From shadoooo at gmail.com  Fri May  1 04:48:43 2015
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 11:48:43 +0200
Subject: ACT and CMI Unibus boards
Message-ID: <55434BFB.8000702@gmail.com>

Hello,
thanks for the Info.
I will post images of all the boards in next days.

The ACT boards are indeed from Able Computer.
 From brochure pictures I identified these models:

- DUAL I/O compatible dual DR11-C
- BUSLINK for machine-machine bus link applications.

Unfortunately there are no info about any of these board.
Anybody has some documentations around on the shelf?

Thanks
Andrea

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri May  1 06:16:53 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 04:16:53 -0700
Subject: General Electric Terminet  HP 2762A
In-Reply-To: <55425643.5060306@bitsavers.org>
References: <DUB110-DS44E57B2782E52AADF3EA2C86D60@phx.gbl>
 <1659200040.2048952.1430410443978.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <55425643.5060306@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <554360A5.9030401@jwsss.com>



On 4/30/2015 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 4/30/15 9:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
>> I have the Terminet 340 Manuals scanned and ready to be uploaded to 
>> bitsavers amongst tons of other manuals and schematics.
>> It's just the lack of time preventing me from taking care of it.
>> However, I can upload them tonight or tomorrow.
>> @Al: You can then check what you have in addition to my docs for the 
>> GE TerminNet.
>>
>
> OK. I have the 300 service and users manuals. They should be up during 
> the day today.
> keep an eye on the bitsavers.org/pdf/ge/terminet dir whenever the 
> mirrors get around to
> copying them

I have updated the entry with the links to the documents, and with 
pictures requested by Lee Courtney.  Many thanks to all who responded.  
I'll post some video hopefully soon with some interesting output.

Now to find the paper roll bar, and some paper supply for it as well.

Again, thanks to Al Kossow and Pierre Gebhart for the documents, Al for 
the bitsavers ones, and Pierre for the offer.

I also picked up a tester gizmo for the Terminet 1200, on the off chance 
it will work with this unit.  Auction shown here:  Reading of the 
documents to see if this is useful or not is now in order.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231465512707

Thanks
Jim

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2015/04/2762a-terminal-printer-ge-terminet-300.html

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  1 07:14:38 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 14:14:38 +0200
Subject: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
In-Reply-To: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 April 2015 at 16:40, Bob Rickard <bob at warriston.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Second time of sending.  A response, please.
>
>
> While turning out my attic I unearthed obsolete *discs for a 1980s Amstrad
> computer *which has long been disposed of.  One disc is, as far as I know,
> in mint condition but a further twelve contain programmes. Another six discs
> contain long forgotten person data which I can't access.  I am intrigued to
> know what they contain.  Also in my searches I have found a *Microsoft Works
> manual* complete with system discs, and an *Amstrad user's manual*.  Also
> about a*dozen 5" discs* containing stock records of warehouse long
> demolished. Again, I am curious to see what I recorded 30 years ago.
>
> I am reluctant to consign these items to the dustbin if a) the discs can be
> deciphered, and b) they are are of use to someone else.  Your organisation
> has been suggested as a possible home for at least some of these items.  Are
> they of interest?  If not, do you know any organisation that might be?
>
> R.J. Rickard.
> Edinburgh.

Are you actually on the mailing list, Bob? Your mail provoked a whole
thread and there have been many helpful responses, including from me.
You need to join the list to participate.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  1 07:14:38 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 14:14:38 +0200
Subject: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
In-Reply-To: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 April 2015 at 16:40, Bob Rickard <bob at warriston.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Second time of sending.  A response, please.
>
>
> While turning out my attic I unearthed obsolete *discs for a 1980s Amstrad
> computer *which has long been disposed of.  One disc is, as far as I know,
> in mint condition but a further twelve contain programmes. Another six discs
> contain long forgotten person data which I can't access.  I am intrigued to
> know what they contain.  Also in my searches I have found a *Microsoft Works
> manual* complete with system discs, and an *Amstrad user's manual*.  Also
> about a*dozen 5" discs* containing stock records of warehouse long
> demolished. Again, I am curious to see what I recorded 30 years ago.
>
> I am reluctant to consign these items to the dustbin if a) the discs can be
> deciphered, and b) they are are of use to someone else.  Your organisation
> has been suggested as a possible home for at least some of these items.  Are
> they of interest?  If not, do you know any organisation that might be?
>
> R.J. Rickard.
> Edinburgh.

Are you actually on the mailing list, Bob? Your mail provoked a whole
thread and there have been many helpful responses, including from me.
You need to join the list to participate.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  1 07:21:12 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 14:21:12 +0200
Subject: Apple iBook G4 running Linux for sale
In-Reply-To: <55426675.7050806@cox.net>
References: <55426675.7050806@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEg1+Kx-EGy5BHj_v1qokJcT6R9dB8AUCsut4wEHSC-CA@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 April 2015 at 19:29, Shawn Gordon <shawn-gordon at cox.net> wrote:
> I have Debian/Gnome installed on it, 1.2gb RAM and 56gb HD.  I never
> configured the drivers for the wifi but a network cable works, shouldn't be
> hard to get the wifi working, I had it working with a different distro but
> swapped it out. Anyway, have a soft case for it and selling for just $80
> plus shipping.

I think you'll find that is a bit modern for ClassicCmp!

I suggest you try:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lowendmac/

Or the Vintage Apple Products group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/740916239362046

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From rickb at bensene.com  Fri May  1 08:53:58 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 06:53:58 -0700
Subject: HP (3rd party) id help?
In-Reply-To: <000001d08397$d546c630$7fd45290$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000901d08391$d7ec2b60$87c48220$@classiccmp.org>
 <5542AADF.8010502@bitsavers.org>
 <000001d08397$d546c630$7fd45290$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDBB@mail.bensene.com>

The reason I had a suspicion about this is that the HP 2000/Access
system that Multnomah County(Oregon) Intermediate Education District
provided to schools in the county had two of these modem banks on it.
When I saw the photo you posted, the memory of this immediately clicked
in the foreground of my mind.  How I remembered that the brand name was
Racal-Vadic, I've no clue, but a quick Google led me to the page I
provided the link to.

 The computer center (as it was called then) was very much off limits to
just about anyone but the operator, but somehow (can't remember the
circumstances that led to it), I ended up amongst a privileged few that
got to take a field trip there, and I got to see both of the systems (a
2000F and the 2000/Access) and visit with the operator.  We spent the
good part of a day there, and got to see and learn a lot about what a
computer operator (there also was a small IBM 360 system...probably
something like a 360/30 there) did.  It was a memorable day.

-Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay
West
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 3:49 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: HP (3rd party) id help?
> 
> Al & Rick - bingo! I found pics online, and you're definitely right -
RV VA1681C
> Sweet! Thanks a ton!
> 
> Which begs the question - anyone have one for trade? :)
> 
> J
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al
Kossow
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 5:21 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: HP (3rd party) id help?
> 
> On 4/30/15 3:05 PM, Jay West wrote:
> 
> > I have a picture of the system racks at
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/17325691225/
> >
> 
> Racal-Radic VA1681C
> 
> looks like people still have em for sale on the web
> 
> 


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri May  1 09:04:56 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 09:04:56 -0500
Subject: HP TSB console lockout (was RE: HP (3rd party) id help?
Message-ID: <000a01d08417$cddef680$699ce380$@classiccmp.org>

Rick wrote...
----
 The computer center (as it was called then) was very much off limits to
just about anyone but the operator, ...
----
Maybe it is/was common knowledge, but I had forgotten about this tidbit
until finding a 1 sentence note almost hidden in a manual...

To keep people from entering commands at the console who were not
authorized, TSB monitors bit 0 of the S register on the main cpu. If that
bit is set, no console commands will run and it just echos back the
characters that you type. On the older machines where the front panel key
switch actually could lock the panel, for security if people had access to
the machine room you could set Sreg bit 0 and turn the key to lock and take
it with you. Console disabled.

I was curious if this would work with the newer cpu's where the key switch
was just a door latch and the "lock/operate" switch was behind the front
panel. Alas, sr0 bit 0 works as expected to lock the console, but setting
the lock/operate switch behind the front panel does not disable the switch
register. So on those model cpus... I guess it's "security through
obscurity" :)

J



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri May  1 09:40:16 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 15:40:16 +0100
Subject: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
 <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <037a01d0841c$bdb04160$3910c420$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 01 May 2015 13:15
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
> 
> On 30 April 2015 at 16:40, Bob Rickard <bob at warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > Second time of sending.  A response, please.
> >
> >
> > While turning out my attic I unearthed obsolete *discs for a 1980s
> > Amstrad computer *which has long been disposed of.  One disc is, as
> > far as I know, in mint condition but a further twelve contain
> > programmes. Another six discs contain long forgotten person data which
> > I can't access.  I am intrigued to know what they contain.  Also in my
> > searches I have found a *Microsoft Works
> > manual* complete with system discs, and an *Amstrad user's manual*.
> > Also about a*dozen 5" discs* containing stock records of warehouse
> > long demolished. Again, I am curious to see what I recorded 30 years ago.
> >
> > I am reluctant to consign these items to the dustbin if a) the discs
> > can be deciphered, and b) they are are of use to someone else.  Your
> > organisation has been suggested as a possible home for at least some
> > of these items.  Are they of interest?  If not, do you know any organisation
> that might be?
> >
> > R.J. Rickard.
> > Edinburgh.
> 
> Are you actually on the mailing list, Bob? Your mail provoked a whole thread
> and there have been many helpful responses, including from me.
> You need to join the list to participate.
> 


And you probably need to copy him directly if you suspect (as do I), that he is not on the list.

:-)

Unless you bcc'd him I suppose.....

Regards

Rob


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri May  1 09:40:16 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 15:40:16 +0100
Subject: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
 <CAMTenCHaNN0MaDy8QGyDYZ6_Gh=4ZRJuK5ba7kxnRpvVvLBj_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <037a01d0841c$bdb04160$3910c420$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 01 May 2015 13:15
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
> 
> On 30 April 2015 at 16:40, Bob Rickard <bob at warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > Second time of sending.  A response, please.
> >
> >
> > While turning out my attic I unearthed obsolete *discs for a 1980s
> > Amstrad computer *which has long been disposed of.  One disc is, as
> > far as I know, in mint condition but a further twelve contain
> > programmes. Another six discs contain long forgotten person data which
> > I can't access.  I am intrigued to know what they contain.  Also in my
> > searches I have found a *Microsoft Works
> > manual* complete with system discs, and an *Amstrad user's manual*.
> > Also about a*dozen 5" discs* containing stock records of warehouse
> > long demolished. Again, I am curious to see what I recorded 30 years ago.
> >
> > I am reluctant to consign these items to the dustbin if a) the discs
> > can be deciphered, and b) they are are of use to someone else.  Your
> > organisation has been suggested as a possible home for at least some
> > of these items.  Are they of interest?  If not, do you know any organisation
> that might be?
> >
> > R.J. Rickard.
> > Edinburgh.
> 
> Are you actually on the mailing list, Bob? Your mail provoked a whole thread
> and there have been many helpful responses, including from me.
> You need to join the list to participate.
> 


And you probably need to copy him directly if you suspect (as do I), that he is not on the list.

:-)

Unless you bcc'd him I suppose.....

Regards

Rob


From shadoooo at gmail.com  Fri May  1 10:49:59 2015
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 17:49:59 +0200
Subject: ACT and CMI Unibus boards
Message-ID: <5543A0A7.3090208@gmail.com>

Pictures of the two boards here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/56w5p671dxnlb1q/10039%20DUAL%20IO.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rxf4e56cgo40bt5/10046_INTERLINK_U.jpg?dl=0

Andrea

From bbrown at harpercollege.edu  Fri May  1 13:25:07 2015
From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:25:07 +0000
Subject: Old terminal avaialble in Houston
In-Reply-To: <003301d0835b$45f1ee10$d1d5ca30$@com>
References: <003301d0835b$45f1ee10$d1d5ca30$@com>
Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057381759B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>

Can you send a picture?
Thank you.
-Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Williams
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 10:35 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: Old terminal avaialble in Houston

I have an old terminal available in Houston. It is a red terminal with Bendix and Logicport 2 printed on the front next to the side of the screen and an acoustic coupler on the top. It comes in a big red carrying case.
Need to move this out if anyone is interested contact me off list otherwise I guess I'll have to take it to the recycle center. Would rather see it go to someone who could use or enjoy it.

 

David Williams

www.trailingedge.com

 


From north at alum.mit.edu  Fri May  1 15:12:49 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 13:12:49 -0700
Subject: M9301-YB Bootstrap/Terminator ROM dumps / listings?
In-Reply-To: <55428B02.6010606@t-online.de>
References: <20150430150620.3D87B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55428B02.6010606@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <5543DE41.3000709@alum.mit.edu>

On 4/30/2015 1:05 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>
> Noel,
>
> Maybe you know about it, but here is the commented source code of all M9312 
> bootloaders. I found it on www.ak6dn.com 5 years ago, but the page seems dead 
> now.

Not dead at all.  www.ak6dn.com  forwards to: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/

The more direct link to the PDP-11 related stuff for TU58EM, M9312, and 2.11BSD 
is:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/

Don


>
> Very likely the actual PDP-11 code is identical to M9301, but the organization 
> of the bootloaders inside the ROMs is different:
> M9312 has a modular structure, because ROMs can be changed independently. 
> M9301 has a central directory.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Joerg
>
>
>
>
> Am 30.04.2015 um 17:06 schrieb Noel Chiappa:
>>      > From: Jorg Hoppe
>>
>>      >> Here's what I have so far:
>>      >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/M9301-YA.mac
>>
>>      > Thanks for that effort!
>>
>> Eh, de nada. Interesting and educational.
>>
>>      > The M9312 code should be similar, at least it may expose some ideas
>>
>> Some parts of it (e.g. the CPU diagnostic) are mostly identical (and the
>> comments there, particularly on the single-op register instructions, are
>> useful to total understanding of that code in the M9301); but alas, I had
>> already done that part of the M9301 (at least, at a surface level)!
>>
>> Much of the M9312 (including the functionality of most of what I had yet to
>> read in the M9301) was quite different. I did manage to get the 'print
>> number' code out of it, but that was pretty much it.
>>
>> So I've done a lot of the remaining M9301-YA code (new version uploaded to
>> location above); not the per-device code, I'll probably blow that off, but
>> other than that, only a few tiny sections remain to be understood.
>>
>> Can someone with a M9301-YA please verify for me that location 165450
>> contains 0770? I think that perhaps that is wrong, because the code makes no
>> sense if that's correct - maybe a bit has been dropped, or something?
>>
>> And if anyone has a good M9301-YB, I would appreciate a dump. (I do have one,
>> but don't - yet - have a running UNIBUS -11 to plug it into.)
>>
>>
>>      > From: Don North
>>
>>      > I've had two DL11-W in my 11/34A BA11-K box for years and have never
>>      > had an LTC issue. I suppose if you had a a larger number (say four or
>>      > more) you might possibly see an LTC issue
>>
>> Hey, all I know is what's in the manual (which Josh posted). :-)
>>
>> I'd forgotten there was a jumper you could pull - I tend not to like to do
>> things like that as it makes the cards non-pull-and-plug interchangeable. Hence
>> my suggestion to 'just use an M7800'.
>>
>>     Noel
>>
>>
>


From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Fri May  1 15:27:19 2015
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 22:27:19 +0200
Subject: M9301-YB Bootstrap/Terminator ROM dumps / listings?
In-Reply-To: <5543DE41.3000709@alum.mit.edu>
References: <20150430150620.3D87B18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <55428B02.6010606@t-online.de> <5543DE41.3000709@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5543E1A7.3050007@t-online.de>



Am 01.05.2015 um 22:12 schrieb Don North:
> On 4/30/2015 1:05 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>>
>> Noel,
>>
>> Maybe you know about it, but here is the commented source code of all
>> M9312 bootloaders. I found it on www.ak6dn.com 5 years ago, but the
>> page seems dead now.
>
> Not dead at all.  www.ak6dn.com  forwards to: http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/
>
> The more direct link to the PDP-11 related stuff for TU58EM, M9312, and
> 2.11BSD is:  http://ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/
Don,

There's something wrong: Since months I get the message
"Forbidden - You don't have permission to access /PDP-11/ on this server. "
when opening your URL.

Joerg

>
> Don
>
>
>>
>> Very likely the actual PDP-11 code is identical to M9301, but the
>> organization of the bootloaders inside the ROMs is different:
>> M9312 has a modular structure, because ROMs can be changed
>> independently. M9301 has a central directory.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Joerg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 30.04.2015 um 17:06 schrieb Noel Chiappa:
>>>      > From: Jorg Hoppe
>>>
>>>      >> Here's what I have so far:
>>>      >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/M9301-YA.mac
>>>
>>>      > Thanks for that effort!
>>>
>>> Eh, de nada. Interesting and educational.
>>>
>>>      > The M9312 code should be similar, at least it may expose some
>>> ideas
>>>
>>> Some parts of it (e.g. the CPU diagnostic) are mostly identical (and the
>>> comments there, particularly on the single-op register instructions, are
>>> useful to total understanding of that code in the M9301); but alas, I
>>> had
>>> already done that part of the M9301 (at least, at a surface level)!
>>>
>>> Much of the M9312 (including the functionality of most of what I had
>>> yet to
>>> read in the M9301) was quite different. I did manage to get the 'print
>>> number' code out of it, but that was pretty much it.
>>>
>>> So I've done a lot of the remaining M9301-YA code (new version
>>> uploaded to
>>> location above); not the per-device code, I'll probably blow that
>>> off, but
>>> other than that, only a few tiny sections remain to be understood.
>>>
>>> Can someone with a M9301-YA please verify for me that location 165450
>>> contains 0770? I think that perhaps that is wrong, because the code
>>> makes no
>>> sense if that's correct - maybe a bit has been dropped, or something?
>>>
>>> And if anyone has a good M9301-YB, I would appreciate a dump. (I do
>>> have one,
>>> but don't - yet - have a running UNIBUS -11 to plug it into.)
>>>
>>>
>>>      > From: Don North
>>>
>>>      > I've had two DL11-W in my 11/34A BA11-K box for years and have
>>> never
>>>      > had an LTC issue. I suppose if you had a a larger number (say
>>> four or
>>>      > more) you might possibly see an LTC issue
>>>
>>> Hey, all I know is what's in the manual (which Josh posted). :-)
>>>
>>> I'd forgotten there was a jumper you could pull - I tend not to like
>>> to do
>>> things like that as it makes the cards non-pull-and-plug
>>> interchangeable. Hence
>>> my suggestion to 'just use an M7800'.
>>>
>>>     Noel
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  1 15:29:15 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  1 May 2015 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
Message-ID: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>


    > On 4/14/15 2:07 AM, Nigel Williams wrote:

    >> I hope someone is able to rescue this system

For those who were interested in this thing's fate, I just picked it up, and
it's sitting safely in my garage, waiting for the new owner to arrange
shipping.

It's in really good shape inside (unlike my rodent 11/34's :-), and the cards
look like they are all there. (If anyone's particularly interested in this
machine, email me - _not the list_! - and I'll send you a copy of my detailed
report to the new owner on its condition.)

    > From: Al Kossow

    > There are a couple of obvious things missing, like the cold-start
    > cassette 

Actually, there _is_ one of those there, still in the casette drive. Not sure
how good a shape it's in after this long (or the casette drive, for that
matter), but...

    > and any disk drives.

Oddly enough, the seller did have two Burroughs packs (4 platter, I think).
Not sure if they are from this machine, or what's on them - or how one would
ever find a drive to read them on!

    > dumps of the tapes would be a good thing

Alas, the tapes appear to be un-connected to the machine.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  1 15:33:51 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  1 May 2015 16:33:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M9301-YB Bootstrap/Terminator ROM dumps / listings?
Message-ID: <20150501203351.4F0A718C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jorg Hoppe

    >> Much of the M9312 ... was quite different [from the M9301]

    > ... here is the commented source code of all M9312 bootloaders.
    > ...
    > Very likely the actual PDP-11 code is identical to M9301

Err.... :-)

	Noel

From slandon110 at gmail.com  Fri May  1 16:01:56 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 17:01:56 -0400
Subject: FREE FOR SHIPPING or LOCAL PICK UP: P133 DOS Gaming Machine
Message-ID: <5543E9C4.7060609@gmail.com>

Just clearing out stuff this spring.

P133 Machine
16MB RAM
2GB HD
5.25 inch FDD- 360KB
3.5in FDD 1.44mb
Has Windows 95 installed on it and a Voodoo 2 Card in it.

Used to be my DOS Gaming machine,  but ive since replaced it with 
another machine.

Was given to me,  So its Free for the cost of shipping to anyone who 
wants it,   Or wants to come pick it up in Farwell Michigan


Steve

From j at ckrubin.us  Fri May  1 16:25:25 2015
From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 21:25:25 +0000
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
Message-ID: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece of equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.

Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?

Thanks,
Jack

From ian at platinum.net  Fri May  1 16:27:21 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 14:27:21 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>

Jack,

I?ve collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything that has a serial number might be decodable.

Hope it helps.

Ian

http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>


> On May 1, 2015, at 2:25 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
> 
> Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece of equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.
> 
> Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9CC3A13EF04811E4BA59713093ED0201


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Fri May  1 18:10:16 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 00:10:16 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 01 May 2015 14:27:21 -0700"
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>

Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>
>Jack,
>
>I've collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything that has a serial number might be decodable.
>
>Hope it helps.
>
>Ian
>
>http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>

There are some more codes here:

http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1612

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

>
>> On May 1, 2015, at 2:25 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece of equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.
>> 
>> Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jack
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9CC3A13EF04811E4BA59713093ED0201

From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com  Fri May  1 18:21:08 2015
From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 09:21:08 +1000
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
In-Reply-To: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdz15xSSQ2-_RGDC8Yt3v=_n-3aC5m=0qaQoc=k-nd_FKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:29 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Alas, the tapes appear to be un-connected to the machine.

Do any of the tape labels suggest original distribution media? if so
would you be willing to share some of the descriptions please.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  1 12:51:41 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 10:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Obsolete computer discs, etc.
In-Reply-To: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <55423EE8.7000000@warriston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505011045480.15068@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2015, Bob Rickard wrote:
> Second time of sending.  A response, please.

Second time of replying.  Acknowledgement, please.

You posted to a discussion list, but if you are not a member,
the responses would not have been sent to you.

Which size(s) of disks?
3"?, 3.5"?, 5.25"?
Single-sided, flippy, or double-sided?

Which OS's?

Is your interest in their contents, curiosity?  desperate need?

There are still numerous people who can read those disks,
including some who want/need 3" media.
Some of themare relatively close to you.


Good luck,
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May  1 17:40:28 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 18:40:28 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>

How cool, thanks, Ian! Looks like my VAX herd is mostly from Albuquerque,
with a few from Westfield to round out the mix. I was curious about my
11/34 as well but I can't cursorily locate the serial tag on it. I'll have
to give it a more thorough once-over at some point ... Neat :O

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:

> Jack,
>
> I?ve collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put
> them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything
> that has a serial number might be decodable.
>
> Hope it helps.
>
> Ian
>
> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <
> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>
>
> > On May 1, 2015, at 2:25 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
> >
> > Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece
> of equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my
> equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip
> handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.
> >
> > Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jack
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam
> here:
> http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9CC3A13EF04811E4BA59713093ED0201
>
>

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri May  1 18:47:17 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 18:47:17 -0500
Subject: RS/6000 (AIX) password reset - Linux?
Message-ID: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>


So, I got a couple of RS/6000 systems (7043-140's) from another listmember 
a while back, which I've finally got around to looking at. Both appear to 
be working (one had a bad cache RAM connection, now fixed), although I only 
have one drive between the two, which has AIX 4.3.2 installed.

I don't have install media, and I don't know the root password; question 
is, can anyone tell me if Linux can mount AIX's filesystem, so that I can 
reset it? I'm seeing a whole bunch of conflicting reports about that, in 
particular that Linux' idea of JFS is based on that in OS/2, which is a 
different animal to that which existed in AIX.  (reason for asking rather 
than just trying is that I  don't actually have a PC-based SCSI board here 
with me; I'd have to put the AIX drive in one of my Sun or SGI systems, 
snarf raw data into a file via dd and FTP it across to mount it via a 
loopback device under Linux - then do the reverse to get the modified image 
back onto the disk)

If it comes to it, I can try scanning the raw disk blocks for root's entry 
in the passwd file, removing the password (which I assume will just be a 
single-character indicator to use a shadow file anyway) and making up the 
slack in the comment field - which will hopefully work. But it would be far 
easier to just access the file directly.

cheers

Jules



From north at alum.mit.edu  Fri May  1 19:00:24 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 17:00:24 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>

On 5/1/2015 3:40 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> How cool, thanks, Ian! Looks like my VAX herd is mostly from Albuquerque,
> with a few from Westfield to round out the mix. I was curious about my
> 11/34 as well but I can't cursorily locate the serial tag on it. I'll have
> to give it a more thorough once-over at some point ... Neat :O

Many of the PDP-11s in the 70s/80s were built in the DEC plants in Puerto Rico 
(Aguadilla
and San German). DEC ran their own charter aircraft between Worcester and Puerto 
Rico
back then that carried parts and people back and forth. If I recall it was a 
Lockheed Constellation
that had a big cargo bay amidship, and a small 6 to 8 cabin in the tail of the 
aircraft. When I
was with the DEC PDP-11 diagnostic group back inr the late 70s I went down to 
Aguadilla on
this aircraft to bring up the 11/60 diagnostics at the site for manufacturing 
use. Days on the
floor helping debug issues in manufacturing, nites at the local bar on the 
beach. I just remember
the rats in the palm trees staring down at us while we drank and ate. And of 
course snorkling
at the beach when the weekend came.

I believe on many of the inspection stickers you might see AG (Aguadilla) or SG 
(San German)
and WF (Westfield, MA which did final assembly).

Don


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  1 19:56:16 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  1 May 2015 20:56:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
Message-ID: <20150502005616.D24A018C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Nigel Williams

    > Do any of the tape labels suggest original distribution media? if so
    > would you be willing to share some of the descriptions please.

None of the tapes have descriptive labels; all have only large labels with
4-digit numbers. In other words, they look like somsone's data tapes.

One has a label from the Durham Insurance Company; a letter (which I found in
the base of one of the cardboard boxes which held the tapes) is from the
North Carolina Department of Public Instruction, and says that they received
a "gift of a large number of used magnetic tapes" from that company, which
they are handing out for free.

Like I said, the tapes are useless.

	Noel

From supervinx at libero.it  Fri May  1 20:15:58 2015
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 03:15:58 +0200
Subject: IBM 5120-troubles removing card cage
Message-ID: <1430529358.2365.14.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>

Hi!
I feel a bit stupid, since I tore apart a lot of machines so I should be
able to remove the card cage... but...

I removed back covers and the two screws which hold the cage in place.
I pulled gently the card, and I encountered a fair amount of resistance.

Looking into the chassis (there's a hole under the cathodic tube) I
noticed that the yellow flat cable (coming from the power section)
blocked the cage on the left.

Freed the cage I couldn't extract it completely, since the cage fan
cable and a semitransparent flat cable (both disappearing internally,
can't say where by now) are very short. I was barely able to remove the
cage metal top cover.
The semitransparent flat cable starts from the I/O Cable Driver card in
the "A" position...

Am I missing something?
The manual has images of the card cage fully extracted still connected
to the cables, but I wasn't able to do this.

Thanks!
-- 
Vincenzo (aka Supervinx)

--==ooOoo==--
My computer collection:
http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum

--==ooOoo==--
You can reach me at:
www.supervinx.com
www.facebook.com/supervinx
http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx
http://www.myspace.com/supervinx


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri May  1 20:36:33 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 21:36:33 -0400
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
References: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <520CE9C6984544EDA9363849407A5564@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North 
Carolina


>    > From: Al Kossow
>
>    > There are a couple of obvious things 
> missing, like the cold-start
>    > cassette
>
> Actually, there _is_ one of those there, still 
> in the casette drive. Not sure
> how good a shape it's in after this long (or the 
> casette drive, for that
> matter), but...
>
> Noel

I suspected that it might still be in there; they 
were usually kept in the drive.

Can't help with the tape, but just in case the 
drive is bad I have a good one (AFAIK).

m 


From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Fri May  1 21:06:56 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 19:06:56 -0700
Subject: RS/6000 (AIX) password reset - Linux?
In-Reply-To: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150502020657.1CB0040525@smtp.hushmail.com>

Did a quick Google search. Here's a thread discussing booting from CD's:

http://www.unix.com/aix/19272-booting-rs-6000-machines-cd.html

Here's a eBay seller with the RS/6000 boot discs:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-AIX-OS-Ver-5L-for-POWER-V-5-1-5765-E61-LINUX-affinity-RS-6000-5-new-discs-/381244154027?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58c3ec20ab

I don't know about RS6000's so I don't know if these are bootable in your system (correct processor etc). But basically you need to boot the boot disc boot in single user mode. Mount the root partition and and edit the password files. If you don't need what is on the disks you'd be better off doing a fresh install.

On May 1, 2015 at 4:46 PM, "Jules Richardson" <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>So, I got a couple of RS/6000 systems (7043-140's) from another 
>listmember 
>a while back, which I've finally got around to looking at. Both 
>appear to 
>be working (one had a bad cache RAM connection, now fixed), 
>although I only 
>have one drive between the two, which has AIX 4.3.2 installed.
>
>I don't have install media, and I don't know the root password; 
>question 
>is, can anyone tell me if Linux can mount AIX's filesystem, so 
>that I can 
>reset it? I'm seeing a whole bunch of conflicting reports about 
>that, in 
>particular that Linux' idea of JFS is based on that in OS/2, which 
>is a 
>different animal to that which existed in AIX.  (reason for asking 
>rather 
>than just trying is that I  don't actually have a PC-based SCSI 
>board here 
>with me; I'd have to put the AIX drive in one of my Sun or SGI 
>systems, 
>snarf raw data into a file via dd and FTP it across to mount it 
>via a 
>loopback device under Linux - then do the reverse to get the 
>modified image 
>back onto the disk)
>
>If it comes to it, I can try scanning the raw disk blocks for 
>root's entry 
>in the passwd file, removing the password (which I assume will 
>just be a 
>single-character indicator to use a shadow file anyway) and making 
>up the 
>slack in the comment field - which will hopefully work. But it 
>would be far 
>easier to just access the file directly.
>
>cheers
>
>Jules


From ian at platinum.net  Fri May  1 22:37:50 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 20:37:50 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <41B29E7C-0A04-48B3-ACD4-A2227F548D4A@platinum.net>


> On May 1, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> 
> There are some more codes here:
> 
> http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1612

Thanks Peter.  There were some new codes there since the last time I checked.  I?ve added the new ones to my table.  I appreciate the update.

Ian


From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Fri May  1 23:55:05 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:55:05 +1000
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
In-Reply-To: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150501202915.04F1518C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <002801d08494$295559b0$7c000d10$@eastek.com.au>

Hi all,
I just wanted to say a very big (huge!) thanks here on the list to Noel
Chiappa for his help/work picking up the B1900 system yesterday.

It would have been highly challenging to get the machine together for
shipment without Noel's help, and would have had to happen in a rush with
things either being missed and/or left behind out of necessity etc (plus
communication issues, packaging - the list goes on).

Having a very experienced person like Noel to help has been too good to be
true. 

(In fact the whole thing is bit incredible after seeing the loss of the
B7800 frame over here in Aus just recently).

There are numerous questions to be answered (hopefully over time with list
member's help!), but this msg is to say thanks very much firstly for Noel's
efforts with the pickup.

- Evan Linwood






-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: Saturday, 2 May 2015 6:29 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina


    > On 4/14/15 2:07 AM, Nigel Williams wrote:

    >> I hope someone is able to rescue this system

For those who were interested in this thing's fate, I just picked it up, and
it's sitting safely in my garage, waiting for the new owner to arrange
shipping.

It's in really good shape inside (unlike my rodent 11/34's :-), and the
cards look like they are all there. (If anyone's particularly interested in
this machine, email me - _not the list_! - and I'll send you a copy of my
detailed report to the new owner on its condition.)

    > From: Al Kossow

    > There are a couple of obvious things missing, like the cold-start
    > cassette 

Actually, there _is_ one of those there, still in the casette drive. Not
sure how good a shape it's in after this long (or the casette drive, for
that matter), but...

    > and any disk drives.

Oddly enough, the seller did have two Burroughs packs (4 platter, I think).
Not sure if they are from this machine, or what's on them - or how one would
ever find a drive to read them on!

    > dumps of the tapes would be a good thing

Alas, the tapes appear to be un-connected to the machine.

	Noel


From supervinx at libero.it  Sat May  2 00:44:48 2015
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 07:44:48 +0200
Subject: RS/6000 (AIX) password reset - Linux?
In-Reply-To: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>
References: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1430545488.2325.15.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>

Il giorno ven, 01/05/2015 alle 18.47 -0500, Jules Richardson ha scritto:
> So, I got a couple of RS/6000 systems (7043-140's) from another listmember 
> a while back, which I've finally got around to looking at. Both appear to 
> be working (one had a bad cache RAM connection, now fixed), although I only 
> have one drive between the two, which has AIX 4.3.2 installed.
> 
Well, up to version 3 you could do a floppy boot.
I have 4.3.3 ISOs available, original CDs coming from one of my
machines.

399485763 2009-12-16 12:14 AIX-4.3.3-01.iso.bz2

I think it's the safest way to reset root password.


-- 
Vincenzo (aka Supervinx)

--==ooOoo==--
My computer collection:
http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum

--==ooOoo==--
You can reach me at:
www.supervinx.com
www.facebook.com/supervinx
http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx
http://www.myspace.com/supervinx


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat May  2 01:01:38 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 07:01:38 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55446842.5070606@btinternet.com>

I think we also had a plant in Ireland at a place called Mervue

Rod Smallwood


On 01/05/2015 23:40, Sean Caron wrote:
> How cool, thanks, Ian! Looks like my VAX herd is mostly from Albuquerque,
> with a few from Westfield to round out the mix. I was curious about my
> 11/34 as well but I can't cursorily locate the serial tag on it. I'll have
> to give it a more thorough once-over at some point ... Neat :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:
>
>> Jack,
>>
>> I?ve collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put
>> them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything
>> that has a serial number might be decodable.
>>
>> Hope it helps.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <
>> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>>
>>
>>> On May 1, 2015, at 2:25 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece
>> of equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my
>> equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip
>> handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.
>>> Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam
>> here:
>> http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9CC3A13EF04811E4BA59713093ED0201
>>
>>


From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May  1 20:30:37 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 21:30:37 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUa9KhX94xjCz9Vd0S0rXDKnp8GrSLq6raBiZvb_2cacg@mail.gmail.com>

Ah! I see it, stamped "AG". Cool. Thanks! Neat backstory, sounds like a
good time.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> On 5/1/2015 3:40 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>
>> How cool, thanks, Ian! Looks like my VAX herd is mostly from Albuquerque,
>> with a few from Westfield to round out the mix. I was curious about my
>> 11/34 as well but I can't cursorily locate the serial tag on it. I'll have
>> to give it a more thorough once-over at some point ... Neat :O
>>
>
> Many of the PDP-11s in the 70s/80s were built in the DEC plants in Puerto
> Rico (Aguadilla
> and San German). DEC ran their own charter aircraft between Worcester and
> Puerto Rico
> back then that carried parts and people back and forth. If I recall it was
> a Lockheed Constellation
> that had a big cargo bay amidship, and a small 6 to 8 cabin in the tail of
> the aircraft. When I
> was with the DEC PDP-11 diagnostic group back inr the late 70s I went down
> to Aguadilla on
> this aircraft to bring up the 11/60 diagnostics at the site for
> manufacturing use. Days on the
> floor helping debug issues in manufacturing, nites at the local bar on the
> beach. I just remember
> the rats in the palm trees staring down at us while we drank and ate. And
> of course snorkling
> at the beach when the weekend came.
>
> I believe on many of the inspection stickers you might see AG (Aguadilla)
> or SG (San German)
> and WF (Westfield, MA which did final assembly).
>
> Don
>
>

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Sat May  2 03:11:31 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 09:11:31 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUa9KhX94xjCz9Vd0S0rXDKnp8GrSLq6raBiZvb_2cacg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAA43vkUa9KhX94xjCz9Vd0S0rXDKnp8GrSLq6raBiZvb_2cacg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHXKgCUd3yshe4WvLJMmSEY28jQxceLVJgBH2RhZ2hvhYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Very cool story Don! Thanks for sharing.

On 2 May 2015 at 02:30, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Ah! I see it, stamped "AG". Cool. Thanks! Neat backstory, sounds like a
> good time.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 5/1/2015 3:40 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> >
> >> How cool, thanks, Ian! Looks like my VAX herd is mostly from
> Albuquerque,
> >> with a few from Westfield to round out the mix. I was curious about my
> >> 11/34 as well but I can't cursorily locate the serial tag on it. I'll
> have
> >> to give it a more thorough once-over at some point ... Neat :O
> >>
> >
> > Many of the PDP-11s in the 70s/80s were built in the DEC plants in Puerto
> > Rico (Aguadilla
> > and San German). DEC ran their own charter aircraft between Worcester and
> > Puerto Rico
> > back then that carried parts and people back and forth. If I recall it
> was
> > a Lockheed Constellation
> > that had a big cargo bay amidship, and a small 6 to 8 cabin in the tail
> of
> > the aircraft. When I
> > was with the DEC PDP-11 diagnostic group back inr the late 70s I went
> down
> > to Aguadilla on
> > this aircraft to bring up the 11/60 diagnostics at the site for
> > manufacturing use. Days on the
> > floor helping debug issues in manufacturing, nites at the local bar on
> the
> > beach. I just remember
> > the rats in the palm trees staring down at us while we drank and ate. And
> > of course snorkling
> > at the beach when the weekend came.
> >
> > I believe on many of the inspection stickers you might see AG (Aguadilla)
> > or SG (San German)
> > and WF (Westfield, MA which did final assembly).
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sat May  2 04:37:13 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 10:37:13 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 02 May 2015 07:01:38 +0100"
 <55446842.5070606@btinternet.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PLHW9HA3ME007JEQ@beyondthepale.ie>

Rod Smallwood wrote:

>
> I think we also had a plant in Ireland at a place called Mervue
>

Mervue is Galway.  Mervue is name of a place on the outskirts of Galway city
where the plant was situated.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat May  2 06:14:43 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:14:43 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <01PLHW9HA3ME007JEQ@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <01PLHW9HA3ME007JEQ@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <5544B1A3.7000202@btinternet.com>

Ah yes ..
Thirty  Years is a long time
Oh well ....
A  Rose by any other name.....

On 02/05/2015 10:37, Peter Coghlan wrote:
> Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
>>
>> I think we also had a plant in Ireland at a place called Mervue
>>
>
> Mervue is Galway.  Mervue is name of a place on the outskirts of 
> Galway city
> where the plant was situated.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May  2 10:06:52 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 11:06:52 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>


> On May 1, 2015, at 7:10 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> 
> Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>> 
>> Jack,
>> 
>> I've collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything that has a serial number might be decodable.
>> 
>> Hope it helps.
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>> 
> 
> There are some more codes here:
> 
> http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1612

A simple rule to remember: DEC originally had two-letter site codes.  When they used them all up, they switched to three letter codes, and converted all existing two letter codes to three letters by appending ?O?.  So if it ends in O, it was originally a two-letter code; if it doesn?t (like SHR) then it was created after the change and it doesn?t have a two-character equivalent.

I don?t remember that ZK was ever a manufacturing site so I wouldn?t expect to see it in a serial number.  Along the same lines, there was Merrimack, NH: MK(O), also a software engineering site.  There were at least two other Nashua locations, one of which was Nashua CSS; I don?t remember the site codes for either  (NU, perhaps?).  The CSS site might show up on serial numbers of CSS oddball stuff (the DX11 for example, if it was built at that particular CSS facility).  I wonder if I still have a DEC phone book buried somewhere...

	paul


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May  2 11:09:43 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  2 May 2015 12:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Where's a good place to list stuff?
Message-ID: <20150502160943.2C44C18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Todd Goodman

    > There aren't many deals to be found on eBay anymore (IMNSHO anyway) for
    > vintage computer gear. Test equipment is a different story.

Well, it still does happen occasionally. Someone (no idea who) recently got a
really nice BA11-S for only $80 (admittedly, in part because I was confused
about the closing time, and missed that auction :-). Although I guess
"occasionally" is pretty much the same as "not many", so I guess you're right.

If people are willing to buy lots (i.e. N things in a group), you can also
get good deals. E.g. I know of recent lot that included 4 11/73 CPU cards; it
turned out that although only one worked straight off, the J11 chips on the
other three were all good - and the whole lot (including a bunch of other
boards, all working) was only like $250.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May  2 13:02:51 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:02:51 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>


> On May 2, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2015, at 7:10 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
>> 
>> Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jack,
>>> 
>>> I've collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything that has a serial number might be decodable.
>>> 
>>> Hope it helps.
>>> 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>>> 
>> 
>> There are some more codes here:
>> 
>> http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1612
> 
> A simple rule to remember: DEC originally had two-letter site codes.  When they used them all up, they switched to three letter codes, and converted all existing two letter codes to three letters by appending ?O?.  So if it ends in O, it was originally a two-letter code; if it doesn?t (like SHR) then it was created after the change and it doesn?t have a two-character equivalent.

So to be explicit: that means SH is *not* the two-letter equivalent of SHR; it would be SHO, whatever place that migth be.

	paul


From ian at platinum.net  Sat May  2 13:19:59 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 11:19:59 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>

Updated the page to reflect the O codes.

Ian

> On May 2, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 2, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 1, 2015, at 7:10 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ian McLaughlin wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Jack,
>>>> 
>>>> I've collated DEC facility codes from a few sites I have found and put them into a table.  This is from the serial number, so possibly anything that has a serial number might be decodable.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope it helps.
>>>> 
>>>> Ian
>>>> 
>>>> http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes <http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> There are some more codes here:
>>> 
>>> http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1612
>> 
>> A simple rule to remember: DEC originally had two-letter site codes.  When they used them all up, they switched to three letter codes, and converted all existing two letter codes to three letters by appending ?O?.  So if it ends in O, it was originally a two-letter code; if it doesn?t (like SHR) then it was created after the change and it doesn?t have a two-character equivalent.
> 
> So to be explicit: that means SH is *not* the two-letter equivalent of SHR; it would be SHO, whatever place that migth be.
> 
> 	paul
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=7A0BE0C2F0F511E4BBDC635C93ED0201 <http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=7A0BE0C2F0F511E4BBDC635C93ED0201>

From jws at jwsss.com  Sat May  2 13:45:13 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 11:45:13 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com>



On 5/2/2015 11:19 AM, Ian McLaughlin wrote:
> Updated the page to reflect the O codes.
>
> Ian

http://vaxhaven.com/DEC_Facility_Codes  


I have shared the information with a friend who worked with a partner in 
Phoenix when VT-100s and LA products were produced there.  One thing he 
pointed out was there was also a saguaro cactus symbol on the Phoenix 
boards, along with the PN code.  There was a lot of locally produced 
product and he was able to get a lot of stuff that had local build boards.

There are two samples with the cactus in these photos.  There was also a 
palm tree for product from Albuquerque, NM.  He figures there may have 
been other symbols as well as the codes.

He of course has not been able to lay hands on the palm tree sample, but 
is going to look for it.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1k08moroin1tii8/AABDcWSnlUpBu7z9Q-0L8Mvda?dl=0

Thanks
Jim


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  2 14:06:10 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:06:10 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>

I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000 
model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 
3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.

Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made 
the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the 
country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles 
away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck 
which meant getting it out without a forklift was going to be 
interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I realized that it was 
packed in the original crate from IBM!  It even had the original 
uncrating instructions stuffed into the crate...which wasn't 
particularly useful!

Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number 
of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag 
bus-and-tag cables.

It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I 
have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.

TTFN - Guy


From wulfman at wulfman.com  Sat May  2 14:19:35 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:19:35 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <55452347.1050603@wulfman.com>

what did you pay for a new machine ?


On 5/2/2015 12:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
> model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives
> and 3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>
> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
> the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
> country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles
> away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck
> which meant getting it out without a forklift was going to be
> interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I realized that it was
> packed in the original crate from IBM!  It even had the original
> uncrating instructions stuffed into the crate...which wasn't
> particularly useful!
>
> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
> number of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
> bus-and-tag cables.
>
> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>


-- 
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From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat May  2 14:25:31 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:25:31 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>

Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in touch!

Mike
On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000 model
> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9 GB
> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>
> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made the
> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the country)
> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and have
> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant getting
> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I
> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
>
> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number
> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag bus-and-tag
> cables.
>
> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  2 14:25:17 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:25:17 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <55452347.1050603@wulfman.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <55452347.1050603@wulfman.com>
Message-ID: <5545249D.2030308@shiresoft.com>

Surprisingly little.  ;-)  However, given that they don't support the 
64-bit mode, IBM was pretty
aggressive about moving people to the new z series so the value of these 
systems dropped
pretty quickly.

TTFN - Guy

On 5/2/15 12:19 PM, wulfman wrote:
> what did you pay for a new machine ?
>
>
> On 5/2/2015 12:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
>> model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives
>> and 3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>>
>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
>> the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
>> country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles
>> away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck
>> which meant getting it out without a forklift was going to be
>> interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I realized that it was
>> packed in the original crate from IBM!  It even had the original
>> uncrating instructions stuffed into the crate...which wasn't
>> particularly useful!
>>
>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
>> number of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
>> bus-and-tag cables.
>>
>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>>
>> TTFN - Guy
>>
>>
>


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  2 14:28:31 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:28:31 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>

Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out 
West.  I had intended
for this one as spares.

Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's 
on them (yet).

TTFN - Guy


On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in touch!
>
> Mike
> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>
>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000 model
>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9 GB
>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>>
>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made the
>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the country)
>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and have
>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant getting
>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I
>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
>>
>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number
>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag bus-and-tag
>> cables.
>>
>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>>
>> TTFN - Guy
>>
>>


From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat May  2 14:37:13 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:37:13 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
you'll need it!

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out
> West.  I had intended
> for this one as spares.
>
> Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's on
> them (yet).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
>
> On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
>> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
>> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
>> touch!
>>
>> Mike
>> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
>>> model
>>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9 GB
>>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>>>
>>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
>>> the
>>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
>>> country)
>>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and have
>>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
>>> getting
>>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I
>>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
>>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
>>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
>>>
>>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number
>>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag bus-and-tag
>>> cables.
>>>
>>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>>>
>>> TTFN - Guy
>>>
>>>
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  2 14:40:57 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 12:40:57 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55452849.7040003@shiresoft.com>

According to the seller, this was running 3 years ago.  We'll see! ;-)

I'm hoping things go well especially since it came in its original IBM 
shipping crate!

Yes, I know it's a custom SBC running OS/2.  I'm crossing my fingers and 
hope
that it just works (yea, I know I'm an optimist!).

TTFN - Guy


On 5/2/15 12:37 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
> 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
> IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
> I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
> running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
> you'll need it!
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out
>> West.  I had intended
>> for this one as spares.
>>
>> Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's on
>> them (yet).
>>
>> TTFN - Guy
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
>>> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
>>> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
>>> touch!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
>>>> model
>>>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9 GB
>>>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>>>>
>>>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
>>>> the
>>>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
>>>> country)
>>>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and have
>>>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
>>>> getting
>>>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I
>>>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
>>>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
>>>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
>>>>
>>>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number
>>>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag bus-and-tag
>>>> cables.
>>>>
>>>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>>>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>>>>
>>>> TTFN - Guy
>>>>
>>>>
>
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May  2 14:49:58 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:49:58 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12692729-01F2-4272-B022-B2051A60D7B3@comcast.net>


> On May 2, 2015, at 3:37 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
> 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
> IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
> I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
> running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
> you'll need it!

Is that any worse than the VAXen with their PRO console controllers?

	paul



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat May  2 15:57:53 2015
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 13:57:53 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <8F7DC00A-B415-4488-8FA7-934CBAFDB276@shiresoft.com>


> On May 2, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> 
> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000 model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
> 
> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant getting it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
> 
> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a number of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag bus-and-tag cables.
> 
> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
> 

I just uploaded some pictures to my site at: http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/IBM_Mainframe.html <http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/IBM_Mainframe.html>.

TTFN - Guy


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May  2 16:26:12 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:12 -0700
Subject: Texas Instruments CC-40 won't boot
Message-ID: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>

Picked up a TI CC-40 and it?s much smaller than I expected. I thought it was going to be the same size as a TRS-80 Model 100. I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started on Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM

As soon as I got it I popped in some batteries and turned it on, and I was able to enter a one line BASIC program and run it. Then I pushed the OFF key and since then it won?t boot up at all, it just gives me half a screen of black squares. Thinking maybe I had put partially dead batteries in it, I replaced them with fresh ones and same thing. I also pulled the batteries and tried powering it up from the DC input jack, still no go. When it?s stuck like this the OFF key doesn?t do anything and neither does the little reset button next to the spacebar.

I?ve looked around for a service manual and haven?t turned up anything. Did my RAM chips go bad? Did the ROM go bad?

Here?s a pic of the CC-40 and an M100 next to it for scale:

    http://imgur.com/a/Irsev

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Sat May  2 18:21:59 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 16:21:59 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <8F7DC00A-B415-4488-8FA7-934CBAFDB276@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <8F7DC00A-B415-4488-8FA7-934CBAFDB276@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <20150502162159.704cd11a@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Sat, 2 May 2015 13:57:53 -0700
Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> 
> > On May 2, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise
> > 3000 model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB
> > drives and 3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my
> > website soon.
> > 
> > Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't
> > made the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out
> > in the country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about
> > 60 miles away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my
> > pickup truck which meant getting it out without a forklift was
> > going to be interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I
> > realized that it was packed in the original crate from IBM!  It
> > even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
> > crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
> > 
> > Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
> > number of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the
> > bag bus-and-tag cables.
> > 
> > It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there
> > because I have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and
> > mouse.
> > 
> 
> I just uploaded some pictures to my site at:
> http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/IBM_Mainframe.html
> <http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/IBM_Mainframe.html>.

It looks terrific! Hope it runs as well as it looks :)

How did you manage to get it out of your truck w/o a fork lift???

Lyle
--- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Sat May  2 14:57:54 2015
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 15:57:54 -0400
Subject: Visual Basic Question
In-Reply-To: <05fc01d07c71$3e78b0b0$bb6a1210$@gmail.com>
References: <55365C45.4040009@verizon.net>
 <009001d07c52$a4e6dc60$eeb49520$@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1504211055230.24822@deltasoft.com>
 <05fc01d07c71$3e78b0b0$bb6a1210$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55452C42.8050306@verizon.net>

On 4/21/2015 4:25 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
>> Sent: 21 April 2015 18:56
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
>> Subject: RE: Visual Basic Question
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>
>>> The phrase "standard Windows 16bit DLLs" means Windows 3.1 DLLs. Such
>>> DLL's no longer work in a modern windows. If they directly access the
>>> hardware then they will not work on any NT based windows such as
>>> Windows/2000, Windows/XP, Vista, or 7, 8 or 9. Nor will they work on
>>> any 64-Bit windows full stop. 64-Bit windows does not support 16-bit
> code.
>>> If you have a Windows/95, 98 or ME environment then the code may work.
>> They should work with 32 bit versions of windows as the 16 bit thunking
> layer is
>> still present.  YMMV of course.
> What I said was:-
>
> " If they directly access the hardware then they will not work on any NT
> based windows such as..."
>
> As they are interfacing to external hardware I assume they access the
> hardware directly...
>
An update on this software/hardware adventure:

I have not got a 16 bit capable version of VB4 so I have not started 
that yet.  The thunking advice is quite relevant since the driver talks 
directly to the ISA card.

I am using Visual C++ v1.52 and I am able to write and compile and debug 
a short piece of code that calls the 16 bit DLL.  There is a conflict in 
the calling argument list though,
the manual and the include file Cproto.h say that the directory string 
is passed as a 'far pointer', however Visual C++ says it must be a near 
pointer.  When I run the code
and step thru it using the debugger the first call to acq_open returns a 
code integer that indicates one of the passed parameters is wrong, don't 
know which one.

I am running under win98se and a companion executable, winvect.exe, is 
provided to test the DLL out.  It works just fine.  I run it from a 
MS-DOS window and when it
starts it opens up a window with graphics and plots the data coming from 
the spectrometer.

I used a utility, scanbin.exe, to tell me what the exe and dll files 
were and it indicates the C++ and winvect.exe are both 'Windows 
executables 16 bit'.

The ISA acquisition card uses DMA is this incompatible inside the debugger?

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May  2 14:36:39 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:36:39 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <5545249D.2030308@shiresoft.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <55452347.1050603@wulfman.com> <5545249D.2030308@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVGf6g8ywyxB84p-MSyzKAmfB_s0XsTP3xBOwBZctSKDg@mail.gmail.com>

What a great score, and it sounds like practically new in crate as well!
Congratulations and enjoy! Someone with a complete system made a series of
Youtube videos of the entire IPL sequence and I have watched them many
times to great enjoyment ... For me, it will just have to be Hercules doing
the job, for now ... :O Looking forward to pictures!

Best,

Sean


On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:

> Surprisingly little.  ;-)  However, given that they don't support the
> 64-bit mode, IBM was pretty
> aggressive about moving people to the new z series so the value of these
> systems dropped
> pretty quickly.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
> On 5/2/15 12:19 PM, wulfman wrote:
>
>> what did you pay for a new machine ?
>>
>>
>> On 5/2/2015 12:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>>
>>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
>>> model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives
>>> and 3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>>>
>>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
>>> the drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
>>> country) so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles
>>> away) and have them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck
>>> which meant getting it out without a forklift was going to be
>>> interesting!  It wasn't until I got home that I realized that it was
>>> packed in the original crate from IBM!  It even had the original
>>> uncrating instructions stuffed into the crate...which wasn't
>>> particularly useful!
>>>
>>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
>>> number of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
>>> bus-and-tag cables.
>>>
>>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>>>
>>> TTFN - Guy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May  2 14:41:15 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:41:15 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, the fellow in the video shows that; it looks like the system is
totally dependent on the OS/2 based front-end processor. I wonder if he is
a list member? Maybe he can help out if you are missing software; I don't
know if you have ever seen the videos on Youtube; they are pretty easy to
find.

Best,

Sean


On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
> 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
> IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
> I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
> running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
> you'll need it!
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> > Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out
> > West.  I had intended
> > for this one as spares.
> >
> > Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's on
> > them (yet).
> >
> > TTFN - Guy
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> >>
> >> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
> >> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
> >> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
> >> touch!
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
> >>> model
> >>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3 9
> GB
> >>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
> >>>
> >>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
> >>> the
> >>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
> >>> country)
> >>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and
> have
> >>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
> >>> getting
> >>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't
> until I
> >>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
> >>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
> >>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
> >>>
> >>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
> number
> >>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
> bus-and-tag
> >>> cables.
> >>>
> >>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
> >>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
> >>>
> >>> TTFN - Guy
> >>>
> >>>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May  2 14:44:16 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:44:16 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVkFVyQ6tszjvXAqb6fQW6zqOU9vwaY+YfVHjSbxupYVA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, let me not hand-wave and just give a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A

Best,

Sean


On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Yeah, the fellow in the video shows that; it looks like the system is
> totally dependent on the OS/2 based front-end processor. I wonder if he is
> a list member? Maybe he can help out if you are missing software; I don't
> know if you have ever seen the videos on Youtube; they are pretty easy to
> find.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
>> 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
>> IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
>> I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
>> running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
>> you'll need it!
>>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> > Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out
>> > West.  I had intended
>> > for this one as spares.
>> >
>> > Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's
>> on
>> > them (yet).
>> >
>> > TTFN - Guy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself! I
>> >> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I do
>> >> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
>> >> touch!
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
>> >>> model
>> >>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3
>> 9 GB
>> >>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
>> >>>
>> >>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't made
>> >>> the
>> >>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
>> >>> country)
>> >>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and
>> have
>> >>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
>> >>> getting
>> >>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't
>> until I
>> >>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate from
>> >>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into the
>> >>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
>> >>>
>> >>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
>> number
>> >>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
>> bus-and-tag
>> >>> cables.
>> >>>
>> >>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because I
>> >>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
>> >>>
>> >>> TTFN - Guy
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://www.corestore.org
>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May  2 14:59:46 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:59:46 -0400
Subject: Where's a good place to list stuff?
In-Reply-To: <20150502160943.2C44C18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150502160943.2C44C18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWHxURjaDm6bKZEyk2_0HKbkafMOzkfAfNHPG9T9zGbVw@mail.gmail.com>

It can happen ... I found a DEUNA for $37 last summer including the
interconnecting cables between the two boards :O

Some of it is just getting lucky, some of it is putting the time in just
browsing the categories, being creative with searches. . Definitely not a
regular thing ... but at least a few times a year still, I feel like I made
out good on eBay.

Best,

Sean


On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Todd Goodman
>
>     > There aren't many deals to be found on eBay anymore (IMNSHO anyway)
> for
>     > vintage computer gear. Test equipment is a different story.
>
> Well, it still does happen occasionally. Someone (no idea who) recently
> got a
> really nice BA11-S for only $80 (admittedly, in part because I was confused
> about the closing time, and missed that auction :-). Although I guess
> "occasionally" is pretty much the same as "not many", so I guess you're
> right.
>
> If people are willing to buy lots (i.e. N things in a group), you can also
> get good deals. E.g. I know of recent lot that included 4 11/73 CPU cards;
> it
> turned out that although only one worked straight off, the J11 chips on the
> other three were all good - and the whole lot (including a bunch of other
> boards, all working) was only like $250.
>
>         Noel
>

From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com  Sat May  2 12:49:52 2015
From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (SilverCreekValley)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 18:49:52 +0100
Subject: Multibus extenders?
Message-ID: <D16ACCD0.445E%silvercreekvalley@yahoo.com>

Hi 

I?m trying to find a multibus extender card. I?ve seen a few for sale new,
but they are a bit too pricey for me.

Anyone know a good source or have an old extender for sale?

Thanks.



From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Sat May  2 18:52:43 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 19:52:43 -0400
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbP1_9qngoBNcWWG1iQbkob0ahDxQovHZ3NBE8YAxbfXEw@mail.gmail.com>

That would be me :-)

That's a very rare beast in the video: an Application Starterpak 3000, AKA
the 'Warthog'. That's a real mainframe, basically a Multiprise 2000 in a
half-height rack. But yes, they all rely on OS/2.

Mike
On 2 May 2015 7:49 pm, "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Yeah, the fellow in the video shows that; it looks like the system is
> totally dependent on the OS/2 based front-end processor. I wonder if he is
> a list member? Maybe he can help out if you are missing software; I don't
> know if you have ever seen the videos on Youtube; they are pretty easy to
> find.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
> > 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
> > IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
> > I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
> > running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
> > you'll need it!
> >
> > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> > > Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip out
> > > West.  I had intended
> > > for this one as spares.
> > >
> > > Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's
> on
> > > them (yet).
> > >
> > > TTFN - Guy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that myself!
> I
> > >> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I
> do
> > >> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
> > >> touch!
> > >>
> > >> Mike
> > >> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
> > >>> model
> > >>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3
> 9
> > GB
> > >>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
> > >>>
> > >>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't
> made
> > >>> the
> > >>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
> > >>> country)
> > >>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and
> > have
> > >>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
> > >>> getting
> > >>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't
> > until I
> > >>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate
> from
> > >>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into
> the
> > >>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
> > >>>
> > >>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
> > number
> > >>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
> > bus-and-tag
> > >>> cables.
> > >>>
> > >>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there because
> I
> > >>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
> > >>>
> > >>> TTFN - Guy
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://www.corestore.org
> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May  2 19:13:33 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 17:13:33 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40 won't
 boot
In-Reply-To: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-02, at 2:26 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:

>  I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started on Wikipedia.
> 
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM



You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)

The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May  2 19:18:52 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 17:18:52 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
In-Reply-To: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <C66FC71E-C9C0-443D-8B8F-58A38BA5A1BA@fozztexx.com>


On May 2, 2015, at 5:13 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
> 
> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.

Please add! It?s on Wikipedia so that other people can fill in details and make corrections.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Sat May  2 19:24:23 2015
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 17:24:23 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <55456AB7.502@sbcglobal.net>

On 5/2/2015 5:13 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-May-02, at 2:26 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
>>   I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started on Wikipedia.
>>
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
>
>
> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
>
> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.
>
>
  Also the IBM 5100 and 5110 desktop computers.

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May  2 19:30:30 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 19:30:30 -0500
Subject: those moments when out urban exploring and i wana scream
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20nNzW86GC+Q9BTHd5i0=U=_OD98fdYHEMxOyhS=JD=kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs22OCe1TZeuskp6SZKMp_z2DXrWNy=yhyg+BZu5CgctnEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <31B4064A-2DCC-42E5-A2AD-7E06AFBDC04B@mactec.com.au>
 <CAA3rs20D9cT89tCheZnxNcSdg_fKVib39PiUL7bshb0SoGAP7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21TkF3aJ=jE04kpH5Y6fC6MHu5fp3-y4Vf1FMZnmZqK-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23iX4Mc1gAykj-i+REOHKDj7JVGFsHQEdO8bTREDpssrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <551C0B76-6D43-4B4C-8A4D-0D723595CCBE@mactec.com.au>
 <CAA3rs20nNzW86GC+Q9BTHd5i0=U=_OD98fdYHEMxOyhS=JD=kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21-nq3Wn9+43+zq2caDXBk01+OCVudmGJYf_FeLbVMOpQ@mail.gmail.com>

update

so ive begun to do somthing with the smashed bits. so now i begin
experimenting with ideas for a sculpture but yea thought i would share

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/17347988901/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/17348278385/

ps i have a different plan for the switches ill post more when i get to
that stage and having something to show

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May  2 19:47:57 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 17:47:57 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
In-Reply-To: <C66FC71E-C9C0-443D-8B8F-58A38BA5A1BA@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <C66FC71E-C9C0-443D-8B8F-58A38BA5A1BA@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <543CC551-C0F0-4D47-B464-4C1C365E8664@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-02, at 5:18 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
> 
> On May 2, 2015, at 5:13 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
>> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
>> 
>> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.
> 
> Please add! It?s on Wikipedia so that other people can fill in details and make corrections.


Oh, right, I suppose.. but then I'd have to go and register with wikipedia and learn their entry system or jump through whatever hoops or what have you.

If I may offer an excuse you might appreciate, I'm busy reading the assembler source for the 1970 HP 21xx BASIC to track down a couple of issues with it.

If I may suggest, a column in the table for year of introduction might be added.

Correcting myself: The Wang 2200 (1973).
See Jim Battle's pages:
	http://www.wang2200.org/



From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May  2 20:01:27 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 18:01:27 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
In-Reply-To: <543CC551-C0F0-4D47-B464-4C1C365E8664@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <C66FC71E-C9C0-443D-8B8F-58A38BA5A1BA@fozztexx.com>
 <543CC551-C0F0-4D47-B464-4C1C365E8664@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A31FD842-8981-4DFC-B03B-C0199C7C6C07@fozztexx.com>

On May 2, 2015, at 5:47 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> Oh, right, I suppose.. but then I'd have to go and register with wikipedia and learn their entry system or jump through whatever hoops or what have you.

You don?t need to register an account to edit. But yah, editing tables is somewhat clunky. I started out making the table in a Google spreadsheet doc and it was definitely much easier to work on.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From lists at loomcom.com  Sat May  2 21:17:32 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 21:17:32 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
Message-ID: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>

Hi folks,

I was recently given a load of QBUS stuff, and among the cards is a TD
Systems TDL-11. I can't find a scrap of information about it anywhere.

I have reason to believe it's a SCSI controller that emulates RL01
drives, based on its similarity to the TDL-12, which is documented
online here:
https://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/td-systems/tdl-12

Since I can't find a manual for it, I have absolutely no idea how to
set its jumpers or activate its diagnostic monitor (if there even is
one). Just to see if it would work, I tried following the instructions
to get into the TDL-12's monitor, but they don't work on the TDL-11.

Has anyone seen this card in the wild, or can anyone point me at
a manual for it?

A poor photo of my card is here, for reference (200K):

http://www.loomcom.com/junk/tdl11.jpg

Best Wishes,

-Seth


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat May  2 21:41:02 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 19:41:02 -0700
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>

On May 2, 2015 7:17 PM, "Seth Morabito" <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I was recently given a load of QBUS stuff, and among the cards is a TD
> Systems TDL-11. I can't find a scrap of information about it anywhere.
>
> I have reason to believe it's a SCSI controller that emulates RL01
> drives, based on its similarity to the TDL-12, which is documented
> online here:
> https://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/td-systems/tdl-12
>

Do you have access to an EPROM programmer? Before someone turned up the
manual for the TDL-12 I found enough clues to figure out how to start the
onboard DMON configuration utility be examining the contents of the EPROM.
A dump of the EPROM should also show whether or not there is even an
onboard configuration utility.

Are the major ICs a Z-80 CPU, plus a couple of 8255s instead of a more
typical NCR 5380 SCSI controller?

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May  2 23:28:25 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 22:28:25 -0600
Subject: 8257 use in Intel MDS IOC
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR5Grxh-NksrjxO_o_fxRE4tQ9kDQ_wAekHmmQMwh1txA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm reverse-engineering the firmware of the IOC board of an Intel MDS
Series II (with the iMDX 511 IOC firmware enhancement kit, so it's the
same as early MDS Series III firmware, but possibly not 100% identical
to firmware of the later MDS Series III using the IOC-III).

The IOC uses an 8257 DMA controller, which was the predecessor of the
8237 as used in PCs. While it is mostly pin-compatible, the 8257
register map is a subset of nor compatible with the 8237. Not a
problem since the 8257 datasheet is readily available.

Except...

The 8257 mode register (output) and status register (input) are
register number 0x8 of 16. The data sheet says that A3 should be 1 and
A2..A0 should be zero to access those registers, as expected, and does
not document what (if anything) registers 0x9 through 0xf do. It's
possible that they simply mirror register 0x8.

In the MDS, the 8257 is I/O ports 0xf0 through 0xff, so mode and
status should be at 0xf8, and indeed sometimes the firmware references
those. However, the firmware also inputs from 0xfd, and writes to
registers 0xfb, 0xfc, and 0xff.  The values read and written don't
seem to me to completely make sense if I make the assumption that they
are mirrors of 0xf8, and I can't imagine why the firmware author would
have used 0xf8 in some places and other port addresses in other places
if in fact they are functionally the same.

Intel published the source code of the ROMs for the MDS main processor
(8080 or 8085), but I've never seen source code for the IOC firmware.

Update as I was writing this up:

I just spotted a comment in the MESS driver by fulivi stating that
port 0xfd reads as 0xff and is used to detect whether the chip is an
8237 or 8257. If so, perhaps the 8257 either ignores input requests
from 0xf9 through 0xff, leaving the bus tri-state, or possibly it
actually drives 0xff, and perhaps it ignores writes to 0xf9 through
0xff. I'll have to go back through the disassembly and study what that
would do; it didn't seem like just the writes to 0xf8 made sense, but
the other writes may have confused me.

Has anyone actually seen a Series II or Series III with an 8237 on the
IOC board? Perhaps the IOC-III uses the 8237?

Eric

From lists at loomcom.com  Sun May  3 00:41:55 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 00:41:55 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>

* On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 07:41:02PM -0700, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have access to an EPROM programmer? Before someone turned up the
> manual for the TDL-12 I found enough clues to figure out how to start the
> onboard DMON configuration utility be examining the contents of the EPROM.
> A dump of the EPROM should also show whether or not there is even an
> onboard configuration utility.

A great idea, and yes I do. I've made dumps of the ROM (an Intel 2764)
here:

http://www.loomcom.com/retrocomputing/pdp11/tdl11/

The ROM is simply labelled "IAX 3.2". I ran `strings` on it and it
confirms there is some kind of utility intended for SCSI, and there
appears to be RL01 and RL02 support, so maybe it's more like the
TDL-12 than I thought it was!

> Are the major ICs a Z-80 CPU, plus a couple of 8255s instead of a more
> typical NCR 5380 SCSI controller?

That's exactly right, yes.

-Seth

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun May  3 02:00:51 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 00:00:51 -0700
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> A great idea, and yes I do. I've made dumps of the ROM (an Intel 2764)
> here:
>
> http://www.loomcom.com/retrocomputing/pdp11/tdl11/
>
> The ROM is simply labelled "IAX 3.2". I ran `strings` on it and it
> confirms there is some kind of utility intended for SCSI, and there
> appears to be RL01 and RL02 support, so maybe it's more like the
> TDL-12 than I thought it was!
>

>From a very quick look at the TDL-11 firmware dump I can see some
similarities to the TDL-12 firmware. In particular I can see some
binary data that would be DMA'd into the PDP-11 host memory that would
be executed as the host side communication channel to the TDL-11 on
board configuration utility.

I would have to spend more time disassembling the firmware to try to
figure out what triggers it to DMA that code into the PDP-11 host
memory and then start the execution of the configuration utility.

From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com  Sun May  3 04:20:38 2015
From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 09:20:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Multibus extender
Message-ID: <1143329902.588027.1430644838572.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi
Does anyone have or no where to get a cheapish multibus extender card?
I've seen a few new extenders for sale but they are quite pricey.
Cheers


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun May  3 07:03:09 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  3 May 2015 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Burroughs B1900 for sale in North Carolina
Message-ID: <20150503120309.076BC18C0C3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I'm not sure what we've got, here. The machine seems to have only one
memory board in it, so, just for grins, I decided to look at the online docs
on the 1900, and see if it needed memory boards in pairs.

The doc described the model 1905 and the model 1955 - both of which have a
"diagnostic/maintainence control panel", with lights and switches, which this
machine doesn't have. Although that may not mean that much - people started
getting rid of them because they cost too much, so maybe this is a later
model, without them.

They also have a cutout in the top panel for a large keyboard (see pictures
online of these model) which again this machine doesn't have (the cutout,
that is)... It does seem to have one less CPU card than one of the models
(forget which one) in the online manuals (CPU cards only go from A-H on this
unit, not A-J), and no, there isn't a missing CPU card, i) the slots are
numbered, and ii) there's no empty slot.

I looked all over it for a model/serial number placard, which would give the
model, but NSFL, couldn't find one. :-( It does have a large red placard
panel on the front which says 1900, so I'm pretty sure it's _some_ flavour of
Burroughs 1900, but... Anyone have any idea what this thing might be, exactly?

	Noel

From rickb at bensene.com  Sun May  3 08:52:06 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 06:52:06 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDC5@mail.bensene.com>

The Wang machine was the 2200, first introduced in May of '73.   It
definitely had BASIC in ROM.
There were a number of different versions, but they were all 2200-series
machines.

For more information, see Jim Battles' http://wang2200.org, a really
great website with everything you want to know about the 2200 series,
including an emulator that runs the original ROM code.

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com


> Brent Hilpert wrote:
> 
> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full
tokenisation
> if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
> 
> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the
> model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May  3 09:56:24 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 16:56:24 +0200
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <55463718.6050803@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-03 02:13, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2015-May-02, at 2:26 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
>>   I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started on Wikipedia.
>>
>>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
>
>
>
> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
>
> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.

Fun. I saw the Luxor ABC-80 in that list. I used one back in the day. 
The basic do full tokenization, and support both integer and fp math, 
and do skip the for loop if the end value is before the start value.

While I'm at it, other Luxor computers that should also be there:
ABC-800, ABC-802 and ABC-806. They extended on the ABC-80. The basic was 
called "BASIC II", and had many of the same properties as the ABC-80 
basic. However, they could do partial tokenization as well, as they 
supported long variable names, and additional constructs not available 
in the ABC-80.
They were really good machines.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May  3 10:02:47 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:02:47 +0200
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55463718.6050803@update.uu.se>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <55463718.6050803@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55463897.60802@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-03 16:56, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-05-03 02:13, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2015-May-02, at 2:26 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>>
>>>   I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I
>>> could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started
>>> on Wikipedia.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full
>> tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
>>
>> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the
>> model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.
>
> Fun. I saw the Luxor ABC-80 in that list. I used one back in the day.
> The basic do full tokenization, and support both integer and fp math,
> and do skip the for loop if the end value is before the start value.
>
> While I'm at it, other Luxor computers that should also be there:
> ABC-800, ABC-802 and ABC-806. They extended on the ABC-80. The basic was
> called "BASIC II", and had many of the same properties as the ABC-80
> basic. However, they could do partial tokenization as well, as they
> supported long variable names, and additional constructs not available
> in the ABC-80.
> They were really good machines.

Ah. Forgot: they also support bitwise ops (all of them).

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May  3 10:07:49 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:07:49 +0000
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>,
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> >  I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I could update the list of computers with BASIC in 
> > ROM that I started on Wikipedia.
> >
> >    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
> 
> 
>
> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP 
> support)
> 
> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the model/series correct - others can speak to that > one better than I can.

The Exidy Sorceror had BASIC as a plug-in ROM cartridge I believe. If you are including that one, I think the
Atari 400 and 800 belong on the list too. 

Brent has mentioned the HP9830. There is also the HP9831 (==HP9825 with BASIC not HPL in ROM) and the
HP9845. I think the HP9835 has BASIC in ROM too, but I don't own one to check. Should you include the 
HP9000/200 machines (HP9816, HP9817, HP9826, HP9836, HP9920)? Although they normally boot from
disk, there was a BASIC ROM board available.

Dragon 32 and 64 (not quite TRS-80 CoCo clones). 
(and IIRC the enhancements to CoCo3 BASIC were written by Microware, not Microsoft).

Camputers Lynx (which had floating point line numbers I believe!)

Tektronix 4051, 4052, 4054 (and probably other Tektronix machines)

Research Machines RML480Z. I think there was a BASIC ROM PCB for the 380Z too, but I've
never seen it.

Grundy Newbrain A, AD, M

-tony


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 10:12:33 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:12:33 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>

On May 3, 2015, at 8:07 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The Exidy Sorceror had BASIC as a plug-in ROM cartridge I believe. If you are including that one, I think the Atari 400 and 800 belong on the list too. 

That?s what I thought, which means the Exidy does not belong. The Atari 400 & 800 were already removed for the same reason.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From leec2124 at gmail.com  Sun May  3 10:17:03 2015
From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:17:03 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkVkFVyQ6tszjvXAqb6fQW6zqOU9vwaY+YfVHjSbxupYVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkVkFVyQ6tszjvXAqb6fQW6zqOU9vwaY+YfVHjSbxupYVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG_uPVE_Cz9W2KL6JuGLk=XHu=Gpv8QYrSN4xKeLXS8RW6du7w@mail.gmail.com>

Nice video, took me back to my mainframe operator days. When I make a video
I try to adhere to three rules that greatly increase the quality and
effectiveness:

1. Use a tripod - I use a couple of cell phone cameras and have tripods to
hold them steady and keep them on-shot
2. Make sure you have adequate lighting - nothing worse than "here is this
and that", but we just see black
3. Have a script - I write down what I want to show, sequence, and block
and time the shots. For example, when something appears on the screen I
make sure it stays in a shot long enough for the viewer to read.

Lee C.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Sorry, let me not hand-wave and just give a link:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMgyrZm87A
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, the fellow in the video shows that; it looks like the system is
> > totally dependent on the OS/2 based front-end processor. I wonder if he
> is
> > a list member? Maybe he can help out if you are missing software; I don't
> > know if you have ever seen the videos on Youtube; they are pretty easy to
> > find.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, you know they use  a custom OS/2-based front end, much like a
> >> 'real' mainframe SE/HMC? That thing is an absolute nightmare of arcane
> >> IBM complexity; that's where all my problems were, no way no how could
> >> I get the damn CPU to initialise... good luck, unless you have a
> >> running box freshly switched off (which mine was supposed to be!)
> >> you'll need it!
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>
> wrote:
> >> > Yes it was!  I'm getting another one as soon as Will makes his trip
> out
> >> > West.  I had intended
> >> > for this one as spares.
> >> >
> >> > Great!  My concern has been getting S/W for them.  I don't know what's
> >> on
> >> > them (yet).
> >> >
> >> > TTFN - Guy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 5/2/15 12:25 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh was this the one on epay last week? I nearly went for that
> myself! I
> >> >> have two (one for spares) but major issues getting it operational. I
> do
> >> >> have pretty complete docs and software, so we should probably stay in
> >> >> touch!
> >> >>
> >> >> Mike
> >> >> On 2 May 2015 3:06 pm, "Guy Sotomayor" <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000
> >> >>> model
> >> >>> 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 3
> >> 9 GB
> >> >>> drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Getting it home was interesting since the freight companies can't
> made
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> drive from the main roads to my house (curse of living out in the
> >> >>> country)
> >> >>> so I had to run down to the shipping depot (about 60 miles away) and
> >> have
> >> >>> them load up the pallet into the bed of my pickup truck which meant
> >> >>> getting
> >> >>> it out without a forklift was going to be interesting!  It wasn't
> >> until I
> >> >>> got home that I realized that it was packed in the original crate
> from
> >> >>> IBM!  It even had the original uncrating instructions stuffed into
> the
> >> >>> crate...which wasn't particularly useful!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Overall it appears to be in really good shape.  There were also a
> >> number
> >> >>> of other "goodies" in the crate including some new in the bag
> >> bus-and-tag
> >> >>> cables.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It'll be a bit before I can power it up and see what's there
> because I
> >> >>> have to find an SVGA monitor and a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> TTFN - Guy
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> http://www.corestore.org
> >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
> >>
> >
> >
>



-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May  3 10:18:03 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:18:03 +0000
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > The Exidy Sorceror had BASIC as a plug-in ROM cartridge I believe. If you are including that one, I think the Atari 
> > 400 and 800 belong on the list too.

> That?s what I thought, which means the Exidy does not belong. The Atari 400 & 800 were already removed for the 
> same reason.

In that case the HP9000/200 machines don't belong either.

However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM module was, IIRC, included with the
machine in the standard configuration (i.e. if you bought an off-the-shelf boxed version of one of those, you
got a BASIC module). Is that really any different from having the ROMs fitted to the main PCB?

The HP9831 is another grey area. It came with BASIC in ROM. But the 'system ROM' module which contained
the BASIC firmware could be unplugged from the side of the machine for upgrading. AFAIK HP never supported
anything but BASIC on these machines. You could put the HPL firmware from an HP9825 in there, it would work,
but HP never supported that, and a few keys would be labelled incorrectly. [It was more common, given the 
rarity of the HP9831 to put the HP9831's firmware into an HP9825 to be able to run BASIC on that machine, 
something that HP never supported of course]

-tony


--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May  3 10:20:04 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:20:04 +0200
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55463897.60802@update.uu.se>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <55463718.6050803@update.uu.se> <55463897.60802@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <55463CA4.7020606@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-03 17:02, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-05-03 16:56, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2015-05-03 02:13, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> On 2015-May-02, at 2:26 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>>>
>>>>   I mostly got it because I wanted to try out the BASIC on it so I
>>>> could update the list of computers with BASIC in ROM that I started
>>>> on Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FozzTexx/List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're missing the HP 9830 (which would be the first, 1972). (full
>>> tokenisation if I have your meaning correct, FP support)
>>>
>>> The Wang 2000 (mid 70s) would be another I believe, if I have the
>>> model/series correct - others can speak to that one better than I can.
>>
>> Fun. I saw the Luxor ABC-80 in that list. I used one back in the day.
>> The basic do full tokenization, and support both integer and fp math,
>> and do skip the for loop if the end value is before the start value.
>>
>> While I'm at it, other Luxor computers that should also be there:
>> ABC-800, ABC-802 and ABC-806. They extended on the ABC-80. The basic was
>> called "BASIC II", and had many of the same properties as the ABC-80
>> basic. However, they could do partial tokenization as well, as they
>> supported long variable names, and additional constructs not available
>> in the ABC-80.
>> They were really good machines.
>
> Ah. Forgot: they also support bitwise ops (all of them).

I went ahead and updated the page...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From ian at platinum.net  Sun May  3 10:23:43 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:23:43 -0700
Subject: IBM Mainframe
In-Reply-To: <CAG_uPVE_Cz9W2KL6JuGLk=XHu=Gpv8QYrSN4xKeLXS8RW6du7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <01PLH99GVE6A007EPZ@beyondthepale.ie>
 <E550D5A9-306E-4784-BFD2-E3B0469C4310@comcast.net>
 <40506593-A2D6-42E7-A1DF-4B72BFFBC96A@comcast.net>
 <9F4264CA-7DFB-4A86-B2E5-628EA2DAFF71@platinum.net>
 <55451B39.4080603@jwsss.com> <55452022.1090002@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNKQdfg79t4cx7Pj8Mmu1uXFktMm=yHNHbmTjwDDOwCjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5545255F.5070001@shiresoft.com>
 <CAPhLQbNACU6qO_ms6PotD5=NJhvk5P4Ufb4Zw0GSQajYpb+-zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUTe8ZogzS9iyPx_tzzeuWNR8cGW5th62M354FPY3-=dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkVkFVyQ6tszjvXAqb6fQW6zqOU9vwaY+YfVHjSbxupYVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG_uPVE_Cz9W2KL6JuGLk=XHu=Gpv8QYrSN4xKeLXS8RW6du7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <533FF56A-3B30-4CF0-B9E8-8FD05797750C@platinum.net>


> On May 3, 2015, at 8:17 AM, Lee Courtney <leec2124 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Nice video, took me back to my mainframe operator days. When I make a video
> I try to adhere to three rules that greatly increase the quality and
> effectiveness:
> 
> 1. Use a tripod - I use a couple of cell phone cameras and have tripods to
> hold them steady and keep them on-shot
> 2. Make sure you have adequate lighting - nothing worse than "here is this
> and that", but we just see black
> 3. Have a script - I write down what I want to show, sequence, and block
> and time the shots. For example, when something appears on the screen I
> make sure it stays in a shot long enough for the viewer to read.

And I would much rather a ?quick-and-dirty show-me-now? cell-phone video showing me what?s going on right away, rather than wait for a slick professionally-produced correctly lit video. This is this guy?s hobby, and I appreciate *any* output and would never dream of criticizing his videographer skills.

Ian


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 10:27:59 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:27:59 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>


On May 3, 2015, at 8:18 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM module was, IIRC, included with the machine in the standard configuration (i.e. if you bought an off-the-shelf boxed version of one of those, you got a BASIC module). Is that really any different from having the ROMs fitted to the main PCB?

It is different because it?s essentially external software that has to be loaded into the computer. If you start including BASIC on a cartridge because it came with the computer then you would have to include computers that included BASIC on a cassette or disk that shipped with the computer.

In many cases where the BASIC software was not on ROM it has been separated from the computer long ago. The list should only include computers that can get into BASIC without requiring any external software to be loaded.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May  3 10:33:07 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:33:07 +0000
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C251D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM module was, IIRC, included with 
> > the machine in the standard configuration (i.e. if you bought an off-the-shelf boxed version of one of those, 
> > you got a BASIC module). Is that really any different from having the ROMs fitted to the main PCB?
> 
> It is different because it?s essentially external software that has to be loaded into the computer. If you start 
> including BASIC on a cartridge because it came with the computer then you would have to include computers 
> that included BASIC on a cassette or disk that shipped with the computer.

I disagree that a plug-in ROM module is 'loaded' in the normal sense. The BASIC firmware is not copied from
the module into RAM. The ROMs in the module are directly accessed by the processor to run BASIC, just as
they are when the ROMs are on the main board of the machine.

> In many cases where the BASIC software was not on ROM it has been separated from the computer long ago. 

Does that mean you should remove machines where the BASIC ROMs were socketed, on the grounds they
could be removed?

> The list should only include computers that can get into BASIC without requiring any external software to be 
> loaded.

Incidentally, are you including handheld computers: HP71B, HP75C, HP75D, Sharp PC1211, PC1500 (and more), 
Casio (dozens of models)?

-tony

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun May  3 10:28:48 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 16:28:48 +0100
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/05/2015 16:18, tony duell wrote:
>
>>> The Exidy Sorceror had BASIC as a plug-in ROM cartridge I believe.

>> That?s what I thought, which means the Exidy does not belong.

> However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM module was, IIRC, included with the
> machine in the standard configuration

Yeah, I was about to say that.  The Sorcerer was always sold with the 
BASIC ROM PAC fitted, and to my way of thinking, that's really no 
different from a ROM plugged into the board, as it was on a Commodore 
PET or an Acorn Atom.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun May  3 10:38:17 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 16:38:17 +0100
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <554640E9.8010900@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/05/2015 16:27, Chris Osborn wrote:

> It is different because it?s essentially external software that has
> to be loaded into the computer.

Not on a Sorcerer, really.  It's part of the main memory map, and is 
there as soon as it's switched on; it's not somehow "loaded" (the way 
ROM packs are on, say, a BBC Micro) - though you can load other things.

> In many cases where the BASIC software was not on ROM it has been
> separated from the computer long ago.

I've never seen a Sorcerer that has lost its BASIC, though I've seen 
many that have additional ROM PACs.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 10:41:53 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:41:53 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C251D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C251D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <362BC959-14DC-4E72-806D-CFC297443CC5@fozztexx.com>


On May 3, 2015, at 8:33 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I disagree that a plug-in ROM module is 'loaded' in the normal sense. The BASIC firmware is not copied from the module into RAM. The ROMs in the module are directly accessed by the processor to run BASIC, just as they are when the ROMs are on the main board of the machine.

It?s not loaded in the same way as cassette or disk based software, but it *is* considered external software. It doesn?t matter what media the external software is stored on.

> Incidentally, are you including handheld computers: HP71B, HP75C, HP75D, Sharp PC1211, PC1500 (and more), Casio (dozens of models)?

They aren?t being excluded, just no-one has added them, perhaps because they can?t decide if they are ?calculators? or ?computers?.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From rickb at bensene.com  Sun May  3 10:44:25 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:44:25 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDC6@mail.bensene.com>

Chris Osborn wrote:

> In many cases where the BASIC software was not on ROM it has been
> separated from the computer long ago. The list should only include
> computers that can get into BASIC without requiring any external
software to
> be loaded.
> 

OK, so should the Tandy 600 be included on the list?
This machine had a ROM socket accessible through a compartment on the
bottom of the machine.
The machine didn't come with BASIC in its standard configuration.
A BASIC ROM could be purchased separately.  The ROM was not a cartridge
per-se, but a ROM chip with a little plastic carrier that would help
guide the chip into the socket.
When the BASIC ROM was installed, BASIC would appear as one of the apps
that the menu system built-into the machine provided.  
As such, BASIC wasn't "running" when the machine was powered up, but
BASIC was in ROM, and could easily be accessed by selecting BASIC from
the menu.  BASIC executed entirely out of ROM...it wasn't "loaded" into
RAM and executed from there.

It's my assertion that any machine that had a ROM that BASIC would
execute out of (such as Atari 400/800), then it should be included in
the list.  However, if the list specifies that only machines that
"powered up running BASIC out of *built-in* ROM", then machines like the
Tandy 600, that had a ROM with BASIC in it, but required an additional
"module", wouldn't be included.

-Rick Bensene


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 10:45:16 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:45:16 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>


On May 3, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I was about to say that.  The Sorcerer was always sold with the BASIC ROM PAC fitted, and to my way of thinking, that's really no different from a ROM plugged into the board, as it was on a Commodore PET or an Acorn Atom.

Ok I guess I should ask then was it necessary to remove the BASIC ROM PAC to load other software or cartridges? In the case of the Atari 400/800, yes, so BASIC is definitely external software. If the ROM is an extra module that would be installed in the computer and never removed in normal use, then it should probably be included on the list.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May  3 10:47:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:47:12 +0000
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <362BC959-14DC-4E72-806D-CFC297443CC5@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C251D@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <362BC959-14DC-4E72-806D-CFC297443CC5@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C253E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

[BASIC on ROM modules, supplied as standard with the machine]

> 
> It?s not loaded in the same way as cassette or disk based software, but it *is* considered external software. It 
> doesn?t matter what media the external software is stored on.

That is _your_ definition, I believe.  I would not class such a module as 'external software' since it was (a) included
with the machine and (b) appears in the main memory map, it is not copied into RAM.

I would be interested to hear whether you consider the HP9831 to have 'BASIC in ROM'. It is on a module,
always supplied with the machine, the machine does nothing without it. and nothing else was ever supported
in place of said module. In other words, to be an HP9831 that module has to be present.

> > Incidentally, are you including handheld computers: HP71B, HP75C, HP75D, Sharp PC1211, PC1500 (and more), 
> > Casio (dozens of models)?
> 
> They aren?t being excluded, just no-one has added them, perhaps because they can?t decide if they are 
> ?calculators? or ?computers?.

OK, so you are accepting those.

-tony

From ian at platinum.net  Sun May  3 10:50:50 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:50:50 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <120B4D34-C5F3-4865-851E-5F6BF80F7FD9@platinum.net>


> On May 3, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
> 
> On 03/05/2015 16:18, tony duell wrote:
>> 
>>>> The Exidy Sorceror had BASIC as a plug-in ROM cartridge I believe.
> 
>>> That?s what I thought, which means the Exidy does not belong.
> 
>> However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM module was, IIRC, included with the
>> machine in the standard configuration
> 
> Yeah, I was about to say that.  The Sorcerer was always sold with the BASIC ROM PAC fitted, and to my way of thinking, that's really no different from a ROM plugged into the board, as it was on a Commodore PET or an Acorn Atom.

As a data point, my parents purchased an Atari 400 for me in the UK when they first became available.  It did *not* come with the Basic cartridge, which wasn?t available in the UK for about 2 months after the 400 came out.  So, for at least a short period of time, in at least one market, there was an Atari configuration where Basic wasn?t ?standard configuration?.  But I sure had a fun 2 months playing Star Raiders :)

Ian


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun May  3 11:01:36 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:01:36 +0100
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
 <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/05/2015 16:45, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
> On May 3, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I was about to say that.  The Sorcerer was always sold with
>> the BASIC ROM PAC fitted, and to my way of thinking, that's really
>> no different from a ROM plugged into the board, as it was on a
>> Commodore PET or an Acorn Atom.
>
> Ok I guess I should ask then was it necessary to remove the BASIC ROM
> PAC to load other software or cartridges?

It wouldn't be removed in normal use, and there was plenty of software 
(not written in BASIC) that could be loaded without removing the ROM 
PAC.  However, anything in another PAC would require the removal of the 
BASIC PAC, because there is only one slot.

Three items I know of came as replacement ROM PACs: the DEV PAC (Exidy's 
assembler and editor - but there were others that just loaded from 
disk/cassette), the WP PAC (word processor, but again there were others) 
and firmware for one of the non-Exidy disk interfaces (most used only 
the S100 expansion bus but one also used a PAC for its bootstrap rather 
than putting that on the expansion bus).

There was also an EPROM PAC from a third party, so users could create 
their own PACs.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 11:02:24 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 09:02:24 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDC6@mail.bensene.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <08B94599-4562-4D1B-8605-F35E80B34F6F@fozztexx.com>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDC6@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <033D882F-848B-471D-B3C3-C2134383C2C7@fozztexx.com>


On May 3, 2015, at 8:44 AM, Rick Bensene <rickb at bensene.com> wrote:

> OK, so should the Tandy 600 be included on the list? This machine had a ROM socket accessible through a compartment on the bottom of the machine. The machine didn't come with BASIC in its standard configuration.

Definitely not. If it didn?t even include BASIC as standard then it doesn?t really fit.

> However, if the list specifies that only machines that "powered up running BASIC 


Perhaps I need to find a better way to name the list. The computer doesn?t necessarily need to boot into BASIC, as long as BASIC was available as standard without having to swap software cartridges or load from external media.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May  3 11:10:40 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 09:10:40 -0700
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
 <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
 <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <0E10F3A4-DD46-4A73-9A20-70D4564A94C5@fozztexx.com>


On May 3, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:

> It wouldn't be removed in normal use, and there was plenty of software (not written in BASIC) that could be loaded without removing the ROM PAC.  However, anything in another PAC would require the removal of the BASIC PAC, because there is only one slot.

Is it in a cartridge that can easily be removed by the user, or is it installed somewhat permanently and would require opening the case or a special access panel?

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun May  3 11:18:36 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:18:36 +0100
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <0E10F3A4-DD46-4A73-9A20-70D4564A94C5@fozztexx.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
 <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
 <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>
 <0E10F3A4-DD46-4A73-9A20-70D4564A94C5@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <55464A5C.6080406@dunnington.plus.com>

On 03/05/2015 17:10, Chris Osborn wrote:
> On May 3, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It wouldn't be removed in normal use

> Is it in a cartridge that can easily be removed by the user

It can be very easily removed by a user, without any tools.  As can the 
BASIC ROM in a UK101 :-)  I don't think that's the point, though.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun May  3 11:50:32 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 11:50:32 -0500
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
Message-ID: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>



The PROM battery appears to have died in my Sun U1 (Ethernet address and 
host ID all ff's etc.).

I can hack a new battery into it at some point - but can anyone confirm 
whether the openboot environment should be responsive even while the 
battery is hosed? Via a serial console, I can send a break and get an OK 
prompt back, but then it appears to go unresponsive and won't accept 
commands (no key presses aren't echoed back to the screen).

Using the same terminal emulator / cabling is fine with my other Sun (a 
U2), so I'm reasonably confident that the environment is OK, and that the 
problem is local to the U1 machine.

cheers

Jules




From bob099 at centurytel.net  Sun May  3 12:42:31 2015
From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 12:42:31 -0500
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
Message-ID: <55465E07.4080309@centurytel.net>

The TI-74 BasiCalc, successor to the CC-40

-- 
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel
I Timothy 5:8


From ats at offog.org  Sun May  3 13:49:00 2015
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 19:49:00 +0100
Subject: Texas Instruments CC-40 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com> (Chris
 Osborn's message of "Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:12 -0700")
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <y2aegmxzecj.fsf@cartman.at.offog.org>

Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> writes:

> ... List_of_Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM

The Sinclair ZX80 and Sinclair QL.

The Oric 1 and Oric Atmos.

The Dragon 32 and Dragon 64.

The Ohio Scientific Superboard II and Compukit UK101.

The Elektronica BK-0010 and variants. (There are also dozens of
Soviet-era Spectrum clones that used Sinclair BASIC...)

The Multitech MPF-1B -- especially cute because it does BASIC on a set
of 7-segment displays. (Multitech are now Acer, and Flite Electronics
apparently still sell the MPF-1/1B.)

I assume you're limiting this to "classic" computers, and not modern
devices like the Maximite...

Cheers,

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>

From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Sun May  3 14:27:57 2015
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:27:57 -0400
Subject: Sun SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
Message-ID: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>

Hi Guys,

I obtained a Sun SparcStation 4 at the CoCoFEST for which I need some
information on the proper hook up of the cables.  The SCSI cables I can
guess, but the PS/2 cables I'm not so sure of.  There is one PS/2 connector
on the back of the Monitor labeled A/B and on the SparcStstion itself is a
DB25 pin connector labeled Serial A/B.  Do these connect together?  One PS/2
connector exists on the Sparcstation so how does both the PS/2 connector on
the Keyboard and the mouse connect to the SparcStation?  

Also I understand that it is password protected so I need the "Super-secret"
procedure to remove the password.  I was told this is possible.  

Documentation in any form is quite necessary as well.  Any leads as to where
to obtain these as well?  I haven't looked at sun.com yet, but I most
certainly will.  Your help is most appreciated.  Thank you in advance for
any help you can give.  Take care my friends.

 

Kip Koon

 <mailto:computerdoc at sc.rr.com> computerdoc at sc.rr.com

 <http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon>
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon

 

 


From jon at jonworld.com  Sun May  3 14:36:35 2015
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 21:36:35 +0200
Subject: Sun SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2XXBAJ+XkXm6QVzSiEv0_H60M8zSenjukKVAU2eYzWXg@mail.gmail.com>

Hold your horses :) We'll get you squared away.

Suns of that era use a proprietary keyboard connection; nothing is PS/2.
You plug the mouse into the keyboard and then the keyboard into the system.
Older Type4 keyboards will work but you want a Type5.

The DB25 labelled A/B is a serial port with ports A & B (ttya, ttyb)
combined. Sun would sell a splitter cable. Standard cabling will give you
access to the "A" port. With no keyboard and monitor hooked up, using a
serial cable with null modem (9600-8-n-1) you should be able to get onto
the console of the system and see how it is set up.

Look at the website below, and scroll down, and you'll get some diagrams
and photos of how the back of a Sparc4 will look and what the ports will do.

http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/sun/index.htm

The monitor should hook up via 13w3, but without a keyboard you're not
doing much of anything. On boot the Sun will search for a keyboard. If
there is none there it will change its default input/output to the serial
port (ttya which we talked about before.)

Any PS/2-style hookup on the back of a monitor may be for 3D glasses or
similar, but I'm not familiar with those setups on Sun systems.

What's the model number of the monitor? Did you get a keyboard at all?

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 9:27 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I obtained a Sun SparcStation 4 at the CoCoFEST for which I need some
> information on the proper hook up of the cables.  The SCSI cables I can
> guess, but the PS/2 cables I'm not so sure of.  There is one PS/2 connector
> on the back of the Monitor labeled A/B and on the SparcStstion itself is a
> DB25 pin connector labeled Serial A/B.  Do these connect together?  One
> PS/2
> connector exists on the Sparcstation so how does both the PS/2 connector on
> the Keyboard and the mouse connect to the SparcStation?
>
> Also I understand that it is password protected so I need the
> "Super-secret"
> procedure to remove the password.  I was told this is possible.
>
> Documentation in any form is quite necessary as well.  Any leads as to
> where
> to obtain these as well?  I haven't looked at sun.com yet, but I most
> certainly will.  Your help is most appreciated.  Thank you in advance for
> any help you can give.  Take care my friends.
>
>
>
> Kip Koon
>
>  <mailto:computerdoc at sc.rr.com> computerdoc at sc.rr.com
>
>  <http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon>
> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
-Jon
+32 0 486 260 686

From lists at loomcom.com  Sun May  3 15:24:00 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:24:00 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150503202400.GA1124@loomcom.com>

* On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 12:00:51AM -0700, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> From a very quick look at the TDL-11 firmware dump I can see some
> similarities to the TDL-12 firmware. In particular I can see some
> binary data that would be DMA'd into the PDP-11 host memory that would
> be executed as the host side communication channel to the TDL-11 on
> board configuration utility.
> 
> I would have to spend more time disassembling the firmware to try to
> figure out what triggers it to DMA that code into the PDP-11 host
> memory and then start the execution of the configuration utility.

I disassembled the binary image with z80dasm, but my Z80-fu is very
weak. If it were a 6502 or a WE32100 I'd have it figured out by now!

Nevertheless, I'll keep at it and see if I can get anything out of it.

-Seth

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun May  3 15:33:01 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:33:01 -0500
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <55464A5C.6080406@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
 <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
 <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>
 <0E10F3A4-DD46-4A73-9A20-70D4564A94C5@fozztexx.com>
 <55464A5C.6080406@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd7gQQa_uVOBKqx7jCfp7yoNB=YkANMBAu0zzt_AHfOEMA@mail.gmail.com>

Do the tandy Model 100 / 102 / 200 machines qualify? They all have MS Basic
in ROM - in fact, I think BG may have done that coding..?

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
wrote:

> On 03/05/2015 17:10, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
>> On May 3, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  It wouldn't be removed in normal use
>>>
>>
>  Is it in a cartridge that can easily be removed by the user
>>
>
> It can be very easily removed by a user, without any tools.  As can the
> BASIC ROM in a UK101 :-)  I don't think that's the point, though.
>
> --
> Pete
>
> Pete Turnbull
>

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun May  3 15:46:45 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:46:45 -0500
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>

(Still in SBC mode..)

I'm feeling a need for one of the Heathkit ETA-3400 memory & I/O expansion
units for my ET-3400.. or at least a set of documentation such as could be
used to build one of my own.

Anybody have an ETA-3400 they'd be willing to part with..? A set of docs in
PDF?

As it sits, all I've got here is a copy of the ET-3400 'Modification
Manual' which details the changes which must be made to the ET so it will
connect to the ETA module.

Thanks for any assistance..

From lists at loomcom.com  Sun May  3 15:49:59 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:49:59 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>

* On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 12:00:51AM -0700, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> From a very quick look at the TDL-11 firmware dump I can see some
> similarities to the TDL-12 firmware. In particular I can see some
> binary data that would be DMA'd into the PDP-11 host memory that would
> be executed as the host side communication channel to the TDL-11 on
> board configuration utility.

One difference at my first glance seems to be the lack of a BOOT
routine.  I tried playing with the card last night to see if it put
anything at 17773000, but either my DIP switches are not configuring
the card to put anything at that address, or it simply doesn't have a
bootstrap.

(The system I'm using to test it on is a KDF11-J, so I made sure to
disable its on-board bootstrap first)

-Seth

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May  3 16:05:41 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 14:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM / was Re: Texas Instruments CC-40
 won't boot
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd7gQQa_uVOBKqx7jCfp7yoNB=YkANMBAu0zzt_AHfOEMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E3420175-4E89-4455-8ED6-3044DAAB81A1@fozztexx.com>
 <2F4A592A-E15E-4AE7-988E-5C44AEE99F74@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C24EA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <26C6796F-7F17-48B6-A421-D3EAB6660DCC@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2501@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55463EB0.4060306@dunnington.plus.com>
 <257D2284-23B0-47DD-B815-A13C011D19AF@fozztexx.com>
 <55464660.5030709@dunnington.plus.com>
 <0E10F3A4-DD46-4A73-9A20-70D4564A94C5@fozztexx.com>
 <55464A5C.6080406@dunnington.plus.com>
 <CAFjrmd7gQQa_uVOBKqx7jCfp7yoNB=YkANMBAu0zzt_AHfOEMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505031354410.22488@shell.lmi.net>

Some have excluded some machines hecause they define them as 
"calculators", instead of as "computers".  (Although I would think that 
THAT clearly puts it over the line into "computers")

We already had arguments about whether having the ROM in a cartridge that 
could be unplugged counted.  What if the ROM is on a card inside?
Does it matter whether the ROM is soldered V socketed?

Is a PROM a ROM?  EPROM?  EEPROM?  Non-volatile RAM?  What about BASIC in 
bubble memory?  in COREs?

On Sun, 3 May 2015, drlegendre . wrote:
> Do the tandy Model 100 / 102 / 200 machines qualify? They all have MS Basic
> in ROM - in fact, I think BG may have done that coding..?

NOW, we need to clarify the definition of what constitutes BASIC?
Is it really BASIC if Kurtz and Kemeny rail against the "enhancements" 
that have been made to it?




From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun May  3 16:36:15 2015
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 23:36:15 +0200
Subject: Sun SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1430688975.2208.4.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2015-05-03 klockan 15:27 -0400 skrev Kip Koon:
> Hi Guys,
> 
> I obtained a Sun SparcStation 4 at the CoCoFEST for which I need some
> information on the proper hook up of the cables.  The SCSI cables I can
> guess, but the PS/2 cables I'm not so sure of.  There is one PS/2 connector
> on the back of the Monitor labeled A/B and on the SparcStstion itself is a
> DB25 pin connector labeled Serial A/B.  Do these connect together?  One PS/2
> connector exists on the Sparcstation so how does both the PS/2 connector on
> the Keyboard and the mouse connect to the SparcStation?  
> 
> Also I understand that it is password protected so I need the "Super-secret"
> procedure to remove the password.  I was told this is possible.  
> 
> Documentation in any form is quite necessary as well.  Any leads as to where
> to obtain these as well?  I haven't looked at sun.com yet, but I most
> certainly will.  Your help is most appreciated.  Thank you in advance for
> any help you can give.  Take care my friends.

The Service manual for the SS 4 is still available from (harcle ...)
oracle.com.

A small search thru google will find it.

In fact: snarf as much doc/sw as you can.

Breaking in ? a suitable cd-reader eases the pain or is the boot monitor
(forth monitor) password protected ?
If the prom is unlocked, "boot -s" will bring up the machine in single
user.

Or, does it boot ? try to break into it over the network.

Depending on configuration it can be easy.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun May  3 17:12:33 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  3 May 2015 18:12:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-8 documents on eBay
Message-ID: <20150503221233.D795D18C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So here's something interesting (but not in my line):

    PDP8/E Interface Manual - 1970
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/271858083977

The same seller has some other PDP-8 documentation (set of prints of some
sort, etc, etc).

	Noel

From isking at uw.edu  Sun May  3 17:18:44 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:18:44 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>

If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:59 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 4/28/2015 1:29 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>
>>
>> >  Thank you for your beautiful work on PDP11GUI.
>> >  Would it be possible to make either a .pdf or a .zip of all the
>> > .html files of the instruction, tutorial, and other PDP11GUI related
>> > pages from your website?   I'm concerned that it could be many years
>> > before I find the time to work with PDP11GUI, and that your website
>> > might be no longer available at that time.
>>
>> Don't worry, retrocmp.com will survive me: Its been mirrored by the
>> waybackmachine under
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20150217002138/http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui
>>
>> Joerg
>>
>
> Joerg, I just saw now that you have "print" and "email" icons on the top
> of each page, which allows for easy printing to local storage.     I'll
> download each page this way, as I'm not sure how long web.archive.org
> itself will be around.
>
> Thank you-
> -J.
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From isking at uw.edu  Sun May  3 17:18:44 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 15:18:44 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>

If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:59 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 4/28/2015 1:29 PM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>
>>
>> >  Thank you for your beautiful work on PDP11GUI.
>> >  Would it be possible to make either a .pdf or a .zip of all the
>> > .html files of the instruction, tutorial, and other PDP11GUI related
>> > pages from your website?   I'm concerned that it could be many years
>> > before I find the time to work with PDP11GUI, and that your website
>> > might be no longer available at that time.
>>
>> Don't worry, retrocmp.com will survive me: Its been mirrored by the
>> waybackmachine under
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20150217002138/http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui
>>
>> Joerg
>>
>
> Joerg, I just saw now that you have "print" and "email" icons on the top
> of each page, which allows for easy printing to local storage.     I'll
> download each page this way, as I'm not sure how long web.archive.org
> itself will be around.
>
> Thank you-
> -J.
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May  3 11:08:06 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 12:08:06 -0400
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUHUcx8wRoDRs9AMvPwi5KJnGjfSomn6kAZBmp=P3-dog@mail.gmail.com>

How neat! I have seen an old, uh, Dilog card, around as well, I think it
is, that isn't very well documented; it's got a 50-pin header on it like
SCSI but is commonly listed for sale at a cost less than that of a known
SCSI card... I had always assumed it was maybe a SASI card or something a
little unusual, maybe a tape controller ... I was kind of suspecting the
same for your board, especially given the date of 1984 on your board, that
is fairly early for SCSI, prior to the ANSI standard, right?

That this one turned out to be SCSI with the strange Z8400 CPU plus 2x
INS8255 PIO gives me just slightly more confidence on the whole, to maybe
try out some of these "proto-SCSI" looking cards.

So ... not a bad thing to come across in a load of old Q-bus cards!

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > A great idea, and yes I do. I've made dumps of the ROM (an Intel 2764)
> > here:
> >
> > http://www.loomcom.com/retrocomputing/pdp11/tdl11/
> >
> > The ROM is simply labelled "IAX 3.2". I ran `strings` on it and it
> > confirms there is some kind of utility intended for SCSI, and there
> > appears to be RL01 and RL02 support, so maybe it's more like the
> > TDL-12 than I thought it was!
> >
>
> From a very quick look at the TDL-11 firmware dump I can see some
> similarities to the TDL-12 firmware. In particular I can see some
> binary data that would be DMA'd into the PDP-11 host memory that would
> be executed as the host side communication channel to the TDL-11 on
> board configuration utility.
>
> I would have to spend more time disassembling the firmware to try to
> figure out what triggers it to DMA that code into the PDP-11 host
> memory and then start the execution of the configuration utility.
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May  3 15:40:32 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 16:40:32 -0400
Subject: Sun SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+2XXBAJ+XkXm6QVzSiEv0_H60M8zSenjukKVAU2eYzWXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
 <CAEOZr+2XXBAJ+XkXm6QVzSiEv0_H60M8zSenjukKVAU2eYzWXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX-BqmWu_43XE3Y37VCgjOO5ag9=5Vuo8F8rOi3VcpYZg@mail.gmail.com>

SS4s are not bad little systems if you want to get started playing with
sparc32; basically a factory-hobbled SS5. I see Jonathan gave you a pretty
good rundown ... not much I can add to that ... if you have a monitor but
you are missing the keyboard and mouse, I have way more sets of Sun Type 5
keyboards and mice than I will ever know what to do with; you're welcome to
a set for cost-of-shipping from Michigan, just ask.

I find it's most convenient to run them off the serial console as Jonathan
describes at least for initial testing... there's a good chance that the
little Dallas battery-backed SRAM is dead at this point in time, which
might nuke any password that might be set in OpenFirmware ... If not, I
think there is a jumper on the mainboard you can use. I am pretty certain
there is always a workaround for the firmware password on this series of
machines (not always the case with some platforms and vendors) so you
should be able to get in there one way or the other ...

If it's just that the root password for a Solaris install on the disk is
unknown, no worries, just reload the machine, no problem, lots of operating
systems will run on these old Suns. You don't want someone's old gungy
installation anyway :O

Another side effect of the NVRAM battery going flat that you will want to
be aware of is that the MAC address of the internal Ethernet NIC will be
wiped out ... so you will have to manually set it every time you power up
the machine... this gets annoying. The easiest and cheapest workaround is
probably to just get yourself one of those dirt-common Sun 10BT+SCSI Sbus
cards and add that in there; the MAC address is hard-coded on those so you
don't have to fool around so much if you want to get the machine on a
network. You might already have one ... is there an Sbus card installed?

Also curious about what monitor you have ... most if not all Sun monitors
are just rebadged Sony and Hitachi CRTs and all I would typically expect to
see on them is the IEC power plug and 13W3 for video ... usually if there
was a port for stereo glasses, it was on the video card itself ... as
Jonathan says, definitely no PS/2 here!

These machines will run NetBSD and OpenBSD very well, older releases of
Solaris (i.e. 2.5, 2.6) more slowly. I've still got a few SS4s myself but
don't run them too much.

You probably won't get too much support from "Sun" now that they have been
swallowed up into the evil empire of Oracle but there's just tons of
information about these machines floating around on the Web; these systems
and their cousins the SS5 and SS20 were very popular in the workstation
market and thus pretty common in collectors hands.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:

> Hold your horses :) We'll get you squared away.
>
> Suns of that era use a proprietary keyboard connection; nothing is PS/2.
> You plug the mouse into the keyboard and then the keyboard into the system.
> Older Type4 keyboards will work but you want a Type5.
>
> The DB25 labelled A/B is a serial port with ports A & B (ttya, ttyb)
> combined. Sun would sell a splitter cable. Standard cabling will give you
> access to the "A" port. With no keyboard and monitor hooked up, using a
> serial cable with null modem (9600-8-n-1) you should be able to get onto
> the console of the system and see how it is set up.
>
> Look at the website below, and scroll down, and you'll get some diagrams
> and photos of how the back of a Sparc4 will look and what the ports will
> do.
>
> http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/sun/index.htm
>
> The monitor should hook up via 13w3, but without a keyboard you're not
> doing much of anything. On boot the Sun will search for a keyboard. If
> there is none there it will change its default input/output to the serial
> port (ttya which we talked about before.)
>
> Any PS/2-style hookup on the back of a monitor may be for 3D glasses or
> similar, but I'm not familiar with those setups on Sun systems.
>
> What's the model number of the monitor? Did you get a keyboard at all?
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 9:27 PM, Kip Koon <computerdoc at sc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I obtained a Sun SparcStation 4 at the CoCoFEST for which I need some
> > information on the proper hook up of the cables.  The SCSI cables I can
> > guess, but the PS/2 cables I'm not so sure of.  There is one PS/2
> connector
> > on the back of the Monitor labeled A/B and on the SparcStstion itself is
> a
> > DB25 pin connector labeled Serial A/B.  Do these connect together?  One
> > PS/2
> > connector exists on the Sparcstation so how does both the PS/2 connector
> on
> > the Keyboard and the mouse connect to the SparcStation?
> >
> > Also I understand that it is password protected so I need the
> > "Super-secret"
> > procedure to remove the password.  I was told this is possible.
> >
> > Documentation in any form is quite necessary as well.  Any leads as to
> > where
> > to obtain these as well?  I haven't looked at sun.com yet, but I most
> > certainly will.  Your help is most appreciated.  Thank you in advance for
> > any help you can give.  Take care my friends.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kip Koon
> >
> >  <mailto:computerdoc at sc.rr.com> computerdoc at sc.rr.com
> >
> >  <http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon>
> > http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -Jon
> +32 0 486 260 686
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May  3 15:48:57 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 16:48:57 -0400
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have seen almost anything once on Sun machines :O Are you testing with
all cables disconnected just power and serial terminal? I have seriously
seen a bad network cable cause mysterious hangs on a SS10 once...

You've tried some of the other usual troubleshooting stuff like swapping
out/around some of the memory, removing Sbus cards, etc?

Under normal circumstances, it /should/ drop to OF with a dead IDPROM per
my experience ... I always think of my Macs and my NeXTs as being the most
troublesome for not powering on when the battery is flat ... Suns are
almost always ... 99.99% of the time ... good about it.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> The PROM battery appears to have died in my Sun U1 (Ethernet address and
> host ID all ff's etc.).
>
> I can hack a new battery into it at some point - but can anyone confirm
> whether the openboot environment should be responsive even while the
> battery is hosed? Via a serial console, I can send a break and get an OK
> prompt back, but then it appears to go unresponsive and won't accept
> commands (no key presses aren't echoed back to the screen).
>
> Using the same terminal emulator / cabling is fine with my other Sun (a
> U2), so I'm reasonably confident that the environment is OK, and that the
> problem is local to the U1 machine.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun May  3 17:31:44 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 18:31:44 -0400
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.

Yeah.  That's my problem too... 100% UNIX/Linux here...

I guess there's WINE?

-ethan

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun May  3 17:50:48 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:50:48 -0500
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com>

On 05/03/2015 03:48 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I have seen almost anything once on Sun machines :O Are you testing with
> all cables disconnected just power and serial terminal? I have seriously
> seen a bad network cable cause mysterious hangs on a SS10 once...

Yeah, initially I just had serial and power hooked up, but because it seems 
to be defaulting to a network boot I did try connecting it up to my LAN 
too, but with no luck.

> You've tried some of the other usual troubleshooting stuff like swapping
> out/around some of the memory, removing Sbus cards, etc?

Not yet, but will do so.

I did just attack the PROM module with a dremel and so am now running with 
good battery voltage via an external battery (but at this stage it still 
throws up an "The IDPROM contents are invalid" message, of course)

I'm suddenly wondering if the serial port is fried. It's possible that I've 
only ever run this machine with keyboard/rodent/monitor attached, not via 
serial console, and a hardware fault on the rx side would explain the 
symptoms. I'll drag the necessary bits out of the basement and see if that 
changes anything (this room is rapidly filling up with vintage crap ;-)

cheers

Jules


From ryan at hack.net  Sun May  3 17:51:26 2015
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 17:51:26 -0500
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>

Have you tried sending a break?

> On May 3, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/03/2015 03:48 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>> I have seen almost anything once on Sun machines :O Are you testing with
>> all cables disconnected just power and serial terminal? I have seriously
>> seen a bad network cable cause mysterious hangs on a SS10 once...
> 
> Yeah, initially I just had serial and power hooked up, but because it seems to be defaulting to a network boot I did try connecting it up to my LAN too, but with no luck.
> 
>> You've tried some of the other usual troubleshooting stuff like swapping
>> out/around some of the memory, removing Sbus cards, etc?
> 
> Not yet, but will do so.
> 
> I did just attack the PROM module with a dremel and so am now running with good battery voltage via an external battery (but at this stage it still throws up an "The IDPROM contents are invalid" message, of course)
> 
> I'm suddenly wondering if the serial port is fried. It's possible that I've only ever run this machine with keyboard/rodent/monitor attached, not via serial console, and a hardware fault on the rx side would explain the symptoms. I'll drag the necessary bits out of the basement and see if that changes anything (this room is rapidly filling up with vintage crap ;-)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules
> 


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun May  3 18:23:15 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 18:23:15 -0500
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com> <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>
Message-ID: <5546ADE3.7080305@gmail.com>

On 05/03/2015 05:51 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
> Have you tried sending a break?

Yes, I had....

Turns out that it *is* the receive side of the console serial port that's 
toast - using a real keyboard/mouse/screen is fine, so I've been able to 
reprogram the NVRAM and the machine is booting happily again.

I'm not sure what, if anything, I can do about the serial console - is 
there a way of defaulting to console on port B rather than on port A? It's 
not a massive problem or anything, but I can see that there might be times 
when I want to just quickly use a headless Solaris box (such as today!) 
without needing a full GUI.

cheers

Jules



From lists at loomcom.com  Sun May  3 18:52:16 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 18:52:16 -0500
Subject: QBUS Memory card config info
Message-ID: <20150503235216.GA18331@loomcom.com>


In my recent Qbus haul, I found two non-DEC memory cards:

1. NSC NS23D
2. Dataram 40903 Rev G

Both are fully populatd with 2MB (1MW) of 256Kb x 1 chips, and both
are configured for address 0.

I'd love to use both together in one of my systems, but I can't find
a scrap of documentation anywhere, so I have no idea how to configure
the base address of either card. Disappointing!

Does anyone have docs for either of these beasts?

Best Wishes,

-Seth


From shumaker at att.net  Sun May  3 19:26:36 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 17:26:36 -0700
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>

There is a Yahoo group named "ET3400" that has manuals, schematics, 
projects etc. posted in the files section

Steve
On 5/3/2015 1:46 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
> (Still in SBC mode..)
>
> I'm feeling a need for one of the Heathkit ETA-3400 memory&  I/O expansion
> units for my ET-3400.. or at least a set of documentation such as could be
> used to build one of my own.
>
> Anybody have an ETA-3400 they'd be willing to part with..? A set of docs in
> PDF?
>
> As it sits, all I've got here is a copy of the ET-3400 'Modification
> Manual' which details the changes which must be made to the ET so it will
> connect to the ETA module.
>
> Thanks for any assistance..
>
>    


From drlegendre at gmail.com  Sun May  3 20:08:43 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 20:08:43 -0500
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, I'll look into it - but I haven't a Yahoo! login, nor do I desire
one at this late date..

Can someone with access download & serve the relevant files?

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:26 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> There is a Yahoo group named "ET3400" that has manuals, schematics,
> projects etc. posted in the files section
>
> Steve
> On 5/3/2015 1:46 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> (Still in SBC mode..)
>>
>> I'm feeling a need for one of the Heathkit ETA-3400 memory&  I/O expansion
>> units for my ET-3400.. or at least a set of documentation such as could be
>> used to build one of my own.
>>
>> Anybody have an ETA-3400 they'd be willing to part with..? A set of docs
>> in
>> PDF?
>>
>> As it sits, all I've got here is a copy of the ET-3400 'Modification
>> Manual' which details the changes which must be made to the ET so it will
>> connect to the ETA module.
>>
>> Thanks for any assistance..
>>
>>
>>
>
>

From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun May  3 20:10:52 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 18:10:52 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>


>
>> If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.
> Yeah.  That's my problem too... 100% UNIX/Linux here...
>
> I guess there's WINE?

Sure it might be nice if it were native to something else, but it's not
like you can't run a Windows VM on your Linux, MacOS, FreeBSD, or other
machine.

Linux KVM, VirtualBox, VMware Fusion/Workstation, Parallels, the list
goes on.

Joerg didn't *have* to make it available to us on any platform, remember...

--S.


From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun May  3 20:16:10 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 18:16:10 -0700
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <5546ADE3.7080305@gmail.com>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com> <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>
 <5546ADE3.7080305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5546C85A.9070509@crash.com>

On 05/03/2015 04:23 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what, if anything, I can do about the serial console - is
> there a way of defaulting to console on port B rather than on port A?

Not quite what you might be looking for, but: Run "printenv" at the "ok
" prompt, you should see two variables to set the console input and
output. "ttyb" should do the trick IIRC.

Remember, that'll get lost if the battery dies or gets disconnected...

--S.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May  3 20:32:20 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 21:32:20 -0400
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CAD1FE98-69A8-44B5-B708-D12B75328A92@comcast.net>


> On May 3, 2015, at 9:10 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.
>> Yeah.  That's my problem too... 100% UNIX/Linux here...
>> 
>> I guess there's WINE?
> 
> Sure it might be nice if it were native to something else, but it's not
> like you can't run a Windows VM on your Linux, MacOS, FreeBSD, or other
> machine.
> 
> Linux KVM, VirtualBox, VMware Fusion/Workstation, Parallels, the list
> goes on.
> 
> Joerg didn't *have* to make it available to us on any platform, remember?

This seems like a good time to plug cross-platform common UI frameworks.  There are several: wxWidgets is a particularly good one in my experience.   I?ll take it over the native Unix ones any day, in fact, even without the cross-platform angle.

	paul



From j at ckrubin.us  Sun May  3 21:09:56 2015
From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 02:09:56 +0000
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
Message-ID: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a _lot_ of locations!

Jack

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May  3 21:23:54 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:23:54 -0400
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6B7C10BE-B6B7-496E-88DE-9A04999FAF0C@comcast.net>

That link doesn?t work.  Are those ... really supposed to be there?  All I get is a 404 page.

	paul

> On May 3, 2015, at 10:09 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
> 
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a _lot_ of locations!
> 
> Jack


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun May  3 21:36:44 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sun SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I obtained a Sun SparcStation 4 at the CoCoFEST for which I need some
> information on the proper hook up of the cables.  The SCSI cables I
> can guess, but the PS/2 cables I'm not so sure of.

I'm fairly sure the SS4 doesn't use PS/2 connectors for anything.
(Well, unless you have an unusual card in the machine.)  My SS4s are
not very accessible at the moment, or I'd check, but I'm pretty sure
none of the pre-SPARC64 machines used PS/2 connectors for anything.

I would guess you are mistaking the miniDIN-8 connector, used for
keyboard and mouse, for a PS/2 connector; the shell is the same size,
but the pin layout is all different.

> There is one PS/2 connector on the back of the Monitor labeled A/B
> and on the SparcStstion itself is a DB25 pin connector labeled Serial
> A/B.  Do these connect together?

I don't know.  The DB25 is the serial ports.  I don't know why you'd
connect those to a monitor, but maybe.

> One PS/2 connector exists on the Sparcstation so how does both the
> PS/2 connector on the Keyboard and the mouse connect to the
> SparcStation?

Normally, the minDIN-8 on the machine connects to a miniDIN-8 on the
keyboard; the mouse plugs into another miniDIN-8 on the keyboard.

> Also I understand that it is password protected so I need the
> "Super-secret" procedure to remove the password.  I was told this is
> possible.

It is, at least if this is just talking about the ROM password.  There
are at least two ways to deal with it: (1) boot the machine from
whatever it's configured to boot from, but provide it a boot device that
boots to an OS you control, which you then use to clear the PROM
security settings; and (2) swap the NVRAM chip into a machine of a
different kind (but using compatible NVRAMs), which you then use to
re-init the settings.

> Documentation in any form is quite necessary as well.

Documentation on what?  Do you want to know what the back-panel
connectors are for, what's necessary to make your own SBus cards, how
to talk to add-on hardware that's in the machine, how to use software
that came with it, what?

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From bqt at softjar.se  Sun May  3 21:44:10 2015
From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 04:44:10 +0200
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
Message-ID: <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>

All true. However, in which way is Windows on a virtual machine any different than on a physical machine? It's just as much windows in either case.
Just saying...

  Johnny



Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> skrev: (4 maj 2015 03:10:52 CEST)
>
>>
>>> If it ran on something, anything other than Windows?.
>> Yeah.  That's my problem too... 100% UNIX/Linux here...
>>
>> I guess there's WINE?
>
>Sure it might be nice if it were native to something else, but it's not
>like you can't run a Windows VM on your Linux, MacOS, FreeBSD, or other
>machine.
>
>Linux KVM, VirtualBox, VMware Fusion/Workstation, Parallels, the list
>goes on.
>
>Joerg didn't *have* to make it available to us on any platform,
>remember...
>
>--S.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From classiccmp at crash.com  Sun May  3 22:30:05 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 20:30:05 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
Message-ID: <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>

On 05/03/2015 07:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> All true. However, in which way is Windows on a virtual machine any different than on a physical machine? It's just as much windows in either case.

On the one hand, that's kind of my point - it should work just as well.
On the other, perhaps limiting the "contagion" to a VM, or not having to
add a machine to run it, is a win. Or gets people to focus on the fact
that Joerg shared something nice, even if it requires something that isn't.

It's probably all just reflexive whinging about MSFT, and I shouldn't
have bothered wasting everybody's bandwidth on a response. Let alone two.

Oh well.
--S.


From philip at neoncluster.com  Sun May  3 22:58:25 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 15:58:25 +1200
Subject: Looking for SYSGEN and FORMAT for Versafloppy 1 controller
Message-ID: <78B874F2-3521-4C29-B519-9C2E507B47F7@neoncluster.com>

Hi,
I have a single CP/M 1.4 boot floppy that came with my IMSAI 8080 system. 
It?s been a bit of an effort, but the system is now fully functional from a hardware point of view.

I?m now looking for SYSGEN and FORMAT programs (or any programs at all) for the Versafloppy 1 controller card. 
I?m hoping these will allow me to get a backup of the floppy before it dies. 
It?s already marginal, and boots only once in every 3 attempts, so whatever I do, I?m going to have to be very careful.

For more info, you can see my post of VCF about it here:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?47424-Is-FORMAT-COM-for-CP-M-1-4-hardware-specific

Cheers & thanks.

Phil

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Sun May  3 23:01:14 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 21:01:14 -0700
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20150503210114.0c5c287b@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Mon, 4 May 2015 02:09:56 +0000
Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is
> to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously
> more than just manufacturing -
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a
> _lot_ of locations!

Got 404 error. Tried w/o dots and ctory - still 404

Lyle

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From jws at jwsss.com  Sun May  3 23:14:51 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:51 -0700
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <6B7C10BE-B6B7-496E-88DE-9A04999FAF0C@comcast.net>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <6B7C10BE-B6B7-496E-88DE-9A04999FAF0C@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5546F23B.8080403@jwsss.com>



On 5/3/2015 7:23 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> That link doesn?t work.  Are those ... really supposed to be there?  All I get is a 404 page.
>
> 	paul
>
>> On May 3, 2015, at 10:09 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a _lot_ of locations!
>>
>> Jack
Jack needs to do a copy of "copy link location" or copy URL to get the 
expanded true link, and not the text from some page and share that.

One of the problems with dropbox and google links are they are just 
hash, you can't guess the middle of any of them

thanks
jim

From philip at neoncluster.com  Sun May  3 23:31:30 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:31:30 +1200
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
Message-ID: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>

Hi, 
I?m looking for a program (or preferably an online conversion site, as I use Macintosh) that can convert a long stream of Hex, to 3 digit Octal.
I have found one site that works ok (http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter <http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter>), but the octal it outputs is not always 3 digits long. Unfortunately I then need to manually add the missing ?0?s, which can be a huge pain for long listings, and open to human error.

For example the above site does?.

Entering this:
0E 09 11 1B 01 CD 05 00

Outputs this:
16 11 21 33 1 315 5 0

But I want this:
016 011 021 033 001 315 005 000

Does anyone know of a good site (or some good software)?

Much thanks

Phil

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun May  3 23:41:46 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:41:46 -0600
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUHUcx8wRoDRs9AMvPwi5KJnGjfSomn6kAZBmp=P3-dog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUHUcx8wRoDRs9AMvPwi5KJnGjfSomn6kAZBmp=P3-dog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR45AWPafeK5syaat0wHQ3b--OY4Cga6jw1yxtovtkFtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> That this one turned out to be SCSI with the strange Z8400 CPU

What's strange about a Z8400? That's a normal Z80 CPU. If there are
two additional digits after "8400", that's the rated speed in MHz, as
opposed to the older alpha scheme (Z80 = 2.5 MHz, Z80A = 4 MHz, Z80B =
6 MHz, Z80H = 8 MHz).

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun May  3 23:44:00 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:44:00 -0600
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSn_aQ+pbgsqeuuOKbUJRgqdejz_HJz7By4-N9DN4WkFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Jack Rubin <j at ckrubin.us> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a _lot_ of locations!

They were, as they bragged in their advertising of the time, the
second-largest computer company in the world.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May  4 00:02:59 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:02:59 -0700
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLoG06uMSzos3y_Lv3+05gWDoOOiQwcfNo7816s0vjf-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
> * On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 12:00:51AM -0700, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
>> From a very quick look at the TDL-11 firmware dump I can see some
>> similarities to the TDL-12 firmware. In particular I can see some
>> binary data that would be DMA'd into the PDP-11 host memory that would
>> be executed as the host side communication channel to the TDL-11 on
>> board configuration utility.
>
> One difference at my first glance seems to be the lack of a BOOT
> routine.  I tried playing with the card last night to see if it put
> anything at 17773000, but either my DIP switches are not configuring
> the card to put anything at that address, or it simply doesn't have a
> bootstrap.
>
> (The system I'm using to test it on is a KDF11-J, so I made sure to
> disable its on-board bootstrap first)

"KDF11-J" what's that? Do you mean M8189 KDF11-B 11/23-PLUS?

If so, do you have the 23-380E4 & 23-381E4 (KDF11B-BH) or 23-453E4 &
23-454E4 (KDF11B-BJ) firmware with the MAP command? If you do then you
should be able to use that to scan the I/O space to see where the
TDL-11 CSR is located. The default should be 17774400. If it does not
appear to be located there but you can identify where it is located
maybe you can figure out how the dip switches map to the CSR address
bits and relocate it to the standard address.

On the TDL-12 you would use ODT to write 1000-octal to the CSR base
register and then begin execution at 1000-octal after the controller
DMA'd the host side DMON communication code there. After disassembling
the TDL-11 firmware it appears that you might need to write 400-octal
to the CSR base register instead of 1000-octal to get the controller
to DMA the DMON communication code to 1000-octal.

If that works and the code is DMA'd to 1000-octal and you start
execution there it should result in this menu display on the console:
"IAX 3.2 (C)1984 TD Systems\r\n"
" B  Boot\r\n"
" C  Configuration\r\n"
" D  Display\r\n"
" E  Exercise\r\n"
" F  Format\r\n"
" S  SCSI Cmd\r\n"
" T  Test TDL\r\n"
" W  Write BSF"
Followed by a "DMON= " prompt where you would enter one of the above choices.

-Glen

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon May  4 00:07:24 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 23:07:24 -0600
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR09rDb4g9BECjLUh6Yzk-bC+FQEmaDcm79xt7J+OAAPg@mail.gmail.com>

> I?m looking for a program (or preferably an online conversion site, as I use Macintosh) that can convert a long stream of Hex, to 3 digit Octal.

With python 2.7 installed, the following program, which I call
hex2oct.py, will do it:

#!/usr/bin/python2
# Copyright 2015 Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
# Released under Creative Commons BY-SA 4.0 International Public License
# https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode
import fileinput,re,sys
r = re.compile('[0-9A-F]+', re.I)
for line in fileinput.input():
    while len(line):
        m = r.search(line)
        if m:
            sys.stdout.write(line[:m.start()])
            sys.stdout.write("%03o" % int(m.group(),16))
            line = line[m.end():]
        else:
            sys.stdout.write(line)
            line = ''

Just put that in a file and chmod it to be executable. Change the path
in the first line to the location of your python executable.
(Alternatively, put "python" or the full path to the python executable
on the command line before then name of this program.)

By default It takes data from standard input, or you can specify one
or more filenames on the command line to be processed sequentially.
>From standard input, enter as many lines of input as you like, then an
end-of-file (control-D on Unix and derivatives, control-Z on Windows,
though I haven't tested it on Windows).  Exit by an empty line with an
end-of-file.

Any non-hexadecimal data before, between, or after hexadecimal numbers
is preserved, so you can have commas, tabs, etc. in the input and get
them back in the output.

Hexadecimal values larger than FF will likely yield undesired results.
The program could be easily modified to ignore them, complain about
them, or automatically split up sequences of more than 2 hex digits.

From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Sun May  3 21:34:19 2015
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 22:34:19 -0400
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UO4sWPCS6ROVFEZ0_7y7HS7Lg+ZZ76JkntZ9U6Zu+HMSQ@mail.gmail.com>

I was just recently loaned an et-3400 from a friend without the memory and
I/O expansion, i would be interested to see if it would be possible to
build the expansion as well.

From mbbrutman at brutman.com  Sun May  3 13:19:48 2015
From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 11:19:48 -0700
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
Message-ID: <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Not to add too much to the drama but I don't think this should go unsaid:

1. It saddens me that part of your hobby is being ruined for you.  You know
what?  It saddens other people that you are ruining things for them too.
So stop with the constant nitpicking and snark, especially when replying to
people you already "have a history" with, and things like this won't
happen.  Nobody is winning here.

