. >> > it really isn't that complicated. The simplest > might be a byte shift register, ie. a bunch of > octal D-FFs like > the 74HC374. Given a byte-wide group of GPIOs > on the Beagle Bone, you could send out 63 8-bit > words > with one additional GPIO to act as a clock for > the FFs. The LEDs could be driven directly from > the FF outputs with a resistor. With the > current generation of high-efficiency LEDs 10 mA > would be plenty of current, and so the FF > outputs would still be close enough the specs to > drive the next stage. One downside of this > scheme is if the serial transmission was slow, > you'd see a blink each time the Bone sent a new > light pattern. > > If you want to get more complicated, you could > have one HC374 for the shift register and one > HC374 as the latch. > You'd shift all 63 bytes through the byte-shift > register, pulsing the byte clock 63 times, and > then pulse the latch clock once to latch all the > 5xx bits of light info into the latch register, > which would allow the LEDs to be updated without > any flash as the shift reg is being shifted. > > Now, another way to do this is with > multiplexing. You could maybe have 8 64-bit > words that loaded to a small RAM, and the RAM is > scanned to load data to banks of 64 LEDs. This > reduces the number of drivers to, say, 64 > cathode drivers and 8 high-current anode > drivers, but complicates the rest of the thing a > fair bit. It will also cause the whole panel of > LEDs to flicker at the multiplexing rate, which > could be annoying when you flick your eyes > across the panel. > > Jon From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 31 16:35:08 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:35:08 -0700 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> Message-ID: <060a01d11424$03f6f730$0be4e590$@yahoo.ca> Thanks Corey. My keyboard is actually the brown single board version. Here's a picture of the hole in the back where the add on switch is (and some other pics of my unit): http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/Apple%20II%20A2S1 That tiny switch is all there is -- it was used to switch power on and off for the clone psu. I have been looking for a silver A2M power supply for eons but they seem to be hotly contested. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. > > Where are you located? > > It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. > > So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >> >> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> Corey Cohen >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >> >> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >> >> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >> >> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >> >> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >> >> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >> >> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to >>> be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>> all >>> opinion): >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>> >>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 31 16:35:08 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:35:08 -0700 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> Message-ID: <060a01d11424$03f6f730$0be4e590$@yahoo.ca> Thanks Corey. My keyboard is actually the brown single board version. Here's a picture of the hole in the back where the add on switch is (and some other pics of my unit): http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/unclefalter/library/Apple%20II%20A2S1 That tiny switch is all there is -- it was used to switch power on and off for the clone psu. I have been looking for a silver A2M power supply for eons but they seem to be hotly contested. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. > > Where are you located? > > It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. > > So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >> >> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> Corey Cohen >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >> >> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >> >> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >> >> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >> >> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >> >> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >> >> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to >>> be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>> all >>> opinion): >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>> >>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 31 16:35:43 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:35:43 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> Hi Tony I seem to remember, certainly in OEM land there were dev. systems with front panels and production systems without. In other words the front panel was option and could be fitted. Rod(PanelMan)Smallwood On 31/10/15 18:40, tony duell wrote: >> Hi Guys >> Sitting here doing the overlays for the 8/e silk screen run. >> I had a thought. Including all makes of computer old and new. >> What about a front panel with lights and switches for systems >> that never had one and could have done with one? >> Which computer would you nominate? > The obvious ones for me would be those DEC machines that never had > a real panel -- things like the 11/34 which has a keypad (toggle switches > and LEDs are much nicer!) and those with 'Console ODT' and a serial > terminal. I would like a real pront panel on my 11/44 and VAX11/730 machines. > > And the PERQ. At least front panel access to the microcode, and prefereably > to the main program memory as well. > >> I'm not about to do anything about it. >> But the answers should be interesting > I don't blame you!. In most cases you can't just add a frontpanel on later, especially > if you want access to internal CPU registers, etc. To add a frontpanel you would probably > have to redesign bits of the CPU. Good luck in adding a panel to the PERQ main memory > which does not cause problems with RasterOps... > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 31 16:36:08 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:36:08 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Thoughts In-Reply-To: <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> References: <56346065.2050207@btinternet.com> , <5635342F.7050301@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > I seem to remember, certainly in OEM land there were dev. > systems with front panels and production systems without. > In other words the front panel was option and could be fitted. Sure. The PDP8/f and PDP8/m are the well-known example. Many of the