2. The history is much longer and much deeper than the referenced thread.
Pointing out the tip of the iceberg and commenting on how that should not
have sunk a ship is deceptive.  This history goes back four years and it
involves a few other members too.  The cycle of flare-up, bans,
discussions, and un-bans has gotten old.  And none of it has been done in a
vacuum - Erik is usually involved.

3. You consider my behavior insulting?  I consider your behavior insulting
too.  There are people writing me notes of encouragement too.  None of this
means anything.

4. I've contacted Erik (again) to have him make a decision.  He is not
responding, so I assume he is attending to real life.  Want back in?  Fine,
let's talk in private - mbbrutman at gmail.com.  Or wait for Erik.


Mike

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:

> As some of you know, Mike Brutman recently kicked
> me off Erik Klein's excellent Vintage Computer
> Forum, for no reason other than Mike's ego and the
> chip on his shoulder as far as I and the folks who
> wrote me unsolicited notes of support can tell:
>
> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45454-5162-serial-port-9600bps-interlink-use-xcopy-with-v
>
> Apparently some folks also wrote to Erik on my
> behalf, but he's chosen to not reply...
>
> Be that as it may and aside from the embarrassment and Mike's insults, no
> problem; more time to spend elsewhere and an excuse to finally get rid of
> the PC-related systems, motherboards, cards, disks & drives, docs etc. that
> I've been hanging on to for close to 40 years in case someone might
> need/want something some day.
>
> But being cut off arbitrarily and without warning
> or recourse from my contacts and email archive at
> VCF might affect some other folks; among other
> things, I have here, boxed and ready for shipping
> to someone on VCF but no idea to whom, the
> following items:
>
> - Vector Graphic S100 Bitstreamer II and
> Micropolis Floppy Controller cards.
>
> - Wright Line manual 80 column printing card
> punch.
>
> - Mohawk Data Sciences keyboard.
>
> AFAIR the floppy controller and the keyboard were
> both going to someone in Canada, one in BC and the
> other here in Ontario, and the rest in the US.
>
> If any of those folks happen to read this, please
> get in touch with me off-list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> mike
>
>
>

From philip at neoncluster.com  Mon May  4 00:46:40 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:46:40 +1200
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR09rDb4g9BECjLUh6Yzk-bC+FQEmaDcm79xt7J+OAAPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <CAFrGgTR09rDb4g9BECjLUh6Yzk-bC+FQEmaDcm79xt7J+OAAPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3741DC88-44A2-4F76-8E82-2E3CD7B8E34B@neoncluster.com>

Thanks Eric,
I?ve never used python, so it?ll certainly be a learning curve.
If I can get it to work, It?ll ease my pain. May give it a go this weekend?.Possible high chance of failure though!

Cheers


> On May 4, 2015, at 5:07 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I?m looking for a program (or preferably an online conversion site, as I use Macintosh) that can convert a long stream of Hex, to 3 digit Octal.
> 
> With python 2.7 installed, the following program, which I call
> hex2oct.py, will do it:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python2
> # Copyright 2015 Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
> # Released under Creative Commons BY-SA 4.0 International Public License
> # https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode
> import fileinput,re,sys
> r = re.compile('[0-9A-F]+', re.I)
> for line in fileinput.input():
>    while len(line):
>        m = r.search(line)
>        if m:
>            sys.stdout.write(line[:m.start()])
>            sys.stdout.write("%03o" % int(m.group(),16))
>            line = line[m.end():]
>        else:
>            sys.stdout.write(line)
>            line = ''
> 
> Just put that in a file and chmod it to be executable. Change the path
> in the first line to the location of your python executable.
> (Alternatively, put "python" or the full path to the python executable
> on the command line before then name of this program.)
> 
> By default It takes data from standard input, or you can specify one
> or more filenames on the command line to be processed sequentially.
> From standard input, enter as many lines of input as you like, then an
> end-of-file (control-D on Unix and derivatives, control-Z on Windows,
> though I haven't tested it on Windows).  Exit by an empty line with an
> end-of-file.
> 
> Any non-hexadecimal data before, between, or after hexadecimal numbers
> is preserved, so you can have commas, tabs, etc. in the input and get
> them back in the output.
> 
> Hexadecimal values larger than FF will likely yield undesired results.
> The program could be easily modified to ignore them, complain about
> them, or automatically split up sequences of more than 2 hex digits.


From hagstrom at bu.edu  Mon May  4 00:50:33 2015
From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 05:50:33 +0000
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>

I snagged a copy of them a while back from the Yahoo group and put them in my Dropbox hierarchy.  Not my scans, I don't have the originals.

Assembly manual in two parts:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-1of2.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-2of2.pdf

Software manual in two parts:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-1of2.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-2of2.pdf





On May 3, 2015, at 9:08 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com<mailto:drlegendre at gmail.com>> wrote:

Thanks, I'll look into it - but I haven't a Yahoo! login, nor do I desire
one at this late date..

Can someone with access download & serve the relevant files?

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:26 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net<mailto:shumaker at att.net>> wrote:

There is a Yahoo group named "ET3400" that has manuals, schematics,
projects etc. posted in the files section

Steve
On 5/3/2015 1:46 PM, drlegendre . wrote:

(Still in SBC mode..)

I'm feeling a need for one of the Heathkit ETA-3400 memory&  I/O expansion
units for my ET-3400.. or at least a set of documentation such as could be
used to build one of my own.

Anybody have an ETA-3400 they'd be willing to part with..? A set of docs
in
PDF?

As it sits, all I've got here is a copy of the ET-3400 'Modification
Manual' which details the changes which must be made to the ET so it will
connect to the ETA module.

Thanks for any assistance..







From north at alum.mit.edu  Mon May  4 00:58:54 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2015 22:58:54 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
Message-ID: <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>

On 5/3/2015 9:31 PM, Philip Lord wrote:
> Hi,
> I?m looking for a program (or preferably an online conversion site, as I use Macintosh) that can convert a long stream of Hex, to 3 digit Octal.
> I have found one site that works ok (http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter <http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter>), but the octal it outputs is not always 3 digits long. Unfortunately I then need to manually add the missing ?0?s, which can be a huge pain for long listings, and open to human error.
>
> For example the above site does?.
>
> Entering this:
> 0E 09 11 1B 01 CD 05 00
>
> Outputs this:
> 16 11 21 33 1 315 5 0
>
> But I want this:
> 016 011 021 033 001 315 005 000
>
> Does anyone know of a good site (or some good software)?
>
> Much thanks
> Phil

Here is a perl one-liner that does what you want:

perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'

Example:

~[514] perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
1 2 3 de ad be
001 002 003 336 255 276

I typed the red line as input data, the program output the blue line.
You can also use standard unix file indirection or piping as well on the program 
line.

Don








From lists at loomcom.com  Mon May  4 01:05:44 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 01:05:44 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLoG06uMSzos3y_Lv3+05gWDoOOiQwcfNo7816s0vjf-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLoG06uMSzos3y_Lv3+05gWDoOOiQwcfNo7816s0vjf-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150504060544.GA10192@loomcom.com>

* On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 10:02:59PM -0700, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> "KDF11-J" what's that? Do you mean M8189 KDF11-B 11/23-PLUS?

Oops -- yes, exactly right. That's what I get for not getting
enough sleep lately. It's an M8189.

> If so, do you have the 23-380E4 & 23-381E4 (KDF11B-BH) or 23-453E4 &
> 23-454E4 (KDF11B-BJ) firmware with the MAP command? If you do then you
> should be able to use that to scan the I/O space to see where the
> TDL-11 CSR is located. The default should be 17774400. If it does not
> appear to be located there but you can identify where it is located
> maybe you can figure out how the dip switches map to the CSR address
> bits and relocate it to the standard address.

Yes, it's located at 17774400, looks like it's configured for the
default location.

> On the TDL-12 you would use ODT to write 1000-octal to the CSR base
> register and then begin execution at 1000-octal after the controller
> DMA'd the host side DMON communication code there. After disassembling
> the TDL-11 firmware it appears that you might need to write 400-octal
> to the CSR base register instead of 1000-octal to get the controller
> to DMA the DMON communication code to 1000-octal.

Drat, it doesn't seem to work. Here's the procedure I tried:

1. Halt the CPU and enter ODT
2. 17774400/000201 400
3. Set halt button back to Run
4. Examine 1000 and up... nothing there but 000000's and 177777's

> -Glen

-Seth

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon May  4 01:14:16 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 01:14:16 -0500
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd75L1bfTGeCaovp6tEbMdZX6-XUHLrQNy2wxwGwTNxL6w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so much, Paul.. that info certainly moves things ahead.

But the dang schematics are missing from the hardware manual.. does anyone
have a scan?

BTW, I do have what I believe to be the complete set of coursework
materials for the ET-3400.. not just the first ET-3401 course, but the next
two or three units as well. If anyone has interest, I can upload them.

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Hagstrom, Paul <hagstrom at bu.edu> wrote:

> I snagged a copy of them a while back from the Yahoo group and put them in
> my Dropbox hierarchy.  Not my scans, I don't have the originals.
>
> Assembly manual in two parts:
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-1of2.pdf
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-2of2.pdf
>
> Software manual in two parts:
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-1of2.pdf
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-2of2.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2015, at 9:08 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com<mailto:
> drlegendre at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks, I'll look into it - but I haven't a Yahoo! login, nor do I desire
> one at this late date..
>
> Can someone with access download & serve the relevant files?
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:26 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net<mailto:
> shumaker at att.net>> wrote:
>
> There is a Yahoo group named "ET3400" that has manuals, schematics,
> projects etc. posted in the files section
>
> Steve
> On 5/3/2015 1:46 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
>
> (Still in SBC mode..)
>
> I'm feeling a need for one of the Heathkit ETA-3400 memory&  I/O expansion
> units for my ET-3400.. or at least a set of documentation such as could be
> used to build one of my own.
>
> Anybody have an ETA-3400 they'd be willing to part with..? A set of docs
> in
> PDF?
>
> As it sits, all I've got here is a copy of the ET-3400 'Modification
> Manual' which details the changes which must be made to the ET so it will
> connect to the ETA module.
>
> Thanks for any assistance..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From hagstrom at bu.edu  Mon May  4 01:20:38 2015
From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 06:20:38 +0000
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjrmd75L1bfTGeCaovp6tEbMdZX6-XUHLrQNy2wxwGwTNxL6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
 <CAFjrmd75L1bfTGeCaovp6tEbMdZX6-XUHLrQNy2wxwGwTNxL6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3E31523-6321-4509-9640-7C7658E7273C@bu.edu>


On May 4, 2015, at 2:14 AM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com<mailto:drlegendre at gmail.com>> wrote:

But the dang schematics are missing from the hardware manual.. does anyone
have a scan?

Oops, sorry.  The schematics are there on the Yahoo group, but I failed to grab them before.  Now rectified:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/ETA-3400-Schematic.PDF

 -Paul



From drlegendre at gmail.com  Mon May  4 01:23:26 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 01:23:26 -0500
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <A3E31523-6321-4509-9640-7C7658E7273C@bu.edu>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
 <CAFjrmd75L1bfTGeCaovp6tEbMdZX6-XUHLrQNy2wxwGwTNxL6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A3E31523-6321-4509-9640-7C7658E7273C@bu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd68NDu8w=yHrAGj+PCxLqTCe1kKunaLBnasEy7tmiqsPQ@mail.gmail.com>

You're a real mensch, Paul.. thank you so much, again.

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Hagstrom, Paul <hagstrom at bu.edu> wrote:

>
> On May 4, 2015, at 2:14 AM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com<mailto:
> drlegendre at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> But the dang schematics are missing from the hardware manual.. does anyone
> have a scan?
>
> Oops, sorry.  The schematics are there on the Yahoo group, but I failed to
> grab them before.  Now rectified:
>
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/ETA-3400-Schematic.PDF
>
>  -Paul
>
>
>

From philip at neoncluster.com  Mon May  4 02:23:23 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 19:23:23 +1200
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>

Thanks again, I?ve never used Perl either, but I just installed it.

So I saved your script as a textfile called HEX_OCTAL.pl:

perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'

But unfortunately I get the following error when I try to run it:

syntax error at /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl line 1, near "n -e "
Execution of /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl aborted due to compilation errors.

Not sure what I?m doing wrong?being a noob, it could be anything!

Phil


> On May 4, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 5/3/2015 9:31 PM, Philip Lord wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I?m looking for a program (or preferably an online conversion site, as I use Macintosh) that can convert a long stream of Hex, to 3 digit Octal.
>> I have found one site that works ok (http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter <http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter> <http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter <http://www.kjetil-hartveit.com/blog/10/hex-binary-decimal-octal-and-ascii-converter>>), but the octal it outputs is not always 3 digits long. Unfortunately I then need to manually add the missing ?0?s, which can be a huge pain for long listings, and open to human error.
>> 
>> For example the above site does?.
>> 
>> Entering this:
>> 0E 09 11 1B 01 CD 05 00
>> 
>> Outputs this:
>> 16 11 21 33 1 315 5 0
>> 
>> But I want this:
>> 016 011 021 033 001 315 005 000
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a good site (or some good software)?
>> 
>> Much thanks
>> Phil
> 
> Here is a perl one-liner that does what you want:
> 
> perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
> 
> Example:
> 
> ~[514] perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
> 1 2 3 de ad be
> 001 002 003 336 255 276
> 
> I typed the red line as input data, the program output the blue line.
> You can also use standard unix file indirection or piping as well on the program line.
> 
> Don


From north at alum.mit.edu  Mon May  4 02:54:24 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 00:54:24 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
Message-ID: <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>

On 5/4/2015 12:23 AM, Philip Lord wrote:
> Thanks again, I?ve never used Perl either, but I just installed it.
>
> So I saved your script as a textfile called HEX_OCTAL.pl:
>
> perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
>
> But unfortunately I get the following error when I try to run it:
>
> syntax error at /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl line 1, near "n -e "
> Execution of /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl aborted due to compilation errors.
>
> Not sure what I?m doing wrong?being a noob, it could be anything!
>
> Phil
>

There are two ways to resolve this.

First, you just put the command line I gave you into a shell script file (call 
it conv.sh):

     #!/bin/bash
     perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'

Then just type './conv.sh' on the command line to run in interactive mode, or 
'./conv.sh < test.dat' to source data from a file test.dat.

Or, second, to turn the perl one-liner into a real perl program, it needs to be 
this (call it conv.pl):

     #!/usr/bin/perl
     while (<>) { print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n"; }
     exit;

then you can run this in the same way as above, except type './conv.pl' or 
'./conv.pl < test.dat'

Don



From philip at neoncluster.com  Mon May  4 03:12:23 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 20:12:23 +1200
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>

Perfect?seems to work great!

Thanks!!!

> On May 4, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 5/4/2015 12:23 AM, Philip Lord wrote:
>> Thanks again, I?ve never used Perl either, but I just installed it.
>> 
>> So I saved your script as a textfile called HEX_OCTAL.pl:
>> 
>> perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
>> 
>> But unfortunately I get the following error when I try to run it:
>> 
>> syntax error at /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl line 1, near "n -e "
>> Execution of /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl aborted due to compilation errors.
>> 
>> Not sure what I?m doing wrong?being a noob, it could be anything!
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
> 
> There are two ways to resolve this.
> 
> First, you just put the command line I gave you into a shell script file (call it conv.sh):
> 
>    #!/bin/bash
>    perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n";'
> 
> Then just type './conv.sh' on the command line to run in interactive mode, or './conv.sh < test.dat' to source data from a file test.dat.
> 
> Or, second, to turn the perl one-liner into a real perl program, it needs to be this (call it conv.pl):
> 
>    #!/usr/bin/perl
>    while (<>) { print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split(" ")))."\n"; }
>    exit;
> 
> then you can run this in the same way as above, except type './conv.pl' or './conv.pl < test.dat'
> 
> Don
> 
> 


From fulivi at tiscali.it  Mon May  4 03:18:10 2015
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 10:18:10 +0200
Subject: 8257 use in Intel MDS IOC
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR5Grxh-NksrjxO_o_fxRE4tQ9kDQ_wAekHmmQMwh1txA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTR5Grxh-NksrjxO_o_fxRE4tQ9kDQ_wAekHmmQMwh1txA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55472B42.5090504@tiscali.it>

Hi,

I've been doing some reverse engineering, too. Of the same exact version
of firmware you mention. I had to do it in order to build an accurate
model of IOC hw in MESS emulator.
Anyway, what I understood is that the firmware automatically adapts to
either 8237 or 8257. During initialization (@ address 0084) the IOC CPU
reads from register 0xfd. This register reads as 00 in case a 8237 is
installed (because it's a temporary register that gets reset to 00 at
initialization) or ff in case of 8257 (I understand the 8257 leaves the
bus floating for registers > 0xf8).
The two DMA chips mostly behave the same, apart from different
arrangement of registers. Where they do differ a lot is in the
"autoload" feature that is only available in 8257. Basically the DMA
channel 2 is loaded with data from channel 3 once channel 2 reaches
terminal count. In the IOC this feature is used to implement hw
scrolling of video because the framebuffer is split in two parts. The
second part is actually displayed first whereas the first part is
displayed just after the second. Scrolling of video is achieved by
simply moving down one row the starting point of second part. The trick
is to load channel 2 at raster interrupt with data for second part of
framebuffer and channel 3 with data for first part. The DMA hardware
automatically switches to supplying data for the first part once the
second one ends because of the autoload feature of 8257.
See page 4-5 of hardware reference manual (9800556-02).
But 8237 has no such feature. My understanding is that an hw
modification is needed to IOC board if 8237 is installed (see for
example the wiring around the DMA in this picture:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/16932740579/in/album-72157651893890975/
). This rewiring (for which I found no documentation) apparently allows
the 8237 to "emulate" the autoload feature of 8257.

F.Ulivi

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon May  4 03:43:11 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 02:43:11 -0600
Subject: 8257 use in Intel MDS IOC
In-Reply-To: <55472B42.5090504@tiscali.it>
References: <CAFrGgTR5Grxh-NksrjxO_o_fxRE4tQ9kDQ_wAekHmmQMwh1txA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55472B42.5090504@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS=xHvwLULBdjKbjsz8zUt28CmsTC8Srupk=XoRn1nSDA@mail.gmail.com>

F.Ulivi wrote:
> My understanding is that an hw
> modification is needed to IOC board if 8237 is installed (see for
> example the wiring around the DMA in this picture:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/16932740579/in/album-72157651893890975/
> ). This rewiring (for which I found no documentation) apparently allows
> the 8237 to "emulate" the autoload feature of 8257.

That's actually my IOC board. I hadn't noticed that it has an 8237A!
Amazing. Thanks for pointing that out.  That's definitely proof that
the code can work with the 8237A, now I need to scrounge an 8257 and
determine whether the board w/ the 8237A rework will still work with
the 8257.

IIRC, the 8237A had some improvements over AMD's original 8237 design,
so it's possible that a non-A 8237 might not work. I haven't compared
the A and non-A datasheets yet.

I've been making progress on reverse-engineering the IOC firmware.
They wrote it as four separate 2K ROMs, each of which has a table of
fixed entry point addresses for entry from the other ROMs. (The first
ROM has the entry points interleaved with the RST n vectors.)  The
first ROM is startup and diagnostics, and the second is the command
handler and the driver for the intergral single-density floppy.  I
haven't yet started on the third and fourth.  There are a few input
and output bits they access that are not used in the normal IOC, but
perhaps are used in the IOC-III used in later Series III machines.

In the RAM test, if the back panel mode switch is set to diagnostic
mode, they insert a delay (which I haven't timed) between the write
and verify passes of the diagnostic, presumably to test whether memory
refresh is working.

I was hoping that the floppy driver had support for two drives, but as
far as I can tell so far, it does not. I could be wrong since I
haven't puzzled out all of the details yet.

My IPB is the old version (1001194) without the 20-bit addressing
daughterboard (1002234). I don't have a schematic of the daugherboard,
but all it does is use a 74LS30 and a resistor pack to pull up the
A10/ through A13/ address lines on the Multibus, and disable the
on-board RAM address decode if they aren't all high, in order to
prevent the board from incorrectly responding to RAM addresses from
0x10000 through 0x17fff, 0x20000 through 0x27fff, etc.  I can easily
hack that in myself.

I'd really like to replace the IPB with the 8085-based IPC, if anyone
has a spare available. Also looking for an RPA, RPB, or RPC 8086 board
to effectively turn it into a Series III, and the two-board
double-density floppy controller. (This Series II was previously
equipped with the double-density controller, as the I/O cabling is
still present.)

Also it would be nice if anyone has a later rev of the Series III
schematics. The set that Al has kindly provided on Bitsavers is
121642-001A, which appears to be the earliest set Intel printed, and
doesn't cover the RPB or RPC, or the IOC-III.

From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Mon May  4 03:47:56 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 18:47:56 +1000
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
Message-ID: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>

 

I'm wondering if anyone on the list has much experience recovering data from
old cassette tapes?

 

The tape to be read is a single cold-start tape that was found sitting the
B1900 system picked up by Noel Chiappa just recently.

 

Given the tape's importance, I'd rather not fry it or blow limited
opportunities by attempting it myself!

 

- Evan


From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Mon May  4 05:20:44 2015
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 10:20:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GE TermiNet Models 310-340: scanned manuals
Message-ID: <1989975908.1591368.1430734844664.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello everybody,

related to the recent posts on the GE TermiNet 300, I uploaded my scanned TermiNet documents to the bitsavers ftp-server maintained by Al. Hoewever, while going through the docs, I realized that these are for the later line printer models 310, 320, 330, 340, and not for model 300, apologies for potentially created hopes and confusions. But in any way, adding these to the documents list cannot harm :)

Kind regards,
Pierre

 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Mon May  4 06:25:40 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 13:25:40 +0200
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
In-Reply-To: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
Message-ID: <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Evan Linwood
> Verzonden: maandag 4 mei 2015 10:48
> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Cassette tape data recovery
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone on the list has much experience recovering data
from
> old cassette tapes?
> 
> 
> 
> The tape to be read is a single cold-start tape that was found sitting the
> B1900 system picked up by Noel Chiappa just recently.
> 
> 
> 
> Given the tape's importance, I'd rather not fry it or blow limited
opportunities by
> attempting it myself!
> 
> 
> 
> - Evan

If you're talking about compact cassettes, like C60/C90 or the data variant
like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable good.
I've some original HP cassettes for the HP 9830A which are from the early
seventies, all of them hold their data and are working perfect.
The only thing is the cushion which presses the tape to the head, sometimes
they used foam for those. You should replace them .
If you have a normal cassette recorder (old one) you could remove the head
and spool (slow speed) the tape some times to see if it's spools smoothly.
If it doesn't spool smoothly, open op the tape and replace the housing, that
should do the trick.
Copying will another problem because you will need a drive with the same
head configuration, you could try to use an audio card to digitize the tape
and store it for later use.
NB. Use gloves when you handle the tape, to prevent dead spots on the tape. 

-Rik


From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Mon May  4 06:52:54 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 04:52:54 -0700
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <51C23A0D91E94C7FBEBA69B69BE896CF@Vincew7>

From: Jack Rubin: Sunday, May 03, 2015 7:09 PM
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the 
> location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just 
> manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They 
> had a _lot_ of locations!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwkw91ao/DEC_Sites_1993_PhoneDirectory.pdf?dl=0

    Vince 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May  4 07:38:31 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 May 2015 08:38:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
Message-ID: <20150504123831.7CB7518C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Seth Morabito

    > 1. Halt the CPU and enter ODT

I'm too lazy to check to confirm this, but I strongly suspect DMA requests
don't get serviced while the machine is halted. If so, you could use the
following code fragment to avoid that:

	0400	12737	MOV	#400, @#174400
		400
		174400
		777	BR	.

Start at 0400, let it run for a couple of seconds, then halt the machine
and look at 01000 and up.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May  4 07:40:44 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 08:40:44 -0400
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
In-Reply-To: <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
 <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <2F5E6DC0-5A62-42C1-B329-4A54921878EE@comcast.net>


> On May 4, 2015, at 7:25 AM, Rik Bos <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> ...
> If you're talking about compact cassettes, like C60/C90 or the data variant
> like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable good.

Mostly true, except for one brand: every one of 20 or so Fuji casettes I have failed totally (audio shot beyond repair) within 15 years or so.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May  4 07:44:49 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 08:44:49 -0400
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150504123831.7CB7518C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150504123831.7CB7518C0D4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <AAD14BB6-6488-4482-BB8A-17BA9904BC53@comcast.net>


> On May 4, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Seth Morabito
> 
>> 1. Halt the CPU and enter ODT
> 
> I'm too lazy to check to confirm this, but I strongly suspect DMA requests
> don't get serviced while the machine is halted.

Correct.  

	paul



From williams.dan at gmail.com  Mon May  4 08:30:26 2015
From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 14:30:26 +0100
Subject: Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
Message-ID: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Due to a change in circumstances, I need to downsize my collection.

Most of this stuff has been given to me free by other members of this
group. It is first come first served, but if you gave it to me and want it
back, obviously you have first shot.


It is located in Piccadilly in London, and for the bigger stuff will need
to be picked up before 11am any day inc. weekends. I also need to move it
within 3 weeks.
I have a busted hip at the moment so I can't help lift anything and they
are located on the 2nd Floor.

Now thats dealt with here's what I have :


aMicrovax 3400
2x Vax 4000-200 (One has a broken PSU)
Hp zx6000 (No drives)
SGI GDM17e11 CRT
2x DECserver 300
5x DECsystem 3100 (Think they are all dead, have never managed to get them
to go past diagnostics)
5x Gould os 3500 Oscilloscopes - All working but not been calibrated for
years.
Sgi Indy
Massive box of DEC Cables, mostly DSSI
Intel MDS - Non working, powers up but nothing happens
2x Alphaserver ES45 - These are HEAVY





Let me know if you want it..


Dan

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon May  4 09:39:52 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:39:52 +0200
Subject: GE TermiNet Models 310-340: scanned manuals
In-Reply-To: <1989975908.1591368.1430734844664.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1989975908.1591368.1430734844664.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS304CBD0B42A68C0A86FBD486D20@phx.gbl>

Thanks Pierre,

I am looking forward to see the TermiNet 340 documents in the 'ge' folder!

- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: P Gebhardt
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 12:20 PM
To: cctalk ; Al Kossow
Subject: GE TermiNet Models 310-340: scanned manuals

Hello everybody,

related to the recent posts on the GE TermiNet 300, I uploaded my scanned 
TermiNet documents to the bitsavers ftp-server maintained by Al. Hoewever, 
while going through the docs, I realized that these are for the later line 
printer models 310, 320, 330, 340, and not for model 300, apologies for 
potentially created hopes and confusions. But in any way, adding these to 
the documents list cannot harm :)

Kind regards,
Pierre


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: 
http://www.digitalheritage.de 


From ian at platinum.net  Mon May  4 09:43:43 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 07:43:43 -0700
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
In-Reply-To: <51C23A0D91E94C7FBEBA69B69BE896CF@Vincew7>
References: <CY1PR05MB1948A7C62E34B0E9A4FFD2D4D2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <51C23A0D91E94C7FBEBA69B69BE896CF@Vincew7>
Message-ID: <BC2531D0-2658-4471-8F64-9206D6CD0111@platinum.net>

Wow, that?s quite the list!

I guess I have my work cut out for me to update my page :)

It would be neat to find open/close dates, pictures, etc for each location. Now that would be a lot of work.

Ian

> On May 4, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Jack Rubin: Sunday, May 03, 2015 7:09 PM
>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my original query. This link is to the location list in DEC's 1993 internal directory - obviously more than just manufacturing - https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwk...ctory.pdf?dl=0 . They had a _lot_ of locations!
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/szitkbpfwkw91ao/DEC_Sites_1993_PhoneDirectory.pdf?dl=0
> 
>   Vince 
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=27AAAAE2F25411E4A03BD33493ED0201


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Mon May  4 09:56:40 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:56:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>

[Yes, I'm top-posting after re-threading...unusual for me, that's for 
certain, but this isn't the sort of thing I'd normally post and I want my 
response to this up top.]

Mr. Brutman,

This thread was pretty well over and done with until your post below. Your 
reply is in no way helpful, nor can it be taken as any sort of "peace 
offering" with regards to the long-running feud between yourself and Mr. 
Stein. I am also not about to allow your comment of "There are people 
writing me notes of encouragement too." to stand.

To clarify for others unaware, knowing both parties involved, I contacted 
both privately earlier last week and heard both "sides" of the story.

As far as I'm concerned, neither of you are blameless. You both have a 
history of goading at each other and the forum link below and many other 
public exchanges between the two of you make that quite clear. Heck, the 
emails I received independently from the both of you try quite hard to 
manipulate the facts and paint yourselves as being victims of each other.

Mr. Stein, you had to know you were going to piss Mr. Brutman off again 
with that last forum exchange and get him to ban you. Mr. Brutman, you had 
to know banning Mr. Stein was only going to cause this to flare up again. 
Neither of you are victims and neither of you are blameless.

As I've previously mentioned to both of you, the two of you either need to 
hash this out and squash it, or you need to ignore each other 
completely...don't reply to, acknowledge, or even read each others' posts, 
pretend the other party doesn't even exist.

While I think it would probably be better if you both could settle your 
differences, if there is an inherent personality conflict, the two of you 
may have to just settle for ignoring each other completely.

Stop squabbling like a couple of children. [Mooooommmmy, so-and-so put 
bugs in my hair!] You are both grown ass men...settle this and act like 
it.


On Sun, 3 May 2015, Michael Brutman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As some of you know, Mike Brutman recently kicked me off Erik Klein's 
>> excellent Vintage Computer Forum, for no reason other than Mike's ego 
>> and the chip on his shoulder as far as I and the folks who wrote me 
>> unsolicited notes of support can tell:
>>
>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45454-5162-serial-port-9600bps-interlink-use-xcopy-with-v
>>
>> Apparently some folks also wrote to Erik on my behalf, but he's chosen 
>> to not reply...
>>
>> Be that as it may and aside from the embarrassment and Mike's insults, 
>> no problem; more time to spend elsewhere and an excuse to finally get 
>> rid of the PC-related systems, motherboards, cards, disks & drives, 
>> docs etc. that I've been hanging on to for close to 40 years in case 
>> someone might need/want something some day.
>>
>> But being cut off arbitrarily and without warning or recourse from my 
>> contacts and email archive at VCF might affect some other folks; among 
>> other things, I have here, boxed and ready for shipping to someone on 
>> VCF but no idea to whom, the following items:
>
>
> Not to add too much to the drama but I don't think this should go unsaid:
>
> 1. It saddens me that part of your hobby is being ruined for you.  You know
> what?  It saddens other people that you are ruining things for them too.
> So stop with the constant nitpicking and snark, especially when replying to
> people you already "have a history" with, and things like this won't
> happen.  Nobody is winning here.
>
> 2. The history is much longer and much deeper than the referenced thread.
> Pointing out the tip of the iceberg and commenting on how that should not
> have sunk a ship is deceptive.  This history goes back four years and it
> involves a few other members too.  The cycle of flare-up, bans,
> discussions, and un-bans has gotten old.  And none of it has been done in a
> vacuum - Erik is usually involved.
>
> 3. You consider my behavior insulting?  I consider your behavior insulting
> too.  There are people writing me notes of encouragement too.  None of this
> means anything.
>
> 4. I've contacted Erik (again) to have him make a decision.  He is not
> responding, so I assume he is attending to real life.  Want back in?  Fine,
> let's talk in private - mbbrutman at gmail.com.  Or wait for Erik.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May  4 10:56:53 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:56:53 +0100
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DECtec [mailto:dectec-bounces at dectec.info] On Behalf Of Dan Williams
> Sent: 04 May 2015 14:30
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; DEC discussion list.
> Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Due to a change in circumstances, I need to downsize my collection.
> 
> Most of this stuff has been given to me free by other members of this
group. It
> is first come first served, but if you gave it to me and want it back,
obviously
> you have first shot.
> 
> 
> It is located in Piccadilly in London, and for the bigger stuff will need
to be
> picked up before 11am any day inc. weekends. I also need to move it within
3
> weeks.
> I have a busted hip at the moment so I can't help lift anything and they
are
> located on the 2nd Floor.
> 
> Now thats dealt with here's what I have :
> 
> 
> aMicrovax 3400
> 2x Vax 4000-200 (One has a broken PSU)
> Hp zx6000 (No drives)
> SGI GDM17e11 CRT
> 2x DECserver 300
> 5x DECsystem 3100 (Think they are all dead, have never managed to get them
> to go past diagnostics) 5x Gould os 3500 Oscilloscopes - All working but
not
> been calibrated for years.
> Sgi Indy
> Massive box of DEC Cables, mostly DSSI
> Intel MDS - Non working, powers up but nothing happens 2x Alphaserver ES45
-
> These are HEAVY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if you want it..
> 

I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I am not
sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope it all gets a
good home.

Regards

Rob



From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May  4 11:43:51 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 17:43:51 +0100
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <5547A1C7.3030503@btinternet.com>

As you say both have much to ansvwer for.
That being so then remove both from whatever list(s) until such time as 
they resolve a petty dispute that is without merit in both cases.
That way the rest of who get on just fine don't have to listen to any 
more of this nonsense.

Rod Smallwood


On 04/05/2015 15:56, Tothwolf wrote:
> [Yes, I'm top-posting after re-threading...unusual for me, that's for 
> certain, but this isn't the sort of thing I'd normally post and I want 
> my response to this up top.]
>
> Mr. Brutman,
>
> This thread was pretty well over and done with until your post below. 
> Your reply is in no way helpful, nor can it be taken as any sort of 
> "peace offering" with regards to the long-running feud between 
> yourself and Mr. Stein. I am also not about to allow your comment of 
> "There are people writing me notes of encouragement too." to stand.
>
> To clarify for others unaware, knowing both parties involved, I 
> contacted both privately earlier last week and heard both "sides" of 
> the story.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, neither of you are blameless. You both have a 
> history of goading at each other and the forum link below and many 
> other public exchanges between the two of you make that quite clear. 
> Heck, the emails I received independently from the both of you try 
> quite hard to manipulate the facts and paint yourselves as being 
> victims of each other.
>
> Mr. Stein, you had to know you were going to piss Mr. Brutman off 
> again with that last forum exchange and get him to ban you. Mr. 
> Brutman, you had to know banning Mr. Stein was only going to cause 
> this to flare up again. Neither of you are victims and neither of you 
> are blameless.
>
> As I've previously mentioned to both of you, the two of you either 
> need to hash this out and squash it, or you need to ignore each other 
> completely...don't reply to, acknowledge, or even read each others' 
> posts, pretend the other party doesn't even exist.
>
> While I think it would probably be better if you both could settle 
> your differences, if there is an inherent personality conflict, the 
> two of you may have to just settle for ignoring each other completely.
>
> Stop squabbling like a couple of children. [Mooooommmmy, so-and-so put 
> bugs in my hair!] You are both grown ass men...settle this and act 
> like it.
>
>
> On Sun, 3 May 2015, Michael Brutman wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As some of you know, Mike Brutman recently kicked me off Erik 
>>> Klein's excellent Vintage Computer Forum, for no reason other than 
>>> Mike's ego and the chip on his shoulder as far as I and the folks 
>>> who wrote me unsolicited notes of support can tell:
>>>
>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?45454-5162-serial-port-9600bps-interlink-use-xcopy-with-v 
>>>
>>>
>>> Apparently some folks also wrote to Erik on my behalf, but he's 
>>> chosen to not reply...
>>>
>>> Be that as it may and aside from the embarrassment and Mike's 
>>> insults, no problem; more time to spend elsewhere and an excuse to 
>>> finally get rid of the PC-related systems, motherboards, cards, 
>>> disks & drives, docs etc. that I've been hanging on to for close to 
>>> 40 years in case someone might need/want something some day.
>>>
>>> But being cut off arbitrarily and without warning or recourse from 
>>> my contacts and email archive at VCF might affect some other folks; 
>>> among other things, I have here, boxed and ready for shipping to 
>>> someone on VCF but no idea to whom, the following items:
>>
>>
>> Not to add too much to the drama but I don't think this should go 
>> unsaid:
>>
>> 1. It saddens me that part of your hobby is being ruined for you.  
>> You know
>> what?  It saddens other people that you are ruining things for them too.
>> So stop with the constant nitpicking and snark, especially when 
>> replying to
>> people you already "have a history" with, and things like this won't
>> happen.  Nobody is winning here.
>>
>> 2. The history is much longer and much deeper than the referenced 
>> thread.
>> Pointing out the tip of the iceberg and commenting on how that should 
>> not
>> have sunk a ship is deceptive.  This history goes back four years and it
>> involves a few other members too.  The cycle of flare-up, bans,
>> discussions, and un-bans has gotten old.  And none of it has been 
>> done in a
>> vacuum - Erik is usually involved.
>>
>> 3. You consider my behavior insulting?  I consider your behavior 
>> insulting
>> too.  There are people writing me notes of encouragement too. None of 
>> this
>> means anything.
>>
>> 4. I've contacted Erik (again) to have him make a decision.  He is not
>> responding, so I assume he is attending to real life.  Want back in?  
>> Fine,
>> let's talk in private - mbbrutman at gmail.com.  Or wait for Erik.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon May  4 11:47:20 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:47:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <5547A1C7.3030503@btinternet.com>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <5547A1C7.3030503@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505040946280.7822@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 4 May 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote:

> As you say both have much to ansvwer for.
> That being so then remove both from whatever list(s) until such time as they 
> resolve a petty dispute that is without merit in both cases.
> That way the rest of who get on just fine don't have to listen to any more of 
> this nonsense.
>

STAAAAAAAAAAHP!

(this thread and top posting)

HTH.  HAND.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From lists at loomcom.com  Mon May  4 11:56:49 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 11:56:49 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150504060544.GA10192@loomcom.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLoG06uMSzos3y_Lv3+05gWDoOOiQwcfNo7816s0vjf-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150504060544.GA10192@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <20150504165649.GA9020@loomcom.com>

Well now I have egg on my face...

* On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 01:05:44AM -0500, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
> Drat, it doesn't seem to work. Here's the procedure I tried:
> 
> 1. Halt the CPU and enter ODT
> 2. 17774400/000201 400
> 3. Set halt button back to Run
> 4. Examine 1000 and up... nothing there but 000000's and 177777's
> 

No, actually it DOES work. As is often the case in these situations,
the failure was human error. I miscounted my QBUS slots and had this
in the A&B slots of row 5 of the backplane, with nothing in C&D -- no
DMA grant continuity! I switched it to C&D of row 5, and now it works:

@ 17774400/000201 400
@ 1000g
IAX 3.2 (C) 1984 TD Systems
 B  Boot
 C  Configuration
 D  Display
 E  Exercise
 F  Format
 S  SCSI Cmd
 T  Test TDL
 W  Write BSF
DMON=

Now getting it to talk to my SCSI ZIP disk will be another exercise
entirely. So far it's not working, but I anticipate human error there
as well.

-Seth

From FRED at MISER.MISERNET.NET  Mon May  4 13:01:08 2015
From: FRED at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 13:01:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: IBM Mainframe
Message-ID: <01PLKSPHSF248WX4WR@MISER.MISERNET.NET>

>I just received my first IBM mainframe.  It's an IBM Multiprise 3000 
>model 7060-H30.  It's a a P/390 class machine.  It has 6 18GB drives and 
>3 9 GB drives.  I'll be posting some pictures on my website soon.

*drool*

I was watching that also on ebay.  Almost went for it.  Almost. :)  I am glad
it went to a good home.

Fred




From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon May  4 12:29:53 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:29:53 -0500
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Many of the PDP-11s in the 70s/80s were built in the DEC plants in Puerto Rico (Aguadilla
> and San German). DEC ran their own charter aircraft between Worcester and Puerto Rico

As a fun aside, one of the PR plants, as well a PDP-8e and some board
assembly, has a brief cameo in the Mystery Science Theater 3000 short
"Progress Island USA."  I've cued up the scene at the time marker
here:

https://youtu.be/ZlyaVk8PKwQ?t=532

Although I've seen that short a dozen times, it was only just now that
I noticed the Perkin-Elmer building, too.

Don - what was the deal with the UFO parked out front?

-j

From j at ckrubin.us  Mon May  4 12:41:21 2015
From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:41:21 +0000
Subject: DEC Manufacturing Locations
Message-ID: <CY1PR05MB194880B3D3DF0B6473E1D30AD2D20@CY1PR05MB1948.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Sorry for the munged URL and thanks to Vince for providing the full address. If you missed it first time, here it is again:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?47402-Place-of-manufacture-for-DEC-equipment&p=365896#post365896

I take the list in digest form to minimize the potential for ADD distractions; it also means that there is a lot of latency in my response time. 

Jack

From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon May  4 12:43:09 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:43:09 -0500
Subject: Heath ET-3400 / ETA-3400 Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
References: <CAFjrmd4WMMgrf1s-5da8pOfVBGYO2ZjztfU6hw18jS4rKOoJEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546BCBC.3000308@att.net>
 <CAFjrmd4CgxjXk8e+J=GbWTWrmdyj467Dkx48yEEqaJTeNKNnpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <D3247EC8-C6F3-4C59-B018-167F3F630079@bu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHDqsRxqR2P=bOkQo6_nb11TDZOnQrV5Av_wntAS_+n1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Hagstrom, Paul <hagstrom at bu.edu> wrote:
> I snagged a copy of them a while back from the Yahoo group and put them in my Dropbox hierarchy.  Not my scans, I don't have the originals.
>
> Assembly manual in two parts:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-1of2.pdf
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34mio-2of2.pdf
>
> Software manual in two parts:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-1of2.pdf
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/391444/Vintage/heathkit/et-3400/yahoo-group/e34miosw-2of2.pdf

Hope no one minds the repost but I have compiled the two-parters into
single docs and OCR'd them, as well as de-skewing and cropping the
schematic.  New files are posted here:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Heathkit

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May  4 12:54:10 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 May 2015 13:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
Message-ID: <20150504175410.687CE18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Seth Morabito

    > Well now I have egg on my face...

Don't worry, you're not the only one... :-)

    > No, actually it DOES work. 

Wow. Live and learn.

Or maybe actually DMA indeed _doesn't_ work with the CPU stopped, and what
happened was that the DMA request was waiting in the card, and as soon as the
processor started, it did the DMA? But how did the first instruction fetch
produce a valid instruction? Unless the first DMA cycle (to 01000) happened
before the processor fetched the first instruction?

I'll have to try throwing a 'scope on a QBUS and manually (via ODT) starting
a DMA transfer, with the CPU halted... see what (if anything) happens.

	Noel

From wilson at dbit.com  Mon May  4 13:34:57 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 14:34:57 -0400
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150504175410.687CE18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150504175410.687CE18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150504183457.GA11034@dbit.dbit.com>

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 01:54:10PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>Or maybe actually DMA indeed _doesn't_ work with the CPU stopped, and what
>happened was that the DMA request was waiting in the card, and as soon as the
>processor started, it did the DMA? But how did the first instruction fetch
>produce a valid instruction? Unless the first DMA cycle (to 01000) happened
>before the processor fetched the first instruction?

Ow my head!  I'm probably insane, but I have a hazy feeling that
arbitrating DMA while halted might be CPU-model-dependent thing?  Also,
different models can have different definitions of "halted".  The Q-bus
CPUs have uODT so they're mostly alive even when they aren't.  The older
models might be different -- not that it would matter if you're using one
with a ROM console emulator (so it's not halted at all when you're typing
"L 172150" etc.), but I wouldn't know what to expect with a lights 'n
switches console with the "HALT" switch flipped.  Then again, I also
don't know whether the DMA arbitration is usually done in microcode
or by external hardware.

John Wilson
D Bit

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May  4 13:40:24 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 11:40:24 -0700
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150504165649.GA9020@loomcom.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503204959.GA3235@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLoG06uMSzos3y_Lv3+05gWDoOOiQwcfNo7816s0vjf-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150504060544.GA10192@loomcom.com>
 <20150504165649.GA9020@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLt+seCSJyjejsJYc6+1ubVzsQCdBVWuaXrpG4gSOwcgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> No, actually it DOES work. As is often the case in these situations,
> the failure was human error. I miscounted my QBUS slots and had this
> in the A&B slots of row 5 of the backplane, with nothing in C&D -- no
> DMA grant continuity! I switched it to C&D of row 5, and now it works:
>
> @ 17774400/000201 400
> @ 1000g
> IAX 3.2 (C) 1984 TD Systems
>  B  Boot
>  C  Configuration
>  D  Display
>  E  Exercise
>  F  Format
>  S  SCSI Cmd
>  T  Test TDL
>  W  Write BSF
> DMON=
>
> Now getting it to talk to my SCSI ZIP disk will be another exercise
> entirely. So far it's not working, but I anticipate human error there
> as well.
>
> -Seth

Nice that you were able to get some basic signs of life from the
TDL-11. I don't think I tried a SCSI ZIP drive with the TDL-12, just a
standard hard drive and didn't have any issues that I can remember
getting that to work. The TDL-12 manual says it works with SCSI
addresses from 0-3. Does the SCSI ZIP drive (at least the external
one) only allow you to select SCSI address of 5 or 6, if I remember
correctly?

On the TDL-12 you can configure a single physical drive to appear as
up to four RL drives. I haven't looked at the TDL-11 firmware enough
to see if it should allow the same.

If you get it all working it is a useful setup to have around since it
allows you to run older OS versions which don't have native MSCP
controller support.

-Glen

From scaron at umich.edu  Mon May  4 09:37:33 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 10:37:33 -0400
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR45AWPafeK5syaat0wHQ3b--OY4Cga6jw1yxtovtkFtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150503021731.GA11336@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwLnb1VLx-7xYH89WUregg4+2gD_QgSehHEDnzZRzuUzOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150503054155.GA31619@loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwKJC9C7sx_XuVPpfGEswFz6JG_32PHPPpDc=e6MLD2a2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUHUcx8wRoDRs9AMvPwi5KJnGjfSomn6kAZBmp=P3-dog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR45AWPafeK5syaat0wHQ3b--OY4Cga6jw1yxtovtkFtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWP1RSaFRagLGUCM5LJm1OqHwEryY219dWLejySSvCnXA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, ambiguous, nothing wrong with the Z8400 or the Z80 in general; fine
architecture; I was just contrasting the more "ambiguous" design of a card
like that which is under discussion, to something that's just got an NCR
5380 or similar on it, that just jumps out at you and yells "SCSI!"

Best,

Sean


On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:41 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
> > That this one turned out to be SCSI with the strange Z8400 CPU
>
> What's strange about a Z8400? That's a normal Z80 CPU. If there are
> two additional digits after "8400", that's the rated speed in MHz, as
> opposed to the older alpha scheme (Z80 = 2.5 MHz, Z80A = 4 MHz, Z80B =
> 6 MHz, Z80H = 8 MHz).
>

From mbbrutman at brutman.com  Mon May  4 11:22:05 2015
From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:22:05 -0700
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CA+bZ4SCAD25vXKGxr0YrE62ZqCyC=ZsEZikm9LpXy1gYF3EeJg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.

I think I am allowed one response in a thread where the first sentence
starts with my name.  My apologies.

Regards,
Mike

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon May  4 15:34:19 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:34:19 -0400
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <CA+bZ4SCSWqb8on1YS0SsxPsWMrDLs4O-cjsjXj4O13ijiq7pnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505040904110.6763@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <5547A1C7.3030503@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505040946280.7822@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <294AFBA6901248E79F726BEA5B6255D1@310e2>

I haven't heard from any of the folks on VCF
originally looking for these items; apologies for
the noise caused by my mentioning why I was
looking for them here on CCtalk instead.

But I did manage to find the person looking for
the keyboard, and the other items as well as those
in the follow-up post have all found good homes
with members of this list instead, so all's well.

It's an ill wind etc...

m


From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Mon May  4 16:45:05 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 15:45:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

Hi computer fans,

I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.

They are located in Alberta Canada.

This is a large and heavy load with or without the binders.  But who knows,
maybe somebody out there wants such an artifact?

I also have some spare boards and other parts for a VAX 4000 Model 500 if
anybody has an interest in such things.  They are smaller and lighter than
the doc set.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon May  4 18:06:40 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 01:06:40 +0200
Subject: London collector clearing out
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHnZhTxzuOSGG+DHiXs3aD5EiBbQfpq_gwE_dHBB7x3bw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/34u6m1/free_machines_offered_in_london/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Mon May  4 18:41:26 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:41:26 -0700
Subject: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHnZhTxzuOSGG+DHiXs3aD5EiBbQfpq_gwE_dHBB7x3bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1430782886.55907.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Its amazing how my posts on my reddit group seem to find their way around.?

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
Date:Mon, May 4, 2015 at 7:06 PM
Subject:London collector clearing out

http://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/34u6m1/free_machines_offered_in_london/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Mon May  4 18:41:26 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:41:26 -0700
Subject: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHnZhTxzuOSGG+DHiXs3aD5EiBbQfpq_gwE_dHBB7x3bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1430782886.55907.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Its amazing how my posts on my reddit group seem to find their way around.?

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
Date:Mon, May 4, 2015 at 7:06 PM
Subject:London collector clearing out

http://www.reddit.com/r/computercollecting/comments/34u6m1/free_machines_offered_in_london/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Mon May  4 19:02:49 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:02:49 -0300
Subject: Creating a floppy drive exerciser
Message-ID: <20C0337F659E47688EDD0B3DE8B782AE@deskjara>


    Well, things came to a point I have NO 360K drive I can attest it is 
working properly and aligned.

    I have some AAD alignement diskettes, but I need something to exercise 
the drive. Google seems not to know what a "floppy drive exerciser" is. Do 
people have some tips of schematics, programs, or will I have to roll my 
own? :)

    Thanks!

---
Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique)
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com





From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Mon May  4 19:11:05 2015
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505041710070.76196@orthanc.ca>

> I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
> office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.

But now what will you use to beat the web weenies down the hall?!

From isking at uw.edu  Mon May  4 19:15:13 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:15:13 -0700
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>

What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DECtec [mailto:dectec-bounces at dectec.info] On Behalf Of Dan
> Williams
> > Sent: 04 May 2015 14:30
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; DEC discussion
> list.
> > Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Due to a change in circumstances, I need to downsize my collection.
> >
> > Most of this stuff has been given to me free by other members of this
> group. It
> > is first come first served, but if you gave it to me and want it back,
> obviously
> > you have first shot.
> >
> >
> > It is located in Piccadilly in London, and for the bigger stuff will need
> to be
> > picked up before 11am any day inc. weekends. I also need to move it
> within
> 3
> > weeks.
> > I have a busted hip at the moment so I can't help lift anything and they
> are
> > located on the 2nd Floor.
> >
> > Now thats dealt with here's what I have :
> >
> >
> > aMicrovax 3400
> > 2x Vax 4000-200 (One has a broken PSU)
> > Hp zx6000 (No drives)
> > SGI GDM17e11 CRT
> > 2x DECserver 300
> > 5x DECsystem 3100 (Think they are all dead, have never managed to get
> them
> > to go past diagnostics) 5x Gould os 3500 Oscilloscopes - All working but
> not
> > been calibrated for years.
> > Sgi Indy
> > Massive box of DEC Cables, mostly DSSI
> > Intel MDS - Non working, powers up but nothing happens 2x Alphaserver
> ES45
> -
> > These are HEAVY
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Let me know if you want it..
> >
>
> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I am not
> sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope it all gets a
> good home.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Mon May  4 19:38:12 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 00:38:12 +0000
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E18C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Ian S. King
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 5:15 PM

> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:

>> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I am not
>> sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope it all gets a
>> good home.

> What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?

As I recall, Rob lives near Manchester or other urban center in the North.
Tube's not in it.

Rich

From isking at uw.edu  Mon May  4 19:54:15 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:54:15 -0700
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E18C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E18C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01oJz3jw98d4uEn7NJ340ptTEY2hLQYAQrYD5A3X7FRJw@mail.gmail.com>

You just have to get it to St. Pancras and on the train - how hard can it
be?  :-)

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Rich Alderson <
RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:

> From: Ian S. King
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 5:15 PM
>
> > On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <
> robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I am not
> >> sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope it all gets
> a
> >> good home.
>
> > What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?
>
> As I recall, Rob lives near Manchester or other urban center in the North.
> Tube's not in it.
>
> Rich
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May  4 19:54:49 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 17:54:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Creating a floppy drive exerciser
In-Reply-To: <20C0337F659E47688EDD0B3DE8B782AE@deskjara>
References: <20C0337F659E47688EDD0B3DE8B782AE@deskjara>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505041746230.26318@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 May 2015, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>   Well, things came to a point I have NO 360K drive I can attest it is 
> working properly and aligned.
>   I have some AAD alignement diskettes, but I need something to exercise the 
> drive. Google seems not to know what a "floppy drive exerciser" is. Do people 
> have some tips of schematics, programs, or will I have to roll my own? :)

The CHEAPEST exorcisor, but containing a lot of extraneous other 
"features", such as BASIC in ROM, that are not in a dedicated
exorcisor, is a microcomputer.
You need a 20MHz dual trace scope, the analog alignment diskette,
and enough computer functionality to select the drive, move the
head to the correct track, and issue a READ command.  For the
purposes of using an AAD, the exorcisor does not do anything
other than substitute for a computer.  Some have some other useful
features, but not needed for using an AAD.

A DDD (Digital Diagnostic Diskette) is generally considered to not be
as accurate for alignment as an AAD, but it does not require a scope,
and does require a little bit more software.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May  4 20:41:22 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 20:41:22 -0500
Subject: TD Systems TDL-11 QBUS (SCSI?) card
In-Reply-To: <20150504175410.687CE18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150504175410.687CE18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55481FC2.100@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2015 12:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Seth Morabito
>
>      > Well now I have egg on my face...
>
> Don't worry, you're not the only one... :-)
>
>      > No, actually it DOES work.
>
> Wow. Live and learn.
>
> Or maybe actually DMA indeed _doesn't_ work with the CPU stopped
Yes, some models of the PDP-11 do not handle DMA requests 
when halted.  I'm pretty sure the 11/45 does.
And, I'm pretty sure the 11/05 does NOT, as I recall not 
being able to perform disk requests directly from the console,
but had to write a short program that went into an infinite 
loop after commanding the controller card to perform a transfer.

Jon

From isking at uw.edu  Mon May  4 21:07:41 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 19:07:41 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>

But now he has Perl on his computer.  Eww.

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:12 AM, Philip Lord <philip at neoncluster.com> wrote:

> Perfect?seems to work great!
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> > On May 4, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/4/2015 12:23 AM, Philip Lord wrote:
> >> Thanks again, I?ve never used Perl either, but I just installed it.
> >>
> >> So I saved your script as a textfile called HEX_OCTAL.pl:
> >>
> >> perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
> ")))."\n";'
> >>
> >> But unfortunately I get the following error when I try to run it:
> >>
> >> syntax error at /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl
> line 1, near "n -e "
> >> Execution of /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl
> aborted due to compilation errors.
> >>
> >> Not sure what I?m doing wrong?being a noob, it could be anything!
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >
> > There are two ways to resolve this.
> >
> > First, you just put the command line I gave you into a shell script file
> (call it conv.sh):
> >
> >    #!/bin/bash
> >    perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
> ")))."\n";'
> >
> > Then just type './conv.sh' on the command line to run in interactive
> mode, or './conv.sh < test.dat' to source data from a file test.dat.
> >
> > Or, second, to turn the perl one-liner into a real perl program, it
> needs to be this (call it conv.pl):
> >
> >    #!/usr/bin/perl
> >    while (<>) { print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
> ")))."\n"; }
> >    exit;
> >
> > then you can run this in the same way as above, except type './conv.pl'
> or './conv.pl < test.dat'
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From isking at uw.edu  Mon May  4 21:20:32 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 19:20:32 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
 <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>

No, I am grateful to J?rg for his work and his willingness to share it with
us.  But I actually bought (cheap used) box to run Win7, for those rare
occasions when I want/need to run something that only runs on Windows.
It's always been a pain, especially since every time I fire it up it wants
to spend a half-hour or more fixing things they didn't code right the first
time. WinXP was pretty much the pinnacle of Windows development IMHO, and
it's been a fast toboggan ride into the sewer ever since.

But I'd forgotten about Wine - I usually run Mac OS X these days unless I'm
running something 'interesting'.  (I've been playing with Plan 9 again
lately, and of course VMS.)  Maybe that Win7 machine will get converted to
some Linux flavor?.  -- Ian

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:

> On 05/03/2015 07:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > All true. However, in which way is Windows on a virtual machine any
> different than on a physical machine? It's just as much windows in either
> case.
>
> On the one hand, that's kind of my point - it should work just as well.
> On the other, perhaps limiting the "contagion" to a VM, or not having to
> add a machine to run it, is a win. Or gets people to focus on the fact
> that Joerg shared something nice, even if it requires something that isn't.
>
> It's probably all just reflexive whinging about MSFT, and I shouldn't
> have bothered wasting everybody's bandwidth on a response. Let alone two.
>
> Oh well.
> --S.
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From philip at neoncluster.com  Mon May  4 21:30:05 2015
From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 14:30:05 +1200
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
 <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B32F9015-67AC-479B-8270-C20E5533DD84@neoncluster.com>

Don?what have you go me into!


> On May 5, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> But now he has Perl on his computer.  Eww.
> 
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 1:12 AM, Philip Lord <philip at neoncluster.com> wrote:
> 
>> Perfect?seems to work great!
>> 
>> Thanks!!!
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 5/4/2015 12:23 AM, Philip Lord wrote:
>>>> Thanks again, I?ve never used Perl either, but I just installed it.
>>>> 
>>>> So I saved your script as a textfile called HEX_OCTAL.pl:
>>>> 
>>>> perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
>> ")))."\n";'
>>>> 
>>>> But unfortunately I get the following error when I try to run it:
>>>> 
>>>> syntax error at /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl
>> line 1, near "n -e "
>>>> Execution of /Users/Philip/perl5/perlbrew/Perl_tests/HEX_OCTAL.pl
>> aborted due to compilation errors.
>>>> 
>>>> Not sure what I?m doing wrong?being a noob, it could be anything!
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> There are two ways to resolve this.
>>> 
>>> First, you just put the command line I gave you into a shell script file
>> (call it conv.sh):
>>> 
>>>   #!/bin/bash
>>>   perl -n -e 'print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
>> ")))."\n";'
>>> 
>>> Then just type './conv.sh' on the command line to run in interactive
>> mode, or './conv.sh < test.dat' to source data from a file test.dat.
>>> 
>>> Or, second, to turn the perl one-liner into a real perl program, it
>> needs to be this (call it conv.pl):
>>> 
>>>   #!/usr/bin/perl
>>>   while (<>) { print join(" ",map(sprintf("%03o",hex($_)),split("
>> ")))."\n"; }
>>>   exit;
>>> 
>>> then you can run this in the same way as above, except type './conv.pl'
>> or './conv.pl < test.dat'
>>> 
>>> Don
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> 
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
> 
> University of Washington
> 
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."


From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Mon May  4 22:07:35 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:07:35 +1000
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
In-Reply-To: <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
 <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <003301d086e0$a437c8e0$eca75aa0$@eastek.com.au>

Thanks Rik - actually I don't have the tape yet & so don't know who the tape
manufacturer is. 
The tape is effectively a boot tape & will have been supplied by the
equipment manufacturer, so it's possible the original manufacturer may not
be clear.
I'm hoping it's not as long  as a std C60 or C90 (given the purpose),
shorter is definitely better :)
That's a good point about the gloves thx, as I'll need to check inside the
housing as the machine appears to have been outside for some time.
I'm imagining that old cassette tapes would need to be 'baked' for some time
prior to recovery, as for 9 track tapes - hoping to find out if anyone has
done this!


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos
Sent: Monday, 4 May 2015 9:26 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Cassette tape data recovery



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Evan Linwood
> Verzonden: maandag 4 mei 2015 10:48
> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Cassette tape data recovery
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone on the list has much experience recovering 
> data
from
> old cassette tapes?
> 
> 
> 
> The tape to be read is a single cold-start tape that was found sitting 
> the
> B1900 system picked up by Noel Chiappa just recently.
> 
> 
> 
> Given the tape's importance, I'd rather not fry it or blow limited
opportunities by
> attempting it myself!
> 
> 
> 
> - Evan

If you're talking about compact cassettes, like C60/C90 or the data variant
like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable good.
I've some original HP cassettes for the HP 9830A which are from the early
seventies, all of them hold their data and are working perfect.
The only thing is the cushion which presses the tape to the head, sometimes
they used foam for those. You should replace them .
If you have a normal cassette recorder (old one) you could remove the head
and spool (slow speed) the tape some times to see if it's spools smoothly.
If it doesn't spool smoothly, open op the tape and replace the housing, that
should do the trick.
Copying will another problem because you will need a drive with the same
head configuration, you could try to use an audio card to digitize the tape
and store it for later use.
NB. Use gloves when you handle the tape, to prevent dead spots on the tape. 

-Rik


From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Mon May  4 22:29:34 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:29:34 +1000
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
In-Reply-To: <2F5E6DC0-5A62-42C1-B329-4A54921878EE@comcast.net>
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
 <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
 <2F5E6DC0-5A62-42C1-B329-4A54921878EE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <003401d086e3$b5dea570$219bf050$@eastek.com.au>

Paul,
It sounds like you've still got quite a few tapes, must be some treasures in
there..
Hopefully this tape will be ok (and what's needed!)
- Evan

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: Monday, 4 May 2015 10:41 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Cassette tape data recovery


> On May 4, 2015, at 7:25 AM, Rik Bos <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> ...
> If you're talking about compact cassettes, like C60/C90 or the data 
> variant like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable good.

Mostly true, except for one brand: every one of 20 or so Fuji casettes I
have failed totally (audio shot beyond repair) within 15 years or so.

	paul



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May  4 23:13:21 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 00:13:21 -0400
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
 <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:07 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> But now he has Perl on his computer.  Eww.

Perl is teh awsome!

Seriously, I've banked serious piles of cash hacking Perl.  At least
invisible tabs don't wreck my code.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May  4 23:15:05 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 00:15:05 -0400
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
 <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
 <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimngtfkYOqvmBcLPH9DLb-wN_uV5k6SqWeKu+Q4cTNVh3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> But I'd forgotten about Wine

I mentioned it because there are some applications (Artemis) that have
*compelled* me to run WINE if I don't want to run native Windows.

It's not my first choice, but I'd rather do that than deal with the alternative.

-ethan

From rickb at bensene.com  Mon May  4 23:25:03 2015
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:25:03 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
 <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB465AFDCB@mail.bensene.com>

Ethan Dicks wrote:

> Perl is teh awsome!
> 
> 
I second Ethan's assertion.  Perl is indeed awesome.

-Rick

From isking at uw.edu  Mon May  4 23:36:49 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:36:49 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimngtfkYOqvmBcLPH9DLb-wN_uV5k6SqWeKu+Q4cTNVh3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
 <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
 <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimngtfkYOqvmBcLPH9DLb-wN_uV5k6SqWeKu+Q4cTNVh3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ03wDYpzq1EK0PQWn=o7g_Df20Nx1r33cu9=mbqovMjWSw@mail.gmail.com>

Hm, apparently there's a way to install Wine on a Mac!  Of course, it
requires an Intel processor (monoculture is bad) but they all have that
now.  Installation is running?.

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> > But I'd forgotten about Wine
>
> I mentioned it because there are some applications (Artemis) that have
> *compelled* me to run WINE if I don't want to run native Windows.
>
> It's not my first choice, but I'd rather do that than deal with the
> alternative.
>
> -ethan
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon May  4 23:59:30 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:59:30 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ03wDYpzq1EK0PQWn=o7g_Df20Nx1r33cu9=mbqovMjWSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
 <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
 <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimngtfkYOqvmBcLPH9DLb-wN_uV5k6SqWeKu+Q4cTNVh3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ03wDYpzq1EK0PQWn=o7g_Df20Nx1r33cu9=mbqovMjWSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A01FD72-1745-4391-8BE2-E13C7F376E4F@nf6x.net>


> On May 4, 2015, at 21:36, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hm, apparently there's a way to install Wine on a Mac!  Of course, it
> requires an Intel processor (monoculture is bad) but they all have that
> now.  Installation is running?.

There's also a handy tool called WineBottler which transmogrifies Wine-compatible Windows programs into stand-alone Mac applications:

http://winebottler.kronenberg.org

I have not tried it with PDP11GUI, but there's a good chance that it'll work if PDP11GUI can run under Wine.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon May  4 23:51:02 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 00:51:02 -0400
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
 <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
 <003301d086e0$a437c8e0$eca75aa0$@eastek.com.au>
Message-ID: <984B9AA2A5BA4532A5D6706FDFE4FADC@310e2>

It's presumably a Burroughs Certified Digital
Cassette.

I don't have the tech manual handy but ISTR (and
just confirmed by winding one through my audio
deck) that they are essentially C60s (i.e. 30
minutes/side), but with BOT/EOT holes and funky
flip-over or sliding write protect tabs, as well
as an off-centre notch in the top edge that 
indicates the side. They're driven by the 
wind/rewind motors, i.e. there's no capstan or 
pressure roller.

I've got several boxes of them that I've been
meaning to archive "some day" and they seem to
still be in pretty good shape; the pressure pads
are made of felt, not the notorious disintegrating
foam rubber used in many audio cassettes.

They use two tracks, one for data and one for a
clock; I don't recall for sure whether they're
half or quarter tracks but I *think* they're
quarter tracks.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Linwood" <evan.linwood at eastek.com.au>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Cassette tape data recovery


> Thanks Rik - actually I don't have the tape yet
> & so don't know who the tape
> manufacturer is.
> The tape is effectively a boot tape & will have
> been supplied by the
> equipment manufacturer, so it's possible the
> original manufacturer may not
> be clear.
> I'm hoping it's not as long  as a std C60 or C90
> (given the purpose),
> shorter is definitely better :)
> That's a good point about the gloves thx, as
> I'll need to check inside the
> housing as the machine appears to have been
> outside for some time.
> I'm imagining that old cassette tapes would need
> to be 'baked' for some time
> prior to recovery, as for 9 track tapes - hoping
> to find out if anyone has
> done this!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
> Of Rik Bos
> Sent: Monday, 4 May 2015 9:26 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts'
> Subject: RE: Cassette tape data recovery
>
>
>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: cctalk
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens
>> Evan Linwood
>> Verzonden: maandag 4 mei 2015 10:48
>> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Onderwerp: Cassette tape data recovery
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm wondering if anyone on the list has much
>> experience recovering
>> data
> from
>> old cassette tapes?
>>
>>
>>
>> The tape to be read is a single cold-start tape
>> that was found sitting
>> the
>> B1900 system picked up by Noel Chiappa just
>> recently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Given the tape's importance, I'd rather not fry
>> it or blow limited
> opportunities by
>> attempting it myself!
>>
>>
>>
>> - Evan
>
> If you're talking about compact cassettes, like
> C60/C90 or the data variant
> like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable
> good.
> I've some original HP cassettes for the HP 9830A
> which are from the early
> seventies, all of them hold their data and are
> working perfect.
> The only thing is the cushion which presses the
> tape to the head, sometimes
> they used foam for those. You should replace
> them .
> If you have a normal cassette recorder (old one)
> you could remove the head
> and spool (slow speed) the tape some times to
> see if it's spools smoothly.
> If it doesn't spool smoothly, open op the tape
> and replace the housing, that
> should do the trick.
> Copying will another problem because you will
> need a drive with the same
> head configuration, you could try to use an
> audio card to digitize the tape
> and store it for later use.
> NB. Use gloves when you handle the tape, to
> prevent dead spots on the tape.
>
> -Rik
>


From north at alum.mit.edu  Tue May  5 00:15:04 2015
From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 22:15:04 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
 <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554851D8.3050101@alum.mit.edu>

On 5/4/2015 9:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:07 PM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
>> But now he has Perl on his computer.  Eww.
> Perl is teh awsome!
>
> Seriously, I've banked serious piles of cash hacking Perl.  At least
> invisible tabs don't wreck my code.
>
> -ethan
>

I use three programming languages for anything I do:  C, Perl, and Verilog.
Have found no compelling reason to use any others, except when I have to (like 
TCL ... now that deserves an Eww...)
Assembly language does not count.
Of course I am not a software engineer, so I have no need to use Java, C++, C#, 
ObjC, or other dialects.
YMMV :-)
Don


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue May  5 00:26:39 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 06:26:39 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>


I can remember visiting two plants when they were in full production

Westfield MA: made LA-36's (30cps printing terminal) .
They were tested in large rooms.
A flag on short tube was attached to the carriage and all of the 
terminals driven from the same source.
If a carriage stopped moving you could see it clearly. It ment a failure 
or out of paper.
A golf cart carrying paper, replacement boards and printing units drove 
around  fixing failures and supplying paper.

Galway:  was a systems FA and T plant All of the parts came in on 
chartered cargo planes
   then they were assembed to suit the customers order.
The vast majority of the staff were hired and trained locally. They were 
pretty good too.
However once they managed to get a quad board into a system with two 
sets of fingers in one backplane row
and two in the next row down.


Rod Smallwood



On 04/05/2015 18:29, Jason T wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> Many of the PDP-11s in the 70s/80s were built in the DEC plants in Puerto Rico (Aguadilla
>> and San German). DEC ran their own charter aircraft between Worcester and Puerto Rico
> As a fun aside, one of the PR plants, as well a PDP-8e and some board
> assembly, has a brief cameo in the Mystery Science Theater 3000 short
> "Progress Island USA."  I've cued up the scene at the time marker
> here:
>
> https://youtu.be/ZlyaVk8PKwQ?t=532
>
> Although I've seen that short a dozen times, it was only just now that
> I noticed the Perkin-Elmer building, too.
>
> Don - what was the deal with the UFO parked out front?
>
> -j


From james at attfield.co.uk  Mon May  4 15:15:00 2015
From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 21:15:00 +0100
Subject: Computers_With_BASIC_in_ROM
Message-ID: <00c601d086a7$02138b00$063aa100$@attfield.co.uk>

> However, with the Atari 400 and 800 and the Exidy sorceror, the BASIC ROM
> module was, IIRC, included with the
> machine in the standard configuration (i.e. if you bought an off-the-shelf
> boxed version of one of those, you
> got a BASIC module). Is that really any different from having the ROMs
fitted
> to the main PCB?
>
My Sorcerer came with the BASIC cartridge supplied as standard as did the
one a colleague got. I also recall that this was the standard offering.

James

 


From scaron at umich.edu  Mon May  4 17:06:25 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 18:06:25 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUJV_mexTBqU+hrmnVMZcXHkfCeSNUfKCpuE_SPjJohfA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be happy to pay shipping on the VAX boards (I'm in USA) if nobody else
steps up; if someone's actually got a 4000/500 I'll yield to them; but
failing that I'd be happy to give them a good home.

Best,

Sean


On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Richard Loken <richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca
> wrote:

> Hi computer fans,
>
> I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
> office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.
>
> They are located in Alberta Canada.
>
> This is a large and heavy load with or without the binders.  But who knows,
> maybe somebody out there wants such an artifact?
>
> I also have some spare boards and other parts for a VAX 4000 Model 500 if
> anybody has an interest in such things.  They are smaller and lighter than
> the doc set.
>
> --
>    Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> father
>    Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
>    Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
>    ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston
>
>
>

From david at thecoolbears.org  Mon May  4 17:53:54 2015
From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 15:53:54 -0700
Subject: OS-9 Disks
Message-ID: <5547F882.2010807@thecoolbears.org>

I have a few 5.25 floppies, about 4, that I would really like to have 
imaged. I *think* that they are OS-9 (Microware not Apple) format. I 
don't have a way to do it my self. Is there anyone out there who could 
help out?



From computerdoc at sc.rr.com  Mon May  4 18:23:37 2015
From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 19:23:37 -0400
Subject: OS-9 Disks
In-Reply-To: <5547F882.2010807@thecoolbears.org>
References: <5547F882.2010807@thecoolbears.org>
Message-ID: <000d01d086c1$59b15b70$0d141250$@sc.rr.com>

Hi David,
I can read OS-9 disks all formats.  I'd be happy to help you.

Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc.rr.com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Coolbear
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 6:54 PM
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: OS-9 Disks
> 
> I have a few 5.25 floppies, about 4, that I would really like to have imaged. I *think* that they are OS-9 (Microware not Apple) format.
> I don't have a way to do it my self. Is there anyone out there who could help out?



From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue May  5 01:10:35 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 00:10:35 -0600
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Rod Smallwood
<rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> However once they managed to get a quad board into a system with two sets of
> fingers in one backplane row
> and two in the next row down.

That's quite an impressive feat!

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May  5 02:00:33 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 00:00:33 -0700
Subject: Hex to Octal (3 digit) converer
In-Reply-To: <554851D8.3050101@alum.mit.edu>
References: <84841D6E-460C-4F36-9683-139C37CC3A06@neoncluster.com>
 <55470A9E.4000300@alum.mit.edu>
 <5352C6C1-E6AE-4767-9EEB-B9A6C7EF1127@neoncluster.com>
 <554725B0.7000708@alum.mit.edu>
 <10CF8C60-4A7E-4B87-B222-0C5F2490D446@neoncluster.com>
 <CAKtEJ0333e6Qa_Sg=GxLfR6NiEYv6OxUBsG_ZDvmt_yCbbBe1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkbH66-jDZw1VQ+Onv268+BE5UwJ496_K2R9SDX12EZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <554851D8.3050101@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <55486A91.6050507@sydex.com>

This would be child's play in any language, save GPSS or Prolog, I suppose.

I'm not prejudiced.  I use what's available.  I like having a BASIC 
available for use in immediate mode.  No compilation.

It seems to me that there was a *batch* language based on C for Windows 
and DOS at one point.  The name escapes me, but I'm sure I've used it.

--Chuck


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May  5 03:33:44 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 09:33:44 +0100
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01oJz3jw98d4uEn7NJ340ptTEY2hLQYAQrYD5A3X7FRJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E18C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAKtEJ01oJz3jw98d4uEn7NJ340ptTEY2hLQYAQrYD5A3X7FRJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <102101d0870e$32ea1d40$98be57c0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
> Sent: 05 May 2015 01:54
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
> 
> You just have to get it to St. Pancras and on the train - how hard can it be?  :-)

Well actually for (Greater) Manchester where I and Bob live the appropriate station is Euston.

And having once lugged and small IBM Model -011 manual card punch home from the top of Totenham Court Road in a wheeled suitcase I won't be trying to get a VAX on the train.

If Bob fancies a trip I don't mind driving but my availability is limited, and my free space is approaching zero....


> 
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Rich Alderson <
> RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Ian S. King
> > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 5:15 PM
> >
> > > On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <
> > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I
> > >> am not sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope
> > >> it all gets
> > a
> > >> good home.
> >
> > > What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?
> >
> > As I recall, Rob lives near Manchester or other urban center in the North.
> > Tube's not in it.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School
> <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> 
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value
> Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
> 
> University of Washington
> 
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue May  5 04:38:34 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:34 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>

I think the best one I ever saw was an  LA36 at our Heathrow warehouse.
I worked for the Terminals Product Line and one of my jobs was to go 
with the insurance man
to look at damaged in transit claims.

LA36's were shipped screwed to something like a half sized pallet,
Then a cardboard box with no top or bottom over that and finally a lid  
on top
Then the usual strapping holding lid and box to the pallet.

They would be unloaded off the plane by fork lift truck.
They had managed to get one fork through the cardboard outer,
then through the back of the steel plinth, the two circuit boards inside,
the front of the plinth and then the other side of the box.

I was told that the loss adjuster (who took photos for reference)
  had that picture on his wall for years.

Rod



On 05/05/2015 07:10, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Rod Smallwood
> <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>> However once they managed to get a quad board into a system with two sets of
>> fingers in one backplane row
>> and two in the next row down.
> That's quite an impressive feat!


From radiotest at juno.com  Tue May  5 05:38:21 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 06:38:21 -0400
Subject: Creating a floppy drive exerciser
In-Reply-To: <20C0337F659E47688EDD0B3DE8B782AE@deskjara>
References: <20C0337F659E47688EDD0B3DE8B782AE@deskjara>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150505063107.03d5e798@juno.com>

At 08:02 PM 5/4/2015, Alexandre Souza wrote:

>... I need something to exercise the drive.

On occasion you may see a Digiac model 5504 "Floppy Disk Drive Exerciser" on eBay or offered for sale elsewhere, but it has been a while since I have seen one for sale.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Tue May  5 05:46:17 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 20:46:17 +1000
Subject: Cassette tape data recovery
In-Reply-To: <984B9AA2A5BA4532A5D6706FDFE4FADC@310e2>
References: <002e01d08647$049d1db0$0dd75910$@eastek.com.au>
 <001201d0865d$0e760340$2b6209c0$@xs4all.nl>
 <003301d086e0$a437c8e0$eca75aa0$@eastek.com.au>
 <984B9AA2A5BA4532A5D6706FDFE4FADC@310e2>
Message-ID: <001101d08720$b797da70$26c78f50$@eastek.com.au>

Ah I'd imagined them to be short - but not so (you were spot on Rik).
I didn't expect they'd have BOT/EOT holes (then again I've only dealt with
data cassettes in the context of some early micros)
Interesting that there's no capstan/pressure roller, I haven't seen a
cassette drive like that before.
I'll ask around further re the half/quarter track recording, if they're
quarter track it would be necessary to flip sides at the half way mark?
Thanks for the help!


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stein
Sent: Tuesday, 5 May 2015 2:51 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Cassette tape data recovery

It's presumably a Burroughs Certified Digital Cassette.

I don't have the tech manual handy but ISTR (and just confirmed by winding
one through my audio
deck) that they are essentially C60s (i.e. 30 minutes/side), but with
BOT/EOT holes and funky flip-over or sliding write protect tabs, as well as
an off-centre notch in the top edge that indicates the side. They're driven
by the wind/rewind motors, i.e. there's no capstan or pressure roller.

I've got several boxes of them that I've been meaning to archive "some day"
and they seem to still be in pretty good shape; the pressure pads are made
of felt, not the notorious disintegrating foam rubber used in many audio
cassettes.

They use two tracks, one for data and one for a clock; I don't recall for
sure whether they're half or quarter tracks but I *think* they're quarter
tracks.

m

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Linwood" <evan.linwood at eastek.com.au>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Cassette tape data recovery


> Thanks Rik - actually I don't have the tape yet
> & so don't know who the tape
> manufacturer is.
> The tape is effectively a boot tape & will have
> been supplied by the
> equipment manufacturer, so it's possible the
> original manufacturer may not
> be clear.
> I'm hoping it's not as long  as a std C60 or C90
> (given the purpose),
> shorter is definitely better :)
> That's a good point about the gloves thx, as
> I'll need to check inside the
> housing as the machine appears to have been
> outside for some time.
> I'm imagining that old cassette tapes would need
> to be 'baked' for some time
> prior to recovery, as for 9 track tapes - hoping
> to find out if anyone has
> done this!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf
> Of Rik Bos
> Sent: Monday, 4 May 2015 9:26 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts'
> Subject: RE: Cassette tape data recovery
>
>
>
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: cctalk
>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens
>> Evan Linwood
>> Verzonden: maandag 4 mei 2015 10:48
>> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Onderwerp: Cassette tape data recovery
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm wondering if anyone on the list has much
>> experience recovering
>> data
> from
>> old cassette tapes?
>>
>>
>>
>> The tape to be read is a single cold-start tape
>> that was found sitting
>> the
>> B1900 system picked up by Noel Chiappa just
>> recently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Given the tape's importance, I'd rather not fry
>> it or blow limited
> opportunities by
>> attempting it myself!
>>
>>
>>
>> - Evan
>
> If you're talking about compact cassettes, like
> C60/C90 or the data variant
> like the Philips LGH 6003, they hold remarkable
> good.
> I've some original HP cassettes for the HP 9830A
> which are from the early
> seventies, all of them hold their data and are
> working perfect.
> The only thing is the cushion which presses the
> tape to the head, sometimes
> they used foam for those. You should replace
> them .
> If you have a normal cassette recorder (old one)
> you could remove the head
> and spool (slow speed) the tape some times to
> see if it's spools smoothly.
> If it doesn't spool smoothly, open op the tape
> and replace the housing, that
> should do the trick.
> Copying will another problem because you will
> need a drive with the same
> head configuration, you could try to use an
> audio card to digitize the tape
> and store it for later use.
> NB. Use gloves when you handle the tape, to
> prevent dead spots on the tape.
>
> -Rik
>


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May  5 06:14:57 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:14:57 +0200
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <553FD196.8030906@t-online.de>
 <553FD8A2.1070000@cimmeri.com>
 <CAKtEJ00=k95K=V-eEDS1zjfH6B+J0KkxCZMh+n-X4hX-DgOrtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=a+M4oRycZcMPigFp58nYC-A02xuJqiWQZdQqcx5aFgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546C71C.5030701@crash.com>
 <F5949E1F-3450-44B8-80F0-3E597E7D8999@softjar.se>
 <5546E7BD.8060304@crash.com>
 <CAKtEJ01==8giJZ0aQHB82pZp6NANf_JjLn8kAxmeU=4AA4+B0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFZxXjRJO2+TTQq=m3f_bMKpEBcDDBJp40bE5hTgRV28w@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 May 2015 at 04:20, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> But I'd forgotten about Wine - I usually run Mac OS X these days


You might find this of interest:

https://www.codeweavers.com/

It's a commercial native-Aqua port of WINE for OS X. Run Windows apps
on the Mac desktop without Windows installed or the need for a Windows
licence.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May  5 06:21:24 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:21:24 +0200
Subject: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <1430782886.55907.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAMTenCHnZhTxzuOSGG+DHiXs3aD5EiBbQfpq_gwE_dHBB7x3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1430782886.55907.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGswc=tG4psNpe4v+1ebHW5yano3XX+wtSv-L61PRjNTA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 May 2015 at 01:41, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Its amazing how my posts on my reddit group seem to find their way around.


I didn't know you were 8bitaficionado!

TBH I had suspected that Reddit was a bit too, er, well, young for
most ClassicCmpers... :-)



-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue May  5 07:07:57 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:07:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>

Hi,

I'm trying to setup Apple CP/M on a Corvus Constellation II network drive. 
This requires a support diskette labeled 'A2CPM.1' that I'm unable to find 
anywhere.  It is most likely in Apple Pascal format and contains a file 
named 'A2.DRVR.CPM.221' (along with several others).  I'm reasonably sure 
that the Pascal volume name will be 'A2CPM.1:', or perhaps just 'A2CPM:'.

(It is also possible that there are additional A2CPM.2 or .3 diskettes)

NOTE:

There are (2) Corvus diskette images floating around the web under various 
names that are NOT the correct ones (they're for an older version of the 
Constellation software):

1. Apple Pascal format, volume name 'CSCPM:'
2. Apple CP/M format with BIOS source and a few utilities

Again, neither of these is the correct one.

I can handle any type of Apple image file format.  Would greatly 
appreciate it if someone has these elusive items.

Steve


-- 

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  5 07:15:08 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  5 May 2015 08:15:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: DEC manufacturing locations
Message-ID: <20150505121508.5DC0918C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ian McLaughlin

    > It would be neat to find open/close dates, pictures, etc for each
    > location. 

I recently acquired a mildly interesting book, "Images of America: Digital
Equipment Corporation", by Alan R. Earls, which gives the opening year for a
lot of DEC facilities (and pictures of quite a few). I'm not sure where
his data is from, but that might be a start.

	Noel

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 07:31:08 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 12:31:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGswc=tG4psNpe4v+1ebHW5yano3XX+wtSv-L61PRjNTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCGswc=tG4psNpe4v+1ebHW5yano3XX+wtSv-L61PRjNTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <510528312.239325.1430829068190.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>

> TBH I had suspected that Reddit was a bit too, er, well, young for most ClassicCmpers... :-)

More to the point is that I created that group as a response to many groups, including but not limited to ClassicCMP. Who didn't want all the craigslist, for sale & trade posts.

When I told people here what I created. I got rather nasty responses. So it's amusing to see the link posted here, given the reception I originally received in it's creation. 

I thank Dan for allowing me to repost it to the reddit group. I hope all the machines find good homes. 

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 07:54:19 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 12:54:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
Message-ID: <1773258596.240999.1430830459299.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

For those of you that went. Did anyone post pictures?

From alan at alanlee.org  Tue May  5 08:02:45 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 09:02:45 -0400
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <1773258596.240999.1430830459299.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1773258596.240999.1430830459299.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>

 

I will send out a general call for photos. I'm still sore and tapped for
time from breaking down the huge stage area yesterday. I've set a
personal goal this year of having all the speaker video edited and up on
youtube within 2 weeks. I will do my best to hit it. 

-Alan 

On 2015-05-05 08:54, Christian Liendo wrote: 

> For those of you that went. Did anyone post pictures?
 

From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 08:08:03 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:08:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
References: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Alan Hightower <alan at alanlee.org>

> I've set a personal goal this year of having all the speaker video edited and up on youtube within 2 weeks. I will do my best to hit it. 


Christian likes this. 

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May  5 08:16:57 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 09:16:57 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>


> On May 5, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> I think the best one I ever saw was an  LA36 at our Heathrow warehouse.
> I worked for the Terminals Product Line and one of my jobs was to go with the insurance man
> to look at damaged in transit claims.
> 
> LA36's were shipped screwed to something like a half sized pallet,
> Then a cardboard box with no top or bottom over that and finally a lid  on top
> Then the usual strapping holding lid and box to the pallet.
> 
> They would be unloaded off the plane by fork lift truck.
> They had managed to get one fork through the cardboard outer,
> then through the back of the steel plinth, the two circuit boards inside,
> the front of the plinth and then the other side of the box.

There?s a story (possibly true) about an RP03 that was being air-shipped from Boston airport.  The pallet was not properly strapped down, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the plane started moving but the RP03 stayed in place.  It exited through the rear fuselage and landed on the tarmac, bending the corner of the frame quite a lot.

It was taken back to Maynard for inspection.  The local techs put a couple of bricks under the bent corner and applied power.  The drive worked fine.

	paul


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue May  5 08:50:02 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:50:02 -0500
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
 <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUyhLwTJ4o1PYnuD4+ikYB3o+7Dr_K_OKqSj8fFHfBRcWA@mail.gmail.com>

I uploaded my pictures just now. Enjoy!

http://imgur.com/a/rOWEp

Big thanks to Alan who provided the stage, lighting, sound system, and most
everything involved with that area! It looked *amazing*!

Kyle

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Tue May  5 08:57:24 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 14:57:24 +0100
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUyhLwTJ4o1PYnuD4+ikYB3o+7Dr_K_OKqSj8fFHfBRcWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
 <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAKtEYUyhLwTJ4o1PYnuD4+ikYB3o+7Dr_K_OKqSj8fFHfBRcWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5548CC44.7040807@wickensonline.co.uk>

Great photos Kyle - thanks for sharing!

What's the system on the left in http://i.imgur.com/8xiQe7O.jpg ? It 
looks like a terminal but must be a monitor given the subject matter?

Regards, Mark.

On 05/05/15 14:50, Kyle Owen wrote:
> I uploaded my pictures just now. Enjoy!
>
> http://imgur.com/a/rOWEp
>
> Big thanks to Alan who provided the stage, lighting, sound system, and most
> everything involved with that area! It looked *amazing*!
>
> Kyle


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Tue May  5 09:04:14 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 07:04:14 -0700
Subject: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGswc=tG4psNpe4v+1ebHW5yano3XX+wtSv-L61PRjNTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHnZhTxzuOSGG+DHiXs3aD5EiBbQfpq_gwE_dHBB7x3bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1430782886.55907.YahooMailAndroidMobile@web121306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAMTenCGswc=tG4psNpe4v+1ebHW5yano3XX+wtSv-L61PRjNTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>


On May 5, 2015, at 4:21 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> TBH I had suspected that Reddit was a bit too, er, well, young for
> most ClassicCmpers... :-)

Have you visited http://reddit.com/r/RetroBattlestations? Over 11k subscribers! There?s the occasional whitebox PC posted. Mostly it?s 8-bit computers though. Not too much stuff from the ?70s or earlier gets posted.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May  5 09:08:10 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 16:08:10 +0200
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
 <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5548CECA.1030507@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-05 15:16, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On May 5, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think the best one I ever saw was an  LA36 at our Heathrow warehouse.
>> I worked for the Terminals Product Line and one of my jobs was to go with the insurance man
>> to look at damaged in transit claims.
>>
>> LA36's were shipped screwed to something like a half sized pallet,
>> Then a cardboard box with no top or bottom over that and finally a lid  on top
>> Then the usual strapping holding lid and box to the pallet.
>>
>> They would be unloaded off the plane by fork lift truck.
>> They had managed to get one fork through the cardboard outer,
>> then through the back of the steel plinth, the two circuit boards inside,
>> the front of the plinth and then the other side of the box.
>
> There?s a story (possibly true) about an RP03 that was being air-shipped from Boston airport.  The pallet was not properly strapped down, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the plane started moving but the RP03 stayed in place.  It exited through the rear fuselage and landed on the tarmac, bending the corner of the frame quite a lot.
>
> It was taken back to Maynard for inspection.  The local techs put a couple of bricks under the bent corner and applied power.  The drive worked fine.

I suspect it's not true. While I can believe the drive not being 
properly secured, I do not think it would exit the airplane. Witness the 
military 747 that went down in Afghanistan(?) where the internal cargo 
shifted enough that the plane couldn't fly anymore. The cargo still 
stayed inside the plane, and I suspect that was a hell of a lot more 
than an RP03...

I would expect the RP03 to have been banged up some, though. But maybe 
still working.

	Johnny


From jon at jonworld.com  Tue May  5 09:08:28 2015
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 16:08:28 +0200
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
 <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+3Mb+qrJ+f0YPDMaBiFgyRcS6zPTk6WzZpucdb52X=WBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
> There?s a story (possibly true) about an RP03 that was being air-shipped
> from Boston airport.  The pallet was not properly strapped down, so when
> the plane applied takeoff power, the plane started moving but the RP03
> stayed in place.  It exited through the rear fuselage and landed on the
> tarmac, bending the corner of the frame quite a lot.
>
> It was taken back to Maynard for inspection.  The local techs put a couple
> of bricks under the bent corner and applied power.  The drive worked fine.
>

I spent about 20 minutes combing through the NTSB daatbase to try and find
the aviation incident but came up null. But there are similar stories of
Sun "big iron" being tipped poorly (specifically an SF15k) which "fell" and
went back to Sun. Placed into a lab it started right up without issue. I
believe it become one of the systems used for Sun Education/training
classes.

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue May  5 09:12:45 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 09:12:45 -0500
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <5548CC44.7040807@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
 <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAKtEYUyhLwTJ4o1PYnuD4+ikYB3o+7Dr_K_OKqSj8fFHfBRcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548CC44.7040807@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwgc5=DSZ+hgf6Y4FfsnLD+BK21KTXnyhsAJMAYBWOh5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> What's the system on the left in http://i.imgur.com/8xiQe7O.jpg ? It
> looks like a terminal but must be a monitor given the subject matter?
>

Mark, I have no earthly clue! I can tell you all about the PDP-8s at the
show, but not much of the newer things. I can find out, though.

Kyle

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Tue May  5 09:19:34 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 15:19:34 +0100
Subject: Vintage Computer Fest South East
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUwgc5=DSZ+hgf6Y4FfsnLD+BK21KTXnyhsAJMAYBWOh5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b1a43a421f91243a7b2559dd5fd2e3d6@alanlee.org>
 <769628882.287415.1430831283179.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAKtEYUyhLwTJ4o1PYnuD4+ikYB3o+7Dr_K_OKqSj8fFHfBRcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548CC44.7040807@wickensonline.co.uk>
 <CAKtEYUwgc5=DSZ+hgf6Y4FfsnLD+BK21KTXnyhsAJMAYBWOh5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5548D176.7020903@wickensonline.co.uk>

It looks like some kind of IBM Monitor, possibly not on a stand when 
normally it would be?
The system it is hooked up to is running DOOM so most likely it is an 
8x86 architecture box.

Mark.

On 05/05/15 15:12, Kyle Owen wrote:
> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> What's the system on the left in http://i.imgur.com/8xiQe7O.jpg ? It
>> looks like a terminal but must be a monitor given the subject matter?
>>
> Mark, I have no earthly clue! I can tell you all about the PDP-8s at the
> show, but not much of the newer things. I can find out, though.
>
> Kyle


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue May  5 09:57:54 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 15:57:54 +0100
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <5548CECA.1030507@update.uu.se>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
 <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
 <5548CECA.1030507@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <5548DA72.80705@btinternet.com>

Well the other story I know but can't confirm also concerned a fork lift 
truck and Heathrow.
DEC10's were shipped with the cabs bolted together and sitting on a long 
shipping base.
The cargo plane (CL-44?) had a very wide door and the system could be 
got in at a narrow
angle and secured on the centre line of the plane. This was done with 
the help of a large scissor lift.

At Heathrow they did thereverse. Park the scissor lift at a not quite 
parallel angle to the plane.
Push the system onto the scissor lift and lower to the ground. Then 
crane it onto a low loader for transport to site.

Well one day there was no scissor lift at Heathrow  and the plane was 
needed elsewhere. Some bright spark
had the system pushed up to the doorway and put the lift truck forks 
under the front end.and backed away swinging the front end out of the door.
A second truck  then  put its forks under about two thirds of the way 
down and  backed away.  The back end  cleared the door OK.
Sad to say the forks were not far enough under the system and it fell 
off and went down abount twenty feet.

It was very bent. Then surprise surprise two days later a team from DEC 
10 manufacturing arrived with several pallets of parts and proceed to 
rebuild it then and there.
They did it in a week and  the system was delivered on time  with very 
few knowing what had happed.

Rod Smallwood



On 05/05/2015 15:08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-05-05 15:16, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>> On May 5, 2015, at 5:38 AM, Rod Smallwood 
>>> <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think the best one I ever saw was an  LA36 at our Heathrow warehouse.
>>> I worked for the Terminals Product Line and one of my jobs was to go 
>>> with the insurance man
>>> to look at damaged in transit claims.
>>>
>>> LA36's were shipped screwed to something like a half sized pallet,
>>> Then a cardboard box with no top or bottom over that and finally a 
>>> lid  on top
>>> Then the usual strapping holding lid and box to the pallet.
>>>
>>> They would be unloaded off the plane by fork lift truck.
>>> They had managed to get one fork through the cardboard outer,
>>> then through the back of the steel plinth, the two circuit boards 
>>> inside,
>>> the front of the plinth and then the other side of the box.
>>
>> There?s a story (possibly true) about an RP03 that was being 
>> air-shipped from Boston airport.  The pallet was not properly 
>> strapped down, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the plane 
>> started moving but the RP03 stayed in place.  It exited through the 
>> rear fuselage and landed on the tarmac, bending the corner of the 
>> frame quite a lot.
>>
>> It was taken back to Maynard for inspection.  The local techs put a 
>> couple of bricks under the bent corner and applied power. The drive 
>> worked fine.
>
> I suspect it's not true. While I can believe the drive not being 
> properly secured, I do not think it would exit the airplane. Witness 
> the military 747 that went down in Afghanistan(?) where the internal 
> cargo shifted enough that the plane couldn't fly anymore. The cargo 
> still stayed inside the plane, and I suspect that was a hell of a lot 
> more than an RP03...
>
> I would expect the RP03 to have been banged up some, though. But maybe 
> still working.
>
>     Johnny
>


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Tue May  5 10:11:28 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:11:28 -0500
Subject: RS/6000 (AIX) password reset - Linux?
In-Reply-To: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>
References: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5548DDA0.3070709@gmail.com>

On 05/01/2015 06:47 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> I don't have install media, and I don't know the root password

Follow-up to this; I ended up hooking the AIX drive up to my SGI O2200, 
then writing some quick C code to scan raw disk blocks for potential 
password entries, which left me with ~370 possible blocks.

Those I then transferred over to a Linux machine (I don't have any PC SCSI 
controllers on this side of the Atlantic with which to hook the drive up 
directly) and filtered out a lot of false-positives, leaving me with just 
five blocks.

At the suggestion of another listmember, I ran a password cracker* on the 
remaining data, rather than clearing the passwords and writing raw data 
back to the disk (I don't believe that JFS includes anything which would 
have detected the change and become upset, but it did make more sense to 
just try a cracker first).

* it's a little more involved than that, because of course IBM does things 
differently and the shadow file isn't in the normal format, so needs 
converting first.

Anyway, all good now (except I may still want to do a clean OS install, 
depending on what data's on the machine)

cheers

Jules


From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 10:20:37 2015
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 15:20:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Vintage Computing Reddit was Re: London collector clearing out
In-Reply-To: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
References: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com>
Have you visited http://reddit.com/r/RetroBattlestations? Over 11k subscribers! There?s the occasional whitebox PC posted. Mostly it?s 8-bit computers though. Not too much stuff from the ?70s or earlier gets posted.


Yes and it's a great Sub-Reddit. Here are some others


Vintage Computing  http://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/ 

Retro BattleStations 	http://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/ 

Vintage Computing Literature  http://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputinglit 

History of Computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryOfComputers 


Vintage Apple   http://www.reddit.com/r/VintageApple/ 

Retro Gaming  http://www.reddit.com/r/retrogaming 

Silicon Graphics  http://www.reddit.com/r/SiliconGraphics/ 

Amstrad Computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/Amstrad 

Apple II Computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/Apple2 

Atari 8 Bit Computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/Atari8bit 

Atari ST Bit Computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/AtariST 

The BBC Micro  http://www.reddit.com/r/BBCMicro 

The Commodore 64  http://www.reddit.com/r/C64 

The DOS Gaming Group  http://www.reddit.com/r/DOSGaming 

MSX Computers from Japan  http://www.reddit.com/r/MSX 

The Sharp X68000 from Japan  http://www.reddit.com/r/Sharpx68000 

The Texas Instruments TI99 computers  http://www.reddit.com/r/TI994A 

The Radio Shack TRS80  http://www.reddit.com/r/TRS80 

The ZX Spectrum  http://www.reddit.com/r/ZXSpectrum

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue May  5 10:25:43 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 08:25:43 -0700
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <5548DA72.80705@btinternet.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
 <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
 <5548CECA.1030507@update.uu.se> <5548DA72.80705@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <5548E0F7.7080309@jwsss.com>



On 5/5/2015 7:57 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> Well the other story I know but can't confirm also concerned a fork 
> lift truck
I had an experience @ Microdata in the 70's with a forklift modified 
system.  The opposite was true.  There were two holes the size of the 
forks about even with the 1600 chassis which was mounted in the center 
of the cabinet.  Cabinet was just shy of 6' high.  There was a verical 
mounted reel to reel Microdata drive in the top of the cabinet, and 2 
10mb Marathons (I think RL02 is same) drives in the bottom.

The entire bay and power supply was sheered off, as you could see 
daylight thru the holes.  No boards were useful, and as the forks went 
thru the chassis, most ICs were scraped of leaving just remnants of pins 
on the boards.

The problem with the peripherals was that there was good wiring from the 
peripherals to the controllers in the bay.  As the damage occurred to 
the boards in the bay, in the form of them first all being shoved to one 
side, then finally punched partially out the opposite side of the bay, 
was that we had really good connectors. So the boards in the tape drive, 
and the disk drives were torn so badly that those boards rendered the 
entire system junk.

Only an 8" fan in the top and maybe if you stretched it the breaker box 
in the bottom rear was useful.

That was what the insurance company needed to hear to justify a claim of 
around $100,000 which was what a full Reality went for in the late 70's 
in the heyday.

I had a reputation of trolling scrap bins and building systems in the 
engineering area to play with, but I have to say that one took the cake 
as far as junk.  Not one thing of any use to steal from the cabinet.

The system is one like in this brochure.

http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/367/1984

Jim

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue May  5 09:21:41 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 10:21:41 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+3Mb+qrJ+f0YPDMaBiFgyRcS6zPTk6WzZpucdb52X=WBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
 <51FA9EDA-C8DB-421A-8E30-CC922045E165@comcast.net>
 <CAEOZr+3Mb+qrJ+f0YPDMaBiFgyRcS6zPTk6WzZpucdb52X=WBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXsryaD3CNtEo8o4FhLy4hHSGnTsZ-9Ga4-qPap0wNkjw@mail.gmail.com>

They probably sent it back out the door as an academic donation, LOL. :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > There?s a story (possibly true) about an RP03 that was being air-shipped
> > from Boston airport.  The pallet was not properly strapped down, so when
> > the plane applied takeoff power, the plane started moving but the RP03
> > stayed in place.  It exited through the rear fuselage and landed on the
> > tarmac, bending the corner of the frame quite a lot.
> >
> > It was taken back to Maynard for inspection.  The local techs put a
> couple
> > of bricks under the bent corner and applied power.  The drive worked
> fine.
> >
>
> I spent about 20 minutes combing through the NTSB daatbase to try and find
> the aviation incident but came up null. But there are similar stories of
> Sun "big iron" being tipped poorly (specifically an SF15k) which "fell" and
> went back to Sun. Placed into a lab it started right up without issue. I
> believe it become one of the systems used for Sun Education/training
> classes.
>

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 09:27:29 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>

On 5/4/2015 5:45 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
> Hi computer fans,
>
> I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
> office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.
>
> They are located in Alberta Canada.
>
> This is a large and heavy load with or without the binders.  But who knows,
> maybe somebody out there wants such an artifact?
>
> I also have some spare boards and other parts for a VAX 4000 Model 500 if
> anybody has an interest in such things.  They are smaller and lighter than
> the doc set.
>

May I ask what boards and spare parts in general you have?  I happen to have a nearly bare BA440 chassis that could use some VAX 4000 parts.  Or perhaps there is someone out there that would like to combine their parts, your parts and my chassis to make a while VAX 4000?

I do not particularly need an(other) operating VAX and am willing to part with the chassis if someone can use it.  Unfortunately, it's pretty bare.  I got it from a local guy when I bought a MicroVAX 3100.  He had sold a VAX 4000 Model 300 to someone and all they wanted were the boards.  So he stripped it as instructed and left the chassis. It needs a fan, P/S, console panel, front door(s), storage pods and various cables.  It's basically a box with a backplane.  It's available for pickup in the Cincinnati, Ohio area, or perhaps a meet can be arranged within a few hours drive.

John H. Reinhardt

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Tue May  5 09:27:29 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
Message-ID: <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>

On 5/4/2015 5:45 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
> Hi computer fans,
>
> I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
> office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.
>
> They are located in Alberta Canada.
>
> This is a large and heavy load with or without the binders.  But who knows,
> maybe somebody out there wants such an artifact?
>
> I also have some spare boards and other parts for a VAX 4000 Model 500 if
> anybody has an interest in such things.  They are smaller and lighter than
> the doc set.
>

May I ask what boards and spare parts in general you have?  I happen to have a nearly bare BA440 chassis that could use some VAX 4000 parts.  Or perhaps there is someone out there that would like to combine their parts, your parts and my chassis to make a while VAX 4000?

I do not particularly need an(other) operating VAX and am willing to part with the chassis if someone can use it.  Unfortunately, it's pretty bare.  I got it from a local guy when I bought a MicroVAX 3100.  He had sold a VAX 4000 Model 300 to someone and all they wanted were the boards.  So he stripped it as instructed and left the chassis. It needs a fan, P/S, console panel, front door(s), storage pods and various cables.  It's basically a box with a backplane.  It's available for pickup in the Cincinnati, Ohio area, or perhaps a meet can be arranged within a few hours drive.

John H. Reinhardt

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Tue May  5 10:44:32 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:44:32 -0700
Subject: Vintage Computing Reddit
In-Reply-To: <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
 <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BF7F56FC-A886-4ADE-BC36-DB332C36A1AD@fozztexx.com>


On May 5, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Have you visited http://reddit.com/r/RetroBattlestations? Over 11k subscribers! There?s the occasional whitebox PC posted. Mostly it?s 8-bit computers though. Not too much stuff from the ?70s or earlier gets posted.
> 
> Yes and it's a great Sub-Reddit. Here are some others

Here?s my multi with the 40 retro computing related subreddits that I know about:

    http://www.reddit.com/u/fozztexx/m/retrocomputing

Even combined though all those subreddits are pretty low traffic compared to the cctalk mailing list. And the cctalk list is very quiet compared to the TRS-80 CoCo mailing list!

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From ian at platinum.net  Tue May  5 10:50:54 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:50:54 -0700
Subject: Vintage Computing Reddit
In-Reply-To: <BF7F56FC-A886-4ADE-BC36-DB332C36A1AD@fozztexx.com>
References: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
 <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BF7F56FC-A886-4ADE-BC36-DB332C36A1AD@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <D2188294-3075-41EC-9F68-F6C558CDE925@platinum.net>

Long-time Reddit lurker, but never got into the multi thing.  How on Earth do I subscribe to your multi?  Can?t figure it out!

Ian

> On May 5, 2015, at 8:44 AM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On May 5, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Have you visited http://reddit.com/r/RetroBattlestations? Over 11k subscribers! There?s the occasional whitebox PC posted. Mostly it?s 8-bit computers though. Not too much stuff from the ?70s or earlier gets posted.
>> 
>> Yes and it's a great Sub-Reddit. Here are some others
> 
> Here?s my multi with the 40 retro computing related subreddits that I know about:
> 
>    http://www.reddit.com/u/fozztexx/m/retrocomputing
> 
> Even combined though all those subreddits are pretty low traffic compared to the cctalk mailing list. And the cctalk list is very quiet compared to the TRS-80 CoCo mailing list!
> 
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=A768C18AF33D11E489C3239A93ED0201


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Tue May  5 10:58:08 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:58:08 -0700
Subject: Vintage Computing Reddit
In-Reply-To: <D2188294-3075-41EC-9F68-F6C558CDE925@platinum.net>
References: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
 <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BF7F56FC-A886-4ADE-BC36-DB332C36A1AD@fozztexx.com>
 <D2188294-3075-41EC-9F68-F6C558CDE925@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <0488D6A6-7E15-4815-A204-0B9869652D4C@fozztexx.com>


On May 5, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Ian McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net> wrote:

>> Here?s my multi with the 40 retro computing related subreddits that I know about:
>> 
>>   http://www.reddit.com/u/fozztexx/m/retrocomputing

> Long-time Reddit lurker, but never got into the multi thing.  How on Earth do I subscribe to your multi?  Can?t figure it out!

You can?t subscribe to a multi, you can either bookmark it or copy it. :-/ If you copy it then you won?t get any updates when I add new subreddits.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From ian at platinum.net  Tue May  5 11:03:31 2015
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 09:03:31 -0700
Subject: Vintage Computing Reddit
In-Reply-To: <0488D6A6-7E15-4815-A204-0B9869652D4C@fozztexx.com>
References: <139A7D14-8C7A-443B-88B7-63AEC49AF556@fozztexx.com>
 <987641793.336565.1430839237892.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BF7F56FC-A886-4ADE-BC36-DB332C36A1AD@fozztexx.com>
 <D2188294-3075-41EC-9F68-F6C558CDE925@platinum.net>
 <0488D6A6-7E15-4815-A204-0B9869652D4C@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <1F27B4F7-1FCB-485C-BB56-3C215F83F0CA@platinum.net>


> On May 5, 2015, at 8:58 AM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> You can?t subscribe to a multi, you can either bookmark it or copy it. :-/ If you copy it then you won?t get any updates when I add new subreddits.

Seems like a silly limitation. Maybe this could be a feature enhancement for RES.

From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca  Tue May  5 11:50:14 2015
From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:50:14 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505041710070.76196@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505051041570.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>

On Mon, 4 May 2015, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

> > I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
> > office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.
>
> But now what will you use to beat the web weenies down the hall?!

I have three VMS Alphas beside my desk.  The AS4100 is down until I find the
time to fix the depraved RTC chip, the AS400 is under powered crock with
inadaquate memory, but the AS500 is alive and well and running VMS 8.3 on
which I am typing this very epistle.  I have a coplete VMS 7.1 Doc set at
home and it is perfect bound so it takes up a lot less space than the grey
wall.

RWA was shocked that I proposed to recycle the grey wall and suggested that
I put it in his museum down the hall - below the pdp8/e front panel,
across from the Sun 4 CPU board, and slightly to the right of the ASR33
salvaged out of the Las Vegas IMP.  He also has the vacuum tube IBM module
that I picked up from some forgotten place.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University                            :  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada                       :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca **             :  - Lynn Johnston


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Tue May  5 13:38:38 2015
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 14:38:38 -0400
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
Message-ID: <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com>

I'll check and see what I have Steve, surprised you didn't directly 
email me first.


On 5/5/2015 8:07 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to setup Apple CP/M on a Corvus Constellation II network 
> drive. This requires a support diskette labeled 'A2CPM.1' that I'm 
> unable to find anywhere.  It is most likely in Apple Pascal format and 
> contains a file named 'A2.DRVR.CPM.221' (along with several others).  
> I'm reasonably sure that the Pascal volume name will be 'A2CPM.1:', or 
> perhaps just 'A2CPM:'.
>
> (It is also possible that there are additional A2CPM.2 or .3 diskettes)
>
> NOTE:
>
> There are (2) Corvus diskette images floating around the web under 
> various names that are NOT the correct ones (they're for an older 
> version of the Constellation software):
>
> 1. Apple Pascal format, volume name 'CSCPM:'
> 2. Apple CP/M format with BIOS source and a few utilities
>
> Again, neither of these is the correct one.
>
> I can handle any type of Apple image file format.  Would greatly 
> appreciate it if someone has these elusive items.
>
> Steve
>
>


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Tue May  5 14:12:24 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 12:12:24 -0700
Subject: RS/6000 (AIX) password reset - Linux?
In-Reply-To: <5548DDA0.3070709@gmail.com>
References: <55441085.8070207@gmail.com> <5548DDA0.3070709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11442A99-6B5D-44D0-94D0-0738665AC1FA@gmail.com>

I picked up a Tadpole / IBM N40 recently and this is the exact same methodology I used- if anyone knows of a better way do deal with JFS disks, I'm all ears.

> On May 5, 2015, at 08:11, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/01/2015 06:47 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> I don't have install media, and I don't know the root password
> 
> Follow-up to this; I ended up hooking the AIX drive up to my SGI O2200, then writing some quick C code to scan raw disk blocks for potential password entries, which left me with ~370 possible blocks.
> 
> Those I then transferred over to a Linux machine (I don't have any PC SCSI controllers on this side of the Atlantic with which to hook the drive up directly) and filtered out a lot of false-positives, leaving me with just five blocks.
> 
> At the suggestion of another listmember, I ran a password cracker* on the remaining data, rather than clearing the passwords and writing raw data back to the disk (I don't believe that JFS includes anything which would have detected the change and become upset, but it did make more sense to just try a cracker first).
> 
> * it's a little more involved than that, because of course IBM does things differently and the shadow file isn't in the normal format, so needs converting first.
> 
> Anyway, all good now (except I may still want to do a clean OS install, depending on what data's on the machine)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules
> 

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue May  5 10:59:55 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 11:59:55 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkU=ja632sd2=KGMu_Zr9Htqrph7ZfrKQBkdwmPp6dpQtA@mail.gmail.com>

Does it have the door on?

I'll actually be in Cincy on 5/16 with my girlfriend to attend a wedding of
one of her college friends ... maybe I could make something happen with
your chassis and Richard's boards ... OTOH, I promised my girl I wouldn't
take any more big stuff ... LOL ... I bet a 4000/300 could fit in the trunk
of a DTS.

Not promising anything but let me think about it :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 10:27 AM, John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com
> wrote:

> On 5/4/2015 5:45 PM, Richard Loken wrote:
>
>> Hi computer fans,
>>
>> I have been asked to dispose of the VMS version 5 documentation set in my
>> office.  This consists of 40 grey binders and all their contents.
>>
>> They are located in Alberta Canada.
>>
>> This is a large and heavy load with or without the binders.  But who
>> knows,
>> maybe somebody out there wants such an artifact?
>>
>> I also have some spare boards and other parts for a VAX 4000 Model 500 if
>> anybody has an interest in such things.  They are smaller and lighter than
>> the doc set.
>>
>>
> May I ask what boards and spare parts in general you have?  I happen to
> have a nearly bare BA440 chassis that could use some VAX 4000 parts.  Or
> perhaps there is someone out there that would like to combine their parts,
> your parts and my chassis to make a while VAX 4000?
>
> I do not particularly need an(other) operating VAX and am willing to part
> with the chassis if someone can use it.  Unfortunately, it's pretty bare.
> I got it from a local guy when I bought a MicroVAX 3100.  He had sold a VAX
> 4000 Model 300 to someone and all they wanted were the boards.  So he
> stripped it as instructed and left the chassis. It needs a fan, P/S,
> console panel, front door(s), storage pods and various cables.  It's
> basically a box with a backplane.  It's available for pickup in the
> Cincinnati, Ohio area, or perhaps a meet can be arranged within a few hours
> drive.
>
> John H. Reinhardt
>

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue May  5 15:01:36 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 21:01:36 +0100
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <102101d0870e$32ea1d40$98be57c0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E18C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAKtEJ01oJz3jw98d4uEn7NJ340ptTEY2hLQYAQrYD5A3X7FRJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <102101d0870e$32ea1d40$98be57c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011001d0876e$4b086ca0$e11945e0$@ntlworld.com>

Really not sure, it isn't so much the driving (although going into central London is not appealing), but more that it would mean an entire day away from home (again!), and space is a problem for me too. Although I am always prepared to temporarily hold on to stuff until I can find it a new home. Still wouldn't mind a few of these items (like the ZX6000, and several other items too), but on this occasion I may have to pass. 

Dan, if it comes to the worst, would you be able to post some of the smaller stuff? I am thinking boards/disks from the VAXen, MMJ stuff if there is any (after Gregg Levine, because he asked first).

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave
> G4UGM
> Sent: 05 May 2015 09:34
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian
> > S. King
> > Sent: 05 May 2015 01:54
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: Re: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
> >
> > You just have to get it to St. Pancras and on the train - how hard can
> > it be?  :-)
> 
> Well actually for (Greater) Manchester where I and Bob live the appropriate
> station is Euston.
> 
> And having once lugged and small IBM Model -011 manual card punch home
> from the top of Totenham Court Road in a wheeled suitcase I won't be trying to
> get a VAX on the train.
> 
> If Bob fancies a trip I don't mind driving but my availability is limited, and my
> free space is approaching zero....
> 
> 
> >
> > On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Rich Alderson <
> > RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Ian S. King
> > > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 5:15 PM
> > >
> > > > On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <
> > > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I
> > > >> am not sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I
> > > >> hope it all gets
> > > a
> > > >> good home.
> > >
> > > > What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?
> > >
> > > As I recall, Rob lives near Manchester or other urban center in the North.
> > > Tube's not in it.
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School
> > <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> >
> > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
> >
> > University of Washington
> >
> > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."


From venture37 at gmail.com  Tue May  5 17:54:38 2015
From: venture37 at gmail.com (Sevan / Venture37)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 23:54:38 +0100
Subject: Fwd: [rescue] 2 x Sun Netra T1's for free, London, UK
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1505051806220.1967@yvzcvg.cbvagyrff.arg>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1505051806220.1967@yvzcvg.cbvagyrff.arg>
Message-ID: <CA+U3Mf6gMx5K5X9K5ovtnvaMJ6g4_2ekbf-j-br-HVaX3Vyqfw@mail.gmail.com>

While we're on the subject of London & giveaways
:)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jasper Wallace <jasper at pointless.net>
Date: 5 May 2015 at 18:10
Subject: [rescue] 2 x Sun Netra T1's for free, London, UK
To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>


Hi,

I'm hopeing to find a new home for 2 Sun Netra T1's, they are in London
Hackspace on Hackney road near cambridge heath station, specs:

1st:

Netra t1 (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz)
512 MB

2nd:

Netra T1 200 (UltraSPARC-IIe 500MHz)
1Gb ram

There are 4 x 17Gb drives and 2 x 36Gb drives with them, the 36Gb drives
might be dodgey, but they where happy when i dd'd /dev/zero over them...

Please contact me off list if you want to arrange pickup.

--
[http://pointless.net/]                                   [0x2ECA0975]
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue May  5 19:56:52 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 20:56:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
In-Reply-To: <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
 <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505052055020.5152@z87>

On Tue, 5 May 2015, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:

> I'll check and see what I have Steve, surprised you didn't directly email me 
> first.

Thanks, Curt!  I would have worked my way around to you soon enough if you 
hadn't spotted this :-)



-- 

From mattislind at gmail.com  Wed May  6 02:02:46 2015
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 09:02:46 +0200
Subject: HP2100 core memory boards.
Message-ID: <CABr82SJHKHdv7-5SMN78b--qs-4sK0Bg65XoCOw4hFoD10jZhw@mail.gmail.com>

In this (swedish) forum thread there is bidding going on for two core
memory boards for what I think is a HP2100A/S.

The current bid is 200 SEK. But it has to be fetched in Karlskoga.

http://elektronikforumet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77378

/Mattis

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Wed May  6 02:18:48 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 03:18:48 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkU=ja632sd2=KGMu_Zr9Htqrph7ZfrKQBkdwmPp6dpQtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>
 <CAA43vkU=ja632sd2=KGMu_Zr9Htqrph7ZfrKQBkdwmPp6dpQtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5549C058.4030100@yahoo.com>

On 5/5/2015 11:59 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Does it have the door on?
>
> I'll actually be in Cincy on 5/16 with my girlfriend to attend a wedding of
> one of her college friends ... maybe I could make something happen with
> your chassis and Richard's boards ... OTOH, I promised my girl I wouldn't
> take any more big stuff ... LOL ... I bet a 4000/300 could fit in the trunk
> of a DTS.
>
> Not promising anything but let me think about it :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>

Well, that's rotten timing.  I'm going to be out of town 5/14 - 5/19.

But no door.  It's a rather sad box now.  Here is a picture <https://flic.kr/p/kMkW82>

John H. Reinhardt



From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Wed May  6 02:18:48 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 03:18:48 -0400
Subject: VAX/VMS 5.1A documentation set to give away
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkU=ja632sd2=KGMu_Zr9Htqrph7ZfrKQBkdwmPp6dpQtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.PMDF.4.44L.1505041538290.1092-100000@admin.athabascau.ca>
 <5548D351.5010908@yahoo.com>
 <CAA43vkU=ja632sd2=KGMu_Zr9Htqrph7ZfrKQBkdwmPp6dpQtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5549C058.4030100@yahoo.com>

On 5/5/2015 11:59 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> Does it have the door on?
>
> I'll actually be in Cincy on 5/16 with my girlfriend to attend a wedding of
> one of her college friends ... maybe I could make something happen with
> your chassis and Richard's boards ... OTOH, I promised my girl I wouldn't
> take any more big stuff ... LOL ... I bet a 4000/300 could fit in the trunk
> of a DTS.
>
> Not promising anything but let me think about it :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>

Well, that's rotten timing.  I'm going to be out of town 5/14 - 5/19.

But no door.  It's a rather sad box now.  Here is a picture <https://flic.kr/p/kMkW82>

John H. Reinhardt



From fulivi at tiscali.it  Wed May  6 04:04:30 2015
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 11:04:30 +0200
Subject: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
Message-ID: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>

Hi,

is there someone who can send me the executable/floppy image of BASIC-80
for ISIS-II operating system, please? I've a few old BASIC programs that
I'd like to try on the MESS-based MDS-2 emulator.

Thanks a lot!
-- F.Ulivi

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed May  6 08:06:59 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 08:06:59 -0500
Subject: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>
References: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <000001d087fd$8a38ac70$9eaa0550$@classiccmp.org>

Ulivi wrote....
----
is there someone who can send me the executable/floppy image of BASIC-80 for ISIS-II operating system, please? I've a few old BASIC programs that I'd like to try on the MESS-based MDS-2 emulator.-------
I would be interested in the same!

J



From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed May  6 12:52:26 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 13:52:26 -0400
Subject: A DIY card reader, FYA
Message-ID: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>

This grew out of off-list correspondence about the
card punch I'd mentioned on here recently; I
thought it might amuse some folks or just possibly
even be interesting:

----- Original Message -----

> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Mike Stein
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I've got a crazy idea; are you handy
> mechanically and electronically?
>
>  I've got a couple of mag card readers; I think
> it would be a most awesome kludge to turn one
> into a punched card reader ;-)
>
>  On the other hand, one of my PPT readers also
> reads EPCs (Edge Punched cards)...
>
>  m

----------

> From: Kyle Owen
> To: Mike Stein
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Wright card punch
>
> Hey Mike,
>
> I'm certainly more handy when it comes to
> electronics than mechanics, though I've dabbled
> in a bit of everything it feels like.
>
> What kind of mag card readers do you have? And I
> assume PPT is punched paper tape? I guess I
> haven't seen too many EPCs in my time. What were
> they used for?
>
> Kyle

 -----------------

Hi Kyle,

I wasn't entirely serious about the mag card
readers, but it's not a totally ridiculous idea
either.

They're sort of like a linear floppy disk: Imagine
a credit card reader like the one at your local
ATM that sucks in the card and spits it out, but
the card is the size and shape of an 80 column
punched card but made from more or less the same
material as a floppy disk.

The tracks are straight and lengthwise instead of
concentric and they're read the same way as your
credit card, with a stepper mechanism to select a
specific track across the width (height?) of the
card either under computer control or manually
(note the < and > buttons on the front).

Remove the track-select stepper mechanism, add a
light source and an array of 12 photo sensors (or
a mechanical contact of some sort) and you've got
a one-at-a-time card reader; it's even already got
a couple of photo sensors ;-)

As usual with the old stuff (and most of the
'real' punched card readers) the feed rollers look
a little rough, although it looks like you could
probably make new ones out of wood or plastic and
just put a rubber band around them.

Pity I'm getting rid of the punch or I might
actually try it myself for a lark.

EPCs are really just punched cards of various
sizes but instead of using the whole area of the
card the data is punched along the bottom edge
just like paper tape; they're usually read by
normal PPT readers that have a special guide for
the card.

Pictures of the mag card reader here:

http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/dm561/library/?view=recent&page=1


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed May  6 13:51:02 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 14:51:02 -0400
Subject: A DIY card reader, FYA
Message-ID: <E2084B8327CD46C4B6B6497467118B22@310e2>

Added  pics of an EPC-capable PPT perf and reader; 
obviously you'd normally only use one or the 
other:

http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/dm561/library/?view=recent&page=1


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed May  6 14:24:57 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 21:24:57 +0200
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
In-Reply-To: <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
 <EA85818D-C299-4DD6-B75C-963F059337F2@platinum.net>
 <CAA43vkWvvxajGQFGXzPuENNaHs38um8tAGdv4utjzSRm0PkX5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <55441398.305@alum.mit.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEKEmsq99GYCv4Bj8JYGDYdQBjEg6CVwOHBxVoY1dBp2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5548548F.6020006@btinternet.com>
 <CAFrGgTSCCuMOA_MMFY7ag53xj-+jn6165btFf=tx+QKLz-yaVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55488F9A.6060109@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <554A6A89.9000904@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 05.05.15 um 11:38 schrieb Rod Smallwood:
> They would be unloaded off the plane by fork lift truck.
This happened to some friends while rescueing a CDC Cyber 2000:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stiefkind/3053686013/in/set-72157609830931613
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stiefkind/3054523954/in/album-72157609830931613/
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From b4 at gewt.net  Wed May  6 15:12:22 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 16:12:22 -0400
Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAB0-voEL=vZh+scvhjDtfHh9Xbm9QWOm9cLeYkdiSR8tDq26Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d08682$f090b430$d1b21c90$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAKtEJ01C5eBbk4Kr5STrgi2WhtOC91wORQsGZiv6SD7=ZDRqEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AFEAD2A-798A-4B02-9A98-6DE2431F55C1@gewt.net>

First glance I thought this was the rp07 thread

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2015, at 20:15, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote:
> 
> What, you can't wrestle it onto the tube?
> 
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DECtec [mailto:dectec-bounces at dectec.info] On Behalf Of Dan
>> Williams
>>> Sent: 04 May 2015 14:30
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; DEC discussion
>> list.
>>> Subject: [DECtec] Free stuff in London (Mostly DEC)
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Due to a change in circumstances, I need to downsize my collection.
>>> 
>>> Most of this stuff has been given to me free by other members of this
>> group. It
>>> is first come first served, but if you gave it to me and want it back,
>> obviously
>>> you have first shot.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It is located in Piccadilly in London, and for the bigger stuff will need
>> to be
>>> picked up before 11am any day inc. weekends. I also need to move it
>> within
>> 3
>>> weeks.
>>> I have a busted hip at the moment so I can't help lift anything and they
>> are
>>> located on the 2nd Floor.
>>> 
>>> Now thats dealt with here's what I have :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> aMicrovax 3400
>>> 2x Vax 4000-200 (One has a broken PSU)
>>> Hp zx6000 (No drives)
>>> SGI GDM17e11 CRT
>>> 2x DECserver 300
>>> 5x DECsystem 3100 (Think they are all dead, have never managed to get
>> them
>>> to go past diagnostics) 5x Gould os 3500 Oscilloscopes - All working but
>> not
>>> been calibrated for years.
>>> Sgi Indy
>>> Massive box of DEC Cables, mostly DSSI
>>> Intel MDS - Non working, powers up but nothing happens 2x Alphaserver
>> ES45
>> -
>>> These are HEAVY
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Let me know if you want it..
>> 
>> I have to say that I fancy the Zx6000 and a few other bits, but I am not
>> sure I fancy it enough to drive into central London. I hope it all gets a
>> good home.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Rob
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> 
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
> 
> University of Washington
> 
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
> -- 
> 
> DECtec mailing list
> http://dectec.info
> 
> To unsubscribe from this list see page at: http://dectec.info/mailman/listinfo/dectec_dectec.info

From menadeau at comcast.net  Wed May  6 15:15:57 2015
From: menadeau at comcast.net (menadeau at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:15:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Free books (for cost of shipping)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505041710070.76196@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <1261505579.4783358.1430943357093.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>

I'm weeding out my library and will send the following books to list members for the cost of shipping (Media Mail), or you can arrange pickup (I'm in southeast NH). All are in good to excellent condition. Not all are "vintage," but I thought I'd see if there was any interest here before I tossed them. First come, first serve. Contact me off-list: 

Communications Technology Guide for Business, Artech House, 1998 
Disconnected: Haves and Have Nots in the Information Age, 1996 
Mind at Light Speed: A New Kind of Intelligence, 2001 
Decline of the American Programmer, Ed Yourdon, 1992 
Future Codes: Essays in Advanced Computer Technology and the Law, 1997 
Computer Ethics: Cautionary Tales and Ethical Dilemmas in COmputing, MIT Press, 1994 
Artificial Reality, 1983 
The New High Tech Manager: Six Rules for Success in Changing Times, 1990s 
The Virtual Library: Visions & Realities, 1991 
NetResults: Integrating the Internet into Your Business, conference proceedings, 1997 
Netlaw: Your Rights in the Online World, 1995 
The Second Self: Computers and the Human Spirit, Turkle, 1984 
Virus Proof, 2000 
Software Conflict: Essays on the Art and Science of Software Engineering, 1990s 
Making Telecommuting Happen: A Guide for Telemanagers and Telecommuters, 1994 
Intranet as Groupware, 1996 
Successful Business Strategies Using Telecommunications Services, Artech House, 1997 
The Playful World: How Technology Is Transforming Our Imagination, 2000 
Machine Beauty: Elegance and the Heart of Technology, Gelernter (prepress review copy) 
Receptors, Restak, 1995 
The Particle Connection: The Most Exciting Scientific Chase Since DNA and the Double Helix, 1984 
Using Wordperfect, 1987 
Mastering Microsoft Frontpage, 1997 
Microsoft Office 2000: No Experience Required, 
The Windows 98 Registry Handbook: A Guide for Power Users 
Lotus 1-2-3 Release 2.2 Reference Manual 
Pagemaker 4.0: An Easy Desk Reference Mac Edition 
Mastering Windows 98 
Teach Yourself Wordperfect Office 2000 for Linux in 24 Hours 
Microsoft Office 97: The Complete Reference 
Windows 98: The COmplete Reference 
Superforce: The Search for a Grand Unified Theory of Nature, Huw Davies 
Smart Cards: A Guide to Building and Managing Smart Card Applications 
Selected Abstracts in Data Processing and Management Information Systems 
Smart Card Security and Applications, 1997 
Excel in Business: Number Crunching Power on the Apple Macintosh 
Using Supercalc 5, 1989 


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed May  6 17:53:28 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 17:53:28 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
Message-ID: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>


Rescued a keyboard from the dump earlier which is about the same style/size 
as an IBM model F, only a darker grey color (and not a buckling spring mech).

Layout-wise, there are no F-keys at all, but keys on the numeric keypad are 
labeled things such as 'pan', 'curs', 'local', 'dejag', 'vern', and then 
there are eight status LEDs above the keyboard area (on-line, local, 
interp, busy, pan, cursor, dejag, 2nd).

Does this critter sound familiar to anyone? I didn't see anything at the 
dump that it obviously belonged with, but I may return tomorrow and 
double-check, and knowing what I was looking for might be helpful. Of 
course it's possible that whatever it hooked up to is long-gone, or even 
had already been hauled off from the drop-off area for processing.

cheers

Jules

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May  6 18:45:39 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 16:45:39 -0700
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554AA7A3.8040104@bitsavers.org>

On 5/6/15 3:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
> Rescued a keyboard from the dump earlier which is about the same style/size as an IBM model F, only a darker grey color (and not a buckling spring mech).
>
> Layout-wise, there are no F-keys at all, but keys on the numeric keypad are labeled things such as 'pan', 'curs', 'local', 'dejag', 'vern', and then there are eight status LEDs above the keyboard area
> (on-line, local, interp, busy, pan, cursor, dejag, 2nd).
>
> Does this critter sound familiar to anyone? I didn't see anything at the dump that it obviously belonged with, but I may return tomorrow and double-check, and knowing what I was looking for might be
> helpful. Of course it's possible that whatever it hooked up to is long-gone, or even had already been hauled off from the drop-off area for processing.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>


I'm interested. It sounds like it may be for a Jupiter graphics terminal, which I have
but don't have the keyboard.


From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May  6 20:28:06 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 20:28:06 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554AA7A3.8040104@bitsavers.org>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com> <554AA7A3.8040104@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <554ABFA6.5070409@pico-systems.com>

On 05/06/2015 06:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 5/6/15 3:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>
>> Rescued a keyboard from the dump earlier which is about 
>> the same style/size as an IBM model F, only a darker grey 
>> color (and not a buckling spring mech).
>>
>> Layout-wise, there are no F-keys at all, but keys on the 
>> numeric keypad are labeled things such as 'pan', 'curs', 
>> 'local', 'dejag', 'vern', and then there are eight status 
>> LEDs above the keyboard area
>> (on-line, local, interp, busy, pan, cursor, dejag, 2nd).
>>
>> Does this critter sound familiar to anyone? I didn't see 
>> anything at the dump that it obviously belonged with, but 
>> I may return tomorrow and double-check, and knowing what 
>> I was looking for might be
>> helpful. Of course it's possible that whatever it hooked 
>> up to is long-gone, or even had already been hauled off 
>> from the drop-off area for processing.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Jules
>>
>>
>
>
> I'm interested. It sounds like it may be for a Jupiter 
> graphics terminal, which I have
> but don't have the keyboard.
>
>
I know a fair bit about the Jupiter 7.  This was a 2-piece 
system. The keyboard was quite a bit larger than typical 
keyboards, with TWO joysticks.  It had a row of lighted key 
switches above the keyboard.  Then, there was a main box, 
with power supply, 8 bit plate 1024 x 1024 graphics memory, 
color look-up table, and a 6502 CPU.  It also had a DMA 
interface that could download images at memory speed.  I 
built an adapter to download images from a u-VAX.
We had one at work, and I had one on my home UVAX-II.  I got 
a factory test mule from Jupiter when they closed down the 
graphics terminal business for something like $150.  The 
Jupiter 7 main box was the same width as the keyboard, about 
3" tall and about 24" deep.  You generally set the color 
monitor on top of the Jupiter. It has a rocker power switch 
and an RJ-45 jack on the front, and (I think) 5 BNCs for 
video and sync out on the back, plus some DB-25's.

If it is not a Jupiter unit, it might be from an AED 512 or 
similar graphics box.

Jon

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed May  6 21:36:10 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 21:36:10 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>

sounds like something from a hmi system of some sort

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 5:53 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Rescued a keyboard from the dump earlier which is about the same
> style/size as an IBM model F, only a darker grey color (and not a buckling
> spring mech).
>
> Layout-wise, there are no F-keys at all, but keys on the numeric keypad
> are labeled things such as 'pan', 'curs', 'local', 'dejag', 'vern', and
> then there are eight status LEDs above the keyboard area (on-line, local,
> interp, busy, pan, cursor, dejag, 2nd).
>
> Does this critter sound familiar to anyone? I didn't see anything at the
> dump that it obviously belonged with, but I may return tomorrow and
> double-check, and knowing what I was looking for might be helpful. Of
> course it's possible that whatever it hooked up to is long-gone, or even
> had already been hauled off from the drop-off area for processing.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>

From other at oryx.us  Wed May  6 23:38:00 2015
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 23:38:00 -0500
Subject: Sun dead battery / unresponsive openboot
In-Reply-To: <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>
References: <554651D8.4060901@gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkXbbgaKTJ-Bc4x=Xtt0ueuDzXiaUKYXF5Vbe6+QePgdVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5546A648.7030900@gmail.com> <3EC19695-013C-409E-A6B9-D70CF69FEA21@hack.net>
Message-ID: <554AEC28.5050302@oryx.us>

I haven't had a chance to catch up on email for a few days, so I am hoping this 
is old stuff and you have your box up and running.

I have two comments for you.

1. in addition to Ryan's break comment, you may also want to try a STOP-N , 
which should reset the OBP back to defaults.

2. Back in the early 2000's, I was at a small company, and one day my boss 
brought me a stack of Ultra-1's and Ultra-2, which we used small servers, 
serving up DNS, FTP, etc.

Several had dead OBP batteries, but I was still able to boot them, although I 
still received the error.   I was too lazy to do anything (physical) about that, 
but what I did, was to run a script, early in the boot process, to assign a mac 
address to the ethernet card, before any daemons came up, and those boxes served 
us well for many years.    The script was a really simple one liner of something 
like

ifconfig hme0 ethers 08:00:20:c0:ff:ee

or something similar.

Again, hope you have this all figured out and running.

Jerry


On 05/ 3/15 05:51 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
> Have you tried sending a break?
>
>> On May 3, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 05/03/2015 03:48 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>>> I have seen almost anything once on Sun machines :O Are you testing with
>>> all cables disconnected just power and serial terminal? I have seriously
>>> seen a bad network cable cause mysterious hangs on a SS10 once...
>>
>> Yeah, initially I just had serial and power hooked up, but because it seems to be defaulting to a network boot I did try connecting it up to my LAN too, but with no luck.
>>
>>> You've tried some of the other usual troubleshooting stuff like swapping
>>> out/around some of the memory, removing Sbus cards, etc?
>>
>> Not yet, but will do so.
>>
>> I did just attack the PROM module with a dremel and so am now running with good battery voltage via an external battery (but at this stage it still throws up an "The IDPROM contents are invalid" message, of course)
>>
>> I'm suddenly wondering if the serial port is fried. It's possible that I've only ever run this machine with keyboard/rodent/monitor attached, not via serial console, and a hardware fault on the rx side would explain the symptoms. I'll drag the necessary bits out of the basement and see if that changes anything (this room is rapidly filling up with vintage crap ;-)
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Jules
>>
>

From other at oryx.us  Wed May  6 23:43:48 2015
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 23:43:48 -0500
Subject: PS/2 connectors on Sun hardware WAS::::::::::::::Re: Sun SparcStation
 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
 <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>



On 05/ 3/15 09:36 PM, Mouse wrote:

> I'm fairly sure the SS4 doesn't use PS/2 connectors for anything.
> (Well, unless you have an unusual card in the machine.)  My SS4s are
> not very accessible at the moment, or I'd check, but I'm pretty sure
> none of the pre-SPARC64 machines used PS/2 connectors for anything.
>
> I would guess you are mistaking the miniDIN-8 connector, used for
> keyboard and mouse, for a PS/2 connector; the shell is the same size,
> but the pin layout is all different.
>


I would 2nd that comment concerning PS/2 connectors on Sun equipment.

For the most part, Sun went directly from the Sun 8 pin DIN connector to USB 1.1.

I have (personally) only seen a PS/2 connector on one piece of Sun equipment. 
And more specifically, it was the Sun AXi motherboard.  This motherboard shipped 
with both Sun and PS/2 connectors.   I still own a 300 MHz AXi system.  It was 
the first piece of Sparc gear I purchased for myself (at home) brand new.

If there are more Sun items out there that used a PS/2 connector, I would be 
interested to hear about it.

Jerry


From jon at jonworld.com  Thu May  7 01:22:25 2015
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 08:22:25 +0200
Subject: PS/2 connectors on Sun hardware WAS::::::::::::::Re: Sun
 SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
 <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+1YNDgmtwYBzybDEz0VNUMB_Rd2LTh=GdLT5QtMTvi1yA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:

> I would 2nd that comment concerning PS/2 connectors on Sun equipment.
>
> For the most part, Sun went directly from the Sun 8 pin DIN connector to
> USB 1.1.
>
> I have (personally) only seen a PS/2 connector on one piece of Sun
> equipment. And more specifically, it was the Sun AXi motherboard.  This
> motherboard shipped with both Sun and PS/2 connectors.   I still own a 300
> MHz AXi system.  It was the first piece of Sparc gear I purchased for
> myself (at home) brand new.
>
> If there are more Sun items out there that used a PS/2 connector, I would
> be interested to hear about it.


Other than OEM products, Sun AXi boards and their ilk there were no Sun
systems with PS/2 ports that I know of.

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu May  7 06:46:12 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 06:46:12 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>

On 05/06/2015 09:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> sounds like something from a hmi system of some sort

I'd wondered about some kind of early digital video editing suite; I did 
spot a couple of ancient TV cameras (at least I think that's what they 
were, but they were just the back ends and missing lenses etc.).  Weird how 
there's no branding on the keyboard though.

I did find a regular IBM Model F keyboard at the same time, so whatever its 
purpose, maybe this keyboard plugged into a custom card on an XT alongside 
the regular system keyboard.

cheers

Jules


From cae at ncia.net  Thu May  7 08:27:56 2015
From: cae at ncia.net (Willian)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 09:27:56 -0400
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.1.20150507092533.034b0d60@ncia.net>

Hi Jules,

               It sounds like an industrial 
Keyboard IBM made some Industrial PC that were Dark gray

Bill
At 07:46 a.m. 07/05/2015, you wrote:
>On 05/06/2015 09:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>>sounds like something from a hmi system of some sort
>
>I'd wondered about some kind of early digital 
>video editing suite; I did spot a couple of 
>ancient TV cameras (at least I think that's what 
>they were, but they were just the back ends and 
>missing lenses etc.).  Weird how there's no branding on the keyboard though.
>
>I did find a regular IBM Model F keyboard at the 
>same time, so whatever its purpose, maybe this 
>keyboard plugged into a custom card on an XT 
>alongside the regular system keyboard.
>
>cheers
>
>Jules
>
>
>
>-----
>Se certific? que el correo no contiene virus.
>Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es
>Versi?n: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 
>4311/9716 - Fecha de la versi?n: 05/07/2015


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu May  7 10:15:56 2015
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 11:15:56 -0400
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505052055020.5152@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
 <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505052055020.5152@z87>
Message-ID: <554B81AC.3020704@atarimuseum.com>

Hi Steve,

   Just checked all my Corvus binders this morning, no A2CPM diskettes, 
sorry :-(

Curt


Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On Tue, 5 May 2015, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
>
>> I'll check and see what I have Steve, surprised you didn't directly 
>> email me first.
>
> Thanks, Curt!  I would have worked my way around to you soon enough if 
> you hadn't spotted this :-)
>
>
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 11:00:45 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 11:00:45 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 06:46 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/06/2015 09:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>> sounds like something from a hmi system of some sort
>
> I'd wondered about some kind of early digital video 
> editing suite; I did spot a couple of ancient TV cameras 
> (at least I think that's what they were, but they were 
> just the back ends and missing lenses etc.).  Weird how 
> there's no branding on the keyboard though.
>
> I did find a regular IBM Model F keyboard at the same 
> time, so whatever its purpose, maybe this keyboard plugged 
> into a custom card on an XT alongside the regular system 
> keyboard.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>
Here's an AED 767 :
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/aed-graphics-workstation/

We had an AED 512, which I think looked quite similar.

I can't find any pics of a Jupiter 7 online.

I gave my Jupiter 7 away to "Richard" through this list in 
2012.  if he still has it, maybe he could take pictures so 
you could compare what you've got.  Or, post a picture, and 
I'll see if it looks like a Jupiter.

Jon

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu May  7 11:14:54 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 09:14:54 -0700
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJrBbhGxpoH6mr-nSFtLGKqj5=YXLaME8dYRymBV3LjPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
> I can't find any pics of a Jupiter 7 online.
>

http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Jupiter_7

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May  7 11:22:05 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 09:22:05 -0700
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554ABFA6.5070409@pico-systems.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com> <554AA7A3.8040104@bitsavers.org>
 <554ABFA6.5070409@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <554B912D.60202@bitsavers.org>

On 5/6/15 6:28 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> I know a fair bit about the Jupiter 7.
> If it is not a Jupiter unit, it might be from an AED 512 or similar graphics box.
>

I worked for AED from 84-86 so I know a lot about them. The keyboards would be brown and didn't have a 'dejag' key.

The AED 512 was a design bought from the guys who formed Jupiter Systems. AED went one way and did the 767 and the
Jupiter guys did the Jupiter 7. They are very similar internally. The 50 pin DMA interface is weird because it came
from AED's floppy disk product line to reuse all of their proprietary interface controller cards for all of the different
minicomputers it could interface with.



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May  7 11:40:53 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 17:40:53 +0100
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to recreate
the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid.  (Its accessible via
the bbs... bbs.cortex-media.info 4223)

I have 2.52 version of Dungeon, and a version of Star Trek.  Anyone got
anything else?

I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...

Thanks!

Mark

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu May  7 12:07:54 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 12:07:54 -0500
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>

John wrote...
----
Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to recreate the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid.  (Its accessible via the bbs... bbs.cortex-media.info 4223)
----
I wish. I had (on RX50) a VERY cool driving game. I would not have thought something like that could be done well for an ASCII terminal, but it was great. Unfortunately, it loaded off that floppy one time - and the floppy has errors there since and can't read it :( I believe it was called "DODGE.SAV".

---
I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...
---
This I may have, will check tonight.

J



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu May  7 12:14:21 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:14:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PS/2 connectors on Sun hardware WAS::::::::::::::Re: Sun
 SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
 <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <201505071714.NAA17438@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> If there are more Sun items out there that used a PS/2 connector, I
> would be
> interested to hear about it.

One of the javastations, I think?  That memory is fuzzy and my JS isn't
easily accessible at the moment, but I think that's what it has.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 12:16:33 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 12:16:33 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>

On 03/13/2015 01:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 
> drawings, which are
> the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and 
> uploaded yesterday
> to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050
>
> This was one of the things that I had been trying to 
> locate for a while now.
>
>
Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic 
significance, and the large number of machines produced, I'm 
kind of amazed at the incredibly small number of 360's that 
apparently exist.

Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8 
and put it in his garage, even a whole rack mount system 
with an RK02 (or 3), dectape and paper tape reader, and 
still get his car in the garage.  And, the system could be 
run off normal mains power.

You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty 
small), even a 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't 
run a 360 off normal residential power, either.  Many of the 
peripherals used 3-phase motors, and hacking the 
converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a 
task for any but the most experienced EE.

But, it sure is a shame that there appear to be a tiny 
number of machines in existence.  One list shows 15 or 16 
machines, excluding the model 20.  Probably there are a 
couple more hidden somewhere, like the B1900 that came to 
light so recently.

As fas as I can tell, NONE of these systems is complete 
enough to ever run, with the possible exception of the 
360/30 at the CHM, which does seem to have a complement of 
peripherals, and maybe control units, too.

Given the number of DEC 10's that are actually up and 
running, this seems a bit of a surprise.  there might be 
some emotional attachments that are behind this disparity.
Anybody have some comments?

Jon

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Thu May  7 12:33:27 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:33:27 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbNFamodpQt2khcgoVD-a200mLjV8h1or6J+1M-Ygusp0A@mail.gmail.com>

1. IBM would very often lease rather than sell, and take back machines when
customers upgraded; it was obviously in their interests to control or
eliminate where possible the market in used machines.

2. Gold. A lot of gold in old IBM kit. I knew a scrap dealer in Chelmsford
UK that did nothing but break old IBM mainframes (only ever big boring grey
boxes when I was there in mid to late 1990s though!)

Mike
On 7 May 2015 13:16, "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 03/13/2015 01:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which are
>> the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded
>> yesterday
>> to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050
>>
>> This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a while
>> now.
>>
>>
>>  Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic significance, and
> the large number of machines produced, I'm kind of amazed at the incredibly
> small number of 360's that apparently exist.
>
> Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8 and put it in
> his garage, even a whole rack mount system with an RK02 (or 3), dectape and
> paper tape reader, and still get his car in the garage.  And, the system
> could be run off normal mains power.
>
> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even
> a 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal
> residential power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase motors,
> and hacking the converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a
> task for any but the most experienced EE.
>
> But, it sure is a shame that there appear to be a tiny number of machines
> in existence.  One list shows 15 or 16 machines, excluding the model 20.
> Probably there are a couple more hidden somewhere, like the B1900 that came
> to light so recently.
>
> As fas as I can tell, NONE of these systems is complete enough to ever
> run, with the possible exception of the 360/30 at the CHM, which does seem
> to have a complement of peripherals, and maybe control units, too.
>
> Given the number of DEC 10's that are actually up and running, this seems
> a bit of a surprise.  there might be some emotional attachments that are
> behind this disparity.
> Anybody have some comments?
>
> Jon
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May  7 12:41:04 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:41:04 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <4D5860A7-5D3A-4A0A-B367-D38D1EC667D6@comcast.net>


> On May 7, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> ...
> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal residential power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase motors, and hacking the converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a task for any but the most experienced EE.

That isn?t really true; hasn?t been for a long time, and even less so in recent decades.  Home machinery operators have used ?phase converters? for ages to drive machinery like lathes that use three-phase motors.  A rotary converter is basically just a three-phase motor modified to run from one phase power across one of its windings ? it delivers the three phases at the three winding terminals.  And nowadays you can get a ?variable frequency motor drive? which is in effect a three-phase AC power generator, frequency of your choice within reason.  The smaller ones run off one-phase power.  Either option starts at just a few hundred dollars, and rotary converters can be built from an old three phase motor plus a capacitor or two for much less than that.

Rotary converters would easily feed any three phase powered computer with the exception of CDC mainframes.  A VFD would take care of those (since they want 400 Hz).  All that assumes you can get enough current at home, of course.  At least in the USA, enough current is often pretty easy, while more than one phase is not likely to be doable.

	paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 12:42:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 10:42:20 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <554BA3FC.7050005@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 10:16 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Given the number of DEC 10's that are actually up and running, this
> seems a bit of a surprise.  there might be some emotional attachments
> that are behind this disparity.
> Anybody have some comments?

Could this perhaps be due to S/360 systems being leased more often than 
purchased outright?  After all, the leasing system was one of the 
cornerstones of IBM's financial success.  Some hold the opinion that it 
was more important than any IBM technological innovation.

And, as far as I know, obsolete off-lease equipment was most often 
simply junked.

--Chuck



From scaron at umich.edu  Thu May  7 09:42:35 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 10:42:35 -0400
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.1.20150507092533.034b0d60@ncia.net>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com>
 <7.0.0.16.1.20150507092533.034b0d60@ncia.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWCBvBC4DOPHjZxLPpJ+33ENE-7C1P2fRP0fSe=b8Mh8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, process control was the first thing that had popped into my head as
well ... I've actually seen an original IBM Industrial ... those things are
beasts! What a chassis!

Best,

Sean


On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Willian <cae at ncia.net> wrote:

> Hi Jules,
>
>               It sounds like an industrial Keyboard IBM made some
> Industrial PC that were Dark gray
>
> Bill
>
> At 07:46 a.m. 07/05/2015, you wrote:
>
>> On 05/06/2015 09:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>>
>>> sounds like something from a hmi system of some sort
>>>
>>
>> I'd wondered about some kind of early digital video editing suite; I did
>> spot a couple of ancient TV cameras (at least I think that's what they
>> were, but they were just the back ends and missing lenses etc.).  Weird how
>> there's no branding on the keyboard though.
>>
>> I did find a regular IBM Model F keyboard at the same time, so whatever
>> its purpose, maybe this keyboard plugged into a custom card on an XT
>> alongside the regular system keyboard.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Jules
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Se certific? que el correo no contiene virus.
>> Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es
>> Versi?n: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9716 - Fecha de la
>> versi?n: 05/07/2015
>>
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May  7 13:02:09 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 11:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 7 May 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
> Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic significance, and the 
> large number of machines produced, I'm kind of amazed at the incredibly small 
> number of 360's that apparently exist.
> Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8

Sometimes by simply physically dragging it out of dumpster!
(And then not having a place for it at home, and leaving it out in the 
back yard to rot naturally)

Were 360s owned by the customer, or LEASED?
If leased, then they didn't go into "dumpsters" when "decommissioned".
Wow!  I'd like to see a dumpster that size.


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Thu May  7 13:03:12 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 14:03:12 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
Message-ID: <f6946.3dab6bae.427d02e0@aol.com>

Comments on where the 360s  went...
When I was in the used  computer business in the  early
80s when  gold and silver did the big  climb there arose a  large
group of people aside  from the usual scrappers, that were going
about the nation specifically targeting old  360s  and  earlier  for  scrap.
 
Even the scrappers that  did not  break the entire  computers down and 
process them would 
sell countess containers of  early computers to the Taiwanese  metal 
brokers that
would come over here  to purchase  material.  yes.....  shiploads of  
containers...
 
The  younger  people here and those that were not in the  biz  back  then  
do not realize  how many truck load after  truck load  were scrapped. 
Knowing  some of the scrappers was  a  good  deal for  me as a Computer  dealer 
though as a small   PDP-8 or  the likes did  not have enough tonnage to 
interest them and  sometimes  they would just let me have them  gratis.
 
Hate to say how may HP 2116, 2114, and 2115 hit  the process   especially 
in the  late 80s to early 90s where there was not  much  market   for them.
 
Even today,   you can go  down to one of the local Evil  Ironworks  and see 
 a wonderful old device on the scrap pile... there  are still things coming 
out of warehouses but....  in no ways like the  early 80s...
 
Ed Sharpe  Archivist  for SMECC  ( CEO of  Computer  Exchange Inc. <<long 
since retired>>
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/7/2015 10:33:33 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
tmfdmike at gmail.com writes:

1. IBM  would very often lease rather than sell, and take back machines  
when
customers upgraded; it was obviously in their interests to control  or
eliminate where possible the market in used machines.

2. Gold. A  lot of gold in old IBM kit. I knew a scrap dealer in Chelmsford
UK that did  nothing but break old IBM mainframes (only ever big boring grey
boxes when  I was there in mid to late 1990s though!)

Mike
On 7 May 2015 13:16,  "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 03/13/2015  01:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> CHM was able to obtain volumes  18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which are
>> the microcode charts and  ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded
>> yesterday
>> to  http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050
>>
>> This was one  of the things that I had been trying to locate for a while
>>  now.
>>
>>
>>  Just a curious thing I've  noticed.  Given the historic significance, 
and
> the large number  of machines produced, I'm kind of amazed at the 
incredibly
> small  number of 360's that apparently exist.
>
> Yes, I know, any  would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8 and put it in
> his garage,  even a whole rack mount system with an RK02 (or 3), dectape 
and
> paper  tape reader, and still get his car in the garage.  And, the  system
> could be run off normal mains power.
>
> You can't  do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even
> a  360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal
>  residential power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase  motors,
> and hacking the converter/inverter to run off single phase  would not be a
> task for any but the most experienced  EE.
>
> But, it sure is a shame that there appear to be a tiny  number of machines
> in existence.  One list shows 15 or 16  machines, excluding the model 20.
> Probably there are a couple more  hidden somewhere, like the B1900 that 
came
> to light so  recently.
>
> As fas as I can tell, NONE of these systems is  complete enough to ever
> run, with the possible exception of the 360/30  at the CHM, which does 
seem
> to have a complement of peripherals, and  maybe control units, too.
>
> Given the number of DEC 10's that  are actually up and running, this seems
> a bit of a surprise.   there might be some emotional attachments that are
> behind this  disparity.
> Anybody have some comments?
>
>  Jon
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu May  7 13:07:52 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:07:52 +0100
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
> Sent: 07 May 2015 18:17
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: 360/50 microcode listing
> 
> On 03/13/2015 01:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which
> > are the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded
> > yesterday to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050
> >
> > This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a
> > while now.
> >
> >
> Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic significance, and the large
> number of machines produced, I'm kind of amazed at the incredibly small
> number of 360's that apparently exist.
> 
> Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8 and put it in his
> garage, even a whole rack mount system with an RK02 (or 3), dectape and
> paper tape reader, and still get his car in the garage.  And, the system could
> be run off normal mains power.
> 
> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a
> 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal residential
> power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase motors, and hacking
> the converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a task for any but
> the most experienced EE.
> 
> But, it sure is a shame that there appear to be a tiny number of machines in
> existence.  One list shows 15 or 16 machines, excluding the model 20.
> Probably there are a couple more hidden somewhere, like the B1900 that
> came to light so recently.
> 
> As fas as I can tell, NONE of these systems is complete enough to ever run,
> with the possible exception of the
> 360/30 at the CHM, which does seem to have a complement of peripherals,
> and maybe control units, too.
> 
> Given the number of DEC 10's that are actually up and running, this seems a
> bit of a surprise.  there might be some emotional attachments that are
> behind this disparity.
> Anybody have some comments?

I think that you are not comparing like with like. How many KA10's are there left as that?s the DEC System/10 that?s comparable with the S/360. If you want to compare IBM Mainframes with DEC System/10 then you need to include S/360, S/370 and 43xx boxes. Now there may be few S/360's but there are 370's and I am sure there are many 43xx boxes.

However I think that the quantity of preserved mainframes is dire when compared with other items of "technology" history. There are hundreds of preserved static steam engines, steam locomotives, vintage ,  veteran and classic cars or automobiles (not that vintage and veteran have specific definitions in relation to cars/automobiles), radios and TVs etc. I am sure there are more concorde aeroplanes and possibly even space shuttles than there are S/360's...

Dave
G4UGM

> 
> Jon


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 13:41:32 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 14:41:32 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:40 PM, John Many Jars
<john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to recreate
> the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid....

Are you trying to recreate that experience and play games you did
play, or are you looking for games you can play now?

> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon

That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
versions.

> and a version of Star Trek.

Essential!

>  Anyone got anything else?

If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E (it needed
one extra system call to do with memory allocation) so we could play
Zork, Planetfall, etc., on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70.  If you wanted
that I could try to dig it up.  You just need a fistful of .Z3 files
to play, then.

I also used to have a number of RT-11 games when I was in front of a
PDP-11 every day.  I know I have them on an RL01 pack...

-ethan

From rob at bitscience.ca  Thu May  7 13:56:26 2015
From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 11:56:26 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>

Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?

I would find that to be a very interesting data point.

- Rob

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 14:15:06 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 12:15:06 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
Message-ID: <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 11:56 AM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>
> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.

I'd be interested also, in that a simple 360 CPU is essentially useless. 
  You need at least a minimum collection of working peripherals to be 
able to do anything at all.

--Chuck



From bear at typewritten.org  Thu May  7 13:23:22 2015
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 11:23:22 -0700
Subject: PS/2 connectors on Sun hardware WAS::::::::::::::Re: Sun
 SparcStation 4 - Need Help to Hook up cables, & Docs
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+1YNDgmtwYBzybDEz0VNUMB_Rd2LTh=GdLT5QtMTvi1yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b701d085d7$4312c1f0$c93845d0$@sc.rr.com>
 <201505040236.WAA12093@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <554AED84.4010801@oryx.us>
 <CAEOZr+1YNDgmtwYBzybDEz0VNUMB_Rd2LTh=GdLT5QtMTvi1yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BC0B7EB-CE32-4CD1-875F-ED31E04945F6@typewritten.org>


On May 6, 2015, at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:

> Other than OEM products, Sun AXi boards and their ilk there were no Sun
> systems with PS/2 ports that I know of.

Early generation JavaStations had PS/2 ports for keyboard and mouse. This just came up on, I think it was Nekochan. 

ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Thu May  7 14:34:22 2015
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 21:34:22 +0200
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
Message-ID: <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>

Henk Stegeman has done this: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html

On 07/05/15 20:56, Robert Ferguson wrote:
> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>
> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>
> - Rob
>
-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
Ph +41(0)79 926 1036                             http://www.ljw.me.uk


From ben at bensinclair.com  Thu May  7 14:40:56 2015
From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:40:56 +0000
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <0871EBF8-DB3E-4094-86E2-6806BC436F26@bensinclair.com>

I?m pretty sure I own the console nameplate from the unknown Dallas, Texas machine, but don?t know the status of the rest of it. I?m betting it?s all been scrapped, unfortunately.

--
Ben Sinclair
ben at bensinclair.com

> On May 7, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson <ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> Henk Stegeman has done this: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html
> 
> On 07/05/15 20:56, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>> 
>> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>> 
>> - Rob
>> 
> -- 
> Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
> Ph +41(0)79 926 1036                             http://www.ljw.me.uk
> 


From PLauridsen at wm.com  Thu May  7 14:49:12 2015
From: PLauridsen at wm.com (Lauridsen, Peder)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:49:12 +0000
Subject: old control data drives 
Message-ID: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>

I have three old control data 604 drives is there interest in them, I hate to just throw them away
Let me know

Peder Lauridsen

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Recycling is a good thing. Please recycle any printed emails. 

From rob at bitscience.ca  Thu May  7 14:53:51 2015
From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 12:53:51 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <FD5050DE-873F-4C1D-835D-F3899300963C@bitscience.ca>

Thanks, that's quite interesting.

Is there some consensus about how complete that list is? Does anyone have a feeling if it includes most of the systems in private hands, for example?

- Rob

> On May 7, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson <ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> Henk Stegeman has done this: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html
> 
>> On 07/05/15 20:56, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>> 
>> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>> 
>> - Rob
> -- 
> Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
> Ph +41(0)79 926 1036                             http://www.ljw.me.uk
> 

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 14:57:20 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 12:57:20 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <554BC3A0.8020408@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 12:34 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
> Henk Stegeman has done this: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html

So, from this list, only one working--and it's a 4331, not a S/360 box.

That doesn't surprise me at all.

--Chuck




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 15:14:55 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 16:14:55 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BC3A0.8020408@sydex.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BBE3E.2090207@ljw.me.uk> <554BC3A0.8020408@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=Ui9f0BgYGym3ru_2Wwenub7KR06QQt7FpHzcuUYnj3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 12:34 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
>>
>> Henk Stegeman has done this: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html
>
> So, from this list, only one working--and it's a 4331, not a S/360 box.
>
> That doesn't surprise me at all.

We had a 4331 at Software Results in the 1980s, sharing the room with
a couple of VAX-11/750s and some PDP-11s, all speaking HASP, 3780, and
some SNA (through COMBOARDs on the DEC side).  ISTR it wasn't too hard
of a machine to keep going, and not really more of a footprint than an
11/780.

-ethan

From tosteve at yahoo.com  Thu May  7 15:14:55 2015
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 20:14:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: FREE: Working Victor 9000 in Denver, CO
Message-ID: <880512230.2224287.1431029695092.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Don from Denver writes, contact him for more info:==================================================

Anyone know of a way for me to donate a working Victor 9000 before I take it to an electronics recycler?
Don,
huberdon at aol.com ??? 

==================================================


From g-wright at att.net  Thu May  7 15:19:42 2015
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 20:19:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
References: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
Message-ID: <1960186938.1134676.1431029982735.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

locations ????
 


   

  On Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:55 PM, "Lauridsen, Peder" <PLauridsen at wm.com> wrote:
   

 I have three old control data 604 drives is there interest in them, I hate to just throw them away
Let me know

Peder Lauridsen

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Recycling is a good thing. Please recycle any printed emails. 

   

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May  7 15:34:52 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:34:52 +0100
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 May 2015 at 18:07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I wish. I had (on RX50) a VERY cool driving game. I would not have thought
> something like that could be done well for an ASCII terminal, but it was
> great. Unfortunately, it loaded off that floppy one time - and the floppy
> has errors there since and can't read it :( I believe it was called
> "DODGE.SAV".
>

That sucks.  I used to have text mode space invaders for my PDP 11/23
(which was part of some sort of POS system and ran RT11).  It's always sad
when things can't be recovered.   I can't find basic stuff, like the stock
exchange game I played on the ASU PDP-11 back in the day.

>
> ---
> I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...
> ---
> This I may have, will check tonight.


That would be really cool.   That is the language I learned to program
in... well, really programmed in...



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 15:38:30 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 16:38:30 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:34 PM, John Many Jars
<john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> On 7 May 2015 at 18:07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I used to have text mode space invaders for my PDP 11/23
> (which was part of some sort of POS system and ran RT11).

This one?

http://pdp11.saracom.com/pdp11/games/spcinv.zip

(there could be others)

-ethan

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May  7 15:39:53 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:39:53 +0100
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFTBkrSUwF4QWRYfzCBBsVEiAvdhSWr3Eyi6T1-gJCegA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 May 2015 at 19:41, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:40 PM, John Many Jars
> <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> > Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to
> recreate
> > the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid....
>
> Are you trying to recreate that experience and play games you did
> play, or are you looking for games you can play now?
>

Kind of both.  What I'm looking to do is to have in my homebrew BBS (which
is a museum in itself) a RSTS "door" with the largest number of good old
DEC games I can find.

>
> > I have 2.52 version of Dungeon
>
> That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
> I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
> versions.
>

I used to have 1.2b.   This one at least has the end game.  I compiled it
in RT11 using the instructions here:

http://gunkies.org/wiki/Compiling_Dungeon_on_RT-11

I'd love even newer version...

>
> > and a version of Star Trek.
>
> Essential!
>
> >  Anyone got anything else?
>
> If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E (it needed
> one extra system call to do with memory allocation) so we could play
> Zork, Planetfall, etc., on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70.  If you wanted
> that I could try to dig it up.  You just need a fistful of .Z3 files
> to play, then.
>
> That would be OUTSTANDING, as I was going to do that via some Ruby code
that I found that doesn't quite work.  It would be even cooler to have it
on the PDP!



> I also used to have a number of RT-11 games when I was in front of a
> PDP-11 every day.  I know I have them on an RL01 pack...
>
>
I'd love to have those as well!  Thanks in advance for your help!


>
>

From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com  Thu May  7 15:45:36 2015
From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 16:45:36 -0400
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <1960186938.1134676.1431029982735.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
 <1960186938.1134676.1431029982735.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPi4v448=7w6jr6X1=biBaBdUgGwqg5=hzYy4O+bee3+tYCo-A@mail.gmail.com>

Like this?  1200 POUNDS?  Yikes!

http://www.vintchip.com/DOCUMENTS/CONTROLDATA600-1B.jpg

Todd Killingsworth

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net> wrote:

> locations ????
>
>
>
>
>
>   On Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:55 PM, "Lauridsen, Peder" <PLauridsen at wm.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>  I have three old control data 604 drives is there interest in them, I
> hate to just throw them away
> Let me know
>
> Peder Lauridsen
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Recycling is a good thing. Please recycle any printed emails.
>
>
>

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Thu May  7 16:21:24 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 14:21:24 -0700
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150507142124.40fd3951@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Thu, 7 May 2015 16:38:30 -0400
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:34 PM, John Many Jars
> <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> > On 7 May 2015 at 18:07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I used to have text mode space invaders for my PDP 11/23
> > (which was part of some sort of POS system and ran RT11).
> 
> This one?
> 
> http://pdp11.saracom.com/pdp11/games/spcinv.zip
> 
> (there could be others)

Appears to be a bad link :(

Lyle

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From isking at uw.edu  Thu May  7 16:29:26 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 14:29:26 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02Pz6MdYpaWPc8jEArmZpv=dgF+4ME6vkSJOsek-Hf+Ug@mail.gmail.com>

+1

I got a 360/20 "running" at LCM, but we didn't have the 2560 MFCM
reader/punch for which it was wired.  Unlike other 360s, the /20 didn't use
the channel architecture - all peripheral interfaces were built into the
2020 box.

And the machine won't even process instructions without peripherals being
sensed.  The printer and reader/punch are purely electromechanical, and all
electronics is in the interface, including such niceties as cover
interlocks and card-bin status.  Every macro-instruction cycle, the
microcode checks for those things and would stall if they were not in
order.

I always wanted to emulate the MFCM, but there were always other
projects... and even with the ALDs, it was a sizeable challenge.

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 05/07/2015 11:56 AM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>
>> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete
>> and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>>
>> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>>
>
> I'd be interested also, in that a simple 360 CPU is essentially useless.
> You need at least a minimum collection of working peripherals to be able to
> do anything at all.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu May  7 16:34:52 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 22:34:52 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 07 May 2015 14:21:24 -0700"
 <20150507142124.40fd3951@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01PLPJNEVJW60004E1@beyondthepale.ie>

Lyle Bickley wrote:
>
> On Thu, 7 May 2015 16:38:30 -0400
> Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:34 PM, John Many Jars
> > <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> > > On 7 May 2015 at 18:07, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > I used to have text mode space invaders for my PDP 11/23
> > > (which was part of some sort of POS system and ran RT11).
> > 
> > This one?
> > 
> > http://pdp11.saracom.com/pdp11/games/spcinv.zip
> > 
> > (there could be others)
>
>Appears to be a bad link :(
>
>Lyle
>

Try http://pdp11.saracom.com/games/spcinv.zip instead.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From dmabry at mich.com  Thu May  7 16:38:26 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 17:38:26 -0400
Subject: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <000001d087fd$8a38ac70$9eaa0550$@classiccmp.org>
References: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>
 <000001d087fd$8a38ac70$9eaa0550$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <554BDB52.9040403@mich.com>

Jay West wrote on 5/6/2015 9:06 AM:
> Ulivi wrote....
> ----
> is there someone who can send me the executable/floppy image of BASIC-80 for ISIS-II operating system, please? I've a few old BASIC programs that I'd like to try on the MESS-based MDS-2 emulator.-------
> I would be interested in the same!
>
> J
>

I just sent both of you the program file requested.  Basic-80 V1.1 for 
ISIS-II.


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 16:52:03 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 14:52:03 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <CAPi4v448=7w6jr6X1=biBaBdUgGwqg5=hzYy4O+bee3+tYCo-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
 <1960186938.1134676.1431029982735.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPi4v448=7w6jr6X1=biBaBdUgGwqg5=hzYy4O+bee3+tYCo-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554BDE83.50208@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 01:45 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote:
> Like this?  1200 POUNDS?  Yikes!
>
> http://www.vintchip.com/DOCUMENTS/CONTROLDATA600-1B.jpg
>

Really great (7 track) drives; substantially over-engineered as compared 
to, say, a 65x drive.  The 604 wasn't quite as fast as the look=alike 
607, but nothing to sneeze at.  If you've got  160A, 3000-series or 
6000-series machine (and associated controller), it'd be a really great 
drive to have.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 16:53:58 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 14:53:58 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ02Pz6MdYpaWPc8jEArmZpv=dgF+4ME6vkSJOsek-Hf+Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>
 <CAKtEJ02Pz6MdYpaWPc8jEArmZpv=dgF+4ME6vkSJOsek-Hf+Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554BDEF6.7010308@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 02:29 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> +1
>
> I got a 360/20 "running" at LCM, but we didn't have the 2560 MFCM
> reader/punch for which it was wired.  Unlike other 360s, the /20 didn't use
> the channel architecture - all peripheral interfaces were built into the
> 2020 box.

Ah, but what would a Model 20 be without Mother Fletcher's Card Mulcher? 
(cleaned up for "G" rating).

--Chuck



From evan at snarc.net  Thu May  7 17:50:39 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 18:50:39 -0400
Subject: PDP-8 ceremony video from VCF East last month
Message-ID: <554BEC3F.6040405@snarc.net>

Quick-and-dirty edit .... enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM38IVT8zHc

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May  7 17:51:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 15:51:05 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
References: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
Message-ID: <554BEC59.4040509@sydex.com>

On 05/07/2015 12:49 PM, Lauridsen, Peder wrote:
> I have three old control data 604 drives is there interest in them, I hate to just throw them away
> Let me know

If you are unsuccessful in placing them, and want to part the things 
out, please save me a head.  I'll gladly pay for it.

--Chuck



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 18:42:00 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:42:00 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <20150507142124.40fd3951@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150507142124.40fd3951@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnd-JXmdUKEHaiz7MMb9pFxBctik_ExQevANKb7oay0-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 2015 16:38:30 -0400
> Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://pdp11.saracom.com/pdp11/games/spcinv.zip
>>
>> (there could be others)
>
> Appears to be a bad link :(

Oh, no!  I didn't click through (I copied it from the main page), but
yes... it looks like the content is gone.  :-(

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 18:42:52 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:42:52 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <01PLPJNEVJW60004E1@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01d088e8$5c153bb0$143fb310$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEvVyqFC5p8QrBwncgwsViqhAr=Rev_kNJEU6=D-Z4rrj06gyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnRnvYE8=YvPajwaq=pRcp2tG2uu3mkwOcOAhcrPsRxCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150507142124.40fd3951@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <01PLPJNEVJW60004E1@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=yauqgpg7hc_4vN=1d41WtEA=MPS0P8=4wjNav-4c3TA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
> Lyle Bickley wrote:
>> Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > This one?
>>Appears to be a bad link :(
>
> Try http://pdp11.saracom.com/games/spcinv.zip instead.

Nice catch.

Thanks!

-ethan

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu May  7 19:20:47 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 19:20:47 -0500
Subject: HP 1331A X-Y display service
Message-ID: <554C015F.7040804@gmail.com>



Anyone happen to have a service manual for an HP 1331A X-Y display?

I've got a complete wreck of one here rescued from a scrap pile which is 
arcing somewhere between the tube and the shielding - I expect that nothing 
can be done for it, but if I can work out how to pull the tube (short of a 
complete disassembly, but HP of that era were usually smarter than that) 
then I can clean it up and better assess things.

cheers

Jules

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu May  7 19:21:36 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 18:21:36 -0600
Subject: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <554BDB52.9040403@mich.com>
References: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>
 <000001d087fd$8a38ac70$9eaa0550$@classiccmp.org>
 <554BDB52.9040403@mich.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTStpGzbeDeLXZgjzTwac9CHC07X8nK=H_di=CjZEnS=_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
> I just sent both of you the program file requested.  Basic-80 V1.1 for
> ISIS-II.

Do you happen to also have PL/M-80?

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu May  7 19:34:54 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 02:34:54 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-07 20:41, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:40 PM, John Many Jars
> <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
>> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon
>
> That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
> I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
> versions.

.dun
Welcome to Dungeon.                     This version created 16-Jan-03.
This is an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.
A rubber mat saying "Welcome to Dungeon!" lies by the door.
 >version
V3.2C
 >history
Revision history:

16-Jan-03       Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C).
20-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2B).
01-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2A).
01-Feb-94       Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A).
01-Jan-90       Portable version (V3.0A).
18-Oct-80       Revised DECUS version (V2.6A).
18-Jul-80       Transportable data base file (V2.5A).
28-Feb-80       Compressed text file (V2.4A).
15-Nov-79       Bug fixes (V2.3A).
18-Jan-79       Revised DECUS version (V2.2A).
10-Oct-78       Puzzle Room (V2.1A).
10-Sep-78       Endgame (V2.0A).
10-Aug-78       DECUS version (V1.1B).
14-Jun-78       Public version with parser (V1.1A).
04-Mar-78       Debugging version (V1.0A).
 >


But that "backport" was done by me, and requires an RSX system with 
split I/D-space to run...
I think in general V2.6 was the last version that was generally 
available for PDP-11s.

>> and a version of Star Trek.
>
> Essential!

However, there are many different versions of that game...

>>   Anyone got anything else?
>
> If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E (it needed
> one extra system call to do with memory allocation) so we could play
> Zork, Planetfall, etc., on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70.  If you wanted
> that I could try to dig it up.  You just need a fistful of .Z3 files
> to play, then.

I would guess that would be ZEMU? Do you have the RSTS/E fixes around. I 
have been hoping for ages that someone would just try and get it running 
under RSTS/E, since then I could incorporate those fixes into the 
distribution as well.

> I also used to have a number of RT-11 games when I was in front of a
> PDP-11 every day.  I know I have them on an RL01 pack...

There are a bunch from DECUS, I believe.
Afraid I can't help much, though. All stuff I got is for RSX.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Thu May  7 20:01:27 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:01:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
In-Reply-To: <554B81AC.3020704@atarimuseum.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
 <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505052055020.5152@z87>
 <554B81AC.3020704@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505072059530.5765@z87>

On Thu, 7 May 2015, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:

>  Just checked all my Corvus binders this morning, no A2CPM diskettes, sorry 
> :-(

Thanks for looking, Curt.  I'm starting to wonder if they ever really 
shipped these.  Absolutely everything else Corvus is out there - including 
the Constellation I CP/M support - so why would this one diskette be MIA?



-- 

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu May  7 20:36:02 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:36:02 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>

On 05/07/2015 11:00 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> I gave my Jupiter 7 away to "Richard" through this list in 2012.  if he
> still has it, maybe he could take pictures so you could compare what you've
> got.  Or, post a picture, and I'll see if it looks like a Jupiter.

Jon (& Al),

Quick photo of it here:

http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg

... definitely not as interesting as the Jupiter keyboard, whatever it is - 
but would love to know what 'dejag' and 'vern' mean, and what its possible 
purpose was. I popped the case open and the internals are unremarkable - 
just an 8048 and misc support TTL. Most recent IC dates were 38 of 1983.

I did swing back to the dump today and they'd cleared all the electronics 
out which were there yesterday - but I'm 99.9% sure that I didn't miss 
anything that it belonged with, so it was either already gone or had never 
been dropped off in the first place.

cheers

Jules


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 20:38:49 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:38:49 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 2015-05-07 20:41, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon
>>
>> That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
>> I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
>> versions.
>
> Revision history:
>
> 16-Jan-03       Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C).
> 20-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2B).
> 01-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2A).
> 01-Feb-94       Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A).
> 01-Jan-90       Portable version (V3.0A).
> 18-Oct-80       Revised DECUS version (V2.6A).
> 18-Jul-80       Transportable data base file (V2.5A).
> 28-Feb-80       Compressed text file (V2.4A).
> 15-Nov-79       Bug fixes (V2.3A).
> 18-Jan-79       Revised DECUS version (V2.2A).
> 10-Oct-78       Puzzle Room (V2.1A).
> 10-Sep-78       Endgame (V2.0A).
> 10-Aug-78       DECUS version (V1.1B).
> 14-Jun-78       Public version with parser (V1.1A).
> 04-Mar-78       Debugging version (V1.0A).
>>
>
> But that "backport" was done by me, and requires an RSX system with split
> I/D-space to run...

Nice version history there.

> I think in general V2.6 was the last version that was generally available
> for PDP-11s.

That seems about right (especially with the 10 year gap, past the
point of most daily PDP-11 use).

>> If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
>> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E
>
> I would guess that would be ZEMU?

I think it's actually a decompiled and commented Infocom Z-machine I
got from someone on this list.

I do have it, but on a copy of the daily-driver machine I was using in
2013 or so.  I have to go find it on an archive disk.

> Do you have the RSTS/E fixes around. I
> have been hoping for ages that someone would just try and get it running
> under RSTS/E, since then I could incorporate those fixes into the
> distribution as well.

If ZEMU compiles for RT-11 (not just RSX-11), then the fix, if it
needs one, for RSTS/E would be similar and minor (there's an extra
little twiddle you have to do when allocating memory under the RT-11
emulation environment that is not required on real RT-11).

> Afraid I can't help much, though. All stuff I got is for RSX.

In 1986-1987, I was doing a bunch of RT-11 development for a custom
product.  I was on the PDP-11 all day every day, and my gaming
alternatives were a C-64 (nice, but getting a bit old at that time)
and an Amiga with single floppy and 512MB of RAM (fixed up to 2MB and
20MB disk a year later), so I collected RT-11 games (and OS/8 games,
but that's for another thread).

I know I can find a couple things without firing up entire racks of gear...

-ethan

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 20:43:05 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:43:05 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJrBbhGxpoH6mr-nSFtLGKqj5=YXLaME8dYRymBV3LjPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <CAM2UOwJrBbhGxpoH6mr-nSFtLGKqj5=YXLaME8dYRymBV3LjPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C14A9.4000306@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 11:14 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> I can't find any pics of a Jupiter 7 online.
>>
> http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Jupiter_7
>
Yup, that's it!

Your Google-fu is better than mine.

Jon

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu May  7 20:47:13 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 03:47:13 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 03:38, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> On 2015-05-07 20:41, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon
>>>
>>> That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
>>> I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
>>> versions.
>>
>> Revision history:
>>
>> 16-Jan-03       Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C).
>> 20-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2B).
>> 01-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2A).
>> 01-Feb-94       Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A).
>> 01-Jan-90       Portable version (V3.0A).
>> 18-Oct-80       Revised DECUS version (V2.6A).
>> 18-Jul-80       Transportable data base file (V2.5A).
>> 28-Feb-80       Compressed text file (V2.4A).
>> 15-Nov-79       Bug fixes (V2.3A).
>> 18-Jan-79       Revised DECUS version (V2.2A).
>> 10-Oct-78       Puzzle Room (V2.1A).
>> 10-Sep-78       Endgame (V2.0A).
>> 10-Aug-78       DECUS version (V1.1B).
>> 14-Jun-78       Public version with parser (V1.1A).
>> 04-Mar-78       Debugging version (V1.0A).
>>>
>>
>> But that "backport" was done by me, and requires an RSX system with split
>> I/D-space to run...
>
> Nice version history there.

Yeah. All from within the game. Pretty nice. That command should be 
there in most versions of DUNGEON I know of.

>> I think in general V2.6 was the last version that was generally available
>> for PDP-11s.
>
> That seems about right (especially with the 10 year gap, past the
> point of most daily PDP-11 use).

Indeed.

>>> If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
>>> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E
>>
>> I would guess that would be ZEMU?
>
> I think it's actually a decompiled and commented Infocom Z-machine I
> got from someone on this list.

Cool. I know that Infocom did publish ZORK I for RT-11, but I haven't 
seen it myself.

> I do have it, but on a copy of the daily-driver machine I was using in
> 2013 or so.  I have to go find it on an archive disk.

Interesting. Might be fun to check out if I ever have time...

>> Do you have the RSTS/E fixes around. I
>> have been hoping for ages that someone would just try and get it running
>> under RSTS/E, since then I could incorporate those fixes into the
>> distribution as well.
>
> If ZEMU compiles for RT-11 (not just RSX-11), then the fix, if it
> needs one, for RSTS/E would be similar and minor (there's an extra
> little twiddle you have to do when allocating memory under the RT-11
> emulation environment that is not required on real RT-11).

ZEMU works just fine on both RSX and RT-11. I wrote the thing with 
portability in mind. All OS-dependent code is in just one file, and 
Megan Gentry did the RT-11 port.
An RSTS/E port should be pretty straight forward. You could possibly 
even use most of the RT-11 code straight up. The RSX code would probably 
be harder.

>> Afraid I can't help much, though. All stuff I got is for RSX.
>
> In 1986-1987, I was doing a bunch of RT-11 development for a custom
> product.  I was on the PDP-11 all day every day, and my gaming
> alternatives were a C-64 (nice, but getting a bit old at that time)
> and an Amiga with single floppy and 512MB of RAM (fixed up to 2MB and
> 20MB disk a year later), so I collected RT-11 games (and OS/8 games,
> but that's for another thread).

Well, I know that there are a bunch of games on DECUS distributions, so 
I would suggest checking those out.

Also, a bunch of DECUS programs were source in FORTRAN or BASIC, and 
should really compile just fine on any OS.

The most fun games for RSX, however, are multiplayer things, and those 
would be much harder to port... But if anyone is interested, they can 
certainly check under MIM::SYS$GAMES: on HECnet.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 20:48:33 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:48:33 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbNFamodpQt2khcgoVD-a200mLjV8h1or6J+1M-Ygusp0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <CAPhLQbNFamodpQt2khcgoVD-a200mLjV8h1or6J+1M-Ygusp0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C15F1.7000002@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 12:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> 1. IBM would very often lease rather than sell, and take back machines when
> customers upgraded; it was obviously in their interests to control or
> eliminate where possible the market in used machines.
In the early days, that was VERY true, very few machines 
were owned.  In fact, IBM didn't sell a SINGLE machine until 
they were forced to by the US government.  In later years, 
there were a lot of owned machines, many owned by the 
computer brokers, who made a BIG business out of 3rd party 
leasing in the 1970's.
> 2. Gold. A lot of gold in old IBM kit. I knew a scrap dealer in Chelmsford
> UK that did nothing but break old IBM mainframes (only ever big boring grey
> boxes when I was there in mid to late 1990s though!)
>
A lot less gold in the 360's than in earlier machines.  They 
started using selective plating much earlier than anybody 
else to cut the gold content.  But, there is truth in what 
you say.  But, SMS cards had WAY more gold than the SLT systems.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 20:53:45 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:53:45 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <4D5860A7-5D3A-4A0A-B367-D38D1EC667D6@comcast.net>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <4D5860A7-5D3A-4A0A-B367-D38D1EC667D6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <554C1729.1050906@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 12:41 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On May 7, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal residential power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase motors, and hacking the converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a task for any but the most experienced EE.
> That isn?t really true; hasn?t been for a long time, and even less so in recent decades.  Home machinery operators have used ?phase converters? for ages to drive machinery like lathes that use three-phase motors.  A rotary converter is basically just a three-phase motor modified to run from one phase power across one of its windings ? it delivers the three phases at the three winding terminals.  And nowadays you can get a ?variable frequency motor drive? which is in effect a three-phase AC power generator, frequency of your choice within reason.  The smaller ones run off one-phase power.  Either option starts at just a few hundred dollars, and rotary converters can be built from an old three phase motor plus a capacitor or two for much less than that.
>
>
Well, first, rotary converters draw a LOT of imaginary power 
(in other words, they have an awful power factor) and so the 
line current can become MUCH higher than you would expect.  
Also, the 360 series converter inverters were REALLY 
sensitive to line disturbances.  Yes, the MOTOR load in the 
peripherals could be run off a phase converter or a VFD.  
I'm not completely convinced the CPU and controllers, etc. 
would like phase converters.  And, running them off a VFD 
would likely be disastrous, as these put out 400 V square waves.

We tried to rig up a phase converter scheme to run the 
motor-generator set on a 370/145 in a guy's house, and it 
did NOT go well.  he only had a 60 A 240 V service, and the 
imaginary current was over 60 A!

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 20:57:14 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:57:14 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <554C17FA.5030105@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 01:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 2015, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic 
>> significance, and the large number of machines produced, 
>> I'm kind of amazed at the incredibly small number of 
>> 360's that apparently exist.
>> Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8
>
> Sometimes by simply physically dragging it out of dumpster!
> (And then not having a place for it at home, and leaving 
> it out in the back yard to rot naturally)
>
> Were 360s owned by the customer, or LEASED?
> If leased, then they didn't go into "dumpsters" when 
> "decommissioned".
> Wow!  I'd like to see a dumpster that size.
>
>
Lots of 360's were owned in the later days.  All the ones I 
knew of, with the possible exception of Washington 
Universities' first 360/50 were owned (and bought used).  
So, they went on lease, then somebody upgraded, and we 
bought them used.
There was a HUGE market in leased and off-lease 360 and 370 
machines in the 70's and 80's, some brokers got insanely 
rich on that trade. Some of those lost it all when the 
market collapsed.  The smart ones knew to not keep too many 
machines in inventory.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 21:05:16 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 21:05:16 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C19DC.9020809@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 01:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
>> Sent: 07 May 2015 18:17
>> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
>> Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: 360/50 microcode listing
>>
>> On 03/13/2015 01:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which
>>> are the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded
>>> yesterday to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050
>>>
>>> This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a
>>> while now.
>>>
>>>
>> Just a curious thing I've noticed.  Given the historic significance, and the large
>> number of machines produced, I'm kind of amazed at the incredibly small
>> number of 360's that apparently exist.
>>
>> Yes, I know, any would-be collector could drag home a PDP-8 and put it in his
>> garage, even a whole rack mount system with an RK02 (or 3), dectape and
>> paper tape reader, and still get his car in the garage.  And, the system could
>> be run off normal mains power.
>>
>> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a
>> 360/30 was a pretty big box.  And, you can't run a 360 off normal residential
>> power, either.  Many of the peripherals used 3-phase motors, and hacking
>> the converter/inverter to run off single phase would not be a task for any but
>> the most experienced EE.
>>
>> But, it sure is a shame that there appear to be a tiny number of machines in
>> existence.  One list shows 15 or 16 machines, excluding the model 20.
>> Probably there are a couple more hidden somewhere, like the B1900 that
>> came to light so recently.
>>
>> As fas as I can tell, NONE of these systems is complete enough to ever run,
>> with the possible exception of the
>> 360/30 at the CHM, which does seem to have a complement of peripherals,
>> and maybe control units, too.
>>
>> Given the number of DEC 10's that are actually up and running, this seems a
>> bit of a surprise.  there might be some emotional attachments that are
>> behind this disparity.
>> Anybody have some comments?
> I think that you are not comparing like with like. How many KA10's are there left as that?s the DEC System/10 that?s comparable with the S/360. If you want to compare IBM Mainframes with DEC System/10 then you need to include S/360, S/370 and 43xx boxes. Now there may be few S/360's but there are 370's and I am sure there are many 43xx boxes.
>
> However I think that the quantity of preserved mainframes is dire when compared with other items of "technology" history. There are hundreds of preserved static steam engines, steam locomotives, vintage ,  veteran and classic cars or automobiles (not that vintage and veteran have specific definitions in relation to cars/automobiles), radios and TVs etc. I am sure there are more concorde aeroplanes and possibly even space shuttles than there are S/360's...
>
>
Well, I'm pretty sure that the Concordes have been 100% 
preserved, other than the one that crashed.  True also for 
the shuttles.

But, no, there is a list of known/suspected/rumored 360's, 
and it lists 15 or 16 "real" 360 processors (I'm excluding 
the 360/20, of which they list 5 units.)

There are several KA10's RUNNING!  Compared to how many of 
those were built, there seem to be a LOT higher percentage 
of those still extant than of the 360's.  (Maybe a bunch are 
still to be revealed, I suppose.)  And, I'm pretty sure 
there are NO 360's running.  The LCM is trying to get a 
360/20 running.  Maybe they are going to start with a small 
project before attempting something harder.

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May  7 21:06:59 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 19:06:59 -0700
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C1A43.7090803@bitsavers.org>

On 5/7/15 6:36 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 11:00 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> I gave my Jupiter 7 away to "Richard" through this list in 2012.  if he
>> still has it, maybe he could take pictures so you could compare what you've
>> got.  Or, post a picture, and I'll see if it looks like a Jupiter.
>
> Jon (& Al),
>
> Quick photo of it here:
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>
> ... definitely not as interesting as the Jupiter keyboard, whatever it is - but would love to know what 'dejag' and 'vern' mean, and what its possible purpose was. I popped the case open and the
> internals are unremarkable - just an 8048 and misc support TTL. Most recent IC dates were 38 of 1983.
>

I was mistaken, it is an AED keyboard for the "Colorware" generation of AED 767

Dejag enables antialiasing of vectors. It's a kludge that steals portions of the 256 entry color lookup table
Vern is Vernier, simulation of the joystick with cursor keys, from memory.
It's a Keytronic serial kb.




From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 21:07:10 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 21:07:10 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
Message-ID: <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 01:56 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>
> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>
> - Rob
This is certainly not authoritative, but the best I've found 
so far :
http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 21:11:36 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 21:11:36 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554BB9BA.5070200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <554C1B58.7050307@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 02:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 11:56 AM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant 
>> relatively complete and/or actually working System/360 
>> machines? A registry, perhaps?
>>
>> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>
> I'd be interested also, in that a simple 360 CPU is 
> essentially useless.  You need at least a minimum 
> collection of working peripherals to be able to do 
> anything at all.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
Small 360's at least had integrated channels, but you still 
needed control units AS WELL as the peripherals.
It ends up being a fair number of boxes to just get even a 
360/30 to do any reasonable bit of work.  Some of the unit 
record control units could live in shared boxes.  But, a 
reasonable system would need a unit record controller, a 
tape controller and a disk controller, as well as the card 
machine, tape drives and disk drives.

The 360/65 had no integrated channels, IIRC, so you needed 
to have at least a couple channel boxes in addition to the 
CPU and control units.  Ended up being a forest of blue 
boxes.  And, the wiring under the floor was totally 
unbelievable!

Jon

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu May  7 21:35:58 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 19:35:58 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <554BDE83.50208@sydex.com>
References: <1B53A44735FBDA409FC8C2B2BCA217A22076FD41@ADCMBX001.wm.com>
 <1960186938.1134676.1431029982735.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPi4v448=7w6jr6X1=biBaBdUgGwqg5=hzYy4O+bee3+tYCo-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BDE83.50208@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <29477EEF-9FDF-4A71-889E-740D054699BF@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-07, at 2:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 01:45 PM, Todd Killingsworth wrote:
>> Like this?  1200 POUNDS?  Yikes!
>> 
>> http://www.vintchip.com/DOCUMENTS/CONTROLDATA600-1B.jpg
>> 
> 
> Really great (7 track) drives; substantially over-engineered as compared to, say, a 65x drive.  The 604 wasn't quite as fast as the look=alike 607, but nothing to sneeze at.  If you've got  160A, 3000-series or 6000-series machine (and associated controller), it'd be a really great drive to have.


Museum pic:

	http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/382511/tape-transport-control-data-3200-computer-system-tape-transport-model-604-circa-1962

I still think full-size vacuum-column drives are the coolest things, but I expect these ones are nowhere near me.
Breaking them into pieces would be heresy - I suspect they'll find a destination given the value of old-mainframe-anything these days.



From jws at jwsss.com  Thu May  7 22:20:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:20:10 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554C17FA.5030105@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>
 <554C17FA.5030105@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <554C2B6A.9030403@jwsss.com>



On 5/7/2015 6:57 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Lots of 360's were owned in the later days.  All the ones I knew of, 
> with the possible exception of Washington Universities' first 360/50
The UMR 360/50 was one of the first owned 360s.  They were given a 
360/40 because IBM could not deliver the 50 on schedule.  I don't know 
how that was handled.

The 50 at UMR was also odd because it was a 512K main memory machine, 
and 1mb of LCS, giving a non power of 2 memory size. Supposedly lead to 
some bug fixes.

Ran HASP and MVT 21, as well as CPS

thanks
JIm

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 22:22:10 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 22:22:10 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C2BE2.2080702@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 08:36 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
>
> Quick photo of it here:
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>
OK, definitely NOT a Jupiter or AED keyboard.  It DOES look 
vaguely familiar, but I can't place it.
Pan, cursor, dejag and zm-in, zm-out makes it pretty clear 
it is for some kind of graphics system.

Perhaps the only way to figure it out is to open the case 
and see if there are any labels inside.
Looks like maybe a stock Cherry keyboard.

Jon



From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  7 22:24:20 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 22:24:20 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554C1A43.7090803@bitsavers.org>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com> <554C1A43.7090803@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <554C2C64.4030204@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 09:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> I was mistaken, it is an AED keyboard for the "Colorware" 
> generation of AED 767
OK, you would know.  We had an AED 512, and I've seen one 
version of the AED-767.  This must have been a different 
version.

Jon


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May  7 22:44:52 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 22:44:52 -0500
Subject: PDP-8 ceremony video from VCF East last month
In-Reply-To: <554BEC3F.6040405@snarc.net>
References: <554BEC3F.6040405@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNKfrvGHo2bEYCrda5mzRNULMQr7qq+sk3OQu_w1u_V_g@mail.gmail.com>

Very Nice, another piece survives.  Great story and history.

Wish I could have been there.

Thanks, Paul

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:

> Quick-and-dirty edit .... enjoy!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM38IVT8zHc
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May  7 22:52:57 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 22:52:57 -0500
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNi+pL2ZEBHGU2u6uBSp+v6LGUuMzoN66hu4e23NYV7tg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a floppy here somewhere with Adventure and a load of other games i
played on a PDT11/150 I kept at my parents house.

Also an RK05 pack full of dames including  Lunar Lander and Star Treck
which both required a VT11.

I hope to go through them this year yet.

Paul

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-05-08 03:38, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-05-07 20:41, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's definitely missing some features (puzzles) from later versions.
>>>> I don't recall what does and doesn't backport from the VMS-era
>>>> versions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Revision history:
>>>
>>> 16-Jan-03       Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C).
>>> 20-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2B).
>>> 01-Oct-94       Bug fixes (V3.2A).
>>> 01-Feb-94       Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A).
>>> 01-Jan-90       Portable version (V3.0A).
>>> 18-Oct-80       Revised DECUS version (V2.6A).
>>> 18-Jul-80       Transportable data base file (V2.5A).
>>> 28-Feb-80       Compressed text file (V2.4A).
>>> 15-Nov-79       Bug fixes (V2.3A).
>>> 18-Jan-79       Revised DECUS version (V2.2A).
>>> 10-Oct-78       Puzzle Room (V2.1A).
>>> 10-Sep-78       Endgame (V2.0A).
>>> 10-Aug-78       DECUS version (V1.1B).
>>> 14-Jun-78       Public version with parser (V1.1A).
>>> 04-Mar-78       Debugging version (V1.0A).
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> But that "backport" was done by me, and requires an RSX system with split
>>> I/D-space to run...
>>>
>>
>> Nice version history there.
>>
>
> Yeah. All from within the game. Pretty nice. That command should be there
> in most versions of DUNGEON I know of.
>
>  I think in general V2.6 was the last version that was generally available
>>> for PDP-11s.
>>>
>>
>> That seems about right (especially with the 10 year gap, past the
>> point of most daily PDP-11 use).
>>
>
> Indeed.
>
>  If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
>>>> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would guess that would be ZEMU?
>>>
>>
>> I think it's actually a decompiled and commented Infocom Z-machine I
>> got from someone on this list.
>>
>
> Cool. I know that Infocom did publish ZORK I for RT-11, but I haven't seen
> it myself.
>
>  I do have it, but on a copy of the daily-driver machine I was using in
>> 2013 or so.  I have to go find it on an archive disk.
>>
>
> Interesting. Might be fun to check out if I ever have time...
>
>  Do you have the RSTS/E fixes around. I
>>> have been hoping for ages that someone would just try and get it running
>>> under RSTS/E, since then I could incorporate those fixes into the
>>> distribution as well.
>>>
>>
>> If ZEMU compiles for RT-11 (not just RSX-11), then the fix, if it
>> needs one, for RSTS/E would be similar and minor (there's an extra
>> little twiddle you have to do when allocating memory under the RT-11
>> emulation environment that is not required on real RT-11).
>>
>
> ZEMU works just fine on both RSX and RT-11. I wrote the thing with
> portability in mind. All OS-dependent code is in just one file, and Megan
> Gentry did the RT-11 port.
> An RSTS/E port should be pretty straight forward. You could possibly even
> use most of the RT-11 code straight up. The RSX code would probably be
> harder.
>
>  Afraid I can't help much, though. All stuff I got is for RSX.
>>>
>>
>> In 1986-1987, I was doing a bunch of RT-11 development for a custom
>> product.  I was on the PDP-11 all day every day, and my gaming
>> alternatives were a C-64 (nice, but getting a bit old at that time)
>> and an Amiga with single floppy and 512MB of RAM (fixed up to 2MB and
>> 20MB disk a year later), so I collected RT-11 games (and OS/8 games,
>> but that's for another thread).
>>
>
> Well, I know that there are a bunch of games on DECUS distributions, so I
> would suggest checking those out.
>
> Also, a bunch of DECUS programs were source in FORTRAN or BASIC, and
> should really compile just fine on any OS.
>
> The most fun games for RSX, however, are multiplayer things, and those
> would be much harder to port... But if anyone is interested, they can
> certainly check under MIM::SYS$GAMES: on HECnet.
>
>
>         Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu May  7 23:19:24 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 00:19:24 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>

There are more S/360s out there than the list suggests.

We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any sort of
registry. We are a secretive bunch.

At least one S/360 is in running order.

--
Will
On May 7, 2015 10:07 PM, "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 05/07/2015 01:56 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
>
>> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete
>> and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
>>
>> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
>>
>> - Rob
>>
> This is certainly not authoritative, but the best I've found so far :
> http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html
>
> Jon
>

From wilson at dbit.com  Thu May  7 23:45:59 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 00:45:59 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>

On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 03:47:13AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>Cool. I know that Infocom did publish ZORK I for RT-11, but I haven't seen it
>myself.

At one point they had RT-11 versions of most of their games.  I bought a
copy of Sorcerer from them (for $35) a trillion years ago, and disassembled
and commented it.  I later tried to use it to play Hitchhiker's Guide
(which was never released for RT-11) but I think it was a microscopically
different version of the Z-machine so there were problems.

John Wilson
D Bit

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  7 23:52:33 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 00:52:33 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
 <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:45 AM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 03:47:13AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>Cool. I know that Infocom did publish ZORK I for RT-11, but I haven't seen it
>>myself.
>
> At one point they had RT-11 versions of most of their games.  I bought a
> copy of Sorcerer from them (for $35) a trillion years ago, and disassembled
> and commented it.  I later tried to use it to play Hitchhiker's Guide
> (which was never released for RT-11) but I think it was a microscopically
> different version of the Z-machine so there were problems.

The Z-machine for RT-11 that Infocom released only handled v3 images.
HHGTTG definitely had a v5 version, but without looking, I can't
remember if the first version was v3 or v4.  The difference between v3
and v5 is not microscopic - it's on the order of 4X in terms of object
and string capacity.  ISTR in v4, they added some real-timey "status
line" stuff, for games like "Seastalker", and bumped up some of the
memory addressing limits.

You can run a v3 game comfortably in 48K bytes, painfully in 32K
bytes, even on an 8-bit host.  You essentially can't run v5 game on
32K because the "impure store" and the interpreter won't fit (or it
_might_ fit but with not enough free pages for the parser to remain
resident).  Some of the later games essentially required 64K or even
128K of mem.  Once machines jumped to 256K or more, the paging system
fell away and the interpreters just sucked the entire game file into
RAM and moved pointers around.

As for the PDP-11, one _could_ write a split-I&D interpreter for
larger games (to have ~64K of game/string space) but you'd have to
really want to play a later game on that platform to make the effort
pay off.  There are over a dozen v3 games you _can_ play with 64K of
total space that play just fine.

-ethan

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri May  8 01:07:35 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 08:07:35 +0200
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 08:36:02PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote:
> Jon (& Al),
> 
> Quick photo of it here:
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
> 

Ah, this picture would have ended the speculation days ago. It's 
a keytronic keyboard compatible with VT100. I have one and will 
pull it out to see if it has the same labels or if your keyboard 
was intended for a special application.

/P

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri May  8 01:21:25 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 02:21:25 -0400
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com> <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk4F-sM7=sdh+Vmx3UdeXWpDX8Jcy-72Ej3divfANHteQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 2:07 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 08:36:02PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> Quick photo of it here:
>>
>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>
> Ah, this picture would have ended the speculation days ago. It's
> a keytronic keyboard compatible with VT100. I have one and will
> pull it out to see if it has the same labels or if your keyboard
> was intended for a special application.

That certainly does look like a VT100 keyboard, but with
application-specific labels instead of the VT100 generic makers L1,
L2, L3 and L4.

I don't think I could quite tell from the photo - does that keyboard
have a 1/4" multi-level jack like a "real" VT100 keyboard, or does it
have some sort of DIN connector?  If it's a 1/4 jack, it will probably
be easy to tell if it's exactly wired like a VT100 keyboard, or
perhaps for some compatible terminal (like a CItoh which is physically
similar, but not interchangeable).

-ethan

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri May  8 02:00:11 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 01:00:11 -0600
Subject: Need Corvus 'A2CPM.1' diskette
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505072059530.5765@z87>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505050759130.5152@z87>
 <55490E2E.5030001@atarimuseum.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505052055020.5152@z87>
 <554B81AC.3020704@atarimuseum.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505072059530.5765@z87>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTWq_JyHnTH=6Kkr7Tz36hGLwRJ-wmofhDw6q0mf7XxPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Absolutely everything else Corvus is out there - including
> the Constellation I CP/M support - so why would this one diskette be MIA?

I certainly used CP/M on the Apple II with the Corvus, including their
first-generation products that used the 8-inch IMI 7710 drives in the
translucent housing with exposed wire-wrap backplane, as seen in this
1979 ad:

    http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/610

Formatting the drive required adding a jumper to the backplane.

Unfortunately I don't still have any of my disks from back then.

From evan at snarc.net  Fri May  8 01:40:21 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 02:40:21 -0400
Subject: PDP-8 ceremony video from VCF East last month
In-Reply-To: <554BEC3F.6040405@snarc.net>
References: <554BEC3F.6040405@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <554C5A55.7030605@snarc.net>


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM38IVT8zHc

We had to delete and re-upload it due to a technical issue. Here's the 
new link:

http://youtu.be/sidooQfvH4I


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri May  8 02:03:18 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 01:03:18 -0600
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554C2B6A.9030403@jwsss.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>
 <554C17FA.5030105@pico-systems.com> <554C2B6A.9030403@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRbmNYiahyq6Lv8q8-uMRf++PuWk8CQ-LwQCfm+v=8Ptw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:20 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> The 50 at UMR was also odd because it was a 512K main memory machine, and
> 1mb of LCS, giving a non power of 2 memory size. Supposedly lead to some bug
> fixes.

I don't doubt that, but AFAIK almost all machines with LCS had a
non-power-of-two total memory size.

From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Fri May  8 02:32:42 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 03:32:42 -0400
Subject: A DIY card reader, FYA
In-Reply-To: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>
References: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb1x2HDCkaUVNrnAUpUjwAJ6uN9W6gbJ50WXj1pfUyEZjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 May 2015 at 13:52, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
<Mag card reader talk here trimmed for brevity.>
That mag card reader sounds like you could (possibly?) use it to read
Selectric mag cards. Wasn't someone on here (or maybe it was the
Greenkeys list?) asking about reading Selectric mag cards.


Cheers,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 04:43:43 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 11:43:43 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se> <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 06:52, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:45 AM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 03:47:13AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> Cool. I know that Infocom did publish ZORK I for RT-11, but I haven't seen it
>>> myself.
>>
>> At one point they had RT-11 versions of most of their games.  I bought a
>> copy of Sorcerer from them (for $35) a trillion years ago, and disassembled
>> and commented it.  I later tried to use it to play Hitchhiker's Guide
>> (which was never released for RT-11) but I think it was a microscopically
>> different version of the Z-machine so there were problems.
>
> The Z-machine for RT-11 that Infocom released only handled v3 images.

I only knew of the V1 version, for the original Zork I. I never knew 
that Infocom released anything past Zork I for RT-11.

> HHGTTG definitely had a v5 version, but without looking, I can't
> remember if the first version was v3 or v4.  The difference between v3
> and v5 is not microscopic - it's on the order of 4X in terms of object
> and string capacity.  ISTR in v4, they added some real-timey "status
> line" stuff, for games like "Seastalker", and bumped up some of the
> memory addressing limits.

Yes, V5 is substantially different from V3. You cannot hack up a V3 
Z-machine to handle V5 games. You need to change a bunch of stuff. Not 
only is the game format different. Some opcodes also changed.

Seastalker is actually a V3 game, but it requires some functions that no 
other V3 game have.

> You can run a v3 game comfortably in 48K bytes, painfully in 32K
> bytes, even on an 8-bit host.  You essentially can't run v5 game on
> 32K because the "impure store" and the interpreter won't fit (or it
> _might_ fit but with not enough free pages for the parser to remain
> resident).  Some of the later games essentially required 64K or even
> 128K of mem.  Once machines jumped to 256K or more, the paging system
> fell away and the interpreters just sucked the entire game file into
> RAM and moved pointers around.

Depending on version, even 256K is not enough to such it all into 
memory. But Infocom themselves only got to V6, which I think might fit 
in 256K...

> As for the PDP-11, one _could_ write a split-I&D interpreter for
> larger games (to have ~64K of game/string space) but you'd have to
> really want to play a later game on that platform to make the effort
> pay off.  There are over a dozen v3 games you _can_ play with 64K of
> total space that play just fine.

Um? Where have you been? ZEMU have been around for about 15 years now. 
It runs all V1 to V8 games, and runs under both RT-11 and RSX. I seem to 
remember that I've even run most of them without using split I/D space, 
but normally I do built it for split I/D space under RSX, as well as 
some other memory tricks to speed things up, but any Infocom game fits 
fine with just a straight 64K memory space, and most fits fine with much 
less.

(ZEMU do have issues with Zork Zero, but that isn't a memory problem, 
but issues with graphics and the fact that the code behaves differently 
depending on which platform it things it runs on, and appears to have 
various bugs and issues in general, sadly enough.)

On MIM:: (once more)
.zem/li/sy
-- System games --
Game      Release Serial Inform Z-Machine
ADVENT    5       961209 6.05   5
AMFV      77      850814        4
BALLERINA 1       991128 6.21   8
BALLYHOO  97      851218        3
BEYONDZOR 57      871221        5
BOMBER    3       971123 6.13   5
BORDERZON 9       871008        5
BUREAUCRA 116     870602        4
CUTTHROAT 23      840809        3
DEADLINE  27      831005        3
DOGSLIFE  1       981015 6.15   5
DREAMHOLD 5       041231 6.21   8
ENCHANTER 29      860820        3
HEROINE   3       001211 6.21   8
HITCHHIKE 31      871119        5
HOLLYWOOD 37      861215        3
INFIDEL   22      830916        3
KITTEN    6       031116 6.21   5
LEATHER   59      860730        3
LURKING   203     870506        3
MOONMIST  9       861022        3
NEVER     10      000928 6.21   5
NORDANDBE 19      870722        4
PLANETFAL 37      851003        3
PLUNDERER 26      870730        3
SAMEGAME  1       980731 6.15   5
SEASTALKE 16      850603        3
SHERLOCK  21      871214        5
SORCERER  15      851108        3
SPACEZ    1       980710 6.15   5
SPELLBREA 87      860904        3
STARCROSS 17      821021        3
STATIONFA 107     870430        3
SUSPECT   14      841005        3
SUSPENDED 8       840521        3
TRINITY   12      860926        4
TROLL     3       980518 6.15   5
VIOLET    1       080929 6.31   8
WISHBRING 69      850920        3
WITNESS   22      840924        3
ZDUNGEON  13      040826 6.14   5
ZOKOBAN   1       990810 6.21   5
ZORK0     393     890714        6
ZORK1     88      840726        3
ZORK2     48      840904        3
ZORK3     17      840727        3
ZTUU      16      970828 6.13   5
905       1       000210 6.21   5
ZTREK     1       000229 6.21   5
.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From dmabry at mich.com  Fri May  8 06:06:24 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 07:06:24 -0400
Subject: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTStpGzbeDeLXZgjzTwac9CHC07X8nK=H_di=CjZEnS=_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5549D91E.8040601@tiscali.it>
 <000001d087fd$8a38ac70$9eaa0550$@classiccmp.org> <554BDB52.9040403@mich.com>
 <CAFrGgTStpGzbeDeLXZgjzTwac9CHC07X8nK=H_di=CjZEnS=_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C98B0.1040508@mich.com>

Eric Smith wrote on 5/7/2015 8:21 PM:
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
>> I just sent both of you the program file requested.  Basic-80 V1.1 for
>> ISIS-II.
> Do you happen to also have PL/M-80?
>
>
Check your inbox.  :)


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  8 06:30:08 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  8 May 2015 07:30:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
Message-ID: <20150508113008.77CC218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > Well, first, rotary converters draw a LOT of imaginary power (in other
    > words, they have an awful power factor) and so the line current can
    > become MUCH higher than you would expect.
    > ...
    > We tried to rig up a phase converter scheme to run the motor-generator
    > set on a 370/145 in a guy's house, and it did NOT go well. he only had
    > a 60 A 240 V service, and the imaginary current was over 60 A!

Had to Google 'imaginary power'... Not a lot of experience with high-power AC
stuff! :-) ('Imaginary power' is probably not the best term to use, because
there are actual currents involved; I like the 'reactive power' name better.)

The article I read said that in reactive load which is high in inductance
(which is, I assume, the source of the high reactive load in rotary
convertors - or am I confused - a common happening, I concede :-), judicious
application of capacitance can reduce the reactive load. Why isn't this used
with rotary convertors to reduce their reactive load?

Any idea what the active and reactive powers/currents were in that attempted
installation?

	Noel

From dmabry at mich.com  Fri May  8 06:47:01 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 07:47:01 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <554C98B0.1040508@mich.com>
References: <554C98B0.1040508@mich.com>
Message-ID: <554CA235.3040107@mich.com>




-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Re: Looking for BASIC-80 for Intellec MDS-2
Date: 	Fri, 08 May 2015 07:06:24 -0400
From: 	Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com>
To: 	General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>



Eric Smith wrote on 5/7/2015 8:21 PM:
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
>> I just sent both of you the program file requested.  Basic-80 V1.1 for
>> ISIS-II.
> Do you happen to also have PL/M-80?
>
>
Check your inbox.  :)

Well, it bounced.  Email me an email that can accept attachments and 
I'll send it to you.




From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri May  8 07:20:06 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 07:20:06 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com> <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <554CA9F6.6060906@gmail.com>

On 05/08/2015 01:07 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 08:36:02PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> Jon (& Al),
>>
>> Quick photo of it here:
>>
>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>>
>
> Ah, this picture would have ended the speculation days ago.

Ok, I'll let you have that, I suppose it was ~27 hours :-)

> It's
> a keytronic keyboard compatible with VT100. I have one and will
> pull it out to see if it has the same labels or if your keyboard
> was intended for a special application.

Yes, please check. This one has a circular DIN connector, 5 pins, 180 
degrees, but I don't recall if that's what the vt100 has or not.

Shame that whatever it belonged with wasn't there - if it was just a 
terminal then I expect it got tossed into their CRT pile, and that fills up 
and gets emptied far more frequently than the other bins.

cheers

Jules


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 07:22:14 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:22:14 +0200
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554CA9F6.6060906@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com> <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>
 <554CA9F6.6060906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CAA76.60401@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 14:20, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/08/2015 01:07 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>> On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 08:36:02PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>> Jon (& Al),
>>>
>>> Quick photo of it here:
>>>
>>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>>>
>>
>> Ah, this picture would have ended the speculation days ago.
>
> Ok, I'll let you have that, I suppose it was ~27 hours :-)
>
>> It's
>> a keytronic keyboard compatible with VT100. I have one and will
>> pull it out to see if it has the same labels or if your keyboard
>> was intended for a special application.
>
> Yes, please check. This one has a circular DIN connector, 5 pins, 180
> degrees, but I don't recall if that's what the vt100 has or not.

The real VT100 keyboard have a phone jack. Looks the same as what a 
stereo headset would use. 6.35mm TRS if you want to be a bit more technical.

	Johnny


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri May  8 07:39:03 2015
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 14:39:03 +0200
Subject: MIL Code conversion  help
Message-ID: <006301d0898b$f85369e0$e8fa3da0$@xs4all.nl>

 

I got some JM38510/052528CB ic's and want like to know what type it is.

Tried the usual places but can't find the number, someone who can help?

 

-Rik

 


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri May  8 08:36:58 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 14:36:58 +0100
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
 <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I sure would appreciate anything you guys have got.  I think we
should probably get it all together and put it some place for safe keeping
... and I'd love to play with it and put it on the BBS!

I'd also love to try to help.  Not that I know anything about things like,
er, FORTRAN any more.  I have problems accessing memories from when I was
13 -- 33 years later.

I should do something mad and say -- "I'm going to write a TCP stack for
RSTS/E..."  but I have no idea how to do such a thing.  I should say it
though.  It's more likely than my other dreams, of becoming an astronomer,
or a rock star or novelist.
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 08:40:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 15:40:49 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se> <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 15:36, John Many Jars wrote:
> Well, I sure would appreciate anything you guys have got.  I think we
> should probably get it all together and put it some place for safe keeping
> ... and I'd love to play with it and put it on the BBS!
>
> I'd also love to try to help.  Not that I know anything about things like,
> er, FORTRAN any more.  I have problems accessing memories from when I was
> 13 -- 33 years later.
>
> I should do something mad and say -- "I'm going to write a TCP stack for
> RSTS/E..."  but I have no idea how to do such a thing.  I should say it
> though.  It's more likely than my other dreams, of becoming an astronomer,
> or a rock star or novelist.

How about start by grabbing ZEMU, and make it run properly on RSTS/E then?

Once you have that done, we could get back to the TCP/IP thing... ;-)

	Johnny


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri May  8 08:54:47 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 09:54:47 -0400
Subject: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 / RSTS-E games)
Message-ID: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> The Z-machine for RT-11 that Infocom released only handled v3 images.
>
> I only knew of the V1 version, for the original Zork I. I never knew that
> Infocom released anything past Zork I for RT-11.

I can't seem to find the definitive catalog, but I know there were
folio packaging of several of the titles available for sale.  I saw
Starcross hanging on the wall at the Digital Store in Columbus, OH
(back when there _was_ a brick-and-mortar store), and I am reasonable
certain there were others, definitely more than just the V1 Zork.

>> You can run a v3 game comfortably in 48K bytes...
>> As for the PDP-11, one _could_ write a split-I&D interpreter for
>> larger games...
>
> Um? Where have you been? ZEMU have been around for about 15 years now. It
> runs all V1 to V8 games, and runs under both RT-11 and RSX.

I think I forgot ZEMU has support past V5.  My apologies.

> On MIM:: (once more)
> .zem/li/sy
> -- System games --
> Game      Release Serial Inform Z-Machine
> ADVENT    5       961209 6.05   5
> ZDUNGEON  13      040826 6.14   5

:-)

> ZTREK     1       000229 6.21   5

Ooh... that's right... there's an implentation of Star Trek on the
Z-machine.  I'll have to go grab that to see which version it's based
on.  Personally, I'm used to the one that was in Dave Ahl's "101
Computer Games", the one that has the short range scan that represents
each item with up to three chars and empty locations with all spaces
(as opposed to a simple grid with 1 char per filled spot and, ISTR, a
'.' for empty locations).

When I get the opportunity (later this weekend I think) I will check
my backups for the RSTS/E mod I was mentioning.  If the RT-11 ZEMU
doesn't compile on RSTS/E as is, it should be a 1-line mod.

-ethan

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  8 10:05:17 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:05:17 +0200
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEvUc9=SE8Xx35zpThG-YJ6cCvT5s_tRf6NHFrWMgy-sw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 May 2015 at 19:16, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a
> 360/30 was a pretty big box.


Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in NZ
when he was a student? It was a truly epic undertaking.

It's here, among other places:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2245918

He is now implementing one on an FPGA -- with blinkenlights output on
the VGA port. I think one small part of the reasoning is that it's a
lot lighter to lift...


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri May  8 10:16:56 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:16:56 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CE91EF91-23CE-455E-AEC8-E4F1DFCEFC04@comcast.net>


> On May 7, 2015, at 8:34 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> 
> On 2015-05-07 20:41, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> If you are looking for games you _can_ play, a couple of years ago at
>> VCFe, I hacked one of the RT-11 Z-Machines to run on RSTS/E (it needed
>> one extra system call to do with memory allocation) so we could play
>> Zork, Planetfall, etc., on Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70.  If you wanted
>> that I could try to dig it up.  You just need a fistful of .Z3 files
>> to play, then.
> 
> I would guess that would be ZEMU? Do you have the RSTS/E fixes around. I have been hoping for ages that someone would just try and get it running under RSTS/E, since then I could incorporate those fixes into the distribution as well.

On that ?extra system call? ? is that because RT-11 emulation on RSTS assigns an RT11 memory limit based on information in the executable file?  If so, you can work around that by switching into the RT11 runtime system, issuing the command ?SI 28? then run the program.

	paul



From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 10:23:00 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 10:23:00 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554C2B6A.9030403@jwsss.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505071059400.6925@shell.lmi.net>
 <554C17FA.5030105@pico-systems.com> <554C2B6A.9030403@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <554CD4D4.3090006@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 10:20 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
>
>
> On 5/7/2015 6:57 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Lots of 360's were owned in the later days.  All the ones 
>> I knew of, with the possible exception of Washington 
>> Universities' first 360/50
> The UMR 360/50 was one of the first owned 360s.  They were 
> given a 360/40 because IBM could not deliver the 50 on 
> schedule.  I don't know how that was handled.
>
> The 50 at UMR was also odd because it was a 512K main 
> memory machine, and 1mb of LCS, giving a non power of 2 
> memory size. Supposedly lead to some bug fixes.
>
Shouldn't have needed much software tinkering, as a number 
of other models could be set up with non power of 2 memory 
size.  Maybe a hardware quirk was that it needed to make a 
program exception if you addressed a 1.7 MB location, and 
instead it would get a machine check with a main store 
parity error.  That would take maybe just one added gate to 
trigger the program exception on the right combination of 
address bits.
> Ran HASP and MVT 21, as well as CPS
>
Well, I gotta say, our 360/65 sure beat the pants off the 
360/50 that it replaced.  In fact, the /65 beat the pants 
off TWO 370/145's they had.  They used the /145's for 
"timesharing" and got FOUR users per machine!  Wow, that was 
a riot.

Ahh, the "old days".

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 10:24:27 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 10:24:27 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CD52B.9090208@pico-systems.com>

On 05/07/2015 11:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> There are more S/360s out there than the list suggests.
>
> We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any sort of
> registry. We are a secretive bunch.
>
> At least one S/360 is in running order.
>
>
WOW, can you give more info??!!??  I'd sure like to hear 
more about that.

Jon

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Fri May  8 10:27:18 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 11:27:18 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CD5D6.9020503@yahoo.com>

On 5/7/2015 12:40 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
> Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to recreate
> the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid.  (Its accessible via
> the bbs... bbs.cortex-media.info 4223)
>
> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon, and a version of Star Trek.  Anyone got
> anything else?
>
> I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>

This is more in the vein of RSTS/E and VAX-11 games but does anyone have a copy of the Dan Lawrence DND?  It used to be hosted on <http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/> but that site's server crashed and the files were lost and the ownder did not allow the Wayback to archive it.

I wasted so much time on that at school at Rose-Hulman.  A Rose student also did a lot of modifications to our copy. I had a tape with it once but it was destroyed by accident.

Please contact me if you have or know where any versions might be available.  Thanks!

John H. Reinhardt

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Fri May  8 10:27:18 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 11:27:18 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CD5D6.9020503@yahoo.com>

On 5/7/2015 12:40 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
> Anyone got any RT11/RSTS-E games?  I'm back on with my project to recreate
> the PDP-11 that I goofed around with when I was a kid.  (Its accessible via
> the bbs... bbs.cortex-media.info 4223)
>
> I have 2.52 version of Dungeon, and a version of Star Trek.  Anyone got
> anything else?
>
> I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>

This is more in the vein of RSTS/E and VAX-11 games but does anyone have a copy of the Dan Lawrence DND?  It used to be hosted on <http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/> but that site's server crashed and the files were lost and the ownder did not allow the Wayback to archive it.

I wasted so much time on that at school at Rose-Hulman.  A Rose student also did a lot of modifications to our copy. I had a tape with it once but it was destroyed by accident.

Please contact me if you have or know where any versions might be available.  Thanks!

John H. Reinhardt

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  8 10:28:52 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  8 May 2015 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
Message-ID: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: William Donzelli

    > We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any sort
    > of registry. We are a secretive bunch.

Why is that, can I ask? I mean, it's not like a thief's going to come in and
steal the thing (which is indeed the reason why collectors in other areas are
often secretive) - it would take a truck and a crane, for most models!


    > From: Liam Proven

    > Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in NZ
    > when he was a student?

Cool story; thanks for the link - but the page says it was a 360/30. (The
smallest 'real' 360 - the 360/20 was a lobotomized 'sorta' 360/.)

	Noel

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri May  8 10:33:53 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:33:53 +0200
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 /
 RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>

I have 2 games from Infocom, but they are for the Atari,
Planetfall and Leather Goddesses of Phobos (or something like that).
However, I never saw the original ZORK for PDP-11 from Infocom ...
Does somebody on the list have a copy and willing to share?

Thanks,
- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Ethan Dicks 
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 3:54 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 / RSTS-E games) 

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> The Z-machine for RT-11 that Infocom released only handled v3 images.
>
> I only knew of the V1 version, for the original Zork I. I never knew that
> Infocom released anything past Zork I for RT-11.


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  8 10:34:43 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:34:43 +0200
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEvUc9=SE8Xx35zpThG-YJ6cCvT5s_tRf6NHFrWMgy-sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <CAMTenCEvUc9=SE8Xx35zpThG-YJ6cCvT5s_tRf6NHFrWMgy-sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEbhVO_rUM5+7+s6hw7Ws6h3Tt_bBCiHgAAQ0asn9YdGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 May 2015 at 17:05, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in NZ
> when he was a student? It was a truly epic undertaking.
>
> It's here, among other places:
> http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2245918
>
> He is now implementing one on an FPGA -- with blinkenlights output on
> the VGA port. I think one small part of the reasoning is that it's a
> lot lighter to lift...


That was meant to go to Sun-Rescue... Sorry!

Since I know he is on this list -- it's how we met -- I'd not have had
the temerity to post it here...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri May  8 10:34:47 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:34:47 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554CD52B.9090208@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CD52B.9090208@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddzaUgNYJLdv=gADFb=FgesXPM48XL747Qrsq0FPh2N-A@mail.gmail.com>

No, I can not. Not without getting permission from the owner.

The secret nature of the big iron collectors probably has to do with money
involved, as well as the extremely conservative nature of mainframing. It
has taken me years to penetrate the veil, and I am still mostly an outsider.

Far more S/360s were saved than S/370s, which is a shame, as S/370s were in
a way more important.

--
Will
On May 8, 2015 11:25 AM, "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 05/07/2015 11:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>> There are more S/360s out there than the list suggests.
>>
>> We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any sort of
>> registry. We are a secretive bunch.
>>
>> At least one S/360 is in running order.
>>
>>
>>  WOW, can you give more info??!!??  I'd sure like to hear more about that.
>
> Jon
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  8 10:37:21 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:37:21 +0200
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFTQksW3PEt8LRJKEVCtAHFFS5wJPfmbpJZr6LV3AkmPA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 May 2015 at 17:28, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Liam Proven
>
>     > Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in NZ
>     > when he was a student?
>
> Cool story; thanks for the link - but the page says it was a 360/30. (The
> smallest 'real' 360 - the 360/20 was a lobotomized 'sorta' 360/.)


My mistake and my apologies -- I've not reread it in some years.

A better source -- the lad himself!

http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 10:39:13 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 10:39:13 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150508113008.77CC218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508113008.77CC218C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <554CD8A1.3070604@pico-systems.com>

On 05/08/2015 06:30 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Jon Elson
>
>      > Well, first, rotary converters draw a LOT of imaginary power (in other
>      > words, they have an awful power factor) and so the line current can
>      > become MUCH higher than you would expect.
>      > ...
>      > We tried to rig up a phase converter scheme to run the motor-generator
>      > set on a 370/145 in a guy's house, and it did NOT go well. he only had
>      > a 60 A 240 V service, and the imaginary current was over 60 A!
>
> Had to Google 'imaginary power'... Not a lot of experience with high-power AC
> stuff! :-) ('Imaginary power' is probably not the best term to use, because
> there are actual currents involved; I like the 'reactive power' name better.)
Yup, that's another name.  The imaginary comes from the real 
and imaginary components of a complex number.
> The article I read said that in reactive load which is high in inductance
> (which is, I assume, the source of the high reactive load in rotary
> convertors - or am I confused - a common happening, I concede :-), judicious
> application of capacitance can reduce the reactive load. Why isn't this used
> with rotary convertors to reduce their reactive load?
Yes, but it takes a BIG bank of caps to compensate the 
current on a 17 KVA motor.  Meanwhile, you are trying to 
generate a reactive current (phase shifted) to drive the 3rd 
leg of the motor.  It gets messy.  Also, the cap bank is 
going to draw a huge current spike when the relays are 
closed, and that could weld contacts in the contactor.  it 
was just a fool's errand to try this on a house with 60 A 
service.
> Any idea what the active and reactive powers/currents were in that attempted
> installation?
>
Well, the MG system in the 370/145 had delta/wye starting.  
We had to have a guy HOLD the circuit breaker while in the 
wye configuration, so the total current was already over 60 
A.  Then, when we closed the delta contactor, he could NOT 
hold the breaker closed with both hands.  That's when we 
knew we were totally beat. But, you can compute the line 
current for a 17 KVA motor.  Line current should be about 40 
A with real 3-phase power.  If you need to run this off a 
single-phase 240 V mains, then the line current just to 
satisfy the unity power factor requirement would be closer 
to 70 A.  Add in bad power factor from the phase shifting 
scheme, and you could easily end up over 100 A without a 
huge phase compensating cap bank.  Now, the crazy thing is 
the /145 had a DC power dissipation of 1.9 KW, if I remember 
right!  390 A at 4.8 V. (They used +1.3 and -3.5 V I think, 
so it put their ECL terminators at ground.)  I think they 
used the same MG sets for a range of different computer models.

The only sane fix would have been to scrounge up some big 
switching power supplies and replace the whole PS system on 
the machine.  But, then, the guy that had this would have 
been able to load microcode and key in programs to type 
stuff on the console typewriter.  He'd still need a disk 
controller and a com controller at the very least.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  8 10:41:04 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 08:41:04 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <554CD910.3090300@sydex.com>

On 05/08/2015 08:28 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> Cool story; thanks for the link - but the page says it was a 360/30. (The
> smallest 'real' 360 - the 360/20 was a lobotomized 'sorta' 360/.)

"Lobotomized" is being far too generous.  16 instead of 32-bit GRs, vast 
swatches of instructions missing;.. it was quite a shock to someone 
moving down from the Model 30+ systems.

--Chuck



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri May  8 10:41:53 2015
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 16:41:53 +0100
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
 <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEJihWtxro5xrxOKurLSVMmA_jU41gSSCR35nZARVT2rA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 May 2015 at 14:40, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

>
> How about start by grabbing ZEMU, and make it run properly on RSTS/E then?
>
> Once you have that done, we could get back to the TCP/IP thing... ;-)
>
>
> See, if I had tcp/ip, I'd move the whole BBS into RSTS. (:

Okay, I'm game.  What is it written in?  ...and where may I find it?  I
thought someone said they already had it working?



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri May  8 10:42:43 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:42:43 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, a thief *would* come in and steal the things - at least the cards.

When I was shopping for a building for my collection, I had the scrap metal
thieves in mind. I am not so worried about it now, as I live at the place
now and have taken several steps to beef up security, but for a time, my
fear was that someone would, for example, grab a armful of cards out of a
Cyber, instantly turning the machine into a chrome donut. Where would I get
replacements?

--
Will
On May 8, 2015 11:29 AM, "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>     > From: William Donzelli
>
>     > We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any
> sort
>     > of registry. We are a secretive bunch.
>
> Why is that, can I ask? I mean, it's not like a thief's going to come in
> and
> steal the thing (which is indeed the reason why collectors in other areas
> are
> often secretive) - it would take a truck and a crane, for most models!
>
>
>     > From: Liam Proven
>
>     > Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in
> NZ
>     > when he was a student?
>
> Cool story; thanks for the link - but the page says it was a 360/30. (The
> smallest 'real' 360 - the 360/20 was a lobotomized 'sorta' 360/.)
>
>         Noel
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  8 10:52:54 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  8 May 2015 11:52:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane documentation needed
Message-ID: <20150508155254.50D2D18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Hi, all, I have a Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane here, and I'm interested in
finding some documentation for it. I looked online, but couldn't find
anything?

This site:

  http://www.compsy.de/gebr-vax/repman_verl.htm

seems to list one, and does apparently 'rent' documentation, but I'm not sure
they're ready to rent something to someone on another continent. (If someone
in Europe can assist in dealing with them, I'd be extremely grateful.)


I do have a manual for the vaguely similar PM-F11/SPC backplane (which I would
be happy to scan promptly if anyone has a need for it; otherwise, it will get
scanned when I obtain a round tuit), and that, plus an ohmmeter, would
probably allow me to eventually figure out the PM-D11, but I figured I'd look
and see if I could save all that work, and put it into something else... :-)

     Noel

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri May  8 11:03:01 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 09:03:01 -0700
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554CD5D6.9020503@yahoo.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CD5D6.9020503@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <256BC5F1-E3BF-4A20-BF76-1F134E432778@aracnet.com>


On May 8, 2015, at 8:27 AM, "John H. Reinhardt" <johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com> wrote:

> This is more in the vein of RSTS/E and VAX-11 games but does anyone have a copy of the Dan Lawrence DND?  It used to be hosted on <http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/> but that site's server crashed and the files were lost and the ownder did not allow the Wayback to archive it.
> 
> I wasted so much time on that at school at Rose-Hulman.  A Rose student also did a lot of modifications to our copy. I had a tape with it once but it was destroyed by accident.
> 
> Please contact me if you have or know where any versions might be available.  Thanks!
> 
> John H. Reinhardt

I had better still have a copy for VAX/VMS.  Though the system it is on, may be on that's only accessible via DECNET, and I'm not sure what is needed to bring up either of my VMS boxes.  I didn't think there was a PDP-11 version on the website, but I may be wrong.  It may also have been a PDP-10 version I was trying to find.

I love that game! :-)  It's one of my main reasons for keeping a VAX running! :-)

Zane




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri May  8 11:10:51 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 12:10:51 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CE91EF91-23CE-455E-AEC8-E4F1DFCEFC04@comcast.net>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CE91EF91-23CE-455E-AEC8-E4F1DFCEFC04@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmOnx1opuAa43UkjbsNuddfKe62Y84t+sQ9JwSaoMx3FQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> On that ?extra system call? ? is that because RT-11 emulation on RSTS
> assigns an RT11 memory limit based on information in the executable file?

That seems right.

> If so, you can work around that by switching into the RT11 runtime system,
> issuing the command ?SI 28? then run the program.

Ah... did not know that (I was never a RSTS/E hacker back in the day -
we had v6, v7, v8 and v9 at work for supporting our few remaining RSTS
customers and our accounting department in 1985) but I myself didn't
do much on the systems that wasn't previously delved and documented.
I've done a *lot* more on RSX-11 and RT-11 (including serious
development).

Thanks for that tip.  I may have to bust out a RSTS implementation on
Simh to try things out.

-ethan

From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 11:25:05 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 18:25:05 +0200
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11
 / RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> I have 2 games from Infocom, but they are for the Atari,
> Planetfall and Leather Goddesses of Phobos (or something like that).
> However, I never saw the original ZORK for PDP-11 from Infocom ...
> Does somebody on the list have a copy and willing to share?

Do you want it with the original Z-machine implementation? Otherwise 
just grab ZEMU and the Zork I binary, and start playing. Zork I, II and 
III were made available for free downloading from Activision at one 
point, so I have no qualms about sharing those files if anyone wants them.

	Johnny


From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Fri May  8 11:22:50 2015
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 09:22:50 -0700
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <256BC5F1-E3BF-4A20-BF76-1F134E432778@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <1431102170.51874.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On May 8, 2015, at 8:27 AM, "John H. Reinhardt" <johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com>
wrote:
 
> This is more in the vein of RSTS/E and VAX-11 games but
> does anyone have a copy of the Dan Lawrence DND?? It
> used to be hosted on <http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/> but that site's
> server crashed and the files were lost and the ownder did
> not allow the Wayback to archive it.
> 
> I wasted so much time on that at school at
> Rose-Hulman.? A Rose student also did a lot of
> modifications to our copy. I had a tape with it once but it
> was destroyed by accident.

Is that the one Dan Day worked on?  I'm pretty sure he did that
before I got there, but as I remember the story, he played the
game and got to the point where there wasn't really an endgame.
So he wrote a FORTRAN decompiler to turn the binary into source
that he could modify, wrote an endgame, and then recompiled
the results.

BLS


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 11:27:07 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 18:27:07 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEJihWtxro5xrxOKurLSVMmA_jU41gSSCR35nZARVT2rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se> <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqEJihWtxro5xrxOKurLSVMmA_jU41gSSCR35nZARVT2rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CE3DB.5080207@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 17:41, John Many Jars wrote:
> On 8 May 2015 at 14:40, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>>
>> How about start by grabbing ZEMU, and make it run properly on RSTS/E then?
>>
>> Once you have that done, we could get back to the TCP/IP thing... ;-)
>>
>>
>> See, if I had tcp/ip, I'd move the whole BBS into RSTS. (:
>
> Okay, I'm game.  What is it written in?  ...and where may I find it?  I
> thought someone said they already had it working?

It's written in MACRO-11. You can find it at 
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/zemu.tgz

And noone have yet given me any actual information/code/whatever for 
getting it working under RSTS/E.

	Johnny


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri May  8 11:40:51 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 12:40:51 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554CE3DB.5080207@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se>
 <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqEJihWtxro5xrxOKurLSVMmA_jU41gSSCR35nZARVT2rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CE3DB.5080207@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn50+u5J6ARsb=ksn6FiBuOWz9B05uYvFSU2DvCufGFqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 2015-05-08 17:41, John Many Jars wrote:
>> Okay, I'm game.  What is it written in?  ...and where may I find it?  I
>> thought someone said they already had it working?

There's been a flurry of traffic and at least one assumption made.
What I posted that I said I have is the original Infocom RT-11 engine,
decompiled to Macro-11 source that someone sent me.  The original
compiles just fine on real RT-11, but I did a one-line hack at VCF
East 8 to allow it to compile and run on RSTS.  ZEMU is an entirely
different thing, also Macro-11 source, and has been successfully
compiled on RT-11 and RSX-11 but not yet (as far as anyone knows)
compiled and run under RT-11 emulation on RSTS/E.  I am away from my
repositories for the weekend, so I can't just peek and see what's
where.  If nobody grabs ZEMU source and tries it out on RSTS in the
next few days, I'll be free again next week to see where things stand.

Also, AFAIK, the Infocom-written Z-machine I have plays V3 games only
(there are only 1 or 2 V1 or V2 files anyway).  ZEMU plays V1-V8 and
will likely provide a nicer experience.

-ethan

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri May  8 11:41:28 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:41:28 +0100
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <031901d089ad$d504e640$7f0eb2c0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
> Chiappa
> Sent: 08 May 2015 16:29
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: 360/50 microcode listing
> 
>     > From: William Donzelli
> 
>     > We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any
sort
>     > of registry. We are a secretive bunch.
> 
> Why is that, can I ask? I mean, it's not like a thief's going to come in
and steal
> the thing (which is indeed the reason why collectors in other areas are
often
> secretive) - it would take a truck and a crane, for most models!
> 
> 
>     > From: Liam Proven
> 
>     > Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in
NZ
>     > when he was a student?
> 
> Cool story; thanks for the link - but the page says it was a 360/30. (The
> smallest 'real' 360 - the 360/20 was a lobotomized 'sorta' 360/.)

It's a 30 and runs DOS. He now has a converted selectric console. Its very
impressive...

> 
> 	Noel


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 11:47:24 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 18:47:24 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn50+u5J6ARsb=ksn6FiBuOWz9B05uYvFSU2DvCufGFqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEvVyqGCd15vgmuB5So9fnz4FRGECXzoMy8ZGGz648_bDOr5FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=EFk4dX-hTNLTxtUtRsBEmaqUoPT9Va=cYZpvkeOCH0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C04AE.3020907@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmim=cfaXjfPdhP5q6D9O=yWUub9tFgvm_7_owrE1=HEK_Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C15A1.2010804@update.uu.se> <20150508044559.GA24512@dbit.dbit.com>
 <CAALmimnfewbP8DgSMG3RZ4Zv=Rxkgk1rRu0k-jXfBTf_KCRqKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554C854F.2010409@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqHh5dTAug31VyfWSscLWs78UJzG4jQkPjJjzXd9s1mJPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CBCE1.5010004@update.uu.se>
 <CAEvVyqEJihWtxro5xrxOKurLSVMmA_jU41gSSCR35nZARVT2rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CE3DB.5080207@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmimn50+u5J6ARsb=ksn6FiBuOWz9B05uYvFSU2DvCufGFqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CE89C.4020105@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 18:40, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> On 2015-05-08 17:41, John Many Jars wrote:
>>> Okay, I'm game.  What is it written in?  ...and where may I find it?  I
>>> thought someone said they already had it working?
>
> There's been a flurry of traffic and at least one assumption made.

Right. My mistake.

> What I posted that I said I have is the original Infocom RT-11 engine,
> decompiled to Macro-11 source that someone sent me.  The original
> compiles just fine on real RT-11, but I did a one-line hack at VCF
> East 8 to allow it to compile and run on RSTS.

Yup. Nice that you have it, though.

>  ZEMU is an entirely
> different thing, also Macro-11 source, and has been successfully
> compiled on RT-11 and RSX-11 but not yet (as far as anyone knows)
> compiled and run under RT-11 emulation on RSTS/E.  I am away from my
> repositories for the weekend, so I can't just peek and see what's
> where.  If nobody grabs ZEMU source and tries it out on RSTS in the
> next few days, I'll be free again next week to see where things stand.

If someone could find out if it works, or fix it so that it does work, 
it would be wonderful.

> Also, AFAIK, the Infocom-written Z-machine I have plays V3 games only
> (there are only 1 or 2 V1 or V2 files anyway).  ZEMU plays V1-V8 and
> will likely provide a nicer experience.

Actually, V1 and V2 games are the ones I have definitely not tested. As 
you say - there aren't that many. So, if you actually do have one, be 
warned that the ZEMU code is untested. That said, any bugs should be 
easy to fix...

I believe that only a very early version of Zork I was ever released 
using the V1 version of the Z-machine. Zork II might have existed in a 
release for V2, but I think pretty much everything else is V3 or later, 
and Zork I and II were released in V3 format as well.

	Johnny


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri May  8 11:49:27 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:49:27 +0200
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 /
 RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
 <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Johnny Billquist
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 6:25 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 / 
RSTS-E games)

On 2015-05-08 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> I have 2 games from Infocom, but they are for the Atari,
> Planetfall and Leather Goddesses of Phobos (or something like that).
> However, I never saw the original ZORK for PDP-11 from Infocom ...
> Does somebody on the list have a copy and willing to share?

Do you want it with the original Z-machine implementation? Otherwise
just grab ZEMU and the Zork I binary, and start playing. Zork I, II and
III were made available for free downloading from Activision at one
point, so I have no qualms about sharing those files if anyone wants them.

Johnny

-----
Hi Johnny,
I was merely curious. I have ZEMU (of course), and way back I did
the "proof-reading" of the documentation for you.  I hope to have a few
PDP-11 systems up and running soon, and then the question arises
"what to do".  ZEMU and play files is probably #1  :-)

Back to my question ... I have heard (read) several times that Infocom
released ZORK for PDP-11, but never read  "I have that".
Is that software also lost forever?

Greetz,
- Henk


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri May  8 11:52:49 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 18:52:49 +0200
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11
 / RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
 <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se> <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <554CE9E1.5060007@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-08 18:49, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Johnny Billquist
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 6:25 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re:
> RT11 / RSTS-E games)
>
> On 2015-05-08 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>> I have 2 games from Infocom, but they are for the Atari,
>> Planetfall and Leather Goddesses of Phobos (or something like that).
>> However, I never saw the original ZORK for PDP-11 from Infocom ...
>> Does somebody on the list have a copy and willing to share?
>
> Do you want it with the original Z-machine implementation? Otherwise
> just grab ZEMU and the Zork I binary, and start playing. Zork I, II and
> III were made available for free downloading from Activision at one
> point, so I have no qualms about sharing those files if anyone wants them.
>
> Johnny
>
> -----
> Hi Johnny,
> I was merely curious. I have ZEMU (of course), and way back I did
> the "proof-reading" of the documentation for you.  I hope to have a few
> PDP-11 systems up and running soon, and then the question arises
> "what to do".  ZEMU and play files is probably #1  :-)

Sorry. I have a short memory. :-)

> Back to my question ... I have heard (read) several times that Infocom
> released ZORK for PDP-11, but never read  "I have that".
> Is that software also lost forever?

I think this is exactly what Ethan Dicks said... :-)
(Ie. he do have it.)

	Johnny


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri May  8 13:04:51 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 14:04:51 -0400
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 /
 RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
 <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se>
 <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk-9noF8j5YdnFpXBnxDD+tUKYUBxBjMpBN-6EVcsvtkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Do you want it with the original Z-machine implementation? Otherwise
> just grab ZEMU and the Zork I binary, and start playing.

I've been mining my own mailbox here, and I am now refreshed of a
64-message thread 5 years ago about ZEMU, in particular, that it does
not compile under RT-11 v5.3 owing to SYSTEM.MLB, but it compiles fine
under RT-11 v5.7.

I do *not* know how that maps to versions of RSTS/E.

-ethan

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Fri May  8 13:05:49 2015
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:05:49 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <1431102170.51874.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1431102170.51874.YahooMailBasic@web184702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <554CFAFD.10106@yahoo.com>

On 5/8/2015 12:22 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote:
> On May 8, 2015, at 8:27 AM, "John H. Reinhardt" <johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is more in the vein of RSTS/E and VAX-11 games but
>> does anyone have a copy of the Dan Lawrence DND?  It
>> used to be hosted on <http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/> but that site's
>> server crashed and the files were lost and the ownder did
>> not allow the Wayback to archive it.
>>
>> I wasted so much time on that at school at
>> Rose-Hulman.  A Rose student also did a lot of
>> modifications to our copy. I had a tape with it once but it
>> was destroyed by accident.
>
> Is that the one Dan Day worked on?  I'm pretty sure he did that
> before I got there, but as I remember the story, he played the
> game and got to the point where there wasn't really an endgame.
> So he wrote a FORTRAN decompiler to turn the binary into source
> that he could modify, wrote an endgame, and then recompiled
> the results.
>
> BLS
>
>
Brian, Yep!  I got a copy on magtape before I left Rose but I made the mistake of leaving the tape unguarded when I was working at Flour-Fernald here in Cincinnati and an operator in the computer room initialized it. :(

Dan had written a town into it and there were 4 or 5 different dungeons you could explore by going back to town.  That part was experimental AFAIK and you had to know someone to get to play it.  I never did.

It sure would have been nice if someone would have archived all the software at Rose before the PDP and VAX left.

John H. Reinhardt



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri May  8 13:07:09 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:07:09 -0700
Subject: ZORK I for PDP-11 -- was: Z-machines for PDP-11 (was Re: RT11 /
 RSTS-E games)
In-Reply-To: <554CE9E1.5060007@update.uu.se>
References: <CAALmimkNVc8fkEd9MM29SbMvoQ2U7UsewhXj2Zuzd6HODr3Dhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DUB110-DS17BE47FDD1922EF54C9D3886DE0@phx.gbl>
 <554CE361.9020206@update.uu.se> <DUB110-DS4C6376E4BC76B3226F18286DE0@phx.gbl>
 <554CE9E1.5060007@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <E865292F-D1E2-42D7-B8AB-D84746EB2A7E@aracnet.com>


On May 8, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

>> Back to my question ... I have heard (read) several times that Infocom
>> released ZORK for PDP-11, but never read  "I have that".
>> Is that software also lost forever?
> 
> I think this is exactly what Ethan Dicks said... :-)
> (Ie. he do have it.)
> 
> 	Johnny

Well, he at least has decompiled source, that can be compiled.

At times I feel like the Infocom version of Zork is like DECnet for RT-11.

Zane




From jws at jwsss.com  Fri May  8 13:12:35 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 11:12:35 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>



On 5/8/2015 8:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> Yes, a thief*would*  come in and steal the things - at least the cards.
>
> When I was shopping for a building for my collection, I had the scrap metal
> thieves in mind. I am not so worried about it now, as I live at the place
> now and have taken several steps to beef up security, but for a time, my
> fear was that someone would, for example, grab a armful of cards out of a
> Cyber, instantly turning the machine into a chrome donut. Where would I get
> replacements?
I hope that doesn't occur despite you being on the property.  I own a 
house which had a 3 ton A/C unit stolen while the house was occupied.  
If you have an outbuilding I hope it is properly secured to sound an 
alarm, and is physically secure to make entry by casual thieves difficult.

thanks
Jim


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May  8 13:20:43 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:20:43 +0000
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554CA9F6.6060906@gmail.com>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com>
 <20150508060735.GA31480@Update.UU.SE>,<554CA9F6.6060906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2DA3@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>>> Jon (& Al),
>>>
>>> Quick photo of it here:
>>>
>>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>>>
>>
>> Ah, this picture would have ended the speculation days ago.
>
>Ok, I'll let you have that, I suppose it was ~27 hours :-)
>
>> It's
>> a keytronic keyboard compatible with VT100. I have one and will
>> pull it out to see if it has the same labels or if your keyboard
>> was intended for a special application.

FWIW, the PERQ 2 series uses a similar keyboard (Keytronics, roughly
VT100 layout) without the LEDs. It's been some time since I've been 
inside one (I can open one up if needed) but I think the PCB in the PERQ
keyboard has the traces/pads for the LEDs. 

I seem to remember various companies sold keyboards with VT100 like
layouts, things like the LEDs were optional. You could also get custom 
firmware (which defined the interface), or get the specs to write your
own firmware (I think 3 Rivers did the latter for the PERQ).

> > Yes, please check. This one has a circular DIN connector, 5 pins, 180
> > degrees, but I don't recall if that's what the vt100 has or not.

The VT100 uses a 3 conductor 1/4" jack (Phone) plug, like a full-sized 
stereo headphone plug. The PERQ used a 5 pin DIN, but this is certainly
not a PERQ keyboard. I think I have seen DE9 connectors used on such
keyboards too.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May  8 13:28:23 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:28:23 +0000
Subject: Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane documentation needed
In-Reply-To: <20150508155254.50D2D18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508155254.50D2D18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2DD8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Hi, all, I have a Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane here, and I'm interested in
> finding some documentation for it. I looked online, but couldn't find
> anything?

How many slots? I assume it's hex height. What (if anything) are the power input connectors?

Is there any reason to assume it's not a clone of a standard DEC backplane (Plessey stuff often was), the
'SPC' part of the name suggests a Unibus peripheral backplane ('SPC' = 'Small Peripheral Controller'). 

-tony

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May  8 14:17:14 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  8 May 2015 15:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane documentation needed
Message-ID: <20150508191714.8C6E418C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: tony duell

    >> I have a Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane here

    > How many slots? I assume it's hex height. What (if anything) are the
    > power input connectors?

9; yes; it has the standard 9-pin connector as used on the 11/05-10, and the
early /40s and /45s. (FWLIW, the documentation for the PM-F11 says that _it_
comes with either the same 9-pin connector power harness, or the harness with
the newer 15-/6-pin connector pair, and gives part numbers for each.)

The harness of this one is subtly different, though - instead of all fast-on
tabs at the backplane end, there is a DuPont header on the backplane (looks
like 10 pin), and a bunch of the pins on the large 9-pin connector are
connected to that (not just ACLO and DCLO, but e.g. there are a pair which
are connected to +5V, and another pair to ground (the latter two also go to
fast-on tabs).

    > Is there any reason to assume it's not a clone of a standard DEC
    > backplane ... the 'SPC' part of the name suggests a Unibus peripheral
    > backplane

Oh, I'm sure it's _some_ form of SPC backplane - it has the NPG jumpers from
CA1 to CB1 on all 9 slots, for instance. And it has a bunch of wires running
from 1A/B down to the CDEF part, and then back from CDEF to 9A/B. And the NPG
is routed from 1A down to CA1/CA2, and then back up to 9A.

But I'm trying to figure out exactly what sort of SPC backplane it is. E.g.
it looks like slots 2-8 _might_ be MUD (the signals from 1A/B are bussed
across all those slots on A/B, over to 9A/B). But without documentation, or
a lot of ohm-meter work...

	Noel

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri May  8 15:15:28 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:15:28 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>

Is this a complete system including CPU, or just some I/O and storage devices?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161698775806

Maybe something like a 9370?

www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/9370/GA24-4031-0_9370_Installation_Manual_Physical_Planning_Oct86.pdf

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Fri May  8 15:18:03 2015
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:18:03 +0000
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>,
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>

Looks fairly complete to me.

I've seen that one before...
________________________________________
From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 1:15 PM
To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 360/50 microcode listing

Is this a complete system including CPU, or just some I/O and storage devices?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161698775806

Maybe something like a 9370?

www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/9370/GA24-4031-0_9370_Installation_Manual_Physical_Planning_Oct86.pdf

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri May  8 15:24:36 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 21:24:36 +0100
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <045e01d089cd$01a9ca70$04fd5f50$@gmail.com>

I can't see a CPU in that lot anywhere. Could be a 9370 or an AS/400

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> Sent: 08 May 2015 21:15
> To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: 360/50 microcode listing
> 
> Is this a complete system including CPU, or just some I/O and storage
> devices?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161698775806
> 
> Maybe something like a 9370?
> 
> www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/9370/GA24-4031-
> 0_9370_Installation_Manual_Physical_Planning_Oct86.pdf


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri May  8 15:31:52 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 15:31:52 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>,
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
Message-ID: <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>

Yep, that one was seen here and discussed at length... what, maybe 4 months
ago?

J



From isking at uw.edu  Fri May  8 15:32:47 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:32:47 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <2DD3CC36-B6AB-44F9-B54A-C4702034BEE3@bitscience.ca>
 <554C1A4E.9040407@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dcAjfB7d6ywUBNeTZX4Syffg4a11eBhagGr4iu4CMWJJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02EX6sa_-_wk=tyO1qMxGZn7x7jH5=KxZ-fJ2VKZnQksQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Will, are you still worried that IBM will come asking for 'their'
machine back?  :-)

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:19 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> There are more S/360s out there than the list suggests.
>
> We, the big iron collectors, do not share this information on any sort of
> registry. We are a secretive bunch.
>
> At least one S/360 is in running order.
>
> --
> Will
> On May 7, 2015 10:07 PM, "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
> > On 05/07/2015 01:56 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a reliable estimate of the number of extant relatively complete
> >> and/or actually working System/360 machines? A registry, perhaps?
> >>
> >> I would find that to be a very interesting data point.
> >>
> >> - Rob
> >>
> > This is certainly not authoritative, but the best I've found so far :
> > http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/System360/index.html
> >
> > Jon
> >
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May  8 15:40:53 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:40:53 +0000
Subject: Plessey PM-D11/SPC-1 backplane documentation needed
In-Reply-To: <20150508191714.8C6E418C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150508191714.8C6E418C0A0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C2E99@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> But I'm trying to figure out exactly what sort of SPC backplane it is. E.g.
> it looks like slots 2-8 _might_ be MUD (the signals from 1A/B are bussed
> across all those slots on A/B, over to 9A/B). But without documentation, or
> a lot of ohm-meter work...

IIRC the difference (at least on 18-bit addressing machines) between the MUD
pinout and the Unibus (as in slots 1A/B and 9A/B) are power and grounds
connections. The logic signals are in the same place. It shouldn't be too
hard to check if there are power lines on 2A/B..8A/B that match up with MUD
pinouts.

-tony

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri May  8 15:43:45 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 13:43:45 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554D2001.30308@jwsss.com>

On 5/8/2015 1:15 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> Is this a complete system including CPU, or just some I/O and storage devices?
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161698775806
>
> Maybe something like a 9370?
>
> www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/9370/GA24-4031-0_9370_Installation_Manual_Physical_Planning_Oct86.pdf
I believe that in the past this listing was discussed, and it is 
remnants of a system, mostly DASD and printers.

it has been up for quite a while
Jim


From lists at loomcom.com  Fri May  8 13:59:58 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:59:58 -0500
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <20150508185958.GA12890@loomcom.com>

* On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 04:02:15PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe <j_hoppe at t-online.de> wrote:
> PDP11GUI is at v1.46 now.

Hello J?rg,

I'm having a lot of trouble with pdp11gui 1.46. My goal is to transfer
an RD53 image from simh to a physical PDP-11/73 with an RQDX3
controller.

Whenever I attempt to run MACRO11 or to load the MSCP driver, I
receive the error message:

   "E/A Fehler - 103"

I don't know what's going on. I assume this means that it can't find
the MACRO11 binary to compile the driver, but it is located in the
pdp11gui directory. I even made sure to add this directory to my PATH,
just in case that was needed, but it does not seem to have helped.

Am I doing something wrong?

Best Wishes,

-Seth

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Fri May  8 15:50:39 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:50:39 +0000
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554C19DC.9020809@pico-systems.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <554C19DC.9020809@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E208DC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Jon Elson
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 7:05 PM

> But, no, there is a list of known/suspected/rumored 360's, and it
> lists 15 or 16 "real" 360 processors (I'm excluding the 360/20, of
> which they list 5 units.)

> There are several KA10's RUNNING!  Compared to how many of those were
> built, there seem to be a LOT higher percentage of those still extant
> than of the 360's.  (Maybe a bunch are still to be revealed, I
> suppose.)  And, I'm pretty sure there are NO 360's running.  The LCM
> is trying to get a 360/20 running.  Maybe they are going to start with
> a small project before attempting something harder.

Where are there *any* KA10s running????  That's a very bold claim.  We
only know of 3 complete KA10s in existence, and none of them is running.
We have been searching for a KA10 for the museum since before it *was* a
museum.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri May  8 16:08:30 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 14:08:30 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <20150508185958.GA12890@loomcom.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <20150508185958.GA12890@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY7xzRch-yQBeqRL0=SMeMRo-yEkvfV8BTWFusDUdnpqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:

> * On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 04:02:15PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe <
> j_hoppe at t-online.de> wrote:
> > PDP11GUI is at v1.46 now.
>
> Hello J?rg,
>
> I'm having a lot of trouble with pdp11gui 1.46. My goal is to transfer
> an RD53 image from simh to a physical PDP-11/73 with an RQDX3
> controller.
>
> Whenever I attempt to run MACRO11 or to load the MSCP driver, I
> receive the error message:
>
>    "E/A Fehler - 103"
>
> I don't know what's going on. I assume this means that it can't find
> the MACRO11 binary to compile the driver, but it is located in the
> pdp11gui directory. I even made sure to add this directory to my PATH,
> just in case that was needed, but it does not seem to have helped.
>

I hit the exact same issue on my machine; I tried running it with Admin
privileges and that seems to have worked around the problem.  Apparently
something PDP11GUI is doing with the MACRO11 assembler requires more
privileges... that should probably be fixed :).

Otherwise, it's a nice piece of software (and I also very much appreciate
the XXDP database that he's put together...)

- Josh


>
> Am I doing something wrong?
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> -Seth
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Fri May  8 16:22:05 2015
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:22:05 -0700
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>,
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <554D28FD.3050709@jwsss.com>



On 5/8/2015 1:31 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Yep, that one was seen here and discussed at length... what, maybe 4 months
> ago?
>
> J
I looked a bit.  It is buried somewhere in the 4381 / HP3000 thread, but 
I coundn't find it.

Thanks
Jim


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri May  8 17:16:46 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:16:46 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcqX8CJ8Xs8Lmd2MOpOuj2j0LjPqc=Dp_xaPg1OvVqOUg@mail.gmail.com>

The guy is very difficult to work with - you just can not pin him down
on ANYTHING. I have asked for pictures, model numbers, prices,
availability - and all I get are short, nearly content-free answers.

But he sure wants me to make an offer on the lot...

--
Will

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Yep, that one was seen here and discussed at length... what, maybe 4 months
> ago?
>
> J
>
>

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri May  8 17:17:38 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 18:17:38 -0400
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554D28FD.3050709@jwsss.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANij+ddmUgjLBcfU3WLJobxkHRx5a9eVm6Wh=Gc7=bSy8uszBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554CFC93.5050301@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLifMqqUpG2tma+vu+_OAVgTGSu=zgfdEN8uev9KXQf1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E768B88A25@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>
 <001701d089ce$0532d4b0$0f987e10$@classiccmp.org>
 <554D28FD.3050709@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddXMd-Ut_PY31KdkGRE3_Qf_sqjDtUwq9qYE2RcLfLL2A@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah...whatever happened to that pile? The best thing was probably the
3830 control unit.

--
Will

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:22 PM, jim s <jwsmail at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 5/8/2015 1:31 PM, Jay West wrote:
>>
>> Yep, that one was seen here and discussed at length... what, maybe 4
>> months
>> ago?
>>
>> J
>
> I looked a bit.  It is buried somewhere in the 4381 / HP3000 thread, but I
> coundn't find it.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
>

From isking at uw.edu  Fri May  8 19:27:33 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:27:33 -0700
Subject: PDP11GUI v1.46
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLY7xzRch-yQBeqRL0=SMeMRo-yEkvfV8BTWFusDUdnpqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <553F92E7.9030908@t-online.de> <20150508185958.GA12890@loomcom.com>
 <CADBZjLY7xzRch-yQBeqRL0=SMeMRo-yEkvfV8BTWFusDUdnpqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ030hPSEqEv+O6rxx=qoRaqaE3_aQ4Ad8aEaa-Wj98zunQ@mail.gmail.com>

One person's experience:

I trashed my Mac's OS X install by trying to go the Homebrew route for
WINE.  After restoring it, I tried WineBottler, which contains a compiled
version of WINE - it works fine, and I now have the UI running.  Now to
configure things?.  I'm looking forward to playing with this.  Thanks,
J?rg!  -- Ian

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> > * On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 04:02:15PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe <
> > j_hoppe at t-online.de> wrote:
> > > PDP11GUI is at v1.46 now.
> >
> > Hello J?rg,
> >
> > I'm having a lot of trouble with pdp11gui 1.46. My goal is to transfer
> > an RD53 image from simh to a physical PDP-11/73 with an RQDX3
> > controller.
> >
> > Whenever I attempt to run MACRO11 or to load the MSCP driver, I
> > receive the error message:
> >
> >    "E/A Fehler - 103"
> >
> > I don't know what's going on. I assume this means that it can't find
> > the MACRO11 binary to compile the driver, but it is located in the
> > pdp11gui directory. I even made sure to add this directory to my PATH,
> > just in case that was needed, but it does not seem to have helped.
> >
>
> I hit the exact same issue on my machine; I tried running it with Admin
> privileges and that seems to have worked around the problem.  Apparently
> something PDP11GUI is doing with the MACRO11 assembler requires more
> privileges... that should probably be fixed :).
>
> Otherwise, it's a nice piece of software (and I also very much appreciate
> the XXDP database that he's put together...)
>
> - Josh
>
>
> >
> > Am I doing something wrong?
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> >
> > -Seth
> >
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 21:52:14 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 21:52:14 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEvUc9=SE8Xx35zpThG-YJ6cCvT5s_tRf6NHFrWMgy-sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <CAMTenCEvUc9=SE8Xx35zpThG-YJ6cCvT5s_tRf6NHFrWMgy-sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554D765E.3070405@pico-systems.com>

On 05/08/2015 10:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 7 May 2015 at 19:16, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> You can't do that with a real 360 (some 360/20's were pretty small), even a
>> 360/30 was a pretty big box.
>
> Have you read Lawrence Wilkison's account of rescuing an S360/20 in NZ
> when he was a student? It was a truly epic undertaking.
>
>
YES, and I have saved it on my machine!  A GREAT tale.  But, 
that machine probably no longer exists.
It was a 360/30 (NOT /20) by the way.  A 360/20 is a 16-bit 
mini, and not instruction set compatible with the 360 series.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 22:00:43 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 22:00:43 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <031901d089ad$d504e640$7f0eb2c0$@gmail.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <031901d089ad$d504e640$7f0eb2c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554D785B.6080600@pico-systems.com>

On 05/08/2015 11:41 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>
>
> It's a 30 and runs DOS. He now has a converted selectric console. Its very
> impressive...
>
>
OK, the last time I read this, it seemed that he no longer 
had access to the system.  Here's a quote :
After that the system languished. I occasionally fired it up to
demonstrate it, but eventually I gave up paying the rent on 
the office and had
the power disconnected. The building has gone through 
several owners since then.
At some stage someone broke the office door down and stole 
the bookshelf that
held my manuals. I haven't been back there since.

That was written in 1995.  So, I figured that the machine 
had likely been trashed by now.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May  8 22:06:25 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 22:06:25 -0500
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E208DC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org>
 <554B9DF1.8050005@pico-systems.com>
 <007501d088f0$bcd18280$36748780$@gmail.com>
 <554C19DC.9020809@pico-systems.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E208DC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <554D79B1.8010001@pico-systems.com>

On 05/08/2015 03:50 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Jon Elson
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 7:05 PM
>
>> But, no, there is a list of known/suspected/rumored 360's, and it
>> lists 15 or 16 "real" 360 processors (I'm excluding the 360/20, of
>> which they list 5 units.)
>> There are several KA10's RUNNING!  Compared to how many of those were
>> built, there seem to be a LOT higher percentage of those still extant
>> than of the 360's.  (Maybe a bunch are still to be revealed, I
>> suppose.)  And, I'm pretty sure there are NO 360's running.  The LCM
>> is trying to get a 360/20 running.  Maybe they are going to start with
>> a small project before attempting something harder.
> Where are there *any* KA10s running????  That's a very bold claim.  We
> only know of 3 complete KA10s in existence, and none of them is running.
> We have been searching for a KA10 for the museum since before it *was* a
> museum.
>
>
OH, sorry, I got them mixed up, I thought YOU had one 
running there!  Geez, I wouldn't think it would be all that 
hard to get a KA10 running, just a LOT of discrete 
transistors.  A couple guys at Wash U got a Linc running a 
few years ago.  Mostly all they had to do was put new 
capacitors in the power supply.  Of course, I know there's a 
LOT more logic in a KA10.

I'm pretty sure I have heard of some KA10's running, 
somewhere, in the last decade, but that could be apocryphal.

Jon

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Fri May  8 22:48:52 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:48:52 -0700
Subject: Old Control Data Drives
Message-ID: <CFC80578F8544ED8A007283A1E57024C@RosemarysPC>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

Really great (7 track) drives; substantially over-engineered as compared 
to, say, a 65x drive.  The 604 wasn't quite as fast as the look=alike 
607, but nothing to sneeze at.  If you've got  160A, 3000-series or 
6000-series machine (and associated controller), it'd be a really great 
drive to have.

--Chuck
____________________________________________________________

These were great tape drives.  The 604 was 75ips versus 150ips for the 607.  Both drives were 200/556/800 bpi 7 track units.

The weight was a killer.  But they were extremely reliable, easy to work on and easy to interface.  Al has manuals on them (I know because I loaned them to him) and I have a lot spare parts if someone wanted to try to get them working.

These would be a good choice for recovering old 7 track tapes.  They used vacuum tensioning columns and vacuum capstans.  So very little contact with the magnetic slurry side of the tape.

Billy Pettit

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Fri May  8 22:51:22 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 20:51:22 -0700
Subject: Old Control Data Tape Drives
Message-ID: <CF099E5147E842098AB0E1C6854E557B@RosemarysPC>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

Really great (7 track) drives; substantially over-engineered as compared 
to, say, a 65x drive.  The 604 wasn't quite as fast as the look=alike 
607, but nothing to sneeze at.  If you've got  160A, 3000-series or 
6000-series machine (and associated controller), it'd be a really great 
drive to have.

--Chuck
____________________________________________________________

These were great tape drives.  The 604 was 75ips versus 150ips for the 607.  Both drives were 200/556/800 bpi 7 track units.

The weight was a killer.  But they were extremely reliable, easy to work on and easy to interface.  Al has manuals on them (I know because I loaned them to him) and I have a lot spare parts if someone wanted to try to get them working.

These would be a good choice for recovering old 7 track tapes.  They used vacuum tensioning columns and vacuum capstans.  So very little contact with the magnetic slurry side of the tape.

Billy Pettit

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Fri May  8 18:09:20 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 19:09:20 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=8mC+9ge-a3C0LK9y8E__dfiDyMYFcA52aoZCc-TOTjLg@mail.gmail.com>

The RICM rescued a very nice PDP-12 today.
Pictures and details to follow.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri May  8 21:54:19 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 21:54:19 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=8mC+9ge-a3C0LK9y8E__dfiDyMYFcA52aoZCc-TOTjLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=8mC+9ge-a3C0LK9y8E__dfiDyMYFcA52aoZCc-TOTjLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150509025419.GA306@lonesome.com>

On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 07:09:20PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote:
> The RICM rescued a very nice PDP-12 today.

[applause]

From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Fri May  8 23:20:10 2015
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 06:20:10 +0200
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <554D785B.6080600@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150508152852.23C9218C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <031901d089ad$d504e640$7f0eb2c0$@gmail.com>
 <554D785B.6080600@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <554D8AFA.9090301@ljw.me.uk>



On 09/05/15 05:00, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 05/08/2015 11:41 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's a 30 and runs DOS. He now has a converted selectric console. Its 
>> very
>> impressive...
>>
>>
> OK, the last time I read this, it seemed that he no longer had access 
> to the system.  Here's a quote :
> After that the system languished. I occasionally fired it up to
> demonstrate it, but eventually I gave up paying the rent on the office 
> and had
> the power disconnected. The building has gone through several owners 
> since then.
> At some stage someone broke the office door down and stole the 
> bookshelf that
> held my manuals. I haven't been back there since.
>
> That was written in 1995.  So, I figured that the machine had likely 
> been trashed by now.
>
> Jon
>
Dave was referring to the FPGA version, here's it (and me) from a while 
back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HffTSo9zpYI

But yes, the original is long gone. The front panel survives in the
University of Auckland Computer Science department:
https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/historydisplays/FourthFloor/MainFrameComputers/System360Model30.php

Regret for abandoning it was the main reason I started the
re-creation project.