Philips P800s had optional full panels too (fortunately the ones I own do have the full panels). And there must be many more But I still claim it is difficult to add a panel to a machine that was never designed to have one. In the case of machines with optional full frontpanels the machine was designed to take a frontpanel and either to also run without it or there was some minimal panel (boot/reset/not much else) that provided enough logic that the processor didn't realise it didn't have the full panel (if you see what I mean). -tony From unclefalter at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 31 16:45:05 2015 From: unclefalter at yahoo.ca (Brad) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:45:05 -0700 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> Message-ID: <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> I had a closer look at the Rev 2. The keyboard is non functional (all the keys stick). The ROMs are applesoft, not integer basic (it has a ram add on card too). It powers up but nothing happens. Would that still have us in the $2k range? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > > If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. > > Where are you located? > > It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. > > So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >> >> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> Corey Cohen >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >> >> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >> >> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >> >> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >> >> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >> >> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >> >> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to >>> be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>> all >>> opinion): >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>> >>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks! >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Oct 31 17:03:06 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:03:06 +0100 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56353A9A.6060207@ljw.me.uk> On 31/10/15 21:11, Charles Anthony wrote: > What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. > > I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much reached my > design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the > technology to run that many LEDs. I have made a 60x120mm PCB which drives 64 LEDs using the MAX7219 or MAX7221 driver. This has a 3-signal link (clock, data, select/latch) and has a +5V supply. https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/display-power-control/MAX7219.html Here is the bare board. I'm not in a position to supply boards, but could provide the Eagle or Gerber files for anyone wanting to manufacture them. I'm also happy to supply the schematics, though there's nothing too special about them. http://s14.postimg.org/583oflg35/LED_driver.png The boards can be daisy-chained so you only need 3 outputs to drive any number of LEDs (depending on the update rate.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 31 17:35:16 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 15:35:16 -0700 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: <56352F7A.1080709@pico-systems.com> References: <56352F7A.1080709@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56354224.2090408@sbcglobal.net> On 10/31/2015 2:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/31/2015 03:11 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. >> >> I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much >> reached my >> design limits. I need some guidance on locating and understanding the >> technology to run that many LEDs. >> > it really isn't that complicated. The simplest might be a byte shift > register, ie. a bunch of octal D-FFs like > the 74HC374. Given a byte-wide group of GPIOs on the Beagle Bone, you > could send out 63 8-bit words > with one additional GPIO to act as a clock for the FFs. The LEDs > could be driven directly from the FF outputs with a resistor. With the > current generation of high-efficiency LEDs 10 mA would be plenty of > current, and so the FF outputs would still be close enough the specs > to drive the next stage. One downside of this scheme is if the serial > transmission was slow, you'd see a blink each time the Bone sent a new > light pattern. > > If you want to get more complicated, you could have one HC374 for the > shift register and one HC374 as the latch. > You'd shift all 63 bytes through the byte-shift register, pulsing the > byte clock 63 times, and then pulse the latch clock once to latch all > the 5xx bits of light info into the latch register, which would allow > the LEDs to be updated without any flash as the shift reg is being > shifted. > > Now, another way to do this is with multiplexing. You could maybe > have 8 64-bit words that loaded to a small RAM, and the RAM is scanned > to load data to banks of 64 LEDs. This reduces the number of drivers > to, say, 64 cathode drivers and 8 high-current anode drivers, but > complicates the rest of the thing a fair bit. It will also cause the > whole panel of LEDs to flicker at the multiplexing rate, which could > be annoying when you flick your eyes across the panel. > > Jon > The 74HC595 8 bit shift register has a storage register also. You can cascade them then update the displays with a single pulse. I'm using them with ULN2803 8 bit drivers to drive the incandescent bulbs on my 360/30 panel. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 17:52:05 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:52:05 -0000 Subject: Front panels In-Reply-To: <56354224.2090408@sbcglobal.net> References: <56352F7A.1080709@pico-systems.com> <56354224.2090408@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <015901d1142e$c43bf590$4cb3e0b0$@gmail.com> On my Baby Baby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGcAmrFoRrY I used three of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1P-x-NEW-MCP23S17-E-SP-IC-I-O-EXPANDER-SPI-16B-DIP28-A105-AR1-/181408786419?hash=item2a3cce67f3:g:PcAAAMXQh8NTceEZ that is the MCP23S17 as the inputs. A nice chip that?s 3.3v so compatible with modern FPGA and Raspberry PI and you get 16 lines per chip that can be set as in and out. You can cascade up to four chips on a 4-wire interface as these can be addressed by a 2-pin address input. Very Nice Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Rosenbloom > Sent: 31 October 2015 22:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Front panels > > On 10/31/2015 2:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 10/31/2015 