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                          lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May  8 23:25:41 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 21:25:41 -0700
Subject: Old Control Data Drives
In-Reply-To: <CFC80578F8544ED8A007283A1E57024C@RosemarysPC>
References: <CFC80578F8544ED8A007283A1E57024C@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <554D8C45.1090207@sydex.com>

On 05/08/2015 08:48 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:

> These were great tape drives.  The 604 was 75ips versus 150ips for
> the 607.  Both drives were 200/556/800 bpi 7 track units.
>
> The weight was a killer.  But they were extremely reliable, easy to
> work on and easy to interface.  Al has manuals on them (I know
> because I loaned them to him) and I have a lot spare parts if someone
> wanted to try to get them working.
>
> These would be a good choice for recovering old 7 track tapes.  They
> used vacuum tensioning columns and vacuum capstans.  So very little
> contact with the magnetic slurry side of the tape.

Yup.   If a machine had a row of drives consisting of 657s and 607s, I'd 
always go for the 607s--just a better drive.  Someone mentioned that the 
657's had a cost-reduced voice-coil valve that accounted for some of its 
junkiness.  The 66x were particularly bad in this respect--crowding bits 
when writing short records--I remember spending a week holding a 
customer's hand while new firmware was worked up to fix the problem.

--Chuck



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May  9 06:07:24 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  9 May 2015 07:07:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
Message-ID: <20150509110724.32D1418C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    On 05/08/2015 03:50 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

    > We only know of 3 complete KA10s in existence

Where, if I may ask, just out of curiousity?

	Noel

From keith at saracom.com  Sat May  9 08:17:27 2015
From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 09:17:27 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1431104400.29826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1431104400.29826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <8a64be8fc72e5ad54c29d20f4c865b11@saracom.com>

 

Re: RT11 / RSTS-E games 

I obviously have done something wrong when moving files about etc. Hence
depending on which way you get there, they may not link. 

For now all the games I have are available here: 

http://www.saracom.com/pdp11/pdp11.htm 

thanks 

Max 

------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Thu, 7 May 2015
19:42:52 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> To: "General
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: RT11 / RSTS-E games Message-ID:
<CAALmim=yauqgpg7hc_4vN=1d41WtEA=MPS0P8=4wjNav-4c3TA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:34 PM,
Peter Coghlan <cctalk at beyondthepale.ie> wrote: 

> Lyle Bickley wrote: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: This one? Appears to be a bad link :(
 Try http://pdp11.saracom.com/games/spcinv.zip [1] instead. 

Nice catch.

Thanks!

-ethan

 

Links:
------
[1] http://pdp11.saracom.com/games/spcinv.zip

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May  9 10:44:23 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 11:44:23 -0400
Subject: Old Control Data Tape Drives
In-Reply-To: <CF099E5147E842098AB0E1C6854E557B@RosemarysPC>
References: <CF099E5147E842098AB0E1C6854E557B@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <AEBEEC92-964A-4687-B078-FA440E53451D@comcast.net>


> On May 8, 2015, at 11:51 PM, Billy Pettit <bpettitx at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> These were great tape drives.  The 604 was 75ips versus 150ips for the 607.  ...
> These would be a good choice for recovering old 7 track tapes.  They used vacuum tensioning columns and vacuum capstans.  So very little contact with the magnetic slurry side of the tape.

Vacuum columns done correctly ? not like the IBM error of putting the tape down the column with the magnetic surface facing outward.  I remember that from our college 360 model 44.

	paul



From martin at shackspace.de  Sat May  9 10:47:03 2015
From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 17:47:03 +0200
Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimk+-xocLiG+SoD6zW=W-QSJLL8iS57-dAZtpp6R4XFsrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkkuRmcTdO5woetJZNFsC4DJE7EFJoEWMCPzWj73i1hog@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150425151226.GA12@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimk+-xocLiG+SoD6zW=W-QSJLL8iS57-dAZtpp6R4XFsrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150509154703.GA15299@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

Hi Ethan!

Ethan Dicks:
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Martin Peters <martin at shackspace.de> wrote:
> > Did you already check the model and have a look inside for the
> > ROM labels?
> 
> Hi, Martin,
> 
> I am out of town this weekend and have not had the chance to crack
> open the machine.  I will get back Sunday night and see what's
> possible then.

Did you have a look inside? :-)

Gruss,
Martin
-- 
Martin Peters
martin.peters at news.uni-stuttgart.de

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sat May  9 11:09:55 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 12:09:55 -0400
Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
In-Reply-To: <20150509154703.GA15299@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
References: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkkuRmcTdO5woetJZNFsC4DJE7EFJoEWMCPzWj73i1hog@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150425151226.GA12@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimk+-xocLiG+SoD6zW=W-QSJLL8iS57-dAZtpp6R4XFsrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150509154703.GA15299@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkijsX6pU8yGMuj=GB-CsA0qUHP=M8+Pm5tUxKYa+vsrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Martin Peters <martin at shackspace.de> wrote:
> Hi Ethan!

Hi, Martin,

I don't mind the reminder, but I'm offsite for this weekend then out
of town for business early next week.  Sorry to drag this out, but
I've had an odd couple of weeks.

-ethan

From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Sat May  9 13:39:44 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 11:39:44 -0700
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <8a64be8fc72e5ad54c29d20f4c865b11@saracom.com>
References: <mailman.3.1431104400.29826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <8a64be8fc72e5ad54c29d20f4c865b11@saracom.com> 
Message-ID: <20150509183945.2C588404EA@smtp.hushmail.com>


While not DEC specific don't forget about 101 Basic computer games:

https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decBooks10Mar75_26006648

Most aren't that great but there are a few interesting ones to play with.


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat May  9 19:29:42 2015
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:29:42 +1200
Subject: MacPlus video on YouTube
Message-ID: <CACaZngnO-43fswGSxwgpq=z1CyNWop6wiPSN+63aDd-QtCoh7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Just another video showing one of my units for anyone who might be
interested.
I was lucky to get this one in such a clean undamaged condition.  It did
require some work to get it into shape for this video though.  Bad solder
joints on the analogue board...it's almost a standard feature of these
machines, just like leaky caps in the later models!

Anyway...
https://youtu.be/v_m2sfcDDvg

Terry (Tez)

From t.gardner at computer.org  Sat May  9 20:08:07 2015
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 18:08:07 -0700
Subject: Vermont Research 5017
Message-ID: <005601d08abd$c6becef0$543c6cd0$@computer.org>

Anyone have any literature on the Vermont Research 5017?  

It was a cartridge drive shipped from 1975 until 1985 probably rebadged and
sold under some system manufacturer's label.  Most likely the first HDD to
use embedded servo in a production drive.

Tom



From jws at jwsss.com  Sat May  9 23:34:45 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 21:34:45 -0700
Subject: Vermont Research 5017
In-Reply-To: <005601d08abd$c6becef0$543c6cd0$@computer.org>
References: <005601d08abd$c6becef0$543c6cd0$@computer.org>
Message-ID: <554EDFE5.3000808@jwsss.com>



On 5/9/2015 6:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> Anyone have any literature on the Vermont Research 5017?
> It was a cartridge drive shipped from 1975 until 1985 probably rebadged and
> sold under some system manufacturer's label.
I have Syquest drives, as well as Jazz drives which both had embedded 
servos.  No literature on them at my fingertips.
>    Most likely the first HDD to
> use embedded servo in a production drive.
First embedded servo drive I saw was a Tulin 1/2 high 5 1/4" form 
factor, 40mb RLL.  Mine was still functional last time I fired it up.  
It worked longer than a lot of other drives with servo tracks. They 
largely died due to media (probably stuck) or servo problems though.  I 
think the Tulin and it's successors were plated media as well, rather 
than oxide.

I am not sure that the difference is because of plated media vs. oxide, 
anyone have a track record to discuss that?
>
> Tom
>
>
>


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun May 10 03:56:34 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:56:34 +0100
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
Message-ID: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>

I recall back in the late 70s using an IBM 029 Card Punch to punch cards for
the DECSYSTEM-20.

 

As I understand it, the 029 was an EBCDIC machine, but of course the
DECSYSTEM-20 was ASCII.

 

Does that mean there was an ASCII version of the 029, or that there was
something in the card reader software on TOPS-20 that converted EBCDIC to
ASCII?

 

Regards

 

Rob


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun May 10 04:02:02 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 05:02:02 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
Message-ID: <e0bf1.26830970.4280788a@aol.com>

naw.... the  card reader read  punches  and the    reader  driver  made it  
readable on  your machine! !
 
there  were some  for  hp-2000 also and ho 3000    we would love to  find  
one  for the  smecc museum  here  in az   if anyone has an  HP setup!
 
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC 
 
 
In a message dated 5/10/2015 1:56:51 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com writes:

I recall  back in the late 70s using an IBM 029 Card Punch to punch cards 
for
the  DECSYSTEM-20.



As I understand it, the 029 was an EBCDIC  machine, but of course the
DECSYSTEM-20 was ASCII.



Does that  mean there was an ASCII version of the 029, or that there was
something in  the card reader software on TOPS-20 that converted EBCDIC  to
ASCII?



Regards



Rob



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 10 05:15:43 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:15:43 +0200
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <20150509183945.2C588404EA@smtp.hushmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1431104400.29826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <8a64be8fc72e5ad54c29d20f4c865b11@saracom.com>
 <20150509183945.2C588404EA@smtp.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <554F2FCF.7030105@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-09 20:39, Kirk B Davis wrote:
>
> While not DEC specific don't forget about 101 Basic computer games:
>
> https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decBooks10Mar75_26006648
>
> Most aren't that great but there are a few interesting ones to play with.

Right.
And maybe not DEC-specific, but definitely DEC-related as the book was 
originally published by DEC, and Dave Ahl was working at DEC when he 
wrote it, and I think BASIC+ was the dialect used.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 10 05:18:12 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:18:12 +0200
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <554F3064.6020506@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-10 10:56, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> I recall back in the late 70s using an IBM 029 Card Punch to punch cards for
> the DECSYSTEM-20.
>
>
>
> As I understand it, the 029 was an EBCDIC machine, but of course the
> DECSYSTEM-20 was ASCII.
>
>
>
> Does that mean there was an ASCII version of the 029, or that there was
> something in the card reader software on TOPS-20 that converted EBCDIC to
> ASCII?

Punched cards are actually not EBCDIC. Nor are they ASCII.
That said, yes, the card reader driver needs to translate the card 
encoding into ASCII when reading cards.

	Johnny


From simski at dds.nl  Sun May 10 07:42:38 2015
From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:42:38 +0200
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>

there is no such thing as a ascii 029. The code on the cards is fixed. Translation occurs on the receiving side with a lookuptable.

On 10-05-15 10:56, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> I recall back in the late 70s using an IBM 029 Card Punch to punch cards for
> the DECSYSTEM-20.
>
>
>
> As I understand it, the 029 was an EBCDIC machine, but of course the
> DECSYSTEM-20 was ASCII.
>
>
>
> Does that mean there was an ASCII version of the 029, or that there was
> something in the card reader software on TOPS-20 that converted EBCDIC to
> ASCII?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>

-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sun May 10 09:55:55 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 07:55:55 -0700
Subject: Winners for the Type 'n Run "code golf" contest on RetroBattlestations
Message-ID: <75B890AB-09BC-4CE1-AB7A-764F463BCDD3@fozztexx.com>

I just posted the winners for the Type ?n Run contest for April on RetroBattlestations. Lots of very interesting programs that people submitted. Entries came in for a variety of computers like the IBM PC, the BBC Micro, the TRS-80 CoCo, and even one for the Texas Instruments CC-40!

Check out all the entries, and maybe submit a program of your own! The Type ?n Run contest is an ongoing challenge with winners selected every month.

http://redd.it/35ht9w

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May 10 09:58:46 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:58:46 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
Message-ID: <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>

Correct.  And a number of DEC operating systems had card reader support.  I haven?t seen them very often on DEC machines, but for example RSTS can handle at least 026 and 029 card codes, and some vague memory says there may have been a ?1401? table as well.

Not well known, but there are card codes for lower case, and in fact IBM operating systems could handle that though it wasn?t commonly seen.  And in fact there are card codes in the EBCDIC code table for all 256 possible 8-bit values; you?d find those in binary card decks.  Again, not all that common, but 360 diagnostics would sometimes show up as binary card decks (I remember DX11 diagnostics where the IBM end was delivered in that form).  And the 360 model 44 ?emulator IPL? deck (for the string instructions, which were emulated in software similar to how low end VAXes did their instruction subset) was a binary deck.

> On May 10, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
> 
> there is no such thing as a ascii 029. The code on the cards is fixed. Translation occurs on the receiving side with a lookuptable.


From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Sun May 10 10:22:59 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 11:22:59 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
 <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb22OUBkwgz8bUCtZopzm49dAA40o47W15Mw6hJozNENqg@mail.gmail.com>

Please forgive any typos, I'm writing this on my phone.

On Sunday, 10 May 2015, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Not well known, but there are card codes for lower case, and in fact IBM
> operating systems could handle that though it wasn?t commonly seen.  And in
> fact there are card codes in the EBCDIC code table for all 256 possible
> 8-bit values; you?d find those in binary card decks.

On John Savard's site he has a page on punched cards and card codes. By any
chance is the representation of the card code correct for the full
eight-bit spectrum?
<http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cardint.htm>

Also perhaps this is somewhat off topic, but were there ever card punches
on DEC machines? I know of the various readers, but not punches except I
think for the '10.


Regards,
Christian


-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 10 11:40:00 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:40:00 -0700
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <554F89E0.7020306@sydex.com>

On 05/10/2015 07:58 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> Correct.  And a number of DEC operating systems had card reader
> support.  I haven?t seen them very often on DEC machines, but for
> example RSTS can handle at least 026 and 029 card codes, and some
> vague memory says there may have been a ?1401? table as well.

One *could* get an 029 with nearly any *character set* implemented.  For 
example, CDC Display Code 029s were all over place at CDC installations.

Many older machines did perform translation of punch codes into 
character codes in hardware (eg. the 1401, 1620, etc.) but by the mid 
60s, the usual procedure was to read the card in column or row-binary 
and perform the translation with software. (eg. 1130 and later)

--Chuck

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun May 10 13:36:05 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:36:05 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
 <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>

> Correct.  And a number of DEC operating systems had card reader support.  I haven?t seen them very often on DEC machines, but for example RSTS can handle at least 026 and 029 card codes, and some vague memory says there may have been a ?1401? table as well.

This should come as no surprise.

We often think that DEC machines were all doing cool things like
running railroads or controlling high energy physics experiments, but
a large number of PDP-11s spent their lives running plain old business
software.

--
Will

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May 10 13:38:25 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:38:25 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>


> On May 10, 2015, at 2:36 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Correct.  And a number of DEC operating systems had card reader support.  I haven?t seen them very often on DEC machines, but for example RSTS can handle at least 026 and 029 card codes, and some vague memory says there may have been a ?1401? table as well.
> 
> This should come as no surprise.
> 
> We often think that DEC machines were all doing cool things like
> running railroads or controlling high energy physics experiments, but
> a large number of PDP-11s spent their lives running plain old business
> software.

Indeed, but I think that even in that application card readers were not all that common.  The batch card model was more an IBM thing, with DEC systems tending more to terminal input.

	paul



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun May 10 13:52:34 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:52:34 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
 <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>

> Indeed, but I think that even in that application card readers were not all that common.  The batch card model was more an IBM thing, with DEC systems tending more to terminal input.

Yes, but PDP-11s were right in that sweet spot in the business
environment. Plenty of businesses had all their records on cards, even
if they had service bureaus do all the processing, and DEC wanted to
grab part of the end of the punch card era of thinking.

One has to wonder if that very specific strategy did not work as
planned, as we rarely see any actual PDP-11s with card machines.
Perhaps the service bureaus themselves did the media conversion, and
DEC then moved in after that cards were gone. The support for handling
cards still stuck around for the stragglers.

--
Will

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 10 14:06:23 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 21:06:23 +0200
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-10 20:52, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Indeed, but I think that even in that application card readers were not all that common.  The batch card model was more an IBM thing, with DEC systems tending more to terminal input.
>
> Yes, but PDP-11s were right in that sweet spot in the business
> environment. Plenty of businesses had all their records on cards, even
> if they had service bureaus do all the processing, and DEC wanted to
> grab part of the end of the punch card era of thinking.
>
> One has to wonder if that very specific strategy did not work as
> planned, as we rarely see any actual PDP-11s with card machines.
> Perhaps the service bureaus themselves did the media conversion, and
> DEC then moved in after that cards were gone. The support for handling
> cards still stuck around for the stragglers.

I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC 
machines could punch cards. You normally had free standing terminals on 
which cards were punched, and then the cards were read in later.

RSX have three types of queues, printers, batch, and card spoolers. Card 
spoolers were purely for punched cards, so there obviously was at some 
point a far amount of those around for describing jobs to be performed.

I was contacted by someone (I can't remember who right now) not so long 
ago, about how the input card queues worked, since he couldn't get it to 
work on the latest version of RSX. And it turns out that that software 
have bit rotted. Other parts of RSX have been updated and changed to the 
point where the batch input card queue no longer works properly. I guess 
noone have tested that one in a long time. I don't remember exactly what 
the problem was, but I think it was either that the format of messages 
for the batch manager itself have changed (happened in 1993, when there 
was an year wrap issue coming up), or else something about named 
directories.

	Johnny


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May 10 14:08:31 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 15:08:31 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <26134E25-841E-4443-9544-13BA627EE9EA@comcast.net>


> On May 10, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC machines could punch cards. You normally had free standing terminals on which cards were punched, and then the cards were read in later.

I have never seen mention of PDP-11 card punches, but I think I did see them mentioned in connection with the PDP-10.

	paul



From t.gardner at computer.org  Sun May 10 14:11:11 2015
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 12:11:11 -0700
Subject: Vermont Research 5017
In-Reply-To: <554EDFE5.3000808@jwsss.com>
References: <005601d08abd$c6becef0$543c6cd0$@computer.org>
 <554EDFE5.3000808@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <003401d08b55$14113f20$3c33bd60$@computer.org>

FWIW ZIP, Jaz, SyQuest and Tulin are much later, into the 80's or 90s.  The
first SyQuest was not really an embedded servo; one burst per revolution for
thermal correction as I recall.

The early announced embedded servo drives were more or less in order
1975 - Vermont Research 5017
1976? - Burroughs 9383
1976 - CII D120 (Cynthia)
1976 - Diablo 400 series (which may never have shipped)
1977 - DEC RL01

FWIW the servo technology was patented about 1961 and assigned to IBM
Plated media had a troubled life in HDDs, see the Ampex Alar story at
http://chmhdd.wikifoundry.com/page/Ampex%20Alar 

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: jwsmobile [mailto:jws at jwsss.com] 
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2015 9:35 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Vermont Research 5017



On 5/9/2015 6:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> Anyone have any literature on the Vermont Research 5017?
> It was a cartridge drive shipped from 1975 until 1985 probably 
> rebadged and sold under some system manufacturer's label.
I have Syquest drives, as well as Jazz drives which both had embedded
servos.  No literature on them at my fingertips.
>    Most likely the first HDD to
> use embedded servo in a production drive.
First embedded servo drive I saw was a Tulin 1/2 high 5 1/4" form factor,
40mb RLL.  Mine was still functional last time I fired it up.  
It worked longer than a lot of other drives with servo tracks. They largely
died due to media (probably stuck) or servo problems though.  I think the
Tulin and it's successors were plated media as well, rather than oxide.

I am not sure that the difference is because of plated media vs. oxide,
anyone have a track record to discuss that?
>
> Tom
>
>
>




From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sun May 10 09:42:43 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:42:43 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>

The RICM is restoring a PDP-12. This system was manufactured in December of
1972, so it is very late in the life of the PDP-12. The Priority Interrupt
and the Data Multiplexer are hardwired in two extra columns in the
processor chassis. These options were in separate chassis in earlier
models. It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
chassis. We got the LP01 too.

The donor did a great job of preserving the machine, and has all of the
original documentation and software. The processor and RK8-F prints are
newer than what I can find on the Web, so I will scan them and send the
PDFs to Bitsavers.

Yesterday we reformed the caps in the power supply and powered it on for
the first time in 24 years. It is going to need some debugging, but it does
show some signs of life.

The CRT in the VR14


-- 
Michael Thompson

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sun May 10 09:45:10 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:45:10 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_QHeeFtjWG7oUf3P5bB180tB=Zz=PqtvhJg1KkesQfYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I sent the message before I was finished.

The CRT in the VR14 has severe screen rot. Hopefully we can find a
replacement CRT, or get some help with removing the outer layer of glass.
One of the lime green switches on the front panel has broken pivots. Anyone
have a spare?

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> The RICM is restoring a PDP-12. This system was manufactured in December
> of 1972, so it is very late in the life of the PDP-12. The Priority
> Interrupt and the Data Multiplexer are hardwired in two extra columns in
> the processor chassis. These options were in separate chassis in earlier
> models. It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
> Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
> Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
> chassis. We got the LP01 too.
>
> The donor did a great job of preserving the machine, and has all of the
> original documentation and software. The processor and RK8-F prints are
> newer than what I can find on the Web, so I will scan them and send the
> PDFs to Bitsavers.
>
> Yesterday we reformed the caps in the power supply and powered it on for
> the first time in 24 years. It is going to need some debugging, but it does
> show some signs of life.
>
> The CRT in the VR14
>
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
>



-- 
Michael Thompson

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun May 10 09:48:53 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:48:53 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_QHeeFtjWG7oUf3P5bB180tB=Zz=PqtvhJg1KkesQfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=_QHeeFtjWG7oUf3P5bB180tB=Zz=PqtvhJg1KkesQfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20=U=924NV_CScQYoB_-xi2A7Qhr+iqTAsDkJLsrsUaqA@mail.gmail.com>

have u though of just drilling its pivit point out and puting a metal rod
through to pin it?

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I sent the message before I was finished.
>
> The CRT in the VR14 has severe screen rot. Hopefully we can find a
> replacement CRT, or get some help with removing the outer layer of glass.
> One of the lime green switches on the front panel has broken pivots. Anyone
> have a spare?
>
> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Michael Thompson <
> michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The RICM is restoring a PDP-12. This system was manufactured in December
> > of 1972, so it is very late in the life of the PDP-12. The Priority
> > Interrupt and the Data Multiplexer are hardwired in two extra columns in
> > the processor chassis. These options were in separate chassis in earlier
> > models. It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
> > Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
> > Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
> > chassis. We got the LP01 too.
> >
> > The donor did a great job of preserving the machine, and has all of the
> > original documentation and software. The processor and RK8-F prints are
> > newer than what I can find on the Web, so I will scan them and send the
> > PDFs to Bitsavers.
> >
> > Yesterday we reformed the caps in the power supply and powered it on for
> > the first time in 24 years. It is going to need some debugging, but it
> does
> > show some signs of life.
> >
> > The CRT in the VR14
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michael Thompson
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
>

From davebrougham at comcast.net  Sun May 10 10:38:35 2015
From: davebrougham at comcast.net (Dave)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 15:38:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xerox 820 II Baltimore MD area
In-Reply-To: <1280713820.14725297.1429925931232.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>



I have a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2, monitor, dual disk drive, keyboard, daisy wheel printer, manuals, and cables. Wondering if anyone is interested in saving it from the dump, OBO. Bad news, I powered it up recently and the screen flickered and jumped for about 5 minutes before the wisp of smoke. The visible damage is a film capacitor on what looks like a power supply board in the monitor. Five years ago it powered up and was working as far as I could tell. Baltimore, Maryland area (USA). Not a list subscriber, will check list daily for a while, then weekly... 




Dave 

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun May 10 15:45:38 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 15:45:38 -0500
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
Message-ID: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>

John wrote....

----
I'm still looking for Oregon Software Pascal as well...
----
I said I would look, I did, and it was fruitful.

I have in my hands an original distribution fedex shipping box from Oregon software to my high school (Saint Louis University High) containing:
Oregon Software Pascal-2 Software Development System version 2.1F for RT-11 release package checklist (RN-121, august 1988):
	Installation & Release notes
Oregon Language Letter, Summer 1988, announcing two new compilers (Oregon Modula-2 and Oregon C++)
8 SS/SD RX01 format disks containing P-2 RT-11 v2.1F (original, Oregon software labels, including my high schools site/license number)
Oregon Software Field Report form (4 carbon copy)

Misc Notes of my own from a skim of the above:
The compiler version here runs under RT-11 v5 or later
The compiler can run under XM or SJ monitors
Programs compiled with the compiler can run under FB, BL, SJ, or XM
Minimum requirements: EIS. P-2 uses FPP hardware or simulated floating point software (FIS). Also need 3500 blocks to install, and during compilation about 500 blocks are used for temporary storage. Computers with only flexible disk systems do not have enough storage.

I have no idea if these diskettes are still readable. I know my high school was fastidious about making a copy and then locking the masters away so these disks likely only saw one read. I do know that they used this software extensively, and there may well be other copies of these floppies around here.

I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.

So in the interest of completeness, anyone have other RT-11 versions of other Oregon Software's compilers?

I also found original S&H distribution copies of TSX+ v5, v6, and v6.2 (again, stamped with my high schools license number).

Best,

J





From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun May 10 15:51:31 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 13:51:31 -0700
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>


On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.

I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.

Zane




From useddec at gmail.com  Sun May 10 15:13:31 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 15:13:31 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMmuBcc2+45nrmsA4yuKfAMosa=dV7tDQ8_psaJsP-oRA@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds great. Did the newer PDP-12s come with a VR14? I thought most came
with a VR12.

I would love to have a LP01 if anyone out there has one they don't need.

Paul

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> The RICM is restoring a PDP-12. This system was manufactured in December of
> 1972, so it is very late in the life of the PDP-12. The Priority Interrupt
> and the Data Multiplexer are hardwired in two extra columns in the
> processor chassis. These options were in separate chassis in earlier
> models. It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
> Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
> Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
> chassis. We got the LP01 too.
>
> The donor did a great job of preserving the machine, and has all of the
> original documentation and software. The processor and RK8-F prints are
> newer than what I can find on the Web, so I will scan them and send the
> PDFs to Bitsavers.
>
> Yesterday we reformed the caps in the power supply and powered it on for
> the first time in 24 years. It is going to need some debugging, but it does
> show some signs of life.
>
> The CRT in the VR14
>
>
> --
> Michael Thompson
>

From pontus at update.uu.se  Sun May 10 15:42:44 2015
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 22:42:44 +0200
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>

On 05/10/2015 04:42 PM, Michael Thompson wrote:
> It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
> Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
> Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
> chassis. We got the LP01 too.
>

Sounds like a very nice PDP-12 setup. Does the Omnibus expansion allow 
for Omnibus memory as well?

/P

From georgerachor at gmail.com  Sun May 10 16:03:40 2015
From: georgerachor at gmail.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:03:40 -0700
Subject: Xerox 820 II Baltimore MD area
In-Reply-To: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
References: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2A5A5CD2-A703-4F23-8C83-B6E6D0D182F8@gmail.com>

That was dual 8 inch or 5.25 inch drives?

George Rachor
Hillsboro, OR

george at rachors.com <mailto:george at rachors.com>


> On May 10, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Dave <davebrougham at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2, monitor, dual disk drive, keyboard, daisy wheel printer, manuals, and cables. Wondering if anyone is interested in saving it from the dump, OBO. Bad news, I powered it up recently and the screen flickered and jumped for about 5 minutes before the wisp of smoke. The visible damage is a film capacitor on what looks like a power supply board in the monitor. Five years ago it powered up and was working as far as I could tell. Baltimore, Maryland area (USA). Not a list subscriber, will check list daily for a while, then weekly... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave 


From georgerachor at gmail.com  Sun May 10 16:03:40 2015
From: georgerachor at gmail.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 14:03:40 -0700
Subject: Xerox 820 II Baltimore MD area
In-Reply-To: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
References: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2A5A5CD2-A703-4F23-8C83-B6E6D0D182F8@gmail.com>

That was dual 8 inch or 5.25 inch drives?

George Rachor
Hillsboro, OR

george at rachors.com <mailto:george at rachors.com>


> On May 10, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Dave <davebrougham at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2, monitor, dual disk drive, keyboard, daisy wheel printer, manuals, and cables. Wondering if anyone is interested in saving it from the dump, OBO. Bad news, I powered it up recently and the screen flickered and jumped for about 5 minutes before the wisp of smoke. The visible damage is a film capacitor on what looks like a power supply board in the monitor. Five years ago it powered up and was working as far as I could tell. Baltimore, Maryland area (USA). Not a list subscriber, will check list daily for a while, then weekly... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave 


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun May 10 16:10:21 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 16:10:21 -0500
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>

On 05/10/2015 03:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
> On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.
> I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.
Yes, I'm sure these are the same company.

Jon


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun May 10 16:47:56 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:47:56 -0400
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>


> On May 10, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/10/2015 03:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>> On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.
>> I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.
> Yes, I'm sure these are the same company.

OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.

	paul


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 10 18:13:23 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 01:13:23 +0200
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <554FE613.2040404@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-10 23:47, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On May 10, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 05/10/2015 03:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>>> On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.
>>> I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.
>> Yes, I'm sure these are the same company.
>
> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.

Yeah, that matches my memory as well.
And I thought I had seen OMSI Pascal for RSTS/E or RT-11 on Trailing 
Edge, but I can only find it for RSX now that I'm looking around...
Oh well...

	Johnny


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun May 10 21:19:55 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 19:19:55 -0700
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>


On May 10, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

> 
>> On May 10, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 05/10/2015 03:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>>> On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.
>>> I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.
>> Yes, I'm sure these are the same company.
> 
> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.
> 
> 	paul

That's still what it stands for, and they're still around.

Zane




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun May 10 23:49:37 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 00:49:37 -0400
Subject: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <554F2FCF.7030105@update.uu.se>
References: <mailman.3.1431104400.29826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <8a64be8fc72e5ad54c29d20f4c865b11@saracom.com>
 <20150509183945.2C588404EA@smtp.hushmail.com>
 <554F2FCF.7030105@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkgxa-njDy6_P5=TRNak_Y2EZNAZOv9r_h5kOJMRDQVQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 6:15 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 2015-05-09 20:39, Kirk B Davis wrote:
>>
>> While not DEC specific don't forget about 101 Basic computer games:
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decBooks10Mar75_26006648
>
> Right.
> And maybe not DEC-specific, but definitely DEC-related as the book was
> originally published by DEC, and Dave Ahl was working at DEC when he wrote
> it, and I think BASIC+ was the dialect used.

There are numerous mentions in that edition of different systems,
RSTS/E, EduSystem 15, 20, 30, 35, 50, and the odd DECsystem-10.  One
example, the header for the run for "AMAZIN" says "EDUSYSTEM 30".

I learned a lot about system differences and porting to different
environments when I had a copy of the DEC edition of this book in 1978
and only a 4K Commodore PET at the main library to work on.  My first
attempt at typing in a program failed dismally because I didn't yet
know that Microsoft BASIC preferred ":" as a statement separator and
DEC BASIC used "\" (then there was RANDOMIZE and several other
dialectical differences, and beyond that, trying to fit 72-column
outputs on a 40 column machine).

Very educational once I got past the initial stumbles.  I typed in a
wad of programs from that book.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun May 10 23:58:25 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 00:58:25 -0400
Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkijsX6pU8yGMuj=GB-CsA0qUHP=M8+Pm5tUxKYa+vsrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkkuRmcTdO5woetJZNFsC4DJE7EFJoEWMCPzWj73i1hog@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150425151226.GA12@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimk+-xocLiG+SoD6zW=W-QSJLL8iS57-dAZtpp6R4XFsrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150509154703.GA15299@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkijsX6pU8yGMuj=GB-CsA0qUHP=M8+Pm5tUxKYa+vsrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnJOemq_cu4kiw3EHYW-RYO3hmrvr69bNZ+kqMvBDfHTg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Martin,

I looked at the machine today - unfortunately, it's sealed up with
torx and I didn't have the right tools with me.  Also, I'm not sure
what panels I have to remove to get fast access to where the EPROMs
are.  Can you send a photo of where the board is located?  I haven't
found a link to a service manual, but that would be helpful too, if
there's one out there.

I'm on a plane in a few hours, then back later in the week.

Cheers,

-ethan

From davebrougham at comcast.net  Sun May 10 21:58:26 2015
From: davebrougham at comcast.net (Dave)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 02:58:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Fwd: Xerox 820 II Baltimore MD area
In-Reply-To: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
References: <1882626502.10614451.1431272315723.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1170386104.10948085.1431313106220.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net>

Looks like it's gone, thanks all for replying. 

Dave 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dave" <davebrougham at comcast.net> 
To: cctech at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Xerox 820 II Baltimore MD area 



I have a Xerox 820-II with CP/M 2.2, monitor, dual disk drive, keyboard, daisy wheel printer, manuals, and cables. Wondering if anyone is interested in saving it from the dump, OBO. Bad news, I powered it up recently and the screen flickered and jumped for about 5 minutes before the wisp of smoke. The visible damage is a film capacitor on what looks like a power supply board in the monitor. Five years ago it powered up and was working as far as I could tell. Baltimore, Maryland area (USA). Not a list subscriber, will check list daily for a while, then weekly... 




Dave 


From hpfparts at yahoo.com  Mon May 11 01:32:34 2015
From: hpfparts at yahoo.com (HP Friedrichs)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 06:32:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-1000 and PDP computer parts available
Message-ID: <1739742308.4825563.1431325954524.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I have a sizable collection of HP-1000 circuit cards, as well as a couple of PDP cards. 

They take up a lot of space in my workshop, so I'd like to find a home for them.

Please see my web site here for a complete list of parts:
The H.P. Friedrichs (AC7ZL) Homepage
Thanks and 73,PeteAC7ZL

| ? |
| ? |  | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? |
| The H.P. Friedrichs (AC7ZL) HomepageThe Homepage of H. P. Friedrichs |
|  |
| View on www.hpfriedrichs.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
| ? |



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 02:01:10 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:01:10 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
Message-ID: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>


Hi all,

I've got a VAX4000/300 lately to save it from the dumpster.
I've cleaned the machine an powered up. It taked several tries
to get the PSU working stable, it shut off itself the first ~10 tries
but works stable now.
(Yes I know all about forming electrolytic caps but have my own point of
view regarding supplying under voltage to switching psu's)

The machine is doing the Post until the final displayed letter "3" in
the LED Display.

The machine is equipped with 64MB RAM, an KA670, and on the QBUS with the
KZQSA DSSI and the TK70 Controllers and additional am CMD CQD200.
Disks are 2x RF31 one RF71 and a TK70.
I currently have no console device connected to the machine, must crimp a
MMJ cable first..
The Problem ist, that one of the RF31 Disks doesnt go to ready and the
Fault LED lights up.

What can I do to further investigate the Drive fault?
Are DSSI disks starting up themselves after applying Power and ACLO or
has the controller to supply a spindle start command?
re those disks known to have sticking heads sometimes?
I would do some test on the drive w/o the machine since I don't have any
test equipment in the room where the machine now is..

Any hints?

If anyone has a spare RF31 or RF71 (or similar) to sell or additional MS670
memory for an hobbyist price, please mail me. I'm in germany, europe.


Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 02:36:21 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:36:21 +0200
Subject: MMJ Cabling between VAX4000/300 and VT420
Message-ID: <20150511073621.GC36763@beast.freibergnet.de>

Hi guys,

I have to make a console cable for the VAX4000/300 and an VT420 Terminal.
How are the pins to be connected? One to One or with an rollover
(1-6,2-5,4-3)?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon May 11 04:41:07 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:41:07 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: MMJ Cabling between VAX4000/300 and VT420
Message-ID: <01PLUFPS3XFQ0004E1@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I have to make a console cable for the VAX4000/300 and an VT420 Terminal.
> How are the pins to be connected? One to One or with an rollover
> (1-6,2-5,4-3)?
>

As far as I understand it, pretty much all MMJ sockets are wired the same
and the crossover between transmit and receive normally happens in the cable
so you need the rollover.

Even if this is not true in 100% of cases, it does appear to be true at least
in the case of connecting terminals to hosts.


Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 05:13:25 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:13:25 +0200
Subject: MMJ Cabling between VAX4000/300 and VT420
In-Reply-To: <01PLUFPS3XFQ0004E1@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01PLUFPS3XFQ0004E1@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <20150511101325.GA63366@beast.freibergnet.de>

Peter Coghlan wrote:

> >
> > I have to make a console cable for the VAX4000/300 and an VT420 Terminal.
> > How are the pins to be connected? One to One or with an rollover
> > (1-6,2-5,4-3)?
> >
> 
> As far as I understand it, pretty much all MMJ sockets are wired the same
> and the crossover between transmit and receive normally happens in the cable
> so you need the rollover.
> 
> Even if this is not true in 100% of cases, it does appear to be true at least
> in the case of connecting terminals to hosts.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

Thanks Peter,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May 11 06:57:00 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 07:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HP-1000 and PDP computer parts available
Message-ID: <20150511115700.90FE018C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: HP Friedrichs

    > I have .. a couple of PDP cards. 
    > Please see my web site here for a complete list of parts:

Here's the URL:

  http://www.hpfriedrichs.com/hpfparts/hpfparts.htm

About the DEC cards: the M8043 is a DLV11-J (a four-port serial card), and
the M8059 is an MSV11-L (up to 256KB memory card - but I'm trying to get that
one).

	Noel

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 08:18:02 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 08:18:02 -0500
Subject: oddball (XT PC-era?) keyboard - "dejag" etc controls
In-Reply-To: <554C1A43.7090803@bitsavers.org>
References: <554A9B68.5010808@gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23AF_u6VxHWK-AyqK4tU_iKjFxv4N7juRvrWk974A311A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554B5084.4080000@gmail.com> <554B8C2D.3010509@pico-systems.com>
 <554C1302.2040508@gmail.com> <554C1A43.7090803@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5550AC0A.3070009@gmail.com>

On 05/07/2015 09:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 5/7/15 6:36 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> On 05/07/2015 11:00 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> I gave my Jupiter 7 away to "Richard" through this list in 2012.  if he
>>> still has it, maybe he could take pictures so you could compare what you've
>>> got.  Or, post a picture, and I'll see if it looks like a Jupiter.
>>
>> Jon (& Al),
>>
>> Quick photo of it here:
>>
>> http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/keyboard_small.jpg
>>
>> ... definitely not as interesting as the Jupiter keyboard, whatever it is
>> - but would love to know what 'dejag' and 'vern' mean, and what its
>> possible purpose was. I popped the case open and the
>> internals are unremarkable - just an 8048 and misc support TTL. Most
>> recent IC dates were 38 of 1983.
>>
>
> I was mistaken, it is an AED keyboard for the "Colorware" generation of AED
> 767
>
> Dejag enables antialiasing of vectors. It's a kludge that steals portions
> of the 256 entry color lookup table
> Vern is Vernier, simulation of the joystick with cursor keys, from memory.
> It's a Keytronic serial kb.

Thanks, Al!  Given how often keyboards seem to get lost while the rest of 
the hardware survives, it's here if anyone ever needs it.

cheers

Jules


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon May 11 08:18:21 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 15:18:21 +0200
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
 <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <5550AC1D.5060206@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-11 04:19, Zane Healy wrote:
>
> On May 10, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On May 10, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/10/2015 03:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>>>> On May 10, 2015, at 1:45 PM, "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to post images of these diskettes, but I don't know the status of Oregon Software and the IP situation.
>>>> I should know, but can't remember, was Oregon Software a project out of OMSI?  I know OMSI did PDP-11 software development at one point.
>>> Yes, I'm sure these are the same company.
>>
>> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.
>>
>> 	paul
>
> That's still what it stands for, and they're still around.

They are? We should talk to them about getting the OMSI Pascal released 
then. There are things I'd like to improve in there... :-)

	Johnny


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 08:19:32 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 06:19:32 -0700
Subject: MMJ Cabling between VAX4000/300 and VT420
In-Reply-To: <20150511073621.GC36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511073621.GC36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+oGSkFz+i1mwmvJd6nYOiH3NgSLf4r_JUj6_QmT=P72Q@mail.gmail.com>

On May 11, 2015 12:36 AM, "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I have to make a console cable for the VAX4000/300 and an VT420 Terminal.
> How are the pins to be connected? One to One or with an rollover
> (1-6,2-5,4-3)?
>

Here's a reference I find helpful:
http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 08:40:12 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 08:40:12 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
Message-ID: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>


I really couldn't think how best to word the subject.  I pulled the CRT out 
of the HP 1331 X-Y display that I got the other day, then took all the old 
tape off, cleaned it up, and reassembled with new tape. It's no longer 
arcing around the CRT face, which is good.

However, there's a flexible plastic strip running between the CRT face and 
the chassis which carries three lines (it's a storage tube rather than a 
conventional CRT) and I'm still getting periodic arcing across these lines 
which of course upsets the display's operation. As far as I can tell, 
there's no 'sandwich' (and hence glue) involved - it's just a single 
plastic strip with conductive traces drawn onto it.

Does anyone have experience of these kinds of strips in an HV environment, 
and what (if anything) can be done for them when they start to fail? 
Possibilities seem to be:

1) Try some more cleaning,
2) Reworking with conductive paint (I wondered if one or more of the traces 
have gone high resistance in certain spots and this is encouraging the HV 
to arc between them 'upstream' of such areas),
3) Plastic itself has broken down in some way, requiring replacement; has 
anyone managed to make a replacement strip from scratch?

Although I've not tried the actual X/Y/Z inputs yet, basic 
write/store/erase functionality and beam movement via the front X/Y 
controls seems to be working so long as the arcing isn't occurring, and 
it'd be a fun little gadget to get working.

cheers

Jules

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 11 08:51:45 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:51:45 -0400
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23041072-B19F-411F-9064-6D701419657A@comcast.net>


> On May 11, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I really couldn't think how best to word the subject.  I pulled the CRT out of the HP 1331 X-Y display that I got the other day, then took all the old tape off, cleaned it up, and reassembled with new tape. It's no longer arcing around the CRT face, which is good.
> 
> However, there's a flexible plastic strip running between the CRT face and the chassis which carries three lines (it's a storage tube rather than a conventional CRT) and I'm still getting periodic arcing across these lines which of course upsets the display's operation. As far as I can tell, there's no 'sandwich' (and hence glue) involved - it's just a single plastic strip with conductive traces drawn onto it.
> 
> Does anyone have experience of these kinds of strips in an HV environment, and what (if anything) can be done for them when they start to fail? Possibilities seem to be:
> 
> 1) Try some more cleaning,
> 2) Reworking with conductive paint (I wondered if one or more of the traces have gone high resistance in certain spots and this is encouraging the HV to arc between them 'upstream' of such areas),
> 3) Plastic itself has broken down in some way, requiring replacement; has anyone managed to make a replacement strip from scratch?

It sounds like a very strange way to construct high voltage wiring.  The major rule for high voltage work is to avoid sharp edges.  A strip like you describe seems to violate that rule, big time.  It presumably worked when new, but it sounds marginal.

The most obvious fix is to replace it by a set of regular (round) wires.  Use fairly large wires if you can, not because of the current carrying capacity but for the roundness.  Along the same lines, when soldering, make sure the joint is smooth, no pointy protrusions on the solder.

	paul



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon May 11 09:43:26 2015
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 07:43:26 -0700
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <5550AC1D.5060206@update.uu.se>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
 <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>
 <5550AC1D.5060206@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <E2E36230-033C-4F8C-8A0B-031FA84E5749@aracnet.com>


On May 11, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

>>> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.
>>> 
>>> 	paul
>> 
>> That's still what it stands for, and they're still around.
> 
> They are? We should talk to them about getting the OMSI Pascal released then. There are things I'd like to improve in there... :-)
> 
> 	Johnny

Good luck trying to find anyone there that knows that they had anything to do with PDP-11's.  They moved at some point in the late 80's or early 90's, at which time they became far less interesting.  I never knew they did anything PDP-11 related until the late-90's, thanks in part to this list.

http://www.omsi.edu

What *I* would really love to find out more about is the graphical "Hunt the Wumpus" game that they had as an exhibit.

Zane



From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon May 11 09:45:48 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:45:48 -0500
Subject: Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive on craigslist
In-Reply-To: <BC1519AA1E9B5D4BBA482DEFE9BBAE7601A3B3923A@mail.fox.se>
References: <BC1519AA1E9B5D4BBA482DEFE9BBAE7601A3B3923A@mail.fox.se>
Message-ID: <mailman.19.1431355631.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 04:06 AM 8/8/2014, Tommie Mademark wrote:
>Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive in Tucson, AZ on Craigslist https://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/4591315871.html

Looks like it's still available?

http://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/5017009683.html

- John


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 10:23:12 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:23:12 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I've got a VAX4000/300 lately to save it from the dumpster.
> I've cleaned the machine an powered up. It taked several tries
> to get the PSU working stable, it shut off itself the first ~10 tries
> but works stable now.
> (Yes I know all about forming electrolytic caps but have my own point of
> view regarding supplying under voltage to switching psu's)
> 
> The machine is doing the Post until the final displayed letter "3" in
> the LED Display.
> 
> The machine is equipped with 64MB RAM, an KA670, and on the QBUS with the
> KZQSA DSSI and the TK70 Controllers and additional am CMD CQD200.
> Disks are 2x RF31 one RF71 and a TK70.
> I currently have no console device connected to the machine, must crimp a
> MMJ cable first..
> The Problem ist, that one of the RF31 Disks doesnt go to ready and the
> Fault LED lights up.
> 
> What can I do to further investigate the Drive fault?
> Are DSSI disks starting up themselves after applying Power and ACLO or
> has the controller to supply a spindle start command?
> re those disks known to have sticking heads sometimes?
> I would do some test on the drive w/o the machine since I don't have any
> test equipment in the room where the machine now is..
> 
> Any hints?
> 
> If anyone has a spare RF31 or RF71 (or similar) to sell or additional MS670
> memory for an hobbyist price, please mail me. I'm in germany, europe.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm


..have done some experiments with the disk. I've connected it to its front
paneel and an PC Powersupply, +12,+5 and GND.
After Power up the Fault, ithe Run and the write Protect LED are lit.
If I connect ACLO shortly to +5V, the Drive spins up, all 3 LEDs are going
off and then write protect reappears (Button pressed).
If I press the RUN/READY button I hear the drive step slowly for approx 15
seconds, then the red Fault LED reapears and the drive stops stepping.

If I start the Drive with the RUN/READY Button pressed, the drive starts
that slow stepping and then the Fault light goes on too. The drive keeps
spinning in both cases.


Is that behavior normal? I've never had todo with DSSI Drives before.

What could be the fault on this drive, does it just need a reformat?
Is there a sort of a mainenace programm to do this, hopefully standalone
from a Tape or ibetter from the KZQSA ROM so?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From chd at chdickman.com  Mon May 11 10:38:45 2015
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:38:45 -0400
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>

KZQSA is Qbus SCSI board with SII chip. It was used for CDROMs and such. No
DSSI here.

KFQSA is Qbus DSSI.

KA670 has built in DSSI controller, so the RF drives should be connected to
it.

DSSI drives are intelligent and can be accessed from VAX firmware utility.
I have done this with KFQSA, KA650, and RF71. Drive has internal operating
system with a command prompt, diagnostics, etc.

From dick at tonkaland.com  Mon May 11 11:01:52 2015
From: dick at tonkaland.com (dick at tonkaland.com)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:01:52 -0500
Subject: Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive on craigslist
In-Reply-To: <20150511152625.7AF692073C3F@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <BC1519AA1E9B5D4BBA482DEFE9BBAE7601A3B3923A@mail.fox.se>
 <20150511152625.7AF692073C3F@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <96850078bd16e1c448c91f0b0d75ad72.squirrel@tonkaland.com>


I HAVE A 6026 TAPE FOR THE NOVA 312 SYSTEM IF YOU ARE INTERESTED..
We are located in the Minneapolis area. 952-715-1366



> At 04:06 AM 8/8/2014, Tommie Mademark wrote:
>>Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive in Tucson, AZ on Craigslist
>> https://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/4591315871.html
>
> Looks like it's still available?
>
> http://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/5017009683.html
>
> - John
>
>



From dick at tonkaland.com  Mon May 11 11:01:52 2015
From: dick at tonkaland.com (dick at tonkaland.com)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:01:52 -0500
Subject: Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive on craigslist
In-Reply-To: <20150511152625.7AF692073C3F@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <BC1519AA1E9B5D4BBA482DEFE9BBAE7601A3B3923A@mail.fox.se>
 <20150511152625.7AF692073C3F@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <96850078bd16e1c448c91f0b0d75ad72.squirrel@tonkaland.com>


I HAVE A 6026 TAPE FOR THE NOVA 312 SYSTEM IF YOU ARE INTERESTED..
We are located in the Minneapolis area. 952-715-1366



> At 04:06 AM 8/8/2014, Tommie Mademark wrote:
>>Data General Nova 3/12 and 6026 Tape Drive in Tucson, AZ on Craigslist
>> https://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/4591315871.html
>
> Looks like it's still available?
>
> http://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/5017009683.html
>
> - John
>
>



From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Mon May 11 10:36:17 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:36:17 -0600
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> Sounds like a very nice PDP-12 setup. Does the Omnibus expansion allow for
> Omnibus memory as well?


Pretty sure that only IOT's type operations are translated by the posibus
to omnibus converter.  I believe this includes single cycle data break
devices.  And while Data break allows the I/O devices to talk to the CPU
memory system it is quite different from allowing the CPU to talk to
Omnibus memory.

I have read that there was a device that allowed an 8/I to be interfaced to
Omnibus memory and some machines were sold this way but I have never seen
one.

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 11 10:57:44 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:57:44 +0200
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 09:36:17AM -0600, Doug Ingraham wrote:
> I have read that there was a device that allowed an 8/I to be interfaced to
> Omnibus memory and some machines were sold this way but I have never seen
> one.
> 

I've sen one :) which is why I wondered. I've also heard of a 
straight-8 with omnibus memory.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 11 10:57:44 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:57:44 +0200
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 09:36:17AM -0600, Doug Ingraham wrote:
> I have read that there was a device that allowed an 8/I to be interfaced to
> Omnibus memory and some machines were sold this way but I have never seen
> one.
> 

I've sen one :) which is why I wondered. I've also heard of a 
straight-8 with omnibus memory.

/P

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 11:08:02 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:08:02 -0700
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
>
> DSSI drives are intelligent and can be accessed from VAX firmware utility.
> I have done this with KFQSA, KA650, and RF71. Drive has internal operating
> system with a command prompt, diagnostics, etc.

The RF drive built in utilities and diagnostics are described here:
RF Series Integrated Storage Element User Guide
Order Number: EK-RF72D-UG-008
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd3/disk/rf72dug8.pdf

Note however if the fault LED is on you might not be able to access
the drive at all to run the utilities and diagnostics:

Theory of Operation 2-33
If the controller portion of the ISE is not
functioning, the fault LED on the drive module and the
fault LED on the operator control panel turn on (Figure
2-19). Also, the ISE is not visible on the DSSI bus.
The failing component, in this case, is the drive
module itself, because it houses the controller
electronics.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 11:22:50 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:22:50 +0000
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

[...]

> However, there's a flexible plastic strip running between the CRT face and
> the chassis which carries three lines (it's a storage tube rather than a
> conventional CRT) and I'm still getting periodic arcing across these lines
> which of course upsets the display's operation. As far as I can tell,
> there's no 'sandwich' (and hence glue) involved - it's just a single
> plastic strip with conductive traces drawn onto it.

What does this strip connect to? Is it part of the CRT (or connected to the CRT), does
it connect to a coil around the CRT, or what? 

I am wondering if there is something else leaking or flashing over which is causing
excessive voltage to appear here.

-tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 11:38:11 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:38:11 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511163811.GD63366@beast.freibergnet.de>

Charles Dickman wrote:

> KZQSA is Qbus SCSI board with SII chip. It was used for CDROMs and such. No
> DSSI here.
> 
> KFQSA is Qbus DSSI.
> 
> KA670 has built in DSSI controller, so the RF drives should be connected to
> it.
> 
> DSSI drives are intelligent and can be accessed from VAX firmware utility.
> I have done this with KFQSA, KA650, and RF71. Drive has internal operating
> system with a command prompt, diagnostics, etc.

Ok.

Can that be run w/o VMS from the chevron prompt?

Regards,
Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 11:43:27 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:43:27 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>

Glen Slick wrote:

> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
> >
> > DSSI drives are intelligent and can be accessed from VAX firmware utility.
> > I have done this with KFQSA, KA650, and RF71. Drive has internal operating
> > system with a command prompt, diagnostics, etc.
> 
> The RF drive built in utilities and diagnostics are described here:
> RF Series Integrated Storage Element User Guide
> Order Number: EK-RF72D-UG-008
> http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd3/disk/rf72dug8.pdf
> 
> Note however if the fault LED is on you might not be able to access
> the drive at all to run the utilities and diagnostics:
> 
> Theory of Operation 2-33
> If the controller portion of the ISE is not
> functioning, the fault LED on the drive module and the
> fault LED on the operator control panel turn on (Figure
> 2-19). Also, the ISE is not visible on the DSSI bus.
> The failing component, in this case, is the drive
> module itself, because it houses the controller
> electronics.

Yes, I have this document open in xpdf...an I *think* that not the
controller, but something with the drive itself is bad.
I think the controller is ok since it clickers a time with the heads..

Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o opreating
system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next thing is
that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost nothing about
VMS.

Regards,
Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 11:55:10 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:55:10 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 11:22 AM, tony duell wrote:
> [...]
>
>> However, there's a flexible plastic strip running between the CRT face and
>> the chassis which carries three lines (it's a storage tube rather than a
>> conventional CRT) and I'm still getting periodic arcing across these lines
>> which of course upsets the display's operation. As far as I can tell,
>> there's no 'sandwich' (and hence glue) involved - it's just a single
>> plastic strip with conductive traces drawn onto it.
>
> What does this strip connect to? Is it part of the CRT (or connected to the CRT), does
> it connect to a coil around the CRT, or what?

The CRT end is soldered to three terminals which protrude from the front of 
the CRT - one is presumably the normal anode connection, one related to the 
storage mesh which I gather that such tubes have, and I'm not sure about 
the third (but possibly to do with erase functionality? I've not found an 
explanation of how that typically works)

> I am wondering if there is something else leaking or flashing over which is causing
> excessive voltage to appear here.

Hmm, yes it could be that the HV is just too high and so it arcs over 
periodically (and by "periodically", it actually spends more time arcing 
than not) - although there's no obvious sign (change in brightness etc.) in 
terms of the displayed image immediately prior to it flashing over.

cheers

Jules



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 11:54:30 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 09:54:30 -0700
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o opreating
> system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next thing is
> that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost nothing about
> VMS.
>

Maybe something like this. If the unit does not show up in the SHOW
DSSI list then there might not be much you can do with it.

>>> SHOW DSSI
>>> SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 0
Task Name? PARAMS
PARAMS> SHOW CONF
Last know unit failure xxxxx

From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon May 11 12:02:52 2015
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:02:52 +0000
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>

On May 11, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 05/11/2015 11:22 AM, tony duell wrote:
>> [...]
>> 
>>> However, there's a flexible plastic strip running between the CRT face and
>>> the chassis which carries three lines (it's a storage tube rather than a
>>> conventional CRT) and I'm still getting periodic arcing across these lines
>>> which of course upsets the display's operation. As far as I can tell,
>>> there's no 'sandwich' (and hence glue) involved - it's just a single
>>> plastic strip with conductive traces drawn onto it.
>> 
>> What does this strip connect to? Is it part of the CRT (or connected to the CRT), does
>> it connect to a coil around the CRT, or what?
> 
> The CRT end is soldered to three terminals which protrude from the front of the CRT - one is presumably the normal anode connection, one related to the storage mesh which I gather that such tubes have, and I'm not sure about the third (but possibly to do with erase functionality? I've not found an explanation of how that typically works)
> 
>> I am wondering if there is something else leaking or flashing over which is causing
>> excessive voltage to appear here.
> 
> Hmm, yes it could be that the HV is just too high and so it arcs over periodically (and by "periodically", it actually spends more time arcing than not) - although there's no obvious sign (change in brightness etc.) in terms of the displayed image immediately prior to it flashing over.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules

Jules,
	Not an expert at all, Tony?s advice is worth more than mine. That said, here are a couple of thoughts.
	
	Surface contamination in a geometry like that is a pretty good suspect. Any hydrocarbons (coughnicotinecough) that deposited on the plastic between the traces could lower the effective resistance a long way; worse, once the first arc takes place, it?s not unlikely it burns a carbon filament across the contaminant which is even lower resistance. That might be a reasonably hard thing to clean off and could be narrow enough it?s hard to spot. 

	Geometry is a big deal in this case; wherever the sharpest point or bend radius is is a good place to look. However, I would definitely clean the whole thing pretty carefully (from the CRT terminals all the way to whatever the connections are at the other end of the strip) as part of the debug process. 

	One other possibility is relative humidity; dry air insulates a lot better, so if there is a way to turn down the thermostat for a while and let the air conditioner dry out the room (and hence unit) under test, that could help. 

																		- Mark

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 12:07:00 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:00 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <23041072-B19F-411F-9064-6D701419657A@comcast.net>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <23041072-B19F-411F-9064-6D701419657A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5550E1B4.8080101@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 08:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> It sounds like a very strange way to construct high voltage wiring.  The
> major rule for high voltage work is to avoid sharp edges.  A strip like
> you describe seems to violate that rule, big time.  It presumably worked
> when new, but it sounds marginal.

I agree, it does seem strange! On the chassis side, there's a rather unique 
terminal clamp which holds the end of the flexible strip. One of the wires 
(I expect it's for the CRT anode) on the other side of that clamp is 
obviously HV cable, but the other two appear to be nothing special.

Sure, I can see a servicing benefit to being able to disconnect the CRT, 
but I don't get why HP couldn't have come up with a different connector 
arrangement and at least used regular wire for the "other two" connections 
between it and the CRT.

> The most obvious fix is to replace it by a set of regular (round) wires.
> Use fairly large wires if you can, not because of the current carrying
> capacity but for the roundness.  Along the same lines, when soldering,
> make sure the joint is smooth, no pointy protrusions on the solder.

Yes, that had crossed my mind - my only worry is soldering at the CRT end 
as I'm not sure if there's a danger of damaging something within the CRT.

thanks

J.

From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Mon May 11 12:17:41 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:17:41 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE> 
Message-ID: <20150511171741.3DA0F404E6@smtp.hushmail.com>

Pictures?? :-)



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 12:23:31 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:23:31 +0000
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550E1B4.8080101@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <23041072-B19F-411F-9064-6D701419657A@comcast.net>,
 <5550E1B4.8080101@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3175@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I agree, it does seem strange! On the chassis side, there's a rather unique
> terminal clamp which holds the end of the flexible strip. One of the wires
> (I expect it's for the CRT anode) on the other side of that clamp is
> obviously HV cable, but the other two appear to be nothing special.

That does sound strange. Given that the final anode voltage is going to be
10-20kV, I would not expect it to share a connector with anything.

[As a counterexample in the HP monitor for the HP9836C there are 2 HV-ish
connections between the flyback stage and the CRT base -- one is about 1KV
the other 5kV. These have their own in-line connectors, other signals
go over the backplane. But here the 2 HV wires do not share a connector with
each other, let alone with anything else).

> 
> Yes, that had crossed my mind - my only worry is soldering at the CRT end
> as I'm not sure if there's a danger of damaging something within the CRT.

The biggest worry is cracking the CRT glass either because the pin and glass do
not expand at the same rate over all temperatures (the metal and glass are chosen
so this is the case over normal temperature ranges for obvious reasons, but not
for soldering temperatures) or because you heat one bit of the glass and not others.
In general soldering to a pin close to a glass-metal seal is a no-no. Is there room to
put a pair of pliers on the pin (between the CRT and the joint) to act as  heat shunt?

Don't worry about the stuff inside the CRT. You will not find soft solder in an evacuated
object, it would 'boil off'. Internal connections are spot-welded. The whole lot will have
been heated to red heat or so (induction heated) to out-gas it when the thing was being
pumped down anyway.

-tony


thanks

J.

From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon May 11 12:27:12 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:27:12 -0500
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS
  Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1504290959590.4328@shell.lmi.net>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <006f01d0820f$4f6713a0$ee353ae0$@net>
 <BE777EBCB5B04EF7A698C2CED33A323D@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1504290959590.4328@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.21.1431365360.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 12:10 PM 4/29/2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>Not only make a will, but make sure that the right people will have it in a timely manner.  When my best friend died, his will wasn't found for a long time, by which time, a lot of stuff had been dumpstered, including his LJIIP, and even his Leicas!

I hope you consider making a Virtual Grumpy Ol' Fred.  Dump your
brain to web pages and videos uploaded to YouTube and you'll live forever.

Perhaps a method we can all avoid Leicas in the Dumpster is to put a 
price tag on everything before you go.  Even the simplest Dumpster-tossing 
cleanup person / relative understands a dollar sign. 

- John


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 12:41:16 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:41:16 +0000
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS  Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20150511172920.92C292073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <006f01d0820f$4f6713a0$ee353ae0$@net>
 <BE777EBCB5B04EF7A698C2CED33A323D@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1504290959590.4328@shell.lmi.net>,
 <20150511172920.92C292073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3197@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>
> Perhaps a method we can all avoid Leicas in the Dumpster is to put a
> price tag on everything before you go.  Even the simplest Dumpster-tossing
> cleanup person / relative understands a dollar sign.

I think that means we all need to own Leicas to start with. How many would make
me greedy?

My biggest worry is that my will will not be found and/or my next of kin will not 
get contacted. He isn't a relative of mine, just a very close friend. He is the 
beneficiary of my will and the exector, but if this is not realised he might not
get what he should. I am wondering if there is some way of ensuring he gets told
if anything should happen to me (not that I am planning anything like that, but...)

-tony

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 12:57:46 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:57:46 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 12:02 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote:
> Surface contamination in a
> geometry like that is a pretty good suspect. Any hydrocarbons
> (coughnicotinecough) that deposited on the plastic between the traces
> could lower the effective resistance a long way; worse, once the first
> arc takes place, it?s not unlikely it burns a carbon filament across the
> contaminant which is even lower resistance. That might be a reasonably
> hard thing to clean off and could be narrow enough it?s hard to spot.

Aha, well it turns out that it *was* a sandwich - traces between two layers 
of plastic. It just didn't look like it the other day when I had the tube 
out. :/

In the spot where I estimate the arcing to have been taking place there was 
a definite failure of the glue which held the sandwich together, so there 
was certainly the potential for contaminants to have got in there. I've 
completely separated the layers (the glue was that ineffective after 40+ 
years) and de-gunked everything.

Question is, once it's all thoroughly dry, what would be the most 
appropriate way of re-sealing everything? Would silicone sealant perhaps do 
the job (dispensing with the top layer of the sandwich entirely and just 
coating the bottom layer/traces) and stand up to the HV OK?  Or some form 
of glue?

cheers

Jules

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 13:01:07 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:01:07 +0000
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com>
 <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,<5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Question is, once it's all thoroughly dry, what would be the most
> appropriate way of re-sealing everything? Would silicone sealant perhaps do
> the job (dispensing with the top layer of the sandwich entirely and just
> coating the bottom layer/traces) and stand up to the HV OK?  Or some form
> of glue?

Firslty, some silicone sealants cure by eliminating ethanoic (acetic) acid (they smell
like vinegar) which is probably a very bad idea here. Secondly, HV finds a way
to leak if it possibly can ;-). I found by bitter practical experience that the plastic
used for electrical wall plates would not stand 30kV (I was trying to use a cut-down
blanking plate to stop a 30kV flashover, didn't do a darn thing!).

I would try to re-make the 'sandwich'. At one time you could get special HV
glues and 'anti corona dope'. With the demise of CRT-based devices I suspect
such things are going to be very hard to find now, but you can try.

Do you have any idea as to the voltage involved?

-tony

From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon May 11 13:01:20 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 13:01:20 -0500
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3197@EXMBX15.thus.corp
 >
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <006f01d0820f$4f6713a0$ee353ae0$@net>
 <BE777EBCB5B04EF7A698C2CED33A323D@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1504290959590.4328@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150511172920.92C292073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3197@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <mailman.22.1431367326.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 12:41 PM 5/11/2015, tony duell wrote:
>I think that means we all need to own Leicas to start with. How many would make me greedy? 

Value is always in the eye of the beholder, and price is always
and only set between buyer and seller.

If you're hoarding stuff that has no value - then you're just a hoarder.

If you're concerned that valuable stuff might be tossed after your
death, and sad that no one will inherit the valuable stuff, then
today you should be able to document and mark its value.

One might say it would be crazy to tag everything with a price...
but is that less crazy than collecting it all in the first place?

- John


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 13:05:28 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:05:28 +0000
Subject: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20150511180206.915752073C3B@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <t6y96q9q0796lep6c8kfrrj7.1429093566755@email.android.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1504151456140.13664@linuxserv.home>
 <6FCB8C972AF04779AA9DAC864E95F566@310e2>
 <006f01d0820f$4f6713a0$ee353ae0$@net>
 <BE777EBCB5B04EF7A698C2CED33A323D@310e2>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1504290959590.4328@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150511172920.92C292073C38@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3197@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <20150511180206.915752073C3B@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31BE@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Value is always in the eye of the beholder, and price is always
> and only set between buyer and seller.
> 
> If you're hoarding stuff that has no value - then you're just a hoarder.

Those 2 statements partially contradict each other IMHO. Something may 
not have much financial value, it does not mean that my heir does not 
want to inherit it. 

> If you're concerned that valuable stuff might be tossed after your
> death, and sad that no one will inherit the valuable stuff, then
> today you should be able to document and mark its value.

Provided my next-of-kin gets to hear about it in time there is no problem,
in that he will know what is worth saving. So my problem is to ensure that
he is notified in the event of my death, and I am wondering how to do this.

-tony

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 13:20:36 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 13:20:36 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,
 <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 01:01 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>> Question is, once it's all thoroughly dry, what would be the most
>> appropriate way of re-sealing everything? Would silicone sealant perhaps do
>> the job (dispensing with the top layer of the sandwich entirely and just
>> coating the bottom layer/traces) and stand up to the HV OK?  Or some form
>> of glue?
>
> Firslty, some silicone sealants cure by eliminating ethanoic (acetic) acid (they smell
> like vinegar) which is probably a very bad idea here.

Aha, glad you mentioned that - I know that the stuff that I have 
immediately to hand has a vinegar-like smell.

> Secondly, HV finds a way to leak if it possibly can ;-)

Indeed!

> I would try to re-make the 'sandwich'.

Yes, I'd certainly like to look at that route first - mainly because I 
think soldering new wires might be problematic. In response to your other 
message, there's no way to attach any kind of heat shunt; the connections 
at the CRT side protrude maybe 2mm at most. Perhaps heating the entire CRT 
in a oven would be helpful if it comes to it.

> Do you have any idea as to the voltage involved?

No, but it's a small screen - 5" diagonal or so. I did find a service 
manual for a 1330 display, which appears to be a very similar animal but 
without the storage functionality, and that operates at ~ 3kV.

cheers

J.


From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Mon May 11 13:33:08 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:33:08 +0000
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <20150509110724.32D1418C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150509110724.32D1418C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E22353@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2015 4:07 AM

> On 05/08/2015 03:50 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> We only know of 3 complete KA10s in existence

> Where, if I may ask, just out of curiousity?

Sweden and Mountain View, CA.

"Complete KA-10" refers only to the CPUs, by the way.  If we extend the
description to include memory and peripheral interfaces, the number drops
to 2.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 13:37:19 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 20:37:19 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>

Glen Slick wrote:

> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> >
> > Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o opreating
> > system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next thing is
> > that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost nothing about
> > VMS.
> >
> 
> Maybe something like this. If the unit does not show up in the SHOW
> DSSI list then there might not be much you can do with it.
> 
> >>> SHOW DSSI
> >>> SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 0
> Task Name? PARAMS
> PARAMS> SHOW CONF
> Last know unit failure xxxxx

Ok, I'll try that...in the meantime I've connected a terminal and the unit
is shoing up on the DSSI bus.
I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal multiplexer
like an DHV11...


Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 13:57:04 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:57:04 -0700
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK4UL=8QR++q-KOTqBYDbz7Ef2ZpjwfMQqgdohdW1e+eA@mail.gmail.com>

On May 11, 2015 11:37 AM, "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
> something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal multiplexer
> like an DHV11...
>

Most likely either an M3118 CXA16 or an M3119 CXY08.

Those are pretty common in BA213/BA215 and BA430/BA440/BA441 chassis VAX
systems.

From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org  Mon May 11 14:13:07 2015
From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 19:13:07 +0000
Subject: 360/50 microcode listing
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E22353@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
References: <20150509110724.32D1418C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E22353@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9E22516@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

From: Rich Alderson
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 11:33 AM

> From: Noel Chiappa
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2015 4:07 AM

>> On 05/08/2015 03:50 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

>>> We only know of 3 complete KA10s in existence

>> Where, if I may ask, just out of curiousity?

> Sweden and Mountain View, CA.

> "Complete KA-10" refers only to the CPUs, by the way.  If we extend the
> description to include memory and peripheral interfaces, the number drops
> to 2.

I've been reminded in private e-mail that CHM does *not* have a complete
KA-10, only the operator console bay, so the number of complete CPUs =
the number of complete systems, that is, 2.

                                                                Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon May 11 14:16:08 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 15:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Minor side point Re: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com>
 <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <201505111916.PAA18132@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

Okay, this is pretty close to a nitpick, but the chemist in me refuses
to let me let it pass.

> 	Surface contamination in a geometry like that is a pretty good suspect$

Nicotine is not actually a hydrocarbon; the molecule has two nitrogens.

Also, most of the gunk deposited on things subjected to tobacco smoke
is not nicotine; it's assorted incomplete-combustion products.

This is not to say that smoke deposits couldn't cause the symptom
described; I would expect they could.  Just that it's probably not
nicotine that's responsible - and that nicotine isn't a hydrocarbon.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 14:44:54 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:44:54 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwK4UL=8QR++q-KOTqBYDbz7Ef2ZpjwfMQqgdohdW1e+eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwK4UL=8QR++q-KOTqBYDbz7Ef2ZpjwfMQqgdohdW1e+eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150511194454.GA2563@beast.freibergnet.de>

Glen Slick wrote:

> On May 11, 2015 11:37 AM, "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> >
> > I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
> > something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal multiplexer
> > like an DHV11...
> >
> 
> Most likely either an M3118 CXA16 or an M3119 CXY08.
> 
> Those are pretty common in BA213/BA215 and BA430/BA440/BA441 chassis VAX
> systems.

I'll look next time what exactly that is. Wondered about the cables in a
box, one sife SCSI50 and then a bunch of RS232 on the other side, I'm sure
they will fit there..

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 14:46:58 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:46:58 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Glen Slick wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o opreating
> > > system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next thing is
> > > that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost nothing about
> > > VMS.
> > >
> > 
> > Maybe something like this. If the unit does not show up in the SHOW
> > DSSI list then there might not be much you can do with it.
> > 
> > >>> SHOW DSSI
> > >>> SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 0
> > Task Name? PARAMS
> > PARAMS> SHOW CONF
> > Last know unit failure xxxxx
> 
> Ok, I'll try that...in the meantime I've connected a terminal and the unit
> is shoing up on the DSSI bus.
> I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
> something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal multiplexer
> like an DHV11...
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 


... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).

Now I have to find out waht this means..

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 15:09:20 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 15:09:20 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,
 <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55510C70.9000907@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 01:20 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> I would try to re-make the 'sandwich'.
>
> Yes, I'd certainly like to look at that route first

Hmm, while regular electrical tape is only rated for 600V, Scotch-brand 
"splice tape" is rated for close to 22kV. Of course that's *through the 
tape* though, so although it would insulate the conductors from the outside 
world, it's not clear how effective it would be at insulating the two 
conductors that are only a couple of mm apart; the tape doesn't really play 
a part in that scenario, only the glue.

What I might be able to do though is separate two of the conductors from 
*both* sides of the sandwich (at least along 99% of their length, can't do 
much about the ends), then construct something like the following:


------------------  < tape
   ~~~               < conductor
------------------  < tape
         ~~~         < conductor
------------------  < tape
              ~~~    < conductor
==================  < lower 'bread' portion of sandwich

... that would give me a nice insulating barrier between each conductor. I 
think I can get that splice tape in town, so maybe I need to pick some up 
to at least assess how easy it would be to work with.

cheers

Jules


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 11 15:17:46 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 20:17:46 +0000
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <55510C70.9000907@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,
 <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>,<55510C70.9000907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3275@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Hmm, while regular electrical tape is only rated for 600V, Scotch-brand
> "splice tape" is rated for close to 22kV. Of course that's *through the
> tape* though, so although it would insulate the conductors from the outside
> world, it's not clear how effective it would be at insulating the two
> conductors that are only a couple of mm apart; the tape doesn't really play
> a part in that scenario, only the glue.

Given that flashovers don't seem to do any damage, I would be inclinded to just 
try the tape first and see if it will stand up to the voltage. If it is only 3kV, I suspect
it will. I would not start cutting the flexiprint unless you have to.

-tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 11 15:28:30 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 22:28:30 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > Glen Slick wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o opreating
> > > > system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next thing is
> > > > that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost nothing about
> > > > VMS.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Maybe something like this. If the unit does not show up in the SHOW
> > > DSSI list then there might not be much you can do with it.
> > > 
> > > >>> SHOW DSSI
> > > >>> SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 0
> > > Task Name? PARAMS
> > > PARAMS> SHOW CONF
> > > Last know unit failure xxxxx
> > 
> > Ok, I'll try that...in the meantime I've connected a terminal and the unit
> > is shoing up on the DSSI bus.
> > I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
> > something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal multiplexer
> > like an DHV11...
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Holm
> > 
> 
> 
> ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
> 
> Now I have to find out waht this means..
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm


...there is a dutch site that means that the head assembly ist stuck..

I'll look into that drive tomorrow, maybe I can fix this.
(not the first drive, but I'm unhappy that I have to open it).

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May 11 16:16:13 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 22:16:13 +0100
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 May 2015 at 21:28, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:

> Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
> > Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >
> > > Glen Slick wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Can I check what's wron just with the console chevron prompt w/o
> opreating
> > > > > system?#The Drive has the ID 0 so I think VMS resides there, next
> thing is
> > > > > that for sure the licenses run out for sure and I know almost
> nothing about
> > > > > VMS.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe something like this. If the unit does not show up in the SHOW
> > > > DSSI list then there might not be much you can do with it.
> > > >
> > > > >>> SHOW DSSI
> > > > >>> SET HOST/DUP/DSSI 0
> > > > Task Name? PARAMS
> > > > PARAMS> SHOW CONF
> > > > Last know unit failure xxxxx
> > >
> > > Ok, I'll try that...in the meantime I've connected a terminal and the
> unit
> > > is shoing up on the DSSI bus.
> > > I'm also now know what this other card is from them I tought it where
> > > something like an SCSI Controller, that is a kind of terminal
> multiplexer
> > > like an DHV11...
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Holm
> > >
> >
> >
> > ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
> >
> > Now I have to find out waht this means..
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Holm
>
>
> ...there is a dutch site that means that the head assembly ist stuck..
>
> I'll look into that drive tomorrow, maybe I can fix this.
> (not the first drive, but I'm unhappy that I have to open it).
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>
>
> --
>       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>
>
As it is Dutch I may not be able to read it, but if you could post the link
it might still  be helpful.

Thanks

Rob

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May 11 16:32:06 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:32:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
Message-ID: <20150511213206.E9D1F18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jules Richardson

    > ... "splice tape" is rated for close to 22kV. 
    > Of course that's *through the tape* though, so although it would
    > insulate the conductors from the outside world, it's not clear how
    > effective it would be at insulating the two conductors that are only a
    > couple of mm apart; the tape doesn't really play a part in that
    > scenario, only the glue.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why not apply a layer of tape
immediately on top of the conductors - since a thickness of .X of a mm
(through) will insulate 22KV, Y mm (across - where Y is the distance between
the conductors) definitely ought to do it.

Although there is the glue that holds it down - I wasn't sure if that was the
glue you were referring to, or if you meant some other glue - that might not
be as insulating (or maybe it is, just don't know).

But, anyway, if the glue might be an issue, you'd have to apply the tape
non-glue side down (and stick something like regular electrical tape to it,
glue-glue, to nullify its glue on the now-up-facing side - unless you want to
use that to join the two layers of the original together). As to how to get it
to adhere: if you can figure out what the insulating glue was that they used
originally, or some modern facsimile thereof, you could use that.

	Noel

From slandon110 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 18:17:21 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 19:17:21 -0400
Subject: FS: IBM 42U Network Rack & 8 2 U Rackmount cases- Pick up in Farwell
 Michigan
Message-ID: <55513881.70400@gmail.com>

Bought this for TimmyNet but its too big for what we need

Its an IBM 42U Rack,  Needs cage nuts

Comes with 8 2 U Rackmount cases for a whole $100

Come get it out of my basement

Located in Farwell Michigan

From chrise at pobox.com  Mon May 11 18:18:10 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:18:10 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <20150511213206.E9D1F18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150511213206.E9D1F18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150511231810.GO2522@n0jcf.net>

On Monday (05/11/2015 at 05:32PM -0400), Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Jules Richardson
> 
>     > ... "splice tape" is rated for close to 22kV. 
>     > Of course that's *through the tape* though, so although it would
>     > insulate the conductors from the outside world, it's not clear how
>     > effective it would be at insulating the two conductors that are only a
>     > couple of mm apart; the tape doesn't really play a part in that
>     > scenario, only the glue.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but why not apply a layer of tape
> immediately on top of the conductors - since a thickness of .X of a mm
> (through) will insulate 22KV, Y mm (across - where Y is the distance between
> the conductors) definitely ought to do it.
> 
> Although there is the glue that holds it down - I wasn't sure if that was the
> glue you were referring to, or if you meant some other glue - that might not
> be as insulating (or maybe it is, just don't know).
> 
> But, anyway, if the glue might be an issue, you'd have to apply the tape
> non-glue side down (and stick something like regular electrical tape to it,
> glue-glue, to nullify its glue on the now-up-facing side - unless you want to
> use that to join the two layers of the original together). As to how to get it
> to adhere: if you can figure out what the insulating glue was that they used
> originally, or some modern facsimile thereof, you could use that.

You could also conformal coat it with a spray on HV coating such as,

http://www.all-spec.com/products/CTUFD-12.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwpsGqBRCioKet--bp_QcSJADCtbsb5rmNYHWnzbnkkNcUB_ZsZhxqgXIqeEky9iLLjm7-rxoCd03w_wcB

-- 
Chris Elmquist

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 18:40:27 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:40:27 -0700
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+FKsTyhc2XD9uQuqAM4US7HhFQkmbhAYkNUXEWOuRv-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
>
> Now I have to find out what this means..
>

There is supposed to be an EK-RF72D-SV RF31/RF72 Service Guide manual
which would list error codes. I haven't found any copies of that
online anywhere.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 11 18:53:31 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 16:53:31 -0700
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150511194454.GA2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwK4UL=8QR++q-KOTqBYDbz7Ef2ZpjwfMQqgdohdW1e+eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511194454.GA2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK8B_Z=eOpjVvP4oiHCk-qgXy+idgOcUNMRTjkT-fh_xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> I'll look next time what exactly that is. Wondered about the cables in a
> box, one sife SCSI50 and then a bunch of RS232 on the other side, I'm sure
> they will fit there..

A BC19N cable has a 50-pin AMP connector on one end and breaks out to
4 DB25 male connectors on the other end. You would attach 2 of those
cables to an 8 port M3119 CXY08.

The CXY08 can operate in either DHV11 or DHU11 modes. Essentially the
same thing as an M3107 DHQ11.

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 18:58:08 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:58:08 -0500
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3275@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,
 <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>, <55510C70.9000907@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3275@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55514210.70808@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2015 03:17 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>> Hmm, while regular electrical tape is only rated for 600V, Scotch-brand
>> "splice tape" is rated for close to 22kV. Of course that's *through the
>> tape* though, so although it would insulate the conductors from the outside
>> world, it's not clear how effective it would be at insulating the two
>> conductors that are only a couple of mm apart; the tape doesn't really play
>> a part in that scenario, only the glue.
>
> Given that flashovers don't seem to do any damage, I would be inclinded to just
> try the tape first and see if it will stand up to the voltage. If it is only 3kV, I suspect
> it will. I would not start cutting the flexiprint unless you have to.

Well, the tape proved to be a no-go; it was still tracking along the glue. 
So, I bit the bullet and removed the flexible strip, replacing the three 
conductors with wires.

Thankfully the CRT didn't break, and it's cured all the arcing problems. 
However, whatever the connection point closest to the CRT front is for, 
there's essentially nothing to solder to; unlike the other two connections, 
it only protrudes from the glass by a fraction of a mm.

I'm really not happy with it as a "fix" because I doubt the joint has any 
mechanical strength worth speaking about, and it's likely only the tape 
which I then wrapped around everything which is holding things together 
(and of course over time the tape may stretch and the connection may fail).

I suppose that at least for the moment it'll do, and allow me to test out 
the XYZ inputs and perhaps think of a way of repairing the flexible strip 
(of course that solder problem will remain, but it would be much easier for 
tape to hold a big flat strip in place than it is for three round wires)

cheers

Jules


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 11 19:29:02 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:29:02 -0700
Subject: HV tracking across flexible PCB strips
In-Reply-To: <55514210.70808@gmail.com>
References: <5550B13C.2080306@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3135@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550DEEE.70803@gmail.com> <5155CB9E-35E6-4C37-8955-32CBFEE89548@swri.edu>,
 <5550ED9A.5010309@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C31AA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <5550F2F4.8040600@gmail.com>, <55510C70.9000907@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3275@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55514210.70808@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5551494E.7030003@sydex.com>

On 05/11/2015 04:58 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:

> I'm really not happy with it as a "fix" because I doubt the joint has
> any mechanical strength worth speaking about, and it's likely only the
> tape which I then wrapped around everything which is holding things
> together (and of course over time the tape may stretch and the
> connection may fail).

There is a variety of electrically conductive glues, either doped with 
silver or graphite.  Perhaps that might do the trick for you.

www.amazon.com/Resist-Electrically-Conductive-Adhesive-AA-DUCT/dp/B00EPYD1YO

--Chuck



From slandon110 at gmail.com  Mon May 11 19:54:51 2015
From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 20:54:51 -0400
Subject: FREE: Amiga 1084S Monitor
Message-ID: <55514F5B.9030104@gmail.com>

FREE Commodore Amiga 1084S Monitor.  You just pay shipping.  Needs some 
soldering on the video connector and the power switch. Otherwise it 
works fine

Located in Farwell Michigan.

You can pick it up or pay shipping

Steve

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon May 11 22:56:22 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:56:22 -0600
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
 <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC
> machines could punch cards.

Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.

PDP-8: CP08
PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
PDP-15: CP15
(also earlier 18-bit machines, and maybe PDP-5, but I don't have
definitive info on option numbers at hand)

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Mon May 11 23:53:20 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:53:20 -0700
Subject: HP-1000 and PDP computer parts available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1431363600.53666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1431363600.53666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <995C160581974BF5A66BB5E729723DEF@workshop>

Perfect timing! My new old HP 1000 is coming in a few days and it's missing
some of the cards you have. I'll take your HP 1000 cards if we can agree on
price. I will contact you off-line.
Marc

>From: HP Friedrichs <hpfparts at yahoo.com>
>Subject: HP-1000 and PDP computer parts available
>I have a sizable collection of HP-1000 circuit cards, as well as a couple
>of PDP cards. 
>They take up a lot of space in my workshop, so I'd like to find a home for
>them.
>Please see my web site here for a complete list of parts:
>The H.P. Friedrichs (AC7ZL) Homepage
>Thanks and 73,PeteAC7ZL
> View on www.hpfriedrichs.com 





From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 00:14:41 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 07:14:41 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jarratt RMA wrote:

[..]
> > >
> > >
> > > ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
> > >
> > > Now I have to find out waht this means..
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Holm
> >
> >
> > ...there is a dutch site that means that the head assembly ist stuck..
> >
> > I'll look into that drive tomorrow, maybe I can fix this.
> > (not the first drive, but I'm unhappy that I have to open it).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Holm
> >
> >
> > --
> >       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >
> >
> As it is Dutch I may not be able to read it, but if you could post the link
> it might still  be helpful.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob


:-)

http://www.josvandijken.nl/computer_dec_microvax_3400.php

The first "Log" window shows what is the problem (A508) and the text
after that window says that the disk got some pedagogic kick and after that
it decided to work again..

Can't read dutch, but it has similarities to german. Google translates
it to something unreadable..

I'll try that pedagogic kick first..

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue May 12 02:41:06 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 01:41:06 -0600
Subject: Running a Z8-02 MPD on a breadboard
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSPVW2KrjByFzNgBhDF+VFFGdc_9OcXYvAkdGz8Rnygug@mail.gmail.com>

Some time back I acquired a Zilog Z8-02 MPD. This is the bond-out
version of the Z8 microcontroller. The normal Z8 contained 2K of
internal masked ROM and was packaged in a 40-pin DIP. The Z8-02 had no
masked ROM (or possibly the masked ROM was disabled), and the address
and data buses for the internal ROM, along with a few clock and
control signals, were brought out to the extra 24 pins of a 64-contact
ceramic leadless quad-in-line package (QUIP). Typically for emulation
it would be used with a 2716 EPROM, or 2KB of RAM with address and
data multiplexers for a fancy emulator.

The ceramic leadless QUIP package was used for bondouts from Intel and
Zilog, and later, for the Intel iAPX 432 components. Later it was
replaced with the square JEDEC ceramic leadless package. Note that the
ceramic leadless QUIP is unrelated to the more common leaded QUIP
packages used by NEC, Rockwell, and Motorola.

Unlike many modern leadless packages (DFN, QFN, BGA), the ceramic
leadless QUIP is intended for use only in a socket, which was made by
3M. Today the sockets are even harder to find than the chips that
require them.

I designed a simple QUIP adapter for use with solderless breadboards,
and wired up a Z8-02 MPD along with a 28C16 EEPROM for the program
memory, a 62256 static RAM, address latch, and decoder. I programmed a
copy of the Z8671 Basic/Debug interpreter into the EEPROM. To my
amazement, it worked the first time.

Photos:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157652653732622

The last "photo" is a screen shot of Kermit talking to it. I've
entered an inefficient program to search for primes, and the screen
shot shows it being LISTed, RUN, and then stopped after a few primes
have been found.

Not shown, I printed the value of some of the interpreter's globals,
to verify that the static RAM was recognized properly. (The
interpreter can actually provide minimal functionality with no
external memory!)

While Zilog only claimed it to be a subset of Dartmouth BASIC, the
interpreter does not include the FOR statement, so IMNSHO it barely
even qualifies to be considered a "tiny BASIC".

The competing National Semiconductor INS8073 had 2.5K of ROM, and
Intel 8052AH-BASIC had 8K, so they supported more features of BASIC.

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 03:13:45 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:13:45 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Jarratt RMA wrote:
> 
> [..]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
> > > >
> > > > Now I have to find out waht this means..
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Holm
> > >
> > >
> > > ...there is a dutch site that means that the head assembly ist stuck..
> > >
> > > I'll look into that drive tomorrow, maybe I can fix this.
> > > (not the first drive, but I'm unhappy that I have to open it).
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Holm
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> > >      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> > >   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> > >
> > >
> > As it is Dutch I may not be able to read it, but if you could post the link
> > it might still  be helpful.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Rob
> 
> 
> :-)
> 
> http://www.josvandijken.nl/computer_dec_microvax_3400.php
> 
> The first "Log" window shows what is the problem (A508) and the text
> after that window says that the disk got some pedagogic kick and after that
> it decided to work again..
> 
> Can't read dutch, but it has similarities to german. Google translates
> it to something unreadable..
> 
> I'll try that pedagogic kick first..
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm


Yes guys, it's true.
I've successfully "repaired" the drive with an careful hit from a
rubber-hammer! It seems that this way a stick headassemble gets free'd up
again.
The drive is online now, no more Fault LED.
I'm currently let the drive exerciser run on it.

Kind Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 04:55:25 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:55:25 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > Jarratt RMA wrote:
> > 
> > [..]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ... unit is inoperative, error code A508(x).
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I have to find out waht this means..
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Holm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ...there is a dutch site that means that the head assembly ist stuck..
> > > >
> > > > I'll look into that drive tomorrow, maybe I can fix this.
> > > > (not the first drive, but I'm unhappy that I have to open it).
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Holm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> > > >      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> > > >   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> > > >
> > > >
> > > As it is Dutch I may not be able to read it, but if you could post the link
> > > it might still  be helpful.
> > > 
> > > Thanks
> > > 
> > > Rob
> > 
> > 
> > :-)
> > 
> > http://www.josvandijken.nl/computer_dec_microvax_3400.php
> > 
> > The first "Log" window shows what is the problem (A508) and the text
> > after that window says that the disk got some pedagogic kick and after that
> > it decided to work again..
> > 
> > Can't read dutch, but it has similarities to german. Google translates
> > it to something unreadable..
> > 
> > I'll try that pedagogic kick first..
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Holm
> 
> 
> Yes guys, it's true.
> I've successfully "repaired" the drive with an careful hit from a
> rubber-hammer! It seems that this way a stick headassemble gets free'd up
> again.
> The drive is online now, no more Fault LED.
> I'm currently let the drive exerciser run on it.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Holm
> 

Ok, the disk passed the tests with ok.

I've tried to boot something from DIA0 DIA1 and DIA2..nosurchfile so the
disks seems to be empty.

Now I think about a reformat of the drives, but there is no such procedure.
There is an erase program that should rewrite eachs sector with several
patterns. I'll think that it will do the job.
Does an format programm exists "in the field"  or is something like thisi
proprietary to DEC?

Regards,

Holm

..going to fix the psu now (H7874-00)

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May 12 07:04:00 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:04:00 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-12 11:55, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Ok, the disk passed the tests with ok.

Excellent.

> I've tried to boot something from DIA0 DIA1 and DIA2..nosurchfile so the
> disks seems to be empty.

Oh Well...

> Now I think about a reformat of the drives, but there is no such procedure.
> There is an erase program that should rewrite eachs sector with several
> patterns. I'll think that it will do the job.
> Does an format programm exists "in the field"  or is something like thisi
> proprietary to DEC?

Why would you want to reformat the drives?
That said, I would expect such a utility to exist in the firmware of the 
drive.
But normally, since these drives remap bad sectors automatically, you 
should normally just go on using them, and everything is ok.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May 12 07:07:29 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:07:29 +0200
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5551ED01.9040103@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-12 05:56, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC
>> machines could punch cards.
>
> Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
> options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
>
> PDP-8: CP08
> PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
> PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
> PDP-15: CP15
> (also earlier 18-bit machines, and maybe PDP-5, but I don't have
> definitive info on option numbers at hand)

Yes, and at least the PDP-8 and PDP-11 are read only.
The interesting question is if any could punch. Maybe the PDP-10 could, 
but I haven't heard of any other DEC machines that could.

	Johnny


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 07:33:00 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:33:00 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
References: <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de> <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-05-12 11:55, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >Ok, the disk passed the tests with ok.
> 
> Excellent.
> 
> >I've tried to boot something from DIA0 DIA1 and DIA2..nosurchfile so the
> >disks seems to be empty.
> 
> Oh Well...
> 
> >Now I think about a reformat of the drives, but there is no such procedure.
> >There is an erase program that should rewrite eachs sector with several
> >patterns. I'll think that it will do the job.
> >Does an format programm exists "in the field"  or is something like thisi
> >proprietary to DEC?
> 
> Why would you want to reformat the drives?
> That said, I would expect such a utility to exist in the firmware of the 
> drive.
> But normally, since these drives remap bad sectors automatically, you 
> should normally just go on using them, and everything is ok.
> 
> 	Johnny

The exerciser showed some correctable soft errors, wich is pretty much
normal I think. Reformating the drive should simply "freshen up" the data
tracks but erase should do the same in this regard.
Since the distks aren't containing anything interresting, it would be the
right time now to do a reformat.
I think the head assembly has an voice coil engine anyways, so servo tracks
are needed to do the positioning. It is clear that they aren't affected from
a reformat...


I've changed some Nippon Chemicon electrolytics from the PSU now. All
330?F 25V Caps are bad, an 1000?F 25V too, where other Caps from the same
company are still ok. I've changed the 330? Caps against some good Rubycons
470? 25V from which I have "masses".
The construktor of that H7874 Supply is an dump asshole, no one should ever
construct switching PSU's in a way that it makes it impossible to desolder
broken electrolytic Caps! One module with 2 x 330?F Caps is build this way!
I had to pull of that bad caps, ..brown residues from the electrolyte below
them on the pcb. Cleaned the PCB with alcohol and soldered the new caps from
above, briged them with an 1206 X7R each.
Will test the PSU now...
[..]

Machine is working now as expected. Currently it is "erasing" the Disk0..
53 Minutes...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May 12 08:11:11 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 15:11:11 +0200
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <E2E36230-033C-4F8C-8A0B-031FA84E5749@aracnet.com>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
 <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>
 <5550AC1D.5060206@update.uu.se>
 <E2E36230-033C-4F8C-8A0B-031FA84E5749@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <5551FBEF.3090200@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-11 16:43, Zane Healy wrote:
>
> On May 11, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>>>> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that ended up being commercialized.
>>>>
>>>> 	paul
>>>
>>> That's still what it stands for, and they're still around.
>>
>> They are? We should talk to them about getting the OMSI Pascal released then. There are things I'd like to improve in there... :-)
>>
>> 	Johnny
>
> Good luck trying to find anyone there that knows that they had anything to do with PDP-11's.  They moved at some point in the late 80's or early 90's, at which time they became far less interesting.  I never knew they did anything PDP-11 related until the late-90's, thanks in part to this list.
>
> http://www.omsi.edu


Hmm. That turned out to be slightly different than what I expected... :-)
But anyway, OMSI Pascal was carried on by Oregon Software, which if I 
understand things right was a spinoff from OMSI. That is the company I 
would like to find the remnants of.

	Johnny


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 09:23:15 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:23:15 +0200
Subject: Running a Z8-02 MPD on a breadboard
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSPVW2KrjByFzNgBhDF+VFFGdc_9OcXYvAkdGz8Rnygug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSPVW2KrjByFzNgBhDF+VFFGdc_9OcXYvAkdGz8Rnygug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150512142315.GB93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Eric Smith wrote:

> Some time back I acquired a Zilog Z8-02 MPD. This is the bond-out
> version of the Z8 microcontroller. The normal Z8 contained 2K of
[..]

Just for your Interest, I have a bunch of old east german U8820 and U8840
processors wich is the same thing in Quad Inline Plastic housing.
I've build an LED-Clock out of one of them that gets time and date from the
german Time Transmitter DCF77 at 77.5Khz.

The U8820 supports an external 2K Eprom (2716) and the U8840 4K (2732).
There was an DIL 40 version with internal basic interpreter simila to
Zilogs, but different.

In that thread from the german Forum robotrontechnik.de you can find pics
from a similar clock with this chip.

http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=5395

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From scaron at umich.edu  Tue May 12 08:56:27 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:56:27 -0400
Subject: Running a Z8-02 MPD on a breadboard
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSPVW2KrjByFzNgBhDF+VFFGdc_9OcXYvAkdGz8Rnygug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSPVW2KrjByFzNgBhDF+VFFGdc_9OcXYvAkdGz8Rnygug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWWFJpiyYPULdce5u8PQ0wZJbtNbSwXQjc=njA8nii5XA@mail.gmail.com>

Cool! I love doing SBCs ... I did a 6502 last summer, and I've got a
TMS9995 on the bench hopefully I can finish this summer. Neat package on
that Z8-02 ... never seen that before.

Best,

Sean


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:41 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some time back I acquired a Zilog Z8-02 MPD. This is the bond-out
> version of the Z8 microcontroller. The normal Z8 contained 2K of
> internal masked ROM and was packaged in a 40-pin DIP. The Z8-02 had no
> masked ROM (or possibly the masked ROM was disabled), and the address
> and data buses for the internal ROM, along with a few clock and
> control signals, were brought out to the extra 24 pins of a 64-contact
> ceramic leadless quad-in-line package (QUIP). Typically for emulation
> it would be used with a 2716 EPROM, or 2KB of RAM with address and
> data multiplexers for a fancy emulator.
>
> The ceramic leadless QUIP package was used for bondouts from Intel and
> Zilog, and later, for the Intel iAPX 432 components. Later it was
> replaced with the square JEDEC ceramic leadless package. Note that the
> ceramic leadless QUIP is unrelated to the more common leaded QUIP
> packages used by NEC, Rockwell, and Motorola.
>
> Unlike many modern leadless packages (DFN, QFN, BGA), the ceramic
> leadless QUIP is intended for use only in a socket, which was made by
> 3M. Today the sockets are even harder to find than the chips that
> require them.
>
> I designed a simple QUIP adapter for use with solderless breadboards,
> and wired up a Z8-02 MPD along with a 28C16 EEPROM for the program
> memory, a 62256 static RAM, address latch, and decoder. I programmed a
> copy of the Z8671 Basic/Debug interpreter into the EEPROM. To my
> amazement, it worked the first time.
>
> Photos:
>     https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157652653732622
>
> The last "photo" is a screen shot of Kermit talking to it. I've
> entered an inefficient program to search for primes, and the screen
> shot shows it being LISTed, RUN, and then stopped after a few primes
> have been found.
>
> Not shown, I printed the value of some of the interpreter's globals,
> to verify that the static RAM was recognized properly. (The
> interpreter can actually provide minimal functionality with no
> external memory!)
>
> While Zilog only claimed it to be a subset of Dartmouth BASIC, the
> interpreter does not include the FOR statement, so IMNSHO it barely
> even qualifies to be considered a "tiny BASIC".
>
> The competing National Semiconductor INS8073 had 2.5K of ROM, and
> Intel 8052AH-BASIC had 8K, so they supported more features of BASIC.
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 12 09:50:07 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 07:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk..
In-Reply-To: <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511070110.GB36763@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120744010.27475@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 12 May 2015, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> The first "Log" window shows what is the problem (A508) and the text
> after that window says that the disk got some pedagogic kick and after that
> it decided to work again..
> . . .
> I'll try that pedagogic kick first..

When I got my California Community College teaching credentials,
(1980, when it was state run, before they let college administrators
declare themselves competent to teach anything they wanted!), one of
the requirements was to take a few graduate courses in education.
In those classes, for the PEDAGOGY requirement, they never taught
us the KICK UPSIDE THE HEAD.  We were expected to learn that later,
on the job.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Tue May 12 09:55:30 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 08:55:30 -0600
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <20150511171741.3DA0F404E6@smtp.hushmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>
 <20150511171741.3DA0F404E6@smtp.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmskC4SqkpOBwjnKXRUN7Y02AVDZgtnyzduKoTNsYGBG0+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Kirk B Davis <kirkbdavis at hush.com> wrote:

> Pictures?? :-)
>

I assume you mean for the RI PDP-12.

http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May 12 10:20:59 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:20:59 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>


> On May 11, 2015, at 11:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC
>> machines could punch cards.
> 
> Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
> options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
> 
> PDP-8: CP08
> PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
> PDP-11 and VAX: CP11

Do you have any descriptions of that?  I have not seen any mention of a CP11 in any peripherals handbook, nor in any OS.  Was that a CSS product?  Who built the punch engine?  What sort of interface did it use?

	paul



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 12 10:36:28 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:36:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
Message-ID: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    Holm Tiffe wrote:

    > Yes guys, it's true.
    > I've successfully "repaired" the drive with an careful hit from a
    > rubber-hammer! 

I am pretty blown away! Hard to believe that a disk can be fixed with that
kind of treatment!

But I shouldn't be. Remember that scene in one of the early Stars Wars movies
where they go to make the jump to hyperspace (or something like that), and
nothing happens, and Hans gets up and whacks the bulkhead in a very
particular spot, and then it works?

I first saw that movie with a couple of people from the MIT computer lab, and
we were all convulsed with laughter at that scene. One of our mainframes had
a sticky power relay, and when you hit the 'power off' on the front console,
nothing would happen. So you'd walk around to the back of the machine, open a
door, and give a particular box a good whack in a particular way with your
fist, and it would power off.

Some things just never change!

	Noel

From curt at atarimuseum.com  Tue May 12 10:36:48 2015
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:36:48 -0400
Subject: Available in NY 10512 - CDC 721 Plato Terminal boxed.
Message-ID: <55521E10.2060001@atarimuseum.com>

Hi have a boxed CDC 721 Plato terminal, making room so need to 
sell/trade it.   Its VERY heavy and would prefer someone pick it up.   
Please contact me off list - curtv2015 at gmail.com   

Thanks,
Curt



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 12 10:41:00 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 08:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120840001.27728@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 12 May 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> nothing would happen. So you'd walk around to the back of the machine, open a
> door, and give a particular box a good whack in a particular way with your
> fist, and it would power off.


"Hitting console with hammer:  $1
"Knowing where to hit it:    $999



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May 12 11:01:53 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 17:01:53 +0100
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <010901d08ccc$f774fa40$e65eeec0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 12 May 2015 16:21
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
> 
> 
> > On May 11, 2015, at 11:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
> wrote:
> >> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC
> >> machines could punch cards.
> >
> > Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
> > options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
> >
> > PDP-8: CP08
> > PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
> > PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
> 
> Do you have any descriptions of that?  I have not seen any mention of a
CP11
> in any peripherals handbook, nor in any OS.  Was that a CSS product?  Who
> built the punch engine?  What sort of interface did it use?
> 
> 	paul
> 
This site lists it as an M7824 card...

http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt

this page from Chilton Labs 

http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/icf/phase1/p007.htm

implies a punch is available, but neither say which model punch...

Dave


From jws at jwsss.com  Tue May 12 11:20:04 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:20:04 -0700
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <010901d08ccc$f774fa40$e65eeec0$@gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
 <010901d08ccc$f774fa40$e65eeec0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55522834.90500@jwsss.com>



On 5/12/2015 9:01 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>> Koning
>> Sent: 12 May 2015 16:21
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> Subject: Re: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
>>
>>
>>> On May 11, 2015, at 11:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
>> wrote:
>>>> I don't know how common card readers were, but I don't think any DEC
>>>> machines could punch cards.
>>> Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
>>> options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
>>>
>>> PDP-8: CP08
>>> PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
>>> PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
>> Do you have any descriptions of that?  I have not seen any mention of a
> CP11
>> in any peripherals handbook, nor in any OS.  Was that a CSS product?  Who
>> built the punch engine?  What sort of interface did it use?
>>
>> 	paul
>>
> This site lists it as an M7824 card...
>
> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt
>
> this page from Chilton Labs
>
> http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/icf/phase1/p007.htm
>
> implies a punch is available, but neither say which model punch...
>
> Dave
>
>
Microdata offered a custom wiring job to punch cards with a Univac 
keypunch, instead of IBM.

It used a standard board they had with a clocked parallel output to 
punch cards.  Carriage control would feed cards w/o the need to send all 
columns to trigger card feed.

There was a remote switch on the Univac Keypunch keyboard that allowed 
the unit to be switched to punch via the 1600.  Output could be done 
with the same machine code as a printer driver.

Interface was ascii, and logic in the keypunch custom board 
(wirewrapped) translated the codes.

Jim

From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 12:26:08 2015
From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:26:08 -0500
Subject: Wills (was VCF Ban...)
Message-ID: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>

>Message: 6
>Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:41:16 +0000
>From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS
	>Keyboard
<snip>
>My biggest worry is that my will will not be found and/or my next of kin will not 
>get contacted. He isn't a relative of mine, just a very close friend. He is the 
>beneficiary of my will and the exector, but if this is not realised he might not
>get what he should. I am wondering if there is some way of ensuring he gets told
>if anything should happen to me (not that I am planning anything like that, but...)
>
>-tony
 
Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that you have a will and either give them a copy or tell them what your wishes are. Then put a copy of the will where it can easily be found (such as in your desk drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting our sons and my brothers know what we are planning. They all will know where to look for the official copy of the will.
 
Bob
 		 	   		  

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 12:28:17 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:28:17 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de> <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
 <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20150512172817.GC93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> > On 2015-05-12 11:55, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > >Ok, the disk passed the tests with ok.
> > 
> > Excellent.
> > 
> > >I've tried to boot something from DIA0 DIA1 and DIA2..nosurchfile so the
> > >disks seems to be empty.
> > 
> > Oh Well...
> > 
> > >Now I think about a reformat of the drives, but there is no such procedure.
> > >There is an erase program that should rewrite eachs sector with several
> > >patterns. I'll think that it will do the job.
> > >Does an format programm exists "in the field"  or is something like thisi
> > >proprietary to DEC?
> > 
> > Why would you want to reformat the drives?
> > That said, I would expect such a utility to exist in the firmware of the 
> > drive.
> > But normally, since these drives remap bad sectors automatically, you 
> > should normally just go on using them, and everything is ok.
> > 
> > 	Johnny
> 
> The exerciser showed some correctable soft errors, wich is pretty much
> normal I think. Reformating the drive should simply "freshen up" the data
> tracks but erase should do the same in this regard.
> Since the distks aren't containing anything interresting, it would be the
> right time now to do a reformat.
> I think the head assembly has an voice coil engine anyways, so servo tracks
> are needed to do the positioning. It is clear that they aren't affected from
> a reformat...
> 

Johnny the success proves that I'm right. After "erasing" the disk the
exerciser run found no soft read errors anymore. "Soft error read count 0".
BTW: This was the disk that I've hammered :-)


Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 12:30:33 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:30:33 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120840001.27728@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120840001.27728@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20150512173033.GD93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Tue, 12 May 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >nothing would happen. So you'd walk around to the back of the machine, 
> >open a
> >door, and give a particular box a good whack in a particular way with your
> >fist, and it would power off.
> 
> 
> "Hitting console with hammer:  $1
> "Knowing where to hit it:    $999
> 

Yes thats right. I've thought about where to slam before slamming to that
drive and I've used an rubber hammer.

I think this solution (on a still standing disk) is far better than opening
it outside of a clean atmosphere..

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May 12 12:32:50 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 13:32:50 -0400
Subject: Wills 
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>


> On May 12, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Robert Feldman <r_a_feldman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:41:16 +0000
>> From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
>> Subject: RE: VCF Ban, Vector Graphic cards, Wright card punch, MDS
> 	>Keyboard
> <snip>
>> My biggest worry is that my will will not be found and/or my next of kin will not 
>> get contacted. He isn't a relative of mine, just a very close friend. He is the 
>> beneficiary of my will and the exector, but if this is not realised he might not
>> get what he should. I am wondering if there is some way of ensuring he gets told
>> if anything should happen to me (not that I am planning anything like that, but...)
>> 
>> -tony
> 
> Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that you have a will and either give them a copy or tell them what your wishes are. Then put a copy of the will where it can easily be found (such as in your desk drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting our sons and my brothers know what we are planning. They all will know where to look for the official copy of the will.

Yes, I would say so.  In addition, it seems strange to name a person as executor without telling that person.  It seems better to tell (or rather, ask) first.  Then you don?t have to worry about imposing a duty on someone that he?s not willing (or, perhaps, able) to accept, and it also solves the problem of others knowing there exists a will.

	paul



From js at cimmeri.com  Tue May 12 12:33:29 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:33:29 -0500
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <20150512173033.GD93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120840001.27728@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150512173033.GD93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55523969.1040504@cimmeri.com>



On 5/12/2015 12:30 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>
>> "Hitting console with hammer:  $1
>> "Knowing where to hit it:    $999
>>
> Yes thats right. I've thought about where to slam before slamming to that
> drive and I've used an rubber hammer.
>
> I think this solution (on a still standing disk) is far better than opening
> it outside of a clean atmosphere..
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm


Head stiction is a very common problem 
on older drives.. particularly MFM... 
especially if they've been sitting for a 
long while.    I do this all the time.

- J.



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May 12 12:39:39 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 13:39:39 -0400
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <20150512172817.GC93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de> <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
 <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512172817.GC93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <F709F210-0278-4BDF-A3FF-FF4DA6FBC564@comcast.net>


> On May 12, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> 
>>> ...
>> 
>> The exerciser showed some correctable soft errors, wich is pretty much
>> normal I think. Reformating the drive should simply "freshen up" the data
>> tracks but erase should do the same in this regard.
>> Since the distks aren't containing anything interresting, it would be the
>> right time now to do a reformat.
>> I think the head assembly has an voice coil engine anyways, so servo tracks
>> are needed to do the positioning. It is clear that they aren't affected from
>> a reformat...
>> 
> 
> Johnny the success proves that I'm right. After "erasing" the disk the
> exerciser run found no soft read errors anymore. "Soft error read count 0".
> BTW: This was the disk that I've hammered :-)

Servo data is unaffected by formatting.  If you have read errors, simply overwriting the drive may be sufficient, but certainly formatting would.  That assumes such an operation even exists; in some cases, when people say ?format? they simply mean pattern-checking the drive and/or creating a new empty file system on it.  For example, in PDP-11 disks, a ?real? format operation that does more than just rewrite the data appears only on a few drive models: RP03 and RK05 do, most others don?t.  Some MSCP drives also, I think, but those only via magic code running on the controller, not from the OS.

On drives with dedicated servo tracks (RP04 family for example) the servo head is only a read head.  But in all cases, servo writing is done on specialized machines, and only at the factory.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue May 12 12:51:07 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 13:51:07 -0400
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <010901d08ccc$f774fa40$e65eeec0$@gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
 <010901d08ccc$f774fa40$e65eeec0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4920538D-0413-49DD-8F30-4BB173518163@comcast.net>


> On May 12, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
> This site lists it as an M7824 card...
> 
> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt

Found that module number in a copy of the Option-Modules List.  It shows that it?s a CSS item.  That would explain why few have ever heard of it.  I wonder what punch it used.  I?ve seen people use CDC punches (415) as OEM devices.  JWS mentioned someone interfacing a machine to a keypunch.  That?s a bit of a desperation tactic, it would be extremely slow.

	paul



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 12 12:57:29 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wills (was VCF Ban...)
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505121053070.27728@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 12 May 2015, Robert Feldman wrote:
> Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that you 
> have a will and either give them a copy or tell them what your wishes 
> are. Then put a copy of the will where it can easily be found (such as 
> in your desk drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting 
> our sons and my brothers know what we are planning. They all will know 
> where to look for the official copy of the will.

In some areas, a will can be filed with the local guvmint (county in this 
case).
If the lawyer who participated in drafting the will is around, they should 
keep a notarized copy.

But, make sure that any and all who will have access to the physical 
premises know where a copy is filed.

In our cases, it is unlikely to be contested.  Just an informal note to 
family, etc. should be sufficient, naming somebody who "is willing to come 
haul away all of this useless obsolete computer junk and crap". 
(cf. Don Maslin)

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue May 12 13:31:48 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:31:48 -0600
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl>
 <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRU7mXqWUdxT83REc+XOb+wcDre-LVmYYdwhT_8fmkPsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> On May 11, 2015, at 11:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
>> options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
>>
>> PDP-8: CP08
>> PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
>> PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
>
> Do you have any descriptions of that?  I have not seen any mention of a CP11 in any peripherals handbook, nor in any OS.  Was that a CSS product?

The CP11 might have been CSS. I wouldn't have thought so since the one
VAX site I knew that had one wouldn't likely have ordered CSS gear.
Possibly at one time they had enough need for punching cards to
justify buying CSS, but by the time I encountered it the punch was
always powered down with a dust cover over it.

>  Who built the punch engine?  What sort of interface did it use?

AFAIK, DEC didn't build any card punches; they are all OEM'd with
DEC-built interfaces. For the PDP-10 they OEM'd several different
models, possibly from multiple vendors. I don't know the details of
any of them, even though I used two different ones back in the day.

IIRC, the CP20 was a Unibus device, and might or might not have been
program-compatible with the CP11.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue May 12 14:00:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:00:12 +0000
Subject: Wills 
In-Reply-To: <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


>
> > Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that you have a will and either give them a copy or 
> > tell them what your wishes are. Then put a copy of the will where it can easily be found (such as in your desk 
> > drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting our sons and my brothers know what we are 
> > planning. They all will know where to look for the official copy of the will.
> 
> Yes, I would say so.  In addition, it seems strange to name a person as executor without telling that person.  It 
> seems better to tell (or rather, ask) first.  Then you don?t have to worry about imposing a duty on someone that 
> he?s not willing (or, perhaps, able) to accept, and it also solves the problem of others knowing there exists a will.

I wasn't clear...

Of course the beneficiary/executor/next-of-kin (all one person) knows what my wishes are and that he
is the exector of my estate. I made sure he was willing to do that before I made my will. And I have given
him a copy of the will (with 'Copy' written across it so there is no doubt) so that he knows what to look for and
so he can show anyone else and use it as evidence that a will is likely to exist.

My problem is that I have no family. So if I am run over by an omnibus, or electrocute myself while working
on an Omnubus PDP8/e how will whoever finds the corpse know to look for the will and who to contact. One
idea that has been suggested (and which I intend to carry out) is to have a message hanging on the wall of
the hall giving the location of the will, etc. And to have a card naming next of kin etc in my wallet. Hopefully
that will be enough.

-tony

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Tue May 12 14:03:42 2015
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 15:03:42 -0400
Subject: Wills
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>

On 05/12/2015 03:00 PM, tony duell wrote:
>
>>
>>> Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that you have a will and either give them a copy or
>>> tell them what your wishes are. Then put a copy of the will where it can easily be found (such as in your desk
>>> drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting our sons and my brothers know what we are
>>> planning. They all will know where to look for the official copy of the will.
>>
>> Yes, I would say so.  In addition, it seems strange to name a person as executor without telling that person.  It
>> seems better to tell (or rather, ask) first.  Then you don?t have to worry about imposing a duty on someone that
>> he?s not willing (or, perhaps, able) to accept, and it also solves the problem of others knowing there exists a will.
>
> I wasn't clear...
>
> Of course the beneficiary/executor/next-of-kin (all one person) knows what my wishes are and that he
> is the exector of my estate. I made sure he was willing to do that before I made my will. And I have given
> him a copy of the will (with 'Copy' written across it so there is no doubt) so that he knows what to look for and
> so he can show anyone else and use it as evidence that a will is likely to exist.
>
> My problem is that I have no family. So if I am run over by an omnibus, or electrocute myself while working
> on an Omnubus PDP8/e how will whoever finds the corpse know to look for the will and who to contact. One
> idea that has been suggested (and which I intend to carry out) is to have a message hanging on the wall of
> the hall giving the location of the will, etc. And to have a card naming next of kin etc in my wallet. Hopefully
> that will be enough.
>
> -tony
>
	Isn't there a website or service, for this sort of thing? Something 
like where if you don't check in in a certain amount of time, notices 
get sent out?

-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue May 12 14:02:54 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:02:54 +0000
Subject: Wills (was VCF Ban...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505121053070.27728@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505121053070.27728@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3397@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> In some areas, a will can be filed with the local guvmint (county in this
> case).
> If the lawyer who participated in drafting the will is around, they should
> keep a notarized copy.

No lawyer was involved (in the UK there is no requirement for that, all that is 
required is that it is signed by the person making the will observed by 2 witnesses
who then have to sign observed by the person making the will. Oh yes, those 
witnesses can't be beneficiaries under the will). So I did it myself.. Over here
some banks will store a will, but they make a charge for doing so. I should look into
it though.

> But, make sure that any and all who will have access to the physical
> premises know where a copy is filed.

Problem : The only such person is me.

-tony

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 14:04:56 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:04:56 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <F709F210-0278-4BDF-A3FF-FF4DA6FBC564@comcast.net>
References: <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de> <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
 <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512172817.GC93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <F709F210-0278-4BDF-A3FF-FF4DA6FBC564@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20150512190456.GE93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Paul Koning wrote:

> 
> > On May 12, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > 
> >>> ...
> >> 
> >> The exerciser showed some correctable soft errors, wich is pretty much
> >> normal I think. Reformating the drive should simply "freshen up" the data
> >> tracks but erase should do the same in this regard.
> >> Since the distks aren't containing anything interresting, it would be the
> >> right time now to do a reformat.
> >> I think the head assembly has an voice coil engine anyways, so servo tracks
> >> are needed to do the positioning. It is clear that they aren't affected from
> >> a reformat...
> >> 
> > 
> > Johnny the success proves that I'm right. After "erasing" the disk the
> > exerciser run found no soft read errors anymore. "Soft error read count 0".
> > BTW: This was the disk that I've hammered :-)
> 
> Servo data is unaffected by formatting.  If you have read errors, simply overwriting the drive may be sufficient, but certainly formatting would.  That assumes such an operation even exists; in some cases, when people say ?format? they simply mean pattern-checking the drive and/or creating a new empty file system on it.  For example, in PDP-11 disks, a ?real? format operation that does more than just rewrite the data appears only on a few drive models: RP03 and RK05 do, most others don?t.  Some MSCP drives also, I think, but those only via magic code running on the controller, not from the OS.
> 
> On drives with dedicated servo tracks (RP04 family for example) the servo head is only a read head.  But in all cases, servo writing is done on specialized machines, and only at the factory.
> 
> 	paul
> 

Yes. Thats similar to that what I wrote above.

In the case of the RFxx Disks, DSSI Disks, you can only run the local to
the drive commands and there isn't any format option. SCSI drives can
(mostly) reformat themselves and possibly with different sector sizes.
But this doesnt affect the servo tracks, that's pretty clear.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue May 12 14:04:55 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:04:55 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511152312.GC63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAAq7DHpXpzPpUOLpa1SHLvcb6hg6hrL7jZzkKG5iVtXH=8jNFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <55524ED7.2060303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 12.05.15 um 10:13 schrieb Holm Tiffe:
> I've successfully "repaired" the drive with an careful hit from a
> rubber-hammer! It seems that this way a stick headassemble gets free'd up
> again.
Yes. This is the standard repair method for IBM 066x SCSI disks...
Did it several times.
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue May 12 14:07:56 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:07:56 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <55524ED7.2060303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAM2UOwL8QzOK88-YrcGExKJvgLg2W=3zEmFOipPSwMTo612MYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55524ED7.2060303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20150512190756.GF93693@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jochen Kunz wrote:

> Am 12.05.15 um 10:13 schrieb Holm Tiffe:
> > I've successfully "repaired" the drive with an careful hit from a
> > rubber-hammer! It seems that this way a stick headassemble gets free'd up
> > again.
> Yes. This is the standard repair method for IBM 066x SCSI disks...
> Did it several times.
> -- 
> 
> tsch??,
>        Jochen

Huh? I don't remember that I ever had this kind of problem with 0663s but I had
one that wasn't sure what type itself was, sometimes an IBM0663, sometimes an
WDxxxx...

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Tue May 12 14:08:33 2015
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 15:08:33 -0400
Subject: Wills
In-Reply-To: <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <55524FB1.5000207@sbcglobal.net>

On 05/12/2015 03:03 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
> On 05/12/2015 03:00 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Probably the best thing you can do is let the next of kin know that
>>>> you have a will and either give them a copy or
>>>> tell them what your wishes are. Then put a copy of the will where it
>>>> can easily be found (such as in your desk
>>>> drawer). My wife and I are redoing our will and are letting our sons
>>>> and my brothers know what we are
>>>> planning. They all will know where to look for the official copy of
>>>> the will.
>>>
>>> Yes, I would say so.  In addition, it seems strange to name a person
>>> as executor without telling that person.  It
>>> seems better to tell (or rather, ask) first.  Then you don?t have to
>>> worry about imposing a duty on someone that
>>> he?s not willing (or, perhaps, able) to accept, and it also solves
>>> the problem of others knowing there exists a will.
>>
>> I wasn't clear...
>>
>> Of course the beneficiary/executor/next-of-kin (all one person) knows
>> what my wishes are and that he
>> is the exector of my estate. I made sure he was willing to do that
>> before I made my will. And I have given
>> him a copy of the will (with 'Copy' written across it so there is no
>> doubt) so that he knows what to look for and
>> so he can show anyone else and use it as evidence that a will is
>> likely to exist.
>>
>> My problem is that I have no family. So if I am run over by an
>> omnibus, or electrocute myself while working
>> on an Omnubus PDP8/e how will whoever finds the corpse know to look
>> for the will and who to contact. One
>> idea that has been suggested (and which I intend to carry out) is to
>> have a message hanging on the wall of
>> the hall giving the location of the will, etc. And to have a card
>> naming next of kin etc in my wallet. Hopefully
>> that will be enough.
>>
>> -tony
>>
>      Isn't there a website or service, for this sort of thing? Something
> like where if you don't check in in a certain amount of time, notices
> get sent out?
>
	Something like these?:
http://www.thedigitalbeyond.com/online-services-list/

-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue May 12 14:07:49 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:07:49 +0000
Subject: Wills
In-Reply-To: <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C33F4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
>         Isn't there a website or service, for this sort of thing? Something
> like where if you don't check in in a certain amount of time, notices
> get sent out?

No thanks!. With my luck I will have a failure on my system and take longer than the
threshold time to track down the IC I need to fix it...

-tony

From b4 at gewt.net  Tue May 12 14:18:20 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 15:18:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CompuServe SC-40 Progress
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505121515440.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>

Hello,

I've managed to image some of the SC-40 drives (currently just for 
personal backup use due to any legal issues/possible customer data).

I've found in the documentation references to a file named COUGH.DRP which 
seems to be the CompuServe equivalent of the TOPS-10 Monitor Calls Guide.

Does anyone have a copy of the CompuServe COUGH DROPS file scurried away 
somewhere?  It would be very useful in discerning the patches to TOPS-10 
and some SC-40 extensions.

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From b4 at gewt.net  Tue May 12 14:18:20 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 15:18:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CompuServe SC-40 Progress
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505121515440.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>

Hello,

I've managed to image some of the SC-40 drives (currently just for 
personal backup use due to any legal issues/possible customer data).

I've found in the documentation references to a file named COUGH.DRP which 
seems to be the CompuServe equivalent of the TOPS-10 Monitor Calls Guide.

Does anyone have a copy of the CompuServe COUGH DROPS file scurried away 
somewhere?  It would be very useful in discerning the patches to TOPS-10 
and some SC-40 extensions.

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From linimon at lonesome.com  Tue May 12 14:19:46 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:19:46 -0500
Subject: Wills (was VCF Ban...)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505121053070.27728@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505121053070.27728@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20150512191946.GA24635@lonesome.com>

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:57:29AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> But, make sure that any and all who will have access to the physical
> premises know where a copy is filed.

I have a safety deposit box in a bank, where my best friend also has
access privileges.

mcl

From lists at loomcom.com  Tue May 12 14:25:59 2015
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:25:59 -0500
Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 (buy or borrow) near Seattle
Message-ID: <20150512192559.GA18368@loomcom.com>

Folks,

I started working on an AT&T 3B2 emulator using the SIMH platform late
last year.  As these things often do, it got side-tracked by life. We
moved to Washington state in January, and I've been consumed with
other matters since then.

I'd like to finally get back to the 3B2 emulator. Having physical
access to a real 3B2 would make this process much, much easier,
especially one I could put custom homebrew ROMs into.

If you have any 3B2s you'd be willing to let me borrow or buy, please
drop me a line. I'm located about an hour from Seattle, WA in Kitsap
County.

Or, if you're interested in a trade, I have some PDP-11 Qbus gear I'd
be willing to part with, too.

-Seth

From scaron at umich.edu  Tue May 12 13:19:44 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:19:44 -0400
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. A508 SOLVED!
In-Reply-To: <55523969.1040504@cimmeri.com>
References: <20150512153628.3A50118C113@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505120840001.27728@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150512173033.GD93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <55523969.1040504@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkU_xQ4DejiwM7_jpugAF95zFwzU1wPwDOnpetFaxkDwcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, whacking a Winchester drive to deal with stiction is an old computer
repair trick... I consider it kind of a last resort but I bet all ... most
... of us have used the technique once or twice to some success :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 1:33 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/12/2015 12:30 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>
>> Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>>
>>  "Hitting console with hammer:  $1
>>> "Knowing where to hit it:    $999
>>>
>>>  Yes thats right. I've thought about where to slam before slamming to
>> that
>> drive and I've used an rubber hammer.
>>
>> I think this solution (on a still standing disk) is far better than
>> opening
>> it outside of a clean atmosphere..
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Holm
>>
>
>
> Head stiction is a very common problem on older drives.. particularly
> MFM... especially if they've been sitting for a long while.    I do this
> all the time.
>
> - J.
>
>
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue May 12 14:40:09 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:40:09 -0700
Subject: Wanted: AT&T 3B2 (buy or borrow) near Seattle
In-Reply-To: <20150512192559.GA18368@loomcom.com>
References: <20150512192559.GA18368@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYDrupqg8aQyeJ1REVQEE761PrP+Ni7R4DC0BroDuXjPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I started working on an AT&T 3B2 emulator using the SIMH platform late
> last year.  As these things often do, it got side-tracked by life. We
> moved to Washington state in January, and I've been consumed with
> other matters since then.
>
> I'd like to finally get back to the 3B2 emulator. Having physical
> access to a real 3B2 would make this process much, much easier,
> especially one I could put custom homebrew ROMs into.
>
> If you have any 3B2s you'd be willing to let me borrow or buy, please
> drop me a line. I'm located about an hour from Seattle, WA in Kitsap
> County.
>
> Or, if you're interested in a trade, I have some PDP-11 Qbus gear I'd
> be willing to part with, too.
>

You are more than welcome to borrow either of mine, I have a 3B2/310 (no
ethernet) and a 3B2/600 (ethernet), and I'm in Bothell so it's not too far
away :)

- Josh



>
> -Seth
>

From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net  Tue May 12 15:03:16 2015
From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:03:16 -0400
Subject: Wills
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C33F4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <BAY179-W88109CEAA60210D72EEC2EB5DA0@phx.gbl>,
 <DFF13CCD-B5B7-4B24-895F-889CDE3BE6BD@comcast.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3389@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <55524E8E.5070601@sbcglobal.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C33F4@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <55525C84.7000909@sbcglobal.net>

On 05/12/2015 03:07 PM, tony duell wrote:
>>
>>          Isn't there a website or service, for this sort of thing? Something
>> like where if you don't check in in a certain amount of time, notices
>> get sent out?
>
> No thanks!. With my luck I will have a failure on my system and take longer than the
> threshold time to track down the IC I need to fix it...
>
> -tony
>

	For you, good point.... :)

-- 
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue May 12 15:31:58 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:31:58 +0100
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20150511164327.GE63366@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAM2UOwKmYc3kbSWNvD5rBEQX6y1X6OVbg2LoPCPJLY-1eVLpQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
 <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAArkeuh1LH-31t0CSWcZXgs6xp3-u1Sdh+ZFTPCVTygbEcq3xA@mail.gmail.com>

I can really sympathise with you on the PSU front. I tried to repair one of
these, but it was designed in such a way that it was really hard to get at
the caps to remove them for testing. My problem was that even when I did
get to the big Sprague one I couldn't desolder it, presumably there was a
large track/plane taking all the heat away. In the end I gave that PSU away
(along with another working one) to someone who is much better than me.
Although I don't know if he has fixed it yet.

Regards

Rob

On 12 May 2015 at 13:33, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:

> Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> > On 2015-05-12 11:55, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > >Ok, the disk passed the tests with ok.
> >
> > Excellent.
> >
> > >I've tried to boot something from DIA0 DIA1 and DIA2..nosurchfile so the
> > >disks seems to be empty.
> >
> > Oh Well...
> >
> > >Now I think about a reformat of the drives, but there is no such
> procedure.
> > >There is an erase program that should rewrite eachs sector with several
> > >patterns. I'll think that it will do the job.
> > >Does an format programm exists "in the field"  or is something like
> thisi
> > >proprietary to DEC?
> >
> > Why would you want to reformat the drives?
> > That said, I would expect such a utility to exist in the firmware of the
> > drive.
> > But normally, since these drives remap bad sectors automatically, you
> > should normally just go on using them, and everything is ok.
> >
> >       Johnny
>
> The exerciser showed some correctable soft errors, wich is pretty much
> normal I think. Reformating the drive should simply "freshen up" the data
> tracks but erase should do the same in this regard.
> Since the distks aren't containing anything interresting, it would be the
> right time now to do a reformat.
> I think the head assembly has an voice coil engine anyways, so servo tracks
> are needed to do the positioning. It is clear that they aren't affected
> from
> a reformat...
>
>
> I've changed some Nippon Chemicon electrolytics from the PSU now. All
> 330?F 25V Caps are bad, an 1000?F 25V too, where other Caps from the same
> company are still ok. I've changed the 330? Caps against some good Rubycons
> 470? 25V from which I have "masses".
> The construktor of that H7874 Supply is an dump asshole, no one should ever
> construct switching PSU's in a way that it makes it impossible to desolder
> broken electrolytic Caps! One module with 2 x 330?F Caps is build this way!
> I had to pull of that bad caps, ..brown residues from the electrolyte below
> them on the pcb. Cleaned the PCB with alcohol and soldered the new caps
> from
> above, briged them with an 1206 X7R each.
> Will test the PSU now...
> [..]
>
> Machine is working now as expected. Currently it is "erasing" the Disk0..
> 53 Minutes...
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
> --
>       Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>      Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>   www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May 12 16:48:08 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:48:08 +0100
Subject: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRU7mXqWUdxT83REc+XOb+wcDre-LVmYYdwhT_8fmkPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008701d08aff$37921b00$a6b65100$@ntlworld.com>
 <554F523E.6010904@dds.nl> <BDC70C0A-649C-486A-89EE-44C5C5B59E98@comcast.net>
 <CANij+df2-pNBTyJpPgmw_nmRNfZGeha9oVXhb4=qtBhFBNGJaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5185DD6B-D712-4974-999D-5DD62934A2CE@comcast.net>
 <CANij+deHbTBNxpoy0jQWuVQZRxnL9veDgzKp-Qu82D3czj+J5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FAC2F.9000406@update.uu.se>
 <CAFrGgTSzc4uGohwReqPkWtqzDL=DxnEU7B4qkWydwRjVjaviMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67E19725-736A-4826-A2D0-D562B3C01D33@comcast.net>
 <CAFrGgTRU7mXqWUdxT83REc+XOb+wcDre-LVmYYdwhT_8fmkPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021801d08cfd$5620f780$0262e680$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: 12 May 2015 19:32
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: IBM 029 Card Punch and ASCII Machines
> 
> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >> On May 11, 2015, at 11:56 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Almost all DEC machines up through early VAX supported card punch
> >> options. They just weren't very common other than on PDP-10.
> >>
> >> PDP-8: CP08
> >> PDP-10: CP10 (multiple variants) and CP20
> >> PDP-11 and VAX: CP11
> >
> > Do you have any descriptions of that?  I have not seen any mention of a
> CP11 in any peripherals handbook, nor in any OS.  Was that a CSS product?
> 
> The CP11 might have been CSS. I wouldn't have thought so since the one
> VAX site I knew that had one wouldn't likely have ordered CSS gear.
> Possibly at one time they had enough need for punching cards to justify
> buying CSS, but by the time I encountered it the punch was always powered
> down with a dust cover over it.
> 
> >  Who built the punch engine?  What sort of interface did it use?
> 
> AFAIK, DEC didn't build any card punches; they are all OEM'd with DEC-built
> interfaces. For the PDP-10 they OEM'd several different models, possibly
> from multiple vendors. I don't know the details of any of them, even though
> I used two different ones back in the day.
> 
> IIRC, the CP20 was a Unibus device, and might or might not have been
> program-compatible with the CP11.

For the PDP-8 the docs I found on the web suggest a very old IBM punch from the 1950's

Dave


From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue May 12 20:04:51 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 18:04:51 -0700
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaXgrsOL64dyLgxZxcew0gPdLwFV_DfZHxdKCLjtrdg-w@mail.gmail.com>

I have a VAXStation 3520 I'd like to upgrade a bit (because why not) -- if
anyone has any spares they'd be willing to sell/trade for, let me know.
I'm looking for additional memory (I have only 8mb) or an extra dual
processor board (so I can have a quad-processor VAX, which sounds fun).

Thanks as always,
Josh

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue May 12 20:30:08 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 20:30:08 -0500
Subject: HP board id?
Message-ID: <000001d08d1c$5a4eaa90$0eebffb0$@classiccmp.org>

It seems over the years I acquired more than a just a few of these (two
types of) boards for the HP1000. I'm pretty certain they all came from a
batch of about twenty HP 1000 series systems I got that were decommissioned
from military use. They do not seem to be HP in origin, and I don't have any
clue what they are for. Mostly they seem to be stuffed with large numbers of
op amps and some line drivers. Perhaps just flight line testing or ATP?

 

If no one thinks these are of any use. they will be scavenged for bus driver
chips. But I'd hate to do that if they might be historical or "interesting".

 

A few pictures of each board are at www.ezwind.net/hp-unk

I tossed in the "-" because hpunk just looked wrong ;)

 

Educated guesses?

 

J

 

 

 

 


From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue May 12 21:54:18 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:54:18 -0500
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>

A new AT&T video out today showing their (at the time, the Bell
System's) internal CAD and messaging system, TOPES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKbFM770dus

Not a lot of info out there about it but it appears to have run on
DEC-10 machines.  There are a none of those to be seen in the video
but there are a few AT&T/Teletype Dataspeed and Tektronix terminals.
Interesting early collaboration system that probably never left Bell -
did anyone here work with it?

-j

From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Tue May 12 22:11:45 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 20:11:45 -0700
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150513031145.97099403D8@smtp.hushmail.com>

The youtube video description says 1978 and going to say it looks impressive for the time but at the end if the video says 1983.

On May 12, 2015 at 7:54 PM, "Jason T" <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>A new AT&T video out today showing their (at the time, the Bell
>System's) internal CAD and messaging system, TOPES:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKbFM770dus
>
>Not a lot of info out there about it but it appears to have run on
>DEC-10 machines.  There are a none of those to be seen in the video
>but there are a few AT&T/Teletype Dataspeed and Tektronix 
>terminals.
>Interesting early collaboration system that probably never left 
>Bell -
>did anyone here work with it?
>
>-j


From b4 at gewt.net  Tue May 12 22:26:34 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 23:26:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505122325580.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>

On Tue, 12 May 2015, Jason T wrote:

> A new AT&T video out today showing their (at the time, the Bell
> System's) internal CAD and messaging system, TOPES:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKbFM770dus
>
> Not a lot of info out there about it but it appears to have run on
> DEC-10 machines.  There are a none of those to be seen in the video
> but there are a few AT&T/Teletype Dataspeed and Tektronix terminals.
> Interesting early collaboration system that probably never left Bell -
> did anyone here work with it?
>
> -j
>

Looks like it MIGHT be running atop TOPS-10.  Anyone agree/disagree?

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au  Tue May 12 22:45:17 2015
From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:45:17 +1000
Subject: Altair 8800 FPS games
Message-ID: <5552C8CD.3030800@yahoo.com.au>

Are there any FPS games for Altair 8800?


Bonus points: ASCII WOLF3D or DOOM

-- 
tom sparks
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't need no stinking x86!

From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue May 12 22:59:38 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:59:38 -0500
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <20150513031145.97099403D8@smtp.hushmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150513031145.97099403D8@smtp.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SH=zJUC2a9Hy+et3a4WvKkt51mOeAvJJ7NbvYJRgTYx-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:11 PM, Kirk B Davis <kirkbdavis at hush.com> wrote:
> The youtube video description says 1978 and going to say it looks impressive for the time but at the end if the video says 1983.

Yeah, I noticed that, too.  I think TOPES was introduced in the late
70s, though, as there are BSPs from 1978 and 1979 that reference it:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/bsp-handbooks/doc_view/9523-760-100-001-i1
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/bsps-bell-system-practices/doc_view/9525-760-100-015-i1

I don't those are online, however.

From hpfparts at yahoo.com  Tue May 12 23:48:01 2015
From: hpfparts at yahoo.com (HP Friedrichs)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:48:01 -0700
Subject: HP-1000 and PDP computer parts available
Message-ID: <1431492481.8205.YahooMailBasic@web140304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my recent post about my computer board collection. The amount of interest is much greater than I had expected, so it has been taking me a little bit of time to sift through emails and contact everyone.

If you have not heard from me by now, I've made an error and overlooked you. Please accept my apologies and send me another query.

Let me reiterate--I have no asking price for these assets--I have no idea what they're worth and I'm happy that they're going into the hands of people who will appreciate them.

If you are interested in specific cards, please make an offer. There is more interest than there are cards, so the only fair way I can distribute them is on the basis of the offers.

Regards and 73,
Pete
AC7ZL

From pontus at update.uu.se  Tue May 12 15:02:34 2015
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:02:34 +0200
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
Message-ID: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>

Hi

I received a DECpc 433 Workstation today with SCSI expansion box. It's a 
small system which reminds me of the VAX VLC, but not quite.

I've not been able to find any manuals online, does anyone have anything?

Regards,
Pontus.

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 12 18:27:34 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:27:34 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_T41bgDYe3N35kEDovvt=WY7mJWbit9CQ2DKzzxWgy4Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:57:44 +0200
> From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 09:36:17AM -0600, Doug Ingraham wrote:
> > I have read that there was a device that allowed an 8/I to be interfaced
> to
> > Omnibus memory and some machines were sold this way but I have never seen
> > one.
> >
>
> I've sen one :) which is why I wondered. I've also heard of a
> straight-8 with omnibus memory.
>
> /P
>

Its called a BM812. Prints on Bitsavers at:
/pdf/dec/pdp8/omnibus/BM812-I_EngrDrws_Jun75.pdf

-- 
Michael Thompson

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Tue May 12 18:30:30 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:30:30 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:17:41 -0700
> From: "Kirk B Davis" <kirkbdavis at hush.com>
> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> Pictures?? :-)
>

http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12

-- 
Michael Thompson

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May 12 21:45:59 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (couryhouse)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:45:59 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <56maeokmnyh6n7my4db64vka.1431485159406@email.android.com>


    
What a beauty! Congrats folks!Ed#


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Michael Thompson <michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> 
Date: 05/12/2015  4:30 PM  (GMT-07:00) 
To: cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM 

>
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 10:17:41 -0700
> From: "Kirk B Davis" <kirkbdavis at hush.com>
> Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> Pictures?? :-)
>

http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12

-- 
Michael Thompson

From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed May 13 01:13:27 2015
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 08:13:27 +0200
Subject: Dead RF31 DSSI Disk.. final Question..
In-Reply-To: <CAArkeuh1LH-31t0CSWcZXgs6xp3-u1Sdh+ZFTPCVTygbEcq3xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150511183719.GA2004@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511194658.GB2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150511202830.GC2563@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeugVMGrO1qk=uLGrqjoDNOsYVg4Y4LPFgkoSd2TSDE+xhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150512051441.GB9998@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512081345.GA74357@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20150512095525.GB78675@beast.freibergnet.de> <5551EC30.101@update.uu.se>
 <20150512123259.GA93693@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAArkeuh1LH-31t0CSWcZXgs6xp3-u1Sdh+ZFTPCVTygbEcq3xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150513061327.GA89103@beast.freibergnet.de>

Jarratt RMA wrote:

> I can really sympathise with you on the PSU front. I tried to repair one of
> these, but it was designed in such a way that it was really hard to get at
> the caps to remove them for testing. My problem was that even when I did
> get to the big Sprague one I couldn't desolder it, presumably there was a
> large track/plane taking all the heat away.

I haven't even tried to desolder this rectangular Sprague 6800?/20V cap,
since in most cases bad caps in a PSU aren't the big ones, but the small.
I've leaved the entire input section with the big HV Filter Caps alone, if
one of them fails you can easily see that.
Same thing at the output caps, and the big rectangular Sprague is one.

You can desolder such thing using a Hot Air gun (SMD soldering) helping
the soldering iron to heat things up.

I would change thios cap if the PSU would still misbehave after repair,
but it works flawlessly.

But the cause for my rant where two other caps. On one of the two power
Modules" in the PSU sitting two 330?F Caps near thogether but one couldn't
reach the bottom of the PCB since the big power Transistors sitting below
the PCB iscrewed on to a heat sink and are soldered to the PCB from bottom.
There is not enough space around the Transistor Pads on the top of the
PCB to desolder them properly, so you can't dismount the Transistors and
can't dismount the heat sink at all which preventy you to change parts.
That's the thing that I call a design failure. Bad, idiotic.


> In the end I gave that PSU away
> (along with another working one) to someone who is much better than me.
> Although I don't know if he has fixed it yet.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob

I do such things all day long, reparing industrial electronics for
customers..

Regards,

Holm

PS: Please answer at bottom.
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May 13 02:12:15 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 01:12:15 -0600
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505122325580.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>
References: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505122325580.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR0gtiNxHd=wXzgTT4QRNq2+qF4HMqHhDkgpeqxWJpoTg@mail.gmail.com>

TOPES was introduced in the late 1970s, and ran on a PDP-10, using
Tektronix terminals with Plot-10. I haven't seen any specific
information about what operating system was used, but TOPS-10 seems
fairly likely.

TOPES was used at least up until the divestiture. There was a
replacement system under development called MEGS, but I don't know
whether it was completed and deployed.

From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed May 13 08:06:50 2015
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 08:06:50 -0500
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR0gtiNxHd=wXzgTT4QRNq2+qF4HMqHhDkgpeqxWJpoTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505122325580.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>
 <CAFrGgTR0gtiNxHd=wXzgTT4QRNq2+qF4HMqHhDkgpeqxWJpoTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGz1OxG7px092Q01RMLOyNcfceQaDEGsuFksA6SrMYOMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 2:12 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> TOPES was used at least up until the divestiture. There was a
> replacement system under development called MEGS, but I don't know
> whether it was completed and deployed.

According to a book that is partially online in Google Books, it was
replaced by MUGS, "Mini Unix Graphics System," running on 11/780s or
3B20s.

Not a lot of info out there about either system.

From dan.merrill at earthlink.net  Wed May 13 08:38:58 2015
From: dan.merrill at earthlink.net (Dan Merrill)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 09:38:58 -0400
Subject: DEC equipment looking for a new home 
Message-ID: <004001d08d82$2a892400$7f9b6c00$@earthlink.net>

Here's the list of equipment. 

  

I also have the keyboards, mice, cables, media, manuals, etc. 

  

                Hardware                                            Model
Number                 Serial Number                   Comments


                AXP 3000 Model 500S                     D5-PE500-AB
AB2420476G                       very heavy (~55 lbs?) 

                 (internal boards were static bagged separately from system
when moved from original location at work) 

                MicroVAX 3100                                 DV-31ATB-B-A01
KA037D0073                       - no other details - 

                DEC Concentrator (FDDI)              DEFCN-BC
AS24103079                        1 - 4 Port card and cables 

                DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
TA52900037                        never used, w/ driver disk 

                DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
TA55000002                        never used, w/ driver disk 

                VT320 Amber monitor                   TA927Y4967 (?)
59333248                             - in VERY GOOD condition - 

                VRT19 Color monitor                      VRT19-HA Rev B01
IS336820281                       very heavy (~78 lbs?) 

 . 

 

I cannot ship anything, if you can't pick it up at my house, you'll have to
pay shipping. 

 

Let me know. 

 

 


From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Wed May 13 09:06:40 2015
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:06:40 -0400
Subject: DEC equipment looking for a new home
In-Reply-To: <004001d08d82$2a892400$7f9b6c00$@earthlink.net>
References: <004001d08d82$2a892400$7f9b6c00$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20150513140639.GC12319@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

Where are you?

* Dan Merrill <dan.merrill at earthlink.net> [150513 09:49]:
> Here's the list of equipment. 
> 
>   
> 
> I also have the keyboards, mice, cables, media, manuals, etc. 
> 
>   
> 
>                 Hardware                                            Model
> Number                 Serial Number                   Comments
> 
> 
>                 AXP 3000 Model 500S                     D5-PE500-AB
> AB2420476G                       very heavy (~55 lbs?) 
> 
>                  (internal boards were static bagged separately from system
> when moved from original location at work) 
> 
>                 MicroVAX 3100                                 DV-31ATB-B-A01
> KA037D0073                       - no other details - 
> 
>                 DEC Concentrator (FDDI)              DEFCN-BC
> AS24103079                        1 - 4 Port card and cables 
> 
>                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
> TA52900037                        never used, w/ driver disk 
> 
>                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
> TA55000002                        never used, w/ driver disk 
> 
>                 VT320 Amber monitor                   TA927Y4967 (?)
> 59333248                             - in VERY GOOD condition - 
> 
>                 VRT19 Color monitor                      VRT19-HA Rev B01
> IS336820281                       very heavy (~78 lbs?) 
> 
>  . 
> 
>  
> 
> I cannot ship anything, if you can't pick it up at my house, you'll have to
> pay shipping. 
> 
>  
> 
> Let me know. 
> 
>  
> 
>  

From scaron at umich.edu  Wed May 13 09:20:36 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:20:36 -0400
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
In-Reply-To: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
References: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>

I had a DECpc 433 LPv (don't believe I remember this after almost 20 years
now, LOL) long ago ... decent enough machine for the time; 486DX/33, I
think it had maybe 4-8 megs of RAM in it, few hundred megs of IDE disk. No
onboard SCSI in mine, though I've seen other DECpc models that are more
reminiscent of the Personal DECstation or the VS 4000/VLC, etc. that may
have, of which you might be speaking. I can tell you from memory it ran
Linux great for the time, no hardware support issues whatsoever. :O

Best,

Sean


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I received a DECpc 433 Workstation today with SCSI expansion box. It's a
> small system which reminds me of the VAX VLC, but not quite.
>
> I've not been able to find any manuals online, does anyone have anything?
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 13 09:24:15 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
Message-ID: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

I have a very strong suspicion that the answer to this is going to be 'no',
but I figured I'd do due diligence and ask...

I have a backplane (one of the rodent barn group) which has a couple of finger
contacts in the backplane missing. (Two came out while I was cleaning it - and
I wasn't being hard on them, they must have been eaten away by the same kind
of chemical action that lifted traces off the boards.)

Is there any way to replace broken/missing finger contacts? I would _guess_
'no', since it looks like the backplane blocks (the things cast out of dark
green plastic, which looks like Bakelite - anyone know exactly what it is,
BTW?) are cast around them (since there's a wire-wrap pin on one side, and a
finger contact on the other).

If the answer _is_ 'no', no biggie - all except one are on one SPC slot, and
it's a 9-slot backplane, so we'd lose one SPC slot - not the end of the world.
The other pin is in the UNIBUS in/out area (1/9AB), _but_ the antique hardware
gods are smiling on us, it's a ground pin (of which the UNIBUS connector
pinout has multiple, so we can probably withstand the loss of one).

Thanks in advance for any help!


       Noel

From cae at ncia.net  Wed May 13 10:03:41 2015
From: cae at ncia.net (Willian)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:03:41 -0400
Subject: DEC equipment looking for a new home
In-Reply-To: <20150513140639.GC12319@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
References: <004001d08d82$2a892400$7f9b6c00$@earthlink.net>
 <20150513140639.GC12319@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.1.20150513110254.03539290@ncia.net>

Hi,

         Where are you located.

Thanks

Bill
At 10:06 a.m. 13/05/2015, you wrote:
>Where are you?
>
>* Dan Merrill <dan.merrill at earthlink.net> [150513 09:49]:
> > Here's the list of equipment.
> >
> >
> >
> > I also have the keyboards, mice, cables, media, manuals, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >                 Hardware                                            Model
> > Number                 Serial Number                   Comments
> >
> >
> >                 AXP 3000 Model 500S                     D5-PE500-AB
> > AB2420476G                       very heavy (~55 lbs?)
> >
> >                  (internal boards were static bagged separately from system
> > when moved from original location at work)
> >
> >                 MicroVAX 
> 3100                                 DV-31ATB-B-A01
> > KA037D0073                       - no other details -
> >
> >                 DEC Concentrator (FDDI)              DEFCN-BC
> > AS24103079                        1 - 4 Port card and cables
> >
> >                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
> > TA52900037                        never used, w/ driver disk
> >
> >                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
> > TA55000002                        never used, w/ driver disk
> >
> >                 VT320 Amber monitor                   TA927Y4967 (?)
> > 59333248                             - in VERY GOOD condition -
> >
> >                 VRT19 Color monitor                      VRT19-HA Rev B01
> > IS336820281                       very heavy (~78 lbs?)
> >
> >  .
> >
> >
> >
> > I cannot ship anything, if you can't pick it up at my house, you'll have to
> > pay shipping.
> >
> >
> >
> > Let me know.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>-----
>Se certifico que el correo no contiene virus.
>Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es
>Version: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9764 - Fecha de 
>la version: 05/13/2015


From scaron at umich.edu  Wed May 13 10:17:36 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:17:36 -0400
Subject: DEC equipment looking for a new home
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.1.20150513110254.03539290@ncia.net>
References: <004001d08d82$2a892400$7f9b6c00$@earthlink.net>
 <20150513140639.GC12319@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <7.0.0.16.1.20150513110254.03539290@ncia.net>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV5AOjhrtfQyrvqmOWViA+UpPTky4dSzWKJMYiVDOC0Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Echo on the location :O Also, it's not clear, you say you can't ship but
later say people must pay for shipping if unwilling or unable to pick up
... is it just, you won't ship for free, but you will ship if someone is
willing to pay (totally understandable)? Or just typo and no shipping is
available at all for this stuff (or just the lighter items)?

If you would be willing to ship the AXP and the 3100 I could probably
swallow that ... give these two systems good homes. My 3000/400 is acting
up so I could use another Alpha :O

I too have DEFPAs coming out of my ears ...PCI, dual-attach... If anyone
needs a few, I can hook you up; just drop me a line. I migrated to ATM ...
:O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Willian <cae at ncia.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>         Where are you located.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill
>
> At 10:06 a.m. 13/05/2015, you wrote:
>
>> Where are you?
>>
>> * Dan Merrill <dan.merrill at earthlink.net> [150513 09:49]:
>> > Here's the list of equipment.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I also have the keyboards, mice, cables, media, manuals, etc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >                 Hardware
>> Model
>> > Number                 Serial Number                   Comments
>> >
>> >
>> >                 AXP 3000 Model 500S                     D5-PE500-AB
>> > AB2420476G                       very heavy (~55 lbs?)
>> >
>> >                  (internal boards were static bagged separately from
>> system
>> > when moved from original location at work)
>> >
>> >                 MicroVAX 3100
>>  DV-31ATB-B-A01
>> > KA037D0073                       - no other details -
>> >
>> >                 DEC Concentrator (FDDI)              DEFCN-BC
>> > AS24103079                        1 - 4 Port card and cables
>> >
>> >                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
>> > TA52900037                        never used, w/ driver disk
>> >
>> >                 DEC FDDI Controller (PCI)             DEFPA-UA
>> > TA55000002                        never used, w/ driver disk
>> >
>> >                 VT320 Amber monitor                   TA927Y4967 (?)
>> > 59333248                             - in VERY GOOD condition -
>> >
>> >                 VRT19 Color monitor                      VRT19-HA Rev
>> B01
>> > IS336820281                       very heavy (~78 lbs?)
>> >
>> >  .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I cannot ship anything, if you can't pick it up at my house, you'll
>> have to
>> > pay shipping.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Let me know.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Se certifico que el correo no contiene virus.
>> Comprobada por AVG - www.avg.es
>> Version: 2014.0.4800 / Base de datos de virus: 4311/9764 - Fecha de la
>> version: 05/13/2015
>>
>
>

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 13 12:16:49 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:16:49 -0700
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
In-Reply-To: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <72E6685B-6359-4D84-9A94-4FB5DC5DEA37@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-13, at 7:24 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> I have a very strong suspicion that the answer to this is going to be 'no',
> but I figured I'd do due diligence and ask...
> 
> I have a backplane (one of the rodent barn group) which has a couple of finger
> contacts in the backplane missing. (Two came out while I was cleaning it - and
> I wasn't being hard on them, they must have been eaten away by the same kind
> of chemical action that lifted traces off the boards.)
> 
> Is there any way to replace broken/missing finger contacts? I would _guess_
> 'no', since it looks like the backplane blocks (the things cast out of dark
> green plastic, which looks like Bakelite - anyone know exactly what it is,
> BTW?) are cast around them (since there's a wire-wrap pin on one side, and a
> finger contact on the other).
> 
> If the answer _is_ 'no', no biggie - all except one are on one SPC slot, and
> it's a 9-slot backplane, so we'd lose one SPC slot - not the end of the world.
> The other pin is in the UNIBUS in/out area (1/9AB), _but_ the antique hardware
> gods are smiling on us, it's a ground pin (of which the UNIBUS connector
> pinout has multiple, so we can probably withstand the loss of one).


I don't know about DEC backplane connectors specifically - haven't dealt with them closely enough for those purposes, but speaking generally:

To my recollection, of the wide variety of edge connectors that I've seen, all have secured the pin in the housing via some deformation of the metal pin, post-insertion; as opposed to moulding the housing around the pin. It can be a pressed dimple in the pin, a slight crimp, or a twist. I'm looking at a wire-wrap edge connector right now in which the pins were twisted 90 degrees after being inserted into the housing, right where the pin comes through the housing. It can be quite subtle and one might need a magnifying glass to recognise what's going on. It is sometimes possible to do a reasonable job of replacing a pin (been there).

The problem in your situation of course, is getting the remainder of the pin out from between the edge connector housing and the backplane PCB without having to unsolder the entire connector. In the type of connector I'm looking at, if the pin broke at the 'right' place, it would be possible to pull one half out from the plug-in board side and pull the remainder out through the backplane PCB, and then insert a good pin from the plug-in board side, but I can't speak for whether that would be possible in the case of a DEC edge connector.


From pontus at update.uu.se  Wed May 13 13:31:26 2015
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 20:31:26 +0200
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
 <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5553987E.3050006@update.uu.se>

It's a funny little machine. It's as if it was not meant to have an 
internal disk drive. Perhaps if you sacrificed the floppy drive you 
could squeeze one in there. A small knob on the back to choose screen 
resolution. Only one ISA occupied by a monstrous graphics board parallel 
with the motherboard.

I'm most curious of a little "daughterboard" which seems to be some kind 
of upgrade, perhaps cache? Here is an auction of a motherboard/graphics 
card combo:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191577396617

Notice the blank PCB near the ISA slot, on my machine it's occupied by a 
populated board. What could it be?

I'm a little disappointed there is no room to fit a sound card. Would 
have made a great gaming machine.

Thanks,
Pontus.

On 05/13/2015 04:20 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I had a DECpc 433 LPv (don't believe I remember this after almost 20 years
> now, LOL) long ago ... decent enough machine for the time; 486DX/33, I
> think it had maybe 4-8 megs of RAM in it, few hundred megs of IDE disk. No
> onboard SCSI in mine, though I've seen other DECpc models that are more
> reminiscent of the Personal DECstation or the VS 4000/VLC, etc. that may
> have, of which you might be speaking. I can tell you from memory it ran
> Linux great for the time, no hardware support issues whatsoever. :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I received a DECpc 433 Workstation today with SCSI expansion box. It's a
>> small system which reminds me of the VAX VLC, but not quite.
>>
>> I've not been able to find any manuals online, does anyone have anything?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Pontus.
>>


From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May 13 13:36:34 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:36:34 -0600
Subject: Bell Labs TOPES
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGz1OxG7px092Q01RMLOyNcfceQaDEGsuFksA6SrMYOMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SFetODV+VFq3xExjVfDE6B4JMusJZ9vKY6NFvyoyZNTjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505122325580.23775@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>
 <CAFrGgTR0gtiNxHd=wXzgTT4QRNq2+qF4HMqHhDkgpeqxWJpoTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SGz1OxG7px092Q01RMLOyNcfceQaDEGsuFksA6SrMYOMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQk+5fX_zCLTBosu_gUvS0VnjfqHO6=RcMFm2dNNvXqZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 2:12 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> TOPES was used at least up until the divestiture. There was a
>> replacement system under development called MEGS, but I don't know
>> whether it was completed and deployed.
>
> According to a book that is partially online in Google Books, it was
> replaced by MUGS, "Mini Unix Graphics System," running on 11/780s or
> 3B20s.

Thanks! It's not surprising that I misremembered the acronym many
years later; it's more surprising that I remembered anything about it
at all, after having only heard about it once. I was given a tour of a
CO, and was able to talk to two engineers for about 20 minutes.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May 13 13:58:53 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:58:53 -0400
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
In-Reply-To: <72E6685B-6359-4D84-9A94-4FB5DC5DEA37@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <72E6685B-6359-4D84-9A94-4FB5DC5DEA37@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnHvaD1E0nuHJD0DPd1xHJTAmHCbv6Emx+2ygvTC86=cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> Is there any way to replace broken/missing finger contacts? I would _guess_
>> 'no', since it looks like the backplane blocks (the things cast out of dark
>> green plastic, which looks like Bakelite - anyone know exactly what it is,
>> BTW?) are cast around them (since there's a wire-wrap pin on one side, and a
>> finger contact on the other).
>>
>
> I don't know about DEC backplane connectors specifically - haven't dealt with them closely enough for those purposes, but speaking generally:

As Noel posted, these are cast blocks of plastic with embedded pins.
They are not like the solderable edge connectors you are accustomed to
where the body is formed then pins are inserted.  These are solid
blocks of thermo-setting plastic (i.e., it doesn't melt under new
heat, it chars and burns).  There are no tabs, no "catches", no way to
release a pin.

-ethan

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed May 13 14:43:22 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:43:22 -0400
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaXgrsOL64dyLgxZxcew0gPdLwFV_DfZHxdKCLjtrdg-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaXgrsOL64dyLgxZxcew0gPdLwFV_DfZHxdKCLjtrdg-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAPW2nPDKOLS2+e36F_3tYJP1VEh-h1fAnX=7WPQaN2KQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is the deskside "Firefox," VAX, right?  I think I have the xx40
version, in VMS-booting, working condition the last time it was powered on,
in storage and, assuming mine's not able to run a vintage unix of some
sort, would be interested in working with you, especially if you can help
supply my pdp11 projects.  I'm in western Pennsylvania.

--jake


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a VAXStation 3520 I'd like to upgrade a bit (because why not) -- if
> anyone has any spares they'd be willing to sell/trade for, let me know.
> I'm looking for additional memory (I have only 8mb) or an extra dual
> processor board (so I can have a quad-processor VAX, which sounds fun).
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Wed May 13 17:27:56 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:27:56 +1200
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jmskC4SqkpOBwjnKXRUN7Y02AVDZgtnyzduKoTNsYGBG0+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>
 <20150511171741.3DA0F404E6@smtp.hushmail.com>
 <CAM_jmskC4SqkpOBwjnKXRUN7Y02AVDZgtnyzduKoTNsYGBG0+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMnZ45L8j-OrATTSFqGOe34H1a_dJJz56jgZ12fA+Pe8g@mail.gmail.com>

That got me thinking:

"This is the DW8E-PC Omnibus Expansion Chassis.
The boards at the top convert the Posibus signals from the PDP-12 to
Omnibus signals on the backplane.
The Omnibus contains an LE8-FA LP01 controller, RK8-F RK05 controller,
and a PC8-E PC04 paper tape reader/punch controller.
It only supports one data-break controller per Omnibus.
If we add more flip-chips and then we could add an RX8E controller for
the RX02 floppies."

Or, if you *removed* the RK05 controller, could you substitute an RX8E
without modification?

A pdp-12 booting from a floppy disk would be an... interesting site to behold!

Mike

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Doug Ingraham
<dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Kirk B Davis <kirkbdavis at hush.com> wrote:
>
>> Pictures?? :-)
>>
>
> I assume you mean for the RI PDP-12.
>
> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12
>
> --
> Doug Ingraham
> PDP-8 SN 1175



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Wed May 13 18:05:40 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 16:05:40 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbMnZ45L8j-OrATTSFqGOe34H1a_dJJz56jgZ12fA+Pe8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <554FC2C4.2060403@update.uu.se>
 <CAM_jmsnLbh9iAryf9N5zGBK1zmGg_cSfFXJ99zqap0sFnF7VoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150511155744.GA6951@Update.UU.SE>
 <20150511171741.3DA0F404E6@smtp.hushmail.com>
 <CAM_jmskC4SqkpOBwjnKXRUN7Y02AVDZgtnyzduKoTNsYGBG0+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbMnZ45L8j-OrATTSFqGOe34H1a_dJJz56jgZ12fA+Pe8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0823BE003B73448EAA1FD67ABA222912@Vincew7>

From: Mike Ross: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 3:27 PM
> "This is the DW8E-PC Omnibus Expansion Chassis.
> The boards at the top convert the Posibus signals from the PDP-12 to
> Omnibus signals on the backplane.
> The Omnibus contains an LE8-FA LP01 controller, RK8-F RK05 controller,
> and a PC8-E PC04 paper tape reader/punch controller.
> It only supports one data-break controller per Omnibus.
> If we add more flip-chips and then we could add an RX8E controller for
> the RX02 floppies."
> 
> Or, if you *removed* the RK05 controller, could you substitute an RX8E
> without modification?

The RX8E isn't a data-break device, and I think it should "just work" 
on the pseudo-Omnibus.

    Vince 

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May 13 21:03:54 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:03:54 -0500
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
In-Reply-To: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150513142415.1B5B618C12D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5554028A.1040201@pico-systems.com>

On 05/13/2015 09:24 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> I have a very strong suspicion that the answer to this is going to be 'no',
> but I figured I'd do due diligence and ask...
>
> I have a backplane (one of the rodent barn group) which has a couple of finger
> contacts in the backplane missing. (Two came out while I was cleaning it - and
> I wasn't being hard on them, they must have been eaten away by the same kind
> of chemical action that lifted traces off the boards.)
>
> Is there any way to replace broken/missing finger contacts?
On some of the connectors, the pins are pressed in from the 
card side.  So, if you unsoldered or unwrapped the pin side, 
you could, in theory, press the remains of the old contact 
out and press in a new contact pin.  i sold a box of 50 
unused Winchester double-wide DEC connectors on eBay some 
years ago.  No idea where they are now.

Jon

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed May 13 21:40:11 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 19:40:11 -0700
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5D065B49BC864F7592412320B8121C81@workshop>


Boy, if you don't know, then who is... But this brings up another good
point, where to get the older CTuL logic IC bus drivers (the 9956 in
particular) besides from old boards? I'll probably need a few to make my own
I/O boards, else I'll have  make my own level converters out of SMD
components...
Marc

>From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
>Subject: HP board id?
>It seems over the years I acquired more than a just a few of these (two
>types of) boards for the HP1000. I'm pretty certain they all came from a
>batch of about twenty HP 1000 series systems I got that were decommissioned
>from military use. They do not seem to be HP in origin, and I don't have
>any
>clue what they are for. Mostly they seem to be stuffed with large numbers
>of
>op amps and some line drivers. Perhaps just flight line testing or ATP?
> If no one thinks these are of any use. they will be scavenged for bus 
> driver chips. But I'd hate to do that if they might be historical or
> "interesting".
>A few pictures of each board are at www.ezwind.net/hp-unk
>Educated guesses?



From jdbryan at acm.org  Wed May 13 22:20:46 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 23:20:46 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <5D065B49BC864F7592412320B8121C81@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <5D065B49BC864F7592412320B8121C81@workshop>
Message-ID: <E1Ysjhc-0008Hl-1N@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 19:40, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> ...where to get the older CTuL logic IC bus drivers (the 9956 in
> particular) besides from old boards? 

With the inclusion of a pulldown resistor to -2V, the TI SN75121 is a 
recommended replacement, per page 5-6 of the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series 
Computers I/O Interfacing Guide" (02109-90006 September 1980).  It's an 
active part:

  http://www.ti.com/product/sn75121

                                      -- Dave


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Thu May 14 00:46:12 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 01:46:12 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <E1Ysjhc-0008Hl-1N@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <5D065B49BC864F7592412320B8121C81@workshop>
 <E1Ysjhc-0008Hl-1N@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rsF0j9ZMMeB1tr-c20WNjk90zjhNwvxPSY2-bg3TK8YFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Very interesting.  What do they recommend on the receiver-end?

Is the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide" (02109-90006
September 1980) available online somewhere?

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:20 PM, J. David Bryan <jdbryan at acm.org> wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 19:40, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>
> > ...where to get the older CTuL logic IC bus drivers (the 9956 in
> > particular) besides from old boards?
>
> With the inclusion of a pulldown resistor to -2V, the TI SN75121 is a
> recommended replacement, per page 5-6 of the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series
> Computers I/O Interfacing Guide" (02109-90006 September 1980).  It's an
> active part:
>
>   http://www.ti.com/product/sn75121
>
>                                       -- Dave
>
>

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Wed May 13 12:38:45 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:38:45 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/44 avail, Landenberg, PA
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1431536400.88630.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1431536400.88630.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <c20abaa3fb9f490c816f611a924e7b58@buzz1.com>

Accepting best offer for a PDP 11/44 located in Landenberg, PA.  Pickup or 
your arrangements to have shipped ONLY.  I am not going to ship this thing. 
 I have not powered it on -  first I would need to remove the deteriorated 
foam behind the front grill and get a 220 adapter (i.e. clothes dryer 
plug).
  
 http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-44_2nd/
  
 The cabinet has a little rust on the outside but the computer backplane 
itself is in pretty nice shape and the module set appears complete.  The 
inside bottom of the cabinet is dirty but by and large it's pretty nice.  
The cabinet has two tape drive bays in the front and a tape drive inside 
that I assume to be inoperable, the capstan roller appears to be 
deteriorated.
  
 Happy to answer questions here but I prefer private contact/bids/questions 
to  - http://vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
  
 thanks
  
  
 Bill
  
  



From scaron at umich.edu  Wed May 13 15:50:09 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 16:50:09 -0400
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAPW2nPDKOLS2+e36F_3tYJP1VEh-h1fAnX=7WPQaN2KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaXgrsOL64dyLgxZxcew0gPdLwFV_DfZHxdKCLjtrdg-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfAPW2nPDKOLS2+e36F_3tYJP1VEh-h1fAnX=7WPQaN2KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUM=D4V9gqHJ1UuPWcpBvo2EmshWj0gWuPV7zKsz2Hk_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Complete working VS 3540? Awesome. Got 8-plane video in that, too? One of
you guys ought to take a good set of pictures; I remember long ago there
used to be a really neat site about the VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but
it's long gone ... It definitely gave me something to lust after when I was
in high school, LOL.

Best,

Sean


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

> This is the deskside "Firefox," VAX, right?  I think I have the xx40
> version, in VMS-booting, working condition the last time it was powered on,
> in storage and, assuming mine's not able to run a vintage unix of some
> sort, would be interested in working with you, especially if you can help
> supply my pdp11 projects.  I'm in western Pennsylvania.
>
> --jake
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a VAXStation 3520 I'd like to upgrade a bit (because why not) --
> if
> > anyone has any spares they'd be willing to sell/trade for, let me know.
> > I'm looking for additional memory (I have only 8mb) or an extra dual
> > processor board (so I can have a quad-processor VAX, which sounds fun).
> >
> > Thanks as always,
> > Josh
> >
>

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May 13 20:37:57 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 19:37:57 -0600
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>

>From the web page:
    "so it actually has two processors"

Is that true? I haven't had time to make a detailed study of the
PDP-12 logic design, but my understanding was that unlike the LINC-8,
which basically was two separate processors mashed together, the
PDP-12 was a single integrated processor with two modes (PDP-8 and
LINC). I was told that there were some commonalities that were taken
advantage of, such that merging it resulted in reduction of the total
logic necessary as compared to the LINC-8.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu May 14 02:52:08 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:52:08 +0100
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUM=D4V9gqHJ1UuPWcpBvo2EmshWj0gWuPV7zKsz2Hk_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaXgrsOL64dyLgxZxcew0gPdLwFV_DfZHxdKCLjtrdg-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfAPW2nPDKOLS2+e36F_3tYJP1VEh-h1fAnX=7WPQaN2KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUM=D4V9gqHJ1UuPWcpBvo2EmshWj0gWuPV7zKsz2Hk_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAArkeuiJ_VUL=Kwdsp5szFdvv45NJ-_hTsO_3JK0Q2CFndSkQw@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 May 2015 at 21:50, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Complete working VS 3540? Awesome. Got 8-plane video in that, too? One of
> you guys ought to take a good set of pictures; I remember long ago there
> used to be a really neat site about the VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but
> it's long gone ... It definitely gave me something to lust after when I was
> in high school, LOL.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > This is the deskside "Firefox," VAX, right?  I think I have the xx40
> > version, in VMS-booting, working condition the last time it was powered
> on,
> > in storage and, assuming mine's not able to run a vintage unix of some
> > sort, would be interested in working with you, especially if you can help
> > supply my pdp11 projects.  I'm in western Pennsylvania.
> >
> > --jake
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a VAXStation 3520 I'd like to upgrade a bit (because why not) --
> > if
> > > anyone has any spares they'd be willing to sell/trade for, let me know.
> > > I'm looking for additional memory (I have only 8mb) or an extra dual
> > > processor board (so I can have a quad-processor VAX, which sounds fun).
> > >
> > > Thanks as always,
> > > Josh
> > >
> >
>

I am lusting after one *now*.....

Regards

Rob

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Thu May 14 06:36:35 2015
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?B?SsO2cmcgSG9wcGU=?=)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 13:36:35 +0200
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
Message-ID: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>

Here's the opportunity to buy&save batches of DEC flip chip modules.
It must be several thousands, I estimate the total weight of the boxes 
to over 100kg.
Most are "red" logic series, but other colors are there too.
Apparently they are plugged from different machine types, maybe even 
PDP-10s or -12s.

Of course I'm greedy!

But while we have a PDP-12 and some DECtapes here, this amount is mostly 
useless and will occupy much precious space until the end of my days.

So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the community?
And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?

Thanks for your opinion,
Joerg

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 14 07:57:39 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:57:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP 11/44 avail, Landenberg, PA
Message-ID: <20150514125739.EC8BE18C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > Accepting best offer for a PDP 11/44 located in Landenberg, PA. 

Before Bill's mailbox explodes, he has listed this on eBay, and it will sell
there. (Note, he has it listed local pickup only.)

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 14 07:59:36 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:59:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
Message-ID: <20150514125936.5FE3918C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

    > I remember long ago there used to be a really neat site about the
    > VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but it's long gone ... 

Any chance you have the URL noted? If so, the WayBackMachine might still
have it.

	Noel

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Thu May 14 08:20:17 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 09:20:17 -0400
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
Message-ID: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>

 
 I decided to put the 11/44 on Ebay for $1, no reserve.   (currently at 
$40.39).
  
 New photos (what is on ebay plus what I took today after opening the 
cabinet to see what is in there)
 http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-44_2nd/
  
 Ebay listing
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-PDP-11-44-/271869650084
  
 Item is pickup only BUT If you can't pick it up but want to make 
arrangements to have a shipping company come to pick it up, pack and ship, 
I am happy to help but it's on you to make all of the arrangements.  I am 
available during the work day.
  
 Location - Landenberg, PA which is about 40 minutes South/west of 
Philadelphia, about 60 minutes North/east Baltimore, 10 miles or so from 
I95 at the MD/Delaware border.
  
 vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
  
 Bill
  
  



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu May 14 08:41:09 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 15:41:09 +0200
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>


On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 01:36:35PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
> 
> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the community?
> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?
> 

There has been a few sales on ebay, look for ended auctions. I suspect blue 
flip-chips from a PDP-10 has a higher collectible value.

Are you looking to get rid of the whole lot at once?

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu May 14 08:41:09 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 15:41:09 +0200
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>


On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 01:36:35PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
> 
> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the community?
> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?
> 

There has been a few sales on ebay, look for ended auctions. I suspect blue 
flip-chips from a PDP-10 has a higher collectible value.

Are you looking to get rid of the whole lot at once?

/P

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu May 14 10:17:19 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 11:17:19 -0400
Subject: A DIY card reader, FYA
References: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>
 <CAKUYOb1x2HDCkaUVNrnAUpUjwAJ6uN9W6gbJ50WXj1pfUyEZjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06BE5A07C85D4063A6FB30BF015B87BC@310e2>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christian Gauger-Cosgrove" 
<captainkirk359 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: A DIY card reader, FYA


> On 6 May 2015 at 13:52, Mike Stein 
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> <Mag card reader talk here trimmed for brevity.>
> That mag card reader sounds like you could 
> (possibly?) use it to read
> Selectric mag cards. Wasn't someone on here (or 
> maybe it was the
> Greenkeys list?) asking about reading Selectric 
> mag cards.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Christian

In theory, yes, mechanically these readers could 
probably read Selectric cards, but I believe at 
least one person on here (Mark Blair?) has a 
complete IBM mag card system, which would have a 
much greater chance of success.

m


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu May 14 10:36:12 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:36:12 -0500
Subject: A DIY card reader, FYA
In-Reply-To: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>
References: <5894BF883E4C404AAB9E5F00D720CE67@310e2>
Message-ID: <mailman.23.1431617786.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 12:52 PM 5/6/2015, Mike Stein wrote:
>This grew out of off-list correspondence about the
>card punch I'd mentioned on here recently;

Google "arduino punched card reader" and a number of options turn up.

- John


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May 14 10:46:29 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:46:29 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5554C355.2090504@pico-systems.com>

On 05/13/2015 08:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> >From the web page:
>      "so it actually has two processors"
>
> Is that true? I haven't had time to make a detailed study of the
> PDP-12 logic design, but my understanding was that unlike the LINC-8,
> which basically was two separate processors mashed together, the
> PDP-12 was a single integrated processor with two modes (PDP-8 and
> LINC). I was told that there were some commonalities that were taken
> advantage of, such that merging it resulted in reduction of the total
> logic necessary as compared to the LINC-8.
>
I'm pretty sure this is true, the amount of logic in the 
machine is not that much more than similar 12-bit CPUs.
The ALU had to handle both ones-complement and two's 
complement operations, and the instruction decode logic 
needed to be about double, but the data paths logic could 
all be done with one implementation.

I did use the PDP-12 at Washington University, and it was a 
real nice machine!

Jon

From evan at snarc.net  Thu May 14 14:19:06 2015
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 15:19:06 -0400
Subject: MARCH Straight-8 restoration
Message-ID: <5554F52A.3050507@snarc.net>

David Gesswein made some web pages about his work on MARCH's PDP-8:
http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe15/vcfe15.shtml
http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe15/restoration.shtml

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Thu May 14 16:21:24 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 14:21:24 -0700
Subject: HP board id?
Message-ID: <19f001d08e8b$eed8ac40$cc8a04c0$@gmail.com>

Dave,
Thanks a million! I did not know that. As for the receivers, it can go into
straight TTL apparently, I read that somewhere in an HP manual.
Marc

>From: "J. David Bryan" <jdbryan at acm.org>
>> ...where to get the older CTuL logic IC bus drivers (the 9956 in
>> particular) besides from old boards? 

>With the inclusion of a pulldown resistor to -2V, the TI SN75121 is a
recommended replacement, per page 5-6 of the 
>"HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide" (02109-90006
September 1980).  It's an active part:
> http://www.ti.com/product/sn75121
>                                      -- Dave




From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu May 14 18:07:13 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 18:07:13 -0500
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de> <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22i30unwvAZDEa4ckUGOWY=sJMmKyEjqYkCxJnZ8zFO_Q@mail.gmail.com>

perhaps some people need to go catilog this stuff

From jdbryan at acm.org  Thu May 14 21:52:00 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 22:52:00 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <19f001d08e8b$eed8ac40$cc8a04c0$@gmail.com>
References: <19f001d08e8b$eed8ac40$cc8a04c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Yt5jF-0003Ld-0U@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 14:21, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> Thanks a million!

You're welcome.


> As for the receivers, it can go into straight TTL apparently, I read
> that somewhere in an HP manual.

Both TTL and LSTTL (but not STTL or HTTL) will work with an appropriate 
pulldown resistor.  LSTTL is recommended for the lower power and improved 
speed over TTL.  The pulldowns are necessary to guarantee logic zeros when 
driven by the original CTuL or newer 75121 parts, which have open-emitter 
outputs.

Section 5-7, "Computer Backplane Assembly Requirements," of the 
aforementioned interfacing manual details the recommended circuits.

                                      -- Dave


From gerardcjat at free.fr  Fri May 15 13:11:57 2015
From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 20:11:57 +0200
Subject: old control data drives 
Message-ID: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>

Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??

---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
http://www.avast.com

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 15 13:37:25 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 11:37:25 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
Message-ID: <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com>

On 05/15/2015 11:11 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
> Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??

Didn't the poster say Denver, CO?



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri May 15 14:41:24 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 14:41:24 -0500
Subject: altair lot available
Message-ID: <000001d08f47$2115ef40$6341cdc0$@classiccmp.org>

I got a private email (I suspect many of you did too) regarding a sizeable
altair setup (and other accoutrements) being offered up out of an estate
sale.

 

>From a quick scan, I don't see that this made it to the list. Just in case,
I'm reposting brief info here and a link for more info.

 

Email:

Hi,

You are receiving this e-mail due to interest expressed as a collector, on
theantiquecomputer.com.

Please find attached a word document with the information and details of
this Altair 8800 Estate Lot. More photos available.

Also, please pass this information to anyone who may be interested.

Thank You

Dan

 

Dan Tharp

EcycleNW

dan at ecyclenw.com

ecyclenw at msn.com

 

Also - the attached file (which I cant send to the list, I don't allow
attachments) has been placed at http://www.ezwind.net/altair

It is a word document, but it has embedded pictures and such.

 

Best,

 

J


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Fri May 15 14:43:22 2015
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 19:43:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: NYT writer wants to write about creative collectors
Message-ID: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>



I received this email - contact Alex below if interested:


===================================================================

I'm a reporter for the New York Times and I'm working on a story about vintage tech/computer equipment, particularly when used as items to be displayed, or as home-decor. 

Do you know have any collectors of vintage tech who have used it in any creative way as objects around the house? 

If you have any thoughts on the topic, I'm all ears. Thanks!

-- 
Alex Williams
Reporter
The New York Times
212 556 1158
===================================================================

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri May 15 16:14:26 2015
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 09:14:26 +1200
Subject: Checkerboard pattern on a Mac Plus
Message-ID: <CACaZngnnAZ7MMduvXQ0zNn8F4KCK+fo0u4q=rZvtiYfsduskkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Posting this for those that might be interested...

No it wasn't capacitors. This time it was something else.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-05-14-mac-plus-checkerboard.htm

Terry (Tez)

From sellam at vintagetech.com  Fri May 15 18:04:05 2015
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam ibn Abraham)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 16:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Paging Wayne Smith
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1505151603170.20201@vintagetech.com>


Forgive the interruption...

I am trying to get a hold of Wayne Smith.  I sent him an e-mail a couple 
days ago but he has not responded.  Is he lurking here?  If so, please 
contact me.

Thank you!

--

Sellam ibn Abraham                                                 VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  The truth is always simple.


                           * * * NOTICE * * *

    Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has
    been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered 
    reliable for any purpose either express or implied.  The contents of
    this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational 
    purposes only.  The right of the people to be secure in their papers
    against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

From jws at jwsss.com  Fri May 15 20:41:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 18:41:10 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>



On 5/15/2015 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/15/2015 11:11 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
>> Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??
>
> Didn't the poster say Denver, CO
The original of this never made it thru to me, can someone forward it?

thanks
jim


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri May 15 20:58:18 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 18:58:18 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com> <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-15, at 6:41 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
> On 5/15/2015 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 05/15/2015 11:11 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
>>> Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??
>> 
>> Didn't the poster say Denver, CO
> The original of this never made it thru to me, can someone forward it?
> 
> thanks
> jim


The original message is here:
	http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-May/006636.html

Or search for "control data" in the archive (thread messages are in two sets):
	http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-May/thread.html

Be interesting to hear what happens to them if anyone finds out.
We've presumed they are the 60s-era tape drives, CD didn't reuse the 604 number later for some model of disk drive did they?



From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Fri May 15 21:06:33 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 21:06:33 -0500
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com> <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
 <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <58AA0CE3-43E1-463E-A661-DCDD0976350C@gmail.com>

The OP did forward out some pics and they are the 60's drives, but I believe the location is California rather than Denver. Hope somebody saves them!  -Cory


On May 15, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2015-May-15, at 6:41 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
>> On 5/15/2015 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> On 05/15/2015 11:11 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
>>>> Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??
>>> 
>>> Didn't the poster say Denver, CO
>> The original of this never made it thru to me, can someone forward it?
>> 
>> thanks
>> jim
> 
> 


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri May 15 21:16:58 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 22:16:58 -0400
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <58AA0CE3-43E1-463E-A661-DCDD0976350C@gmail.com>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com> <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
 <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>
 <58AA0CE3-43E1-463E-A661-DCDD0976350C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcq+FkL1tYLtdFHZYnBBEJUZyBQcd0xLY1heN+DLO0=8g@mail.gmail.com>

I was talking to the guy, and then nothing....

If you are put there, please respond...

--
Will
On May 15, 2015 10:06 PM, "Cory Heisterkamp" <coryheisterkamp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The OP did forward out some pics and they are the 60's drives, but I
> believe the location is California rather than Denver. Hope somebody saves
> them!  -Cory
>
>
> On May 15, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
> > On 2015-May-15, at 6:41 PM, jwsmobile wrote:
> >> On 5/15/2015 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>> On 05/15/2015 11:11 AM, GerardCJAT wrote:
> >>>> Do we know where theses drives are ( located ) ??
> >>>
> >>> Didn't the poster say Denver, CO
> >> The original of this never made it thru to me, can someone forward it?
> >>
> >> thanks
> >> jim
> >
> >
>
>

From eallen at owt.com  Fri May 15 21:44:57 2015
From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 19:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: NYT writer wants to write about creative collectors
In-Reply-To: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.00.1505151943360.17233@oneworld.owt.com>



On Fri, 15 May 2015, steven stengel wrote:

> Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 12:43:22
> From: steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: NYT writer wants to write about creative collectors
> 
> 
> 
> I received this email - contact Alex below if interested:
> 
> 
> ===================================================================
> 
> I'm a reporter for the New York Times and I'm working on a story about vintage tech/computer equipment, particularly when used as items to be displayed, or as home-decor. 
> 
> Do you know have any collectors of vintage tech who have used it in any creative way as objects around the house? 
> 
> If you have any thoughts on the topic, I'm all ears. Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> Alex Williams
> Reporter
> The New York Times
> 212 556 1158
> ===================================================================
> 

Reminds me of "All your base are belong to us."

--E
	 


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 15 22:56:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 20:56:50 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com> <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
 <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <5556C002.5020502@sydex.com>

On 05/15/2015 06:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> We've presumed they are the 60s-era tape drives, CD didn't reuse the 604 number later for some model of disk drive did they?

No.  Generally, the old CDC stuff followed the scheme of 2xx = 
terminals/displays 4xx = card equipment, 6xx = tape equipment, 8xx disks.

I left CDC somewhat after the time the 66x tapes came out.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 16 00:34:32 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 22:34:32 -0700
Subject: old control data drives
In-Reply-To: <5556C002.5020502@sydex.com>
References: <25841CEED03A405F85A1909013A1B4D2@medion>
 <55563CE5.6070900@sydex.com> <5556A036.4080606@jwsss.com>
 <3395D95C-FFD1-452A-AE25-2A7406604420@cs.ubc.ca> <5556C002.5020502@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5556D6E8.2070807@sydex.com>

One more category springs to mind--5xx would be printers (e.g. 501 and 
512).  Maybe I;m trying to forget about what it was like having a 
machine gun on one side (501 drum printer) and a screaming banshee (512 
train printer) on the other side.

8xx also includes drum storage.

I was never close to the Intercom/EI200 scene, so I talk to the RJE and 
comms stuff.  While I could stare at the IGS people fooling with their 
big radar-screen displays, I'm not terribly familiar with the graphics 
stuff either.

--Chuck



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat May 16 06:29:27 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 12:29:27 +0100
Subject: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
Message-ID: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>

I picked up an Olivetti M24 the other day. When I opened it up I found a
"Fox Research LAN Interface" dated 1984. I have not been able to find any
information on this card. It has a make DE-9 connector with only 3 pins
(technically does that make it a DE-3?). Can anyone give me any details of
this interface?

 

The machine does not have the expansion board, and it is missing one of the
floppy disk drives. It also does not have a hard disk controller. If anyone
has any of these bits going spare I would love to hear from you.

 

Thanks

 

Rob


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May 16 06:48:10 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 07:48:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
Message-ID: <20150516114810.3956418C16B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    >> it looks like the backplane blocks .. are cast around them

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    > all have secured the pin in the housing via some deformation of the metal
    > pin, post-insertion; as opposed to moulding the housing around the pin.

    > From: Ethan Dicks

    > these are cast blocks of plastic with embedded pins.

    > From: Jon Elson

    > On some of the connectors, the pins are pressed in from the card side.

There appears to be some question as to whether thyy are cast in place,
or inserted.

Actually, I started to wonder about my assertion shortly after I posted it,
and took another look at the backplane. The thing is that the hollows that
the finger contact pins are in are fairly complicated (since they allow the
contact pins to move back and forth, but hold them from going too far), and
I'm really wondering if it would be possible to cast that shape, and then
remove the mold, and also have the pin in there. So I'm wondering if in fact
they weren't inserted post-casting.

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    > The problem in your situation of course, is getting the remainder of
    > the pin out from between the edge connector housing and the backplane
    > PCB without having to unsolder the entire connector.

Well, I'm kind of assuming they are inserted from the edge-connector side,
and not the wira-wrap pin side (what with the contact pins being bent, etc on
the edge-connector side), If they _were_ inserted from the wire-wrap pin
side, I'm totally @&@^$#%@&^, there's no way to get that PCB off now.

So in theory, at least, I'd have to de-solder them from the PCB and then try
and push the remaining part back through (after identifying and defeating
whatever the capture mechanism is - which I might not be able to reach with
the PCB in the way). And then I'd have to find replacement pins and put them
in. Both of those sound non-trivial.

(All assuming, of course, that they are inserted post-casting, and not
cast into place... still not sure about that.)


This has assumed a little extra urgency as on closer examination, some of the
pins in the UNIBUS in-out area are clearly very weak - I imagine there's only
a tiny bit of metal holding the contact pin in place, and it could break off
any time. And I won't be so lucky as to have them all be ground pins..

So if one breaks off, the backplane is toast (unless it's the the last thing
on the UNIBUS, it could be kludged - i.e. attach the termination/ pull-up
directly to the wire-wrap pin).

Which I guess is not the end of the world - DD11's aren't _that_ rare...

	Noel

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat May 16 07:41:53 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 14:41:53 +0200
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
In-Reply-To: <5553987E.3050006@update.uu.se>
References: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
 <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5553987E.3050006@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE=UkHw4+LpThUfJi0rJRpJ4NHO6L-RNTiqiEuCf0kwsA@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 May 2015 at 20:31, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> I'm a little disappointed there is no room to fit a sound card. Would have
> made a great gaming machine.


I had -- probably still have -- one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Audioman-Compact-Digital-Audio/dp/B009A2WL7O

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 16 11:57:18 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 11:57:18 -0500
Subject: UNIBUS backplane finger contact repair
In-Reply-To: <20150516114810.3956418C16B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150516114810.3956418C16B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22fjBwTR7Bezu5UXSSt5f3o4Zdr6UcRu+UBQkXxVv6PuA@mail.gmail.com>

the fingers are cast in place or least they are on the 8i backplane
i know this cause i have a bucket of smashed up bits from the 8i i found..

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:48 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     >> it looks like the backplane blocks .. are cast around them
>
>     > From: Brent Hilpert
>
>     > all have secured the pin in the housing via some deformation of the
> metal
>     > pin, post-insertion; as opposed to moulding the housing around the
> pin.
>
>     > From: Ethan Dicks
>
>     > these are cast blocks of plastic with embedded pins.
>
>     > From: Jon Elson
>
>     > On some of the connectors, the pins are pressed in from the card
> side.
>
> There appears to be some question as to whether thyy are cast in place,
> or inserted.
>
> Actually, I started to wonder about my assertion shortly after I posted it,
> and took another look at the backplane. The thing is that the hollows that
> the finger contact pins are in are fairly complicated (since they allow the
> contact pins to move back and forth, but hold them from going too far), and
> I'm really wondering if it would be possible to cast that shape, and then
> remove the mold, and also have the pin in there. So I'm wondering if in
> fact
> they weren't inserted post-casting.
>
>     > From: Brent Hilpert
>
>     > The problem in your situation of course, is getting the remainder of
>     > the pin out from between the edge connector housing and the backplane
>     > PCB without having to unsolder the entire connector.
>
> Well, I'm kind of assuming they are inserted from the edge-connector side,
> and not the wira-wrap pin side (what with the contact pins being bent, etc
> on
> the edge-connector side), If they _were_ inserted from the wire-wrap pin
> side, I'm totally @&@^$#%@&^, there's no way to get that PCB off now.
>
> So in theory, at least, I'd have to de-solder them from the PCB and then
> try
> and push the remaining part back through (after identifying and defeating
> whatever the capture mechanism is - which I might not be able to reach with
> the PCB in the way). And then I'd have to find replacement pins and put
> them
> in. Both of those sound non-trivial.
>
> (All assuming, of course, that they are inserted post-casting, and not
> cast into place... still not sure about that.)
>
>
> This has assumed a little extra urgency as on closer examination, some of
> the
> pins in the UNIBUS in-out area are clearly very weak - I imagine there's
> only
> a tiny bit of metal holding the contact pin in place, and it could break
> off
> any time. And I won't be so lucky as to have them all be ground pins..
>
> So if one breaks off, the backplane is toast (unless it's the the last
> thing
> on the UNIBUS, it could be kludged - i.e. attach the termination/ pull-up
> directly to the wire-wrap pin).
>
> Which I guess is not the end of the world - DD11's aren't _that_ rare...
>
>         Noel
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 16 14:23:12 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 12:23:12 -0700
Subject: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
In-Reply-To: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>
References: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>

On 05/16/2015 04:29 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> I picked up an Olivetti M24 the other day. When I opened it up I found a
> "Fox Research LAN Interface" dated 1984. I have not been able to find any
> information on this card. It has a make DE-9 connector with only 3 pins
> (technically does that make it a DE-3?). Can anyone give me any details of
> this interface?

I believe that that's an old 10Net card--essentially a 1Mbit protocol 
over twisted pair.  Popular briefly in the 80s mostly because it claimed 
to be secure.

Maybe there are protocol converters out there, but they'd probably be 
pretty scarce.

--Chuck


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May 16 15:49:45 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 16:49:45 -0400
Subject: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
In-Reply-To: <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>
References: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>
 <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <B0429C43-9AEF-421A-A557-031ABAE14214@comcast.net>


> On May 16, 2015, at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/16/2015 04:29 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
>> I picked up an Olivetti M24 the other day. When I opened it up I found a
>> "Fox Research LAN Interface" dated 1984. I have not been able to find any
>> information on this card. It has a make DE-9 connector with only 3 pins
>> (technically does that make it a DE-3?). Can anyone give me any details of
>> this interface?
> 
> I believe that that's an old 10Net card--essentially a 1Mbit protocol over twisted pair.  Popular briefly in the 80s mostly because it claimed to be secure.

Secure by obscurity, or was there some actual basis for that claim?

	paul



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat May 16 16:14:49 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 23:14:49 +0200
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE=UkHw4+LpThUfJi0rJRpJ4NHO6L-RNTiqiEuCf0kwsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
 <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5553987E.3050006@update.uu.se>
 <CAMTenCE=UkHw4+LpThUfJi0rJRpJ4NHO6L-RNTiqiEuCf0kwsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150516211449.GA15386@Update.UU.SE>

Weird thing. Not Sound Blaster co.patinle I presume?

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 02:41:53PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 13 May 2015 at 20:31, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> > I'm a little disappointed there is no room to fit a sound card. Would have
> > made a great gaming machine.
> 
> 
> I had -- probably still have -- one of these:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Audioman-Compact-Digital-Audio/dp/B009A2WL7O
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From bpettitx at comcast.net  Sat May 16 16:50:48 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 14:50:48 -0700
Subject: Old Control Data Drives
Message-ID: <390AAD2F661D4989B8F626AF93BE3CA2@RosemarysPC>


Chuck Guzis wrote:

One more category springs to mind--5xx would be printers (e.g. 501 and 
512).  Maybe I;m trying to forget about what it was like having a 
machine gun on one side (501 drum printer) and a screaming banshee (512 
train printer) on the other side.

8xx also includes drum storage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To add a little more: 1XX was test equipment; 3XX was paper tape equipment; 7XX was interconnect gear.

Later the numbers were changed to an elaborate code that used 2 Alphanumerics a dash, 3 more alpha numerics.  This was later modified to include another dash and alphanumeric.  For example, a disk drive might be: BJ-3A4-C.

There is a model decoder somewhere on bitsavers.

And there was a whole family of unique specially designed  peripherals called SPAM boxes = Special Purpose Alogrithm Machines.  These were usually all electronic.  Most were used in the oil industry; for example strip recorders/readers for seismic data.

One I worked on a lot when in Houston, would add up all the one bits in a large field of data.  For some applications, the petrol companies loved it.

Inital telecommunication products started here then evolved into their own families.

Chuck,  I'll swap you for the time I was at CERN working on 627 (one inch) tape drives and some idiot rewound 24 of them at the same time.  It was a gag they pulled on new operators.  It could take an hour before you could hear people talk again.

Billy Pettit


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 16 17:27:47 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 15:27:47 -0700
Subject: Old Control Data Drives
In-Reply-To: <390AAD2F661D4989B8F626AF93BE3CA2@RosemarysPC>
References: <390AAD2F661D4989B8F626AF93BE3CA2@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <5557C463.7060200@sydex.com>

On 05/16/2015 02:50 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:

> Chuck,  I'll swap you for the time I was at CERN working on 627 (one
> inch) tape drives and some idiot rewound 24 of them at the same time.
> It was a gag they pulled on new operators.  It could take an hour
> before you could hear people talk again.

Running the Navy Audit tests for COBOL had a "short record" test that 
could get pretty loud, but I thought it was pretty cool, particularly if 
you left the door down.

Shades of "Anchors Aweigh".... :)

What really got on my nerves, though, was the machine floor at SVLOPS. 
You could have 6 or more machines on the same floor, high ceilings, and 
cinderblock walls with no sound absorbing anywhere.  Lots of white 
noise, I think, mostly from the tape drive vacuum pumps.  After about 4 
or 5 hours, you could find yourself shaking.  Eventually management 
started distributing earplugs (the Sorbothane yellow spongy ones).  That 
helped a lot.  You really did have to raise your voice quite a bit to be 
heard by a the guy standing 3 feet away.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 16 17:31:51 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 15:31:51 -0700
Subject: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
In-Reply-To: <B0429C43-9AEF-421A-A557-031ABAE14214@comcast.net>
References: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>
 <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>
 <B0429C43-9AEF-421A-A557-031ABAE14214@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5557C557.6040605@sydex.com>

On 05/16/2015 01:49 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Secure by obscurity, or was there some actual basis for that claim?

The company, ISTR, was founded by an ex-CIA guy, so maybe that had 
something to do with it.

10Net software could run on pretty much any hardware (I think there was 
a version for DEC equipment) but Fox's big market success was in the 
"cheap net PC area.  You could get a kit with a card, cable and software 
for less than $200, which was a bargain back then.

They were eventually purchased by DCA.

--Chuck



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May 16 10:56:54 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 08:56:54 -0700
Subject: 8/12 DECUS library, was PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <20150516131958.GA18226@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
References: <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>
 <20150516131958.GA18226@hugin2.pdp8online.com>
Message-ID: <555768C6.4010509@bitsavers.org>

On 5/16/15 6:19 AM, David Gesswein wrote:

> I assume then that it still exists and hopefully will make it online
> at some time. Do you have any knowledge of its current status?
>

It is in the queue to be read. CHM just purchased a third building located
in Fremont that my office and lab will be moving to, along with the software
and document collections.
I'm hoping to have the media recovery lab up and running again
in the fall. I am totally consumed right now with getting ready for the move.





From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Thu May 14 08:53:40 2015
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 06:53:40 -0700
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <5554A8E4.20209@sbcglobal.net>

On 5/14/2015 4:36 AM, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
> Here's the opportunity to buy&save batches of DEC flip chip modules.
> It must be several thousands, I estimate the total weight of the boxes 
> to over 100kg.
> Most are "red" logic series, but other colors are there too.
> Apparently they are plugged from different machine types, maybe even 
> PDP-10s or -12s.
>
> Of course I'm greedy!
>
> But while we have a PDP-12 and some DECtapes here, this amount is 
> mostly useless and will occupy much precious space until the end of my 
> days.
>
> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the 
> community?
> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?
>
> Thanks for your opinion,
> Joerg
>
You can search ebay for seller: trailer426f 
<http://www.ebay.com/usr/trailer426f?_trksid=p2047675.l2559>

He has some 100's of R series over the years. Many sell for between $10 
and $20

There is definitely interest, I have bought more that 30 from him.

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From billdeg at buzz1.com  Thu May 14 09:57:06 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:57:06 -0400
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>

 
 >
> That's a neat system. Too far away for me to consider buying, but I'm 
still enjoying the pictures.
>
> The rust looks scary.. I hope that the PCBs aren't badly corroded. That 
would be my biggest worry as a potential buyer of the system. I see some 
signs of rodent nibbles on ribbon cables inside the tape drive, but those 
are easily replaced.
>
> I wonder what that lower card cage is for? It's not for the internal TU58 
tape drive, which is self-contained and uses a plain async serial port.
>
> I think this will be a cool project for the auction winner.
>
> --
 
 Good question - not sure what the card cage is used for, I was not 
expecting to see one in there when I opened it today.  Fortunately the 
computer itself is not corroded like the card cage in the bottom of the 
cabinet.  Worst case you can remove the 11/44 from the cabinet entirely.
 Bill



From billdeg at buzz1.com  Thu May 14 10:55:30 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 11:55:30 -0400
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
 <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
 <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <953b09104e7e498084175f08738ae677@buzz1.com>

>
> I think the cabinet is worth retaining and restoring. In my limited 
experience, it's easier to find naked DEC computer units than it is to find 
them in their original rack cabinets. The internal TU58 is also worth 
restoring, even if the drives and/or controller board need to be replaced.
>
> --
 
 And, it's not that bad really, the pics expose the problems / rust so 
people get the full story.  Hires photos always make something look worse 
than it really is.
 b



From scaron at umich.edu  Thu May 14 09:27:29 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 10:27:29 -0400
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <20150514125936.5FE3918C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150514125936.5FE3918C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV_A9cBwMBSoWCQSBNFug0LOzHeVBpqs2YL2uLPXH=e4Q@mail.gmail.com>

It's still linked off VAXarchive actually but the URL has been dead for
many years -

http://conan.ids.net/~mikeu/vs35x0.html

Haven't checked the Wayback Machine; good idea.

And I'm with ya, Rob, I'd still love to have one someday :O

Best,

Sean


On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>     > I remember long ago there used to be a really neat site about the
>     > VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but it's long gone ...
>
> Any chance you have the URL noted? If so, the WayBackMachine might still
> have it.
>
>         Noel
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu May 14 09:53:09 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 07:53:09 -0700
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>

That's a neat system. Too far away for me to consider buying, but I'm still enjoying the pictures.

The rust looks scary.. I hope that the PCBs aren't badly corroded. That would be my biggest worry as a potential buyer of the system. I see some signs of rodent nibbles on ribbon cables inside the tape drive, but those are easily replaced.

I wonder what that lower card cage is for? It's not for the internal TU58 tape drive, which is self-contained and uses a plain async serial port.

I think this will be a cool project for the auction winner.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From scaron at umich.edu  Thu May 14 10:22:45 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 11:22:45 -0400
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkV_A9cBwMBSoWCQSBNFug0LOzHeVBpqs2YL2uLPXH=e4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150514125936.5FE3918C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAA43vkV_A9cBwMBSoWCQSBNFug0LOzHeVBpqs2YL2uLPXH=e4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUQ8Cb8C3m9cqTYAJTyxnoKr+Fpg+rYOD7gc_89O+RcuA@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to pull it back from 1999 and now I remember one of the things
that I found so neat about it; the 24 bitplane graphics option ...
considering the late 80s vintage of the machine ... that would have been
fairly exotic ... are either of your systems so outfitted? It would be neat
to see the board set ... does anyone know if it is at all similar to the
VCB02 or was it a totally clean-sheet design? It would be neat to see the
quality of the 24-bit video.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> It's still linked off VAXarchive actually but the URL has been dead for
> many years -
>
> http://conan.ids.net/~mikeu/vs35x0.html
>
> Haven't checked the Wayback Machine; good idea.
>
> And I'm with ya, Rob, I'd still love to have one someday :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>     Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>     > I remember long ago there used to be a really neat site about the
>>     > VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but it's long gone ...
>>
>> Any chance you have the URL noted? If so, the WayBackMachine might still
>> have it.
>>
>>         Noel
>>
>
>

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Thu May 14 10:28:03 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:28:03 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>

On Wed, 13 May 2015 19:37:57 -0600
Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> >From the web page:
>     "so it actually has two processors"
> 
> Is that true? I haven't had time to make a detailed study of the
> PDP-12 logic design, but my understanding was that unlike the LINC-8,
> which basically was two separate processors mashed together, the
> PDP-12 was a single integrated processor with two modes (PDP-8 and
> LINC). I was told that there were some commonalities that were taken
> advantage of, such that merging it resulted in reduction of the total
> logic necessary as compared to the LINC-8.

I owned a PDP-12 for years. I bought it directly from DEC shortly after
it went out of production for $3,000!

My PDP-12 had 12Kw of RAM, an RF08 (2x256K) disk, dual TU56 Linctapes,
TC08 and TU55, ASR-33 and ADM-3 terminals, 9-track reel to reel mag
tape. In addition, because I wanted really high speed paper tape, I
created an interface to a Tally 1000cps PT reader and high speed punch.

I was the last official DECUS Coordinator for the PDP-12, so my PDP-12
was used to copy the contents of the DECUS PDP-8 and PDP-12 libraries to
all of the different media using my PDP-12. I still have some of the
"DECUS dollars" that were used to make refunds to users. They could
subsequently use those "DECUS dollars" to purchase future copies. (DECUS
had standard copy charges for different types of media).

I donated my PDP-12 with all it's peripherals and the complete PDP-8 and
PDP-12 DECUS libraries to the Computer History Museum around 1996.

That library also contains the only known master copy of the DIAL OS
source code. DIAL was an OS that ran in LINC mode on the PDP-12.
Shortly after DEC shutdown production of the PDP-12, they offered me
the master source, since they were not planning to continue support of
DIAL.

Regarding the question about number of "processors" in the PDP-12:

The PDP-12 does NOT have two processors. As Eric suggested, it was a
single integrated processor with two instruction sets - PDP-8 and LINC.
Much of the logic was shared between the two.

When in PDP-8 mode, a single instruction would put the 12 into LINC mode
and vice versa.

Cheers,
Lyle
-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu May 14 10:30:37 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 08:30:37 -0700
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
 <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>


> On May 14, 2015, at 07:57, B Degnan <billdeg at buzz1.com> wrote:
> 
> Good question - not sure what the card cage is used for, I was not 
> expecting to see one in there when I opened it today.  Fortunately the 
> computer itself is not corroded like the card cage in the bottom of the 
> cabinet.  Worst case you can remove the 11/44 from the cabinet entirely.

I think the cabinet is worth retaining and restoring. In my limited experience, it's easier to find naked DEC computer units than it is to find them in their original rack cabinets. The internal TU58 is also worth restoring, even if the drives and/or controller board need to be replaced.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jdbryan at acm.org  Thu May 14 10:31:32 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 11:31:32 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <CAJj77rsF0j9ZMMeB1tr-c20WNjk90zjhNwvxPSY2-bg3TK8YFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <E1Ysjhc-0008Hl-1N@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
 <CAJj77rsF0j9ZMMeB1tr-c20WNjk90zjhNwvxPSY2-bg3TK8YFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Ysv6i-0000dk-Qy@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:46, Paul Birkel wrote:

> What do they recommend on the receiver-end?

LSTTL with a 4.7K pulldown to -2V on the input.


> Is the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide"
> (02109-90006 September 1980) available online somewhere? 

I thought I had sent it to Al some years ago, but it's not listed.  In any 
case, I've posted it here:

  http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/02109-90006_Sep-1980.7z

See chapter 5, pages 5-5 and 5-6.

                                      -- Dave


From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Thu May 14 10:49:13 2015
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 09:49:13 -0600
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsmFAqGfbYz6-puZjO3da3d=Y7k8AsbjqYcLOa9NZPQ3fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:36 AM, J?rg Hoppe <j_hoppe at t-online.de> wrote:

> Here's the opportunity to buy&save batches of DEC flip chip modules.
> It must be several thousands, I estimate the total weight of the boxes to
> over 100kg.
> Most are "red" logic series, but other colors are there too.
> Apparently they are plugged from different machine types, maybe even
> PDP-10s or -12s.
>

<snip>


> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the
> community?
> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?
>

I have managed over the years to obtain most of the spares I need for my
straight 8.  For those A, B, G, R, and S type modules I still don't have I
am willing to pay as much as $30 with shipping each.  Of course paying less
is always better.  And the really rare cards I would of course pay more
for.  Even cards with missing parts or defect tags are valuable for the
parts that are still there.

The first thing you probably should do is inventory what you have and put
it up on a website as available for sale or trade.  I should probably put
up a website with a list of what I an looking for.

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May 14 11:37:58 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 12:37:58 -0400
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
 <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
 <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnKbMLtnFBVq+ZJVNR3=+010F4O+gA9LPoi1b5UV8GONQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> On May 14, 2015, at 07:57, B Degnan <billdeg at buzz1.com> wrote:
>>
>> Good question - not sure what the card cage is used for, I was not
>> expecting to see one in there when I opened it today.  Fortunately the
>> computer itself is not corroded like the card cage in the bottom of the
>> cabinet.  Worst case you can remove the 11/44 from the cabinet entirely.

I would definitely recommend keeping the cabinet.  The 11/44 really
wants to be in that exact cabinet vs a generic 19" rack.

I didn't see any pics of the lower card cage, but I wonder if it's an
SI9900 or similar.  I saw there are two cards of an "SI controller" on
the Unibus.  What Systems Industries did was to have a host controller
(Unibus, Qbus, CMI bus...) and a pair of 40-pin cables to a generic SI
controller that worked with everything, that also had individual SMD
or other disk interfaces.  I've worked with the SI9900 on a couple of
boxes.  For our 11/750, it acted like a DEC controller for RM03 and
RM05-type disks, and even used the same driver, but unless you had
certain models of SMD disk that exactly matched DEC-supplied drives,
you had to patch the drive geometry table each time there was a new
release of VMS (we had a Fujitsu Eagle that was like an RM05 but
larger, so we had to use the patched driver.  We also had a 160MB Fuji
drive that was exactly like two RM03s so we could boot from them with
no trouble).  I don't know a lot about Systems Industries on PDP-11,
but it has to be similar.  That controller might resemble an RH-11 or
something DECish.  You just need drives (and cables) to suit.

-ethan

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May 14 14:01:50 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 14:01:50 -0500
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <953b09104e7e498084175f08738ae677@buzz1.com>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
 <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
 <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
 <953b09104e7e498084175f08738ae677@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPj4aawYm6qZ_XyxTOHxqnXO1rsKOYnWkRaCmw=5tbAcA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bill,

The box on the bottom looks like a BA11-KE expansion box with two  9 slot
backplanes it in. Since the 11/44 has a few DD11-CKs in it, the ones down
below might be for mass storage like a RH11, RK611, TM02 or 3, etc.

Might be worth checking it out. It could up the value some.

Paul

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:55 AM, B Degnan <billdeg at buzz1.com> wrote:

> >
> > I think the cabinet is worth retaining and restoring. In my limited
> experience, it's easier to find naked DEC computer units than it is to find
> them in their original rack cabinets. The internal TU58 is also worth
> restoring, even if the drives and/or controller board need to be replaced.
> >
> > --
>
>  And, it's not that bad really, the pics expose the problems / rust so
> people get the full story.  Hires photos always make something look worse
> than it really is.
>  b
>
>
>

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Thu May 14 20:16:12 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 21:16:12 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <E1Ysv6i-0000dk-Qy@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.1.1431536400.88630.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <E1Ysjhc-0008Hl-1N@elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <CAJj77rsF0j9ZMMeB1tr-c20WNjk90zjhNwvxPSY2-bg3TK8YFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ysv6i-0000dk-Qy@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAJj77rshDxM8KTzEivF8crumhSjN0UXhwdqooPxWz97TCZ0-rA@mail.gmail.com>

That is a *really* nice document, in so many ways.  Thanks for sharing, and
for the answers to earlier questions :->.

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 11:31 AM, J. David Bryan <jdbryan at acm.org> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:46, Paul Birkel wrote:
>
> > What do they recommend on the receiver-end?
>
> LSTTL with a 4.7K pulldown to -2V on the input.
>
>
> > Is the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide"
> > (02109-90006 September 1980) available online somewhere?
>
> I thought I had sent it to Al some years ago, but it's not listed.  In any
> case, I've posted it here:
>
>   http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/02109-90006_Sep-1980.7z
>
> See chapter 5, pages 5-5 and 5-6.
>
>                                       -- Dave
>
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May 14 20:26:23 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 20:26:23 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <CAH1BU=-uo5waz0EP5C3eHQyCzALPzvbiDvifoq4pPhme_=KCOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTRYWoSagDpC0DMqmYatmmVNcw0JUwrgge+OpTh7dLtnAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <55554B3F.4020000@pico-systems.com>

On 05/14/2015 10:28 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2015 19:37:57 -0600
> Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >From the web page:
>>      "so it actually has two processors"
>>
>> Is that true? I haven't had time to make a detailed study of the
>> PDP-12 logic design, but my understanding was that unlike the LINC-8,
>> which basically was two separate processors mashed together, the
>> PDP-12 was a single integrated processor with two modes (PDP-8 and
>> LINC). I was told that there were some commonalities that were taken
>> advantage of, such that merging it resulted in reduction of the total
>> logic necessary as compared to the LINC-8.
> I owned a PDP-12 for years. I bought it directly from DEC shortly after
> it went out of production for $3,000!
>
> My PDP-12 had 12Kw of RAM, an RF08 (2x256K) disk, dual TU56 Linctapes,
> TC08 and TU55, ASR-33 and ADM-3 terminals, 9-track reel to reel mag
> tape. In addition, because I wanted really high speed paper tape, I
> created an interface to a Tally 1000cps PT reader and high speed punch.
>
> I was the last official DECUS Coordinator for the PDP-12, so my PDP-12
> was used to copy the contents of the DECUS PDP-8 and PDP-12 libraries to
> all of the different media using my PDP-12.
Ahh, that explains all the drives!

I was the local DECUS librarian in the St. Louis area, 
mostly for VAX stuff.  I got some CDC Keystone 9-track
1600/6250 tape drives at a surplus shop, and did the tape 
copying in my home basement.

I wrote a program that could read a tape and put it in a 
container file format on disk, and then spool off copies to 
tape at full streaming speed.

Jon

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May 15 14:52:00 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 15:52:00 -0400
Subject: NYT writer wants to write about creative collectors
In-Reply-To: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX=b6GRi9+2B5e6PrYMruKfMf2o8KJTZm0z3xkTUQs_ww@mail.gmail.com>

As far as vintage tech goes, I like to decorate each room in my home with
its own unique old telephone set ... but I promised my SO that all the
computers stay in the basement :O

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 3:43 PM, steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> I received this email - contact Alex below if interested:
>
>
> ===================================================================
>
> I'm a reporter for the New York Times and I'm working on a story about
> vintage tech/computer equipment, particularly when used as items to be
> displayed, or as home-decor.
>
> Do you know have any collectors of vintage tech who have used it in any
> creative way as objects around the house?
>
> If you have any thoughts on the topic, I'm all ears. Thanks!
>
> --
> Alex Williams
> Reporter
> The New York Times
> 212 556 1158
> ===================================================================
>

From Paul_Koning at Dell.com  Fri May 15 15:14:13 2015
From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 20:14:13 +0000
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
Message-ID: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>

A correspondent just pointed me to a nice collection of photos of a (the?) 11/74 MP system:

http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html

I assume this is the one at DEC used by the RSX-11M+ group for their multiprocessor support work.  As far as I know these didn?t become a product.  I remember the name of the machine as ?Cerberus?, not sure what that label ?daemon? refers to.  Maybe a DECnet node name?

	paul

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May 15 17:34:52 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 18:34:52 -0400
Subject: Checkerboard pattern on a Mac Plus
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnnAZ7MMduvXQ0zNn8F4KCK+fo0u4q=rZvtiYfsduskkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnnAZ7MMduvXQ0zNn8F4KCK+fo0u4q=rZvtiYfsduskkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWET=3HhU02ZNVcjcwYkRdFRVdsaHjdM_k60Q=_MnCbqg@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, the ole cold solder joint, cause of many problems ... interesting to
see that failure mode, though; my first guess would have been something on
the digital board... I've got an old Plus here myself, as well as an old
128/512 with a [failed] DoveSnap ... I hadn't powered either of them up in
well over 15 years and I was surprised that both of them came right up with
practically no problems; perfect display, no Sad Mac ... the floppy on the
Plus is stuck in looping eject mode but I understand that is a fairly
common fault for those drives of that vintage that has known fix ...

Honestly I could do to clear either or both of those systems out ... they
are mostly just taking up floor space ... I have a complete, mint condition
Mac SE FDHD that fills that niche for me :O Much easier to work with
something that's got a Superdrive in it, and the built in hard drive is a
real space-saver ... anyone interested in some old Macs near Ann Arbor, MI?
Drop me a line and you can stop by and grab them sometime :O No keyboards
or mice incl.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Terry Stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>
wrote:

> Posting this for those that might be interested...
>
> No it wasn't capacitors. This time it was something else.
>
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-05-14-mac-plus-checkerboard.htm
>
> Terry (Tez)
>

From djg at pdp8online.com  Sat May 16 08:19:58 2015
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 09:19:58 -0400
Subject: 8/12 DECUS library, was PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM 
In-Reply-To: <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150514082803.1de8aaba@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <20150516131958.GA18226@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 08:28:03AM -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote:
> 
> I donated my PDP-12 with all it's peripherals and the complete PDP-8 and
> PDP-12 DECUS libraries to the Computer History Museum around 1996.
> 
All the rumors I had heard said they were lost. This is good to hear.
Was this both the writeups and the programs?

If I read the history right 1996 was when what is now called the CHM in
California was started. Is that where it was donated?

I assume then that it still exists and hopefully will make it online
at some time. Do you have any knowledge of its current status?


From rich.cini at verizon.net  Sat May 16 11:12:49 2015
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 12:12:49 -0400
Subject: FW: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"
In-Reply-To: <BLU170-W5271575F9458159D4F09E4BAC60@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT407-EAS2211F537AD3245D34203FBDC9C70@phx.gbl>
 <BLU170-W5271575F9458159D4F09E4BAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D17CE3F4.14F62%rich.cini@verizon.net>

All ? 

I thought I would pass the attached on to the group. Please let me know if
the attachment (Word doc) doesn?t come through and I?ll send it separately
to those interested. I received the attached email, unsolicited. Looks like
two complete Altair systems for sale for $7,000, with offers considered. No
location is given in the listing but the area code points to Washington
State (Olympia??).


Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From:  Richard Cini <rcini at msn.com>
Date:  Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:54 AM
To:  Richard A Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>
Subject:  FW: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"




From: ecyclenw at msn.com
To: ecyclenw at msn.com
Subject: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:32:57 +0000

Hi,
You are receiving this e-mail due to interest expressed as a collector, on
theantiquecomputer.com.
Please find attached a word document with the information and details of
this Altair 8800 Estate Lot. More photos available.
Also, please pass this information to anyone who may be interested.
Thank You
Dan

Dan Tharp
EcycleNW
dan at ecyclenw.com
ecyclenw at msn.com 
 
Sent from Windows Mail

       



From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Sat May 16 17:59:19 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 18:59:19 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb19E1s1gVG+_CpTi-5pBJaTqt_F7OfFHHsZ5z2bQLTjVw@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 May 2015 at 16:14,  <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
> A correspondent just pointed me to a nice collection of photos of a (the?) 11/74 MP system:
>
> http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html
>
I heard it was supposedly called Phoneix (PHEANX as DECnet node name).
And yes, that is one of the 11/74 systems, and that is the RSX-11/M+
group's machine, from what I recall of previous discussions of it.

It's interesting to see the different names that the 11/74 could have
had as a product painted on the machine(s). I also recall somewhere
that one of the other names it could have had was 11/72. (I think for
a dual processor configuration?)


It's neat that the newest version of RSX-11/M+ still supports the
11/74 (try it on E-11).


Cheers,
Christian

-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sat May 16 18:40:32 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 00:40:32 +0100
Subject: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
In-Reply-To: <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>
References: <001001d08fcb$91b81dc0$b5285940$@ntlworld.com>
 <55579920.3020409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <000001d09031$b324b930$196e2b90$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
Guzis
> Sent: 16 May 2015 20:23
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Olivetti M24 LAN Interface
> 
> On 05/16/2015 04:29 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > I picked up an Olivetti M24 the other day. When I opened it up I found
> > a "Fox Research LAN Interface" dated 1984. I have not been able to