03:11 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > >> What I don't know how to do is drive 500 or so LEDs. > >> > >> I am guessing a bunch of shift registers, but I've pretty much > >> reached my design limits. I need some guidance on locating and > >> understanding the technology to run that many LEDs. > >> > > it really isn't that complicated. The simplest might be a byte shift > > register, ie. a bunch of octal D-FFs like the 74HC374. Given a > > byte-wide group of GPIOs on the Beagle Bone, you could send out 63 > > 8-bit words with one additional GPIO to act as a clock for the FFs. > > The LEDs could be driven directly from the FF outputs with a resistor. > > With the current generation of high-efficiency LEDs 10 mA would be > > plenty of current, and so the FF outputs would still be close enough > > the specs to drive the next stage. One downside of this scheme is if > > the serial transmission was slow, you'd see a blink each time the Bone > > sent a new light pattern. > > > > If you want to get more complicated, you could have one HC374 for the > > shift register and one HC374 as the latch. > > You'd shift all 63 bytes through the byte-shift register, pulsing the > > byte clock 63 times, and then pulse the latch clock once to latch all > > the 5xx bits of light info into the latch register, which would allow > > the LEDs to be updated without any flash as the shift reg is being > > shifted. > > > > Now, another way to do this is with multiplexing. You could maybe > > have 8 64-bit words that loaded to a small RAM, and the RAM is scanned > > to load data to banks of 64 LEDs. This reduces the number of drivers > > to, say, 64 cathode drivers and 8 high-current anode drivers, but > > complicates the rest of the thing a fair bit. It will also cause the > > whole panel of LEDs to flicker at the multiplexing rate, which could > > be annoying when you flick your eyes across the panel. > > > > Jon > > > The 74HC595 8 bit shift register has a storage register also. You can cascade > them then update the displays with a single pulse. I'm using them with > ULN2803 8 bit drivers to drive the incandescent bulbs on my 360/30 panel. > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org From applecorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 31 17:59:06 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:59:06 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> Sticking keys are normal if it's a datanetics keyboard (original). You can recover the switches usually by flushing then with 91% ISP and lots of mechanical motion. I usually pull the key cap off and use a needle nose pliers about 50 times on each switch flushing it every so often using the ISP in an eye dropper. Even if there is a key or two you can't recover they can be found for about $10-15 each every so often on eBay. A set of Integer Roms on a language card will cost you about $150. Just remember when you usually see these early Apple II up for sale they usually aren't working correctly. Keep that in mind when you research prices. Early Apple II are like Rev-0 and Rev-1 ALTAIR, people usually don't sell them in perfect working condition unless you had some $$$$. So easier to buy one with potential and get to running. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Brad wrote: > > I had a closer look at the Rev 2. The keyboard is non functional (all the keys stick). The ROMs are applesoft, not integer basic (it has a ram add on card too). It powers up but nothing happens. Would that still have us in the $2k range? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? > > Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >> If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. >> >> Where are you located? >> >> It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. >> >> So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Corey Cohen >>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >>> >>> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >>> >>> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >>> >>> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >>> >>> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >>> >>> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >>> >>> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Corey >>> >>> corey cohen >>> u??o? ???o? >>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to >>>> be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>>> all >>>> opinion): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>>> >>>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > From applecorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 31 17:59:06 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:59:06 -0400 Subject: Apple II Rev 2 value? In-Reply-To: <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> References: <04c101d11291$e68be220$b3a3a660$@yahoo.ca> <802981C1-284D-4118-9263-3B08E1153581@optonline.net> <056301d1133b$36fd6770$a4f83650$@yahoo.ca> <1AB31D36-2A46-46BA-9E3B-BF77C9DD8A23@optonline.net> <060b01d11425$67f10810$37d31830$@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <200D06F2-829B-470C-B19A-0B20E02990A4@optonline.net> Sticking keys are normal if it's a datanetics keyboard (original). You can recover the switches usually by flushing then with 91% ISP and lots of mechanical motion. I usually pull the key cap off and use a needle nose pliers about 50 times on each switch flushing it every so often using the ISP in an eye dropper. Even if there is a key or two you can't recover they can be found for about $10-15 each every so often on eBay. A set of Integer Roms on a language card will cost you about $150. Just remember when you usually see these early Apple II up for sale they usually aren't working correctly. Keep that in mind when you research prices. Early Apple II are like Rev-0 and Rev-1 ALTAIR, people usually don't sell them in perfect working condition unless you had some $$$$. So easier to buy one with potential and get to running. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Brad wrote: > > I had a closer look at the Rev 2. The keyboard is non functional (all the keys stick). The ROMs are applesoft, not integer basic (it has a ram add on card too). It powers up but nothing happens. Would that still have us in the $2k range? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Corey Cohen > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? > > Yep. I have a spare blank datanetics PCB if you want to transfer your switches to a PCB which doesn't have repairs. This is for the version with the separate encoder daughter board. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > >> On Oct 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> >> If the keyboard is a datanetics with the daughter board, I may have a spare empty PCB if you want it to transfer your switches. I'll check tonight. >> >> Where are you located? >> >> It actually should be a silver supply. I have a rev-4 with original silver supply. I elected to repair instead of replace my supply. >> >> So I would think about $1000 to 1500 when all together. The big question is that hole you mentioned was drilled into the case. Can you be more specific? That affects the value. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> >>> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Brad wrote: >>> >>> My Rev 4 has an Apple Rev 4 board in it. Basically I tossed the clone board and PSU and replaced with what should be the correct motherboard (w/integer basic ROMs) and I think PSU. PSU seems to be a matter of debate, some have suggested to me it should be the silver A2M, others said it should be the gold 2+ style one I have in there now. Not sure on that. The keyboard is the original for sure, but I had to do some trace repair on it using short jumper wires. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Corey Cohen >>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 9:45 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Apple II Rev 2 value? >>> >>> Well your rev-4 setup isn't going to be worth top dollar because of the condition and clone motherboard, you don't mention if it's the original datanetics keyboard and if the powersupply is the original one. Infact it may only be worth a couple of hundred dollars or less. >>> >>> Basically the answers to those questions determine if you are simply selling a case or a case with extras. Notice I didn't say you are selling a Rev4 Apple II because the motherboard is missing. >>> >>> Also depending on the hole that was drilled also that can impact the value a lot for a case since people looking for a case want a good condition one. >>> >>> Answer those questions and we will give you a good idea. >>> >>> As for the Rev 2. In the condition explained I'd expect maybe 2k. btw. Rev 0 are going for more 3k if they are in complete condition. Most aren't. They tend to have replacement parts like supply or keyboard. If the motherboard is replaced they are just a case. >>> >>> Also with anything timing is important, if a person is looking at the time, they may spend more than if no one is looking at that specific time. I have seen eBay auctions sometimes too late and kicked my self how low something went for. You just never know. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Corey >>> >>> corey cohen >>> u??o? ???o? >>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Brad wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a rev 4 Apple II in the 38000 s/n range. I'm hoping to, over >>>> the years, gradually trade my way up to a Rev 0. I've seen Rev 0 >>>> units go on ebay recently for around $3000ish. Below that seems to >>>> be a jumble, mostly to do with completeness, originality, etc. >>>> Although, no always. Some have had motherboards upgraded to newer versions and still gone for $2500. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm looking to move up. My questions (and I realize this is >>>> all >>>> opinion): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) What would my Apple II rev 4 be worth? Again it's serial number is >>>> in the 38000 range, black label. It was in France and had its >>>> original board replaced with a clone board, and some customization >>>> including a small switch for power that was drilled into the back of >>>> the case was done. I have installed a Rev 4 board with Integer >>>> Basic chips. I also did some repairs on the keyboard and it is >>>> fully functional, but the repairs involved a couple of jumper wires to deal with bad traces. >>>> >>>> 2) What would you be willing to pay for a 12000 range s/n Rev 2 that is >>>> in so/so condition, some rusty chip legs and non-functional keyboard? >>>> Is a Rev 2 anything special? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4450/10864 - Release Date: 10/21/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 18:16:20 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:16:20 -0700 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: > Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend itself to posting back. > > Just wanted to say hi. > > Cheers, > Corey Are you the Apple-1 restore guy? From applecorey at optonline.net Sat Oct 31 18:29:26 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:29:26 -0400 Subject: Lurker no more... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Guilty... That's me. corey cohen u??o? ???o? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 7:16 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> Well I finally setup a separate email address so I can receive individual messages from cctalk instead of the daily digest which really doesn't lend itself to posting back. >> >> Just wanted to say hi. >> >> Cheers, >> Corey > > Are you the Apple-1 restore guy? From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Oct 31 19:13:05 2015 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:13:05 -0500 Subject: State of Illinois auction website Sun SPARC server and Digital line printer Message-ID: Hey everyone, I was browsing the state of illinois online auction site, iBid, and found these: https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=155511 https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=155521 Maybe someone can give one of them a home? I think they'll let a freight company pick it up for you if you can't pick it up in person. Regards, Joe From wilson at dbit.com Sat Oct 31 21:57:23 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:57:23 -0400 Subject: RF08/RS08 photos and panel measurements (Re: RK11-C Panel) In-Reply-To: References: <20151027002513.298F618C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56328156.7070300@charter.net> <56328236.5090009@btinternet.com> <5E0DAD45-DCDD-4B2A-BB27-A8CA623F7F69@charter.net> Message-ID: <20151101025723.GA27419@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 02:07:10PM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: >What is the plan with your RF08/ RS08? Is it possible to get it complete or >is just parts? The RS08 seems to be a DF32 on steroids. The question is if >it would be possible to have our unit working some day? Anyone tried to get >these things to run? I ran mine under TSS/8, 32 years ago, when there was still such thing as a timing track writer. It flaked out about 30 years ago but I still have it. Anyone have any ideas about what to do for air filters? IIRC you're supposed to replace them every 6 months, so I need about 70 to get caught up. John Wilson D Bit