> > find any information on this card. It has a make DE-9 connector with
> > only 3 pins (technically does that make it a DE-3?). Can anyone give
> > me any details of this interface?
> 
> I believe that that's an old 10Net card--essentially a 1Mbit protocol over
> twisted pair.  Popular briefly in the 80s mostly because it claimed to be
secure.
> 
> Maybe there are protocol converters out there, but they'd probably be
pretty
> scarce.
> 
> --Chuck


Can't say I had ever heard of 10Net before. And searching for it doesn't
turn up much. Just as you say converters would be hard to find, I suspect
finding software will be non-trivial too.

Still, the M24 itself seems to work reasonably well, although I think the
keyboard may need some attention as some of the characters don't seem to
register very well, hopefully just the contacts that need cleaning.

Regards

Rob 


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sat May 16 19:49:49 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 19:49:49 -0500
Subject: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"
In-Reply-To: <D17CE3F4.14F62%rich.cini@verizon.net>
References: <SNT407-EAS2211F537AD3245D34203FBDC9C70@phx.gbl>
 <BLU170-W5271575F9458159D4F09E4BAC60@phx.gbl>
 <D17CE3F4.14F62%rich.cini@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001201d0903b$61b02b70$25108250$@classiccmp.org>

I posted about this here a few days earlier.... document about the holdings
is at http://www.ezwind.net/altair

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard
Cini
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 11:13 AM
To: MARCH-Post; CCTalk
Subject: FW: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"

All ? 

I thought I would pass the attached on to the group. Please let me know if
the attachment (Word doc) doesn?t come through and I?ll send it separately
to those interested. I received the attached email, unsolicited. Looks like
two complete Altair systems for sale for $7,000, with offers considered. No
location is given in the listing but the area code points to Washington
State (Olympia??).


Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From:  Richard Cini <rcini at msn.com>
Date:  Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:54 AM
To:  Richard A Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net>
Subject:  FW: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"




From: ecyclenw at msn.com
To: ecyclenw at msn.com
Subject: Altair 8800 Electrical Engineer Estate "lot"
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:32:57 +0000

Hi,
You are receiving this e-mail due to interest expressed as a collector, on
theantiquecomputer.com.
Please find attached a word document with the information and details of
this Altair 8800 Estate Lot. More photos available.
Also, please pass this information to anyone who may be interested.
Thank You
Dan

Dan Tharp
EcycleNW
dan at ecyclenw.com
ecyclenw at msn.com 
 
Sent from Windows Mail

       




From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sat May 16 20:35:42 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 21:35:42 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
Message-ID: <4b56a.5ccaefc5.42894a6e@aol.com>

Many Thanks for the HP 1000  interface board manual...  We have  the old  
one here at the museum   with the   2115, 2116  etc    but it has  gotten 
brittle on the  back  binding and  if  we  do not have to open  it.......
 
At one  time  when we  would building voice boards  to  the 2000/1000 
series  back then  we  had scored a batch  of   blank  IO  proto boards with the 
buss   tag  traces   on  them.. be interesting to see if   I  saved any...
 
Thanks !  Ed#   _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 
 
 
In a message dated 5/16/2015 3:42:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pbirkel at gmail.com writes:

That is  a *really* nice document, in so many ways.  Thanks for sharing,  
and
for the answers to earlier questions :->.

On Thu, May 14,  2015 at 11:31 AM, J. David Bryan <jdbryan at acm.org> wrote:

> On  Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 1:46, Paul Birkel wrote:
>
> > What  do they recommend on the receiver-end?
>
> LSTTL with a 4.7K  pulldown to -2V on the input.
>
>
> > Is the "HP 1000  M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide"
> > (02109-90006  September 1980) available online somewhere?
>
> I thought I had  sent it to Al some years ago, but it's not listed.  In 
any
> case,  I've posted it here:
>
>    http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/02109-90006_Sep-1980.7z
>
>  See chapter 5, pages 5-5 and 5-6.
>
>          --  Dave
>
>


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat May 16 20:49:18 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 18:49:18 -0700
Subject: Looking for VAXStation 3520 parts
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkUQ8Cb8C3m9cqTYAJTyxnoKr+Fpg+rYOD7gc_89O+RcuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150514125936.5FE3918C14D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAA43vkV_A9cBwMBSoWCQSBNFug0LOzHeVBpqs2YL2uLPXH=e4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkUQ8Cb8C3m9cqTYAJTyxnoKr+Fpg+rYOD7gc_89O+RcuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5557F39E.10608@gmail.com>

On 5/14/15 8:22 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I was able to pull it back from 1999 and now I remember one of the things
> that I found so neat about it; the 24 bitplane graphics option ...
> considering the late 80s vintage of the machine ... that would have been
> fairly exotic ... are either of your systems so outfitted? It would be neat
> to see the board set ... does anyone know if it is at all similar to the
> VCB02 or was it a totally clean-sheet design? It would be neat to see the
> quality of the 24-bit video.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean

The Graphics option in the 3520/40 is its own beast, as far as I know.  
It's definitely not the same as the VCB02.  I have heard (but have not 
confirmed) that it has its own VAX CPU chip (same as used in the 
MicroVAX II?) driving it, and with the 24-bit option it's three boards 
connected together via a small daughterboard in front. I'll take some 
pictures when I have some time this weekend or next week.

And just a quick update on my "in search of" status; it looks like I've 
found everything.  JT Computers on eBay had a number of 3520/40 boards 
listed for mostly ridiculous prices (a 32mb board for $270, for example) 
but a friend of mine has recently gotten some stuff from them cheap by 
making a lowball offer so I made some offers and got 32mb of RAM, a 
second dual-CPU board and the 24-bit graphics expansion for a reasonable 
price.  (They still have an 8mb board and a dual CPU board left, last I 
checked.)

The CPU and RAM arrived today and are working fine, the graphics board 
arrives next week.  VMS is up and running, and I'm trying out OpenBSD 
just to see how it runs (NetBSD doesn't support this thing, amazingly 
enough :)).  I was going to try Ultrix but it seems to switch over to 
the graphics console even though I'm using the serial console (see below).

Now I just need to build the keyboard / mouse cable so I can actually 
*use* the graphics; the connector on this, despite being a DB-15 is not 
pin-compatible with any of the other 15-pin keyboard/mouse/graphics 
cables (the BC18 for the VS2000, for example, which I have a couple 
of...) so I need to build an adapter.

- Josh


>
>
> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> It's still linked off VAXarchive actually but the URL has been dead for
>> many years -
>>
>> http://conan.ids.net/~mikeu/vs35x0.html
>>
>> Haven't checked the Wayback Machine; good idea.
>>
>> And I'm with ya, Rob, I'd still love to have one someday :O
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>      Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>      > I remember long ago there used to be a really neat site about the
>>>      > VAXstation 3520/3540 machines but it's long gone ...
>>>
>>> Any chance you have the URL noted? If so, the WayBackMachine might still
>>> have it.
>>>
>>>          Noel
>>>
>>


From shumaker at att.net  Sat May 16 22:32:18 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 20:32:18 -0700
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
Message-ID: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>

I'm looking for a tool to do a bunch of 3.5 floppy imaging using a linux 
or a windows box.... Media is all early PC stuff.    Any thoughts, 
comments, tools of choice?
Is IMD the format of choice for these as well or is there something else 
for the newer formats?


Steve

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sun May 17 00:39:36 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 06:39:36 +0100
Subject: Old Control Data Drives
In-Reply-To: <5557C463.7060200@sydex.com>
References: <390AAD2F661D4989B8F626AF93BE3CA2@RosemarysPC>
 <5557C463.7060200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55582998.2000609@btinternet.com>

Back in the 1970's there was a large Bank in London who had a big 
machine room  full of line printers knocking out statements.
It was staffed by deaf people who 'talked' with hand signs.

Rod


On 16/05/2015 23:27, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/16/2015 02:50 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
>
>> Chuck,  I'll swap you for the time I was at CERN working on 627 (one
>> inch) tape drives and some idiot rewound 24 of them at the same time.
>> It was a gag they pulled on new operators.  It could take an hour
>> before you could hear people talk again.
>
> Running the Navy Audit tests for COBOL had a "short record" test that 
> could get pretty loud, but I thought it was pretty cool, particularly 
> if you left the door down.
>
> Shades of "Anchors Aweigh".... :)
>
> What really got on my nerves, though, was the machine floor at SVLOPS. 
> You could have 6 or more machines on the same floor, high ceilings, 
> and cinderblock walls with no sound absorbing anywhere. Lots of white 
> noise, I think, mostly from the tape drive vacuum pumps.  After about 
> 4 or 5 hours, you could find yourself shaking.  Eventually management 
> started distributing earplugs (the Sorbothane yellow spongy ones).  
> That helped a lot.  You really did have to raise your voice quite a 
> bit to be heard by a the guy standing 3 feet away.
>
> --Chuck
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May 17 00:47:56 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 05:47:56 +0000
Subject: NYT writer wants to write about creative collectors
In-Reply-To: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <741282618.1274488.1431719002581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C39C6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> I received this email - contact Alex below if interested:
> 
> 
> ===================================================================
> 
> I'm a reporter for the New York Times and I'm working on a story about vintage tech/computer equipment, 
> particularly when used as items to be displayed, or as home-decor.
> 
> Do you know have any collectors of vintage tech who have used it in any creative way as objects around the 
> house?
> 
> If you have any thoughts on the topic, I'm all ears. Thanks!
> 
> --
> Alex Williams
> Reporter
> The New York Times
> 212 556 1158
> ===================================================================

OK ,my house is full of vintage computers (and I really need to re-arrange some of them...) but I do not 
regard them as decorative objects. They are computers -- to run programs. As I have said here before,
an HP9830, or a PDP11, or... remains an interesting machine if the boards and backplane are just sitting
on the bench, or are somehow mounted in a wooden box. An empty HP9380 or PDP11 case is of little
interest (other than as a part of a restoration project). What the machines look like is of very little
concern to me.

I suspect a number of people here have similar interests.

-tony

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Sat May 16 18:35:50 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 16:35:50 -0700
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
Message-ID: <CACTnH8uPOGBkPAadkBW2_wxRksf99WKu-g4DXgwy6XSWLU1dQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi *Dave Mabry,*

*I have an Intel MDS-225 that I'm getting up and running.  I have quite a
bit of experience with these from back in 1980's when I developed a lot of
Intel SBC boards and wrote ASM-80 assembler on the MDS. I have a complete
double density dual drive Intel disk for it and will be up and running
ISIS-II on this soon.*

*What parts, software are you looking for? What do you have to sell?*

*Richard Main 510-229-9711*

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Sat May 16 18:43:37 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 16:43:37 -0700
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
Message-ID: <CACTnH8sv7cgCP3PpmbX23_mBDYi2tfmZUw7+j29wdD4N+LA1uw@mail.gmail.com>

The 8041 has the same pinout as the Intel 8741 programmable. A Pro-Log M980
PROM Programmer with a PM 9054 personality module can read out the programs
inside.

I did a lot of Intel 8741 Development back in the day and even reverse
engineered the PIO in an Intel MDS-225.  I have a MDS-225 now I'm getting
going from pieces.

Richard Main
+1 510-229-9711
Newark, CA USA

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Sat May 16 18:58:25 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 16:58:25 -0700
Subject: 8257 use in Intel MDS IOC
Message-ID: <CACTnH8schmk2f9NnB-eadusS+90gHNZ-db4AgbBMRCAij_hHSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Eric,

I reverse engineered the Intel IOC in my MDS-225 back in 1980 and
designed/programmed the Zendex equivalent. Your project sounds interesting.

I just got a MDS-225 in pieces that I'm getting fired up with DD dual 8"
floppies and ISIS-II.

Got any parts or need any parts?

Richard Main
Newark, CA USA
+1 510-229-9711

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Sat May 16 19:22:14 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 17:22:14 -0700
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
Message-ID: <CACTnH8t4OMW9vZnn3aCvqQ=Zv5q=ni4nVZyo+M-cpbcjDVYUxA@mail.gmail.com>

F.Ulivi,


I have an MDS-225 on a breadboard for easy access.  I bought it in
pieces and now getting it going. I believe I may be able to dump all
the EPROMS in my Pro-Log M980 and het hexfiles over USB-232 to my
WINDOWS laptop to email to you.


I just got the Intel 2708 personality module for the Pro-Log and not
sure its working.


On the built in CRT, Intel used the Ball Brothers TV120 with an early
VGA interface. It is TTL with /VERT, HORIZ, and VIDEO. You can wire up
a modern DB25 VGA monitor to the IOC and hook each of R G B through
270 ohm resistors to IOC VIDEO. maybe need to invert the vertical
sync.


Richard



I'm looking for the images of ROMs installed on the IOC (I/O controller)
board of Intel MDS-2 development systems. In particular I'm looking for
the content of the character generator ROM (A19-2708) and of firmware
ROMs (A50 to A53-4x2716). So far I had no success in googling them.
My goal would be to contribute a good emulation of MDS systems to MESS,
especially for what regards the look of the video terminal. Well, this
is the plan, when "real-life" is not inteferring too much...



*Richard Brewster Main, Esq.*

*Of Counsel*Main Cafe
invention & patent development

Newark, CA 94560
+1 408 409 6246
http://www.maincafe.us/

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: E-mail may contain *attorney-client confidential
information* that is legally privileged. Do not read this e-mail if you are
not the intended recipient. This e-mail transmission, and any documents,
files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential
information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to
this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this
transmission in error, delete it, please immediately notify us by reply
e-mail to mainpatents at gmail.com or contacting us by telephone at
408-409-6246

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Sat May 16 19:28:20 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 17:28:20 -0700
Subject: Intellec MDS available in Twin Cities MN
Message-ID: <CACTnH8uTY8iYWnu1-de+_77B9GtL7R65KzgvDSTFDOm7UbeRJg@mail.gmail.com>

Am I too late? Still available for sale?

Richard

I really need some cash and some space, so it's time for my Intel Intellec
MDS gear to find a new home. I inherited this kit some years ago, and know
almost nothing about it - in fact, I'm even confused as to the correct
model number; 'experts disagree', it's either an MDS-225 or MDS-800.

It's a large white cube, about 20" on a side, with a CRT, one 8" floppy and
a number of plug-in boards. There is also a blue Intel dual 8" drive, one
seriously heavy-duty keyboard, a few cables and a bevy of 8" floppy discs.
I also have an ICE pod for it, somewhere..

It has never been powered-up once since I've had it, though it was
apparently 'working fine' when retired sometime in the early-mid 1990s.
Cosmetics are very good, it's no ugly duckling by any stretch.

Photos will appear as I'm able to move it to a location with sufficient
light.



*Richard Brewster Main, Esq.*

*Of Counsel*Main Cafe
invention & patent development

Newark, CA 94560
+1 408 409 6246
http://www.maincafe.us/

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: E-mail may contain *attorney-client confidential
information* that is legally privileged. Do not read this e-mail if you are
not the intended recipient. This e-mail transmission, and any documents,
files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential
information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to
this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this
transmission in error, delete it, please immediately notify us by reply
e-mail to mainpatents at gmail.com or contacting us by telephone at
408-409-6246

From supervinx at libero.it  Sun May 17 02:06:52 2015
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 09:06:52 +0200
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
Message-ID: <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>

Il giorno sab, 16/05/2015 alle 20.32 -0700, steve shumaker ha scritto:
> I'm looking for a tool to do a bunch of 3.5 floppy imaging using a linux 
> or a windows box.... Media is all early PC stuff.    Any thoughts, 
> comments, tools of choice?
> Is IMD the format of choice for these as well or is there something else 
> for the newer formats?
> 
> 
> Steve
If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
it's dirty work...
But dd doesn't handle defective errors, it stops there.
So you can try ddrescue also.

The resulting image is a sector copy of the disk, and it can be used in
Dosbox or other DOS emulation systems.

If the disks have unusual format, protection schemes, it would be better
to set up a pure DOS machine (no VMs like Windows DOS boxes) and use IMD
or the proprietary format Teledisk.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun May 17 03:16:28 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 10:16:28 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
Message-ID: <20150517081627.GA17086@Update.UU.SE>

That system blows my mind. I wonder how it would have been to maintain.

Did any bits survive? I think I've seen a front panel on CHMs web site.

/P

On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 08:14:13PM +0000, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
> A correspondent just pointed me to a nice collection of photos of a (the?) 11/74 MP system:
> 
> http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html
> 
> I assume this is the one at DEC used by the RSX-11M+ group for their multiprocessor support work.  As far as I know these didn?t become a product.  I remember the name of the machine as ?Cerberus?, not sure what that label ?daemon? refers to.  Maybe a DECnet node name?
> 
> 	paul

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 04:54:08 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:54:08 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
Message-ID: <55586540.5040901@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-15 22:14, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
> A correspondent just pointed me to a nice collection of photos of a (the?) 11/74 MP system:
>
> http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html

Ah, yes. Those are the photos from Dave Carroll. I've send the original 
link several times in the past. They are on Google, and there are links 
on that page to them.

> I assume this is the one at DEC used by the RSX-11M+ group for their multiprocessor support work.  As far as I know these didn?t become a product.  I remember the name of the machine as ?Cerberus?, not sure what that label ?daemon? refers to.  Maybe a DECnet node name?

Sortof. The M+ group had a system called CASTOR, which was in MA. This 
was a 4-cpu system. The DECnet group also had an 11/74, but a 2-CPU 
system. I don't remember for sure, but I think that was POLLUX (And yes, 
these were the DECnet node names on EASYnet.) Finally, I *think* that 
field service also had an 11/74. I don't know how many CPUs. This 
machine might have had a name based on Cerberus.

At some point in the early 90s, the existing/remaining 11/74 components 
were all shipped to Colorado Springs, where a new 4-CPU system was put 
together. This system was then used by Dave Carroll for further RSX 
development, and it was called PHEANX (the only free spelling of Phoenix 
still available, and the reason for Phoenix should be somewhat obvious). 
It remained in service until 2000, when it developed a hardware problem. 
It was dismantled some time after that, and Dave took these pictures 
shortly before the dismantling.
(It I remember/understood things right.)

	Johnny


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun May 17 05:10:33 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 06:10:33 -0400
Subject: HP board id?
Message-ID: <beddd.528c5a02.4289c319@aol.com>

Dave - - actually there  should be a  scan  out it out there  already...  
it is of the  same  vintage as the hp minicomputer  handbook with the old  
hp-2115  on the   front....
Here I  found a  link  to the early version!   just  enter any  word in the 
   human checker thing and  you can download the pdf!   there are other  hp 
2000  things   there  too at that   main url

http://www.hpmuseum.net/capcha/freecap_wrap.php?r=1124
 
 
posting  the   cc also to  rest of   list   for those  that would  like 
this  also...
 
Yea  our old  one  if   we opened it  to flat  bed scan it  it  would be a 
sheaf of  lose pages I   fear...  but this  pdf  should  be  good   for  
info.
 
We  love  HP 2000 stuff here  it was  part of   my  work in the old  days  
fixing and selling therm  and  selling time on them.  We still have our  
first  2000  system  we  bought  but we NEED THE 2883  disk  drive  and the hp 
version of the GE terminet 300  to put  with it.
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC   _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)   
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/16/2015 11:27:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jdbryan at acm.org writes:

Hi  Ed,


On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 21:35, COURYHOUSE at aol.com  wrote:

> Many Thanks for the HP 1000  interface board manual...  

You're welcome.


> We have  the old one here at the  museum   with the   2115, 2116  etc  
>  but it has  gotten brittle on the  back  binding and   if  we  do not
> have to open it....... 

Maybe open it  one more time to scan it?

-- Dave



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun May 17 06:18:31 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:18:31 +0200
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
Message-ID: <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 17.05.15 um 09:06 schrieb supervinx:
> If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
> it's dirty work...
> But dd doesn't handle defective errors, it stops there.
Have a look at the dd(1) options "noerror" and "sync".
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 06:18:51 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:18:51 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <CAKUYOb19E1s1gVG+_CpTi-5pBJaTqt_F7OfFHHsZ5z2bQLTjVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
 <CAKUYOb19E1s1gVG+_CpTi-5pBJaTqt_F7OfFHHsZ5z2bQLTjVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5558791B.2030206@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 00:59, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
> On 15 May 2015 at 16:14,  <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
>> A correspondent just pointed me to a nice collection of photos of a (the?) 11/74 MP system:
>>
>> http://oboguev.livejournal.com/2696291.html
>>
> I heard it was supposedly called Phoneix (PHEANX as DECnet node name).
> And yes, that is one of the 11/74 systems, and that is the RSX-11/M+
> group's machine, from what I recall of previous discussions of it.

Sortof. It's from Dave Carroll, and the 11/74 at Colorado Springs. This 
was PHEANX. It was after the RSX group didn't exist anymore, and whay 
gathered what remained of 11/74 systems into the Colorado Springs site, 
since that is where all PDP-11 stuff went finally at DEC, before it 
moved over to Mentec.

> It's interesting to see the different names that the 11/74 could have
> had as a product painted on the machine(s). I also recall somewhere
> that one of the other names it could have had was 11/72. (I think for
> a dual processor configuration?)

I've seen/heard some reference to 11/72, but all the papers from DEC on 
PDP-11 MP systems called them 11/74 that I can remember. No matter how 
many CPUs was in the system.

> It's neat that the newest version of RSX-11/M+ still supports the
> 11/74 (try it on E-11).

It does indeed work. MIM is available for public access. Telnet to 
mim.update.uu.se, login as guest with password guest.
Run RMS, and notice the CPA, CPB, CPC and CPD on the memory page.
However, E11 have some bugs, so it don't run stable with more than one 
CPU online, so I normally only have one CPU running.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 06:22:32 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:22:32 +0200
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
Message-ID: <555879F8.7070905@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 05:32, steve shumaker wrote:
> I'm looking for a tool to do a bunch of 3.5 floppy imaging using a linux
> or a windows box.... Media is all early PC stuff.    Any thoughts,
> comments, tools of choice?
> Is IMD the format of choice for these as well or is there something else
> for the newer formats?

Why not just dd(1) the floppy to an image?

	Johnny


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun May 17 07:18:53 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:18:53 +0100
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Message-ID: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>

This just popped up today:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-54-USED-VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-COMPACTAPE-TK50-D
ATA-TAPE-CARTRIDGES-SOFTWARE-/221774909736?

 

It is a bit expensive in my view and shipping to the UK is too much, but I
thought there *might* be some old versions of DEC software on some of those
tapes. I thought of asking about the DEC software myself, but as I know I
wouldn't bid it wouldn't be right for me to ask. Anyone in the USA
interested enough to find out what historical DEC software there might be
and recover the tapes (if possible)?

 

Regards

 

Rob 


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun May 17 09:07:55 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 10:07:55 -0400
Subject: Oregon Software Pascal (was RE: RT11 / RSTS-E games
In-Reply-To: <5551FBEF.3090200@update.uu.se>
References: <000001d08b62$469a5640$d3cf02c0$@classiccmp.org>
 <C5AAB610-4CB2-456E-AEAF-D6989BB6D3B2@aracnet.com>
 <554FC93D.4060109@pico-systems.com>
 <EF75047B-9A34-4C99-BD3E-5C4535300705@comcast.net>
 <FCC686EE-7A35-4FCF-A825-1F9115A1FF89@aracnet.com>
 <5550AC1D.5060206@update.uu.se>
 <E2E36230-033C-4F8C-8A0B-031FA84E5749@aracnet.com>
 <5551FBEF.3090200@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <5558A0BB.8010301@compsys.to>

 >Johnny Billquist wrote:

> On 2015-05-11 16:43, Zane Healy wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 11, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>
>>>>> OMSI actual stands for (at least originally) Oregon Museum of 
>>>>> Science and Industry, and yes, they were creators of software that 
>>>>> ended up being commercialized.
>>>>>
>>>>>     paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's still what it stands for, and they're still around.
>>>
>>>
>>> They are? We should talk to them about getting the OMSI Pascal 
>>> released then. There are things I'd like to improve in there... :-)
>>>
>>>     Johnny
>>
>>
>> Good luck trying to find anyone there that knows that they had 
>> anything to do with PDP-11's.  They moved at some point in the late 
>> 80's or early 90's, at which time they became far less interesting.  
>> I never knew they did anything PDP-11 related until the late-90's, 
>> thanks in part to this list.
>>
>> http://www.omsi.edu
>
>
>
> Hmm. That turned out to be slightly different than what I expected... :-)
> But anyway, OMSI Pascal was carried on by Oregon Software, which if I 
> understand things right was a spinoff from OMSI. That is the company I 
> would like to find the remnants of. 

It took me a few days to locate the manuals and check the date
on the PASCAL.SAV file.  The manual has PASCAL-2 V2.1D
and the file is 397 blocks with a date of 19-Sep-1985.  There is
also a PASCAL.OBJ file with the libraries.

For some reason, there must have been some development after
1999, so there is also a patched file which provides the correct
date on the listing file which is generated.  The patch is less than
a dozen extra instructions and consists of a subroutine call which
checks the 2 high order bits of the date to determine the correct
year under RT-11.  There are no corresponding patches for the
libraries at this time.

If anyone is able to sort out the IP aspects, I can make the files
available along with the manuals which are in poor condition.

Jerome Fine

From lproven at gmail.com  Sun May 17 09:36:16 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:36:16 +0200
Subject: DECpc 433 Workstation manual wanted
In-Reply-To: <20150516211449.GA15386@Update.UU.SE>
References: <55525C5A.5090402@update.uu.se>
 <CAA43vkWE6g6KYPQtxm0GgQLCrHB4qkWgzjc81QQar2018t4cnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5553987E.3050006@update.uu.se>
 <CAMTenCE=UkHw4+LpThUfJi0rJRpJ4NHO6L-RNTiqiEuCf0kwsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150516211449.GA15386@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGKiY7zVwB09qNjh7tOEEvx_2Z1315djsbJxRKLK=L5Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 May 2015 at 23:14, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Weird thing. Not Sound Blaster co.patinle I presume?


Not a chance!

Might have been Windows Sound System compatible, I can't really remember.

I believe I had it working in OS/2 2.0 on my Sunrace 486DX50 notebook.
(DX50, not DX2/50.) Built-in SCSI, a ProHance PowerMouse (with full
numeric keypad *on the mouse*) and dual-booting DR-DOS with Stacker.
SCSI CD and Bernoulli.

A dream PC system in about 1992. :-D

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May 17 09:40:31 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 07:40:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>

> If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do

IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.
IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then there is no reason 
to "image"!
IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then the files are all 
that matters.

IF they are NOT just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), THEN there might be 
reason to image, such as if they are some unknown and not understood 
format, and the files can not be extracted, or there is reason to believe 
that there is some form of information in the structure and format of the 
disk that should be preserved, such as system tracks on CP/M disks, etc.

Or, if they are copy-protected, and stuff other than the files needs to be 
preserved to be able to use the files.  'Course then, your "imaging" 
methods are not likely to work, anyway.


But, IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD),
then there is NO information other than the file content on the disks.


If you format a 3.5" disk in a DOS/Windoze machine, and copy some file 
onto it, . . .
Could you please explain to me WHY you would want an "image" of that disk?




From supervinx at libero.it  Sun May 17 09:50:04 2015
From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:50:04 +0200
Subject: R: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging
Message-ID: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>

The only reason I guess is that they're bootable disks. Otherwise a simple filecopy is more than enough :)



-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> 
Data:17/05/2015  16:40  (GMT+01:00) 
A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Oggetto: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging 

> If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do

IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.
IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then there is no reason 
to "image"!
IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then the files are all 
that matters.

IF they are NOT just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), THEN there might be 
reason to image, such as if they are some unknown and not understood 
format, and the files can not be extracted, or there is reason to believe 
that there is some form of information in the structure and format of the 
disk that should be preserved, such as system tracks on CP/M disks, etc.

Or, if they are copy-protected, and stuff other than the files needs to be 
preserved to be able to use the files.? 'Course then, your "imaging" 
methods are not likely to work, anyway.


But, IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD),
then there is NO information other than the file content on the disks.


If you format a 3.5" disk in a DOS/Windoze machine, and copy some file 
onto it, . . .
Could you please explain to me WHY you would want an "image" of that disk?




From jws at jwsss.com  Sun May 17 10:30:10 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 08:30:10 -0700
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
Message-ID: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>

There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably 
cheap.  Of course unknown condition.

Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some 
sort.  will be using for Hercules setups.

I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone 
has an idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this 
w/o using the token ring cables, since I have what appears to be a 
bridge unit. I'll have to research that though.

Thanks
Jim


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May 17 11:06:19 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 09:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: R: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
References: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170838290.16173@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 17 May 2015, supervinx wrote:
> The only reason I guess is that they're bootable disks. Otherwise a 
> simple filecopy is more than enough :)

If they are bootable DOS disks (and normal, not weird), then there is one 
part that won't come across with a filecopy.  That is Track 0, side A, 
sector 1. If they are some version of DOS for which you don't have a copy 
of the boot-sector, that might be worth saving. Using DEBUG, you can copy 
that into RAM, and save it as a 512 byte file.

DEBUG
L 100 0 0 1        ; load sector from A:    L 100 1 0 1 for B:
R CX               ; set byte count
200                ; 512
N BOOT.DAT         ; filename
W                  ; write
Q                  ; quit out of DEBUG  "most important command of DEBUG"
            NOTE: do NOT type in the comments!

There were a few boot-sector viruses, such as Alameda/Yale, Stoned, and a 
Stoned derivative that was passed off as Michelangelo.   Copying the 
sector using DEBUG does not expose your machine, but attempting to boot 
with them does.


BTW, if they are bootable, then there will be two hidden files:
IO.SYS & MSDOS.SYS for MS-DOS, IBMBIO.COM & IBMDOS.COM for PC-DOS.
When recreating the disks, those must be the first files on the disk,
in the first contiguous sectors.
Plus COMMAND.COM. The filedate of COMMAND.COM is 
normally sufficient to identify the DOS version.

On PC-DOS and "generic" MS-DOS, 720K started with V3.20
But some OEMs started using 720K as early as 2.11, often uniquely 
non-standard  (Gavilan, etc.)
1.4M started with V3.30

NEC had their own version of an MS-DOS HD format.

and, there were some 3.5" CP/M machines.  THOSE should be imaged.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May 17 11:33:23 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 17:33:23 +0100
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
References: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <023901d090bf$32262ba0$967282e0$@gmail.com>

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/NIC/TR-cable.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
> Sent: 17 May 2015 16:30
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
> 
> There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably
> cheap.  Of course unknown condition.
> 
> Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some sort.
> will be using for Hercules setups.
> 
> I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone has an
> idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this w/o using the token
> ring cables, since I have what appears to be a bridge unit. I'll have to research
> that though.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May 17 11:50:04 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 17:50:04 +0100
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
References: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <025101d090c1$8682eec0$9388cc40$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
> Sent: 17 May 2015 16:30
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
> 
> There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably
> cheap.  Of course unknown condition.
> 
> Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some sort.
> will be using for Hercules setups.
> 
> I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone has an
> idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this w/o using the token
> ring cables, since I have what appears to be a bridge unit. I'll have to research
> that though.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim

Jim,
 Is there a part number on the "bridge" unit? Typically the IBM units just switch the stations it and out of the ring.  
Dave


From wilson at dbit.com  Sun May 17 12:01:42 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:01:42 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <5558791B.2030206@update.uu.se>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
 <CAKUYOb19E1s1gVG+_CpTi-5pBJaTqt_F7OfFHHsZ5z2bQLTjVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5558791B.2030206@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <20150517170142.GA24824@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 01:18:51PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>It does indeed work. MIM is available for public access. Telnet to
>mim.update.uu.se, login as guest with password guest.
>Run RMS, and notice the CPA, CPB, CPC and CPD on the memory page.
>However, E11 have some bugs, so it don't run stable with more than one CPU
>online, so I normally only have one CPU running.

I'd love to attack this ... I've never been able to reproduce the trouble,
probably because my home machines don't get the load that MIM does.  Even
if E11's mP feature is officially unsupported, it was a *crazy* amount of
work and I'd really like to put a tougher hide on it.

John Wilson
D Bit

From wilson at dbit.com  Sun May 17 12:05:37 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:05:37 -0400
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
Message-ID: <20150517170537.GA25090@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 08:32:18PM -0700, steve shumaker wrote:
>I'm looking for a tool to do a bunch of 3.5 floppy imaging using a linux or a
>windows box.... Media is all early PC stuff.    Any thoughts, comments, tools
>of choice?

Can't be that early if it's 3.5!  But OK.  Is your point the imaging, or
the doing?  I got a floppy duplicator machine off eBay years ago and I'd
highly recommend one of those if you have a large qty to read.  It's just
a vanilla FD235 drive, and you talk to the mechanical parts over a serial
port using a simple protocol.  So one of these would be great for cranking
through huge stacks of disks w/o having to sit there for hours.

>Is IMD the format of choice for these as well or is there something else for
>the newer formats?

I can't imagine why you'd use anything but a straight image, since that's
what the most tools will know how to look inside ... unless your purpose is
not to use the stuff from the floppies now, but just to retain the ability
to run off duplicates some day w/o storing the disks in the mean time.

John Wilson
D Bit

From mail at ozzmosis.com  Sun May 17 06:29:53 2015
From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:29:53 +1000
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20150517112953.GA82262@ozzmosis.com>

On Sun 2015-05-17 13:18:31 UTC+0200, Jochen Kunz (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) wrote:

> Am 17.05.15 um 09:06 schrieb supervinx:
> > If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
> > it's dirty work...
> > But dd doesn't handle defective errors, it stops there.
>
> Have a look at the dd(1) options "noerror" and "sync".

There is also safecopy:

http://safecopy.sourceforge.net/

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sun May 17 08:30:59 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 09:30:59 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=97Z2mFo_SNc0Dop+Axxb0kT7+jfidLnzpPTSnSG-mwUw@mail.gmail.com>

Dan (the donor) brought more manuals, diags on paper tape, and his very
nice color oscilloscope. Dan's 'scope displays RMS, PTP, Average, and other
voltage values on the side of the trace window, so it makes power
measurements very easy.

After reading the manual and getting instructions from Warren, we found
that some of the misbehaving front panel was due to operator (me) error. The
Mode switch to change between LINC and 8 operation only has an effect after
you press the I/O Preset switch, so that is working correctly.

When you press I/O Preset the INST FIELD is set to 1 and the DATA FIELD is
set to 3. I though that this was wrong for an 8k machine. If you look at
the front panel you will see three bits and an additional 2 bits for the
INST FIELD and DATA FIELD. So part of this is for the 8 and all of it is
for the LINC, and it is working correctly.

We recabled the VR14 and TU56. The Local Forward and Reverse switches on
the TU56 do not get the correct behavior from the motors. The Line fuse on
the VR14 blew when we turned it on.
We will replace the fuse and try a slow power up with a Variac.

We received lots of comments on reforming the capacitors in the power
supply and strong recommendations from experts to just replace them. Since
new caps are a different physical size, and would cost about $250 we
decided to continue with reforming the originals. We measured the voltage
ripple on the backplanes near the power connectors.

   - +5.0V = 5.01V, 200 mV PTP ripple
   - +10.0V = 5.9V, 200 mV PTP ripple
   - -15.0V = -14.2V, 800 mV PTP ripple
   - -30.0V = -31.2V, 800 mV PTP ripple

The 800mV of ripple on the -30 is a sign that the caps in the power supply
were not working well, and is probably too noisy for the core to work. We
tried to measure the capacitance of the power supply capacitors using an
ancient, but very nice, GenRad capacitor meter, but unfortunately the caps
were too big to measure.

We thought that more power on time for the caps might improve their
behavior, so we started debugging the processor. We found that bits 4 and
11 in the Program Counter were always on.
We looked at the flip-flops on the M221 modules in the processor that make
up the PC register and they the contents matched what was loaded from the
console switches. We need to determine why the indicator lights on the
front panel do not exactly reflect the internal state of the registers in
the processor so we can continue debugging.

After running the system for about four hours the ripple on the -30V was
down to 180mV, so the capacitors are getting better. More run time will
hopefully reduce the ripple to an acceptable level. If not, we will have to
replace them.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May 17 10:38:00 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:38:00 -0400
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
References: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkX0spnOcQxi-0OjeAQMUG0ohWhXGTq_BwJmqAn2rum67Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'll second the suggestion of dd, that's how I always take disk images,
personally.Lots of support for these RAW files on other UNIX machines or on
DOS/Windows ... I guess if you have a Mac it makes more sense to try and
make Disk Copy images, but for most platforms I find dd is the way to go.

If you're having some trouble with the media, try something like:

dd if=... of=... bs=... conv=notrunc,noerror,sync

This will cause dd to persist if media errors occur; it will try to just
fill them in with NULs while still getting your image written out and
squared up to proper size; you can then often go back after the fact and
use filesystem repair utilities to clean up the holes, or often an at least
get a fair majority of files off the media with the holes in place... I've
used this to great effect more than once to image failing drives before
replacement.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 10:50 AM, supervinx <supervinx at libero.it> wrote:

> The only reason I guess is that they're bootable disks. Otherwise a simple
> filecopy is more than enough :)
>
>
>
> -------- Messaggio originale --------
> Da: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> Data:17/05/2015  16:40  (GMT+01:00)
> A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Oggetto: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging
>
> > If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
>
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then there is no reason
> to "image"!
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then the files are all
> that matters.
>
> IF they are NOT just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), THEN there might be
> reason to image, such as if they are some unknown and not understood
> format, and the files can not be extracted, or there is reason to believe
> that there is some form of information in the structure and format of the
> disk that should be preserved, such as system tracks on CP/M disks, etc.
>
> Or, if they are copy-protected, and stuff other than the files needs to be
> preserved to be able to use the files.  'Course then, your "imaging"
> methods are not likely to work, anyway.
>
>
> But, IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD),
> then there is NO information other than the file content on the disks.
>
>
> If you format a 3.5" disk in a DOS/Windoze machine, and copy some file
> onto it, . . .
> Could you please explain to me WHY you would want an "image" of that disk?
>
>
>
>

From mail at ozzmosis.com  Sun May 17 11:42:16 2015
From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 02:42:16 +1000
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20150517164216.GA84465@ozzmosis.com>

On Sun 2015-05-17 07:40:31 UTC-0700, Fred Cisin (cisin at xenosoft.com) wrote:

> > If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
> 
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.

Sometimes the volume label is important, for some DOS installers.

Also, for bootable disks obviously you want a copy of the boot sector
and system files, preferably in the correct order.

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May 17 11:58:20 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:58:20 -0400
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <025101d090c1$8682eec0$9388cc40$@gmail.com>
References: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
 <025101d090c1$8682eec0$9388cc40$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkUJ7US+72OiYhEtrvOgM76u0tUv55wqAP65R21otLkbEg@mail.gmail.com>

I can tell you from firsthand experience that if you're just doing short
little runs within a vintage computer room in your home or something like
that, you can directly pin the 9-pin D-sub over to 8P8C and make short runs
with common unshielded Cat V cable and it should work fine. I did this all
the time when I was in high school to connect old MCA PS/2 machines with
the IBM token ring adapters (9 pin D-sub) to various old 8P8C MAUs that I
had acquired. I can't speak to dealing with those funky IBM connectors;
never worked with those.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> jwsmobile
> > Sent: 17 May 2015 16:30
> > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> > Topic Posts
> > Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
> >
> > There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably
> > cheap.  Of course unknown condition.
> >
> > Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some
> sort.
> > will be using for Hercules setups.
> >
> > I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone
> has an
> > idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this w/o using
> the token
> > ring cables, since I have what appears to be a bridge unit. I'll have to
> research
> > that though.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Jim
>
> Jim,
>  Is there a part number on the "bridge" unit? Typically the IBM units just
> switch the stations it and out of the ring.
> Dave
>
>

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Sun May 17 12:11:57 2015
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:11:57 -0400
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CA+oaVqwto6Rv+=8YDW9SV4NWuv2kvGSH8a7sfKpei4tg-ZBRmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>> If they are just plain old dos format (DD or HD) dd under linux will do
>
>
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then there is no reason to
> "image"!
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then the files are all
> that matters.

I have been bit multiple times from people doing simple file copies
instead of imaging. Sometimes it's because of a particular DOS that
was on the floppy and needed by the program. Sometimes it's
copy-protection. But usually it's because the volume labels are gone
and breaks a setup program for a multi-disk app.

You want to do a file copy, then fine. But image the disks too.

Jim

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 12:31:24 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 19:31:24 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <20150517170142.GA24824@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <00469A92-EAAC-4DFC-9A0D-95321F876D02@dell.com>
 <CAKUYOb19E1s1gVG+_CpTi-5pBJaTqt_F7OfFHHsZ5z2bQLTjVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5558791B.2030206@update.uu.se> <20150517170142.GA24824@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <5558D06C.7090101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 19:01, John Wilson wrote:
> On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 01:18:51PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> It does indeed work. MIM is available for public access. Telnet to
>> mim.update.uu.se, login as guest with password guest.
>> Run RMS, and notice the CPA, CPB, CPC and CPD on the memory page.
>> However, E11 have some bugs, so it don't run stable with more than one CPU
>> online, so I normally only have one CPU running.
>
> I'd love to attack this ... I've never been able to reproduce the trouble,
> probably because my home machines don't get the load that MIM does.  Even
> if E11's mP feature is officially unsupported, it was a *crazy* amount of
> work and I'd really like to put a tougher hide on it.

I'd be happy to. How do you want to go about it?
If I enable a second CPU, that second CPU will hang eventually. Want 
access to the E11 console to poke around? Or you want to try something else?

	Johnny


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May 17 12:41:09 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 10:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <20150517164216.GA84465@ozzmosis.com>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
 <20150517164216.GA84465@ozzmosis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505171014010.16173@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 18 May 2015, andrew clarke wrote:
> Sometimes the volume label is important, for some DOS installers.

Good point!  Unless the disk has some special weirdities, that is easy 
enough.  For sets of disks, I like to determine whether the disk breakdown 
is essential.  For something like Windoze, putting all of the disk 
contents into a single directory can be handy, but for some other 
packages, I prefer to put the files of each disk into a separate 
subdirectory, and use the volume label as the name for that subdirectory.

> Also, for bootable disks obviously you want a copy of the boot sector
> and system files, preferably in the correct order.

Unless the DOS version of the copies produced doesn't matter, . . .
I wrote out the steps in DEBUG to copy the boot-sector (I hope that I 
didn't screw up and type it in wrong!)

Yes, most versions of DOS require the 2 hidden files to be in specific 
places on the disk AND in the DIRectory, by copying them first.
Early versions of the SYSTEM program will only install the same
version as what is running, so that will often not be an option.

It's easy, if not paying attention to forget to copy the hidden files,
or not realize that some INSTALL program is overly dependent on volume 
labels, etc.   It all tends to come back to whether what's needed is
the disks themselves, or the information stored on them.
And once everything is copied to the Brainspawn's InfoSphere, (Only 
twice the size of three regular DataSpheres) none of the originals 
will still be needed.

Nevertheless, unless there is reason to do otherwise, I'd rather simply 
copy the files and when recreating, simply create a new system disk to put 
them on, IF NEEDED.
And, unless it is NOT "normal" standard stuff, I still don't see a reason 
to "IMAGE" ordinary stuff.


BUT, of course, if the original poster is NOT talking about DOS disks, 
then imaging may be truly essential.
With Don Maslin gone, it could be a major hassle trying to find a boot 
disk for an Amada, Jonos, Sony M35 CP/M, etc.


BTW, I still have difficulty with calling 3.5", "EARLY"!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From sales at elecplus.com  Sun May 17 13:19:12 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:19:12 -0500
Subject: Old DEC and HP boards
Message-ID: <00ef01d090cd$f9b15bf0$ed1413d0$@com>

The scrappers are here, clearing out the warehouse.

I saved a box of old DEC and HP boards.

First $100 plus about $35 UPS ground shipping takes them home (in CONUS).

I have no idea if any of them still work, but I pulled them from  large
working cabinets I was required to destroy about 18 years ago.

Part numbers are:

M8061

97871 401-33692 Quad Cache qty 3

85-3438-02 Cache memory

M8059FH

M8048 qty 3

M8059FB

M8186 qty 3

Peritek Corporation DMA-Q

97871 MUX qty 5

5020477-01-DC1 Diceon 6A

M8016YB

 

HP boards:

C-2440-40 2443-9572

5181-5649 Rev A

98257-66524 98257A

33445-60002 A-2745-39

D2237-60001 (no CPU chips)

A1470-66521 16MB memory qty 2

 

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 13:42:26 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:42:26 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 05:18, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
> This just popped up today:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-54-USED-VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-COMPACTAPE-TK50-D
> ATA-TAPE-CARTRIDGES-SOFTWARE-/221774909736?

Hmm, mystery media to be archived is one of my weak spots... I wonder whether A) any of this stuff might be usable on my 11/730 (which presumably has VMS 5.3 installed, though I haven't dealt with the console boot tape issue yet to bring it up), and B) whether a TK50 drive can be interfaced to my 11/730 under VMS 5.3. Its card cage is already full, though I suppose I could temporarily remove either the ethernet or 1/2" tape drive cards. Can anybody educate me on this subject?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 13:45:47 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 20:45:47 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 8:42 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay


> On May 17, 2015, at 05:18, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> 
> wrote:
>
> This just popped up today:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-54-USED-VINTAGE-DEC-DIGITAL-COMPACTAPE-TK50-D
> ATA-TAPE-CARTRIDGES-SOFTWARE-/221774909736?

Hmm, mystery media to be archived is one of my weak spots... I wonder 
whether A) any of this stuff might be usable on my 11/730 (which presumably 
has VMS 5.3 installed, though I haven't dealt with the console boot tape 
issue yet to bring it up), and B) whether a TK50 drive can be interfaced to 
my 11/730 under VMS 5.3. Its card cage is already full, though I suppose I 
could temporarily remove either the ethernet or 1/2" tape drive cards. Can 
anybody educate me on this subject?
-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

----
You would need the TUK-50 interface (quad) module to hook the TK50
to a UNIBUS-based system.
The TQK-50 interface for TK50 to QBUS is common - TUK-50 is not ...

- Henk, PA8PDP


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 13:49:16 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:49:16 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 11:45, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You would need the TUK-50 interface (quad) module to hook the TK50
> to a UNIBUS-based system.
> The TQK-50 interface for TK50 to QBUS is common - TUK-50 is not ...
> 
> - Henk, PA8PDP
> 

Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)

If I had one, would VMS 5.3 know what to do with it, though?

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 13:52:39 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 11:52:39 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 11:49, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)
> 

Oooh, found one already! I'd like to learn more before I click "buy", though.

Sigh, another project... :)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 14:11:24 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:11:24 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS2710CFDD60EA084B513A2F86C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair 
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 8:49 PM 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay 

> On May 17, 2015, at 11:45, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You would need the TUK-50 interface (quad) module to hook the TK50
> to a UNIBUS-based system.
> The TQK-50 interface for TK50 to QBUS is common - TUK-50 is not ...
> 
> - Henk, PA8PDP

Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)
If I had one, would VMS 5.3 know what to do with it, though?

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

-----
That would be mentioned in the Release Notes :-)
Sorry, no knowledge about VMSW (yet).

- Henk, PA8PDP

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 14:17:06 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:17:06 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 8:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay

> On May 17, 2015, at 11:49, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)

Oooh, found one already! I'd like to learn more before I click "buy", 
though.
Sigh, another project... :)
-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

----- 
I am not going to look, I might be tempted ...
If it sells for less than $50, I'd say "go for it".  The TUK-50
is not that often on sale. With this module you can connect
the TK50 to any UNIBUS system.
You need some flat cable from the module to the TK50,
but it is a "straight" cable IIRC.  If needed, I can check.
My 11/44 has a TK50 (thus a TUK-50 module installed).

- Henk, PA8PDP


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Sun May 17 14:19:23 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 14:19:23 -0500
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
References: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <000501d090d6$62d98cd0$288ca670$@classiccmp.org>

I am looking for a TI 820 or 825 KSR, if anyone has one in good shape with all keys that they are willing to part with - sale or trade...

J



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 14:24:09 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:24:09 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS42544037226A190FB8C12E86C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 8:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay

> On May 17, 2015, at 11:49, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)

Oooh, found one already! I'd like to learn more before I click "buy", 
though.
Sigh, another project... :)
-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

-----
I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging
from some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)


From sales at elecplus.com  Sun May 17 14:25:20 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 14:25:20 -0500
Subject: old DEC and HP boards are claimed.
Message-ID: <00f501d090d7$3721e140$a565a3c0$@com>

All gone, that was fast J

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 14:29:20 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:29:20 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 12:17, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ----- I am not going to look, I might be tempted ...
> If it sells for less than $50, I'd say "go for it".  The TUK-50
> is not that often on sale. With this module you can connect
> the TK50 to any UNIBUS system.
> You need some flat cable from the module to the TK50,
> but it is a "straight" cable IIRC.  If needed, I can check.
> My 11/44 has a TK50 (thus a TUK-50 module installed).

Well, $55 with free shipping is close enough! I bought the card, which I could always use in my 11/44 project, too.

Now I'm trying to learn about the drives. I understand the TUK50 board has a 26ish-pin header for the drive cable. I see an ugly-looking TK50D external drive on eBay, but it appears to have a 50-pin D connector. There are also some TK50Z SCSI (?) external drives listed, which I presume are not applicable. Maybe I'd need to get an internal drive and cobble together a power source.

> On May 17, 2015, at 12:24, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
> Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging
> from some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)
> 

That's because I just bought the only M7547 listed! ;)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 14:35:09 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:35:09 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS42544037226A190FB8C12E86C50@phx.gbl>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS42544037226A190FB8C12E86C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ACA465E2-56E3-4413-B156-7D1A80904DC2@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 12:24, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
> Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging
> from some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)
> 

Aw, heck, $25 for a TQK50 sounds cheap. Might as well get one for my 11/03! :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 14:40:12 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:40:12 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS106BCB8E1A0AD74ED4032E86C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 9:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay

Well, $55 with free shipping is close enough! I bought the card, which I 
could always use in my 11/44 project, too.

Now I'm trying to learn about the drives. I understand the TUK50 board has a 
26ish-pin header for the drive cable. I see an ugly-looking TK50D external 
drive on eBay, but it appears to have a 50-pin D connector. There are also 
some TK50Z SCSI (?) external drives listed, which I presume are not 
applicable. Maybe I'd need to get an internal drive and cobble together a 
power source.

> On May 17, 2015, at 12:24, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
> Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging
> from some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)

That's because I just bought the only M7547 listed! ;)
-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

-----
Congrats, I cannot remember sales below $50 for a TUK-50 module.
This is from (old) memory cells, so I could be wrong ...
AFAIK, the external box-based drives (whether the box contained a
TK50, TK70, or RD5x) always used a 50-pin 3-row D shell connector.
When the TK50 is inside the cabinet it is a smaller cable - 26 pin
could be it. As said, I can check next Saturday, but other readers
sure can answer this one too.
With the TK50 in the cabinet you need a PSU, the external TK50D
would be a good source. The PSU is nothing special though ...

TK50Z drives are OK with a DECstation or VAXstation (?) or XXXserver,
their interface is indeed SCSI. Not 100% sure, I'd need to RTFM a bit.

- Henk, PA8PDP


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun May 17 14:41:35 2015
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 20:41:35 +0100
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J.
> Blair
> Sent: 17 May 2015 20:29
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
> 
> 
> > On May 17, 2015, at 12:17, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- I am not going to look, I might be tempted ...
> > If it sells for less than $50, I'd say "go for it".  The TUK-50 is not
> > that often on sale. With this module you can connect the TK50 to any
> > UNIBUS system.
> > You need some flat cable from the module to the TK50, but it is a
> > "straight" cable IIRC.  If needed, I can check.
> > My 11/44 has a TK50 (thus a TUK-50 module installed).
> 
> Well, $55 with free shipping is close enough! I bought the card, which I
could
> always use in my 11/44 project, too.
> 
> Now I'm trying to learn about the drives. I understand the TUK50 board has
a
> 26ish-pin header for the drive cable. I see an ugly-looking TK50D external
drive
> on eBay, but it appears to have a 50-pin D connector. There are also some
> TK50Z SCSI (?) external drives listed, which I presume are not applicable.
> Maybe I'd need to get an internal drive and cobble together a power
source.
> 
> > On May 17, 2015, at 12:24, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
> > Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging from
> > some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)
> >
> 
> That's because I just bought the only M7547 listed! ;)
> 

Glad you got the board and I hope you get a decent drive to read the tapes
with. You could always put together a Qbus system just to read the tapes
(which could then be the much better TK70, or even some of the later
drives), but if you have a 730 and can read it there that would be great. I
used to use a 730 many years ago, would be great to see one again.

Don't forget, if you get those tapes, to let us know what old DEC software
is on there. I would like to find the DECnet kit for MicroVMS (although I
have a way to get DECnet working on MicroVMS anyway, it would still be nice
to have the proper kit).

I am sure you are aware, but just in case, be careful with these tapes as I
suspect they are now at the point of being ROMs (Read Once at Most), and
they can gum up the drive quite badly, make sure you clean the heads after
running each tape through, for anything really critical.

Regards

Rob


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun May 17 14:48:02 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:48:02 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <CACTnH8sv7cgCP3PpmbX23_mBDYi2tfmZUw7+j29wdD4N+LA1uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8sv7cgCP3PpmbX23_mBDYi2tfmZUw7+j29wdD4N+LA1uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTREe=gUAq5QxwtvtwuOrP6dqa++LHuKnKs3LBRe0M7ESQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Richard B. Main, Esq.
<mainpatents at gmail.com> wrote:
> The 8041 has the same pinout as the Intel 8741 programmable.

It's the same pinout, but the 8041 is NOT rated for application of
+25V to the EA pin, as used to do ROM verification of the 8741.

> A Pro-Log M980 PROM Programmer with a PM 9054 personality module can read out the programs
> inside.

Does the Pro-Log have a specific setting for 8041, or are you using
the 8741 setting and overstressing the part?

I've successfully read 8048 parts using a programmer configured for
8748, but I only did that on parts that I could afford to sacrifice. I
don't have spares of the IOC 8041A, so I'm building a kludge to read
it properly without applying 25V to EA.

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 14:50:15 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:50:15 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
 <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 12:41, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
> Glad you got the board and I hope you get a decent drive to read the tapes
> with. You could always put together a Qbus system just to read the tapes
> (which could then be the much better TK70, or even some of the later
> drives), but if you have a 730 and can read it there that would be great. I
> used to use a 730 many years ago, would be great to see one again.

I think I'll probably choose a clean-looking internal drive over one of the dirty-looking external ones I see listed. I'd imagine that this drive would get temporarily installed in various systems in my pile rather than being dedicated to one of them.

> 
> Don't forget, if you get those tapes, to let us know what old DEC software
> is on there. I would like to find the DECnet kit for MicroVMS (although I
> have a way to get DECnet working on MicroVMS anyway, it would still be nice
> to have the proper kit).

Will do! And I'll experiment with the least rare-looking ones first, of course. Still haven't decided whether to buy that particular box of tapes or not.

> I am sure you are aware, but just in case, be careful with these tapes as I
> suspect they are now at the point of being ROMs (Read Once at Most), and
> they can gum up the drive quite badly, make sure you clean the heads after
> running each tape through, for anything really critical.

Ah, yes... another benefit of an internal drive sitting naked on the table would be easier access to the heads for cleaning. Maybe I should build that tape/disk baking oven I've been thinking about before trying any old tapes out?

Of course, I still need to deal with my 730's console boot tape issues first. I haven't managed to boot up the system yet, so my next step will be to try splicing in tu58em in place of the tape drive.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun May 17 14:52:14 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:52:14 -0400
Subject: Update - PDP 11/44 Now on Ebay no reserve
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPj4aawYm6qZ_XyxTOHxqnXO1rsKOYnWkRaCmw=5tbAcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0bb808a8174b4cc0a344653d0084418f@buzz1.com>
 <EC1C8E7E-9265-4DD1-A741-0CD7BA44142B@nf6x.net>
 <8aa6505957294a6f983eb42ed91ecf42@buzz1.com>
 <F59DCBE5-E7A3-4CF1-B896-4BA0804E3E74@nf6x.net>
 <953b09104e7e498084175f08738ae677@buzz1.com>
 <CACwhfuPj4aawYm6qZ_XyxTOHxqnXO1rsKOYnWkRaCmw=5tbAcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkrxt47HhtL+UpcLTO5D4L=nJbCOHE_Cd_s33D9HtCucg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> The box on the bottom looks like a BA11-KE expansion box with two  9 slot
> backplanes it in.

Agreed.  I finally found the updated picture album (oh, and it looks
like mice got to the TU58 serial cable, but that's easy to replace).

> Since the 11/44 has a few DD11-CKs in it, the ones down
> below might be for mass storage like a RH11, RK611, TM02 or 3, etc.

It's a bit fuzzy from the green solder mask, but I think I can make
out "M7299" on the copper of one of the cards, which is, I think, one
of the boards in an RH-11.

> Might be worth checking it out. It could up the value some.

Absolutely.

-ethan

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 14:54:18 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:54:18 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
 <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>
 <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <B6C33DAF-AE55-43CD-83D5-824D27E15697@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 12:50, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 17, 2015, at 12:41, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Glad you got the board and I hope you get a decent drive to read the tapes
>> with. You could always put together a Qbus system just to read the tapes
>> (which could then be the much better TK70, or even some of the later
>> drives), but if you have a 730 and can read it there that would be great. I
>> used to use a 730 many years ago, would be great to see one again.

Ah, this brings up another question: Would I be able to dump VMS TK50 tapes to image files somehow under RT11? Once I have my PDP-11/03 working reliably with a SCSI card and SCSI2SD or something similar, maybe that would be a more convenient system for imaging the tapes, assuming RT11 can do what's necessary.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sun May 17 14:55:08 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:55:08 -0300
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTREe=gUAq5QxwtvtwuOrP6dqa++LHuKnKs3LBRe0M7ESQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8sv7cgCP3PpmbX23_mBDYi2tfmZUw7+j29wdD4N+LA1uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTREe=gUAq5QxwtvtwuOrP6dqa++LHuKnKs3LBRe0M7ESQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKRJ5QP-vFG2-o2gT7heoGFt2PKpmrXaqccGXtFEhsCRgA@mail.gmail.com>

As far as I remember, + 25 isnt used for rom reading. You can read any
8048/8049 as 8748/8749 with no danger. And they have no soft protection. So
any uc *48 and *49 can be copied.

enviado do meu telemovel
Em 17/05/2015 16:48, "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> escreveu:

> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Richard B. Main, Esq.
> <mainpatents at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The 8041 has the same pinout as the Intel 8741 programmable.
>
> It's the same pinout, but the 8041 is NOT rated for application of
> +25V to the EA pin, as used to do ROM verification of the 8741.
>
> > A Pro-Log M980 PROM Programmer with a PM 9054 personality module can
> read out the programs
> > inside.
>
> Does the Pro-Log have a specific setting for 8041, or are you using
> the 8741 setting and overstressing the part?
>
> I've successfully read 8048 parts using a programmer configured for
> 8748, but I only did that on parts that I could afford to sacrifice. I
> don't have spares of the IOC 8041A, so I'm building a kludge to read
> it properly without applying 25V to EA.
>

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun May 17 15:02:59 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:02:59 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <ACA465E2-56E3-4413-B156-7D1A80904DC2@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS42544037226A190FB8C12E86C50@phx.gbl>
 <ACA465E2-56E3-4413-B156-7D1A80904DC2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS27DC3F2BF0274834C9272886C50@phx.gbl>

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Mark J. Blair
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 9:35 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay

> On May 17, 2015, at 12:24, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I could not resist ... a quick search did not find a TUK-50 ...
> Note that the M7546 is for QBUS.  Saw a few of those, ranging
> from some $25 (acceptable) to $799.99 (way insane crazy!)

Aw, heck, $25 for a TQK50 sounds cheap. Might as well get one for my 11/03! 
:)
-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/

-----
For your 11/03 you could also go for a TK70 + TQK70.
The TK70 is better than the TK50 (heard/read from other chaps),
and with the TK70 you can *read* TK50 tapes (not write though).
There is no UNIBUS interface for the TK70 (AFAIK).

- Henk, PA8PDP


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sun May 17 15:05:15 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 13:05:15 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS27DC3F2BF0274834C9272886C50@phx.gbl>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS42544037226A190FB8C12E86C50@phx.gbl>
 <ACA465E2-56E3-4413-B156-7D1A80904DC2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS27DC3F2BF0274834C9272886C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8D5D489C-68CD-42EB-ABFB-16E95D3F8CB9@nf6x.net>


> On May 17, 2015, at 13:02, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> For your 11/03 you could also go for a TK70 + TQK70.
> The TK70 is better than the TK50 (heard/read from other chaps),
> and with the TK70 you can *read* TK50 tapes (not write though).
> There is no UNIBUS interface for the TK70 (AFAIK).


I've put an offer on a TK50AA internal drive, but I see that somebody else has already bought the big box of TK50 tapes. I snooze, I lose! Well, I kind of wanted to experiment with an old TK50 drive anyway, so I'll look for some other tape(s) to play with.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 15:09:04 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:09:04 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5558F560.1040505@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 20:49, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> On May 17, 2015, at 11:45, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You would need the TUK-50 interface (quad) module to hook the TK50
>> to a UNIBUS-based system.
>> The TQK-50 interface for TK50 to QBUS is common - TUK-50 is not ...
>>
>> - Henk, PA8PDP
>>
>
> Thanks! I'll add some eBay searches. ;)
>
> If I had one, would VMS 5.3 know what to do with it, though?

Yes, the TUK-50 looks like any other TMSCP controller.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 15:16:59 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:16:59 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
 <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>
 <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5558F73B.8040408@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 21:50, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> On May 17, 2015, at 12:41, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> Glad you got the board and I hope you get a decent drive to read the tapes
>> with. You could always put together a Qbus system just to read the tapes
>> (which could then be the much better TK70, or even some of the later
>> drives), but if you have a 730 and can read it there that would be great. I
>> used to use a 730 many years ago, would be great to see one again.
>
> I think I'll probably choose a clean-looking internal drive over one of the dirty-looking external ones I see listed. I'd imagine that this drive would get temporarily installed in various systems in my pile rather than being dedicated to one of them.

The external drive is just the internal drive in a box with a PSU.
The drive itself sits on the same sled you see in all the micro machines.

>> I am sure you are aware, but just in case, be careful with these tapes as I
>> suspect they are now at the point of being ROMs (Read Once at Most), and
>> they can gum up the drive quite badly, make sure you clean the heads after
>> running each tape through, for anything really critical.
>
> Ah, yes... another benefit of an internal drive sitting naked on the table would be easier access to the heads for cleaning. Maybe I should build that tape/disk baking oven I've been thinking about before trying any old tapes out?
>
> Of course, I still need to deal with my 730's console boot tape issues first. I haven't managed to boot up the system yet, so my next step will be to try splicing in tu58em in place of the tape drive.

The TK50 normally do not gum up. There are two problems with them, and 
those problems have been around since day 1.
The first one is that the heads get dirty. Cleaning with isopropanol or 
similar with a lint-free pad solves that just fine.
The second problem is that the tape pickup gets unhinged. Remove the 
covers and then you can fix that easily.

The TK50 also is horrible in that you just have one button, that is 
supposed to do several functions, meaning it can get confused and you 
won't be able to get the tape out. Power cycle for that one.

	Johnny


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 15:18:48 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 22:18:48 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <B6C33DAF-AE55-43CD-83D5-824D27E15697@nf6x.net>
References: <002101d0909b$a3bfefe0$eb3fcfa0$@ntlworld.com>
 <11C0D513-C838-467C-9AD6-C16D8B62F172@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS429B29312B04171A93BCC986C50@phx.gbl>
 <1097926D-CCAC-492F-91D9-523BF364E0FC@nf6x.net>
 <1C117BA8-78D4-41F5-8F8C-CD89A79133D2@nf6x.net>
 <DUB110-DS28C5030FB8D2299F46F1FD86C50@phx.gbl>
 <03FF6990-7336-4544-99F4-E77F596CF31C@nf6x.net>
 <003001d090d9$7c0b9060$7422b120$@ntlworld.com>
 <ED4E7173-4CE0-4D9B-B0B4-7EA2E629E9C2@nf6x.net>
 <B6C33DAF-AE55-43CD-83D5-824D27E15697@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5558F7A8.20700@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-17 21:54, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> On May 17, 2015, at 12:50, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On May 17, 2015, at 12:41, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Glad you got the board and I hope you get a decent drive to read the tapes
>>> with. You could always put together a Qbus system just to read the tapes
>>> (which could then be the much better TK70, or even some of the later
>>> drives), but if you have a 730 and can read it there that would be great. I
>>> used to use a 730 many years ago, would be great to see one again.
>
> Ah, this brings up another question: Would I be able to dump VMS TK50 tapes to image files somehow under RT11? Once I have my PDP-11/03 working reliably with a SCSI card and SCSI2SD or something similar, maybe that would be a more convenient system for imaging the tapes, assuming RT11 can do what's necessary.

Sure. Reading the tape is simple. And then you have the tape blocks. The 
question is what you do with them from there...

You might want to try and find some tool that creates some tape image. 
Under RSX you'd normally use TPC, which creates file images of the tape, 
which the same tool can then recreate the tapes from. The format would 
be familiar to anyone who dealt with TPC-format tapes under Unix. ;-)

	Johnny


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun May 17 16:07:27 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:07:27 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKRJ5QP-vFG2-o2gT7heoGFt2PKpmrXaqccGXtFEhsCRgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8sv7cgCP3PpmbX23_mBDYi2tfmZUw7+j29wdD4N+LA1uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTREe=gUAq5QxwtvtwuOrP6dqa++LHuKnKs3LBRe0M7ESQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKRJ5QP-vFG2-o2gT7heoGFt2PKpmrXaqccGXtFEhsCRgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSz6apue3x2jOtdmG2UpW3RiU24WZHqeXyixvkUpWmM2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Alexandre Souza
<alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as I remember, + 25 isnt used for rom reading. You can read any
> 8048/8049 as 8748/8749 with no danger. And they have no soft protection. So
> any uc *48 and *49 can be copied.

25V isn't used for reading the 8041 and 8048, but it *is* used for
reading the 8741, 8741A, 8748. That can be seen in the Intel
datasheets as well as the MCS-48 and UPI-41 user manuals.  I've also
verified the presence of 25V during  read on multiple device
programmers.

I have in fact read some 8048 and 8049 parts as 8748 and 8749,
respectively, but only with parts that I had spares of, since the 8048
and 8049 are NOT rated for use of +25V to read, and instead are
supposed to be read with EA at +12V. While it's reasonably plausible
that putting +25V on EA won't damage an 8041A, I don't have another
instance of the 8041A with the same code, so I'm not willing to risk
it.

From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Sun May 17 17:03:32 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:03:32 -0700
Subject: old DEC and HP boards are claimed.
In-Reply-To: <00f501d090d7$3721e140$a565a3c0$@com>
Message-ID: <20150517220333.2AFF4E03FE@smtp.hushmail.com>

I nabbed these. I'm not interested in the HP cards or the 11/23 CPU's. I'll send them to anyone that is interested for shipping.

On a side note - I'm looking for RL02 bit's (Drive, packs, cables). I'll pay reasonable price + shipping :-) Please contact me off list if you have any to spare.

Kirk

On May 17, 2015 at 12:25 PM, "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com> wrote:
>
>All gone, that was fast J
>
> 
>
>Cindy Croxton
>
>Electronics Plus
>
>1613 Water Street
>
>Kerrville, TX 78028
>
>830-792-3400 phone
>
>sales at elecplus.com
>
>AOL IM elcpls


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun May 17 17:16:22 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 18:16:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
Message-ID: <20150517221622.0C09F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: John Wilson

    > Even if E11's mP feature is officially unsupported, it was a *crazy*
    > amount of work

What made it so much work? (Just curious about the technical aspects...)

	Noel

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Sun May 17 17:55:24 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 18:55:24 -0400
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
Message-ID: <ccb82.79ed292b.428a765b@aol.com>

one here  but not   cheap.
 
I was  happy   I  got a  diablo  KSR
I can not  even tell you how  bad  I used to lust   after one of those in 
1979......
 
http://www.omnidatasys.net/catalog/printers/texas-Instruments-ti-820-ksr
 
 
In a message dated 5/17/2015 12:19:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwest at classiccmp.org writes:

I am  looking for a TI 820 or 825 KSR, if anyone has one in good shape with 
all keys  that they are willing to part with - sale or  trade...

J



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun May 17 18:35:37 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 01:35:37 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <20150517221622.0C09F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150517221622.0C09F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <555925C9.6080409@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-18 00:16, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: John Wilson
>
>      > Even if E11's mP feature is officially unsupported, it was a *crazy*
>      > amount of work
>
> What made it so much work? (Just curious about the technical aspects...)

John really needs to answer this one, as I think only he knows the 
innards of E11.
However, I know at least parts of the story, as related to how RSX 
works. Part of the problem is just memory coherency. The 11/74 
essentially guarantees memory consistency. If you write to a memory 
location from one CPU, it is immediately visible from all CPUs. At the 
same time, the 11/74 do not have any cache coherency. I believe in 
general, you can accept the memory coherency of modern systems as an 
acceptable alternative, since they essentially just gives you more 
coherency.
But it still needs examination and evaluation.

A second problem is how interprocess communication works. The 11/74 have 
a special device which takes care of this. It have something like a door 
bell for each CPU, and when one CPU wants to get the attention of 
another CPU, this device is used. It causes an interrupt on the second 
CPU, and it is then expected to figure out why it was knocked on, and 
acknowledge the request before the requesting CPU times out. This 
timeout is essentially done through a spin lock with a counter.
On modern machines, this counter runs way faster than on a real 11/74. 
In addition, the time spent on each thread, which implements the 
individual CPUs, might not match 1:1 to actual CPUs. So, in essence, the 
requesting CPU could be doing a whole lot of work before the requested 
CPU even gets to execute a single instruction. This will cause the 
interprocessor interrupt to time out in RSX. So, when the IIST 
interprocess interrupts are used, you need to somehow make sure that all 
CPUs will execute some code before the requesting CPU might time out. 
That is not trivial to accomplish.

Third, the actual IIST device documentation was not available when the 
E11 implementation was done, so it was a lot of reverse engineering 
based on how RSX use the device.

Fourth, some other bits and pieces of an 11/74 also exists and are 
different from other 11/70 systems (not to mention any other PDP-11). 
E11 don't do all of them correctly either, such as the MKA-11 memory 
boxes, which have their own CSRs.

Also, not all parts of how an 11/74 system works are really that clearly 
understood. For example, an 11/74 can start and stop individual CPUs 
while the system is running. Exactly how is this done? They obviously do 
not have normal M9312 bootstrap cards with standard boot roms, since 
that would not work. An 11/74 do have four separate consoles (if we have 
four CPUs), and four separate Unibuses. Also, four separate front 
panels. This also means that the same CSR addresses can be used by 
several devices, if they are on different buses. This also means that 
all device emulations also needs to now be aware of which bus they are 
sitting on.

I guess the list goes on... :-)

	Johnny

From dmabry at mich.com  Sun May 17 19:06:09 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 20:06:09 -0400
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>

F.Ulivi wrote on 2/17/2015 9:19 AM:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm looking for the images of ROMs installed on the IOC (I/O controller)
> board of Intel MDS-2 development systems. In particular I'm looking for
> the content of the character generator ROM (A19-2708) and of firmware
> ROMs (A50 to A53-4x2716). So far I had no success in googling them.
> My goal would be to contribute a good emulation of MDS systems to MESS,
> especially for what regards the look of the video terminal. Well, this
> is the plan, when "real-life" is not inteferring too much...
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> -- F.Ulivi
>
>

I know I'm kind of late into this discussion, but I just took a look at 
what I have and perhaps I can help.

I have the character generator rom code from an IOC.  Not sure if there 
were any changes to it over the revisions of the IOC, but I don't think 
so.  My copy should be good.

As for the firmware, there were many versions.  At one point Intel 
released an upgrade package called the iMDX-511.  That added 
cursor-addressbility on the integral CRT, a function key on the keyboard 
(replaced the RPT (repeat) key), some shortcut key sequences, improved 
speed, and other things I can't remember.  It was a standard part of the 
Series-II at some point, about the same time the white one became available.

I have all that rom code.  I even took a swipe at disassembling it to 
try to understand it.  That was never finished, but I did make some 
progress.

If the 8741/8041 chip on the IOC was called the PIO (Parallel I/O) then 
I have that rom code too.  I have a document that says the 8041 is 
indeed the PIO.

The iMDX-511 also included an enhancement to the keyboard processor.  I 
have that rom code as well.

I'm really sorry I didn't look into this sooner as it may have saved a 
lot of discussion on this list.

In any case, I can create a zip file of what I have an email it to 
anyone interested.

Just email me a good email address for you and I send it out.

Dave


From macro at linux-mips.org  Sun May 17 19:10:45 2015
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 01:10:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: R: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170838290.16173@shell.lmi.net>
References: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170838290.16173@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505180048160.4923@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Sun, 17 May 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:

> > The only reason I guess is that they're bootable disks. Otherwise a simple
> > filecopy is more than enough :)
> 
> If they are bootable DOS disks (and normal, not weird), then there is one part
> that won't come across with a filecopy.  That is Track 0, side A, sector 1. If
> they are some version of DOS for which you don't have a copy of the
> boot-sector, that might be worth saving. Using DEBUG, you can copy that into
> RAM, and save it as a 512 byte file.

 Why bother?  As most people suggest `dd' is the most straightforward way, 
and on a reasonable OS you can then mount the filesystem directly from 
such an image of a floppy via a loop device.  You can then copy individual 
files out from there if really needed.  You can copy the boot sector 
separately with `dd' too if required, also from that image rather than the 
original.

 With defect-free media, which is usually the case with properly stored 
diskettes made up to mid 1990s, in addition to what has already been 
written I'd suggest the block size of 32768 with `dd' to get a decent read 
performance.  The performance of individual floppies may vary depending on 
how they have been formatted, i.e. if any sector staggering has been used.

 Also, from experience, with marginal media you may still be able to read 
data out eventually with a linear dump such as `dd' performs, while 
copying files out individually that involves random seeks may not be as 
successful.

  Maciej

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May 17 19:48:40 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 17:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: R: Re: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505180048160.4923@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <pdn1mqr0i2rcud9ubw2vdcxs.1431874138491@email.android.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170838290.16173@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505180048160.4923@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505171741320.16173@shell.lmi.net>

Mostly, I got request based on "these disks have my source code, my 
dissertation, my accounting spreadsheets, my legal correspondence, . . . "

On Mon, 18 May 2015, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote:
> You can then copy individual
> files out from there if really needed.

If your need is for "disk images" instead of files,
and file contents are "if really needed",
then you should most certainly stick with DD.




From curt at atarimuseum.com  Sun May 17 20:02:07 2015
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:02:07 -0400
Subject: FYI - Plato Terminal has been sold
Message-ID: <55593A0F.7080108@atarimuseum.com>

Thank you for all of the inquires...

The CDC 721 Plato Terminal has been sold.


Curt



From spacewar at gmail.com  Sun May 17 20:34:46 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 19:34:46 -0600
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>
	<55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
> As for the firmware, there were many versions.  At one point Intel released
> an upgrade package called the iMDX-511.  That added cursor-addressbility on
> the integral CRT, a function key on the keyboard (replaced the RPT (repeat)
> key), some shortcut key sequences, improved speed, and other things I can't
> remember.  It was a standard part of the Series-II at some point, about the
> same time the white one became available.

I've dumped all the programmable parts from a Series II with an IPB
(8080 main CPU board) and the IOC iMDX-511 firmware, except the IOC
8041A and a few soldered-in bipolar PROMs used for address decode on
the IPB.  My firmware images are on Bitsavers:

    http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/intel/MDS2/firmware/mds2.zip

> I have all that rom code.  I even took a swipe at disassembling it to try to
> understand it.  That was never finished, but I did make some progress.

As have I.  I found that the IOC firmware has undocumented 0dh and 0eh
commands. Command 0x0d allows the main CPU to write to arbitrary IOC
memory, and is probably for diagnostics, but is not allowed unless IOC
RAM location 5af4h contains the value 24h, and I haven't figured out
how that can be made to happen, since you can't use command 0x0d to
set it if it isn't already set.  I haven't yet figured out what
command 0eh does.

> If the 8741/8041 chip on the IOC was called the PIO (Parallel I/O) then I
> have that rom code too.  I have a document that says the 8041 is indeed the
> PIO.

Yes. I'd like a copy. Can you confirm that the one you dumped is P/N 104566-001?

> The iMDX-511 also included an enhancement to the keyboard processor.  I have
> that rom code as well.

104675-001, included in the ZIP file on bitsavers.

Do you have dumps of the firmware for the RPB86 and/or RPC86 8086 CPU
boards used in the Series III?

Best regards,
Eric

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun May 17 20:39:48 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 20:39:48 -0500
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it> <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
 <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs212USrwsHHfdOtkBohQxa-Pe0kkzutj8KZ39s20P36Cfw@mail.gmail.com>

wish i coud get mine to work when ever i put the cpu board in the screen
goes all weird

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
> > As for the firmware, there were many versions.  At one point Intel
> released
> > an upgrade package called the iMDX-511.  That added cursor-addressbility
> on
> > the integral CRT, a function key on the keyboard (replaced the RPT
> (repeat)
> > key), some shortcut key sequences, improved speed, and other things I
> can't
> > remember.  It was a standard part of the Series-II at some point, about
> the
> > same time the white one became available.
>
> I've dumped all the programmable parts from a Series II with an IPB
> (8080 main CPU board) and the IOC iMDX-511 firmware, except the IOC
> 8041A and a few soldered-in bipolar PROMs used for address decode on
> the IPB.  My firmware images are on Bitsavers:
>
>     http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/intel/MDS2/firmware/mds2.zip
>
> > I have all that rom code.  I even took a swipe at disassembling it to
> try to
> > understand it.  That was never finished, but I did make some progress.
>
> As have I.  I found that the IOC firmware has undocumented 0dh and 0eh
> commands. Command 0x0d allows the main CPU to write to arbitrary IOC
> memory, and is probably for diagnostics, but is not allowed unless IOC
> RAM location 5af4h contains the value 24h, and I haven't figured out
> how that can be made to happen, since you can't use command 0x0d to
> set it if it isn't already set.  I haven't yet figured out what
> command 0eh does.
>
> > If the 8741/8041 chip on the IOC was called the PIO (Parallel I/O) then I
> > have that rom code too.  I have a document that says the 8041 is indeed
> the
> > PIO.
>
> Yes. I'd like a copy. Can you confirm that the one you dumped is P/N
> 104566-001?
>
> > The iMDX-511 also included an enhancement to the keyboard processor.  I
> have
> > that rom code as well.
>
> 104675-001, included in the ZIP file on bitsavers.
>
> Do you have dumps of the firmware for the RPB86 and/or RPC86 8086 CPU
> boards used in the Series III?
>
> Best regards,
> Eric
>

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sun May 17 23:13:13 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:13:13 -0700
Subject: HP board id?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1431882000.49195.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1431882000.49195.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <22FBD7E278C04AD7AB54EDBF682B87A3@workshop>

Thanks another million. 
- Marc

>> Is the "HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Computers I/O Interfacing Guide"
>> (02109-90006 September 1980) available online somewhere? 
>I thought I had sent it to Al some years ago, but it's not listed.  In any 
>case, I've posted it here:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/02109-90006_Sep-1980.7z
> See chapter 5, pages 5-5 and 5-6.
> -- Dave


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sun May 17 23:42:04 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 21:42:04 -0700
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1431882000.49195.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1431882000.49195.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <8C0DF182C93A4F169B7285AF2FEF296E@workshop>

My soon to arrive HP 2112 has a 2102A memory controller and 3x 2102A cards
of 8k memory each. I suppose I could add more 2102As to fill it up the 5
remaining slots and bring it up to 64k. But the recently posted IO manual
says it can support way more - up to 1.28M. I'm not sure yet how the HP 1000
memory works. Can I put larger (>8k) capacity HP 1000 memory boards in there
to expand memory beyond 64k? Do I need to replace the memory controller with
one that matches the larger capacity cards then?
Marc


From wilson at dbit.com  Sun May 17 23:44:05 2015
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:44:05 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <20150517221622.0C09F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150517221622.0C09F18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150518044405.GA5790@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 06:16:22PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>    > Even if E11's mP feature is officially unsupported, it was a *crazy*
>    > amount of work
>
>What made it so much work? (Just curious about the technical aspects...)

Everything Johnny said is true -- the fact that the IIST docs hadn't
surfaced at the time was the biggest single problem, and dancing around
the race-condition thing with the 16-bit spin counter was a big deal
(especially when emulating a mP PDP-11 on a single-CPU PC -- so the other
CPU(s) won't respond to pokes for many milliseconds and I had to kludge a
way for CPUs to unknowingly wait for each other, which I'll bet is the
cause of the mP stability problems), but it helped that the RSX sources
are commented and I have IIST diag listings on fiche (and the binaries are
on XXDP -- for something that wasn't officially released or supported, the
11/74 sure shows up in a lot of places, including the 11M+ doc set).
And yes, sorting out booting through the IIST was quite a piece of magic.

But the hugest amount of busywork was just reworking every shred of CPU
emulation code (including the code generator that recompiles the most common
instruction cases from scripts after each SET CPU command and repopulates
the 64K dispatch table) to store all CPU/MMU/clock/SR/EAE/etc. context in a
block (it had previously scattered it all in global static storage for
everything but now it lugs tons of stuff around with each CPU), and find
all the places that have to make sure they have the pointer to that block.

Even worse was rigging all the device emulations to have a concept of which
bus they're on (for things like "set dub: bus=b" to move the second MSCP
controller onto CPB's Unibus, etc.).  That meant massaging a *ton* of code.
While I was at it I modified the concept of "default" CSRs/vectors so they
start over from scratch on each bus (Johnny was great with bouncing ideas
back and forth on that and I'm really happy with how it worked out).  As
always, you can use SET ddc: CSR=xxxxxx VEC=yyy to move them wherever you
want, but the defaults are sensible (including recalculating the "floating"
CSRs/vectors on any change) so things land where they belong 99% of the
time, within each CPU (as opposed to having CPA's instance of a controller
at the usual address but CPB's controller is at another address just
because it's the second controller, even though it's *CPB's* first
controller).  That also meant allowing the "DEFAULT" keyword for CSR=
and VEC=, and splitting out the tables so that E11 will still remember
the default values even after you've been monkeying with them (since they
might still apply on a different CPU).

I have yet to mechanize Unibi beyond D.  11M+ supports up to 16 of them
(the "URM" field in CON is a bitmap of them), with the last potential 12
being on the other sides of DT03/DT07 bus switches.  Um, I'll get to it!
It'll help if I get to understand BSDRV (there's a place where it fiddles
with memory floating above the top of the stack, which I can't imagine is
intentional).  I know there's no practical need (the point of those
switches is to dynamically move peripherals off of failed CPUs and onto
healthy ones w/o shutting the system down, and that makes no sense under
emulation -- the whole idea of the 11/74 was not speed but minimizing
downtime) but as always that's not the point!  Similarly, there's no MKA11
emulation -- it's Just Memory.  Which works fine (no need to move it around
to avoid failing CPUs) but again it'd be nice to emulate that just for
completeness.

There's also all kinds of fiddliness with having multiple (per-CPU)
versions of the event-handling queues (I/O complete, keystroke received,
timer expired, etc. etc. etc.), and ways to pass off requests (either by
enqueueing them to other CPUs or by calling a routine that appears to
"return" in another thread).  So all the places that used to make a note
to have a grown-up deal with something for us, now have to know *which*
grown-up they want to do it.

Later adding the PDP-11/45 version of mP was even more fun and not nearly
so hard.  99% of the 11/74 stuff applied;  it just needed to have a way to
have separate RAM space for each CPU, and it needed the FASTBUS: pseudo-
device since on a real PDP-11/45 it's possible to uncable the DMA interface
to one processor's local memory bus from that processor's Unibus and insert
it into the Unibus of a different processor (very weird but used in some
flight simulators).  So that's just a RAM device, but since the 11/45 does
have cache coherence, *every* write or read-modify-write instruction to
that RAM has to be protected by a lock so they won't trip each other up
(which ironically makes it much slower than regular non-"Fast" RAM, but
still faster than a real 11/45).  And I added the IPL: device since flight
simulators like to have a pair of DR11Cs or DR11Bs/DR11Ws linking the two
CPUs (and doing an all-software interprocessor link is easy).

The 11/45 mP can work totally independently too (you don't have to bother
with FASTBUS: memory blocks or IPLs connecting the processors).  At one
point I booted RSTS, RSX11M+, and RT-11 simultaneously on a *DOS* quad-core
PC (so no time-slicing at all -- and all I/O requests are passed to/from
the boot processor where the DOS calls happen), just so I could have a
giggle fit over how stupid that was.  I've found that PC MPS BIOSes are
very inconsistent though (so what gets one motherboard to kick the other
cores to life won't work on another, so DOS isn't the place to play with
mP, even though it's hilarious when it works) and I haven't tackled ACPI
yet (it's huge).

But even though it's not worth using (and mostly works only on particular
motherboards that I've tested/debugged the code on), adding support for SMP
PCs on the DOS version was another giant huge slab of work.  What I'm doing
is definitely wrong (keeping the 8259As in charge of interrupts instead of
the IOAPICs) but I have no choice since it's important that DOS (and any
loaded drivers or TSRs) have no idea what's afoot, since it's not qualified
to deal with it.  So all hardware interrupts are handled on the boot
processor (in case they end up being handled in V86 mode by a driver
outside E11, which will want to send an end-of-interrupt command to the
8259A), and all DOS/BIOS/ASPI/DPMI/Packet Driver calls are made there too
(which means there's a queueing system for moving requests from other CPUs
to the boot processor and sending the results back).

A funny side-effect of that is that DOS file I/O calls made on behalf of
CPA are blocking as usual (*why* don't supposedly modern OSes have .READC
or .WRITC for files?), but CPB and later effectively have non-blocking file
I/O since life goes on while they're waiting for CPA to finish doing its
thing and call back.  So I haven't benchmarked this but it makes sense
that a single-processor system running on CPB (with CPA sitting halted)
would have better throughput than the same system running in uniprocessor
mode (I'm talking DOS/stand-alone here -- on the other OSes it uses helper
threads to simulate non-blocking file I/O, so there's no difference between
CPA and CPB/later).

ANYWAY so it was a crazy amount of busywork, a million miles beyond just
having extra copies of R0-5/SP/PC.  And originally I thought it'd have to
be a build option in a separate version so as not to slow down the
main/official version of E11 just to support a feature virtually no one
uses, but it turns out that on current x86es, references to [EBP+nn] are
actually slightly *faster* than absolute references to DS:[nnnnnnnn] (no
matter what Intel tells us, it always seems to boil down to the # of opcode
bytes), so there's no speed penalty at all in using the SMP code for a UP
emulation.

John Wilson
D Bit

From jdbryan at acm.org  Mon May 18 00:31:10 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 01:31:10 -0400
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <8C0DF182C93A4F169B7285AF2FEF296E@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1431882000.49195.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <8C0DF182C93A4F169B7285AF2FEF296E@workshop>
Message-ID: <E1YuDdm-0002a9-0e@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Sunday, May 17, 2015 at 21:42, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> But the recently posted IO manual says it can support way more - up to
> 1.28M. 

That's correct, although the machine must be equipped with the Dynamic 
Mapping System (DMS) in order to access more than 32KW.  For the 2112, DMS 
is product number 12976A.  It consists of a card (the HP 12731A Memory 
Expansion Module) that plugs into slot 112 in the front card cage) and 
another card that contains microcode that implements the DMS instructions; 
the latter mounts to the main CPU board at the bottom of the chassis.


> I'm not sure yet how the HP 1000 memory works. Can I put larger (>8k)
> capacity HP 1000 memory boards in there to expand memory beyond 64k? 

Yes.  You can install any combination of memory boards that are compatible 
with your controller, which is the "standard performance" controller.  For 
example, I have an M-Series (2108B) with three 12747A 64K cards and two 
12998A 8K cards for a total of 208KW.


> Do I need to replace the memory controller with one that matches the
> larger capacity cards then? 

No, that's not necessary.  However, you must jumper each memory card to 
specify non-overlapping address ranges.  The "Standard Performance Memory 
Systems Installation and Service Manual" (5955-4310 April 1979) details the 
requirements; it's available from Bitsavers in the "1000" subdirectory.

                                      -- Dave


From fulivi at tiscali.it  Mon May 18 03:14:18 2015
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:14:18 +0200
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
References: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
Message-ID: <55599F5A.3060107@tiscali.it>

Hello,

as far as the IOC dumping is concerned, I've everything except the PIO
code (PIO is "A72" on IOC board and it's stamped with part number
"104566-001"). Most of the binary images I have of IOC come from an old
dump of yours (circa 2004) that I was able to download thanks to
archive.org so, if you want, I can send them back to you but you won't
find anything you don't already have. And, as Eric Smith pointed out in
another message in this thread, he already put everything on bitsavers.
On the other hand, if you have the PIO dump available, I'd like very
much to have it, please. For now the PIO in my emulator is running a
code that I wrote and that is not very "original".
Thanks.

-- F.Ulivi

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 18 03:23:53 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:23:53 +0200
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
Message-ID: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I'm about to go on a small road trip to pick up some computer gear. I'm 
curious about what I'm actually getting :)

http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/L%C3%B6fberg-haul/

I know what the Siemens and IBM things are, but:

What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?

The Alfaskop terminals, are they 3270 compatible?

Regarding the huge stack of tapes, what should I look for in order to 
identify what might be on them, is the "9270" label any clue?

I will leave the Esselte Scribona FD 20 behind, but I'm curious what it 
is? I think it may have served use on an airport, printing boarding 
passes or similar.

Regards,
Pontus.


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon May 18 03:29:36 2015
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:29:36 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505181027470.18510@linuxserv.home>

On Sun, 17 May 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then there is no reason to 
> "image"!
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then the files are all that 
> matters.

Oh man, what about deleted files? Unallocated sectors with perhaps 
interesting data? Boot sector?

> But, IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD),
> then there is NO information other than the file content on the disks.

Wrong.

Christian

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 18 03:48:00 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 09:48:00 +0100
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <02f401d09147$588c2730$09a47590$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
> Pihlgren
> Sent: 18 May 2015 09:24
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
> 
> Hi
> 
> I'm about to go on a small road trip to pick up some computer gear. I'm
> curious about what I'm actually getting :)
> 
> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/L%C3%B6fberg-haul/
> 
> I know what the Siemens and IBM things are, but:
> 
> What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?

They don't look like computer tape drives. They have notes on the side that
talk about tracks 8-14 which is odd if they were computer drives as that's
normally 9-track tape. Possibly some kind of audio recorder?

> 
> The Alfaskop terminals, are they 3270 compatible?

If the other kit is related probably not. The IBM screens are 5250 so
mid-range. I would have thought the Alfaskop were also 5250 compatible, but
then I can't find any reference to Alfaskop having made 5250 screens. If
they have co-ax connectors they are 3270 compatible, if they have twinax or
DE-9 then 5250 for S/36, S/38, AS/400.

> 
> Regarding the huge stack of tapes, what should I look for in order to
identify
> what might be on them, is the "9270" label any clue?

The other labels. "9270" looks like a tape library number, and as it also
says CA-DYNAM-T I suspect the tapes were managed by a Computer Automation
Tape Library Management program, and the only pace the content of the tapes
was recorded was in its database.

> 
> I will leave the Esselte Scribona FD 20 behind, but I'm curious what it
is? I
> think it may have served use on an airport, printing boarding passes or
> similar.
> 
> Regards,
> Pontus.

Cheers,
Dave


From djg at pdp8online.com  Sun May 17 18:48:31 2015
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 19:48:31 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=97Z2mFo_SNc0Dop+Axxb0kT7+jfidLnzpPTSnSG-mwUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=97Z2mFo_SNc0Dop+Axxb0kT7+jfidLnzpPTSnSG-mwUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150517234831.GA19595@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 09:30:59AM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote:
> 
> We received lots of comments on reforming the capacitors in the power
> supply and strong recommendations from experts to just replace them. Since
> new caps are a different physical size, and would cost about $250 we
> decided to continue with reforming the originals. We measured the voltage
> ripple on the backplanes near the power connectors.
> 
For intermittent use I have found most are still useable. I replaced two main
filter capacitors in my straight 8, none in MARCH's straight 8.
My 8/I which is similar age as a 12 has the original capacitors also.
I took some data on the capacitor reforming and final parameters.
http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe15/slides/PDP-8_Restoration.html

>    - -30.0V = -31.2V, 800 mV PTP ripple
> 
Is there a regulator on this that removes the ripple when driving
the memory? That seems really high. The straight 8 limit is 50 mV after
the regulator. Does the 12 manual give ripple limits? 
If it has the Faston 1/4 connectors I have found they can get resistive 
which can cause voltage drop or increase in ripple.

> The 800mV of ripple on the -30 is a sign that the caps in the power supply
> were not working well, and is probably too noisy for the core to work. We
> tried to measure the capacitance of the power supply capacitors using an
> ancient, but very nice, GenRad capacitor meter, but unfortunately the caps
> were too big to measure.
> 
The ripple is frequently ESR and not capacitance.

> After running the system for about four hours the ripple on the -30V was
> down to 180mV, so the capacitors are getting better. More run time will
> hopefully reduce the ripple to an acceptable level. If not, we will have to
> replace them.
> 
Interesting. I didn't think ripple would improve.


From shumaker at att.net  Sun May 17 17:40:41 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 15:40:41 -0700
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net>
Message-ID: <555918E9.4000907@att.net>

On 5/16/2015 8:32 PM, steve shumaker wrote:
> I'm looking for a tool to do a bunch of 3.5 floppy imaging using a 
> linux or a windows box.... Media is all early PC stuff.    Any 
> thoughts, comments, tools of choice?
> Is IMD the format of choice for these as well or is there something 
> else for the newer formats?
>
>
> Steve
>


Thanks all the replies!!  As usual, the comments and replies here never 
fail to both enlighten and entertain.

steve

From scaron at umich.edu  Sun May 17 17:49:06 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 18:49:06 -0400
Subject: old DEC and HP boards are claimed.
In-Reply-To: <20150517220333.2AFF4E03FE@smtp.hushmail.com>
References: <00f501d090d7$3721e140$a565a3c0$@com>
 <20150517220333.2AFF4E03FE@smtp.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXJ5Ve-+Q5tq7Qc7zEnW2s4rMBgve_Dqk=Ge9qi6LZkFw@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be happy to take any of the surplus boards you don't want and give them
a good home for cost of shipping, just let me know.

Best,

Sean


On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Kirk B Davis <kirkbdavis at hush.com> wrote:

> I nabbed these. I'm not interested in the HP cards or the 11/23 CPU's.
> I'll send them to anyone that is interested for shipping.
>
> On a side note - I'm looking for RL02 bit's (Drive, packs, cables). I'll
> pay reasonable price + shipping :-) Please contact me off list if you have
> any to spare.
>
> Kirk
>
> On May 17, 2015 at 12:25 PM, "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >All gone, that was fast J
> >
> >
> >
> >Cindy Croxton
> >
> >Electronics Plus
> >
> >1613 Water Street
> >
> >Kerrville, TX 78028
> >
> >830-792-3400 phone
> >
> >sales at elecplus.com
> >
> >AOL IM elcpls
>
>

From fulivi at gmail.com  Mon May 18 03:10:34 2015
From: fulivi at gmail.com (F.Ulivi)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:10:34 +0200
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
References: <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
Message-ID: <55599E7A.70805@tiscali.it>

Hello,

as far as the IOC dumping is concerned, I've everything except the PIO
code (PIO is "A72" on IOC board and it's stamped with part number
"104566-001"). Most of the binary images I have of IOC come from an old
dump of yours (circa 2004) that I was able to download thanks to
archive.org so, if you want, I can send them back to you but you won't
find anything you don't already have. And, as Eric Smith pointed out in
another message in this thread, he already put everything on bitsavers.
On the other hand, if you have the PIO dump available, I'd like very
much to have it, please. For now the PIO in my emulator is running a
code that I wrote and that is not very "original".
Thanks.

-- F.Ulivi

From mikolaym at yahoo.com  Mon May 18 06:07:58 2015
From: mikolaym at yahoo.com (Matthew Mikolay)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:07:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Aresco Newsletters
Message-ID: <296851578.1170653.1431947278582.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
Out of curiosity, did anybody on here subscribe to any of the newsletters published by a company called Aresco back in the late 70s and early 80s? These newsletters were VIPER (Cosmac VIP), Paper (Commodore PET), Source (Exidy Sorcerer), and Rainbow (Apple II). Aresco also published a series of books by Tom Swan titled PIPs for VIPs.
I own several issues of VIPER, but I'm still looking for copies of the others. Does anybody have these newsletters in their collection?
Matt

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon May 18 07:09:47 2015
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:09:47 +0200
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFNF-214CvPH2Y8W1VjAWN53UMKQ4XmCW7H70UiAKZxzw@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 May 2015 at 16:40, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.


No it won't -- for a start, it won't do subdirectories, nor hidden files.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May 18 08:31:26 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:31:26 -0500
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <02f401d09147$588c2730$09a47590$@gmail.com>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
 <02f401d09147$588c2730$09a47590$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5559E9AE.5060609@pico-systems.com>

On 05/18/2015 03:48 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
>> Pihlgren
>>
>> What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?
> They don't look like computer tape drives. They have notes on the side that
> talk about tracks 8-14 which is odd if they were computer drives as that's
> normally 9-track tape. Possibly some kind of audio recorder?
>
>
Right, the connector labels show 14 tracks, so while they 
use standard 1/2" computer tape, they seem to be analog data 
recorders. They also appear to have no system to start and 
stop quickly, as needed for computer drives.  I've seen 
analog recording drives that looked a lot like these before.

Jon

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 18 08:32:06 2015
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:32:06 +0100
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
References: <5558B402.20804@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <009c01d0916f$08b12990$1a137cb0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
> Sent: 17 May 2015 16:30
> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
> 
> There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably
> cheap.  Of course unknown condition.
> 
> Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some sort.
> will be using for Hercules setups.
> 
> I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone has an
> idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this w/o using the token
> ring cables, since I have what appears to be a bridge unit. I'll have to research
> that though.

Try searching on E-Bay for "token ring media filter", I found this:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291460959669

Hardly worth getting the soldering iron out for that price...

> 
> Thanks
> Jim



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 18 10:04:39 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:04:39 -0400
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <5559E9AE.5060609@pico-systems.com>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
 <02f401d09147$588c2730$09a47590$@gmail.com>
 <5559E9AE.5060609@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5144E2B7-CDE1-4A8D-8DDD-177669EFF902@comcast.net>


> On May 18, 2015, at 9:31 AM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/18/2015 03:48 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
>>> Pihlgren
>>> 
>>> What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?
>> They don't look like computer tape drives. They have notes on the side that
>> talk about tracks 8-14 which is odd if they were computer drives as that's
>> normally 9-track tape. Possibly some kind of audio recorder?
>> 
>> 
> Right, the connector labels show 14 tracks, so while they use standard 1/2" computer tape, they seem to be analog data recorders. They also appear to have no system to start and stop quickly, as needed for computer drives.  I've seen analog recording drives that looked a lot like these before.

There are 14 track computer tape drives (CDC made them) but those used 1 inch tape.

Does analog recording require tape that is designed to record more than just ones and zeroes?  Perhaps not; if FM modulation is used, that wouldn?t be such an issue.

That drive certainly doesn?t look like a computer peripheral.  The connectors look more like lab instrument cabling, or perhaps military equipment cables.

	paul



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 18 10:34:22 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 08:34:22 -0700
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <555A067E.8080903@sydex.com>

On 05/18/2015 01:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?
>
> The Alfaskop terminals, are they 3270 compatible?
>
> Regarding the huge stack of tapes, what should I look for in order to
> identify what might be on them, is the "9270" label any clue?

You may want to browse the following:

http://reel2reeltexas.com/AmpexDataBrochure.pdf

This is from about 1964, but note, in particular, the FR-1300.    I 
think you've got an instrumentation recorder.

--Chuck



From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Mon May 18 04:12:57 2015
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?windows-1252?Q?J=F6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:12:57 +0200
Subject: Large batch of DEC flip chips
In-Reply-To: <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>
References: <555488C3.9000907@t-online.de> <20150514134109.GB7545@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <5559AD19.9040905@t-online.de>

To all: I'll start negotiations now.
When I suceed and have an inventory I'll inform you all.

Joerg

Am 14.05.2015 um 15:41 schrieb Pontus Pihlgren:
>
> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 01:36:35PM +0200, J?rg Hoppe wrote:
>>
>> So question: Is there any reasonable demand for flip chips in the community?
>> And more difficult: any hint about the price I can offer?
>>
>
> There has been a few sales on ebay, look for ended auctions. I suspect blue
> flip-chips from a PDP-10 has a higher collectible value.
>
> Are you looking to get rid of the whole lot at once?
>
> /P
>
>

From jlo at ludd.ltu.se  Mon May 18 10:36:54 2015
From: jlo at ludd.ltu.se (Jon)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 17:36:54 +0200
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAKccU5bOqKBDYMkHzUBg7BkfqVQ1=2z6bm7s5gBDo28wKE_0Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm about to go on a small road trip to pick up some computer gear. I'm
> curious about what I'm actually getting :)
>
> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/L%C3%B6fberg-haul/
>
> I know what the Siemens and IBM things are, but:
>
> What system would the the Ampex Series 800B have been used with?

I think it's an airborne unit for recording flight measurements, seems
14 tracks on half-inch tape were standard. Apparently model 800 was
introduced by Ampex in 1955.

From john at forecast.name  Mon May 18 10:46:39 2015
From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:46:39 -0400
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
Message-ID: <CF4E773A-455C-44E8-A302-3FE9D5287B18@forecast.name>

CASTOR:: was the M+ group?s 11/74 housed in it?s own machine room in ZK. Since the machine hardware could be relatively easily reconfigured, POLLUX:: was reserved for when the system was running as 2 independent nodes (3+1 or 2+2 CPUs). The DECnet group had a dual processor system with node name ELROND::.

I used CASTOR:: standalone a couple of times while debugging the MP changes to the DECnet kernel code until ELROND:: became stable. Eventually, ELROND:: became the timesharing system for the DECnet-RSX group.

The lack of cache-coherency and the limited work-arounds (cache-bypass or cache flushing) meant that all the DECnet kernel code, both drivers and protocol stack, ran with cache-bypass enabled on its data PDRs. So the networking code on an MP system had lower peak performance than on a normal 11/70 although you would never notice the difference in regular operation.

  John.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 18 11:13:18 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:13:18 +0200
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <5144E2B7-CDE1-4A8D-8DDD-177669EFF902@comcast.net>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
 <02f401d09147$588c2730$09a47590$@gmail.com>
 <5559E9AE.5060609@pico-systems.com>
 <5144E2B7-CDE1-4A8D-8DDD-177669EFF902@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20150518161317.GA27158@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:04:39AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
> That drive certainly doesn?t look like a computer peripheral.  The connectors 
> look more like lab instrument cabling, or perhaps military equipment cables.
> 

There was a few military items in the lot as well. I'll ask the seller for details 
when I get there.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 18 11:16:09 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:16:09 +0200
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <555A067E.8080903@sydex.com>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE> <555A067E.8080903@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20150518161609.GB27158@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 08:34:22AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >
> >identify what might be on them, is the "9270" label any clue?
> 
> You may want to browse the following:
> 
> http://reel2reeltexas.com/AmpexDataBrochure.pdf
> 
> This is from about 1964, but note, in particular, the FR-1300.  I think you've 
> got an instrumentation recorder.
> 

That is the closest I've seen so far. thanks.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Mon May 18 11:20:09 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:20:09 +0200
Subject: ID help, Ampex tape drive and other things.
In-Reply-To: <CAKccU5bOqKBDYMkHzUBg7BkfqVQ1=2z6bm7s5gBDo28wKE_0Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150518082353.GF1874@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAKccU5bOqKBDYMkHzUBg7BkfqVQ1=2z6bm7s5gBDo28wKE_0Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150518162009.GC27158@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 05:36:54PM +0200, Jon wrote:
> 
> I think it's an airborne unit for recording flight measurements, seems
> 14 tracks on half-inch tape were standard. Apparently model 800 was
> introduced by Ampex in 1955.

The alfaskop is labled with SAS logo, the old national flight company.. perhaps 
related. The printed label on the tape drive says "replaces remote control", I 
wonder what it might be..

I think we'll have to wait until I pick it up to find out.

/P

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May 18 14:36:08 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFNF-214CvPH2Y8W1VjAWN53UMKQ4XmCW7H70UiAKZxzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFNF-214CvPH2Y8W1VjAWN53UMKQ4XmCW7H70UiAKZxzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505181120240.21379@shell.lmi.net>

It seems that each person has a unique idea of the goal(s).
There are some discrepancies in our perception of this elephant,
based on whether the interest is in information, data, or chaos,
whether the content is to be used in a different situation than
the original (including emulation systems) or reuse in a situation
identical to the original, and what level of exactitude is desirable
in reproduction.
(and, of course, I have encountered academics who would rather scan a 
photograph at 200dpi and then store with LOSSLESS compression rather
that a scan at 1200DPI stored with LOSSY compression)


>> IF they are just plain old DOS format (DD or HD), then COPY will do.

On Mon, 18 May 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
> No it won't -- for a start, it won't do subdirectories, nor hidden files.
[If just nitting, then well done!]

Well, agreed that it won't necessarily be the best choice, but that is 
implicit in "will do".
It certainly will do subdirectories, simply by including them in the 
filename.  BUT, it won't walk the tree for you; YOU have to do that.

The specific advantage of COPY "will do" is that it is an internal
command in all versions of DOS.  It is always there and available.
If for some reason you want to boot with one of those subject disks,
then it will be there, even if there are no other DOS utility programs
available on that disk.

OTOH, if you DO have a complete suite of DOS utilities, then consider 
XCOPY  (/E/S/V is good for this)  That will walk the tree.

If you have a good collection of third party utilities, then you may have 
many better choices available.

"WILL DO" is in reference to the fact that ANY time that MS-DOS is 
running, COPY is available, and "will do", even if there are other
choices that might be preferable.
NOTE: CP/M does not have such a command internal - PIP is a program
that may or may not be around when you need it.

NOTE: for both XCOPY and versions of COPY that support it,
/V  is often misdocumented as "verifies that files are copied correctly".
It does NOT confirm that the content of the destination file matches the 
content of the source file.  Instead, its sole purpose is to confirm that 
the sectors of the destination file are readable, with correct CRCs, using 
a meaning of "VERIFY" similar to the FDC command and what is done by the 
FORMAT program.


It turns out that many here are interested in DISK IMAGES, far more
so than the data on the disk, and the information that it contains.
I apologize to any and all concerned for my presumption that that
was the focus.  I tend to think of the words of the author being
what matters, rather than the overall product.  Some of that
relates to the days when the desired result was A FILE, rather
than a SET of files of which one might not even be aware of some
secondary "support" files.


And, of course, there are some people who feel that the disk is not 
adequately "archived" without all of the "forensic" content.  Some
people may have legitimate need for data far beyond the information
that the user had "saved" onto the disk.
They may want to examine deleted files, and content of sectors
that may no longer even be associated with any current or intact
deleted file.
What about off track residual content after a sector has been
rewritten? 
There may be reasons to care about what fill pattern had been used
in formatting (not always E5), and to examine the size, structure,
and content of inter-sector gaps. When a sector is rewritten, there
can be write splice glitches (hence the reason for sync fields);
are weinterested in them?
Should we care about defects on the disk, other than trying to
work around them?
We may need some of that "forensic" data if analyzing a
copy-protected or otherwise non-standard disk.
(note that I had explicitly included a caveat about "NORMAL"
and/or "plain old", since I was NOT including forensic analysis)


We all have different goal(s).
IFF our goal is to be able to "reproduce" the disk, then surely
we need to define whether we mean a "duplicate" that behaves the
same (file access), or whether we want to make it match on a lower
level - DO I NEED TO WRITE THE DUPLICATE ON A WABASH DISK??


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 18 14:57:12 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 15:57:12 -0400
Subject: 3.5 floppy imaging
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505181120240.21379@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55580BC2.5020007@att.net> <1431846412.2301.4.camel@PIV-Ubuntu>
 <55587907.8060609@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505170731440.16173@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCFNF-214CvPH2Y8W1VjAWN53UMKQ4XmCW7H70UiAKZxzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505181120240.21379@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <EF28818E-620E-4553-871C-F36169266575@comcast.net>


> On May 18, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> ...
> (and, of course, I have encountered academics who would rather scan a photograph at 200dpi and then store with LOSSLESS compression rather
> that a scan at 1200DPI stored with LOSSY compression)

And, depending on the source material and intended usage, that may be the correct decision.  The 1200 DPI JPEG scan will have compression artifacts, which may corrupt the image to the point that its intended use can no longer reliably be achieved.  Or it may be, provided the compression parameters are set correctly.  By contrast, scanned images stored with lossless (or, equivalently, no) compression have properties that are likely to be better understood and more consistent.  If you?re doing astronomy, or radiology, or other activities where small spots on the image have meaning, this sort of thing may well be important.

	paul



From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Mon May 18 15:13:49 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 23:13:49 +0300
Subject: Question about HP3000 weight
Message-ID: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>


Hello friends!

I just got another donate to my collection... It contains several items,  but the big one of this donate is HP3000 Series III! :D
Do anyone know what it weights? This one have CPU with Option 200 rack (my best guess, like some expanded IO?). And is there wheels below racks?

Ps. IBM 1800 project is going further bit by bit, all gate doors and flat cabling is assembled back where they were. More coming about this later!



- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/

 		 	   		  

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Mon May 18 15:35:58 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 16:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Question about HP3000 weight
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505181632200.3848@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Mon, 18 May 2015, Johannes Thelen wrote:

> I just got another donate to my collection... It contains several items, 
> but the big one of this donate is HP3000 Series III! :D
>
> Do anyone know what it weights? This one have CPU with Option 200 rack 
> (my best guess, like some expanded IO?). And is there wheels below 
> racks?

    Nice find - I haven't seen one since 1987.  I believe the cabinets had 
wheels, with stabilizing pads, but it's been a while.  According to the 
configuration guide:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/3000/configurationGuide/5953-0567_configGuide_Jan79.pdf

    ...the CPU bay alone weighs 790 lbs and the I/O bay (option 200) brings 
it up to 1010 lbs.  The transformers in those beasts are HEAVY.

    Bitsavers has LOTS of info on the Series III.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May 18 16:30:08 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:30:08 -0700
Subject: Question about HP3000 weight
In-Reply-To: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <555A59E0.3010200@bitsavers.org>

On 5/18/15 1:13 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:

> the big one of this donate is HP3000 Series III! :D
>

Finding software for the Series II and III has been extremely difficult
so please try to find any that was associated with the machine.




From dave at 661.org  Mon May 18 17:08:40 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 22:08:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505182202220.18855@nyx.feedle.net>


I've finished up things for a new release of Frotz, an extremely portable 
Z-machine emulator (plays Infocom games).  The Unix port is tested and 
ready to go, but I don't have real DOS hardware in working order.  Could I 
get some people to try it out and let me know how it fares?  It's compiled 
with Turbo C++ 3.0 for 16-bit DOS.  The zipfile is at 
http://661.org/if/frotz244.zip.  Source is at 
https://github.com/DavidGriffith/frotz.  Games are available at 
http://ifarchive.org/ or https://661.org/if/ (some of my games).

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From johannesthelen at hotmail.com  Mon May 18 17:11:36 2015
From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 01:11:36 +0300
Subject: Question about HP3000 weight
In-Reply-To: <555A59E0.3010200@bitsavers.org>
References: <DUB113-W70E6512440EDDB62C0A7EBCBC40@phx.gbl>,
 <555A59E0.3010200@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <DUB113-W451C1D4A180E38C5C4F38FCBC40@phx.gbl>


> Do anyone know what it weights? This one have CPU with Option 200 rack > (my best guess, like some expanded IO?). And is there wheels below > racks?
Thanks! You was faster than me, I found too that weight at last. That's light baby, comparing that IBM 1800 :D  ...and seems there is casters below.


> 
> Finding software for the Series II and III has been extremely difficult
> so please try to find any that was associated with the machine.

What I heard... there was meters and meters long shelf of 3000 documentation. But disaster hit couple years ago: sewer broke over that shelf and documentation turned to biohazard material. So... that room's content is lost for good :/

However, lets not get sad about this. Donater is school and they have there LOT of other documentation and brochures. What I found, there is lot of miscellaneous HP, Honeywell Series 16, Data General Nova, DECs documentation/brochures.  And probably there is some copies of destroyed ones. Also there is many carton boxes full of "something", so anything can be found. Like I found VAX schematics in microfilms, dated 1985. I think these would ease the pain ;)

By the way Al, I have probably something what you like to scan from that IBM find, like PPCP manuals... I'll send you list of manuals later!



- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/



> Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:30:08 -0700
> From: aek at bitsavers.org
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Question about HP3000 weight
> 
> On 5/18/15 1:13 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
> 
> > the big one of this donate is HP3000 Series III! :D
> >
> 
> Finding software for the Series II and III has been extremely difficult
> so please try to find any that was associated with the machine.
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Mon May 18 18:11:44 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 00:11:44 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 18 May 2015 22:08:40 +0000 (UTC)"
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505182202220.18855@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>

David Griffith wrote:
>
> I've finished up things for a new release of Frotz, an extremely portable 
> Z-machine emulator (plays Infocom games).  The Unix port is tested and 
> ready to go, but I don't have real DOS hardware in working order.  Could I 
> get some people to try it out and let me know how it fares?  It's compiled 
> with Turbo C++ 3.0 for 16-bit DOS.  The zipfile is at 
> http://661.org/if/frotz244.zip.  Source is at 
> https://github.com/DavidGriffith/frotz.  Games are available at 
> http://ifarchive.org/ or https://661.org/if/ (some of my games).
>

It's not what you asked for but I was curious about "extremely portable".

I downloaded the source from github onto a VMS system and unzipped it. I
started compiling relevant looking stuff in the common directory using just the
C compiler available at hand with no command qualifiers.  Attempts to link
suggested I needed more and it looked likely that the files in the dumb
directory would satisfy the unresolved externals so I compiled those too and
linked them in.  This made all the unresolveds go away.

Having read absolutely no documentation whatsoever and never so much as looked
at a Z-machine emulator before, within 17 minutes of starting from scratch, I
had an executable which was able to make a more than passable attempt at
running several of the files in the test directory.

None of the compiles produced any errors or informational messages - there
were just two warnings for pointer mismatches due to signed versus unsigned
chars in dumb_input.c.

I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely easy
to build.

> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>

Still love that sig.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From dmabry at mich.com  Mon May 18 18:55:23 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 19:55:23 -0400
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>	<55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
 <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <555A7BEB.9000906@mich.com>

Eric Smith wrote on 5/17/2015 9:34 PM:
> On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
>> As for the firmware, there were many versions.  At one point Intel released
>> an upgrade package called the iMDX-511.  That added cursor-addressbility on
>> the integral CRT, a function key on the keyboard (replaced the RPT (repeat)
>> key), some shortcut key sequences, improved speed, and other things I can't
>> remember.  It was a standard part of the Series-II at some point, about the
>> same time the white one became available.
> I've dumped all the programmable parts from a Series II with an IPB
> (8080 main CPU board) and the IOC iMDX-511 firmware, except the IOC
> 8041A and a few soldered-in bipolar PROMs used for address decode on
> the IPB.  My firmware images are on Bitsavers:
>
>      http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/intel/MDS2/firmware/mds2.zip
>
>> I have all that rom code.  I even took a swipe at disassembling it to try to
>> understand it.  That was never finished, but I did make some progress.
> As have I.  I found that the IOC firmware has undocumented 0dh and 0eh
> commands. Command 0x0d allows the main CPU to write to arbitrary IOC
> memory, and is probably for diagnostics, but is not allowed unless IOC
> RAM location 5af4h contains the value 24h, and I haven't figured out
> how that can be made to happen, since you can't use command 0x0d to
> set it if it isn't already set.  I haven't yet figured out what
> command 0eh does.

One of the enhancements in the iMDX-511 was a fast block write to the 
crt.  I'd bet that write to arbitrary IOC memory has something to do 
with that.  It was about the time that Intel released ALTER (later 
renamed AEDIT) which was a very nice screen oriented text editor.  If 
you had the 511 installed it did very fast screen writes.

>> If the 8741/8041 chip on the IOC was called the PIO (Parallel I/O) then I
>> have that rom code too.  I have a document that says the 8041 is indeed the
>> PIO.
> Yes. I'd like a copy. Can you confirm that the one you dumped is P/N 104566-001?

I have two dumps of 8041 code from two different systems.  One was a 
model 220 and the other was a 230.  All I know is that the images are 
different from each other.  I didn't record the part number.  (I created 
those files about 25 years ago...)  If you know that there were only two 
versions released, by some strange chance, then one of these must be it.

But I just checked my parts bin and I have two IOC boards (not 
completely functioning I think) that have that 104566-001 part. When I 
get a chance I can create an image, assuming I can get my eprom burner 
to run.  It worked when I put it away.  Just hoping the gremlins haven't 
taken it.

>
>> The iMDX-511 also included an enhancement to the keyboard processor.  I have
>> that rom code as well.
> 104675-001, included in the ZIP file on bitsavers.
>
> Do you have dumps of the firmware for the RPB86 and/or RPC86 8086 CPU
> boards used in the Series III?
>
> Best regards,
> Eric
>

I made two or three RPC86 boards from SBC-86/12 boards.  It wasn't very 
easy.  There were lots of wire jumpers and a few cut foils. There was a 
special PAL chip.  And, of course, the firmware.  So I have the firmware 
(or at least I have the EPROMS) for the RPC86.  To create the PAL I was 
able to copy the code from an authentic RPC86 as Intel hadn't burned the 
protection fuse.  I carefully documented all the jumpers and cut foils 
and used that documentation to make my second and third RPC86.  I will 
look for the firmware code for you. But I probably won't get to it right 
away.  Summer is here and I want to scuba dive and shoot at targets 
while the weather cooperates. :)

I sent out your Single Density ISIS-II 4.3 boot diskette today with 
Kermit on it.  It is my customization of Kermit that detects whether it 
is running on an MDS or a PDS and uses the correct I/O ports.  I find it 
most reliable at 2400 bits/second.



From dave at 661.org  Mon May 18 19:42:35 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 00:42:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505190039410.19215@nyx.feedle.net>

On Tue, 19 May 2015, Peter Coghlan wrote:

> David Griffith wrote:
>> I've finished up things for a new release of Frotz, an extremely portable 
>> Z-machine emulator (plays Infocom games).  The Unix port is tested and 
>> ready to go, but I don't have real DOS hardware in working order.  Could I 
>> get some people to try it out and let me know how it fares?  It's compiled 
>> with Turbo C++ 3.0 for 16-bit DOS.  The zipfile is at 
>> http://661.org/if/frotz244.zip.  Source is at 
>> https://github.com/DavidGriffith/frotz.  Games are available at 
>> http://ifarchive.org/ or https://661.org/if/ (some of my games).
>> 
>
> It's not what you asked for but I was curious about "extremely portable".
>
> I downloaded the source from github onto a VMS system and unzipped it. I 
> started compiling relevant looking stuff in the common directory using 
> just the C compiler available at hand with no command qualifiers. 
> Attempts to link suggested I needed more and it looked likely that the 
> files in the dumb directory would satisfy the unresolved externals so I 
> compiled those too and linked them in.  This made all the unresolveds go 
> away.
>
> Having read absolutely no documentation whatsoever and never so much as 
> looked at a Z-machine emulator before, within 17 minutes of starting 
> from scratch, I had an executable which was able to make a more than 
> passable attempt at running several of the files in the test directory.
>
> None of the compiles produced any errors or informational messages - 
> there were just two warnings for pointer mismatches due to signed versus 
> unsigned chars in dumb_input.c.
>
> I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely 
> easy to build.

Cool!  What are the details on the warnings.  I don't get them with GCC or 
TurboC.

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon May 18 19:45:57 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 19:45:57 -0500
Subject: Checkerboard pattern on a Mac Plus
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWET=3HhU02ZNVcjcwYkRdFRVdsaHjdM_k60Q=_MnCbqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnnAZ7MMduvXQ0zNn8F4KCK+fo0u4q=rZvtiYfsduskkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWET=3HhU02ZNVcjcwYkRdFRVdsaHjdM_k60Q=_MnCbqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <555A87C5.4050509@gmail.com>

On 05/15/2015 05:34 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> I've got an old Plus here myself, as well as an old
> 128/512 with a [failed] DoveSnap

I was digging through my stash of stray PCBs the other day and was rather 
surprised to find a Mac 512K board - I have no idea where it came from! :-)



From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon May 18 19:48:58 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 20:48:58 -0400
Subject: Question about HP3000 weight
Message-ID: <839c9.1a32fc1b.428be27a@aol.com>

Johannes Thelen -    and others... HP-3000 Series II?   series II??  We 
would pay handsomely  for one.
We  found our  backup archive  set of HP-3000  software -  heh heh all 
kinds of  software  including  FORUM/3000  which was a  multi user  100  
seperate boards bulletin board,   electronic  mail,  electronic  poll and voting 
system, multi user  chat   rooms...  
( this was all pre  Internet  so it  was  way   cool  back then! 
 
just  gotta   read the   tapes....  amazed...  this   grouping of  tapes   
was an off site  storage  I had  forgotten about and    re found in the  
back closet  at the house... had  not seen it in over 23 years..
 
I  am  really  hot on getting e  series II or  II  back   to have one at 
the SMECC museum here in Arizona as it was   one of  my  favorite machines but 
also  we have the    giant  plug in front panel for it that shows all 
registers  that the  customer  engineer would  bring out in a suit case to  
really  get  down and dirty....
 
We have the  series II and III interface board as well as the   HP-3000 CX  
series  interface board  which is a separate  item..  see 
http://www.smecc.org/hp/hewlet16_series_3_with_maint_panel.gif   to   see it  hooked to
HP 3000 WACC-B from U Wisconsin 
Used by Marlys Nelson -  HP-3000 Programmer Extraordinaire!  this  photo 
was  shot   after we  even had  retired the system  was using a series  48  
with  303 meg drives  I  kept in next to my desk and  would test  boards in 
it....   When the panel was   active on the  III  with users on it  it was  
fun to throw  it into single step  BEWRAHHAHHAHH!!!AA!!!
 
Ed Sharpe  Archvisit  for SMECC




In a message dated 5/18/2015 2:30:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
aek at bitsavers.org writes:

On  5/18/15 1:13 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:

> the big one of this donate  is HP3000 Series III! :D
>

Finding software for the Series II and  III has been extremely difficult
so please try to find any that was  associated with the  machine.





From oltmansg at gmail.com  Mon May 18 21:19:28 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 21:19:28 -0500
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <2D538962-6DA7-401A-A674-D91A27D1A052@gmail.com>


On May 18, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:

> 
> It's not what you asked for but I was curious about "extremely portable".
> 
> I downloaded the source from github onto a VMS system and unzipped it. I
> started compiling relevant looking stuff in the common directory using just the
> C compiler available at hand with no command qualifiers.  Attempts to link
> suggested I needed more and it looked likely that the files in the dumb
> directory would satisfy the unresolved externals so I compiled those too and
> linked them in.  This made all the unresolveds go away.
> 
> Having read absolutely no documentation whatsoever and never so much as looked
> at a Z-machine emulator before, within 17 minutes of starting from scratch, I
> had an executable which was able to make a more than passable attempt at
> running several of the files in the test directory.
> 
> None of the compiles produced any errors or informational messages - there
> were just two warnings for pointer mismatches due to signed versus unsigned
> chars in dumb_input.c.
> 
> I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely easy
> to build.

Indeed. It's been several years, but I tinkered with an after-hours project to embed Frotz in one of our products at work. It was very simple I had it working fairly well running Zork in short order with a few minor modifications. 

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon May 18 21:48:49 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 20:48:49 -0600
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <555A7BEB.9000906@mich.com>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it> <55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
 <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <555A7BEB.9000906@mich.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTP+BYhj0GhVeA1hsX7NETm=R1MgjdAQYupZmGRon2+SA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dave Mabry <dmabry at mich.com> wrote:
>> As have I.  I found that the IOC firmware has undocumented 0dh and 0eh
>> commands. Command 0x0d allows the main CPU to write to arbitrary IOC
>> memory,

> One of the enhancements in the iMDX-511 was a fast block write to the crt.
> I'd bet that write to arbitrary IOC memory has something to do with that.

No, that's command 0x0f which is documented, and can only write to
screen memory.

> I made two or three RPC86 boards from SBC-86/12 boards.  It wasn't very
> easy.

That was something I was hoping to do also, if I can't obtain an RPB
or RPC, but can obtain an 86/12A, 86/14, or 86/30.  It's encouraging
that you've confirmed that it's possible, but discouraging that it
sounds like a lot of work.

> I sent out your Single Density ISIS-II 4.3 boot diskette today with Kermit

Thanks!!!

From dave at 661.org  Tue May 19 01:51:19 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 06:51:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: <2D538962-6DA7-401A-A674-D91A27D1A052@gmail.com>
References: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
 <2D538962-6DA7-401A-A674-D91A27D1A052@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505190650380.20815@nyx.feedle.net>

On Mon, 18 May 2015, Geoff Oltmans wrote:

> On May 18, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>
>> I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely easy
>> to build.
>
> Indeed. It's been several years, but I tinkered with an after-hours 
> project to embed Frotz in one of our products at work. It was very 
> simple I had it working fairly well running Zork in short order with a 
> few minor modifications.

What was this product?  How did Frotz appear in it?


-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Tue May 19 02:23:14 2015
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:23:14 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
Message-ID: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
> The TK50 normally do not gum up. There are two problems with them, and 
> those problems have been around since day 1.
> The first one is that the heads get dirty. Cleaning with isopropanol or 
> similar with a lint-free pad solves that just fine.
> The second problem is that the tape pickup gets unhinged. Remove the 
> covers and then you can fix that easily.

So much for "YMMV": jkunz and I must have had some really bad tapes back
then at the VCFe a couple of years ago. When we tried to read them (in
a TK70, I think - does that make the difference?), they slowed down the
mechanism, produced a squealing sound and stuck to the head to the point
where in some cases the tape (carrier) broke in some cases. We did clean
the head and tape guide parts with IPA several times only to get the 
same problem again. I'm sure he can elaborate a bit more about the tapes
and the equipment used but I think I have it mostly correct.

So Long,
Arno

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue May 19 03:47:42 2015
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:47:42 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 19 May 2015 00:42:35 +0000 (UTC)"
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505190039410.19215@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01PM5KPX0VZ8007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>

David Griffith wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 2015, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>
> > David Griffith wrote:

[snip]

> >
> > None of the compiles produced any errors or informational messages - 
> > there were just two warnings for pointer mismatches due to signed versus 
> > unsigned chars in dumb_input.c.
> >
> > I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely 
> > easy to build.
>
> Cool!  What are the details on the warnings.  I don't get them with GCC or 
> TurboC.
>

$ cc /version
HP C V7.1-015 on OpenVMS Alpha V8.3
$ cc dumb_input

        dumb_discard_old_input(strlen(continued_line_chars));
...............................^
%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH1, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value
"continued_line_chars" is "unsigned char", which is not compatible with 
"const char" because they differ by signed/unsigned attribute.
at line number 252 in file
DISK$ALPHASYS:[PETER.FROTZ-MASTER.SRC.DUMB]DUMB_INPUT.C;1

  strcat(buf, read_line_buffer);
.........^
%CC-W-PTRMISMATCH1, In this statement, the referenced type of the pointer value
"buf" is "unsigned char", which is not compatible with "char" because they
differ by signed/unsigned attribute.
at line number 375 in file
DISK$ALPHASYS:[PETER.FROTZ-MASTER.SRC.DUMB]DUMB_INPUT.C;1

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May 19 05:25:46 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:25:46 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
Message-ID: <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-19 09:23, Arno Kletzander wrote:
> Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> The TK50 normally do not gum up. There are two problems with them, and
>> those problems have been around since day 1.
>> The first one is that the heads get dirty. Cleaning with isopropanol or
>> similar with a lint-free pad solves that just fine.
>> The second problem is that the tape pickup gets unhinged. Remove the
>> covers and then you can fix that easily.
>
> So much for "YMMV": jkunz and I must have had some really bad tapes back
> then at the VCFe a couple of years ago. When we tried to read them (in
> a TK70, I think - does that make the difference?), they slowed down the
> mechanism, produced a squealing sound and stuck to the head to the point
> where in some cases the tape (carrier) broke in some cases. We did clean
> the head and tape guide parts with IPA several times only to get the
> same problem again. I'm sure he can elaborate a bit more about the tapes
> and the equipment used but I think I have it mostly correct.

Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere, 
and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From martin at shackspace.de  Tue May 19 05:56:56 2015
From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:56:56 +0200
Subject: EPROM dumps for HP Draftmaster II 7596A
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnJOemq_cu4kiw3EHYW-RYO3hmrvr69bNZ+kqMvBDfHTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150418101451.GA2066@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkkuRmcTdO5woetJZNFsC4DJE7EFJoEWMCPzWj73i1hog@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150425151226.GA12@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimk+-xocLiG+SoD6zW=W-QSJLL8iS57-dAZtpp6R4XFsrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150509154703.GA15299@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
 <CAALmimkijsX6pU8yGMuj=GB-CsA0qUHP=M8+Pm5tUxKYa+vsrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnJOemq_cu4kiw3EHYW-RYO3hmrvr69bNZ+kqMvBDfHTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150519105656.GA54@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

Hi Ethan!

Ethan Dicks:
(...)
> I looked at the machine today - unfortunately, it's sealed up with
> torx and I didn't have the right tools with me.  Also, I'm not sure
> what panels I have to remove to get fast access to where the EPROMs
> are.  Can you send a photo of where the board is located?  I haven't
> found a link to a service manual, but that would be helpful too, if
> there's one out there.

Jocki (the guy engaged in repairing the Draftmaster) sent me this link:

http://dojoe.net/shack/7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf

I haven't been in the shackspace (our local hackerspace) for weeks, but
I disassembled the housing for the controller board years ago to take
photos of the electronic, but I didn't document the disassembling itself.
I remember that it was not necessary to diassemble it completely to have
a look inside. I think, Jocki can tell you some details.

Jocki is not on the list. So I'd like to redirect the discussion to him
via PM. Is this ok?

regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin Peters
martin.peters at news.uni-stuttgart.de

From oltmansg at gmail.com  Tue May 19 06:38:22 2015
From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 06:38:22 -0500
Subject: DOS Frotz testing request
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505190650380.20815@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <01PM513SKT1K007L1Y@beyondthepale.ie>
 <2D538962-6DA7-401A-A674-D91A27D1A052@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505190650380.20815@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <6B8F4C45-859F-4EA9-8160-2ED2B831C043@gmail.com>

This was mainly a fun project using one of our products at work as a mental exercise. It never actually shipped in production code. It was for a DSLAM (used to provide DSL internet service).

Geoff


On May 19, 2015, at 1:51 AM, dave at 661.org wrote:

> On Mon, 18 May 2015, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
> 
>> On May 18, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd say extremely portable is a valid description.  It's also extremely easy
>>> to build.
>> 
>> Indeed. It's been several years, but I tinkered with an after-hours project to embed Frotz in one of our products at work. It was very simple I had it working fairly well running Zork in short order with a few minor modifications.
> 
> What was this product?  How did Frotz appear in it?
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From dave at mitton.com  Tue May 19 10:47:08 2015
From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:47:08 -0400
Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1431968401.75666.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1431968401.75666.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.26.1432052439.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

RE: Token Ring

    As said below, you can probably not worry too much about the 
wiring impedance (etc.) for a small ring.
But you will still need a MAU or something like it.

The token ring adapters have a physical layer protocol for ring 
insertion and token monitoring.
The power-up state for a station wire is a physical loopback and it 
will try to successfully loop itself before inserting.

A copy of the newsgroup comp.dcom.lans.token-ring FAQ still lives at 
http://www.networkuptime.com/faqs/token-ring/index.shtml
Connector pinouts and other info is in there.   Stuff on Wikipedia too.

I had to dust off a few neurons to remember this stuff.
Dave.

I'm not reading this list consistently anymore... any direct 
questions should be CCed to me.

On 5/18/2015 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 12:58:20 -0400
>From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>         <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>Cc: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>
>Subject: Re: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring
>         wiring)
>Message-ID:
>         <CAA43vkUJ7US+72OiYhEtrvOgM76u0tUv55wqAP65R21otLkbEg at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>I can tell you from firsthand experience that if you're just doing short
>little runs within a vintage computer room in your home or something like
>that, you can directly pin the 9-pin D-sub over to 8P8C and make short runs
>with common unshielded Cat V cable and it should work fine. I did this all
>the time when I was in high school to connect old MCA PS/2 machines with
>the IBM token ring adapters (9 pin D-sub) to various old 8P8C MAUs that I
>had acquired. I can't speak to dealing with those funky IBM connectors;
>never worked with those.
>
>Best,
>
>Sean
>
>
>On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> > jwsmobile
> > > Sent: 17 May 2015 16:30
> > > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> > > Topic Posts
> > > Subject: Weird stuff has a TI 810 (also if anyone has token ring wiring)
> > >
> > > There is a white cased TI 810 at Weird Stuff in the AS IS room. Probably
> > > cheap.  Of course unknown condition.
> > >
> > > Got some very nice Token ring equipment from an IBM facility of some
> > sort.
> > > will be using for Hercules setups.
> > >
> > > I'll need some balun's for the RJ45 (ibm version) to the DB9 if anyone
> > has an
> > > idea of the hookup.  I'd like to figure out if I can wire this w/o using
> > the token
> > > ring cables, since I have what appears to be a bridge unit. I'll have to
> > research
> > > that though.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Jim
> >
> > Jim,
> >  Is there a part number on the "bridge" unit? Typically the IBM units just
> > switch the stations it and out of the ring.
> > Dave
> >
> >


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue May 19 15:03:55 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 13:03:55 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
Message-ID: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>

I've been brainstorming about hypothetical hardware for converting video from vintage 8-bit computers to drive modern monitors well, with support for all of the dirty tricks like color aliasing that many of them used. One of the things I would like to understand is the range of RF frequencies used by the machines that connected to ordinary televisions. 

My old Color Computer used US VHF channels 3 or 4 for NTSC video. I found a reference to the ZX Spectrum using UK UHF channel 35 for PAL video. 

What other channels were used all over the world by 8-bit home computers (and video games, too, I suppose), and which TV standards were used with them?


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Tue May 19 15:40:41 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 13:40:41 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>

On May 19, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

> My old Color Computer used US VHF channels 3 or 4 for NTSC video. I found a reference to the ZX Spectrum using UK UHF channel 35 for PAL video. 

My NTSC ZX81 uses US UHF 34/35.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue May 19 15:46:13 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 13:46:13 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>



> On May 19, 2015, at 13:40, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> My NTSC ZX81 uses US UHF 34/35.

Thanks! Added to my list.

Did anything use US VHF channel 2? I can't recall whether I have seen that used before, but I have a feeling that I might have. 

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue May 19 15:47:02 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 20:47:02 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>,
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > My old Color Computer used US VHF channels 3 or 4 for NTSC video. I found a reference to the ZX Spectrum 
> > using UK UHF channel 35 for PAL video.
> 
> My NTSC ZX81 uses US UHF 34/35.

Most, if not, all home computers sold to connect to TVs in the UK were set to use our UHF channel 36. They
normally used an Astec modulator unit, and a careful tweak of the oscillator coil core would move them onto
other channels. 

VHF channels were not used for broadcast 625 line TV in the UK, and most TVs could not tune to them. So you
will not find a UK home computer using VHF RF output.

-tony

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue May 19 16:46:26 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:46:26 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <F3BF3D83-0B1B-48EB-A2CB-B7EF1BA93549@nf6x.net>



> On May 19, 2015, at 13:47, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Most, if not, all home computers sold to connect to TVs in the UK were set to use our UHF channel 36.

> VHF channels were not used for broadcast 625 line TV in the UK, and most TVs could not tune to them. So you
> will not find a UK home computer using VHF RF output.

Thanks! Those are the sorts of details that are hard to know with only my US computer/TV experience. 

That NTSC ZX-81 is the first I have heard of a computer with UHF TV output in the U.S., but it makes sense to minimize the hardware changes for the U.S. market. Might have used the same modulator, possibly with a coil adjusted a bit differently in the factory. 

Native US gear was all VHF in my experience. Usually switchable between channels 3 and 4 to avoid whichever channel had a strong local station, and also commonly using an Astec modulator. I still have a nagging feeling that I might have seen something with channel 2 output, but can't remember where I think I saw it. 

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Tue May 19 16:57:30 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:57:30 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>


On May 19, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> Did anything use US VHF channel 2? I can't recall whether I have seen that used before, but I have a feeling that I might have. 

The NTSC Atari 2600 switches between 2 & 3.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue May 19 16:59:54 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:59:54 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
 <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUy6mcwQJdowyMfe4vdNrnVDxLz-SNnZyOXcx53jOvET=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:

>
> The NTSC Atari 2600 switches between 2 & 3.


As do the TRS-80 CoCos, if I'm not mistaken.

Kyle

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 19 17:18:02 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191515270.25135@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 19 May 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> My old Color Computer used US VHF channels 3 or 4 for NTSC video. I 
> found a reference to the ZX Spectrum using UK UHF channel 35 for PAL 
> video.
> What other channels were used all over the world by 8-bit home computers 
> (and video games, too, I suppose), and which TV standards were used with 
> them?

About 90% of the stuff sold in USA used VHF 3, or VHF 3&4 switchable.

The Sup'R'Mod II used UHF 34.  It was significant in its popularity with 
early Apple ][, and apparently (based solely on the keyed 4-pin 
Berg connector) was what was considered in the design of CGA.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 19 17:19:44 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191518271.25135@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 19 May 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Did anything use US VHF channel 2? I can't recall whether I have seen 
> that used before, but I have a feeling that I might have.

Certainly POSSIBLE.  But channel 2 tends to be occupied in MOST places.
3 was used by VCRs, etc, and 3&4 switchable just in case a community had 
an active station on 3.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 19 17:22:54 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUy6mcwQJdowyMfe4vdNrnVDxLz-SNnZyOXcx53jOvET=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
 <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
 <CAKtEYUy6mcwQJdowyMfe4vdNrnVDxLz-SNnZyOXcx53jOvET=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191522050.25135@shell.lmi.net>

>> The NTSC Atari 2600 switches between 2 & 3.

On Tue, 19 May 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:
> As do the TRS-80 CoCos, if I'm not mistaken.

3/4 for the ones intended for USA.  Other options might have been 
available for export models.



From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue May 19 17:24:49 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 17:24:49 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191522050.25135@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
 <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
 <CAKtEYUy6mcwQJdowyMfe4vdNrnVDxLz-SNnZyOXcx53jOvET=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191522050.25135@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzuq4ZcqXgtAtsMqUZMTD21uorZtFi0Hnq7OC0A=Hzp9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> The NTSC Atari 2600 switches between 2 & 3.
>>>
>>
> On Tue, 19 May 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:
>
>> As do the TRS-80 CoCos, if I'm not mistaken.
>>
>
> 3/4 for the ones intended for USA.  Other options might have been
> available for export models.
>

My bad, yes. And I see this has already been discussed...

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 19 17:33:31 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>,
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191529360.25135@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 19 May 2015, tony duell wrote:
> Most, if not, all home computers sold to connect to TVs in the UK were 
> set to use our UHF channel 36.

In San Francisco bay area, including Silicon Valley, there was a very 
strong independent station on 36.
On 32? there was an insane? speed-freak? preacher ranting biblical 
conspiracy theories, etc. 24/7

But those two strong signals made it easier to find the 34 of the 
Sup'R'ModII


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 19 17:51:05 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191529360.25135@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>,
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191529360.25135@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191547380.25135@shell.lmi.net>

> But those two strong signals made it easier to find the 34 of the Sup'R'ModII

Note that in those days, TVs had KNOBS!
VHF had individual click detents, with a "fine tuning" analog knob that 
would take you almost to what you wanted to tune.
UHF didn't even have detents, with a continuous analog knob (one coarse, 
one fine) from 14 to 83.

Very soon after that, TVs started to have digital channel selection,
and "Don't touch that knob!" became an anachronism.

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue May 19 18:14:33 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:14:33 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <6101F112-B6C1-4628-97D1-84AA07EB4B1A@nf6x.net>
 <698CB260-6FEC-467D-B426-6949A3EB9606@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <6EE73D11-930F-42F1-8B84-40B00FD20D4B@nf6x.net>



> On May 19, 2015, at 14:57, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 19, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Did anything use US VHF channel 2? I can't recall whether I have seen that used before, but I have a feeling that I might have.
> 
> The NTSC Atari 2600 switches between 2 & 3.

Thanks! I'm pretty sure that a 2600 is where I saw channel 2 used, then. 

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 19 18:17:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:17:45 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191529360.25135@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>,
 <751B4665-8BF8-4C1B-AACF-61D64A85E0C6@fozztexx.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C3EEA@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505191529360.25135@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <555BC499.7030604@sydex.com>

On 05/19/2015 03:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> In San Francisco bay area, including Silicon Valley, there was a very
> strong independent station on 36.

Ah, yes, the Carol Doda station.

Ever been to the Condor?

(Miss Doda would be 77 now)

--Chuck



From jws at jwsss.com  Tue May 19 19:09:29 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 17:09:29 -0700
Subject: Olivetti Programma 101 article (In Italian)
Message-ID: <555BD0B9.40203@jwsss.com>

http://blog.startupitalia.eu/p101-make-in-italy-de-sandre-olivetti-intervista/

There is a museum in Ivrea with the Programma 101 on display.  I think 
some of the photos from modern times were from there.

This article is related to a maker fair in Trieste.  Please visit the 
page for pictures and to give them page clicks, since I am archiving the 
info here for the list.

Thanks
Jim

Google translated from article:

The engineer of the legendary P101: "Here are the secrets of the first 
Pc of history"

The Mini Maker Faire Trieste meeting with the engineer De Sandre, one of 
the creators of the program 101 Olivetti: the first personal computer 
will be among the stars of the show to Make In italy Expo (from May 18).

Last October, in the Maker Faire Rome , was presented the exhibition "50 
years of Italian innovations: from P101 to the first espresso machine 
space". An exhibition, organized by the Foundation Make in Italy , which 
now arrives in Milan Expo 2015. From today, in fact, can be seen, in an 
expanded version of the original, in two locations in which it was 
divided: Telecom Italian pavilion within the exhibition center in Rho 
and the National Museum of Science and Technology of the Lombard capital.

The prototype of the P101 ( Program 101 ), recognized as the first 
desktop computers in history, made ??his international debut at the 
World Exhibition in Paris in 1965. The team, led by Pier Giorgio 
Perotto, devised an instrument that had some features that still they 
form the basis of any personal computer: CPU with discrete components, 
RAM (magnetostrictive delay line), mass storage (magnetic card) and 
serial printer to impact.

Within the team of Perotto was a young engineer, Giovanni De Sandre. 
Matthew Tro?a met him at the second edition of the Mini Maker Faire 
Trieste to talk with him about the success of the P101 (and many other 
things).
The interview

How did your story with Olivetti?

I entered into Olivetti April 1, 1960, after the previous talks that had 
established my eligibility in that company. I even received the head of 
the laboratory at the time, the engineer Mario Tchu , who was the son of 
a Chinese ambassador to Vatican. Tchu had specialized in the United 
States, and this greatly pleased to Adriano Olivetti , who cast him in 
his team. That time I had just graduated, fresh from Politecnico di 
Milano, and you think, now my degree is equivalent to a degree in 
electrical engineering, but at the time did not exist in this 
formulation, so I got a degree in electrical engineering with a 
"certificate studies of electronics. "

So she was received by engineer Tchu, who then assumed?

The engineer Tchu was a very friendly, helpful and friendly. He 
explained all the activities of the laboratories, mostrandomeli one by 
one and explaining with great patience and care that what took place in 
those places. In the end I remember that I said, "then engineer, she is 
interested in what more? One thing in production or in the project? "And 
I said a little 'afraid' to me honestly like to work on projects ...". 
Tchu then he asked again, "but she would like to work on the evolution 
and improvement of our existing products or instead of entirely new 
products?" And then I said that without wishing to presumptuous, I would 
have loved work on projects entirely new.

The engineer Tchu picked up the phone, called the engineer Perotto and 
said "dear engineer, I have here a person that suits her." That phrase 
always decided for my professional future. I went well in the working 
group of engineer Perotto, who was my direct responsibility even though 
he was only a few years older than me. Perotto was a nice person, of 
great culture and technical ability. He had a spontaneous orientation 
toward the concrete. I was very lucky because I was thrust into an 
almost idyllic. In the Olivetti corporate hierarchy was not seen as an 
imposition, not weighed. The leaders were, but they respected because it 
was natural respect. People were so influential that respect for them 
was spontaneous. I found an atmosphere of great freedom, but also of 
great involvement. If I had a problem it was enough to ask for help and 
I was listening. My problems and my gaps I filled asking. I learned a 
lot while I worked.

What he is initially occupied?

The first thing I worked were checks magnetic, which still bear the 
bottom two spaces wider than three a little 'closer. The location of 
these areas determines the reading code. The machine that read these 
codes had designed Perotto and I was in charge of setting up, checking 
its operation, and connecting it to an existing machine Olivetti. Within 
six months I had accomplished something.

And then the P101 ...

Work began on the P101 with a deep study of the feasibility of the 
product, initially purely theoretical. We wanted to create a car that 
was not limited only to make four simple steps that already did with the 
mechanical machines. Then produce mechanical machines cost 39,000 lire, 
but then were sold to 390 thousand pounds. For Olivetti invest in this 
product would not bring the expected revenue. We had to do something to 
level a little 'higher. So we started working on the prototype of the P101.

We did not know that the machine had to create, in the sense that there 
was still nothing like it on the market. However for me the bonds were 
crystal clear: it had to be easy to use, accessible to a 
non-professional user. Accessibility was to be the characteristic trait. 
In the second place it had to be reduced in size. Finally it would cost 
as little as possible. Led by engineer Perotto, then, we started working 
on this electronic project. So the first thing to do was to decide the 
type of memory to be installed in the machine. Of course we had the 
opportunity to go to the store and choose from dozens of memories at our 
disposal. In those years there were very few memories. In particular 
there was the core memory , but was not good for the small size of our 
future machine. The engineer Perotto I knew immediately, I'm a bit 
'after. (Laughs) After a study of the type of memory to choose from we 
focused on a type of memory of the past generation, which had been 
abandoned by now (working memory was a magnetostrictive delay line ). 
The technology of the time gave us memories that were not going to 
respect the constraints that we had set, so we used the components of 
the past, to make the "car of the future".

The revolutionary products as was the P101, they appreciate when they 
are ready. Behind their implementation but there is always a big job. 
How much have you been working on this project?

We got to work with his head down, day and night, often without 
realizing that had arrived the weekend. In some periods there was no 
agreement on Sunday as a day of rest. There were no arrears with whom to 
spend the afternoon. All this does not remember it as a burden, but as 
the most exciting period of my life. We had to finish first. I think 
that needs to come first in some things, that does not mean overdoing 
it, but engage and expend maximum to achieve their goals. Running behind 
is far worse than through the air.

He never felt the weight of fatigue in what he did?

There was no concept of fatigue for us. It was completely overcome by 
the interest that was for what we were doing. We felt a bit 'pioneers in 
a world where we often designed parts of electronic circuits, but never 
a car full. We proceeded by trial and error, but they hand it proceeded 
increased experience.

Chapter Innovation

What about her?

Innovation has to have some unmet need. To return to my story, I believe 
that the fact of working at P101, was not immediately something 
innovative. For me initially was mainly a strong need. If I think back 
to when the University did the calculations with the ruler with which 
often was wrong, the idea that you could create a machine that would 
help me with extreme speed and precision to make those calculations, for 
me was the solution to my real need . Need to be put together with some 
technical expertise required to carry out in practice his idea.

Innovation means want to go into the unexplored wilderness, hoping to 
find an oasis, a solution but we were not ready, but we have done us.

Italy is a country still able to accept the technology?

When there is something really innovative, I do not know if Italy is the 
best country in which to tell this innovation. From this point of view, 
perhaps the United States is a country more ready mentally, more 
pragmatic and more accustomed to understand the news. But this happens 
only in the initial phase. Olivetti also initially was little more than 
an island than the rest of the country. A lot of people did not even 
know that there was this company.

But I believe that the issue on which we must reason is as follows. 
Today the world has certainly changed and we are used to accept anything 
new very easily. The challenge is to understand what, in this chaos of 
new, really creates innovation, understood as making something useful 
for our lives. What really affects our lives? That is, if what we invent 
or we make an impact in a way that is not obvious, trivial, obvious, 
then maybe other countries are more receptive, but Italy certainly not 
least, because of quality products makes many as he wants. The important 
thing, as I said, you know what, among the many new features, it's 
really helpful to improve their lives.

He would redo everything you did?

Yes absolutely. Though I speak with hindsight. One can not always 
project her life and does not know what may happen in the future. 
Certainly more than the experience in Olivetti itself, I would like to 
relive the spirit of those years, that basically was a spirit extremely 
positive, optimistic, enthusiastic. From my experience I have learned 
that critical is the commitment and self-criticism, that a little 
'lacking nowadays. Innovation also means being confident, determined and 
feed their inner spring. It helps a lot to be introduced in the 
technology world, especially now that has become pervasive. Everything 
comes from a right balance between a strong driving force and a large 
capacity that criticism must regulate itself within us.

What did you learn from your experience?

That we must never stand still. But think of Steve Jobs! What has to do 
what he did? It's not that he invented something. What made the 
difference, however, was its continuity, his desire to fight, his steely 
character, which allowed him to transform a company that was going to 
fail in company we know today. What did Jobs? In fact did what many 
others did, but of course with an attention to detail and some aspects 
that have allowed him to make a difference. Today, companies ride the 
wave for a couple of years and when they feel it is necessary to 
reinvent itself give up and sit down. Steve Jobs? More than sitting! 
That one had the pins under the seat which put him constantly on the 
move. He never lies and never gave up, and certainly helped him a lot of 
his character. Today we have to stay on the move, never sit down, 
because innovation is moving.

16/05/2015

Matthew Tro?a & Alessandro Frau

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue May 19 20:38:01 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 03:38:01 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/74 MP
In-Reply-To: <CF4E773A-455C-44E8-A302-3FE9D5287B18@forecast.name>
References: <CF4E773A-455C-44E8-A302-3FE9D5287B18@forecast.name>
Message-ID: <555BE579.1020805@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-18 17:46, John Forecast wrote:
> CASTOR:: was the M+ group?s 11/74 housed in it?s own machine room in ZK. Since the machine hardware could be relatively easily reconfigured, POLLUX:: was reserved for when the system was running as 2 independent nodes (3+1 or 2+2 CPUs). The DECnet group had a dual processor system with node name ELROND::.
>
> I used CASTOR:: standalone a couple of times while debugging the MP changes to the DECnet kernel code until ELROND:: became stable. Eventually, ELROND:: became the timesharing system for the DECnet-RSX group.
>
> The lack of cache-coherency and the limited work-arounds (cache-bypass or cache flushing) meant that all the DECnet kernel code, both drivers and protocol stack, ran with cache-bypass enabled on its data PDRs. So the networking code on an MP system had lower peak performance than on a normal 11/70 although you would never notice the difference in regular operation.

Thanks for the corrections and clarifications, John. I think I've heard 
this before, but my memory is constantly failing me.

Also, nice work! The DECnet code works just fine in MP.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Tue May 19 19:20:11 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 17:20:11 -0700
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
Message-ID: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>

That just sounds wrong to me applying +25v to do a read/verify.  You're
misinterpreting the datasheets. Richard

From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Tue May 19 20:00:58 2015
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 21:00:58 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
References: <DM2PR0501MB1664B03C984FCFB6A50D48ECD2D50@DM2PR0501MB1664.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <58AFA4FB0F2B4D07AC5F921563060FA2@OptiplexGX620>

The serial number can be broken into 3 areas...

The first two digits indicate the country of Manufacture


AY = Ayr, Scotland
BK = Germany
GA = Galway, Ireland
IQ = Somewhere else
NI = Salem, New Hampshire, USA
PC = Irvine, Scotland
KA = Kanata, Ontario, Canada
CX = Colorado Springs, CO, USA
WF = Westfield, MA, USA
AB = Albuquerque, NM, USA

The 3rd Digit indicates the year


7 = 1997       8 = 1998        9 = 1999        etc.


The 4th & 5th digits indicate the week of manufacture from
January.


01 = 1st week in January
12 = 12th week after January 1st (End of March)
20 = Mid April
For a rough calculate take 4 weeks to the month


The remaining digits indicate the run number.


00005 =        The 5th one made at this plant
00100 =        The 100th one made at this plant

>From the fog in my head...

Dan Snyder, Butler, PA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Rubin" <j at ckrubin.us>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 5:25 PM
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?


Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured a specific piece of 
equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard, Massachusetts label on my 
equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC Kanata, Canada on flipchip 
handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on computers built in Puerto Rico.

Can anyone supply any more extensive and/or detailed information?

Thanks,
Jack 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Tue May 19 22:09:35 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 21:09:35 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT6EVi3T7y4b6rXPxyO0LQhoQvxc_CH5HEm579wsrR+fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Richard B. Main, Esq.
<mainpatents at gmail.com> wrote:
> That just sounds wrong to me applying +25v to do a read/verify.  You're
> misinterpreting the datasheets. Richard

It may "sound wrong", but that's actually the *only* way to read the
EPROM 8741, 8741A, 8748, and 8749. If you don't apply high voltage to
the EA pin, it doesn't go into verify mode.  It's fully documented in
the data sheet, and I've verified that commercial programmers do that.
It's possible that verification will work at somewhat less than 25V,
but it definitely does NOT work at under 6V.

The issue is that the 8041, 8041A, 8048, and 8049 masked-ROM parts are
not rated for 25V on EA.  The 8748 and 8749 datasheets say to use 12V
on EA.  The 8041 and 8041A datasheets don't say, but since it's almost
the same design and definitely the same fab process as the 8048, I'm
pretty sure that they need 12V also.

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed May 20 00:21:42 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 01:21:42 -0400
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC equipment?
Message-ID: <10d9de.5c561618.428d73f7@aol.com>

be aware there was a DEC  terminal plant here in phx az   late  70s  early  
80s
 
Ed Sharpe  archivist  for SMECC  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 5/19/2015 9:53:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ddsnyder at zoominternet.net writes:

The  serial number can be broken into 3 areas...

The first two digits  indicate the country of Manufacture


AY = Ayr, Scotland
BK =  Germany
GA = Galway, Ireland
IQ = Somewhere else
NI = Salem, New  Hampshire, USA
PC = Irvine, Scotland
KA = Kanata, Ontario, Canada
CX  = Colorado Springs, CO, USA
WF = Westfield, MA, USA
AB = Albuquerque,  NM, USA

The 3rd Digit indicates the year


7 = 1997   8 = 1998        9 = 1999     etc.


The 4th & 5th digits indicate the week of  manufacture from
January.


01 = 1st week in January
12 = 12th  week after January 1st (End of March)
20 = Mid April
For a rough  calculate take 4 weeks to the month


The remaining digits indicate  the run number.


00005 =        The 5th one made  at this plant
00100 =        The 100th one made at this  plant

>From the fog in my head...

Dan Snyder, Butler,  PA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Rubin"  <j at ckrubin.us>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, May  01, 2015 5:25 PM
Subject: Place of manufacture for DEC  equipment?


Is there a way to identify which DEC plant manufactured  a specific piece 
of 
equipment? I'm certainly aware of the Maynard,  Massachusetts label on my 
equipment and I'm pretty sure I've seen DEC  Kanata, Canada on flipchip 
handles. Maybe even PR serial numbers on  computers built in Puerto Rico.

Can anyone supply any more extensive  and/or detailed information?

Thanks,
Jack  



From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed May 20 01:12:23 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 23:12:23 -0700
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1431968400.75666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1431968400.75666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <DBF495B766964FBC86EEC986597660DC@workshop>

Thanks, very useful info, and the manual is indeed what I was missing. But
now where to find the DMS, with two cards in particular, that's not going
easy to find both that match...

>> ...the recently posted IO manual says it can support ... up to
>> 1.28M. 

>From: "J. David Bryan" <jdbryan at acm.org>
>That's correct, although the machine must be equipped with the Dynamic 
>Mapping System (DMS) in order to access more than 32KW.  For the 2112, DMS 
>is product number 12976A.  It consists of a card (the HP 12731A Memory 
>Expansion Module) that plugs into slot 112 in the front card cage) and 
>another card that contains microcode that implements the DMS instructions; 
>the latter mounts to the main CPU board at the bottom of the chassis...
>The "Standard Performance Memory
>Systems Installation and Service Manual" (5955-4310 April 1979) details the

>requirements; it's available from Bitsavers in the "1000" subdirectory.
> -- Dave


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed May 20 00:28:27 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 01:28:27 -0400
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
References: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT6EVi3T7y4b6rXPxyO0LQhoQvxc_CH5HEm579wsrR+fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F7EC75C5B3445FD96B3C370564D6599@310e2>

My 8041A/8641A/8741A data sheet says
"interchangeable ROM and EPROM Versions", "Single
5V Supply" and "Vdd (Power): 5V during normal
operation".

I'm pretty sure I've read 8741s without any 25V
supply; AFAIK Verify mode is not the same as Read 
('normal') mode.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2


> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Richard B.
> Main, Esq.
> <mainpatents at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That just sounds wrong to me applying +25v to
>> do a read/verify.  You're
>> misinterpreting the datasheets. Richard
>
> It may "sound wrong", but that's actually the
> *only* way to read the
> EPROM 8741, 8741A, 8748, and 8749. If you don't
> apply high voltage to
> the EA pin, it doesn't go into verify mode.
> It's fully documented in
> the data sheet, and I've verified that
> commercial programmers do that.
> It's possible that verification will work at
> somewhat less than 25V,
> but it definitely does NOT work at under 6V.
>
> The issue is that the 8041, 8041A, 8048, and
> 8049 masked-ROM parts are
> not rated for 25V on EA.  The 8748 and 8749
> datasheets say to use 12V
> on EA.  The 8041 and 8041A datasheets don't say,
> but since it's almost
> the same design and definitely the same fab
> process as the 8048, I'm
> pretty sure that they need 12V also.


From orgwood at iaxs.net  Wed May 20 01:33:36 2015
From: orgwood at iaxs.net (Original Woodworks)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 01:33:36 -0500
Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what
Message-ID: <auto-000025108644@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I was an Intel salesman and have this board...I have lots of docs, 
serial monitor, chess PROMs but no keyboard monitors.  Do you have 
the BIN files for them to fit in 2716s?  I can scan, copy eproms, 
anything to help you if you can help me.  Thanks, Dave

http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-January/002410.html

http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/

http://www.intel-vintage.info/apps/blog/

Original Woodworks
4631 Lake Ave., White Bear Lake, MN 55110
By appointment only!
(651) 429-2222
www.originalwoodworks.com
orgwood at iaxs.net 


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed May 20 04:15:05 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 06:15:05 -0300
Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what
In-Reply-To: <auto-000025108644@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000025108644@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKStn6j=UYDzV8+7aT3RT2K9fxuexbzwdKjdJCWezkOZ5w@mail.gmail.com>

These docs would be great to have then archived...

enviado do meu telemovel
Em 20/05/2015 05:10, "Original Woodworks" <orgwood at iaxs.net> escreveu:

> I was an Intel salesman and have this board...I have lots of docs, serial
> monitor, chess PROMs but no keyboard monitors.  Do you have the BIN files
> for them to fit in 2716s?  I can scan, copy eproms, anything to help you if
> you can help me.  Thanks, Dave
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-January/002410.html
>
> http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/
>
> http://www.intel-vintage.info/apps/blog/
>
> Original Woodworks
> 4631 Lake Ave., White Bear Lake, MN 55110
> By appointment only!
> (651) 429-2222
> www.originalwoodworks.com
> orgwood at iaxs.net
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>

From nw at retroComputingTasmania.com  Wed May 20 04:19:00 2015
From: nw at retroComputingTasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:19:00 +1000
Subject: Proud owner of a SDK-86, now what
In-Reply-To: <auto-000025108644@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000025108644@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdziNE9M5x5DO2EznBtR0qwxXhAS1zP8ern-9X9uBaZByw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Original Woodworks <orgwood at iaxs.net> wrote:
> I was an Intel salesman and have this board...I have lots of docs, serial
> monitor, chess PROMs but no keyboard monitors.

Are you able to share the chess PROMs please? were these developed
specifically for the SDK-86 or ported from another implementation?

From dmabry at mich.com  Wed May 20 03:53:34 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 04:53:34 -0400
Subject: ROM dumps of Intel MDS-2 IOC
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <54E34DDB.8070001@tiscali.it>	<55592CF1.4070607@mich.com>
 <CAFrGgTRLXe34SrNENwGqkqTxMhXO7HequNmRDCgbp-ZSzD3dyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <555C4B8E.8040704@mich.com>

Eric Smith wrote on 5/17/2015 9:34 PM:

> As have I. I found that the IOC firmware has undocumented 0dh and 0eh 
> commands. Command 0x0d allows the main CPU to write to arbitrary IOC 
> memory, and is probably for diagnostics, but is not allowed unless IOC 
> RAM location 5af4h contains the value 24h, and I haven't figured out 
> how that can be made to happen, since you can't use command 0x0d to 
> set it if it isn't already set. I haven't yet figured out what command 
> 0eh does. Best regards, Eric 

Perhaps this document will be of use.  I don't think I've passed it 
along.  At one time I had a pretty good source for internal 
information.  Friends who worked in the development teams...

Dave


From billdeg at buzz1.com  Wed May 20 08:24:31 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 09:24:31 -0400
Subject: New PDP 11/44 pics, interior card cage
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1431968401.75666.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1431968401.75666.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5227c1f5902d44fc86b5c7a8ad38284e@buzz1.com>

I mentioned earlier I had an ebay auction running for an 11/44 and there 
were questions about the interior card cage.  I uploaded new pics.  Here is 
what I could discern from the photos I took of the interior card cage's 
cards

M7856
M7819
M7814
M7258
M7258
M7258
M7297 / M7298
M9202
M7295
??
??
M7819
  
  When I posted the original listing I assumed incorrectly that all of the 
computer cards were in the 11/44 and the internal cage was for the few 
backup tape drive interface connectors.  Apparently I was way off.  The new 
pics help explain what the 11/44 was doing before being taken out of 
service..

  
 Ebay: 271869650084 (ends later today)
 new pics: vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-44_2nd/



From jdbryan at acm.org  Wed May 20 12:35:46 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 13:35:46 -0400
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <DBF495B766964FBC86EEC986597660DC@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1431968400.75666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <DBF495B766964FBC86EEC986597660DC@workshop>
Message-ID: <E1Yv7uD-0005hS-UF@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 23:12, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> Thanks, very useful info, and the manual is indeed what I was missing.

You're welcome.


> But now where to find the DMS, with two cards in particular, that's not
> going easy to find both that match...

First, are you sure that the machine does not have DMS installed?  It was a 
very common option that became standard later on, as all versions of the 
RTE operating system after RTE-II (circa 1976) required it.

Second, if the machine originally came with DMS but was stripped for 
resale, then possibly only the MEM card (in slot 112) was removed.  The 
firmware card is screwed onto the CPU board on the underside of the machine 
and is only accessible if the bottom cover is removed.  So maybe it was 
overlooked, and the availability of MEM cards is likely to be reasonable, 
as the same card (but with different firmware) was used in the E/F-Series 
machines.

Third, if the machine has neither DMS part, then indeed finding an M-Series 
DMS firmware card might be difficult.  However, DMS firmware was also 
included with the later M-Series Fast FORTRAN Processor firmware (product 
number 12977B).  Again, the FFP was a common option, and availability of 
that card might be better than the older standalone DMS firmware card.

Fourth, if you can find a standalone MEM card, the M-Series DMS/FFP 
firmware source is part of the HP 1000 Software Collection on Bitsavers, so 
you could burn the required firmware PROMs and install them on a 12791A 
Firmware Expansion Module card, which plugs into the I/O backplane and 
cables to the CPU board.  Both the FEM and the MEM were used on E/F-Series 
machines, so availability should be reasonable.

Finally, the simplest HP operating system that used DMS (RTE-III) had 
additional hardware requirements: a Memory Protect card, a Dual-Channel 
Port Controller (i.e., DMA) card, one of several console I/O cards, a Time-
Base Generator (i.e., clock) card, and either an HP 7900A or 7905/06/20/25A 
hard drive and its associated I/O interface(s).  The latter may be the most 
difficult and expensive part.  You can avoid the hard drive and use Ansgar 
Kueckes' HPDrive emulator with an HP-IB I/O card, but that requires RTE-IVB 
as the minimum OS, which requires at least 96KW of memory (128KW if you 
want to do anything other than boot the system :-).  MP and DCPC also were 
exceedingly common options, so I'd be surprised if your system didn't 
contain them, unless they've been stripped out for resale.

Without DMS, you're limited to 32KW.  In that, you could run (with some 
additional hardware, most notably an HP hard drive) DOS-III or RTE-II.  
Without a hard drive, you'd be limited to running one of several paper tape 
or mag tape-based HP OSes.  There are third-party OSes that run on the 
1000, but I know nothing about them.

At least software is no problem; virtually everything that HP developed for 
the 2116/2100/1000 machines is available via the Bitsavers collection.

                                      -- Dave


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed May 20 14:06:23 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:06:23 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 19.05.15 um 12:25 schrieb Johnny Billquist:
> 
> Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere,
> and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.)
It was a TZ30 in a DEC3000 running NetBSD, IIRC. We tried several TK50
tapes and all of them exhibited the sticky tape problem. And my 9-track
tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most
of the time about 10 years ago. (In 2001 I installed 2.11BSD on my /73
using a TK50.) The tapes where stored under normal household conditions.
I suppose the time of those tapes is long gone. The only use for them
now is wall decoration. :-(
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed May 20 14:11:23 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:11:23 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-20 21:06, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> Am 19.05.15 um 12:25 schrieb Johnny Billquist:
>>
>> Wow. That is definitely YMMV then. I've never seen that happen anywhere,
>> and I occasionally still work with TK50s. (Even professionally.)
> It was a TZ30 in a DEC3000 running NetBSD, IIRC. We tried several TK50
> tapes and all of them exhibited the sticky tape problem. And my 9-track
> tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most
> of the time about 10 years ago. (In 2001 I installed 2.11BSD on my /73
> using a TK50.) The tapes where stored under normal household conditions.
> I suppose the time of those tapes is long gone. The only use for them
> now is wall decoration. :-(

Hmm. There might also be other issues when using a TZ30 as compared to a 
TK50 here... I don't even remember how the TZ30 looks inside. There 
might be rubber parts in there.

	Johnny


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed May 20 14:32:25 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:32:25 -0500
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <E1Yv7uD-0005hS-UF@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.1.1431968400.75666.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <DBF495B766964FBC86EEC986597660DC@workshop>
 <E1Yv7uD-0005hS-UF@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007c01d09333$b3c1ebb0$1b45c310$@classiccmp.org>

I believe I have a DMS firmware board for the M series that is not needed,
I've passed on most all of my M series machines and focused on the E.

J



From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May 20 14:36:37 2015
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 12:36:37 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <555CE245.5090109@bitsavers.org>

On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> There might be rubber parts in there.
>
Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two C rings and the head assembly
lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read.

TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't tried baking them. Thankfully
there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it will stay that way.





From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed May 20 14:48:29 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:48:29 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CE245.5090109@bitsavers.org>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CE245.5090109@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <555CE50D.4090208@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-20 21:36, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> There might be rubber parts in there.
>>
> Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two
> C rings and the head assembly
> lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read.

I think I have one or two TZ30 somewhere. Maybe I should look more at them.
But the TK50 is really easy to clean. You just remove the 3 screws that 
holds the cover plate, and then you just clean the heads where they are.

But yes, you do need to clean the heads a lot on those drives. I believe 
I mentioned that in my original reply. :-)

> TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't
> tried baking them. Thankfully
> there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it
> will stay that way.

Interesting. I haven't seen that. And they construction is totally 
different from QIC tapes as well, unless my memory is failing me even more.

	Johnny


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 20 15:12:10 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 13:12:10 -0700
Subject: Interactive Baseball/Don Daglow
Message-ID: <555CEA9A.4090801@sydex.com>

WikiP under the "PDP-10" subject claims that Don Daglow wrote the first 
computer baseball game in 1971.

I don't think that this is accurate; do any old CDC-ers out there 
remember the BAT PP program on every CE's MACE deadstart tape?  I 
believe that it preceded Daglow's game by a couple of years.

I know this may chafe some of the DECfans out there, but I think the 
claim is simply not accurate.

--Chuck

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 20 15:28:24 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 15:28:24 -0500
Subject: An 80286 motherboard, NIB
Message-ID: <0b7501d0933b$858f29d0$90ad7d70$@com>

Found another goodie, saved from the scrapper.

VLSI high performance Baby AT Turbo mainboard 12 MHZ Zero-Wait

Up to 4MB DRAM

6x16-bit and 2x8-bit ISA slots

Will require a separate hard/floppy controller, video card, memory, CPU, and
80287 if you want one.

Supports 360kb, 1.2MB, 720KB, and 1.44MB floppies

Includes manual.

Note: this motherboard does NOT have slots for 30-pin or 72-pin memory.
They all need to be socketed chips, which I do NOT have.

 

Make an offer, take it home!

 

I also have new hard/floppies controllers, still in the box.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Wed May 20 15:35:26 2015
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:35:26 +0100
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CE50D.4090208@update.uu.se>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se>
 <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CE245.5090109@bitsavers.org>
 <555CE50D.4090208@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHX=Q2pOT3e-WHtQU9nMnafKa3gNvbvOhW6a_4hx25cBTw@mail.gmail.com>

In case someone hasn't mentioned baking the tapes apparently an hour at 50
degc works wonders
On 20 May 2015 20:48, "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 2015-05-20 21:36, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> On 5/20/15 12:11 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>> There might be rubber parts in there.
>>>
>>>  Nope, I like them better than TK50s, though, because you pop off the two
>> C rings and the head assembly
>> lifts up to clean, which is necessary after every tape you try to read.
>>
>
> I think I have one or two TZ30 somewhere. Maybe I should look more at them.
> But the TK50 is really easy to clean. You just remove the 3 screws that
> holds the cover plate, and then you just clean the heads where they are.
>
> But yes, you do need to clean the heads a lot on those drives. I believe I
> mentioned that in my original reply. :-)
>
>  TK50 tapes stick or gum up at the ends just like QIC carts do. I haven't
>> tried baking them. Thankfully
>> there are almost none in the queue right now to read and hopefully it
>> will stay that way.
>>
>
> Interesting. I haven't seen that. And they construction is totally
> different from QIC tapes as well, unless my memory is failing me even more.
>
>         Johnny
>
>

From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu  Wed May 20 15:41:51 2015
From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 15:41:51 -0500
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>



> On 2015-05-20 21:06, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>>  And my 9-track
>> tapes are rotten to the point of uselessness too. They still worked most
>> of the time about 10 years ago.
>
It largely depends on storage conditions.  I recently read some of my 
old backup tapes from the mid 1980's with no problem.  The drive did a 
little bit of backing up and retrying, but I got 100% data recovery.  
I've had some other tapes that were not stored in proper conditions 
where all the oxide fell off and collected on the tape heads.  (I'm 
referring to 9 track tapes, here.)

Jon


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 20 16:07:11 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:07:11 -0500
Subject: the 2 old original IBM machines
Message-ID: <0ba101d09340$f05581b0$d1008510$@com>

8088 computers, one has 2 floppies, 1 has 1 floppy and 1 hdd.

Both fully tested and functional.  No keyboards now, but there is an
original IBM mono monitor, and the printer.

I do NOT want to ship; these will not survive UPS very well.

We are about 1 hour from San Antonio.

Make a good offer, take them home.

Lots of software to go with these.

Must be gone before Monday.

I will be at the warehouse all weekend.

 

Also 2 NIB 14" amber VGA monitors.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 20 16:19:32 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:19:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: the 2 old original IBM machines
In-Reply-To: <0ba101d09340$f05581b0$d1008510$@com>
References: <0ba101d09340$f05581b0$d1008510$@com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505201409070.30571@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 20 May 2015, Electronics Plus wrote:
> 8088 computers, one has 2 floppies, 1 has 1 floppy and 1 hdd.
> Both fully tested and functional.  No keyboards now, but there is an
> original IBM mono monitor, and the printer.
> I do NOT want to ship; these will not survive UPS very well.
> We are about 1 hour from San Antonio.
> Make a good offer, take them home.
> Lots of software to go with these.
> Must be gone before Monday.
> I will be at the warehouse all weekend.

By default, the PC (5150) is floppy only.
By default, The XT (5160) has hard^H^H^H FIXED disk  (IBM didn't want to 
imply that an HDD was hard to use)

But, there are exceptions.  HDD could be added to PC, XT could be 
purchased without HDD.

Therefore, the obvious definitive recognizable differences are:
PC has 5 expansion slots; XT has 8.   XT usually came with an async 
(RS232/current loop) board in slot closest to power supply due to slight 
incompatabilities of that slot.

Power supplies are different size (63.5/65 for PC, 130?/135? for XT),
but often swapped.
Some early PC power supplies were black, with a white toggle switch.

PC has a cassette port!  That other connector next to the keyboard 
connector is NOT for a second keyboard.  Around here, IBM did not sell a 
cord for the cassette port, but it was compatible with the Radio-Shack 
model 1 cable.

There are some more subtle differences if you open the case.
The PC had 4 rows of RAM, with one soldered in.  Early was 16K/64K,
later ones were 64K/256K

Do the differences matter?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 20 16:36:04 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:36:04 -0500
Subject: More stuff that can't be shipped
Message-ID: <0bc101d09344$f988dda0$ec9a98e0$@com>

Couple of Kaypro ( and 2 and a II)

Several old 80386? Compaq luggables

A supersonic testing machine of some sort

A  Sperry mainframe?  Size of washing machine

A plotter with only 10 hours on it

A DG Pent Pro server

An OLD HP emulator with LOTS of thick SCSI type cables

Piles of OLD DEC stuff

Plotters, HP, new in box, 6 or 8 pens, I forget which, IBM badged

Lots of other old things, like the computers and terminals in the Halt TV
show

NIB but very old network stuff

 

No way to ship, someone please bring wallet and truck/trailer J

Must be gone by Monday.

 

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 20 18:52:33 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:52:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More stuff that can't be shipped
Message-ID: <20150520235233.23A4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Cindy Croxton

    > Piles of OLD DEC stuff

Like what? Like most people on this list, I'm far enough away that I can't
just drive over (especially on such little notice), but if there's something
good there, perhaps a local DEC collector can help, or I could pay someone to
go get it. But without having _some_ idea what's there.... Any cables? (Those
seem to usually be in short supply.) Any chance of some pictures, if you have
no idea what's what?

	Noel

From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Wed May 20 18:52:58 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:52:58 -0700
Subject: More stuff that can't be shipped
In-Reply-To: <0bc101d09344$f988dda0$ec9a98e0$@com>
Message-ID: <20150520235258.D3BCEE03FE@smtp.hushmail.com>

I followed up with Cindy and got more info:

"Sperry mainframe?  Size of washing machine" is blue and has never been turned on (no more info but if you are interested she may be able to get a part number)

Dec Server 700
Dec Station
Dec mate 200
Several small Dec systems the size of 486 desk tops early 80s vintage one with butterfly disk drive
4 large old dec replacement power supplies
RA82 locked & working when decommissioned 
dec tape drives (RDxx part number?) half and full height
OLD pc power supplies (PC and AT)
Micro channel systems (desktop and tower)
Micro Channel cards

She's basically looking for someone to come take it all but if you really really want something I get the impression she may ship it to you if you are nice and if she has time. Anything not picked up is going to the scrapper.



On May 20, 2015 at 2:36 PM, "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com> wrote:
>
>Couple of Kaypro ( and 2 and a II)
>
>Several old 80386? Compaq luggables
>
>A supersonic testing machine of some sort
>
>A  Sperry mainframe?  Size of washing machine
>
>A plotter with only 10 hours on it
>
>A DG Pent Pro server
>
>An OLD HP emulator with LOTS of thick SCSI type cables
>
>Piles of OLD DEC stuff
>
>Plotters, HP, new in box, 6 or 8 pens, I forget which, IBM badged
>
>Lots of other old things, like the computers and terminals in the 
>Halt TV
>show
>
>NIB but very old network stuff
>
> 
>
>No way to ship, someone please bring wallet and truck/trailer J
>
>Must be gone by Monday.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Cindy Croxton
>
>Electronics Plus
>
>1613 Water Street
>
>Kerrville, TX 78028
>
>830-792-3400 phone
>
>sales at elecplus.com
>
>AOL IM elcpls


From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Wed May 20 18:54:55 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:54:55 -0700
Subject: More stuff that can't be shipped
In-Reply-To: <20150520235233.23A4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150520235456.24697E03FF@smtp.hushmail.com>

She mentioned some DEC cables. Very thick with 15 pin connectors. Not very helpful I know but if it's close to what someone is looking for you may be able to get more info from her directly.

Kirk

On May 20, 2015 at 4:52 PM, "Noel Chiappa" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> From: Cindy Croxton
>
>    > Piles of OLD DEC stuff
>
>Like what? Like most people on this list, I'm far enough away that 
>I can't
>just drive over (especially on such little notice), but if there's 
>something
>good there, perhaps a local DEC collector can help, or I could pay 
>someone to
>go get it. But without having _some_ idea what's there.... Any 
>cables? (Those
>seem to usually be in short supply.) Any chance of some pictures, 
>if you have
>no idea what's what?
>
>	Noel


From chrise at pobox.com  Wed May 20 20:51:47 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 20:51:47 -0500
Subject: New PDP 11/44 pics, interior card cage
In-Reply-To: <5227c1f5902d44fc86b5c7a8ad38284e@buzz1.com>
References: <mailman.3.1431968401.75666.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <5227c1f5902d44fc86b5c7a8ad38284e@buzz1.com>
Message-ID: <20150521015147.GA2522@n0jcf.net>

On Wednesday (05/20/2015 at 09:24AM -0400), B Degnan wrote:
>  new pics: vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-44_2nd/

Dang.  That TU58's been rode hard and put up wet (as they say).

-- 
Chris Elmquist

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May 20 18:16:15 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 17:16:15 -0600
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
In-Reply-To: <0F7EC75C5B3445FD96B3C370564D6599@310e2>
References: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT6EVi3T7y4b6rXPxyO0LQhoQvxc_CH5HEm579wsrR+fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0F7EC75C5B3445FD96B3C370564D6599@310e2>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSKGV61P61y0rPq7ZJrXwC9CLBG+6cyjJbw9G7mkkz33w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:28 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
> My 8041A/8641A/8741A data sheet says
> "interchangeable ROM and EPROM Versions", "Single
> 5V Supply" and "Vdd (Power): 5V during normal
> operation".

"Normal operation" is the key phrase. ROM (or EPROM) verification mode
is not considered "normal operation".  In normal operation, the
8041A/8641A/8741A is executing the ROM/EPROM code, and you can apply
an address externally to the port pins until the cows come home, but
that won't make it dump the contents of that address.

> I'm pretty sure I've read 8741s without any 25V
> supply; AFAIK Verify mode is not the same as Read ('normal') mode.

This isn't a 2716. There isn't a "read (normal)" mode. Normal mode is
executing code, and doesn't allow reading the ROM (or EPROM) contents
externally.  Verification mode is the only mode that provides for
external access to the ROM/EPROM contents. The only documented way the
chip knows to be in verification mode is a supervoltage on the EA pin.

A National Semiconductor app note suggests that 9V is adequate for
reading their 804x masked ROM parts; they specifically mention
internal circuitry that detects a voltage on EA above a certain
threshold which puts the part into verification mode. The 9V National
describes might or might not be adequate to read Intel masked ROM
parts.  Intel specified 12V to read the 8048. Intel neglected to
specify the supervoltage required for ROM verification mode for the
8041 and 8041A, but I'm pretty sure they expected 12V for those as
well.

From mainpatents at gmail.com  Wed May 20 21:15:41 2015
From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard B. Main, Esq.)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:15:41 -0700
Subject: Reading/Verifying the Intel 8041A
Message-ID: <CACTnH8uCYR3UF__qkknQwE2ve_i5Na1QX5+2XHiAF9LMW90=ZA@mail.gmail.com>

The Intel AFN-00188B Datasheets for 8041A/8741A specify that EA max is
24.5V. The verify mode for "PROM/ROM" holds EA high at 23V.

The 8048/8748 Datasheets say EA is 32V for 8748 Verify but need only be
+12V for 8048.

Richard

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May 20 22:31:01 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:31:01 -0600
Subject: Reading/Verifying the Intel 8041A
In-Reply-To: <CACTnH8uCYR3UF__qkknQwE2ve_i5Na1QX5+2XHiAF9LMW90=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8uCYR3UF__qkknQwE2ve_i5Na1QX5+2XHiAF9LMW90=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQyJmdzLuzPr=tenOqCbyw43zbVVvziS2+RK5cd1E6-mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Richard B. Main, Esq.
<mainpatents at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Intel AFN-00188B Datasheets for 8041A/8741A specify that EA max is
> 24.5V. The verify mode for "PROM/ROM" holds EA high at 23V.

Thank you for looking that up. I have several different 8041 and 8041A
datasheets, but apparently not that particular one.

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu May 21 01:19:55 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 08:19:55 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 20.05.15 um 22:41 schrieb Jon Elson:
> It largely depends on storage conditions.
Sorry I can not afford a climate controlled cabinet. The tapes where
stored in my "machine room", i.e. a normal bedroom in my flat.
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu May 21 01:22:41 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 08:22:41 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <555D79B1.7050909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 20.05.15 um 21:11 schrieb Johnny Billquist:
> Hmm. There might also be other issues when using a TZ30 as compared to a
> TK50 here... I don't even remember how the TZ30 looks inside. There
> might be rubber parts in there.
No rubber. The tapes got stuck to the read-/write head.
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From jrr at flippers.com  Thu May 21 00:59:24 2015
From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 22:59:24 -0700
Subject: Reading/Verifying the Intel 8041A
In-Reply-To: <CACTnH8uCYR3UF__qkknQwE2ve_i5Na1QX5+2XHiAF9LMW90=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACTnH8uCYR3UF__qkknQwE2ve_i5Na1QX5+2XHiAF9LMW90=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <555D743C.4040204@flippers.com>

On 05/20/2015 7:15 PM, Richard B. Main, Esq. wrote:
> The Intel AFN-00188B Datasheets for 8041A/8741A specify that EA max is
> 24.5V. The verify mode for "PROM/ROM" holds EA high at 23V.
>
> The 8048/8748 Datasheets say EA is 32V for 8748 Verify but need only be
> +12V for 8048.
>
> Richard
>
Speaking of old textbooks, something people need to keep an eye out for 
are old parts catalogues put out by the large parts distributors of yore.

I have an Electrosonic Catalogues (Canada - 600 some pages of 
components!) from the late 60s and it is great because they have 
unarchived specifications on many of the early solid state and EM parts 
- many of which are used in older computers. One spec sheet I found was 
a comparison sheet of CDS cells that were common in 1969 and gave their 
range of specs - handy!

The advantage for me is I use these to get the specs on old parts that I 
am trying to repair, or replace with more modern parts. At one time 
E-Sonic had a few PDFs of these early manuals online, but they seem to 
have hidden them since the last time I visited their site. And I just 
did a bit of a search using Archive.org's wayback machine and can't find 
the year when they did have those on their site...

John :-#)#

From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Thu May 21 09:44:49 2015
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:44:49 +0200
Subject: hp 1820-7730 datasheet? HP-PB J2146A LAN interface, SOT23 part missing
Message-ID: <trinity-e2849663-a799-4ea7-b640-c528dcb0990b-1432219489058@3capp-gmx-bs71>

Hello Folks,

with a bunch of HP 9000 equipment, I received a HP-PB "802.3 10Mbps LAN" 
card that was missing the 10base2 BNC connector and the SOT23 SMD part
directly behind it. No idea why and by whom they were removed. A BNC
socket was easily found in one of my parts bins, but what about the
SMD component? My first idea was this might just be some sort of
transient protection device (I've seen a really old ISA NIC fitted with
a neon bulb next to the BNC for that purpose!) but there probably is a
bit more to it, as pin 1 connects to BNC Center and to pin 7 on the PHY
(U18, NatSemi SS9130AP also HP house-marked as 1820-7730), pin 2 is BNC
shield/ground *and pin 3 goes to pin 5 on the PHY*.

Unfortunately I was not able to find a datasheet for the PHY that would
probably give an example circuit - can anyone please either point me to
that or, if they have an example of that card available, look up the
marking of that SOT23 device for me?

Card would be for my HP9000-K100 PA-RISC, for which I'm also looking 
for one of the graphic options. One keeps popping up in the US 'bay
but the (commercial) seller wants real money for it - add S&H to old
europe and it's waaay out of my confortable range.

Thanks in advance,

Arno

From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu May 21 14:11:15 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:11:15 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.27.1432253625.1120.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

At 03:03 PM 5/19/2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>I've been brainstorming about hypothetical hardware for converting video from vintage 8-bit computers to drive modern monitors well, with support for all of the dirty tricks like color aliasing that many of them used. 

Hasn't this list discussed existing devices that work for this task?
They're aimed at the game console market.

- John



From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu May 21 11:46:22 2015
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:46:22 -0400
Subject: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2
References: <CACTnH8th163X6SPGTUKXo-JYNiPKJ9WNwC93QNXAkna+CKCq1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT6EVi3T7y4b6rXPxyO0LQhoQvxc_CH5HEm579wsrR+fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0F7EC75C5B3445FD96B3C370564D6599@310e2>
 <CAFrGgTSKGV61P61y0rPq7ZJrXwC9CLBG+6cyjJbw9G7mkkz33w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6EAAEF84E0E40C3AA538142802F2FB3@310e2>

Thanks!

I think I got confused between the CPU reading
external memory and reading its internal memory
from the outside; also I must have misremembered 
how I'd read one in my distant youth.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: ASM-48 for Intellec MDS-2


> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:28 PM, Mike Stein
> <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My 8041A/8641A/8741A data sheet says
>> "interchangeable ROM and EPROM Versions",
>> "Single
>> 5V Supply" and "Vdd (Power): 5V during normal
>> operation".
>
> "Normal operation" is the key phrase. ROM (or
> EPROM) verification mode
> is not considered "normal operation".  In normal
> operation, the
> 8041A/8641A/8741A is executing the ROM/EPROM
> code, and you can apply
> an address externally to the port pins until the
> cows come home, but
> that won't make it dump the contents of that
> address.
>
>> I'm pretty sure I've read 8741s without any 25V
>> supply; AFAIK Verify mode is not the same as
>> Read ('normal') mode.
>
> This isn't a 2716. There isn't a "read (normal)"
> mode. Normal mode is
> executing code, and doesn't allow reading the
> ROM (or EPROM) contents
> externally.  Verification mode is the only mode
> that provides for
> external access to the ROM/EPROM contents. The
> only documented way the
> chip knows to be in verification mode is a
> supervoltage on the EA pin.
>
> A National Semiconductor app note suggests that
> 9V is adequate for
> reading their 804x masked ROM parts; they
> specifically mention
> internal circuitry that detects a voltage on EA
> above a certain
> threshold which puts the part into verification
> mode. The 9V National
> describes might or might not be adequate to read
> Intel masked ROM
> parts.  Intel specified 12V to read the 8048.
> Intel neglected to
> specify the supervoltage required for ROM
> verification mode for the
> 8041 and 8041A, but I'm pretty sure they
> expected 12V for those as
> well.


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu May 21 17:48:38 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 15:48:38 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>


> On May 21, 2015, at 12:11 , John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> 
> At 03:03 PM 5/19/2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>> I've been brainstorming about hypothetical hardware for converting video from vintage 8-bit computers to drive modern monitors well, with support for all of the dirty tricks like color aliasing that many of them used. 
> 
> Hasn't this list discussed existing devices that work for this task?
> They're aimed at the game console market.

I don't recall a previous discussion of that, but my lack of recollection certainly doesn't mean that it never happened.

It's been mentioned recently on various retrocomputing podcasts that many (most? all?) of the existing solutions out there work poorly with some vintage computers, particularly the Apple II. It was mentioned in passing on Open Apple #43 in the discussion of LCD panels suitable for an Apple II GS laptop conversion, and specifically discussed on RCR #100 in the Host's Topic segment as something lacking in the market (links below).

Maybe there are good solutions that just aren't well-known in those circles? If so, I'd like to hear about them.

I'm also very interested in learning about specific instances of "computer X worked poorly with adapter/display Y, and it failed in this particular way". While I recall hearing multiple mentions of this sort of trouble in general, I'd like to hear of specific examples of how specific combinations failed, i.e. "monitor Y couldn't sync to video from computer X", "adapter Y generates monochrome output instead of deliberately aliased colors from computer X", etc.



http://www.open-apple.net/2015/01/22/open-apple-43-january-2015-happy-new-year-with-ben-heck/

http://rcrpodcast.com/episodes/2015/5/10/rcr-episode-100.html

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Fri May 22 01:45:24 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 23:45:24 -0700
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4305BBCB5E934AB3A659F2D2AB082DAB@workshop>

Dave,

Super useful info again. In the meantime the machine has arrived, in very
good shape. I'll post pictures when I have time tomorrow, and a video
hopefully. I took a quick look inside to confirm

- there is a DCPC and a MEM protect card

- Memory controller is an older 2102A

- Three are three 8k 2102A memory boards

- No MEM card in slot 112

- Under the processor board there is a screwed on card, which seems to have
ROM on it. Microcode I presume, but I don't know if that's the one you were
talking about. I'll post photos to confirm

The IO cards and the paper tape reader / punch that came with it suggest
that it was configured with a paper tape reader, a paper tape punch, a mag
tape and a TTY interface. A plausible story is that this was an early
machine setup for paper tape and TTY and didn't have extended memory. The
early 2102A controller fits that picture well. 

So I might be in the hunt for the cards or alternate solutions you
mentioned.  

Marc

 

 

From: "J. David Bryan" <jdbryan at acm.org>

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 23:12, Marc Verdiell wrote:

 

> Thanks, very useful info, and the manual is indeed what I was missing.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

> But now where to find the DMS, with two cards in particular, that's 

> not going easy to find both that match...

 

First, are you sure that the machine does not have DMS installed?  It was a
very common option that became standard later on, as all versions of the RTE
operating system after RTE-II (circa 1976) required it.

 

Second, if the machine originally came with DMS but was stripped for resale,
then possibly only the MEM card (in slot 112) was removed.  The firmware
card is screwed onto the CPU board on the underside of the machine and is
only accessible if the bottom cover is removed.  So maybe it was overlooked,
and the availability of MEM cards is likely to be reasonable, as the same
card (but with different firmware) was used in the E/F-Series machines.

 

Third, if the machine has neither DMS part, then indeed finding an M-Series
DMS firmware card might be difficult.  However, DMS firmware was also
included with the later M-Series Fast FORTRAN Processor firmware (product
number 12977B).  Again, the FFP was a common option, and availability of
that card might be better than the older standalone DMS firmware card.

 

Fourth, if you can find a standalone MEM card, the M-Series DMS/FFP firmware
source is part of the HP 1000 Software Collection on Bitsavers, so you could
burn the required firmware PROMs and install them on a 12791A Firmware
Expansion Module card, which plugs into the I/O backplane and cables to the
CPU board.  Both the FEM and the MEM were used on E/F-Series machines, so
availability should be reasonable.

 

Finally, the simplest HP operating system that used DMS (RTE-III) had
additional hardware requirements: a Memory Protect card, a Dual-Channel Port
Controller (i.e., DMA) card, one of several console I/O cards, a Time- Base
Generator (i.e., clock) card, and either an HP 7900A or 7905/06/20/25A hard
drive and its associated I/O interface(s).  The latter may be the most
difficult and expensive part.  You can avoid the hard drive and use Ansgar
Kueckes' HPDrive emulator with an HP-IB I/O card, but that requires RTE-IVB
as the minimum OS, which requires at least 96KW of memory (128KW if you want
to do anything other than boot the system :-).  MP and DCPC also were
exceedingly common options, so I'd be surprised if your system didn't
contain them, unless they've been stripped out for resale.

 

Without DMS, you're limited to 32KW.  In that, you could run (with some
additional hardware, most notably an HP hard drive) DOS-III or RTE-II.  

Without a hard drive, you'd be limited to running one of several paper tape
or mag tape-based HP OSes.  There are third-party OSes that run on the 1000,
but I know nothing about them.

 

At least software is no problem; virtually everything that HP developed for
the 2116/2100/1000 machines is available via the Bitsavers collection.

 

                                      -- Dave

 

 


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri May 22 11:26:10 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 09:26:10 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>

I've ordered a $15 composite to HDMI converter from Amazon to try out for myself with my Apple IIe and IIc. I'd also like to try out my Color Computers with a modern monitor to see if the color aliasing used by some games can be reproduced. I don't have a modern television, but I might still have a crusty old VCR out in the junk pile whose tuner output could be fed into the $15 converter.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri May 22 15:15:51 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 13:15:51 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>


On May 22, 2015, at 9:26 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

> I've ordered a $15 composite to HDMI converter from Amazon to try out for myself with my Apple IIe and IIc. I'd also like to try out my Color Computers with a modern monitor to see if the color aliasing used by some games can be reproduced. I don't have a modern television, but I might still have a crusty old VCR out in the junk pile whose tuner output could be fed into the $15 converter.

I?m anxious to hear reports on it. I?ve tried a lot of different things and so far nothing can handle the NTSC color signal that the Apple II puts out. Same with the Atari 800. I just end up with a monochrome screen with lines instead of colors.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri May 22 15:20:34 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 15:20:34 -0500
Subject: network event
Message-ID: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>

Yesterday afternoon we had a "network event" on our storage network. Traffic
was flowing, but with severe drops in connections.

 

We believe we have most - but not all - resolved at this point.
Unfortunately, in the thick of battle production machines come first so
classiccmp server sat down for a while and was just brought back up.

 

Apologies for the inconvenience.. Going to sleep now.

 

J


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 22 15:31:21 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 13:31:21 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <555F9219.8030408@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2015 01:15 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:

> I?m anxious to hear reports on it. I?ve tried a lot of different
> things and so far nothing can handle the NTSC color signal that the
> Apple II puts out. Same with the Atari 800. I just end up with a
> monochrome screen with lines instead of colors.

Do you have anything like Freecycle in your area?  Usually, if you say 
you're looking for an old-style TV, people will jump at the chance to 
give away the old sets.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 22 15:32:23 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 13:32:23 -0700
Subject: network event
In-Reply-To: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <555F9257.2000901@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2015 01:20 PM, Jay West wrote:

> Apologies for the inconvenience.. Going to sleep now.

I, for one, didn't even notice.  Thanks for the dilligent work!

--Chuck



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri May 22 15:35:21 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 15:35:21 -0500
Subject: network event
In-Reply-To: <555F9257.2000901@sydex.com>
References: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>
 <555F9257.2000901@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <005201d094ce$d2df7ca0$789e75e0$@classiccmp.org>

Chuck wrote...
-----
I, for one, didn't even notice.
-----
I really really wish I could say the same. Truly.

----
Thanks for the dilligent work!
----
Thanks.




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May 22 15:38:01 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 13:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I've ordered a $15 composite to HDMI converter from Amazon to try out 
> for myself with my Apple IIe and IIc. I'd also like to try out my Color 
> Computers with a modern monitor to see if the color aliasing used by 
> some games can be reproduced. I don't have a modern television, but I 
> might still have a crusty old VCR out in the junk pile whose tuner 
> output could be fed into the $15 converter.

If'n you want composite, instead of RF on Coco, it is truly trivial to 
connect, once you open the case (guess what the input to the RF modulator 
is)




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri May 22 16:10:44 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 14:10:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: network event
In-Reply-To: <005201d094ce$d2df7ca0$789e75e0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>
 <555F9257.2000901@sydex.com> <005201d094ce$d2df7ca0$789e75e0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505221410270.17140@deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Jay West wrote:

> Chuck wrote...
> -----
> I, for one, didn't even notice.
> -----
> I really really wish I could say the same. Truly.
>
Well you're the guy behind the curtain.  We're forbidden from noticing 
you. :D

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri May 22 16:12:33 2015
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 09:12:33 +1200
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, video is tricky.  I've just had an experience which emphasizes the
topic under discussion.

Just recently I got hold of an Amstrad CPC 464.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/amstradcpc464.htm

It didn't come with its screen though (dedicated screens were sold with the
machine). However British enthusiasts had developed an RGB to SCART cable
for this very problem. Problem for me was that although SCART is a common
video interface in Europe, it's rare in New Zealand. However I noted there
were SCART--->composite video adaptors around.  I figured that if I got
both devices, i could hook the 464 up to a composite input in an old TV.

I did just that and, you guessed it, monochrome output.  The colour
disappeared for some reason.  Some research on the web showed this was a
common problem and results could vary with these conversion devices.

The good news is that a local has a colour Amstrad screen he's gifting to
me.  Arrives Monday, so problem solved.

Terry (Tez)

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri May 22 18:19:26 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 16:19:26 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <555F9219.8030408@sydex.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>
 <555F9219.8030408@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <6EF8C58A-8088-4EAE-9E8D-1DB38339B4B8@fozztexx.com>


On May 22, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> Do you have anything like Freecycle in your area?  Usually, if you say you're looking for an old-style TV, people will jump at the chance to give away the old sets.

Heh, I have a few already. :-) I?ve even got one of those funny looking ones that has knobs on it. With VHF & UHF dials. And fine tuning. And only screw terminals on the back, none of those fancy RCA/phono jack connectors on it. I really need to do a cap kit on it though, it takes forever to warm up, and the tuning drifts while it?s on and I have to change the channel and then back to get it to lock on again.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May 22 18:54:31 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 16:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <6EF8C58A-8088-4EAE-9E8D-1DB38339B4B8@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>
 <555F9219.8030408@sydex.com>
 <6EF8C58A-8088-4EAE-9E8D-1DB38339B4B8@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221650050.6402@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:
> Heh, I have a few already. :-) I?ve even got one of those funny 
> looking ones that has knobs on it. With VHF & UHF dials. And fine 
> tuning. And only screw terminals on the back, none of those fancy 
> RCA/phono jack connectors on it.

A little over half a century ago, UHF was an extra price option!
My brother and I pooled our money and bought a 19" Philco "portable".
Our father chipped in the additional to get UHF.
I remember watching the Cuban missile crisis on it, with my father
muttering, "The SOB has gotten us into war!"


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 22 20:11:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 18:11:50 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221650050.6402@shell.lmi.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <8E7C5F52-B9E4-4CC1-97EC-741CB61E37DD@fozztexx.com>
 <555F9219.8030408@sydex.com>
 <6EF8C58A-8088-4EAE-9E8D-1DB38339B4B8@fozztexx.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221650050.6402@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <555FD3D6.3060303@sydex.com>

On 05/22/2015 04:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> A little over half a century ago, UHF was an extra price option!
> My brother and I pooled our money and bought a 19" Philco "portable".
> Our father chipped in the additional to get UHF.
> I remember watching the Cuban missile crisis on it, with my father
> muttering, "The SOB has gotten us into war!"

I used to have an old TV with a continuous VHF tuner that included 
channel 1.  You flipped a switch to tune channels 7-13.

I do recall those UHF converter boxes, though--as well as the CBS sets 
with the socket (dodecar?) on the back of the chassis for the color 
wheel adapter.  One of the electronics junk shops near my home had 
wooden crates full of the color wheels (no adapters though).

--Chuck



From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Fri May 22 21:43:24 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 19:43:24 -0700
Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP
 10342B
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop>

This has probably been asked before, but does anyone have the software
package that came with the HP-IB/RS232 HP10342 bus pre-processor for the
HP1650 series Logic Analyzer (actually I have a 1670G)? It should have a
config file and an inverse assembler file. I'm interested in the HP-IB
files. Can't find it anywhere.
- Marc


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May 22 23:24:21 2015
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 23:24:21 -0500
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
 <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>

On 05/21/2015 01:19 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> Am 20.05.15 um 22:41 schrieb Jon Elson:
>> It largely depends on storage conditions.
> Sorry I can not afford a climate controlled cabinet. The tapes where
> stored in my "machine room", i.e. a normal bedroom in my flat.
The "bad" conditions I mentioned were attics and damp 
basements. Any normal home environment should be quite good 
for tape storage.

Jon

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May 22 23:32:00 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 04:32:00 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>,
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> Yes, video is tricky.  I've just had an experience which emphasizes the
> topic under discussion.

The main problems stem from the fact that these computers output anything
but broadcast-standard video. In some cases it was because they were built
to a price and it was 'what can we get away with'. In others it was more a case
of getting extra features (like colour) almost for free.

> Just recently I got hold of an Amstrad CPC 464.
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/amstradcpc464.htm

Incidentally, one of the better things (for me) about Amstrad machines 
is that service manuals existed for them. Said manuals are essentially
a schematic and a parts list, but that is all that is normally needed. Certainly
for the older machines (all the CPCs and PCWs and the earlier PCs) they are
not just boardswapper guides.

> It didn't come with its screen though (dedicated screens were sold with the
> machine). However British enthusiasts had developed an RGB to SCART cable

What are you doing for the PSU (the computer ran off the SMPSU in the monitor
IIRC)?

> for this very problem. Problem for me was that although SCART is a common
> video interface in Europe, it's rare in New Zealand. However I noted there

One problem with SCART (and I don't think it's the cause of your problems) is that
it is several interfaces on one connector. In particular there is composite video,
RGB video (using the composite pin for sync) and later S-video (using the 
composite pin for Y and IIRC the 'red' pin for C). Not all devices implement all
parts of the interface. In particular UK TVs almost always have the RGB inputs, 
VCRs did not.

The CPC output is RGB video, and AFAIK the CPC-SCART cable is a simple cable
with perhaps level-shifting resistors inside. So it will use the RGB pins on the 
SCART connector. 

-tony

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri May 22 23:45:03 2015
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 16:45:03 +1200
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>

>What are you doing for the PSU
>(the computer ran off the SMPSU in the monitor IIRC)?

The cable "kit" came with a stand-alone PSU. This works fine.

Yes, I don't know what the problem is.  It could be the cheap "no-brand"
SCART <--> composite video/s-video converter (the signal can go either
way).  Anyway, it's better to have the genuine screen, so I'm glad I'm
getting that.

Terry (Tez)



On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 4:32 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Yes, video is tricky.  I've just had an experience which emphasizes the
> > topic under discussion.
>
> The main problems stem from the fact that these computers output anything
> but broadcast-standard video. In some cases it was because they were built
> to a price and it was 'what can we get away with'. In others it was more a
> case
> of getting extra features (like colour) almost for free.
>
> > Just recently I got hold of an Amstrad CPC 464.
> > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/amstradcpc464.htm
>
> Incidentally, one of the better things (for me) about Amstrad machines
> is that service manuals existed for them. Said manuals are essentially
> a schematic and a parts list, but that is all that is normally needed.
> Certainly
> for the older machines (all the CPCs and PCWs and the earlier PCs) they are
> not just boardswapper guides.
>
> > It didn't come with its screen though (dedicated screens were sold with
> the
> > machine). However British enthusiasts had developed an RGB to SCART cable
>
> What are you doing for the PSU (the computer ran off the SMPSU in the
> monitor
> IIRC)?
>
> > for this very problem. Problem for me was that although SCART is a common
> > video interface in Europe, it's rare in New Zealand. However I noted
> there
>
> One problem with SCART (and I don't think it's the cause of your problems)
> is that
> it is several interfaces on one connector. In particular there is
> composite video,
> RGB video (using the composite pin for sync) and later S-video (using the
> composite pin for Y and IIRC the 'red' pin for C). Not all devices
> implement all
> parts of the interface. In particular UK TVs almost always have the RGB
> inputs,
> VCRs did not.
>
> The CPC output is RGB video, and AFAIK the CPC-SCART cable is a simple
> cable
> with perhaps level-shifting resistors inside. So it will use the RGB pins
> on the
> SCART connector.
>
> -tony
>

From jdbryan at acm.org  Fri May 22 23:55:34 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 00:55:34 -0400
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <4305BBCB5E934AB3A659F2D2AB082DAB@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <4305BBCB5E934AB3A659F2D2AB082DAB@workshop>
Message-ID: <E1Yw1TD-0006dO-4Q@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 23:45, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> I took a quick look inside to confirm
> 
> - there is a DCPC and a MEM protect card

Good.  (To avoid confusion with the Memory Expansion Module, the latter 
card is usually designated MP or Memory Protect.)


> - No MEM card in slot 112

OK.


> - Under the processor board there is a screwed on card, which seems to
> have ROM on it. Microcode I presume, but I don't know if that's the one
> you were talking about.

One such card is present in all M-Series systems and contains the microcode 
for the base set of instructions.  If there's DMS or FFP/DMS firmware 
present, it would be on a second such card, mounted next to and connected 
via an edge-card connector socket to the base set card.

It sounds as though DMS is not present.


> The IO cards and the paper tape reader / punch that came with it
> suggest that it was configured with a paper tape reader, a paper tape
> punch, a mag tape and a TTY interface. A plausible story is that this
> was an early machine setup for paper tape and TTY and didn't have
> extended memory. 

A reasonable assumption.

Did it come with any software on paper tape (or mag tape)?


> So I might be in the hunt for the cards or alternate solutions you
> mentioned.

I'd suggest that the question to answer first is whether you want to expend 
the effort and expense to gather the moderate amount of additional hardware 
necessary to run one of the more advanced disc-based OS versions that can 
use DMS.  Note that the design of the memory mapping hardware in the 1000 
requires explicit software support (i.e., programming of the DMS hardware) 
in order to use more than 32KW of memory.  Earlier OSes that did not 
support DMS will simply ignore all memory in the machine over 32K, even 
when DMS is present.

With the hardware you have, you can run a paper-tape based OS, such as BCS 
(the Basic Control System) in 24K.  BCS is fairly primitive, but it does 
offer an assembler, FORTRAN IV, and ALGOL compilers, and paper-tape BASIC 
interpreters were also available (from the user contributed library).

The hardware requirements for running the disc-based RTEs are listed on 
these HP Computer Museum pages:

  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=565
  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=566


                                      -- Dave


From dave at 661.org  Fri May 22 23:57:14 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 04:57:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230456540.6771@nyx.feedle.net>


Does anyone here have a spare keyboard for a Compaq Portable?

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Sat May 23 00:06:28 2015
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 22:06:28 -0700
Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230456540.6771@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230456540.6771@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <BLU172-W362B4449C233808278F0FBBACF0@phx.gbl>

Hi Dave,

Did you try replacing the decayed conductive foamies under the keys?

This was a keytronic design, and I think my search began with that

It worked for me.

Shame on me for not keeping good records to give you the instant source of the material I used, it was 1/8 conductive foam with aluminum on both sides.

Purchase records are here somewhere, I will find them for you...

Randy

> Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 04:57:14 +0000
> From: dave at 661.org
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
> 
> 
> Does anyone here have a spare keyboard for a Compaq Portable?
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
 		 	   		  

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat May 23 00:07:31 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 22:07:31 -0700
Subject: Looking for RL11 (Unibus RL02 controller)
Message-ID: <55600B13.6040208@gmail.com>

I've been using my lone RL02 with my QBus systems, I'd love to be able 
to use it with my 11/34 as well.  (If anyone has a spare RL02 *drive* 
I'd be interested as well...)  I have various DEC stuff for trade, drop 
me a line if you have one going spare.

Thanks!
Josh

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat May 23 01:10:32 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:10:32 +0200
Subject: network event
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505221410270.17140@deltasoft.com>
References: <003701d094cc$c2ab9b90$4802d2b0$@classiccmp.org>
 <555F9257.2000901@sydex.com>
 <005201d094ce$d2df7ca0$789e75e0$@classiccmp.org>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505221410270.17140@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20150523061032.GH26694@Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 02:10:44PM -0700, geneb wrote:
> On Fri, 22 May 2015, Jay West wrote:
> 
> >Chuck wrote...
> >-----
> >I, for one, didn't even notice.
> >-----
> >I really really wish I could say the same. Truly.
> >
> Well you're the guy behind the curtain.  We're forbidden from
> noticing you. :D
> 

Reminds me of that futurama quote:

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Thanks Jay, for your time and effort.

/P

From dave at 661.org  Sat May 23 01:56:30 2015
From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 06:56:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
In-Reply-To: <BLU172-W362B4449C233808278F0FBBACF0@phx.gbl>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230456540.6771@nyx.feedle.net>
 <BLU172-W362B4449C233808278F0FBBACF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230655490.7454@nyx.feedle.net>



I've tried actuating the pads by hand.  I'm told that's supposed to work. 
It doesn't.

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Randy Dawson wrote:

> Hi Dave,
> 
> Did you try replacing the decayed conductive foamies under the keys?
> 
> This was a keytronic design, and I think my search began with that
> 
> It worked for me.
> 
> Shame on me for not keeping good records to give you the instant source of
> the material I used, it was 1/8 conductive foam with aluminum on both sides.
> 
> Purchase records are here somewhere, I will find them for you...
> 
> Randy
> 
> > Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 04:57:14 +0000
> > From: dave at 661.org
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
> >
> >
> > Does anyone here have a spare keyboard for a Compaq Portable?
> >
> > --
> > David Griffith
> > dave at 661.org
> >
> > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> > A: Top-posting.
> > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> 
>

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sat May 23 05:02:26 2015
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:02:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP 9144A and three QIC tapes available for free
Message-ID: <1887974413.1224591.1432375346380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi list,

3 years ago, I picked up an HP 9144A QIC tape drive with HP-IB interface. It came with three 16-track QIC tape drives. I never found the time to connect it to my HP 9000-300 and realized that I will probably never make use of it, which is why I'd like to give it to some other collector's hands who is interested. I powered up the drive for 2 hours, no smoke, the fan was running as expected. Nothing else tested.

Picture of the actual three tapes which come with the drive: 

http://www.digitalheritage.de/OTHER/20141223_155006_tn.JPG
I forgot to take pictures of the drive, but will do it, as soon as I can access it next week again.
In the mean time, here is another one of the tape drive (not mine):

http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=257



The drive weights 9kg (20 lbs).
First come, first serve. Drive and tapes are for free. You have to pay shipping costs or come to pick it up. Location is Bonn, Germany.

Kind regards,
Pierre

 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sat May 23 05:02:26 2015
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:02:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP 9144A and three QIC tapes available for free
Message-ID: <1887974413.1224591.1432375346380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi list,

3 years ago, I picked up an HP 9144A QIC tape drive with HP-IB interface. It came with three 16-track QIC tape drives. I never found the time to connect it to my HP 9000-300 and realized that I will probably never make use of it, which is why I'd like to give it to some other collector's hands who is interested. I powered up the drive for 2 hours, no smoke, the fan was running as expected. Nothing else tested.

Picture of the actual three tapes which come with the drive: 

http://www.digitalheritage.de/OTHER/20141223_155006_tn.JPG
I forgot to take pictures of the drive, but will do it, as soon as I can access it next week again.
In the mean time, here is another one of the tape drive (not mine):

http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=257



The drive weights 9kg (20 lbs).
First come, first serve. Drive and tapes are for free. You have to pay shipping costs or come to pick it up. Location is Bonn, Germany.

Kind regards,
Pierre

 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sat May 23 07:43:07 2015
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:43:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor
 HP 10342B
In-Reply-To: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1432227612.31502.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505230841250.64679@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Fri, 22 May 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> This has probably been asked before, but does anyone have the software
> package that came with the HP-IB/RS232 HP10342 bus pre-processor for the
> HP1650 series Logic Analyzer (actually I have a 1670G)? It should have a
> config file and an inverse assembler file. I'm interested in the HP-IB
> files. Can't find it anywhere.

    Is it on this disk?

http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=sw574&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902556.536879990&id=sw574


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com  Sat May 23 09:32:01 2015
From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 14:32:01 +0000
Subject: Seeking keyboard for Compaq Portable
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230655490.7454@nyx.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230456540.6771@nyx.feedle.net>
 <BLU172-W362B4449C233808278F0FBBACF0@phx.gbl>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505230655490.7454@nyx.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB10133E6@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>

I actually just finished re-padding mine last night.  I struggled to find the right materials with the correct electrical properties, but I eventually came up with a process that works.

The mylar I had (conductive on one side and the plastic base on the other) wasn't working.  The plastic side did nothing and the metal side shorted the pins.  Out of frustration, I conformally coated the keyboard PCB with a thin layer of silicone (available at your favorite internet retailer), and now both aluminum HVAC tape and the mylar sheet (metal side down) work correctly.  I stuck with mylar because the aluminum tape tends to develop sharp corners and can scratch through the conformal coating over time.

So here's the stackup:

Double sided tape (3M 9474LE 300LSE)
Coarse open cell foam cut to height
Super glue
2mil thick mylar, metal side facing the keyboard

I used a 7/16" hole punch to shape each material.  The resulting keys feel almost the same as the ones I didn't re-pad.  Given the deterioration of the existing foam, I suspect that it's closer to the original feel anyway.

Hope that helps,
Christopher

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 10:24:01 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:24:01 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>

Assuming that I don't find an off-the-shelf converter that Just Works for our poorly-behaving vintage computer video outputs, what I have in mind is this: A converter that is specifically designed to emulate the response of an 80's TV or 80's composite monitor when driven by a vintage computer output, and translate that as well as practical to modern displays (particularly, 1080p via HDMI). I have some ideas about how to accomplish this, but I will need to do more work to see if I can create a solution that is not absurdly expensive.

On the input side, I envision having two RCA jacks and an F connector, accepting composite video, Y/C separated video (for C64, etc.), or TV RF input. It should be able to accept NTSC or PAL, so the US and UK folks can play. Is there a need for SECAM, or any other video standards? What about other electrical interface options? I'm only hands-on familiar with US machines. I understand that Atari computers were especially popular in Poland, so I'd like to support those... anybody here know what format/channel a Polish Atari 8-bit would output?

In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer. I need to see if I can push the frame buffer out into external RAM in order to move to a cheaper FPGA. It would be ideal if the video parameters could be figure out automagically, but I have a feeling there will be a need for user-adjusted parameters, and possibly even loading up different FPGA programming to handle some odd-ball signal.

Output would be HDMI, at 1080p. Are other interfaces and/or resolutions desirable? I'd like to keep it as feature-simple as practical.

Handling the VHF/UHF tuner economically may be another sticky point. Maxim makes a tuner chip that's available at Digi-Key, but I refuse to design Maxim parts into anything on account of off-topic reasons. Mouser has stock of a very inexpensive ST tuner chip that looks very promising, but the full datasheet isn't openly available. I need to contact ST to see if I can talk them out of it. Their site mentions an NDA for the eval board, so it might be tough, particularly since my intention would be for my design to be open to allow off-label uses.

Assuming I don't lose interest before completing this (a high-risk caveat, naturally) and that I can find a way to make the price bearable, what do y'all think about this silliness? I'm particularly interested in learning about non-US TV formats so I can design in maximum utility.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May 23 10:35:36 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:35:36 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>


On May 23, 2015, at 8:24 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer.

Are you on the CoCo mailing list? Have you seen the RGB2VGA by Luis Antoniosi (CoCoDemus)? I know at one point he had been tinkering with making it support composite from the Apple II. It?s semi open-source, I think there are 2 versions and the latest version is currently all closed source.

https://sites.google.com/site/tandycocoloco/rgb2vga

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 23 10:36:11 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505230830100.9714@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 23 May 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Assuming that I don't find an off-the-shelf converter that Just Works 
> for our poorly-behaving vintage computer video outputs, what I have in 
> mind is this: A converter that is specifically designed to emulate the 
> response of an 80's TV or 80's composite monitor when driven by a 
> vintage computer output, and translate that as well as practical to 
> modern displays (particularly, 1080p via HDMI). I have some ideas about 
> how to accomplish this, but I will need to do more work to see if I can 
> create a solution that is not absurdly expensive.

Where are you located?
Would you like some of the REAL monitors?  They will do all sorts of 
bizarre artifacts that would be hard to emulate.  They are also perfect 
matches to the size weight, power draw, smell, reliability (or lack 
thereof), resolution (or lack thereof), etc.
Nothing truly duplicates the experience without drifting tuning, picky 
horizontal hold, a lttle flickering, etc.
I've long ago gotten rid of most of them, but there are always more 
breeding in the cracks of the woodwork.



From spedraja at gmail.com  Sat May 23 05:14:04 2015
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:14:04 +0200
Subject: HP 9144A and three QIC tapes available for free
In-Reply-To: <1887974413.1224591.1432375346380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1887974413.1224591.1432375346380.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-TjJPG7biYmKQd=Rcosu4RmO0kNOyV3yn++UOHug7hCA@mail.gmail.com>

I have some HP9000 300 and I'd like to try it. I'm interested.

Regards
Sergio Pedraja

El Sabado, 23 de mayo de 2015, P Gebhardt <p.gebhardt at ymail.com> escribi?:

> Hi list,
>
> 3 years ago, I picked up an HP 9144A QIC tape drive with HP-IB interface.
> It came with three 16-track QIC tape drives. I never found the time to
> connect it to my HP 9000-300 and realized that I will probably never make
> use of it, which is why I'd like to give it to some other collector's hands
> who is interested. I powered up the drive for 2 hours, no smoke, the fan
> was running as expected. Nothing else tested.
>
> Picture of the actual three tapes which come with the drive:
>
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/OTHER/20141223_155006_tn.JPG
> I forgot to take pictures of the drive, but will do it, as soon as I can
> access it next week again.
> In the mean time, here is another one of the tape drive (not mine):
>
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=257
>
>
>
> The drive weights 9kg (20 lbs).
> First come, first serve. Drive and tapes are for free. You have to pay
> shipping costs or come to pick it up. Location is Bonn, Germany.
>
> Kind regards,
> Pierre
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to:
> http://www.digitalheritage.de
>


-- 
Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations
?
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
http://spedraja.wordpress.com
https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo

From wulfman at wulfman.com  Sat May 23 10:45:37 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 08:45:37 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5560A0A1.3090204@wulfman.com>

maybe this will do ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GBS-8220-RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-ARCADE-VIDEO-CONVERTER-BOARD-Latest-Software-/120967105011?ssPageName=ADME:B:FSEL:US:1123



On 5/23/2015 8:24 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> Assuming that I don't find an off-the-shelf converter that Just Works for our poorly-behaving vintage computer video outputs, what I have in mind is this: A converter that is specifically designed to emulate the response of an 80's TV or 80's composite monitor when driven by a vintage computer output, and translate that as well as practical to modern displays (particularly, 1080p via HDMI). I have some ideas about how to accomplish this, but I will need to do more work to see if I can create a solution that is not absurdly expensive.
>
> On the input side, I envision having two RCA jacks and an F connector, accepting composite video, Y/C separated video (for C64, etc.), or TV RF input. It should be able to accept NTSC or PAL, so the US and UK folks can play. Is there a need for SECAM, or any other video standards? What about other electrical interface options? I'm only hands-on familiar with US machines. I understand that Atari computers were especially popular in Poland, so I'd like to support those... anybody here know what format/channel a Polish Atari 8-bit would output?
>
> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer. I need to see if I can push the frame buffer out into external RAM in order to move to a cheaper FPGA. It would be ideal if the video parameters could be figure out automagically, but I have a feeling there will be a need for user-adjusted parameters, and possibly even loading up different FPGA programming to handle some odd-ball signal.
>
> Output would be HDMI, at 1080p. Are other interfaces and/or resolutions desirable? I'd like to keep it as feature-simple as practical.
>
> Handling the VHF/UHF tuner economically may be another sticky point. Maxim makes a tuner chip that's available at Digi-Key, but I refuse to design Maxim parts into anything on account of off-topic reasons. Mouser has stock of a very inexpensive ST tuner chip that looks very promising, but the full datasheet isn't openly available. I need to contact ST to see if I can talk them out of it. Their site mentions an NDA for the eval board, so it might be tough, particularly since my intention would be for my design to be open to allow off-label uses.
>
> Assuming I don't lose interest before completing this (a high-risk caveat, naturally) and that I can find a way to make the price bearable, what do y'all think about this silliness? I'm particularly interested in learning about non-US TV formats so I can design in maximum utility.
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
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copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
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From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 23 10:51:57 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:51:57 -0500
Subject: Sanyo Denki 1402-B2 (paper tape drive)
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20YwhWUY03f-L9TdMJtK=+EGzv0Trtu+ooavyFXn=v6AQ@mail.gmail.com>

anyone know how to hook these up?
has controllers to talk to a  Shibaura VMC-45 with a Tosnuc 600 control
picked it up for 50 bucks in near mint condition localy this week
and i'd like to hook it up to my laptop to back up every tape i got at this
time

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 23 10:52:43 2015
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:52:43 -0500
Subject: Sanyo Denki 1402-B2 (paper tape drive)
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20YwhWUY03f-L9TdMJtK=+EGzv0Trtu+ooavyFXn=v6AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20YwhWUY03f-L9TdMJtK=+EGzv0Trtu+ooavyFXn=v6AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23WFa7q0H-iW_5XAo3iYvw930zw50-OvD2OoLZxA3zMhQ@mail.gmail.com>

o ye heres a pic
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8780/17696207169_c892bffcbe_b.jpg

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat May 23 10:59:41 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:59:41 +0200
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5560A3ED.3090704@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 23.05.15 um 17:24 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic.
What about the analogy of Software Defined Radio:
Use only as much electronics as minimal necessary to get the input
signal digitized by a high speed ADC. Maybe some cheap DVB-T USB thing
can be abused for the ADC part. Do the processing in software on a
"normal" computer. (PeeCee, some ARM single board thing.)

Advantage:
- Converts to whatever video output your PeeCee has.
- Works on a laptop. No extra display needed when on the road.
- Easy to capture the video to generate AVI, MPEG, ...
- Scaling can be done by GPU of host computer. No need to reinvent the
  wheel. (If the existing GPU wheel fits the wagon...)
- Scaling and other processing can be done in easy to change software.
  That way it is easy to extent for other people. (Different scaling
  and interpolating algorithms. Adaption to the odd signal from some
  obscure hardware of other people.)
- Most likely cheaper then a stand alone solution.
- No obscure FPGA magic needed.

Disadvantage:
- needs extra PeeCee / ARM-SBC for processing.
- No obscure FPGA magic needed.
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From emu at e-bbes.com  Sat May 23 11:11:00 2015
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:11:00 -0600
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <5560A3ED.3090704@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <5560A3ED.3090704@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <5560A694.6020501@e-bbes.com>

On 2015-05-23 09:59, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>
> Advantage:
> - No obscure FPGA magic needed.
>
> Disadvantage:
> - No obscure FPGA magic needed.

?
;-)



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 23 11:25:00 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 16:25:00 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C42CB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> Handling the VHF/UHF tuner economically may be another sticky point. Maxim makes a tuner chip that's available 
> at Digi-Key, but I refuse to design Maxim parts into anything on account of off-topic reasons. Mouser has stock of 
> a very inexpensive ST tuner chip that looks very promising, but the full datasheet isn't openly available. I need to 
> contact ST to see if I can talk them out of it. Their site mentions an NDA for the eval board, so it might be tough, 
> particularly since my intention would be for my design to be open to allow off-label uses.

What I say below covers how it was generally done in the UK/Europe. No idea about elsewhere.

Building a UHF tuner (even assuming you have a working design) is non-trivial. To give you some idea, the 
inductors are often straight metal strips, layout and length is critical. If you bend one, you throw the tuning
way off....

In the days of analogue TV, a lot of manufacturers had a tuner module. This was not regarded as field-
repairable. Some companies (e.g.  Philips) published data sheets on said tuners, and of course you could
buy the tuner as a spare part for the TV. It was typically a flat metal box with an aerial socket on the side. It took
a 12V supply and a tuning voltage (normally 0-33V, applied to varicap diodes in the tuner). It outputed an IF
signal (the receiver was a superhet, of course) around 35-40MHz. To control the tuning you either used a 
votlage stabiliser and a potentiometer (or several that could be pre-set for various channels and switched
between) or a frequency synthesiser type of circuit, the local oscillator from the tuner (divided down in
a lot of cases) was brought out for this. I remember a chip called the SAB3035 CITAC (Computer Interface
for Tuning And Control) that was used here. 

The output of the tuner fed a suitable IF filter (a SAW device was about the easiest to use) then the IF
amplifiers (video and audio) and then detectors. There were ICs available for this. If you chose wisely the
only adjustment was the quadrature coil in the FM audio detector (in Europe, video was AM, audio FM on
analogue TV). Making the IF strip and detector was certianly possible, you had to do it on a ground-plane
PCB, and take some care with the layout, but it wasn't that bad. At least one UK company sold a kit for
this, I built a couple of them and they worked first time. Again, Philips were one of the companies who
made ICs for this, and data sheets were easy to come by.

Oh yes, in the UK the sound carrier was 6MHz offset from the video carrier, in the rest of Europe the spacing
was 5.5MHz. So if you want to handle sound (some computers sent their sound output over the RF output) you
may need to cover both.

At the output of this section you had composite video and line-level audio. What you do with those is up to
you....

[As an off-topic aside : Philips (again) sold a range of solderless educational electronic kits, rather better
than the 150-in-1 ones normally encountered. I only had the basic kit and a couple of the add-ons when
I was a kid, they let me make radios (including superhets), Wien bridge oscillators, etc. But I wish I could
have afforded the EE1007 and EE1008 (manuals are on-line in German). They culimated in making a monochrome TV, yes, the tuner and IF strip were ready-built modules, as was the CRT PSU, but you still got to do a lot 
yourself and, learnt a lot in the process. Perhaps looking at said manuals will let you know what you 
up against.]

-tony

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 11:33:53 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 09:33:53 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>


> On May 23, 2015, at 08:35, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On May 23, 2015, at 8:24 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
>> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer.
> 
> Are you on the CoCo mailing list? Have you seen the RGB2VGA by Luis Antoniosi (CoCoDemus)? I know at one point he had been tinkering with making it support composite from the Apple II. It?s semi open-source, I think there are 2 versions and the latest version is currently all closed source.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/tandycocoloco/rgb2vga


I'm on the list, but it's so high-volume that I rarely read it. I'll look at the RGB2VGA board to see if I might learn anything from it. His mention of a line buffer is already my "Oh, duh!" moment about how to use cheaper external SDRAM instead of on-FPGA dual-port memories for the frame buffer. The dual-port memories are very convenient, but having enough to form a frame buffer pushes the design up into over-$100 FPGAs.


> On May 23, 2015, at 08:36, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Where are you located?
> Would you like some of the REAL monitors?

I'm in Riverside, CA, but I already have enough real monitors. :)


> On May 23, 2015, at 08:45, wulfman <wulfman at wulfman.com> wrote:
> 
> maybe this will do ?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GBS-8220-RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-ARCADE-VIDEO-CONVERTER-BOARD-Latest-Software-/120967105011?ssPageName=ADME:B:FSEL:US:1123
> 

It's similar, but probably not right for this application. It outputs VGA, which is already obsolescent, at a maximum resolution of 1360x768. The goal of this project is to drive modern 16:9 monitors and TVs at 1080p, over HDMI. I believe that board on eBay is intended for replacing monitors in coin-op video games, which generally have very different video hardware compared to vintage 8-bit home computers. Has anybody tried this board with home computers that are known to be troublesome with modern displays? I'm at least interested in seeing how they got the price down to $40, and whether anything in their solution might be usable for this application without being able to read Chinese datasheets. :)


On May 23, 2015, at 08:59, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:

> Am 23.05.15 um 17:24 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
>> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic.
> What about the analogy of Software Defined Radio:
> Use only as much electronics as minimal necessary to get the input
> signal digitized by a high speed ADC.

I initially considered using SDR techniques for the TV demodulation. Using an off-the-shelf TV tuner IC would probably be much cheaper than building an appropriate RF front end from scratch, though if it outputs an IF instead of baseband then SDR techniques might still be the cheapest way to extract the video baseband, since the design would have a couple of ADCs in it in any case to handle Y/C from a C64. Don't want the ADCs to be too expensive, though...

> Maybe some cheap DVB-T USB thing
> can be abused for the ADC part. Do the processing in software on a
> "normal" computer. (PeeCee, some ARM single board thing.)
> Disadvantage:
> - needs extra PeeCee / ARM-SBC for processing.
> - No obscure FPGA magic needed.

+ Latency

I think that's a non-starter due to latency. I can't imagine the overall latency being lower than several video frames, and that would be a killer for games. If it could work with sufficiently low latency, then using something like a Raspberry Pi or Beaglebone Black instead of a PC could lower the price and make it more stand-aloney.



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 11:57:25 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 09:57:25 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C42CB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C42CB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <B4914624-0D9E-4A10-AA45-D55E5896991C@nf6x.net>


> On May 23, 2015, at 09:25, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Handling the VHF/UHF tuner economically may be another sticky point. Maxim makes a tuner chip that's available 
>> at Digi-Key, but I refuse to design Maxim parts into anything on account of off-topic reasons. Mouser has stock of 
>> a very inexpensive ST tuner chip that looks very promising, but the full datasheet isn't openly available. I need to 
>> contact ST to see if I can talk them out of it. Their site mentions an NDA for the eval board, so it might be tough, 
>> particularly since my intention would be for my design to be open to allow off-label uses.
> 
> What I say below covers how it was generally done in the UK/Europe. No idea about elsewhere.
> 
> Building a UHF tuner (even assuming you have a working design) is non-trivial. To give you some idea, the 
> inductors are often straight metal strips, layout and length is critical. If you bend one, you throw the tuning
> way off....

Yup. I'm a radio amateur and an electrical engineer working with GPS stuff, so I understand the pain! But nowadays, a VHF/UHF tuner is a single IC, possibly surrounded by a small handful of fixed inductors. The problems are:

* Might not be able to buy it in small quantity.
* Might need to read Chinese to understand the datasheet.
* Datasheet might simply be unavailable to individuals, even if the part is available.

I haven't begun trying to crack that egg yet, but there may a successful path there. With modern parts, even a dumb digital designer like me can successfully design RF front ends operating at 1.5 GHz, and cram an entire GPS receiver onto a fingernail-sized PCB. It's black magic if somebody makes the right chip. And it's still do-able if they don't make the magic chip... it's just a lot more expensive than consumer electronics have conditioned us to expect.

I think there used to be a rule of thumb for microwave work to not try for over 10dB of gain per inch of circuit, or something like that. But now, slapping down a 20dB or greater gain LNA circuit the size of a barley corn is no big deal. Being able to make the whole circuit a lot smaller than a wavelength eliminates a lot of the pain.

As an example, Mouser carries a single-chip tuner for $2.32 at quantity 1. It's by Silicon Labs (I think I mistakenly states ST earlier). But only a short-form datasheet is available openly, and I need to contact SiLabs to see if I can get a full datasheet. I also don't know whether this analog TV tuner chip will remain in production, vs. Mouser buying some TV manufacturer's leftover parts.

> The output of the tuner fed a suitable IF filter (a SAW device was about the easiest to use) then the IF
> amplifiers (video and audio) and then detectors.

The output of a single-chip tuner might also be at IF. The Maxim part (which I will not use) outputs at 36 MHz, I think. Can't tell the output of the SiLabs part without more info. Hopefully it's either baseband or a lower IF frequency that I could sample with a cheaper ADCs for digital down-conversion. Needing to support a 36 MHz IF would probably increase ADC cost vs. using ones that just need to sample baseband or a low IF.

SAW filters are also black magic, and nowadays they are TINY!

> Oh yes, in the UK the sound carrier was 6MHz offset from the video carrier, in the rest of Europe the spacing
> was 5.5MHz. So if you want to handle sound (some computers sent their sound output over the RF output) you
> may need to cover both.

And US NTSC puts the sound carrier at 4.5 MHz, so there's another thing in favor of using SDR techniques for some portion of the demodulation if I can't find a Magic Chip that does the work more cheaply. The chroma subcarriers are also at different frequencies in the various standards.


> 
> At the output of this section you had composite video and line-level audio. What you do with those is up to
> you....

And that's where the fun begins! The plan is to infer what color the vintage computer was trying to display at any given pixel, with knowledge of the dirty tricks it used to get that color cheaply. Then cram that inferred pixel into the frame buffer, and convert the video format on the other side of the frame buffer.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 12:04:22 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 10:04:22 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
 <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net>

I got my TK50 drive from eBay. Boy, that tape feeding mechanism sure looks screwy! I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is), but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com  Sat May 23 12:02:32 2015
From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:02:32 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>,
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB1014469@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>

> ...
> His mention of a line buffer is already my "Oh, duh!" moment 
> about how to use cheaper external SDRAM instead of on-FPGA 
> dual-port memories for the frame buffer. The dual-port memories 
> are very convenient, but having enough to form a frame buffer 
> pushes the design up into over-$100 FPGAs.
> 
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/

Don't forget that most FPGA block RAMs can be accessed in a dual ported manner even if they aren't physically laid out that way.  Depending on the color space and resolution, most FPGAs should be able to satisfy the RAM requirements for a framebuffer.  I know the Xilinx ones provide the required IP for free, and I'm sure other manufacturers do as well.  Depending on how much RAM you need, external memory could be the most cost effective approach anyway.

Christopher

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat May 23 12:11:04 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 19:11:04 +0200
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
 <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>
 <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5560B4A8.8050503@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-23 19:04, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I got my TK50 drive from eBay. Boy, that tape feeding mechanism sure looks screwy! I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is), but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel.

It's not that bad. The TK50 sometimes get the pickup unhooked from the 
arm, but once you realize how it works, it's really easy to fix it when 
that happens. Apart from that, the tape movement works fine. When the 
pickup lead gets unhooked you cannot even put a cartridge in.

The other problem (as I mentioned) is dirty heads. That will cause the 
tape to fail to actually load, since the heads will move up and down 
trying to find track 1 and eventually give up. At which point you see it 
flashing quickly red on the load button.

The third issue is a general problem with just one button expected to do 
all functions, and just one lamp in the button indicating issues. The 
drive can just get confused, and you cannot tell what it is doing, and 
it is not possible to unload the tape. Very annoying. You can usually 
solve that by power cycling the thing.

This all worked better in the TK70. I guess they had to figure things 
out by trial and error. :-)

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sat May 23 12:28:39 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 13:28:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>

On Sat, 23 May 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:

>
> On May 23, 2015, at 8:24 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>
>> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've 
>> been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough 
>> dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer.

Getting an acceptable combination of crisp 80-column text and proper color 
aliasing from a converter is decidedly non-trivial.  I own one of just 
about every commercially available (and hobby) converters and precisely 
none of them provides a universal solution.  Some give great displays from 
an Amiga and suck for anything else.  Of my two (pricey) CVP CM-345S 
converters, only one provides useable display from an Apple IIGS.  My 
GBBS-8220 can occasionally be coaxed into giving a solid display from a 
Color Computer 3.  The list goes on...

> Are you on the CoCo mailing list? Have you seen the RGB2VGA by Luis 
> Antoniosi (CoCoDemus)? I know at one point he had been tinkering with 
> making it support composite from the Apple II. It?s semi open-source, I 
> think there are 2 versions and the latest version is currently all 
> closed source.

Luis's converter comes the closest to providing usable display from an 
Apple II, but (for me at least) only with certain levels FPGA code. 
Still, he is putting a huge amount of effort into the project and I have 
high hopes this may be a robust one-size-fits-all solution.

If transparent, tweak-free emulation of a classic CRT display were easily 
doable, it would have been done by now.


-- 

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 23 12:41:26 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:41:26 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <B4914624-0D9E-4A10-AA45-D55E5896991C@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C42CB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <B4914624-0D9E-4A10-AA45-D55E5896991C@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C42F2@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> The output of a single-chip tuner might also be at IF. The Maxim part (which I will not use) outputs at 36 MHz, I 
> think. Can't tell the output of the SiLabs part without more info. Hopefully it's either baseband or a lower IF 

36MHz does sound like the standard TV IF frequency.

> frequency that I could sample with a cheaper ADCs for digital down-conversion. Needing to support a 36 MHz 
> IF would probably increase ADC cost vs. using ones that just need to sample baseband or a low IF.

> SAW filters are also black magic, and nowadays they are TINY!

Problem with TINY parts is soldering them :-). The SAW filters I used (with a conventional tuner module) were
round metal cans about 0.5" in diameter with 8 pins on IIRC a 0.1" spacing. Very easy to handle. If you are 
designing something for others to build (even in principle, i.e. you are making it an open design) then using 
impossible to handle parts is a bad thing if there are alternatives.

> > Oh yes, in the UK the sound carrier was 6MHz offset from the video carrier, in the rest of Europe the spacing
> > was 5.5MHz. So if you want to handle sound (some computers sent their sound output over the RF output) you
> > may need to cover both.


> And US NTSC puts the sound carrier at 4.5 MHz, so there's another thing in favor of using SDR techniques for 
> some portion of the demodulation if I can't find a Magic Chip that does the work more cheaply. The chroma 
> subcarriers are also at different frequencies in the various standards.

And IIRC US NTSC uses AM sound (Europe uses FM). I think you can forget about stereo sound, since
I doubt any home computer had a stereo RF modulator.

Be warned that there are many versions of PAL. PAL B/G and PAL I are the ones used in Europe and the UK, and
are basically compatible apart from the sound carrier offset (there are other differences, but they are unlikely
to matter here). But there is also PAL M and PAL N. at least. I forget which way round they are, but both have
a colour carrier around 3.58MHz. One is 625 line the other is 525 line. I think one was used for TV in South
America, did any home computers there use it? 

I doubt you would have to support system A (405 line) or system E (819 line), both AFAIK were only ever used
for monochrome signals. I can't think of a computer that would use them.

>
> > At the output of this section you had composite video and line-level audio. What you do with those is up to
> > you....

> And that's where the fun begins! The plan is to infer what color the vintage computer was trying to display at 
> any given pixel, with knowledge of the dirty tricks it used to get that color cheaply. Then cram that inferred pixel 
> into the frame buffer, and convert the video format on the other side of the frame buffer.

Sure. I think that is the interesting (and complex) part of the project. If you can get that right, you could even
just tell users to either tap the video off at the input to the RF modulator, or use an old VCR for the tuner/IF
section. 

Evil thought (and I have not worked this out yet). You are going to be connecting the RF signal straight from
the computer to this unit. Do you really need a _tuner_? You have essentially one strongish signal. What about
an untuned receiver and demodulator? At VHF totally possible, UHF might be a lot harder...

-tony




--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat May 23 12:45:53 2015
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 19:45:53 +0200
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <5560A694.6020501@e-bbes.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <5560A3ED.3090704@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5560A694.6020501@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <5560BCD1.1040106@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 23.05.15 um 18:11 schrieb emanuel stiebler:
>> Advantage:
>> - No obscure FPGA magic needed.
>>
>> Disadvantage:
>> - No obscure FPGA magic needed.
> 
> ?
Depending on your personal preference FPGAs can be an annoying fight  in
an obscure HDL with proprietary tools running on Window$, or it can be
lots of fun and new things to learn. :-)
-- 

tsch??,
       Jochen


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 23 12:45:48 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:45:48 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4307@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> Getting an acceptable combination of crisp 80-column text and proper color
> aliasing from a converter is decidedly non-trivial.  I own one of just
> about every commercially available (and hobby) converters and precisely
> none of them provides a universal solution.  Some give great displays from
> an Amiga and suck for anything else.  Of my two (pricey) CVP CM-345S
> converters, only one provides useable display from an Apple IIGS.  My
> GBBS-8220 can occasionally be coaxed into giving a solid display from a
> Color Computer 3.  The list goes on...

Given that the OP is planning on using an FPGA in his converter (not surpisingly), 
is the solution to have different configuration files for different machines? So the 
setup for an Apple ][ is optimised for its aliased colour, while that for a BBC micro
handles 80 column text a bit better

-tony

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 13:18:16 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 11:18:16 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>
Message-ID: <AF1EFE0F-B9B5-436F-B1EE-06678ADDB249@nf6x.net>


> On May 23, 2015, at 10:28, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 23 May 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 23, 2015, at 8:24 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer.
> 
> Getting an acceptable combination of crisp 80-column text and proper color aliasing from a converter is decidedly non-trivial.

Even back in the day, I believe it involved swapping the cable between a monochrome monitor and a color one. I expect that this universal converter idea will require a way for the user to tell it whether they want color or monochrome video at the moment (and might as well let them choose what color phosphor to emulate). That way, an Apple II user who wishes to use modern displays could switch between 80 column mono mode for text or color mode for graphics, without swapping cables or displays.


>  I own one of just about every commercially available (and hobby) converters and precisely none of them provides a universal solution.  Some give great displays from an Amiga and suck for anything else.  Of my two (pricey) CVP CM-345S converters, only one provides useable display from an Apple IIGS.  My GBBS-8220 can occasionally be coaxed into giving a solid display from a Color Computer 3.  The list goes on...

Aha! I've heard Nth-hand accounts of trouble getting vintage computers to play with video converters, but you sound like one of the folks with firsthand experience.

> If transparent, tweak-free emulation of a classic CRT display were easily doable, it would have been done by now.

Agreed! I envision that the converter should have some sort of smarts to help it figure out what sort of input it sees, but even in the ideal case it'll probably need some capability for user tweaking or mode switching for corner cases.

> On May 23, 2015, at 10:41, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Problem with TINY parts is soldering them :-). The SAW filters I used (with a conventional tuner module) were
> round metal cans about 0.5" in diameter with 8 pins on IIRC a 0.1" spacing. Very easy to handle. If you are 
> designing something for others to build (even in principle, i.e. you are making it an open design) then using 
> impossible to handle parts is a bad thing if there are alternatives.

The SAW filters I used are small enough that my 46-year-old eyes have trouble seeing them without a magnifying glass. :) I do almost all of my soldering under a stereo microscope any more. But I can solder down to 0201 discretes that way, although I don't like going smaller than 0402. I don't have a lot of experience with hot air soldering yet, but it has become quite available to hobbyists, with hot air systems now available for around $100. The "Maker" movement has done a lot of good in the area of making surface mount soldering more approachable by Joe Random Hobbyist.

Now, one of the engineering problems I'd need to solve would be how FEW PCB layers I could get away with using that FPGA. 16+ layers is not uncommon for full die escape, but layer counts like that are far too expensive at the volumes this thing might sell in. Cell phones have high layer counts, but only because they sell in huge volumes.

I favor Xilinx FPGAs since they're what I use in my day job, and those are all BGAs. I would not offer this device as a kit in any case; I've helped Ian out doing rework for US FreHD customers, and even good old through-hole soldering can be hard for folks without a lot of experience. I'd rather design for automated assembly than spend a lot of time on tech support for kit builders who had trouble. With a BGA on it, the board's going through a reflow oven anyway.

> And IIRC US NTSC uses AM sound (Europe uses FM). I think you can forget about stereo sound, since
> I doubt any home computer had a stereo RF modulator.

No, I think it's FM. I recall listening to TV audio on my US FM tactical mil radios whose frequency coverage extended over the bottom 2-3 VHF TV channels, back before they turned off the analog broadcasts. I agree that stereo support isn't needed, as stereo TV post-dates the computers in question if I'm not mistaken. But if I do the final demod digitally in an FPGA, then adding AM support wouldn't be a big deal if needed.

> Be warned that there are many versions of PAL.

That sounds like a deep rabbit hole to fall down! It might result in a case of "if you want me to add support for the computers from your country, send me one so I can develop with it". But this is also a point in favor of using an FPGA: Fairly major architectural changes just look like firmware upgrades to the end user, who can remain blissfully ignorant of my development pain. :) If I use one of the Zynq chips (which I'm currently favoring), then upgrades can probably be as simple as swapping an SD card for the end user. Don't want to force people to buy a programming cable and download a 15 gig development platform!

> Evil thought (and I have not worked this out yet). You are going to be connecting the RF signal straight from
> the computer to this unit. Do you really need a _tuner_? You have essentially one strongish signal. What about
> an untuned receiver and demodulator? At VHF totally possible, UHF might be a lot harder...

That evil thought is definitely worth exploring! The thing I'd worry about is the strong local AM broadcast station getting in through the computer's lousy shielding and ruining the plan. I have a local AM station that confuses my MFJ antenna analyzer if I don't use a broadcast band blocking filter, or wait until they turn down the output power at 8PM.

> On May 23, 2015, at 10:45, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> 
> Depending on your personal preference FPGAs can be an annoying fight  in
> an obscure HDL with proprietary tools running on Window$, or it can be
> lots of fun and new things to learn. :-)

Dealing with them is part of my day job, so maybe I'm a good person to tackle this one? :)

> On May 23, 2015, at 10:45, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> Given that the OP is planning on using an FPGA in his converter (not surpisingly), 
> is the solution to have different configuration files for different machines? So the 
> setup for an Apple ][ is optimised for its aliased colour, while that for a BBC micro
> handles 80 column text a bit better

I think that the Apple ][ application needs to handle both mono 80 column and color graphics as a user-selectable and easily-toggled option, since those machines were very commonly used with both mono and color monitors. Switching configuration files should be an available option, but I think that color vs. mono selection is important enough to get a mode switch in the standard configuration. I think that configuration file changing would be better for oddball cases that are so unlike standard NTSC or PAL that supporting them in the same design would make the architecture messy.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May 23 13:30:29 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 11:30:29 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>


On May 23, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:

> Has anybody tried this board with home computers that are known to be troublesome with modern displays? 

The GBS-8200/8220 doesn?t support composite input, only RGB. I?ve used the board on quite a few of my computers that output RGB and it works fine. I?ve even got a couple of blog posts:

ZX Spectrum 128: 		http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/233
Commodore 128 CGA:	http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/219 
BBC Micro:			http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/211

I still need to hook it up to the CoCo 3 RGB, but I can?t imagine any reason it wouldn?t work. It also works fine with my Apple IIgs.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sat May 23 14:05:58 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 15:05:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231502220.5159@z87>

On Sat, 23 May 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:

> The GBS-8200/8220 doesn?t support composite input, only RGB. I?ve used 
> the board on quite a few of my computers that output RGB and it works 
> fine. I?ve even got a couple of blog posts:
>
> ZX Spectrum 128: 		http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/233
> Commodore 128 CGA:	http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/219
> BBC Micro:			http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/211
>
> I still need to hook it up to the CoCo 3 RGB, but I can?t imagine any 
> reason it wouldn?t work. It also works fine with my Apple IIgs.

That really surprises me.  Mine was utterly unusable with the IIGS.  The 
desktop (and all icons, folders, etc.) had distinct vertical bands through 
them.  Also, lots of dot-crawl at sharp edges from what I recall.

I rather strongly suspect that there isn't any such thing as a single 
GBBS-8200.  Rather, the manufacturer is constantly changing the firmware 
(if not hardware) and it's a crap shoot as to what particular 
ideosyncrasies will be encountered with an individual board.

Has anyone heard talk of the GBBS boards being field flashable?



-- 

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sat May 23 14:08:18 2015
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 15:08:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <AF1EFE0F-B9B5-436F-B1EE-06678ADDB249@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231319450.5159@z87>
 <AF1EFE0F-B9B5-436F-B1EE-06678ADDB249@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231506170.5159@z87>

On Sat, 23 May 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:

>
>> On May 23, 2015, at 10:28, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 23 May 2015, Chris Osborn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>  I own one of just about every commercially available (and hobby) 
>> converters and precisely none of them provides a universal solution. 
>> Some give great displays from an Amiga and suck for anything else.  Of 
>> my two (pricey) CVP CM-345S converters, only one provides useable 
>> display from an Apple IIGS.  My GBBS-8220 can occasionally be coaxed 
>> into giving a solid display from a Color Computer 3.  The list goes 
>> on...
>
> Aha! I've heard Nth-hand accounts of trouble getting vintage computers 
> to play with video converters, but you sound like one of the folks with 
> firsthand experience.

Yes, with all the scars and credit-card activity to prove it.



-- 

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May 23 14:14:03 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:14:03 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231502220.5159@z87>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505231502220.5159@z87>
Message-ID: <BF6B304D-039F-4544-B223-F25DFCC53ECB@fozztexx.com>


On May 23, 2015, at 12:05 PM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:

> That really surprises me.  Mine was utterly unusable with the IIGS.  The desktop (and all icons, folders, etc.) had distinct vertical bands through them.  Also, lots of dot-crawl at sharp edges from what I recall.

I believe mine is a knock-off clone, and not a ?genuine? GBS-8200.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From chrise at pobox.com  Sat May 23 14:35:21 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 14:35:21 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
References: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>

On Saturday (05/23/2015 at 11:30AM -0700), Chris Osborn wrote:
> 
> On May 23, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
> 
> > Has anybody tried this board with home computers that are known to be troublesome with modern displays? 
> 
> The GBS-8200/8220 doesn?t support composite input, only RGB. I?ve used the board on quite a few of my computers that output RGB and it works fine. I?ve even got a couple of blog posts:
> 
> ZX Spectrum 128: 		http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/233
> Commodore 128 CGA:	http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/219 
> BBC Micro:			http://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/211
> 
> I still need to hook it up to the CoCo 3 RGB, but I can?t imagine any reason it wouldn?t work. It also works fine with my Apple IIgs.

The GBS-8200/8220 does support CGA and I have successfully used it
with various DEC terminals (VT240, Rainbow) by front-ending it with
a modern sync seperator (TI LMH1980) so that, in the case of VT240,
which does sync-on-green, I ended up with RGB and H and V sync going
into the GBS-8200.   Looks great on a 15" VGA LCD...

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist N?JCF

From classiccmp at crash.com  Sat May 23 14:40:07 2015
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:40:07 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
 <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>
 <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5560D797.9080402@crash.com>

On 05/23/2015 10:04, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> I'd like to get a modern DLT drive for my modern computer backups

The current hotness is LTO (Linear Tape Open), I think LTO-5 gives you 
3.0TB assuming 2:1 compression - and LTO-6 is probably the current flavor.

> (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is)

Careful hunting on eBay can produce LTO-4 capabilities (0.8/1.6TB) for 
not too many vital organs. Just make sure you've got a fibre channel or 
SAS interface to talk to it.

> ... but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel.

If you take a careful look at the TK and DLT mechanisms, I think you'll 
see that they're an awful lot closer to an open reel design than any of 
the cartridge designs (QIC, DAT, 8mm, AIT, etc).

I'd never say they're perfect because that would immediately render all 
my backups on any media unreadable. But if I have to trust a tape 
mechanism, I'll stick with the TK-DLT-LTO line.

--S.


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Sat May 23 14:42:47 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:42:47 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>
References: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
 <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <C725C5C4-B8D9-47F9-8F3B-B17DEC007CA8@fozztexx.com>


On May 23, 2015, at 12:35 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:

> The GBS-8200/8220 does support CGA 

The GBS-8200/8220 supports analog signals, not digital. It will directly support the 15khz misnamed ?CGA? of arcade monitors (which is the same RGB signal the IIgs puts out), but that?s an analog signal, not digital. For use with the Commodore 128 I had to build a small circuit which converts the RGBI signal to analog RGB.

In the case of the BBC Micro which also puts out 5V TTL digital RGB, I didn?t bother with lowering the levels since the GBS-8200 didn?t care and I didn?t need to deal with a 4th intensity signal.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 15:52:54 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 13:52:54 -0700
Subject: 54 TK50 tapes on eBay
In-Reply-To: <5560D797.9080402@crash.com>
References: <trinity-8899e195-cedf-4676-aad1-57b482715e06-1432020194687@3capp-gmx-bs56>
 <555B0FAA.6020800@update.uu.se> <555CDB2F.9030303@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <555CDC5B.3040004@update.uu.se> <555CF18F.10404@email.wustl.edu>
 <555D790B.8000004@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <556000F5.1030205@pico-systems.com>
 <9D695D30-2BBC-4023-AEDA-3D6282CF518D@nf6x.net> <5560D797.9080402@crash.com>
Message-ID: <DE31E86E-6C27-491A-851C-4331B40A9C38@nf6x.net>


> On May 23, 2015, at 12:40, Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
> 
>> (after I sell a few more kidneys, that is)
> 
> Careful hunting on eBay can produce LTO-4 capabilities (0.8/1.6TB) for not too many vital organs. Just make sure you've got a fibre channel or SAS interface to talk to it.

Right. Me being the smart, forward-thinking guy I'm not, I bought a nice, sexy Mac Pro, and then a nice little mid-range QNAP NAS that has neither fibre channel nor SAS capabilities before I determined that I really could use proper tape backup and started investigating what interfaces are suitable for that. There's one very nice-looking LTO-6 drive with a Thunderbolt interface that will plug into my Mac Pro. Lots of kidneys for that one!

> 
>> ... but I'm still a bit suspicious of their similar (identical?) tape feeding scheme. All of my bad experience with things like QIC, DAT, etc. had led me to be very suspicious of tape systems other than 1/2" open reel.
> 
> If you take a careful look at the TK and DLT mechanisms, I think you'll see that they're an awful lot closer to an open reel design than any of the cartridge designs (QIC, DAT, 8mm, AIT, etc).
> 
> I'd never say they're perfect because that would immediately render all my backups on any media unreadable. But if I have to trust a tape mechanism, I'll stick with the TK-DLT-LTO line.

Thank you for the reassurances about the mechanism family. That will help once I stumble over another cache of unguarded kidneys. :)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Sat May 23 15:55:42 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 13:55:42 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <C725C5C4-B8D9-47F9-8F3B-B17DEC007CA8@fozztexx.com>
References: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
 <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>
 <C725C5C4-B8D9-47F9-8F3B-B17DEC007CA8@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <529FFE67-D40F-4C39-ADC6-4CD463C2048A@nf6x.net>

Speaking of digital RGB (and RGBI) interfaces, the hardware cost of adding them to an FPGA-based converter would be so cheap that I might as well add them to the plan. Will an analog RGB interface for converting things like 15kHz Amiga outputs feature-creep its way in there, too, I wonder? :)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 23 17:10:05 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 15:10:05 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <529FFE67-D40F-4C39-ADC6-4CD463C2048A@nf6x.net>
References: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
 <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>
 <C725C5C4-B8D9-47F9-8F3B-B17DEC007CA8@fozztexx.com>
 <529FFE67-D40F-4C39-ADC6-4CD463C2048A@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <5560FABD.8090307@sydex.com>

There are probably a fair number of "TV cards" in both ISA and PCI 
wandering about, since they're not terribly useful with the advent of 
digital TV (and the web).

Has anyone hooked up an ordinary NTSC modulator with one of those and an 
8 bit PC that relies on the peculiarities of NTSC chroma encoding?

If so, how's the reception quality?

--Chuck



From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May 23 18:24:06 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:24:06 -0600
Subject: Monitor wanted (was Re: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use)
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTh7zX54tFsjhy920qvyBu5q6eZb66CN5snCO47smna1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Would you like some of the REAL monitors?  They will do all sorts of bizarre

I'd like some of the REAL monitors, such as an NEC Multisync 3, that
can do VGA *and* NTSC-rate analog RGB.  At some point the monitor
companies stopped bothering to make them handle horizontal scan rates
below 30 kHz.

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sat May 23 19:48:02 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:48:02 -0700
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432400400.87109.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432400400.87109.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1182752492EC4591B681F6CFD941DCFB@workshop>

Yes I was asking myself the same question, and your answers continue to help
a lot. 

I think I should retrace the path of technology evolution. Start getting it
up with paper tape tests and BCS. That probably means working mostly in
assembly and getting to know the most basic level of the machine. Which is
just about what the doctor prescribed. 

Then add the mag tape for which I have the tape and the cards.

I got a 7900 disk though (with cables and power supply, but no interface
cards to go with it!). I'd love to get that one going later on. Then it
would make sense to have the bigger memory to run disk based OS systems. So
7900 interface card and memory are definitely on my hunt list...

By the way I also have a punched card reader which I just restored.
Documation ML600, but the exact same model that HP re-branded I believe. Do
you know which interface cards I need to connect it to the HP-1000? I
suppose one of the 16 bit IO ones with a driver to go with it?

Sorry to keep picking your brain, but that is so much more efficient than
trying to piece it together (usually wrong at first) from an disorganized
pile of documentation!

Marc


From: "J. David Bryan" <jdbryan at acm.org>
>> So I might be in the hunt for the cards or alternate solutions you
>> mentioned.

>I'd suggest that the question to answer first is whether you want to expend

>the effort and expense to gather the moderate amount of additional hardware

>necessary to run one of the more advanced disc-based OS versions that can 
>use DMS.  Note that the design of the memory mapping hardware in the 1000 
>requires explicit software support (i.e., programming of the DMS hardware) 
>in order to use more than 32KW of memory.  Earlier OSes that did not 
>support DMS will simply ignore all memory in the machine over 32K, even 
>when DMS is present.
>With the hardware you have, you can run a paper-tape based OS, such as BCS 
>(the Basic Control System) in 24K.  BCS is fairly primitive, but it does 
>offer an assembler, FORTRAN IV, and ALGOL compilers, and paper-tape BASIC 
>interpreters were also available (from the user contributed library).
>The hardware requirements for running the disc-based RTEs are listed on 
>these HP Computer Museum pages:
>  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=565
>  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=566
> -- Dave


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 23 19:56:45 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:56:45 -0700
Subject: Monitor wanted (was Re: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTh7zX54tFsjhy920qvyBu5q6eZb66CN5snCO47smna1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTTh7zX54tFsjhy920qvyBu5q6eZb66CN5snCO47smna1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <556121CD.2040200@sydex.com>

On 05/23/2015 04:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>> Would you like some of the REAL monitors?  They will do all sorts of bizarre
>
> I'd like some of the REAL monitors, such as an NEC Multisync 3, that
> can do VGA *and* NTSC-rate analog RGB.  At some point the monitor
> companies stopped bothering to make them handle horizontal scan rates
> below 30 kHz.

Find an old Mitsubishi Diamondscan, say the AUM-1381A and you can pretty 
much do anything up to 800x600 VGA.

You want connectors?  It's got connectors.

http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/a4000hard/m1381.html

--Chuck


From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Sat May 23 20:14:56 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 18:14:56 -0700
Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP 10342B pre-processor
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432400400.87109.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432400400.87109.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <8C8A3B26EF6A4C85BD806B34184DF13C@workshop>


>From: Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>
> Is it on this disk?
>
http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=sw574&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-5369
02556.536879990&id=sw574

No, but a generous member of this list sent me the files off line. Is this a
helpful group or what. I am all set.
Marc



From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sat May 23 19:59:57 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 20:59:57 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>

We spent Friday and Saturday debugging the PDP-12. We replaced a bad SN7400
driver chip and three bad bulbs in the front panel. We can now trust what
we see on the front panel for debugging information.

We tried some of the PDP-8 and LINC instructions and noticed that some of
the bits in the Instruction Register were stuck on. We swapped the two M216
(six flip-flops in three SN7474 ICs) flip-chips that make up the IR and the
stuck bits moved. We replaced the broken M216 with a spare, and now all of
the IR bits work correctly. With a working IR, we found that lots of the
PDP-8 instructions, and many of the LINC instructions now work. We can turn
the relays on and off and make noises through the speaker.

During other DEC restorations we have replaced LOTs of SN7474 ICs. We
pulled all of the M216 flip-chips and ran them in Warren's tester. We found
and replaced another bad M216, the one in slot E8 that controls the core
memory states. Now core memory works!

We went through the troubleshooting guide in Maintenance Volume-II. It has
a procedure for doing a quick test of core memory that revealed a problem
in the upper addresses. From looking at the prints it had to be one of two
G221 flip-chips. We swapped in a spare and found that the one in slot C09
was bad. Now all of the first 4k of memory works.

There is a problem with any PDP-8 instruction that has an address in the
lower 9 bits. All 12 bits of the instruction are used, so it makes a mess.
Debugging that issue will be the next project.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 23 21:26:27 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 19:26:27 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <5560FABD.8090307@sydex.com>
References: <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
 <E375D306-B664-413F-B699-CD620092210B@nf6x.net>
 <1FA14F56-3CD5-4A50-BE0A-AB15B4274CDD@fozztexx.com>
 <20150523193520.GR2522@n0jcf.net>
 <C725C5C4-B8D9-47F9-8F3B-B17DEC007CA8@fozztexx.com>
 <529FFE67-D40F-4C39-ADC6-4CD463C2048A@nf6x.net> <5560FABD.8090307@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <556136D3.2040005@sydex.com>

If you want to go big-screen, some of the Presentation displays (e.g. 
Mitsubishi Megaview Pro) have very wide sync ranges (e.g. Horizontal 
15-90Khz) that should do very well.  They're all CRTs and range up into 
the 55 inch range, so you should have a strong back...

--Chuck


From hpfparts at yahoo.com  Sat May 23 23:07:47 2015
From: hpfparts at yahoo.com (HP Friedrichs)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 21:07:47 -0700
Subject: More HP-1000 Parts - Get 'em while they last!
Message-ID: <1432440467.83409.YahooMailBasic@web140302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I recently posted reference to a page on my personal web site listing HP-1000 assets for sale. There was a flurry of interest. As of this afternoon, the last of a half-dozen boxes were shipped to the new owners of many of these items. Thank you to everyone for their interest and thank you for your patience. 

Several individuals have expressed interest in acquiring more parts. The good news is that I still have items left. 

The bad news is that the 256k and 128K memory boards, +True In/Out, Term, Timebase, Error Correct, FPP Arith, and FPP control cards are all gone. So consider this fair warning: If there is something else you need to restore your system or to build a reserve of spares, now is the time to grab it before it's gone, too.

The inventory sheets have been updated on my site to reflect what is left. Some items are being offered piece-by-piece, some I'd prefer to sell as a set. Details are on my site. 

www.hpfriedrichs.com/hpfparts/hpfparts.htm

73,
Pete
AC7ZL

From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May 23 23:15:27 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 22:15:27 -0600
Subject: Monitor wanted (was Re: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use)
In-Reply-To: <556121CD.2040200@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTTh7zX54tFsjhy920qvyBu5q6eZb66CN5snCO47smna1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <556121CD.2040200@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTScUGGxv8G5-euRoW9_SVpth9HO8Ztxjz=wnNBak1+fCw@mail.gmail.com>

On 05/23/2015 04:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I'd like some of the REAL monitors, such as an NEC Multisync 3, that
> can do VGA *and* NTSC-rate analog RGB.  At some point the monitor
> companies stopped bothering to make them handle horizontal scan rates
> below 30 kHz.

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Find an old Mitsubishi Diamondscan, say the AUM-1381A and you can pretty
> much do anything up to 800x600 VGA.

I was given a few Mitsubishi Diamondscan CRT monitors last year, but
unfortunately they're too new to support 15kHz horizontal.

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun May 24 01:03:01 2015
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 02:03:01 -0400
Subject: Monitor wanted (was Re: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use)
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTScUGGxv8G5-euRoW9_SVpth9HO8Ztxjz=wnNBak1+fCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14d848470e3-5aa5-4eca4@webprd-m20.mail.aol.com>


a lot of monitors  have been and are being  junked ....
Back when we were getting a lot in  we would set xtras in the alley
I hope someone got them that will treasure them.
Ed# 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sat, May 23, 2015 9:15 pm
Subject: Re: Monitor wanted (was Re: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use)


On 05/23/2015 04:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I'd like some of the REAL monitors,
such as an NEC Multisync 3, that
> can do VGA *and* NTSC-rate analog RGB.  At
some point the monitor
> companies stopped bothering to make them handle
horizontal scan rates
> below 30 kHz.

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Chuck
Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Find an old Mitsubishi Diamondscan, say the
AUM-1381A and you can pretty
> much do anything up to 800x600 VGA.

I was
given a few Mitsubishi Diamondscan CRT monitors last year, but
unfortunately
they're too new to support 15kHz horizontal.

 

From jdbryan at acm.org  Sun May 24 01:22:36 2015
From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 02:22:36 -0400
Subject: Memory options for an HP 1000 (HP 21MX / 2112A)
In-Reply-To: <1182752492EC4591B681F6CFD941DCFB@workshop>
References: <mailman.1.1432400400.87109.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <1182752492EC4591B681F6CFD941DCFB@workshop>
Message-ID: <E1YwPIy-0006Uo-Sf@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 17:48, Marc Verdiell wrote:

> I think I should retrace the path of technology evolution. Start
> getting it up with paper tape tests and BCS. That probably means working
> mostly in assembly and getting to know the most basic level of the
> machine. Which is just about what the doctor prescribed. 

Assuming that you have a working paper tape punch and reader, and the 
associated interface cards, then that's a very workable approach.


> I got a 7900 disk though (with cables and power supply, but no
> interface cards to go with it!). 

The interface is HP product number 13210A.  It's a two-card set; the card 
numbers are 13210-60004 and 13210-60000.  The I/O cable is 13210-60003.


> I'd love to get that one going later on. Then it would make sense to
> have the bigger memory to run disk based OS systems. 

The 7900A was supported through the final RTE versions.  However, you could 
run the disc-based DOS-III OS with just the hardware and memory you have 
(assuming that you add the 7900 disc I/O interface).  With the addition of 
a HP 12539 Time-Base Generator card and 8K more of memory, you could also 
run RTE-II on a 7900.  Neither DMS nor more extensive memory is required 
for these OS versions, which are substantial steps up from BCS in terms of 
sophistication and ease of use.


> By the way I also have a punched card reader which I just restored.
> Documation ML600, but the exact same model that HP re-branded I
> believe. 

That's either the HP 2892A or 2893A, depending on whether it has a TTL or 
differential interface, respectively.


> Do you know which interface cards I need to connect it to the HP-1000? 

The interface is the HP 12924A, which was specific to the 2892A card 
reader.  The 2893A was supported only on the HP 3000, as far as I know.


> I suppose one of the 16 bit IO ones with a driver to go with it?

The general-purpose TTL interfaces apparently would not work.  Drivers for 
the card reader were supplied with the various OSes.


> Sorry to keep picking your brain, but that is so much more efficient
> than trying to piece it together (usually wrong at first) from an
> disorganized pile of documentation!

I'm glad that I can be of help.

                                      -- Dave


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun May 24 21:16:53 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 19:16:53 -0700
Subject: Framebuffer driver for RDI BriteLite IPX?
Message-ID: <55628615.20308@gmail.com>

Hi all --

Sent this query to the Rescue list last week, no bites.  Any Sun 
fanatics here have any ideas?  (Linux/OpenBSD appear to support it, but 
I'd rather keep the OS vintage-appropriate.  For some reason...)

Got myself an RDI BriteLite IPX; a "laptop" (a generous description) 
based around a stock SPARCStation IPX motherboard with a very large 
laptop-style enclosure around it, a 640x480 active-matrix LCD (very 
pretty) and a gigantic lead-acid battery. It has a handle, so it's portable!

Anyway -- I have it up and running and I have SunOS 4.1.4 installed on a 
fresh hard disk (the original drive was long gone when I got it).  
Unfortunately, the LCD framebuffer is unrecognized by SunOS; it 
identifies itself as cgRDI and it's a custom SBUS board that drives the 
640x480 LCD.

 From what I've been able to dig up this driver was packaged as "RDIlcd" 
by RDI but I can't find it, of course.  Anyone happen to have this 
archived somewhere?  Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Josh

From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk  Sun May 24 06:13:47 2015
From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Stephen Merrony)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 12:13:47 +0100
Subject: Online Access to Running AOS/VS Offered
Message-ID: <5561B26B.1030303@stephenmerrony.co.uk>

I've had a lot of help from all over the world getting my Data General 
MV/2500 up and running, so it's time to give a little back...

I am now able to provide on-line access to my operational MV/2500 DC to 
individuals who make reasonable requests for it.

Currently the machine is running AOS/VS 7.70 and has little other than 
the base software installed, although most of the NADGUG library 
contents is available.

I am not willing to run the MV/2500 24x7, so operational times will be 
by mutual agreement. I strongly suggest using DasherQ to connect.  
Access is via telnet provided by a Raspberry Pi acting as a 
serial-to-network gateway to real serial ports (I don't have TCP/IP on 
the machine yet).

If anyone would like access to the machine please email me stating why 
you would like access (even if it is just for nostalgia!) and what time 
zone you are in.

Steve

-- 
/Stephen Merrony
Email: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk
http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/

From evan.linwood at eastek.com.au  Sun May 24 07:07:38 2015
From: evan.linwood at eastek.com.au (Evan Linwood)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 22:07:38 +1000
Subject: Online Access to Running AOS/VS Offered
In-Reply-To: <5561B26B.1030303@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
References: <5561B26B.1030303@stephenmerrony.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002001d0961a$3ae50cb0$b0af2610$@eastek.com.au>

congrats Steve - that's really something!
I'd love to arrange for access (will contact you off-list).



-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Merrony
Sent: Sunday, 24 May 2015 9:14 PM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Online Access to Running AOS/VS Offered

I've had a lot of help from all over the world getting my Data General
MV/2500 up and running, so it's time to give a little back...

I am now able to provide on-line access to my operational MV/2500 DC to individuals who make reasonable requests for it.

Currently the machine is running AOS/VS 7.70 and has little other than the base software installed, although most of the NADGUG library contents is available.

I am not willing to run the MV/2500 24x7, so operational times will be by mutual agreement. I strongly suggest using DasherQ to connect.  
Access is via telnet provided by a Raspberry Pi acting as a serial-to-network gateway to real serial ports (I don't have TCP/IP on the machine yet).

If anyone would like access to the machine please email me stating why you would like access (even if it is just for nostalgia!) and what time zone you are in.

Steve

--
/Stephen Merrony
Email: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk
http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/


From alan at alanlee.org  Mon May 25 07:46:58 2015
From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 08:46:58 -0400
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>

 

On 2015-05-23 11:24, Mark J. Blair wrote: 

> In the middle will be some FPGA to perform any necessary magic. I've been looking at a prohibitively expensive ($115) one that has enough dual-port RAM blocks to support a frame buffer. I need to see if I can push the frame buffer out into external RAM in order to move to a cheaper FPGA. It would be ideal if the video parameters could be figure out automagically, but I have a feeling there will be a need for user-adjusted parameters, and possibly even loading up different FPGA programming to handle some odd-ball signal.
> 
> Output would be HDMI, at 1080p. Are other interfaces and/or resolutions desirable? I'd like to keep it as feature-simple as practical.

OMG, stop. Google "Composite to HDMI" and you will find hundreds of low
cost boxes that do this. Hopefully one of them will work for you. I was
going to do your idea for C64s long ago until I realized there's no way
I can do it nearly as cheap as Mr. Wong in his apartment in Shenzhen,
Guangdong. 

However if you really want to pursue your idea "because it is fun for
you", I suggest looking at the Lattice XO2 Control Development Kit
(novel idea of OpenLDI in/out + LPDDR2), the Digilent Atlys board
(Spartan 6 + dual direct TMDS in&out), or NeTV (Marvell SoC + Spartan 6
w/ dual direct TMDS) as starting points. 

You don't even need a full frame buffer if you need to scale. If the
frame rates match, you can just store one line if you need to horizontal
stretch and/or line-double, or three lines if you want to perform
multi-tap vertical scaling. All HDMI TVs (at least in North America)
support 480i however you generally have to pixel double per the CEA-861
standard to have enough clocks in the HBI/VBI to pass audio. 

-Alan 

 

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon May 25 12:03:38 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 10:03:38 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>


> On May 25, 2015, at 05:46, Alan Hightower <alan at alanlee.org> wrote:
> OMG, stop.

No, thank you. You are not compelled to participate if the idea offends you.

> Google "Composite to HDMI" and you will find hundreds of low
> cost boxes that do this.

And as has been already discussed, none of them is universal, all of them are quirky, and many/most of them work poorly.

> Hopefully one of them will work for you.

If you would like to purchase hundreds of converters to catalog which ones work with each screwball vintage computer, I will welcome the data.

> I was
> going to do your idea for C64s long ago until I realized there's no way
> I can do it nearly as cheap as Mr. Wong in his apartment in Shenzhen,
> Guangdong.

It would be delightful if Mr. Wong saw fit to make the cheap converter that many collectors are asking for, but anecdotal evidence suggests that he has not yet made it. As Mr. Hirsch posted:

>> On May 23, 2015, at 10:28, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I own one of just about every commercially available (and hobby) converters and precisely none of them provides a universal solution. Some give great displays from an Amiga and suck for anything else.  Of my two (pricey) CVP CM-345S converters, only one provides useable display from an Apple IIGS.  My GBBS-8220 can occasionally be coaxed into giving a solid display from a Color Computer 3.  The list goes on...


Our friend Mr. Wong is very good at making inexpensive products using off-the-shelf commercial chips that were designed for use in mass-market products (particularly including zillions of them that are difficult to impossible to buy without learning to speak Chinese and heading over to Shenzen), but I get the impression that handling misbehaving 80's analog video outputs for modern displays in a clean, multi-standard way has been a requirement that's much too niche for the commercial market to address with cheap ASICs. But if I'm wrong about that, I'll be happy to buy a $15 converter or three that just work!


> However if you really want to pursue your idea "because it is fun for
> you", I suggest looking at the Lattice XO2 Control Development Kit
> (novel idea of OpenLDI in/out + LPDDR2), the Digilent Atlys board
> (Spartan 6 + dual direct TMDS in&out), or NeTV (Marvell SoC + Spartan 6
> w/ dual direct TMDS) as starting points.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I'll look at them. I'm leaning towards considering the least expensive Xilinx Zynq chip at the moment, because I am intrigued by the idea of using the CPU core to analyze an unknown incoming signal to see how "automagic" it could be made. I certainly don't expect 100% success, and some user configurability is certainly needed, but it would be pretty neat if the user could plug in an arbitrary computer, and the box could determine "oh, this is PAL on UK channel xx", "this looks like an Apple ][ in monochrome 80 column mode", etc.

> You don't even need a full frame buffer if you need to scale. If the
> frame rates match, you can just store one line if you need to horizontal
> stretch and/or line-double, or three lines if you want to perform
> multi-tap vertical scaling. All HDMI TVs (at least in North America)
> support 480i however you generally have to pixel double per the CEA-861
> standard to have enough clocks in the HBI/VBI to pass audio.

True, but one of my primary goals is to support vintage computers from countries other than the US, so I cannot rely on frame rates matching. I expect that I will have some learning curve to get over to obtain clean scan rate conversion.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon May 25 12:10:37 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 17:10:37 +0000
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>,
 <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C44C9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> > Hopefully one of them will work for you.
> 
> If you would like to purchase hundreds of converters to catalog which ones work with each screwball vintage 
> computer, I will welcome the data.

And then keep on purchasing and evaluating these converters so that when they are updated to use the latest
cheapest IC, you know which ones still work with which machines.

-tony

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Mon May 25 12:32:44 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 10:32:44 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C44C9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>
 <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C44C9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <BDFF4400-69E7-4A7C-9DC1-CD7733B5CFBB@nf6x.net>


> On May 25, 2015, at 10:10, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
>>> Hopefully one of them will work for you.
>> 
>> If you would like to purchase hundreds of converters to catalog which ones work with each screwball vintage 
>> computer, I will welcome the data.
> 
> And then keep on purchasing and evaluating these converters so that when they are updated to use the latest
> cheapest IC, you know which ones still work with which machines.

Ah, that's a good point! The innards of these sorts of products change at the drop of a hat, and I've seen reports of that coin-op video converter being a bit of a pig in a poke in particular depending on the firmware version, whether it's a knock-off, etc. I've also encountered this issue cropping up in ordinary mass-market items, i.e. new purchases of a product suddenly quit working with Linux because the innards got swapped out without any change in the packaging or SKU to indicate that the old drivers won't work any more.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon May 25 14:54:52 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:54:52 -0700
Subject: GE disk drives on ebay, one badged Datacraft
Message-ID: <55637E0C.4030907@jwsss.com>

GE-14-Hawk-Drive-23991-47d266933G3


http://www.ebay.com/itm/261895292646

One of these systems really appears to be a CDC drive, but the other one 
is badged Datacraft 5208, and doesn't look familiar.

Any idea on what it is?  Looks like something that would fit a 
collection of storage devices as a unique item, given that it is 14" 
removable.

This page implies it is a CDC drive, but I've not seen one with the 
front this one has.

http://www.mfarris.com/pack/datacraft.html

thanks
Jim

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Mon May 25 18:15:43 2015
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 16:15:43 -0700
Subject: RDI PowerLite 110 and OpenStep - watchdog-reset
Message-ID: <0CF984CF-7F5D-47E9-A4E7-1A47FCD323FD@gmail.com>

Hi folks,

So I recently made a very poor trade for an RDI PowerLite 110 under the assumption that it could run NeXTstep or OpenStep, as allegedly RDI supplied the PowerLite with this OS in some configurations.

The PowerLite is essentially an SS5 in a chunky, ugly laptop.

When I boot the OpenStep and NeXTstep installers however, at the second stage loader I get a "watchdog-reset" message from OBP.

Ultimately it's the same issue as discussed here:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3153&sid=b8cb75adb7245747301f9e82beef570a

Any hope in getting this to run? Any ideas out there? 

Or am I stuck with a fat ugly wannabe SparcBook 3? (I have a few of the 3GX/3TX family which seem like far nicer machines, the only reason I wanted this RDI P.O.S. Is the weitek framebuffer in the SparcBooks isn't supported by OS/NS, but the CG6 in the RDI supposedly is. What a garbage machine RDI produced with this one...

Thanks,

- Ian

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Mon May 25 18:53:51 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 19:53:51 -0400
Subject: Framebuffer driver for RDI BriteLite IPX?
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=9HOpzX3bdm=YnLLK61eUwNjX13aGNk9XNfaEsZgNRCxQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 19:16:53 -0700
> From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Framebuffer driver for RDI BriteLite IPX?
>
> Hi all --
>
> Sent this query to the Rescue list last week, no bites.  Any Sun
> fanatics here have any ideas?  (Linux/OpenBSD appear to support it, but
> I'd rather keep the OS vintage-appropriate.  For some reason...)
>
> Got myself an RDI BriteLite IPX; a "laptop" (a generous description)
> based around a stock SPARCStation IPX motherboard with a very large
> laptop-style enclosure around it, a 640x480 active-matrix LCD (very
> pretty) and a gigantic lead-acid battery. It has a handle, so it's
> portable!
>
> Anyway -- I have it up and running and I have SunOS 4.1.4 installed on a
> fresh hard disk (the original drive was long gone when I got it).
> Unfortunately, the LCD framebuffer is unrecognized by SunOS; it
> identifies itself as cgRDI and it's a custom SBUS board that drives the
> 640x480 LCD.
>
>  From what I've been able to dig up this driver was packaged as "RDIlcd"
> by RDI but I can't find it, of course.  Anyone happen to have this
> archived somewhere?  Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>

I have IPC, IPX, and LX based BriteLites. I believe that I have the SunOS
driver files, I just need to find them.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Mon May 25 22:39:01 2015
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 20:39:01 -0700
Subject: Framebuffer driver for RDI BriteLite IPX?
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9HOpzX3bdm=YnLLK61eUwNjX13aGNk9XNfaEsZgNRCxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9HOpzX3bdm=YnLLK61eUwNjX13aGNk9XNfaEsZgNRCxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5563EAD5.40207@gmail.com>

On 5/25/15 4:53 PM, Michael Thompson wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 19:16:53 -0700
>> From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Framebuffer driver for RDI BriteLite IPX?
>>
>> Hi all --
>>
>> Sent this query to the Rescue list last week, no bites.  Any Sun
>> fanatics here have any ideas?  (Linux/OpenBSD appear to support it, but
>> I'd rather keep the OS vintage-appropriate.  For some reason...)
>>
>> Got myself an RDI BriteLite IPX; a "laptop" (a generous description)
>> based around a stock SPARCStation IPX motherboard with a very large
>> laptop-style enclosure around it, a 640x480 active-matrix LCD (very
>> pretty) and a gigantic lead-acid battery. It has a handle, so it's
>> portable!
>>
>> Anyway -- I have it up and running and I have SunOS 4.1.4 installed on a
>> fresh hard disk (the original drive was long gone when I got it).
>> Unfortunately, the LCD framebuffer is unrecognized by SunOS; it
>> identifies itself as cgRDI and it's a custom SBUS board that drives the
>> 640x480 LCD.
>>
>>   From what I've been able to dig up this driver was packaged as "RDIlcd"
>> by RDI but I can't find it, of course.  Anyone happen to have this
>> archived somewhere?  Any other ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Josh
>>
> I have IPC, IPX, and LX based BriteLites. I believe that I have the SunOS
> driver files, I just need to find them.
>
Awesome, thanks!  Let me know what you find...

- Josh

From tosteve at yahoo.com  Tue May 26 02:42:23 2015
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 00:42:23 -0700
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
Message-ID: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>

Just acquired a NeXT 68040 cube computer. It's way cool, but the responsiveness is unimpressive - I'd call it pokey. 

All 16 RAM slots are full for 16MB, but sixteen 4MB RAM sticks may help the speed. 

It has an internal HD, as well as the magneto-optical drive. 

One things it's missing is the monitor stand - does anyone have a spare stand for a NeXT N4000A monochrome monitor? 

Thanks-
Steve. 




From norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de  Mon May 25 13:29:33 2015
From: norbert_kehrer at yahoo.de (Norbert Kehrer)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 20:29:33 +0200
Subject: IBM 5110 Emulator in JavaScript
Message-ID: <55636A0D.7080201@yahoo.de>

I ported Christian Corti's great IBM 5110 emulator to JavaScript, so you
can work with an emulated IBM 5110 directly in your (HTML5-capable) web
browser.

There are still some bugs in it, disk and tape support are still
missing, and I could not test it with a non-German keyboard layout. I
nonetheless wanted to share the WIP version to give you a first impression.

You can try it out and write some small BASIC or APL programs at
http://members.aon.at/nkehrer

Greetings

Norbert

From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Mon May 25 19:07:04 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 20:07:04 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>

Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474
and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems. The ones in
slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed the problem with the JMP
instruction. We did some more testing with the toggle-in programs and found
that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of
the toggle-in tests pass, so the processor is substantially functional.

Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced the
G221 in slot D10 to fix that.

We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics were
sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it free and
working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could not receive
anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester. The spare is also
broken, so we need to fix both.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May 25 21:02:31 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 22:02:31 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=UurgNFYBdmaoGc2ntAxaBuhj1qu16dfZeb9eQYxiYDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson
<michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474
> and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems.

I have found from debugging a PDP-8/i and multiple PDP-8/L systems
that 80% of my failed ICs are SN7474 and SN7440 parts, and most of the
remaining 20% are SN7400.  I think I've replaced 0-2 parts that
weren't one of those three.

Do you have any writeups on Warren's FLIP-CHIP tester?  I made a
simple rig with a 1990s-era Ming IC tester and a 16-pin clip-lead
harness that can test each chip on a simple (M113, M117...) FLIP-CHIP,
but it can't test complex boards like the M220 or M706/M707.
Fortunately, most of the failures I've run into are a small handful of
TTL on the simple single-height boards, which this rig can catch.
I've been thinking about a smarter rig but haven't tried to build one.

-ethan

From linimon at lonesome.com  Tue May 26 07:23:54 2015
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 07:23:54 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150526122354.GB26044@lonesome.com>

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 08:07:04PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote:
> so the processor is substantially functional.

This is substantially cool.

> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics were
> sticky from not being used for 30 years

This is substantially crazy :-)

IIRC the mechanics were kind of sticky when new.

The whole "changing flip-flops" thing really took me back.  I learned
to do that in high school on our Control Data G-15.  The multiply
instruction was the first to go :-)

I kept it running for some time using that method.  (of course we did
not have a budget to order spares)

mcl

From tmfdmike at gmail.com  Tue May 26 07:48:35 2015
From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 00:48:35 +1200
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPhLQbOxGfFBPO566tL=XvU+SuM+43sHBqWdzisuTp5wRxLJ2g@mail.gmail.com>

"The M706 receiver failed in the board tester"

Do tell more about this mythical and very useful sounding board tester?

I'm looking at my racks and racks of logic, mostly M-series - 12, 16,
18, & 36 bit - and contemplating the debuggering with some dread...

Mike

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Michael Thompson
<michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474
> and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems. The ones in
> slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed the problem with the JMP
> instruction. We did some more testing with the toggle-in programs and found
> that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of
> the toggle-in tests pass, so the processor is substantially functional.
>
> Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced the
> G221 in slot D10 to fix that.
>
> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics were
> sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it free and
> working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could not receive
> anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester. The spare is also
> broken, so we need to fix both.



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

From sales at elecplus.com  Tue May 26 08:27:26 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 08:27:26 -0500
Subject: Convergent Mighty 2 CPU board
Message-ID: <00ed01d097b7$b50f9110$1f2eb330$@com>

PN 60-00694, date code 8908.

Does this interest anyone?

About 16 inches by 22 inches, looks to be in good shape.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From jws at jwsss.com  Tue May 26 09:17:37 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 07:17:37 -0700
Subject: IBM 5110 Emulator in JavaScript
In-Reply-To: <55636A0D.7080201@yahoo.de>
References: <55636A0D.7080201@yahoo.de>
Message-ID: <55648081.3030501@jwsss.com>



On 5/25/2015 11:29 AM, Norbert Kehrer wrote:
> I ported Christian Corti's great IBM 5110 emulator to JavaScript, so you
> can work with an emulated IBM 5110 directly in your (HTML5-capable) web
> browser.
>
> There are still some bugs in it, disk and tape support are still
> missing, and I could not test it with a non-German keyboard layout. I
> nonetheless wanted to share the WIP version to give you a first impression.
>
> You can try it out and write some small BASIC or APL programs at
> http://members.aon.at/nkehrer
>
> Greetings
>
> Norbert
>
>
Very nice.  I would like to suggest if it isn't too much trouble that 
you see about a soft keyboard.  I tried using it in a mode I use all the 
time.  I have a number of virtual desktops that I connect to and use via 
RDP.  I am using a mac for the system with the screen (has a retina 
display).

Problem is the keyboard is for the mac, so the keyboard mappings is 
useless.  I know this is an oddball situation, but is probably one worth 
thinking about.

The approach I would prefer would be similar to what X3270 does, to 
launch the soft keys when needed.

It worked fine, entered a basic program and it proceeded to take off.  I 
just didn't have any way to break the execution.

Excellent work.

thanks
Jim

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue May 26 09:15:43 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 15:15:43 +0100
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=UurgNFYBdmaoGc2ntAxaBuhj1qu16dfZeb9eQYxiYDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=UurgNFYBdmaoGc2ntAxaBuhj1qu16dfZeb9eQYxiYDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5564800F.1070705@dunnington.plus.com>

On 26/05/2015 03:02, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson
> <michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them

> Do you have any writeups on Warren's FLIP-CHIP tester?

I'd be very interested too, especially since I'm about to try to 
resurrect a PDP-8/L and then possibly another PDP-12.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 26 09:33:12 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:33:12 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <5564800F.1070705@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=UurgNFYBdmaoGc2ntAxaBuhj1qu16dfZeb9eQYxiYDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5564800F.1070705@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddrRH2Rf=76x-EEdimTp0j3KjPr-koSSvwyS6rPqnBiaQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think many people would be interested. With an appropriate adapter,
his device could test modules from other manufacturers as well.

--
Will

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Pete Turnbull
<pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
> On 26/05/2015 03:02, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson
>> <michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them
>
>
>> Do you have any writeups on Warren's FLIP-CHIP tester?
>
>
> I'd be very interested too, especially since I'm about to try to resurrect a
> PDP-8/L and then possibly another PDP-12.
>
> --
> Pete
>
> Pete Turnbull

From sales at elecplus.com  Tue May 26 10:37:03 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:37:03 -0500
Subject: Convergent board is claimed
Message-ID: <021d01d097c9$d059a160$710ce420$@com>

Thanks for the fast responses J

 

I will let the list know if more interesting stuff pops up.

 

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-792-3400 phone

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Tue May 26 13:10:45 2015
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:10:45 -0700
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAPhLQbOxGfFBPO566tL=XvU+SuM+43sHBqWdzisuTp5wRxLJ2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPhLQbOxGfFBPO566tL=XvU+SuM+43sHBqWdzisuTp5wRxLJ2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00CFD69361AB41F9A9E959A262616992@Vincew7>

From: Mike Ross: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 5:48 AM
> Do tell more about this mythical and very useful sounding board tester?

Warren's tester is similar in basic capability to the one that Henk and 
I did some time ago, with some additional circuitry that's useful for 
"load testing" -- telling the difference between an M6xx and an M1xx 
card, etc.

Basically, ours had some I/O registers that you could set to control 
I/O direction, and some latching transceivers to drive test vectors 
to the module and read back results from the module.  This was 
done on a platform driven through a serial port talking to a 6802
microprocessor.

Warren's design, as mentioned by Michael, uses a set of SPI ports, 
talking to 23S17 chips, which allow you to configure I/O direction, 
set the test vector, and receive the result.

In addition, he's set up some LEDs and various loads and pull-ups, 
which can be configured as needed to more accurately load the 
module.

This all works quite well for "slow" testing of combinatorial logic.
It's more cumbersome to come up with test vectors for sequential 
logic, though it can (usually) be done.

Level converters can be added for B/R/S series modules, though the
design of those while preserving the ability to set the I/O direction 
is a bit of a pain (in terms of both cost and component count).

I think for more general testing (Gxxx?), it may be necessary to have 
proper "pin drivers", somewhat like those used in PROM programmers.

For more dynamic testing, some me kind of local processing is 
probably needed to judge the dynamic properties of a response, 
and it may not be good enough to have to serialize and un-serialize 
the data.

A shortage of gumption and relevant skills has kept me from being 
helpful for a while now...

> I'm looking at my racks and racks of logic, mostly M-series - 12, 16,
> 18, & 36 bit - and contemplating the debuggering with some dread...

Mine are all 12 bit, but me too.

    Vince 

From dave at willomail.co.uk  Tue May 26 15:33:13 2015
From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 21:33:13 +0100
Subject: RDI PowerLite 110 and OpenStep - watchdog-reset
In-Reply-To: <0CF984CF-7F5D-47E9-A4E7-1A47FCD323FD@gmail.com>
References: <0CF984CF-7F5D-47E9-A4E7-1A47FCD323FD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5564D889.1040007@willomail.co.uk>

On 26/05/2015 00:15, Ian Finder wrote:
> So I recently made a very poor trade for an RDI PowerLite 110 under the assumption that it could run NeXTstep or OpenStep, as allegedly RDI supplied the PowerLite with this OS in some configurations.
>
> The PowerLite is essentially an SS5 in a chunky, ugly laptop.
>
> When I boot the OpenStep and NeXTstep installers however, at the second stage loader I get a "watchdog-reset" message from OBP.
>
> Ultimately it's the same issue as discussed here:
> http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3153&sid=b8cb75adb7245747301f9e82beef570a
>
> Any hope in getting this to run? Any ideas out there?
>
> Or am I stuck with a fat ugly wannabe SparcBook 3? (I have a few of the 3GX/3TX family which seem like far nicer machines, the only reason I wanted this RDI P.O.S. Is the weitek framebuffer in the SparcBooks isn't supported by OS/NS, but the CG6 in the RDI supposedly is. What a garbage machine RDI produced with this one...
>

Ian,

I had the same problem with a PowerLite 110. Couldn't get either NS or 
OS to boot. I'm not 100% certain but I've been led to believe the option 
RDI provided was the OpenStep framework on top of Solaris.

I actually quite like the machines though :)

Cheers,
Dave


From chrise at pobox.com  Tue May 26 16:07:47 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 16:07:47 -0500
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <BDFF4400-69E7-4A7C-9DC1-CD7733B5CFBB@nf6x.net>
References: <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>
 <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C44C9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <BDFF4400-69E7-4A7C-9DC1-CD7733B5CFBB@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <20150526210747.GK5160@n0jcf.net>

If you do end up building a custom solution, I have a feature request :-)

It would nice if the device was also a frame grabber that could, under
command, snap one or more frames of the legacy video and export it over
USB perhaps.

This would allow us to document operation of legacy software with high
quality frame grabs since persumably you'd have access to the image
in a relatively good quality domain before you turned it into DVI/HDMI
or whatever.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist N?JCF


From nf6x at nf6x.net  Tue May 26 17:30:36 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 15:30:36 -0700
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <20150526210747.GK5160@n0jcf.net>
References: <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <56706f020fb0e0501d05ed4f775e5e7c@alanlee.org>
 <0D467B90-A834-454F-9E84-FFFC834C8565@nf6x.net>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C44C9@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <BDFF4400-69E7-4A7C-9DC1-CD7733B5CFBB@nf6x.net>
 <20150526210747.GK5160@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <3BD66A37-34ED-4797-9AE0-7DD012A6DCFB@nf6x.net>


> On May 26, 2015, at 14:07 , Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> If you do end up building a custom solution, I have a feature request :-)
> 
> It would nice if the device was also a frame grabber that could, under
> command, snap one or more frames of the legacy video and export it over
> USB perhaps.

That was already on my possible-feature list! ;) If I do end up using a Zynq FPGA, then hanging things like Ethernet and/or USB OTG would be cheap to add. Those wouldn't be my first priorities to implement in firmware, but I should at least include stuff options for the connectors and PHYs on the PCB.

I'm not sure yet whether I'd start with a dev board or go straight to a custom board. The Zybo board is cheap and has the cheaper Zynq chip that I'd like to target, but it lacks good physical connections for a couple of relatively high-speed DACs, and it only supports 720p HDMI output because it lacks a dedicated HDMI PHY. I could get 1080p and an FMC connector out of the much more expensive Zed Board, but it uses a larger Zynq chip that would be prohibitively expensive for this project, and if I had to build a board with an FMC connector for my analog front end then I'd already be making a board that's too advanced for me to solder up at home, so I might as well thrown down the FPGA, too, rather than spending $500 on a not-quite-right dev board. Sigh...


> This would allow us to document operation of legacy software with high
> quality frame grabs since persumably you'd have access to the image
> in a relatively good quality domain before you turned it into DVI/HDMI
> or whatever.

Agreed! Grabbing some live video might also be an option, but I think that would be a smaller incremental value add than getting high quality single frame grabs.

BTW, every good project deserves a good project name. I'm tentatively calling this one "Crazy Cat Lady". It has a nice ring to it.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Tue May 26 21:25:03 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 21:25:03 -0500
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
Message-ID: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>


... the style of AC power connector having three 1/8" diameter pins in 
parallel on 5/16" spacing, with the center pin offset by 1/16" from the 
outer two, and the rubber molding around the pins having rounded ends.

Is there an official/common name for such a connector so that I can try and 
lay my hands on some more power cables? Fluke used it too (and Moseley, but 
I believe they were just HP by another name anyway). I've also seen the 
same pin size/layout on desktop calculators, albeit with more squarish ends 
to the rubber molding (in fact the single cable in my possession is a 
calculator one, which I modified to fit the rounded-end profile)

(while I'm at it, is there a classiccmp-type list equivalent for old test 
gear?)

cheers

Jules



From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue May 26 21:27:39 2015
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 22:27:39 -0400
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html

Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!

Kyle

From wulfman at wulfman.com  Tue May 26 21:38:00 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 19:38:00 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55652E08.7040506@wulfman.com>

unless your a purest, convert to the standard modern AC cords
I have converted everything i own to them.


On 5/26/2015 7:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
>
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html
>
> Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!
>
> Kyle
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.


From bpettitx at comcast.net  Tue May 26 21:54:02 2015
From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 19:54:02 -0700
Subject: Hawk Disk Drive
Message-ID: <D31C41065CA54C4EBFA193F93151DDCF@RosemarysPC>

Jim wrote:

From: jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com>
Subject: GE disk drives on ebay, one badged Datacraft

GE-14-Hawk-Drive-23991-47d266933G3


http://www.ebay.com/itm/261895292646

One of these systems really appears to be a CDC drive, but the other one 
is badged Datacraft 5208, and doesn't look familiar.

Any idea on what it is?  Looks like something that would fit a 
collection of storage devices as a unique item, given that it is 14" 
removable.

This page implies it is a CDC drive, but I've not seen one with the 
front this one has.

http://www.mfarris.com/pack/datacraft.html

thanks
Jim

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldn't view the item on eBay - got the message that it was removed.  However the page you sent for Datacraft 4441 shows it to be a CDC Hawk drive.  The 9425 was first made by NCR.  It moved from California to Oklahoma when CPI and MPI were formed.

The early version 9425 Cartridge Disk Drive was not a good product.  It was re-engineered into the 9427H, code named Hawk.  Both were 5MB fixed, 5MB removeable cartridge.  Available as a rack mount or stand alone cabinet.  There were 4 different types of plug in interfaces available.  As near as I can remember, there were around 350 different configurations in production.  Most were variations on the color(s) of the skins.  But there were also options for sector count, power supplies, front name plate, terminators, cables, etc.

Without the original configuration data, it is hard to look at a Hawk and tell what was in it and who was the OEM customer.  Customer base was like a who's who of 1970s - minicomputers to early microcomputers.  There were even a few S-100 controllers for it

There was a 2 disk fixed only version called the Falcon.

Really brings back the memories.

Billy

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 26 21:55:18 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 19:55:18 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <55652E08.7040506@wulfman.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55652E08.7040506@wulfman.com>
Message-ID: <55653216.6020603@sydex.com>

On 05/26/2015 07:38 PM, wulfman wrote:
> unless your a purest, convert to the standard modern AC cords
> I have converted everything i own to them.

Yup, same here.  Avoids any ambiguity about which prong is neutral.

Four-Phase Systems used to use the 163 on its gear as well--circa the 
IV/90 machines.  During the mid-to-late 70s you could find surplused 
monitors with the 163 AC receptacle..

--Chuck






From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Tue May 26 22:08:48 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 22:08:48 -0500
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55653540.3020705@gmail.com>

On 05/26/2015 09:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
>
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html

Thanks - that's the critter!

My modified calculator cable is probably the "Japanese calculator" type, 
although it seems to work OK with 163-type sockets despite the mention of 
the pin diameter of the 163 being a little larger (presumably the 
receptacles within the plug are pressing up against the pins of the 163 
type socket, but not actually fitting over them).

I would much rather have the right type, obviously!

> Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!

Indeed :-)

Jules


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue May 26 22:28:06 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 20:28:06 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-26, at 7:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
> 
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html
> 
> Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!

Thanks for the mention. Note the 163 name is my 'best estimate' for the type name.

Sphere appears to have some currently in stock, see bottom of page:
	http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/wallwarts.html

Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is slightly larger.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue May 26 22:48:51 2015
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 20:48:51 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKti7qffmnKR9SV4XU+WaXtEMxn7nQMB+JqdYYpf3+49A@mail.gmail.com>

On May 26, 2015 8:28 PM, "Brent Hilpert" <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> On 2015-May-26, at 7:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> > Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
> >
> > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html
> >
> > Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!
>
> Thanks for the mention. Note the 163 name is my 'best estimate' for the
type name.
>
> Sphere appears to have some currently in stock, see bottom of page:
>         http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/wallwarts.html

Also:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171763233717

From jws at jwsss.com  Tue May 26 22:58:43 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 20:58:43 -0700
Subject: Hawk Disk Drive
In-Reply-To: <D31C41065CA54C4EBFA193F93151DDCF@RosemarysPC>
References: <D31C41065CA54C4EBFA193F93151DDCF@RosemarysPC>
Message-ID: <556540F3.4090009@jwsss.com>



On 5/26/2015 7:54 PM, Billy Pettit wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>
> From: jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com>
> Subject: GE disk drives on ebay, one badged Datacraft
>
> GE-14-Hawk-Drive-23991-47d266933G3
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261895292646
>
> One of these systems really appears to be a CDC drive, but the other one
> is badged Datacraft 5208, and doesn't look familiar.
>
> Any idea on what it is?  Looks like something that would fit a
> collection of storage devices as a unique item, given that it is 14"
> removable.
>
> This page implies it is a CDC drive, but I've not seen one with the
> front this one has.
>
> http://www.mfarris.com/pack/datacraft.html
>
> thanks
> Jim
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Couldn't view the item on eBay - got the message that it was removed.  However the page you sent for Datacraft 4441 shows it to be a CDC Hawk drive.  The 9425 was first made by NCR.  It moved from California to Oklahoma when CPI and MPI were formed.
>
> The early version 9425 Cartridge Disk Drive was not a good product.  It was re-engineered into the 9427H, code named Hawk.  Both were 5MB fixed, 5MB removeable cartridge.  Available as a rack mount or stand alone cabinet.  There were 4 different types of plug in interfaces available.  As near as I can remember, there were around 350 different configurations in production.  Most were variations on the color(s) of the skins.  But there were also options for sector count, power supplies, front name plate, terminators, cables, etc.
>
> Without the original configuration data, it is hard to look at a Hawk and tell what was in it and who was the OEM customer.  Customer base was like a who's who of 1970s - minicomputers to early microcomputers.  There were even a few S-100 controllers for it
>
> There was a 2 disk fixed only version called the Falcon.
>
> Really brings back the memories.
>
> Billy
>
>
Billy,
many thanks for your reply.

The auction photos have been altered now to just have the hawk.  I 
should have saved off the Datacraft drive photos.

Another lurking list member found the federal contract information for 
these drives:

 From the GE part number on the GE Philly nameplate, I think these came 
from Re-entry Systems.
      There is a government contract number on the nameplate. Google 
found this contract info: 
http://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=249&mtch=17&cat=all&tf=F&q=Pennsylvania+Comm+Dept+Of+General&bc=&rpp=20&pg=1&rid=329759&rlst=331822,331823,331824,329759,327693,331208,332223,327976,327977,327978
  GE Aerospace's headquarters was in King of Prussia. These drives must 
have been part of a system made for the Army. I think these drives are 
destined for the scrapper as I can't imagine they are even worth the 
gasoline to haul them anywhere.

Thanks to Lou for the info.  I'll let him chime in if he wants something 
on the public list.

I sent back to him that I know that printers and tape drives were in 
Valley Forge at the combined operation of Centronix and MPI in 82. I 
went there when MPI was trying to break into the market with the 
Sentinel.  They also made half inch drives there for the broad market.  
I had bought a couple of Sun systems and had very nice specimens of 
that.  Their main market at the time were the vertical reel-reel drives 
for DEC in that category.

I think Minneapolis and Ok City were the main disk operations in the 
fold at the time.  This drive was sold by GE, and that division was in 
King of Prussia by coincidence.

Were you still with CDC at the time?  (If you don't mind telling the 
list).  You were with CDC thru most of its history, and can probably 
correct some things I have here.

thanks
Jim


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 27 00:03:57 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 22:03:57 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>

On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the
> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible
> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is
> slightly larger.

Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or 
"mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here 
looking at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to 
replace it.

Fer heaven's sake, what was wrong with the IEC connector?

--Chuck




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed May 27 00:26:24 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 05:26:24 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>, <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C47A6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here
> looking at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to
> replace it.
> 
> Fer heaven's sake, what was wrong with the IEC connector?

If you mean the one that a mad friend of mine calls the 'figure of 12' (on the grounds that the
2 pin one used on radios, etc, is often called a 'figure of 8') then I believe it _is_ an IEC
connector, in the same standard as the more familiar 'kettle plug'.

The thing that annoys me about this connector is that a rewireable cable socket does not
seem to exist. Just moulded cables, which I dislike on the grounds I can't check that the wires
are properly connected (and not just held on one strand). A rewireable 'figure of 8' does exist,
but the version I have seen doesn't have a proper cable clamp.

-tony

From drlegendre at gmail.com  Wed May 27 00:39:11 2015
From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 00:39:11 -0500
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjrmd6L310E0vxdHnXLiHR1gxv9tDhjF3213WKbutzeibRyqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Once again, there's no legitimate explanation for this sort of nonsense,
outside of proprietary vendor lock-in. And IMO, what we all term the 'IEC'
connector (15A) isn't all that great either - the footprint is excessively
large for the limited voltage range (240VAC tops), but at least it's
properly keyed and widely adopted. We can live with it..

But there's just no excuse for the 'cloverleaf' crap, or any other
latter-day proprietary "standard". Ultimately, it only means that a
pissed-off user buys some knock-off Chinese crap that works, rather than
purchasing an OEM item.

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:03 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
>  Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the
>> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible
>> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is
>> slightly larger.
>>
>
> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here looking
> at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to replace it.
>
> Fer heaven's sake, what was wrong with the IEC connector?
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Wed May 27 01:16:25 2015
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 23:16:25 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <55653216.6020603@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55652E08.7040506@wulfman.com> <55653216.6020603@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8CFC83B9-7C0C-4AC9-8D2C-591340D3A300@nf6x.net>


> On May 26, 2015, at 19:55 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/26/2015 07:38 PM, wulfman wrote:
>> unless your a purest, convert to the standard modern AC cords
>> I have converted everything i own to them.
> 
> Yup, same here.  Avoids any ambiguity about which prong is neutral.

I thought that I remembered encountering line cords with at least two different wirings to those connectors when I saw the subject, and your comment suggests that my memory is correct on that matter.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From useddec at gmail.com  Wed May 27 02:26:58 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 02:26:58 -0500
Subject: Sorry if I haven't back to you...
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPTZEVbeba=ed5HePu8=qj0nN++a+8XmgMbhV7kQX9o_w@mail.gmail.com>

There are several members I was supposed to check on item and I have
dropped the ball on a few. I rely greatly on high school students to do a
lot of things I can't do myself anymore, and they have had proms and plays
the last few weeks and finals this week.

I am going in for another surgery next week and will be able to check email
late in the week. I'll be pretty much out of commission for the summer, but
they'll be able to take care of most shipping.

So, if I dropped the ball on anything, please BUG ME ! I'll reply to emails
ASAP, but please, no phone calls next week.

From Gary at realtimecomp.com  Wed May 27 04:50:01 2015
From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 09:50:01 +0000
Subject: Sorry if I haven't back to you...
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPTZEVbeba=ed5HePu8=qj0nN++a+8XmgMbhV7kQX9o_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuPTZEVbeba=ed5HePu8=qj0nN++a+8XmgMbhV7kQX9o_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <es2mixl1hs97qsf5bjd1au7h.1432720163414@email.android.com>

Paul,
I was looking for spare key caps or a keyboard for a LA-36 Decwriter II.  Thanks for following up.

Best of luck with your surgery (getting there myself!)

Gary


-------- Original message --------
From: Paul Anderson
Date:05/27/2015 3:27 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ,cctech at vax-11.org
Subject: Sorry if I haven't back to you...

There are several members I was supposed to check on item and I have
dropped the ball on a few. I rely greatly on high school students to do a
lot of things I can't do myself anymore, and they have had proms and plays
the last few weeks and finals this week.

I am going in for another surgery next week and will be able to check email
late in the week. I'll be pretty much out of commission for the summer, but
they'll be able to take care of most shipping.

So, if I dropped the ball on anything, please BUG ME ! I'll reply to emails
ASAP, but please, no phone calls next week.




From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 27 08:04:30 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 09:04:30 -0400
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C47A6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C47A6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <A639C92A-F11A-4EC3-8C10-2F77B672633D@comcast.net>


> On May 27, 2015, at 1:26 AM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
>> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here
>> looking at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to
>> replace it.
>> 
>> Fer heaven's sake, what was wrong with the IEC connector?
> 
> If you mean the one that a mad friend of mine calls the 'figure of 12' (on the grounds that the
> 2 pin one used on radios, etc, is often called a 'figure of 8') then I believe it _is_ an IEC
> connector, in the same standard as the more familiar 'kettle plug?.

The ?figure 8? connector is certainly IEC, as is the ?mouseketeer? one ? which adds a ground pin offset from the middle.  The latter seems to be uncommon.  The argument for the figure 8 plug is that it?s substantially smaller and works well when no ground is needed (double insulated equipment) and current is modest.  I have some Dell laptop supplies that use that connector, and it makes sense there.

There are quite a number of IEC connectors.  The familiar 15 amp C13 model is just the most common, but there?s a 20 amp variant (horizontal blades), high temperature versions (with bumps in the inlet that prevent inserting a standard cord) and so on.

	paul



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed May 27 08:10:54 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 08:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 26 May 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
>> Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the 
>> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible 
>> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is slightly 
>> larger.

Belden made a lot of cords for HP and others, and sometimes you can still 
find them NOS in their original packages.

> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or 
> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here 
> looking at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to 
> replace it.
>
> Fer heaven's sake, what was wrong with the IEC connector?

Which specific IEC connector? A lot of people think of the C13 as the only 
IEC connector, but there is a whole family of IEC 60320 (IEC 320) 
connectors. If by "cloverleaf" or "mouseketeer" you are referring to the 
C7 or C5 couplers, those types are part of the IEC 60320 standard. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 (Full disclosure: I have access to 
copies of the official 60320 standards and I spent a good deal of time 
working with some other editors on the material for Wikipedia). Now, if 
you want to talk about really weird connectors, Sony had a number of power 
connectors which can be incredibly hard to find replacements for today...

From radiotest at juno.com  Wed May 27 08:22:49 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 09:22:49 -0400
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150527091937.03f3dc18@juno.com>

At 10:25 PM 5/26/2015, Jules Richardson wrote:

>... is there a classiccmp-type list equivalent for old test gear?

Yahoogroups.com hosts a number of them. I sub lists there for GR, HP, and Tek, as well as the TestEquipTrader list for buying and selling vintage equipment.

Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From radiotest at juno.com  Wed May 27 08:25:35 2015
From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 09:25:35 -0400
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <8CFC83B9-7C0C-4AC9-8D2C-591340D3A300@nf6x.net>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <55652E08.7040506@wulfman.com> <55653216.6020603@sydex.com>
 <8CFC83B9-7C0C-4AC9-8D2C-591340D3A300@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150527092319.03e55e10@juno.com>

At 02:16 AM 5/27/2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:

>I thought that I remembered encountering line cords with at least two different wirings to those connectors when I saw the subject ...


I always ring out any that I get. The HP-compatible ones go in one place for my vintage HP instruments (of which I own more than a few), and the others go in a different location in case I find a need for one.

Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 


From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com  Wed May 27 10:11:24 2015
From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 10:11:24 -0500
Subject: Equip available - Flagstaff Eng. external 8" floppy, Xerox 820-II
 (Wichita, Ks)
Message-ID: <5565DE9C.7010003@microfilm.kscoxmail.com>


  A few weeks ago, I posted a list of equipment for sale, and on that list was an external 8" floppy
drive built (or at least, sold) by Flagstaff Engineering.  I've finally found the interface card, so
now the whole shebang is available.  Card, cable, and drive.

  Also, I have two Xerox 820-II CP/M computers, with keyboards.  I have one dual external 8" floppy
for the 820-II's (not on per).

  I can ship the Flagstaff drive, but I'm not sure how to go about shipping the 820's.  They are
available in Wichita, Ks.

--Shaun
  Microfilm Services, Inc.
   316-269-2203


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Wed May 27 13:10:18 2015
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:10:18 -0500
Subject: asking for pickup help
Message-ID: <000c01d098a8$64a384b0$2dea8e10$@classiccmp.org>

Are there any collectors around Larose, Louisiana that might be able to pick
up something "relatively smallish" and ship? I'd be happy to
compensate/trade. whatever you wish!

 

Best,

 

J


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 27 13:24:53 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:24:53 -0500
Subject: more old stuff
Message-ID: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>

DEC Mate II with butterfly floppies

A set of 8" floppy drives for a Display Writer

A KayPro II and a KayPro II

2 DEC power supplies for mainframes?  PN 874-D

Several 80386? Compaq luggables

Some small OLD HP boxes, will list PN if anyone is interested.

 

I will prob be next week before I can ship these.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 27 13:32:05 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:32:05 -0500
Subject: more old stuff
In-Reply-To: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
References: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
Message-ID: <02e501d098ab$6e8fece0$4bafc6a0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics
Plus
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 1:25 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: more old stuff

DEC Mate II with butterfly floppies  __SOLD

A set of 8" floppy drives for a Display Writer

A KayPro II and a KayPro II

2 DEC power supplies for mainframes?  PN 874-D  __SOLD

Several 80386? Compaq luggables

Some small OLD HP boxes, will list PN if anyone is interested.

 

I will prob be next week before I can ship these.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 




-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4311/9879 - Release Date: 05/27/15


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed May 27 13:54:15 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:54:15 -0500
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>

On 05/27/2015 12:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
>> Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the
>> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible
>> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is
>> slightly larger.
>
> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here looking
> at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to replace it.

Do you mean IEC 60320 type C5/6, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320#Appliance_couplers

?? That's the connector I was assuming you and wulfman were talking about 
using as a replacement for the old 163 power connectors - not the common 
"PC type" connector, because that's much larger and would mean cutting into 
the original equipment panels so that it would fit.

I'm thinking it should be possible to drill the rivets holding the original 
163 sockets, then make up mounting plates to hold an IEC C6-style socket 
and rivet/bolt those in place. That's assuming that I don't lay my hands on 
some original 163-type cables!

cheers

Jules


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed May 27 13:54:52 2015
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 11:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: more old stuff
In-Reply-To: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
References: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505271154330.22146@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 27 May 2015, Electronics Plus wrote:

> A KayPro II and a KayPro II
>
...so two IIs? :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed May 27 13:58:26 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 11:58:26 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
Message-ID: <D18B60D3.37493%marc.verdiell@gmail.com>

I get mine from this vendor on eBay. Very reasonably priced and the one I
got were indeed like new;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261713737185?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageNam
e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
- Marc

>On 05/26/2015 09:27 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
>>Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
>>
>>http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html



From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 27 14:02:47 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:02:47 -0500
Subject: more old stuff
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505271154330.22146@deltasoft.com>
References: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505271154330.22146@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <02f801d098af$b8792430$296b6c90$@com>

A Kaypro II and a KayPro 2.  Both luggables, not sure what the difference
is.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 1:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: more old stuff

On Wed, 27 May 2015, Electronics Plus wrote:

> A KayPro II and a KayPro II
>
...so two IIs? :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database
for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4311/9879 - Release Date: 05/27/15


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed May 27 14:02:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:02:12 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>  Now, if you want to talk about really weird connectors, Sony had a number of power
> connectors which can be incredibly hard to find replacements for today...

In the 1960s/1970s just about every major consumer electronics company seemed to have their
own mains connectors. An old Maplin catalogue shows a page of moulded cables (strange connector
to bare wires to fit to a mains plug) for all sorts of manufacturers, but I have seen many more than that,
Incidentally, back then the common 'figure of 8' one was listed as 'Telefunken'. I have used the odd 
Philips one -- 2 flat pins at 90 degrees to each other with a sort of figure-of-8 moulding round it, but
with the sections octagonal not circular. My N1500 VCRs use it. But the connector on another (slightly
older) Philips tape recorder is different to anything else I've seen (rectangular moulding with 2 round pins).

Just try finding some of those today.

There was another European connector which had 2 flat pins and a metal shroud round it, the cable
socket had flat springs on the sides to make contact with the shround as the earth contact. Very common
on electronic instruments over here in the 1960s, just try finding one now.

Even standard connectors (some still in production) like the Bulgin 1.5A and 5A ranges and the 
XLR-like LNE connector are not that easy to get.

-tony

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Wed May 27 14:06:24 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 12:06:24 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors
Message-ID: <D18B62DF.374A0%marc.verdiell@gmail.com>

Sorry use this link instead. I bought them, they are great and new indeed:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261713737185

>From: Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com>
>Yes, there does appear to be a name for them: the 163 connector.
>http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html
>Big thanks to our own Brent Hilpert for the great reference!
>Kyle




From pete at pski.net  Wed May 27 14:22:15 2015
From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:22:15 -0400
Subject: more old stuff
In-Reply-To: <02f801d098af$b8792430$296b6c90$@com>
References: <02e001d098aa$6d55dbb0$48019310$@com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.03.1505271154330.22146@deltasoft.com>
 <02f801d098af$b8792430$296b6c90$@com>
Message-ID: <33FAE49C-D768-42CF-BFD5-CD127A1455BD@pski.net>

Ah, yes the Kaypro numbering scheme.  The II came before the 2 but both came before the 1.

:)


> On May 27, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Electronics Plus <sales at elecplus.com> wrote:
> 
> A Kaypro II and a KayPro 2.  Both luggables, not sure what the difference
> is.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 1:55 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: more old stuff
> 
> On Wed, 27 May 2015, Electronics Plus wrote:
> 
>> A KayPro II and a KayPro II
>> 
> ...so two IIs? :)
> 
> g.
> 
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database
> for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4311/9879 - Release Date: 05/27/15
> 


From wulfman at wulfman.com  Wed May 27 14:31:01 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 12:31:01 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55661B75.4020208@wulfman.com>


i meant  C13 C14     so many around and the female parts have EMI
protection in  a lot of them

On 5/27/2015 11:54 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/27/2015 12:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>
>>> Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the
>>> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible
>>> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is
>>> slightly larger.
>>
>> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
>> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here
>> looking
>> at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to replace
>> it.
>
> Do you mean IEC 60320 type C5/6, here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320#Appliance_couplers
>
> ?? That's the connector I was assuming you and wulfman were talking
> about using as a replacement for the old 163 power connectors - not
> the common "PC type" connector, because that's much larger and would
> mean cutting into the original equipment panels so that it would fit.
>
> I'm thinking it should be possible to drill the rivets holding the
> original 163 sockets, then make up mounting plates to hold an IEC
> C6-style socket and rivet/bolt those in place. That's assuming that I
> don't lay my hands on some original 163-type cables!
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
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From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 27 14:45:28 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 12:45:28 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-27, at 11:54 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/27/2015 12:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 05/26/2015 08:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> 
>>> Like wulfman and chuck and as described on my page, I replace the
>>> chassis inlet whenever I can, although occasionally it's not possible
>>> due to proximity of other chassis elements as the IEC inlet is
>>> slightly larger.
>> 
>> Right now, I'm cursing the guy who thought that the "cloverleaf" or
>> "mouseketeer" power receptacle was a good idea.  I'm sitting here looking
>> at an HP ScanJet wondering if it would be worth the effort to replace it.
> 
> Do you mean IEC 60320 type C5/6, here:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320#Appliance_couplers
> 
> ?? That's the connector I was assuming you and wulfman were talking about using as a replacement for the old 163 power connectors - not the common "PC type" connector, because that's much larger and would mean cutting into the original equipment panels so that it would fit.
> 
> I'm thinking it should be possible to drill the rivets holding the original 163 sockets, then make up mounting plates to hold an IEC C6-style socket and rivet/bolt those in place. That's assuming that I don't lay my hands on some original 163-type cables!

For my part, no, I've always replaced them (where doable) with the common IEC C14 chassis inlets. See the bottom of my web page. Yes it does require some cutting of the original, so it depends on whether one wants to do that, and one's will and skill with hand files.

I've never tried the C6 type as I rarely see them anyways. Note the C5/C6 has a considerably lower current rating than the C13/C14, which is presumably why it was introduced as an additional standard.

I keep around a box of C14s scavenged from discarded equipment for the purpose, but I also replace fixed lines cords with C14s whenever I can, because I hate moving and storing equipment with dangling power cords.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed May 27 14:58:15 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:58:15 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>, <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C48DD@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> For my part, no, I've always replaced them (where doable) with the common IEC C14 chassis inlets. See the bottom 
> of my web page. Yes it does require some cutting of the original, so it depends on whether one wants to do that, 
> and one's will and skill with hand files.

I've done that a few times. I did keep my HP9100 and its plotter original, though :-)

> I keep around a box of C14s scavenged from discarded equipment for the purpose, but I also replace fixed lines 
> cords with C14s whenever I can, because I hate moving and storing equipment with dangling power cords.

I assume new C14s are not hard to get over there. Over here every electronic component supplier -- even 
Maplin -- stock them. 

In a number of cases I have cut the mains lead on an instrument to about 4" long and fitted the cable mounting
C14 plug (jf that's the right term). I also hate cables dangling from my shelves (although Tigger likes them) 
and coiling them up on top of plastic cases is a bad idea (the plasticiser in the PVC reacts with common 
case plastics and leaves nasty marks or worse. That is why new stuff often has the cables packed in plastic
bags -- as you know the manufacturers of such things save every last penny and would not include a bag if
there was no reason for it.

-tony



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 27 15:06:41 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:06:41 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com> <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <556623D1.2070305@sydex.com>

On 05/27/2015 12:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> For my part, no, I've always replaced them (where doable) with the
> common IEC C14 chassis inlets. See the bottom of my web page. Yes it
> does require some cutting of the original, so it depends on whether
> one wants to do that, and one's will and skill with hand files.

I use a plain old sheet metal hand nibbler.  Much cleaner and doesn't 
require dressing of the edges.   One usually can find them for USD$10 or 
less--all seem to come from Taiwan.  I've got one with the anvil 
modified to allow for notching of "dragon's teeth" when joining two bits 
of sheet metal.

> I've never tried the C6 type as I rarely see them anyways. Note the
> C5/C6 has a considerably lower current rating than the C13/C14, which
> is presumably why it was introduced as an additional standard.
>
> I keep around a box of C14s scavenged from discarded equipment for
> the purpose, but I also replace fixed lines cords with C14s whenever
> I can, because I hate moving and storing equipment with dangling
> power cords.

My HP Scanner uses a C5/C6 connection, but a much smaller thin client 
uses the C7/C8--although later versions of that piece of equipment use 
C13/C14--I suppose that the maker (Neoware) received too much flack on 
their choice of receptacle.

The 2.5A rating on the C5...C8 connectors had me wondering if the UK 
versions have fused mains plugs--and if it's still customary to use the 
ubiquitous 13A fuses in those...

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 27 15:10:33 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:10:33 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>

For what it's worth, if you're looking for a C7-ended line cord and 
can't find one, most electric shaver cords will work in a pinch--you may 
have to use a utility knife to deepen the "notch" on the plug, but it 
does work just fine--and most of those are curled cords...

--Chuck

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed May 27 15:10:08 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 20:10:08 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556623D1.2070305@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com> <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
 <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>, <556623D1.2070305@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C48F6@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> The 2.5A rating on the C5...C8 connectors had me wondering if the UK
> versions have fused mains plugs--and if it's still customary to use the
> ubiquitous 13A fuses in those...

In general these connectors come as part of a fully moulded mains lead with
a BS1363 ('13A') plug on the other end. And every one I have used has had a 3A
fuse fitted to the plug.

I still don't know why loose BS1363 mains plugs always seem to come with 13A 
fuses fitted, given that (a) the 3A fuse is more useful and (b) at least one manufactuer
lists the plugs fitted with either fuse (under different part numbers) in their catalogue. 
I can't be the only person to have a jam jar full of brand new 13A cartridge fuses removed
from plugs I am fitting...

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed May 27 15:20:32 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 20:20:32 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> For what it's worth, if you're looking for a C7-ended line cord and
> can't find one, most electric shaver cords will work in a pinch--you may
> have to use a utility knife to deepen the "notch" on the plug, but it
> does work just fine--and most of those are curled cords...

Shaver cords are odd in the UK. Certainly at one time (and I suspect it is still
the case, but I haven't checked) the only socket outlet that could be installed in
a bathroom ('room containing a fixed bath or shower') was a transformer-isolated
shaver socket. These often have both 110V and 220V outlets, either of which would take
either the common US 2 pin mains plug or a 2 pin round-pin plug. The isolating 
transformer is typically rated at 20VA, FWIW [1]

Anyway, electric shavers tend to have a 2 pin round-pin plug on them to fit said
device. You can easily get 'shaver adaptors' which take said plug and go into
a normal UK BS1363 socket so you can shave in other rooms. Oh yes, and most
of the time the cable is tinsel wire (thin copper strands round a string core, like
old telephone handset cables) so re-wiring to a different plug is a pain.

But almost all shavers sold over here now run off internal rechargeable batteries. Why
I do not know. It's not as if the cable is a major problem (unlike having a battery that is
flat when you need it and which has a limited life anyway). Amazingly the chargers that
come with these shavers have the 2 round pins to fit a shaver socket. Quite why you 
need to be able to charge it in a bathroom is beyond me, but...

[1] At one point one of the pound shops (==dollar stores) over here had some 
shaver sockets for sale. Obviously bankrupt stock or something like that. Put it 
this way, a nice little 20VA isolating transformer with a secondary tapped at 110V
and 220V has a lot of uses. And generally costs more than a pound...

-tony

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 27 15:26:36 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:26:36 -0500
Subject: The small HP stuff
Message-ID: <034801d098bb$6e0c4ab0$4a24e010$@com>

9121

9123

9114

98700

98710

 

I can tell you the first 3 all used to work, but I do not have keyboards and
monitors here to test now.

I know nothing about the last 2, except they say MAD BUS on the back.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed May 27 15:25:02 2015
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 21:25:02 +0100
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556623D1.2070305@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com> <F811E935-DED8-45EE-902D-6EF39CC250FB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <556623D1.2070305@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5566281E.6040002@dunnington.plus.com>

On 27/05/2015 21:06, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> The 2.5A rating on the C5...C8 connectors had me wondering if the UK
> versions have fused mains plugs--and if it's still customary to use the
> ubiquitous 13A fuses in those...

Nope, normally 3A.  3A, 5A and 13A are the most common sizes, with plugs 
commonly available off the shelf with 3A fitted, though I keep 1A, 2A, 
7A and 10A as well.

BTW, those C5/C6 connectors are almost universal on HP, Sony, and 
Toshiba laptops over here.  PITA.  If you ever need to buy a spare, you 
can bet it'll cost twice as much as the same cable with a C13 on it. 
C13 connector cables are commonly fitted with 5A fused plugs for PCs 
(and used to be for CRTs) or 3A for LCDs etc.

-- 
Pete

Pete Turnbull

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 27 16:18:50 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:18:50 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>

I did a little checking today--I compared a male 163-type receptacle 
with a C14 receptacle.  The mounting ear holes appear to have the same 
spacing; the C14 is about 3/4" thick, where the 163 (metal shell) is 
about 1/2" thickness, so you'd need to enlarge the mounting holes about 
1/8"  on the top and bottom.  The 163 is a bit wider, but not enough to 
matter--you'll have to square off the hole corners, as the shell of a 
163 is oval, not rectangular.

All in all, if done carefully, there's no indication that anyone could 
tell if a modification had been made.

Since a lot of my stuff runs from C13-equipped power strips, is it 
possible to get a ready-made line cord with a C14 on one end and a C5 or 
C7 on the other?

--Chuck


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 27 16:38:04 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:38:04 -0700
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
Message-ID: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>

Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:

	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg

Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.

Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.

Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed May 27 16:39:01 2015
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 17:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <201505272139.RAA27165@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Certainly at one time (and I suspect it is still the case, but I
> haven't checked) the only socket outlet that could be installed in a
> bathroom ('room containing a fixed bath or shower') was a
> transformer-isolated shaver socket.

Those existed west of the Pond too, back in the day.  They might even
still be code, for all I know, but I can't recall the last time I
actually saw one; such sockets seem to be all GFI these days.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 27 16:50:41 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 14:50:41 -0700
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com> <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0B7AB8F5-BFDA-4D6C-9627-F2F1F367AF03@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-27, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I did a little checking today--I compared a male 163-type receptacle with a C14 receptacle.  The mounting ear holes appear to have the same spacing; the C14 is about 3/4" thick, where the 163 (metal shell) is about 1/2" thickness, so you'd need to enlarge the mounting holes about 1/8"  on the top and bottom.  The 163 is a bit wider, but not enough to matter--you'll have to square off the hole corners, as the shell of a 163 is oval, not rectangular.

Oh, unfortunately the screw holes are not quite the same spacing, but it's possible to file them a fraction to the side on the chassis and still have good coverage and seating of the nut.

See pic at bottom of page:  http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html


> All in all, if done carefully, there's no indication that anyone could tell if a modification had been made.

Yup, I should take pics of the progressive stages when I do one sometime.


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Wed May 27 17:51:29 2015
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 23:51:29 +0100
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <55664A71.4070800@btinternet.com>

If you move the camera to the right there may be a part number on the 
label or the box it came in


On 27/05/2015 22:38, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
>
> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
>
> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.
>
> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
>
> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.
>


From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed May 27 18:09:58 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 01:09:58 +0200
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <55664EC6.1070202@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-27 23:38, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
>
> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
>
> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.

It's been a while since I saw one, but they look like RC25 cartridges. 
Miserable drive...

> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
>
> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.

RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I think you only 
had a Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed May 27 18:19:35 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:19:35 -0400
Subject: more old stuff decmates
Message-ID: <14771.19b94a5c.4297ab07@aol.com>

Cindy  ( or other  folk)of you run across another    decmate let me know  
any  mores of them
 
special preference to the one in the  vt52  case!
 
Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 5/27/2015 11:32:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
sales at elecplus.com writes:




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May 27 18:24:14 2015
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:24:14 -0400
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <55664EC6.1070202@update.uu.se>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <55664EC6.1070202@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn_V7gdsonho=VA6MWcsNz_b40=UbL2rL2J7vHvYuKpDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>         http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg

Yep.  Looks like RC25 carts

> RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I think you only had a
> Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.

There's a Unibus controller for it.  The RC25 came standard with the VAX-11/725.

-ethan

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 27 18:46:35 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 16:46:35 -0700
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn_V7gdsonho=VA6MWcsNz_b40=UbL2rL2J7vHvYuKpDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <55664EC6.1070202@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmimn_V7gdsonho=VA6MWcsNz_b40=UbL2rL2J7vHvYuKpDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <967898CA-9C56-4E54-8D35-779BDEDF04FC@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-27, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
>>>        http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
> 
> Yep.  Looks like RC25 carts
> 
>> RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I think you only had a
>> Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP.
> 
> There's a Unibus controller for it.  The RC25 came standard with the VAX-11/725.

Thanks for the responses, Glen Slick provided a link to the manual, a pic we have of the stuff shows a drive matching that in the manual, so yes, RC25:
	Disk drive, dual platter - one fixed, one removable, 26MB per platter, ~ 8 inch disks.

The processor is nowhere in the pics though so we'll have to wait till on site to see if it's still around.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 27 18:56:05 2015
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:56:05 -0400
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <967898CA-9C56-4E54-8D35-779BDEDF04FC@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <55664EC6.1070202@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmimn_V7gdsonho=VA6MWcsNz_b40=UbL2rL2J7vHvYuKpDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <967898CA-9C56-4E54-8D35-779BDEDF04FC@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <3E8F3AED-F9F0-4AA5-8674-5AFF8FBA790F@comcast.net>


> On May 27, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks for the responses, Glen Slick provided a link to the manual, a pic we have of the stuff shows a drive matching that in the manual, so yes, RC25:
> 	Disk drive, dual platter - one fixed, one removable, 26MB per platter, ~ 8 inch disks.

Ah yes.  That made for a lot of fun in some operating systems, since it?s the only device where powering down one unit also powers down a second one as a side effect.  In RSTS, a pile of machinery was implemented to keep people from shooting themselves into the foot with that.  If I remember right, part of that was to allow the system to freeze, so you could have the system disk (boot disk) on the fixed platter and still be able to remove the other platter if needed.  This was done to allow selling RC25-only systems to a Navy, for use on submarines where there isn?t much space.

	paul



From macro at linux-mips.org  Wed May 27 19:41:41 2015
From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 01:41:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505280131340.21603@eddie.linux-mips.org>

On Wed, 27 May 2015, tony duell wrote:

> But almost all shavers sold over here now run off internal rechargeable 
> batteries. Why I do not know. It's not as if the cable is a major 
> problem (unlike having a battery that is flat when you need it and which 
> has a limited life anyway). Amazingly the chargers that come with these 
> shavers have the 2 round pins to fit a shaver socket. Quite why you need 
> to be able to charge it in a bathroom is beyond me, but...

 That's because they fit virtually all ordinary mains sockets across 
continental Europe, that happen to be compatible to the common UK shaver 
socket for 2-pin unearthed (class II) appliances.  So manufacturers simply 
do not bother making a special version of shaver charger plugs just for 
the UK.  The same applies to toothbrushes.

  Maciej

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed May 27 23:05:26 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 06:05:26 +0200
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>

Is that a vt330 on the side?

/P


On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
> 
> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
> 
> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.
> 
> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
> 
> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.
> 

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed May 27 23:25:13 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 21:25:13 -0700
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <A7EDDDAE-20BA-4AB4-9A08-C8132E88EE32@cs.ubc.ca>

Likely I guess, but you're probably better at recognising them than I.

Couple more pics, including the rc25 drive:
	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/res/

More terminals below desks in the artifacs440 pic.

Could that be an empty Q-bus backplane above the RC25?


On 2015-May-27, at 9:05 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> Is that a vt330 on the side?
> 
> /P
> 
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
>> 
>> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
>> 
>> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
>> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
>> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.
>> 
>> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
>> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
>> 
>> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.
>> 


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May 28 00:33:50 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 00:33:50 -0500
Subject: more old stuff decmates
In-Reply-To: <14771.19b94a5c.4297ab07@aol.com>
References: <14771.19b94a5c.4297ab07@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuO7m4PZQVP9kWYkU2FcFXARofrZ0G9Qfusqkp+t3XXdng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ed,

I have a few WD78s and WT78s if those are the correct part numbers.

Where are you located? I'm in Illinois.

Thanks, Paul

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 6:19 PM, <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote:

> Cindy  ( or other  folk)of you run across another    decmate let me know
> any  mores of them
>
> special preference to the one in the  vt52  case!
>
> Ed Sharpe archivist  for SMECC  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
>
>
> In a message dated 5/27/2015 11:32:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> sales at elecplus.com writes:
>
>
>
>

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu May 28 01:02:19 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 08:02:19 +0200
Subject: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
In-Reply-To: <A7EDDDAE-20BA-4AB4-9A08-C8132E88EE32@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
 <A7EDDDAE-20BA-4AB4-9A08-C8132E88EE32@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 09:25:13PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Likely I guess, but you're probably better at recognising them than I.

Look quite a lot like it. It is what I would bring home from that lot.

> 
> Couple more pics, including the rc25 drive:
> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/res/
> 
> More terminals below desks in the artifacs440 pic.

Looks like vt220, but hard to tell.

> 
> Could that be an empty Q-bus backplane above the RC25?

Possible, not a DEC-enclosure though.

/P

> 
> 
> On 2015-May-27, at 9:05 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> > Is that a vt330 on the side?
> > 
> > /P
> > 
> > On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 02:38:04PM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> >> Does anyone recognise these DEC cartridges?:
> >> 
> >> 	http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg
> >> 
> >> Any details or knowledge of what systems they may have been used with?
> >> They're definitely digital, note the logo on the nearer one on the right.
> >> I can't recall ever having seen them. They're associated in this instance with 80s-era biomed analysis.
> >> 
> >> Also, anyone know what processor may have been used in a Becton Dickinson ARTIFACS 440 cell-sorting (FACS) rack?
> >> We're speculating there may be an embedded LSI-11.
> >> 
> >> Rob and I are assessing some surplus/scrap equipment for rescue but haven't been on site yet.
> >> 
> 

From plamenspam at afterpeople.com  Tue May 26 16:20:05 2015
From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 00:20:05 +0300
Subject: Tadpole UNIX: TP-IX
Message-ID: <CAPLeS_pLyrAaJ3SjJ=Lkq3soTMO3whHQdo2NNkizChdtte+yEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Does anyone has TP-IX/68k or TP-IX/88k tapes or preinstalled disk?
I have a bunch of 68k based TP32, found the documentation and original
EPROM.

And another board TP-880 which can run even more exotic release TP-IX/88k.

Thanks,
Plamen

From archer174 at gmail.com  Wed May 27 00:54:12 2015
From: archer174 at gmail.com (Brian Archer)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 22:54:12 -0700
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think you'll find the best upgrade for it besides the RAM is a faster
hard drive. Also I wouldn't go higher than nextstep 3.3. Blackhole (
http://www.blackholeinc.com) is your best bet for the stand. If this is the
one from eBay, would you mind sharing more details/pics of that next logo
motherboard box? I've never seen one before.

Thanks,
Brian Archer

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Steven Stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Just acquired a NeXT 68040 cube computer. It's way cool, but the
> responsiveness is unimpressive - I'd call it pokey.
>
> All 16 RAM slots are full for 16MB, but sixteen 4MB RAM sticks may help
> the speed.
>
> It has an internal HD, as well as the magneto-optical drive.
>
> One things it's missing is the monitor stand - does anyone have a spare
> stand for a NeXT N4000A monochrome monitor?
>
> Thanks-
> Steve.
>
>
>
>

From archer174 at gmail.com  Wed May 27 01:02:07 2015
From: archer174 at gmail.com (Brian Archer)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 23:02:07 -0700
Subject: RDI PowerLite 110 and OpenStep - watchdog-reset
In-Reply-To: <5564D889.1040007@willomail.co.uk>
References: <0CF984CF-7F5D-47E9-A4E7-1A47FCD323FD@gmail.com>
 <5564D889.1040007@willomail.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMX3xPbcKwKr931zY4P9+c32YqDOhkDg+vK=uXPSzkCQpE8bSg@mail.gmail.com>

Do you have another compatible sparc machine which you could install the OS
and transfer the drive from? Also is it possible to update the ROM to a
newer version on these? Just a gut feeling, but that would be my likely
suspect.

--
Brian Archer

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:33 PM, David Williams <dave at willomail.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 26/05/2015 00:15, Ian Finder wrote:
>
>> So I recently made a very poor trade for an RDI PowerLite 110 under the
>> assumption that it could run NeXTstep or OpenStep, as allegedly RDI
>> supplied the PowerLite with this OS in some configurations.
>>
>> The PowerLite is essentially an SS5 in a chunky, ugly laptop.
>>
>> When I boot the OpenStep and NeXTstep installers however, at the second
>> stage loader I get a "watchdog-reset" message from OBP.
>>
>> Ultimately it's the same issue as discussed here:
>>
>> http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3153&sid=b8cb75adb7245747301f9e82beef570a
>>
>> Any hope in getting this to run? Any ideas out there?
>>
>> Or am I stuck with a fat ugly wannabe SparcBook 3? (I have a few of the
>> 3GX/3TX family which seem like far nicer machines, the only reason I wanted
>> this RDI P.O.S. Is the weitek framebuffer in the SparcBooks isn't supported
>> by OS/NS, but the CG6 in the RDI supposedly is. What a garbage machine RDI
>> produced with this one...
>>
>>
> Ian,
>
> I had the same problem with a PowerLite 110. Couldn't get either NS or OS
> to boot. I'm not 100% certain but I've been led to believe the option RDI
> provided was the OpenStep framework on top of Solaris.
>
> I actually quite like the machines though :)
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>

From billdeg at buzz1.com  Wed May 27 18:26:08 2015
From: billdeg at buzz1.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 19:26:08 -0400
Subject: S-100 hardware tech in Phila Area for temp assignment
Message-ID: <001f01d098d4$83356e30$89a04a90$@buzz1.com>

I have some S-100 hardware that I need to work through for retail sale, more
than I can do myself given my current schedule.  If you're located in the
Philadelphia/Baltimore area AND available to work on-site (Landenberg, PA)
for a full day or two, contact me off list for details.  People with prior
experience in electronics, in particular S-100 hardware, preferred.   Please
advise your availability and any other concerns/questions.
Vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm
Bill



From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Thu May 28 09:41:06 2015
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 07:41:06 -0700
Subject: Storage Replicator/Volume Replicator Software
Message-ID: <20150528074106.6c4c8f4f@asrock.bcwi.net>

Hi All,

I'm looking for an old (before 3/2000) copy of Veritas* Systems "Storage
Replicator" for Windows or "Volume Replicator" for Solaris.

This is for business purposes - so there's a "bounty" available :)

Cheers,
Lyle

* Later sold to Symantec

-- 
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu May 28 10:33:58 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 15:33:58 +0000
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505280131340.21603@eddie.linux-mips.org>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca>
 <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505270754360.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4869@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <556624B9.8000107@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C490C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.11.1505280131340.21603@eddie.linux-mips.org>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4A02@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> > But almost all shavers sold over here now run off internal rechargeable
> > batteries. Why I do not know. It's not as if the cable is a major
> > problem (unlike having a battery that is flat when you need it and which
> > has a limited life anyway). Amazingly the chargers that come with these
> > shavers have the 2 round pins to fit a shaver socket. Quite why you need
> > to be able to charge it in a bathroom is beyond me, but...
> 
>  That's because they fit virtually all ordinary mains sockets across
> continental Europe, that happen to be compatible to the common UK shaver
> socket for 2-pin unearthed (class II) appliances.  So manufacturers simply
> do not bother making a special version of shaver charger plugs just for
> the UK.  The same applies to toothbrushes.

We have an IMHO ridiculous law that every portable electrical appliance sold 
over here ('portable' means 'can be moved without the use of a tool') must have 
a BS1363 13A plug on the end of the mains lead (of course having an IEC320 inlet
connector and supplying a suitable cable with the unit meets this. Ridiculous becuase
it has led to some very dangerous moulded mains leads, and in my case it has just 
caused a lot of moulded plugs to go to landfill (on principle I cut them off and fit a 
properly made, properly wired, plug). 

But for some reason shavers (and electric toothbrushes?) seem to be exempt from this.
Note that the 'shaver adapter' does not have to be included with a shaver.

-tony

From lrl at crisis.com  Thu May 28 12:15:28 2015
From: lrl at crisis.com (lrl at crisis.com)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 13:15:28 -0400
Subject: Storage Replicator/Volume Replicator Software
In-Reply-To: <20150528074106.6c4c8f4f@asrock.bcwi.net>
References: <20150528074106.6c4c8f4f@asrock.bcwi.net>
Message-ID: <540852aa055726d0d6b9be1ee162d331.squirrel@emailmg.ipower.com>

Lyle,

My neighbor gave me some Solaris software..i"ll look.

Also when you get a chance see if you have any HP 0950-2625 525mb 50 pin
scsi drives.

Danka,
Larry

> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking for an old (before 3/2000) copy of Veritas* Systems "Storage
> Replicator" for Windows or "Volume Replicator" for Solaris.
>
> This is for business purposes - so there's a "bounty" available :)
>
> Cheers,
> Lyle
>
> * Later sold to Symantec
>
> --
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> http://bickleywest.com
>
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>



From jws at jwsss.com  Thu May 28 12:24:49 2015
From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 10:24:49 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
Message-ID: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>


I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.

http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-1401.html

Thanks
Jim

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Thu May 28 12:32:57 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 14:32:57 -0300
Subject: Testing floppy drives
Message-ID: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>


    Howdy guys, greetings (as always) from Brazil! :o)

    I'm in a repairing spree! Got 5 (!) CP-500 (Brazilian TRS-80/III clone) 
to repair. All of them with single/double sided floppy drives, and the whole 
nine yards.

    Since it is not pratical to test all these drives on CP500, is there a 
good software solution I can use on a PC for floppy drive testing? Something 
that makes repairing easier? Long time I don't get so many drives to 
repair/refurbish/align

    Thanks
    Alexandre

---
Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique)
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu May 28 12:43:29 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 17:43:29 +0000
Subject: Testing floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
References: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4A5B@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

>     Since it is not pratical to test all these drives on CP500, is there a
> good software solution I can use on a PC for floppy drive testing? Something
> that makes repairing easier? Long time I don't get so many drives to
> repair/refurbish/align

IMHO the ultimate PC drive exerciser was something called a microtest. This is a 
combination of hardware and software. The hardware is an 8035 microcontroller 
+ ADC that was connected (and powered by) the PC serial port. The drive under
test was connected to the PC as B: and the (alas closed, proprietary) software run
(it would run on any PC compatible, IIRC the requirements were something like 
256K RAM, 1 serial port, any video card, even MDA). You then selected the drive
from a menu of many hundreds of drives. It displayed a diagram of the drive
PCB and you connected half a dozen grabber clips from the ADC box to the right
points on the PCB. It would then let you do all the drive alignments using the normal
catseye disk but without needing a 'scope.

I have no idea where you'd find one now ('On top of the small bookcase in my
bedroom, under the Heathkit aircraft navigation computer' is true, but not
much help). But it is something to look out for. I modified an old Amstrad PPC 
laptop to have a DC37 socket in the B: drive bay so I could hook up an external
drive under test and use the Microtest with it.

A dedicated drive exerciser that lets you do repeated seeks, etc, is useful too. In general
you _don't_ need to handle the read/write side at this stage, just checking the status
lines, sending step and direction signals, and if possible checking the frequency of the index
pulse. Years ago I used the parallel port on a PC for this (to work with a strange drive that my
normal commercial stand-alone exerciser couldn't handle), it seems to me this is the sort of 
thing you could trivially do with a microcontroller that has enough I/O lines.

-tony


From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Thu May 28 12:48:32 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 10:48:32 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <20150528174832.352ACC0470@smtp.hushmail.com>

This is too wonderful for works.

Kirk

On May 28, 2015 at 10:25 AM, "jwsmobile" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
>I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.
>
>http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-
>1401.html
>
>Thanks
>Jim


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May 28 12:57:40 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Testing floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
References: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281041330.29511@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 28 May 2015, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>   Howdy guys, greetings (as always) from Brazil! :o)
>   I'm in a repairing spree! Got 5 (!) CP-500 (Brazilian TRS-80/III clone) to 
> repair. All of them with single/double sided floppy drives, and the whole 
> nine yards.
>   Since it is not pratical to test all these drives on CP500, is there a 
> good software solution I can use on a PC for floppy drive testing? Something 
> that makes repairing easier? Long time I don't get so many drives to 
> repair/refurbish/align

Personally, I would use Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette.
There were a couple of programs for using it on TRS80, but I don't know 
where to find them, so use it on a PC.

You can normally do BETTER and more accurate alignment using an analog 
alignment diskette (+ 20MHz dual trace scope), but I think that the 
digital is "close enough".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May 28 13:00:04 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 28 May 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
> I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.
> http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-1401.html

Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of 
running a 1401?



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu May 28 13:00:24 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 18:00:24 +0000
Subject: Testing floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281041330.29511@shell.lmi.net>
References: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281041330.29511@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4A80@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> You can normally do BETTER and more accurate alignment using an analog
> alignment diskette (+ 20MHz dual trace scope), but I think that the
> digital is "close enough".

That is what was nice about the Microtest. It used the _analogue_ alignment disk
but took the place of the 'scope and drive exerciser.

-tony

From emu at e-bbes.com  Thu May 28 13:05:14 2015
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 12:05:14 -0600
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>

On 2015-05-28 12:00, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
>> I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.
>> http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-1401.html
>
> Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of
> running a 1401?

Probably not. Quoting the web page:
" ... but so slowly it would take more than the lifetime of the universe 
to successfully mine a block "

;-)

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 28 13:09:44 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:09:44 -0700
Subject: Testing floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
References: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
Message-ID: <556759E8.1070209@sydex.com>

A tool was published by Landmark called "Align It" and ran on MS-DOS.  I 
don't know if you can find it, but it was a pretty decent tester and 
even provides a test log for each drive.

I don't know if the guys at Accurite still have Drive Probe (a similar 
product to AlignIt) in stock, but they seem to still be selling it:

http://www.accurite.com/DriveProbe.html


--Chuck



On 05/28/2015 10:32 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>
>     Howdy guys, greetings (as always) from Brazil! :o)
>
>     I'm in a repairing spree! Got 5 (!) CP-500 (Brazilian TRS-80/III
> clone) to repair. All of them with single/double sided floppy drives,
> and the whole nine yards.
>
>     Since it is not pratical to test all these drives on CP500, is there
> a good software solution I can use on a PC for floppy drive testing?
> Something that makes repairing easier? Long time I don't get so many
> drives to repair/refurbish/align
>
>     Thanks
>     Alexandre
>
> ---
> Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique)
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
> Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


From cctalk at fahimi.net  Thu May 28 13:12:17 2015
From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:12:17 -0700
Subject: Testing floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <556759E8.1070209@sydex.com>
References: <0B86D8FFCFA44AB998FFB039306179A3@deskjara>
 <556759E8.1070209@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <019901d09971$d6148e90$823dabb0$@net>

> I don't know if the guys at Accurite still have Drive Probe (a similar
> product to AlignIt) in stock, but they seem to still be selling it:
> 
> http://www.accurite.com/DriveProbe.html
> 

I can tell you from experience that they do NOT. Basically, when you call
them if they don't have it they finally take it off of their site. Accurite
is just getting rid of old stock at this point. No new equipment/tools.

-Ali


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu May 28 13:12:28 2015
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:12:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281110010.29511@shell.lmi.net>

>> Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of
>> running a 1401?
On Thu, 28 May 2015, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Probably not. Quoting the web page:
> " ... but so slowly it would take more than the lifetime of the universe to 
> successfully mine a block "
> ;-)

Excellent!
Does anybody have enough 1401s to run them in parallel to speed up the 
process?

I wonder whether the 1401 emulator for the 1620 could do it?



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu May 28 14:31:57 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 12:31:57 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281110010.29511@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281110010.29511@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4B9B7085-C29F-4987-893F-FB397DFFC903@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-28, at 11:12 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of
>>> running a 1401?
> On Thu, 28 May 2015, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>> Probably not. Quoting the web page:
>> " ... but so slowly it would take more than the lifetime of the universe to successfully mine a block "
>> ;-)
> 
> Excellent!
> Does anybody have enough 1401s to run them in parallel to speed up the process?



The article mentions the CHM has two 1401s functioning, but I guess halving the time won't help much.

But it was interesting to hear they have two functioning, I previously was aware they had been refurbishing (just) one.

From captainkirk359 at gmail.com  Thu May 28 16:03:11 2015
From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 17:03:11 -0400
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281110010.29511@shell.lmi.net>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281110010.29511@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAKUYOb2tbF84CoG2UzMWhD6yg4AgKVjL1oGF30DCDCMbH6FNhw@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 May 2015 at 14:12, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Excellent!
> Does anybody have enough 1401s to run them in parallel to speed up the
> process?
>
Well, I think there are a few IBM System/360 and System/370 machines
out there, I think. Why not just use them in 1401 emulation mode (if
they have that option)? Should help as well.

...What do you mean just use them natively? But that's not nearly as funny!


> I wonder whether the 1401 emulator for the 1620 could do it?
>
>
Probably would still be a bit slow though. Maybe we could convince all
the people doing mining to just not mine one block and let the 1401s,
and hardware emulations of said architecture mine it? You know, for
the shits and giggles.


-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu May 28 16:49:12 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 16:49:12 -0500
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com> <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <55678D58.9030208@gmail.com>

On 05/27/2015 04:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I did a little checking today--I compared a male 163-type receptacle with a
> C14 receptacle.  The mounting ear holes appear to have the same spacing;
> the C14 is about 3/4" thick, where the 163 (metal shell) is about 1/2"
> thickness, so you'd need to enlarge the mounting holes about 1/8"  on the
> top and bottom.

Aha, I'm not a fan of non-reversible mods if I've got an alternative.

I'm leaning toward the C5/6 connectors at the moment; I see the cables 
around once in a while, but I'm not sure about the availability of 
chassis-mount sockets (I expect they're generally PCB-mount).

Option 2 is to use a mounting plate with a grommet and simply have a 
permanently-attached power cable - separate power cables on things are just 
there to get lost anyway ;-)

I'll arrange a trip back to the site where some of the test equipment came 
from though as there may be a nest of the original cables there - the 
problem will be finding them, as it was a bit of a dumping ground for 
ancient tech.

cheers

Jules


From js at cimmeri.com  Thu May 28 19:08:10 2015
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 19:08:10 -0500
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <5567ADEA.3010208@cimmeri.com>

On 5/28/2015 1:05 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2015-05-28 12:00, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 May 2015, jwsmobile wrote:
>>> I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.
>>> http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-1401.html 
>>>
>>
>> Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of
>> running a 1401?
>
> Probably not. Quoting the web page:
> " ... but so slowly it would take more than the lifetime of the 
> universe to successfully mine a block "
>
> ;-)
>
>

Wow.  Are common machines now really *billions* of times faster??

- J

From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu May 28 19:18:03 2015
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 19:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Old HP test equipment power connectors...
In-Reply-To: <55678D58.9030208@gmail.com>
References: <55652AFF.2090709@gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUw-v1p=PpJ_0Y94qS8Dy8s_vgixoUEvqNP5kC=ZN9Kadg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B335DD77-4856-405A-B5D5-90AE9D2D2B58@cs.ubc.ca> <5565503D.4050108@sydex.com>
 <556612D7.2090901@gmail.com> <556634BA.6080409@sydex.com>
 <55678D58.9030208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1505281908100.6881@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 28 May 2015, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/27/2015 04:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> I did a little checking today--I compared a male 163-type receptacle 
>> with a C14 receptacle.  The mounting ear holes appear to have the same 
>> spacing; the C14 is about 3/4" thick, where the 163 (metal shell) is 
>> about 1/2" thickness, so you'd need to enlarge the mounting holes about 
>> 1/8"  on the top and bottom.
>
> Aha, I'm not a fan of non-reversible mods if I've got an alternative.
>
> I'm leaning toward the C5/6 connectors at the moment; I see the cables 
> around once in a while, but I'm not sure about the availability of 
> chassis-mount sockets (I expect they're generally PCB-mount).
>
> Option 2 is to use a mounting plate with a grommet and simply have a 
> permanently-attached power cable - separate power cables on things are 
> just there to get lost anyway ;-)
>
> I'll arrange a trip back to the site where some of the test equipment 
> came from though as there may be a nest of the original cables there - 
> the problem will be finding them, as it was a bit of a dumping ground 
> for ancient tech.

Try these:

Schurter 0724 series:
   4300.0100 - solder terminals
   4300.0101 - pcb terminals

Schurter 2561 series:
   6160.0001 - solder terminals

Schurter 2562 series:
   6160.0002 - pcb terminals

http://www.schurter.com/Components/Connectors/Connectors-Inlets-Outlets

http://www.mouser.com/Connectors/Power-Connectors/AC-Power-Entry-Modules/_/N-axiqi/

[I couldn't do much more than a quick search since I'm really busy with 
flood cleanup.]

Keep in mind the C5/C6 couplers are only rated for 2.5A.

Something else other list members may find interesting is the Bulgin 
PX0578/63. Those are a C13 input coupler with 0.25in (6.3mm) quick connect 
terminals. I'm using some of these to connect power to some really small 
SeaSonic switch mode PSUs for embedded applications.

Both Bulgin and Schurter have all sorts of IEC 60320 connectors/couplers, 
but the best way to find them is to look at the datasheets and not 
Mouser's search. Mouser often has the terminations, mounting type, and 
sometimes even the coupler type listed wrong, so I always use the 
manufacturer's part number when searching.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 28 20:42:37 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 18:42:37 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <5567ADEA.3010208@cimmeri.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com> <5567ADEA.3010208@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <5567C40D.2040408@sydex.com>

On 05/28/2015 05:08 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:

> Wow.  Are common machines now really *billions* of times faster??

 From imb1401.info:

Thus, the average time to add two 10-digit numbers is 40 cycles, or 
about a 2.2 kHz add rate. Adding two 20-digit numbers is 70 cycles, or 
an add rate of 1.2 kHz. Compare that to a modern superscalar 
microprocessor with a peak add rate of two 64-bit add instructions per 
cycle at 3-GigaHertz, or an add rate of 6 Ghz; the modern microprocessor 
is 6,000,000,000 / 1,000 = 6,000,000 times faster!

So, no, not for the common ones of today.

The surplus stores during the 1960s used to sell 1401-style SMS cards by 
the crateful.  I used to disassemble them for the transistors.

--Chuck



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu May 28 20:45:32 2015
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 21:45:32 -0400
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <5567C40D.2040408@sydex.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com> <5567ADEA.3010208@cimmeri.com>
 <5567C40D.2040408@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfPMR0aVo=QDrbDzahT8mNv0W6KY4fvFB1+VTYVHGdyRA@mail.gmail.com>

> Thus, the average time to add two 10-digit numbers is 40 cycles, or about a
> 2.2 kHz add rate. Adding two 20-digit numbers is 70 cycles, or an add rate
> of 1.2 kHz. Compare that to a modern superscalar microprocessor with a peak
> add rate of two 64-bit add instructions per cycle at 3-GigaHertz, or an add
> rate of 6 Ghz; the modern microprocessor is 6,000,000,000 / 1,000 =
> 6,000,000 times faster!

Most (all?) Bitcoin miners these days use either badass GPUs or
dedicated Bitcoin hardware, so the number is quite a bit larger.

--
Will

From seefriek at gmail.com  Thu May 28 21:53:07 2015
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:53:07 -0400
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
(6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
constraints, I'm thinking:

- Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
- 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
what you gotta do...
- No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
- I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend closer
to 465 money than TLA7012 money
- Decent analytics, hopefully more than "here's your traces...good luck"
- Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on what
looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium cable, or
the software disk that the vendor will be more than happy to provide you
only under a cripplingly expensive support contract.

A brief cruse of ePay didn't turn up much Tek/HP/Agilent older-generation
kit that looked like it fit the budget, but I'm not entirely sure I know
what I'm looking at.  I know there's a general allergy to anything USB
around here, and worse Windows-based USB software, but there is tons of
USB-based stuff that looked like a possibility for those who are willing to
hold their nose.

So have the USB logic analyzers achieved Willem levels of usefulness (which
one?), or is there a must-have Tek 465 moral equivalent I need to be
looking for?

KJ

From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu  Thu May 28 22:06:27 2015
From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:06:27 -0500
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5567D7B3.8070403@email.wustl.edu>


On 05/28/2015 09:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
> Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
> a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
> constraints, I'm thinking:
>
> - Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
> - 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
> what you gotta do...
> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> - I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend closer
> to 465 money than TLA7012 money
>
The Tek 1240 should work.  If you want disassemblers, you need to look 
up whether those specific CPUs are supported, but many of the common 
ones from that vintage were available.

Probably not 68030, though.

The DAS9200 is a lot more capable, but had several different families of 
acq cards, and some used different (incompatible) pods for the CPU 
connection.

There's also the TLA 710 /TLA 720 series that are basically DAS9200's.  
These are often cheap on eBay.  They are able to be connected to the 
net, and you can access them from a Linux PC.

Jon

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May 29 00:33:15 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 05:33:15 +0000
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4B9C@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
> a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
> constraints, I'm thinking:

Firstly a word of caution. When I was younger, and LA's were very expensive (none
had become surplus), I dreamed of owning one and thought it would solve all my
debugging problems. Many years later I did get one and while useful (I use it a lot
more than a 'scope) I have realised it is not a magic box that provides all the answers.
Useful, sure, but not a substitute for thinking ;-)

> - Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
> - 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
> what you gotta do...
> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)

That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.

> - I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend closer
> to 465 money than TLA7012 money
> - Decent analytics, hopefully more than "here's your traces...good luck"
> - Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on what
> looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium cable, or
> the software disk that the vendor will be more than happy to provide you
> only under a cripplingly expensive support contract.

The 2 I have : 

Gould Biomation K100D (manual on bitsavers). All standard 10K ECL in the input
side, controlled by a 6800 with ROM firmware. HPIB host interface

HP1630 (manual from whatever Agilent became, includes schemaitcs, unlike later HP
LA manuals). This has custom ECL ICs in the input stage, but a lot of standard logic
too. Controlled by a 6809, and this is the only time I have seen the 6829 used. HPIB
and HPIL interfaces. 

Neither of these need softwre disks to work. Both have documented command sets, 
so you can control them from a machine with an HPIB interface (I use an HP9000/200
machine for this). 

Make sure you get the pods/leads when buying a second-hand LA. They often go 
missing, and are unobtainium. Making your own is not a real option, although
both the LA's I have mentioned have differential ECL inputs, so a TTL-only pod
is a possible project (look at the 10124 chip). 

-tony


A brief cruse of ePay didn't turn up much Tek/HP/Agilent older-generation
kit that looked like it fit the budget, but I'm not entirely sure I know
what I'm looking at.  I know there's a general allergy to anything USB
around here, and worse Windows-based USB software, but there is tons of
USB-based stuff that looked like a possibility for those who are willing to
hold their nose.

So have the USB logic analyzers achieved Willem levels of usefulness (which
one?), or is there a must-have Tek 465 moral equivalent I need to be
looking for?

KJ

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu May 28 10:20:50 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 11:20:50 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>

It was always my experience ... I think NeXTstep had a reputation of being
a little balky on the proprietary NeXT hardware. I am fortunate to have a
decent swath of their product line ... an original '030 Cube, a Color slab
and a Turbo Color slab and even on the Turbo slab with 32 megs RAM and a
7200 RPM drive, NS 3.3 gets laggy.

Slow as it is, the entire package has certainly got some class and it's
something to revel at, of course.

Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary hardware? The performance
must be awful... I halfway thought NS 3.3 was the last revision they would
run ... 3.3 should be pretty common in the wild because NeXT was giving it
away for free with a valid NeXT serial number about 15 years ago as a Y2K
mitigation strategy :O I run 3.3 on all my NeXTs, even the '030 Cube.

If you really want to see NeXTstep 3.3 fly, people say it's great on the HP
9000/712 :O

Best,

Sean


On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Brian Archer <archer174 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think you'll find the best upgrade for it besides the RAM is a faster
> hard drive. Also I wouldn't go higher than nextstep 3.3. Blackhole (
> http://www.blackholeinc.com) is your best bet for the stand. If this is
> the
> one from eBay, would you mind sharing more details/pics of that next logo
> motherboard box? I've never seen one before.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian Archer
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Steven Stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Just acquired a NeXT 68040 cube computer. It's way cool, but the
> > responsiveness is unimpressive - I'd call it pokey.
> >
> > All 16 RAM slots are full for 16MB, but sixteen 4MB RAM sticks may help
> > the speed.
> >
> > It has an internal HD, as well as the magneto-optical drive.
> >
> > One things it's missing is the monitor stand - does anyone have a spare
> > stand for a NeXT N4000A monochrome monitor?
> >
> > Thanks-
> > Steve.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Thu May 28 12:31:09 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWFKa=SCY6qgWLqE-MUffE-Ji4=29_q-2MpdSBszq9StQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's cool. I'd love to have a copy of their deck just as a display piece
:O

Best,

Sean


On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 1:24 PM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

>
> I saw this article over on the Hercules group, and was amused.
>
> http://www.righto.com/2015/05/bitcoin-mining-on-55-year-old-ibm-1401.html
>
> Thanks
> Jim
>

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Thu May 28 13:49:07 2015
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 20:49:07 +0200
Subject: Sorry if I haven't back to you...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1432832400.2769.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1432832400.2769.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <55676323.6010200@gmail.com>

Hello Paul,
good luck for your surgery! I hope there's nothing too bad.

As for the "business", I sent you more emails in the last months, 
unfortunately no answer at all...
maybe I went direct to spam? :(
Anyway, when you are back good, please let me know something.
Thanks
Andrea


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May 28 21:51:05 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 21:51:05 -0500
Subject: Sorry if I haven't back to you...
In-Reply-To: <55676323.6010200@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1432832400.2769.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <55676323.6010200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNdQOa+eoxzhxRswDBJU4qhrd09Gvb5FtCL+WRZdq-uWw@mail.gmail.com>

I have a stack of boards here whenever you are ready. Sorry if i dropped
the ball. I might have missed it.

I'm going in Monday, should be ok, just a pain....well, a lot of pain...

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 1:49 PM, shadoooo <shadoooo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Paul,
> good luck for your surgery! I hope there's nothing too bad.
>
> As for the "business", I sent you more emails in the last months,
> unfortunately no answer at all...
> maybe I went direct to spam? :(
> Anyway, when you are back good, please let me know something.
> Thanks
> Andrea
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May 29 08:30:49 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 09:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
Message-ID: <20150529133049.5F93B18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > On 05/28/2015 09:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:

    >> Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on
    >> what looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium
    >> cable

    > The Tek 1240 should work. 

I can second that. I recently bought a flock of them (for spares/parts for
the first one I bought), because they were so cheap on eBay - several I got
for $25 + shipping. Most of the ones I bought came without probes, etc, but I
managed to round up a very complete set of stuff without spending too much
money. Tek documentation is incredibly thorough, and easy to obtain; and they
are very easy to work on (in terms of accessability, etc). Etc, etc, etc.

The speeds/etc you are looking for are within their range. When filled with 4
16-channel data acquisition cards, you get 64 channels. They seem to have
quite powerful triggering/etc capabilities, and they are easy to use/control.

The only possible issue (for some people) is that the memories aren't large
(although you can chain identical DACs together to get slightly longer
memories). And I'll echo Tony's comments - ECL is pretty much de rigeur, and
as for making your own probes, fuhgeddaboutit; the 1240's probe pods (there
are two kinds, TTL-only, and 'pick a voltage') contain giant custom chips.

	Noel

From abs at absd.org  Fri May 29 08:41:34 2015
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:41:34 +0100
Subject: 8-bit Computer TV Channel Use
In-Reply-To: <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
References: <E8B9FB5D-526F-44C4-85DE-FBAA27396777@nf6x.net>
 <20150522001346.200CD2073C28@huey.classiccmp.org>
 <93412CE6-3087-4564-B6E0-DA19F7F505D0@nf6x.net>
 <F749B48C-DA33-4F8D-AF89-9226C495A95F@nf6x.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505221336570.6402@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngmH4T96NqYN659MpXcEvCF9CVng-rPPYrukiv0G9CUS_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4258@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
 <CACaZngmZ-aWH4uUULgFYsL0cGZ5H24TBEM70hfVVtp9zruXaRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBA2F2C9-989C-4092-AE2F-89F517A370C0@nf6x.net>
 <067BC6A1-2ADE-4874-A5C7-7BE633B6669B@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pbceYjYYc0h2hOa1tA5RHpPnk6d6StzHZoqv_zezr8J+A@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 May 2015 at 16:35, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
>
> Are you on the CoCo mailing list? Have you seen the RGB2VGA by Luis Antoniosi (CoCoDemus)? I know at one point he had been tinkering with making it support composite from the Apple II. It?s semi open-source, I think there are 2 versions and the latest version is currently all closed source.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/tandycocoloco/rgb2vga

Is it me or was there a trick missed in the ADC section?

> To measure a voltage signal you need to perform successive comparisons against different
> voltage levels until you find which voltage is higher. For 3-bit ADC we need to perform 8
> comparisons. We start with the DAC in 000 (the lowest voltage) and this will return 0 or 1
> according to the signal voltage. We concatenate all the subsequent tests to create a
> thermometer for the signal.
> [...]
> This will gives us the voltage of the signal, but there are errors due to noise and voltage
> fluctuation. We will never be free of them though one way to reduce the problem is to perform
> more tests, adding more bits to the DAC. Unfortunately we are on the limit of the FPGA
> clock speed.

If you have 8 comparisons to spend I wonder if a modified binary chop
would have been more efficient? A standard binary chop would take
three comparisons, but I would have thought if you repeated each stage
twice (and a third time for up to two of them if they differed), that
would give you a more robust output...

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri May 29 09:09:54 2015
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 07:09:54 -0700
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>


On May 28, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary hardware? The performance
> must be awful? 

My NeXTstation 25mhz 68040 with 40 megs of RAM runs OPENSTEP 4.2 just fine. I never felt like it was laggy or anything. In fact, when I got OSX (aka OPENSTEP 5) running on a beige G3 tower for the first time, I couldn?t understand why it was so absolutely unusable, since the performance of OPENSTEP 4 on my NeXT was very snappy.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com




From cube1 at charter.net  Fri May 29 08:20:17 2015
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 08:20:17 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_QHeeFtjWG7oUf3P5bB180tB=Zz=PqtvhJg1KkesQfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=-cjVYp_viNxwRMJRzCGF7MeGrPxaHnr8dKu+3GdP+u-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=_QHeeFtjWG7oUf3P5bB180tB=Zz=PqtvhJg1KkesQfYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55686791.9050806@charter.net>

If you haven't yet found one, I have spares for the switch cover - I
have an entire console and the backplanes (with the cards) whose machine
was disassembled out from underneath them.

JRJ

On 5/10/2015 9:45 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:
> Sorry, I sent the message before I was finished.
> 
> The CRT in the VR14 has severe screen rot. Hopefully we can find a
> replacement CRT, or get some help with removing the outer layer of glass.
> One of the lime green switches on the front panel has broken pivots. Anyone
> have a spare?
> 
> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Michael Thompson <
> michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The RICM is restoring a PDP-12. This system was manufactured in December
>> of 1972, so it is very late in the life of the PDP-12. The Priority
>> Interrupt and the Data Multiplexer are hardwired in two extra columns in
>> the processor chassis. These options were in separate chassis in earlier
>> models. It came with an Omnibus expansion chassis that connects to the
>> Posibus from the PDP-12. The LP01, RK05, and PC04 controllers are in the
>> Omnibus chassis. The VR14 and TU56 controllers are in the processor
>> chassis. We got the LP01 too.
>>
>> The donor did a great job of preserving the machine, and has all of the
>> original documentation and software. The processor and RK8-F prints are
>> newer than what I can find on the Web, so I will scan them and send the
>> PDFs to Bitsavers.
>>
>> Yesterday we reformed the caps in the power supply and powered it on for
>> the first time in 24 years. It is going to need some debugging, but it does
>> show some signs of life.
>>
>> The CRT in the VR14
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Thompson
>>
> 
> 
> 

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Fri May 29 10:36:41 2015
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 12:36:41 -0300
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
References: <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D47B897DFA1843DFAA5F6A1D7EB7CE82@deskjara>


    I'd go to a 16500C. Handy do-everything analyser mainframe, which can 
have a scope and a pattern generator (mine has it all) integrated. Modular 
and most parts are WAY CHEAP.

    Of course you can go one step higher and get the 17500.

---
Enviado do meu Apple IIGS (pq eu sou chique)
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Seefried" <seefriek at gmail.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 11:53 PM
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers


> Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
> a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
> constraints, I'm thinking:
>
> - Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
> - 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
> what you gotta do...
> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> - I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend 
> closer
> to 465 money than TLA7012 money
> - Decent analytics, hopefully more than "here's your traces...good luck"
> - Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on what
> looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium cable, 
> or
> the software disk that the vendor will be more than happy to provide you
> only under a cripplingly expensive support contract.
>
> A brief cruse of ePay didn't turn up much Tek/HP/Agilent older-generation
> kit that looked like it fit the budget, but I'm not entirely sure I know
> what I'm looking at.  I know there's a general allergy to anything USB
> around here, and worse Windows-based USB software, but there is tons of
> USB-based stuff that looked like a possibility for those who are willing 
> to
> hold their nose.
>
> So have the USB logic analyzers achieved Willem levels of usefulness 
> (which
> one?), or is there a must-have Tek 465 moral equivalent I need to be
> looking for?
>
> KJ 


From commodorejohn at gmail.com  Fri May 29 12:41:47 2015
From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 10:41:47 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
Message-ID: <CABCBCvPJycDrRzLMXPJjFjPQv4M=MCPC_nx0vftwvLCvmx6BOw@mail.gmail.com>

> The article mentions the CHM has two 1401s functioning, but I guess halving the time won't help much.

Au contraire! Running two of them means it would take only more than
*half* the lifetime of the universe, which means you still have *less*
than half the lifetime of the universe left to enjoy it!

From seefriek at gmail.com  Fri May 29 12:57:10 2015
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:57:10 -0400
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>

From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
>> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
>
>That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
>TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
>standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.

I meant I'm not using any weird technology in *my* designs.  Sorry if that
wasn't clear.  I'm not particularly concerned about what the LA is built
from.

KJ

From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May 29 13:53:18 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:53:18 -0500
Subject: The old Monroe 10 calculator
Message-ID: <00e201d09a40$ba061690$2e1243b0$@com>

Not sure if this is old enough to count?

Warranty expiration date on the back is 5-20-1975 J

Comes with cassette tape.

No AC adapter to test it.

If interested, make offer.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 14:17:14 2015
From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:17:14 -0500
Subject: Possible large stash of equipment in California estate
Message-ID: <BAY179-W5839507C10C5DE22DF70D0B5C90@phx.gbl>

The following message was posted on the Large Format Photography Forum, to which I subscribe:
 
<quote>
 A good friend's widow has computer junk. He was a computer tech.
 A huge room stacked floor to ceiling with racks loaded with obsolete computers & stuff. Any idea what sort of reclycers she could contact which might be interested in offering her some $$ (which she could really use) for it? 
</quote>
 
The poster of the note lives in the San Joaquin Valley, California, so I am guessing the widow lives nearby. I have urged the poster to get a list together and post it here, but is there anyone who could help them out? If so, send me an email directly to r(underscore)a(underscore)feldman(at)Hotmail.com and I will try to connect you with the poster (I do not have his email yet).
 
Bob Feldman
 		 	   		  

From isking at uw.edu  Fri May 29 14:32:20 2015
From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 19:32:20 +0000
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G.  It's quite fast enough for the sort of
machines I'm logic-analyzing.  :-)

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> >> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> >
> >That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
> >TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
> >standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.
>
> I meant I'm not using any weird technology in *my* designs.  Sorry if that
> wasn't clear.  I'm not particularly concerned about what the LA is built
> from.
>
> KJ
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May 29 14:39:12 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 19:39:12 +0000
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4CF2@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G.  It's quite fast enough for the sort of
> machines I'm logic-analyzing.  :-)

Ditto. Well, I can't remember which model I was given, it's the one that's maxed out with 
'state' channels, but only the basic 'timing' channels. 

The manual is excellent (and available, AFAIK, from whoever Agilent became). The only schematic
you don't get is that of the video monitor -- and be warned that is a bit unconvenitonal as the scan 
lines are vertical (across the short dimension of the CRT). But you do get schematics of the CPU board,
state and timing boards, PSU, etc.

One practical thing I like is that the pod cables are 'captive' (held on by a screw-on metal cover plate) so
the pods are less likely to go walkabout (you've not seen my workshop :-))

As I mentioned earlier, it has both HPIB and HPIL interfaces. In theory you can control this thing from
an HP71B handheld (or an HP41 calculator?)

An HP1631 would be fun (it has a DSO board at the bottom as well as the LA functions).

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 29 14:41:59 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 12:41:59 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <CABCBCvPJycDrRzLMXPJjFjPQv4M=MCPC_nx0vftwvLCvmx6BOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABCBCvPJycDrRzLMXPJjFjPQv4M=MCPC_nx0vftwvLCvmx6BOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5568C107.90508@sydex.com>

On 05/29/2015 10:41 AM, John Ames wrote:
>> The article mentions the CHM has two 1401s functioning, but I guess halving the time won't help much.
>
> Au contraire! Running two of them means it would take only more than
> *half* the lifetime of the universe, which means you still have *less*
> than half the lifetime of the universe left to enjoy it!

An improvement might be to reduce the computation to slightly less than 
the lifetime of the sun.  Of course, "Bitcoin" and the human race will 
have long passed into oblivion...

--Chuck


-


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri May 29 14:44:08 2015
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:44:08 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <5568C188.5030704@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2015-05-29 10:09 AM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
> On May 28, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary hardware? The performance
>> must be awful?
>
> My NeXTstation 25mhz 68040 with 40 megs of RAM runs OPENSTEP 4.2
> just
fine. I never felt like it was laggy or anything. In fact, when I got
OSX (aka OPENSTEP 5) running on a beige G3 tower for the first time, I
couldn?t understand why it was so absolutely unusable, since the
performance of OPENSTEP 4 on my NeXT was very snappy.
>

My impression is the same - the UI on my Cube, slabs, is quite zippy. I 
think that hardware blitter helps...

--Toby


> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>
>
>
>


From rdooley at shaw.ca  Fri May 29 15:04:38 2015
From: rdooley at shaw.ca (Rod)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:04:38 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
Message-ID: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>

I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
list a heads up on this system before 

doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.

 

--

Cabinet 1:

Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement 

2- TU-58 tape drives

 

Cabinet 2:

BA11-KW

RX02 floppies

 

Cabinet 3:

2- RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD

 

Cabinet 4:

2-RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs

 

 

I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything but
it was turned off working fine.

 

The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
US$25 each

 

Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each

 

I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..

Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.

 

Pictures are here

 

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0

 

Rod

Rdooley at shaw dot ca

 

 


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 15:17:27 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 22:17:27 +0200
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS2564F60386B5EDE7F1D61786C90@phx.gbl>

That's good to hear.
2 weeks ago I got an HP1630D and last week a 1631.
Both came with pods, but the first one did not have the "plug"
with the test leads, and the second one did. So I bought the second
one too for the plugs with leads. The 1631 looks quite identical to
the 1630, but the 1631 has additionally 2 analog inputs. Not sure
whether I will need them.

>From memory, back in the 80-ties I used the HP64000 development
station. Additional boards can be put in the card cage that will give
you a 6800, 6809, 68000, 68020 etc, emulator pod. I am pretty sure
there are emulation boards with pods for almost any CPU of that
era. Intel CPUs too (yuk).  State and timing boards are also available
for the 64000. The 64000 is too expensive when offered ...  Recently
there was one on eBay for a few 100, but it was defective :-/
I'd love to get one.  Nostalgia I guess, but they were great.

- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Ian S. King
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 9:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers

I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G.  It's quite fast enough for the sort of
machines I'm logic-analyzing.  :-)

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> >> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> >
> >That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
> >TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
> >standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.
>
> I meant I'm not using any weird technology in *my* designs.  Sorry if that
> wasn't clear.  I'm not particularly concerned about what the LA is built
> from.
>
> KJ
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." 


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 15:22:42 2015
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 22:22:42 +0200
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
Message-ID: <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl>

Isn't the QED-95 the "upgrade" (read: CPU replacement) for the 11/70?
That 11/44 is an 11/70 in disguise :-)  Or am I too late and should be in 
bed?

- Henk


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
From: Rod
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:04 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale

I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
list a heads up on this system before

doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.



--

Cabinet 1:

Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement

2- TU-58 tape drives



Cabinet 2:

BA11-KW

RX02 floppies



Cabinet 3:

2- RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD



Cabinet 4:

2-RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs





I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything but
it was turned off working fine.



The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
US$25 each



Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each



I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..

Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.



Pictures are here



http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0



Rod

Rdooley at shaw dot ca






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri May 29 15:28:19 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 20:28:19 +0000
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS2564F60386B5EDE7F1D61786C90@phx.gbl>
References: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEJ02_Q6Rvqb9dsJXOVKjH0a=qcrDdN8+1OADbTBM8R53JCg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <DUB110-DS2564F60386B5EDE7F1D61786C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4D3E@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> That's good to hear.
> 2 weeks ago I got an HP1630D and last week a 1631.
> Both came with pods, but the first one did not have the "plug"
> with the test leads, and the second one did. So I bought the second

The actual pods, which are plugged into the back of the instrument are
quite complex and have a ceramic hybrid circuit inside. Not the sort of thing
to attempt to replicate. The input to the pod is a pin header with an 
odd spacing. The lead from that to the grabber clips is just wires, so something
could be kludged up

> one too for the plugs with leads. The 1631 looks quite identical to
> the 1630, but the 1631 has additionally 2 analog inputs. Not sure
> whether I will need them.

They are much the same instrument -- I think the same manual covers both, Most of the
boards are the same (there may well be different firmware on the CPU board, but I think
that is the only change). The 1631 has an extra PCB at the bottom which contains the custom
input and ADC circuitry to make it act as a digital storage 'scope too. 

-tony

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Fri May 29 15:37:40 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:37:40 -0500
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <05E4D0C8-C213-41D2-8EAD-B69E2B56B206@gmail.com>

I'd suggest to go for the king of the hill at the time, and get an HP 16xx (163x, 165x, 166x, 167x) for all-in-ones or the 16500 if you like to modularize yourself, although tis latter one is much harder to put together since you have to get the frame, the plug ins, the software, etc... 
On the 16yx, the higher the y number, the better the machine (i.e faster, better screens, more memory). They are widely available, starting at below $100 for the earlier machines, and up to $300-$400 for the later ones. I'd recommend to have at least one that has a hard disk, so you don't have to find or make an old LIF floppy to boot from.
As always the rub is the pods/probes. I had to complete my set separately, but they are also widely available.
This is a relatively small amount to pay for what these machines actually are. The later ones have the inverse assembler for the 68000.
I got the luxury one, a 1670G with the pattern generator (which I haven't found an excuse to use yet). Here it is at work:
http://youtu.be/X_6limxLZ_k


Sent from my iPad

> On May 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> 
> Message: 20
> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:53:07 -0400
> From: Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
> Message-ID:
>    <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
> a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
> constraints, I'm thinking:
> 
> - Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
> - 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
> what you gotta do...
> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> - I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend closer
> to 465 money than TLA7012 money
> - Decent analytics, hopefully more than "here's your traces...good luck"
> - Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on what
> looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium cable, or
> the software disk that the vendor will be more than happy to provide you
> only under a cripplingly expensive support contract.

From connork at connorsdomain.com  Fri May 29 15:44:03 2015
From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 16:44:03 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
Message-ID: <5568CF93.8000304@connorsdomain.com>

How I would love to have such a system.
But with no money and being on the other side of continent...
Anyway I would love to see photos of this system from whoever gets it :)
I have yet to get my first PDP 11... Well unless you count a DEC Pro 350...
Been searching for awhile but when they pop up they are either too far, 
already gone, or cost more then I can afford being on a college budget.
Oh well someday... ;)
Good luck selling it and good luck to whomever gets it with the moving 
process!

-Connor K

On 5/29/2015 4:04 PM, Rod wrote:
> I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
> list a heads up on this system before
>
> doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.
>
>   
>
> --
>
> Cabinet 1:
>
> Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement
>
> 2- TU-58 tape drives
>
>   
>
> Cabinet 2:
>
> BA11-KW
>
> RX02 floppies
>
>   
>
> Cabinet 3:
>
> 2- RL02 disk drives
>
> 1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD
>
>   
>
> Cabinet 4:
>
> 2-RL02 disk drives
>
> 1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs
>
>   
>
>   
>
> I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything but
> it was turned off working fine.
>
>   
>
> The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
> US$25 each
>
>   
>
> Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each
>
>   
>
> I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..
>
> Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.
>
>   
>
> Pictures are here
>
>   
>
> http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0
>
>   
>
> Rod
>
> Rdooley at shaw dot ca
>
>   
>
>   
>


From kirkbdavis at hush.com  Fri May 29 15:56:37 2015
From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (Kirk B Davis)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:56:37 -0700
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale 
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
 <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl> 
Message-ID: <20150529205637.31E5BC140A@smtp.hushmail.com>

Found this about the QED-95

https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_quickwareE.31995_3518743/QED-95_Ver_4.3_1995_djvu.txt

Doc claims ~6.5 X over a 11/70

Here's eBay listed for just the board set at $900

http://www.ebay.com/itm/QED-95-PDP-CPU-5-Board-Upgrade-Kit-with-Cables-/200602265914

On May 29, 2015 at 1:22 PM, "Henk Gooijen" <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Isn't the QED-95 the "upgrade" (read: CPU replacement) for the 
>11/70?
>That 11/44 is an 11/70 in disguise :-)  Or am I too late and 
>should be in 
>bed?
>
>- Henk
>
>
>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- 
>From: Rod
>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:04 PM
>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
>
>I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to 
>give the
>list a heads up on this system before
>
>doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.
>
>
>
>--
>
>Cabinet 1:
>
>Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement
>
>2- TU-58 tape drives
>
>
>
>Cabinet 2:
>
>BA11-KW
>
>RX02 floppies
>
>
>
>Cabinet 3:
>
>2- RL02 disk drives
>
>1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD
>
>
>
>Cabinet 4:
>
>2-RL02 disk drives
>
>1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs
>
>
>
>
>
>I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee 
>anything but
>it was turned off working fine.
>
>
>
>The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data 
>carts for
>US$25 each
>
>
>
>Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each
>
>
>
>I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane 
>Washington..
>
>Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.
>
>
>
>Pictures are here
>
>
>
>http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0
>
>
>
>Rod
>
>Rdooley at shaw dot ca


From wulfman at wulfman.com  Fri May 29 16:29:56 2015
From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:29:56 -0700
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <05E4D0C8-C213-41D2-8EAD-B69E2B56B206@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <05E4D0C8-C213-41D2-8EAD-B69E2B56B206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5568DA54.5000806@wulfman.com>

i own   a 16500B software is still on HPs site
i got it off ebay for 200$ fully loaded with a FULL set of probes
i am very happy with it

go for the hp


On 5/29/2015 1:37 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> I'd suggest to go for the king of the hill at the time, and get an HP 16xx (163x, 165x, 166x, 167x) for all-in-ones or the 16500 if you like to modularize yourself, although tis latter one is much harder to put together since you have to get the frame, the plug ins, the software, etc... 
> On the 16yx, the higher the y number, the better the machine (i.e faster, better screens, more memory). They are widely available, starting at below $100 for the earlier machines, and up to $300-$400 for the later ones. I'd recommend to have at least one that has a hard disk, so you don't have to find or make an old LIF floppy to boot from.
> As always the rub is the pods/probes. I had to complete my set separately, but they are also widely available.
> This is a relatively small amount to pay for what these machines actually are. The later ones have the inverse assembler for the 68000.
> I got the luxury one, a 1670G with the pattern generator (which I haven't found an excuse to use yet). Here it is at work:
> http://youtu.be/X_6limxLZ_k
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On May 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>>
>> Message: 20
>> Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:53:07 -0400
>> From: Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com>
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
>> Message-ID:
>>    <CAOrcWjx8hKjDDgcLyvzSbrotk8QmgBSf2KVnzbmSjpQrzzFKwg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Maybe only semi-OT.  I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
>> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
>> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
>> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it).  I'm looking for
>> a recommendation for a logic analyzer.  Considering my very modest design
>> constraints, I'm thinking:
>>
>> - Suitable for 50MHz designs (really more like <16MHz, but you never know)
>> - 32 channels would be nice, ~128 probably perfect, less...you know...do
>> what you gotta do...
>> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
>> - I'm willing to spend a few $$ to get decent kit, but need to spend closer
>> to 465 money than TLA7012 money
>> - Decent analytics, hopefully more than "here's your traces...good luck"
>> - Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on what
>> looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium cable, or
>> the software disk that the vendor will be more than happy to provide you
>> only under a cripplingly expensive support contract.


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by
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From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri May 29 17:54:39 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 17:54:39 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
Message-ID: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>



JOOI, does anyone know when Panaplex 7-segment displays started going the 
way of the dodo, to be replaced with LED displays (and, on the back of 
that, what were the advantages of a Panaplex-type display over an LED one?)

I just saved a few boards from a dumpster with such displays on (they're 
actually Beckman ones, not Burroughs), but I was a little surprised to see 
IC dates into 1981; I thought by then things had moved over to LED.

I'm almost certain that they're from old gas pumps - maybe the displays are 
just more readable in bright sunlight than LED? (there's a sticker on one 
of the PSU boards with a 'shipping date' in 1999)

cheers

Jules

From marc.verdiell at gmail.com  Fri May 29 16:18:14 2015
From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 16:18:14 -0500
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BB723465-3239-478C-A708-659CB1975EA0@gmail.com>

We do have two 1401s, and on a good day, they both work. No working 360s. But even if we could have the two 1401's talk to each other, it would still take about the age of the universe to mine a block. This is about the worst machine for scientific calculation, as it does BCD, character by character arithmetic, in a serial fashion, one BCD digit at a time. Hardware multiplication is an optional add-on feature on these machines (which we have)!

So no, you can never mine a real block in time with a 1401, or even a million of them. But that you could implement and run the algorithm is just a testament that the fundamentals of computing haven't changed, doubled with a vivid demonstration of the mind-boggling effects of Moore's Law over one generation. And having old hardware tackle modern tasks is just plain fun. And, lest I forget, a credit to the skill, talent and humor of our vintage programmer extraordinaire Ken, who joined us recently.

Marc

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 12:31:57 -0700
From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
   <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Bitcoining on a 1401
Message-ID: <4B9B7085-C29F-4987-893F-FB397DFFC903 at cs.ubc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 2015-May-28, at 11:12 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> Is the bitcoin output anywhere close to enough to pay for the costs of
>>> running a 1401?
>> On Thu, 28 May 2015, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>> Probably not. Quoting the web page:
>> " ... but so slowly it would take more than the lifetime of the universe to successfully mine a block "
>> ;-)
> 
> Excellent!
> Does anybody have enough 1401s to run them in parallel to speed up the process?


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri May 29 20:53:09 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 18:53:09 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-29, at 3:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> JOOI, does anyone know when Panaplex 7-segment displays started going the way of the dodo, to be replaced with LED displays (and, on the back of that, what were the advantages of a Panaplex-type display over an LED one?)

Panaplex and other 7-seg gas discharge displays were used in calculators up to the mid-70s. Actually one of the last uses in a calculator might be the HP-9815 (1975/6):
	 	http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/HP9815A.html
They were mostly used in desktops for the sake of the larger digit size but there were some pocket/handheld calcs that used the smaller versoions. In calcs, they were largely superseded by vacuum-flourescent displays which were easier to drive, had a longer life, and could also be made with bright, large digits.

Heathkit used them in some items into perhaps the late 70s.

They were also extensively in arcade/pinball games, as I'm sure many will recall. I'm not sure how late they were being incorporated into new designs in that arena.

In their heyday (early/mid-70s) I'd say they could produce a larger, more uniform, better contrast, display than the then-early LEDs. Would have to look at specs and some calculations but they were probably more energy efficient than LEDs.



> I just saved a few boards from a dumpster with such displays on (they're actually Beckman ones, not Burroughs), but I was a little surprised to see IC dates into 1981; I thought by then things had moved over to LED.

Yes, to be accurate, Panaplex was a Burroughs trademark. There was the Panaplex I series which had a metal grid anode in front of the segments for the anode, and the more-prevalent Panaplex II which has a conductive coating on the glass for the anode.

The Burroughs and Beckman displays are different in design. Generically, I refer to them as 7-segment gas-discharge displays. There were some lesser-produced designs from Japanese manufacturers.

Generally, their failing seems to be the cathode poisoning common to all neon bulbs, and 'burning' of the thin conductive anode coating where applicable.



> I'm almost certain that they're from old gas pumps - maybe the displays are just more readable in bright sunlight than LED? (there's a sticker on one of the PSU boards with a 'shipping date' in 1999)

Funny, I was about to mention that use. I remember them in use on gas pumps up to somewhere around the late-80s or early-90s. One of my bike routes takes me on a dike behind an industrial area. Sometime around the mid-90s I remember there being a yard filled with scrapped pumps, a lot of them missing the display/keyboard cover, so all the displays mounted on the big controller boards could be seen. I wanted to rescue some of them but never got around to pursuing it. I was kind of dissuaded by the thought they had mostly seen a long and continuous service life and may now(then) be of questionable reliability.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 29 21:07:51 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 19:07:51 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <55691B77.2090100@sydex.com>

I'll assume that you've seen the "roll your own" panaplex displays. 
Does that count as manufacture?

http://www.imajeenyus.com/vacuum/20101115_second_panaplex/index.shtml

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 29 21:10:43 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 19:10:43 -0700
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <BB723465-3239-478C-A708-659CB1975EA0@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1432918800.37049.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <BB723465-3239-478C-A708-659CB1975EA0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55691C23.2020905@sydex.com>

On 05/29/2015 02:18 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
> We do have two 1401s, and on a good day, they both work. No working
> 360s. But even if we could have the two 1401's talk to each other, it
> would still take about the age of the universe to mine a block. This
> is about the worst machine for scientific calculation, as it does
> BCD, character by character arithmetic, in a serial fashion, one BCD
> digit at a time. Hardware multiplication is an optional add-on
> feature on these machines (which we have)!

Well, you have to understand that the 1401 was used as an I/O device for 
the 7090//94 (cf. "SPOOL"), which were *real* scientific computers of 
the time.  You don't happen to have any of those, do you?

Wonder how long it would take on a Microchip low-end PIC MCU?

--Chuck


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri May 29 10:23:10 2015
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 08:23:10 -0700
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5568845E.8070907@snowmoose.com>

I am running OPENSTEP on an Axil 320 (SPARCstation 20 clone) with 416M 
of memory and a 60MHz SuperSPARC processor (sadly OPENSTEP (at least the 
version that I have) only supports one of the two processors in the 
system). The system runs OPENSTEP very well.

alan

On 5/28/15 8:20 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> It was always my experience ... I think NeXTstep had a reputation of being
> a little balky on the proprietary NeXT hardware. I am fortunate to have a
> decent swath of their product line ... an original '030 Cube, a Color slab
> and a Turbo Color slab and even on the Turbo slab with 32 megs RAM and a
> 7200 RPM drive, NS 3.3 gets laggy.
>
> Slow as it is, the entire package has certainly got some class and it's
> something to revel at, of course.
>
> Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary hardware? The performance
> must be awful... I halfway thought NS 3.3 was the last revision they would
> run ... 3.3 should be pretty common in the wild because NeXT was giving it
> away for free with a valid NeXT serial number about 15 years ago as a Y2K
> mitigation strategy :O I run 3.3 on all my NeXTs, even the '030 Cube.
>
> If you really want to see NeXTstep 3.3 fly, people say it's great on the HP
> 9000/712 :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Brian Archer <archer174 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think you'll find the best upgrade for it besides the RAM is a faster
>> hard drive. Also I wouldn't go higher than nextstep 3.3. Blackhole (
>> http://www.blackholeinc.com) is your best bet for the stand. If this is
>> the
>> one from eBay, would you mind sharing more details/pics of that next logo
>> motherboard box? I've never seen one before.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian Archer
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Steven Stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just acquired a NeXT 68040 cube computer. It's way cool, but the
>>> responsiveness is unimpressive - I'd call it pokey.
>>>
>>> All 16 RAM slots are full for 16MB, but sixteen 4MB RAM sticks may help
>>> the speed.
>>>
>>> It has an internal HD, as well as the magneto-optical drive.
>>>
>>> One things it's missing is the monitor stand - does anyone have a spare
>>> stand for a NeXT N4000A monochrome monitor?
>>>
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Fri May 29 11:33:10 2015
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 12:33:10 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
Message-ID: <9c44d.66066650.4299eec6@aol.com>

we have one of the  NeXT   cube  looking  computer, a monitor and a NeXT  
laser printer.  looking   for  an  archive stash of advertising lit. and  
graphics   we  can use  to build  a display around this hardware.   
Suggestions?  Thanks  Ed Sharpe  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 5/29/2015 8:23:20 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
aperry at snowmoose.com writes:

I am  running OPENSTEP on an Axil 320 (SPARCstation 20 clone) with 416M 
of  memory and a 60MHz SuperSPARC processor (sadly OPENSTEP (at least the  
version that I have) only supports one of the two processors in the  
system). The system runs OPENSTEP very well.

alan

On 5/28/15  8:20 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
> It was always my experience ... I think  NeXTstep had a reputation of 
being
> a little balky on the proprietary  NeXT hardware. I am fortunate to have a
> decent swath of their product  line ... an original '030 Cube, a Color 
slab
> and a Turbo Color slab  and even on the Turbo slab with 32 megs RAM and a
> 7200 RPM drive, NS  3.3 gets laggy.
>
> Slow as it is, the entire package has  certainly got some class and it's
> something to revel at, of  course.
>
> Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary  hardware? The 
performance
> must be awful... I halfway thought NS 3.3  was the last revision they 
would
> run ... 3.3 should be pretty common  in the wild because NeXT was giving 
it
> away for free with a valid NeXT  serial number about 15 years ago as a Y2K
> mitigation strategy :O I run  3.3 on all my NeXTs, even the '030 Cube.
>
> If you really want to  see NeXTstep 3.3 fly, people say it's great on the 
HP
> 9000/712  :O
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Wed,  May 27, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Brian Archer <archer174 at gmail.com>  
wrote:
>
>> I think you'll find the best upgrade for it besides  the RAM is a faster
>> hard drive. Also I wouldn't go higher than  nextstep 3.3. Blackhole (
>> http://www.blackholeinc.com) is your  best bet for the stand. If this is
>> the
>> one from eBay,  would you mind sharing more details/pics of that next 
logo
>>  motherboard box? I've never seen one before.
>>
>>  Thanks,
>> Brian Archer
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015  at 12:42 AM, Steven Stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Just acquired a NeXT 68040 cube computer.  It's way cool, but the
>>> responsiveness is unimpressive - I'd  call it pokey.
>>>
>>> All 16 RAM slots are full for  16MB, but sixteen 4MB RAM sticks may help
>>> the  speed.
>>>
>>> It has an internal HD, as well as the  magneto-optical drive.
>>>
>>> One things it's missing  is the monitor stand - does anyone have a spare
>>> stand for a  NeXT N4000A monochrome monitor?
>>>
>>>  Thanks-
>>>  Steve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>



From rdooley at shaw.ca  Fri May 29 13:06:43 2015
From: rdooley at shaw.ca (Rod)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 11:06:43 -0700
Subject: Dec pdp 11/44 for sale
Message-ID: <001e01d09a3a$392e2310$ab8a6930$@ca>

I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
list a heads up on this system before 

doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.

 

--

Cabinet 1:

Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement 

2- TU-58 tape drives

 

Cabinet 2:

BA11-KW

RX02 floppies

 

Cabinet 3:

2- RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD

 

Cabinet 4:

2-RL02 disk drives

1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs

 

 

I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything but
it was turned off working fine.

 

The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
US$25 each

 

Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each

 

I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..

Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.

 

Pictures are here

 

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0

 

Rod

Rdooley at shaw dot ca

 

 

 


From other at oryx.us  Fri May 29 15:47:17 2015
From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:47:17 -0500
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <5568C188.5030704@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
 <5568C188.5030704@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <5568D055.1090401@oryx.us>

Jumping in on the bandwagon.

A few years back, I had a friend loan me his NeXT slab for about a year. 25 Mhz 
CPU.  Everything pretty much stock.

My observation of the default GUI was it was pretty darn quick, not even taking 
into account the hardware it was running on.

Jerry


On 05/29/15 02:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

>>
>
> My impression is the same - the UI on my Cube, slabs, is quite zippy. I think
> that hardware blitter helps...
>
> --Toby
>
>

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat May 30 01:36:45 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 08:36:45 +0200
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
 <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55695A7D.4050605@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-29 22:22, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> Isn't the QED-95 the "upgrade" (read: CPU replacement) for the 11/70?
> That 11/44 is an 11/70 in disguise :-)  Or am I too late and should be
> in bed?

If I remember right, the QED-95 can be used as an upgrade in any Unibus 
system. I think there are some configuration difference, or something, 
when used to replace an 11/70 CPU, but the basic CPU is not specifically 
designed to fit in a specific system.

	Johnny

>
> - Henk
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rod
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:04 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
>
> I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
> list a heads up on this system before
>
> doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Cabinet 1:
>
> Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement
>
> 2- TU-58 tape drives
>
>
>
> Cabinet 2:
>
> BA11-KW
>
> RX02 floppies
>
>
>
> Cabinet 3:
>
> 2- RL02 disk drives
>
> 1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD
>
>
>
> Cabinet 4:
>
> 2-RL02 disk drives
>
> 1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs
>
>
>
>
>
> I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything
> but
> it was turned off working fine.
>
>
>
> The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
> US$25 each
>
>
>
> Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each
>
>
>
> I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..
>
> Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.
>
>
>
> Pictures are here
>
>
>
> http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0
>
>
>
> Rod
>
> Rdooley at shaw dot ca
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From quapla at xs4all.nl  Sat May 30 01:55:15 2015
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 08:55:15 +0200
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <55695A7D.4050605@update.uu.se>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
 <DUB110-DS279A8E33CD8D07CA10468286C90@phx.gbl>
 <55695A7D.4050605@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <7ff0faf0cb248846c65f88041252a33e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


> On 2015-05-29 22:22, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>> Isn't the QED-95 the "upgrade" (read: CPU replacement) for the 11/70?
>> That 11/44 is an 11/70 in disguise :-)  Or am I too late and should be
>> in bed?
>
> If I remember right, the QED-95 can be used as an upgrade in any Unibus
> system. I think there are some configuration difference, or something,
> when used to replace an 11/70 CPU, but the basic CPU is not specifically
> designed to fit in a specific system.
>
> 	Johnny
>
>>
>> - Henk
>>
snip snip snip

As far as I remember it was jumper configurable to could act as an 11/34,
11/44, 11/70. Not sure if an 11/84 was also possible.

Ed

-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May 30 02:48:53 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 01:48:53 -0600
Subject: Intel DEBUG-86 listing?
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQrMx2vGMDFY8DXeDFuNEbfNrMRJV3HRKT8jWcYpH8gsg@mail.gmail.com>

Did Intel ever publish a listing of DEBUG-86, as they did of their
Series II monitor for the 8080/8085?

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 30 10:14:22 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 15:14:22 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>,
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DC8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> Panaplex and other 7-seg gas discharge displays were used in calculators up to the mid-70s. Actually one of the 
> last uses in a calculator might be the HP-9815 (1975/6):
>                 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/HP9815A.html
> They were mostly used in desktops for the sake of the larger digit size but there were some pocket/handheld 

The Compucorp 320 series (and I assume 340 series, etc) used the same size Panaplex display as the HP9815
(may even be the same part) although they were handheld-ish machines ( for those with big hands ;-)) A little
earlier than the HP9815, so this does not invalidate your suggestion that the HP9815 was the last calculator
to use one. To be pedantic, wasn't there are later version of the 9815 with 4K RAM on the CPU board
(and no RAM expansion board) -- the 9815S or some such. That would probably be later than the -A model.

When did the HP59304 HPIB display come out and when was it discontinued? It uses a 12 digit Panaplex display

> calcs that used the smaller versoions. In calcs, they were largely superseded by vacuum-flourescent displays 
> which were easier to drive, had a longer life, and could also be made with bright, large digits.

I am surprised about the lifetime claim here. The VF display is a hot cathode device, which tends to imply a 
shorter life than a cold cathode part. VF displays were commonly used in consumer electronics (VCRs, etc)
in the 1980s and 1990s over here, and uneven segment illumination due to low emission from the filament 
was a common fault. Conversely, my HP9815 and HP59304 are, AFAIK, still using the original panaplex
display unit with no problems.

-tony

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 30 10:19:40 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 15:19:40 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> JOOI, does anyone know when Panaplex 7-segment displays started going the
> way of the dodo, to be replaced with LED displays (and, on the back of
> that, what were the advantages of a Panaplex-type display over an LED one?)

It would appear that in the early 1970s LEDs were very expensive. I have been looking at the 
HP5930x HPIB units and in many cases the status indicators (power on, listening, etc) are 
filament bulbs + driver transistors. I can think of no advantage to using a filament bulb in this
application other than possibly cost. The 59304, which has a Panaplex display and therefore
the HV supply to drive it, uses neon bulbs (NE2 sort of thing) as status indicators.

-tony



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat May 30 11:11:25 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 11:11:25 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5569E12D.2030107@gmail.com>

On 05/30/2015 10:19 AM, tony duell wrote:
>
>> JOOI, does anyone know when Panaplex 7-segment displays started going the
>> way of the dodo, to be replaced with LED displays (and, on the back of
>> that, what were the advantages of a Panaplex-type display over an LED one?)
>
> It would appear that in the early 1970s LEDs were very expensive.

At the start of the decide, certainly - but by 1980 I would have thought 
that the cost had come down significantly, and LEDs surely had better 
longevity than panaplex-type devices, so I don't know what the reasoning 
for using them would have been.

Thinking about it though, I'm not sure that I've ever seen a gas (petrol) 
pump with LED displays, although I don't know why they wouldn't exist. 
Mechanical displays seemed to be the norm back in the day, to be replaced 
by LCD displays in the nineties and 2000's.

cheers

Jules


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat May 30 11:19:31 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 11:19:31 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>

On 05/29/2015 08:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> I'm almost certain that they're from old gas pumps - maybe the
>> displays are just more readable in bright sunlight than LED? (there's
>> a sticker on one of the PSU boards with a 'shipping date' in 1999)
>
> Funny, I was about to mention that use. I remember them in use on gas
> pumps up to somewhere around the late-80s or early-90s. One of my bike
> routes takes me on a dike behind an industrial area. Sometime around the
> mid-90s I remember there being a yard filled with scrapped pumps, a lot
> of them missing the display/keyboard cover, so all the displays mounted
> on the big controller boards could be seen. I wanted to rescue some of
> them but never got around to pursuing it. I was kind of dissuaded by the
> thought they had mostly seen a long and continuous service life and may
> now(then) be of questionable reliability.

Yes, I've no idea how many of these ones are still working - although given 
that they're intact on PCBs, my guess is that they're the result of 
board-swaps and so one or two digits/modules may be out (or there are other 
board faults) but the rest are still operational.

In total, not counting ones which physical damage or obviously-failed 
segments, I think I have around 20 each of dual and triple-digit ones, plus 
a handful of quads, which is enough to do something with while having a 
spares stock. Hopefully the pair of PSUs that I rescued are OK, as they've 
got handy 6V->180V DC convertor modules on them.

cheers

Jules

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 30 12:30:34 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 10:30:34 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>

On 05/30/2015 08:19 AM, tony duell wrote:

> It would appear that in the early 1970s LEDs were very expensive. I have been looking at the
> HP5930x HPIB units and in many cases the status indicators (power on, listening, etc) are
> filament bulbs + driver transistors. I can think of no advantage to using a filament bulb in this
> application other than possibly cost. The 59304, which has a Panaplex display and therefore
> the HV supply to drive it, uses neon bulbs (NE2 sort of thing) as status indicators.

LEDs themselves weren't all that much more costly than the typical pilot 
lamp.  I recall sending $1 cash to Montsanto and receiving 2 red (was 
there any other color?) LEDs in return in 1969.

By the mid 70s, LEDs in consumer applications were getting to be 
ubiquitous.  That microwave oven with the TMS1000 MCU (I'll look at the 
date codes to get an exact date) had inch-high LED digits, driven by 
discrete transistors.

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat May 30 12:40:42 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 17:40:42 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>

> 
> LEDs themselves weren't all that much more costly than the typical pilot
> lamp.  I recall sending $1 cash to Montsanto and receiving 2 red (was
> there any other color?) LEDs in return in 1969.

Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips P850, etc
all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.

-tony

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 30 13:29:03 2015
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 11:29:03 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <556A016F.8020005@sydex.com>

On 05/30/2015 10:40 AM, tony duell wrote:

> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips P850, etc
> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.

I can think of a few reasons.

First, a filament bulb has the effect of visibly "stretching" a visible 
pulse.

Second, a filament lamp in an indicator application with a "keep warm" 
provision can have an extremely long lifetime.  Nobody knew what to 
expect as the lifetime of a GaAsP device.

Third, I'm not entirely certain what the supply situation was in, say, 
1974. Incandescent lamps were plentiful and available and inexpensive. 
  But new equipment certainly had LEDs as indicators in 1973.

Fourth, inertia.  Consider how long it's taken for the automotive 
industry to adapt to LEDs for even the simplest indicator applications. 
  Telcos were similarly slow on the adoption of LED technology.

The reliability problem was real--I still have some 7-segment displays 
from the mid-70s that have non-working LED segments.

--Chuck


From jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu  Sat May 30 13:29:57 2015
From: jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 13:29:57 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <556A01A5.6090503@email.wustl.edu>


On 05/30/2015 12:40 PM, tony duell wrote:
>> LEDs themselves weren't all that much more costly than the typical pilot
>> lamp.  I recall sending $1 cash to Montsanto and receiving 2 red (was
>> there any other color?) LEDs in return in 1969.
> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips P850, etc
> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.
>
Inertia!  The 11/45 was designed before LEDs were available, and so they 
never changed.  To do it right, the PC board would have to be 
re-designed to add the current limiting resistor.  I did the mod on ours 
by adding the resistor to the LED lead, as the bulbs were pretty tall 
above the board.

Jon


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May 30 14:41:37 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 12:41:37 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DC8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>,
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DC8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <AC438DE2-13A4-4909-A6F7-55C5DD6DB26F@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-30, at 8:14 AM, tony duell wrote:
>> calcs that used the smaller versoions. In calcs, they were largely superseded by vacuum-flourescent displays 
>> which were easier to drive, had a longer life, and could also be made with bright, large digits.
> 
> I am surprised about the lifetime claim here. The VF display is a hot cathode device, which tends to imply a 
> shorter life than a cold cathode part. VF displays were commonly used in consumer electronics (VCRs, etc)
> in the 1980s and 1990s over here, and uneven segment illumination due to low emission from the filament 
> was a common fault. Conversely, my HP9815 and HP59304 are, AFAIK, still using the original panaplex
> display unit with no problems.

Well, I have some number of functioning calculators using both Panaplex and VF displays. So yes, they both have the potential for longevity, but then one has to know the actual runtime of the considered devices for an accurate comparison. In my experience, failure over the typical use lifetime of the application device or for long runtimes is more likely for Panaplex/7-seg GD than VF displays. I've seen more faulty Panaplex displays than VF displays, even though the Panaplex are less prevalent.

Both Panaplex II and the Beckman displays seem to fail with a sort of 'burning'  around the segments and/or the anode coating on the glass. I'm not sure if it's ion deposition or deterioration of the element. The segment/s then fail to ignite uniformly. I'd say they are less reliable even than the similar-principle NIXIE tubes.

The filaments of VF displays are run at a low enough intensity that they have a very long life. I haven't seen problems with emission, I didn't think they were prone to such as it's simple thermionic emission, not the 'chemically assisted' emission of coated, indirectly-heated cathodes. I think some of the large complex VCR VF displays had uneven illumination just from border-line design of the physical relation of filament to segments.

I have a 6-digit clock I built in 1978, from individual VF tubes scavenged from a 1972 calculator. The calculator was used in an accounting office so it likely saw a fair degree of daily use in that first phase of life. As a clock, they've been running continuously 24/7 since 1978 (with the exception of the occasional power outage, repair, and one ~ 5 month period. It does have variable pulse-width dimming on the 60 Hz filament supply which would improve the VF tube longevity. I kept the two additional tubes from the 8-digit calculator as replacements but have yet to need them - all the clock digits are fine and bright, while the LSI clock IC failed once. Compare that to the lifetime of neon bulbs running continuously as power indicators on things like power-bars and freezers, which commonly fail or start blinking after some number of years.



From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat May 30 15:52:45 2015
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 22:52:45 +0200
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <5569F3BA.6050008@sydex.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DF8@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <556A231D.5030101@update.uu.se>

On 2015-05-30 19:40, tony duell wrote:
>>
>> LEDs themselves weren't all that much more costly than the typical pilot
>> lamp.  I recall sending $1 cash to Montsanto and receiving 2 red (was
>> there any other color?) LEDs in return in 1969.
>
> Is there a good reason why filament lamps were used on minicomputer
> front panels until the mid 1970s? Things like the PDP11/45, Philips P850, etc
> all used filament bulbs, not LEDs.

By the 11/70, as well as the PDP-8/M and PDP-8/F DEC had switched to 
LEDs. So they switched before 1975.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May 30 15:59:04 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 13:59:04 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>
Message-ID: <9F13AF71-0680-488E-944B-E5255CDDCD46@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-30, at 8:19 AM, tony duell wrote:
> 
>> JOOI, does anyone know when Panaplex 7-segment displays started going the
>> way of the dodo, to be replaced with LED displays (and, on the back of
>> that, what were the advantages of a Panaplex-type display over an LED one?)
> 
> It would appear that in the early 1970s LEDs were very expensive. I have been looking at the 
> HP5930x HPIB units and in many cases the status indicators (power on, listening, etc) are 
> filament bulbs + driver transistors. I can think of no advantage to using a filament bulb in this
> application other than possibly cost. The 59304, which has a Panaplex display and therefore
> the HV supply to drive it, uses neon bulbs (NE2 sort of thing) as status indicators.

And the annoying and inconsistent use of incandescent bulbs for the power indicator and optical tape detector in the 9830 . . when the main display is LED.


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat May 30 16:08:22 2015
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 23:08:22 +0200
Subject: IBM System/34 available in sweden
Message-ID: <20150530210822.GA22114@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I was just offered an IBM System/34. It's not my thing and I 
thought there might be some international interest even.

Documentation and software included.

Contact me for details.

/P

From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May 30 17:00:21 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 15:00:21 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca> <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-30, at 9:19 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On 05/29/2015 08:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> I'm almost certain that they're from old gas pumps - maybe the
>>> displays are just more readable in bright sunlight than LED? (there's
>>> a sticker on one of the PSU boards with a 'shipping date' in 1999)
>> 
>> Funny, I was about to mention that use. I remember them in use on gas
>> pumps up to somewhere around the late-80s or early-90s. One of my bike
>> routes takes me on a dike behind an industrial area. Sometime around the
>> mid-90s I remember there being a yard filled with scrapped pumps, a lot
>> of them missing the display/keyboard cover, so all the displays mounted
>> on the big controller boards could be seen. I wanted to rescue some of
>> them but never got around to pursuing it. I was kind of dissuaded by the
>> thought they had mostly seen a long and continuous service life and may
>> now(then) be of questionable reliability.
> 
> Yes, I've no idea how many of these ones are still working - although given that they're intact on PCBs, my guess is that they're the result of board-swaps and so one or two digits/modules may be out (or there are other board faults) but the rest are still operational.
> 
> In total, not counting ones which physical damage or obviously-failed segments, I think I have around 20 each of dual and triple-digit ones, plus a handful of quads, which is enough to do something with while having a spares stock. Hopefully the pair of PSUs that I rescued are OK, as they've got handy 6V->180V DC convertor modules on them.

If you look closely at the displays, esp. at an angle to the glass, you can see the anode coating on the inside surface of the glass. If you see a red/brownish non-uniform discoloration in that coating, or discoloration around the ends of the segment bars, or some black spots on the segment bars, that can be an indication of 'burning' or 'wear'. Not sure how bad it has to get before it's a failure/problem, or how long it might last once that begins to appear.

There should be nice high-voltage drivers on those boards too.

. . .
> At the start of the decide, certainly - but by 1980 I would have thought that the cost had come down significantly, and LEDs surely had better longevity than panaplex-type devices, so I don't know what the reasoning for using them would have been.
> 
> Thinking about it though, I'm not sure that I've ever seen a gas (petrol) pump with LED displays, although I don't know why they wouldn't exist. Mechanical displays seemed to be the norm back in the day, to be replaced by LCD displays in the nineties and 2000's.


No, I never saw gas pumps with LED displays. As I recall, gas pumps around here went from mechanical to Beckman GD displays sometime in the mid-70s, then transitioned to LCD in the late-80s/early-90s. So pumps in Britain never saw the gas-discharge display generation?

I think the display quality in the daylight may have been an issue, as you were raising earlier. Larger-size 7-seg LED displays in the early days weren't particularly good in high ambient light. Contrast was poor and segment illumination could be non-uniform as they piped the light out from the LED die(s) into the clear plastic bar forming a segment.
Theorising here, but the ability to use polarising filters on the GD displays may have been a comparitive benefit. Not sure you could use a polarising filter on LED displays as the emitted light may be non-uniformly polarised from differing orientations of the LED dies, so it wouldn't make it through a polarising filter uniformly.


Speaking of old display technology, as someone who has been collecting NIXIE and other-display-type equipment for many years, the NIXIE clock craze of the past few years has been a bit of a surprise. And now that crowd has discovered the other old display types such as the 7-segment incandescent Numitron & minitron displays, which are quite rare. If you want a display technology that was obsolete almost from the day it was introduced that would be it.

If I ever get around to building a NIXIE clock, I was going to try putting a motion detector in it to turn the display on/off for the sake of longevity of the displays.


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May 30 17:13:37 2015
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 16:13:37 -0600
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca> <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>
 <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <556A3611.1020202@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/30/2015 4:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> If I ever get around to building a NIXIE clock, I was going to try
> putting a motion detector in it to turn the display on/off for the
> sake of longevity of the displays.

An alarm would be nice too. Ben.
PS: On the web some where, they have all transistor Nixie clock.



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May 30 18:10:50 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 16:10:50 -0700
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <556A3611.1020202@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca> <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>
 <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>
 <556A3611.1020202@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <0EAF7CD3-7FBE-4111-A8AD-1CE2AFA73034@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2015-May-30, at 3:13 PM, ben wrote:
> On 5/30/2015 4:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> 
>> If I ever get around to building a NIXIE clock, I was going to try
>> putting a motion detector in it to turn the display on/off for the
>> sake of longevity of the displays.
> 
> An alarm would be nice too. Ben.
> PS: On the web some where, they have all transistor Nixie clock.
> 
Oh, top of the page here:
	http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/nixiegallery.html

NIXIE clock built from neon ring counters, although there are numerous transistors involved for driving the nixies.
I don't expect it's really practical in terms of reliability though.


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat May 30 20:27:48 2015
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 18:27:48 -0700
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
 <A7EDDDAE-20BA-4AB4-9A08-C8132E88EE32@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>

So Rob and I got onsite yesterday and ended up taking away a small haul of DEC equipment.

	- Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at least one drive works.

	- We were quite excited to see two 11/83 boxes, one of which was working with one of the RC-25s, running RT-11.
	  However when Rob got everything home and examined it, it turned out it was an 11/23 CPU in the running box,
	  and the other was mostly empty of cards, with no CPU.

	- A VT-330 terminal (left two other 330 displays, only one keyboard between the three of them).

	- 4-slot Q-bus backplane/rack unit, probably originally held the 11/23 CPU.

	- Some extra/duplicate Q-bus device controller cards.

	- RT-11 install media on floppy.

It was the data-collection end of the Becton-Dickinson FACS 440 equipment (Flourescent Activated Cell Sorting), 1980s technology that been in use till not too long ago. All the extra bits had been accumulated over time to keep the system going.

Sadly we had to leave the 440 rack which had two 5-6" X/Y CRT displays, 3KV power supplies, the laser table with two water-cooled lasers, photo-multiplier tubes, optics, etc.


From spacewar at gmail.com  Sat May 30 23:40:17 2015
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 22:40:17 -0600
Subject: Intel absolute object file format specification
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQPiOr5=j1ATs3cEFfdqx+rAbDVXFU-4PyQfnOWBpytZA@mail.gmail.com>

Various Intel manual reference an "MCS 80/85 absolute object file
formats" manual, order number 9800183B. Does anyone have this?  Note
that this is a pure binary format, not the well-known "Intel Hex"
format.

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat May 30 23:54:34 2015
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 23:54:34 -0500
Subject: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
In-Reply-To: <90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <AEDC56B4-984C-4034-B409-CA8BEBFD93CF@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528040526.GA29544@Update.UU.SE>
 <A7EDDDAE-20BA-4AB4-9A08-C8132E88EE32@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20150528060218.GB29544@Update.UU.SE>
 <90C96986-E0F5-41C1-BF6D-BA7AD223CB44@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOPJDjo6DiZOtAkwqPhXiG2JX1MWPFPYf7m3o=MAnC5Yg@mail.gmail.com>

Great save!

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

> So Rob and I got onsite yesterday and ended up taking away a small haul of
> DEC equipment.
>
>         - Three RC-25 drives with a dozen-or-so cartridges. We know at
> least one drive works.
>
>         - We were quite excited to see two 11/83 boxes, one of which was
> working with one of the RC-25s, running RT-11.
>           However when Rob got everything home and examined it, it turned
> out it was an 11/23 CPU in the running box,
>           and the other was mostly empty of cards, with no CPU.
>
>         - A VT-330 terminal (left two other 330 displays, only one
> keyboard between the three of them).
>
>         - 4-slot Q-bus backplane/rack unit, probably originally held the
> 11/23 CPU.
>
>         - Some extra/duplicate Q-bus device controller cards.
>
>         - RT-11 install media on floppy.
>
> It was the data-collection end of the Becton-Dickinson FACS 440 equipment
> (Flourescent Activated Cell Sorting), 1980s technology that been in use
> till not too long ago. All the extra bits had been accumulated over time to
> keep the system going.
>
> Sadly we had to leave the 440 rack which had two 5-6" X/Y CRT displays,
> 3KV power supplies, the laser table with two water-cooled lasers,
> photo-multiplier tubes, optics, etc.
>
>

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun May 31 01:01:10 2015
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 06:01:10 +0000
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <9F13AF71-0680-488E-944B-E5255CDDCD46@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4DDB@EXMBX15.thus.corp>,
 <9F13AF71-0680-488E-944B-E5255CDDCD46@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <A8192EF71C5C4946A240D25EDC8F9448027C4EAC@EXMBX15.thus.corp>


> And the annoying and inconsistent use of incandescent bulbs for the power indicator and optical tape detector in 
> the 9830 . . when the main display is LED.

Indeed. I had to replace the former (but not the latter) in my 9830. I am told the LDR in the tape sensor can
give trouble too, and it is a lot harder to find an indentical replacement for that than for the bulb. 

Another oddity is that the 9830 has the power-on indicator (a bulb and series resistor across the 5V line) 
whereas the 9810 and 9820 don't. In all cases the display is driven by firmware so it is blanked under
certain conditions so it's not that you can use the display as a power-on indicator on the smaller machines.

I like the power-on indicator of the 9815. It's a few ICs to display a row of dashes across the display when 
the display is not in use for displaying a number. 

-tony

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sun May 31 09:07:51 2015
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 09:07:51 -0500
Subject: Panaplex display history
In-Reply-To: <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <5568EE2F.2080807@gmail.com>
 <0F4C237F-B69E-4DEF-AE6C-9C600D55E843@cs.ubc.ca> <5569E313.6060608@gmail.com>
 <B226DBD0-A638-4641-9552-1000BC7E2EFB@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <556B15B7.6050305@gmail.com>

On 05/30/2015 05:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> If you look closely at the displays, esp. at an angle to the glass, you
> can see the anode coating on the inside surface of the glass. If you see
> a red/brownish non-uniform discoloration in that coating, or
> discoloration around the ends of the segment bars, or some black spots
> on the segment bars, that can be an indication of 'burning' or 'wear'.
> Not sure how bad it has to get before it's a failure/problem, or how
> long it might last once that begins to appear.

I'll give that a go. So far I've not noticed any like that, just the usual 
slightly-hazy appearance which every such display I've ever seen has.

> There should be nice high-voltage drivers on those boards too.

Yes, I'm missing the wiring harnesses and the interface boards which hooked 
up to the pump mechanicals, but I've got the driver ICs for the displays, a 
complete PSU, a second PSU board, and one of the Z80-based logic boards.

If the wiring was obvious (it's probably not) then it's possible that I 
could hook everything up and that there may be some sort of test mode to 
drive all the digits at once, which would save desoldering failed 
displays/drivers for reuse. We'll see.

> No, I never saw gas pumps with LED displays. As I recall, gas pumps
> around here went from mechanical to Beckman GD displays sometime in the
> mid-70s, then transitioned to LCD in the late-80s/early-90s. So pumps in
> Britain never saw the gas-discharge display generation?

I don't remember them over in the UK, just mechanical displays being 
replaced by LCD.  Although Nixies were used over in the UK, these types of 
7-seg GD displays seemed much rarer generally.

I just noticed yesterday (now that I knew what to look for) that one of the 
little old gas stations in town has pumps of the same style as the ones 
which I think these boards came from, so I'll go take a look at them when I 
get a chance (and maybe ask who owns them - I don't know if a gas station 
typically buys their pumps outright, or if they're leased from another 
company along with a maintenance contract)

> Speaking of old display technology, as someone who has been collecting
> NIXIE and other-display-type equipment for many years, the NIXIE clock
> craze of the past few years has been a bit of a surprise. And now that
> crowd has discovered the other old display types such as the 7-segment
> incandescent Numitron & minitron displays, which are quite rare. If you
> want a display technology that was obsolete almost from the day it was
> introduced that would be it.
>
> If I ever get around to building a NIXIE clock, I was going to try
> putting a motion detector in it to turn the display on/off for the sake
> of longevity of the displays.

I'm very tempted to completely over-engineer a clock, just for the heck of 
it: using one of my Nixie-based voltmeters for the display portion, keeping 
it intact and sticking it in a small rack along with some sort of old 
computer to drive it (either directly via the rear-panel interface, or via 
a D/A convertor). The computer would have 'net access, so if I could 
find/compile/write an NTP client for it, it would be perfect.

It would be way too power-hungry to just leave running all the time, of 
course, but it would be kind of goofy to see. For an alarm, well I know 
someone who has a 6V police siren from an old cop car... ;-)

cheers

Jules

From dmabry at mich.com  Sun May 31 10:25:12 2015
From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 11:25:12 -0400
Subject: Intel absolute object file format specification
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQPiOr5=j1ATs3cEFfdqx+rAbDVXFU-4PyQfnOWBpytZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTQPiOr5=j1ATs3cEFfdqx+rAbDVXFU-4PyQfnOWBpytZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <556B27D8.8000007@mich.com>

Eric Smith wrote on 5/31/2015 12:40 AM:
> Various Intel manual reference an "MCS 80/85 absolute object file
> formats" manual, order number 9800183B. Does anyone have this?  Note
> that this is a pure binary format, not the well-known "Intel Hex"
> format.
>
>

Check your inbox!


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sun May 31 11:29:42 2015
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 12:29:42 -0400
Subject: UA11 "Unibus Analyzer" Wanted
Message-ID: <CAJj77rvgCSGZOH+hgyZt2C8q1TGuQUSd2E2yQFDh4t4dXfKmLA@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't discover this wonderful project from Guy until *after* he had
moved.  And while he _may_ have a few boards left, they're still buried
somewhere in his amazing collection of "materiel" :->.

As I need to learn/work my way through various Unibus systems/scenarios ...
starting with self-education ... I'd very much like to acquire one of these
beasties.  Does anyone have a UA11 PCB, kit, or completed board, with which
they'd be willing to part?

A good home with a friendly family is guaranteed!

Many Thanks,

paul

From sales at elecplus.com  Sun May 31 13:04:31 2015
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:04:31 -0500
Subject: Franklin Ace 1000
Message-ID: <00a801d09bcc$3e7d5820$bb780860$@com>

Looks kind of like Apple II, but bigger.  Hasd 1 external 5.25" diskette
drive.  Missing one keycap (the letter F).

Make an offer, I can ship it.  Totally untested J

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 


From chrise at pobox.com  Sun May 31 14:36:19 2015
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 14:36:19 -0500
Subject: Apple-1 doh!
Message-ID: <20150531193619.GZ5160@n0jcf.net>


http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/05/31/usa-california-computer-idINL1N0YM0AX20150531

May 31 (Reuters) - A $100,000 check is waiting for a mystery woman who
donated a rare Apple 1 computer to a Silicon Valley recycling firm.

CleanBayArea in Milpitas, California, is trying to track down a woman
in her 60s who dropped off some electronic goods in April, when she was
cleaning out the garage after her husband died.

In one of the boxes, buried under worthless keyboards, personal
computer pieces and wires, was a 1976 Apple 1, a groundbreaking home
computer. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak designed and hand-built the
computers and sold them for $666.66 each. Only a few dozen are known
still to exist.

[...]

-- 
Chris Elmquist


From shumaker at att.net  Sun May 31 14:36:46 2015
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 12:36:46 -0700
Subject: FFS  Old HP Designjet Plotter stand - 24 inch
In-Reply-To: <00a801d09bcc$3e7d5820$bb780860$@com>
References: <00a801d09bcc$3e7d5820$bb780860$@com>
Message-ID: <556B62CE.8080301@att.net>

Before it goes to recycling, figured I 'd offer it here in case someone 
out there needs one.  I have a plotter stand for the old HP Designjet 
units such as 650, 750 etc* in 24" width*.  Set includes all the metal 
parts including the wire frame paper basket and the little plastic clip 
that goes on the front edges of the paper tray. Mounting screws are long 
gone but they are standard thread screws (and still available from HP if 
you *really* want to give away lots of pennies).  Hardware is used but 
in good condition.  Free for shipping from 95006 in two medium to large 
boxes.   I will get a cost for anyone interested.

Steve



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun May 31 22:49:23 2015
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:49:23 -0400
Subject: PDP 11/44 for sale
In-Reply-To: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
References: <000301d09a4a$b21f7d90$165e78b0$@ca>
Message-ID: <556BD643.1030304@compsys.to>

 >Rod wrote:

>I have been on this list for a long time as a reader and wanted to give the
>list a heads up on this system before 
>
>doing anything else in case somebody wants it and can pick it up.
> 
>--
>
>Cabinet 1:
>Quickware Engineering QED-95 CPU replacement 
>2- TU-58 tape drives
>
>Cabinet 2:
>BA11-KW
>RX02 floppies
>
>Cabinet 3:
>2- RL02 disk drives
>1-MDI 76-contains 1 Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HD
>
>Cabinet 4:
>2-RL02 disk drives
>1-MDI 276-contains two Maxtor XT8760EM 760 Meg HDs
>
>I am asking US$3000.00 for the four cabinets. I can't guarantee anything but
>it was turned off working fine.
>
>The buyer would have the option of buying up to 18 RL02K-DC data carts for
>US$25 each
>
>Shipping is probably not an option they are about 300lbs + each
>
>I am located in Kelowna BC Canada about 3hrs north of Spokane Washington..
>Preference would have to go to someone that could come and get it.
>
>Pictures are here
>
>http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/32499942349-1432868285-94725/0
>
>Rod
>
>Rdooley at shaw dot ca
>
My son has a trailer and could pick it up for me.

Is there any possibility of turning on the system and checking if it boots?
Which Operating System was being used before it was turned off?  How
long ago was the system run?  Where has it been stored?  Do you have any
terminals?  Should he bring one with him?  Would a VT100 be satisfactory?

Jerome Fine

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Sun May 31 09:47:55 2015
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 09:47:55 -0500
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=-KXrzAnQ8kxmGcKsAcwkjRmTAZTjzhPeHeZUsxSv8i7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=-KXrzAnQ8kxmGcKsAcwkjRmTAZTjzhPeHeZUsxSv8i7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A1D9A54-BCC1-4A7A-BEB3-BD034807C929@gmail.com>

Michael,

Sounds like you're making some real progress. Next time you're near the ASR33, check the rubber hammer for the print cylinder. These have a tendency to self destruct and in doing so, destroy the cylinder itself...and they can go at anytime. There's a fellow on the Greenkeys that has tooled up and is producing replacements; same profile as the original and easy to install. Cheap insurance, really. -C


On May 31, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Michael Thompson wrote:

> We spent some time on the console Teletype that came with the PDP-12. The
> platen was nearly impossible to move, so the Line Feed did not work. We
> removed the platen, and found that the plastic in the bearing area had
> swollen and was binding. We sanded, cleaned, and lubricate the bearing
> surface and the platen now turns freely. On reassembly we found that none
> of the Control Characters like Line Feed or Bell would work in Local Mode. We
> fiddled for quite a while, but did not find a problem. We speculated that
> something got bent when it could not move the binding platen.
> 
> We found a bad SN7474 E13 on the M706 Teletype Receiver flip-chip from the
> PDP-12. We will repair and test it next week.
> 
> We borrowed the M706 Teletype receiver from the PDP-8/I and connected the
> Teletype to the PDP-12. We loaded and ran a toggle-in program that echos
> the keyboard to the printer. We were a little surprised when everything in
> the Teletype worked OK. We were even more surprised when the Teletype now
> worked correctly in local mode.
> 
> We borrowed the console cable from the PDP-8/I and connected my laptop to
> the PDP-12. The terminal emulator worked correctly and echoed characters to
> the PDP-12 and back.
> 
> We toggled in the RIM loader and then loaded the LBAA BIN loader from my
> laptop. We ran the BIN loader and loaded and ran the PDP-8/I Instruction
> Test #1. It actually works OK!
> 
> We tried twice to load MAINDEC-8I-D02B-D Instruction Test #2, but failed
> both times. Running that diagnostic and others will be the project for next
> week.
> 
> Al Kossow posted LOTS of PDP-12 manuals to Bitsavers. One manual includes
> the allowable ripple for the power supplies. They allow 3,000mV of ripple
> on the -30V supply for the core memory, so I guess that the 180mV that we
> measured two weeks ago is OK.
> 
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson <
> michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474
>> and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems. The ones in
>> slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed the problem with the JMP
>> instruction. We did some more testing with the toggle-in programs and found
>> that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of
>> the toggle-in tests pass, so the processor is substantially functional.
>> 
>> Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced the
>> G221 in slot D10 to fix that.
>> 
>> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics were
>> sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it free and
>> working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could not receive
>> anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester. The spare is also
>> broken, so we need to fix both.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael Thompson


From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Sun May 31 08:08:26 2015
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 09:08:26 -0400
Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=9jwsj8VTA26g7XDHsbkW=mvA5BYHnNSpjWNRKLYQ7_1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH1BU=9P0wRSYet6+90=4rsf-yC_uaS==wDoHZO-PhyX47kC7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=-KXrzAnQ8kxmGcKsAcwkjRmTAZTjzhPeHeZUsxSv8i7g@mail.gmail.com>

We spent some time on the console Teletype that came with the PDP-12. The
platen was nearly impossible to move, so the Line Feed did not work. We
removed the platen, and found that the plastic in the bearing area had
swollen and was binding. We sanded, cleaned, and lubricate the bearing
surface and the platen now turns freely. On reassembly we found that none
of the Control Characters like Line Feed or Bell would work in Local Mode. We
fiddled for quite a while, but did not find a problem. We speculated that
something got bent when it could not move the binding platen.

We found a bad SN7474 E13 on the M706 Teletype Receiver flip-chip from the
PDP-12. We will repair and test it next week.

We borrowed the M706 Teletype receiver from the PDP-8/I and connected the
Teletype to the PDP-12. We loaded and ran a toggle-in program that echos
the keyboard to the printer. We were a little surprised when everything in
the Teletype worked OK. We were even more surprised when the Teletype now
worked correctly in local mode.

We borrowed the console cable from the PDP-8/I and connected my laptop to
the PDP-12. The terminal emulator worked correctly and echoed characters to
the PDP-12 and back.

We toggled in the RIM loader and then loaded the LBAA BIN loader from my
laptop. We ran the BIN loader and loaded and ran the PDP-8/I Instruction
Test #1. It actually works OK!

We tried twice to load MAINDEC-8I-D02B-D Instruction Test #2, but failed
both times. Running that diagnostic and others will be the project for next
week.

Al Kossow posted LOTS of PDP-12 manuals to Bitsavers. One manual includes
the allowable ripple for the power supplies. They allow 3,000mV of ripple
on the -30V supply for the core memory, so I guess that the 180mV that we
measured two weeks ago is OK.

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474
> and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems. The ones in
> slots J33 and K30 were bad. Replacing them fixed the problem with the JMP
> instruction. We did some more testing with the toggle-in programs and found
> that ISZ cleared the AC. Replacing the M119 in slot H28 fixed that. All of
> the toggle-in tests pass, so the processor is substantially functional.
>
> Core memory in field 1 with addresses X5XX didn't work. We replaced the
> G221 in slot D10 to fix that.
>
> We tried the ASR33 Teletype that came with the system. The mechanics were
> sticky from not being used for 30 years, but we got most of it free and
> working. We could send characters to the Teletype, but could not receive
> anything. The M706 receiver failed in the board tester. The spare is also
> broken, so we need to fix both.
>



-- 
Michael Thompson

From spereira1952 at comcast.net  Sun May 31 12:15:51 2015
From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:15:51 -0400
Subject: Looking for a Northstar S-100 Double Density Controller
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1433091600.46602.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1433091600.46602.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <9B4D3301-3345-4BA8-976A-F274575A9622@comcast.net>

I'm looking for a Northstar double density floppy disk controller. The double density controller will be marked as MDS-ADx. I have seen pictures of this board marked as MDS-AD and MDS-AD3, but I'm not certain how many different versions there may be out there. Obviously, I would greatly prefer to know that the board is operational prior to shipping.

Please let me know if you might have a spare or unused board that you would part with for a reasonable price plus shipping.

Thanks!
--
Stephen M. Pereira
Bedford, NH  03110
KB1SXE



From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May 29 10:50:28 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 11:50:28 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXjcA5NhcUsLPPh_kRsOuvDE_j0QJmwWv8sNVsRzq3niA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't buy it :O Maybe just navigating around the operating system it's
true you won't see it balk too much, but once you run an app ... take
OmniWeb; it takes a few minutes to render my simple HTML 3.2 homepage on my
NeXTstation color slab, 040/25, 32 megs RAM ... the turbo color slab isn't
much faster ...

Contrast to a contemporary Mac i.e. a Quadra 950 or a Mac IIfx, they will
render the page faster and feel more responsive. I love the elegance and
design of the NeXT hardware and software package but no denying it was
pokey ... relative to contemporaries ... almost absolutely :O

NeXTstep is a sophisticated environment and it's hard work for an '040 ...

Maybe I feel it more because it's slinging 24 bpp at ~1280x1024! You have a
mono station?

NeXTstep's (err, Rhapsody's, err, Mac OS X's) performance was awful when
first ported to the PPC as well. I don't think they really got things
cleaned up good until 10.2, at least, maybe 10.3...

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 10:09 AM, Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com>
wrote:

>
> On May 28, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Can you even run Openstep on the NeXT proprietary hardware? The
> performance
> > must be awful?
>
> My NeXTstation 25mhz 68040 with 40 megs of RAM runs OPENSTEP 4.2 just
> fine. I never felt like it was laggy or anything. In fact, when I got OSX
> (aka OPENSTEP 5) running on a beige G3 tower for the first time, I couldn?t
> understand why it was so absolutely unusable, since the performance of
> OPENSTEP 4 on my NeXT was very snappy.
>
> --
> Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
> Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
>
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May 29 13:13:36 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:13:36 -0400
Subject: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
In-Reply-To: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOrcWjyAz0BNY1i+D1themzqX=UApddO3En66DKDC4FJwSPqow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkV4F=FazCxFJJVD=RyJJOHmVePrziD=eZ3drRs=cFrvgA@mail.gmail.com>

I've got to go with Alexandre on this, look for an HP 16500B or 16500C or
if you want something smaller, an HP 166x or 1670x. You should be able to
find a nice one in good shape with all the pod cables, break-outs,
"grippies" ... a "full backpack" for a few hundred dollars or less.

An HP 165x in nice working shape with all accessories might be worth about
cost of shipping to me, that's it; I wouldn't pay much for it and I
wouldn't mess with anything much older ...

Just for reference, I paid exactly $99 for my HP 1662 and it was in great
shape with all accessories; the front panel rotary selector was broken off
but it came with an HP-HIL mouse so no biggie...

I assembled my working 16500B out of two 16500B units, one basically dead
but full of cards and accessories, the other, an empty chassis in great
condition with no cards or accessories. I think I paid $99 for each unit
and with a few little upgrades ... deep-memory LA card and a pattern
generator I have about $300 in it. That gives me 68 channels 1 MSa 100
state/500 timing logic analyzer, 16 channels 1 GHz timing-only
shallow-memory, a 50 MHz pattern generator with 12 data bits, 3 strobe, and
a two-channel 100 MHz DSO. Maybe I got a little lucky with that deal but
not impossible to replicate ... you can do similar for $300-500.

I've looked at the Tek analyzers of similar vintage to the HP 1660
series/HP 16500 and to me, they seem more limited and harder to use than
the HP analyzers, IMO ... while I love Tek for scopes and other
miscellaneous instruments, I think HP is king in logic analyzers ...

You will also find many many many completely obsolete and fairly limited
analyzers being sold for way more than they are worth ... don't waste your
time and money. You can get a nicer instrument than you might originally
think, for way less money than you may have originally considered. Logic
analyzers, I think you really need to know the various product lines very
well to get an outstanding deal ... keep the model numbers in mind and just
watch eBay ... shouldn't take long for something to turn up that will do
the job ... I see great deals on analyzers there on almost a weekly basis.

I think the logic analyzer is a great tool especially when playing around
with digital systems ... they can do things for you that you may have
thought impossible. Wish I had one on hand when I was doing my senior
design project for the BSEE! :O

Best,

Sean



On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> >> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> >
> >That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
> >TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
> >standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.
>
> I meant I'm not using any weird technology in *my* designs.  Sorry if that
> wasn't clear.  I'm not particularly concerned about what the LA is built
> from.
>
> KJ
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Fri May 29 14:14:43 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:14:43 -0400
Subject: Bitcoining on a 1401
In-Reply-To: <5567C40D.2040408@sydex.com>
References: <55674F61.1010900@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1505281058590.29511@shell.lmi.net>
 <556758DA.4030201@e-bbes.com> <5567ADEA.3010208@cimmeri.com>
 <5567C40D.2040408@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkWgrZxP7Wh6ThFDyAJvTaoakDgWPv21AGkzGSK8z5_-yA@mail.gmail.com>

That explains ... I've got a handful of miscellaneous SMS cards, actually,
that I got from my dad; he probably picked them up from some electronics
scrap back when he was in high school or when doing his undergrad probably
for the same reason as you may have done; to salvage parts from...
Professionally he has always done embedded design so he was never in a
scenario where he would have been servicing EDP equipment.

I noted the paragraph on ibm1401.info there discussing the gold contents of
the edge connectors with some amusement... that must explain why they've
all been lopped off of mine!

This whole thread turned out to be a bit of kismet for me; my dad told me
the cards had come from "some old IBM mainframe" but it was never clear to
me the exact type or age range on the equipment ... now I know they are SMS
cards!

I also noted they've got a database of SMS modules there on ibm1401.info
... I'm excited to look mine up when I've got a bit of free time this
weekend. Besides having the edge connectors lopped off of them by the
original scrapper, the cards I've got, my dad never got around to
harvesting parts from so they are fairly intact for identification purposes.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 05/28/2015 05:08 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>  Wow.  Are common machines now really *billions* of times faster??
>>
>
> From imb1401.info:
>
> Thus, the average time to add two 10-digit numbers is 40 cycles, or about
> a 2.2 kHz add rate. Adding two 20-digit numbers is 70 cycles, or an add
> rate of 1.2 kHz. Compare that to a modern superscalar microprocessor with a
> peak add rate of two 64-bit add instructions per cycle at 3-GigaHertz, or
> an add rate of 6 Ghz; the modern microprocessor is 6,000,000,000 / 1,000 =
> 6,000,000 times faster!
>
> So, no, not for the common ones of today.
>
> The surplus stores during the 1960s used to sell 1401-style SMS cards by
> the crateful.  I used to disassemble them for the transistors.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May 30 09:46:33 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 10:46:33 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <5568D055.1090401@oryx.us>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
 <5568C188.5030704@telegraphics.com.au> <5568D055.1090401@oryx.us>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkXRRGOPJqq=e1Wp7BQ0N8Lw5JuO7YNG9Ufnan7kpXxZyA@mail.gmail.com>

I swear, this is the only place in the world where I have seen the group
consensus shake out that NeXTstep was fast and responsive on the NeXT '040
hardware :O

I am about to go downstairs and benchmark my Color Slab vs my Quadra 800
and make sure I'm not going nuts, LOL.

Best,

Sean


On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:

> Jumping in on the bandwagon.
>
> A few years back, I had a friend loan me his NeXT slab for about a year.
> 25 Mhz CPU.  Everything pretty much stock.
>
> My observation of the default GUI was it was pretty darn quick, not even
> taking into account the hardware it was running on.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> On 05/29/15 02:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>
>>>
>> My impression is the same - the UI on my Cube, slabs, is quite zippy. I
>> think
>> that hardware blitter helps...
>>
>> --Toby
>>
>>
>>

From scaron at umich.edu  Sat May 30 10:41:37 2015
From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2015 11:41:37 -0400
Subject: Wanted: stand for NeXT monitor
In-Reply-To: <CAA43vkXRRGOPJqq=e1Wp7BQ0N8Lw5JuO7YNG9Ufnan7kpXxZyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7F9F0B40-D3C8-489C-9DF3-B18D22866372@yahoo.com>
 <CAMX3xPax01YE_FBfm1Ujf6K1rrEDHLOPrdCT_hjWMHWJogvcoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA43vkWUWHTnXG7XpVP2sbBJf-JsYvBHpRtmPhuWj=fvQGQ69Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E88B7C54-709D-4F6C-BA94-8A9C36A5BDAC@fozztexx.com>
 <5568C188.5030704@telegraphics.com.au> <5568D055.1090401@oryx.us>
 <CAA43vkXRRGOPJqq=e1Wp7BQ0N8Lw5JuO7YNG9Ufnan7kpXxZyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA43vkVVtkniMNEfrF_=vKXyOnkidDRbY8+a9yM-pSepenWUvg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, numbers don't lie; I guess I just remember the NeXT as a slower
machine because I was always playing with it side by side with SGIs or
something :O It actually stacks up pretty well, here's the results of my
rough little morning benchmark if anyone wants to know :O

NeXT config was: Color Slab, 040/25, 32 MB RAM, NeXTstep 3.3, 5400 RPM
drive, 24 bit color, 1280x1024
Mac config was: Quadra 800, 040/33, 20 MB RAM, Mac OS 7.5.3, 5400 RPM
drive, 16-bit color, 800x600

Not totally a fair contest since my Q800 can't sling video quite like my
NeXT can, however, the two configurations aren't totally out of line with
one another ... I measured:

Boot-up time:
NeXTstation Color - 1:24
Quadra 800 - 1:35 (although many extensions are installed - could likely be
reduced 10-20 seconds)

Browser launch time:
NeXTstation Color - ~0:22 (OmniWeb)
Quadra 800 - ~0:25 (Netscape Navigator 3.x)

Page load and render, my personal main page:
NeXTstation Color - ~0:15 (OmniWeb)
Quadra 800 - ~0:12 (Netscape Navigator 3.x)

Page load and render, my Definity PBX at home page (fairly long text)
NeXTstation Color - ~0:43 (OmniWeb)
Quadra 800 - ~0:30 (Netscape Navigator 3.x)

Page load and render, my Nortel PBX at home page (a little bigger yet)
NeXTstation Color - ~0:57
Quadra 800 - ~0:30

So the color Slab is actually about neck and neck with the Quadra 800...
considering it's around 25% less clock rate and is moving a lot more video
data than the Quadra, it actually keeps up pretty well. The Quadra does a
little better rendering "larger" pages but that's just the test I chose and
we all know OmniWeb isn't the fastest thing in the world ... Not so bad
after all. I guess this vindicates the NeXT :O It really isn't any slower
than a contemporary Mac and can in fact be slightly quicker in some cases.

Best,

Sean


On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote:

> I swear, this is the only place in the world where I have seen the group
> consensus shake out that NeXTstep was fast and responsive on the NeXT '040
> hardware :O
>
> I am about to go downstairs and benchmark my Color Slab vs my Quadra 800
> and make sure I'm not going nuts, LOL.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Jerry Kemp <other at oryx.us> wrote:
>
>> Jumping in on the bandwagon.
>>
>> A few years back, I had a friend loan me his NeXT slab for about a year.
>> 25 Mhz CPU.  Everything pretty much stock.
>>
>> My observation of the default GUI was it was pretty darn quick, not even
>> taking into account the hardware it was running on.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/29/15 02:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> My impression is the same - the UI on my Cube, slabs, is quite zippy. I
>>> think
>>> that hardware blitter helps...
>>>
>>> --Toby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>